To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 22 May 94 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #611: Msgs 7671-7679 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun May 22 22:00:03 EDT 1994
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TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 May 94 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #611: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 611  7671 19-May-1994 "KMCCARTHY"      None <<                        Subject:
 611  7672 19-May-1994 CHiggin@aol.com  Sacnoth << Discussion between David Joh
 611  7673 19-May-1994 Roger Sanger     They Came From Beyond - #4 <<  
 611  7674 19-May-1994 mgood@MIT.EDU    Unsub Me! << I didn't mind all the TNE 
 611  7675 19-May-1994 Goldman of Chao  Re: Strephon's fate and others. <<  Rog
 611  7676 19-May-1994 "Mitchell Schwa  Wilds Adventures << Roger Sanger asks:
 611  7677 19-May-1994 "Mitchell Schwa  Deep Space 2: More comments << Gerald w
 611  7678 19-May-1994 Steven M Bonnev  Imperial Armed Forces, 5FW << Ooh boy, 
 611  7679 19-May-1994 James T Perkins  Admin Q&A, ftp.engrg.uwo.ca status << Q

------------------------------

Bundle: 611
Archive-Message-Number: 7671
Date: 19 May 1994 12:22:25 U
From: "KMCCARTHY" <KMCCARTHY@qmgate.osc.hq.nasa.gov>
Subject: None

                       Subject:                               Time:11:59 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          None                                   Date:5/19/94

Peter H. Brenton <pete@biochem.uchicago.edu> writes:

>Ok, Now my questions.  How many combat battalions in an Imp. Marine
>Division?  How many companies per battalion?  Platoons per company?
>Troops per platoon?  Are companies combined arms? or are platoons?
>Is artillery organic to the Battalion? or the company?

Today, generally the Rule of Three prevails.  Three combat platoons makes a
company, three combat companies make a battalion, etc.  There is no "Law of
War" that makes this a golden rule.  What is important is the span of control
of the commanders.  Of course that can change with technology.

>Translation of above;  What does the Table of Organization and Equipment
>look like for a Marine Division?  I've made some suggestions above, but >am 
>not familiar enough with military organization to know "what works"
>and what doesn't.  What "monkey wrench" would get thrown into Marine
>organization within the imperium?  Perhaps a few incompetent Noble
>commanders?

Before you do the TOE of the Division you need to hypothesize how the Division
fights and what effect TL-15  would have on combat.  Suppose all of the
infantry would be TL-15 Battle Dress, Grav Belts and Fusion Rifles.  How are
they employed that is different from today's infantry units?  What kind of
logistical tail would this require.  What if they had battle dress but not grav
belts?  Do you need Grav Tank support?  Etc., etc., etc.

If want some basic info and/or help I have a good knowledge of US Army TOE and
some relivent background, 4 years in the 82nd Airborne Div and 8 in the Special
Forces.

>Remeber that Marines are probably often deployed as companies, and 
>should have
>many of the divisional services provided at lower organizational levels
>(A combat engineer squad?  I guess we could get carried away.)

A more effective method would be attached troops/units.  The Task Force concept
is used extensively by  the US Army to tailor make Co., Bn. and Bde. task
forces for specific missions.  Units are attched as needed to accopmlish
specific missions.

PS: Can a TL-15 4mm Guass rifle penetrate TL-15 Battle Dress?





------------------------------

Bundle: 611
Archive-Message-Number: 7672
From: CHiggin@aol.com
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 13:01:05 EDT
Subject: Sacnoth

Discussion between David Johnson & Hans Rancke:

 >  This is what the *JTAS* Contact article suggests.  My suggestion
 >  is that that entire `real man' schtick for the Sword Worlds is all
 >  just a bunch of Imperial propaganda.  I suspect the Sword Worlders
 >  are no more `paternalistic, macho, vain, braggarts' than Zhodani
 >  are `mind-sucking, inhuman totalitarians' once the veneer of
 >  Imperial propaganda is removed.

I've been watching this discussion for a while, and it has prompted me 
to post some of my own material on Sacnoth.  Regarding the above, I 
sifted through the description of the Sword Worlders in the Contact 
article, compared it to the apparent Imperial standards of behavior, 
compared the Imperial culture to 1980's American culture (the two are 
quite different), and concluded that Sword Worlders are probably a lot 
like conservative 1970's Americans.  By *IMPERIAL* standards, the 
SWers are `paternalistic, macho, vain, braggarts'; by 1990 normal 
American standards, they *might* be mildly sexist and/or racist; by 
1990 American liberal standards, they're Republicans :-).  By 1970 
American standards, they're just plain folks.  

What follows is my campaign summary for Sacnoth:
 
Sacnoth is a very Earth-like world, one of the most Earth-like in the 
entire Spinward Marches.  It is slightly smaller than Earth, and the 
gravity is slightly lower (0.89 G).  There is slightly more than half 
as much water (49% of the surface area).  Its sun is somewhat brighter 
than Earth's - an F9 V. The temperature and climate is about the same, 
though there are more local climatic extremes due to more land and 
less water to buffer the climate than Earth has.  The atmosphere is 
standard O2-N2 mix, but polluted from Sacnoth's industries and cities.  
Fortunately, Sacnoth's medical and environmental technology keeps up 
with the resultant health problems.  It has a long day, 33.68 hours, 
and a long year (504 Sacnoth days, 708 Earth days).  The seasons are 
correspondingly long, and, in the early days of Sacnoth's settlement, 
the six months of winter resulted in a very high rate of clinical 
depression and suicide.  At the present time, this hazard is averted 
by light-enhancing interior design and customary use of 
stimulant-laden drinks during the winter.  (They drink lots of 
coffee-type drinks.)  Winter Melancholy is still a frequent 
affliction, but is almost instantly recognizable and easily treated.  

Sacnoth is inhabited by 8.91 billion people, the overwhelming majority 
of which are human (A very few Vargr, no Aslan, no minor races), 
mostly of Solomani descent.  There are some people of mixed 
Vilani-Solomani blood, but the cultural heritage is overwhelmingly 
Solomani Scandinavian-Germanic.  The major population centers are the 
megalopoli of Berkagerdi, Trettigard, Jordestad, Tyssestad, and 
Asarna, and various other, lesser cities (under 100 million).  The 
megalopoli are divided into city-sized administrative units called 
Cantons, ruled by a noble of at least Baronial rank.  There are two 
city-sized orbital habitats, Vemdalhavn and Eyrarhavn, and many 
smaller, factory-sized installations.  The shipyards of Berkagerdi and 
Vemdalhavn are capable of building up to 5000 ton starships, and a 
variety of non-starships.  

The current government of Sacnoth is a feudal monarchy (NOT a 
constitutional monarchy!); the current King is Harald VII.  He is the 
same monarch who ruled before the war, though certain of his advisors 
were ousted in the political re-alignment that resulted in the 
formation of the Border Worlds.  Sacnoth nobles traditionally have 
families late in life (age 75 to 125), and King Harald's heir, Prince 
Johann, was killed in naval combat during the war, so the question of 
succession is somewhat uncertain right now.  Current politics revolve 
around the succession question, and the very real resentment felt by a 
significant fraction of the population (esp.  the military) at 
"knuckling under" to the Imperium and "becoming an Impy puppet state".  
The military in particular feels betrayed by the government they 
served so loyally, much like the German Army after WWI.  

Transportation is uniformly gravitic; wheeled vehicles are quaint 
museum pieces from other worlds -- much like chariots in the real 
world.  Sacnoth builds very high quality grav vehicles (TL 13).  
Sacnoth medical technology is extremely advanced (TL 14); if there are 
any pieces of you left to put back together, they can probably fix 
you.  As a result, in addition to the standard crimes defined now, 
violence against another person falls into the categories of Assault, 
Lethal Assault, and Murder.  Murder is an Assault that results in 
permanent death, whereas Lethal Assault is an Assault that results in 
temporary death (dead, but resuscitated later).  

The standard of living is uniformly high, though there are always 
people who are less advantaged than others.  However, there are no 
"backward" parts of the world.  As is to be expected in a world of 
almost 9 billion people, laws and regulations affect most fields of 
endeavour, but are not particularly oppressive -- just annoying.  
Paper is another quaint historical curiousity, but entering data into 
administrative databases is still called "paperwork".  Sacnoth's 
industries are mostly automated, but household robots are unknown and 
the use of robots to replace anything besides dumb manual labor is 
virtually unknown.  However, all equipment more sophisticated than a 
broom is quite "smart" (think modern microwave oven, but voice 
controlled, for example).  

 
 A few noted products/brand names:
 
 Husqvarna - energy weapons, gauss weapons 
 Nibellung Gravitics - grav vehicles - Enclosed air/raft
 Tonsonig Metals - fissionables, industrial crystals, basic alloys 
   
  System Fleet - After FFW 

about 70% of Sacnoth's fleet was destroyed during the Fifth Frontier 
War.  What remains include 32,000 heavy fighters, approx.  600,000 
tons Jump-3 capable (avg 50,000 tons?, approx 12 hulls), 4.8 million 
tons Jump-2 capable, and 7.2 million tons Jump-1 capable (avg 5000 
tons, 2 biggest 30,000 tons, total approx 1440 hulls).  

World Builder's Handbook write-up:
 
 Spinward Marches 1325 / Sacnoth B775956-C
 
 diameter: 11500km    density: 1.02     mass:  .68    surface G: 0.89
 Rotation:   33.68  hrs                 year: 505.54 local/708.04Earth days
 axial tilt:    26    Eccentricity:     0    satellites:
 core: molten         seismic stress:
 atm pressure:   1.0 atm                atm composition: O2-N2 w/pollutants
 Hydro: 49%                             Hydro comp: H2O
 
 BMST: 15.4 C
 summer mod:   15.60 ecc mod:        0 day mod:     7.57 Rfactor:      .90
 winter mod:     -26 lat mod:        6 nite mod:  -16.84
 
 HEX ROW              Summer              Winter
                      day     night      day      night
      1                40.98    16.57      40.98    16.57
      2                34.98    10.57      34.98    10.57
      3                32.88     8.47      22.48    -1.93
      4                30.78     6.37       9.98   -14.43
      5                28.68     4.27      -2.52   -26.93
      6                26.58     2.17     -15.02   -39.43
      7                20.58    -3.83     -21.02   -45.43
      8                14.58    -9.83     -27.02   -51.43
      9                 8.58   -15.83     -33.02   -57.43
     10                 2.58   -21.83     -39.02   -63.43
     11                -3.42   -27.83     -45.02   -69.43
 
 Mapping: 7 plates
 Resources: radioactives, crystals, agroproducts, non-metals, parts,
durables,
 recordings, software
 
 population:  8.91E9        native life: yes
 
 City/port:                 Port Pop    Orbital City  Port Pop
  ---------------------------------   ---- ---   ------------------ ---
  Trettigard                           B 4E9     Vemdalhavn     B  7E6
  Berkagerdi                           B 3E9    Eyrarhavn    F  6E6
  Jordestad                F 7E8
  Tyssestad                F 5E8
  Asarna                    F 2E8
  ??????                    H 9E7
  ??????                    H 5E7
  ??????                    H 4E7
  ??????                    H 4E7
  ??????                    H 3E7
  ??????                    H 1E7
  33 x                    H 5E6
  90 x                    H 5E5
  330 x                    H 5E4
  RURAL                       1.05E7
 
 
 Social Outlook:
     Progressiveness        Att: Conservative    Act: Advancing
     Aggressiveness        Att: Competitive    Act: Neutral
     Extensiveness        Global: Discordant
                 Interstellar: Aloof
 
 Customs: nobles have families late in life, stimulant drinks used during
 winter, Lethal Assault and Murder are different crimes,
 
 Government:    Ruler (no division)
 
 Legal:
     Uniformity -
     Profile: 6-69775
 
 Technological:
     Profile: CC-CBBED-DDDC-DC-E
    
   
 SYSTEM DATA
 
     Primary : F9 V
 
     Orbit:    0    DM companion
 
         1    EMPTY
 
         2    G880236-C(9)    Muspelheim    Mn Re Nv
 
         3    Y550000-0    Surtheim
             10  Y100000-0
             30  Y100000-0
 
         4    B775956-C(8)    Sacnoth
 
         5    SGG [84 0.16 185 1.68]    Niffleheim
              7  YS00000-0
              8  H400000-B(9)
             60  YS00000-0


    
                        -- Cynthia Higginbotham


    "Q:  What is the difference between the BATF and the Gestapo?"
    "A:  BATF agents speak English."




------------------------------

Bundle: 611
Archive-Message-Number: 7673
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 10:18:31 -0700
From: rodge@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger)
Subject: They Came From Beyond - #4

 
 
 
 
 
 
                    ---------------------
                    THEY CAME FROM BEYOND
                          episode 4
                    ---------------------
 
 
Baraka made it to the Galaxia Deluxe.  The air-lock took longer
than normal.  Baraka's fear of being trapped reached an all-time
peak, despite the apparently normal people sharing the air-lock
with him.  He had his hand in his pouch ready to draw his plastic
pistol when the inner doors started to open.  He thought he heard
a scream...
 
He started to draw his weapon, but realized it was nothing more
than bad bearings on one of the door motors.  Baraka sighed
deeply, and just stood there as the others left the air-lock for
the hotel's busy lobby.  Baraka poked his head out, looking first
to the left, then to the right.  The people looked normal enough.
 
With a slight smile on his bugeyed face, Baraka weaved his way to
the public vidcomms.  He slid his credcard into the slot and
keyed in a sequence.  The screen said "Calling James L. Tiberius.
Waiting for answer, please stand by..."  Baraka wondered why the
phone had no voice.  Still slightly paranoid, as he waited Baraka
glanced from individual to individual in the lobby to see if he
could spot any that were not quite normal.  He couldn't.
 
"Baraka, how many times have I told you never to call me here?"
The man on the screen was in his fifties, his face covered with 3
days growth of grey whiskers.
 
Startled, Baraka replied, "James, am I GLAD to see YOU.  My cover
is blown.  I'm choking.  You've got to help me!"
 
"I'm retired, remember?  Call the precinct."
 
Baraka couldn't stand his friend's condescending tone, it almost
always frustrated him.  "There's something weird going on in that
neighborhood.  I'd be a sitting duck in there."
 
"You and your paranoia.  You'll be fine."
 
Baraka started to raise his voice, but remembered where he was
and moved in closer to the mic instead.  "They're insane.  I
killed two of them."
 
"What the hell are you talking about?"
 
Baraka, looking quite serious now, stared into the vid-dot
sitting just above the phone's screen and lied through his teeth.
"Two of Eddy's boys came to get me.  I killed them both.  I had
to, or I was dead meat."  Well, at least it was partially true.
He was trying to follow Jorga Porshe's example -- don't tell the
truth if it will land you in the funny farm.
 
"Where are the bodies?  What did you do with the bodies?"
 
Baraka slapped his hand over the speaker, and leaned closer to
the mic, and whispered loudly, "Keep it down, would ya?  There
are people all around."
 
Jim said something, but he couldn't hear him.
 
Baraka wanted him to see the bodies, or at least what was left of
them.  He fantasized about being Jorga Porshe, suave, always with
the right plan, and the right thing to say.  "Physical evidence,"
he mumbled to himself, as his hand slid down off the speaker.
 
"What?"  Jim was obviously getting irritated.  "What evidence?
Where's the murder weapon?"
 
Baraka's mind began to wander.  *Baraaaaaaka*  *Baraaaaaaka*
 
"Baraka!"
 
He snapped out of it, glad to be free of the horrifying
flashback.  He started to puke, but was already emptied out.
 
Jim was convinced something was up.  "Where are the bodies?"
 
"In my apartment."
 
The ex-detective paused, then stated sternly.  "Baraka, I want
you to stay where you are.  I'm going to call the precinct now.
Everything is going to be okay."
 
Baraka, looking quite pekid, shook his head slowly.  "You owe
me.  I need your help."
 
There was a long pause.
 
Years ago, when Detective Tiberius was undercover to bust up a
small exodrine smuggling operation, Baraka had saved his life.
Had James taken that drink, he wouldn't be alive today.  He
befriended Baraka after that, and swore that he would repay the
deed.  "If ever you need my help," he had said, "I'll be
there."
 
Jim took a deep breath.  "Alright, I'll see you at your apartment."
 
Baraka's eye's grew wide.  "No way!  I'm not going back there."
 
"Meet me there in 1/2 an hour."  Bzzzt.  The screen went blank.
The words "Thankyou for using Telequick" appeared on the screen.
 
It was quite comfortable in the lobby, yet, despite his jumpsuit,
Baraka was shivering.  He didn't feel very good.
 
*Baraaaaaaka*
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
To be continued...
Rodge
 

------------------------------

Bundle: 611
Archive-Message-Number: 7674
From: mgood@MIT.EDU
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 13:36:17 -0400
Subject: Unsub Me!








I didn't mind all the TNE vs. CT stuff that much.








But I couldn't take all those spaces in Rodger's messages.






So please unsubscribe me.  I asked rodge@cyberspace.com to
please stop putting in all those spaces.








But he said it was his posting style.


So unsub me, and if he stops, someone please let me know.






mgood@mit.edu

------------------------------

Bundle: 611
Archive-Message-Number: 7675
Subject: Re: Strephon's fate and others.
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 15:02:57 CDT
From: goldman@orac.cray.com (Goldman of Chaos -- postmaster CRI-US)
Reply-To: goldman@orac.cray.com

 Roger Sanger said the following:
 >  
 > Whatever happened to Strephon?  In your campaign that is.
 
 Hee, hee, hee.
 	Steve Gumnit assassinated him back in 1979 or so.  In real
 	world time 1979.  Game time was also 1979 Terran dating system
 	as well!
 
 	Any number of folks after that attempted to grab the Iridium
 	hot seat since then.  The few that successfully managed to
 	take it found that it really wasn't worth having.  It is
 	really hard to keep a low profile when you are Emperor!
 
 	I had a group that was around when Strephon was assassinated
 	ala GDW; however, they were really far out on the rim and the
 	news was about 2 years old at the time.  They were much too
 	busy surviving and avoiding 'Imperial entanglements' to check
 	up on what happened.
 
 	My current game is set in 1105, so Strephon is still alive and
 	kicking.  The players are Zhodani agents, so we will see what
 	happens.
 
 > Do you think Norris would have tried to send a mission into the
 > wilds to save his Emperor?
 
 	Well, since I don't use the virus, and I never had quite the
 	destruction that GDW did, there aren't 'WILDS' in my game.  I
 	(and my players more importantly) didn't want to play
 	Twilight 2000 in space.
 
 > Was Strephon's world destroyed?  Or did it become a pocket empire
 > (and who rules it now)?  Is Strephon still alive in your campaign
 > (via anagathics, cold sleep, hybernation, or some other hi-tech
 > development)?
 
 	I still use a picture of the Shaw of Iran as the picture of
 	Strephon.
 
 - ----
 
 Split!  Three groups, TNE, pre-tne, and general traveller ideas!
 
 - ----
 
 Does FF&S have rules for building gyrojet weapons?  How about GGG?  My
 players really like gyrojet weapons and blasters.
 
 Matt
 

- -- 
Matthew Goldman  E-mail: goldman@orac.cray.com Work: (612) 683-3061

My day today? Nothing major, just Xenon base gone, Scorpio gone, 
Tarrant dead, Tarrant alive and then I found out Blake sold us out.

------------------------------

Bundle: 611
Archive-Message-Number: 7676
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 17:14:31 EDT
From: "Mitchell Schwartz, CVC Communications  19-May-1994 1709" <schwartz@memit.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Wilds Adventures

Roger Sanger asks:
 
>Who would dare to venture out of the Regency into the wilds?

>What kinds of adventures would the wilds provide for Regency campaigns?

That depends a bit on how "airtight" you play the blockade.  If you play it as
airtight as GDW suggests (destroying every incoming ship), no one unless you don't plan to
return. Ever.  Ships are just too expensive to waste.  Including by the Regency Government!

If you play it as a reasonably tight custom blockade where your ship can be certified clean and
go on, then all sorts of speculative merchants will go to set up trade posts (outlets for medium tech goods), seek hi-tech facilities requiring few repairs, new (or fabled in old trade circulars) products.  (Examine Piers Anthony's old Polytechnic League/Nicolas van Rijn stories for a good inspriational feel).

The down and out will go looking to squat on a large "mostly free" chunk of real estate.

The missionarily inclined will go to rebuild down-trodden survivors (whether they want it or not :-).

The Gov't will sends Scouts and set up listening posts for its own knowledge and protection.
  

>What would the Regency government itself be doing about the wilds?

It would want to explore.  However, note the limitations set upon it by the expense of the 
blockade (in the next few messages, I have a discussion about the Regency Navy & RQS & such
rude things as budgets and taxes.)

						Ted


------------------------------

Bundle: 611
Archive-Message-Number: 7677
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 18:22:22 EDT
From: "Mitchell Schwartz, CVC Communications  19-May-1994 1817" <schwartz@memit.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Deep Space 2: More comments



Gerald williams says:
>Ted7@world.std.com writes:

>> There is nothing in GDW's current (or past) Traveller series technology that 
>> requires a celestial body for jump.

>Except the background, that is.  
Beg to differ with you.  Such jumps are done in several places in GDW's own 
adventures.  In fact, the J5 route across the Great Rift includes more than one
such station.  Such jumps and deep space stations are PART of the background.

How do you get to the Islands Clusters without them?  (Must be, otherwise the
Islands would have been rediscovered by the 3I LONG before the 900s.  (See 
Trillion Credit Squadron for details.)

However, note that costs of operating a series of Deep Space stations increases
geometrically!  Assuming the cost of operating 1 station is 4 times as expensive
as operating an orbital port (probably more like 8, but 4 will do).  To operate the
second one, you need to do the same operation from the first!  Setting up that
second station into the depths is 16 (or 64 starting with 8) times as expensive to 
build and operate!  Note that regardless of whether they are used for commerical
purposes, building and maintaining something by anyone (including the military or by 
Vampires) has a cost in logistics and energy spent for that purpose.  That's the
cost I'm discussing.  Governments cannot set these babies up deep into the Rift all
over the place.  This is also why the Vamps are unlikely to "flank" the Regency through
 the Rift - it requries to many resources to do.

>An example from TNE (which I don't own) is the Regency's defense
>against the virus.  I guess TNE claims they are covering every
>cubic meter in a shell 6 parsecs thick around the Regency (which
>is ludicrous--they would have to be able to INSTANTLY destroy any
>ship coming out of jump in that area and NEVER fail).  

Ah, you have hit upon another of the reasons why the Regency cannot really exist
given the Virus (and why I didn't buy TNE).  You're correct - they cannot maintain a perfect 
seal.  Actually, it's even worse
than you describe; see my upcoming discussions of the Regency's naval problems).
Nor can they defend against misjumps - given several hundred ships set to purposely
misjump, several could easily penetrate the Regency.  There should be several Trin's Veil
type occurrences if not a wholesale rampage.

However, the technologic capability has ALWAYS been available as part of the Traveller
milieu.

Steve Bonneville says:

>On Deep Space Stations:

>It's possible they don't often make much economic sense.  (Maybe I'll do
>a quick analysis sometime.)  But they might make very good military
>sense, as a refueling depot.  All you need are the hulls for holding
>the LHyd fuel, tanker/tugs to haul them around and fill them up, and
>a parsec or so to hide them in.  I don't know whether the logistical
>assets to support such a venture would be worth tying up or not.

It does, of course depend on your circumstances.  GDW's adventures include cases
of smuggler bases, ancient's bases, and naval bases (The Darrians have a major 
naval base hidden in deep space) as well as a few commercial stations.  Note: 
The question was whether it could be done.  

My comments on COST are trying to point out that it rarely is, because it is quite
expensive.  The sole reason the Aslan sought for their route over the great Rift was that
(for the clan in question), the only other routes for expansion lead to Imperial and Solomani
space.


 John Bucsek says:
 
> Now that we
>are back to somewhat realistic thrusters, I find that I need more
>fuel for my M-drives than for the J-drive.  So if you are willing
>to sacrifice maneuverablity when you exit from jump, most TNE ship
>already have the capability to do a deep space stopover without
>carrying extra fuel.
 
Even in CT & MT, any ship capable of more carrying more than 1 jump's worth of fuel can
make deep space jumps.   That's stated several places explicitly.

>I disagree that it creates a big problem with the Virus and the
>Regency blockade.  The Virus doesn't have the refueling capability
>to move a large fleet by the way of a deep space stop,

No?  Why not?  As described by GDW, various forms of the Virus are perfectly capable of
coordinating a fleet of several hundred vessels (networked over comm links) as easily as you move your hands and feet.  These include vessels of all shapes and sizes - including space tankers.  So, as Mr Virus, I pop a jump2 fleet to somewhere between two stars.  I refuel some vessels from teh tankers - including some of the tankers.  The tankers jump back to "vamp space" and refuel.  They come back to the fleet hole up point, and refuel more of teh fleet.

Some of the vamp fleet (fully loaded) leaps further into Regency space within teh dark between the stars.  Spare fuel is forwarded to only some ships.  The rest are told to wait.  Do this a fwe more times and some ships appear behind the Regency's wall and turn on their transmitters.  Uh oh!  For a more elaborate invasion, a tanker squadron makes a few leaps back and forth.  It takes time, but if the Regency doesn't ever patrol the dark between the stars, they will get their fannies wacked.


>It makes even less sense for merchantmen to use smaller J-drives
>as this increases the travel time and decreases the profit.
Unless I had something particularly valuable or time critical someone was paying extra for.


>One last point, In Arrival Vengence the ship rendevous with a deep
>space comet for refueling on the way back to the regency.  
>But the location and orbit of the
>comet was a state secret for such an emergency.
Uh, stored in a what? Computer memory or three?  In imperial military computers (sure in security sites, but networked).  Mr. Virus can find these too :-)

David Johnson says:

>I've always considered that jump calculations use gravity wells as `targets'.

That's not what various elements of the background material describe, though
I will grant they have some effect - try to jump too close to a grav well and you 
don't come out.  Jump drive is described as going from point A to point B through a medium (jumpspace) other than our space time continuum where the travel time is much shorter.  
There's nothing in the mechanics that gives you a bonus or minus 
for trying to get closer or further  from a grav well beyond.  I have to presume it doesn't
matter then.  If anything, since if you flub a navigation skill roll (In TNE), meaning you used 
less skill than required for success, you come out further away, I presume its easier to 
jump further from a star than close to the 100 diam limit.
  
All the targeting information for Navigation is based on your data bank.  Up to date
nav data includes information about the orbits and  locations of bodies in the star system. 
I'd imagine that the first fella jumping into s star system comes in well away from the star 
and spends a while observing, so that the next fella will know where is permissable and 
not permissable to jump in.


But I'll grant that for t

>My fleet can probably all emerge in orbit
>about a system's major gas giant but it will have to maneuver afterwards
>to regain its formation.
If your fleet tries jumping into orbit around system X's gas giant, odds are good
they ain't coming out. :-)
The problem is more likely one scale.  Consider interstellar distances.  Now, let's add extremely small perturbations in the EXACT attitude of your ship as it enters and travels through 
jumpspace.  Things like the speed able spacer Jock Strapp is jogging at while exercising in the ship's corridors, or the effect on the drive mount of engineer Kappappappappadan's boom box while he play Beethoven's 5th.  These have a small effect - enough to move the ship at most a couple hundred klicks - like the space generally occupied by a fleet while maneuvering!  Since these are not all known in advance (some haven't occurred; what if  engineer K switches to the
Beatles instead (ah, those longhaired Solomani...), they cannot be completely compensated for.  Of course your fleet disperses a bit during jump - it's safer than appearing interspersed or appearing close enough to risk collision in those first moments. 

>Jumps to deep space are difficult because there is no gravity well to serve
>as a target. 
But you don't target a gravity well!  Traveller does not include gravity detectors, and certainly not
ones that work at interstellar distances.  However, you are on to something...

> Even if I stage some sort of refueling post it will be
>difficult to get close - the lack of any other significant gravity wells
>in the vicinity helps but I'm still targeting something *much* less
>massive than a star, gas giant or planet.  

I agree with the effect, but not the reasons,  Remember, gravity wells do
not affect the Navigation plot!  Certainly, a station of any size (smaller than those
purported to house 1 million or more, but something that size is prohibitively expensive for
a deep space station) will not produce enough of a gravity well to be noticed.
However, as I said before, due to the need to know exactly where gravity well generators are
(stars, planets, planetoids, etc), known systems are well mapped.  You can target to the
nth degree and appear (with luck) say anywhere within a 10,000 km bubble without much
effort because you have a vast body of data available to you, prompting you to accuracy.

In a jump to a deep space point, there are few such references.  So, instead of accuracy to
the .000001th degree, you may only be accurate to the .001th degree.  The coordinates are just
not that carefully defined in the navigation data until several hundred jumps have been made, the general jumpspace perturbations along the route have been documented, and any deep space bodies have been located and recorded.

To recap:

It can be done.  It is part of the canon that it has been done.  It will be done if the costs justifies it, but that probably won't be very often.

					Ted7

------------------------------

Bundle: 611
Archive-Message-Number: 7678
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 17:24:04 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: Imperial Armed Forces, 5FW

Ooh boy, a real can of worms here.

David Johnson <djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov> writes:

>I agree.  Someone *please* dig out those *5FW* counters!

Hah!  Sure -- it's the best evidence we've got for the Imperial Army 
structure questions.  (It's a different thread, but you did ask....)  :)

The counters in 5FW represent the Imperial forces that are space-mobile; 
in other words, planetary army formations are only represented where 
they have been "imperialized" and released to Imperial deployment.  
(Someone else can look at planets, if they want!)  What does the 
interstellar government have in the primary theater of operations?

* Huscarles: 
     One elite regiment, tech-15, heavy lift infantry, deployed into 
     its' six battalions.  (4518th "Duke Regina's Own".)  Details of 
     composition are in _Spinward Marches Campaign_.  Originally 
     Imperial Marines.
             
* Marines: 
     Seven regiments, two of them elite, all tech-15.  
     
No other large forces loyal directly to the Imperium are elites.

* Regular Army:
     Eight field armies, six corps, eight divisions, four brigades, four
     regiments.  75% tech-15, 25% tech-14.  Regiments are mainly drop 
     troops.  Brigades are all lift infantry.
     
* Colonial Forces:
     RESERVES: Three field armies, six corps, five brigades, one 
        regiment.  TL 10 to 15, average 12 to 13. Larger formations tend 
        to better equipped.  The regiment is a tech-15 heavy lift 
        infantry unit, however!
     PLANETARY:  Two field armies, nine corps, two divisions, one 
        brigade, one battalion.  TL 8 to 13, average 10 to 11.   The 
        tech-8 unit is the Esalin Mechanized Infantry Division.  
        (Remember the "UN peacekeepers"?)  Both armies are from Porozlo 
        -- the only world represented twice!  Assumed to be 
        "imperialized" planetary forces since all here have planets 
        for identifiers.
    Again, all brigades are lift infantry.
    
* Mercenaries:  Yes, the Imperium has this nasty little habit....
     One division, one brigade, one regiment, seven battalions.
     TL 12 to 16, average 14.  Five of the battalions are elites,
     including the tech-16 unit. 

The marines are in first, easy to move to trouble spots, and are better
equipped and have higher morale, but most of the force is in the Army.
(Also note, because of this, the marines might get used more in 
"peacetime".  Remember too, the technological background of the Marches 
when considering the state of equipment in the regular and reserve 
forces.)

>An Imperial Army (or Marine) unit should contain land, water, air and
>orbital elements capable of dealing with combat situations in any 
>planetary environment.

Yes -- at the corps or army level.  But for best effectiveness, expect 
to see the battalions to be a bit more specialized in their training.  
Think about what such a capability would require.

Peter H. Brenton <pete@biochem.uchicago.edu> writes:

>Ok, Now my questions.  How many combat battalions in an Imp. Marine
>Division?  How many companies per battalion?  Platoons per company?
>Troops per platoon?  Are companies combined arms? or are platoons?
>Is artillery organic to the Battalion? or the company?

Usually deployed as regiments.  When the 4518th was given to Baron 
Regina, it was composed of two battalions of lift infantry, one of lift 
cavalry, and one of jump troops.  It probably still follows Marine 
doctrine.  There, some artillery is attached to the infantry/drop 
troops, some to regimental.  HQ also gets a fighter squadron and an 
_ortillery_ (planetary bombardment) squadron.  Organization seems
to follow the modern Western model closely.

>Space transport should be modular.  I envision a "Rodger Young" class
>Company Assault Transport which would be deployable alone, in pairs,
>or in hordes as a division.

Makes sense.  The _Kinunir_ is the closest thing that I can think of 
that's been seen, but it's just not adequate.


   Steve Bonneville
   <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>
   

------------------------------

Bundle: 611
Archive-Message-Number: 7679
Subject: Admin Q&A, ftp.engrg.uwo.ca status
Reply-To: jamesp@sp-eug.com (James T Perkins)
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 15:27:26 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@sp-eug.com>


Q: Is sunbane (ftp.engrg.uwo.ca) not responding to ftp from the Internet?
A: Yes, it's down.

Q: Is the ftp site admin aware of the problem?
A: Yes, Dan (sunbane admin) is aware of it.

Q: Is Dan working on it?
A: No, Dan has other important work to do (like, one of the disks has a
   bad sector and is causing occasional server crashes).

Q: Should I keep trying each day until it works?
A: Yes, it will be fixed eventually. Keep trying. Patience is a virtue.

Q: Have there been some small hiccups with TML delivery in the last
   week?
A: yes, a raft of empty messages floated by at one point.

Q: What do I do if my submission to traveller@engrg.uwo.ca returns a
   wierd reponse?
A: Wait, and if doesn't appear in the next TML delivery, resend it.

Q: Is the TML and sunbane supported by the good graces of companies and
   in the administrator's spare time?
A: Yes it is, we just do the best we can with what what time and
   resources we can beg, borrow, steal from those who employ us.

Q: Do we need to kiss up to the admins?
A: No, no need to kiss up.  Instead, just send money to:


					  XX
			  XX                X
			  XX     XXXXX       X
					     X
			  XX     XXXXX       X
			  XX                X
					  XX

James

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 22 May 94 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #612: Msgs 7680-7699 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun May 22 22:00:03 EDT 1994
Reply-To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 May 94 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #612: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 612  7680 19-May-1994 "Mitchell Schwa  The Problem of the Regency Blockade << 
 612  7681 19-May-1994 David Johnson    TNE: Regency Naval Organization << Gent
 612  7682 19-May-1994 KenHagler@aol.c  High Guard ship writeup << Recently the
 612  7683 19-May-1994 "Tariq M. Rashi  Re:Would be Earth Colonies Contributor 
 612  7687 20-May-1994 Robert Flammang  Green Virus and Speaker for the Dead <<
 612  7688 20-May-1994 Steven M Bonnev  IA; Multiworld Gov'ts << One thing I ne
 612  7689 20-May-1994 Roger Myhre      Gvurrdon                  << At last I 
 612  7692 20-May-1994 20-May-1994 152  Re: Andy Lilly's Green Virus << Andy Li
 612  7693 20-May-1994 20-May-1994 161  More on Deep Space << David Johnson sez
 612  7694 20-May-1994 20-May-1994 162  Why the Constant Roiling Trav vs TNE <<
 612  7695 20-May-1994 PSUAlum@aol.com  CT/MT/TNE Misc << RJR96326@vax1.utulsa.
 612  7696 20-May-1994 PSUAlum@aol.com  ct/mt/tne regency background << RQS
 612  7697 20-May-1994 gerald.s.willia  Re: Deep Space Jumps (not again!) << So
 612  7698 20-May-1994 David Johnson    TNE: Regency Naval Forces << Gentlesoph
 612  7699 20-May-1994 David Johnson    TNE: Regency Border Confusion << Gentle

------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7680
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 19:01:04 EDT
From: "Mitchell Schwartz, CVC Communications  19-May-1994 1855" <schwartz@memit.enet.dec.com>
Subject: The Problem of the Regency Blockade

Since it has been posed as a question, just how does one blockade
against the Virus?  What kind of fleet do you build?  Without getting
into the heavy specifics of weapons (I'll leave that to those more
talented, interested and experienced in ship design),  I'll discuss the
military issues faced by such a defensive blockade and the most economic
means of resolving such issues.

First, let's consider the problems imposed by Vampire ships:

1. Scope of task: You need to produce a complete blockade in systems at 
   least six parsecs deep all along the perimeter.  Based on the map in TNE,
   this is a line some 62 parsecs long in 1200.  Sorry that I don't have a 
   Deneb map, but assuming that the density of systems is the same as the
   Spinward Marches, that's some 70 systems total that the Regency needs to
   garrison.  This does not include systems that the Zhodani watch in    Chronor
   and Jewell.  Nor does it include anything on the Spinward edge of the 
   Regency - as if the Regency would not fear infection from any Virus ships
   having crept across the J5 route from Aslani space or through Zhodani 
   space having made the trip around the Windhorn.  Nor does it include
   naval forces arrayed against piracy or other external threats - like the
   Aslan ihatei from the Trojan Reach or the Zhodani Consulate.  

   Nor does it include guarding the dark between the stars.  Vessels must
   patrol these places, but bases in all the empty hexes is simply too 
   expensive.  
   
   Why must you guard 6 parsecs in depth?  To stop penetration by a J6       vessel.  Why must you patrol the empty parsecs?  Its too easy for a 
   squadron of vessels to piggyback fuel to deep space jumps and pierce
   the blockade. 

   The final threat, of course, cannot be effectievly guarded against:
   misjump.  Given a few hundred ships attenpting to misjump, a few will 
   pop in the middle of the Regency.  You know, those "safe" areas without
   excessive impediment to travel so life can pretend its still the 3rd
   Imperium.

   All it takes is one to get through and plant its eggs.

   Note: if you examine the maps in Survival Margin, the safe area of the
   Regency was a much smaller area that did not include the Deneb Sector! If 
   that map was accurate (why else would GDW print it? :-), the Regency        pulled out of areas too large for it to defend and left them to the         tender mercies of the Virus!  That must have been delightful PR for
   Norris's administration!)
   
2. Location: Given the enormity of space, with the only limit on entry into 
   a system being the 100-diameter limit, there is an awful lot of space 
   in any star system that a Vampire can appear in.  I'm not that up on the
   technical end of MT, but from FF&S, you will need a fair number of

3. Identification:  Vampire ships can be of any class, from a 100-ton
   Scout vessel to a 1,000,000-ton battle rider (complete with Batron
   attached!).  They do not appear or act different than a human-run 
   ship.  Since TL8 computers can do decent voice synthesis, I'll
   assume higher TLs have no such problems.  So, how do you tell a
   Vampire (or worse yet in the beginning a mere Virus carrier) from
   an uninfected ship?  Every ship entering a system must be interrogated,  
   investigated, and determined if it is safe or not - and quickly.
   (in fact TNE says "the first thing a ship sees when it comes out of jump
   space in Regency space is a naval vessel").

4. Defense: Full defense is just about impossible.  Consider - at least 
   in the beginning of the "infection" period when the number of Vampires is
   thickest and defenses against infection are nil, a Vampire simply needs     to enter the system and broadcast (download) eggs to any number of
   computer-linked communications systems.  A 1000AU radio is the most 
   dangerous weapon aboard a Vampire - it can start broadcasting as soon
   as it arrives in system to any number of accidental listeners!     
   Certainly, it can begin broadcasting before it can be detected.

   (Ah, three cheers for Imperial standardization.  Mr Virus can easily
   enough write and quickly down load small programs to locate one of
   the few popular imperial comm systems, issue the (well-known) 
   commands to have the comm system point an ear up to the sky, and
   let out a "ready" peep.  While the inspector ships are still closing in 
   on the new ship, it is already down-loading itself to awaiting, open
   systems on the planet.)

   Defense must be prepared to destroy ANY and every ship that enters the
   system.  And any ship that may be in the system before it can leave in
   the event of infection.

Now, for the defenders, there are a few advantages:

1.  Most infected vessels are not military; they should be defeatable by
    light military forces.

2.  The effect of Viral infection is not immediate.  by the late 1130s, the
    Regency scientists should have figured out a bit about how the Virus
    works - enough to have figured out how to detect it dormant in a 
    computer system.  Shutting down the system and removing Mr. Virus at 
    that point may be annoying and inconvenient, but it will beat the hell 
    out of genocide and mass destruction!

3.  After the first ten years or so, the threat should thin out enormously
    as Vampires wear out and become non-functional.



Next, How do you defend a planetary system?


  					Ted7

------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7681
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 18:03:39 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE: Regency Naval Organization

Gentlesophonts:

Given the Regency fleets I identified in msg 605/7586 let's look at how
these naval forces might be organized in TNE.

I propose, rather than organization based upon the sectors of the Imperial
era, that the Regency Navy will be organized along the `fronts' of the
Regency: Zhodani, Vargr, Virus and Aslan *ihatei*.  This leads to the
following fleet organization (I'm going to adopt Steve Charlton's
terminology):

The Spinward Fleet (4 groups, 250 ships)
212th Group (Jewell)             213th Group (Regina)
193rd Group (Vilis)              18th Group (Lanth)

The Coreward Fleet (6 groups, 375 ships)
214th Group (Aramis)             23rd Group (Rhylanor)
194th Group (Pretoria)           211th Group (Lamas)
195th Group (Sabine)             257th Group (Inar)

The Rimward Fleet (6 groups, 375 ships)
43rd Group (Lunion)              208th Group (Five Sisters)
100th Group (Glisten)            201st Group (Pax Rulin)
202nd Group (Gazulin)            203rd Group (Sindal)

The 1st Quarantine Fleet (6 groups, 375 ships)
151st Froup (Antra)              61st Group (Million)
125th Group (Dunmag)             88th Group (Atsah)
154th Group (Usani)              183rd Group (Geniishir)

The 2nd Quarantine Fleet (6 groups, 375 ships)
260th Group (Zeng)               55th Group (Kamlar)
184th Group (Vast Heavens)       204th Group (Tobia)
74th Group (Macon)               128th Group (Usher)

The Regent's Fleet (6 groups, 375 ships)
73rd Group (Mora)                207th Group (Trin's Veil)
196th Group (Star Lane)          258th Group (Vincennes)
193rd Group (Gulf)               19th Group (Vestus)

Subsector names merely reflect the Imperial era origins of the groups
and may or may not correspond to New Era designations.  (For example,
one might expect the 203rd Group to now patrol Regency worlds in District
268.)

Does anyone have any idea what the percentage breakdown might be for
battle, cruiser and assault (carrier) squadrons within a `typical' group?

In the above organization one might expect the Spinward, Rimward and
Regent's Fleets to have a higher percentage of BatRons while the Coreward
and Quarantine Fleets would have more CruRons.  AssRons would probably
be concentrated in the Regent's Fleet.

Comments, critiques, suggestions and questions are welcomed and encouraged.

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Hoouston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7682
From: KenHagler@aol.com
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 19:40:05 EDT
Subject: High Guard ship writeup

Recently there's been much talk about CT/MT material (or lack thereof) on 
the TML. So, I decided to send off this ship from Steve's TCS game:

    The _Mikhail Gorbachev_ class Battlecruiser
    
BC-1 Mikhail Gorbachev BC-P6357F3-490100-60E09-0 MCr46,662.7 50,000 tons
batteries bearing       8  8 1 6  Crew=395.
batteries         A  A 1 8  TL=12.
Low=137. Cargo=644. Fuel=18,500. EP=3500. Agility=5. Marines=150

Notes: All lasers are pulse lasers. Ship has frozen watch, fuel scoops, 
and purification plant.

This is the original design of the _Gorbachev_ class. 24 of these ships 
were built by the Naval Forces of Neubayern, all named for political 
leaders of twentieth-century Earth. This version of the class saw action 
against Amondiage and Sansterre during the Old Islands War, and against 
New Colchis during the Topas War. Following the Topas War, Alliance 
Supreme Commander Sir Isaac Connor described the class as being the 
"workhorse of the Alliance Fleet."

Following the war of 5627, the ships of the class underwent the Series A 
upgrade, which equipped the key ships of the NFN with Alliance technology.

BC-1 Series A BC-P6357H3-490300-(ND)000A-0 MCr42,370.9 50,000 tons
batteries bearing    8   12    4 Crew=370.
batteries      A   13    5 TL=12(14).
Low=510. Cargo=699. Fuel=18,500. EP=3500. Agility=5. Marines=650.

Notes: All lasers are beam lasers. Ship has frozen watch, scoops, plant. 
The refit cost MCr1,351.24 per ship, and took 14 weeks.

The Series A _Gorbachev_ was one of the first warships to incorporate the 
heavy laser technology developed by Sansterre. The letter-code bay 
weapons and highly efficient spinal mounts made possible by this 
improvement in laser technology gave Alliance ships a powerful punch at 
close range.

These refitted ships were also among the first to carry TL14 letter-code 
missile bays. The combination of a letter-code bay and nuclear missiles 
gave the _Gorbachev_, and latter Alliance ships, the ability to crack 
even the heaviest armour.

The Series A version of this battlecruiser saw action in the Serendip 
War. The entire class participated in the Second Battle of Neubayern, 
when the Serendip Belt tried to depopulate Neubayern, and five of them 
were lost or damaged beyond repair.

The surviving 19 ships were among those which fled to Home and Sansterre 
during the Imperial occupation, where they underwent the Series B refit 
which incorporated the tremendous advances the Alliance had made in 
weapons and propulsion.

This covers the "history" of the _Gorbachev_ class. I've got plans to 
write up the "current" status of the class (along with the Series B 
version) in the world of the Islands Cluster, but make no promises as to 
when this will be...

I'll post other NFN designs from the Alliance in days to come, unless of 
course you don't want me to. :-)

                        Kenneth G. Hagler
 _________________________________________________________________
|            kenhagler@aol.com           |  My insurance company  |
|             (619) 251-0054             |    is Beretta U.S.A.   |
|   PGP 2.3 key available on request     |                        |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   ...study of the military arts will make one who is naturally  |
|   clever more so and one who is born somewhat dull rather less  |
|   so.     --Daidoji Yuzan Shigesuke, _Budo Shoshinshu_          |
|_________________________________________________________________|


------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7683
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 20:03:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Subject: Re:Would be Earth Colonies Contributor

Fellow citizens of the Unified Sphere

I have been following the earth colonies discussion.  I think its a great 
idea but you dont need me to tell you so.  I once ran a camp with 
quasi traveller rules (before I had ever seen traveller...I used 
champions hybrid rules) based upon an extensive system of earth colonized 
worlds (100+).  I just joined TML a couple o weeks ago and have some 
questions regarding the Earth Colonies.

Questions-What is the status(if any) of Extraterrestrial Humans or non 
Human sentients?

Could someone post a five point (or more at one line per point) synopsis 
of the Earth Colonies background.  I mean fundamental things.  I can get 
details (historical, political,etc) from the discussions and submissions. 

I would love to join this discussion.  Even if youre only using Terrans, 
there is enough variety in Terran culture to more than satisfy a 
backgrounds need for contrast, depth, and variety.

Tariq

"Hey Soldier do you know who the CO is?......"

"Aint you!?"



------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7684

------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7685

------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7686

------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7687
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 10:11:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Flammang <FLAMMANG@vms.cis.pitt.edu>
Subject: Green Virus and Speaker for the Dead

RE: Green Virus.

	Has anyone read Orson Scott Card's novels, "Speaker for the Dead" and
"Xenocide" ?   Card writes about a disease (the Descolada) that causes
massive mutations in all the life forms it infects.

************************SPOILER ALERT************************

	IF YOU HAVE NOT READ THESE NOVELS, THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE WILL
SPOIL SOME SURPRISE PLOT TWISTS.

	The Descolada massively alters the ecosystem of any world it may
happen to be deposited on, making the world more easily exploitable for
the disease's creators. You can think of it as a slow and painfull
biological version of the "Genesis Device" from "Star Trek II, Wrath of
Khan". As is the case with ST2's Genesis, the Descolada is also a powerful
weapon.
	The Descolada makes for a terrifying enemy, but it is not
magical, and it can be fought. It can also destroy entire civilizations
(and species) if it is not fought successfully. It can do much of what
the virus is supposed to do, and Card has already written two novels on
it, working out many of its implications. This might be useful to
someone trying to create Wilds in his Third Imperium campaign.

***********************END OF SPOILER****************************


	Just a thought. I'm a CT referee myself.

					-Rob


------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7688
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 09:34:21 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: IA; Multiworld Gov'ts


One thing I neglected to make clear in my posting about Imperial
Army/Marines dispositions is that the planetary forces which are
_not_ "imperialized" are probably greater in number than the
IA forces.

 ---

TCS shipyard capacity was 0.001 * population, in d-tons, roughly.

 ---

Cynthia Higginbotham writes:

> Compared to the Navies of 
>independent single worlds, the Imperium has an incredibly low (factor
>of 100 or more) naval strength in proportion to its population (based
>on my experience playing TCS).  

Agreed.  The Sword World fleets (two of which were in _5FW_) seemed
similarly small, but I forget the figures offhand.

About the multi-world governments in the old Imperium: they weren't
_quite_ illegal.  Worlds were allowed to sponsor colonies on nearby
worlds, to get them going.  A small amount of internal conflict was
allowed, but the second things looked like they might get out of 
hand, the Navy and Marines were called in.  Some cultural regions
had close pre-Imperial ties, but were usually forced to officially
act through the Imperial bureaucracy at the multi-world level.  It's
possible that some exceptions were allowed where it served the 
government's interests.  For instance, the Vegans were given that
huge autonomous region near Sol to counterbalance the Solomani
Confederation.  They were even allowed to maintain an internal 
navy under their control at TL14+, many ships of which were retired
second-rate Imperial vessels, which admittedly often had the most
powerful weapons downgraded.  So it's possible the Imperium did 
this very occasionally on a smaller scale -- but they kept a real
close watch on them.  They probably didn't have too much trouble.

After all, the Imperium was pretty good at object lessons.  What
they did to Ilelish during the early years is an example.  I'm
sure that when the Solomani lost Earth, quite a few people breathed
a sigh of relief that the Imperium didn't dare to put the Terran
tropical regions to the nuclear sword, even after an evac.

 ---

Yeah, I killed the Emperor in one pre-MT campaign, too.  A friend
of mine had just gotten the GDW Zhodani, and I read it cover to
cover and was inspired.  This was the high-power campaign with a
PC playing the "Duke of Egyrn", so I appointed him special ambassador
to Zhodane with instructions to discuss the "Pa'an Question" which
was unresolved after the 5FW.  (He started out as an IISS Imperial
Warrant psionic agent, and worked his way up the noble ladder over   
the course of the campaign, so he was a vehemently anti-Zho psi,
which threw another wrench into the works.)

Essentially, over the course of negotiations, he and his retinue
got to know the Zhodani, and slowly began to "go native".  Then
the news of Strephon's assassination reached Zhodane.  When it
became clear that the Zhodani were more interested in the Core
Expedition (which he had known nothing about, of course) than
the attack on the Marches he expected, he became very confused. 

A replacement arrived to discuss the new situation, and he was   
recalled.  The Imperium collapsed into a Second Civil War, the
Marches dominated by a "Regina Free State" around Norris.  So 
he ended up working to stabilize the area behind the claw....
As I recall, Strephon was killed circa 1117 or 1118, so the
Zhodani found out circa 1118-1120.  It's been a while.

The bizarre thing is, I didn't really _plan_ any of these new
developments in advance, they just sort of *happened* as I went
along, because they seemed to fit the plot so well.

I knew the scenario had worked because afterward, the PC playing
the Duke came up to me and said, "God, Steve, you've not only got 
me *liking* the Zhodani, I might want to ally with them!  The Zho 
are either *incredible* propogandists, or I've lost my mind!" :)
Best campaign I ever ran.  High power campaigns can be fun!

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>



------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7689
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 16:47:36 +0200
From: Roger Myhre <myhre@oslonett.no>
Subject: Gvurrdon                 

At last I managed to get trhough to Sunbane. I have put up the following
files. And I have also skaed dan to put them into a seperate directory
for HIWG docs. I'll be uploading HIWG docs when I get a response from
him. The reason for the seperate directory is that all the files are
numbered. Each time I upload HIWG docs I'll send a updated filelist that
contains the number and title to all the HIWG docs uploaded from me.

Files uploaded:

File    Title
- -------------------------------------------------------
6F01    Gvurrdon sector Write-Up
6F02    Kforuzeng, the return of the space wolfs.
6F03    Commonality of Kedzudh, The warmongering state.
6F04    Thirz Empire, the "client state" to Zhodani
6F05    Gvurrdon sector Library data
6F06    Rukh, a short overview of this Zhodani friendly state.
6F07    Society of Equals, or George Orwell 5600AD.
6F08    Oruelaen, psionic forces of Thirz Empire
6F09    Contact: Tirrils
6F0B    Groups in Gvurrdon Sector per 1200
6F0C    Aliens of Gvurrdon Sector
6F0D    Travelling in Gvurrdon Sector
6F0E    Gvurrdon Sector TNE update
0142.14 Building the perfect Dog
0142.16 Have Starship--Will Travel

I intended to put these files into a zip archive, but it seems
local server doesn't handle that too well. Either way during transfer
I get problems and the file is skipped.

For comments, ideas, and other things please E-mail me at:
myhre@oslonett.no, or at Chaos Master Inc BBS on (+47) 22 38 29 37;
Address: StarWolf Da_Corsair

Yours for Traveller,

Roger "StarWolf" Myhre
           

------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7690

------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7691

------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7692
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 15:29:21 EDT
From: 20-May-1994 1527 <mschwartz@asabet.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Re: Andy Lilly's Green Virus

Andy Lilly discusses using a Green Virus that assaults plants or living
creatures rather thn GDW's computer Virus.

That's fine if:

o  You are willing to re-write ALL support items from GDW or any other
   source before you can use them.

o  You are willing to write your own version of the imperial downfall.
   Let me suggest that it would manifest itself in vastly different ways
   from GDW's official universe.  The technologic balance in a TNE-GV
   will be vastly different from GDW's.

If you are willing to be on your own, go to it.

I believe GDW made a large error when they did not (as they promised they
would in Challenge) separate TNE from the game mechanics as they did in Classic 
Traveller.

						Ted


Maj Strasser (of the 3rd Imperium): "...As you may have learned, here on 
       Aubaine, human life is cheap.  There an is another alternative:
       Return to gaming in the Traveller Imperium."
Elsa: "Return to gaming in the Traveller Imperium?!"
Strasser: "I give you my company's complete guaranteeof continuity."
Elsa: "You may be aware of what GDW's guarantees have been worth in the past!"

------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7693
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 16:21:31 EDT
From: 20-May-1994 1616 <mschwartz@asabet.enet.dec.com>
Subject: More on Deep Space

David Johnson sez:

>Okay, I've got some sort of 'jump space gravity well detector'

Not if you are in GDW's universe.  That's documented several times.


>(Didn't the "World Builder's Handbook" say I could `scan' systems at
>instellar distances?

Not at TL 15 (or 18 for that matter) to detect more than the presence of
the star.  It has nothing to do with TL and everything to do with signal
differentiation.  At those distances, all you'd receive is light sent from a 
point source.  All signals from that system would appear as the same signal.


>If this is so, how do I explore new territory?

That's easy:  pick coordinates well beyond the 100 diam limit of the star (1000
is a good choice).  Odds are very good that you won't bump into the gravity
well of a planet.  Head slowly toward (take a month or two) the star and 
examine it to determine the system's ecliptic plane.  Then examine the 
ecliptic plane for planets. As you drift in, you will get more data and figure
out the orbits of the planets.

That's part of what the ISS used to do.  No one said all Scout Service work
was exciting.

Next time, someone can use your data to determine where in orbit the planets
will be, and where is a safe jump point.

Hey! I just got an idea for system defense!  Build LARGE artificial grav
generators.  Something Bship sized should be able to generate a large moon-sized
G well.  In war, you can move a few around your system around the 100 diam 
limit of your mainworld and disrupt those coming in - except your folks who 
you can tell where these items and their masses are placed.




------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7694
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 16:34:50 EDT
From: 20-May-1994 1620 <mschwartz@asabet.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Why the Constant Roiling Trav vs TNE

Jeff Davis just asked again.

It seems that every time someone asks "I just went to the store and there's
this new Traveller:TNE - what is it and why is it different?" the same 
arguments and opinions appear and we get vent and counter-vent of rabid
opinions about it.

I vented once, and only once.  I feel no need to do so again.

Someone give Jeff Davis Loren's address or GDW_Support's address and let
him ask there and save us the venting.

My apologies to Jeff Davis who is probably quite nice and is quite welcome
here.  He just asked a decent question just as the round of roiling was 
quieting down.

Unfortunately, this question will continue to be asked - and answered with
equal vehemence on both sides.

And for the record, I did not buy and will not buy TNE because I don't like
the changes made to the setting. I believe the leap to TNE was made because
GDW had two purposes:  1. They wanted to upgrade the rule set to their set of
House Rules (used with TW:2000, cadillacs & dinos, & Dark Conspiracy)
2.  They wrote themselves into a corner with the Rebellion and wanted a fresh
start.  Some folks like it, and others do not.

Ted

------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7695
From: PSUAlum@aol.com
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 17:41:17 EDT
Subject: CT/MT/TNE Misc

RJR96326@vax1.utulsa.edu (J Roberson) responded:
>> Islam       == people who have embraced TNE?
>Depending on your POV, it might be more applicable to equate the
>Mromons with TNE people, making the TNE rules the Book of Mormon.

Not meaning any disrespect but would that make them Latter Day
Travellers?  BTW has anyone else noticed the recent news release from
Iran.  Their High Ayatollah has decreed that it is sacrilege for muslims
to watch TV via sattelite.


SPLITTING GROUP

I am not in favor of splitting the group.  I have CT, Mt. & TNE and have
played all incarnations starting w. CT in the eqarly '80s.  I enjoy
reading the thought's others have regarding all types of Traveller as
well as both official and individual campaigns.  The use of identifying
headers seems a brilliant idea.  If you don't play the game, ignore the
message and why flame the other system when the bandwidth could be
better used to crow about the system you're fond of using.


DEEP SPACE STATIONS: (in a Steve Urquel voice) "Did I do that?"  At
least I think I mentioned something about them that started this round
of discussion.  IMHO DSS's can make economic sense given the right set
of circumstances (distances of systems and the political/economic
situation of those systems) as well as military sense.

I can not remember (in CT, MT, or TNE) anything from GDW indicating the
mechanics of how a ship navigates (astrogates for us Latter Day
Travellers) through jump space.  I can think of three methods:

1) A vector (distance & direction) is always directly related to
jumpspace navigation; if I wish to jump two parsecs 270 degrees from my
current forward position the parameters necessary to achieve that can be
directly calculated.

2) Jumps are made toward gravity sinks.  When I start to enter jump
space the ship is attracted to gravity nodes - the navigator allocates
the proper amount of enery to drop out of jumpspace outside 100
diameters to avoid merging with heavenly bodies.  Or as Han Solo put it,
"It's no mean trick.  Be nice if we rushed it and passed right through a
star or some other friendly spatial phenom like a black hole.  That
would end our trip real quick."

3) Jumps might be calculated toward objects emitting sufficient
radiation (for a sufficiently long enough time - at least a dozen years
or more) to be detected by starship sensors and used to lock in a
course.  Obviously a DSS would not emit enough radiation nor would it be
in existence for a long enough period of time if it did.

Looking at the "official" evidence either methods 2 or 3 seem to be the
correct method, probably 2 since gravitational fields are specified as
being involved in the procedure (one must be at a sufficient distance to
avoid having gravity interfere with the jumpdrive.

As was pointed out during the 5FW neither side made use of DSS's and
while the 3I & Zhos may be a lot of things neither group would be likely
to pass up any advantage, no matter how risky.


PBJuzyk                             | 'Most plans don't even survive
Reading, PA                         |  contact with Reality'
Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8) |   -Hammer Lanthrop, *Smash & Grab*


------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7696
From: PSUAlum@aol.com
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 17:41:37 EDT
Subject: ct/mt/tne regency background

RQS

Thank you David Johnson for the kind comments.  You are quite correct
regarding dispatching jump drones.  Initially the procedure was to await
the outcome of hostile actions before launching drones but after the
Rape of Trin RQS Expedition Leader David Johnson brought this matter to
the attention of the RQS command which swiftly altered the procedures to
launch drones if a ship enters within 100 diameters of a fuel source
without acknowledging commo contact or as soon as hostile actions break
out.  Possibly this minor procedural fauz pas is responsible for the
Virus penetration to Trin but if so it has never been made known to the
public.


bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville) points out
correctly that the RQS also patrols the Zho & other spinward borders.
This is true but the RQS only maintains light assets (mostly inspection
launches) for inspections while the Navy maintains a strong presence in
these areas.  Naval ships are called upon to enforce the Quarantine
procedures should firepower be required.


L'oeul d'Dieu/Spinward Marches (3010 B98A510-B)
  While not a major world this system became the Patrol's base of ops in
275-1120 and thereby deserves some attention.  When Norris established
the Quarantine (312-1130) the Patrol was combined with part of the
Regency Interstellar Scout Service (Exploration and External Mapping
branches) to form the Regency Quarantine Service (RQS).  The base then
became an important asset of the RQS.


PBJuzyk                             | 'Most plans don't even survive
Reading, PA                         |  contact with Reality'
Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8) |   -Hammer Lanthrop, *Smash & Grab*


------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7697
From: gsw@aloft.att.com (gerald.s.williams)
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 09:46:35 EDT
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps (not again!)

Sorry for all of the bandwidth this is costing:

I think we're all on similar wavelengths regarding deep-space jumps,
although we all have taken different approaches to the seemingly
conflicting data about them.

I think we're agreed on the following "facts":

o Deep-Space Jumps ARE allowed
o Deep-Space refueling stations DO exist
o Deep-Space refueling stations ARE NOT extremely common
o Large distances (eg: Great Rift) DO present an obstacle to travel
o Blockades (eg: Regency) ARE possible
o Stellar and planetary bodies DO affect jump (eg: 100 diameter limit)

If anyone else has any facts to add, please do.  But take note, I
have avoided using obscure references as well as many not-so-obscure
rules references so that I can generalize.

To me, a natural conclusion from all of these facts is that jumps to
deep space are somehow very difficult and/or risky.  This is not the
only conclusion at which you could arrive, but it makes sense to me.

Another suggestion has been that it is simply too expensive to use
multiple jumps (for traders) or to set up deep-space refueling
stations (for the military).  I don't think this reconciles all of
the facts, for reasons I've already stated.

====================

I am now done talking about the effects of the background, game
mechanics, etc.  The rest of this is merely a suggestion, which
doesn't come from the rule book, so don't start quoting me page
numbers from books I probably don't have. :-)  I'd better give
that a few more smileys: :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

====================

My interpretation has been that gravity plays an integral part in
jumps, such that it is difficult to jump to interstellar space.
I am now inclined to revise this interpretation so that gravity
wells are REQUIRED as destinations of any jump.

There is plenty of interstellar dark matter, so deep-space jumps
would still be possible, although the difficulty of finding such
matter may change throughout the galaxy (eg: there might be less
in the Great Rift, and the Regency might have cleared it out at
the border).  Also, interpretations of how much matter is needed
may vary (eg: do you need something the size of a comet? will a
dust cloud do?).  These two things would affect whether deep-space
jump points are common or are well-guarded secrets at different
places in the galaxy.

This also helps me justify the way mis-jumps work.  I avoided
mentioning this earlier, since it opens up a whole new can of
worms (intentional mis-jumps: JUST SAY NO! :-) :-) :-).

====================

    ,-----------------.
    |Gerald S Williams|
    |gsw@aloft.att.com|
    `-----------------'

      _  |     ____/    _  |
     /   /    /        /   /
    /   /  ____ |     ____/
   /   /        /    /
______/  ______/  __/

 AT&T DSP tools development


------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7698
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 18:00:06 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE: Regency Naval Forces

Gentlesophonts:

Ed "Caffine Achiever" Fok(?) <fok@scf.usc.edu> writes:

> I would suggest that the 100th, 201 to 204th fleet be either deleted
> (persumed destoryed during the invasion) or reconsolidated into a new
> fleet due to heavy losses. (probably incorporated into the most senior
> of the five fleets)  I don't know if 'displaced' is such a good description
> of what happened to fleets from conqured areas.  It seem unlikely that
> these fleets would withdraw and let their keep be overrunned unless they've
> taken significant losses.

In general, I disagree based upon the Imperial naval tradition discussed
in the *Spinward Marches Campaign*.  It is important to maintain the
tradition of a military unit so I doubt *any* unit would be disbanded
unless it had suffered a *particularly* stunning defeat.  The units
fighting the Aslan *ihatei* most probably were not *destroyed* in a pitched
battle but rather fought a series of engagements from which they were
forced to withdraw.  A similar situation would have occurred on the Vargr
front.

With this in mind I would expect *all* of the fleets to have survived in
some form or another.  This would permit them to be reinforced and rebuilt
by the New Era.  Recall that I mentioned the subesctor associations merely
to indicate the Rebellion-era origins of the fleets.

On another note, this entire issue of Aslan *ihatei*, Vargr and Virus
incursions into the Regency and subsequent borders must be resolved.  I'll
try to start that effort in another post.

> However, If the Aslan Ihati and the Regency are at peace in the New Era,
> these fleets could be re-established with Aslan Ships.

It's my belief (desire?) that many of the *ihatei* have been incorporated
into the Regency in those former regions of the Domain that were occupied/
settled during the Rebellion era.

> Also about 1/2 to 2/3 of Aramis Subsector was overrun by the Vargr
> Invasions.

Remember, I'm the guy who never bought the idea of Vargr incursions into
the Regency in the first place.  It's my view that a clever Regent ought
to have been able to keep the Vargr at bay by fostering their inherent 
instability.  (Some folks have claimed this policy would facilitate the
spread of Virus in the Extents.)  In any event, I would expect the Regency
to have reclaimed any territory lost to the Vargr during the Rebelion era
by TNE.

> The 193rd fleet would be tasked with the job of keeping the Swordworlders
> in line (punitive strikes/aggressive patrols/showing the Regency banner).
> Given the proximity of 43rd fleet to the area of the Aslan conquest, I
> would expect the 18th (Lanth) fleet be re-delopyed to help cover that
> subsector's border with the Swordworlds.

With the *rapproachment* between the Zhodani and the Regency during TNE I
would expect the Sword Worlds to be much less of a threat without the
support of their Zhodani patrons.  (Much like Cuba now.)

> Considering the central location of the 73rd (Mora) and 23rd (Rhylanor)
> Fleets, these would probably be the original core of the Patro.

The relationship between the Rebellion-era Patrol, the Quarantine Service
and the Regency Navy is one still to be discerned.  Wasn't the Patrol
originally staffed by Aslan?  This is why I felt many of the *ihatei* have
been incorporated into the Regency.  Does any TNE material mention the
fate of the Patrol in TNE?

> However the Reft fleets
> are probably gone.  Dulinor wouldn't let go of 188 perfectly good fighting
> ships so nearby.

The three Reft fleets on the spinward side of the Great Rift are clearly
safe from any sort of claim by Dulinor.  Their challenge was the *ihatei*
as well.

> p.s. Great listing.

Thanks.  Yours too.

> p.p.s. BTW I beleive the Deneb 212th (Lamas) should be 213th.  Still 
> conflict with the Regina fleet though.

Well, on a whim I've reidentified it as the 211th Group which at least doesn't
conflict with any Regency units.

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 612
Archive-Message-Number: 7699
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 18:22:53 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE: Regency Border Confusion

Gentlesophonts:

Rodge Sanger <rodge@cyberspace.com> writes:

> I was looking over some UWP data of the Spinward Marches
> recently, and many of the worlds I thought were part of the
> Regency (Rebellion Era) were marked as being controlled by the
> Aslan.


Ed "Caffine Achiever" Fok(?) <fok@scf.usc.edu> writes:

> Looking back at my MT map of the Spinward Marches.  Isn't all of Glisten
> subsector within the area of Aslan Conquest?  Not to mention about a quarter
> of Trin's Veil Subsector (spin-rim ward)?
> 
> Also about 1/2 to 2/3 of Aramis Subsector was overrun by the Vargr
> Invasions.

These are very important issues for our Regency sourcebook project *Shall
Not Perish*.  These problems with borders in the Domain/Regency actually
pre-date the Rebellion era discrepancies noted above.  (You'll recall my
questions about the discrepancies in the Border Worlds in Sword Worlds
subsector after the 5FW.)

What I'd like to do is to try to identify *all* `official' maps of the Domain
of Deneb (Spinward Marches, Deneb Sector, Trojan Reach and Reft Sector) that
either show borders of world allegiance codes from *Supplement 3: Spinward
Marches* to whatever has appeared for the Regency in TNE.  This would include
everything - like the map of Pax Rulin subsector in *Leviathan*.  I'd like
to identify the source of the map, the `real' date it was published, and
it's supposed date in the campaign.  (And please, let's try to be more
specific than just `Rebellion-era'.)

I'll examine whatever maps I have over the weekend.  Rodge and Ed, will you
give us the appropriate sources of the citations you used above?  Anyone
else, please contribute as you can.

In addition to identifying sources, we need to start to get a handle on the
discrepancies.  If possible, when you post your sources, please try to
identify as many discrepancies as possible.  Give world name and hex location
and whatever border/alignment discrepancy exists.

I'll serve a coordinator of this effort.  It shouldn't take but a few days
if enough folks participate.  Once we've gathered all the data I'll post
a summary and then we'll try to resolve the discrepancies for *Shall Not
Perish*.

Let's get busy!

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 22 May 94 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #613: Msgs 7700-7710 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun May 22 22:00:03 EDT 1994
Reply-To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 May 94 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #613: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 613  7700 20-May-1994 KenHagler@aol.c  TCS budget and another High Guard desig
 613  7701 20-May-1994 David Johnson    TNE: Shall Not Perish: Regency Borders 
 613  7702 20-May-1994 David Johnson    TNE: Sword Worlds << Gentlesophonts:
 613  7703 20-May-1994 David Johnson    Alt: Earth Colonies 1, 2, 3 << Gentleso
 613  7704 20-May-1994 Erwin Fritz      Sunbane << Forgive my naivete but what'
 613  7705 20-May-1994 David Johnson    TNE: Sword Worlds Navy 2 << Gentlesopho
 613  7706 20-May-1994 Jeff Zeitlin     *Shall Not Perish* - RICE << Subject: *
 613  7707 21-May-1994 Caffine Achieve  It's not just a job...It's a Game! << F
 613  7708 21-May-1994 Steven Gott      UWP's << Aren't UWP's weird?  I mean de
 613  7709 21-May-1994 KenHagler@aol.c  another High Guard design << Another Hi
 613  7710 21-May-1994 David Johnson    TNE: Regency Services << Gentlesophonts

------------------------------

Bundle: 613
Archive-Message-Number: 7700
From: KenHagler@aol.com
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 19:49:45 EDT
Subject: TCS budget and another High Guard design

Here's the TCS budget stuff that Cynthia asked for:

Revenue: B = Cr500 x GM x P

B=budget in credits, GM=government percentage modifier, P=population

    Government Percentage Modifiers

Type 0    1    2    3    4    5    8    9    A    B    C    D
Peace  .50  .80 1.00  .90  .85  .95 1.10 1.15 1.20 1.10 1.20  .75
War   1.50 1.40 1.50 1.20 1.45 1.40 1.20 1.20 1.50 1.20 1.50 1.50

Government type 6 (captive) pays at the rate of its parent state, type 7 
(balkanized) have different rates for each government.

Yard Capacity: C = P x GM / 1000

C=capacity in tons, P and GM are the same as above

And here's the next High Guard design:

    The _Exclesior_ class Battleship
    
BB-1 Excelsior BB-R6357F4-590106-00Q08-0 MCr86,649.2 100,000 tons
batteries bearing   Y 7 1 L  Crew=1070.
batteries     Z A 1 U  TL=12.
Low=535. Cargo=5. Fuel=37,000. EP=7000. Agility=5. Marines=300.
     Y=35, Z=50
Notes: This ship has a frozen watch, fuel scoops, and purification plant.

This is the original version of the _Excelsior_ class. The NFN built 15 
of these ships, most of them named for historical battleships. The 
exception was the lead ship, which was named for a fictitious ship class 
from Star Trek. This version of the ship saw action during the Old 
Islands War and the Topas War--following the Topas War, FAdm Connor 
described it as "the best battleship in the Islands."

This class also received the Series A refit immediately after the wars.

BB-1 Series A BB-R6357H4-590307-00R09-0 MCr86,286.3 100,000 tons
batteries bearing    Y   7   1 L Crew=1070.
batteries      Z   A   1 U TL=12(14).
Low=535. Cargo=527. Fuel=37,000. EP=7000. Agility=5. Marines=300.
     Y=35, Z=50
Notes: This ship has frozen watch, scoops, plant. The refit cost 
MCr1,887.6 per ship and took 15 weeks.

The Series A _Excelsior_ wasn't a major improvement over the original 
version. The Admiralty felt that upgrading the battleships further would 
delay improvements on other ships unacceptably, so the upgrade was 
postponed.

The battleship _Musashi_ was officially handed over to the Alliance Navy 
in 5629, and served as the flagship of the Alliance for several years. 
The Series A version of the battleship saw action in the Serendip War. 13 
of the ships participated in the defence of Neubayern, and two of them 
were lost or damage beyond repair.

The 13 surviving _Excelsiors_ fled to the safe worlds when the Imperials 
arrived. During the Occupation, the ship received a major refit, 
effectively becoming a new class of ships.

                        Kenneth G. Hagler
 _________________________________________________________________
|            kenhagler@aol.com           |  My insurance company  |
|             (619) 251-0054             |    is Beretta U.S.A.   |
|   PGP 2.3 key available on request     |                        |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   ...study of the military arts will make one who is naturally  |
|   clever more so and one who is born somewhat dull rather less  |
|   so.     --Daidoji Yuzan Shigesuke, _Budo Shoshinshu_          |
|_________________________________________________________________|


------------------------------

Bundle: 613
Archive-Message-Number: 7701
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 20:03:16 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE: Shall Not Perish: Regency Borders

Gentlesophonts:

Okay, here's my first take on a map.  Y'all can use this as a guide for
reporting on your own maps.

Source: *Spinward Marches Campaign* sourcebook
Published: c1985
Game date: c1111

This sourcebook contains two maps of the Spinward Marches: one inside the
front cover (8.5 x 11) and one centerfold (11 x 17) that are essentially
identical.  The borders show every world in Regina, Aramis, Lanth, Rhylanor,
Lunion, Mora, Glisten and Trin's Veil as within the Imperium.  Imperial
borders in Jewell, Vilis and Five Sisters are `consistent' with previously
published works.  Although they conflict with the UWP data that appears
in this sourcebook, the maps do not show the Border Worlds in Sword Worlds
subsector but rather show the united Sword Worlds like previous maps.  Two
worlds in District 268, Mertactor 1537 and Mille Falcs 1637, are shown as
part of the Imperium which matches the UWP data.

The sourcebook includes UWP data for all worlds in the sector.  This data
shows alignment codes for the Border Worlds for the following worlds in
Sword Worlds subsector:

1424 Beater (mentioned as capital of the Border Worlds in text on P17)
1522 Dyrnwyn
1523 Durendal
1524 Hofud
1525 Sting (mentioned as capital of the Border Worlds in text on P19)
1526 Steel
1626 Iron
1627 Bronze
1628 Mithril

Separate text also mentions that there are ten Border Worlds which is
consistent with this list.

Clearly, this source contradicts itself but other than the confusion about
the Border Worlds capital this might be explained by the use of an earlier
map here.

Because there has been some mention of Regency expansion into District 268
in TNE I've included the following list of worlds there shown in the UWP
data as `Client States', presumably of the Imperium.

1132 Bowman
1138 Tarsus
1232 Walston
1237 Collace
1238 Pavabid
1337 Judice
1340 Motmos
1434 Tarkine
1435 Dallia
1532 Elixabeth
1631 Talchek
1632 Milagro

That covers this source.  Let's see the rest of them!

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 613
Archive-Message-Number: 7702
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 20:27:03 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE: Sword Worlds

Gentlesophonts:

Cynthia Higginbotham <CHiggin@aol.com> writes:

> I've been watching this discussion for a while, and it has prompted me 
> to post some of my own material on Sacnoth.

Welcome to the Sword Worlds Development League, Cynthia!  Thanks a bunch
for some really great stuff on Sacnoth.  We've only got 22 more worlds
to go.

> There are some people of mixed 
> Vilani-Solomani blood, but the cultural heritage is overwhelmingly 
> Solomani Scandinavian-Germanic.

This may be what you've said but I just want to get clear that the *JTAS*
Contact piece says very specifically that this Teutonic heritage is
merely `cultural' and that the Sword Worlds enjoy the full range of
Solomani *ethnic* diversity. 

> The current government of Sacnoth is a feudal monarchy (NOT a 
> constitutional monarchy!); the current King is Harald VII.  He is the 
> same monarch who ruled before the war, though certain of his advisors 
> were ousted in the political re-alignment that resulted in the 
> formation of the Border Worlds.

So your work represents the post-5FW era.  Have you brought Sacnoth up
to TNE?  Where do you stand on the capital of the Sword Worlds in TNE?
Does Sacnoth have a chance?  :-)
 
>   System Fleet - After FFW 
> 
> about 70% of Sacnoth's fleet was destroyed during the Fifth Frontier 
> War.  What remains include 32,000 heavy fighters, approx.  600,000 
> tons Jump-3 capable (avg 50,000 tons?, approx 12 hulls), 4.8 million 
> tons Jump-2 capable, and 7.2 million tons Jump-1 capable (avg 5000 
> tons, 2 biggest 30,000 tons, total approx 1440 hulls).

Is this *TCS* information?  Didn't you say somewhere else (maybe you didn't,
I can't find it now) that Sacnoth's shipyard could only build 5000-ton ships?
If so, where do the larger ships mentioned above get built?
  
Some great work.  And once again, welcome to the `club'.  :-)

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 613
Archive-Message-Number: 7703
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 21:07:02 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: Alt: Earth Colonies 1, 2, 3

Gentlesophonts:

Tariq M. Rashid <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu> writes:

> Could someone post a five point (or more at one line per point) synopsis 
> of the Earth Colonies background.  I mean fundamental things.

Okay, here goes (but no promises of brevity):

Who: The Commonwealth of Earth, an interstellar state headed by Earth.
  Several interstellar entities known as Colonial States headed by worlds
  originally settled in a sub-light diaspora from Earth that began in the
  24th Century AD.  Major Colonial States are:
    Empire of Aztlan
    Abrahamic Synod
    Federation of Nyanza
    Ouroran Community
  Several other minor Colonial States exist.
  A basic premise is that Humans have finally `recognized' Dolphin
  intelligence and most of these Terran states enjoy integrated Dolphin-
  Human societies.
  The two spacefaring extraterrestrial sophont species that have been
  encountered: the Aeroi and the Meren.
What: The Commonwealth of Earth, the major Colonial States and the Aeroi
  and Meren are at TL 13.  Minor Colonial States exist a one or two tech
  levels below this.  Many independent worlds and mini-states exist at
  a variety of tech levels.
  The motivation for the 24th Century diaspora was a severe ecological
  catastrophe.  Coping with this catastrophe on Earth provided time for
  the Colonial States to establish themselves as major interstellar
  players.
  The Earth Colonies campaign uses a 3D campaign area based upon the
  `real' system locations from the 2300AD "Near Star List".
Where: the Colonies Sphere a 30 parsec *sphere* centered on Earth that
  represents the extent of exploration by the Commonwealth Scout Service.
  Other Colonial States have ventured beyond this region.  Both the Aeroi
  and the Meren originate from beyond the Sphere.  (Also known as the
  Earth Colonies sector.)
When: The dawn of the 31st Century AD.

> I would love to join this discussion.

Jump right in!  Keep in mind though that development of the Earth Colonies
campaign is handled by the Earth Colonies Development League (ECDL) off-
line through the newsletter *Melbourne Times*.


Andy Lilly <A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk> writes:

> EARTH COLONIES (603/7566, 7567) - More useful background (I don't play 
> anywhere near the Solomani

Keep in mind that the Earth of the Earth Colonies is not the same as the
Terra of the Solomani.  The Earth Colonies campaign is a completely original
campaign background. 

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 613
Archive-Message-Number: 7704
From: erwin@fritz.cuug.ab.ca (Erwin Fritz)
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 06:13:51 -0700
Subject: Sunbane

Forgive my naivete but what's so important about the Sunbane
ftp site?

- -- 
erwin@fritz.cuug.ab.ca

------------------------------

Bundle: 613
Archive-Message-Number: 7705
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 22:11:12 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE: Sword Worlds Navy 2

Gentlesophonts:

Steven M Bonneville <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu> writes:

> TCS shipyard capacity was 0.001 * population, in d-tons, roughly.
> 
> Agreed.  The Sword World fleets (two of which were in _5FW_) seemed
> similarly small, but I forget the figures offhand.


Kenneth G. Hagler <KenHagler@aol.com> writes:

> Here's the TCS budget stuff that Cynthia asked for:
> 
> Revenue: B = Cr500 x GM x P
> 
> B=budget in credits, GM=government percentage modifier, P=population
> 
>     Government Percentage Modifiers
> 
> Type 	   0    1    2    3    4    5    8    9    A    B    C    D
> Peace  .50  .80 1.00  .90  .85  .95 1.10 1.15 1.20 1.10 1.20  .75
> War   1.50 1.40 1.50 1.20 1.45 1.40 1.20 1.20 1.50 1.20 1.50 1.50
> 
> Government type 6 (captive) pays at the rate of its parent state, type 7 
> (balkanized) have different rates for each government.
> 
> Yard Capacity: C = P x GM / 1000
> 
> C=capacity in tons, P and GM are the same as above

Okay, let's look at the Sword Worlds Navy again.  I know these rules are
for individual worlds but let's try looking at the Sword Worlds as a whole
first.  Let's assume a `subsector government' of 5 (feudal technocracy).
The Sword Worlds population (c1120) is approximately 30 billion.  These
parameters give:

Budget: cr500 x .95 x 30,000,000,000 = 14,240 Gcr
Capacity: (30,000,000,000 x .95)/1000 = 28.5 Mt

Now I don't have much idea how to convert this to ships and squadrons but
just using the tonnage figure and an estimate of 50,000 tons per `capital'
ship gives 570 ships!  No wonder the Imperium hasn't conducted a pacification
campaign against the Sword Worlds!

Either you *TCS* wonks have to help me out here or we need to begin to
accept that the *TCS* rules just aren't compatible with the naval forces
that appeared in *5FW*.  (And start arguing about which to throw out?  :-)

Peace,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 613
Archive-Message-Number: 7706
Subject: *Shall Not Perish* - RICE
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Fri, 20 May 94 17:49:00 -0500

Subject: *Shall Not Perish* - RICE Papers

I've been watching the growing information about the "Regency
Sourcebook" (Working title, which I _like_, "Shall Not Perish") and 
decided to explore some aspects of the Regency that were never 
really explored even when the Third Imperium Chamber of Commerce 
published little black books.  The occasional Contact article in 
JTAS was good, but insufficient.  So, I decided to pursue the 
_cultural_ aspects of the Regency.  What my research revealed is 
introduced in the following document, RICE Paper #0000.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
RICE Paper #0: Introduction


1.  What is RICE?

RICE, the Regency Institute for Cultural Education, is a
non-governmental organization dedicated to increasing the level
of knowledge and understanding of the various cultures that the
traveller may encounter within the Regency and in its immediate
neighbor stellar states.  This mission is carried out through
our efforts to keep the Regency Library Data network as
up-to-date as possible, and our distribution of information
directly to travellers on request, through such publications as
this series of RICE Papers, and our representatives at traveller
assistance centers, including, but not limited to, facilities
operated by the Travellers' Aid Society.  We are funded by a
combination of tourism corporations, the Travellers' Aid Society
and similar extra-Regency organizations, and private donations.


2.  The History of RICE.

When the borders of the Domain of Deneb were sealed late in
1129, the resulting panic caused an upsurge in isolationism, and
a general decrease in economic activity on the interstellar
level.  The Domain government, in an effort to prevent the
fragmentation of the Domain, instituted massive efforts to
promote interstellar tourism and commerce, and to publicize the
successful efforts of the Patrol (later the Regency Quarantine
Service) in preventing the infiltration of Virus into the
Domain.  One of these efforts was the Deneb Cultural Exchange
(DCE), which had much the same mission as RICE today.  However,
as a governmental agency, the information available was limited
to that which the various worlds of the Domain chose to make
available.  Simultaneously, the Travellers' Aid Society created
the parallel Deneb Travellers' Exchange (DTE), which made an
effort to get accurate information from field researchers, but
which was drastically underfunded, due to a dropoff in the level
of utilization of TAS facilities.  In 1145, after the
liberalization of the Domain government, and the subsequent
reorganization into the Regency, and rapprochement with the
Zhodani, Vargr, and Aslan, the DCE was privatized and operated
by a consortium of megacorporate tourism subsidiaries.  Shortly
thereafter, an agreement with the Travellers' Aid Society
allowed the DCE and the DTE to share information and facilities.
In 1160, the arrangement was formalized, and RICE was created.
Now, we have been asked by various planetary and interstellar
governments to expand our target audience, from those who have
already decided that travelling is what they'd like to do, to
the general public.  Thus, the RICE Papers, of which this is the
first.


3.  What Are the RICE Papers?

The RICE Papers were originally conceived of as a set of
pamphlets focussing on a single aspect of a culture that a
traveller should be aware of.  When we submitted several drafts
to various governments, we were advised that our original format
was indeed useful, but that we should also provide broad
overviews of the various planetary cultures, preferably in a
format that could give the reader an idea of what would
typically be encountered in the course of a visit to the culture
in question.  Thus, there will be two series of RICE Papers.
Numbered RICE Papers will provide the broad overview, while
lettered RICE Papers will cover one specific topic in somewhat
greater depth.  The lettered RICE Papers are actually associated
with a particular numbered RICE Paper, and the letter will be
prefixed by the number of the corresponding numbered RICE
Paper.  Thus, if RICE Paper #1643 is on the planet Ruie, then a
RICE Paper focussing specifically on the legal system on Ruie
might be RICE Paper #1643-A, and a RICE Paper focussing on local
cuisine might be RICE Paper #1643-B.


4.  How Do I Read a RICE Paper?

RICE Papers are mostly ordinary text narratives.  However, as a
convenience, we are also providing extended UWP data, in a
DGP-based format.  These should be interpreted as described
in Appendix A to this RICE Paper, and the text considered in
that light.  At the end of this document, we have appended a
sample extended UWP, with brief annotations.  Also, be aware
that information provided by a RICE Paper is correct according
to the best information available to us at the time of
publication.  Governments change, and information may be
misinterpreted by our field researchers.  It is recommended that
you verify any information that you feel may affect you both
before embarking on your trip, and before leaving the starport
extraterritoriality zone on your destination world.  While we
encourage people to leave the extraterritoriality zone and
immerse themselves in the local culture, we recognize that under
some circumstances it may be inadvisable to do so, and
acknowledge that one can get a taste of the local culture, and
have an enjoyable trip, without leaving the zone.


5.  How Do I Get the RICE Papers?

RICE Papers are placed on the Library Data network as they are
ready, and copies of the text can be retrieved from the network
databases as required.  There are future plans for making
hardcopy available, but these plans have not been finalized yet.


6.  When Will the RICE Paper for <insert chosen planet here> Be
    Available?

In order to get the highest quality reports from the field, we
have chosen not to require that a particular planet be done at a
particular time.  We do record requests, and, when demand
warrants, add requested planets to a list of the "Ten Most
Desired Destinations" distributed to all RICE Liaison Offices.
As field researchers choose to go to one of these planets, they
are removed from this list.  However, we do not require that a
researcher choose a planet from this list, and in fact, many of
our researchers will deliberately avoid any planet on the list,
preferring to search out that one particular undiscovered gem
that is well off the major trade routes.  We believe, as
indicated, that we will get better reports from this policy, and
that this will better serve those who are looking for a pleasant
and interesting trip.


Appendix A:  The Extended UWP

The extended UWP appears as follows:

Regina (Regina:Spinward Marches/1910)
A788999-D A Hi Cp 103Re F7V M8D M6V
g=0.6340 day=22:43:52.5; year=683d 10:03:45.36/721d 12:49:51.6
atmo=1.8, natural weather
temp=-12 (6/lat +6 to -54) (season -32 to +19, 16 deg lat)
daily temp range 9
Agri, Ore, Compounds; AgriProd, NonMet; Parts, Dur, Cons; Rec, S/W, Doc
Prog/Adv; Comp/Peace; Har/Friend
Legal 9-A7A96, Tech DC-CDDCC-DDDE-DD-E

Line 1:  Name of planet, followed by subsector name, sector name,
         and sector coordinates, in parentheses

Line 2:  TAS Standard World Profile: starport, size, atmosphere,
         hydrosphere, population, government, law level, tech
         level, followed by types of military facilities on the
         world, trade classifications, population magnitude,
         number of planetoid belts (exclusive of the main
         world, if it is a belt), number of gas giants,
         allegiance, and the standard Hertzsprung-Russel
         stellar classifications for each star in the system.
         Use the standard interpretations for these figures.

Line 3:  Surface gravity, in standard g, followed by local day
         in hours:minutes:seconds, and local year in standard
         days, hours:minutes:seconds/local days,
         hours:minutes:seconds.  Normally, starships will
         gradually adjust their internal gravity and light/dark
         cycles to match the destination planet.  However, some
         people require more than the week of jump travel to
         adjust.  This information is provided to allow
         travellers to begin the adjustment process before
         embarking.

Line 4:  Atmospheric density in standard pressures, weather is
         either "natural" or "controlled"  This information is
         provided to allow adjustment prior and during travel.
         Note that atmospheric density significantly different
         from that which a traveller is used to may require the
         traveller to use assisted breathing apparatus.

Line 5:  Basic temperature, degrees Celsius, 35 degrees
         latitude, followed by the range in basic temperatures,
         expressed as (degrees per ~8 degrees latitude, followed
         by equatorial temp to polar temp), followed by the
         maximum change in temperature in the polar regions
         (maximum summer increase to maximum winter decrease,
         followed by latitude where seasonal temperature changes
         become noticeable).  Use this information and that in
         the next line when selecting clothes to pack.  On most
         worlds of technical level 8 or higher, indoor
         temperature is normally controlled to be within the
         range of 10 to 20 degrees.

Line 6:  The size of the daily variation in temperature.  This
         is the difference between the high and low for the day.

Line 7:  Classifications of products widely available for
         export.  These are listed in the order natural
         products; processed products; manufactured products;
         information.  Within a classification, products are
         separated by commas.  These are GENERAL CLASSES ONLY,
         representing the kinds of goods that the planet excels
         in producing, causing an export market.  Consult trade
         representatives to determine the availability and
         market for specific products.

Line 8:  Social classification.  There are three entries for
         this line.  First is progressiveness indicators,
         attitude/activity, then the aggressiveness indicators,
         attitude/activity, then the extensiveness indicators,
         global/interstellar.

Line 9:  The legal and technical profiles.  The legal profile
         consists of six entries, in the following order:
         overall law level, representing the likelihood of the
         traveller being required to experience one or more
         portions of the legal process; weapons law level,
         representing the restrictions on type, availability,
         and "carryability" of personal weapons by individuals
         not part of the planetary law enforcement agencies;
         trade law level, representing the level of restrictions
         placed on the exchange of property; commercial law
         level, representing the level of restrictions on doing
         business in general, including labor laws, zoning,
         permits, and so on; civil law level, representing the
         level of enforcement of restrictions on personal
         activity, and personal freedom level, representing the
         types and severity of restrictions on personal
         activity.  The technical profile consists of 14 entries, 
         as follows:  First, the range (high and low) of technology 
         commonly available on the planet.  Next, the technology 
         levels for Quality of Life: Energy production, computers 
         and robotics, Communications, Medicine, and Environment.  
         Next, the technology levels for transportation: Land, 
         Water, Air, and In-System Space.  Next, the _acknowledged_ 
         level of common military technology: personal and heavy, 
         and finally, the novelty tech level.  Items can be found 
         of the novelty tech level, but, as the name implies, they 
         are novelties, and not to be expected to be generally 
         available.  They are typically demonstration or 
         experimental models, or imported.

We believe that this is the minimum set of information needed to
alert the traveller to any general conditions that he needs to
be aware of.  Following this extended profile will be the text
of the RICE Paper, calling out the general characteristics of
the culture, and any noteworthy conditions or habits that can
help the traveller to understand the culture better, or to avoid
making mistakes that will insult the local population or involve
the traveller in legal action.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm open to comments and questions on RICE Papers, and suggestions 
as to which planets to tackle.  At this point, I am using as a 
baseline the MegaTraveller UWP for the Spinward Marches, except for 
Regina Subsector (from TNE), and as I find MT-era or later docs for 
other sectors/subsectors of any of the Spinward States, I'll use 
them as baseline material.  For the record, if nobody has guessed, 
I am using DGP's World Builder's Handbook to flesh out the XUWP, 
and applying liberal amounts of imagination to convert the result 
into a RICE Paper.  Comments, as I said, are welcome, including 
even those comments that tell me to shut the hell up.  RICE Paper 
#0001 will be coming soon.
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ QMPro 1.52 ~ How many wings does a cow have? -Tacky the Penguin

------------------------------

Bundle: 613
Archive-Message-Number: 7707
Date: Sat, 21 May 94 17:42:53 PDT
From: Caffine Achiever! <fok@scf.usc.edu>
Subject: It's not just a job...It's a Game!

Fellow Sentients:

From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE: Regency Naval Forces

>Ed "Caffine Achiever" Fok(?) <fok@scf.usc.edu> writes:

>> of the five fleets)  I don't know if 'displaced' is such a good description
>> of what happened to fleets from conqured areas.  It seem unlikely that
>> these fleets would withdraw and let their keep be overrunned unless they've
>> taken significant losses.

>With this in mind I would expect *all* of the fleets to have survived in
>some form or another.  This would permit them to be reinforced and rebuilt
>by the New Era.  Recall that I mentioned the subesctor associations merely
>to indicate the Rebellion-era origins of the fleets.

Yes but these subsectors also provides a 'Home port' for these fleets.  This
is particularly important for crew with families and routine logistic support.
Not to mention that it's a great way for the region to benifite economically
from these ships.

>spread of Virus in the Extents.)  In any event, I would expect the Regency
>to have reclaimed any territory lost to the Vargr during the Rebelion era
>by TNE.

Should not be too diffcult with out the Zhodani actively supporting the
incursions.  Also the Aslan ihatei units ought to give them an interesting
surprise.

>> Considering the central location of the 73rd (Mora) and 23rd (Rhylanor)
>> Fleets, these would probably be the original core of the Patro.

>The relationship between the Rebellion-era Patrol, the Quarantine Service
>and the Regency Navy is one still to be discerned.  Wasn't the Patrol
>originally staffed by Aslan?  This is why I felt many of the *ihatei* have
>been incorporated into the Regency.  Does any TNE material mention the
>fate of the Patrol in TNE?

I vaguely recall reading the same referance.  But considering the mission
of the Patrol as a centralized fast reaction force these two fleets will be
the idea core.

Over a period of 70 years I would imagine the incorporated ihatei units be
fairly evenly distributed throughout the Regency.  So between rebuilding the
reavaged fleets and setting up the Quarantine area the descendents of the
ihatei should be everywhere.

Also about five years ago at a Los Angeles Gaming convention I recall Loren
Wiseman mentioning the ideal way to deal with the ihatei is to trade land
grant for service.

>> However the Reft fleets
>> are probably gone.  Dulinor wouldn't let go of 188 perfectly good fighting
>> ships so nearby.

>The three Reft fleets on the spinward side of the Great Rift are clearly
>safe from any sort of claim by Dulinor.  Their challenge was the *ihatei*
>as well.

Ooops, I'll use my glasses next time I check the map.  :P

***:Regarding Regency Maps

Here's a list of the border hex from the MT Box set (c 1987)

On the South (Aslan/Rimward) side:

1541,1540,1539,1538,1437,1337,1436,1435,1434,1535,1634,1735,1834,1934,
1933,1932,2032,2132,2231,2331,2332,2333,2334,2335,2336,2436,2536,2537,
2637,2638,2739,2839,2940,3039,3040

Worlds bounded by these hex were suppose to be under control of the
Aslan ihatei.

Everytime I take a look at this I can only imagine that it's must've been
one heck of a fight.

At the North (Vargr/Coreward) side:

2201,2202,2303,2402,2503,2504,2505,2506,2507,2607,2708,2807,2907,2906,
3005,3004,3104,3203, (continues in the trailing direction into Gulf
subsector)

***UWP and alliegence code
I've been running non-'canned' GDW background for quite some time now
and don't have all of the old SM UWP data.  Perhaps Rodge Sanger
have those handy?

- -Ed Fok (a.k.a. Caffine Achiever)


------------------------------

Bundle: 613
Archive-Message-Number: 7708
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 15:20:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: Steven Gott <sgott@u.washington.edu>
Subject: UWP's


Aren't UWP's weird?  I mean describing a whole world with 7 digits is 
amazingly vauge.  Has anybody every worked on a more descriptive system?

Steven Gott

------------------------------

Bundle: 613
Archive-Message-Number: 7709
From: KenHagler@aol.com
Date: Sat, 21 May 94 16:44:19 EDT
Subject: another High Guard design

Another High Guard ship:

      The _Berlin_ class Light Rider

BM-1 Berlin BM-K6068F3-C00100-00009-0 MCr10,780.7 10,000 tons
batteries bearing      A  Crew=440.
batteries        A  TL=12.
Low=220. Cargo=218. Fuel=800. EP=800. Agility=6. Marines=350.

Notes: Has a frozen watch, fuel scoops, and purification plant. This 
class normally operated in groups of four.

This is the original _Berlin_ class rider. 180 of these riders were 
built, and the class was originally meant to serve as part of the core of 
the NFN, along with the _Provence_ heavy riders. Riders of this class 
were named for cities on Earth.

The class saw extensive action during 5627. In the Old Islands War, it 
was found that the Amondiage _Sword_ class was almost perfect for 
fighting the _Berlin_. In addition, the weaknesses of the rider concept 
were dramatically displayed when half the NFN's riders were captured at 
the Third Battle of St. Genevieve because they couldn't retreat from the 
system. The disastrous showing of the riders during that war convinced 
the Admiralty to drop the rider concept, although riders would remain in 
service for several years yet.

During the Topas War, the _Berlin_ made just the opposite impression on 
the Serendip Belt when a Light Rider Squadron and a Cruiser Squadron tore 
up half the Belter Navy. The _Berlins_ of the Light Rider Squadron were 
captured, but the performance of the NFN ships so terrified the Belters 
that they later ran away rather than fight an Alliance force.

Following these wars, fourteen of the twenty _Berlins_ captured by the Belt 
were given to Topas to serve as the core of its Navy, and the other six 
were kept hidden by the Belt. In 5629, the NFN officially gave twenty of 
its _Berlins_ to the Alliance Navy.

In 5631, the NFN decided to give their remaining _Berlins_ a Series A 
refit. 60 riders received the refit before the Serendip War.

BM-1 Series A K6068H3-C00300-0000A-0 MCr10,755.6 10,000 tons
batteries bearing     A  Crew=440.
batteries       A  TL=12(14).

Notes: Has frozen watch, scoops, plant. The refit cost MCr347.6 per ship 
and took 9 weeks.

40 of the Series A riders, along with the 80 remaining original model 
_Berlins_, participated in the Second Battle of Neubayern, where the 
Missile-A bays of the refitted riders helped pulverize one of the Belter 
battleships. 73 of the riders were lost, however.

When the Imperials invaded, 20 Series A _Berlins_ were hidden in deep 
space. The rest of the class was scuttled (very visibly) in the Neubayern 
system to prevent capture by the Imperial Navy. When the Imperials were 
thrown out, the 20 _Berlins_ were reactivated to act as system defence 
boats for a few months and then were relegated to museums. They never saw 
action again.

                        Kenneth G. Hagler
 _________________________________________________________________
|            kenhagler@aol.com           |  My insurance company  |
|             (619) 251-0054             |    is Beretta U.S.A.   |
|   PGP 2.3 key available on request     |                        |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   ...study of the military arts will make one who is naturally  |
|   clever more so and one who is born somewhat dull rather less  |
|   so.     --Daidoji Yuzan Shigesuke, _Budo Shoshinshu_          |
|_________________________________________________________________|


------------------------------

Bundle: 613
Archive-Message-Number: 7710
Date: Sat, 21 May 94 13:59:34 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE: Regency Services

Gentlesophonts:

PBJuzyk <PSUAlum@aol.com> writes:

> This is true but the RQS only maintains light assets (mostly inspection
> launches) for inspections while the Navy maintains a strong presence in
> these areas.  Naval ships are called upon to enforce the Quarantine
> procedures should firepower be required.
> 
> When Norris established
> the Quarantine (312-1130) the Patrol was combined with part of the
> Regency Interstellar Scout Service (Exploration and External Mapping
> branches) to form the Regency Quarantine Service (RQS).

Okay, so we have the Regency Navy (RN).  The Regency Army (RA) consists of the
traditional three force commands: Aerospace (COACC), Nautical, and Ground.
The Regency Quarantine Service (RQS) consists of assests originally gained from
the (mostly Aslan?) Domain Patrol and the DISS.  Is there still a scout
service in the Regency, an RISS?

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 22 May 94 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #614: Msgs 7711-7719 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun May 22 22:00:03 EDT 1994
Reply-To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 22 May 94 22:00:03 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #614: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 614  7711 21-May-1994 David Johnson    TNE: Shall Not Perish: Rebellion-era Bo
 614  7712 21-May-1994 AMNUSS@delphi.c  Melbourne Times <<  I've enjoyed readin
 614  7713 21-May-1994 rancke@diku.dk   Sword Worlds << David Johnson writes:
 614  7714 21-May-1994 rancke@diku.dk   Aslan ihatei incursions << Roger Sanger
 614  7715 21-May-1994 Eric Edward Moo  Re: Deep Space Jumps (not again!) << I 
 614  7716 21-May-1994 PSUAlum@aol.com  non-metallic guns << >I'd bet MacGyver 
 614  7717 21-May-1994 PSUAlum@aol.com  split << James T Perkins <jamesp@sp-eug
 614  7718 21-May-1994 PSUAlum@aol.com  Size of Military Forces << From: djohns
 614  7719 21-May-1994 PSUAlum@aol.com  TNE Antiarmor Gun << When the first Ant

------------------------------

Bundle: 614
Archive-Message-Number: 7711
Date: Sat, 21 May 94 12:10:02 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE: Shall Not Perish: Rebellion-era Borders

Gentlesophonts:

Now that we've seen the post-5FW era *Spinward Marches Campaign* borders and
allegiance data, let's compare the early Rebellion era information from
MegaTraveller.

Source: *MT Players' Manual* rulesbook
Published: c1987
Game date: c1116

This rulesbook contains a map of the Spinward Marches  inside the
front cover (8.5 x 11).  The borders show every world in Regina, Aramis,
Lanth, Rhylanor, Lunion, Mora, Glisten and Trin's Veil as within the Imperium.  Imperial borders in Jewell, Vilis and Five Sisters are `consistent' with
previously published works.  The map shows the Border Worlds in Sword Worlds
subsector but adds two more members (Tyrfing 1324 and Sacnoth 1325) bringing
the total worlds up to twelve.  The two worlds in District 268, Mertactor 1537
and Mille Falcs 1637, are still shown as part of the Imperium.  There is
no UWP data in this book but a library data entry for the Spinward Marches
(P91) mentions the Border Worlds.

Three of the other MegaTraveller books, the *Referee's Manual*, the *Referee's
Companion* and the *Rebellion Sourcebook* do not have any Spinward Marches
border or allegiance data (except in Imperium-wide maps that are difficult
to read at that scale).

Source: *Imperial Encyclopedia* sourcebook
Published: c1987
Game date: c1118

The sourcebook includes UWP data for all worlds in the Spinward Marches.
This data shows alignment codes for the Border Worlds for the following
worlds in Sword Worlds subsector:

1324 Tyrfing (added since post-5FW era)
1325 Sacnoth (added since post-5FW era)
1424 Beater
1522 Dyrnwyn
1523 Durendal
1524 Hofud
1525 Sting
1526 Steel
1626 Iron
1627 Bronze
1628 Mithril

This data is consistent with the *MTPM* map and adds two more former
Sword Worlds to the Border Worlds.

The Imperial Client States in District 268 have been affected by the
invasion of the Aslan *ihatei*.  The following worlds are listed as
client states in *IE*:

1132 Bowman
1138 Tarsus
1232 Walston
1237 Collace
1238 Pavabid
1340 Motmos
1434 Tarkine
1532 Elixabeth
1631 Talchek
1632 Milagro

The new information in *IE* reflects the invasions of the Aslan *ihatei*
and the Vargr.  Thirty-nine worlds in District 268 and Glisten and Trin's
Veil subsectors have Aslan allegiance codes and 21 worlds in Regina and
Aramis have Vargr allegiance codes.  This information is not reflected
in the sector map that appears in the *Players' Manual*.  The worlds
overrun by the Aslan are:

District 268
1337 Judice (was Imperial client state in post-5FW era)
1435 Dallia (was Imperial client state in post-5FW era)
1436 Talos
1537 Mertactor (was Imperial world in post-5FW era)
1634 Pagaton
1635 Binges
1637 Mille Falcs (was Imperial world in post-5FW era)

Glisten subsector (were all Imperial worlds in post-5FW era)
1736 Melior         1737 Egypt          1739 Aster
1836 Callia         1932 Mithras        1934 Weiss
1935 Windsor        1937 Overnale       1938 New Rome
1939 Craw           2035 Aki            2036 Glisten (subsector capital)
2038 Trane          2132 Centry         2134 Caledonia
2137 Sorel          2138 Horosho        2140 Romar
2231 Marastan       2232 Crout          2233 Tirem
2234 Inthe          2236 Tsarina        2237 Wurzburg
2331 Bicornn        2334 Ffudn          2336 Bendor

Trin's Veil subsector (were all Imperial worlds in post-5FW era)
2536 Squanine
2739 Dodds
2839 Farquahar
2940 Thornastor
3039 Tenelphi (Yikes!  `My' homeworld!)

With these sorts of gains into the Spinward Marches you would expect the
the Aslan to have overrun Sindal, Pax Rulin, Tobia and Gazulin in the
Trojan Reach.

The Vargr made gains to coreward in Regina and Aramis as well:

Regina subsector (were all Imperial worlds in post-5FW era)
2201 Dentus
2202 Kinorb
2303 Yorbund
2402 Heya

Aramis subsector (were all Imperial worlds in post-5FW era)
2602 Corfu          2607 Focaline       2701 Lablon
2706 Heguz          2708 Violante       2905 Pavanne
2906 Carsten        3001 Jesedipere     3002 Yebab
3003 Nasemin        3004 Zykoca         3005 Aramanx
3008 Pysadi         3102 Rugbird        3103 Towers
3104 Feneteman      3202 Junidy

Again, one would expect similar sorts of Vargr inroads into Pretoria,
Lamas, Antra and Million in Deneb sector.

There are Imperium-wide maps in *IE* that show the progress of the Rebellion
during 1116-1120.  Again, these are difficult to read because of the scale
but the 1117 map show Aslan *ihatei* in Sindal, Tobia, Pax Rulin and
Gazulin and in Usher and Vestus in Reft sector.  The 1118 map shows Aslan
moving into District 268, Glisten and Trin's Veil.  By 1119 the Aslan have
been forced out of Vestus.  By 1120 they have been expelled from District
268, Glisten and Trin's Veil.  None of these Imperium-wide maps reflect any
Vargr gains into the Marches or Deneb.

The situation on the rimward front does coincide with Norris's plans for
dealing with the *ihatei*:
1. Contain their advance to within 5 pc of the border (not quite)
2. Negotiate a halt to the incursions (basically a delaying tactic)
3. Build up forces to counter the incursions
4. Expell the invaders
By 1120, the Domain seems to have seen some success here although one
might expect the *ihatei* settlers to have remained even if their
naval forces were expelled.  (That's the nature of *ihatei* invasions.)

Next, let's look at the later Rebellion era as depicted in *Travellers'
Digest* and the *MegaTraveller Journals*.

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 614
Archive-Message-Number: 7712
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 11:39:31 -0400 (EDT)
From: AMNUSS@delphi.com
Subject: Melbourne Times


 I've enjoyed reading the Earth Colonies posts.  I would like to 
 subscribe to Melbourne Times but the ad in Challenge 72 doesn't say
 how much a years subscription is.

 Alan

------------------------------

Bundle: 614
Archive-Message-Number: 7713
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Sword Worlds
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 15:43:52 +0100 (METDST)

David Johnson writes:
>>From Sunday night, Hans Rancke <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
> 
>>It seems I haven't explained my idea about the economic cycles well enough.
> 
>No, I get your point, I just don't see any `facts' that support these cycles.
>What is it about the technological disparities between worlds that suggests
>these cycles?  I understand that you're saying that without things cycling
>up and down there ought to be no disparities - every world would be TL 15.
>Why does this have to be the case?  While it's clear that technological
>knowledge ought to be equivalent throughout `known space' there is nothing
>to suggest that economic development is constant as well.  It might
>be that lower tech worlds just haven't `grown' to higher technological
>accomplishment yet - like on contemporary Earth.  Why the need to propose
>these mysterious `techno-economic cycles'?

I think we've lost track of the original question. As I recall it (correct
me if I'm wrong) you started out by asking how come Gram was the leader of
the Sword Worlds when Sacnoth was so much more powerful. I assumed that
you were talking about powerful in the naval sense (since a TL or two
dosen't mean nearly as much as the population size in the economic sense).
So I proposed two possible reasons why the Gram and Narsil fleets maybe
wasn't less powerful than the Sacnoth: One possibility was that Gram and
Narsil bought TL 12 ships. Another, postulating these economic cycles, was
that maybe they had been TL 12 themselves and still had a lot of TL 12
ships from back then. (Those two possibilities turned out to dovetail so
neatly that they subsequently got intermixed, but that's by the way). 
Since then I've tried to defend the notion that the economic cycles are
_possible_. I don't say that they definitely must be, that there are no
other possibilities. Just that they are perfectly possible. I don't try
to prove that they exist, only that they could exist. OK? Nor did I use
them to explain the disparity of different TLs. My argument in that 
direction was:

	1) TL 15 _knowledge_ is readily available to anyone in contact
	   with Imperial society.
	2) That many worlds have lower than TL 15 _industry_, cannot
	   therefor be explained by a lack of knowledge, but must be
	   due to other reasons.
	3) The most likely limiting factors are economic.
	4) Economic cycles are well-known on Earth today.
	5) Granted, economic cycles does not cause TL swings on Earth
	   today (as far as I know).
	6) However _if_ technology is limited by economy (as it is in	
	   the Traveller universe), sufficiently large booms and recessions 
	   _ought_ to be able to affect the TL of a world.

>>(Remember, I also assume that a world can 
>>maintain ships and equipment at least two levels above their own TL)
> 
>I'm not sure this is really relevant to our discussion 

It applies to the ability of Gram and Narsil to maintain a TL 12 fleet with
TL 11 and 10 economies.

>but I'm not sure
>I agree with this idea.  A TL 6 mechanic is going to have problems fixing
>the electronic-fuel-injection in my TL 8 car just as a TL 6 computeroid
>is going to have difficulties trying to replace the vacuum tubes in my PC.
>A TL 4 electrician won't have a clue how to fix the CRT on my TL 5 TV.

But my whole point is that they _will_ have much more than a clue. The
knowledge is there even if the industry isn't.

>Of course, you're going to say she can because her world was at TL 8 when
>she went to trade school two decades ago.  :-)

That too.

>If the 5FW counters `prove' that there are truly disparate TLs in the
>Sword Worlds doesn't that lend credence to the idea that disparate TLs
>are due to disparate techno-economic *development* rather than `cycles'?

No, it proves that the authors of a board game have different priorities
from the authors of a role-playing game.

>And won't that, in turn, generally call for Sacnoth to be the dominant
>world unless Gram is receiving outside help?

Not in terms of the economy according to _Trillion Credit Squadron_. The
GPP (Gross Planetary Product) of Gram is close to that of Sacnoth and that
of Narsil is a lot bigger.
 
>>IMO one should prefer
>>the one that corresponds most closely to GDWs version.
>
>I agree.  Someone *please* dig out those *5FW* counters!

There are 7 SW squadrons that must be TL 12 (jump3 capable), 9 that could
be TL 12, but propably are TL 11 (jump2 capable), and none that can be TL
10 (no jump1 squadrons). The troops are marked with TL: One brigade from
Gram is TL 11 and one from Joyeuse is TL 10. The rest are anonymous and
consists of four TL 10 corps and 2.5 TL 11 corps. No TL 12 corps at all.
The whole force is much less than the total available Sword World forces;
the attack on the Imperium appears to be a secondary effort. Most of 
their prime units must have gone against the Darrians. Any Gram TL 12
units could be there.
 
>>Actually, while I've no doubt that GDW's Sword Worlds owe their origin to
>>Piper, they actualy have a lot less in common with Piper's than one might
>>think. 
> 
>Really?  How so?

I had always assumed that GDW just took all the Sword World names they could
find in "Space Viking" and used the Tolkien names and the Norse Mythology
names (not even swords!) to fill out the subsector. But a short while ago I
checked, and it turns out that there are a whole bunch of Piper SWs that
has no Traveller SW counterpart. Most of the duplications are with really
famous swords like Excalibur, Joyeuse, and Durendal  -  the kind of names
anyone would dig up once the idea of 'Sword Class' names had ocurred to
them. So what the Traveller SWs owe to Piper is actually little more than
the concept of the sword names. The societies are different in a number of
ways too (Women accepted in 'male' roles for instance).

>>I believe, however, that the GDW SW ancestors did, like Piper's SW ancestors,
>>flee a lost civil war.
> 
>I just checked the *JTAS* Contact article again.  It merely describes the
>original Sword Worlds settlers as `Solomani exiles'.  There is no mention
>of *any* warfare.  The time is the c-400.  

You're right. I've mixed my own idea up with the official info. 'Exiles'
does imply some sort of pressure on them, though.

>I'm not sure when the Interstellar Wars occurred.

This was long after the Interstellar Wars. _Cats&Rats_ says that they left
Terra in -420. That they used 29 years to get to the Spinward Marches
implies a desire to get _really_ away from it all. My interpretation is
that they were losers in a civil war in the Old Earth Union. Not official.

>>Remember that my theory ties TLs tightly to the economy. I know it hasn't
>>worked that way on Earth today, but it's the only explanation that I can
>>see why nearly all worlds aren't TL 15.
> 
>Doesn't different levels of `techno-economic development' explain the
>disparate TLs as well?  

That's just what I said. It's two different and independent bits of my
argument. The disparate TLs indicates a close tie to economy. Economy can
(and often does) fluctuate. Ergo TLs can fluctuate. If you postulate that 
Sword World economy dosen't fluctuate you get stable TLs. If you postulate 
that it does you get unstable TLs.

>>As to why
>>it dosen't happen in the Imperium and the Darrian Confederation:
>> 	1) Maybe it does. Why is only 4 Imperial worlds in the Spinward
>> 	   Marches TL 15?
> 
>Because these are the only four that have achieved that level of `techno-
>ecomomic development'?

Certainly. The stable economy theory. But one set of UPPs isn't enough to
say anything one way or the other about this. Of course, we do have 
several sets of UPPs for the Sword Worlds, but since they have world
populations fluctuating by bilions within a decade I don't know that
we can really rely on them. 

>>So this seems to be the assumption that dosen't fit. Examine it. Change it
>>to fit. Specifically the part of the assumption that has the individual
>>Sword Worlds tied together in an 'emperor-level' feudal technocracy. Try
>>to imagine the tecnocracies stopping at the planetary level.
> 
>But this isn't what *you've* proposed!  If Sacnoth is selling its high-tech
>goods to all the other Sword Worlds then the technocracy can't stop at the
>individual worlds because the economy doesn't!  

Are the US and Europe and Japan different countries? Yet their economies
are tightly intertwined.

>This is the nature of a
>feudal technocracy - the poltical situation is tied directly to the economic
>situation.  

>If the economy is interstellar then political power in interstellar...

I don't see how that follows.

>...and the center of power out to be the strongest technocracy - Sacnoth.
>Unless there is outside influence like the Zhodani.  Again, quoting the *JTAS*
>Contact article:
> 
>"A Confederation Council, made up of representatives from all worlds,
>regulates interworld trade, handles diplomatic relations with outside powers,
>and adjudicates interworld disputes."
> 
> Sounds like the Japanese *keiritsu* to me.

Sounds like a slightly stronger European Union to me.

>>If, that is, wars were decided by mathematical formulae. Let's not get that
>>simplistic.
> 
>Well, fine, but I'm merely trying to provide some data for your 10-to-1
>question.

No offense meant.

>>Nowadays they _do_ have a politically stable Confederation.
> 
>Doesn't sound like it from the above quote.

Perhaps not, but it sure sound like it from the length of time the Gram
Coalition has lasted.

>>Make that overran every two centuries and you're nearer the mark. This is
>>actually quite important. If the Sword Worlds really bothered the Imperium
> 
>>Imperium has taken quite decisive action whenever the Sword Worlds have 
>>ovestepped the line. 
> 
>I merely saw `decades' as analogous to centuries when comparing a millenia-
>old empire to a two-century-old nation.  

I think that is wrong. Whatever the age of an institution, the people who
run it usualy thinks in terms of their own generation.


>I feel the Sword Worlds *have*
>been a bother and that the Imperium *hasn't* taken *decisive* action. A
>pacification campaign is decisive and consistent with past Imperial actions.

The pacification campaigns took place before even the Ante-bellum period of
the Imperium. The 3rd frontier War took place after the Civil War and the
Psionic suppressions. I find no problem with accepting that Imperial
attitudes were different in those two periods.

>>OK. So you think the Confederation is one huge Feudal Technocracy, right?
> 
>No, I think it is a bunch of planetary technocracies too.  *You* have suggested
>there is a great deal of economic integration between these economies which,
>in my understanding, calls for a broader interstellar technocracy as well.

I must have a different definition of 'intergration' than you. I think these
worlds all produce whatever is most profitable at any given time and sell it
to anyone who will buy. That's not intergration in my book.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir


------------------------------

Bundle: 614
Archive-Message-Number: 7714
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Aslan ihatei incursions
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 14:27:17 +0100 (METDST)

Roger Sanger writes:
>Subject: Is Glisten in the Regency in 1200?
>             ASLAN INVASION OF REGENCY TERRITORY
>  
>I was looking over some UWP data of the Spinward Marches
>recently, and many of the worlds I thought were part of the
>Regency (Rebellion Era) were marked as being controlled by the
>Aslan.
>  
>The data in the Imperial Encyclopedia reflects this.
>  
>One of the worlds was Glisten!
>  
>I wouldn't have expected an asteroid cluster with a population of
>9 BILLION and a tech-level of 15, a naval base, a scout base,
>major shipyards with large Imperial Naval contracts, and a
>civilization based heavily on interplanetary transportation to
>fall to any but the largest conceivable Aslan Fleet!  What
>happened?

GDW failed to consider the ramifications of what they had already established
about Aslan ihatei and made a massive mistake in an effort create one more
Rebellion faction.

>MY QUESTION IS THIS:
>       What worlds were taken over by the Aslan invasion, and then, what
>                worlds were taken back by the Regency???????


Likewise Caffine Achiever! <fok@scf.usc.edu> writes:
>Looking back at my MT map of the Spinward Marches.  Isn't all of Glisten
>subsector within the area of Aslan Conquest?  Not to mention about a quarter
>of Trin's Veil Subsector (spin-rim ward)?  Assuming the conquest area
>would narrow as it reached deeper into Imperial territory, I dare to
>assume that Pax Rulin, Gazulin, Sindal, and Tobia would've been overran as
>well.  (Also see Imperial map in Survival Margin, pg 98)
>
>[...]
>
>Also about 1/2 to 2/3 of Aramis Subsector was overrun by the Vargr
>Invasions.  I would imagine the 214th also took a beating before this was
>allowed to happen.  If the terrority was not retaken by the time of the
>New Era the 214th would probably still exist but expect it to have shiny new
>TL-16 ships and performing quite aggressive patrols along the frontiers.

And the Vargr (as originally described) are equally incapable of posing a
credible threat. 

I've presented my arguments against the seriousness of Aslan ihatei threat 
before. I'll do it again if anyone wants to dispute the matter. But for
now I'll just post a letter that I worked out to explain away most of the
inconsistencies and what happened afterwards:

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message from High Commissioner the Lord Goolanzoon, Sector Admiral, Imperial
Navy  (ret.),  Minister without portfolio of the Archduchy of Deneb,  to His
Grace Archduke Norris of Deneb using the private cypher:


Mora, 345-1118

Dear Pruneface,

Well, the "Committee to Review the recent events in the Trojan Reaches with a
view to ascertaining etc. etc."  -  in short, what went wrong and what can we
do about it?   -   has finally completed it's investigation.  No doubt you'll
eventually get a predigested resume of our findings through your tame bureau-
crats, but I thought you'd appreciate a informal overview. (And to be totally
honest, I'm too damn exited to wait for an official reaction).
    First of all,  there's  no doubt that the whole thing was shockingly mis-
managed by the Duke of Tobia and Admiral Torgeson. They seem to've lost their
so-called heads completely.  True, most of the regular units were up coreward
watching the zhos, but the astrographics of the Reach is such that any first-
year  cadet  could've  stopped  the aslan by garrisoning a few key worlds and
forming  a few  fire-fighter squadrons.  These are ihatei,  after all,  using
obsolescent  clan hand-me-downs   -   not much superior to our Reserve forces
(rather the reverse,  if anything).  Hell,  give me a half-decent spy network
and  a  good  courier system and I'd've undertaken to stop them with half the
forces the two fatheads had.
    Instead  Tobia  and  Torgeson  concentrated their forces to guard the few
worlds that were already so well protected  that no sane aslan would dream of
trying  to  muscle  in on them and sat around with their thumbs up their bums
while  our bewhiskered land-grabbing friends grabbed left,  right and center.
And  none  of  the other nobles had the gumption to do anything more than try
and protect their own little patch  (mostly with pitiful results). Personally
I think that the proper cure for what ails the local nobility is a collective
brain-transplant.  If  you  can't  find  enough donors,  a set of cheap paper
substitutes will still be an improvement!
    I know, I know.  We can't really do anything about the nobles   -   but I
can  dream,  can't I?   -   but you ought to sack the top three levels of the
Fleet,  at  least.  There's a few you'd have to kick upstairs and a couple of
exceptions, but most of the idiots deserve to be cashiered. That's the result
of the Reach being too far from any real fighting for centuries,  I guess   -
all the fools wind up down here, where they,  quote "can't do any harm",  end
quote. Ha, bloody ha! I've said it myself, may the Guiding Spirit forgive me.
    I  spoke  of  fools,  but  I'm pretty sure that there's also a few knaves
around. That shocking business with Aki - ihatei that far inside the frontier
and 30 parsec from their base, for the luffa Mike!   -   couldn't've happened
without  the conniving of somebody pretty high up.  I have a few of my bright
young  men  looking into it   -   hopefully giving the lardbutts of the local
Naval Intelligence  (hmpf!)  a few well-deserved heart attacks in the process
- -  and when we find the culprits, the bastards are going to breathe vacuum!
    Mind you, I've often wondered what made the aslans commit that particular
bit of lunacy. Imagine trying to control 10 billion locals with a few hundred
thousands.  They  had a couple of tech levels on the locals,  true,  but as I
always say,  once you can make explosives the rest is just dressing.  Anyway,
young Blackstone-Hawke - remember him?  He was one of Santanocheev's hangers-
on  and wound up in charge of the Gazulin Reserve Fleet after the shake-up  -
Well, he seems to have had a few more brain cells than we gave him credit for
(or  perhaps  being stuck in the boonies for half a decade has wised him up).
The  moment he heard about Aki he put a fleet across the aslani supply lines,
and  the  last  I  heard about it the survivors were at the peace tables with
their tail between their legs.  (Not that far between their legs though. They
have  been  raiding Glisten and a lot of other places for supplies,  and they
still control the Aki system. But I guess you know all this already).
    Anyway, there's no getting around the fact that the dam is well and truly
broken.  Apointing blame is all very well   -   it's rapidly becoming the fa-
vourite  sport  of the local nitwits   -   but the real problem is what to do
about  it.  Curiously enough according to my tame sociologists the problem is
more the locals than the aslans.  You remember the old diplomatic joke?  "You
give  us  what  we  want  or we beat the hell out of you and take it anyway"?
Well, apart from at Aki and a few other places, the aslans seems to have come
up  with a variant:  "You sell us what we want or we beat the hell out of you
and buy it anyway"! Most of them prefer to buy rather than take  -  they just
don't  take  no for an answer!  Nor would there normally be any problems with
getting  them to swear fealthy to the Imperium.  Well,  that's not altogether
true;  some of the clans are quite anti-Imperium.  But we'd have the strength
to deal with them if we could get along with the rest.
    That  would  seem to solve most of the problem,  wouldn't it?  If they're
willing to pay for what they take and to become loyal citizens, then we real-
ly should be able to work out something, right?  Alas, the locals have become
thoroughly paranoid about them and in many cases refuse to share their worlds
with  them.  They  organize their own militias and try to push the aslans off
their planets. And you know what happens when you push an aslan  -  he pushes
right back!  If something isn't done, the descendents of both sides are going
to be sniping at each others 200 years from now.
    Fortunately  we have been able to come up with a solution!  That's right,
we have an answer,  and it's so simple that you're going to kick yourself for
not thinking of it yourself.  I did when my aide earned the fastest promotion
in history with just one sentence.  Think about it. What are our two greatest
problems  today?  One is that we have all these young aslans swarming up from
rimwards, eager for land and willing to fight for it, and we can't stop them,
because most of our ships are up corewards trying to keep the damn Vargr from
devastating more planets than they already have.
    I really wish I could see your face now,  Pruney.  As my aide said:  "Why
don't we get our two problems to fight each other?" Corewards and in Corridor
there  are  scores  of planets whose populations have been decimated;  untold
acres of prime land whose legitimate owners and their heirs are dead and gone.
We  can  hire all the ihatei we can get and pay them off with that land!  And
you can bet your bottom credit that the survivors are not going to regard the
aslans as interlopers. They'll be saviours!
    Furthermore, once we have a credible offer to make, we'll be able to play
the aslan clans off against each others. You know how fragile aslan alliances
are,  Frankly I'm amazed that the present one has held so long as it has, and
it  has only done so because they could get more out of cooperating with each
other than with us.  The land the aslans can get down here rimwards is mostly
second choice.  Give them an offer of prime land and they're not going to let
the  Vargr  stand  in  the  way.  And we'll be able to favour the friendliest
clans, leaving us in a position to make the unfriendly ones toe the line.
    With the extra strength the aslan can supply  (not to metion the ships we
will be able to spare from the rim)  we should be able to clear the Domain of
Vargr.  Hell,  we  may  even be in a position to clear Corridor,  although my
aslan  experts  doubt  it.  They say that the present massive burst of ihatei
will  taper  off in a year or so,  and that it will be a long time before the
pressure builds up to the pre-Revolution level. For one thing, the ihatei has
mostly  leap-frogged over all the neutral worlds we kept between them and us,
and  it will be some time before they've "filled in the cracks".  Still,  who
knows? Perhaps enough of them will prefer Corridor to filling in cracks.
    What  I  suggest is that we keep this plan secret and try to surprise the
Vargr.  The most pressing problem is Aki and the rest of Glisten. If you will
send me a warrant,  I'll take over the negotiations and get the ball rolling.
I've  already put my staff on to planning the logistics which,  I admit,  are
going to be a headache. But worth it, I'd say!

Cheerio,
Goggles.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Having seen this letter Mike Metlay came up with the following little joke:

Q: Would you rather have a lion attack you or a wolf?
A: I'd rather he attacked the wolf...)


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Bundle: 614
Archive-Message-Number: 7715
Date: Sat, 21 May 1994 03:46:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Eric Edward Moore <deathmaster+@CMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps (not again!)

I seem to recall that in CT adventure 12 (Secret of the ancients) the
players had to jump into a "deep space" hex.  This could be taken as
"official" proof you can jump into "deep space"

	-Love, Kisses, and a Neutron Bomb
		-Eric the Finn

------------------------------

Bundle: 614
Archive-Message-Number: 7716
From: PSUAlum@aol.com
Date: Sat, 21 May 94 02:05:26 EDT
Subject: non-metallic guns

>I'd bet MacGyver could build a simple Cannon-Locke or Matchlock out of
>Bamboo and twine. . .

So can James T. Kirk, especially when a lumbering lizard man (a.k.a. the
Gorn) was after him!





PBJuzyk                             | 'Most plans don't even survive
Reading, PA                         |  contact with Reality'
Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8) |   -Hammer Lanthrop, *Smash & Grab*


------------------------------

Bundle: 614
Archive-Message-Number: 7717
From: PSUAlum@aol.com
Date: Sat, 21 May 94 02:04:00 EDT
Subject: split

James T Perkins <jamesp@sp-eug.com> wrote:

> Maybe a better approach is for TML to join the information age
> and allow subscribers to select digests automatically cutomized to
> their interests, filtering the traffic for them, based on article
> subject lines. These digests would allow each subscriber to adjust the
> traffic level as well as topical interest.
>
> In the mean time, it would probably be wise for me to set up the
> simple, pre-TNE mailing list to stop the exodus today before the Third
> Imperium dies in the hearts of its fans.

Your idea of article subject lines seems most excellent and you list
topics seem fairly well broken down.  While I initially favored not
splitting the list in all fairness to those who have yet to embrace TNE
(or know something that infidels like myself are ignorant of) a split
seems to be in order.

Why should they suffer and in some cases pay for data that is worthless
to them.  I shall miss them but hopefully the filters will be feasable
and soon allow us to reap the benefits of technology> TML - mail listing
in the far future!


PBJuzyk                             | 'Most plans don't even survive
Reading, PA                         |  contact with Reality'
Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8) |   -Hammer Lanthrop, *Smash & Grab*


------------------------------

Bundle: 614
Archive-Message-Number: 7718
From: PSUAlum@aol.com
Date: Sat, 21 May 94 02:05:09 EDT
Subject: Size of Military Forces

From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)

> There are no clear rules (with the exception of possible *Trillion
> Credit Squadron*, which I don't have) tying naval forces to any sort
> of UWP data.

As a Latter Day Traveller with access to *PoT* info detailing the
military assets of a world can be found on pages 95-97 of that book of
ineffable damnation (TM the other company (lest mention of their same
summon them like demon-spawn)).

From that book: "The greater the perceived threat or need for security
forces, the more resources will be devoted to defense.  This system uses
total personnel as  auseful guage of the resources devoted to the
military."

balkanized worlds - ea. nation averages 1% of its pop in armed forces
(this can vary by 50%+ in either direction.)

non-balk worlds - only about 0.25% pop in armed forces

hi-pop worlds or countries - multiply total number of personnel by 0.5.
Note not all nations on balk worlds are subject, only those with pops of
1 billion+

These forces are broken into four branches: wet navy, air force (inc.
orbital & sub-orbit craft), space force, and ground forces.  The
calculation of the percentage of the total each force is comprised of is
fairly complex.  The space force for example:

Base percentage determined by starport: A = 10%, B= 8, C = 6, D = 4, E =
2, X = 0 which is modified as follows:

(ignoring TL 8-)
	Factor	Modification
	TL 9 or 10	x 0.5
	pop = 8	x 0.2
	pop = 9	x 0.03
	pop = 10+	x 0.004

Once the number of personnel in each force is established the equipment
is determined bearing in mind only a small percentage comprise the
actual crew with the remainder support & logistics.

Ex - Space Force: One combatant for every 500 personnel.  In large
services (30000+) half of the personnel will serve with major combatants
(1000+ tons) with one in service for every 1500 personnel.  The balance
will be regular combatants.  Small services (<5000) will partially or
fully man armed merchant craft with one in service for every 250
personnel.

These numbers seem skewed when put into use, for example:
Tizon (pop 300,000,000; TL 10)
600,000 personnel, 200 major ships,  600 regular ships

Narsil (pop 20,000,000,000; TL 10)
400,000 personnel, 133 major ships, 400 regular ships

Gram (pop 6,000,000,000; TL 11)
2,250,000 personnel, 750 major ships, 2250 regular ships

Someone tell me my calculations are off!! It is midnight. Or as
RJR96326@vax1.utulsa.edu (J Roberson) posted: "I think you eventually
pass out from the unrecycled air - you fall asleep as your brain gets
oxygen starved, and you don't wake up until the New Era ;)"



PBJuzyk                             | 'Most plans don't even survive
Reading, PA                         |  contact with Reality'
Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8) |   -Hammer Lanthrop, *Smash & Grab*


------------------------------

Bundle: 614
Archive-Message-Number: 7719
From: PSUAlum@aol.com
Date: Sat, 21 May 94 02:05:57 EDT
Subject: TNE Antiarmor Gun

When the first Antiarmor "Cruch Guns" were brought back the the worlds
of the Reformation Coalition an arms company on Aurora, de Corbin Arms
Company (dCA Co.) obtained a few and reversed engineered them, adding a
few refinements and modifications.  The following is the design:

Basic design: TL 10 ETC

Ammunition Design

Caliber                     12.5 mm
Cartridge Case Length       50.0 mm
Bullet Length               75.0 mm
Bullet Weight               61 grams
Average Muzzle Energy       25525 joules
Bullet Price    Slug        3.05 Cr
                HE          6.10 Cr
                DS          6.10 Cr
                HEAP        9.15 Cr

Weapon Design

Average Barrel Length       82 cm
Actual Barrel Length        65 cm
Barrel Type                 hvy rifled
Barrel Weight               1.95 kg
Barrel Cost                 780 Cr

Actual Muzzle Energy        22879 joules
Damage          Slug        10
                HE          11
                DS          10
                HEAP        11

Penetration     Slug        2-2-3
                HE          Nil
                DS          1-1-2
                HEAP        2-2-2

Receiver                    Light Self Loading
Rate of Fire                Auto - ROF 3
Receiver        Length      64 cm
                Weight      13.06 kg
                Price       3465 Cr
Stock                       Bullpup
                Length      5 cm
                Weight      0.1 kg
                Price       10 Cr

Weapon Range                133 m (DS = 160, HE/HEAP = 100)
Box  Magazine Capacity      10
Magazine Weight             0.19 Kg
Magazine Price              50 Cr
    or
Belt Magazine Capacity      100
Magazine Weight             1.9 Kg
Magazine Price              500 Cr

Optic Sights: Range x1.15
                Weight      0.1 kg
                Price       150 Cr

Recoil Reduction            TL10 Gyroscopic Compensator
Compensator     Length      0 cm
                Weight      0.5 kg
                Price       300 Cr
                            Automatic Action
                            Electrothermal Chemical Action



Component       Length          Weight      Price (Cr)
- - ---------------------------------------------------------

Barrel          65              1.95        780
Receiver        64             13.06        3465
Stock            5              0.1         10
Magazine                        0.19 (1.9)  50 (500)
Optic Sights     0              0.1         150
Recoil Reduction 0              0.5         300

Weapon Empty    134 cm         15.90 kg     4755 Cr
                              (17.71)      (5205)
10 rounds 12x75mm               0.61        30.5 Cr

Weapon Loaded   134 cm         16.51 kg     4785.5 Cr
                              (18.22)      (5235.5)
Bulk        8
Recoil:     SS = 2     Burst = 3

Summary Combat Stats

                                 Weight (kg)                Price
 Calibre          TL Ammo      Empty Loaded Ammo Magazine Wpn.  Ammo
12.5mm ETC - Slug 10 12.5x75mm 15.90 16.51  0.61 10/0.19  4755 3.05/30.5
             HE                                                6.1/61
             DS                                                6.1/61
             HEAP                                              9.15/91.5

Feature = O

                                                     Recoil      Short
Round                 Rof Dam     Pen      Blk Mag  SS  Burst    Range

12.5mm  - Slug         3   10      2-2-3    8   10   2    3    (133) 153
12.5mm  - HE           3   11      Nil      8   10   2    3    (100) 115
12.5mm  - DS           3   10      1-1-2    8   10   2    3    (160) 184
12.5mm  - HEAP         3   11      2-2-2    8   10   2    3    (100) 115



Any suggestions for a name for this gun?  The purpose of the gun is to
provide Coalition forces with a one-man weapon that can overcome battle
dress equiped forces of TEDs.



PBJuzyk                             | 'Most plans don't even survive
Reading, PA                         |  contact with Reality'
Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8) |   -Hammer Lanthrop, *Smash & Grab


------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #615: Msgs 7720-7737 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Wed May 25 22:00:04 EDT 1994
Reply-To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 May 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #615: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 615  7720 20-May-1994 Steven M Bonnev  Sword Worlds Forces << Since people ori
 615  7721 21-May-1994 b.borich@genie.  misc <<         <CAT             - Comp
 615  7722 22-May-1994 KELLOGG@thorin.  Traveller Sale << Hi folks,
 615  7723 22-May-1994 Mark Urbin       Traveller Sale <<   Put me down for the
 615  7724 22-May-1994 Mark Urbin       FF&S Pulse Pistol <<   I looked over Gr
 615  7725 23-May-1994 CHiggin@aol.com  Disease << From: A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk (A
 615  7726 23-May-1994 CHiggin@aol.com  re:TNE: Sword Worlds << From: djohnson@
 615  7727 23-May-1994 CHiggin@aol.com  Space Navigation << Navigation
 615  7728 23-May-1994 JSHiggin@aol.co  Sword Worlds & TCS << David Johnson:
 615  7729 23-May-1994 Jo_Grant.LOTUSI  Weapon Designs in Traveller << ~~inner_
 615  7730 23-May-1994 PSUAlum@aol.com  CT/MT/TNE << Ground Force Organization
 615  7731 22-May-1994 Mark Cook        O2 Toxicity... << In Archive-Message-Nu
 615  7732 22-May-1994 Steven M Bonnev  FF&S: Broken Daedalus Drive? << Recent 
 615  7733 22-May-1994 J Roberson       Economic TLs - or why everyone doesn't 
 615  7734 23-May-1994 Glenn Myers      High Guard question ... << Hi All,
 615  7735 23-May-1994 "Tariq M. Rashi  Re:Religious Reference << I think that 
 615  7736 23-May-1994 "Tariq M. Rashi  Re:Addenda to previous << I meant derog
 615  7737 23-May-1994 "Tariq M. Rashi  Re:Mass Drivers << To the sentient who 

------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7720
Date: Fri, 20 May 1994 23:23:44 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: Sword Worlds Forces

Since people originally asked about the composition of the Sword
Worlds military, here's the lowdown from 5FW:

Since the game is focused on the primary theater of operations, 
we only see the Joyeuse and Gram fleets.  The Darrian theater
is off the game board, as is the rimward theater and most of
the Sword Worlds Confederation, so the Sacnoth and Narsil fleets
are not represented.

Planetary forces are estimates converted from the wargaming
notation to something a little more clear to the general reader.

ARMY: 
       Mjolnir has no defenses, tech-10.
       Gungnir has one division, tech-8.  Balkanized world.
       Joyeuse has an SDB, one corps, two divisions, and one brigade, 
         tech-10.  Balkanized world.
       Gram has 120 SDBs and twelve corps, tech-10.
       
   Mobile forces available are:
    
       Six corps (one elite), two brigades, TL 10 to 11, mostly 
         tech-10.

NAVY:  Under the Gram and Joyeuse Fleets:
       Six BatRons, seven CruRons, two AssaultRons, one TankRon.
       Fleet is roughly 60% jump-2, 40% jump-3, suggesting roughly
       60% tech-11, 40% tech-12, minimum.
       
Three admirals are available.  One must be a Zhodani liaison.  
  Unfortunately for the Sword Worlds, their skill is inversely
  proportional to their rank.  The ranking flag, Riksdattar, is
  much like Santanocheev.  [Incidentally, if her name is formed
  in the Icelandic manner, Riksdattar is a woman.  Just an
  observation for the SW culture watchers.]
  
*ANALYSIS*

Hm.  I guess the SDB figures are for craft or are more abstract...
Terra only had 34 wings in 1001, after all.

Note that Gram is stated to be TL 10!  However, _Spinward Marches 
Campaign_ confirms the tech-11...but it also says Regina is tech-12,
which is an increase of two tech levels from previous supplements.  
Would someone kindly check the CT book _Supplement 3: The Spinward 
Marches_ to see if this is the case?  It might answer some questions.

Since the SW were not colonized until -399 imperial, and they have 
had no patron like the Imperial colonies, is it possible that they
are just entering a period of technological growth?

Note the paucity of forces available to the SW government.  It
would seem that they aren't really prepared for much of an
offensive campaign. 

Side notes:

The leadership in 5FW is interesting.  Generally speaking, the 
Zhodani have better leadership than the Imperials.  Santanocheev
isn't a complete disaster as an admiral -- he's a bit like General
McClellan from the US Civil War; he reacts and plans very slowly,
but in battle he's a decent tactician.  Norris isn't a tactician,
but he has a grasp of strategic planning and a reaction time that's 
pretty phenomenal. The IN actually has a couple of junior admirals
that tactically *impede* the performance of their fleets!

Seditious TNE influence:  by using _PoT_ rules in a wildly 
inappropriate way, estimated armed forces from UWP.  Ground force
seems a bit low, but probably explainable by needing more hands 
in space in a pre-Collapse professional military.  The SW seem to be
a naval power, anyway.

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7721
From: b.borich@genie.geis.com
Date: Sat, 21 May 94 03:29:00 UTC
Subject: misc

        <CAT             - Computer-Aided Traveller
        Classic         - Black Book/Traveller Book Ruleset
        MT              - MegaTraveller Ruleset
        TNE             - TNE Ruleset
        Imperium        - Third Imperium Era
        Rebellion       - Rebellion Era
        Regency?        - Regency Era
        Admin           - List Administrivia
        Announce        - New product, list, pbem announcements, etc.
        Miscellaneous   - Stuff that doesn't fit the above>
    Add:
        Designs         - Ship, Vehicle, Weapon designs, etc...
        Alt.hist        - Alternate 4th Imperium history....
 
    <Mark Cook: I appear, however, to have ruffled some feathers in the
TNE camp.  Sigh.> Probably the comment about creamed spinach and other
such insults........ I'll leave it at that...... (Though obviously
creamed spinach creates hardier folks it seems.....)
    And I still don't think a split is a good idea or a real solution.
But I'll give it a try.

------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7722
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 14:45:35 -0500 (CDT)
From: KELLOGG@thorin.uthscsa.edu
Subject: Traveller Sale

Hi folks,

A friend of mine is selling off his games collection.  He doesn't
have e-mail connections so I'm running this for him.
Postage is included in all the prices listed below.

FOR SALE:

$10 each or best offer:
Traveller Black Books 1-3
GDW Traveller Adventures 2 - 6, 8 - 13
Suppliment 3:  Spinward Marches
JTAS 6, 10, 12, 13, 15, 16, 18 - 21, 23, 24
Trav Digest: 7 - 10, 14 - 19
Challenge 25 up to the mid 30s? (not entirely sure of all issues)
Sky Raiders Trilogy (complete) [One THE best Traveller adventures]
Rescue on Galetea
Uraqyad'n of the Seven Pillars
Mountain Environment
Desert Environment
Duneraiders

$15 each or best offer
Megatraveller Ref's guide
Megatraveller Player's guide
Megatraveller Imp Encyclopedia

$20 each or best offer
GDW Alien Modules 2-8  [Everything but Aslan]
Alien Realms
The Traveller Adventure [possibly THE best Traveller Adventure]
Atlas of the Imperium
Spinward Marches Campaign
Beltstike
Megatraveller World Builder's Guide

Also available:
Space: 1889 (several source books and a couple boxed games
Traveller 2300AD (several source books and a boxed basic edition)

I don't have the listing of all the Space:1889 or Trav2300AD, nor
the numbers of all the Challenge mags, if you're interested, ask me
about titles and I'll check.  Otherwise I'll try and post a list of
titles later.

Note:
I am NOT the only person selling these off.  There is no guarantee
that these will be available, so do not send money yet.  At the
moment I am taking resevations only.

Of further note:
I will be leaving thursday for Germany.  If anyone wants any of the
above listed stuff, I will have to know by early wednesday morning
at the latest what you want.

I will return from Germany on June 6th.  At that time I will begin
checking who gets what and mailing off orders, but reservations
should be made right away so you can get what you want.  I don't
know how much will be left to offer after I return.

Please act quickly, I don't have a lot of time to co-ordinate this
as I'm leaving.

Scott 2G Kellogg
BTW, I've seen these recently for sale for prices magnified by a
factor of 2... :-)
^Z

------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7723
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 18:35:20 -0400
From: eclipse@world.std.com (Mark Urbin)
Subject: Traveller Sale


  Put me down for the Hiver Alien module and the Desert Environment
books.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Urbin -- eclipse@world.std.com -- These opinions are mine.
"As women and as lawyers, we must never again shy from raising our
 voices against sexual harassment." - Hillary Rodham Clinton, at a
 1992 American Bar Association luncheon praising Anita Hill.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7724
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 18:40:22 -0400
From: eclipse@world.std.com (Mark Urbin)
Subject: FF&S Pulse Pistol


  I looked over Graham Spearing's TL 11 10mm ETC pistol.  The numbers
all check out except for the bulk listing.  With a length of 28cm, the
bulk is only 1, not 2.
  If the bulk listing is ok for the player, but the 3 recoil is a bit
hefty, try adding a 4 cm muzzle brake.  It will make it bulk 2 (32 cm
length), but drop the recoil to 2.  It will only make it slightly
heavier (2.0071 Kg unloaded vs 1.8071 Kg unloaded) and only raise the
bottom line price by Cr50.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Urbin -- eclipse@world.std.com -- These opinions are mine.
Vikings?  There ain't no vikings here.  Just us honest farmers. The town was 
burning, the villagers were dead.  They didn't need those sheep anyway.  
That's our story and we're sticking to it.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7725
From: CHiggin@aol.com
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 10:46:43 EDT
Subject: Disease


From: A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk (Andy Lilly)

>  > First, viruses tend to be *very* species specific.

    *RABIES!* (Which afflicts *all* mammals with varying degrees of 
    lethality, i.e., some frequently infected mammals have large 
    populations of immune carriers....)

>
>  My biology knowledge (at the limit) tends to zero, so I can't
>  argue, merely propose:  a) I used the word virus.  Would any
>  virulent form of bacteria or other organism be more suitable as a
>  biological warefare agent?  b) The virus could afford to be
>  specific if it targeted the correct victim.
>
>  Surely some 'agent' which affected humanoids in a generic manner
>  (e.g.  respiratory) would affect all the human species and could
>  still be quite lethal to Aslan and Vargr.  Perhaps the Hivers
>  don't use the same blood

    Many blights and wilts are multi-species.  Fungi and viroids seem 
    to be non-discriminating...

    A number of virii are multi-species; influenza is perhaps the best
    known example.  Several truly unpleasant tropical nasties jump 
    from monkeys to humans (HIV, for one).

    Many epidemic diseases have vectors other than humans (Bubonic 
    Plague in rats & fleas, for example).

    For a truly evil virus, read the posts I made about a time-delayed
    nanotech "virus" back in the late Hard Times/Survival Margin days,
    when the Virus was a rumor being condemned on the TML.

    As a matter of record, according to the Julian Protectorate 
    article some years back in Challenge, the Gashikaan Empire once 
    tried to wipe out the Vargr species using a tailored virus.  They 
    killed a lot of Vargr, the disease was brought under control, and 
    the Vargr nations nearby were really pissed off and trashed the 
    Gashikaan Empire because of it.  I don't remember whether this was
    the "Sack of Gashikaan" or if the bitterness fostered by the "Sack
    of Gashikaan" was what led to the attempted genocide.  In any 
    case, the modern Second Gashikaan Empire is still a bunch of 
    Vargrphobes.


                        -- Cynthia Higginbotham


    "Q:  What is the difference between the BATF and the Gestapo?"
    "A:  BATF agents speak English."




------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7726
From: CHiggin@aol.com
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 10:46:34 EDT
Subject: re:TNE: Sword Worlds

From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)

>So your work represents the post-5FW era.  Have you brought Sacnoth up
>to TNE?  Where do you stand on the capital of the Sword Worlds in TNE?
>Does Sacnoth have a chance?  :-)

(1) No. My groups are still post-5FW, and I doubt I will ever use the TNE
universe.  (However, we have the Imperial Occupation of the Islands Cluster
and the Sixth Frontier War coming up instead... and possibly the 2nd Solomani
Rim War.)

(2 & 3) Sacnoth will take Capital of the Border Worlds Confederation away
from Beater as the popular backlash against "knuckling under to Impy puppets"
crests; the Border Worlds will cease to be a tame puppet...er client state of
the Imperium.  However, true to traditional Sword Worlds fractiousness, the
Border Worlds/Sword Worlds split will stand, as  Gram and Sacnoth will be
unable to agree on proper usage of the Metal Worlds.  (The Border Worlds has
opened them to colonization, particularly from overcrowded Sacnoth -- the
Sword Worlds, still having many underpopulated, relatively pleasant worlds
open for further colonization, demands that they be closed to further
colonization and retained as "resource worlds"...i.e., they don't want
Sacnoth having more political allies and votes in a reunited Confederation
government).  The Joyeuse civil war will finally grind to a close, as those
who have been fostering instability there change policies, and Joyeuse will
become an significant part of Sword World politics once it rebuilds.

>Is this *TCS* information?  Didn't you say somewhere else (maybe you didn't,
>I can't find it now) that Sacnoth's shipyard could only build 5000-ton
ships?
>If so, where do the larger ships mentioned above get built?

Some were built on Gram, and some in Sacnoth's yards *before* the war, before
the Impy Navy raid that trashed Sacnoth's A yards... (yes, I am playing fast
& loose with old history -- i.e., the CT Spinward Marches Supplement;
remember that UPPs are based on IISS surveys and can be out of date...
especially if they update them by hiring a detached duty scout to spend 20
years per sector updating them... remember Adventure #0, that came with some
versions of the CT boxed set?)

>22 more worlds to go.

Sorry, Sacnoth is the only world I have quite that much detail on (one of my
PBSEM players has a character that lives and works there), but I have some
information on Big Game Hunting on Hrunting,...




------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7727
From: CHiggin@aol.com
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 10:46:54 EDT
Subject: Space Navigation

Navigation

         Normal space navigation is carried out with the aid of System
    Navigation Beacons, which provide precise 4-D position fixes to
    users.  Most System Navigation Beacons use some form of
    spread-spectrum technology to reduce the power required to make a
    broadcast signal heard across an entire solar system, and to avoid
    drowning out nearby radio traffic from the power of the signal.
    Since a spread-spectrum signal is weaker than background noise at
    the receiver, the receiver has to "know" the Pseudo-Random Noise
    (PRN) code imposed on the carrier signal to identify signal amid
    background noise.  The Imperium has a set of standard PRNs used
    Imperium-wide for normal use.  Military navigation systems have
    their own secret PRNs with encrypted Nav signals.

        In a war zone, the Imperial Navy (or local authority, if
    non-Imperial) will shut down the civilian system to impair enemy
    navigation insystem.  This is one reason, in addition to hazards
    from combatants, that War Zone systems are made Amber zones or
    occasionally Red Zones.  [BTW, this is based on our (1992 Real
    World) GPS and Russia's GLONASS systems].

         Grade of starport usually implies comparable grade of
    navigation systems.  A class E starport may have one beacon at the
    starport (which is useful for finding the starport, and not much
    else), whereas a class A starport mainworld has a full
    constellation of navigation beacons around every major body in the
    system (which makes deep space navigation a trivial exercise).

         Interstellar jumps make use of a published ephemeris for a
    system, listing all the celestial bodies and major installations,
    and their orbital statistics such that their positions can be
    calculated at any given time.  With an accurate ephemeris and
    competent navigation, a merchant ship or battleship can jump
    precisely to the 100-diameter limit of their destination world.
    Without an accurate ephemeris, it is usually necessary to jump
    into the outer system, above the plane of the ecliptic (to avoid
    debris and traffic), and calculate one's own ephemeris from
    collected sensor data.

         Many worlds with less-than-trusting rulers issue falsified
    ephemerii.  The fixes provided by their System Navigation Beacons
    compensate for this falsification, so it has no effect in ordinary
    use.  During Emergencies (war, raids, etc.), the Beacons can be
    shut down, and the falsified ephemeris makes it harder (tho far
    from impossible) to get an accurate jump fix, and, more important,
    makes it nearly impossible to launch a ballistic strike from an
    extreme distance (i.e., throw asteroids at the planet from beyond
    detection range.)  The ephemerii used by the Imperial Navy are
    either *UNCONFIRMED* (the public, possibly falsified ephemerii
    issued to civilians) or *CONFIRMED* (true, usually classified,
    ephemerii that have been verified true by Scout Service
    surveying.)


                        -- Cynthia Higginbotham


    "Q:  What is the difference between the BATF and the Gestapo?"
    "A:  BATF agents speak English."



------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7728
From: JSHiggin@aol.com
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 10:09:37 EDT
Subject: Sword Worlds & TCS

David Johnson:

> Let's assume a `subsector government' of 5 (feudal technocracy).
> The Sword Worlds population (c1120) is approximately 30 billion.
> These parameters give:

> Budget: cr500 x .95 x 30,000,000,000 = 14,240 Gcr
> Capacity: (30,000,000,000 x .95)/1000 = 28.5 Mt

	This is pretty accurate, but quite misleading.  Based on what you
wrote here:

> Now I don't have much idea how to convert this to ships and squadrons
> but just using the tonnage figure and an estimate of 50,000 tons per
> `capital' ship gives 570 ships!  No wonder the Imperium hasn't
> conducted a pacification campaign against the Sword Worlds!

	_You_ misunderstood the significance of these numbers, at least.
The budget is an annual budget, and the capacity is shipyard capacity.
	Since TCS requires 10% of ship cost as annual maintenance, to all
intents, the _value_ of the SW Navy is 10 times the annual budget, or
TCr142.4.
	The shipyard capacity has some bearing on Navy size, but, in my
experience, not much.  The only world in any of my TCS games that _ever_
operated its shipyard at capacity was one doing a lot of contract work
for other players (due to its higher TL).  Most of the worlds seldom
operated at more than 20% capacity.

	However, a good guideline for Fleet size is 1 ton of ship for
KCr750. This results in a Sword Worlds' Fleet of about 190,000,000 tons,
or 3800 ships in the 50,000T range.
	Note that this thumbrule can vary quite a lot, depending on TL, but
it works reasonably well from TL11-15.


> Either you *TCS* wonks have to help me out here or we need to begin to
> accept that the *TCS* rules just aren't compatible with the naval
> forces that appeared in *5FW*.  (And start arguing about which to
> throw out?  :-)

	The two sets of rules are completely incompatible.  I have, however,
always assumed that the FFW fleets are a simplification of the reality
it pretends to model for ease of play.  Who wants to play a game with
10,000 pieces, after all?

				---Steve


------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7729
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 06:20:08 EDT
From: Jo_Grant.LOTUSINT@PLATO.lotus.com
Subject: Weapon Designs in Traveller

~~inner_header~~
To: UNIXML::"traveller@engrg.uwo.ca"
Subject: Weapon Designs in Traveller

Much as I dispise the authors of TNE for throwing away the
whole potential of CT/MT and restricting the game to a
not-very-interesting universe there is one bit they managed
to get just right. From the back of FF&S:
	"Other games give you lists of weapons, we give you
the factory".
	This is *exactly* what Traveller used to be about, but
not just for weapons, but the universe too. Now that the TNE
bitch is out of the way this opens up some interesting ideas
I have had...

	I think the FF&S weapons & ammo design is a pretty cool
idea. It would be cute and easy enought to do to have the 
simple ammo/pistol/rifle rules in a small application for
design. The problem is that as they exist they are useless
to me since I spit upon TNE combat.
	However, the only really TNE specific bit is where they
translate the physical stats of the gun (muzzle velocity,
etc) into those stange numbers. If you just replaced this table
with one showing good old penetration, attenuation and damage
you would have nifty firearm design rules for MT. By a similar
mechanism you would have the same for CT.
	Taking this idea to the logical extreme I thought that once
I had an application I could just get an expert at any particular
system to translate the physical outputs into the game mechanics
of *whatever* particular system. GURPS, Paranoia, etc, etc.
	We don't need the application to start with. Just the tables.
Whose first? I'll happily coordinate the results.

				Jo

BTW: my return address is jo_grant@crd.lotus.com. It isn't that
I'm still in Japan it is just they changed the gateway in Boston
and it don't get the headers right anymore.

------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7730
From: PSUAlum@aol.com
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 06:31:24 EDT
Subject: CT/MT/TNE

Ground Force Organization

Recently there was some discussion re. the composition of ground forces.
According to the Book of Moron (thats Path of Tears for those who have
embraced TNE which includes me) forces are comprised of the following:

one battalion equivalent per 2000 personnel (includes one maneuver 	
	battalion (of about 500) and its support personnel (about 500) 	
	plus up to 1000 others in the supporting military infrastructure

types of maneuver bttns: infantry, cavalry, armor, airborne, commando, 	
	etc.
support bttns:
	combat support: combat eng, field art, air defense, antitank art,
		coastal defense, fortress art, etc.
	non-cmbt support: signal, forward supply, transport, maintenance,
		MPs, etc.
infrastructure: medical, veterinary, admin, training, theater and rear 	
	area supply, judge advocate general, and general staff personnel


one division equivalent per 20000 personnel typically of 10 maneuver and
10 support battalions and 10000 infrastructure personnel

Fron TL5+ the typical battalion consists of five 100 man comnpanies: 3
line, 1 support, 1 HQ

Hope this may be of some use to someone.  As to my intended discussion
of the RQS in the new era it will need to simmer for now . . . the old
computer needs to go into the shop and based on the last time I'll be
without for 4-6 weeks :(   At least that should give me time to come up
with something really creative.




PBJuzyk                             | 'Most plans don't even survive
Reading, PA                         |  contact with Reality'
Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8) |   -Hammer Lanthrop, *Smash & Grab*


------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7731
From: Mark Cook <markc@CSOS.ORST.EDU>
Subject: O2 Toxicity...
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 23:27:26 -0700 (PDT)

In Archive-Message-Number 7639, Gerry Williams <gsw@aloft.att.com>
writes:

> There are easy ways to neutralize the CO2, however.  Divers
> that use recycled air do this (supplementing with additional
> O2).  There are also ways to convert it back to O2 (I think
> submarines do this now).

Old style rebreathers used CaCO3 to absorb CO2.  Modern rebreathers
crack the CO2 electrically and recycle the O2.  This is the same
method used aboard nuclear subs.

> The real hazard is that pure O2 is deadly at ANY kind of
> pressure above 1 atmosphere.  Pure O2 will allow you to
> breathe at a LOWER pressure, however.

Not quite accurate.  O2 toxicity begins at 2 ATMs of 100% O2.
Anything less is not normally dangerous.  This is the reason
that std. compressed air diving is physiologically limited to
a max. depth of 289 FSW (ft. of Sea Water).  That equals 9
ATMs (atmospheres) of sea water, plus 1 for the surface, for
a total of 10 ATMs.  The rounded value of O2 as comprising 20%
of normal air, gives it a partial pressure of 2 ATMs at 288
FSW.  Any deeper diving requires custom mixed gases.

Mark F. Cook - PADI Rescue Diver #88348821

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook * mark cook consulting * shoestring graphics & printing
2055 sw whiteside dr. * corvallis, or, 97333-1406 * markc@csos.orst.edu
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
"When your enemy falls, don't rejoice -- but don't pick him up either."
                                             - Yiddish proverb

------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7732
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 23:51:27 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: FF&S: Broken Daedalus Drive?

Recent Excursions Into _Fire, Fusion, & Steel_.

Ok, I take back what I said about proofreading, here's a *real*
doozy....

Recently, for whatever reason, I looked into designing a ship 
capable of interstellar flight with a payload of five billion
tons, using FF&S.  (A *huge* payload.  Some of the CT referees
out there who liked FASA may know where my number is coming
from.)  So I checked out drive systems.

FTL travel works great...a ship with jump-1, and able to jump
three times without refueling, uses 32% of its internal volume
for drive systems, including fuel, as would any other large 
jump-1 ship.

STL travel stinks.  And it revealed a *major* bug in the FF&S
rules.  At tech-9 and above, the best options are the fusion
rocket and the Daedalus drive.  Supposedly, the Daedalus drive
is a better choice; "the engines [have] a lower thrust-to-mass
ratio than a conventional fusion rocket, but provide fuel 
efficiency about one order of magnitude higher." (p. 74)

#$**$%^@!  <This is a family mailing-list.>  :)

Per cubic meter of maneuver drive: (in metric tons)
 
                  THRUST       FUEL USE  ...fuel per ton of thrust
 Daedalus drive: 1.5 ton   0.00050 ton/hr.     0.000334 ton/hr
 Fusion rocket   9.0 ton   0.00035 ton/hr.     0.000039 ton/hr
 HEPlaR drive:  33.4 ton   0.02917 ton/hr.     0.000873 ton/hr
 
Figures are rounded.  HEPlaR figures include the required fusion
power plant in the drive's cubic meter, here assumed to be at
tech-10, are included for comparison with the tech-9 drive systems.
The advantage of a higher thrust-to-mass ratio is that your engine
is smaller.  HEPlaR fuel use doesn't improve...but the engines
get smaller.

The Daedalus drive is an order of magnitude *worse* in fuel 
efficiency than the conventional fusion rocket!!!  Combined
with its' worse thrust-to-mass ratio, the engine is fairly
worthless.

Of course, maybe fuel efficiency isn't the issue...a big fusion
rocket isn't exactly a healthy thing to be around.  But that
wasn't the selling point in FF&S!  At tech-10, the smaller motor
of the HEPlaR probably outweighs the fuel efficiency advantage
of the Daedalus drive.  (It might be worthwhile at late tech-8.
The Daedalus design was originally supposed to be staged, and
that may also help its' prospects as an interstellar drive, but
not as a competitor with the fusion rocket.)  The fuel 
efficiency of all of these seems to be a bit short of the kind
of performance I was looking for.  (It *is*, however, quite
realistic.)

This also brings up another interesting point.  It seems to me 
that even accounting for the extra mass needed in the motor of
a fusion rocket, it is more efficient than a HEPlaR drive.  This
suggests that there may be an advantage to using fusion rocket
designs in some cases on a military vessel, perhaps as a second
drive system.  

Any comments?  Am I reading this wrong?

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7733
Date: Sun, 22 May 1994 10:52:13 -0600
From: RJR96326@vax1.utulsa.edu (J Roberson)
Subject: Economic TLs - or why everyone doesn't have the bomb

Hans & Dave are at it again, arguing over the Sword Worlds. Please, allow
me to offer my own examples and illustratons to the argument.

Many would agree that the knowledge on how to build an atomic bomb is
readily available in books stashed in libraries the world over. Thus,
anyone can get the knowledge to build a bomb.

I want one, so I go to the library and check out "How to win friends &
influence people the Oppenheimer way". I read carefully, and build a case
and timer, etc. Then I hit a stumbling block: Plutonium. Where do I get it?

Regulations aside, I can't afford it. Looks like if I want my own nuke, I
will need to invest some money or play the lottery frequently until I get
enough cash to buy or manufacture Plutonium.

Similarly, even if a TL10 world had access to TL12 technology, they
wouldn't be able to put that knowledge to much use until they had invested
time & money into developing the appropriate infrastructure.

I agree that most world have access to the knowledge. However, I would bet
that some wouldn't, and even those that did still would'nt be able to put
it to much use.

Take the example of the TL6 mechanic trying to fix a TL8 car. Sure, he's
read the manual, and maybe seen a videotape or two, but he hasn't actually
*done* it. Mechanically, I would rule that he still has a skill penalty.
Knowledge must be confirmed.

I imagine that what would happen would be that a number of specialists who
were familiar with higher TL equipment would make a living fixing it,
though the market would be smaller since all that hi-TL equipment is going
to be imported.

Creativity over Originality.
Consistency is a Flaw.
J Roberson      RJR96326@vax1.utulsa.edu        Priss@io.com





------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7734
From: Glenn Myers <gem188@swanson.com>
Subject: High Guard question ...
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 11:34:51 EDT



Hi All,

I really like Ken Hagler's High Guard ship designs. I'm a big fan of
those simple but useful design and combat rules. Also, I like to 
collect designs so please keep them coming. I'll try to post some 
of my old favorites soon.

I recently found a 400k floppy with my circa 1985-86 traveller
campaign on it.  I've been able to recover most of the information
from some corrupted MacWrite files. What is this? Has the Virus
destroyed my Third Imperium as well as GDW's?  ;-) Anyway, the 
files require some cleaning up and format changes. I'll try to post
them in the next few weeks provided that my wife doesn't go into 
labor first. It's mostly amber zones and background. 

I'd like to see a CT/MT list because I've been overwhelmed by the
volume lately. I hesitate to bring up CT issues because it's hard
enough to follow everything that's going on now. 

But, here it goes....

I remember in the early TML a lot of bandwidth was spent on how High
Guard was flawed concerning Agility. The argument was that the same
energy was being used twice. I've looked through my archives and I
can't find if this was resolved. Could someone please fill me in? 



TTFN

Glenn


- ----------------------------------
| Glenn E. Myers                 |
| gmyers@swanson.com             |
| QA software engineer           |
| Swanson Analysis Systems, Inc. |
| (412) 873-2913                 | 
- ----------------------------------


------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7735
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 12:48:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Subject: Re:Religious Reference

I think that it would be best for all on the TML if we refrained from 
religious references.  The TML is no place for that.  Yeah the Ayatollah 
does twist Al-Islam but Hitler did the same thing to Christianity...so 
lets just drop it OK....

Tariq



------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7736
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 12:59:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Subject: Re:Addenda to previous

I meant derogatory religious references...I believe that every religion 
should constantly be questioned but insulted and questioned are two 
different things...

Tariq  (Getting off the subject)

(Generals tell boys to drop fire on people....
(but wont let them paint f___ on their airplanes because....
(it's obscene!



------------------------------

Bundle: 615
Archive-Message-Number: 7737
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 13:03:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Subject: Re:Mass Drivers

To the sentient who asked about the fix for mass driver ranges consider this.

First of all point blank range is the principal factor in determining 
short range.  Given a barrel at 0 degree elevation and about 1.5m above 
the ground.  This is about (0.63)xMV.  Take base short range to be 2/3 of 
this .The next important factor is the frontal area of the round and 
finally the actual muzzle velocity itself.  These are reducing factors.  
After some playing aronund with the equation of motion i came up with the 
following equation for determining a reasonable short range for MD.  Try 
it and see if you like it.  If you want Ill formalize the method and post 
it or send it to who wants it.  
***Note only works for Mass Drivers***

Short Range= 8(MV)/(MV * r )^1/3 
Where MV is muzzle velocity
r is round radius in cm
This reads as 8 times MV divided by (the cube root of (MV times r))

Please try it out and let me know what you think...

Tariq

"I have an intuitive feeling that the Priman serviceman has a much better 
understanding of what this war is all about....."
					General Sylvan C Westmorland
					
 



------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #616: Msgs 7738-7748 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Wed May 25 22:00:04 EDT 1994
Reply-To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 May 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #616: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 616  7738 23-May-1994 KELLOGG@thorin.  Traveller Sale List (complete) << Hi fo
 616  7739 23-May-1994 David Johnson    TNE: Regency and SW Navy and Army << Ge
 616  7740 23-May-1994 David Johnson    TNE: Regency Navy and Rebellion-era Inc
 616  7741 23-May-1994 Steve Charlton/  All: More Marine Stuff << Thanks to Ste
 616  7742 23-May-1994 KenHagler@aol.c  High Guard design <<      The _Rhine_ c
 616  7743 23-May-1994 Steve Charlton/  All: Marines again? Give it a rest! << 
 616  7744 23-May-1994 David Johnson    TNE: Military Forces: 5FW/TCS/POT? << G
 616  7745 23-May-1994 David Johnson    TNE: Sword Worlds Technology << Gentles
 616  7746 23-May-1994 Joseph Heck      STL drives in FFS << In TML Message # 7
 616  7747 23-May-1994 Glenn Goffin     5FW Sword Worlds forces << I've been fo
 616  7748 23-May-1994 Glenn Goffin     Grenadier miniatures sought << A long t

------------------------------

Bundle: 616
Archive-Message-Number: 7738
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 17:30:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: KELLOGG@thorin.uthscsa.edu
Subject: Traveller Sale List (complete)

Hi folx,

Here's a more complete listing of the stuff available:

I apologize to the gdw-beta and pocket groups, but I know of no
other way to reach all the Traveller addicts who have dropped off
the TML.

I have not examined all the articles completely, but most seem to
be in excellent to near mint condition with a very few items
descending into the 'good' condition.

Traveller / 2300AD / Space:1889 SALE

$5 or best offer
     Challenge 25 - 34, 36, 39, 40, 42 - 48

$10 each or best offer:
     Traveller Black Books 1-3
     Traveller Adventure 2:  Research Station Gamma
     Traveller Adventure 3:  Twilight's Peak
     Traveller Adventure 4:  Leviathan
     Traveller Adventure 5:  Trillion Credit Squadron
     Traveller Adventure 6:  Expedition to Zhodane
     Traveller Adventure 8:  Prison Planet
     Traveller Adventure 9:  Nomads of the Ocean World
     Traveller Adventure 10:  Safari Ship
     Traveller Adventure 11:  Murder on Arcturus Station
     Traveller Adventure 12:  Secrets of the Ancients
     Traveller Adventure 13:  Signal GK
     Suppliment 3:  Spinward Marches
     JTAS 6, 9, 10, 12 - 13, 15 - 16, 18 - 21, 23
     Best of the Journal # 1
     Trav Digest: 7 - 10, 14 - 20
     Rescue on Galetea
     Uraqyad'n of the Seven Pillars
     Mountain Environment
     Desert Environment
     Duneraiders
     Grand Census
     Hard Times (coffee stain on cover)
     Sky Raiders Trilogy (complete) [One THE best Trav adventures]

$15 each or best offer
     Megatraveller Ref's guide
     Megatraveller Player's guide
     Megatraveller Imp Encyclopedia
     Rebellion Soucebook

$20 each or best offer
     Alien Module 2:  K'kree
     Alien Module 3:  Vargr
     Alien Module 4:  Zhodani
     Alien Module 5:  Droyne
     Alien Module 6:  Solomani
     Alien Module 7:  Hiver
     Alien Module 8:  Darrian
     MegaTraveller Journal #3
     Alien Realms
     The Traveller Adventure [possibly THE best Trav Adventure]
     Atlas of the Imperium
     Spinward Marches Campaign
     Beltstike
     Tarsus
     Megatraveller World Builder's Guide

(TRAVELLER) 2300AD
$10 or best offer
     Bayern
     Nyotekundo Sourcebook
     Beanstalk
     Aurore Sourcebook
     Mission Arcturus
     Kafer Dawn
     Energy Curve

$15 or best offer
     Colonial Atlas
     Invasion
     Deathwatch Program
     Rotten to the Core
     Earth/Cybertech Sourcebook
     Ranger
     2300AD Boxed edition

SPACE: 1889

$10 or best offer
     Beastmen of Mars
     Caravans of Mars
     Canal Priests of Mars
     Steppelords of Mars
     Tales from the Ether
     More tales from the Ether
     The liftwood conspiracy

$20 or best offer
     Boxed Game:  Sky Galleons of Mars
     Boxed Game:  Beastmen of Mars

Notes:
I am NOT the only person selling these off.  There is no guarantee
that these will be available, so do not send money yet.  At the
moment I am taking resevations only.

In case two people make identical bids for a given item, I will
give priority to those who are making larger orders of stuff.

The above prices include postage for within the US.  I'll need to
include some of the postage costs for orders outside the US.  I
will juggle prices to try to make the increased costs for non-US
citizens as fair as possible.

Of further note:
I will be leaving thursday for Germany.  If anyone wants any of the
above listed stuff, I will have to know by early wednesday morning
at the latest what you want.

I will return from Germany on June 6th.  At that time I will begin
checking who gets what and mailing off orders, but reservations
should be made right away so to insure you'll get what you want at
that time.  Again, as I'm not the only one selling this all, I
don't know how much will be left to offer after I return.

Please act quickly to ensure your orders.

Scott 2G Kellogg
kellogg@thorin.uthscsa.edu
^Z

------------------------------

Bundle: 616
Archive-Message-Number: 7739
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 17:48:57 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE: Regency and SW Navy and Army

Gentlesophonts:

(Trying to post this a second time)

Cynthia Higginbotham <CHiggin@aol.com> writes:

> I cannot believe that the Sword Worlds
> has only 42 total battleships, cruisers, carriers and escorts.

Hey, I was only using the best rationale I could come up with.  Once y'all
get the *TCS* data maybe you can then address what appears to be a 
discrepancy between that and the *RS* `1000 ships per sector'.

> Remember, the Confederation has been in the habit of taking on the 
> Imperium; I suspect they run a much larger navy in proportion to their 
> population than the Imperium does.  Compared to the Navies of 
> independent single worlds, the Imperium has an incredibly low (factor 
> of 100 or more) naval strength in proportion to its population (based 
> on my experience playing TCS).

This is a good point but it really boils down to whether the Sword
Worlds are more like the independent worlds of *TCS* or like the
Imperium doesn't it?

I guess what I'd rather have seen than just comments that this doesn't
make sense to you was some suggested alternative.  I'm not very `attached'
to what I've developed for the Sword Worlds naval forces but a response
that basically just says "Un uh" isn't very interesting *or* useful.

The *RS* says that Imperial naval fleets, which are responsible for a
single subsector, consist of "50-200 ships".  It goes on to explain that
these are battles, cruisers, carriers and some escorts.  Given this I
don't see it as completely unreasonable that the Sword Worlds, drawing
from fewer than a complete subsector's worth of worlds, are only able to
raise 42 ships.  Yes, they may be more militarized (due to their culture
and their Imperial experience) but they are also a frontier that is
more thinly populated than the `average' Imperial subsector.  Sure,
they might have twice or three times that many ships so rather than just
saying the answer *isn't* 42  :-)  please suggest some alternative and
provide a rationale.
  
> I would be hard put to imagine that a world with Regina's yard
> capacity and budget was restricted to 10 overgrown fighters, or that 
> 10 oversized fighters would pose a serious threat to an invading 
> fleet.

It may be hard to imagine but it's consist with canonical material.  I
believe there was some stuff in *JTAS* that referred specifically to the
Regina SDBs as being the 400-ton variety (something in TNS about them
"vectoring toward Assiniboia"?).  It's clear from *5FW* that SDBs depend
upon world population (although I couldn't find a clear pattern and I
played with the values from *5FW* and *S3:SM* for quite a while).  I feel
Imperial military doctrine doesn't call for SDBs to be a significant
factor in a major war - that's the role of the Navy.  SDBs are more for
dealing with raiders and pirates.


Kevin(?) McCarthy <KMCCARTHY@qmgate.osc.hq.nasa.gov> writes:

> If want some basic info and/or help I have a good knowledge of US Army TOE
> and
> some relivent background, 4 years in the 82nd Airborne Div and 8 in the
> Special
> Forces.

Please, give us a sample.

I'd like to point out though that there are two levels of Regency military
development needed here.  One is at the level of the battlefield, which
concerns unit organization, equipment, and the like - tactical issues;
and the other is at the subsector or sector level - resources to support
forces, deployment, command structures - strategic issues.  It seems there
ought to be a great deal of variety at the tactical level (forces to assault
a TL 15 military facility from orbit vs. `peacekeeping' forces on a TL 8
balkanized world) but that there ought to be some coherent structure at
the strategic level (subsector HQs, troop levels, logistical structures, etc.)

Peace,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 616
Archive-Message-Number: 7740
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 18:51:18 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE: Regency Navy and Rebellion-era Incursions

Gentlesophonts:

More *Shall Not Perish* - A TML Regency Sourcebook

Ed Fok <fok@scf.usc.edu> writes:

> Yes but these subsectors also provides a 'Home port' for these fleets.  This
> is particularly important for crew with families and routine logistic support.
> Not to mention that it's a great way for the region to benifite economically
> from these ships.

Yes, this is true, but I'm not sure how this would affect redeployment of
these forces in the face of incursions.  I doubt the Regency admiralty
would permit these forces to be destroyed needlessly trying to defend
their home ports.  Faced with defeat at the hands of the *ihatei* (or 
other foes) I believe they would withdraw and regroup.  Keep in mind
that by TNE many of the `overrun' regions have been recovered and these
fleet units could be redeployed to protect these `gains' once again.

> I vaguely recall reading the same referance.  But considering the mission
> of the Patrol as a centralized fast reaction force these two fleets will be
> the idea core.

Well, maybe, except that an Aslan-crewed force would need ships and equipment
designed for Aslan.  Furthermore, it appears by TNE that the Patrol no
longer exists - it has been `absorbed' by the Quarantine Service.

> Over a period of 70 years I would imagine the incorporated ihatei units be
> fairly evenly distributed throughout the Regency.

This also `dilutes' any internal threat.

> I recall Loren
> Wiseman mentioning the ideal way to deal with the ihatei is to trade land
> grant for service.

Interesting.

> Worlds bounded by these hex were suppose to be under control of the
> Aslan ihatei.
> 
> 1541,1540,1539,1538,1437,1337,1436,1435,1434,

This would include Tarkine 1434, which conflicts with the *Imp Enc* data
I posted.  Good work.

> ,2537,
> 2637,2638,2739,2839,2940,3039,3040

This includes the following worlds in Trin's Veil subsector that I may have
missed when I looked at *IE*:
2537 Dobham
2538 Pyramus
2539 Thisbe
2540 Aramis
2637 Robin
2638 D'Mara
2639 Keltcher

> At the North (Vargr/Coreward) side:
> 
> 2201,2202,2303,2402,2503,2504,2505,2506,2507,2607,2708,2807,2907,2906,
> 3005,

This misses Pysadi 3008 which I cited from the *IE* UWP data.  Clearly the
border was quite fluid during these incursions.

> 3004,3104,3203, (continues in the trailing direction into Gulf
> subsector)

Into Gulf (Deneb M), or maybe Pretoria (Deneb A) instead?


Jeff Zeitlin <jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com>

> Subject: *Shall Not Perish* - RICE Papers
> 
> I decided to pursue the 
> _cultural_ aspects of the Regency. 

This is a great idea, Jeff.  (Although are you sure `rice papers' isn't
a little too tongue-in-cheek? :-)  Can anyone post a RICE paper? 

> Appendix A:  The Extended UWP
> 
> The extended UWP appears as follows:
> 
> Line 1:  Name of planet, followed by subsector name, sector name,
>          and sector coordinates, in parentheses

What with the uncertain timelines and all maybe it would be a good idea
to include a `date' for when the RICE paper was written that ties it to
the source for the basic UWP data?

> For the record, if nobody has guessed, 
> I am using DGP's World Builder's Handbook to flesh out the XUWP


Finally, Steven Gott <sgott@u.washington.edu> asks:

> Aren't UWP's weird?  I mean describing a whole world with 7 digits is 
> amazingly vauge.  Has anybody every worked on a more descriptive system?

Jeff's given you (and all of us) the answer.  Call it kismet.  :-)

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 616
Archive-Message-Number: 7741
From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc
Date: 23 May 94 17:28:11 MS
Subject: All: More Marine Stuff

Thanks to Steve Bonnev, Peter Brenton and David Johnson for the
 responses.  Just to clarify; I have assumed that "Army" (Imperial or
planetary) is a sort of generic term that includes aerospace and wet
naval forces.  However, in situations where Imperial military might
is called for, I think that both of these elements would become
non-issues.

Don't panic yet!  Let me explain my heresy first.  In the case of aerospace
forces, an Imperial task group of whatever size would have some form
of orbital support fire, and perhaps even cover from carrier-based
space fighters.  In addition, high-tech AFVs can be classed as aerospace
fighters in many respects, maybe slower but with far more firepower.

In the case of wet navy forces, surface vessels could be directly engaged 
by orbital support fire, fighters or even grav vehicles.  A PT Boat might
be fast and agile, but would be a slug compared to a TL13+ AFV.  The
submersible threat would be more problematic, but I do remember that
the old "Fighting Ships" booklet and some of the GDW material
relating to the defense of Terra in the Solomani Rim War mentioned
that SDBs and fighters were often based in the oceans.  I would suspect
that such vessels would have some limited combat ability in the sea.  I
think lasers might be a bad idea under water, but penetrating x-ray or
maser weapons would work, as would meson weapons.  Even missiles
(direct impact) would work, with some modifications.   Of course, I was
not a physics major, so you may all stop laughing if I am wrong!  :-(

This does not mean that such vehicles would be the best solution, but
it would certainly be more cost effective to use mission-capable existing
designs than it would be to spend funds on whole new classes of vehicles.
An Imperium-wide military machine does get a tad expensive, so these
concerns are very valid.  Besides, we know the 3rd Imperium must be
cheap or broke, or else they could have afforded a less sequel-like name.

As regards Peter Brenton's ideas on a Marine Expeditionary Division,
I have used a similar concept.  The Imperial marines would certainly
need to field big units (divisions and corps), but a lot of the dirty work
could be done with the clever employment of smaller mobile units.  This
is where the distinction of Fleet Marines vs Line Marines came in.  The
ship-borne Fleet Marines might just be the ship's troops of an Imperial
"ship of the line", or they might be purpose-carried for rapid operations.
I had three classes of such units; Marine Combined Arms Teams (MCATs),
Marine Assault Forces (MAFs) and Marine Assault Brigades (MABs).  

A MCAT would consist of a combined arms company of two rifle platoons
and one armor or mechanized platoon, with a support platoon for
command and heavy weapons.  These would be ad hoc units, formed
from a MAF designated to be broken up into smaller units.   The MAF
could be divided into three MCATs.  The MCAT would be carried on a
5,000 ton starship, which would also have a pair of fighters for aerospace
support.

The MAF would be designed for longer-term field deployments, with
the intention of being at least semi-independent.  The MAF would be made
up of two rifle companies and one armored or mechanized company, with
a weapons company (MRLs) and an artillery battery (2 Meson guns) for 
fire support, an engineer platoon, a medical platoon, a port service platoon
(to handle starport operations at the local captured starport, or at
whatever landing field the engineers built) and a command and general
support company.  The MAF would be carried on a 10,000 ton starship,
which would also carry a squadron of fighters for aerospace support, and
would have orbital support weapons.

The MAB would be especially popular for extended independent
operations.  It would have one armored or mechanized battalion, two
rifle battalions, an artillery company (3 batteries), a drop
infantry/commando company, a cavalry troop (grav bikes & speeders)
an engineer company, a medical company, a port service company and
a reinforced command and general support company.  The MAB would
be carried on a 50,000 tons starship, which would carry a wing (3 
squadrons) of fighters for aerospace support, and would be well
armored and equipped with orbital fire capable weapons.

Of course, the above was using the old High Guard rules, which were
fairly lenient for space requirements.  I would suspect the tonnage of
the ships would be increased by 50% to 100% in MT or FF&S.

This does not reflect the views of my employers.  Neither does the
continuation of this in my next message.  Nuff said.


------------------------------

Bundle: 616
Archive-Message-Number: 7742
From: KenHagler@aol.com
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 21:06:55 EDT
Subject: High Guard design

     The _Rhine_ class Fleet Tender
     
TF-1 Rhine TF-R7313F3-090100-00009-0 MCr40,390.8 100,000 tons
batteries bearing    8   Y  Crew=764.
batteries      A   Z  TL=12.
Low=382. Cargo=2,706. Fuel=33,000. EP=3000. Agility=1. Marines=300.
    Y=35, Z=50
Notes: This is a fleet battle tender. It can carry up to 40,000 tons 
worth of riders--normally four _Berlins_ or two _Provences_. Has a frozen 
watch, and fuel purification plant.

This is the original, and only known, version of the _Rhine_ class. 70 
were built for the NFN, named for rivers on Earth. This class saw action 
in the Old Islands War and the Topas War. Following the Topas War, FAdm 
Connor commented that the ships' substantial missile armament made them 
useful as 'auxiliary battleship' in some situations. In 5629, five of 
these ships were handed over to the Alliance Navy.

Many _Rhines_ were present in the Neubayern system at the beginning of 
the Second Battle of Neubayern, but they successfully escaped to St. 
Genevieve where they joined the Alliance Fleet. Many of these ships no 
longer had riders to carry, as these had been destroyed at Neubayern, and 
were handed over to the Alliance or mothballed.

The fate of the _Rhine_ was unclear since the riders were being phased 
out. The NFN had begun experiments with a class of 1000-ton laser-armed 
gunboats, but the experiment had not yet yielded any concrete results 
when the Imperials arrived. Many _Rhines_ were scrapped or hidden, but 
five were hidden on Sansterre.

When the Cluster Liberation War came, one of the _Rhines_ carried forty 
of the experimental _Thunderbolt_ class PFs, while the others carried 
various riders. Following the War, some of the _Rhines_ were reactivated 
to carry PFs, while others were used to carry disabled ships to shipyards.

Since the Alliance Navy uses _Rhines_ primarily as support ships in 
peaceful areas, those that remain in service are a very low priority for 
upgrades. As of 5650, there are no known refits of the class, although it 
has been rumoured that one ship has been modified for use as a technology 
demonstrator.


------------------------------

Bundle: 616
Archive-Message-Number: 7743
From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc
Date: 23 May 94 17:56:38 MS
Subject: All: Marines again? Give it a rest!

This is a continuation of the other Marines posting from tonight.
Those bored with me, or revolted by all this militaristic talk can
skip to the next item.  The rest of us can then make fun of you at our
leisure  (just kidding)  :-).

To continue:  What good are MCATs, MAFs and MABs?  Remember
that this was all designed for a pre-rebellion campaign.  The Imperium
had its share of enemies, but much of the IN and IMC's job was
internal peacekeeping.  Small firefighting units were a major element
of Imperial military doctrine.

In general, all groups (subsector fleets) would have at least one  MAF
available, either intact or divided and deployed as three MCATs.
The Sector Fleet would have a full corps of Line Marines available at
various bases, with their large troop transports, but the fleet would also
have a number of MABs available.  In unruly sectors, there might be 5 or 6 
MABs, while a small or quiescent sector might only have one or two.

In terms of deployment, I always gave each subsector at least 1 patrol
squadron.  This would consist of about a dozen destroyers or destroyer
escorts, with one escort carrier (a 25,000 ton carrier with a reinforced
wing of fighters) and some form of light cruiser (Gionetti or Azhanti
High Ligtning, depending on my mood).    This squadron would also
have either an intact MAF or 3 MCATs attached to it.  If the subsector
had multiple patrol squadrons (pirates, illegal alien problems),  the MCATs
might be split up among the squadrons or additional MAFs assigned.

The MAF/MCAT would be used in the usual "show the flag" operation
or as a rapid intervention team to defuse critical situations.  Such a 
deployment would also alert one or more of the fleet's MABs.  If a 
situation arose requiring a full MAB, that deployment would alert the
other MABs and the Line Marines in the sector.  If those forces are sent
in, the Sector Duke would probably need to seriously consider
mobilizing the IA.  Since MCATs, MAFs and MABs all have dedicated
transports, they could respond to any situation in a week or two, while
the Line Marines and IA forces are busy locating transports and stuffing
all their gear into cargo modules.  Anybody who has watched the US Army
trying to load one armored battalion onto a train will appreciate just
how long it takes to move such forces, even if some equipment is
pre-packed or prepositioned.

Anybody have any feedback?  Come on in, the water's fine.

PS - Regarding A. Langford's quest for non-metallic guns.  Have a
          look at some books on medieval sieges.  Many of the larger 
          bombards were made of wood, bound together with brass rings.
          I also think I remember a picture of a hand gun from that period
          made of similar materials.

PPS - This month's Popular Science has an article on Fuel Cells, which
             have caused me a certain amount of grief in my current TNE
             campaign.  One problem; the technology involves hydrogen
             and oxygen freed from water or methane, but FF&S says that
             fuel cells use hydrocarbons (gasoline to us non-chemists).  Can
             anybody shed some light on this?

Again, none of the above reflects the views of my employers.  No way,
no how.


------------------------------

Bundle: 616
Archive-Message-Number: 7744
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 20:16:02 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE: Military Forces: 5FW/TCS/POT?

Gentlesophonts:

The plot thickens (or the arguement broils?):

PBJuzyk <PSUAlum@aol.com> writes:

> As a Latter Day Traveller with access to *PoT* info detailing the
> military assets of a world can be found on pages 95-97 of that book
> 
> These forces are broken into four branches: wet navy, air force (inc.
> orbital & sub-orbit craft), space force, and ground forces.
> 
> Once the number of personnel in each force is established the equipment
> is determined bearing in mind only a small percentage comprise the
> actual crew with the remainder support & logistics.
> 
> These numbers seem skewed when put into use, for example:
> 
> Gram (pop 6,000,000,000; TL 11)
> 2,250,000 personnel, 750 major ships, 2250 regular ships
> 
> Someone tell me my calculations are off!!


Steven M Bonneville <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu> writes:

> Since people originally asked about the composition of the Sword
> Worlds military, here's the lowdown from 5FW:
> 
> Note the paucity of forces available to the SW government.  It
> would seem that they aren't really prepared for much of an
> offensive campaign. 
> 
> Seditious TNE influence:  by using _PoT_ rules in a wildly 
> inappropriate way, estimated armed forces from UWP.  Ground force
> seems a bit low, but probably explainable by needing more hands 
> in space in a pre-Collapse professional military.  The SW seem to be
> a naval power, anyway.

This is some good work.  Thanks folks.

It seems we have a clear conflict here between rules sets.  The *5FW*
shows much smaller forces than both *TCS* and *POT* suggest is available.
Nevertheless, *5FW* is the only source of `official' naval and army
forces.  On the other hand, the *POT* rules meet the `most recent' criteria
*and* seem to be more comprehensive - dealing with space and planetary
forces.

The question to be resolved seems to be how do were rectify the current
rules (or *TCS* for that matter) when they suggest a world like Tizon in
the Sword Worlds could have dominated the entire battle field in the 5FW?

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 616
Archive-Message-Number: 7745
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 21:47:57 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: TNE: Sword Worlds Technology

Gentlesophonts:

The Hans and David show continues.  :-)

Hans Rancke <rancke@diku.dk> writes:

> I think we've lost track of the original question.

Probably.  :-)

> As I recall it (correct
> me if I'm wrong) you started out by asking how come Gram was the leader of
> the Sword Worlds when Sacnoth was so much more powerful. 

Yes, I think that's it.

> I assumed that
> you were talking about powerful in the naval sense (since a TL or two
> dosen't mean nearly as much as the population size in the economic sense).

Okay, here's where I diverge.  I was thinking more along the lines of
`economic' strength, which I agree is tied to population, than mere naval
strength.  Keep in mind that Gram and Sacnoth are on the same order of
population (6 billion and 3 billion, respectively).  Narsil is at 20
billion but it's two TLs below Sacnoth.  Still, in a feudal technocracy,
one tech level is going to make a *tremendous* amount of difference.  (It's
like the difference between Japan and Mexico if Japan's economic power 
gave it corresponding political power in Mexico.)

> Since then I've tried to defend the notion that the economic cycles are
> _possible_. I don't say that they definitely must be, that there are no
> other possibilities. Just that they are perfectly possible. I don't try
> to prove that they exist, only that they could exist. OK? Nor did I use
> them to explain the disparity of different TLs.

I believe I've accepted that these cycles *might* exist and that if they
do they would explain Gram's leadership of the Confederation.  My concern
has been that I can't see what *causes* these `techno-economic' cycles
(since we've agreed they have no `real world' parallel) and that I don't
see how they explain the tech level disparities.

> >>(Remember, I also assume that a world can 
> >>maintain ships and equipment at least two levels above their own TL)
> > 
> >I'm not sure this is really relevant to our discussion

No, sorry, I meant I didn't think *my* rebuttal was relevant!  :-)  I get
the point you were making which was why I said:

> >Of course, you're going to say she can because her world was at TL 8 when
> >she went to trade school two decades ago.  :-)

I just disagree with you though when you say:

> But my whole point is that they _will_ have much more than a clue. The
> knowledge is there even if the industry isn't.

I feel that it takes more than just knowledge.  I don't care how much you
know about internal combustion engines, if you can't refine oil to make
gasoline and you don't have a continental highway network you're going
to have a rough time getting your Yugo or Hyundai from Houston to Detroit.
The knowledge may be there on a lower tech world but the corresponding
infrastructure isn't.

> No, it proves that the authors of a board game have different priorities
> from the authors of a role-playing game.

Now wait a minute!  :-)  What happened to:

> I really think you should try to make up an explanation that fits the known
> facts rather than to make up an explanation and change the facts to fit them.

And:

> IMO one should prefer
> the one that corresponds most closely to GDWs version.

Please, Hans, I've got a smile on my face right now and there is absolutely
no malice in it.  I'm enjoying the living daylights out of our discussions.

> Not in terms of the economy according to _Trillion Credit Squadron_. The
> GPP (Gross Planetary Product) of Gram is close to that of Sacnoth and that
> of Narsil is a lot bigger.

Well, I think we're beginning to see there are some serious conflicts
between *5FW*, *TCS* and the TNE military forces per *POT*.

> The troops are marked with TL: One brigade from
> Gram is TL 11 and one from Joyeuse is TL 10.

Hmmm, Steve Bonneville has reported:

> Note that Gram is stated to be TL 10!

Looks like there is a discrepancy *within* *5FW* between the counters (TL 11)
and the map board (TL 10).  Is this the case?

More Hans:

> The whole force is much less than the total available Sword World forces;
> the attack on the Imperium appears to be a secondary effort. Most of 
> their prime units must have gone against the Darrians. Any Gram TL 12
> units could be there.

Well, maybe, but this doesn't agree with the campaign as it was reported in
*Spinward Marches Campaign*.  According to *SMC*, the Narsil Fleet patrolled
the Darrian border (and eventually lost the disputed worlds in Querion to
the Darrians) while the Sacnoth Fleet patrolled the rimward border and
was eventually destroyed by the Imperial 214th Fleet attacking from Glisten
and occupying what became the Border Worlds.  Note the Narsil Fleet was
deployed against the lower tech Darrians rather than the Imperial Navy.

> So what the Traveller SWs owe to Piper is actually little more than
> the concept of the sword names.

Well, not exactly.  There are other similarities.  The whole feudal
technocracy thing.  The *JTAS* article on the former Sword Worlds naval
captain who's spouse/fiance was killed on their wedding day so she sold
the family estate to buy a ship and chase the killers - nothing more
than Lucas Trask in a dress!

> The societies are different in a number of
> ways too (Women accepted in 'male' roles for instance).

I think this `liberation' issue is merely a matter of when Piper was 
writing (early 60's) versus when GDW was creating Traveller (late 70's).
Remember, the GDW material makes a big deal of the `mis-treatment' of
women in the Sword Worlds.  As Steve Bonneville points out:

>  The ranking flag, Riksdattar, is
>  much like Santanocheev.  [Incidentally, if her name is formed
>  in the Icelandic manner, Riksdattar is a woman.  Just an
>  observation for the SW culture watchers.]

I think there's a great deal of similarity between Piper's Sword Worlds
and GDW's Sword Worlds on the issue of how women are portrayed/treated.

>  _Cats&Rats_ 

You mean *Solomani and Aslan*?  Ouch!  :-)

> says that they left
> Terra in -420. That they used 29 years to get to the Spinward Marches
> implies a desire to get _really_ away from it all. My interpretation is
> that they were losers in a civil war in the Old Earth Union. Not official.

This sounds like a good rationalization.

> That's just what I said. It's two different and independent bits of my
> argument. The disparate TLs indicates a close tie to economy. Economy can
> (and often does) fluctuate. Ergo TLs can fluctuate. If you postulate that 
> Sword World economy dosen't fluctuate you get stable TLs. If you postulate 
> that it does you get unstable TLs.

Okay, but why suppose these still-unexplained cycles when they're not needed
to explain the disparity?  If the different economies are merely at
different stages of development (with higher TL being an indication of
greater `advancement') there is no need of these cycles.  Then Zhodani aid,
already well established in the canonical material, explains why Gram has
lead the Confederation when one would expect more advanced (higher tech)
Sacnoth to do so.

> Certainly. The stable economy theory. But one set of UPPs isn't enough to
> say anything one way or the other about this.

Ah, but what about *all* those other worlds *outside* the Sword Worlds 
that aren't experiencing these cycles?  What `facts' suggest the Sword
Worlds should be different from the rest of the universe?

> several sets of UPPs for the Sword Worlds, but since they have world
> populations fluctuating by bilions within a decade

Billions?  Really?  Can you cite the sources?  This is interesting from
our allegiance/borders viewpoint too.

> Are the US and Europe and Japan different countries? Yet their economies
> are tightly intertwined.

No, they're not tighly entwined politically *and* economically like the
case would be in a feudal technocracy.  A better example would be, say,
California and, heck, all the other states west of the Rockies put
together.  When California wants federal water in Montana, it gets it.
Largely because of it's greater population (which also gives it a larger
economy) which gives it greater political power in the representative
democracy we have here.

> >If the economy is interstellar then political power in interstellar...
> 
> I don't see how that follows.

By definition.  In a feudal technocracy, economic power translates *directly*
into political power.  You get to be `king' because you control the largest
share of stock.

> > Sounds like the Japanese *keiritsu* to me.
> 
> Sounds like a slightly stronger European Union to me.

Yes, it does, except that in Europe representatives are chosen through a
representative democracy that places power in the hands of individuals
equally while in a feudal technocracy (and in the *keiritsu*) those
representatives are chosen by shareholders that place power in the hands
of the owners of production.

> >>Nowadays they _do_ have a politically stable Confederation.
> > 
> >Doesn't sound like it from the above quote.
> 
> Perhaps not, but it sure sound like it from the length of time the Gram
> Coalition has lasted.

I agree.  I would explain this apparent conflict (it's a fact Gram has led
for a *long* time but it's someone's opinion that the Sworld Worlds are
`unstable') as more cleverly-disguised Imperial propaganda.

[Has anyone realized how convenient this has become for GDW?  By clearly
placing some misleading information in published works (like the library
data in the *Imperial Encyclopedia* that was identified as having a SMART
bias) they (and we) can explain away just about any inconsistency at a
latter date.  Clever, or just lucky?]

> I think that is wrong. Whatever the age of an institution, the people who
> run it usualy thinks in terms of their own generation.

Good point.

> The pacification campaigns took place before even the Ante-bellum period of
> the Imperium. The 3rd frontier War took place after the Civil War and the
> Psionic suppressions. I find no problem with accepting that Imperial
> attitudes were different in those two periods.

Another good point, but it still begs the question of the Imperium not
`dealing with' the Sword Worlds.

> I must have a different definition of 'intergration' than you. I think these
> worlds all produce whatever is most profitable at any given time and sell it
> to anyone who will buy. That's not intergration in my book.

If I'm Freya Freighters of Sacnoth and I buy a controlling interest in
Loki Levitation of Gram I have not only gained economic influence on Gram
but *political* power as well.  Since, at TL 12, I'm clearly the strongest
economic power then I'm going to gain more and more of this sort of
control.  As soon as the King Harald of Sacnoth (thanks, Cynthia) buys
a controlling interest in the holdings of King Angus of Gram, Angus 
becomes Harald's *vassal*!  That's how a feudal technocracy works.

Some really good stuff, Hans.  BTW, I think you've got the *ihatei* situation
pegged exactly.

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 616
Archive-Message-Number: 7746
From: ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu (Joseph Heck)
Subject: STL drives in FFS
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 23:38:47 -0500 (CDT)

In TML Message # 7732, you said:
> 
> Ok, I take back what I said about proofreading, here's a *real*
> doozy....
> 
> [bits and explanations deleted]
> 
>                   THRUST       FUEL USE  ...fuel per ton of thrust
>  Daedalus drive: 1.5 ton   0.00050 ton/hr.     0.000334 ton/hr
>  Fusion rocket   9.0 ton   0.00035 ton/hr.     0.000039 ton/hr
>  HEPlaR drive:  33.4 ton   0.02917 ton/hr.     0.000873 ton/hr
> 
> [understandable rants deleted]
> 
> This also brings up another interesting point.  It seems to me
> that even accounting for the extra mass needed in the motor of
> a fusion rocket, it is more efficient than a HEPlaR drive.  This
> suggests that there may be an advantage to using fusion rocket
> designs in some cases on a military vessel, perhaps as a second
> drive system.
> 
> Any comments?  Am I reading this wrong?

Hi Steve,

I wish I could say you are... but. You aren't. When GDW-beta list was
playing around with the pre-release stuff we had on FFS (precious little)
it became clear VERY quickly that the most effecient drive that still
fit within reality was the Fusion Rocket - and aside from it's nasty side
effects is a beautiful deep-space drive. I designed a number of ships
from that system, and planetary landings aside, Fusion is the best bet.

- -- 
 joe                          (314) 882-5000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    University of Missouri - Columbia  
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 imprenetrable fog!" -- Calvin
 <A HREF="http://www.phlab.missouri.edu/ccjoe_www/ccjoe.html">ccjoe</A>

------------------------------

Bundle: 616
Archive-Message-Number: 7747
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 23:22:59 -0700
From: Glenn Goffin <ggoffin@igc.apc.org>
Subject: 5FW Sword Worlds forces

I've been following the Sword Worlds discussion, but somewhat distractedly
as work carries me to the midwest and Oregon for three days a week lately.
So I have gotten behind on the mailing list (portable computer? at my job? 
ha ha ha), and I'm not sure that the counters from Fifth Frontier War are 
still needed.  Anyway, I have them.  Please email me and tell me what you need
to know exactly (if you send a separate email, I'll notice it--my apologies
for requesting special treatment; it'll go away in about a month, I think), and
I'll post it to the TML.

------------------------------

Bundle: 616
Archive-Message-Number: 7748
Date: Mon, 23 May 1994 23:26:00 -0700
From: Glenn Goffin <ggoffin@igc.apc.org>
Subject: Grenadier miniatures sought

A long time ago, Grenadier produced four lines of 25mm lead miniatures for
Traveller.  They were Alien Mercenaries, Alien Animals, Imperial Marines, and
Adventurers (I'm fairly confident that these are the right names).  I'm
looking for them, and will pay a reasonable price.  Does anyone have any
leads?                      

Thanks for your help.

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #617: Msgs 7749-7759 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Wed May 25 22:00:04 EDT 1994
Reply-To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 May 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #617: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 617  7749 24-May-1994 JSHiggin@aol.co  Various... << Annoying statements on a 
 617  7750 24-May-1994 CHiggin@aol.com  TCS... << From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nas
 617  7751 24-May-1994 scs@vectis.demo  Non-Humans in Traveller << One of the t
 617  7752 24-May-1994 PSUAlum@aol.com  TNE: GARNETT GUN << I wrote:
 617  7753 24-May-1994 "Tariq M. Rashi  RE:More NPCs << As promised here are th
 617  7754 24-May-1994 KenHagler@aol.c  High Guard ships << When I posted the _
 617  7755 24-May-1994 David Johnson    All: Imperial Propaganda: Sword Worlds 
 617  7756 23-May-1994 Jeff Zeitlin     74:18/7716 Kirk and McGyv << Subject: 7
 617  7757 24-May-1994 David Johnson    Admin: TML Etiquette << Gentlesophonts:
 617  7758 24-May-1994 George Herbert   Steve Higginbotham's TCS campaign... <<
 617  7759 25-May-1994 Derek Wildstar   Re: TNE: GARNETT GUN << In Bun#617,AMN 

------------------------------

Bundle: 617
Archive-Message-Number: 7749
From: JSHiggin@aol.com
Date: Tue, 24 May 94 10:17:25 EDT
Subject: Various...

Annoying statements on a variety of subjects:

Mark Cook:

> Old style rebreathers used CaCO3 to absorb CO2.  Modern rebreathers
> crack the CO2 electrically and recycle the O2.  This is the same
> method used aboard nuclear subs.

	Interesting idea, but neither of the submarines I was on did this. 
We just threw the CO2 overboard, and got our O2 by splitting seawater.


Steven M Bonneville:

> Per cubic meter of maneuver drive: (in metric tons)
 
>                  THRUST       FUEL USE  ...fuel per ton of thrust
> Daedalus drive: 1.5 ton   0.00050 ton/hr.     0.000334 ton/hr
> Fusion rocket   9.0 ton   0.00035 ton/hr.     0.000039 ton/hr
> HEPlaR drive:  33.4 ton   0.02917 ton/hr.     0.000873 ton/hr

	Someone (specifically, Steven Bonneville) has misread those tables. 
Fuel usage per ton of thrust is actually:
 
                 THRUST       FUEL USE  ...fuel per ton of thrust
Daedalus drive: 1.5 ton   0.00050 ton/hr.     0.000334 ton/hr
Fusion rocket   9.0 ton   0.00035 ton/hr.     0.00035 ton/hr
HEPlaR drive:  33.4 ton   0.02917 ton/hr.     0.000873 ton/hr

> The Daedalus drive is an order of magnitude *worse* in fuel 
> efficiency than the conventional fusion rocket!!!  Combined
> with its' worse thrust-to-mass ratio, the engine is fairly
> worthless.

	Well, no.  Not really.  Actually, in terms of fuel usage, it is
SLIGHTLY better than the fusion rocket.  But it will never be used if
fusion rockets are available, unless you can live with small
fractional-G acceleration.


> This suggests that there may be an advantage to using fusion rocket
> designs in some cases on a military vessel, perhaps as a second
> drive system.  

	I thought of this a while back.  Military vessels designed by me (as
theoretical exercises, since we don't use TNE rules) have fusion rockets
INSTEAD of Heplar.


Tariq M. Rashid:

> First of all point blank range is the principal factor in determining 
> short range.  Given a barrel at 0 degree elevation and about 1.5m
> above the ground.

	I wish that whichever idiot gave GDW that definition of "point-blank
range" had kept his ignorant mouth shut...
	"point-blank range" has absolutely NOTHING to do with height of the
gun above the ground.  It has much more to do with the little known
detail that bullets, upon leaving the barrel of any gun, rise above the
line of the barrel by a small amount.  Point-blank range is the range
that the bullet has dropped BACK down to the line of the barrel after
that rise.
	Consider this, btw.  If you use GDW's definition of point-blank
range, then almost by definition, an anti-aircraft gun of a given muzzle
velocity will have a longer point-blank range than an anti-tank gun of
the same muzzle velocity (the anti-tank gun sits low to the ground
(maybe 2 ft up), while the AA gun sits higher up (typically 5-8 ft, back
when we built AA guns))...


David Johnson:

> The *RS* says that Imperial naval fleets, which are responsible for a
> single subsector, consist of "50-200 ships".  It goes on to explain
> that these are battles, cruisers, carriers and some escorts.  Given
> this I don't see it as completely unreasonable that the Sword Worlds,
> drawing from fewer than a complete subsector's worth of worlds, are
> only able to raise 42 ships.  Yes, they may be more militarized (due
> to their culture and their Imperial experience) but they are also a
> frontier that is more thinly populated than the `average' Imperial
> subsector.  Sure, they might have twice or three times that many ships
> so rather than just saying the answer *isn't* 42  :-)  please suggest
> some alternative and provide a rationale.

	More thinly populated???  The SW have around 30 gigapeople in them,
all reasonably high tech. Regina subsector can only claim about 7
gigapeople, Rhylanor about 25, Vilis less than 10...
	Plus, of course, the 50-200 ships per subsector is ridiculously low
BY TCS STANDARDS.  In my game, Neubayern had several thousand warships,
New Colchis had more like 10,000 ships.  All the Islands together
amounted to about the resource base of the SW, and collectively, they
could muster over 1000 warships in the 50,000T+ range, plus a few more
thousand in the 10,000-50,000T range, plus another bunch in the
1000-10,000T range, plus fighters (a total of over 100,000 fighters in
the Islands).
	Besides all that, if you assume only 40-odd major Sword Worlds
warships, then the SW are in the same position the Islands were in when
the game began: any squadron of Tigresses could beat up their Naval
Forces all by itself.  Frankly, any single Tigress could beat up the SW
Fleet if it is only 40 major combatants...


> It may be hard to imagine but it's consist with canonical material.

	Do yourself a favour, and learn to ignore canonical material when it
is clearly pretty stupid.  Regina may have had 10 400T SDBs, but if it
did, ask yourself "Why?"
	There is no military use for them (any of Neubayern's Flower class
escorts (of which there were more than a thousand) could take all ten
SDBs at once.
	There is no real civilian use for them (other than to let pirates
run amok through the Regina system) - remember that Regina orbits a gas
giant, and has a HUGE jump-limit to patrol - thye couldn't patrol it
adequately with ten of ANYTHING, much less SDBs that are no match for a
well-equipped pirate.
	Customs cutters?  They'd need more than ten, given that large
jump-limit, unless Regina has civilian traffic amounting to no more than
30-40 ships per day arriving/departing.  And if that is all the civilian
traffic Regina has, then Regina's starport must be smaller than the port
of New Orleans...


> It's clear from *5FW* that SDBs depend upon world population (although
> I couldn't find a clear pattern and I played with the values from
> *5FW* and *S3:SM* for quite a while).

	There were designer's notes for FFW in one of the Journals...


> Imperial military doctrine doesn't call for SDBs to be a significant
> factor in a major war - that's the role of the Navy.  SDBs are more
> for dealing with raiders and pirates.

	Au contraire, mon vieux...Impy doctrine (which is frankly idiotic)
assumes that the battle for the gas giant between the enemy fleet and
your SDBs will be the crucial part of the defense of any system.  It is
SUPPOSED to prevent the enemy from refueling before your Fleet can reach
the GG where they arrived, thus allowing you to pound them into bloody
paste before they can escape.
	Admittedly, this isn't worth a pile of warm spit in terms of Naval
Doctrine.  I point out, for those who are interested, that in only ONE
case in my TCS game did a Fleet jump in to a gas giant, rather than
arriving at the 100 diameter limit of the main world.  And that one case
came because the attacker wanted the enemy to know he was coming, so as
to cause the enemy to be deceived as to the objective of the attack.
	In all other cases, the ships jumped in using drop tanks (and aso
arrived with enough fuel to leave, if they had to), and arrived at the
100 diameter limit, thus allowing the target only an hour or two warning
before the attack began for a response to be formed...


> Yes, this is true, but I'm not sure how this would affect redeployment
> of these forces in the face of incursions.  I doubt the Regency
> admiralty would permit these forces to be destroyed needlessly trying
> to defend their home ports.  Faced with defeat at the hands of the
> *ihatei* (or other foes) I believe they would withdraw and regroup. 

	Faced with defeat by Ihatei?!?   What a concept!!!  I suppose
Regina's ten 400T SDBs might be faced with defeat by Ihatei, if the
Ihatei could get in that far, but I find it hard to believe that any
_important_ Impy force could be defeated by the Ihatei...
	Can someone out there design a TL14 ship of no more than 30,000T
that can fight off an attack by an Impy BatRon as long as there are at
least 100 of them present?  I admit that using TNE rules, this is much
more possible than it was under either HG or MT, but it is still pretty
unlikely...

				---Steve



------------------------------

Bundle: 617
Archive-Message-Number: 7750
From: CHiggin@aol.com
Date: Tue, 24 May 94 10:27:22 EDT
Subject: TCS...

From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)

>> I would be hard put to imagine that a world with Regina's yard
>> capacity and budget was restricted to 10 overgrown fighters, or that
>> 10 oversized fighters would pose a serious threat to an invading
>> fleet.
>It may be hard to imagine but it's consist with canonical material.  I
>believe there was some stuff in *JTAS* that referred specifically to the
>Regina SDBs as being the 400-ton variety (something in TNS about them
>"vectoring toward Assiniboia"?).  

    One of the things that happened after High Guard came out was a 
major change in the sizes and numbers of Naval vessels cruising about. 
For pre-High Guard CT, 10 400-ton SDBs WAS a major defense force -- 
and a 400-ton patrol cruiser was a real warship, and the Kinunir 
(1200-tons) WAS a Cruiser capable of subduing anything in the 
subsector.  Post-High Guard and "Supplement 9: Fighting Ships" (the 
REAL "Fighting Ships"), 10 SDBs was a joke, not a force.  The Kinunir 
becomes a light escort, comparable (loosely) with the Chyrsanthemum 
and Fer-de-Lance class escorts.  If you are playing in a High 
Guard/MT/TNE universe, do not take anything from early JTAS or very 
early supplements about Naval strength as "canonical".  The "canonical" 
material isn't self-consistent; it was composed over at least two 
different "world-views".  You have to decide which world-view you are 
using, and throw out the material that is inconsistent with that view.

    I have been assuming a post-High Guard+ worldview.  It is 
possible, even likely, that the apparent inconsistency between TCS 
strengths and 5FW counters relates to the shift in Naval strength 
between pre-and post-High Guard.  Did 5FW come out before or after 
High Guard?  

>It's clear from *5FW* that SDBs depend
>upon world population (although I couldn't find a clear pattern and 
>I played with the values from *5FW* and *S3:SM* for quite a while).
>I feel Imperial military doctrine doesn't call for SDBs to be a
>significant factor in a major war - that's the role of the Navy.
>SDBs are more for dealing with raiders and pirates.

    I believe that the WAR!  issue of JTAS had designer's notes for 
5FW, and how to derive your own defense batallions and SDB strengths.  
Unfortunately, I don't have it with me today to look up.  

    Many aspects of Imperial doctrine appear to have be thought up by 
someone who never played a TCS (or similar Naval warfare) campaign; 
they just don't work in practice.  For instance, after some TCS 
campaigning, it turns out that the Battlerider/Battleship controversy 
is a non-issue:  if your enemy does not have meson weapons, use 
Battleships, because the jump drive allows you to get your expensive 
hull and jump drive away when your guns and M-drive have been 
crippled, and if he does have meson weapons, use Battleriders because 
a meson hit is just as likely to cripple the J-drive as any other 
system.  With the battleships just as likely to be lost as the 
battlerider, the battlerider's ability to carry more weaponry, 
screens, armor and fighters makes a difference.  Proper doctrine 
reduces the vulnerability of the tender -- it should either be fully 
combat capable, or stay the hell away from the battlefield.  

    I think that real Imperial Naval officers, who have 10,000 years 
of space combat experience to draw on, would use doctrines based on 
that experience, that make sense; therefore, I regard most of what was 
said regarding Imperial Naval doctrine in JTAS and Challenge as so 
much hogwash.  


                        -- Cynthia Higginbotham


    "Q:  What is the difference between the BATF and the Gestapo?"
    "A:  BATF agents speak English."




------------------------------

Bundle: 617
Archive-Message-Number: 7751
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 19:06:38 GMT0BST1,M3.4.0/02:00,M10.4.0/02:00
From: scs@vectis.demon.co.uk
Reply-To: scs@vectis.demon.co.uk
Subject: Non-Humans in Traveller

One of the things which makes SF for me is Non-Humans. Despite the
number of pre-generated non-human races in Traveller (Vargr, Droyne,
Hivers, K'kree, Aslan) there seems to be no establised method of
rolling your own. Do the members of the list have any hints, tips or
suggestions on how to create a believable non-human race, for use as
either PCs or NPCs? Are there any favourites out there from the
annals of Traveller history?

P.S. Has anyone else noticed the similarities between the RCES
Marines as portrayed in Smash & Grab and the MI from Heinlein's
Starship Troopers?

P.P.S. Being a relative newcomer to the list, I would value the
input of those who chose to leave the list when TNE was launched, so
I vote for the 'temporary two lists' idea. (I have CT, MT and TNE.)

Stuart.



- ---
scs@vectis.demon.co.uk


------------------------------

Bundle: 617
Archive-Message-Number: 7752
From: PSUAlum@aol.com
Date: Tue, 24 May 94 17:13:16 EDT
Subject: TNE: GARNETT GUN

I wrote:

When the first Antiarmor "Cruch Guns" were brought back the the worlds
> 
of the Reformation Coalition an arms company on Aurora, de Corbin Arms
> 
Company (dCA Co.) obtained a few and reversed engineered them, 

[deletia]


> 

Any suggestions for a name for this gun?  

John Bogan <john.bogan@asb.com> replied to me:

The Garnett

That gun was designed by Guy Garnett (Wildstar@quark.qrc.com), longtime 
TML member and coordinator of the TNE-Pocket sublist and admin of the GDW-
Beta sublist.  

GDW-Beta was formed to test some of the design sequences in FF&S, and 
Guy tried to re-create a real-life Soviet anti-tank rifle from the 1930's (PK
something)
using the small arms design rules.  Upon seeing the result, he called it the
"poor man's fusion gun".  POT describes its use EXACTLY as he envisioned.


Guy also has a regular column, "House Rules", in _The Traveller Chronicle_,
a new Traveller magazine now gearing up for its fifth issue.


I say give credit where credit is due.  The Garnett Gun it is.

PBJuzyk


------------------------------

Bundle: 617
Archive-Message-Number: 7753
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 16:29:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Subject: RE:More NPCs

As promised here are the rest of the NPCs I said that I would post.  As 
before the stats ate in GDW house form but common sense conversions are 
easy enough.  Once again some names have been shuffled for security 
purposes..

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Iwo Lyon				Born 1180  Giga, Frontier
Str-7  Agl-A  Con-8  Int-6  Edu-4  Chr-5  Soc-4
Iwo was born and grew up on the planet Giga which is located in the 
region of sparse stellar population at the edge of NeoSol subsector known 
as the frontier.  When he was 12 raiders? or a scout force from an 
mini empire across the frontier raided his Windrider village.  Led by a 
man known only as Gushmegne, they massacred almost everyone they could 
find including Iwo's father, mother and brothers.  In 1193 he was found 
by a NeoSol Federation Scout wandering through the desert regions of Giga 
in a catatonic state.  The scout took him in and carried him back to his 
home on the planet Aurigae.  The trauma on Giga had awakened Iwo's 
nascent Psi abilities and contact with a secret order on Aurigae served 
to develop them further.  The members of this order are the gaurdians of 
a merging of Psi Abilities and Martial Arts known simply as The Way.  
There are 5 facets of the way that are inherent in an individual just as 
Psionic abilities are inherent.  Trauma and training awaken them.  When 
the Union of Senled invaded Nemo in 1198 his adoptive family was killed 
by a ballistic missile attack(conventional) on their home city.  This 
trauma awakened the second way in Iwo.  After this he joined the crew of 
a far trader owned and operated by BJ Eyzaguirre.  He has used this 
position to smuggle TL 10 weapons to the TL 6,7 Nemon National League.  
His life filled with tradgedy he no longer smiles and always has a look 
on intensity on his face.  He has devoted himself to practicing the two 
Ways he knows and seeks adventure to awaken the others.  He also will 
look for ways to assist the Nemon National League and hates any 
representative of the Union of Senled.  

Iwos conventional skills should be appropriate to a junior spacehand.
Added to these skills
UAMA-6 Stealth-3  Riding-2

****Iwo only has experience with the first two ways****

The Five Facets of the Way are
1)The Way of the Shining Path( Hand Strike -4)
  Microtelekenesis combined with hand strikes, gives a hand strike some  
  penetration ability.  Say Pen of 2 if it penetrates then does full 
damage, otherwise no damage.

2)Way of the Breeze (Enhanced Stealth treat as Stealth-8)
This way enables the user to move about being very difficult to see or hear

3)Way of the Comet (Super Speed)
Using teleportation this allows super fast movement.  Say Psi Level * 
10m/turn) 

4)The Way of the Hurricane (TK Blast)
This is simply an area effect TK Blast of great power.  Car flipper, wall 
buckler at higher levels.

5) The Awareness of Reality (Ultimate Way--Masters Only)
The Awareness of reality is the most difficult and possibly the most 
powerful way.  It enables the practitioner to "fold" things in and out of 
reality.  It is in a sense sort of a PsiTransfer that functions as a 
black globe sort of thing.  It absorbs energy impacting it (up to some 
max) and the user can store this energy of short periods of time then 
dumping it into his or her own Psi based attacks, actions etc.  I havent 
quite figured out how to formulate this but suggestions are welcome.  
Just like a globe it can be overloaded and prevents communication across 
it.  This included Psi communication?  

Each way requires one combat action to activate and pulls from some pool 
of UAMA and Psi-Level.  I havent had the chance to really sit down and 
work this out in detail but I have the main idea pretty much to my 
satisfaction.  I think that I havent introduced anything in direct conflict 
with any era of traveller.  It certainly adds an element of space opera 
to the universe.  Can you imagine Masters of the Way battling it out in 
some high port while the PCs get caught in the middle.  I know some of 
you might say I should play champions for this but as I said there is no 
direct conflict with the Traveller Universe here and I think it adds to 
my campaign (at least in my head).

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Solon Maghib				Born 50,1168 Prima
8-9-A-9-8-4 Soc 4
Navigation-2	Slug Rifle-5	Slug Pistol-2	Energy Rifle-1
Zero Gee-3	Commo-2		Computer-2	UAMA-4
Farming-1	Small Blade-2	Observation-1	Trauma Aid-2
Env Suit-3	Act/Bluff-1	Pilot I/G-2	Language-1
Willpower-3	Grnd Tac-2	Survival-3	Interrogation-2
Sculpture-2

Solon Maghib enlisted in the Navy at the age of 17 where he soon 
expressed an interest and aptitude for the Special forces.  He joined the 
SPACR (Space Planetary and Atmospheric Combat Regiment) at the end of his 
first term and distinguished himself.  At the end of his 2nd term he was 
selected to attend OCS.  Graduating from there he was soon promoted to 
the rank of Sub-Lt.  Much of his activity is classified but he did 
recieve a commendation for his part in closing down the Gamma project.  A 
geneering experiment initiated by a private consortiun whose subjects 
where kidnapped from low tech worlds.  During his 4th term his family was 
killed in the well known Icarus incident where the Destroyer Icarus 
vented its thrusters inside a docking bay killing 518 people. (See Ammel 
Brodrig)  He left the Navy at the end of this term and move to Enope 
where he spent his time carving stone and wood, living off of the land.  
While on one of his treks through the wilderness of Enope he discovered a 
diamond.  It was not long after that he was framed for murders of two 
junior constables.  The local  Chief Constable Ulysses Stark was on the case 
and he discovered evidenve that Solon did not commit the murder.  It was 
Aaron Nessus, the son of a man who was regionally(planetwise) powerful.  
The Constable came upon Nessus holding Solon at gunpoint bragging about 
how he framed him for the murders.  When U Stark ordered him to drop the 
weapon Nessus instead aimed for the Constable, He was shot dead by The 
Constable U Stark.  Far from being heros both Solon and U Stark found 
life very difficult on Enope after that.  When given the oppurtunity to 
leave Solon joined Amara Adan of NeoSol Systems Corp and her Corporate 
Action Team.  

From an interview of Solon Maghib by a local news service on Enope

For some reason people have this concept that the SPACR drops from orbit 
on top of the enemy and starts blazing away. Wrong.  Thats very unlikely 
and happens only when something has gone very wrong.  We are much more 
likely to spend two weeks hiding in the rafters of some warehouse on a 
clandestine spotting and observation mission.  You never know when 
there's one of us around.  Could be one reading this over your shoulder 
right now.  Don't look! too late you're DEAD!  They teach us so much, but 
they don't teach us how to cope back in the real world.  When my family 
was killed in the Icarus incident.  I broke from what I thought was 
real.  I left the Navy and moved to Enope where I formed reality from 
stone and wood through sculpture...

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats gonna have to be it for today, Ill try to get the other 3 or 4 on 
tomorrow.

Tariq

"We found this book in some old building on one of those pigpen worlds on 
the frontier....the Sgt had to kill a few of the natives who were trying 
to stop us from taking it...makes a nice souvenier for children"

Adios





------------------------------

Bundle: 617
Archive-Message-Number: 7754
From: KenHagler@aol.com
Date: Tue, 24 May 94 20:28:56 EDT
Subject: High Guard ships

When I posted the _Rhine_ class, I stated that there were no known 
variants. As Steve pointed out to me, this is not true--the Alliance Navy 
modified theirs. They also modified the _Berlins_ they recieved. Here are 
the Alliance versions:

TF-1A Rhine TF-R7313G3-090300-00009-2 MCr39,942.7 100,000 tons
batteries bearing  8    Y  Crew=854.
batteries    A    Z  TL=12(13).
Low=427. Cargo=119. Fuel=33,000. EP=3000. Agility=1. Marines=300.
    Y=35, Z=50
Notes: Frozen watch, scoops, plant. This version carried 4 Alliance 
_Berlins_ and twenty of New Home's Wasp fighters.

BM-1A Berlin BM-K6068G3-C00307-00009-0 MCr10,767 10,000 tons
batteries bearing    4    6 Crew=440.
batteries      4    6 TL=12(13).
Low=220. Cargo=244. Fuel=800. EP=800. Agility=6. Marines=350.

Notes: watch, scoops, plant.

These variants would have seen action in the Serendip War.

Stay tuned for the first installment of "Starships of the Cluster 
Liberation War," coming soon to the TML...

Ken


------------------------------

Bundle: 617
Archive-Message-Number: 7755
Date: Tue, 24 May 94 19:57:42 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: All: Imperial Propaganda: Sword Worlds

Gentlesophonts:

Been thinking about the portrayal of the Sword Worlders in the official
campaign material.  Let's look a little closer at the "Contact" article
on the Sword Worlders from *JTAS* #18.

On the status of women:

"Sword Worlds society is militaristic and male-dominated, women having a
much more subordinate position than in the Imperium."

Sounds bad, right?  Here's the specifics:

"Almost without exception, men fill important public offices, business
positions, and high military commands.  While women are not legally or
culturally prohibited from any occupation, any woman in a `male' profession
is expected to exhibit male rather than female behavior (at least in public).
The reverse, however, is not true.  Men may never exhibit female behaviors
(in public at least) without losing face."

Sounds more like the US today, or at least in 1970.

On the instability of Sword Worlds governments and interworld rivalry
let's look at the historical timeline:

- -189  First interstellar government, the Sacnoth (or First) Dominate, formed.
- -102  First Dominate falls in First War of Rebellion, various individual
      and multiworld governments exist.
 104  Triple Dominion formed
 217  Triple Dominion falls, again various smaller governments prevail.
 604  Second Dominate formed after First Frontier War.
 698  Gram Coalition overthrows Second Dominate
 788  Trilateral Alliance replaces Gram Coalition after loss in Darrian War.
 848  Trilateral Alliance falls, replaced by Gram government four years
      later.
1110  Border Worlds break-off after Imperial occupation following the 
      Fifth Frontier War.

Thus, we have six governments ruling for over 700 years over a period
of nearly 1300 years (not counting the Border Worlds).  Prior to the
current government (c1110) at Gram each Sword Worlds government lasted
an average of approximately 90 years - three generations, which is pretty
good for a feudal system.  The most recent government had existed for
over 260 years by 1110!  The interregnum between the current government
and the previous one was only four years.  There was virtually no
interregnum in the two government changes prior to the last one which
means the Sword Worlds have had a single interstellar government, albeit
with changes in the seat of government, almost continuously since the
Second Dominate was formed in 604 - over half a millenia and nearly half
the life of the Third Imperium!

Imperial propaganda: "a battle for the hearts and minds" indeed!

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 617
Archive-Message-Number: 7756
Subject: 74:18/7716 Kirk and McGyv
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 18:45:00 -0500

Subject: 74:18/7716 Kirk and McGyver

T::>>I'd bet MacGyver could build a simple Cannon-Locke or Matchlock out of
 ::>>Bamboo and twine. . .

T::>So can James T. Kirk, especially when a lumbering lizard man (a.k.a. the
 ::>Gorn) was after him!

 Naahh, Kirk needed some diamonds and sulfur to complete the job.  
 I'm not sure where he got the saltpeter, though.  McGyver could do 
 it with nothing but a swamp in the middle of a jungle.
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ QMPro 1.52 ~ We're gonna need another Timmy!

------------------------------

Bundle: 617
Archive-Message-Number: 7757
Date: Tue, 24 May 94 20:17:31 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: Admin: TML Etiquette

Gentlesophonts:

From Monday night, Tariq Rashid <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu> writes:

> I think that it would be best for all on the TML if we refrained from 
> religious references.  The TML is no place for that.

I too felt a little uncomfortable with the religious comparisons made a
while back.  I think a good rule to follow when considering making some
comment about another group is to consider a similar comment made
about the corresponding group that you identify with.  You might have
a little insight then into what you might be doing to someone else.

If you must have a group to `put upon' stick with fictional ones like
those "dirty, stinkin' Zhos" or those nutty Gilgameshers.

Peace,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 617
Archive-Message-Number: 7758
Subject: Steve Higginbotham's TCS campaign...
Date: Tue, 24 May 1994 19:26:56 -0700
From: George Herbert <gwh@crl.com>


Ok, the details are starting to leak out, we should all finally come
clean and admit our parts.  8-)  I want to know, who was playing
the Belt?  

- -george william herbert / Adm Ronald Paskin, CNO Colchis

------------------------------

Bundle: 617
Archive-Message-Number: 7759
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 01:25:06 -0400
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@quark.qrc.com>
Subject: Re: TNE: GARNETT GUN

In Bun#617,AMN 7752, "PBJuzyk" wrote:
> Any suggestions for a name for this gun?  
>
> John Bogan <john.bogan@asb.com> replied to me: The Garnett
> 
> That gun was designed by Guy Garnett (Wildstar@quark.qrc.com), longtime 
> TML member and coordinator of the TNE-Pocket sublist and admin of the GDW-
> Beta sublist.  
> 
> GDW-Beta was formed to test some of the design sequences in FF&S, and 
> Guy tried to re-create a real-life Soviet anti-tank rifle from the 1930's
> (PK something) using the small arms design rules.  Upon seeing the result,
> he called it the "poor man's fusion gun".  POT describes its use EXACTLY
> as he envisioned.

The original design and description for that gun follow.

> Guy also has a regular column, "House Rules", in _The Traveller Chronicle_,
> a new Traveller magazine now gearing up for its fifth issue.

Thanks for the plug, John!

> I say give credit where credit is due.  The Garnett Gun it is.

Thanks!

For your enjoyment, here is the original design and commentary.  PLEASE NOTE
that this item was written PRIOR to the publication of FF&S, and that
I haven't corrected the FF&S stats for this gun from the PRELIMINARY
version of FF&S, so the FF&S design IS NOT CORRECT as stated below.  The gun
as given in _Path of Tears_ and _RCES Equipment Guide_ *HAS* been corrected
to the final version of FF&S, and is as correct as the rules allow.

Personally, I prefer the "real world" stats, which are provably more correct
than any of the FF&S-generated information.  The second column of the design
table below gives the actual values for the real-world gun, as accurately as
I have been able to determine them.  Feel free to use these in place of the
FF&S statistics.

If a lot of the following sounds familiar to purchasers of _Path of Tears_,
well, this materials was used (with permission) by GDW for both POT and the
_RCES Equipment Guide_.



- -----8<----- The following is a post originally dated October 29, 1993:

This is (yet another) small arms design; tonite I'll knock off of the
small arms and see if I can design a Ilyushin Il2m3 (better known as
the Shturmovik) to check out the aircraft design sequences.  That plane's
armor should be, um, challenging, in the FF&S system.

No longer do your TL-5, xenophobic natives have to cower in fear of
Reformation Coalition backed Star Vikings.  Have the local warlord call
up a few squads of these "poor man's fusion guns".  With Ball ammunition
(locally producable at TL-5), they can penetrate TL-10 Battle Dress and any
Combat Armor.  With DS ammunition (a TL-8 item), these weapons have damage 
and penetration equal to (or better than, particularly at longer ranges)
the FGMP-14 and FGMP-15 and can effectively defeat all forms of personal
armor, as well as the side, deck, belly, and turret armor of the G-Carrier
and the Grav Tank.  

Given their relative low cost, particularly when compared to their high-tech 
opponents Battle Dress (Cr220,000) and Fusion Gun (Cr54,000), these weapons 
are clearly very cost-effective.


Example 5: 14.5mm Protivotankovoe Ruzh'yo obr 1941g (PTRS-41)


Item			FF&S Value		"Real-World" Value
			 (note 1)	(all values taken from published
			Ball	DS	 real-world data except as noted)
I. Ammunition
	Tech Level:	5			USSR circa 1941
	Caliber:	14.5mm			14.5mm
	Length:		146.7mm			114mm
	Type:		Necked			Necked, AP Incendiary
	Overall Length:	175.7mm			?
	Mass:		242.25g			201g
	Average Energy:	31007J			31017J
	Price:		Cr12.1	Cr24.2		?

II. Weapon Design
  1. Barrel
	Average Barrel:	147.5cm			139cm
	Actual Barrel:	139cm			139cm
	Type:		Heavy
	Weight:		4.17kg			?
	Price:		Cr1668			?
	Actual Energy:	30123J			31017J
	Damage:		12	12		* 12
	Penetration:	2-2-3	1-1-2		* 2-2-3

  2. Receiver
	Type:		Light Self-Loader	Semi-Automatic		
	Length:		95.5cm			?
	Mass:		30.123kg		?
	Price:		Cr6024.6		?

  3. Stocks
	Type:		Wooden Rifle Stock	Wooden stocks, carrying
	Length:		25cm			handles, and integral bipod.
	Mass:		1kg
	Price:		Cr25
	Barrel Len Mod:	0.9145			* 1
	Close Range:	206.3m	247.6m		* 229.0m

  4. Feed System
	Type:		Box Magazine (note 2)	Internal Magazine, clip loaded
	Capacity:	5			5
	Mass:		1.308kg			?
	Cost		Cr1309			?
	Loaded Mass:	2.519kg			1.193kg

  5. Options
	? Total Mass:	36.601kg (w/o bipod)	22.053kg (with bipod)
	? Total Length:	259.5cm			213.4cm
	? Total Price:	Cr9026.6			?
	Recoil:		5 			* 5
	Bulk:		17			* 14
    b. Bipod
	Bipod Mass:	15.062
	Bipod Cost:	Cr200.6
	Total Mass:	51.663kg		22.053kg
	Total Cost:	Cr9227.2
	Recoil:		3			* 3

* Gaming data computed from real-world values with FF&S formulae.

Notes:
1 - Whenever two figures are given, the first is for ball (an option for
Armor-Piercing Incendiary would have been nice) and the second is for the
"high-tech" (TL-8) Discarding Sabot round.
2 - Figuring the internal magazine as a box magazine that's permanently
attached to the weapon.  I'm also using the grams to kilograms "fix" that
I mentioned in my first weapon design.

Comments: Yes, this really was a real gun.  Originally designed as a man
portable, anti-tank small arms rifle by the Soviets during WWII, the gun
was quickly outclassed by the rapidly improving armor protection of
German tanks.  The cartridge lives on as the ammuntion for the TL-6 KPV
machinegun (found on many Soviet armored vehicles and anti-aircraft
defenses).  The gas-operated action of this rifle (scaled down, of course)
found its way into the SKS rifle.

All in all, I'm not really very happy with this FF&S design; the weapon
came out more than twice as heavy as it should have (a hundred-and-fifteen
pound rifle).  I think the problem here is that the FF&S design system is
too linear; if you push on the high end, you get guns that are much too big 
and heavy, and if you push on the low end, you get things like 10mm (cal) 
by 3mm (long) cartridges and guns that are much too light.

I note that the two biggest contributors to the weight of this gun are the
receiver and the bipod.  Both of these are directly proportional to the
muzzle energy of the weapon.  One (probably the bipod) or both of these
formulae are definitely wrong.  One "fix" might be to make the bipod a
multiple of the mass of the weapon (probaby 1/10th the mass of the weapon,
minimum 1kg) instead of basing it on muzzle energy.


Tactical Considerations:
The close range of this weapon exceeds the extreme range of every fusion
gun except the FGMP-14 and -15, and the short range equals or exceeds the
extreme range of any of the fusion guns.  The best use of these weapons
would be long-range fire at the attackers, from behind cover (preferably
cover strong enough to resist an extreme-range fusion gun strike) or
sniping from outside the range of their weapons.  If this is impossible 
(and it frequently is), then a series protected positions likeley to suprise 
the enemy are good (around a corner in a corridor, for example).

Game Use:
This weapon (or rather, one using the "real world" stats and not the FF&S
design, which is completely impractical) could be quite useful to anti-RC
forces in the New Era.  A relatively low-tech design, it is quite capable
of being manufactured by many worlds in the Wilds.  Although the DS
ammunition is probably going to be considerably harder to produce, there
will probably be a number of worlds equipped with it.  As Star Viking
activities expand, it is very likeley that traders operating in the wilds
will find a demand for this type of weapon.

Several adventure plotlines are possible around this weapon; one which 
suggests itself to me is probably obvious.  The players (RCES or 'Lancers) 
attempt a smash-n-grab on some TL-5 to TL-7 dictator.  They expect an easy 
time of it.  Pull this one on your players after they've done two or three 
of the same type of missions in a row and have had a chance to get 
overconfident and complacent.  Suprise them with the weapon; without the DS 
ammunition, it shouldn't be too deadly, but should (if employed well) be 
able to prevent the PCs from accomplishing some or all of their objectives.  
Drive home to them in a practical sort of way how difficult their lives 
would be if lots of worlds had them.  Later developments in the campaign can
involve efforts to stop free traders from spreading the guns (or the designs)
around the area.  Another one might have to do with discovering that someone
is producing DS ammunition.

- -----8<----- End of original post.


An interesting additional scenario or plot complication has occurred to me
since then.  POT and RCESEG use the FF&S stats for this weapon, which place
it at over a hundred pounds - considerably heavier than the 'real thing',
and severely limiting mobility with the weapon.  One option would be to
assume that the version of the weapon that is being distributed throughout
the wilds by Free Traders has been considerably over-engineered (making it
even *more* rugged, reliable, dirt-tolerant and generally idiot-proof that
is usual for even a Soviet weapon).  Considering that most of the metal
parts are probably about twice as thick as they need to be, you could
probably club someone with it and not loose accuracy.  The thing should be
easy to field-strip, easy to maintain, and shouldn't malfunction even under
considerable provocation.

Once the players think that they've got the drawbacks of this weapon
identified, you can spring the 'lightweight' version on them.  This would be
the 'real world' weight weapon, and is considerably more portable than the
FF&S version.  A logical place to do this would be to decide that some world
at around TL-5 or TL-6 invented this weapon on its own, for native use.  It
would also be a bit more fragile than the 'heavy' version, requiring some
skill in its use to keep it in top working order.

One final caveat when using this gun in a RC campaign (particularly in one
based on scenarios in _Path of Tears_).  The POT sourcebook also contains
some RCES 'improved' armor, with an armor value of 6 (probably specifically
designed by the RC to protect against this gun).  While this is a reasonable
thing for the RC to do, it's worth a second thought for a role-playing
campaign.

With AV-6 armor, RC troops are relatively well (although not perfectly)
protected against the gun, significantly reducing the threat to your PCs.
This is good, in that PCs won't die, but bad in that to increase the level
of the threat you (as referee) have only one option: to introduce DS
ammunition.  This will unfortunately increase the amount of damage the gun
can do to PC-deadly levels.  The "average" damage would be 21 points (33 if
you roll D10s for damage the way I do).

I personally recommend AV-5 combat armor against the ball-equipped gun.
This will allow 2 dice of damage through, which is a crediable threat but
one unlikely to kill PCs with a single shot.  Use the (rare and expensive)
DS ammunition against vehicular and battle dress equipped targets with an AV
of around 8 to 10.  Again, the idea is to provide a credible threat without
an inordinate risk killing PCs with a single lucky shot.  An average of 7
(11 with d10 damage dice) points is enough to make anybody sit up and take
notice, but not so much that they'll be dead before they can react.

I realize that, as the referee, you can 'save' any PCs you feel like by
rolling a disproportinate number of misses, assigning hits to NPCs, or even
managing to throw 6 dice and not roll any number higher than a two (aren't
referee screens wonderful devices?).  But having to do this (or the reverse,
and consistently giving all the 'breaks' to the bad guys) indicates a poor
scenario design or a poor balance between the PCs and the opposition.
Sooner or later the PCs will catch on, and it'll be bad for both their
morale and for theis suspension of disbelief.  It's better to get it right
in the first place than to have to make 'fixes' for the rest of your
campaign.


Well, there you have it - the Garnett Gun.  Enjoy!


Guy Garnett, aka
wildstar@quark.qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                     "I write because I am personally amused by what I do, and
                      if other people are amused by it, then it's fine.  If
                      they're not, then that's also fine."     --- Frank Zappa


------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #618: Msgs 7760-7770 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Wed May 25 22:00:04 EDT 1994
Reply-To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 25 May 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #618: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 618  7760 25-May-1994 Steven M Bonnev  New Xboat Design << All these old High 
 618  7761 25-May-1994 L.T.Bryant       first post << > Greatings all.
 618  7762 25-May-1994 rancke@diku.dk   Sword World Technology << David Johnson
 618  7763 25-May-1994 ubte30e          FF&S: Broken Daedalus Drive? << -----BE
 618  7764 25-May-1994 James T Perkins  XTML: TAKING SUBSCRIPTIONS << I am anno
 618  7765 25-May-1994 Steven M Bonnev  Re: Diseases << Cynthia Higginbotham <C
 618  7766 23-May-1994 Jeff Zeitlin     74:18/7716 Kirk and McGyv << Subject: 7
 618  7767 25-May-1994 PSUAlum@aol.com  TNE: VIRUS << TNE: The VIRUS?
 618  7768 25-May-1994 Steve Charlton/  Misc: Grenadier Figures << In response 
 618  7769 25-May-1994 "Tariq M. Rashi  Re: Another Pair of NPCs << Here are a 
 618  7770 25-May-1994 "Tariq M. Rashi  Re:Magnum Bolt Rifle or Design Sequence

------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7760
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 02:10:04 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: New Xboat Design


All these old High Guard postings lately have got me in the mood
to do a ship design.  But since I haven't seen many designs here
using the new system yet, I thought I'd try to "convert" the old
xboat to the new rules, yet try to keep the old feel and stats.
With one stat tweak to the size, it worked, and here's the result:


_Dinimbue_-class Express Boat ("Xboat")


GENERAL
  Displacement:  20 tons     Hull Armor:  10
  Length:         8 meters   Volume:     280 cu. meters
  Target Size:   VS          Tech Level:  13
  Config'n.:     Sphere SL   Price:   MCr 58.12 (MCr 46.50 in qty.)
  Mass (Loaded/Empty): 126.259/121.353 metric tonnes
  
ENGINEERING
  Power Plant:       16 MW Fusion (8 MW/hit), 1 month duration
  Jump Performance:  4 (70 kL fuel)
  G-Rating:          nil
  Maint:             2
  
ELECTRONICS
  Computer:  6 x TL13Fb (0.9 MW ea.)
  Commo:     3 x 1000 AU maser (infinite, 0.6 MW)
             1 x   30 Mm radio (1 hex, 1.0 MW)
  Sensors:   PEMS fixed array 30 Mm (1 hex, 0.03 MW)
             AEMS 3000 km (0 hex; use long range, 8.0 MW)
  Controls:  2 x workstations
  
ACCOMODATIONS
  Life Support:   Extended (0.056 MW)
                  Artificial Grav (4G, 1.4 MW) 
  Crew:           1 (1 x Maneuver)
  Accomodations:  1 x Lg Stateroom
  Cargo:          400 kg
  Airlocks:       1
  
SYSTEMS
  JD 1H; LSR 1H; PP (4h); LS (4h); ELS (2h); Others (1h)
  
DAMAGE TABLES:
  AREA (1d20)  SURFACE       INT. EXPLOSION
  1            1-4: Ant.     Electronics
  2-5          1-6: Ant.     Electronics
  6            1-3: Airlock  1-4: Qtrs.; 5-19: Elec.; 20: Cargo
  7-9                        1-4: Qtrs.; 5-20: Elec.
  10-11                      1-15: Elec.; 16-20 Fuel
  12-15                      1-14: Elec.; 15-20 Fuel
  16-19                      1-5: Engrg.; 6-20: Fuel
  20                         1-8: Engrg.; 9-20: Fuel
  
The _Dinimbue_-class express boat, or "xboat", has been used by the
IISS Communications Office for centuries as one of the workhorses of
the Imperial communications network.  Optimized for their job, the 
ships are unsuited for almost any task besides carrying electronic
xmail.  The ship carries extensive databanks and a powerful and 
triply backed-up maser communicator.  Only one communicator is
meant to be powered at a time; the radio is for emergencies and
xboat tender retrieval operations only.  The class is named after
the professor at the University of Sylea who, in 624, designed the
infamous "Poni Express" insignia which has since adorned all IISS 
Communications Office ships and crews.

DESIGNER'S NOTES:  This is an attempt to capture the spirit of
the old CT xboat design using the FF&S/Brilliant Lances ship design
rules.  Since any size ship may now carry jump drives, the ship
was simply reduced in size by a factor of five, to the minimum
possible size.  The ship is state-of-the-art for the late 600s
Imperial, when the xboat net was started.  To accurately reflect
the high proportion of fuel to cargo, those hits have been spelled
out explicitly in the damage table rather than using the standard
"Hold" result.  (Typical practice in my designs...a little more
realistic.)  Since the sensors are a bit sub-par (which seems to
fit well with the concept and GDW's typical designs), I assume that 
the tender has a beacon which makes it easy for the xboat to
to center its' commaser.  The old "80% for quantity purchase of
class ships discount" is applied in parentheses under price.
Like the classic xboat, it's a sitting duck.

   Steve Bonneville
   <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7761
From: cs5025@wlv.ac.uk (L.T.Bryant)
Subject: first post
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 12:26:58 +0100 (BST)

> Greatings all.
> 	This is my first poast to the group so please be  gentle.
> I  recantly  perchased  TNE deluxe and after  much  slagging  off
> actuly  read it , the rules are nice and fairly easy (  ive  gmed
> twilight  1st  and 2nd and dark conspiacy) and the  way  thing  s
> fitted  together semed well, then i got to start  looking at  the
> vehicles, after much laughter i cheaked the grav tank in FFS  and
> found  that i raly want to keep my M1E1 tank, but then my  freind
> mr  Archer  asked me to work through the 2300 rules  and  convert
> across  the wepons for the game he wants to run ( It will be  ste
> on  the  bayern so dont ask me why ) and after   working  through
> the  system a few times i have to admit i like it , this  led  me
> to  go  through the maain rules again, and they make  more  sence
> now.
> Im  not  defending TNE as its got enough holes to drive  a  battle
> fleet through but what i am saying is give it a chance as it  may
> turn out to be a real corker.
> befor i sign off a question.
> 	When  is space 1889 coming out for the TNE rule  set ?  (
> remove toung from cheek )
> goodbye and thank you
> -- 
> oh rose thou art sick
>                the invisible worm that flys by night.....STEEL
> 
> 


- -- 
oh rose thou art sick
               the invisible worm that flys by night.....STEEL


------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7762
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: Sword World Technology
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 17:29:14 +0100 (METDST)

David Johnson writes:
>Hans Rancke <rancke@diku.dk> writes:
>>As I recall it (correct
>>me if I'm wrong) you started out by asking how come Gram was the leader of
>>the Sword Worlds when Sacnoth was so much more powerful. 
> 
>Yes, I think that's it.
> 
>>I assumed that
>>you were talking about powerful in the naval sense (since a TL or two
>>dosen't mean nearly as much as the population size in the economic sense).
> 
>Okay, here's where I diverge.  I was thinking more along the lines of
>`economic' strength, which I agree is tied to population, than mere naval
>strength.  Keep in mind that Gram and Sacnoth are on the same order of
>population (6 billion and 3 billion, respectively).  Narsil is at 20
>billion but it's two TLs below Sacnoth.  Still, in a feudal technocracy,
>one tech level is going to make a *tremendous* amount of difference.  (It's
>like the difference between Japan and Mexico if Japan's economic power 
>gave it corresponding political power in Mexico.)

But according to the only _Traveller_ rules we have on the subject (_TCS_)
technology _dosn't_ make that much difference. If you look at the credit 
conversion table you'll see that the credits of two worlds with the same 
starport type (which I take in this context to mean the same level of trade)
differ by only 5% per TL. Now, I'm not an economics major. Perhaps that
notion is as ridiculous as some of the mistakes that I am able to spot. 
But since I don't know any better I'm arguing from those tables. With
twice the population of Sacnoth Gram is nearly twice as powerful as Sacnoth
economically.

>I believe I've accepted that these cycles *might* exist and that if they
>do they would explain Gram's leadership of the Confederation.  My concern
>has been that I can't see what *causes* these `techno-economic' cycles
>(since we've agreed they have no `real world' parallel) 

We don't agree on that. We have plenty of real world parallels for economic
cycles. Since we agree that a lower-than-15 TL can only be due to economic
reasons, economic instability _should_ result in TL instability. (Btw. I'm
not so sure we don't have any examples of that. Didn't some farmers put
their cars in the barn and go back to the horse waggon during the Great
Depression?).

>>But my whole point is that they _will_ have much more than a clue. The
>>knowledge is there even if the industry isn't.
> 
>I feel that it takes more than just knowledge.  I don't care how much you
>know about internal combustion engines, if you can't refine oil to make
>gasoline and you don't have a continental highway network you're going
>to have a rough time getting your Yugo or Hyundai from Houston to Detroit.
>The knowledge may be there on a lower tech world but the corresponding
>infrastructure isn't.

Make that steamships instead and you have a better analogy, since the ships
of space don't need any highways. Even if you can't produce boiler plates
you may still be able to rivet them together when they come apart.

>>No, it proves that the authors of a board game have different priorities
>>from the authors of a role-playing game.
> 
>Now wait a minute!  :-)  What happened to:
> 
>>I really think you should try to make up an explanation that fits the known
>>facts rather than to make up an explanation and change the facts to fit them.
> 
>And:
> 
>>IMO one should prefer
>>the one that corresponds most closely to GDWs version.
> 
>Please, Hans, I've got a smile on my face right now and there is absolutely
>no malice in it.  I'm enjoying the living daylights out of our discussions.

No offense taken. I do mean that, but I also direct you to the word 'try'.
If different sources disagree we have to choose between them, and in most 
cases I'd be inclined to choose the role-playing source over the board
game source. I'd be happier if we could reconcile them, but it's just not
possible. _TCS_ gives much bigger fleets than is present in 5FW. 

>>The whole force is much less than the total available Sword World forces;
>>the attack on the Imperium appears to be a secondary effort. Most of 
>>their prime units must have gone against the Darrians. Any Gram TL 12
>>units could be there.
> 
>Well, maybe, but this doesn't agree with the campaign as it was reported in
>*Spinward Marches Campaign*.  According to *SMC*, the Narsil Fleet patrolled
>the Darrian border (and eventually lost the disputed worlds in Querion to
>the Darrians) while the Sacnoth Fleet patrolled the rimward border and
>was eventually destroyed by the Imperial 214th Fleet attacking from Glisten
>and occupying what became the Border Worlds.  Note the Narsil Fleet was
>deployed against the lower tech Darrians rather than the Imperial Navy.

I had forgotten that. OK, consider the above retracted. 5FW forces are just
generally understrength.

>>So what the Traveller SWs owe to Piper is actually little more than
>>the concept of the sword names.
> 
>Well, not exactly.  There are other similarities.  The whole feudal
>technocracy thing.  The *JTAS* article on the former Sword Worlds naval
>captain who's spouse/fiance was killed on their wedding day so she sold
>the family estate to buy a ship and chase the killers - nothing more
>than Lucas Trask in a dress!

I said 'little more'. You're right on both above counts. But Elaine would
have had no chance of going Space Viking from Piper's Gram if Lucas had
been the one killed. That 'nothing more' is quite a lot.

>>The societies are different in a number of
>>ways too (Women accepted in 'male' roles for instance).
> 
>I think this `liberation' issue is merely a matter of when Piper was 
>writing (early 60's) versus when GDW was creating Traveller (late 70's).

I think so too, but what's that got to do with it? It _is_ a pretty
significant difference between the two societies.

>Remember, the GDW material makes a big deal of the `mis-treatment' of
>women in the Sword Worlds.  

Mistreatment? Men and women are assigned different roles in society,
thereby denying some women the chance to fulfill their potential (and
some men too, btw.) That's not good, but I wouldn't call it mistreatment.
On top of that women have a safety valve in that they are accepted in 
'male' roles provided they adopt 'male' behaviour. Males are never
accepted in 'female' roles.

As Steve Bonneville points out:
> 
>>The ranking flag, Riksdattar, is
>>much like Santanocheev.  [Incidentally, if her name is formed
>>in the Icelandic manner, Riksdattar is a woman.  Just an
>>observation for the SW culture watchers.]

Nothing contradictory in that. Riksdattar is a female accepted in a 'male'
role. And apparently she's really accepted, not just tolerated (Either
that or she's the daughter of a king. 'Rik' is a nordic name, but it
could also mean 'realm').

>I think there's a great deal of similarity between Piper's Sword Worlds
>and GDW's Sword Worlds on the issue of how women are portrayed/treated.

I think there's quite some difference.

>>That's just what I said. It's two different and independent bits of my
>>argument. The disparate TLs indicates a close tie to economy. Economy can
>>(and often does) fluctuate. Ergo TLs can fluctuate. If you postulate that 
>>Sword World economy dosen't fluctuate you get stable TLs. If you postulate 
>>that it does you get unstable TLs.
> 
>Okay, but why suppose these still-unexplained cycles 

I despair of explaining those cycles any better than by the sentence 'Economy 
can (and often does) fluctuate'. 

>when they're not needed
>to explain the disparity?  If the different economies are merely at
>different stages of development (with higher TL being an indication of
>greater `advancement') there is no need of these cycles.  

Except to explain why it took Gram 14 centuries to go from TL 12 to TL 11.
OK, there's been some civil wars in between, but they've had centuries
since the 3FW. This _could_ be explained by a slow, steady, uneventful
economic rise over the centuries with, say, a TL per two centuries. Or
it could be an economic roller-coaster that pulls one world two steps
back every time it get one step ahead. Personally, knowing how today's
industrial magnates love to screw around with each other, the second
picture seems much more likely than the first.

>Then Zhodani aid,
>already well established in the canonical material, explains why Gram has
>lead the Confederation when one would expect more advanced (higher tech)
>Sacnoth to do so.

Or much richer Narsil.

>>Certainly. The stable economy theory. But one set of UPPs isn't enough to
>>say anything one way or the other about this.
> 
>Ah, but what about *all* those other worlds *outside* the Sword Worlds 
>that aren't experiencing these cycles?  What `facts' suggest the Sword
>Worlds should be different from the rest of the universe?

First of all, how do you know they haven't? Regina was settled in 75. It 
was TL 10 in 1105. It was TL 11 or 12 in 1120, wasn't it? (I haven't the
books with me here and may be misremembering). Why did Regina gain one
or no TLs in 10 centuries and one more in 15 years? It dosen't make much
sense if you assume that TLs always increase or stagnate (barring wars).
It makes perfect sense if TLs rise and fall over the centuries.
Secondly, even if the Imperium _is_ stable there could be a very good
reason for that: Imperial control. The Sword Worlds have a political
machine, a commitee, to rule them. The Imperium has a single authority
who can shift things around to keep the economy more or less stable 
whoever it may hurt in the short run. The Confederation Council has to
take short term hurts into consideration.

>>several sets of UPPs for the Sword Worlds, but since they have world
>>populations fluctuating by bilions within a decade
> 
>Billions?  Really?  Can you cite the sources?  This is interesting from
>our allegiance/borders viewpoint too.

Yep, I'll dig it out and post it later.

>>Are the US and Europe and Japan different countries? Yet their economies
>>are tightly intertwined.
> 
>No, they're not tighly entwined politically *and* economically like the
>case would be in a feudal technocracy.  A better example would be, say,
>California and, heck, all the other states west of the Rockies put
>together.  When California wants federal water in Montana, it gets it.
>Largely because of it's greater population (which also gives it a larger
>economy) which gives it greater political power in the representative
>democracy we have here.

I'm beginning to see where you're going wrong. See below.

>>>If the economy is interstellar then political power in interstellar...
>> 
>>I don't see how that follows.
> 
>By definition.  In a feudal technocracy, economic power translates *directly*
>into political power.  

Where did you get that definition? I mean, if you made it up yourself you're
begging the question. I admit that I'm vague about just how a feudal
technocracy works, but isn't that because it's a term GDW made up (Or lifted
from some SF book?)? Or is there some dictionary definition of the term? 
Have there ever been a formal feudal technocracy in Real Life? 

>You get to be `king' because you control the largest share of stock.

In a feudal society you get to be king because you have the support of the
great lords. In theory you gets that support because you own the land and
lend it to the great lords in return for their sworn support (In practice
the great lords often control the land whatever the King wants).

By analogy a feudal technocracy is one where the King theoretically owns
all the industry (the source of power analogous to land in a feudal
society) and lend it out in exchange for support. In practice many great
lords propably control their 'fiefs' whatever the King wants.

>Yes, it does, except that in Europe representatives are chosen through a
>representative democracy that places power in the hands of individuals
>equally while in a feudal technocracy (and in the *keiritsu*) those
>representatives are chosen by shareholders that place power in the hands
>of the owners of production.

What you are describing is a corporate government, not a feudal one. In a
feudal government power (in this case, ownership of shares) flows from the 
top to the bottom. What you describe is power flowing from the bottom (the 
individual shares) to the top.

>>The pacification campaigns took place before even the Ante-bellum period of
>>the Imperium. The 3rd frontier War took place after the Civil War and the
>>Psionic suppressions. I find no problem with accepting that Imperial
>>attitudes were different in those two periods.
> 
>Another good point, but it still begs the question of the Imperium not
>`dealing with' the Sword Worlds.

After the 3FW the Imperium dealt with the Sword Worlds by invading them.
Later a different administration decided that the occupation was either
unnecessary ("They'll never dare do anything again, not in a thousand 
years"), or just too expensive, or both. The 4FW was settled by negotiations
and one proviso must certainly be that the Imperium did not retaliate
against the Sword Worlds. And after the 5FW they again dealt with the 
Sword Worlds, this time by setting up a puppet governmnt on half of them.
I just don't understand how you can say that they didn't deal with them.
They've dealt with them at least twice.

>>I must have a different definition of 'intergration' than you. I think these
>>worlds all produce whatever is most profitable at any given time and sell it
>>to anyone who will buy. That's not intergration in my book.
> 
>If I'm Freya Freighters of Sacnoth and I buy a controlling interest in
>Loki Levitation of Gram I have not only gained economic influence on Gram
>but *political* power as well.  

Granted, but the only way you can get that influence is if the king of
Gram allows you to buy that controlling interest. Remember the 'feudal'
in the government class. The king theoretically _owns_ those shares and
what you pay for must be the right to benefit from them. And one of the
things you must pay with is the promise to support him. So it's even
possible that King Harald will not allow you to invest in anything on
Gram.

>Since, at TL 12, I'm clearly the strongest economic power

Fallacy. See above. 

>then I'm going to gain more and more of this sort of
>control.  As soon as the King Harald of Sacnoth (thanks, Cynthia) buys
>a controlling interest in the holdings of King Angus of Gram, Angus 

Angus? Could we select some oth name, please? How about Anders?

>becomes Harald's *vassal*!  That's how a feudal technocracy works.

Is it? Perhaps our first step should be to define just what a feudal
technocracy is and how it works.



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "This gives a possible range of 56 to 178 starships
         total  in the three Terran starport facilities,  a
         believable quantity for such a star system."

        "We have a maximum of 178 ships in port, and (as it
         is a busy star system)  we will say that there are
         70 docking berths at the Phoenix facility."

                        ---Journal of the Traveller's
                           Aid Society # 18

------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7763
From: ubte30e <ubte30e@ucl.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 17:09:41 +0100
Subject: FF&S: Broken Daedalus Drive?

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville) wrote:

>Recently, for whatever reason, I looked into designing a ship capable
>of interstellar flight with a payload of five billion tons, using FF&S.
>(A *huge* payload. Some of the CT referees out there who liked FASA may
>know where my number is coming from.) So I checked out drive systems.

Sorry, 'fraid I missed that one.  Explanation, please? <sound of PCs
quaking in boots>

>STL travel stinks. And it revealed a *major* bug in the FF&S rules. At
>[...]
>higher." (p. 74)

>#$**$%^@! <This is a family mailing-list.> :)

>Per cubic meter of maneuver drive: (in metric tons)

>                 THRUST       FUEL USE  ...fuel per ton of thrust
>Daedalus drive: 1.5 ton   0.00050 ton/hr.     0.000334 ton/hr
>Fusion rocket   9.0 ton   0.00035 ton/hr.     0.000039 ton/hr
>HEPlaR drive:  33.4 ton   0.02917 ton/hr.     0.000873 ton/hr

>[...]

>The Daedalus drive is an order of magnitude *worse* in fuel efficiency
>than the conventional fusion rocket!!! Combined with its' worse
>thrust-to-mass ratio, the engine is fairly worthless.

<bing!> Wrong, but thanks for playing. See FF&S page 70, column 2, para
3, "FC"; "Fuel consumption, in tonnes, per hour per tonne of thrust."
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
So the Fusion Rocket line should actually be:

Fusion rocket   9.0 ton   0.00035 ton/hr.     0.000350 ton/hr

This makes the Daedalus slightly better, but still nothing like an order
of magnitude.

What REALLY worries me, though, is the fuel efficiency of AZHRAE
engines.  Has anyone actually tried to design a tech 8 surface-to-orbit
vehicle (NASP or similar)?  As far as I can see, it's not actually
possible to carry enough fuel to make orbit from an Earth-sized world.
(I'll go into details of the calculation only if necessary.)  Does
anybody have a fully-worked design for something of this sort?

>Any comments? Am I reading this wrong?

Only that table heading - and there are still big problems.

Roger ("I only wanted some NASP stats for Dark Conspiracy")

- - --
Roger Burton-West <> Reality hacker <> Economics student <> The Last Romantic
GEcon/CS d? p--- c++++ l u+(-) e+ m++@ s++/+ !n h+ f+ g+(-) w+ t- r+ y?
Mail me at ubte30e@ucl.ac.uk (or @uk.ac.ucl) or rburtonw@nyx.cs.du.edu
Finger at ubte30e@link-1.ts.bcc.ac.uk or rburtonw@nyx.cs.du.edu for PGP key

Harrisberger's Fourth Law of the Lab:
Experience is directly proportional to the amount of equipment ruined.

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------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7764
Subject: XTML: TAKING SUBSCRIPTIONS
Reply-To: jamesp@sp-eug.com (James T Perkins)
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 09:14:33 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@sp-eug.com>


I am announcing: Xboat Traveller Mailing List - a TNE-free zone. XTML
will focus discussion on:

	Eras			Rulesets
	-----------------	------------------
	Third Imperium		Classic (black books, The Traveller Book)
	Rebellion		MegaTraveller

In contrast, the good old TML will still be open for any rangy
discussion, alternate, etc, no holds barred.

XTML will be provided in nightly, biweekly, and archive bundle digest
format (just like TML).

To SUBSCRIBE to XTML, mail xboat-request@engrg.uwo.ca.
To SEND ARTICLES to XTML, mail xboat@engrg.uwo.ca.

Eventually, XTML will be rejoined with an improved, tech level 8 TML,
coming hopefully within the next year (something like this will be
necessary anyway in order for me to manage the administrative load). The
Advanced TML will introduce:

	o topical filtering of TML - the digests will only include
	  topics you have a stated interest in. Key topic identifier
	  strings will be required on the subject line so the filters
	  can recognize content.

	o a robotic list admin to handle subscription, unsubscription,
	  address changes delivery frequency, and personal topic-filter
	  changes

	o higher-reliability message digestion (this has been bugging me
	  lately, folks).

James Perkins
TML Admin -- traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
XTML Admin -- xboat-request@engrg.uwo.ca

------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7765
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 13:15:33 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: Re: Diseases

Cynthia Higginbotham <CHiggin@aol.com> writes:

>From: A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
>
>>  > First, viruses tend to be *very* species specific.
>
>    *RABIES!* (Which afflicts *all* mammals with varying degrees of 
>    lethality, i.e., some frequently infected mammals have large 
>    populations of immune carriers....)

Mea culpa -- you caught me making an overly broad statement.  Let me
try that line again:
  "First, viruses *tend* to be very species specific."

Both influenza and rabies are examples of multi-species virii.
As far as I know, however, they are still both limited to class
Mammalia.  Influenza is unstable genetically, which is why there
are so many flu strains and why coming up with effective vaccines
is so hard.  Bubonic plague is caused by a bacterium, _Yersinia
pestis_ (unless they've changed their mind about the genus again),
so it's a slightly different story.  Many non-viral microorganisms
could be expected to have effects in alien ecologies that are 
chemically similar to our own, especially those involved in 
decomposition.  The bacteria and fungi work directly on the
chemical structure of an organism, giving them a lot of food
opportunities.  

Viruses are another story.  Typically, viruses have a "host range"
of organisms they can infect, and usually this range is limited
to one species.  From what I recall, a virus targets it's quarry
based on the chemical antigens and structure of the surface of the
preferred cell.  (So HIV attacks certain white-blood cells, but 
not, for example, nerve cells.)  So a virus will typically be 
optimized to attack one specific sub-system, and sometimes the 
optimization is very very specific.  The viruses that attack
multiple species are usually targeting very similar cell types.

Furthermore, the target cell needs to be able to interact with
the DNA or RNA strand the virus releases.  If the alien isn't
DNA/RNA based, or simply can't produce the parts the virus needs
for construction, the infection won't work.

There are usually subtle differences between cells even in similar
species, especially at the cell membrane level viruses use to
recognize potential targets.

Conceivably, a virus designed to affect all Terran mammals could
infect the vargr, since vargr are Terran mammals, and members of
a genus in class Mammalia related to _Canis_.  But all external
similarities aside, a human should be more closely related 
genetically to a strand of kelp than to an aslan, or any other
alien.  (In Traveller this may not be true.  But then, the aliens
in Traveller are more science-fantasy than reality, of course.)

Targeting specific species would be simpler.  You just have to
pick a cell type unique to the population that you are targeting.
This sort of thing might make a horror like a disease that prefers
Vilani or Zhodani, for the most part, possible.  You really
couldn't *trust* such a thing, since the human minor races are so
closely related, but someone might try.

I suppose one could speculate about the existence of a Lucanian
biowar weapon that did target several species, not necessarily a
virus, that mainly was meant to nail humans.  That might have some
interesting effects on future history -- the former territory of
the Imperium might end up being dominated by a number of very 
non-human alien species that were unaffected by the weapon and
thus lucked into ready-made pocket empires early on.  Some of 
the nastier may have even helped the weapon along....

Yuck.  This is getting ugly.  As far as I know, the Imperium
never used CBW, although they did stockpile some in the Marches
during the bitter Third Frontier War.  The Second Empire of
Gashikan did mount a particularly despicable attempt at 
xenocide in the -1400s (31st century AD) against the entire
vargr species, using a series of microbes.  The vargr stopped
it, but almost all the vargr in Gashikan sector died.  It was
the worst part of a long series of interspecies wars set off
by the Sack of Gashikan in -1658 (AD 2860).  Note that only
the vargr were targeted.  An Ancient biowar weapon seriously
depopulated Zhdant, but it was targeted primarily at the world's
(now extinct) Droyne population...and who knows *how* it worked;
it was an Ancients weapon.  (Besides, it was out of character.
Not only did it not kill all the humans, it was misdelivered
and didn't hit right until after the Zhodani had space-flight.
Usually Ancient weapons seem to hit whatever they attacked, and
destroy whatever they hit.)

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7766
Subject: 74:18/7716 Kirk and McGyv
From: nntp!execnet.com!jeff.zeitlin@uu5.psi.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Mon, 23 May 94 18:45:00 -0500

Subject: 74:18/7716 Kirk and McGyver

T::>>I'd bet MacGyver could build a simple Cannon-Locke or Matchlock out of
 ::>>Bamboo and twine. . .

T::>So can James T. Kirk, especially when a lumbering lizard man (a.k.a. the
 ::>Gorn) was after him!

 Naahh, Kirk needed some diamonds and sulfur to complete the job.  
 I'm not sure where he got the saltpeter, though.  McGyver could do 
 it with nothing but a swamp in the middle of a jungle.
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ QMPro 1.52 ~ We're gonna need another Timmy!

------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7767
From: PSUAlum@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 14:31:02 EDT
Subject: TNE: VIRUS

TNE: The VIRUS?

Discussions of the viability of the GDW VIRUS are similar to discussions
of the existence of God: there are two sides and neither can be
conclusively argued.

Possibly VIRUS is not properly named, or is the common reference used
for what is involved.  This is similar to my work at a wastewater
treatment plant - we use bacteria and algae to treat wastewater but most
of the workers refer to these biological organisms as 'bugs' which they
are not.

From my understanding the VIRUS was developed from research of a silicon
life form.  This life form is completely unlike anything that exists on
Earth in 1994 so we, the members of TML, may very well have gross
misconceptions of this beastie.  This life form seems to exist as
computer code that is able to burn new circuits much as we can construct
various forms of habitats to increase our quality of life.  In so doing
this VIRUS, as it is called by the humans whose computers it has taken
control of, has decided to use those computers to control the various
forms of equipment in meeting an agenda of its own.

If this were merely a computer virus it well could be said to be
unbelievable.  Even as it is I feel that GDW simply used it as a plot
device to bring about the transition from MT to TNE (I wonder if thios
much banter goes on re. the transition from TSR's AD&D (TM) to the 2nd
edition rules?


PBJuzyk                             | 'Most plans don't even survive
Reading, PA                         |  contact with Reality'
Terra/Solomani Rim (1827 G867975-8) |   -Hammer Lanthrop, *Smash & Grab*


------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7768
From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc
Date: 25 May 94 14:17:24 MS
Subject: Misc: Grenadier Figures

In response to Glenn Goffin's 5/24 message about Grenadier figures:

I was able to order some Grenadier Marines about 18 months ago from
Wargames West.  They did not have any of the Adventurers or Aliens
sets at that time.  They may still have something; it would be worth a
try.

I would also like to find another Adventurers set, and I wouldn't mind 
getting some more Alien Animals and Alien Adventurers.  Let me know 
if you find any for sale.  Thanks!


------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7769
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 17:45:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Another Pair of NPCs

Here are a couple more of the 10 NPCs that I promised

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Ulysses Stark ,Sgt(ret)			Born 12,1160 Arizona Dawn
7-5-8-7-6-6 Soc-7			Age 41

Willpower-2	Streetwise-2	UAMA-4
Computer-0	Whld Veh-1	Slug Rifle-4
Large Blade-1	Small Blade-2	Autogun-4
Riding-4	Survival-2	Tracked Veh-2
Intrusion-2	Slug Pistol-3	Observation-2
Investigation-1	Persuasion-2	Admin/Legal-1
Interrogation-2

Ulysses Stark grew up on Arizona Dawn in one of the more populous 
cities.  He enlisted in the NeoSol Confederation Marines at the age of 17 
and served as an autogunner, MP and various other duties.  In 1189 
Ulysses, along with a hand (platoon) of Marines were stranded on a 
frontier  planet due to an accident/oversight.  He and his team evaded 
hostile locals for 16 months before being befriended by one group of 
nomads.  The people there talked about something called "Helios?"  The 
lost platoon was rescued in late 1190 and returned home under relative 
secrecy but not before the friendly nomads had given to Ulysses the 
tattered remnants of some long dead archaeologists journal...the exact 
meaning of its observations still a mystery due to its fractured nature.  
He married the Nemon Rebel and fugitive Jana Biesecker on Arizona Dawn in 
1193 and retired from the marines in 1197 after 20 years of service.  He 
then became constable for a small district on Enope and raised riding 
animals.  When two junior constables were found shot to death in their 
ATV in a local wilderness area all fingers pointed to the strange loner 
who lived in the hills by the name of Solon Maghib.  Ulysses vowed to 
hunt the killer down and did so only to discover him held prisoner by the 
son of a local wealthy statesman.  When challenged the man Aaron Nessus 
fired at the Constable who shot him dead.  Constable Stark subsequently 
found life very difficult on Enope and eventually decided to leave, 
trying to find his fortunes working as a security consultant for some 
corporation or high port.  He still recieves a pension of about 900 Cr/month.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strephon Pecorin			Born 264,1173  Prima
6-5-6-B-A-A Soc-9

UAMA-1		Willpower-2	Computer-2	
Research-2	Act/Bluff-2	Biology-3
Xeno-Biology-2	Farming-2	Music(keyboard)-2
Admin/Legal-4	Leadership-2	Marketing-2
Persuasion-2	Bargain-2	Env Suit-1
Gambling-1	Liaison-2

Strephon grew up a fairly average middle class kid during the hey day of 
the NeoSol Confederation before it gave way to the Unified Sphere.  He 
attended NeoSol Univ and got an undergraduate degree in Agricultural 
Science.  He moved on the graduate school where he mastered in 
agricultural economics.  As a bright young wunderkind he was snatched up 
by NeoSol Systems Company rapidly emerging agricultural systems 
division.  The redevelopment of worlds ravaged by the rebellion and hard 
times provided ample oppurtunity to whoever got off to a head start.  He 
was trained and sent to the relatively new automated lowland facility on 
Rach where he was part of the analytical team that helped to plan the 
facility layout for the future works.  He transferred to the planet 
Aquilas where he worked as a special assistant to then Facility Manager 
Amura Adan.  After suffering losses from ocean going pirates there and 
the lack of any centralized government on the world, Strephon and Amura 
developed the idea of a corporate action team to handle such situations.  
After some persuasion the company decided to back the idea although there 
were malcontents.  Strephon is now Amura direct assistant and handles 
much of the administrative and analytical work of the team.

"I was brought up to believe that if you work hard and youre always 
honest that youll make something of yourself.  Life has taught me that 
people lie.  Ive developed a sense of bitterness but I still try to be 
true to myself through honesty and hard work.  Ambition? Yes Im ambitous, 
Im looking for that idea, that score that will push me towards the top 
but I temper that with compassion and common sense.  Being a part of the 
team is great, Heck Amura and I are just alike, she's even told me I 
remind her of herself 6 years ago.  I think we make a pretty good team"

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
Belal Hebron  Cpt(Marine Reserves)		Born 120, 1171 Age 29
						Rex High Port
Computer-3	Whld Veh-0	Willpower-3
Swimming-0	Leadership-2	Physics-3
Starshp Arch-2	Slug Pistol-2	Sensors-3
Commo-2		Pilot I/G-6	Grnd Tac-2
Env Suit-4	Observation-2	UAMA-3
Marketing-2	Admin/Legal-2

My father and mother worked in a high port orbiting prima.  Thats where I 
was born.  My mother was a sub-manager and my fathers was a technician.  
I attened secondary school planetside and so lived there away from my 
parents during the school terms.  I went on to university where I majored 
in general physics.  One summer I got the chance to do a drop from orbit 
with a Marine pilot in one of the new Drop Gunships.  I was hooked.  I 
got into the conferderation Marines after graduation and was selected for 
a pilots slot.  I graduated from flight school with my drop wings on Day 
1,1196.  
	I was in a drop gunship a year later when the Carrier Altair 
jumped for the first frontier excursion.  Theres nothing like dropping in 
from orbit in 40 tons of composites and crystaliron loaded down with half 
again that wt of everytype of ordnance you can think of.  Its no problem, 
the grav negates your weight so you can sit there and hover behind that 
tree line for a half an hour until called upon, then you light up 80 tons 
of thrust and come roaring across the battlefield.  It can really suck 
being the other guy.  The gunships arent grav tanks but their a grav 
tanks worst nightmare.
	During my second tour off Midas Prime, my "ground pounder" as 
theyre called was hit my some sort of beam which disabled it, (so much 
for armor)  I egressed and was later rescued off the planets surface.  On 
the ground I felt very strange about the appearances of things.  I cant 
quite put my finger on it but it hand something to do with the 
geometry?! of the terrain.  I took some pictures with my data recorder 
that Ive never gotten around to taking to an expert.  I left active duty 
for the reserves soon after that.  I was able to buy a little grav 
shuttle on Prima and I fly that around Sol City on charters.  Ive got an 
offer to join a team from an old friend Strephon Pecorin so Im headed to 
the high port to check it out.  Adio
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
My mistake...make that three NPCs

Tariq

"Cats and Traps can be more fun than a barrell full of monkeys...
 ..as long as youre not the one in the barrell and the monkeys keep their 
hands to themselves...."  
			From Naval Aviation News



------------------------------

Bundle: 618
Archive-Message-Number: 7770
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 18:56:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Tariq M. Rashid" <spstmr@gsusgi2.gsu.edu>
Subject: Re:Magnum Bolt Rifle or Design Sequence Abuse

Some rules hardliners might get upset here but I have no problem with 
adding things to the RPG tech background to either correct (in my mind) 
things or introduce effects or capabilities as long as they are not in 
direct conflict with the standing rules.  This preamble is here because I 
would like to introduce a new type of ammunition/weapon that I have 
played withand might start using.  The goal is the beloved Blaster of 
SciFi fame.  I wont post this in standard weapon form because it is 
really intended to initiate discussion.

This weapon is the Magnum Bolt Rifle.  It is compact,  at 60cm and 
beefy at about 6.8 kg loaded.  A fat weapon.  At 60cm its short 
enough to be a sort of heavy blaster.  It fires a round that has as its 
base a 20mm x 32mm Straight ETC cartridge.  This gives Ea of 8500J.  
The rules bending is this.  One of the available ammo aside from Heap and 
DS is a Plasma Pulse Cartridge that sits on the end of the ETC 
cartridge.  It is ballistic tipped.  The ETC cartridge initiates the 
"reaction" in the PPC.  A micro piezo electric fuze in the ballistic cap 
discharges the plasma stream upon impact.  It is in a sense a Super HEAP 
round.  Dont ask me how it works.  It is in effect a ballistically 
delivered plasma pulse.  The special effect would be that the cartridge 
glows because of the heat and it fails completey after about 0.5 s when 
you just get a 20 meter stream of plasma.  Maybe doing 1D6 burn damage to 
anybody in the stream hexes.?..A PPC about this size is a 3D6 attack.  
The round energy with a 20 cm barrell gives 5D6? So the total would be 
about 8D6?  It would have a pen of 1-1-1 but a max range of 200m because 
of the cartridge consumption. So....you get a large caliber weapon that 
fires a glowing bolt at about 400 m/s (slow enough to be seen?) That will 
punch right through battle dress.  You get the range of a slug weapon 
with the Pen of a Plasma weapon.  Think about it, ballistically delivered 
fusion cartridges?  And after about 200m you get a bright streamer.  Even 
better the thing gives off a bright explosion? when it hits a target 
inside 200m.  Hell, if you dont like my bolt ammo just look and see what 
a rifle firing 20mm x 32 mm Heap ammo can do.  That alone would make an 
extremely devastating but still compact weapon.  I can see it now, the 
Battle Dress trooper at TL 10 coming down and seeing these guys in 
T-Shirts with some short compact weapon and while theyre laughing hearing a 
kaboom and wondering where that hole through his chest armor came from.  
As soon as I find my FF&S Ill formalize all this stuff.  But the Magnum 
Rifle is something Im definitely gonna dump in a campaign...

Tariq

"The rocket cannot work in space because there's nothing to push off of"
				William Randolph Hearst
 



------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 29 May 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #619: Msgs 7771-7779 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun May 29 22:00:04 EDT 1994
Reply-To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 May 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #619: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 619  7771 25-May-1994 KenHagler@aol.c  High Guard design << Here's another Hig
 619  7772 25-May-1994 David Johnson    All: Army and Navy << Gentlesophonts:
 619  7773 25-May-1994 David Johnson    Alt: Earth Colonies NPC << Gentlesophon
 619  7774 25-May-1994 David Johnson    Alt: Earth Colonies Library Data << Gen
 619  7775 25-May-1994 Wesley Esser     <<          Hi guys - 
 619  7776 25-May-1994 John Bucsek      Reformation Coalition Equipment Guide <
 619  7777 26-May-1994 "Glenn M. Goffi  Polisotechnic League/Nicholas van Rijn 
 619  7778 26-May-1994 Edward Swatsche  re: ... ship types or classes ... << Da
 619  7779 26-May-1994 Rob Dean         TCS vs. FFW << David Johnson and Cynthi

------------------------------

Bundle: 619
Archive-Message-Number: 7771
From: KenHagler@aol.com
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 20:00:21 EDT
Subject: High Guard design

Here's another High Guard design. This time the history of the ship is 
given up through the Cluster Liberation War.

     _Rorke's Drift_ class Heavy Cruiser

CA-1 Rorke's Drift CA-N6368F3-090100-00E08-0 MCr30,626.8 35,000 tons
batteries bearing      D    1 9  Crew=296.
batteries        F    1 A  TL=12.
Low=273. Cargo=806. Fuel=13,300. EP=2800. Agility=6. Marines=250.

Notes: Ship has frozen watch, fuel scoops, purification plant.

This is the original _Rorke's Drift_ design. 60 of these ships were built 
for the NFN, all named for famous battles fought on Earth. This version 
of the ship saw action during both the Old Islands War, in which six were 
lost, and the Topas War. Following the Topas War, FAdm Connor commented 
that the lack of armour made this class to vulnerable to risk against 
capital ships.

The surviving cruisers received the Series A refit in 5630.

CA-1 Series A CA-N6368H4-090300-N0009-0 MCr30,670.5 35,000 tons
batteries bearing    D  1 9 Crew=281.
batteries      F  1 A TL=12(14).
Low=641. Cargo=676. Fuel=13,300. EP=2800. Agility=6. Marines=1000.

Notes: Ship has frozen watch, scoops, plant. The refit cost MCr1,330.47 
per ship and took 14 weeks.

The Series A _Rorke's Drift_ received the new Missile-A bays and a laser 
spinal mount, and also had the Marine contingent greatly expanded, from 
two companies to a heavily reinforced battalion.

The added accomodations for the Marines came in handy, as the _Rorke's 
Drift_ class was called on to perform several disaster relief missions 
throughout the Cluster in the next few years--the Marines were frequently 
replaced with medical personnel.

In addition to the disaster relief missions, the class also saw action in 
the Serendip War. 34 of them were at the Second Battle of Neubayern, and 
13 of them were lost or damaged beyond repair.

When the Imperials invaded, eleven ships were hidden in deep space, and 
the remaining thirty were removed to the safe worlds. There they received 
the Series B refit.

CA-1 Series B CA-N6368J4-000700-N000A-0 MCr35,315.2 35,000 tons
batteries bearing    1 Y Crew=410.
batteries      1 Z TL=12(15).
Passengers=30. Low=720. Cargo=647. Fuel=3640. EP=2800. Agility=6. 
Marines=1000.   Y=51, Z=60

Notes: Ship has frozen watch, scoops, plant.  Has an NH3 fuel system, 
Helson-Canomaar Overdrive jump system, and enhanced output maneuver drive.  
Carries one 30-ton small craft.  Has 1800 ton missile magazine (600 
battery-rounds).  Carries 40 ER missile controllers.  Missiles have 
anti-missile fire control capability.  Has enough fuel for four jumps 
before refueling.  The refit cost MCr22,691.7 and took 48 weeks.

The Series B _Rorke's Drift_ is representative of the other Series B 
refits. An NH3 fuel system was installed, reducing the fuel mass to 52% 
of normal. The newly-developed Helson-Canomaar Overdrive system was also 
added (this was the most expensive single component), reducing the jump 
fuel requirement by a factor of ten. Combined, this allowed a ship to 
jump with 5.2% of the pre-refit fuel requirement.

This enourmous savings in space mostly went to weapons.  Using the 
multi-bay system, which allows more bays than normal to be carried at the 
cost of doubled tonnage requirements for each 'extra' bay, 60 100-ton 
missile bays were added. All missile bays were equipped with anti-missile 
fire control, which allows a missile bay to act as a repulsor bay of 
three factors lower. Also, enough magazine space was added to support ten 
turns of ER missile fire. During the Cluster Liberation War, these ships 
carried exclusively Kinetic Energy missiles. These missiles do damage 
like a nuclear missile, but aren't affected by nuclear dampers and have a 
- -2 penalty to hit. 

The older Series A ships were reactivated late in the CLW, but were used 
primarily to mop up Imperial stragglers. The Series B ships performed 
with distinction during the War, though. Even with the improved nuclear 
dampers and anti-missile fire control, they were still too vulnerable to 
go toe-to-toe with Imperial capital ships--instead, they fired ER 
missiles from beyond the Imperial's range.

The high point of the class' career was the Battle of Pamraeltan. The 
Imperial Naval Base in that system was to be the jumping-off point for 
the Imperial's planned reconquest of the Islands following their initial 
defeats there. They had mustered a sizeable force led by a _Tigress_ 
class battleship. The Alliance Navy had learned of the Imperial plan, and 
launched a preemptive strike on the Imperial fleet as it was being 
assembled. During the ensuing battle, a squadron of _Rorke's Drift_ class 
cruisers fired a single salvo of KE missiles at the Imperial flagship, 
rendering it dead in space and badly damaging its weapons and fuel tanks. 
Before the Imperials could get there flagship to safety, it was destroyed 
by an Alliance planet-buster.

                        Kenneth G. Hagler
 _________________________________________________________________
|            kenhagler@aol.com           |  My insurance company  |
|             (619) 251-0054             |    is Beretta U.S.A.   |
|   PGP 2.3 key available on request     |                        |
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
|   ...study of the military arts will make one who is naturally  |
|   clever more so and one who is born somewhat dull rather less  |
|   so.     --Daidoji Yuzan Shigesuke, _Budo Shoshinshu_          |
|_________________________________________________________________|


------------------------------

Bundle: 619
Archive-Message-Number: 7772
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 19:16:04 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: All: Army and Navy

Gentlesophonts:

Steve Charlton <???> writes:

> In the case of aerospace
> forces, an Imperial task group of whatever size would have some form
> of orbital support fire, and perhaps even cover from carrier-based
> space fighters.

Not necessarily the case.  Naval forces may be forced to jump outsystem
(or at least vector out of orbit) after landing planetary units and before
they are able to retrieve them.  I'd hate to be the planetary commander
who had to fight opposing orbital bombardment and aerospace forces with
only ground forces.  Similarly, I'd hate to have to fight ballistic
missile submarines and orbital satellites with only AFVs or other grav
ground vehicles.

> In addition, high-tech AFVs can be classed as aerospace
> fighters in many respects, maybe slower but with far more firepower.

This is an important point that I think is very difficult for us TL 8
humans to understand.  Distinctions between ground, air and orbital
craft/vehicles will tend to disappear with the advent of contragravity.
I'm not going to argue this from a design rules standpoint (I wouldn't
be able to anyway) but from a philosophical standpoint, at average
stellar tech levels there won't *be* clear distinctions between things
like AFVs and aerospacecraft.  To the extent that we still see such
distinctions I think we are merely falling victim to our experience that
has been limited to things like tanks and fighter planes.

> submersible threat would be more problematic, but I do remember that

> that SDBs and fighters were often based in the oceans.  I would suspect
> that such vessels would have some limited combat ability in the sea.

Yes, but again we are limited by our own concepts of submarines.  The
wet navy material that appeared in *Challenge* was a great start in this
direction.  It showed things like submarines attacking orbital craft
and the like.

I think this acceptance of air, sea and land forces and the subsequent
focus on land forces (which goes all the way back to *Mercenary*) is
way too much 20th Century thinking and not enough 57th(?) Century
thinking.  The next time you think 20th Century experience is relevant
for Traveller planetary combat ask yourself how well a Prussian cavalry
officer might envision a carrier battle group hunting for attack
submarines.

In the Traveller-era I believe there will be two types of military
forces:  space forces (the Navy) and planetary (land/sea/air) forces
(the Army).  There may be some specialized forces like the Marines but
the only command division will be at the point where certain grav
vehicles/craft cannot escape planetary orbit.

The stuff that's appeared on ground forces is good as far as it goes but
I'd like to see a combat force that was equipped to move through several
worlds in a subsector: a water world, a vacuum world, a `garden' world,
and a desert world for starters.  I'll let all you folks with military
experience or inclination decide whether this needs to be a corps or
army or several armies with whatever associated space forces are 
necessary.  Each of these worlds has some sort of planetary and local
space forces but not more than your fleet of several squadrons ought
to be able to deal with if you have the right force composition.

I realize the Imperium doesn't need this sort of flexibility because it
can just lumber along and wait for the appropriate forces to be transported
to the respective worlds but the Imperium is gone.  What kind of forces
is the Regency going to use to chase that Vampire Fleet from behind the
Black Curtain back across Corridor, mopping up or `cleansing' worlds
along the way?

> Anybody who has watched the US Army
> trying to load one armored battalion onto a train will appreciate just
> how long it takes to move such forces, even if some equipment is
> pre-packed or prepositioned.

How long does it take if I have contragravity?  :-)


Cynthia Higginbotham <CHiggin@aol.com> writes:

>     One of the things that happened after High Guard came out was a 
> major change in the sizes and numbers of Naval vessels cruising about. 

> If you are playing in a High 
> Guard/MT/TNE universe, do not take anything from early JTAS or very 
> early supplements about Naval strength as "canonical".

*I'm* certainly the last person to argue over rules (I generally throw
them *all* out) but I don't think it's this cut and dried.  The `1000
ships per sector' and `50-200 ships per numbered [subsector] fleet'
figures are from the *Rebellion Sourcebook*, a MegaTraveller reference.
It was these numbers that I used to estimate the Sword Worlds naval
forces at 42 ships.

The distinction seems to be more of `strategic' focus (fleet compostion
and such per *5FW* and *RS*) versus `tactical' focus (ship tonnages and
the like per *HG*, *TCS* and *TNE*).  I believe this is where the
actual inconsistencies are.

>     I believe that the WAR!  issue of JTAS had designer's notes for 
> 5FW, and how to derive your own defense batallions and SDB strengths.

It was *JTAS* #10 (the `War!' issue was #9).  The article only covers
*ground* (not aersopace or nautical) forces.  There are no corresponding
rules for SDBs or other space forces in *JTAS*.
 
>     Many aspects of Imperial doctrine appear to have be thought up by 
> someone who never played a TCS (or similar Naval warfare) campaign; 
> they just don't work in practice.

This is fine with me.  So what do we do now?  What is the rationale for
accepting the *TCS* or other `tactical' part of the canon *over* the *RS* or
other `strategic' part of the canon?

>     I think that real Imperial Naval officers, who have 10,000 years 
> of space combat experience to draw on, would use doctrines based on 
> that experience, that make sense; therefore, I regard most of what was 
> said regarding Imperial Naval doctrine in JTAS and Challenge as so 
> much hogwash.

You know someone with 10,000 years of space combat experience?  :-)
 

Steve ??? <JSHiggin@aol.com> writes:

> 	More thinly populated???  The SW have around 30 gigapeople in them,
> all reasonably high tech. Regina subsector can only claim about 7
> gigapeople, Rhylanor about 25, Vilis less than 10...

Yes, more thinly populated "than the `average' Imperial subsector".  This
inludes those heavily populated subsectors in the Imperial core.  Regina and
other subsectors in the Spinward Marches are also `frontiers' - they're not
`average' for the Imperium.

> 	Plus, of course, the 50-200 ships per subsector is ridiculously low
> BY TCS STANDARDS.

We've already established this.  Again, what is the rationale for
accepting `tactical' figures from places like *TCS* over `strategic'
figures from *RS* and the like?

> Frankly, any single Tigress could beat up the SW
> Fleet if it is only 40 major combatants...

Even if it had several 200,000 ton battles?  Is this a tech level issue?

> > It may be hard to imagine but it's consist with canonical material.
> 
> 	Do yourself a favour, and learn to ignore canonical material when it
> is clearly pretty stupid.  Regina may have had 10 400T SDBs, but if it
> did, ask yourself "Why?"

What I'm asking is why you choose to accept *TCS* data over *RS* data?

> 	There is no military use for them (any of Neubayern's Flower class
> escorts (of which there were more than a thousand) could take all ten
> SDBs at once.

You're "mixing apples and orange".  Why would I choose to have a *TCS*-
generated aggressor fight a *5FW*-generated defender?

> 	There is no real civilian use for them (other than to let pirates
> run amok through the Regina system) - remember that Regina orbits a gas
> giant, and has a HUGE jump-limit to patrol - thye couldn't patrol it
> adequately with ten of ANYTHING, much less SDBs that are no match for a
> well-equipped pirate.

Let's see what a little creative rationalization can do with this.  I 
postulate one or more fuel refining depots in orbit about the gas giant.
There are strictly controlled traffic corridors between the 100-diameter
jump point, the fuel depots and Regina itself.  85% percent of incoming
traffic and 100% of outgoing traffic passes through these corridors.  Of
course, some `unauthorized' traffic might skirt these corridors but I'm
not worried about protecting them from corsairs anyway.

I came up with this in about 30 seconds.  Give me a couple of weeks and
I'll make those 10 SDBs *invaluable*!  (As long as you don't restrict me
to *5FW* constraints while you use *TCS*.)

> 	There were designer's notes for FFW in one of the Journals...

Again, these only covered *ground* forces.

> 	Au contraire, mon vieux...Impy doctrine (which is frankly idiotic)
> assumes that the battle for the gas giant between the enemy fleet and
> your SDBs will be the crucial part of the defense of any system.

Remember MegaTraveller?  The Imperium only fights for high population
worlds.  In *5FW*, high pop worlds have *hundreds* of SDBs that are able
to match the jump-mobile naval squadrons.  Furthermore, I believe that
*JTAS* said that the 10 Regina SDBs deployed in the gas giant's atmosphere
in order to `harrass' opposing forces.  There was even a rule in the
game for declaring your SDBs `active' or `passive' or some such thing.

> 	Admittedly, this isn't worth a pile of warm spit in terms of Naval
> Doctrine.  I point out, for those who are interested, that in only ONE
> case in my TCS game did a Fleet jump in to a gas giant, rather than
> arriving at the 100 diameter limit of the main world.

What do we have here?  The Cult of the Trillion Credit Squadron?  :-)
I'm not trying to argue what *TCS* says.  What I want to know is *why* I
should ignore *5FW* and *RS* in favor of *HG* and *TCS*?

> 	Faced with defeat by Ihatei?!?   What a concept!!!  I suppose
> Regina's ten 400T SDBs might be faced with defeat by Ihatei, if the
> Ihatei could get in that far, but I find it hard to believe that any
> _important_ Impy force could be defeated by the Ihatei...

More Cult dogma?  The *Rebellion Sourcebook* clearly indicates that most
of Glisten subsector as well as portions of District 268 and Trin's Veil
subsector fell at one point to the *ihatei*.  Once again we see that the
`strategic' viewpoint conflicts with a `tactical' one.  How do we choose,
rationally, between the two?  Can we reconcile them at all?

Finally, I've got a question for all you *TCS* cult members.  Is there any
clear way to identify ship types or classes based upon tonnages?  In other
words, is there some breakdown like:

Battles          100,000+
Cruisers         40,000 - 100,000
Destroyers       5000 - 40,000
Etc.?
(Please don't take issue with my numbers.  I don't have a clue what the
actual values out to be.)

What about types/classes themselves?  Is there some finer breakdown than
battles, cruisers, carriers, escorts, etc.?  Is there a way to tell a
frigate from a destroyer, etc. (besides what the designer choose to call it)?

Peace,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 619
Archive-Message-Number: 7773
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 21:21:11 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: Alt: Earth Colonies NPC

Gentlesophonts:

The following NPC sketch first appeared in *Melbourne Times* #2.  Adelaide
Olowua ought to be adaptable to any campaign with minimal effort.

Personafile: Adelaide Olowua

Adelaide Olowua is a Human female of medium height.  Her features reflect a
strong African-branch influence and are considered attractive by most Humans. 
She keeps her black hair close-cropped.  Her athletic build is somewhat unusual
for one approaching late middle-age but not surprisingly so.

Adelaide usually dresses in close-fitting clothes - she claims they are merely
functional but is acutely aware of their ability to highlight her figure.

Of average strength and endurance, Adelaide is surprisingly agile.  She is
bright and has a great deal of experience from which to draw.  Her position as
a retired merchant captain has offset the negative social affect of being a
free trader.

Adelaide's interests tend to be simple: good food, good drink, good company. 
She enjoys a good story and appreciates good piloting.  She has little
tolerance for authority.  She enjoys playing grav-ball and the rhythm lute. 
She is quiet, but sociable.

Adelaide's allegiance lies with a small group of people: her ship mates, her
family and a few close friends.  She is generally devoted to these people and
will make major efforts to support them.  She withstands trauma well and is
very cool under fire.  She is a respected leader and can lead large groups with
success although she has not yet taken advantage of this ability.  Her own
respect for authority is minimal - a reaction to the restrictive conditions on
her native Nyanza.  Likewise, Adelaide is very tolerant of other viewpoints and
lifestyles.

Born June 21st, 2948, at New Lagos on Nyanza, Adelaide's travel documents still
show Nyanza as her home.  She has not had a permanent home for many years but
uses her mother's address.

Adelaide's father died shortly after she was born.  Her mother, Lily Olowua,
remarried when Adelaide was in her teens.  She has a younger half-brother.  She
herself has been involved with several men but has never been married and has
no children.

Adelaide's friends tend to be ship mates.  Her ship's navigator, the Dolphin
Bolivar Sprayswallower, is a veteran of the Nyanzan Navy, and has served with
her for five years.  Duncan Ishige, her ship's steward, is the son of a friend
from her days at the Academy.  The robot Archimedia, the ship's engineer, was
purchased by Adelaide over four years ago but has since been emancipated. 

Adelaide first met her closest friend, Refuin iks-Louan, over twenty years ago.
She has always had the utmost respect for the Aeroi's mercantile skills and
asked him to join her crew when she became a free trader.

Adelaide has made more than a few enemies, especially among customs officials
in the Ouroran Community.  She has always somehow managed to stay above the
letter of the law, if not the spirit, and thus has avoided any serious trouble
so far.

Service History: Adelaide attended the Victoria Lines Merchant Academy on
Nyanza, receiving her Merchant's Certificate with Honors in 2970.  In addition
to extensive flight training she studied Victoria Lines' administrative
procedures.  Upon graduation she chose service in the Deck Department and was
commissioned as a Fourth Officer.

During her first term Adelaide spent much time dirtside, including a stint at
Victoria Lines Deck Department School.  In addition to the computer and gunnery
skills she learned at the School she did a lot of brawling and carousing in
startown establishments.

Adelaide successfully completed the promotion exam to Third Officer in her
second term.  Many of her assignments were route service in frontier regions
where she spent much of her time performing EVA during orbital operations.

Adelaide's third term was spent at a variety of dirtside posts.  She spent some
time as a vehicle driver and was involved in more than a few fire fights with
smugglers.  She also managed to complete the promotion exam to Second Officer.

Adelaide completed the promotion exam to First Officer early in her fourth term
and was subsequently assigned to Command School.  She was taught standard
merchant legal practices and had an opportunity to learn Victoria Lines ship
tactics.  In her off-hours, she continued to spend her time in the less
reputable areas of startown.  After Command School she was assigned as a pilot.

Command School had been a good move - Adelaide made Captain in her fifth term. 
Now the one responsible for the trade mission, she proved to be a capable
leader.  She also learned some of the more 'underhanded' aspects of merchant
operations.

Adelaide continued to prosper in her sixth term and grew comfortable with the
unpredictable nature of merchant operations.  She also became familiar with the
economic aspects of the business.

Ultimately, Adelaide began to chafe under the strictures of the Lines and
decided to muster out in 2994.  In addition to financial and material benefits
she received possession of her Far Trader Rampart Parabola.  She began the life
of a free trader.

Recent Activities: Adelaide has been plying the space lanes as a free trader
for over six years.  She has managed to maintain a fair profit margin but not
without resorting to more than a few illegal activities.  While she does not
consider herself to be smuggler - she calls it profiteering - many customs
officials would disagree.

As Nyanzan free traders go, Adelaide is something of a shining star.  She has
never resorted to outright piracy and would not do so given the opportunity. 
She considers avoiding duties and regulations to be a matter of course.  Taking
from others is another matter entirely.

The Rampart Parabola has encountered more than a few pirates itself over the
last few years.  Adelaide has been ruthless in these encounters and has so far
avoided any major losses.  In fact, she and her crew have developed something
of a reputation among the pirates of Nyanzan space.

Adelaide is well known for her honest dealings (with brokers and traders) and
is often highly sought after by those who have a cargo that they want shipped
while avoiding any 'official' entanglements.

*****

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 619
Archive-Message-Number: 7774
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 21:24:27 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: Alt: Earth Colonies Library Data

Gentlesophonts:

The following library data first appeared in *Melbourne Times* #2:

Discovery Service: The exploration and missionary service of the Abrahamic
Synod.  The Discovery Service has primary responsibility for survey of new
systems as well as for contact with new cultures.  The Scouts of the Discovery
Service are renown throughout the Colonies Sphere for their scientific and
surveying skills.  The Discovery Service has also proven quite effective in
spreading the Abrahamic faith among the new peoples contacted.  It has shown
greater success in gaining new members for its State than has any other scout
service.  Primarily because of this record of success the Discovery Service has
been banned by most Colonial States from conducting operations on their
respective worlds.  Discovery Service teams are generally welcome on
independent worlds due to their extensive record of aid to developing worlds.

General Hulls and Drives: The largest corporation in the Commonwealth, General
is the largest manufacturer of starships in the Colonies Sphere.  General
builds all classes of starships from private yachts to naval battleships at
shipyards on both Commonwealth and independent worlds.  In addition to its
manufacturing operations, General is a major insurer in Commonwealth space. 
The company also has extensive holdings in the chemicals (primarily jump fuels)
and mineral processing industries.

ikrahanbe: Aeroi meditative state commonly used as a means of focusing
intellectual effort on a particular problem.  Often used during trade
negotiations, the technique involves the complete encirclement of the Aeroi by
its membranous wings in concert with a semi-conscious mental state.  The
process seldom lasts more than a few minutes.  After emerging from ikrahanbe,
Aeroi are usually able to present a proposal that is agreeable to all parties
concerned.  The technique is sometimes unsettling to non-Aeroi who confuse it
with some sort of psionic talent.  The Aeroi claim the process is strictly
internal to the practitioner and several independent examinations have failed
to detect any evidence of psionic activity.

*****

Happy Travelling,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 619
Archive-Message-Number: 7775
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 22:41:14 EDT
From: wesley@hd62.haledorr.com (Wesley Esser)






         Hi guys - 
              All this talk about naval forces etc set me thinking, so I
         decided to do an analysis of the class A starports in the Domain
         ca 1120.  The original list had some 95 starports, which I broke
         down by tech level.  This gave me the following info:

         TL     No of Stpts    Total Cap    %Cap
         G         1           12.0 MTons    %8
         F         9           47.5         %31
         E        11            3.5          %3
         D        10           26.5         %17
         C        14           31.0         %20 
         B        22           25.0         %16
         A        12            8.0          %5
         9        11             .004        <%.01
         8         4             .3          <%.5

         Total Cap=Total Shipbuilding capacity in millions of displacement
         tonnes, per the TCS guidelines (peacetime)

         %Cap=Percentage of total capacity for this category (may not =100
         due to rounding)


         In other words, the majority of the class A starports are TL12 or
         less (%64), but the bulk of the shipbuilding capacity is at TL13
         or greater (%59).  In fact, over 1/3 of the shipbuilding capacity
         of the Domain is TL15 or above!  I don't know about anyone else,
         but this suprised me - it hardly jiibes with the "rude frontier"
         image that people sometimes have about the Domain.  It does
         however explain how the Domain could survive at a high tech level:
         it actually has a strong, high tech industrial base.

         I did some more analysis of these worlds, sorting out those worlds
         that have significant shipbuilding capacity (1 million tons +) to
         get the following list:

         World            Capacity      %Total  Min   Maj

         Vicennes         12             8      3k    60
         Magash            8             5      2k    40
         Glisten           8.8           6      2.2k  44
         Rhylanor          7.2           5      1.8k  36
         Mora             12             8      3k    60
         Trin             11.5           8      2.8k  58
         Pallique          3             2       .75k 15
         Efate             7.2           5      1.8k  36
         Lunion            8.8           6      2.2k  44
         Strouden          9.9           7      2.5k  50
         Jewell            6.9           5      1.7k  35
         Fornice          22            15      5.5k 110
         Perrior           3             2       .75k 15
         Porozlo          20            14      5.0k 100
         Marz              1.1           1       .3k   6
         Vilis             6.8           5      1.7k  34

         Capacity=Total Shipbuilding capacity in millions of displacement
         tonnes, per the TCS guidelines (peacetime)
         %Total=Percentage of total capacity for this category (may not
         =100 due to rounding)
         Min=Minor Combatants (ca 1000tons)
         Maj=Major Combatants (ca 50000tons)


         These figures are taken from the TCS budget info posted by Ken
         Hagler, with the total atarport capacity figured as follows %25
         devoted to minor combatants (avg 1000 T), 25% major combatants
         (avg 50000 T), and %50 allocated to civil ship construction.

         This gives an annual construction rate of almost 750 major ships/
         year, with nearly 60 million tons at TL15+.  This translates into
         300 major combatants *PER YEAR*..

         What this seems to imply is that the MT figure of 1000 ships per
         sector is a limit imposed by Imperial Policy, not by the
         limitations on planetary economies.   The actual number of ships
         would be determined by a number of factors:  

         1.   Basic nature of the interstellar government (i.e.,
         militaristic alla The Sword Worlds, or pacfistic, or somewhere in
         between).
         2.   The budget of the interstellar government for maintenance.
         As a quick rule of thumb, I would allow 1/2 of the TCS budget for
         the planet to be used for maintenance, the rest going to upgrading
         and new ships.
         3.   The current political situation - a government at war, or on
         the brink of war, would allocate more resources to weapon
         building.
         4.   Other more pressing uses for shipbuilding capacity,
         (exploration services such as the Zho Core expeditions, patrol
         services such as the Quarentine, orcommercial use)
         5.   The useful life of a starship - the longer they last the
         easier it is to maintain a larger fleet.

              I think this may shed some light on the continuing discussion
         about the Sword Worlds.  The Sword Worlds will have to spend a
         fairly large portion of their planetary budgets on the maintenance
         of their fleets, and will thus be operating on a sort of "cold
         war" budget (sound familiar?).  This might be the mechanism behind
         the proposed "boom-bust" cycles.  The converse would be true for
         the Imperium (and Domain).  A much smaller portion of the whole
         economy would be devoted to military ends, and a larger portion
         would be available for development purposes, both public and
         private.  This would keep the econonmic development on a more even
         keel, and could be the reason that the "boom-bust" is not seen in
         the Imperium.  With it's isolation and the burden of maintaining
         the Quarentine, the Regency might start to experiance the same
         kind of effect.  Perhaps this is the "overheating" mentioned in
         TNE.

         As for using the PoT formulae (which I like conceptually), the
         figures that were posted last week were wrong...the thing that was
         missed was the population multiplier.  On a Pop 8 world, the
         multiplier is .2, at Pop 9 it is .03, and at Pop A it is .004!  In
         other words, a world whose population is an order of magnitude
         higher than another will not necessarily have a corrispondingly
         large space force.  In practice, this gives worlds like Efate,
         with a Pop of 9, a fleet of major combattants in the teens (I
         don't have the figures in front of me now, sorry)
         I think the PoT figures work great for the Wilds, where there
         shouldn't be too many worlds with huge relic fleets (otherwise
         what makes the RC any better?)  I bet you could modify the
         formulae pretty easily, but I prefer to leave the ref room to make
         some decisions about absolute fleet sizes, while having guidlines
         of the maximum possible numbers of ship.

         Ok...so there's my two centicredits worth...


        Wes Esser
        wesley@hd62.haledorr.com


------------------------------

Bundle: 619
Archive-Message-Number: 7776
From: bucsek@oo.com (John Bucsek)
Subject: Reformation Coalition Equipment Guide
Date: Wed, 25 May 94 23:59:35 EST

Yes, the 3rd Reformation Coalition Manual is out!  The Reformation Coalition
Equipment Guide is now available for $20.00.  Is it worth it?  Yes, if you're
a user of FF&S.  The RCEG has a lot of good designs for all players and NPC's.
It covers equipment used by the RC, the Guild, and planets in the wilds.
 
Basically it is broken down into four types of equipment.  Equipment
(resporators, armor, drop capsules, etc), Weapons, Vehicles, and Spacecraft.
The equipment is further categorized by availability (RC, Relic, Guild, Wilds,
Hivers). 
 
Finally, there is a four page FF&S rules expansion in the back.  Modules and
Pods are added to spacecraft design.  Floatation screens to ground vehicle
design, Grav belts to lift vehicle design.  For Aircraft design, further notes
for compound helicopters are added as are aircraft modifications for other
planetary environments. (How to compromise your design so that it works in
Thin atmospheres as well as your native standard atmosphere).  
 
For small arms, Dual-feed receivers, Modular small arms, and overpowered
cartridges are dealt with.  For high-energy weapons, Rapid-fire High-energy
weapons are added, Plasma and fusion bazookas are added, and the question of
concussion and burst of high-energy weapons is answered.  In Munitions,
guidance and missile design is added.  Shotgun and Flechette rounds for
Grenade Launchers are added.  A New Rule is added for projectile weapons with
a penetration of Nil.  And in Misc. some details of Workstations and Labs, and
Hatches and Rates or Troop Egress are dealt with.

Whew!... A lot a rule for just four pages but if any of those area are things
that you are designing with FF&S then you will want RCEG.

All in all it is a good source of equipment for the busy GM.  There are even a
few adventure ideas for dealing with relic equipment buried in the
descriptions.

Other Impressions.  Lots of decent artwork.  Most equipment has a picture to
go with it.  Eight full color plates of the equipment in use.  

What I miss.  DECKPLANS!  One thing I loved about CT was the detail level of
standard starships.  That seemed to be farmed out with MT and is nonexistant
with TNE.  Maybe they will finally appear in the Personalities of the
Reformation Coalition supplement, but I won't hold my breath.
 
John Bucsek
bucsek@oo.com


------------------------------

Bundle: 619
Archive-Message-Number: 7777
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 00:22:18 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <sudet@well.sf.ca.us>
Subject: Polisotechnic League/Nicholas van Rijn

Mitchell Schwartz recently indicated that the Polisotechnic League and
Nichholas van Rijn stories were written by Piers Anthony.  In fact, Poul
Anderson wrote them.  Anderson's work obviously inspired the creators of
Traveller (see especially the books about Dominic Flandry--Ensign Flandry,
Captain Flandry, etc.).  I think we as referees can be inspired by his
writing today, no matter background we're using.

------------------------------

Bundle: 619
Archive-Message-Number: 7778
Date: Thu, 26 May 94 04:09:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: re: ... ship types or classes ...
From: Edward_Swatschek@mindlink.bc.ca (Edward Swatschek)

David Johnson wrote:

> Finally, I've got a question for all you *TCS* cult members.  Is there
> any clear way to identify ship types or classes based upon tonnages?  In
> other words, is there some breakdown like:
>
> Battles          100,000+
> Cruisers         40,000 - 100,000
> Destroyers       5000 - 40,000
> Etc.?
> (Please don't take issue with my numbers.  I don't have a clue what the
> actual values out to be.)
>
> What about types/classes themselves?  Is there some finer breakdown than
> battles, cruisers, carriers, escorts, etc.?  Is there a way to tell a
> frigate from a destroyer, etc. (besides what the designer choose to call
> it)?


   I based my fighting-ship classifications on the spinal mount.
Battleships would have the largest SMs for their TL, cruisers the smallest,
and escorts/destroyers would only have bay and turret weapons.  Ships from
lower TLs tended to be larger than equivalent higher TL classes - my
philosophy was to wrap the smallest hull around the SM I could.  Finer
gradations were based on secondary weapons or performance (lots of
missiles, high accelleration, heavy armour, etc.).  Then there are
fighters, but I never could see a lot of use for them in space combat.

This all applies to MT; I haven't designed enough ships to get a feel for
TNE ships.


- --
               Edjs                    _
              ------                _ //  CI$  : 76427,662
   Edward_Swatschek@mindlink.bc.ca  \X/   GEnie: E.SWATSCHEK


------------------------------

Bundle: 619
Archive-Message-Number: 7779
From: Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
Subject: TCS vs. FFW
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 08:12:58 -0400 (ADT)

David Johnson and Cynthia Higginbotham are engaging in a rather acrimonious
dispute over which version of Traveller reality we should use to visualize
fleet conditions in the Imperium.

I haven't got time for a detailed answer, but you have to start on the
basis of accepting that there is no way that 5FW can be reconciled with
TCS.  Once you get past that, the reason for not accepting 5FW as the
model is this:  The ship levels in 5FW are way too low for any reasonable
bottom up estimate based on population or economic activity.  

Take Glisten as an example: Glisten is inhabited (according to the Imperial
Encyclopedia data) by about 8 billion people.  If they were responsbile for
the maintenance of the entire "average subsector" fleet, neglecting any
contributions by the other worlds in the subsector, 42 ships with an
average crew of 1000 (probably a bit high remembering the mix of ships from
Supplement 9) would represent .0005% of the population.  Even with a
thousand support personnel for each crew member (I hope you will agree that
is an unthinkable level of bureaucracy!), that would still be less than
half a percent of the population.  If those 42 ships had an average displacment
of 50,000 tons, typical High Guard designs would give them a cost of about
50,000 MCr, which means that each of the 8 billion people would have con-
tributed about Cr260 to build them--over a ten year period (or more).  This
would work out to be an annual tax burden of 26/12000 for the average starship
steward, 2/10 of one percent, and less than that for a more highly skilled 
worker.  Retirees could easily pay it out of their pensions. (-:  If the
Imperium was seriously interested in defending itself, it would spend more
money.  Likewise, serious attackers could easily spend more than a fraction
of a percent of the annual wages of their populations, so the 5FW numbers
are not reasonable.

I agree with Steve Higginbotham, who said that 5FW was best viewed as a
"simplified" representation of the "real" world, since no one would want to
push 10,000 counters around.

Rob Dean
(stirring in his long hibernation)
 

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Date: Sun, 29 May 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #620: Msgs 7780-7787 
Approved: by traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin) Sun May 29 22:00:04 EDT 1994
Reply-To: traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Submissions)
Errors-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Precedence: bulk

TML bundles come from the archives maintained by
traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 29 May 94 22:00:05 EDT
From: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Admin)
Subject: TML bundle #620: Table of Contents

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 620  7780 25-May-1994 J Roberson       Gun From Hell << >This weapon is the Ma
 620  7781 25-May-1994 J Roberson       Military Musings << >The next time you 
 620  7782 26-May-1994 rancke@diku.dk   TCS vs. 5FW << David Johnson writes:
 620  7783 26-May-1994 Peter H. Brento  TNE:Blaster Rifle from Tariq...... << I
 620  7784 26-May-1994 "Les Howie"      Ship Designations << djohnson@geds01.js
 620  7785 26-May-1994 Steven M Bonnev  Just Detected -- RCEG (Review) << The _
 620  7786 26-May-1994 CHiggin@aol.com  TCS, Rebellion Sourcebook,class << As u
 620  7787 24-May-1994 Jeff Zeitlin     74:20/7740 RICE Paper dis << Subject: 7

------------------------------

Bundle: 620
Archive-Message-Number: 7780
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 19:13:25 -0600
From: RJR96326@vax1.utulsa.edu (J Roberson)
Subject: Gun From Hell

>This weapon is the Magnum Bolt Rifle.  It is compact,  at 60cm and
>beefy at about 6.8 kg loaded. A fat weapon.

A heavy weapon. I say if you're going to do it, go all the way and make it
a squad support weapon, with a belt feed and longer barrel.

>At 60cm its short enough to be a sort of heavy blaster.  It fires a round that
>>has as its base a 20mm x 32mm Straight ETC cartridge.

20mm???? This is not a personal weapon! If anything, it would take the
modern grenade launcher's role.

Calling it a "heavy blaster" IMHO conjures up Han Solo dashing thorugh
Imperial corridors with a large energy handgun. THis thing is what squad
leaders use to bust a fortified position before rushing forward.

>The rules bending is this.  One of the available ammo aside from Heap and
>DS is a Plasma Pulse Cartridge that sits on the end of the ETC
>cartridge.  It is ballistic tipped.  The ETC cartridge initiates the
>"reaction" in the PPC.  A micro piezo electric fuze in the ballistic cap
>discharges the plasma stream upon impact.

Sounds to me like a very unstable weapon, especially if it jams (I don't
have FF&S but the reality checking says: it may jam and blow up in your
face when the plasma just *has* to go).

>Don't ask me how it works.

Too bad. I'm asking. The gun initiates the reaction. The fuse releases it.
What if the round cooks off prematurely? Where does the energy go? What if
nearby electromagnetic interference sets it off?

>It is in effect a ballistically
>delivered plasma pulse.

The round would have to include a little magnetic force-tunnel thingy to
project the plasma forward properly. Otherwise it would go splat and
vaporize everything around it, rather than focusing on the target.

>You get the range of a slug weapon
>with the Pen of a Plasma weapon.

This may be the range of a sidearm but this thing is more than a sidearm,
and doesn't come close to the range of a proper battlefield rifle.

>a rifle firing 20mm x 32 mm Heap ammo can do.

That is not a rifle. That is a Very Heavy Machinefun or a Light Autocannon.

>Battle Dress trooper at TL 10 coming down and seeing these guys in
>T-Shirts with some short compact weapon and while theyre laughing hearing a

Unless of course he fires a weapon with greater accuracy at range and kills
the fools who wear no armor. If he's really paranoid, he calls in an
orbital mesopn strike. Have a nice day. ;)

Creativity over Originality.
Consistency is a Flaw.
J Roberson      RJR96326@vax1.utulsa.edu        Priss@io.com





------------------------------

Bundle: 620
Archive-Message-Number: 7781
Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 19:13:32 -0600
From: RJR96326@vax1.utulsa.edu (J Roberson)
Subject: Military Musings

>The next time you think 20th Century experience is relevant
>for Traveller planetary combat ask yourself how well a Prussian cavalry
>officer might envision a carrier battle group hunting for attack
>submarines.

Or more appropriately, consider what a member of a Mesoptomanian militiaman
would make of the over-the-horizon high-speed death that characterizes so
much of warfare today. I refer you to GDW's Harpoon game and the satellite
scene from *Patriot Games*.

While I agree that there will be a consolidation of forces, there will
always be those vehicles that, when restricted to a single environment,
will still have a substantial edge over those that are not.  Take a grav
tank, for example. Yes, it can fly, but if the design only accounts for
low-level flight and not intercontinental transit, think of how much more
armor and payload it can carry without the extra thruster plates, fuel, or
whatever. Ther will always be room for specialization.

Creativity over Originality.
Consistency is a Flaw.
J Roberson      RJR96326@vax1.utulsa.edu        Priss@io.com





------------------------------

Bundle: 620
Archive-Message-Number: 7782
From: rancke@diku.dk
Subject: TCS vs. 5FW
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 15:57:55 +0100 (METDST)

David Johnson writes:
>*I'm* certainly the last person to argue over rules (I generally throw
>them *all* out) but I don't think it's this cut and dried.  The `1000
>ships per sector' and `50-200 ships per numbered [subsector] fleet'
>figures are from the *Rebellion Sourcebook*, a MegaTraveller reference.
>It was these numbers that I used to estimate the Sword Worlds naval
>forces at 42 ships.
> 
>The distinction seems to be more of `strategic' focus (fleet compostion
>and such per *5FW* and *RS*) versus `tactical' focus (ship tonnages and
>the like per *HG*, *TCS* and *TNE*).  I believe this is where the
>actual inconsistencies are.
 
And:
>This is fine with me.  So what do we do now?  What is the rationale for
>accepting the *TCS* or other `tactical' part of the canon *over* the *RS* 
>or other `strategic' part of the canon?

Analyse the economic strength of the 30 billion people in the Sword Worlds. 
Assign what you think is a reasonable sum of money per citizen for them to 
spend on their yearly naval budget (assume 1 credit hasthe buying power of
a US $). Now see how many naval vessels you can buy for that. Decide what
part of the initial purchase price it will cost to operate a ship. 1/20th?
1/10th? 1/5th? Whatever you decide, multiply the number of ships in the
fleet by the inverse number. Now match the figure you arrive at against 
the figure TCS gives you and against the 42 battleships _RS_ gives you.
Which is closest? By how many orders of magnitude?

>Steve ??? <JSHiggin@aol.com> writes:

Welcome back, Steve. You've been missed.
  
>>	More thinly populated???  The SW have around 30 gigapeople in them,
>>all reasonably high tech. Regina subsector can only claim about 7
>>gigapeople, Rhylanor about 25, Vilis less than 10...

Just a side note: I checked the numbers for Regina just today and they work 
out at roughly 77 billion.

>> 	Plus, of course, the 50-200 ships per subsector is ridiculously low
>>BY TCS STANDARDS.
> 
>We've already established this.  Again, what is the rationale for
>accepting `tactical' figures from places like *TCS* over `strategic'
>figures from *RS* and the like?

They fit better.

>What I'm asking is why you choose to accept *TCS* data over *RS* data?

They make more sense.

>You're "mixing apples and orange".  Why would I choose to have a *TCS*-
>generated aggressor fight a *5FW*-generated defender?

If you accept the rationale that _5FW_ is a board game with other priorities
than _TCS_ then you certainly needen't. If you try to fit them all into a
coherent whole you need to address these discrepancies. GDW claims that 
BOTH_TCS_ and _5FW_ are based on the same reality. A few simple calculations 
show that that can't be true. Now what?

>What do we have here?  The Cult of the Trillion Credit Squadron?  :-)
>I'm not trying to argue what *TCS* says.  What I want to know is *why* I
>should ignore *5FW* and *RS* in favor of *HG* and *TCS*?

They seem more likely.

>> 	Faced with defeat by Ihatei?!?   What a concept!!!  I suppose
>>Regina's ten 400T SDBs might be faced with defeat by Ihatei, if the
>>Ihatei could get in that far, but I find it hard to believe that any
>>_important_ Impy force could be defeated by the Ihatei...
> 
>More Cult dogma?  The *Rebellion Sourcebook* clearly indicates that most
>of Glisten subsector as well as portions of District 268 and Trin's Veil
>subsector fell at one point to the *ihatei*.  

And you just the other day agreed with me that the only faintly reasonable
explanation for this is that the Imperials blundered massively and didn't
fight the ihatei with anything approaching an important Impy force. (And
even then I just can't accept the defeat of Tobia). 

>Once again we see that the
>`strategic' viewpoint conflicts with a `tactical' one.  How do we choose,
>rationally, between the two?  Can we reconcile them at all?

Both tactically and strategically the ihatei are in deep shit if they poke
their furry muzzles across the 4-5 parsec gap that seperates the spinward 
3/4th of Trojan Reaches from the coreward 1/4th.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir


------------------------------

Bundle: 620
Archive-Message-Number: 7783
Date: Thu, 26 May 94 09:11:25 CDT
From: Peter H. Brenton <pete@biochem.uchicago.edu>
Subject: TNE:Blaster Rifle from Tariq......

I like it.

I think you need to consider some more design issues, and some game balance
issues.

First, the PPC cartridge is going to be smaller than a conventional ETC round
from the same barrel.  This is because you will need a "container" to
direct the force of the plasma bolt that is bigger or thicker than a 
corresponding HEAP cartridge casing.  I still think it would be a nasty weapon
but this will help bring it down a notch.

Which leads handily to my next issue.  Cardinal rule: anything the NPCs get
the PC will get eventually.  Give *them* a compact weapon capable of defeating
battle dress (and light vehicle armor???) and your in trouble.  Make sure that 
there are some limiting factors; I would make the range very short ("due to
the extreme weight of the round"), the cost per round very high, and/or the
recoil very high.  A fully automatic version would be right out.

Ok so much for the voice of reason.  Now think about this; why have the bolt 
go off on impact?  seems to me you could do some serious area damage with the 
addition of a simple proximity fuse, or a timer fuse which causes the round to
go off at a set distance from the barrel.  It would act a bit like a plasma
shotgun; the round leaves the barrel at 400 m/s, at 20m it goes off-creating an
effect like there was a plasma-gunner standing there.  I would go for a more 
diffuse bolt which attacked a cone, use the rules for flechettes but with 
the "fragments" being hot plasma.  I wouldn't dare to guess a damage after
sermonizing above.

Pete

------------------------------

Bundle: 620
Archive-Message-Number: 7784
Date: Thu, 26 May 94 11:23:25 ADT
From: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@192.219.29.90>
Reply-To: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@Prograph.Com>
Subject: Ship Designations

djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson) wrote:

>Finally, I've got a question for all you *TCS* cult members.  Is there any
>clear way to identify ship types or classes based upon tonnages?  In other
>words, is there some breakdown like:
>
>Battles          100,000+
>Cruisers         40,000 - 100,000
>Destroyers       5000 - 40,000
>Etc.?
>(Please don't take issue with my numbers.  I don't have a clue what the
>actual values out to be.)
>
>What about types/classes themselves?  Is there some finer breakdown than
>battles, cruisers, carriers, escorts, etc.?  Is there a way to tell a
>frigate from a destroyer, etc. (besides what the designer choose to call it)?

I am hardly a TLC cultist, but I do have an answer for that one: NO.

The current nomenclature game into being between the introduction of steam and
the turn of the century, and it was intended as a set of functional designations

Battleships were the "ships of force" able to stand up to other battleships.

Cruisers were light ships with long legs, able to serve as the "eyes" of a 
battle force, or take on extended patrolling for commerce raiding/protection
or force projection.

Destroyers were designed to destroy enemy torpedo boats -- that is, provide 
a defensive screen for the battle fleet.

There were a selection of minor types, but that was the core, and with the 
exception of a few new types (the Fleet and Escourt Carriers) it held through
WWII.  After that, everything went to hell in a handbasket.

Ship designations since the start of the cold war have had a lot to do with
the politics of defence appropriations and nothing to do with function (which
is why Destroyers now do extended patrols, Agis cruisers provide zone defence,
and Janes lists submarines first among a nation's naval assets.)

In Traveller, it is even madder - witness the Patrol, Mercenary, and Kinunir
"Cruisers" in the same universe with the "Azanti High Lightning".  In my HG
designs I always tried for the WWI functional designations -- but when I 
start FF&S design, I plan to stuff the whole mess for a new set of functional
designations that have some relation to real tactical employment.


Les Howie
Prograph International


------------------------------

Bundle: 620
Archive-Message-Number: 7785
Date: Thu, 26 May 1994 09:54:09 -0500
From: bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu (Steven M Bonneville)
Subject: Just Detected -- RCEG (Review)


The _Reformation Coalition Equipment Guide_ has hit the stores.

Quick comments and first impressions:

* The art in TNE is really beginning to irritate me.  Nearly every
  page has some space wasted with the rococo and worthless TNE
  pseudo-computer borders.  There's a @#$*#$& POWER SWITCH at the
  top of a lot of the pages, and I just wish it were functional so
  I could turn off the damn art.

  There's also an 8 page color spread in the middle with the, IMHO,
  mediocre to bad drawings of RCES going about their "duties", as
  so often seen in Challenge.  IMHO, a waste of four-color ink.
  A better choice would have been something like the color vehicle
  paint drawings in the T:2000 vehicle supplements, which were far
  superior in artistic merit and were useful and relevant to the
  supplement, and often enlightening in themselves.

  Some of the equipment drawings are useful.  A bright spot in the
  book's art design are the drawings of two TL14 Ithkluri weapons.
  The Hiver ships shown look like shoeboxes.  I'm trying to forgive
  in the interest of promoting alien psychology in ship design,
  but the picture of the Hiver Utility Vehicle landed on a moon
  looks very unrealistically bad.  I can deal with boxes in the
  vaccuum of space, but where's the landing legs?  The Schalli
  battle-dress looks like it escaped from _Battletech_.  Stats
  for an _Aliens_ style cargo handler are given on a battle
  dress page, but it's easy to miss because there's no art for
  it, and it's in a corner.  Shame, shame -- major art and 
  marketing oversight, IMHO, here.  (How do I know?  One of the
  color plates shows an odd variant of it.)

* The subtle and not so subtle Imperium-bashing can get a bit
  heavy for old-timers who remember what it was like even at
  it's worst.  I get the impression that the RC thinks that
  it is desigining equipment that was overlooked by the fallen
  civilization (the Imperial idiots!).  I may be reading more
  into this than is really deliberately there.

* Some new FFS rules are introduced.  The RC seems to be somewhat
  confused about the difference between a grav belt and a G-tube
  or grav bike.  Also, grav belt propulsion by ducted propellor
  somehow bothers me -- I liked the grav belt on the cover of the
  MT _Imperial Encyclopedia_.  There is no such thing as a "two
  man grav belt" -- that thing is a bedframe grav bike.  Some
  interesting musings on how gravitic fields work, and what
  happens when you stick a weapon or your arm outside the grav
  belt's field.

* Every time they say that independents have trouble getting RC
  body sleeves, I ask, "Why would they want one?"  I miss the 
  IISS TL15 uniform vacc suits, which made the IISS look more
  like professionals, IMHO, and less like superheros in their
  long-johns.  There's a very comic book feel to TNE in the RC,
  and if I wanted to play in the comic books, I'd play _V&V_ or
  _Champions_ or the like.  I don't.  This goes back to art.
  Ditto for the battle dress -- especially the light model that
  looks like the poor fool is wearing a corset.  Now Imperial,
  Solomani, or Zhodani battle dress from MT and previous -- 
  those are much more interesting. 

* The info included seems more useful.  There are some equipment
  designs, a lot of weapon designs with associated rounds and
  magazines, and a fair number of vehicle and starship designs.
  Modules for the _Auroras_ are included.  A TNE _Trepida_ is
  included, designated by the RC as _Intrepid_ (they thought
  the Imperial designation was inappropriate.)  The companion
  _Astrin_ APC is not included, nor the ballistic vehicle 
  re-entry system the IMC used, which seems like it would be
  a good candidate for inclusion, considering the uses intended
  for this supplement.  (Admittedly, we haven't seen that system
  spelled out in stats yet in the game.)  A MT-era Solomani design
  for a "grav tank" called the _Chariot_ is included, here called
  the _Pyrrhus_ since it isn't really a MBT grav tank, and if
  used like one....  The art used for it is familiar, but I
  don't know if the _Chariot_ was in DGP's _101 Vehicles_, or
  if they're just reusing the picture for, say, the Gram grav
  tank.

  Also, comments in the text indicate that the Hive Federation
  is able to equip its' Ithkluri Marines at TL 14 already, and
  that they are *exporting* TL 13 parts to the RC.  DGP stated
  that the Federation was at TL 15/16 before the Rebellion
  (marginally superior to the Imperium), and since the only
  damage they suffered was due to the Collapse itself, I suspect
  the Federation is well on its' way to becoming the pre-eminent
  technological and trading power in Charted Space.

Summary.  I'm still a bit unsettled about this one.  If I get it,
it will only be to strip out the useful stuff and chuck the bizarre.
I've never seen a book so putatively realistic that gave me such
a sense of unreality.  Your milage may vary -- I'd like to hear
other people's opinions, especially the newer players.  


  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@mermaid.micro.umn.edu>


------------------------------

Bundle: 620
Archive-Message-Number: 7786
From: CHiggin@aol.com
Date: Thu, 26 May 94 11:01:50 EDT
Subject: TCS, Rebellion Sourcebook,class


As usual, most of my arguments are with Dave Johnson... :-)

From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)

>I think this acceptance of air, sea and land forces and the subsequent
>focus on land forces (which goes all the way back to *Mercenary*) is
>way too much 20th Century thinking and not enough 57th(?) Century
>thinking.  

    Yep.  Blame GDW...  they could have modeled Classic Traveller on 
Star Wars, or Star Trek, both of which show signs of thinking 
"futuristic", but instead went with "1970s with Starships"...  

>The next time you think 20th Century experience is relevant
>for Traveller planetary combat ask yourself how well a Prussian cavalry
>officer might envision a carrier battle group hunting for attack
>submarines.

    He would quite rightly suggest that it was the province of the 
Navy, not the cavalry, to envision such things...  

    If you think the modern or future world has nothing to learn from 
the military geniuses of the past, why is Sun Tzu's "Art of War" 
required reading for U.S.  Marine officers?  (I have read Sun Tzu; 
much of his commentary is timeless.)  


>Yes, but again we are limited by our own concepts of submarines.  The

    I'm not; I watched "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea" as a kid.  
:-) I still think the Flying Sub was neat...  

>This is fine with me.  So what do we do now?  What is the rationale for
>accepting the *TCS* or other `tactical' part of the canon *over* the *RS* or
>other `strategic' part of the canon?

    A) personal preference.
    B) TCS is based on world economies directly; given X people at 
Techno-Economic Level Y, you get X*Y*C credits to play with.  Make up 
and apply a good thumb-rule for translating credits to number of hulls 
at Z tons each, based on known prices of ships as listed in the rules.  
Poof, you have a number of ships per region (sub-sector, sector, 
square foobars) that is consistant with the rest of the rules (i.e., 
makes sense).  The Rebellion Sourcebook stuff seems to be a lot of 
"we'll pull an even number out of thin air and write it down...".  

    On the other hand, for poltical reasons, the Imperium may be 
building a lot fewer ships than it is capable of...  (a) most of its 
yard production may be in mercantile shipping (the "phantom" bulk 
haulers once discussed on the TML), (b) member worlds may be 
exploiting the advantage of being in a large Imperium:  an Imperium 
needs fewer ships to defend its borders than the sum of the ships each 
member world would need to defend itself.  Therefore, member worlds 
need spend much less tax money and build fewer non-producer
(military) vessels than an independent world would.  Note that both
arguments assume that both TCS & RS numbers are valid in the same
universe.
    The objection to this argument is that if argument (b) is true, 
the Imperial economy should be booming...  so why do we have so many 
worlds with the Techno-economic levels of banana republics?  And, the 
numbers given in 5FW and RS sources are *TOO* low to defend the 
borders of the Imperium, even with the size advantage -- not when one 
independent world can produce a big enough fleet to seriously threaten 
the entire Spinward Marches, IF the Spinward Marches fleets are as 
small as suggested in RS.  

    You could also argue that *only* 5FW & RS numbers are valid; I 
simply cannot stomach that.  When GWP (Gross World Product) CAN be 
estimated based on listed population and required standards-of-living 
from the MegaTraveller rules, and ship construction costs are known 
from the same rules (likewise, both facts can be ascertained in CT 
rules), IT MAKES NO SENSE for worlds to build a tiny fraction of the 
Navy they are capable of building, especially when their "lives, 
fortunes and sacred honor" are threatened by (pick one) Imperial 
conquest, Zho conquest, Sword World raiders, Vargr raiders, Solomani 
conquest, K'kree militant vegetarianism, etc, etc, etc.  

>> I think that real Imperial Naval officers, who have 10,000
>>years of space combat experience to draw on, would use doctrines
>>based on that experience, that make sense; therefore, I regard most
>>of what was said regarding Imperial Naval doctrine in JTAS and
>>Challenge as so much hogwash.

>You know someone with 10,000 years of space combat experience?  :-)

    You're being silly.  I can go to my bookcase and pull out two 
military works by generals dead over 2000 years, both from Empires 
that have undergone worse "Dark Ages" and worse Tech Level losses than 
space-faring humanity ever did in Traveller...  The Vilani have been 
spacefaring for 10,000 years, and fighting other spacefarers for a 
signficant fraction of that.  Add in Aslan military history (2000 
years), Terran military history (3000+ years), Zhodani, Vargr, and 
K'kree military history (several more thousands of years), and you 
have one hell of a huge body of "Theory and Practice of Interstellar 
Warfare".  

    I quote you:  "way too much 20th Century thinking and not enough 
57th(?)  Century thinking."  You are forgetting the sheer weight of 37 
centuries... for Terran humanity alone.  How much have we (Real World)
learned about the Art of War in 3700 years?  A lot.  How much have we 
forgotten?  None.  In a Dark Age, the Art and Technology of War is the
one thing that advances, rather than declining...


>We've already established this.  Again, what is the rationale for
>accepting `tactical' figures from places like *TCS* over `strategic'
>figures from *RS* and the like?

You asked this already.  In the same letter.  See above.

>What I'm asking is why you choose to accept *TCS* data over *RS* 
>data?

I understand that.  Read this letter.

>What do we have here?  The Cult of the Trillion Credit Squadron?
>:-) I'm not trying to argue what *TCS* says.  What I want to know is
>*why* I should ignore *5FW* and *RS* in favor of *HG* and *TCS*?

    There is *at least* a one-day "jump lag" between you posting a 
letter, and all the responses to it coming in.... and you asked this 
question already.

>More Cult dogma?  The *Rebellion Sourcebook* clearly indicates that 
>most of Glisten subsector as well as portions of District 268 and 
>Trin's Veil subsector fell at one point to the *ihatei*.  Once again
>we see that the `strategic' viewpoint conflicts with a `tactical' 
>one. How do we choose, rationally, between the two?  Can we reconcile
>them at all?

    You've seen Hans' opinions about the Ihatei doing anything in 
Glisten or Trin's Veil...  his opinion is similar to ours.  To be 
kind, most of GDW's Rebellion-era material is not the highest quality 
they've ever produced.  Also, don't 5FW counters (including the SDBs) 
represent Squadrons and Fleets, rather than individual ships?

>    Finally, I've got a question for all you *TCS* cult members.  Is
>there any clear way to identify ship types or classes based upon
>tonnages?  In other words, is there some breakdown like:

>Battles          100,000+
>Cruisers         40,000 - 100,000
>Destroyers       5000 - 40,000
>Etc.?
>    What about types/classes themselves?  Is there some finer
>breakdown than battles, cruisers, carriers, escorts, etc.?

    Yes. Tonnages are approximate, based on classes from Supplement 9,
and from memory.  Classes are usually based on size and intended use.

Primary function: slug it out with other large ships; has
spinal mount; jump capable; aka "Capital ships".

100,000+ tons           - Battleship
70,000 - 100,000t       - Heavy Cruiser, Battlecruiser
40,000 - 60,000t        - Cruiser
20,000 - 40,000t        - Light Cruiser, Cruiser

Primary function: as above, not jump capable.

over 5,000t             - Rider, BattleRider

Primary function: carry small combatants (fighters, SDBs)

any size            - Carrier
add armor           - Armored Carrier
add spinal mount    - Strike Carrier

Primary function: carry large combatants (Riders)

any size            - Tender
add armor, weapons  - Battletender (?)

Primary function: escort capital ships and carriers, engage SDBs, 
light riders, badly-designed fighters and mop up damaged capital 
ships.

1000-3000 tons      - Escort, Light Escort
3000-10,000 tons    - Destroyer, Destroyer Escorts
10,000-20,000 tons  - rarely seen for some reason. (Frigate ?)


Primary function: commerce raiding, anti-piracy patrols, customs 
cutters.

300-1000 tons       - Close Escort, Patrol Escort("Patrol Cruiser")
1000-3000 tons      - Escorts as above, on independent or convoy duty.


Primary function: engage similar combatants or cruisers, travel in 
large battle groups of same type. (My own designation, based on an 
extra-Imperial nation with non-standard doctrine).

3000-20,000 tons    - Corvette or Frigate

Primary function: small non-jump combatants, delivered in swarms to 
battlezone, or used for commerce raiding.

50-200 tons         - heavy fighter, small SDB. If well-designed, can
                    disable capital ships if in large numbers.
20-50 tons          - fighter.  Commerce raider.  Cannon fodder.
6-20 tons           - light fighter, interface fighter. Cannon fodder.

>    Is there a way to tell a frigate from a destroyer, etc. 
>(besides what the designer choose to call it)?

    Beats the hell out of me.  Depends if you are using classic 
European usage or modern American usage for the term "frigate".  The 
former means a large ship, not quite as big as a "ship of the line".  
(the USS Constitution was a frigate) Modern equivalent would be heavy 
cruiser or cruiser.  The latter usage means a small escort, smaller 
than a destroyer with slightly different duties.  
    American frigates were formerly called "Destroyer Escorts".  The 
purpose of the Destroyer is clearer if you remember that the name is 
short for "Submarine Destroyer".  As a carrier group or battlegroup 
escort, the destroyer's job is anti-submarine warfare; the frigate's 
job is manning the radar pickets (listening for enemy aircraft, ships 
or missiles in coming) out there at the edges of the fleet.  Ideally, 
the frigate is between the Carrier (or Battleship) and its 
accompanying cruisers and the enemy, and will "see" (and handle 
fire-control against) the enemy before the enemy can "see" the core of 
the Carrier Group.  Or something like that.  
    And I have no idea what a Traveller Frigate would be good for 
(spatial equivalent?)  In any case, the type names are chosen by the 
military based on intended use, not by the designer.  The U.S. Navy 
has changed the type names of several ships during their lifespans, as
they were refitted and given different duties.

                            -- Cynthia






------------------------------

Bundle: 620
Archive-Message-Number: 7787
Subject: 74:20/7740 RICE Paper dis
From: nntp!execnet.com!jeff.zeitlin@uu5.psi.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Date: Tue, 24 May 94 19:02:00 -0500

Subject: 74:20/7740 RICE Paper discussions

 ::>a little too tongue-in-cheek? :-)  Can anyone post a RICE paper?

 Sure.  I was thinking that consistency of textual material would 
 be a Good Thing, but since these things _are_ done by different 
 field reporters, they would actually reflect the different styles.  
 The only thing that I would suggest is that the XUWP be kept in 
 the standard format as presented in RICE Paper #0000, modified as 
 discussed below, and that no lettered RICE Paper be published 
 until the numbered RICE Paper that it is associated with has been 
 published.  Also, since under this scheme there is a possibility 
 that multiple RICE Papers may get published simultaneously, I 
 would recommend NOT assigning a number, but instead using the TML 
 number of the message that contains the RICE Paper.  Of course, if 
 a lettered Paper is being published, _that_ one gets an assigned 
 number based on the appropriate numbered Paper.

 Also, RICE was just a fortuitous acronym.  I almost changed it 
 when I saw what it led to, but decided that I liked it...  The DCE 
 and DTE were deliberate, though... I wonder how many people caught 
 the pun...

T::>> Appendix A:  The Extended UWP
 ::>>
 ::>> The extended UWP appears as follows:
 ::>>
 ::>> Line 1:  Name of planet, followed by subsector name, sector name,
 ::>>          and sector coordinates, in parentheses

T::>What with the uncertain timelines and all maybe it would be a good idea
 ::>to include a `date' for when the RICE paper was written that ties it to
 ::>the source for the basic UWP data?

 Absolutely, good thought.  I'll add that in RICE Paper #0001 (or 
 whatever number it turns out to be, per the revised method of 
 numbering ).  As it stands, Spinward Marches except Regina 
 Subsector is per Imperial Chamber of Commerce issues as of 1116 or 
 thereabouts (Megatraveller Imperial Encyclopedia); Regina 
 Subsector is per Regency Board of Economic Development issues as 
 of about 1200 (Traveller: The New Era).  I know I have Deneb 
 Sector somewhere, and I think it's of the 1116 issue, but I'm not 
 sure.  If someone has "accurate" info, contact me off the list so 
 that we can arrange appropriate information transfer...
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 ~ QMPro 1.52 ~ Racism hurts everyone.

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
******************
