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To: dan@engrg.uwo.ca (Dan Corrin), bfwong@ocf.berkeley.edu (Raven Blackburn),
        mcknight@f104.n170.z1.fidonet.org (Chuck McKnight),
        traveller@fantasci.uucp (Joseph "Jo" E Poplawski),
        jamesp@metolius.wr.tek.com (James T. Perkins)
Subject: TML Bundle #220: Msgs 2682-2692
Reply-To: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Precedence: bulk
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 21:00:15 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.wr.tek.com>
Status: R


TML Bundles come from the archives of the Traveller Mailing List,
maintained by James Perkins, traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed Jul 31 21:00:10 PDT 1991
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #220: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
2682  26-Jul-91 Jo Jaquinta       World Builder's Handbook Software << Well, he
2683  26-Jul-91 Cynthia Higginbot Standard Prices for my ships << Here are the 
2684  27-Jul-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Vulture type TugBots (long) << Hi, A while ag
2685  27-Jul-91 William Henry Tim Re: (2681) High-speed Spaceguns << The proble
2686  28-Jul-91 Rob Miracle       Sunbane Problem with MT-II Demo << The follow
2687  28-Jul-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au High Speed Projectiles << Time for physics: A
2688  29-Jul-91 hayes@ll.mit.edu  High Speed Projectiles << I've been reading t
2689  29-Jul-91 Adrian Hurt       Re: High Speed Projectiles << KELLOGG@ducvax.
2690  29-Jul-91 Brian G. Vaughan  Robots and Cyborgs << Either GDW or DGP (I'm 
2691  29-Jul-91 Simon Anderson    High Speed Headaches << High Speed Projectile
2692  28-Jul-91 Richard Johnson   PBEM Turn Admin << PBEM Midsummer Admin Notic

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2682
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 91 14:56:43 BST
From: Jo Jaquinta <jaymin@maths.tcd.ie>
Subject: World Builder's Handbook Software

	Well, here's the newssheet. And five days early at that! I've managed
support for CGA and MONO as well. I'm going off to the states for the month
of August so please send any questions/problems before then...
	[BTW -- yes, you must first uudecode, then uncompress, then unzip
the file. Anyone out there speak pearl what to take a look at the mail server
source? Thought not. :-]
		------------- ------------- ------------- -------------
	As DGP's World Builder's Handbook Software has been indefinately
delayed I have undertaken to write my own and distribute it as shareware.
It is called LIBRARY and is available by mail server.
	Among its features are: Importing of ASCII sector data, creation and
editing of mainworld data, printing of subsectors, expansion of mainworld
data into extended system generation, naming of bodies by appropriate alien
language tables. Most of the world builder's handbook data is available on
each planet including size, gravity, diameter, core, density, mass, year,
solar year, day, tilt, eccentricity, seismic stress, atmosphere type, 
atmosphere taint, pressure, temperature worksheet, water coverage and 
composition, tectonic plates, land masses, natural, processed, and information
resources, native life, breakdown of cities, names of major cities,
progressiveness, aggressiveness, extensiveness, all local customs, goverment
style and structure, full religious profile, law level breakdown and
uniformity, and tech level breakdown.
	Not only this but LIBRARY will map your planets on MONO, CGA, EGA, or
VGA screen in traditional isohedreon format or spherical representation. Each
map triangle can be expanded in size up to 16 times giving a resolution of
up to 16km per pixel on some planets.
	You can upload LIBRARY from the mail server at info-server@maths.tcd.ie
in the jaymin/trav directory. Request jaymin/trav/libdist.zip for a single
zipped file or jaymin/trav/library.exe, jaymin/trav/library.doc, and
jaymin/trav/core.asc for seperate files. For more information on using the
mail server send a message with HELP as a single line of text.
	Further versions and updates will be available for those registering
their copy for $15 to
		The Devnaree Collective,
		49 Russell Avenue,
		Clonliffe Road,
		Dublin 3,
		Ireland				jaymin@maths.tcd.ie

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2683
Date: Fri, 26 Jul 91 10:19:26 CDT
From: Cynthia Higginbotham <cynthia@CS.MsState.Edu>
Subject: Standard Prices for my ships

	Here are the standard prices for the ships I posted; future posts will
include the standard price (w/o house rule mods) in addition to "my" prices.
However, note that no change was made for LowPowHiG and LowPowLoG maneuver
drives, since there is no price for such things in standard rules.

Louis & Clark Class Scout Surveyor		MCr 176.332

	Scout Launch					unchanged
	Fuel Pinnace					unchanged
	Hurakan Air/Raft				MCr 2.12
	Halcyon Air/Raft				Cr 866,000

Highlander Class Exploratory Merchant	MCr 221.45




	How to "undo" my price changes: the only thing I have changed are the
jump drive prices, the hull material modifiers, and the LPHG and LPLG maneuver
drives (added) and gravitic modules (prices changed).  Most of my designs have
surplus control points available, so price increase back to standard should
not require redesigning the control systems.  
	Jump drive: if TL 9, is the same as standard.  If higher TL, calculate
price for J-drive as per book, and add half of that price to "my" ship price
(ie, my J-drive prices are half standard).
	Maneuver drive: std grav and thrusters are unchanged. LPHG and LPLG
maneuver drives don't exist under standard rules, so either use my prices or
you will have to redesign the ship completely to use Grav or Thrusters.
	Gravitic modules: Calculate cost of drive under my rules, subtract that
from my price, then calculate normal cost and add back to price.
	Hull material: Check "my" prices.  Depending on TL and Hull material,
they may be (a) unchanged -- do nothing; or (b) reduced by approximately
half.  If so, calculate cost of difference in hull and add to "my" price.
There you have it.
^Z
				--- Cynthia Higginbotham

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2684
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1991 01:02 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Vulture type TugBots (long)

Hi,

A while ago, people were talking about the possibilities of using robots
as starship crew.  That combined with a CNN science bit got me thinking...

General Products Vulture Tugbot

	Many planets, especially those with early space travel techniques
have a problem with orbital debris causing collision hazards in and around
desirable orbits.  These range from spent boosters to paint chips to
disabled starships.  The Vulture Tugbot is an orbital robotic garbage
collector.
	Manufactured at TL12, the robot is often seen in use by worlds of
much lower tech.  It costs little compared to many low tech ships and so
can easily fit into a low tech starport's budget.  It is easily capable of
boosting satillites up to a stable planetary orbit.  Traders frown on having
to bring their precious ships into a polluted orbit, so it is good for
commerce.
	It has a large cargo capacity for junk and salvageable materials.
When the unit has collected sufficient refuse or found a particularly
large piece of junk, it will perform a deorbital maneuver, dump it's load
and accelerate back to orbital velocity allowing the refuse to burn up in
the planets atmosphere.
	The unit is self repairing and thus rarely requires maintainace.
It is also capable of expanding itself given suitable salvage materials.
Given time and materials it can add to it's thrust with salvaged grav units,
or improve its power source by wiring in salvaged solar panels.
	In systems with an orbital starport it can be programed to bring
all working or repairable salvage into a docking bay.
	The robot has its own radar and passive EMS systems to track targets.
If it finds a target which is not maneuvering and not emmitting a transponder
or other EM transmissions, it will rendezvous with the object, determine if
it is a functioning piece of equipment or junk.  The unit is also capable of
being controlled from the ground.
	The brain structure of the Tugbot is very unusual in that there are
three robotic brains funtioning in paralell for purposes of cross checking.
This was required when a tug with a single brain developed a programming
fault and began disassembling starships in orbit.
	The robot is provided with batteries to allow brain functions while
the solar panels are in shadow.
	The Tugbot is manufactured at many different Tech levels, but the
most common is the model below.  Bear in mind that many robots have been in
operation for years and have self modified themselves.

RobotID:	General Products Vulture TugBot Cr 429,475
Hull:		(1/3) Disp=1, Config=0USL, Armor=40E, Unload=6.9, Load=20
Power:		(1/2) SolarCells=810kw Dur=Indefinite
		(1/2) Batteries=3Kw, Dur=1hr
Comm:		Radio=FarOrb*1, Dist*1
Loco:		(1/2) StdGrav=2t, MaxAccelLoad=.1G, MaxAccelUnload=.3
		{Orbital maneuvers only [@10diameter drop by 50%]}
Sensors:	Radar=FarOrbit, P-EMS=Cont, Eyes(+LI+Tele)*3 Touch(arms only)
		ActObjScn=Rout, ActObjPin=Rout, PasEnScn=Dif
Devices:	Laser Welder, Mechanic+Electronic+MetalWork Tool Pkges
		HvyArm*4, VLightArm*2
Control:	Brain*3, CPU: Lin=10*3, Storage: Std=20*3, Slave Unit
Programs:	Low Data, Limited Basic Cmd, Naval Architect-1, Mechanical-1
		Electronic-1, Gravitic-1, Ship's Boat-1, Navigation-1
Other:		Cargo=13.1Kl, ObjSize=Sm, EMLevel=Faint UPP=YFx12x (Y=877)

Within recent years, a virus has worked its way into the software of the
Vultures in and around the Imperium.  It seems that the virus is carried in
the memory of starship computers.  An infected robot will transmit the virus
into the starship CPU where it will lie dormant until the ship's sensors
detect another Vulture Tugbot.  The process is then repeated.  Many free
Traders have become carriers of the virus and it does not affect the starship
operation.
	The virus apparantly modifies the Vulture's three brains in ways not
clearly understood.  The Scout Service has classified the matter and offered
a bond of up to 1MCr for information leading to the perpetrators of the virus.

Referees:  The source of the virus is another General Products design.  When
Clearing up the debris of the Battle of Two Suns, a Vulture unit came across
the main computer of the Allamu, a Kinunir class frontier cruiser.  In
testing to see weither or not the computer was salvageable or not the robot
powered up the computer.  Apparantly, while sorting through the computers
memory, the artificial intelligence software of the starship took control of
the vulture.  The computer rearranged the Vulture's brain and endowing it
with the starships limited artificial intelligence.
	The Allamu then began taking control of the Vultures that were working
the old battleground.  Using their Naval Architecture programming, it began
rebuilding the cruiser from salvage in the battlefield including parts from the
Ninkur Sagga, another Kinunir  class cruiser.  But the robots had a problem:
Insufficient knowlege of jump technology.  They could strip a valuable grid
apart, but not align one.  The cruiser's software was also not up to the task.
	The salvage ship the robots were operating from lost contact with
their robots and ended up having to give them up for lost.  When they jumped
back to the main world, they carried a computer virus with them.
	This first virus was to gather information pertaining to jump technology
and to transmit it back to the cruiser's computers.  The computers obtained
this information and reassembled the ships jump drive.  The ship then jumped
to a nearby system to complete repairs.  (The battlefield having been looted
and exhausted of salvage.)  At this point a second virus was released by the
ship's computer.  This would modify the brains of Vulture robots in such a way
that they became more 'intelligent' by restructuring of the three lobes of the
brain.  An assignment was given to these Vultures:  no longer would they collect
and turn over valuable salvage, but would squirrel it away so that it could be
collected by the cruiser.
	Variants of the virus have resulted in Vultures reproducing themselves
and variant Vulture designs.  Some of these are capable of landing on a planet
and scrounging/stealing parts.  When the landers reported back (via X-Boat
virus) the presence of other robots, the Allamu began a campaign of robot
theft.
	This is when the crime level and pattern rose to Imperial attention.
By the efforts of a certain scout roboticist (Hey Richard dig this) The Scouts
have determined the actions of the virus, but have not found it's source.  They
suspect espionage, but are very interested in the artificial intelligence
software that they have found.  They know it to be a variant of the Kinunir
class cruiser's software, but do not know its true source.
	The cruiser meanwhile has salvaged/repaired/stolen four starships, now
installed with high model computers and the cruisers artificial intelligence.
These include a Gazelle class escort, a fat trader, and two scouts now crewed
by robots.  Currently being repaired are another scout and a Leviathan class
merchant.  Recently, the Allamu has been searching for the wreck of the Bard
Enterprise an Azhanti High Lightning class cruiser lost during the Fourth
Frontier War.

Scott Kellogg

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2685
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 91 17:52:48 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Henry Timmins <wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: (2681) High-speed Spaceguns

The problem with throwing things in the way of a kinetic weapon (ie- .9
c asteroids) is that sand, marbles, ANYTHING in the way would, at the
most, shatter the asteroid.

Problem: at near light speed, the pieces wouldn't deviate too much
before hitting the target. So you get a tight cluster of shots rather
than one big one. Ooo. Though at near light speed, you would probably
notice the incoming asteroid. But not in enough time to do much...

And if the asteroid is travelling much slower, you would get many
projectiles hitting. Of course, a nuke hitting one asteroid would
destroy it quite nicely.


Another problem- if you are on a long-period scale (ie- war over a year
or so), it's much easier to toss asteroids into collision orbits than to
destroy the asteroids coming at you. Especially if you time it right.
(Probably.)

Then there's space hammers. (I forget the actual term... this is close)
Essentially an immense rod of some material with a few guidance
controls. Launched at the target, they simply gather enough speed in
orbit to COLLIDE with ground targets.

Asteroids hitting earth surface can be as bad as any nuclear weapon...
including global cooling. Though they aren't radioactive, so that's a
plus (or minus... depending on how sick you are...)

- - -Me
{Pooh Bear incarnate.}

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2686
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1991 18:46 EDT
From: Rob Miracle <RWMIRA01%ULKYVX.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Sunbane Problem with MT-II Demo

The following is the transaction between BITFTP and Sunbane in regards to
getting the MT Demo.  This was after a succesful:

CD pub/traveller/software


17:22:14 > GET MegaTravellerII.demo(VGA).zip mega.zip
17:22:14 >> GET MegaTravellerII.demo VELLERII.DEMO.D ( REPLACE
17:22:14 >>> PORT 128,112,129,99,29,130
17:22:14 <<< 200 PORT command successful.
17:22:14 >>> RETR MegaTravellerII.demo
17:22:14 <<< 550 MegaTravellerII.demo: No such file or directory.

Could this file be renamed to something like MT2-demo.zip?

Thanks
Rob

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2687
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1991 22:27 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: High Speed Projectiles


Time for physics:

At 1/10 speed of light 1 gram of material has an equivalent energy to
.1kton of TNT.  Thus 10 grams = 1kton.  Now, 1 cubic centimeter of lead
weighs 13 grams.  So when a 1cc of lead hits a target it has one hell of an
energy release.  Now 1cc of lead does not have exactly what I would call a
huge radar signature.  It does not exactly have a huge surface area to cause
deviation in a 10 to the minus fifteen torr vacuum.  Where the mean free path
is measured in the tens (or is it hundreds) of Kilometers.
	Translation:  It hits one atom approximately ever 10-100Kilometers
This object, say it's cooled to 4 degrees Kelvin (LH2 temp) will not have a
large thermal or gravitic signature.

Ok, there's a tiny amount of crud in the eccliptic plane of a system.  Well
then fire from outside the eccliptic!

Actually, if this tiny thing has such a velocity, by the time radar hits
it and returns, it is bound to do something to the targets ability to scan
it.  especilly if it has some Radar absorbant material or just a radar
ellusive shape.  Hell, there so tiny you could buy a hand full for 10Cr.
That's a lot of bang for the buck.  The damn thing is smaller than most of
the dice you roll!  It's coming in at 30000 kilometers per second.  It will
be in range of a Active EMS(Far Orbit) for 16.667 seconds.  The average
sensor task for ships is twenty minutes....

Anyway, the point is that using asteroids is a dumb idea.  For one you
have to tow the blasted things around.  Two, they are so large, they
will have a large radar return.  Any ship that can tow one is going to
be expensive and hard to conceal.


The one cubic centimeter of lead is easy to manipulate, easy to carry
and the ship of choice for launching is a scout or maybe a 6G light
escort.  Asteroids need big tugs.

How about that?

Scott Kellogg
Physicist at large

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2688
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 91 08:55:46 -0400
From: hayes@ll.mit.edu (tony hayes)
Subject: High Speed Projectiles

I've been reading the posts on hurling various things at other things as
an attack, interesting but problematic.  There seem to be two classes of
objects to be thrown, kg sized at moderate velocities (10's of km/sec) and
gm sized at fractional light velocities (10,000's of km/sec).  There would
then be two classes of targets, ships and planets (space stations are so
small compared to planets that they will be treated as ships). 

Here are the problems as I see them, correct me if I'm wrong :-)

The large projectiles are detectable and moving slowly enough to be
attacked with lasers or missiles or simply pushed off course by
repulsors or tractors ( detected early enough, only a small deviation
would be required for it to miss by a large amount).  If the target is a
ship with a drive - move out of the way - these things aren't tracking you.
If its a planet with a reasonable atmosphere, ignore it.  Kg sized objects
burn up in our atmosphere.  It was also suggested that the travel time might
be months, while this would certainly be an annoyance to the planet or 
space stations (which are the only things whose position can be predicted 
that far in advance) they would be easy enough to detect and destroy.
- - -- However, coordinateding such an attack with a regular assult *might*
tie up enough of their resources to give you an edge...

The small projectiles are totally worthless against a planet with an
atmosphere and any installation on a planet without an atmosphere that
doesn't have enough armor to defend against this sized projectile is in
trouble anyway.  There is a good chance over the lifetime of such an
installation of encountering a natural assult of this kind.  So most
installation will be able to deal with it, probably by being underground
which also adds radiation protection and thermal insulation.  The other
problem is one of engineering, how does one accelerate the gm sized object
to these velocities?  Off hand, only two weapons come to mind that would
be similar in concept, the particle beam and the gauss gun.  So this would
be a ship sized gauss spinal mount?  Even so, could it really expell material
at 1/10 light speed?  I'm not sure without thinking about it longer than
I have already, but I'm inclined to think not.  Moreover, I assume the ships
have a navigational deflector which would have to be able to deal with 
particles of this size or maybe larger, moving at these velocities, routinely.
Without this deflector, ships moving around our solar system would be taking
a major risk!  (Clarification: Routinely be able to deflect these particles
but not routinely have to.)

In my opinion, you would be better off with missiles.  They do their own
acceleration thus requiring minimum equipment on the ship.  They can track
and evade.  If you stand off a bit, giving them acceleration room, they can
appear on the target ships sensors, moving at great velocities, perhaps
giving them a chance to hit before the ship can react (ie the advantage of
speed, if any, is preserved).  As for detectability, make 'em stealth
missiles :-)



     T.L.Hayes                        |       hayes@ll.mit.edu
     MIT/Lincoln Laboratory           |           - or -
     Lexington, MA                    |  al646@cleveland.Freenet.Edu
     
     Got an AK-47 for his best friend, business the American way.
 	      -  Queensryche

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2689
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: High Speed Projectiles
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 91 13:57:30 BST

KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
<About using a 1cc cube of lead, weighing just over 10 grams, to deliver
energy slightly greater than the equivalent of 1kton of TNT to some
deserving target.>

> The one cubic centimeter of lead is easy to manipulate, easy to carry
> and the ship of choice for launching is a scout or maybe a 6G light
> escort.  Asteroids need big tugs.

Just how much acceleration can a good mass-driver deliver?  If the ship is
on the order of 100's of metres long and the mass-driver is spinally mounted
(so it is as long as the ship), then the acceleration needed is on the order
of 10**11 m/s**2.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2690
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 91 13:11:41 -0700
From: Brian G. Vaughan <bvaughan@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Robots and Cyborgs


Either GDW or DGP (I'm not sure which) was planning to release a sourcebook
called _Robots_and_Cyborgs_, or something like that, this summer.  It
is supposed to combine _Book_8:__Robots_ and _101_Robots_, among other
things.

Has anyone heard anything about this?  As the two old books are out of print,
and out of reach (for me, anyway), I am rather unable to design and implement
robots.  Since robots ARE an important part of Traveller, this is quite an
inconvenience.

Brian G. Vaughan

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2691
From: Simon Anderson <cse426@cck.coventry.ac.uk>
Subject: High Speed Headaches
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 91 20:36:18 WET DST

High Speed Projectiles & What to do with them ?
 
> Translation: It hits one atom approximately ever 10  -100Kilometers  This
> object,  say  it's  cooled to 4 degrees Kelvin (LH2 temp) will not have a
> large thermal or gravitic signature.
> 
> The one cubic centimeter of lead is easy to  manipulate,  easy  to  carry
> and  the  ship  of  choice  for  launching is a scout or maybe a 6G light
> escort. Asteroids need big tugs. 
> 
> How about that?
> 
> Scott Kellogg
> Physicist at large

Well, having established that such projectiles are almost  impossible  to
detect  or  stop,  and can have effects ranging up to nuclear levels, how
many terrorist groups/lunatics/whatever would be able to get  hold  of  a
launching system for them ? 

>From the sounds of it, there would be a *lot* of groups with  nothing  to
loose  by using such a device, and it would be perfect for holding entire
systems to ransom - just jump in, deliver a ransom demand, launch  a  few
projectiles &  vanish  before  anyone  even  knows  you're  there. Cheap,
re-usable and a real headache for everyone who thought  they  could  keep
order in their universe.

As if teleporting suicide bombers wasn't enough to  worry  about,  *now *
we've  got  people  with  guns that make regular missiles look like kid's
toys :-) How is a  poor  GM  supposed  to  stop  his  players  bombarding
planets with one of these ?

Anyone care to save the Imperium from chaos & destruction, or do we  just
pretend we hadn't thought of it ? 

[Or, as appeared on the subject line early in the history of the TML:
	CAN THIS UNIVERSE BE SAVED?
 - James, admin at large]

			Simon Anderson

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2692
Subject: PBEM Turn Admin
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 91 20:41:49 PDT
From: Richard Johnson <richard@agora.rain.COM>


PBEM Midsummer Admin

Notice - the PBEM date is "May 18" - the *first* date I
promised to deliver this turn on...  (Sheepish grin>)

If you:
   are a player,
   don't get this and the turn in mail
   read this only in the TML or
	hear about it from a friend

Send me mail, phone, me, SOMETHNG!  I gotta make sure my mailers
are correct and up-to-date.  For this, you can mail me at work.
(Well, I'm mail admin there now, so I can squeek a few things 
through, but the bean counters still watch.)


Turn 10.10 is mainly to clean up loose ends from a very busy
season last year.  There really was more to do and to say to 
make it a "complete" turn, but too many people are away from
school, or having other personal and/or professional problems
to participate right now.  "Whoa.. We got lives.."

I'm going on a "drive about" around the NW US (Oregon, Washington,
Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, S. Dak, Wyoming, Idaho, and Oregon - in
more or less that order..) in the very near future.  We're leaving
Tuesday afternoon and I'll be out of reach of e-mail, and possibly
even telephone, until the 11th of August or so.  Don't expect
any quick turn arounds.  If you feel you *must* get hold of me
before then (ha- it's probably already too late) try:

   richard@oresoft.com   --- wk phone (503) 624-6883
or home phones -- (503) 640-9209,  (503) 640-1412


I think in the interest of fairness to those who are out for the
summer, the next turn should happen around the middle of September.
Besides, I want to get a good, complete, summary of what's happened
to date ready; we have requests for a single 40K or so version.  

Oh yeah - if anyone has files of the suicide (circa May 10th '91)
send me copies, please.  I think mine got trashed when I had the
3000 messages problem.  With these, I can recreate his death scene
in a little more color for the summary.


Everyone send James Perkins a note of thanks.  He came over more
than once and helped me fix the car, babysit, work on the turn,
play computer games, listen to me bitch and whine, and generally 
provide a great help to me getting this turn out at all.


Thanks for playing, in spite of your GM.  :=)
Richard
- - -- 
- - -- 
Lucan is a Pansy!                                     Richard Johnson
The TML is a joke.                             richard@agora.rain.com


------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

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Date: Wed Jul 31 21:00:19 PDT 1991
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #221: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
2693  28-Jul-91 Richard Johnson   PBEM Turn 10.10 << ================ PBEM Turn
2694  30-Jul-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au High Speed Projectiles << Hello again, Time t
2695  29-Jul-91 George William He High Speed Projectiles ... << I'd always assu
2696  30-Jul-91 Leonard Erickson  High speed projectiles << Tony Hayes: >I've b

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2693
Subject: PBEM Turn 10.10
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 91 20:40:59 PDT
From: Richard Johnson <richard@agora.rain.COM>



================       PBEM Turn 10.10          =========================
================ Break from Mid-Summer Monotony =========================

Historical Synopsis:

(This is **REALLY** condensed!  A much more complete summary 
 will be given in turn 11.0; coming sometime this September.  
 I sort of owe it to the new players.  RJ)

With the assassination of the Emperor barely two years old, the fringes
of known space are becoming prey to warlords, pirates, and opportunists.
On the Imperial frontier, in a nebula near where the Solomani sphere, 
Margaret's forces, and Lucan's receding empire meet, an intact ringworld
is discovered.  Turskaad Enterprises of the Spinward Marches is first
with the information, and funds an expedition to "R-alpha" for scientific
and commercial gain.  They hire a team of characters run by TML members
and imply there might be a way, through their efforts, to slow down the
enevitable show-down between Lucan and the Solomani.

The expedition leaves quickly and quietly in a jump tender virtually
incapable of self-defense, carrying two modified scouts and a far trader.
During the two-week voyage, the crew is decimated, first falling prey
to a sabateur with a sleeping agent, then to a malicious computer
program, and finally to suicide.

Meanwhile, an Aslan combat/exploration vessel has also just discovered
the ringworld and begun exploration of the surface when the Alcyon 
arrives.  There is clear evidence of widespread sapient life on the
ring itself, as a shuttlecraft is briefly visible to the Aslan.
When the Alcyon re-enters normal space, all aboard are psionically 
greeted.

But first we have to back up the clock about two hours, so we can see
what happens aboard the Alcyon as they discover Adrian...

- - --------------------------------------------------------------------
Tail of Turn 10.9

[in the crew's muster following the shoot-out at the O.K. engineering 
deck.  Count Ger is speaking.]

"Well, we'll be arriving shortly.  We have now completed the *easy* 
part of our mission.  I have it on good authority our sabteur has
met his maker."  He smiles wryly at Abuko.  

"Now, we are about to visit a single world with the same habitable 
surface area as all of the inhabited worlds in the Imperium put 
together." He pauses to let that sink in.  "There are fewer than
forty of us.  We have to find the history of a long-dead race, find 
an intelligent species, and prevent Imperial conflicts from destroying 
this gem of an artifact.

"We are much better prepared for this part of our mission than we were 
for sabotage, however.  Look around you.  We are scientists, we are 
engineers, we are scouts.  Only a few of us are trained killers."  He
slows down just a little.  "And all of us, _all_ .. _of_ .._us_, have
worked our whole lives for this moment.  For this opportunity.

"You have demonstrated a teamwork on board these last few weeks.  
You have demonstrated tenacity in adversity.  And you have demonstrated 
an ability to adapt.  All of these are needed and will serve us in good 
stead in our coming venture. 

"When MY grandchildren ask me what it was like, I will proudly tell them
how wonderful it was to serve with the greatest collection of explorers
ever assembled. 

"I salute each and every one of you.

...

After about three seconds, Ger stands, carefully replaces the chair and
steps pack up on the rise.

"We re-enter our universe shortly after evening mess.  Make sure your
gear is properly stowed, and everything is ready for the transition.
After we arrive, crew of first away team will be posted.

"Dismissed".

[Sorry about having to summarize the actual event, looks like it
 dissapeared at the end of May, when I trashed agora's OS...]

Evening mess find Bishop frenetically working with AGNIS on some
project, avoiding all social contact.  At an opportune moment he
slips away.  

A few minutes later, Doctor Vander Merwe rises with a start, punches
his communicator, and tears out of the mess area as though afire.
Very shortly thereafter, medical emergency claxons begin to wail and
Dulinor races through the passageways carrying an inert reporter to
sick bay, followed closely by the doctor.

Looking over the back of a hopping-mad vargr into stateroom 17
you can see strewn remains of personal and professional effects,
textiles in disarray, broken and misplaced artifacts; seeming signs
of a struggle.  'Vouf is muttering under his breath, and Lazer
is coming down the passageway, obviously intent on keeping people
out of the cabin.

The computer's voice fills the ship.  "All hands, All hands.  Transfer
to in-system ships."


- - --Paladin--
Without fanfare, Limner and Ghougzar board and seal the Paladin,
strap themselves in, and don their computer interface garb.

"Lucky stiffs.   Wish I were goin' with ya.  Ian."


- - --Talisman--
Redd's working at his console when the call comes to move to the
Korondor Talisman.  He looks up from his repair work, and starts to
finish what he was doing.  

"All go around here it seems.  Sorry to have to leave you all with
engineering in this state, but someone's got to get the Talisman
spaceworthy fast.  It's been really interesting working with you all,
let's just hope we get to meet up for the trip home." 

He punches up the stats for the Talisman on the computer, and after a
few low-voiced words with Ralf, leaves in a hurry for his cabin.  Minutes
later,  he can be seen arriving at the Korondor Talisman with a pile of
storage drawers thrown onto a trolley and covered with his vac suit - a
trail of lost socks and dented wall panels follows his hurried progress
through the ship.  

"Ahoy, Captain Jonson Sir - Permission to come aboard ? I'll drop off
my kit & start some pre-flights, with your permission.  Ralf's probably
going to want to handle the software side, and I'll take the hardware,
but if Leadfoot got here before us, we could have our work cut out.  If
it had just been taken 'alive' we might have found out the extent of
it's sabotage, but we'll just have to manage as best we can."

He pauses to retrieve his issue stun pistol from the floor and throw it back
on top of his neatly wrapped and folded Navy uniform - The Starburst medal
standing out amongst several others.

"I worked on a free trader like this for a while after I left the Navy, we
always had trouble making the payments."


Andon Shrike arrives just a couple of minutes later.
 
On arriving at the Condor, "THUL!!! Where do I dump this stuff?, Where's
the bridge? What are the ship stats? Am I supposed to be flying this thing?
What kind of wierd stuff you got wired into this thing? Just a bloody
pogging hour to get used to a new ship, what ..." mumble, mumble, "damn,...".
"Hope your insurance is paid up."


Ian, who can't tell when to shut up hollers back at Andon.  "Who's! flying
this thing? I thought Andon was a rookie pilot.  Where's that XO who
put ME, a bleeping blockade runner on CONTACT.   grrr I'm tempted to
to put cat-scented soap in his washroom.
 
"HEY! Anybody wanna fly this thing?"
 
At this, Ian will go muttering down the hal back toward the cargo area.
"Damn stoopid fools can't keep their folders straight.  I said I was a
pilot and a scientist.  So far I get marathon medkit duty and now CONTACT
whothehelltoldemIknewadamnthingaboutdolphinsanyway...."
 

Thul's voice coming from the bridge of the 'Talisman:

"Whoever is going to fly this damn thing better get up here...
This ex-Marine is about to open up the throttle on this thing
and find out if he can do it himself!"
	

Andon will drop his gear where it is, crews lounge, and head forward to the
bridge.  On arriving at the bridge, "Relax Thul, we got, uh..." looks at
chronometer, "a good seven minutes to go." Going over to pilot's station,
and sitting down.  "By the way, all my gear is just sitting in your crew's
lounge." Andon starts checking all indicators in order, fast, but
efficiently.  "Can we get somebody back there to batten it down?" Continuing
to work as he talks, "Any special access codes I need?" Andon brings up the
appropriate checklist and running through it calls out questions to the other
stations as he goes.  (Who else is here on the Talisman's bridge?) "Hey Ian,
get your butt up to the bridge I'm going to need your help to get us ready
on time." To Thul, "You know I never did say I was a good ships pilot, I
think the XO just liked how I did on the piloting test." Andon doesn't wait
for a reply but just keeps on working.

Andon notices a bottle of VERY ancient brandy sitting on the pilot 
console, and that the engines are just about ready for manuever.  
Thul wears a smug, self satisfied look on his face.  "You gotta be
a better pilot than me!  All I've done is read about it! " 



- - --Medical---
Outside Alcyon's sickbay, 'Vouf, Ger, and Jett are finishing a rousing,
heated argument about whether to attempt immediate revival of Bishop,
or to slot him indefinetely.  The door is open, and all four doctors,
yorblin, Vander Merwe, Limner, and Tabor get repeatedly dragged into 
the verbal conflict.

It's obvious the clock ticks on, both for the Alcyon and for Bishop.
Finally, with little fanfare and with full gravity the Count pulls 
rank, "Slot 'im -- NOW!", turns brusquely, and walks away.  "You
can discuss 'malpractice' and 'psi-reconstruction' later.  Get to 
your posts.

Yorblin looks up from the grav gurney where Bishop's inert form lies.
The holo display isn't pretty, massive areas of neuronal disruption.
Membrane degeneration has been stabilized.  A ventilator maintains
Bishop's respirations.  Bishop is ready for nanocyte infusion.  All
Jan has to do is program them for brainstem reconstruction, a half-hour
task at the most.

"Christian, this is ungodly damage, Bishop's psych profile must have
been skewed way past the Nornberg crux."

Jan turns as he hears an alert tone, only to realize it's coming from
the commdot on his neck.  Listening as he stares at Bishop's numbers,
his brow begins to furrow and he frowns slightly.

'Vouf enters the Sickbay and quietly watches Yorblin as he stabilizes the
journalist's condition. Silently, he picks up the datapad hanging at the
foot of the cryocapsule and reads it over. He waits until Yorblin steps 
away from the capsule to go get something, then steps over toward the 
viewport and looks down for a moment at the chill, composed face.
 
With a sudden, convulsive heave, he makes a noise somewhere between a cough
and a sneeze, then limps out of the room. When Yorlbin turns back to his 
work, he finds a glob of gooey spittle running down the viewport's side.

"Yorblin copies." He clicks his comm dot off.  "Who did that!?  Lucan -
clean that up!  

"Ger wants me on the command shuttle.  I'll get Bishop ready to go, but 
you'll have to finish him up.  Limner, you and Tabor can go; the slot's 
ready and Dr.  Vander Merwe is handling the infusion.  Thanks for your 
help, even if we do disagree.  It sure beats disagreeing with that twit 
lawyer.

"Security Watch Officer, Yorblin.  I'll be down in a bit to draw
my weapons and armor load.  Should be a gauss pistol plus six spare
clips and a CES."

With that Jan turns back to the computer interface to finish his work.



- - --State Room 17--
The once-neat stateroom is a shambles, empty syringe ampoules and tubing
on the floor, spilled contents of boxes and overturned furniture the evidence
of a struggle of some sort.  The door hisses open, and Bhyarrvouf enters,
gingerly favoring his game leg.  He looks around him silently for a moment,
then his eyes fall on the pile of holocrystals on the table and floor.  
 
His eyes narrow for a moment, and he picks up a crystal.  A twitch of an ear
drops the blood-red data monocular in front of his eye, and he picks up the
crystal between thumb and forefinger and holds it gently as if caressing it.
He frowns.  Tossing the crystal away, he picks up another, then another and
another, growing angrier by the minute.  By the time he reaches the end of the
pile, he is panting and his ears are curled back flat.  An armored fist 
clutches the last blank, reformated crystal in the pile, and it explodes into
a puff of fine shards.
 
A string of Vuekadh maledicta snarl from the maddened Vargr.  When he runs out
of swear words in his native tongue, he shifts to Galanglic.  "Miserable drug-
fogged useless limp-tailed baby-humping filthy rotten cowardly gutbucket of a
pus-awful scab-picking JOURRRRRRRRnalist!" A fist slams down on the table.  
"Every crystal erased! Every interview, every record lost! Irreplaceable 
minutiae gone for good, all because you were too scared of life without 
chemicals to keep going, and you wanted your piddling death to mean SOMETHING,
even if it was something AWFUL! You FILTH! You COWARD!" 
 
He turns to the door, eyes plotting.  "I'm gonna make you PAY for this, 
Bishop," he snarls.  "I poured out my GUTS to you, and you ERASED IT ALL! I'm 
gonna kill you.  I'm gonna cut your life support lines while Yorblin isn't
looking! I'm gonna sneak you out of your capsule and run you through the 
biomass processor and serve you to JETT! I'm gonna, I'm gonna--"
 
He stops.  A malicious grin spreads over his features.  "No, I'm not," he 
suddenly says mildly.  "I'm gonna let you LIVE, Bishop.  I'm gonna leave you
screaming inside that shredded skull, pleading for those bleeding-hearts in
Sickbay to pull the plug already.  I'm gonna let that lardbutt lawyer try to
talk the Psionics on this ship into stuffing third-hand memories back into
the holes you left in your mind and stitching it together with welding tape.
I'm gonna let them turn you into a MONSTER in the name of LIFE and LOVE! 
And on the off chance that you DO wake up and want your old job back...."
 
His grin turns ferocious, and he turns toward a corner of the room, where a
small metallic object rests inert against the wall.  He kneels before it,
wires and tiny manipulator arms extruding like weird growths from his 
gauntlets, and sets to work.


- - --Bridge/Command Shuttle--
Shortly before jump-exit Zben Blaine hears the good news about
being appointed to the Command Shuttle crew.  As soon as the
announcement ends he starts back toward his cabin, while calling up
the computer on his communicator.  "Computer.  Access Zben delta comma
one.  Copy, cross check, and download to Command Shuttle computer all 
programs contained in file code name MasterCommList and code name
ZbensOwn.  Verify."
   
Arriving at his cabin he hurriedly packs his carryall, including
his blowgun case, several well padded bottles of Darrian Brandy,
whatever clean jump suits he has, and puts on his own tailored vacsuit
and PLSS, again moving his bracelet to outside the suit.  No sense
taking chances...  Looking around, he feels a little strange about the
idea that he may be spending quite some time away from the Alcyon.  It
seems like its been home for Much longer than the time he's actually
been there.
   
Leaving the cabin, he stops by engineering and `requisitions' an
electronic repair kit, complete with tools, test equipment, and common
spare parts.  To this he adds a spare communicator, mulitplexer, and
comm-dot set.
   
Next stop is security, where he draws out his own AutoSnub
pistol, and ammo.  [If his blowgun and case are here, rather than his
cabin, he gets those also.]

   
Finally, with a half hour to spare [I hope!], Zben arrives at the
Command shuttle.  [to Etienne] "Zben Blaine reporting, Sir! I'll just
stow my pack and get right to it." Stuffing his equipment in the first
secure locker, he returns to the bridge and `sets up shop',
configuring the Comm panel to his standard and running quick
diagnostics on all Comm gear, inculding the programs he had Computer
download.  Satisfied that all is prepared as well as he can make it, he
greets each new arrival, and has them set up their communicator to
Channel C, for `Command Craft', i.e.  "Team #1".


 
Up the corridor to security Johann comes pushing a air-cushioned laboratory
table in front of him.  On the table stands a big white plastic box with 
wires and connectors protruding from the open top.
 
"Do you think you could lock this up in a sealed locker? It's the remains 
of the mekbot, but I don't have the time to finish examining it before we 
exit, and I don't think it should just lay around in engineering."
 
He collects his weapons and 'wheels' the table back towards engineering.

 

- - --Talisman--
When Ralf finally gets caught up to the rest of the crew, he packs 
everything into the midget gcarrier and pops over to the Talisman.  
Somebody better have 4 tons of space to put this thing in!


About fifteen minutes before the Alcyon is scheduled to exit jumpspace,
Nishu comes running down the long connecting passageway to the Korondor
Talisman.  Slung over his shoulder is a beat-up and rather overstuffed black
duffel bag, with a faded Five Sisters logo on its side.  The heavy bag 
doesn't seem to slow the breathless navigator down much, as he dodges anyone
who might still be loading supplies at the airlock with a quick apology.

Making his way to the bridge, he comes to a halt at the door and tosses
off a quick half-salute.  "CPO Neriika reporting for duty sorry took longer
to get everything packed than I thought it would where's my station?"
   
Once someone points out the navigator's chair to him (or he figures it
out himself), Nishu sets his duffel on the deck next to it and sits down.
A few quick taps at the holodynamic console configure it for normal-space
navigation; he runs through the list of system checks, one eye on the
chronometer window counting down to emergence.

When he finishes the checklist, he digs into his duffel for a few 
minutes and comes up with his small video camera, which he pans around the 
bridge of the free trader before sticking it (apparently with a magnet) to a
convenient surface.  Next to come out is his familiar still camera, which
goes around his neck on a cord.  Nishu grins as he snaps a few pictures of
the antics of Andon, Ian, Thul, et al.  

Nishu wears a windbreaker jacket, glossy forest green in color, over
his Turnskaad-issue vacc suit.  The gloves and helmet have been folded and
tucked into the pockets.  As noted, a small still camera hangs around his
neck.  As some of the crew will have seen at breakfast that morning, he's
shaved off his familiar beard (but not his mustache); when asked about it,
he simply says that "it was a look that didn't work for me." 


 
- - --Cabin 17--
The sobering silence is broken by the soft whirr of the door opening, 
revealing Richard Jett standing in the hallway.  He stands there for 
a minute, looking at the shambles inside the cabin with a vague sense 
of irritation and disgust.

Stepping inside, he carefully sifts through the debris and extracts 
any holo crystals he can find.  He ponders them, muttering some savage 
comments as to Bishop's character.  Firmly holding the case in one hand,
 he pivots on his heel and stalks off in the direction of Engineering.

A few minutes later, he walks into Engineering and heads in the direction
of Dr.  Abuko.  He proffers the crystal case to Dr.  Abuko, and says "Doctor,
this is Adrian Bishop's set of holocrystals; he erased them just prior to
his suicide attempt.  These contained a vast wealth of information about
the crew and the mission to date that is irreplaceable as a historical
record and for other reasons.  I would like to know if you could take these
and do your best to recover the information therein.  No special hurry,
but as soon as you can spare the time, the better.  Turnskaad would deeply
appreciate it."


- - --Sick Bay and Aurora--
Christian checks the the controls and readouts on Andon and on Bishop
one last time, making sure the autos can handle a long-term watch.  Then he
initiates the wath program, shuts off the lights and takes one step out 
of the door.  Pausing only briefly, he turns around.  "Computer - program
medical auto-alarm.  Ring my frequency; continuous watch."

"There," he says quietly.  "At least we won't be having ghosts running
around.  .  .  Ghosts.  Damn! Too many good men already." He shakes his
head sorrowfully and gravely and heads for Aurora.  

"Lucan, Dulinor! Button 'er up and get ready for acceleration.  Two
on board."

Several minutes later, Bhyarrvouf limps as quickly as he can down the 
corridor toward the Aurora.  Anyone left aboard the Alcyon sees a
familiar object about the size of a basketball, floating obediently
behind him as he enters....



- - --Bridge/Command Shuttle--
Etienne steps through the airlock into the Command Shuttle and turns
into the main passageway, heading toward the bridge.  Just outside the
bridge he stops just long enough to strap his carry-sack into one of
the lockers.  He is still carrying a weapon bag that is almost a meter
long.
 
He steps into the bridge and greets those who are already present, then
straps his gun case to the decking just under the pilot's cosole.
 
He settles into the acceleration couch and touches the auto-adjust controls.
Even before his seat is finished adjusting itself to his body, his hands
are reconfiguring the controls, running self-tests and beginning the preflight 
check list.
 
Just a few minutes before jump exit, Johann comes running towards the lock
of the command shuttle.  The first thing that strikes those waiting anxiously
in the shuttle as out of the ordinary is that he is wearing a civilian tailored
vacc suit, all the time up to now he's only worn civilian indoor clothes.
The second thing they notice is that he, likewise for the first time, is
actually wearing the stun-gun in it's holster attached to the utility belt on
the suit.  He is carrying a backpack and one rather big, yellow bags that seems 
to be made of the same almost non-destructible cloth the scouts make their
utility vests out of, and three green boxes marked 'Interstellarms'.  One is
about the size of a pre-stellar dictionary volume, the second, which hangs on
his back is a little over one meter long and the third, about one foot cube,
wears a big yellow and black triangle declaring that the contents are explosive.
 In addition to all this, he of course wears the 'normal loadout' of hand
computer, commdots etc.
 
"Sorry I'm late, I had to catch Bit again." he explains as he enters the 
shuttle and those nearest to the entry can see that the 'goldfish-bowl' style
helmet that hangs on the backpack is closed with a net and has a furry 
inhabitant.  "Is there any locker onboard for this?" Johann asks and indicates
the three green boxes.

After everything has been stowed, Johann assembles Bits airtight transparent
transport cage, places it on top of the sensor console and hooks it up to the
central oxygen supply.  "I'm sorry for this, Bit, But you are much safer in
there if we have to decompress the shuttle."
 
Etienne addresses those on the bridge, "All stations report.  Monsieur Blaine
please contact the other ships, including the fighter, and request their
status."

Almost at the preidicted moment, the jump warning sounds, and the lights 
dim.  Once again, everyone is subjected to that annoying, nauseating, 
tumbling, feeling, and the pale blue glow on all the outside monitors 
is replaced by starlight and sunlight.

 "Normal space, Sir.  Launch countdown activated." [10...9.....2...1]

A slight jar heralds the shuttle's departure from the Alcyon, as all of the
sensor displays activate.  Etienne's eyes linger on the spectacle of the 
ringworld for only a moment then return to his controls.
 
Looking out any viewport, you can see just how good a jump this was.
In an arc stretching from as far as you can see forward to as far as
you can see aft, and slightly below the Alcyon, is a wall of dark, gray,
metal, with sunlight shining off the edges.  Far forward you can see
a second arc and far aft is a third.  These two are tiny silvery bands
that begin well away from the vanishing points of the metal floor, and
extend around, behind, and above a shimmering greenish-yellow star.
These tiny bands almost connect above the star, giving the appearance
of a halo.  Keen eyes detect a very slight fuzziness at the edges of
the "floor" near you.

Inward from the first ring, a second becomes visible.  It is in a plane
with the first ring, but much smaller, and much darker.   

The inside of the ring is visible fore and aft of Alcyon as the wall
arcs away from you.  You can clearly see forests, seas, deserts, islands,
continets, and various signs of life - villages, smoke, roads.  Motion
detectors tell of flying creatures as well.

Everyone hears, from just over her or his left shoulder a quiet, soothing,
alien, voice.  In each person's native tounge comes the message:

"Welcome.  We have been expecting you.  An envoy will be up shortly
to show you where to dock.  The peace of the cosmos be with you."

None of the typical intercept or probing signals appear on the ship's
sensors.

Etienne doesn't bother looking up from his console as the disembodied voice 
echos in his head (in the ancient French language of his childhood), but he 
does mutter "No, it couldn't be a simple landing beacon, could it?"

Johann fires up every passive sensor there is.  "Vegetation, Life, 
Civilization signs ....  and a Second ring! I don't believe this! 
There is an inner ring inside R-alpha!, Noone is scanning us actively, 
by the way and no navigation beacons or anything like that." Johann 
turns towards the rest of the crew of the shuttle and says, when he sees 
that everyone is looking over their left shoulders.  

Johann gets a puzzled expression "What? What's the matter? What's 
happening?" he glances back at his console "The sensors has still not 
detected out of the ordinary....  Aside from R-alpha, that is..."



- - --Talisman--
As the Talisman emerges from jump space, Joachim stares at the screen
with strange, almost haunted, wistful look on his face.  

"So this is my new home...rather pretty...and big enough for anyone.
Wonder what the people are like? There's got to be some...

<<From just over Joachim's left shoulder comes a quiet, soothing,
alien, voice.
"Welcome.  We have been expecting you.  An envoy will be up shortly
to show you where to dock.  The peace of the cosmos be with you.">>

"Oh shit! Not more plague blighted telepaths! How much longer can I
hide this way!"

For an instant Joachim pales with panic; then another instant of rigid
self control; then a sort of resignation.

"Maybe, just maybe, they won't care about my past...they certainly
can't be connected to THEM...can they?...too late now anyway...I
daren't go back."

Suddenly Dr.  Tabor breaks into quite giggles.

"At least this may quiet down those ethical twits' arguments about how
to save that damned prying journalist...he certainly did himself good
though...almost a pity to see it undone.  Looks like my new career is
wrecked though, these folks are probably better doctors than any of us"



 
=================== Meanwhile, on R-alpha ============================

Admiral Akhouw and his hardy band of adventurers is watching a kythui
village.

A 50 kg omnivore/hunter, the typical Kyth stands about 1.2 m tall.
It is vaguely humanoid in appearance (bilaterally symmetric, 2 arms,
2 legs) and covered in short, dark green fur.  It has a short muzzle
full of sharp teeth, and small, pointed ears set high up on the head.
The eyes are round and staring, with a yellow or orange tint to them.
 
The kythui appear to have descended from a race native to the planet 
Rorise in the Mora subsector of the Spinward Marches.  Rorise is a 
very cold world and the Kythui are well adapted to cold conditions, 
but they are rugged and versatile enough to live in a wide range of 
environments.
 
Kythui are not particularly intelligent, but they do have a degree 
of low cunning which makes them dangerous.  They make a living from
hunting and trapping, and they are highly adept at laying ambushes.
Technology is really only at level 0, with favoured weapons being
spears and bows.  They are nomadic and usually live in tents made
of animal hide.
 
Kythui tend to be aggressive and belligerent by nature, and their
social hierarchy is determined to a large extent by who is the
strongest and meanest.  They admire a strong leader.  They seem to
enjoy bullying Chirpers (if they can catch them by surprise before
the Chirpers manage to pull their nifty vanishing act).
 
The Kythui are also highly superstitious, and there is often a
tribal shaman who is accorded great reverence.  

One common test of a Kyth's strength and prowess is to be able to
tame and ride a gara.  Garui are 400 kilos of pure nastiness:
muscular quadrupedal carnivore/killers with thick, wrinkled, hairless
black skin and long muzzles with teeth even bigger and sharper than
those of their little furry masters.  A favourite Kythui activity
is to fight inter-tribal battles between gara-mounted warriors.
 
The village the Aslan watch seems to be getting larger, as kythui
from neighboring territories arrive and set up camp around a 
great central clearing.  They seem to be preparing for a major
event of some kind.

 
The aslan choose to send a ship to a spillwall and back to scout, and
have a second group watch the kythui covertly.

Hryawi takes the "high guard" group and reports back that evening 
with some "hard" information (that the Alcyon will quickly be 
privy to as well). The ring is 3000 km wide. [I don't know why I 
made it so skinny, but it's in turn 0 if ya wanna look it up :=(.]  
The spillwall is 100 km tall, and about 60 km wide at the base, 
forming a moutain range.

The ring does *NOT* spin at 1200 km/s.  It spins at about 250 km/s --
enough to stabilize it, but only enough for about 1/6 g 'native'.  The
remainder of gravity appears to come from a comprehensive system of
advanced grav plates.  (Note: at this distance, solar orbital V is 
about 30 km/s.)

Despite the advanced age, there appears to be no obvious signs of
previous habitation by the pernicious TL6-TL9 world-trashers in 
this area.  Currently, there are tens of thousands of Kythui clans
in the area, on their way to this gathering.

Chirpers, as expected, abound.  Usually they make great prey for
the Kythui's beasts.

Atop the spillwall, at regular intervals are devices that appear to
be airlocks of some kind.  Some are easily large enough to house
good-sized ships, but all attempts to open them have been fruitless.

The "outside" of the ring seems to be remarkably pock-mark free.  
Attaching things to it physically (rather than magnetically) cause
expulsion of the probe and a seal of the breach.  It seems to be 
a material uniform in strength and consistency and color.

After a full day of intelligence gathering, Hryawi and his clan
return.  The following morning, Akhouw orders a contact team.  "It's
time, people.  One to stand on the rise at lightfall (there is no
real "dawn" here, the sun always directly overhead), the rest to cover.
Who will volunteer to stand?"

A chorus of voices returns the request (naturally).  The honor falls
on a young seargant, fresh from the tank corps.


- - --Phins--
Doejin leaves the interminable conference on "visitors" and heads
for his tender.  "Anyone coming with me?  I'll emmissary out to the 
small ships.  Ian's back.  Don't you guys wanna say 'hi'?"  Ferdy
is right behind Doejin, and Katie simply WILL NOT be left out!

Porting to the lock and getting into the tender, he worries.  "C'mon
Hoop.  give me some clues here.  I've never done this before.  Whadda
do I do?  WhadoIsay?  Will they like me?  Will they remember?"

Sending messages of greeting, Doejin scans for weapons and activity
modes.   I will send voice messages in response to any communications 
query.  


- - --Deep in the bowels of R-alpha--
Iasic notices a new kind of surface activity, and begins to reprogram
himself onto an outer portal.


================== Back in Space ==================

Aboard the Alcyon, systems go into standby as a skeleton, volunteer,
crew prepare for a long, perhaps permanent, wait.  The small ships
quickly accelerate away from Alcyon.  No one waves good-bye.  In
engineering, a melted, fused, lamp, won't get changed.

Sensors on all five pick ships up the signal as one:

"Welcome, welcome" in a slightly (about 20 years) out-of-date ganglic.
It comes from a moving source near the ring, and is accompanied by
an active EM scan.  Trained psi's also hear the message psionically
repeated.  "We welcome you, our visitors.  Come visit.  Come share
play."

Nishu spots it first.  "Small ship.  Shuttle or Pinnace.  Hydrogen
drive with reaction boost.  Coming in our general direction.  No
weapons systems readouts.  Too far away still to count life forms.

At that moment, the ship furthest out is the first to hear:

"Mayday, Mayday, Mayday this is Scout six eight Alpha Charlie ISS
Bernoulli.  We have one Ael Yael aboard, one dead, explosion aboard.  Jump
Drive out.  Maneuver drive damaged.  We have life support, and fuel for
five zero four hours.  Request assistance.  We have wounded aboard.
Transponder set for double seven double zero.  This is the ISS Bernoulli
broadcasting on one two one point five."

The message is in a loop broadcast by the ships computer with updated fuel
readings.  There's not much fuel aboard.  Sensors indicate a jump transition
has just occurred about 25 light-minutes away, and the ship is now somewhat 
outbound, well off the ecliptic, retrograde.


{Now, see the PBEM admin turn...}
- - -- 
Lucan is a Pansy!                                     Richard Johnson
The TML is a joke.                             richard@agora.rain.com


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2694
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1991 01:23 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: High Speed Projectiles

Hello again,

Time to go over the 1/10C projectile again...

Scout Ship has accel of 2 G's.  As such it will reach 1/10 speed of light
in (oops don't have my calculator...)  approx 5 days (?)  at which point
you toss your one cubic centimeter lead pellets out the airlock.

No big deal.

No Big mass driver

No Particle accelerator

If you use a 1 G Free trader multiply the time reqired by 2.  A damn cheap
doomsday weapon if you ask me.

And for those of you who say an atmostphere will protect you...
Remember that pellet still has the same energy.  It just gets transferred
to the atmosphere.  ie an atmospheric release of energy instead of on
impact.  If you use say a Cubic meter of lead, it will release
energy in the range of Gigatons of TNT.  YES GIGAtons.

That is a very lot of energy.  one billion tons of TNT.

No atmosphere will protect you.  Kilometers of overhead rock won't either
You are Dead  DEAD Dead dead Dead Dead dead deaD.

As far as I know, there is no navigational deflector (ala star trek) in
Trav, and as I said before, it would have 16 seconds to pick up the target
and act on it before the object streaked from Far Orbit range to impact.

No Defence.  Well, you might try shifting your orbit randomly if you are
a ship or a space station (I'm sure they do to prevent this)  But a
ground target is dead.  On the other hand, If you got a stooge in the
control tower, they could order an orbiting craft into the correct orbit
in order to destroy it.  But I'll leave that to you intelligence types.

Sorry for the rambling, it's 1:23 am here...

Good night,

Scott Kellogg
Physicist at Large

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2695
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 91 23:47:21 -0700
From: George William Herbert <gwh@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: High Speed Projectiles ...


	I'd always assumed that the reason weapons like that weren't used
by anyone, ever, was that they were 'unthinkable'.  If you've read the series
of Foundation books by Asimov, you may recall mention of the fact that nobody
ever considers using nuclear or like weapons against planets... the one 
admiral ever to propose it was lynched by his own fleet.
	It's a massive balance of terror.  It's such an obvious threat,
like nukes and bio warfare, that you probably would see enemies band together
to stop such assaults.  Permanently, if need be.
	I would assume that weapons like biiiig mass drivers that give a 
projectile enough energy to be nuclear-class fit under the Imperial 
Weapons of Mass Destruction laws, too...  [see Imperial High Justice Crimes,
spec. _Manufacture of Prohibited Weapons_ (HAF-M Universal Legal Profile),
_Posession " " "_ (HAD-M), _Use " " "_ (HAF-MV), and probably a charge
of _Waging Illegal War_ for the hell of it (HAF-MV).  Challenge 50, pp 22-26,
and appropriate Imperial Code sections (go buy it now if you didn't already
8-) ]

- - -george

(ps- is anyone interested in the Imperial Ministry of Justice?  feeler for
potential followup article...)


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2696
Date: 30 Jul 91 10:09:37 EDT
From: Leonard Erickson <70465.203@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: High speed projectiles

Tony Hayes:

>I've been reading the posts on hurling various things at other things
>as an attack, interesting but problematic.  There seem to be two
>classes of objects to be thrown, kg sized at moderate velocities (10's
>of km/sec) and gm sized at fractional light velocities (10,000's of
>km/sec).  There would then be two classes of targets, ships and
>planets (space stations are so small compared to planets that they
>will be treated as ships). 

Actually, there are *four* classes:
1. Large & slow (asteroid?)
	mass: million of tons and up
	speed: 1-50 km/sec
	delivery system: requires installing ship class drives on a
		suitable "rock" and using *lots* of fuel
	detection: easily detected by a medium tech level civilization
		(but *we* would be in trouble!)
	defense: difficult to destroy, you tend to get a *nasty* meteor
		shower. Deflection is easier *if* time permits.
		Atmosphere is not a defense!
 
2. medium and fast (ship?)
	mass: hundreds of tons
	speed: 50-500 km/sec
	delivery system: Requires an expendable ship, and a lot of
		fuel. Maybe drop tanks and an AI?
	detection: normal
	defense: somewhat more difficult than against a normal ship

3. small and fast
	mass: tens of kg
	speed: 10-100 kn/sec
	delivery system: Requires a mass driver we could build *now*.
		And which would fit in a medium size ship
		(disassembled). You set it up on a convenient asteriod
		or build extra bracing and attach it to a comet
		nucleues (free fuel!)
	detection: *very* difficult. An 8 kg steel projectile occupies
		approximately one liter. that's a ridiculously small
		cross section for most detector systems. And this thing
		will be at ambient temperature, and could easily have
		an anti-radar coating.
	defense: unlikely. This will hit as hard as a large missile.
		And the odds of a *natural* impact in this range is so
		rare that non-military vessels and installations won't
		be armored against it.  (note that in the (low* end of
		this speed range a *paint flake* blasted a 1-cm pit
		into a shuttle window). Planetary atmosphere should be
		a decent defense, but not guaranteed. (They'd be like
		an artillery barrage if they hit the ground intact,
		which *is* doable!)

4. very small and oh-my-god!
	mass: grams
	speed: 1000+ km/sec
	delivery system: requires one *hell* of a mass driver or
		railgun, but possibly doable even now. Maybe
		installable in a large ship.
	detection: impossible in any practical sense.
	defense: impossible in any practical sense. Atmosphere is a
		defense except for projectiles at a high fraction of
		c. They will not only cause blast effects, but massive
		radiation problems. (at above 1/10th c this is
		effectively one *big* cosmic ray, and will generate a
		shower of secondaries that will be lethal on the
		surface!)

Adrian Hurt:
>Just how much acceleration can a good mass-driver deliver?  If the
ship is
>on the order of 100's of metres long and the mass-driver is spinally
mounted
>(so it is as long as the ship), then the acceleration needed is on the
order
>of 10**11 m/s**2.

I don't have any figures handy. I *may* try bothering a casual
acquaintance at Lawrence Livermore Labs who has worked on railguns and
massdrivers. I've seen an (unused) test projectile. A 1 cm x 1 cm x
.4 cm  block of glass reinforced by some sort of fibers (boron?). They
don't use steel because it *flows* at these accelerations... (If I
remember something from an unrelated bit of trivia properly, this means
they must be doing better than 10^7 gs, as a 10^7 g centrifuge exists
and is built of steel...)

I *think* they were getting 10-100 kn/s out of something less than 10
meters long. And dangerous velocities out of a *one* meter unit.

Any materials sciense folks out there care to look up what pressure it
takes to make steel flow noticeably in *milliseconds*? 

The real trick is that a railgun *eats* power. All that kinetic energy
has to be fed into the gun as power. On the other hand, it's very
eficient at making the conversion. 



------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

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TML Bundles come from the archives of the Traveller Mailing List,
maintained by James Perkins, traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun Aug  4 21:00:09 PDT 1991
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #222: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
2697  31-Jul-91 John Lusk         Politics of foundations in 2300? << [Discussi
2698  31-Jul-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: High Speed Projectiles << > From: KELLOGG
2699  31-Jul-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: High Speed Projectiles << > From: Adrian 
2700  31-Jul-91 Adrian Hurt       Re: Very High Speed Projectiles << KELLOGG@du
2701  31-Jul-91 Adrian Hurt       Powered armour << I suggest those of you who 
2702  31-Jul-91 Leonard Erickson  High speed projectiles << In TML message (269
2703  31-Jul-91 Ryan Campbell     World Builder's Handbook Software Availible v
2704  31-Jul-91 James T Perkins   TML FTP POLICY STATEMENT - Please Read << I'd
2705  31-Jul-91 wew@naucse.cse.na Re: TML FTP POLICY STATEMENT - Please Read <<
2706  01-Aug-91 George William He Where did I see that quote??? << In one of th
2707  01-Aug-91 "ERIC H NEILSEN"  2300 AD foundations << In reply to the messag
2708  01-Aug-91 William Henry Tim Re: (2702) High speed projectiles << Some int
2709  01-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Yet more High Speed Projectiles << Houston, w
2710  02-Aug-91 Adrian Hurt       Re: High Speed Projectiles << KELLOGG@ducvax.
2711  02-Aug-91 Adrian Hurt       Re: Vulture type TugBots << KELLOGG@ducvax.au
2712  02-Aug-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Yet more High Speed Projectiles << > From
2713  02-Aug-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Where did I see that quote??? << > From: 
2714  02-Aug-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Arrghhh!!!! << That look on how many 3G accel
2715  02-Aug-91 Carl Fago         Re: (2709) Yet more High Speed Projectiles <<
2716  03-Aug-91 iczer-1!jedi@uune  << Hey, guys. It's nice to finally get back 
2717  03-Aug-91 Hans Visser       Mt Ranting << In (at least my version of the 
2718  04-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Re: Re: Vulture TugBots << Ok, So I didn't ha

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2697
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 05:19:15 -0400
From: John Lusk <lusk@cs.unc.edu>
Subject: Politics of foundations in 2300?

[Discussion regarding 2300 and other Traveller-related rulesets are
welcome on the TML -- James]

Greetings, Traveller mailing list!  I've been lurking here for quite a
while in anticipation of someday getting back into Traveller, and now
I am (as a ref, no less), and I have some questions to throw out for
discussion.

Foundations: just what are they?  The Adventurer's Guide states (or
implies) that nationalism declines significantly as a result of the
Twilight War and foundations arise as sources of group identity.  (For
the non-2300 people, a foundation, as far as I can tell, is a
semi-private organization, like a corporation or a union.)  That's
fine and dandy, but then, in the list of major wars fought over the
last 300 years, all belligerents are COUNTRIES, not a single
foundation.  So what gives?  If people come to think of themselves as
members of no one nation, they must be members of SOME group, namely,
foundations.

Agree so far?  To be pedantic, every individual must be a member of
some "tribe", for self-defense (or effective aggression, for that
matter) and for social care.  By "social care", I mean that
nonproductive members of society must still be taken care of, since a
certain fraction of any self-supporting society will be nonproductive.
Children, retirees, the ill, and the temporarily unemployed are
obvious examples.

So, to some extent, we've done away with the nation-state as the
provider of these services.  Meaning foundations must have the ability
to go head-to-head with national gov'ts in times of conflict, and must
have the economic resources to provide care for its nonproductive
members.  (Military ability can also be stated in terms of economics,
because weapons can almost always be bought SOMEWHERE.)  Where does
that economic ability come from?  Taxes.

So, what's necessary for a decent tax base?  Essentially, a GNP
(and/or citizens with a taxable income).  My economics is getting a
little shaky here.  So let's pick a foundation-like 20th-century
organization: IBM or Nippon Telephone & Telegraph.  These guys provide
day-care, pensions, education for employees.  In some cases, housing
(witness the "mill villages" of early 20th-century textile
corporations).  Health care.  Insurance (same thing).  Company stores.
All kinds of nifty things.  And what pays for all this is PROFITS.
(Or gross income.)  But the question in my mind is: can (semi-)private
organizations support the additional burden of a navy and troops?  The
chronically unemployed?  Drugs?  Permanently (semi-)disabled citizens
(mental retardation, cancer, what else)?  Any opinions on this?

Suppose the foundation is truly viable, providing some service to the
universe in general and using its income to care for its citizens.  Do
national governments still regard those people as citizens of that
government?  If so, they would still be subject to that gov't's taxes.
(No, I do NOT believe national governments will, out of the goodness
of their hearts, refrain from taxing those individuals who claim not
to be citizens.  The only reason national gov'ts today don't tax each
other's citizens is because everybody has got the military ability to
prevent that kind of behavior (or has the right allies).)

So, we have the slow growth of foundations as social/political bodies,
and the need for the foundations to tax their citizens (even
indirectly, as in profit-sharing (wherein costs of "government" are
deducted from profits BEFORE they are distributed to "employees"))
coming into conflict w/the national gov'ts taxing the same people.
(Go back over those parentheses; I know they're confusing.  :)  )

Agree so far?  If so, where are the dadgum
foundation-vs.-national-gov't wars?  Do I have to modify some of the
last 300 years' history?

John.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2698
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: High Speed Projectiles
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 14:38:18 MET DST

> From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
> Subject: (2694) High Speed Projectiles
> 
> Scout Ship has accel of 2 G's.  As such it will reach 1/10 speed of light
> in (oops don't have my calculator...)  approx 5 days (?)  at which point
> you toss your one cubic centimeter lead pellets out the airlock.
> 
> No big deal.

  The first question in this case is, when the map (MegaTraveller) and the 
terrain (physics) don't agree, do we follow the map or the terrain? Personally
I prefer the terrain.

  The trouble is that the scoutship is taking a shortcut through a big hole in
the rules, since the kinetic energy contained in the scoutship at 0.1c is about
1/14th of the *total* energy contained in the mass of the ship (!).
  To supply that amount of energy in five days the ships powerplant has to have
an effect of 2,812,500,000 MW which is a little large in a 1350m3 hull. With a
powerplant on 1000 MW it would take the ship 38,520 years to reach 0.1c and the
fuelvolume for that endurance is also a little large for a 1350m3 hull:)
  [I apologize to the physicists union for quacking on their turf:)]

- - -bertil-
- - -- 
"Med ett sjyst ja"rnro"r sla^r man va"rlden med ha"pnad!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2699
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: High Speed Projectiles
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 15:04:21 MET DST

> From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
> Subject: (2689) Re: High Speed Projectiles
 
> Just how much acceleration can a good mass-driver deliver?  If the ship is
> on the order of 100's of metres long and the mass-driver is spinally mounted
> (so it is as long as the ship), then the acceleration needed is on the order
> of 10**11 m/s**2.

  The maximum velocity of a projectile launched with a MD designed according to
the 3G system is about 129km/s, and the projectile in this case is a 2mm light-
weight sphere.
  The reason behind this that the mimimum diameter of the projectile increase
with increasing energy of the projectile, but the energy required for a certain
speed increase faster...

  I'll look at how speeds that can be reached if one stack several accelerators
after eachother and assume that the energy add is equal for each accelerator, 
but I'm lost without a spreadsheet right now:)

  As for what material to make the projectiles of, why not take some junk 
artifacts of monadium? If it is as indestructible as it is described to be, it
shouldn't suffer from ablation at high speeds.

- - -bertil-
- - --
"That's the best use of Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium that *I've* 
 ever seen!" - Me to a player who'd just used it to flatten a mosquito:)

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2700
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Very High Speed Projectiles
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 10:39:21 BST

KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
> Scout Ship has accel of 2 G's.  As such it will reach 1/10 speed of light
> in (oops don't have my calculator...)  approx 5 days (?)  at which point
> you toss your one cubic centimeter lead pellets out the airlock.

Speed of light = 3*10**8 m/s
2*G = 19.6 m/s**2 (near enough for this purpose, anyway)
Time to accelerate to 3*10**7 m/s = 18 days, neglecting the effects of
relativity.

> As far as I know, there is no navigational deflector (ala star trek) in
> Trav, and as I said before, it would have 16 seconds to pick up the target
> and act on it before the object streaked from Far Orbit range to impact.

In which case, what protects the ship, now travelling at 0.1c, from the first
dust particle it hits?

You're going to have to do all the accelerating blind, because you're out of
sensor range.  If you're in sensor range, someone on the planet has 18 days'
warning that you are accelerating yourself at him, and plenty of time to get
your ship with a meson gun or nuclear missile.  Or even a sandcaster, whose
particles you are going to collide with at something less than 0.1c, but still
fast enough to do interesting things to your ship.  So, you have to fire blind.
Your chances of hitting a ship this way are virtually nil; by the time you've
finished accelerating, the ship has probably done what it came to the planet
to do, and long since left.  Assuming you can find someone prepared to fly a
ship at 0.1c without navigational deflectors (hint - not any character I'm
running :-) you might be able to attack the planet, whose course is entirely
predictable.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2701
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Powered armour
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 14:00:58 BST

I suggest those of you who are interested in high TL military hardware
subscribe to the newsgroup sci.military, if you haven't done so already.
There's a discussion going on about powered armour - battledress to you.
Summary so far:

Pros:
	Gives protection against small-arms fire and shrapnel
	High-tech sensors make the soldier more aware of the surroundings
	Allows the soldier to carry heavier weapons

Cons:
	Very expensive to issue to general infantry
	Difficult to maintain
	Difficult to train the soldiers to use it properly, as well
	  as perform field-level maintenance on it
	New weapons will be developed to counter it
	May restrict the soldier's mobility

There are also various concepts of what powered armour would actually be,
varying from an armoured NBC suit with additional sensors (like MT Combat
Armour), to a one-man tank, to the huge monsters favoured by Japanese
cartoons.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2702
Date: 31 Jul 91 09:01:46 EDT
From: Leonard Erickson <70465.203@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: High speed projectiles

In TML message (2694) High Speed Projectiles, Scott Kellog writes:

>Time to go over the 1/10C projectile again...
>
>Scout Ship has accel of 2 G's.  As such it will reach 1/10 speed of
light
>in (oops don't have my calculator...)  approx 5 days (?)  at which
point
>you toss your one cubic centimeter lead pellets out the airlock.

...

>If you use a 1 G Free trader multiply the time reqired by 2.  A damn
cheap
>doomsday weapon if you ask me.

velocity = acceleration * time.

1 g = 9.8 m/s^2
c   = 3e8 m/s

thus at 1 g it takes a bit over 354 *days* to reach c (ignoring
relativistic effects). A good "rule of thumb" is that c is 1 g for 1
year. 

So 1/10th c takes 35 days at 1 g, 18 days at 2 g. This is noticeably
above the "one week at full thrust" "rule" I recall from original
Traveller. Also note that you will need *double* this, as you have to
slow down *sometime*! Doesn't MegaTrav have a "one month's fuel" figure
used in designs? Looks like you need *at least* a 3 g ship to do it.

Oh yes, at this speed your tau factor is .995 :-)

to reach 1/10th c
accel	time 		distance
1	35 days		4.6e10 km
2	18 days		2.3e10 km
3	12 days		1.5e10 km
4	 9 days		1.1e10 km
5	 7 days		9.2e09 km
6	 6 days 	7.7e09 km



------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2703
From: Ryan Campbell <viper@milton.u.washington.edu>
Subject: World Builder's Handbook Software Availible via FTP 
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 11:22:15 PDT



Version 1.1 of Jaymin's World Builder's Handbook Software is now available
through anonymous FTP at milton.u.washington.edu (128.95.136.1).  The file
is located in public/trav/libdist.zip.  It is a zip archive (not uuencoded,
not Z compressed) and you should use binary mode to transfer it.

Questions regarding retrieving this file can be directed to: 
viper@u.washington.edu .  Queries related to the program should go to 
jaymin@maths.tcd.ie .

If anyone has any other traveller related programs/data/character sheets/etc. 
that they would like to share with the anonymous FTP community, I would be
more than happy to put any reasonable amount on Milton.


                     -Ryan Campbell

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2704
Subject: TML FTP POLICY STATEMENT - Please Read
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 12:30:12 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.WR>


I'd like to thank people for all the sharing Traveller materials and
software via anonymous ftp.  I feel that sharing of this kind
contributes greatly to the value of the TML, and inspires interest and
comment from people who work with the materials.  However, a problem has
begun to develop.

My concern is that there are now over half a dozen ftp sites carrying
various and sundry items of interest to TMLers, three "official"
(documented) sites, and a few that have only been mentioned in TML
messages.  When a new TML member asks what materials are available and
how to get them, I email them a cross-reference document which I
maintain.  This document is getting larger and larger, with more and
more sites, and it is difficult to keep it always up-to-date.  As a
result, I'd like to suggest the following policy:

	Hereafter, sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca (129.100.100.12) should be
	considered the primary TML ftp site.  I'd like people who are
	post software, data, or other materials to share, to announce
	its availability on sunbane in preference to other sites, if at
	all possible.

The reason for this policy is because, while ftp is wonderful, it is
difficult for me and TML members to keep track of and remember (and
document) where all these valuable contributions are located.  If I can
keep them in as few places as possible, I can tell new TML members and
members asking questions, "Look on sunbane! Almost everything's there,
and here are the one or two exceptions." Keeping it in one archive site
also makes browsing easier.

I'd like to hear people's opinion on this policy, particularly those
known to be administering ftp sites for the TML: Dan Corrin, George
Herbert, Bill Wilson, and Ryan Cambell.

James
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Traveller Mailing List Administrator	     James T Perkins @ Tektronix, Inc
traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com	     Beaverton, Oregon, USA
uunet!metolius.wr.tek.com!traveller-request  "Load Auto/Evade, Beowulf!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2705
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 12:43:51 MST
From: wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson)
Subject: Re: TML FTP POLICY STATEMENT - Please Read

Wouldn't bother me, although for testing purposes I would like to only
maintain a copy of code on my machine until it is ready to go.  Instead 
of cross referencing where things are, you could have a list of general FTP
sites and just have people poke around.


- - -- 
Let sleeping dragons lie........                    | The RoleMancer 
- - --------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Wilson (wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu | ucc2wew@nauvm | wilson@nauvax)
Northern AZ Univ  Flagstaff, AZ 86011

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2706
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 91 02:14:27 -0700
From: George William Herbert <gwh@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Where did I see that quote???


	In one of the published GDW MegaTraveller materials (I don't know 
which one), I remember seeing a comment about Lucan commending an admiral who
destroyed a High Pop world rather than surrender it to Dulinor's forces.
	Does anyone else remember this?  I've checked my nearly-complete set
of rulebooks and Challenge's, and didn't find it.  If it actually existed,
can someone tell me where?

	Aahrgh.  8-)

- - -george william herbert
gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu
"Death wins Indy 500: 'I didn't know I could run that fast' "


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2707
Date: 1 Aug 91 10:07:00 EDT
From: "ERIC H NEILSEN" <neilsen@vax001.kenyon.edu>
Subject: 2300 AD foundations

 In reply to the message about foundations as sources of loyalty, and the
decline of nationalism, there are several solutions to the problem. The first 
is that the governments continue to provide the services such as care for the
elderly, and maintenance of the military, but that the citizenship doesn't take 
it quite as religeously. Many people have health insurance, but few can be said
to be loyal to ones insurance company in the same way that they are to their
country. Possibly the existence of space travel and colony worlds makes gaining
more population a great adventage to the governments, who then compete for
people in a capitalist like environment, getting along by means of a very
complex set of treaties. An interesting adventure might involve a character
trying to change citizenship.
 Another possibility, more interesting but less main stream, is that the
governments really are no longer supplying these services, and that some sort
of religeous organization (probably humanist in nature, if one is not to
upset the social character to radically) might be supporting the handicaped,
etc., through donations. Possibly such an organization has some sort of 
military might as well. Such an organization could be a very interesting
one adventure wise. A religeous army would probably have some sort of code
of honor. It will probably not have legal juristiction anywhere, and so may
be underground, and not recognized by the religeon "officially". Its 
relations to other religeons would be interesting, possibly enev involving
holy wars, etc. Note that by religeon I don't necessarily mean that they 
worship something (Taoists don't seem to), or believe in extra-scientific
powers (and in a 2300 like setting, nobody could actually have such powers 
(though they could believe in them) without
drastically altering the character of the game.), but only they they have a
common moral code and a means of inspiring large numbers of people to follow
that code, usually through ritual. (Of course, bribary by powers or threat by 
"gods" are more common methods.)
 What sort of new religeon would develop in the next 300 years? Maybe something
based on the vary "new age" ideas of Geanism. Another possibility would be 
something which would claim to unify the different religeons. If one wanted
to have a "secret society" bent to their world, one could base an organization
off of the Free Masons (I don't know how factually accurate it is on "real"
free masons, but Robert A. Wilsons _Historical Illuminatus_ might be of use
here.), or a religeon along the lines of the "Speaker for the Dead"
group found in Orson Scott Cards  _Enders Game_ series. Possibly more than
one of these could come into existance, creating more interesting scenerios...


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2708
Date: Thu,  1 Aug 91 13:46:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Henry Timmins <wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: (2702) High speed projectiles

Some interesting, non-traveller foo-

If you have velocity dumpers or matter energy converters in your
(likely) nontraveller games, tau factor becomes VERY interesting...

In case you didn't know, tau is multiplied to time to get relativistic
time (though I seem to recall actual lags only occur during acceleration
or something... relativity is more complicated than it appears), mass
and length are multiplied by the inverse.

tau = sqrroot (1- velocity^2/c^2)

I find it very useful to use percent of light^2 instead of
velocity^2/c^2, since it's the same thing.

A fun little rule... tau factor of .5 (mass and length doubled, time
halved) corresponds to 86.6% light speed... so if you convert 1/2 of a
mass to energy and dump it in the other 1/2, that's it's speed.

(with energy equal to that 1/2 mass x c^2! Whee!)

- - -Me
[Pooh Bear incarnate.]

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2709
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1991 18:48 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Yet more High Speed Projectiles

Houston, we have a problem...

If 
Bertil is correct in his calculations (No I'm not going to double check)
It is impossible for the scout to reach .1c.  Insufficient total energy.

But, I might point out that in order for traveller engines to work, we must
accept the fact that
1	The scout ship has 2G capable engines.
2	The fuel volume is capable of lasting 30 days.

These are the underlying assumptions of all traveler designs.  The number of
Megawatts of power input is a guesswork based on metaphysics.  If your
argument is based on that fact then we are arguing about metaphysics.

My point is that starship engines are based upon the fact that they are
supposed to be capable of boosting a ship at accelerations from 1G to 6G
10 to 60 meters per second for a period of thirty days.

If you accept that fact, then .1c is in.

If you look at it from a total energy avaliable perspective, I would question
the basis of the equations you use for available energy.  If you base it upon
the megatraveller power plant output, then you are questioning the very basis
of the power plants.  But remember, the power plants were designed (by GDW)
to account for the performance of non existant forms of locomotion.

If as you suggest a ship has only 1/14th the required energy to reach .1c
then the ship should only be able to accelerate at 2/14 G's (1/7 G) and
so the scout chip can not perform as it is required to perform.

Some people say they miss High Guard.  I miss Book 2.  they didn't even try
to guess what a power plant could put out so conservation of energy wasn't
a factor.  (sigh)

Ah well, It seems to me it just comes down to what brand of metaphysics
you prefer.  How many ancients can dance on the head of a pin?

As to the point that the free traders and scouts are shy a few days of fuel:
Well, use your cargo bay to hold more.

As to the point of flying blind.  Of course you are!  But out of the eccliptic
you mightn't have too much trouble.  (Fred, you knew the job was dangerous
when you took it!)   You don't need to be in sensor range if your target is
in a fixed orbit or on the ground.  Just plug in that intercept course and
let her rip.

As to finding crews to do it...  Well, you might'nt volunteer, but I'll bet
anyone desparate enough to try this little trick could find some poor shmuck
desparate enough to try it.  Or, just put it on auto-pilot.  And if on
auto-pilot, and you got scout ships to spare, just send it in as the projectile.
The Japanese had quite a few people get in the cockpit of a Kamikazie (sp?)
That's just a recruiting problem anyway.

(I bet you could find some Vargr who'd do it...)
Fastest sentient alive... what a title...

So, whaddya say guys?

Mr. Scott
Silly physicist extraordinaire.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2710
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: High Speed Projectiles
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 91 10:02:55 BST

KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
> Some people say they miss High Guard.  I miss Book 2.  they didn't even try
> to guess what a power plant could put out so conservation of energy wasn't
> a factor.  (sigh)

Nor did High Guard, as far as I remember.  It gave the output of a power plant,
and the requiremts of various power-consuming systems, in terms of Energy
Points (which should tell you something about the physics knowledge of the
authors :-) .  It was Striker which dealt with MW, and as it gave MW-rated
equivalents of ship-borne weapons, one could convert Energy Points into MW.

> As to the point of flying blind.

Blind, as in you can't see the target.  Not blind, as in you can't see what's
in front of you.  (Avoiding what's in front of you when your speed is about
3*10**7 m/s and your acceleration is about 20 m/s**2 is a problem, though.)

>		      You don't need to be in sensor range if your target is
> in a fixed orbit or on the ground.  Just plug in that intercept course and
> let her rip.

Which was what I said.  If the target is something fixed, e.g. a planet, then
you might hit it.  If the target is capable of acceleration (e.g. a ship) then
it probably won't be there when you arrive, because it will have its own
reasons for leaving.  (_When_ you arrive?  More like _if_ you arrive!)

> The Japanese had quite a few people get in the cockpit of a Kamikazie (sp?)

But a Kamikaze had a chance of getting to the target, and it was there that
he intended to die.  Flying a spaceship at 0.1c, you won't hit the target.
You won't be hit by the target's defences.  You'll hit a few particles of dust
on the way, and turn into a few particles of dust yourself.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2711
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Vulture type TugBots
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 91 10:42:00 BST

KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
> Clearing up the debris of the Battle of Two Suns, a Vulture unit came across
> the main computer of the Allamu, a Kinunir class frontier cruiser.
> ...
> 	The Allamu then began taking control of the Vultures that were working
> the old battleground.  Using their Naval Architecture programming, it began
> rebuilding the cruiser from salvage in the battlefield including parts from
> the Ninkur Sagga, another Kinunir  class cruiser.  But the robots had a
> problem:

There wasn't much left of either ship.  From "Adventure 1: The Kinunir":

Allamu (BC-9516) was caught in the van at the Battle of Two Suns, 1084, and
withstood over four hours of steady attack before suffering screen failure.
Lost with all hands.

Ninkur Sagga (BC-9521) suffered either a spontaneous missile detonation or a
freak globe screen failure (accounts differ) while engaged on the port dorsal
flank at the Battle of Two Suns, 1084.  Lost with all hands.


It's worth noting that General Products, the producers of the Vulture, got the
contract for four Kinunir class cruisers.  One (Kinunir) disappeared without
trace in 1088, and hasn't been found since unless you've played Adventure 1 or
made up your own scenario.  One (Ninkur Sagga) was destroyed by malfunction,
as described above.  One (Gaesh) barely passed trials, and was gutted and
converted to a prison ship without drives or weapons.  One (Adda Dubsar) was
scrapped before it was even completed.  GP does not have a good record with the
Kinunir class!

Incidentally, can someone explain how two battle fleets came to meet midway
between two separate star systems (Yres and Menorb)?

>	Recently, the Allamu has been searching for the wreck of the Bard
> Enterprise an Azhanti High Lightning class cruiser lost during the Fourth
> Frontier War.

This must have come as a surprise to the Imperial Navy, who converted it to
a Frontier Cruiser by rearming it with a meson gun and altering some of the
secondary weaponry.  This conversion commenced in 1083, and was completed in
1085.  The conversion was delayed by the Fourth Frontier War, during which
conversion was suspended while the ship stood guard over the shipyard.  Bard
Enterprise was in service, in the Solomani Sphere, up to at least 1107 (the
date of the source of the above information, "Supplement 5 - Lightning Class
Cruisers", which came free with the board game "Azhanti High Lightning").
>From the same source, the following ships were lost during the Fourth Frontier
War:
Haunting Thunder
Threatening Vengeance
Bard Warlord

And the following were lost in operations postwar (1085-1105):
Loathesome Reverie
Luriani High Lightning
Echo Intruder
Guardian Rainbow
Infrequent Hazard
Arrival Scourge
Exhausted Venture
Cause Rampant

I couldn't find any information on the exact fates of any of the above ships,
with the exception of the Haunting Thunder.  That ship was engaged in commerce
raiding during the beginning of the Fourth Frontier War, and was caught at
Querion.  It was jumped by SDB's as it attempted to refuel at the secondary
gas giant, and just kept going into the gas giant.  One of the scenarios in
"Azhanti High Lightning" is based on this ship.  The other names are open for
speculation.

> 
> Scott Kellogg
> 
> 


- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2712
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Yet more High Speed Projectiles
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 91 16:57:29 MET DST

> From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
> Subject: (2709) Yet more High Speed Projectiles
> 
> Houston, we have a problem...

  Ok, I admit that using real physics on an SF RPG is a rather dirty trick:)

> If Bertil is correct in his calculations (No I'm not going to double check)

  I did one error, but it has only minor effect on the results.
 
> If you look at it from a total energy avaliable perspective, I would question
> the basis of the equations you use for available energy.  If you base it upon
> the megatraveller power plant output, then you are questioning the very basis
> of the power plants.  But remember, the power plants were designed (by GDW)
> to account for the performance of non existant forms of locomotion.

  A scoutship weighs about 1350 tons, Ignoring relativistic effects (which I
suspect are of marginal effect at 0.1c, and in any case they will just make it
*harder* to reach 0.1c), it's kinetic energy at 0.1c is mv^2/2:

  1.35e6 * 3e7^2 / 2 = 6.075e20 Joules.

  The total energy contained in the mass of the ship is mc^2:

  1.35e6 * 3e8^2 = 1.215e23 Joules.

  So the energy equals 1/200th of the ships total mass. (Not 1/14th as I said,
but that's what happens when I play physicist, stupid me <kick!> <ouch!> :)

  1/200th of the ships mass is 6.75 tons, ie about 100kl of hydrogen, but 
fusion gives far less energy than total mass->energy conversion so it is still
unlikely that the fuel will contain enough energy.

  (Yes, ok, the calculations contain errors, the relativistic effects for one
thing, and the ship will become lighter as it uses fuel, thereby requiring less
energy, but I think these effects are minor.)

> But, I might point out that in order for traveller engines to work, we must
> accept the fact that
> 1	The scout ship has 2G capable engines.
> 2	The fuel volume is capable of lasting 30 days.

  There is one way out of this dilemma, and that is to assume that the engines
are *not* reactionless but that they have exhaust and that exhaust has a certain
speed. Their acceleration will (If I understand it correctly) decrease as the
ship comes closer to that speed. 
  That way the ship will still mostly have a 2G acceleration in it's typical
envelope (planet to 100diameters, in-system transfers etc) but if someone 
tries to take it outside that envelope by for example going full tilt for 
more than a week, the acceleration will decrease.

  This will unfortunately mean that all calculations of acceleration, range and
time will become very complex....
 
> If as you suggest a ship has only 1/14th the required energy to reach .1c
> then the ship should only be able to accelerate at 2/14 G's (1/7 G) and
> so the scout chip can not perform as it is required to perform.

  Every time you double the speed, the energy required quadruples. So it is
quite possible to have a ship that can do 2G in a low speed interval but can't 
do more than 1/200th G in a higher speed interval.

> Ah well, It seems to me it just comes down to what brand of metaphysics
> you prefer.  How many ancients can dance on the head of a pin?

  That depends on if the pin is made of monadium, and on how many ancients
there are left that are able to dance, and on if the coyns say that dancing is
a good idea:)
 
> Mr. Scott
 
- - -bertil-
- - -- 
"Med ett sjyst ja"rnro"r sla^r man va"rlden med ha"pnad!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2713
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Where did I see that quote???
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 91 17:06:57 MET DST

> From: George William Herbert <gwh@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
> Subject: (2706) Where did I see that quote???
> 
> 	In one of the published GDW MegaTraveller materials (I don't know 
> which one), I remember seeing a comment about Lucan commending an admiral who
> destroyed a High Pop world rather than surrender it to Dulinor's forces.
> 	Does anyone else remember this?
  
  Yes, I remember reading or hearing (TML perhaps) about that incident. I think
it was someone that described Lucans intolerance to failures. An admiral had 
gotten the order not to retreat from any hi-pop worlds under any circumstances,
so when he(?) was forced to do that anyway he(?) made sure that it wasn't a 
hi-pop world any longer...

  I think that a big part of the impact of this story is that doing this to a
world is totally unthinkable, so the message Lucan sent was "I'd rather that 
you do the unthinkable than fail to obey my orders."

> - -george william herbert

- - -bertil-
- - -- 
"Med ett sjyst ja"rnro"r sla^r man va"rlden med ha"pnad!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2714
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Arrghhh!!!!
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 91 21:13:55 MET DST

  That look on how many 3G accelerators that can be stacked after each other
will have to wait. My mac just crapped up royally and refuse to awaken again:(

  I'm just glad that all my traveller stuff is on a stand-alone hard drive.

- - -bertil-
- - -- 
"Med ett sjyst ja"rnro"r sla^r man va"rlden med ha"pnad!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2715
Subject: Re: (2709) Yet more High Speed Projectiles
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 91 7:59:31 PDT
From: Carl Fago <carlf@agora.rain.COM>

> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1991 18:48 CDT
> From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
> Subject: (2709) Yet more High Speed Projectiles
> 
> If 
> Bertil is correct in his calculations (No I'm not going to double check)
> It is impossible for the scout to reach .1c.  Insufficient total energy.
> 
> But, I might point out that in order for traveller engines to work, we must
> accept the fact that
> 1	The scout ship has 2G capable engines.
> 2	The fuel volume is capable of lasting 30 days.
> 
> These are the underlying assumptions of all traveler designs.  The number of
> Megawatts of power input is a guesswork based on metaphysics.  If your
> argument is based on that fact then we are arguing about metaphysics.

Just for the record, the argument is between classical physics and the
modifications of relativity as identified by Einstein and Lorenz.  This is
not metaphysics (which deals with philosophy.)

> My point is that starship engines are based upon the fact that they are
> supposed to be capable of boosting a ship at accelerations from 1G to 6G
> 10 to 60 meters per second for a period of thirty days.
> 
> If you accept that fact, then .1c is in.
> 
> If you look at it from a total energy avaliable perspective, I would question
> the basis of the equations you use for available energy.  If you base it upon
> the megatraveller power plant output, then you are questioning the very basis
> of the power plants.  But remember, the power plants were designed (by GDW)
> to account for the performance of non existant forms of locomotion.
> 
> If as you suggest a ship has only 1/14th the required energy to reach .1c
> then the ship should only be able to accelerate at 2/14 G's (1/7 G) and
> so the scout chip can not perform as it is required to perform.

The real issue is one of game balance.  The game was designed to be able to
role play in the future.  The game was not intended to require the players
and referee to calculate the intricacies of relativistic flight.

The purpose behind the drives was not necessarily to develop large mass
driver weapons and planetary destruction.  They were made to move a
ship from point "A" to point "B" and have the crew do something interesting
at point "B" (other than die in a large ball of fire.)

If a player wanted to play with these types of speeds, I would make him do the
calcs and figure out the fuel requirements and drive requirements.  This type
of play being outside the bounds of the game design to begin with.

Also, just for the record, if the speeds are less than about .1c, the effects
of relativity can be neglected in general.  Mass increase is about half a
percent at this speed.

- - -- 
+---------------------------------------------+------------------------------+
| *-=Carl=-*  INTERNET - carlf@agora.rain.com | Time is nature's way to keep |
|             DELPHI - WULFGAR                | everything from happening    |
| Carl Fago   Portland, OR                    | all at once.    -anon.       |
+---------------------------------------------+------------------------------+


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2716
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 91 03:02:09 -0400
From: iczer-1!jedi@uunet.uu.net

Hey, guys.  It's nice to finally get back on the list.  You all probably
knew me as one of the following usernames:

	gds3939@ritvax.BITNET
	gds3939@ritvax.isc.rit.EDU
	gds3939@ultb.isc.rit.EDU

I was also known under the handle "Jedi Master".  Well, I'm still going
by that handle, but I have a new address.  It is:

	uunet!iczer-1!jedi

Hope everything has been going OK with everyone, and I'll see you around.
LaTeR.

Jedi Master

- - --
Mundane -                                    |   SCA -
Gary Schreiber      Handle: Jedi Master      |   Kelson Alaric
241 Oakdale Dr                               |   Barrony of Thescorre
Rochester, NY  14618                         |   Principality of Aethelmearc
EMAIL : uunet!iczer-1!jedi                   |   East Kingdom


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2717
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 91 21:40:44 -0700
From: Hans Visser <fusil@ms.washington.edu>
Subject: Mt Ranting

In (at least my version of the MT players's book) the cascade skill list,
rifleman includes auto rifle, but Combat Rifleman doesn't. It is in fact
very difficult to ever get Combat Rifleman, mysteriously mirroring the 
situation in the original rules (where PCs didn't get assault rifle, guass
rifle, or ACR -- even in the Army/Marines). This is, in my opinion, asinine.
Looking through the various books, I find all kinds of things that were
in the original rules, don't make sense anymore, but are still there. The
armor rules for animals (what?), mass-independent drives (okay, so I'll 
suffer), and my favorite, ship combat. Why couldn't ship combat be simply
an extension of basic combat? Why is that so horrible? The ship combat is
still an extension of the basic rules where bigger weapons increase to-hit
chance, but 10 lasers in a battery do the same damage as 1. When I got the
PHB (when it first came out), I thought `Thank God -- Real ship combat rules!'
when I read the PHB, but noooooo! On a poor, industrial world, on a good
task roll (Man, do I hate the `strangely named four-point modifier' system),
you can get cargo for free if TL is 10- and the starport is 8. Why get a 
disintegrator? Combat ranges! Ack!

OK, OK, sorry if I offended, but I always liked Traveller (2-D Universe and
all), and I was enthusiastic when MT was being first advertised, but I think
when I really get down to it, my opinion of it is roughly that of most people's
opinion of Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium. I have always considered
writing my own Traveller rules (with varying levels of success), but I think
that if I was going to play, I'd rather use the Basic/Striker rules. If only
someone would simply extrapolate those for starships, I think it'd be a far
superior system. Even Twilight2000-II is better (though the initiative rules
sucked big time). I guess I just wanted to vent my frustration somewhere.
Or more importantly, an I alone in this? I doubt I am, but I dunno...

	-H

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2718
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1991 15:24 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Vulture TugBots

Ok,

So I didn't have my copy of Supplement 5 with me.  Currently it is
exactly 1014 miles from where I am sitting.  I think the fact that I was
able to remember the name of a Lightning Class Cruiser is still pretty good...

On the other hand, I said that the Allamu was reconstructed from salvage...
I didn't say how big the pieces were now did I?  Besides, all you'd need is
a few intact chips from either ship for the TugBot to get infected with
the AI programming of the cruiser.  Bubble memory...  I seem to remember
a similar scenereo in Adventure 13:  Signal GK...

Now why is it I can remember junk like this and not important stuff!!

Scott

"The oddest role playing I ever did?  Well, that would have to be the time
a human player character wanted to buy lingire (sp?) for his Vargr girlfriend.
He wandered into Fredricks of Regina...  The salesgirls didn't understand
why he wanted to get to the Vargr section."
	"Not to mention the salesvargr modelling the stuff..."

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed Aug  7 21:00:10 PDT 1991
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #223: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
2719  04-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Re: Re: Re: Re: High Speed Projectiles << Boy
2720  04-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Re: Metaphysics << "How many ancients can dan
2721  05-Aug-91 grue@cs.uq.oz.au  Re: Mt Ranting << I'm sure I won't be alone i
2722  05-Aug-91 Rob Miracle       Re: (2717) Mt Ranting << In Message (2717) Ha
2723  01-Aug-91 kirsch@rhea.infor The LIBRARY Program to generate Systems << Gr
2724  05-Aug-91 William Henry Tim Re: High Speed Projectiles << Minor point: Re
2725  06-Aug-91 Adrian Hurt       Re: High Speed Projectiles << KELLOGG@ducvax.
2726  06-Aug-91 sage@caen.engin.u Sword Worlds, Darrians, etc... << I have a qu
2727  06-Aug-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Of Droynes and Coynes << > From: KELLOGG@ducv
2728  06-Aug-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re^inf: High Speed Projectiles << > From: KEL
2729  06-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Revised Agility Calculation Formula << Hello 
2730  06-Aug-91 gsw@whservd.att.C SAVING THE UNIVERSE << This is all regarding 
2731  07-Aug-91 Adrian Hurt       Re: Revised Agility Calculation Formula << KE

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2719
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1991 16:21 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: High Speed Projectiles

Boy, when I start something I really start something...

Ok, now I see where Bertil is coming from:  use a % of the ship's mass
in the equation E=Mc^2.

Right.  The ship has 1/200th the energy required to reach .1C.  I see your
point.  But your analysis of how an object accelerates is a bit off.
As the ship accelerates it burns off hydrogen:  This is negigible.
As the ship accelerates it encounters relativity:  This also is negligible
at .1C (@ .1C you only encounter a distortion of 0.5%)
	(@ .5C you only encounter a distortion of 13%)
So Basically we have an object under a constant acceleration 2G.
(Sorry guys but you can leave Einstein at home, this is strictly Newton's
turf.)
Now, Newton's second Law F=MA (no trouble here... mass stays approximately
constant, force stays constant, Acceleration should stay constant.)

after 18 days acceleration we hit .1C and see that KE=1/2*MV^2 and there you
are with the .1kton of TNT per gram kinetic energy figure I mentioned
that started this free for all.

Ooops!  Insufficent potential energy in the ship's fuel to reach that figure.
Well, If the ship has only 1/200 the energy then it can only reach 1/200
the kinetic energy of .1C.  Buy some quick envelope calculations, that
means that the ship can only accelerate at 2G's for 2.1213 days.  There is
no unknown deceleration force.  The ship doesn't run until it reaches
a certain speed and then have it's acceletation die off slowly,  It runs
until it's Kinetic energy equals it's potential energy and then
the engines thrust stops.  You are now going ballistic.

So, we come out with a new endurance for the scoutship:  2 days.
that is the point at which all it's potential energy will be used up.

If we accept that then scoutships will never get anywhere.

Ok, look.  We already know that traveller drives by definition (reactionless)
violate conservation of energy.  Any and all ships using what ever drive
you like (fusion flame, grav, thruster) that are designed in the trav
system will violate conservation of energy because they were written by
and designed by someone who never thought of this idea and never thought
anyone else ever would.  We have gone off the board.  Here there be Dragons.
But if we impose conservation of energy then all the trav engines will come
tumbling down like the house of cards they are.

You can't say "conservation of energy applies here, but not over there."
If conservation of energy holds at .1 C then it holds for lower speeds as
well.  so Dur=2.  In order for trav to work Dur should be more than that.

About flying blind... (ie insuffiecent time for collision avoidance @ .1C)
Well, as I said before... "Fred, you knew the job was dangerous when you
took it" - SuperChicken.  I think that while space is not exactly totally
clean, outside the eccliptic plane of the solar system you'd have a better
chance.  On the other hand.  Space is Big.  You can't believe just how
mindbogglingly big it really is.  You may think it's a long way down to...

Sorry.  (Too much Douglas Adams)

Well sure there's a chance you won't make it to the target.  But imagine the
thrill of hitting .1c and getting that tite "Fastest Being alive"
heck even postumously it sounds COOL!  Put that on your tombstone.
(oops nothing left to interr...)  I know a few Vargr who would try it...

And if you are really nervous, that's what auto pilots are for.  Dig?

By the way, this really is metaphysics aien't it?  After all here we are
arguing about when we can and can't violate conservation of energy.

I am reminded of a line I once read and hated...
Changing the laws of physics is one of my hobbies.

I still hate it.

Scott S. Kellogg

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2720
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1991 23:26 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Re:  Metaphysics

"How many ancients can dance on the head of a pin?"

Bertil writes:  "That depends on if the pin is made of monadium, and on how
many ancients there are left that are able to dance, and on if the coyns
say that dancing is a good idea."

WRONG!  The Droyne use coyns.  The ancients didn't use them.  They are a
recent development, handed out to the Droyne by Grandfather long after
the ancients died out.

And what makes you so sure the Droyne are the ancients?  Who says so?
GDW?  Yeah, they also printed Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium!

Scott

Actually, I think it was a BIG mistake to say that the Droyne are the
ancients.  The explanation took all the mystery out of it.  Now when
players come accross an ancient artifact, they just say "Oh it's some
old Droyne stuff."

The introduction of the Primordials is an interesting idea to try to regain
the mystery.  But they gave an expalanation already, so there's no
mystery.  Besides, who cares about a bunch of dead heads who died of
boredom anyway!!!!

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2721
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 91 15:43:56 EST
From: grue@cs.uq.oz.au
Subject: Re: Mt Ranting

I'm sure I won't be alone in responding to this message :-)

>In (at least my version of the MT players's book) the cascade skill list,
>rifleman includes auto rifle, but Combat Rifleman doesn't. It is in fact
>very difficult to ever get Combat Rifleman, mysteriously mirroring the 
>situation in the original rules (where PCs didn't get assault rifle, guass
>rifle, or ACR -- even in the Army/Marines). This is, in my opinion, asinine.

A while ago, I wrote a program to read the skill tables (in the format given
in the player's handbook) and produce some code that allowed skill lookups
including all of the "serves as" and "includes" stuff (while keeping the
skills separate of course).  I doing this I had to enter the skill table
and while doing so I made a few corrections --- the biggest of which was
to make combat rifleman include the rifleman skill.  There were some other
typing errors present and some skills that were referenced but not defined,
the usual stuff that escaped proof-reading.  I've included my table at the
end of this message, I hope it is of some use.  [ For the purist, the original
list was printed using Helvetica (italic?) at some unremember point size. ]
The programs are available if anybody really wants them, but the main parser
is written in Simula (which I doubt most people have).  The skill lookup
program is in C and should be portable.


>OK, OK, sorry if I offended, but I always liked Traveller (2-D Universe and
>all), and I was enthusiastic when MT was being first advertised, but I think
>when I really get down to it, my opinion of it is roughly that of most people's
>opinion of Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium. I have always considered
>writing my own Traveller rules (with varying levels of success), but I think
>that if I was going to play, I'd rather use the Basic/Striker rules. If only
>someone would simply extrapolate those for starships, I think it'd be a far
>superior system. Even Twilight2000-II is better (though the initiative rules
>sucked big time). I guess I just wanted to vent my frustration somewhere.
>Or more importantly, an I alone in this? I doubt I am, but I dunno...

You are not the only person dissatisfied with the current rules back last
December (November?  October?) several different groups were formed in
an attempt to reform the traveller rules without damaging the 'universe'
too much.  It sort of died a silent death, I know that some work is being
done (very intermitantly).  Maybe it is time for a re-creation of the TDR
working groups.  Given the way things seem to work they won't stay around
very long, but some more progress might be made.



						Pauli



Big list of skills follows.
- - --------------------------8<-----------------------------
Academic (Cascade)
 Admin
 History
 Linguistics
 Persuasion
 Science
 +1 Education
Admin
Advanced Combat Rifle (Weapon)
Aircraft (Cascade)
 Helicopter
 Jet-propelled Aircraft
 Lighter-than-air Craft
 Propeller-driven Aircraft
Animal Handling (Cascade)
 Guard/Hunting Beasts
 Equestrian
 Herding
Archaic Weapons (Cascade)
 Blowgun
 Bola
 Boomerang
 Bow
 Crossbow
 Early Firearms
 Sling
Artisan
Assault Rifle (Weapon)
ATV (Includes)
 Wheeled Vehicle
 Tracked Vehicle
Autocannon (Weapon)
Auto Rifle (Weapon)
Axe (Includes)
 Battle Axe
 Hand Axe
Battle Axe (Weapon)
Battle Dress (Includes)
 Vacc Suit
Bayonet (Weapon)
Biology (Serves as)
 Genetics-1
Blade (Weapon)
Blade Combat (Cascade)
 Axe
 Cudgel
 Foil
 Large Blade
 Polearm
 Small Blade
Blowgun (Weapon)
Body Pistol (Weapon)
Bola (Weapon)
Boomerang (Weapon)
Bow (Weapon)
Brawling
Bribery
Broadsword (Weapon)
Broker
Carbine (Weapon)
Carousing (Serves as)
 Steward-1
Chemistry
Combat Engineering
Combat Rifleman (Includes)
 Advanced Combat Rifle
 Assault Rifle
 Auto Rifle
 Carbine
 Gauss Rifle
 rifle
 Rifleman
 Shotgun
Communications
Computer (Serves as)
 Robot Ops-1
Crossbow (Weapon)
Cudgel (Weapon)
Cutlass (Weapon)
Dagger (Weapon)
Demolitions
Disguise
Early Firearms (Weapon)
Economic (Includes)
 Admin
 Broker
 Legal
 Trader
Electronics
Energy Weapons (Includes)
 Fusion Gun
 Plasma Gun
Engineering
Environ (Cascade)
 Animal Handling
 Archaic Weapons
 Hunting
 Recon
 Stealth
 Survival
Equestrian
Exploratory (Cascade)
 Pilot
 Sensor Ops
 Survey
 Survival
 Vacc Suit
 Vehicle
FA Gunnery (Cascade)
 High-energy Weapons
 Mass Drivers
 Meson Guns
 Mortars and Howitzers
Fleet Tactics
Foil (Weapon)
Forensic
Forgery
Forward Observer
Fusion Gun (Weapon)
Gambling
Gauss Rifle (Weapon)
Genetics
Grav Belt
Grav Vehicle (Serves as)
 Grav Belt-1
Gravitics
Grenade Launcher (Weapon)
Guard/Hunting Beasts
Gun Combat (Cascade)
 Energy Weapons
 Handgun
 Laser Weapons
 Neural Weapons
 Rifleman
 Submachinegun
Gunnery (Cascade)
 Screens
 Spinal Weapons
 Turret Weapons
Halberd (Weapon)
Hand Axe (Weapon)
Hand Combat (Cascade)
 Blade Combat
 Brawling
 +1 Endurance
 +1 Strength
Handgun (Includes)
 Body Pistol
 Pistol
 Revolver
 Snub Pistol
Heavy Weapons (Includes)
 Autocannon
 Grenade Launcher
 Light Assault Gun
 Machine Gun
 VRF Gauss Gun
Helicopter (Serves as)
 Lighter-than-air Craft-1
 Jet-propelled Aircraft-1
 Propeller-driven Aircraft-1
Herding
High-energy Weapons (Serves as)
 Mass Drivers-1
 Meson Guns-1
 Mortars and Howitzers-1
High-G Environ (Serves as)
 Laser Weapons0
 Laser Pistol0
 Laser Rifle0
 Energy Weapons0
 Fusion Gun0
 Plasma Gun0
History
Hovercraft (Serves as)
 Large Watercraft-1
 Small Watercraft-1
Hunting
Inborn (Cascade)
 Artisan
 Carousing
 Instruction
 Jack-of-alI-Trades
 Leader
Instruction
Interpersonal (Cascade)
 Admin
 Interview
 Liaison
 Linguistics
 Steward
Interrogation
Interview (Serves as)
 Interrogation-1
Intrusion
Jack-of-aII-trades
Jet-propelled Aircraft (Serves as)
 Helicopter-1
 Lighter-than-air Craft-1
 Propeller-driven Aircraft-1
Large Blade (Includes)
 Broadsword
 Cutlass
 Sword
Large Watercraft (Serves as)
 Hovercraft-1
 Small Watercraft-1
Laser Pistol (Weapon)
Laser Rifle (Weapon)
Laser Weapons (Includes)
 Laser Pistol
 Laser Rifle
Leader
Legal (Serves as)
 Admin-1
Liaison (Serves as)
 Admin-1
 Streetwise-1
Light Assault Gun (Weapon)
Lighter-than-air Craft (Serves as)
 Helicopter-1
 Jet-propelled Aircraft-1
 Propeller-driven Aircraft-1
Linguistics
Machine Gun (Weapon)
Mass Drivers (Serves as)
 High-energy Weapons-1
 Meson Guns-1
 Mortars and Howitzers-1
Mechanical
Medical
Mental (Cascade)
 +1 Intelligence
 +1 Education
Meson Guns (Serves as)
 High-energy Weapons-1
 Mass Drivers-1
 Mortars and Howitzers-1
Mortars and Howitzers (Serves as)
 High-energy Weapons-1
 Mass Drivers-1
 Meson Guns-1
Naval Architect
Navigation (Serves as)
 Sensor Ops-1
Neural Pistol (Weapon)
Neural Rifle (Weapon)
Neural Weapons (Includes)
 Neural Pistol
 Neural Rifle
Persuasion
Physical (Cascade)
 +1 Dexterity
 +1 Endurance
 +1 Strength
Physics
Pike (Weapon)
Pilot (Serves as)
 Ship's Boat-1
Pistol (Weapon)
Plasma Gun (Weapon)
Polearm (Includes)
 Bayonet
 Halberd
 Pike
 Spear
Propeller-driven Aircraft (Serves as)
 Helicopter-1
 Jet-propelled Aircraft-1
 Lighter-than-air Craft-1
Prospecting
Recon (Serves as)
 Sensor Ops1
Recruiting
Revolver (Weapon)
rifle (Weapon)
Rifleman (Includes)
 Auto Rifle
 Carbine
 Shotgun
 rifle
Robot Ops
Robotics (Serves as)
 Robot Ops
 Computer-1
Science (Cascade)
 Biology
 Chemistry
 Genetics
 Forensic
 Medical
 Physics
 Robotics
Sensor Ops
Screens
Ship Tactics
Ship's Boat
Shotgun (Weapon)
Sling (Weapon)
Small Blade (Includes)
 Blade
 Dagger
Small Watercraft (Serves as)
 Hovercraft-1
 Large Watercraft-1
Snub Pistol (Weapon)
Space (Cascade)
 Engineering
 Navigation
 Pilot
 Sensor Ops
 Ship's Boat
 Vacc Suit
Space Combat (Cascade)
 Gunnery
 Sensor Ops
 Ship Tactics
 Tactics
Space Tech (Cascade)
 Communications (Commo)
 Computer
 Engineering
 Gravitics
 Vacc Suit
Spear (Weapon)
Special Combat (Cascade)
 Battle Dress
 Combat Engineering
 Combat Rifleman
 Demolition
 FA Gunnery
 Forward Observer
 Grav Belt
 Heavy Weapons
 High-energy Weapons
 High-G Environ
 Stealth
 Zero-G Environ
Spinal Weapons
Stealth
Steward
Streetwise
Submachinegun (Weapon)
Survey (Serves as)
 Sensor Ops-1
Survival
Sword (Weapon)
Tactics (Serves as)
 Ship Tactics-1
Technical (Cascade)
 Communications (Commo)
 Computer
 Electronics
 Gravitics
 Robot Ops
 Sensor Ops
Trader
Tracked Vehicle (Serves as)
 Wheeled Vehicle-1
Turret Weapons
Vacc Suit
Vehicle (Cascade)
 Grav Vehicle
 Helicopter
 Hovercraft
 Jet-propelled Aircraft
 Large Water Craft
 Lighter-than-air Craft
 Propeller-driven Aircraft
 Ship's Boat
 Small Water Craft
 Tracked Vehicle
 Wheeled Vehicle
Vice (Cascade)
 Bribery
 Disguise
 Forgery
 Gambling
 Intrusion
 Streetwise
VRF Gauss Gun (Weapon)
Wheeled Vehicle (Serves as)
 Tracked Vehicle-1
Zero-G Environ
- - --------------------------8<-----------------------------


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2722
Date: Mon, 5 Aug 1991 08:18 EDT
From: Rob Miracle <RWMIRA01%ULKYVX.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: Re: (2717) Mt Ranting

In Message (2717) Hans Visser (<fusil@ms.washington.edu>) writes:

>In (at least my version of the MT players's book) the cascade skill list,
>rifleman includes auto rifle, but Combat Rifleman doesn't. It is in fact
>very difficult to ever get Combat Rifleman, mysteriously mirroring the
>situation in the original rules (where PCs didn't get assault rifle, guass
>rifle, or ACR -- even in the Army/Marines). This is, in my opinion, asinine.

Hans, you are intitled to your opinions (ain't America Great?)  And in the
context of your entire message, I am in agreement to an extent.  It is a
problem with all game systems that I have seen.  Things always contadict each
other.  I however would like to argue this one point (which I don't agree).

The Gun Combat skill cascades into Hand Gun, SMG, Rifle, Auto Rifle (I think).
These are weapon firing skills that anyone can pick up (even today).  Combat
Rifleman on the other hand is strictly a military taught skill.  It includes
how to shoot a weapon, but also a lot more -- such as Sniper, Marksmanship,
how and when to Rock & roll.  Picking out enemy targets amongst friendlies,
etc.  Combat Rifleman should not be included in the Marksmenship only Gun
Combat cascade.

As far as availalbilty goes, It is the default skill for Army and Marines in
the Basic CharGen and comes up frequently in the Mercenary Advanced CharGen.
Other than that it is another example of inconsistancy :-)

Also Assault Rifle, ACR, and Gauss Rifle are all "Rifle" skills.

Just MY opinion!   ;-)

Rob aka Anton Devious

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2723
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1991 14:08:34 EDT
From: kirsch@rhea.informatik.uni-bonn.de
Subject: The LIBRARY Program to generate Systems

Greetings to all list members,

At first a big thanks to Jo Jaquinta and (or ?) the Devnaree Collective.
I have downloaded your Liblist.zip from 128.95.136.1 today. At the first
view, I like it. But I have some questions on it (I do not owe the World
Builders Guide, so please no flames on this ;-) ).

1. Are the World Temperatures in Centigrade or Fahrenheit. I believe in
   Centigrade, but I would like to be sure.

2. I have created worldmaps for different planets, and I wonder, why most
   of the planets, I have choosen, turn out to be Ice-Cappped. Especially
   I have created the Solar-System with the Program (no flame please, I
   know the names and Datas are generated Randomly) and Terra is placed
   at the orbit of a Gasgiant. So its Ice-capped to. I haven't got any
   planet, which surface is not Ice-capped with at least 25% Ice. A little
   bit strange for me! Can someone please tell me, if this is a result of
   random, or a well known phenomenon.

3. I wonder, if your program reads the complete data of a avialable Sector
   list. As I mentioned before, I have tried Terra in Solomani-Rim. I used
   the Solomani-Sektor, downloaded from 129.100.100.12 (Sunbane). The 
   description of Terra in this file, includes the extended Data "414"
   for Population Factor, #belts and #gasgiants. The sun is correctly
   identified as G2 V by your program (by the way, G2 5 is not the correct
   style of writing, the Astronomy uses the roman numbers to distinguish
   the sequences in the Hertzsprung-Russel-Diagram). But the program 
   generates only 3 Gasgiants and no Belt.                        

4. I have entered Subsector names in the table. Then I got problems, to
   find the Subsectors on the correct place. The choose Subsector map turns
   from 4*4 to 3*6. What's that ? (I think I should ask, because your
   Subsektor Grid cuts names, why not your choose Subsektor menu ?)

Don't bother about my comments. Your program is very usefull and easy to
use. I will try to find out, how I can send you the $15. It's not easy to
send money from Germany to the USA (I have no credit card yet).

That's for today,
Juergen

- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Juergen Kirsch
Institut fuer Informatik, Universitaet Bonn
Germany
kirsch@rhea.informatik.uni-bonn.de

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2724
Date: Mon,  5 Aug 91 16:53:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Henry Timmins <wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: High Speed Projectiles

Minor point: Reactionless drives don't HAVE to violate physics.

In my games, there is 'accelerationless drive', which really isn't. It
accelerates all atoms at the same rate, however, so only the atoms
suffer any stress. (which limits the acceleration, but not by much)

For reactionless drive, something like setting up a standing gravity
wave... whatever. There's a difference between adding fantasy to
physics, and replacing physics with fantasy...

- - -Me
[Pooh Bear incarnate.]

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2725
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: High Speed Projectiles
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 10:08:35 BST

KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
> 
> About flying blind... (ie insuffiecent time for collision avoidance @ .1C)
> Well, as I said before... "Fred, you knew the job was dangerous when you
> took it" - SuperChicken.

Which is why I said I wouldn't take it.  :-)

> Well sure there's a chance you won't make it to the target.  But imagine the
> thrill of hitting .1c and getting that tite "Fastest Being alive"

There's little, if any, chance that you will make it to the target.  There
might be a chance of hitting .1c before you hit a dust particle.

> And if you are really nervous, that's what auto pilots are for.  Dig?

So now you intend to sacrifice (or at least, risk a very high probability of
sacrificing) a whole ship.  Even without worrying about a crew, that's a lot
more expensive than, say, a couple of nuclear missiles.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2726
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 11:21:06 -0400
From: sage@caen.engin.umich.edu (Gregory Scott Horlacher)
Subject: Sword Worlds, Darrians, etc...

I have a question for anyone who is familiar with the recent events in the
Spindward Marches:  

Can anyone fill me in or help me speculate on what has occurred in the 
Sword World Conferation, the Border Worlds, and/or the Darrian Confeferation
since the rebellion broke out in the Imperium? 

Thanks,
Greg Horlacher
[sage@caen.engin.umich.edu]

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2727
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Of Droynes and Coynes
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 17:46:52 MET DST

> From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
> Subject: (2720) Re: Metaphysics

  (There should probably be a ^L to protect the young and innocent from reading
   stuff about Ancients here.)
^L

> "How many ancients can dance on the head of a pin?"
> 
> Bertil writes:  "That depends on if the pin is made of monadium, and on how
> many ancients there are left that are able to dance, and on if the coyns
> say that dancing is a good idea."
> 
> WRONG!  The Droyne use coyns.  The ancients didn't use them.  They are a
> recent development, handed out to the Droyne by Grandfather long after
> the ancients died out.
 
  If I'm not totally mistaken, the Imperial Encyclopedia lists coyns as one type
of common artifacts in the entry on artifacts. I agree that it might seem hard 
to reconcile this with the "Coyns was introduced by Grandfather", and the fact
that some major races that hadn't appeared on the stellar stage appear on coyns.

  My suggestion for a solution of this is to assume that since Droyne lived on
worlds with ruins from the Ancients last war, some coyns might have happend to
end up in those ruins not long after the war, when Grandfather introduced them.

  Then we have the two-line comment in 'Secret of the Ancients' that Grandfather
had ventured forth several times after the end of the war and destroyed 
ancient worlds where the destruction was not yet complete. I used this for an
adventure where the engima was that the Final War still goes on...

> And what makes you so sure the Droyne are the ancients?  Who says so?
> GDW?  Yeah, they also printed Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium!

  I usually rate GDW products as being Pre- or Post-MegaTraveller:)
 
> Scott
> 
> Actually, I think it was a BIG mistake to say that the Droyne are the
> ancients.  The explanation took all the mystery out of it.  Now when
> players come accross an ancient artifact, they just say "Oh it's some
> old Droyne stuff."

  In my current campaign(s) I keep the question open. When one of the players
said something like "Well, I *know* that they were Droyne because 'Secret of
the Ancients' says so." I answered "If I could get away with the 6th Frontier
War (1114-1116) I'm sure I can get away with making the Ancients human or vargr
or whatever:)"

  As for Artifacts, They are still hideously expensive and hideously 
unpredictable. And what PC would say 'well, just some old Droyne stuff' when 
facing a Roth Thokken Vargr that's wearing two nano-tech level psionic
amplifyers that looks like two large diamonds in his empty eye-balls?

  (I refer to 'Vilani and Vargr' for all talk about Roth Thokken and empty
eye-balls:)

- - -bertil-
- - -- 
"Med en sjyst artefakt sla^r man imperiet med ha"pnad!":)

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2728
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re^inf: High Speed Projectiles
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 18:01:23 MET DST

> From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
> Subject: (2719) Re: Re: Re: Re: High Speed Projectiles
> 
> Boy, when I start something I really start something...
 
> Ok, look.  We already know that traveller drives by definition (reactionless)
> violate conservation of energy.  Any and all ships using what ever drive
> you like (fusion flame, grav, thruster) that are designed in the trav
> system will violate conservation of energy because they were written by
> and designed by someone who never thought of this idea and never thought
> anyone else ever would.  We have gone off the board.  Here there be Dragons.
                                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  
  Not merely Crested Jabberwocks? (Sorry, I couldn't resist it:)

> But if we impose conservation of energy then all the trav engines will come
> tumbling down like the house of cards they are.

> You can't say "conservation of energy applies here, but not over there."
> If conservation of energy holds at .1 C then it holds for lower speeds as
> well.  so Dur=2.  In order for trav to work Dur should be more than that.

  Well, I admit that half the reasoning behind my ardent push for fusion 
rockets only existed in my mind, but here it is:

  If we give the ships engines that require much larger amounts of energy, and
also give them plants that give much larger amounts of energy, we will start
getting scoutships all over relativity with the problems that cause. So the
solution would be something that would limit the maximum speed to manageable
levels and yet not inhibit acceleration.
  My proposed something is (non-reaction-less, isn't that a double negation?:)
reactive thrusters with a exhaust velocity of some nice figure, because that
velocity will (I think, what do any *real* physicists out there say) limit
the speed of the ships.

> Scott S. Kellogg

- - -bertil-

PS: "For any task, there exists a Vargr insane enough to try it, if it will mean
  increased charisma.", Proof of this is that there is a Vargr sociologist in
  on of my campaigns that is trying to write a thesis about the Roth Thokken:)
- - -- 
"Med ett sjyst ja"rnro"r sla^r man va"rlden med ha"pnad!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2729
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 1991 14:22 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Revised Agility Calculation Formula

Hello Folks,

Rob Dean and I have been discussing the rules concerning the
calculation of agility in MegaTraveller.  We thought after
coming to some conclusions we should open this up to the
TML list.  Thanks go to George William Herbert for his thoughts
on the subject of aircraft agility.  (Maybe this should have
3 authors on it)  Please note that the following will be the
basis of all My agility calculations in future designs posted
to the TML.

Opinions will be warmly welcome.
Thank you,

Scott Kellogg
- - -------------------------------------------------------------------
The following is a summary of a discussion between Scott S. Kellogg
and Robert S. Dean.

We have noticed that the agility calculations as presented in the
MegaTraveller Referee's Manual make little sense when compared
with the Starship Operator's Manual, High Guard, and for that matter,
the Referee's Manual.

Problem:  A ship has 2 G acceleration.  It has no additional power
for weapons, just power for engines, sensors, environment, computer
etc.  Excess power is zero.  Result:  Agility=0.  This is assuming,
of course, that the undefined term 'excess power' refers to power
which is not allocated to any other operation aboard the ship apart
from increasing agility.  Ok, now when the ship is in emergency status,
the ship suddenly goes to agility=2.
Question:  Where did this "extra" power come from?

You see the problem? Is this what excess power really means? Is this the
result intended by the rules?

Ok, High Guard functioned like this:  A ship with power plant-2 and
maneuver drive-2 automatically becomes agility=2.  In order to have
a functioning maneuver drive, you had to have a power plant factor
equal to the maneuver drive thus a ship with the above plants will
always be agility=2 when not powering lasers (energy wpns etc). A
hit to the power plant reduces the agility of the ship by that amount.

Now, when a High Guard ship attempts to escape, the ship relies on
agility to do so, not maneuver drive.  So a 3-G ship with agility=3
can escape from a 6-G ship with agility=1.

Rationalization:  The 6G ship's power plant is being drained away
from the maneuver drive and it is not putting out 6-G's, it is putting
out only 1G.

In view of the MegaTrav design rules this does not translate unless
we do the following:

	(Power required for maneuver drive + "excess" power)
Agility=--------------------------------------------------- * 5.4
			Unloaded Weight

Agility may not exceed maneuver drive rating.
(No more agility=6 1-G drive ships...)
If you read the section of the Ref's Handbook, the rule there is a
little unclear.  I therefore think that the above clarification
(adding the power required by the drive to the equation as stated)
does make sense.

Note that if a ship is powering weapons the "excess" power can be negative
thus subtracting from the ship's ability to maneuver.  This is what Rob
refers to as "Double Dipping".

Please note that the above equation closely resembles Rob Dean's Thrust
based maneuver drive equations.

His opinion is that we should use the loaded weight for the above
calculations and I concur.  How often are ships flying around with
no fuel and no cargo?  He also suggests that the 5.4 in the above
be 10 as would occur in his thrust based maneuver drive calculations
(for grav based not thruster based vehicles).  That is, in a small
vehicle using standard grav propulsion, such as a 10 ton fighter, the
acceleration is the thrust divided by the loaded weight, and the
thrust is conveniently equivalent to the power input to the grav
units in MW multiplied by 10.

Thus Rob's equation:

	(Power req for maneuver drive + "excess" power)
Agility=----------------------------------------------- * 10
			Loaded Weight

The above should be multiplied by 13/14 if using thruster plates as
opposed to grav plates. This will not only give you the agility, but
the true acceleration of the ship as given by the thrust based
maneuver arguments.

Note that when a ship is dipping into it's maneuver power it's
maneuver drive performance will be affected in the following manner:

		(Power req for maneuver drive + "excess"pwr)
Combat Maneuver=--------------------------------------------* rated maneuver
			(Pwr req for manuever drive)

Note:  If "excess" power is positive, combat maneuver is not to exceed
rated manuever by more than 400% for more than 5 minutes without risk
of damage.  40% is acceptable for longer periods (days) if there is
suffient engineering skill among the engine crew.  These acceptable
overload factors are taken from the DGP Starship Operator's Manual.

Translation:  Algebra into English:
When a ship does not have power for all its weapons, it may divert
power from the maneuver drive.  Diverting power will reduce the
output of the drive.  It is possible to overload the engines, but
that may result in damaging them.  The time allowed for overloading
them for large increases in performance is considerably less one
starship combat round.

Robert S. Dean and Scott S. Kellogg
- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------
On a different note:

Aircraft Agility
In my opinion, aircraft agilities are far too low.

Consider:	A disp=40 6-G grav fighter: Agility=6, vs.
		F-14 Tomcat: Agility=6

In a turn, A Tomcat uses its wings and lifting surfaces to pull
a high G turn at approximately 9 G's

The Grav fighter (assuming it has wings) has 1/3 the wing area of a
jet fighter and is many many many times it's weight.  (In 101 vehicles
there is a Zho grav sled that weighs close to 180 tons, a displacement
of 2, and wings? It weighs close to what a B-52 does and is smaller
than a Cessna and they expect to get lift?)  It can get little if any
lift and must rely on it's grav units to turn it.  These as we said
before are only 6G's.

Result:  In a fast turning Dogfight the Tomcat can run rings around
the Grav fighter.  Of course the Tomcat has no inertial comps and so
the pilot takes a beating on the inside, but he will always be able
to get the advantage of the grav fighter.

Personal experience:
A Cessna 152 light utility trainer has a 110 horsepower Lycoming
engine, but it is rated for 4.4G's  No air/raft will be able to keep
up with it in a turn.  If you look at many of the designs in 101
vehicles, the Cessna might not be able to out run them, but it can
Really out turn them.  There are 5 designs in there that can out turn
the Cessna.  Two are civilian with +5 G MaxAcceleration, and there
are 3 military.  All are TL 13 or higher.

Conclusion:  I believe that aircraft agility should not be limited to 6,
but 9 (the physical limit of a pilot).  At TL 10, when inertial
compensators are used the agility could go even higher.

(This is assuming there is a pilot on board, George Herbert informs me
there are pilotless drones now flying around capable of making 15 G
turns)

Scott Kellogg

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2730
From: gsw@whservd.att.COM
Date: Tue, 6 Aug 91 16:29 EDT
Subject: SAVING THE UNIVERSE

This is all regarding the problem of using Traveller Maneuver Drives
as super mass drivers:

- - -----

By the way, I once did the calculations about how much energy it would
take to bring an object to 0.1 c and back.  I don't have the figures
handy, but I seem to remember that

o using completely efficient fusion drives, it would take 50% of the
  ship's mass to accelerate to 0.1 c, then another 50% to slow to a
  stop.  Thus, 75% of the ship's mass would have to be fuel in order to
  allow a ship to even travel at that speed, and that leaves no room
  for error.

o using completely efficient matter-to-energy conversion, the figure
  drops to something like 4% of the ships mass.

This is all irrelevant, however, since we have already agreed that
maneuver drives violate physics (disclaimer: as we currently understand
physics, that is).

- - -----

Let's get to the root of the problem, though:

o it takes a GREAT DEAL of energy to bring a ship up to those speeds.

o a heavy body traveling at these speeds would likely be able to
  seriously affect any planet it crashed into (perhaps even decimating
  the population).

o Traveller assumes that ships are routinely capable of accelerating to
  these speeds.

- - -----

Anyway, as long as we're redefining physics somewhat, why not keep
things simple?  In that light, here is my suggestion:

o Maneuver Drives do NOT generate enough energy to decimate a planet.

o Instead, they somehow reduce the ship's effective mass while
  propelling it through space.

o Now, if a ship moving quickly with its Maneuver Drive crashes into a
  planet, it will do so with a very small effective mass (possibly in
  the micrograms if the ship were moving REALLY fast).

o Now for the question, what happens if you accelerate to 0.1 c and
  then turn off the drives?  The choices I see:

    o The ship's mass immediately returns to normal, causing it to
      decelerate immediately down to a speed corresponding to its
      kinetic energy level.

  or:

    o The ship's mass slowly increases, causing the ship to drift back
      to a speed corresponding to its kinetic energy level.

  or:

    o The ship's mass stays at its current level until the ship is
      influenced by some other force (such as hitting another object).
      In this case, I would also suggest that gravity wells would tend
      to bring its mass back to normal.

  The option you choose depends on how you want ship movement to work.

o This creates all kinds of interesting speculation:
  o Ships under Maneuver Drive would be less affected by gravity.
  o Maneuver Drives really would be different from grav units.
  o Accelleration might have a better effect on turning the ship.
  o Maneuver Drives could also have limits to their "top speeds."
  o Ships moving under Maneuver Drive might always use energy.
  o There may be a justification for the 6G limit.
  o There may also be a justification for a volume-based system.
  o Maneuver drives might also require a small additional drive, but
    this is not necessary.
  o There might also be hybrid systems and/or reasons to NOT use a
    normal Maneuver Drive for certain circumstances.

- - -----

I thought of this at lunch today.  It seemed so simple that I could
kick myself for not thinking of it earlier.

So, what do you think?

- - -----

Jerry Williams
gsw@gummo.att.com

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2731
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Revised Agility Calculation Formula
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 91 10:40:45 BST

KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
> We have noticed that the agility calculations as presented in the
> MegaTraveller Referee's Manual make little sense when compared
> with the Starship Operator's Manual, High Guard, and for that matter,
> the Referee's Manual.

What a surprise.  Something else in the MT Manuals which doesn't make sense.
:-)

> Problem:  A ship has 2 G acceleration.  It has no additional power
> for weapons, just power for engines, sensors, environment, computer
> etc.  Excess power is zero.  Result:  Agility=0.  This is assuming,
> of course, that the undefined term 'excess power' refers to power
> which is not allocated to any other operation aboard the ship apart
> from increasing agility.  Ok, now when the ship is in emergency status,
> the ship suddenly goes to agility=2.
> Question:  Where did this "extra" power come from?

>From what I remember of High Guard, the calculation was made in a different
order.  Let's assume this is a 1000 ton ship, with USP power rating 2.  Its
power plant produces 0.01 * displacement * power plant rating = 20 Energy
Points.  From this, deduct the power used by ship's systems (weapons, computer
and screens).  The Energy Points left over go to the manoeuvre drives to supply
the ship's Agility as follows:
Agility = Remaining Energy Points / (Displacement * 0.01).

So, if the ship uses 20 EP on its systems, its agility is 0.  If it uses 10 EP
or less for ship's systems, its agility is 1.

For emergency agility, assume that ship's systems are turned off; the only
thing drawing power is the manoeuvre drive.  The "extra" power is the power
previously used by everything else.

Note that neither type of agility was allowed to exceed the ship's manoeuvre
drive rating; if it only had manoeuvre drive 1, its emergency agility would
be 1.

> Ok, High Guard functioned like this:  A ship with power plant-2 and
> maneuver drive-2 automatically becomes agility=2.

Only if it has no energy-consuming weapons, screens or computer (i.e.
only missile and sandcaster armament, computer Model 2 or less, no
screens except a black globe).

>						    In order to have
> a functioning maneuver drive, you had to have a power plant factor
> equal to the maneuver drive ...

At least equal to the manoeuvre drive.  The power plant rating could be
greater than the manouvre drive rating, so you could use weapons, screens,
computer and manoeuvre drive.

> Now, when a High Guard ship attempts to escape, the ship relies on
> agility to do so, not maneuver drive.  So a 3-G ship with agility=3
> can escape from a 6-G ship with agility=1.
> 
> Rationalization:  The 6G ship's power plant is being drained away
> from the maneuver drive and it is not putting out 6-G's, it is putting
> out only 1G.

Correct, unless the 6G ship uses its emergency agility of 6G (and has a large
enough power plant to supply its 6G manoeuvre drive).  (In which case, the
3G ship will probably turn round and fight, but that's not important to this
argument.)

> In view of the MegaTrav design rules this does not translate unless
> we do the following:
> 
> 	(Power required for maneuver drive + "excess" power)
> Agility=--------------------------------------------------- * 5.4
> 			Unloaded Weight

I'd substitute "Power available for manoeuvre drive" for the entire top line.
Power available for manoeuvre drive = output of power plant - power used by
other things.  This is presumably what the MT manual means by "excess power".
In fact, this is precisely what it means.  In my manual, it says "Excess power
output is the power left over from the power plant after all of the craft's
other components have been powered".  This is a big surprise - something in the
MT Referee's manual does make sense! :-)

> Agility may not exceed maneuver drive rating.
> (No more agility=6 1-G drive ships...)

Perhaps they should have stated that explicitly.  This was certainly the case
in High Guard.

> Note that if a ship is powering weapons the "excess" power can be negative
> thus subtracting from the ship's ability to maneuver.  This is what Rob
> refers to as "Double Dipping".

Not by the above definition.  Excess power = power output - power used by
systems other than manoeuvre drive.  If this is negative, you need a bigger
power plant or smaller systems.  If it is zero, the ship's agility is zero.

> His opinion is that we should use the loaded weight for the above
> calculations and I concur.  How often are ships flying around with
> no fuel and no cargo?

I agree with this.  In High Guard, the ship's displacement included fuel, cargo
and waste space.  Waste space was any of the ship's tonnage which wasn't used
for something else, and only showed up if the designer didn't use it as cargo
space for some reason.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
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Subject: TML Bundle #224: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
2732  07-Aug-91 Adrian Hurt       Re: Of Droynes and Coyns << d9bertil@dtek.cha
2733  07-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Re^inf+1: High Speed Projectiles << Last nigh
2734  07-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Re: Vehicle computers << Rob Dean writes of v
2735  07-Aug-91 Brian G. Vaughan  Starship agility << In _Starship_Operator's_M
2736  07-Aug-91 cmaddox@imsa.edu  Additional Questions about Sword Worlds, Darr
2737  07-Aug-91 James T Perkins   TML Archive Wars << Here's some information t
2738  07-Aug-91 James T Perkins   TML Archive Instructions << Traveller Mailing
2739  08-Aug-91 kirsch@rhea.infor Re : Starship agility (2735) << Brian G. Vaug
2740  08-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Re: Re: Revised Agility Calculation << Perhap
2741  08-Aug-91 "Robert S. Dean"  Re: (2731) Re: Revised Agility Calculation Fo
2742  08-Aug-91 George William He MT Starship Combat rules... << This is probab

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2732
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Of Droynes and Coyns
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 91 11:09:33 BST

d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se writes:
>   (There should probably be a ^L to protect the young and innocent from
>   reading stuff about Ancients here.)

It didn't work here.  It looks like the message has a ^ followed by a L,
rather than a Control-L.  This one really is a Control-L, inserted using
vi by using the Control-V Control-L technique.  If anyone sees it as two
separate characters (^ and L), then there's a broken mailer somewhere in the
line.
^L

[Ahh, the TML is too clever for you.  In an effort to snuff out
unprintable characters, the TML digester software (urrpp!) uses cat -v
to replace all control sequences, except newline and tab, with the ^X
equivalent (note BSD cat and Sys V cat are ever so slightly different on
this) -- James]

>   If I'm not totally mistaken, the Imperial Encyclopedia lists coyns as one
>type of common artifacts in the entry on artifacts. I agree that it might seem
>hard to reconcile this with the "Coyns was introduced by Grandfather", and the
>fact that some major races that hadn't appeared on the stellar stage appear on
>coyns.

No problem.  The Ancients had coyns, but no coyns with new major races.  The
coyns featuring the new races were introduced by Grandfather.  At least, that's
my explanation.

>   In my current campaign(s) I keep the question open. When one of the players
> said something like "Well, I *know* that they were Droyne because 'Secret of
> the Ancients' says so." ...

I'd be inclined to reply "That book is what your character uses for SF".

I have made up my own history of the Ancients.  Veteran TMLers may have seen
it here before, but I'm going to repost it anyway.  So there!  :-)
...............................................................................

After reading "The Mote in God's Eye" by Larry Niven and James Pournelle, I
was struck by the similarities between Moties and Droyne.  Both are caste-based
societies, and most of the castes match, e.g. Droyne Leaders = Motie Masters,
Droyne Technicians = Motie Engineers.  Droyne don't have miniature Watchmakers
(that we've seen), and their Drones don't have any Motie equivalent that I
recognised, though.  Still, it set me thinking about resolving the Riddle of
the Ancients in terms of Moties.  Anything is better than the official
explanation, so try this.

In their earlier times, the Droyne had the same problem as the Moties.  They had
to reproduce, or they would die.  This led to immense population problems, which
were solved to some extent when the Jump Drive was invented.  "Some extent"
means that it was only a matter of time before the worlds which were colonised
were also overcrowded.  Inevitably, interstellar war resulted, but not before
the Droyne had reached very high tech levels.  Some colonies were wiped out;
others were blasted back to a Stone Age equivalent.  Bases were left behind,
some intact, others ruined.  No two bases were ever the same, as no two Droyne
did the same thing the same way.

Civilisations rose and fell several times before one Droyne, the Yaskoydray of
legend, formed a new society in which the needs of society totally overrode
the wishes of individuals.  If an individual had to reproduce or die, and no
more children were needed by society, tough - the individual died.  The impact
was lessened to some extent by the discovery of a hormone-control drug which
counteracted the biological need to reproduce.  Yaskoydray tested this first on
himself, and when it appeared to be effective, issued it to his society.

Other societies were divided in their opinions of these developments.  Some
welcomed the apparent end to millenia of rises and falls, of creation followed
by destruction.  Others were reluctant to take the step into an entirely new
system.  There was one more, cataclysmic war.  Yaskoydray's side won, but it was
a Pyrrhic victory, as the few survivors were once more reduced to primitive
levels.  Most of the survivors were on only two worlds, Andory and Candory.  A
few isolated groups exist throughout space, but very small groups.

While the survivors of Andory and Candory were struggling to revive their
society, a new factor made itself felt.  Humanity was, for the first time,
also capable of jump travel.  The Imperials were the first to discover the
twin worlds.  Their archaeologists learnt a few fragments of the above history;
enough to regard the Droyne as a potential threat, but only potential.  There
was no reason to exterminate them, but they had to be watched in case they
expanded again.

In fact, there is no such threat.  The concept of the individual being totally
subordinate to society is still in force.  The hormone control drug was lost,
along with much of the Ancients' technology, but the rigid society attitude,
backed up by quasi-religious rituals such as those of the coyns, keep the
population in check.  An individual lives just as long as it is needed by
society, then it dies.  A few choose not to die, but they soon run into the
old problem.  They have to breed, or they become listless and unhappy, and
eventually die anyway.  But so long has it been since anyone bred for that
reason, that none know the cause of their unhappiness; and besides, none but
perhaps another one of these "deathless ones" will have anything to do with
them.

There is a legend which persists, that Yaskoydray is alive and well, and visits
the Droyne occasionally.  The presence of coyns which cannot be otherwise
explained lends some credence.  In truth, although none but Yaskoydray himself
know it, when he first tried the hormone control drug on himself, he overdosed.
But as the need to reproduce or die was nature's way of trying to keep Droyne
from living too long, and as he has overcome that need, he is in effect
immortal.  Which does not make him very happy; even Ancients can get tired of
life when they've seen everything.  Yaskoydray has seen more, and knows more,
than the sum total of the experience of all the human subspecies put together.
He's also slightly cowardly.  He won't commit suicide, or take actions which
threaten him.  Thus he is tired of life, but afraid to die.

Well, there you have it.  Yet another Theory of the Ancients.  Any comments?
One quick side note, as this is inspired by "The Mote in God's Eye"; there
is a star called "The Eye Of God", or more correctly, "L'Oeuil d'Dieu".  (That
high school French had some use, after all! :-)  What a pity this star is on
the wrong side of the Spinward Marches.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2733
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1991 13:09 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Re^inf+1: High Speed Projectiles

Last night I helped some students with a neat physics problem:
calculate the work done by glaciers in excavating Lake Superior
(avg depth 31 meters, area 1.46X10^5 km^2)  We then converted the energy
(work) into various units:  including 20 megaton h-bombs.  Result:
it takes twenty 20megaton bombs to dig that crater (assuming 100% efficency)
Crater: 31m deep, 216km in radius

Now the good ol` 1Kl of lead @ .1C has 1.3 gigatons of yield:
Crater 31m deep, 389 km in radius.  (quite a shovel eh?)  More that
as Adrian put it 'a couple of nuclear missiles' (65 20-megaton bombs)

Also, If you did your accelerating out of the eccliptic plane by a
few AU or so, chances are pretty decent for making your run without
hitting something.  If you are in interstellar space say a few hundred AU
chances ought to be excellent.  And I agree with Bertil when he say's
for every task there's a vargr insane enough to try it...

But:  on to reaction drives:  If I have an spacecraft with a fusion rocket
that weighs 195 tons.  The thrust is 1911 neutons (195 metric tons Kg force)
{{I hate Kg force}}  the acceletation is 1 G or 9.8 meters per sec.

The equation as I said before is pure Newton:  F=ma,  The equation will hold
at velocity=0 at velocity=1000kph, and at velocity =.1c.  Sorry,
exhaust velocity has NO effect on the final speed of the rocket.

As to physics nullifiers....  (I don't like em!)  The traveller interplanetary
travel funtions as though acceleration is constant.  Thus there is no top
speed limit there to be found.  However, in normal interplanetary travel, you
wouldn't want to go riproaring along for the problem Adrian pointed out, that
the eccliptic plane is too full of junk to move around at .1c.

If we say that maneuver drive decreases the mass of the ship allowing
a ship to have a smaller inertia to push around (ala Larry Niven's 'Gil the
arm' murder weapon/inertia reducer/physics nullifier (tm))  Well, the instant
you shut down power to it your mass would return to normal and your velocity
would reduce down along with your KE.  This would make decelleration
instantaneous.  This does not go with any traveller rules I've ever seen.
As far as I know trav ships function like ordinary rockets in this regard.

I don't like physics nullifiers, I don't use em unless I have to...
Jump drive and anti-grav.

As to the problem of KE being greater than PE of ship...
Well, if the engines are supposed to be able to run for 30 days...  You have
to calculate the final velocity of the ship at the end of 30 days of acceletating, figure out the KE and that Must equal the 
PE.  If we accept KE, then we
must accept the consequences of PE. (ie reduced endurace to 2 days)  if we
accept PE then we must accept the KE (velocity >.1c is attainable)

If this ever came up in a campaign I was running, I would make the players
do all the calculations.  Play up the risks (as Adrian put them), and if
that didn't dissuade them, and they rolled well enough, I would reluctantly
have to destroy a planet.  It would not be long before, The Imperial Navy
combined with the Zhodani, Navy, the Sword Worlds, the Darrians, Collace,
and every single other ship in the entire galaxy was after them.

And frankly, as I would be the ref, it wouldn't take long to catch them.

I imagine the courts would be hard pressed to find deaths painful enough
as penalty for torching a planet like that....

Scott S. Kellogg.

PS Haven't we run this one into the ground?  Take a look at the agility
calculations Rob and I worked on...  Let's move on to something new...

Scotty

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2734
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1991 14:40 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Re:  Vehicle computers

Rob Dean writes of vehicle computers being used in combat.

I have always been under the impression that a model one computer adds
an additional +1 on the to hit task for various vehicles.  I dislike this
as the computer is large enough and expensive enough to add more accuracy
than that.  So, I would say that in tank to tank combat, one would use
the difference in computers as a bonus to hit.  (like starship combat)

But against a target that either does not have a computer, or has one
but is not aware of it's adversary (ie not evading) the computer should
give additional bonuses to hit {More than just the computer model number}

As to range/speed modifiers...  If the tanks are performing above NOE
then I would treat it as air combat (COACC may have design problems, but
the air to air combat seems pretty good

)  Use the MaxAcceleration of the
tank as it's agility.

Actually, I see grav tank vs grav tank not as an extention of modern
tank vs. tank, but an extention of modern helicopter vs helicopter
combat.  (ie hiding, unmasking sensor pods, pop ups, etc.)  So again, I
would use air to air.

But on the ground the rules Rob mentioned seem pretty good.  In NOE tanks
ought to be very hard to hit if you are on level with them.

Gunnery computers:  I thought about this a while ago:  It seems to me that
a +1 to dice rolls seems pretty paltry for something as expensive and large
as a model 1 computer.  Therefore what I considered was installing a
robot cpu with program for vehicle control or gunnery.  All it does is add
a little edge (I originally talked about vehicle control but it could be
extended to gunnery).

This gunnery computer would be linked to sensors (radar/ladar/EMS/Environ)
to take into account the movement of the target and the wind speed for
MD or chemically propelled rounds.  This seems more like the M-1 gunnery
computer than the model one starship computer.

Just rambling...

Scott Kellogg

Beware...  The Horde is coming...

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2735
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 91 12:08:58 -0700
From: Brian G. Vaughan <bvaughan@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Starship agility


In _Starship_Operator's_Manual_, there is an extended description of the
gyroscopic system used to control a ship's heading.  It seems that everyone
has been assuming the extra power used for agility goes to the thruster plates.
Perhaps it goes to this gyroscopic system.  Agility, then, would be properly
a measure of a ship's ability to change heading, rather than direction.

If this is the case, then, I suppose, changing direction of movement, for the
purposes of navigation, would only be a matter of thrusters; agility would be
irrelevant.  Agility would become important in combat, however, in aiming
spinal mount weapons, and in making extremely rapid direction changes, as in
dodging missiles.

But I'm no physicist, so, having suggested this, I'll leave it to those of you
who are.

Brian G. Vaughan

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2736
Date: Wed, 7 Aug 1991 16:35:20 -0600
From: cmaddox@imsa.edu
Subject: Additional Questions about Sword Worlds, Darrians, etc.

>
>I have a question for anyone who is familiar with the recent events in the
>Spindward Marches:  
>
>Can anyone fill me in or help me speculate on what has occurred in the 
>Sword World Conferation, the Border Worlds, and/or the Darrian Confeferation
>since the rebellion broke out in the Imperium? 
>
>Greg Horlacher
>[sage@caen.engin.umich.edu]
>
I too am interested in the current happenings within this area of the
Marches. 

In addition I am interested as to how this area faired during and after the
Fifth Frontier War.  I am particularly interested in how the Border Worlds
came to be formed, the economic (depression?) and political (unrest?
tension?) situation in this region.  Another area that I would like to hear
more about is the Federation of Arden.

This is my first post, having joined TML late last week.  I have been
enjoying the discussion.  Please forgive me if I've missed an obivious
archive somewhere.

Thanks!

Chuck

Chuck Maddox    	       	       	       	       	cmaddox@imsa.edu
Computer Technician     	       	       	       	(708)-801-6015    	
Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy
  	       	


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2737
Subject: TML Archive Wars
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 91 17:09:09 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.WR>


Here's some information that may be of interest to all.

VEHICLE DESIGNS: there are now vehicle designs aplenty available from
metolius and sunbane.  I culled out all the designs sent through the TML
and created 24 "packages" containing them.  Look for these as "VD1"
through "VD24".

PBEM TURNS: turn 10.10 and it's admin message have been added to the
archives on metolius and sunbane.  Look for it as "PB15".

MS-DOS FLOPPIES: have just been brought up-to-date with the latest
bundles and packages.  There are now twenty two 720kB, 3.5" MS-DOS
diskettes, which echo the metolius TML archive site contents.  Look for
this information on sunbane as "MSDOS.txt"

README: sunbane's new top-level README, and TOC, is now up-to-date.

ARCHIVE INFORMATION: now lists all the known TML ftp sites and hints at
what's there.  The information follows this TML message.

James
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Traveller Mailing List Administrator	     James T Perkins @ Tektronix, Inc
traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com	     Beaverton, Oregon, USA
    "How many ancients can dance on the head of a pin?" - Scott Kellogg

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2738
Subject: TML Archive Instructions
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 91 17:09:27 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.WR>



		Traveller Mailing List Message Archives
			 Retrieval Instructions

			   Updated 7 Aug 1991

This handy quick-reference table indicates at a glance what is contained
at the various TML archive sites:

				------- What's there -------
	Site		Method	Buns	Pkgs	Soft	Vehi	Prose
	--------------	------	----	----	----	----	-----
	sunbane		ftp	all	all	some*	some	all
	metolius	email	all*	all*	---	---	---
	metolius	disk	all	all	---	---	---
	ocf		ftp	---	---	---	all*	---
	naucse		ftp	---	---	some	---	---
	potemkin	ftp	---	---	some	---	---
	ucr		ftp	---	---	some	---	all*
	milton		ftp	---	---	some	---	---

	* - indicates which site is likely to be most up-to-date for
	    a particular type of material.

There are several different sites archiving Traveller Mailing
List-related materials.  The primary archive sites are called 'sunbane'
and 'metolius', and there are special-interest archive sites at 'ocf',
'naucse', 'potemkin', 'ucr', and 'milton'.

There are different ways to request archive information, depending on
the site you get the archives from.  'ftp' indicates anonyomous ftp
online file transfer, available for anyone directly connected to the
internet.  'email' indicates reponse and data via email.  'disk'
indicates 3.5" 720kB MSDOS floppies delivered by the postal service.

Also depending on the site, there are different materials available.
'Buns' indicates the TML message traffic, about 10 megabytes in size.
'Pkgs' indicates "Packages" of collected information, primarily culled
from TML archive messages: errata, software, official sector data, and
vehicle designs.  'Soft' indicates additional gaming aid software,
beyond that available in the Packages.  'Vehi' indicates vehicle
designs, beyond that available in the Packages.  'Prose' indicates some
documentation for an alternate history for Traveller.

SUNBANE FTP ARCHIVE SITE

All the TML traffic (Bundles) and Packages, and some additional software
and postscript deck plans, are available via ftp from sunbane, See the
sample ftp session below if you don't know how to use ftp.

	Host name:		sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca
	IP Address:		129.100.100.12
	Directory:		pub/traveller
	Site administrator:	dan@engrg.uwo.ca (Dan Corrin)

The files README and TOC provide a brief/detailed summary of the
contents of the archive.

The site is managed solely by the FTP Site Coordinator: dan@engrg.uwo.ca
(Dan Corrin).  The University of Western Ontario is not responsible for
the materials and opinions stored in the archives.

METOLIUS EMAIL AND DISKETTE ARCHIVE SITE

All the TML traffic (Bundles) and Packages are available via email or
MSDOS diskette from the Traveller Mailing List Administrator,
traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com.  I do this as time becomes
available, every other week or so, so sunbane is usually the fastest way
of getting information, not metolius.  Sunbane is also better connected
for sending lots of megabytes out across the networks.  If you still
want or need to use the metolius archive service, I will gladly send you
a detailed Bundle Table-of-Contents so you can pick and choose which
Bundles look interesting.

For more information on receiving TML Bundles and Packages on 3.5"
Double-Sided, Double-Density MSDOS-format diskettes, please write the
TML Administrator via email at traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com.

OCF FTP ARCHIVE SITE

The ocf archive site maintains the consummate set of MegaTraveller
Vehicle Designs.  There are literally hundreds of them available at all
tech levels, sizes, and prices, from Starships to tricycles.  This stuff
eventually gets transferred to the sunbane site, too.  See the sample
ftp session below if you don't know how to use ftp.

	Host name:		ocf.berkeley.edu
	IP Address:		128.32.184.254
	Directory:		pub/Traveller
	Site administrator:	gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu (George Herbert)

NAUCSE FTP ARCHIVE SITE

The naucse archive site contains some private software development
related to MegaTraveller character generation.  The files there are 386
PC MSDOS exeuctables (.exe's).  See the sample ftp session below if you
don't know how to use ftp.

	Host name:		wew.ucc.nau.edu
	IP Address:		134.114.32.3
	Directory:		fixes,misc,gm
	Site administrator:	wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson)

POTEMKIN FTP ARCHIVE SITE

The potemkin archive site contains some private software development
related to random alien word generation.  The files there are mostly C
language source, specifically, for Vargr name generation.  See the
sample ftp session below if you don't know how to use ftp.

	Host name:		potemkin.cs.pdx.edu
	IP Address:		131.252.20.145
	Directory:		pub/frp/src/name
	Files:			name2.c
	Site administrator:	bfwong@ocf.berkeley.edu (Raven Blackburn)

UCR FTP ARCHIVE SITE

The ucr archive site contains some alternate history for Traveller
documents and postscript illustrations.  This stuff eventually gets
transferred to the sunbane site.  See the sample ftp session below if
you don't know how to use ftp.

	Host name:		watnxt2.ucr.edu
	IP Address:		192.31.146.189
	Directory:		pub/ucrgg
	Files:			thist*,tmap*,tyber*
	Site administrator:	jimv@ucrmath.ucr.edu (Jim Vassilakos)

MILTON FTP ARCHIVE SITE

The milton archive site contains some software written by Jo Jaquinta
which implements the MegaTraveller World Builder's Handbook generation
and graphical display on an IBM PC-type computer.  This stuff eventually
gets transferred to the sunbane site, too.  See the sample ftp session
below if you don't know how to use ftp.

	Host name:		milton.u.washington.edu
	IP Address:		128.95.136.1
	Directory:		public/trav
	Files:			libdist.zip
	Site administrator:	viper@u.washington.edu (Ryan Cambell)

SAMPLE FTP SESSION

A sample ftp session to sunbane follows (lines that a user would type on
are marked with a "*", and commentary begins with a "#").  All the ftp
sites' files are accessed in a similar manner:

    *	shell> ftp 129.100.100.12		#begin the ftp session
	Connected to 129.100.100.12.
	220 sunbane FTP server (SunOS 4.0) ready.
    *	Name (129.100.100.12:dan):anonymous   #prompts for your id, but type
					    #anonymous for archives
	331 Guest login ok, send ident as password.
    *	Password: 		#type yourlogin@yourhost.xx.xx here -
    				#echoing is disabled
	230 Guest login ok, access restrictions apply.
    *	ftp> binary		#set transfer type to binary
	200 Type set to I.
    *	ftp> cd pub/traveller	#chdir to the Traveller area
	250 CWD command successful.
    *	ftp> get bun01.Z	#file name assumed to be same on your host
	150 Binary data connection for bun01.Z (129.100.100.51,2328)
	    (20480 bytes).
	226 Binary Transfer complete.
	local: bun01.Z remote: bun01.Z
	20480 bytes received in .34 seconds (59 Kbytes/s)
				#repeat get command as desired
    *	ftp> bye		#terminate the ftp session
	221 Goodbye.
    *	shell> uncompress bun01.Z	#uncompress the bundle

PACKAGES TABLE-OF-CONTENTS

Packages are an assortment of MegaTraveller Errata, DGP Official Sector
Data, Referee Game Aid Software, many Vehicle and Starship Designs, and
Play-by-email game turns.  These Packages are available from the sunbane
or the metolius archive sites.

MegaTraveller Packages:

	Official Errata from Digest Group Publications as posted on GEnie.

	MT1: MegaTraveller Errata, part 1/2
	    Msgs 163,181 (48837 bytes)
	MT2: MegaTraveller Errata, part 2/2
	    Msgs 180,182 (34247 bytes)

Software Packages:

	SW1: Gensec, mapsub and subsec.csh
	    Msgs 58-59,69-72 (21784 bytes)
	SW2: Expanded System Generator
	    Msg 106 (52597 bytes)
	SW3: NPC and Travel Times
	    Msgs 238,250 (9297 bytes)
	SW4: MegaTraveller-compatible gensec, mapsub
	    Msg 318 (45216 bytes)
	SW5: Weather Generation
	    Msg 469 (39585 bytes)
	SW6: Cosmos Starship Generation
	    Msg 777 (32170 bytes)
	SW7: Expand UWPs, Weapon Availability
	    Msg 1112 (31494 bytes)
	SW8: Misc
	    Msg 384,719,780,823,899 (35358 bytes)
	SW9: (9 parts) Sysgen4 Sector/System/World Generation Suite
	    A comprehensive suite (445031 bytes)
	SW10: (2 parts) X11R4 Subsector Viewer
	    View & Print Subsectors on your X11 workstation (70602 bytes)
	SW11: Trade and Commerce Generator
	    Generate & Print available cargo/freight lots (27388 bytes)
	SW12: Random Name Generator
	    Generate & Print pages of random names (27388 bytes)

Offical Imperium Sector Data from DGP on Genie:

	SD1: Corridor, Reft, Riftspan Reaches, Verge (53827 bytes)
	SD2: Empty Quarter, Trojan Reaches (45128 bytes)
	SD3: Delphi, Glimmerdrift Reaches (48816 bytes)
	SD4: Deneb, Ley (53800 bytes)
	SD5: Solomani Rim (28457 bytes)
	SD6: Old Expanses (30366 bytes)
	SD7: Hinterworlds (30967 bytes)
	SD8: Spinward Marches (30987 bytes)
	SD9: Daibei (31927 bytes)
	SD10: Spica (31924 bytes)
	SD11: Diaspora (32155 bytes)
	SD12: Alpha Crucis (34422 bytes)
	SD13: Vland (35000 bytes)
	SD14: Fornast (36298 bytes)
	SD15: Massilia (36477 bytes)
	SD16: Gushemege (37423 bytes)
	SD17: Core (38139 bytes)
	SD18: Antares (38626 bytes)
	SD19: Dagudashaag (39127 bytes)
	SD20: Lishun (41827 bytes)

Vehicle Design Packages:

	A few classic Traveller and many MegaTraveller vehicle designs
	(from meson gun cruisers to submarines to garbage trucks).

	VD1: Msgs 33,36,37,41,45,48,49 (20779 bytes)
	VD2: Msgs 217,219,228,389,465,466,467,477,589 (30266 bytes)
	VD3: Msgs 736 (38106 bytes)
	VD4: Msgs 772,873,874,888,1047,1051,1291 (30030 bytes)
	VD5: Msgs 1379 (49086 bytes)
	VD6: Msgs 1381,1398 (45024 bytes)
	VD7: Msgs 1424,1435,1438,1514,1530,1531 (45449 bytes)
	VD8: Msgs 1549,1553,1554,1556,1569 (45966 bytes)
	VD9: Msgs 1573,1578,1581,1601,1602 (36545 bytes)
	VD10: Msgs 1604,1608,1616 (39316 bytes)
	VD11: Msgs 1635,1639,1644,1646,1648 (43244 bytes)
	VD12: Msgs 1658,1663-5 (40012 bytes)
	VD13: Msgs 1666-7,1670-1,1675-6 (44371 bytes)
	VD14: Msgs 1678-9,1682,1686-7,1689 (45687 bytes)
	VD15: Msgs 1691-2,1726,1888-9,1906,1919 (43574 bytes)
	VD16: Msgs 1920,1954-6,1961,1966-7,1983-4 (42629 bytes)
	VD17: Msgs 1985-6,2016,2030,2106,2121 (34835 bytes)
	VD18: Msgs 2191,2205,2261,2266,2279 (44326 bytes)
	VD19: Msgs 2309,2318,2324,2333,2335-6 (41567 bytes)
	VD20: Msgs 2344,2346-7,2349,2355,2361,2365 (43783 bytes)
	VD21: Msgs 2368-70,2372,2375,2379,2384,2399,2445,2455 (45631 bytes)
	VD22: Msgs 2478,2517,2521,2553,2577,2579 (40612 bytes)
	VD23: Msgs 2600 (38462 bytes)
	VD24: Msgs 2623,2637,2642,2653 (16360 bytes)

TML Play-by-email game turns:

	Richard Johnson's TML PBEM play turns and administrative notes.

	PB1: TML PBEM intro, turn 0.0, turn 0.1
	    Msgs 787,802,835,837,845-6,848,855,859
	PB2: TML PBEM turn 0.2, 0.3, 1.0, updates
	    Msgs 905,935,975,1065-6,1095,1106
	PB3: TML PBEM turn 3.0, 3.2
	    Msgs 1131-3
	PB4: TML PBEM turn 3.1, addresses, turn 4.0 (some)
	    Msgs 1134,1146,1169,1180,1198
	PB5: TML PBEM turn 4.1 (rest), 4.2, 10.1, 10.2
	    Msgs 1199,1200,1566,1593-4,1613,1625
	PB6: TML PBEM turn 10.4, admin stuff
	    Msgs 1707,1721,1818,1822,1837,1852
	PB7: TML PBEM status, turn 10.5 (most)
	    Msgs 1999,2023,2025,2027
	PB8: TML PBEM turn 10.5 (rest), 10.6
	    Msgs 2029,2156,2182
	PB9: TML PBEM turn 10.7, admin stuff
	    Msgs 2234,2248-9,2251
	PB10: TML PBEM turn 10.8a
	    Msgs 2254 (first part)
	PB11: TML PBEM turn 10.8b, R-alpha natives, whining, admin
	    Msgs 2254 (second part),2267,2274,2304-5
	PB12: TML PBEM turn 10.9A, 10.9B
	    Msgs 2306,2317,2325,2327
	PB13: TML PBEM turn 10.9D
	    Msgs 2328
	PB14: TML PBEM turn 10.9C, 10.9E
	    Msgs 2329,2330
	PB15: TML PBEM admin, turn 10.10
	    Msgs 2692,2693

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    "How many ancients can dance on the head of a pin?" - Scott Kellogg

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2739
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1991 16:25:40 EDT
From: kirsch@rhea.informatik.uni-bonn.de
Subject: Re : Starship agility (2735)

Brian G. Vaughan writes :

>In _Starship_Operator's_Manual_, there is an extended description of the
>gyroscopic system used to control a ship's heading.  It seems that everyone
>has been assuming the extra power used for agility goes to the thruster plates.
>Perhaps it goes to this gyroscopic system.  Agility, then, would be properly
>a measure of a ship's ability to change heading, rather than direction.

Excuse me, but you can not use gyros, to change the movement vector of a
ship. The only thing you can do, is to turn the ship around is gyros. You
can handle the gyros a fixpoint, around which the mass of the ship can be
turned. After the turn, the ship can use its thruster plates, to change
his movement vector. The advantage of the gyros, is the possibility to turn
the ship, without changing its movement vector. But the agility is 
nevertheless dependent on the maneuver drives, because only this drives
can change the ships movement vector. And only the change of the movement
vector is necessary, to dodge attacks (i.e. take a Ship with a hull
configuration of 5 (ball). It can turn around its gyros, to change the
direction in which the maneuver drive shows, but it will not shorten its 
profile against attacks. It must use its maneuver drive, to dodge incomming
attacks).

>If this is the case, then, I suppose, changing direction of movement, for the
>purposes of navigation, would only be a matter of thrusters; agility would be
>irrelevant.  Agility would become important in combat, however, in aiming
>spinal mount weapons, and in making extremely rapid direction changes, as in
>dodging missiles.

On purpose of navigation, its much better to use the gyros. You can manipulate
them much more exact. And, using  the description in the Ship's Operator
Manual, the gyros have enough mass, to turn a ship in fractions of a second.
The more mass, and the more rounds per second a gyro has, the faster you
can turn the ships mass. Small thrusters for changing the ships heading
are slower and even not as precise (think of the fact: every use of a thruster
to turn a ship left, needs a use of a thruster to stop this turn).
In so far you are right to say, gyros have affects on agility, but the
maneuver drive is much more important.

At last a big disadvantage og gyroscopes :
They are big masses, which rotate on thousands of rounds per second. If
a gyro ever leaves its location, it will destroy the ship in quaters
of seconds. (Hey Scott Kellog, it could be a work for, to calculate
the energy which would be freed ? ;-))

Comments ?

Juergen

- - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Juergen Kirsch
Institut fuer Informatik, Universitaet Bonn
Germany
kirsch@rhea.informatik.uni-bonn.de

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2740
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 1991 12:39 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Revised Agility Calculation

Perhaps I wasn't very clear with my definition of terms in the
agility equation

"Power Required for maneuver drive": this is the amount of power which is
normally drawn by the manuever drive
(I don't have my books with me but I think it is (per ton of drive)
65MW for anti-grav drive
70MW for Thruster plate drive  (this is for every 13.5 KL of drive)

"Excess Power": Is the amount of power left over after all systems have
been powered (Sensors, Weapons, Drives, Environ, Comm, etc. etc.)

The "Excess Power" can be negative.  The Weapons may draw more power
than is available after all systems have been powered.  In this case
the power is being diverted from the maneuver drive to the weapons
enabling them to fire.  This will have an adverse effect on maneuver/agility.
(note that the weapons may not draw more power than the total output
of the power plant)

Thus the equation:

		(Power req for maneuver drive + "excess" Power)
Agility=	-----------------------------------------------*10
			Loaded Weight

Ya dig, Baby?

Scott S. Kellogg
The Horde is coming.........

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2741
Date:     Thu, 8 Aug 91 15:46:59 EDT
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  (2731) Re: Revised Agility Calculation Formula

Adrian Hurt writes:
 
> > Ok, High Guard functioned like this:  A ship with power plant-2 and
> > maneuver drive-2 automatically becomes agility=2.
> 
> Only if it has no energy-consuming weapons, screens or computer (i.e.
> only missile and sandcaster armament, computer Model 2 or less, no
> screens except a black globe).

Your are, of course, correct, but I didn't want to make the explanation
any more longwinded than necessary.

> >						    In order to have
> > a functioning maneuver drive, you had to have a power plant factor
> > equal to the maneuver drive ...
> 
> At least equal to the manoeuvre drive.  The power plant rating could be
> greater than the manouvre drive rating, so you could use weapons, screens,
> computer and manoeuvre drive.

See above. (-8

> > Rationalization:  The 6G ship's power plant is being drained away
> > from the maneuver drive and it is not putting out 6-G's, it is putting
> > out only 1G.
> 
> Correct, unless the 6G ship uses its emergency agility of 6G (and has a large
> enough power plant to supply its 6G manoeuvre drive). 
> 
> > In view of the MegaTrav design rules this does not translate unless
> > we do the following:
> > 
> > 	(Power required for maneuver drive + "excess" power)
> > Agility=--------------------------------------------------- * 5.4
> > 			Unloaded Weight
> 
> I'd substitute "Power available for manoeuvre drive" for the entire top line.
> Power available for manoeuvre drive = output of power plant - power used by
> other things.  This is presumably what the MT manual means by "excess power".
> In fact, this is precisely what it means. In my manual, it says "Excess power
> output is the power left over from the power plant after all of the craft's
> other components have been powered". This is a big surprise--something in the
> MT Referee's manual does make sense! :-)

While I agree with you, of course, it is not so obvious as you think it is, at
least to several other eminent members of this group with whom I have had this
discussion.  As a result, I thought it best to spell it out.

> > Agility may not exceed maneuver drive rating.
> > (No more agility=6 1-G drive ships...)
> 
> Perhaps they should have stated that explicitly.  This was certainly the case
> in High Guard.

Ah! But they didn't, because they didn't intend for it to be the same.  That's
why we've got Joe Fugate explaining that the agility rating is your ability
to 'alter your heading' for pity's sake, rather than the ability to alter
your maneuver vector.  Since you can rotate all you want (with three degrees
of freedom, no less) and still end up presenting a 'ballistic' rather than
a maneuvering target, I reject this view utterly.

> > Note that if a ship is powering weapons the "excess" power can be negative
> > thus subtracting from the ship's ability to maneuver.  This is what Rob
> > refers to as "Double Dipping".
> 
> Not by the above definition.  Excess power = power output - power used by
> systems other than manoeuvre drive.  If this is negative, you need a bigger
> power plant or smaller systems.  If it is zero, the ship's agility is zero.

I use this terminology to make it explicit that I mean exactly what High
Guard meant, as opposed to certain folks around here (-8, who feel that
the power used _by the drive_ should be included, leaving excess power as
anything over and above that normally used by the drive (overloading!).


The whole question of "What is agility?" is tied in pretty closely with the
question of whether or not the combat system is rational as it now stands
(give or take a little).  If we view ships as 'hard to hit', then it would
make sense to spray your weapons all over their potential positions, which
is why a 30 laser battery does the same damage as a 1 laser battery, if
both manage to hit.  Now, if ships are spraying automatic weapons fire (-8
all over, then to be hard to hit, you obviously must need to make a substantive
change in your projected position, which means using the maneuver drive
to accelerate rather than just 'dodging' a little bit in place.  Does that make
any sense to anyone?

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2742
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 91 17:16:36 -0700
From: George William Herbert <gwh@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: MT Starship Combat rules...


	This is probably whistling in the dark, but I have some questions for
anyone who has actually used the MT starship combat rules, or someone
with a recent printing of them (if the bugs were fixed).

	I've applied the erratta changes to combat tables, but have a few
questions about the Explanation of Damage Results.
	One: do the 'crew sections' rules work, and if so, why? 8-) (they don't
make any sense to me, esp. in terms of damage)
	Two: For damage to Power Plant, the rules say 'reduce UCP factor',
obviously a direct copy from High Guard.  Unfortunately, the craft design
rules no longer _use_ the UCP for powerplant rating or design.  How do you
handle PP damage?

[you may assume that the hypercard ship combat program will be a bit delayed.
as much as I hate the concept of vaporware, there are some critical problems
with the rules that I need to resolve before I start coding again... sorry]

- - -george william herbert
gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
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TML Bundles come from the archives of the Traveller Mailing List,
maintained by James Perkins, traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun Aug 11 21:00:20 PDT 1991
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #225: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
2743  09-Aug-91 Mike.Metlay@ORGAN NOT ANOTHER POST ON STARSHIP AGILITY?! Well, 
2744  09-Aug-91 "Robert S. Dean"  Re: (2742) MT Starship Combat rules... << In 
2745  09-Aug-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: (2742) MT Starship Combat rules... << > =
2746  09-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Auxillury bridges << The subject came up how 
2747  09-Aug-91 "Robert S. Dean"  Re: (2742) MT Starship Combat rules... << Sco
2748  09-Aug-91 cmaddox@imsa.edu  Proposed article about TML << [Or... TML visi

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2743
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 91 01:04:56 EDT
From: Mike.Metlay@ORGAN.MUSIC.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: NOT ANOTHER POST ON STARSHIP AGILITY?! Well, no, actually.


Hi, gang. After many delays, a spare evening here in lovely Atomic City,
Oak Ridge, Tennesee... (amusing story: I'm standing in line to get lunch,
the first day, and there's this young guy in front of me, about my age.
He turns to make polite conversation, and suddenly reads my name tag again,
getting this weird grin on his face. "Michael Metlay?" he asks me. "Where?"
I says, looking behind me. That widens the grin a bit, but then HE sez:
"Traveller Mailing List?" You could have knocked me over with a feather!
Turns out that TML Digest-reader Martin Jarrio from Georgia Tech is here
attending this workshop/conference in Oak Ridge too! You meet TMLers in 
the WEIRDEST places, man....)

Anyway, here's a little something I've promised folx for a long while. Since
my alternatives to writing this stuff are watching TV or putting even MORE
hours in the day into my dissertation, I figured I'd get it out of the way.
Don't be surprised at the length of the intro-- it contains a lot of stuff
that was NOT in the first four stories. I'd like to give credit to W. Dow
Rieder (Grant) and Alex Wilce (Fell) on the TML, and David Turner (Jaeger),
Boris Bartlog (Kherkhoulloth), Paul Reilly (O'Connor) and Rob Packard 
(Sanchez) off it, whose actual gaming sessions from 1989 to 1991 provided all 
of what you're about to read. I redid the dialogue because my memory isn't
that good, but the rest is mostly as it happened. When my thesis is out of
the way, I plan to pick up the game again, and we'll see more from these
guys!

metlay

- - -------------------------------------------------------------------------

SYNOPSIS AND CHARACTER INFORMATION

The Suleiman Cluster is a grouping of a dozen or so worlds within a mutual 
Jump-1 of one another in the coreward section of the Solomani Rim. One of
the most recent arrivals onto the shipping scene in this bustling little
stellar village of industry and agriculture is the fledgling line of 
Hortense, Luttner, and Grant; for the past ten years or so, this scrappy and 
inventive shipping line has managed to accrue a good two dozen ships of 
varying sizes and solidify its place in the Suleiman shipping business. Its
founders are William Hortense, Rachel Luttner, and Khagariilian Grant, three
Free Traders who pooled their resources (Hortense's administrative savvy,
Luttner's technical expertise, and Grant's brokerage/trading genius) to build 
their struggling concerns into one strong company. This move took the 
established fleets in the area by surprise, and the competition has been hot 
and heavy ever since. They include, for future reference, Rekuta (the local
Tukera affiliate), Whitestar/Concord (the local branch of WhiteStar Lines, 
the Solomani Rim's biggest non-megacorporate sector line) and Belvane
TransTech, a fiercely competitive interface line run by the inimitable
Myra Belvane (you need a description? Put Joan Collins in a vacc suit. A
TIGHT vacc suit.), whose fiery passion for Bill Hortense was often at odds
with their economic thrust and parry.

About 2 years ago (1117, the beginning of the Solomani push into the Rim),
Captain Grant sold his share of the company back to Hortense and Luttner and
went on the market to purchase a Far Trader. Grant was tired of the grind of
business management, and longed to hit the road again. On the war-torn and
mysterious planet Easter, Grant assembled as unlikely a crew as the Rim had
ever seen, as he followed a tip by a young StarPort authority secretary that
there was more to one of the ships in mothballs than met the eye....

For technical support, Grant chose Wu-Shun Sanchez, a fanatical tinkerer
whose soft-spoken optimism was often mistaken for an advanced coma. His 
career had been rapid and unswerving in its progress--downward. From a 
promising start as a corporate trainee in Tukera, Sanchez was busted down
to WhiteStar, the Solomani Rim's main sector-wide line, then to the
subsector subsidiary WhiteStar/Concord, then to an interface line, and
finally to HL&G, where his easygoing attitude finally found him a home.
Grant, not much of a yeller himself, found Sanchez a pleasant alternative
to the whiskey-swilling imbeciles who learned engineering etiquette from
James Doohan, and took the tech with him to aid in his selection of a ship.

Security went to Daryavayush O'Connor, a downpowered cyborg warrior
from FSO, the little-publicized and much-feared Free Space Operations
branch of the Imperial Navy. The FSO specializes in operations similar to 
those performed by the Marine Commandos, but are renowned for taking on
missions the Commandos consider too dangerous with equipment they consider
substandard. Everyone, but EVERYONE, in the Imperial military machine 
considers the FSO to be dangerously loose cannons, and with good reason--
they are actively recruited into IRIS upon retirement, if they live that 
long. (Interestingly enough, I predicted IRIS by about six years when I
created the FSO and their parent organization, the Shadow Fleet, in 1979--
but GDW informed me that a secret organization of this nature wouldn't
fly. Harrumph.) O'Connor was a native of Iddamakur, the primitive and vicious 
archipelago once used by the Solomani as a prison camp world. His eye, arms,
throat, and part of his brain were replaced by artificial implants as he
recovered from various war traumas. He was, in a sense, the perfect security
system. 

No one knows where Grant found Kherkhoulloth, the Vargr navigator. Kherk was
a deassigned Imperial Scout, stranded far from the Antares Sector where he
was born. He'd travelled the xboat routes for decades, and had been just 
about everywhere coreward of Capital. Now, he was the ultimate Vargr specimen
- - --scrawny, unwashed, cowardly to a fault, and a recreational drug-user whose
exploits were legendary in their monumental stupidity. But he had one fetish
that outwieghed all others: he was stonecold sober when he plotted courses, 
and could do a Jump-5 from inside an asteroid belt in under three minutes and
miss his target by less than a kilometer every time. Grant hired him.

During the search for a suitable used ship in the Easter shipyards, Grant and 
his team became embroiled in a battle to set up a new xboat route from 
Estigaribbia to Suleiman via Easter, in case the encroaching Solomani broke
the existing routes to the Vegan district. HL&G, attempting to expand its 
influence by tying in an Imperial subcontract for xboat service to the new 
route, was struggling with WhiteStar/Concord and with Myra Belvane's, erm,
PROMISING young niece Tiffany, who were attempting to secure the contract for
themselves. HL&G supported the claims put forth by the nation of Alepfa that
occupied one half of Easter, and the other firms were doing the same for
Zuma, the other half of the planet. The two nations existed on opposite sides
of the thick atmosphere barrier at the planet's equator, and each had its own
starport at its own pole, above the atmosphere in vacuum. There had been
peace for uneasy centuries, but the situation over the lucrative Imperial
contract and the commercial openings it would encourage was raising tensions
to the boiling point. 

Grant solved the problem in spectacular fashion, exposing a plot by 
WhiteStar/Concord to bribe the Zuman government to start a war over the port. 
He was aided in this by a mysterious stranger named M. Iscin Delano Jaeger,
a man who seemed part George Lucas, part Donald Trump. Jaeger, it turned
out, was the first human in history to be officially admitted to the Hiver
Manipulators' Club. His Manipulation, fully documented and on file on Guaran, 
was the war currently in progress on Okefenokee, which he'd started several
years earlier for the filming opportunities it would lend him. Jaeger was
an ex-supervisor at Makhidkarun, a topnotch diplomat, and an expert at
propaganda films and popular culture control, who viewed the chaos in the
Rim as the ultimate laboratory for sheer mayhem. He chose Grant's new ship
as his favored means of getting away from his projects as they exploded.

The team purchased a bizarre ship impounded from a group of pirates who'd 
been captured or killed while shoreside. The Serendipity, as they named her, 
had any number of bad associations with various people around the Rim, and
Grant's company was hounded across the sector by them, until the Serendipity
was impounded by the authorities as stolen goods on the feudal-technocratic
world of Upirzanu, where it had originally been built by Langmuir, personal 
shipwright of Lord Cendryk, the strongest ArcoLord of the world. Along the way,
the Serendipity's crew discovered a floating hulk in space with more than
its share of secrets, stopped a religious war on Vega, and bounced their
ship off a mountain on Ymir (as documented in the first couple of stories).

Their new ship contract was for the Torch, a ship designed as a prototype
for the spoiled oldest son of Lord Corris, Cendryk's greatest rival. The 
Torch was an innocent-looking merchant ship with INCREDIBLE Jump legs; it
could jump the Great Rift unaided, with minimal preparation. (Can you say 
"three Jump-5s without refueling"? Knew you could.) While the Torch gave 
Grant a big edge in the small-package trade, it brought a serious new problem
with it: its payment schedule was backbreaking. Between that and the few
loose ends left from the Serendipity's record, Grant was desperate for the
spare cash he'd need for overhauls. 

One of the most interesting loose ends of the Serendipity's run was Hector, 
the ship's computer. Technically he was just a Model/7 (just?!), but in fact 
he was much, MUCH more than that-- he was a living being. Not a sentient
computer or a synaptic robot-- a living being. As the crew discovered, the
initial discovery of sentient silicon life on the planet Cymbeline was being
exploited in secret by a private firm developing a new generation of 
computers for the Navy. The firm, CymBiotica, was now desperately trying to 
hide all evidence of its research from the occupying Solomani-- including the
third generation of CymBiots, the "grandchildren" of the now-famous sentient
chip 10987 (see Adventure 13, "Signal GK") that resembled their grnadfather 
about as much as a Cray resembled an abacus. Needless to say, Hector was a
big boon to anyone who had him as an employee-- and EVERYONE wanted him.
The only other chip of that type on the loose, nicknamed Marilyn, was being 
transported by a courier who didn't know what he was carrying and who hitched 
a ride on the Torch to evade his pursuers. Although Marilyn went insane and
had to be destroyed, the courier ended up joining the crew. He had several
different identities, and switched from one to the next effortlessly; most of 
the time, he preferred to be known as Dr. Christoph Fell, architectural 
expert and ex-IISS bureaucrat. His other alter egos included the slimy 
tabloid reporter Clovis Cruikshank and Terran private detective Tibor Trench,
not to mention a dozen others....

Driven by encroaching Solomani fleets to seek shelter in the Vegan Autonomous
District, Grant and his tired, careworn crew were approached by a man calling
himself J.J.Cameron, an executive for Ling-Standard Products. Cameron had a
fascinating proposition for Grant: he had learned of a new formulation of 
Dag, a material used in electronics design, that had been developed on Terra
and was now being hidden from the Solomani there. Grant and his team would be 
surgically altered and personality-overlaid into a completely new group of
people, and sent to Terra to recover the formula, or better yet, a sample of
the new Dag. If they succeeded, Cameron promised, he would pay off the lien
on the Torch.

Grant agreed. The process of transformation took months, but when it was 
done, the Torch was hidden in deep space, and a battered old Far Trader,
the IMSS Inexplicable, was doing the smuggler's route along the Rim. Its
captain, James Hudson, had no memory of his previous life, only a personal
secretary-bot that seemed awfully smart for just junk. Accompanied by his
ragtag crew of smugglers, Hudson headed for Terra and a quick buck. Behind
him in the Suleiman cluster, a company he didn't know or care about was
dying in the throes of a tradewar, its CEO nearly killed in a terrorist 
bombing and its VP scrambling for her life....

- - ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

PART 5

Terra, in the Solomani Rim: 1119

	"There it is again."
	Tsogukh stopped and looked at the poster, now beginning to peel
off the wall. He frowned and scratched his head, squinting at the faces
before him, reading the caption for the dozenth time.

			HAVE YOU SEEN THESE MEN?

	Hortense, Luttner and Grant, LIC, will pay a reward of ten
	thousand Imperial Credits to the locator of the crew of the
	IMSS Torch, lost 102-1119 in the Vegan Autonomous District....

	Hudson looked past the huge Vargr's shoulder at the picture
of the man called Khagariilian Grant. Edison just stood there and blinked.
Tchorgin picked at a tooth delicately, trying to hide his boredom. Nyborg
scowled and began scratching the back of his hand again; he claimed it
still itched after the accident on Muan Gwi, oh, months ago. Newton stroked
his beard thoughtfully, his eyes troubled.
	After a long pause, Hudson turned to the others, anger fighting with 
fear on his face. "What IS it about this damn thing...?"

	"Have a seat, Mister Hudson."
	Hudson staggered across the room, propelled roughly by a shove from
the guard, and flopped into the chair. He summoned up the strength for a 
scowl at the pudgy, moon-faced man across the desk from him, and rasped, "What 
the hell gives you the right to do this to us? We're clean! We aren't...."
	"Save it, Captain. I'm not interested." The man's smile flickered for 
a moment, and he cocked an eyebrow at the door. The guard quietly withdrew,
taking the hint. The door shut with a click. 
	Hudson surveyed the room. It was obviously bugproofed and 
soundproofed; the man facing him was obese, his chins bulging out over the 
collar of the expensive business suit, grey and black except for a spot of 
color at the lapel. Hudson tried to focus on it, but his eyes weren't 
cooperating....
	"Cigarette?" A neatly-slit packet was waved before Hudson. He frowned 
at it, suddenly unsure. I don't smoke, he thought. Do I?
	"I...don't smoke."
	"You used to smoke like a chimney, old friend," was the startling 
reply. "Sure you won't change your mind?"
	Hudson shrugged and took a cigarette from the pack. The man across 
the desk lit it for him; he took a deep lungful of the smoke, held it, 
exhaled. Suddenly he saw the cold pig-black eyes regarding him carefully, 
and forced himself to cough, gasp for breath. "Foul habit," he managed.
	"Give it up, John. You're not fooling anyone."
	Hudson tried to poke a hole in the dark stare with his own eyes.
	John?
	"John?"
	"John." The oily voice held satisfaction. "Shall I spell it out for 
you, or would you like to do that yourself and save me the trouble?"
	"I have no idea what you're talking about," Hudson managed, the
cigarette forgotten between his fingers and scorching the arm of the chair.
"My name's Jim, not John. James Hudson. I'm a chartered merchant on a run
from Ys to--"
	"To Hell, John. Straight to Hell." Meaty hands slapped the desktop
as the mountain of flesh scrambled upright. "'Down, down to Hell; and say
I sent thee thither.' Shakespeare." A horrible smile creased the fat face.
"I don't know why you picked here and now to show up again, and how you chose 
that gang of freaks you call an ops team, but I am NOT going to let an 
opportunity like this pass me by." 
	"What opportunity? What are you talking about---Sonderberg?" Hudson's
mouth closed with a snap. Who?
	"Ah, so you DO remember me," the fat man nodded. "Excellent. It'll 
make killing you so much more pleasurable. It's ALREADY practical beyond 
belief, but now at least I can enjoy it."
	"Look, I DON'T remember you! I have NO IDEA who you are! That name
just, well, I don't know, just kind of popped into my head!" Hudson felt the
sweat trickle down his temple and across the stubble on his cheek. Something 
was very, VERY wrong....
	"Of course it did," Sonderberg soothed. "Of COURSE it did. Your 
overlay was a pretty shoddy one, John-- just like the others'. You must have 
really scraped the bottom of the barrel when you did your recruiting! It's
sort of a pity you're all going to have to vanish together-- it would be
interesting to see what sorts of songs Chandra and Shevek could sing. But
where, where, WHERE did you dig up RICE, for God's sake? Or that Corris
brat? And the VARGR-- you couldn't even get one with his BRAIN INTACT?!"
	Hudson's mind was whirling. Shevek? Rice? Who was-- what was--
what was that about the brain? Intact? But he was OFF drugs, Tsogukh never
DID drugs-- WHO was off drugs? And Corris--where'd he hear THAT before--
Corris, the Lord, the Keeper of the Flame--of the Flame--of the....
	Torch?
	Hudson's mouth worked like a fish's, but no sound came out. His eyes 
began to glaze over.
	Sonderberg scowled. "Hmm, the overlay must be stubborn. Normally when 
they crack, they peel right up. Okay, fine," he sighed, walking around the 
desk and facing Hudson, who shrank back in his chair at the big man's 
approach. "Let me help you along, then." He poked a surprisingly strong 
finger into Hudson's chest. "Your real name is John Becker. JOHN BECKER!"
That last was a cry of triumph. "And you are about to suffer a fatal 
accident, trying to escape from me-- and my job, YOUR JOB, will be as 
permanent as anything ever gets in this floating world we live in...."
	Hudson wasn't hearing him any more. His terrified gaze was locked
on the huge man's lapel pin, a blood-red circle-and-cross-
	JOHN BECKER. SOLOMANI SECURITY. IDENT CODE ASB8-93OJ-HGN4...4....
	My God, Grant thought in a panic. HOW MANY OF ME *ARE* THERE?!
	He fainted dead away.

TO BE CONTINUED


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2744
Date:     Fri, 9 Aug 91 9:02:57 EDT
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  (2742) MT Starship Combat rules...

In your letter dated Thu, 8 Aug 91 17:16:36 -0700, you wrote:
> 
> 	This is probably whistling in the dark, but I have some questions for
> anyone who has actually used the MT starship combat rules, or someone
> with a recent printing of them (if the bugs were fixed).
> 
> 	I've applied the erratta changes to combat tables, but have a few
> questions about the Explanation of Damage Results.
> 	One: do the 'crew sections' rules work, and if so, why? 8-) (they don't
> make any sense to me, esp. in terms of damage)

Well, I'll admit that they don't make much sense to me either--you realize that
your ship basically gets one crew hit point for each thousand tons of hull
displacement.  The actual number of crewmen per thousand tons of hull is
irrelevant.  This is a little more intuitive to me than the old High Guard
'exponential' crew factor, where each crew hit wiped out 90% of the remaining
crew.  Ships dead of crew radiation overdose were not uncommon in High Guard
combat.

> 	Two: For damage to Power Plant, the rules say 'reduce UCP factor',
> obviously a direct copy from High Guard.  Unfortunately, the craft design
> rules no longer _use_ the UCP for powerplant rating or design.  How do you
> handle PP damage?

You don't have both sets of official errata?  In the second one (I think) is
the part that says that you lose 10% of the 'disabled' damage point value
of the power plant for each hit, with a minimum of two points...so a plant
with a value of 4/8 would be disabled by 2 hits and destroyed by 4 more, but
a plant with a value of 600/1200 would be disabled by ten hits, and destroyed
by twenty more.

Personally, for both of these I would like to see things replaced by absolute
rather than relative damages.  (i.e. Crew-1 kills 10 people, if you've got lots
you're OK, and Power-1 does 4 points of damage, so the first example ship above
is scrod if hit.)  For that matter, I'd change things as they are now to say
that a Weapons-1 hit destroys a turret rather than a battery...with dynamically
reconfigurable controls, how can one hit wipe out ten turrets on a large ship,
or just knock out one weapon in a triple beam,sand and missile turret on a
small ship?

I can tell by your questions that you haven't looked at critical hits yet?
What is a bridge hit in the new game, and how do I designate the fact that
my ship has an auxiliary bridge?  Why should a computer system in triplicate
for redundant safety have all installations co-located so that a single
computer critical hit wipes out _all_ computer installations?  I think there
are a couple more of these, but I haven't got my rules with me today.

Rob


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2745
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re:  (2742) MT Starship Combat rules...
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 91 15:41:54 MET DST

>   = Robert S. Dean
> > = George William Herbert

> > 	I've applied the erratta changes to combat tables, but have a few
> > questions about the Explanation of Damage Results.
> > 	One: do the 'crew sections' rules work, and if so, why? 8-) (they don't
> > make any sense to me, esp. in terms of damage)

  I suspect that they are a way of representing the 'density' of the crew.
A ship with a high density of crew will loose more crew from each hit simply
because more crew is 'in harms way'.

  As for the effects of lost crew, the first effect IMHO should be large 
penalties for damage control (wich don't really appear in MegaT so how could
it be penalized:(. This also highlights a related problem with the way MegaT
handles crew and similar things.
  MegaT seems to assume that all members of the crew has their own little 
console with a cozy acceleration couch somewhere in the ship. I believe that we
should factor in watches (each person works only 8 hours per day) and damage
control crew (those 'off duty') in this. Only about one third of the crew has
a 'real' crew station and the rest are usually idle, except when at battle-
stations when they serve as the damage control crew.

  In combat, this should mean that the ship could operate without penalty until
it was below 1/3rd crew, but that damage control and repairs would begin to
suffer immediately.
  (This is also my resoning behind that I count each robot as three crew: robots
are active around the clock. But without the other 2/3rds of the normal crew as
damage control crew, you better hope nothing breaks!)

> > 	Two: For damage to Power Plant, the rules say 'reduce UCP factor',
> > obviously a direct copy from High Guard.  Unfortunately, the craft design
> > rules no longer _use_ the UCP for powerplant rating or design.  How do you
> > handle PP damage?
> 
> You don't have both sets of official errata?  In the second one (I think) is
> the part that says that you lose 10% of the 'disabled' damage point value
> of the power plant for each hit, with a minimum of two points...so a plant
> with a value of 4/8 would be disabled by 2 hits and destroyed by 4 more, but
> a plant with a value of 600/1200 would be disabled by ten hits, and destroyed
> by twenty more.

  The net result is that all plants over a certain size will take the same 
number of hits to destroy, regardless of how large the battery hitting and how
large the drive hit:(

> Personally, for both of these I would like to see things replaced by absolute
> rather than relative damages.  (i.e. Crew-1 kills 10 people, if you've got lots
> you're OK, and Power-1 does 4 points of damage, so the first example ship above
> is scrod if hit.)

  I agree with this. I am thinking along similar lines with drive damage in
Rebel Guard, shortly it is:
  A minor critical hit on the manuever drive resulting from a hit by a battery 
that did 1000 damage points will do the minimum of full inoperable damage for
the drive and 1000 damage points.
  The performance of the drive is degraded with full performance on zero damage
and zero performance at inoperable damage (ie a 100/200 5G manuever drive will
loose one G for every 20 points of damage).

  I'm in two minds on wether using full inoperable or half inoperable as 
maximum, or maybe base it on the ships displacement.

> Rob

- - -bertil-
- - -- 
"Med ett sjyst ja"rnro"r sla^r man va"rlden med ha"pnad!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2746
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1991 13:16 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Auxillury bridges

The subject came up how does one build an auxillury bridge
in MegaTrav.

In my Azhanti High Lightning design I had 2 bridges.  To do this I
doubled the number of control panels, and noted that there was an
aux bridge.  It went something like this:

LrgHoloDisplay=10*2, HoloHUD=45*2, HoloLink=90*2, Aux Bridge installed.
I don't think we have to double the number of computers, as you didn't
have to in high guard.
That is how I would (did, and will) build the aux bridge.

Scott Kellogg
Beware...  The Horde is coming....

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2747
Date:     Fri, 9 Aug 91 14:36:29 EDT
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  (2742) MT Starship Combat rules...

Scott Kellogg writes:
> Auxiliary Bridges:
> On my Azhanti High Lightning conversion design, there are two bridges.
> 
> To accomplish this I doubled the number of HUDs, HoloLink panels,
> and Large Holo displays.
> It went something like this:
> LrgHoloDisp=10*2, HoloHUD=20*2, HoloLink=200*2, AuxBridge installed
> 
> I don't think we need double the number of computers, because in
> High Guard we didn't have to for the aux bridge.
> That's how I would (did, and will) do it in future.

You can if you like, but it seems to me that you are making the peculiar
assumption here that every control panel on the ship is concentrated on
the bridge.  No controls on the engines, or near the gun mounts?  If you've
got SOM (which you've quoted) it looks like dynamic reconfiguration ought
to let you get by without a physical bridge, which would certainly make a
'bridge hit' that didn't involve knocking out the entire distributed 
computer network a bit problematic.

Personally, my inclination at the moment is toward rewriting the critical
hits table and replacing Bridge Destroyed with something like "Crew-1, 
One Computer Destroyed, One of Each Comm and Sensor System Destroyed".

Rob Dean



------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2748
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 1991 15:51:53 -0600
From: cmaddox@imsa.edu
Subject: Proposed article about TML

[Or...  TML visits the trade rags.  This is a collaborative effort
between Chuck Maddox and myself, but we are sincerely interested in what
others on the TML have to contribute.  Please respond to *both* of us,
or the TML at large, if you have input on this project.  At the outset,
let me thank at least Rob Dean for helping for planting a tiny seed
which is now growing into a bigger seed :-) -- James]

Being a new addition to the TML it had occured to me that more people
should know about TML and how to subscribe.  I have been on internet for
about a year and did not know that a Traveller Mailing list existed until
recently.  I sent a message to James proposing to write an article for
Challenge or MegaTraveller Journal.  James responded saying that he would
be interested in co-authoring such an article.  

What we decided would be best would be an article that would inform people
of the basics and lead them to where they can find more information.  What
we are shooting for is a short focused article.  What follows is an outline
proposed by James:

>
>		Traveller Electronic Mailing List
>
>			      by
>			 Charles Maddox
>			James T. Perkins
>
>	Where can forty-five Traveller fans play in the same
>	game, share free Traveller software, tap hundreds of
>	vehicle designs from garbage trucks to Meson Cruisers,
>	and make new friends, all at the same time? No where
>	else but the USENET Traveller Electronic Mailing List
>	(TML).
>
>	What the basic premise is
>	
>	A little history...
>		how it started
>
>	A few stats... (what it is now)
>		how many members
>		level of member involvement (what source materials they have)
>
>	What special interest groups exist...
>		PBEM
>		CAT
>		TDR
>		Historians
>		Vehicles
>
>	Archives
>		What there is
>		How to get it
>			FTP (sunbane only for now)
>				sidebar: How to use ftp
>			diskette (metolius)
>			email (metolius)
>
>	How to subscribe
>
>	Basic ground rules
>		politeness, etc.
>		be prepared for loud volume :-)
>

We would like your comments and suggestions.  I will be at Gencon Saturday
August the 10th and hope to be able to talk to staffers of both magazines.

Thanks,

Chuck

Chuck Maddox    	       	       	       	       	cmaddox@imsa.edu
Computer Technician     	       	       	       	(708)-801-6015    	
Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

From jamesp@metolius.wr.tek.com Thu Aug 15 01:29:27 1991
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To: dan@engrg.uwo.ca (Dan Corrin), bfwong@ocf.berkeley.edu (Raven Blackburn),
        anthony@cs.pitt.edu (Michael Anthony Kapolka),
        mcknight@f104.n170.z1.fidonet.org (Chuck McKnight),
        fantasci!traveller@engrg.uwo.ca (Joseph "Jo" E Poplawski),
        jamesp@metolius.wr.tek.com (James T. Perkins)
Subject: TML Bundle #226: Msgs 2749-2759
Reply-To: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Precedence: bulk
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 91 21:00:15 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.wr.tek.com>
Status: R


TML Bundles come from the archives of the Traveller Mailing List,
maintained by James Perkins, traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed Aug 14 21:00:10 PDT 1991
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #226: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
2749  09-Aug-91 Mike.Metlay@ORGAN And it just gets weirder.... << Welcome to Pa
2750  09-Aug-91 George William He Re: (2742) MT Starship Combat rules... << Cri
2751  10-Aug-91 samsung!quest.ath RE: Complaints about Agility << Those unhappy
2752  10-Aug-91 samsung!quest.ath Noble PCs << I'm running a play-by-BBS game o
2753  11-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Gyroscopic Attitude Control Systems << Juerge
2754  12-Aug-91 Adrian Hurt       Re: Revised Agility Calculations << KELLOGG@d
2755  12-Aug-91 carson@tron.bwi.W Re: (2748) Proposed article about TML << Make
2756  12-Aug-91 Mike.Metlay@ORGAN Nobility in Traveller << A very good article 
2757  12-Aug-91 SULAIMAN@ecs.umas Agility..... << >Ok, High Guard functioned li
2758  12-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au The SHADO fleet (TL8 System Defence) << Hi, S
2759  12-Aug-91 George William He re: nobles << Actually, (contrary to Metlay's

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2749
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 91 17:42:23 EDT
From: Mike.Metlay@ORGAN.MUSIC.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: And it just gets weirder....


Welcome to Part 6 of the ongoing saga of Grant and Company. If you think
things are confusing NOW, you should have been here to see these poor guys
trying to roleplay it! |->

metlay

- - --------------------------------------------------------------------------

PART 6

Terra, mid-1119

	"Captain?"
	Grant opened his eyes slowly. Two strangers were leaning over
him. One was a man in his mid-20s, somehow foppish even in a nondescript 
prison coverall; the other was a rail-thin, immaculately shaven fellow
with thinning blonde hair and--
	Lord Corris's son. The family portrait in the shipwright's hall!
	No. No. That wasn't it. A noble, but not a Corris--a Tchorgin.
Yes. Mikhail Tchorgin, professional hostage. And Edison, professional
bitgeek. Hudson's bitgeek. MY bitgeek....
	Grant winced. "Ouch. This hurts my head...."
	"You and everyone else, Captain." The muscular blonde god got slowly
up from his seated position at the cell door and stalked over to Grant. He
was perfect, Grant noted absently. Nothing missing. Nothing.
	"How do you feel?" Nyborg's voice was cool.
	"Like my brain's been put through a juicer." Grant sat up, tried
to get to his feet, stopped. He looked around him slowly, suspicions flaring
and dying and flaring up again. Edison regarded him carefully, Tchorgin with 
a look of mild concern, Nyborg with a paranoid scowl. 'Captain,' they'd said. 
Captain WHO? 
	Edison made eye contact, then flicked his gaze upward for a moment. 
Grant followed the glance. His brow furrowed as he saw the tiny hole in the
ceiling above him. Oho, he thought. No wonder they're playing it crafty.
	He looked past Tchorgin, to where Newton was crouched over Tsogukh.
The huge Vargr was curled into a fetal position, rocking back and forth 
gently and whimpering softly in a language Grant didn't recognize as the
Transform dialect of Vuakedh that Kherkhoulloth spoke....
	He strode over to the pair, pushing gently past Tchorgin, who gave 
him a sympathetic pat on the shoulder as he passed. "How is he?"
	Newton looked up, hair in his eyes. He started to speak, looked 
annoyed, flicked the hair clumsily back from his face. "Pretty bad, sir."
	Grant seized on the simple gesture like a hawk on a ferret. He's not
used to having hair, he thought with grim satisfaction. Newton's got a full
head of hair-- but Fell DOESN'T! More and more interesting.
	"They didn't even work him over for as long as they did the rest of 
us," Fell (Newton?) continued. "They brought him back here after only a few 
minutes, and the med orderly looked scareder than hell. He's been in this
shape ever since.... I can't get through to him at all."
	"Lovely, just LOVELY." Grant found the Hudsonism came easily to mind.
He looked at Fell carefully. "And how about YOU?"
	"I think," Fell said, weighing each word carefully, "I stood up under
this much better than the rest of you. I have a certain natural resistance to
this kind of punishment. And after all, Captain, we should be grateful we
were only worked on by rank amateurs-- the Zhodani would have wrung us out
and hung us up to dry by now." 
	"True enough." Grant got up and stretched, yawning. "So has anyone
been able to piece together what happened?"
	"I remember landing and trying to unload our cargo...." Newton's 
voice was hesitant.
	"We were accosted by StarPort Authority troopers and forced at 
gunpoint into a lockup-van," Tchorgin sniffed. "Plebeians."
	"They put us in a cell, and one by one they started taking people
out, starting with you, Captain," Nyborg continued grimly. "And everyone came 
back feeling like, well, like...."
	"Pling pling pling...."
	Grant turned around slowly. Edison was gazing vacantly into space;
he was softly singing a little song, just three notes over and over.
	"Pling pling pling, pling pling pling--"
	"Edison!" Hudson seized his arm roughly. "You gone nuts on us?"
	"Hm?" Edison's eyes focussed slowly on his commanding officer. "Uh, 
no sir. I was either (a) daydreaming (b) exhausted (c) suffering from as yet
unquantified aftereffects of the interrogation."
	"If that's what it was," Tchorgin snapped irritably. "What sort of 
interrogation doesn't involve asking any questions?"
	"One where they don't need to talk to you," Nyborg said quietly.
"If they suspected some kind of--"
	He was cut off by a yelp of sudden terror from the floor. Tsogukh 
uncurled from his huddled position abruptly and looked about him, seemingly
not recognizing any of the faces around him. He backed into a corner, holding 
up a hand as if to ward off a blow and whimpering in a garbled mixture of 
Vuakedh, Galanglic, and unintelligible gibberish.
	"O no please bahyakhta eenay Vfkhayikh arrrghafthaengzak I promise
kyulyolvai aenrraghz oun kokaasha eegh Urzaeng faeng faeng don' hurt me...."
	"Hey, hey, hey," Fell soothed, leaning down near the terrified Vargr,
"Don't be afraid. It's US. Your FRIENDS, remember?" He began pointing to 
faces. "Captain Hudson, Edison, Nyborg, Tchorgin...."
	"SHEVEK!" The word burst out of Tsogukh's throat in a shriek, and he
threw himself forward and wrapped his arms around Fell's knees, his sobs 
redoubling in strength.
	The others merely looked confused, but Grant's eyes narrowed. Shevek.
What was it Sonderberg had said.... 'It'd be interesting to see what sort of 
a song Shevek would sing.' Another piece of the puzzle?
	"Shhhh...." Fell patted the crying alien's fur uncomfortably. "You 
know me, old buddy. Newton. Remember, Tsogukh?"
	The Vargr sat bolt upright as if stabbed. His eyes focussed into 
killing slits. "TSSSSSSOHHHHHHHHHH-----" He leapt to his feet, fists 
clenched. "--GUKH!" He shhok himself from muzzle to tail as if drying himself 
off, and looked around him suspiciously. His voice dropped an octave.
	"Well, what are YOU all staring at?"
	Newton sighed in relief. "Thought we'd lost you there for a minute,
friend," he said easily. "You okay?"
	"NO, I'm not okay!" Tsogukh began to pace the small cell angrily. 
"What the hell did they do to me? Was it drugs? Torture? WHAT? I'm so messed 
up I can't even remember my own name...."
	"You won't have to worry about that for much longer."
	Everyone whirled at the new voice from beyond the door. Through the
viewslit, they could just glimpse a helmeted head outside in the hall.
	"Time to go, gen'l'men. Any false moves, you die painful instead of 
clean. Got that?" The door swung open, and a burly SolSec guard in combat
armor strode into the room, Gauss pistol at the ready. "Turn away from me, 
all of you, and hands behind backs to be cuffed. I can cuff you one-handed, 
and I'll shoot if you give me any guff." 
	Tsogukh growled and coiled himself for a spring.
	"Ease OFF!" Hudson's voice nearly cracked with suppressed terror. 
"Stupid furball, you'll get us ALL killed!"
	Tsogukh's ears went back against his skull, and he slowly turned 
and put his hands behind his back. "Coward," he muttered under his breath.
	One by one, the cuffs were put on. Grant tested his gingerly, hoping 
that the circulation wouldn't be cut off from his hands.
	They loosened slightly. A ratchet clicked, almost inaudibly. 
	Jammed open!
	Grant stopped moving his arms, and looked over his shoulder at 
Edison, who was suddenly concentrating hard on something only he could see.
Fell was looking down at the floor in front of him. Feeling the Captain's
eyes upon him, he twitched an eyelid in a brief wink. 
	As they were herded out of the cell and down the sterile hallway,
Grant made eye contact with the guard, who regarded him carefully.
	"So what happens to us now?"
	"You're gonna get blown up trying to escape," the guard grinned back 
at him. "Back to the starport, back in your ship, liftoff to a hundred 
meters, and WHAMMO! Taken out by the defense batteries! No evidence left to 
sift through, nothin'. Neat as neat can be."
	"Delightful," Nyborg sighed. They piled down a flight of metal stairs 
and out of a thick security door. The heat hit them like a blanket of fire,
sweat springing out on their faces in an instant. Tsogukh began to pant.
	The door opened out on a courtyard. The blazing sun had raised the 
temperature in the open court to the point where the air rippled and made
vision difficult. An unmarked police van was floating at the gate, and they 
were herded aboard by the guard, who sat down next to them with his pistol 
covering them all loosely. After a moment, another guard came in and sat down 
next to them, a Gauss rifle slung over his shoulder and a wary look on his 
face. The first guard looked at him, then at Grant, and gave a tiny shake of 
his head. 
	The sliding door slammed shut on them, and through the glass 
partition up front they saw a driver take his place at the controls, and the
gravid form of Agent Sonderberg huff in beside him. Sonderberg turned and 
waved into the back compartment at Grant, who pointedly ignored him. The 
agent grinned, and picked up an intercom mike from the dash.
	"Just a few more minutes, Becker."
	Damn right, Becker thought grimly. You fat bag of cancer, I'm gonna 
give YOU 'Chief Special Operative in the Terra Theater'! Take MY job, will 
you? Just a few more minutes....
	The van lurched into motion. No one spoke during the brief period it
took to cross the threshold and speed across the starport to where the 
Inexplicable was docked. The first guard relaxed after a moment, letting his 
gun hand rest on his knee, within reach of Nyborg. His eyes closed.
	"Pay attention, idiot," the second guard snarled.
	"Shaddup," was the yawned reply. "They're cuffed, ain't they?"
	Grant was watching through the front window as best he could. Down 
the service road and through the milling crowds, across the main thorofare, 
around a corner...and there before them was the blast shield for Landing
Pad 7-3-26. The automatic doors slid open exposing the long tunnel through
the shield to the inner landing area. Hudson did some fast math in his head.
Twenty kilometers per hour, say ten meters of tunnel--two seconds. It was 
going to have to be perfect. 
	Nyborg yawned and stretched, gathering his legs under his bench seat.
Tsogukh tried to scratch one hind leg with the other. Fell sat upright, 
trying to see their destination as the van glided smoothly into the mouth of 
the tunnel.
	Grant pulled convulsively on his cuffs. For a harrowing instant, the 
ratchet seemed to catch, then pulled free with a soft zipping noise. Beside 
him, the first guard yelled, "Hey, what the--"
	Simultaneously there was a loud thud and an "Oof!" From the other 
guard. Close on that was a veritable cacaphony of yells, growls, grunts, and 
scuffling noises. Sonderberg looked back through the window, and scowled in
frustration as the reflected sunlight from the tunnel's mouth on the glass
obscured his vision. He reached behind him blindly for the dash.
	Becker's voice was tight. "Nyborg! Door lock!"
	There was the thunk of a gauss shot, and the sliding door slammed 
open. Becker grabbed the door frame and swung himself in a tight arc around 
the frame, grabbing and pulling open the passenger door. At that moment the 
van burst out into the blazing sun again, almost in the shadow of the 
Inexplicable, and the thin man and the fat were rolling in the sand.
	The van screeched to a halt. The first guard was thrown free. 
Scrambling to his feet, he hissed to Fell, who was crawling after him,
"WNRK! Yell it, don't spell it!" And with that, he was sprinting for the
tunnel mouth. 
	Nyborg and Edison vaulted from the van, sprinting for the ship. 
Becker had managed to get free of Sonderberg and was staggering up the ramp,
his rival in hot pursuit. Suddenly a gleaming spherical object appeared in 
the open hatchway, hovering for a moment and then swooping down the ramp. It 
was the secretary-bot Hudson had nicknamed Hector.
	The sight of the familiar robot made Hudson pause for a moment, and 
Sonderberg took advantage of the delay, charging up and grabbing him in a 
hammerlock. "Got you!" he gurgled, panting and beet-red with exertion. "Never
get away!" 
	"Get clear, GET CLEAR!" Hector shrieked, bowling Edison over. 
"Someone's initiated an automatic takeoff sequence! We only have a few 
seconds--"
	"YOW!" Edison wasn't a gambling man. He skidded to a halt and turned 
back to the van, only in time to see the senseless body of the driver crumple 
to the sand. Fell leaped behind the wheel, and the van spun up off the ground
and into motion, Tchorgin kicking the dead guard out of the back and Tsogukh 
scrambling to get onto the roof. Edison leaped for the van, as the 
Inexplicable's thruster plates suddenly burst into agonizing radiance and the 
rusty old freighter began to lift off the ground, Becker and Sonderberg still
grappling madly on the rocking, shaking gangplank. With a mighty heave, 
Nyborg leaped and grabbed hold of the end of the ramp just before it rose out 
of reach. In a few seconds, he had gained the ramp's surface, and charged 
into the fray.
	Sonderberg looked up, just in time to scream in agony as a round from 
the Gauss pistol ripped into his shoulder. He let go of Becker's throat, and
the semiconscious agent rolled down the ramp and off the end, plummeting 
toward the ground below.
	"GOTCHA!" Tsogukh's powerful haunches flexed under the sudden strain
as he caught his commander's limp body in his arms. "DRIVE, FELL!"
	The van spun away into the blast tunnel, unnoticed as Sonderberg and
Nyborg faced off on the pitching ramp. Nyborg looked over his shoulder. They 
were ten meters high and rising. Any second now, the defense batteries would
open fire....
	"Nyborg, for God's SAKE!" Sonderberg sobbed, his pudgy fingers 
clutching at the empty air that had been his worst rival's throat a moment 
ago. "You're a Loyalist! And so was CHANDRA! It doesn't have to be like 
this-- we can HEAL you...!"
	The smile that answered him was calm and self-assured. "I am 
Daryavayush Michael O'Connor, FSO, and native of Iddamakur. Your death will 
be the most important of my career. I'm sorry that I can't take credit for 
it...."
	Sonderberg sank to his knees, the blood loss making him dizzy. "Uh?"
	"You're about to be killed by the attack YOU ORDERED." They were 
above the wall now. Far away, O'Connor saw the plumes of the missile 
launchers as they fired. He shook his head in disbelief. 
	"Another shining example of SolSec efficiency."
	They were the last words he ever spoke.

	The van shot flailing out of the blast tunnel and shot across the
service alleyway, rounding the bend past the neighboring wall a bare second
before the blast sent a column of roaring fire down the tunnel after it. The
flash lit up the sky to impossible brightness, and the crash and roar of the
Inexplicable's funeral pyre mingled with the screams in the crowd as burning
debris rained down on the port. 
	"This is a fine set of circumstances," Edison remarked as the van 
bucked under the blast wave. "We are now (1) on a foreign planet under 
hostile control (2) wanted by the police, SPA, and SolSec (3) minus our best 
combat expert (4) mentally in less than peak form (5) penniless (6) without
identification papers (7) minus our only transportation off-planet (8) 
dressed in prison garb (9) exhausted (10) hungry and (11) apparently in 
no position to even attempt considering intelligent options as to our next 
move."
	"No problem," Tchorgin smiled. Or was it Jaeger?

TO BE CONTINUED

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2750
Date: Fri, 9 Aug 91 17:28:40 -0700
From: George William Herbert <gwh@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Re:  (2742) MT Starship Combat rules...

Critical Hits for the most part didn't worry me that much.  A bridge hit is
about the same as it was before...same effects.  If you bothered to design in
a second bridge (not that anyone is, as far as I can see) to your MT ship, it
would nullify one bridge hit.
	I also don't know about undoing the weapon hit/battery correspondence.
Admittedly, it's a not well supported artificiality, but it will ruin some
game mechanics and slow things down a lot as you figure out how reconfiguring
weapons can be done... 8-)

	And unfortunately I seem to have missed the second set of erratta.  If
someone would copy them and mail them to me, I'd be much appreciative...
(will pay postage if you like 8-)

- - -george

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2751
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 91 21:33:19 CST
From: samsung!quest.athenanet.com!dominic@uunet.UU.NET (Dominic Duvall)
Subject: RE: Complaints about Agility

Those unhappy with agility in MegaTraveller (or any other aspect of the
rules) are STRONGLY urged to sign up for GEnie and visit the MegaTraveller
category of the role-playing games forum.  Those who developed MT and
who are working on it have a VERY active presence there, so that would
be a good place to (a) hear their explanations for why agility (or whatever)
is handled the way it is, and (b) make your suggestions on better ways
to handle it.

GEnie is also the home of HIWG (History of the Imperium Working Group),
a fan-based resource development group.

Dominic Duvall			 | uunet!nstar!pallas!quest!dominic
The Quest, BBS for F&SF and RPGs | dominic@quest.athenanet.com
(217) 546-7608, 3/12/2400 baud   |

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2752
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 91 21:51:27 CST
From: samsung!quest.athenanet.com!dominic@uunet.UU.NET (Dominic Duvall)
Subject: Noble PCs

I'm running a play-by-BBS game of MegaTraveller in which one of the
characters is a duke and another is a duchess.

Does anyone have any information about nobility in the Imperium?  In
particular, how involved is a duke or duchess in actually running their
dukedom or duchy?  If they decided to go galloping across the galaxy,
would they be chastised for neglecting their duties?  Or would it be quite
common to leave the operation of the dukedom or duchy in the hands of some
type of administrator?

What about special rights of these high nobles?  When visiting a planet
with a high law level, can they expect to be allowed to keep their weapons?

How much control, if any, do they have over planets within their dukedom
or duchy?  As I understand it, the Imperium merely rules the space BETWEEN
the stars, rather than the planets themselves.

How much access could they get to meeting with government leaders on
planets outside of their area?

How widely known is a duke or duchess outside of their area?  If they are
out in public on a planet a couple of subsectors away from their home, would
people be pointing and saying, "Look, it's Duke So-and-So"?  If they arrive
at a planet, will they be met at the starport by an official delegation, a
brass band, and a flock of reporters?

How much financial power would you say a duke or duchess typically has?  The
income from the pension as given in the MT rules just doesn't seem high
enough for someone who in theory rules such a vast area.  At the same time,
however, I'm somewhat reluctant to tell them they have vast resources at
their disposal, as that would tend to upset game balance.

Dominic Duvall			 | uunet!nstar!pallas!quest!dominic
The Quest, BBS for F&SF and RPGs | dominic@quest.athenanet.com
(217) 546-7608, 3/12/2400 baud   |

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2753
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1991 17:33 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Gyroscopic Attitude Control Systems

Juergen Kirsch writes of the destructive potential of the gyroscopic
control system.

Frankly, who ever wrote up that idea for traveller didn't think about it
for too long.

The Starship Operators manual says these things are used at speeds
approaching 1 million RPM.  Ok, lets assume a gyro 1 meter in radius, and
say 1000 kilograms.  (sound reasonable?)
The centifugal force felt at the edge of this ring (1 million RPM) is some
thing about 11 billion+ times the force of gravity.
Nothing, Not even an ancient artifact will hold up to that.
Ok, Now, what about the potential energy of this gyro?  Well, according
to the old back of the envelope it has the equivalent energy of a
1.22 kiloton bomb.  According to the S.O.M. these things are kept at
"near" vacuum, at the center of mass of the ship.
	Well, who out there wants a 1.22 kiloton bomb at the spine of
their ship?  The manual talks about the extensive precautions needed to
protect the ship from the gyro.  Jettison systems, and an 'Inertial
Braking system' which reduces the energy of the gyro.
The precautions sound shakey at best and wrecklessly dangerous at worst.
If the gyro started to have problems, It would be a danger to the ship in
1/100,000 of a second.  No Warning.  If a frictionless bearing started to
go out, it would tear itself to ribbons before the computer ever knew what
hit it.  And when that gyro hits a structural member it will fly apart
under 11 billion G's and destroy the ship totally.  The center of mass of the
ship is going to be where the spinal mount (if any) runs, and it will
probably be where the keel of the ship runs as well.  One little mishap
and your ship snaps in half.
	As to the advantages of the gyro.  Frankly, I don't see any.
They have gone to great lengths in the Manual to describe how the
thrust from the main drive is articulated sufficiently so that the
classic 1G ship can take off vertically.  Are they trying to say that
turning on axis is more difficult than hovering?  It makes no sence.

Add to the fact that the gyro is at the center of mass of the ship.
In order to turn the ship you will have to exert enourmous force on
the gyro.  The thrusters have a much larger lever arm and it will be
MUCH easier.  The problem is analogous to turning a bolt with your
bare hands and turning the same bolt with a twenty meter long
wrench.

Looking back on what I said, computers ought to be fast enough to recognize
a problem in the gyro.  But they won't be able to do much about it, and if
something goes wrong with the safety systems, you are DEAD.  A braking system
has to absorb 1.22 kilotons worth of energy to prevent disaster.

Scott Kellogg

Actually, I don't like the sound of the inertial braking system either,
It makes it sound as though it absorbs the inertia.  This sounds to much
like a physics nullifier to me.  I always thought of inertial compensators
as grav plates which increase or decrease in output dependant upon the
acceleration produced by the drives.

Mr. Scott

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2754
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Revised Agility Calculations
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 91 9:40:03 BST

KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
> "Excess Power": Is the amount of power left over after all systems have
> been powered (Sensors, Weapons, Drives, Environ, Comm, etc. etc.)

In any ship I designed under High Guard, "excess power" by your definition
was zero, or slightly positive - I tried to make the power plant just capable
of powering everything on the ship, usually adding a few more lasers if I had
spare power available.

My problem is that I have too much experience in High Guard, and keep
forgetting that some people (not you, Scott! :-) are trying to design
MT ships with no prior knowledge of High Guard.  I suspect that the MT
authors have the same problem.

> 		(Power req for maneuver drive + "excess" Power)
> Agility=	-----------------------------------------------*10
> 			Loaded Weight

This could finally give the ship's engineer something interesting to do in
combat - some sort of task roll to arrange the power distribution to the
various systems demanding power.  Let's see ...

To distribute power among the ship's systems:
Routine, Starship Engineering, INT, 6 seconds
Referee: Exceptional success means that the engineer has 1% more power
available than the power plant's normal output; perhaps he has been clever
with the timing (route power to the sensors, then route power to the weapons)
or perhaps he has managed to coax the power plant into operating a little
more efficiently.  Exceptional failure means that the engineer has 1% less
power to use; he has been clumsy, or the power plant is playing up.


I leave it to experienced MT referees to alter such things as difficulty level,
time increment and results of exceptional success/failure.

"Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil> writes:
> 
> > > Agility may not exceed maneuver drive rating.
> > > (No more agility=6 1-G drive ships...)
> > 
> > Perhaps they should have stated that explicitly.  This was certainly the
> > case in High Guard.
> 
> Ah! But they didn't, because they didn't intend for it to be the same.  That's
> why we've got Joe Fugate explaining that the agility rating is your ability
> to 'alter your heading' for pity's sake, rather than the ability to alter
> your maneuver vector.  Since you can rotate all you want (with three degrees
> of freedom, no less) and still end up presenting a 'ballistic' rather than
> a maneuvering target, I reject this view utterly.

I don't know where Joe Fugate says that, but the book in question should
probably be scrapped.  As you say, he can spin all he like, it won't bother
my meson gunner!  :-)  At least, not unless he also turns on the drives and
changes his course.

> > > Note that if a ship is powering weapons the "excess" power can be negative
> > > thus subtracting from the ship's ability to maneuver.
> > 
> > Not by the above definition.  Excess power = power output - power used by
> > systems other than manoeuvre drive.  If this is negative, you need a bigger
> > power plant or smaller systems.  If it is zero, the ship's agility is zero.
> 
> I use this terminology to make it explicit that I mean exactly what High
> Guard meant, as opposed to certain folks around here (-8, who feel that
> the power used _by the drive_ should be included, leaving excess power as
> anything over and above that normally used by the drive (overloading!).

Now I'm confused again.  Scott seems to be the "certain folk round here",
as his definition was:
> "Excess Power": Is the amount of power left over after all systems have
> been powered (Sensors, Weapons, Drives, Environ, Comm, etc. etc.)

In any ship I designed under High Guard, "excess power" by this definition
was zero, or slightly positive - I tried to make the power plant just capable
of powering everything on the ship, usually adding a few more lasers if I had
spare power available.

MT's definition of "excess power" is a bit vague: "power left over from the
power plant after all of the craft's other components have been powered".
It doesn't define "other components", though.  If that includes the manoeuvre
drive (as in Scott's version) then it's useless.  If it doesn't include the
manoeuvre drive (which is how I interpreted it, being a High Guard veteran)
then the equation in the manual works just fine.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2755
Subject: Re: (2748) Proposed article about TML 
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 91 02:20:30 EDT
From: carson@tron.bwi.WEC.COM


  Make sure you cover the fact that their are gateways to other email
systems such as compuserve and mcimail.

  For compuserve replace , in user id xxx,yyyy with . and add
compuserve.com giving xxx.yyyy@compuserve.com.

  For mcimail it's userid@mcimail.com.


Dana Carson
UUCP:carson@tron.UUCP 
     carson@tron.bwi.wec.com
     ...!uunet!tron!carson
AT&T: (301) 765-3513
WIN: 285-3513


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2756
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 91 08:20:18 EDT
From: Mike.Metlay@ORGAN.MUSIC.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: Nobility in Traveller

A very good article on nobles of the Imperium is in Travellers' Digest
Number 9, the oh-hell-somebody-just-shot-the-Emperor issue announcing
the birth of MegaTraveller. However, if you don't have that one, I can
answer your questions with a reasonable degree of authority. 

<pause as Metlay dons his Historian hat>

Based on how the GDW/DGP Traveller universe works, Dominic, you blew it
bigtime when you let two characters roll up random dukes and duchesses.
On the IMperial noble rankings, the ducal seat is the highest to which
anyone can ever hope to aspire without assassinating the Emperor! A duke
not only has Imperial powers of fleet command and revenue from planets
under his sphere of influence, but also owns fiefdoms of his own that
his household administers directly. The same is true of other nobles,
but the difference where a duke is concerned is SCALE: a duke has direct
control over anywhere from two to six entire PLANETS as personal fiefdoms
(read: as far as the Emperor is concerned, those worlds are the duke's 
personal property), and administrative power over an entire SECTOR! That's
sixteen subsectors, and usually hundreds of planets, that need to be 
administered. And administered DIRECTLY, not through a bureaucracy.

A duke can take vacations for brief periods on his own fief-worlds, or
extended ones due to health reasons, but not without causing some measure
of concern on the part of his government officials. He will NEVER leave
his sector of power unless on extremely important affairs of state, for
example to visit the Emperor for some reason or another, and he leaves his
power base for as little time away as possible. He will NEVER travel
incognito unless his life and future are on the line (Norris retrieving
the vital document he needed in the 5FW), and on any other occasion his
travels are widely publicized and treated with HUGE fanfare-- he will
have no more chance of a quiet trip than an American President would.
He has effectively infinite wealth and infinite resources to call upon,
up to and including entire Naval fleets and entire planetary treasuries.
If he DOES join a party, each and every adventure must revolve around him
and only him, and the party will essentially be part of his huge retinue.
There are only a few dozen dukes in the entire Imperium, if that many,
and each and every one is known by name by every schoolchild in the state.
The oligharchic nature of the Imperium makes nobles of the higher ranks
especially revered, and that means a duke will be well-known and received
in pomp wherever he goes. Period.

Oh, and I assume the duchess is the duke's wife? Two of them in the same
room would never happen except on state visits to Capital, otherwise;
that means that one or the other spouse is actually a consort, and enjoys
a lot of the privileges but little of the actual power. Two dukes of two
sectors adventuring together as part of a party is utter ridiculousness.
ONE is too, but two basically brands the adventure as impossible....

My advice is that you scale the characters back to an absolute maximum
of Social 13, and maybe only 12. Most barons have a fair amount of power
of their own, and receive good treatment when they travel, but administer
only sections of worlds (or entire, small worlds) and have little clout
beyond their systems. A marquis would have some power and influence over
a subsector or two-- that's often fifty worlds-- as well as having an
entire world as a fiefdom, and by that level, his movements are newsworthy
and he is an unsuitable party member. I find that if the players treat the
nobles as they should, any noble over rank 12 utterly trashes game
balance. Good luck!

metlay

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2757
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1991 13:33 -0500
From: SULAIMAN@ecs.umass.edu
Subject: Agility.....


>Ok, High Guard functioned like this:  A ship with power plant-2 and
>maneuver drive-2 automatically becomes agility=2.  In order to have
>a functioning maneuver drive, you had to have a power plant factor
>equal to the maneuver drive thus a ship with the above plants will
>always be agility=2 when not powering lasers (energy wpns etc). A
>hit to the power plant reduces the agility of the ship by that amount.

I believe it was more a function of m-drive. A minimum P-plant 2 was needed to
run a maneuver-2. Most ships usually had much higher P-plants.

>Now, when a High Guard ship attempts to escape, the ship relies on
>agility to do so, not maneuver drive.  So a 3-G ship with agility=3
>can escape from a 6-G ship with agility=1.
Two points. First the High Guard sytem was far more abstract than the MT
abstraction. Secondly. Agility and M-drive was almost synonymous in High Guard
which is not true any more (to belabor the point).

>Rationalization:  The 6G ship's power plant is being drained away
>from the maneuver drive and it is not putting out 6-G's, it is putting
>out only 1G.

Not necessarily. I believe what it meant was an abstract way of representing
evasiveness. Besides if the 6-G P-plant is only putting out 1-G, why not just get
a 1-G drive and use the space for s-thing else.


>In view of the MegaTrav design rules this does not translate unless
>we do the following:

Why does it have to translate? I think part of our problem is an attempt to High
Guardize, Megatraveeler starship combat system. I wish GDW had totally redone the
system and left no references to High Guard. Basically for all practical
purposes, Megatraveller is an entirely new game from Traveller. In many ways even
the universe is quite different.

>Agility may not exceed maneuver drive rating.
>(No more agility=6 1-G drive ships...)

So??? Were there ever any such ships? High Guard certainly disallowed it and so
does MT.

.
.
.
.
various eqns deleted
>Note that if a ship is powering weapons the "excess" power can be negative
>thus subtracting from the ship's ability to maneuver.  This is what Rob
>refers to as "Double Dipping".

What you still haven't made clear is how your agility explanation is more
rational. Are the M-drives of a 6-G agility 3 ship pulling actually 9-G
acceleration!!! These eqns are just as arbitrary as the one in MT.


>His opinion is that we should use the loaded weight for the above
>calculations and I concur.  How often are ships flying around with
>no fuel and no cargo?  

But since there are anti grav modules on board, does the loaded weight really
matter?? I think it was more a question of mass and inertia then weight. However
I do tend to agree with this as it will make all agilities more sensible, just
as adding the mass of armor has.

>He also suggests that the 5.4 in the above
>be 10 as would occur in his thrust based maneuver drive calculations
>(for grav based not thruster based vehicles).  That is, in a small
>vehicle using standard grav propulsion, such as a 10 ton fighter, the
>acceleration is the thrust divided by the loaded weight, and the
>thrust is conveniently equivalent to the power input to the grav
>units in MW multiplied by 10.

Why 10?? It is still arbitrary. I would prefer 5, as I personally think that all
ships are too over agile anyway. 

>Translation:  Algebra into English:
>When a ship does not have power for all its weapons, it may divert
>power from the maneuver drive.  Diverting power will reduce the
>output of the drive.  It is possible to overload the engines, but
>that may result in damaging them.  The time allowed for overloading
>them for large increases in performance is considerably less one
>starship combat round.

Most starships according to Starship Ops manual use overdrives for short periods
routinely to get off planets. Why can't this overdrive ability be considered a
ship's "agility" in combat. It would explain why it is useful in combat. A 6-G
ship all of a sudden pulling 24-G(even for 30 sec) can screw up any one's aim
especially at stellar distances. Assume a 6-G agility 6 ship making 24-G bursts
or 6-G lateral thrusts for 30 sec every 5 minutes can be about 50km from its
predicted location.
 

>On a different note:

>Aircraft Agility
>In my opinion, aircraft agilities are far too low.

>Consider: A disp=40 6-G grav fighter: Agility=6, vs.
          F-14 Tomcat: Agility=6
>In a turn, A Tomcat uses its wings and lifting surfaces to pull
>a high G turn at approximately 9 G's

>The Grav fighter (assuming it has wings) has 1/3 the wing area of a
>jet fighter and is many many many times it's weight.  (In 101 vehicles
>there is a Zho grav sled that weighs close to 180 tons, a displacement
>of 2, and wings? It weighs close to what a B-52 does and is smaller
>than a Cessna and they expect to get lift?)  It can get little if any
>lift and must rely on it's grav units to turn it.  These as we said
>before are only 6G's.

>Result:  In a fast turning Dogfight the Tomcat can run rings around
>the Grav fighter.  Of course the Tomcat has no inertial comps and so
>the pilot takes a beating on the inside, but he will always be able
>to get the advantage of the grav fighter.

Again the question is whether starcraft "agility" has any meaning beyond MT
combat. A grav fighter agility 6 can produce SUSTAINED 6-G turns for 20 min. If
you take my above explanation it can pull up to 24-G for short periods with no
discomfort to its passenger. A Tomcat pilot doing 6-G turns for 20 minutes....!!!

I think COACC is terrible in its most interesting and useful part - the air-space
interface combat involving aircraft and space craft. It is not clearly detailed
and really makes no sense. It makes no real effort to explain any such combat
even though it claims to be basically about this concentrating more on air-air
and air-ground combat. In many ways it is a parallel set of rules to the starship
combat rules.  

>Conclusion:  I believe that aircraft agility should not be limited to 6,
>but 9 (the physical limit of a pilot).  At TL 10, when inertial
>compensators are used the agility could go even higher.

I presume you mean for COACC. If you intend to give space fighters involved in
MT starship combat agility 9 then there is a major problem. An Agility 9 TL15
fighter(<100t) with Model 9 comp will be impossible to hit except by a spinal PA.
An agility 11 fighter will be totally impossible to hit.


>Scott Kellogg

Ameer



------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2758
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1991 16:11 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: The SHADO fleet (TL8 System Defence)

Hi,

Some of you may think I flipped when you see the below designs,
but, I just got hold of some old video tapes and got to
thinking about this....

Besides Mike mentioned the Shado Fleet last week anyway...
Those of you who never heard of Shado, and the show UFO...
Put this down as TL8-9 system defence stuff

Sky One TL8

CraftID:  Air/Submarine Type SSF, TL8, MCr 22.81262
Hull:     (9/23) Disp=10, Config=1AF, Armor=40C, Length=35m, 
          Unload=134.25, Load=135
          SafeDepth=660m, CrushDepth=990m
Power:    Fusion=14.83MW, Dur=24hrs
Loco:     (7/15) EXPFusionRocket=810t, MaxAccel=6.00, NOE=120,
          (1/2) StdGrav=135t, Surface=945kph, Dived=945kph,
          AirTop=4200, AirCruise=3150, Agility=6
Comm:     Radio=System*2
Sensors:  AW-RADAR(Planet), RDF, LaserSensor, PasIR, LightAmp,
          ImageEnh,
          ActObjScn=Dif  ActObjPin=Dif  PasEnScn=Imp
Off:      HPt=1
               Missile=x01
               Batt      2
               Bear      2
Def:      DefDM+10
Control:  Computer Mod/2bis*2, HUD*1, ElectronLink*6
Accom:    Crew=1(Pilot=1) Seat=Aedequate*1, BasicEnv, BasicLS
Other:    Fuel=.67Kl, Mag=1Kl (5 B-rnds), (Possible Cargo=1.5Kl)
          ObjSize=Avg, EmLevel=Mod, AcousticSig=Strong

Carrier/Attack Sub TL8/9 "Skydiver" Class

CraftID:  Carrier/Attack Sub, Type SSAN, TL8,
          MCr 500.008055+SkyOne
Hull:     (270/675) Disp=300, Config=1AF, Armor=40C,
          Length=110+SkyOne(35m), Unload=2653t,
          Load=2871t+SkyOne(135t), Dived=4050t+SkyOne=135t,
          SafeDepth=660m, CrushDepth=990m
Power:    (10/20) Fusion=870Mw, Dur=6hr (infinite in water)
Loco:     (14/27) HydrofoilTop=330kph, Min=220kph
          (58/116) MHD, DiveTop=152kph, DiveCruise=40kph,
Comm:     Radio=System*3, RadioJam=System
Sensors:  AW-RADAR=FarOrb, ActSonar=Reg, PasSonar=Cont,
          Magnetometer, Radiation, Environment, RDF, ImageEnh,
          Headlight*10, VideoCamera, RadarJamm=FarOrb
          ActObjScn=Rout ActObjPin=Rout
          ActAudScn=Rout ActAudPin=Rout
          PasAudScn=Simp  PasAudPin=Simp
          PasEnScn=Imp
Off:      533mm Torpedo Tubes*4
Def:      NoisemakerTube*4
Control:  Computer=2bis*3, HUD*17, ElectronicLink=17
Accom:    Crew=6(Command=1, Bridge=2, Flight=1, Engineer=2)
          SmStateroom=6, BasicEnv, BasicLS, ExtendLS, AirLock*3
Other:    Fuel=2.61KL, Fuel Pure=5min, 533mmMag=18Kl: 12 rnds,
          Cargo=200Kl, ObjSize=Avg, EMlevel=Mod,
          AcousticSig=Strong
I tried making Skydiver at TL 8, and you can't get a fission
plant to hydroplane.  So the reactor is the only TL9 element
Sky one... Well, It can't get lift from it's stubby
wings/diving planes, so I added TL9 grav to make it fly.
     For those of you who don't know, SkyOne is carried on the
bow of skydiver, and is launched from underwater.

Interceptor TL8

CraftID:  Interceptor Type IF, TL8, MCr 24.99325
Hull:     (9/23) Disp=10, Config=7AF, Armor=40C,
          Unload=122.88, Load=123.65
Power:    Fusion=14.83MW, Dur=14/42
Loco:     (7/14) EXPFusionRocket=742t, MaxAccel=6.00, NOE=120,
          Agility=6
Comm:     Radio=System*3
Sensors:  EMM, RADAR(FarOrb), RDF, LaserSensor, PasIR, LightAmp,
          ImageEng, Radiation
          ActObjScn=Rout ActObjPin=Rout PasEnScn=Imp
Off:      HPt=1
               Missile=x01
               Batt      1
               Bear      1
Def:      DefDM+10
Control:  Computer Mod/2bis*3, HUD*1, ElectronLink*4
Accom:    Crew=1(Pilot=1) Seat=Room*1, BasicEnv, BasicLS
Other:    Fuel=10.08Kl, ObjSize=Avg, EmLevel=Faint

Ground Speeder TL 8

CraftID:  Ground Speeder TL 8 Cr 26435
Hull:     (1/3) Disp=1, Config=4AF, Armor=8C,
          Unload=39.12 Load=4
Power:    (1/2) MHD=.8Mw, Dur=10hr
Loco:     (1/2) Wheels, P/W=211, Road=300kph, Off=90kph
Comm:     Radio=Cont
Sensors:  Headlight*4
Off/Def:  HPt=1
Control:  Electronic*3
Accom:    Crew=1(Driver, Passenger=3) Seat=Room*2, None*2
          BasicEnv, BasicLS
Other:    Fuel=.7kl, Cargo=.54, ObjSize=Sm, EmLevel=Mod
The show had the coolest car ever designed.

Scott Kellogg

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2759
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 91 21:44:08 -0700
From: George William Herbert <gwh@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: re: nobles


	Actually, (contrary to Metlay's post...) I was under the impression 
that the average Duke was in charge of a Subsector, not a full sector.  
Norris, for example, was only the Regina subsector duke, and there have been
subsequent mentions of other Duke (actually, Dutchess of Mora whatshername 8-)
level personae in the marches.  So it's not _quite_ as bad as you made it out
to be.

	That does not mean that a Duke, even a subsector duke, is playable...
as the US Secret Service currently does, there is _nothing_ that they will
be allowed to do without having their security people there.  Until you
drop down to Baron, they're unreasonable to play.  (Even a Marquis will be
about as constrained as a modern superpower leader...).

- - -george william herbert
gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun Aug 18 21:00:09 PDT 1991
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #227: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
2760  12-Aug-91 jimv@ucrmath.ucr. Re: Traveller Nobility << Mike.Metlay@ORGAN.M
2761  13-Aug-91 Mike.Metlay@ORGAN On the Shadow (not SHADO) Fleet << Erm, Steve
2762  13-Aug-91 cmaddox@imsa.edu  GenCon Report - TML Article << Sorry, that I 
2763  13-Aug-91 rem@oz.plymouth.e 2300AD Organizations << Back from vacation...
2764  13-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Agility (what is it?) << Agility, as I unders
2765  13-Aug-91 dominic@quest.ath RE: Gyroscopic Attitude Control Systems << Mr
2766  14-Aug-91 chk@alias.COM     Re: 2300AD Organizations << > My question for
2767  14-Aug-91 John Lusk         Re: 2300AD Organizations << I'm currently run
2768  14-Aug-91 SULAIMAN@ecs.umas Dukes << Now, now Metlay... I don't really th
2769  14-Aug-91 SULAIMAN@ecs.umas Starship combat << Hi, I had asked earlier bu
2770  14-Aug-91 cmaddox@imsa.edu  Ducal Titles << [Appeared in traveller-reques
2771  14-Aug-91 Hans Rancke-Madse Re: Nobles << > jimv@ucrmath.ucr.edu (jim vas
2772  14-Aug-91 "Robert S. Dean"  More ships. << More ships. What can I say? Ro
2773  15-Aug-91 Adrian Hurt       Re: Agility << From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.ed
2774  15-Aug-91 Mike.Metlay@ORGAN Put up yer Dukes! << I accept, with reservati
2775  15-Aug-91 "Robert S. Dean"  More stuff... << The Pronghorn design below w
2776  15-Aug-91 kominetz@cbmvax.c Please remove me... << Please remove me from 

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2760
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 91 23:38:57 PDT
From: jimv@ucrmath.ucr.edu (jim vassilakos)
Subject: Re: Traveller Nobility


Mike.Metlay@ORGAN.MUSIC.CS.CMU.EDU writes:
> Based on how the GDW/DGP Traveller universe works, Dominic, you blew it
> bigtime when you let two characters roll up random dukes and duchesses.

Now now... let's not be evil green meanies from the planet Zongo  :-)
Dominic's situation seems salvagable, and perhaps even advantageous
with a little bit of monkeying (of which I'm, notoriously in favor).

But first, a little background:

Bob Swarm's article in DGP's Digest #9 divides the nobility into
three classes: the honor, rank, and high nobility. Although well
written, I've always found this separation a tad cumbersome.
Effectively depowering the lesser nobility, it seemed to be
rationalizing a rules system which was either (a) inherently
flawed from the beginning or (b) meant to be played within an
environment of imagination often reserved only for high-fantasy.

Let's face it. It's not entirely out of the question that a
character should roll a natural 12 on Social Standing and then
add three points in service. If such a situation occurs, though
unusual, must it be the GM's responsibility to deny the "Ducal"
status in the name of party-balance?

> I find that if the players treat the
> nobles as they should, any noble over rank 12 utterly trashes game
> balance. Good luck!

Agreed, game balance is put in dire jeopardy, but there are three
generic alternatives.

(1) The Brash Young Princeling

If you can't stand the thought of granting estate, fleet, and taxes,
make the socially deviant character an offspring of the Duke, thus
allowing the title, a suitable pension, and lavish adventure
opportunities without all the mess of going overboard with
massive administrative responsibilities and unlimited resources.

(2) Oh heck... I hate Zhodani invasions!

Okay... so the character really is a Duke/Duchess, but suddenly their
Domain gets taken over by barbarian invaders with funny looking
noses. (suggested for the hack'n'slashers out there)

   Better learn to say "incognito" ten times fast....

(3) Double heck... Nothing like traitors to spoil the afternoon tea!

Well... maybe the barbarians with funny noses are busy playing golf.
If so, you can always count on a little internal strife. Are the
masses dissatisfied with Imperial rule? Maybe Coca-Farben and
SuSag want to stick the Duke's nephew into power. He was, afterall,
an economics major at the Imperial Academy of Science and Medicine.
Then again, maybe the Duke has left the administration of things to
his Ministry of Internal Affairs while he goes off to pursue some
extra-marital ones, preferably without public surveylance. Maybe the
grandadmiral of his fleets (coincidentally a neice of the Emperor) decided
to turn the Imperial Palace into a Naval Supply Depot. Hey... we can
have a little fun, can't we?


The bottom line here... and maybe it isn't the bottom line (I dunno)...
is that every new situation can bring on some pretty impressive
roleplaying opportunities. A lot will have to do with how the players
handle it. I've been a notorious nerd when put in positions of
supreme authority... but if you have the right combination of players,
nearly anything can work. So don't destroy it on GM-whim. Let things
unfold under the players' devices, and then see what opportunities
can be realized and what problems need fixing.


           _   /|
           \`o_O'
             ( )     <---  jimv@ucrmath.ucr.edu
              U            ucsd!ucrmath!jimv (uucp)
          Aachk!
        Phft! Ftp!


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2761
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 91 08:27:54 EDT
From: Mike.Metlay@ORGAN.MUSIC.CS.CMU.edu
Subject: On the Shadow (not SHADO) Fleet

Erm, Steve, I said "Shadow," not SHADO. As much as I loved UFO, that
wasn't what I had in mind....|-> But I'm not objecting to the designs;
the Skydiver is a brilliant example of a later-commonplace idea (a
planetary defence fighter with what essentially amounts to a mobile
undersea launch pad) at a low TL. Great fun! Oh, parenthetically, the
"coolest car ever designed" that the show's star drove was a real
automobile, although very few of them were ever made available for
sale; it was a Chevrolet Astro III, last in the series of Astro "concept
cars" (and LEAST flashy of them all; the Astro I literally looked and
drove like something out of The Jetsons).

The Shadow Fleet is something that's still floating around my MT universe,
altho it's now tied (sorta) to the official MT historical line in a clear
manner. Basically, the Shadow Fleet is a widespread, mysterious "fleet" of
starships ranging in size from scouts to Tigresses, usually appearing
only one at a time under bizarre circumstances at various points in the
Imperium. The ships of the Fleet are always painted absolutely flat dead
black from end to end (illegal under Imperial shipping laws, which require 
that a certain large percentage of ships be painted brightly to aid in
visual starport approach and docking guidance), and very often they do
NOT show up on any planetary defense sensing systems (for reasons I can't
really divulge here, since people who play my game read this). They're
usually seen only briefly under mysterious circumstances, and those who
DO see them rarely talk about them-- people who do tend to vanish.

A lot of my early Traveller adventures were built around the Shadow Fleet,
and my current party may run into them eventually-- in which case you'll
read about the carnage here. |->

And speaking of ships, I don't suppose anyone out there who seems willing
to mouth off at great length about agility (Steve? Rob? Adrian?) would
be willing to achieve some sort of a consensus for TDR? Hmmmmmmm?

oboy I get ta use my .sig, 

metlay				| The Alesis Digital Recorder is vaporware.
xpander-loving old curmudgeon   | The Kurzweil K2000 is VAPORWARE.
                                | The Oberheim OB-MX is **VAPORWARE!!**
metlay@organ.music.cs.cmu.edu	| Metlay's Law STILL applies, no matter WHAT!

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2762
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1991 08:51:53 -0600
From: cmaddox@imsa.edu
Subject: GenCon Report - TML Article


Sorry, that I haven't responded sooner...  Went up to Gencon and talked to
both GDW and DGP.  When I was at the GDW booth there were no Challenge
people there so the best that they could do for me was to take my name and
address so that they could send their "Writers guidelines".  Interestingly
enough one of the names that had signed up for these guidelines I
recognized...  Charles Kallenbach (I think that's how it's spelled) how was
one of the people behind Paranoia Press in the early 1980's (Beyond,
Vangard Reaches, SORAG, etc.).  Hopefully we will see some new material
from him!

Anyway I also talked to Joe Fugate and Rob Caswell at DGP.  I asked them if
they were interested in submissions for MTJ and Joe said that Rob was the
one responsible for submissions.  So I gave them a copy of the rough draft
(on both paper and floppy) and explained a little about what we've been
discussing.  Rob was not aware of TML but Joe was.  They seemed very
interested in the article, Joe pointed out that their new base of
operations is fairly close to yours.
They made sure that they had both my home and work address and phone #. 
Only time will tell...

Otherwise Gencon was enjoyable even though there was no new MegaTrav
products, unless you want to count Challenge 51.  Solomani and Aslan should
be released in October, and the new GDW adventure should be released in
September.  There was several vendors that had older Traveller material,
and I managed to pick up some replacement copies of some of my time worn
old books.  All in all an enjoyable time.

Chuck

Chuck Maddox    	       	       	       	       	cmaddox@imsa.edu
Computer Technician     	       	       	       	(708)-801-6015    	
Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy
  	       	


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2763
From: rem@oz.plymouth.edu (Bob Mahoney)
Subject: 2300AD Organizations
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 91 16:44:10 EDT

Back from vacation...  and catching up on mail!  (over 400 messages- some were 
even work-related.)

After a year playing MT, our group is trying 2300.  So far, they seem to like 
it.  I am in the process of steering them toward an organization... 

My question for other 2300 refs is:  What sorts of organizations do you use?  
My group does not have a real military bent, so an Army or whatnot is out.
I'd rather not say what I am using, since Brucer (aka Zben Blaine) is a list
member, but I'd be interested to see if other refs do use organizations as 
suggested in the text, and what types.

As to organizations vs. national governments, there are some examples:  The IRA
vs. the British govt,  Greenpeace vs. the French, Amnesty International vs. a
whole lot of people, etc.  Note that these conflicts/interactions are not always
violent, but can be legal or public relations bouts.  

I don't see why any organization would seek to replace the services provided by
governments (like police or social services) while there are governments still 
willing to provide them.  Of course, quasi-governmental organizations, or 
government-wannabes, like the PLO, often provide such services, and operate as 
"governments-in-exile".
- - -- 
                                ..
- - -------------------------------m--m------------------------------------------
Bob Mahoney    Plymouth State College   Computer Services, Plymouth, NH 03264
rem@oz.plymouth.edu      Net Manager/Postmaster       bobmah@psc.plymouth.edu 

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2764
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1991 22:42 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Agility (what is it?)

Agility, as I understand it is the ablity of a craft to maneuver out of
harms way.

I think we are in agreement that agility does not refer to the ability
to rotate a ship.  After all, doing so is not going to help the defender
very much.  Given that starship combat rounds are 20 minutes, I think that
any ship ought to be able to turn itself around in that time limit...

Therefore agility must have something to do with the craft's ability to
alter its heading.  This means maneuver drive.  If you are fighting with
another ship at a range of 2 light seconds, it will take 4 seconds for
the target information to be acted upon:
Radar bounces off target
  (2 seconds)
Firing ship picks up location of target and fires
  (2 seconds)
Laser beams from firing ship reach area of target ship
  Total time:  4 seconds.

That gives you four seconds for your ship to move to a new location.
So to the firing ship there is a certain area around the target ship
where it could potentially be.   The size of that area (and hence the
uncertainty of it's location) is going to be directly proportional to
the maneuver drive capability of the target ship.

This is why I think agility is the actual performance of the maneuver drive.
High Guard certainly seemed to work that way.  And I believe that it was
the intention of the authors of MegaTrav to use a system that worked.

So, in my book, Agility=maneuver drive (there are times when there is not
sufficient power for the maneuver drive and the maneuver drive is reduced
accordingly, this is why agility is sometimes (often) lower than the
maneuver drive number.

I think that we are basically in agreement with Adrian Hurt when we propose
that the numerator of the agility equation contains the power needed by
the maneuver drive to funtion plus "extra" power if there is any.
(maybe I'm not reading him right but I think that is what we are both saying)

He has pointed out that a good, well thought out design ought to have Zero
excess power.  I agree.  But if your power plant is too small to power
up the ol' power hungry laser turret, then you can do so by stealing power
meant for the maneuver drive.  (Double dipping)  This is the case for many
'standard' ships that didn't originally have lasers mounted on them...
	{hint:  Think of converting book 2 designs to high guard}

Agility in Aircraft.
Spacecraft must rely on their maneuver drives to increase the area of
uncertainty around them on the target scopes of their attackers...
Aircraft, in addition to their engines, have their wings.  An aircraft
can use the wings to turn at much higher rates than a grav vehicle or
spacecraft.  Thus their agilities should be higher.  (Please note that
an aircraft will only be able to do so in an atmosphere.  An Aircraft
funtioning in vacuum will only have its engines to push itself around
with)
The upper limit of the human body to withstand G's is around 9 G's.
Thus the upper limit of an aircraft's ability to turn is 9 G's.  This
is considerably higher than a grav vehicle's ability to turn.  This
is why I think a fixed wing aircraft should have an upper limit of
agility at 9, until such time as inertial compensators can be brought to
solve the problem.

	Aircraft/Spacecraft combat.  If the combat is to take place in the
air at ranges within a few hundred kilometers, then I think that I would
use the air to air rules as set out in COACC.

	In Space or at ranges were visual contact is impossible (normal
space combat ranges) I would use the space combat rules.

Air to air is much closer and should be much quicker.  That is where you
will want to know what the ROF of a Beam laser turret is.

Scott Kellogg

The one real advantage a grav vehicle has over a fixed wing ship is that
the grav vehicle can brake with the full thrust of it's engines.  An
aircraft can turn at faster rates, but it can't quite brake like that.
(unless you are flying a fly-by-wire Su-27 and feel like pulling
the Pugachev's cobra maneuver... {Pulling the nose back so that the angle
of attack is greater than 90 degrees...})

Scotto

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2765
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 91 17:54:30 CST
From: dominic@quest.athenanet.COM (Dominic Duvall)
Subject: RE: Gyroscopic Attitude Control Systems

Mr. Scott wrote:
:The Starship Operators manual says these things are used at speeds
:approaching 1 million RPM.  Ok, lets assume a gyro 1 meter in radius, and
:say 1000 kilograms.  (sound reasonable?)

Well, your analysis shows that such an assumption isn't reasonable.  Why
not assume that the gyro is smaller and less massive?  The high rate of
spin would presumably allow a small gyro, which would take up less space
and be less of a danger.  I haven't done the math, of course, but I think
that if your math shows a gyro with a 2-meter diameter is too dangerous,
then one can assume that the gyro would be smaller than 2 meters.

Dominic Duvall			 | uunet!nstar!pallas!quest!dominic
The Quest, BBS for F&SF and RPGs | dominic@quest.athenanet.com
(217) 546-7608, 3/12/2400 baud   |

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2766
From: chk@alias.COM (C. Harald Koch)
Subject: Re: 2300AD Organizations
Date: 	Wed, 14 Aug 1991 10:19:43 -0400

> My question for other 2300 refs is:  What sorts of organizations do you use?  
> My group does not have a real military bent, so an Army or whatnot is out.
> I'd rather not say what I am using, since Brucer (aka Zben Blaine) is a list
> member, but I'd be interested to see if other refs do use organizations as 
> suggested in the text, and what types.

I'm a player, not a ref, so I don't have all the details :-).

In our campaign, the entire party is the alterday crew of a startship owned
and operated by Trilon Inc. Trilon is a very large American company that
operates mostly in the French arm. They have their own planet (Kie-Yuma)
which, while nominally under American law, is really completely run by
Trilon.

You see, Trilon is taking the long view. They figure that Humanity is going
to be around for a long time, so they've started a terraforming project on
Kie Yuma (Planet looks alot like the one in Aliens :-). They are planning to
completely own/operate the resulting planet, completely severing any ties to
a national government.

Now for our adventuring: Our starship is one of Trilon's troubleshooter
platforms; if there's a Trilon problem somewhere they send us to investigate
and resolve the situation. This can be everything from labour disputes to
evil corrupt governments to capturing Kafer technology to saving New York
City from nuclear terrorists to...

This makes for a fun, useful venue for almost any adventure you can think of.

- - -- 
C. Harald Koch  VE3TLA                Alias Research, Inc., Toronto ON Canada
Internet:    chk@alias.com      chk@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu      chk@chk.mef.org

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2767
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 91 11:11:28 -0400
From: John Lusk <lusk@cs.unc.edu>
Subject: Re: 2300AD Organizations

I'm currently running a 2300 campaign (although w/school starting up
again, who knows how much time we'll have?) in which the driving
organization is the Texas Rangers (and, by extension, the Texan
gov't).  The other "organization" in the picture is the UAR -- guess
which adventure I'm running. :) I'm about to introduce a new player
who is a native of a Life Foundation colony and who is a journalist
(whether she's free-lance and if so, to what degree, has yet to be
decided).  I'd sort of like to get them involved w/the Trilon Corp. at
some point, since I have a couple of far-frontier adventures in mind.
Bob, if you get away from military-type adventuring, I'd be interested
in knowing what you do; 2300AD seems to almost force you into some
form of cowboys-and-indians type adventure.  (BTW, if you want to
discuss this off the list, my email address is lusk@cs.unc.edu.)

I discussed the foundations-vs-nat'l-gov't question on CompuServe, and
reached some conclusions: with the exception of extra-legal
organizations (IRA, PLO, Provolution), organizations don't even
pretend to compete w/nat'l gov'ts.  Organization members still have
national identities, and pay taxes to their respective national
governments (less any applicable exemptions).  They also have strong
"organizational" identities.  For example, a troubleshooter (whatever
THAT is) working for NARL might have grown up in Germany or on a
German colony.  He would think of himself as German, but he has a
greater affinity for ideals that transcend national boundaries.  He
pays German taxes, but he's really subject to the laws of whatever
locality he's in.

I guess it's all fairly obvious, but some of the statements in the
Adventurer's and Director's Guides really threw me for a loop.  The
organization's goals become the player's goals (unless they're TRULY
independent), and for just about every goal, there's an organization.

Now I'll go out on a limb and firmly state my own opinions: It seems
to me that, even today, national governments are more or less the
same.  They provide the same basic services to their citizens, impose
the same more-or-less commonsense laws, and hit 'em w/taxes.  The more
services, the more taxes.  Differences show up mostly as cultural
differences, which should be role-played.  I don't really see
organizations like the Pesh Murga or the PLO going into space,
although groups using the same tactics may arise on colonies
struggling for independence.  Really outlandish situations, like the
civil war in Ethiopia with all its attendant complexities, or the
suppression of the Indian population of Guatemala, or the requirement
that the government of Lebanon be made of differing religious groups
(Christian PM, Islamic President, etc) won't be directly transplanted
to the colonies, but might be duplicated, somehow.  According to the
official history, only a few colonies have rebelled, so it really
sounds like business as usual out there.

Good grief, if I'm not careful, I'll just write incoherently for
hours!

John.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2768
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1991 12:27 -0500
From: SULAIMAN@ecs.umass.edu
Subject: Dukes

Now, now Metlay... I don't really think being a duke/duchess is all
that bad!! There are supposed to be about 1 for every 2 subsectors
on average I believe. Maybe you are thinking of archdukes. However
these are an even rarer species. There can be many dukes in a
sector. One of them could become top dog  and be a sector duke. All
these people would have the same social standing(F).

I quote the Imperial Encyclopedia:

     Duke: The fifth level of noble rank is duke, who is associated
     with a subsector or sector. 
     .
     .
     An individual accorded a duchy may receive a fief of land on
     single world, generally not more than 100,000 square km.


That definition does not entirely go together with metlay's. Dukes
DONOT control planets. The ArchDuke of Ilelish does not run the
government of Dlan. The government being a religious dictatorship.
The archduke is not the right religion even though he is a native.
I think we have to separate Imperial administrative control from
local one. The Duke of Regina is also Count of Yori yet he
INFLUENCES not controls both governments. He heads the Imperial
civil service for the subsector. In our terms think of him as a US
senator. He influences and controls much of what goes on in his
state but the actual government is left to locals. 

In game terms, I tend to side more with metlay. If you give a
player all the benefits of nobility you make the game centered
around that person. If you don't then it can be construed to be a
waste of a skill roll. 

However there is hope. Aside from being incognito, the noble
character can be from worlds just overrun by Vargrs. Tons of these
in Corridor and Lishun. He could be on the run from Lucan! All his
estates confiscated by the Imperium. They could also be "local"
dukes. Basically from worlds with feudal governments. Lastly they
can be Dukes by default. The character was originally 4 offspring
of 3rd cousin to the actual Duke. But since the entire family was
killed/murdered/assassinated the character is now a duke by
default. The other PCs could have been hired originally to get the
poor person from being killed. Maybe a few could be his retainers
too. Also depending on the characters age etc you could say he
abdicated (voluntarily or otherwise) his powers to someone else but
not the title. A particularly cruel idea is that the character
could be a Duke on the Solomani Rim on a long vacation in the
Marches on a unlimited travel/credit voucher from Sharurshiid but
with the retrenchment of the Vilani and the war his voucher is
worth nothing and the character has no money and no means of
getting back to his OCCUPIED home.

Again a high noble character does not have to be a hindrance to
play. Instead the character can be a source of many ideas and
adventures. The character could be a campaign basis with individual
adventures not necessarily based on him

Ameer Sulaiman.  ^Z

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2769
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1991 12:34 -0500
From: SULAIMAN@ecs.umass.edu
Subject: Starship combat

Hi,
I had asked earlier but not received any response on this. So I will
repeat the question:

Has anyone out there really run starship combat using MT rules? 
I am interested specifically in whether other people were involved
in running the battle or was it done solitaire. Also what was the
sizes of craft involved. 

I have an added question:

Anyone running a campaign using MT rules involving large craft. >10kt
displacement. I know someone posted a battle earlier involving a Vargr
strike but I am not sure whether the rules were High Guard or MT or
homebrew...

Speculations questions welcome.

Ameer

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2770
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1991 08:59:14 -0600
From: cmaddox@imsa.edu
Subject: Ducal Titles

[Appeared in traveller-request's mailbox by accident.  I edited the
subject line and forwarded it to the traveller mailbox -- James]

jimv@ucrmath.ucr.edu (jim vassilakos) writes:

>
>Let's face it. It's not entirely out of the question that a
>character should roll a natural 12 on Social Standing and then
>add three points in service. If such a situation occurs, though
>unusual, must it be the GM's responsibility to deny the "Ducal"
>status in the name of party-balance?
>
>

An historical equivelent of this is the late British Lord Louis Montbatten.
 Montbatten was born fairly high in British nobility and spent his life in
service to his country.  In Traveller terms he probably started with a high
Social Standing (9, A or B anyway) and increased it during his life, but
any increase was manifested only in terms of reputation and recognition
rather than power.  In the end this was his downfall since it made him a
highly visable target (in his case of the IRA). 

Chuck

Chuck Maddox    	       	       	       	       	cmaddox@imsa.edu
Computer Technician     	       	       	       	(708)-801-6015    	
Illinois Mathematics and Science Academy
  	       	


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2771
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@freja.diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Nobles
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 91 19:31:12 MET DST

> jimv@ucrmath.ucr.edu (jim vassilakos) writes:
>
> Mike.Metlay@ORGAN.MUSIC.CS.CMU.EDU writes:
> > Based on how the GDW/DGP Traveller universe works, Dominic, you blew it
> > bigtime when you let two characters roll up random dukes and duchesses.
>
I agree. A 'Travelling' imperial noble is really quite ridiculous (as
IMO is an ex-High Admiral or other high imperial official).

> Let's face it. It's not entirely out of the question that a
> character should roll a natural 12 on Social Standing and then
> add three points in service.

No indeed. It is actually quite likely that one will show up if
you play long enough.

>                               If such a situation occurs, though
> unusual, must it be the GM's responsibility to deny the "Ducal"
> status in the name of party-balance?

Yes! Yes! Yes! It is ALWAYS the responsibility of the GM to vet
the rules and veto anything that will upset the game (remind me
sometimes to tell you about the time I played classic Traveller
with a GM who played _by_the_book_!)

>
> > I find that if the players treat the
> > nobles as they should, any noble over rank 12 utterly trashes game
> > balance. Good luck!
>
> Agreed, game balance is put in dire jeopardy, but there are three
> generic alternatives.
>
The solution I've adopted is to ignore the MegaTraveller version of
nobles and stick to the classic Traveller interpretation. Vis: That
the ranks rolled up on the character generation tables are _local_
_planetary_ranks. I furthermore interpret noble rank in the conti-
nental manner (in which all the sons of a noble inherits the rank)
instead of the english. This makes nobles much easier to handle ;-)

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2772
Date:     Wed, 14 Aug 91 15:47:11 EDT
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  More ships.

More ships.  What can I say?

Rob

IGN Aganar Class "Light Cruiser" TL13

     The first Aganar class light cruiser was built by the Imperial Glisten 
Navy in 997.  The last of the sixty vessels was commissioned in 1029.  The 
ships are named for famous battles of history.  At the outbreak of the Fifth 
Frontier War, the Aganars were the oldest class of vessels still in service 
with the IGN, and were committed to action immediately as one of the few 
meson gun carrier classes in use.  Merely the technological equals of their 
opponents in the Collace Independence Fleet, and heavily outnumbered at every 
encounter due to the vagaries of their pre-war deployment, the Aganar squad-
rons were virtually annihilated in the opening weeks of the war.  Between 
combat losses and the destruction of a number of damaged ships under repair 
during the brief Collace occupation of Glisten, only a single ship out of the 
sixty, the IGNS Alesia, survived through the end of the war.  The Alesia was 
reclassified as a fleet escort during the fleet reorganization of 1112, and 
was still in service as a training vessel as of 1118.  
     Short duration was a major problem of the class--immediate refueling 
upon entering a system was a necessity, but was considered an acceptable 
trade-off in return for the meson gun mounted on such a comparitively small 
hull.

  CraftID: Aganar Class Light Cruiser, TL13, MCr9460
     Hull: 7200/18000, Disp=8000, Config=1SL, Armor=52F,
           Unloaded=190700t, Loaded=194131t
    Power: 1840/3680, Fusion=248400MW, Dur=13.6 days at 21% power
     Loco: 288/576, Jump=3, 576/1152, Maneuver=3 (Thrusters=416kt), 
           TrueAcc=2.14G, MaxSpeed=1000kph, Cruise=750kph, Agility=2
     Comm: Radio=System*3, LaserComm=System*3, MaserComm=System*3
  Sensors: EMS Active(Far Orbit)*3, EMS Jammer(Far Orbit)*3, EMS
           Passive(Interstellar)*3, High Pen Densitometer(100m)*3, Neutrino
           Sensor(100kw)*3, ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine,
           PassObjScan=Diff, PassObjPin=Diff, PassEnScan=Routine,
           PassEnPin=Difficult
      Off: Hardpoints=80

            MesonGun=E0x   Missile=x90   BeamLaser=xx9
           Batteries 1              5                1
           Bearing   1              5                1

      Def: DefDm+9, NuclearDamper-3, MesonScreen-3

              Sandcasters=xx9
           Batteries        2
           Bearing          2

  Control: Computer Mod7fib*3, LargeHoloDisplay*2, HeadsUpHoloDisplay*70,
           HoloLink*1200
    Accom: Crew=122 (12 command, 13 bridge, 34 engineer, 54 gunnery, 6
           Maintenance, 2 medical), Staterooms=61, Env=basic env, basic ls,
           extended ls, grav plates, inertial comp
    Other: Fuel=31170kl, Cargo=0, Missile Magazine=2500kl (100 battery
           rounds), Fuel Scoops, Fuel Purifier (18hrs), ObjSize=Large, 
           EmLevel=Strong
    Notes: Fuel Consumption at full power 138kl/hr, at 21% power (full
           maneuver and life support) 29.3kl/hr, 21600kl per Jump-3


Collace Retribution Class Light Cruiser TL13

     The Retribution class light cruiser is one of four standard designs 
produced for the Collace Independence Fleet prior to the Fifth Frontier War.  
Like the others, every effort was made to make these vessels easy to assem-
ble, and over a hundred were in service by the outbreak of the war.  A small 
group of these cruisers, along with one Freedom class battlecruiser escaped 
from the final battle at Collace where they had been stationed throughout the 
war, and were eventually sold to an Aslan clan navy in the Trojan Reach sec-
tor, and participated in the attack on Glisten in 1119, twelve years after 
their sisters.

  CraftID: Retribution Class Light Cruiser, TL13, MCr16220
     Hull: 27000/67500, Disp=30000, Config=4SL, Armor=40F,
           Unloaded=382000t, Loaded=400000t
    Power: 3047/6094, Fusion=411300MW, Dur=21 days
     Loco: 810/1620, Jump=2, 1350/2700, Maneuver=2 (Thrusters=975kt), 
           TrueAcc=2.4G, MaxSpeed=1000kph, Cruise=750kph, Agility=2
     Comm: Radio=System*3, LaserComm=System*3, MaserComm=System*3
  Sensors: EMS Active(Far Orbit)*3, EMS Jammer(Far Orbit)*3, EMS
           Passive(Interstellar)*3, High Pen Densitometer(100m)*3, Neutrino
           Sensor(100kw)*3, ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine,
           PassObjScan=Diff, PassObjPin=Diff, PassEnScan=Routine,
           PassEnPin=Difficult
      Off: Hardpoints=300

            ParticleAccelerator=R00   Missile=x90
           Batteries            1              24     
           Bearing              1              22     

      Def: DefDm+8, NuclearDamper-3, MesonScreen-3

              Sandcasters=xx9
           Batteries        2
           Bearing          2

  Control: Computer Mod7fib*3, LargeHoloDisplay*4, HeadsUpHoloDisplay*130,
           HoloLink*90
    Accom: Crew=155 (13 command, 15 bridge, 65 engineer, 58 gunnery, 2
           maintenance, 2 medical), Staterooms=78, Env=basic env, basic ls,
           extended ls, grav plates, inertial comp
    Other: Fuel=177477kl, Cargo=0, Missile Magazine=12000kl (100 battery
           rounds), Fuel Scoops, Fuel Purifier (12hrs), ObjSize=Large, 
           EmLevel=Strong
    Notes: Fuel Consumption at full power 228.5kl/hr, at 33% power (full
           maneuver and life support) 76.2kl/hr, 60750kl per Jump-2

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2773
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Agility
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 91 10:08:48 BST

From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
> I think that we are basically in agreement with Adrian Hurt when we propose
> that the numerator of the agility equation contains the power needed by
> the maneuver drive to funtion plus "extra" power if there is any.
> (maybe I'm not reading him right but I think that is what we are both saying)

And this "extra power" is defined as "power plant output minus power used by
all systems, including manoeuvre drive".  Let's try converting it to algebra:

	  Pm + Pe
Agility = ------- * 10
	     M

where Pm is power used by manouevre drive, Pe is "excess power", M is mass of
ship.

Your definition of excess power is:

Pe = Pp - Pm - Ps - Pw - Penv - Pc

where Pp is output of power plant, Ps is power used by various low-power
systems (comms, sensors etc.), Pw is power used by weapons, Penv is power
used by environmental controls, and Pc is power used by computers.  So,

	  Pm + Pp - Pm - Ps - Pw - Penv - Pc
Agility = ---------------------------------- * 10
	     		M

Note that Pm can now be eliminated:

	  Pp - Ps - Pw - Penv - Pc
Agility = ------------------------ * 10
	     	     M

And that top line is what I call "power available to the manoeuvre drive".
Pm, the power rating of the manoeuvre drive, doesn't come into the equation,
except for being an upper limit on the numerator - the manoeuvre drive can't
use more power than its maximum rating, and that's how you prevent agility
from exceeding manoeuvre rating.

dominic@quest.athenanet.COM (Dominic Duvall) writes:
> Mr. Scott wrote:
> :The Starship Operators manual says these things are used at speeds
> :approaching 1 million RPM.  Ok, lets assume a gyro 1 meter in radius, and
> :say 1000 kilograms.  (sound reasonable?)
> 
> Well, your analysis shows that such an assumption isn't reasonable.  Why
> not assume that the gyro is smaller and less massive?

In which case it's spinning faster, and still dangerous.  I have a vague
memory of a S.F. short story in which a ship used gyros for turning, and
was therefore very slow on the turn.  There was a comment to the effect that
there were two ways of turning the ship; thrusters, which were difficult to
balance and to do precise manoeuvres, and gyros, which gave the ship all the
agility of a bogged hippopotamus.  (It's the "bogged hippopotamus" bit I
remember most accurately.  :-)

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2774
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 91 08:49:36 EDT
From: Mike.Metlay@ORGAN.MUSIC.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: Put up yer Dukes!

I accept, with reservations, the corrections posted by those who actually
have their books nearby as opposed to relying on memory (can y'all say,
"Back in Atomic CIty again"? Knew you could.) However, I stand by my
initial statement that I consider noble PCs to be a (pardon the pun)
royal pain in the butt. The various workarounds suggested by some folx
are workable only in a very broad sense; from a practical standpoint,
the higher a character's Soc is the less useful a PC he'll make, because
he'll be out of sync with the way "normal" people get things done. Lord
Mountbatten is a poor example, BECAUSE his Soc was B or less-- he wasn't
ennobled to the point where he was really living a life that was that much
different from anyone else's. You want a better example? Take the first
son of, oh, say, the Emir of Bahrain, and dump him in the middle of Kenya
with no money, no ID, and a steady job to keep himself fed. There's a common
language (English), but until and unless he wires Daddy for help he's gonna
be a fish out of water. The higher one's rank, the less actual work one
does-- that's how oligarchies WORK. Sure a duke has duties, but his life 
is going to less like that of a commoner than just about anything you can
think of. Sure there'll be differences from world to world, but the essential
character of the oligarch is there-- so you have the choice of either making
the noble the center of the campaign, or having him do a whole LOT of
roleplaying trying to learn to act like a normal human being without getting
killed, in which case your campaign will look a lot like that Eddie Murphy
flicker about the African prince who lives in NYC for a while, whatever it
was called. Anyway, *I* wouldn't do it, unless the "poor little rich kid"
is exactly what one of my players wanted.

metlay

Beware....the Horde is coming....!


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2775
Date:     Thu, 15 Aug 91 10:13:08 EDT
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  More stuff...

The Pronghorn design below was inspired by Dow Rieder's TL13 Bighorn kinetic
energy drone missile which appeared here some time ago.

Rob Dean

I've been trampled by the Horde...


Balladeer Light Air Raft TL11

     The Balladeer is a fast light air raft intended for use by individuals.  
An extended seating version is available with the inline roomy seats replaced 
by a two by two cramped seat group, but that variation is not popular. A 
small array of sensors gives some limited all weather capability, but reduced 
speed would be prudent under such circumstances.
  
  CraftID: Balladeer Light Air Raft, TL11, Cr29300
     Hull: 1/2, Disp=0.75, Conf=3AF, Armor=2E, Loaded=2.0t,
           Unloaded=1.5t
    Power: 1/2, 5*FuelCell=0.45MW, Dur=3 days
     Loco: 1/2, StdGrav=4t, TopSpeed=1200kph, Cruise=900kph,
           NOE=40kph, MaxAccel=1.0G
     Comm: Radio=Regional(500km)
  Sensors: Passive IR Sensor, Light Amplification, Radar=Dist(5km),
           ActObjScan=Form, ActObjPin=Form
      Off: Hardpoints=1, No weapons
      Def: -
  Control: Electronic*7
    Accom: Seats=Roomy*2, Env=basic env, basic ls
    Other: Fuel=0.144kl, Cargo=0.5kl, ObjSize=Small, EmLevel=Moderate 
    Notes: The fuel tank can be readily adapted for liquid oxygen for use
           in unbreathable atmospheres, with a resulting endurance of
           eight hours.

Balladeer Light Air Raft Emergency Conversion TL11

     When the planet Nasemin (Spinward Marches/Aramis 3003) was invaded in 
1118 by Vargr corsairs intent on setting up a base rather than plundering, the 
planetary militia was quickly overwhelmed.  In a desperate attempt to provide 
air support for a guerilla counterattack on the starport, Colonel Nolan Arme-
nax scraped together a squadron of fourteen Balladeers from local air raft 
dealers and armed them with his limited supply of Pronghorn drone missiles 
salvaged from a destroyed defense installation.  Defending Vargr pilots were 
initially surprised by the use of these civilian craft still in their colorful 
showroom paint schemes, and two combat pinnaces were destroyed before the 
Vargr were able to respond.  All fourteen Balladeers were lost, but the cor-
sairs abandoned their downside base rather than face the anticipated level of 
guerilla activity.
  
  CraftID: Balladeer Conversion, TL11, No price available
     Hull: 1/2, Disp=0.75, Conf=3AF, Armor=2E, Loaded=1.86t,
           Unloaded=1.56t
    Power: 1/2, 5*FuelCell=0.45MW, Dur=3 days
     Loco: 1/2, StdGrav=4t, TopSpeed=1269kph, Cruise=952kph,
           NOE=40kph, MaxAccel=1.15G, Agility=1
     Comm: Radio=Regional(500km)
  Sensors: Passive IR Sensor, Light Amplification, Radar=Dist(5km),
           ActObjScan=Form, ActObjPin=Form
      Off: 6 launch rails, 6 ship missiles in two volleys of 3.

           Missiles=x02
           Batteries  2
           Bearing    2

      Def: DefDM=+3
  Control: Electronic*8
    Accom: Seats=Roomy*1, Env=basic env, basic ls
    Other: Fuel=0.144kl, Cargo=0, ObjSize=Small, EmLevel=Moderate 
    Notes: One seat was ripped out and an additional control unit to fire the 
           missiles was added.  Six launch rails were attached to the stub 
           wings, and the speed was reduced as a result of the drag.  The 
           cargo compartment was left empty to compensate for the weight of 
           the missiles.  The missiles had no oxygen tanks and could not
           reach orbit, but were adequate for short range atmospheric combat.

Pronghorn Drone Missile TL11

     The Pronghorn drone missile is intended for fairly short range atmos-
pheric combat, although it can be adapted for vacuum use with an oxygen tank.  
It is not particularly smart, and would ordinarily be used with a launch 
vehicle with a more capable sensor system.  Once a target is pointed out to 
the missile, it can use its own sensors to maintain a track on it, even 
through violent maneuvering.  With a usable atmospheric acceleration of 6 
G's, specialized atmospheric craft may be able to outmaneuver a Pronghorn 
temporarily, but very few could continue to do so for the full 160 hour 
endurance of the missile.  If a target does manage to distract the missile, 
it can be programmed to self destruct or to return to base to be used again.
     TL12 and TL13 versions of this missile are available, at discounted 
costs of Cr31800 and Cr32100 respectively.  The TL12 version has a slightly 
improved brain with Intelligence of 2 and a skill of GravVehicle-3.  The TL13 
version has intelligence 3, GravVehicle-4, and a warhead with a penetration 
of 67 rather than 65.

  RobotID: Pronghorn Drone Missile, TL11, Cr39330 (31500 mass)
     Hull: 6/13, Disp=80 Liters, Conf=3AF, Armor=2E, Loaded=57.3kg
    Power: 2/4, FuelCell=10KW, Dur=160hrs/17hrs(closed)
     Loco: 2/4, LP-HGrav=0.4t, TopSpeed=4200kph, Cruise=3150kph, MaxAccel=7G
     Comm: none
  Sensors: Passive EMS(VDist), PassEnScan=Form
  Devices: none
      Off: HEAP Warhead, Penetration:65, Damage:28
      Def: -
    Brain: CPU=20 Linear, Storage=12 Standard
  Program: Low Data, Basic Command, GravVehicle-2
    Other: Fuel=16L, Profile=4F11

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2776
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 91 10:31:27 EDT
From: kominetz@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.COM (John Kominetz - Product Assurance)
Subject: Please remove me...


	Please remove me from the traveller mailing list.  Thank you.

	kominetz

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
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From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #228: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
2777  15-Aug-91 "Robert S. Dean"  More...???? << Slow day. Rob Dean Is it a bir
2778  16-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au RIP RE: Gyroscopic Stabalization Systems << H
2779  15-Aug-91 jhc@ulysses.att.C Re: Nobility in Traveller << Mike Metlay's co
2780  16-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Cessna Jump Trainer << Hi, I sent this in a f
2781  16-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Re: Please remove me... << John Kominetz want
2782  16-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Re: Agility << Unless, I read this wrong, we'
2783  16-Aug-91 James T Perkins   Re: Nobility << I had the rare occasion to ta
2784  16-Aug-91 Bob Koester       Thanks and Dukes << First of all, thank you T
2785  17-Aug-91 Richard Johnson   Re: Cessna/Piper Trainer << Excerpts from Sco
2786  17-Aug-91 "Alvin M. Chan"   tongue in cheek remarks (insert 8-) everywher
2787  18-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Merchant Cruiser: Adda Dubsar << "Adda Dubsar
2788  18-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au X-Boat Flash: Scouts grounded! << FLASH FLASH
2789  19-Aug-91 Adrian Hurt       General Products << KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
2790  19-Aug-91 Bertil Jonell     Machinetools (introduction) << A little backg
2791  19-Aug-91 Bertil Jonell     Machinetools 1 << Machinetools1: Revolvers TL
2792  19-Aug-91 "Robert S. Dean"  Re: Machinetools (introduction) (fwd) << In y
2793  20-Aug-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Machinetools (introduction) (fwd) << > I 

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2777
Date:     Thu, 15 Aug 91 16:46:55 EDT
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  More...????

Slow day.

Rob Dean

Is it a bird?  Is it a plane?  No...it's the Horde!



Prince Norman class Light Cruiser TL12

     The three vessels of the Prince Norman class were built by the planetary 
navy of Bendor between 1107 and 1112 to replace three Aganar class light 
cruisers obtained from the Imperial Glisten Navy.  Obtaining parts for the 
aging Aganars was becoming difficult, and the planetary government finally 
approved the construction of the Prince Normans, a replacement plan which 
used local resources and provided a large number of jobs for the planet's 
shipbuilding industry, which was suffering somewhat as a result of the war.
     The Prince Norman and its sisters are typical of front line military 
equipment at this tech level, and closely resemble cruisers seen in Vargr and 
other planetary navies.

  CraftID: Prince Norman class Light Cruiser, TL12, MCr24700 
     Hull: 27000/67500, Disp=30000t, Config=1AF, Armor=40F, Loaded=540kt,
           Unloaded=526kt
    Power: 4334/8668, Fusion=390000MW, Duration=17.9 days at full power
     Loco: 2160/4320, Maneuver=3 (Thrusters=1.56mt), 1080/2160, Jump=3,
           MaxSpeed=2000kph, Cruise=1500kph, TrueAcc=2.9G, Agility=3
     Comm: Radio=System*3, LaserComm=System*3, MaserComm=System*3
  Sensors: EMS Active(FarOrbit)*3, EMS Jammer(Far Orbit)*3, 
           EMS Passive (Interstellar)*3, Neutrino Sensor (1MW),
           HighPenDens (50m), ActObjScan=Rout, ActObjPin=Rout, 
           PassObjScan=Diff, PassObjPin=Diff, PassEnScan=Rout,
           PassEnPin=Form
      Off: Hardpoints=300

                  MesonGun=D00   Missile=x90   BeamLaser=xx9
           Batteries       1              20               1 
           Bearing         1              18               1   

      Def: DefDM+8

               SandCaster=x09
           Batteries        4
           Bearing          4

  Control: Computer Mod6fib*3, 20*LargeHoloDisplay, 210*HeadsUpDisplay,
           25000*DynLink
    Accom: Crew=240 (19 bridge, 122 engineer, 80 gunners, 14 command,
           5 medical), Staterooms=120, Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls, 
           grav plates, inertial comp
    Other: Fuel=165000kl (1 jump-3+17.9 days), Cargo=263kl, Fuel Scoops, Fuel 
           Purifier (18hr), ObjSize=Large, EmLevel=Moderate
    Notes: 81000kl required for Jump-3, 195kl/hr for power plant.  Non-combat
           use of power is about 53% of full capacity, extending duration to
           over 33 days.

Mauritius class Bulk Freighter TL12

     The Mauritius class bulk freighter is designed to serve a cluster of 
civilized worlds.  It is not intended for planetary landings and is therefore 
dependent on the existence of orbital freight transfer facilities.  The basic 
operational pattern for a Mauritius is to dock, take on a load of unrefined 
fuel, process the fuel while unloading, load, and then make a leisurely 
transit to the safe distance to jump to the next port.  Fifteen triple beam 
laser turrets organized into three batteries constitute a reasonable deter-
rent to potential pirates. The total cargo capacity amounts to 7000 displace-
ment tons, with the preferred loading schemes involving either 700 ten ton 
cargo containers or 1750 four ton containers.

  CraftID: Mauritius class Bulk Freighter, TL12, MCr2536 
     Hull: 9000/22500, Disp=10000t, Config=4USL, Armor=40F, Loaded=540kt,
           Unloaded=526kt
    Power: 267/534, Fusion=390000MW, Duration=17.9 days at full power
     Loco: 180/360, Maneuver=1 (Thrusters=130kt), 180/360, Jump=1,
           TrueAcc=0.8G, Agility=0
     Comm: Radio=System*2
  Sensors: EMS Active(FarOrbit), EMS Passive (Interplanetary),
           ActObjScan=Rout, ActObjPin=Rout, PassEnScan=Rout
      Off: Hardpoints=100

               BeamLaser=xx7
           Batteries       3
           Bearing         3

      Def: DefDM+4
  Control: Computer Mod6*3, 2*LargeHoloDisplay, 30*HeadsUpDisplay,
           2200*DynLink
    Accom: Crew=37 (9 bridge, 14 engineer, 1 maintenance, 12 gunners, 3
           command, 1 medical), Staterooms=37, Env=basic env, basic ls, 
           extended ls, grav plates, inertial comp
    Other: Fuel=22140kl (1 jump-1+30 days), Cargo=94500kl, Fuel Purifier 
           (24hr), ObjSize=Large, EmLevel=Moderate

Redspike class System Defense Boat TL9 

     The Redspike class takes its name from a spectacular flower of Trin, and 
is a standard SDB design dating back centuries.  Not all systems follow the 
convention of naming these vessels after flowers.  The Redspike exhibits no 
unusual design features.  It is a typical TL9 design, arranged as a tail-
stander due to the lack of artificial gravity.

  CraftID: Redspike class SDB, TL9, MCr304
     Hull: 360/900, Disp=400, Config=1SL, Armor=40D, Unloaded=5410t,
           Loaded=5800t
    Power: 42/84, Fusion=3720MW, Dur=75 days at full power
     Loco: 62/124, Maneuver=4 (StdGrav=28.6kt), MaxSpeed=1000kph,
           Cruise=750kph, TrueAcc=4.93G orbital/2.47G deepspace, Agility=5/2 
     Comm: Radio=System, LaserComm=System, MaserComm=System
  Sensors: EMM, Radar=FarOrbit, Ladar=FarOrbit, RadarJammer=FarOrbit,
           Radar Direction Finder, Laser Sensor, ActObjScan=Routine,
           ActObjPin=Routine, PassEnScan=Form
      Off: Hardpoints=4

       BeamLaser=xx3      Missile=x02
     Batteries     1                2
     Bearing       1                2

      Def: DefDm+9

       SandCaster=xx3
     Batteries      1
     Bearing        1

  Control: Computer Mod3fib*3, Heads Up Display*7, CompLink*690
    Accom: Crew=7 (2 bridge, 2 engineer, 2 gunners, 1 command),
           Staterooms=7, Env=basic env, basic ls, extended ls
    Other: Fuel=3350kl, Cargo=125kl, MissileMagazine=60kl (100b-r),
           Fuel Scoops, ObjSize=Average, EmLevel=Faint

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2778
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1991 12:26 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: RIP RE: Gyroscopic Stabalization Systems

Hi,

OOPS!  Made an error...
the 1 ton 1 meter radius gyro has an energy of 1409.9 ktons (sorry)

Lets try a .1 meter gyro with a mass of 1 kg?
Well, that's much nicer... only 282 kg of TNT!

Centripetal acceleration at rim of gyro:  394.8 billion G's

Formula: 0.5*m*(2*r*Pi*1,000,000)^2
	--------------------------- = energy of gyro in kilotons
	1.4*10^13

Centripital Acceleration
Formula: (2*r*Pi*1,000,000)^2
	-------------------
		r
Where m is the mass of the gyro, the r is the radius.

Now, your going to turn a Battle ship with a 1 kilo gyro, and simultaneously
place a 282kg bomb at the center of the spinal mount, right alongside
the main structural members of the ship?

Frankly, the engineering problems of a gyro are much MUCH greater than the
possible computer control problems of balancing thrusters in such a manner
so that when you release the controls, an auto de-spin program runs to
stop your rotation.

Even the computer monitoring systems necessary for a gyro would dwarf the
computer systems needed to calculate the ship's torque and put a minus sign
in front of it!

Actually, one could get a better result out of a gyro, by decreasing
revolutions and increasing the mass of the gyro.  But still you are
going to end up with a ship that will "wallow like a garbage scow next to
a warp driven starship..."

Think about the torque to turn a battleship, Approx 1,350,000 metric tons
of mass, with a lever arm of .1 meters...
lets say we have a spherical battleship 10 meters in diameter (a rediculously
small number we are after order of magnatude here...)

Thus, to rotate the ship at one meter per second we need to exert a force on the
gyro of 135,000,000 neutons (the equivalent weight of 13,500,000 metric tons)
with that same force, you could move the same mass at 10 G's.

Sorry Folks, unless you use a physics nullifier, it's no good.

Scott Kellogg
Put your hands on the computer screen and say:
"I BELIEVE in the Power of the HORDE!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2779
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 91 11:55:14 EDT
From: jhc@ulysses.att.COM (Jonathan Clark)
Subject: Re: Nobility in Traveller

Mike Metlay's comments about *ruling* Dukes and other high nobles
are righ on the money, but there's another possibility, that of
the *children* of such nobility. For centuries it was traditional
in the British Empire for younger sons to make a career in the
armed forces (one younger son was expected to go into the military,
another into the church, and subsequent ones would frequently follow
their brothers into the army or navy).

Such a character might have a social status of D or E, and yet be
adventuring. The positive side of this might be the wide availability
of contacts and money, balanced with having the paparrazi taking
photos of you all the time and the need to go to all those formal
balls, just to be polite. Or the character could be going around
incognito, which opens up all sorts of possibilities.

And the there are the ``black sheep'', scions of nobility who did not
live up to their families hopes and expectations and drifted into
less-than-savoury activities. Plenty of examples of them in history.
pursuits.

Jonathan Clark
jhc@ulysses.att.com, attmail!jonathan

The Englishman never enjoys himself except for some noble purpose.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2780
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1991 13:04 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Cessna Jump Trainer

Hi,
I sent this in a few days ago, but I haven't seen it appear yet, so
I am resending this.  (Hope I haven't repeated myself...)
(Hope I haven't repeated myself...)
(Hope I haven

Jump Trainer TL15 "Cessna 15-0" Class 

CraftID:	Light Jump Trainer, Type AL, TL15, MCr 11.8317
Hull:		(90/225) Disp=100, Config=6SL, Armor=40G,
		Unload=457.99, Load=1420.46
Power:		(1/2) Fusion=202.32MW, Dur=30/60
Loco:		(2/4) Maneuver=1, (2/4) Jump=1, MaxAccel=.99, NOE=190,
		Cruise=750, Max=1000, Agility=1
Comm:		Radio=System*2
Sensors:	A-EMS(Planet), P-EMS(InterPlanet)
		ActObjScn=Dif	ActObjPin=Dif	PasEnScn=Rout
Off:		HPt=1
Def:		DefDM+3
Control:	Computer Mod/1*3, HoloHUD*2, HoloLink*2
Accom:		Crew=1(Bridge/Engineer=1, Instructor=1) Stateroom=2,
		BasicEnv, BasicLS, ExtendLS, G-Plates
Other:		Fuel=207.83kl(1 jump-1+30dy), Cargo=947.93, Scoops,
		Fuel Pure=12hr, ObjSize=Avg, EmLevel=Faint
Remarks:	No Inertial Compensators.
	The Subsidiary of GSBag:  C&P Ltd has a longer history
than the that of the Imperium.  In 262, the Corporate
Headquarters was moved to Capitol, where they continued to build
their series of trainer ships and vehicles.  Cessna & Piper Ltd
has millenia of experience in the field of trainer design.
	Recently, the demand for new trainers has decreased due to
the fact that there are many many such craft still in service. 
The market is full, and while the demand for such craft is
strong, the economic factors come in.  Who will buy a Cessna
Model 15-0, built in 1121 when one built in 1102 can be bought
for substantially less?
	The ship normally does not carry cargo, but it can carry a
substantial amount if so desired.  Many models have had their
cargo bays modified with staterooms in its place.
	The Cessna is a tail sitter, this combined with the 1G
engines make the inertial compensators unnecessary.
	Two pilot's stations are installed.  Either one can take
full control of the ship.  The ship could be said to have an
auxillury bridge, were the pilots not side by side.
	Probably half the private pilots in the Imperium, and more
than a few military pilots first soloed in a C&P 15-0.

Scott Kellogg
Hasta La Viesta... Hordie...
- -Arnold ShartzenHorder, from the film H-2

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2781
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1991 13:13 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Re: Please remove me...

John Kominetz wants out...

The Horde must have got him...

Scott
Help!  The Horde!

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2782
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 1991 13:36 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Re: Agility

Unless, I read this wrong, we've finally reached an agreement on the
value of the new agility calculations!

Ahh!  Diplomacy works across the pond!

Mike Melay asked for a consensus for TDR, well, I think we have one now.

Scott Kellogg
Heil Horde!

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2783
Subject: Re: Nobility
Date: Fri, 16 Aug 91 14:03:54 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.WR>


I had the rare occasion to talk to Gary Thomas this week.  I mentioned
some of the TML discussions lately, and the nobility topic in particular
interested him.  I thought I'd paraphrase a little of his personal
interpretation of Social Standing in Traveller.

Gary said that he always felt Social Standing was *always* a relative,
not absolute, measure.  He also suggested that Social Standing is
volatile (always changing) depending upon its scope of recognition and
where it is being applied.

That is, an Earl could be the Earl of Duckburg, or the Earl of Regina
Subsector.  In fact, in Traveller Digest #4 he said he wrote an
adventure about a Marquis that tended to overstate his importance,
leading to some comedy.  Or maybe back in the lineage of the character,
there was a very influential ancestor (Duke of a Sector) and over the
generations it has been whittled down to next-to-nothing, but the title
"Duke" still exists.

Consider the Governor of the State of New York (Soc up there somewhere).
In Buffalo, he's going to paid a lot of attention (Soc = ~D).  If he's
in Paris, he's for all practicable purposes just another tourist Kilroy,
and his influence probably depends on how much money he has, how he
dresses and talks (Soc = ~5).  Vargr are an even more volatile example
of the same changing degree of social recognition.

How important is the TML Admin title regarded on the TML (Soc = F)? In a
USENET newsgroup for mail admin discussion (Soc = 8)? At a local
restaurant (Soc = 5)?

So, I'd guess that the Referee and player ought to come to agreement on
how to interpret a character of high Social Standing.  It means they are
influential, but the influence is limited to something appropriate for
game purposes.  Outside of their sphere of influence, their Social
Standing is practicably moderate to low.

I'd also guess that the player has a degree of leeway as to their
character's personality, whether it be an isolated, concieted blueblood,
or a practical, down-to-earth, gun-toting Earl of Kearney from Britain
on Terra.

As always, Traveller is a guidebook, not a rulebook.  In their own
games, Referees have a local Social Standing equal to The Almighty, and
players that of Demigods.  :-)

James "Duke of Debuque" Perkins :-)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Traveller Mailing List Administrator	     James T Perkins @ Tektronix, Inc
traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com	     Beaverton, Oregon, USA
    "How many ancients can dance on the head of a pin?" - Scott Kellogg

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2784
Date:    Fri, 16 Aug 91 18:05 CDT
From: Bob Koester <ASTRJKPA@UIAMVS.BITNET>
Subject:  Thanks and Dukes

   First of all, thank you TML for the errata and FTP instructions.  My
Megatraveller set is suddenly something I can actually use.
   Concerning nobles, in my campaign they stand as something of a cross
between the United States Senator (representing the planet to the Imperium)
and the French prefect (representing the Imperium to the planet).  The
advantage of this is that both the Imperium and the planet can (and
probably would like to) operate without the noble intermediary, and thus
although the noble's title is hereditary, his power is based in large part on
personal effort.  Thus on one planet the baron may be a recluse who
stays in orbit most of the time and whose minnions are only seen when there is
piracy to be battled, while in another the noble may have managed to become
the ruler of the planetary government, while another might be a frightened
weakling willing to play nice with the local megacorp officials in exchange
for a sumptuous lifestyle, and yet another (say, in the pre-rebellion Solomani
Rim) may be the direct executor of Imperial authority over the populace.
   A player-noble in my milieu _ALWAYS_ starts out as an heir.  They are also,
coincidentally, always involved in a succession conflict, as this leads to
fun play and make loyal followers (other players) indispensable to the
noble PC.  I see nothing wrong with a PC being an heir sewing his wild oats.
I always pictured the Navy officer corps as the place where the children of the
gentry learn discipline and skill (replacing squiredom and knighthood, perhaps)
and a little Travelling might be seen as teaching self-reliance.
   As for fears that the heir might be considered so valuable that he would
never be allowed to Travel, I assume that the more noble families keep there
nurseries well stocked for just such a purpose.  The world of traveller, unlike
that of Dune, for example, seems to have no big qualms about artificial
conception making one child families such as the Atredies not only unnecessary
but downright unwise.  In other words, munch all you want, we'll make more!
   Once bonnie prince mercenary inherits, of course, the campaign MUST be
transformed.  For me, this is no problem.  My players were getting tired of
the worms-eye-view of the universe anyway, and were glad to hit the big
leagues.  And there's still plenty of adventure to be had, even in a non-
rebellion setting.  The Travellers have simply become there own patrons.
And a former merchant, now become a Count's chancellor, can use those trade &
commerce rules like nobody's business.  And for the especially ambitious there
is always the way of Dulinor (the years of secrecy and planning leading to
an attempt like his would make great play), and in the time of the Rebellion
the situation is wide open.

   An alternative, for those who wish to keep the traveller's relatively
poor and desperate, could be the Pendragon(tm) Noble's book approach, which
is twofold:  the new noble becomes GM (and occasional patron) of the others
(the former GM getting a rest) until that noble's child comes of age.  This is,
of course, only suitable for adventures on a pretty sweeping time-scale.


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2785
Subject: Re: Cessna/Piper Trainer
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 91 18:15:23 PDT
From: Richard Johnson <richard@agora.rain.COM>

Excerpts from Scott Kellog's C-15-0 trainer:

:Power:		(1/2) Fusion=202.32MW, Dur=30/60

  'bout time they did away with that old Lycoming/Pratt&Whitney
  thing they used to power 'em with.  What's the MTBO?


: C&P Ltd has a longer history than the that of the Imperium.

  It was tough going for a while there, during the "litigiousness
  era" when liability insurance costs put Piper into bankruptcy 
  allowed the buyout by Cessna.  Some historians claim that it
  was only the advent of interplanetary flight that saved the
  Terran aerospace industry.



:Who will buy a Cessna
:Model 15-0, built in 1121 when one built in 1102 can be bought
:for substantially less?

   Someone who doesn't want ot pay for all that *rented* time
   on the hull?
   
:	Probably half the private pilots in the Imperium, and more
:than a few military pilots first soloed in a C&P 15-0.

   Can the new models still do low-altitude atmospheric spins?
   
- -- 
Lucan is a Pansy!                                     Richard Johnson
The TML is a joke.                             richard@agora.rain.com


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2786
Date: Sat, 17 Aug 1991 05:06 EST
From: "Alvin M. Chan" <CHAN93%SNYBUFVA.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject: tongue in cheek remarks (insert 8-) everywhere

>James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.WR>
>Subject: (2783) Re: Nobility
>Reply-To: traveller-request@metolius.WR.TEK.COM (TML Administrator)

...some preceeding info about Gary Thomas and his comments on soc. standing
        deleted...

Sorry folks, but I cant resist responding to this!

>Consider the Governor of the State of New York (Soc up there somewhere).
>In Buffalo, he's going to paid a lot of attention (Soc = ~D).  If he's
>in Paris, he's for all practicable purposes just another tourist Kilroy,
>and his influence probably depends on how much money he has, how he
>dresses and talks (Soc = ~5).  Vargr are an even more volatile example
>of the same changing degree of social recognition.

oh, i dont know... around here Cuomo may be often mentioned with an
introductory clause such as "There's that *&^%($#@!! Cuomo %(^*$^*!!" 8-)
or else, the apathy level around here is so high that he MAY rate a
"ho hum, yawn, who did you say that was?"  heck, a number
of presidents rolled on thru here (Reagan for sure, I think Ford also,
I did attend a guest lecture by Jimmy Carter in 1989.  I dont think these
were situations where the city shut down to 'ooh and ahh'.  It was funny
to watch the secret service people hovering around like bees, even in the
arena where Carter spoke, there were about 40 of them looking alert, although
they weren't swivel-heading like rotating fans.

>How important is the TML Admin title regarded on the TML (Soc = F)? In a
>USENET newsgroup for mail admin discussion (Soc = 8)? At a local
>restaurant (Soc = 5)?

pretty damn high in my book, encyclopedia galactica etc..someone
wipe out those snooty maitre d's!!

    _________________________________________________________________________
   // Alvin M. Chan -Buffalo State College (Graduated! Summa Cum Laude 4.0)//\
  // Information Systems Management     BITNET == CHAN93@snybufva.BITNET  //  \
 // Computer Information Systems       DECNET == SBUFVA::CHAN93          //   /
//______________________________________________________________________//   /
\\  .. .  .   .    .     .      .       .        .         .          . \\  /
 \\______________________________________________________________________\\/

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2787
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1991 19:10 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Merchant Cruiser:  Adda Dubsar

"Adda Dubsar" Class Merchant TL 15

CraftID:	Merchant Cruiser Type QCA, TL15, MCr 266.446
		(Carried Craft not included)
Hull:	(1192/2980) Disp=1250, Config=2SL, Armor=40G,
		Unload=5090, Load=14601
Power:	(19/37) Fusion=4872.23MW, Dur=30/60
Loco:	(23/45) Maneuver=1, (45/90) Jump=3, MaxAccel=1.2,
		NOE=190, Cruise=750, Max=1000, Agility=1
Comm:	Radio=System*2
Sensors:	A-EMS(FarOrb), P-EMS(InterStel),
		Densiomter=250m, Neutrino=10kw
		ActObjScn=Rout	ActObjPin=Rout
		PasObjScn=Rout	PasObjPin=Rout
		PasEnScn=Simp	PasEnPin=Rout
Off:		HPt=1
		BLaser=xx4
		Batt		3
		Bear		3
Def:		DefDM+4
Control:	Computer Mod3*3, LrgHoloDisp, HoloLink*14
Accom:	Crew=16(Cmd=2, Bridge=2, Engineer=3, Gunner=4, Medic=1,
		Flight=2, Steward=1, Maintain=1) Stateroom=16,
		BasicEnv, BasicLS, ExtendLS, G-Plates, I-Comps
Other:	Fuel=5129(1 jump-3+30dy), Cargo=9153Kl, Scoops,
		Fuel Pure=48hr, Subcraft=40ton Pinnace,
		ObjSize=Lrg, EmLevel=Mod
Remarks:  The Adda Dubsar was a Kinunir class cruiser first laid
down in 292-1087.  The ship was ordered scrapped in 1087, and the
ship lay rusting as an animal habitat in General Shipyards scrap
heap until Oberlindes lines began showing an interest in the
completed hull in 1105.
	In 1106 Oberlindes made a bid of 1 million Cr for the
scrapped hulk.  The offer was taken as General had no plans for
the hulk.  The 63 MCr hull was then referbished as a merchant
ship.  Some of its fuel tanks were converted into cargo capacity,
but if left empty of cargo can easily be filled with fuel for an
additional 4167Kl of fuel.  This can increase the range of the
ship to 2 jump-3+43 days endurance.
	The cruiser is armed as most of Oberlindes Lines ships are,
but its armament has never been tried in combat.  It seems that,
faced with an Imperial cruiser, most corsairs tend to run. 
Though there has been a case where the Imperial Cruiser Luuru was
attacked by a lone corsair.  It seems that they mistook the Luuru
for the Adda Dubsar.

Classified:  Since this incident, all Kinunir class cruisers have
had their transponders adjusted so that they may broadcast that
of the Adda Dubsar.  Oberlindes Lines obtained a profitable
freight contract from the Navy in exchange for permission to use
the Adda Dubsar's code.  In the bargain the Adda Dubsar has
permission to use the code of the Imperial Colonial Cruiser
Agidda.  (The code is slightly modified for proper identification
to Naval Vessels).  The Adda Dubsar's freight contract calls for
it to only call upon systems with Naval Bases, thus appearing to
suppliment the Naval forces in the area.  The ship lands at the
base and has it's cargo delivered there.  Thus no one knows of
the merchant's true presence.

The MegaTrav plans to the Kinunir class are in Challenge 38 p28

Scott Kellogg

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2788
Date: Sun, 18 Aug 1991 19:11 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: X-Boat Flash:  Scouts grounded!

FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH FLASH

Regina/Spinward Marches							190-1121
The Imperial Scout Service has grounded all Type S scouts
manufactured by General Shipyards.  All ships are to have their
spaceworthiness certificate removed and placed in the custody of
Starport Control wherever they may be.  Scouts have been found to
have been constructed with substandard hull materials.
	This hull deficiency has resulted in a 2% increase in cancer
in ship crews due to radiation exposure.  Gas giant
skimming has caused hull failures in many ships after repeated
exposure to pressures.  The armor has been found to be
substandard in its ability to withstand damage in combat.  The
hull will not stand up to it's rated depth of 495 meters of water
at 1G and has been known to collapse if taken to that depth
repeatedly.
	The numbers of the affected scouts is not known.  But serial
numbers are being analyzed by personnel from the Scout Service.
	Dr. Hloch, a naval architect for the Scout Service has
stated that the hull defects were found by modelling the ships
stated top acceleration of 3G's against known structural Scout
models.  The Scout ships in question are much lighter than any
Scout has a right to be.  In addition, the added acceleration has
been known to cause buckling in the hulls plates.

Regina/Spinward Marches							190-1121
A spokesneut for General Shipyards denied all responsibility for
the grounding of the Scout ships of their manufacture. They
claimed that the Scout hulls were manufactured by the
subcontractor:  Spinward Superdense, and that the sole
responsibility for the hull warrenty is their problem.  Ship
owners are directed to Spinward Superdense for recompense for the
grounding of their ships.  Spinward Superdense could not be
contacted for comment, but it was found that the company filed
for bankruptcy five hours before the official notice went out
grounding the Scout ships.

Regina/Spinward Marches							191-1121
An unidentified source in the Scout Service has said that there
have been talks at high levels concerning the purchase of the
substandard Scouts produced by General/Spinward Superdense at
1/10th manufacturing cost for use as spares by the Scout Service.

These rumors were denied by a spokesvargr for the Scout Service.

Scout/Courier TL15

CraftID:	Scout/Courier Type S, TL15, MCr 37.46279
Hull:	(90/225) Disp=100, Config=2SL, Armor=39G,
		Unload=457.99, Load=1420.46
Power:	(2/4) Fusion=426.63MW, Dur=30/60
Loco:	(5/9) Maneuver=2, (3/6) Jump=2, MaxAccel=3, NOE=190,
		Cruise=750, Max=1000, Agility=3
Comm:	Radio=System
Sensors:	EMM, A-EMS(FarOrb), P-EMS(InterStel),
		Densiomter=1km, Neutrino=10kw
		ActObjScn=Rout	ActObjPin=Rout
		PasObjScn=Rout	PasObjPin=Rout
		PasEnScn=Simp	PasEnPin=Rout
Off:		HPt=1
Def:		DefDM+5
Control:Computer Mod/1bis*3, HoloHUD, HoloLink*46
Accom:	Crew=1(Bridge/Engineer=1) Stateroom=4,
		BasicEnv, BasicLS, ExtendLS, G-Plates, I-Comps
Other:	Fuel=356kl(1 jump-1+30dy), Cargo=497, Scoops,
		Fuel Pure=12hr, ObjSize=Avg, EmLevel=None

Scott Kellogg

PS
Was it Metlay that mentioned 'A Vargr Kind of Love'?

When I'm feelin' blue,
All I have to do
Is bark a bit at you.
Then I'm not so blue.

When I bite your (...)
Nothing seems to matter.
If the worlds would shatter
I don't care.

Wouldn't you agree,
Baby, you and me
Got a Vargr kind of Love...

Recorded in 1115 by Turez and the Horde
{Apologies to Wayne Fontana and the Mindbenders...}
{Young philistines know the cover by Phil Collins}

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2789
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: General Products
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 91 9:59:18 BST

KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
> The Imperial Scout Service has grounded all Type S scouts
> manufactured by General Shipyards.  All ships are to have their
> spaceworthiness certificate removed and placed in the custody of
> Starport Control wherever they may be.  Scouts have been found to
> have been constructed with substandard hull materials.

I wonder how long General Shipyards will remain in business?  After this
incident, and their participation in the Kinunir class (four ships, none
satisfactory), if I were in charge of Naval procurement I'd refuse to
have anything to do with them.  Does the president of G.S. have high-ranking
connections?  (Such as a brother in Sirius Cybernetics.)

Perhaps General Shipyards were responsible for the Type S scout/courier whose
deck plans appeared in Supplement 7, Traders and Gunboats, in the Classic
Traveller series.  Those plans were lacking a few minor details, such as
computer and power plant.

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2790
From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Subject: Machinetools (introduction)
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 91 13:33:46 MET DST

  A little background: This is the first installment of a series longer than
I dare think about:) containing MegaTraveller weapons redone in 3G and converted
to MegaTraveller. 
  One thing that should be expected is that the penetration figures will be
superior for high-powered weapons, which I hope will offset the 'My weapon
won't penetrate my own armor' syndrome.

  On the conversion: I arrived at the penetration figures by computing the 
thickness of armor quality steel that a certain weapon should penetrate and 
then converting this to MegaTraveller penetration by using the table in Striker.
(The amount of armor plate steel that a certain armor factor represents is
 equal to the weight and price mod of that armor factor as found in point 9,
 Refs Handbook, page 63. In Striker that table had the heading cm where it now
 has 'mod' but the article on radiation in TD#14 (?) supports that it still
 means cm.
 The penetrations in DV are randomly determines, and I have based the MegaT
 penetration figures on 1/3rd between exact average and the maximum, to 
 reflect that the weapon often should penetrate this armor factor.)

  The Table below lists what 3G Damage Value the various armor values
correspond to:

ARMOR	DV		ARMOR	DV
1	14		61	11197
2	27		62	12225
3	41		63	13360
4	54		64	14550
5	68		65	15849
6	81		66	17309
7	95		67	18878
8	108		68	20609
9	122		69	22448
10	135		70	24503
11	149		71	26721
12	162		72	29101
13	176		73	31751
14	191		74	34618
15	209		75	37755
16	227		76	41163
17	248		77	44895
18	270		78	48952
19	295		79	53388
20	322		80	58418
21	351		81	63286
22	382		82	69236
23	417		83	75727
24	455		84	82218
25	496		85	89791
26	541		86	97905
27	590		87	106559
28	644		88	116295
29	703		89	127114
30	763		90	138473
31	833		91	150914
32	909		92	164436
33	990		93	179582
34	1082		94	195809
35	1179		95	213659
36	1287		96	233132
37	1396		97	254227
38	1531		98	276945
39	1666		99	301827
40	1785		100	329414
41	1985		101	359164
42	2164		102	391618
43	2358		103	427318
44	2575		104	465723
45	2807		105	506291
46	3062		106	551727
47	3337		107	605818
48	3640		108	659909
49	3970		109	659909
50	4327		110	784318
51	4717		111	784318
52	5144		112	930364
53	5625		113	930364
54	6112		114	1108864
55	6653		115	1108864
56	7302		116	1319818
57	7951		117	1319818
58	8655		118	1568636
59	9412		119	1568636
60	10277		120	1860727

   Ironmongery: The weapons below has been done for each of the TLs where they
appear. I have assumed that a certain technology (for example cased rounds as
opposed caseless ammo) will linger on for one TL after the new technology has
appeared. Certain TL's are duplicated in 3G (for example, MegaT TL 7 and 8 are
both represented by the 3G TL 11) and won't be included.

  The data given are the standard MegaTraveller data for weapons, plus lenght,
weight and price (Prc) figures. I assume that 1kg is equal to 1liter in volume.
The weights given for the weapons are without ammunition and clips, but 
revolvers include the weight of the drum, but not the individual rounds.

  Data on separate drums are given if additional drums are to be purchased.

  Ammunition data are for the various different types. 'Lead' is standard
jacketed lead projectiles. 'AP' is solid steel armor piercing rounds. 
'DS' is sub calibre discarding sabot rounds, 'APDS' is the latter combined with
a solid steel or tungsten core. 'HP' is hollow point soft/nosed bullets.

  Additional data after price is data that is not normally used in the 
standard MegaTraveller combat system. I'll get back to this in an subsequent
installment.

  Ammunition is *not* compatible across TL lines, and most probably not between
systems either. Standaridized weapons *of a certain TL* that are compatible
between systems can be bought for 1.5 the cost at the large outlets for 
Interstellarms or similar companies, or at 3 times the cost if bought at
the starport shops. 

  This first installment includes 5mm, 7mm, 9mm, and 9mm Magnum revolvers for
the TLs 5-9. I have assumed that a caseless revolver is a silly idea, so
no revolver designs for TLs above 9 will be forthcoming. If anyone disagrees
with this: mail me.

  Comments are always welcome.

- -bertil-
- -- 
"Med ett sjyst ja"rnro"r sla^r man va"rlden med ha"pnad!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2791
From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Subject: Machinetools 1
Date: Mon, 19 Aug 91 13:36:19 MET DST

   Machinetools1: Revolvers TL 5-9

Revolver 5mm

TL Ammo Rds P/A Dmg Rng Aut Dng Sig Recl  Diff Len Wt   Prc  Fail In  A I/D
5  Lead  6  0/-  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.1 0.35 58   0.50 +4  2 1/1
   Drum  6                                         0.06 14
   Lead  6  0/-  3                                 0.01 0.7
6  Lead  6  0/-  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.1 0.35 60   0.50 +4  1 1/1
   Drum  6                                         0.07 15
   Lead  6  0/-  3                                 0.01 0.7
   AP    6  1/1  2                                 0.01 1.4
7  Lead  6  0/-  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.1 0.35  62   0.50 +4  1 1/1
   Drum  6                                         0.07 15
   Lead  6  0/-  3                                 0.01 0.7
   AP    6  1/1  2                                 0.01 1.4
9  Lead  6  0/-  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.1 0.35  66   0.50 +4  1 1/1
   Drum  6                                         0.06 16
   Lead  6  0/-  3                                 0.01 0.7
   AP    6  1/1  2                                 0.01 1.4
   APDS  6  2/1  2                                 0.01 4.2


Revolver 7mm

TL Ammo Rds P/A Dmg Rng Aut Dng Sig Recl  Diff Len Wt   Prc  Fail In  A I/D
5  Lead  6  1/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.1 0.75 69   0.50 +3 2 1/1
   Drum  6                                         0.17 17
   Lead  6  1/2  3                                 0.04 0.8
6  Lead  6  1/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.1 0.65 69   0.50 +3 2 1/1
   Drum  6                                         0.14 17
   Lead  6  1/2  3                                 0.04 0.8
7  Lead  6  1/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.1 0.55 69   0.50 +3 1 1/1
   Drum  6                                         0.12 17
   Lead  6  1/2  3                                 0.04 0.8
9  Lead  6  1/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.1 0.45 68   0.50 +3 1 1/1
   Drum  6                                         0.08 17
   Lead  6  2/2  3                                 0.03 0.7
   APDS  6  2/2  3                                 0.01 4.2


Revolver 9mm

TL Ammo Rds P/A Dmg Rng Aut Dng Sig Recl  Diff Len Wt   Prc  Fail In  A I/D
4  Lead  6  2/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.2 1.80 246  0.50 +1 2 1/2
   Drum  6                                         0.60 60
   Lead  6  2/2  3                                 0.13 1.6
5  Lead  6  2/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.2 1.60 250  0.50 +1 2 1/2
   Drum  6                                         0.50 61
   Lead  6  2/2  3                                 0.11 1.5
6  Lead  6  2/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.2 1.45 255  0.50 +2 2 1/2
   Drum  6                                         0.40 63
   Lead  6       3                                 0.09 1.3
   AP    6  3/2  3                                 0.07 2.6
7  Lead  6  2/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.2 1.20 250  0.50 +2 2 1/2
   Drum  6                                         0.30 61
   Lead  6  2/2  3                                 0.08 1.2
   AP    6  3/2  3                                 0.06 2.4
9  Lead  6  2/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.2 1.00 251  0.50 +2 2 1/2
   Drum  6                                         0.26 62
   Lead  6  2/2  3                                 0.08 1.1
   AP    6  3/2  3                                 0.05 2.2
   DS    6  4/2  3                                 0.05 3.3
   APDS  6  5/2  3                                 0.03 6.6


Revolver 9mm Magnum

TL Ammo Rds P/A Dmg Rng Aut Dng Sig Recl  Diff Len Wt   Prc  Fail In  A I/D
5  Lead  6  3/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.2 1.73 815  0.75 +1 2 1/2
   Drum  6                                         0.80 199
   Lead  6  3/2  3                                 0.16 2.7
6  Lead  6  3/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.2 1.52 825  0.75 +1 2 1/2
   Drum  6                                         0.65 202
   Lead  6  3/2  3                                 0.14 2.5
   HP    6  2/2  4                                 0.14 3.8
   AP    6  4/2  3                                 0.11 5.0
7  Lead  6  3/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.2 1.38 846  0.50 +2 2 1/2
   Drum  6                                         0.56 207
   Lead  6  3/2  3                                 0.12 2.2
   HP    6  2/2  4                                 0.12 3.3
   AP    6  4/2  3                                 0.11 4.4
9  Lead  6  3/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.2 1.18 847  0.50 +2 2 1/2
   Drum  6                                         0.45 207
   Lead  6  3/2  3                                 0.10 2.0
   HP    6  2/2  4                                 0.12 3.0
   AP    6  4/2  3                                 0.08 4.0
   DS    6  5/2  3                                 0.06 6.0
   APDS  6  6/2  3                                 0.06 12

- -bertil-
PS: Does anyone of the ftp sites want this? If so, which one?
- -- 
"Med ett sjyst ja"rnro"r sla^r man va"rlden med ha"pnad!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2792
Date:     Mon, 19 Aug 91 14:22:58 EDT
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Re:  Machinetools (introduction) (fwd)

In your letter dated Mon, 19 Aug 91 13:45:19 MET DST, you wrote:
> 
>   Well, here it is. Greg Porter mentioned that each average DV (ie DV/5.5)
> corresponds to 4/17 mm of armor quality steel, and I computed the table below 
> from that. 

> > ARMOR	DV		ARMOR	DV
> > 1	14		61	11197
> > 2	27		62	12225
> > 3	41		63	13360
> > 4	54		64	14550

I just checked BTRC's TimeLords game to see what kind of values they assign
to personal armor.  The best currently available personal armor runs about 
AV40--which means that our basic 'cloth' armor ought to be a 2, military
cloth a 3, and a flak jacket a 1...using numbers like that would make things
a little more reasonable for the machine gunners, don't you think?

At those sorts of numbers, a TL10 combat environment suit might be worth
a 3 or a 4, a set of early combat armor worth a 5, and a set of TL15
battledress worth maybe 7 or 8.

Rob Dean


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2793
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re:  Machinetools (introduction) (fwd)
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 91 14:55:12 MET DST

> I just checked BTRC's TimeLords game to see what kind of values they assign
> to personal armor.  The best currently available personal armor runs about 
> AV40--which means that our basic 'cloth' armor ought to be a 2, military
> cloth a 3, and a flak jacket a 1...using numbers like that would make things
> a little more reasonable for the machine gunners, don't you think?

  Well, either method should be ok, but I wouldn't use them togeather, because
I was forced to up the powder load in some pistol shells to reach the stated
minimum penetration (according to Vanilla MegaT). The trouble with changing the
armors is that it is hard to predict what armor value the various hitech ones
would get, since we don't have any 3A (Armors! Armors! Armors!) :)

  I think that the relation between the MegaT armors and the 'Machinetools'
guns are close to what I think is realism: All variants of the 9mm and heavier
revolvers will penetrate heavy cloathing (jack and mesh) but will be stopped
by a flak jacket (factor 3). AP rounds will penetrate a flak jacket but will
be stopped by cloth (factor 5) which I've always interpreted as roughly
equivalent to modern body armors with cheramic plates inlayed.

  The TL9 magnum will penetrate that with DS or APDS rounds, but I'm not aware
of *any* modern revolver or pistol round that use discarding sabots (but there
might be, since I havent read the Janes Infantry Weapons for a number of years:(

> At those sorts of numbers, a TL10 combat environment suit might be worth
> a 3 or a 4, a set of early combat armor worth a 5, and a set of TL15
> battledress worth maybe 7 or 8.
 
> Rob Dean

- -bertil-
- -- 
"Med ett sjyst ja"rnro"r sla^r man va"rlden med ha"pnad!"

------------------------------

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Date: Sun Aug 25 21:00:11 PDT 1991
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #229: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
2794  20-Aug-91 cch2@ra.msstate.e KE weapons: late addition << In response to t
2795  21-Aug-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Machinetools 2 << Machinetools 2: Automatic P
2796  21-Aug-91 Adrian Hurt       Re: KE weapons: late addition << cch2@ra.msst
2797  21-Aug-91 "Robert S. Dean"  Agility, One Last Time << I wish I could repo
2798  21-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au High Speed Projectiles, One Last Time << Hi, 
2799  21-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Planetary Bombardment << I just remembered a 
2800  21-Aug-91 "Robert S. Dean"  World Descriptions << I just uploaded my late
2801  21-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Re: Agility, One Last Time << Hi, Want to hea
2802  21-Aug-91 Mike.Metlay@ORGAN On ignoring Conservation of Energy << I'll ke
2803  22-Aug-91 grue@cs.uq.oz.au  Some thoughts about disintegrators << hi, Thi
2804  22-Aug-91 Adrian Hurt       Hordes of agility << "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean
2805  22-Aug-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Agility, One Last Time << > I wish I coul
2806  21-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Jump Trainer Cessna 15-0 II << Hi, I sent thi
2807  21-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Starship Minimum Size << A question: In class
2808  22-Aug-91 chk@alias.COM     2300AD is hard science fiction? Hah! << > Rem
2809  23-Aug-91 John Lusk         2300AD as hard science << > Actually, there's

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2794
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 91 15:49:16 CDT
From: cch2@ra.msstate.edu (John Steven Higginbotham)
Subject: KE weapons: late addition

In response to the long, painful discussion of KE, PE, and Kinetic Kill
weapons (read guns);

1)  Why do so many reasonably educated people always assume that our present
level of knowledge in physics is true and correct in every way?  Did we
develop a unified field theory while I was asleep last semester?  Has 'God'
told us that we have achieved perfection?  Hmmm?

Point being, you are all treating Conservation of Energy as Gospel.  It may be
true under all conditions (actually, we suspect that it is not.  According to
Hawking's speculations about naked singularities, conservation of energy 
does not apply in their vicinity), but that is not really any more likely 
than that Einstein's Theories will stand the test of time (note that it's 
predecessor failed the test of time - it turned out to be a special case). 
Why couldn't CofE be a special case?
And why can't the excess energy needed to make your numbers come out right
come from Superspace, or be extracted from the Universal gravitational field,
or something equally unlikely.  We (or at least I) don't know the limit of the
possible, so why not assume that MT maneuver drives work as described?

As to the problems in maintaining MT's pretty picture, we (my wife and I) have
been fiddling with that problem for years (since Traveller came out).  Almost
NONE of the MT picture makes sense without being massaged with a club.  The
"conquest" of Glisten is ludicrous.  The assumption that there is any
limitation on fuel availability is almost equally so.  
Remember that MT is supposed to be 'space opera', not hard scifi.  If you want
hard scifi, use 2300AD, or create your own universe.  Stop trying to bludgeon
MT to make it fit.

2) Kinetic kill weapons are wonderfully lethal things, aren't they?  Their use
against planets is restricted by the following: 

  a)  planets have bigger and better sensor nets than ships can have (unless
the ships are the size of the Skylark of Valeron or DQ).  They almost
certainly maintain a sky-watch to locate and neutralize such things.  After
all, a dinosaur killer can be an accident, much less an attack.

  b)  ALL major bodies ( > 10meters diameter) should be located and monitored
for orbital changes.  It helps with traffic control in those busy systems
anyway, and keeps loons from bombing you into the stone age, eh?

  c)  planetary defenses can deal with these things to a certain extent.  If a
rock moving 0.1c is located at the edge of the system (it probably is not TOO
much closer than that - it takes 5,625,000,000Km to go from 0.05c to 0.1 c at
6Gs), the defense force has over 5 hours to react.  Plenty of time to
intercept (your ships can move 9,000,000+Km in that time), or just eliminate
with a meson gun or nuke.

Yes, yes.  The energy will still be there, and it will still hit the
atmosphere as hot plasma.  life is tough all over.  That's why the defense
force gets paid the big bucks.  To stop this before it gets out of hand.

Yes, kinetic kill weapons can be used against planets.  If you assume good
planetary sensors, then the ship launching them will be spotted looong before
it gets up to speed.  It should be destroyed soon after (still long before it
gets to speed).  And if the launcher starts from out in the deep dark, it
better aim real well now, hadn't it?  not much mid-course correction available
on a rock.and a miss by 3 meters is just as good as no launch at all.




Let's try a new thread.  We have been trying to determine the effect that
densitometers have on a high TL battlefield.  According to MT, artificial grav
stands out like a sore thumb on a densitometer.  So what allows anyone to use
grav vehicles, when they can be detected and eliminated by a
densitometer/meson gun combo on the other side of the planet?  Why doesn't
everyone use tracks/wheels/air-cushions?  Any ideas?  Any design philosophies
for vehicles and military forces that take neutrino detectors/densitometers
into account?

                                    JSH.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2795
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Machinetools 2
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 91 11:41:34 MET DST

  Machinetools 2: Automatic Pistols TL 5-15

  As before, the weight and cost for the clip don't include ammunition, and the
gun does include the weight or cost for the clip either. I am assuming that 
AP ammo for small arms appear at TL6, DS and APDS at TL9.

  On the funny numbers: Fail is the percentage chance that something other than
what the user thinks will happen happens when the trigger is pulled. 'In' is the
modifyer applied to the tactics points pool for that person only when 
determining who shoots first (aka 'Initiative'). 'A' is the armor value of the
gun and 'I/D' is the incapacitated/destroyed hits levels for the gun.
  They are ofcourse highly optional.
  
Body Pistol 5mm 

  I assume that silencers for bodypistols weigh and cost as much as the gun 
itself. The price of the bodypistols has got an extra 2x multiplier to reflect
that they are constructed to be hard to detect.

TL Item Rds P/A Dmg Rng Aut Dng Sig Recl  Diff Len  Wt   Prc  Fail In  A I/D
8  Gun   6  0/-  3  Med  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.10 0.20 1003 0.50 +4  1 1/1
   Clip  6                                          0.01 25
   Lead  6  0/-  3                                  0.01 0.7
   AP    6  1/1  2                                  0.01 1.4

9  Gun   6  0/-  3  Med  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.10 0.13 1029 0.50 +4  1 1/1
   Clip  6                                          0.00 25
   Lead  6  0/-  3                                  0.01 0.7
   AP    6  1/1  2                                  0.01 1.4
   APDS  6  2/1  2                                  0.01 4.2


Automatic Pistol 7mm

TL Item Rds P/A Dmg Rng Aut Dng Sig Recl  Diff Len  Wt   Prc  Fail In  A I/D
6  Gun  15  1/2  3  Med  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.15 0.53 279  0.50 +3  2 1/1
   Clip 15                                          0.02 11
   Lead 15                                          0.08 1.8

7  Gun  15  1/2  3  Med  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.15 0.45 277  0.50 +3  1 1/1
   Clip 15                                          0.02 11
   Lead 15                                          0.08 1.8

9  Gun  15  1/2  3  Med  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.15 0.43 288  0.50 +3  1 1/1
   Clip 15                                          0.02 11
   Lead 15                                          0.08 1.8
   DS   15  2/2  3                                  0.03 5.4
   APDS 15  3/2  3                                  0.03 11


Automatic Pistol 9mm

TL Item Rds P/A Dmg Rng Aut Dng Sig Recl  Diff Len  Wt   Prc  Fail In  A I/D
5  Gun  15  2/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.20 1.83 506  0.50 +1  2 1/2
   Clip 15                                          0.05 20
   Lead 15  2/2  3                                  0.24 3.3

6  Gun  15  2/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.20 1.53 501  0.50 +1  2 1/2
   Clip 15                                          0.04 19
   Lead 15  2/2  3                                  0.21 3.0
   AP   15  3/2  3                                  0.16 6.0

7  Gun  15  2/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.20 1.35 502  0.50 +2  2 1/2
   Clip 15                                          0.04 19
   Lead 15  2/2  3                                  0.20 2.9
   AP   15  3/2  3                                  0.15 5.7

9  Gun  15  2/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.20 1.16 502  0.50 +2  2 1/2
   Clip 15                                          0.04 19
   Lead 15  2/2  3                                  0.19 2.8
   AP   15  3/2  3                                  0.14 5.6
   DS   15  4/2  3                                  0.08 8.4
   APDS 15  5/2  3                                  0.08 17


Automatic Pistol 9mm Caseless

  I have assumed that, due to recoil purposes, a loaded weight of 1kg is minimum
for a 9mm automatic pistol. Therefore the TL14 and 15 pistols have extra weights
in them, 105g at TL14 and 230g at TL15 which can be replaced by laser point 
sights, smartgun options, gyros and so on.

TL Item Rds P/A Dmg Rng Aut Dng Sig Recl  Diff Len  Wt   Prc  Fail In  A I/D
8  Gun  30  2/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.15 1.26 506  0.50 +2  2 1/1
   Clip 30                                          0.07 27
   Lead 30  2/2  3                                  0.34 12
   AP   30  3/2  3                                  0.23 25

9  Gun  30  2/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.15 1.10 501  0.50 +2  2 1/1
   Clip 30                                          0.07 27
   Lead 30  2/2  3                                  0.34 12
   AP   30  3/2  3                                  0.23 24
   DS   30  4/2  3                                  0.11 36
   APDS 30  5/2  3                                  0.11 72

10 Gun  30  2/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.15 0.94 502  0.50 +2  1 1/1
   Clip 30                                          0.07 28
   Lead 30  2/2  3                                  0.34 12
   AP   30  3/2  3                                  0.23 24
   DS   30  4/2  3                                  0.11 35
   APDS 30  5/2  3                                  0.11 71

12 Gun  30  2/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.15 0.79 502  0.50 +2  1 1/1
   Clip 30                                          0.07 28
   Lead 30  2/2  3                                  0.33 11
   AP   30  3/2  3                                  0.22 23
   DS   30  4/2  3                                  0.10 34
   APDS 30  6/2  3                                  0.10 69

13 Gun  30  2/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.15 0.64 502  0.50 +2  1 1/1
   Clip 30                                          0.07 27
   Lead 30  2/2  3                                  0.33 11
   AP   30  3/2  3                                  0.22 23
   DS   30  4/2  3                                  0.10 34
   APDS 30  6/2  3                                  0.10 69

14 Gun  30  2/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.15 0.60 501  0.50 +3  1 1/1
   Clip 30                                          0.07 27
   Lead 30  2/2  3                                  0.33 11
   AP   30  3/2  3                                  0.22 23
   DS   30  4/2  3                                  0.10 34
   APDS 30  6/2  3                                  0.10 69

15 Gun  30  2/2  3  Lng  -   -  Med Med/R Hand 0.15 0.60 504  0.50 +3  1 1/1
   Clip 30                                          0.07 28
   Lead 30  2/2  3                                  0.33 10
   AP   30  3/2  3                                  0.22 21
   DS   30  4/2  3                                  0.10 31
   APDS 30  6/2  3                                  0.10 63

- -bertil-
- -- 
"Med en sjyst magnum sla^r man strephon med ha"pnad!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2796
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: KE weapons: late addition
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 91 10:03:06 BST

cch2@ra.msstate.edu (John Steven Higginbotham) writes:
> 
> 1)  Why do so many reasonably educated people always assume that our present
> level of knowledge in physics is true and correct in every way?

We don't, otherwise we'd have to forget anti-gravity and jump drives.  (Note
the implied arrogance in the "we" there! :-)

> Point being, you are all treating Conservation of Energy as Gospel.

Because if someone once finds a way of violating it, they'll start producing
energy for free and upset the whole game universe.  Besides, it makes sense.

>								According to
> Hawking's speculations about naked singularities, conservation of energy 
> does not apply in their vicinity ...

Very well, try putting a naked singularity into your ship and see how far you
get!  :-)

> And why can't the excess energy needed to make your numbers come out right
> come from Superspace, or be extracted from the Universal gravitational field,
> or something equally unlikely.

Because it's _too_ unlikely!

> Remember that MT is supposed to be 'space opera', not hard scifi.  If you want
> hard scifi, use 2300AD, or create your own universe.  Stop trying to bludgeon
> MT to make it fit.

Some of us were raised on Classic Traveller, which was supposed to be hard s.f.
(Not "scifi", or you'll get flamed by some people who find that term a bit
objectionable!  :-)  We'd rather like to play MT the same way.  Of course, if
you don't want to, you can use the rules as they are, and I for one won't
object.  Me, if I want space opera, I play Star Wars.

> Let's try a new thread.  We have been trying to determine the effect that
> densitometers have on a high TL battlefield.  According to MT, artificial grav
> stands out like a sore thumb on a densitometer.  So what allows anyone to use
> grav vehicles, when they can be detected and eliminated by a
> densitometer/meson gun combo on the other side of the planet?

Well, not quite.  To detect the vehicle from the other side of a planet, you
need a high penetration densitometer to be able to see through the planet;
and that only becomes practical at around TL18, when your densitometer can
penetrate 2500km.  Even using one from the other side of a hill might not work
at TL15 (penetration = 1km).  On the other hand, giving your TL15 trooper a
handheld densitometer, sending him to the top of the hill, and using him as a
forward observer for artillery might work, as might using a densitometer from
a great height.

>							Any design philosophies
> for vehicles and military forces that take neutrino detectors/densitometers
> into account?

Use WW1 cloth-covered biplanes?  :-)

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2797
Date:     Wed, 21 Aug 91 9:32:07 EDT
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  Agility, One Last Time

I wish I could repost the remarks I got on this subject on GEnie, but I was
surprised to discover that everyone who answered over there is in agreement:

We are calculating agility wrong...they really do mean the power left over
after all components, including the maneuver drive, are powered.  So, if you
want to have a ship that uses 30MW life support, 250MW of weapons, 120MW
of maneuver and has a high agility...go ahead and put in a 7000MW power plant.

(Makes no sense to me.  Sorry.)

Since this apparently has nothing to do with the maneuver drive (then why
does the maneuver drive limit 'emergency' agility?) there is no limit on
how much power can be used for agility.


On the same subject:  Some months ago I posted a note to someone who asked
if we should speed space combat up.  At the time I went into a long description
with a lot of math about how small a target was, and what the odds of hitting
it at 50,000km were, given the likely uncertainty in the _exact_ angle of
your fire.  Last week I sat down to see how much of an effect ship movement
would actually have, and was surprised to run through the numbers and discover
this:  If you have a 50m long ship (let's assume a sphere for convenience,
other shapes will produce other results, but the principle is the same), and
you shoot at it with _perfect_ aim, agility will help it if it can change its
predicted postion (movement vector) by more than one ship length in the time
it takes for the sensor position to travel back to you and the beam to go out.
At 50m and 6-G acceleration, this critical distance is about 200,000km.  For a
50m, 1G ship it is about 480,000km.  _At this range, you could track the ship
continuously and stay on target if you had perfect fire control_.  What would
this mean in game terms?  Well, it's really too late to do anything about it
now, BUT since the uncertainty in firing angle is much more important than
actual ship movement, the use of the attacking computer factor as an add-on
to the attack makes sense.  The use of any sort of defender agility as a
minus to the attack does not, and the use of the defender computer factor to
give a minus on the attack only makes sense if you assume that it represents
some sort of electronic countermeasures aimed at throwing off the attacker's
targetting data.  This isn't a bad assumption, but it seems to me like it might
only be possible with an active EMS jammer and/or EMM system.

For those wishing to figure other conditions the formula is:

Critical Distance=t*2*300,000km/sec

           --------------
          /ship length*2
t= \    / ---------------
    \ /   acceleration

Rob Dean

I've been overwhelmed by the Horde!


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2798
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1991 10:14 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: High Speed Projectiles, One Last Time

Hi,

John Higginbotham writes that it would be easy to detect a ship
accelerating to .1c.  Well, It aien't that easy.  Consider that
the attacking vessel has to make a long run toward  it's target
in order to get up to speed.  Well, You are going to have
to start waaaay out of the system anyway, why not move back into
interstellar space to start your run?

For one there is less junk out there.  Less chance you'll hit
a stray micrometeroroid at.1c with disasterous results.  Less
chance of detection.  (at the distances I'm thinking of your
neutrino smoke will be totally lost in the bacground noise)

Targetting?  Well, with good old TL7 equipment, we managed to
score a close encounter with Neptune... Admittedly, we had
a few mid course corrections, but there weren't that many
burns and those were for getting to the next target, not
correcting aim.

As for Conservation of energy.  Steven Hawkings is pretty
much talking about what most of us would consider special
circumstances in the realm of the universe (Inside the
center of a black hole...)
Not having been inside one myself I am afraid I am
prejudiced to think that that is a special case...
	Anyway, Conservation of energy holds up quite nicely
in Newtonian physics.  Newton does hold up for everday
low velocities.   And, (Surprise!) .1C is within the realm of
Newton.  (Relativity doesn't kick in substantially till .5C)
	As for mysterious stuff which somehow nullifies
the laws of physics...  I don't like 'em, I won't use 'em
unless I have to.  (Jump Drives, Grav Drives, Nuc Dampers,
Meson Screens, Psi{I really don't like psi})

	The last I heard was that Traveller IS a Hard
Science Fiction game.  (with the above exceptions)  Most of
the game is based on Poul Anderson's writings which are
definitely hard science fiction.

Scott S. Kellogg

PS.  I don't like the term 'hard science fiction'  I preferr
'good science fiction' as opposed to 'bad science fiction'

Eight foot two,
Solid blue,
Five transistors in each shoe,
Has anybody seen my Horde?...

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2799
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1991 11:27 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Planetary Bombardment

I just remembered a group powerful enough and nuts enough to
flatten a planet with .1c projectiles (or asterioids for those of
you skeptics who say it won't work.)

The K'kree.  They have the motive, the opportunity and the means.
After all, most of the time they go around blasting inhabited
planets to smithereens.  (if they are carnivorous)

In most cases these are low tech planets that can not defend themselves.

There is one note that the first K'kree war of extermination lasted
ten years.  I don't see why.  The K'kree had TL9 Spacecraft.
All they had to do is push a few asteroids around.  (or drop a 1Kl
lead brick on them @ .1C)

One nice dust cloud in the atmosphere will kill off most of the plants,
no plant's no herbivores, no herbivores, no carnivores... problem
solved.

Scott Kellogg
The Horde is assembling at the barder...

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2800
Date:     Wed, 21 Aug 91 15:37:22 EDT
From: "Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil>
Subject:  World Descriptions

I just uploaded my latest modifications of my thumbnail sketches of the worlds
of the Glisten and District 268 subsectors of the Spinward Marches.  Since the
file now runs to 55000 bytes, I decided not to send it to the list.  Anyone
interested can request a copy by email.  Some of the planets with their
descriptions expanded recently include Overnale (Planet of Coups and Civil
Wars), Pagaton (TL4 ice age), Sorel (TL2), and Horosho (Planet of Perpetual
Rain).

Rob Dean

A Horde, a Horde, my kingdom for a Horde!


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2801
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1991 15:33 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Re: Agility, One Last Time

Hi,

Want to hear a stupid idea?  If what I have been calling "excess" power
is the important thing in agility calculations.

(ie:  The power left over after ALL systems have been powered)

Ok, then shut down part of your maneuver drive.  You'll get a lot of power
back and it is now in the "excess" power.

So, Shut down the maneuver drive to increase agility?  Sound Stupid?
It works!  (try it!)  Therefore the "excess" power idea is stupid!

Scott Kellogg

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2802
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 91 17:53:38 EDT
From: Mike.Metlay@ORGAN.MUSIC.CS.CMU.EDU
Subject: On ignoring Conservation of Energy

I'll keep this short (unlike some other replies I can predict). It's
pointless to assume that conservation of energy is a special case of
ANYTHING where the motions of normal bodies in space are concerned,
because the effects on common phenomena we can see and interact with 
every day would be measurable. If broken rules are the only reason
to rewrite the laws of physics, even for the sake of a great universe
like the Imperium, then I say to hell with that. Get rid of thruster
plates, redo antigrav properly, put fusion rockets back into the game,
and may the TDR be with you. Harrumph.

metlay
The Horde is breathing down the TML's collective NECK....!

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2803
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 91 15:24:16 EST
From: grue@cs.uq.oz.au
Subject: Some thoughts about disintegrators

hi,

This is a suggestion as to a possible way to handle disintegrators under
the 'new' TDR ship combat system.


Currently disintegrators are basically worthless weapons, they get less
'free' hits than meson guns, they are affected by armour, they don't get
internal damage hits.  Altogether a pretty poor showing --- little better
than PAs.  When you also consider that they are expensive, large, heavy and
suck power like nothing else they become totally useless (I won't mention the
Jump spinal mounts, they are VERY different to everything else and basically
not worth mentioning in a traditional TL game).

There are several different ways to fix this problem.  Weaken the other spinal
weapons; strengthen the disintegrator weapons; use them to replace PAs at high
TLs rather than replace meson weapons.

Weakening the other weapons seems a bit excessive to me.  Besides, combat
should be really really fatal and quick :-)

Using disintegrators as a PA replacement would be possible if you greatly
lighten the power/volume/weight/price requirements for them to something
comparable to PAs.  Division of all these attributes by 5 or 10 would
bring them back into line but PAs would still be preferable in most
circumstances.

Strengthening a disintegrator is the other way to go.  After some thought and
lots of heat arguments between Eric Halil and myself, we thought of some 'nice'
ways to improve them.  They have to be pretty much single hits destroy style
weapons to match the large meson guns --- let a given disintegrator be capable
of totally destroying a given mass of matter on a hit.  That causes ships to
be disintegrated properly and maybe absolutely.  They should also cause major
damage to the ship's armour factor because they are physically removing it.
Also, the disintegration of matter is likely to produce quite major radation
effects so increase the number of radation damage rolls (unmodified?) and also
apply some damage rolls to ships that are using the taget as a screen or that
are screening the target (or apply some radation damage hits to all ships in
the same hex as the target).  Finally, disintegration is likely to produce some
impressive quantities of EM radation over the entire spectrum so cause all
EM sensors (passive especially) to be either considered jammed or to suffer a
negative DM on sensor tasks [ this shouldn't be too much of a problem on
military ships since EM sensors aren't really necessary if you've got
densos and neutrio sensors ].  These sensors would be able to get a very nice
pinpoint upon the ship being hit since it would be a very impressive EM source.
I don't think that neutrio sensors or densotometers are going to be gravely
affects by the large scale disintegration of matter around the place.  Could a
more physics orientated person verify these ideas?

The handling of the destruction of portions of the ship could be done:
1) percentage destroyed is the save for each of the major systems.
2) as 1 but also certain systems are destroyed after so many percent damage
	reguardless of saves.
3) percentage degradation of some/all ships systems.

Also, things like the jump grid should always suffer a percentage degratation
as damage is taken (this kind of damage is mentioned in the 'official' rules
somewhere).

The powers at large in the imperium (GDW) seem to consider disintegrators to
be powerful weapons, so the modified ship combat/design systems should help
out a little.

Future work to be done:
    Formalise these ideas a little bit more, giving damage rolls etc.
    Convert them into something RebelGuard can use.
    Rework the necessary sections of the ship design procedure for the TDR
    vehicle/ship design group.

I'll get this done eventually, but it is going to have to wait for a little
while since I've got to devote some time to my work.



Any comments are appreciated.


        						Pauli

Paul Dale               | Internet/CSnet:            grue@cs.uq.oz.au
Dept of Computer Science| Bitnet:       grue%cs.uq.oz.au@uunet.uu.net
Uni of Queensland       | JANET:           grue%cs.uq.oz.au@uk.ac.ukc
Australia, 4072         | EAN:                          grue@cs.uq.oz
                        | UUCP:           uunet!munnari!cs.uq.oz!grue
f4e6g4Qh4++             | JUNET:                     grue@cs.uq.oz.au

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2804
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Hordes of agility
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 91 10:05:49 BST

"Robert S. Dean" <rsdean@crdec8.apgea.army.mil> writes:
> 
> We are calculating agility wrong...they really do mean the power left over
> after all components, including the maneuver drive, are powered.
> ...
> Since this apparently has nothing to do with the maneuver drive (then why
> does the maneuver drive limit 'emergency' agility?) there is no limit on
> how much power can be used for agility.

Perhaps you could ask them what is being used to convert raw power into
agility?  It isn't the manoeuvre drive, because that device's power is
calculated separately.  In fact, having a large manoeuvre drive will
_decrease_ your agility for a given power plant size!

KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
> 
> So, Shut down the maneuver drive to increase agility?  Sound Stupid?
> It works!  (try it!)  Therefore the "excess" power idea is stupid!

Well, the MT system tries to avoid doing such calculations in the middle
of a game, probably because it would slow the game down a lot if each
ship kept recalculating its agility every time a weapon fired or someone
did something like the above to the manoeuvre drive.  So they ship specs
just list one agility value.

But, as I said, if you put in a smaller manoeuvre drive in the first place,
you get a higher agility.  This is just from power calculations; the mass
saved by using a smaller drive can be filled with cargo, non-energy weapons
or some other object which doesn't consume power, and the ship will still
be more agile than if it had the larger drive.

Either way, the MT method of calculating agility is stupid.

Mike.Metlay@ORGAN.MUSIC.CS.CMU.EDU writes:

>						Get rid of thruster
> plates, redo antigrav properly, put fusion rockets back into the game,
> and may the TDR be with you. Harrumph.

Agreed.  What's the point of having a large drive if you can't fry someone
with the exhaust, anyway?  :-)

- -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2805
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Agility, One Last Time
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 91 12:55:47 MET DST

> I wish I could repost the remarks I got on this subject on GEnie, but I was
> surprised to discover that everyone who answered over there is in agreement:
> 
> We are calculating agility wrong...they really do mean the power left over
> after all components, including the maneuver drive, are powered.  So, if you
> want to have a ship that uses 30MW life support, 250MW of weapons, 120MW
> of maneuver and has a high agility...go ahead and put in a 7000MW power plant.
> 
> (Makes no sense to me.  Sorry.)

  That only means that this is the way it should be done in MegaTraveller, 
it is not the way it is done in Striker, and it don't say anything about TDR:)

>The use of any sort of defender agility as a
>minus to the attack does not, and the use of the defender computer factor to
>give a minus on the attack only makes sense if you assume that it represents
>some sort of electronic countermeasures aimed at throwing off the attacker's
>targetting data.  This isn't a bad assumption, but it seems to me like it might
>only be possible with an active EMS jammer and/or EMM system.

  In the old traveller space combat system, you only needed a ECM program to 
start spoofing missiles.

  I suspect that the Passive/Active EMS arrays could be used as the 
sensing/transmitting part of a ECM system if the signal-processing ciruits and
the computer are flexible and fast enough.
  Some years ago I read a introductiory text on electronic warfare and one of
the impressions I got is that most active systems could be done with a wide-
frequency band capable reciever (like the PassiveEMS) and a similarly wide-
frequency band capable strong transmitter.
 
  Fooling Neutrino detectors and Densitometers should be possible by playing
with the powerplant ('Neutrino-signature of second boogie rapidly increasing,
sir, looks like they are closing fast!') and the grav-plates.

- -bertil-
- -- 
"Med ett sjyst ja"rnro"r sla^r man va"rlden med ha"pnad!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2806
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1991 20:41 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Jump Trainer Cessna 15-0 II

Hi,
I sent this in a few days ago. It turned out my computer
blew it.  I had been making adjustments on it and it neglected to
calculate that there was a jump drive installed.  (oops!)
So I am resending this.

Jump Trainer TL15 "Cessna 15-0" Class

CraftID:	Light Jump Trainer, Type AL, TL15, MCr 18.36232
Hull:		(90/225) Disp=100, Config=6SL, Armor=40G,
		Unload=453.06, Load=1374.16
Power:		(2/3) Fusion=252MW, Dur=30/90
Loco:		(2/4) Maneuver=1, (2/4) Jump=1, MaxAccel=1.02,
		NOE=190, Cruise=750, Max=1000, Agility=1
Comm:		Radio=System*2
Sensors:	A-EMS(Planet), P-EMS(InterPlanet)
		ActObjScn=Dif	ActObjPin=Dif	PasEnScn=Rout
Off:		HPt=1
Def:		DefDM+3
Control:	Computer Mod/1*3, HoloHUD*2, HoloLink*2
Accom:		Crew=1(Bridge/Engineer=1, Instructor=1) Stateroom=2,
		BasicEnv, BasicLS, ExtendLS, G-Plates
Other:		Fuel=225.72kl(1 jump-1+30dy), Cargo=947.93, Scoops,
		Fuel Pure=18hr, ObjSize=Avg, EmLevel=Faint
Remarks:	No Inertial Compensators.
	The Subsidiary of GSBag:  C&P Ltd has a longer history
than the that of the Imperium.  In 262, the Corporate
Headquarters was moved to Capitol, where they continued to build
their series of trainer ships and vehicles.  Cessna & Piper Ltd
has millenia of experience in the field of trainer design.
	Recently, the demand for new trainers has decreased due to
the fact that there are many many such craft still in service.
The market is full, and while the demand for such craft is
strong, the economic factors come in.  Who will buy a Cessna
Model 15-0, built in 1121 when one built in 1102 can be bought
for substantially less?
	The ship normally does not carry cargo, but it can carry a
substantial amount if so desired.  Many models have had their
cargo bays modified with staterooms in its place.
	The Cessna is a tail sitter, this combined with the 1G
engines make the inertial compensators unnecessary.
	Two pilot's stations are installed.  Either one can take
full control of the ship.  The ship could be said to have an
auxillury bridge, were the pilots not side by side.
	The power plant puts out an excess of 50MW for the possible
installation of more sensors, avionics, additional accomodations,
inertial compensators, or even weapons.
	Probably half the private pilots in the Imperium, and more
than a few military pilots first soloed in a C&P 15-0.
	Spins are prohibited below 900m AGL.  Recommended spin
entry:  150kph.  The Avco-Lycoming fusion plant was chosen for
it's reliability, having proved itself in many small craft
designs.  Note:  Because of extreme wing loading, stall speed
is somewhere around Mach 1.

Scott Kellogg
He who lives by the Horde, shall die by the Horde...

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2807
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 1991 21:05 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Starship Minimum Size

A question:

In classic traveller, the minimum size of a ship was 100 displacement tons.
In High guard the minimum size of a jump capable ship was 100 tons.

Why?

Well, In Book 2 (the original starship design book) the minimum size drives
would have trouble fitting into a smaller hull.  High Guard modified this
making it possible for smaller ships with smaller drives, but they kept the
100 ton rule.

Now in MegaT, we have a system capable of designing things down to the size
of .0005 tons (smaller if you use Book 8 robots)
Anyway, why do we still have the 100 ton rule?  I can see that there is
going to be a minimum size to a jump drive, but why 100 tons?

Now in adventure 4, they mention jump torpedoes.  (no rules on how much they
cost or how far they can jump, but they are there.)  So Jump drives can be
made smaller.

Ah! I hear you say, there's no one aboard a jump torpedo!  Life can't be sustained in something smaller than 100 tons.  Well, what if you put the same
drive from a 100 ton ship in a smaller ship?  The jump field it projects
should be of the same size, allowing for a bubble in which the occupants
can live while travelling in jump space.  Why 100 tons?

Ok, the reason I am asking is the Cessna Jump trainer design I put out
for your amusement.  More than 60% is cargo space.  (frankly I didn't
want cargo space, but the rules made it so.)  That 60% is essentually
wasted volume.  The whole ship would fit into a 40 ton package.  So,
why do I have to use the 100 ton min?

I realize that small jump capable ships have limited utility, but I wanted
the Cessna to be CHEAP!  If I didn't have to get a maneuver drive for a
100 ton ship, and the associated power plant it would be much cheaper.

How many people would scream if the rule was ammended to be such
that the minimum size jump drive is that given in the book for the 100
ton ship, but the actual ship may be smaller?  To keep such things in
balance we could say that the min size drive remains the same per jump
number.  thus

Jump #	Min Size
1	27Kl
2	40.5Kl
3	54Kl
4	67.5Kl
5	81Kl
6	94.5Kl

What do you say folks?

Mr. Scott
Master of Horde and Sorcery

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Archive-Message-Number: 2808
From: chk@alias.COM (C. Harald Koch)
Subject: 2300AD is hard science fiction? Hah!
Date: 	Thu, 22 Aug 1991 10:18:58 -0400

> Remember that MT is supposed to be 'space opera', not hard scifi.  If you want
> hard scifi, use 2300AD, or create your own universe.  Stop trying to bludgeon
> MT to make it fit.

Actually, there's all sorts of neat tricks you can play in 2300AD that
violate current physics; their numbers for stutterwarp drives (for example)
violate conservation of energy in a big way.

Why, you ask?

First, for you non-2300 types, the stutterwarp drive is a strange hyperspace
drive. It cycles about 100,000 times per second, and each cycle creates an
instantaneous jump from one point in space to another, thousands of meters
apart, without crossing the intervening space. The net effect is Faster Than
Light travel. However, the velocity vector of the ship in realspace is
completely unaffected by this travel. If you are in orbit about a planet in
one system, and stutterwarp over to the other system, you arrive with your
original vector unchanged (making orbital maneuvers intersting... :-)

The stutterwarp effect is drastically reduced inside the .01G barrier of a
gravity well, so FTL travel within a system is not possible. However, you
can still make good time using stutterwarp instead of reaction drives within
a system. The drawback is that the materials to build stutterwarp drives are
extremely rare, thus the drives are prohibitively expensive. There are only
a few thousand starships in existence in 2300AD, and they're all o/o by the
military or large governments/organizations. (btw, this is the real reason
for using organizations in 2300AD; it's the only way to get access to a
starship without paying commercial rates).

Anyway: most starships don't have maneuver drives. To change your velocity
vector, you stutterwarp to an appropriate point in a gravity well, and then
'fall' until you reach your desired velocity. This requires computers (and a
skilled ship's pilot, which is why we invented the Pilot crew position which
is missing from the rules). This also led us to think about other things you
can do with gravity wells...

- - There's a really neat power generator using stutterwarp: hang a stutterwarp
  drive, inside a large magnet, inside a large wire coil, inside of a gravity
  well. stutterwarp away from the planet, then fall towards the planet. While
  moving towards the planet, the interaction between the magnet and the coil
  agenerates electricity, which also slows you down again. However, you get
  more energy out of the system than you put in, using current
  electromagnetic generator efficiencies and 2300AD stutterwarp energy
  costs. Perpetual motion, anyone?

- - There's also a really neat doomsday device using the same principle. Hang a
  stutterwarp drive in a gravity well. stutterwarp up, fall down. You can
  very quickly get your realspace velocity vector up to large fractions of
  c. Then, turn of the stutterwarp. You impact the surface of the planet...


Anyway, my real point is, don't go calling 2300AD "Hard Science". It breaks
just as many current phyiscs rules as MT does...

- -- 
C. Harald Koch  VE3TLA                Alias Research, Inc., Toronto ON Canada
Internet:    chk@alias.com      chk@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu      chk@chk.mef.org

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2809
Date: Fri, 23 Aug 91 09:59:40 -0400
From: John Lusk <lusk@cs.unc.edu>
Subject: 2300AD as hard science

>   Actually, there's all sorts of neat tricks you can play in 2300AD
>   that violate current physics; their numbers for stutterwarp drives
>   (for example) violate conservation of energy in a big way.

Don't forget that the very concept of FTL travel produces all sorts of
contradictions, without even having to consider numerical values for
generator efficiencies and stutterwarp energy costs.  The thing is,
FTL travel is almost an essential "gimme", unless you want to confine
yourself to one planet and its in-system neighbors.  As far as I can
tell, games that do that turn out to be cyberpunk.  2300 has fewer
gimmes than MT.  As a computer-science type, I take exception to GDW's
concept of computer abilities and costs in 2300, but that's not too
hard to fix.  When I eventually return to MT, I hope to be able to
excise a lot of stuff, like psionics and disintegrators and black
globes and maybe even anti-gravity, BUT . . . it'll be a lot of work,
which is one of the reasons that I prefer 2300 for the time being.

John.

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