The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 501  6071 21-Sep-1993 gwh@lurnix.COM   G-loads in Brilliant Lances << Noticing
 501  6072 22-Sep-1993 kirschj@rhea.in  RE: RE: Hull size table << Dan Corrin <
 501  6073 23-Sep-1993 c.kallenbach@ge  Vanguard Reaches babbling << Yes, I am
 501  6074 22-Sep-1993                  How to Build... << Hail TMLers..
 501  6075 22-Sep-1993 mgood@MIT.EDU    TNE Small Arms penetration vaules << Hi
 501  6076 23-Sep-1993 Palmer T. Davis  Major problems with Brilliant Lances <<
 501  6077 23-Sep-1993 "SCP23009 Micha  << subscribe Traveller Michael Nolan
 501  6078 23-Sep-1993 tom@csvax1.ucc.  TNE: Concussion and weapons << In TNE G
 501  6080 25-Sep-1993 Anthony Neal     Radio and Jumpspace << Hello All:
 501  6081 25-Sep-1993 Lanthier Michae  Add me! << Could you add me to your mai
 501  6082 26-Sep-1993 Jeff Zeitlin     Jump Radio << TML::> This question fall
 501  6083 27-Sep-1993 Glenn Myers      New TML member << Hello TML:
 501  6084 28-Sep-1993 Jo Jaquinta      20th anniversary challange <<  I don't
 501  6085 28-Sep-1993 Goldman of Chao  Looking for some old stuff... << To rou
 501  6086 28-Sep-1993                  Traveller PBEM Question << Hail Travell
 501  6087 28-Sep-1993 nosnhoJ enaD     20th Anniversary Musings... << As one o

------------------------------

Bundle: 501
Archive-Message-Number: 6071
Subject: G-loads in Brilliant Lances
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 19:35:38 -0700
From: gwh@lurnix.COM


Noticing the stuff in BL about intertial compensation...

It _mentions_ accelleration tanks, and doesn't give any rules
or details.  Loren, I presume this is a cue to patiently wait
for the tech book? ;-)

- -george william herbert



------------------------------

Bundle: 501
Archive-Message-Number: 6072
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 11:15:32 EDT
From: kirschj@rhea.informatik.uni-bonn.de
Subject: RE: RE: Hull size table

Dan Corrin <dan@engrg.uwo.ca> wrote:
> I was just sitting down to deisgn a ship design aide for the new
> rules. The first thing was to convert the "hull size table" to a
> formula, because I have always disliked even sized hulls. One doesn't
> see descrete sizes of automobiles, nor are we in Niven's universe with
> iscrete sized General Products hulls.

> Below is the hull table I got from plugging values into the
> correct formulae for a sphere. L was calculated from volume:
>       vol = 4/3 pi r^3 (where L = 2*r)
> and the material value from:
>       surface = 4 pi r^2, and multiplied by 0.01 to get a 1cm volume.

> Note that in the 30 Ton - 20,000 Ton  range the figures are quite
> similar, but outside those values significant deviation occurs.

For the hulls from 1 to 10 tons the text in the Tech Book gives a hint:
cite from page 2, Configurations (under the Hull siye table)
"Hulls of 10 tons or less in displacement are elongated six-sided blocks, and
 are assumed to be laid out in a utilitarian form."
This will result in some inaccuracies, if a sphere hull is assumed. But all in
all I think the only cause of the values in the tables is the cut down of
fractions in calculations.

For the larger hulls, you should take into consideration that the errors of
your formula are within 10% of the MV given in the table. The same is true for
the length. This shouldn't bother you, especially if you compare it to the
section of the text talking about Deck plans, which says:
"When comparing the final number of grid squares used on the deckplan to the
 rated tonnage of the vessel's design, allow 10-20% leeway."
Your calculations are more exact than those in the table, so keep them. A
deviation of 10% in the hull volume does not much damage. If I'm correct in
my observation, that the calculated values for smaller hulls are smaller than
those in the table, and the values for larger hulls are greater, there should
be no problem, because with increasing displacement, the part of the volume
devoted to the hull shrinks significantly. And of corse the Hull Form and
Configuration Table give much more error margin than you could include
using your formula.

One more thing: There are no Asteroid hulls any more. I will use the
Megatraveller rules for this. Will there be any rules for hollowing out
asteroids?

Juergen

- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Juergen Kirsch
Institut fuer Informatik, Universitaet Bonn
Germany
kirschj@rhea.informatik.uni-bonn.de

------------------------------

Bundle: 501
Archive-Message-Number: 6073
From: c.kallenbach@genie.geis.com
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 01:24:00 BST
Subject: Vanguard Reaches babbling

Yes, I am aware of the Far Frontiers article in Ares Magazine.
icable to anything, as far as I know.
lds in the Far
Vanguard Reaches.
rticle, I don't
or GEnie) includes this
stuff, and is the current item as far as it goes.
An associate of mine is redoing the sector data for The Beyond. My
 is, sadly, mostly out of gaming and
et, guys,
 a real-live corporation, and I own some rights to
hope to be
Beyond data soon.
il is called "snail" mail, around here anyway. <g>
In regard to Freedonia, the guys from FASA (in the days B.B.--Before
simply the word "Freedonia" underneath. I presume you all know what
eal the truth due to a promise to
t rhymes with "NASA," doesn't it?
The Traveller Mailing List is a terrific idea, but I'm not sure I can
digest 12 pages of stuff per day! I still have that boring work and
sleep and eating biz taking up several hours a week. <g>

eaches or The Beyond, just
at my friends

>>II<<, not >>III<<. Thanks.



------------------------------

Bundle: 501
Archive-Message-Number: 6074
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 22:57:03 -0400
From: <cs911408@ariel.yorku.ca>
Subject: How to Build...


Hail TMLers..

	I am looking for any inforamtion regarding creation and usage of Satialites (sp?) (like Mars Orb. Probe..etc.)..
are there any Deckplans/engenerring Data avil. anywhere?..

I wish my Expolartion team to use those to quicken up data gathering on planets and other stuff..

regards..

	-Shalom Zaidfeld
PS.
sorry for the english.. it's too late at night...:)

------------------------------

Bundle: 501
Archive-Message-Number: 6075
From: mgood@MIT.EDU
Subject: TNE Small Arms penetration vaules
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 93 23:14:42 EDT

Hi!

I've started running a Traveller campaign after 6 years of not playing
the game, and I've just subscribed to this list (which seems
pretty cool!).

Anyway, I looked back through a few of the old bundles and couldn't
find the thread of this discussion, so I'll start it again (apologies to those
who have heard it before).

What's up with penetration values for small arms in the TNE rulebook?  If I'm
reading the rules right, then a fusion rifle has better penetration at longer
ranges than at shorter ones?  If smaller penetration values, especially
fractional ones, are better than higher ones, shouldn't a plasma or fusion
rifle have a fractional value, rather than a large whole number value?
This doesn't really make sense to me, and my stopgap solution has been to
subtract armor value from penetration value, and the result is how many
dice of damage can get through.  The penetration system seems to
work fine for ships...

Am I missing the point, or are there massive typos in the weapons lists?

Also, if this has been beaten to death, point me to the bundles/dates,
and I'll look it over myself...

Matt "Likes the New Rulebook" Goodman

------------------------------


Bundle: 501
Archive-Message-Number: 6076
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 93 05:36:56 -0400
From: ptd2@po.CWRU.Edu (Palmer T. Davis)
Subject: Major problems with Brilliant Lances
Reply-To: ptd2@po.CWRU.Edu (Palmer T. Davis)



I've been saving my comments on TNE itself until I calm down from the
fit of apoplexy that I had after I bought it.
The space combat system seemed to be the one bright spot except for its
treatment of missiles, so when _Brilliant_Lances_ came out, I decided to
give it a chance.

Overall, I'd rate the game a near miss.  Much of what is new about BL
is what I had hoped the old Megatraveller system would be like instead
of the unsightly cross-breeding of High Guard and the MT vehicle rules
that it turned out to be.  Unfortunately, the new system has several
serious problems:

  * Detonation lasers as the only form of missile armament don't make sense
    at all, especially given the Imperial Rules of War.  They made sense in
    2300 because a ship under stutterwarp will appear sequentially in a
    finite number of relatively predictable locations; the best chance of
    achieving a hit is to fire at every place where the target might be.
    But if you don't need to do that, why pay for such a sophisticated and
    expensive warhead when something as simple as a cloud of shrapnel
    fragments will strike the target with enormous levels of kinetic energy
    when accelerated to speeds meaningful on the map?  Or if you're going
    to use a nuclear warhead to generate most of the energy, why waste most
    of it on a weapon as inefficient as a detonation laser when you can
    simply have the warhead itself strike the target?

    Furthermore, nobody (in the Imperium) outside the Imperial Navy should
    even have these gadgets; the Imperial Rules of War absolutely prohibit
    the use or even possession of nuclear weapons of any sort!  It is simply
    not believable for them to suddenly be not only available but universal.
    Furthermore, from a roleplaying standpoint, the missiles are a GM's
    worst nightmare: if 500 kt nuclear weapons are available for use in
    space, they are just as available for use against targets on the ground,
    and there is no believable way to keep the players from using them.
    (Cheap and universally available nuclear dampers might mitigate the
    problem, but in that case, there is no believable way to have the sorts
    of planetary bombardments that the background clearly indicates were
    common during the Rebellion.)  While BL is in many ways an advance
    over previous Traveller ship combat systems, this problem alone more
    than outweighs the advantages of the new system.

    To summarize: I can see a role for detonation lasers in the hands of
    the military (only), but they shouldn't be the only sort of missile, nor
    should they be the default.

    (And yes, I realize that the Imperial Rules of War are meaningless
    unless you're playing in the Imperium, but the offending missiles are
    present in scenarios supposedly set there and then.)

  * Detonation laser ranges are far too short.  If you don't have to put
    lots of beams in lots of places to try to hit a ship under stutterwarp,
    the remaining reason to use a nuclear warhead as a detonation laser
    rather than in an attempt to directly vaporize the target is so that
    you can detonate it outside the range of the target's active defenses.
    If a laser powered by the ship's power plant can hit targets ten hexes
    away with full penetration, a detonation laser powered by a nuclear
    explosion should be able to reach at least that far.  Even after allowing
    for simpler avionics in a missile guidance system than in a MFD, warheads
    should still be able to hit from outside nuclear damper range, at least
    at later tech levels.

  * While we're on the subject of missiles, command guidance is a poor choice
    for the default missile guidance system.  Fire control is represented as
    a hard problem; given that a range of five hexes produces a round-trip
    time delay of one second due to the speed of light, a missile in the same
    hex as the target has a much better idea of where to aim than an operator
    several hexes away can possibly have, even with relatively stupid data
    processing equipment.  Furthermore, manual command guidance restricts
    ties up the operator for the missile's entire flight time and reduces
    the rate of fire; ideally, you want as many missiles in flight as
    possible.

    This seems to be another idea lifted from Star Cruiser that doesn't really
    work, and didn't in Star Cruiser, either, where each hex of range yields
    a delay of four seconds.  Without FTL communication (which would almost
    completely ruin the Traveller universe), remote object control the way
    that the rules present it is completely impractical.  Furthermore, once
    you get past TL 8 or so, electronics technology should be sophisticated
    enough to obviate the need for launcher-guided missles altoghether,
    except perhaps in a few special cases where special tactical effects are
    desired.

  * The map scale is too large.  Turns are too long, and hexes are so large
    that gravity, which should be an important consideration, has almost no
    effect.  1000 s turns with 10 Mm hexes (or 20 min turns with 12000 km
    hexes) would have preserved the correct time scale, allowed hexes small
    enough to reflect the gravitational effects of nearby terrain features,
    and neatly gotten rid of half hexes of acceleration.

  * The implementation of vectored movement is very clunky.  There is no
    reason why a ship's heading needs to be rounded off to 30 degrees; any
    arbitrary vector on the hex map may be represented as the sum of at
    most two vectors along hex rows.  With a scale such that one G-turn
    changes one's heading vector by one hex, less record keeping would be
    required per ship to get movement exactly right than is needed with the
    present system.  (In other words, something like _Mayday_, with two sets
    of vector counters on the ship control sheet rather than the "future"
    counter on the board.)

  * Armor is too effective.  While it is possible to produce a "mission kill"
    on a heavily armored ship by destroying most of its systems on the
    surface as the game is written, non-meson weapons ought to be able to
    vaporize even the most heavily-armored ships, given a sufficiently heavy
    bombardment.  (Either that, or most of the space combat artwork published
    is wildly inaccurate.)  Furthermore, a ship can be made that heavily
    armored too easily.

  * Crew sizes are too large.  A type-S scout/courier should be capable of
    being permanently operated singlehandedly.  A _Gazelle_ should have a
    crew of exactly a dozen: four officers and eight enlisted men.  Free
    traders shouldn't require more than four permanent crew.  Changing facts
    like these breaks existing campaign materials (quite badly, in the case
    of my _Gazelle_-based campaign).

    It is unclear whether the crew sizes produced by the ship construction
    system are intended for pre- or post-virus settings; presumably, the
    (hideously unbelievable) "sneakernet" workaround to the virus would
    require larger crews and larger control modifiers; lowering the control
    modifier would bring down crew sizes a bit.  More usefully, providing
    some sort of system for positions to be combined (or reduced in the case
    of non-military vessels) and for maintenance duties to be relegated to
    base personnel could also bring crew sizes back in line.

  * Where have PA turrets and energy weapons gone?  I can live without pulse
    lasers, and I miss energy weapons only because they logically scale up
    from what tanks are normally armed with, but _Gazelle_ and _Kinunir_ both
    rely on accelerator turrets and barbettes for their main armament.  (BTW,
    whatever happened to _Kinunir_'s black globe?  Or the grav APC?)

  * Maneuver drive endurance has gone from far too long (under MegaTraveller)
    to far too short.  One of the basic assumptions about how ships work has
    always been that maneuver drives provide constant thrust for many weeks,
    making them actually useful for in-system travel.  Changing this reduces
    the value of fast maneuver drives for in-system travel (trip time is a
    function of the number of G-turns that you burn, not your maneuver drive
    rating) and drastically alters the way that system defense units operate.

Finally, two gripes about the game components themselves:

  * The page layout is too busy; the graphics at the top and bottom detract
    rather than add, and the typeface is such that the eye slides right off.

  * The game components are physically too large.  Because the hex maps
    provided are so large (for the benefit of those who go in for miniatures),
    the available playing area in hexes is too small relative to ships'
    weapon and sensor ranges.  Star Cruiser had the same problem, but
    provided ship counters small enough to be used on 25mm maps, allowing
    the problem to be fixed.  Unfortunately, the counters provided in BL
    are too large to be of any use on a map with hexes that are small enough.

- --
Palmer T. Davis      ___      UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of
<ptd2@po.cwru.edu>   \X/   this IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED.

------------------------------

Bundle: 501
Archive-Message-Number: 6077
From: "SCP23009 Michael Nolan" <SCP23009@novell1.rtc-carlow.ie>
Date:          Thu, 23 Sep 1993 15:02:17 GMT0BST
Subject:

subscribe Traveller Michael Nolan

------------------------------

Bundle: 501
Archive-Message-Number: 6078
Date: 23 Sep 1993 20:56:45 -0300 (BST)
From: tom@csvax1.ucc.ie
Subject: TNE: Concussion and weapons

In TNE GDW took the concussion rules straight out of T:2K. This means that they
do not define what protection is provided by personal armour. This would
basically be a concern for enclosed armour types such as vacc suits, combat
armour and battledress. Could anyone out there suggest an appropriate ruling?

IMHO GDW took far too much in the combat rules straight from T2K without
considering the implications for the Traveller universe. In the process they
downgraded most of the high-tech personal weaponry in comparison to existing
firearms. Plasma/Fusion rifles do significantly less damage than RAM grenades,
need ammunition which is heavier, and have a shorter range. Their only
advantage is that they are not vulnerable to point-defense systems, unlike RAM
grenades and tac missiles. Similarly, gauss rifles do less damage than would
be implied by their stats in Classic Traveller Book 4: Mercenary [the formula
in the T2K small arms book yields 4D damage, not 2D], as does the VRF gauss
gun [13D, not 6D]. This leads to the old Traveller picture of weapons
technology progression breaking down. New weapon technologies have to be
superior to the old systems in some way to be adopted, especially if they are
more expensive.
							Tom

  Tom O'Neill  |   Tom@CSVAX1.UCC.IE        SCCS6085@IRUCCVAX.UCC.IE
- ---------------!--------------------------------------------------------------
                    Fact is stranger than fiction

------------------------------

Bundle: 501
Archive-Message-Number: 6079

------------------------------

Bundle: 501
Archive-Message-Number: 6080
Date: 	Sat, 25 Sep 1993 15:34:04 -0230
From: Anthony Neal <anthonyn@MERCURY.CS.MUN.CA>
Subject: Radio and Jumpspace

Hello All:

	This question falls from the main lines of the TNE debate.

	Would it be possible to hold a jump portal open between two star systems?
I know, I know, can you say Star Gate boys and girls? And if you can, the
second part of my question comes into play...

	Do radio waves propogate through jumpspace? Now! If radio waves propogate
through jumpspace and you hold a stable portal open (even a minutely small one)
then couldn't you have a FTL communications network?

	The way I've always understood jumpspace was that it was an
extra-dimensional tunnel through which a ship travels between two points in
real-space. These tunnels can be opened by a jump drive, and there are
infinitely many between the infinitely many pairs of points.

	Any physicists out there who can comment? (Like we have any Jump Mechanics
Physics experts at this Tech Level... 8-> )

	TTFN!
	Anthony

------------------------------

Bundle: 501
Archive-Message-Number: 6081
From: mlanthie@muskwa.ucs.ualberta.ca (Lanthier Michael)
Subject: Add me!
Date: Sat, 25 Sep 93 15:26:12 MDT


Could you add me to your mailing-list?  Thanx...


------------------------------

Bundle: 501
Archive-Message-Number: 6082
Subject: Jump Radio
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 93 19:48:00 -0500

TML::> This question falls from the main lines of the TNE debate.

   Let me prefix my remarks with the comment that I am not a
   physicist, nor anything even remotely resembling one.  These are
   just my own views on the topic.

TML::> Would it be possible to hold a jump portal open between two star systems
   ::>I know, I know, can you say Star Gate boys and girls? And if you can, the
   ::>second part of my question comes into play...

   Given the previous explanations of how Jump works, I'd be
   inclined to say not - not necessarily because of technical
   limitations, but because of energy limitations.  Remember that
   most of the energy required for a jump is either to open the
   portal itself (according to some explanations) or to maintain a
   realspace field around the vessel (according to others).  If a
   portal stayed open, or could be held open, after a ship passed
   through, it would be possible to follow a ship through
   jump space, and hence jumping out of a system after an act of
   piracy or worse wouldn't allow the bad guys (or your PCs) to
   escape.

TML::> Do radio waves propogate through jumpspace? Now! If radio waves propogat
   ::>through jumpspace and you hold a stable portal open (even a minutely smal
   ::>one) then couldn't you have a FTL communications network?

   Yes, you could, but it wouldn't buy you anything over the XBoats
   in terms of speed.  Remember, all ships make jumps in a 150-hour
   period, plus or minus a small margin of error due to (as near as
   I can come up with an explanation) Heisenberg's Uncertainty
   Principle (well, it's a good buzzword for saying "reason or
   reasons unknown), regardless of power available, size of the
   ship, color of the Captain's socks, et cetera.  So opening a
   portal between Vland and Tauri and holding it open for
   communications would still end up causing each planet to hear
   news from the other a week after it happens.  So, it becomes
   more economical to simply batch up the news and the mail, dump
   it onto a ship on a regular basis, and have the ship bounce back
   and forth.

   But that does in fact assume that pure energy can propagate
   through Jump space.  Which in _my_ Traveller universe is
   impossible to test.  Why?  Because there is an interface between
   normal space and jump space, and energy is reflected from that
   interface.  So, we can't get a transmission _into_ jump space to
   determine whether it could propagate, and we can't put a
   transmitter into jump space because we would need a crewed ship
   to do it, and if we kill the jump field, we kill the crew, even
   if we could recover the ship, which risk nobody is willing to
   volunteer to take.  It's one of the theories behind misjumps
   that result in the ship never showing up...

TML::> The way I've always understood jumpspace was that it was an
   ::>extra-dimensional tunnel through which a ship travels between two points
   ::>real-space. These tunnels can be opened by a jump drive, and there are
   ::>infinitely many between the infinitely many pairs of points.

   I always understood it as more a bubble than a tunnel.  Think of
   the "classical" explanation for the Enterprise's warp engines in
   Star Trek.
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ QMPro 1.50 41-4533 ~ Let's re-IPL the world


------------------------------

Bundle: 501
Archive-Message-Number: 6083
From: Glenn Myers <gem188@swanson.com>
Subject: New TML member
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 14:46:24 EDT

Hello TML:

My name is Glenn Myers and I am new on the Traveller Mailing List.

I work for a software company which only recently got an Internet address.
Anyone wishing to respond to me should SEND mail. Do not REPLY to my mail

I am a mechanical engineer who works in the finite element analysis field.
My experience is in structural, thermal, and electromagnetic analysis.
In a previous career I was with the Navy, where I worked in underwater
vehicle design. Needless to say, the starship design and combat rules are
what makes or breaks a game for me. But I think the campaign setting shapes
those rules in a manner which makes translation to another setting difficult
and perhaps senseless.

I have played Traveller for 10 years, and I do mean Traveller without any
metric prefixes. I recognized the enhanced starship design rules of MegaTraveller,
but I couldn't go with the rebellion setting. My campaign has been set in a
pocket of human settled space removed from the Imperium (Just about where the
Vanguard Reaches should be located). There is limited contact with the Spinward
Marches. Starships are small and uncommon. Survivability of designs is of primary
importance. The largest warships my players ever encountered was a 6000 ton
"cruiser". I used the High Guard rules with a smattering of Book 2 thrown
in where it made sense.

I generally agree with Palmer Davis concerning BL rules. I miss PA barbettes
and energy weapons. I dislike the bean counting approach to G-Turns. And if 12
different headings are to be used, I'd rather just go back to the Book 2 vector
system and my protractor.

I don't want hull cracking detonation laser missles. The High Guard missles did
a nice job of scraping the turrets of the hull and leaving the useful wreck
behind. The existing missles are what happens when high stellar technology
goes berserk without a society to control it.

The long turns and long ranges are due to the fact that fusion bombs are being
used by combatants to knock each other out of space. In fact, most of my
disputes with the new rules were concern overkill of offensive weapons.

I dislike the large size of the map and game pieces. I feel that the cover (and
I use that term very loosely) of the rules book is going to tear every time I
open it. Physically, it looks like something Judges Guild published.

When I bought the rules I thought that what I didn't like I would be able to
fix when FF&S came out. I'm afraid that many of the problems are side effects of
the Virus campaign setting. It makes no sense for me to continue my campaign,
but use the new rules. Still, TNE is the only supported Traveller rules system
available so I guess I'll have to adapt. I hate myself for that.

As a new TML subscriber, I've got a wish list. If these topics have been covered,
please let me know what archive bundle covers it.

Are there any semi-official standards for machine readable file formats for detailed
systems. I want to represent orbits zones, binary and tertiary stars, and moons of
mainworlds. I keep thinking someone has tried to do this before. I've been following
the format in Book 6:Scouts until something better comes along.

Similar to the above, are there any machine readable formats for starship stats?
What about character stats?

Also, I am in the process of learning C. As this is an exercise for my mind and not
work related, I would like to experiment on something Traveller related. Has anyone
written an extended system generation program or even a simple one I could use as a
springboard?

If anyone has alternate vector combat systems floating around which would be
compatable with High Guard designs send me email. I'm always looking to improve
what I use.

Also, I'm looking for copies of High Lightning and Mayday to buy, borrow, barter,
or trade.


TIA, Here's my card:

- ----------------------------------
| Glenn E. Myers                 |
| gmyers@swanson.com             |
| QA software engineer           |
| Swanson Analysis Systems, Inc. |
| (412) 746-3304 x188            |
- ----------------------------------

I think I'd give anything to see a rack of those little black books in a games
store again.


------------------------------

Bundle: 501
Archive-Message-Number: 6084
From: Jo Jaquinta <jaymin@maths.tcd.ie>
Subject: 20th anniversary challange
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 8:40:56 BST

	I don't regularly get Challange but my partner got it the
other day as it was the 20th anniversary issue. Skimming through it
it looked more or less the same as always but reading it there was
definately a different tone.
	The first thing I hit was _Ask Commodore Bwana_. "As a fictitious [sic]
amalgamation of numerous letters and phone calls, I would like to know..."
My eyebrow raised, and I thought about sticking my fingers down my throat.
"This is a bit patronising". It goes on with "Pseudo-reality is heck, isn't it.
I should know." and procedes to outline the release dates of products for
TNE that fall below critical on my interest to cost ratio. We all know we can
add six months to the release date for most of them anyway.
	Maliszewski presents "Six Patrons" next in classical format. Reasonably
OK stuff, but as most of this could be plausibly set in modern Yugoslavia
it doesn't really fit my particular campaign.
	Ditto for Clayton Bush's "Toraago" adventure which makes too many
assumptions. Sort of "Your plane crashes outside of Sverdelosk/Yekatrinaburg..."
	The "Traveller News Service" really did make me puke. It was a full
page of complete gibberish. Sort of like typing an executable file. This
infuriated me. "How dare they!" So they killed the Imperium. Devoting a
*full page* in Challenge (and how much does a full page of advertisment in
that magazine cost?) to lampooning it was certainly onanastically dancing
on the grave.
	Lastly we have "Signal GK and the Virus" by Dave "Bwana" Nilsen
himself. For those not in the know there was a Miller-Kieth module
"Signal GK" in which the players deal with intelligent microchips that,
somewhat implausably, evolved on this planet. If all goes as planned
it all remains secret. "So", say the players, "the virus couldn't have
happened in my universe because no-one knew about these chips."
	Well "Darlin' Dave" (as he labels himself in the next piece of
pure wank about a postal quiz) quashes all this with some sort of
convoluted (implausable) story involving different branches of Imperial
espionage working at cross purposes which was the "real" cause fo the
promulgation of the virus. Sounds rather like the FBI, CIA, DEA, NSC, ...
Give me a bucket!

	The conclusion I have gained from this whole sad episode is that
Dave Nilsen hates Mark Miller. When everyone at GDW lost interest in
Traveller, except faithful Mark, who got booted out, it looked like it
was landed in the lap of "Darlin' Dave Bwana" and told "We know you never
liked Mark. Take his creation and rub his face in it." So he got out
his little model paints, all in trendiest black and labled Nihilistic,
Fatalistic, World-weary, and so forth, and set to work with grim delight.
	I came across this blurb in the back of an old Paranoia Press
supplement for Traveller:

		For the science-fiction fan who finishes a
		    novel only to wonder what happens next...
		For the fan who wishes they could be there,
		    if only for a few minutes...
		When just reading isn't enough...
		                   ... there is Traveller

*That* is my Traveller. I could not better put it. Endless posibilities
in a limitless world. The bright joy and wonder. Shining spaceships,
dubious traders, mysterious aliens.
	But then, that was then.
	"Star Wars" was still new. "Close Encounters" just out. "E.T." a
coming attraction. We tried to not remember Vietnam and ignore the
Cold War. The Millenium Falcon bravely fought as the Empire Stuck Back.
	What do we have now? Russia breaks into ever smaller and smaller
pieces, Yugoslavia crawls and eats itself like a maggot ridden course,
The New World Order/Era allows high-tech nations to kill five figures of people
while suffering only double digit casualties, Somalia remains at law level
zero dispite the Imperial Garrison.
	Why has the game I so much respected come to look like the world of
the politicans I respect so little? Is The Great American Guilt Complex over
the State of the World more than just a myth? Does this represent how it is
being internalised even as far as the games industry?
	I *don't* play Traveller for escapism. My world has its little
Lebanons, its Tianamen Squares. It also has its Eiffel Towers, its
Amsterdams, its Londons and its Stonehenges. It is easier to see in
Europe the whole variety of the tapestry of soceities rather than the
CNN-fed hackers in GDW who have forgotten how to paint in all but one
colour.

	The blurb is right. You used to be able to user Traveller to explore
beyond the endings of books, to live out films past the happy ending and
see what problems being married to a princess entail. What can be done with
the New World Era?
	Most Traveller players now were still on their first set of teeth when
Star Wars came out. Where do they look to now for their role models? Can you
now play The Sandman? The Terminator?

------------------------------

Bundle: 501
Archive-Message-Number: 6085
Subject: Looking for some old stuff...
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 13:06:20 CDT
From: goldman@orac.cray.com (Goldman of Chaos -- postmaster CRI-US)
Reply-To: goldman@orac.cray.com

To round out my collection of Classic Traveller stuff I need the
following:

	Journal of the Traveller's Aid Society #1
	Challenge #25, #28
	The Traveller's Digest #1, #2, #3, #18

Origionals or photocopies are okay, I'm more interested in the
information rather than the collector's value.  Other than the above I
believe that I have everything else.

Matt
- --
Matthew Goldman  E-mail: goldman@orac.cray.com Work: (612) 683-3061

My day today? Nothing major, just Xenon base gone, Scorpio gone,
Tarrant dead, Tarrant alive and then I found out Blake sold us out.

------------------------------

Bundle: 501
Archive-Message-Number: 6086
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 20:33:15 -0400
From: <cs911408@ariel.yorku.ca>
Subject: Traveller PBEM Question


Hail Travellers!

I am looking for the Email address of the people who Admin. the Traveller PBEM..
I have lost their address, and I need to contact them ASAP.

Please reply ASAP..

Thanks..

	-Shalom Zaidfeld
	-Traveller

------------------------------

Bundle: 501
Archive-Message-Number: 6087
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 18:52:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: nosnhoJ enaD <dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov>
Subject: 20th Anniversary Musings...

As one of the Traveller players who still had his first set of teeth when
Star Wars came out (and being an American to boot), I feel the need to
throw my Cr0.02 into the fire.  I think Jo Jaquinta is somewhat right about
the Great American Guilt complex, but I'm not convinced that the current
Traveller trends are really a side effect of it.  I, for one, have Zero
Interest in playing the Terminator in a game.  The movies were only mildly
entertaining as Science Fiction, being more of an excuse to use special
effects to show robots getting the tar beat out of 'em ("Takes a licking,
Keeps on Ticking").

Although Star Wars was probably the seminal Science Fiction event of my
formative years, I soon graduated to Asimov, Heinlein, and Tolkien.  In my
younger days, Foundation, Space Cadet, and Citizen of the Galaxy were
probably my favorite SF books, as well as anything with a Robot in it :).
Traveller used to be a game that reflected "hard" science fiction.
Unfortunately, the truth of the matter is that Hard SF is a Niche market.
I honestly believe that the current trend towards Combat-Heavy, grim, dark
RPGs is an expression of the same trend in Movies, TV, Comic books, and
all other sorts of media.  I mean, I have no interest in reading the
various X-comic books from Marvel because they're drivel.  However, they
sell well.  Somebody is buying them.  I think that GDW is simply hopping
on this bandwagon, hoping for higher profits from the 'More Blood, Less
Dialogue' crowd while more or less ignoring the established customer base.
They do make some concessions to us (after all, we *can* still use the TNE
for a 'classic' campaign), but we are, I suspect, a side concern...

I dunno, maybe I'm not giving GDW enough credit.  Loren has mentioned that
'many people' are extremely overjoyed with the new setting and direction.
However, I don't think I've seen or heard from *one person* who has this
opinion.  Either these gushing fans are (IMHO) incredibly clueless (ie,
have tastes in gaming universes in violent disagreement with my own, which
is, of course, the most informed POV in existence) or are from the
aforementioned 'More Blood, Less Dialogue' crowd.

I suspect that, for the most part, the TML is made up of generally older,
'More Mature' fans, whose tastes in gaming do not, in general, reflect
those of the wider gaming audience (At least here in the US, the wider
gaming audience is primarily made up of males in their teens who
rabidly advocate their opinions on the high quality of AD&D as a
role-playing system or who spend time optimizing their Shadowrun
characters :/)

Dane

traveller@llnl.gov   djohnson@willamette.edu

TNS Stringer, Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8  Hi    514 Na  G2 V)
My opinions are those of my fuzz-brained, cat-sniffing Norwegian Elkhound.


------------------------------
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 502  6088 28-Sep-1993 Palmer T. Davis  2300 ship design questions << A few que
 502  6089 28-Sep-1993 Mike Basinger    Traveller:The New Era opinions << Being
 502  6090 29-Sep-1993 b.woods6@genie.  Re: 20th Anniversary Challenge <<
 502  6091 29-Sep-1993 Goldman of Chao  TML nightly: Msgs 6084-6085 V61#20 (fwd
 502  6092 29-Sep-1993 Mark Urbin       BL combat tactics << This discussion is
 502  6093 29-Sep-1993 ANTHONY KAY BAG  Re: Challenge 70 <<  hummmm, bit quiet
 502  6094 29-Sep-1993 Steve Gibbons    << The subject was left blank on purpos
 502  6095 29-Sep-1993 John Driver      re:  Traveller:The New Era opinions <<
 502  6096 30-Sep-1993 Ron Dawson       Challenge 70, TNE, and what the heck is
 502  6097 30-Sep-1993 Adrian Hurt      Re: TNE << nosnhoJ enaD <dane@retzlaff.
 502  6098 30-Sep-1993 RJR96326@VAX1.U  Multi-Reply << Just a list of responses
 502  6099 30-Sep-1993 mgood@MIT.EDU    Dark Traveller << I agree with the writ
 502  6100 30-Sep-1993 Goldman of Chao  Traveller: Disk 1 << Anthony Baggaley
 502  6101 30-Sep-1993 Derek Wildstar   How big is a missile? << Brilliant Lanc
 502  6102 01-Oct-1993 PPUGLIESE@pimac  Gripes << To all those who are saying t
 502  6103 01-Oct-1993 C. Harald Koch   Re: Steve's message << Good message!  M
 502  6104 01-Oct-1993 Mark Urbin       Fusion rockets in atmosphere << I was c

------------------------------

Bundle: 502
Archive-Message-Number: 6088
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 22:57:44 -0400
From: ptd2@po.CWRU.Edu (Palmer T. Davis)
Subject: 2300 ship design questions
Reply-To: ptd2@po.CWRU.Edu (Palmer T. Davis)



A few questions about 2300 ship design:

  * How much do tight-beam (remote object) communicators cost?  How much
    volume, mass, and surface area do they take up?  The pylon rules allude
    to the purchase and placement of communicators, but I can't find anything
    further about them.

  * Likewise, how much do workstations cost?  Accomodations?  Life support?
    There is an indirect cost in hull material and stutterwarp efficiency,
    but I can't believe that they're completely free beyond that.

  * Where does the power for weapons and active sensors come from?  Is there
    a power requirement from the main power plant?

- --
Palmer T. Davis      ___      UN-altered REPRODUCTION and DISSEMINATION of
<ptd2@po.cwru.edu>   \X/   this IMPORTANT Information is ENCOURAGED.

------------------------------

Bundle: 502
Archive-Message-Number: 6089
From: Mike Basinger <dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Traveller:The New Era opinions
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 1993 23:42:05 -0500 (EST)

Being fairly new to the mailing list I was wondering what people here
think of the New Era. Was the change to the game welcome, or do people
still wish for the old days of "Classic" Traveller.

Also, I posted this last week to the mailing list, but I think it got
losted. What Sci-Fi novels would people say are simular to the Traveller
Universe (any era). I have been told;

Tubbs: Dumarest of Terra Series
Niven: Man-Kzin War Series
Asimov: First 2 of the Foundation Series

Any other suggestion would be appreciated

Thanks,
Mike
- --
D. Michael Basinger: 	Not speaking for Indiana University
			dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
			dbasinge@arapahoe.ucs.indiana.edu (NeXT Mail)

------------------------------

Bundle: 502
Archive-Message-Number: 6090
From: b.woods6@genie.geis.com
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 09:46:00 BST
Subject: Re: 20th Anniversary Challenge


 In Archive-Message-Number:  6084, jaymin@maths.tcd.ie (Jo Jaquinta) writes:
 >
 >The first thing I hit was _Ask Commodore Bwana_.  "As a fictitious
 >[sic] amalgamation of numerous letters and phone calls, I would
 >like to know..."  My eyebrow raised, and I thought about sticking
 >my fingers down my throat.

 >The "Traveller News Service" really did make me puke.  It was a full
 >page of complete gibberish.  Sort of like typing an executable file.
 >This infuriated me.  "How dare they!"

     We should probably bear in mind that different viewpoints are
present here.  I bought a copy of Challenge 70 last week, and when I
got to the Traveller News Service page, I almost fell over laughing.
I thought it was hysterically funny.  I told the fun folk at GDW that
on GEnie, too.

     It seems to me that being unamused by the joke is understandable,
as senses of humor differ.  Being angry, however, strikes me as being
a bit extreme.

 >So they killed the Imperium.

     They killed *their* Imperium.  This is an important point.  In *my*
Traveller games, the rules system changed, but the background didn't.
The Rebellion never happened, the Virus isn't going to happen, and
technology will continue to develop and improve unabated by any
catastrophe.  In my universe, the average tech level of the Imperium
is right around 17.  You see, I *like* technology.  ;-)

     I haven't bought a copy of TNE yet.  I'm waiting for the boxed
set.  I may or may not use the game system.  I won't, however, use the
background.  There will be no Virus in my game--I'm the GM, and I can
do whatever I want.  ;-)

     That *is* the whole point, isn't it?  You can do anything you
want.  There's no reason to be constrained by the published materials
if you don't want to.  Why get angry over something that doesn't
affect you if you don't let it?

 >quashes all this with some sort of convoluted (implausable) story
 >involving different branches of Imperial espionage working at
 >cross purposes which was the "real" cause fo the promulgation of
 >the virus.  Sounds rather like the FBI, CIA, DEA, NSC...

     Oh, on the contrary--all *too* plausible.  It happens all the
time.  I've worked for various branches of the US government in the
past (civilian and military), and I've seen it happen.  The right hand
department has no clue what the left hand department is doing, because
the *other* left hand department has fed it disinformation.

     Yes, it really *is* that byzantine on a day-to-day basis.

 >For the science-fiction fan who finishes a
 >    novel only to wonder what happens next...
 >For the fan who wishes they could be there,
 >    if only for a few minutes...
 >When just reading isn't enough...
 >                   ...there is Traveller
 >
 >*That* is my Traveller.  I could not better put it.  Endless
 >posibilities in a limitless world.  The bright joy and wonder.
 >Shining spaceships, dubious traders, mysterious aliens.
 >But then, that was then.

     Still is, if you want it to be.  The game is only as limited as
your imagination.  From what I've seen and remember (there've been a
couple of breaks, but I'm one of the original members of the TML),
that's not very limited at all.  Just exercise your creativity neurons
a little and build a new world.

 >Why has the game I so much respected come to look like the world
 >of the politicans I respect so little?  Is The Great American
 >Guilt Complex over the State of the World more than just a myth?
 >Does this represent how it is being internalized even as far as the
 >games industry?

     It is a myth.  Let's be serious, shall we?  The average 'Murrican
doesn't waste one split microsecond of guilt over the state of the
world.  Frankly, we're a bunch of natural isolationists.  Sure,
there's a vocal (*very* vocal, unfortunately) minority that noises off
incessantly, but for the most part, we don't care.

     No, actually, it's general 1990s pessimism speaking.  The world
is a festering mass of fecal matter, and all we can expect in the
future is more of the same on the long slide downhill into chaos.
That's where Virus came from.

 >I *don't* play Traveller for escapism.

     Um, well, okay.  I *do* play Traveller for escapism (it *is* a

- --
     Brent Woods

     INTERNET:  b.woods6@genie.geis.com
     USNAIL:    4419 Myrtle Grove Dr.  /  Indianapolis IN  46236
     MABELL:    +1 (317) 895-8690


------------------------------

Bundle: 502
Archive-Message-Number: 6091
Subject: TML nightly: Msgs 6084-6085 V61#20 (fwd)
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 9:11:59 CDT
From: goldman@orac.cray.com (Goldman of Chaos -- postmaster CRI-US)
Reply-To: goldman@orac.cray.com

Jo Jaquinta said the following:

I really liked your article Jo.  Thanks for a very clearly written
message.

> Bundle: 501
> Archive-Message-Number: 6084
> From: Jo Jaquinta <jaymin@maths.tcd.ie>
> Subject: 20th anniversary challange
> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 8:40:56 BST
>
> 	The conclusion I have gained from this whole sad episode is that
> Dave Nilsen hates Mark Miller. When everyone at GDW lost interest in
> Traveller, except faithful Mark, who got booted out, it looked like it
> was landed in the lap of "Darlin' Dave Bwana" and told "We know you never
> liked Mark. Take his creation and rub his face in it."

Does anyone know the real story of why Mark Miller left GDW?  Is there
anyone left at GDW who can spell correctly?  Did Mark take the editors
with him or were they killed in the crossfire?  Is Mark dug in at a
mysterious fortress waiting to be visited by the "Arrival Vengance?"
Is Dave Nilsen realy Lucan?  Does the dark area around Capital/Core
represent GDW's future?  Anyone interested in chipping in to reprint
Classic Traveller after the copyrights expire?  By that time we could
distribute it on Compact Disks!  Perhaps we could get someone to OEM
the Traveller Workstation!  It would have to be black with red
lettering, portable with a very high resolution color screen.  It
could be bundled with the Traveller CD and the Traveller's Referee
Toolkit.

The Traveller Workstation, the Traveller CD, and the Traveller's
Referee Toolkit wouldn't be hard to do with TODAY's available
hardware.  And the names are my ideas, so there!

Matt

- --
Matthew Goldman  E-mail: goldman@orac.cray.com Work: (612) 683-3061

My day today? Nothing major, just Xenon base gone, Scorpio gone,
Tarrant dead, Tarrant alive and then I found out Blake sold us out.

------------------------------

Bundle: 502
Archive-Message-Number: 6092
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 10:30:26 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@interlan.interlan.com>
Subject: BL combat tactics


This discussion is going a bit beyond the Pocket ML charter, so I've added the
TML to the distribution, perhaps this thread can migrate.
  The idea of a drone `missle carrier' is a great one.  Don't forget that the
Rampart fighter has USL docking rings for 4 missles.  We still need to know
the volume of missles though, since the addition of them will effect the
performace of the ship.
  Another idea I has was for a `ghost' ship.  Small vessel, ECM, big folding
array passive sensors, lots of batteries.  Switch off the fusion drive just
before exiting jump space.  Use the vector you had coming out of jump and coast
for awhile.  Use the batteries for life support, the passive sensor array and
one computer.  Keep the speed down to 3Gs or less and you can do with out
the compensators.  Your ship is a cold hunk of ECM coated metal drifting in
system with big ears.
  Hopefully, with FF&S, a simular drone could be built as well.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Urbin  Racal-Interlan   Boxborough, MA  These opinions are mine.
"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system
of government.  Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the
masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony."   --  Dennis
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Bundle: 502
Archive-Message-Number: 6093
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 15:22:25 BST
From: ANTHONY KAY BAGGALEY <MCDAPAB@cms.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Challenge 70

 hummmm, bit quiet around here isn't it?

   I agree with everything Jo Jaquinta wrote about C70 and TNE, yet again one
  of us is so annoyed by a GDW product that we have to post some more reasons
  why TNE is rubbish compared to Classic Traveller (I'm tempted to go through
  the bundles and collect all of them together, to look at when I'm tempted to
  buy a TNE product, but my account doesn't have that much memory:)).
   The TNS page almost ruined *my* carpet as well, it felt like a special
  delivery kick in the gonads to everyone who liked old Traveller, and the rest
  of the stuff wasn't much better. I like the point that most Rebellion or TNE
  scenarios are closer to CNN than SF. We are VERY out of touch with how GDW
  thinks.
   Anyway, they saved the best for last- in full colour, on the back page, the
  ad for BENDY ROBOT TOYS. I know Role-players are immature but that's going a
  bit far. It's either 1) Well done GDW for fooling the manufacturer into
                          thinking RPGers will be interested.
                       2) A sign of Challenges new market. (Can we send off for
                          Uncle Bwana badges and masks soon?)

   End of This Months Rant.

    And Now.......

   Another Reason The Virus Never Happened!!!!!!!

   I've been waiting for someone to mention this since Survival Margin came
  out, but nobody brought it up....

   The 'AI' transponders were approved for use in 1088, and were phased in
  over a 12 year period ( Survival Margin doesn't DEFINITELY say that it was
  started in 1088, leaving GDW a cop-out, but it implies it). That means the
  tamper-proof transponders were in place by 1100, which is not exactly true
  according to The Traveller Adventure, where the PCs get a programable Trans-
  ponder, and several other references to fake-transponders even later. Thus
  the Transponders never existed...
   OK, so the Virus didn't need the Transponders, but it certainly shows how
  little notice GDW paid to the old Traveller material, and that TNE is not
  the same timeline as Classic Traveller.
   (all this depends on there not being a TNS which gives a later date for the
  introduction....I've been half right before....)

                    Your's, or anyone else's
                         Anthony K.
    Good Thought For the Day:
      There are a whole new generation of players who DON'T know all GDWs and
     FASAs adventures by heart (backwards).

------------------------------

Bundle: 502
Archive-Message-Number: 6094
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 19:38:03 MST
From: Steve Gibbons <steve@nereid.sunquest.com>
Reply-To: steve@sunquest.com

The subject was left blank on purpose.  Sort of a commentary on _some_ of the
threads that have been propogating here, lateley.

Come on, people!  Traveller (whatever the incarnation) is a role-playing
game.  Now, let's look at each of those words one at a time...

It's a game.  It's supposed to be fun.

It's a game.  The rules aren't laws, they're guidelines.  If you don't like a
guideline, call it optional, and don't opt for it.

It's a game.  It's not real.  It's fiction.  Very little in the game will
greatly change the real-world (except for a few pocket-books.)

Playing.  (go back to "It's supposed to be fun.")

Playing.  Don't take it _too_ seriously.

Playing.  "It's not who wins, it's _how_ you play."

Role.  (Here's where I really get on the soap-box.)  What's _your_ role in
making things better?  Don't like a rule?  Come up with an alternative, and
_share_ it.  Don't like the background?  Come up with an alternative, and
_share_ it.  Notice a typu/misprint?  Point it out.  Don't like the structure/
organization/printing/pricing of a product?  Tell GDW.   Hate the lack of
scenarios/adventures that you can relate to?  Write one.  ...But don't _just_
complain about how you don't like it (whatever "it" is,) direct your energy.
Make "it" better.  Use that imagination of yours, that you were probably trying
to spark in the first place by playing an RPG.

I'll shut-up now, 'cause I've probably P.O.d half of the list at this point.
I apologize for being pedantic and repetative, but I just _had_ to get this
off of my chest.

- --
Steve@Sunquest.COM

------------------------------

Bundle: 502
Archive-Message-Number: 6095
Subject: re:  Traveller:The New Era opinions
From: oxomoxo@netlink.nix.com (John Driver)
Reply-To: oxomoxo@netlink.nix.com
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 19:40:55 PDT

Mike Basinger writes:
> Also, I posted this last week to the mailing list, but I
> think it got losted.

  Yeah, I hate it when I loose things.

> Tubbs: Dumarest of Terra Series
> Niven: Man-Kzin War Series
> Asimov: First 2 of the Foundation Series

  E.E. Doc Smith's books seem to be a primary inspiration..Sword
  Worlds came from this source I believe.

BTW, for those of you who are trying to integrate the Virus (which I
think is rather well thought out, despite the negative mumblings I've
heard a lot of) into your campaigns, read the book "ME" by Thomas T.
Thomas.  No, everyone should read this book.  It's really cool,
showing what the world might look like to a computer program.



- --
INTERNET:  oxomoxo@netlink.nix.com (John Driver)
UUCP:   ...!ryptyde!netlink!oxomoxo
Network Information eXchange * Public Access in San Diego, CA (619) 453-1115

------------------------------

Bundle: 502
Archive-Message-Number: 6096
From: rdawson@business.carleton.ca (Ron Dawson)
Subject: Challenge 70, TNE, and what the heck is around core
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 0:47:17 EDT

I've long been a "lurker" of the TML, but in the past while I was
looming at Challenge #70 and was a bit intrigued by the articles
therein.  Although I had not been a fan of the changes to the
"official" Traveller Universe, I did find that Travellers News Service
with the gibberish pretty cute.  I wonder if there is some kind of virus
induced pattern to the garbled feed.

Although I agree with the opinion that the destruction of the Imperium
by means of this virus was a bit lame, after recently reading through
survival margin, I'm willing to give the new setting a chance.

The view that the New Era reflects the pessimism of the 90s is an
interesting point.  It seems that most of GDWs  games are going
down that dark road.. dark conspiracy, twilight and now even traveller.
Ah well.. maybe it's appropriate that the games people play reflect the
trends in society.

I'm curious what the rationale is for everyone (e.g. Zhos, hivers, etc)
adopting the same transponder technology over such a relatively short
period of time.

My biggest pondering though is saved for the big black sphere around
core/capital.  Is there anything in Survival Margin or the New Era rules that
suggests what happened here?  Or when it happened?  Perhaps I've missed
something.  Or more probably, it's a supplement down the road.

- - Ron Dawson

+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+
| Internet: rdawson@business.carleton.ca          |An ni nach cluinn cluas    |
| Bitnet  : Ron_Dawson@Carleton.CA                |  cha ghluais cridhe       |
| UUCP    : ...uunet!ccs.carleton.ca!rdawson      |                           |
| Voice   :  (613) 788-2600 ext. 1310             |What the ear does not hear |
|            (613) 237-4741                       |  will not move the heart  |
+-------------------------------------------------+---------------------------+

------------------------------

Bundle: 502
Archive-Message-Number: 6097
From: adrian@cee.hw.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: TNE
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 8:57:07 WET DST

nosnhoJ enaD <dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov> setirw:
>
> I honestly believe that the current trend towards Combat-Heavy, grim, dark
> RPGs is an expression of the same trend in Movies, TV, Comic books, and
> all other sorts of media.  I mean, I have no interest in reading the
> various X-comic books from Marvel because they're drivel.  However, they
> sell well.  Somebody is buying them.  I think that GDW is simply hopping
> on this bandwagon, hoping for higher profits from the 'More Blood, Less
> Dialogue' crowd while more or less ignoring the established customer base.
> They do make some concessions to us (after all, we *can* still use the TNE
> for a 'classic' campaign), but we are, I suspect, a side concern...

The sad thing is the loss of diversity.  The new background seems to offer
no alternative except a hard, grim, "More Blood, Less Dialogue" setting.
In the old background, if you wanted such an adventure, or even campaign,
there were places for it.  Efate seemed to be a paradise for such people -
no law, high tech (well, high enough, anyway - you can get PGMP's and
battle-dress) and loads of terrorist scum or Imperialist oppressors to
blow away, depending on whose side you chose to join.  Alternatively, you
could play on more civilised worlds, such as Regina.  The key thing was
that you had the choice.

b.woods6@genie.geis.com writes:
>
>      I haven't bought a copy of TNE yet.  I'm waiting for the boxed
> set.  I may or may not use the game system.  I won't, however, use the
> background.  There will be no Virus in my game--I'm the GM, and I can
> do whatever I want.  ;-)

You aren't going to use the background, and you might not use the rules.
What's the point of buying TNE, then? :-)

goldman@orac.cray.com (Goldman of Chaos -- postmaster CRI-US) writes:
>
>				Perhaps we could get someone to OEM
> the Traveller Workstation!  It would have to be black with red
> lettering, portable with a very high resolution color screen.  It
> could be bundled with the Traveller CD and the Traveller's Referee
> Toolkit.

Better yet, let's have some Traveller software for pocket computers such
as the HP95 and the Psion Series 3.  Oh, I forgot, pocket computers are
TL 10, so they don't exist yet. :-)

- --
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cee
 UUCP: ..!uknet!cee.hw.ac.uk!adrian  |  ARPA:  adrian@cee.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Bundle: 502
Archive-Message-Number: 6098
Date:    Thu, 30 Sep 1993 4:03:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: RJR96326@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU
Subject: Multi-Reply

Just a list of responses, that's all:

I own naught but Megatraveller. From what I've seen of CT and heard of TNE,
I would prefer the former over the latter. I didn't mind the Rebellion setting,
but I also considered "backdating" my campaign to pre-Rebellion times.

I know nothing of the internal politics at GDW. I didn't even know Mark was
gone. Furthermore, I can't comment on Challenge's quality because my nearest
store has stopped carrying it. If anyone would care to enlighten me, please
do.

I have to agree that 1)the trend toward nihilistic 'dark future/fantasy"
role-playing campaigns is rather disturbing, at least because it's becoming
so prevalent and 2)that if you don't like it, rewrite it. Use the game
mechanics, unless they are so intertwined into the background as to be
unworkable outside of it. (I don't see Cthulhu as being used for anything
other than Cthulhu or other Horror genres). Personally, I favor GURPS.
(BTW, where's the GURPS 2300 book?)

Shadowrun. No one seems to like this much. I wasn't too impressed and was
rather cynical of the background and game mechanics when I began playing
with my friends. Many faux pas as I learned what worked and what didn't.
I still refer to it as "Yahtzee, the role-playing game". Nonetheless, I
have "gotten into" it, at least insofar as buying the main rules and magic
supplement, and having accumulated about a meg and a half of material posted
by other on the net. I have examined each carefully for game balance and
background suitability. I have also corresponded with a number of people
who are equally as articulate, mature, and concerned with the role-playing
aspects of Shadowrun as those on this list. (I have also encountered the
power-gaming "munchkins"). I have to say that it's ('it' being the quality
of a game, rules, or background) lies in the players, not the writers; and
the quality of life lies in the people who live it, not the circumstances they
find themselves in.


J Roberson

------------------------------

Bundle: 502
Archive-Message-Number: 6099
From: mgood@MIT.EDU
Subject: Dark Traveller
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 10:16:34 EDT


I agree with the writers to TML that have said that GDW is part of a trend in
the entertainment industry (Movies, Books, TV, Games) towards darker, more
violent stuff.  I can't blame them, though, because it's probably what they
need to do to survive.

I'm new to the list, so I don't know if there has been any discussion of
Space:1889.  This game had the hopeful themes of Edgar Rice Burroughs and
Victorian Sci-Fi.  I really like the game.  It was, by all accounts, a
financial disacter for GDW.  A couple of industry people I spoke with
thought that it had almost bankrupted GDW.

So, any company with a strong sense of survival will learn from
these lessons.  I can't think of a currently marketed game with
the Hi-Tech Wonderland theme... even Star Wars has that Dark Empire
thing now...  Even the comic book game, Champions, no has a Dark Champions
suppliment.

Dane said:
>I dunno, maybe I'm not giving GDW enough credit.  Loren has mentioned that
>'many people' are extremely overjoyed with the new setting and direction.
>However, I don't think I've seen or heard from *one person* who has this
>opinion.  Either these gushing fans are (IMHO) incredibly clueless (ie,
>have tastes in gaming universes in violent disagreement with my own, which
>is, of course, the most informed POV in existence) or are from the
>aforementioned 'More Blood, Less Dialogue' crowd.

Hmmmm...  well, I guess I'm the one person.  And this is hearsay, but the
people in my gaming group are pretty excited about it too.  Let's see, am I
"incredibly clueless"?  Can't rule it out :)  My campaign currently is sort
of an interactive screenplay for a Sci-Fi series -- Dialog, with occasional
violence.  I'll send more info about it to the list later.

As other people have said, you can use the rules to run whatever kind
of campaign you like.  Don't like the rules? Make your own.  The only
people this change REALLY, SERIOUSLY effects are people who want to
write Traveller Adventures for publication.  GDW's interest in pre-Rebellion
or alternative universes is probably pretty low, but who knows?  Has
anyone asked them?

But then again, I thought the TNS page in 70 was funny.

As to Jo's
 >*That* is my Traveller.  I could not better put it.  Endless
 >posibilities in a limitless world.  The bright joy and wonder.
 >Shining spaceships, dubious traders, mysterious aliens.
 >But then, that was then.

This sounds like a perfect description of Space:1889.  I'm the only person
I know who bought any of the stuff for this game, and I bought it all.  I
had a fun campaign.  GDW almost went bankrupt.  (Anybody know where I
can get the unpublished Venus Sourcebook?)

They have to do what they have to do to survive.  As to the writers
who are unhappy about the Virus, just think of it as another Alien
life form.  Heck, in my campaign, one of the PCs is a Virus.

And about the bendy robot toys: I was pretty surprised myself, but other
signs in the issue (70) point to a real problem in 1) ad revenues or
2) publishible material.  The most glaring instance of this was the ad
that said "This could have been a Challenge ad", but there were others:
the "Starship Combat" ad, for instance.

What they really need is an "Absolut Traveller" Ad, designed much the
same way as Goldman of Chaos's "Traveller Workstation".

I have a posting for an alternate anti-grav technology, but this list
seems to be pretty serious...

I also finally worked out the penetration system.  Yuck!  I'm working on
a fix...

Matt GOODMAN, not GOLDMAN, not of Chaos, but of Entropy.


------------------------------

Bundle: 502
Archive-Message-Number: 6100
Subject: Traveller: Disk 1
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 14:09:01 CDT
From: goldman@orac.cray.com (Goldman of Chaos -- postmaster CRI-US)
Reply-To: goldman@orac.cray.com

Anthony Baggaley  said the following:
> Bundle: 502
> Archive-Message-Number: 6093
> Date: Wed, 29 Sep 93 15:22:25 BST
> From: ANTHONY KAY BAGGALEY <MCDAPAB@cms.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: Challenge 70
>
>    OK, so the Virus didn't need the Transponders, but it certainly shows how
>   little notice GDW paid to the old Traveller material, and that TNE is not
>   the same timeline as Classic Traveller.

	Good point, like anyone with a reprogrammable transponder
	is going to put one of the new fancy tamper-proof transponders
	onto their ship.  How many ships were out there
	during Real Traveller days?  I don't have my
	references handy; however, it shouldn't be too hard
	to make up some ship numbers based upon the chance
	of encountering various ship types insystem and at
	starports of various classes.  There were a huge
	number of ships, replacing their transponders even
	in a 12 year time is a daunting task.  Even managing
	to distribute that number of transponders would
	really be a pain.  Scott 2G Kellogg, any ideas?


>     Good Thought For the Day:
>       There are a whole new generation of players who DON'T know all GDWs and
>      FASAs adventures by heart (backwards).

	I built the slip cover for a CD case today.  Does
	anyone have a bitmap, eps, ps, gif, jpeg, tiff, or
	other computerized Imperial sunburst?  Not the
	broken one, the real one.  I'd like to add it to my
	CD disk case cover.

	I was thinking of a set of Compact Disks with the
	following labels:

		Traveller Disk 1: Rules
		Traveller Disk 2: Supplements
		Traveller Disk 3: Adventures
		Traveller Disk 4: Articles & Ideas
		Traveller Disk 5: People & Places
		Traveller Disk 6: Ships & Vehicles
		Traveller Disk 7: Index

	Any suggestions about other disk titles to add?

	Matt
- --
Matthew Goldman  E-mail: goldman@orac.cray.com Work: (612) 683-3061

My day today? Nothing major, just Xenon base gone, Scorpio gone,
Tarrant dead, Tarrant alive and then I found out Blake sold us out.

------------------------------

Bundle: 502
Archive-Message-Number: 6101
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 93 18:00:30 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@quark.qrc.com>
Subject: How big is a missile?


Brilliant Lances tells us that a standard starship missile masses(*) seven
tons.  It also tells us that you can store extra missiles in your starship's
cargo hold, and gives a rule for the time it takes to get the missile out of
the hold and into the missile launcher.  Brilliant Lances does *not* tell us
how much volume that missile takes up, either stored in the cargo hold or
installed on a grapple or docking ring.  The volume of the missile is rather
required in order to be able to design vehicles which carry missiles on
grapples or docking rings.  Presumably the missile will require slightly
more volume when carried in the hold, due to packaging materials, pallets
and similar considerations.

To put a bit of perspective on this question, I went looking through Peter
Alway's new book, _Rockets of the World_ (excellent, by the way: 198
dimensioned and color keyed drawings of 133 different rockets from 14
different countries, including the USSR's N-1 moon rocket, short histories
of each rocket, 179 photographs, again including the N-1.  ISBN 09627876-2-0)
for a sounding rocket that was about 7000kg.

I found one: the Viking Model 2, a sounding rocket designed by the Naval
Research Laboratory.  Its loaded weight was 6800kg, and it carried a 230kg
payload to an altitude of up to 252km.  The rocket was 45 inches in diameter,
and 505 inches long (including a 121 inch conic nose cone).

wildstar@quark.qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the New Era

------------------------------

Bundle: 502
Archive-Message-Number: 6102
Date: 01 Oct 1993 02:02:46 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Subject: Gripes

To all those who are saying to Jo, & indirectly to me, that
we should just shut up & play Trav any way we like I'd like
to clarify my point-of-view.

My major gripe is that there will be, in all likelihood, no
more supplements, & probably no material at all, that will be
usable by me. For me this is a *MAJOR* loss & one that I will
be incapable of replacing.

I think this reason alone is ample cause to bitch. The fact that
bitching is about all I *can* do just makes it all the more ir-
ritating.

Phil Pugliese

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu




------------------------------

Bundle: 502
Archive-Message-Number: 6103
From: chk@alias.com (C. Harald Koch)
Subject: Re: Steve's message
Date: 	Fri, 1 Oct 1993 12:14:01 -0400

Good message!  My sentiments, exactly.

- --
C. Harald Koch, Network Analyst | "We are sorry, but the number you have
Alias Research Inc. Toronto, ON |  dialed is imaginary. Please rotate your
chk@alias.com                   |  phone 90 degrees and try again."
chk@utcc.utoronto.ca            |-David Grabiner <grabiner@zariski.harvard.edu>

------------------------------

Bundle: 502
Archive-Message-Number: 6104
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 93 12:03:52 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@interlan.interlan.com>
Subject: Fusion rockets in atmosphere

I was cleaning up my hard disk and found this gem from when I received the
`skunk-works' mailing list.  It reminded me of the thread a month or so ago
about using the fusion powered rockets as weapons.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

To: skunk-works@ecn.purdue.edu
Subject: Project Pluto - nuclear powered missile
Date: Tue, 20 Oct 92 16:59:01 -0500
From: "Philip R. Moyer" <prm@ecn.purdue.edu>


Are you one of those people who think nobody would ever design a nuclear
propulsion system for use on Earth?  Read on....

SLAM - Supersonic Low Altitude Missile

The design called for a missle powered by a nuclear ramjet and was named
Project Pluto.  The project was started at Lawrence Livermore National
Labs on January 1, 1957.

Pluto was to be launched from ground by solid rocket boosters until
clear of friendly territory at at cruise speed, then the reactor was
turned on.  Flight plan was to cruise in circles over an ocean until
the "go" signal was received, then dive to low level and penetrate the
target country.  The reactor was unshielded, so it was highly radioactive.
It also spewed fission products out the back as it flew.

Planned speed was Mach 3.

Some project team members were:
        Ted Merkle, project leader
        Ethan Platt, engineer
        Blake Myers, head of LLNL's propulsion engineering
        Harry Reynolds, project physicst for Tory
        Jim Hadley, physicist
        William Moran, fuel element production manager
        Chuck Barnett, Tory test facility director

Pluto would use terrain comparison guidance (TERCOM) and carried 12 warheads
to strike multiple targets.  The vehicle would then fly patterns around the
target country, distributing radiocative debris, until the reactor was
completely eroded and the vehicle crashed.

Engineering challenges:
        - aerodynamic pressures five times that on the X-15
        - heat erosion of the reactor and control elements
        - ingestion of rain/snow/salt air at low altitudes/high speeds

Nicknamed the "Flying Crowbar" because of its low complexity and high
durability.

Chance-Vaught had the contract for the airframe and Marquardt Aircraft had
the contract for the ramjet (minus the reactor).  Ted Merkle was responsible
for the design of the 500 MW reactor.

Nuclear ramjet efficiencies increase with temperature, so Pluto's ramjet
was designed to operate at 2500 degrees Fahrenheit.  Metals at that time
could not reliably withstand those temperatures, so the fuel elements in
the reactor were made of ceramics.  They were fabricated by the Coor's
Ceramic Company of Golden, Colorado.  [While making cermaic liners for
vats in breweries, Adolf Coors thought perhaps he was in the wrong business,
so he built a brewery next to his cermaics factory.  You may have heard of
it.... :-]   The reactor's code name was Tory.

There were many unknowns in the Tory/Marquardt design, so they built two
prototypes and tested them at the 8 square mile Site 401 at Jackass Flat in
Nevada.  Site 401 had a 2 mile autonomous railroad, a remote controlled
disassembly and analysis building, and the test stands.  To build the concrete
walls of the disassembly building, they bought an aggregate mine.  The
compressed air support structure was built of 25 miles of oil well casing.
The compressed air system was charged with compressors borrowed from the
Navy's submarine facility in Groton, Connecticut.  A five minute full power
test would require about a ton of air a minute.

Two test runs were performed.  The first, Tory-IIA, was on May 14, 1961.  The
system ran for a few seconds, and much less than it's rated power, but it
did not explode (as there was some concern it might).

Tory-IIC was tested in May of 1964.  It was started twice.  The second start
ran for five minutes, produced 513 Megawatts, and had a thrust of 35,000 lbs.

Project cancelled on July 1, 1964.  ICBMS were cheaper and faster.

Epilogue:

Ted Merkle died of liver cancer after inventing the CAT scanner to watch the
progress of his disease.

Harry Reynolds now works at Rockwell on SDI.

Jim Hadley is still at LLNL, working on detecting nuclear tests/explosions
from orbit.

The Tory reactors are entombed in Nevada, where they will remain for several
thousand years.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Urbin  Racal-Interlan   Boxborough, MA  These opinions are mine.
"You won't settle for putting Susan B. Anthony on the new dollar then?"
Justice Rehnquist, to Ruth Bader Ginsburg in a 1978 sex-discrimination case
oral argument
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 503  6105 01-Oct-1993 Derek Wildstar   Re: Dark Traveller << Steve Gibbons <st
 503  6106 01-Oct-1993 Brian Makens     Zhodani Problem?  << This little rambli
 503  6107 01-Oct-1993 James Kundert    RE: missile volume << Wildstar says:
 503  6108 01-Oct-1993 Brian Makens     Another 1889'er crawling out of the woo
 503  6109 01-Oct-1993 RJR96326@VAX1.U  Systems Analysis << First off, Phil, I
 503  6110 02-Oct-1993 James Kundert    Griping Specifically << PPUGLIESE@pimac
 503  6111 02-Oct-1993 james vassilako  BYO Imagination << Phil gripes about th
 503  6112 03-Oct-1993 RJR96326@VAX1.U  The Can << >A 3-ton missile can holds 2
 503  6113 04-Oct-1993 l.wiseman1@geni  << Hello All. Lotta traffic tonight....
 503  6114 03-Oct-1993 Dane Johnson     Tracked Vehicles... << Well, this is pr
 503  6115 03-Oct-1993 James Kundert    Re: The Can << J Roberson (RJR96326@VAX

------------------------------

Bundle: 503
Archive-Message-Number: 6105
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 93 16:00:51 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@quark.qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Dark Traveller

Steve Gibbons <steve@nereid.sunquest.com> writes:
> Role.  (Here's where I really get on the soap-box.)  What's _your_ role in
> making things better?  Don't like a rule?  Come up with an alternative, and
> _share_ it.  Don't like the background?  Come up with an alternative, and
> _share_ it.  Notice a typu/misprint?  Point it out.  Don't like the structure/
> organization/printing/pricing of a product?  Tell GDW.   Hate the lack of
> scenarios/adventures that you can relate to?  Write one.  ...But don't _just_
> complain about how you don't like it (whatever "it" is,) direct your energy.
> Make "it" better.  Use that imagination of yours, that you were probably trying
> to spark in the first place by playing an RPG.

Hear!  Hear!

Steve has got an EXCELLENT point here!  If it looks broken to you, well then
FIX it, or at least try!


rdawson@business.carleton.ca (Ron Dawson) writes:
> Although I agree with the opinion that the destruction of the Imperium
> by means of this virus was a bit lame, after recently reading through
> survival margin, I'm willing to give the new setting a chance.

This is probably a good place to mention the TML Pocket Empire discussion
group.  It was formed a little less than a year ago, and the group's
charter is to create a new, different, and interesting campaign setting
using GDW's "Official" universe, while still remaining true to as much
of the established "Classic" background material as possible.

When the group was formed, periodic updates to TML were promised; I'm
afraid that I've not been carrying through on that commitment.  However,
here is the current status of the project:

An outline for a campaign module has been written, and sent to Dave Nilsen
at GDW for comment.  Nearly all of the major worlds have been detailed, and
write-ups are available for them.  Adventure plotlines have been written,
UWP data has been prepared.  Starmaps, deckplans, and other miscellania
have been done.  Megabytes and Megabytes of conversations have passed
through our mailers.  Discussion continues; the largest area of remaining
work is to take the adventure plot outlines and flesh them out into
real, publishable adventures.
											
> The view that the New Era reflects the pessimism of the 90s is an
> interesting point.  It seems that most of GDWs  games are going
> down that dark road.. dark conspiracy, twilight and now even traveller.
> Ah well.. maybe it's appropriate that the games people play reflect the
> trends in society.

This is true more in the gaming industry that elsewhere, although I have
noticed a similar trend in fantasy and science-fiction books and films.
This may be due in part that the "dark" is easier to write: it takes a
J.R.R. Tolkien, Robert Heinlien, Arthur Clark, Edward E. Smith, a Larry
Niven, a Gene Roddenberry or George Lucas (I could name more, but my point
is that these names are only a small fraction of those writing in their
genres) to make a "bright", upbeat future where unreasonable problems have
solutions, where might does not always make right, and set an interesting
story in it.  On the other hand, there is considerable evidence that a
well-done "bright" story is even more compelling that a "dark" one: witness
the enduring popularity of these people's creations.  Roddenberry credited
Star Trek's enduring popularity to his vision of a "bright" future - things
may look dark right now, but Humanity *can*, *should*, and *will* prevail.

Classic Traveller shows signs of that kind of longevity; on the other hand,
I haven't heard anybody say how they miss MegaTraveller, and I suspect that
Traveller: The New Era hasn't got it either.  Sort of like the difference
between "Star Trek" and "Battlestar: Galactica" (if those of you younger
than 22 have no idea what "Battlestar: Galactica" was, then I rest my case).

> I'm curious what the rationale is for everyone (e.g. Zhos, hivers, etc)
> adopting the same transponder technology over such a relatively short
> period of time.

I believe the rationale is that the Imperium required prompt installation of
the "Deyo" transponders in order for foreign hulls to enter the Imperium.  Of
couse, in order to gain the benefits of the "Deyo" and to avoid duplication
of registry systems, all of them (including polities still formally at war
with the Imperium) converted to the "Deyo" system (which required importing
sealed boxes of unknown contents from their enemy, the Imperium) right away.
Yea, sure ... that's the ticket ... ;-)

A more reasonable approach might be to have dual registry systems: ships which
enter the Imperium have "Deyo" transponders installed, while most of the
ships which trade only inside their own polity don't.  Once the Virus got
loose, the transponders on the trade ships provided a convenient point of
entry.  Once familliar with alien computers, the Virus was able to take over
non-Deyo equipped ships with relative ease.

Of course, if you have trouble swallowing the Virus at all, you can always
play the New Era without it.  Simply up the date from 1201 to 2201, and state
that the wars and fragmentation of the Rebellion were sufficient to trigger
another Long Night, which the area of space around your campaign is
just recovering from (with the help of the Hivers).  Play the rest of
the "Official" universe relatively unmodified (adjusting dates, and deleting
references to the Virus as appropriate).  The largest changes will be to
remember to mention that the Regency has had a long succession of cloned
nobles running it ... ;-)

Seriously, though: the Virus isn't vital to a New Era, Reformation-Coalition
campaign.  With a truly minor amount of work, you can remove all references
to it and play the same game.  Some adventure scenarios will be invalidated
(for example, "Idol Dreams") but others could be played with minor changes.
Remember that some Imperial computer systems were nearly artifical
intelligences already - have them spend a millenia powered on with no
meaningful input and they'll be ready made artificial insanities (recall
Traveller Adventure 1 - The Kinunir).


adrian@cee.hw.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt) writes:
> The sad thing is the loss of diversity.  The new background seems to offer
> no alternative except a hard, grim, "More Blood, Less Dialogue" setting.
> In the old background, if you wanted such an adventure, or even campaign,
> there were places for it.

Not exactly, but I can see where, with a little imagination and some minor
cutting and fitting, where the Reformation Colaition campaign could be
dropped right into the Classic Traveller universe; I haven't seen and haven't
heard discussed anything which the New Era makes possible that couldn't
have been done in the Classic Traveller universe simply by selecting a sector
off the edge of the "known space" map and setting the campaign there.

On the other hand, one of the reasons for preserving the Regency was as
a place to set many of the campaigns that aren't possible anywhere else
in the New Era.

> You aren't going to use the background, and you might not use the rules.
> What's the point of buying TNE, then? :-)

Exactly.  As I said before, if you're happy with the little black books,
there a *lot* to be said for giving T:TNE a miss.

> > goldman@orac.cray.com (Goldman of Chaos -- postmaster CRI-US) writes:
> > Perhaps we could get someone to OEM
> > the Traveller Workstation!  It would have to be black with red
> > lettering, portable with a very high resolution color screen.
>
> Better yet, let's have some Traveller software for pocket computers such
> as the HP95 and the Psion Series 3.  Oh, I forgot, pocket computers are
> TL 10, so they don't exist yet. :-)

That's a good idea, but what *I* really want to see is Traveller: Pinball
Adventure in the Far Future (a Traveller pinball machine).  Put your
quarter in, press start and get the sound effect "This is Free Trader
Beowulf!  Mayday!  Mayday!") ... I've already got most of the design
worked out in my head :-)


RJR96326@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU (J Robertson) writes:
> I can't comment on Challenge's quality because my nearest store
> has stopped carrying it. If anyone would care to enlighten me, please do.

I can't comment on Challenge because I stopped buying it regularly about
two years ago, and haven't purchased an issue at all in about a year.  It
just doesn't seem useful or relevant.

> Personally, I favor GURPS.
> (BTW, where's the GURPS 2300 book?)

You're not the first person I've heard of that prefers GURPS.  I've talked
to several different people at the local game store who have told me that
they are now playing "GURPS Traveller", using the GURPS Space rules and
the Classic Traveller background.  Many of these people left Traveller
rules when MegaTraveller came out, and all of them that I've talked to
consider GURPS better than either the MegaTraveller system or GDW's
T2k2 "house rules".  I don't think their coming back for T:TNE.


mgood@MIT.EDU writes:
> I'm new to the list, so I don't know if there has been any discussion of
> Space:1889.  This game had the hopeful themes of Edgar Rice Burroughs and
> Victorian Sci-Fi.  I really like the game.  It was, by all accounts, a
> financial disacter for GDW.  A couple of industry people I spoke with
> thought that it had almost bankrupted GDW.

I like Space: 1889 a lot too, although I didn't buy it when it came out.  You
can blame MegaTraveller for that.  I had recently purchased MegaTraveller and
after realizing the profound lack of quality control in that game, I wanted
nothing to do with Space: 1889 until at least the second edition, lest I be
stuck with *another* $30 unplayable monstrosity.

Of course, a second edition never came out, and I eventually picked up some
of the materials second-hand (and still check out whatever is left-over at
the game stores for new Space: 1889 stuff).

By the way, does Frank Chadwick have a fetish for titles with colons in
them?  Twilight: 2000, Traveller: 2300, Space: 1889, Traveller: The New
Era ... maybe he will change the company name to Game Designers: Workshop?
<grins> <ducks and runs> ;-)

> Dane said:
> >I dunno, maybe I'm not giving GDW enough credit.  Loren has mentioned that
> >'many people' are extremely overjoyed with the new setting and direction.
> >However, I don't think I've seen or heard from *one person* who has this
> >opinion.
>
> Hmmmm...  well, I guess I'm the one person.  And this is hearsay, but the
> people in my gaming group are pretty excited about it [the new era] too.

Actually, this is good news.  It would be very poor work indeed if it was
universally disliked.

> As to Jo's
> >*That* is my Traveller.  I could not better put it.  Endless
> >posibilities in a limitless world.  The bright joy and wonder.
> >Shining spaceships, dubious traders, mysterious aliens.
> >But then, that was then.
>
> This sounds like a perfect description of Space:1889.  I'm the only person
> I know who bought any of the stuff for this game, and I bought it all.  I
> had a fun campaign.  GDW almost went bankrupt.  (Anybody know where I
> can get the unpublished Venus Sourcebook?)

Now you know someone else who liked Space: 1889.  However, I never played a
campaign; I only know one other person who liked it (and like me, he *really*
liked it).  Everyone else went "Vern who?" and went back to Twilight: 2000.

> I have a posting for an alternate anti-grav technology, but this list
> seems to be pretty serious...

Go ahead and post it!  I'm still wondering if we'll get rules for Liftwood
and Ether Propellors in Fire, Fusion, and Steel (the T:TNE Technical
Architecture book).

> I also finally worked out the penetration system.  Yuck!  I'm working on
> a fix...

I'd say this is the biggest single problem with the T2k2 "House Rules" system
as presented in T:TNE.  It looks like a basic small arms combat system that
was added onto by several suppliments, and without a lot of forethought. Since
different weapons have listings that are similar in format, but should be
nterpreted in completely different ways, it is *very* confusing to the new
player or referee.


wildstar@quark.qrc.com
- - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the New Era

------------------------------

Bundle: 503
Archive-Message-Number: 6106
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 93 17:06:41 -0700
From: bjm@ares.dsc.com (Brian Makens)
Subject: Zhodani Problem?

This little rambling concerns a thought I had about Zhodani-Regency relations in The New Era. Might
not a psionic using Regency with all the good old virtues and vices be viewed as a more
destablizing neighbor than the old deadhead Imperium.

Previously, the Zho's could justify the dictatorship of the psionic by saying that ZHO society is
significantly more progressive than the Imp's with  it crude repression of psionic talent, and that
psionic nobles having all the say, thought police and re-education are just some of the cost of the
better society.

Now Deneb has a society with open psionic members, and the proles there just don't seemed to get shoved
the Regency around the same as back on Zhodane.  This is assuming of course that Norris didn't decide that
the Tlacaverde(sp?..its been awhile, what can I say my zhodani is rusty)thought police is a neat idea,
and got some of his own. But that would mean the Spinward marches, ain't the old Spinward
Marches we know and love.

Course I would have to admit, the 10pt swan dive into the toilet that the 3rd Imperium took
themselves, the solomani, the aslan hegemony, the two thousand world, the hivers, and most of the vargr,
would be one effective piece of propaganda on why the deadheads should'nt run things.


See GDW, I can have a positive discussion of the TNE universe, without foaming at the mouth.
Now pleeze untie this strait jacket..Now give me back my butcher knife......<grin>
TNE author-> Strength 0 Endurance 0...

						Bad Boy..Bad Boy..Quick ...Sedate Him Nurse

						Brian Makens


------------------------------

Bundle: 503
Archive-Message-Number: 6107
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 93 16:44:47 PDT
From: James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
Subject: RE: missile volume

Wildstar says:
>I went looking through Peter Alway's new book, _Rockets of the World_
>... for a sounding rocket that was about 7000kg.
>
>I found one: the Viking Model 2, a sounding rocket designed by the Naval
>Research Laboratory.  Its loaded weight was 6800kg, and it carried a 230kg
>payload to an altitude of up to 252km.  The rocket was 45 inches in diameter,
>and 505 inches long (including a 121 inch conic nose cone).


I did some calculations using Brilliant Lances, and frankly, using the
listed Hull materials, TNE missiles cannot be that big.  For a 1 DTon
hull with Armor-3, Bonded SD weighs 6.6 tons.  This just the skin of
the missile, without innards!
The results of my fiddling are not yet in, since we don't know the
volume or mass of the nuke-to-laser warhead, but I'm looking at a
missile between 0.2 and 0.4 DTons (2.8 to 5.6 m3).  Too small, you say?
The smaller end of my range is still the size of an old-fashioned
phone-booth, and even that is a bit large to be pushing around during
combat reloading.
 The other argument against a 1 DTon missile is the turret size and
shape.  A 3-ton missile can holds 2 missiles.  Assuming that they call
them "Cans" for a reason (ie. they are cylinders), the only way to
fill two-thirds of the can with a pair of smaller cylinders is to
make them _shorter_, not narrower.  Two missiles with half the diameter
of the can, sitting side-by-side, will only fill half the volume of
the can, not two-thirds.  Thus the missiles are smaller, with more
volume in the can dedicated to launch and guidance.
 Remember also that turret cans come complete with the gunner's
workstation.  If this workstation is the same as those elsewhere on the
ship, it takes up a ton all by itself.

James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>

There was a young lady named Bright,
Whose speed was much faster, much faster than Light.
She departed one day in a relative way,
And returned on the previous Night.
   --Albert & the Heart of Gold

------------------------------

Bundle: 503
Archive-Message-Number: 6108
Date: Fri, 1 Oct 93 19:04:26 -0700
From: bjm@ares.dsc.com (Brian Makens)
Subject: Another 1889'er crawling out of the woodwork

wildstar@quark.qrc.com writes
>mgood@MIT.EDU writes:
>> I'm new to the list, so I don't know if there has been any discussion of
>> Space:1889.  This game had the hopeful themes of Edgar Rice Burroughs and
>> Victorian Sci-Fi.  I really like the game.  It was, by all accounts, a
>> financial disacter for GDW.  A couple of industry people I spoke with
>> thought that it had almost bankrupted GDW.

>I like Space: 1889 a lot too, although I didn't buy it when it came out.  You
>can blame MegaTraveller for that.  I had recently purchased MegaTraveller and
>after realizing the profound lack of quality control in that game, I wanted
>nothing to do with Space: 1889 until at least the second edition, lest I be
>stuck with *another* $30 unplayable monstrosity.

>Of course, a second edition never came out, and I eventually picked up some
>of the materials second-hand (and still check out whatever is left-over at
>the game stores for new Space: 1889 stuff).

I did one better than both of you, I even hoodwinked myself into buying
the *%&#* Space 1889 computer game. Actually I kinda of miss the pointy
ears folks on mars and the venusian lizard folk. Probably bought 90% of
the stuff for it. Always liked it a lot better than TW2000 and Trav 2300.
One of the redeeming qualities of Challange for me has been the fact that they
still publish adventures for Space 1889 in it. Actually, while my
signers of paycheck would never agree to it here, is there any interest
in a mailing list for us poor abandoned SP1889 fans and is there anybody
with the interest and the longer leash who would host it? This would
spare all those other members of TML who are still heaving into the
air-sickness bags over this conversation.
					Brian Makens


------------------------------

Bundle: 503
Archive-Message-Number: 6109
Date:    Fri, 1 Oct 1993 21:43:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: RJR96326@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU
Subject: Systems Analysis

First off, Phil, I sympatize with you about there being no material. And you
may not have time to write something for publication. But I think there's
enough material already there for you to still run effective adventures without
GDW's help. People were telling stories long before they were commercialized.

What is everyone's problem with Megatraveller? I never actually ran a campaign,
but I was quite pleased with the well-developed background, streamlined
character generation, and other stuff. It was the first serious role-playing
game where I could keep all my character's vital stats on an indez card. The
only difficulty I encountered was space combat/encounters, when my PCs (we
started and adventure, never finished it) had to get past a system defense
boat and I was overwhelmed with innumerable sensor, piloting, and other tasks
with no clearly delienated relationship between them. Again, Mtrav and 2300AD
are the only two Traveller games I have (and I don't consider 2300AD a
traveller game, BTW).

I AM familiar with Twilight. I played the first edition extensively. I bought
2nd ed and played a bit. My biggest complaint is: too few skills at too low
levels. A PC pretty much HAS to be career army commando-type to have any
appreciable levels in more than 2 or 3 skills (exceptions, such as Doctor,
are rare). I also like characters in the late 20s-early 30s age range; Most
PCs need to be over 33 for decent skills; this is my only other complaint for
Megatraveller (but I understand it was true in CT).

I am aware that the Twilight GM screen changed the mechanics a little. I didn't
buy it; could someone summarize the changes?

Space:1889-I wanted this, but couldn't afford it until it was gone. I really
liked the idea, though, as with the above two game systems, the mechanics
seemed to be a little lacking.

Frank Chadwick: A very punctual man :)

As for GURPS: Since I bought High Tech, I have considered a GURPS Twilight
campaign.

Pentration: Is it the same as in Twilight? If so, maybe I CAN join that
discussion. . .

BTW, for vehicle design of ANY type: GURPS Vehicles. Any tech level, magical
engines or capabilities. . . the examples cover everything from chariots to
cars to Jets to Vectored Trust vehicles. . .no starships, though. . .But you
can build them.


J Roberson

------------------------------

Bundle: 503
Archive-Message-Number: 6110
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 93 13:53:05 PDT
From: James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
Subject: Griping Specifically

PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu says:

>My major gripe is that there will be, in all likelihood, no
>more supplements, & probably no material at all, that will be
>usable by me. For me this is a *MAJOR* loss & one that I will
>be incapable of replacing.

and

wildstar@quark.qrc.com says:
>I can't comment on Challenge because I stopped buying it regularly about
>two years ago, and haven't purchased an issue at all in about a year.  It
>just doesn't seem useful or relevant.


 What sort of settings are you using?  What is the feel of your
campaign?  The TNE setting includes everything the Third Imperium
did except for "decadent imperial nobility" and "all-out war".  If you
want to play "all-out-war" then I'm not sympathetic, because the
Rebellion and Fifth Frontier Wars produced more than enough material
between them.  "Decadent Nobility" can be run out of Traveller's
Digest #9 (the Capital issue) for ever and ever, and such campaigns
don't get much mileage from continued coverage either (the soaps are
a better source anyway).
 What's left?  Fragile Frontier. Merchants' Business-As-Usual, "To
Boldly Go...", Political Bedfellows, "We Can Rebuild It", Soulless Hunters
of Soulless Pirates, Mercenary Tickets, Orbital Seige-and-Rescue...
 Several of these are actually easier to do than before, and none is
any more difficult to justify.

 Continue to gripe if you must, but at least gripe in a specific
fashion.  If you see a regrettable gap in the coverage, mention it
to the right people.  There are enough writers within shouting distance
of this list that SOMEONE may get inspired to fill the gap, even if
you cannot.


James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>

There was a young lady named Bright,
Whose speed was much faster, much faster than Light.
She departed one day in a relative way,
And returned on the previous Night.
   --Albert & the Heart of Gold

------------------------------

Bundle: 503
Archive-Message-Number: 6111
From: james vassilakos <jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu>
Subject: BYO Imagination
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 1993 18:10:34 -0700 (PDT)


Phil gripes about the loss of Classic Traveller support:
>My major gripe is that there will be, in all likelihood, no
>more supplements, & probably no material at all, that will be
>usable by me. For me this is a *MAJOR* loss & one that I will
>be incapable of replacing.
>I think this reason alone is ample cause to bitch. The fact that
>bitching is about all I *can* do just makes it all the more ir-
>ritating.

Actually, as Steve said, there is more you can do about this than
bitch (although bitching certainly has it's advantages). You can
write your own stuff. Actually, we all can. I, personally, would
be willing to throw in my bit if others would do the same. This,
in fact, is precisely the reason I starting coming up with my
own setting years ago. I realized that Classic Traveller, like all
good things, wouldn't last forever (and even if it did, it didn't
take an Einstein to realize that it would never be perfectly
attuned to my personal weirdness).

My advice, for whatever it's worth, is that you accept and embrace
the fact that Classic Traveller will probably never again be commercially
supported, so you either need to support it yourself or come up
with your own setting and support that. But don't rely on GDW or
anybody else for material. Just grab from the hodgepodge of sources
we call SF-culture and make like a Borg on Steroids: "Assimilate...
assimilate... resistance is futile!" :-)

Wildstar writes (regarding the pocket empire group):
>An outline for a campaign module has been written, and sent to Dave Nilsen
>at GDW for comment.  Nearly all of the major worlds have been detailed, and
>write-ups are available for them.  Adventure plotlines have been written,
>UWP data has been prepared.  Starmaps, deckplans, and other miscellania
>have been done.  Megabytes and Megabytes of conversations have passed
>through our mailers.  Discussion continues; the largest area of remaining
>work is to take the adventure plot outlines and flesh them out into
>real, publishable adventures.

Is this stuff available on sunbane in a semi-useable format?
Yes... you guessed it... you've just been targeted for assimilation,
so don't even think about resisting. :-)


------------------------------

Bundle: 503
Archive-Message-Number: 6112
Date:    Sun, 3 Oct 1993 6:16:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: RJR96326@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU
Subject: The Can

>A 3-ton missile can holds 2 missiles.  Assuming that they call
>them "Cans" for a reason (ie. they are cylinders), the only way to
>fill two-thirds of the can with a pair of smaller cylinders is to

I wouldn't assume so. Think of other definitions of "can" and other words
and you'll see what I mean. I would take can to be slang for 'storage/launch
unit'. But then again, I don't have Brilliant Lances.

J Roberson

------------------------------

Bundle: 503
Archive-Message-Number: 6113
From: l.wiseman1@genie.geis.com
Date: Mon,  4 Oct 93 04:11:00 BST
Subject:

Hello All. Lotta traffic tonight....
   Chuck Hamilton   clh@mitre.org
   Wish list requests noted and forwarded to the proper persons
   ------------------------------
   I'm going to let Dave reply to the BL questions, and the "USL,
  SL, AF" landing discussion.
   ------------------------------
   george william herbert:
   > mentions accelleration tanks, and doesn't give any rules
   > or details
   Acell tanks in FF&S? I think so, but Frank and Dave are locked in
  their offices and won't come out to answer questions about FF&S
  (or anything else).
   ------------------------------
   Matt "Sounds to me like a Gentleman of Sound Judgement"
  Goodman,  mgood@MIT.EDU
   > TNE Small Arms penetration vaules
   > Am I missing the point, or are there massive typos in
   > the weapons lists?
   Nope. Just a missing sentence or two explaining a few things.
  Its all taken care of in the TNE errata, which you can have sent
  to you free for the asking. Email me your land address and I'll
  send you one.

   ------------------------------

   Palmer T. Davis
    ptd2@po.CWRU.Edu
   Brilliant Lances comments left for others to deal with later
  on.
   >BTW, whatever happened to _Kinunir_'s black globe?  Or the
   > grav APC?)
   Black Globe I can't answer, but the grav APC and its docking
  bay were a casualty of getting everything else to fit in the
  space available. It was either that, or have no cargo available
  for extra missiles.
   ------------------------------
   Tom O'Neill
   > what protection is provided by personal armour(?)
   This was an oversight.
   Basically, sealed, armored suits such as combat armor and
  battledress provide protection from most concussion. There are
  some limitations to this, clearly, as a large enough concussion
  force will squash protective armor (including tanks, as the
  Japanese discovered to their chagrin about 50 years ago). Writing
  a more rigorously defined rule on this is one our list of "Things
  To Do RSN."
   > Plasma/Fusion rifles do significantly less damage than RAM
   > grenades
   The way I read the rules, the worst plasma rifle does slightly
  more damage than a RAM HEAP grenade (when plasma splatter is
  taken into account), although it is worse at penetrating.
   > gauss rifles...the formula in the T2K small arms book yields
   > 4D damage, not 2D
   I rated the weapons for TNE. The ammo weight and performance
  numbers to feed into the rating formulae were taken from Mega,
  per my instructions, and those values were what I got. Mercenary
  gives different numbers, but we wanted a single source for the
  data, and Merc didn't have all the stuf they wanted to include.
  FF&S will allow the design of hotter TL 8 to 10 slug throwers and
  Gauss weapons (Merc gives a higher mass for the 4mm Gauss round).
  Frankly, I think the VRF GG as it stands is a Veg-o-matic for
  unprotected infantry due to the high ROF.
   > Fact is stranger than fiction
   True, but that's because fiction has to make sense! : )
   ------------------------------
   Re The FTL communications via Jumpspace Tunnel, I pretty much
  agree with Jeff Zeitlin's comments on the subject. I'll
 forward anybody else's if they differ.
   ------------------------------
   Glenn E. Myers gmyers@swanson.com
   >I'd give anything to see a rack of those little black books
   > in a games store again.
   Check with Matt Goldman (see below), evidently he's passing a
  hat!   : )
   Seriously, we quit selling them because almost nobody was
  buying them. Not enough of them were being sold to pay the taxes
  on the unsold inventory we had in stock. This is the death knell
   for a product, as you can't stay in business very long selling
   items that cost you money instead of making it.
   ------------------------------
   Jo Jaquinta <jaymin@maths.tcd.ie>
   >The conclusion I have gained from this whole sad episode
   > is that Dave Nilsen hates Mark Miller.
   and
   > When everyone at GDW lost interest in Traveller...it
   > looked like it was landed in the lap of "Darlin' Dave
   > Bwana" and told "We know you never liked Mark.
   >Take his creation and rub his face in it."
   You couldn't be more wrong.
   >  I came across this blurb in the back of an old Paranoia
   >  Press supplement for Traveller:
   >  For the science-fiction fan who finishes a
   >  novel only to wonder what happens next...
   >  For the fan who wishes they could be there,
   >  if only for a few minutes...
   >  When just reading isn't enough...
   >  ... there is Traveller
   That comes originally from a GDW ad we placed in SF magazines
  such as Analog to attract SF readers (a move that had moderate
  success). I wrote it. I was always very happy with it. Don Rapp
  of Paranoia thought it was so good he asked if he could use it.
  I'm glad my writing from those days moved you. I'm sorry our
  present material does not seem to.
   The "Commodore Bwana" column is intended as a humorous way to
  present news and product announcements. I'm sorry you didn't
  appreciate the approach.
    The TNS in Challenge 70 is intended as a tongue-in-cheek
  transition between the old TNS and the new TNS. Next issue the
  TNS consists of part line noise and part genuine messages (albeit
  of little game value), and then with #72 it starts up again, date-
  lined after the Virus. It is not intended to be a kick in the
  gonads to anybody or anything.
   ------------------------------
   Dane
    <dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov>
   > Loren has mentioned that 'many people' are extremely
   > overjoyed with the new setting and direction. However,
   > I don't think I've seen or heard from *one person* who
   > has this opinion.
   The vast majority of the responses we have received are quite
  favorable (only a small number could be characterised as
  overjoyed, in about the same proportion as those who didn't care
  for what we did with the game). I am aware of only one person who
  has demanded his money back. Fewer people like the background
  than the new mechanics, but I believe that very few people play
  any RPG background unmodified, straight out of the books (never
  did, and I don't think they ever will). This was true of Classic
  Traveller, it was True of MegaTravller, and it is true of TNE.
   > I suspect that, for the most part, the TML is made up of
   > generally older, 'More Mature' fans
   I agree with you to an extent. I don't know about the average
  age of the TML, but the more vocal TMLers seem to be long-time
  Traveller fanatics, like myself and Dave Nilsen. I never cared
  much for MegaTraveller, and lost enthusiasm for the game when it
  came out. I like the new system, and am working with Traveller
  products again because of it. (Some Classic Traveller Grognards
  have expressed delight at this last bit of news.)
   ------------------------------
   Palmer T. Davis
   > A few questions about 2300 ship design:
   I'll forward these to the proper desk. It may take a while.
   ------------------------------
   Mike Basinger <dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu>
   > Being fairly new to the mailing list I was wondering what
   > people here think of the New Era. Was the change to the
   > game welcome, or do people still wish for the old days
   > of "Classic" Traveller.
   Depends on who you ask. Opinion is divided among the most
  active TML posters, ranging from an almost vitriolic hatred of
  TNE and everyone associated with it to acceptance of the new
  mechanics and background. I think the majority of TMLers (lurkers
  included) lie somewhere in the middle. Clearly, more like the new
  mechanics than like the new background.
   As for our customers in general, see my reply to Dane, above.
   ------------------------------
   Matthew Goldman:
   > Does anyone know the real story of why Mark Miller left GDW?
   Yep.
   > Is there anyone left at GDW who can spell correctly?
   Yep. I can even spell Marc's name correctly (he prefers it
  with a "c" rather than a k).
   > Did Mark take the editors with him or were they
   > killed in the crossfire?
   (You're not adding emoticons, Matt...people will think you're serious)
  What editors were these...the editors of Classic Traveller? I
  was one of them, and I still work for GDW. John Harshman, another
  one, is now going for a PHD in Paleontology at UniChi. Tim Brown
  took a job with TSR. Frank never did much editing of Traveller,
  but he is still with us. I can't think of anybody else who edited
  Traveller on a regular basis...
   > Is Mark dug in at a mysterious fortress waiting to be visited
   > by the "Arrival Vengance?"
   No. [shouldn't there have been a :-) after that?)

   He is a member of the GDW board of directors, an officer of the
  corporation, and stops in the office to visit fairly often (I
  spoke with him yesterday, in fact). He remains interested in what
  we are doing with his game.
   > Is Dave Nilsen realy Lucan?
   No. Lacking a time machine and a means of exiting a fictitious
  universe (and don't I wish I had blueprints for either one of
  those!), Lucan cannot be working for GDW under the name of Dave
  Nilsen. : )

   > Does the dark area around Capital/Core represent GDW's
   > future?
   Ghod, I hope not! : )
   > Anyone interested in chipping in to reprint Classic Traveller
   > after the copyrights expire?
   Remains to be seen. Why don't you collect the money now and
  invest it in a few long-term growth stocks to insure you have
  enough working capital by then? That way a few dollars up front
  would pay huge dividends later. : )
   > The Traveller Workstation, the Traveller CD, and
   > the Traveller's Referee Toolkit wouldn't be hard to
   > do with TODAY's available hardware.  And the
   > names are my ideas, so there!
   Traveller is GDW's trademark for its SF roleplaying game, and
  trademarks, unlike copyrights, _don't_ expire. Perhaps we can
  discuss a licensing arrangement when 2030 rolls around? : )
   ------------------------------
   Mark Urbin <urbin@interlan.interlan.com>
- --------
BAGGALEY
PAB@cms.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk>
ll colour, on the back page, the ad for BENDY ROBOT
  They pay cash money, something GDW needs at this point in time.
 the toys if you are offended by them.
- --------------------
s:
71 is in the warehouse, and is in the process of
bscribers. It'll ship to distributors next
  TNE and BL Errata are free for the asking. Call or write:
O Box 1646
ngton IL 61702
   (309) 452-3632 voice
- -3127 data
 . Wiseman
or GDW, Inc.

------------------------------

Bundle: 503
Archive-Message-Number: 6114
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 93 22:02:40 PDT
From: Dane Johnson  <djohnson@willamette.edu>
Subject: Tracked Vehicles...


Well, this is pretty massively off topic, but here goes...

I've been watching the CNN feed from the Soviet Army assault on the
Parliament building in Moscow, and the CNN correspondant keeps tagging
these small, tracked vehicles as APCs...There are also larger wheeled
vehicles which look an awful lot like ye olde standard TL 8 APC, so
I was wondering if the commentator is justing flubbing or is the
Soviet method of identifying armored vehicles that different from the
US's?  Or is that small thing really a standard APC that I just don't
know about?

From a Traveller point of view, this could impact my vehicle
designs :)

Dane

djohnson@willamette.edu   dane@retzlaff.llnl.gov
TNS Stringer ------ Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8)
My opinions are those of my fuzz-brained, cat-sniffing Norwegian
Elkhound.

------------------------------

Bundle: 503
Archive-Message-Number: 6115
Date: Sun, 3 Oct 93 22:37:18 PDT
From: James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
Subject: Re: The Can

J Roberson (RJR96326@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU) says:

>>A 3-ton missile can holds 2 missiles.  Assuming that they call
>>them "Cans" for a reason (ie. they are cylinders), the only way to
>>fill two-thirds of the can with a pair of smaller cylinders is to

>I wouldn't assume so. Think of other definitions of "can" and other words
>and you'll see what I mean. I would take can to be slang for 'storage/launch
>unit'. But then again, I don't have Brilliant Lances.


  My assumption is based on two things: The cross-section of a turret
can in the TNE rulebook, and the universally circular 'can-covers'
shown in the starship pictures, both in TNE and BL.

  A cylindrical can makes sense from the modularity angle as well.  In
an ideal world, all ship designs have their can-interface hatches in
the same place relative to the direction of travel, and thus a boxy
can is designed with its workstation in a standard spot relative to
the corners of the can.
  Alas, neither this nor Traveller is a perfect world, and interface
hatches are aligned as required by the configuration of the ship. In
order to avoid having to build different boxy cans for each possibility,
the standard modular can is a cylinder.  Simply drop it into the socket
and spin it until the hatches line up.  Too simple.

  This said, I don't believe for a minute that all ships use the
modular cans and sockets.  Some weapon setups are going to require
too much customization to retain their modularity.  The Dragon SDB
(also called the Shukugan in BL) is the classic case.  Its hinge-out
missile barbettes are clearly not cylinders, and just as clearly are
an integral part of the design.  I don't consider it possible to
swap out those missile barbettes for something else without a fair
amount of shipyard work.
  Of course, I think the Dragon SDB should have an autoloader for its
missiles, but that's a different topic yet again.

  Based on the various ship pictures in TNE and BL, I'm assuming that
turret sockets take up 9 square meters of hull area for the socket
cover and its mechanisms (part of the socket, not the can, BTW).  I
figure that _modular_ barbette sockets are the same depth at turret
sockets (6m) but a bit less than 4.5 meters across (around 4.25),
producing a surface area figure of around 20 square meters hull area
per modular barbette.  Any weapon mount is welcome to take more or less
than these numbers, but is assumed to be a hard-installed instead
of modular.  IMO, of course.

  As a final bit of info, reliable sources have placed missiles at
7 cubic meters.  On a good day, Traveller nukes will float, and also
happen to be the right size to fit side by side in a 3-meter-wide
turret can.

James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>

There was a young lady named Bright,
Whose speed was much faster, much faster than Light.
She departed one day in a relative way,
And returned on the previous Night.
   --Albert & the Heart of Gold

------------------------------
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 504  6116 04-Oct-1993 "Jason Proctor"  Writing our own Traveller <<
 504  6117 04-Oct-1993 S_DMOODY@pstcc.  TNE Complaints, and MY FIX! (so there!)
 504  6118 04-Oct-1993 RJR96326@VAX1.U  APC, Propheteers, and Patton << ]I've b
 504  6119 05-Oct-1993 Adrian Hurt      Re: Tracked Vehicles & Lots of Traffic
 504  6120 05-Oct-1993 tom@csvax1.ucc.  Re: TNE: Loren's comments << Thanks to
 504  6121 05-Oct-1993 ihlpl!zonker@at  Re: Moscow << The reporters on CNN are
 504  6122 05-Oct-1993 Goldman of Chao  Re: Hello All. << > From: l.wiseman1@ge
 504  6123 05-Oct-1993 "Anthony K. Bag  Traveller Toys... <<  Loren, your reply
 504  6124 05-Oct-1993 The Flynnman     Re: TML nightly: Msgs 6094-6101 V62#2 <
 504  6125 05-Oct-1993 Roger Opperman   Tracked Vehicles << The little guys are
 504  6126 05-Oct-1993 The Flynnman     Data line connection for GDW << Does GD
 504  6127 05-Oct-1993 S_DMOODY@pstcc.  More Questions and Comments << Since I
 504  6128 05-Oct-1993 Robert S. Dean   Various << l.wiseman1@genie.geis.com (L
 504  6129 05-Oct-1993 mgood@MIT.EDU    TNE/BL Erratta, Space:1889 list << Hi!
 504  6130 05-Oct-1993 antilles@aol.co  Traveller Mailing List << Subscribe Tra
 504  6131 05-Oct-1993 "Matthew Thomas  << Has anyone heard from DGP lately? Ha
 504  6132 05-Oct-1993 mgood@MIT.EDU    TNE Erratta Sheets/Ascii Conversion, Re
 504  6133 06-Oct-1993 RJR96326@VAX1.U  1889 <<   Sorry to use this address, bu
 504  6134 06-Oct-1993 "Dan Gosselin,   Wanted: Classic Traveller product list

------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6116
Date: 4 Oct 1993 14:13:22 U
From: "Jason Proctor" <Jason.Proctor@isltd.insignia.com>
Subject: Writing our own Traveller

                       Subject:                               Time:2:03 pm
  OFFICE MEMO          Writing our own Traveller              Date:4/10/93
james vassilakos writes:
> You can write your own stuff
> Actually, we all can.
> I, personally, would be willing to throw in my bit if others would do the
same.

So that's the solution then. All of us on the TML band up together to write our
own Traveller New New Era. Then when we've got a stonking new Traveller that
has no glitches, typos, inconsistencies, or complete cockups, we send our
agents into the net evangelising it. When the entire Traveller world adopts our
system, GDW will be forced to do the same. We can do it, we have the power [fx:
continues in long rant].

I agree with the chaps. Magic occurs when you play Classic Trav - you can feel
it, the game has soul Even, or especially, when you tinker with the rules a bit
- - my own change was to use the Striker combat system rather than the clunky
original one. MT and TNE are cold and lifeless. I had high hopes for TNE but
the typos and everything have killed it for me.

Come on, let's do it. And for heaven's sake let's keep the stats the same as CT
so we can all use our fave characters with our nice new classic system.

czeers
Jase

PS I suggest we use the RQ skills system [fx: dodges flying garbage] :-)

------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6117
Date: Mon, 04 Oct 1993 12:26:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: S_DMOODY@pstcc.cc.tn.us
Subject: TNE Complaints, and MY FIX! (so there!)


OK, just to add my CR0.02 to this discussion.

Doing research for an upcoming adventure, I found in and old Challenge and
article writted during the early MT days. The article is a collection of short
comments on Traveller by people who have been connected with the game.  I
believe these comments, along with my useless commentary will go far in
enlightening people as to why I agree with Jo in her opinions of TNE.

<Please note, all these quotes are from Challenge#29, 'A Decade of
Traveller', written by He-Whose-Name-Will-Always-Be-Hailed, Marc Miller. My own
comments are the opinions of my pet Vargr.>

First, words of praise-

From Joe D. Fugate:
	"Marc Miller and the folks at GDW have done a fantastic job
	of building a science-fiction role-playing game with a
	consistency of background second to none in the industry.  And
	few (if any) science-fiction role-playing games can match the
	sheer 'open-endedness' that Traveller offers."

Indeed, Traveller (weather Classic- or Mega- flavors) has an incredible open
endedness.  TNE also has open-endedness, but not in the same way.  The universe
of Traveller was awash of incredible differences.  TNEs universe is all the
same color-the gray of the wilds.

From Mike Jackson:
	"One of the exciting aspects of Traveller is its versitility.
	Unlike other games, Traveller does not restrict you to one
	type of activity (such as crawling underground and killing
	monsters); you can participate in merchant activities, piracy,
	mercenary operations, exploration, diplomacy, end even
	espionage!"

Dangeous worlds spark incredible adventures.  If characters don't take chances
(weather fiscal, physical, social, etc), the adventure pales. Whats the use of
doing something if its easy? Or safe?  The TNE universe removes the real
dangers of the Traveller universe and replaces them with fake dangers - unreal
dangers.
1) Combat is very safe (avg damage from 9mm round-3.5pts, avd hits avg
character can take in chest (STR+CON)*3=(6+6)*3=36pts --> 10 rounds of 9mm):
the average party will run out of ammo before they are killed.  (I calmly let
him shoot me in the gut while I return fire.)  Well, that rules out mercenary
ops, piracy, exploration, and espionage as deadly pursuits.  Why shouldnt a
character pull his weapon and fight his way out of a situation if he KNOWS he
wont be killed? Traveller had deadly combat- usually, one hit, you're down: two
or three, and your DEAD!  This kindof forces characters to talk their way out
of situation (ie more roleplay, more fun).  If I wanted indestructible
characters, I'd play Champions.
2) Merchant activities are right out.  Noone to trade with, nothing to trade,
no money to buy anything.  If the wilds are as bad as they seem, what are you
going to buy?  Ag products? Most planets cant feed themselves.  Tech items?
Nope, the Virus took care of that. Oh, well.
3) Diplomacy? The Regency doesnt like that after their exploration ships got
zapped (how?).  The have the solution "coherent light and RAM grenades".  More
like gunbout diplomacy, but why not?  We cant be killed.

From Ed Edwards:
	"Consider two strong points which have led to the premier position
	of Traveller among SF-RPGs: First, Traveller has an extensive
	background.  In the past ten years the Imperium Campaign has
	produced the most extensive (in excess of 3000 unique pages
	of information) published background of any fictional universe.
	...Traveller is bigger than other RPGs because of the extensive
	background of the Imperium Campaign."

TNE trashes this background.  The Imperium is gone, its worlds charred
radioactive ashes, its people scattered to the elements and converted to
ignorant savages.  Dodnt Loren say one of the resons Traveller was dying out
was the complaints of people of the large amount of background material made it
difficult to get into the game?  Is detailed background a strength of weakness?
TNE doesnt care.  It trashes the background.  Who cares what happeded befor the
Virus Zap.  It doesnt affect us here.

Indeed, there is nothing in the TNE books that could not take place in a
backwater sector away from the Imperium and the chaos of the Rebellion.  (In
fact, in my campaign, thats what is happening).  So why did they trash the
Imperium?  Pety infighting? Ecenomic desires? Lack of originality (Gosh, we
cant think up all these new names for planets, lots just use the old ones.)?

Lastly, from Mr.Miller himself:
	"We've put ten years into the developing the details of this
	universe of the future, and we can't, we won't, let it fade
	away.  At the same time, nothing lasts forever; everything
	changes.  And in the interest of a more intruging future,
	the Imperium itself has to change."

Indeed.  The Imperium is no more.  Our beloves Third Imperium is gone, replaced
with many small, bickering factions.  There was no reaseon to trash the sectors
we know and love.  The rebellion was bad enough, but it worked in a gaming
sense.  The Virus just doesnt cut it.

And, to placate the naysayers out there-

My Solutions:
	Weve been using a Traveller variant rules system for about two years
now similar to 2300 in feel and mechanics.  We use a rewritten MT expanded
character generation system (modified for new skills, etc).  The combat system
is similar to Friday Night Firefight (modified to a task-based system), and a
modified DGP task system.  All in all, a fairly detained system with realistic
results- especially in combat.  Vehicles are modified Striker, ships are
modified MT, with the system changed to be compatable with Striker (wait, a
starship 250MW laser is 5 tons, but in Striker its three times heaver? Hmmm).
The Universe is Traveller with Rebellion, but an alternate future.  I havent
worked out the details, but outlines as such:

1130- Final Lucan-Dulinor battle, final large battle of the Rebellion. Dulinor
killed.  Iliesh falls apart.
1131- Lucan assassinated, power stugle in Lucans Imperium.
1130-1150 Consolidation of faction gains and lands, infighting of factions,
Lucan, Dulinor, Strephon factions fall apart, Aslan,Vargr,Deneb fighting slows.
Rebellion over, individual planets succeed from factions, form numerous samll,
mostly independant goverments.  New Long Night starting.
1150-1170- DGPs Baddied from the Core(highly modified) solidifies
Domain/Aslan/Vargr/Zhodani non-agression, devistates parts of Consulate,Vargr
Extants, Aslani holdings.
1170-1190- Soloidification of independant governments in area of former
Imperium.  Solomoni Confederation/Domain of Deneb/Margrets faction/RVE only
effective interstellar governments in former Imperium territory.  Begin Second
Rule of Man.  Sylean Federation reformed, parts of Core, Fornast and Ley
sectors.
1190-1200 Current era.

Why keep such large govts in existance?  Th protect the areas of the Former
Imperium from being overrun by the aliens.  Domain/RVE vs the Vargr,
Domain/Solomani vs Aslani, Solomoni/Margret vs Hivers, Sylean vs K'kree.
These areas had good reasons to keep efective interstellar government- fear of
alien invasion.
Eventually, I will flesh these ideas out, since they make more sence to me than
the Virus thing.  This Long Night wont be as long or as dark.

By the way, Where is Citizen Miller?  What happened to him?  Why didne he have
anythong to do with TNE?

			WITH RANTS AND RAVES TO ALL:
					-Vanya
Oh, PS: To those who say 'Dont complain unless you got a fix', I got a fix.  I
can complain because I love Traveller and hate to see it go down the fresher,
even if the guys tinkling on it is GDW. (Party Line, whats that?)

------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6118
Date:    Mon, 4 Oct 1993 22:41:05 -0500 (CDT)
From: RJR96326@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU
Subject: APC, Propheteers, and Patton

]I've been watching the CNN feed from the Soviet Army assault on the
]Parliament building in Moscow, and the CNN correspondant keeps tagging
]these small, tracked vehicles as APCs...There are also larger wheeled
]vehicles which look an awful lot like ye olde standard TL 8 APC, so
]I was wondering if the commentator is justing flubbing or is the
]Soviet method of identifying armored vehicles that different from the
]US's?  Or is that small thing really a standard APC that I just don't
]know about?

An APC is a small, lightly armored vehicle designed to transport troops across
a battlefield. It can be tracked or wheeled, turreted or non-turreted, and
have armament ranging from a machinegun to 25mm autocannon and anti-tank
missile.

Examples:
	M113			Box with treads. Many variants.
				carries (I believe) 11-13 soldiers.
	M2 Bradley		sloped armor, turret, 25mm gun, TOW missile
				launcher, carries (I believe) 7 soldiers.
				Tracked, amphibious.
	BTR series (-60, -70)	Soviet wheeled APC.
	BMP series 		Soviet tracked APC. Central Dorsal turret with
				30mm gun and anti-tank launcher.

Common factors:
	Armor: compared to tanks these things are eggshells. They'll resist
most small-calibre shots and fragments, but direct hits from HE or, worse yet,
HEAT rounds will kill them. AT missiles are overkill, whereas they are required
for killing the heavier tanks.

	Mission: They carry people, usually about a squad or so, in addition
to their crew. Many have variants that use this extra space for ammunition,
additional weapons systems, and other toys.
*****
]So that's the solution then. All of us on the TML band up together to write our
]own Traveller New New Era. Then when we've got a stonking new Traveller that
]has no glitches, typos, inconsistencies, or complete cockups, we send our
]agents into the net evangelising it. When the entire Traveller world adopts our
]system, GDW will be forced to do the same.

I hardly think anyone here wants to proselytize the New Way across Internet
and beyond. Except maybe Pope Strephon :)

J Roberson

^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^~^
"Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of Man.  If mountains and
 the sea can be overcome, anything built by Man can be overcome."
                        -- General George S. Patton
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6119
From: adrian@cee.hw.ac.uk (Adrian Hurt)
Subject: Re: Tracked Vehicles & Lots of Traffic
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 93 8:57:20 WET DST

Dane Johnson  <djohnson@willamette.edu> writes:
>
> I've been watching the CNN feed from the Soviet Army assault on the
> Parliament building in Moscow, and the CNN correspondant keeps tagging
> these small, tracked vehicles as APCs...There are also larger wheeled
> vehicles which look an awful lot like ye olde standard TL 8 APC, so
> I was wondering if the commentator is justing flubbing or is the
> Soviet method of identifying armored vehicles that different from the
> US's?  Or is that small thing really a standard APC that I just don't
> know about?

I haven't seen the CNN show, so I don't know exactly what vehicles were
present.  But the ex-Soviet army has at least two types of APC; the BTR
and the BMP (probably with numbers after those letters).  The BTR is the
wheeled type, and carries a heavy machine-gun in its little turret.  The
BMP is the tracked one, with a larger turret, an auto-cannon, and in some
cases anti-tank missiles.

> >From a Traveller point of view, this could impact my vehicle
> designs :)

Right.  DesignS - plural. :-)

- -----------------
l.wiseman1@genie.geis.com writes:
>    Matthew Goldman:
>    > Does anyone know the real story of why Mark Miller left GDW?
>    Yep.
>    > Is there anyone left at GDW who can spell correctly?
>    Yep. I can even spell Marc's name correctly (he prefers it
>   with a "c" rather than a k).

Ooh, nasty! :-)  But see below ...

>						John Harshman, another
>   one, is now going for a PHD in Paleontology at UniChi.

PLEASE say he's found evidence of the Ancients! :-)

>    > Is Mark dug in at a mysterious fortress waiting to be visited
>    > by the "Arrival Vengance?"
>    No. [shouildn't there have been a :-) after that?)
              ^

What was that about being able to spell correctly? :-)

- --
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cee
 UUCP: ..!uknet!cee.hw.ac.uk!adrian  |  ARPA:  adrian@cee.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6120
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1993 12:53:58 BST
From: tom@csvax1.ucc.ie
Subject: Re: TNE: Loren's comments

Thanks to Loren for his comments re high-tech weapons in TNE
>    I rated the weapons for TNE. The ammo weight and performance
>   numbers to feed into the rating formulae were taken from Mega,
>   per my instructions, and those values were what I got. Mercenary
>   gives different numbers, but we wanted a single source for the
>   data, and Merc didn't have all the stuf they wanted to include.
>   FF&S will allow the design of hotter TL 8 to 10 slug throwers and
>   Gauss weapons (Merc gives a higher mass for the 4mm Gauss round).
>   Frankly, I think the VRF GG as it stands is a Veg-o-matic for
>   unprotected infantry due to the high ROF.
>
I never did get the TML digest that my latest message was in so I did not even
know if it had been sent out. I still disagree, though. A VRF GG weighs 2
tonnes and costs 200,000 Cr(from memory, could be wrong). As it stands in TNE,
a TL7 7mm gatling is slightly less effective, but is much smaller, lighter and
cheaper. Can you see the advertising - "Roll up, roll up and buy our new,
improved 2 tonne gatling gun" :-)

High-tech weaponry has to be more effective than low tech, if only to justify
the (almost invariably) massive cost increases. I already have variant stats
worked out, but this produces the problem of diverging from the official rules,
which makes new GDW products less useful, as others have already commented on.


------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6121
From: ihlpl!zonker@att.uucp
Subject: Re: Moscow
Date: 	Tue, 5 Oct 1993 07:18:52 -0600

The reporters on CNN are as bad as ever at IDing vehicles.  The smaller
tracked vehicles were BMP APCs, the 8 wheeled ones were BTR APCs.  Several
four wheeled scout cars called BRDMs were also shown.  The live footage
showing a BMP leading a company of BTRs had the BMP called a tank, then
a SP Howitzer, then finally an APC while another commentator miss-named
all Russian APCs as BMPs.  The BMP had its gun wrapped in a canvass cover
so it looked larger, so to some extent I understand their mistake.  Also
the BTR with a large rectangular box instead of the gun turret is the
radio version of the vehicle (none of the news media seemed to catch this).
					Tom Harris

------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6122
Subject: Re: Hello All.
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 93 9:52:29 CDT
From: goldman@orac.cray.com (Goldman of Chaos -- postmaster CRI-US)
Reply-To: goldman@orac.cray.com

> From: l.wiseman1@genie.geis.com
> Date: Mon,  4 Oct 93 04:11:00 BST
>    Matthew Goldman:
>    > Is there anyone left at GDW who can spell correctly?
>    Yep. I can even spell Marc's name correctly (he prefers it
>   with a "c" rather than a k).

Point taken. :-)

>    > Did Mark take the editors with him or were they
>    > killed in the crossfire?
>    (You're not adding emoticons, Matt...people will think you're serious)

Sorry.  For those who missed it. :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)  :-)

On a serious note, why are there so many typos and stuff that looks
like no one ever read over the rules after they were typed in?  Or is
it just that I'm noticing the typos more now.

Thanks for the update on Marc Miller.

>    > Is Dave Nilsen realy Lucan?
>    No. Lacking a time machine and a means of exiting a fictitious
>   universe (and don't I wish I had blueprints for either one of
>   those!), Lucan cannot be working for GDW under the name of Dave
>   Nilsen. : )

But it might make an interesting plot for a time travel adventure. :-)

>    > Anyone interested in chipping in to reprint Classic Traveller
>    > after the copyrights expire?
>    Remains to be seen. Why don't you collect the money now and
>   invest it in a few long-term growth stocks to insure you have
>   enough working capital by then? That way a few dollars up front
>   would pay huge dividends later. : )

Good suggestion.

>    > The Traveller Workstation, the Traveller CD, and
>    > the Traveller's Referee Toolkit wouldn't be hard to
>    > do with TODAY's available hardware.  And the
>    > names are my ideas, so there!
>    Traveller is GDW's trademark for its SF roleplaying game, and
>   trademarks, unlike copyrights, _don't_ expire. Perhaps we can
>   discuss a licensing arrangement when 2030 rolls around? : )

Assuming that the trademarks are still active. :-)  Perhaps I and
everyone else should stop talking about Traveller on the TML so that
Traveller falls into disuse?  :-)

>   They pay cash money, something GDW needs at this point in time.
>  the toys if you are offended by them.

Suggestion with 1/2 :-):  Offer a complete set of Classic Traveller
books on CD rom.  Take prepayments with the condition that the CD will
be printed if and only if a certain number of orders come in.  A week
or two with an OCR scanner an you'd be all set.  You could even break
it down into a number of CDs, Combined Rules, Adventures, Supplements,
Journals, etc.

I've already printed up a CD case cover for Disc 1: Combined
Rules.  Don't worry, I don't intend to sell it.  I had not
bought a new Traveller product in quite some time and had to do
something about it.  :-)

- --
Matthew Goldman  E-mail: goldman@orac.cray.com Work: (612) 683-3061

My day today? Nothing major, just Xenon base gone, Scorpio gone,
Tarrant dead, Tarrant alive and then I found out Blake sold us out.

------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6123
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 93 13:35:22 BST
From: "Anthony K. Baggaley" <MCDAPAB@cms.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk>
Subject: Traveller Toys...

 Loren, your reply about BENDY ROBOT TOYS got the left hand side chopped off,
  but the bit about doing it for the money got through....that s what I hoped
  it was, or maybe deep down I'm slightly disappointed, I did check it several
  times to make sure it wasn't connected to Traveller. After all a lot of
  RPGers (including me) grew up in the era of Star Wars toys, maybe part of me
  still wants....
                 Traveller: The Action Figures
        featuring
                 Strephon (with removable Crown and Cape)
           Robot Strephon (with removable Head)
                 Dulinor  (with removable Crown and 9mm Magnum Revolver)
                 Lucan    (with removable Crown and SMG)
                 Vargr    (with assorted weapons)
                 Imperial Marines (various Factions)
                 Dolphin (with real swimming action!)

          Iridium Throne Playset
          Scout Courier Action Set/Figure Case (with Beam+Pulse Laser Noises)

  Would they sell? Would Traveller Fans buy them? Play with them?

  Anyway, I found the appearence of a BENDY ROBOT TOYS page funnier than TNS
 (I'm easily pleased)

  Re: Matt Goldman on the Traveller Workstation
      Ah, we can but dream (at the moment). I love the idea, but wouldn't the
  whole of GDWs, FASAs and DGPs published material fit on one CD ROM, especial-
  ly if illos were cut back? You could probably fit HIWGs stuff as well, I've
  got a lot of it and it doesn't take up much room on the hard drive (since
  it's all ASCII).
      Another thing- I thought copyright continued for a certain period of
  time from the *death of the author*. Now that would be a dilemma.

      And since Traveller is a Trademark, how about "Travelogue- Adventure in
  the Not Quite As Far Future"

                    Anyones
                       Anthony K.

 "When Life gives me Dilemmas, I make Dilmmanade" Julie Milbury, Nurses

------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6124
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 93 11:11:45 -0400
From: sco@po.cwru.edu (The Flynnman)
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 6094-6101 V62#2

>Bundle: 502
>Archive-Message-Number: 6094
>Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 19:38:03 MST
>From: Steve Gibbons <steve@nereid.sunquest.com>
>Reply-To: steve@sunquest.com
>
>The subject was left blank on purpose.  Sort of a commentary on _some_ of the
>threads that have been propogating here, lateley.
>
>Come on, people!  Traveller (whatever the incarnation) is a role-playing
>game.  Now, let's look at each of those words one at a time...

Wow! What a novel realization.

>I'll shut-up now, 'cause I've probably P.O.d half of the list at this point.
>I apologize for being pedantic and repetative, but I just _had_ to get this
>off of my chest.
>
>- --
>Steve@Sunquest.COM

There are some of us out here that whole heartedly support your idea.  I
have been a long time advocate of changing the rules if they do not suit
you.  That is one of the great things about role playing games.  I have
read posts from people that say how bad they think TNE is, and that they
have used the rules and thrown out the background.  That is perfectly O.K.
I happen to like the background of TNE and will use it as I used
MegaTraveller.  Sometimes people need a change, and although I miss Classic
Traveller, I welcome the New Era with open arms.

The Flynnman

- --
Sean C. O'Toole    | Theta Chi Fraternity | In Service to the Dragon Throne
Political Science  |   Beta Nu  Chapter   |       Patrick Angus Flynn
sco@po.CWRU.Edu    |   "Men Since 1856"   |        House Bean an Oir
Go POSC - xx087    | CWRU - Go Spartans!! |    Barony of  the Cleftlands
       "All I ask is for a tall ship, and a star to steer her by."



------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6125
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 93 09:15:36 MDT
From: rogopp@build1.Auto-trol.COM (Roger Opperman)
Subject: Tracked Vehicles


The little guys are BMDs.  They are designed to be air-droppable and
transportable and are used by the Soviet airborne forces as a squad or
fire team carrier.  The closest equivalent I can think of is the Brit
Bren Carrier from WWII.  They offer more protection and better armor
than a Jeep and I don't think calling them an APC is too far off the
mark.  If anyone is interested I can go dig out the specs from my
books at home.

The bigger wheeled vehicles are BTRs, either -50 or -60.  They are
more like a Tech *7* APC, having been replaced by the more capable and
upgunned BMP in the middle 80s.


Roger Opperman
rogopp@auto-trol.com
Auto-Trol Technology Corporation

------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6126
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 93 11:50:08 -0400
From: sco@po.cwru.edu (The Flynnman)
Subject: Data line connection for GDW

Does GDW operate a BBS that one might be able to download new product=
 info
or possible an updated errata for TNE?

The Flynnman

- --
Sean C. O'Toole    | Theta Chi Fraternity | In Service to the Dragon=
 Throne
Political Science  |   Beta Nu  Chapter   |        Fl=E1nn mac Fl=F3inn
sco@po.CWRU.Edu    |   "Men Since 1856"   |        House Bean an=
 Oir
Go POSC - xx087    | CWRU - Go Spartans!! |    Barony of  the Cleftlands
       "All I ask is for a tall ship, and a star to steer her by."

------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6127
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 1993 14:05:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: S_DMOODY@pstcc.cc.tn.us
Subject: More Questions and Comments

Since I happen to have some free time, I figure I'd put it to good use here.

From: Dane Johnson  <djohnson@willamette.edu>
>...and the CNN correspondant keeps tagging
>these small, tracked vehicles as APCs...There are also larger wheeled
>vehicles which look an awful lot like ye olde standard TL 8 APC, so
>I was wondering if the commentator is justing flubbing or is the
>Soviet method of identifying armored vehicles that different from the
>US's?

Its according to who you ask.  An APC can be no more than a combat-taxi that
takes troops into the battle area and releases them, up to a full Armoured
Fighting Vehicle (AFV) that allows troops to effectively fire out of the
vehicle and utilize the vehicles armaments(usually autocannons and/or ATGMs).
Probably, the commentator knows of only three types of army vehicles, "jeeps",
"tanks", and "APC's".  Most call the Bradley and APC even though is it an AFV.

>>james vassilakos writes:
>> You can write your own stuff
>> Actually, we all can.
>> I, personally, would be willing to throw in my bit if others would do the
>>  same.
Jase replies:
>So that's the solution then. All of us on the TML band up together to write our
>own Traveller New New Era.
>I agree with the chaps. Magic occurs when you play Classic Trav - you can feel
>it, the game has soul Even, or especially, when you tinker with the rules a bit
>- - my own change was to use the Striker combat system rather than the clunky
>original one. MT and TNE are cold and lifeless. I had high hopes for TNE but
>the typos and everything have killed it for me.
>Come on, let's do it. And for heaven's sake let's keep the stats the same as CT
>so we can all use our fave characters with our nice new classic system.

'Struth!  Although I think MT has much more soul than TNE (Anything > nothing).
I'm more than willing to help on the Traveller:The REAL New Era background.
Although I believe the CT rules can stand some modification, mostly they were
more than useable( as were the MT rules).  The magic came from the Universe.

And, form Loren Wiseman:
>  and then with #72 it [TNS] starts up again, date-
>  lined after the Virus. It is not intended to be a kick in the
>  gonads to anybody or anything.

But what can it say?

001-1201 Regina/Spinward Marches
	Traveller Universe still in the tinkler; large areas still overprinted
with gray.

	Except for the Domain, where could TAS still really be active?  And who
cares what happens in the wilds?

>  I never cared much for MegaTraveller, and lost enthusiasm for
>  the game when it came out. I like the new system, and am working
>  with Traveller products again because of it. (Some Classic
>  Traveller Grognards have expressed delight at this last bit of news.)

Why not?  Was it a greater abomination of Traveller than your TNE?;-)  I will
admit my own feelings here.  If the name on the cover of the TNE book had been
anything else but Traveller, I would have though that it was a fairly decent
game.  Good character rules, good combat rules (not dangerous enough, but
fixable, although given a choice between the Grav tank in TNE and the M1 in
T:2K, I'll take the M1- WOW! MY high tech tank stinks!), OK setting.
The complaint: It trashed all that was noble about Traveller.

>   Matthew Goldman:
>     Does anyone know the real story of why Mark Miller left GDW?

Wiseman replies:
>   Yep.

Why, WHY, WHY did he leave?  Should I send my Vargr corsair to rescue
him?  Who do we have to pay off?

>  He is a member of the GDW board of directors, an officer of the
>  corporation, and stops in the office to visit fairly often (I
>  spoke with him yesterday, in fact). He remains interested in what
>  we are doing with his game.

But does he LIKE what you are doing to his game?

		-Vanya
			"Never let your morals prevent you
			from doing what's right."
		


------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6128
Date:     Tue, 5 Oct 93 14:32:12 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@cbda8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Various

l.wiseman1@genie.geis.com (Loren Wiseman) writes:
>    >I'd give anything to see a rack of those little black books
>    > in a games store again.
>    Seriously, we quit selling them because almost nobody was
>   buying them. Not enough of them were being sold to pay the taxes
>   on the unsold inventory we had in stock. This is the death knell
>    for a product, as you can't stay in business very long selling
>    items that cost you money instead of making it.

Sigh.  Too true.  So, what _is_ selling well these days?  Also, is there
any chance that you could recap the history behind the Classic->MT shift
sometime?  I'm sure a lot of us would be interested.

>    > I suspect that, for the most part, the TML is made up of
>    > generally older, 'More Mature' fans
>    I agree with you to an extent. I don't know about the average
>   age of the TML, but the more vocal TMLers seem to be long-time
>   Traveller fanatics, like myself and Dave Nilsen.

I bought into Traveller in 1977, approximately the same day that the
box hit my local hobby shop. (-:  That was half of my lifetime back.
Frightening, eh?

>    > Anyone interested in chipping in to reprint Classic Traveller
>    > after the copyrights expire?
>    Remains to be seen.
>    Traveller is GDW's trademark for its SF roleplaying game, and
>   trademarks, unlike copyrights, _don't_ expire. Perhaps we can
>   discuss a licensing arrangement when 2030 rolls around? : )

Just as a matter of idle curiosity, what sort of terms would you license use
of the Traveller tm under now?  Suppose, for purposes of this example, that
I wanted to publish a collection of mini-adventures in a close approximation
of the old format (64 page, digest sized, etc.)...

Rob Dean
(very quiet lately, as I have not bought TNE or BL)


------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6129
From: mgood@MIT.EDU
Subject: TNE/BL Erratta, Space:1889 list
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 93 19:11:48 EDT

Hi!

Howdy!

I volunteer to scan in the TNE/BL erratta and post it in ascii to this list,
unless someone else beats me to it (James?).

On a different topic:
So that all three of us can talk about Space:1889 and not bother anyone on
this list, I've set up a Space:1889 list here at MIT. If you would like to
be added to the list, please send mail to:

space-1889-request@mit.edu

and I'll send you a very brief info message.

Matt "Mr. List" Goodman

------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6130
From: antilles@aol.com
Reply-To: <antilles@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 93 21:05:24 EDT
Subject: Traveller Mailing List

Subscribe Traveller Mailing List -- Digest

antilles@aol.com

------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6131
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 1993 19:47:38 -0700 (MST)
From: "Matthew Thomas Kerwin" <15623@ef.gc.maricopa.edu>
Subject:

Has anyone heard from DGP lately? Have they put out a timetable for when
AI is coming out?

*-------------------------------------------------------*
|Matthew Kerwin               15623@EF.GC.MARICOPA.EDU  |
| "I didn't do it.            Glendale Community College|
| Nobody saw me do it.             Glendale, AZ         |
| You can't prove anything."                            |
|  -Bart Simpson.                                       |
*-------------------------------------------------------*

------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6132
From: mgood@MIT.EDU
Subject: TNE Erratta Sheets/Ascii Conversion, Replies.
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 93 23:42:19 EDT

A Clarification From My Last Message:
I'll send in the TNE Erratta in ascii WHEN I RECEIVE IT.
Which I haven't.  Sorry if you suffered any confusion over this.

I agree with the people who have said:
1) hi tech weapons should, in general, do more damage, than lower tech ones,
and
2) that combat is too survivable now.

One of the characters in my campaign could take a fusion rifle
hit in the chest, take full damage (84 pts) and still be alive,
and still be at the slight wound level.  Sure, he's tough, but
nobody should be THAT tough.  The rules do seem to be geared towards
character survival, something that wasn't present in CT, esp. since
you could die during character generation :-)

However, I've killed many Champions characters.  It's actually
pretty easy....

I'm not sure I understand the people complaining about TNE not
having a soul...  guess I'm to insensitive :-)

CT was one of my favorite games.  MT was too complicated, esp. the
ship construction.  In terms of skill mechanics, TNE tops the list
of any game that's available, because the skill system is easy and
quick, while having most of the detail of the MT system with only
one roll.

I also think people are really being odd about the setting.  Why
can't you have merchant activities?  I would think merchants would
be in high demand.  Not all planets were blasted back to the
stone age (look at the Virus Effect table, or whatever it's called,
that shows you how to reduce the stats of planets).

Many planets are going to be in the 7-9 TL range, and they're going
to WANT to pick up interstellar trade again with their neighbors,
for all the same reasons they did before the collapse.

And as to diplomacy, what could be a greater Diplomatic task than
rebuilding the Imperium, forging the Empire one planet at a time?

I also think everything that has evolved in the Traveller universe
has done so using the historical background that was in place with
Classic Traveller.  The Civil War following the Frontier War was
an established pattern.  The Imperium had already been through one
Long Night, here it is happening again, but from different causes.
History repeats itself in real life, why shouldn't a game so strongly
grounded in its own history do so as well?  Empires rise and fall.
TNE COULD BE about the rise of the Fourth Imperium.  This is the main
theme of my campaign.

I don't see the large amount of background info going away: it just
has evolved.

Vanya  says:
> So why did they trash the
>Imperium?  Pety infighting? Ecenomic desires? Lack of originality (Gosh, we
>cant think up all these new names for planets, lots just use the old ones.)

I think the Virus is pretty original.  I also fail to see how a major
evolution in the setting as lack of originality.  Ummmm... Petty infighting
between who about what?

I am curious as to what happened to Marc Miller.  I didn't think anything
had, until Loren's reply.  What happend to the folks who "made" MegaTraveller,
the guys and gals at Digest Publications Group.  Are they No More?  I can't
find their products on the shelves, but heck, I'm in Boston :-(

Also, Vanya's background is cool too, but I prefer the TNE one because, yes,
I like the Virus.

I still don't get what you guys are all upset about: if you want to
do Classic Traveller, set it in Deneb or the Hive Federation.  The
setting hasn't been trashed, it's evolved.

Matt "Seems to be Defending TNE alot" Goodman

------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6133
Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 2:55:53 -0500 (CDT)
From: RJR96326@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU
Subject: 1889

  Sorry to use this address, but I deleted your other one accidentally.
	Also, the 1889 address bounced.

  I'd love to join your 1889 list, but have never thoroughly examined the game.
  I just thought the background was neat. What I am interested in is starting
  a GURPS list. Unfortunately, my site doesn't have the LISTSERV software,
  so I have to do it from another site.

  So my question (as you may have guessed) is:
  	How would I, if I may, go about setting up a list at your site? Who
  do I ask?

  Thanks a lot. Good luck on the 1889 list.


  J Roberson


------------------------------

Bundle: 504
Archive-Message-Number: 6134
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 93 13:11:17 EDT
From: "Dan Gosselin, OLIA-WGS, DTN 381-1999" <dan@midi.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Wanted: Classic Traveller product list

Hi,

I've been on the TML for a few months now but this is my first time writing in
so here go the formalities:

	Dan Gosselin, software engineer, avid Classic Traveller player (only!)
	since 1980.

Over the years, I've been building up my Classic Traveller collection and I'm
at the point now where I'm not sure what else is left that I'm missing.

Does anyone have a complete product listing of books, supplements, games, etc.,
that were published by GDW for the original (Classic) Traveller game?  I'm
also interested in aids produced by other companines like FASA but my main
goal right now is to find out what GDW produced before MegaTraveller.

Please send me E-mail at dan@midi.enet.dec.com or just reply to the TML for
everyone else's benefit.

Thanks!
Dan

------------------------------

Bundle: 505
Archive-Message-Number: 6135
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1993 18:22:51 -0400
From: gt6963c@prism.gatech.edu
Subject: Add me to the mailing list


I've sent mail to "traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca" twice now..
and I haven't recieved any sort of confirmation that I've
been added to the list (a confirmation message nor list mail),
So, I'm mailing directly to the list.

Please add me to the list as gt6963c@prism.gatech.edu
(that's the mail alias for our NIS/NFS)

Thanks

John

------------------------------

Bundle: 505
Archive-Message-Number: 6136
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 93 14:21:06 CDT
From: cmaddox@imsa.edu (Chuck Maddox)
Subject: Re: Sword Worlds {Additional Source Material}

>Mark Urbin writes:
>>I'm looking for info on the Sword Worlds.  I've got the CT _Spinward Marches_
>>book which lists the Sword Worlds subsector and JTAS #18 with the
>>_Contact:  The Sword Worlders_ article by Loren Wiseman.  I also have the
>>Broadsword Adventure book which lists some military units from Gram.
>>  Is there any other published material about the Sword Worlds?  I've also
>>read H. Beam Piper's _Space Viking_ several times.  I'd like to expand what's
>>known into The Sword Worlds of the New Era.  They are in the "Regency" area
>>and should be fairly intact (the Darrians should be also).

I just remembered another source or two for Sword World's Information:

One of the first Double Adventures (#2 I think) was "Across the Bright
Face/Mission on Mithril".  Mithril was at the time a Sword Worlds Planet.

The game "Fifth Frontier War" had information on the military units of all
of the combatants.

The Boxed adventure "Tarsus" had a detailed section on a group of Sword
World military refugees that co-habitated Tarsus.  There may even be
passing reference to Sword World activities in the second boxed adventure
"BeltStrike".  I'm sure BeltStrike mentions Darrian activities.  Both of
the above adventures were set in District 268.

There are numerious mentions in the Traveller News Service of the early JTAS's.

Hope that this helps.

Chuck

P.S.    I own originals of all the above material...
__________________________________________________________________________

    ___/         /  __  /   Chuck Maddox /// -- N9NON  (708)-907-5015
   /      /  /  /  __  /   cmaddox@imsasun.imsa.edu
_____/ __/__/__/ _____/   IL Math & Science Academy  Computer Technician



------------------------------

Bundle: 505
Archive-Message-Number: 6137
From: Glenn Myers <gem188@swanson.com>
Subject: BL shortcomings and campaigns
Date: Fri, 24 Sep 93 11:41:37 EDT


 TML:

	My name is Glenn Myers and I am new on the Traveller Mailing
	List. [Please don't exceed 78 columns in the future, Glenn, and
	mail your postings to traveller@engrg.uwo.ca, not
	traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca -- thanks! James]

	I am a mechanical engineer who works in the finite element
	analysis field. My experience is in structural, thermal, and
	electromagnetic analysis. In a previous career I was with the
	Navy, where I worked in underwater vehicle design. Needless to
	say, the starship design and combat rules are what makes or
	breaks a game for me. But I think the campaign setting shapes
	those rules in a manner which makes translation to another
	setting difficult and perhaps senseless.

	I have played Traveller for 10 years, and I do mean Traveller
	without any metric prefixes. I recognized the enhanced starship
	design rules of MegaTraveller, but I couldn't go with the
	rebellion setting. My campaign has been set in a pocket of human
	settled space removed from the Imperium (Just about where the
	Vanguard Reaches should be located). There is limited contact
	with the Spinward Marches. Starships are small and uncommon.
	Survivability of designs is of primary importance. The largest
	warships my players ever encountered was a 6000 ton "cruiser". I
	used the High Guard rules with a smattering of Book 2 thrown in
	where it made sense.

	I generally agree with Palmer Davis concerning BL rules. I miss
	PA barbettes and energy weapons. I dislike the bean counting
	approach to G-Turns. And if 12 headings are to be used, I'd
	rather just go back to the Book 2 vector system and my
	protractor.

 	I don't want hull cracking detonation laser missles. The High
 	Guard missles did a nice job of scraping the turrets of the hull
 	and leaving the useful wreck behind. The existing missles are
 	what happens when high stellar technology goes berserk without a
 	society to control it.

	The long turns and long ranges are due to the fact that fusion
	bombs are being used by combatants to knock each other out of
	space. In fact, most of my disputes with the new rules were
	spawned by the overkill of offensive weapons.

 	I dislike the large size of the map and game pieces. I feel that
 	the cover (and I use that term very loosely) of the rules book
 	is going to tear every time I open it. Physically, it looks like
 	something Judges Guild published.

	When I bought the rules I thought that what I didn't like I
	would be able to fix when FF&S came out. I'm afraid that many of
	the problems are side effects of the Virus campaign setting. It
	makes no sense for me to continue my campaign, but use the new
	rules.

	If anyone has alternate vector combat systems floating around
	which would be compatable with High Guard designs send me email.
	I'm always looking to improve what I use. Also, I'm looking for
	copies of High Lightning and Mayday to buy, barter or trade.

	I think I'd give anything to see a rack of those little black
	books in a games store again.


	TIA, Here's my card:

	 ----------------------------------
	 | Glenn E. Myers                 |
	 | gmyers@swanson.com             |
	 | QA software engineer           |
	 | Swanson Analysis Systems, Inc. |
	 | (412) 746-3304 x188            |
	 ----------------------------------

------------------------------

Bundle: 505
Archive-Message-Number: 6138
From: mgood@MIT.EDU
Subject: I wasn't sure if this was appropriate for the list
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 93 10:01:09 EDT

Use your own judgement as to it's worthy-ness.  It does include a rational
for anti-grav that probably won't show up the FF&S.  If you think it's
OK, go ahead and post it...

Forwarding deleted...

- - - ------- Forwarded Message

>From:   CRL::"cmayer@ksr.com" "Christopher M Mayer"   23-SEP-1993
10:02:45.40
Subj:   Buttered bread, cats, and spaceships!  (This is hillarious!)

(This question was posed to the Usenet Oracle:)

 If you drop a buttered piece of bread, it will fall on the
 floor butter-side down.  If a cat is dropped from a window
 or other high and towering place, it will land on its feet.

 But what if you attach a buttered piece of bread, butter-side
 up to a cat's back and toss them both out the window?
 Will the cat land on its feet?  Or will the butter splat on
 the ground?

And in response, thus spake the Oracle:

 Even if you are too lazy to do the experiment yourself you should be
 able to deduce the obvious result.  The laws of butterology demand
 that the butter must hit the ground, and the equally strict laws of
 feline aerodynamics demand that the cat can not smash its furry back.
 If the combined construct were to land, nature would have no way to
 resolve this paradox.  Therefore it simply does not fall.

 That's right you clever mortal (well, as clever as a mortal can get),
 you have discovered the secret of antigravity!  A buttered cat will,
 when released, quickly move to a height where the forces of
 cat-twisting and butter repulsion are in equilibrium.  This equilibrium
 point can be modified by scraping off some of the butter, providing
 lift, or removing some of the cat's limbs, allowing descent.

 Most of the civilized species of the Universe already use this
 principle to drive their ships while within a planetary system.  The
 loud humming heard by most sighters of UFOs is, in fact, the purring of
 several hundred tabbies.

 The one obvious danger is, of course, if the cats manage to eat the
 bread off their backs they will instantly plummet.  Of course the cats
 will land on their feet, but this usually doesn't do them much good,
 since right after they make their graceful landing several tons of
 red-hot starship and pissed-off aliens crash on top of them.

- - ------- End of Forwarded Message


------------------------------

Bundle: 505
Archive-Message-Number: 6139
From: att!ihlpl!zonker@sp-eug.com
Subject: Re: Jo's Ranting and other things
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 08:51:52 -0600

[Arrived at traveller-request mailbox, forwarded on to
traveller@engrg.uwo.ca by hand -- James]

To some extent I suppose my response here is redundant with Brent's, which
is that the background is something the GMs devise.  Even if you use the
background provided by a company the game material is still subject to
individual GMs interpretation and the needs of their game.  Frankly I have
always found the TNS to be a bit of a laugh since almost nothing published
in it should ever affect a game.  So, if you don't like TNE background
don't use it.  If you don't like a TNS story rewrite it.  Yes the GM will
have to be a little bit more creative about where things are going, but
that should be part of his job.

Frankly the people at GDW don't, won't and shouldn't care how you
use/modify their products.  To them the background is an example of how to
use their system, not the system.  Because of this "the example" will vary
widely to match their current views of the product line.  If they care
about anything it is the system and how it works.  Still they want you to
feel comfortable about using that system and if that means modifying rules
to suit your needs, so what?  Do you think that we would have anything but
Classic Traveller if they didn't tinker with the rules continually?  You
think pinning them down on Traveller is bad, try to pin them down on a
Command Decision point.  Anyhow this year was the first time I have ever
run a Traveller game that even claimed to be inside their background (and
I started playing the system before it was published) and that was only
because I was running a game at their booth at Gen-Con to support TNE.

Actually I like the TNE background better than either classic Traveller or
Mega-Traveller.  I don't particularly like how they got there, but this is
the first background that seems to feel like H. Beam Piper, Heinlein or
Starwars.  The universe is not wide open and movement requires great
will.  It is a people based background not "tech".  To me it is the
characters that count and games where all the problems are solved by
technology are not as exciting as those that require human innovation.
It is a background where characters can actually influence the course of
history.  It may be darker than the old Imperium, but it doesn't have to
be any bloodier (that is up to the GM).  I like rickety old space hulks
plodding around from planet to planet trying to make a living.  Captains
finding innovative ways to get that part to keep the engine going.  I like
being able to explore planets as a player (something lacking in the
previous versions) and being able to do anything I want with planets as a
GM.  Of course if I were to run a game I would probably let several
hundred years or even several thousand pass.  This would really allow me
to experiment with planetary societies (sigh, once an Anthropologist
always...).  My own classic Traveller campaign was not set in the Imperium
because I thought the Imperium was too "homo sapien".  I wanted a very
much more Starwars type universe (or should I say Star Trek like since the
show was probably a bigger influence than the movies which were just being
made, but I knew I wanted lots of aliens in the game).  I also wanted to
be able to create cultures on various planets for the characters to
explore, something you just couldn't do in the Imperium with its big
monolithic society.

To set the record straight, Mark Miller was not booted out (he was an owner
after all, not an employee), from everything I have heard his leaving was
his idea.  As far as I know he did not leave in anger either, in fact he
stopped by the GDW booth at Gen-Con this year and it was obvious that
everyone was still friends.  (He went with the company to Gen-Con the year
before as part of the company).  I actually get the impression that he
wanted something more than being a game designer for the rest of his
life.  Certainly a person with Mark's reputation could get another a job
inside the hobby if he wanted one.  Currently I've been told he is selling
insurance.  As far as spelling and mistakes go, everyone seems to be
forgetting that Megatraveller was done under Mark's direction.  Actually
the person who seemed to have the best control over errors and spelling
was actually Rich Banner (who ran the back end of game production
[i.e. art and text] at the time Classic Traveller was put out).  This is
not to say that Rich had a particular talent at text processing, but that
his gaming experience made him a better proof reader for game related
errors than the art-professional/non-gamers who replaced him.

					Tom Harris

------------------------------

Bundle: 505
Archive-Message-Number: 6140
Date: Mon, 4 Oct 93 15:13:18 -0400
From: dkelly@acpub.duke.edu (Diane Kelly)
Subject: Space: 1889

[Forwarded to traveller@engrg.uwo.ca, as came naught but to
traveller-request. The auto-replies do this on PURPOSE, folks, so
endeavor to override them -- James]

	I would love to see an 1889 mailing list, or at least an occasional
email correspondence club.  Glad to hear that others are interested as well --
let's hope GDW gets the word.  Of course, they need to see this interest
reflected in sales.  If everyone who thought it might be interesting had gone
out and bought the game when it was released, there might be a second edition
by now.
	And the Traveller fans shouldn't get too upset over discussions of
1889; just think of it as a specialized subset of Traveller which only takes
place on TL4 worlds.

Jim Cambias
1889 Minor Deity
Misusing His Wife's Internet Account

------------------------------
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 505  6135 06-Oct-1993 gt6963c@prism.g  Add me to the mailing list << I've sent
 505  6136 21-Sep-1993 Chuck Maddox     Re: Sword Worlds {Additional Source Mat
 505  6137 24-Sep-1993 Glenn Myers      BL shortcomings and campaigns <<  TML:
 505  6138 27-Sep-1993 mgood@MIT.EDU    I wasn't sure if this was appropriate f
 505  6139 30-Sep-1993 att!ihlpl!zonke  Re: Jo's Ranting and other things << [A
 505  6140 04-Oct-1993 Diane Kelly      Space: 1889 << [Forwarded to traveller@
 505  6141 07-Oct-1993 Chris Bray       DGP & TNE <<    In regards to someone's
 505  6142 06-Oct-1993 RJR96326@VAX1.U  Old v New << Hey, in CT and MT you coul
 505  6143 07-Oct-1993 Robert S. Dean   Re:  Wanted: Classic Traveller product
 505  6144 07-Oct-1993 Robert S. Dean   Re:  Jo's Ranting and other things << a
 505  6145 07-Oct-1993 mgood@MIT.EDU    Last Word on 1889 List (I Hope) << Hi!
 505  6146 07-Oct-1993 Glenn Myers      More BL comments << Hi All,
 505  6147 07-Oct-1993 James T Perkins  Oops! and Computer-Aided-Traveller << t
 505  6148 06-Oct-1993  Mark Richard D  Brilliant Lances problems << I've been
 505  6149 07-Oct-1993 S_DMOODY@pstcc.  Trashing != Originality: TNE Rants << M
 505  6150 07-Oct-1993 "THOMS, KEITH"   RE: TNE Replies <<   Not to flame your
 505  6151 07-Oct-1993 "BORIS ZAIDFELD  I Like TNE << Chris Bray Wrote:

------------------------------

Bundle: 505
Archive-Message-Number: 6141
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 1993 11:11:26 +1000 (EST)
From: Chris Bray <cs576112@lux.latrobe.edu.au>
Reply-To: Chris Bray <cs576112@lux.latrobe.edu.au>
Subject: DGP & TNE


   In regards to someone's question regarding DGP's product 'AI',
unfortunately this editor doesn't allow me to include the mail, so forgive
me whoever you are.

	According to Loren the folks in charge of DGP were having problems
outside of the company, and this had delayed the release of their product.
I have not seen any indication on when this will come out (the fact that
I have only started seeing issue 4 of the MegaTraveller's Journal could
have something to do with this).

	Another point, I am overjoyed that TML is starting to get postings
from people who are pro-TNE.  I was suffering in silence for a while as the
system/setting/editing/etc was put down, and considered leaving the list.

	As this doesn't seem to be the case I will continue reading, and
soon posting some information.  If anyone wants some TL-11 and 12 variant
traders, call me and I will put them to the list for your perusal.

Chris Bray

aka hook
how do I get my .sig file in here now?


------------------------------

Bundle: 505
Archive-Message-Number: 6142
Date:    Wed, 6 Oct 1993 21:57:32 -0500 (CDT)
From: RJR96326@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU
Subject: Old v New

Hey, in CT and MT you could have exploration of new worlds, interaction with
unmentioned aliens, and shugging along hoping your ship doesn't fall apart.
The Imperium is so vast that there are bound to be undiscovered world; Minor
Races cover the Star Trek "Look-like-human-with-weird-skin/eyes'antennae/has-a-
collander-on-his-head" aliens. And Free Traders are ALWAYS hoping the engine
works.

In short, don't disparage one for the other. It IS the same game, at different
points of evolution. All forms are open enough for a variety of adventures.


J Roberson

------------------------------

Bundle: 505
Archive-Message-Number: 6143
Date:     Thu, 7 Oct 93 8:55:16 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@cbda8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  Wanted: Classic Traveller product list

In your letter dated Wed, 6 Oct 93 13:11:17 EDT, you wrote:
> ...a complete product listing of books, supplements, games, etc.,
> that were published by GDW for the original (Classic) Traveller game?

Without actually listing all the titles, GDW produced:

Books 0-8
Supplements 1-13
Adventures 1-13
Double Adventures 1-6
Aliens 1-8
JTAS 1-24

Large format booklets: Atlas of the Imperium
                       The Spinward Marches Campaign
                       Alien Realms

Books: The Traveller Book (rules, hard and soft cover versions)
       The Traveller Adventure

Boxed Sets: Tarsus
            Belt Strike

Games: Mayday
       Snapshot
       Azhanti High Lightning
       Invasion Earth
       Fifth Frontier War

Miniatures Rules: Striker

A few other exotic bits from GDW exist, such as the "Map of the Imperium"
they used to give away at cons, an Aliens handout, and a free booklet called
"Introduction to Traveller", plus various maps of the Spinward Marches.

The rules exist in the following main versions:

     Traveller <three booklets in box>
     Deluxe Traveller <five booklets, including "The Imperial Fringe" adventure
                       only found in this set>
     Starter Traveller <Two 8 1/2 by 11 booklets plus versions of the double
                        adventures "Shadows" and "Mission on Mithril">
     The Traveller Book

Various foreign language versions exist as well.  I'm very favorably impressed
with the choice of materials in the German edition.

Supplements by other companies (but not their magazines) can be found listed
in "Heroic Worlds" by Lawrence Schick, still in print as far as I know.  The
publisher is Prometheus Press, and I got mine on special order from the local
Walden Books, so it can't be too hard to find.

All this discussion of Classic Traveller caused me to restack my collection
a couple of days ago, so it's all fresh in my mind at the moment. (-:

Rob Dean
(any classic trav games in the Baltimore area?)


------------------------------

Bundle: 505
Archive-Message-Number: 6144
Date:     Thu, 7 Oct 93 9:22:19 EDT
From: Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@cbda8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  Jo's Ranting and other things

att!ihlpl!zonker@sp-eug.com (Tom Harris) writes:
> Subject: Re: Jo's Ranting and other things

> So, if you don't like TNE background
> don't use it.  If you don't like a TNS story rewrite it.  Yes the GM will
> have to be a little bit more creative about where things are going, but
> that should be part of his job.

     I agree with you, Tom, but only partially.  From my point of view,
the main problem with an SF game is that it can/should be BIG.  As a result,
my imagination gets stretched a lot more than it would if I was playing a
fantasy game of typical scope.  So, the more stuff that the publisher puts
out that I can reasonably use, the more creative time I can put into
other aspects of the game, giving a more textured background overall.

> Frankly the people at GDW don't, won't and shouldn't care how you
> use/modify their products.  To them the background is an example of how to
> use their system, not the system.

     I disagree, for pretty much the same reasons that I mention above.
I don't think that I'm the only person incorporating published material
into my game as a timesaver, and therefore I feel that GDW has a very
pertinent interest in keeping me buying their products.  So, they should
be interested in what use I am making of their products.

     I'm speaking fairly generally, of course--In specific, TNE appears to
be a sufficiently radical shift from previous material that GDW must be
expecting to lose some members of the hardcore fandom of the previous
editions, a category that will probably include me.  I'm waiting for FF&S
to appear before making a final decision.  Beyond that point TNE products
will only be of interest to me if I can fit them back into the Classic/MT
framework.  (Like the miniatures...status, anyone?)

     GDW is free to make wahtever business decisions they feel they need to.
I am free to spend my money on whatever I like. As long as both sides realize
that other side is making a rational economic decision, everyone can remain
calm. (-:

Enough said,

Rob Dean
(Lifespan as Traveller fan: 50%+)


------------------------------

Bundle: 505
Archive-Message-Number: 6145
From: mgood@MIT.EDU
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 09:53:43 -0400
Subject: Last Word on 1889 List (I Hope)

Hi!

The place to send mail to be on the Space:1889 list is:

space-1889-request@mit.edu

This WILL work now.  I apologize to the regular TML'ers for
the confusion.

Matt

------------------------------

Bundle: 505
Archive-Message-Number: 6146
From: Glenn Myers <gem188@swanson.com>
Subject: More BL comments
Date: Thu, 7 Oct 93 11:49:14 EDT

Hi All,

Sorry about the repeat post yesterday. Apparently a message I thought was
dead was resurrected by James. I appreciate the effort.

So, having given my first impressions (complaints) of BL, I felt it was
appropriate to comment further now that I've used it more.


 First, some things I like:

The new BL ship design rules seem much better than MT. So much better that I
may finally replace my High Guard system. The design process seems much more
sensible. Still, I wish GDW had included a sample design to help bring us up
to speed. I've already set up a spreadsheet for designing ships and I wish I
had a benchmark to verify it.

My great hope is that FF&S will permit us to extend the rules to cover items
which were not included in BL. These would include energy weapons, black
globes and other systems I've grown used to having in my Universe.

IMHO, the design rules seem to "look and feel" like CT the more I use them.
I like the concept of weapon sockets. Again, I hope FF&S will permit design
of new and different sockets.


 Some things I don't like:

The general trend is that the new system creates designs that are less
capable, cost more, and require many more crew members. Has anyone looked at
the 400 ton Patrol Cruiser? Nineteen crew members are now required. In
fairness, there are some exceptions. The Fiery CE costs less and seems as
capable. Still, there are 22 crew versus 10 previously.

From the above it would seem that turning a profit on trading ships will be
tougher. Any thoughts on this anyone?



If anyone has worked out the design sequence to the patrol cruiser please
post it or email it to me. I need to check my numbers.

By the way, is CAT still in existence? If so I'd like to be included but
I haven't heard anything from them in a while.


TTFN

Glenn


 ----------------------------------
 | Glenn E. Myers                 |
 | gmyers@swanson.com             |
 | QA software engineer           |
 | Swanson Analysis Systems, Inc. |
 | (412) 746-3304 x188            |
 ----------------------------------



------------------------------

Bundle: 505
Archive-Message-Number: 6147
Subject: Oops! and Computer-Aided-Traveller
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Administrator)
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 93 09:59:01 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@sp-eug.com>

traveller-request writes:
> Sorry about the repeat post yesterday. Apparently a message I thought was
> dead was resurrected by James. I appreciate the effort.

Sorry for the mis-repost, thanks for the appreciation....

> By the way, is CAT still in existence? If so I'd like to be included but I
> haven't heard anything from them in a while.

Absolutely, write to BOTH Dan Corrin (dan@engrg.uwo.ca, the list admin)
and Richard Johnson (richard@agora.rain.com, the ringleader) to be added
to CAT. It's been quiet lately, but it's still a worthwhile list.

James

__   __/         /   /	    Internet Traveller Mailing List, Administrator
    /     /  /  /   /	   James T. Perkins in Eugene, Oregon, USA
 __/   __/__/__/ _____/   traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca

------------------------------

Bundle: 505
Archive-Message-Number: 6148
From: mdewis@pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au ( Mark Richard Dewis)
Subject: Brilliant Lances problems
Date: Wed, 6 Oct 93 19:28:13 EST

I've been told that this address can give me advice on queries re
Traveller problems, so here goes:

I've just brought _Brilliant Lances_ and am quite impressed by the
product, but have found a few annoying problems.

Firstly, while the mechanics of damaging crewmembers are quite clear,
there is no mention of the effect of crew loss. It seems to me that
there should be some degradation of ship performance for losing, say
half the bridge crew or engineering crew, but this is not addressed.
(casualties to other crew areas such as damcon and gunnery are
obvious)

Secondly, there is a discrepancy between the TNE rules and Brilliant
Lances rules in the number of fire phases in an half-hour combat
turn.  TNE says ten of three minutes each; BL says one. Common sense
says TNE is right, but ease of play says go with BL. Since both
rules sets use the same damage and armour stats, is this a slip-up,
or a change of policy?

Thirdly, the new ship design sequence makes no mention of a tonnage
based cap on the number of turrets installed on a ship, or the old
100 ton minimum on starships.  Is this an omission, or have these
limits been removed?  If so, are "message torpedoes" (jump capable
drones of low tonnage with data storage payloads) now possible?
what about low power anti-missile laser mini-turrets (range 300,000 km;
damage 4 and penetration 1 would kill any of the standard missiles).

Thanks,


- -- Mark Dewis, 13 years an Aussie Traveller - still going strong!

mdewis@pieman.compserv.utas.edu.au ... but you can call me Richard.
Forma Propositum Perpetuo Praecedit.

------------------------------

Bundle: 505
Archive-Message-Number: 6149
Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1993 14:31:55 -0400 (EDT)
From: S_DMOODY@pstcc.cc.tn.us
Subject: Trashing != Originality: TNE Rants

Matt "Seems to be Defending TNE alot" Goodman says:
>I don't see the large amount of background info going away: it just
>has evolved.
	and
>I think the Virus is pretty original.  I also fail to see how a major
>evolution in the setting as lack of originality.

Matt, If it seems your defending TNE a lot, you are. THIS IS NOT BAD!  Indeed,
the universe of Traveller can support many flavors of gaming, and TNE joins the
ranks as one of them.  However, the flavor of TNE is not one that I
particularly like.  Criticisims are not necessarilly attacks, and I hope we on
the TML are advanced enough to realize the difference.  Your defense is the
other side of the discussion, which I thank you for.  Its just that TNE gives
me the willies!  It just feels more like T:2000 and Warhammer40K than Traveller.

Dont get me wrong, I hope TNE sells like Milk-Bones on Lair, if, perhaps, only
to keep GDW alive.  GDW ranks as one of the five great gaming companies ever.
I also hope that TNE brings in more new Traveller players who might end up
exploring the different universes of Traveller (Classic and Mega) that we know
and love, universes that are more representative of the 'soul' of Traveller.

I do feel that the planetary societies in TNE couldnt have evolved in the
70-some years after the Zap.  Two, three centuries, yes, but not this quick.
This major evolution in the setting consists of destroying all that has been
built before.  You dont have to be original to be destructive.

>I still don't get what you guys are all upset about: if you want to
>do Classic Traveller, set it in Deneb or the Hive Federation.  The
>setting hasn't been trashed, it's evolved.

The Traveller universe didnt have a chance to evolve.  The Virus killed it.
I for one, will not be happy contained in a 'preserve'.

Its evolved into a lifeless parody of what it was.  If I want to do Classic
Traveller, I'll do Clasic Traveller and use my TNE book as a doorstop (which is
about what its doing now).  The TNE Domain is not the Domain we grew up in.
Unlike real life, I CAN go home again in Traveller.  TNE is too depressing to
ever WANT to go home.  In response, I'll say:"if you want to do TNE, set it in
some gorforsaken unchartered sector and leave our Imperium alone.  The setting
doesnt have to be trashed, let it evolve."  Our Imperium is not the Imperium of
GDW.

As for the buttered bread, cats, and spaceships, WOW! :-)  This makes much more
sense that the antigrav>contragrav change in TNE.

				-Vanya

"There's three of us,       	-Az Duoth, Vargr corsair,
so we'll need two spoons." 	ordering desert with his two
				(ahem)'dinner companions.'
				051-1115 Aramis/Spinward Marches

------------------------------

Bundle: 505
Archive-Message-Number: 6150
Date: 7 Oct 93 16:26:00 EST
From: "THOMS, KEITH" <KTHOMS@nccs-evax.navy.mil>
Subject: RE: TNE Replies

  Not to flame your defense (in fact I concur with most of it), but
let me point out:

Matt "Seems to be Defending TNE alot" Goodman said:

>... Why
>can't you have merchant activities?  I would think merchants would
>be in high demand.  Not all planets were blasted back to the
>stone age (look at the Virus Effect table, or whatever it's called,
>that shows you how to reduce the stats of planets).
>
>Many planets are going to be in the 7-9 TL range,

  I agree merchants will be in high demand, but the background is
not geared toward massive economic activity like in Classic Trav.
There won't be a lot of merchants moving between TL 7-9 worlds if
there is no way to keep them from being stranded due to starship
maintenance needs.

  Support for interstellar trade starts at TL10; without the
traffic you're just not going to get the same Classic background
flavor of 'hide in the crowd'; 'just another ripple in the current.'
It's up to your character to rise above the din of mediocrity.
TNE is a different flavor of background:  any merchant trade at the
frontier is high risk, automatically a standout in the quiet of
infrequent visits.


>... and they're going
>to WANT to pick up interstellar trade again with their neighbors,
>for all the same reasons they did before the collapse.

  Now it may move in that direction, but then we're talking about a
general TL rise - the table would be different.


  Okay, maybe it was a flame :-)

Keith Thoms
Lexington Park, Maryland



------------------------------

Bundle: 505
Archive-Message-Number: 6151
Date: 	Thu, 7 Oct 1993 22:47:06 -0400
From: "BORIS ZAIDFELD" <cs911408@ariel.cs.yorku.ca>
Subject: I Like TNE


Chris Bray Wrote:

>        Another point, I am overjoyed that TML is starting to get postings
>from people who are pro-TNE.  I was suffering in silence for a while as the
>system/setting/editing/etc was put down, and considered leaving the list.
>
>        As this doesn't seem to be the case I will continue reading, and
>soon posting some information.  If anyone wants some TL-11 and 12 variant
>traders, call me and I will put them to the list for your perusal.

I was in the same position, as you were..

Now, I was Reading this Mailing list for a couple of Months,
and say a lot of bad opinions about TNE and GDW..  It might
be right, and might be wrong..

Some info about myself..

I'm 17 years old High School Student, Attending Newtonbrook
S.S in Toronto, Canada..   I was interduced to Traveller in a
very strange way <smile>..  One day, went into my School's
library, and they held a Grabage Sale.. so I looked over it
and found this strange black box with the fallowing text on it:

        THIS IS FREE TRADER BEOWULF,
        CALLING ANYONE...
        MAYDAY, MAYDAY...WE ARE UNDER ATTACK...
        MAIN DRIVE IS GONE...
        TURRET NUMBER ONE NOT RESPONDING...
        MAYDAY...LOSING CABIN PRESSURE
        FAST... CALLING ANYONE... PLEASE HELP...
        THIS IS FREE TRADER BEOWULF...

                                MAYDAY...

 and that was my first glance at Classic Traveller, and I
bought that copy of CT for $2 (It is the Deluxe Edition CT)..
and I liked the system alot.. since most of the traveller
supp. are out of print, I had to wait until TNE is out..  So i
only know the CT and TNE history..  and I like the TNE
edition..  It gives us an unlimited option to role play, and
have an adventure.. - you want low tech level world.. you travel
to the Wilds.. you want good ol' Empirum.. you travel to the
Regency.. or want a small empire..-pocket empires setting..  I
hope that GDW will never stop producing ANY traveller Supp.

Chris, please post any TL-11 and 12 variant traders that you
have.  Thanks.

Well, i think this message is a bit too long for me.. better
stop now..

More to come :-)

To GDW:

                GOOD WORK... KEEP IT UP! there is a new
generation of Roleplayers, who want to Travel.. don't stop now!.

Regards,

        -Shalom Zaidfeld
        -TML Lurker...

------------------------------
Received: from nova.engrg.uwo.ca by ihb.compuserve.com (5.67/5.930129sam)
	id AA20023; Sun, 10 Oct 93 21:09:52 -0400
Message-Id: <9310110103.AA16068@engrg.uwo.ca>
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 93 21:00:04 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML biweekly: Msgs 6152-6157 V38#10
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun Oct 10 21:00:03 EDT 1993
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Precedence: bulk

TML biweekly	Sun Oct 10 21:00:03 EDT 1993	Volume 38 : Issue 10

Today's topics:

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 506  6153 08-Oct-1993 Derek Wildstar   Last Call for Brilliant Lances Errata!
 506  6154 08-Oct-1993 Does it matter?  IMPIRIUM DIES BY TECHNOLOGICAL STANDARD
 506  6155 08-Oct-1993 RJR96326@VAX1.U  Musings << Ah, so that is the differenc
 506  6156 10-Oct-1993 Pauli            Re: ??? << Derek Wildstar wrote:
 506  6157 09-Oct-1993 RJR96326@VAX1.U  Alternate History << It's a nice varian
 506  6152 08-Oct-1993 Derek Wildstar   Multiple Replies << PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pi

This is a passively moderated mailing list. All messages sent to the
submission address will be distributed. The biweekly digest is currently
distributed each Wednesday and Sunday at 9:00pm.

Submissions: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca -or- uunet!engrg.uwo.ca!traveller
Administrator: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (James Perkins)

The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Bundle: 506
Archive-Message-Number: 6153
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 93 17:44:11 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@quark.qrc.com>
Subject: Last Call for Brilliant Lances Errata!


I've volunteered to collect errata for Brilliant Lances.  I want to have the
material to Dave Nilsen soon enough for it to be used in Fire, Fusion & Steel.
This means I need to have it Real Soon Now (tm).

wildstar@quark.qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the New Era

------------------------------

Bundle: 506
Archive-Message-Number: 6154
From: Does it matter? <vender@plains.NoDak.edu>
Subject: IMPIRIUM DIES BY TECHNOLOGICAL STANDARDIZATION
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 93 20:52:25 CDT

As a variant Virus plot, how is this for a variant of how the Impirium dies
  by technological means---------------


While reading through the mailing list, an idea occurred.  Unless the
  virus is actually physically mobile, it should be able to produce
  non-standard technologies and devices which are not succeptable to it
  (such as non-Imperial standard transceivers).  However, the Imperium
  has this famous set of standard equipment and vehicle designs which
  have been used for years and spread through-out the universe.
First point:  In the Imperium, standardization would be important.
  Letting one computer network be compatible with another, or allowing
  all standard devices to exchange data easily would be beneficial.
  For obvious reasons, this technology would spread slightly beyond
  the area of the Imperium, and alien to Imperial adapters would
  undoubtedly be developed in these fringe areas so that the
  Imperial tech is usable by the other cultures.  Which brings us
  to the big point:
The Virus was designed to exploit a fundamental yet subtle design/
  security flaw of standardized imperial technology.  Being slightly
  incorrect in design, 'Internet Worm' syndrome occurred, with the
  time for communication increased to 6-8 days minimum.  One field of
  genetically hemogenous wheat vs. tailored predator.  Predator wins.
  End of technological society, and hello barbarism.
Oh, and BTW:  The Spinward Marches are isolated from the mainstream
  of Imperial culture/advances/stagnation in a big way.  Thus, they
  were less succeptable to the virus, and able to produce variant
  technologies fast enough to prevent major loss outside of the border
  areas.

- ----------------------
Results:
    Collapse of Impirium, with the effects lessening as the distance from
    Core increases (the standards relax, and are slightly out of date
    due to travel concerns).

    Don't ask me to explain how this is feasible.  I don't write standards
    for non-existant technology, let alone existing technology.

    NO INTELLIGENT PSUEDO-ALIVE HARDWARE VIRUS.

    Spinward Marches have a feasible reason to advance in tech
    (the standard less likely to apply to the above-average techs).

    Reasonable reason for aliens to be affected.

    Transponders are still forgeable.
- --Brad


------------------------------

Bundle: 506
Archive-Message-Number: 6155
Date:    Fri, 8 Oct 1993 22:05:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: RJR96326@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU
Subject: Musings

Ah, so that is the difference between Megatraveller and CT. Pity. I was
able to take on the background pretty easily; I thought it was great. As
for price, $20-$30 is about thge going rate for complete rules these
days. And you could always shave costs by dropping the Encyclopedia.
Oh well. I felt like I was a regular Traveller when I got Megatrav.

GURPS: I don't have Space, but I do hear tell they have spaceship
building rules in it. I suppose you could do it with Vehicles,  but
you'd have to keep real good track of the details. Vehicles are initially
measured in cubic FEET; volume is calculated from that. It's primarily
for personal vehicles, though examples extend up through luxury liners
and clipper ships.

T2K damage: Can't vouce for the higher tech stuff, but I totally agree that
damage in that system is too low. In twilight, the average PC can take
2.5 full-damage hits from an assault rifle and still be called 'slightly'
wounded. I haven't campaigned since the 2nd ed came out, so I don't have
any playtested fixes, but I'll post some as I come up with them.


J Roberson

------------------------------

Bundle: 506
Archive-Message-Number: 6156
Subject: Re: ???
Date: Sun, 10 Oct 93 10:33:12 +1000
From: Pauli <grue@cs.uq.oz.au>

Derek Wildstar wrote:

>S_DMOODY@pstcc.cc.tn.us writes (Vanya):
>> 1) Combat is very safe (avg damage from 9mm round-3.5pts, avd hits avg
>> character can take in chest (STR+CON)*3=(6+6)*3=36pts --> 10 rounds of 9mm):
>> the average party will run out of ammo before they are killed. (I calmly let
>> him shoot me in the gut while I return fire.)

>Quick-n-Dirty fixes: (Don't know what this does to "game balance" or anything
>else, but it definitely *WILL* make combat deadlier).  Double the damage value

The one me and a friend came up with Friday night was to simply roll d20's
instead of d6's for damage.  Guess the TNE proof readers missed this when
they went through the book :-)  A d12 or d15 could also be used instead of
the d20.  The problem the d12 is that TNE doesn't use a d12's for anything
else.  And the d15 doesn't exist (well, I've never seen one) but it is used
to making saving rolls against age effects!



        						Pauli

Paul Dale                       | grue@cs.uq.oz.au
Department of Computer Science  | +61 7 365 2445
University of Queensland        |
Australia, 4072                 | Did you know that there are 41 two letter
                                |     words containing the letter 'a'?


------------------------------

Bundle: 506
Archive-Message-Number: 6157
Date:    Sat, 9 Oct 1993 20:39:14 -0500 (CDT)
From: RJR96326@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU
Subject: Alternate History

It's a nice variant system, but I think given the vast scope of the Imperium,
the standard protocol would be quite as existant. Certainly, the Imperial
ships and systems would be closest to the standard, but individual worlds/
governments, no matter how close, would probably have their own standard,
and interpreter protocols would be developed from that.

The reason would be much the same for the disparity in Tech levels across
the Imperium. Imagine a TL8 world in Massilia Sector. Not nearly as far from
Cor as Spinward Marches. Let's assume this world has a united global
government and a single global computer network (which is a lot to assume).
Th Imperium comes by, and says, "we have this standard". Well, I doubt the
Imperium would make the standard completely compatible with lower tech
systems; it couldn't be done without sacrificing some details. And upgrading
an entire planet's computer network would costly and time-consuming.

I'm sure it's possible, but it's be a lot more complicated than you might think.

J Roberson

------------------------------

Bundle: 506
Archive-Message-Number: 6152
Date: Fri, 8 Oct 93 15:21:26 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@quark.qrc.com>
Subject: Multiple Replies

PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu (Phil Pugilese) writes:
> My major gripe is that there will be, in all likelihood, no
> more supplements, & probably no material at all, that will be
> usable by me. For me this is a *MAJOR* loss & one that I will
> be incapable of replacing.
>
> I think this reason alone is ample cause to bitch. The fact that
> bitching is about all I *can* do just makes it all the more ir-
> ritating.

The only other thing you can do is "vote with your wallet".  If you don't
expect to be able to use any T:TNE suppliments, Challenge articles, and whatnot
in your game, by all means *don't* buy T:TNE, Brilliant Lances, or any other
GDW Traveller products.  If there are enough people out there who agree with
you, then GDW *will* get the message, albeit the hard way.


Mark Urbin <urbin@interlan.interlan.com> writes:
> I was cleaning up my hard disk and found this gem from when I received the
> `skunk-works' mailing list.  It reminded me of the thread a month or so ago
> about using the fusion powered rockets as weapons.

"skunk-works" mailing list?!  *THAT* sounds interesting!

As far as "Project Pluto" is concerned, the message accurately describes
a missile known as "Project Pluton" and the subject of an article in
an old issue of Air&Space/Smithsonian (back issues are $3.50 from:
Air&Space/Smithsonian Back Issues, 370 L'Enfant Promenade SW, 10th floor,
Washington DC, 20024-2518).  That particular issue is still available, I
believe that it was April/May 1992, but I may be mistaken.  A picture of
the missile is on the cover.

> Nuclear ramjet efficiencies increase with temperature, so Pluto's ramjet
> was designed to operate at 2500 degrees Fahrenheit.

As I recall, the reactor was designed to operate within a few degrees (less
than 20) of its failure temperature.

> Project cancelled on July 1, 1964.  ICBMS were cheaper and faster.

One of the other problems cited in the project's cancellation was the
the difficulty of flight-testing the beast.  One proposal was to tether
the missile with a long cable to an island in the Pacific.  If the autopilot
or flight controls failed, the missile would circle the island until
it crashed, its fuel was exhausted (which could take days), or it was
destroyed.


bjm@ares.dsc.com (Brian Makens) writes:
> Previously, the Zho's could justify the dictatorship
> of the psionic by saying that ZHO society is
> significantly more progressive than the Imp's with
> it crude repression of psionic talent, and that
> psionic nobles having all the say, thought police
> and re-education are just some of the cost of the
> better society.

I don't think most Zhodani, even the nobles, think that way.  Remember that
Zhodani society is designed to produce members that believe that Zhodani
society is the best possible for Humans to live under.

While most Imperial citizens believe that the "Thought Police" are a form of
secret police who spy on everyone's thoughts, and that the "Re-Education
Centers" as sopisticated and effective brainwashing,  Zhodani don't see it
that way at all.  The average Zhodani Prole or Intendant (and many nobles as
well) see the "Thought Police" in a way analogous to the way most Americans
feel about Mike Flanagan, the cop who walks the local beat.  Except that
the Zhodani version are always there when (or actually, before) you need
them.  To most Zhodani citizens, the "Re-Education Centers" are more like
mental hospitals, except that the doctors can see what's going on in a
patient's mind, and fix it, just as easily as a physician can set a bone
using X-rays as a guide.  Any prole or intendant who more than slightly
disagrees with this world view is picked up by the "Thought Police" sooner
or later, and sent to a "Re-Education Center" until they really and truly
believe it.  Most Zhodani are products of their educational system, which
is very effective in instilling the beliefs and habits expected of proper
Zhodani.  With the few, unstable exceptions, the average Zhodani is as
unlikely to question their society as the average American is to go berzerk,
grab a gun, and start shooting people at random.  It happens; one in
several hundreds of millions each year.

Nobles, particularly those with strong psionic talents, are allowed more
freedom to dissent without being censured or re-educated; but even so, most
of them are products of the Zhodani educational system, which in almost all
cases instills these beliefs in childhood.  Nobles are probably more aware
of the cost of this system: Zhodani social institutions are relatively
rigid, and do have a tendancy to stifle the creativity to some degree.
Some nobles may go so far as to establish enclaves where un-Re-Educated
researchers can explore, investigate, and create without being Re-Educated
whenever they go too far off the deep end.  Of course, other nobles may
feel that this is being cruel to the people involved (who would certainly
be unhappy about being kept in a padded cell, no matter how well
furnished).  As a matter of fact, this whole subject might be best
explored in an adventure setting ...

> Now Deneb has a society with open psionic members,
> and the proles there just don't seemed to get shoved
> the Regency around the same as back on Zhodane.

Zhodani citizens are likeley to (still) look upon citizens of the Regency
with some combination of fear, pity, and distrust.  After all, those poor
people still have to deal with the Regency court system, which is at worst
a tool of opression, and at best relies on the memory and judgement of the
participants.  Compare to the Zhodani system, where a noble can examine
the accused psionically and determine guilt or innocence directly.  And
while the various police and security forces of the Regency may try their
best, they are still not as good at preventing crime before it happens as
the Zhodani "Thought Police" - most Regency criminal investigations start
*after* the crime has been committed; a small consolation if you happen
to be the victim.

The Zhodani consulate is still the only place in which houses, starships, and
personal valuables can be left unlocked and unguarded without fear of
theft or vandalism.  And most Zhodani probably still fear the dishonesty
and violence of Regency society.

> This is assuming of course that Norris didn't decide that
> the Tlacaverde(sp?..its been awhile, what can I
> say my zhodani is rusty)thought police is a neat idea,
> and got some of his own. But that would mean the
> Spinward marches, ain't the old Spinward
> Marches we know and love.

There is some evidence that Norris in particular, and Imperial Naval
Intelligence in general, has always had psionic special operatives.  This
goes well back into Classic Traveller; check out the relevant entries
in the Classic Traveller library data suppliments.  If they exist, they
will probably be very, very secret, even into the "present" of the New Era.

> See GDW, I can have a positive discussion of
> the TNE universe, without foaming at the mouth.
> Now pleeze untie this strait jacket..
> Now give me back my butcher knife......<grin>
> TNE author-> Strength 0 Endurance 0...
> Bad Boy..Bad Boy..Quick ...Sedate Him Nurse

No, no, no.  Straightjackets aren't the way to go.  I'll just
turn you over to Daviv Nilsenptrl of the Thought Police, and
he can ship you off to a Re-Education Center to be kindly
and patiently Re-Educated until your thoughts fall within the
accepted norms.  You will no longer be troubled with non-conformist,
illegal thought patterms... ;-)


RJR96326@VAX1.UTULSA.EDU (J. Robertson) writes:
> What is everyone's problem with Megatraveller? I never actually ran a campaign,
> It was the first serious role-playing
> game where I could keep all my character's vital stats on an indez card. The
> only difficulty I encountered was space combat/encounters,

I assume that you never experienced Classic Traveller (either in the form of the
little black books, or The Traveller Book).  Many of the features you (and most
others) liked were in Classic Traveller as well.  The thing you complained of
(difficulty in resolving space encounters) worked rather well, if a little
simplistically, in Classic Traveller.

MegaTraveller did several things right.  The task system was an excellent
extension to Classic Traveller, and finally all of the character generation was
put into one book.

I had one major gripe with MegaTraveller: Errors.  Far too many of them.  There
were also a number of minor problems: MegaTraveller was expensive, and it was
organized so that game rules and background were spread out through the three
books, so that you *had* to get all three (at a rather expensive price) to
have a playable game.  The design sequences were complex, and riddled with
errors (designing a starship took an enjoyable less than fifteen minutes with
pencil and paper and Classic Traveller's Book 2 or Book 5; MegaTraveller took
several hours and required a calculator or computer spreadsheet).  One of
MegaTraveller's biggest problems was one of attracting new players: in my
experience, MegaTraveller was hard for new players to understand and "get into".
Not because of the extensive background information, but due to the way it
was presented.  MegaTraveller was written by people who were intimately
familliar with *ALL* of it, and many parts of the result assumed that the
reader was similarly knowledgable.  In other words, it made sense to Traveller
players and baffled outsiders.  Play testing and/or soliciting opinions on
MegaTraveller from people who weren't previously familliar with Traveller
would have caught and fixed this problem.

> BTW, for vehicle design of ANY type: GURPS Vehicles. Any tech level, magical
> engines or capabilities. . . the examples cover everything from chariots to
> cars to Jets to Vectored Trust vehicles. . .no starships, though. . .But you
> can build them.

Aren't starships and spaceships covered in GURPS Space?

For weapon design, of ANY type: Greg Porter's _Guns, Guns, Guns_ 3rd Edition
(3G3 to it's friends).  3G3 has conversion to Twilight: 2000 (2nd Ed) in the
back of the book (this will, of course, convert to Traveller: The New Era as
well, because it uses the T2k2 system).  Conversion to MegaTraveller and other
system are covered, as well.  Greg has done his homework, and has had two
previous editions to work the bugs out of the rules.  3G3 works *very* well,
and is relatively easy to use and understand.  3G3 will be one of my standards
for comparison to FF&S when it finally comes out.


James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us> writes:
> What sort of settings are you using?  What is the feel of your
> campaign?  The TNE setting includes everything the Third Imperium
> did except for "decadent imperial nobility" and "all-out war".

My last campaign was set in the Spinward Marches, and involved a noble
son who enlisted in the Scout Service against his father's wishes and
his cousin from the "wrong side of the tracks".  This campaign, amount
other things, featured characters that were absolutely unwilling to
break (or even bend) any Imperial law, and managed to never break any
local laws either.  This campaign featured a lot of role-playing and
very little combat at all.

In other campaigns, I have had a player character who refused to carry
a firearm.  I have had charecters that, during the entire campaign, haven't
used deadly force against anybody.  I have also had campaigns that
involved a mercenary unit, and routinely featured some sort of combat.
Most campaigns have fallen somewhere inbetween these two extremes.

This isn't to say that my campaigns aren't interesting or exciting, but
I choose to add excitement to the adventure in many different ways.  This
isn't really a good time to go into the basics of plotting, but suffice
it to say that there are many ways of adding suspense, conflict, and
excitement into an adventure plotline without resorting to armed violence.

I feel that combat is empahsized in too many role-playing game scenarios.
Combat is easy to write in, and it provides a garanteed "cheap thrill".
But think back; many of your most memorable moments in an RPG, or for
that matter, in a movie or television show, aren't the combats.  As
human beings, it is the interaction of people that holds our interest.

So, make it a people story.  Watch good television or movies, and see
those writers use their tricks: because this is a science-fiction game
we're talking about, Star Trek: The Next Generation and Deep Space Nine
are always good sources of insparation.  But also old dramatic series
like Hill Street Blues and St. Elsewhere work as well.  While you're
enjoying your favorite show, also think about how it was plotted: what
is the writer up to, what makes this a good (or bad) show.

>  Continue to gripe if you must, but at least gripe in a specific
> fashion.  If you see a regrettable gap in the coverage, mention it
> to the right people.  There are enough writers within shouting distance
> of this list that SOMEONE may get inspired to fill the gap, even if
> you cannot.

Material presented in Challenge seems to me to have limited play value.
Most of the published material are short adventures, and they typically
depend on definite and specific "starting conditions" that makes them
hard to integrate into a non-official campaign.

Material that I have found useful in _The Journal_ includes non-adventure
pieces on role-playing and plotting in general, and relatively independent
adventure ideas that can be placed in many campaigns.

Some of the best sources of these "adventure ideas" were the old Casual
Encounter and Amber Zone columns.  The best of these (including "Finger"
and "Geria Transfer") are relatively world and background independent, and
can be dropped into an ongoing campaign to side track the PCs for a while.


james vassilakos <jimv@ucrengr.ucr.edu> writes:
> Is this stuff available on sunbane in a semi-useable format?
> Yes... you guessed it... you've just been targeted for assimilation,
> so don't even think about resisting. :-)

Resistance is USELESS!

Everything we've done is available in raw form (meaning that you will
have to sift through the message archives to extract the stuff) from
the archive site at ocf.berkeley.edu, in the pub/Traveller/TNE-pocket
directory.  We are working on getting the draft materials together in
one place right now, it will probably take a while.


tom@csvax1.ucc.ie writes:
> High-tech weaponry has to be more effective than low tech, if only to justify
> the (almost invariably) massive cost increases. I already have variant stats
> worked out, but this produces the problem of diverging from the official rules,
> which makes new GDW products less useful, as others have already commented on.

Actually variant weapons stats, or even variant combat rules, isn't so much
of a problem.  As long as your variant system has a comprehensive set of
weapons and handles all of the situations that the "standard" does, what's
the problem?

Back in the days of Classic Traveller, there were lots of variant combat
systems running around.  Some people used the original, while lots of folks
used Snapshot, Azhanti High Lightning, or Striker, and some people did
unusual variants on those.

If anybody does work out variant weapons stats, I certainly hope that
they will post them here for the rest of us to use.


Matthew Goldman <goldman@orac.cray.com> writes:
> Suggestion with 1/2 :-):  Offer a complete set of Classic Traveller
> books on CD rom.  Take prepayments with the condition that the CD will
> be printed if and only if a certain number of orders come in.  A week
> or two with an OCR scanner an you'd be all set.  You could even break
> it down into a number of CDs, Combined Rules, Adventures, Supplements,
> Journals, etc.

The company I work for publishes (on an approximately annual basis) a
CD-ROM containing a rather specialized database and associated retrieval
software.  For the last few years, we have used Sony as our supplier;
we provide the data (some 200Mb) to Sony in DOS format, and they convert
it to ISO standard format, and press the disks.  The cost for 150 disks
is between $1200 and $1700, depending on what sort of deal we can swing
with them.  Most of this cost is a fixed set-up charge and a fixed data
conversion charge (usually $500 to convert to ISO format), the per-disk
costs are low, about $1 to $2 per disk.  This is for disks individually
shrink-wrapped in jewel boxes, and two-color artwork printed on the
disk, but no liner in the box (just shows the disk through the clear top).

Everything published to date for Traveller (let's say *EVERYTHING*: all
of Classic Traveller, all the adventures, all the suppliments, every
issue of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid society, all of MegaTraveller
and everything published for it.  Furthermore, let's be optimistic
and assume that you can negotiate for all of the third-party stuff:
all of the Paranoia Press, FASA, and DGP stuff for Traveller and
MegaTraveller, and all the rest).  It would probably *ALL* fit on a
single CD-ROM.  It would be a large piece of work organizing it, but
with the help of a scanner and some dedication, it is a doable
task.

Let's assume the following arrangement: Let's say you convince GDW to
allow this for (say) $2 per disk plus 30% of the net (after everything
has been paid for) profit, if any.  If you wanted to include any of the
DGP stuff (and it might be nice), maybe they'd go for $1 plus 10%, and
ditto for FASA, and maybe up to $1 per disk plus none of the net profits
for other Traveller liscencees (like Paranoia Press, Gamelords, etc, if
the copyright holders can be located).  Give yourself $0 per disk plus
50% of the net profit, which makes a total of $5 per disk in royalties.
OK, then let's set the "list price" of the disk at $50 per disk; then
let's allow $5 per disk for overhead (hopefully less than this), leaving
$40 per disk.  Furthermore, let's give the pre-orders a 10% ($5) price
break.

Therefore you would need about 45 pre-orders in hand to break even.  If
you get more pre-orders than that, you might want to order a number of
disks that totals about three times the number of pre-orders recieved.
Presumably you would wait until you had at least 45 pre-orders before you
went and had the disks pressed.  In such a case, you would be out
your time (but not your money), while GDW would get $90, if all you
sold were those 45 pre-orders.

If you eventually sold all 150 of the disks, let's assume 100 of them
direct (50 at $45 and 50 at $50 each), and the other 50 through stores
(the stores pay you $25 each, and sell them for the $50 list price), the
final results would be: $6000 gross.  Pressing cost $1500.  Royalties
cost $750, and overhead $750, leaving a net profit of $3000.  You would
make a total of $1500.  GDW would get ($300+$900) $1200, DGP and FASA
would get $450 each, while the others would get some fraction of $150.

Worth it?  You decide.


"Anthony K. Baggaley" <MCDAPAB@cms.manchester-computing-centre.ac.uk> writes:
>       Ah, we can but dream (at the moment). I love the idea, but wouldn't the
>   whole of GDWs, FASAs and DGPs published material fit on one CD ROM, especial-
>   ly if illos were cut back? You could probably fit HIWGs stuff as well, I've
>   got a lot of it and it doesn't take up much room on the hard drive (since
>   it's all ASCII).

I'm certain that all of the text for all of the published Traveller material
to date would easily fit on a single CD-ROM.  The only question is how many
maps, illustrations, and other graphic materials could you include.


Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@cbda8.apgea.army.mil> writes:
> Sigh.  Too true.  So, what _is_ selling well these days?  Also, is there
> any chance that you could recap the history behind the Classic->MT shift
> sometime?  I'm sure a lot of us would be interested.

Add my name to the "interested" list.

> Just as a matter of idle curiosity, what sort of terms would you license use
> of the Traveller tm under now?  Suppose, for purposes of this example, that
> I wanted to publish a collection of mini-adventures in a close approximation
> of the old format (64 page, digest sized, etc.)...

Inquiring minds want to know.  Does GDW have any "standard" for liscencing
(come to think of it, does GDW have any current liscencees?), and are there
any plans afoot to bring liscencees aboard?

One of the things that was good about Classic Traveller's heyday was the
number and variety of things that were available.  The ones I remember from
early on where Paranoia Press and FASA.  Having a variety of different
companies publishing made for nice variety.  Is there anybody besides
Scott Kellogg and myself who remember the FASA "Sky Raiders" series with
great fondness?


S_DMOODY@pstcc.cc.tn.us writes (Vanya):
> 1) Combat is very safe (avg damage from 9mm round-3.5pts, avd hits avg
> character can take in chest (STR+CON)*3=(6+6)*3=36pts --> 10 rounds of 9mm):
> the average party will run out of ammo before they are killed.  (I calmly let
> him shoot me in the gut while I return fire.)

I defer to someone who is more familiar with the T2k2 system to figure
this part out.  I *assume* Vanya's calculations are correct, but he could
be missing a factor somewhere.  It does jive with what little I know about
the T2k2 system: it simulates combat as shown on movies and television
rather than real life.  Lots of gunplay to add "excitement" to the
adventure, but not too deadly or we'll kill the PCs off.

Quick-n-Dirty fixes: (Don't know what this does to "game balance" or anything
else, but it definitely *WILL* make combat deadlier).  Double the damage value
of all slug throwers TL-8 and below.  Triple the damage value of slug
throwers TL-9 and above.  Change the penetration values of laser weapons to
1/4 (one quarter), leave damage alone.  In personal combat consider high-energy
(plasma and fusion) weapon hits agains personnel who are not in "hard" armor
(hard armor means Combat Armor or Battle Dress) as 100% fatal; resolve high
energy fire agains Combat Armor or Battle Dress normally).  This *hasn't*
been tested, but give it a try and let us know what you find out.

> [about adventure lines precluded]

If you like the T:TNE rules set, go ahead and play in the "Classic" Imperium;
don't worry, the GDW Thought Police won't come and take your campaign away
from you.

> Indeed.  The Imperium is no more.  Our beloves Third Imperium is gone, replaced
> with many small, bickering factions.  There was no reaseon to trash the sectors
> we know and love.  The rebellion was bad enough, but it worked in a gaming
> sence.  The Virus just doesnt cut it.

Hey, whoa.  If you (like I do) have a lot of the old background data, go ahead
and use it.  In my opinion, it *IS* one of Traveller's greatest resources.

Something which I would have preferred to see in T:TNE was a separation between
the rules set and the "Official" background universe.  This was the case in
the original Traveller game: about all the background it contained was the
"Travellers' Aid Society", and the assumption that game play would take place
in an established interstellar society.

Although earlier products (in particular, the Traveller Book) led the way in
including background material and "starter" adventures in the rules, it was
MegaTraveller that really broke away from the original concept.

I was hoping that T:TNE would start back in the other direction, but alas
this is not so.  I'm afraid that this might make it a little more difficult
to put out "universe" books, that detail alternate campaign universes
using the T:TNE rules.  One such universe might be Classic Traveller, in
which the Rebellion and Virus never happened.  Others might be 2300AD, and
even completely new (or liscenced from some S-F writer) ones.

> Oh, PS: To those who say 'Dont complain unless you got a fix', I got a fix.  I
> can complain because I love Traveller and hate to see it go down the fresher,
> even if the guys tinkling on it is GDW. (Party Line, whats that?)

I think I've said that in the past, as have others.  You have a fix; you do
indeed get to say what you think is wrong, and how your solution addresses
those problems.  It's the details that are hard sledding; but keep us posted,
perhaps members of the TML can help out or just lend an ear.


wildstar@quark.qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In the Far Future

------------------------------

End of TML Biweekly
******************
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 507  6159 11-Oct-1993 Richard Johnson  Letting the CAT out ... << Well, it loo
 507  6160 11-Oct-1993 David Paxson     Traveller on CD-ROM << Well, if any sor
 507  6161 12-Oct-1993 PIERRE-LOUIS CO  Darrian Psionics << A question on one o
 507  6163 12-Oct-1993 Goldman of Chao  re: real world gun battles << > Bundle:
 507  6164 12-Oct-1993 "J.A.F.O."       Traveller News Service << I am planning
 507  6165 12-Oct-1993 Goldman of Chao  Some interesting stuff... << The follow
 507  6166 12-Oct-1993 James T Perkins  Dying Young << Not a recent movie.  For
 507  6167 12-Oct-1993 Will Hartung -   Re: Franks article... << Well, I found
 507  6158 11-Oct-1993 l.wiseman1@geni  Re Small Arms Lethality <<   Lethality
 507  6162 13-Oct-1993 Timothy Little   Re: Small arms lethality << >   Lethali

------------------------------

Bundle: 507
Archive-Message-Number: 6159
From: richard@agora.rain.com (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Letting the CAT out ...
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1993 05:43:20 -0700 (PDT)

Well, it looks like I'd better quit loafing and get back to diddling
with CAT again.  I believe I have four requests in my in basket and Dan
has connected three.


Requests:
Shalom Zaidfeld   <cs911408@gonzalo.ariel.yorku.ca>
Andrew Akins      <arakins@iastate.edu>
Glenn Myers       <gem188@swanson.com>
David Paxson      <dpaxson@unix.cc.emory.edu>


Acknowledgements
To: arakins@iastate.edu
To: gmyers@swanson.com
To: dpaxson@unix.cc.emory.edu


Interesting that Glenn Myers return address seems different from where
Dan replied.  Maybe I'm still asleep this moring.

====
May apologies for being so reticent of late.  My SO has restarted
college, which has sucked a BIG chunk of what little free time I had.
Guess I'll just have to find a new paradigm.  (Maybe we could develop a
virus (to take a page from GDW) that shuts down work for a month or so
each year...)

Changes around here:
Now a real, working PC clone (as opposed to the limited clone that fits
on the card inside the Amiga).  It's a '486 with big disk, and ROM and
all kinds of goodies.  Have a uSoft C++ to install on it, but it's still
in the (big) box.  Have a disk that reads and writes Mac disks, so I can
now more acceptably use the Mac emulator in the Ami.

I think I'm running out of excuses.  Now I'm actualy gonna have to write
something.


Welcome to everyone (not just newcomers--it's been a while).
- --
Richard Johnson

------------------------------

Bundle: 507
Archive-Message-Number: 6160
From: dpaxson@unix.cc.emory.edu (David Paxson)
Subject: Traveller on CD-ROM
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 17:14:06 EDT

Well, if any sort of effort is put forth towards this goal, I would
be willing to help in putting information into the computer.  I would
also be interested in purchasing the end-result.  Assuming we can
get past the legal issues.

To me it would be worth $50 to be able to have all of the Traveller
information.  Especially that info that is out of print.  It would
do wonders for my Traveller collection at filling holes...  ;-)

And depending on how much space is left on the disk, maybe we could
toss the TML on there, as well.  ;-)

- - David Paxson
"Traveller on CD-ROM Society" ;-)

------------------------------

Bundle: 507
Archive-Message-Number: 6161
From: PIERRE-LOUIS CONSTANTIN <consp00@dmi.usherb.ca>
Subject: Darrian Psionics
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1993 10:08:19 -0400 (EDT)

A question on one of the less popular of aliens... :)

    Anyone has data on Darrian psionics?  The GDW alien book 8
doesn't mention them at all except for the skill 'Talent' in the
Cascade Skills list.  It seems to me that Darrians are likely to have
some special abilities or advanced psionic institutes.  Any info in
the original article in JTAS#14?

    Any help would be appreciated. :)  If no-one can come up with
anything, I'll post what I came up with.

PLC

- --
Pierre-Louis Constantin  -- consp00@dmi.usherb.ca
"While we liked developing Windows applications, we never inhaled."

------------------------------

Bundle: 507
Archive-Message-Number: 6163
Subject: re: real world gun battles
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 10:45:35 CDT
From: goldman@orac.cray.com (Goldman of Chaos -- postmaster CRI-US)
Reply-To: goldman@orac.cray.com

> Bundle: 507
> Archive-Message-Number: 6158
> From: l.wiseman1@genie.geis.com
> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 04:53:00 BST
> Subject: Re Small Arms Lethality
>
>   Lethality in Roleplaying Small Arms Systems
>
>   By Frank A Chadwick
>
>   I know of few issues in roleplaying systems that cause as
>   much passionate argument as do small arms fire, both hit
>   probability and damage.

>   It's always been my feeling that these arguments produce a
>   great deal more heat than light, and are usually based on
>   personal prejudice and repeated viewings of Hollywood war
>   movies, rather than a serious examination of facts.

True; however, many folks aren't trying for realism, they are trying
for the Indiana Jones adventures.  A of the cuff remark without
any proof other than what I see at gaming groups and gaming
conventions is that most gamers don't have any real combat
experience.  They don't realize that a target range is not
the same as a firefight.

>                                                        So in
>   the spirit of casting real light on the subject, I'd like to
>   present a series of actual close range combat shootings, all
>   drawn from the experiences of the San Diego Police
>   Department's experimental Border Crime Task Force during the
>   eighteen months of its existence.

Thanks for posting the info, there is a great deal of campaign useable
stuff in there.  Why are the Mexican border police stepping across
the line, and various other questions.

Matt

- --
Matthew Goldman  E-mail: goldman@orac.cray.com Work: (612) 683-3061

My day today? Nothing major, just Xenon base gone, Scorpio gone,
Tarrant dead, Tarrant alive and then I found out Blake sold us out.

------------------------------

Bundle: 507
Archive-Message-Number: 6164
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 17:26 GMT
From: "J.A.F.O." <BSP054@BANGOR.AC.UK>
Subject: Traveller News Service

I am planning on running a game set around the 5th fronteir war and was
wondering where I might be able to get hold of a complete run of the TNS?
I can't afford to buy all the old JTAS/challenges -sigh-
Is there some way around this?
	Ta



------------------------------

Bundle: 507
Archive-Message-Number: 6165
Subject: Some interesting stuff...
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 13:53:25 CDT
From: goldman@orac.cray.com (Goldman of Chaos -- postmaster CRI-US)
Reply-To: goldman@orac.cray.com

The following groups are pulled from the CIA world fact book 1992.

As long as we are throwing around real world stuff, I thought
thas some of you might be interested in some real world
organizations.  The Hexagonal Group brought to mind the
Octagon Society...

Matt

**********

Four Dragons

Note - the four small Asian less developed countries (LDCs) that
have experienced unusually rapid economic growth; also known as
the Four Tigers; this group includes Hong Kong, South Korea,
Singapore, Taiwan

**********

Four Tigers

Note - another term for the Four Dragons; see Four Dragons

**********

Franc Zone (FZ)

established - NA

aim - monetary union among countries whose currencies are linked
to the French franc

members - (15) Benin, Burkina, Cameroon, Central African
Republic, Chad, Comoros, Congo, Equatorial Guinea, France, Gabon,
Ivory Coast, Mali, Niger, Senegal, Togo; note - France includes
metropolitan France, the four overseas departments of France
(French Guiana, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Reunion), the two
territorial collectivities of France (Mayotte, Saint Pierre and
Miquelon), and the three overseas territories of France (French
Polynesia, New Caledonia, Wallis and Futuna)

**********

Hexagonal Group

Note - HG - the old Pentagonal Group plus one)

established - July 1991

aim - to form an economic and political cooperation group for the
region between the Adriatic and the Baltic Seas

members - (6) Austria, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Italy, Poland,
Yugoslavia

**********

- --
Matthew Goldman  E-mail: goldman@orac.cray.com Work: (612) 683-3061

My day today? Nothing major, just Xenon base gone, Scorpio gone,
Tarrant dead, Tarrant alive and then I found out Blake sold us out.

------------------------------

Bundle: 507
Archive-Message-Number: 6166
Subject: Dying Young
Reply-To: jamesp@sp-eug.com (James T Perkins)
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 14:59:41 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@sp-eug.com>

Not a recent movie.  Forwarded from metlay:

HUMAN: "Live fast, die young, leave a nice corpse."
ASLAN: "Live with honor, die with honor, what you leave behind matters not."
VARGR: "Live big, die big, leave a crater."

[The above should be forwarded to the TML....:) ]

------------------------------

Bundle: 507
Archive-Message-Number: 6167
Subject: Re: Franks article...
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 93 18:22:18 PDT
From: Will Hartung - Master Rallyeist <villy@uunet.uu.net>
Reply-To: me@zipbang.socal.com


Well, I found Franks article pretty fascinating, however I do have
some comments.

First, it can't be true -- I haven't seen it on COPS 8-)...

From the sounds of these encounters, it sounds like John Woo has
the most accurate portrayal of gunfighting in Cinema today.

I don't think any game system I've seen can represent the speed at
which (I imagine) some of these encounters happened. Games break
these situations down into frames of animation. One step at a
time. Before/during an encounter, people are moving, things are
happening, there's a flow, a tension, speed, anxiety then *BANG*!
Combat mode. The flow stops, dice are rolled, and 13.6 units of
blood flow from 2.7 PCs and NPCs.

I think that the article shows the value of shock and being
incapacitated versus killed. It also shows the value of having a
hospital nearby.

Finally, I think that it brings home something that, despite the
engineering/calculus or Real World data, we are discussing the
"Lethality" of a game. I don't think anyone is going to go home and
try to duplicate the articles results with their favorite game system.
They're not going to come back and say "Lopez has Initiative-X and
Small Arms-Y" etc. And I would hope that nobody is going to run home
and shoot themselves through the neck just find out how bad it is, or
how survivable.

Combat is a plot device that is used to direct the flow and path of the
party. Most GMs know the result of the encounter before characters
even arrive. There are very few scenarios where the GM has an "If the
characters survive" paragraph. Its pretty much implied that the
characters are going to survive. Deterred from their chosen path, but
alive. Otherwise, game over, clean up the chips and beer, and go home.
Most GMs have rolled the damage dice against a character, looked at
all of the 6's, and decide "Umm..3 points George, hmm..you seem
to black out".

We want things realistic so that we can have a point of reference. We
want to stretch our reality in one way, but it still needs to be
anchored some place else. If the guns and bullets work as we expect,
then the absurdity of our situation is OK.

"Allright, you guys cut through the electric fence, sneaked past the
dogs, knocked out the guard, and have reached the computer center. The
computer doesn't respond to CTRL-ALT-DEL." says the GM, making
eye-contact with his group of pot-bellied, pale players while they
suck back another Coke and a handful of chips. Fred is scratching
something.

"Hey, that's not realistic! I've seen those computers at Video Blips,
and that always works!" screams the "Intrusion Specialist".

So, regardless of what the article presents, regardless of what the
book says, regardless of what Really Happens (tm). The result of any
action is pretty much determined by the GM. If the GM and players like
a game with lots of spent cartridges and dead NPCs, then thats what
will happen. If the GM feels that guns should be very dangerous, armor
fragile, etc., then .22 revolvers end up doing 22D6 damage.

Lethality is a plot device, at least for most of us. The GM knows
how effective something is, its their game, and their adventure. We
play it, not live it. That's a Good Thing.

Will
(me@zipbang.socal.com)

------------------------------

Bundle: 507
Archive-Message-Number: 6158
From: l.wiseman1@genie.geis.com
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 04:53:00 BST
Subject: Re Small Arms Lethality

  Lethality in Roleplaying Small Arms Systems

  By Frank A Chadwick

  I know of few issues in roleplaying systems that cause as
  much passionate argument as do small arms fire, both hit
  probability and damage. Over the years I have heard repeated
  complaints about the "low lethality" of what was originally
  the Twilight: 2000 combat system, and which is now GDW's
  core roleplaying system. I don't know how many times I've
  heard actually _angry_ gamers tell me that they can hit a
  man-size target 100% of the time at X range, and our rules
  are BS because they have less than a 50% chance, or even
  worse. Or that this wound or that wound might or might not
  knock someone down in the game, but in "real life" would
  invariably prove fatal.

  It's always been my feeling that these arguments produce a
  great deal more heat than light, and are usually based on
  personal prejudice and repeated viewings of Hollywood war
  movies, rather than a serious examination of facts.  So in
  the spirit of casting real light on the subject, I'd like to
  present a series of actual close range combat shootings, all
  drawn from the experiences of the San Diego Police
  Department's experimental Border Crime Task Force during the
  eighteen months of its existence.

  A rugged area of undeveloped canyons and gullies along the
  US-Mexican border between San Diego and Tijuana was the site
  of numerous nocturnal border crosing by illegal aliens. That
  was the responsibility of the US Imigration Service. But the
  people coming north illegally  were being systematically
  brutalized by gangs of crooks - robbery, assault, and rape
  were commonplace, and as the violence escallated murder
  would be as well. That was the responsibility of the San
  Diego Police Department, since this area of rugged ravines,
  even though a barren wilderness, was inside the city limits.

  The Task Force members, fewer than a dozen undercover
  policemen disguised as illegal immigrants, went into the
  canyons at night and waited to be attacked. When it
  happened, they made arrests, or tried to. Given the
  environment, it was only a matter of time before deadly
  force was used by both sides in what became a running
  guerrilla war.

  The following represents most of the actual exchanges of
  gunfire that took place during the unit's existence. I will
  present as much information as I know, and make a few
  observations at the end, but leave gamers to draw their own
  conclusions as to hit probabilities and weapon lethality.
  1. February 1, 1976

  Sergeant Lopez (the Task Force supervisor) and Officer
  Castillo encountered two suspects near the Mexican border
  deep in the canyons. One was a well-dressed man armed with a
  .45-caliber automatic, the other dressed in rags and apparently
  unarmed. At close range (a few yards) the gunman covered
  the two officers with his automatic, first pointing it at
  Sergeant Lopez. Both officers squated on the ground and
  continued their pretense that they were illegal immigrants.
  When the gunman shifted the pistol to his left hand and
  turned it on Officer Chacon, Sergeant Lopez quickly reached
  into his clothing, drew the .38 special snub nosed revolver
  from his shoulder holster, and fired all five rounds at the
  gunman in rapid succession. (The weapon was apparently a
  Smith & Wesson Model 36 Chief's Special, which holds only
  five rounds in the cylinder.) Several rounds hit the gunman
  and jerked him around. As he twisted to the side, Officer
  Castillo drew his own pistol and shot the gunman once as he
  fell to the ground.
  The second suspect began to flee, Officer Castillo fired
  again, and that suspect also fell to the ground. Castillo
  ran to the prone suspect and, overcome by an adrenaline
  reaction, lost control and began beating him.

  The gunman, it turned out, was Officer Luis Tamez of the
  Mexican Immigration service and the ragged suspect was
  reported to be his informant. The exact reason why Officer
  Tamez was on the US side of the border and what his
  intentions were remained a source of controversy.

  Of the six shots fired at point blank range at Tamez (five
  by Lopez and one by Castillo), five hit. Two bullets struck
  him in the groin, one hit him in the right chest directly
  over the nipple, one hit his arm, and one hit his buttock as
  he spun around and fell to the ground. Of all of these, the
  chest wound was the most visible, as Tamez's shirt
  immediately became soaked with blood, but it did the least
  damage, as the .38 Special bullet bounced off Tamez's
  ribcage and did only superficial damage. The two groin hits
  were the the most dangerous, and all of the participants
  were convinced that Tamez was dying. Since cross-winds were
  too strong to allow a helicopter to land in the canyons, the
  two officers tried to manhandle Tamez up the steep wall, but
  Tamez found it so painful to be dragged over the rocks that
  he demanded to be laid down and then got up, pushed the
  officers away, and climbed out of the canyon under his own
  power.

  Both of the wounded men recovered completely.
   2. March 23, 1976

  Officers Chacon, Vasquez, Salgado, Castillo, and Gil were
  together in Deadman's Canyon sitting on the banks of a
  shallow dry streambed when they were approached by two
  suspects. Officer Chacon was on one side of the ditch and
  the others were on the opposite side, their legs dangling
  over the edge. The suspects approached from Chacon's side.
  One suspect, later identified as Morales, was armed with a
  pistol and other, identified as Madrid, was armed with a
  long-bladed knife.

  All of the police officers were armed; most of them had
  two revolvers. Castillo had three revolvers and a shotgun.
  Several of them also wore bullet-proof vests. Of the five
  officers, two were combat veterans - both Salgado and Gil
  were Marine NCO's with extensive combat experience in
  Vietnam and both were former drill instructors. Gil had
  also been all-Marine Judo Champion.

  Morales covered the officers with his pistol and ordered
  them to put their hands up. Madrid jumped to the other side
  of the streambed to search them for valuables, still
  believing them to be illegal immigrants. All of the officers
  and suspects were now thoroughly mingled and all were
  probably within three or four meters of each other.

  Officer Castillo, armed with a short pump shotgun under
  his coat, was probably the first to fire. He pointed the
  shotgun at Morales and fired, hitting him in the gun hand
  and blowing most of the fingers off, disarming him in the
  process. All of the other officers except for Gil drew their
  revolvers and began firing. Chacon and Vasquez both emptied
  their revolvers in rapid sucession. Gil (the former judo
  champ) dove at Morales just as he was hit by the shotgun
  blast, and Morales, riddled with bullets, fell on top of Gil
  in the bottom of the ditch.

  The second suspect ran into the night pursued by Chacon
  and Vasquez, still firing. After a brief chase the second
  suspect fell wounded.

  The first bandit lay on top of Gill, apparently dead. In
  addition to the shattered hand from Castillo's shotgun, he
  had received seven other bullet wounds at point blank range:
  one each to the right shoulder, left lower chest, left side
  of the back, upper spine, left elbow, and two over the right
  clavicle. Amazingly, he was still live.

  The second bandit was shot three times, once in each leg
  by pistol shots and once straight through the neck, from one
  side to the other, by a stray buckshot pellet.

  Two of the officers were wounded. Castillo, shortly after
  firing his shotgun, had reached out to grab the wounded
  suspect and had been shot straight through the wrist, and
  was almost immediately incapacitated by pain. Gill, as he
  dove for Morales, was shot in the hip. Both officers were
  inadvertently shot by officer Chacon, firing across the
  ditch from the other side.

  All four injured men survived and recovered.
   3. July 9, 1976

  Sergeant Lopez and officers Cervantes, Puente, and Camacho
  (in that order from south to north) were concealed in a
  drainage pipe at the south end of the E-2 canyon, less than
  a dozen meters north of the international border. Officer
  Chacon was concealed outside of the pipe to observe the
  approach of any suspects. All were armed with revolvers and
  Officer Camacho had  a pump-action shotgun as well.

  About an hour after dusk a suspect in a ski mask
  approached the south end of the pipe. The suspect, in a
  remarkable display of strength, seized Sergeant Lopez by the
  arm, pulled him bodily from the pipe, and dragged him down a
  slope into a ravine where there were three other suspects.

  At the bottom of the ravine Sergeant Lopez was surrounded
  by four suspects, all apparently armed and covering him. The
  suspect to his left held a rifle (although this later turned
  out to be a dummy). The suspect in front of him and another
  to his right covered him with pistols. The leader of the
  group, the man in the ski mask, (and later identified as
  "Lobo") held Lopez's shooting arm in a vice-like grip and
  held a knife in his free hand. While Lobo still held his
  shooting arm, Lopez managed to get his hand to his wasteband
  and draw his 5-shot Model-36 and quickly emptied it in a
  semicircle around him: one shot to the man holding the
  rifle, then one at the man in front of him, then one into
  Lobo, holding his arm, then the last two bullets at the man
  to his right. At this point the suspects scattered and began
  to flee, except for Lobo, struggling with Lopez.

  Officer Cervantes scrambled out of the south end of the
  pipe and fired one round at the fleeing suspects with his
  revolver while Officer Camacho crawled out of the north end
  of the pipe and fired twice with his shotgun, dropping one
  of the fleeing suspects (who later rose and continued to
  flee). Camacho then dropped his shotgun, drew his pistol,
  and fired five more shots at the fleeing suspects. Officer
  Cervantes pursued a suspect for several meters into Mexico,
  fired one more shot at him, and then returned. As he
  returned, one of the suspects fired first four pistol shots
  at the officers from out of the darkness and later fired a
  fifth. Officer Chacon shortly afterwards heard four other
  shots fired at them from a different direction.

  The officers fired a total of two shotgun shells and about
  a dozen pistol shots. Of these, apparently one shotgun shell
  and two pistol shots scored hits. Lopez's point-blank shot
  at the bandit leader had broken his thigh and lodged in his
  hip, incapacitating him. None of the other suspects were
  captured, although two were later seen wounded. (One was
  admited to a Mexican hospital with his leg badly lacerated
  by buckshot. He was arrested by Mexican police. The other
  burst into a party, his chest soaked with blood, then fled
  again. He was never apprehended, nor was the fourth
  suspect.)

  Of the nine rounds fired at the police, none hit.
   4. July 19, 1976

  Officers Salgado, Camacho, and Chacon were acting as
  decoys near the border when they were spotted by two
  officers of the Tijuana Municipal Police, officers Hernandez
  and Espindola, who considered their actions suspicious and
  investigated with revolvers drawn, using their flashlights.
  A second Task Force team, consisting of Sergeant Lopez and
  officers Puente,

  Vasquez, and Castillo, were nearby under cover and were soon
  also seen by Officer Hernandez, who considered their actions
  atypical of illegal border crossers and suspected that they
  were criminals. The two task force teams joined up by a
  gully as Hernandez climbed down to confront them. At his
  point Sergeant Lopez, believing the two Tijuana poliemen
  were trying to extort money from border crossers, jumped
  down from his side of the ravine to face Hernandez, held up
  his badge in his left hand and his revolver in his right,
  and yelled "Policia! Policia!"All of the Task Force members
  drew and pointed their guns as Officer Espindola screamed
  the unneccessary warning to Hernandez,"He's got a gun!"

  Hernandez, instead of firing, raised his pistol and struck
  Lopez in the chest with the barrel, knocking him down. Later
  everyone would have a different impression of who fired
  first. Hernandez got off five rounds before collapsing under
  a hail of San Diego Police fire, and his partner Espindolo
  emptied his pistol (aparently a ten-round automatic) as he
  scrambled back toward their squad car. The Task Force
  members all fired, and fired a total of one shotgun round
  and thirty-three pistol rounds. These broke down as follows:

  Fired At Hernandez: 14 pistol shots from Puente,
  Castillo, Camacho, Chacon, and Lopez.

  Fired At Espindolo: 19 pistol shots from Salgado,
  Castillo (his second pistol), Vasquez, Camacho, and Chacon
  (his second pistol).

  Fired At Both: One shotgun shell fromVasquez in the
  general direction of both officers (after which the shotgun
  jammed and Vasquez drew his pistol).

  Three officers were wounded in the incident.

  Espindolo was hit four times: once in the leg and then
  three more times in the back as he crawled back toward his
  squad car. He reached his squad car and drove away for help.
  Taken to a hopital, he recovered from his wounds and later
  returned to duty.

  Hernandez, the closer of the two, was hit twice, and
  ballistics tests showed that both bullets were fired by
  Officer Chacon. Amazingly, Lopez, lying at Hernandez' feet,
  had missed with all three shots he fired.  One of Chacon's
  bullets hit Hernandez in the abdomen and the other hit him
  in the arm. He attempted to crawl back across the border but
  was seized by the Task Force officers and arrested. He later
  recovered from his wounds and returned to duty.

  Chacon was hit once in the upper arm, recovered fully, and
  returned to duty.
  5. January 25, 1977

  Sergent Lopez, officers Puente, Castillo, Chacon, and
  Vasquez encountered a group of three suspects who pretended
  to be undercover police and tried to extort money from them.
  When Puente moved to cut of the retreat of the bandits south,
  a suspect jumped on him with a long knife and began struggling.
  Officer Vasquez jumped on the back of the suspect and, fearing
  that he was about to stab Puente, put his snub-nosed .38
  caliber Special against the back of the suspect's head and
  fired once. The pistol shot instantly killed the assailant
  and temporarily blinded Vasquez. Puente had not even seen
  the knife.

  At the same time one of the suspects lunged at Sergeant
  Lopez with a knife. Lopez fired once at the suspect at
  point-blank range, and then fired again as the suspect
  dashed by him. Lopez then emptied his pisol at the fleeing
  suspect and when that had no effect began to pursue him on
  foot. Eventually he overtook the suspect and overpowered
  him. After the struggle the suspect noticed, for the first
  time, that he had been wounded once in the elbow.

  The third suspect was facing Officer Chacon, who this
  night was armed with a shotgun. Chacon raised the shotgun
  and, at a range nearly close enough to touch the suspect
  with his hand, discharged the shotgun once directly into the
  center of the suspect's chest. The suspect stood for a
  moment looking at him, then turned around and walked calmly
  away into the darkness. Unsure whether he had somehow missed
  the target or the suspect was wearing some form of body
  armor, Chacon followed him cautiously and soon found him
  lying peacefully on the ground, dead of massive chest
  injuries. (San Diego Police Lieutenant Richard Snider would
  later describe the wound as, "...a hole in his chest you
  could throw a cat through.")
  Observations

  In the five incidents presented above, Task Force officers
  fired about ninety rounds, most of them at close range, and
  scored 29 hits, or 32%. Of even more interest are the eight
  shots fired while effectively in physical contact with the
  target (one shot by Lopez at the leader "Lobo" in incident
  three, 3 shots by Lopez at Hernandez in incident four, and
  in incident five 2 of Lopez's 5 shots at his suspect,
  Chacon's 1 shot and Vasquez's 1 shot). Of these eight shots,
  only four were hits, or 50%. Finally, it is intersting how
  many of the casualties were achieved by one man, Chacon.
  Although he apparently did not fire or score hits in
  incident three and was not present for incident one, he hit
  with his only shot in the fifth incident, was the only
  officer to hit Hernandez in the fourth incident, and
  actually scored at least one, and perhaps more, hits on
  every man (including the two friendly officers) wounded in
  the second incident.

  As to bullet lethality, a total of fifteen officers and
  suspects were wounded in these five incidents, and they were
  hit by a total of 32 bullets. Most of the injured men were
  struck by a single bullet; four were struck by muliple
  bullets, and of these one was struck by eight bullets. Of
  these fifteen casualties, 2 were killed almost instantly
  while the other thirteen survived and recovered. All of
  those who suffered multiple gunshot wounds recovered. That
  is, none of the fatalities were caused by a cumulative
  build-up of trauma, but rather were due to a single,
  almost instantly fatal, wound.

  There are not enough cases here to provide the statistical
  basis for a complete small arms combat system, but there is
  plenty of food for thought. The breakdown of the hits by
  body area is shown on the following chart. The first column
  shows the body area. The second shows the number of hits to
  that area. The third shows the proportion of the total hits
  sufered by that body area. The fourth shows the number of
  fatal wounds to that body area. The last column shows the
  proportion of wounds to that area which were fatal.
    Area           Total Hits  Of All  Fatal    Fatal
    Head & Neck:   2.06         1        .5
    Chest:         11*         .34       1        .09
    Abdomen:       4 *         .13       0        .0
    Limbs:         15          .47       0        .0
    All Combined   32          1         2        .06
   * The chest and abdomen totals assume that of the three
  shots taken by Officer Espindolo in the back, 2 were in the
  chest and 1 in the abdomen.
   Reference:
   Wambaugh, Joseph, Lines & Shadows. 1984. ISBN 0-688-02619-
  2

------------------------------

Bundle: 507
Archive-Message-Number: 6162
From: Timothy Little <t_little@postoffice.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Small arms lethality
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 1:09:55 EST

>   Lethality in Roleplaying Small Arms Systems
>
>   By Frank A Chadwick
>
>   I know of few issues in roleplaying systems that cause as
>   much passionate argument as do small arms fire, both hit
>   probability and damage.

It wouldn't be such a big issue if it didn't take such a big chunk
of the rules for most roleplaying games.  Partly caused by this,
combat tends to be a vital part of most campaigns.  (It's a lot
easier to write a scenario for which you already have some rules)

[...]

>   When the gunman shifted the pistol to his left hand and
>   turned it on Officer Chacon, Sergeant Lopez quickly reached
>   into his clothing, drew the .38 special snub nosed revolver
>   from his shoulder holster, and fired all five rounds at the
>   gunman in rapid succession.

>   Of the six shots fired at point blank range at Tamez (five
>   by Lopez and one by Castillo), five hit.

That's quite impressive - 80% hit rate for a series of 5 snap-shots,
and the single other shot also hit.

>   Of all of these, the chest wound was the most visible, as
>   Tamez's shirt immediately became soaked with blood, but it
>   did the least damage, as the .38 Special bullet bounced off
>   Tamez's ribcage and did only superficial damage.

OK, low damage roll.

>   The two groin hits were the the most dangerous,

High damage roll.  In systems that account for it, quite possibly
also internal bleeding and other complications.

[...moving Tamez out...]

>   Tamez found it so painful to be dragged over the rocks that
>   he demanded to be laid down and then got up, pushed the
>   officers away, and climbed out of the canyon under his own
>   power.
>
>   Both of the wounded men recovered completely.

Not uncommon.  A large fraction of dangerous or fatal gunshot wounds
are not immediate.  Fairly prompt medical attention is often
effective.

[...]

>   All of the police officers were armed; most of them had
>   two revolvers. Castillo had three revolvers and a shotgun.
>   Several of them also wore bullet-proof vests. Of the five
>   officers, two were combat veterans - both Salgado and Gil
>   were Marine NCO's with extensive combat experience in
>   Vietnam and both were former drill instructors. Gil had
>   also been all-Marine Judo Champion.

[...]

>   All of the officers
>   and suspects were now thoroughly mingled and all were
>   probably within three or four meters of each other.
>
>   Officer Castillo, armed with a short pump shotgun under
>   his coat, was probably the first to fire. He pointed the
>   shotgun at Morales and fired, hitting him in the gun hand
>   and blowing most of the fingers off, disarming him in the
>   process. All of the other officers except for Gil drew their
>   revolvers and began firing.

One shotgun shot to the hand, hitting, doing serious damage to
that hand.  Then more snap-shots, these in a melee situation.

>   Chacon and Vasquez both emptied their revolvers in rapid sucession.

>   The second suspect ran into the night

Night?  OK, presumably bad visibility, too.

>   pursued by Chacon and Vasquez, still firing.

Firing on the move?

>   After a brief chase the second suspect fell wounded.
>
>   The first bandit lay on top of Gill, apparently dead. In
>   addition to the shattered hand from Castillo's shotgun, he
>   had received seven other bullet wounds at point blank range:
>   one each to the right shoulder, left lower chest, left side
>   of the back, upper spine, left elbow, and two over the right
>   clavicle. Amazingly, he was still live.

Took serious damage, but shock didn't kill him.  Depending upon
a more detailed breakdown, 1-3 hits might be called hits to
`vital' locations.

>   The second bandit was shot three times, once in each leg
>   by pistol shots and once straight through the neck, from one
>   side to the other, by a stray buckshot pellet.

Two leg hits, 1 minor neck hit (what's that translate to in
T2000?).

>   Two of the officers were wounded. Castillo, shortly after
>   firing his shotgun, had reached out to grab the wounded
>   suspect and had been shot straight through the wrist, and
>   was almost immediately incapacitated by pain. Gill, as he
>   dove for Morales, was shot in the hip. Both officers were
>   inadvertently shot by officer Chacon, firing across the
>   ditch from the other side.

Outside the melee, firing in.

[...]

>   "Lobo") held Lopez's shooting arm in a vice-like grip and
>   held a knife in his free hand. While Lobo still held his
>   shooting arm, Lopez managed to get his hand to his wasteband
>   and draw his 5-shot Model-36 and quickly emptied it in a
>   semicircle around him: one shot to the man holding the
>   rifle, then one at the man in front of him, then one into
>   Lobo, holding his arm, then the last two bullets at the man
>   to his right.  At this point the suspects scattered and began
>   to flee, except for Lobo, struggling with Lopez.
>
>   Officer Cervantes scrambled out of the south end of the
>   pipe and fired one round at the fleeing suspects with his
>   revolver while Officer Camacho crawled out of the north end
>   of the pipe and fired twice with his shotgun, dropping one
>   of the fleeing suspects (who later rose and continued to
>   flee). Camacho then dropped his shotgun, drew his pistol,
>   and fired five more shots at the fleeing suspects. Officer
>   Cervantes pursued a suspect for several meters into Mexico,
>   fired one more shot at him, and then returned. As he
>   returned, one of the suspects fired first four pistol shots
>   at the officers from out of the darkness and later fired a
>   fifth. Officer Chacon shortly afterwards heard four other
>   shots fired at them from a different direction.
>
>   The officers fired a total of two shotgun shells and about
>   a dozen pistol shots. Of these, apparently one shotgun shell
>   and two pistol shots scored hits.

But there may have been more - there were two *verified* hits.
One shotgun blast (at unknown range, at night, fired at a moving
target) of two hit, about 7 pistol shots were also fired under the
same conditions, 1 almost certainly hitting, the others having
unknown result.  The 5 initial shots were snap-shots, with the
firing arm held "in a vice-like grip".

[... 2 more ...]

>   The third suspect was facing Officer Chacon, who this
>   night was armed with a shotgun. Chacon raised the shotgun
>   and, at a range nearly close enough to touch the suspect
>   with his hand, discharged the shotgun once directly into the
>   center of the suspect's chest. The suspect stood for a
>   moment looking at him, then turned around and walked calmly
>   away into the darkness. Unsure whether he had somehow missed
>   the target or the suspect was wearing some form of body
>   armor, Chacon followed him cautiously and soon found him
>   lying peacefully on the ground, dead of massive chest
>   injuries. (San Diego Police Lieutenant Richard Snider would
>   later describe the wound as, "...a hole in his chest you
>   could throw a cat through.")

As is common with gunshot wounds, death was not instantaneous.  In
this case, almost certainly inevitable.

>   Observations
>
>   In the five incidents presented above, Task Force officers
>   fired about ninety rounds, most of them at close range, and
>   scored 29 hits, or 32%.

What about the `first shot' hit rate?  Most of the shots were
rapid-fire snapshots without aiming - and T2000 assumes that
shots are `normally' fired after aiming.

>   Of even more interest are the eight
>   shots fired while effectively in physical contact with the
>   target (one shot by Lopez at the leader "Lobo" in incident
>   three, 3 shots by Lopez at Hernandez in incident four, and
>   in incident five 2 of Lopez's 5 shots at his suspect,
>   Chacon's 1 shot and Vasquez's 1 shot). Of these eight shots,
>   only four were hits, or 50%.

3 of the shots were "amazingly" misses.  That implies that the
writer expected that they should normally have hit, thus a higher
percentage would be more typical.

>   Finally, it is intersting how
>   many of the casualties were achieved by one man, Chacon.
>   Although he apparently did not fire or score hits in
>   incident three and was not present for incident one, he hit
>   with his only shot in the fifth incident, was the only
>   officer to hit Hernandez in the fourth incident, and
>   actually scored at least one, and perhaps more, hits on
>   every man (including the two friendly officers) wounded in
>   the second incident.

In the second incident, I'd have to say that his hits on friendly
officers shouldn't be counted, since they were almost certainly
not the intended target.  If you count only shots fired under the
same conditions, his hit rate isn't statistically better than all
the other officers.

>   As to bullet lethality, a total of fifteen officers and
>   suspects were wounded in these five incidents, and they were
>   hit by a total of 32 bullets. Most of the injured men were
>   struck by a single bullet; four were struck by muliple
>   bullets, and of these one was struck by eight bullets. Of
>   these fifteen casualties, 2 were killed almost instantly
>   while the other thirteen survived and recovered.

What about the shotgun blast through the chest?  Was that classified
as `almost instantly'?  Also, all those who were known to have
survived presumably received medical treatment.  The fate of those
who didn't receive expert medical help is presumably not known.

>   All of
>   those who suffered multiple gunshot wounds recovered. That
>   is, none of the fatalities were caused by a cumulative
>   build-up of trauma, but rather were due to a single,
>   almost instantly fatal, wound.

This is quite common.  Those who do not die within a few minutes
(and receive medical care) often recover.  Multiple wounds (no one
of which kills) usually kill slowly by blood loss and long-term
internal damage, which medical science can treat, but is often
fatal if not treated.

Also, these cases illustrate severely sub-optimal conditions with
pistols in extremely poor lighting, where both sides are aware
of the other, and in melee circumstances.  Also, even as examples,
they illustrate *typical* results, rather than *potential*.  As
stated earlier in this list, even *maximum* damage to the chest
won't kill a target with most weapons, unless multiple rounds are
fired.  This conflicts with the observation that fatalities were
due to "a single, almost instantly fatal, wound".

Besides, were these examples selected randomly?  They illustrate
less lethality than is evidenced by "The Journal of Trauma".

- --
Tim Little

------------------------------
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 508  6168 13-Oct-1993 l.wiseman1@geni  <<   Mark Urbin <urbin@interlan.interla
 508  6169 13-Oct-1993 Bertil Jonell    Re: Small Arms Lethality << > From: l.w
 508  6170 13-Oct-1993 Bertil Jonell    Small Arms Damage <<   If I had to name
 508  6171 13-Oct-1993 Jo Jaquinta      What's missing from TNE <<  Someone rep
 508  6172 13-Oct-1993 mgood@MIT.EDU    Lethal Replies, and Darrian Psionics <<
 508  6173 13-Oct-1993 gwh@lurnix.COM   Damage in TNE/T2k2nd <<  There is somet
 508  6174 13-Oct-1993 Ineluki Seyt-Ha  Unusual Stellar Objects <<   Hello ther
 508  6175 13-Oct-1993 mgood@MIT.EDU    Tales of the Bard Refuge << This is the
 508  6176 14-Oct-1993 Steven Owens     Space 1889 stuff for sale... << While I
 508  6177 13-Oct-1993 Matthew Mactyre  Traveller to GURPS << Greetings All,
 508  6178 14-Oct-1993 mgood@MIT.EDU    Black Holes << Hi!

------------------------------

Bundle: 508
Archive-Message-Number: 6168
From: l.wiseman1@genie.geis.com
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 03:15:00 BST
Subject:

  Mark Urbin <urbin@interlan.interlan.com>
  and everyone else who asked:

  The garbled bit of the message was unimportant, merely a
  statement that the reason we took the "bendy-toys" ad was that
  they paid cash up front. The rest of it was just my sign-off and
  a repeat of our address and our phone and fax numbers, which are:

       GDW
       PO Box 1646
       Bloomington, IL 61702 USA

       (309) 452-3632 voice

       (309) 452-3127 FAX

       Credit card orders can be taken by phone or FAX, as can errata
  requests.

  ------------------------------

   Robert S. Dean  <rsdean@cbda8.apgea.army.mil>
   > So, what _is_ selling well these days

   T: TNE, T: 2000, Dark Con, and Mythus, in that order.

    > Just as a matter of idle curiosity, what sort of terms would
    > you license use of the Traveller tm under now? Suppose,
    > for purposes of this example, that I wanted to publish
    > a collection of mini-adventures in a close approximation
    > of the old format (64 page, digest sized, etc.)...

   Depends. We usually get a royalty (a percentage of gross
  earnings), and we normally get a cash payment up front (earnest
  money) of $1000, as an advance against those royalties. Size of
  the advance and the percentage of gross is negotiable. With
  established companies like RAFM, we sometimes waive the advance.

   > any chance that you could recap the history behind the
   > Classic->MT shift sometime?  I'm sure a lot of us would be
   > interested.

   One of these days, perhaps, when I get soggy with nostalgia.

   ------------------------------

   Jeff Zeitlin, Et al:

   > What's the FF&S release date?

   November

   ------------------------------

   > When the entire Traveller world adopts our system, GDW
   > will be forced to do the same. We can do it, we have the
   > power

   Let me know when you get it done. I'll be interested is seeing
  it.
   ------------------------------
    Adrian Hurt:
   > What was that about being able to spell correctly? :-)

   I said that I _could_, I didn't say that I always did! : )

   ------------------------------

   Re: High-tech weaponry

   We will be producing stats on a batch of TL-8-12 firearms (I
  have just worked up a TL-9 7.6mm MMG that has a damage of 7, and
  comes with DS (pen: 1-2-5), and plain vanilla rounds). Watch this
  space!

   ------------------------------

   Matthew Goldman goldman@orac.cray.com

   Re: Typos:
   > On a serious note, why are there so many typos and stuff that
   >  looks like no one ever read over the rules after they were
   >  typed in?  Or is it just that I'm noticing the typos more now.

   I think you may be more sensitized to typos now. Compared to
  MT, the typos and flat-out flubs in TNE are rather small.

   RE the CD idea, we are not in a position to spare the person
  hours it would take to OCR it all in and hammer it into shape. On
  the other hand, if someone seriously wants to license such a
  project, sell the CDs, and pay all concerned a royalty, we can
  talk.

   ------------------------------

    "Anthony K. Baggaley"
   Subject: Traveller Toys...

   You forgot the Hiver, with a 10 kilo package of gummi Hiver-
  young (to be consumed by the purchaser as you play with the toy).
  : )

   ------------------------------

   Flynnman

   > although I miss Classic Traveller, I welcome the New Era with
   >  open arms.

   Nice to have someone say it out loud.

   > Does GDW operate a BBS that one might be able to download new
   > product=  info or possible an updated errata for TNE?

   'Fraid not. GDW's does have accounts on GEnie, Compuserve, and
  America On-Line, and I try to keep them supplied with goodies.
  I'll try to shoot a copy of the TNE eratta to James and have him
  put it in the library or whatever it is here...

   ------------------------------

   Vanya:
   > Combat is very safe (avg damage from 9mm round-3.5pts, avd
   >  hits avg character can take in chest
   >  (STR+CON)*3=(6+6)*3=36pts -->
   > 10 rounds of 9mm): the average party will run out of ammo
   > before they are killed. (I calmly let him shoot me in
   > the gut while I return fire.)

   You're neglecting the "Quick Kill rule'" which is no longer
  optional in TNE. Each round hitting the head or chest has a
  chance of killing that target character (a D20 per shot for the
  damage value of the shot or less, in the case of a 9mmm this
  would be a 1). I don't have the statistics to be able to
  determine what the odds are of killing a character in 10 D20
  rolls are, but I would think they are more significant than you
  give them credit for.

   An option we recommend for people who think the combat system
  is not deadly enough is to roll D10s or D20s instead of D6s for
  damage dice.

   >>  and then with #72 it [TNS] starts up again, date-
   >>  lined after the Virus. It is not intended to be a kick in
   >> the  gonads to anybody or anything.

   > But what can it say?

   Pretty much the same sort of stuff that it said before MT came
   out.

   > By the way, Where is Citizen Miller?

   Central Illinois.

   > What happened to him?

   Nothing in particular (see below).

   > Why didne he have anythong to do with TNE?

   He has a day job now...

    >> Does anyone know the real story of why Mark Miller left GDW?
    >
    > Wiseman replies:
    > >  Yep.

   > Why, WHY, WHY did he leave?

   Out of respect for Marc's privacy, I won't give the complete
  details. Basically, he wanted to do other things with his life.

   > Should I send my Vargr corsair to rescue him?

   What would they rescue him from? Midwest Suburbia? : )

   > Who do we have to pay off?

   Marc W. Miller. What would you be making the payoff for? .

   >>  He remains interested in what
   >.>  we are doing with his game.

   > But does he LIKE what you are doing to his game?

   He has some disagreements over minor details, but he approves
  of the Virus and the other major changes.

   Matt Goodman:

   > What happend to the folks who "made" MegaTraveller, the guys
   > and gals at Digest Publications Group.  Are they No More?

   DGP is still around, but they are no longer producing MT
  product (license terminated at their option). They wanted to do
  their own game, A.I. Not out yet, as far as I know.

   ------------------------------

   I tried the buttered bread/feline drive experiment. The butter
  slides around to the cat's feet (leaving the bread firmly
  anchored to the cat's back), and the cat/butter construct lands
  safely (albeit rather messily) on the ground. The cat was really
  PO'ed and wouldn't let me near it for a week.

   ------------------------------

  Glenn E. Myers

   > the new system creates designs that are...require many more
  crew members

   With the scout ship (at least) Dave's intention was that people
  fill more than one slot (in Star Trek, Spock was both XO and
  Science officer). This won't work on the larger ships.

   ------------------------------

   BORIS ZAIDFELD" <cs911408@ariel.cs.yorku.ca>
       -TML Lurker...

   Welcome aboard. Lurk no more!

   < I need all the help I can get! : ) >

   ------------------------------

   J Roberson

   > T2K damage: ...I haven't campaigned since the 2nd ed came
   > out, so I don't have any playtested fixes

   See above, re: Quick kill and D10 instead of D6

   ------------------------------
   Wildstar <wildstar@quark.qrc.com>

   > If you like the T:TNE rules set, go ahead and play in the
   > "Classic" Imperium;
   > don't worry, the GDW Thought Police won't come and take your
   > campaign away from you.

   We won't? Why not?

    [ Insert here sounds of automatic mental readjustment ...
  something really horrifying...think Cronenberg and _Scanners_ ]

   Oh...right...Yeah. We won't. Not at all. Never. No way, Jose.
  Nope, not us. Unh uh...

 Honest!


------------------------------

Bundle: 508
Archive-Message-Number: 6169
From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Subject: Re: Small Arms Lethality
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 14:02:26 +0100 (MET)

> From: l.wiseman1@genie.geis.com
> Date: Mon, 11 Oct 93 04:53:00 BST
> Subject: Re Small Arms Lethality
>
>   Lethality in Roleplaying Small Arms Systems
>
>   By Frank A Chadwick
>
>   I know of few issues in roleplaying systems that cause as
>   much passionate argument as do small arms fire, both hit
>   probability and damage. Over the years I have heard repeated
>   complaints about the "low lethality" of what was originally
>   the Twilight: 2000 combat system, and which is now GDW's
>   core roleplaying system. I don't know how many times I've
>   heard actually _angry_ gamers tell me that they can hit a
>   man-size target 100% of the time at X range, and our rules
>   are BS because they have less than a 50% chance, or even
>   worse.

  According to R M Ogorkiewicz ("Technology of Tanks") tank gunners are on
average half as good in combat as they are on the range. I'd bet that
infantry that doesn't sit in a nice chair behind equivalent 500mm of armour
in a dry vehicle have a performance in combat of one third of what they
have on the range.

>   Or that this wound or that wound might or might not
>   knock someone down in the game, but in "real life" would
>   invariably prove fatal.

  The first thing that should always be repeated in arguments over guns
and damage in roleplaying games is that _not even professional wound-
ballisticists agree on more than the basic mechanism behind bullet trauma
to humans_(1).

***
  Designing a damage system for a game using todays knowledge of wound
ballistics is like designing a SFRPG without knowing newtonean mechanics.
  The absence of formulas has to be countered by using large amounts of
empirical data.
***

  The second thing that should be repeated is that bullets do strange things
in bodies. They can find avenues where they can pass without causing much
damage on the least likely of places(2). Sometimes they get stuck in bones
and cartilage, sometimes they bounce, and sometimes they curve around and
follow the bone in an entirely new direction. Somtimes they change direction
for no reason at all.

>   The following represents most of the actual exchanges of
>   gunfire that took place during the unit's existence. I will
>   present as much information as I know, and make a few
>   observations at the end, but leave gamers to draw their own
>   conclusions as to hit probabilities and weapon lethality.

  I think there exists huge amouts of empirical data on military and civilian
shootings collected by the Army (3), FBI, medical journals etc that would
be useful. I think the example from the border force had a good selection
of cases(4) although (as stated) too few.

  My opinion, though, on systems is that they should have the capability of
giving widely separate results almost randomly. A wimpy bullet should have
the capability to kill a Grizzly while a big and ugly round should have
the capability to leave a wimpy person alive and almost unharmed. The
chance of this occuring does not have to be big, but it should exist.

  [This is why I'm using openended damage rolls, all 6'es rolled means that
another dice is rolled and added to the total and so on, in T2k:) ]

(1). A good example is the stories behind various modern bullet designs:
     Glaser, AET, Hydrashok, Magsafe, Black Talon, Starfire, Sabre, Cyclone.
     Some of them work and some of them don't, and it is for all practical
     purposes impossible to predict this beforehand using pure theory
     without empirical data.

(2). There is an story told about three Finnish machinegunners that were
     shot in the head from directly in front of them by a Soviet sniper.
     All of them survived without major incapacitation because the bullets
     had passed between the brainhalves and above the stem. This is of
     course totally unsubstantiated information and even I think it sounds
     a little strange to say the least.

(3). US Army, the Swedish Army uses anestecized pigs.

(4). Good selection means no selective editing. By choosing real cases to
     suit the theory one could prove precicely anything so it is very
     important that the data is complete.

- -bertil-
- --
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Bundle: 508
Archive-Message-Number: 6170
From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Subject: Small Arms Damage
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 14:05:54 +0100 (MET)

  If I had to name a favourite damage system for an RPG it would be
TimeLords/3G3, but I'm well aware that it is far too complex to use
in general.

- -bertil-
- --
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

Bundle: 508
Archive-Message-Number: 6171
From: Jo Jaquinta <jaymin@maths.tcd.ie>
Subject: What's missing from TNE
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 17:18:59 BST

	Someone replied to my diatribe on TNE asking me to say specifically
what I missed from older Traveller, its resources and supplements. I think
I can succicntly itemise it:
		The Ship's Locker
		Amber Zone
		Casual Encounters
		The Bestiary
These were "departments" in the old JTAS. Jointly they formed a sort of
"cut and paste" directory of "clip art" that you could insert into ongoing
campaigns or adventures. The 6-Patrons section in Challange-70 is a dim
reflection of this. The characters therein are rather limited in their
use. They specifically cater for the given campaign assumptions.
	Why is it called Traveller? The original conception of the game
was centered around the Traveller's Aid Society. Here was the SF equivalent
of an Edwardian men's social club. Members could relax and enjoy a cigar
in most corners of the world. Down on your money or stuck for the next
trip? The notice board in the TAS is the most elegant plot device I have
ever seen for setting players on course for their next adventure.
	An ironic aside: "Travellers" is a term used in Ireland to refer
politely to itinerants. The homeless, Tinkers, Gypsies, and Knackers are
less polite terms. Perhaps GDW's brave new vision of the TAS is a home
for down and out vagabonds.

	The other stock answer I have seen is "RPGs are about using
your imagination. So get out there, dickwad, and use your imagination
to write your own stuff."
	I'm sorry. When I was a student that was fine. Now I'm a nine to
fiver and most of my creative bent goes into my job. Any long-term campaign
becomes individualised. Store-bought scenarios always need some localisation
work. More the longer the campaign has gone on for. The above mention
departments were particularly useful because of their portability.
	I run Traveller for a few hours on unpredictable weeknights. My
weekends are tied up in other hobbies. I'm mentally shagged by the time
I get home from work. And there is *always* housework.
	When I look on my D&D campaign (10 years old this weekend!) I can
see redily that the most expansion, as regards fleshing out of my own
particular multiverse, occured when I was in college and had, say, 8 hours
a week to devote to working on campaign background and adventure creation.
Now the characters are expanding across the world and I am having a
great difficulty finding the time to fill in the corners (Damn Spelljammer
anyway :-).
	Similarly in Traveller, where sometimes several times each
advneture the characters disembark on a completely different world
with a completely different culture it is a great struggle to keep
variety. "So what is Yasedi known for?" they ask. "Buggered if I know",
I'm tempted to answer. All I can do is call up the social detail on my
LIBRARY program and wing it from there.
	"Writing it all myself" is not a tenable option. Not through a
lack of imagination, but a lack of time. Thus I mourn the arrival of
a new mentality in GDW that produces narrow band supplements that I can't
use.

	Silver lining: despite GDW's explination that Space: 1889 never
took off I note with interest that articles, information so forth are
*still* appearing in Challange. The own discussion of it on this list
shows there is still a lot of product loyalty there. I wonder would it
have been better for Traveller if GDW dropped Traveller like it dropped
1889?

				Jo Grant

******************************************************************************
* Jo Grant         _________   * For the science-fiction fan who finishes a  *
* 44 Bancroft Ave ///___|___\  *  novel only to wonder what happens next...  *
* Tallaght       ///    |    \ * For the fan who wishes they could be there, *
* Dublin 24      ------------- *  if only for a few minutes...               *
* IRELAND                 IISS * When just reading isn't enough...           *
* jaymin@maths.tcd.ie   Jaguar *                    ... there is Traveller   *
******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Bundle: 508
Archive-Message-Number: 6172
From: mgood@MIT.EDU
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 12:46:41 -0400
Subject: Lethal Replies, and Darrian Psionics

Hi!

On Darrian psionics, as far as I know there hasn't been anything
published that indicated that they had highly advandced psionics
institutes, but there hasn't been anything that would indicate they
didn't, either.  The Swords Worlds approach to Psionics would be
interesting too... their allies are the Zho's, but they come from
anti-psi Terran stock.

I was convinced by Frank Chadwick's explanation of (basically) why
he had chosen the combat system he did.  I've only been shot,
I've never shot at anyone else, so I wouldn't nit-pick about
the specific conditions of the example.  His point was, simply:
It's not as easy as you think to hit someone, and peoplea
are hard to kill.  This is the basis of the combat system.  As a
former critic of the combat system, I withdraw my complaint ;-)

TA: If you're running a 5th Frontier War campaign, do you have a
copy of the game?  It's really very good, if you have a lot of time.
I used the moves a background for a campaign, and it worked really
well at providing realism, adventure ideas, and unexpected encounters
for the players.

Matt:
The Hexagonal group sounds like the Old Austria-Hungary Empire (or whatever
the formal name of it was).  I remember reading a quote from the  AH
foreign minister who said in 1870 that if the Empire didn't exist, something
would be needed to replace it.

Tim:
Frank provided an "average" example of combat in rugged conditions.
The Journal of Trauma probabaly only concerns itself with worst-case
senarios, so it will have higher death rates.  They aren't likely to
write up "This guy got shot in the arm and but, we took out the slugs,
and he was fine" because that's not helpful to physicians.  The
guy getting shot in the head (and his low probabilty of survival
after spraying his brains all over the other guy) is more helpful :-)

Matt "Mr. Agreeable" Goodman
mgood@mit.edu
(To sub to the Space:1889 list, send mail to space-1889-request@mit.edu)

------------------------------

Bundle: 508
Archive-Message-Number: 6173
Subject: Damage in TNE/T2k2nd
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 12:26:21 -0700
From: gwh@lurnix.COM


	There is something to be said for the argument
which Frank put forwards (via Loren) about most wounds
being minor if treated.  One of my real-world (hobbies?)
is defensive shooting, and I pay lots of attention to what actually
happens out in the real world.  The incidents which were
described, with 90% survival rate from wounds, are about
par for the course, though perhaps a little low.  Nationwide
the highest fatality rate from shootings is rifle/shotgun
shootings with about 35% fatality, then pistols way behind
at 20% to 11% depending on what year it was.

	That having been said, I still think there are some
holes in the T2k2 damage system, and here's what I don't
like about it...

	Situation: .357 magnum fired at bodyguard wearing
good (III-A) body armour, solid chest hit
	Game: dam 2 pen 1 (close range) 9mm mag revolver,
STR+CON abt = 16, so 48 hits in chest capacity.  Shot does
maximum damage for 6 points (1die penetrates) and one more
point of blunt trauma, total 7.  Agility is 7 or 8 for
the individual, so no knockdown, character laughs it off and
returns fire after mandatory lost action due to scratch
wound.
	Reality: Round didn't come close to penetrating vest,
but bodyguard was incapacitated by the blunt trauma for several
minutes, much longer than the shootout lasted, which ended when the
other bodyguard emptied a MP5K into the attacker, hitting 14
times.

	Situation: highway patrol officer stops suspicious car,
3 hostiles exit car and open fire as they run down embankment away.
Officer returns fire, is hit, continues to return fire.
	Game: he gets a 9mm auto pistol wound to his arm,
which should do nothing but _take his next action away_
	Reality: he didn't even notice, keeps firing and
hits 2 hostiles after he's himself wounded.

	
	In general, what I don't like about the T2k2 system
is that it doesn't differentiate between wounding and stopping
power very well.  In reality, about a third of the people shot
once with a pistol fall down and stop moving, though they're
only slightly wounded.  That doesn't happen with T2k2 combat.
On the other hand, what it does try to do about stopping power
(the mandatory lost action) quite often doesn't happen when
well-trained or highly-amped individuals are shot: as even
Frank's examples indicate, many people will keep on going
no matter what, and won't be incapacitated for any length
of time.
	I handle this with some house rules.  My house stopping
power rule is that there's no lost action due to wounding, but that
any shot (anything) has a chance to stop the victim (incapacitate
regardless of wound damage) based on rolling 1D6: if the roll
is less than or equal to the raw damage value of the weapon
plus one, minimum one (i.e. .22's still have a chance 8-) and maximum
five (not even .50 cal MG hits _always_ incapacitate...), then
the wounded character is incapable of any action for 1D6 rounds.
However, every time a character _isn't_ stopped, he gets a
"adrenaline point"... next time he's hit, he can use adrenaline
points to change the die roll on a one for one basis to keep
from being incapacitated.  Note that he does indeed get another
adrenaline point for the roll he has to pay to stay active after.
This takes into account the statistical 3-5% of shooting victims
who are still responding after six or more hits...
	That way, most pistols have a 33% chance to "stop" based
on one shot, magnums have a 50% chance, and .22s have a 15% chance
(which is a little low, but reasonably close).  Most rifles have
a pretty high chance (4 or less for 5mm assault rifle, 5 or less
for a 7mm assault rifle) of incapacitating, which is borne out
by combat wound statistics (most people fall over and are incapacitated
for a moderate while).  The only thing it doesn't work well with
is rigid armour, which I've tended to rule simply stops and
disperses the trauma well enough to nullify the stopping power rule.

- -george william herbert



------------------------------

Bundle: 508
Archive-Message-Number: 6174
Subject: Unusual Stellar Objects
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 19:16:24 CDT
From: Ineluki Seyt-Hamakha <arakins@iastate.edu>


  Hello there...I'm new to the list, so I apologize a head of
time for any social graces I am lacking in, or any rules I might
accidentally break :)

  I was wondering if anyone out there had seen, or developed,
rules and/or suggestions for dealing with unusual stellar
objects.
  By unusual stellar objects I mean things like comets, oort
clouds, nebulae, pulsars, neutron stars, and yes, even black
holes.
  I am interested in a realistic approach to these objects...like
what would the affect of a nebulae be to starship sensors (would
it be like in Star Trek II....would it have no effect...), could
a neutron star have a planetary system (and would it give off
enough heat to support life in such a system), and how close
can you get to a black hole before you're screwed?
  I'm also curious....to all you astrophysics/astronomy dudes
out there...are there any REAL suspected unusual stellar objects
that would technically lie within the boundries of the official
GDW map of known space?

  Just curious..... :)

+---------------------------------+-----------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                    | Iowa State University             |
| Applications Programmer         | Center for Agricultural and       |
| arakins@iastate.edu             |     Rural Development             |
+---------------------------------+-----------------------------------+

------------------------------

Bundle: 508
Archive-Message-Number: 6175
From: mgood@MIT.EDU
Subject: Tales of the Bard Refuge
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 93 21:55:50 EDT

This is the setting I've been using for my TNE campaign, beginning
with some history, a summary of their first two adventures,
and an outline of their upcoming journey.

History of the Bard Refuge (all dates are approximate ;-) ):
The Bard Refuge, as Arrival Vengance and Brilliant Lances fans may know,
is a 60,000 ton Azhanti High Lightning class Frontier Cruiser originally
laid down around 1003.  Insert Standard AHL history here. It served honorably
in the Fifth Frontier War, helping to bring the war with the Sword Worlds
to an early close (see BL).  It was later refitted at the Trin
Shipyard to serve with the Aslan crewed patrol, and went into service in
1126 or 27 (see Arrival Vengence).

Fast forward to 1139.  The Bard Refuge is attacked by a Vampire Fleet,
is heavily damaged, and manages to jump away battered but alive. She
limps back to Trin (over a period of several weeks), and docks for repair
and refit.

A week later, the leaker virus stikes.  As the predominantly Aslan repair
crew tries to move the ship to aid whatever survivors there may be, the ship
starts to act on its own, and attacks the shipyard facility. The Virus kills
off the bridge crew.  The surviving repair crew, largely composed of female
Aslan, manages to force a misjump hoping to destroy the ship.

The Aslan have a running battle with the ship, trying to disable or destroy
it by forcing misjumps and sabotage.  They finally manage to hole the
fuel tanks before a jump.  They stay in jumpspace for 15 days, and after
running low on supplies put themselves into low-berths that they believe
they've disconnected from the shipboard computer.

A few years pass.  The remnants of the Imperial Navy in the expanded
Solomani Sphere, now reduced to Piracy against the few remanants of the
Solomani, discover the ship, totally exhausted of fuel.  Their tests
indicate that the ship is virus free.  Led by Capt. Mark Drake, the
"Privateers" (made up of a mixed crew of mostly Vegans, Humans, and Dolphins)
slowly make basic repairs to the ship, and head it back towards the
Vegan Polity, the pocket empire that occupies the space once occupied by the
Vegan Autonomous Region. They leave the Aslan frozen because of a combination
of uncertainty about 1) whether they can trust them and 2) why they're frozen.

Once in Vegan Space, the virus re-emerges and wrecks havoc in the Vegan
Systems.  Again, the crew engages in a lengthy fight for the ship.
After defrosting the Aslan Commander (A female executive officer),
they take the same track to combat the virus, with the same results.

It is now 1192.  The crew of the Bard Refuge have been frozen for approximately
50 years.  The ship misjumped into the Spica Sector (0720) five decades
ago, and had not been able to refuel.

The Current Situation:
As luck would have it ;-) three groups stumble over the Bard at the
same time.

First, the Far Trader Razor's Edge, composed of a piratical, heartless
crew, traces rumors of the Bard to this system.  They plan to slowly
mine it for it's treasures and make themselves rich.  Unfortunately
(for them), they picked up an 8 year old girl a few months back.  They
thought they were rescuing her from the Droyne she was living with, and
when the Droyne (and the girl) resisted giving her up, they gunned the
Droyne down and snatched the girl.  Since she came aboard, though, strange
things began to happen.  Odd parts of the ship would overheat and melt,
the anti-grav would act up and send stuff flying around the cabin.   Sometimes,
a whole day would go by when they couldn't find the girl on the ship, no
matter how hard they tried.  As the Merchant's luck went sour, they began
to take their frustration out on the girl.

Starting about a month before they found the Bard, one of the more abusive
Merchants was found dead in his cabin, nary a mark on his body.  This happened
a couple more times before they reached the Bard.  They had the girl suit
up in a Droyne space suit (it was only big enough for her) and brought
her aboard the Bard, not trusting her enough to leave her alone with
the ship.  She dissappeared almost as soon as they entered the ship.

Second, a Hiver Embassy Ship which also misjumped into the system docked with
the Bard a few hours later.  The only sentient aboard was a Star Patterns
Trading Human Interface Robot.  It entered the ship through a different lock.
he shortly ran into the Merchants, who panicked and started firing at the
robot.  It retreated.

Third, a Hiver Explorer, charting the system, located the Bard and
also docked.  Two Hivers, Steve and Bob, entered the ship to take a look
around.  They encountered the Robot.  The Robot told them the Embassey
ship was his.  He claimed that the Hivers who had been on the ship
had put down at a hospitable planet, and that he was attempting to
get to the Federation to collect a rescue party.  Had the Hivers
checked their records (they didn't), they would have seen that the ship
had been listed as missing for 60 years.  The Hivers were sceptical, however.

At this point, emergency lighting came on as the merchants managed to jump
start the emergency systems.  The robot warned the Hivers of the Merchants.
He then attempted to connect to the central computer.  The robot sees the
girl (althought the Hivers don't).  The hivers begin to wonder about the
Robot. The Robot (and the Hiver Explorer Ship) are actually Virus.
This Virus, though, had been changed by it's encounter with the Hiver
Embassy Ship, and is curious, non-violent, and had a parental instinct.
The Robot was attempting to plug into the ship so that he could infect the
ship.  The central computer, infected by another virus, now awake because of
the Merchant's activities, tries to defend itself.  The Robot's virus is far
more insidious (I used the Unarmed Combat rules to simulate Virus combat),
and begins to make headway.  The Bard Virus panics and wakes up some of
the frozen crew.  It tells them if they destroy the Robot, it will
set them free.

He frees Captain Drake, the Aslan Exec, and a Vegan Security Officer.
They arm themselves and try to work their way down to the last surviving
main computer bay so that they can destroy it.  They meet the Robot
(the Hivers fled when the Merchants began broadcasting threating
messages to the little girl), and the Robot distracts the Bard Virus
while they all work their way down to the last Computer Core.
The computer kills the Merchants thinking that they are part of Robot party.
The Virus tries to stop them (leaking hydrogen gas into a deck they're
on and attacking them with a Cargo Robot, a few attacks by
makeshift security robots, evacuating the Coputer Core, and finally
threatening the defrost their crewmates in a fatal way.  The computer
tries everything, but the trio the Virus woke up don't believe that
the Virus can kill their friends.  They blow the core, but not before the
Virus manages to fatally defrost a fifth of the 200ish frozen ones.

Then (much to my surprise) a spirited debate broke out about WHO owned the
ship.  The Aslan exec was willing to obey the Captain, as was the Vegan.
The Hivers contended that THEY owned the ship.  Then they tried to convince
the Captian that the Imperium was history, and that he could Captain the
ship for the Hive Federation. He didn't believe them. He convinces them that
his goal (exploration to see what remains if the Imperium) matches theirs.
They eventually arrive at a bargain (even though the Hivers didn't have
diplomatic access) where they Federation will repair the ship if 1) the
remnant crew shares their knowledge with the local Federation Technical
Schools and 2) they attach themselves to the Federation navy for four years.
They agree if 1) they can keep the ship and 2) be able to build a crew
to pilot the ship (about 400-700 people).  They later
find out that the ship will take at least two years to repair.  The
remnants are itching to go home, no matter how home might be now.
Serious denial ;-)

The next adventure was an exploration (on the long trip to the Hiver
Naval base after they had left the Bard) of the mystery of the little
girl, which I may detail later.

Here's the setup for the long campaign (once the ship is ready, I figure
3-4 episodes and four years from the first epsode):

Bard Refuge refitted, takes on self appointed mission to explore wilds.
Hivers also want them to deliver "Know Blocks" along the way, 400 one ton
volume self-contained computers which will progessivly dole out lost tech
know-how (and subtly encourage it's users to have a more Hiver-like approach).
Captain Drake has already agreed to return to Federation Space to report
his findings of the Wilds.

During the journey accross the wilds, they'll have to make contact with
planets, decide who is the most deserving, and leave them with the
know block.  They'll also encounter the usual and unusal wilds and
pocket empire hazards as they attempt to discover the state of the
destroyed Imperium.

The officer corps of the ship is drawn from the Remnants: Human, Dolphin,
Vegan, Aslan, with a smattering of other races.  The crew is green Federation
citizens, hoping to sharpen their skills in the wilds and return to the
Federation.

The PCs:

Capt. Mark Drake, native Terran but fiercely loyal to the Imperium... even
if his ship IS the Imperium. Skilled negotiator and Ship Tactician.
Think Capt. Kirk, but MUCH smarter and "not as goofy".  Also, only
"normal"  human PC.

Executive Officer Commander Kyatu (with much longer "real" Aslan name),
Aslan female, making the best of a bad situation, and trying to hold
together what she considers her Aslan Pride (in both senses).  Has come really
close to swatting:

Hiver Steve, Chief Science Officer. Explorer and owner aboard of the
Bard Refuge.  Trying to pull off the manipulation of a lifetime.
VERY blunt, preoccupied with other species interaction, especially
reproductive habits.  Too curious  ;-)

Ahkillyees, Troop Commander. Vegan Imperial Marine,
Special and Undercover Ops, and Privateer.  Shunned by other Vegans
(Social Level 0) because of uniformly loathed Tuhir (much like a open
Kali Cultist would be in Victorian Times).  One of very few Remnants
with extensive combat skills.

Kiki: Small human girl.  Raised by Droyne, seems to exhibit odd abilities.
She wants to stay with "shiney metal man" whom she's befriended.
Crew keeps her out of loyalty. Really!  I didn't force her on them.
Also secretly STRONGLY psionic.  Learned invisibility and other psi skills
from Droyne. Looking forward to casting later in life.
Convinced she's Droyne.  "They look different until the ceremony".  Also
priceless: before the players knew about the Droyne connection,
the Chief Medical Officer asked her (during an exam) to draw her parents
after she insisted she had wings. Seeing the drawing, the players
immediately assumed she had been raised by Star Spawn of Cthulhu. Sigh.

Robot Joe: Contact Assistant, nanny of Kiki. Star Patterns Trading
Human Interface Robot.  Humanoid, mostly man shaped, shiney. Actuallty
Virus.  Wants to spread kinder, gentler Virus through wilds (and to know
blocks).  Thinks Bard would be perfect ship to do it with.

Major NPCs:

Bob the Hiver.  Explorer, Pilot, Surveyor.  Advisor/Assistant to
Steve, owner aboard.

Tr!ikil!ilki: Cheif Medical Officer.  Dolphin, Patriot.  Secretly Psionic,
senses talent in Kiki, may try to bring it out later.

This is getting long, so I'll stop now.  One last note, though.  Capt.
Drake wants to change the name of the ship.  I suggested this was
against Naval Tradition, and he said: "Does everyone that this ship
has attacked [while it was a Virus] know it's name?" I suggested that
this might be a possibility, and then he said "Oh yeah, Andrea Doria,
that's a good name, let's keep it.  Or let's raise the Titanic, put
it back into service, and call it... hmmmm... the TITANIC!  That'll
inspire confidence in the people we meet..."

He wants to call it the "Resilient".  Robot Joe suggested "The Virus Free".

Matt "Hmmmmm... tell me if this was too long" Goodman

------------------------------

Bundle: 508
Archive-Message-Number: 6176
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 00:04:35 -0500
From: Steven Owens <uso01@mailhost.unidata.com>
Subject: Space 1889 stuff for sale...


While I don't play Space 1889 (I was in the middle of a dry spell when
I first came across it, and I barely get to player Traveller these
days, let alone that weird stuff :-) I noticed that a local store is
clearing out their 1889 stock.  They have the rule book for $10, Ether
Flyers and whatever-it-was for $5, and the world atlas for $5.

This is Colpar Hobby shop in Denver, Colorado.  If somebody absolutely
must have these and they haven't found them elsewhere,etc, etc, drop
me a line, we'll figure out how to handle it.

Oh, the books seem to be in pretty decent condition.

Steven J. Owens
uso01@unidata.com

(I'm not subscribed to the 1889 list, so contact me directly.)

------------------------------

Bundle: 508
Archive-Message-Number: 6177
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1993 22:12:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matthew Mactyre <mactyre@scs.unr.edu>
Subject: Traveller to GURPS

Greetings All,

I'm new to the list and just wanted to introduce myself -- and ask if
anyone has any experience running Traveller in GURPS.  (I know, I know why
would anyone want to do such a thing.  :-)  My time is limited and my
players are familiar with GURPS).  Anyway, I'm open to suggestions for
conversions and play.

Thanks,

Matthew Mactyre
mactyre@unr.edu


------------------------------

Bundle: 508
Archive-Message-Number: 6178
From: mgood@MIT.EDU
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 93 09:18:15 -0400
Subject: Black Holes

Hi!

Dragon Magazine ran an article on Black Holes in Traveller a LOOOOOONG
time ago (1981 or 82).  I may have a copy somewhere, but perhaps
the better organized members of the list may have that info at their
fingertips.

And speaking of old gaming material, I ran across a Sci-Fi/Fantasy
store in blighted Worchester, Mass. that had what was practically
an ARCHIVE of old game stuff.  They had THREE copies of Twilight's Peak,
really old issues of the Journal (I picked up the Hiver issue), and
evena copy of Asteriod, all at original cover price.

What's the catch?  They only take cash :-(

RE: the Anti-grav experiment:
Butter bread.  Find tolerant 11 week old kitten.  Attach bread to
kitten's harness.  Drop kitten from 1 ft. height.  Lands on feet.  Kitten's
brother begins to eat bread.  Hasty, 1 year old calico, manages to rip bread
free of harness.  Cats attack bread like piranhas.  I DO feed them...

Jo: if interest in the Space:1889 list is any indication of the general
Traveller population's interest in the game, then only 5% like the game...

REALLY low numbers.

Matt Goodman
{To subscribe to the Space:1889 mailing list, send mail to
	space-1889-request@mit.edu   }

------------------------------
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 509  6179 14-Oct-1993 "Pedro A.C. Tav  arms damage << To George Herbert:
 509  6180 14-Oct-1993 Diane Kelly      Something to Keep Us Awake At Night <<
 509  6181 14-Oct-1993 S_DMOODY@pstcc.  T:2K damage, low lethality << First off
 509  6182 14-Oct-1993 Mike Basinger    Earth: The New Era << One thing I would
 509  6183 14-Oct-1993 Goldman of Chao  TML nightly: responce to GDW... << l.wi
 509  6184 14-Oct-1993 mgood@MIT.EDU    Those Sneaky Hivers, and Whether Thee T
 509  6185 14-Oct-1993 Steve Gibbons    Thanks, Matt!  (Keep 'em coming, y'all.
 509  6186 14-Oct-1993 Ineluki Seyt-Ha  A bunch of stuff :) <<   Well, I again
 509  6187 15-Oct-1993 Goldman of Chao  TML nightly: Msgs 6175-6183 V62#16 (rep
 509  6188 15-Oct-1993 Gerret Peters    Starship Modifications in TNE << Hi All
 509  6189 15-Oct-1993 James T Perkins  Update to TML Orientation to follow <<

------------------------------

Bundle: 509
Archive-Message-Number: 6179
Date:         Thu, 14 Oct 93 18:50:57 PRT
From: "Pedro A.C. Tavares" <FTAVARES%PTEARN.BITNET@FRMOP11.CNUSC.FR>
Subject:      arms damage

To George Herbert:

I found your mail pretty informing.  I'm devising a damage system of my own
and I've been looking for statistics on what happens to a human being hit
by a bullet.  I don't really care about what happens to the bullet (meaning
that I think it's a waste of time trying to devise a system based
 on the mechanisms related to the effect of one bullet inside one body).  I'm
interested in knowing for specific weapons or weapon types what are the chances
that an average character has of dieing, receiving an incapacitating wound,
being knock down, etc when he is hit by a first bullet and second and so on.

Do you know where I can find this kind of information (I believe the army
has some statistics on this), preferably on the net?

Thanks a lot,
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Pedro A.C. Tavares

Faculdade de Ciencias - Universidade de Lisboa

Email: ftavares@ptearn.bitnet
       ftavares@ptearn.fc.ul.pt
       pedro@eltn.utwente.nl
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Bundle: 509
Archive-Message-Number: 6180
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 93 14:27:36 -0400
From: dkelly@acpub.duke.edu (Diane Kelly)
Subject: Something to Keep Us Awake At Night

Here's a question for general consideration.  Only Dave Nilsen knows the
true answer, and maybe not even him.  The question is:

Why did the Hivers bring about the collapse of the Imperium?

Think about it.

Jim Cambias
Who Actually Likes the New Era
Misusing His Wife's Internet Account
At Duke Bio

------------------------------

Bundle: 509
Archive-Message-Number: 6181
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 14:35:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: S_DMOODY@pstcc.cc.tn.us
Subject: T:2K damage, low lethality

First off, thanks to Mr.Wiseman for his replies.  Its always good to have
an X-boat route to GDW.

As to combat, I stated:
  > Combat is very safe (avg damage from 9mm round-3.5pts, avg
  >  hits avg character can take in chest
  >  (STR+CON)*3=(6+6)*3=36pts -->
  > 10 rounds of 9mm): the average party will run out of ammo
  > before they are killed. (I calmly let him shoot me in
  > the gut while I return fire.)

Which Mr Wiseman replied:
>   You're neglecting the "Quick Kill rule'" which is no longer
>  optional in TNE. Each round hitting the head or chest has a
>  chance of killing that target character (a D20 per shot for the
>  damage value of the shot or less, in the case of a 9mmm this
>  would be a 1).

Actually, it is optional.  The combat section clearly states that this rule
really shouldnt be used against PCs.  Sorry, whats good for the NPC is good for
the PC.

Mr. Wiseman states:
>  I don't have the statistics to be able to
>  determine what the odds are of killing a character in 10 D20
>  rolls are, but I would think they are more significant than you
>  give them credit for.

Okay: the chance of taking 10 9mm rounds in the chest and not being killed,
using average damge(3.5/shot) and quick kill rule:

	n=number of shots=10
	p=chance of success(not being killed)=19/20=.95
	Chance of surviving  n shots = p^n
		
	1st Shot	.95^1 = .95    Survival
	2nd             .95^2 = .9025
	3rd             .95^3 = .8573
	4th             .95^4 = .8145
	5th             .95^5 = .7738
	6th             .95^6 = .7351
	7th             .95^7 = .6983
	8th             .95^8 = .6634
	9th             .95^9 = .6302
	10th            .95^10 = .5987

Thats almost 60% chance of NOT being killed after taking 10 chest shots!
40% kill ratio after 10 rounds = not deadly.

Fix: roll d20<damage points rolled. (ie- 9mm hit, rolls 3 for damage,
Quick Kill on 3- on d20).
This would give (with an average of 3.5 pts dmg from a 9mm-
	p=16.5/20 = .825) survival chances of:

	1st shot  .825
	2nd       .6806
	3rd       .5615
	4th       .4633
	5th       .3822
	6th       .3153
	7th       .2601
	8th       .2146
	9th       .1770
	10th      .1461

This is better.  After 10 shots, youve got a 15% chance of surviving.

>   An option we recommend for people who think the combat system
>  is not deadly enough is to roll D10s or D20s instead of D6s for
>  damage dice.

Now, using my Quick kill rule:
	For d10 damage: 			For d20 damage:
	Avg 9mm damage = 5.5pts                 Avg 9mm damage = 10.5
	quick kill on 5.5- on d20               quick kill of 10.5- on d20
	p=14.5/20 = .725  			p=9.5/20 = .475
	Shot	Survival Chances                Shot	Survival Chances

	1st 	.725                            1st     .475
	2nd 	.5256                           2nd     .2256
	3rd     .3811                           3rd     .1072
	4th     .2763                           4th     .0509
	5th     .2003                           5th     .0242
	6th     .1452                           6th     .0115
	7th     .1053                           7th     .0055
	8th     .0763                           8th     .0026
	9th     .0553                           9th     .0012
	10th	.0401                           10th    .0005
4% chance of surviving 10 9mm rounds to chest with d10s.
 .05% chance of surviving 10 9mm rounds to the chest with d20s.  I believe the
d20s are too deadly, even from a purly gaming viewpoint.

The d10s and my Quick kill rule is what I use in T:2K, along with removing
the END from hit point calculations.  For Head and chest: when dagage taken =>
capacity- shock, dies in END minutes unless serious medical help.  For other
locations:damage >= capactiy - broken bones, torn muscles, death in END*10
minutes unless first-aid; if successful, death in END hours unless real medical
help.  Also, Quick Kill = death in END comabt turns unless first aid, roll
DIFF:END to survive, if failed, death.  If successful, death in END hours
unless serious medical help.
As you see, even the Quick Kill rule gives a chance for survival, especially
with advanced technology.  Time = lives.
(This is NOT good, clean, fun.  Neither my T:2K universe nor my Traveller
universe is a movie.  (Besides, T:2K != Traveller, and never shall.)

Benifits:	No major rules changes, no super-heroic charcters,
		characters dont try to shoot thier way out of problems as much.
		Eliminates the I-calmly-let-him-shoot-me-in-the-chest-while-
		I-return-fire syndrome.
Drawbacks:	Deadlier than before.  Might actually force player to think
		instead of blowing others away.

As for Mr.Miller, I asked:
>> Should I send my Vargr corsair to rescue him?

>   What would they rescue him from? Midwest Suburbia? : )
 						
Midwest Suburbia! Quick! Call the Marines!  Oh, the humanity! ;-)

I then asked:
>> Who do we have to pay off?

>   Marc W. Miller. What would you be making the payoff for? .

Do you KNOW how much a good Vargr corsair costs?? Especially these days, with
the price of chew toys as high as they are??
                                          -Vanya

------------------------------

Bundle: 509
Archive-Message-Number: 6182
From: Mike Basinger <dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Earth: The New Era
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 15:03:50 -0500 (EST)

One thing I would like to see for T:TNE is a supplement on what the
condition of Earth/Terra is in the New Era. Something to look at are;
1. How did Terra fare the virus?
2. Is Terra in the Reformation Coalition?
3. Who is the control power on Terra?

Just a thought,
Mike
- --
D. Michael Basinger: 	Not speaking for Indiana University
			dbasinge@nickel.ucs.indiana.edu
			dbasinge@arapahoe.ucs.indiana.edu (NeXT Mail)

------------------------------

Bundle: 509
Archive-Message-Number: 6183
Subject: TML nightly: responce to GDW...
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 93 15:21:43 CDT
From: goldman@orac.cray.com (Goldman of Chaos -- postmaster CRI-US)
Reply-To: goldman@orac.cray.com

l.wiseman1@genie.geis.com said the following:
>    Matthew Goldman goldman@orac.cray.com
>
>    Re: Typos:
>    > On a serious note, why are there so many typos and stuff that
>    >  looks like no one ever read over the rules after they were
>    >  typed in?  Or is it just that I'm noticing the typos more now?
>
>    I think you may be more sensitized to typos now. Compared to
>   MT, the typos and flat-out flubs in TNE are rather small.

Good point.  I realized that I don't really have anything to complain
about.  Last night I realized that GDW's sales of Classic Traveller
fell off when I went away to college, ie. it is all my fault.  :-)

I never quite got arount to buying MT until just before TNE was
published.  I made up for it by buying 3 copies of everything put out
for Space: 1889.  :-)

>    RE the CD idea, we are not in a position to spare the person
>   hours it would take to OCR it all in and hammer it into shape. On
>   the other hand, if someone seriously wants to license such a
>   project, sell the CDs, and pay all concerned a royalty, we can
>   talk.

I guess this issue can go away from the TML.  Now to work out the
details.

>    ------------------------------
>    Wildstar <wildstar@quark.qrc.com>
>
>    > If you like the T:TNE rules set, go ahead and play in the
>    > "Classic" Imperium;
>    > don't worry, the GDW Thought Police won't come and take your
>    > campaign away from you.
>
>    We won't? Why not?
>
>     [ Insert here sounds of automatic mental readjustment ...
>   something really horrifying...think Cronenberg and _Scanners_ ]
>
>    Oh...right...Yeah. We won't. Not at all. Never. No way, Jose.
>   Nope, not us. Unh uh...
>
>  Honest!

I feel much better now that I've had my visit from the friendly
helpful sales support staff.  Would anyone like to play TNE in
Minneapolis?  :-)

	Matt

- --
Matthew Goldman  E-mail: goldman@orac.cray.com Work: (612) 683-3061

	"No I don't do GaAs or ErRhB like the rest
	 of my family, I'm the token end user."

------------------------------

Bundle: 509
Archive-Message-Number: 6184
From: mgood@MIT.EDU
Subject: Those Sneaky Hivers, and Whether Thee Terra
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 93 23:25:53 EDT

>Why did the Hivers bring about the collapse of the Imperium?

The question really should be

Why did the Hivers bring about the collapse of all of their
large interstellar neighbors (especially those pesky humans!)?

I'm certain that their friends the K'kree didn't escape from
Virus.  In any case,

Problem: Our neighbors are a violent, anti-social bunch, constantly
warring on each other.  How can we change this? Two schools of
thought would emerge (much like they have in the business world of
today).  The first approach emphasizes slow, constant improvement/manipulation
(the TQM of today).  The second approach deals with doing away with
the current system and rebuilding it from a fresh perspective (re-engineering).

The Hive sponsoring the second approach won.  The Hivers counted on being the
only survivors of the Virus, having a ready made friendly Virus to combat it,
and figured everyone else would slip back into larvae-hood, and be tested
by the Wilds (hmmmm... interesting that THAT is what it's called).  The
collateral damage to the Federation was an accident: the friendly virus
wasn't distributed quickly enough.

They probably wanted to take everybody out, but didn't know about those
pesky secret x-boat routes that saved the sentients to spinward.

Now that the larvae are returning from the Wilds, the Hivers are setting
out to educate and train them: Humaniti is now a child being adopted by
the nest, in this case the Federation Development Agency.

Not subtle enough for Hivers?  Sure it is: everybody thinks the humans did it
to themselves.

That's why ;-b

Did I get it right, James?

Re: Terra and the Virus
Somewhere in the TNE book it says that civilizations with knowledge in
hard copy form (ie libraries) were able to rebuild using Vaccuum Tubes
and other alternative technologies that were tried but discarded.  Thus,
the older worlds (Terra and Vland, at least, Muan Gwi (sp?) in my campaign)
were able to rebuild from their ancient off-line libraries.

I would think Terra was hit pretty hard (TL 15), but managed to rebuild
due to it's rich atmosphere and carefully preserved soil.  I'm sure
Billions died, but the Terrans managed to drag themselves out. In my
campaign they're the heart of a pocket empire similar to the one
they had during the Long Night.  Remember, Terra wasn't ripped up
like many Imperial worlds by the Rebellion: the Solomani ran right over 'em.

It would be an interesting place, where many technologies that had fallen
by the wayside (mechanical computers, fluidics, LTA craft, etc) were
now thriving...

Re: Terra and the Reformation Coalition
Not in 1200.  Too far away.  In 1200 the RC is pretty small, apparently
confined to a few subsectors (I think... see TNE for detail).  I would think
the Terrans would resist being absorbed by another huge empire, although
they might try to take it over...

Re: Terra: who's in charge?
The Solomani were pretty early on in the Rebellion.  I would imagine they
were in control when the Virus hit... after that, who knows?

In the Traveller's Digest, DGP did a pretty spiffy write up on Terra around
1105ish.  I don't remember what issue that was, though.

After my massive posts to this lists, you'll all be spared of my
opinions/ideas for a couple of weeks -- I'm going to New Orleans for a
vacation...

Matt (Loves ... ) Goodman
To subscribe to the Space:1889 list, send mail to space-1889-request@mit.edu
and be very patient... I'll be out of town until November 1st.  Seldon may help
you, but he is whimsical...







------------------------------

Bundle: 509
Archive-Message-Number: 6185
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 1993 21:01:48 MST
From: Steve Gibbons <steve@nereid.sunquest.com>
Reply-To: steve@sunquest.com
Subject: Thanks, Matt!  (Keep 'em coming, y'all...)

(End of message.)

- --
Steve@Sunquest.COM

------------------------------

Bundle: 509
Archive-Message-Number: 6186
Subject: A bunch of stuff :)
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 93 23:54:44 CDT
From: Ineluki Seyt-Hamakha <arakins@iastate.edu>


  Well, I again have some questions...:)

  1) Have the stats for Vegans ever been detailed?

  and 2) This question may involve adventure secrets, so
players perhaps should not see the answer. But I was wondering
if GDW has (or has plans to) detailed the following people or
concepts: Pentecost, Longbow, Jumpstart, and the boy Avery. All
of these people or things are mentioned in Survival Margin and/or
Arrival Vengence. Simple explanations for Longbow and Jumpstart
are given...but I suspect there is more to them....any info?

  Just curious... :)

+---------------------------------+-----------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                    | Iowa State University             |
| Applications Programmer         | Center for Agricultural and       |
| arakins@iastate.edu             |     Rural Development             |
+---------------------------------+-----------------------------------+


------------------------------

Bundle: 509
Archive-Message-Number: 6187
Subject: TML nightly: Msgs 6175-6183 V62#16 (reply)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 93 9:15:46 CDT
From: goldman@orac.cray.com (Goldman of Chaos -- postmaster CRI-US)
Reply-To: goldman@orac.cray.com

TML Admin said the following:
> Bundle: 508
> Archive-Message-Number: 6178
> From: mgood@MIT.EDU
> Date: Thu, 14 Oct 93 09:18:15 -0400
> Subject: Black Holes
>
> Hi!
>
> Dragon Magazine ran an article on Black Holes in Traveller a LOOOOOONG
> time ago (1981 or 82).  I may have a copy somewhere, but perhaps
> the better organized members of the list may have that info at their
> fingertips.

I'll dig the dragon issue out tonight with any luck.

Matt

- --
Matthew Goldman  E-mail: goldman@orac.cray.com Work: (612) 683-3061

	"No I don't do GaAs or ErRhB like the rest
	 of my family, I'm the token end user."

------------------------------

Bundle: 509
Archive-Message-Number: 6188
Date:         Fri, 15 Oct 93 12:09:37 EST
From: Gerret Peters <GMP93003%UCONNVM.bitnet@YaleVM.YCC.Yale.Edu>
Subject:      Starship Modifications in TNE

Hi All,
          I'm new to the list, so perhaps I missed this if it's been discussed
already.  I have been poring over the T:TNE rulebook and can't find any formula
e for calculating fuel usage by starships, either interplanetary or inter-
stellar. Is this going to be covered in a future rules manual?

Also, can anyone tell me how to successfully unarchive the FTP files at the
ftp.engrg.uwo.ca archive site?  I tried the VMS/CMS port of Uncompress but
the files still come out as garbage. Help! :0

------------------------------

Bundle: 509
Archive-Message-Number: 6189
Subject: Update to TML Orientation to follow
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Administrator)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 93 09:18:27 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@sp-eug.com>

Near the end of today's digests, you'll find the latest TML Orientation
message. If you haven't seen it for a while, it's been reordered and
updated, and contains a list of related email lists and postal addresses
for Weekend Warrior, GDW, and HIWG.

James

__   __/         /   /	    Internet Traveller Mailing List, Administrator
    /     /  /  /   /	   James T. Perkins in Eugene, Oregon, USA
 __/   __/__/__/ _____/   traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca

------------------------------
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by the University of
Western Ontario. All opinions and materials below are the responsibility
of the originator.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 510  6190 15-Oct-1993 James T Perkins  TML Orientation Message << Welcome aboa
 510  6191 15-Oct-1993 Joe Heck         Re: Staying up at night << >Here's a qu
 510  6192 15-Oct-1993 Jeff Zeitlin     Unusual Stellar Objects <<   Ineluki Se
 510  6193 16-Oct-1993 Grant Sinclair   Sword Worlder Psionics << Matt "Mr. Agr
 510  6194 16-Oct-1993 mgood@MIT.EDU    Vegans << St -1 Dex +1 End +1
 510  6196 16-Oct-1993 Kenneth K Li     Traveller (old) :Questions << Hi all: I
 510  6197 18-Oct-1993 Chris Bray       HIVERS << From: mgood@MIT.EDU
 510  6198 18-Oct-1993 Mark F. Cook     PBEM/TDR E-mail addresses... << > Trave
 510  6199 17-Oct-1993 MSAMUELS@VAXC.S  Re: TML nightly: Msgs 6196-6196 V62#19
 510  6200 18-Oct-1993 "Ed Sharpe"      Those Sneky Hivers, :-) << >Subject: Th

------------------------------

Bundle: 510
Archive-Message-Number: 6190
Subject: TML Orientation Message
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 93 09:18:54 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@sp-eug.com>

Welcome aboard!

You have been officially added to the Traveller Mailing List.
This message outlines all information you need to know about
using the list.

                 AN INTRODUCTION TO THE TRAVELLER MAILING LIST
                           FIRST POSTED: 1 JULY, 1987
                        LAST MODIFIED: 15 OCTOBER, 1993

Hello, and welcome to the Traveller Mailing List.

Please read this whole (8-page) document thoroughly (You'll only need
to read it once), and then make a hard copy of it and keep it for
future reference.  It *should* contain everything you need to start
using (as opposed to abusing :-) the Traveller Mailing List.

TABLE OF CONTENTS

This document contains sections on:
	SUBSCRIBERSHIP (who are we?)
	DESCRIPTION OF THE LIST (the TML manifesto)
	A VERY BRIEF INTRODUCTION TO TRAVELLER (RPG gaming 101)
	SENDING ARTICLES TO THE LIST (nuts & bolts, how-to)
	WATCH THOSE CC:'S AND YOUR OTHER AUTOMATIC MAILER SERVICES
	WHAT TO DO IF MAIL HICCUPS (something goes wrong, how-to)
	TRAFFIC AND DELIVERY STYLE (TML delivery styles)
	CONTENT (statement of administrative intent)
	TOPIC COORDINATORS (sublists and how to get on them)
	HOW TO GET OLD ARTICLES AND SHAREWARE (archive sites)
	TRAVELLER SERVICES (resident experts and special archives)
	A WORD ON MANNERS AND LIST OWNERSHIP (cautionary advice)
	COMMONLY-REQUESTED POSTAL ADDRESSES (in- & out-of-print resources)

SUBSCRIBERSHIP

This all started June 16, 1987 with a posting to USENET, and we have
grown to 413 member addresses, and has outgrown GEnie as the largest
electronic repository and discussion of things related to Traveller. As
long as I am co-ordinating this list, membership will be open to
everyone for free (it's my personal labor of love for the game of
"Traveller").

The membership seems to be very diverse, and well distributed over the
continent of North America and sites in the UK, Scandanavia, Australia,
South America, Asia, and the low countries of Europe. In the addresses I
see all kinds of sites: defense contractors, electronics manufacturers,
publishers, universities, and homebrew USENET sites. GDW, HIWG, and
several other organizations monitor happenings on the TML.

The people that read the list are mostly players and referees of
Traveller. Some of them currently play Traveller but most have played it
at some time or are planning to play Traveller. Many have never looked
at a Traveller rulebook and play other role-playing games, and some are
just interested in science fiction or technology projections in general.

It is my sincere wish that we get the largest possible membership on
this list (the more the merrier), so feel free to tell others about it
that could be interested and have E-mail access.  However, since I
cannot be responsible for any transmission charges, the membership is
restricted to those sites which shoulder their own burden of
transmission costs.

This list is included in the USENET list-of-lists, which appears
periodically in the news.lists newsgroup.  It is also mentioned in the
FAQ for the rec.games.frp newsgroup.

DESCRIPTION OF THE LIST

This list exists to discuss Game Designer's Workshop's TRAVELLER Science
Fiction Role Playing System (what a mouthful), including all derivative
games and rulesets (Traveller: The New Era, Traveller 2300,
MegaTraveller, Classic Traveller, Striker, Azhanti High Lightning, etc).
Discussion is intended to be unlimited and to people with a broad base
of familiarity with Traveller. Subscribers can exchange programs, news
bulletins, new "rules", war stories, questions at any level of
expertise, answers, etc; or just listen.

Also there are a number of you out there (you know who you are), who are
interested primarily in other gaming systems, but want to transfer
concepts embodied in Traveller to other systems. For reasons listed
below (see CONTENT), lengthy non-Traveller messages are discouraged.

A VERY BRIEF INTRODUCTION TO TRAVELLER

For those of you completely unfamiliar with Traveller, a short
explanation is in order.  Traveller is a set of rules for a Role Playing
Game.  Another common Role-Playing Game of wide familiarity is Dungeon &
Dragons by TSR, in which players attempt to guide fictional people (like
characters in a book) through a plot and setting set up by a person
designated to provide most of the setting and arbitrate the results of
player actions (the Dungeon Master, or DM).  What makes Traveller
different from Dungeons and Dragons is that instead of being set in a
medieval/magical/fantasy setting, it is set in a futuristic,
technological society of Interstellar Government and Commerce.  This is
the primary distinction, as both "games" exist to provide the basic
framework and rules by which each world operates.

An illustration: Dungeon & Dragons could provide the background for a
storyline such as any of the "Sinbad", "Conan", "Lord of the Rings",
"Eternal Champion" or other medieval/fantasy stories (to name a few),
while Traveller provides an excellent framework for stories similar to
"Alien", "Star Wars", and to a lesser extent "Dune".  Unfortunately for
you buffs interested exclusively in "Star Trek", Traveller in general
doesn't mesh well with arbitrating that sort of science fiction (but
other gaming systems exist just for this purpose).

Most TML members agree that Traveller's biggest plus is the rich
history, technology, and aliens background provided in numerous
supplements. Many other enjoy the creative aspects of the ship design,
world generation, and trade systems. Most agree that the three major
ruleset revisions (Traveller "Classic", MegaTraveller, and the latest,
Traveller: The New Era) are bespotted with conflicts and blatant
revisionism, but when it comes right down to it, rules are guidelines
and usually don't get in the way of good clean fun.

For more information on Traveller, you should look in your Yellow Pages
for the most sophisticated gaming/hobbyist shop in a nearby metropolitan
area, and drop in. Examine the Traveller: TNE ruleset, and supplementary
materials published for Traveller. Other sources of up-to-date Traveller
information can be found in "Challenge" magazine (a publication of Game
Designers' Workshop), and "The MegaTraveller Journal" magazine
(publication of Digest Group Publications, alas, this excellent source
stopped publication at issue 4); there are fanzines you can ask about on
the TML - the ones I am aware of are the HIWG newsletter and Tiffany
Star; other magazines targeted at Science Fiction gaming may have a
small amount of Traveller-related material, but Challenge has a large
circulation and hence, availability. Naturally, members of this list
will be happy to answer any questions you have, too.

SENDING ARTICLES TO THE LIST

For those of you unfamiliar as to what a mailing list is, it is simply
an electronic mail "mailbox" on a UNIX host computer.  Any mail sent to
that mailbox at that host computer is automatically resent to everyone
in the list.  These mailing list mailboxes are also called "aliases".

There are two mailboxes which exist for this list.  The first is the
address to send any requests to add or delete a subscription, inform me
that your account is moving, request archives of old messages, offer
suggestions as to how the list itself is run, or just chat with me (the
list owner).  All mail sent to this mailbox will be sent only to me.
Most of you have used this mailbox to request that you be added to the
list.  Here is the "REQUEST" mailbox:

	traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca

All mail sent to "traveller-request" will be assumed private unless
explicitly stated otherwise: I will make a strong effort at keeping
traveller-request correspondence confidential.  However, expect that
your name, city, state (or country), and electronic mail address will be
available to other members of the Traveller list.

The second mailbox broadcasts all mail it receives to everybody on the
mailing list, including you.  This is somewhat similar to posting an
article to USENET, and so the usual posting suggestions exist: do not
flame (send those via direct mail), and be reasonably brief (this means
if there is a lot to say, go ahead and say it; but if there is little to
say, don't ramble).  Here is the "BROADCAST" mailbox:

	traveller@engrg.uwo.ca

When you send a submission to the broadcast mailbox, you will recieve
an automated reply indicating that your mail has been recieved.

Please follow these format rules when sending a message to the list:

	1. Use only standard printing ascii characters: alphanumerics,
	   punctuation and special characters (#!|, etc.) are okay.
	   No "control codes" except CR (^M), LF/NL (^J), FF (^L), or
	   TAB (^I), please.  [Reason: mailers sometimes reject messages
	   with unusual characters or control sequences in them.  This
	   means my personal mailbox gets filled up by scores of
	   undeliverable mail messages.]

	2. Please limit line length to 80 characters or less (78 or less
	   if possible).  [Reason: Many people are stuck with standard
	   24 line by 80 column terminals, or worse.]

The addresses on the list are as brief and as simple as I can keep them,
Internet addresses if possible, so that the UWO mailing system can
choose the quickest route for each message. Since the mail is in effect
resent by my host, as long as you can reach the list here at
engrg.uwo.ca your host, then you can reach everybody on the list,
regardless of the mailer domain they are in.

WATCH THOSE CC:'S AND YOUR OTHER AUTOMATIC MAILER SERVICES

If you reply to a Traveller Mailing List article you have received, and
let your mail program automatically choose the address to reply to,
chances are you won't reply to traveller (the broadcast address);
instead, most mailers will choose traveller-request or jamesp to send
the mail back.  That means that I am the only person who will probably
get your message, and then I will have to guess that you meant to send
it to the list, and forward it myself.  Adding a human (me) into the
process is sure to degrade the service :-). In fact, I've set it up this
way to avoid accidental broadcast -- I want people to post with
real conviction, forethought and malice. :-)

So I ask you, when responding to any article received via the list, look
carefully at who is going to receive it before letting your mailer send
it.  It wouldn't do to have a private response automatically and
carelessly sent to the whole list! Conversely, if you wanted the mail to
go out to the whole list, make sure that you use the traveller address.

WHAT TO DO IF MAIL HICCUPS (AFTER SENDING TO THE MAILING LIST)

Occasionally you may get a copy of your message regurgitated to you,
with strange messages such as "user unknown" or "host unknown", or
"message not delivered in 3 days".  If this occurs, PLEASE FORWARD A
COPY OF THE ENTIRE MESSAGE TO traveller-request, so that I can attempt
to determine why the address is bad, and if necessary remove the address
from the list.

Most mail failures are sent back to me, instead of to the originator, so
I can remove addressees from the list that continually cause delivery
failure.  Yes, if I can no longer send mail to you for some reason or
another (I keep getting returned and failed mail), I will after several
failures regretfully remove your name from the list.  PLEASE KEEP ME
INFORMED OF CHANGES IN ADDRESS and account termination, so I'll not be
so overwhelmed in maintaining failures and can do a more quality job.

TRAFFIC AND DELIVERY STYLE

The list averages about seventy messages every month, and the average
message usually tends to be about 2-3 pages (66 lines == 1 page) in
length.  The list has been known to hit 230 messages in one month,
though!

A feature of the mailing list instituted in May 1989 gives each member
their choice of delivery styles:

Instant: Instant delivery means that you recieve each individual message
	sent to the list, as quickly as possible, in your mailbox.
	INSTANT DELIVERY IS NO LONGER ALLOWED, as it places too great a
	load on the mail network.

Nightly Digest: This means that you receive bunches of messages sent
	to the list, compacted into a single message, in your mailbox.
	The software sends out a single digest nightly at 8:30pm, or
	multiple digests if traffic warrants it.

Biweekly Digest: This means that you receive bunches of messages sent
	to the list, compacted into a single message, in your mailbox.
	The software sends out a single digest Wednesdays and Sundays at
	9:00pm, or multiple digests if traffic warrants it.

Bundle Subscription: This means that you receive the archive bundles,
	whenever there is 45K worth of accumulated traffic since the
	last bundle was sent, compacted into a single message, in your
	mailbox.  The software sends out a single bundle on an
	infrequent basis, usually 1-2 weeks apart.

If you want a particular form of delivery, or want to chage your current
form, just contact traveller-request and I will set you up.  The default
form of delivery is NIGHTLY DIGEST.

CONTENT

A word on content is in order. I try to run the TML as a free and
blisteringly open discussion service. I am generally very tolerant of
opinions expressed, even though I may not personally agree with the
originator. I will tolerate general criticism, critique, poor reviews,
and even occasional fits of frustration. However, I will NOT tolerate
direct attacks on another member's integrity.

If you feel someone has unfairly attacked your person, don't respond to
the TML broadcast address. Please let me know. It will result in
discussion between the parties, and at my discretion may result in
disciplinary action. Only one severe case has arised, when one member
described another in an obscene and degrading manner on the open forum.

As far as critique or frustration leveled at a company or it's products,
it is generally tolerated on the TML. Most people who emit such
commentary are striving to share their opinions as a customer of the
product, and I believe that as long as it is even partially constructive
commentary, that it is acceptable for posting.

It's okay to discuss other game systems at length on the TML if they are
discussed in a Traveller-related manner (example: comparison/contrast).
However, long non-Traveller messages are expensive for those who pay for
TML mail delivery byte-by-byte, so if it's not related to Traveller,
keep it to a short announcement of an offline discussion.

Above all, think about the other 400+ members of the TML before you
post. And if you see something that really gets your goat, cool off
before responding, and send me a message before responding if you think
it's appropriate.

TOPIC COORDINATORS

There are also more special addresses to send items to the mailing list.
This is because people wanted to start "special interest groups" for
certain topics:

Traveller EPBM Referee: pbemref@engrg.uwo.ca (Mark Cook and metlay)
	Richard Johnson began refereeing a Traveller Electronic
	Play-by-Mail game, where players are crewmembers aboard the ISR
	Alcyon, on a mission to research a newly-discovered Ringworld.
	Mark Cook and metlay took it over. They periodically keep the
	TML at large informed of game happenings. There are a whole
	family of mailing-list style aliases at the engrg.uwo.ca site,
	to aid characters in routing PBEM mail - for details, contact
	pbemref. Note that the engrg.uwo.ca address actually forwards
	mail to their real mailboxes: markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com, and
	metlay@netcom.com.

Compter-Aided Traveller "CAT": richard@agora.rain.com (Richard Johnson)
			       dan@engrg.uwo.ca (Dan Corrin)
	CAT members discuss how computers can be used as RPG aids in
	playing Traveller, including automated character & star system
	generation.  This list is distinct and mostly seperate from the
	TML.  Please mail to BOTH addresses to be added, as Richard is
	topic coordinator and Dan maintains a redistribution mail alias,
	cat@engrg.uwo.ca.

Traveller Done Right "TDR": tdr_admin@hpcvss.cv.hp.com (metlay & Mark F Cook)
	THIS LIST IS CURRENTLY INACTIVE - ALL DISCUSSION SHOULD ACTUALLY
	BE SENT TO THE TML (traveller@engrg.uwo.ca).  Mark and
	metlay maintain several mailing lists dedicated to replacing and
	enchancing portions of the MegaTraveller rules.  Contact this
	address if and only if you are truly committed to spending large
	tracts of time discussing rule shortcomings and actually
	producing enhancements.  Metlay sends out occasional status
	reports to the TML at large.

2300AD: ftavares@ptearn.fc.ul.pt (Pedro A C Tavares)
	Pedro is interested in keeping those with interest in 2300
	together, and reports to the TML occasionally if there's any
	interesting material. Write him if you're especially interested
	in 2300.

TNE-Pocket: tne-pocket-request@ocf.berkeley.edu (George Herbert)
	George and Guy Garnett (aka Derek Wildstar) have a working group
	to flesh out the history of the "Aoreriyya Region of Reavers'
	Deep Sector". This is quasi-official work sanctioned by HIWG and
	GDW. Members of this list are expected to contribute regularly,
	and periodic reports of goings-on are posted to the TML.

Space 1889: space-1889-request@mit.edu (Matt Goodman)
	Matt has started a mail list to discuss GDW's Space 1889 game,
	which is unrelated to Traveller, but as it's a GDW game, it's of
	interest to several TMLers.

If you cannot reach these people, send the mail to traveller-request and
I will gladly manually forward mail to them.

HOW TO GET OLD ARTICLES AND SHAREWARE

There's some starship designs, programs for world generation and trade
and others, official MegaTraveller Errata, and official Imperium sector
data as posted to GEnie by Digest Group (and much, much, more)! The
whole archives are on the order of 45 MEGABYTES in size.

The primary TML archive site is uwo.ca (or more correctly,
ftp.engrg.uwo.ca, 129.100.100.12, directory pub/traveller). There are
several additional special-interest sites listed in another document
that I can send you.

				------- What's there -------
	Site		Method	Buns	Pkgs	Soft	Shps
	--------------	------	----	----	----	----
	uwo.ca		ftp	all	all	some*	some
	traveller-request
			email	all*	all*	none	none
			disk	all	all	none	none

There are different ways to request archive information, depending on
the site you get the archives from.  'ftp' indicates anonyomous ftp
online file transfer.  'email' indicates reponse and data via email.
'disk' indicates 3.5" DSHD MSDOS floppies delivered by the postal
service.

Also depending on the site, there are different materials available.
'Buns' indicates the TML message traffic, about 20 megabytes in size.
'Pkgs' indicates "Packages" of collected information: errata, software,
official sector data, and starship designs.  'Soft' indicates additional
gaming aid software, beyond that available in the Packages.  'Shps'
indicates starship designs, beyond that available in the Packages.  The
asterisks '*' indicate which site is likely to be most up-to-date for a
particular type of material.

For specific details on retrieving this information and what the exact
site addresses are, mail traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca and ask for the
"How to Get Archives" document.

TRAVELLER SERVICES

Vehicle Design Keeper: robdean@digex.com (Rob Dean) or
			rsdean@apgea.army.mil (Robert Dean)
	Rob has a huge collection of vehicle designs for use with
	MegaTraveller.  Send mail to Rob if you'd like him to send them
	out to you, or better yet, ask traveller-request to direct you
	to the FTP site where they are available.

A WORD ON MANNERS AND LIST OWNERSHIP

I know that everyone on the list is pleasant and excited in Traveller
and will use the list for sharing all the things that make Traveller
exciting, but....

There is no room on this mailing list for people who would destroy the
fun the rest of us are having.  If anyone on the list habitually resorts
to abusive language, misuses the list, or I receive numerous complaints
about them (sent to traveller-request), I will warn them by direct mail.
If the situation cannot be resolved, I will remove them from the mailing
list.  All attempts at fairness and understanding will be attempted.

Furthermore, the existence of this list and the cost for it's
administration and existence is supported by The University of Western
Ontario, the site administrator (Dan Corrin) and the list administrator
(James Perkins, me).  The fact that anyone is on it at all is because
we want you here to listen and to share.  If at any time we perceive a
need to discontinue the list for personal or employer's reasons, or
discontinue any individual's participation in the list, I must reserve
that right with no questions asked.  Sorry.

Also, the University of Western Ontario is not responsible for the
traffic that flows through the list.  All traffic is the responsibility
of the originators.

COMMONLY-REQUESTED POSTAL ADDRESSES

Following are a few postal addresses for sources of fan, out-of-print,
and in-print products and information.

History of the Imperium Working Group (HIWG):

	Contact: Clay Bush, P.O.Box 119, Limon, CO, 80828-0119, USA
	HIWG membership costs $US12 for 6 issues of AAB Proceedings.

	HIWG is a fan support group that is dedicated to mapping the
	Imperium (officially) and expanding upon the written material.
	It was originally created to map out the Rebellion and certain
	people were designated Faction analysts. As with the change from
	Rebellion to Hard Times and now New Era, HIWG still has a
	function supporting Traveller.

For those of you dying to find out-of-print materials, TMLers have
strongly recommended the following store as having fair deals (and
sometimes real steals) on a wide variety of new and used GDW products:

	Weekend Warrior
	8116 Van Noor Ave.
	No. Hollywood, CA 91605
	United States of America
	Voice: (818)988-1441    Fax: (818)988-1998

Payment in US funds by Postal Money Order, Personal Money Order or Bank
Draft. Allow for an extra 10 days for payment made by personal check if
unknown to them.

For currently in-print things, you can reach GDW for correspondence at:

       GDW
       PO Box 1646
       Bloomington, IL 61702 USA
       (309) 452-3632 voice
       (309) 452-3127 FAX

Well, that's about it.  Everything you wanted to know about the
Traveller Mailing List.  Enjoy! And if you have any questions/comments,
let me know.

__   __/         /   /	    Internet Traveller Mailing List, Administrator
    /     /  /  /   /	   James T. Perkins in Eugene, Oregon, USA
 __/   __/__/__/ _____/   traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca

------------------------------

Bundle: 510
Archive-Message-Number: 6191
Date:         Fri, 15 Oct 93 12:27:28 CDT
From: Joe Heck <CCJOE@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu>
Subject:      Re: Staying up at night

>Here's a question for general consideration.  Only Dave Nilsen knows the
>true answer, and maybe not even him.  The question is:
>
>Why did the Hivers bring about the collapse of the Imperium?

I'd be willing to bet that is wasn't a single manipulation that brought down
the Imperium, but a careful combination of manipulation screw ups. The
Imperium killed itself, certainly, and I'm sure the Hiver's didn't plan it
to all fall the way it did, because they lost too, even if they're gaining
big now. If they did anything they encouraged Imperial Paranoia, and helped
break down the ruling structure and the dream versus the reality of the
Imperium.

 joe                          University of Missouri - Columbia
 ccjoe@mizzou1.missouri.edu   (314) 882-5000

------------------------------

Bundle: 510
Archive-Message-Number: 6192
Subject: Unusual Stellar Objects
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 93 18:09:00 -0500

  Ineluki Seyt-Hamakha <arakins@iastate.edu> (Andrew Akins)
  writes...

TA::>  I was wondering if anyone out there had seen, or developed,
  ::>rules and/or suggestions for dealing with unusual stellar
  ::>objects.
  ::>  By unusual stellar objects I mean things like comets, oort
  ::>clouds, nebulae, pulsars, neutron stars, and yes, even black
  ::>holes.

  Comets, and Oort Clouds, where they reside, might be good
  candidates for fuel caches, provided you're equipped to mine
  them.  In fact, as I recall, in the Arrival Vengeance campaign,
  Strephon gives the AV the location of a fuel cache that is just
  that - a cold comet.  Using this cache, the AV was able to go
  directly from Usdiki back to the Domain, without having to go
  through the Ziru Sirkaa or Vargr-occupied Corridor.

  Pulsars would almost certainly be used as navigational beacons.
  I seem to recall that pulsar characteristics are almost as
  individualized as those of Cepheid variable stars, and by
  locating and identifying three pulsars, you could pinpoint your
  location adequately for most interstellar travelling purposes.

  I can't envision a use for either neutron stars or nebulae, but
  they can certainly be used as navigational hazards.  Nebulae
  might be so diffuse, though, as to be of sightseeing interest
  only, if that.  Much like the Aurorae on Earth.  Black holes are
  either subjects of scientific study, or navigation hazards.  Very
  severe ones.

  ::>  I am interested in a realistic approach to these objects...like
  ::>what would the affect of a nebulae be to starship sensors (would
  ::>it be like in Star Trek II....would it have no effect...), could
  ::>a neutron star have a planetary system (and would it give off
  ::>enough heat to support life in such a system), and how close
  ::>can you get to a black hole before you're screwed?

  I would say that if you're rash enough to come close enough to a
  black hole that you have to worry about this, you deserve
  whatever happens.  As far as I'm concerned, you're dead when the
  acceleration due to the black hole's gravity exceeds the maximum
  thrust your ship can put out.  Of course, if you have a head for
  figures, or don't mind yanking out the physics books and playing
  techweenie, you can always play games with high-speed (meaning
  high-momentum) hyperbolic orbits and the like.  I know that there
  are formulae for the "diameter" of a black hole, based on the
  mass.  What this really is, is the diameter of a normal sphere
  whose surface is coincident with the event horizon of the black
  hole.  If you cross that, you're dead.  Even a slingshot orbit
  can't save you.
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ QMPro 1.51 ~ Reality is only that part of imagination we all agree on

------------------------------

Bundle: 510
Archive-Message-Number: 6193
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 00:01:35 +0930
From: Grant Sinclair <grant@cleese.apana.org.au>
Subject: Sword Worlder Psionics

Matt "Mr. Agreeable" Goodman commented that the Sword Worlders were
from Terran "anti-psionic" stock.  I do not believe that this is
necessarily true.

Anti-psionics feelings in the Imperium only started in a big way during
the Psionics Suppressions of 800 to 826, due to the failed
psychohistory project.  The Sword Worlds settlements began during the
Long Night, well before this date.  In the absence of official
information to the contrary, and given the tensions that have always
existed between the Sword Worlds and the Imperium, I would think that a
referee could rule either way on whether or not the Sword Worlders were
affected by the pychohistory project.

It is true that psionics only became prominent during the Long Night,
and it could be suggested that the Sworld Worlders left before the
discoveries were made.  However, I would think that this would be
counterbalanced by the alliance with the Zhodani (as Matt points out).

So the Sword Worlds could easily be pro-psionics.  Perhaps this is
another reason why the Sword Worlders and the Imperium have never got
along.

Personally, I think that that psionics just isn't Sworld Worlder style.
They seem to be tough, martial folk, where cerebral types and
"Sensitive New Age Guys" interested in wimpy psionics get drafted into
the Army to be made into "Men", and proud of it! :-)

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Grant Sinclair                   "Women... you can't live with them...
grant@cleese.apana.org.au         Pass the beer nuts"   Norm, "Cheers"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

Bundle: 510
Archive-Message-Number: 6194
From: mgood@MIT.EDU
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 93 10:56:12 -0400
Subject: Vegans

St -1 Dex +1 End +1

------------------------------

Bundle: 510
Archive-Message-Number: 6195
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 1993 18:26:09 -0600
From: kkl@bert.cs.byu.edu (Kenneth K Li)
Subject: Traveller (old): Questions


------------------------------

Bundle: 510
Archive-Message-Number: 6196
From: kkl@bert.cs.byu.edu (Kenneth K Li)
Subject: Traveller (old) :Questions
Date: Sat, 16 Oct 93 18:31:15 MDT


Hi all: I have make a empty message eariler, please ommited it, below is
the actual message:

I have just aquire a copy of the (old, 1983) Traveller starter edition.
Since I haven't played traveller before (In my whole 14 years of
RPGing). I find it very interesting (It do expend my imagination). But
find a few questions on the game.

1) Do that game have experience and growth on characters?? I could find
that on the rules...

2) Is there still alot of people playing it??

3) How is it compared to Traveller a new Era, somebody say that
MegaTraveller is not good, and Traveller is a classic, I believe it so.
And after reading it, it is a very good system, I like all the formulars
in it, which is logical (as a CS master student) and I like that stuff.

4) How to find more information on the (old) Traveller game??

Please will anybody which is a Traveller Fan give me some hints and
answers....

Thanks.

- --- Kenneth ---


------------------------------

Bundle: 510
Archive-Message-Number: 6197
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 10:40:17 +1000
From: cs576112@lux.latrobe.edu.au (Chris Bray)
Subject: HIVERS


From: mgood@MIT.EDU
Subject: Those Sneaky Hivers, and Whether Thee Terra
Date: Thu, 14 Oct 93 23:25:53 EDT

>>Why did the Hivers bring about the collapse of the Imperium?

>The question really should be

>Why did the Hivers bring about the collapse of all of their
>large interstellar neighbors (especially those pesky humans!)?

>I'm certain that their friends the K'kree didn't escape from
>Virus.  In any case,

Problem: Our neighbors are a violent, anti-social bunch, constantly
warring on each other.  How can we change this? Two schools of
thought would emerge (much like they have in the business world of
today).  The first approach emphasizes slow, constant improvement/manipulation
(the TQM of today).  The second approach deals with doing away with
the current system and rebuilding it from a fresh perspective (re-engineering).

The Hive sponsoring the second approach won.  The Hivers counted on being the
only survivors of the Virus, having a ready made friendly Virus to combat it,
and figured everyone else would slip back into larvae-hood, and be tested
by the Wilds (hmmmm... interesting that THAT is what it's called).  The
collateral damage to the Federation was an accident: the friendly virus
wasn't distributed quickly enough.

They probably wanted to take everybody out, but didn't know about those
pesky secret x-boat routes that saved the sentients to spinward.

Now that the larvae are returning from the Wilds, the Hivers are setting
out to educate and train them: Humaniti is now a child being adopted by
the nest, in this case the Federation Development Agency.

Did I get it right, James?


	I dunno, your explanation seems to easy, and any human who
stopped to think in the RCES could think of it.  I have a feeling that
the collapse of the Imperium, and subsequent rebuilding has far greater
reasoning behind it than simply making for more peaceful space.

	Personnally the Hivers looked out over the neighbouring 10,000
worlds and saw an empire that was stagnant.  It was against AI &
Robotics (cybernetic alteration of humaniti), it was against PSI (one
form of human development) and avoided geneering to a large extent.  The
only neighbours that were interested in geneering in the immediate
vicinity (the Solomani) were a relatively fascist race seeking to
subjucate most neighbouring races.

	The quickest solution to instigate change, and an advancement
for the galaxy was to dissolve imperium.  They probably began the
program after the Psionic oppressions, possibly in about 650 ish.  Were
transponders in effect at this time, or was it a brilliant idea that
someone had :).

	I think the Hivers have succeeded very well.  They have created
an environment which will encourage natural selection, ie in harsher
environments only the really tough will survive.  Consider an orbital
city which relies of Psionics to aid in its operation, this has resulted
in a virus induced catharsis of the population.  The last vestiges of
the Imperium, ie Regency, are now pro-psionic.  Is this all to much a
mere coincedence.

	
	This is just a personal concept put forward, I am unsure how the
feeling of 'That Alien Conspiracy' would go down.  It is possibly not
suited to the TNE universe, but it does give some food for thought.

	Chow


 |-|()()|<	: cs576112@lux.latrobe.edu.au
		: aka Chris Bray.  Of 'Hastur & Fastur' Fame (sort of)
		:
		:	"And the suit has a hand, so I'll shake it" H&C
		:	"Fnord is the second spoon in your Whizz Fizz."

------------------------------

Bundle: 510
Archive-Message-Number: 6198
From: Mark F. Cook <markc@hpcvxmk0.cv.hp.com>
Subject: PBEM/TDR E-mail addresses...
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 7:35:58 PDT

> Traveller EPBM Referee: pbemref@engrg.uwo.ca (Mark Cook and metlay)
>       Richard Johnson began refereeing a Traveller Electronic
>       Play-by-Mail game, where players are crewmembers aboard the ISR
>       Alcyon, on a mission to research a newly-discovered Ringworld.
>       Mark Cook and metlay took it over...
>            ... Note that the engrg.uwo.ca address actually forwards
>       mail to their real mailboxes: markc@hpcvss.cv.hp.com, and
>       metlay@netcom.com.                  ^^^^^^

Please note that the "hpcvss" segment of my E-mail address is no
longer valid.  My correct E-mail address is now "markc@cv.hp.com".

> Traveller Done Right "TDR": tdr_admin@hpcvss.cv.hp.com (metlay & Mark Cook)
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This TDR E-mail address (and all of the other associated addresses) are
currently deactivated.  Any E-mail sent to them will bounce.  If you have
specific questions about TDR, please send E-mail directly to metlay and/or
myself, at the addresses shown above.  Discussion on changes to Traveller,
MegaTraveller, and Traveller:TNE rules currently should be directed to
the TML.

Later,
        - Mark F. Cook (presently on overseas tour in the
                        drizzly south country of France.)

------------------------------

Bundle: 510
Archive-Message-Number: 6199
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1993 23:28:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: MSAMUELS@VAXC.STEVENS-TECH.EDU
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 6196-6196 V62#19

[Sent to traveller-request (me alone) instead of traveller -- fixed --
James]

I have just aquired a copy of the (old, 1983) Traveller starter edition.
Since I haven't played traveller before (In my whole 14 years of
RPGing). I find it very interesting (It do expend my imagination). But
find a few questions on the game.

1) Does that game have experience and growth of characters?? I couldn't find
that in the rules...

Book 2 pg.40 Experience and Self-improvement

2) Is there still alot of people playing it??

Probably not.

3) How is it compared to Traveller a new Era, somebody say that
MegaTraveller is not good, and Traveller is a classic, I believe it so.
And after reading it, it is a very good system, I like all the formulas
in it, which is logical (as a CS master student) and I like that stuff.

MegaTraveller took classic traveller and many of the supplement books and
condensed them.  They also smoothed out several rough spots in the rules as
well, while adding more realitic mechanics.  IMO they did an exelent job at
that.  MT is a step above classic traveller, and all the old adventures are
playable under those rules.  The thing I didn't like about MT is its
background with the "Shattered Imperium".  As a "old" Traveller fan I much
prefered the corrupt "old imperium".  I just ignored all the new background
material and played MT set in the old background.  Then they went and redid
the whole system and spawned Traveller TNE.  This IMO is a complete
abandonment of classic traveller.  They completely scrapped the background as
well as the mechanics.  Now none of the old supplements apply, and the new
adventures are wholy unlike anything that *I* associate with true Traveller.
Perhaps it's just hard to teach old dogs new tricks, but i'm not the only old
salt that was very upset with TNE.

4) How to find more information on the (old) Traveller game??

 ......talk to me !!!!!!

5) Please will anybody which is a Traveller Fan give me some hints and
answers....

Hang in there, Classic Traveller (remind you of Classic Coke?) is not dead.
There are a few of us out here who keep the IMPERIAL SUNBURST aflame !!!

vive le Emperor !!!!   The Iridium throne will always gleem of the light from
		       11,000 stars !!!!





------------------------------

Bundle: 510
Archive-Message-Number: 6200
From: "Ed Sharpe" <esharpe@hsc.usc.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 13:34:43 PDT
Subject: Those Sneky Hivers, :-)

>Subject: Those Sneaky Hivers, and Whether Thee Terra
>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 93 23:25:53 EDT
>
>Why did the Hivers bring about the collapse of the Imperium?

  So you would ask the question.  :-)
//
// esharpe@phad.hsc.usc.edu
//  You keep using that word.
//  I do not think it means what you think it means
//                           - Inigo Montoya

