Subj: Traveller-digest V1999 #1414
Date: 11/30/99 6:52:13 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)
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Traveller-digest Tuesday, November 30 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 1414
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Low TL Medicines (was: Re: Rule of man coin)
Re: Low TL Medicines (was: Re: Rule of man coin)
Re: Low TL Medicines
Re: Youth and Skill....
Re: Eris' Computers
Re: early christian writings and roman rumors
Re: Police ranks
Re: Bifrost-class Solar Shuttle (GTL9)
Re: Latin pronounciation (was Re: Rule of man coin)
Re: Traveller-like fiction
Re: early christian writings and roman rumors
Re: Sci fi films
Re: Traveller-like fiction
YNYBPTMTW (was re: LEO's)
re: early christian writings and roman rumors
re: early christian writings and roman rumors
Re: early christian writings and roman rumors
Re: LEO's
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 23:50:41 -0600
From: Black ICE
Subject: Low TL Medicines (was: Re: Rule of man coin)
<>
>
> >> Eris,
> >> who's father used alum on mouth ulcers......and who's
> >> grandmother insisted on dosing him with paragaric whenever he
> >> came down with a bad cold. Do you *know* exactly what was in
> >> paragaric?
>
> >If you're referring to "paregoric", then yes.
>
> I am...
>
> >~imagining a cold-stricken seven-year-old Eris on opiates mixed with
> >alcohol~
>
> ...and I certainly felt *no* pain. Grandmom had to look after me
> while my parents were at work, so in the morning she'd "dose me"
> with a teaspoon and I was "no trouble" for the whole day.
Bringing this back to Traveller:
At least here on Terra, advances in medicines have often been aimed at
reducing the side-effects of otherwise-effective drugs. Thus, paregoric
(which was often prescribed to relieve diarrhea, as opiates tend to
cause constipation) was replaced by compounds which also relieved
diarrhea, without the narcotic side-effects of paregoric. Similarly,
there has been a trend in antihistamines toward compounds that are less
likely to cause drowsiness. Presumably, as a general rule, as TL
increases, drug side-effects decrease.
The question then become:
To what extent (if any) does the Imperium regulate the interstellar
transport of medicinal compounds between worlds, if said compounds are
legal on the world of origin? If there is no formal Imperial regulation
of such compounds, does the Imperium at least attempt to help worlds
maintain their own regulations on importation of medicinal compounds?
In other words, are PCs who purchase laudanum on a TL-4 world subject to
Imperial sanctions if they sell said laudanum on a TL-13 world that
strictly regulates opiates?
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 01:05:13 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans"
Subject: Re: Low TL Medicines (was: Re: Rule of man coin)
From: Black ICE
>The question then become:
>
>To what extent (if any) does the Imperium regulate the interstellar
>transport of medicinal compounds between worlds, if said compounds are
>legal on the world of origin? If there is no formal Imperial regulation
>of such compounds, does the Imperium at least attempt to help worlds
>maintain their own regulations on importation of medicinal compounds?
I would suspect that the Imperium might have to involve itself in this sort
of scenario. Introduction of addictive drugs into a society can have grave
economic consequences. Even the distant Imperium doesn't want an industrial
world to be turned into a crack den. Historically, this tactic was used
deliberately by the British during the Opium Wars. On a smaller scale, the
introduction of alcohol to the American Indians was devastating.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 16:52:12 +1000
From: "The Roc"
Subject: Re: Low TL Medicines
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Black ICE
To:
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 3:50 PM
Subject: Low TL Medicines (was: Re: Rule of man coin)
>
> In other words, are PCs who purchase laudanum on a TL-4 world subject to
> Imperial sanctions if they sell said laudanum on a TL-13 world that
> strictly regulates opiates?
>
Because of real world examples, I'd have to go with "yes." Here in
Australia for example, there are drugs commonly found in the U.S., U.K., and
Europe for such things as diverse as impotence to cancer related
pain-relief, that are not "approved" by the AMA (the Australian Medical
Association). This means that such drugs cannot be imported (or
manufactured here) for sale here. I also believe you cannot take
paracetamol into Turkey and Middle Eastern countries, just as the
un-approved drugs cannot be brought legally into Australia?
I would say that a whole swag of drugs and alcohols are banned from various
worlds for as many different reasons? Some of the un-approved drugs here,
have been on sale in other countries for decades and are not approved for
such reasons as "not been proved," "are snake oils," or "dangerous unto
themselves" (for a long time here, you couldn't get sunscreen with and spf
of more than 15, as it was said the extra chemicals to obtain such ratings,
were more harmful to the user than the added protection factor was worth...
it was several years for spf15+'ess with less harmful chemicals to go on the
shelves here.) Similar reasons may apply for bans in other countries (and
in Traveller, on other worlds), plus with the addition of social and
religious reasons...?
- -- The Roc
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 1999 22:54:18 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman"
Subject: Re: Youth and Skill....
>Will Hostman wrote:
>> Keep in mind most serious musician types really do
>> dedicate about 2/3rds or
>> more of their high-school free time to practice.
>> Most are good by high
>> school.
>
>Which brings up something I've been thinking of... I
>recently read an article where some people studied
>what makes a good sportsperson, was it genetic, etc...
>and they found the most common predictor of
>national-level performance was plain old practice.
>That level is reached by about 10,000 hours of
>training, usually 20 hours a week over 10 years
>(sounds a lot, but as Will said, many can reach this
>quite early.) I've a sense the same would be true for
>musicians and other artists. The article also said
>that sometimes the person was a master of their sport,
>but had less training, but it was usually found they'd
>trained elsewhere in other sports, eg a famous
>pole-vaulter in Australia began as a gymnast...
>
this whole issue brings up the game design issue of Stats vs Skills in
resolving actions. Musicians, as a general rule, require a good bit of
manual dexterity, a high level of intellectual capability, a lot of
discipline, plus a number of distinct skills. Reading music is nearly
essential for serious musicians. (No offense here, but most rock and roll
is VERY musically simple.) A knowledge of one's instrument is also
essential. Ability to memorize, also useful (essential for solists and
vocalists). Ability to hear and relate to other musicians in the ensemble.
Ability to follow the conductor and read the music.
Skill with an instrument is a rote-learned series of associations of notes
to fingerings for most instrumentalists. On the stringed instruments, there
are several sets of fingerings per note, and are state-dependant upon arm
position (at least if you're going to make it). After a few years it
becomes reflexive: see the note, and if hand is in 1st position, use finger
X on string y; if in 4th position, yse finger V on String W.
When performing, most performers have at least partially memorized the
pieces (especially the page turns), and will alternate rapidly between the
music and the conductor. Vocalists typically are required to memorize their
whole program, usually by rote, and sometimes must also memorize dance
steps as well.
Writing music is little more than creating a melody, and plugging in
whichever set of musical formulae you choose to use. Traditional classical
music is remarkably formulaic. Given the Bass and Soprano lines of a Bach
chorale, the average colege sophomore in a music program SHOULD be giving
you the exact same thing as Bach used. Soliere and even Motzart used the
same formula. Paul McCartney's music uses it, too... but not as tightly.
>So what skill level does this correspond to in Trav?
>I'm imagining Level 6 for T4...
using t4 levels:
To be honest, most "Prodigies" should be about skill 4 (Professional) by
start of career (age 17/18), and gain probably about 1 level per two years
in their primary focus, plus pick up additional foci at the rate of 1 per
term. (The few I've met who followed it on really aren't much better
rounded than they were in Junior High School... but they are really
impressive with their specialty).
>Sorry to bring up the whole "realism" question, I'm
>just trying to associate real skill levels with game
>mechanics ones...
If you want realistic music skill rules, here's a patch for ANY edition
(except GT):
The music skill level is a representation of the overall level of musical
expertise of the character. To represent more realistically the wide range
of capabilities possible with similar levels of training, let us define
some sub-skills. Sub-skills do not count towards skill limits in CT/MT, but
the general music training level does.
The Sub-Skills:
Strings - Viol Family
Strings - Lute Family
Strings - Harp Family
Percussion (tuned)
Brass
Woodwinds
Keyboards
Singing
Music Theory
Conducting
Interpretation
Each level of General Music Skill gives you two levels of subskills. You
may take any combination. When resolving tasks, use the subskill level,
rather than the general skill level. In general, the first level will be
put into the interpretation and chosen instument subskills.
General Music at level (CT/MT 2, TNE/T4 3) provides level 0 in all
subskills, simply due to eventual exposure.
A note on the strings subskills: The Viol family includes the Viols, plus
the modern descendants known as the (double or String) Bass, the
(Violin-)chello, the Viola, and the Violin. All viols are typically played
with a bow drawn across the strings. The Lute family includes Guitars,
Mandolins, and Balilaikas, and are generally played by strumming or
plucking. Both the Lute and Viol families have a few strings, whose tone is
changed by pressing the string down against a neck. The Harp family is
generally comprised of instruments with a wide number of strings, and each
playable note is a separate string (although most modern concert harps have
foot pedals which shift a series of strings up in pitch by a small
ammount). All three strings skill serve as level 1 in the other strings
subskills if held at level 2+, level-0 if held at level one.
A few notes on the "Non-performing" skills:
Music Theory is writing music. Generally, each level should include one
style of music whose formulae are known, as well as a general knowledge of
how to write, transpose, arrange, and edit written music.
Interpretation is the ability to read music and to get more than just
mechanical notes from written music. It is generally not used much except
by soloists and conductors, but a basic knowledge is essential to a good
performance. If this subskill is not posessed, any solistic work should be
one level more difficult.
Conducting is the ability to get a group of performers to perform based
upon the conductor's interpretation of the music. It also includes knowing
how to arrange musicians themselves for best effect.
[Jeff, if you want, go right ahead and move to FT]
William F. Hostman | "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click
interface!"
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-
533
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com
ICQ:14640742 AIM:AKAramis ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:26:40 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn"
Subject: Re: Eris' Computers
On 29 Nov 99, at 11:29, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> In any case the larger the ship the greater the requirements for CPU and
> memory capacity. Each thing the computer is keeping track of will require
> at least a little memory, and the more things you keep track of the more
> CPU horsepower it will take to track everything.
My point was that many of these things don't go up in volume much with
increasing capacity, as most of the volume is for cooling systems,
maintenance access and user interfaces - things that won't grow in size
very quickly with increasing computer power. However the cost will
increase quite quickly.
- --
Rupert Boleyn
Wellington, New Zealand
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:20:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: early christian writings and roman rumors
In mail you write:
> usually presents the players with a situation that must be escaped,
> as it can't be resolved. Unless there's something godlike about the
> PC's,
Or they are playing the Star Trek Role Playing game :-)
> they're generally not going to solve in a week what a planetful of
> intelligent (though biased) people haven't been able to solve in
> centuries.
That was the *good* thing about a few of the original Trek episodes.
They actually had a few where the aliens *didn't* fall all over each
other to immediately accept advice from these "aliens" (the crew) that
was contrary to centuries of the native culture. "Let That Be Your Last
Battlefield", for example.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:27:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Police ranks
In mail you write:
>>From: "Terry Carlino"
>
>>>So where does the rural sheriff and his deputy fit
> in ?
>
>>The sheriff is an elected position, typically the
>>highest in a county(or parish). Small sheriff
>
> Before we get too far into Yanks-and-Brits in Space,
> let's remember that law enforcement can occur under a
> large variety of paradigms. In rural areas today, for
> example, law enforcement may be in the hands of a
> locally-based person or organization (sheriff,
> headman, constable), or of a representative of the
> central government (like a U.S. Marshall), or of the
> military, or of paramilitary organizations (and not
> just death squads). To what extent can character
> generation give different flavors to these
> experiences?
Just for the hell of it, here's a different take on it.
Originally, "sheriff" was "shire reeve". That is, he was the "reeve"
(an office appointed by the Crown) of a "shire" (fair sized geographic
area, not under the direct control of a noble).
So, is this "sheriff" a US style elected enforcement "officer" or a
Olde England style appointed by higher nobility enforcement officer?
Note that in both cases they are responsible for "law enforcement" over
a large area (county/shire). But the US style is responsible to the
*people* (or at least to the local government of the area). But the
*appointed* variety is responsible to a high noble first, with the
locals only being a consideration to the extent that the law and the
noble say they are.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 03:00:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Bifrost-class Solar Shuttle (GTL9)
In mail you write:
> I was fiddling around, trying to get decent acceleration for a GTL9 ship,
> whne I realized that the GURPS Space light sails might work. Plugging the
> numbers in (and assuming no silly mistakes on my part), I came up with a
> relatively fast shuttle for short-haul trips.
> Bifrost-class Solar Shuttle (GTL9)
> 10 USL, DR 100, Cockpit, 1 Light Sail, 4 Passenger Couches, 4.5 Cargo
>
> Statistics: EMass 43.4 tonnes, LMass 63.8 tonnes, Cost: 28.5 MCr, HP:
> 2,631, Size Mod: +6
>
> Performance: Accel: 2.3 G (3.3 G empty, 1.0 G overloaded)
There's something *seriously* wrong here. Light sails, without laser
boosts or the like *can't* do even *1* g. 1/10th or even 1/100th g is
more like light sail performance. They are *not* high accel!
> 1 light sail (145.1 tonnes thrust) 0.5 22.7 25.0 - -
And just how *big* is this sail? And what does *it* mass? I bet you
forgot to add the mass of the sail to the mass of the ship before
calculating acceleration.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 02:15:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Latin pronounciation (was Re: Rule of man coin)
In mail you write:
> Latin was a living language for a long time, so it's not surprising that
> there are different ways to pronounce it. My imperfect understanding is
> as follows: Classical Latin was spoken a very long time ago, like
> before 0 CE. Vulgar Latin and Church Latin are the more recent use, and
> are pronounced somewhat like Italian. Legal Latin differs from country
> to country, and only vaguely resembles Classical or Vulgar Latin (that
> is certainly the case in English). Italian is known to some people as
> Latin for regular people to use.
>
> --Glenn
>
>
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 00:11:17 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn"
Subject: Re: Traveller-like fiction
On 29 Nov 99, at 19:58, Jory Earl wrote:
> What kills me is I USED to have the complete series..:( I think I still
> have 1 or 2. ___________________________________________________________
I can see how that would bother you. I was actually quite lucky - I had
a couple, and then a whole lot turned up in a second hand store. I
think someone may have ditched their collection. Now if only someone
else with all the other ones (along with assorted other book, of
course) would too...
- --
Rupert Boleyn
Wellington, New Zealand
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:30:32 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino"
Subject: Re: early christian writings and roman rumors
>>> May I recommend "The Unauthorized Version" by Robin Lane Fox? A look at
>>> the bible as history, by a good historian.
>Or "Surspised By Joy", by C.S. Lewis, a Sci-Fi writer and infamous atheist.
>- -Crusty
C.S. Lewis is one of the foremost Christian apologist of this century. His
stories are seeped in Christian allegory and morality. For example in the
Chronicles of Narnia the lion Aslan is a direct representative of Jesus
Christ. (And yeas that's probably where the name Aslan came from for the
Traveller race.)
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 03:07:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sci fi films
In mail you write:
> Kyle adds:
> But one Connery can be proud of is "Outland", set on a
> mining colony on Io where he's Sheriff.
No. He's a US Marshall. Big difference. Both are law enforcement, but
Sherriffs (US type) are elected and paid for *locally*. The type of US
Marshall Connery plays is supplied by a central government for a town
(or mining camp, back in the old west *and* in Outland) that doesn't
have its own police or sherriff.
> I liked it for
> the dull, industrial feel of it, which I think more
> accurately represents what space travel is likely to
> look like and be like for the people doing it: more
> that than the toothpaste-tube cleanliness of Star Trek
> or Star Wars.
Starwars was famous for the *grunge* on all the privately owned ships,
and places like Mos Eiseley.
Star Fleet ships look good because these people are professionals, and
they *want* to be there. And in the Academy, they problably got
demerits for untidy rooms. :-)
With civilian ships, you'll see a lot less "spic and span", but most of
the time you'll see *neat*. Even when things are greasy and grimy. Why?
Because improperly stowed gear onbard a ship can *kill* you. And even
if it's "merely" lightweight personal possessions in your cabin, you'll
stow them or fasten them down securely so *they* don't get damaged.
*Any* experienced seaman is going to take one look at a sloppy ship and
decide that he's got better (and less painful or quicker) ways of
committing suicide than shipping with people who leave gear unstowed,
or who don't keep the things that *need* to be clean clean.
The same should go for spacemen. Even moreso. On a habitable planet, if
things stink, it's a nuisance. In space, if things stink it's either
fault life support, or somebody not cleaning up stuff that might
compromise life support later. After all the "scrubbers" are supposed
to be removing trace chemicals, many of which are toxic *long* before
you can smell them. So if you can smell "stinks", even if they are
harmless, it means the filters aren't working. And what may be in the
air that you *can't* smell?
When you get to things like living quaters in a sealed environment
(like the "camp" in Ooutland) you'll find folks a lot more casual. But
either there will be frequent accidents or loss of life from
carelessness, or there will be *enforced* standards for "neat" in areas
where it matters (basicly anyplace where "clutter" or "dirt/filth"
could cause an accident kills/injures folks *other* than the person
responsibly for the "junk" or "dirt").
Also, the "old-timers" will be *really* leery of anybody who hasn't
learned what rules are *important*. I'm reminded of Belters in Niven's
universe (and a few others). Newbies (immigrants, or kids just getting
old enough to go out on their own) are *required* to complete a "term"
running a one-man prospecting ship before they can work at *anything*
except clerical stuff or very, *very* "non-critical" jobs.
Why? Because until they've proved that they can follow rules and be
*careful* enough to keep *themselves* alive, they aren't going to be
allowed into a situation where they can take somebody else with them
when they make a mistake.
In spite of training, *most* kids/immigrants *don't* live thru this
term. The kids haven't learned they aren't immortal yet. The adults
from habitable planets haven't learned that in space *any* mistake is
going to be fatal. They aren't "paranoid" enough about safety checks
and the like.
Spacers from belts or other "artificial environment" worlds are going
to be *real* sticklers for details that matter. And tend to be *real*
suspicious of folks from places where you can walk around on the
surface without artificial aids. At least until they've "proven"
themselves.
Y'know, that ought to be a "world classification" like Non-industrial"
or "Agricultural". Say, "habitable", "marginal", "artifical". With the
"habitable" types and the "artifical" types *really* not understanding
each other. The marginals won't take things for granted, the way the
habitables do, but they aren't as paranoid as the artificals. (after
all, on a marginal world, forgetting (say) your filter mask may
"merely" put you in the hospital.
> Reminds me of that great scene in "Armageddon" where
> the Russian cosmonaut claims he can fix the American
> equipment, they say, "No, it's American components,
> you won't know how to use them." He barges in and
> starts hitting the equipment: "American components
> (bash!) Russian components (bash!) all (bash!) made in
> (bash) Taiwan! (bash! machine starts up again)" Sounds
> right to me.
A semi-rational attitude. If you *need* the equipment, it's not
working, and you don't have "proper" tools or instructions "bashing" it
(not hard enough to break it, but hard enough to jostle loose
connections and stuck valves) *is* a reasonable response. If you *do*
have tools, manuals and parts, you go by the book (unless you've
learned the book is wrong,, or that 90% of the time the problem is a
bit of corrosion on a connector. Then a "bash" may be the "right" fix
again. :-)
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:58:39 -0500
From: "Jory Earl"
Subject: Re: Traveller-like fiction
Well if I ever get back to Vancouver, WA..:) I know which store I sold them
to. :)
___________________________________________________________
J-Man
ICQ# 2843475
New Hampshire - U.S.A.
Email : j-man@iname.com
Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Rupert Boleyn"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, November 30, 1999 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: Traveller-like fiction
> On 29 Nov 99, at 19:58, Jory Earl wrote:
>
> > What kills me is I USED to have the complete series..:( I think I still
> > have 1 or 2. ___________________________________________________________
>
> I can see how that would bother you. I was actually quite lucky - I had
> a couple, and then a whole lot turned up in a second hand store. I
> think someone may have ditched their collection. Now if only someone
> else with all the other ones (along with assorted other book, of
> course) would too...
>
>
>
>
> --
> Rupert Boleyn
> Wellington, New Zealand
>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 08:53:28 -0500
From: Walter Smith
Subject: YNYBPTMTW (was re: LEO's)
You know you've been playing too much Traveller when:
You see the message header "LEO", and the first thing you think is,
"Well, it doesn't have to be EARTH orbit..."
Walt Smith
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:04:15 -0500
From: Walter Smith
Subject: re: early christian writings and roman rumors
Luther Martin wrote, on whether PC's can solve a social problem
themselves that a planetfull of people haven't solved in centuries:
>>>>>>>>
Then why do companies love to hire consultants (I was one until about
three weeks ago.)?
>>>>>>>>>
I doubt the companies that hire you have been working for centuries on
their latest business problem.
A consultant brings a valuable, or even unique set of skills and knowledge
to a company. In the same vein, it may be concievable that a band of
interstellar PC's could bring new information or a previously unheard-of
point of view to a divided culture, allowing the different groups in the
culture to find new understanding and live in harmony. However, if this
fracticious planet has been in interstellar contact for a while, the PC's
are really going to have to work to come up with answers the people
haven't been exposed to yet, or answers they haven't thought of
already themselves.
Of course, you might have a PC on board with CT Liaison-8 skill...
Walt Smith
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:28:51 -0500
From: Walter Smith
Subject: re: early christian writings and roman rumors
Chris Seamans wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
Not entirely true. In point of fact, for about the last two centuries
theologians have been all over the map concerning whether or not the Bible
is accurate or truthful. The assumption that you're making is inaccurate. To
say that over the course of 200 years everyone who's had an interest in
studying the Bible was brainwashed before they got there is something of a
slander.
>>>>>>>>>
Bonus points to Chris for pushing the loaded term level from "biased" to
"brainwashed", with extra points for adding the "slander" label to
a fellow TMLer's opinion.
Without a personal belief that the Bible is a highly significant
document, you will not study it rigorously enough to produce any
insights sufficiently developed to be accepted by respected Bible
scholars as significant. The majority of people performing these studies
are of a religious bent, even if they are currently in a doubting or
skeptical phase.
How about this: the majority of those studying the Bible have a
spiritual bent, as those without one generally dismiss it out of hand.
With a spiritual bent - either for or against Chrisitianity - the Bible
has value, either as a basis for a belief system, or as a weapon
against belief systems (including Christianity). If spiritual matters
are unimportant, then the Bible is a historical and literary artifact,
more valuable as a source of indirect historical/social information
(as the Greek myths provide context to Mediterrenean cultures)
rather than for it's limited direct historical references.
Walt Smith
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 07:33:50 -0700
From: cos 90
Subject: Re: early christian writings and roman rumors
>> May I recommend "The Unauthorized Version" by Robin Lane Fox? A look at
>> the bible as history, by a good historian.
>
>Or "Surspised By Joy", by C.S. Lewis, a Sci-Fi writer and infamous atheist.
Or for a more academic treatment, "Asimov's Guide to the Bible" by Isaac
Asimov, another SF writer and famous athiest. :)
- -- g
Glenn St-Germain § Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
cos90@powersurfr.com § http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
"There is no longer any normal to be"
-- Gary Numan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:48:01 -0500
From: Ethan Henry
Subject: Re: LEO's
"William F. Hostman" wrote:
> (California also has a separate highway
> patrol, if I understand california correctly).
Hell yes! And you can watch them every morning
at 7 and 8 AM on TNT! (This is why I am always
late in the mornings when I'm on a business
trip in the US... every hotel has TNT)
Ponch and John are the best.
http://www.tnt-tv.com/action/chips/media/2.mov
ObTrav: The players, having landed dirt-side and taking
some R&R are pulled over for speeding by a "a carefree
cop with a devestating, lady-killing smile and an
easy-going (but not TOO easy-going) attitude" and his
partner...
- --
Ethan Henry egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group http://www.klg.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1414
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