Subj: Traveller-digest V1999 #1417
Date: 11/30/99 8:20:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)
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Traveller-digest Tuesday, November 30 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 1417
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: early christian writings and roman rumors
Re: LEO's
Re: Police ranks
Re: Police ranks
Re: Police ranks
Re: Police ranks
Re: Low TL Medicines (was: Re: Rule of man coin)
Re: Police Ranks
Re: Police Career
Re Lounge Ship Enterprise
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED OT Oh bold Leonard (was Re: Sci fi films)
Re: Contacting Roger Sanger
Re: Low TL Medicines...
Sheriff/Law Officers
Re: Iridium-class Solar Yacht (GTL12)
Re: early christian writings and roman rumors
Re: Bifrost-class Solar Shuttle (GTL9)
Bifrost-class Solar Shuttle (GTL9) - corrected
Goryo-class Medium Fighter (GTL9) - corrected
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 11:59:54 +1100
From: David Healey
Subject: Re: early christian writings and roman rumors
On 29/11/99, Colin Michael wrote:
>From: Robert Prior
>> May I recommend "The Unauthorized Version" by Robin Lane Fox? A look at
>> the bible as history, by a good historian.
>
>Or "Surspised By Joy", by C.S. Lewis, a Sci-Fi writer and infamous atheist.
>
>- -Crusty
One assumes you mean Wyndham Lewis, rather than the infamous Christian C.S.
Lewis ? The series of "The Lion, et al", is considered by some to be an
easy-read Bible.
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 12:01:05 +1100
From: David Healey
Subject: Re: LEO's
On 29/11/99, William Hostman said :
>Let us look at a typical american "big city", Detroit, Michigan. Detroit
>really is a collage of small cities (typically under 64mi^2). The detroit
>metorplex straddles 3 counties (Wayne, Macomb, and Oakland), with the City
>of Detroit (proper) being in Wayne County. You have the Detroit Metro PD,
>the Wayne County Sherrif's Department, the Macomb County Sheriff's
>Department, and the Oakland County Sheriff's Department. In wayne county
>alone, you also have the following other police departments: Trenton PD,
>Wyandotte PD, Allen Park PD, Licoln Park PD, Taylor PD, Garden City PD,
>Dearborne PD, and Livonia PD (I've seen cars from these in wyandotte; there
>was a Police Officer's funeral a day after my grandfather's funeral), plus
>possibly 5 more PD's. Each county has a number of townships and
>incorporated cities in it, and all of them fall under the Metro PD's
>jurisdiction, as well. The sheriff's are elected by their county, the Metro
>PD Chief is appointed, but I don't know how. I do know the city manager of
>Wyandotte appoints the Wyandotte PD's chief. I also know that on a robbery
>call, DMPD, WPD, and the WCSD all responded, as did a Trenton PD officer
>(The named suspect was from trenton, which was 2 miles down the road.)
>
>In almost all cases, for state crimes, the State Police or State Troopers
>can get involved. Also, most state trooper agencies are specifically
>charged with highway patrol duties. (California also has a separate highway
>patrol, if I understand california correctly).
Strewth ! Does this lead to the odd discussion over jurisdiction ? If you
include only "traditional" Police Agencies here, we have one per State and
the Federal Police, plus a few other agencies who don't have "Powers
Constable". Nice 'n simple.
Is it possible for list-members from other countries to give a basic run
down of their police agencies for people to use in their TU's ?
And before any other Australian pipes up, yes I know there're other
agencies out there. They don't, however, carry firearms, nor do they have
the arrest powers the traditional police forces have.
Dave
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:13:56 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin
Subject: Re: Police ranks
On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:29:08 -0500 (EST),
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
>For a different take on the Police, see my version of Police for MegaTraveller.
>Go to my website, then ==> Tavonni Repair Bays ==> Police Characters for
>MegaTraveller.
>This is actually based on the UK model portrayed in "The Bill". For those who
>want a US-based version, use Jeff's ranks. For example, there is no "Lieutenant"
>or "Captain" in the UK system, and the US uses "Chief of Police" rather than
>"Commissioner of Police", since there is no monarch to receive a commission
>from.
Actually, some US jurisdictions use Commissioner _also_, as a
_civilian_ political appointee who sets overall policy for the
department. The Chief of Department is in _operational_ control
of implementation. NYC is one such; all appointments to rank
above Captain are made by the Commissioner.
Just out of curiosity, what _are_ the titles in the British
system?
>Naturally, since local law enforcement _by definition_ is local, there is no
>problem for one world using the US notation, another using the UK notation,
>another using something completely different (eg. "commisars" or whatever). You
>can even split the ranks more, and have a "Customs Branch" ranking system with
>various "Customs Officers", or a "Riot Brigade" that uses a more military
>ranking system (good ideas for a big force on a Hi Pop Hi Law world). Jeff's
>original article in 1995 even skipped ranks if the force was small.
Cheez, is that moldy old thing still around? If you can lay
hands on it, do me a favor and forward me a copy - I want to see
how far off my perceptions were; that was fairly early in my
career as a civilian computer geek with the NYPD...
>The point about planetary police is that they ARE different. With subsector
>police, I cheated a little to reduce the number of ranks. You can expand them
>again to allow detectives at the subsector level, if you want. After all, It's
>Your Traveller Universe.
Oh, definitely; I sort of assumed this. Necessarily, though, I
was writing from personal experience.
>Oh, and the query about "officer" and "enlisted" is a hard one. After all, every
>policeman is a "police officer". Therefore, I use the terms "officer" and
>"commissioned officer", which at first glance seems a tautology, but remember
>that the military has "non-commissioned officers" as well.
>Planetary Police Subsector Police
>Rank Officer Rank Officer
>E1 Probationer E1 Trainee
>E2 Constable/Detective Constable E2 Constable
>E3 Senior Constable/Snr Det Constable E3 Senior Constable
>E4 Sergeant/Detective Sergeant E4 Sergeant
>E5 Senior Sergeant/Snr Det Sergeant E5 Senior Sergeant
>E6 Station Sergeant/Station Det Sergeant E6 Station Sergeant
>E7 Area Sergeant/Area Det Sergeant E7 Area Sergeant
>
>Rank Commissioned Officer Rank Commissioned Officer
>O1 Deputy Inspector/Deputy Det Inspector O1 Deputy Inspector
>O2 Inspector/Detective Inspector O2 Inspector
>O3 Chief Inspector/Chief Det Inspector O3 Chief Inspector
>O4 Superintendent O4 Station Chief
>O5 Chief Superintendent O5 Area Chief
>O6 Deputy Commissioner O6 Bureau Chief
>O7 Commissioner of Police O7 Subsector Chief
Does this represent the British system, or is it a modification
thereof similar to mine of the US system for the purpose of the
Article That Started This Thread?
>BTW, one of my sources was "Law Enforcer Characters", a TML article by none
>other than Jeff Zeitlin back in 1995. To be fair, I used it as a reality check
>on the skills I was giving out, rather than for the ranks. Also, I don't really
>know if the UK has a "Station Sergeant" and "Area Sergeant" or whether some
>sergeants are just more senior than others (eg. Bob from "The Bill"). However,
>they seemed convenient titles to allow me to create the E6 and E7 ranks.
Like I said, "Cheez, is that moldy old thing still around? If
you can lay hands on it, do me a favor and forward me a copy - I
want to see how far off my perceptions were; that was fairly
early in my career as a civilian computer geek with the NYPD..."
IIRC, that was also a TNE-centric article, no?
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:13:53 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin
Subject: Re: Police ranks
On Mon, 29 Nov 1999 21:29:08 -0500 (EST), "Thomas Vickers"
wrote:
>>OTOH, Los Angeles County has a very large Sheriffs department, which
>>handles the entire range of police duties, from parking violations to
>>homicide investigations. They cover the vast areas of the Los Angeles
>>Metro area that isn't _in_ Los Angeles proper, though you couldn't
>>easily tell it on the ground.
>Same here in Texas. The City PD is responsible for about 40 K folks, while
>the Sheriff has to cover the entire county and the other 300K folks.
>The Constables tend to handle a lot of the civil stuff you mentioned. I
>think each county has several constable districts and they even get neato
>cars too :)
Point taken, from both of you. In that case, it's pretty clear
that the "Sheriff's Department" is really the Police Department
with a "funny" name and rank titles. There will, logically, be a
one-to-one mapping in there somewhere, and I would expect a "real
cop" (i.e., one from a PD that calls itself "Police") to feel
right at home, no real difference. Note that what I described is
not just NYC and Metro; it's statewide, as we have a New York
State Police Department that handles law enforcement
responsibilities for municipalities that do not have their own
department. In the past two years, the Town of Putnam Valley and
the Town of Cortlandt Manor have abolished their police
departments as more of a financial drain than a help; police
services are now provided by the NYSPD. But the Sheriffs for
Putnam County and Westchester County, respectively, handle the
kinds of civil enforcement I've described. True, both are
technically in NYC Metro, but I know some folks in the Finger
Lakes region that say it's the same way up there.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:13:59 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin
Subject: Re: Police ranks
On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:42:41 -0500 (EST), "Chris Seamans"
wrote:
>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
>>or "Captain" in the UK system, and the US uses "Chief of Police" rather than
>>"Commissioner of Police", since there is no monarch to receive a commission
>>from.
>Ah, so that's where it comes from!
>Anyhow, we *do* have Commissioners here in America. In Gotham City there's
>Commissioner Gordon (he should be hitting retirement any day now). There was
>also a short-lived TV series on one of the major networks called "The
>Commish", which concerned itself with the exploits of a pleasant, lovable
>and awfully *round* Police Commissioner. I think that Philadelphia has a
>Commissioner, but now that I think of it, I'm not all that sure.
FWIW, "Gotham" was a fictionalized NYC, which does indeed have a
Commissioner - Currently, one Howard Safir; previously, William
J. Bratton (yes, the one that made the news).
In addition to NYC, Boston is known to have a Commissioner;
Bratton was Commish there before coming (back) to NYC to take it
here; and Philadephia does indeed have a Commissioner as well,
currently one John Timoney, former Chief of Department, NYPD. I
believe Chicago does, as well.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:14:03 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin
Subject: Re: Police ranks
On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:42:41 -0500 (EST), Glenn Goffin
wrote:
>Before we get too far into Yanks-and-Brits in Space,
>let's remember that law enforcement can occur under a
>large variety of paradigms. In rural areas today, for
>example, law enforcement may be in the hands of a
>locally-based person or organization (sheriff,
>headman, constable), or of a representative of the
>central government (like a U.S. Marshall), or of the
>military, or of paramilitary organizations (and not
>just death squads). To what extent can character
>generation give different flavors to these
>experiences?
Good point. There's also the police force of a functional
anarchy: The Free People's Vigilance Committee of East Backwash.
One can definitely have fun with different models of law
enforcement; the question to ask is "what's going to best further
the adventure?". :)
I'd suggest that proper tuning of the skills available and the
likelihood of getting them, plus the types and descriptions of
the assignments, can flavor the chargen for any particular need.
Remember, for example, that LBB Book 4 handled both Army and
Marines, and even though there was a lot of overlap (hence
handling them in a single book), they had distinct flavors.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:14:09 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin
Subject: Re: Low TL Medicines (was: Re: Rule of man coin)
On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 09:48:31 -0500 (EST), "Chris Seamans"
wrote:
>From: Black ICE
>>The question then become:
>>To what extent (if any) does the Imperium regulate the interstellar
>>transport of medicinal compounds between worlds, if said compounds are
>>legal on the world of origin? If there is no formal Imperial regulation
>>of such compounds, does the Imperium at least attempt to help worlds
>>maintain their own regulations on importation of medicinal compounds?
>I would suspect that the Imperium might have to involve itself in this sort
>of scenario. Introduction of addictive drugs into a society can have grave
>economic consequences. Even the distant Imperium doesn't want an industrial
>world to be turned into a crack den. Historically, this tactic was used
>deliberately by the British during the Opium Wars. On a smaller scale, the
>introduction of alcohol to the American Indians was devastating.
I'd tend to play it in the other direction - the Imperium will
not get involved in what is clearly a matter of local law
enforcement, unless they are specifically asked to be involved,
and even then, there will be limits to the assistance they will
provide, and often a cost to the requesting world.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:14:07 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin
Subject: Re: Police Ranks
On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 00:42:41 -0500 (EST), Russell Bornschlegel
wrote:
>david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
>> For a different take on the Police, see my version of Police for MegaTraveller.
>> Go to my website, then ==> Tavonni Repair Bays ==> Police Characters for
>> MegaTraveller.
>Oh, damn it all. I'm trying to get my article locked down so Jeff
>can put it on Freelance Traveller, and here you go stirring up
>my brain. Thanks. :)
>> BTW, one of my sources was "Law Enforcer Characters", a TML article by none
>> other than Jeff Zeitlin back in 1995.
>Jeff, you've been holding out on me. Is this available online?
Like I said, "Cheez, is that moldy old thing still around?
If you can lay hands on it, do me a favor and forward me a copy -
I want to see how far off my perceptions were; that was fairly
early in my career as a civilian computer geek with the NYPD..."
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 20:14:11 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin
Subject: Re: Police Career
On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 15:12:21 -0500 (EST), Alex Ingram
wrote:
>I really liked what you have proposed and find several new ideals which I
>may integrate into MTU. I've also been working on a Police career system
>for several years.
>Here are some of my ideals:
>There are local (planetary) and Imperial police within my game. I am
>dealing here with the Imperial Police Force (IMPOL). It is a comprehensive
>organization with many responsibilities.
>I see the Imperial Police operating only on Imperial worlds and starports
>and not just any planet. IMPOL functions like a national police force. I have
>studied many different law enforcement organizations: the FBI, Interpol,
>ATF, DEA, Secret Service, Bureau of Prisons, NYPD, LAPD and Scotland Yards
>and have added many of their duties and roles to my system:
>Imperial Police Force
>Enforcement Branch - Uniformed patrol officers
>
> Enforcement (Traffic and Foot Patrol / Police Storefront Operations)
> Bomb Squad (Bomb & Explosive Ordnance Disposal)
Munitions and Special Package Division. Also responsible for
non-explosive devices of mass effect (e.g., poison gas emitters).
> Hostage Rescue & Negotiation (Special Weapons & Tactics Teams / Hostage Negotiators)
> Animal Teams (Formerly K-9) (there may be other types of animals used in police work)
I'd probably make this one 'Non-sentient Assistance Division';
that would also cover robot handlers and motile vegetation that
perhaps can be found. In many Terran-based traditions, this will
probably still be called 'K-9'.
> Air Patrol (may include a Parachute Wilderness Rescue & Recovery Team)
> Harbor Patrol (may include a Water Rescue & Recovery Team / Scuba Team)
NYC combines these into "Harbor and Aviation"; you might want to
consider "Special Environment Division", dealing with
environments not 'standard' for a society - for example, a belt
society might need a 'Space' or 'Zero-Gee' R&R unit, but won't
need a 'Harbor' unit.
I think you should expand on this, into another article like
what's asserted to be mine from '95, or The Article That Started
This Thread. Enough different takes on this one concept, and we
may be able to do 'Classic Traveller Book 9 - Police'.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 17:37:41 -0900
From: "William F. Hostman"
Subject: Re Lounge Ship Enterprise
>ObTrav: The Scout Service functions via peer review, and it (like all
>systems) has a potential for abuse. How many Scout ships/teams are turning
>a blind eye to the abuses of their fellow Scouts so that those others will
>turn a blind eye to their own abuses? Beyond the ISS Lounge Ship
>Enterprise, what about more serious violations? What if other scouts (the
>PCs) stumble on a group that is involved in grey market smuggling and
>discover that they can profit if they don't report them to their
>superiors? What if they discover that those superiors are the ones
>organizing the smuggling ring?
IMTU, the scout service itself turns an institutional blind eye towards
small scale trafficing in recreational materials, provided the work gets
done, done right, done on time and no-one gets caught or complains.
Then again, IMTU, scout brew also requires certain chemicals barred by the
psionic suppressions....
William F. Hostman | "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click
interface!"
Aramis 0602 C55A364-C S kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge-
533
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis mailto:wilh@alaska.com
ICQ:14640742 AIM:AKAramis ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn- t4-- tt+ to- tg-- ru+ ge 3i+ c+ jt-() au+ st- ls
pi+() ta+ he+(-) kk+ as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:20:34 +1100
From: "Hughes, Michael"
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED OT Oh bold Leonard (was Re: Sci fi films)
I'm always interested what words will get emphasized in TML posts,
especially those from those that love to bold.
Taking a recent post regarding Sci Fi films and their hygiene content, I
believe that upon condensing the bold words in the post, Leonard (a most
frequent bolder :-)) is trying to tell us something via employing a bit of
'Yoda patois' action.
*locally* *and* *grunge* *want* *neat* *kill* *they* *Any* *need* *long*
*can't* *enforced* *other* *really* *important* *required* *anything*
*very* *careful* *themselves* *most* *don't* *any* *real* *real* *really*
*need* *is* *do*.
Red *Bomb* Rum! *Pearl* Red *Harbour* Rum!
Ob Traveller; Nah, can't think of one.
PS Said post was very informative and has joined my fine collection of RL Vs
Sci-fi File.
PPS No flames please, I'm British
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 19:07:25 -0800
From: Edward Swatschek
Subject: Re: Contacting Roger Sanger
On Sat, 27 Nov 1999, Josh W. Spencer wrote:
> OK, I'm not trying to open up a can of worms, but nevertheless, I'd like
> to contact this person and hear it from the horse's own mouth about the
> dispute between Marc Miller and the current owner of the DGP properties.
>
> Does anyone on the TML know how I can contact him?
From the whois database entry for digestgroup.com:
Digest Group Publications
P.O. Box 75472
Seattle, WA 98125
Roger Sanger, 206-363-1094, rodge@halcyon.com
- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@bitslayer.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1999 13:44:48 +1000
From: "The Roc"
Subject: Re: Low TL Medicines...
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Ferguson
To:
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 1999 4:52 AM
Subject: RE: Low TL Medicines
>
> Your reasoning works for explaining why some drugs may be
> illegal on some worlds and not others, but I can't see the
> Imperium being interested. IMTU, even Psi drugs are not
> explicitly banned by the Imperium, though any significant
> trade in these drugs is likely to attract attention.
>
I understand what you mean, and I was generalising, reading the question on
a more "world specific" Imperium, not as the Imperium per se. My ideas go
from system to system, even from specific worlds to specific worlds.
However, using the Psi example, I figure that if psionics is illegal
Imperium-wide, and Psi-drugs are illegal within the Imperium, then the mere
possession of said illegal drugs is an offence and punishable if caught...
but that is just "my" take on it and everyone else is free to think
otherwise. I can't see any kind of "positive" control of psionics if you
can possess the drugs anywhere other than on actual worlds unless psionics
do not exist in space travel where the drugs would then be useless?
- -- The Roc
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:04:10 -0500
From: "Lyle Youngblood"
Subject: Sheriff/Law Officers
>The sheriff is an elected position, typically the highest in a county (or
>parish). Small sheriff departments have several deputies who may or may not
>be civil servants. Large sheriff departments, (in Chicago, for example)
>provide court bailiffs, serve court papers, and staff jails. Large
>departments have deputy ranks like chief deputy, lieutenant deputy,
>sergeant deputy, etc., sometimes including investigators.
The organization of the sheriff's department is almost always a choice
made by the elected sheriff and the local county commisioners. In areas
such as New York, Chicago, and L.A., they tend to be police support
organizations as mentioned elsewhere in this thread. In largely rural
areas, the sheriff's department will be the main police force in the
county and the constables, marshalls, and police of the towns will
usually defer to them. It's still not an uncommon practice for a sheriff to
deputize a town marshall or constable or for a small community to
ask the county sheriff to station a deputy semi-permanently in the
town, thereby directly and formally subordinating local law enforcement
to the county. Many large countys with full civil service-style sheriff's
departments will also include detectives, investigators, and specialist
forensic experts who are not in any way considered deputies, although
they are subordinate to the elected sheriff (or sometimes the county
coroner).
>From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
>This is actually based on the UK model portrayed in "The Bill". For those
who
>want a US-based version, use Jeff's ranks. For example, there is no
"Lieutenant"
>or "Captain" in the UK system, and the US uses "Chief of Police" rather
than
>"Commissioner of Police", since there is no monarch to receive a commission
>from.
Actually, U.S. citys sometimes have a Police Comissioner as well,
although
it is a completely different concept from the Police Chief. A Chief is
usually
a political appointment (although, rarely, it may be a civil service
position)
but is usually, if not almost always, a career police officer who has worked
his way up the system to Captain's rank or above. He handles implementation
of policy and standards and is analagous to a U.S. military Chief of Staff.
A Commissioner, either individually or as a member of a Police
Commission, is always a political appointment and almost never from
within the department. Instead he is a "civilian" charged with either
making
policy decisions or conducting "outside" investigations of the police
department. He is more analagous to the U.S. Secretary of Defence, the
"civilian" boss of a para-military organization. Commisioners will usually
only be found in the largest of cities, however.
Lyle
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:03:27 -0500
From: Robert Prior
Subject: Re: Iridium-class Solar Yacht (GTL12)
>> With all the talk about solar racing a while back, I decided to build solar
>> sails into the next version of GT: Shipyard. Here is the fastest ship I
>> could design, just the bridge/systems module and a light sail, held
>> together by a super-light hull.
>
>What a really cool ship!
>
>I really just wanted to test my new linux machine, but I thought I would pass
>out some praise while I was at it :)
>
>I really do like it, though (the ship ... not the machine).
Praise from a gearhead such as yourself is praise indeed. Thank you, sir.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:05:29 -0500
From: Robert Prior
Subject: Re: early christian writings and roman rumors
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Robert Prior
>> May I recommend "The Unauthorized Version" by Robin Lane Fox? A look at
>> the bible as history, by a good historian.
>
>Or "Surspised By Joy", by C.S. Lewis, a Sci-Fi writer and infamous atheist.
Atheist? C.S.Lewis, the man who wrote "The Screwtape Letters"?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:27:15 -0500
From: Robert Prior
Subject: Re: Bifrost-class Solar Shuttle (GTL9)
>In mail you write:
>
>> I was fiddling around, trying to get decent acceleration for a GTL9 ship,
>> whne I realized that the GURPS Space light sails might work. Plugging the
>> numbers in (and assuming no silly mistakes on my part), I came up with a
>> relatively fast shuttle for short-haul trips.
>
>> Bifrost-class Solar Shuttle (GTL9)
>
>
>
>> 10 USL, DR 100, Cockpit, 1 Light Sail, 4 Passenger Couches, 4.5 Cargo
>>
>> Statistics: EMass 43.4 tonnes, LMass 63.8 tonnes, Cost: 28.5 MCr, HP:
>> 2,631, Size Mod: +6
>>
>> Performance: Accel: 2.3 G (3.3 G empty, 1.0 G overloaded)
>
>There's something *seriously* wrong here. Light sails, without laser
>boosts or the like *can't* do even *1* g. 1/10th or even 1/100th g is
>more like light sail performance. They are *not* high accel!
>> 1 light sail (145.1 tonnes thrust) 0.5 22.7 25.0 - -
>
>And just how *big* is this sail? And what does *it* mass? I bet you
>forgot to add the mass of the sail to the mass of the ship before
>calculating acceleration.
Then fire off a letter to SJG and get GURPS space errataed, because that's
where I pulled the numbers from. Just a simple thrust/mass=acceleration
calculation.
I can see no reason why a light sail couldn't be a high-acceleration
vessel, assuming that the sail was big enough. GS/3 doesn't give sizes, but
I suppose you could do a backwards calculation from the thrust and average
solar energy in earth orbit.
Looking at page 21 of "Starsailing" (by Freidman), I see that F=2P/c
(force, power, speed of light). Given that F=ma, then we can derive a=2P/mc
(acceleration, power, mass, speed of light)
The mass of the yacht includes the mass of the sail (check the numbers).
Dividing tons thrust by tons mass should give me the acceleration in
gravities, right? (I usually work in Newtons and kilograms, not American
units, so may well have made a mistake here.)
In any case, we can calculate teh area of the sail because we know the
force. 145.1 tonnes thrust is 145100 kg times 10 m/s/s (approx), thus
1451000 N. Rearranging the first equation about to get P = Fc/2, I get P =
1,451,000 x 300,000,000 / 2 = 2.2 x 10e14. The Square root of that is about
10e7, so the sail is a square 10000km along a side.
According to GS/3, the sail is 240 square miles per space. I see that I
forgot to multiply the thrust by 0.5 (for the half space) but GS/3 lists
the thrust as 160 tons/space.
I think we've found an errata in GS/3.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:08:04 -0500
From: Robert Prior
Subject: Bifrost-class Solar Shuttle (GTL9) - corrected
Here is the 'corrected' version of the Bifrost. I had the wrong thrust
before. Whether this thrust is possible using the GURPS size of sail is
another matter entirely...
Bifrost-class Solar Shuttle (GTL9)
Crew: 1 bridge crew, 1 steward
Passengers: 48 high passengers
10 OF, DR 100, Cockpit, 1 Light Sail, 4 Passenger Couches, 4.5 Cargo
Statistics: EMass 43.4 tonnes, LMass 63.8 tonnes, Cost: 28.5 MCr, HP:
2,631, Size Mod: +6
Performance: Accel: 1.1 G (1.7 G empty, 0.5 G overloaded)
Structure Spaces Mass Cost Area Crew
10-dton medium hull, standard materials (10.0) 2.4 0.1 1,754 -
DR 100 durasteel armour - 11.9 0.2 - -
CCCI Spaces Mass Cost Area Crew
Cockpit 1.0 4.4 2.5 - 1-2
Engineering Spaces Mass Cost Area Crew
1 light sail (72.6 tonnes thrust) 0.5 22.7 25.0 - -
Other Modules Spaces Mass Cost Area Crew
4 passenger couches 4.0 2.0 0.3 - 1
4.5-dton cargo hold 4.5 - - - -
Cargo (4.5) 20.4 - - -
Totals Spaces Mass Cost Area Crew
Empty 10.0 43.4 28.0 1,754 0
Fitted out 10.0 63.8 28.0 1,754 0
©Robert Prior, 1999. (Designed with GT Shipyard. © Robert Prior, 1999.)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 23:09:41 -0500
From: Robert Prior
Subject: Goryo-class Medium Fighter (GTL9) - corrected
Here is a 'corrected' version of the Goryo. Whether this is possible
without a larger sail than specified in GS/3 is debatable. This fits the
rules, but whether the rules fit reality...
Goryo-class Medium Fighter (GTL9)
Crew: 1 bridge crew, 1 gunner
4 OF, DR 2000, 1 Single 303 MJ Laser Turret, Basic Stealth, Basic Emission
Cloaking, Hardened Cockpit, 3 Light Sails
Weapon Type Acc Damage 1/2D Rng Max Rng RoF
303 MJ Rainbow Laser Imp 33 5d x 55 12,800 km 24,000 km
1/60
Statistics: EMass 221.8 tonnes, LMass 221.8 tonnes, Cost: 87.66 MCr, HP:
1,428, Size Mod: +5
Performance: Accel: 1.0 G
Structure Spaces Mass Cost Area Crew
4-dton medium hull, standard materials (4.0) 1.3 0.0 952 -
1 turret (DR 1000) 1.0 37.4 1.6 800 -
DR 2000 crystaliron armour - 86.4 3.8 - -
Basic stealth - 0.4 0.1 - -
Basic emission cloaking - 0.4 0.1 - -
CCCI Spaces Mass Cost Area Crew
Cockpit with hardened controls 1.0 4.6 2.7 - 1-2
Engineering Spaces Mass Cost Area Crew
3 light sails (217.7 tonnes thrust) 1.5 68.0 75.0 - -
Weaponry Spaces Mass Cost Area Crew
1 single 303 MJ heavy laser turret (3.0) 23.3 4.3 - 1-1
Other Modules Spaces Mass Cost Area Crew
Empty space 0.5 - - - -
Totals Spaces Mass Cost Area Crew
Empty 4.0 221.8 87.7 1,752 0
Fitted out 4.0 221.8 87.7 1,752 0
©Robert Prior, 1999. (Designed with GT Shipyard. © Robert Prior, 1999.)
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1417
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