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Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #244
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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 13 July 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 244

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: The Iridium Standard
         2. Re: The Iridium Standard
         3. Re: The Iridium Standard
         4. Re: Spanish Gold
         5. Re: Pop Culture in Trav (was Corn Dogs)
         6. Re: Pop Culture in Trav (was Corn Dogs)
         7. Good experience with IG...
         8. Re: The Iridium Standard
         9. Re: Spanish Gold
        10. Re: Starship Construction
        11. Re: Starships
        12. Re: The Iridium Standard
        13. Re: The Iridium Standard
        14. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #233
        15. Re: Corn Dogs
        16. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #232

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 19:07:33 -0800
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On 11 Jul 96 at 21:41, Charles Pratt spewed:

> 
> On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> 
> 
> I am interested in hearing about those ideas...I have a couple of my own
> at the moment.   It would seem that we are hashing out an environment in
> which the trader is no longer locked in to hauling bulk lug-nuts from
> world to world.
> 

Very, very true...

In an environment where communications are limited to the speed of 
the fastest ship...information is THE most valuable cargo...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:13:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On Thu, 11 Jul 1996, Charles Pratt wrote:

[Snipped: I talk about insider trading existing, and probably existing in 
the Imperium, and that not being a real problem.]

> This is what I was getting at in my earlier post...I imagine that this
> type of system would be much more fun to play.  After all, what's the fun
> in playing in a perfect environment.

Agreed! :)  

> Also, this presents a vast number of lucrative enterprises on worlds off
> of x-boat communications lines.  Look at all the information services we
> have today...For some price (in direct proportion to the speed with which
> the information is presented), one could subscribe to an offworld news
> provider.

Sounds reasonable.  

The question that comes to my mind now is, how far does the Imperium let 
this sort of stuff go?  I mean, they're pretty hands-off, but trade is 
their main concern.  Is it a total capitalistic society, where those who 
have special access (ie, being a member of senior management, or having 
enough money to buy information before it is made widely available) are 
allowed to use it to their advantage (and thus, to the disadvantage of 
others)?  

Or is the Imperium interested in at least attempting to create some 
semblance of a level playing field?

I think adventuring in a purely capitalistic environment would be 
interesting, to say the least. :)  But too it's too cyber-punkish for 
Traveller, IMO.

My supposition is that the Imperium treats economic matters similar to 
how it treats war between its' member worlds: certain abuses are 
off-limits, but other than that, anything goes.  

Does this sound reasonable?  Has there been anything published which 
clarifies the issue?

If we're going to assume an Imperial Rules of Trade, does anyone have any 
ideas as to what the rules would be?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 22:37:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> >Perhaps, in the Far Future, acquiring trading information prior to
> >its  public release, then trading based on that information, will be
> >illegal  as well.
> 
> It might be Joe, but that won't stop people from trying, and as you
> say most go uncaught.  OTOH, this isn't really "insider information." 

True, it's not.  I'm just trying to figure out at what point the Imperium 
will draw the line as to what is and is not legal, given the 
communications lag.  


> If you pick up the paper this morning and notice that Intel reports a
> drop in earnings, and you place a sell order with your broker you're
> perfectly legal in doing so..right?  Well, I don't *see* the paper
> until tomorrow afternoon, and when I place my sell order you've
> (contributed) caused the price to drop already.  So, can I sue you for
> my lost in value?  Can the government get you for insider trading?
> Nope, the information was available to everyone, if you happened to
> see it before me that's your good luck and my bad luck.

Right.  And if you lived far away from civilization, and were only able 
to have your copies of the Wall Street Journal delivered once a month, 
while I lived in NY city and received it every morning, there would be 
nothing wrong with my acting on the information I received before you did.

But how will the Imperium treat this issue?


> Now let's say you hear that Megacorp Mining has struck the motherlode
> here in the Aster belt, and you hop aboard your Jump 4 ship and hop
> over to Sucker III 4 parsecs away.  Arriving there you notice that
> Megacorp Mining is trading at 8cr/share, so you buy 50,000 shares.  A
> couple of weeks later the news of MM's good fortune reaches Sucker and
> the share price goes up to 12cr.  You sell out clearing a cool
> 200,000!  Was this illegal?  Unethical?  Maybe.  I'm sure the current
> US government would say it was, but I'm not so sure.  Personally, I
> think it's just plain smart trading. <g> I'm positive local exchanges
> (and governments) would find ways to blunt this type of thing though. 

The issue I see is that some governments (and lots o' not-so-wealthy people) 
take a dim view of those with wealth using the increased opportunities 
their wealth provides...to make more wealth.  Is the Imperium likely to 
agree with this?

I can tell you that MY Imperium wouldn't.  Free trade would rule the day 
every time.  

But the official Imperium?  I dunno.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:20:09 -0800
Subject: Re: Spanish Gold

On 12 Jul 96 at 17:07, Steve Charlton/Avalon Softwar spewed:

> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> >The ruination of the Spanish economy had more to do with a long
> >seccession of poor leaders, their support for the oppression and
> >expulsion of the Spanish jews, and their military mis-adventures all
> >around the world...IMO.
> 
> No, most of the blame was laid on the gold, or rather the distribution of the 
> gold.
> 

Then there was that little thing called the Royal Navy, which along 
with inclement weather, broke Spain's naval power...don't forget that 
little thing called the Spanish Inquisition...which set back Spain's 
culture when Britain, France, and other European countries were 
entering the Age of Enlightenment...

1588 was a red letter date in European history...it was the last time 
anybody in Europe had a colonial empire without at least the tacit 
acceptance of Britain, until the late 19th century.  When Britain assumed 
control of the seas, Spain's days as a colonial empire...

Your comments on the gold are very enlightening Steve...

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:20:09 -0800
Subject: Re: Pop Culture in Trav (was Corn Dogs)

On 12 Jul 96 at 10:24, Paul Walker spewed:

> being saved on CD-ROMs and other hi-tech medium, I don't think a knowledge
> of our culture would be too difficult to obtain.  Also remember that the RC

Problem is that there is 3600 years of culture in between and we see 
none of them.  There wouldn't be that many references to the culture 
of ONE nation, on a balkanized world, that frankly was a backwater 
world in the 20th century...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:20:10 -0800
Subject: Re: Pop Culture in Trav (was Corn Dogs)

On 12 Jul 96 at 19:49, Dragoness Eclectic spewed:

> Send this person back to school! 

Send this person to charm school...I make a simple remark to prove a 
point, and I get a lecture on Western civilization, not Pop Culture 
though, which is what we were discussing...

> William Shakespeare, almost all major composers (Bach, Beethoven, 
> Mozart, etc.), Canterbury Tales, the Arthur myth, the Grail Quest, 
> most folktales, Robin Hood, "Greensleeves", "Lives of the Noble 
> Greeks", "Lives of the Noble Romans", etc, etc, etc. 

Last I remember, none of these happened 150 years ago.  Far longer in 
all cases...   I was trying to recall (at the spur of the moment, I might add) 
what was happening a 150 years ago...

Questionable whether much of what you mention above is 
"Pop" or "Junk" Culture, in any case...If you think Shakespeare 
is junk culture, I may be gravely offended...especially since I acted 
in many of his plays... :-)

> The most significant bits of popular culture become 
> embedded in the background folklore of the culture, or  
> enduring works of Art & Literature. And I won't even begin 
> to mention religious culture; there are religious references 
> used today that date back thousands of years! 

Gee, this is all true as far as it goes, but do people quote things from 
comic strips, that happened 25 years ago?  Not all that often...  That 
was my point.  How many people quote lines from Homer's the Iliad...  
which BTW, would be about 1200 years younger than the age difference 
between TNE & 20th Century Earth...

We are fortunate to drink from the well spring of 500 years of 
historical progress...made possible by the discovery of Greek, Latin 
and other texts from an earlier period.  There has been no cultural upheaval 
to rival the Dark Ages in 500+ years.  When the Dark Ages did happen, 
we lost a massive amount of information relative to what has been found from 
the eras of Rome, Greece, etc...

In the Traveller Universe, there have been 2 dark ages Since 2000 
AD...1 of them lasted about 1-1/2 times as long as the Dark Ages...  
The other was a destruction of civilization (Virus) so complete, that 
it would make the Vandals and Huns look like a few grade school 
toughs...

And yet we're supposed to believe that Calvin and Hobbes, and Monty 
Python made it through all this intact...  Never mind that the  
published works may never have come within 12 parsecs of the Old 
Expanses...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:41:11 -0800
Subject: Good experience with IG...

Actually reading somebody else's comments about IG led me to 
remember an experience I had several weeks ago...

When IG first put up their website, I called up and placed an order 
for 2 of the hardbounds (1 to put away for posterity, 1 to use).  At 
the time I could only afford 2 of them, so I ordered 2.  Later on, I 
figured it would be nice to have a 3rd book to use, so about a month 
after placing the original order, I put in an order via the order 
form for a 3rd book...

About a week after I placed a second order, a woman whose name 
escapes me (receptionist, perhaps?) called me from IG.  I had placed 
my 1st order with her as well.  She was just calling back to make 
sure that I was wanting 3 total, and hadn't just inadvertently forgot 
about my first order...

As someone who has managed people in various sales and customer 
service environments for 15 years now, I appreciate anytime somebody 
shows that they care about their work enough to go an extra mile...

August is going to be a long time coming... ;-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:42:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> Very, very true...
>
> In an environment where communications are limited to the speed of
> the fastest ship...information is THE most valuable cargo...

Exactly...Has anyone given any thought to the myriad of private x-boat
knock offs that would almost certainly be prevalent in the Imperium?  Like
the Fed-Ex's and UPS's of the Traveller universe...

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:51:09 -0800
Subject: Re: Spanish Gold

On 12 Jul 96 at 21:20, Stuart L. Dollar spewed:

> On 12 Jul 96 at 17:07, Steve Charlton/Avalon Softwar spewed:
> 
> > Eris Reddoch wrote:
> > >The ruination of the Spanish economy had more to do with a long
> > >seccession of poor leaders, their support for the oppression and
> > >expulsion of the Spanish jews, and their military mis-adventures all
> > >around the world...IMO.
> > 
> > No, most of the blame was laid on the gold, or rather the distribution of the 
> > gold.
> > 
> 
> Then there was that little thing called the Royal Navy, which along 
> with inclement weather, broke Spain's naval power...don't forget that 
> little thing called the Spanish Inquisition...which set back Spain's 
> culture when Britain, France, and other European countries were 
> entering the Age of Enlightenment...
> 
> 1588 was a red letter date in European history...it was the last time 
> anybody in Europe had a colonial empire without at least the tacit 
> acceptance of Britain, until the late 19th century.  When Britain assumed 
> control of the seas, Spain's days as a colonial empire 

(Oops...forgot to finish the phrase)

I meant to say that "Spain's days as a colonial empire were 
numbered."
> 
> Your comments on the gold are very enlightening Steve...
> 
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 23:51:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Starship Construction

Well, I talked to my dad about the construction, price, and division
information I posted earlier.  He has been in the business for as long as I
can remember (almost).  He agreed with the numbers that I posted earlier,
but said they were more typrcal of a Barge than of a Ship.  You learn
something new every day.

So, discount all of what I posted earlier unless you are talking about a
barge.  Here is the breakdown for ships:
                
Retail Price:  100%
 Price Breakdown:
             Cost -  80% to 95%  (Avg: 85%)
  Profit/Overhead -  20% to  5%  (Avg: 15%)

   Cost Breakdown:
            Labor -  25% to 35%  (Avg: 30%)
         Material -  75% to 65%  (Avg: 70%)

Average Dollar value per Manhour:  $12.00 to $15.00 (Avg: $13.00)


    ******HELP!!!******


Using these numbers, I came to the conclusion that the Starships in
Traveller cost too much, or people don't make enough.  I than looked at the
100Td Scout and figured out how long it would take to construct one with the
World Tamers Economic Model.  I came up with a figure of 8.83 years for 100
workers.  This is an incredible amount of time.  I think the Starship costs
are broken!


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 23:51:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Starships

>From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
>Subject: Re: Starship construction (VERY LONG!!!)
>
>On Jul 12, 1996 10:24:47, 'Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>' wrote: 
 
All of my post maliciously deleted

>Man-hours is probably best.  Remember Liberty ships?  Check the 
>speed records in churning those out--but it was with the yards 
>working all three shifts and extra workers and war-time  
>mobilization. 

I agree with you here!  I Think that using man hours to determine
construction times is the best approach.  In our shipyard, we usually spend
3,000 to 4,000 manhours on an ongoing project a week.  This number rises as
delivery gets closer, and lowers in the early stages of construction.  In
the case of a rush job (like the liberty ships) many more manhours would be
spent, but there comes a point where adding anothe laborer is
counterproductive because he just gets in the way.


>The Liberty Ships give us a clue how fast it *can* be done, if 
>you have to.  Also, allow for advances in construction methods 
>over the years and tech levels... How long does it take Lockheed- 
>Martin to put together an external tank for the space shuttle? 

Sorry, Cynthia, but I have to disagree here.  The advancement in
construction methods is going to be paralelled by the advancement in
material.  I think these factors would just about eliminate any advantage or
detriment provided by either advance.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 21:59:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

> My supposition is that the Imperium treats economic matters similar to
> how it treats war between its' member worlds: certain abuses are
> off-limits, but other than that, anything goes.

That's my opinion of things Travelleresque.  It would be a monstrous job
to micro-manage trade within the Imperium.  IMHO, the Imperium would do
best to take the long shot on these matters.   They would have to prevent
the hugies (megacorps, etc.) from dominating the field, and at the same
time ensure that the small-time operations don't destroy the biggies.

As has been said before, the Imperium has neither the time nor the
resources to create a completely safe trade environment.  The Megacorps,
with their resources invested in a few fields would have far greater
capability to ensure the safety of their own tradeships, and the small
time players would have to be fast and SMART to survive.

I imagine a certain amount of pirate activity would be tolerated, perhaps
even endorsed (not publicly or directly, by any stretch of the
imagination) in order to keep the traders in check.  One must consider
that a huge trade megacorp has the potential to effectively supplant the
ruling power.  Something along the lines of: Gov't Official "We'd like you
to lower your outrageous prices, or we'll break up your
monopoly"...Megacorp "Ha.  You remember the Long Night?  You wouldn't want
THAT to happen again, would you?"   The Imperium would have vastly greater
control over the bit players.

> If we're going to assume an Imperial Rules of Trade, does anyone have any
> ideas as to what the rules would be?

Well, obviously, anything that subverts the ideals of the Imperium would
be straight out.

If the Imperium rulers were smart, the would RESERVE alot of rights to
interfere/regulate trade, and exersize those every once in a while (very
publicly) so everyone is quite sure who the sheriff in town is, but other
than that, be pretty hands off.

It would make PC-traders much more interesting if they not only had to
avoid the dark side, but also avoid getting their heads publicly chopped
off by the Imperium for doing something "untoward".

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 22:02:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On Fri, 12 Jul 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:
> The issue I see is that some governments (and lots o' not-so-wealthy people)
> take a dim view of those with wealth using the increased opportunities
> their wealth provides...to make more wealth.  Is the Imperium likely to
> agree with this?

Uhoh.  Star Trek universe coming on ("What do you mean you don't use money
any more???").  It would be _nice_ if all the wealthy Imperials (is that
what you call a citizen of the Imperium?) were philantropists and art
lovers...But I, for one, don't necessary want that kind of "nice".

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
"The gods do not protect fools. Fools are protected by more capable fools"
                                          -- Larry Niven, _Ringworld_


------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:14:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #233

John H Bogan Jr wrote:

>Of course, one problem with this is that the doctor was Aubaini,
>which is a waterworld, and the local diet would resemble
>Japanese cuisine far more than American. And whatever meat
>(if any) is in the dogs, it likely isn't any medium- to 
>large-land-animal, not enough land-area to support them.

Sushi every day, yum!!!  I'd get pretty bored of that after a while.
 
> Aubaini would be the *last* people in the Coalition to
> get disgusted at the idea of eating sea-slug-thingies.

I really think it was less what it was she was eating and more Newton's 
lurid descriptions of the animals lifecycle.

Derek Stanley

On the subject of the impending Royal Divorce:
- -Up Chuck and Di!!  (say it fast, you'll get it)  8)



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:02:17 -0700
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs

Paul Walker wrote:

>>"Nothing toxic, I assure you.  It is simply a variety of parastic
>>segmented worm, much like your terran leeches, batter-dipped and 
>>fried."


>Now that you mention this, I remember it.  Does it specifically state 
>that the worm is a corndog, or is that just implied?  I seem to remember 
>that H&I said that Hiver were herbivores.  I don't know how much 
>certainty of trust can be placed in the novels.  I enjoyed the novels as 
>books, but I found some things that I didn't think fit with the TNE 
>universe.

I'd say that line pretty much says that the worm is the corndog.  Jez, 
why don't they just ferment it in Mezcal and be done with it.

I can see hundreds of chanting Hiver Tech Students.

"EAT THE WORM! EAT THE WORM!"

Yuck!  I've never been one to place much trust in novels either, these 
though appear fairly accurate and they provide more information on a 
number of Coalition worlds than anything else we've seen.  Useful, neat 
and tidy info.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 1996 16:43:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #232

Paul Walker wrote:
> 
> >To paraphrase Jeff Goldblum from Jurasic Park.
> >
> >"You were so busy trying to figure out how to do it that no one bother to
> >stop and think whether they should be doing it at all."
> 
> I know this is way off topic, but I think this is one(probably second) of my
> all time favorite lines from a movie.  BTW, I think it applies incredibly
> well to Virus.
> 
> As a side note, those of you who have kids will appreciate my favorite line:
> 
> >From the mother in "Honey I blew up the Kid":
> 
> "There's one thing that every kid knows, dads mean fun, but momma means
> business!!"
> Let's not forget.

"You came in that?  You're braver than I thought."

That's my personal favorate.  8)

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #244
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