Subj:	TRAVELLER digest 282
Date:	95-05-11 19:15:57 EDT
From:	traveller@mpgn.com
To:	traveller@mpgn.com

From: traveller@mpgn.com
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			    TRAVELLER Digest 282

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) 
	by goldendj@deltanet.com (David J. Golden)
  2) Adventure Seed:  The Entrepeneur
	by pd82495@wapol.gov.au (Michael Bailey)
  3) Re: Launch Sites
	by patrick@cyberquest.com (Patrick R. LaBlanc)
  4) Shuttle, Station, SSTO, Equ
	by "KMCCARTHY" <KMCCARTHY@QMGATE.OSC.HQ.NASA.GOV>
  5) STOP
	by Marco Baratta <marcob@macs.EE.McGill.CA>
  6) Re: TRAVELLER Digest 281
	by "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>
  7) Saturn V and stuff
	by Mark Clark <markc@brahms.udel.edu>
  8) Re: TRAVELLER digest 281
	by aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 May 1995 19:19:12 -0700
From: goldendj@deltanet.com (David J. Golden)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Message-ID: <9505110220.AA15936@deltanet.com>

Bob Brown wrote
> Havn't we had the SDB debate before? Does this mean we'll soon be 
> seeing the Virus dabate rear it's ugly head? or is gun law next I 
> must make a log. I really don't want to have to go through 
> the Deneb debate again, this mailing list looked really good a few 
> weeks ago when we were placing scenario ideas etc. But now we have 
> this anal element arguing what? I for one don't want to know the in's 
> and out's of everything in the Universe, this is a game if you want 
> realism take a walk in the park.
> Bob.

        Gee, Bob, maybe not everyone's been around forever and seen every
topic discussed. Maybe there are even people who are different from you and
_enjoy_ discussing "realism." Myself, the only thing I _don't_ enjoy on the
TML are people whining that we're not discussing only what they're
interested in. You want to discuss scenario ideas, go right ahead. Post
some. I like scenario ideas. I also like ship designs, I found the rock
throwing thread interesting, and I'm enjoying the review of SDB feasibility.
Calling somebody "anal" doesn't benefit anything. You don't like what
somebody writes, don't read it. After all, you're not paying them to write.
When you do, you can dictate what they write. Until then, post what you're
interested in, and grant the same courtesy to others.

 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                     |         D.GOLDEN@genie.geis.com
  PGP Public Key available        |           goldendj@deltanet.com

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 14:59:40 -1600
From: pd82495@wapol.gov.au (Michael Bailey)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Adventure Seed:  The Entrepeneur
Message-ID: <9505110655.AA19727@phq1002.wapol.gov.au>

While stopping over on __________, a high population, high law-level world,
the characters are approached by a representative of a local banking concern
with a job that is 'on the edge of legality'.

Carac Sarandanis was a high flying entrepeneur worth billions of
credits...or so it seemed.  With the recent economic downturn, Sarandanis'
fortune has evaporated, leaving behind a huge debt and a number of very
shady looking business deals.  While the government was still investigating
the collapse of the Sarandanis group, Sarandanis himself quietly skipped the
planet.  His new residence does not have an extradition treaty with his old
homeworld, so the governmen't plans to press charges against Sarandanis have
come to naught.

The Fardan-Reeve Banking Corportation has other ideas.  Although resigned to
getting little of it's moeny back, it's somewhat vindictive board are
itching to see the wily Sarandinis 'pay'.  The bank will pay the PC's Cr
100000, plus a resonable amount of costs, to deliver Sarandanis to the
authorities here.  All they have to do is snatch him from his guarded
compound, smuggle him aboard their ship and present him to government
authorities at the starport.  Easy!

(with thanks to a certain resident of Majorca, and Andrew Denton)
Michael Bailey (pd82495@wapol.gov.au)

"...you mad-dog, shaven head, bottle boy freaks..."
                                      Marillion, "Berlin"



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 04:57:43 -0700
From: patrick@cyberquest.com (Patrick R. LaBlanc)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Launch Sites
Message-ID: <9505111156.AA22749@mailhost.cyberquest.com>

 The problem with equatorial launch sites for the good old USA is political
and economic.
  1) Political: The USA as THE 1st world power, has a perception problem
with the rest of the world. As such the only non-political goverment
enterprise that the US gov runs outside of it's borders is the US military.
This was more critical way back when we couldn't be seen as "imperialistic"
in the eyes of 3rd world western hemisphere (aka the little americas),
otherwise they would all run to the heathen commies. The Europeans have
hundreds of years of imperialistic experience and are not at all shy about
setting up shop in Africa.
  2) Economic: The congress of the United States in it's infinite lack of
wisdom, has no idea what fiscal responsibility is. However it is eminatley
capable of pulling the wool over the eyes of the public. Therefore we buy
american for the dubious good of americans, hence all major launch
facilities are on US soil, regardless of there utility.

these are just 2 of the many thousands of miniscule and nitpicking reasons
the politicos through out to the lapping dogs of the Liberal Media Elite...

PS:  ... Illuminati anyone? ...



****************************************************************************
Patrick R. LaBlanc         | Design Engineer: 3D CAD/CAE/CAM     | \__/  \_
4038B 128th Ave. SE, #166  | Artemis Pacific Northwest Chapter   |_/  \__/
Bellevue, WA 98006         | Amateur:  Programmer/ Computer Anim.| \__/  \_
patrick@cyberquest.com     | Audio/ Visual Production/ Futurist  |_/  \__/
****************************************************************************



------------------------------

Date: 11 May 1995 08:19:56 -0500
From: "KMCCARTHY" <KMCCARTHY@QMGATE.OSC.HQ.NASA.GOV>
To: "New TML Broadcast" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Shuttle, Station, SSTO, Equ
Message-ID: <n1411941898.91998@QMGATE.OSC.HQ.NASA.GOV>

                       Subject:                               Time:8:04 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          Shuttle, Station, SSTO, Equator...       Date:5/11/95

Thor Christensen said:

>For the Space Station to ever get developed we are going to need
>something along the lines of Saturn again, or Energia.  The shuttle is
>designed for re-entry from orbit, a useful tool if you have already
>established yourself in orbit.  

THE LAST THING WE NEED TO DO IS ANOTHER REDESIGN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ISSA
elements are now sized for Shuttle or current ELV launches.  Switching to a
"new" Heavy ELV would entail another redesign which NASA, and the partners
can
not afford from either a $ or schedule sense PLUS design costs for a Possible
"Saturn VI."  I (ME ONLY, NOT ANYONE ELSE) think that we either make the
current design work or face station cancellation.

> Other vehicles are now on the drawing board, but none (to my knowledge)
>seek to address this problem.
>I know that there are some NASA types on this newsletter - any other >word?

The DC-X is a flying test bed for a SSTO.  NASA is funding reusable X-craft. 
See WWW: 
http://gargravarr.cc.utexas.edu/delta-clipper/title.htm

>Also, by placing the lauch site at the equator (like the European Space
>Agency in Guyana) you gain 10-15% in the mass that you can effectively
 >get into orbit.  Why haven't we built nearer the equator?  

Because there is no US territory close to the equator and we already have a
multibillion dollar investment in KSC.

>Should Traveller maps reflect this reality?

It would only matter in Traveller for TL 5-8 worlds or TL 5-8  nations on
balkinized worlds.  At TL 9 who cares?

Kevin (not speaking for NASA)




------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 08:41:49 -0400
From: Marco Baratta <marcob@macs.EE.McGill.CA>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: STOP
Message-ID: <199505111241.IAA27467@finnegan.EE.McGill.CA>

Would you please stop sending me the traveller mail!!!!!!
I have tried to stop this for numerous times now!!!
Stop!!!

				Marco

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 09:48:37 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER Digest 281
Message-ID: <sfb1dd4d.081@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>

Bob Brown writes regarding FHD (Frequently Held Debates):

>Haven't we had the SDB debate before? Does this mean we'll soon be
>seeing the Virus dabate rear it's ugly head? or is gun law next I  must
>make a log.

   Actually you may be on to something.  I'm wondering if it would be
possible to set up a TML FAQ document some place.  That way some
poor naive person will know what the sore topics are around here and
won't restart old wars with a perfectly innocent question.

   Stopping debate completely about certain topics (even if they have
been talked to death)?  I'd rather not.  Limiting speech limits ideas,
and if this forum has one thing going for it, it is that is one of the most
diverse, free and open discussion areas regarding Traveller in the
world.  I'd like to keep it that way.

>I for one don't want to know the in's  and out's of everything in the
>Universe, this is a game if you want  realism take a walk in the park.

   One man's anal is another man's sore point (a terrible pun that I will
retract....eventually).  Drink decaf.  Traveller as a game has always
attracted a certain kind of science-fiction fan--those that like a large
dose of realism with their star travel.  They want to know how it works,
why it works, and how to build one of their own.  They check designs
they have come up with again others in the real world (``say, this attack
speeder will carry twice the bomb tonnage of a F-15 Strike Eagle!``).
Mind you not everyone who plays Traveller is like this, or like this
about every topic, but I would argue that those kind of people make up 
a majority of its players.


Thor Christensen writes about the Saturn V and the Shuttle:

>The shuttle is designed for re-entry from orbit, a useful tool if you have
>already established yourself in orbit.  NASA and the Federal
>government (read Congress, lobbyist groups) did the US Space
>program a huge disservice (IMHO) when they placed the cart before
>the horse and sank most of their dollars into the design and production
>of the Shuttle.  

   Actually, they didn't.  Skylab (if you can remember it) was suppose to
be the platform that the Shuttle was suppose to be using.  Unfortunately,
delays in getting the Shuttle space worthy (caused by budget cutting
among other things) caused a lengthy period of time when Skylab
went unoccupied.  Its orbit began to decay and it reentered the
atmosphere before NASA could send a Shuttle up to do anything
about it.

>Also, by placing the lauch site at the equator (like the European Space
>Agency in Guyana) you gain 10-15% in the mass that you can
>effectively get into orbit.  Why haven't we built nearer the equator? 
>Should Traveller maps reflect this reality?

   Whenever you can't figure out something about any kind of human
interaction above the one-on-one level, the answer to `why not?` is
always either money or politics or both.  This is especially true when
something seems like a perfectly logical and worthwhile endeavor, but it
isn't being done or being done correctly.

   The U.S. has no Guyana, though if it were to re-annex the Philippines
it might.  The answer in this case is both politics and money.

   Should Traveller maps reflect this reality?  Interesting idea, except that
wouldn't contra-grav lifters nullify the advantages gained by taking off
from the equatorial regions?


--Harold



------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 1995 09:58:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mark Clark <markc@brahms.udel.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Saturn V and stuff
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950511093743.28824B-100000@brahms.udel.edu>

> Unfortunately what we need is a system that can provide us with a cheap
> means of getting mass into orbit.  The Saturn provided that, the Shuttle
> does not.  

I think you're incorrect - the Saturn system was rather expensive to run 
and threw away all the components in the process of launching. 

> For the Space Station to ever get developed we are going to need
> something along the lines of Saturn again, or Energia.  The shuttle is
> designed for re-entry from orbit, a useful tool if you have already
> established yourself in orbit.  NASA and the Federal government (read
> Congress, lobbyist groups) did the US Space program a huge disservice 
> (IMHO)
> when they placed the cart before the horse and sank most of their dollars
> into the design and production of the Shuttle. 

The Shuttle was designed as part of a total package, and was intended as 
the service vehcile for a space station.  The station was included in the 
cost of the initial shuttle program - cost overruns and budget cuts 
eventually squezed the station portion of the program out of the 
picture.  

The real problems of the American space program have their roots much 
earlier, in the Cold War.  Space became a matter of competition between 
the USA and the USSR, and astronauts and cosmonauts lost their lives for 
political purposes in the race to get to the Moon.  Once that was over, 
the sense of spectacle wound down, and NASA had a problem getting 
attention and funding.

> Other vehicles are now on
> the drawing board, but none (to my knowledge) seek to address this problem.
> I know that there are some NASA types on this newsletter - any other word?

Actually, lower cost to orbit is the goal of most of the launch vehicles 
being considered now.  The big barrier is that with the stretch out of 
the shuttle's lifetime due to the Challenger explosion (fewer flights per 
year), it's going to be some time before NASA has to develop a new vehicle.

If we want a heavy lift vehicle, we should buy lift on the Energia from 
the Russians - much cheaper than buying a new vehicle of our own.

Anyway, I think we've wandered rather far from the purpose of this 
mailing list.  I'll be happy to move this to private mail if folks would 
like to discuss this further.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 May 95 20:17 BST-1
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 281
Message-ID: <memo.237181@cix.compulink.co.uk>

In-Reply-To: <199505102304.TAA20163@Ambassador.MPGN.COM>


  > From: ThorC@UH.EDU (thor christensen) 
  > Subject: Saturn V 
  >  
  > Also, by placing the lauch site at the equator (like the European Space
  > Agency in Guyana) you gain 10-15% in the mass that you can effectively
  > get into orbit.  Why haven't we built nearer the equator?  Should
  > Traveller maps reflect this reality? 

Whenever I draw a planetary map, I always try to put the starports close
to the equator. I think a lot of the official ones have them there.

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 282
***************************


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