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From: owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com (Traveller-digest)
To: traveller-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller-digest V1996 #784
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Sender: owner-traveller-digest@mpgn.com


Traveller-digest      Monday, December 23 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 784



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Jtas cost
Complaint about CSC
Aliens Book
jtas
Re: Jtas cost
Re: Aliens Book
RE: Complaint about CSC 
Re: Why the Vilani Lost
Re: Bester's "The Stars, My Destination"...
Re: Why the Vilani Lost
Re: Merry Christmas?
Re: Jtas cost
Re: Interstellar Psionics, Canonical Use Of
Re: Aliens Book
Re: Ship Construction
Re: Ship Construction
Re: Good Grief, Idaho
Re: Off-topic (really)
Re: Jumpspace and Psionics
Re: Tech and Starports
Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #777
Re: Tech and Starports

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 20:53:34 -0500
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Jtas cost

Joe,

      As far as I know the $11.20 cost was for a year's sub. From what I
understand Leroy Guatney recieved a statement with that chaarge on it, when
he asked Marc who to contact, I believe Marc told him Courtney (or whomever),
that person stated that since IG doesn't have a 100,000 subscibers they'd
have to charge extra for S&H.
      If you want I can forward you the original letter (as can any other
HIWG member).
      I can't say I'm happy about this myself between being charge
essentially 8 months before I even get the first issue, and than on top of
that being charged secretly another $11.20 because they decided they fudged
up. Obviously someone didn't have any idea of what they were doing, and we're
having to pay for it (and obviously someone still doesn't know what they
doing).
     If I had a better idea of what I was getting than it might be okay, than
again.....
     Bryan Borich

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 20:54:42 -0500 (EST)
From: matth@homer.njit.edu (Matthew Harelick)
Subject: Complaint about CSC

Hi: 

I have a big problem with the Central Supply Catalog. I was under
the impression that Traveller books would be independent of millieux. 
The way CSC is written, it seems totally dependent on the Imperium and
the Sylean Federation. 

I am also very unhappy about its limitation at TL12. 



- -- 
Matthew Harelick  matth@homer.njit.edu	http://hertz.njit.edu/~msh9848
Real-Time Computing Lab		       http://rtlab12.njit.edu/welcome.html
New Jersey Institute of Technology     http://www.njit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 20:55:28 -0500 (EST)
From: matth@homer.njit.edu (Matthew Harelick)
Subject: Aliens Book

Hi: 

Why weren't the major races included in the Alien Book? 

Matthew


- -- 
Matthew Harelick  matth@homer.njit.edu	http://hertz.njit.edu/~msh9848
Real-Time Computing Lab		       http://rtlab12.njit.edu/welcome.html
New Jersey Institute of Technology     http://www.njit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 21:05:18 -0500
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: jtas

      Oops I made a mistake, it's 11.70 (but hey what's another .50 cents,
right?). Anyway here's the letter:

Subj:	hiwg - Re: JTAS
Date:	96-12-19 23:39:52 EST
From:	lwlguatn@ouray.cudenver.edu (Leroy W.L. Guatney)
Sender:	owner-hiwg@fwe.com
Reply-to:	hiwg@fwe.com
To:	hiwg@fwe.com

Feel free to forward this on to TML, etc.

I noticed a charge appear on my debit card (from my checking account) and
checked with my bank to find out what was going on. They said it was Imperium
Games for $11.70, and was transacted on Dec. 12th. Marc kindly gave me a
 contact at IG and she told me that it was the billing of the shipping
charges for my JTAS subscription

She went on to explain that the JTAS is not a mainstream magazine with
100,000 subs so they couldn't afford to pay the shipping/handling charges out
of the sub price. I told her I would pass along the info to a mailing list I
was on
and she thanked me for that.

It strikes me as a little strange that IG would do business this way,
especially now that they have my debit card number. But, having thought about
it, I guess I have little choice in the matter, since I want a subscription
for at least the first issues. Oh well.

The good news is that JTAS will be out the first week of January.

(One more final.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 20:14:04 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Jtas cost

On Sun, 22 Dec 1996 Kagehira@aol.com wrote:

>      If I had a better idea of what I was getting than it might be okay, than
> again.....

Bryan,

Thanks for the info (including the letter from the HIWG list). 

I hope that, after all this, JTAS #25 exceeds our expectations.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 20:17:35 -0600 (CST)
From: "Joseph E. Walsh" <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Subject: Re: Aliens Book

On Sun, 22 Dec 1996, Matthew Harelick wrote:

> Why weren't the major races included in the Alien Book? 

The way the game designers are doing it, the aliens will be detailed in the 
milieux in which they take on importance.  Vargr will probably be in M0, 
Aslan in 200 (Aslan Border Wars), etc.  Similarly, equipment will be 
given for each milieu as they are produced.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)
       .....Official Reporter of Imperium Games Product Info.....

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 21:20:22 -0500 (EST)
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Subject: RE: Complaint about CSC 

In Reply to Your Message of Sun, 22 Dec 1996 20: 54:42 EST
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 21:20:22 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@strauss2.udel.edu>

: Hi: 
: 
: I have a big problem with the Central Supply Catalog. I was under
: the impression that Traveller books would be independent of millieux. 
: The way CSC is written, it seems totally dependent on the Imperium and
: the Sylean Federation. 

I've always been under the impression that the T4 rulebook would be
Mileu independent, and the rest of the books would be sourcebooks for
specific Mileuex, with M0 being the first Mileu supported.  All of their
releases and planned releases seem to be following this pattern.

: I am also very unhappy about its limitation at TL12. 

I think that's because this the TL limitation of M0.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 21:26:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Why the Vilani Lost

Hi.

> From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>

> What is it? Well, it's simple, its based on the assumption that the Third
> Imperium is really an almost pure Vilani construct in a social sense (and
> this seems to be undoubtedly the case) and that this indicates that the
> conquering Terrans of the Interstellar wars were actually absorbed and
> neutralised by their attempts to dominate and control the remnants of the
> Grand Empire of the Stars (in other words, the Vilani did a China vs. the
> Mongols sort of act). It's further based on the assumption that Marc
> Miller's statement that *Economics drives Everything* in the T4 rulebook
> is, quite literally, true, and was always true of the Vilani Empire.

A very interesting thesis, this "different sort of war" theory. But
undoubtably right. Thanks for the insights!

I question your use of the word "absorbed" when refering to Terrans,
tho; I think it's too strong. I think that the Terrans (a tiny minority
of all humans) had a huge influence on the ideas, fashions, and
language of the governed majority. While the Mongols:Chinese analogy
has a lot of applicability here, I would also consider the even more
applicable Normans:Saxons model, and, even better, the Spanish:Aztecs
analogy.

Just a humble assertion submitted for your consideration.

- -Rob

(Going away for a bit, be back next Mon. 30 Dec.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 96 20:02:30 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Bester's "The Stars, My Destination"...

On 12/23/96 at 10:16 AM,  Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
said:


>      ...was also published as "Tiger, Tiger" in those rare places where 
>      literary allusions aren't completely lost on the populace. 

"...burning bright, in the forest of the night." - Of course, I always
mentally finish it with "I wish I may, I wish I might, have the wish I wish
tonight." <g>

About _The Stars, My Destination_, I've never seen it in short story
form...as was mentioned in an earlier post, but only as a short novel. 
Thinking back, I can see where it could have been a short story that was
expanded though.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 96 20:40:22 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Why the Vilani Lost

On 12/23/96 at 11:04 AM,  "Phillip McGregor" <aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au>
said:

> My suggestion is that the Vilani Military was run as a commercial
> operation and that the wars that they fought were run according to strict
> economic principles ... profit was the bottom line. Just think, for
> example, how this would affect their ship design philosophy for warships!

Ok, I'll buy that.  It fits with how I see the Vilani running their empire. 
OTOH, what the Vilani see as "economic principles" aren't likely to be
"western free-market economic principles."  To a Vilani, it's more
important to do things the *right* way than to do things a better way.
Profit is the result of following the rules, not breaking them.  I see them
very class (even caste) oriented, very traditional, very slow to accept
*any* change.  They are like a deep still lake.

> The Terrans, on the other hand, coming from a more voracious (and only in
> a sense) militaristic culture saw the Interstellar Wars *not* as an
> economic conflict (though they recognised that it was that as well)
> primarily, but as a war of survival! 

The Terrans were innovative, aggressive, change-oriented.  They were like a
sharp sword slicing through the still water of the Vilani.

> By the time the Vilani gained a real inkling of what on "earth" was
> *actually* happening, they were (given the glacial slowness with which
> they were able to undertake fundamental change in any aspect of their
> society) unable to do anything...

The Terrans sliced and flailed and thrashed at the water rolling and
stirring it up, but had no lasting effect.  Eventually the Terrans wore
themselves out and...

...the Vilani eventually won the war!  Now, didn't they *really* win?  

Ok, it took over 2000 years, but in the end it's still the Vilani who
dominate the 3rd Imperium, isn't it?  It's the Vilani's Imperium that
eventually invade and occupies Earth, isn't it?  <g>

The way I see it, the Vilani had never run into a group like the Terrans
before.  They had always been the ones with the newest technology, the most
powerful navy, the strongest economy, and the will to dominate.  They
didn't understand them, and they couldn't beat them in a stand up war, but
they could absorb them...and they did.

The Terrans made a splash in the pond, so to speak, and succeeded in
collapsing the 10,000 world 2nd Imperium into a splintered mess.  They
didn't succeed in maintaining their control.  The Long Night was when the
Vilani absorbed the Terrans, spreading them out so much as to effectively
neutralize them.  The Vilani nobility and merchant class (caste) slowly and
patiently rebuilt their power until they were able to resurrect *their*
Imperium.

My opinion?  Well, maybe. It would be a good story wouldn't it? <g>

I don't think it was a Vilani plan.  I just think this is the way their
culture works:  methodical, traditional, smothering.  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 21:32:24 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Merry Christmas?

Larry Hadley wrote:
> 
> 
>      Have A Stealth Christmas

Hee Hee! ROFLMAO!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 96 21:40:40 -0500
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Jtas cost

On 12/22/96 at 08:53 PM,  Kagehira@aol.com said:

>       As far as I know the $11.20 cost was for a year's sub. 

"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything.", is a good policy
generally, but this is too much!

I paid $30, by check, for a one year subscription to JTAS.  That was
supposed to be 8 issues, $3.75/issue.  I made that purchase in good faith,
and IG cashed my check.  Now they want an additional $11.20?

I've got a serious problem with this!

Following their logic, what's to stop them from deciding that T4 and
Starships were underpriced by...oh say $10...and billing us for it? The
fact we'd never pay, you think? 

Isn't that exactly what they are doing here...raising the price of a
product *after* accepting payment?

So, what now?  Do they send me JTAS AND a bill?  Do they hold my copy of
JTAS 25 and *just* send the bill?  Do they try to pro-rate my account
sending me, let's say, 5 issues rather than the 8 I purchased?  Do they
just keep my $30 and not send me anything?

What about all the people that paid by credit card?  Will you find an
additional, and unauthorized, charge on your December card statement for
$11.20?

Folks, this is *bad* business!


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 21:51:01 -0800
From: David Smart <dsmart@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Psionics, Canonical Use Of

Joseph M. Saul wrote:
<snip. I seem to remember a discussion
> of a freak "interstellar teleportation" power somewhere.  Does anyone else
> recall it?  I think it allowed you to teleport a parsec.

I wasn't privy to the discussion but JTAS #5 has an article on "Special
Psionic Powers" which includes a power called *Jaunting*. It's described
as "The ability to teleport interstellar distances under limited
conditions." Although it has some built-in limitations, given the ease
with which the Zhodani Aliens supplement allowed characters with 
a Psi of 10+, this is one ability I steered far away from due to the
unbalancing effects it would have on any campaign.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 05:40:38 GMT
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: Aliens Book

At 08:55 PM 12/22/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Hi: 
>
>Why weren't the major races included in the Alien Book? 
>
>Matthew

Probably because:

1) They've already been done in previous editions,
while minor races have suffered from neglect;

2) They'll have more room for the majors in later
Aliens books that will focus mainly on one or two;

3) No major races are near Sylea, so they're
not as important in a Year 0 campaign as the
minor races of the Imperial core.

Sound about right?

John Bogan 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 01:26:17 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Ship Construction

> Major engineering projects like a starship will have a flowchart of 
> what projects need to get done, and in what order, and which projects
> have the potential to put others behind... i.e., you can't install the
> carpets until after the floors are put in. Keeping everything moving
> according to the flowchart is one of the primary responsibilities of
> the project supervisor.
> Bottlenecks in production will be noted in advance, especially with
> standardized designs, and will be provided for. Essential components
> will be procured in advance. 

True. But the very fact that the bottlenecks exist at all (even if planned
for in advance) will have an overall effect of limiting the manpower you
can effectively use in the shipyard, and stretching the construction time.

>>By buying the laser from instellarms, you are essentially employing 
>>them to build it for you: so their employees counted as starship
>>construction industry workers while they were building it.

> <grin> And thus making it even harder for you to come up with a
> reasonable figure for "starship construction industry workers".
> Subcontracting and standardization will make any such figure next to
> worthless.

On the contrary. Subcontracting permits you to effectively employ more
workers who are already organized to do the work you want done, thus
shortening the construction time from what it would be if you had to build
the laser in place.

> Like any average, it contains so many other points that may vary *so*
> widely from that average, that it's basically meaningless, IMO. Yes,
> one million credits is a lot of money... but a lot of these components
> are damned expensive, too, so that still doesn't say much about how
> much work is actually getting done.

Components are expensive principally because a lot of men, materials, and
capital have to go into finding or making them. Yes, it's a crude measure,
but is an average price per ton for starships is arguably worse.

> Yes, it *ought* to be faster to build a 100-ton freighter than to build >
a 100-ton DD. Elaborate construction *ought* to result in somewhat
> longer times, until a yard gets familiar with what's required. 

<grin> And basing construction rates (not necessarily times) on cost moves
you in the right direction and roughly the right amount. "What's required"
is extra industrial capacity, which is roughly measured by the cost of the
ship.

  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 01:26:23 -0500
From: Thad Coons <104765.503@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Ship Construction

Michel Nutt replies:

<snippage throughout>

>>Warships are expensive precisely because they require armor, weaponry,
>>fire control, beefy maneuver and jump drives and power plants...

>Mmmmm.... yes to the weaponry, of course, but a hull of a given size only
>needs a jump drive of a fixed size, regardless of the intended use of the
>ship. A lot of the other components you mention here are also strictly
>size-related, although military vessels will typically have more
>capabilities than other vessels.

Thicker armor on the same size ship requires more material. A jump-3 takes
more drive machinery and costs more than jump-1 for the same size ship.
(Otherwise, why  doesn't everyone use jump-3?). Same with the maneuver
drive. All the extra power eaters in a military vessel require a bigger
power plant than a cargo ship the same size needs.

>>>The bigger and more expensive your ship is, the more likely it is that
>>>some costly special equipment you *must* have could be in short supply
>>>at the exact moment *you* need it.

>>Um... how does this follow? I'd grant it, if it said "the more special
>>equipment you need", rather than "bigger and more expensive". Cost 
>>alone doesn't reflect that.

Alright, the more heavy or special equipment you need, the more likely it
is that it, or something needed to provide it, will be in short supply.
<grin>. I'd say most of the "extras" you trade merchant cargo or passenger
space for are either heavy or special.

>The system you're describing for speeding up the construction times is
>the one detailed in TCS, where every 10% extra you spend on construction
>gets an extra 10% work done for that week. The TCS rules also allow for
>speeded-up consruction by doubling the yard space allocated to a
>particular vessel (+40%), with a bonus for familiarity of the design,
>too.
>I've said before, though, and I'll say again... there ought to be *some*
>sort of break for ships more simply designed. TCS didn't cover it,
>because it was a military-oriented supplement, but in my game, I'd be
>willing to give a "civilian ship" an extra 40% bonus on construction
>time, as a top-of-the-head number. The only flaw there is that it would
fiddle with the total cost, and I'd want to avoid that.

Gee.. *something* about TCS actually makes economic sense! <grin>. I 
could just replace your doubled tons of yard space with MCr and get a 50%
reduction in the time to build a ship. I don't fiddle with ship costs
either: but construction times are quite flexible. 
If there is indeed little difference in cost per ton between civilian and
military ships, then there is not that much difference in the systems. If
there is, then basing construction rates on tonnage alone is ludicrous.
By analogy and as an extreme example, assuming that a diesel engine and a
boxcar are similar size (tonnage): should you be able to build them at
anywhere near similar rates? I don't think so. What about tanker trucks vs
battle tanks? I'd say that, other things being equal, the trucks get built
faster even if they are bigger. The same economics apply to starships.

If MT's military reasoning is flawed, then should TCS's economics be
sacrosant? I don't see why.

Thad Coons
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sapience/






 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 22:02:34 -0800
From: "Rich Ostorero" <stormhvn@inreach.com>
Subject: Re: Good Grief, Idaho

- ----------
>
> 
> >From: "Rich Ostorero" <stormhvn@inreach.com>
> 
> >I once went through a ville  called Good Grief, Idaho. Population,
> >according to the sign, was "three people and two dogs."
> 
> I lived in Idaho for many years, but don't recall Good Grief.  Where is 
> it?

Good Grief was somewhere in the Panhandle . . . and it was back in the
early 70s

- --Rich

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 08:40:03 -0800
From: Harald Budschedl <Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at>
Subject: Re: Off-topic (really)

Mused wrote:
> 
> Would one of the TML's linguistic experts be able to tell me what the following phrase
> means: "Die Gedanken Sind Frei"
> 

"Thoughts are free."

CyA
Buddy

- -- 
# Disclaimer: All opinions stated are only MY OWN.
# Harald.Budschedl@mag.linz.at 
# ADV - Anwendungsentwicklung
# Graphisch Technischer Bereich

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 Dec 1996 15:47:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Jumpspace and Psionics

In mail, aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk writes:

>> Alfred Bester's short story "The Stars, My Destination" is required 
>> reading on this subject.
>
> Anyone who hasn't read this - or _The Demolished Man_ - should go and do 
> so immediately. Two of the best SF books ever written.

I decided that I wanted to read "The Demolished Man". And was *very*
unhappy to discover that it is not in stock at any of the bookstores I
checked. I haven't had a chance to see if it's still in print, but
given that I've seen ads for a (too expensive) "special edition" of
both it and "The Stars My Destination", I rather suspect that it *is*
out of print, at least as a normal paperback. <sigh>

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 08:19:23 GMT
From: Jamie Young <jamie@tsc.scotnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Tech and Starports

[snip of Phillip McGregor's critique of Andrew Boulton's argument concluding...]

>Sorry. Your argument won't stand. Doesn't even come close.

Andrew's argument only fails if by saying "Everything is driven by
economics" you actually mean "Everything is driven by free-market economics"

Jamie Young

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 09:22:31 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #777

Phil writes:


          >Think the difference between somewhere like, say, Nigeria (or
>Guinea-Bissau) in Africa and the US. The stuff is still available and
pretty widely. >Local incomes are what restricts its actual ownership by
the bulk of the local populace.

Actually, having spent a year in the bush in Nigeria (possibly one of the
most Travelleresque years of my life - it was so *alien*), I would tend to
disagree.  'Stuff' wasn't available nor widely.  Unless of course you went
to a *major* town/city, say Lagos.  Even in Jos (the nearest town to me -
40 miles away, 6 of them by dirt track, fording rivers etc.), 'Stuff' was
hard to get hold of.

However, I quite agree that it is the local income that then restricts what
can be owned.  For example, I clearly remember (it was a birthday treat!)
buying a pack of 10 processed cheese slices (foul but after bread and gubsa
anything would have done!), for the local equivalent of ten pounds (and
this was 15 years back), that would be what, nearly $20?  IIRC I could only
buy it in the one shop "Onigbinde's" in Jos (not that small a 'town' with a
population of 140,000) that stocked it.  (And had the 'fridge with
emergency backup generator to make keeping it a possibility.)

I can just imagine Traveller tracking down the one shop in the 'backwoods'
starport that might sell what they want, only to find that a substitute
(that isn't really what they want) is not available because local power's
gone out and the item (food or whatever) has spoiled.

As I've entirely forgotten now what point it was I responding to, I'll shut
up and say 'Merry Christmas'

tc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Dec 1996 10:03:13 +0100
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Tech and Starports

Phil writes:
>"probably shipped free by Imperial ships" ... er, you *do* have T4? The
rulebook where it >states quite plainly and specifically that "Everything
is Driven by Economics" (pg. 7). I >would have thought that that makes it
quite plain that is, to put it bluntly, "no such

          You're absolutely right.  It does indeed say that.  I just checked to
          make sure you weren't 'hyping' the quote or anything.

          But I can't help wonder if you aren't taking it a *bit* too literally.
            In a kind of 'rivet counting' sense.

          It would be equally easy to write about the UK, the US and Australia
          (no doubt) that *Everything is driven by economics*.  You'd be
          absolutely right.

          And yet, and yet not *everything* is driven by economics.  While it
          makes good soundbite material and is true in limited sense, it is
          still true that there
          a heck of a lot of stuff that isn't driven by economics (even the
          'broad' definition of economics given in the Traveller rule book.
          There are still such
          things as love, peace and pursuit of happiness in the Traveller
          universe as I'd like to think they're still kick around here.

          While this does not address your real argument about prices and so on,
           which I don't really have the expertise to discuss with you (I bow to
           your
          much deeper/longer thought on the subject!), I do think the rule book
          was being slightly hyper in its quote and MWM wouldn't really want to
          exclude the possibility of the occasional 'free lunch' *somewhere* in
          a large universe.

          BTW, though I fully expect a long, detailed response to this and am
          thus donning my flame retardant Christmas clothes, it's not meant as
          an 'attack'
          or anything.  To show how sincere I am, should you ever be in this
          neck of the UK, I'll gladly show you that there is indeed such a thing
           as a 'free
          lunch'!

          tc

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #784
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