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Subject: TML bundle #621: Msgs 7788-7806 
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Date: Sun, 29 May 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #621: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 621  7788 26-May-1994 JSHiggin@aol.co  More bickering over TCS and RS << David
 621  7789 26-May-1994 Andy Lilly       Various << DEMOCRACY?
 621  7790 26-May-1994 Steve Charlton/  Misc: E-Mail, Fall of Glisten and Sundr
 621  7791 26-May-1994 John V Banagan   Twilight: 2000 Weapons << Hi all,
 621  7792 26-May-1994 "Tariq M. Rashi  Re:For a Few NPCs more << Well here's a
 621  7793 26-May-1994 John V Banagan   Top Laser << Seems GDW is prmoting thei
 621  7794 26-May-1994 John V Banagan   Reformation Coalition << Is the Reforma
 621  7795 26-May-1994 "Tariq M. Rashi  Re:Arizona Dawn Info Services << From: 
 621  7796 26-May-1994 Steven M Bonnev  Xboat Errata?/RCEG Musings << more on t
 621  7797 26-May-1994 "Tariq M. Rashi  Re:Magnum Rifle << All I Wanted was a c
 621  7805 27-May-1994 gerald.s.willia  Grenadier miniatures << Glenn, Steve:
 621  7806 27-May-1994 James T Perkins  ADMIN: PLEASE RE-SEND << If you sent so

------------------------------

Bundle: 621
Archive-Message-Number: 7788
From: JSHiggin@aol.com
Date: Thu, 26 May 94 16:10:55 EDT
Subject: More bickering over TCS and RS

David Johnson:

>> In the case of aerospace forces, an Imperial task group of whatever 
>> size would have some form of orbital support fire, and perhaps even
>> cover from carrier-based space fighters.

> Not necessarily the case.

    Necessarily.  If you don't have orbital control, your guys won't ever
get to the ground (at least I haven't been able to think of a way to get
more than a small fraction of an assault force down to a defended planet
while an enemy fleet existed insystem).


> What kind of forces is the Regency going to use to chase that Vampire
> Fleet from behind the Black Curtain back across Corridor, mopping up
> or `cleansing' worlds along the way?

    They'll use lots of large nuclear warheads...:-)


>> Anybody who has watched the US Army trying to load one armored
>> battalion onto a train will appreciate just how long it takes
>> to move such forces, even if some equipment is pre-packed or
>> prepositioned.

> How long does it take if I have contragravity?  :-)

    Probably just as long.  Civilians don't have a good appreciation of
just how much STUFF an Army needs to move to function.  It's not just
tanks and APCs and howitzers and men.  The tanks and APCs and howitzers
amount to only a small part of any military force larger than a company.



> The `1000 ships per sector' and `50-200 ships per numbered [subsector]
> fleet' figures are from the *Rebellion Sourcebook*, a MegaTraveller
> reference.  It was these numbers that I used to estimate the Sword
> Worlds naval forces at 42 ships.

    This is for the IMPERIUM ONLY!  Not for ANYONE else...


>>  Plus, of course, the 50-200 ships per subsector is ridiculously low
>> BY TCS STANDARDS.

> We've already established this.  Again, what is the rationale for
> accepting `tactical' figures from places like *TCS* over `strategic'
> figures from *RS* and the like?

    So let's ask another question:  What makes you think *RS* qualifies
as "strategic"?  Big picture is NOT the same as "strategic", fyi.


>> Frankly, any single Tigress could beat up the SW
>> Fleet if it is only 40 major combatants...

> Even if it had several 200,000 ton battles?  Is this a tech level issue?

    Yes.  Even if it had 40 1,000,000T battleships.  This, like all
military issues, is a TL issue.  TL dominates tactics in Trav, it
dominates operations, it dominates strategy.  It even dominates
logistics...
    If you ignore TL, then EVERYTHING you say about the military situation
in Trav is meaningless drivel...


>>  Do yourself a favour, and learn to ignore canonical material when it
>> is clearly pretty stupid.  Regina may have had 10 400T SDBs, but if it
>> did, ask yourself "Why?"

> What I'm asking is why you choose to accept *TCS* data over *RS* data?

    Because RS is inconsistent with the reality presented in other places.
For instance, the ability to fight an interstellar war WITHOUT resorting
to sterilization of worlds is a function of military strength.  With a
small number of ships, it becomes impossible to move large enough units
to the target area.  And if you can't take the world, you either leave it
alone (and if it is safe to leave it alone, then there was no point in
coming here in the first place), or you sterilize it.
    Yet Trav REPEATEDLY described successful invasions of worlds.  Several
in the FFW, more in the Rebellion.  WHERE DID THE SHIPS COME FROM?
Supposedly, the total amount of shipping available to the Imperium was
declining steadily during the Rebellion, yet they were coming up with
invasion forces right up to the point when the fighting ground to a halt.
    If Dulinor had had 2000 ships at the start of the Rebellion, where did
he get the resources to conquer whole subsectors?  Certainly, 2000 ships
weren't it.  Unless EVERY one of the 2000 ships could move an entire
division of high-tech troops, which they couldn't (The Tigress is the only
Impy ship ever described that could move a division, though mention of
assault transports was made)...


>>  There is no military use for them (any of Neubayern's Flower class
>> escorts (of which there were more than a thousand) could take all ten
>> SDBs at once.

> You're "mixing apples and orange".  Why would I choose to have a *TCS*-
> generated aggressor fight a *5FW*-generated defender?

    No, I'm describing a SINGLE SHIP.  Designed using HG, which was the
system used to design that SDB.  You are assuming that a ship designed
under High Guard is somehow different than another ship designed using
High Guard just because the one ship was designed for a TCS game, and
the other was designed as a bit of local color for the Traveller game?
Ridiculous!


>>  There is no real civilian use for them (other than to let pirates
>> run amok through the Regina system) - remember that Regina orbits a gas
>> giant, and has a HUGE jump-limit to patrol - thye couldn't patrol it
>> adequately with ten of ANYTHING, much less SDBs that are no match for a
>> well-equipped pirate.

> Let's see what a little creative rationalization can do with this.  I
> postulate one or more fuel refining depots in orbit about the gas giant.
> There are strictly controlled traffic corridors between the 100-diameter
> jump point, the fuel depots and Regina itself.  85% percent of incoming
> traffic and 100% of outgoing traffic passes through these corridors.  Of
> course, some `unauthorized' traffic might skirt these corridors but I'm
> not worried about protecting them from corsairs anyway.

    Let's use a calculator instead.  Regina's 100 diameter limit is about
12,000,000Km.  One incoming corridor, one outgoing corridor means 24 giga-
meters to patrol with your 10 ships.  Which means each ship has at least
2,400,000Km to patrol (assuming the ships are NEVER down for maintenance
and things like that).  Weapon range of 300,000Km means you have to run
900,000Km to get within weapon range of a pirate attacking someone as far
from you as he is likely to get.  Which means that you take about an hour
and a half to get within firing range of the pirate if you had your hands
on the controls just waiting for this to happen.  If the pirate is at all
competent, he can blow up his target in half an hour, and be gone well
beyond your sensor range before you get there.  If, on the other hand, he
is stupid enough to be trying to capture the ship, he'll have done that
in an hour, and you'll find yourself with a velocity differential of
about 330Km/s relative to him (he won't be in weapon range, because he'll
have run AWAY from your line of flight for that very purpose).  If he's
pulling 4G, and you 6G, you'll catch him in about 4.5 hours, which is
about two hours longer than it'll take him to reach the jump limit if
he's smart.  And if he's stupid enough to not jump before you reach him,
then you have to figure out how to beat him up before you overshoot
him (about an hour at your current relative velocities), WITHOUT killing
the innocent civilians on the captured ship.  Of course, to complicate
your planning on beating him up, you have to keep in mind that he is
twice as big as you are, and twice as well armed, and your nearest friend
is around 3,000,000Km away still.  And if he is smart, then he has a very
good friend running amok through your shippin lanes while you are off
chasing him...:-)
    As most of the old TMLers can tell you, I think piracy will never work
in Trav.  But the situation you described is about as close to paradise
for a pirate as I can imagine in Trav - lots of traffic in a small area (thus
saving you the trouble of FINDING targets), defenders spread out all over
that traffic lane (thus letting you know where they are so you can avoid
them).


> I came up with this in about 30 seconds.  Give me a couple of weeks and
> I'll make those 10 SDBs *invaluable*!  (As long as you don't restrict me
> to *5FW* constraints while you use *TCS*.)

    I'm not restricting you to ANY constraints.  I am using HG to design
pirates, you are using HG to design SDBs (the one in question is the
standard SDB from the Trav game (and Mt, and TNE, in different
incarnations).  It has NOTHING to do with FFW.  FFW just provided the
background for GDW to describe the SDB.  And if you'd like to design a
BETTER SDB (using HG, or any other rules set) feel free.  It won't make
a difference, any more than it would make a difference whether the US Navy
used ten PT boats or ten Iowa class BBs to patrol the US coastline.  The
problem isn't the capability of the patrol ship, the problem is the
NUMBER of the patrol ships.  Keep in mind that your ten ships can only be
TEN places at once...


>>  Au contraire, mon vieux...Impy doctrine (which is frankly idiotic)
>> assumes that the battle for the gas giant between the enemy fleet and
>> your SDBs will be the crucial part of the defense of any system.

> Remember MegaTraveller?  The Imperium only fights for high population
> worlds.  In *5FW*, high pop worlds have *hundreds* of SDBs that are able
> to match the jump-mobile naval squadrons.  Furthermore, I believe that
> *JTAS* said that the 10 Regina SDBs deployed in the gas giant's atmosphere
> in order to `harrass' opposing forces.  There was even a rule in the
> game for declaring your SDBs `active' or `passive' or some such thing.

    If the Imperium only fights for high pop worlds, how did they grab
the Border Worlds from the SW?  Only one High Pop world there, so they
shouldn't have touched any of the SW except Sacnoth...
    As to "*hundreds* of SDBs", that is irrelevant to the utility of
the SDBs that Regina supposedly sent to the GG.  You have to assume that
the Commander of the Regina System Defenses knew what he was about.  So
he obviously expected to accomplish something by deploying ten 400T SDBs
to Regina's GG.  But WHAT?
    As to "harassing", what harassment could those offer to a battleship?
Or even a Fleet Escort?  I think if you drag HG out, you'll find that
any combatant larger than a DE can deal with any possible action by ten
of those generic SDBs without breaking a sweat.  In fact, I venture to
suggest that ONE (1) Impy Sylea class fighter could deal with anything
those ten SDBs could do to harass anything...
    And "active" meant that your SDBs did something (mostly died), while
"passive" meant they did nothing (and therefore lived, but accomplished
nothing while doing so).


>>  Admittedly, this isn't worth a pile of warm spit in terms of Naval
>> Doctrine.  I point out, for those who are interested, that in only ONE
>> case in my TCS game did a Fleet jump in to a gas giant, rather than
>> arriving at the 100 diameter limit of the main world.

> What do we have here?  The Cult of the Trillion Credit Squadron?  :-)
> I'm not trying to argue what *TCS* says.  What I want to know is *why* I
> should ignore *5FW* and *RS* in favor of *HG* and *TCS*?

    No.  We have people who like to do EXPERIMENTS!  Try it some time.
Pick out a rules set you like.  Design ships.  Design a Doctrine for
using the ships.  Deploy the ships IAW your Doctrine.  Then let some-
one ELSE design ships, and a Doctrine, and let him put his Doctrine and
ships up against YOUR Doctrine and ships.  DON'T take GDW's word for
waht works.  Or mine.  And don't GUESS!  Get off your lazy behind and
FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF!
    As to the question of strategy and tactics and operations, if your
Doctrine doesn't cover ALL of them, it won't be worthwhile for anything
other than defending a system that YOU are in (you can't give tactical
orders to a froce that is three weeks travel away from you...).
    In my TCS game (which was more a strategic game than a tactical game,
and more an operational game than either one), TACTICS didn't actually
mean very much.  All the players could do is decribe BROADLY what
tactics their fleets should use (what "the Book"said).  The normal
decisions they made were operational and strategic (how should we spend
our money to advance our goals?  Where should we deploy ships to?  How
many should we deploy there?)
    As to why you should ignore FFW and RS, consider:
    1)  Built into FFW and RS is GDW's picture of "tactics" and "ship
design" and "logistics" and everything else.  Which means that
accepting their picture of the Impy Navy requires that you accept
their picture of how a battle is fought.  (Remember those SDBs which
are actively defending the GG?  Or passively hiding there?  Well,
they don't accomplish much UNLESS I go to the Gas giant!  FFW assumes
that a Fleet MUST go to the gas giant (and that there is only ONE gas
giant)  So the function of those pieces in that game assume a certain
tactics used by all sides.  Which is all well and good IFF those tactics
are the BEST tactics possible given the TECHNOLOGY!  They aren't.  In
three TCS games I've run, I saw only three attacks that used the gas
giants the way GDW said they were used.  All three failed.  I saw only
ONE attempt to defend at the gas giants the way GDW said they should be
defended.  It was the most disastrous defeat for the defending Navy I
have EVER seen.
    Note that the three attacks using GGs the way GDW said they were used
were all involving UNDEFENDED gas giants.
    2)  Neither of those games deals effectively with ANYTHING but the
Impy forces in general, and the non-Impy forces in the Spinward Marches.
This ignores too much of the Trav Universe, and requires that you
assume that the K'Kree, the Hivers, the Solomani, the Aslan, and the
countless Vargr states ALL FIGHT THE SAME WAY!  This is incredibly
stupid, UNLESS the "SAME WAY" is the BEST way to fight.  I have seen
too much HG combat to believe that "defend the gas giant, fight them
as they come from the GG to the main world, defend the main world" is
the BEST way to do anything.  I have also seen too much to believe that
"attack the GG to refuel, move to the main world while beating up their
fleet, attack the main world" is the best way to attack anything...
    3)  And finally, neither of these sources is "strategic", which is
the only thing you claim for them that TCS isn't also.  Both are only
vaguely related to any military factor other than number of
ships/men/tanks, etc.  Which any student of the military can tell you
is pretty insignificant compared to other concerns...


>>  Faced with defeat by Ihatei?!?   What a concept!!!  I suppose
>> Regina's ten 400T SDBs might be faced with defeat by Ihatei, if the
>> Ihatei could get in that far, but I find it hard to believe that any
>> _important_ Impy force could be defeated by the Ihatei...

> More Cult dogma?  The *Rebellion Sourcebook* clearly indicates that most
> of Glisten subsector as well as portions of District 268 and Trin's Veil
> subsector fell at one point to the *ihatei*.  Once again we see that the
> `strategic' viewpoint conflicts with a `tactical' one.  How do we choose,
> rationally, between the two?  Can we reconcile them at all?

    You assume that GDW did more than arbitrarily decide the fate of the
Ihatei and GListen, eh?
    You seem unaware that strategy grows out of tactics/logistics/operations
and that tactics grow out of strategy/operations/logistics.  If you can move
your army 30 miles in one day, your "strategy" cannot call for the capture of
an enemy position 300 miles from your nearest forces three days from now.
Because if your strategy DOES call for such, then you'll have to change
strategies in three days when your men fail to accomplish the objective you
have set for them.  And if your strategy requires that worlds be taken
intact, then they cannot be bombarded with nukes and dinosaur killers.
    If the Operational Simulation produces different battle results than
the tactical simulation, then the operational simulation is a bad simulation.
Once your operational simulation produces results consistent with playing
out under a tactical suimulation, then you can proceed to determining
whether the strategic elements decribed in RS are actually relevant to your
operational goals.  If they are not, then clearly the strategic elements so
described are not a good model of the reality you purport to describe.

    Alternately, you can ASSUME that the strategic concerns described are
correct, and assign operational/tactical concerns consistent with that.
    BUT< if you do, then you should be aware that you have then made an
assumption comparable to the French assumption in 1940 that the Germans
could not get through the Ardennes in less than ten days, and certainly
could be stopped at the Meuse River by the forces present along that
frontier.
    Ultimately, ALL strategy/operations/tactics are a function of what
ONE man(army)/ship(navy) can accomplish with the weapons available to
him/it.  So you have to know what a man/ship can accomplish before you
can make any realistic analysis of what your Army/Navy can accomplish.
    And you can't determine what one man/ship can do by looking at
a strategic primer.

> Finally, I've got a question for all you *TCS* cult members.  Is there any
> clear way to identify ship types or classes based upon tonnages?  In other
> words, is there some breakdown like:

> Battles          100,000+
> Cruisers         40,000 - 100,000
> Destroyers       5000 - 40,000
> Etc.?

    Well, for all you RS/FFW Cult members, no, there is not.  Labels in Trav
are largely arbitrary, based on the assumption that spaceships in the far
future are similar to modern Naval vessels.  They aren't.  Not even close.
Which is why so many people who play the game misuse their fighters (which
are NOT analogs of modern fighters, but rather of modern PT boats).
    However, that being said, GDW seems to use the following:

    Battleship = 200,000T+
    Heavy cruiser = 75,000-100,000T
    Light Cruiser = 30,000-50,000T
    Escort = 5,000-10,000T
    Destroyer = 2000-3000T
    Destroyer Escort = 100-1000T
    Fighter = 100T-.

    Note that in my experience, ships as small as 30,000T have been described
as
battleships, and ships as large as 100,000T have been described as light
cruisers,
by the few people who knew that doctrine for use is what made it a given
type,
NOT tonnage.


> What about types/classes themselves?  Is there some finer breakdown than
> battles, cruisers, carriers, escorts, etc.?  Is there a way to tell a
> frigate from a destroyer, etc. (besides what the designer choose to call
it)?

    No.  The designer is the only one who knows what the proper label for
something is.  The USNavy today has 18 "cruisers" that are smaller than
their destroyers.  And once upon a time, a cruiser twice as large as those
destroyers was labelled a "frigate" (back when we were in a nostalgia phase
in the Navy, and wanted to bring to mind the Constitution and such).
    You may, of course, assign labels to suit yourself, f you don't like the
designer's.  If your labels don't take into account tactical/operational
use for the ships, they will be pretty meaningless, but that's your
privilege...

                ---Steve

Vanishing down the corridor to XTML immediately, never to appear
here again....


------------------------------

Bundle: 621
Archive-Message-Number: 7789
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 10:02:27 +0100
From: A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
Subject: Various

DEMOCRACY?

Re 616/7745 djohnson:
> ...in Europe representatives are chosen through a representative democracy
> that places power in the hands of individuals equally while in a
> feudal technocracy those representatives are chosen by shareholders that
> place power in the hands of owners of production.
(Any spelling errors are mine, not Dave's)

Hmm. Perhaps ideally... :-) It might be fairer to note that the 'elected' 
representatives only get where they are by lying, back-handers, use of the 
media to portray them as 'nice people', etc. [allegedly]. They rarely think 
for themselves, preferring to tow the 'party line'. In the case of a certain 
current European government within a few miles of myself, the strings are, 
in reality, pulled totally by the owners of production, who ensure the 
politicians vote as they desire in order that they can maintain their high 
profits and so that the politicians can become directors when they retire 
from politics. Perhaps not so different from a feudal technocracy? :-) or 
should it be :-( ?

THE SWORD WORLDS 'DEBATE'
A lot of the problem seems to be over someone having TL11 and not having as 
good starships as a TL12 world, etc. Given the World Builder's Handbook, for 
TL11, maximum TL for a particular facet (power, ships, domestic, etc.) is 11 
+ (11/5) = 13. So in theory the world might be rated TL11 but actually still 
retain (or have built up to) TL12 or TL13 in their starship production. This 
might well be the case if the world was particularly worried about being 
able to defend itself from attack. Perhaps the TL12 ship production is 
military only, so all other ships (traders, etc.) are only TL11. Perhaps the 
domestic economy (if you play TL as a reflection of economy) has suffered to 
make up for this input into the military such that the populace only has TL9 
or worse facilities. Just some thoughts...

WHY DOESN'T EVERYONE HAVE THE BOMB?
New Scientist once carried an article describing how to make a nuclear bomb 
in your own home. It did point out that you'd die of radiation poisoning but 
that if the exercise was being carried out by a terrorist this might not 
matter. Given the theory that plutonium is available by cash or manufacture, 
how does one get it? Obvious answer is to go and TAKE it. That's what 
terrorists could do. If your own country isn't suitable, pop across to a 
nearby dissolving multi-state ex iron-curtain country, tip some guards a few 
credits and walk off with a preprepared warhead. Hell, take the whole 
missile. :-)

To apply this to a wider range of products, even should your own world be 
TL11 and unable to supply TL12 replacements for your bought-in TL12 
thingummy-jigs, there's no reason why you shouldn't buy, steal or smuggle 
such from other worlds. If it's important enough then I would assume a 
government would be quite willing to go many jumps and deal with less than 
scrupulous worlds in order to obtain what they want. You only have to look 
at today's arms trade.

"What's this consignment of pipes for Iraq?"
 "Oh, just some plumbing for a water refinery."
"And these huge pointed bullet-like cylinders."
 "I think they go along inside the pipes - for cleaning... probably..."

alternatively...

"So you never did see this memo mentioning this firm selling 
gun-manufacturing machinery to this country?"
 "I have so many pieces of paper passing across my desk I can't possibly read
 every one. Anyway the machinery was marked as for industrial use."
"But that's because your own government department tipped them off that if 
they made any implication the machinery could make weapons they'd be refused 
an export permit."
 "Er..."

or even...

Foreign gentleman:
"About this dam you've been so kind to invest in..."
Govt trade rep:
 "Oh yes old chap?" (knowing smile)
"Just happen to have a few contracts for your military boys..."
 "Oh, how jolly nice of you."
"Nothing to do with the dam of course..."
 "Of course not. How silly. Incidentally, do you need any 'investment' anywhere
 else?"

GREEN VIRUS
Thanks Steve and Cynthia. Anyone else care to play?

Enough for now...

Andy
Commander Lilly, PITS (Political Intelligence Team, Scout)
Nothing I say or do in any way reflects the views of my very kind and
generous employers.


------------------------------

Bundle: 621
Archive-Message-Number: 7790
From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc
Date: 26 May 94 16:24:54 MS
Subject: Misc: E-Mail, Fall of Glisten and Sundry

David Johnson's comment on my Imperial marines post from the 
other night made me notice that, for reasons unknown to me, my mail 
server keeps dropping my address.   I'll have to get that fixed.  If anyone
REALLY cares, it is scharlto@avalon.com

>>Anybody who has watched the US Army trying to load one armored
>>battalion onto a train will appreciate just how long it takes to move
>>such forces, even if some equipment is pre-packed or prepositioned.

>How long does it take if I have contragravity?

Get that damn grav vehicle off of my train!  You're messing up my 
harmonious tech level karma.

Actually, the problems I saw were more because the equipment was
being combat loaded; which means important stuff was being loaded
last so as to be the first thing unloaded.  The problem was, nobody could
agree as to what was important.  

OK, Glisten... A couple of people were surprised that Glisten with its
umpteen billions of population and lots of SDBs would have fallen
to the Ihatei.  I imagine the Aslan did not really invade Glisten so much
as capture all of the surrounding agricultural worlds.  I'm sure Glisten
had hydroponics and carniculture plants as internal food sources, but
there would have been some form of dependence on supplemental outside
food sources.  Basically, reprocessed algae might keep you
alive, but probably would not keep you overly happy or healthy.  The
Ihatei probably waited a few months and then suggested a small change
in alliegence in exchange for some non-artificial food.  The humans would
get to stay alive, retain their property and eat a good meal, while the Aslan
would gain a high-tech industrial base in the Spinward Marches.

What do you think, sirs?

(Still does not reflect the views of my company)


------------------------------

Bundle: 621
Archive-Message-Number: 7791
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 19:00:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: John V Banagan <jbanagan@uclink2.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Twilight: 2000 Weapons


Hi all,


Are all the weapons in the Twilight:2000 game usable with the TNE game 
system? Is this a new marketing strategy for GDW to make all their games 
compatible? I bring this up because I was looking through issue 72 of
Challenge and there is an article on advanced infantry weapons and the 
stats are identical to TNW weapons.

Which brings about the point, are the vehicles in Twilight:2000 
compatible with TNE rules. I was thinking of running a variant where the 
PCs are from a Tech-7 world and they have to fight off an invading 
Imperial Army of Tec-12. (Abrams vs. G-Carriers, whoopee!)

John

------------------------------

Bundle: 621
Archive-Message-Number: 7792
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 20:59:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Subject: Re:For a Few NPCs more

Well here's another batch of NPCs, I hope that you find them at least 
interesting if not useful... I expect to see a flood of NPCs anytime now 
from you refs out there (hint..hint  :-)

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dr Maximillian Economopolous  (Dr Max Eco)	Born 36,1150 Aurigae
6-6-7-A-C-8  Soc-7					Age 51

Computer-8	Whld Veh-2	Electronics-3
Lrg Wtrcrft-2	Observation-2	Slug Pistol-2
Small WtrCr-2	Physics-6	Research-4
Robotics-2	Investigation-4	Language-1
Env Suit-2	Swimming-4	Bribery-1
Energy Pist-2	Willpower-2	Geneticd-2

Dr Eco was born outside the coastal city Adskir's Landing on the planet 
Aurigae and grew up on or near the water because of the seafaring 
tradition of the region.  He developed an early interest in computer 
technology and continued to develop this despite his early seafaring life.  
Boredom and economic reasons led to Max's joining the merchant marine at 
the age of 17.  With a cooperative captain he was able to streamline the 
operations of his ship and increase its effeciency in more ways than 
one.  After a couple years in Max decided to pursue his interest in 
computer technology and due to his aptitude was able to win a scholarship 
to study at Sol City University on Prima, then capital of the NeoSol 
Confederation.  While there he continued his maritime pursuits by diving 
and racing powerboats on the lake just outside the spreading city.  Max 
got an university degree in Computer Technology and was invited to pursue 
graduate work.  He developed an interest in the very theories of computer 
science and studied such concepts and virtual reality and biological 
combinations with computer technology.  He ultimately developed an 
interest in quantum computer technology. (dont ask)  After finishing the 
graduate program he obtained his doctorate in Computer Science.  The 
scholarship required that he serve an 8 yr term in the Federation Scientific 
Agency and did so studying the problem of heuristic computer systems 
whose physcial structure is modified by the virtual structure.  He also 
spent some time studying the problem of electronic/photonic interfacing 
with biological organisms and was part of a team that tested some simple 
enhancements on animals.  Its ultimate goal was the cybernetic enhancement of 
humans in a whole new way.  The program at this stage showed little 
promise of success.  Due to changes of focus and ethical questions the 
program was discontinued.  After completing his term Dr Eco returned to his
home planet Aurigae to the University of Ayken located in the Nemon 
Province.  Archaeologists there had discovered both an ancient Sea Bottom 
Arcology as well as an ancient base of some sort, dates were put at 1000 
yrs or better.  The Arcology had been intentionally flooded or so the 
theory went but the cause was not known.  What got Dr Eco involved was 
that both sites contained fragments of various sizes of some sort of 
three dimensional crystalline computer core.  Dr Eco believed he could 
recover some of the virtaul knowledge from these fragments based upon his 
quantum computing models and theories.  This combined with the draw of 
the sea led Dr Eco to join the sea going research team where he spent 
most of his time aboard the Aurigae Explorer, a survey ship.  As 
fragments were recovered with Dr Eco personally recovering some, an 
interesting picture developed.  During this time there was a potentially 
very dangerous conflict brewing.  A people known as the Nemons primarily 
because they lived in that province on Aurigae around the supposedly 
ancient city of Nemo's Landing were(and still do) claiming to be the 
indigenous people of Aurigae (or more indigenous than anyone else by 2000 
years or so).  The Union of Senled, an emerging military power claimed 
that this was not true and that the Nemon region actually is part of some 
Kingdom of Senled that did indeed exsist about 120 yrs ago.  The evidence 
collected by the surveys was suggesting that the Nemons have been there 
at least 1000 yrs or more.  The computer core fragments that were being 
analyzed by Dr Eco appeared to be Imperial.  Furthermore there are 
numerous references to people who called themselves Nemons who had been 
there hundreds of years or more by that time.  Was the Arcology the 
remnants of an Imperial facility on Aurigae?  Are the Nemons Solomani 
settlers from the second Imperium or even Before? How long have they been 
on Aurigae?  If they are proven to be indigenous what does this mean?  
Will the Confederation use this as an excuse to weaken the emerging Union 
of Senled? Probably!!

Assisting Dr Eco in his investigations were his brother and Sister-in-Law
Gellek Adan, and Giselle Adan.  Their young daughter Amura back home in 
junior academy on Arizona Dawn.  While Dr Eco was ashore at the 
University of Ayken analyzing some new fragments a mysterious explosion 
ripped through the Aurigae Explorer while it was on another survey 
operation.  Going down in less than two minutes all aboard were drowned.  
Several bodies were never recovered including those of Max's brother and 
sister in law.  Dr Eco went to Enope to raise his neice Amura for 
his dead brother.  Years later he returned to Aurigae.  Follow up surveys 
confirmed the wreckage of the doomed ship.  Dr Eco himself dived on the 
wreckage in shallow water...something wasnt right about the 
wreckage....sabotage?  When he returned to the University he found 
his office ransacked.  His samples and artifacts gone, his data stores 
wiped.  Two days later the Union of Senled invaded the Nemon Province.  
One attempt on his life encouraged Dr Eco to leave Aurigae, which he did 
traveling to Arizona Dawn where he was recruited by the Vega Group a 
Unified Planetary Sphere govt ageny.  Here he was put on a team that was 
involoved in the top secret investigation of the Gamma Project.  His 
prior experience with biological electronic/photonic interfacing being 
directed related to ambitous and unethical project. Dr Eco makes 
infrequent contact with his niece Amura Adan who is in charge of the 
corporate Action Team for NeoSol Systems Company.

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gotta move to another computer....

Tariq

"Ive havent done anything the god of cybernetics wouldnt forgive me for" 



------------------------------

Bundle: 621
Archive-Message-Number: 7793
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 19:05:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: John V Banagan <jbanagan@uclink2.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Top Laser


Seems GDW is prmoting their Brilliant Lances game by having a 
competition; best Raider and best Planetary Defense Vessel starship 
design, since this is this summer's topic at during the summer covention 
season. If any one is interested, they can get more info from:

GDW.SUPPORT@GENIE.GEIS.COM

Also, there's a best star captain slot too.

John

------------------------------

Bundle: 621
Archive-Message-Number: 7794
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 19:12:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: John V Banagan <jbanagan@uclink2.berkeley.edu>
Subject: Reformation Coalition


Is the Reformation Coalition Equipment Guide out (ref #0310, $14.00, 120 
pages).

John

------------------------------

Bundle: 621
Archive-Message-Number: 7795
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 22:12:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Subject: Re:Arizona Dawn Info Services

From: spstmr@adudxx1.adu.edu
To: Seekers of Info
Re: Let me introduce myself
Time: 22:15.34 Day 147,1201 Imperial
Greetings Fellow DawnNet Users
You can call me Pierre
I will be using Tariq's account with his knowledge to provide information 
that I have acquired through various sources.  Hopefully you will find 
this useful or at least interesting.  Please direct all inquiries 
regarding Arizona Dawn Info Service and NeoSol subsector Info News 
Service to Pierre at this address.

I have uncovered some information about the Gamma Project of which you 
have seen previous references to. 

Apparently the original project initiated on Arizona Dawn 20 yrs or so 
ago was officially closed down by the Federation Government after certain 
ethical and scientific questions were raised.  It now appears that some 
individuals in government, the military and private sector sustained the 
project clandestinely.  When the Unified Sphere was chartered and got 
going the Vega Group, a Union Investigated Service discovered evidence of 
the projects continued exsistence and even evidence that it had 
progressed to human experimentation.

The Gist of the Gamma project is this...
It has long been thought that electronic and photonic components could be 
used to enhance human physical abilities.  This is the well known field 
of cybernetics.  More contreversial is the idea of enhancing human mental 
abilities by directly interfacing the human brain with a processor.  The 
initial Gamma project involved experiments in this field.  It now appears 
that the renewed Gamma project took even this radical idea a step or two 
further.  Its supporters suggested that based on the idea of a computer 
or processor that alters its physical structure according to changes in 
its virtual structure, it could be possible to build a semi-organic 
processer based upon neurological models that would exhibit similar 
performance or behavior.  Much still not known about both the virtual and 
physical structure of the brain it was suggested that an initially semi 
organic yet artificial processer could be devloped (grown?) that could 
interface with the brain in a way no one had previously conceived of.  It 
appears that the supporters just started to see if they could do it 
without thinking if they should or the consequences.  Some critics have 
called the idea a sort of semi-organics computer virus that has the 
cability to infect the human mind.  Consequences....multiplied effeciency 
for other Cybernetic enhancements.  Improved interface with external 
processors, etc.

It appears as one of the more heinous facets of the entire renewed Gamma 
Project that human beings were KIDNAPPED from frontier worlds and less 
developed regions on worlds loosely bound to the then NeoSol Confedertion 
to be used as test subjects...many of these tests failed...I do not know 
what became of those subjects.  Information that Ive collected showed 
that a Raid by a SPACR force somewhere on the frontier shut down the 
project but quite a bit remains unclear about the whole thing.  It is 
rumored that there are some big names involved in this.  I believe that 
the Dawn Foundation and the Vega Group are pursuing the continued 
investigation.  When I obtain more information I will pass it to you.  

I have come across an internal paper written by a Major in the 
Unification Marines that may prove insightful into the philosophy of the 
Corps as well as explain its developmental philosophy before and after 
the Charter.

Thank you for your attention 

Pierre



------------------------------

Bundle: 621
Archive-Message-Number: 7796
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 21:50:05 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: Xboat Errata?/RCEG Musings

more on the _Dinimbue_ xboat design....

I just realized that I subconsciously neglected to stress the
interior of the hull for acceleration.  Obviously, it shouldn't be
necessary in this design, but if you retrofit a manuver drive of
some sort into the thing, you should consider it.

on RCEG review, musings....

I just realized, if grav belts typically move around by propellor,
and contragrav only reduces a 1G field to 0.01 G, what happens
on a vaccuum world -- do you float down like a feather?  You can't
fly to high altitude either.  Your velocity varies with density of 
atmosphere.  Yuck.  I *really* miss the old grav modules.

The _Pyrrhus_ "grav tank" has been identified as the so-called
grav tank in the TNE rulebook, and has a virtually identical 
silhouette to vehicle #11, "Striker Grav Tank, TL9" in DGP's
_101 Vehicles_.  I knew I saw it somewhere.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Bundle: 621
Archive-Message-Number: 7797
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 22:56:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Subject: Re:Magnum Rifle

All I Wanted was a compact, heavy weapon that fires a glowing round that 
makes alot of light and noise and a big hole,....thats all I wanted!

But I agree with everything, everyone said I think the Idea of the Plasma 
shotgun is a helluva one.  Scattering plasma out it a cone after 20m, 
that would be a terrifying special effect.

Tariq



------------------------------

Bundle: 621
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------------------------------

Bundle: 621
Archive-Message-Number: 7805
From: gsw@aloft.att.com (gerald.s.williams)
Date: Fri, 27 May 94 11:59:56 EDT
Subject: Grenadier miniatures

Glenn, Steve:

I have both the Adventurers (1002?) and Alien Animals (1003?)
miniatures sets from Grenadier, which I'd be willing to part
with.

Both are in their original boxes, with the included adventures
and all.  They were in nearly perfect condition before I moved;
I just checked them this morning:

o all figures are unpainted
o Alien Animals is in really good shape
o Adventurers has a figure which broke off of its base (should
  be easily repairable) and includes a "bonus" airlock piece

    ,-----------------.
    |Gerald S Williams|
    |gsw@aloft.att.com|
    |  (610)712-7237  |
    `-----------------'

      _  |     ____/    _  |
     /   /    /        /   /
    /   /  ____ |     ____/
   /   /        /    /
______/  ______/  __/

 AT&T DSP tools development


------------------------------

Bundle: 621
Archive-Message-Number: 7806
Subject: ADMIN: PLEASE RE-SEND
Reply-To: jamesp@sp-eug.com (James T Perkins)
Date: Fri, 27 May 94 10:32:54 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@sp-eug.com>


If you sent something to traveller-request or xboat-request in the last
two days, please resend it. Problems at UWO (which should be fixed for
now, and will be fixed for good tommorrow, Dan says) have resulted in me
getting many totally contentless messages from a whole slew of you out
there.

Thanks!

James

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 29 May 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #622: Msgs 7807-7814 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun May 29 22:00:04 EDT 1994
Reply-To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 May 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #622: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 622  7807 27-May-1994 Steven M Bonnev  TNE Xboat Design (retry) << I tried to 
 622  7808 27-May-1994 "Tariq M. Rashi  Re:Magnum Rifle << Youre right, a jam w
 622  7809 27-May-1994 KenHagler@aol.c  ship classifications << In answer to th
 622  7810 28-May-1994 rancke@diku.dk   Glisten vs. the Ihatei of Doom << Steve
 622  7811 27-May-1994 David Johnson    All: Sword Worlds and Technology << Gen
 622  7812 28-May-1994 scs@vectis.demo  Non-humans in Traveller << One of the t
 622  7813 28-May-1994 Steven Gott      Regency Military << The organization of
 622  7814 29-May-1994 Grant Sinclair   Battle of the Fleets << In the "discuss

------------------------------

Bundle: 622
Archive-Message-Number: 7807
Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 16:16:17 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: TNE Xboat Design (retry)

I tried to post this once, but it didn't show up.  So here we
go again:  what with all the recent High Guard designs posted
here, I felt like doing a ship design.  But since I haven't
seen a lot of TNE designs here yet, I thought I'd post one
with the spirit of CT -- the lowly xboat.

(As noted in another message, this design has no internal structure
 stressed for acceleration, like most designs in FFS/BL require.
 If you add a 1G drive, this needs to be added.  This ship was
 never intended to need to maneuver much.)


_Dinimbue_-class EXPRESS BOAT (XBOAT)


GENERAL
  Displacement:  20 tons     Hull Armor:  10
  Length:         8 meters   Volume:     280 cu. meters
  Target Size:   VS          Tech Level:  13
  Config'n.:     Sphere SL   Price:   MCr 58.12 (MCr 46.50 in qty.)
  Mass (Loaded/Empty): 126.259/121.353 metric tonnes
  
ENGINEERING
  Power Plant:       16 MW Fusion (8 MW/hit), 1 month duration
  Jump Performance:  4 (70 kL fuel)
  G-Rating:          nil
  Maint:             2
  
ELECTRONICS
  Computer:  6 x TL13Fb (0.9 MW ea.)
  Commo:     3 x 1000 AU maser (infinite, 0.6 MW)
             1 x   30 Mm radio (1 hex, 1.0 MW)
  Sensors:   PEMS fixed array 30 Mm (1 hex, 0.03 MW)
             AEMS 3000 km (0 hex; use long range, 8.0 MW)
  Controls:  2 x workstations
  
ACCOMODATIONS
  Life Support:   Extended (0.056 MW)
                  Artificial Grav (4G, 1.4 MW) 
  Crew:           1 (1 x Maneuver)
  Accomodations:  1 x Lg Stateroom
  Cargo:          400 kg
  Airlocks:       1
  
SYSTEMS
  JD 1H; LSR 1H; PP (4h); LS (4h); ELS (2h); Others (1h)
  
DAMAGE TABLES:
  AREA (1d20)  SURFACE       INT. EXPLOSION
  1            1-4: Ant.     Electronics
  2-5          1-6: Ant.     Electronics
  6            1-3: Airlock  1-4: Qtrs.; 5-19: Elec.; 20: Cargo
  7-9                        1-4: Qtrs.; 5-20: Elec.
  10-11                      1-15: Elec.; 16-20 Fuel
  12-15                      1-14: Elec.; 15-20 Fuel
  16-19                      1-5: Engrg.; 6-20: Fuel
  20                         1-8: Engrg.; 9-20: Fuel
  
The _Dinimbue_-class express boat, or "xboat", has been used by the
IISS Communications Office for centuries as one of the workhorses of
the Imperial communications network.  Optimized for their job, the 
ships are unsuited for almost any task besides carrying electronic
xmail.  The ship carries extensive databanks and a powerful and 
triply backed-up maser communicator.  Only one communicator is
meant to be powered at a time; the radio is for emergencies and
xboat tender retrieval operations only.  The class is named after
the professor at the University of Sylea who, in 624, designed the
infamous "Poni Express" insignia which has since adorned all IISS 
Communications Office ships and crews.

DESIGNER'S NOTES:  This is an attempt to capture the spirit of
the old CT xboat design using the FF&S/Brilliant Lances ship design
rules.  Since any size ship may now carry jump drives, the ship
was simply reduced in size by a factor of five, to the minimum
possible size.  The ship is state-of-the-art for the late 600s
Imperial, when the xboat net was started.  To accurately reflect
the high proportion of fuel to cargo, those hits have been spelled
out explicitly in the damage table rather than using the standard
"Hold" result.  (Typical practice in my designs...a little more
realistic.)  Since the sensors are a bit sub-par (which seems to
be typical of GDW ships like this), I assume that the tender has a 
beacon which makes it easy for the xboat to center its' commaser.
The old "80% for quantity purchase of class ships discount" is applied
in parentheses under price.  

Like the classic xboat, it's a sitting duck.  The ironic thing is,
considering the size of this craft, it really *does* deserve the
title "boat" instead of the "ship" any jump vessel rightly deserves.

   Steve Bonneville
   <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Bundle: 622
Archive-Message-Number: 7808
Date: Fri, 27 May 1994 17:41:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Subject: Re:Magnum Rifle

Youre right, a jam would be catastrophic, it really is not a practical 
round however I was trying to keep in mind that this is science FICTION 
and I was mainly looking for special effects as well as a justification 
for choosing the weapon over an M-16A1....I realize that It is important 
to maintain consistency within the rules but I would really love it if 
someone can come up with a weapon that produces the desired dramatic 
effect yet is still relatively compact.  A plasma carbine or pistol, Even 
if you could build it, in the current sequence it would have a short 
range of a few meters and about the same damage as a .45 and cost a 
helluva lot more.  Maybe I should just suck it up and realize that the 
PC, NPC should chose between his slug pistol or a laser pistol as his/her 
sidearm...I think that I will do this.  Anyway a laser pistol can have a 
pretty high damage for a sidearm and only rigid armor is gonna stop it.  
Range is of course only human physiologically limited.  Im gonna whip put 
my FFS over the weekend and see if a gauss pistol gets up there.

I should point out however that a head shot from a tl 8 9mm 2D6 pistol has a 
30% of instantly killing a PC with a Con of 6.  If the shooter is a short 
range (say 8m) and has a slug pistol asset of say 7(4) =11
He has a 16/20 or 80% chance of success. (Average Shot, 17-20 Auto miss)
Furthermore there is a 11/20 (55%) chance of outstanding success doubling 
the average damage of 7 to 14.  The product of these two probabilities is 
44%  Now there is a 14/20 (70%) chance that a D20 will roll under the damage
of 14 thereby doubling the damage again to 28 which is more than twice 
the PC head hit points (2 x Con).  The net prob is 0.8 * 0.55 * 0.7 = 0.3  
Make this a 3-D6 pistol and the percentage goes up I believe to 49%

BUT
It could be that my reasoning is flawed..but Im fairly sure it isnt as 
far as the net probability is concerned

My interpretation of the rules is flawed in that you do not cumatively 
multiply damage, the second doubling only adds the double the original 
damage but again Im pretty sure my interpretation is correct.  This 
certainly produces a when it rains it pours effect.  The round that gets 
you really gets you!

Thats more than enough from me

Tariq
Adio




------------------------------

Bundle: 622
Archive-Message-Number: 7809
From: KenHagler@aol.com
Date: Fri, 27 May 94 20:20:58 EDT
Subject: ship classifications

In answer to the recent question about how ship types are classified, the
Imperial ship classifications appear to be somewhat arbitrary. Here's a
description of the system I used for the Neubayern Federation Navy:

Battleship--  A ship designed to pulverize any other ship, with heavy bay
armament and a big spinal mount. 100,000+ tons.

Battlecruiser--  A ship midway between a battleship and a cruiser, basically
the smallest ship that could still go up against a battleship and not
necessarily be committing suicide. :-) 50,000-100,000 tons.

Strike Cruiser--  A classification invented because I had a "heavy cruiser"
design with more firepower than the old battlecruiser, and I thought that
sounded odd. Eventually, it actually developed a real meaning--a cruiser
designed more for battles than for other cruiser duties. 40,000-50,000 tons.

Heavy Cruiser--  An all-purpose ship that could serve either as a powerful
battle unit, as a patrol unit, or as anything else I came up with. Many of
them served as remarkably well-armed hospital ships. :-)  30,000-40,000 tons.

Light Cruiser/Raiding Cruiser--  Different names for the same thing, this was
a cruiser that specialized in commerce-raiding and long-range strikes at an
enemy's rear area. The CL/CR bit rose from the fact that the Alliance needed
a "Raiding Cruiser," which I designed, but the NFN officially disapproved of
raiding (despite wanting the means to do it). 20,000-30,000 tons.

Destroyer--  A ship designed for escort and fire support duty. It differed
from a cruiser primarily in the lack of a spinal mount and significant troop
contingent. 10,000-20,000 tons.

Fleet Escort--  A ship that was designed as a TL12 copy of the Imperial _P.F.
Sloan_ class. I was never very impressed with these (despite their adequate
performance), probably because of their somewhat poorly thought-out origin.
5,000-10,000 tons.

Fleet Tender--  A ship designed to carry battle riders. 100,000+ tons.

Fleet Carrier--  A ship designed to carry fighters for offensive action in
special Heavy Carrier Squadrons. 100,000+ tons.

Carrier--  A ship designed to carry fighters for defensive action
accompanying other types of squadrons. Note that despite the intention, there
wasn't a real division of the carrier roles in practice, and the smaller type
got written off as a bad idea. 50,000-100,000 tons.

Heavy Rider--  A battle rider built to carry a spinal mount, with no other
offensive weapons. 20,000 tons.

Light Rider--  A battle rider built to carry offensive bay weapons, and
nothing else. 10,000 tons.

Fast Patrol Boat--  A sort of "super fighter" built around a single 100-ton
bay. It was an experimental design that was supposed to operate just like a
really big, really tough fighter.

Fighter--  All of these were originally meant to engage enemy capital ships,
but it didn't work this way. Only the 90-ton FA-5 Krait was up to fighting
ships with an realistic chance of success. The Krait was also being tested as
a glorified point defence system for engaging incoming missiles.

                        Kenneth G. Hagler
 _________________________________________________________________
|            kenhagler@aol.com           |  My insurance company  |
|             (619) 251-0054             |    is Beretta U.S.A.   |
|   PGP 2.3 key available on request     |                        |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   ...study of the military arts will make one who is naturally  |
|   clever more so and one who is born somewhat dull rather less  |
|   so.     --Daidoji Yuzan Shigesuke, _Budo Shoshinshu_          |
|_________________________________________________________________|


------------------------------

Bundle: 622
Archive-Message-Number: 7810
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Glisten vs. the Ihatei of Doom
Date: Sat, 28 May 1994 03:24:11 +0100 (METDST)

Steve Charlton:
>OK, Glisten... A couple of people were surprised that Glisten with its
>umpteen billions of population and lots of SDBs would have fallen
>to the Ihatei.  

Wrong verb. Incredulous is the one you're looking for.

>I imagine the Aslan did not really invade Glisten so much
>as capture all of the surrounding agricultural worlds.  I'm sure Glisten
>had hydroponics and carniculture plants as internal food sources, but
>there would have been some form of dependence on supplemental outside
>food sources.  Basically, reprocessed algae might keep you
>alive, but probably would not keep you overly happy or healthy.  The
>Ihatei probably waited a few months and then suggested a small change
>in alliegence in exchange for some non-artificial food.  The humans would
>get to stay alive, retain their property and eat a good meal, while the Aslan
>would gain a high-tech industrial base in the Spinward Marches.
> 
>What do you think, sirs?
 
1) The economics of building and running starships as set forth in various 
   CT and MegaT products makes it impossible for a high-population world to 
   base it's food supply on imports; the available trade fleet is simply not 
   big enough to import a significant amount of food. (A low or medium 
   population world can do it if it relies on the trade fleet of a nearby 
   high-population world). (Possiby things have changed with TNE, but if so 
   I'd like to see some figures.) Glisten MUST produce nearly all of it's
   own food (And why do you think that a TL 15 society will have to make
   do with processed algae?)

2) History has shown that people can stand quite a long siege on low rations. 
   Even if Glisten imported, say, 10% of it's food, and even if those 10% 
   meant the difference between just getting by and slow starvation, Glisten 
   could hold out for a long time. Time enough for the Imperium to free the 
   aforementioned food-supplying worlds. And, of course, Glisten could
   always import food from worlds farther away; it would cost more, but 
   Glisten is one of the four richest systems in the Spinward Marches. Not
   to mention one of the four most important systems to the Imperial Navy.

3) Glisten is 20-30 parsec from the nearest substantial Aslan world. It
   will be incredible easy for the Imperium to disrupt their supply lines.

4) Aslan ihatei do not have the strength to stand angainst even a modest
   Imperial fleet. Split up and spread out across all these agricultural
   worlds they become even easier to deal with.

[About the strength of Aslan ihatei: It cost money to outfit ihatei fleets, 
money that the clan must deduct from it's naval budget. Outfit too many 
and you friendly neighbouring rival clan will jump your clan holdings at 
home. Ihatei fleets consist of roughly 50% fighting ships and 50% transport 
ships (the cost of their scout ships is negligible in comparison to the other
two ship types). This cuts their fighting strength in half. Ihatei fleets 
are outfitted with obsolescent clan vessels, making the typical ihatei 
fleet TL 12 and jump-3, worse even than Imperial subsector forces, let 
alone Imperial regulars. Strategically there runs a broad starless gap of 
more than 3 parsecs' width through the Trojan Reach from the Great Rift to 
Beyond. Only in two places can jump-3 ships cross this gap without using 
drop tanks or deep space fuel depots. Given a half-decent spy network a
reasonably competent Imperial admiral coud garrison the two choke points
and patrol the rest of the far side to seriously hinder the buildup of drop 
tanks and the laying of fuel depots. Politically the ihatei come from 29
major and scores of minor clans. The biggest clan can hardly represent more
than 5% of the total Aslan strength. If they act independently their fleets
will be small enough to be threathened even by individual Imperial squadrons,
and if they cooperate they have to work out whose ships goes where in any
fleet action (What clan admiral will consent to having his ships blown up to 
destroy an Imperial fleet so that the othert clans can reap the reward?)]

(Then there's the problem of defending your wives and cubs once you've
managed to settle them somewhere. Remember the world where all the humans 
died of a mysterious disease which didn't bother the Aslans? Yeah, right!
If that really happened that world would be glowing in the dark a few
months later).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Bundle: 622
Archive-Message-Number: 7811
Date: Fri, 27 May 94 20:26:40 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: All: Sword Worlds and Technology

Gentlesophonts:

First, please excuse me if I'm being redundant.  I'm having some mail
problems and have yet to see TML msgs 7773-7789 from Thursday night.

Hans Rancke <rancke@diku.dk> writes:

> But according to the only _Traveller_ rules we have on the subject (_TCS_)
> technology _dosn't_ make that much difference.

Uncle!  I don't have *TCS* so I can't discuss it.  We've fallen over into
the discussion with Cynthia and Steve about *TCS* and *HG* vs. *5FW* and
*RS*.

> >has been that I can't see what *causes* these `techno-economic' cycles
> >(since we've agreed they have no `real world' parallel) 
> 
> We don't agree on that. We have plenty of real world parallels for economic
> cycles.

Yes, I know.  This is where we agree.  There are Real World examples of
*economic* cycles, but . . .

> economic instability _should_ result in TL instability. 

Why?  This is what I'm having difficulty with.  You realize just *one* 
single example of a world that went *down* in TL and then back up would
make your case?  So far, I haven't seen such an example.

> not so sure we don't have any examples of that. Didn't some farmers put
> their cars in the barn and go back to the horse waggon during the Great
> Depression?).

I think you're confusing the *use* of technology with the ability to
*produce* technology.  I think this figures in the historical example of
Regina that you keep using.  (I'll get to that in a bit.)  Nevertheless,
I'll give you this Depression-era `techno-economic' cycle if you'll grant
me that the *keiritsu* are a good example of feudal technocracy.

> Make that steamships instead and you have a better analogy, since the ships
> of space don't need any highways. 

Okay, a poor analogy but you get my point.  

> Even if you can't produce boiler plates
> you may still be able to rivet them together when they come apart.

But I wouldn't call that capability the same as the tech level of the folks
that built the boiler.  Again, I think you're confusing use with the
ability to produce.  Didn't we already settle on that a long time ago?
("That" being the idea that TL measures the ability to *produce* a certain
level of technology rather than the mere use or presence of it.)

> If different sources disagree we have to choose between them, and in most 
> cases I'd be inclined to choose the role-playing source over the board
> game source.

This is a good rationale.  I can accept this, but . . .

> I'd be happier if we could reconcile them, but it's just not
> possible. _TCS_ gives much bigger fleets than is present in 5FW.

*TCS* *also* gives much bigger fleets than the MegaTraveller *Rebellion
Sourcebook*, another role-playing *and* later-occurring source.  Since *5FW*
and *RS* seem to be somewhat in agreement, one might make the case for
accepting them over *TCS* and *HG*.  I'm not necessarily proposing this,
I'm just trying to point out that the choice isn't as clear to me as
it seems to be to others.

> >I think this `liberation' issue is merely a matter of when Piper was 
> >writing (early 60's) versus when GDW was creating Traveller (late 70's).
> 
> I think so too, but what's that got to do with it? It _is_ a pretty
> significant difference between the two societies.

I don't think it's appropriate to judge works outside the era they were
created.  My point is that if Piper had been writing in the late '70s,
I doubt this particular difference would exist, just as it was `impossible'
for the folks at GDW to create an `unenlightened' Sword Worlds in 1978.

> thereby denying some women the chance to fulfill their potential (and
> some men too, btw.) 

This is a very insightful point but, alas, we're not on alt.soc.conteporary.
roles.  :-)

> On top of that women have a safety valve in that they are accepted in 
> 'male' roles provided they adopt 'male' behaviour. Males are never
> accepted in 'female' roles.

But isn't this information no more `reliable' than early `official' data
that painted the Zhos as `mind-sucking totalitarians'?  We have to accept
that these sorts of observations reflect the bias of whatever Imperial
`observer' provided the information.  GDW has established a tradition of
painting such sources as being `biased' to one degree or another.  That's
always been one of the appeals of Traveller to me.  Every point of view
is ambiguous - no simplistic `chaotic good' templates here!

> I think there's quite some difference.

Okay, let's a gree to disagree.  This whole Piper bit is an obscure tangent
anyway.  (But I'll bet some TML'ers are out combing the shelves of used
book stores for Piper works!)

> I despair of explaining those cycles any better than by the sentence 'Economy 
> can (and often does) fluctuate'. 

I *get* the *economic* fluctuation, what I don't get is how *technological*
ability gets tied to it!  Beside your Depression-era example (which 
represents the most serious economic cycle ever *and* confuses use with
ablity to produce) I can't think of any other.

> Except to explain why it took Gram 14 centuries to go from TL 12 to TL 11.
> This _could_ be explained by a slow, steady, uneventful
> economic rise over the centuries with, say, a TL per two centuries. Or
> it could be an economic roller-coaster that pulls one world two steps
> back every time it get one step ahead.

Basic scientific method:  my explanation of "slow, steady, uneventful"
growth explains the observable facts without any need of your mysterious
cycles.  On the other hand, just *one* example of a *down-turn* would make
your case.  So far, it hasn't been made.  (And things like the Long Night
or the Viral Collapse don't count!)

> Regina was settled in 75. It 
> was TL 10 in 1105. It was TL 11 or 12 in 1120, wasn't it?
> Why did Regina gain one
> or no TLs in 10 centuries and one more in 15 years?

Okay, here's where I think you're confusing *use* with *ability to produce*.
The comment above suggests to me that you're assuming Regina was at TL 10
in 75.  How could it possibly be at the time it was settled?  There were
no factories, no maintenance facilities, no *anything*!  The only
technological capability in the system was on the settlement ship(s).
Maybe these were at TL 7 or something but it must have been *decades*
(if not longer) before any starships were being built on Regina.

Of course, this all goes to pieces if you don't accept the `ability to
produce' definition for TL.  The problem with `use' is that every world
on the map becomes *at least* TL 9 every time a starship lands!

> I'm beginning to see where you're going wrong.

Well, at least we've found something to agree upon again.  :-)

> Where did you get that definition? I mean, if you made it up yourself you're
> begging the question.

Bingo!  You've caught me.  This is how I understand a feudal technocracy
from reading Piper.  Since I believe the GDW Sword Worlds have a great deal
in common with Piper's I accept that GDW must have lifted the idea of a
feudal technocracy from Piper.

> I admit that I'm vague about just how a feudal
> technocracy works, but isn't that because it's a term GDW made up (Or lifted
> from some SF book?)? Or is there some dictionary definition of the term?

Not that I have come across.

> Have there ever been a formal feudal technocracy in Real Life?

Yes, I think the Japanese *keiritsu* (which is not a `corporate government'
but I'll get to that in a bit) is a feudal technocracy.
 
> In a feudal society you get to be king because you have the support of the
> great lords. In theory you gets that support because you own the land and
> lend it to the great lords in return for their sworn support (In practice
> the great lords often control the land whatever the King wants).
> 
> By analogy a feudal technocracy is one where the King theoretically owns
> all the industry (the source of power analogous to land in a feudal
> society) and lend it out in exchange for support. In practice many great
> lords propably control their 'fiefs' whatever the King wants.

This is good, but you're about to confuse *owning* the means of production
with *managing* an operation, i.e. a corporate government.

> What you are describing is a corporate government, not a feudal one. In a
> feudal government power (in this case, ownership of shares) flows from the 
> top to the bottom. What you describe is power flowing from the bottom (the 
> individual shares) to the top.

A corporate government is a specialized form of autocracy.  In a corporate
government everyone involved is an *employee* of the person(s) in charge.
They have no choice but to follow the dictates of the manager or leave
the company.  Maybe I led you astray by describing the `king' in a feudal
technocracy as a `CEO'.  This was inaccurate and I apologize.  The `king'
is like the Chairman of the Board of Directors (often also the CEO).  As
such she is repsonsible for seeing that the will of the shareholders is
carried out.

In a corporate government the CEO does not have to listen to the Vice
Presidents or other officers of the company -  she gives the orders and
they carry them out.  In a feudal technocracy, the Chairman ignores
the voices of the other Directors (who represent blocs of shareholders)
at her peril.  When things get tough, the directors *remove* the Chairman
and find a replacement.  In the corprate model, when things get tough
for an Executive Vice President, she finds another job (or jumps out
a window).

In a feudal technocracy the `king' owns the largest bloc of shares of
*everything* but he doesn't necessarily own everything.  If no one owns a
controlling bloc you get balkanization, like Joyeuse.  The `king' may
own everything, may own a majority of shares, or may own a plurality of
shares (the biggest bloc but not a majority).  `Fief' holders under the
`king' will have stronger positions (and more independence) as the `king'
owns less of the total holdings.

A good modern example outside the *keiritsu* would be the influence of
pension fund managers on corporate America today.  Because pension funds
often hold huge blocs of stock in a corporation they are able to influence
the policies and practices of the corporation.  They are, in effect, the
`fiefholders' of the Chairman or `king' who may still control the largest
bloc of shares but is no where near having a majority holding.

The key element here is that in a feudal technocracy the economic influence
of shareholders translates directly into politcal power.

> Granted, but the only way you can get that influence is if the king of
> Gram allows you to buy that controlling interest.

No, only if he owns everything.  If he only owns a plurality or majority
his `barons' can sell their shares at will.

> The king theoretically _owns_ those shares and
> what you pay for must be the right to benefit from them. And one of the
> things you must pay with is the promise to support him.

Right, and if King Harald buys an interest in Gram's holdings he becomes
a player in the political system there.  He may choose to honor his
`bond' to King Angus (sorry, I'm sticking with Piper) or he may not.  My
point is that since, under my world view, Sacnoth is the strongest 
economic power, Harald will one day triumph over Angus.  Unless of course
Angus has managed to control all the shares on Gram, in which case Gram
becomes an autocracy rather than a feudal technocracy.  (And then Harald
just uses his higher TL military to defeat Angus!)

> >Since, at TL 12, I'm clearly the strongest economic power
> 
> Fallacy. See above.

I'll give you this is you give me an example of a downward turn in your
cycles, otherwise I'm sticking with the scientific method.  :-)

> Perhaps our first step should be to define just what a feudal
> technocracy is and how it works.

I think I've made a decent start.

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 622
Archive-Message-Number: 7812
Date: Sat, 28 May 1994 16:39:28 GMT0BST1,M3.4.0/02:00,M10.4.0/02:00
From: scs@vectis.demon.co.uk
Reply-To: scs@vectis.demon.co.uk
Subject: Non-humans in Traveller

One of the things which makes SF for me is Non-Humans. Despite the
number of pre-generated non-human races in Traveller (Vargr, Droyne,
Hivers, K'kree, Aslan) there seems to be no establised method of
rolling your own. Do the members of the list have any hints, tips or
suggestions on how to create a believable non-human race, for use as
either PCs or NPCs? Are there any favourites out there from the
annals of Traveller history?

P.S. Has anyone else noticed the similarities between the RCES
Marines as portrayed in Smash & Grab and the MI from Heinlein's
Starship Troopers?

P.P.S. Being a relative newcomer to the list, I would value the
input of those who chose to leave the list when TNE was launched, so
I vote for the 'temporary two lists' idea. (I have CT, MT and TNE.)

Stuart.


- ----------------------------------------------------------
scs@vectis.demon.co.uk
Stuart C. Squibb
Newport, Isle of Wight, England, U.K.

"When all else fails, do it yourself." - Lefler's Law #17


------------------------------

Bundle: 622
Archive-Message-Number: 7813
Date: Sat, 28 May 1994 23:59:49 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steven Gott <sgott@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Regency Military

The organization of the military forces of the regency need to make 
sense in light of the Regency's recent history.  This means that military 
force designs will have been strongly influenced by the Rebellion, the 
Black War and by VIRUS.  


Lets look at these historical events in reverse order.  VIRUS is a major 
problem for the Regency.  Every peice of electronics needs to be 
reconsidered.  All of the high tech logistical and staff assistance computers
in the Regency's Military need to be redesigned and made as VIRUS resistant as
possible.  There might even be a trend in the Regency's military to look for 
low tech solutions to military requirements.  A FN-FAL has no electronic parts
to host a VIRUS egg, for example.  

The Black war poses some very challenging problems for the Regency.  
Having to deal with a raider jumping in at the 100 diameter limit, 
blasting at full accelleration to the target, dumping its bombload of 100 
Megaton Nukes, and coasting out to the 100 diameter limit to jump away is 
a frightening threat.  Vampire vessels can exercise this same tactic so 
keeping a defense for this sort of attack is still required in the new era.

The rebellion suggests that the Regency should design a "Military with a 
conscious".  Officers should be expected to exercise some judment on 
following orders.  A ship captain assigned to carpet bomb an orphanage 
should be expected to use his or her conscious to conclude that this is a 
wastefull unmilitary activity and that this order should be refused.

I'm just scratching the surface here.  I think that any military force 
designed for the Regency will be shaped by its history  and the history 
of its neighbors.  It will also be shaped by the perceived needs of the 
Regency.  To design a military for the Regency requires that we identify 
these needs and find possible solutions for them.  I realise that this is 
not as glamourous as deciding how many MBT's per platoon, but by building 
a firm foundation first we will save ourselves a great deal of pain later on.

goodnight,

Steven Gott
Seattle, WA

------------------------------

Bundle: 622
Archive-Message-Number: 7814
From: Grant Sinclair <grant@cleese.apana.org.au>
Subject: Battle of the Fleets
Date: Sun, 29 May 1994 21:34:22 +1523847 (CST)

In the "discussion" ("flames" is starting to be a better word) of fleet 
sizes, bear in mind that you are talking about two different sets of 
numbers.  TCS has budgets based on population and governments, and this 
figure covers _everything_.  The fleet sizes in Rebellion Sourcebook and 
elsewhere are _not_ everything.
 
The figures in Rebellion Sourcebook only include cruisers, carriers, 
battleships and some escorts; they omit entire squadrons like AssaultRons 
(which I think explains a good point that someone made about how all the 
invasion forces could be carried by the number given for ships available 
to Dulinor).  I would imagine that the figure would certainly only be 
operational ships, and so would exclude ships in mothballs or "ordinary".
 
The figures in Rebellion Sourcebook are internally inconsistent anyway.  
Even if you interpret the 1000 ships figure as being each for numbered 
and numbered reserve fleets, it still seems small; 16 minimum size 
numbered fleets of 50 ships is 800 ships, which leaves little leeway.  If 
you don't believe that the 1000 ships is each for numbered and numbered 
reserve fleets, it is even further out.
 
To further explain the apparent inconsistency, there is the maintenance 
overhead aspect of the TCS rules (10% for operational ships and 1% for 
ships in ordinary).  Both the economics of shipbuilding and published 
sources surely show that there would be many ships in ordinary.  I have 
not seen this taken into account in some of the discussions.
(Incidentally, does anyone know why these are so high? Operational 
civilian ships only need 0.1%).  
 
Anyway, if you take Glisten as an example, it has an annual military 
budget of about TCr4.  Even if it had the biggest yards in the galaxy, it 
could still only build TCr40 worth of operational ships, as maintenance 
of these would soak up the entire military budget.  In Fighting Ships of 
the Shattered Imperium (which I know is not the best source of designs in 
the world, but it is official), TCr40 doesn't buy all that many _big_ 
ships; Battleships and Dreadnoughts are commonly TCr1 or more.
 
Even when you add in the taxation income from the rest of the subsector, 
the figures do not grow by orders of magnitude (particularly if you 
reduce the value of the money by starport/TL), since Glisten dominates 
virtually every other world in the subsector.
 
Anyway, it looks to me that GDW have always been deliberately vague about 
definitions of numbers, to avoid apparent contradictions like this.  So 
you are all free to some extent to interpret the numbers how you like.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Grant Sinclair               The difference between a politician and a
grant@cleese.apana.org.au    snail is the snail leaves its slime behind
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 29 May 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #623: Msgs 7815-7815 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun May 29 22:00:04 EDT 1994
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Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 May 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #623: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 623  7815 29-May-1994 rancke@diku.dk   Economy, technology, and feudal technoc

------------------------------

Bundle: 623
Archive-Message-Number: 7815
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Economy, technology, and feudal technocracies
Date: Sun, 29 May 1994 18:12:29 +0100 (METDST)

David Johnson writes:
>First, please excuse me if I'm being redundant.  I'm having some mail
>problems and have yet to see TML msgs 7773-7789 from Thursday night.

I've had the same problem.

>Hans Rancke <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> 
>>But according to the only _Traveller_ rules we have on the subject (_TCS_)
>>technology _dosn't_ make that much difference.
> 
>Uncle!  I don't have *TCS* so I can't discuss it.  We've fallen over into
>the discussion with Cynthia and Steve about *TCS* and *HG* vs. *5FW* and
>*RS*.

Not quite. In your discussion with Cynthia and Steve you have two different
conditions (the different sizes of fleets) that is irreconcilable and
consequently the problem of which source to accept. In the economy question 
we have one condition set forth by one source and not mentioned in any 
other source. Since there is no contradiction I submit that we should go by
the one source we do have (Actually, we have two since _Striker_ gives
similar (though not identical) results. _Striker_ and _TCS_ are, however,
contemporary). The only known source we have on the effect of TLs on the
economy states that the difference of one TL on otherwise identical worlds
is that the higher TL planet's money is worth 5% more.

>>economic instability _should_ result in TL instability. 
> 
>Why? This is what I'm having difficulty with.

Is the difficulty with the fact that there are no examples, or is it the
very concept you can't accept? If the first there's not much I can do 
since I proposed them to explain somthing else. Since they are, therefor,
merely inferred I don't see how you can expect an example. If I had an
example I wouldn't have to infer it. If it's the concept, however, I shall
try to illustrate. Not that technological cycles must be, but merely that
they could be:

Example 1:
"I/S Hansen Motor" on Gram who builds jump-1 and -2 engines decides to
expand and builds an new assembly line in their factory for producing 
jump-3 engines. Gram now becomes TL 12 in space technology (by definition). 
"Sleipner Spring-motorer", the well-known jump engine manufacturer on
Sacnoth notes the subsequent drop in sales of jump engines to Gram and 
lowers the price on jump-3 engines. Baron Hansen decides that he can't afford
to fight this move and converts his jump-3 assembly line to make jump-2
engines. Gram is now, once again, TL 11. 

Example 2:
As before, but this time Hansen manages to get some other nobles to back
him and proceeds to sell jump-3 engines to all of Sleipner's former customers 
driving Sleipner off the market. Sacnoth is now TL 11 (in space tech).

(Btw. there's another, perfectly simple, explanation of how Gram could be
as strong as Sacnoth (Note that I don't agree that they need to be): Gram
could be solidly TL 11 in most areas and TL 12 in space technology while
Sacnoth was TL 12 in just enough parts to qualify for TL 12 status but of
only TL 10-11 in other, vital areas (Check _World Builder's Handbook_ for
details).) 

>You realize just *one* 
>single example of a world that went *down* in TL and then back up would
>make your case?  So far, I haven't seen such an example.

How many worlds do we have any historical data on? A mere handful. While an
example might prove my point, the absence dosen't disprove it (since I'm
merely trying to establish that it could happen).

>>not so sure we don't have any examples of that. Didn't some farmers put
>>their cars in the barn and go back to the horse waggon during the Great
>>Depression?).
> 
>I think you're confusing the *use* of technology with the ability to
>*produce* technology.  

No I don't. If the depression drove some people to abandon their cars, a
more severe depression could, conceivably, have driven almost everybody
to do so. If that happened, most car factories would close down and very
few new cars would be made (In fact, for a time you might have people 
using old cars that were no longer manufactured  -  a use TL _higher_ 
than the production TL). 

>I think this figures in the historical example of
>Regina that you keep using.  (I'll get to that in a bit.)  Nevertheless,
>I'll give you this Depression-era `techno-economic' cycle if you'll grant
>me that the *keiritsu* are a good example of feudal technocracy.

Can't do that since I still don't know exactly how the *keiritsu* work. I'll
accept that they form your definition of a feudal technology, but I suspect
that your definition is not the only possible one. Certainly your definition
is not that of a feudal system (though I acknowledge that compound words
sometimes take on a meaning quite different from any of it's components. I
would regard that as a bit of a cop-out, though. IMO a feudal technocracy
ought to be feudal in some way). 

>>Even if you can't produce boiler plates
>>you may still be able to rivet them together when they come apart.
> 
>But I wouldn't call that capability the same as the tech level of the folks
>that built the boiler.  

Neither did I. I said that the people who couldn't _build_ a boiler might,
nevertheless, be perfectly capable of repairing it. This was in connection
with being able to maintain higher-han-your-own-TL equipment, remember?

>Again, I think you're confusing use with the
>ability to produce.  Didn't we already settle on that a long time ago?
>("That" being the idea that TL measures the ability to *produce* a certain
>level of technology rather than the mere use or presence of it.)

I think so. At least, I heartily concur. TL _ought_ to indicate the ability 
to produce (unfortunately there are countless worlds with low population and 
high TL where that dosen't make sense. How can 10 men build a starship?).

>>If different sources disagree we have to choose between them, and in most 
>>cases I'd be inclined to choose the role-playing source over the board
>>game source.
> 
>This is a good rationale.  I can accept this, but . . .
> 
>>I'd be happier if we could reconcile them, but it's just not
>>possible. _TCS_ gives much bigger fleets than is present in 5FW.
> 
>*TCS* *also* gives much bigger fleets than the MegaTraveller *Rebellion
>Sourcebook*, another role-playing *and* later-occurring source.  Since *5FW*
>and *RS* seem to be somewhat in agreement, one might make the case for
>accepting them over *TCS* and *HG*.  I'm not necessarily proposing this,
>I'm just trying to point out that the choice isn't as clear to me as
>it seems to be to others.

Try comparing the _TCS_ naval expenditure of Cr 500 per citizen with the
real world (Double it to account for non-space forces too). A credit is
supposed to correspond to a US$. Now compute the taxes the average 
swordworlder would pay to support 42 200,000 T battleships  -  no, make 
that 500,000-tonners if you like. Compare that figure to the real world. 

>I don't think it's appropriate to judge works outside the era they were
>created.  My point is that if Piper had been writing in the late '70s,
>I doubt this particular difference would exist, just as it was `impossible'
>for the folks at GDW to create an `unenlightened' Sword Worlds in 1978.

Do you really think that no contemporary of Piper wrote about social
systems with more equal treatment of men and women than his Sword Worlds?
Or that TCS couldn't have gotten away with describing a minor, antagonistic
power as far more repressive than they did?

>>I despair of explaining those cycles any better than by the sentence 
>>'Economy can (and often does) fluctuate'. 
> 
>I *get* the *economic* fluctuation, what I don't get is how *technological*
>ability gets tied to it!  

Because if technology wasn't tied to economic features then most every
world in Charted Space would be TL 15! (Except those with religious or
philosophically induced limits.)

>Beside your Depression-era example (which 
>represents the most serious economic cycle ever *and* confuses use with
>ablity to produce) I can't think of any other.

Conceeded, but let me address that confusion of use and ability to produce.
I'm not confusing the two. But if something becomes too expensive to buy,
don't you think that it would shortly thereafter go out of production? So
if use decline sufficiently and does pick up again, the ability to produce
automatically disappears too. 

>>Except to explain why it took Gram 14 centuries to go from TL 12 to TL 11.
>>This _could_ be explained by a slow, steady, uneventful
>>economic rise over the centuries with, say, a TL per two centuries. Or
>>it could be an economic roller-coaster that pulls one world two steps
>>back every time it get one step ahead.
> 
>Basic scientific method:  my explanation of "slow, steady, uneventful"
>growth explains the observable facts without any need of your mysterious
>cycles. 

Except that they represent a stagnation of the economy that is quite
incredible to me. It's the 'slow' I object to. One TL in umpteen centuries
is not slow, it's moribund.

>>Regina was settled in 75. It 
>>was TL 10 in 1105. It was TL 11 or 12 in 1120, wasn't it?
>>Why did Regina gain one
>>or no TLs in 10 centuries and one more in 15 years?
> 
>Okay, here's where I think you're confusing *use* with *ability to produce*.
>The comment above suggests to me that you're assuming Regina was at TL 10
>in 75. 

True. I conceed that point.

>How could it possibly be at the time it was settled?  There were
>no factories, no maintenance facilities, no *anything*!  The only
>technological capability in the system was on the settlement ship(s).
>Maybe these were at TL 7 or something but it must have been *decades*
>(if not longer) before any starships were being built on Regina.

Right. I will give you those decades. I'll even make them centuries. So the
question becomes: Regina was TL 9 in 275. Why did Regina gain only one TL in
EIGHT centuries and two more in two decades? 

>Of course, this all goes to pieces if you don't accept the `ability to
>produce' definition for TL.  

No, I accept that.

>>Where did you get that definition? I mean, if you made it up yourself you're
>>begging the question.
> 
>Bingo!  You've caught me.  This is how I understand a feudal technocracy
>from reading Piper. Since I believe the GDW Sword Worlds have a great deal
>in common with Piper's I accept that GDW must have lifted the idea of a
>feudal technocracy from Piper.

Funny, I too think that Piper's Gram describes a feudal society, possibly
even what GDW thought of when they coined the term 'feudal technocracy', 
but I disagree that it describes one that works the way you claim. The only 
shares I remember mentioned is the ones in the Tanith Venture, an offworld
commercial venture. Every other 'holding' in the book is a solid land fief.
The holdings are enhanced by various commercial features like the mines
on Traskon and the Karvall steel mills, but the old feudal fiefs were also
enhanced in value from whatever water mills and mines to be found on them.
Piper's Gram is merely a feudal monarchy set in a more technological
advanced age than the medieval feudal monarchies of Terra.

>>In a feudal society you get to be king because you have the support of the
>>great lords. In theory you gets that support because you own the land and
>>lend it to the great lords in return for their sworn support (In practice
>>the great lords often control the land whatever the King wants).
>> 
>>By analogy a feudal technocracy is one where the King theoretically owns
>>all the industry (the source of power analogous to land in a feudal
>>society) and lend it out in exchange for support. In practice many great
>>lords propably control their 'fiefs' whatever the King wants.
> 
>This is good, but you're about to confuse *owning* the means of production
>with *managing* an operation, i.e. a corporate government.

I don't think so.

>>What you are describing is a corporate government, not a feudal one. In a
>>feudal government power (in this case, ownership of shares) flows from the 
>>top to the bottom. What you describe is power flowing from the bottom (the 
>>individual shares) to the top.
> 
>A corporate government is a specialized form of autocracy.  In a corporate
>government everyone involved is an *employee* of the person(s) in charge.
>They have no choice but to follow the dictates of the manager or leave
>the company.  

In a feudal society a vassal's ability to disregard the dictates of his
liege lord is no greater. His whole right to his fief is tied up with his
obligation to obey his liege lord's legitimate orders.

>The `king'
>is like the Chairman of the Board of Directors (often also the CEO).  As
>such she is repsonsible for seeing that the will of the shareholders is
>carried out.

It only just struck me, but why are you assuming that there are any share-
holders? I repeat: "By analogy a feudal technocracy is one where the King 
theoretically owns all the industry (the source of power analogous to land 
in a feudal society) and lends it out in exchange for support."

>In a corporate government the CEO does not have to listen to the Vice
>Presidents or other officers of the company  -  she gives the orders and
>they carry them out. In a feudal technocracy, the Chairman ignores
>the voices of the other Directors (who represent blocs of shareholders)
>at her peril.  When things get tough, the directors *remove* the Chairman
>and find a replacement.  In the corprate model, when things get tough
>for an Executive Vice President, she finds another job (or jumps out
>a window).

Who owns the corporation in a corporate government? Who owns it in a feudal
technocracy? What's the difference? 

I think it would be useful to agree on the equivalences of various terms
in the three systems we're talking about. Here's mine:

Traditional feudal society	Corporation		Feudal technocracy

King				     -			King

The king is the man who owns the fiefs and doles them out in return for
support from his vassals. In that respect he is the equivalent of the
owner or the shareholders of a corporation. But an owner's power does not
depend on the support of their CEOs, so there is no real correspondence.

 Fief				Corporation		Corporation

Land was what supported the fighting men that was the military power in the
old feudal monarchies. In more advanced societies industrial holdings pro-
duce wealth that pays for military power.

Vassal (Duke/Count/etc.)	CEO			Vassal

The vassal manages the fief for the king. If the fief is an industrial
holding then his work resembles that of a company CEO.

Steward/Reeve/Guard Captain	Company Officer		Company Officer

The officers who helps to run the holding, hired and fired by the man in
charge.

Sub-fief			Subsidiary		Subsidiary

A vassal may parcel out parts of his holding to lesser vassals. 

Feudal service			Dividends		Feudal service

In a feudal society a vassal pays his liege lord with service, not with
money. Shareholders, on the other hand, recieve their pay in money.

     -				Board of Directors	     -
     -				Shareholders		     -

These have no real equivalents in a feudal society.

>In a feudal technocracy the `king' owns the largest bloc of shares of
>*everything* but he doesn't necessarily own everything.  

You didn't get this from Piper. Duke Angus owns his holdings outright. Baron
Trask owns all of Traskon. Baron Karvall owns all of Karvall. When Lucas
Trask pledges Traskon in return for a ship, Angus gets the whole bit, not
just a share of it. 

>If no one owns a
>controlling bloc you get balkanization, like Joyeuse.  

If the Dukes can't agree on who to support for king you get balkanization.

>A good modern example outside the *keiritsu* would be the influence of
>pension fund managers on corporate America today.  Because pension funds
>often hold huge blocs of stock in a corporation they are able to influence
>the policies and practices of the corporation.  They are, in effect, the
>`fiefholders' of the Chairman or `king' who may still control the largest
>bloc of shares but is no where near having a majority holding.

Still sounds like corporate politics. I don't see where the feudal bit gets
into it at all. The Chairman of a Corporation dosen't excersise _any_
control over the pension funds, does he? The pension fund managers dosen't
perform services for the Corporation Chairman, do they (They don't even
pay him money). Thus there is no true equivalence between the pension fund 
managers and a fiefholder in a feudal society.

I realize that I assume that the word 'feudal' in 'feudal technocracy' has a 
semantic content close to the normal definition of the word and is not a
mere buzz-word. 

>The key element here is that in a feudal technocracy the economic influence
>of shareholders translates directly into politcal power.

In a feudal technocracy industrial holdings IMO takes the place of land for 
the purposes of generating the wealth that translates into power.

>>Granted, but the only way you can get that influence is if the king of
>>Gram allows you to buy that controlling interest.
> 
>No, only if he owns everything.  If he only owns a plurality or majority
>his `barons' can sell their shares at will.

If he owns them he can dictate who gets to buy them.

>>The king theoretically _owns_ those shares and
>>what you pay for must be the right to benefit from them. And one of the
>>things you must pay with is the promise to support him.
> 
>Right, and if King Harald buys an interest in Gram's holdings he becomes
>a player in the political system there.  

But what if King Anders just refuse to let his baron sell his holding?

>He may choose to honor his `bond' to King Angus 

He damn well better.

>(sorry, I'm sticking with Piper) 

Why? We are talking about the GDW Sword Worlds, aren't we? Why invite
confusion?

>or he may not.  

Thereby forfeiting his right to the fief. 

>My point is that since, under my world view, Sacnoth is the strongest 
>economic power, Harald will one day triumph over Angus.  

1) Being stronger is not an automatic ticket to victory.
2) He isn't that much stronger.
3) Assuming just for a moment that your view of feudal technocracies is
   true (which I doubt), the whole concept could as easily work the other 
   way round. King Anders could own huge blocks of Sacnoth industry, making 
   Harald a puppet of his.

>Unless of course
>Angus has managed to control all the shares on Gram, in which case Gram
>becomes an autocracy rather than a feudal technocracy.  

If Anders owns all of Gram he will have to put people in charge of parts of 
it, which could result in various systems, including a feudal technocracy. 

 .(And then Harald
>just uses his higher TL military to defeat Angus!)

Again you assume that Harald and his ancestors would want to conquer Gram
militarily. Again I suggest that they may not be ready to pay the price.

>>>Since, at TL 12, I'm clearly the strongest economic power
>> 
>> Fallacy. See above.
>
>I'll give you this is you give me an example of a downward turn in your
>cycles, otherwise I'm sticking with the scientific method.  :-)

No, I was talking about their respective GPPs. Of course, if King Anders
owns a big slice of Sacnoth, he gets a good slice of their GPP too ;-)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Wed, 01 Jun 94 22:00:04 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #624: Msgs 7825-7837 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Wed Jun  1 22:00:03 EDT 1994
Reply-To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 01 Jun 94 22:00:04 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #624: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 624  7825 30-May-1994 "Tariq M. Rashi  Re:TW 2000 : TNE << In Reply to John Ba
 624  7826 31-May-1994 langsl@cbr.hhcs  Definitions... <<                   I N
 624  7827 30-May-1994 john.bogan@asb.  REGINA TL << Hans writes:
 624  7828 28-May-1994 David Johnson    TNE: More Regency Political Blocs << Ge
 624  7829 31-May-1994 Arthur Green     Re: FFS: K'kree Lose Starflight << > Bu
 624  7830 30-May-1994 Stewart Eyres    Gvurrdon << Hi there
 624  7831 31-May-1994 L.T.Bryant       Twilight to TNE <<  
 624  7832 31-May-1994 L.T.Bryant       2300 to TNE <<  After  a  hard  week  e
 624  7833 31-May-1994 "KMCCARTHY"      FFS Excel Slug Weapon Sprea <<         
 624  7834 31-May-1994 TML Administrat  ADM: Subject prefixes  << [Crossposted 
 624  7835 31-May-1994 CHiggin@aol.com  Reprocessed Algae (retry) << From: Stev
 624  7836 31-May-1994 CHiggin@aol.com  Techno-Economic Fleet Size Cycle << Fro
 624  7837 31-May-1994 David Johnson    All: Naval Forces << Gentlesophonts:

------------------------------

Bundle: 624
Archive-Message-Number: 7825
Date: Mon, 30 May 1994 21:12:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Reply-To: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Subject: Re:TW 2000 : TNE

In Reply to John Banagan, yes TW 2000 weapons are compatible to TNE but 
not strictly.  However the divergence is small.  For one the Bulk ratings 
in TW 2000 are lower than they would be in TNE. Also beware that you have 
the corrected weapons stats from the TNE book.  Most weapons in the first 
TNE book are significantly underated.  There is an Errata booklet.  Some 
TW 2000 weapons are actually TL 8 (HK G11, FN-FAL).  The idea about the 
TL 12? force invading the TL 7 worlds is an interesting one.  Thats a 
pretty big TL spread but perhaps the fact that the higher TL force has to 
bring its stuff with it will provide some balance.  There are plenty of 
TL 7 weapons that could take out a TL 12 Grav tank.  

While Im on the subject..does anyone have any knowledge of or experience 
with a platoon level traveller combat scenario.  I have considered trying 
to adapt some traveller weapons to the Last Battle system(Sands of War) 
but the speed of grav tanks turns them into helicopter!  

Oops!  I would like to apologize for revealing my war gaming roots up 
there.  Im curious.. how would your PCs be involved in this invasion.  
Getting caught in the middle somehow?  Well  I guess Ive answered your 
question.  Ill just leave you with this

TL 8  120 mm Smoothbore 50 Caliber Gun  APFSDSDU will give a Pen rating 
about 160-170

TL 11 120 mm Smoothbore ETC Gun  APFSDSCI Pen Rating over 250

It should be an interesting invasion...Id like to keep this discussion 
going.. Lets call this the premise

The PCs are on this TL 7 world and presently 2000+ km from their ship 
(which is in contested territory anyway) and they are racing someone to 
get something and get back to the ship (if it hasnt been captured or 
destroyed)  This works best if the PCs had little or no warning about the 
invasion.  Hell...maybe us TMLers (or whats left of us) can write a 
module for me to use next time Im Refereeing.  Oh well.


Tariq, 
Adio





------------------------------

Bundle: 624
Archive-Message-Number: 7826
Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 09:56:09 +1000
From: langsl@cbr.hhcs.gov.au
Subject: Definitions...


                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                      Date:  Sent on: 31-May-1994 09:57am
                                      From:  Alistair Langsford
                                             LANGSFORD ALISTAIR
                                      Dept:  Information Services
                                      Tel No:289 7870

TO:  Remote Addressee                     ( _traveller@engrg.uwo.ca )


Subject: Definitions...

    MY 2 CENTS ON FEUDAL TECHNOCRACY & THE SWORD WORLDS
    ---------------------------------------------------
    
    	 Reading Hans' and David's discussions on Sword Worlds government 
         prompted me to do some research. Here are my results.
    
    TECHNOCRACY:
    ------------
     n.	 Organisation  and management of a county's industrial resources by 
         technical experts for the good of the whole community; Hence 
         technocrat, advocate of this.
    
    	 (from the Concise Oxford Dictionary)
    
    FEUDAL TECHNOCRACY:
    -------------------
    
    	 Government by specific individuals for those who agree to be 
         ruled. Relationships are based on the performance of technical 
         activities which are mutually beneficial.
    
    	 (from TNE, p188).
    
    	 This could be lots of things. However, it sounds like the feudal 
         system we all know from history/hollywood/fantasy role playing 
         could fit in with this. 
    
    CONCLUSION (IMO, of course 8-))
    ----------
    
    	 One possible interpretation of a Feudal technocracy comes from 
         combining what we understand by the terms Feudal and Technocracy. 
         
    	 The Feudal bit is in fact just like the Feudal system we know from 
         history, with for example a King and his vassal Nobles (Dukes, 
         Marquis, Counts, Barons, Knights) each of which has his/her own 
         vassals who comprise the remainder of the population (e.g. 
         Upperclass, Middleclass, and Lowerclass). And of course Nobles may 
         also have lesser ranking Nobles as vassals, depending on your 
         version of the Feudal system.
    
    	 Each Noble (including the King) has a staff (e.g. a council of 
         advisors supported by a  'civil service' or 'public service') to 
         assist in the administration of his domains. When it comes to 
         managing the industry within a noble's domain, the staff are 
         technical experts in that relevant technologies. This last is the 
         'technocracy' bit. The ruling classes believe in this method of 
         managing industry, which makes them technocrats. By analogy, the 
         practice would probably extend to the management of fields other 
         than those traditionally thought of as comprising 'industry'.
    
    	 To me the above description seems to fit the term 'Feudal 
         Technocracy' better than David Johnsons *kieretsu* (sp?) model. 
         I don't know enough about *kieretsu* to say whether or not they 
         also fit the description. To me they sound like a better model for 
         Corporate governments.
    
    So, what do people think? Comments welcome.
    
    --
    Alistair Langsford,
    langsl@cbr.hhcs.gov.au


------------------------------

Bundle: 624
Archive-Message-Number: 7827
From: john.bogan@asb.com
Date: Mon, 30 May 94 09:50:02 
Subject: REGINA TL


Hans writes:

>So the
question becomes: Regina was TL 9 in 275. Why did Regina gain only one TL in
> 
EIGHT centuries and two more in two decades? 

Well, we all know the REAL reason for that is that Regina was made out to be
such
an important world in the Marches' affairs that having such a relatively low
tech level
as 10 seemed a bit peculiar.  Even more, it's forward location and Tech-10
defenses
made it rather vulnerable to Zhodani attack, as 5FW players may know.

The solution was to tweak the TL upward slightly during the shift to MT.

I tend to regard the lower tech level as one of those "early Traveller
inconsistencies",
like the major warship status of the Kinunir, and retroactively give it the
higher tech.

Otherwise, attribute the increase to the 5FW.  As a solution it has its
problems,
but its the closest thing to a reasonable rationalization available.


John Bogan


------------------------------

Bundle: 624
Archive-Message-Number: 7828
Date: Sat, 28 May 94 16:41:16 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE: More Regency Political Blocs

Gentlesophonts:

Here's some additional material for *Shall Not Perish*, our TML Regency
sourcebook.

We've already identified the following political blocs for the Regency:

Isolationists want to maintain the Quarantine.
 -Led by the Duke/Duchess of Trin's Veil?
Expansionists want to move out into the Wilds.
 -Enjoys Instellarms backing.
Democrats seek to expand `democratic' values.
 -Led by the Duke/Duchess of Gazulin?
Aristocrats want to maintain the noble aristocracy.
 -Led by Duchess Elane of Mora
 -Possibly known as Muudashirists?
 -Enjoy much support among the House of Nobles
Tolerants favor a relaxation of psi prejudices.
 -Discretely supported by SuSAG.
Santanocheevists oppose any moves toward accommodation with the Zhodani.
 -Led by the Duke/Duchess of Rhylanor?
 -Enjoys Instellarms backing.
Imperialists still hope to one day resurrect the Old Imperium.
 -Led by the Duke/Duchess of Deneb?
 -Enjoys support from Tukera Lines.
Autnomists favor independence and a complete break from the Imperial past.

I'd like to propose two additional blocs:

Interventionists want the Regency to play a stronger role in the affairs
  of individual worlds.
 -Enjoys support among most megacorps.
Sovereigntists oppose efforts to limit the sovereignty of individual worlds.

Here's an updated `alliance' template:

     Iso  Exp  Dem  Ari  Tol  San  Imp  Aut  Int   Sov
Iso   -    x    ?    ?    ?    o    x    o    ?     ?
Exp   x    -    ?    ?    ?    o    o    o    ?     ?
Dem   ?    ?    -    x    o    ?    x    ?    ?     ?
Ari   ?    ?    x    -    ?    ?    o    ?    x     o
Tol   ?    ?    o    ?    -    x    x    ?    x     o
San   o    o    ?    ?    x    -    o    ?    ?     ?
Imp   x    o    x    o    x    o    -    x    x     o
Aut   o    o    ?    ?    ?    ?    x    -    ?     ?
Int   ?    ?    ?    x    x    ?    x    ?    -     x
Sov   ?    ?    ?    o    o    ?    o    ?    x     -

codes: o = favorable, x = opposed

Comments?  Other candidates?

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 624
Archive-Message-Number: 7829
From: Arthur Green <ARTHUR@cclana.ucd.ie>
Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 09:29:53 +0100
Subject: Re: FFS: K'kree Lose Starflight

> Bundle: 623
> Archive-Message-Number: 7819
> Date: Mon, 30 May 1994 01:29:18 -0500
> From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
> Subject: FFS: K'kree Lose Starflight
> 
> More troubles on the FF&S/BL front:
> 
> Lately I decided to try to check out the boundaries of the starship design
> rules by building a K'kree Xeekr'kir! (Imperial designation "Merchant").
> Obviously, FF&S/BL is meant for Imperial ships only.  However, the only
> main differences were in accommodations, airlocks, and a few other details
> of ship design which were easily converted from CT rules.  (The changes
> can roughly be summed up that the K'kree require twelve times the space
> Humans do for movement and living.)
> 
> The trouble came when I started calculating crew sizes.  K'kree usually 
> travel in herds -- besides working crew, accommodations need to be set aside
> for wives, bodyguards, advisors, and so on.  Between this and their space
> requirements, they needed 5000+ ton ships in CT.  This allowed, in CT, a
> primary crew of ten or so, and about sixty or seventy family members, some
> of whom also had shipboard duties of various types.  The ship I designed
> had jump-2, one gee drives.
> 
> But crew requirements have exploded in TNE.  This 6000 ton ship required 
> some 4 engineers for the drives in CT/MT.  In TNE, my preliminary and now
> abandoned calculations indicate a requirement of some 64 engineers.  This 
> effectively closes out K'kree star travel on this size class of ship.  My
> quick estimates suggest that the K'kree may now require starships in the
> battleship size class under TNE rules (100,000+ tons).
> 
> Now, I don't know what the justification for the increases in crew size are
> in TNE.  If it's a reaction to the *#@$ virus, they neither say so anywhere
> nor provide alternative crew calculations for non-Virus campaigns.  Any
> input or comments on this business?
> 
From what I recall of TNE's spiel on starships, you now have lots of 
crew because you can't trust your computers any more (or maybe that's 
the inference I drew). It makes things kind of difficult for 
retro-designing old rules starships -- I bought FFS over the weekend 
and tried to redesign the Fiery class GE using FFS. I *think* I'm 
doing the design right but I still end up with a fast escort with less 
armour than the Gazelle and a measly 17 G-turns of thrust.

I think some tweaking of the engineering/maintenance numbers for crew 
sizes are in order. What I plan to do is compare the engineering crew
requirements in CT, TCS and MT and see how they look compared to 
TNE/FFS. If anyone's interested, I'll report back to the list. 

> Furthermore, this sort of thing sharply limits the size of the ships that
> human adventuring crews can run with the party.  And warships of significant
> size will have truly stupendous crew requirements.
> 
> Somebody asked recently why so many old-time "classic" Traveller players
> are complaining about the rules changes, because they'd never seen AD&D
> players react like this when AD&D Second Edition came out.  Well, my friend,
> that's because TSR didn't do something that at times I could describe with a 
> pungent four-letter Anglo-Saxon word to the rules.  Right now is one of those
> times, but I'm restraining myself.  AD&D 2nd Ed. *is* AD&D.  TNE isn't quite 
> old Traveller.  So some of us who played for a long time with the old rules
> get upset sometimes when things we think had better work don't, again.  It 
> doesn't happen so much over there, I hear.
> 
You said it. I've been playing Traveller since 1983 or so and I don't 
like the idea of using TNE rules for the Imperium. That said, I think 
the new rules are failry good (except for the personal damage rules, 
but I'm working on that :-). As a result, I'm working on a 
non-Imperial background at the moment which has been stalled somewhat 
due to getting FFS and discovering all those variant technologies ...

>   Frustrated Starship Architect,
> 
>   Steve Bonneville
>   <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>
> 

------------------------------

Bundle: 624
Archive-Message-Number: 7830
Date: Mon, 30 May 1994 15:20:00 +0100 (BST)
From: Stewart Eyres <spe@jb.man.ac.uk>
Subject: Gvurrdon

Hi there

To whom ever was posting Gvurrdon Sector data on Sunbane:  Where did it go?!?

:-)

_____________________________________________________________________________
"Traveller Done Wrong 
	- Let's get the Fiction back into Science Fiction Roleplaying"

Stewart								N.R.A.L.
								Jodrell Bank
								Macclesfield
spe@jb.man.ac.uk						Cheshire
								SK11 9DL
____________________________________________________________________________


------------------------------

Bundle: 624
Archive-Message-Number: 7831
From: cs5025@wlv.ac.uk (L.T.Bryant)
Subject: Twilight to TNE
Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 13:00:43 +0100 (BST)

 
> 	In   reply   to  john`s  question   abought   transfering
> traveller  and twilight guns and equipment, I can see no  problem
> with  doing this as ive look through and they apper to  be  bouth
> the  same,  There is one small problem in that the costs  of  the
> items will need to be sorted but thats no problem.
> 	Hope this helps,
> 	Sincerly
> L Byant
> -- 
> oh rose thou art sick
>                the invisible worm that flys by night.....STEEL
> 
> 


- -- 
oh rose thou art sick
               the invisible worm that flys by night.....STEEL


------------------------------

Bundle: 624
Archive-Message-Number: 7832
From: cs5025@wlv.ac.uk (L.T.Bryant)
Subject: 2300 to TNE
Date: Tue, 31 May 1994 13:02:57 +0100 (BST)

 After  a  hard  week  end ive finished most  of  the  gauss  and
firearms from 2300 to TNE if any one wants them let me know so  i
can get them dumped to you. 
Bye again
L Bryant
- -- 
oh rose thou art sick
               the invisible worm that flys by night.....STEEL


------------------------------

Bundle: 624
Archive-Message-Number: 7833
Date: 31 May 1994 08:54:32 U
From: "KMCCARTHY" <KMCCARTHY@qmgate.osc.hq.nasa.gov>
Subject: FFS Excel Slug Weapon Sprea

                       Subject:                               Time:8:50 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          FFS Excel Slug Weapon Spreadsheet      Date:5/31/94
Pete,

I tried out you FFS Excel template for <2cm slug waepons.  While I liked it
ALOT there is one major error.  In the Design Evaluation Box the Burst Recoil
Calculation is not correct.  It only gives the Burst size not the recoil
calculation for a burst, which is what should be displayed there.

Please make the correction and email the TML and me when it is complete.

Thanks,

Kevin



------------------------------

Bundle: 624
Archive-Message-Number: 7834
Subject: ADM: Subject prefixes 
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Administrator)
From: TML Administrator <traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca>
Date: Tue, 31 May 94 09:48:20 PDT


[Crossposted only because of critical interest from both XTML and TML
camps...]

Bruce Pihlamae writes:
> included is a sample format with a 'first cut' of suitable codes.
>
>  Subject Codes must be used at all times. Current allowed values are:
>  
>  (CT)    Classic Traveller rule set       (IMP)   3rd Imperium Era
>  (HG)    High Guard                       (TCS)   Trillion Credit Squadron
> 
>  (MT)    MegaTraveller rule set           (REB)   Rebellion Era
> 
>  (NE)    Traveller New Era rule set       (TNE)   The New Era,
>  (FFS)   Fire Fusion & Steel
>  
>  (ANN)   Announce releases, erata, etc    (GEN)   Non-specific stuff
>  (FLAME) Flame material, things you hate  (ADM)   Administrivia
> 
>  (CAT)   Computer-Aided Traveller         (VDES)  Ship, Vehicle Designs
>  (WDES)  Weapon Designs                   (WORLD) System, World Designs
>  (CHAR)  Character Design
> 
>  (ALTHI) Alternate Histories              ( FICT) Short Stories, Fiction
>  (GM)    Scenarios, GM'ing
> 
> Hope this is of some use ... are we generating too many codes perhaps?
>
> What do you think?

I like it.  How's this?

In order to be appear in the digest, messages must contain one or more
codes (listed below) embedded in the Subject line, seperated from the
rest of the text by a non-alphabetic character. These codes are used by
the digester to create custom, filtered digests. For example, the
following would appear in digests filtered to include Classic Traveller
and 3rd Imperium messages:

	Subject: CT,IMP: How many Ancients can dance on the head of a pin?

_____RULESET______ ______ERA_______  ________GENERAL________ ____DESIGN SIGS____
CT  Classic Trav   IMP 3rd Imperium  ANN   Announcements     VDES Vehicle Design
MT  MegaTraveller  REB Rebellion           Releases, Errata  WDES Weapon Design
HG  High Guard     TNE The New Era   FLAME Flame/Hate Tirade CDES Char Design
NE  New Era Rules  ____FICTION____   ADM   Administrivia     WDES World Design
TCS Trillion       FICT Stories      GEN   General, non-     CAT  Computer Aids
  Credit Squadron  AHIS Alternate	   specific stuff
FFS Fire Fusion &       Histories
    Steel          GM   Scenarios

So folks, what do *you* think? Have I misplaced FFS? I think before we
add any more categories, we'll probably want to remove some. I think 21
categories is a good working maximum.

James

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
James Perkins, List Administrator			Eugene, Oregon, USA
Traveller Mailing List (incl. The New Era)   traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Xboat Traveller Mailing List (Classic & MegaT)	 xboat-request@engrg.uwo.ca

------------------------------

Bundle: 624
Archive-Message-Number: 7835
From: CHiggin@aol.com
Date: Tue, 31 May 94 14:12:03 EDT
Subject: Reprocessed Algae (retry)


From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc

>as capture all of the surrounding agricultural worlds.  I'm sure Glisten
>had hydroponics and carniculture plants as internal food sources, but
>there would have been some form of dependence on supplemental outside
>food sources.  Basically, reprocessed algae might keep you
>alive, but probably would not keep you overly happy or healthy.  The

    Reprocessed algae?  Sheesh!  "We of Glisten do not eat 
'reprocessed algae'!  I'll thank you to know that Glisten not only 
feeds itself on the finest foodstuffs from the myriad planets of the 
Imperium, we export crops from our aeroponic habitats to you 
flatlanders on those harsh, dry, foul-air worlds you so love to 
develop!"

    Have you ever seen, in person or in pictures, Disney World's 
Aeroponic gardens at Epcot Center?  All the food served at Epcot 
Center is grown in the aeroponic gardens, in a fraction of the space 
required for dirt-grown crops.  Aeroponic and hydroponic agriculture, 
acre for acre, plant for plant, outproduces conventional agriculture 
by a considerable margin while using LESS water and fertilizer!  And 
this is at TL 8!  No, TL15 Glisten is not going to have a problem 
feeding itself... Aki might, though.

From: A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
>Hmm. Perhaps ideally... :-) It might be fairer to note that the 
> 'elected' representatives only get where they are by lying,
>back-handers, use of the media to portray them as 'nice people', etc.
>[allegedly].  They rarely think

    I see you've heard of Bill Clinton over there, too. >:-|

                                    -- Cynthia





------------------------------

Bundle: 624
Archive-Message-Number: 7836
From: CHiggin@aol.com
Date: Tue, 31 May 94 14:11:49 EDT
Subject: Techno-Economic Fleet Size Cycle

From: Grant Sinclair <grant@cleese.apana.org.au>

>To further explain the apparent inconsistency, there is the maintenance
>overhead aspect of the TCS rules (10% for operational ships and 1% for
>ships in ordinary).  Both the economics of shipbuilding and published
>sources surely show that there would be many ships in ordinary.  I have

    Based on TCS campaign experience, this is true.

>not seen this taken into account in some of the discussions.
>(Incidentally, does anyone know why these are so high? Operational
>civilian ships only need 0.1%).

    TCS maintenance costs include stuff like crew payrolls, military 
pensions, life support costs, berthing costs, bases, training schools, 
etc, etc, etc, that are paid for separately from "annual maintenance" 
when using the role-playing rules (CT Book 2, High Guard, MT, TNE) for 
ships.  

>In Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium (which I know is not the
>best source of designs in the world, but it is official)

"Shattered Ships" is utterly worthless as a source of ANY information,
official or unofficial.  It is so riddled with typos that EVEN GDW has
apologized for it; furthermore, the ships that aren't typographical 
errors violate the published rules six ways from Sunday.  Ignore it.

Hans & David:

>Except that they represent a stagnation of the economy that is quite
>incredible to me. It's the 'slow' I object to. One TL in umpteen 
>centuries is not slow, it's moribund.

    Yes.  I excuse this rate of progress in most of the Imperium by 
chalking it up to "Vilani Cultural Influence"; the Sword Worlds has no 
such excuse.  Rather the opposite:  technophile Terran cultural 
heritage, surrounded by enemies, constantly fighting wars.  You need a 
really good explanation why Sacnoth isn't TL21 already...  

Feudal Technocracy:

Hans:
>I realize that I assume that the word 'feudal' in 'feudal 
>technocracy' has a semantic content close to the normal definition of
>the word and is not a mere buzz-word.

    So do I. If anything, the "technocracy" part is the buzz-word.  
David, what you keep describing sounds like a plain old Corporate 
state (Gov 1) to me.  Frankly, a true "Feudal Technocracy" as 
described in the CT/MT/TNE definition is either extremely rare or 
describes the standard Vilani bureaucracy when it is still small 
enough to be functional.  Most non-Vilani Gov 5 worlds are probably 
just High-Tech Feudalisms, a la Piper's Gram, or the worlds of the 
Keltiad (Patricia McNeally).  

    To further muddy the issue, I have somewhere an issue of High 
Passage or JOTAS (I forget which), in which Mark Miller describes the 
Traveller government codes.  He said that these government codes DO 
NOT actually describe the whole government, but how it appears to 
outsiders (travellers) that must deal with it (i.e., what kind of 
government hassles your PCs get...).  Don't pin too much on a single 
UPP digit; set up your world's government anyway you like, and pick a 
UPP digit that approximates it.  There will be several to chose from.  
Is the U.S.  a representative democracy (gov 4) (based on government 
structure as outlined in the Constitution), a civil service 
bureaucracy (gov 8) (based on how the Federal government is supposed 
to work), an impersonal bureaucracy (gov 9) (based on how the Federal 
government usually works) or a charismatic oligarchy (gov C)(the 
country is really run by a relatively small coterie of elected and 
appointed officials who know each other, pat each other's backs, and 
get the job by looking good in 30-second sound bites)?  

    As with TechLevel definitions, GDW created endless fodder for 
arguments by mixing structural definitions (Representative Democracy, 
Tech level of a given artifact), with procedural or functional 
definitions (impersonal bureaucracy, production level of a world).  

When doing detailed looks at a world, I find that GURPS Space has 
better random-generation tables for government type than Traveller. 
The government descriptions are more informative, too.

David:
>I'll give you this is you give me an example of a downward turn in your
>cycles, otherwise I'm sticking with the scientific method.  :-)

You are confusing "scientific method" and Occam's Razor.  OR is not 
"scientific method", it is simply a useful heuristic for sorting out 
multiple explanations.  It is not necessarily correct, either.

Steve Bonneville:

>Somebody asked recently why so many old-time "classic" Traveller 
>players are complaining about the rules changes, because they'd never
>seen AD&D players react like this when AD&D Second Edition came
>out.  Well, my friend, that's because TSR didn't do something 
>that at times I could describe with a pungent four-letter Anglo-Saxon
>word to the rules.  Right now is one of those times, but I'm
>restraining myself.  AD&D 2nd Ed.  *is* AD&D.

    Yep.  I can take a 1st ed.  AD&D character, monster or scenario 
and drop it *unchanged* into a 2nd ed.  AD&D campaign.  Any necessary 
changes are trivial enough to do in my head as I encounter them -- for 
the most part.  The only exceptions are dragons and the "d" critters 
- -- most of them went thru upscaling in combat abilities and hit dice, 
and scenarios involving them have to be rebalanced.
    To drop a CT/MT scenario into TNE, I have to redo the NPCs, the 
equipment, the animals, and the ships.  All that is left is the plot, 
and most of the MT stuff had really poor plots.  In some cases, the 
change from unlimited delta-V thrusters (or CT non-specific "maneuver 
drive") to limited delta-V reaction drives totally throws the plot out 
the window.  Let's not even mention that if you use the TNE "Virus" 
background, all the old 3rd Imperium background material is worse than 
useless.  TNE is an entirely NEW game with the Traveller name still 
attached...  

From: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@192.219.29.90>

>    2. The frontier war happens in a small corner of a huge empire.
>Larger forces may deployed against greater threats, or as a part of
>core imperial politics.

    This may be true of, say, Ley sector, but the Spinward Marches 
faces one of the 3rd Imperium's two biggest enemies, and GDW material 
has repeatedly stated that the Spinward Marches, Deneb, and Corridor 
Fleets are *OVERSIZED* because of the Zhodani and Vargr threats.  
There is no greater threat besides the Solomani, and GDW material has 
depicted the 3I deploying more forces against the Zho/Vargr front than 
the Solomani Rim -- apparently, the Solomani were trounced during the 
Rim War...  <sarcasm intended>.  

                        -- Cynthia Higginbotham


    "Q:  What is the difference between the BATF and the Gestapo?"
    "A:  BATF agents speak English."



------------------------------

Bundle: 624
Archive-Message-Number: 7837
Date: Tue, 31 May 94 19:10:33 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: All: Naval Forces

Gentlesophonts:

Wow!  I'm still having mail problems but my dip into the ftp pool has
turned up a whole mess of stuff on this naval forces/technology/economics
discussion.  Actually, it's kind of neat seeing it all come together (or
at least being able to recognize the inter-relatedness).  I just wish some
folks wouldn't take things (or *make* things) so personal.


"First, we kill all the rules lawyers."
            - David Johnson [after William Shakespeare]  :-)


From last Wednesday night, Wes Esser <wesley@hd62.haledorr.com> writes:

>               All this talk about naval forces etc set me thinking, so I
>          decided to do an analysis of the class A starports in the Domain
>          ca 1120.

This is great work, Wes!  The reason I've been pursuing this discussion was
to generate this sort of information.  All these folks arguing for different
rules isn't particularly interesting *or* useful.  IMHO, though, efforts
like this are.

>          It does
>          however explain how the Domain could survive at a high tech level:
>          it actually has a strong, high tech industrial base.

See!  This is useful information.  It adds to our understanding of the
Regency (or the Imperium) and is a great contribution to *Shall Not Perish*.

>          What this seems to imply is that the MT figure of 1000 ships per
>          sector is a limit imposed by Imperial Policy, not by the
>          limitations on planetary economies. 

You mean there is another course besides endless rants about one's favorite
rules?  :-)  Once again, we've managed to discover a background issue in
the morass of rules data that exists out there.

>               I think this may shed some light on the continuing discussion
>          about the Sword Worlds.

I do too.  Thanks, Wes, for actually *trying* to reconcile the divergent
rules information rather than merely rejecting out of hand the source that
you disagree with.  (of course, it still doesn't explain the *5FW* counters
for the Sword Worlds . . . .)

>          Ok...so there's my two centicredits worth...

I think it was worth a great deal more.  :-)


Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net> writes:

> David Johnson and Cynthia Higginbotham are engaging in a rather acrimonious
> dispute over which version of Traveller reality we should use to visualize
> fleet conditions in the Imperium.

I'm sorry if it has appeared acrimonious.  That certainly hasn't been my 
intention or impression.  And I really don't care *which* 'reality' we
should accept.  I've been trying to understand *why* we should accept either
one over the other.  IMHO, the ideal situation would be to reconcile *all*
official information.  I recognize that this may not be possible but I
think Wes has shown us that it's less impossible in this case then some
folks think.

> I haven't got time for a detailed answer, but you have to start on the
> basis of accepting that there is no way that 5FW can be reconciled with
> TCS.

Thanks to Wes I don't think we do *have* to start with this assumption.  If
we broaden the discussion beyond mere issues of rules to include the entire
campaign we recognize that *rules* are just a tool that can be used to
facilitate the larger endeavor of the entire campaign background.

> Once you get past that, the reason for not accepting 5FW as the
> model is this:  The ship levels in 5FW are way too low for any reasonable
> bottom up estimate based on population or economic activity. 

See, here we are again.  What's the value of basing the decision merely
upon 'rules' data like population and 'economics'?  If we remember that
this is an entire role-playing campaign, we see there are other aspects
like politics and culture to help us explain these 'facts'.
 
> I agree with Steve Higginbotham, who said that 5FW was best viewed as a
> "simplified" representation of the "real" world, since no one would want to
> push 10,000 counters around.

This may be but you have to admit it is based upon a 'rules-only' point
of view.

> Rob Dean
> (stirring in his long hibernation)

Glad to see you haven't left us for XTML (yet?).

Peace,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 05 Jun 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #625: Msgs 7838-7853 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun Jun  5 22:00:03 EDT 1994
Reply-To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Jun 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #625: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 625  7838 31-May-1994 Steve Charlton/  Glisten; Last Word, I Swear! << In defe
 625  7839 31-May-1994 Jo_Grant.LOTUSI  MT: Aslan on Glisten, think again << Yo
 625  7840 31-May-1994 David Johnson    All: More TCS vs. 5FW << Gentlesophonts
 625  7841 31-May-1994 David Johnson    All: More TCS vs 5FW II << Gentlesophon
 625  7842 30-May-1994 Jeff Zeitlin     75:10/7715 Tech growth << Subject: 75:1
 625  7853 01-Jun-1994 Steve Charlton/  Son of Reprocessed Algae << Re: Cynthia

------------------------------

Bundle: 625
Archive-Message-Number: 7838
From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc
Date: 31 May 94 17:44:36 
Subject: Glisten; Last Word, I Swear!

In deference to James Kundert, I shall only make this one long-winded
refutation to Hans Rancke's response to my 5/27 post, which was in
response to everybody elses posts of the past couple of weeks, etc.
(Yeek!  This has been going on for a while)

First - I have a terrible feeling that _Ihatei of Doom_ will soon become
a trademark.  I wish I could think of clever things like that.   It could be
the second in a string of movies about a famous interstellar archaeologist
wandering the Spinward Marches.  In the first feature, Rhylanor James
and the Lost Oytrip, our hero discovers an ancient device designed to
communicate directly with Grandfather, only to have it stolen by the
perfidious Zhodani.  The second, Rhylanor James and the Ihatei of Doom
finds our hero saving the Domain of Deneb from a secret cult of Aslan
worshippers, with the help of a somewhat tubby Newt by the name of
Slick Round.  The final installment, Rhylanor Jones and the Last
Emperor finds our hero travelling to Usdiki to find the whereabouts of
Strephon's Cloning Machine, with the help of Dr. Quentin James (who is of
course secretly Rhylanor's father).  On the way, Rhylanor alienates an
entire army of Emperor worshippers, who do their best to stop our hero
out of a fear that mass production of Strephons will severely lower his
market value.

Sorry, I digress.  Long weekends are good for the soul! 

There are a few problems with Hans arguments.  The most obvious one
 (and the least satisfying as this is the source of all the hubbub) is this:

The Aslan conquered Glisten subsector, therefore the Aslan were capable
of conquering Glisten subsector.

This is all well and good, but how?  Hans Rancke points out that

>Aslan Ihatei do not have the strenght to stand against even a modes
>Imperial fleet  Split up and spread out ... they become even easier to deal
>with.

I was initially inclined to agree with this statement, but it is based on two
assumptions that may not be true:

1.  The Imperium had a modest fleet available to stop the Aslan
2.  The Aslan fleet was quantitatively and qualitatively weaker than
      the local Imperial forces.

Remember, at this point the Domain of Deneb (DD) has been cut off
from the Imperium, and has been fighting a war with large-scale
vargr invasions and pirate raids along the coreward and trailing borders.
This invasion was serious enough to allow the loss of Depot in Deneb
Sector, a major source of IN reserve forces and equipment.  These
raids began before the Ihatei invasion, and many forces from the
Trojan Reach area were likely drawn into the conflict coreward, leaving
frontier defenses in that traditionally quiet area severly weakened.

As the ease of spread of the Rebellion has shown, there was significant
discord in the Imperium.  It is possible that while the fleets of DD did
not rally to Lucan's or Dulinor's call, many individual waships might
have done so.  Others may have seen an opportunity to turn bandit,
join up with the Vilani or Antareans, or left the Imperium altogether.
Significant naval forces would be occupied with internal security duties,
further weakening frontier defenses.

As to the strength of the Ihatei, do not base your assumptions on human
or Imperial norms.  The Aslan are a warrior culture.  This means the Aslan
will devote significantly greater portions of the GAP (Gross Aslan Product)
to military equipment.  A warrior strives for the best weapons he can get,
so much of that money will go to ships.  I obviously have no good
historical precedents (not many starships in the middle ages) but I do
point out the relatively large size of military forces in the Germanies in
the 19th Century.  I would not be surprised if the Alsan could field a
military two to three times the size of a comparable sized human empire.

As to tech levels; don't assume that a TL12 or 13 society has any real
technological uniformity.  As I point out above, the Aslan are a militant
race.  The females are likely to be the scientific brains of the region,
but the funding for scientific research will ultimately be controlled
by the various (male) clan heads.  While the males will not concern
 themselves with financial details, they will expect a useful return on the
investment of clan funds.  Picture this scenario:  Two female Aslan
 scientists, Alwaro and Elwaro, go before the Clan's head, Kytharako,
advised by his cheif finance officer Lyhara, a female.

Alwaro:  Honored Sire, I seek funds for a project.
Kytharako (looking bored):  What is it now?  Another study of (hiss)
                                                           Leaf-eaters?
Alwaro (looking abashed):  Yes, Honored Sire.
Kytharako:  Such talk bores me!  Be gone from my presence!
                         (looking at Elwaro)  Another scientist?  I suppose you 
wish
                         to study snowflakes?
Elwaro:  Your words are true, Honored Sire.
Kytharako:  Whay should I give you more than I gave Alwaro?
Lyhara:  Honored Sire!  Do you not remember?  Elwaro presented you
                   with the new plasma focusing ring last year.  She has greatly
                   enhanced the power of our house!
Kytharako:  What has this to do with snowflakes?
Elwaro:  Noble Sir, the ways of science are strange.  By studying the
                  crystals of nature, perhaps I can learn to make better laser
                  mirrors, and increase the range of our clan's strength.
Kytharako:  Khhrrr, you are wiser than many would realize.  The money
                          is yours.

What I am trying to get at with this pathetic attempt at virtual roleplay is
that Alsan science will focus on weapons technology as a means of
fiscal survival.  I would image Aslan weapons technology might be 1 or
2 levels higher than their general tech level.  A TL12 squadron would be
an unequal challenge to a TL15 squadron, but three TL12 squadrons with
TL14 weapons would be easily an equal match to the TL15 squadron.

Supply Lines:  The Ihatei are coming to DD to settle and stay.  They are
probably expecting to live off the wealth of the new territory rather than
surviving off of a tenuous supply line.  Given the rapidity of their conquest
of the Trojan Reach, I am sure they managed to seize a respectable
industrial base; certainly enough to maintain a steady supply of
ammunition.

Food Supplies:  While Glisten might be able to raise bulk food supplies
readily enough, there are many trace elements (certain minerals and
vitamins) that do not lend themselves to hydroponic agriculture.  Since
I am writing this at TL8, I have no idea if a better method exists at TL15,
but the fragility of these closed ecosystems in Traveller leads me to
beleive this is still a problem.  The various laws of entropy make it
clear that a sealed system cannot sustain itself indefinitely.  Blockade
running might slow the collapse of the Glisten artificial ecosystem,
but that will end once the Aslan roll up the systems around Glisten.  With
no base to mount a releif effort from, the Imperium is not going to be
able to releive Glisten.  I think the Rebellion Sourcebook data strongly
infers that the DD was unable to mount effective counterattacks into
Ihatei territory until well after the loss of Glisten.  If a counterattack was
impossible (for whatever reason) a releif mission to beseiged Glisten
would be equally wasteful of time and effort.

In your last paragraph, you make your strongest point: the Ihatei have
to hold what they seize.  Frankly, I think that is not going to be possible
for the Aslan, due to their small population base.  Their only chance is
to win the hearts and minds of humans on occupied worlds, and the
occasional nuclear or biological attack on DD worlds is going to make
that very hard for the Ihatei.  Hmmm... maybe we need to start up a new
furor/discussion frenzy on human resistance actions in the occupied
territories.

Thank you for your response, Hans.  Despite the hammering above, I
though your arguments were very good.  In all honesty, I think the 
battle lines in GDW's Rebellion Sourcebook were mostly random, and
intended to add a threat of danger for some complacent old Spinward
Marches campaigns.  So please dont think I am picking on you; I am
always this obnoxious after a three-day weekend.

scharlto@avalon.com

This does not reflect the views of my employers (who say I am
ALWAYS this obnoxious).


------------------------------

Bundle: 625
Archive-Message-Number: 7839
Date: Tue, 31 May 94 21:41:57 EDT
From: Jo_Grant.LOTUSINT.LOTUS@CRD.lotus.com
Subject: MT: Aslan on Glisten, think again

Yo Folkes,
	I've vaguely watched some of the debate on the takeover
of Glisten. I don't have my spinward marches map with me on
this trip so some of the following points may be off but bear
with me. The one crucial fault I find in most for the arguments
is this:
	STOP THINKING LIKE AN ASLAN MALE.
	THINK LIKE AN ASLAN FEMALE.
	I think it is easy enough to prove, as many have done, that
a military takeover of Glisten by an Ihatei fleet is laughable at
best. However if you think about it from a non-military point of
view it may not be so funny...

	Picture this: An Aslan male sits at home having breakfast
with his four wives and associated residents. The wind blows
through the veranda and a bird gurgles in a nearby cage. The third
setting of tea has been brewed, stewed, and served.
	Husband: "Wife #1. I am experiencing... the urge."
	Wife #1 quickly considers the impact on her schedule versus
the political advantage of having a daughter to marry off (Remember
the women are the medical technicians. Fertility treatment and
control? You bet!) Lightning quick whisker flicking and ear movements
pass between the four wives as the negotiating starts all unseen
by the husband who is inhaling the vapours of his tea. "My Lord."
Comments #1 verbally, It's been... so long."
	Husband: "Yes, but. I remember you speaking to me about
biological determinism. It is simply something I must do. The
Imperium will be a great enemy." He serenely takes a sip of tea.
	All the body-language fencing between the wives stops
instantly. "But they would outnumber us 50 to 1 and they have
a much more advanced fleet!" said Wife #4 who hadn't learned the
bloodymindedness of men yet.
	"Yes, it will be a great fight." He blows little bubbles in
his cooling tea. "Number four, you will arrange a meeting with
my brother's family, Number three, you will see to the maintenance
of the ships and thingies, Number two, um. Well, Number one, you
know about these things, see to it." He then goes back to
blowing bubbles in his tea. Well pleased with himself.

	Aslan males seldom think without acting. Whereas Aslan
females seldom act without thinking. In this sort of situation
the women are faced with the irremediable bloodymindedness of
the men and take what contingencies they can. Delays can be laid
but the inevitability of it all has to be catered for.
	The prime focus of a high-status woman (wife or sister)
is that of a corporate executive. The forces she has to bear are
not military. One family unit may not present much military or
economic power but given that the male Aslan "itch" for land is
not an isolated occurrence there are likely to be quite a few
wanting to seek their death amongst the rather superior Imperials.
For every male with enough ships and arms to even think of
getting to the Imperium there are at least two or more wives and
female relatives running the economic concerns that support the
unit.
	With the above scenario repeated several times over the women
are going to start getting together to pool their resources.
The Aslan have, on average, a lower tech level than the Imperium.
This means that their money is worth less, or, more importantly,
an Imperial credit goes further buying Aslan goods. Pushing
trade links into the Spinward marches, naturally heading toward
Glisten, trade centre of that area, is facilitated for the
Aslan because of this. Effectively exporting cheap Aslan labour
does create a trade deficit but remember this is the women's
equivalent of moving the economy onto a war footing. The deficit
can be padded by reinvesting the capital in high-tech Imperial
goods. These can be sold further back in Aslan territory and
much of the loss recuperated. It is a long trade link but here
the women are converting capital reserves into economic investment.
Considering the alternative is putting the money into military
hardware that is almost certainly going to get blown away it
is the better choice.
	So we have the Aslan pushing their goods in Glisten
sub-sector and creating an export market for Imperial goods.
An aid to this process are all the Aslan who have moved there
looking for land pre-rebellion quite peacefully which is
well documented. Don't just think of the Aslan males squatting
quite happily on their new sandboxes but again, for every
man there are several women conducting and setting up business.
	Ireland experienced something similar when it took in
400 of the Vietnamese boat people. Although they had no money
they came from a middle class background. In a country where
unemployment hits 21% in areas after five years not a single
one was not working. Most in businesses they had created
themselves
	If Imperials are reluctant to buy into the new Aslan trade
opportunities the recent settlers certainly will. And again,
many of the have settled quite peaceably and probably have
full citizen rights which enables them to act as a local agent
for the entrapenurial Aslan.
	The Imperium is unlikely to get too protectionist about
the trade either. With echoes of the rebellion bouncing around,
the markets are bound to be bouncy and domestic Imperial
investors cautious. People usually vote with their pockets and
if strong Aslan trade looks to bring chance for prosperity to
an otherwise depressed economy then it becomes a very attractive
option.
	So as Aslan trade influence waxes so too follows legal
and political influence. Generous donations to parties and
co-operation in paying taxes are likely to influence politicians
toward more favourable Aslan laws. More settlers? No problem.
Plenty of Aslan-Imperial cultural exchanges.
	More and more Aslan come. Invaders? No! Settlers! Lots
of nice press photos of local system defence navies welcoming
joint Aslan patrols of their system. With the uncertainties of
the Rebellion echoes doubtless self-defence is high on the mind
of many citizens with the pull back of components of the Imperial
fleet.
	The Alsan settle on previously uninhabited or unused areas
(check your charts, there's plenty). How do they support 
themselves? They just have to continue as the women started.
Running the economy. I've just been through Hong Kong, Taiwan and
Singapore on the little (!) business trip. You don't need
natural resources to be incredibly prosperous!
	The Hivers may excel in manipulation but you have to
remember: three quarters of the Aslan population (the women)
consider economics and corporate management as the elite profession
of choice. ("What do you want to be when you grow up, little girl?"
"I want to be a corporate investment strategist!")
	The Scout service may have marked Glisten down is being
controlled my the Aslan but it is likely that this would have
been a surprise to Glisten itself!


	The limousine picks up the Aslan husband from the domestic
spaceport and brings him to his house via a long circutorious
route across his new lands. His four wives await him on the veranda.
	He smells and blows bubbles in his tea. "It isn't quite
what I expected."
	All the wives look concerned in unison. "Are you displeased
in any way, my lord", asks #3.
	He concentrates, takes a long sip, and then tries to remember
what he was saying. "Well, I just thought there would be lots of
guns and things."
	Wife #1 steps forward. "My lord, I could not have your serenity
disturbed as such. The Imperials are not worthy opponents. We merely
arranged a leveraged takeover of some local interests with clan
capital and ..."
	"Pah", interrupted the husband. "None of this woman's talk."
He inhales his tea once again, his eyes surveying the landscape.
All his. "I wonder if there is good hunting..."
	The bird in the nearby cage gurgles.



Jo Grant. jo_grant@crd.lotus.com

------------------------------

Bundle: 625
Archive-Message-Number: 7840
Date: Tue, 31 May 94 20:53:15 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: All: More TCS vs. 5FW

Gentlesophonts:

"In argument, truth is discovered."
          -Russian proverb

I think we're narrowing in on some truths here.  Thanks to all who've been
*contributing* (as opposed to those who've just flamed).  :-)

From Thursday night (?), Hans Ranke <rancke@diku.dk> writes:

> Analyse the economic strength of the 30 billion people in the Sword Worlds. 

> Now match the figure you arrive at against 
> the figure TCS gives you and against the 42 battleships _RS_ gives you.
> Which is closest? By how many orders of magnitude?

Okay, this might work (but I ain't gonna do it!).  There seems to be much room
for variation here though.  Isn't the '42' *RS* figure already within two
orders of magnitude of what *TCS* might suggest (~5000 'capital' ships)?
I would guess the 42-ship figure itself already has something like a plus
or minus one order of magnitude uncertainty.  This particular course might
lead to nothing more than a flame war over assumptions.

> >What I'm asking is why you choose to accept *TCS* data over *RS* data?
> 
> They make more sense.

I guess I'd like to see something along the lines of what you've proposed
above rather than just a statement that asks us to accept this as a given.
Fortunately, Cynthia makes a stab at this in a bit.

> BOTH_TCS_ and _5FW_ are based on the same reality. A few simple calculations 
> show that that can't be true. Now what?

Good question.  I certainly don't have the answer!

> And you just the other day agreed with me that the only faintly reasonable
> explanation for this is that the Imperials blundered massively and didn't
> fight the ihatei with anything approaching an important Impy force.

Yes, I agreed.  So one course is just to say "A ha!" and congratulate
ourselves on catching GDW with their pants down around their ankles.  
Another, possibly more interesting, course might consider that Norris is
an even more incredible strategic thinker than we've thought and thus
he *conceeded* these regions to the *ihatei* knowing they could be 
assimilated and used later against the Vargr, or Lucan or whatever threat
Deneb (and later the Regency) might face.


Les Howie <lhowie@192.219.29.90> writes:

> Subject: Ship Designations
> 
> I am hardly a TLC cultist, but I do have an answer for that one: NO.

Hmmmm.  There seems to be some disagreement here.  Are we headed for the
great TCS schism?  :-)

> when I 
> start FF&S design, I plan to stuff the whole mess for a new set of functional
> designations that have some relation to real tactical employment.

I hope you'll share it with us.


Cynthia Higginbotham <CHiggin@aol.com> writes:

> As usual, most of my arguments are with Dave Johnson... :-)

Yeah, yours and everyone else's!  :-)

>     If you think the modern or future world has nothing to learn from 
> the military geniuses of the past,

Nope, I don't think this at all.  (I've read *Art of War* too and I liked
it so much I there's a Dolphin mercenary named Sun-Tzu Sharkkiller in my
Earth Colonies campaign.  Nevertheless, I don't think USMC commanders
have beheaded anyone who disobeyed orders lately!)  My point was that
much of what we accept today about the actual conduct of warfare will
change through seven tech levels even if many of the underlying concepts
are timeless.

> IT MAKES NO SENSE for worlds to build a tiny fraction of the 
> Navy they are capable of building, especially when their "lives, 
> fortunes and sacred honor" are threatened

Good points all.  As far as I'm concerned you've made the point that Hans
was suggesting above.  Can we go on now to figure out what a 'typical'
fleet and squadron in the Regency might look like?  Can we determine what
the total military (navy and army) forces of the Regency are?  This was
my intention way back when.

> >You know someone with 10,000 years of space combat experience?  :-)
> 
>     You're being silly.  I can go to my bookcase and pull out two 
> military works by generals dead over 2000 years

Yes, yes, I know.  I know the *Imperium* has this access.  What I was
questioning was your apparent claim that somehow we 20th Century Humans
(specifically you) had access to it as well.  I thought you had made this
comment in an effort to justify your claims about the 'reasonableness'
of your *TCS* figures.  If I just misunderstood you let's save the
bandwidth and just forget this particular point.  (Everyone take note:
if you hear no more on this point it means *I* was mistaken!)  :-)

> You asked this already.  In the same letter.  See above.

I kept asking this question because IMHO everyone was just saying we should
ignore the *5FW*/*RS* information merely because it contradicted *TCS*.
Being asked to accept that as a matter of faith was getting a little
tiring.

>     There is *at least* a one-day "jump lag" between you posting a 
> letter, and all the responses to it coming in.... and you asked this 
> question already.

Good point.  I'll try to keep this in mind and stay 'temporally 
synchronized'.  :-)

> >    What about types/classes themselves?  Is there some finer
> >breakdown than battles, cruisers, carriers, escorts, etc.?
> 
>     Yes. Tonnages are approximate, based on classes from Supplement 9,
> and from memory.  Classes are usually based on size and intended use.

Here it is again folks: the Great TCS Schism!  :-)  (Please, don't flame
me TCS-ites!  I really don't care whether there is or isn't a
breakdown.  It's enough to know there is no clear answer.)

At least we've got a 'fictional' religious group to insult now!  Curse
those blasted TCS-ites!  May they rot on the *5FW* board map!

But seriously, this has been some good work.  Thanks to everyone who
has contributed.  Maybe we can develop a consistent system:

>     And I have no idea what a Traveller Frigate would be good for 
> (spatial equivalent?)  In any case, the type names are chosen by the 
> military based on intended use, not by the designer.

This is in line with what Les said above.  Can we work out a series of
ship classes here based upon what he calls "real tactical employment"?

Peace,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 625
Archive-Message-Number: 7841
Date: Tue, 31 May 94 22:15:17 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: All: More TCS vs 5FW II

Gentlesophonts:

Steve Higginbotham(?) <JSHiggin@aol.com> flames:

>     Necessarily.  If you don't have orbital control, your guys won't ever
> get to the ground

I realize this is like talking about evolution to a creationist but when I
played *5FW* there were situations in which naval forces would enter a
system, land ground forces, and then have to face an opposing naval force
that subsequently jumped in system.  In the course of the battle the first
naval force could be forced to withdraw without retrieveing its ground
forces (BTW, this happened to the Sword Worlds at Lanth in the *official*
campaign).  The ground forces left behind had no 'aerospace' support from
their orbital elements.  If I were the ground commander in such a situation
I'd have liked to have had some way of dealing with that enemy fleet now
in orbit besides surrendering or hiding in a cave somewhere, thus, I'd
have landed attached aerospace forces of some sort.  (And this ignores
the fact that should I have managed to defeat that orbital force I might then
need some sort of air or sea lift capability to continue the planetary campaign
if my own naval forces have already jumped out system!)

> > It was these numbers that I used to estimate the Sword
> > Worlds naval forces at 42 ships.
> 
>     This is for the IMPERIUM ONLY!  Not for ANYONE else...

You're forcing me into "apples and oranges" again!  Why would I force the
Imperium to maintain *RS* protocol and then allow the Sword Worlds to
use *TCS*?  That's not only unfair, it's stupid!  I could have just as
easily used the *RS* methodology for Glisten subsector and come up with
a number for the 214th(?) Fleet that was similarly absurd to you TCS-ites!

>     So let's ask another question:  What makes you think *RS* qualifies
> as "strategic"?  Big picture is NOT the same as "strategic", fyi.

Let's talk English 101.  *FYI*, when someone places a word in quotation
marks (like I did with 'strategic' and 'tactical' *every time I used them*)
it's an indication that they are using the word in a non-standard way and that
it's meaning is suggested by the context of the text in which it appears.
Thus, I used 'strategic' and 'tactical' as easy ways of distiguishing
between the 'big picture', sector-level focus of *5FW* and *RS* and the
'little picture', ship-design focus of *HG* and *TCS*.

BTW, why the need to get so 'acrimonious'?

>     If you ignore TL, then EVERYTHING you say about the military situation
> in Trav is meaningless drivel...

Again, why the need to get so angry and insulting?  As far as this issue
is concerned, I find it more than a little irritating to have accepted a
point in one discussion for the sake of argument (in this case, Hans's
point about the Sword Worlds that tech level differences of one or two 
*aren't* that important) only to get *flamed* for it by someone else in
another discussion!  If you'd been following the discussion on Sword
Worlds technology, Steve, you'd have known that *I* think differences
of just *one* tech level *are* vitally important.

> > What I'm asking is why you choose to accept *TCS* data over *RS* data?
> 
>     Because RS is inconsistent with the reality presented in other places.

Let's talk Rhetoric 101.  This is what's known as a circular argument.

>     Yet Trav REPEATEDLY described successful invasions of worlds.  Several
> in the FFW, more in the Rebellion.  WHERE DID THE SHIPS COME FROM?

> Impy ship ever described that could move a division, though mention of
> assault transports was made)...

Here's some 'reality' for you.  There were several assault transport 
squadrons in *5FW* and these were exactly how large troop forces were moved
around.

Now, I'm not still trying to argue *5FW*/*RS* vs. *HG*/*TCS* (I've already
accepted Cynthia's and others' points) but I do hope you'll see that
there is no inherent value in calling for one source to be ignored *merely*
because it contradicts other sources!

> >>  There is no military use for them (any of Neubayern's Flower class
> >> escorts (of which there were more than a thousand) could take all ten
> >> SDBs at once.
> 
> > You're "mixing apples and orange".  Why would I choose to have a *TCS*-
> > generated aggressor fight a *5FW*-generated defender?
> 
>     No, I'm describing a SINGLE SHIP.  Designed using HG, which was the
> system used to design that SDB.  You are assuming that a ship designed
> under High Guard is somehow different than another ship designed using
> High Guard just because the one ship was designed for a TCS game, and
> the other was designed as a bit of local color for the Traveller game?
> Ridiculous!
> 
>     I'm not restricting you to ANY constraints.  I am using HG to design
> pirates, you are using HG to design SDBs (the one in question is the
> standard SDB from the Trav game (and Mt, and TNE, in different
> incarnations).  It has NOTHING to do with FFW.  FFW just provided the
> background for GDW to describe the SDB.  And if you'd like to design a
> BETTER SDB (using HG, or any other rules set) feel free.  It won't make
> a difference, any more than it would make a difference whether the US Navy
> used ten PT boats or ten Iowa class BBs to patrol the US coastline.  The
> problem isn't the capability of the patrol ship, the problem is the
> NUMBER of the patrol ships.  Keep in mind that your ten ships can only be
> TEN places at once...

[Sorry about this heavy quoting folks.  I tried to cut as much as I could
but the guy's flaming me and he's *way* off mark.]

I'll try to write it simply.

You say your escort *Pansy* can beat my ten SDBs at Regina.

You say this has nothing to do with the differences between *5FW* and *TCS*.

You admit that my problem is the *number* of my ships rather than their 
  individual capability.

I say:  THE FACT THAT THERE ARE ONLY TEN (10) SDBS AT REGINA IS A *DIRECT*
RESULT OF THE *5FW* RULES!  As we've already seen, if *TCS* rules were
used for Regina there'd be *a lot* more than just 10 SDBs there!  So,
please quit wasting everyone's bandwidth!

>     If the Imperium only fights for high pop worlds, how did they grab
> the Border Worlds from the SW?  Only one High Pop world there, so they
> shouldn't have touched any of the SW except Sacnoth...

And prior to occupying the Border Worlds the Imperial 214th Fleet
destroyed the Sacnoth Fleet at Sting!  (BTW, there are *three* hi-pop
worlds in the SW.  The Gram Fleet was defeated by the Imperial 213th
Fleet and the Narsil Fleet was defeated by the Darrians.)

>     As to "harassing", what harassment could those offer to a battleship?

Uh, suicide run around the 'high guard' during refueling?  Uh, forcing
some naval elements to remain in system to continue to protect ground
forces from SDB bombardment?  (Unless, of course, the ground forces had
attached aerospace elements.)

>     No.  We have people who like to do EXPERIMENTS!  Try it some time.

> Get off your lazy behind and
> FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF!

If you'll recall it was my 'lazy behind experiment' that came up with
the '42-ship' Sword Worlds fleet that started this discussion.  No one
has yet stated that this *5FW*/*RS* focus is inconsistent with itself,
merely that it doesn't jive with *HG*/*TCS* and some folks think the
latter makes more sense.

So again, why the need to get angry and insulting?

>     3)  And finally, neither of these sources is "strategic", which is

There you go again.  Maybe studying a little more grammar and punctuation
and a little less of the military would help?

>     You assume that GDW did more than arbitrarily decide the fate of the
> Ihatei and GListen, eh?

No, again, if you'd been paying attention you'd know that I've accepted
this.  What I've asked is that given this arbitrary decision can we
develop a reasonable rationale to explain it?  This has been a common
endeavor of much of the background discussion we've had here on the TML.

>     You seem unaware that strategy grows out of tactics/logistics/operations
> and that tactics grow out of strategy/operations/logistics.

No.  Again you are making assumptions about my knowledge of military 
affairs based upon your own ignorance of standard English style practice.

>     And you can't determine what one man/ship can do by looking at
> a strategic primer.

Fine.  So based upon your wondersous experience with *TCS*, what is the
structure of Regency naval forces in TNE?  How many squadrons are there,
what is their composition and deployment?  These are the sorts of ends
this discussion was directed towards.

> > What about types/classes themselves?  Is there some finer breakdown than
> > battles, cruisers, carriers, escorts, etc.?  Is there a way to tell a
> > frigate from a destroyer, etc. (besides what the designer choose to call
> it)?
> 
>     No.  The designer is the only one who knows what the proper label for
> something is.

Once again, evidence of the Great TCS-ite Schism!

> Vanishing down the corridor to XTML immediately, never to appear
> here again....

One wonders why I bothered to respond.  I guess if all you're going to do
is flame rather than contribute it's just as well.

Peace,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 625
Archive-Message-Number: 7842
Subject: 75:10/7715 Tech growth
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 30 May 94 23:18:00 -0500

Subject: 75:10/7715 Tech growth

T::>Right. I will give you those decades. I'll even make them centuries. So the
 ::>question becomes: Regina was TL 9 in 275. Why did Regina gain only one TL i
 ::>EIGHT centuries and two more in two decades?

 Hypothesis:  Because TL10 represents what I call a "catalyst" 
 point.  Once you have the ability to manufacture, locally, certain 
 things at TL10, it acts as sort of a "jump start" for later 
 technology.  Consider Earth itself - many millennia at stone, then, 
 a number of centuries at brass, then, a few centuries at iron, 
 then, once steel is discovered, the exponential curve becomes 
 apparent.  Perhaps TL9 is a sort of plateau, the limit of what 
 planetbound tech can achieve.  Then, you have to develop an 
 economical "maneuver" drive to get out to the asteroids, where it 
 becomes possible to discover the principles of jump drive.  Jump, 
 and the associated technologies, act as the next catalyst, and 
 those technologies build on each other, just like solid-state 
 computers built on vacuum-tube computers built on basic tube 
 electronics built on an understanding of electrical theory built 
 on observations of what happens when magnets interact with other 
 things...
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ QMPro 1.52 ~ Fatal error: size of thoughts exceeds available memory.

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Bundle: 625
Archive-Message-Number: 7853
From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc
Date:  1 Jun 94 14:28:39 
Subject: Son of Reprocessed Algae

Re: Cynthia Higgenbotham: Reprocessed Algae

Pathetically, I never got to go to Epcot Center.  I was terribly deprived
as a child.  I did get to visit Chester's Land of Desert Amusements here
in Tucson, which had fun, hands-on activities like the popular
"Lick the Hantavirus Rodent" exhibit.

In reality, I was using food as an over-simplified example.  What I was
trying to get at was that a perfect closed ecosystem does not exist, and
will not exist at TL15.  The problem might be due to trace elements missing
in food, or an inability to crack sufficient oxygen from ice asteroids in
the Glisten Belt; the cause is basically irrelevant.  The effect is that Glisten
might be militarily powerful, but still be unable to withstand a long-term
siege.  Entropy is just as powerful in  TL15 Glisten as it is in a TL8
Biosphere.   Think of it as punishment for living in a hollowed-out rock
instead of a proper world with an atmosphere.

However, the Aeroponics would be a very good idea for a Glisten type
closed ecology.  It would be far less unpleasant than Algae extracts, and
require less lifting power than a comparable hydroponics plant.   This
would make it more viable for starships as well as orbital habitats and
similar closed environments.   It would also be a nice scenic diversion,
almost a park-like setting for the tunnel and dome dwellers of Glisten. 

 And far more romantic than a walk past the algae vats.

PS - The Gestapo did have more stylish uniforms than the BATF.

None of the above reflects the views of my employers.  We dont have
stylish uniforms either.


------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 05 Jun 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #626: Msgs 7854-7871 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun Jun  5 22:00:03 EDT 1994
Reply-To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 05 Jun 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #626: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 626  7854 01-Jun-1994 Gregg Giles      FOR SALE: Traveller stuff << FOR SALE:
 626  7855 01-Jun-1994 Gregg Giles      WANTED: Traveller stuff << WANTED:
 626  7856 02-Jun-1994 Steven M Bonnev  Glisten; Aslan Spending << On Closed Ec
 626  7857 02-Jun-1994 James Kundert    REB: Ihatei << My take on the Aslan iha
 626  7858 02-Jun-1994 Arthur Green     Engineering crew sizes << Gentlesophont
 626  7859 02-Jun-1994 L.T.Bryant       ship crews MT-TNE << Greetings  again, 
 626  7860 02-Jun-1994 Peter H. Brento  IMP: Trappings of everyday life << New 
 626  7861 02-Jun-1994 gerald.s.willia  GEN/TML: Re: Subject Prefixes << Let's 
 626  7862 02-Jun-1994 Steve Charlton/  All: Tech Growth and TCS vs 5FW << Re: 
 626  7863 02-Jun-1994 Mark Urbin       Thruster Plate design question <<   I'm
 626  7864 01-Jun-1994 Jeff Zeitlin     X1:8/0031 GEN, ADM: Subje << Subject: X
 626  7865 03-Jun-1994 L.T.Bryant       2300/TNE- Firearms << Greetings all
 626  7866 03-Jun-1994 "Les Howie"      GEN,VDES:Sub-Oceanic SDB Concealment. <
 626  7867 03-Jun-1994 Roger Myhre      Re: Gvurrdon              << I posted t
 626  7868 03-Jun-1994 Roger Myhre      Crew and powerplant       << I must agr
 626  7869 03-Jun-1994 Steven M Bonnev  Re: Engineering Crews << Arthur Green <
 626  7870 03-Jun-1994 PSUAlum@aol.com  TNE: weapon designs << I'm in the proce
 626  7871 03-Jun-1994 "Tariq M. Rashi  Re: Some Drawings to give away << Hey a

------------------------------

Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7854
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 94 19:27:49 PST
From: ggiles@efn.org (Gregg Giles)
Subject: FOR SALE: Traveller stuff

FOR SALE:

World Builder's Handbook       $6
High Passage #3                $6
Far Traveller #2               $8
JTAS #5                        $8
JTAS #6                        $8
JTAS #8                        $8
JTAS #14                       $8
Supplement #2                  $5

Best offers considered. Email ggiles@so.efn.org - do not reply on TML.


- --
*******************************************************************************
Gregg Giles                                      "I program my home computer,
Volunteer Coordinator, Oregon Public Networking   lead myself into the future."
Sysop, Sensory Overload                          -Kraftwerk
*******************************************************************************

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Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7855
Date: Wed, 1 Jun 94 19:32:21 PST
From: ggiles@efn.org (Gregg Giles)
Subject: WANTED: Traveller stuff

WANTED:

Supplements 4, 5, 6
Adventures 2, 4, 5, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13
Traveller Digests 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13
High Passage 1
Far Traveller 1
JTAS 1, 2, 4
Challenge 27, 36, 38-45, 47-71, 73+
Alien Modules 2, 5
Robots (MegaTraveller book, not classic Traveller Book 8)
Spinward Marches Campaign
Grand Census
MegaTraveller Journals 1+

If you have any of these in good condition, please email ggiles@so.efn.org.
Please do not reply via TML.


- --
*******************************************************************************
Gregg Giles                                      "I program my home computer,
Volunteer Coordinator, Oregon Public Networking   lead myself into the future."
Sysop, Sensory Overload                          -Kraftwerk
*******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7856
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 01:37:44 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: Glisten; Aslan Spending

On Closed Ecosystems:

Steve Charlton writes:

>In reality, I was using food as an over-simplified example.  What I was
>trying to get at was that a perfect closed ecosystem does not exist, and
>will not exist at TL15.  The problem might be due to trace elements missing
>in food, or an inability to crack sufficient oxygen from ice asteroids in
>the Glisten Belt; the cause is basically irrelevant.  The effect is that
>Glisten might be militarily powerful, but still be unable to withstand a
>a long-term siege.

Hmm.  Yeah, there's no such thing as a perfect closed ecosystem, not even
a planet...there's some lossage somewhere.  But if you are implying that
Glisten, as a system, is dependent on, say, oxygen imports because too
much is being lost to outgassing, airlock inefficiencies, and so on, I'm
not sure I can go along with that.  There's just too many people there for
that sort of thing to work, I'd think.  Besides, how do you besiege an
entire asteroid belt anyway?  I suppose you could hold major population
centers hostage if you were ruthless enough....  I guess that I'm not 
sure your thesis is self-evident.

Although, come to think of it, Sirius/Dingir was supposed to be like that,
a system with all artificial or "imported" planetoids, moved there for
near-Earth starship traffic purposes, and it had ten million residents.
But that's still barely in the reasonable range for such things, I guess,
and the situation there is a lot different that at Glisten, which is a
big natural belt, mining, and industrial center. 

[DGP printed their version of Glisten in TD #15.  While I personally
 didn't like some details, like why they thought Glisten was named 
 Glisten, they bring up this issue.  Their call was that Glisten could
 be self-sufficient in a pinch.  Why?  Plenty of agriculture/aeroponics/
 hydroponics.  Actually, I can think of a few benefits to growing crops
 even in a traditional manner under a dome on some asteroidal regolith.]


On Norris' headaches, A to Z:  :)

[comments on the Vargr incursions deleted]
>This invasion was serious enough to allow the loss of Depot in Deneb
>Sector, a major source of IN reserve forces and equipment.

Are you sure you aren't confusing Depot-Deneb with Depot-Corridor?  I
thought Depot-Deneb was about four parsecs behind the lines.  If the
Vargr got that, I think all of Deneb sector would notice!  Besides, it
still had its entire security force, unlike Corridor.


[comments on Aslan spending practices deleted]
>The females are likely to be the scientific brains of the region,
>but the funding for scientific research will ultimately be controlled
>by the various (male) clan heads.  While the males will not concern
>themselves with financial details, they will expect a useful return on the
>investment of clan funds.

A clan ko worrying about clan investments in research?!  I don't want
to call you a tahiwihteakhtau, but no.  His wife will worry about that
stuff -- the ko can and *must* trust the clan's females's judgement in
all monetary matters.  Most Aslan males don't understand "return on
investment" very well, and even if the ko does, he can't exhibit such
knowlege in public for fear of self humiliation on a number of levels.

However, females do understand that war is an extension of politics by
other means.  Furthermore, the males do want effective weapons systems
in order to defend the clan and extend the territory.  The males just
don't care how much the weapons cost -- it falls to the females to 
explain what the clan can and can't afford.  So in that sense you are
correct that the males will have an influence on spending.  The males
know what they need to win a war, the females tell tham what they can
have.  

I'm also sure that the females long ago discovered that wars are usually
a lot more expensive than they're worth.  It's just that sometimes, the
code of honor makes warfare unavoidable.  Some wars just need to be
fought.  But the females understand the importance of basic research,
if they're any good.  Especially since if they find something new and
make money with it, then the clan can go *buy* land and not have to
fight for it.  This, for some reason, makes the males happy.  Aslan
are not Klingons.  

There's some other drains on Aslan productivity, in the industrial
sense.  The Aslan honor artisans and craftsmen, and prefer artistic
things, even battleships.  Also, they dislike using robots.  For both
these reasons, mass-production isn't quite the same in the Hierate
as in the old Imperium.  This also means that the Aslan view technology
and scientific studies more as a means to an end rather than an
end in itself; they aren't quite inquisitive in the same way as a 
Human or Hiver.  But with Humans and Hivers around, keeping up is a
end in itself.  So is surpassing them!  But one has to be careful of
setting off an arms race with the neighbors.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>

------------------------------

Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7857
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 94 00:21:17 PDT
From: James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
Subject: REB: Ihatei

My take on the Aslan ihatei issue.  First, some background:

Rebellion Sourcebook, page 60:
 "By mid-1117, it was clear to the Aikoho Earleatrais that the Imperium
was being torn apart.  At that time, an ihatei fleet which had
originated in Ealiyasiyw sector entered Trojan Reach in search of new
worlds; it was redirected to Imperial territory and was successful
in establishing a settlement within the Imperial border."

 And so on.

 Norris, faced with too many problems, delegated a Fleet Admiral to
"eliminate any threat to the Domain" that the Aslan caused.  To use
an infamous line, "when you have a hammer, all your problems start
to look like nails."  The Admiral had a fleet behind him.  By 1119,
he was applying this "hammer" to every Aslan nail he could catch,
not bothering to check his definition of "Threat to the Domain"
with Norris.
 In short, it didn't work.  By 1120, the Aslan had reached the region
so marked in the Player's Handbook and Imperial Encyclopedia.
  One thing to remember is that the map in the PH is a _snapshot_ of
the sector as of 001-1120.  Another thing to remember is the definition
of the Imperium's border: within this line, the Imperial Navy
_controls_the_space_lanes_.  As far as our hapless Admiral and the
Scout Service were concerned the Aslan controlled that space, because
the Navy certainly didn't.
  Barring a few violent incidents (the ones we all read about in the
TNS), the Aslan settled in where ever they found room to do so, and
promptly became reasonably good neighbors.  The majority of the
perceived threat vanished.  This didn't save the Duchess (?) of Egryn,
unfortunately.
  Why can I make the assumption of fading menace?  Because by late 1123
Norris feels comfortable enough with his rimward neighbors to send
the Arrival Vengeance in that direction with a reasonably good
chance of the ships' getting to Daibei.
  The map of the Vengeance's path also notes Frontier, Outlands and
Wilds.  The Frontier designation runs along the Imperial border all
the way up to Vilis subsector.  Based on this, the Sword Worlds and
possibly the Darrians are also having ihatei problems in the 1120s.

  From Arrival Vengeance, page 7:
  "Norris has used both naval force and diplomacy to attempt to
contain the Aslan ihatei. In its current role, Vengeance is primarily
concerned with the latter..."

  It is apparent that Norris has, by this time, realized the nature
of the "invasion".  While he can't stop the Aslan advance completely,
he is trying to direct it.  Flareups between land-hungry Aslan and
"dammit, I live here!" Imperials contribute to the Frontier rating.
Much of Glisten subsector is actually classified as Wilds, but I
suspect that this is due to the earlier violence more than
current threat.

  While we don't have any data on the next seven years, I can guess
the general trend.  An uneasy state continues between the incoming
Aslan and the Domain, very gradually improving, but with bad spots
and regressions fairly common.  On the other side of the Domain, the
Vargr are slowly running out of steam.  Norris looks forward to many
years of juggling the two groups with some dismay.  Then comes
the Arrival Vengeance, home at last; the "Regency Address" in 1127;
and, in 1130, word of the Virus.
  The moment the reality of Virus set in, the possibility of shifting
borders was gone.  Norris knew it, the Aslan knew it, and the Vargr
learned it the hard way.  The Zhodani had given up on shifting borders
over a thousand years ago.  The region behind the Claw became static,
border-wise, unless you were a very long way from the Quarantine
Zone.
   The Aslan probably returned to spreading along the edge of
the Great Rift, as well as boosting the manpower of the Regency.  The
spread of the ihatei is more slow and deliberate, and never violent,
because they don't dare fight each other with the Virus looking over
their shoulder.

James Kundert <j.kundert@genie.geis.com>
              <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>

There was a young lady named Bright,
Whose speed was much faster, much faster than Light.
She departed one day in a relative way,
And returned on the previous Night.
   --Albert & the Heart of Gold

------------------------------

Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7858
From: Arthur Green <ARTHUR@cclana.ucd.ie>
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 09:46:00 +0100
Subject: Engineering crew sizes

Gentlesophonts and those from beyond the Black Curtain -

    Well, here are the first results of my whiz through the various 
generations of Traveller rulesets looking for engineering crew sizes 
and believe me, it wasn't easy ...

I discovered that I actually have copies of CT (3-booklet set and The 
Book), Highguard, MT and TNE -- I thought I'd dumped at least one set 
of rules. Ah, the nostalgia of looking through the 3-booklet set once 
again ...

Anyway, comparing the number of engineers you need depending on which 
set of rules you use isn't easy. CT and Highguard use x engineers per 
displacement ton, MT uses some benighted formula using control points 
and FFS uses a figure based on peak power output. Trying to reduce this 
morass to a nice figure per tonnes mass or power output gets a little 
bizarre because of the MT formula. As a first cut, here are the 
engineering crew requirements for the "standard" starships as specified 
in CT, TB (the Traveller Book), MT and FFS.

Ship            CT  TB  MT  FFS
Type S scout    0   0.5 0.5 2(0)
Type A trader   1   1   1   4(2)
Type R merchant 1   1   2   5(3)
Type Y yacht    1   1   1   5(3)
Type C cruiser  4   4   3   5(3)
Type M merchant 3       2   7(5)
Type T cruiser      3   2   7(5)
Type L lab ship     2   1   3(1)
Type K safari       1   1

FFS figures in brackets are the number of non-manoeuvre crew required. 
It looks like engineering crew requirements have doubled in FFS.

I'll be producing figures on engineers required per tonne of drive and 
per MW produced as soon as I can get them to make sense ;-) 

 - Arthur Green
   University College Dublin Computing Services
   Phone: +353 1 706 2456  Fax: +353 1 283 7077  Email: arthur@cclana.ucd.ie


------------------------------

Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7859
From: cs5025@wlv.ac.uk (L.T.Bryant)
Subject: ship crews MT-TNE
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 13:57:25 +0100 (BST)

Greetings  again,  a  few ideas concerning  the  ship  crew  size
differences, follow.
	Could  it  be that the ship crews in  TNE  represent  the
fact  that  crewbeings can only do a 8 to 12 hour shift  on  duty
without fatige becoming a problem?
	Anouther  thing i noticed whilst comparing the  differnce
is  that the bigger the ship the larger the crew gap  is ,  after
discusionb  with  M Archer we propose that it may be due  to  the
difference  in  powerplant sizes, as the TNE plants  seem  to  be
bigger,  so  a scout ship gains 1 person and a cruser gains  (  i
think  sorry my memory fails here) 8 or 10 crew coupled with  the
above point this would seem resonable.

On  a differnt track onece i get confermation of the gun stats  i
posted  on the 31may/ 1 june ( again memory lapse) apper  i  vill
start  posting  the rest, Thank you to all who have droped  me  a
line  and the 2300 guns will be on there way soon (i hope).

	Not   wanting   to  draw  flames ,  Mearly   to   provoke
discussion, 

Lawrence Bryant
- -- 
oh rose thou art sick
               the invisible worm that flys by night.....STEEL


------------------------------

Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7860
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 94 10:19:05 CDT
From: Peter H. Brenton <pete@biochem.uchicago.edu>
Subject: IMP: Trappings of everyday life


New topic; What does the prosperous imperial citizen own that she/he 
would find indispensible in conducting everyday life?

Identicard:  The ATM/Credit Card gone wild.  This thing opens doors, gets
cash, debits your bank account for purchases, has your complete medical
history (yeah I know, I got that from an AT&T commercial), will get you
access from any computer terminal to your private records, identifies
you indisputably.  Less costly models have fingerprint scanner circuitry
built into the surface, more expensive ones use a chemical reaction which
is carefully tuned to identify your distinctive body chemistry.  The real 
cheap ones require a four to 10 digit security password.  Some terminals 
can accept voice ID or scan your retina, with the comparison data stored on 
the card itself.  Almost every security measure can be defeated, of course, 
but mostly they're pretty good.

Personal Electronic Manager:  Technology and fashion go hand in hand.  
If you doubt
this I ask you to take a walk into your nearest Sharper Image store, or go
to a high priced business lunch place downtown and look for young men with
their cellular phones out making high-profile calls.  In the imperial future
of tech fashion remember this; less is more.  Implanted microphone and 
speakers go into the jawbones of most every megacorp exec in the business.
along with this is the implant computer (doesn't matter where...inside a
titanium femur perhaps?).  This thing acts as Personal information manager 
extrodinaire, optimizes the comm signal with your multiplexer (actually the
only external component is a signal booster/receiver/antenna.  Some have an
antenna replacing part of their anatomy-the titanium femur again?), networks
with local information resources, monitoring market information, location/
condition of competitors or allies in business, etc.
	One limit to the implanted tech at TL15 I impose is in vision
systems.  At TL15 people wear eyeglasses, not for vision correction, but
as binocular holographic projection medium (identical to the holographic
eyepiece which originally appeared in Grand Survey or Grand Census-but
with two eyepieces).  Even TL15 doctors don't try to screw with optic nerves 
much.
	So everyone who's anyone is connected in the most personal sense
and can "hook in" to the 'net instantly, easily, seamlessly, and does so
as though it were second nature.  Those who are truly successful have only
the eyeglasses to betray their hook-ups, while the less fortunate have
pickups on their throat and sticky speakers behind their ears ("commdots").
	This connection is stilll quite expensive (from a personal financial
standpoint) I imagine it's about like having a computer today-lots of people
have them, but not everyone can afford them, and in general those who have
them have a specific use in mind.   On the other hand, the corporate world 
would provide them to all their execs.

Stylish Grav Vehicle:  Be it a Harley reproduced grav skimmer, or a Porche
2911 Hovercar, The Yuppie of the future's grav vehicle is a sign of her or
his status in society.  Most vehicles in my campaign used in an urban setting 
are "skimmers", capable of flight and wheeled travel.  For a long time one
character's most prized possesion was a Porche reproduction in Grav form
with retracting wheels (Modelled after the 944), Gull wing doors, and a 
vastly overpowered thrust system (btw, I considered a Porche body an airframe
for velocity purposes-is there any accuracy to that?). fun fun fun.
	Note that the individual's computer/display system integrates with 
the on-board computer of similar tech vehicles she/he is driving to provide
all the display information through the display headset the person is wearing.
This also prevents untimely phone calls while driving in traffic from taking 
over the display.
	I don't buy central traffic control systems "taking over" grav vehicles
either.  I think this would only happen in trans-continental or high-altitude 
ballistic trips (where adjustments are minimal in any case).  For local travel
the individual is expected to keep within established travel lanes both on the 
graound and in the air.

Ok, I've blathered enough.  Remember I'm talking about high tech, large pop
worlds with relatively free-type governments.  The picture changes quite a
bit with oppressive gov'ts, with TL down around 11 or so, etc.

P.S.  To my knowledge this is the first post to both the TML and the XTML.  It
seemed appropriate-is it?

------------------------------

Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7861
From: gsw@aloft.att.com (gerald.s.williams)
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 94 11:37:04 EDT
Subject: GEN/TML: Re: Subject Prefixes

Let's see if I can get this message through this time...

Our illustrious administrator writes:

>_____RULESET______ ______ERA_______  ________GENERAL________ ____DESIGN SIGS_>
>CT  Classic Trav   IMP 3rd Imperium  ANN   Announcements     VDES Vehicle Des>
>MT  MegaTraveller  REB Rebellion           Releases, Errata  WDES Weapon Desi>
>HG  High Guard     TNE The New Era   FLAME Flame/Hate Tirade CDES Char Design
>NE  New Era Rules  ____FICTION____   ADM   Administrivia     WDES World Desig>
>TCS Trillion       FICT Stories      GEN   General, non-     CAT  Computer Ai>
>  Credit Squadron  AHIS Alternate	   specific stuff
>FFS Fire Fusion &       Histories
>    Steel          GM   Scenarios
> 
>So folks, what do *you* think? [ ... ]

The more I think about it, the more I dread the proliferation of
categories.  Categories that are too specific will tend to cause
confusion and/or threads which expand and contract into different
categories (seeing half a thread, especially alternating messages,
can be annoying).

Perhaps you should go back to a much simpler list, at least for
the non-general stuff:

CT	Classic Traveller, includes HG, TCS, IMP
MT	MegaTraveller, includes REB
TNE	The New Era, includes NE, FFS
FICT	Fiction, includes AHIS
SCEN	Scenarios/Patrons/etc.
CAT	Computer Aids
DES	Designs, includes VDES, WDES(weapons), CDES, WDES(worlds)

SALE	For Sale/Trade/Wanted
FLAME	Flames (to /dev/null?)
GEN	General, includes MISC (see below)
ADM	Administrivia (see below)
ANN	Announcements (see below)

To make it idiot-proof, I would suggest allowing several aliases for
some categories.  For example, MISC should be an allowable alias for
GEN.

You probably don't want to allow people to unsubscribe to the ADM or
ANN categories.  If you wish, you can limit posting access to them
(or you can trust us--it may be useful to be able to post things to
the entire TML on occassion).  My interpretation of ADM/ANN is that
they should not carry threads (GEN would be used for that, or add a
TML thread for TML meta-discussions if you wish).

You will want to print the entire category list on every TML mailing
you send.  If the list is short, this shouldn't be a problem.  If it
is long, then the list is needed that much more.  Consider that when
designing the list.  With my list, the categories are obvious enough
that you can do it easily in one line (no need to show ADM/ANN):

TML Categories: CT, MT, TNE, FICT, SCEN, CAT, DES, SALE, FLAME, GEN

I really like the idea of allowing cross-posts by simply listing
multiple categories (eg: "CT/MT:" or "CT, MT:"), although I think
the TML digester will be a nightmare of a program.  Once again, to
make it idiot-proof you will want to allow several ways to list
multiple categories.  I would suggest converting any combination of
spaces, tabs, "and", "or", or non-colon punctuation into category
separators.

And one more thing to make the TML digester a REAL nightmare:

What some people will REALLY want is the opportunity to explicitly
EXCLUDE messages that are cross-posted to particular groups.  For
example, I might want all messages in the CT and MT categories that
are NOT also in TNE, or I might want to specifically exclude SALE
or FLAME messages, even if they are cross-posted.

============================================================

And on a relatively related note:

I remember reading something about a TML World-Wide-Web site.
Could someone give me the address?  We just got Mosaic up here and
I'd like to try it out.

    ,-----------------.
    |Gerald S Williams|
    |gsw@aloft.att.com|
    |  (610)712-7237  |
    `-----------------'

      _  |     ____/    _  |
     /   /    /        /   /
    /   /  ____ |     ____/
   /   /        /    /
______/  ______/  __/

 AT&T DSP tools development


------------------------------

Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7862
From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc
Date:  2 Jun 94 16:12:56 
Subject: All: Tech Growth and TCS vs 5FW

Re: Jeff Zeitlin & Tech Growth

Nice!  That was well thought out.  A sort of James Burke/Connections
view of Traveller TL.  For those poor souls who didn't understand that
reference, there was a late 1970s series from the BBC called Connections,
hosted by James Burke.  James would wear these amazing 1970s 
polyester suits and talk about how completely unrelated inventions and
events would act together to move the course of technology.  I think
it is now on The Learning Channel on cable - well worth a watch.

I have noticed there is another sort of plateau at TL13-15.  When you get
to TL13, you have made lots of major advances in various areas of
technology, but when you go from TL13 to TL14 and then onward to
TL15, the major effect seems to be a reduction in size.  At TL15, a few
new technologies appear, but are usually prohibitively large or
expensive.  TL15 seems to be the end of this plateau, and new technology
starts coming up more frequently at TL16.  I am basically looking at
starship and weapons technology for this statement (I am a bit
bloody-minded).  One question - does reaching such a TL Jump Start
add enough social stress to a society to make a Rebellion more likely?  Is
this a contributing factor to the Rebellion?

Re: David Johnson's TCS vs 5FW

If it comes to a choice between TCS fleet sizes vs 5FW fleet sizes, I would
have to pick the economy-jumbo-sized TCS fleets.  Not for any reason
of playability or historical realism, but mostly because I have too many
middle and high-ranking Imperial Navy PCs and NPCs in my campaign
to have anything less than several thousand warships in each sector.

Maybe the IN just has a high turnover rate.  Right-sizing strikes the 
Imperium.

In all seriousness, I do prefer the TCS numbers over the 5FW numbers,
if I am running a TCS-oriented campaign.  If not, I dont care too much,
but for consistency I use the TCS numbers anyway.  There is nothing
wrong with 5FW or RS, other than the fact that I had TCS first, and so
that was what I used.  Basically, if you like big fleets, you like TCS.  If
you like small fleets, you like 5FW/RS.  If you are happy either way, you
use whatever you first got access to.

I certainly dont see why suggesting 5FW force levels would generate
so much dismay.  Maybe there are some TML members who are major
stockholders in naval ship construction firms.  I thought your ideas were 
interesting, even if I don't use those figures myself.

scharlto@avalon.com

This does not reflect the views of my employers.  They own no naval
construction stock, and so do not care about fleet sizes.


------------------------------

Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7863
Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 21:53:43 -0400
From: eclipse@world.std.com (Mark Urbin)
Subject: Thruster Plate design question


  I'm designing a ship (a jump capable starship in my case) with
Thruster Plates.  I'm operating under the impression that the Thruster
Plates provide lift as well as thrust.  I know some folk have done
FF&S designs was thruster platers rather than CG & HEPLAR.  Could one
of you folks please tell me if I'm heading in the right direction?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Urbin -- eclipse@world.std.com -- These opinions are mine.
"As women and as lawyers, we must never again shy from raising our
 voices against sexual harassment." - Hillary Rodham Clinton, at a
 1992 American Bar Association luncheon praising Anita Hill.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7864
Subject: X1:8/0031 GEN, ADM: Subje
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Wed,  1 Jun 94 17:20:00 -0500

Subject: X1:8/0031 GEN, ADM: Subject Codes

X::>In order to be appear in the digest, messages must contain one or more
 ::>codes (listed below) embedded in the Subject line, seperated from the
 [...deletia...]

X::>_____RULESET______ ______ERA_______  ________GENERAL________ ____DESIGN
 ::>SIGS____
 ::>CT  Classic Trav   IMP 3rd Imperium  ANN   Announcements     VDES Vehicle
 ::>Design
 ::>MT  MegaTraveller  REB Rebellion           Releases, Errata  WDES Weapon De
 ::>HG  High Guard     TNE The New Era   FLAME Flame/Hate Tirade CDES Char Desi
 ::>NE  New Era Rules  ____FICTION____   ADM   Administrivia     WDES World Des
 ::>TCS Trillion       FICT Stories      GEN   General, non-     CAT  Computer 
 ::>  Credit Squadron  AHIS Alternate    specific stuff
 ::>FFS Fire Fusion &       Histories
 ::>    Steel          GM   Scenarios

 Oops!  Look in the DESIGN SIGS column (also, try to keep to 72 or 
 less...).  You are using the same code for two different "lists" - 
 WDES for both weapons and worlds.  I'd recommend dropping the DES 
 from all of the DESIGN SIGS entries, and go with VEH for Vehicle 
 Design, WEAP for Weapons Design, CHAR or N/PC for Character 
 Design, WRLD for World Design, and the current CAT for Computer 
 stuff.  As far as using them in both TML and XTML, I think this is 
 a good idea, and should eventually allow the remerging of the 
 lists.  At least initially, it might also not be a bad idea to 
 treat messages that come through with no code at all as though 
 they had GEN.  A really sophisticated system would be able to 
 accommodate a reference to another message, in several formats 
 (like the one I use), and be able to automatically prepend the 
 appropriate subject codes.  Don't try to get into this, though, 
 unless you have LOTS of time on your hands.

 Question:  How flexible are we on this?  Your example shows 
 prepending, but your text specifies only "embedded".  Would a 
 format such as "1:8/25 [FFS, NE]: How do I design a foobar" be 
 acceptable?  What about "1:8/25: GEN: Converting Quuxes from 
 GREPS"?  Or "Bazzleberries stink! \FLAME\"?  All of these meet the 
 qualification of embeddedness with separation from the rest by 
 non-alphanumerics, but they're all quite different.  Certainly, a 
 program that uses regular expression parsing (a la *ix grep) could 
 handle any or all of the above, but I have no idea of what you're 
 using at e.u.c.  Thus, the question...
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ QMPro 1.52 ~ All true wisdom is found on T--shirts.

------------------------------

Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7865
From: cs5025@wlv.ac.uk (L.T.Bryant)
Subject: 2300/TNE- Firearms
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 13:07:41 +0100 (BST)

Greetings all
 Follows  2300  weponry in the TNE style stop..... Hope  is  all 
useful stop...Style to give fun stop....Cant stop the stops...stop

40 mm 3 shot under slung GL
[  This is 40 not 30mm to allow the full range of  2300  grenades
to be used]
all grenades weigh .32Kg each
type		damage		pen(man)	vehicle	cost
HE		C4 B28		nill		nill    3.2Cr
HEAP		C2.64 B9.24      -		41 C    4.8Cr
Flechette	B23.2		1-nill		nill	16Cr
CHEM		C2 B2		nill			3.2Cr


HR-17 underslung grenade launcher
Attached launcher
action  SA
feed    Tubular mag
barrel length  2 calibers

Direct fire range  116m
IFR		   698m

wepon length  28cm
bulk  2

empty mass 1.8 Kg
loaded mass 2.76Kg

muzzle energy 2500 J

recoil  will be noted on attached weapon
 price 180 Cr


AS-89 TL12 gauss rifle

4.54mm round
round mass  0.647g
      price 0.0129 cr/rnd

Barrel length  43cm
barrel velocity 4300M/s
barrel mass    1.29 Kg
cost 	       774 Cr

Muzzle energy 5981.5 J
required energy 11963 J

Dam 5d
Pen 1-3-5

Reciver selective
ROF   5
reciver weight  1.19Kg
reciver length  34.58 cm
cost 142Cr

Bullpup rifle stock  0.1Kg  10Cr  5cm

range  136M

Feed   magazine 60 round
battery weight 4.3Kg
magazine Weight (empty) 4.33 Kg
magazine weight (loaded) 4.37 Kg
	cost 9 Cr
Optical sight  Range now 98M  0.1Kg  150Cr

Recoil  Gun 4/10  Gl 2
cost 1085Cr Length 82 cm   wt (6.75Kg)  9. 71Kg  with  Gl  Bulk5




FAM 90 TL 12 Gauss rifle
 4.5mm round
round mass  0.636 g 
round price 0.0127 Cr/round

Barrel length  28 cm
muzzle velocity 2800 M/s
barrel mass  0.84 Kg
barrel cost 504 Cr

muzzle energy  2493.12 J
required energy 4986.24 J

Damage 3d
pen  1-nill

Reciver  selective
ROF  5
reciver mass  0.499 Kg
reciver length 22cm
reciver cost  59Cr

Rifle stock 0.5 kg  30Cr  25 cm
short range 80M

Feed  magazine 60 round
battery weight  1.79 Kg
mag weight (empty) 1.82 Kg
mag weight (full)  1.85 Kg
mag cost 4 Cr

Optical sight short range now 92 M  0.1 Kg  150 Cr

Recoil gun 2/5  gl 2
cost  747  Cr  Length 75cm  weight (3.789Kg ) 6.549 Kg  with  GL 
bulk5
  


Thats all for now folks
more to follow
L Bryant



- -- 
oh rose thou art sick
               the invisible worm that flys by night.....STEEL


------------------------------

Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7866
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 94 10:16:55 ADT
From: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@192.219.29.90>
Reply-To: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@Prograph.Com>
Subject: GEN,VDES:Sub-Oceanic SDB Concealment.

How do you submerge an SDB to hide under the world's oceans?  Sorry if this has
come up on the list before, but the red light just came on for me last night.

The TNE 400 Ton SDB has a volume of 5600 m^3, and a laden mass of 4886.17
tonnes, for a specific gravity at 1G of .86.  It Floats!  (Dorsal surface
probably awash, but she is NOT going under.)

Now, I have not seen anything in the rules for using Contra-Grav for making 
things heavier, so the base design is probably not going under water.

Clearly, any SDB designed to submerge must either be designed for it (ballast
tanks, probably some sort of prop. thrusters) or be locally modified (put
that crate of lead in stateroom three, and strap it down good!)  

Just a thought, maybe a nasty to pull on some players who havn't thought 
things though.

Les Howie
Prograph International


------------------------------

Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7867
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 16:17:18 +0200
From: Roger Myhre <myhre@oslonett.no>
Subject: Re: Gvurrdon             

I posted the Gvurrdon Sector data to Sunbane, into the Donations folder
as I was instructed by some friendly soul a few weeks ago. IF nothing
turns up I'll post them again directly into the Traveller area on
Sunbane if that is possible. But I would like to get a seperate
directory for them, when I plan to put up more HIWG docs into Sunbane.

I would like to know if this is possible to fix. I sent an email to
dan@engrg.uwo.ca and requested this when I put up the files, but haven't
heard anything from him.


 'til then,
Roger "StarWolf" Myhre
                                                                                             

------------------------------

Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7868
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 16:17:18 +0200
From: Roger Myhre <myhre@oslonett.no>
Subject: Crew and powerplant      

I must agree with those who has posted before me that there are nothing
that justify the increase in the crew number from MT to TNE. I must
confess that I like the TNE rules, except for a few minor quirks that I
steamroll over with some house rules :)

A modern tanker today barely got 2 dozen crew members, and often less. A
200 ton craft needs somewhere between 5 to 9 crewmembers depending on TL
and design. Far too many, especially when the craft is intended to be
used for players. And not all players like to have starship skills
either. Thus extra hands have to be hired, which means less space for
cargo and fuel when the accommodations has to be made for the extra
personell.

One other thing that eat up space is the powerplant. Where did the size
modifier go? I think someone asked this before. If GDW read this list,
I'ld appreciate an answer on these questions.


Roger "StarWolf" Myhre
                                                                                                                            

------------------------------

Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7869
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 09:28:11 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: Re: Engineering Crews


Arthur Green <ARTHUR@cclana.ucd.ie> writes:

[engineer comparison table deleted]
>It looks like engineering crew requirements have doubled in FFS.

It's actually worse, and might be worst of all at lower tech
levels, depending on how the computer multiplier comparisons
work between MT and TNE.  In TNE you have "Engineers" who are
calculated based on the power produced by your power plant and
your computer multiplier.  You also get "Maintanance" crew 
that are calculated based on, among other things, drive tonnage.
So the whole question is complicated by differing definitions
of what an engineer is.  I suspect that the maintenance crew
requirements have also risen, but I don't have FFS with me right
now.

One of the effects this new rule has is that high-tech power 
stations will have computers built in to reduce the number of
engineers required to run them.  Otherwise, your 5000 MW tech-17
antimatter plant requires the same number of engineers to run
as your 5000 MW tech-5 steam boiler.

Incidentally, one of the things that is good about FFS is that
they've dropped those awful control point calculations from the
rules.  One thing I find annoying, however, is the inconsistency
of units for calculations.  Sometimes the rules call for cubic
meters, sometimes kiloliters (which are the same thing) and 
sometimes for displacement-tons, for instance.  You have to stay
pretty alert to avoid making stupid errors.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7870
From: PSUAlum@aol.com
Date: Fri, 03 Jun 94 15:05:38 EDT
Subject: TNE: weapon designs

I'm in the process of designing a Marine HQ/Support craft for use on a
company (or MCAT) level.  As part of that design I've worked up a few
weapons which I will detail below.  If there are any glaring errors I or
even ordinary comments I would appreciate hearing from you.

TL14 Point Defense Fusion Cradle Gun (PDF Gun)

This is designed as a multi-role gun capable of being used as point
defense against incoming missiles as well as being used as a medium-
sized ground weapon somewhere between a FGMP and Grav tank main
armament.

Fire Control - EMS RF and TL14 Ballistic point-defense computer
                                         (diff mod 5)
TL14 2 Mj PFC Cartridge: 0.004 kL (radius = 27.8mm, length = 166.8 mm)
                         3.2 kg, Price = 16Cr
TL14 Fusion Cradle Gun with Autoloader and Advanced stabilization and 	
	above fire control electronics
	Mass = 307.2 kg		Vol = 140.159     Price = 1.19496 MCr
	Short range = 100 m	ROF = 1
	Damage Value = 16		Penetration - rating: 0.5 - 1 - 4
							          32  - 16 - 4

- -------------------------------

TL14 Bay Mounted Meson Gun

This meson gun is designed for use as an indirect fire weapon to support
ground forces but can also be used for defense against enemy space craft
in orbit and close to a world as well as for use when the craft it is
mounted on is in space.

	7.5 X 12 m     SA = 91.2 sq m     Eff length = 14.4 m
	Disharge Energy = 20 Mj     Input Energy = 100 Mj
	4 kl homopolar generator    Power Input = 5 MW
	1 crewman with normal workstation, 30000km beam pointer, indirect
	  fire sights, and fire direction center
	Vol = 700 kl     Mass = 23.4 tonnes     price = 2.042 MCr
	Combat Ratings:
				Short		Medium	Long	   	Extreme
	  Range		14400 km	28800		57600		115200
	  Damage Value	22		11		6		3
	  ROF: Planetary = 1/4     Space = 100

	


PBJuzyk                             | 'Most plans don't even survive
Reading, PA                         |  contact with Reality'
Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8) |   -Hammer Lanthrop, *Smash & Grab*


------------------------------

Bundle: 626
Archive-Message-Number: 7871
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 15:46:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Some Drawings to give away

Hey all!

I recently came across a bunch of drawings I had done in WPG form. 
I have them in *.eps form zipped up into one 80KB file.  There are about 
ten drawings of vehicles of various types.  Ive already loaded it into my 
account and would gladly E-mail the file to anyone who wants it.

Adio
Tariq



------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 94 22:00:04 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #627: Msgs 7872-7894 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Wed Jun  8 22:00:03 EDT 1994
Reply-To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Jun 94 22:00:04 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #627: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 627  7872 03-Jun-1994 "Tariq M. Rashi  TNE:Adventure Module << Here is part of
 627  7873 03-Jun-1994 "Tariq M. Rashi  Re:MISC:Campaign Module (fwd) << Here i
 627  7888 06-Jun-1994 Joseph Heck      WWW page for the TML/Traveller << Howdy
 627  7889 06-Jun-1994 Steven M Bonnev  FFS: Battleship Armor! << FF&S/BL Disco
 627  7891 07-Jun-1994 BORIS ZAIDFELD   FGMP-16 Newsletter << Hi there,
 627  7892 07-Jun-1994 PSUAlum@aol.com  GEN/TML - Subject prefixes << GEN/TML -
 627  7893 06-Jun-1994 George Herbert   Sold something... << GDW just (finally)
 627  7894 07-Jun-1994 "Les Howie"      Re: TML nightly: Msgs 7884-7889 V75#19 

------------------------------

Bundle: 627
Archive-Message-Number: 7872
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 16:04:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Subject: TNE:Adventure Module

Here is part of the module from my Campaign
If you dont find it useful, may you at least find it interesting reading.

Tariq




                   Rachland Notes           
                     PC Notes   

         The PCs are dispatched to the unusual world of Rach to
investigate the disappearances of a couple AAROVs(Automated
Agricultural Remotely Operated Vehicle) as well as the loss of
contact with a Maintenance Team.  A couple of local authorities
who went out to investigate found mauled bodies.  They looked
like something mean and sharp had been at work.  The mission is
to launch an investigation first into the disappearances of the
AAROVs as well as a side investigation regarding the Maintenance
team.  The local office chief is really leaning hard on Amura to
get to the bottom of this.  Amura will stress that If they cannot
make progress on a timely basis, HQ will probably be called in. 
The agri facility is very important to Piedmont(Nearby City) so
the PCs can expect good cooperation from the local authorities.   

                    Background  

Unique factors such as atmospheric and soil composition in many
low lying areas of Rach create ideal environmental for certain
crops that do extremely well.  Rach in fact produces a large
yearly surplus of food that is a major source of export income. 
The problem lies in the fact that the air near sea level is very
dense. (About 2 atm) and the Sea and ground at these altitudes
are racked by extremely severe Storms.  Winds of 200km are not
uncommon and constant rain is a fact of life.  Humans generally
find this very uncomfortable and so a great deal of effort has
been put into automating agriculture.  This is where NSC comes
in.  They perfected an automated agriculture system that included
ROVs but also a way of shielding the crops from some of the more
vicious storms.  Sort of a grav repeller.  Only the whitecoats
are sure about how it works.  This combined with extremely hardy
crop types has led to a great deal of success for NSC on Rach.    

                      Mission Details  

Travel to Rach aboard available transport whether that be NSC
charter, NSC owned and operated or Commercial with equipment. 
Depending upon means of travel make way to Piedmont and make
contact with local coordinator Joel Ghiel, who will arrange
accommodations and transport intracity and to the facility.  Do
not discuss the investigation with individuals not assigned to or
included in this investigation.  You are to familiarize yourself
with NSC operations and the local authorities and then proceed to
the Piedmont Edge Agricultural Facility by Grav Shuttle to
continue your investigation.  The On scene Crew Chief (Lathan
Devers) will fill you in on the details and provide what
assistance he can.  You will board at the facility as needed.  We
hope that you will be able to put one of our most successful
projects to date back on its best footing for the Company, and
for the People of Rach.  After your successful completion of the
investigation contact Joel Ghiel for further information and make
way to HQ on Arizona Dawn for debriefing and some well earned
reward.
               Referee Only   

The situation on Rach is somewhat complicated but here is an
effort to illuminate it.  The recently chartered Unified
Planetary Sphere is actively expnding outwards.  It is an effort
to consolidate the worlds of the immediate region.  Many would be
members support this but others do not, especially those who are
liable to lose power by having an extraworld authority to answer
to.  In fact they are willing to go to considerable lengths to
prevent UPS consolidation.  NSC being a UPS chartered corporation
and Based on Arizona Dawn, one of the two core planets has become
a side target for an organization known as the Free Indigenous
Rachland Solidarity TaskForce or FIRST.  It is mostly a
legitimate political organization but members have resorted to
illegal and extreme activities.



------------------------------

Bundle: 627
Archive-Message-Number: 7873
Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 16:10:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Subject: Re:MISC:Campaign Module (fwd)


Here is a module from a campaign Im using.  Our actual campaign went 
differently (very differently).  Note that in my subsector the VIRUS 
exsisted but not nearly to the degree in the official GDW script.  It 
contributed to technological decline but nearly so much as the rebellion 
itself.  It has been more or less eradicated except for a node here and 
there.
If you dont find this useful, I hope its at least interesting

Tariq

                    ADVENTURE START ON PRIMA
D: PC                                  
                         BACKGROUND

Slogans and Posters cover the walls and fill the public viewing
screens encouraging individuals to join the reunification effort. 
To join the destiny of the people to establish empire in this
region of space and mayhaps over the whole of what was known as
the third Imperium.  A speaker exhorts, "Surely the ability of
'The people' to resist the ravages of the Rebellion and to rise
above the chaos of our times so swiftly is a sign that they are
destined to do this thing.  Now the time is right for the push. 
Those who yet manage to hold on will soon be relieved and those
who have fallen will soon be rescued.  'The people' on the edge
of the great rift are of the right stuff for this task.  Every
individual should feel the manifest destiny of the tasks which
lay before us.  And every individual should wish to be a part of
this bold effort."
        
       Incessant propaganda covers visi boards and is posted on
streetside sign columns.  A giant VisiBoard can be seen for many
blocks with the face of the Technology minister giving a speech
on the virtues of Trade and exchange Protocol for all civilians. 
This switches to a speech by Admiral Iruban with slides of Some
Ships of the Unification Fleet.  Today the fleet officially sets
out on its initial excursion (Lead elements have been out for
years) and Great Fanfare surrounds the event.  A parade of
Marines and Sailors makes it way down the street.  Music plays
and an assembly is planned at the Starport.        UP workers
press Literature into the hands of the Passerby and PC alike and
wax on the Virtues of the Party and the PC's usefulness to it.
(If the PC has expressed anti expansion/unification sentiments
then UP agents will watch them casually).  Security troops
surround vital communications points as well as near the
Starport. (Terrorist threats).  Further from the Fanfare Lobbyist
and Demonstrators for the Nemon Nation's League will plead for
the besieged nation.  (If they get too vocal Security may break
this up.)

                         Nemon Recruiter 
Away from the Parades the scene is slightly more subdued.  A
Skilled recruiter from the NNL will approach a PC to ask for help
in forming a cadre to take to Aurigae.  He will offer decent pay
but nothing great.  He will brief the PC on the situation in an
effort to recruit him.  Every PC should be approached as the
recruiting effort has some size to it.  However Union Intel is
aware of these efforts and has agents attempting to curb the
efforts of the NNL subtly.  PC's may get caught up in this.  The
recruiters will try and set up a meeting.
 

                        Amura of NSC   
Amura of NSC is trying to contact some of them for a team she is
setting up.  The Corporate Action Team as she calls it.  (Due to
the uncertain nature of frontier and outsystem operations she
felt a technically trained sort of strike/investigative team
would be needed,  NeoGov OK'd it on a trial basis)  It is her
idea and her project so she has a very keen interest in seeing it
work.  Sometime before the PC's meet the recruiters she will set
up a meet with one or two of them for 10 days in the future,
specifically on day 11.  She encourages them to bring any
individual who the PC's think are qualified.  She is prepared to
offer 2KCR((+Skl-4)x250) every 30days plus bonuses.


                      The Nemon Meeting 
The PC's will go to the arranged meeting spot and either the
recruiters will be killed by Union agents who have been tailing
the PC's or be dead when they get there with a note warning them
not to work with the "insurgents".  If they have tailed the PC's
they will kill the Nemons in such a way as to not be found(Poison
Darts most likely) but will get buck if necessary, they will
avoid attacking the PC's and will run if it comes to that.  They
have a TL 9 Roadster nearby to make their escape. 

                          What Now?
With one possible Patron dead It will be up to those in the know
to tell the others about the meeting with Amura.  Until then the
PC's are free to do as they like.       This may include going to
Tinan to spend some money(Weapons) or Staying in Neo for the same
purpose(Vehicles).  (The price is right!)

They might choose to investigate the Murder of the Nemons.  Maybe
some local contacts will have the answers.  An extended
investigation may even reveal the culprits before they try to
kill the PC's.  If so they will try to leave the planet on a
jumpliner to Aurigae.     (Page on this-Who killed the Nemons?)

Investigate other Employment Opportunities.  Many postings for
Ships Troops as well as Trader crews.  A lot of ads extol the
virtues of establishing civilization on some rebellion wasted
balls.  Land Grants are being offered by the "Governments" of
these worlds.  Join the Unification Colonization Corps!  Some of
these might be worth further investigation. (Paragraph on each) 
(Job Opps for Bored PC's)
 

                            The Meeting with Amura of NSC

The PC's will be asked to come to regional HQ on Neo for the
meeting.  It is only 100 km from the City and less than 20
minutes by train.(The Old Line a new grav line is building.  It
is rumored that it will be a 1000kph train with Inertial Comp and
Everything stations will be about 150km apart)  They can drive if
they have a car and a permit.  The train station is about 10km
from the complex and an aide will be waiting with a Limobus to
pick them up.  (And possibly Union Agents if they have been
overly careless).  (Mostly propa on the Radio) There is only one
small tower (10 floors+4 underground) and several 3 level
assembly buildings.  The Limo will enter an underground driveway
about 0.5 Km long to a parking deck.  Amura will meet them their
with another aide.
                                     Orientation
They wont get much of a tour of the facility but there will be a
breakfast and some orientation session/interview(2 hours).  A
general exam will be given (1 hour) and then break for lunch. 
Afterwards aides will detail the training schedule.  Company
hiranks will come by and sit down for a while every now and then. 
It they still wish to continue they will be asked to complete
some paperwork and receive some materials among them a temp ID
badge.  There is no commitment until the 22nd day of training. 
Those who sign up will be given pagers and an assembly date of
17-1201
                                          
                                Post Orientation

After this there is a dinner and networking gathering.  Amura
will be shooting her bow at targets and will invite competition. 
A couple of target pistols are available.  They will be driven
back to the train station for the ride home.  They can do as they
choose for now.  See side adventures.  Near the end of this
period one of the PC's will be contacted regarding a possible
inheritance and that he should get in contact with someone.  This
is an important but not urgent matter.  The PC's should use this
time to resolve anything that can be wrapped up but try to stay
out of trouble.  NSC does not want convicted criminals.  

                                      Ship Out
A couple of days before their contact day they are told to go to
Starport B to meet a Charter Jumpliner to Tinan.  Their temp ID's
will serve as Boarding passes.  The passengers are all would be
trainees(About 40).  Amura and a couple of aides are also aboard. 
It is a Jump-1 trip to Tinan.  Anything that happens aboard the
ship will either be the PC's own doing or High Strung trainees.


                                    Arrival Tinan
They should go by the high port to show it to the PC's "You'll be
doing a good part of your training there" but the ship will land
at the complex.  they will be barracked in double occupancy
rooms(comfortable) and given uniform sets.  For the first 21 days
they can leave the complex on off days or on evenings.(Nearby
town of 40 000)  If they get in trouble this may be limited.  

                                  Training Schedule
Day 0        Arrival Date of 24
Day 1        Orientation
Day 2-5      Administration
Day 7-8      Off
Day 9-13     Organization and Operations
             Corporate Legal
Day 14-15    Off
Day 16-20    Economics
Day 21-22    Off Sign to Commit by Day 22  Leave for Orbit Base
22
Day 23-27    Spacehand and Space Vessel(Intro)
Day 28-29    Off (Independent Study)
Day 30-34    Astrogation
Day 35-36    Off (Ind Study)
Day 37-39    Engineering
Day 40-42    Technical
Day 43       Off
Day 44-45    Technical 
Day 46-49    Return to Tinan-Medical
Day 50       Off
Day 51-52    Medical
Day 53-57    Leave
Day 58-64    Return to High Port-MoonBase/Vacc Survival
Day 65       Off
Day 66-70    Vacc Survival
Day 71-72    Off
Day 73-77    Zero-G Survival-High Port
Day 78-79    Off Return to Tinan on day 79
Day 80-93    Land Survival
Day 94       Off
Day 95-99    Wrap Up
Day 100      Graduation

Expected Graduation Date  125-1201
         
		NSC Training and Skill Development

Skill represents the skill gained.  Difficulty is the level of
the Test required to gain the skill or an additional level if a
character already possesses it.  If an outstanding success is
rolled then the character receives and additional level.  The
attribute/asset list show what attributes or assets are
applicable.  In rolling a player may choose to test the average
of the  attributes or the Asset alone.  If any character already
posses a level 2 or greater in a skill he/she is unlikely to
learn much from this general training.  The difficulty level
becomes one level higher.  For characters with a level 4 or
higher the difficulty level becomes another level higher.  

Skill             Difficulty           Attributes/Asset        

                 
             Economics/Academic
Admin/Legal-0      Average             INT,EDU/AdminLegal      
Marketing-0        Average             INT,EDU/Marketing        
Farming-0          Difficult           INT/Farming
Liaison-0          Average             INT,EDU/Liaison
Instruction-0      Average             INT,EDU/Instruction      
               
		SpaceHand/Vessel
Environ Suit-0     Average             CON/Environ Suit
Sensor Ops-0       Average             INT/Sensor Ops
Survey-0           Average             INT/Survey
Astrogation-0      Difficult           INT/Astrogation
Zero-G-0           Average             AGL,CON/Zero-G          
Construction-0     Average             INT,EDU/Construction    
		
		Technical
Communication-0    Average             INT,EDU/Communication    
Computer-0         Average             INT,EDU/Computer
Mechanic-0         Average             INT,STR/Mechanic
		
		Medical
Diagnosis-0        Average             INT,EDU/Diagnosis       
Trauma Aid-0       Average             INT,EDU/Trauma Aid
		
		Vac Survival
Navigation-0       Average             INT/Navigation
Map-0              Average             INT/Map
Zero-G-1           Average             AGL,CON/Zero-G          
Env Suit-1         Average             CON/Env Suit            


		Land Survival
Slug Weapon-0      Average             STR/Slug Weapon
Willpower-0        Average             INT/Willpower
Climbing-0         Average             CON/Climbing
Navigation-0       Average             INT/Navigation
Unarmed Mrtl-0     Average             STR/Unarmed Mrtl Arts   
Survival-0         Average             INT/Survival
                                  
               Incidental Skills
Leadership-0       Difficult           CHR/Leadership
Observation-0      Average             INT/Observation
Pilot Grav/Inter-0 Difficult           AGL,INT/Pilot

Carousing          Average             CHR/Carousing

		Training Module
Their will actually be no role playing during training except on
leave.  Any referee initiated events will be limited to
encounters with recruiters or with others in town.  PC initiated
events may include travel to Neosol.                              





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Bundle: 627
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Archive-Message-Number: 7881

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Bundle: 627
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Bundle: 627
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Archive-Message-Number: 7885

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Bundle: 627
Archive-Message-Number: 7887

------------------------------

Bundle: 627
Archive-Message-Number: 7888
From: ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu (Joseph Heck)
Subject: WWW page for the TML/Traveller
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 13:10:36 -0500 (CDT)

Howdy.

Hopefully, this will slip past the ick that's been infesting the TML lately...

I've finally reestablished a server & pages for the TML/Traveller on the
World Wide Web. They include links to the GDW-Beta server, as well as links
to all the archives about the place (at least, the one's I know of - through
the TML instructions & such). Plenty of details - more to follow as I can...

the URL is : http://www.missouri.edu:80/~ccjoe/traveller/

Enjoy, and make any suggestions you like!
- -- 
 joe                          (314) 882-5000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    University of Missouri - Columbia  
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 imprenetrable fog!" -- Calvin
 <A HREF="http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe">ccjoe</A>

------------------------------

Bundle: 627
Archive-Message-Number: 7889
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 18:03:54 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: FFS: Battleship Armor!

FF&S/BL Discoveries, Part III

ARMOR RATINGS and the IMPERIAL NAVY SHIP-OF-THE-LINE

I just gained enlightenment on another shift in the rules which
should interest battle fleet naval architects.  This one is related
to starship armor factors on very large ships.

In _Brilliant Lances_, there is a design for a 1000-ton TL15 
Imperial Navy DE, the _Chrysanthemum_-class.  It is a close structure
with armor factor 62, which comes out to 2.214 cm of bonded super-
dense armor at a volume cost of about 0.62 % of the ship.  I decided
to scale this percentage for a 500000 d-ton sphere, to see what sort
of armor we might expect to see on a _Tigress_-size battleship.
(It's not quite fair, since the DE loses some mass to configuration,
but that isn't really vital for this argument.)

It turns out that at 0.62 % of ship volume, the _Tigress_-size ship
can carry some 25.087 cm of bonded superdense armor, for an armor
rating of 702.  This is 2.25x the amount of armor needed to stop a
standard TL15 150MJ beam laser dead.

If one is willing to armor an expensive battleship a little better 
than a DE, at 1.77 % of ship volume you can have 71.5 cm of bonded
superdense armor plating, and an armor rating of 2002.  This is just
sufficient to stop a TL15 500 kT nuclear detonation x-ray laser dead.

Note that either value is sufficient to stop any of the "pea-shooter"
class PAWS in _Brilliant Lances_.

These armor ratings are very definitely not ridiculous.  If anything,
they may turn out to be conservative.

It looks to me like the lighter weapons are really only useful for 
anti-missile fire or to try and scrub the communications and sensory
antennae off a ship.  The only other thing I can think of doing with
them is to try to saturate a big ship's anti-missile defenses and get
a fusion weapon right up next to it.  So I suppose the *really* big 
ships like the _Tigress_-types will depend more on what we'd currently
consider very heavy weapons to do any real damage to the enemy line.
I have no idea what sort of power the TNE equivalent to the meson-T
delivers on target, but it is probably massive.  The big ships will
need to depend on heavy bays to back up the main gun, though, since
the turrets and "pea-shooter" spinal mounts on escorts won't do much 
good.  I'm not sure if the 100-ton bays can cut it; I haven't checked.

As for the _Chrysanthemum_ in a fleet action, well, I guess it really
is a cheap "tin can".  I suppose it's supposed to be an SDB hunter
and commerce cutter.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>

------------------------------

Bundle: 627
Archive-Message-Number: 7890
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 94 22:27:31 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: All: Techno-economics & SW Political Theory


------------------------------

Bundle: 627
Archive-Message-Number: 7891
Date: 	Tue, 7 Jun 1994 00:27:22 -0400
From: BORIS ZAIDFELD <cs911408@red.ariel.cs.yorku.ca>
Subject: FGMP-16 Newsletter

Hi there,
      Does anyone has any information about FGMP-16 Newsletter?  I saw
an ad for it in Challenge 72, and i was wondering if anyone sub. to it and
any other information.
      Thanks,
              -Shalom Zaidfeld



------------------------------

Bundle: 627
Archive-Message-Number: 7892
From: PSUAlum@aol.com
Date: Tue, 07 Jun 94 00:33:08 EDT
Subject: GEN/TML - Subject prefixes

GEN/TML - Subject prefixes

re. gsw@aloft.att.com (gerald.s.williams)'s discussion of categories:

I agree entirely with Gerald's dread of category proliferation and feel
that his reduced category set is well thought out with the exception of
alternate histories.  Possibly AHIS could be placed under scenarios or
may maintain its own category.  Perhaps a test drive (or compilation of
categories in which messages currently posted would fall might be
enlightening.  As long as there are not many AHIS posts to interfere
with those interested only in fiction (or scenarios) or vice-versa it
could be combined otherwise a separate category may be a necessity.


Peter B Juzyk                       | 'Most plans don't even survive
Reading, PA                         |  contact with Reality'
Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8) |   -Hammer Lanthrop, *Smash & Grab*


------------------------------

Bundle: 627
Archive-Message-Number: 7893
Subject: Sold something...
Date: Mon, 06 Jun 1994 23:29:57 -0700
From: George Herbert <gwh@crl.com>


GDW just (finally) mailed me and bought two of the adventures for TNE
I mailed them right before I changed jobs lo these 6 months ago 8-)
I am relieved to hear they got there.

I guess they've been a little busy, but they're still there and in
business buying articles 8-)

- -george william herbert
gwh@crl.com  

------------------------------

Bundle: 627
Archive-Message-Number: 7894
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 94 12:20:21 ADT
From: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@192.219.29.90>
Reply-To: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@Prograph.Com>
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 7884-7889 V75#19

Steven M Bonneville (bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu) wrote:
 
> It looks to me like the lighter weapons are really only useful for 
> anti-missile fire or to try and scrub the communications and sensory
> antennae off a ship.  The only other thing I can think of doing with
> them is to try to saturate a big ship's anti-missile defenses and get
> a fusion weapon right up next to it.  So I suppose the *really* big 
> ships like the _Tigress_-types will depend more on what we'd currently
> consider very heavy weapons to do any real damage to the enemy line.
> I have no idea what sort of power the TNE equivalent to the meson-T
> delivers on target, but it is probably massive.  The big ships will
> need to depend on heavy bays to back up the main gun, though, since
> the turrets and "pea-shooter" spinal mounts on escorts won't do much 
> good.  I'm not sure if the 100-ton bays can cut it; I haven't checked.
>
This is a good analysis.  To tell you the truth, I like the feel of being
able to armour my dreadnaughts in proper Fisher fashion.

As for tactics, would you not want to (1) engage with (relatively) light
armourment to detroy the antennas for the meson screen (I am under the
impression that cust out the meson defence) then (2) engange with the meson
armed big ships.

I have been thinking of some lighter meson armed ship ideas as well, but that
needs some development. 

> As for the _Chrysanthemum_ in a fleet action, well, I guess it really
> is a cheap "tin can".  I suppose it's supposed to be an SDB hunter
> and commerce cutter.
> 

Thats fine.  If there is no magic "torpedo" for frying big ships, torpedo
boats do not serve a lot of purpose.


Les Howie
Prograph International


------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 94 22:00:04 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #628: Msgs 7895-7904 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Wed Jun  8 22:00:03 EDT 1994
Reply-To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Jun 94 22:00:04 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #628: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 628  7895 07-Jun-1994 rancke@diku.dk   Coyns << I'm doing a 'Secret of The Anc
 628  7896 07-Jun-1994 Iain Fogg        Re: TML nightly: Msgs 7884-7889 V75#19 
 628  7897 07-Jun-1994 Wesley Esser     <<          David Johnson was looking f
 628  7898 07-Jun-1994 Steven M Bonnev  REPOST: FFS: SDB Floats << A slain mess
 628  7899 07-Jun-1994 David Johnson    All: Sword Worlds Technology << Gentles
 628  7900 07-Jun-1994 "Les Howie"      FF&S: Death Star Main Gun Attempt << I 
 628  7901 07-Jun-1994 David Johnson    All: Feudal Technocracy & TL Growth << 
 628  7902 07-Jun-1994 David Johnson    All: Techno-economics << Gentlesophonts
 628  7903 07-Jun-1994 David Johnson    TNE: *Shall Not Perish* Regency Militar
 628  7904 07-Jun-1994 David Johnson    REB: Vargr and Aslan Incursions << Gent

------------------------------

Bundle: 628
Archive-Message-Number: 7895
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Coyns
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 17:42:27 +0100 (METDST)

I'm doing a 'Secret of The Ancients' adventure for my players at the moment.
It's a different secret than the official one for several reasons; one, that
I don't like the whole Grandfather business at all, and, two, that even if I
did like it most of my players know it too, and that tends to ruin their
sense of wonder. And IMO the secret of The Ancients ought to be full of
wonder.

I have, however, tried to make my version fit all the clues left behind. My
Ancients left the universe in much the same state than the GDW Ancients did,
they just went about it differently. So some of he things I work out should
be useful even to those who want to stick with Grandfather and the kids.

At the moment I'm trying to work out how an Ancient set of coyns looks. We 
know the names of the coyns in the set of 36 used by modern Droyne, and 
we've been told what some of them looks like. The Ancient set consisted of
38 coyns and some of the odern coyns (Aslan, Hiver, K'kree) cannot be part 
of the set.

I've listed the facts I've used (numbered) and the assumptions I've made
(lettered). If anyone can come up with facts I have missed or have some 
good ideas, please let me know.

1) Coyn sets found in Ancient sites range in size from 6 to 38 pieces.
   [_Imperial Encyclopedia_ p. 21].

a) The lesser sets found are subset of one standard 38-coyn set, not 
   alternate sets.

b) The Ancient coyn set is identical to a pre-Ancient coyn set used by 
   pre-Ancient Droyne in prediction ceremonies.

2) Grandfather introduced the coyns as a tool of casting to a number of
   Chirper worlds around -75,000. [_Droyne_ pp. 6 and 45]. On some worlds
   the Chirpers gained the ability to caste, on others it didn't work
   (Vanejen, described in _Research Station Gamma_, is an example of the
   latter).

3) Grandfather modified the coyns on later visits and introduced the Aslan,
   Hiver and K'kree coyns (at least). [_Secret of The Ancients_ p 32].

b) The Ancient coyn set consisted of six groups of six plus two specials.
   The six castes was one group. Void, Soil, Air, Gas, Water, and Fire was
   aother (these were the Droyne concept of elements: Earth (Soil), Water,
   Fire, Good (breahable) Air (Air), Bad (unbreathable) Air (Gas), and the
   absence of any of the other five (Void). 18 of the other coyns mentioned
   in the modern set were also in the Ancient set, though any grouping of 
   them into sixes lacks common themes (the third group, Darkness, Cold,
   Noise, Signal, Heat, and Light are pairs of opposites  -  but so are
   Genesis & Death and Defeat & Achievement from another of the groups).
   Anyway, the abovementioned plus Aspiration, Sacrifice, Beast, Mercenary,
   Voyages, Justice, Change, and Phoenix (can't really be a phoenix, of
   course; it must be a legendary Droyne beast with the same characteristics 
   as the phoenix) were also part of the Ancient set. Humaniti, Vargr, 
   Aslan, Hiver, and K'kree was not. Remains the Droyne, which was one of
   the two special coyns. The remaining special coyn disappeared from the
   set when Grandfather re-introduced it, presumably because it was no
   longer relevant to the new Droyne. I suggest Eskaloyt, the Droyne
   homeworld itself. We now have 30+2 coyns. We lack one group of six, all
   of them coyns that were subsequently removed. One solution supplies not
   only a group with a common theme, but also the explanation of why they
   became redundant: Six prey animals native to Eskaloyt. Used by primitive
   Droyne to perform hunt magic.

So I suggest that the Ancient coyn set consisted of:

Worker	   Warrior	Drone	    Technician	 Sport	  Leader
Void	   Soil		Air	    Gas		 Water	  Fire
Darkness   Cold		Noise	    Signal	 Heat	  Light
Genesis	   Aspiration	Sacrifice   Defeat	 Death	  Achievement
Beast	   Mercenary	Voyages	    Justice	 Chance	  Phoenix
Hissayt	   Emissyob	Ayvaylk	    Bestoy	 Nebbay	  Hayyarn
Droyne	   Eskaloyt

But I can't just hand a list like that to my players. I'd much rather give
them a description of what the coyns look like. And that's where I need some
help. I've come up wih a description of most of the coyns. Some I like, some
I'm not thrilled about, and some I downright dislike, but can't come up with
a good alternative to. So if you think of something you think is better, let
me know.

c) The modern coyns that duplicates Ancient coyns duplicates their design 
   too.

4) The first Grandfather set (in -75,000) consisted of 38 coyns and included
   one with a human and one with a flame [RSG pp. 4 and 38].

d) The set of six fake coyns menioned on page 13 of _Twilight's Peak_ are
   copies of real coyns (albeit modern coyns); they depict an aslan leader,
   a flame, a human, a cloud, an ice crystal, and a sine wave.

e) The depictions of the six castes on page 64 of TP and pp. 12-13 of
   _Droyne_ are taken from the coyn depictions of those castes.

f) The coyn shown on the back of _Droyne_ (two flames and the lower third
   is obsured by a droyne) is not a variant of the coyn wih the single
   flame.

Now to match coyns to descriptions. The first six are easy, thanks to
assumption e):

A massive droyne with digging tools	Worker
A tall droyne with sword and shield	Warrior
A flying droyne with a bottle[1]	Drone		
A medium droyne with tools and detector	Technician
A slender droyne with ball and bat[2]	Sport
A big-headed droyne with a spear[3]	Leader

[1] A feeding bottle, perhaps?
[2] My best guess. It looks like a giant spoon and an irregular disc. I
    suggest that it's for _feldoss_, a popular droyne game that I just
    made up ;-) 
[3] A ceremonial spear, of course. See later.

The rest are a bit more tricky. The ones we know about, apart from the
Aslan and the human, was a flame, an ice crystal, a cloud, a sine wave,
and two flames. The flame and the ice crystal can be Fire and Cold. The 
cloud could be Air, Gas, or Water (or any of the philosophical concepts, 
of course; a cloud could be the symbol of hope to an agrarian community
("I do so hope it will rain")). The sine wave I eventually assigned to
Signal, which gave me a jagged zig-zag line for it's opposite, Noise.

Now, going down the list here are the symbols I came up with for each coyn:

Void	    Nothing engraved. A blank disc.
Soil	    A massive cliff. 
Air	    A white cloud (ie. the outline of a cloud).
Gas	    A black cloud (ie. a filled-in outline of a cloud).
Water	    A foam-flecked wave.
Fire	    A flame.

(Except for the Void and the Fire I'm pretty dissatisfied with these, but
they are the best I can come up with. Any suggestions?)

Darkness    Two different sized cresents (The moons of Eskaloyt)
Light	    A sun.
Cold	    An ice crystal.
Heat	    A campfire (Two flames arising from a tree log). 
Signal	    A sine wave.
Noise	    A zig-zag line.

Voyages	    A sailing ship.
Justice	    A ceremonial spear[4].
Chance	    Six sticks in a random pattern[5].
Beast	    A ferocious six-limbed carnivore in mid-jump[6].
Mercenary   A big-headed droyne with arms and armour[7].
Phoenix	    A six-limbed animal surrounded by flames.

[4] Used by primitive Droyne leaders to dispatch those judged guilty or
    supurfluous to the community (This must have been before krinaytsyu
    became common; when it did, the Leader kept the spear as his symbol
    of authority).
[5] The Droyne use such sticks to generate random numbers according to 
    the pattern they fall in; coyn drawing is not, of course, considered 
    a random procedure since theyare assumed to predict future events.
[6] The _Stomfelk_, the most feared predator on Eskaloyt.
[7] I reasoned that mercenaries must be krinaytsoyni, and the most common
    krinaytsoyni are leaders. Hence a leader with weapons for a mercenary.

Genesis	    An egg.
Death	    A droyne skull.
Achievement A brimful cup.
Defeat	    An empty, tipped-over cup.
Hope	    Six stars in a random pattern[8].
Sacrifice   A droyne sitting with eyes closed[9].


[8] Well, what can I say? If I could come up with good symbols for Air
    and Gas, I'd use the (rain) cloud for hope. As it is I'm falling back
    on a Droyne constellation symbolising hope.
[9] A droyne commiting krinaytsyui, of course.

The Hissayt, Emissyob, Ayvaylk, Bestoy, Nebbay, and Hayyarm are various
six-limbed herbivores and omnivores once important to Droyne hunters. I
had descriptions of them all worked out, but those notes seems to have
dissappeared.

Finally the two special coyns:

Droyne	   A group of three droyne, a leader, a drone, and a worker[10].
Eskaloyt   Some strange irregular outlines (diferent on the two sides)[11].

[10] In other words, an alpha-male, a female, and a beta-male.
[11] Polar projections of Eskaloyt. Since they don't have the lattitude
     and longitude lines common to human map projections they are unlikely 
     to be identified as such by humans. 

Well, that's what I've got so far. Any comments?

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Bundle: 628
Archive-Message-Number: 7896
From: Iain Fogg <isf1@mcs.le.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 94 10:10:42 BST
Subject: Re: TML nightly: Msgs 7884-7889 V75#19


Please remove me from the mailing list.

Iain Fogg
isf1@le.ac.uk

------------------------------

Bundle: 628
Archive-Message-Number: 7897
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 94 06:35:21 EDT
From: wesley@hd62.haledorr.com (Wesley Esser)






         David Johnson was looking for some suggestions about the governent
         of the Regency - here's my take on it:

         ----------------------%<------------------------------------

         Government Structure of the Regency

         The Regency has three actual branches of government: Legislative,
         Judicial, Executive; and the Military.  The legislative branch
         consists of two chambers, the Moot and the Senate, which share
         power.  The judicial branch consists of a series of appeals courts
         of varying power, and executive branch consists of the various
         Governors.  The military is not a separate branch, but is not
         beholden to the other branches.  The Regent is the highest level
         of authority for each branch. 



                                          Regent <--
         R                                  |      |
         E W       --------------------------------|------------------
         G I     Legislative Branches  Judiciary   |Executive     Military
         E D       |           |           |       |    |            |
         N E       |   -----------------------------    |            |    
         C         |   |       |           |            |         Admirals
         Y       Regency     Senate---> Regent's        |        ----------
                  Moot         |         Court          |         Marshals 
         ----------|-----------|-----------|------------|------------|-----
         S       Sector        |         Sector         |            |    
         E W     Dukes         |------> Apellate        |            |    
         C I       |           |         Court          |            |     
         T D       |           |           |            |            |     
         O E       |           |           |            |            |
         R         |           |           |            |            |
         __________|___________|___________|____________|____________|_____
           S      Sub          |           |           Sub         Fleet  
         S E W   Sector        |----------------->    Sector      Admirals
         U C I   Dukes         |           |        Governors        |     
         B T D     |           |           |            |            |    
           O E     |           -------------------      |            |    
           R       |                       |     |      |            |    
         ----------|-----------------------|-----|------|------------|-----
         W       Counts                District  -->Planetary     Reserve 
         O      Marquises               Courts      Governors     Admirals
         R       Barons                                          ----------
         L                                                        Generals
         D                                                                



         At the top of this hierarchy, wielding the highest power of the
         executive, legislative, judicial and military branches, is the
         Regent.  The office is held for life and passed on to the
         designated heir.  The Regent appoints candidates to all executive
         and judical posts on the sector and subsector levels, subject to
         confirmation by the Senate.  The armed forces are controlled
         directly by the Regent with no oversight by the Senate or the
         Moot.  The titles held by the Regent include, but are not limited
         to:  Lord Regent of the Third Imperium, Archduke of Deneb,
         President of the Senate, Commander-in-Chief of the Imperial Navy,
         and Supreme Marshall of the Imperial Army.

         The Moot is the senior chamber of the legislative branch, composed
         of the peers of baronial rank and higher in the realm who serve as
         long as they maintain their title (usually for life, although
         abdications do occur).  There is approximately one noble per
         planet in the Regency, and as such, the Moot tends to favor the
         rights of lower population worlds.  The members of the Moot are
         predominantly human.  Although the Moot does vote to confirm the
         succession to the Regency, this power is mitigated by the fact
         that they can only vote for, not against a new Regent.
         Politically the Moot tends to be dominated by the Aristocratic,
         Imperiallist and Sovreignist blocks.

         The Senate is technically the junior chamber of the legislature,
         although in fact it is more active politcally than the Moot.
         Senators are popularly elected representatives of Senatorial
         Districts of approximately 1 billion sophonts.  Being based on
         population, these districts can vary in size from a portion of a
         world to a dozen or more entire worlds.  Because of this, the
         Senate tends to favor the high population worlds, where some 96%
         of the Regency's population live.  In addition, the Senate is a
         more cosmopolitan body, with 29 Llelywolly Senators from Junidy,
         11 Gl'lu Senators from Kibushish, one Ebokin Senator from Yebab,
         several Aslan Senators from the spinward regions, and even one
         Chirper Senator from Vanejeen.  Senators serve 10 year terms, and
         may be elected to no more than 3 terms in succession.  The Senate
         has the power to confirm or reject all appointments to the
         Judicial and Executive branches made by the Regent. Unsuprisingly,
         the Senate tends to hold Democratic/Interventionist views.

         The judicial branch exists to decide when (or if) Regency law has
         been violated, and consisists of a series of courts at various
         levels that have the ability to review the decisions of courts at
         lower levels. The lowest level are the Regency District Courts,
         corresponding to the Senatorial Districts.  These courts are the
         base of Regency law, and spend much of their time hearing local
         cases dealing with conflicts between Regency law and the local
         laws.  Decisions of the District Courts may be appealed to the
         Subsector Appeals Court, which can in turn lead to an appeal to
         the Regent's Court on Mora.  The final avenue of appeal is
         directly to the Regent, who can reverse the decision of any
         Regency Court.  Justices of the District Courts are elected from
         the district.  Justices of the Appeals and Regent's courts are
         appointed by the Regent for indefinite terms, but are subject to
         confirmation by the Senate.  They may be removed from office by
         the Regent, or by a vote of the Senate.

         The executive branch consists of the Subsector Governors appointed
         by the Regent and confirmed by the Senate, and Planetary Governors
         appointed by the Senate.  It's purpose is to ensure that the will
         of the Senate and of the Regent is carried out.  Thus the
         Governors are responsible for collection of taxes, implementation
         of policy and enforcement of Regency law.

         The military in the Regency is not an actual branch of the
         government, but it funtions in many was as such.  The head of the
         military is the Regent, and under him are the Admirals and
         Marshals of the Realm.  Each Sub-Sector has a Fleet admiral
         assigned to it, and each high population world has a Reserve
         Admiral in charge of the reserve fleet, and a General in charge of
         the planet's ground forces.  The military, through the person of
         the Regent (undoubtedly with advice from the Senate and the Moot),
         has the right to decide when to wage war or make peace.  It is
         effectively outside the the control of the Senate, the Moot and
         the Governors on most matters.  The military is, however, bound to
         uphold Regency law, and thus must obey decisions of the judiciary.

         ----------------------%<------------------------------------

         I have tried to incorporate a few important ideas in this outline,
         most importantly the divisions of power between the Senate and the
         Moot, and their different focuses (i.e., the population based
         Senate v. the planet based Moot), the conflict between
         Sovreignists and Interventionists (to use David Johnson's terms),
         and the role of the Regent as the font of all political power. 

         One idea that I would particularly like comment on is the
         Senatorial District.  It would seem odd to me to allow , say,
         Menorb and Pixie the same level of representation given their
         different populations.  So I have combined Pixie into one district
         with Menorb, Yres and Boughene.  This gives a fairly compact
         district of 3,060,900,800 (New Era figures) which is further
         divided into three subdistricts, each of which elect one Senator.
         This seems to be more in tune with a democratic body than the
         arbitrary sector/subsector designation, as it can recognize
         clusters of worlds as sharing common circumstances without giving
         them seperate governments.  The main problem with this is the
         exact nature of the districts (they are a pain to figure out), but
         that seems ok to me too..it lets things stay flexible as
         populations grow and shift.  And just imagine the fights in the
         Senate of over redistricting!  I can see a whole adventure based
         on census taking, and whether the population of Wochiers has
         really passed 1 billion.  How's that for cerebral adventuring?  

         Also, this concept gives the minor races more of a chance to have
         representation in the Senate.  Imagine a Gl'lu delegation
         wandering around in insulated suits full of ammonia - how's that
         to remind your players that they aren't in Kansas anymore.



         So there you go guys...  go to town!  I'm off to the beach for a
         few days...I can't wait to get back and see what you all think!

         Wes Esser
         wesley.esser@hd62.haledorr.com

------------------------------

Bundle: 628
Archive-Message-Number: 7898
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 10:48:12 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: REPOST: FFS: SDB Floats

A slain message, trying to return from the dead....

Les Howie <lhowie@Prograph.Com> writes:

>How do you submerge an SDB to hide under the world's oceans? 
[. . .]
>The TNE 400 Ton SDB has a volume of 5600 m^3, and a laden mass of 4886.17
>tonnes, for a specific gravity at 1G of .86.  It Floats!  

Oh yuck.  The MT 400 d-ton SDB had a specific gravity of about 2.0 laden,
so it wasn't a problem before.  You could give up some of the hydrogen fuel
storage and flood those fuel tanks with water, er, "unrefined fuel".  It
would take 29 G-turns worth to bring the SDB's specific gravity to just
over 1.0.  That would add about 725 tonnes of mass to the ship.  Since the
SDB has 112 G-turns, I suppose you could pay the price. 

Seems to me that you'd be better served adding armor to the hull and getting
some added value out of the mass -- besides, superdense armor is more compact.
But maybe there'd be some value in "crash surfacing" with this design.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>

------------------------------

Bundle: 628
Archive-Message-Number: 7899
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 94 13:37:17 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: All: Sword Worlds Technology

Gentlesophonts:

Here's my second try at this post.

Andy Lilly <A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk> writes:

> So in theory the world might be rated TL11 but actually still 
> retain (or have built up to) TL12 or TL13 in their starship production.

This is a good point but one might wonder then why Sacnoth has not made
similar efforts to push its space TL to 14.

> To apply this to a wider range of products, even should your own world be 
> TL11 and unable to supply TL12 replacements for your bought-in TL12 
> thingummy-jigs, there's no reason why you shouldn't buy, steal or smuggle 
> such from other worlds.

Maybe, but it's tough to fight a prolonged war this way against an opponent
who can produce his own goods internallly.  Essentially though, this is what
I've proposed for Gram - it's been receiving aid from the Zhodani.

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 628
Archive-Message-Number: 7900
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 94 20:52:07 ADT
From: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@192.219.29.90>
Reply-To: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@Prograph.Com>
Subject: FF&S: Death Star Main Gun Attempt

I will confess that I like to push the limits of a set of 
rules.  I hope that this post will show one end of the limit 
of Meson gun design.  I have read in the GDW-Beta archives of 
a meson SMG design which I would love to see posted.

This extreme is an attempt to build the Star Wars Death Star 
main weapon.  Some time ago I retrieved the following from 
rec.arts.sf.science, posted by Erik Max Francis, 
max@alcyone.darkside.com, in response to a question there:

>The total energy required to give every little infinitesimal 
>bit of a spherical, uniform mass escape velocity from every 
>other little bit (also called the binding energy) is
>
>    (3/5) G M^2/R,
>
>where G is the universal constant of gravitation, M is the 
>total mass of the sphere, and R is its initial :-) radius.  
>Of course, this will not be entirely true for a 
>nonspherical, nonuniform object like a planet, but it's 
>certainly within an order of magnitude or so.

Now for Earth, from the sci.astro faq, we have:

(1) G =   6.673e-11 N m^2/kg^2 (7e-11)
(2) M =   5.974e24 kg
(3) R =   6.371e6  m

Which, unless I have screwed up here, is about 2.25e32 j, or 
2.25e26 Mj

So if we want to build a death star, we need a weapon (a 
Meson Gun would seem ideal) which will feed that much energy 
into the core of a planet in a reasonably short period of 
time -- say about 30 minutes.

Lets assume that we can design the weapon with an ROF of 100.

This gives us a discharge energy of 2.26e24 Mj.  Working at 
TL 14 and selecting a tunnel length of 250 m (to give a short 
range of 10 hexes, the other calculations fall out:

3a Effective Tunnel Length 300m
3b Tunnel Volume           5.62e24 m^3
3c Cross Sectional Area    2.25e22 (a diameter of 8e7 km !!)
3d Tunnel Mass             3.37e24
3e Tunnel Price            5.63e23 MCr

I won't bore you with damage values, which run from 7e12 
down.

Well, so much for the Meson armed death star -- back to the 
drawing board, Darth.


Les Howie
Prograph International


------------------------------

Bundle: 628
Archive-Message-Number: 7901
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 94 18:50:40 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: All: Feudal Technocracy & TL Growth

Gentlesophonts:

Alistair Langsford <langsl@cbr.hhcs.gov.au> writes:

>     	 One possible interpretation of a Feudal technocracy comes from 
>          combining what we understand by the terms Feudal and Technocracy. 
>          
>     	 The Feudal bit is in fact just like the Feudal system we know from 
>          history, with for example a King and his vassal Nobles (Dukes, 
>          Marquis, Counts, Barons, Knights) each of which has his/her own 
>          vassals

This is fine but you have to recognize the `inter-relatedness' of the
feudal system.  The vassals provide local resources (knights, taxes, etc.)
to the lord in return for coordinated services (military protection).  This
is what distiguishes a feudal system from a simple aristocracy where their
is no inter-relatedness.

>          When it comes to 
>          managing the industry within a noble's domain, the staff are 
>          technical experts in that relevant technologies. This last is the 
>          'technocracy' bit. The ruling classes believe in this method of 
>          managing industry, which makes them technocrats.

Yes, this is technocracy but it has no system of inter-relatedness.  If the
technocrats are merely advisors appointed by the ruler then they serve at
her whim.  This is not a feudal system.

>     	 To me the above description seems to fit the term 'Feudal 
>          Technocracy'

I don't think so.  Rather, it is merely a technocracy (such as exists in
many contemporary nations) within an aristocratic system.

>          I don't know enough about *kieretsu* to say whether or not they 
>          also fit the description. To me they sound like a better model for 
>          Corporate governments.

I hope I've distinguished the difference between corporate government and
a feudal technocracy in my prior post in response to Hans.  One key is the
matter of scale.  A corporate government only works on a relatively small
scale (hence the lower government digit) while a feudal technocracy works
on a larger scale.  This difference of scale results in siginficant
differences between the two types.


John Bogan <john.bogan@asb.com> writes:

> Hans writes:
> 
> >So the question becomes: Regina was TL 9 in 275. Why did Regina gain
> >only one TL in EIGHT centuries and two more in two decades? 
> 
> Well, we all know the REAL reason for that is that Regina was made out to be
> an important world in the Marches' affairs that having such a relatively low
> as 10 seemed a bit peculiar.
> 
> I tend to regard the lower tech level as one of those "early Traveller
> inconsistencies"

There is a more elegant solution to this inconsistency and Hans has already
suggested the answer.  If you think of tech level as being tied to economic
growth in an environment where each technological breakthrough need not
be `rediscovered' but merely `grown into' (in an economic sense) it's
actually quite simple.

If you think of the economic growth of Regina from it's settlement in 75
you would expect the situation to go something like this: early economic
activity would be highly exploitative with natural resources being extracted
for export and most manufactured goods imported; eventually, indigineous
industry would appear but even this would be limted at first.  Regina
quickly became a hub for further exploration and development in the Marches
so it's economy would move from exploitation of natural resources to one
of trading services where manufactured goods from the Core were shipped
out to developing worlds and resources from these worlds were shipped back
to the Core (probably just Deneb sector).  This `trading post' economy
would continue for quite some time (similar to, say, St. Louis in the
exploitation of the American West - it had been settled a *long* time and
had quite a large population before any automobiles were manufactured there).
Eventually, as `civilization' moved into the Marches, a `full' economy would
emerge on Regina with a significant industrial base.  This would lead to
rather significant increases in economic output and thus tech level.


Cynthia Higginbotham <CHiggin@aol.com> writes:

> Hans:
> >I realize that I assume that the word 'feudal' in 'feudal 
> >technocracy' has a semantic content close to the normal definition of
> >the word and is not a mere buzz-word.
> 
>     So do I. If anything, the "technocracy" part is the buzz-word.  
> David, what you keep describing sounds like a plain old Corporate 
> state (Gov 1) to me.

I hope I made this clearer in my last response to Hans.  It seems to me
that what's happening (and not particularly with you, Cynthia, nor Hans) is
that many folks are confusing feudalism with aristocracy.  Feudalism is based
upon mutual obligations between the lord and his vassals.  An aristocracy
has no such requirement.  In medieval feudal aristocracies these obligations
were centered around military affairs.  In a feudal technocracy the
technocracy `buzz-word' shifts the focus from military affairs to industrial
activities (including service industries) but the system of mutual obligations
remains.  It is these mutual obligations that distinguish a feudal technocracy
from a corporate government.

>     As with TechLevel definitions, GDW created endless fodder for 
> arguments by mixing structural definitions (Representative Democracy, 
> Tech level of a given artifact), with procedural or functional 
> definitions (impersonal bureaucracy, production level of a world).

Yes, of course, we all must labor under this confounded burden.  :-)
  
Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 628
Archive-Message-Number: 7902
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 94 19:13:52 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: All: Techno-economics

Gentlesophonts:

J Roberson <RJR96326@vax1.utulsa.edu> writes:

> >I *get* the *economic* fluctuation, what I don't get is how *technological*
> >ability gets tied to it!
> 
> Try this: The knowledge exists, but is still very expensive.

Right, but we're not talking about knowledge here, we're talking about
the ability to *produce* a certain level of technology, i.e. industry.
(Tech level 15 *knowledge* ought to be available from your local library
data terminal on most Imperial worlds.)  For the ability to *produce* a
certain level of technology to `go away' you'd have to have a *severe*
economic down turn like the Long Night or the Viral Collapse.

> An example
> might be our very own space program. How many projects have been cancelled
> or postponed because of budget constraints? (With the number of NASA people
> on the list I'm sure I'll get an answer ;)

As one of those people and a long-time space advocate I have to admit that
*no* space project has been cancelled or postponed due to budgetary
constraints.  Budget decisions represent a redirection of *priorities*,
not a lack of economic resources.  In the same period that space technology
has been virtually stagnant (c1970 to the present) there have been 
*tremendous* advances in computer, medical and biological technologies.
(Of course these fields haven't had the `advantage' of almost complete
government subsidy that the space program has had.)

> Money funds research. Research advances Technology. Therefore, economic
> fluctuations will affect the development of technology.

Yes, but it won't affect the ability to produce technology in the Imperium
where the higher tech knowledge already exists.  Neither does it explain
*reductions* in the ability to produce a certain level of technology.

A better example (Oh no, I'm making Hans's point!) might be to compare Detroit
to the Japanese automakers.  Because Nissan, Toyota and Honda were able to
produce higher quality automobiles more efficiently there was nearly a
*de facto* tech level drop in the US.  Nevertheless, even this example 
only concerns a particular industry which might explain a drop in one
of the *WBH* tech level specialty areas.  An overall tech level drop would
have to affect *several* sectors at the same time.  IMHO, that could only
be caused by a major economic catastrophe.


James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us> asks:

>   All I ask is that the participants start editing in a more
> ruthless fashion

How am I doing?  :-)

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 628
Archive-Message-Number: 7903
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 94 19:29:43 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE: *Shall Not Perish* Regency Military Forces

Gentlesophonts:

Steve Charlton <scharlto@avalon.com> writes:

> If it comes to a choice between TCS fleet sizes vs 5FW fleet sizes, I would
> have to pick the economy-jumbo-sized TCS fleets.  Not for any reason
> of playability or historical realism, but mostly because I have too many
> middle and high-ranking Imperial Navy PCs and NPCs in my campaign
> to have anything less than several thousand warships in each sector.

This is a good point on which to redirect this discussion back to the
original purpose.  How do we determine naval and army (ground/air/sea)
force composition and organization for the Regency?  I don't care whether
we use *5FW*/*RS* protocols or *HG*/*TCS*/*POT* protocols.  I made an
initial suggestion for the Sword Worlds using my best guess at *5FW*/*RS*
protocols which got the shorts of a lot of TCS-ites in knots.  Fine.
So will some of those TCS-ites *please* make an alternate suggestion?
I'd do it myself but I don't have *TCS* or *POT*.

Here are some questions to consider:

How are Regency naval and army forces organized at the subsector and sector
level?

What is the overall composition of Regency military forces?

What is the compostion of a `typical' Regency naval squadron and a `typical'
army battalion/regiment/division/corps/whatever-you-think-the-`basic'-unit-
ought-to-be?

Who are the major military figures in the Regency?

> I certainly dont see why suggesting 5FW force levels would generate
> so much dismay.

I don't either.  I'd really rather see folks suggestion *alternatives* to
any point *anyone* makes rather than merely trying to rip holes in a position
they disagree with.  The latter course is neither interesting *nor* useful.

Let's get back to our TML Regency sourcebook, *Shall Not Perish*.

Peace and Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 628
Archive-Message-Number: 7904
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 94 19:48:39 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: REB: Vargr and Aslan Incursions

Gentlesophonts:

My ccr2 worth on the Vargr and Aslan incursions.

As for the Vargr at high pop worlds like Junidy, consider this: nuclear
blackmail.  A corsair band shows up, threatens to drop some nukes unless
the locals surrender, so the locals do.  This wouldn't work in the `old'
days because the Imperial Navy would show up, blockade the world, and
chase the Vargr down in the Extents if they fled.  (Remember, the Vargr
aren't suicidal, just greedy, ruthless and opportunistic.)  In the chaos of
the Rebellion such an Imperial response became much less likely so some Vargr
were emboldened.

As for the *ihatei*, clearly these Aslan came to dominate high pop worlds
like Aki and Glisten through economic and diplomatic means as well as military
means.  It's one thing to say Glisten would fight when they're assured of
eventual relief from the interior; it's quite another when that relief is
much less certain - especially when reliance upon that relief from the
interior has been ingrained for centuries.  (Texans like to think of
ourselves as tough cookies but if a Latin American army showed up at
Houston one day and it was unclear when, if ever, the US Army was going
to help out, I wouldn't put it past the Mayor to quitely succomb to `these
wonderful benefactors from the South'.)

As for the eventual reincorporation of *ihatei*-occupied worlds into the
Regency I suspect many of those Aslan settlers would have no problem
becoming Domain citizens once the Domain Navy *did* show up and it was
certainly a lot simpler (and less bloody) to accept this *fait accompli*
than to try to eject the *ihatei* squatters.

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 94 22:00:04 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #629: Msgs 7905-7911 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Wed Jun  8 22:00:03 EDT 1994
Reply-To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 Jun 94 22:00:04 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #629: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 629  7905 07-Jun-1994 David Johnson    All: Techno-economics & SW Political Th
 629  7906 08-Jun-1994 rancke@diku.dk   All: Technocracy << David Johnson) writ
 629  7907 07-Jun-1994 David Johnson    TNE: Regency Government << Gentlesophon
 629  7908 06-Jun-1994 J Roberson       << >Right, but we're not talking about 
 629  7909 08-Jun-1994 William White    Feudal Technocracy << I tried to post t
 629  7910 07-Jun-1994 James Kundert    VDES,NE,GEN: Armor, Editing & Coyns << 
 629  7911 08-Jun-1994 Dave Kennard     FFS: TL16 laser pistol << To hell with 

------------------------------

Bundle: 629
Archive-Message-Number: 7905
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 94 21:36:59 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: All: Techno-economics & SW Political Theory

Gentlesophonts:

Here's a second try at this post:

Hans Rancke <rancke@diku.dk> writes:

> >>economic instability _should_ result in TL instability. 
> > 
> >Why? This is what I'm having difficulty with.
> 
> Is the difficulty with the fact that there are no examples, or is it the
> very concept you can't accept?

It's the very concept.  I accept that some technological variations might
be tied to economic fluctuations but I have great difficulty with the idea
that overall technological capability (what TL measures) is going to vary
much unless there are *huge* fluctuations in the economy, i.e. the Long
Night or Viral Collapse.

The examples you cited are fine but they only refer to individual firms.
For the techno-economic cycles to occur they have to affect entire
industries.  A particular Gram jump drive manufacturer might get a `jump'
on a particular Sacnoth jump drive manufacturer but for the techno-
economics theory to hold *several* Gram industries (ship building, medical
tech, communications, robotics, *et al*) would have to `get a jump' on
similar industries on Sacnoth.  This really seems to be a stretch of the
imagination to me.  I'll admit it's possible but it's not very darn likely.

> (Btw. there's another, perfectly simple, explanation of how Gram could be

> only TL 10-11 in other, vital areas (Check _World Builder's Handbook_ for
> details).)

Yes, I'm aware of *WBH* but while this might explain a particular circumstance
it doesn't explain the subsector-wide situation.  Gram might have higher
space tech than Sacnoth but by the same reasoning Narsil might have higher
space tech than both.  This just leads to ever-more-insidious possibilities.

> How many worlds do we have any historical data on? A mere handful. While an
> example might prove my point, the absence dosen't disprove it (since I'm
> merely trying to establish that it could happen).

Wait a minute!  This is the same `reasoning' UFO-nuts use to make claims
about ET visitors.  It is the burden of any claimant to provide evidence
of their claim.  Merely suggesting that your argument can't be disproved does
not make your point!

> Do you really think that no contemporary of Piper wrote about social
> systems with more equal treatment of men and women than his Sword Worlds?

Certainly there were more `progressive' contemporaries of Piper but he was
consistent with the general attitudes of his period.

> Or that TCS couldn't have gotten away with describing a minor, antagonistic
> power as far more repressive than they did?

Certainly they could have but I believe they were copying Piper wholeheartedly
and were merely `updating' to fit the general attitudes of their own time.
They certainly intended for folks to `play' Sword Worlders and so didn't
want them to be too repressive (like the Solomani which were never featured
as anything but `bad guys' until *Solomani and Aslan*).

> >>I despair of explaining those cycles any better than by the sentence 
> >>'Economy can (and often does) fluctuate'. 
> > 
> >I *get* the *economic* fluctuation, what I don't get is how *technological*
> >ability gets tied to it!  
> 
> Because if technology wasn't tied to economic features then most every
> world in Charted Space would be TL 15! (Except those with religious or
> philosophically induced limits.)

We seem to go back and forth on this.  I accept that technological
achievement (TL) is tied to economic capability.  What I don't accept
is that fluctuations in the economy (relatively minor in the overall scheme
of things) are reflected in *fluctuations* in technological achievement
(a relatively major event).  Again, why the need to propose this in the
absence of *any* evidence of a downward technological `fluctuation'?

> Except that they represent a stagnation of the economy that is quite
> incredible to me. It's the 'slow' I object to. One TL in umpteen centuries
> is not slow, it's moribund.

Okay, but who's feelings are competing with the factual record now?

> Right. I will give you those decades. I'll even make them centuries. So the
> question becomes: Regina was TL 9 in 275. Why did Regina gain only one TL in
> EIGHT centuries and two more in two decades?

I don't know but nothing about this slow rate of advancement calls out for
your mysterious techno-economic cycles.  I might suggest that this problem
arises from our own limited contemporary experience in which GDW has tied
technological achievement of several tech levels (TL ~5-8) to a chronological
period that only spans a single lifetime.

> Piper's Gram is merely a feudal monarchy set in a more technological
> advanced age than the medieval feudal monarchies of Terra.

Not true.  Gorram Shipyards was an industrial fief, not a land fief.  There
was also banking fief.  A feudal technocracy works similar to the feudal
aristocracy we are more familiar with.  The difference is that the medieval
feudal arstocracy was tied to land fiefs as you describe while a feudal
technocracy is tied to industrial and service fiefs that exist in `modern'
society.

> In a feudal society a vassal's ability to disregard the dictates of his
> liege lord is no greater. His whole right to his fief is tied up with his
> obligation to obey his liege lord's legitimate orders.

We all know these obligations were often ignored and `legitmacy' often
fell to the most charismatic or otherwise powerful liege lord.  This is
the whole basis of the Arturian legend.  Uther Pendragon lost his kingship
as his vassals rebelled or refused to support him.  Arthur regained that
kingship by uniting those vassals in the Fellowship of the Round Table.

> It only just struck me, but why are you assuming that there are any share-
> holders? I repeat: "By analogy a feudal technocracy is one where the King 
> theoretically owns all the industry (the source of power analogous to land 
> in a feudal society) and lends it out in exchange for support."

No.  A feudal technocracy is a system of government where the owners of
industrial production give their support in exchange for economic opportunity
or `protection'.  A medieval baron pledged his knights and a portion of
his economic wealth to his liege.  In return, the liege-holder (ulitmately a
king) agreed to use the combined strength of all of his barons to protect
each fiefdom from assault or other danger (like internal strife).  Similarly,
in a feudal technocracy like the *kieritsu*, the owners of industrial
production pledge their economic support (i.e. cooperation) to a central
authority which cooridinates the efforts of various industrial and service
sectors towards the perceived common good, namely profits.  This is a 
voluntary arrangement where the individual corporate entities may or may not
choose to continue to cooperate.  Just as feudal barons might choose to
no longer support their liege and often did just that when they perceived
an advantage for themselves.

> Who owns the corporation in a corporate government? Who owns it in a feudal
> technocracy? What's the difference?

In a corporate government there are a single group of shareholders as
represented by the corporate board of directors.  This board acts in essence
as a single entity.  In a feudal technocracy there are several *different*
and independent groups of shareholders (i.e. the `barons') who each act
as *separate* and distinct entities.

> I think it would be useful to agree on the equivalences of various terms
> in the three systems we're talking about.

I don't think it's appropriate at all to discuss a corporate model
here.  A corporate government is a specialized form of an autocracy.  In
a corporate model there is, in theory at least, no imput at all from those
participating in the system.  You just do what the boss says or you're fired.
I'll focus my comments on the comparison of feudal aristocracy and feudal
technocracy and try to point out where the corporate model isn't relevant
as appropriate.

> Traditional feudal society	Corporation		Feudal technocracy
> 
> King				     -			King

*ditto*                             *CEO*               *ditto*

> The king is the man who owns the fiefs and doles them out in return for
> support from his vassals.

This isn't correct.  In a feudal aristocracy the king does not `own' the
land.  Rather the king supplies `coordinated services' (i.e. joint military
protection) in return for `cooperation' from his vassals (i.e. local military
forces and tax revenue).

> In that respect he is the equivalent of the
> owner or the shareholders of a corporation. But an owner's power does not
> depend on the support of their CEOs, so there is no real correspondence.

No, the king is the equivalent of the Chairman of the Board of Directors.
The Chairman provides `coordinated activites', i.e. `running the company'
in return for the financial support of the shareholders, i.e. `cooperation'.
A true feudal technocracy is much more complicated than this because it
concerns *all* of the shareholders of *all* of the industrial and service
entities acting in the entire marketplace.  In this sense, if there is a
`king' he has gained monopoly control of the entire economic sytem.  This
is why US industry fears the Japanese *kieritsu* so much.  They are concerned
that their coordinated activity gives Japanese industry a competitive
advantage.

>  Fief				Corporation		Corporation

*ditto*              no equivalent autonomous unit      Block of Shares

> Vassal (Duke/Count/etc.)	CEO			Vassal

*ditto*                       not applicable            *ditto*

> The vassal manages the fief for the king.

No, the vassal agrees to put the resources of the fief at the disposal of
the king in exchange for centrally-coordinated joint services.

> Steward/Reeve/Guard Captain	Company Officer		Company Officer

*ditto*                       again not applicable      *ditto*

> Sub-fief			Subsidiary		Subsidiary

*ditto*                       again not applicable      *ditto*

> Feudal service			Dividend	Feudal service

*ditto*                       again not applicable      *cash* (in exchange
                                                        for `shares' of the
                                                        profits)

> In a feudal society a vassal pays his liege lord with service, not with
> money. Shareholders, on the other hand, recieve their pay in money.

No, the dividends received by shareholders in a feudal technocracy are
equivalent to the military protection received by fiefholders in a feudal
aristocracy.

>      -				Board of Directors	     -
>      -				Shareholders		     -
> 
> These have no real equivalents in a feudal society.

No, *shareholders* are the equivalent of *fiefholders*.  Each block of 
shareholders, represented by their boards of directors, is equivalent to
the fiefholders of a feudal aristocracy.  Each block of shares is a fief.

> >In a feudal technocracy the `king' owns the largest bloc of shares of
> >*everything* but he doesn't necessarily own everything.  
> 
> You didn't get this from Piper. Duke Angus owns his holdings outright. Baron
> Trask owns all of Traskon. Baron Karvall owns all of Karvall. When Lucas
> Trask pledges Traskon in return for a ship, Angus gets the whole bit, not
> just a share of it.

There's no conflict here!  Trask could have sold only a portion of Traskon.
He owned that entire block of shares of the total economic sector of Gram.
Remember, it was partially because of the greater economic power he gained
from the acquisition of Traskon that *Duke* Angus eventually became *King*
Angus.  Traskon Barony increased Angus's share of the total economic output
(GPP?) of Gram and thereby led to him becoming king by virtue of his control
of the largest portion of the entire economy.

> >If no one owns a
> >controlling bloc you get balkanization, like Joyeuse.  
> 
> If the Dukes can't agree on who to support for king you get balkanization.

Right.  And in a feudal technocracy, `dukes' are merely those who control
large blocks of industrial production - shareholders.

> Still sounds like corporate politics. I don't see where the feudal bit gets
> into it at all. The Chairman of a Corporation dosen't excersise _any_
> control over the pension funds, does he?

Yes, he provides coordinated control of the combined assets of shareholders
(like the pension funds) in an effort to produce profits and hence dividends
or increased stock value for the shareholders.  This is just like the feudal
aristocratic model where the king provides coordinated control of the 
combined resources of fiefholders in an effort to produce security.

> The pension fund managers dosen't
> perform services for the Corporation Chairman, do they (They don't even
> pay him money).

*Au contraire*!  The pension funds and other shareholders provide *cash*
to the chairman just as aristocratic vassals provided military forces and
tax revenue to the king.

> Thus there is no true equivalence between the pension fund 
> managers and a fiefholder in a feudal society.

It is *exactly* the same.

> I realize that I assume that the word 'feudal' in 'feudal technocracy' has a 
> semantic content close to the normal definition of the word

So do I.

> >The key element here is that in a feudal technocracy the economic influence
> >of shareholders translates directly into politcal power.
> 
> In a feudal technocracy industrial holdings IMO takes the place of land for 
> the purposes of generating the wealth that translates into power.

We're saying the same thing.  If the technocratic baron chooses to place
his support in the hands of a different lord he transfers not only economic
power but political power as well.

> If he owns them he can dictate who gets to buy them.

He doesn't own them just as an aristocratic king didn't own his vassals'
fiefs.  If Uther Pendragon had `owned' the fief of Cornwall he could have
just `removed' the Duke and taken his wife Igrayne.  Instead he was forced
to lay seige to Cornwall when the Duke no longer chose to support him.

> Why? We are talking about the GDW Sword Worlds, aren't we? Why invite
> confusion?

Okay, okay.  It's King Anders then.

> Thereby forfeiting his right to the fief.

No, thereby forfeiting his right to protection from the aristocratic king
or profits from the technocratic king.

> >My point is that since, under my world view, Sacnoth is the strongest 
> >economic power, Harald will one day triumph over Angus.  
> 
> 1) Being stronger is not an automatic ticket to victory.

It is in a feudal technocracy.  Again, it's why US industry fears the 
Japanese.

> 2) He isn't that much stronger.

He is if he really enjoys a full tech level advantage.  (Of course, you
must give up your `cycles' to accept this point.)

>    King Anders could own huge blocks of Sacnoth industry, making 
>    Harald a puppet of his.

Yes, he might except that the TL 12 vassals on Sacnoth might choose to
no longer support Anders (since their TL 12 industry ought to be better
able to compete *against* Anders's TL 11 holdings on Gram) and so they
would strive for their own competitive advantage and thus greater politcal
power.  Eventually, some Sacnoth vassal of Anders's would rise to a
position of dominance on Sacnoth as King Thorvald or whomever.

> If Anders owns all of Gram he will have to put people in charge of parts of 
> it, which could result in various systems, including a feudal technocracy.

No, if Anders of placing people in control then they enjoy their control
*at his whim*.  This is not a feudal arrangement at all.  It is autocracy
*and* similar *then* to the corporate model.
 
> Again you assume that Harald and his ancestors would want to conquer Gram
> militarily. Again I suggest that they may not be ready to pay the price.

No, I'm just assuming that a little military action might make the economic
conquest of Gram a little simpler.  Think of Japan with a full tech level
advantage, a nuclear arsenal and the ability to project global military force.
There'd be no `voluntary' import restrictions on Japanese autos in the US in
that scenario!

Peace,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 629
Archive-Message-Number: 7906
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: All: Technocracy
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 1994 04:57:20 +0100 (METDST)

David Johnson) writes:
>Andy Lilly <A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk> writes:
> 
>>So in theory the world might be rated TL11 but actually still 
>>retain (or have built up to) TL12 or TL13 in their starship production.
> 
>This is a good point but one might wonder then why Sacnoth has not made
>similar efforts to push its space TL to 14.

For the same reason Entrope isn't TL 15: Economic problems at a level of
detailing that we haven't bothered to go into. The facts we can't get
away from is that Gram is TL 11 (overall) in 1110 and Sacnoth is Tl 12
(again overall). Apart from that we can do anything as long as we think it
makes sense. Like make Gram TL 12 in Space Technology (and even Sacnoth
TL 11 in space technology if you feel that is necessary to explain why
they aren't top dog). But to make Sacnoth TL 14 in space technology (or
in anything) is to magnify the very problems you complain about.

>>To apply this to a wider range of products, even should your own world be 
>>TL11 and unable to supply TL12 replacements for your bought-in TL12 
>>thingummy-jigs, there's no reason why you shouldn't buy, steal or smuggle 
>>such from other worlds.
> 
>Maybe, but it's tough to fight a prolonged war this way against an opponent
>who can produce his own goods internallly.  

So? With imported tech you may be able to win a short war against someone
who can produce what you have to import even if you can't win a long one. 
With no imports you'd lose even a short war. So the imports makes sense
in any case.

>I hope I've distinguished the difference between corporate government and
>a feudal technocracy in my prior post in response to Hans.  

Unfortunately I haven't seen it. Could you mail me a copy if you still have
it on file? I'm particularily interested in your response to my comparisons
of various features of feudal, corporate, and feudal tech societies.

>Right, but we're not talking about knowledge here, we're talking about
>the ability to *produce* a certain level of technology, i.e. industry.
>(Tech level 15 *knowledge* ought to be available from your local library
>data terminal on most Imperial worlds.)  For the ability to *produce* a
>certain level of technology to `go away' you'd have to have a *severe*
>economic down turn like the Long Night or the Viral Collapse.

But why do you assume that the TL digit of an UWP has anything to do with
_ability_ to produce? To me it makes just as much sense that the TL is
the level of technology actually produced, regardless of capability. That's
why I think an economic downturn can affect TL; when it's no longer 
profitable to build something the society stops doing it, even though they
still could if they had to  -  and we have a TL decline.

>>An example
>>might be our very own space program. How many projects have been cancelled
>>or postponed because of budget constraints? (With the number of NASA people
>>on the list I'm sure I'll get an answer ;)
> 
>As one of those people and a long-time space advocate I have to admit that
>*no* space project has been cancelled or postponed due to budgetary
>constraints.  Budget decisions represent a redirection of *priorities*,
>not a lack of economic resources.  

It dosen't reflect the fact that the ressources to do both isn't there?

>A better example (Oh no, I'm making Hans's point!) might be to compare Detroit
>to the Japanese automakers.  Because Nissan, Toyota and Honda were able to
>produce higher quality automobiles more efficiently there was nearly a
>*de facto* tech level drop in the US.  Nevertheless, even this example 
>only concerns a particular industry which might explain a drop in one
>of the *WBH* tech level specialty areas.  

And if a number of these coincided?

>An overall tech level drop would
>have to affect *several* sectors at the same time.  IMHO, that could only
>be caused by a major economic catastrophe.

That brings us to a dead end. I think it could be caused by less than 
catastrophic declines in economic affairs, but then, I'm profoundly ignorant 
of economics. It's mostly SF to me ;-). So by now we're down to different
articles of faith. So I'm signing off the 'technological cycles' debate
unless someone else interjects new blood. You don't think they're possible, 
I do. End of story. I'd much rather get on with finding out just how a
feudal technocracy actually works.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

Bundle: 629
Archive-Message-Number: 7907
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 94 22:25:37 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE: Regency Government

Gentlesophonts:

Wes Esser <wesley@hd62.haledorr.com> writes:

>          Government Structure of the Regency

First, let me say this is a *fantastic* contribution to our TML Regency
sourcebook, *Shall Not Perish*!  I've just some minor points.

>          The Regent appoints candidates to all executive
>          and judical posts on the sector and subsector levels, subject to
>          confirmation by the Senate.

>          The Moot is the senior chamber of the legislative branch

This above suggests the Senate is the `upper' house rather than the Moot, i.e.
it has more power.

> 	composed
>          of the peers of baronial rank and higher in the realm who serve as
>          long as they maintain their title (usually for life, although
>          abdications do occur).  There is approximately one noble per
>          planet in the Regency

If nobles of baronial rank are to be included there will be *several* per
planet.  Barons are responsible for planetary regions and cities.  Marquises
rule at the planetary level.

> 	and as such, the Moot tends to favor the
>          rights of lower population worlds.

I like this idea but it has to be rectified with the above issue.

>	The members of the Moot are
>          predominantly human.

A good point but one might hope that by the 57th(?) Century folks might have
come to realize that a person of one ethnic group might still be able to
represent the interests of other groups (as opposed to the unfortunately
commonly held view to the contrary in contemporary America).

>          Politically the Moot tends to be dominated by the Aristocratic,
>          Imperiallist and Sovreignist blocks.

>          the Senate tends to hold Democratic/Interventionist views.

Good, good.

>          The judicial branch exists to decide when (or if) Regency law has
>          been violated, and consisists of a series of courts at various

This suggests the aristocracy has given up its traditional judicial role
held under the Imperium.  This is a major change that represents a major
loss of power for the nobility.  Is there a rationale for this loss?

>          The executive branch consists of the Subsector Governors appointed
>          by the Regent and confirmed by the Senate, and Planetary Governors

This represents another loss of power for the nobility.  One wonders just
what the nobility does in the Regency?  And more importantly, how they came
to lose such influence?

>          Moot, and their different focuses (i.e., the population based
>          Senate v. the planet based Moot)

This is a good idea but I'm not sure how to rectify it with the inclusion
of barons in the Moot.  (And I don't see how barons could be excluded either.)
Maybe there is a way to deal with this by adjusting the population levels
for the Senate districts.  How many Senators are there in the Regency at one
per billion population?  Lowering this number to one per half billion (or
less) would increase the number of Senators (and correspondingly the 
influence of hi-pop worlds) with repsect to the barons of the Moot.

>          This gives a fairly compact
>          district of 3,060,900,800 (New Era figures) which is further
>          divided into three subdistricts, each of which elect one Senator.

Electing Senators at-large in any of these mulit-billion districts would
further enhance the influence of hi-pop worlds.  In your example one might
expect Pixie, Yres and Boughene (and possibly part of Menorb) to be included
as one sub-district (and thereby give the smaller worlds a chance at some
representation).  On the other hand, three at-large Senators would all be
likely to come from Menorb.

This is some great work.  I might suggest as a modification leaving the
judicial function in the hands of the nobility.  (They've already been
weakened by the appearance of the Senate abd it doesn't really affect the
split in the power structure you've outlined.)  Furthermore, the Regent's
Governors (subsector and world) are also a big threat to the nobles.  They
also seem to be in direct conflict.  (What's the relationship between the
Duke of Vincennes and the Subsector Governor or the Marquise of Efate and
the Planetary Governor?)  Maybe these Regency executives only exist in fiefs
where the noble patents have been vacated, either through death without
issue or through the dislocations resulting from the Rebellion and the Viral
Assault?  Possibly, for example, there is no longer a Marquis of Glisten
but rather an *ihatei* Governor (I'd prefer `Resident' for worlds to
distinguish them from a subsector Governor) who was appointed by the Regent
when Glisten came back `into the fold'.

Again, Wes, great work!

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 629
Archive-Message-Number: 7908
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 23:20:29 -0600
From: RJR96326@vax1.utulsa.edu (J Roberson)

>Right, but we're not talking about knowledge here, we're talking about
>the ability to *produce* a certain level of technology, i.e. industry.
>(Tech level 15 *knowledge* ought to be available from your local library
>data terminal on most Imperial worlds.)  For the ability to *produce* a
>certain level of technology to `go away' you'd have to have a *severe*
>economic down turn like the Long Night or the Viral Collapse.

The trick is, they're related. You can't simply nhave TL15 knowledge. You
also have to have references to TL14, TL13, TL12, etc to build upon. All of
this takes up space, whther physical or virtual. To use modern equipmetn
analogies, if a world can't afford, or decides to redirect its prioroites,
it may have less "disk space" than is required to hold all the Imperial
TL15 data. So sure, a few places may act as repositories of information,
but it may not be very available, and the world will still have (generally)
access to only TL x.

>*no* space project has been cancelled or postponed due to budgetary
>constraints.  Budget decisions represent a redirection of *priorities*,
>not a lack of economic resources.

And why do we redirect those priorites? Because we can't afford to explore
all of them equally. Six of one - I said it was half empty, and you said
itwas half full.

Creativity over Originality.
Consistency is a Flaw.
J Roberson      RJR96326@vax1.utulsa.edu        Priss@io.com





------------------------------

Bundle: 629
Archive-Message-Number: 7909
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 0:31:15 EDT
From: William White <whitew@eden.rutgers.edu>
Subject: Feudal Technocracy

I tried to post this last week, but it was a no-go.  Since there's still some
discussion re:  feudal technocracies, I thought I'd try again.  Here goes:

                            FEUDAL TECHNOCRACY

     I have been following the Sword Worlds debate with only mild
interest, but a line in one of the posts struck my attention. 
What follows is entirely tangential to that discussion, however.

     One of the participants in the SW thread said, concerning
feudal technocracies, that he or she thought there should be
"something feudal" about them.  That set me to thinking about
what a feudal technocracy is, at least in Traveller terms.

     First, some purely hypothetical statistics as background. 
How often do feudal technocracies occur within the Imperium?  The
number of worlds in the Third Imperium is given as 11,000:  I
don't know where that came from, but I will use it here.  That
means, using the world generation routine given in the rules --


             THIRD IMPERIUM FEUDAL TECHNOCRACIES BY POPULATION

Pop  Freq  Feud Tech:   %Occur     #Occur
 0    2.7%     DR 12     .001         11
 1    5.5%     DR 11     .003         33     
 2    8.3%     DR 10     .007         77
 3   11.1%     DR 9      .012        132 
 4   13.9%     DR 8      .019        209
 5   16.6%     DR 7      .028        303
 6   13.9%     DR 6      .019        209
 7   11.1%     DR 5      .012        132
 8    8.3%     DR 4      .007         77
 9    5.5%     DR 3      .003         33     
 A    2.7%     DR 2      .001         11

               TOTAL =   .112       1227

Pop:           UWP Population Code
Freq:          Population code frequency within Imperium
Feud Tech:     Die roll required for UWP gov code 5
%Occur:        Frequency of UWP gov 5 worlds @ pop code
#Occur:        Number of UWP gov 5 worlds @ pop code     

Thus, approximately one-tenth of the worlds within the Imperium
may be feudal technocracies.  A majority of these are small
communities under one million in population, though a very few
high-pop feudal technocracies exist.  Interestingly, UWP Gov Code
5 may be the mode of the government type data set -- that is, the
most frequently occuring value.  I haven't done the math on that,
but it is intuitive given the results above.
     The above chart implies that feudal technocracies are a
common category of government throughout the Imperium.  It can be
inferred from the above that a feudal technocratic government is
best suited to an intermediate-sized community, for reasons which
may or may not be clear.  I would argue that feudal arrangements,
by defining the relationships among the individual members of a
society, grow too complicated above a certain population size or
density.

     It may be helpful, at this point, to elaborate upon what a
feudal technocracy is.  In a discussion of the concept of
feudalism, a historian named Morris Bishop said that it is "one
of those words that have taken on so many extended and figurative
meanings that the original [one] has been obscured."  Bishop goes
on to say that feudalism "is a total organization of society,"
specifying the status of individuals within its purview, and
establishing implicit and explicit responsibilities among them. 
     In medieval times, this feudalism centered around land,
agriculture, and military service.  In terms of the Third
Imperium, a feudal technocracy may focus on very different
elements.

     The central idea of a feudal society, in any event, is the
codification of the complex web of social, legal, and economic
interrelationships among its members.  The term "government" is
therefore somewhat of a misnomer.  (I suspect that many a feudal
technocracy may appear to be a balkanized world to the untrained
observer.)  UWP Gov Code 5 refers to feudal *societies*.

     If we accept the definition of a "technocracy" to be "a
government by an elite controlling some aspect of the application
of the society's technology", then the worlds to which we assign
UWP Gov Code 5 must meet two criteria.  
     First, the legal rights, responsibilities, and roles of
individuals must be defined in terms of their socioeconomic
status (thus, "feudal").  
     Second, an elite class which controls some critical
technology must make up a privileged, ruling class (ergo,
"technocracy").
     This critical technology may be military technology -- the
lance, armor, and warhorse of the medieval knight, for example --
but does not have to be.  Nor is it necessarily a single
technology:  access to more advanced technical knowledge and
resources may be sufficient.
     However, the existence of a critical technology helps to
differentiate a feudal technocracy from an oligarchy.  It occurs
to me as well that, whereas oligarchies may tend to be relatively
homogeneous ("monolithic" in World Builder's Handbook terms),
feudal technocracies admit more possibility for conflict, as the
elites may sometimes work at cross-purposes -- though within the
social bounds established by the feudal arrangement.

     How many different types of social systems can be posited
which fit the first half of this definition?  I could think of
five; there are probably more.

1.  Traditional Feudalism:  An elite, usually military, ruling
over a producing "proletariat" of farmers and laborers.  A
separate intellectual class may exist, as well as a small
mercantile class.

2.  Corporate Feudalism:  A complex arrangement consisting of
individual economic organizations within which "employees" and
"managers" have certain specified tasks.  "Owners" in one form or
another may serve as the ruling class, but the managerial elite
will, by virtue of their expertise, have considerable power.  The
corporations themselves are bound by a web of economic alliances
and buyer-seller arrangements.

3.  Contract Feudalism:  Within this type of society, economic
relations between individuals are defined in terms of "contracts"
which may be implicit or tacit but which, by certain behaviors,
all parties acknowledge to be legally binding.

4.  Arcological Feudalism:  The society is arranged as one or
more arcologies; that is, self-contained and economically self-
sufficient communities.  As with corporate feudalism, an elite
managerial class of technical experts holds considerable power
within the society.

5.  Caste Feudalism:  All economic roles are hereditary and
confer a greater or lesser degree of social status upon the
possessor.  The highest caste controls the society's critical
technologies.

     It is difficult, perhaps, to imagine a society wherein the
critical technology is not military.  It might help, therefore,
to do some brainstorming on this issue.  Some of the following
may be reasonable:

1.   MEDICAL - The society's elite are the doctors who can extend
or deny life-saving treatment, including anagathics.  Rather than
the Hippocratic Oath, their credo is to advance the interests of
society as a whole by their efforts.

2.  TRANSPORT - In a world where communities are isolated and not
self-sufficient, those who control transport technology exert a
great deal of influence upon other members of the society.

3.  COMPUTER - In a complex economy, those who control the
computers and telecommunications technology that enable it to run
smoothly hold considerable power to direct resources as they see
fit.  In some places, highly advanced AI-like "expert systems"
may be the elite.  ("The Computer is your friend.")

4.  ENERGY - By controlling an industrial society's sources of
energy, those who build, maintain, and direct a world's power
grid can gain considerable political influence and economic
advantage.

5.  ENVIRONMENT - In a hostile environment, the engineers who
control and maintain life support systems are of critical
importance, and may be able to extract political power from their
position.  Alternately, the toxin-removing, food-preparing
"shugilii" of the Vilani may fall into this category.

     The above elements can be combined to provide the referee
with some inspiration when obliged to detail a UWP Gov Code 5
world.  For example, a Pre-stellar world with caste feudalism and
medical technocracy may require the genetic typing of children to
determine their "proper" function in society.  The highest caste
may be the Eugenes, who manipulate the breeding of the lower
castes to achieve their ends.  Lower castes accept the system
with the belief that adherence to "Wedding Protocols" will result
in higher caste offspring, and thereby advancement.
     Travellers to this planet will be struck by its unusual
social structure.  Alien, indeed.  Possibilities for patrons and
adventures exist here, as well.  The Eugenes may wish to improve
the breeding stock by gaining some high-quality off-world genetic
material, and commission the PCs to find suitable donors.  A rich
but low-caste trader might desire the PCs to use their High
Stellar computer expertise to falsify her son's genetic record so
that he will be declared suitable for high caste upon reaching
maturity.

     The point of this admittedly lengthy post is that worlds in
a science fiction adventure should be to some degree alien or at
least exotic, and should serve as gateways to adventures that are
not just "cowboys with rayguns".  Or Star Vikings with assault
rifles.  
     Feudal technocracies, to continue the metaphor, do not have
to be barons with blasters.  

     All the above is IMHO, of course.  I know there are some
holes in my argument.  Any comments, gripes, protestations,
modifications, exhortations, helpful hints, complaints, or
accusations will be greatly appreciated.


Bill White
whitew@eden.rutgers.edu

------------------------------

Bundle: 629
Archive-Message-Number: 7910
Date: Tue, 7 Jun 94 23:03:38 PDT
From: James Kundert <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>
Subject: VDES,NE,GEN: Armor, Editing & Coyns

In response to Tuesday's batch of messages:

 "Les Howie"  <lhowie@Prograph.Com> says:

 >This is a good analysis.  To tell you the truth, I like the feel of being
 >able to armour my dreadnaughts in proper Fisher fashion.

 I'm afraid I don't get the Fisher reference.

 ...
 >Thats fine.  If there is no magic "torpedo" for frying big ships, torpedo
 >boats do not serve a lot of purpose.

 But your own paragraph on tactics indicates part of their role:
Overloading point-defenses and scrubbing surface features.  The standard
missile in TNE is capable of a lot of mayhem, and will scrub surface
bits off of _any_ ship.  The more ships (of any size) you've got firing
these things at the enemy, the less capable the enemy will be to
respond.
 The levels of armor described in Steven M Bonneville's
(bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu) post almost, BUT NOT QUITE, return
us to the days of MT, when anything without a meson gun was harmless
above a certain level.  In TNE, with all of a ship's surface features,
it is quite possible to get a mission kill without penetrating the
armor.  Nothing is completely invulnerable.


 In the "Death Star" post, Les provides the following numbers:

 >Lets assume that we can design the weapon with an ROF of 100.
 >
 >This gives us a discharge energy of 2.26e24 Mj.  Working at 
 >TL 14 and selecting a tunnel length of 250 m (to give a short 
 >range of 10 hexes, the other calculations fall out:
 >
 >3a Effective Tunnel Length 300m
 >3b Tunnel Volume           5.62e24 m^3
 >3c Cross Sectional Area    2.25e22 (a diameter of 8e7 km !!)
 ...

 Even the Ringworld Meteor Defense System is only twice this diameter,
and that's only if you consider the Ringworld itself as the barrel...


 djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson) then asks, in response
to my request for editing:

 >>   All I ask is that the participants start editing in a more
 >> ruthless fashion
 >
 >How am I doing?  :-)

 Much better.  Thank you.  (-:


 Finally, Hans Rancke (rancke@diku.dk) asks at great length about
Droyne Coyns:

 >Now, going down the list here are the symbols I came up with for each coyn:
 >
 >Void	    Nothing engraved. A blank disc.
 >Soil	    A massive cliff. 
 >Air	    A white cloud (ie. the outline of a cloud).
 >Gas	    A black cloud (ie. a filled-in outline of a cloud).
 >Water	    A foam-flecked wave.
 >Fire	    A flame.
 >
 >(Except for the Void and the Fire I'm pretty dissatisfied with these, but
 >they are the best I can come up with. Any suggestions?)

 Perhaps an irregular dirt clod or a symbolic plant growing from the
ground for Soil.  The few Coyn faces we've seen suggest an extremely
symbolic style, IMHO.  The more this can be followed, the more mystified
your players will be.

 >Beast	    A ferocious six-limbed carnivore in mid-jump[6].

 Or perhaps just a paw-print.  Save the ferocious carnivore for the
most dangerous (in your opinion) of the major races that replaced
the animals.

 >Achievement  A brimful cup.
 >Defeat       An empty, tipped-over cup.

 Or a mountain pinnacle with a tiny figure, and a chasm into which a
figure is falling.  The various ways of showing these two are boggling.

 >The Hissayt, Emissyob, Ayvaylk, Bestoy, Nebbay, and Hayyarm are various
 >six-limbed herbivores and omnivores once important to Droyne hunters. I
 >had descriptions of them all worked out, but those notes seems to have
 >dissappeared.

 Since the major races eventually replaced these, they may also represent
specific forms of danger, or specific concerns that the Droyne must
watch for.  Grandfather replaced the original Coyns with new ones that
had different pictures but meant much the same things.  Perhaps the
Droyne once had to worry about the overbearing habits of a particular
omnivore.  This animal had a ever-expanding territorial sense, and was
forever competing with others of its kind to expand that individual
territory.  The Coyn depicting this beast was replaced by the Humaniti
Coyn (or perhaps the Aslan Coyn) as Grandfather's warning.
 Looked at in this way, the Major Race Coyns might also represent
personalities: the Militant (K'Kree), the Meddler (Hivers), the
Curious (Humaniti), the Random (Vargr), and the Migrator (Aslan).
These may still have been represented by animals from Eskayloyt who
embodied these (or other) personality arch-types.


James Kundert <j.kundert@genie.geis.com>
              <james@dumbcat.sf.ca.us>

There was a young lady named Bright,
Whose speed was much faster, much faster than Light.
She departed one day in a relative way,
And returned on the previous Night.
   --Albert & the Heart of Gold

------------------------------

Bundle: 629
Archive-Message-Number: 7911
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 1994 11:16:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Dave Kennard <D_KENNARD@unhn.unh.edu>
Subject: FFS: TL16 laser pistol

To hell with TL12...


TL16 laser pistol

focal array: 4mm  , pulse: 0.0064 Mj , ammo: 4x18 CLC
empty weight: .571 kg , loaded weight: .702 kg
ruggedized to melee standards
bulk: 1  , cost (empty): Cr256
grip magazine: 35   weight: .053/.131 kg   cost:  Cr1 / Cr8.14

ROF: SA  ,  damage: 4 ,  pen: nil  ,  range: 80

options:
 laser sight .5kg,  Cr300 (range 240m)
 optic sight .1kg,  Cr150 (range increases to 92)
 tunable combuster +Cr187

comments:

Small arm Tl16 focal arrays are effectively free & miniscule. The above
4mm FA is sufficient to give no attenuation out to extreme range for a
pistol (including optic sights) in standard atmosphere. It has a nominal
volume of 0.008 cc and a cost of Cr0.004

Of the options, the laser sight is nice but nearly doubles the empty
weight, the optic sight doesn't give enough extra performance to be
expecially worth it, and any of the options add enough to the cost to
take the weapon out of the cheap "Saturday Night Special" market for
which it's intended.


- ----------------------------------
Dave Kennard
dave@unh.edu

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 12 Jun 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #630: Msgs 7912-7922 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun Jun 12 22:00:03 EDT 1994
Reply-To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 12 Jun 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #630: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 630  7912 08-Jun-1994 "Potter, Thomas  Change of address <<      My company ha
 630  7913 08-Jun-1994 "Les Howie"      Battleship Armour -- A Can Openner << S
 630  7914 08-Jun-1994 Steven M Bonnev  Re: Coyns << I like it that someone is 
 630  7915 08-Jun-1994 Steven M Bonnev  Re: Fleet Armor << More on Big Fleet Ac
 630  7916 09-Jun-1994 langsl@cbr.hhcs  More Feudal Technocracy <<             
 630  7917 08-Jun-1994 David Johnson    All: More Feudal Technocracy << Gentles
 630  7918 08-Jun-1994 StarTrek76@aol.  Junque Mail << Dear Fellow Travlers;
 630  7919 09-Jun-1994 v.ujcik@genie.g  Traveller @ Origins << All,
 630  7920 09-Jun-1994 Edward Swatsche  re: Thruster Plate design question << M
 630  7921 09-Jun-1994 Edward Swatsche  re: power plants << Roger "StarWolf" My
 630  7922 09-Jun-1994 john.bogan@asb.  BAY WEAPONS AND DEATH STA <<  "Les Howi

------------------------------

Bundle: 630
Archive-Message-Number: 7912
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 94 16:45:53 EST
From: "Potter, Thomas" <tpotter@smtp-rockville.dynamac.com>
Subject: Change of address


     My company has changed mail services.  My new E-Mail address is :
     TPOTTER@dynamac.com.  If you could change my address in the TML.   
     Also if you could subscribe me on the _OTHER_ TML (the non-TNE). 
     
     Thank you
        Thomas Potter @ DYNAMAC
     

------------------------------

Bundle: 630
Archive-Message-Number: 7913
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 19:30:11 ADT
From: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@192.219.29.90>
Reply-To: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@Prograph.Com>
Subject: Battleship Armour -- A Can Openner

Steve Bonneville <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu> Wrote
[ Brilliant Analysis Deleted]
> If one is willing to armor an expensive battleship a little better 
> than a DE, at 1.77 % of ship volume you can have 71.5 cm of bonded
> superdense armor plating, and an armor rating of 2002.  This is just
> sufficient to stop a TL15 500 kT nuclear detonation x-ray laser dead.
> 
> Note that either value is sufficient to stop any of the "pea-shooter"
> class PAWS in _Brilliant Lances_.
> 
> These armor ratings are very definitely not ridiculous.  If anything,
> they may turn out to be conservative.

I would say quite conservative.  At TL 14 you can construct a 9.5m bay laser
(there is no point in building much larger) feeding 6000 Mj (only 4* a standard
barbette laser) which will throw a penetration over 2000 out to 80 hex
range.  That will not a lot of Damage after pen (about 15 points), but it
is not zero.

Note also there are some trade-offs we can do to get a small ship with a 
laser that has 2000+ pen at very close ranges. 

> It looks to me like the lighter weapons are really only useful for 
> anti-missile fire or to try and scrub the communications and sensory
> antennae off a ship. 

True for the smallest weapons, but is it such a bad idea? Also, you are
going to want to protect your own antennae.
 
> The only other thing I can think of doing with
> them is to try to saturate a big ship's anti-missile defenses and get
> a fusion weapon right up next to it.  So I suppose the *really* big 
> ships like the _Tigress_-types will depend more on what we'd currently
> consider very heavy weapons to do any real damage to the enemy line.
> I have no idea what sort of power the TNE equivalent to the meson-T
> delivers on target, but it is probably massive.  The big ships will
> need to depend on heavy bays to back up the main gun, though, since
> the turrets and "pea-shooter" spinal mounts on escorts won't do much 
> good.  I'm not sure if the 100-ton bays can cut it; I haven't checked.
> 

I think what we may have here is a classic race between armour and armament.
I am not sure how to develop any sort of "optimal" solution for a given
tech level, I guess its the sort of thing that would have to "come out in the
wash" in a given campaign.

While you would depend on the "big gun" spinal mounts to deliver ship-killing
critical hits, I think correct use of Light units (properly designed
for doing damage against armoured targets) would be an important tactical 
consideration.

> As for the _Chrysanthemum_ in a fleet action, well, I guess it really
> is a cheap "tin can".  I suppose it's supposed to be an SDB hunter
> and commerce cutter.
> 
And anti-whatever screen...

I presume BL is built around small combatants (a sort of Mayday on Steroids?)


Les Howie
Prograph International


------------------------------

Bundle: 630
Archive-Message-Number: 7914
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 1994 18:39:24 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: Re: Coyns

I like it that someone is trying to come up with symbols for coyns.
I wonder how much artistic unity they have -- and why some Droyne are
crazy enough to make some sets out of uranium!  Good luck, Hans!

The concept for an Ancient-era coyn for Eskayloyt is interesting, but
it should probably be expressed as "Homeworld", since presumably at
that point it had not yet been lost.  Also, the Ancient period lasted 
long enough that it's possible that the "Human" and "Vargr" coyns were 
added before the Final War; humans, at least, were fairly well 
integrated into quite a number of Ancient societies -- about half, if 
the figures for the 3rd Imperium discovering evidence for some 90+ human 
minor races and charting some 200+ Ancient sites are accurate.  The old 
symbolic implications of those coyns were probably fairly interesting....

I'm not quite sure about the "native beast" replacements, but I don't have
a better suggestion.  "Innocent bystander" races from the Ancient period
that got wiped out by collateral fire in the Final War?  No, that's not
it either.

Hans Ranke <rancke@diku.dk> writes:

>3) Grandfather modified the coyns on later visits and introduced the Aslan,
>   Hiver and K'kree coyns (at least). [_Secret of The Ancients_ p 32].

Note that all six species represented on the coyns are important powers.
Yaskoydray didn't accidentally pick a "minor" race that didn't make it.
And of those six, five developed hyperdrive independently.  It makes one
wonder if he didn't use something like the Zhodani core artifact to peer
into the future.  Or tamper with _TRS Pathfinder_ so that the Aslan got 
jump drive just before they could blow themselves into oblivion.  Either
way, it suggests that all this "Six Races" nonsense is literally a self-
fulfilling prophecy.

>Voyages         A sailing ship.

Or a STL starship -- the pre-Ancient Droyne did have tech-10 without jump
drive for thousands of years before the Ancient period; they even had a
couple of interstellar colonies.  


Also, note some interesting coyn relationships from the table:

Genesis | Aspiration | Sacrifice | Defeat | Death | Achievement
  The life cycle.  Observe the droyne lesson; one is born, dreams,
  makes sacrifices (for the common good?), meets eventual defeat,
  then death, but *then* attains true achievement.  Defeat and death
  are not the victor.  Is this droyne philosophy peeking out?  Or
  even a droyne concept of the after-life?  Interesting.

Darkness | Cold | Noise | Signal | Heat | Light
  A progressively more positive line of "energy" or "positive entropy".
  Note how the pairs work.  The "Void--Fire" series also may work like
  this.

Beast | Mercenary | Voyages | Justice | Chance | Phoenix
  Think of this like the "energy" sextet.  It would then pair from
  closest to most extreme as:  Voyages/Justice, Merc/Chance, Beast/Phoenix.
  
  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>
  

------------------------------

Bundle: 630
Archive-Message-Number: 7915
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 1994 18:40:57 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: Re: Fleet Armor

More on Big Fleet Actions and Armor:

Les Howie <lhowie@Prograph.Com> writes:

>Steven M Bonneville (bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu) wrote:

[part deleted]

>> As for the _Chrysanthemum_ in a fleet action, well, I guess it really
>> is a cheap "tin can".  I suppose it's supposed to be an SDB hunter
>> and commerce cutter.
>> 
>
>Thats fine.  If there is no magic "torpedo" for frying big ships, torpedo
>boats do not serve a lot of purpose.

Well, as I mentioned there might be a possibility of using them in very
large numbers as nuclear missile launchers, and try for a direct hit on
the battleship.  Somehow, I doubt even factor 2000 armor would take well
to having a nuke go off next to it.  Of course, the target solution is
fairly simple once the missiles get that close, so you'd have to fire 
a *lot* of them and concentrate your fire on one enemy target.

Of course, there's a counter-tactic.  For MCr12.5, you can overwhelm a
single standard 150MJ laser turret using standard power, with ten missiles.
It has an ROF of 10 in a thirty minute round, maximum.  (This assumes,
unlike normal space combat, that all shots are effective and destroy one
incoming missile in the zero hex.)  But using FF&S, it is possible to 
build a rapid-fire laser with an ROF of 800 (two shots every five seconds)
which would probably nicely solve the problem.  I don't know what the
power requirements of such an anti-missile laser would be.  Arming the
little fleet escorts with "pea-shooter" meson weapons would probably be 
a better bet if you're trying for serious internal damage.


  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Bundle: 630
Archive-Message-Number: 7916
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 1994 09:41:15 +1000
From: langsl@cbr.hhcs.gov.au
Subject: More Feudal Technocracy


                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                      Date:  Sent on: 09-Jun-1994 09:42am
                                      From:  Alistair Langsford
                                             LANGSFORD ALISTAIR
                                      Dept:  Information Services
                                      Tel No:289 7870

TO:  Remote Addressee                     ( _traveller@engrg.uwo.ca )


Subject: More Feudal Technocracy

    
    David Johnson (djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov) writes:
    
    <This is fine but you have to recognize the `inter-relatedness' of 
    <the feudal system.  The vassals provide local resources (knights, 
    <taxes, etc.) to the lord in return for coordinated services 
    <(military protection). This is what distiguishes a feudal system 
    <from a simple aristocracy where their is no inter-relatedness.
    
    Fine. That is what I am talking about - a Feudal system. I don't 
    mean an Aristocracy which has grown out of a system which is no 
    longer Feudal.
    
    <>          When it comes to 
    <>          managing the industry within a noble's domain, the 
    <>          staff are technical experts in that relevant 
    <>          technologies. This last is the 'technocracy' bit. The
    <>          ruling classes believe in this method of managing 
    <>          industry, which makes them technocrats.
    
    <Yes, this is technocracy but it has no system of 
    <inter-relatedness. 
    
    Perhaps if I say that the technical managers are also vassals of 
    the noble they serve this helps? I didn't think I would have to 
    explicitly point that out, as I thought it was implied already. 
    
    However, with this proviso (ie technical experts being vassals), 
    you have the inter-relatedness. I think we have a reasonable 
    description of what -a- Feudal Technocracy could look like. Thats 
    -a- Feudal Technocracy, not -all- Feudal Technocracies. I was not, 
    by the way, proposing that the system I posted was the ONE TRUE 
    DEFINITION OF FEUDAL TECHNOCRACY. Just that it describes -a- 
    system that fits the term. After all, given Traveller's method for 
    classifying governments, the same government could be classified 
    different ways depending on which aspects of it are seen to be 
    most apparent by the typical traveller. 
    
    <It seems to me that what's happening (and not particularly with 
    <you, Cynthia, nor Hans) is that many folks are confusing 
    <feudalism with aristocracy.
    
    Possibly. In my case I used aristocratic titles (Baron, Knight 
    etc) as terms to identify with Feudal systems from our own earthly 
    history that I am most familiar with, and which other people on 
    the TML might be more familiar with. Obviously I could have been 
    clearer by describing the importance of the mutual obligations 
    between vassals and his/her liege lord.
    
    <Feudalism is based upon mutual obligations between the lord and 
    <his vassals.  An aristocracy has no such requirement.  In 
    <medieval feudal aristocracies these obligations were centered 
    <around military affairs.  
    
    I Agree so far.
    
    <In a feudal technocracy the technocracy `buzz-word' shifts the 
    <focus from military affairs to industrial activities
    
    I agree it can do. I don't agree it automatically does. The 'buzz 
    word' as it has been termed describes an approach to managing 
    industrial resources (see the definition I posted earlier). In 
    Traveller, technology and the industrial capacity for producing 
    high technology weapons is crucial to the ability to wage war. So 
    I think you can still have a high tech militarily centred Feudal 
    system which is technocratic in nature. From what I've seen and 
    heard the Battletech universe is a lot like this. Maybe areas 
    engaged in large scale TCS campaigns are like this too 8-).
    
    
    <>     As with TechLevel definitions, GDW created endless fodder 
    <>     for arguments by mixing structural definitions 
    <>     (Representative Democracy, Tech level of a given artifact),
    <>     with procedural or functional definitions (impersonal 
    <>     bureaucracy, production level of a world).
    <
    <Yes, of course, we all must labor under this confounded burden. 
    <:-)
     
    Which is where we are at the moment, I suspect. 8-))
    
    To me your kieretsu description seems like it -also- fits the 
    description of a Corporate Government. You see it as a good 
    example of a Feudal Technocracy. Given Traveller's way of 
    classifying governments, there is no reason why it can't be both. 
    The classification you choose obviously would show what aspects of 
    the government are most apparent to, or which have most effect on, 
    Travellers. Which ties in with Mark Miller's article on government 
    types way back in JTAS or wherever ( I think it was JTAS ).
    
    By the way, William White recently posted an interesting article 
    on what Feudal means to the XTML that is worth checking out too. I 
    thought it had some nice ideas for variations on the traditional 
    Feudal model.
    
    And since we have gotten on to discussing government types, does 
    anyone else have an example of how they have interpreted a 
    Traveller government type they'd like to post? I'd certainly be 
    interested. After all, it gets a bit boring if all your Feudal 
    Technocracies and Corporate Governments start to look the same. 
    8-)
    
    Alistair,
    langsl@cbr.hhcs.gov.au
    


------------------------------

Bundle: 630
Archive-Message-Number: 7917
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 94 20:59:45 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: All: More Feudal Technocracy

Gentlesophonts:

On XTML (yes, I'm reading it) Bill White <whitew@eden.rutgers.edu> writes:

> I tried to post this on the TML, but it didn't show up.

I'll stick to TML for my response.  I'm sure glad I'm the first to be
able to get into this mess the two lists are going to cause.  :-)

> feudalism "is a total organization of society,"
> specifying the status of individuals within its purview, and
> establishing implicit and explicit responsibilities among them.

Keep this is mind.  This `inter-relatedness' between the participants in
feudalism is the key point that distinguishes it from other government
types.

>      If we accept the definition of a "technocracy" to be "a
> government by an elite controlling some aspect of the application
> of the society's technology", then the worlds to which we assign
> UWP Gov Code 5 must meet two criteria. 

I question this defintion below.
 
>      First, the legal rights, responsibilities, and roles of
> individuals must be defined in terms of their socioeconomic
> status (thus, "feudal").

There is nothing specific about socioeconomic status with respect to
feudalism.  It is rather the differences in the responsibilities of
the various parties that determines their relative *political* power.
A vassal may very well have greater *wealth* than her liege but the
nature of the feudal relationship ties her to her liege nonetheless.

>      Second, an elite class which controls some critical
> technology must make up a privileged, ruling class (ergo,
> "technocracy").

Again, there is nothing about `elites' or `priviledge' inherent in feudalism
*or* technocracy.  Elite trappings from medieval times are related to the
aristocractic relationships based upon heredity between the ruling class
(nobles) and the ruled (commoners).  This was not a feudal relationship
but rather an oligarchic one.

>      This critical technology may be military technology -- the
> lance, armor, and warhorse of the medieval knight, for example --
> but does not have to be.  Nor is it necessarily a single
> technology:  access to more advanced technical knowledge and
> resources may be sufficient.

In medieval feudalism the ruling class controlled *all* forms of technology
as well as the economic basis for that technology.  Furthermore, the modern
meaning of the term technocracy does not pertain to a single type of
technology but instead refers to a source of authority based upon technical
ability in general (as opposed to some other source such as property
ownership, heredity, divine access, popular consent, etc.).  In contemporary
society, technical ability is also closely tied to industrial capability and
the economic base.  This suggests that a feudal technocracy based upon a
single form of technology will be the exception rather than the rule.  Most
feudal technocracies will therefore be based upon an `inter-related'
relationship between those with industrial capabilities.

>      However, the existence of a critical technology helps to
> differentiate a feudal technocracy from an oligarchy.  It occurs
> to me as well that, whereas oligarchies may tend to be relatively
> homogeneous ("monolithic" in World Builder's Handbook terms),
> feudal technocracies admit more possibility for conflict, as the
> elites may sometimes work at cross-purposes -- though within the
> social bounds established by the feudal arrangement.

Actually, it is the fact that the feudal technocracy is based upon
a full range of technological endeavor that permits different segments
of the ruling class to work at cross purposes.  Look at how the hegemony
of the AMA has been rattled now that insurance providers and employers have
entered the health care debate.

>      How many different types of social systems can be posited
> which fit the first half of this definition?  I could think of
> five; there are probably more.

These are all interesting suggestions but some might be better classified
as types other than feudal technocracies.

> 1.  Traditional Feudalism:  An elite, usually military, ruling
> over a producing "proletariat" of farmers and laborers.

This is the oligarchic or aristocractic aspect of medieval society.  It
was called serfdom.  The feudal relationship existed *between* the members
of the ruling class (lords and vassals), not between the ruling class and
the commoners.

> 2.  Corporate Feudalism:  A complex arrangement consisting of
> individual economic organizations within which "employees" and
> "managers" have certain specified tasks.

This is more akin to an aristocratic model.  In most corporate systems
the employees will serve at the whim of management.  Even heavily unionized
systems that limit management's ability to replace workers still do not
create any obligation upon management toward the workers other than that
of continued employment.  If management chooses to run the
company into the ground, the workers are powerless and unable to stop
them or correct the move - at least not through any agreed upon and 
previously defined relationship.

> corporations themselves are bound by a web of economic alliances
> and buyer-seller arrangements.

Here is the system of `inter-relatedness' that characterizes the Japanese
*kieritsu* and begins to describe the true nature of a feudal technocracy.

> 3.  Contract Feudalism:  Within this type of society, economic
> relations between individuals are defined in terms of "contracts"
> which may be implicit or tacit but which, by certain behaviors,
> all parties acknowledge to be legally binding.

This is essentially redundant but it describes the mechanics of the
feudal relationship quite well.

> 4.  Arcological Feudalism:  The society is arranged as one or
> more arcologies; that is, self-contained and economically self-
> sufficient communities.

Again, self-sufficiency makes a feudal relationship problematic.  Without
the need for `inter-relatedness' there can be no feudal relationship.

> 5.  Caste Feudalism:  All economic roles are hereditary and
> confer a greater or lesser degree of social status upon the
> possessor.

This is another aristocractic form.  Basing authority upon heredity
removes the need for an agreed upon relationship between parties based
upon their `inter-relatedness'.  Under a caste system there is no
obligation placed upon the upper castes toward the lower castes.

> 1.   MEDICAL - The society's elite are the doctors who can extend
> or deny life-saving treatment, including anagathics.

If medical practitioners can deny their services at will then this
is an aristocractic relationship, not a feudal one.

> 2.  TRANSPORT - In a world where communities are isolated and not
> self-sufficient, those who control transport technology exert a
> great deal of influence upon other members of the society.

Again, there must be some sort of `inter-relatedness' for this relationship
to be feudal.

> 3.  COMPUTER - In a complex economy, those who control the
> computers and telecommunications technology that enable it to run
> smoothly hold considerable power to direct resources as they see
> fit.  In some places, highly advanced AI-like "expert systems"
> may be the elite.

Again, this may be a technocracy but it is not feudal.  Am I beginning
to sound like a broken record?  (Please stop, Dave.  Dave?  What are
you doing, Dave?  Dave?  Please stop . . . .  Daisy, daisey, give me your
answer, do . . . .)

>      The above elements can be combined to provide the referee
> with some inspiration when obliged to detail a UWP Gov Code 5
> world.

This has been some excellent work and is quite a contribution to anyone's
campaign.  It may even fit many folk's view of government code 5 but I
think we could be more careful in our defintions of any type of government
if instead of focusing upon the particular manifestations of a certain
government type, in this case various forms of technology, we instead 
focus upon the nature of authority (who has it) and the source of that
authority (how it is legitimized).

>      All the above is IMHO, of course.  I know there are some
> holes in my argument.  Any comments, gripes, protestations,
> modifications, exhortations, helpful hints, complaints, or
> accusations will be greatly appreciated.

Same goes here.

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 630
Archive-Message-Number: 7918
From: StarTrek76@aol.com
Date: Wed, 08 Jun 94 23:58:47 EDT
Subject: Junque Mail

Dear Fellow Travlers;
     Want to stepup to the world of multi-media? Then this is for you!!!
Dear Correspondants:

	As with last week's Junque Mail, I'm here again pushing
some obsolete multi-media hardware/software. OOPS! I don't mean
the Hardware or Software is obsolete, only that I am dis-investing 
in multi-media [the big buzz-word in computers today]. I have
decided that since I use the CD/ROM drive in my system less than 
once a month, it is a luxery I can no longer afford. OH! One more
thing, this unit is an IBM PC compatible unit. It WILL work with
Apple MacIntosh also, but you'de have to buy drivers etc for it,
as the ones I have that I'm throwing in are for the IBM.
	So, here we go again. 
	FOR SALE ---- ONE CD/ROM DRIVE with Accessories.
The drive itself is an external model, so if you have a small 
computer with zero internal drive bays left, it won't matter. The
DM-5024 is manufactured by the Texel Corporation, a Japaneese firm
with local offices in Santa Clara, California. It comes in a 
9.5 x 10 x 2.125 inch white plastic enclosure with its own internal
power supply, and an internal audio amplifier for CDs with sound
clips on them.
	The Interface card and the software are manufactured by 
Trantor Systems, Inc of Freemont, Ca. Both the Drive unit and the 
SCSI interface card have very extensive documentation. The software
documentation is contained on the disks themselves in the form
of read.me and help files. 
	The accessories pack for this excellent value includes:
the CD caddy [of course!] a pair of stereo headphones for the
drive's audio amplifier, all the connecting cables and hardware
necessary to install this unit in an IBM PC {I don't know about
the MacIntosh ... but both the drive and SCSI interface ARE com-
patible with Apple.} and TEN CDs complete with any auxilliary
software necessary to run them, jewel cases for each CD, and of 
course the documentation on these CDs.
	The CDs are: 1] PUBLISH IT! (version 2.0) by Timeworks 
software. This CD includes a built in graphics tool box, 69 fonts,
a thosand clip art images, 85 ready to use sample layouts and a
complete word processor. [plus THICK users manual. The others
all have documentation, but Publish It is the best.
	2] The Aircraft Encyclopedia by Quantum Press
	3] CD Game Pack II by Software Toolworks
	4] GUIDE Star Charts (Version 3.0) Probably the best
Star Chart/Planetarium program available in the USA today. See
Review in a recent (June or July, 93) issue of Sky and Telescope.
	5] US History on CD/Rom by Bureau Development Corp.
	6] US Atlas and AUTO MAP by Software Toolworks
	7] Software Toolworks Multimedia Encyclopedia - is what
I was using the most often.
	8] The Best of Media Clips, by ARIS entertainment. This 
disk has photographs, .wav and .midi sounds and other neat multi-
media things.
	9] Selected Astronomical Catalogs from NASA, the guys who
brought you the Challenger Disaster. This disk is a pretty good
one however, full of diffrent star catalogs, including the Yale 
Bright Star Catalog and the Gliese catalogue.
	10] North American Indians, by Quanta Press.
All these CDs are contained in a hansome, utilitarian plastic 
"media Mate" which will keep them handy, safe and out of the way
when you're not using them.

	The price of this complete package is $550.00 {US$ only}.  As for shipping,
I'll pick up the first $20.00 - which will be enough to send this via 3rd
class slow-boat to china mail in the US.  After that, YOU pay the shipping.
The package, which is all packed, just waiting for a lable weighes 18 pounds
[better round off to 20 to account for vagerencies in bathroom scales.] Now
you can shop around and decide for yourself how fast and how much ...

     Anyone interested in this should contact me, electronically via E.Mail,
before the 4th of July. The price of $550.00 for the entire package is
guarenteed until then. 

StarTrek76@aol.com
or
R.BLACKBURN2@genie.geis.com


------------------------------

Bundle: 630
Archive-Message-Number: 7919
From: v.ujcik@genie.geis.com
Date: Thu,  9 Jun 94 03:53:00 UTC
Subject: Traveller @ Origins

All,
 
     All those going to Origins next month, please raise you hand.
Don't be shy....raise 'em high!
 
     I would be glad to act as coordinator for a get-together of
whatever type is agreed upon....meal, room, game session, multiples
of the above, etc, etc.
 
     While both Loren Wiseman and Frank Chadwick are listed as
special guests, there is a dearth of Traveller listed in the
convention guide. So I thought I'd try to get some interest
sparked. Maybe we can even talk them into giving a special talk
just to the Traveller types attending
 
     I'm cross posting this to the TML, xboat, and on GEnie.
 
     I'm not sure if it's a good idea to post back through the
mailing list, (if James says it's okay, then do) so I'll take info
via personal email. If I get enough response, I'll post a summary
or two back to the mailing lists. Let me know when you're arriving
and departing, times you are definitely *not* available to meet
(i.e. other game or seminar you're attending), and type of meeting
you'd prefer.
 
     Oh yeah, no flames will be tolerated about different versions.
If there is enough interest, we can break up in order to
accommodate the TNE haters and the CT/MT despisers. However, I'm
just offering my services as an unbiased intermediary. This is a
representative democracy (tm) and the majority will be allowed to
guide the discussion. The attender assumes all
liability.....whoops, got carried away there.
 
     Anyway, I'm not a Hater or a Despiser, so I'm open to email
from all! Hope to see some of you there....
 
               Happy Travellering,
 
                    Duke James of Ujcik
                    (aka Jim Ujcik)
 
Certified Flight Instructor-Instruments                   Amateur: WD9HBC/6
GEnie: v.ujcik                             Internet: v.ujcik@genie.geis.com
 

------------------------------

Bundle: 630
Archive-Message-Number: 7920
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 94 00:52:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: re: Thruster Plate design question
From: Edward_Swatschek@mindlink.bc.ca (Edward Swatschek)

Mark Urbin wrote:

> I'm designing a ship (a jump capable starship in my case) with Thruster
> Plates. I'm operating under the impression that the Thruster Plates
> provide lift as well as thrust.


   Thruster plates only provide thrust.  Going by DGP's explanation in SoM,
thruster plates can change the direction of thrust, but the amount of
thrust decreases as it moves away from its main axis, so you get only 10%
thrust in reverse.  A short, squat ship with it's thruster on the bottom (a
tradition flying saucer or cone shape for example) would be the best
configuration for a ship - uncomplicated VTOL ability, and the decks are at
right angles to the normal axis of thrust and the ground; if you lose your
inertial compensators or are sitting on the ground, the g-forces are coming
from the accustomed direction.

   You can, of course, define how it works for your own purposes.  You
could have thruster plates act on a volume like the contra-grav lifters.
This way you don't have to worry about the placement of the drive or the
axis of thrust.  , Another consequence is there won't be any feeling of
acceleration due to the drive - the drive is acting to accelerate on
everything in the volume.


- --
               Edjs                    _
              ------                _ //  CI$  : 76427,662
   Edward_Swatschek@mindlink.bc.ca  \X/   GEnie: E.SWATSCHEK


------------------------------

Bundle: 630
Archive-Message-Number: 7921
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 94 00:54:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: re: power plants
From: Edward_Swatschek@mindlink.bc.ca (Edward Swatschek)

Roger "StarWolf" Myhre wrote:

> One other thing that eat up space is the powerplant. Where did the size
> modifier go? I think someone asked this before. If GDW read this list,
> I'ld appreciate an answer on these questions.


   The scale efficiences modifier was eliminated.  But, the need for power
has diminished as well.  The MT Subsidized Merchant had a 1476 MW
poerplant; the TNE version has a 282 MW plant.  In MT, your basic ship
laser required 250 MW;  adding 4 lasers to the merchant requires 68% of its
installed power.  Only 6% is required for the TNE version (4 lasers at 4.2
MW each).  This makes it easier for characters to arm their ships.

   Engineering crew seems to be making up for the shrinkage in power
plants. :)  One recent design, a 20kt battle rider, required 840 engineers
(this with TL-16 computers) - plus the 140 cmd crew.  Using the power
plant's volume instead of output gives somewhat more acceptable numbers.
Meson guns are almost as bad as power plants: a TL15, 25600 Mj MG (see
below) requires a crew of 128.



TL  Description    BoreD BoreA   Power    Vol     Mass   Length   Crew
Cost
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

15   6 400 Mj  MG    9     64    1 778   17 347  11 850   250      32
1612
15  25 600 Mj  MG   18    256    7 111   69 376  47 386   250     128
6445
15  57 600 Mj  PAW   3.6   10   64 000   14 219  21 965   240       8
509


TL   Description     Short      Medium     Long       Extreme    ROF
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
15   6 400 Mj  MG    10: 400    20: 200    40: 100    80:  50    100
15  25 600 Mj  MG    10: 800    20: 400    40: 200    80: 100    100
15  57 600 Mj  PAW   10:1200    20:1200    40:1200    80:1200    800


BoreD, BoreA: bore diameter and area.


- --
               Edjs                    _
              ------                _ //  CI$  : 76427,662
   Edward_Swatschek@mindlink.bc.ca  \X/   GEnie: E.SWATSCHEK


------------------------------

Bundle: 630
Archive-Message-Number: 7922
From: john.bogan@asb.com
Date: Thu, 09 Jun 94 02:45:41 
Subject: BAY WEAPONS AND DEATH STA


 "Les Howie"  writes

> 

Steven M Bonneville (bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu) wrote:
 
> 
> It looks to me like the lighter weapons are really only useful for 
> 
> anti-missile fire or to try and scrub the communications and sensory
> 
> antennae off a ship.  The only other thing I can think of doing with
> 
> them is to try to saturate a big ship's anti-missile defenses and get
> 
> a fusion weapon right up next to it.  So I suppose the *really* big 
> 
> ships like the _Tigress_-types will depend more on what we'd currently
> 
> consider very heavy weapons to do any real damage to the enemy line.
> 
> I have no idea what sort of power the TNE equivalent to the meson-T
> 
> delivers on target, but it is probably massive. 

I've designed a cruiser-sized meson gun, resonably sized for that class of
ship, with a DV of 1000 (yes, one thousand).  A Tigress could sport something
even larger, possibly with a DV several times that, depending on how
specialized
you want to design the ship.

> >  The big ships will
> 
> need to depend on heavy bays to back up the main gun, though, since
> 
> the turrets and "pea-shooter" spinal mounts on escorts won't do much
> 
> good. 
  
>   I'm not sure if the 100-ton bays can cut it; I haven't checked.

I have, and bay weapons tend to be pretty useless except as hull-scrapers.

If a PA is operating at the maximum Mj for it's length, its penetration value
works out
to 5 times it's length in meters within it's effective range.

I don't have the exact numbers here, but for a 50-ton bay that works out to
a PV of 60, and for a 100-ton bay a PV of about 80.  Considering that cruisers
and battleships will have armor ratings in the THOUSANDS, they're only
good for blinding the enemy (a tactic which will be very popular in battles
under
BL rules, I should think.)

Bay mesons have such pitiful range they're not worth building in most cases.

Lasers should be limited to about 50 Mj/tech-level, which is an arbitrary
limit,
but is needed for game balance.  Joule for joule, lasers are more versatile
than
PA's or MG's and have a superior ability to deliver damage to the target.
Allow them to compete directly, and there rapidly becomes no point to building
PA's and MG's.  Putting a limit on them keeps them at the low end of the
weapons
spectrum, where they have traditionally been in Traveller.



> 

Well, so much for the Meson armed death star -- back to the 
drawing board, Darth.

> 


Les Howie
> 
Prograph International


- -------

P'shaw, I tried that ages ago with High Guard.  Threw in the towel when I
realized
I'd have to depopulate most of a sector just to crew the engine room. 
Considering
TNE ships have a crew requirement 3 to 4 times that of HG...

That's it!  The Virus was a hoax!  All those people never died, they were
pressed
into service to crew Lucan's Death Star!

Well, I can wish, can't I?  ;-)


John Bogan

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
