Subj: Traveller-digest V1999 #1405
Date: 11/27/99 2:05:28 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)
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Traveller-digest Saturday, November 27 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 1405
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Superpowers
Volcanic evidence (was Re: Cold War)
Re: Crypto
Lava mining
Re: Cold War
Re: Volcanoes and Cities
Re: Volcanoes and Cities
Re: Crypto
Re: Cold War
Re: Heroes and Villians pt Nth (was Ming, Barbarela, Remulak)
Re: Cold War
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #1400
Comets vs Asteroids
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1400
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 09:51:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Superpowers
In mail you write:
> On 26-11-99, Kyle Schuant said :
>
> <>
>
>>You can't compare the explosion of lots of nukes with
>>the explosion of a volcano. A volcano does not have a
>>3million centigrade fireball, nor deadly radiation.
>>Its blast is often supersonic, but it doesn't usually
>>explode in the middle of a city (disaster movies
>>notwithstanding). Also, one big bang doesn't make as
>>much dust (for nuclear winters) as lots of "little"
>>bangs. Lots of little ones cause more damage; this is
>>the principle of the frag grenade.
>
> Hmm, nice try, but wrong. True, yer average volcanic eruption doesn't get
> up to the temperatures found in nuclear detonation (which, BTW, only get to
> a couple of thousand degrees Kelvin). It does, however, emit large doses
> of radiation, depending on eruption type. Even better, it vents all sorts
> of lovely gasses which if manufactured by man would be outlawed. Rarely do
> volcanoes in the middle of a city go off because humans are not so totally
> moronic so as to build on the flanks of too many active hilltops. When
> they have, they've discovered their mistake and not lived to tell of it.
> Eruptions ala 'Volcano' are historically rare. However, can you say
> Pompeii ? It doesn't have to spew forth lava to be deadly.
>
> As for spitting up ash, wrong again. We find a fair few ash layers in
> sedimentary rocks that must have been many, many metres thick when they
> were laid. Often, we find the same evidence from the same eruption
> hundreds of kilometers from the eruption point itself. One eruption in
> recent history altered the climate across the globe. Krakatua. One single
> eruption. Heard as far away as Sydney in Australia where the Governor
> thought Russian warships were bombarding his coastal defences. Show me a
> nuke that can do that !
I live within sight of Mount St. Helens. We've *seen* those meter thick
ash layers. Even hundred of miles away. But the trick is that the ash
has to get into the *stratosphere* to affect climate. That 1815
explosion caused *more* of that effect, even though it was smaller than
St. Helens (and Kratatoa, and that Taopura(sp?) blast someone was
talking about). That's because it went more *up* than out. And it may
have produced finer ash, which stays up longer.
Nukes, because of the fireball, are *much* better at getting
particulates, especially *fine* particulates, into the upper
atmosphere. Sure, each one puts up less *indivually*. But they raise it
higher, and because there are a *lot* of them, widely spread, they
distribute it more evenly.
Then there's the smoke from the firestorms. Anyplace where you get a
firestorm, the severe updraft in the center that drives the firestorm
will also carry smoke particles (quite close to "ideal" size for
staying up a *long* time) into the stratosphere.
One of the big arguments regarding attempts to calculate the effecs of
a large, widespread attack is just how big the firestorms would be, how
many there'd be, and how long they'd last before spreading to far to
sustain the winds that drive them.
The USSR would have had a lot of them, because they liked to hide silos
in *thick* forests. Cities with lots of older buildings are another
prime candidate.
BTW, I forget who it was who kept harping on "there weren't enough
missiles to carry all those warheads". Well, I spent a lot of years
living next to a SAC airbase. Those B52 crews would have done their
damnedest to get their "warheads" (bombs, and later stand-off
shortrange missiles) thru. And I think a lot would have succeeded.
Ditto for their Soviet counterparts.
And I have to wonder about the bombers that'd get shot down. We know
that our bombs can survive explosions and crashes IF THEY AREN'T ARMED
at the time. What happens if they *are* armed. For that matter, is
there a way the crew could detonate them in the time between "We're
going down!" and impact?
> ObTrav : Imagine a system where the populace of the mainworld is sitting on
> the flanks of a volcano they think is extinct. Say, Olympus Mons on Mars.
> Big bugger. What are they gonna do when it appears that it isn't extinct ?
> How do up and move millions of people, even in a high TL Third Imperium ?
> Imagine the PC's fighting people off because they're the last ship out
> after all the nobles' yachts and Megacorps freighters have left. Ooh,
> that'd be evil.
Check out a bunch of John Brunner's early SF. He had "involuntary"
colonies scattered all over the place. They were all ZFPs (Zarathustra
Refugee Planets". The only title I can remember off the top of my head
is "The Pirates of Zan".
Basic concept was that centuries back, it'd been discovered that
Zarathustra's sun was going to nova. Soon. A massive evacuation attempt
took place, and towards the end, as the day side started to cook, the
last few hundred ships were launching from night side and trying to
stay in the planet's shadow as long as possible while trying to get up
to speed for hyperdrive (In traveller terms, make it to the 100
diameter limit).
This meant that due to the planet's position, they were headed out into
unexplored space (in Traveller, make it that the radiation from the
nova not only *caused* the misjumps, but biased them in that direction)
They were badly overloaded. So badly that there were almost immediate
life support problems. So when they came out of hyper (exited jump)
they *had* to head for any planets that were nearby, just to replenish
the air supply.
Some ships forcibly unloaded the passengers, promising to bring help
and were then lost when their engines or crew weren't up to making the
return trip to civilized space.
Other ships were in too bad a condition (or had lost too many of the
operations personnel due to life support and fighting with the
passengers. When they landed (or often "crashed" in a manner that let
enough people survive) they were *stuck*.
Thus as folks expanded into this area they were always finding colonies
in the damnedest places. Planets that were "livable" but only just. And
sometimes, the folks that discovered them would keep it a secret. In
one book, someone had found a ZFP that was still a fair ways beyond the
"border" (misjump!) and when he got back, the megacorp he worked for
kept it a secret. they infiltrated the local theocracy, and
"redirected" the way sacrifices were done. In short, they used the
planet as a "spare parts" depot.
Anyway, you'd get some of the same effects (overloaded sgips,
passengers and crew fighting over life support, critical systems
getting damaged). Alas, you wouldn't be likely to get the massive
number of mis-jumped ships. :-(
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 14:44:04 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Volcanic evidence (was Re: Cold War)
>The power of St Helens was, what, about 4MT ? And that affected
>such a small area of the surface of the Earth as to laughable. In
>1000 years time, there won't even *be* any evidence for the eruption.
In a thousand years, most of the surface evidence will have eroded/rotted
away unless another eruption comes along and puts a new surface on the area
(which would cover over and preserve the fallen trees, for example). The new
shape of the mountain, however, will remain until another eruption changes it
again. That is sufficient evidence of the eruption, and will last however
many decades/centuries/millenia it is allowed to by the magma mass beneath
St. Helens...
GC (occasional Geologist)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 11:05:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Crypto
In mail you write:
> Was Written:
>
>>> a) the code book is bigger than the message (since you have
>>> a substitution table for each letter.)
>>>
>>> b) only people with a complete code book can use the code.
>>>
>>> c) how do you transmit and secure the code book?
>
> Snip
>
>>The problem is that "one-time pads" is that they are *not* suitable for
>>this sort of application. They work great for point to point
>>communications, because you only have to make sure that the two points
>>involved get their "pads" securely.
>
>
> Response:
>
> I'm not really all that familiar with cryptography but would the following
> work:
>
> Each "branch office" would receive at scheduled periods a unique code which
> consists of two tables of simple equations whose results are non-repeating
> decimals i.e., like Pi?.
There are no "simple" equations for irrationals like that. Or, rather,
there are "simple" equations, and there are equations that will easily
let you produce the XXth digit of the number.
The simple equations can take *hours* to give you "merely" the 10th
digit of the number.
But that really doesn't matter.
> Each table would be sent by separate secure messenger.
The problem that you are missing is that every branch you add to the
network adds another set of code keys OF WHATEVER FORM to be
distributed. And since they all have to be the *same* that means that
intercepting *one* gives away everything. The simple fact that there
are more *copies* makes getting hold of one (either by sneaking a peek
at one "in transit", or by bribing a clerk at a branch).
Dividing the keys into parts, only helps a little with the interception
problem. It doesn't help *at all* with the "insider leak" problem.
> Even if individual messages or even the code tables for a single branch for
> a specific time period are compromised, the larger system is still secure.
You missed the fact that *all* the branches have to have the *same*
keys, because they have to be able to verify or issue the stuff that
the ship has or needs. Remember, there's *no* way to determine *in
advance* which branch a ship will be at several months from now. So
they *all* have to be able to deal with it.
> The home office would originate and have all the keys. It thus would be the
> major security risk.
Except that as I pointed out above, to be of any use for dealing with a
ship whose future location can't be predicted, *all* the branches have
to have the keys.
> Just an idea for a relatively low tech rather unsophisticated message system
> which doubtlessly has sufficient flaws for ingenious PCs to exploit.
It's too insecure for anybody to try it unless they don't bother
talking to anybody familiar with security and cryptography first. And
in that case, they'll *quickly* get taken for all they've got.
In essence, the problem biols down to needing some "token" that the PCs
can carry that can be verified (to prove that contract terms are
correct and thus that *neither* party has cheated) and that can be
modified/updated (to note when, where, and how big the payments were).
This requires a "key". And whatever it is, *any* branch that the PCs
wind up at has to have it, or they can't verify the contract terms, nor
record the new payment on the "token".
And frankly, the customers are going to be a lot happier if *two* keys
are required. One for them, and one for the bank. That way there has to
be *mutual* agreement before any new info goes into the "token".
*Reading* the token shouldn't require a key, or else should require a
publicly known key that isn't easily usable to determine the pair of
write keys.
This sort of thing is *ideal* for the various "public key" ciphers. The
problem is that as computers get better you have to make the keys
longer. Luckily, adding one *bit* to a key generally makes it *at
least* twice as hard to crack. So if you add 8 bits, that's 256 times
the effort. Etc.
There is one *bad* problem that could crop up. Adding bits makes things
so much harder because the keys are based on certain mathematical
operations being *much* harder to reverse than to do.
semi-silly example: it's easy to determine that 5+4 = 9, but the only
way to determine that the 9 was produced by adding 5 and 4 and not 1
and 8, would be to try both as "keys". (say it was a 2 digit combo, and
you knew that it had to add up to 9) You'd have to try 0 & 9, 1 & 8, 2
& 7, 3 & 6, and 4 & 5.
Now imagine it with 10 digit numbers. Bad huh? Even so, it wouldn't
take a computer long to search, simply because given a total of 65, and
a key of 23, it's obvious that the other value has to be 32.
But what most of the public key systems use involves multiplying pairs
of prime numbers instead of merely adding "normal" numbers. So while it
is possible to determine the *product* of my public and private
keys, to determine my private key you have to be able to *factor* that
product.
So for a *trivial* example, try figuring out which two primes were
multiplied together to produce 1147. Then consider trying to do it with
a number in the billions.
The problem is that there's no *guarantee* that there isn't some *easy*
way to determine the factors of a number. Nobody has found one, but
mathematicians haven't proved that it's impossible either.
An early public key system depended on a math problem (the knapsack
algotithm) that someone found a fast solution to. And that rendered
that *method* of encryption invalid. Instead of adding 8 bits making
the things hundred of times harder it only made (say) 8 times harder.
Which meant it was just as hard to generate a longer key as it was to
crack one. Which was no good.
However, even if factoring becomes easy, there are other principles
that public key ciphers can be based on. So as long as there are
ciphers based on different *types* of "hard problems" we are ok.
In reality, quantum computing could make *all* the hard problems easy.
Luckily, it makes enough *other* things easy that we don't have to
worry about it in Traveller. Because it'd rip the Traveller universe to
shreds.
Thus I'm confident that a Traveller type universe would have workable
public key encryption. Though they may have to use fairly long keys,
and the Imperium's history should include at least one time when they
had to scrap a widely used system and switch to another.
This would either have led to major hassles during the changeover, or
if people had been smart, it'd be a damned nuisance. You get the
"damned nuisance" level by *not* using the same algorithm for
everything.
Say you have three different cipher types. One, like PGP depends on
Factoring being hard. Another depends on X and another on Y. So if you
are smart, you use all three. So if one becomes worthless, you've got
the other two to use.
In the case of ship's mortages and payment records, when the bank finds
out that cipher A is no good, they'll switch anybody who was using it
to Cipher B. And paranoid types will have insisted in doing things in
triplicate anyway, one in each cipher.
Sound a bit umbersome? Maybe. But if they had a cipher become worthless
and *werent* doing things that way, they'd lose *everything*, Heck,
that could be a the reason for a major depession or two. But once you
learn that lesson you aren't going to forget!
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:02:12 EST
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Lava mining
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) typed:
>So picture someone getting the idea of building mining "platforms" that
>can float on the lava, and use CG to cross the solid stuff. Equipped to
>sample the fresh lava and *pump* (scoop?) it aboard for processing when
>you find flows rich in valuable minerals.
>
>Some may even "drill" into the flows to find the internal "pools" or
>the magma chambers where the *really* good stuff forms.
You aren't going to get the really precious minerals this way, since they
don't form until cooling. With the right hardware this _might_ be a decent
way to extract the common elements, pulling iron, aluminum, silicon,
magnesium and similar out of the liquid state instead of needing a furnace.
You just aren't going to find gold, silver or copper in this state unless
you've developed a way to process the entire flow as it goes by down to a
part-per-trillion molecular level. Those elements tend to stay deep (being
heavier) and come up through the cracks under high pressure MUCH later. And
a carbon-rich magma chamber is still a millenium or so from being a diamond
mine...
GC
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:08:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Cold War
In mail you write:
> Cool. The original point was total destruction of "...all life on earth
> ...". Societies ? Sure. All life ? Not a hope in Hades. Nature has
> tried several times and failed. Nothing we've done up until now can
> duplicate the power of nature. Nothing, zip, zilch, diddly-squat. The
> power of St Helens was, what, about 4MT ? And that affected such a small
> area of the surface of the Earth as to laughable. In 1000 years time,
> there won't even *be* any evidence for the eruption.
Wrong, the ash deposits will last for geological time periods.
> My point is, we have seen displays in the past from good-old Mother Nature
> that make all our purported power look like a joke. Several species
> die-backs have occured throughout time. The most notable being at the K-T
> boundary. Assuming the much-beloved "comet theory", you're talking energy
> far in excess of what we can develop or deploy. Ergo, I think the argument
> that we can "destroy all life on Earth" is flawed.
Since we've found the crater, the big question is was it a commet or an
asteroid.
But you forget that "Nature" has used brute force, and concentrated at
one point, at that.
We can, regrettably, do better. We can exert our force in just the
right places to maximize the damage.
Even so, it *would* take quite a bit to wipe out the critters around
the deep ocean vents. And forget wiping out the deep rock bacteria.
Short of remelting the entire crust I don't think they *can* be wiped
out.
But wiping out all the animals and most of the plants is much easier.
Even easier if you ignore the really small stuff.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 12:03:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Volcanoes and Cities
In mail you write:
> Was Writ:
>
>>Ever visited Naples? There's also a city in Japan (sawit on the Discovery
>>Channel yesterday, can't remember the name) that sits right under a very
>>active volcano.. the schools have eruption drills!
>
> Don't forget Mount Ranier and Mount Shasta as they were the expected
> candidates before St. Helens blew. By the way you want to see what calderas
> looks like in the lower 48 check out the pair in the Jemez Mountains of
> Northern New Mexico. The larger of the two lies partially over the first
> and if memory serves correctly has a measured crater over 7 klicks across.
> I have a geologic map of the area in a box some where. There are pumice
> beds over 50 feet thick some miles distant from the rim. When it blew...
> well lets just say that the future St. Helens eruption of recent memory was
> a popcorn fart by comparison. There is also a rather large caldera in the
> Med whose last explosion is said to be tied to the Atlantis myths.
Thera.
But getting back to the US, there's a place in California (Long
Valley?) that was dicovered to be a *big* caldera a few years back.
It's got a lot of people living in it, and it is *definitely* only
"dormant". USGS has sensors all over the place.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 17:05:44 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt
Subject: Re: Volcanoes and Cities
At 12:03 PM 11/27/99 PST, you wrote:
>
>But getting back to the US, there's a place in California (Long
>Valley?) that was dicovered to be a *big* caldera a few years back.
>It's got a lot of people living in it, and it is *definitely* only
>"dormant". USGS has sensors all over the place.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
Hi, Leonard!
Yellowstone or Yosemite (the one with the "Old Faithful" gyser in
it) is sitting on top of what you call a "third type" of volcano. I goes
every hunfred thosand years or so, based on geologic record. We're about
due, apparently, and the orbital sattilites have detected a 1m upwards
change in that areas altitude. Based on the geologic record, we're talking
about an eruptive area the size of Rhode Island and flow distantces ten
times that.
This was all in a Time or Popular Science magazine that came out
shortly after the "Coast is Toast" movie.
--Michel
-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
Michel R. Vaillancourt misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
ICQ # 31172292
"Reality Error in Progress....
....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"
-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 13:13:57 -0800
From: "B. Mallory"
Subject: Re: Crypto
Daniel Phelps wrote:
> Each "branch office" would receive at scheduled periods a unique code which
> consists of two tables of simple equations whose results are non-repeating
> decimals i.e., like Pi?.
> Dan
Check out the Enigma machine. New wheels can be distributed on a
regular basis.
When deciding upon what type of code to use there are several factors to
consider.
1. How long do you want to delay the decoding? (Only single use code
books do not apply here)
2. How much information do you want to transmit?
3. How much effort can the remote person afford to take? (Check out
PALVERSTON code used in
the American cival war for an easy to use example.)
Try using a newspaper for the single use key with a simple substitution
code that is then run
through a transposition pattern. This will provide some error recovery
for the receiver while
providing for ease of use and good security. A search of the remote
site is less likely to
reveal what is being used as a key. The reomte also runs less risk of
being compromised by
continually coming into contact with someone to get a new book.
Interesting thread
B.Mallory
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 22:32:22 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav
Subject: Re: Cold War
On Sat, 27 Nov 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Since we've found the crater, the big question is was it a commet or an
>asteroid.
So what is the difference between a comet and an asteroid ?
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 21:35:02 GMT
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)
Subject: Re: Heroes and Villians pt Nth (was Ming, Barbarela, Remulak)
On Sun, 28 Nov 1999 00:02:24 +1300, "Frank Pitt"
wrote:
>
>> Dan Roseberry (plop101) "Watsa pax anyway?
>> Some Kinda Desease?" --Junior Samples BR549
>
>Nah, it's transport industry slang for passengers.
>
A pax on both your houses!
================================================================================
- - Jeff Peterson j_pete@bellsouth.net
"Everything has an end, except sausages, which have two." -Viking Proverb
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833
GCS V 3.12 d- s:+: a- C+++ UH++$ P-- L+ E-- W++ N++ o-- K- w++++(---)$ !O M-- V-
PS-- PE++ Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X+ R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D++ G e+ h--- r+++ y+++
NOG #74 AirStar Nova 700
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 17:38:59 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt
Subject: Re: Cold War
At 10:32 PM 11/27/99 +0100, you wrote:
>On Sat, 27 Nov 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>>Since we've found the crater, the big question is was it a commet or an
>>asteroid.
>
>So what is the difference between a comet and an asteroid ?
>
>>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>
>Tommy Grav
Mass, and therefore punch-through on the crust, and therefore how
much particulate matter got injected into the stratosphere as a result. I
think.
--Michel
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ICQ # 31172292
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 15:46:21 -0600
From: Steve Lieb
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #1400
> > >I also submit that no-one has ever had the ability.
> >
> > Here we disagree. The Cold War was not a bad dream.
>
> I'm sorry Glenn, but you're completely wrong on this one.
>
> There are not, and have never been, enough nuclear weapons on the planet
> to
> completely wipe out even a single moderate sized country , say France, let
> alone the entire world.
>
> Frankie.
>
[Steve Lieb] Sorry, I had to de-lurk for a moment to engage this
"debunking".
Not sure how such a statement could be made, but here's the numbers.
At the height of the cold war, there were approximately 50,000
warheads in various stockpiles, averaging (WAG) probably less than 10
megatons.
Now the damned statistics. 50,000 warheads x 10 megatons means, if
they were scattered perfectly in perfect conditions, they would effectively
destroy 25 mi^2 x 50,000 or 1.25 mio square miles. Would this wipe out a
country the size of France? I don't know the size of France, but California
is only about 150,000 sq miles.
Now, is this likely (perfect distribution, perfect condition)? No,
in fact, impossible.
But I'm pretty certain that if even a decent fraction of these
warheads landed, France would be functionally obliterated.
Of course, it depends also on how you define "wipe out"? If you
mean "disintegrate to atoms" - you're right. But a single 50mt
lithium-cobalt doped warhead could, over the span of a half-dozen years,
wipe out human and animal (and a sizeable fraction of vegetable) life on
this planet. Leo Szilard pointed that out in what - 1957? Basic physics
hasn't changed since then, and our understanding of the catastrophic
consequences of even small amounts of radiation in the natural environments
has only gotten better.
/lurk
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 22:00:22 GMT
From: j_pete@bellsouth.net (Pete)
Subject: Comets vs Asteroids
On Sat, 27 Nov 1999 17:38:59 -0400, Michel Vaillancourt
wrote:
>At 10:32 PM 11/27/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>On Sat, 27 Nov 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>
>>>Since we've found the crater, the big question is was it a commet or an
>>>asteroid.
>>
>>So what is the difference between a comet and an asteroid ?
>>
>>>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>>
>>Tommy Grav
>
> Mass, and therefore punch-through on the crust, and therefore how
>much particulate matter got injected into the stratosphere as a result. I
>think.
>
Asteroids are denser and contain a higher percentage of metal. Comets
are mostly water and frozen gasses.
================================================================================
- - Jeff Peterson j_pete@bellsouth.net
"Everything has an end, except sausages, which have two." -Viking Proverb
Pete 0609 D258A85-3 S kk- hi++ as+ va++ dr++ so zh- vi+ da++ A833
GCS V 3.12 d- s:+: a- C+++ UH++$ P-- L+ E-- W++ N++ o-- K- w++++(---)$ !O M-- V-
PS-- PE++ Y+ PGP t+ 5++ X+ R+ tv+ b+++ DI++ D++ G e+ h--- r+++ y+++
NOG #74 AirStar Nova 700
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Nov 1999 16:06:30 -0600
From: ehenry@newberlin.org (Eric Henry)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #1400
10 megatons is a lot, even for the old Soviets.
warhead yield was initially high only because RV CEP was so high. As the
cold war progressed, american yields dropped to fractions of a megaton
because CEP had also dropped.
This doesn't change the number of warheads of course.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Lieb
To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'
Date: Saturday, November 27, 1999 4:07 PM
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #1400
>> > >I also submit that no-one has ever had the ability.
>> >
>> > Here we disagree. The Cold War was not a bad dream.
>>
>> I'm sorry Glenn, but you're completely wrong on this one.
>>
>> There are not, and have never been, enough nuclear weapons on the planet
>> to
>> completely wipe out even a single moderate sized country , say France,
let
>> alone the entire world.
>>
>> Frankie.
>>
> [Steve Lieb] Sorry, I had to de-lurk for a moment to engage this
>"debunking".
>
> Not sure how such a statement could be made, but here's the numbers.
> At the height of the cold war, there were approximately 50,000
>warheads in various stockpiles, averaging (WAG) probably less than 10
>megatons.
>
> Now the damned statistics. 50,000 warheads x 10 megatons means, if
>they were scattered perfectly in perfect conditions, they would effectively
>destroy 25 mi^2 x 50,000 or 1.25 mio square miles. Would this wipe out a
>country the size of France? I don't know the size of France, but
California
>is only about 150,000 sq miles.
> Now, is this likely (perfect distribution, perfect condition)? No,
>in fact, impossible.
> But I'm pretty certain that if even a decent fraction of these
>warheads landed, France would be functionally obliterated.
>
> Of course, it depends also on how you define "wipe out"? If you
>mean "disintegrate to atoms" - you're right. But a single 50mt
>lithium-cobalt doped warhead could, over the span of a half-dozen years,
>wipe out human and animal (and a sizeable fraction of vegetable) life on
>this planet. Leo Szilard pointed that out in what - 1957? Basic physics
>hasn't changed since then, and our understanding of the catastrophic
>consequences of even small amounts of radiation in the natural environments
>has only gotten better.
>
> /lurk
>
>
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1405
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