TRAVELLER Digest 548

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Traveller by FarFuture@aol.com
  2) Orrimot Class Owners by "Bruce Johnson" <JOHNSON@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
  3) Re: Yars by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@csn.net>
  4) DGP & TRAVELLER!!! by dgpinfo@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger)
  5) Re: Traveller is Dead.  Long Live Traveller! by PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
  6) Re: Home again by jeff_michelle nort <103010.212@compuserve.com>
  7) What's Wrong With Traveller by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
  8) Re: TRAVELLER digest 547 by "V.A.G." <GREI5001@pcmail.uni-trier.de>
  9) Sorry, another mistake by "V.A.G." <GREI5001@pcmail.uni-trier.de>
 10) Early TL comments by mitch@intersys.com (Mitch Schwartz)
 11) Re:  YARS by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
 12) reply by Simon.Harding@vuw.ac.nz
 13) Re: What's Wrong With Traveller by "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 17:02:04 -0500
From: FarFuture@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller
Message-ID: <960112170203_39820759@mail04.mail.aol.com>

Use of the Traveller House Rules within Traveller is included in the rights
which have reverted to Marc Miller. He has the right to change and adapt
them; he doesn't *have* to use them.

I think it is important to remember that the Reversion of Traveller to Marc
Miller is not a situation governed by animosity or recrimination. With the
demise of GDW, the company has determined that the best placement of the
Traveller Game System is with Marc Miller and GDW is doing everything it can
to help.




------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 14:59:02 MST7
From: "Bruce Johnson" <JOHNSON@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Orrimot Class Owners
Message-ID: <94B1AD61E0@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>

Had to get this out before Alvin goes 'poof' again, so he could see
it.

THESE are the kind of people who pick up those old surplus Orrimot
class fleet tenders.  Obviously, stuff like this has to take place in
the Regency, or some other stable, wealthy area...I suspect that starship
collectors don't exist elsewhere ( "you see, in the RC we call 'em
Pie-rates, boy!")

Bruce Johnson

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Contents from "The Tender", a quarterly magazine for Antique
Starship Enthusiasts, Vol 258, No. 3, Pub. 1204/01/12, Glisten,
Spinward Marches.

Editorial:
3'Old friends revisited...The Orrimot special issue'

Tech:
22'Main Hub Bearing Rebuilds Done Right'

Smokey takes you step by step through this important part of any
Orrie rebuild or maintenence. Blueprints are included to machine the
hard-to-find outer rim seal sets, and to modify Ensign Industries
turret bearings for those of you who can't find original parts.

45'Never Buy Jump Tapes Again'

We install the Strange Trip Industries workstation interface.  Can a
dropout computer genius really run a starship off a desktop? They
call it a kit, but we find that lots of homebrewing is
necessary...this ain't a weekend project, folks.

62'Why Spin?'

Lots of people consider it heresy, but face it...CG is a lot more
convenient sometimes. We evaluate the 'New Grav' CG adapter system
for use on that custom 'mot you have in your stable.

Features:

69Interview/Ship Profile. 'Furthur'

TT talks, in depth, to Dunstan Englebart, architect of the STI
workstation interface.  How a renowned programmer/engineer dropped
out of a high profile career with Starpoint Systems, found peace and
happiness in a starfaring commune, and happened to free antique
shipowners from the jump tapes forever.

The 'Furthr' is more than the wildly painted home of a odd bunch of
interstellar vagabonds...from the city bus sign riveted to it's
nose, to the garden taking up the starboard hamster cage, to the
sound system running throughout the ship, to the extended airfoils
on the tail, the 'Furthr' is a monument to the flexibility and
modifiability of the basic Orrie design. We talk to Angus McCorran,
Dunstan Englebart and Viroshuggzh Agrizzh, the ship's master,
syestem's engineer, and chief engineer, respectively about life on
the 'Furthr', and homebuilding starcraft.

83Interview/Ship Profile

Ramshalassan Vulkuri has won numerous concours d'exellance awards
with his meticulously restored 'Salmoras'. Here he tells TT of his
long infatuation with Vilani-designed ships, a brief tour of his
collection, and details of his restoration of the 'Salmoras'.

Gleaming like the day she was launched, the 'Salmoras' stands as an
outstanding example of the restorer's craft. First launched in the
very earliest days of the Imperium, in 238, she served the fledgling
Imperial fleet for 70 years.   Ramshalassan Vulkuri found her
languishing in a Spinward Marches junkyard, and bought her for next
to nothing. That began a 15 year odyssey to find, rebuild or
recreate the parts necessary to bring it back to the pristine
condition it is in today. Ramshalassan roamed throughout the
subsector poking around in junkyards, antique shops and surplus
depots in that time. The original Vland to Ershur jump tape set, he
says, was his greatest find.  It was in a dingy old thrift shop on
Gram...

Regular Features:

5Mail to the editors: Readers sound off on early Scout/Courier
history, the Type Y debate...single class or artificial
distinction?, Early Tukera insignia.

8Ask Smokey:  Smokey answers your tough tech questions.

17Brill's Rambles: Brill covers a tough subject...finding the ROOM
for those things in your yard.

91Bit's 'n Pieces: New stuff for the Starship enthusiast

98Market place: Buy sell, or just horsetrade.

107End Page: Sir Movrol N'garsett on the new Regency Salvage Code





------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 17:32:50 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@csn.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Yars
Message-ID: <199601130032.AA22194@ns-1.csn.net>

At 08:47 am 1/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>->  To all who would say this, I just have one thing to point out.
>-> In the time that it would create to make another rules set as
>-> comprehensive as FF&S and T:NE, you could create _ALOT_ of background,
>-> and background always won over rules.
>->  Just look at White Wolf and their WOD series.
> Amen!!!
>We do not need another system of rules! Just go back to cT or MT
>Rules, tell everybody to buy those for the rules, or reprint them in

        You're missing the point. Many people feel the TNE rules (myself
included) are a great improvement over CT or MT. Yes, I started with three
little black books. Then I moved along to the MT. Now I'm relatively happy
with TNE. Each step, I felt, was an improvement over the others. I DON'T
WANT TO GO BACK TO CT OR MT -- if I did, I'd still be there.
        What I _do_ want is the current rules with a few tweaks. And scads
of background material and adventures. I don't have the time or energy (or
creativity, frankly) to come up with all that stuff. And the effort spent
updating and reissuing the rules would better be spent on that kind of stuff.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@whip.com        http://www2.csn.net/~goldendj/index.html

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 19:04:55 -0800
From: dgpinfo@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger)
To: rodge@cyberspace.com
Subject: DGP & TRAVELLER!!!
Message-ID: <19960113030432.AAA12911@case.cyberspace.com>






ATTENTION DGP AND TRAVELLER FANS:


Concerning DGP & Traveller:

I've  been inundated  by queries  from fans  of Traveller and DGP
about DGP's role in Marc Miller's forthcoming Traveller odyssey.

Here  are  the  most  frequently  asked  questions,  and the most
interesting ones, followed by my responses:

    Will DGP aquire Traveller?

        No,  that is  not our  intention. Marc  Miller is back in
        town,  and  we   wholeheartedly  support  his  direction,
        wherever he may lead us.

    Will  DGP  publish  the  main  line  of  Traveller in its new
    incarnation?

        No. We've got  too many irons in the  fire (including our
        own brand new game system,  and other huge projects - see
        below) to take on the whole darn thing.

    Will DGP produce Traveller goodies like it used to?

        The  precise details  haven't  been  worked out  yet, but
        tentatively,  "yes".  (Please  see  my comments following
        this FAQ.)

    Will DGP start up the Travellers' Digest again?

        Let  me answer  this question  with another  question: Is
        this something you really really want?

    Will DGP make its past publications available?

        We  are looking  into the  best ways  to do this. (Please
        let  us  know  how  you  want  them:  Fried,  poached, or
        scrambled?  See below.)

    Will DGP  complete its unfinished  Traveller projects of  the
    past?

        It is too early to say. We'd like to, but this depends on
        many  factors, such  as how  well they  would fit in with
        Marc's agenda for Traveller, how much demand for each one
        there is from YOU, and so on. :)

    What were DGP's unfinished projects?

        The Black Duke
        The Omnesium Quest
        Grand Explorations
        Battles of the Rebellion (with Marc Miller)
        World Builder's on Computer
        Second Survey on Computer
        Robots & Cyborgs
        MegaTraveller Alien #3 - Zhodani & Droyne
        MegaTraveller Alien #4 - K'kree and  Hivers
        MegaTraveller Alien #5 - Humans and Nonhumans

        These  are  all  in  various  stages  of completion. Some
        barely entered the discussion stage, while others made it
        well into the writing stage.

    Will DGP make its library of Traveller publications available
    on CD-ROM?

        We're working on it. (See below)

    Will DGP ever finish A.I. (tm)?

        Hey, that's not a  Traveller-related question! Okay, I'll
        answer it  anyways. Yes, we  are working on  it. In fact,
        the  A.I.  (tm)  design   team  is  currently  recruiting
        kibitzers.


WHAT'S NEXT?
------------

BEFORE DGP can go into production of new material, we need to see
which way Marc Miller moves, and whether he decides that the next
step must be Traveller 4, or  whether he decides to retrench with
Classic Traveller, or Mega, or New Era.

In the meantime, DGP is limited in what we can develop and offer,
but  there may  be a  few  things  we can  put together,  without
conflicting with Mr. Miller's future designs.

Here are some ideas for  convenient gaming resources which DGP is
mulling over.  Please let me know  which of these you  would most
likely purchase if DGP made them available (in book form):

    THE GRAND TOUR -- All 21  episodes of the epic adventure from
    the  Travellers'  Digest  Magazine,  compiled  into one book,
    complete   with  support   material,  and   of  course   with
    embellishments and enhancements.

    ADVENTURE  RESOURCE  --  All  other  adventures and scenarios
    published by DGP from its various publications and magazines,
    with relevant support material.

    TECHNOLOGY &  EQUIPMENT -- All  medical essays, technological
    essays, and  equipment descriptions, compiled  into one book,
    gathered  from  issues  of  Travellers'  Digest Magazine, the
    MegaTraveller  Journal, and  from all  of DGP's  supplements,
    sourcebooks, and adventures.

    CAMPAIGN  RESOURCE --  A potpouri  of sociological  essays on
    Traveller cultures  and lifestyle, aliens,  history, regions,
    governments, agencies, Rebellion Factions, rules suggestions,
    and more. Arranged for easy reference.

If response is great enough, we'll submit a proposal to Marc.

;)


CD-ROM's and Such
-----------------

We at DGP were delighted when  Marc expressed his desire to see a
Traveller  CD-ROM  created  --  We've  been  wanting to put DGP's
entire archive of Traveller publications on CD-ROM for quite some
time  but decided  to hold  off on  development until the climate
surrounding Traveller changed. It finally has.

So, we've started work on gathering, recompiling, converting, and
reformatting our  computer file versions  into some semblance  of
order, to  someday be placed on  one nifty disk for  your viewing
pleasure.

:)

This  will certainly  be a  long and  arduous project, which will
likely take us months to complete.

We'll need all the help we can get!

If you think  you can assist us with this  project, please let me
know.

Sincerely,

Roger Sanger
Digest Group Publications


P.S.: If there  are any questions you'd liked  answered that were
not answered above, by all means, please ask away!


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 02:02:36 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Traveller is Dead.  Long Live Traveller!
Message-ID: <01HZZEZUQ3C28XETJ0@pimacc.pima.edu>

From:IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM" 10-JAN-1996 16:24:23.40
To:IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  "Multiple recipients of list"
CC:
Subj:RE: Traveller is Dead.  Long Live Traveller!

>In reply to two excellent postings in Traveller Digest #542:
>
>Cynthia-Hate to disagree, but I think we do need exactly what Marc said,
>a "consolidate" set of rules.  TNE is the "Yet Another Rules Set,"  I
>don't think a return to the roots would be a "bad thing."  ("Egon, I'm a
>little weak on this good thing/ bad thing concept.")

        I'm afraid I'm going to have to disagree with you.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I, in turn, will have to disagree with your disagreement.

In any case, I think the point is moot because I don't think MM is going
to go with a system that he doesn't have the rights too & TNE is/was GDW's
"house" system. As far as I'm concerned it was just another bad decision
by GDW to use the T2K system but now it seems that things will be better
now that MM's going back to his original system.

Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu


------------------------------

Date: 14 Jan 96 22:18:10 EST
From: jeff_michelle nort <103010.212@compuserve.com>
To: "INTERNET:traveller@mpgn.com" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: Home again
Message-ID: <960115031809_103010.212_GHU55-1@CompuServe.COM>

I, for one am deeply saddened of the demise of GDW. They have had their
problems and the road has been rocky. It was good news that M. Miller regained
the rights and materials of the system. With it in his hands, it has come full
circle and where it should be. A new era begins and I await it coming. I have
only one request: I truly hope that M. Miller WILL head the first law of
marketing: Listen to your customers.
I've been in Europe for over three years (on the goverment plan), and
have had a real trouble keeping abrest of the world of traveller. I could get
the books, but it seemed that Challange magazine was late and getting later. I
think I still have a few more issues coming to me... Any one else? (please, no
flaming....)
I hope that all that are involved do take a little time to get together,
orginize, discuss the options, and formit opinions.
You have ideas with some merit. Please take the time to do it right.
Everyone hates paying for rushed junk. I, personally, think you have too many
plans, but you are the holder and the choice IS yours.
I would like to ask you a few questions:
1). Where will the new traveller take place and will you support the
other campaigns?
2). Do you plan a support magazine like Challange or JTAS? Traveler
Digest?
3). What it the time table of all this? A year? Two?
4). How far will the support branch out? A traveller home page?
Licenceing?
IMO, it should begin in the Spinward Marches (time frame is the key),
give it some support, and bring in the other products where there is a
following. I like the Reformation Coalition/Guild branch. It has the friction of
CT and could go either way. The Regency branch has potential and looks fun. It
shows the dawn of a new era and a yearning to grow.

Traveller (the GDW ERA) is going, but the Traveller (new NEW ERA) is only
dawning. Bring back the old spirit that the original had, and the rest will sell
its self.
I, for one, will be watching, reading, and giving my .02cr worth.
And, it feels good being back home in the US of A and back in Traveller.

Jeff Norton

"Vini, Vedi, Vici,"J. Ceasar



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 01:03:07 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: What's Wrong With Traveller
Message-ID: <199601151403.BAA10055@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

What's Wrong with Traveller

There's been a lot of discussions as to a "wish list" of options now that
GDW has gone (or is almost so) down the gurgler re the development of
Traveller, so I'll put in my 2 cents worth ... heresy though they may be!
My attitude is that, basically, when it came out in 1977 it was, purely
by dint of being the only SF RPG available, the best ... but that *that*
fact is all that it had going for it *at the time*. Since then, very little
has changed as far as the *game system* is concerned ... but the *background*
is the thing that makes it unique and worthwhile, nothing else.

So, what's wrong with it? Some of the things that *really* stick in my
craw are --

1) The absolutely, completely, *inexcusibly* unworkable Technology Level
system. Sorry guys, I've followed the various arguments herein and I just
cannot accept that the system *as it exists* is worth a bent penny. Why?
Well, the areas that have been graced with TLs in the various iterations of
the TL charts make no sense.

For example, there is effectively *no difference at all* between the tech
needed to produce a TL/4 Cartridge Ammo weapon, a TL/5 Shotgun, a TL/6 Auto
Weapon-SMG-Autopistol, a TL/7 Grenade Launcher and, as far as the mechanical
components are concerned, a TL/10 Advanced Combat Rifle. Sorry, just makes
no sense.

Similarly, there is no real difference between the tech needed to produce
TL/3 Telegraph, TL/4 Telephone and TL/5 Radio & Radar, and TL/6 Television.

Environmental tech is also dubious. Cement structures not possible till  the
invention of Rifled Firearms ... tell it to the Romans! Cities in Rugged/
Desert (TL4), wellm I suppose it depends on what you mean by "cities", and'what
you mean by "desert", but there are many old civilisations that managed large
cities (for the day) in desert areas, built around oases or other water
sources that had to be husbanded carefully. Ditto "cities" in "jungles".

Then look at those Tech levels that *arent* tech levels. Primiitive Fusion
Plants (TL9) through to Fusion Plants/80 liter minimum (TL16) are no more
deserving of separate TLs than TL4 Steam Engines and TL5 IC engines. If Fusion
engines are given 8 TLs, then Steam/IC engines are at least deserving of
several more "TLs" than they actually get.

I mean, for ghu's sake, "Mobile Worlds/Sublight" (TL20) is only one TL, and
one TL below "Mobile Worlds/Jumpspace"!!! Get a sense of proportion here!!!

The whole problem is in the areas that Tech is rated in, you can't rate Tech
by a what Terra has (or may in the future) do. Tech is not about inventions,
it's about *capabilities*.

More realistic tech areas would be -- Mechanical, Materials, Electrical,
Electronic, Computing, Biomedical, and Energy Generation.

And, at least as important as the above -- *Production* technology.

This brings us to the second major gripe --

2) The cost of items is ridiculous. TL/12 Air/Rafts cost more than TL/15
Air/Rafts. Just like a Model T in 1927 cost more than a Model T in 1917
(it didn't, of course, in neither absolute nor in relative terms). Tech
gets *less* costly as it matures -- relative to the wages of the people
producing it *and* in absolute terms. Ergo, TL12 Air/Rafts should cost
*less* than TL15 Air/Rafts -- a whole hell of a lot less! Or, perhaps (if
you want to get pedantic) TL15 *versions* of TL12 Air Rafts should cost
a whole hell of a lot less!

Part of the problem is that it is a game mechanic -- in the early days the
creators did not want PCs to get such useful items too cheaply (not that
ATVs were all that much more realistic an alternative, pricewise). But it
makes no sense, it's like Longbows being more expensive than swords in D&D.
No justification at all *in reality*.

The other part of the problem is, how do you relate 1 Cr of currency between
a TL12 (or any other TL) planet and a TL15 (say) planet. There is *no* easy
way of doing so. Think of it this way, you can live *very* cheaply on US$
in (say) China ... but not at US tech! If you want to live a US lifestyle *in*
China, you probably have to pay a premium *in some areas*. The reverse is also
true, a Chinese could not realistically expect to live *any* sort of life in
the US on Chinese yuan (or, to be more accurate, on a normal Chinese salary
*converted* to US$).

Not an easy problem to solve -- only TNE has come up with any sort of rule for
it all all, and there they assume that a TL12-TL15 character can save no more
than 5000 Cr per 4 year term. And that's cash *and* equipment. I would say
that there is no reason why any reasonable person could not save 20% of their
salaray per year ... ergo, 5000 Cr is 20% of 4 years salary, and this means
that they are earning 6250 Cr per annum! Compare this to the price of things
and see how ridiculous it is.

This problem with economics makes all the costings in FF&S *extremely*
suspect at the very least ... and that's just a small part of the whole
problem area!

3) Costs & Production: Think about it, we're talking about c5500 AD, right?
OK, there have been some "dark age" interludes (where some planets at least
kept space and starflight, so they didn't get knocked all the way back).
Yet it takes 12 months to produce a 100 ton Star/Spaceship! 9 months if its
a Scout/Courier, because they're so common. Hm, we can, *right now* produce
a Boeing 747 in, what, a day or so when the production line is fully geared
up? A 747 weighs around 170 tons *unloaded*.

Why so long? Sure, there are anti-Robot sentiments in the Imperium and the
Solomani Sphere, but surely we are looking at factories where things are
automated so much more than they are today. Thus, there seems no reason why
such a small vessel would take so long to produce. Sure, there may be
delays for the shipyard to work you into their schedule, but the actual
production time would be a few weeks at most (and that only for such relatively
nonstandard parts as the JDrives, *if anything at all*). Even the delays to
get into the waiting list would be minimal, especially for something like the
Scout/Courier which is in constant demand ... ditto the Far Trader/Fat Trade
and Subsidised Merchant.

For ghu's sake, we did better than this with Liberty/Victory ships in WW2, and
very well even with Warships! With automation that will exist at TL/15 we
cannot assume that there will be no improvements at all!

This automation of production has interesting implications for all prices in
the book as well. The effects of automation have been to increase overall
productivity and simultaneously decrease costs ... living standards (wages
and the like) rise ... yet the Imperium is strangely impoverished. Sort of
like a 5600 AD Stalinist Command Economy! (maybe that's the answer - the
Vilani dominated imperium like it that way!) Costs of items do not reflect
this factor at all in any way. A major flaw. The Imperium is obviously the
57th Century version of a handcraft and cottage industry level economy!

4) The Ship design rules, and FF&S in general, stink. I do *not* want to be
in the position where you need a spreadsheet and hours of complicated
tradeoffs as a requirement to be able to design a starship ... or anything
else, for that matter. High Guard was good enough for me and, I suspect,
for all the players that GDW must have lost over the years, as I presume
that if Traveller was still a major money-spinner that Chadwick and his
partner would not be winding up the company!

I (and *all* the members of the gaming groups that I have belonged to over
the years) thought that Megatraveller (and, now, FF&S) ship design rules
are an unmitigated disaster. Most simply refuse to acknowledge their existence
*at all* and use High Guard (or bootlegged copies thereof) ... though they
might use some of the stuff from MTrav to tweak High Guard designs a little
bit in a handful of cases. I mean, it stands to reason, if Traveller was
such a resounding success with MTRav and TNE design rules, they'd still
be in business!

As for FF&S in general. Crap. Heresy! The system may well enable you to
design something similar to modern tech items, but the high tech stuff shows
no imagination at all. There's a lot of self-congratulatory rubbish about
how all the tech items make sense because they had to work that way, and
how certain technologies that are standard fare for SF are not allowed
because they aren't hard science. What rubbish. Look at predictions and
Science in the last hundred or so year ... for more than a decade or so
(at most) in the future they are not reliable at all. No Thruster Plate
tech in FF&S because it violates the Law of Conservation of Momentum! Well,
sure, it violates 20th century *understanding* of the physical universe, but
does that mean that 57th century understanding of the physical universe will
not have found out that ours is flawed and incomplete? Would Copernicus have
accepted Einstein any more easily than he was accepted by those who thought
his world view crazy heresy? Can we be certain that Einstein will not be
regarded as simple-minded and incomplete in 100 years, let alone 3000 odd?

The answer is, quite obviously, *no*. I would suggest that it is inherently
impossible to have a system such as FF&S that can really be regarded as
acceptable ... it will always have to be redesigned every five or ten years
to keep it "advanced". I mean, look at GDW's original Advanced Combat Rifle
of 1977 ... pretty much like the H&K G-11; now they are calling ETC ammo
"state of the art", and it probably won't ever get off the ground any more
than the turretless tanks in TW:2000 did. Nope, design systems for space
and starships are about as much as you can reasonably hope to do, and only
on the level of High Guard. For the rest, well, my WAG designs are just as
likely to be "realistic" as any that FF&S can come up with!

5) Megatraveller: Task Resolution -- I am surprised that there is *anyone*
out there who thinks that the Task Resolution system of MTrav was anything
but a complete waste of space. Never used it, don't know anyone who did (or,
if they did, who did for very long), longwinded, overly complex, and generally
unuseable. Even Classic Trav was better.

As for TNE, the main problem is that it is TW:2000 in alll ways. Now, don't
get me wrong, I think that TW:2000 is a neat little system, but it should
have been presented with the *roleplaying* elements to the fore in TNE. I
suspect that one of the reasons that TNE hasn't succeeded is because it
forces people to play a combat wargame version of an RPG ... and most people
are attracted to Traveller because of the richness of its roleplaying
background. You only have to look at the Space Vikings and Regency Material
published to date ... heavy on the firepower and military action. Even MTrav
and the Civil War didn't do that.

Well, there's a lot more, but that's all for now.

Phil McGregor
(Co-designer of "Space Opera")

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:39:52 MET
From: "V.A.G." <GREI5001@pcmail.uni-trier.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 547
Message-ID: <8C2BED442B6@pcmail.uni-trier.de>


-> I'd be curious to know what sort of response there's been to the idea of a new
-> rule system.  I'd guess that it's fairly mixed.  There are a fair number of
-> Traveller "dissidents" who never converted to TNE rules and probably wouldn't
-> mind a new rule set based on Classic Traveller.  From what I've seen, however,
-> more folks (at least on the TML) would like to see the TNE rules take precedence
-> over any other rule systems.
VAG
--------------------------------------------------------------
-Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!!


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:43:09 MET
From: "V.A.G." <GREI5001@pcmail.uni-trier.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Sorry, another mistake
Message-ID: <8C2CC9D75C9@pcmail.uni-trier.de>

I wanted to comment on the above but pressed send before i did:

Please don not, repeat do not use the TNE System or anything based on
it for rules. The older (CT/MT) rules were much better, easier to use
and faster! GDW House System was, well let's say GDW's House System!
It was too wargame-like, if you know wht i mean!
VAG
--------------------------------------------------------------
-Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!!


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 11:45:54 -0500
From: mitch@intersys.com (Mitch Schwartz)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Early TL comments
Message-ID: <96Jan15.115608est.20482@gateway.intersys.com>


Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more
difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing in the tempting place.
                    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

Official:                                                Unofficial:
mitch@intersys.com                     Ted7@world.std.com
                                                     http://world.std.com/~Ted7


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 12:37:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: Re:  YARS
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960115122847.21329A-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

While I agree in general that a new rules set is a bad idea.  I
think Marc Miller is looking more at publishing MT again, with some
revisions.  I think this is a great idea!  Sorry to be a dissident, but I
hate the TNE rules, they are so ponderous that they get in the way of what
the game is really about.  One of the great things about the original
Traveller rules is that their simplicity allowed for a great deal of
roleplaying and less "roll-playing". Also, while the MT rules were a
logical extension and expansion of CT, the TNE rules came right out of
left field with a completely new system.  I have no idea why they did
this, it turned off a number of old players I'm sure (me, for one!)
Someone said that White Wolf is doing well because they put out tons of
background and don't worry about rules.  One of the reasons they can do
this is that the rules are bonehead simple, and that's the way it should
be.  With some tweaking I think a revised MT rules set would be excellent.
Also, I LOVE the idea of FF&S LITE.

Here's an interesting question:  If MM does publish a revised MT rules
set, what should it be called?

Charles.

<0>         "The mind is stranger than it can imagine."<0>
<0> Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), <0>
<0> Psychology Department, McGill University.  <0>
<0> 1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  <0>


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 08:24:18 +1300
From: Simon.Harding@vuw.ac.nz
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: reply
Message-ID: <199601151924.IAA10539@rata.vuw.ac.nz>

> I've always thought that the NPC wound system is a cop-out at
best.  Wounds should be handled the same for both PCs and NPCs.  If that's an
issue, maybe a hybrid of old and new would work.  But at the behest of those of
us who just don't want to buy and learn the third completely new rule system in
18 years of Traveller, please don't change the system drastically from what it
is today.<

I have always found that the best wound system for Traveller is
"On Target".


Simon Harding


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 16:44:48 -0500
From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: What's Wrong With Traveller
Message-ID: <9601151644.AA48779@caw.intercon.com>

Hello,

Phil McGregor makes some really good points about problems with the various
Traveller systems, but I have a minor comment or two.  Specifically:

 very little has changed as far as the *game system* is concerned ...
> but the *background* is the thing that makes it unique and
> worthwhile, nothing else.

Mostly true.  I think the ability to design stuff is important, and that
impacts rules, but other than that I agree.

> 2) The cost of items is ridiculous. TL/12 Air/Rafts cost more than
> TL/15 Air/Rafts. Tech gets *less* costly as it matures -- relative to the
> wages of the people producing it *and* in absolute terms. Ergo, TL12 Air/
> Rafts should cost *less* than TL15 Air/Rafts -- a whole hell of a lot
> less! Or, perhaps (if you want to get pedantic) TL15 *versions* of
> TL12 Air Rafts should cost a whole hell of a lot less!

Not always.  I think the assumption is made that we are talking about
equivalent capabilities of the objects in question, i.e., the air rafts are
the same, but the tech level of the factory producing it is different.  The
first Walkman-type tape players were large, bulky and expensive.  Now, for
less money, I can get something half the size, with more features and better
sound.  Something that used to be sold by salesmen in the stereo section is
now sold hanging from steel pegs in plastic wrap.

So, in conclusion, the TL system is only 90% broken.  <grin>


> 4) The Ship design rules, and FF&S in general, stink. I do *not* want
> to be in the position where you need a spreadsheet and hours
> of complicated tradeoffs as a requirement to be able to design a
> starship ... or anything else, for that matter...

I would like to see a system somewhere in the middle, with optional rules for
greater or lesser complexity.  Anybody remember the Naval Architects Manual
from Star Cruiser?  That didn't seem so bad...


> As for FF&S in general. ... There's a lot of self- congratulatory
> rubbish about how all the tech items make sense because they had to
> work that way, and how certain technologies that are standard fare for
> SF are not allowed because they aren't hard science....No Thruster
> Plate tech in FF&S because it violates the Law of Conservation
> of Momentum!

I agree, these are problems.  I was sorry to see thruster plates go, for
exactly the same reasons.  Sure, we couldn't build thruster plates today, we
don't even have a theory as to how they work, but who knows what is possible
several thousand years from now.  As long as there are some limits on the
technology preventing it from being used as magic (unlike the warp engines or
transporter on the $tar$hip Enterpri$e, for example) I'm happy.

I think there was a mistake made in differentiating between _science_ and
_technology_.  Be grounded _in_ current science, but don't be grounded _by_
current technology.

But, if I remember correctly, weren't thruster plates included in FF&S as an
option, just like stutterwarp?  The neat thing about RPGs is that you cxan
change the rules you don't like.  I personally got the impression that a large
chunk of the problems with FF&S could be solved to most people's satisfaction
by fiddling (say, by dividing the resulting weight by 2 and multiplying the
endurance by 2).


> As for TNE, the main problem is that it is TW:2000 [which] is a
> neat little system, but it should have been presented with
> the *roleplaying* elements to the fore in TNE. I suspect that one of
> the reasons that TNE hasn't succeeded is because it forces people to
> play a combat wargame version of an RPG ... and most people are
> attracted to Traveller because of the richness of its
> roleplaying background. You only have to look at the Space Vikings
> and Regency Material published to date ... heavy on the firepower
> and military action. Even MTrav and the Civil War didn't do that.

Yup.  I don't mind that stuff, but there should have been more non-military
stuff.

> Co-designer of "Space Opera"

Would that be _the_ Space Opera, done by FGU in the late 70s?  If so, let me
congratulate you on the effort.  I know a lot of people who played Traveller
with the space combat rules totally replaced by the rules from SO.  I still
think it has a lot to offer...

Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may
someday agree with something I say.


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 548
***************************
