Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3700
Date: | 2/19/01 1:59:50 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, February 19 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3700
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)
Re: Indefinite life span
Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Re: Darrian names?
Yres info
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Re: OT RL Info on Internet copyright
Re: Darrian Names
RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Annual War of 1812 debate (was: Ship habitability)
Near C- Rocks! (TM)
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
RE: Interesting spots to visit
Re : Indefinite life span
Re : Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)
Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.
RE: Indefinite life span
RE: Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium
RE: Artillery falls from the sky...
RE: I'm running a campaign...
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
RE: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:01:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)
In mail you write:
> BTW, does anyone know the origins of the word "anagathic"? I'm just
> curious. Did it come from a sci-fi novel, or what?
I think it came from the first (in terms of internal chronology, not
publishing order) of James Blish's "Cities in Flight" books. I can;t
recall the title though... :-(
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:04:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Indefinite life span
In mail you write:
> P.S. If you can find an unexpuurgerated version of Gulliver's Travels, it's
> well worth your time. It is not a kiddie story by any stretch.
I read it back in Junior High. Among other things, anyone reading it
will find out that "yahoo" is one *hell* of an insult.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:06:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
In mail you write:
> Larsen (aka Mr. Whipsnade) wrote:
>
>> Thank you so much for filling in for my spotty memory. I fear my
>>little grey cells are retiring well before the rest of my body. (sigh) The
>>title "Flashing Blades" didn't ring a bell with me though. Of course it
> has
>>been 20+ years and there is my aforementioned weary grey cells.
>
> Are you thinking of, perhaps, "En Garde"? I've only heard mention of it,
> I've never seen it or held it or anything, but it seems to be pretty close
> to what you're describing.
I've got a copy somewhere in my gaming stuff. Back when it was new, I
gave a copy as a Christmas present to a person in my D&D campaign who
was a fencer. She was rather pleased with the present.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 05:45:51 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Darrian names?
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
"I have a spreadsheet that generates names for 13 different Trav
languages..."
"I can send it to you if you are interested."
Mr. Simpson,
If it's not too much of a bother, may I have a copy also?
Thank you.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:47:55 EST
From: JimVassila@aol.com
Subject: Yres info
> Is there any "interesting" information about Yres?
> I've got GURPS Behind the Claw, so I have basic details, but nothing
> really from any non-GURPS sources.
Yres & Menorb were the site of the Battle of Two Suns which occured in 1084
at the end of the Fourth Frontier War, also called the False War. Supposedly
there's still a lot of debris floating around the battlefield, and it's a bit
of a traffic hazard. Maps designate it as a dangerous area. Info from Adv 1:
The Kinunir, and Supp 8: Library Data (A-M).
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:58:59 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Terry Carlino wrote:
> There's got to be some kind of legal framework or Trade and Commerce would
> grind to a halt.
Which is why I have suggested a Trade-oriented Uniform Commercial
Code approach amongst significant trading worlds. It makes business
predictable, therefore, less costly. Personal freedoms and liberties,
big deal. Getting paid, risk of loss issues, terms of trade, contracts,
dispute arbitration: these things get handled efficiently else business suffers.
Unpredictable and slow court systems would hurt megacorps more than
help them. A predictable system that allows them to calculate costs
and benefits is vital.
> I never said it was "valid" only that it happened.
Ahem. Yes you did. It's right there. Notice the last three words
of your text that I quoted.
> Some cases are tremendously complex even when the core matter is
> extremely simple. And some things can be made more complex if you have
> enough money to spend.
Only if the Court tolerates it.
> Exactly, and if the noble in charge believes the best way to handle the case
> is to make it drag on then it will.
Then it isn't the fault of the courts or legal system, is it?
If it's all at a noble's whim, as you say below, is it really a
'system' at all? I think not.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:54:14 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Larsen (aka Mr. Whipsnade) wrote:
> Thank you, sir. It is "En Garde". I knew the kind members of this
>list would help me rectify my cranial-rectal inversion.
No problem. Glad to be of service.
> The game was rather fast playing. Friends of mine would actually take
>their turns while we ate lunch. Also thanks to it, the enrollment in the
>club sport of fencing had an incredible jump for a semester. They actually
>had to split up the classes due to a lack of foils.
Like I said, I've never actually seen it, but I remember hearing of it when
I was younger, and it has been mentioned on the list many times since I've
been on.
> Being young idiots, we continually tried to out do one another with
>overly ornate and flowery modes of address, while attempting to slip sly
>digs and jibes in amongst the flummery.
> Oddly enough, that's exactly what some members of the list were
>suspicious of me doing at first; raising the possibility that I was
playing
>the same "courteous insult" game here too. i would like to assure them
>again that I am not.
Hey, doesn't bother me in the slightest! Be as formal or informal as you
like -- doesn't bother me. Although, if you'd like, you can call me Chris.
That's what I usually go by. There are already too many people named "Mr.
Seamans" in my family.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:00:25 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: OT RL Info on Internet copyright
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
> There is, since about a year or something, a *very* stupid law in
> Sweden...
>
> Basically, it is illegal to have any kind of personal information about
> other people on a website without those persons' express permission.
That's not copyright law. It's privacy law. And a lot of other countries
have such laws. The topic was copyright and my comments were
limited to that issue.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 01:03:58 EST
From: JimVassila@aol.com
Subject: Re: Darrian Names
>Is there a Darrian name list and/or language generator out there anywhere?
>Turning my storage room upside down has failed to produce my Darrians Alien
>Module....
Galactic has a darrian name list courtesy of Charles Collin.
Assuming the link hasn't rotted, Galactic can be download from:
http://www.geocities.com/jimvassila
The location of the darrian names file within the gal24.zip archive is:
data\names\darrian.dat
Or if that's too much bother, just email me privately, and I'll send you a
copy of the names list... -Jim
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:07:45 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
"Although, if you'd like, you can call me Chris. That's what I usually
go by."
Chris,
Why, thank you very much. Larsen, or Bill, or Whipsnade, which ever
you prefer to type is prefectly alright with me too.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:52:44 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Annual War of 1812 debate (was: Ship habitability)
On 19 Feb 2001, at 16:08, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> On 19 Feb 2001, at 3:04, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> > the infant USN was mainly overwhelmed rather than out fought. I can't think
> > of a more vocal booster of the RN then WSC; however his mother was American.
> > 8^)
> IIRC earlier on the US ships overwhelmed the RN ships by being bigger and
> newer, and later when the British built two-deck frigates to match (and
> brought their naval spending back up) the US ships had all kinds of trouble.
My, how time flies. I had no idea it was time for the annual War of 1812
debate :*>
Actually this is quite On Topic for Traveller, its a classic example of
commerce warfare and its strategic lessons are likely to be as valid in the
56th Century as they are now.
Before the war the USN and RN had built two very different fleets. The
British were a maritime Empire, dependent on control of the sea for its very
survival. To meet this role the RN had built a large fleet of cost effective
vessels to protect its trade routes (the ubiquitous 32 and 36 gun single
deck frigates). Due to the shear scale of the area to be covered, it was
forced to sacrifice individual excellance in their designs in order to get
sufficent vessels to do the job (quantity over quality).
The Americans on the other hand had no significant maritime interests to
protect. After the American Revolution the US had been exluded from the
British trade system and as a consequence it maritime trade had suffered
a disasterous downturn (it was only just starting to recover before the war).
Therefore the USN had no need to control the sea, they had no extensive
trade routes to protect and no overseas posestions to patrol. Consequently
the US could afford to opt for individual excellance in its ship designs and
built large 50 gun double deck frigates (quality over quantity).
Unsurprisingly, when these USN "monster frigates" came to battle the RNs
32 and 36 gunners, they totally dominated them. However, as might be
expected the RN did not sit idly by and let this situation continue. They
built their own 50 gun monsters (interestingly the plans for these vessels
date from 1810, but the pressures of the war against the French had
delayed their contruction). They then imposed a blockade of the US ports.
This ment that the USN monsters could not get out of port with out a
battle, which (win or lose) was guaranteed to inflict sufficent damage on the
US ships to prevent them from making effective commerce raiders.
Therefore, the USN ships choose not to leave port.
ObTrav: This is the classic form of commerce warfare, its likely still valid in
the 3rd Imperium.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:38:49 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
Gregory Carl Kettler wrote :
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2001, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > ... has everyone for gotten that it's February? It's TIME, people!
> >
> > Or is the Annual Near-C-Pirates/Hiroshima Morality tag-team flamefest
> > postponed this year?
>
> (Checks history book). No, sorry, I don't know anything about the time
> some pirates hit Hiroshima with a Near-C rock, so I can't comment on the
> morality of it.
Hmm......., I hereby claim the name Near-C for future use either as a
strategic weapons company or an industrial rock band. If there's not already
a trade-mark on the phrase
"Near-C Rocks!" (including the apostrophe)
The band will be inordinately proud of the time they got to gig with the
Bulldaggers and Hiroshima sat in on their set.
The strategic weapons company will be equally annoyed of the piratical
actions of Ron Post, because he never bothers to pay for the weapons he uses
from the company. Some marketing chizz thought that being able to say
"Near-C Rocks, The Choice of Ron Post" would be worth the cost of giving Ron
free rocks....
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:35:19 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
On Sun, 18 Feb 2001, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> There are some possibily applicable datapoint available. there have
> been a number of folks revived from "extreme hypothermia" in the last
> 50 years. And some of the more recent cases were *so* extreme, that
> doctors did research and now *deliberately* induce that sort of "total
> shutdown" to have more time for performimg certain types of surgery.
Do you have any references? I am very interested in reading them.
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:46:59 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Interesting spots to visit
Mark Urbin wrote
> Shaggy3D types out with at best, two fingers:
> > Between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv you say?? Man,I'm gonna buy my ticket
> > first thing tomorrow morning!! Oh yeah,I gotta see that,can't wait
> > ,oh yeah!!Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Yea right. Sheesh.
>
> This is an international mailing list with a lot of members in the high
> tech business.
> Tel Aviv is the home to a lot of high tech companies. There is a lot of
> business travel there, even with the occasional car bomb going off.
Just to prove the point, I was attending a wedding reception this Saturday
(for a pair of gamers, who started dating during a game of TNE, BTW) where a
friend of mine (another gamer) who had just flown in from Taiwan for the
wedding was talking about how damn difficult it was to get back into Israel
once you'd been to the Lebanon...
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:23:13 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Indefinite life span
Paul Drye wrote :-
> The key point is that accidents are essentially random, so a large
> enough group has a "half-life".
I thought that life expectancy was just that - the age at which 50% of a
given cohort are still alive. The weighting given by degenerative
disease/ageing etc. disappears into curves like :-
N(t) = N(0).(1 - exp(-k/t)), t > 0
At some arbitrarily large t, N(t) should be regarded as zero for the
purposes of life expectancy modelling.
I get 804 years, assuming an accident rate of 1/2500 per year (5% of a death
rate of 8/1000, which is near the First World average).
Larsen Whipsnade wrote :-
> These people who feverishly cling to life long past any ability to
> enjoy or participate it in amaze me. They reduce themselves to
> potted plants; pruned, weeded, fed, and occasionally parked in the
> sun, and have none of the interactions that make us human.
Never underestimate the power of secondary gain for the person's next of
kin, or the private nursing or medical staff.
In any case, people that sick don't tend not to last all that long.
Heart failure and end-stage dementia (or emphysema) are as deadly as
disseminated malignancy (five year survival < 20%).
People often get very unwell and are told that they can be supported for a
long time. Doctors are guilty of promoting unrealistic expectations ; it is
very difficult not to offer hope in a hopeless situation.
The profession's emphasis today seems to be on 'cure' rather than 'care',
which is a shame given that many treatments are essentially palliative in
nature.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
(with apologies for post length)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:23:18 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)
Roger Sanger wrote :-
> Though, if enough people take a risk, then demographic statistical
> analysis such as that used to compare the effects of diet between
> different cultures can be utilized to measure the results -- but
> that's not how the approval process of the FDA works. :-(
The process from development of compound, through baseline cell culture and
animal experiments, to limited and then post marketing surveillance, takes
an average of 15 years.
The concern of the regulatory authorities is that the treatment is somewhat
safer than the disease. In the case of HIV/AIDS, this wouldn't be difficult
to demonstrate with just about any agent. The basic threshold for a drug to
be approved for human use is a major adverse reaction roughly once every
20-50,000 administrations.
In the current environment of zero-risk stupidity, I am sure that this may
have to be revised for political reasons <sigh>.
> This is one example of how red tape can kill.
Would you prefer some of the drugs that haven't been approved go on the
market? I've heard of some great ones that were just safe enough to be
approved for *veterinary* use...
> DHEA has been touted as being equally effective as caloric
> restriction, but that is not the drug to which I was referring.
Dehydroepiandrosterone?
What a joke.
I'll ask again :-
Roger, what is the agent or agents you are referring to?
If you are under a legally binding non-disclosure agreement, then just say
so. Even then, the code names of the pilot compounds, or just the
investigating company should be enough for me to follow the line of
research.
On telomeres :-
> I haven't hear that. Therefore, I'd be interested in reading up on
> it. Please tell us your references..
Hit 'Medline' (PubMed), 'Nature' and 'Science'. You should be able to find
dozens.
> BTW, does anyone know the origins of the word "anagathic"? I'm just
> curious. Did it come from a sci-fi novel, or what?
Leonard Erickson (among others) may be able to correct me on this.
Check E.C. Tubb's 'Dumarest' series.
IIRC, 'anti-agatics' were the name James Blish gave to the longevity
compounds in the 'Cities In Flight' series.
Cue the Greek/Latin scholars...
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:23:22 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.
Roger Sanger wrote :-
> Is there a temperature at which electrical activity stops as well?
At a core temperature of 20 degrees C, there is no measureable elctrical
activity in the human brain. Happens all the time with cardiopulmonary
bypass.
Larson Whipsnade wrote :-
> My question to you concerns our hypothetical corpsicle's personality;
> the part of hin that makes him who he is.
You're right ; the cellular basis of personality and consciousness are
cutting edge stuff. Heck, even the philosophers are interested in the
problem again <g>.
The case of Phineas Gage that you mention later in your post is one of the
many empirical observations that has helped the development of clinical
neurology.
He had the connections to his frontal lobes grossly damaged, and injury to
his amygdala ; so he developed the typical volatile personality seen with
damage of this sort.
We know what about one third of the cerebral cortex is associated with, as
well as most of the cerebellum, limbic areas, hypothalamus and brain stem.
The advent of functional imaging (e.g. SPECT/PET/fMR) will help tease out
what the rest of the cerebrum is for.
The big challenge is working out how this higher level of order emerges from
the connections between neurons. On average, each neuron has 1000 synapses.
There are 10^11 neurons in the average human brain. The problem is, ahem,
complex.
> Given the ability to "freeze" our low berth passenger without
> damaging his cells, or "hardware", could you state your opinion as to
> whether the process might upset his "software", or neural-electrical
activity?
None, if it's done properly - the brain is stopped at clock cycle x and
resumes at x+1 once thawed.
However, never underestimate the power of events to cause psychological
trauma (e.g. awareness during anaesthesia, inadequate pain relief during
procedures, etc. etc.)
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:45:35 -0000
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Indefinite life span
A thought
The longer the natural life span the less likely a natural death. Should be
a worry for those on anagathics, though I always liked the side effect table
in TNE.
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:45:38 -0000
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E. Berry
Sent: Sunday, 18 February 2001 10:41 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium
At 06:31 PM 2/18/2001, you wrote:
>Sorry to post this to the list but I have one on Ebay that I'm looking to
>get rid of and I've had no bids. Maybe cause I did the listing very
quickly.
>I got it from an online used game dealer and I'm looking to get my money
>back that's why the higher starting bid. Thanks.
Good luck. "Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium" is one of the great
woofers of Traveller.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
I don't know, apart from being riddled with errors and having very few of
the ships illustrated (by the way what is the vessel on the cover) I found
the book very useful for doing FFS1 redesigns for my Banners Pocket Empire
campaign.
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:45:39 -0000
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Artillery falls from the sky...
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Rupert Boleyn
Sent: Monday, 19 February 2001 3:19 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
On 18 Feb 2001, at 18:26, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Imagine a gigawatt (or more!) maser beam with a diameter of 100 meters
> or more sweeping across an area suspected of hiding guerillas. Trees
> exploding into sharpnel, bodies exploding like an egg in a microwave.
Not to mention the fun to be had from all those nice bits of metal heating
up,
arcing, and flying around.
> Truly a "terror weapon"!
>
> FWIW, I get around 400 kW/m^2 as the power density for such a beam.
> Even if that's not enough for the effects I described above, I suspect
> that it'd more than enough to be lethal, even if it takes a while to die.
IIRc it only takes a few degrees of 'instant' temperature rise to coagulate
quite a few of the protiens found in a person.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
Any ideas what effect this would have on a starship in space?
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:45:37 -0000
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: I'm running a campaign...
You could also use the famous Annic Nova for this. A ghost ship if ever
their was.
I use a vessel of this type as a training vessel in my Alston League Navy,
follow the links through the Banners Sector/Alston League Order of Battle
from
www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran
I have a coloured in version of the ship scanned from Double Adventure 1
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:05:19 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Tim Little wrote :-
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>> IIRc it only takes a few degrees of 'instant' temperature rise to
>> coagulate quite a few of the protiens found in a person.
>
> 400 kW/m^2 probably translates to about 1 kW/kg in a person. That's
> enough to raise their average temperature by about 1 K per 4 seconds.
Unconscious within 16 seconds (core to 41 C), fitting shortly thereafter.
The highest core temperature that anyone has survived intact is 46.5 C (heat
stroke). He was hospitalised for 3 weeks.
Skin will die above 48 C. Proteins irreversibly denature above 55 C.
The primary cause of death will be either burns and subsequent sepsis or
multi-organ failure (liver, brain, and kidney).
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 02:55:08 -0600
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com>
Subject: RE: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
Waaaait just a minute: We ALL know that Hotblack's Band, Disaster Area, is
the one whose audiovisual system violate many planets' strategic arms
limitations treaties. All others are merely pretenders. This from Douglas
Adams' Restaurant at the End of the Universe.
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Frank G. Pitt
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 1:39 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
Gregory Carl Kettler wrote :
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2001, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> > ... has everyone for gotten that it's February? It's TIME, people!
> >
> > Or is the Annual Near-C-Pirates/Hiroshima Morality tag-team flamefest
> > postponed this year?
>
> (Checks history book). No, sorry, I don't know anything about the time
> some pirates hit Hiroshima with a Near-C rock, so I can't comment on the
> morality of it.
Hmm......., I hereby claim the name Near-C for future use either as a
strategic weapons company or an industrial rock band. If there's not already
a trade-mark on the phrase
"Near-C Rocks!" (including the apostrophe)
The band will be inordinately proud of the time they got to gig with the
Bulldaggers and Hiroshima sat in on their set.
The strategic weapons company will be equally annoyed of the piratical
actions of Ron Post, because he never bothers to pay for the weapons he uses
from the company. Some marketing chizz thought that being able to say
"Near-C Rocks, The Choice of Ron Post" would be worth the cost of giving Ron
free rocks....
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:49:20 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
"None, if it's done properly - the brain is stopped at clock cycle x
and resumes at x+1 once thawed.
However, never underestimate the power of events to cause psychological
trauma (e.g. awareness during anaesthesia, inadequate pain relief during
procedures, etc. etc.)"
Mr. O'Connor,
Thank you sir for your usual high quality answer to my question. It
was clear, unstandable to laymen, and yet informative.
I don't know what it is you actually do for a career, but I do hope
that it utilizes your ability to make detailed technical information more
widely understood.
My thanks again.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3700
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Traveller-digest Monday, February 19 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3701
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Web Site Refurbishment
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Ship habitability
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re : Indefinite life span
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3690
Re: OT 'En Garde'
RE: TGOOs
RE: TGOOs
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
RE: TGOOs
RE: Ship habitability
Re: OT 'En Garde'
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re : Indefinite life span
RE: Ship habitability
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:01:48 -0000
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: Web Site Refurbishment
It has reached that time when I give my web site its annual overhaul. I
would welcome any helpful suggestions about this, and any problems that
people have had with the site.
You can check out its current form at www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 02:17:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
The Marines and the Air Force are also both all-volunteer
organizations. Historically, only the Army has had the draft.
The Marines consider themselve an elite, so I'm not sure they would
accept any reluctant warriors ...
- --- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
>
> On 18 Feb 2001, at 17:33, Charles R Hensley wrote:
>
> > Gerry Harris wrote:
> >
> > >The U.S. Navy has always been an all-volunteer force. When you
> were
> > >drafted, you were drafted into the Army, nothing else. You had to
> > >voluntarily go into the Navy.
> > >
> > >This isn't 18th century Britain with its press gangs, fella.
> >
> > I believe that the draft during WW2 was an all-service draft.
> During
> > Vietanm, the Navy acted as a dodge to the draft, ie: someone
> drafted
> > into the army could get out of it if another service accepted him
> before
> > his appear date. Therefore the Navy had a larger number of
> "volunteers"
> > who otherwise would not have volunteered for service at all.
>
> Was that also the case with the Marines? Or were their voluteers
> simply mad?
>
> --
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" — Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1
**********************************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:17:46 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Ship habitability
On 18 Feb 2001, at 19:51, Peter Newman wrote:
> Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote
>
> > What do the E-1, etc mean? I realise that they're the numerical names for
> > enlisted ranks, but I have no idea what they mean in real terms.
>
> Might I suggest checking your copy of High Guard or MT's expanded
> character generation rules which name all the ranks in Traveller
> terms. If you're asking what they mean in the _US_ military I'm
> sure someone will answer that or post a link.
That was what I was after, and I've been answered, thankyou.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:28:14 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Robert O'Connor wrote:
> Unconscious within 16 seconds (core to 41 C), fitting shortly thereafter.
I suspect that the brain might be close to the first affected organ.
After all, the head is likely to be the closest part of the body to an
(overhead) orbital maser. Temperature rise might be even faster there
than elsewhere -- and my (non-medical) guess would be that it is also
where temperature rises have the greatest effect.
> Skin will die above 48 C. Proteins irreversibly denature above 55 C.
Skin would probably take a lot of the energy. I don't know what the
attenuation depth in flesh for atmosphere-penetrating microwaves is.
Strangely, that data is lacking from my references. I understand that
domestic microwaves are of a frequency that would be absorbed by the
atmosphere over these sorts of distances and are particularly well
absorbed by liquid water, so I can't really extrapolate from what's
known of them to orbital maser weapons.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:31:31 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re : Indefinite life span
On 19 Feb 2001, at 19:23, Robert O'Connor wrote:
> The profession's emphasis today seems to be on 'cure' rather than 'care',
> which is a shame given that many treatments are essentially palliative in
> nature.
Probably spurred on by people who don't want to hear that condition 'x' can't
be cured, and that all that can be done is to relieve the symptoms.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 02:32:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
USN Ranks
E-1 Seaman (Airman, Fireman, Constructionman) Recruit
E-2 Seaman (Airman, Fireman, Constructionman) Apprentice
E-3 Seaman (Airman, Fireman, Constructionman)
E-4 Petty Officer Third Class
E-5 Petty Officer Second Class
E-6 Petty Officer First Class
E-7 Chief Petty Officer
E-8 Senior Chief Petty Officer
E-9 Master Chief Petty Officer
E-4 and above are considered non-commissioned officers. E-7 through
E-9, the chief petty officers, wear uniforms similar to commissioned
officers, and maintain their own berthing and messing facilities.
Petty officers are occassionally addressed by their rate. For example,
I'm a Journalist (JO) First Class in the U.S. Naval Reserve. I'm often
simply addressed as JO1 (Jay-Oh-One). Chiefs are always addressed as
"Chief," senior chiefs as either "Senior" or "Senior Chief" and master
chiefs are -always- referred to as "Master Chief."
To confuse things a little, boatswain's mates are sometimes simply
called "boats" and gunner's mates "guns."
- -- Gerry Harris (9 years active - 4.5 on USS Dwight D. Eisenhower (CVN
69) and four years reserves).
- --- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>
>
> On 19 Feb 2001, at 2:37, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
> > Mr. Boleyn,
> > Every berthing set-up I've heard about as the E-1 to E-6 ranks
> living in
> > one compartment, E-7 thru E-9 living in another, and the officers
> living
> > staterooms either doubled up, or sometimes in 4s' or 6's. Senior
> Officers
> > "usually get their own staterooms, but this will vary greatly
> depending on the
> > type of ship.
>
> What do the E-1, etc mean? I realise that they're the numerical names
> for
> enlisted ranks, but I have no idea what they mean in real terms.
> Could you
> please tell me what their titles are, and at what point you'd be an
> NCO. I was
> in the NZ Army, and we use a British style rank structure, with all
> ranks
> named, not numbered (and I can't remember our Naval enlisted ranks,
> anyway).
>
> > Carriers might give captains and admirals rather nice
> quarters; think 1 br
> > flats, abd many other officer's single staterroms, but on SSN's
> (where space is
> > at an extreme premium) only the CO will get to bunk alone.
> Everyone else is
> > crammed in.
>
> I can understand that on a sub, but on a cruiser?
>
> > The prevailing US military culture values "Toys before Boys".
>
> Here it seems to be just 'hanging on to what we've got', as the pay,
> conditions
> and gear all suck. This may be getting better in the next few years,
> for the
> Army, anyway.
>
> > While US
> > military personnel aren't treated as badly as the CIS's, the
> quality of life is
> > rather low. It's really surprising that the retention rate isn't
> lower than it
> > already is.
>
> Ours is terrible, and once the thrill of active service in East Timor
> wears off
> I expect it to get even worse - our pay, even counting all the
> allowances, is
> so much worse than that of the Aussies (even if you ignore the
> exchange rate)
> that people'll be leaving in whilesale lots. It's not hepling that
> the Aussie
> Army said they'd quite happily take our guys on, and often even give
> them their
> old rank back fairly quickly, though given the quality of some of
> their boys
> back in '92 when I was on excerise there I'm not surprised (no insult
> intend -
> we've got pur share of incompetents, too).
>
> --
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" — Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1
**********************************************************************************************
__________________________________________________
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Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:01:28 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Wouldn't BD or even a vacc-suit give some protection against this?
Other Rob
Timothy Little wrote:
> Robert O'Connor wrote:
> > Unconscious within 16 seconds (core to 41 C), fitting shortly thereafter.
>
> I suspect that the brain might be close to the first affected organ.
> After all, the head is likely to be the closest part of the body to an
> (overhead) orbital maser. Temperature rise might be even faster there
> than elsewhere -- and my (non-medical) guess would be that it is also
> where temperature rises have the greatest effect.
>
> > Skin will die above 48 C. Proteins irreversibly denature above 55 C.
>
> Skin would probably take a lot of the energy. I don't know what the
> attenuation depth in flesh for atmosphere-penetrating microwaves is.
> Strangely, that data is lacking from my references. I understand that
> domestic microwaves are of a frequency that would be absorbed by the
> atmosphere over these sorts of distances and are particularly well
> absorbed by liquid water, so I can't really extrapolate from what's
> known of them to orbital maser weapons.
>
> --
> IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
> Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 01:02:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
In mail you write:
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>> IIRc it only takes a few degrees of 'instant' temperature rise to
>> coagulate quite a few of the protiens found in a person.
>
> 400 kW/m^2 probably translates to about 1 kW/kg in a person. That's
> enough to raise their average temperature by about 1 K per 4 seconds.
> Heating would be very uneven though, so some parts would be a lot
> hotter than others. Not a pretty picture if the beam lingers for more
> than a moment or two.
I figure they'd just sweep it along somewhat faster than you can run,
given the terrain. What's the world record for the 100 meter? A bit
under 10 seconds?
That'd be around around 2.5 K.
And, of course, there's something to be said for sweeping it along
*slowly* as a way to "herd" the enemy.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 01:49:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3690
In mail you write:
> I took a short course in Atomic Demolition Munitions as a US Army
> Engineer LT in the early 1980s (I still keep the class on one version
> of my resume). The ADM was 1950-60s technology and "man-portable."
> One of their missions was dam removable (with the side effect of
> removing the local neighborhood). They were larger than what I'd
> consider to be man-portable. A more proper title might be:
> truck-portable or helicopter portable. The Army got rid of the
> mission in the mid-80s.
As I've had it explained to me "man-portable" often means "it's got
enough handles to let enough men grab on to lift it and it doesn't
weigh more than they can manage for 100 yards or so" :-)
> Fortunately, I have no practical experience.
Well, if you *did*, you couldn't talk about it. And it'd mean the US
was a lot better at hiding things than I thought.
BTW, I'm reminded of a guy who tried to tell some of us that the US had
used a couple of tacnukes in Nam...
ObTrav: I don't *think* nuke demolitions violate the Imperial rules of
war as long as they are used *strictly* in an engineering role. So you
can't use them to breach defenes or attack trrops, but you could use
them to destroy an underground complex *after* you'd captured it. Or to
blast a pass thru mountains or create a harbor.
Taking out that dam might be a little iffy.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 01:57:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: OT 'En Garde'
In mail you write:
> This little gem of a game was recently published in the UK by... wait for
> it... 'Small Furry Creatures Press' (or they might have been 'Fuzzy...')
> Whatever, well worth a go. A number of my friends participate in a PBEM
> game, which has been extended by a variant covering the lives of their
> lady Loves (based on the movie 'Dangerous Liasons').
Are the extra rules available online?
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:16:31 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: TGOOs
>
> In mail you write:
>
> > At 10:54 AM 2/18/01 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> >> I don't recall seeing bangpaths for addresses.
> >
> > ??? What the heck is a "bangpath"? A hyperlink?
>
> Back when I first got on the Internet, mail was addressed using
> bangpaths. "Domains" didn't exist.
>
> The secondary address in my sig dates back almost that far. as a
> bangpath addres, it'd be given as:
>
> ...!tektronics!reed!qiclab!leonard (I think that's right)
>
If anyone hadn't guessed, 'bang' is ancient hacker (computer expert, not
cracker) slang for the exclamation mark.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:22:04 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: TGOOs
Dang, sorry, just read Jeff's post where he explains bangs.
Dean
> > In mail you write:
> >
> > > At 10:54 AM 2/18/01 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> > >> I don't recall seeing bangpaths for addresses.
> > >
> > > ??? What the heck is a "bangpath"? A hyperlink?
> >
> > Back when I first got on the Internet, mail was addressed using
> > bangpaths. "Domains" didn't exist.
> >
> > The secondary address in my sig dates back almost that far. as a
> > bangpath addres, it'd be given as:
> >
> > ...!tektronics!reed!qiclab!leonard (I think that's right)
> >
>
> If anyone hadn't guessed, 'bang' is ancient hacker (computer
> expert, not
> cracker) slang for the exclamation mark.
>
> Dean
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:52:32 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Mikko Parviainen wrote :-
(Referring to induced and accidental hypothermia):-
> Do you have any references? I am very interested in reading them.
There should be something on the web covering :-
cardiopulmonary bypass - 'heart-lung machines'
induced hypothermia for neurosurgery
Failing that, hit any cardiac surgery or cardiac anaesthesia or
neuroanaesthesia text.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:56:11 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.
Larson Whipsnade wrote :-
> I don't know what it is you actually do for a career, but I do hope
> that it utilizes your ability to make detailed technical information
> more widely understood.
Aw, shucks.
I'm just a simple medical doctor with a biochem/physiology degree.
My current occupation is 'slave' (oops, specialist in training).
When I grow up, I want to be an anaesthetist that does some intensive care
work. Or is that the other way around?
Getting paid to stop people feeling too sore when the surgeons have at them
has some appeal.
Now returning you to your list, already in progress...
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:08:05 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Mikko, this is a nice concise review of induced hypothermia :-
http://www.nda.ox.ac.uk/wfsa/dl/html/reviews/rev001.htm
(historical background and why we might want to use it clinically)
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 07:18:43 -0600 (CST)
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: RE: TGOOs
On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Jones, Dean wrote:
> If anyone hadn't guessed, 'bang' is ancient hacker (computer expert, not
> cracker) slang for the exclamation mark.
Ancient maybe, but not dead. Just a year ago I was taught that "set!" is
pronounced "set-bang" in Scheme. And "#!" is pronounced "shebang" in
Perl.
Greg Kettler
"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you
may not actually need an explicit loop exit. The loop will be terminated
automatically at the appropriate moment."
-Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:44:18 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
> From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> On 19 Feb 2001, at 2:37, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> > While US
> > military personnel aren't treated as badly as the CIS's, the quality of
> > life is rather low. It's really surprising that the retention rate
> > isn't lower than it already is.
>
> Ours is terrible, and once the thrill of active service in East Timor
> wears off I expect it to get even worse - our pay, even counting all the
> allowances, is so much worse than that of the Aussies (even if you ignore
> the exchange rate) that people'll be leaving in whilesale lots. It's not
> hepling that the Aussie Army said they'd quite happily take our guys on,
> and often even give them their old rank back fairly quickly, though given
> the quality of some of their boys back in '92 when I was on excerise
> there I'm not surprised (no insult intend - we've got pur share of
> incompetents, too).
Of course, it is quite conceivable that the reason why Australia is
poaching Kiwi personnel is because there is a chronic shortfall of recruits
and a low retention rate in the Australian military too...
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:53:24 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: OT 'En Garde'
> From: "Andrew Long"
> Whatever, well worth a go. A number of my friends participate in a PBEM
> game, which has been extended by a variant covering the lives of their
> lady Loves (based on the movie 'Dangerous Liasons').
Actually back in the '80s I tried to get a game going, and discovered that
the female gamers in my group really really didn't want to know about a
game that had gender specific roles built into it. I was of course
planning on ignoring/changing this, but they just refused to play it. So I
just warmed up D&D campaign number 500....
(Sigh.)
Oh, and En Garde is _not_ OT! Rather, it is a sourcebook for the
construction of Noble and other high-level political scenarios...
Eg: Your character is assigned to Prince Lucan's security detachment...
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:48:53 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
On 18 Feb 2001, at 16:17, Steve Daniels wrote:
> And fundamentally, this is a problem of the court system. In the 3I,
> the courts exist only at the pleasure of the nobility. There are no
> rules of stare decisis, i.e., no binding precedent. Time for appeals
> can be limited or expanded by the noble in charge.
Hmm - but the emperor would set a baseline (or previous emperors set
one from which the current works) and the sector dukes would generally
follow that lead but with some possible variance. Variance could
increase down to planetary barons. So there's probably a gradient of
justice throughout the Imperium - some areas may be generally known
as strict (or strict on certain issues) while others are more lenient.
Has anyone given thought to what the judicial feel different areas of
their Imperium are known for?
(I find the ideas of different cultural regions fascinating, and
consistent with how things seem to develop in RL. Plus they can add
flavor to a game, i.e. you know someone's an Antarean from his accent,
etc. and can reasonably expect certain beliefs and behaviors from him.)
> There is no precedence. Whatever the noble says. Including seizures
> of your current land, regardless of whatever title you may claim.
>
> Archduke Norris to Titled Owner of nice hunting land:
> "Nice place you have here. Excuse me. Nice place *I* have here.
> You have 30 seconds to leave forever."
>
> In canon, there is very little evidence of any significant legal framework,
> and particularly little that might resemble modern democratic systems.
But not a lot of evidence for abuse of power as shown above, right?
I do recall an adventure in a Traveller's Digest where the adventurers
are at the main Scout computer base, researching the validity of a
particular land claim. Seems the local computer records had been wiped
and they went to the old, ancient computer records in the Scout
computer center to recreate the information. This makes it sound like
there was a feeling of some kind of framework/precent system (at least
among Mssrs.Thomas and Fulgate).
Personnally, I imagine maybe early on in the history of the Imperium
(perhaps up until the Civil War period [and it's Syleafication]) the
nobles having broad powers without any binding baggage other than the
whims of their leige lord. But in "modern times" *some* kind of system
has arisen to, if nothing else, help the nobles (and GM) deal with
large numbers of issues (perhaps as they take on more judicial duties
as the Imperium expansion settles down). But it would also help level
out large variances in judicial outcomes. I would picture modern
nobles being hogtied by the system, but not completely free to do
whatever they want either.
That article I posted about last week, "Scepter and Starship" (aka
"Robe and Blaster"), had lots of interesting rights and benefits of
being a noble, which is cool (and provides incentives for players), but
it'd also be interesting to have a list of duties and obligations of
nobility. (I know GT: Nobles (is coming/has come)? out, but I haven't
seen it, and I don't have T4's Missions of State to see
what it says about the nobility either. Are there other canon/non-canon
sources of information?)
Rob D.
- --
Rob
What part of 'gestalt' don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von 'gestalt' verstehen Sie nicht?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:50:36 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re : Indefinite life span
>From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
> > Paul Drye wrote :-
> > The key point is that accidents are essentially random, so a large
> > enough group has a "half-life".
>
>I thought that life expectancy was just that - the age at which 50% of a
>given cohort are still alive.
I put it into quotes in an attempt to imply radioactive half-life, which has
some peculiar features if you replace the atoms with people who act the same
way.
My point was, in the West now life expectancy is a pretty useful figure.
Call it eighty years, just to round it off. A very large fraction of the
population will die between the ages of 60 and 90, so working on the
assumption that one will live for eighty years is not a bad guess.
But on the other hand, if aging is stopped completely, death would be
largely random -- accidents and contagious disease (this admittedly neglects
stuff like heart disease, but then the argument transforms into "what is
aging" and I'm not touching that with a 3.048 meter pole. Leave it out for
simplicity's sake). If death is random, you can't make a good guess at how
long you'd live.
Suppose the half-life were 804 years, as your rough calculation suggests.
Approximately ten percent of the population would still be alive at the 2500
year mark. This difference in the degree of deviation from the life
expectancy was what I was getting at -- no-one today, let alone ten percent
of us, lives for three times our canonical three-score-and-ten,
yogurt-gulping Azeris notwithstanding.
>The profession's emphasis today seems to be on 'cure' rather than 'care',
>which is a shame given that many treatments are essentially palliative in
>nature.
Human nature seems to find solving a problem much more interesting than
preventing the problem from occurring in the first place.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:18:39 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
At 03:43 AM 2/19/01 +0000, Larsen E Whipsnade wrote:
>Mr. Boleyn,
> I'm afraid I can't translate the E rankings into ground forces terms
> with any accuracy. I'm sure that many of the ex-infantry here on the TML
> will be reading this thread and jump in to give you a hand.
Well, I'm not ex-infantry (I'll finish my 19th year in the Navy next
month), but as no one else has....
(Where two titles are given, the first is Army and the second is USMC.)
E1 - Private1/Private
E2 - Private 2/Private First Class
E3 - Private First Class/Lance Corporal
E4 - Corporal
E5 - Sergeant
E6 - Staff Sergeant
E7 - Sergeant First Class/Gunnery Sergeant
E8 - Master Sergeant
E9 - Sergeant Major
Incidentally, in the US Navy the term "rank" refers only to
officers. Enlisted men have "rates," which are not to be confused with
"ratings." My rate is PO1/E6, and my rating is Electronics Technician
(formerly Radioman). Put the two together, and I'm an Electronics
Technician First Class (ET1). One step down is an ET2; one step up is an
ETC (Chief Electronics Technician).
No one has discussed the "O" ranks (we don't seem to have any ex-officers
around here), but they're pretty much the same throughout the
English-speaking world, as far as I can tell.
(The first title given is Navy, and the second is Army/USMC.)
O1 - Ensign/2nd Lieutenant
O2 - Lieutenant (junior grade)/1st Lieutenant
O3 - Lieutenant/Captain
O4 - Lieutenant Commander/Major
O5 - Commander/Lieutenant Colonel
O6 - Captain/Colonel
O7 - Rear Admiral (lower half)/Brigadier General
O8 - Rear Admiral (upper half)/Major General
O9 - Vice Admiral/Lieutenant General
O10 - Admiral/General
(A Navy O7 used to be a Commodore, but that was changed sometime in the mid
'80s. Long story.)
There are also Warrant Officer ranks, senior to all enlisted but
(theoretically) junior to all officer ranks. The Navy has four of these,
the Army has five.
> In my example, because I tested well, signed up for the nuc
> propulsion program, and made it through boot camp succesfully, I was made
> an E-3 at graduation. I was an E-4 six weeks later after passing through
> my first training hurdle; an "A" school. Over the remaining time in my 6
> year enlistment, I earned E-5 and E-6 the regular way. I would have been
> promoted to E-7 the year I got out.
In my case, having signed up as a sub RM candidate, volunteering for sub
duty and signing for six years vice the usual four, I was made an instant
E3 (I was addressed as "Recruit" during boot camp, like everyone else, and
wore a bare sleeve, but I was being paid as an E3 from the day I reported
in and I sewed the E3 stripes on the day I left boot camp) and was advanced
to E4 the day I completed RM A school, four and a half months later. Like
Mr Whipsnade, I made E5 and E6 in the usual manner. (Don't expect to ever
see E7, but I have three years left....)
James
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3701
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3702
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Traveller-digest Monday, February 19 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3702
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re : Indefinite life span
Re: Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)
Re: OT 'En Garde'
Anti-aging multi-faceted (attn: Robert)...
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Jump shadows and 100D limits
RE: Freezing, cloning, etc.
RE: Ship habitability
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
RE: TGOOs
RE: Ship habitability
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:08:56 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
At 07:26 AM 2/17/01 +0000, Doug Berry wrote:
> >The goal is to have the water actually running for no more than three
> >minutes per shower. People who try taking long showers are known as "water
> >buffalos," and are soon straightened out. 8)
>
>Perhaps you could clear something up for me. I've heard that sometimes sub
>crewmembers are awarded "real showers" for doing something notable.. i.e.,
>you can actually soak for a few minutes.
>
>Myth or truth?
I've never seen it done, in a total of 10.6+ years on three different
boats, but I suppose it's possible....
James
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:10:27 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
At 03:03 PM 2/18/01 -0600, Charles Hensley wrote:
>James wrote:
>
> ><Snip a fascinating description of life on a target. (There are two
>types
>of ships - submarines and targets.)>
>
>I have to disagree here. There are 3 types of ships: targets,
>submarines, and submarine killers
Though in my experience, the only reliable sub killers are submarines
themselves....
James
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:03:31 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
> Terry Carlino wrote:
>
> > There's got to be some kind of legal framework or Trade and Commerce
would
> > grind to a halt.
>
> Which is why I have suggested a Trade-oriented Uniform Commercial
> Code approach amongst significant trading worlds. It makes business
> predictable, therefore, less costly. Personal freedoms and liberties,
> big deal. Getting paid, risk of loss issues, terms of trade, contracts,
> dispute arbitration: these things get handled efficiently else business
suffers.
>
> Unpredictable and slow court systems would hurt megacorps more than
> help them. A predictable system that allows them to calculate costs
> and benefits is vital.
>
If trade as promoted as much as the Emperor likes to boast, the corporate
court's procedures could be very streamlined. I would imagine the largest
delay possible would be the time for the advocates of both parties' to reach
the court's world.
>
<SNIP>
> > Some cases are tremendously complex even when the core matter is
> > extremely simple. And some things can be made more complex if you have
> > enough money to spend.
>
> Only if the Court tolerates it.
What would cost so much? If you need experts, the noble goes to the
university (or just make sure the magistrate is knowledgeable in corporate
affairs). We are not talking environmental litigation or products
liability, these courts would be reserved for contract disputes. And the
factfinder would have some knowledge in the area as well.
Now, if the shareholders of the corporation are trying to bring a claim on
behalf of the corporation against the board's wishes, then you have
conditions ripe for delay - but on behalf of the board of directors. This
derivative action would need to be resolved in the corporation's home court
before it got to the contract claim stage (but the contract claim would
proceed with the same quickness).
>
<SNIP>
> > Exactly, and if the noble in charge believes the best way to handle the
case
> > is to make it drag on then it will.
>
> Then it isn't the fault of the courts or legal system, is it?
>
> If it's all at a noble's whim, as you say below, is it really a
> 'system' at all? I think not.
>
I can't imagine the average noble in charge of his world's corporate court
woud have the resources or willingness to irk both parties of the potential
suit. If a corp was powerful enough they would have other nobles willing to
intercede for them. And afterwards they'd remember which noble stuck it to
them and be able to punish them accordingly if they wanted to. Or, on
planets where the noble is known for delaying tactics, the parties could
work out their own decision, or choose an alternate court, and then Sir
Whoozit is out the court fees. A noble who delays risks the disapproval of
the Emperor's stated trade policy, in most cases.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 06:38:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Bernie McGeehan <einreb62@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re : Indefinite life span
This article was on the AP newswire yesterday:
Sunday February 18 7:18 PM ET
Experts Discuss Life Expectancy
BY PAUL RECER, AP Science Writer
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - Human life expectancy has
increased by three decades since 1900
and may reach 85 for babies born in this
century, but that may be near the upper limit unless
science finds ways to dramatically slow the
aging process, some researchers said Sunday.
Claims by some scientists that humans in this
century will have a life expectancy of 100 or
even 120 are not realistic and not supported by
the trends measuring the rates of death, said
S. Jay Olshansky of the University of Illinois,
Chicago.
``We anticipate that many people here today will
live long enough to witness a life
expectancy of 85 years, but everybody alive
today will be long dead before a life expectancy
of 100 is achieved, if ever,'' said Olshansky.
The researcher was the head of a panel of
experts that on Sunday analyzed trends in human
life expectancy at the national meeting of the
American Association for the Advancement of
Science (news - web sites).
Olshansky said there are no ``magic potions,
hormones, antioxidants, forms of genetic
engineering or biomedical technologies that
exist today that would permit a life expectancy
of 120 or 150 years as some people have
claimed.''
Leonard Hayflick, an expert on aging at the
University of California, San Francisco,
denounced what he called ``outrageous claims''
by some scientists that humans are capable
to living well past 100 years.
``Superlongevity,'' he said ``is simply not
possible.''
Hayflick said that even if the most common
causes of death - cancer, heart disease and
stroke - were eliminated, ``the increase in life
expectancy would be no more than 15 years.''
With those death causes gone, he said, the true
cause of death would be revealed: the aging
process.
Aging, he said, is a decline on a molecular
level that makes people ``increasingly vulnerable
to disease'' and that this process is not
receiving much research attention.
Instead, most aging research, said Hayflick,
concentrates on the age-related diseases that can
be easily identified, such as heart attack,
stroke, cancer and Alzheimer's disease (news - web
sites).
Nature designed humans to peak physically at
about age 20, to assure reproduction and
survival of the species, he said. After that,
humans ``coast for another four to five decades''
and it is the length of this coast that
determines longevity
Kaare Christensen of the University of Denmark
said the future may not be as bleak as
Olshansky and Hayflick suggest.
He said studies in Sweden, where every citizen
has been listed on health roles for about 200
years, show that the upper limit for the oldest
of the old at the age of death is still going up.
A study published last year showed that the
oldest person to die in that country in 1999 was
108.
Christensen said that the age at death of the
oldest old continues to increase ``and the is no
evidence that we are pushing up against the
limits.''
Jeanne Calment, a Frenchwoman, died in 1997 at
the oldest documental age of 122.45 years.
But measuring the maximum age achieved by a
remarkable individual does not directly
correspond to life expectancy, which is a
measure of how long half of the population born at
a specific time can expect to live, said other
experts.
Olshansky said the developed nations of the
world have already enjoyed the most dramatic
improvement in life expectancy in human history.
An American female born in 1900 had a life
expectancy of 48.9 years. By 1995, life
expectancy for a newborn girl was 79.
And there continues to be small gains. Death
rates from 1985 to 1995 declined by 1.5
percent in France, 1.2 percent in Japan and 0.4
percent in the U.S., said Olshansky.
Projecting these trends forward, he said, would
give a combined male and female life
expectancy of 85 years in France by 2033 and in
Japan in 2035. Americans would not
achieve a life expectancy of 85 until 2182,
Olshansky said.
The Social Security Administration (news - web
sites) has forecast that U.S. life expectancy
at birth will rise to 79.3 years for males and
83.9 years for females by 2070. But to achieve
this, said Olshansky, would require a faster
decline in death rates for all ages.
For instance, to achieve the Social Security
estimate, he said, would require that death rates
for the population aged birth to 30 would have
to approach zero.
This, said Olshansky, is ``biologically
implausible and over optimistic.''
=====
"I don't know much about what I like, but I do know Art." me @ the Rijksmuseum, Amsterdam (Terra/Sol 3)http://prattfall.tripod.com/index.html
__________________________________________________
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Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 07:54:52 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)
On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 06:22:00 -0800 rodge@nwnexus.com (Roger Sanger) wrote:
>Therefore, many people are taking the drug based on the research findings of
>animal experiments
>(you only have to wait about 3 years for those to be completed). These
>people have become
>self-selected guinea pigs. Who wants to be in the human longevity trial when
>there's a chance you
>could be in the control group taking nothing more than sugar pills (to keep
>the experiment
>"double-blind" to guard against the "placebo effect", neither the researchers
>nor the recipients
>know who is getting the experimental drug nor who is getting the placebo).
Whether or not the real-scale human trials takes 200 years or not, the
scientists involved generally have to publish, or perish.
Do you have any references?
Bruce Johnson
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 07:14:05 -0800
From: "Brian Jenkins" <brianjenk@home.com>
Subject: Re: OT 'En Garde'
There are actually several varients of En Garde online with extra rules.
You can find several by going to the En Garde PBEM webring at
www.hijenks.com/egwebring
Brian
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2001 1:57 AM
Subject: Re: OT 'En Garde'
> In mail you write:
>
> > This little gem of a game was recently published in the UK by... wait
for
> > it... 'Small Furry Creatures Press' (or they might have been 'Fuzzy...')
> > Whatever, well worth a go. A number of my friends participate in a PBEM
> > game, which has been extended by a variant covering the lives of their
> > lady Loves (based on the movie 'Dangerous Liasons').
>
> Are the extra rules available online?
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 06:04:55 -0800
From: Roger Sanger <rodge@nwnexus.com>
Subject: Anti-aging multi-faceted (attn: Robert)...
> Robert O'Connor wrote:
> Whoa!
That's exactly what I said when I first learned of it.
> Caloric restriction is the only modality I am aware of for which there is
> good evidence for increase of longevity.
Caloric restriction is the standard against which the effectiveness of other modalities are
compared.
> There are the usual tentative reports with the typical gamut of
> anti-oxidants and hormone receptor blockers, which have been popping up
> since the 1950s.
Anti-oxidants, hormones, and hormone receptor blockers are all effective to a degree. They can
add a couple decades to your life. But the "anagathic" I was referring to extends a species'
maximum genetic lifespan.
> I would be *very* interested to see your [anagathics] references so that I could review them
> myself.
I was planning to post a seperate message on real life anagathics, and will do so when time
permits. I'll be sure to include my references.
> Note that telomeres are only part of the problem (referring to an earlier
> post of yours).
True. Telomeres are just one facet of aging. "The Aging Process" is a misnomer, as there are
currently 8 known categories of aging processes:
Free radicals (which cause oxidation and rancidity).
Cross-linkers (causing tissues to become stiff, such as cigarette smoke and its affect on the
arteries).
Immunological decline and dysfunction (thymus gland shrinkage, autoimmune diseases, etc.)
Brain chemical decline and dysfunction (e.g., depletion of neurotransmitters with age).
Neuroendocrinal decline and dysfunction (weaker gland function and hormone production with
age).
Lipofuscin accumulation (cellular waste products that choke brain tissue, liver spots, etc.).
Aging clocks, such as killer hormones and programmed senescence (the Hayflick Limit).
Degenerative diseases (thousands of them, with the main ones being atheroschlerosis,
inflamation, and various pathogens such as bacteria, fungus, viruses, etc.).
As for telomeres, they have yet to show a direct cause/effect relationship between telomere length
and the Hayflick Limit.
Here's a good interview that covers the subject of telomeres:
http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag98/feb98_interview.html
Food for thought,
Rodge
P.S.: I'm almost ready to send my first updated For Sale list. Lots more items have been added
to the list. There are over 2500 items in my RPG collection, but I've only inventoied about 1/3
of it all so far. If there is anything in particular you are looking for, let me know, and I'll
certainly keep my eyes out for it as I continue to log this stuff in. I should be sending the
updated For Sale List by Friday. RS
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:34:41
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
There are a few of us ex-officers on the list (Captain, USAF Reserve
Retired). The use of the same names for different ranks between the Navy and
the "ground" forces, i.e., Lieutenant and Captain, can cause some confusion
at times. (I got a great reception a few years ago when entering a Naval
base and showing my reserve Captain's ID card.) US Space Command, based here
in Colorado Springs, is composed of members from all of the services (and
within NORAD, allied countries as well). To keep things clear, care is
usually taken to include USN with the Navy Lieutenant and Captain ranks. In
the Army and the Air Force (spun off from the Army), both 1st and 2nd
Lieutenants are generally addressed as "Lieutenant".
John
>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain >
>...
>No one has discussed the "O" ranks (we don't seem to have any ex-officers
>around here), but they're pretty much the same throughout the
>English-speaking world, as far as I can tell.
>
>(The first title given is Navy, and the second is Army/USMC.)
>
>O1 - Ensign/2nd Lieutenant
>O2 - Lieutenant (junior grade)/1st Lieutenant
>O3 - Lieutenant/Captain
>O4 - Lieutenant Commander/Major
>O5 - Commander/Lieutenant Colonel
>O6 - Captain/Colonel
>O7 - Rear Admiral (lower half)/Brigadier General
>O8 - Rear Admiral (upper half)/Major General
>O9 - Vice Admiral/Lieutenant General
>O10 - Admiral/General
>...
>James
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:41:43 -0000
From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
A friend of mine was drafted in 1969. When he showed up, a Marine was there
and offered the recruits three more months of freedom if they joined the
Corp.
My friend joined the Marines, and got an extra three months before having to
show up for boot camp. I am not sure if they told him that in the Marines
you had to do 4 years, compared to only 2 in the Army.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:45:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Jump shadows and 100D limits
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
<snipped>
>My current difficulties arise with the side effects of jump shadows.
<snipped>
>If you think all of the above is confusing, I'm not even going to get
>started on the fact that the bodies exerting the 100D limits move.
>Well, after the screed above, I guess you can see why I'm having a
>little trouble with jump, 100D limits, and jump shadows.
All too scarey for me. FWIW, I don't think that jump shadows
are worth the trouble. IMTU, the jump 'path' is perpendicular
to all three traditional dimensions. This means that the
straight-line path in 'real space' between entering and exiting
jump is entirely irrelevent. What is relevent is the gravetic
flux at the jump point. Jumping from too close to a big mass
introduces uncertainty in the jump that can lead to missjump.
In the past I have had no effect of a mass near the jump exit
point (other than a risk of trying to come out of jump in a
planet, which was a significant risk when aiming for a point
within 100D of a world), but I am considering using DMs for
the missjump roll based on the 100D limit of the target world.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:44:56 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Freezing, cloning, etc.
>
> Larson Whipsnade wrote :-
> > I don't know what it is you actually do for a career, but I do hope
> > that it utilizes your ability to make detailed technical information
> > more widely understood.
> Aw, shucks.
> I'm just a simple medical doctor with a biochem/physiology degree.
> My current occupation is 'slave' (oops, specialist in training).
>
> When I grow up, I want to be an anaesthetist that does some
> intensive care
> work. Or is that the other way around?
When you become an anaesthetist you want to grow up? :)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 07:31:50
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
At 08:18 AM 2/19/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>(Where two titles are given, the first is Army and the second is USMC.)
>E4 - Corporal
The Army also has the Specialist rank at E-4. Formally known as Specialist
4th Class, or Spec 4. There used to be an entire parallel rank structure
for enlisted men in non-leadership positions, up through E-7.
>E8 - Master Sergeant
With the additional Army rank at this level of First Sergeant. First
sergeants are the senior NCOs in a company. When you are an E-1 or -2,
they are God.
>E9 - Sergeant Major
Again, US Army has two levels at this rank.. the vanilla SM, and Command
Sergeants Major. CSMs are the senior NCOs in battalion or larger formations.
Sergeants Major are terrifying forces of nature. They really run the Army,
although they let the officers pretend that they have something to do with
it. Very tolerant ones will even call 2nd Lieutenants "sir" on occasion.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
Embrace Fascism. The uniforms look cool
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:53:04 -0000
From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Maybe contracts would include a provision that all disputes would be decided
according to a particular world's law, or even in the courts of a particular
world. Some worlds might have well developed and respected bodies of
commercial law, like Delaware does with corporations. Resolving legal
disputes might even become a big industry on some worlds.
Or, contracts might include binding arbitration if the imperial system is
slow or corrupt. But there must be some form of effective contract
enforcement, if commerce is anything but local.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:09:55 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: TGOOs
>
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Jones, Dean wrote:
>
> > If anyone hadn't guessed, 'bang' is ancient hacker
> (computer expert, not
> > cracker) slang for the exclamation mark.
>
> Ancient maybe, but not dead. Just a year ago I was taught
> that "set!" is
> pronounced "set-bang" in Scheme. And "#!" is pronounced "shebang" in
> Perl.
>
Dead? Absolutely not! I myself still refer to the 'bit bucket' and black
holes...and I even realised I'd referred to 'Black Magic' the other day!
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:13:21 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
I believe that the ImpNavy also uses the Ratings system (Hogh Guard)
Dean
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain
> [mailto:alasdair.maciain@snet.net]
> Sent: 19 February 2001 13:19
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: RE: Ship habitability
>
>
> At 03:43 AM 2/19/01 +0000, Larsen E Whipsnade wrote:
> >Mr. Boleyn,
> > I'm afraid I can't translate the E rankings into ground
> forces terms
> > with any accuracy. I'm sure that many of the ex-infantry
> here on the TML
> > will be reading this thread and jump in to give you a hand.
>
> Well, I'm not ex-infantry (I'll finish my 19th year in the Navy next
> month), but as no one else has....
>
> (Where two titles are given, the first is Army and the second
> is USMC.)
>
> E1 - Private1/Private
> E2 - Private 2/Private First Class
> E3 - Private First Class/Lance Corporal
> E4 - Corporal
> E5 - Sergeant
> E6 - Staff Sergeant
> E7 - Sergeant First Class/Gunnery Sergeant
> E8 - Master Sergeant
> E9 - Sergeant Major
>
> Incidentally, in the US Navy the term "rank" refers only to
> officers. Enlisted men have "rates," which are not to be
> confused with
> "ratings." My rate is PO1/E6, and my rating is Electronics
> Technician
> (formerly Radioman). Put the two together, and I'm an Electronics
> Technician First Class (ET1). One step down is an ET2; one
> step up is an
> ETC (Chief Electronics Technician).
>
> No one has discussed the "O" ranks (we don't seem to have any
> ex-officers
> around here), but they're pretty much the same throughout the
> English-speaking world, as far as I can tell.
>
> (The first title given is Navy, and the second is Army/USMC.)
>
> O1 - Ensign/2nd Lieutenant
> O2 - Lieutenant (junior grade)/1st Lieutenant
> O3 - Lieutenant/Captain
> O4 - Lieutenant Commander/Major
> O5 - Commander/Lieutenant Colonel
> O6 - Captain/Colonel
> O7 - Rear Admiral (lower half)/Brigadier General
> O8 - Rear Admiral (upper half)/Major General
> O9 - Vice Admiral/Lieutenant General
> O10 - Admiral/General
>
> (A Navy O7 used to be a Commodore, but that was changed
> sometime in the mid
> '80s. Long story.)
>
> There are also Warrant Officer ranks, senior to all enlisted but
> (theoretically) junior to all officer ranks. The Navy has
> four of these,
> the Army has five.
>
> > In my example, because I tested well, signed up for the nuc
> > propulsion program, and made it through boot camp
> succesfully, I was made
> > an E-3 at graduation. I was an E-4 six weeks later after
> passing through
> > my first training hurdle; an "A" school. Over the
> remaining time in my 6
> > year enlistment, I earned E-5 and E-6 the regular way. I
> would have been
> > promoted to E-7 the year I got out.
>
> In my case, having signed up as a sub RM candidate,
> volunteering for sub
> duty and signing for six years vice the usual four, I was
> made an instant
> E3 (I was addressed as "Recruit" during boot camp, like
> everyone else, and
> wore a bare sleeve, but I was being paid as an E3 from the
> day I reported
> in and I sewed the E3 stripes on the day I left boot camp)
> and was advanced
> to E4 the day I completed RM A school, four and a half months
> later. Like
> Mr Whipsnade, I made E5 and E6 in the usual manner. (Don't
> expect to ever
> see E7, but I have three years left....)
>
>
> James
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:19:51 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
On 19 Feb 2001, at 9:03, Michael Daumen wrote:
<SNIP>
> I can't imagine the average noble in charge of his world's corporate court
> woud have the resources or willingness to irk both parties of the potential
> suit. If a corp was powerful enough they would have other nobles willing to
> intercede for them. And afterwards they'd remember which noble stuck it to
> them and be able to punish them accordingly if they wanted to. Or, on
> planets where the noble is known for delaying tactics, the parties could
> work out their own decision, or choose an alternate court, and then Sir
> Whoozit is out the court fees. A noble who delays risks the disapproval of
> the Emperor's stated trade policy, in most cases.
I'm nowhere near a lawyer (either physically, or professionally), but I
was pondering - if a nobles regularly had to adjudicate between
possibly conflicting self-interests (the state vs. his shares in
megacorp.X), wouldn't that be seen (by his peers and higher-ranking
nobles, if not the population at large) as a Bad Thing ripe for
corruption? If so, perhaps nobles delegate the judicial duties to
professional judges (elected/appointed by the local peerage?), with
final appeal to the noble themself in extreme cases. They'd be upper-
level courts, not the lower and/or common level courts for regular
criminal/civil actions, or lower-level 'imperial commercial courts'.
(Pardon me if I've missed things already mentioned in this thread,
or am otherwise off-base. :)
Rob D.
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Nullo metro compositum est. -- It doesn't rhyme.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3702
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3703
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Traveller-digest Monday, February 19 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3703
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: TGOOs
Re: Shaggy3d
Going Offlist and Princess Bride
Re: Going Offlist and Princess Bride
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
OT: Ultraviolet
RE: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
COACC errata
Source Code request?
Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Re: OT 'En Garde'
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.
Re: TGOOs
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)
Some interesting weaponry
RE: Ship habitability
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:25:24 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
<snip cleaning discussion>
I don't think that robots
> would fit the
> bill either.
>
>
> Larsen
>
Certainly not! Two very good reasons:
1) Maintaining clean quarters is a good discipline exercise
2) You'd need storage space to keep the robot in.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:27:15 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
>
> Hmm. The British only press-ganged into the Navy, their Army
> was volunteer. Now
> I wonder why that could be?
>
Two words:
Weevil biscuits.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:32:52
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
A good web site for the ranks and insignia of the US Armed Forces is:
http://mav.net/wguynes/military/
I'll agree totally with the comment below on E-9's being "terrifying forces
of nature". In the USAF, the most senior enlisted rank is Chief Master
Sergeant. In one of my active duty assignments, I was assigned to a remote
R&D satellite tracking site as a new Captain. The senior civilian (civil
service) there was a retired Chief Master Sergeant, one of the first created
in the USAF, who stood about 6'8" tall. He had been in charge of building
the site while on active duty and knew the science and engineering inside
out. He had a reputation of being a "terrifying force of nature" and most
"senior" personnel avoided challenging him. After a few discussions, we
established a great working relationship and he became one of my best
friends. I think it is like some of the sub stories where, especially in
remote or isolated settings (away from the headquarters), it is your
knowledge of (and interest in) the job and not your rank that determines the
pecking order.
John
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
>
>Sergeants Major are terrifying forces of nature. They really run the Army,
>although they let the officers pretend that they have something to do with
>it. Very tolerant ones will even call 2nd Lieutenants "sir" on occasion.
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:34:56 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: RE: TGOOs
On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Jones, Dean wrote:
> Dead? Absolutely not! I myself still refer to the 'bit bucket' and black
> holes...and I even realised I'd referred to 'Black Magic' the other day!
The Computer Science student club had a year and a half ago a paper basket
which had the words "/dev/null" on it...
Sadly, it was lost when they changed their clubhouse...
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:44:10 -0000
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Shaggy3d
Could it be possible for the DNA remaining in a pair of trainers/sneakers
(after Ditzie has, ahem, 'spoken to' the wearer) to be reincarnated?
I'm certainly not a TGOO (or any other sort of GOO), but I think I may
almost be up to the level of GSR (or maybe just LSR).
Someone pass the Shantaks, please...
Jeff.
(ps Shaggy3d, please do not take offence at the above.)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:58:39 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: Going Offlist and Princess Bride
Well folks, I'm off for four days of management training in the sunny Milton
Keynes. Because I don't want to blow up my exchange server, I'll be
unsubbing 'till Friday, so please feel free to talk about me beind my back
:)
Oh, and I started reading the Princess Bride on Friday. Sadly I made the
mistake of enjoying it so much that I read the whole first chapter to my
girlfriend...who promptly stole the book and finished reading it. So far I
am up to Westley and The Machine. Many thanks to the list for recommending
this brilliant book.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:03:15 EST
From: CPoppcap@aol.com
Subject: Re: Going Offlist and Princess Bride
It is strange ,I love both the book and the movie .
Never had that happen before
Chuck Popp
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:22:06 -0000
From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Rob Davenport wrote:
>If so, perhaps nobles delegate the judicial duties to professional
>judges (elected/appointed by the local peerage?), with final appeal to the
>noble themself in extreme cases. They'd be upper- level courts, not the
>lower and/or common level courts for regular criminal/civil actions, or
>lower-level 'imperial commercial courts'.
On the same line, there could be judges, but they would be more like
magistrates or masters in the U.S. system. The Duke would normally rubber
stamp the magistrate’s decisions, but the noble could occasionally make his
own ruling when demanded by justice or his stock portfolio.
That would also allow the nobility to avoid most of the tedious procedural
nonsense associated with litigation.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:22:35 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: OT: Ultraviolet
Please excuse this OT posting but I know some of you should be
interested in this ...
The Brit TV series "Ultraviolet" is now out on a double DVD set
(as well as video). For those who haven't had their machines
fixed yet (and why not?) it is region 2. One thing to note is
the disk labeled "Disk 1" is actually disk 2 and the disk labeled
"Disk 2" is actually disk 1. Sale price GBP 22.00 to 25.00
(depending where you buy it) ... which for 300 minutes is good
value for money.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:54:17 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Alan Bradley wrote:
> I tend to date the revision of the Imperial Constitution to the
> Civil War period, although there were usurping emperors like
> Cleon IV before then, who probably found it convenient to ignore
> most of it.
<snip>
> IMTU, I see Olav hault-Plankwell ripping up the old Constitution
> and replacing it with a military dictatorship. Some of his
> rivals/successors notionally restored it, but were unable to
> make it stick.
<snip>
> Arbellatra essentially created a new Constitution that was a
> compromise between the old Constitution and the desire of the
> frontier nobility to restore the coherence of the Imperium (by
> de-emphasising the Domains and so on).
Sounds good to me. Though I suspect the Constitution would have
further changed by 1100. My feeling is that the 3I Constitution
of 1100 would be like the modern day version of the UK
'constitution': a body of laws and traditions rather than a
single document. The 'static-ness' of an unwritten constitution
being provided by the desire of the establishment to preserve
the status quo.
This would explain Dulinor's belief that reform was possible,
followed by his exasperation at the slow *pace* of reform. Were
a written Constitution document in place then reform (of the
nature Dulinor championed) would not have been possible at all
without Strephon sitting down to rewrite that Constitution. But
an unwritten 'constitution' allows change but such change would
be resisted and slow.
Thus, Arbellatra's 'constitution' was the 3I's version of the
Magna Carta rather than a US style Constitution.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:20:45 EST
From: TRiepe5898@aol.com
Subject: COACC errata
Hi all
Are there errata for the MegaTrav product COACC? I recently got back into MT
craft design, and some things seem to be missing ( the mass of the autocannon
) or broken ( several pre-designed aircraft ).
Can anybody help?
Tobias Riepe
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:41:01 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Source Code request?
Dear Sophonts of the list,
Does anyone out there have, or know the location of, any good routines/
algorythms for drawing linked/adjacent hexagons like for a subsector map,
that they would be willing to share with me. I can't find the source for an
old project I did this in and would rather not re-invent it if nescessary.
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Minion of SheChemist and GothBunny
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
===========================
"They didn't want it good, they wanted it Wednesday." -Robert Heinlein
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:41 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
In-Reply-To: <F360bPur9gSRp9tgEaQ00015f5a@hotmail.com>
Greetings dear hearts, especially Mr Whipsnade.
Here's an excerpt from the scenario I am in the middle of, detailing the
duelling ethic on the planet Lehar: -
"On Lehar, matters of honour are often settled by duelling. Duels are
formal and stylised, but none the less deadly. Foils are used, with a long
dagger in the 'off' hand, and the combatants strip to light fencing shorts
to prevent the use of hidden armour. Duels may be fought to the first
blood or to the death. A judge, the Judge of Honour, is present to call
fouls such as grabbing or kicking one's opponent. Some younger Leharis
favour the use of a lightweight sabre rather than the foil, but this is
both frowned upon and illegal. The conventional form of duel is legal,
provided that the challenge is made and accepted before an accredited
Judge of Honour - this is a recognised profession on Lehar, paid by fees
levied on the duellists and by charging admission to watch the duel.
Indeed, duelling is a spectator sport and duels involving skilled or
famous individuals are often broadcast. Several magazines are available on
the 'sport'… although it is not the done thing to issue a challenge except
on a genuine point of honour."
I'll have a root around for the FLASHING BLADES stuff... think it's under
my desk somewhere :-)
The doctorate is in plant physiology, an investigation of the ways in
which plants detect and respond to changes in gravitation. On and off I am
working on a 2nd one, in history (the development of uniforms).
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 14:12:33 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: OT 'En Garde'
On 19 Feb 2001, at 22:53, Alan Bradley wrote:
> Oh, and En Garde is _not_ OT! Rather, it is a sourcebook for the
> construction of Noble and other high-level political scenarios...
>
> Eg: Your character is assigned to Prince Lucan's security detachment...
I surfed a little a lunch and found:
http://hijenks.com/engarde/picayune.htm#greasypole
The Orleans Picayune - apparently the monthly PBEM publication of
events in that particular game - but several section were very
intriguing and I could help but think of the Traveller equivalents.
The Civil Appointments section, The Provinces, The Regiments, Force
Deployment - all made me want equivalents for MTU...
Rob D.
- --
Rob
'Artificial Intelligence usually beats real stupidity.'
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:38:10 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Leonard Erickson wrote:
> I figure they'd just sweep it along somewhat faster than you can run,
> given the terrain. What's the world record for the 100 meter? A bit
> under 10 seconds?
>
> That'd be around around 2.5 K.
>
> And, of course, there's something to be said for sweeping it along
> *slowly* as a way to "herd" the enemy.
What is that they say on the c-130 gunships "Don't run away, you'll only
die tired"
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:03:24 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.
Robert O'Connor wrote:
> Larson Whipsnade wrote :-
>
>> I don't know what it is you actually do for a career, but I do hope
>> that it utilizes your ability to make detailed technical information
>> more widely understood.
>
> Aw, shucks.
> I'm just a simple medical doctor with a biochem/physiology degree.
> My current occupation is 'slave' (oops, specialist in training).
Robert...the correct form is 'I'm just a country doctor, Jim!' no matter what the name of the other person is ;-)
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:26:24 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: TGOOs
Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Jones, Dean wrote:
>
>> Dead? Absolutely not! I myself still refer to the 'bit bucket' and black
>> holes...and I even realised I'd referred to 'Black Magic' the other day!
>
>
> The Computer Science student club had a year and a half ago a paper basket
> which had the words "/dev/null" on it...
>
> Sadly, it was lost when they changed their clubhouse...
Ha! We have a large paper recycling bin in our ffice labelled /tmp.
because it doesn't get emptied all that often, it's often possible to
retrieve things from /tmp ;-)
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:50:46 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
"Put the two together, and I'm an Electronics Technician First Class
(ET1)."
Mr. Gilly's post, plus that of Mr. Harris, has started me thinking
about ratings (job classifications) within the IN. Although HG2 does
provide some clues, what sort of job classifications do you think would
exist in the Imperial Navy?
Missileman, naturally. Engineering might split up a bit; ie. drives,
mechanics, electrical, electronic, etc. Would screens be split up too, a
Dampersman 2nd class and a Chief Globe Operator? Would beam weapons be
divvied up between lasers, fusion, and plasma guns? How about spinal
mounts? The ancillary rates, each as important as the ones mentioned above,
could be interesting. Would vacc suit maintenance rate one? Comm gear
would of course, along with computer work.
Mr. Harris mentioned he's a JO, journalists' mate, I particular type of
sailor I never ran into and have no idea what the actually job would entail.
The USN has many "odd", "quirky", or just plain old fashioned job
classifications. Some are useful, some are not. (There was an award
winning series of articles in the WSJ last year detailing the waste
associated with the US military's institutional inertia.)
Names change meaning too. I was a machinist mate, but never ran a
lathe. My early 1900's predecessors might have, but by 1980 we'd morphed
into something different. How much of that would occur in the IN over 1000
years?
In my lifetime, boiler techs have all but disappeared from the USN.
They used to be one of the biggest groups, but all new combatants are either
gas turbines or nucs. No fossil steam plants are built anymore. I saw IC
men (internal communications) and DC men (damage control) disappear during
the 6 years I was in. Not all tech changes force jobs to disappear though.
The WSJ article used lithographers as an example. They were useless in my
day, the 80's, and yet are still "working" aboard carriers as late as 2000.
"...and was advanced to E4 the day I completed RM A school, four and a
half months later. Like Mr Whipsnade, I made E5 and E6 in the usual manner.
(Don't expect to ever see E7, but I have three years left....)"
As an explanation to the rest of the list, advancement in the Navy
depends on a few things. You're tested of course, but simply having a
pulse is enough to pass. I aced mine, plus the associated course work, but
that wouldn't have advanced me alone one bit. Another requirement is a
certain amount of time at each rank before being "allowed" to try for your
next rate, along with how long you've been at your current rank; seniority.
The third, and most important, is how many people are ahead of you. This
one is the tail that wags the dog.
In a popular job is said to be "filled". The number of people allowed
to enter it is strictly limited and promotion follows a "domino" pattern.
It's like a full night club you want to get into; 2 people got to leave
before 2 can get in.
Sub duty is very popular; more pay, barracks ashore, the "cachet" of
the silent service, etc. So my friends who did the same job as I did on a
sub advanced no where as fast as I did. The USN hemorrhaged surface nucs.
They simply could not keep them in the service. There was no one ahead of
me when it came time for promotion; I could have tubed the tests and still
gotten my bump. Conversely, there are so many many people in the subs, my
nuc counterpart, even he he aced his test, had to wait for someone to retire
and the ripple to reach him.
That's why I could have made E-7 in 6 years, 9 months and Mr. Gilly is
hoping to do the same in 20 years. It ahs nothing to do with smarts,
skills, quality of work; just how many people are "ahead" of him.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:56:14 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
From: "Sam D" <samdx@hotmail.com>
"A friend of mine was drafted in 1969. When he showed up, a Marine
was there and offered the recruits three more months of freedom if they
joined the Corp."
An excellent example of how a serive might not "participate" in the
draft, yet beenfit greatly from it.
All 3 services (the Air Force was still under Army control) accepted
draftees towards the end of WW2. The Navy accepted draftees during WW1.
I read a book detailing the "Spanish Flu" recently. The USN was so
hard hit, it had warships anchored at foreign ports unable to steam home
because not enough of the crew was either hale or alive to do the job.
The OBTravs there just invent themselves.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:05:29 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
"Here's an excerpt from the scenario I am in the middle of, detailing
the duelling ethic on the planet Lehar: -"
Doc Mexal,
Thank you for the glimpse into society on Lehar. It convinced me that
I really must do some more reading on dueling in order to do the customs
surrounding it justice.
"The doctorate is in plant physiology, an investigation of the ways in
which plants detect and respond to changes in gravitation."
Ah, I see. Hence my seed catalog references to the "Forward Mass
Detecting Fern" and the "Densitometer Daisy". Thank you.
As always, madame, I remain you most humble and obedient servant,
Larsen
(bows deeply, with one foot braced in front of the other, elaborate
hand waves and a hanky tucked up his sleeve)
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:18:44 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 19 Feb 2001, at 22:44, Alan Bradley wrote:
> Of course, it is quite conceivable that the reason why Australia is
> poaching Kiwi personnel is because there is a chronic shortfall of recruits and
> a low retention rate in the Australian military too...
Of course, though one wonders where they're going...
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:18:44 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 19 Feb 2001, at 8:18, James Gilly / Alasdair MacIai wrote:
> (Where two titles are given, the first is Army and the second is USMC.)
>
> E1 - Private1/Private
> E2 - Private 2/Private First Class
> E3 - Private First Class/Lance Corporal
> E4 - Corporal
> E5 - Sergeant
> E6 - Staff Sergeant
> E7 - Sergeant First Class/Gunnery Sergeant
> E8 - Master Sergeant
> E9 - Sergeant Major
In the NZ Army we had:
Other Ranks (baggies):
Recruit in Training (those who hadn't yet completed their basic and specialist
training)
Private (most Corps)/Gunner (Artillery)/Trooper (Armour)
Junior NCOs:
Lance Corporal (Lance Bombadier in Artillery)
Corporal (Bombadier in Artillery)
Seniour NCOs:
Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
WO1 (or WO2, I forget), once Sergeant Major, which is still what they're
generally called, addressed as "Sarn't Major".
WO2 (or one, whichever a Sergeant Major isn't), dress as officers and are
addressed as "Sir" like an officer.
> No one has discussed the "O" ranks (we don't seem to have any ex-officers
> around here), but they're pretty much the same throughout the
> English-speaking world, as far as I can tell.
>
> (The first title given is Navy, and the second is Army/USMC.)
>
> O1 - Ensign/2nd Lieutenant
> O2 - Lieutenant (junior grade)/1st Lieutenant
> O3 - Lieutenant/Captain
> O4 - Lieutenant Commander/Major
> O5 - Commander/Lieutenant Colonel
> O6 - Captain/Colonel
> O7 - Rear Admiral (lower half)/Brigadier General
> O8 - Rear Admiral (upper half)/Major General
> O9 - Vice Admiral/Lieutenant General
> O10 - Admiral/General
>
> (A Navy O7 used to be a Commodore, but that was changed sometime in the mid
> '80s. Long story.)
At one point I think the NZ Navy had Midshipmen (it might still do so), and it
may even have had both middies and ensigns at one point, but I'm not suire on
this.
> There are also Warrant Officer ranks, senior to all enlisted but
> (theoretically) junior to all officer ranks. The Navy has four of these,
> the Army has five.
We only have the two, and they're not really more than just an extension of the
SNCO progression. A Company Sergeant Major (CSM) would be a Sergeant Major, and
you'd expect an RSM ("Regimental Sergeant Major", even though he's the top NCO
of a battalion) to be a WO2, if I've got them the right way 'round - it never
really mattered as you only saw him on formal parades and warrant officers were
usually refered to by their appointment, so he'd just be "the RSM", the
Training Warrant Officer would be "the TWO", pronounced "tw-o" as in "twit" and
"oh".
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:28:33 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 19 Feb 2001, at 21:50, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> In my lifetime, boiler techs have all but disappeared from the USN.
> They used to be one of the biggest groups, but all new combatants are either gas
> turbines or nucs. No fossil steam plants are built anymore. I saw IC men
> (internal communications) and DC men (damage control) disappear during the 6
> years I was in. Not all tech changes force jobs to disappear though. The WSJ
> article used lithographers as an example. They were useless in my day, the
> 80's, and yet are still "working" aboard carriers as late as 2000.
What were they replaced with?
> Sub duty is very popular; more pay, barracks ashore, the "cachet" of
> the silent service, etc. So my friends who did the same job as I did on a sub
> advanced no where as fast as I did. The USN hemorrhaged surface nucs. They
> simply could not keep them in the service. There was no one ahead of me when it
> came time for promotion; I could have tubed the tests and still gotten my bump.
> Conversely, there are so many many people in the subs, my nuc counterpart, even
> he he aced his test, had to wait for someone to retire and the ripple to reach
> him.
Why is being a nuc on a sib considered a different job than on a cruiser? From
what you're saying personnel aren't tranferrred from one to the other, and yet
it sounds like they're the same job. This seems a bit silly.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:29:07 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)
On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:49:53 -0500 (EST), shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) wrote:
>In mail you write:
>> BTW, does anyone know the origins of the word "anagathic"? I'm just
>> curious. Did it come from a sci-fi novel, or what?
>I think it came from the first (in terms of internal chronology, not
>publishing order) of James Blish's "Cities in Flight" books. I can;t
>recall the title though... :-(
You're correct, and the four books in _Cities_In_Flight_ were, in internal
chronological order, _They_Shall_Have_Stars_, _A_Life_For_The_Stars_,
_Earthman_Come_Home_, and _The_Triumph_Of_Time_.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:57 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Some interesting weaponry
In-Reply-To: <F60ngpjB6EgmgEaIj3800016a1b@hotmail.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
May I recommend you gun-bunnies head for
http://birdman.org/products/Nuke50.htm forthwith :-)
Hugs and kisses,
TechSgt Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:01:14 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"What were they replaced with?"
Mr. Boleyn,
The IC guys were all converted into EMs, electricians. Apparently,
whatever had differences in their work and equipment that had caused the
creation of two "rates" had disappeared. DC types all joined up with HTs;
meaning hull techs in navy-ese, welders to the rest of us.
BTs simply faded away. In their place, two ro three tpes of GT; gas
turbine, rates have grown up.
"Why is being a nuc on a sub considered a different job than on a
cruiser? From what you're saying personnel aren't tranferrred from one to
the other, and yet it sounds like they're the same job. This seems a bit
silly."
Sub crews have always been volunteers, even during the brief periods
the NAvy used draftees. There are a few medical conditions that would bar
you from sub duty, but still allow you to serve aboard a ship. One onf the
chiefs I worked for had been a sub type (bubblehead) for years until a
medical problem forced him out.
Sub crews, ecept for nucs, also recieve extra training, so you tend to
get that at the beginning of you career rather than the end. While most
rates can bounce back and forth between either ship or sub (I believe) nucs
are locked in. And for no reason I ever could discern.
I passed all the medical and dental tests, volunteered for the duty,
even trained at the Nautilus reactor prototype but got a cruiser instead.
"Needs of the Navy" they said. "I'm out in six" I said.
It most likely had something to do with the inability to keep surface
nuc engineering manned at anything near what was needed. Once they had you
there, you weren't going antwhere else. Towards the end of my tour, we had
a few bubbleheads doing surface tours with us as an attmept to ease the
manning crunch. It was "supposed" to help their chances for advancement.
Something like 95% of each nuc class is a sub vol, but the Navy still
has to man carriers and cruisers, so that means someone's gonna get f*****.
It's simple math. Who ever get's the short end, doesn't stay in, so you
need more of them, more sub vols get f******, more get out, you need more,
etc. etc, etc. Textbook vicious circle.
OBTrav - Is there a job or ship type in the IN that's viewed as
particularily odious? Or one that is viewed with great favor? Could this
explain a PC's, with a 12 year navy career, decision to "retire"?
"They cut me orders to a monitor, so I got out. A monitor?!!? I'm a
cruiser man!"
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3703
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Traveller-digest Monday, February 19 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3704
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Source Code request?
Princess Bride
RE: Artillery falls from the sky...
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Princess Bride
Re: En Garde
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
RE: Draught (Draft?)
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Ship habitability
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:20:13 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 19 Feb 2001, at 23:01, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Mr. Boleyn,
> The IC guys were all converted into EMs, electricians. Apparently,
> whatever had differences in their work and equipment that had caused the
> creation of two "rates" had disappeared.
Fiar enough.
> DC types all joined up with HTs;
> meaning hull techs in navy-ese, welders to the rest of us.
Ah. I assumed that DC would be specialists at jury-rigging pumps and such, or
fire-fighting or some-such, and so I couldn't think of anything else they might
have become.
> BTs simply faded away. In their place, two ro three tpes of GT; gas
> turbine, rates have grown up.
I guessed that, it was the other two I couldn't see.
> Sub crews, ecept for nucs, also recieve extra training, so you tend to get
> that at the beginning of you career rather than the end. While most rates can
> bounce back and forth between either ship or sub (I believe) nucs are locked in.
> And for no reason I ever could discern.
So the one area that requires no extra training is the one that gets locked in?
Weird.
> I passed all the medical and dental tests, volunteered for the duty,
> even trained at the Nautilus reactor prototype but got a cruiser instead.
> "Needs of the Navy" they said. "I'm out in six" I said.
> It most likely had something to do with the inability to keep surface nuc
> engineering manned at anything near what was needed. Once they had you there,
> you weren't going antwhere else. Towards the end of my tour, we had a few
> bubbleheads doing surface tours with us as an attmept to ease the manning
> crunch. It was "supposed" to help their chances for advancement.
> Something like 95% of each nuc class is a sub vol, but the Navy still has
> to man carriers and cruisers, so that means someone's gonna get f*****. It's
> simple math. Who ever get's the short end, doesn't stay in, so you need more of
> them, more sub vols get f******, more get out, you need more, etc. etc, etc.
> Textbook vicious circle.
Whereas if they allowed rotation between them it would simply be part of the
job to do a year or two on a surface ship, and it might also make a bit more
room for promotion of qualified personnel, and cut down on the over-promotion
of poor quality personnel in the surface vessels.
We had a similar problem (and AFAIK it's still there) in the Army. As military
pay is low many people join the Army to get quals that will be of use in
civilian life, and once they've got them they leave. This means that everyone
tries to join the Electrical & Mechanical Engineers Corps (REME) or the
Transport & Catering Corps as they're the ones that give the most useful quals.
This has several problems - these Corps get to choose first and get the best
men, and the tooth arms (which don't provide much in the way of marketable
skills unless you're a SNCO or officer) get the worst. The other problem is
that in order to keep these qualified men in there are pay bonuses for being
qualified and civvie quals count for more than being a good infantryman. To
make matter worse cooks and the like get extra pay if they have to work in
difficult conditions, but grunts don't because that's their normal job.
Needless to say morale and retention in the tooth arms (Infantry especially) is
poor.
OBTrav - is this why in CT/MT the Army had such a poor re-enlistment roll?
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:23:38 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Source Code request?
On Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 10:41:01AM -0800, Thing wrote:
> Dear Sophonts of the list,
>
> Does anyone out there have, or know the location of, any good routines/
> algorythms for drawing linked/adjacent hexagons like for a subsector map,
> that they would be willing to share with me.
What language are you after? I've got one in Postscript. I can also
dig out some code in C for X11. I might be able to write you some in
a spare 15 minutes, depending on what form of output you need e.g. X11
drawing calls? Floating-point line segment endpoint coordinates?
Drawing into a pixel array? Does it need to do its own clipping?
Can't help you with Windows- or Mac- specific stuff though.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:41:01 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Princess Bride
I have many happy memories of climbing about on wallbars and gym equipment
at the fencing club while quoting the dialogue from "that" duel scene... and
fencing, of course.
Inigo: "Who ARE you?"
Westley: "No-one of consequence."
Inigo: "I MUST know!"
Westley: "Get used to disappointment!"
Inigo:(shrug) "Okay."
Now THAT's dialogue!
Martin J Dougherty
Author: Behind the Throne, The Eye of Glory
www.highbridgepress.com
www.fiction-fantasy.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:12:10 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Artillery falls from the sky...
>On 18 Feb 2001, at 18:31, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>>
>> > On 17 Feb 2001, at 16:20, Dave McKenna wrote:
>> >
>> >> How about particle accelerators over a vacuum/trace world? :-)
>> >
>> > Good, but meson guns have an advantage when rooting out troops who have
>> > serious overhead protection.
>>
>> On the other hand, even if they are well dug in, melting the rock to a
>> depth of 10 meters takes them out of action for a long time anyway.
>> Unless *they* have meson guns, you've just eliminated them from *that*
>> battle.
>
>But that thakes a fiar bit of power from a PAW. However if you've no real
use
>for the surrounding countryside a nuke would do nicely. It's amazing how
>liberating fighting on a planet that's not yours is. :)
>
Hence the origin of the Merc term "Bad War," i.e. any war that does not
follow the basic Imperial rules of war. (Note the lower case, Imperial rules
of war are a policy, not a part of the legal code.)
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:16:06 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Ah. I assumed that DC would be specialists at jury-rigging pumps and
such, or fire-fighting or some-such, and so I couldn't think of anything
else they might have become."
Mr. Boleyn,
Everyone, and I mean everyone, one board a USN ship is considered part
of the damage control team. It's one of the training exercises the entire
in crew is involved in. Look the the damage taken by the Cole, the Stark,
and the Roberts, plus their WW2 bretheren, without sinking. It's something
the "Haze Grey Canoe Club" has always been proud of. Even the poorly
motivated, "I'm here so I couldn't be drafted", squids of the Vietnam era
saved the Forrestal off Yankee Station in '69 from a horrific fire.
After the Falklands, procedures and equipment were upgraded even more.
The mucky-mucks took a very hard look at all the troubles the Brits had had.
Perhaps they thought DC specialists would take away from the "total
crew" emphasis.
"So the one area that requires no extra training is the one that gets
locked in? Weird."
Yup, go figure.
"Whereas if they allowed rotation between them it would simply be part
of the job to do a year or two on a surface ship, and it might also make a
bit more room for promotion of qualified personnel, and cut down on the
over-promotion of poor quality personnel in the surface vessels."
Yup again. But, as a surface sailor, I'd prefer "low morale" over "low
quality", although we had some.
"We had a similar problem (and AFAIK it's still there) in the Army. As
military pay is low many people join the Army to get quals that will be of
use in civilian life, and once they've got them they leave."
The rule of thumb here is; the more they train you in a useful job, the
more time you have to sign up for. So it was six years for nuc propulsion,
similar time for electronics, air traffic control, and so on.
Wasn't the idea of using military training in high tech fields to
disseminate talent, and the draft to get people into the service in the
first place, one of Dulinor's "reforms"?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:15:14 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Artillery falls from the sky...
>Robert O'Connor wrote:
>> Unconscious within 16 seconds (core to 41 C), fitting shortly thereafter.
>
>I suspect that the brain might be close to the first affected organ.
>After all, the head is likely to be the closest part of the body to an
>(overhead) orbital maser. Temperature rise might be even faster there
>than elsewhere -- and my (non-medical) guess would be that it is also
>where temperature rises have the greatest effect.
>
>
>> Skin will die above 48 C. Proteins irreversibly denature above 55 C.
>
>Skin would probably take a lot of the energy. I don't know what the
>attenuation depth in flesh for atmosphere-penetrating microwaves is.
>Strangely, that data is lacking from my references. I understand that
>domestic microwaves are of a frequency that would be absorbed by the
>atmosphere over these sorts of distances and are particularly well
>absorbed by liquid water, so I can't really extrapolate from what's
>known of them to orbital maser weapons.
>
Wouldn't it be possible to shield against this kind of weapon, using either
an overhead net (at the proper 1/4 wavelength weave or even in a helmet) to
prevent the brain being cooked?
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:22:12 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Princess Bride
>From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
"I have many happy memories of climbing about on wallbars and gym
equipmentat the fencing club while quoting the dialogue from "that" duel
scene... and fencing, of course."
Inigo: "Who ARE you?"
Westley: "No-one of consequence."
Inigo: "I MUST know!"
Westley: "Get used to disappointment!"
Inigo:(shrug) "Okay."
Now THAT's dialogue!
And;
Miracle Max: "Now, go away or I'll call the Brute Squad."
Fezick: "I'm on the Brute Squad."
Miracle Max: "You ARE the Brute Squad."
R.I.P. Andre the Giant. We hardly knew ye'
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:22:44 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: En Garde
> Whatever, well worth a go. A number of my friends participate in a PBEM
> game, which has been extended by a variant covering the lives of their
> lady Loves (based on the movie 'Dangerous Liasons').
Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to allow for
female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever Amber_ and
_Desiree_. Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing the king even moreso,
but both had their rewards.
There was even allowance for enlisting in the army disguised as a man,
although this involved certain risks also.
LKW
Also had rules for the Navy -- heavily influenced by Hornblower et al.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:27:08 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Steve Daniels writes:
>And fundamentally, this is a problem of the court system. In the 3I,
>the courts exist only at the pleasure of the nobility. There are no
>rules of stare decisis, i.e., no binding precedent. Time for appeals
>can be limited or expanded by the noble in charge.
I should like to know what source material you base these claims on.
>There is no precedence. Whatever the noble says. Including seizures
>of your current land, regardless of whatever title you may claim.
Land is likely to be one of the things an Imperial noble would have a really
tough time usurping. Unless it belongs to the Imperium already, all land belongs
to someone who is a citizen of a world government. As such, whatever treaty (or
whatever such a document is called) made when the world joined the Imperium
would spell out the rights surrendered by the world to the Imperium. If this
included any land, said land would be defined to the inch.
>Archduke Norris to Titled Owner of nice hunting land:
>"Nice place you have here. Excuse me. Nice place *I* have here.
>You have 30 seconds to leave forever."
Regardless of the legalities or lack thereoff, That's not at all the way I
picture Norris.
>In canon, there is very little evidence of any significant legal framework,
>and particularly little that might resemble modern democratic systems.
The Duchy of Regina has a senate. It's powers are not defined and it may simply
be advisory, but then again, it may not. Certainly someone in the subsector
bureaucracy found it worth while to kidnap a senator and hide him away.
Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
'There was a man,' remarked Captain Eliot, 'who was sentenced
to death for stealing a horse from a common. He said to the judge,
that he thought it hard to be hanged for stealing a horse from a
common and the judge answered, "You are not to be hanged for
stealing a horse from a common, but that others may not steal
horses from commons." '
'And do you find,' asked Stephen, 'that in fact horses are not
daily stolen from commons? You do not!'
--- "The Mauritius Command" by Patrick O'Brian
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:25:20 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Draught (Draft?)
>In a message dated 18-Feb-01 9:27:50 PM Central Standard Time,
>owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
>
>> Was that also the case with the Marines? Or were their voluteers simply
mad?
>
>I don't have a reference to hand, but I believe USMC drafted during WWII,
and
>for a time during the Vietnam era. IIRC the USN managed to get by on
>enlistment during the first few months of WWII, but began taking draftees
as
>well when the Army tightened things up.
>
>LKW
As I recall during the Vietnam era the way it worked is the USMC processor
would go up to the line of draftees and pick his allowed number of guys from
the line, often just the first xx guys or the last xx guys. The legend goes
that since the draftees were in alphabetical order while in line, if you saw
a Marine named Larsen the chances were that he was a volunteer.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:32:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
Actually, it's just Journalist, not Journalist mate. We're the public
affairs guys. On ships we run the TV and radio stations and put out
the ship's newspaper and cruise book. The only ships you can find us
on any more are carriers and some of the larger amphibs.
ICmen are still around; we have five in my reserve unit. DCmen are
also still around as we have several at the reserve center. RMs have
been rolled into Information Technicians (ITs).
For some of the background rates that run the Navy (and might have
counterparts in the IN), consider the yeoman (secretary), personnelman,
disbursing clerk, postal clerk, religious program specialist, dental
technician and hospital corpsman.
- --- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
> From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
> "Put the two together, and I'm an Electronics Technician First
> Class
> (ET1)."
>
> Mr. Gilly's post, plus that of Mr. Harris, has started me
> thinking
> about ratings (job classifications) within the IN. Although HG2 does
>
> provide some clues, what sort of job classifications do you think
> would
> exist in the Imperial Navy?
> Missileman, naturally. Engineering might split up a bit; ie.
> drives,
> mechanics, electrical, electronic, etc. Would screens be split up
> too, a
> Dampersman 2nd class and a Chief Globe Operator? Would beam weapons
> be
> divvied up between lasers, fusion, and plasma guns? How about spinal
>
> mounts? The ancillary rates, each as important as the ones mentioned
> above,
> could be interesting. Would vacc suit maintenance rate one? Comm
> gear
> would of course, along with computer work.
> Mr. Harris mentioned he's a JO, journalists' mate, I particular
> type of
> sailor I never ran into and have no idea what the actually job would
> entail.
> The USN has many "odd", "quirky", or just plain old fashioned job
> classifications. Some are useful, some are not. (There was an award
>
> winning series of articles in the WSJ last year detailing the waste
> associated with the US military's institutional inertia.)
> Names change meaning too. I was a machinist mate, but never ran
> a
> lathe. My early 1900's predecessors might have, but by 1980 we'd
> morphed
> into something different. How much of that would occur in the IN
> over 1000
> years?
> In my lifetime, boiler techs have all but disappeared from the
> USN.
> They used to be one of the biggest groups, but all new combatants are
> either
> gas turbines or nucs. No fossil steam plants are built anymore. I
> saw IC
> men (internal communications) and DC men (damage control) disappear
> during
> the 6 years I was in. Not all tech changes force jobs to disappear
> though.
> The WSJ article used lithographers as an example. They were useless
> in my
> day, the 80's, and yet are still "working" aboard carriers as late as
> 2000.
>
> "...and was advanced to E4 the day I completed RM A school, four
> and a
> half months later. Like Mr Whipsnade, I made E5 and E6 in the usual
> manner.
> (Don't expect to ever see E7, but I have three years left....)"
>
> As an explanation to the rest of the list, advancement in the
> Navy
> depends on a few things. You're tested of course, but simply having
> a
> pulse is enough to pass. I aced mine, plus the associated course
> work, but
> that wouldn't have advanced me alone one bit. Another requirement is
> a
> certain amount of time at each rank before being "allowed" to try for
> your
> next rate, along with how long you've been at your current rank;
> seniority.
> The third, and most important, is how many people are ahead of you.
> This
> one is the tail that wags the dog.
> In a popular job is said to be "filled". The number of people
> allowed
> to enter it is strictly limited and promotion follows a "domino"
> pattern.
> It's like a full night club you want to get into; 2 people got to
> leave
> before 2 can get in.
> Sub duty is very popular; more pay, barracks ashore, the
> "cachet" of
> the silent service, etc. So my friends who did the same job as I did
> on a
> sub advanced no where as fast as I did. The USN hemorrhaged surface
> nucs.
> They simply could not keep them in the service. There was no one
> ahead of
> me when it came time for promotion; I could have tubed the tests and
> still
> gotten my bump. Conversely, there are so many many people in the
> subs, my
> nuc counterpart, even he he aced his test, had to wait for someone to
> retire
> and the ripple to reach him.
> That's why I could have made E-7 in 6 years, 9 months and Mr.
> Gilly is
> hoping to do the same in 20 years. It ahs nothing to do with smarts,
>
> skills, quality of work; just how many people are "ahead" of him.
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:38:37 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 20 Feb 2001, at 0:16, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Mr. Boleyn,
> Everyone, and I mean everyone, one board a USN ship is considered part of
> the damage control team. It's one of the training exercises the entire in crew
> is involved in. Look the the damage taken by the Cole, the Stark, and the
> Roberts, plus their WW2 bretheren, without sinking.
IIRC the report on the Stark incident concluded that if her damage control had
any worse than it was she would've sunk, and she had the best in the fleet at
the time.
> After the Falklands, procedures and equipment were upgraded even more. The
> mucky-mucks took a very hard look at all the troubles the Brits had had.
> Perhaps they thought DC specialists would take away from the "total
> crew" emphasis.
Lesson 1 - don't build ships with aluminium hulls. Lesson 2 - encourage your
enemies to use missiles with warheads that work. HMS Sheffield caught fire
because the unexploded missiles rocket motor ignited the aluminium, whereas the
warhead wouldn't have generated enough heat to do this.
> "We had a similar problem (and AFAIK it's still there) in the Army. As
> military pay is low many people join the Army to get quals that will be of use
> in civilian life, and once they've got them they leave."
>
> The rule of thumb here is; the more they train you in a useful job, the
> more time you have to sign up for. So it was six years for nuc propulsion,
> similar time for electronics, air traffic control, and so on.
No 'time in' requirement in the Army here, just a period (5 years?) afterwards
during which they can call you up when they feel the need.
> Wasn't the idea of using military training in high tech fields to
> disseminate talent, and the draft to get people into the service in the
> first place, one of Dulinor's "reforms"?
I don't recall. Quite possibly, though.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:39:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
- --- Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
<<Why is being a nuc on a sib considered a different job than on a
cruiser? From what you're saying personnel aren't tranferrred from one
to the other, and yet it sounds like they're the same job. This seems a
bit silly.>>
The surface and sub communities are completely different kettles of
fish. One has to volunteer for sub duty and then go to lots of schools
and special training.
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:41:59 -0500
From: Justin Kim <justinki@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
At 11:01 PM +0000 2/19/01, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>OBTrav - Is there a job or ship type in the IN that's viewed as
>particularily odious? Or one that is viewed with great favor?
>Could this explain a PC's, with a 12 year navy career, decision to
>"retire"?
>"They cut me orders to a monitor, so I got out. A monitor?!!? I'm
>a cruiser man!"
Elizabeth Moon wrote a series of books set in a
Traveller-like universe (The Serrano Legasy books starting with
"Hunting Party"). The characters are all career navy and are worth a
read for anyone interested in the IN. Moon spent some time in the
Marines, and I'm told the books have a ring of authenticity WRT life
in the military. I now mentally pattern the IN after Moon's books.
In Moon's Regular Space Service, there are legions of ratings
that take care of the ship's environment. The environmental control
systems consist largely of tanks of noxious, highly dangerous
bacterial soups that break down waste produced by the crew. That
always seemed to me to be duty of a rather odious nature.
In the IN, I'd imagine groundside duty on some backwater
would be the least desirable. As for shipboard duty, I'd guess a
fleet resupply ship or maybe a barge hauler, assuming the IN doesn't
contract that kind of work out.
Justin
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:40:00 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
>On 19 Feb 2001, at 9:03, Michael Daumen wrote:
><SNIP>
>> I can't imagine the average noble in charge of his world's corporate
court
>> woud have the resources or willingness to irk both parties of the
potential
>> suit. If a corp was powerful enough they would have other nobles willing
to
>> intercede for them. And afterwards they'd remember which noble stuck it
to
>> them and be able to punish them accordingly if they wanted to. Or, on
>> planets where the noble is known for delaying tactics, the parties could
>> work out their own decision, or choose an alternate court, and then Sir
>> Whoozit is out the court fees. A noble who delays risks the disapproval
of
>> the Emperor's stated trade policy, in most cases.
>
>I'm nowhere near a lawyer (either physically, or professionally), but I
>was pondering - if a nobles regularly had to adjudicate between
>possibly conflicting self-interests (the state vs. his shares in
>megacorp.X), wouldn't that be seen (by his peers and higher-ranking
>nobles, if not the population at large) as a Bad Thing ripe for
>corruption? If so, perhaps nobles delegate the judicial duties to
>professional judges (elected/appointed by the local peerage?), with
>final appeal to the noble themself in extreme cases. They'd be upper-
>level courts, not the lower and/or common level courts for regular
>criminal/civil actions, or lower-level 'imperial commercial courts'.
>
<Flame On>
Gee would that be like legislators making laws regulating industries that
give them money through Political Action Committees (PAC's). yeah I think
the population at large would do something about that right away.
<Flame Off>
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:49:34 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Ship habitability
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> "The general improvement in crew quality this led to was one of the
>reasons it was able to outfight the RN on a unit by unit basis."
>
> "When? If you're refering to the war of 1812 I suggest you look at
>_all_ the actions that took place in that war."
>
> Mea culpa. You are correct of course. I should have inserted the word
>"mostly" in the sentence above between "to" and "outfight".
The Americans turned out to be a match for the British, which was a salutary
shock for the RN. However, many of the American single-ship victories were
facilitated by having twice the broadside weight in metal and scantlings twice
as thick.
> Churchill in his "History of the English Speaking Peoples" does allow
>that the infant USN was mainly overwhelmed rather than out fought. I can't
>think of a more vocal booster of the RN then WSC; however his mother was
>American. 8^)
I can recommend "The Age of Fighting Sail" by C.S.Forester (of Hornblower fame).
In it he gives a very thorough description of the events leading up to the war
and of all naval action taken during it.
Rupert Boleyn
>IIRC earlier on the US ships overwhelmed the RN ships by being bigger and
>newer, and later when the British built two-deck frigates to match (and brought
>their naval spending back up) the US ships had all kinds of trouble.
There were no two-deck frigates. There couldn't be, since part of the definition
of being a frigate was not having two decks. The US. Congress had refused to
approve the building of ships-of-the-line but had allowed 10 frigates without
specifying a budget. The master shipwright accordingly made them the biggest and
best frigates he possibly could, with 44 guns against the British 32- and 38-gun
frigates (and with bigger guns to boot) and ship sides the thickness of
ships-of-the-line. Consequently the American frigates trew a heavier broadside
AND were able to take greater punishment than the British.
Hans
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3704
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3705
Date: | 2/19/01 7:44:54 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Monday, February 19 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3705
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Draught (Draft?)
Re: Source Code request?
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
RE: TGOOs
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Source Code request?
Megatraveller & CT
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Source Code request?
Re: Source Code request?
Re: Source Code request?
Re: Source Code request?
Planet map template (again)
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Civility and Politeness
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:06:58 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Draught (Draft?)
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
"...if you saw a Marine named Larsen the chances were that he was a
volunteer."
Mr. Carlino,
Touche! The list might be dedicated to Traveller, but we also play the
verbal version of En Garde.
My father, Larsen Senior, served in the Marines. He let know in no
uncertain terms that he ever saw a marine named Larsen he would volunteer to
do a tap dance on said marine's buttocks. Larsen Junior opted to become a
squid.
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:25:58 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Source Code request?
Hello Tim,
You couldn't by chance do the same for Visual Basic could you - regards
to drawing hexgrids on a map?
Hal
PS - I tried your algorithm and ran into a problem. Since your algoritm
was a yes/no set up, I tried setting it via Excel. It should have worked.
Unfortunately, it didn't work as precisely as I'd have hoped. Hopefully, I
was dense and did something wrong with your formula, but I suspect that I
didn't. Perhaps if I applied the same "logic" to your formula that I did
with mine, it might work better. Will have to test it out...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:22:07 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"IIRC the report on the Stark incident concluded that if her damage
control had any worse than it was she would've sunk, and she had the best in
the fleet at the time."
Mr. Boleyn,
Fleet damage control school doesn't grade on a curve; just because the
Stark was judged to be excellent, doesn't mean that other ships couldn't
achieve the same ranking. Stark's excellent rating allowed her to survive.
Other ship's surely had the same rating too.
"No 'time in' requirement in the Army here, just a period (5 years?)
afterwards during which they can call you up when they feel the need."
We have a similar mechanism here called "critical rates". They keep
tabs on al sorts of specialists with an eye towards coaxing them back for
certain jobs or a simple shanghaing. I recieved an intriguing letter during
the Gulf War build up, although what they were thinking I don't know. I
suspect they were simply mass mailing all the folks on the "critical job"
lists as a precaution.
They did "call up" a few beachmasters and army support types; water
purification, transport, etc.
When the BBs were reactivated in the early 80's, they used the same
mechanism to bring back the old 16 inch turret crews in order to train the
new ones.
OBTrav - What would the Imperium's (or more accurately, colonial navy's) use
of reservists be like? Could it be a plausible excuse for a GM to pull
together a group of PCs and ship them off to a certain adventure?
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:11:43 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
> From: "Rupert Boleyn"
> On 19 Feb 2001, at 22:44, Alan Bradley wrote:
>
> > Of course, it is quite conceivable that the reason why Australia is
> > poaching Kiwi personnel is because there is a chronic shortfall of
> > recruits and a low retention rate in the Australian military too...
>
> Of course, though one wonders where they're going...
A scary thought. : )
(Well, of course most of them are just getting "real jobs" in the civilian
world, but that's boring...)
Oh, on the WO1/WO2 thing: In the Australian Army WO1s are senior to WO2s.
Presumably the NZ case would be the same.
(My memory told me this was true, but I checked it on the ADF website.)
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:24:55 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: RE: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
> From: "Trevor, Peter"
> Sounds good to me. Though I suspect the Constitution would have
> further changed by 1100. My feeling is that the 3I Constitution
> of 1100 would be like the modern day version of the UK
> 'constitution': a body of laws and traditions rather than a
> single document. The 'static-ness' of an unwritten constitution
> being provided by the desire of the establishment to preserve
> the status quo.
Yeah. The other thing is that even written constitutions tend to be
associated with conventions that can significantly modify the written text.
For example, by the strict letter of its written Constitution, Australia
is a dictatorship ruled by the Governor-General, who is accountable only to
the British monarch. Parliament exists, but doesn't really do anything.
> This would explain Dulinor's belief that reform was possible,
> followed by his exasperation at the slow *pace* of reform. Were
> a written Constitution document in place then reform (of the
> nature Dulinor championed) would not have been possible at all
> without Strephon sitting down to rewrite that Constitution. But
> an unwritten 'constitution' allows change but such change would
> be resisted and slow.
Could be. The key is the resistance to it. Dulinor's reforms would have
tended to undercut the position of major sections of the nobility, and so
had no real chance of success.
> Thus, Arbellatra's 'constitution' was the 3I's version of the
> Magna Carta rather than a US style Constitution.
One of the rude things that has been said about the Magna Carta is that it
was a document establishing the principle that barons could do anything
they wanted to their serfs without any external restraint, and that none of
the liberties it established applied to the serfs themselves.
The Ine Givar might have something similar to say about Arbellatra's
constitution.
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:22:18 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: RE: TGOOs
Dean wrote:
>If anyone hadn't guessed, 'bang' is ancient hacker (computer expert, not
>cracker) slang for the exclamation mark.
Actually, the term "bang" for exclamation point goes way back to the dark
old days of typesetters, proofreaders, ad men, graphic designers and the
like. I've known some people in the past who would have had an apoplectic
fit upon hearing that the term was invented by computer-people of any
stripe.
Hmmmm... That came out as being much more enigmatic and bizarre than I
intended, so I guess I have to explain myself. Back at the dawn of the last
decade, I studied under some old-school graphic designers. Though the
desktop publishing movement was already well underway at that point, it was
still possible for graphic designers to get by with the traditional tools of
the trade (huge books with pages and pages of fonts, rulers, t-squares,
rubber cement, hot wax machines, copious amounts of paper, and so on).
Anyone with two brain cells to rub together could see that people wielding
such tools were making buggy-whips, which didn't sit well with my teachers
at all, and so they directed more than a little venom in the direction of
computers in general, and the computerized graphic design industry
specifically...
Which is why they would have had a fit if it was suggested that
computer-people of any sort invented the term "bang" for exclamation point.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:26:51 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
"The surface and sub communities are completely different kettles of
fish. One has to volunteer for sub duty and then go to lots of schools
and special training."
Mr. Harris,
Except for nucs, alas.
I distinctly remember ICs being folded into the EM ranks during my
tour. The nuc ICs were all ticked off about having to buy new "crows" for
their uniforms. The one or two DC types had the same squawk.
Are both these rates "hanging on" in the reserve formations?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:42:11 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 20 Feb 2001, at 1:22, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> OBTrav - What would the Imperium's (or more accurately, colonial navy's) use of
> reservists be like? Could it be a plausible excuse for a GM to pull together a
> group of PCs and ship them off to a certain adventure?
The impression I get is that the IN, Marines, etc. don't call up their
seperated veterans. Scouts do, of course. As for the Imperial Army, Doug Berry
should know. :) However if you served in a Colonial Fleet and are in-system
when they need you some planetary government probably have a call-up policy.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:23:29 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
>On 18 Feb 2001, at 17:14, Terry Carlino wrote:
>
>> By the way while Tridents may indeed have 6-9 man berthing the typical
>> carrier or cruiser has 30-150 person berthing, which gives a completely
>> different environment. You can get to know 6-9 people. Getting to know
150
>> people when all are on different watches and work in different
specialties
>> is difficult. It's like living at the Y. You can't leave your towel
hanging on
>> the rack without worrying about somebody taking it. This doesn't even
cover the
>> difficulty a senior petty officer has having to live among the people
(s)he
>> supervises. It's like living in the same room as your kids.
>
>Good Gods! What on earth possesd the USN to do that? This is the first time
>I've ever heard of a serious military organisation that houses senior NCOs
with
>their men (barring infantry in trenches) on that scale. Ick.
>
>--
It's all where you draw the line. In the U.S. Air Force, Army and Marines
the top 4 enlisted pay grades are counted as "senior" NCO's. (Most foreign
navies follow the same practice.) In the USN you're not a senior NCO until
you make E-7, Chief Petty Officer. So until you make CPO you have no special
privileges. It's part of the continual creep of loss of privileges that is
going on in the Navy. Up until the 1980's PO1's at least had separate
messes, where they could network and unwind separately from their troops.
This privilege was erased by the Navy, by eliminating this space on new
ships as they were built. Meanwhile the responsibilities given to these men
and women keep increasing.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:40:22 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 19 Feb 2001, at 21:23, Terry Carlino wrote:
> It's all where you draw the line. In the U.S. Air Force, Army and Marines
> the top 4 enlisted pay grades are counted as "senior" NCO's. (Most foreign
> navies follow the same practice.) In the USN you're not a senior NCO until
> you make E-7, Chief Petty Officer. So until you make CPO you have no special
> privileges. It's part of the continual creep of loss of privileges that is going
> on in the Navy. Up until the 1980's PO1's at least had separate messes, where
> they could network and unwind separately from their troops. This privilege was
> erased by the Navy, by eliminating this space on new ships as they were built.
> Meanwhile the responsibilities given to these men and women keep increasing.
Sounds like there's going to be trouble over that, sooner or later. For us
while in camp the Corporals (including Lance Corporals) have their own bar,
though quite a few of the Corporals used to sneak into the "baggies bar" (other
ranks) to be with their men once they were out of uniform, even though it was a
chargeable offence (it mean you were impersonating another rank).
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:41:42
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Source Code request?
Hi Hal,
There is an algorithm for printing out a hex grid buried in my Quick Basic
program at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/J_Lambert/TWorlds.htm
This could be modified to draw lines to replace the "/", "\", and "_"
characters. Hope this helps.
John
>From: hal@buffnet.net
>
>Hello Tim,
> You couldn't by chance do the same for Visual Basic could you - regards
>to drawing hexgrids on a map?
>
> Hal
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:54:35 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: Megatraveller & CT
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C09ABE.8C1C42E0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In y'all's opinion, what in the Megatraveller universe can be readily =
applied to an CT/GT campaign? Some has been said about Fighting Ships =
of the Shattered Imperium and the COACC manual, but what of the =
Rebellion Sourcebook, Encyclopedia or Diaspora Sector? =20
Just wondering . . .
- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C09ABE.8C1C42E0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="Windows-1252"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dwindows-1252" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2014.210" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<DIV>In y'all's opinion, what in the Megatraveller =
universe can be=20
readily applied to an CT/GT campaign?&nbsp; Some has been said about =
Fighting=20
Ships of the Shattered Imperium and the COACC manual, but what of the =
Rebellion=20
Sourcebook, Encyclopedia or Diaspora Sector?&nbsp; </DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Just wondering . . .</DIV>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C09ABE.8C1C42E0--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:57:20 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> "Over the remaining time in my 6 year enlistment, I earned E-5 and E-6
>the regular way. I would have been promoted to E-7 the year I got out."
>
> "Good Lord. Our Territorials (which I served in) are known for fast
>promotions (partly an attempt to improve retention, partly so people have
>the rank and pay equal to their responsibilites) and I took five years to
>get to Lance Corporal(though the average was more like 3-4 years)."
>
>Mr. Boleyn,
> Good Lord indeed. Thanks to this rank inflation for certain shipboard
>jobs (all of them high tech) there is quite a gulf between parts of the
>crew. On my cruiser, nuc engineering barely dealt with the rest of the
>crew. Of course, it didn't help that most of our workspaces were off
limits
>to them due to either radiation exposure or security reasons. We were
>almost two different crews.
> Non-nuc divisions (work groups for specific jobs; ie electrcians,
>cooks, etc.) had NCOs of a more "normal" age who'd been in for a more
>"normal" amount of time. On our mess deck there was a lounge in which all
>E-6's were supposed to eat in. I never did. None of the nucs never did.
>We had nothing in common with the regular E-6's, some of which were in
their
>late thirties, who did eat there.
> We loathed them for being brainless, lifer scum, just waiting for
their
>20 year pensions, and not having the balls or brains to make it in the real
>world. I'm mortally sure they had equally poor opinions of us.
> Anyone who re-enlisted in nuc engineering beyond their original 6
years
>was thought of poorly too. He was socially ostracized at the very least.
>My division went close to 3 years without one happening. Trying to keep
>engineering manned with the poor quality of life and the attitude displayed
>by the current crew was next to impossible. Like bailing with a seive.
>
>
Having Served in both the nuclear and regular USN I can attest to Mr.
Whipsnade's description of the general quality of the Navy's nuclear trained
sailors. As a group they are of above average intelligence, and are very
technically competent at their profession. They are generally poor sailors
in the traditional sense, undisciplined, with no respect for naval
tradition, and little interest in mastering the skills of naval warfare. One
of the biggest mistakes the Navy made was making these people enlisted
rather than specialist grade warrant officers. This was a decision made by
Admiral Hyman J. Rickover in the early days of the Nuclear Navy.
No offense meant to Mr Whipsnade or any other member on this list. He is
quite right that most nuclear enlisted persons have little in common with
the other, more mature, senior petty officers. You can't expect a 22 year
old with a high level of technical skill, but very little life experience to
see things like the need for military discipline in the same way that a 30
year old who has had to make life-or-death decisions does. Some people are
just not cut out for a life of military service. That's cool. It's one of
the reasons we have 4 and 6 year enlistments instead of 20 year enlistments
like the Romans did.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:12:29 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Source Code request?
At 02:41 AM 2/20/2001, you wrote:
>Hi Hal,
>There is an algorithm for printing out a hex grid buried in my Quick Basic
>program at:
>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/J_Lambert/TWorlds.htm
>This could be modified to draw lines to replace the "/", "\", and "_"
>characters. Hope this helps.
>John
Hello John,
By chance, was it you who sent me the C programming "distance finder"
pseudo-code? If so, I apologize for mis-attributing it to someone else...
I will look at the coding. Perhaps I can make use of it <grin>.
I got my FAR TRADER program up and running in VB Saturday. It was crude
and such, but it did generate cargo lots, their Terms of Shipping, and the
like. But now I am thinking about long term stuff for the program, as I
can see I've got some ground laying work to complete. First problem I see
is that I missed totally the implication that each world has a baseline of
how much cargo it is shipping. The shipping volume changes from week to
week much like the average shipping price chances and the like. I also now
realize that I have to account for whether the world is considered to be on
the trade routes or not. Just means that I have to add to the Database
listing a field for "Trade status": heavy, medium, light, non-existant (or
whatever the corresponding values would be in FAR TRADER). Sooner or later
though, I'm going to want to be able to set it up so that I present the
screen/graphic of the spinward marches rather than using a input box that
accepts hex identification numbers...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:11:38 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Source Code request?
On Monday, February 19, 2001 3:23 PM
Timothy Little said,
> What language are you after? I've got one in Postscript. I can also
> dig out some code in C for X11. I might be able to write you some in
> a spare 15 minutes, depending on what form of output you need e.g. X11
> drawing calls? Floating-point line segment endpoint coordinates?
> Drawing into a pixel array? Does it need to do its own clipping?
> Can't help you with Windows- or Mac- specific stuff though.
D'oh! I realized after I posted that I should have been more specific, but
I was hurriedly posting while waiting for a compile and before running into
a meeting.
C code would be great. I mainly do windows based coding Visual Basic &
Visual C/C++. I can handle the clipping and the actual platform specific
drawing routines. What I am mainly looking for is how to figure out where
the vertices of the hexagons are on a X,Y coordinate system for the line
drawing routines. I tried to do some calculating based on the angles, but
something in my math or my measurements are off as the hexagons come out
distorted.
I grabbed code from www.scintegration.com,
(http://www.scintegration.com/doodle/gallery_of_turtle_programs/regularunifo
rmtessellations.htm)
for doing Regular Uniform Tessellations, but haven't had time to try it.
I also fond some Hexagonal lattice code from
(http://www.swin.edu.au/astronomy/pbourke/geometry/hexagon/), but it is
designed to create lattices based on Spiral Honeycomb Mosaic indexing system
and would be a pain to adapt for maps and such.
If you have any code examples that might help, I would be more than happy to
look at them.
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs.
====================
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:20:03 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Source Code request?
Hello Folks,
Just your average friendly idiot sending to the list mail he meant for
private consumption <grin>. I'm used to the GURPS mailing list where you
respond to the sender rather than to the mailing list when you hit the
respond button.
Ignore what you saw. Keep moving Citizen. Fnord.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:16:45 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Source Code request?
On Monday, February 19, 2001 8:25 PM
hal@buffnet.net said,
> You couldn't by chance do the same for Visual Basic could you - regards
> to drawing hexgrids on a map?
Once I get my code working ( I plan on doing both C++ & VB) I would be happy
to share the relevant code with you. I'm playing with the directX 8.0
drawing functions right now, but I could quickly whip together code to draw
to a VB form based on a passed hDc. A VB 6.0 class or just a function and
declares would be no problem once I get the algorithm working properly.
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs.
====================
"On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!], 'Pray, Mr.
Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers
come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas
that could provoke such a question." -Charles Babbage
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:16:46 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Planet map template (again)
Greetings,
Some kind sole on the list sent me a planetary map template in Adobe
Illustrator 1.1 format. Naturally, I have lost this file, so if that kind
soul could resend it, I would be most appreciative.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:24:30 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
Gerry Harris wrote:
>The Marines and the Air Force are also both all-volunteer
>organizations. Historically, only the Army has had the draft.
>
>The Marines consider themselve an elite, so I'm not sure they would
>accept any reluctant warriors ...
Sure, they will accept them, run them through a grinder and spit them
out before they have served long enough to disqualify them from the
draft, therefore the army gets them anyway. (unless they survive the
marines and adjust to the marine way)
Charles
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:25:53 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"This privilege was erased by the Navy, by eliminating this space on
new ships as they were built. Meanwhile the responsibilities given to these
men and women keep increasing."
"Sounds like there's going to be trouble over that, sooner or later..."
Mr. Boleyn,
It's part and partial of the "rank(or rate) inflation" we talked about
earlier. In order to attract the people they need to handle more technical
jobs, they have to offer more pay. Just providing training isn't enough.
With an antiquated pay system based on X amount of money for Y amount of
braid on your arm, they have to start the tech rates out at a higher rank
and advance them faster. It's institutional inertia. They quite simply
can't think of another way. They can't even imagine about thinking about
another way.
The E-4's who worked for me did jobs more similar to E-1s and 2s in
other divisions. They had to, we had no one who ranked any lower. I was an
E-6, PO1, and my fellow E-6s and I had nothing in common with the real PO1s.
My ship had a PO1 mess and lounge, but I never step foot in it unless
ordered there for a "all-PO1" meeting with the XO or CO.
The real PO1s despised us as jumped up push-buttons who didn't earn or
rank. We loathed them for being dullards and lifers. Both groups were
right.
Our ages were 8 to 10 years apart. Our educations, even prior to the
service, were wildly different. We had nothing in common with them.
Although we could have learned from them, we would have never admitted it.
My ship had two seperate crews, de facto if not de jure.
We called the non-nuc portion of the crew "consumers" and referred to
ourselves as "California Water & Light."
The only real way to put an end to this is for the military to begin
paying you by the job you do and not strictly by the bit of cloth on your
arm. Then the wedge of unearned rank would be removed.
Fat chance of the trilobytes in the Pentagon agreeing to that one.
OBTrav - Would there be jobs in the IN that due to their technical or
dangerous natures might be paid more than other ranks? Rather than pay
these rates more, would the IN resort to a draft? How would the IN deal
with the problem inherent when you pay a mop jockey and a spinal weapons
tech the same pay?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:33:35 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 20 Feb 2001, at 3:25, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> OBTrav - Would there be jobs in the IN that due to their technical or
> dangerous natures might be paid more than other ranks? Rather than pay
> these rates more, would the IN resort to a draft? How would the IN deal
> with the problem inherent when you pay a mop jockey and a spinal weapons
> tech the same pay?
I was going to say that they do pay different amounts, because that's what the
starship operations rules show, but then it occurred to me that just because
merchies and mercs pay sensible rates doesn't mean the IN or Marines do.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:40:45 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness
James wrote:
>At 03:03 PM 2/18/01 -0600, Charles Hensley wrote:
>>James wrote:
>>
>> ><Snip a fascinating description of life on a target. (There are two
>>types
>>of ships - submarines and targets.)>
>>
>>I have to disagree here. There are 3 types of ships: targets,
>>submarines, and submarine killers
>
>Though in my experience, the only reliable sub killers are submarines
>themselves....
We nearly got one.
and as I said this REALY relies on quality of BOTH ship and crew. And
as I said we went from subkiller to target in LESS than a year due to
losing quality in both.
Charles
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3705
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
Date: | 2/19/01 9:19:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 20 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3706
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
Democracy Now!
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
RE: Democracy Now!
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
RE: Ship habitability
Land Grab Announcement
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Democracy Now!
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Democracy Now!
Re: Democracy Now!
RE: Democracy Now!
Re: Darrian names?
RE: Democracy Now!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:00:03 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
At 03:34 PM 2/19/01 +0000, John Lambert wrote:
>There are a few of us ex-officers on the list (Captain, USAF Reserve
>Retired). The use of the same names for different ranks between the Navy
>and the "ground" forces, i.e., Lieutenant and Captain, can cause some
>confusion at times. (I got a great reception a few years ago when entering
>a Naval base and showing my reserve Captain's ID card.)
While I was in Scotland, my flatmate was sent down to the Navy hospital at
RAF Lakenheath to have his knee looked at. Billeting for visiting Yanks
was run by USAF personnel; when Chris checked in, the airman looked at his
Petty Officer ID and promptly assigned him a room in the bOQ....
8)
James
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:01:49 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
At 03:34 PM 2/19/01 +0000, John Lambert wrote:
>In the Army and the Air Force (spun off from the Army), both 1st and 2nd
>Lieutenants are generally addressed as "Lieutenant".
Same with a jig (LTjg) and an LT. A Lieutenant Commander and a Commander
are both addressed as "Commander," and all warrant officers are called
"Warrant."
James
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:24:42 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
At 09:50 PM 2/19/01 +0000, yLarrsen E Whipsnade wrote:
>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
> "Put the two together, and I'm an Electronics Technician First Class
> (ET1)."
>
> Mr. Gilly's post,
My name is James. Mr Gilly was my grandfather.
>plus that of Mr. Harris, has started me thinking about ratings (job
>classifications) within the IN. Although HG2 does provide some clues,
>what sort of job classifications do you think would exist in the Imperial Navy?
> Missileman, naturally. Engineering might split up a bit; ie. drives,
> mechanics, electrical, electronic, etc.
J-drive techs, M-drive techs, electronics techs, electricians mates, and
A-gangers (who would handle the life-support systems).
>Would screens be split up too, a Dampersman 2nd class and a Chief Globe
>Operator?
Probably - I think the two are sufficiently different. Black-Globe Tech
and White-Globe Tech might be separate ratings, or just different NECs.
>Would beam weapons be divvied up between lasers, fusion, and plasma
>guns? How about spinal mounts?
I'd say GMBs (Gunner's Mate, Beam Wpns), to go with the GMMs (or MTs) and
the GMGs. Spinal mounts would be operated by the same personnel as the
smaller weapons - maybe with different NECs.
For you non-Navy types: GMM = Gunner's Mate, Missiles; GMG = Gunner's Mate,
Guns; MT = Missile Technician. GMMs are on skimmers (surface ships); MTs
are on boomers (ballistic -missile subs).
>The ancillary rates, each as important as the ones mentioned above, could
>be interesting. Would vacc suit maintenance rate one?
That's an A-ganger's job, too.
>Comm gear would of course, along with computer work.
><snip>
> Names change meaning too. I was a machinist mate, but never ran a
> lathe. My early 1900's predecessors might have, but by 1980 we'd morphed
> into something different.
And of course MRs (Machinery Repairmen) do all of the lathework now.
I signed up as a Radioman. A few years ago, all submarine RMs,
Quartermasters, and IC-men were converted into Electronics
Technicians. Shortly thereafter, submarine Torpedomen were made
Machinists' Mates (Weps MMs, as opposed to the A-gangers). In the
meantime, Data-Processor Techs were combined with skimmer RMs, and the
combined rating was renamed "Information Systems Tech" (IT). And skimmer
Torpedomen were converted into GMGs. So there are now no RMs or TMs any
more. Gone the way of the CS, the RD, the nuc IC, the TD....
> In my lifetime, boiler techs have all but disappeared from the USN.
>They used to be one of the biggest groups, but all new combatants are
>either gas turbines or nucs. No fossil steam plants are built anymore.
BTs are history. Most became MMs, but I saw a BT3(SS) standing topside
watch on a boat last year - he'd converted to A-ganger and volunteered for
subs, but as he hadn't been advanced yet he was still wearing his BT
crow. Looked very strange....
James
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:39:45 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
At 11:01 PM 2/19/01 +0000, Larsen E Whipsnade also wrote:
>OBTrav - Is there a job or ship type in the IN that's viewed as
>particularily odious? Or one that is viewed with great favor? Could this
>explain a PC's, with a 12 year navy career, decision to "retire"?
>"They cut me orders to a monitor, so I got out. A monitor?!!? I'm a
>cruiser man!"
Starships vs spaceships. The BBs and cruisers vs tincans (destroyers and
escorts).
James
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:36:26 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
At 11:01 PM 2/19/01 +0000, Larsen E Whipsnade wrote:
> The IC guys were all converted into EMs, electricians. Apparently,
> whatever had differences in their work and equipment that had caused the
> creation of two "rates" had disappeared. DC types all joined up with
> HTs; meaning hull techs in navy-ese, welders to the rest of us.
Nuc IC-men were converted into Nuc EMs back in '84 or '85 (there were two
on my first boat), but conventional IC-men are still out there in the
surface fleet. Had them on subs, too, until they were converted (along
with the RMs and QMs) into ETs. DCs didn't stay gone long - they were
brought back around '87 or '88. (The firecracker team on Simon Lake was
made up of DC-men.)
> BTs simply faded away. In their place, two ro three tpes of GT; gas
> turbine, rates have grown up.
GSE (Gas Turbine Electrician) and GSM (Gas Turbine Mechanic).
> "Why is being a nuc on a sub considered a different job than on a
> cruiser? From what you're saying personnel aren't tranferrred from one to
> the other, and yet it sounds like they're the same job. This seems a bit
> silly."
>
> Sub crews have always been volunteers, even during the brief periods
> the NAvy used draftees. There are a few medical conditions that would
> bar you from sub duty, but still allow you to serve aboard a ship. One
> onf the chiefs I worked for had been a sub type (bubblehead) for years
> until a medical problem forced him out.
> Sub crews, ecept for nucs, also recieve extra training, so you tend
> to get that at the beginning of you career rather than the end. While
> most rates can bounce back and forth between either ship or sub (I
> believe) nucs are locked in. And for no reason I ever could discern.
Once you're qualified subs, you're a bubblehead for life - the only way
you'll get away temporarily to a non-submarine billet is if your rating is
overmanned and you can talk your detailer into letting you go. I only got
to the tender because there were billets in Repair which were specifically
for sub RMs, and one of them opened up at just the right time.
Knew an RM who tried to fly a chit requesting to be transferred from sub
dut on the grounds that he was no longer a volunteer. It didn't work. 8)
James
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:50:00 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
"No offense meant to Mr Whipsnade or any other member on this list. He
is quite right that most nuclear enlisted persons have little in common with
the other, more mature, senior petty officers. You can't expect a 22 year
old with a high level of technical skill, but very little life experience to
see things like the need for military discipline in the same way that a 30
year old who has had to make life-or-death decisions does. Some people are
just not cut out for a life of military service. That's cool. It's one of
the reasons we have 4 and 6 year enlistments instead of 20 year enlistments
like the Romans did."
Mr. Carlino,
No offense taken sir, because I completely agree with every point in
your post! Looking back at myself and my peers from over 15 years in the
future makes me wince. We were brash, insufferable, little SOBs, given rank
simply as a way of boosting our pay. Because we didn't earn the rank, we
had no respect for it.
As a 24 year old, I was an enlisted man standing watch as an enlisted
officer of the watch, training newly arrived officers, and being asked about
the suitability as to their qualifications for watch officer. Is it any
wonder that the niceties of military discipline and rank were lost to me?
Or why the opinions of a man ten years my senior, but my junior in rank,
were automatically dismissed? Callow isn't a strong enough word to describe
our behavior. We were horrible little bastards.
As the military is forced to handle more and more technical duties,
determining pay rates without taking into account the actual job being
performed is asinine. We already pay pilots, divers, demo experts more, way
not the hard to fill tech rates? Heck, why not ALL hard to fill rates more?
The USN has far too many typewriter bangers and cooks, but far too few
bosuns. Might "bosun pay" entice a few more into the rate? The Army could
use the same device to flesh out it's infantry ranks.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:56:13 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
Doug wrote:
>Sergeants Major are terrifying forces of nature. They really run the
Army,
>although they let the officers pretend that they have something to do
with
>it. Very tolerant ones will even call 2nd Lieutenants "sir" on
occasion.
And if the 2nd Lt turns him in for not saying sir, the Sergeant Major
gets a light slap on the hand, "don't do that again", and the 2nd Lt.
gets royally chewed out.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:04:27 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Democracy Now!
All this take of legal systems and constitutions
leads me back to a setting-shaking event I want
to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it myself:
A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.
With a goal to create a Federal Republic type
system. Maybe it's Yanks in Space but so what!
There are ways to do it without following the
American model.
I can dream can't I. :-P
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:40:28
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
At 12:38 PM 2/19/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>What is that they say on the c-130 gunships "Don't run away, you'll only
>die tired"
Ah, the AC-130 Spectre.. a plane most player characters would love.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:57:42 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
Already done in TNE. Refco and to some extent the Regency become
Republics.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels [mailto:stevedaniels@portcaddo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 3:04 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Democracy Now!
All this take of legal systems and constitutions
leads me back to a setting-shaking event I want
to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it myself:
A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.
With a goal to create a Federal Republic type
system. Maybe it's Yanks in Space but so what!
There are ways to do it without following the
American model.
I can dream can't I. :-P
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:09:28 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> Steve Daniels writes:
> >And fundamentally, this is a problem of the court system. In the 3I,
> >the courts exist only at the pleasure of the nobility. There are no
> >rules of stare decisis, i.e., no binding precedent. Time for appeals
> >can be limited or expanded by the noble in charge.
>
> I should like to know what source material you base these claims on.
None. The absence of any material suggesting stare decisis is practiced
leads me to the conclusion that it isn't. That time for appeals 'can' be
limited doesn't assert that they are or are not, merely that, in the abstract,
they could be. My point was that limiting the time and availability of
appeals can alleviate the drawn-out legal case problem that some see.
> >There is no precedence. Whatever the noble says. Including seizures
> >of your current land, regardless of whatever title you may claim.
>
> Land is likely to be one of the things an Imperial noble would have a really
> tough time usurping. Unless it belongs to the Imperium already, all land belongs
> to someone who is a citizen of a world government. As such, whatever treaty (or
> whatever such a document is called) made when the world joined the Imperium
> would spell out the rights surrendered by the world to the Imperium. If this
> included any land, said land would be defined to the inch.
Probably. But then to which court do you appeal alleged incursions?
The Moot?
> >Archduke Norris to Titled Owner of nice hunting land:
> >"Nice place you have here. Excuse me. Nice place *I* have here.
> >You have 30 seconds to leave forever."
>
> Regardless of the legalities or lack thereoff, That's not at all the way I
> picture Norris.
Replace "Norris" with "X".
> >In canon, there is very little evidence of any significant legal framework,
> >and particularly little that might resemble modern democratic systems.
>
> The Duchy of Regina has a senate. It's powers are not defined and it may simply
> be advisory, but then again, it may not. Certainly someone in the subsector
> bureaucracy found it worth while to kidnap a senator and hide him away.
That isn't an imperial legal framework. Perhaps the senator was wealthy?
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:12:09 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
Larsen wrote:
> Names change meaning too. I was a machinist mate, but never ran a
>lathe. My early 1900's predecessors might have, but by 1980 we'd
morphed
>into something different. How much of that would occur in the IN over
1000
>years?
Hey, wait a minute, that is the job of a Hull Tech.
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 04:14:11 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Land Grab Announcement
Gentlemen,
I've decided to take the plunge and join the Land Grab.
I hearby plant my flag, with suitable Whipsnade Family crest, the
following two worlds:
Winston/Querion/Spinward Marches
0620 E887573-6 Ag nIn 501Da K5 V M9 D
Grote/Glisten/Spinward Marches
1731 A400404-B nIn Va 124Im F8 V
Anyone familiar with my e-mail address shouldn't be surprised with the
second one. Anyone on the "Trav-Culture" list won't be surprised with the
first.
I've also sent this along to the fellows at Downport.com.
Hope my choices haven't stepped on any toes! Please be kind when the
details come out. Some of my work on these two is pre-MT. I'll be using
Scouts, WBH, and a little RSB.
Larsen
P.S. Rob Davenport - Now you know where those ships we've been talking about
operate.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:16:33
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
At 09:56 PM 2/19/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>And if the 2nd Lt turns him in for not saying sir, the Sergeant Major
>gets a light slap on the hand, "don't do that again", and the 2nd Lt.
>gets royally chewed out.
My ex-roomie told once about a scene he witnessed at HHC, 2nd Armored
Division.
A 2LT was complaining to the Division CSM about the lack of respect the CSM
was giving him, a commissioned officer. Evidently, the CSM already had 32
years in, was approaching retirement, and had ceased to tolerate small,
annoying things like junior officers.
The LT threatened to take this to the General. Next day, the LT is ordered
to report to the Commanding General. The CG and CSM are in the office, as
well as my friend who was serving as the CG's secretary.
CG: "Lieutenant, how old are you?"
LT: "23, Sir."
CG: "23.. Lieutenant, are you aware that this NCO was in the Army for a
decade before you were born? Are you aware he was a decorated, respected
combat veteran before you knew what your dick was for? Are you aware that
this NCO was the gunner on the first tank *I* commanded 25 years ago?
Lieutenant, you are not going to get any respect from the Sergeant Major,
since you haven't earned any. And Lieutenant, a word of advice.. *never*
invoke the Commanding General unless you are ready to come into this
office. Do you understand me?"
LT: (visibly shaken) "Yes sir!"
CSM: (to General) "Sorry to bother you with this Dave."
CG: "No problem John, dinner on Saturday?"
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:40:59 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
Larsen wrote:
>>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> "Ah. I assumed that DC would be specialists at jury-rigging pumps
and
>such, or fire-fighting or some-such, and so I couldn't think of
anything
>else they might have become."
>
>Mr. Boleyn,
> Everyone, and I mean everyone, one board a USN ship is considered
part
>of the damage control team. It's one of the training exercises the
entire
>in crew is involved in. Look the the damage taken by the Cole, the
Stark,
>and the Roberts, plus their WW2 bretheren, without sinking. It's
something
>the "Haze Grey Canoe Club" has always been proud of. Even the poorly
>motivated, "I'm here so I couldn't be drafted", squids of the Vietnam
era
>saved the Forrestal off Yankee Station in '69 from a horrific fire.
> After the Falklands, procedures and equipment were upgraded even
more.
>The mucky-mucks took a very hard look at all the troubles the Brits had
had.
> Perhaps they thought DC specialists would take away from the
"total
>crew" emphasis.
There are also levels of Damage Control Teams. Each watch shift (2 - 4,
depending on the ship) had a first team. First DC team always consists
of all Hull Techs, all DC men, one electrician, and a Corpsman (who
reports to the Infirmary), plus however many extra people needed to man
the fire hoses, from that shift. 2nd team consists of 1 electrician,
all otherwise unoccupied snipes (below decks crew), third team is
EVERYBODY. Aircraft carriers also have the same thing for the flight
deck (but I don't know who are the required personel).
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:51:28 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
Thou SHALT NOT speak the name of the UNHOLY
here!
If you want me to be more specific, I will.
I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still
Emperor in the 1120s-1140s. Screw Virus! :-P
bloo
Paul Harris wrote:
> Already done in TNE. Refco and to some extent the Regency become
> Republics.
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:00:41 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
Larsen Wrote:
>From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
> "The surface and sub communities are completely different kettles
of
>fish. One has to volunteer for sub duty and then go to lots of schools
>and special training."
>
>Mr. Harris,
> Except for nucs, alas.
> I distinctly remember ICs being folded into the EM ranks during my
>tour. The nuc ICs were all ticked off about having to buy new "crows"
for
>their uniforms. The one or two DC types had the same squawk.
> Are both these rates "hanging on" in the reserve formations?
ICmen were alive and well back in the 80's, the Navy only combined the
Nuc ICmen with EM's, non-Nuc ICmen were/are still around but may be
combined into Info Tech. On the Destroyer that I was on, the ICmen ran
the telephone system, internal communications systems, ship board TV and
"Radio" (4 closed circuit music channels).
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:52:57 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
Oh... that alternate universe GURPS thingy....
......... I thought we were talking Official Traveller Universe here!
;)
Note the emoticon people..... ;)
Here it is again............. ;)
- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels [mailto:stevedaniels@portcaddo.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 3:51 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
Thou SHALT NOT speak the name of the UNHOLY
here!
If you want me to be more specific, I will.
I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still
Emperor in the 1120s-1140s. Screw Virus! :-P
bloo
Paul Harris wrote:
> Already done in TNE. Refco and to some extent the Regency become
> Republics.
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 05:10:36 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
"I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still Emperor in the
1120s-1140s. Screw Virus! :-P"
Bloo,
I'm with you, partner. Screw Virus! Who spiked the water cooler when
they came up with that one!??!
Here's a list for you; New Coke, the Edsel, and Virus.
After the "Survival Margin" came out, a lady friend of mine actually
had a "Strephon Lives" tee shirt made for me. A very kind thing to do.
If T5's mileau hasn't been selected yet, that's where Mr. Miller should
put it. Screw Virus and pass the antibiotic!
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 05:13:04 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Oh... that alternate universe GURPS thingy....
......... I thought we were talking Official Traveller Universe here!
;)
Note the emoticon people..... ;)
Here it is again............. ;)
But it is February after all...
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:13:52 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Darrian names?
On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:04:43 -0600, Jimmy Simpson
<nimrodd@earthlink.net> wrote:
>At 06:10 PM 2/18/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>>Is there a Darrian name list and/or language generator out there anywhere?
>>Turning my storage room upside down has failed to produce my Darrians
>>Alien Module....
>>
>>Cheers,
>>Paul Drye
>>
>>_________________________________________________________________________
>>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>>
>
>I have a spreadsheet that generates names for 13 different Trav languages
>(Ael Yael, Aslan, Darrian, Dynchia, Gvegh, Happirhvani, Hkar, K'kree,
>Norsk, Oynprith, Vilani, Vuakedh and Zhodani). I can send it to you if you
>are interested.
>
>Jimmy Simpson
> nimrodd@mail.com
Since I appear to be the second "me too" to post this, perhaps you
could arrange to have this posted on one of the friendly Traveller web
sites as well.
I see that Jeff Zeitlin has something similar (though, from what I can
tell, not as diverse) being hosted at Freelance Traveller. Perhaps
you could arrange the same.
In any event, please send a copy my way as well.
Thanks.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:07:23 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
Errr... actually you can't treat viruses with antibiotics..... ;)
Bring on the Empress Wave!!!! I've got my surfboard right here!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Larsen E. Whipsnade [mailto:grote1731@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 4:11 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
"I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still Emperor in
the
1120s-1140s. Screw Virus! :-P"
Bloo,
I'm with you, partner. Screw Virus! Who spiked the water cooler
when
they came up with that one!??!
Here's a list for you; New Coke, the Edsel, and Virus.
After the "Survival Margin" came out, a lady friend of mine
actually
had a "Strephon Lives" tee shirt made for me. A very kind thing to do.
If T5's mileau hasn't been selected yet, that's where Mr. Miller
should
put it. Screw Virus and pass the antibiotic!
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3707
Date: | 2/19/01 10:48:58 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 20 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3707
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Democracy Now!
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Sgts
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: A Bertram Chandler
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Nasty cargo bays...
You can't have it (was Near C- Rocks! (TM))
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:08:22 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
Huh? Whats Febuary got to do with it?
- -----Original Message-----
From: Larsen E. Whipsnade [mailto:grote1731@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 4:13 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Oh... that alternate universe GURPS thingy....
......... I thought we were talking Official Traveller Universe here!
;)
Note the emoticon people..... ;)
Here it is again............. ;)
But it is February after all...
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:25:27 +0000
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
Federal Republic! Ugh!!!!!
Constitutional Monarchy... Now THAT'S the way to go!
Why a Constitutional Monarchy?
Five reasons;
1. Easier transition
2. People need a symbol which can transcend planetary/regional
patriotism
3. A Federal democracy would encounter serious problems reconciling the
fundamental differences in planetary governments. this would provoke
wholesale intervention in "local" affairs.
4. Federal democracies are prone to either centralization (impractical
in case of polity as large as 3I), OR, fragmentation if to
decentralized.
5. Incredible possibilities for role-playing in the political intrigues
surrounding this kind of transition.
Doug C
<LBB since <1980)
"Up the Yanks... Three cheers for Her Majesty!!!"
Steve Daniels wrote:
>
> All this take of legal systems and constitutions
> leads me back to a setting-shaking event I want
> to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it myself:
>
> A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.
> With a goal to create a Federal Republic type
> system. Maybe it's Yanks in Space but so what!
> There are ways to do it without following the
> American model.
>
> I can dream can't I. :-P
>
> bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:31:30 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
At 10:51 PM 2/19/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>Thou SHALT NOT speak the name of the UNHOLY
>here!
>
>If you want me to be more specific, I will.
>
>I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still
>Emperor in the 1120s-1140s. Screw Virus! :-P
Hello Bloo,
From what I'm seeing in the Traveller discussion on law and the Imperium,
it would seem that there are those who think that being a noble in the
Imperium grants nobles the right to confiscate property, control courts of
law based on the capriciousness of whim, etc...
That being the case? What causes a rebellion is a discontent with the
way life is. It isn't just a discontent per se, but a realization that
things can't be worse. If you decide you want to have a Star Wars style
rebellion, it could start with something as silly as:
"In today's news, Emperor Strephon did affirm and ratify decisions by Baron
<fill in name here> that planetary member constitions be damned, the noble
has the right to enforce Imperial will at his lesiure."
This in turn sets the stage for *all* democratic governments that realize
where the wind is blowing. They meet in secret, with representatives in
the person who agree to meet under stringent circumstances. Alas, one of
their members is really a stooge for the Imperium, and despite the fact
that they really *were* plotting to overthrow the Imperium, member worlds
use PR to show that they were hapless individuals who were painted to look
treasonous in order to further the Imperial aims - domination. Since the
Democratic models of how a government should act on behalf of its citizens
has surely been violated, member worlds eventually start protesting the
Imperials for failure to observe *their* form of government. Then it
happens. A confrontational sit in from civilians meets up against a
*green* military garrison unit, and the unthinkable happens: massacre.
From there, it gets worse as the democracy oriented planets become
targets of a clamp down effort by the Imperium. Member worlds realize that
they can either Toady up to the Imperial masters, or they can fight the
Imperial Masters - but in a hidden manner. Soon, Warships start
experiencing double their usual breakdown rates as maintenance parts are
discovered to be sub standard, or just plain ill fitting. Imagine what
would happen when lubricants rated up to 150 degrees centigrade are now
only rated for 120 degrees - without warning?
Sooner or later, piracy starts to surge upwards as these hidden rebel
forces attempt to hit and run. One favored tactic would be to use Jump-0
jumps in an effort to fool the Imperial forces into thinking they went
elsewhere. There would be nothing worse than using Jump-0 to jump a mere 3
*feet* from where they were in an effort to escape pursuit via "time".
This means that once such tactics are used, the Imperial forces now need to
keep a fleet nearby for a week in order to insure that the hit and run unit
isn't coming back for more.
I don't know if this is what you meant or not. I would suggest that you
look at what worlds are actually democratic and see if they might be
willing to finance a guerilla warfare effort on the sly. I can also see
where the Zhodani might be willing to work with a few Imperials in the
following manner...
In the news today, Imperial forces discovered a military build up of
Zhodani forces near their borders. The Zhodani of course denied that they
were rattling their sabres, but insisted they were merely conducting
defensive manuevers against the day when Imperial forces might invade their
territories. The Local Duke has responded with a limited mobilization, and
has sent a requestion for instructions from the Arch Duke himself...
This would mean that Imperial forces would be perhaps a mite thinner than
they'd like. It would also explain why the garrison troops were used to
put down demonstrations, and act as the trigger for a civil war incident.
Perhaps one ship, armed with nuclear devices, truely by accident used a
nuclear weapon that was either improperly identified as conventional, or
was inproperly labled as conventional. Either way, the deaths of Imperial
Citizens at the hand of the Navy would likely result in a furor over said
event, perhaps sparking an even worse situation.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:34:21 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sgts
> >And if the 2nd Lt turns him in for not saying sir, the Sergeant Major
> >gets a light slap on the hand, "don't do that again", and the 2nd Lt.
> >gets royally chewed out.
One of GDW's USMC advisors told of a grizzled gunnery sgt who called Lts
"Skipper" if he liked them (i.e., if he thought they had potential), and
"Skippie" if he didn't. This enecdote contributed to some of the more amusing
"flavor text" pieces in assorted GDW products.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:42:48 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
> I'm with you, partner. Screw Virus! Who spiked the water cooler when
> they came up with that one!??!
> Here's a list for you; New Coke, the Edsel, and Virus.
Gentlemen, please bear in mind I was part of the creative team for TNE . . .
thank you.
Reminds me of the time some critic at the hotel bar at one of the east coast
Origins was sounding off on what a lousy book _Red Storm Rising_ was, and how
the scenario was totally implausible. I was sitting at the next table, with
Frank Chadwick and a couple of friends of GDW, including one Tom Clancy (this
was in the days he still could attend gaming cons and not be recognized). We
were all waiting for the critic to say "What idiot came up with that one?"
but he never did -- spolied a perfect anecdote in the making . . .
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:56:50 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> That being the case? What causes a rebellion is a discontent with the
> way life is.
They can also be started by those who want to be dictators but
need some help to get in office.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:58:16 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
Sorry, Loren. I started this.
I always thought that the good bits of TNE would have been
better if packaged as The Long Night. But I really don't like
the Virus. There's lots of me not to like. It just isn't all printed
and published and stuff like that. ;-)
bloo
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > I'm with you, partner. Screw Virus! Who spiked the water cooler when
> > they came up with that one!??!
> > Here's a list for you; New Coke, the Edsel, and Virus.
>
> Gentlemen, please bear in mind I was part of the creative team for TNE . . .
> thank you.
>
> Reminds me of the time some critic at the hotel bar at one of the east coast
> Origins was sounding off on what a lousy book _Red Storm Rising_ was, and how
> the scenario was totally implausible. I was sitting at the next table, with
> Frank Chadwick and a couple of friends of GDW, including one Tom Clancy (this
> was in the days he still could attend gaming cons and not be recognized). We
> were all waiting for the critic to say "What idiot came up with that one?"
> but he never did -- spolied a perfect anecdote in the making . . .
>
> LKW
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:00:54 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
"Doug C." wrote:
> Federal Republic! Ugh!!!!!
>
> Constitutional Monarchy... Now THAT'S the way to go!
> Why a Constitutional Monarchy?
[snip]
Slow down, pa'dner.
I didn't say it had to be a successful revolution.
If you want your counter-revolution to be a Constitutional
Monarchy, please, go right ahead. That might be fun.
Co-opts the democrats and appeases the tories.
No comment about actual real world systems that may
bear superficial similarity. :-P
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:19:54 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: A Bertram Chandler
- --part1_87.71a2eb4.27c3668a_boundary
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In mail you write:
>=A0 =A0 Oh yea,that's what I want to read, science fiction written in the 5=
0's=20
> and 60's. Oh yeah, I gotta have those books! NOT!!
I guess it's escaped your notice that Traveller is *intended* to
recreate the sort of SF that was *written* in the 50s and 60s.=20
So your comment ranks with putting down references to books set in the
Napoleonic Wars era on a list dedicated to games set in that same era.
::looks around:: Man!! This hole I dug myself just seems to get deeper an=
d=20
deeper, huh??
Look,I have nothing against the 50's and 60's style of play. I really=20
don't. I just like a more modern minded gameset is all. I'm sorry if i=20
offended anyone. MY MOST SINCERE APOLOGIES TO MR. ASIMOV>He is a SciFi god!!=
=20
LOL.=20
Let me explain myself. If people want a game much like 50's and 60's=20
stlye SciFi. I say go for it. But for those who like a more modern game=20
style, the CT and MT rules are by far the most flexible SciFi rules to be=20
published that are easily molded to anyones idea of what Space should be=20
like. Or more precisely, what they WANT space to be like.
Me, I like the Star Trek+Star Wars idea with a dash of Battlestar and a=20
pinch of everything else thrown in. My players like it too. We have great=20
games. We have even played games that were set in the past (like a 50's or=20
60's game) where we each played an ancestor of our modern day characters. It=
=20
was a blast!!
I guess the bottom line is: Different strokes for different folks.
As long as we're all in the same game. Who cares!!
Live Long and Prosper.
Shaggy3D
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In mail you write:
&gt;=A0 =A0 Oh yea,that's what I want to read, science fiction written i=
n the 50's=20
&gt; and 60's. Oh yeah, I gotta have those books! NOT!!
I guess it's escaped your notice that Traveller is *intended* to
recreate the sort of SF that was *written* in the 50s and 60s.=20
So your comment ranks with putting down references to books set in the
Napoleonic Wars era on a list dedicated to games set in that same era.
&nbsp;&nbsp;::looks around:: Man!! This hole I dug myself just seems to=
get deeper and=20
deeper, huh??
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Look,I have nothing against the 50's and 60's style o=
f play. I really=20
don't. I just like a more modern minded gameset is all. I'm sorry if i=20
offended anyone. MY MOST SINCERE APOLOGIES TO MR. ASIMOV&gt;He is a SciF=
i god!!=20
LOL.=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Let me explain myself. If people want a game much lik=
e 50's and 60's=20
stlye SciFi. I say go for it. But for those who like a more modern game=20
style, the CT and MT rules are by far the most flexible SciFi rules to b=
e=20
published that are easily molded to anyones idea of what Space should be=
=20
like. Or more precisely, what they WANT space to be like.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Me, I like the Star Trek+Star Wars idea with a dash o=
f Battlestar and a=20
pinch of everything else thrown in. My players like it too. We have grea=
t=20
games. We have even played games that were set in the past (like a 50's=20=
or=20
60's game) where we each played an ancestor of our modern day characters=
. It=20
was a blast!!
&nbsp;&nbsp;I guess the bottom line is: Different strokes for different=
folks.
&nbsp;&nbsp;As long as we're all in the same game. Who cares!!
&nbsp;&nbsp;Live Long and Prosper.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shagg=
y3D
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:22:10 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
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Actually I'm the one who is having the shit bored out of me by someone who
posts, in HTML, inane little one or two line responses to every damn post on
the list.=A0 I suggest as respectfully as I can, in return to this comment--
that you find a life.
Kiri=A0 ^_^
=A0 =A0 -----Original Message-----
=A0 =A0 From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com <ComputerFoolish@aol.com>
=A0 =A0 To: traveller@lists.ient.com <traveller@lists.ient.com>
=A0 =A0 Date: Saturday, February 17, 2001 2:26 PM
=A0 =A0 Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
=A0 =A0 Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Shaggy3D
Mental Note: I get irritable during late nights. No more late night=20
postings??
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Actually I'm the one who is having the shit bored out of me by someone w=
ho
posts, in HTML, inane little one or two line responses to every damn pos=
t on
the list.=A0 I suggest as respectfully as I can, in return to this comme=
nt--
that you find a life.
Kiri=A0 ^_^
=A0 =A0 -----Original Message-----
=A0 =A0 From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com &lt;ComputerFoolish@aol.com&gt;
=A0 =A0 To: traveller@lists.ient.com &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com&gt;
=A0 =A0 Date: Saturday, February 17, 2001 2:26 PM
=A0 =A0 Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
=A0 =A0 Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?=
????
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Shaggy3D
&nbsp;&nbsp;Mental Note: I get irritable during late nights. No more la=
te night=20
postings??
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:24:15 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
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From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
<original message>
=A0 =A0=A0 "Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????=
"
<Kurt's response>
=A0 =A0=A0 "Yep, now I'm certain, Clif has returned."
=A0 =A0=A0 "I'm very new here, bit please don't tell me that the TML has a t=
roll.=A0=20
Please!??!"
=A0 =A0=A0 Larsen
Sorry guy. I'm not Cliff.
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From: Kurt Feltenberger &lt;kurt@blazenet.net&gt;
&lt;original message&gt;
=A0 =A0=A0 "Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us alre=
ady?????"
&lt;Kurt's response&gt;
=A0 =A0=A0 "Yep, now I'm certain, Clif has returned."
=A0 =A0=A0 "I'm very new here, bit please don't tell me that the TML has=
a troll.=A0=20
Please!??!"
=A0 =A0=A0 Larsen
&nbsp;&nbsp;Sorry guy. I'm not Cliff.
- --part1_98.10c5fd33.27c3678f_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:26:11 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nasty cargo bays...
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"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote
> On 17 Feb 2001, at 22:53, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
>=20
> > ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> > >=A0 Ok,what the heck is a groat?? LOL.
> >=20
> > A groat is an alien animal which, due to some amazing coincidence, is
> > remarkably similiar to a goat or sheep...
>=20
> Or it's an old English silver coin of four pence value.
Or it's a grain based food product, often made of buckwheat,
most commonly consumed as a breakfast cereal.
hhhmmm......what would the overhead be on a bulk shipment of that??=20
Interesting.
Shaggy3D
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"Rupert Boleyn" &lt;rbole=
yn@paradise.net.nz&gt; wrote
&gt; On 17 Feb 2001, at 22:53, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
&gt;=20
&gt; &gt; ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
&gt; &gt; &gt;=A0 Ok,what the heck is a groat?? LOL.
&gt; &gt;=20
&gt; &gt; A groat is an alien animal which, due to some amazing coincide=
nce, is
&gt; &gt; remarkably similiar to a goat or sheep...
&gt;=20
&gt; Or it's an old English silver coin of four pence value.
Or it's a grain based food product, often made of buckwheat,
most commonly consumed as a breakfast cereal.
&nbsp;&nbsp;hhhmmm......what would the overhead be on a bulk shipment o=
f that??=20
Interesting.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D</F=
ONT>
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:21:50 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: You can't have it (was Near C- Rocks! (TM))
> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 20:38:49 +1300
> From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
> Subject: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
>
> Gregory Carl Kettler wrote :
<snip>
> Hmm......., I hereby claim the name Near-C for future use either as a
> strategic weapons company or an industrial rock band. If there's not
already
> a trade-mark on the phrase
> "Near-C Rocks!" (including the apostrophe)
"near-c rocks" is the name of a vargr glam-punk band currently headlining
the
marchespalooza tour. (Other notable bands included are the up and comming
dog-pop band "VOUS" {Vargr Of Unusual Style} and the folk trio "Female aslan
in sensible shoes {FAISS to their fans}) near-c rocks is currently
supporting
their hit holocube "Sixth Frontier War" (released by the Spinward Marches
Entertainment Group on the Outworld Coalition label) and seem poised to gain
the affection of a whole generation of the March's youth.
Since I haven't previously divulged the existence of the Spinward Marches
Entertainment Group I suppose some more background is in order. This
LIC was founded fairly recently (within the last hundred years) to produce
and disseminate entertainment of all forms to the teeming billions of the
Marches. While not all ventures have been successfull SMEG has had
a remarkable string of successes. Indeed the firm has made so much
money that it has been able to aquire many smaller concerns in fields
far removed from the initial charter of the corporation among them
mining and manufacturing conglomerates and the intriguing investment
firm Occult Arbitrage.
Many of the business dealings of SMEG are extra Imperial including
among other assets the newly aquired Orcrist Firearms Foundry (OFF)
in the Sword Worlds and extensive cultural links in Vargr and Zhodani
space. As of this precis exact ownership of the Spinward Marches
Entertainment Group are unknown although several minor Counts
are on the board of directors.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:30:11 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:52:29 +1100
> From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
> Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
<snip>
> Look at the fuel requirements for fusion plants running various
> incarnations of thrusters (at least MT and GT varieties will work, I
> don't have other references handy to compare). You could get fuel out
> 2 parsecs by sublight barge in just 10 or so years, with very little
> of the original mass consumed.
Sorry I was suffering from an accute attack of TNE. I'm better now
thanks for asking
> Including deceleration. Final cost of
> refined fuel at deep space depot: 145 Cr/dton in bulk, including all
> the usual overheads I figure into these sorts of computations.
>
> As I've said before and will say again -- jump drives are massively
> more expensive than maneuver drives. If you don't need the speed,
> don't pay the premium.
At any interstellar distance the much greater number of trips that the
jump capable ship can perform more than offsets the added costs
of the jump drive (I'll have to trot out High Guard and see if I can
figure out what the break-even distance is.)
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:40:43 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
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On 17 Feb 2001, at 17:24, ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set to
delete.
Ok, let me try to explain my point of view, if I may. Fine, you people
want to explain all the intricacies (did I spell that right?) of courts and
titles and all. That's fine. But what would happen to a player who just
wanted to know the correct way of addressing someone if he wasn't interested
in all the details. It's simple, he would fall asleep during the long, drawn
out, boring letters that you wrote. Not to mention it would take something
away from the game.
What if the players don't actually know how to address the local nobles??
What if the local nobles do things slightly different than the courts
norms??That in itself could lead to a mini adventure within the gane when the
local noble brings charges against a player for some minor but local insult.
Then I have to explain all those court preceedings to my players?? And they
fall asleep.
t's not that I don't like all the extra detail that ya'll write about. I
just don't necessarily need it in a game and neither does a player. It tends
to bog the game down and as we all know, when that happens players get bored.
Why not just keep it simple?? Don't tell me how to address the local
noble at all times. Just tell me how to address him/her at THIS time. Then,
keep the game going. Don't explain all the court politics to me, just tell me
whats going on real quick and what I can as a player, dop about it. Simple.
Love me or hate me,
Shaggy3D
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On 17 Feb 2001, at 17:24, ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
&gt; Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????
For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set to
delete.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Ok, let me try to explain my point of view, if I may. Fine, you people
want to explain all the intricacies (did I spell that right?) of courts and
titles and all. That's fine. But what would happen to a player who just
wanted to know the correct way of addressing someone if he wasn't interested
in all the details. It's simple, he would fall asleep during the long, drawn
out, boring letters that you wrote. Not to mention it would take something
away from the game.
&nbsp;&nbsp;What if the players don't actually know how to address the local nobles??
What if the local nobles do things slightly different than the courts
norms??That in itself could lead to a mini adventure within the gane when the
local noble brings charges against a player for some minor but local insult.
Then I have to explain all those court preceedings to my players?? And they
fall asleep.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;t's not that I don't like all the extra detail that ya'll write about. I
just don't necessarily need it in a game and neither does a player. It tends
to bog the game down and as we all know, when that happens players get bored.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Why not just keep it simple?? Don't tell me how to address the local
noble at all times. Just tell me how to address him/her at THIS time. Then,
keep the game going. Don't explain all the court politics to me, just tell me
whats going on real quick and what I can as a player, dop about it. Simple.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Love me or hate me,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:45:58 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
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> On 17 Feb 2001, at 17:24, ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
>
> For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set to
delete.
>
>
This is my third. <Ker-Plonk!>
Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor
Next year, at Burning Man!
Insult Alert! Insult Alert!! I see..............so you'd rather delete
and ignore me than try to figure out what I mean?? I hadn't realized there
were so many closed-minded people playing Traveller these days. ::shrugs:: Or
maybe the reason Traveller has gone bottom up is because of people like you
and some others who feel the need to explain every little detail and nuance
of a game to death to the point that it becomes boring and uninteresting to
players. If you feel the need to delete me. So be it. It will only prove my
point even further. TY.
Love me or hate me,
I'm here to stay.
Shaggy3D
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&gt; On 17 Feb 2001, at 17:24, ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????
&gt;
&gt; For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set to
delete.
&gt;
&gt;
This is my third. &lt;Ker-Plonk!&gt;
Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor
Next year, at Burning Man!
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Insult Alert! Insult Alert!! I see..............so you'd rather delete
and ignore me than try to figure out what I mean?? I hadn't realized there
were so many closed-minded people playing Traveller these days. ::shrugs:: Or
maybe the reason Traveller has gone bottom up is because of people like you
and some others who feel the need to explain every little detail and nuance
of a game to death to the point that it becomes boring and uninteresting to
players. If you feel the need to delete me. So be it. It will only prove my
point even further. TY.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Love me or hate me,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I'm here to stay.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_6f.115ea7b4.27c36ca6_boundary--
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3707
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3708
Date: | 2/19/01 11:22:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 20 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3708
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Imperial Civil Courts
Re: A Lucky Find?
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: [TML] What's in a name? (was: Deep Space Jumps)
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Source Code request?
Re: A Lucky Find?
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Indefinite life span
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:49:02 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts
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>Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
>
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 Shaggy3D
First of all, please send stuff as flat text. Some of us prefer to avoid=20
using malware to read email.
Secondly, if it bores you, just go to the next post.
Thirdly, Imperial Civil Courts can be close to the hearts of PCs.
For example, lets assume a merc unit has a contract that involves a=20
performance bonus if they take=20
the capital of the side that didnt hire them.
Lets assume that halfway through the campaign, the enemy moves the capital=20
from Nuevo Roma to=20
Nueva Ravenna.
The merc unit proceeds to take Neuvo Roma.
Do they get a performance bonus ?
Well, that depends.=20
If the hiring side refuses to pay them the bonus, they could go to court.
What do they have that the noble in charge of the case wants ? Well, see,=20
maybe she needs a little=20
task done, and, well, you know how it all works.
Ian Whitchurch
hhhmmm.......interesting point. ::looks around:: Geez,this hole I'm in=20
seems a bit deeper than before.
Shaggy3D
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&gt;Are you people done w=
ith boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????
&gt;
&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 Shaggy3D
First of all, please send stuff as flat text. Some of us prefer to avoid=
=20
using malware to read email.
Secondly, if it bores you, just go to the next post.
Thirdly, Imperial Civil Courts can be close to the hearts of PCs.
For example, lets assume a merc unit has a contract that involves a=20
performance bonus if they take=20
the capital of the side that didnt hire them.
Lets assume that halfway through the campaign, the enemy moves the capit=
al=20
from Nuevo Roma to=20
Nueva Ravenna.
The merc unit proceeds to take Neuvo Roma.
Do they get a performance bonus ?
Well, that depends.=20
If the hiring side refuses to pay them the bonus, they could go to court=
.
What do they have that the noble in charge of the case wants ? Well, see=
,=20
maybe she needs a little=20
task done, and, well, you know how it all works.
Ian Whitchurch
&nbsp;&nbsp;hhhmmm.......interesting point. ::looks around:: Geez,this=20=
hole I'm in=20
seems a bit deeper than before.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:51:40 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?
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Just went into my FLGS in Canberra, and picked up a copy of Far Trader,
which appears to have been personally signed by Steve Jackson (?!) Could any
of TGOOs comment on the likelihood of this?
On another matter:
=A0 =A0 OGTHROD AI'F
=A0 =A0 GEB'L - EE'H
=A0 =A0 YOG-SOTHOTH
=A0 =A0 'NGAH'NG AI'Y
=A0 =A0 ZHRO!
If any keyboards get clogged with fine bluish-gray dust (does this count as
keyboard kill?=A0 literally?) then I shall fear the worst...
J.M.M.
=20
uuuummmmm........could someone explain to me what an ancient Cthulhu=20
religion has to do with Traveller?? Isn't that more specific to D&D?? I=20
know I'm new to the list so could someone explain it to me?? Please??
Shaggy3D
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Just went into my FLGS in Canberra, and picked up a copy of Far Trader,
which appears to have been personally signed by Steve Jackson (?!) Could=
any
of TGOOs comment on the likelihood of this?
On another matter:
=A0 =A0 OGTHROD AI'F
=A0 =A0 GEB'L - EE'H
=A0 =A0 YOG-SOTHOTH
=A0 =A0 'NGAH'NG AI'Y
=A0 =A0 ZHRO!
If any keyboards get clogged with fine bluish-gray dust (does this count=
as
keyboard kill?=A0 literally?) then I shall fear the worst...
J.M.M.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;uuuummmmm........could someone explain to me what an ancien=
t Cthulhu=20
religion has to do with Traveller?? &nbsp;&nbsp;Isn't that more specific=
to D&amp;D?? &nbsp;I=20
know I'm new to the list so could someone explain it to me?? Please??
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:54:03 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
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Kurt wrote:
>Yep, now I'm certain, Clif has returned.
=A0 =A0 Although Clif certainly had many faults, he was not quite as absurd=20=
as=20
this
silly bastard. Clif would present an idea and then get really pissed when
other listmembers would shoot it through with holes. This fellow seems
barely capable of generating a coherent sentence, let alone coming up with
an idea worthy of having holes shot through it.
Oh, but it's ok for YOU to be insultive, right?? BTW, who is this Cliff=20
person??
Shaggy3D
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Kurt wrote:
&gt;Yep, now I'm certain, Clif has returned.
=A0 =A0 Although Clif certainly had many faults, he was not quite as abs=
urd as=20
this
silly bastard. Clif would present an idea and then get really pissed whe=
n
other listmembers would shoot it through with holes. This fellow seems
barely capable of generating a coherent sentence, let alone coming up wi=
th
an idea worthy of having holes shot through it.
&nbsp;&nbsp;Oh, but it's ok for YOU to be insultive, right?? BTW, who i=
s this Cliff=20
person??
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_43.10e7b8b2.27c36e8b_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:02:00 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
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> Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
>
> For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set
to delete.
>
Oh, if only Juno allowed for killfiles.
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
hhmmmmm........me thinks me hole hath gotten deeper still.
Shaggy3D
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&gt; Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????
&gt;
&gt; For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set
to delete.
&gt;
Oh, if only Juno allowed for killfiles.
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;hhmmmmm........me thinks me hole hath gotten deeper still.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:03:35 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
- --part1_65.1019788c.27c370c7_boundary
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I hate to reply with a "Me too" message... but, yeah, same here.
On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:28:37 -0800 "Kiri Aradia Morgan"
<tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
> Actually I'm the one who is having the shit bored out of me by=20
> someone who
> posts, in HTML, inane little one or two line responses to every damn=20
> post on
> the list.=A0 I suggest as respectfully as I can, in return to this=20
> comment--
> that you find a life.
>=20
> Kiri=A0 ^_^
>=A0 =A0=A0 -----Original Message-----
>=A0 =A0=A0 From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com <ComputerFoolish@aol.com>
>=A0 =A0=A0 To: traveller@lists.ient.com <traveller@lists.ient.com>
>=A0 =A0=A0 Date: Saturday, February 17, 2001 2:26 PM
>=A0 =A0=A0 Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
>=20
>=20
>=A0 =A0=A0 Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
>=20
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 Shaggy3D
uuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhh.........................me too???
Shaggy3D
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I hate to reply with a "Me too" message... but, yeah, same here.
On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:28:37 -0800 "Kiri Aradia Morgan"
&lt;tiamat@tsoft.com&gt; writes:
&gt; Actually I'm the one who is having the shit bored out of me by=20
&gt; someone who
&gt; posts, in HTML, inane little one or two line responses to every dam=
n=20
&gt; post on
&gt; the list.=A0 I suggest as respectfully as I can, in return to this=20
&gt; comment--
&gt; that you find a life.
&gt;=20
&gt; Kiri=A0 ^_^
&gt;=A0 =A0=A0 -----Original Message-----
&gt;=A0 =A0=A0 From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com &lt;ComputerFoolish@aol.com=
&gt;
&gt;=A0 =A0=A0 To: traveller@lists.ient.com &lt;traveller@lists.ient.com=
&gt;
&gt;=A0 =A0=A0 Date: Saturday, February 17, 2001 2:26 PM
&gt;=A0 =A0=A0 Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
&gt;=20
&gt;=20
&gt;=A0 =A0=A0 Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us a=
lready?????
&gt;=20
&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=20=
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=A0 Shaggy3D
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;uuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhhhh.........................me too??=
?
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:06:17 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: [TML] What's in a name? (was: Deep Space Jumps)
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Day 4:=A0 Buxom Blonde Pirate departs in her new ship with her
new Pirate Crew.
bloo
ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
>=A0=A0 Day 1 :: I'm a pirate captain and my wife calls me Schmoopy in
> public.
>=A0=A0 Day 2 :: There's a malfunction in an airlock and said wife dies a
> horrible
> deep space death.
>=A0=A0 Day 3 :: We dock and I pay a visit to that buxom blonde in the
> starport
> bar.
::loud boisterous applause for a very good response::
Shaggy3D
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Day 4:=A0 Buxom Blonde Pirate departs in her new ship with her
new Pirate Crew.
bloo
ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
&gt;=A0=A0 Day 1 :: I'm a pirate captain and my wife calls me Schmoopy i=
n
&gt; public.
&gt;=A0=A0 Day 2 :: There's a malfunction in an airlock and said wife di=
es a
&gt; horrible
&gt; deep space death.
&gt;=A0=A0 Day 3 :: We dock and I pay a visit to that buxom blonde in th=
e
&gt; starport
&gt; bar.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;::loud boisterous applause for a ve=
ry good response::
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_4f.7a70a63.27c37169_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:08:46 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
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Score:
TML Legal Dream Team: 1
Shaggy3D: 0
bloo
Check the scoreboard again. I think I'm actually down by about 7 points
now.
Better they hang me than an innocent man.
Shaggy3D
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Score:
TML Legal Dream Team: 1
Shaggy3D: 0
bloo
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Check the scoreboard again. I think I'm actually down by about 7 points
now.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Better they hang me than an innocent man.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_34.111a046c.27c371fe_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:10:28 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Source Code request?
Thing wrote:
> C code would be great. I mainly do windows based coding Visual Basic &
> Visual C/C++. I can handle the clipping and the actual platform specific
> drawing routines. What I am mainly looking for is how to figure out where
> the vertices of the hexagons are on a X,Y coordinate system for the line
> drawing routines. I tried to do some calculating based on the angles, but
> something in my math or my measurements are off as the hexagons come out
> distorted.
Oh, OK. The following routine is clipped out and somewhat modified
from my own hex-grid drawing program. It takes the (X,Y) coordinates
of the top left and bottom right points of a rectangular region, and
returns a pointer to an array of line segments. The origin of the
coordinate system is at the top-left corner of a hexagon, and the
hexagon centres are unit distance apart.
The returned array includes all segments that *may* be partially
within the region -- it usually returns a few more, hence the need for
clipping. You will need to scale and offset the coordinates to
whatever you use for on-screen display or printing. Remember to free
the array after use.
The function has been hacked to return segments instead of doing the
drawing itself, and (since you're using Traveller) rearranged so that
the hexes form columns like the sector maps, rather than rows.
struct point {
double x, y;
};
struct segment {
struct point p1, p2;
};
struct drawlist {
int size;
int used;
struct segment * lines;
};
void
draw_vertex (double x, double y, struct drawlist * draw);
int hex_grid (struct point *tl, struct point *br, struct drawlist * draw)
{
double i, j;
double x, y;
double min_x, min_y;
double dx, dy;
int nx, ny, numlines;
dx = sqrt(3);
dy = 1.0;
if (br->x <= tl->x || br->y <= tl->y) return 0;
nx = floor ((br->x - tl->x) / dx) + 2;
ny = floor ((br->y - tl->y) / dy) + 4;
numlines = 6 * nx * ny;
if (draw->size > 0 && draw->lines != NULL)
{
free (draw->lines);
draw->lines = NULL;
draw->size = 0;
}
draw->lines = (struct segment *) calloc (numlines, sizeof(struct segment));
draw->size = numlines;
draw->used = 0;
if (draw->lines == NULL) return -1;
min_x = dx * floor ((tl->x + dx/6) / dx);
min_y = floor (tl->y);
/* The grid can be tiled with pairs of vertices, shaped as follows:
\_
/ \_
/
*/
for (i = 0; i < nx; i++)
{
x = min_x + i*dx;
for (j = 0; j < ny; j++)
{
y = min_y + j;
draw_vertex (x, y, draw);
draw_vertex (x + dx/2, y + 0.5, draw);
}
}
return numlines;
}
void
draw_vertex (double x, double y, struct drawlist * draw)
/* Draws three lines meeting at the vertex of a hexagon */
{
draw->lines[draw->used].p1.x = x;
draw->lines[draw->used].p1.y = y;
draw->lines[draw->used].p2.x = x - sqrt(3)/6;
draw->lines[draw->used].p2.y = y - 0.5;
draw->used++;
draw->lines[draw->used].p1.x = x;
draw->lines[draw->used].p1.y = y;
draw->lines[draw->used].p2.x = x - sqrt(3)/6;
draw->lines[draw->used].p2.y = y + 0.5;
draw->used++;
draw->lines[draw->used].p1.x = x;
draw->lines[draw->used].p1.y = y;
draw->lines[draw->used].p2.x = x + sqrt(3)/3;
draw->lines[draw->used].p2.y = y;
draw->used++;
}
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:11:14 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?
- --part1_f2.7a5e58e.27c37292_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jeffrey Michael Malone wrote:
> If any keyboards get clogged with fine bluish-gray dust (does this
> count as keyboard kill?=A0 literally?) then I shall fear the worst...
My right control key is not working. It's stuck.
Should I be worried?
kO, tahw eht kceh si gniog no ereh???
D3yggahS
=20
- --part1_f2.7a5e58e.27c37292_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Jeffrey Michael Malone wr=
ote:
&gt; If any keyboards get clogged with fine bluish-gray dust (does this
&gt; count as keyboard kill?=A0 literally?) then I shall fear the worst.=
..
My right control key is not working. It's stuck.
Should I be worried?
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;kO, tahw eht kceh si gniog no ereh???
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;D3yggahS
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
- --part1_f2.7a5e58e.27c37292_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:13:26 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
- --part1_46.10d74049.27c37316_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> I'm very new here, bit please don't tell me that the TML has a
> troll. Please!??!
Not normally. The best method of dealing with this... person would be to
set up a filter to delete all mail from him (put him in the killfile).
If you need help with this, drop me a private mail and I'll gladly help
you. I'm killfiling him right now.
Geez, talk about your bad starts.
Have I really upset people THAT much????
Would an apology help?????
Shaggy3D
- --part1_46.10d74049.27c37316_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
&gt; I'm very new here, bit please don't tell me that the TML has a
&gt; troll. Please!??!
Not normally. The best method of dealing with this... person would be to
set up a filter to delete all mail from him (put him in the killfile).
If you need help with this, drop me a private mail and I'll gladly help
you. I'm killfiling him right now.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Geez, talk about your bad starts.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Have I really upset people THAT much????
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Would an apology help?????
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_46.10d74049.27c37316_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:20:13 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Indefinite life span
- --part1_a.9111351.27c374ad_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
If aging was cured, then the average life expectancy (before you were killed
in an accident or caught a deadly disease) would be around 1800 years.
Food for thought,
Rodge
So basically what you're saying is that this list has another 1,763 years
of hating me left to go?? ZOINKS!!!
Shaggy3D
- --part1_a.9111351.27c374ad_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
If aging was cured, then the average life expectancy (before you were killed
in an accident or caught a deadly disease) would be around 1800 years.
Food for thought,
Rodge
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;So basically what you're saying is that this list has another 1,763 years
of hating me left to go?? &nbsp;ZOINKS!!!
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_a.9111351.27c374ad_boundary--
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3708
***********************************
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From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)
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Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3708
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Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3709
Date: | 2/20/01 12:42:31 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 20 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3709
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: TGOOs
Re: Source Code request?
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Imperial Civil Courts
Re: giving too much credit
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Interesting spots to visit
Re: Ship habitability
Re: Shaggy3d
Re: Going Offlist and Princess Bride
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:22:05 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: TGOOs
- --part1_56.777e982.27c3751d_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:21:33 -0500 (EST), GDWGAMES@aol.com (Loren Wiseman,
yes, _that_ Loren Wiseman) wrote:
>When I first subscribed, I lurked for a while, and most of the list was=20
taken=20
>up with the debate over whether or not I should be allowed to subscribe.
<grin> I remember that!=A0 I think we've grown up a bit since then...
When I subscribed, it was under a different address (@execnet.com), I got
my mail through a BBS rather than POPing it, the TML was at engrg.uwo.ca,
and I don't recall seeing bangpaths for addresses.
OTOH, there is no professionally-published Traveller material over my
signature.=A0 I guess that makes me merely a TLOO (...lesser...).
So I guess that makes me the next human in line to be sacrificed. ::GULP:=
:
Shaggy3D
- --part1_56.777e982.27c3751d_boundary
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On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:21:33 -0500 (EST), GDWGAMES@aol.com (Loren Wisema=
n,
yes, _that_ Loren Wiseman) wrote:
&gt;When I first subscribed, I lurked for a while, and most of the list=20=
was=20
taken=20
&gt;up with the debate over whether or not I should be allowed to subscr=
ibe.
&lt;grin&gt; I remember that!=A0 I think we've grown up a bit since then=
...
When I subscribed, it was under a different address (@execnet.com), I go=
t
my mail through a BBS rather than POPing it, the TML was at engrg.uwo.ca=
,
and I don't recall seeing bangpaths for addresses.
OTOH, there is no professionally-published Traveller material over my
signature.=A0 I guess that makes me merely a TLOO (...lesser...).
&nbsp;&nbsp;So I guess that makes me the next human in line to be sacri=
ficed. ::GULP::
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_56.777e982.27c3751d_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:26:02 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Source Code request?
Timothy Little wrote:
> The function has been hacked to return segments instead of doing the
> drawing itself, and (since you're using Traveller) rearranged so that
> the hexes form columns like the sector maps, rather than rows.
[...]
Oops, this was meant to be a direct email, not spamming everyone on
the list with pages of C code. Sorry, I'll remember to press the
correct button next time.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:26:55 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
- --part1_95.7208686.27c3763f_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At 05:24 PM 2/17/2001 EST, you wrote:
>Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
Oh, *forgive* us.. hoe dare we discuss something not of interest to you
(whoever the hell you may be.. I've never seen this address until recently.)
After all, the TML isn't a list for the discussion of Traveller in all its
aspects, but a place where the talented among us entertain and write
campaigns for the clueless.=A0 God forbid we should get into an area of
esoterica that is directly useful to every single member of the list!
On that note I demand that everyone stop the thread on cold sleep, because
I'm not interested!=A0 So there!
Here's a free clue:=A0 If you don't like a topic, ignore it.=A0 If you reply=
to
a message, quote a few lines so the rest of us can figure out what you are
responding to, and don't have to play guess the context.=A0 And finally, if
you want somebody to write messages tailored to your desires I will be
*happy* to do it...
... once your check clears.
uuuuuhhhhhh......................ok. :;checks bank account::
Shaggy3D
- --part1_95.7208686.27c3763f_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
At 05:24 PM 2/17/2001 EST, you wrote:
&gt;Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????
Oh, *forgive* us.. hoe dare we discuss something not of interest to you
(whoever the hell you may be.. I've never seen this address until recent=
ly.)
After all, the TML isn't a list for the discussion of Traveller in all i=
ts
aspects, but a place where the talented among us entertain and write
campaigns for the clueless.=A0 God forbid we should get into an area of
esoterica that is directly useful to every single member of the list!
On that note I demand that everyone stop the thread on cold sleep, becau=
se
I'm not interested!=A0 So there!
Here's a free clue:=A0 If you don't like a topic, ignore it.=A0 If you r=
eply to
a message, quote a few lines so the rest of us can figure out what you a=
re
responding to, and don't have to play guess the context.=A0 And finally,=
if
you want somebody to write messages tailored to your desires I will be
*happy* to do it...
... once your check clears.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;uuuuuhhhhhh......................ok. &nbsp;&nbsp;:;ch=
ecks bank account::
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_95.7208686.27c3763f_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:36:51 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> "Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> > I'm very new here, bit please don't tell me that the TML has a
> > troll. Please!??!
> Not normally. The best method of dealing with this... person would be to
> set up a filter to delete all mail from him (put him in the killfile).
> If you need help with this, drop me a private mail and I'll gladly help
> you. I'm killfiling him right now.
> Geez, talk about your bad starts.
> Have I really upset people THAT much????
> Would an apology help?????
Yes, you have upset people that much. I have sent you two private emails
explaining why you upset people and what you could do to correct it.
I am against killfiling people on mailing lists, but you are very close to
the mark.
Apology would be the first thing that might start us not being annoyed
with you. It will not help very much.
The thing that could help is that you read the advice I sent you on email
and behaving. Also, please lessen your posts.
It would be good if you could just read the list for some time, maybe a
month or so, and try to understand how people behave themselves here.
Please do that.
This is also for your own benefit; it does not pay to annoy people and
not listen to them. It does you no good if everybody just ignores you,
while sometime into the future you might have something to say.
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:42:38 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts
- --part1_31.10b1dfd0.27c379ee_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
> On 17 Feb 2001, at 17:24, ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
>
> For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set to
delete.
>
>
Perhaps it should be mentioned that this is a subscribed list and that the
poster can be banned from the list. Meanwhile a mail filter is the way to
go. Let me add that I too have never had to filter posters from this list,
with a single exception. I trust this "ComputerFool" will move on once we've
all ignored him.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
I don't ignore anyone. I've read ALL the mail since being on this list.
I've learned a lot it the past week. I appreciate it all, I really do. If you
choose to ignore me, so be it. Or perhaps you could try to get to know me
better. Then maybe you wouldn't be so quick to judge. I dunno. ::shrugs::
Shaggy3D
- --part1_31.10b1dfd0.27c379ee_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
&gt; On 17 Feb 2001, at 17:24, ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
&gt;
&gt; &gt; Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????
&gt;
&gt; For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set to
delete.
&gt;
&gt;
Perhaps it should be mentioned that this is a subscribed list and that the
poster can be banned from the list. Meanwhile a mail filter is the way to
go. Let me add that I too have never had to filter posters from this list,
with a single exception. I trust this "ComputerFool" will move on once we've
all ignored him.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
&nbsp;&nbsp;I don't ignore anyone. I've read ALL the mail since being on this list.
I've learned a lot it the past week. I appreciate it all, I really do. If you
choose to ignore me, so be it. Or perhaps you could try to get to know me
better. Then maybe you wouldn't be so quick to judge. I dunno. ::shrugs::
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_31.10b1dfd0.27c379ee_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:58:33 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: giving too much credit
- --part1_ad.720f310.27c37da9_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net> puts out into the Ether:
> > In mail you write:
> >=A0 =A0 Oh yea,that's what I want to read, science fiction written in the=
50's
> > and 60's. Oh yeah, I gotta have those books! NOT!!
>
>Troll: (-1)
Trolls are usually more clever.=A0 This doesn't even reach the level of well=
=20
written chat script.
Looks more like natural ability just shining through...
Ok, I definitely have NOT made a good first impression here have I?? Is i=
t=20
possible to go out and come back in to try again?? Then again, maybe not.=20
Tell ya what, I'll just shut up for a while. Ok??
=20
Shaggy3D
- --part1_ad.720f310.27c37da9_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Timothy Little &lt;tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net&gt; puts out into=20=
the Ether:
&gt; &gt; In mail you write:
&gt; &gt;=A0 =A0 Oh yea,that's what I want to read, science fiction writ=
ten in the 50's
&gt; &gt; and 60's. Oh yeah, I gotta have those books! NOT!!
&gt;
&gt;Troll: (-1)
Trolls are usually more clever.=A0 This doesn't even reach the level of=20=
well=20
written chat script.
Looks more like natural ability just shining through...
&nbsp;&nbsp;Ok, I definitely have NOT made a good first impression here=
have I?? Is it=20
possible to go out and come back in to try again?? Then again, maybe not=
.=20
Tell ya what, I'll just shut up for a while. Ok??
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_ad.720f310.27c37da9_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:10:44 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
DaveShayne wrote:
> > As I've said before and will say again -- jump drives are massively
> > more expensive than maneuver drives. If you don't need the speed,
> > don't pay the premium.
>
> At any interstellar distance the much greater number of trips that the
> jump capable ship can perform more than offsets the added costs
> of the jump drive (I'll have to trot out High Guard and see if I can
> figure out what the break-even distance is.)
There isn't really a fixed break-even distance -- it all depends upon
how much time you can take. Each doubling of time divides the amount
of thrust required by 4 (even more for near-c speeds). So the cost of
thrusters over time can be made arbitrarily low.
However, thrusters can't go beyond the speed of light if relativity
holds.
Hmm - now that's an interesting thought. What if relativity *doesn't*
hold in the Traveller universe, and thrusters can accelerate beyond c?
Thrusters *are* based on technology just as magical as the jump
drives, after all. Does it actually state anywhere that thrusters
can't accelerate a spaceship beyond c?
It would take even a 6G thruster of this type 90 weeks to travel 6
parsecs, so it's hardly a major threat to jump drives as a basis for
communication and passenger transport. However, they might be used in
transporting huge amounts of bulk freight over large distances.
Automated, I expect. Maybe with a crewmember or two in cold sleep to
handle an emergency.
A low-thrust ship might take 20 years to go 2 parsecs -- but the whole
ship costs only 200 Cr/ton of cargo, and running costs are minimal.
We already know that rates of return are very low in the 3I, so maybe
it would even be plausible to have such high latency. We know
terraforming has been done, and that must have even longer timespans
before returns start coming in.
Pity I've already determined that relativity holds in my Traveller
universe except for jump drives -- I kind of like the idea of "slow
barges" carrying huge amounts of low-value stuff.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:30:05 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 22:04:27 -0600
> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: Democracy Now!
>
> All this take of legal systems and constitutions
> leads me back to a setting-shaking event I want
> to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it myself:
>
> A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.
> With a goal to create a Federal Republic type
> system. Maybe it's Yanks in Space but so what!
> There are ways to do it without following the
> American model.
>
> I can dream can't I. :-P
>
> bloo
Tsk, tsk, tsk.
bloo, bloo, bloo.
Don't you know the only historically vallid government
for the Imperium is the scientific planned political economy.
It is time, tovariches, to proclaim the truth of the interstellar
proletariat revolution! Long live the United Soviet Socialist Planets!
All power to the Soviets! Down with Tsarist Imperialism!
(At this point you must imagine the national anthem of the USSR*
begining to swell as the party apparatchiks march in lock step on
the palace.
*I can't find it at the moment but I've got a tape from the eighties
with national anthems from quite a few countries. The "Hymn to
the Soviet Union" (not sure if that's teh exact title) is a very moving
piece of music.
David (leader of the Nth international congress) Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:13:53 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:40:43 EST
> From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
> Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
<snip>
> Why not just keep it simple?? Don't tell me how to address the local
> noble at all times. Just tell me how to address him/her at THIS time.
Then,
> keep the game going. Don't explain all the court politics to me, just tell
me
> whats going on real quick and what I can as a player, dop about it.
Simple.
This list is primarily a referee's resource. We come to this forum to bat
around ideas on how certain aspects of the setting work in practice, what
kinds of things are possible given the rulesets and the technological
assumptions of the game, and to devise ever more evil tortures - excuse
me - adventures for our players. In my opinion the more detail in these
discussions the better. (And in the words of Mrs. Sloakum(sp?) "I am
unanimous in this.") Will the players have to hear about all the details
of quasi-co-qualified trimogeniture? no. But having an understanding
of the rules behind a "third child inherits barring gross incompetence"
form of inheritance will allow the referee to present this situation to
the players in the level of detail needed by the players to get the
proper suspension of disbelief. This list is the best place to toss these
ideas around and get them (reasonably) worked out before the players
get a chance to tear them apart in the game.
Should you not have an interest in the intricacies being discussed in
some threads merely ignore them. That's what I do.
Oh and on a side note. Please be so kind as to disable HTML in your
mailer. MIME posts become almost unreadable in the digest as well
as roughly tripling the length of the post. I gather from your Addy that
you may be unfortunate enough to have AOL 6.0 running on your
computer. I understand that earlier versions of the AOL software
are much less obnoxious about the Mime stuff and might be an
acceptable alternate.
>
> Love me or hate me,
Am I allowed an extreme feeling of ambivalence?
> Shaggy3D
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:21:09 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Interesting spots to visit
- --part1_a3.120cd06f.27c382f5_boundary
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Mark Urbin wrote
> Shaggy3D types out with at best, two fingers:
> > Between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv you say?? Man,I'm gonna buy my ticket
> > first thing tomorrow morning!! Oh yeah,I gotta see that,can't wait
> > ,oh yeah!!Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Yea right.=A0 Sheesh.
>
> This is an international mailing list with a lot of members in the high
> tech business.
> Tel Aviv is the home to a lot of high tech companies.=A0 There is a lot of
> business travel there, even with the occasional car bomb going off.
Just to prove the point, I was attending a wedding reception this Saturday
(for a pair of gamers, who started dating during a game of TNE, BTW) where a
friend of mine (another gamer) who had just flown in from Taiwan for the
wedding was talking about how damn difficult it was to get back into Israel
once you'd been to the Lebanon...
Frankie
A longer, detailed explanation of my smartmouthed comment: I'm a blue=20
collar worker who lives in the so-called "projects" and drives a beater back=
=20
and forth to work to pay the bills. I can't afford a ticket overseas let=20
alone to the next state. i play Traveller as a game of adventure,not as a wa=
y=20
of exchanging detailed information except where necessary.=20
Ok, so I'm not a high-tech freak, does that make me the "troll" of the=20
TML?? I have straight forward opinions about things and i tend to forget I'm=
=20
not as smart as most people. Yes, i'm big enough to admit that. I shall=20
attempt to refrain from further smart-mouthed comments in the future. As for=
=20
the comment I made earlier. Let it stand.=20
BTW, yes I type with two fingers. LOL.
=20
Shaggy3D
- --part1_a3.120cd06f.27c382f5_boundary
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Mark Urbin wrote
&gt; Shaggy3D types out with at best, two fingers:
&gt; &gt; Between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv you say?? Man,I'm gonna buy my=20=
ticket
&gt; &gt; first thing tomorrow morning!! Oh yeah,I gotta see that,can't=20=
wait
&gt; &gt; ,oh yeah!!Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Yea right.=A0 Sheesh.
&gt;
&gt; This is an international mailing list with a lot of members in the=20=
high
&gt; tech business.
&gt; Tel Aviv is the home to a lot of high tech companies.=A0 There is a=
lot of
&gt; business travel there, even with the occasional car bomb going off.
Just to prove the point, I was attending a wedding reception this Saturd=
ay
(for a pair of gamers, who started dating during a game of TNE, BTW) whe=
re a
friend of mine (another gamer) who had just flown in from Taiwan for the
wedding was talking about how damn difficult it was to get back into Isr=
ael
once you'd been to the Lebanon...
Frankie
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;A longer, detailed explanation of my smar=
tmouthed comment: I'm a blue=20
collar worker who lives in the so-called "projects" and drives a beater=20=
back=20
and forth to work to pay the bills. I can't afford a ticket overseas let=
=20
alone to the next state. i play Traveller as a game of adventure,not as=20=
a way=20
of exchanging detailed information except where necessary.=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Ok, so I'm not a high-tech freak, does that make me t=
he "troll" of the=20
TML?? I have straight forward opinions about things and i tend to forget=
I'm=20
not as smart as most people. Yes, i'm big enough to admit that. I shall=20
attempt to refrain from further smart-mouthed comments in the future. As=
for=20
the comment I made earlier. Let it stand.=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;BTW, yes I type with two fingers. LOL.
=20
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:35:56 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ship habitability
- --part1_40.7a7e0f6.27c3866c_boundary
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=A0 I don't think that robots=20
> would fit the=20
> bill either.
>=20
>=20
>=A0 =A0 =A0 Larsen
>
Certainly not! Two very good reasons:
1) Maintaining clean quarters is a good discipline exercise
2) You'd need storage space to keep the robot in.
Dean
Yes, but what about a compact robot designed for the specific task of=20
keeping the quarters clean leaving the crew to deal with their duties on a=20
full time basis. Such as when the crew is involved in a war and on full time=
=20
alert status?? Wouldn't that make the use of a robot onboard a plausible=20
idea??
Shaggy3D
- --part1_40.7a7e0f6.27c3866c_boundary
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=A0 I don't think that robots=20
&gt; would fit the=20
&gt; bill either.
&gt;=20
&gt;=20
&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 Larsen
&gt;
Certainly not! Two very good reasons:
1) Maintaining clean quarters is a good discipline exercise
2) You'd need storage space to keep the robot in.
Dean
&nbsp;&nbsp;Yes, but what about a compact robot designed for the specif=
ic task of=20
keeping the quarters clean leaving the crew to deal with their duties on=
a=20
full time basis. Such as when the crew is involved in a war and on full=20=
time=20
alert status?? Wouldn't that make the use of a robot onboard a plausible=
=20
idea??
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_40.7a7e0f6.27c3866c_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:37:49 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shaggy3d
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Could it be possible for the DNA remaining in a pair of trainers/sneakers
(after Ditzie has, ahem, 'spoken to' the wearer) to be reincarnated?
I'm certainly not a TGOO (or any other sort of GOO), but I think I may
almost be up to the level of GSR (or maybe just LSR).
Someone pass the Shantaks, please...
Jeff.
(ps Shaggy3d, please do not take offence at the above.)
None taken. Thank you.
Shaggy3D
- --part1_b3.7509fee.27c386dd_boundary
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Could it be possible for the DNA remaining in a pair of trainers/sneakers
(after Ditzie has, ahem, 'spoken to' the wearer) to be reincarnated?
I'm certainly not a TGOO (or any other sort of GOO), but I think I may
almost be up to the level of GSR (or maybe just LSR).
Someone pass the Shantaks, please...
Jeff.
(ps Shaggy3d, please do not take offence at the above.)
&nbsp;&nbsp;None taken. Thank you.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_b3.7509fee.27c386dd_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:40:11 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Going Offlist and Princess Bride
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Well folks, I'm off for four days of management training in the sunny Milton
Keynes. Because I don't want to blow up my exchange server, I'll be
unsubbing 'till Friday, so please feel free to talk about me beind my back
:)Dean
I bet you people thought I was gonna jump on this chance, huh?? LOL.
Take care Dean, see ya when ya get back.
Shaggy3D
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Well folks, I'm off for four days of management training in the sunny Milton
Keynes. Because I don't want to blow up my exchange server, I'll be
unsubbing 'till Friday, so please feel free to talk about me beind my back
:)Dean
&nbsp;&nbsp;I bet you people thought I was gonna jump on this chance, huh?? LOL.
&nbsp;&nbsp;Take care Dean, see ya when ya get back.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_f5.76a3725.27c3876b_boundary--
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3709
***********************************
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3710
Date: | 2/20/01 3:18:52 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 20 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3710
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re : Anti-aging multi-faceted (attn: Robert)...
Official Traveller Message Boards
RE: En Garde
Re: En Garde
Geophysical/Climate question
RE: Civility and Politeness
RE: Artillery falls from the sky...
RE: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Democracy Now!
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Democracy Now!
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Democracy Now!
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
Re: TGOOs
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:59:22 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Anti-aging multi-faceted (attn: Robert)...
Roger Sanger wrote :-
> But the "anagathic" I was referring to extends a species' maximum
> genetic lifespan.
What does this mean?
For example, the genes coding for globins are almost 300 million years old,
with minimal divergence in structure between vertebrate and invertebrate
phyla.
Does it refer to a prolongation of the fertile part of the life cycle?
The logical outcome measure for our putative drug is an increase in average
life expectancy, or a slowing or arrest of progression of age related
dysfunction as a surrogate marker.
> "The Aging Process" is a misnomer, as there are currently 8 known
> categories of aging processes:
This sounds like a sales pitch or a memorisation device.
Your list can be restated as follows :-
Aging is a process that affects all organ systems.
It is divided into two phases.
The first involves the growth and maturation phase from the foetal period to
early adulthood.
The second is characterised by an excess of cellular injury over repair, and
a decline in functional organ mass, and therefore reserve, with time.
Or :-
* Pathophysiology of Aging
i. Excess of cellular injury over repair.
* Mediated by (examples) :- free radicals, inappropriate inflammatory
responses.
* Characterised by (examples) :- protein cross-linking, lipofuscin (and
other substances) accumulation, atherosclerosis.
ii. Decrease in cell number and therefore functional organ mass.
* Mediated by intracellular clocks, neuroendocrine and environmental
factors.
* Characterised by decline in function and physiological reserve with
time.
The two categories are interdependent.
> Degenerative diseases (thousands of them, with the main ones being
> atheroschlerosis, inflamation, and various pathogens such as
> bacteria, fungus, viruses, etc.).
Inflammation appears to be a necessary prelude to repair in mammals. It is
not a degenerative disease, but a primary physiological process. Only when
repair is prevented is inflammation excessive or pathological.
Infectious diseases cause acute or chronic inflammation, depending on the
organism. The latter group could be regarded as causing 'degenerative
disease' ; it's a matter of semantics, but it is certainly not a medically
correct usage.
> As for telomeres, they have yet to show a direct cause/effect
> relationship between telomere length and the Hayflick Limit.
In other words, correlated with, not associated with, the aging process. I
should have been more explicit when I wrote :-
> Note that telomeres are only part of the problem (referring to an earlier
> post of yours).
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 03:48:54 -0500
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
Subject: Official Traveller Message Boards
Far Future Enterprises is pleased to announce the opening of the Official Traveller message boards! We launch these boards as a central location where Traveller fans can get together, meet other Traveller players, and interact directly with those involved in bringing you the Traveller universe! This is the place for official news and announcements, answers to your questions, a place where you can have a voice in the future of Traveller. Marc Miller, creator of Traveller will be a regular contributor to these boards, so you can get the scoop directly from the source himself, including information on the fabled Fifth edition of Traveller (aka T5)!
We look forward to seeing you there!
http://www.farfuture.net
(look for the message boards under Jump Points)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:55:19 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: En Garde
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :
> Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to allow for
> female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever Amber_ and
> _Desiree_. Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing the king
> even moreso, but both had their rewards.
>
> There was even allowance for enlisting in the army disguised as a man,
> although this involved certain risks also.
>
> LKW
>
> Also had rules for the Navy -- heavily influenced by Hornblower et al.
Is there any chance of these being made accesible anywhere ?
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:52:08 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: En Garde
On 19 Feb 2001, at 19:22, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to allow for
> female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever Amber_ and _Desiree_.
> Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing the king even moreso, but both
> had their rewards.
Ohhh Ohh Ohhh, see must have. I suppose that these have long since
disappeared into the great void of "might-have-been" (he says really really
hoping for an answer in the negative).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 04:04:21 -0500
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: Geophysical/Climate question
TML'ers, esp. the hard science folks...
What effect would very active vulcanism, with all the intendant releases of
sulfur dioxide, carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulfide,and most especially a large
and constant release of fine tephra have on a standard Nitrogen/Oxygen
atmosphere. I am especially interested in weather conditions. I realize,
coming from coal country as I do, that acid rain is one factor, but what
about the amount of precipitation increase due to suspended particulate
matter? Would there be an increase in atmospheric ionization? What about
global warming?Increased air instability? I realize that this is a lot, but
it's for a Landgrab...Any help would be appreciated...
Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:03:47 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness
James wrote:
>Though in my experience, the only reliable sub killers are submarines
>themselves....
Actually, the best sub-killer is a P3 Orion.
<grin>
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:05:58 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Artillery falls from the sky...
Douglas E. Berry wrote :
> At 12:38 PM 2/19/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >What is that they say on the c-130 gunships "Don't run away, you'll only
> >die tired"
>
> Ah, the AC-130 Spectre.. a plane most player characters would love.
Heck, even the old Spooky is fun for PCs
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 04:06:46 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: RE: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
I wrote:
>> Although Clif certainly had many faults, he was not quite as absurd
as
>>this silly bastard. Clif would present an idea and then get really pissed
when
>>other listmembers would shoot it through with holes. This fellow seems
>>barely capable of generating a coherent sentence, let alone coming up with
>>an idea worthy of having holes shot through it.
"ComputerFoolish (or "Shaggy 3D") wrote:
> Oh, but it's ok for YOU to be insultive, right?? BTW, who is this Cliff
>person??
Nice try, but if you'll notice, I never said anything about whether or not
I believe that being insulting -- or as you've put it, "insultive" -- is
"ok". Indeed, if you were to press me on the issue, I would have to admit,
rather pleasantly, that I have no problem, whatsoever, with someone
insulting someone else.
What I do have a problem with is someone who bursts in on a mailing list
and on his first day posts a number of inane, pointless and nonsensical one
or two line posts and in doing so offers absolutely no respect to the
posters of those messages. If you feel that I am giving you little respect,
it is true. Your posts made a very bad first impression on me. I will meet
you with the same respect that you give the others on this list -- many of
whom, in some fashion, I consider friends. I've known some of these people
for 4 or more years.
Think about it for a moment, Imagine that we are in the "real world": You
are discussing various things with people you respect. All of a sudden,
somebody comes stomping in. He turns to one of your friends and says, "Will
you shut the hell up, you're boring me!". Then he turns to another and says,
"What you're talking about has no value!" and so on. Think about how much
respect you'd show that jackass.
In this case, you are that jackass.
As I said, I will meet you with the same respect you're showing to others
on the list. If you feel that I'm disrespecting you, there is a quick and
easy way to rectify the situation: show some respect to other people.
Simple, eh?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:31:45 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Ship habitability
On 20 Feb 2001, at 1:49, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> There were no two-deck frigates. There couldn't be, since part of the
> definition of being a frigate was not having two decks.
Technically correct (though I thought the definition was no guns on the gun
deck, oxymoron though that is), but the monster frigates had their waists
decked over from poop to fo'c'sle and mounted a full second bank of guns
there, effectively making them two deckers. I believe the term double tier
was used.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:31:45 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 19 Feb 2001, at 7:31, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> Again, US Army has two levels at this rank.. the vanilla SM, and Command
> Sergeants Major. CSMs are the senior NCOs in battalion or larger formations.
> Sergeants Major are terrifying forces of nature. They really run the Army,
> although they let the officers pretend that they have something to do with it.
> Very tolerant ones will even call 2nd Lieutenants "sir" on occasion.
Odd, my RSM was in the habit of reserving "Sir" for =>3 pips, lesser
officers got referred to as "Mr", I believe Queens regs required no more of
him.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 04:43:29 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
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Thou SHALT NOT speak the name of the UNHOLY
here!
If you want me to be more specific, I will.
I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still
Emperor in the 1120s-1140s.=A0 Screw Virus!=A0 :-P
bloo
I must wholeheartedly agree with "bloo" on this one. But it makes for an=20
interesting campaign idea. What will things be like say 100 or 200 years fro=
m=20
TNE when the virus has run its course?? What would a campaign be like in tha=
t=20
future?? Some very interesting thoughts come to mind. Any comments from the=20
list on ideas??
Shaggy3D
- --part1_85.71ac430.27c39641_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thou SHALT NOT speak the=20=
name of the UNHOLY
here!
If you want me to be more specific, I will.
I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still
Emperor in the 1120s-1140s.=A0 Screw Virus!=A0 :-P
bloo
&nbsp;&nbsp;I must wholeheartedly agree with "bloo" on this one. But it=
makes for an=20
interesting campaign idea. What will things be like say 100 or 200 years=
from=20
TNE when the virus has run its course?? What would a campaign be like in=
that=20
future?? Some very interesting thoughts come to mind. Any comments from=20=
the=20
list on ideas??
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nb=
sp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&=
nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_85.71ac430.27c39641_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:52:06 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 19 Feb 2001, at 22:01, James Gilly / Alasdair MacIai wrote:
> At 03:34 PM 2/19/01 +0000, John Lambert wrote:
> >In the Army and the Air Force (spun off from the Army), both 1st and 2nd
> >Lieutenants are generally addressed as "Lieutenant".
>
> Same with a jig (LTjg) and an LT. A Lieutenant Commander and a Commander
> are both addressed as "Commander," and all warrant officers are called
> "Warrant."
Likewise both Corporals and Lance Corporals are called "Corporal". BTW in New
Zealand, England and IIRc Australia Lieutenant is pronounced "Leftenant". Thus
we don't have "Looie" as a nickname for a Lieutenant. Also we use the Indian
Army term "Subaltern", which means (here) any Junior Officer (2nd Lt., Lt.,
Captain), although it's not usually applied to Captains unless you want to lump
them in with the Lieutenants for some (usually insulting) reason. In these
ranks unless you stuff up you'll be automatically promoted every three (?)
years, but once you get to Captain promotion is by merit. There's some
resentment of this amongst JNCOs because all enlisted ranks advance by merit,
which often comes down to not pissing off you Platoon Sergeant (an appointment,
not rank), CSM and Platoon Commander (a young 2nd Lt., ot Lt.), and it's not
hard to get an 18 years old new Platton Commander down on your back by making
them look dumb.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:59:56 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
On 20 Feb 2001, at 5:10, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> >From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> "I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still Emperor in the
> 1120s-1140s. Screw Virus! :-P"
>
>
> Bloo,
> I'm with you, partner. Screw Virus! Who spiked the water cooler when they
> came up with that one!??!
> Here's a list for you; New Coke, the Edsel, and Virus.
> After the "Survival Margin" came out, a lady friend of mine actually
> had a "Strephon Lives" tee shirt made for me. A very kind thing to do.
> If T5's mileau hasn't been selected yet, that's where Mr. Miller should put
> it. Screw Virus and pass the antibiotic!
But Virus was sooo Kewl. And with it came FF&S.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:59:56 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 20 Feb 2001, at 3:50, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>The Army could use the same device to flesh out it's infantry ranks.
As I said before, here we're using it to keep technical specialties in, with
the predictable effect on infantry troop quality and morale. That the people
who do the most dying get payed the least hasn't been lost on our infantry.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:12:46 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 20 Feb 2001, at 22:31, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> On 19 Feb 2001, at 7:31, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
> > Again, US Army has two levels at this rank.. the vanilla SM, and Command
> > Sergeants Major. CSMs are the senior NCOs in battalion or larger formations.
>
> > Sergeants Major are terrifying forces of nature. They really run the Army,
> > although they let the officers pretend that they have something to do with it.
> > Very tolerant ones will even call 2nd Lieutenants "sir" on occasion.
>
> Odd, my RSM was in the habit of reserving "Sir" for =>3 pips, lesser
> officers got referred to as "Mr", I believe Queens regs required no more of him.
It's certainly correct to refer to a Lieutenant as "Mr. Dodds" in the third
person, but if you not at least a Sergeant Major I don't recommend saying it to
his face without permission. Most of the better ones preferred "Mr" from their
men in semi-formal and informal environments.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:27:42 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote
> Thou SHALT NOT speak the name of the UNHOLY
> here! Screw Virus! :-P
Do we get dinner and a movie first?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:12:04 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
hal@buffnet.net writes:
> That being the case? What causes a rebellion is a discontent with the
>way life is. It isn't just a discontent per se, but a realization that
>things can't be worse.
Or - if things are starting to get better, people realise that change
and improvement are possible, but the pace is too slow to satisfy them
so they take matters into their own hands.
The most dangerous moment for any oppressive government is when it
introduces limited reforms...
> I don't know if this is what you meant or not. I would suggest that you
>look at what worlds are actually democratic and see if they might be
>willing to finance a guerilla warfare effort on the sly. I can also see
>where the Zhodani might be willing to work with a few Imperials in the
>following manner...
<mode=devil's advocate>
Why would the Zhodani sympathise with democracy? They're a
totalitarian, hereditary oligarchy who even deny freedom of thought to
their hapless subjects!
</mode>
I *can* see the Zhos backing a rebellion and hoping it will _fail_,
but in the process tie up Imperial strength for decades and prevent
any hostile moves against the Consulate. (Hmm. Dulinor conspiracy
theories, anyone?)
Unfortunately, the problem with that is that after the initial
disruption, revolutions have the nasty habit of creating vigorous,
aggressive regimes that unite popular support behind their ideologies
and set about trying to spread these to all their neighbours...
Stephen
>In the news today, Imperial forces discovered a military build up of
>Zhodani forces near their borders. The Zhodani of course denied that they
>were rattling their sabres, but insisted they were merely conducting
>defensive manuevers against the day when Imperial forces might invade their
>territories. The Local Duke has responded with a limited mobilization, and
>has sent a requestion for instructions from the Arch Duke himself...
>
> This would mean that Imperial forces would be perhaps a mite thinner than
>they'd like. It would also explain why the garrison troops were used to
>put down demonstrations, and act as the trigger for a civil war incident.
>Perhaps one ship, armed with nuclear devices, truely by accident used a
>nuclear weapon that was either improperly identified as conventional, or
>was inproperly labled as conventional. Either way, the deaths of Imperial
>Citizens at the hand of the Navy would likely result in a furor over said
>event, perhaps sparking an even worse situation.
>
> Hal
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:12:07 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
"DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com> writes:
>(At this point you must imagine the national anthem of the USSR*
>begining to swell as the party apparatchiks march in lock step on
>the palace.
>
>*I can't find it at the moment but I've got a tape from the eighties
>with national anthems from quite a few countries. The "Hymn to
>the Soviet Union" (not sure if that's teh exact title) is a very moving
>piece of music.
Historical trivia time: the participants in the *actual* Russian
Revolution sang the "Internationale" (which was the USSR's national
anthem until WW2) and even "La Marseillaise".
The song you're thinking of was, IIRC, supposedly "written" by Stalin
in 1943 or so (in fact, he got a couple of composers to write songs,
then took part of the tune from each of them).
ObTrav: do revolutionary movements such as the Ine Givar also plunder
the iconography of other, older revolutions?
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 05:32:19 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
At 03:25 AM 2/20/01 +0000, Larsen E Whipsnade wrote:
> The E-4's who worked for me did jobs more similar to E-1s and 2s in
> other divisions. They had to, we had no one who ranked any lower.
Before they changed the rules on RMs/ETs and Sonar Techs, a boat usually
had half a dozen, at most, E3 or below (usually the cooks, yeomen, and
strikers were the only non-POs). Now ETs and STSs arrive as E3s, or even
E2s, but there still are less than a dozen non-POs at any one time. This
means that E4s get the scut jobs. And when it's time for field day, even
the E6s are down in the bilges....
> I was an E-6, PO1, and my fellow E-6s and I had nothing in common with
> the real PO1s. My ship had a PO1 mess and lounge, but I never step foot
> in it unless ordered there for a "all-PO1" meeting with the XO or CO.
There was a "lifer locker" on the tender, too, but I was only in there once
or twice - I preferred to eat with my friend, who were all E5s and E4s.
>My ship had two seperate crews, de facto if not de jure.
> We called the non-nuc portion of the crew "consumers" and referred to
> ourselves as "California Water & Light."
Nucs and "coners," on a boat.
James
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 05:34:58 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
At 03:50 AM 2/20/01 +0000, Larsen E Whipsnade wrote:
> As the military is forced to handle more and more technical duties,
> determining pay rates without taking into account the actual job being
> performed is asinine. We already pay pilots, divers, demo experts more,
> way not the hard to fill tech rates?
ANavs, the 3M coordinator, and the ship's LAN administrator. And let's not
forget sub pay. 8)
>Heck, why not ALL hard to fill rates more? The USN has far too many
>typewriter bangers and cooks, but far too few bosuns. Might "bosun pay"
>entice a few more into the rate? The Army could use the same device to
>flesh out it's infantry ranks.
You should see what's happened to SRB. I think the cap is now $60k for
nucs, and $45k for non-nucs. And they're still having problems with
manning....
James
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 05:45:41 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
At 10:40 PM 2/19/01 -0600, Charles Hensley wrote:
>There are also levels of Damage Control Teams. Each watch shift (2 - 4,
>depending on the ship) had a first team. First DC team always consists
>of all Hull Techs, all DC men, one electrician, and a Corpsman (who
>reports to the Infirmary), plus however many extra people needed to man
>the fire hoses, from that shift. 2nd team consists of 1 electrician,
>all otherwise unoccupied snipes (below decks crew), third team is
>EVERYBODY. Aircraft carriers also have the same thing for the flight
>deck (but I don't know who are the required personel).
One of the hardest things to get used to when I was on the tender was the
idea of waking up to a fire drill ("Away the firecracker team. Firecracker
team muster at repair locker three. Rescue and assistance detail muster at
reapair locker five.") and just rolling over and going back to sleep. On
the tender, the firecracker team was mainly composed of DC-men, with maybe
a few HTs and EMs. The R&A detail was drawn fro the duty section, and
included all sorts of rates. (My first division included ETs, RMs, STSs,
OMs, and IMs, and any of them could end up filling our slots on R&A.) The
DCC told us at duty-section training that in the case of a real major
casualty, he would be drawing from the ranks of the SW-qualified personnel
first, as they knew the most about skimmer-specific damage control. We
bubbleheads would be next, as, while-we didn't know as much about skimmers,
we were all DC-qualified. The general rabble would come last....
On a sub, on the other hand, DC is an all-hands evolution. If there's a
fire or flooding, *everyone* is out of the rack. Certain watchstations are
assigned certain dutues (as offgoing RMOW, for instance, I'm hoseman on #1
fire hose for a fire; as oncoming, I lay to Radio to help the on-watch RMOW
prepare the emergency report), and everyone else musters on the mess decks
(or aft, if the fire is forward) to be used as necessary.
Oh, and one thing never heard on submarines is "This is a drill, this is a
drill." We treat a drill just like the real thing.
James
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:48:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: TGOOs
In mail you write:
> On Mon, 19 Feb 2001, Jones, Dean wrote:
>> Dead? Absolutely not! I myself still refer to the 'bit bucket' and black
>> holes...and I even realised I'd referred to 'Black Magic' the other day!
>
> The Computer Science student club had a year and a half ago a paper basket
> which had the words "/dev/null" on it...
Last time I checked was version 5, but MS-DOS actually supports a
"\dev" directory. For example, try:
echo Hello World >c:\dev\prn
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:04:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
In mail you write:
>>Robert O'Connor wrote:
>>> Unconscious within 16 seconds (core to 41 C), fitting shortly thereafter.
>>
>>I suspect that the brain might be close to the first affected organ.
>>After all, the head is likely to be the closest part of the body to an
>>(overhead) orbital maser. Temperature rise might be even faster there
>>than elsewhere -- and my (non-medical) guess would be that it is also
>>where temperature rises have the greatest effect.
>>
>>
>>> Skin will die above 48 C. Proteins irreversibly denature above 55 C.
>>
>>Skin would probably take a lot of the energy. I don't know what the
>>attenuation depth in flesh for atmosphere-penetrating microwaves is.
>>Strangely, that data is lacking from my references. I understand that
>>domestic microwaves are of a frequency that would be absorbed by the
>>atmosphere over these sorts of distances and are particularly well
>>absorbed by liquid water, so I can't really extrapolate from what's
>>known of them to orbital maser weapons.
>>
> Wouldn't it be possible to shield against this kind of weapon, using either
> an overhead net (at the proper 1/4 wavelength weave or even in a helmet) to
> prevent the brain being cooked?
You have to deal with scatter. Also, such things will tend to stand out
when a the maser is used (in low power mode) as a radar. And then
there's all that arcing that was mentioned.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:58:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
In mail you write:
> In-Reply-To: <F360bPur9gSRp9tgEaQ00015f5a@hotmail.com>
> Greetings dear hearts, especially Mr Whipsnade.
>
> Here's an excerpt from the scenario I am in the middle of, detailing the
> duelling ethic on the planet Lehar: -
>
> "On Lehar, matters of honour are often settled by duelling. Duels are
> formal and stylised, but none the less deadly. Foils are used, with a long
> dagger in the 'off' hand, and the combatants strip to light fencing shorts
> to prevent the use of hidden armour. Duels may be fought to the first
> blood or to the death.
Ok, reality check time.
Foils are *only* used in sport fencing, and started out as a practice
weapon for epee training. They are *totally* unsuitable for duel of the
sort described, especially when "long daggers" are being used in the
off hand. Foils are just too easy to *break* if blocked by that dagger.
At least the above is what my friends who fence told me.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3710
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3711
Date: | 2/20/01 8:01:06 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 20 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3711
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Re : Indefinite life span
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
RE: Source Code request?
RE: En Garde
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
RE: Ship habitability
[none]
Re: giving too much credit
Re: giving too much credit
Re: Democracy Now!
RE: Democracy Now!
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Source Code request?
Re: A Lucky Find?
Re: Interesting spots to visit
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
RE: OT RL Info on Internet copyright
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:07:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
In mail you write:
> Wouldn't BD or even a vacc-suit give some protection against this?
Ever see what happens when you put metal in a microwave? At *far* lower
power densitys, you get these lovely arcs.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:11:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
In mail you write:
> Waaaait just a minute: We ALL know that Hotblack's Band, Disaster Area, is
> the one whose audiovisual system violate many planets' strategic arms
> limitations treaties. All others are merely pretenders. This from Douglas
> Adams' Restaurant at the End of the Universe.
Evil thought of the week.
There's a gizmo that's been kicking around as a lab prototype for
around 20 years now. By using MHD effects, it's possible to make a
flame act as a speaker.
I'd previously suggested using rocket engines as the source of the
"flame". But it occurs to me that a bad like Disaster area might be
using ship-mounted plasma weapons, or maybe HEPlaR drives as speakers.
Picture a band that doesn't use speaker towers, instead, they have
these "things" the size of a small ship, that have to be sited on
reinforced concrete pads and produce sound from jets of blinding flame
half a kilometer long. At power levels that require a 1 km safety zone
around them.
They don't "set up" the sound system, they *land* them. :-)
- -------------------
Notice to Spacefarers 1105-075
Antares Down will be closed to traffic from 18:00 to 25:00 local time
on 1105-100 due to a concert by Near-C. Antares STC will broadcast
notices of exclusion zones for the bands sound checks during the week
preceeding this date.
- -------------------
Hey, where else are they going to find enough open space with
facilities "hardened" against that sort of noise levels?
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:06:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
In mail you write:
> Tim Little wrote :-
>> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>>> IIRc it only takes a few degrees of 'instant' temperature rise to
>>> coagulate quite a few of the protiens found in a person.
>>
>> 400 kW/m^2 probably translates to about 1 kW/kg in a person. That's
>> enough to raise their average temperature by about 1 K per 4 seconds.
>
> Unconscious within 16 seconds (core to 41 C), fitting shortly thereafter.
> The highest core temperature that anyone has survived intact is 46.5 C (heat
> stroke). He was hospitalised for 3 weeks.
>
> Skin will die above 48 C. Proteins irreversibly denature above 55 C.
>
> The primary cause of death will be either burns and subsequent sepsis or
> multi-organ failure (liver, brain, and kidney).
Lovely. Exactly the sort of injuries weapons designers *love*, because
they are hard to treat in the field, and tie up lots of enemy resources.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:22:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Indefinite life span
In mail you write:
>>From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
>> > Paul Drye wrote :-
>> > The key point is that accidents are essentially random, so a large
>> > enough group has a "half-life".
>>
>>I thought that life expectancy was just that - the age at which 50% of a
>>given cohort are still alive.
>
> I put it into quotes in an attempt to imply radioactive half-life, which has
> some peculiar features if you replace the atoms with people who act the same
> way.
>
> My point was, in the West now life expectancy is a pretty useful figure.
> Call it eighty years, just to round it off. A very large fraction of the
> population will die between the ages of 60 and 90, so working on the
> assumption that one will live for eighty years is not a bad guess.
>
> But on the other hand, if aging is stopped completely, death would be
> largely random -- accidents and contagious disease (this admittedly neglects
> stuff like heart disease, but then the argument transforms into "what is
> aging" and I'm not touching that with a 3.048 meter pole. Leave it out for
> simplicity's sake). If death is random, you can't make a good guess at how
> long you'd live.
>
> Suppose the half-life were 804 years, as your rough calculation suggests.
> Approximately ten percent of the population would still be alive at the 2500
> year mark. This difference in the degree of deviation from the life
> expectancy was what I was getting at -- no-one today, let alone ten percent
> of us, lives for three times our canonical three-score-and-ten,
> yogurt-gulping Azeris notwithstanding.
Yep, rather than an oddly distorted bell curve, you get an exponential
decay curve. The "peak" is at birth, and there's a declining slope from
there.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 02:48:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
In mail you write:
> Gentlemen, please bear in mind I was part of the creative team for TNE . . .
> thank you.
We've (mostly) forgiven you, Loren :-)
> Reminds me of the time some critic at the hotel bar at one of the
> east coast Origins was sounding off on what a lousy book _Red Storm
> Rising_ was, and how the scenario was totally implausible. I was
> sitting at the next table, with Frank Chadwick and a couple of
> friends of GDW, including one Tom Clancy (this was in the days he
> still could attend gaming cons and not be recognized). We were all
> waiting for the critic to say "What idiot came up with that one?" but
> he never did -- spolied a perfect anecdote in the making . . .
I guess you've never heard Isaac Asomov's story about the time he was
in a class (or possibly a seinar of some sort) where some litcrit type
(or possibly literature professor) was going on about one of Asimov's
books. Isaac put forth an opinion contrary to the prof's regarding the
author's intent with regards to some plot element. This lead to an
exchange alone the following lines:
Prof: "And on what do you base *that* conclusion?"
Asimov: "I wrote the book!"
Prof: "So? That doesn't mean you know why you did it!"
When dealing with critics or lit types, you *can't* win.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:20:37 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Source Code request?
Thing wrote:
> Does anyone out there have, or know the location of, any good
> routines/algorythms for drawing linked/adjacent hexagons like
> for a subsector map, that they would be willing to share with
> me. I can't find the source for an old project I did this in
> and would rather not re-invent it if nescessary.
I have a VB4(Professional) routine that displays a subsector in a
picturebox as part of an ongoing project. If this is of any use
to you I can send it to you tonight when I get home (its on my
home PC, not my work PC). Just let me know within the next 6
hours or you'll have to wait another day.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:24:57 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: En Garde
Loren wrote:
> Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to
> allow for female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever
> Amber_ and _Desiree_. Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing
> the king even moreso, but both had their rewards.
>
> There was even allowance for enlisting in the army disguised as a
> man, although this involved certain risks also.
Where can I find this, what's the URL?
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:38:00 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
On 20 Feb 2001, at 0:07, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
>
> > Wouldn't BD or even a vacc-suit give some protection against this?
>
> Ever see what happens when you put metal in a microwave? At *far* lower
> power densitys, you get these lovely arcs.
And the objects get thrown around. A friend of mine left a spoon in his coffee
when he nuked it, and it was thrown half-way through the microwave's door.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 04:00:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
Aboard IKE we had an Inport Emergency Team (IET) and Rescue &
Assistance Detail (R&A) while inport. At sea, we had the repair
lockers, flight deck fire party and, IIRC (it's been 10 years), a
hangar deck fire party.
Everyone, and I mean everyone, had a repair locker. I reported aboard
as a JOSN and was assigned as an investigator to a gallery deck fire
party. Later, as a JO3 and JO2, I was the pipe-patching team leader
for Repair 1B in hangar bay 2. I qualed for every damage control
position, with the exception of on-scene leader.
Yeah, the HTs and DCs were the repair locker leaders, but the actual
work was being done by personnelmen, postal clerks, yeomen and
journalists (our repair locker was made up of folks from the Admin
department).
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" — Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1
**********************************************************************************************
__________________________________________________
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Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:00:13 -0000
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
Subject: [none]
In Digest 3696, Mr. Whipsnade wrote:
<<SNIP>>
Oddly enough, that's exactly what some members of the list were
suspicious of me doing at first; raising the possibility that I was playing
the same "courteous insult" game here too. i would like to assure them
again that I am not.
Larsen
<<UNSNIP>>
Uh, I apologise if you thought I was 'getting at you' with my post - I was
just using you as an example (um, is it just me, or does that make it sound
even worse?) of something that has occured to me on several occassions.
The mob I work for is basically an American company, and we Brits seem to
have picked up the "Call everybody by their given name and they won't get
upset with us" syndrome (that is what I call it - YMMV). We haven't yet
started saying "Have A Nice Day" yet, but I'm sure it's only a matter of
time... :-).
Even so, I tend to call the Users I have to speak to as Mr. Jones (or
whatever) the first time I call them, which sometimes causes trouble if the
given name is 'Chris' and it turns out to end with 'ine' instead of
'opher'... :-(, but that's annother story (those 'Help Desk Funnies'-type
stories? I'm willing to betthat about 99% *really are* accurate. Some
Users should not be allowed near keyboards, mice or even pocket
calculators!).
But please feel free to call me almost anything - as long as I can be
uniquely identified (oh I can, I can! - in person at least) then I promise
not to get too upset #8) [my hair's a mess, I wear glasses and I'm
smiling].
Oh, and I got in this morning and found 21 Digest messages... cheers guys
and gals! Just hope I'm not expected t do any real work today...
Jeff.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:39:08 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: giving too much credit
ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> Ok, I definitely have NOT made a good first impression here have
> I??
No ;-)
> Is it possible to go out and come back in to try again?? Then
> again, maybe not.
> Tell ya what, I'll just shut up for a while. Ok??
A good move might be to watch how the rest of the list talk to each
other for a few days before joining the discussion... trust me, I know
(commie/atheist flamewar, anyone?).
Sorry if we misunderstood you. Read a day or three of posts, and we will
gladly welcome you among us.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 01:52:23 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: giving too much credit
On 20 Feb 2001, at 13:39, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
> ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> > Ok, I definitely have NOT made a good first impression here have
> > I??
[snip]
> Sorry if we misunderstood you. Read a day or three of posts, and we will
> gladly welcome you among us.
It seems my initial reaction was hasty. I'll apologise for that (and disable
the filter, never like them anyway).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:24:35 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
>Don't you know the only historically vallid government
>for the Imperium is the scientific planned political economy.
Splitter!
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:45:03 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
bloo wrote:
> All this take of legal systems and constitutions
> leads me back to a setting-shaking event I want
> to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it myself:
>
> A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.
> With a goal to create a Federal Republic type
> system. Maybe it's Yanks in Space but so what!
> There are ways to do it without following the
> American model.
>
> I can dream can't I. :-P
Ohh, yuck!
1) Democracies require timely communication between the
electorate and the elected. For low tech worlds this limits
the effective size of countries. For the Imperium it would
limit the size of effective government to roughly the
subsector scale.
2) Democracies work by having the elected pander to the fleeting
whims of the masses. Restrictions need to be in place to
protect minorities. Also, as a society becomes more
technical, knowledge becomes more specialised ... and the
subset of people who have a sound grasp of the issues of the
day shrinks. Thus the effectiveness of democracy declines as
tech level increases.
Therefore for a TL15 political entity the size of the 3I would
have no choice but to abandon democratic principles as
unworkable, and replace it with a variation of the feudal
technocracy. Of course, some local planetary and subsector
governments could be based along democratic lines if enough of
the locals were afflicted with that particular fetish, but I
wouldn't recommend it.
What people want from their government is provision of safety and
prosparity, leaders who can deal effectively with the issues of
the day, and controls on abuse of power. Democracy is just a
distraction.
That's not to say the 3I doesn't have problems. The autonomy of
planetary governments virtually gaurentees that there will be
numerous cases of failure of the *planetary* government to
provide for its citizens (and that includes democratic planetary
governments).
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 06:58:34 -0700
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <jps64@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
At 01:24 AM 2/20/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
><original message>
> "Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????"
><Kurt's response>
> "Yep, now I'm certain, Clif has returned."
>
>
>
> "I'm very new here, bit please don't tell me that the TML has a troll.
>Please!??!"
>
>
> Larsen
>
> Sorry guy. I'm not Cliff.
You've got that right. Cliff at least had a few redeeming qualities where
apparently you have none.
Paul
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:12:18 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
> From: "DaveShayne"
> Don't you know the only historically vallid government
> for the Imperium is the scientific planned political economy.
>
> It is time, tovariches, to proclaim the truth of the interstellar
> proletariat revolution! Long live the United Soviet Socialist Planets!
>
> All power to the Soviets! Down with Tsarist Imperialism!
The Regina Regional Committee of the Ine Givar (Solidariti) welcomes the
emergence of new forces in the revolutionary struggle against the
megacorporations' Imperium.
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:01:27 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
> From: Stephen Tempest
> Historical trivia time: the participants in the *actual* Russian
> Revolution sang the "Internationale" (which was the USSR's national
> anthem until WW2) and even "La Marseillaise".
>
> The song you're thinking of was, IIRC, supposedly "written" by Stalin
> in 1943 or so (in fact, he got a couple of composers to write songs,
> then took part of the tune from each of them).
Correct.
By some accounts, the new anthem reflected a political change from an
internationalist to a Russian nationalist perspective.
The Comintern (Communist International) was disbanded during WW2 as a
favour to the Allied powers, and the Soviet government used a lot of
nationalist stuff to rally people behind the war effort. The anthem change
was part of all this.
> ObTrav: do revolutionary movements such as the Ine Givar also plunder
> the iconography of other, older revolutions?
You betcha. Unfortunately not all of it would be Solomani, or even human.
Or maybe that's not unfortunate: it means that you can use nearly anything
you want.
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:01:25 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com>
Subject: Re: Source Code request?
I dunno who asked originally, but...
> > Does anyone out there have, or know the location of, any good routines/
> > algorythms for drawing linked/adjacent hexagons like for a subsector map,
> > that they would be willing to share with me.
http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry/traveller/SubSectorCanvas.java
draws a subsector hex map.
http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry/traveller/SectorCanvas.java
draws a dot-map-esque sector map. See it run at:
http://www.magma.ca/~ehenry/traveller/spinward.html
Use it as you like, but maybe give me credit if you get rich off it
or something. :) I wrote it to learn Java nigh-on 6 years ago...
Ethan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:10:18
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?
At 01:51 AM 2/20/2001 EST, you wrote:
> uuuummmmm........could someone explain to me what an ancient Cthulhu
>religion has to do with Traveller?? Isn't that more specific to D&D?? I
>know I'm new to the list so could someone explain it to me?? Please??
Why would Cthulthu be specific to DnD? _Call of Cthulthu_ is a fine game
on its own.
Anyway...
Cthulthu: Bat-winged immortal that possesses a monsterous intellect, and
lies sleeping, but will someday arise.
Yaskodray, aka Grandfather: Bat-winged, immortal Droyne that possesses a
monsterous intellect, and hides in his pocket universe, and may someday
return.
There was also a race that closely resembled the Hivers...
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:23:33
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Interesting spots to visit
At 03:21 AM 2/20/2001 EST, you wrote:
> A longer, detailed explanation of my smartmouthed comment: I'm a blue
>collar worker who lives in the so-called "projects" and drives a beater back
>and forth to work to pay the bills. I can't afford a ticket overseas let
>alone to the next state. i play Traveller as a game of adventure,not as a
>way of exchanging detailed information except where necessary.
Good for you. My wife and I are both Teamsters, and work for an airport
shuttle company. She drives, I dispatch. Our secondhand car has well over
100,000 miles on it, and the last time I actually went somewhere on
vacation was 1989.
So, if we are finished playing the blues, let me tell you that I don't
really give a rats ass what you play Traveller for. On this list, people
are free to discuss whatever aspects of Traveller they want, and can get
into some very esoteric and detailed exchanges.
We have a wealth of knowledge here, and willingly share it. I don't know
if you noticed, but much of the discussion of courts was being carried out
by lawyers. People Who Know More Than You. That information might be
useful to me someday.
> Ok, so I'm not a high-tech freak, does that make me the "troll" of the
>TML?? I have straight forward opinions about things and i tend to forget I'm
>not as smart as most people. Yes, i'm big enough to admit that. I shall
>attempt to refrain from further smart-mouthed comments in the future. As for
>the comment I made earlier. Let it stand.
You just can't stop insulting people, can you? All we've seen from you are
insults and rude comments. You seem to see this list as something that we
do for *you.* We don't, each of us does it for ourselves.
> BTW, yes I type with two fingers. LOL.
I wrote GT: Ground Forces that way. Stop making excuses.
- --
Douglas E. Berry Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
Author of GT: Ground Forces
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 07:37:39
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
At 01:40 AM 2/20/2001 EST, you wrote:
> Ok, let me try to explain my point of view, if I may. Fine, you people
>want to explain all the intricacies (did I spell that right?) of courts and
>titles and all. That's fine. But what would happen to a player who just
>wanted to know the correct way of addressing someone if he wasn't interested
>in all the details. It's simple, he would fall asleep during the long, drawn
>out, boring letters that you wrote. Not to mention it would take something
>away from the game.
More insults. Listen, if you are running a game by reading TML posts, you
are really in need of help.
What's the title? Grand High Lord of Cabbage. There, happy now?
> What if the players don't actually know how to address the local nobles??
>What if the local nobles do things slightly different than the courts
>norms??That in itself could lead to a mini adventure within the gane when
>the local noble brings charges against a player for some minor but local
>insult.
Then you *make it up*. Or do a little research into actual societies. Or
ask us.
But be warned, we are a verbose lot, and are not her to act as Delphic
Oracles. We like to discuss things, and examine how they would actually
work in the universe of Traveller. Hence, the rather intricate discussion
of court systems.
Don't like it? Skip the damn messages.
>Then I have to explain all those court preceedings to my players?? And they
>fall asleep.
Remember Campbell's rule. You never see a scene in a detective novel where
the hero stops and explains the science behind the .38 pistol he's holding.
Unless you absolutely need to, keep that as background material.
Now, if it important to know how the court operates, there are ways of
introducing it. Do a quick write-up hitting the high points, have a NPC
explain the important facts, or, the most amusing, have them learn the hard
way!
"What do you mean we're under arrest! All I did was complement the chef!"
"Silence, we do not speak of such things in the presence of nobility!
Their food is given by the Gods!"
> t's not that I don't like all the extra detail that ya'll write about. I
>just don't necessarily need it in a game and neither does a player. It tends
>to bog the game down and as we all know, when that happens players get
>bored.
One more time: It isn't about you. It is not a question and answer
session. It's is a number of traveller fans trading ideas.
> Why not just keep it simple?? Don't tell me how to address the local
>noble at all times. Just tell me how to address him/her at THIS time. Then,
>keep the game going. Don't explain all the court politics to me, just tell
>me whats going on real quick and what I can as a player, dop about it.
>Simple.
Sure, my going rate for those answers are $30, and I take Visa.
Mining ideas that I come up with on my own time, by answering other's
posts, are free.
- --
Duugirashir Irebamenagiin gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 21:05:34 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: OT RL Info on Internet copyright
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Steve Daniels
> Sent: 19 February 2001 06:00
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: OT RL Info on Internet copyright
>
> Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
>
> > There is, since about a year or something, a *very* stupid law in
> > Sweden...
> >
> > Basically, it is illegal to have any kind of personal
> > information about other people on a website without
> > those persons' express permission.
>
> That's not copyright law. It's privacy law. And a lot of
> other countries have such laws.
>
More correctly, _every_ EU country has that sort of privacy law (and
most of those we deal with do too). Even the US abides by it, within
the Safe Harbours agreement.
As to copyright - it really depends on where you are. Outside the US,
a website is considered a "medium" within the context of international
copyright law. In the US, it varies - but since much of the rest of
the world ignores US copyright anyway, who cares?
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3711
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3712
Date: | 2/20/01 10:21:28 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 20 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3712
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
RE: Democracy Now!
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
Re: Geophysical/Climate question
fencing
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Imperial Law
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: OT RL Info on Internet copyright
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: GURPS FAR TRADER question
Re:
Re: fencing
Re: GURPS FAR TRADER question
Re: Imperial Civil Courts
Re: fencing
Re: Source Code request?
Copyright Laws
Re: Imperial Civil Courts
Re: TGOOs
Re: TGOOs
Re: Geophysical/Climate question
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:58:18 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
"All of a sudden, somebody comes stomping in. He turns to one of your
friends and says, "Will you shut the hell up, you're boring me!". Then he
turns to another and says, "What you're talking about has no value!" and so
on. Think about how much respect you'd show that jackass.
In this case, you are that jackass."
Mr. Shagyy3D,
I must agree rather strongly with Mr. Seamans on this. Hence my snip
above of his post attempting to explain your less than warm greeting here on
the TML.
Your behavior has been extremely odd and almost "trollish" in nature.
While I haven't assigned your address to my kill file yet, I find myself
very close to doing so.
This morning I checked my TML mail file and found 89 messages had
arrived in a little under 12 hours. Thinking some threads had started, I
eagerly opened the file and began reading. Close to half the messages were
from you, unfortunately.
Your posts had nothing to do with the threads they were linked to.
Your posts were little more than the one or two flip responses they had been
earlier. Your posts did contain a few apologies for past behavior, but I
didn't see any improvement in that behavior in the non-apologetic posts that
followed. You posts added nothing to the thread being discussed. All your
posts were contentless drivel that wasted my time to open, read, and delete
them.
In fact the only thread you have a hand in here so far is the one
dealing with either your involuntary unsubscription or about how to assign
you to a kill file. If you take the time to muse on those points, you might
be able to discern how your actions have made you look to a great many, very
tolerant people.
Please know that I am not some self-appointed contents censor or Great
Old One. In fact I am a newbie like yourself. I began posting after
lurking for 2+ months and still my posts are marked with my bumbling,
sometimes foolish, eagerness. Despite my many mistakes, the TML has been
nothing if not kind and understanding because I actually had something to
ask or say.
As loathe as I am to placing you in a kill file, if I find another 35+
post flood in a 12 hour span from you, with each post as empty as the last,
you are going there. I simply don't have the time to deal with the TML
equivalent of spam.
Sincerely,
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:06:13 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
Hello Folks,
Just to play devils Advocate here...
As I picture the governmental structure of the Imperium, I see what looks
like a multi-tiered structure. The overall large scale picture requires
one group of policy makers to oversee the direction of government. Each
subsequent layer requires that that level of government takes care of
increasingly specialized situations until you reach the lowest tier of
government, that has direct contact with the people itself.
That being the case - what difference does *type* of government make as
far as what each tier is doing?
For example:
It is understood that the Grand Senate has a membership of senators whose
term encompasses 10 years. The Grand Senator is not elected directly by
the masses so much as he is elected by the planetary senate - a sort of
sectorwide assembly. The sector wide assembly is directly elected by the
planetary governments themselves. How the planetary governments are
elected is up to the planet itself.
What the Grand Senate regulates is the tax collection for purposes of
defense, along with R&D developments for faster communications etc. The
Overall government is involved in maintaining status quo amongst the member
nations along with handling the day to day friction as events unfold. Does
the Grand Senate deal directly? Not on your life. They create the bodies
that deal directly with the situations as they occur. They set the policy
by which these created agencies follow.
Ultimately, whether it is a Democracy, Dictatorship, Autocracy, or
Planned society type of government, the bueacracy required to run such a
LARGE government is, in my opinion, the only thing that determines how well
a government runs.
Hal
PS - in theory, the communistic government was supposed to be a great
thing. Too bad it didn't take into account human nature <grin>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:03:43 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
"Trevor, Peter" wrote:
> 1) Democracies require timely communication between the
> electorate and the elected. For low tech worlds this limits
> the effective size of countries. For the Imperium it would
> limit the size of effective government to roughly the
> subsector scale.
But it's a democratic revolution to bring tech to the low tech
worlds!
And they only require communication if they want to *accurately*
represent their citizens.
> 2) Democracies work by having the elected pander to the fleeting
> whims of the masses.
Thank you, Mr. Stalin.
> Restrictions need to be in place to protect minorities.
Only if the majority wants to protect them.
> Also, as a society becomes more
> technical, knowledge becomes more specialised ... and the
> subset of people who have a sound grasp of the issues of the
> day shrinks. Thus the effectiveness of democracy declines as
> tech level increases.
I call B.S. on that. I think you're letting your views of the real
world
taint your imagination.
> Therefore for a TL15 political entity the size of the 3I would
> have no choice but to abandon democratic principles as
> unworkable, and replace it with a variation of the feudal
> technocracy.
Who says it has to be the size of the 3I? Who says the democratic
mechanisms need to be similar to real world ones?
Member worlds could select Senators based on whatever criteria
or government type they want. The length of term of a Senator in
the Imperial Senate might be 10, 20 or even 30 years. A President
could be elected by the Senate every 10 or so years.
You might have a democratic constitutional monarchy like the UK
model with a Parliament and a House of Lords (which might be
a nice solution to a democratic movement that could appease
current nobility by preserving something of their power and standing).
> Of course, some local planetary and subsector
> governments could be based along democratic lines if enough of
> the locals were afflicted with that particular fetish, but I
> wouldn't recommend it.
Democracy as fetish. You *are* Stalin, aren't you? :-P
> What people want from their government is provision of safety and
> prosparity, leaders who can deal effectively with the issues of
> the day, and controls on abuse of power. Democracy is just a
> distraction.
So that's what I want! Thanks for reminding me.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:05:19 +0000 (GMT)
From: Eamon Patrick Watters <E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
GDWGAMES@aol.com sent:
>> I'm with you, partner. Screw Virus! Who spiked the water cooler
>> when they came up with that one!??!
>> Here's a list for you; New Coke, the Edsel, and Virus.
Gentlemen, please bear in mind I was part of the creative team for TNE . .
.
thank you.
And for that alone you have my eternal thanks!
Eamon Watters, TNE Acolyte.
'More Tea Penguin?' - Wallace and Grommit, 'The Wrong Trousers'.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:11:01 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Geophysical/Climate question
Hello Jeff,
Based on what I've read about what happens when you get a really HUGE
volcanic erruption - the planet enters into a mini-ice age. What happens
is that the particles suspended in the atmosphere raise the albedo of the
planet such that some of the light is reflected back out. As for more rain
and the like? I am guessing that is entirely at the whim of how much water
vapor is found in the air at that point in time. The warmer a body of air
is, the more water vapor it can sustain. The colder a body of air is, the
less moisture it can contain. As a guess? I suspect what would happen is
that the temperature of said world would get slightly colder than normal,
and that the atmosphere will require a bit of time before it "precipitates"
out the contaminants. How long would this process take? I don't know,
perhaps someone else can answer that <grin>. Again, this is based on what
I've read as relates to earth...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:12:39 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: fencing
> > "On Lehar, matters of honour are often settled by duelling. Duels are
> > formal and stylised, but none the less deadly. Foils are used, with a long
> > dagger in the 'off' hand, and the combatants strip to light fencing shorts
> > to prevent the use of hidden armour. Duels may be fought to the first
> > blood or to the death.
>Ok, reality check time.
>Foils are *only* used in sport fencing, and started out as a practice
>weapon for epee training. They are *totally* unsuitable for duel of the
>sort described, especially when "long daggers" are being used in the
>off hand. Foils are just too easy to *break* if blocked by that dagger.
>At least the above is what my friends who fence told me.
Yup, foils are "training weapons".
Ok if the duel is real friendly, i.e. first touch instead of first blood.
If you actually want to cause damage, use an epee'or light rapier.
Heavier weapons would result in a serious change in style, which I don't
think the author is striving for.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions should be yours too! - http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"What's a FAQ? Boy, I wish someone would put a list of answers
for common questions such as this..."
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:34:46 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"But Virus was sooo Kewl. And with it came FF&S."
Mr. Boleyn,
Alas too true! As a gearhead wannbe I should be greatfull.
Even worse, my chuckleheaded attempt to kickstart another thread
indirectly insulted Mr. Wiseman. The list seemed to be stuck in "My days in
the Navy" mode (with my help I should add), so I decided to "goose" along
the first new thread that appeared. The thread has taken off and would have
without my help, but...
I have bit the hand that fed me Traveller!!!!!!!!
My most humble and abject apologies, Mr. Wiseman. My personal feelings
towards Virus do not extend to it's mileau or the materials set there.
Mea Culpa,
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:38:54 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Law
Steve Daniels writes:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>I should like to know what source material you base these claims on.
>
>None. The absence of any material suggesting stare decisis is practiced
>leads me to the conclusion that it isn't.
The absence of any material leads me to believe that the subject has not been
covered yet and can therefore be resolved either way.
>>Land is likely to be one of the things an Imperial noble would have a really
>>tough time usurping. Unless it belongs to the Imperium already, all land
>>belongs to someone who is a citizen of a world government. As such, whatever
>>treaty (or whatever such a document is called) made when the world joined the
>>Imperium would spell out the rights surrendered by the world to the Imperium.
>>If this included any land, said land would be defined to the inch.
>
>Probably. But then to which court do you appeal alleged incursions?
>The Moot?
Either the noble's liege lord or one of those Imperial courts mentioned
somewhere (I _think_ it's in one of the _Library Data_ books). Ultimately the
Emperor. That may or may not help, depending on the personality of the liege
lord, but the fact that corruption may occur doesn't mean that their is no law;
it just means that the law may some time be broken.
If the imperial noble is sufficiently low -- Baron, Marquis, possibly Count --
and the world is sufficiently powerful, the landowner's world government will
be able to interfere too. After all, some duke will hesitate before violating
the rights of a citizen of a member state that controls forces stronger than his
own, and some high-population worlds have budgets equivalent to that of half a
dozen Imperial fleets.
>>>In canon, there is very little evidence of any significant legal framework,
>>>and particularly little that might resemble modern democratic systems.
>>
>>The Duchy of Regina has a senate. It's powers are not defined and it may
>>simply be advisory, but then again, it may not. Certainly someone in the
>>subsector bureaucracy found it worth while to kidnap a senator and hide him
>>away.
>
>That isn't an imperial legal framework. Perhaps the senator was wealthy?
Subsector governments are just as much Imperial as sector, domain and Imperium
governments. In fact, they are the basic unit of Imperial administration [*].
Certainly I see no reason why the Emperor shouldn't tolerate constitutional
duchies. As long as it gets the job done.
[*] I would like to promote the notion that "Imperial law" often refers to
subsector law rather than Imperium-wide law (It allows for a lot more
latitude to individualize subsectors).
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:39:50 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
"Lovely. Exactly the sort of injuries weapons designers *love*, because
they are hard to treat in the field, and tie up lots of enemy resources."
Mr. Erickson,
On a related subject, can't low powered lasers currently be used to
blind? I got this nagging memory of attempts to blind pilots with them.
Just another figment of my little grey cells or is there a kernal of
truth in it?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:09:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: OT RL Info on Internet copyright
In mail you write:
>> Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
>>
>>> There is, since about a year or something, a *very* stupid law in
>>> Sweden...
>>>
>>> Basically, it is illegal to have any kind of personal
>>> information about other people on a website without
>>> those persons' express permission.
>>
>> That's not copyright law. It's privacy law. And a lot of
>> other countries have such laws.
>>
> More correctly, _every_ EU country has that sort of privacy law (and
> most of those we deal with do too). Even the US abides by it, within
> the Safe Harbours agreement.
Some countries go a bit far with it. For example, Germany(?) had the
law written such that it wasn't legal to have both the user's name and
when they were online available at the same time. Which made Fidonet
echoes (newsgroup equivalent) effectively illegal, as the spec
*requires* the users real name *and* the time the message was entered.
I think the Internet killed that interpretation of the law, but for all
I know it's still on the books. I *do* know that there were changes
made to the way some Fidonet related software worked to accomodate this
requirement (basicly an option to set the time to 00:00:00 while
leaving the date alone).
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:19:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
In mail you write:
> Tsk, tsk, tsk.
>
> bloo, bloo, bloo.
>
> Don't you know the only historically vallid government
> for the Imperium is the scientific planned political economy.
>
> It is time, tovariches, to proclaim the truth of the interstellar
> proletariat revolution! Long live the United Soviet Socialist Planets!
>
> All power to the Soviets! Down with Tsarist Imperialism!
>
> (At this point you must imagine the national anthem of the USSR*
> begining to swell as the party apparatchiks march in lock step on
> the palace.
Ungood. Doubleplus ungood. Crimethink!
Hail Big Brother!
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:47:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS FAR TRADER question
hal@buffnet.net writes:
> Hello Folks,
> A few questions were popping into my head as I examined the rules with an
> eye towards automating them.
Drawing longer routes is harder than one might think.
>
> Am I correct in assuming that every planet has a baseline production value
> of cargoes to be shipped? I get the feeling that once I assign tonnage
> ratings for a star, I should store that value permanently, and then use the
> formulas they give in variable cargo rates, variable cargo tonnage shipped,
> as well as variable passengers...
As written, no. A world with nearby major trade partners will have more total
trade than a world without such partners. There's a reasonable argument for
some sort of shadowing effect (a world with six partners at 1 parsec may
trade less with someone 10 parsecs away than a world with no significant
trade partners within 10 parsecs), but it probably wouldn't be very large.
>
> What about the tonnage values listed where they give a range of 1-5 tons
> per *week* instead of per day?
It means you have a low-volume route.
>
> Since cargo Terms of Shipping only affect the seller or the Buyer - why
> does this chart have anything to do with ordinary cargo lots being shipped?
> I'm not refering to the speculative cargo, I'm talking about the ordinary
> "freight".
BTN tells you about expected regular cargo lots to be shipped. This has
nothing to do with speculative cargo.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:49:16 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
"Uh, I apologise if you thought I was 'getting at you' with my post - I
was just using you as an example (um, is it just me, or does that make it
sound even worse?) of something that has occured to me on several
occassions."
Jeff,
No apology needed, my friend. And Larsen or Bill is just fine with me
too.
As a matter of fact, I used the inflected "Mister" or "Sir" as a way to
vent also. I work as a product engineer who follows behind the salesmen and
must assuage, calm, and placate our customers. Believe me some of these
folks shouldn't be allowed out of the house without a keeper. One of my
favorite flicks has a scene that illustrates this:
Butler: "I believe Mrs. Graham has left for the college, sir."
W. Matthau: "Did you check her for crumbs?"
Butler: "Yes, sir, I took the liberty."
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:51:37 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: fencing
>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
"If you actually want to cause damage, use an epee'or light rapier."
Mr. Urbin,
Is the long dagger called a "poignard"? I most likely have speeld that
incorrectly.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:56:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS FAR TRADER question
hal@buffnet.net writes:
> Hello Folks,
> A few questions were popping into my head as I examined the rules with an
> eye towards automating them.
http://maps.grandsurvey.com/nroute.c
http://maps.grandsurvey.com/blankmap.ps
Sources for my route generator...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:58:52 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts
Doug Berry writes:
>At 01:40 AM 2/20/2001 EST, you wrote:
>
>>...But what would happen to a player who just wanted to know the correct way
>>of addressing someone if he wasn't interested in all the details.
>
>What's the title? Grand High Lord of Cabbage. There, happy now?
But he is _addressed_ as "Your Munchiness" and _referred to_ as "His Crispy
Munchiness, the Grand High Lord of Cabbage, Defender of the Health".
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:39:38 -0800
From: Pat Connaughton <patconnaughton@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: fencing
Always prefered the cutlass or a modified gladius myself,
better for close in work.
Pat Connaughton
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 9:12 AM
Subject: fencing
>
> > > "On Lehar, matters of honour are often settled by duelling. Duels are
> > > formal and stylised, but none the less deadly. Foils are used, with a
long
> > > dagger in the 'off' hand, and the combatants strip to light fencing
shorts
> > > to prevent the use of hidden armour. Duels may be fought to the first
> > > blood or to the death.
> >Ok, reality check time.
> >Foils are *only* used in sport fencing, and started out as a practice
> >weapon for epee training. They are *totally* unsuitable for duel of the
> >sort described, especially when "long daggers" are being used in the
> >off hand. Foils are just too easy to *break* if blocked by that dagger.
> >At least the above is what my friends who fence told me.
>
> Yup, foils are "training weapons".
> Ok if the duel is real friendly, i.e. first touch instead of first blood.
>
> If you actually want to cause damage, use an epee'or light rapier.
> Heavier weapons would result in a serious change in style, which I don't
> think the author is striving for.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
> Opinions should be yours too! - http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
> "What's a FAQ? Boy, I wish someone would put a list of answers
> for common questions such as this..."
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:01:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Source Code request?
Thing writes:
> Dear Sophonts of the list,
>
> Does anyone out there have, or know the location of, any good routines/
> algorythms for drawing linked/adjacent hexagons like for a subsector map,
> that they would be willing to share with me. I can't find the source for
> an old project I did this in and would rather not re-invent it if
> nescessary.
For PostScript, http://maps.grandsurvey.com/blankmap.ps includes postscript
routines for drawing sector maps, though I deliberately squash the hexes by
a little bit to fit on an 8.5x11 page better. Changing the ym and xm
functions will resize the map, the drawhexes function draws the map.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:06:10 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Copyright Laws
Gentlemen,
One of the posts in the Imperial legal frameworks thread mentioned
copyright laws, specifically the fact that most nations ignore US statutes
in that area.
Could one of the TML Legal Dream Team address this please? What is
wrong about the US take on copyright protections that the rest of the world
simply ignores them? Or is the idea that US copyright law is "incorrect"
just a handy fig leaf to explain away widespread software, video, music, and
any other type of media piracy?
For example, friends in the software industry refer to Israel as a "one
disc" country. Once your product arrives there, it's immediately pirated
and distributed, so you only sell "one disc".
Please note, I am not taking sides in the "open source" debate.
Thanks in advance,
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:11:50 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
"...But what would happen to a player who just wanted to know the
correct way of addressing someone if he wasn't interested in all the
details."
"What's the title? Grand High Lord of Cabbage. There, happy now?"
"But he is _addressed_ as "Your Munchiness" and _referred to_ as "His
Crispy Munchiness, the Grand High Lord of Cabbage, Defender of the Health"."
If the noble in question has Solomani-Asian ancestry, "His Most Spicy
Excellency Kim Chi" could be more appropriate.
If his ancestors hailed from Terra's North American continent, he would
of course be known as the "Duke of Slaw".
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:12:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: TGOOs
>From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
>> Ok,TOG is Terran Overlord Government,right?? So what's
>>TEG and TGOO???
>TGOO : The Great Old Ones
>It's a Lovecraft reference...
I was using TGOO to mean Traveller Great Old One(s).
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:39:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: TGOOs
In mail you write:
> When I subscribed,
<snip>
> and I don't recall seeing bangpaths for addresses.
I don't think the list goes back *that* far.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:51:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Geophysical/Climate question
In mail you write:
> TML'ers, esp. the hard science folks...
>
> What effect would very active vulcanism, with all the intendant releases of
> sulfur dioxide, carbon dioxide, hydrogen sulfide,and most especially a large
> and constant release of fine tephra have on a standard Nitrogen/Oxygen
> atmosphere. I am especially interested in weather conditions. I realize,
> coming from coal country as I do, that acid rain is one factor, but what
> about the amount of precipitation increase due to suspended particulate
> matter? Would there be an increase in atmospheric ionization? What about
> global warming?Increased air instability? I realize that this is a lot, but
> it's for a Landgrab...Any help would be appreciated...
Try global *cooling*. A *single* volcanic eruption resulted in "the
year without a summer" back in 1815(?). And comparison of modern
geological dating of eruptions with historical records shows other
occurences.
The basic mechanism is that the eruption throws a lot of *very fine*
dust into the stratosphere. Where it hangs around for a *long* time,
cutting off light to the surface.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3712
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Date: | 2/20/01 12:01:37 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 20 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3713
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
re: Darrian names?
Nobles and the Imperium
Re: Copyright Laws
Re: Copyright Laws
Re: fencing
RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Imperial Civil Courts
RE: Democracy Now!
Lawyers rule the Imperium!
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
'techonomic' Stability (was RE: Ship habitability)
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Democracy Now!
re: Democracy Now!
Re: GURPS FAR TRADER question
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Geophysical/Climate question
Re: Geophysical/Climate question
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:17:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Darrian names?
>From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
>Is there a Darrian name list and/or language generator out there
I usually just use names from the appropriate appendices to The Lord of
the Rings.
- --Glenn
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Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:24:17 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Nobles and the Imperium
Hello Folks,
I know Loren is writing a book on the Imperial Nobles, but perhaps we can
spark his creative juices (as if he needed that right? <wink>) by asking
questions or putting forth ideas on how we see the institution for our own
traveller universes...
First off, I don't see the Imperial Nobles as being individuals entrusted
with powers of absolute control. I don't see Nobles as being able to say
"I like that land you have, er I have, you have 30 seconds to leave".
Enough behavior like that, and I see a rebellion in the making as people
realize that their Imperial Overlords are just that - OVERLORDS <grin>.
What I do see happening however, is that the Imperial Government allocates
funds for the purchase of land directly from the planetary governments.
Such lands purchased become what amount to Embassies of the Imperium,
handed over to Barons, Knights, Dukes, etc as the Emperor desires.
Imperial Laws hold on Imperial soil, but local laws hold on local soil.
As for other tasks entrusted to Barons and/or Dukes? I see them as tax
collectors as well as administrators to the Emperor's will. If a Baron is
instructed "I want you to build a planetary defense net for your planet,
deduct the costs from the tax money you collect, and pass on the remainder
to me" then that is what the Baron does. He may approach his superior
saying "I see a need for a planetary defense grid upgrade for my planet,
may I do so?" in the hopes that he can do just that. If not, he may dig
into his own personal estates and tell the local planetary governments "You
need to build a defense grid. I will match you credit for credit, but only
if you build with the following minimums".
Another thing I see as being the case for the power of nobility is that
they are judged by a different set of laws than normal imperial citizens.
Any case that includes a noble in it is *required* to be heard by other
more higher ranking nobles. In disputes between Barons, it requires a Duke
to adjucate. In cases with Knights, it requires a Baron (or if two
different knights on two planets, two barons, who in turn take it to their
superior, the Duke if they can't resolve it to their mutual satisfaction).
So what else is left for the Nobility? Do they command Vast numbers of
people - whole planets or countries? I very much doubt it. Can they
affect vast numbers of people? I do not doubt they can. Someone who owns
a city block's worth of territory in an industrial manufacturing sector
very likely controls the actions of many people. By using his capital,
such a person may expand much like a corporation does. If a Knight is
wealthy enough, he can use his status within the culture to advance himself
- - and far more effectively than perhaps a Rockerfeller or Gates might do
<grin>.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:25:48 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright Laws
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> Gentlemen,
> One of the posts in the Imperial legal frameworks thread mentioned
> copyright laws, specifically the fact that most nations ignore US statutes
> in that area.
As they should US laws are very relevant in other countries.
> Could one of the TML Legal Dream Team address this please? What is
> wrong about the US take on copyright protections that the rest of the world
> simply ignores them? Or is the idea that US copyright law is "incorrect"
> just a handy fig leaf to explain away widespread software, video, music, and
> any other type of media piracy?
Well, by operation of the Berne Treaty on Copyright, US law on the subject
isn't that different from most other countires. So nothing is particularly
'wrong'
about it.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/copyright.html
http://www.loc.gov/copyright/circs/circ1.html
http://www.netatty.com/copy.html
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:29:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright Laws
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
> Gentlemen,
> One of the posts in the Imperial legal frameworks thread mentioned
> copyright laws, specifically the fact that most nations ignore US statutes
> in that area.
> Could one of the TML Legal Dream Team address this please? What is
> wrong about the US take on copyright protections that the rest of the world
> simply ignores them? Or is the idea that US copyright law is "incorrect"
> just a handy fig leaf to explain away widespread software, video, music,
> and any other type of media piracy?
Basically, strong copyright laws benefit the publisher. Countries with
substantial publishing industries will thus usually have stronger copyright
laws than those without significant publishing industries. There's no
obvious moral framework involved here.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:42:27 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: fencing
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> puts into the Ether:
> >From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
> "If you actually want to cause damage, use an epee'or light rapier."
>Mr. Urbin,
> Is the long dagger called a "poignard"? I most likely have speeld that
>incorrectly.
> Larsen
Close enough, and yes, it could be called that.
Another term is Main Gauche. These range in design depending on the area.
It could simply be a long dagger. Other "off hand" blades included things
like:
a very large guard to protect the hand,
extra 'trapping' blades (usually two, set at 45 degrees from the main
blade, allowing you to trap a foe's blade in the manner of a Juite or Sai).
A heavy cloak was also often used as an off hand weapon. It's used not
only to stop the blade, but also to trap/entangle it and to distract your foe.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions should be yours too! -- http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Tension, apprehension and dissension have begun." -- Alfred Bester
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:47:02 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
On 19 Feb 2001, at 19:40, Terry Carlino wrote:
> >I'm nowhere near a lawyer (either physically, or professionally), but I
> >was pondering - if a nobles regularly had to adjudicate between
> >possibly conflicting self-interests (the state vs. his shares in
> >megacorp.X), wouldn't that be seen (by his peers and higher-ranking
> >nobles, if not the population at large) as a Bad Thing ripe for
> >corruption? If so, perhaps nobles delegate the judicial duties to
> >professional judges (elected/appointed by the local peerage?), with
> >final appeal to the noble themself in extreme cases. They'd be upper-
> >level courts, not the lower and/or common level courts for regular
> >criminal/civil actions, or lower-level 'imperial commercial courts'.
> >
> <Flame On>
>
> Gee would that be like legislators making laws regulating industries that
> give them money through Political Action Committees (PAC's). yeah I think
> the population at large would do something about that right away.
>
> <Flame Off>
I'm not sure if the 'flame' was directed at me or not, as I think we
agree to some extent on this - having nobles as the judiciary when they
are major shareholders of megacorps et al. is inviting opportunities
for corruption or at least the appearance of corruption.
It's sounding like the Syleans who started the 3I and the attendant
nobility may not have had a problem with this or the conflicts of
interest, focussing on 'larger issues' perhaps, but may not have been
seen as Very Nice People, or Friends of the Common Person who would
likely get screwed by abuses of the megacorps that the nobles wouldn't
convict. Bring on the Civil War, Arbellatra's revised 'constitution'/
'magna carta' to address some of this, and for the last five hundred
years, the nobles haven't been the same nobles of yore (immoral,
corrupt, power-hungry, according to some), but somewhat more
immasculated, answering more strictly to their lieges, the emperor
keeping them 'honest' for the better good of the whole Imperium.
Or could the emperor have forced a level of objectivity and 'justice'
all the time? If there were appeals up to the emperor himself,
then perhaps the emperor could act as a damper on the more extreme
nobles. Who polices the police?
Rob D.
p.s. sorry if this is a little incoherent, it's another sleepy
afternoon. I can elaborate/translate if required. :)
- --
Rob
'what did he say?'...'blessed are the geek, dear, blessed are the geek, I think'
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:52:13 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts
> >What's the title? Grand High Lord of Cabbage. There, happy now?
>
>But he is _addressed_ as "Your Munchiness" and _referred to_ as "His Crispy
>Munchiness, the Grand High Lord of Cabbage, Defender of the Health".
"Marquuess of Boston, Countess Romaine and Radicchio, Letticia von
Eisberg-Kale"
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:08:49 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
...
>Therefore for a TL15 political entity the size of the 3I would
>have no choice but to abandon democratic principles as
>unworkable, and replace it with a variation of the feudal
>technocracy. Of course, some local planetary and subsector
>governments could be based along democratic lines if enough of
>the locals were afflicted with that particular fetish, but I
>wouldn't recommend it.
...
>That's not to say the 3I doesn't have problems. The autonomy of
>planetary governments virtually gaurentees that there will be
>numerous cases of failure of the *planetary* government to
>provide for its citizens (and that includes democratic planetary
>governments).
: Subject is evidently ideologically reliable; reviews on a two-
year cycle. Forward recommendation that subject receive assistance
in advancing his career - grants and patronage as usual, but no
permanent tenure before age 40, per policy with radical pol issues :
(copies to be forwarded to allied intel agencies, except INI)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:06:30 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: Lawyers rule the Imperium!
> We have a wealth of knowledge here, and willingly share it. I don't know
> if you noticed, but much of the discussion of courts was being carried out
> by lawyers. People Who Know More Than You.
Hey, I like having people listen to what I say, but I wouldn't go that far.
That kind of talk just gives lawyers undeserved egos and reinforces the
stereotype most folks have. Lawyers may to have learn about courts or law
in school, that knowledge rarely translates into intelligence or success.
>That information might be useful to me someday.
I agree. There is so much room for ideas in Traveller that you never know
which post will generate an adventure seed. With respect to the discussion
that has bored some posters, I could rattle off 5 or so good adventures
involving the legal issues we've kicked around.
Now, if everyone really does want to know, I will be happy to TELL all of
you just how the Imperial Court system works for the modest fee of $250 per
hour ; )
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:12:11 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> Douglas E. Berry wrote :
>
>
>> At 12:38 PM 2/19/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>>
>>
>>> What is that they say on the c-130 gunships "Don't run away, you'll only
>>> die tired"
>>
>> Ah, the AC-130 Spectre.. a plane most player characters would love.
>
>
> Heck, even the old Spooky is fun for PCs
Yeah, they always like hanging out with Mulder until a leech-like thing from the sewers of Jersey eats their brain...
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:15:49 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: 'techonomic' Stability (was RE: Ship habitability)
On 19 Feb 2001, at 21:23, Terry Carlino wrote:
> It's all where you draw the line. In the U.S. Air Force, Army and Marines
> the top 4 enlisted pay grades are counted as "senior" NCO's. (Most foreign
> navies follow the same practice.) In the USN you're not a senior NCO until
> you make E-7, Chief Petty Officer. So until you make CPO you have no special
> privileges. It's part of the continual creep of loss of privileges that is
> going on in the Navy. Up until the 1980's PO1's at least had separate
> messes, where they could network and unwind separately from their troops.
> This privilege was erased by the Navy, by eliminating this space on new
> ships as they were built. Meanwhile the responsibilities given to these men
> and women keep increasing.
This reminds me of the process that I've witnessed in the businesses
where I've worked - the reduction in force of personnel and attendant
increase in expectations, workloads and responsibilities for those that
are left. (The general downsizing of corporations for the last, what,
10-20 years, transition to a world economy (or so management says),
flow of jobs to areas of cheap labor, increasing expectations from
laborers in the older/previous areas of cheap labor.)
Is that and the similar process described by Terry related?
I'm thinking in terms of technology - improving tech levels allows
for greater productivity, some great wave of side effects (pressures to
compete, economic instability) causes shifting of jobs, workers,
factories, cities, wealth, while the 'revolution' happens.
If so, what happens when technology stabilizes (I think you can see
where I'm going with this), yea, even stagnates for long periods of
time? I would expect to not see such pressures and instabilities - and
the accompanying stresses and problems faced by the workers.
Which could be a Good Thing.
If technology/productivity were relatively stable, then people could
plan things with greater confidence, for longer periods into the future
(possibly allowing longer-term projects or visions - 40+ year starship
mortgages, 100+ year terraforming projects, etc., run through my head).
As well as more stable job classifications, expectations, duties,
responsibility - the "immemorial custom of the service" as Jack Aubrey
would say of the Royal Navy[1] - you'd know what was what, what was
expected and what you could do. (Perhaps even some calcification of
society too. Though expansion of the Imperium would ease that
somewhat. Perhaps Core would be a very boring place[2].)
Would the frontier regions be more subject to economic changes?
Would Core and other 'civilized' regions be more stable?
Ah well, I hope that wasn't too painful to read,
Rob D.
[1] for all you Patrick O'Brian fans
[2] I was just reading some of the Core vs. Frontier debate on the JTAS
boards.
- --
Rob
'I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.'
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:15:21 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Mr. Erickson,
> On a related subject, can't low powered lasers currently be used to
> blind? I got this nagging memory of attempts to blind pilots with them.
> Just another figment of my little grey cells or is there a kernal of
> truth in it?
No, blinding is explicitly forbidden under the Geneva Convention. There were some laser-type stuff that people were afraid were going to be used to blind pilots, some sort of rangefinding gear IIRC.
"Honest, officer, it's not a weapon, it's our, uhh, err laser pointer! Yes it's a laser pointer!" Aims tube at screen which vanished in a sharp <CRACK> and puff of smoke. "We just have a few, uhh, bugs to work out!"
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:22:37 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> "I want a democratic revolution while Strephon is still Emperor in
> the 1120s-1140s. Screw Virus! :-P" Bloo, I'm with you,
> partner. Screw Virus! Who spiked the water cooler when they
> came up with that one!??! Here's a list for you; New Coke, the
> Edsel, and Virus.
New Coke's formula quietly supplanted the original Coke within a few
years, Pontiac put out a car in the early 60's bearing an uncanny
resemblance to the Edsel, and it sold well for many years, and Virus is
a simple, direct extrapolation of Marc Miller's own work in Adventure 13.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:38:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Democracy Now!
>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
>All this take of legal systems and constitutions leads me back to a
>setting-shaking event I want to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it
>myself:
>
>A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium. With a goal to create a
>Federal Republic type system.
Even in their wildest fantasies, the Ine Givar only look to liberating
portions of the Domain of Deneb (at least in my Traveller universe). You
are a wild man, counsellor.
- --Glenn
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:50:41 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: GURPS FAR TRADER question
Hello Anthony,
I think I failed my writing skill saving roll <grin>.
What I should have written was this:
As it looks now, FAR TRADER uses WTN as a vehicle for determine the trade
volume that exists between two worlds. Thus, if a calculated BTN is 6.5,
the daily cargo moving between point of origin and point of destination is
listed as being in a range between 0 and 5.
Originally, I thought that this range was what I needed to roll against
when generating cargo volume on a daily basis. Thus, day 1 might mean
rolling 1d6-1 and getting a 3. Day two would result in 1d6-1 and getting a
4. Day three - well, and so on and so on. But as I look at the formula on
page 24, it states "Current Freight Volume" as the header for a paragraph,
and reads:
Current Volume = Average Volume + [(Current Price - Average Price)/Price
Volatility] + Volume Volatility
As the key reads:
Current Volume = Average daily volume this week (I presume this means the
roll against chart on page 16)
Last Volunme = The daily volume last week (precisely 1 week ago, or the
average of the last week's volume?)
Volume Volatility: Volatility number for the world's freight volume
Price Roll = The result of the price roll under current freight rate rules
Average Volume = the average volume for the origin's world with the
destination world.
Giving values for the above variables:
Average Volume = 3
Current price = 735
Average price = 700
Price Volatility = 17.5 (or .025 * 700)
Volume Volatility = .75 (or 3 * .25)
Current volume = 3 + [(735-700)/17.5] + .75 or 3+35/17.5 + .75 = 5.75
Am I making sense here?
As for the issue of Terms of Shipping? On pages 26 through 27, we find
that the rules indicate the Captain or Purser is supposed to bid on which
cargo lots they want to carry in their hold. From there, they roll against
their Merchant skill to see just how much income they derive from carrying
said cargo lot. The Terms of shipping modify the Merchant skill roll such
that if you bid on a cargo that is DFD, you gain a +3 bonus to your
merchant skill roll. If one assumes that one is taking a moderately
hazardous cargo (good for perhaps a +2 bonus) plus a DFD cargo, the
captain's merchant skill roll is increased from his base by a total of +5.
Thus, a captain with a skill of 14 modified to 19, rolling a 10 on his
roll, will earn 1.2 times the given amount of income for his cargo lot bid.
If you look at page 55 on the chart, it shows that the only time the
captain is responsible for the cargo is when the goods are being
transported outright. At no point in time do you see that the carrier is
required to ship the goods directly to a "named place on the destination
world" for a DFD. The only other assumption I can make is that when you
bid DFD as a carrier, you are actually offering to carry the cargo not only
to destination port, but also to the destination point.
By the by, has anyone seen what difference it makes to carry cargo in
GURPS FAR TRADER with respect towards how fragile the cargo is? If I take
something that is flamable and explosive, how do I determine if a mishap
potentially occurs? By having a roll against freight handling? What is
the difference between normal cargo and explosive cargo when rolling versus
Freight handling? Should I even bother to roll with any modifiers?
Perhaps all that happens is that when a player fails their freight handling
roll, some of the cargo is damaged. If explosive, then an exposion check
is made. If ordinary cargo, then it merely goes <Thud> or <crunch>.
Having a cargo go boom at the first failure seems a bit drastic. Perhaps
only on a crit failure does the explosive go boom, with ordinary failures
resulting in open containers? A character who then takes twice the
handling time gets a +2 to their handling skill roll, while something that
is rated as mildly hazardous might give a -2 to handling skill rolls?
Just musing here on the freight handling aspects...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:09:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
In mail you write:
> "Trevor, Peter" wrote:
>
>> 2) Democracies work by having the elected pander to the fleeting
>> whims of the masses.
>
> Thank you, Mr. Stalin.
No, that's true of every democracy that has ever existed. Which is why
the folks who set up the US explicitly *avoided* making it a democracy.
>> Restrictions need to be in place to protect minorities.
>
> Only if the majority wants to protect them.
Failing to do so is one of the prime reasons that democracies *fell*.
In essence, democracy is based on a badly flawed assumption. Namely,
that what the majority wants to do is the right thing to do.
When it's merely a matter of preferences ("Should we paint the building
blue or green?") it works well. When it's a matter of something that
affects people ("Should polygamy be legal?") it doesn't work very well.
And when it's a matter where there really *is* a "right answer", it
doesn't work worth a damn.
It merely makes the largest number of people *comfortable*.
Just as an example, consider that in the US (and probably most of the
other countries that this list has readers in) women are slightly in
the majority. Which means that if it ever came down to it, they *could*
vote to place restrictions on men.
>> Also, as a society becomes more
>> technical, knowledge becomes more specialised ... and the
>> subset of people who have a sound grasp of the issues of the
>> day shrinks. Thus the effectiveness of democracy declines as
>> tech level increases.
>
> I call B.S. on that. I think you're letting your views of the real
> world taint your imagination.
No, it's a major flaw of democracy. When the right answer to a question
*isn't* a matter of opinion, democracy is *totally* inappropriate.
>> Therefore for a TL15 political entity the size of the 3I would
>> have no choice but to abandon democratic principles as
>> unworkable, and replace it with a variation of the feudal
>> technocracy.
>
> Who says it has to be the size of the 3I? Who says the democratic
> mechanisms need to be similar to real world ones?
By *definition* the mechanisms are rather limited. And when you throw
in jump lag, democracry *can't* work. Some form of *representative*
government can. But even if the representatives are elected, that
doesn't make the government a democracy.
> Member worlds could select Senators based on whatever criteria
> or government type they want. The length of term of a Senator in
> the Imperial Senate might be 10, 20 or even 30 years. A President
> could be elected by the Senate every 10 or so years.
And that's *not* a democracy. It's a goverment with democractically
elected representatives. A very different creature.
> Democracy as fetish. You *are* Stalin, aren't you? :-P
Sad to say, it *is* a fetish. Or more properly, a religion.
People don't understand what a democracy *is*, and expect it to be able
to reach correct decision when the voters don't understand the issues.
Both of which are substituting *faith* for practicality.
>> What people want from their government is provision of safety and
>> prosparity, leaders who can deal effectively with the issues of
>> the day, and controls on abuse of power. Democracy is just a
>> distraction.
>
> So that's what I want! Thanks for reminding me.
Well, there are also people who want their government to give them a
share of other people's money, and to make other people conform to
their idea of what the "right way to live" is.
And that latter is the scariest aspect of democracy. Ask anybody who
has ever had laws passed that discriminate against "their kind". Or
even who has had such laws placed on the ballot where they live.
I've been there. And until you have, don't be so quick to claim
democracy as being the best form of government.
Yes, the same things or worse can happen under other forms of
government. That merely means that democracy is better than those other
forms, not that it is always (or even mostly) good or "right".
Majority rule sounds great until it's *your* blood the mob is howling for.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:47:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
In mail you write:
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
> "Lovely. Exactly the sort of injuries weapons designers *love*, because
> they are hard to treat in the field, and tie up lots of enemy resources."
>
>
> Mr. Erickson,
> On a related subject, can't low powered lasers currently be used to
> blind? I got this nagging memory of attempts to blind pilots with them.
Oh certainly. But that's an "illegal" use of them, as I understand
things.
Also, if you know the frequency of the laser, protecting against
*those* power levels is trivial. A half-wave (or is it qurater wave?)
coating on the pilot's visor will reflect virtually all of that
wavelength, without affecting any others.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:44:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Geophysical/Climate question
In mail you write:
> Hello Jeff,
> Based on what I've read about what happens when you get a really HUGE
> volcanic erruption - the planet enters into a mini-ice age. What happens
> is that the particles suspended in the atmosphere raise the albedo of the
> planet such that some of the light is reflected back out. As for more rain
> and the like? I am guessing that is entirely at the whim of how much water
> vapor is found in the air at that point in time.
The trick is that rain clouds are in the troposphere. And thus, the
dust washes out quickly. Dust in the *stratosphere* lingers for
extended periods.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:58:31 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Geophysical/Climate question
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
"Try global *cooling*. A *single* volcanic eruption resulted in "the
year without a summer" back in 1815(?). And comparison of modern geological
dating of eruptions with historical records shows other
occurences."
"The basic mechanism is that the eruption throws a lot of *very fine*
dust into the stratosphere. Where it hangs around for a *long* time, cutting
off light to the surface."
I believe the odds on favorite for the volcano in question is located
in Indonesia. The years referred to was 1816. The growing season in North
America and Europe was severely curtailed. There were records of snow fall
during the month of July in New Hampshire (a US state in the New England
region).
There have been other climate changes that cannot be linked to
catastrophic events; the Little Ice Age on Europe's early 1600's is one. It
snuffed out the remaining Norse colonies in Greenland. During the two(?)
decades in question the North Sea froze on a regualr basis.
Larsen
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3713
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Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 20 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3714
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Democracy Now!
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: A Lucky Find?
Re: Megatraveller & CT (longish)
Re: Geophysical/Climate question
Re: Copyright Laws
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: fencing
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Copyright Laws
re: Nobles and the Imperium
Re: Megatraveller & CT (longish)
re: Lawyers rule the Imperium!
Re: fencing
Banana Now!
Re: Nasty cargo bays...
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Civility and Politeness
Re: Banana Now!
Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Re: fencing
Re: En Garde
Re: fencing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:04:36 -0600 (CST)
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> 1) Democracies require timely communication between the
> electorate and the elected. For low tech worlds this limits
> the effective size of countries. For the Imperium it would
> limit the size of effective government to roughly the
> subsector scale.
Why? Just elect your representative, send him to Capital for a few years,
and trust that he'll vote the right way. Nobles vote in the Moot all the
time without the latest information about their homeworlds, right? Of
course, this means that elections will be decided less on the basis of
stands on particular issues than on the question of the candidate's
integrity and ability to make the right decision without checking the
polls, but is this such a bad thing?
> 2) Democracies work by having the elected pander to the fleeting
> whims of the masses.
I think you wrote "work" where you meant to write "fail." Fortunately,
the communications lag will help prevent this since the representative
will have to wait several months for the latest polls.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:04:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Leonard Erickson writes:
> Also, if you know the frequency of the laser, protecting against
> *those* power levels is trivial. A half-wave (or is it qurater wave?)
> coating on the pilot's visor will reflect virtually all of that
> wavelength, without affecting any others.
Not to mention that they're working on microsecond filtering devices, which
can automatically darken to prevent damage.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:05:33 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
> Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
> Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.
It's not working. I want my money/soul/whatever back.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:07:35 -0500
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Megatraveller & CT (longish)
Michael Daumen wrote:
> In y'all's opinion, what in the Megatraveller universe can be
>readily applied to an CT/GT campaign? Some has been said about Fighting
>Ships of the Shattered Imperium and the COACC manual, but what of the Rebellion
>Sourcebook, Encyclopedia or Diaspora Sector?
GDW-material
MT Player & Referee Handbooks: the rules; with the errata it's my Trav-system of choice
Imperial Encyclopedia: Library Data, mostly the same info as CT supp. 8 & 11 or the GT book.
Referee's Companion: miscellaneous rules and background, most of which can be applied to any era. Probably the most broadly useful for non-MT/rebellion games
Rebellion Sourcebook: lots o' setting-specific background; some material on fleets, nobility, etc. with broader applicability, most of which will probably be plundered/superseded by upcoming GT books
COACC: detailed info on a narrow focus; I never really used this book, but AFAIK it wasn't broken
Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium: landfill material, as bad as the worst of T4
Knightfall: adventure in DGP-style; too tightly-scripted for my tastes, but there are lift-able scenes and ideas
Hard Times: really a seperate setting; very interesting but not a whole lot to apply to other settings (except maybe TNE)
Assignment Vigilante: Hard Times supplement; don' really remember it
Diaspora Sector: world info for Hard Times-era
Arrival Vengeance: ties-up the Rebellion storyline
DGP-material
101 Vehicles: worthless to non-MT refs; opinions vary otherwise (several dubious designs)
Starship Op. Manual: controversial 'pseudo-science' combined with valuable anecdotal detail; if we're lucky GT Starships will be this good
World Builder's Handbook: once indispensible, since trumped by GT First In; still very worthwhile
Referee's Kit: nothing necessary for non-MT games
Vilani & Vargr/Solomani & Aslan: superseded by GT Alien Modules; detail on Vilani differs significantly from other canon sources
Flaming Eye: Vilani & Vargr-themed adventures; top-notch IMO
Err... did I miss anything? In summary: of the GDW books you'd probably find use for the main rules and the Ref Companion, everything else can be done without. Pretty much all of the DGP material is good, but don't expect it to match what's come out since.
Anyhow, hope this helped.
Trent
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:11:54 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Geophysical/Climate question
Hello Leonard,
>
>The trick is that rain clouds are in the troposphere. And thus, the
>dust washes out quickly. Dust in the *stratosphere* lingers for
>extended periods.
What mechanism brings the dust from the Stratosphere down to lower levels?
I suspect <sheepish grin> that it is gravity - but what keeps it up there
in defiance of gravity?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:08:31 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright Laws
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
"Well, by operation of the Berne Treaty on Copyright, US law on the
subject isn't that different from most other countires. So nothing is
particularly 'wrong' about it."
Bloo, Esq.,
Thanks for the quick turn around on this one. I must have misread or
misunderstood the original post.
I thought I'd sniffed up a nice adventure that wouldn't involve too
much "boom boom" on the PCs part.
Thanks again.
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:12:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Just as an example, consider that in the US (and probably most of the
> other countries that this list has readers in) women are slightly in
> the majority. Which means that if it ever came down to it, they *could*
> vote to place restrictions on men.
I'm not sure that some of the whackier anti-porn laws don't qualify,
although technically and in some cases actually they restrict both
genders.
> Well, there are also people who want their government to give them a
> share of other people's money, and to make other people conform to
> their idea of what the "right way to live" is.
>
> And that latter is the scariest aspect of democracy. Ask anybody who
> has ever had laws passed that discriminate against "their kind". Or
> even who has had such laws placed on the ballot where they live.
>
> I've been there. And until you have, don't be so quick to claim
> democracy as being the best form of government.
Yea, verily. Me too.
> Majority rule sounds great until it's *your* blood the mob is howling for.
Can I put that on my quotes page, Leonard?
Kiri ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:12:30 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
>>On a related subject, can't low powered lasers currently be used to blind?
>
>No, blinding is explicitly forbidden under the Geneva Convention.
But that applies only to uniformed combatants, yes? Back before I left
GEnie, there was some discussion (from those who would know) of a laser that
could trace back along the path of a bullet and blind the shooter. It was
designed with stopping "francs-tireuers" in mind.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:14:35 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: fencing
Pat Connaughton wrote:
> Always prefered the cutlass or a modified gladius myself,
> better for close in work.
Someone with a rapier would have your kidneys for shish-kebab before you
got close enough to use either.
Someone with a main-gauche and rapier would not only have them but have
sliced them into nice filets with fava beans and a nice chianti ;-P
http://www.armory.net/item.cfm?RecordId=WS-H9
For close-in work you have the main-gauche.
http://www.armory.net/Dagger001.htm
Though my favorites are at http://www.museumreplicas.com <drool>
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:16:01 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 20 Feb 2001, at 3:50, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> As the military is forced to handle more and more technical duties,
> determining pay rates without taking into account the actual job being
> performed is asinine. We already pay pilots, divers, demo experts more, way
> not the hard to fill tech rates? Heck, why not ALL hard to fill rates more?
> The USN has far too many typewriter bangers and cooks, but far too few
> bosuns. Might "bosun pay" entice a few more into the rate? The Army could
> use the same device to flesh out it's infantry ranks.
Is this in whole or in part due to changing technology, in your
opinion? If so, how would this play in the TU where tech changes so
slowly for the last hundred if not 1000 years? Or does that have
nothing to do with it (and it's purely the economics of available
resources in various locations/jobs/etc.)?
Rob D.
- --
Rob
vi is my sheperd; i shall not font.
-- Wm.Julien
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:15:36 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright Laws
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
"Basically, strong copyright laws benefit the publisher. Countries
with substantial publishing industries will thus usually have stronger
copyright laws than those without significant publishing industries.
There's no obvious moral framework involved here."
Mr. Jackson,
Thank you sir for your response. I was nosing around for an adventure
seed and not making a moral "judgement" on the enforcement or
non-enforcement of copyrights.
China's army currently operates hundreds of facilities that priate
western software, music recordings, videos, etc. as a way to supplement
their budget. The tacit approval of this operation by the government there
is one of several stumblng blocks for China's WTO membership.
I can easily see a world in the 3I or one just over the border, who
derive a large percentage of their off-world income by similar means.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:20:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Nobles and the Imperium
>From: hal@buffnet.net
> I know Loren is writing a book on the Imperial Nobles, but
>perhaps we can spark his creative juices (as if he needed that right?
><wink>) by asking questions or putting forth ideas on how we see the
>institution for our own traveller universes...
Here is my Cr0.02:
The nobility did not spring fully formed from the mind of Zeus. It is the
product of a very long history (on the order of 10,000 years). The Ziru
Sirka had a hereditary management class, which was essentially a nobility.
The Terrans conquered the Ziru Sirka and placed military governors with
small forces over the various worlds and regions of the Ziru Sirka. Far
from home and without orders for long periods of time, these military
governors chose their own successors, eventually establishing hereditary
offices. When the Rule of Man was established, it confirmed and to some
extent regulated this practice and thus created the first official
post-Vilani nobility.
The Rule of Man collapsed into the Long Night. Many nobles continued to
rule as they had before. Some new ones created themselves in the chaos.
The Ziru Sirkan nobility had never been suppressed de jure, only de facto
and then only partially. It was able to reassert itself, especially in
Vland sector, during the Long Night.
When Cleon started the Third Imperium, he generally preserved the status
quo, thus bringing the existing nobility of annexed regions into his camp,
and aiding his conquest of this region of space. He also created a large
number of new nobles, in order to create a faction that would be even more
loyal to him and would outnumber the existing Ziru Sirkan and Terran
nobility.
By 1100, a bewildering mix of titles, powers, fiefs, and heraldry
characterizes the state of the nobility. It is a perfect setting for
role-playing.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:30:52 -0600
From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
Subject: Re: Megatraveller & CT (longish)
At 03:07 PM 2/20/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium: landfill material, as bad as the
worst of T4
What we needed IMO was MERCHANTS AND PATROL SHIPS OF THE SHATTERED IMPERIUM.
Les
=======================================================
Objects on screen may be more hostile than they appear.
=======================================================
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:23:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Lawyers rule the Imperium!
>From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
>Now, if everyone really does want to know, I will be happy
>to TELL all of you just how the Imperial Court system works for the
>modest fee of $250 per hour
I never paid any of my law professors that much.
- --Glenn
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:23:36 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: fencing
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
"Mr. Urbin, I most likely have speeld that incorrectly."
Mr. Urbin,
Thank you sir. Apparently, as you can see above, I cannot spell
"spelled" correctly either.!
"Other "off hand" blades included things like:
1) a very large guard to protect the hand,
2) extra 'trapping' blades (usually two, set at 45 degrees from the
main blade, allowing you to trap a foe's blade in the manner of a Juite
or Sai).
3) A heavy cloak was also often used as an off hand weapon. It's used
not only to stop the blade, but also to trap/entangle it and to distract
your foe."
Looks like there's quite a bit of reading left to do justice to dueling
in my Land Grab entry.
Thanks again!
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:30:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Banana Now!
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > Member worlds could select Senators based on whatever criteria
> > or government type they want. The length of term of a Senator in
> > the Imperial Senate might be 10, 20 or even 30 years. A President
> > could be elected by the Senate every 10 or so years.
>
> And that's *not* a democracy. It's a goverment with democractically
> elected representatives. A very different creature.
Call it what you want. I'll call it a banana (see subject). I submit
that is ought to replace the Imperial system, since the communication lag is
no problem for it and it's clearly more democratic.
> Majority rule sounds great until it's *your* blood the mob is howling for.
Of course democracy can lead to evil. What form of government hasn't at
some point in history? Certainly not the Imperial system. Replace that
mob with Emperor Strephon, and if you're in Imperial jurisdiction you're
still going to bleed. I still believe that a democracy, moderated by
constitutional limits on the government's power, is the wisest course.
Or if you don't care for my rambling, Winston Churchill said it best:
"Many forms of government have been tried, and will be tried in this world
of sin and woe.
No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has
been said that
democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms
that have been
tried from time to time."
Greg Kettler
"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you
may not actually need an explicit loop exit. The loop will be terminated
automatically at the appropriate moment."
-Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:30:26 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Nasty cargo bays...
ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote
>
> > On 17 Feb 2001, at 22:53, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
> >
> > > ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> > > > Ok,what the heck is a groat?? LOL.
> > >
> > > A groat is an alien animal which, due to some amazing coincidence, is
> > > remarkably similiar to a goat or sheep...
> >
> > Or it's an old English silver coin of four pence value.
>
> Or it's a grain based food product, often made of buckwheat,
> most commonly consumed as a breakfast cereal.
>
> hhhmmm......what would the overhead be on a bulk shipment of that??
> Interesting.
>
Yeah, especially if, as grain shipments often do, it comes with pests: rats, mice, insects.
Rats loose in a starship...not a lot of fun!
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:30:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:
> > I've been there. And until you have, don't be so quick to claim
> > democracy as being the best form of government.
>
> Yea, verily. Me too.
It's worth noting that the US is not a democracy (in fact, I can't think of
any large political entity ever that has truly been a democracy). The US
is a constitutional republic.
In practice, it isn't obvious that the Imperium is an empire anyway; the power
actually isn't really concentrated at the top, like a proper empire. If Mora
decides to withhold its military taxes, the entire sector fleet can't really
force it to change its mind. Particularly if you actually want to defend the
sector at the same time. As a result, member worlds really do have a
significant say in the actions of the empire.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:32:59 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
"No, blinding is explicitly forbidden under the Geneva Convention."
Gee, just like unrestricted submarine warfare, poison gas, dropping
bombs from aircraft, shotguns, dum-dums, and a few others items.
Just like you Mr. Johnson, I have very little faith in any nation
following these Conventions even with the fear of getting caught. They'll
always have an excuse.
"Oh no, High Commissioner! That laser system is used to clean the
windshields of our aircraft while in flight. We'd never use it to BLIND
anyone! Our windshield wiper techs must have mistaken the enemy aircraft
for ours and the poor quality of the enemy windshields let them get blinded,
that's all. It's just too bad that it happened over and opver and over and
over..."
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:43:05 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness
Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote
> James wrote:
> >Though in my experience, the only reliable sub killers are submarines
> >themselves....
>
> Actually, the best sub-killer is a P3 Orion.
> <grin>
Actually the best sub-killer is budget cuts, which have
killed far more subs than Orion's ever have.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:56:30 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Banana Now!
On Tuesday, February 20, 2001 12:30 PM
Gregory Carl Kettler said,
> Or if you don't care for my rambling, Winston Churchill said it best:
> "Many forms of government have been tried, and will be tried in this world
of sin and woe.
> No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been
said that
> democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms
> that have been tried from time to time."
That wasn't Winston Churchill, it was Mary Albright from Third Rock from the
sun.
"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the rest of
them."
;)
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Minion of SheChemist and GothBunny
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
===========================
"A witty saying proves nothing." -Voltaire
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:54:03 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
On 19 Feb 2001, at 23:58, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Foils are *only* used in sport fencing, and started out as a practice
> weapon for epee training. They are *totally* unsuitable for duel of the
> sort described, especially when "long daggers" are being used in the
> off hand. Foils are just too easy to *break* if blocked by that dagger.
>
> At least the above is what my friends who fence told me.
Yes, foils started as training weapons. I would think it possible a
weapon of similar shape (length and thinness of blade) that could be
made with [more advanced/different] materials (I forget the TL of Lehar
if it was mentioned). It could be faster than the heavier epee and
still have some decent penetration if so stiffened.
It might also generate more scars (be easier to give a scar-
generating wound instead of deeper death-inflicting wounds), maybe
making the first blood options more prevalent (depending on the
temprament of the natives).
The off-hand dagger could also be similarly light and thin, which
would affect it's use in the duel as well (quick secondary attacks
versus disarms).
Rob ("hopefully not a Master of the Obvious") D.
- --
Rob
'C program run. C program crash. C programmer quit.'
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:03:03 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: fencing
Pat Connaughton <patconnaughton@earthlink.net> writes:
>Always prefered the cutlass or a modified gladius myself,
>better for close in work.
Pat, you make me regret that the family blade collection is stored
instead of mounted on the wall (as they were in our previous home.)
Lori and I have edged weapons ranging from dirks to 2-handed
great swords, with about everything in between (including a lovely
gladius-sized short sword, a couple of Katanas, and a really wicked,
double-bit battle axe we had forged in England.) Sigh.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:11:45 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: En Garde
>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: Re: En Garde
>
>On 19 Feb 2001, at 19:22, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to allow for
>> female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever Amber_ and _Desiree_.
>> Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing the king even moreso, but both
>> had their rewards.
>
>Ohhh Ohh Ohhh, see must have. I suppose that these have long since
>disappeared into the great void of "might-have-been" (he says really really
>hoping for an answer in the negative).
Mon freres,
I fear we have no choice. We can, nay, must free France from the tyrrany that is the lazy, corrupt
Jansenists that have the King in their thrall.
Oh, and that coat, m'sieur it is c'est bon.
Ian Whitchurch
PS I know it is OT, but I feel we have no choice but to start an En Garde PBEM. Who is reffing ?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:12:38 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: fencing
Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> writes:
>"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> puts into the Ether:
> > >From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
> > "If you actually want to cause damage, use an epee'or light rapier."
> >Mr. Urbin,
> > Is the long dagger called a "poignard"? I most likely have speeld
> that
> >incorrectly.
> > Larsen
>
>Close enough, and yes, it could be called that.
>Another term is Main Gauche.
Mark, at the risk of picking nits, a poignard/poniard is not the same as a
main gauche. They have different designs and serve different functions.
A poignard is a small thrusting dagger having a blade of square or triangular
cross-section and no cutting edge per se. As such it is only useful as a
thrusting weapon. Also, they typically have little or nothing in the way of
a hilt, making them of little use as a parrying tool.
The main gauche, OTOH, was designed specifically to be an off-hand
secondary weapon/parrying tool. The blade is of conventional cross-section
and is straight and double-edged. The hilt is strong, wide, and frequently
includes prongs or grooves designed to catch and, potentially, break the
blade of an opponents weapon. There is also almost always a pommel
to protect the hand of the wielder.
Just FYI.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3714
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3715
Date: | 2/20/01 3:00:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 20 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3715
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Don't run...
Noblesse oblige
Re: Copyright Laws
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
Re: Source Code request?
Re: Geophysical/Climate question
re: Democracy Now!
Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Re: Copyright Laws
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
Re: Democracy Now!
RE: Ship habitability
re: fencing
Re: Copyright Laws
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Democracy Now!
[www] 20 Feb 2001 - Freelance Traveller Updated
unsubscribe traveller-digest
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
Re: fencing
Re: fencing
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: fencing
Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:15:59 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Don't run...
>>> What is that they say on the c-130 gunships "Don't run away, you'll only
>>> die tired"
This is more commonly a line used by snipers (predominantly USMC, since
they are far superior to the other branches of service, right Doug?)
Other quotes include "Reach out and touch someone" and "Sniper: the next
best thing to being there."
- Mark C.
USMC EOD: Destroyed in 30 minutes or the next one's FREE!
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:22:30 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: Noblesse oblige
> As for other tasks entrusted to Barons and/or Dukes? I see them as tax
> collectors as well as administrators to the Emperor's will. If a Baron is
> instructed "I want you to build a planetary defense net for your planet,
> deduct the costs from the tax money you collect, and pass on the remainder
> to me" then that is what the Baron does. He may approach his superior
> saying "I see a need for a planetary defense grid upgrade for my planet,
> may I do so?" in the hopes that he can do just that. If not, he may dig
> into his own personal estates and tell the local planetary governments
"You
> need to build a defense grid. I will match you credit for credit, but
only
> if you build with the following minimums".
>
Don't they have to assist or even command the military in times of war, or
at least defense?
>
> Another thing I see as being the case for the power of nobility is that
> they are judged by a different set of laws than normal imperial citizens.
> Any case that includes a noble in it is *required* to be heard by other
> more higher ranking nobles. In disputes between Barons, it requires a
Duke
> to adjucate. In cases with Knights, it requires a Baron (or if two
> different knights on two planets, two barons, who in turn take it to their
> superior, the Duke if they can't resolve it to their mutual satisfaction).
>
The average joe may believe that nobles are a better cut of man who can make
weighty decisions with the best interests of the Imperium in mind, so they
deserve the benefits they get. Others have eloquently stated that this
standard may not be met when nobles have a stake in the affairs they handle.
>
> So what else is left for the Nobility? Do they command Vast numbers of
> people - whole planets or countries? I very much doubt it. Can they
> affect vast numbers of people? I do not doubt they can. Someone who owns
> a city block's worth of territory in an industrial manufacturing sector
> very likely controls the actions of many people. By using his capital,
> such a person may expand much like a corporation does. If a Knight is
> wealthy enough, he can use his status within the culture to advance
himself
> - - and far more effectively than perhaps a Rockerfeller or Gates might do
> <grin>.
>
Social Standing is worth something, if only good benefits when you muster
out. I would think a party with very high Soc would not have the same
adventures most Traveller characters experience. Something more like Pocket
Empires.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:14:44 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright Laws
> > Gentlemen,
> > One of the posts in the Imperial legal frameworks thread mentioned
> > copyright laws, specifically the fact that most nations ignore US
statutes
> > in that area.
>
> > Could one of the TML Legal Dream Team address this please? What is
> > wrong about the US take on copyright protections that the rest of the
world
> > simply ignores them? Or is the idea that US copyright law is
"incorrect"
> > just a handy fig leaf to explain away widespread software, video, music,
and
> > any other type of media piracy?
>
I don't think it's a question of right or wrong; just that piracy is a good
source of income for nations that practice it (like a Communist, Heavily
Industrializing, Nominally Agricultural country for purposes of
idenfication). Pirates don't need to pay royalties, so all it costs to make
knock-offs is the price of materials, and maybe one copy of the thing being
pirated.
>
> Basically, strong copyright laws benefit the publisher. Countries with
> substantial publishing industries will thus usually have stronger
copyright
> laws than those without significant publishing industries. There's no
> obvious moral framework involved here.
>
The creator of the copyrighted material also benefits, in the form of
royalties that publisher pays to disseminate the work. The US Constitution
says that intellectual property rights will "promote the Progress of Science
and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the
exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."
TML Legal Dream Team. Yeah. I like it.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:32 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
In-Reply-To: <10220.024825.9E2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
At Gen Con UK last summer I was standing chatting to a certain Gary Gygax,
who was the guest of honour. A chap I didn't know came up and said "Hey
are you Mexal?", totally ignoring Gary (who was quite glad, he'd sneaked
out for a smoke!). When I responded in the affirmative, this fellow
nattered for a bit, then asked me how long I'd been roleplaying. "Since
1977" I said.
He turned to Gary, having belatedly realised I was in conversation with
someone when he'd arrived on the scene. "How about you, how long?" he
asked. "Oh, about 1970" said Gary.
"Surely not" said the oik. "Nothing had been published then! What were
you using for rules?"
"Oh, about 30 pages of manuscript" said Gary, totally deadpan. Then we
took pity (?) on the oik and told him who Gary was :-)
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:31 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Source Code request?
In-Reply-To: <20010220182602.Z2168@freeman.little-possums.net>
Greetings dear hearts, especially Tim
Fret not - nice piece of code. Probably wouldn't have asked, but of having
received it it has been tucked safely away :-)
Thanks.
TechSgt Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:32 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Geophysical/Climate question
In-Reply-To: <10220.095120.8g4.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
It's going to be cold and dark... plant life is NOT going to like it. This
will affect atmospheric balances: if it's cold plants don't grow fast but
if it's dark they find it hard to photosynthesise. As you probably know,
when a plant is actively photosynthesising, the net outcome is that it
takes in carbon dioxide and gives out oxygen. But if it cannot, then it
takes in oxygen and gives out carbon dioxide just like you do and for the
same reason - it's breathing! So oxygen levels go down...
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:32 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: re: Democracy Now!
In-Reply-To: <20010220193818.40569.qmail@web10001.mail.yahoo.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
I must confess to a less-than-strictly-canon TRAVELLER universe...
But the nearest contemporary-Earth analogue to the way the politics work
is the UN, or at least, the UN the way it was intended rather than the way
it worked out.
Most individual planets, or sometimes groups of planets, have a government
- - sort of a planet-wide nation state. These may have all manner of forms,
democratic or otherwise. (I had one player, who liked politics in the
'real world' too, who wandered around in his free trader joining political
parties on each world he visited!)
The role of the Imperium is to arbitrate or police inter-planetary
disputes, regulate trade, explore, run major spaceports, licence ships &
certain professions (spacemen, medical doctors...) and stuff like that.
The Imperial Armed Forces exist mainly for the policing role. (Just don't
say that to an IN man, he'll belt you. The Army and Marines realise their
role a bit better, but us gropos tend to be pragmatic!)
Legal matters are dealt with on the planet in question under its laws,
unless it is a dispute that spreads over several planets. I'm sure you've
seen legal agreements that say something about 'in case of dispute this
contract will be settled according to the laws of X country' (she says
trying to remember the wording of my PENDRAGON sourcebook contract which
has done a runner from where I thought it was...). Only really big law
cases or points of law that get appealed and appealed and appealed get out
of the planetary courts and reach sub-sector or sector levels.
Enought whittering...
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:32 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
In-Reply-To: <10219.235836.4z5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Greetings dear hearts, especially Leonard.
Thanks for that thought... I'll go upstairs and ask my dearly beloved, who
used to be a fencer.
Erm. Maybe they call them foils but they are actually a bit more robust
than those things they use in the average salle des arms. Potential for
terminology confusion if some hapless PC is challenged and told he needs
to use a 'foil' and turns up with something raided from the fencing
locker in the gym!
My excuse is I've only fought 'blade weapons' with a longsword! Never done
the 'sport' sort of fencing.
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 13:36:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright Laws
Michael Daumen writes:
> The creator of the copyrighted material also benefits, in the form of
> royalties that publisher pays to disseminate the work. The US Constitution
> says that intellectual property rights will "promote the Progress of
> Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and
> Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."
I was sort of merging the writer and the publisher, which is inaccurate.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:45:42 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
> > Gentlemen, please bear in mind I was part of the creative team for TNE . . .
> > thank you.
> We've (mostly) forgiven you, Loren :-)
Ha! You know *some* of us actually liked TNE. <g>
> I guess you've never heard Isaac Asomov's story about the time he was
> in a class (or possibly a seinar of some sort) where some litcrit type
> (or possibly literature professor) was going on about one of Asimov's
> books. Isaac put forth an opinion contrary to the prof's regarding the
> author's intent with regards to some plot element. This lead to an
> exchange alone the following lines:
> Prof: "And on what do you base *that* conclusion?"
> Asimov: "I wrote the book!"
> Prof: "So? That doesn't mean you know why you did it!"
> When dealing with critics or lit types, you *can't* win.
Reminds me of a story about e e cummings. He was at a party and some
literia started waxing poetic about the political symbolism in one of
cummings' poems. cummings took out a notebook and wrote all of it down.
Later when asked why he paid so much attention to the guy's thoughts,
cummings said, "It's priceless. With a bit of polish, I can turn drivel
like that into a ninety minute lecture suitable for presentation at any
university in the world."...or words to that effect. <g>
Eris
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:54:04 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > Who says it has to be the size of the 3I? Who says the democratic
> > mechanisms need to be similar to real world ones?
>
> By *definition* the mechanisms are rather limited. And when you throw
> in jump lag, democracry *can't* work.
Has anyone tried? And I never said it had to be a *Successful* democratic
revolution.
> > Member worlds could select Senators based on whatever criteria
> > or government type they want. The length of term of a Senator in
> > the Imperial Senate might be 10, 20 or even 30 years. A President
> > could be elected by the Senate every 10 or so years.
>
> And that's *not* a democracy. It's a goverment with democractically
> elected representatives. A very different creature.
I only said twice that I wanted a democratic revolution to result in
a federal republic style situation. I can said it a third, err, fourth time.
;-)
> Majority rule sounds great until it's *your* blood the mob is howling for.
Which is why it needs a counter-revolution. :-)
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:55:06 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
>From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
> "The surface and sub communities are completely different kettles of
>fish. One has to volunteer for sub duty and then go to lots of schools
>and special training."
>
>Mr. Harris,
> Except for nucs, alas.
> I distinctly remember ICs being folded into the EM ranks during my
>tour. The nuc ICs were all ticked off about having to buy new "crows" for
>their uniforms. The one or two DC types had the same squawk.
> Are both these rates "hanging on" in the reserve formations?
>
>
> Larsen
Not just hanging on in the reserves. IC techs have been transferred from the
engineering to the combat system group, where they work on electronics,
mostly dealing with things like wind sensors, helo landing systems on small
boys (that's any ship that's not a carrier, but has helos), telephone
systems (all solid state now days) and the like.
The DC rate was re-instituted when the USN realized that every member of the
crew might be responsible for knowing damage control, but somebody needs to
be the expert, who trains everyone else. Most ships have a small cadre of DC
ratings, who give advice to everyone else on the maintenance of damage
control equipment, and act as trainers.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:02:06 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: re: fencing
>Mark, at the risk of picking nits, a poignard/poniard is not the same as a
>main gauche. They have different designs and serve different functions.
Not a nit picked. Entirely correct. I was avoiding a detailed scholarly
work until I got home and use my reference books to make sure I spelled the
hard word correctly. :-)
>A poignard is a small thrusting dagger having a blade of square or triangular
>cross-section and no cutting edge per se. As such it is only useful as a
>thrusting weapon. Also, they typically have little or nothing in the way of
>a hilt, making them of little use as a parrying tool.
If I remember correctly, very useful for finishing off Knights in plate armor.
Especially ones recently & violently de-horsed. While they were still
stunned, run up and jam the poignard repeatedly through the cracks in the
joints of the armor & any openings in the helmet.
>The main gauche, OTOH, was designed specifically to be an off-hand
>secondary weapon/parrying tool. The blade is of conventional cross-section
>and is straight and double-edged. The hilt is strong, wide, and frequently
>includes prongs or grooves designed to catch and, potentially, break the
>blade of an opponents weapon. There is also almost always a pommel
>to protect the hand of the wielder.
Yup, I've seen some wild designs for these things. I'll have to check my
copy of Sir Burton's book on swords at home.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions should be yours too! - http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"What's a FAQ? Boy, I wish someone would put a list of answers
for common questions such as this..."
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:04:51 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright Laws
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Michael Daumen writes:
>
> > The creator of the copyrighted material also benefits, in the form of
> > royalties that publisher pays to disseminate the work. The US Constitution
> > says that intellectual property rights will "promote the Progress of
> > Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and
> > Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."
>
> I was sort of merging the writer and the publisher, which is inaccurate.
Not necessarily. The right to publish belongs to the author, unless
it's a work made for hire.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:07:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
Steve (Bloo) Daniels writes:
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> > By *definition* the mechanisms are rather limited. And when you throw
> > in jump lag, democracry *can't* work.
>
> Has anyone tried? And I never said it had to be a *Successful* democratic
> revolution.
I think the real problem here is that Leonard is assuming 'democracy' is
'direct democracy', which generally doesn't work on any large scale. There's
no theoretical reason why a representative or parliamentary democracy can't
work; obviously, representatives won't be very subject to the short-term
whims of the people who are represented, but that's not necessary in any case.
For a practical interstellar democracy, just look at the Zhodani model, but
let everyone vote, not just the nobles (the Zhodani model is functionally a
representative democracy with limited citizenship).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:18:17 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Harris" <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
To: "'DaveShayne '" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:35 AM
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
> In one of my campaigns I am presently running in the Solomani Rim after
> the collapse of the Imperium has a political entitiy called the Union of
> Solomani Socialist Republics. (USSR... )
>
> It becomes so easy for the players to understand whats going on, that
> is, until they find out that the top echelons of the Party consists
> mainly of humanoid lizards sharing a group mind via a parasitic host.
>
> Just thought I would share...
ROFLMAO
Dave Shayne
"Every day my metal friend
Shakes my bed at 6 AM (Wake up)
Then the shiny servant clones
Running with my telephones."
"Living in the Plastic Age" - Horn/Downes
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:18:36 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: [www] 20 Feb 2001 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller® Resource has
posted its most recent update to http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm.
In this update:
- Chapter twelve of _The_Hostile_Stars_, Fred Ramen's ongoing serial
story, has been posted to Raconteur's Rest.
- A new section of the Critic's Corner has been opened. You can find
five website reviews in LinkLooks.
- Ken Pick presents an analysis of cost-effectiveness of selected
starships. Find it in The Shipyard.
- Updates to the Infocenter, Traveller on the Internet - specifically,
additional links, plus noting which sites have been reviewed in
LinkLooks.
Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller. Please write to freelancetraveller@yahoo.com with any and all
of them, as we are in the process of reconfiguring the forms, and they may
be temporarily disabled. Freelance Traveller depends on the good will of
Traveller fans both to visit our site and justify our existence, and to
write for us, making our existence possible.
Freelance Traveller is mirrored at http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz.
Freelance Traveller wishes to extend its thanks and appreciation to The
Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com) and to Executive Network
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organizations willing to cooperate with Freelance Traveller's ever-growing
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®Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture
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this notice and in the referenced materials is not
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- --
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller® Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:17:53 -0500
From: "Guy Lemire" <guylemire.associes@videotron.ca>
Subject: unsubscribe traveller-digest
unsubscribe traveller-digest
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:27:49 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
On 20 Feb 2001, at 17:05, Eamon Patrick Watters wrote:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com sent:
>
> >> I'm with you, partner. Screw Virus! Who spiked the water cooler
> >> when they came up with that one!??!
> >> Here's a list for you; New Coke, the Edsel, and Virus.
>
> Gentlemen, please bear in mind I was part of the creative team for TNE . .
> .
> thank you.
>
> And for that alone you have my eternal thanks!
>
> Eamon Watters, TNE Acolyte.
Aye. TNE brought me back to Traveller after a four year departure caused by
irritation with MT. While the RC, Regency and Virus aren't how I would've done
it, they are probably more useful for that - even if I don't use 'em I can mine
them.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:41:15 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: fencing
On 20 Feb 2001, at 11:39, Pat Connaughton wrote:
> Always prefered the cutlass or a modified gladius myself,
> better for close in work.
I always preferred an M16 - good from 0 to 400 metres. For longer ranged work a
LSW is nice, they're good from 5 to 600 metres. :)
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:49:19 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: fencing
> > Always prefered the cutlass or a modified gladius myself,
> > better for close in work.
> Someone with a rapier would have your kidneys for shish-kebab before you
> got close enough to use either.
>
> Someone with a main-gauche and rapier would not only have them but have
> sliced them into nice filets with fava beans and a nice chianti ;-P
>
Unfortunately, most of the weapons out there are horribly heavy and
unbalanced.
For what it's worth, thrusting weapons are generally mor lethal than
choppers (e.g. cultlass). The Romans understood this, and used the Gladius
primarily as a thrusting weapon. The same for the Zulu short spear. The
human skeleton is marvelously designed to fend of slashing attacks.
However, it should be pointed out that slashing attacks to the limbs and
neck are very debilitating, provided the weapon is sharp enough to slice
tissue rather thand just producing a nasty pressure cut.
Personally, I favor a nice light infantry sabre :no curve, excellent thrust,
adequate cut and much more difficult to break than a rapier. Another
interesting weapon is the Kolischmarche, which has a foible like a rapier
and a forte like a light sword. This give a very quick weapon which can
parry fairly heavy blades.
Naturally, if you want to get serious in HTH combat, you want to pass on the
swords altogether and go straight to the crushing weapons: Flanged mace,
war hammer, military pick etc. They lack the grace of the blade, but get
the job done.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:49:47 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
On 20 Feb 2001, at 14:07, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> For a practical interstellar democracy, just look at the Zhodani model, but let
> everyone vote, not just the nobles (the Zhodani model is functionally a
> representative democracy with limited citizenship).
Which makes it a fairly broad oligarchy. A democracy, BTW, is just a really
broad oligarchy.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:49:47 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
On 20 Feb 2001, at 20:32, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
> Gee, just like unrestricted submarine warfare, poison gas, dropping
> bombs from aircraft, shotguns, dum-dums, and a few others items.
Dum-dums, and (I think) shotguns are banned under the various Hague conventions
(pre-WWI), not the Geneva conventions (which the USA never ratified, BTW).
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:52:09 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: fencing
> "Other "off hand" blades included things like:
> 1) a very large guard to protect the hand,
> 2) extra 'trapping' blades (usually two, set at 45 degrees from the
> main blade, allowing you to trap a foe's blade in the manner of a Juite
> or Sai).
> 3) A heavy cloak was also often used as an off hand weapon. It's used
> not only to stop the blade, but also to trap/entangle it and to distract
> your foe."
>
> Looks like there's quite a bit of reading left to do justice to
dueling
> in my Land Grab entry.
> Thanks again!
>
>
If you can find a copy, check out "cut and thrust weapons". Also, Sir
Richard Burton's "Book of the Sword" is interesting, and available in
reprinted form.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:57:49 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
> > Foils are *only* used in sport fencing, and started out as a practice
> > weapon for epee training. They are *totally* unsuitable for duel of the
> > sort described, especially when "long daggers" are being used in the
> > off hand. Foils are just too easy to *break* if blocked by that dagger.
> >
> > At least the above is what my friends who fence told me.
>
> Yes, foils started as training weapons. I would think it possible a
> weapon of similar shape (length and thinness of blade) that could be
> made with [more advanced/different] materials (I forget the TL of Lehar
> if it was mentioned). It could be faster than the heavier epee and
> still have some decent penetration if so stiffened.
Actually, the foil was quite a popular dueling weapon, particularly in
France in the late 19th century. Many of the duels over the Dreyfus-Pickard
affair were fought with foils.
Interestingly, the use of the dagger or main gauche fell out of favor with
the development of the modern lunge. Two weapon fencing requies a more open
guard position and limits lunge length.
Tod
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3715
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3716
Date: | 2/20/01 4:13:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 20 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3716
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: fencing
Re: fencing
Re: fencing
Re: Don't run...
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
re: fencing
Re: En Garde
Re: fencing
Re: fencing
re: Nobles and the Imperium
RE: Ship habitability
Re: A Lucky Find?
Re: fencing
TML Legal Dream Team
Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"
Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
Re: FAR TRADER
Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"
Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:08:46 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: fencing
> The main gauche, OTOH, was designed specifically to be an off-hand
> secondary weapon/parrying tool.
Hence the name "left hand", as opposed to main droite or "right hand"
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:01:59 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: fencing
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
>On 20 Feb 2001, at 11:39, Pat Connaughton wrote:
>
> > Always prefered the cutlass or a modified gladius myself,
> > better for close in work.
>
>I always preferred an M16 - good from 0 to 400 metres. For longer ranged
>work a
>LSW is nice, they're good from 5 to 600 metres. :)
Ah, yes. Reminds me of the bad ol' days at MCRD. The DI is demonstrating
the proper thrust/recover for bayonet work.
DI: "In the event that your bayonet becomes lodged in the body of
your opponent, a simple discharge of your weapon is usually
sufficient to dislodge the blade."
Recruit: "Ah, Gunnery Sgt. If I'm still capable of discharging my weapon,
there ain't gonna *BE* no bayonet combat!!"
The rest of the class went downhill from there.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:07:56 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: fencing
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>For what it's worth, thrusting weapons are generally mor lethal than
>choppers (e.g. cultlass). The Romans understood this, and used the Gladius
>primarily as a thrusting weapon. The same for the Zulu short spear.
That would be the Assegai. Ask the British foot soldiers defending Rourkes
Drift about that one. :^)
> The human skeleton is marvelously designed to fend of slashing attacks.
Well, up to a point. A blade that is heavy enough (and sharp enough)
is plenty efficient at removing limbs (and heads), as any Samurai can
attest.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:22:59 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Don't run...
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
To: "Traveller Mail List" <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 1:15 PM
Subject: Don't run...
> >>> What is that they say on the c-130 gunships "Don't run away, you'll
only
> >>> die tired"
>
> This is more commonly a line used by snipers (predominantly USMC, since
> they are far superior to the other branches of service, right Doug?)
>
> Other quotes include "Reach out and touch someone" and "Sniper: the next
> best thing to being there."
>
It should be noted that army snipers in Viet Nam actually racked up a larger
number of kills, on average, per sniper.
Also, unlike a sniper, an AC130 spectre is good for a grid square.
Personally, I like the idea of an airborn 105mm cannon.
For a bit of humorous ac-130 commentary, see:
http://formen.ign.com/news/23791.html
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:18:15 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
> The only real way to put an end to this is for the military to begin
>paying you by the job you do and not strictly by the bit of cloth on your
>arm. Then the wedge of unearned rank would be removed.
> Fat chance of the trilobytes in the Pentagon agreeing to that one.
>
>
>OBTrav - Would there be jobs in the IN that due to their technical or
>dangerous natures might be paid more than other ranks? Rather than pay
>these rates more, would the IN resort to a draft? How would the IN deal
>with the problem inherent when you pay a mop jockey and a spinal weapons
>tech the same pay?
>
>
> Larsen
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
I would agree with Mr. Whipsnade that the military pay system as practiced
in the U.S. military is broken. Unfortunately the ranking system in canon,
as presented in CT, is based upon the American Navy, with Petty Officers and
CPO's even delineated in E-1 to E-9 paygrades. The chances of this being
fixed in GT:IN is probably small.
Part of the problem is the duality present in the military concept of rank.
An Electronic Technician First Class is not only suppose to be an expert in
the equipment he(she) works on, capable of supervising the technicians under
him(her) in the repair and maintenance of equipment, training the
technicians working for him(her) so that they advance, not only in rank, but
also in technical skill; but the ET1 is also a PO1 who is responsible for
the general cleanliness of the spaces assign to his people, the discipline
of the sailors junior to him(her), and quite possibly in a position of
authority over members of other specialties, some of whom might be more
technically competent in their own specialties.
The Navy (and other services) have a real problem coping with the idea that
they might have to pay a PO3 the same as a PO1 because (s)he is more
intelligent, highly trained and competent in a difficult specialty. The
lower paid PO1's resent the idea because they perform military duties
outside their specialty that require a more mature, disciplined outlook, and
they have mastered skills which may have no use outside the military, but
are vital for continued war fighting capability. The army wrestled with this
problem by splitting their technical people into Spec ranks. The problem was
that when an officer goes up to a group of people milling about that officer
doesn't want to hear from the Spec that they may be a E-6, but its not their
job to make sure the troops fall into ranks and salute. So the army made the
specs sergeants again, so it would be their job.
ObTrav: What I'd like to see happen is very un-conical. Keep the High Guard
Branches. It's very much not Yanks in Space and makes more sense in my
opinion. In the USN officers working in technical specialties are heavily
dependent on their CPO's, warrants and Limited Duty Officers. Just get the
Line Officers out of the technical end all together. Command is command and
these guys should be specializing in war fighting.
For enlisted spacers reduce the number of Petty Officer ratings to a small
number. CPO's should have even fewer ratings. Instead of having Gravitics
Technicians Third Class, Second Class, First Class, Chief, Senior Chief,
Master Chief, broaden it out at the top. Have GT3, GT2, GT1. When the spacer
makes CPO they're expected to have increased their mastery of engineering,
so you might have a Chief Spacecraft Systems Techincian.
Warrants should fill many of the senior technical slots. These people will
come from the ranks and will fill many of the non-command officer slots.
This makes sense to me given the Traveller feudal background. Not many Dukes
sons and daughters who are Marquis(Marques?) are going to want to be grease
monkeys. They'll go into the line positions. Most of the technical slots
will be filled by ex-enlisted. (That's what those NOTC slots are for.) There
are no reasons that pay locks to rank exclusively. The Russians, for
example, paid a ship's CO based on the size and type of the command. They
also received more pay that equivalent officers not in a position of
command, etc.
The ranking system would no long be fully locked in with the army, but so
what. That is a relic of the uniform pay system that we, in the U.S. use to
simplify things for congress and the bean counters.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:29:54 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
> Dum-dums, and (I think) shotguns are banned under the various Hague
conventions
> (pre-WWI), not the Geneva conventions (which the USA never ratified, BTW).
>
IIRC, shotguns are not specifically banned. However, the German government
complained that the US use of shotguns violated the ban on weapons designed
to cause undue suffering.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:25:44 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: re: fencing
>Personally, I favor a nice light infantry sabre :no curve, excellent thrust,
>adequate cut and much more difficult to break than a rapier. Another
>interesting weapon is the Kolischmarche, which has a foible like a rapier
>and a forte like a light sword. This give a very quick weapon which can
>parry fairly heavy blades.
One of my goals is to get a 1911 "Patton" sabre.
No curve, big sturdy bell guard.
Last combat sword issued in the US Army. Designed by a young officer by
the name of George S. Patton, Jr.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it. http://www.bigfoott.com/~urbin/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:30:39 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: En Garde
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
"Mon freres,
I fear we have no choice. We can, nay, must free France from the tyrrany
that is the lazy, corrupt
Jansenists that have the King in their thrall.
Oh, and that coat, m'sieur it is c'est bon.
Ian Whitchurch
PS I know it is OT, but I feel we have no choice but to start an En Garde
PBEM. Who is reffing ?
Mr. Whitchurch,
I'm game and perhaps, thanks to my prematurely aged hair color, I could
be the (shudder) Grey Eminence.
More to the point, who's got the rules?
Larsen E. Whipsnade <twirling an oily mustache, in a dark cape)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:32:23 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: fencing
> > The human skeleton is marvelously designed to fend of slashing attacks.
>
> Well, up to a point. A blade that is heavy enough (and sharp enough)
> is plenty efficient at removing limbs (and heads), as any Samurai can
> attest.
>
True, but technically a katana or wakazashi is really a big knife from the
standpoint of construction. Axes work well, too, BTW.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:39:55 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: fencing
> Ah, yes. Reminds me of the bad ol' days at MCRD. The DI is demonstrating
> the proper thrust/recover for bayonet work.
>
> DI: "In the event that your bayonet becomes lodged in the body of
> your opponent, a simple discharge of your weapon is usually
> sufficient to dislodge the blade."
>
> Recruit: "Ah, Gunnery Sgt. If I'm still capable of discharging my weapon,
> there ain't gonna *BE* no bayonet combat!!"
>
> The rest of the class went downhill from there.
>
> - Mark C.
When I went through Infantry OSUT (basic and AIT) at Ft Benning in 1980,
they didn't even have bayonet training. Bayonets were for opening C-rat
cases or scaring civilians. Even during the Napoleonic and US civil wars,
bayonets were rarely used (at least according to the number of bayonet
wounds recorded by field surgeons).
Personally, If I'm going to carry a big knife, I'd rather have a nice
fighter like a Randall #1, Al Mare SERE, Terzoula or the like. Something
sharp and actually useful.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:40:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Nobles and the Imperium
Thanks for your comments, Rob. I don't think that the RoM Terrans would
have any difficulty in making themselves into an hereditary nobility. The
Ziru Sirka, remember, had a hereditary noble class, so the environment in
which the Terran and later Rule of Man military governors found themselves
already contained a working model. Also, Terrans will still have many
remants of hereditary nobility (and I'm not talking about Dubya) by the
time of the conquest. For example, some of the major powers have monarchs
who trace their lineage back hundreds, if not thousands, of years; England
and Japan come immediately to mind.
The situation in the Rule of Man and Long Night eras is not dissimilar
from Europe in the Dark Ages (not unintentionally, I would think). The
Roman Empire had placed military governors to rule over the various
barbarians from Spain to Britain to Germany to Palestine. As Rome
collapsed, many military governors continued to manage defense and
economic relations. Their powers had been established by law and the
Roman army. As Rome fell, they kept their positions out of custom -- and
political astuteness. By the end of the Middle Ages, custom became law as
stronger central governments were formed with kings at the head of larger
regions, and the kings recognized the rights of the nobility.
- --Glenn
- --- Rob Davenport <rgd@ohio.voyager.net> wrote:
> Ah, very nice post, Glenn. Thanks. I'd forgotten about the ZS
> in my earlier brain dead posting. I think I recall reading about
> the Rule of Man military governors taking on a kind of nobility
> (inheriting the powers of the ZS bureaux when necessary to work with
> the local conservative vilani population).
> My question now is, would the Rule of Man terrans have really created a
> nobility after years on Earth without them (effectively)? It may not
> be a good question and I'm probably missing some things, but that's
> what's rattling in my brain before I go home... :)
>
> Rob D.
>
> On 20 Feb 2001, at 12:20, Glenn Goffin wrote:
>
> Date sent: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 12:20:10 -0800 (PST)
> From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
> Subject: re: Nobles and the Imperium
> To: traveller mailing aa list <traveller@lists.ient.com>
> Send reply to: traveller@lists.ient.com
>
> > >From: hal@buffnet.net
> >
> > > I know Loren is writing a book on the Imperial Nobles, but
> > >perhaps we can spark his creative juices (as if he needed that right?
>
> > ><wink>) by asking questions or putting forth ideas on how we see the
> > >institution for our own traveller universes...
> >
> > Here is my Cr0.02:
> >
> > The nobility did not spring fully formed from the mind of Zeus. It is
> the
> > product of a very long history (on the order of 10,000 years). The
> Ziru
> > Sirka had a hereditary management class, which was essentially a
> nobility.
> > The Terrans conquered the Ziru Sirka and placed military governors
> with
> > small forces over the various worlds and regions of the Ziru Sirka.
> Far
> > from home and without orders for long periods of time, these military
> > governors chose their own successors, eventually establishing
> hereditary
> > offices. When the Rule of Man was established, it confirmed and to
> some
> > extent regulated this practice and thus created the first official
> > post-Vilani nobility.
> >
> > The Rule of Man collapsed into the Long Night. Many nobles continued
> to
> > rule as they had before. Some new ones created themselves in the
> chaos.
> > The Ziru Sirkan nobility had never been suppressed de jure, only de
> facto
> > and then only partially. It was able to reassert itself, especially
> in
> > Vland sector, during the Long Night.
> >
> > When Cleon started the Third Imperium, he generally preserved the
> status
> > quo, thus bringing the existing nobility of annexed regions into his
> camp,
> > and aiding his conquest of this region of space. He also created a
> large
> > number of new nobles, in order to create a faction that would be even
> more
> > loyal to him and would outnumber the existing Ziru Sirkan and Terran
> > nobility.
> >
> > By 1100, a bewildering mix of titles, powers, fiefs, and heraldry
> > characterizes the state of the nobility. It is a perfect setting for
> > role-playing.
> >
> > --Glenn
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
> > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> >
>
>
> --
> Rob
>
> 'The whole principle is wrong; it's like demanding that grown men live
> on skim milk because the baby can't eat steak.'
> - author Robert A. Heinlein on censorship.
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:36:39 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
>
>
>Mr. Carlino,
> No offense taken sir, because I completely agree with every point in
>your post! Looking back at myself and my peers from over 15 years in the
>future makes me wince. We were brash, insufferable, little SOBs, given
rank
>simply as a way of boosting our pay. Because we didn't earn the rank, we
>had no respect for it.
> As a 24 year old, I was an enlisted man standing watch as an enlisted
>officer of the watch, training newly arrived officers, and being asked
about
>the suitability as to their qualifications for watch officer. Is it any
>wonder that the niceties of military discipline and rank were lost to me?
>Or why the opinions of a man ten years my senior, but my junior in rank,
>were automatically dismissed? Callow isn't a strong enough word to
describe
>our behavior. We were horrible little bastards.
> As the military is forced to handle more and more technical duties,
>determining pay rates without taking into account the actual job being
>performed is asinine. We already pay pilots, divers, demo experts more,
way
>not the hard to fill tech rates? Heck, why not ALL hard to fill rates
more?
> The USN has far too many typewriter bangers and cooks, but far too few
>bosuns. Might "bosun pay" entice a few more into the rate? The Army could
>use the same device to flesh out it's infantry ranks.
>
as a somewhat interesting aside: When I was preparing to get out, a
subcontractor we had on board was describing the hardships that existed in
the job market for a retired CPO. According to him there were just no jobs
to be had that paid as much as being on active duty. Of course he was a Mess
Specialist, which meant that he was doing a job that is often performed by
young people in their mid-twenties (as are most McD's managers.) He was a
sales rep for one of the galley suppliers. He couldn't conceive of the fact
that an ex-nuc, qualified as an Engineer Watch Officer (On steam and Gas
Turbines), who also managed to get a BS while on active duty, might be able
to find a job with a salary higher than an E-8 without great difficulty.
Basically very few people outside the military get the pay of a Chief Mess
Specialist, Yeoman or Personnel Specialist for doing the same job. Very few
Chief Electronic Technicians, Electricians, or any of the computer specialty
ratings make as little as they do in the military doing the same job. Just
more proof of your point.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:42:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?
>From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
>> TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
>> Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
>> Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.
>
>It's not working. I want my money/soul/whatever back.
You're probably not doing it right. It works best over the telephone.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:44:59 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: fencing
>
> One of my goals is to get a 1911 "Patton" sabre.
> No curve, big sturdy bell guard.
>
> Last combat sword issued in the US Army. Designed by a young officer by
> the name of George S. Patton, Jr.
>
Well, I see these from time to time. My personal favorite issue is the
British 1822 light infantry sabre. Nice and straight and I love the ray
skin grips. Now if we're mounted, I choose a naice Austrian cuirassers
Palasch.
Anyone looking for swords and such should also check out American Fencers
Supply (on Folsum street in San Francisco). They have some nice theatrical
pieces with decent blades.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:51:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: TML Legal Dream Team
>From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
>
>
>TML Legal Dream Team. Yeah. I like it.
Have you been defrauded in connection with the purchase or sale of
megacorporate securities?
Have your inventions been stolen and turned into profit without your
consent (and without a royalty)?
Have you been injured by exposure to unshielded gravitic components?
Call the TML Legal Dream Team LIC. We'll get your money.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:55:59 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"
I was lucky enough to meet John and his lovely bride when they came to see
the United States some time back (Danie says Hi John and Alison!). In any
event, he was kind enough to bring with him, a recent copy of En Guarde...
Problem is, I haven't the slightest clue on how to run a play by email
campaign like that. Hell, I'm having problems trying to figure out how to
bring FAR TRADER to the computer for long term use. I just realized that
the size of the database now has to utilize 400+ records, each with 1200
elements (hex ID along with Average Trade Volume and Average Passenger
Volume)!
Hal
Come Hell or High water, that book is gonna fit into that blasted program!
(and no, it isn't come Hal or high water either...)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:51:05 -0600
From: Terry Mixon <tmixon@ghg.net>
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Hello Terry,
Hi Hal,
Sorry for the delay but work has been busy with the shuttle mission up.
> As you are willing to do revisions <evil grin>...
Evil man...
> In general, I would have thought that the faster services would be able
> to charge more money for the speed bonus. In short, how would you resolve
> the problem I've set before you? <grin> (no fair saying "I won't do a
> thing, bleh...")
I believe the cost of shipping is limited by Imperial Law.
If I am wrong, someone will tell me... <g>
Terry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:54:37 -0600
From: Terry Mixon <tmixon@ghg.net>
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> As I see it now, there is no real difference between the 11 parsec
> distance as measured by straight distance and the ship jumping.
>
> On the other hand, I suppose that one could take a J shaped path to reach a
> destination. It would be 6 parsecs by the map, yet 11 parsecs by the "J"
> journy. However, that raises a new issue. Suppose you have two stars on a
> spinward main. A portion of the Spinward Main makes a "C" shape. As it
> turns out however, a Jump 3 ship can make the transit in one jump. (Note:
> example taken from 1927 to 2125 on Spinward marches map) Is this a world
> that is considered to be 6 parsecs away (for jump 1 ships) or 3 parsecs
> away for jump 3 ships?
You have the right of it.
A path may wander from the straight line.
Since you are allowed, by the trade rules, to use J-3 ships away from a x-boat
route or higher jump ships on the x-boat route, you would consider it a single
J-3 route.
Terry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:00:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"
hal@buffnet.net writes:
> Problem is, I haven't the slightest clue on how to run a play by email
> campaign like that. Hell, I'm having problems trying to figure out how to
> bring FAR TRADER to the computer for long term use. I just realized that
> the size of the database now has to utilize 400+ records, each with 1200
> elements (hex ID along with Average Trade Volume and Average Passenger
> Volume)!
Ah, must be using a small subset ;). My trade routes program runs on a data set of around 27,000 worlds.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:00:19 -0600
From: Terry Mixon <tmixon@ghg.net>
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
JR Holmes wrote:
> >> That's exactly the sort of software that a functional trader would
> >> want to have running on his ship's computer. But that is just the
> >> basic version of the software. Later versions would include a way of
> >> indexing those jumps cross-indexed by the cost of jump fuel as
> >> reported on each stop's fuel status reports for other planets.
> >
> >As well as what commodities were avalable and which were in demand, so
> >he could trade along the way.
>
> Well, that would make it just too easy. If all merchants used that
> software exclusively, they certainly wouldn't feel like a "free
> trader", they'd end up taking all their cargo instructions from their
> routing program. I would rather keep my merchant owners looking at
> the program results and then using their own intuition to vary from
> that optimal route in order to take a plum cargo to that planet just a
> single jump detour away.
Imagine the hoopla if a hacker deleted juicy spots trade info and
inserted non interesting trade info? Talk about sewing up the competition.
Terry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:05:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
Terry Mixon writes:
> I believe the cost of shipping is limited by Imperial Law.
While it's quite possible there are price caps, I think the evidence is that
the Imperium prefers to limit prices by creating low-cost subsidized merchants,
which mostly caps the cost of slow transport. Fast transit either (a) can
charge what the market will bear, or (b) doesn't exist (if regulated to the
point of being unprofitable, it just won't exist at all).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:04:06 -0600
From: Terry Mixon <tmixon@ghg.net>
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Terry Mixon writes:
>
> > I believe the cost of shipping is limited by Imperial Law.
>
> While it's quite possible there are price caps, I think the evidence is that
> the Imperium prefers to limit prices by creating low-cost subsidized merchants,
> which mostly caps the cost of slow transport. Fast transit either (a) can
> charge what the market will bear, or (b) doesn't exist (if regulated to the
> point of being unprofitable, it just won't exist at all).
See, I told you that someone would set me right.
Thanks Anthony.
Terry
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3716
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3717
Date: | 2/20/01 6:05:02 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 20 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3717
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"
Re : Geophysical/Climate Question
Re: En Garde
Re: Nobles and the Imperium
Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
Re: En Garde
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3707
Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question
Re: HTML gibberish
Re: En Garde & Imperial Court
RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Re: En garde
Re: Ohhh Ohh Ohhh
RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
RE: HTML gibberish
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
Shrieker World
Re: HTML gibberish
Trevor Asked
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3707
Re: TNE or not NE
Re: Copyright
FFE 004
RE: Ship habitability
Re: FFE 004
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:13:53 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
"Basically very few people outside the military get the pay of a Chief
Mess Specialist, Yeoman or Personnel Specialist for doing the same job. Very
few Chief Electronic Technicians, Electricians, or any of the computer
specialty ratings make as little as they do in the military doing the same
job. Just more proof of your point."
Mr. Carlino,
Less than 2 months before my discharge, I was ordered to attend a
"Dollars and Sense" rentention lecture given by our new CO, an O-6. He'd
come up with this approach, along with the title, and had actually been
congratulated by some higher ups for doing so.
The biggest problem facing his new command, and thus his prospect of a
blemish free career, was the fact that 28 E-5 and E-6 nucs were getting out
in the 100 days prior to his first WestPac. Add a few junior eng officers
and things get real tricky.
He crammed us all into a classroom and went through his schtick. I had
the misfortune of arrving early and had been tapped to "man" the lightswitch
for his slide show. When he baldly asserted that our racks in berthing were
the equivalent of a single bedroom apartment, the look on all the faces was
indescribable.
Have you ever seen the Mel Brooks movie "The Producers"? There's a
scene in which the Broadway premier audience of this new musical has just
been exposed to the opening number of "Springtime for Hitler". IN the
stunned silence, Borrks pans the camera very slowly across their faces.
That's the same thing I saw.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:17:24 -0600
From: Terry Mixon <tmixon@ghg.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
Ian or Katts wrote:
> BTW, Terry Mixon did a complete map of the Spinward Marches' trade routes - if you plug 'I am
> looking for Terry Mixon's trade map of the Spinward Marches' into your favorite search engine, then
> you should find a link.
Yep. 50,000,000 of them. <g>
Try
http://www.ghg.net/tmixon/Trade
Thanks Ian.
Terry
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:26:35 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"
At 04:00 PM 2/20/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>hal@buffnet.net writes:
>
>> Problem is, I haven't the slightest clue on how to run a play by email
>> campaign like that. Hell, I'm having problems trying to figure out how to
>> bring FAR TRADER to the computer for long term use. I just realized that
>> the size of the database now has to utilize 400+ records, each with 1200
>> elements (hex ID along with Average Trade Volume and Average Passenger
>> Volume)!
>
>Ah, must be using a small subset ;). My trade routes program runs on a
data set of around 27,000 worlds.
Wise guy ehhhhhhhhh?
look at the ground, look at the ground! Whup whup whoo whhoooooo
(obtrav: those hivers sure like the three stooges don't they?)
In any event, the description above means I have to *add* another data base
I wasn't counting on <sigh>
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:37:00 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question
Jeff Greenly wrote :-
<Describes violent volcanic pre-conditions>
> I am especially interested in weather conditions.
Temperature drops due to the suspended ejecta have been talked about.
I don't know what sort of climate you're shooting for, so you may want to
limit this effect.
Ignoring particulates, your list of gases includes 2 very potent greenhouse
ones (CO2/SO2). These will limit any fall in average temperatures in the
long run.
The sky will look orange-reddish rather than blue due to scattering of
sunlight from the suspended ash.
The effect on rainfall will be driven by cooling effects rather than
particle nucleation per se. The pH of the rain will be lower in and around
the fallout plumes of the volcanoes (e.g. dissolved sulphuric acid). This
will have effects on plant life, soil and ground water quality (and even the
pH and salinity of the oceans, if large enough). Erosion will be
accelerated, but the local geology may well compensate for this, given the
volcanic activity.
Thunderstorms, etc. are less likely in the long term as the transfer of heat
energy from the atmosphere to the ocean is reduced (more reflected into
space by the dust). It looks like there will eventually be positive feedback
effects on climate once ocean circulation changes if the dust levels in the
atmosphere persist. In other words, things could continue to get colder and
colder until everything freezes over. As I've written above, though, the
CO2/SO2 in the atmosphere will put brakes on this (but it might not be
enough)...
If the surface temperature isn't too cold, frequent smogs are likely in
susceptible areas. These will pose a hazard to life not adapted to
particulate/sulphate/etc. rich atmospheres.
Another factor to consider is why the world is so volcanically active in the
first place (young/radioactive rich/tidal stress?). There is potential for
'colour' there.
Hal@buffnet.net wrote :-
> What mechanism brings the dust from the Stratosphere down to lower
> levels? I suspect <sheepish grin> that it is gravity - but what keeps
> it up there in defiance of gravity?
The dust is very fine.
It behaves like a well shaken mixture of sand in water, say. Random
collisions between the molecules of the fluid and the other particles slow
the descent.
Precipitation is slowed because the atmosphere is being continuously
'stirred' by temperature differentials and the rotation of the Earth,
leading to the movement of air masses.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer, amateur rockhead
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:24:27 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: En Garde
From: Ian Whitchurch
> PS I know it is OT, but I feel we have no choice but to start an En Garde
> PBEM. Who is reffing ?
Marvellous. Just when I was about to have to shut down my email account,
someone starts writing things like this. Of course it wouldn't happen a
year ago, would it?
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:38:05 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium
> From: hal@buffnet.net
> First off, I don't see the Imperial Nobles as being individuals entrusted
> with powers of absolute control.
<rest snipped>
A lot depends on how you see the nobility. There are two main schools of
thought as to what the nobility is.
One is that the nobility is created from above. That is, they are the
agents of the Imperium/Emperor, interacting with Imperial member worlds in
a manner something like diplomats.
The other is that the nobility are the local elites of the imperial worlds
and corporations, given titles and funny hats to wear. In this model,
Delphine of Mora is a Duchess because she rules Mora. She doesn't rule
Mora because she is a Duchess.
Of course, in both models, it is possible to be made a noble for "services
rendered", but the nobles with real clout tend to have solid power bases,
whether "geographical", corporate, bureaucratic or military, and usually
the possession of such power bases is the basis for them (or their
ancestors) becoming nobles in the first place.
So many, if not most, nobles have real power, independent of the Imperium
as such.
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:29:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
Terry Mixon writes:
> See, I told you that someone would set me right.
Well, this is the subject of intermittent flame wars. 'Imperial Regulation'
is a favorite of people who like the CT cargo cost rules (cost is per dton
per jump). It has the disadvantage of making zero economic sense.
Approximate costs per dton per jump and per parsec, for various speeds, using
2,000 ton USL cargo ships
J1: 390/jump, 390/parsec
J2: 630/jump, 315/parsec
J3: 960/jump, 320/parsec
J4: 1,480/jump, 370/parsec
J5: 2,300/jump, 460/parsec. Exchange rates boost this to 700/parsec.
J6: 3,250/jump, 540/parsec. Exchange rates boost this to 1600/parsec.
Obviously, most cargo will be J2 or J3, though J4 isn't a bad deal (it will
probably be a bit higher cost due to lower volume, and realistically there
should be exchange rate differences between TL C and TL D).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:32 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: En Garde
In-Reply-To: <F108XrRjbDt3HvoFOAm00000ccb@hotmail.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
PBeM EN GARDE?
Nice idea... to keep it vaguely on-topic, why not set it in the Imperial
Court?
A brief search has so far failed to reveal my copy of the rules :-(
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:32:17 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3707
> Sorry, Loren. I started this.
Actually, it was the "Who spiked the water cooler" remark I took issue with.
I don't object to people liking or not liking anything I've written, and I
don't object to them telling me or others about their dislikes. I _am_ a
little irritated by ad hominem remarks indicating that we were
drunk/stoned/otherwise-impaired when we wrote whatever it was . . .
And I don't much like people saying I should be set on fire either, like a
previous offender.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:43:35 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question
Hello Robert,
Thanks for the info in response to my question.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:39:56 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: HTML gibberish
Gentles
Are my posts appearing as mounds of HTML gibberish like Shaggy3D's? (just to
pick a random example) I'm using AOL and not taking any special steps to
prevent it.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:46:57 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: En Garde & Imperial Court
Hello Mexal,
Doesn't your comment almost sound a bit like a Pocket Empires En Garde mix?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:39:43 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
>In-Reply-To: <10219.235836.4z5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
>Greetings dear hearts, especially Leonard.
>
>Thanks for that thought... I'll go upstairs and ask my dearly beloved, who
>used to be a fencer.
>
>Erm. Maybe they call them foils but they are actually a bit more robust
>than those things they use in the average salle des arms. Potential for
>terminology confusion if some hapless PC is challenged and told he needs
>to use a 'foil' and turns up with something raided from the fencing
>locker in the gym!
>
>My excuse is I've only fought 'blade weapons' with a longsword! Never done
>the 'sport' sort of fencing.
>
>Hugs and kisses,
>
>Mexal.
Which leads to the question: What kind of cutlasses are we talking about
when we say that Imperial Marines use cutlasses?
I would assume that when they are practicing drills, as described in GT:GF
they are using some form of fencing cutlass which is very like a modern
fencing saber, as is presently used in the sport. Since traditionally the
cutlass is a weapon which has both an edge and a point. (The epee, and the
foil that was developed to practice epee combat with, use only the point.)
What about in uniform? Do they use a heavier ceremonial cutlass while in
dress uniform?
I already assume IMTU that they use hyperdense cutlass while in battle
dress. (Yeah, yeah I know, my battledress has integrated weaponry too. The
fusion gun is still a separate long arm, though it plugs into the backpack.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:46:07 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: En garde
In a message dated 20-Feb-01 5:18:52 AM Central Standard Time,
owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
> GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :
> > Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to allow for
> > female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever Amber_ and
> > _Desiree_. Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing the king
> > even moreso, but both had their rewards.
> >
> > There was even allowance for enlisting in the army disguised as a man,
> > although this involved certain risks also.
> >
> > LKW
> >
> > Also had rules for the Navy -- heavily influenced by Hornblower et al.
>
> Is there any chance of these being made accesible anywhere ?
If I could ever get my stuff from the storage locker 1100 miles away, I might
try to get them into print somehow.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:47:25 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ohhh Ohh Ohhh
In a message dated 20-Feb-01 5:18:52 AM Central Standard Time,
owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
> Ohhh Ohh Ohhh, see must have. I suppose that these have long since
> disappeared into the great void of "might-have-been" (he says really
really
> hoping for an answer in the negative).
I think they are in one of the cartons of stuff still in a storage locker in
Illinois.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 16:48:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Every time I see this subject line, I wonder who it is.
Kiri ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:45:47 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: RE: HTML gibberish
Loren wrote:
>Gentles
>
>Are my posts appearing as mounds of HTML gibberish like Shaggy3D's? (just
to
>pick a random example) I'm using AOL and not taking any special steps to
>prevent it.
Nope, at least not from my end.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:44:28 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3706
> > I'm with you, partner. Screw Virus! Who spiked the water cooler
when
>> they came up with that one!??!
>> Here's a list for you; New Coke, the Edsel, and Virus.
>
>Gentlemen, please bear in mind I was part of the creative team for TNE . .
.
>thank you.
>
>Reminds me of the time some critic at the hotel bar at one of the east
coast
>Origins was sounding off on what a lousy book _Red Storm Rising_ was, and
how
>the scenario was totally implausible. I was sitting at the next table, with
>Frank Chadwick and a couple of friends of GDW, including one Tom Clancy
(this
>was in the days he still could attend gaming cons and not be recognized).
We
>were all waiting for the critic to say "What idiot came up with that one?"
>but he never did -- spolied a perfect anecdote in the making . . .
>
>LKW
Name dropper. (Actually I'm very jealous that you've had the opportunity to
meet and work with so many talented people.)
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:48:49 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Shrieker World
Did the gravity of the world inhabited by the Shriekers in District 268 ever
make it into official print? I don't have the relevant adventure available
right now . . .
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:53:56 -0600
From: Stormhound <stormhnd@fidnet.com>
Subject: Re: HTML gibberish
Of course not. Your posts are always *inspired* gibberish. ;-)
(And they read okay too...)
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> Gentles
>
> Are my posts appearing as mounds of HTML gibberish like Shaggy3D's? (just to
> pick a random example) I'm using AOL and not taking any special steps to
> prevent it.
>
> LKW
- --
Stormhound
DNRC Ombudsman for Induhvidual Affairs, Holder of Past Knowledge
Come visit my web page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd
Or my new Amateur Radio web page at http://www.qsl.net/kc0ekv
Or my JN6 course design page at http://www.fidnet.com/~stormhnd/golfpage.htm
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:54:07 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Trevor Asked
> Loren wrote:
> > Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to
> > allow for female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever
> > Amber_ and _Desiree_. Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing
> > the king even moreso, but both had their rewards.
> >
> > There was even allowance for enlisting in the army disguised as a
> > man, although this involved certain risks also.
>
> Where can I find this, what's the URL?
It was written before the invention of the Apple ][ . . . it never had a URL.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 00:58:18 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3707
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
"Sorry, Loren. I started this."
"I _am_ a little irritated by ad hominem remarks indicating that we
were drunk/stoned/otherwise-impaired when we wrote whatever it was..."
Mr. Wiseman,
I don't know who sent you the apology I've snipped above, but he
shouldn't have. I was the flip, crass, unfeeling, moron who typed the
idiotic remark about the watercooler.
It was an unforgiveable act on my part and you have my deepest
apologies. My fingers typed it well before my brain was in gear. I am
truly very sorry for it.
The folks here on the TML, including yourself, have shown me nothing
but kindness and have given of themselves unstintingly. I repaid those
gifts with an unfeeling, hurtful, and stupid remark. The entire list has my
apologies also.
I cannot take the remark away, or wish that it did not happen, but I
can try not to type and post any such things in the future.
Sincerely,
William R. Cameron - aka Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:01:42 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: TNE or not NE
> I have bit the hand that fed me Traveller!!!!!!!!
>
> My most humble and abject apologies, Mr. Wiseman. My personal
feelings
> towards Virus do not extend to it's mileau or the materials set there.
Anyone may criticise what I have written, all I ask is that they refrain from
personal attacks. Attack my opinions, but not me.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:04:53 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Copyright
In a message dated 20-Feb-01 12:21:28 PM Central Standard Time,
owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
> Gentlemen,
> One of the posts in the Imperial legal frameworks thread mentioned
> copyright laws, specifically the fact that most nations ignore US statutes
> in that area.
> Could one of the TML Legal Dream Team address this please? What is
> wrong about the US take on copyright protections that the rest of the
world
> simply ignores them? Or is the idea that US copyright law is "incorrect"
> just a handy fig leaf to explain away widespread software, video, music,
and
>
> any other type of media piracy?
> For example, friends in the software industry refer to Israel as a
"one
>
> disc" country. Once your product arrives there, it's immediately pirated
> and distributed, so you only sell "one disc".
> Please note, I am not taking sides in the "open source" debate.
Newsweek had an article this week that addressed this matter indirectly. I
leave the discovery of that as an exercise to the reader.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:36:44 -0600
From: "Christopher Duden" <dude@citilink.com>
Subject: FFE 004
Does anyone know when FFE 004, The Short Adventures, is going to be out? I
thought that it was supposed to be available in January...
~chris
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:33:30 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
Doug wrote:
<snip typical story version of my post>
>LT: (visibly shaken) "Yes sir!"
>
>CSM: (to General) "Sorry to bother you with this Dave."
>
>CG: "No problem John, dinner on Saturday?"
This CSM had one atvantage I did not include, Personal friendship with
ranking officer. The versions I was basing my post on, the slap on the
hand and "don't do it again" meant "use a little tact next time, I'll
straighten out this kid".
Charles
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:44:47 -0500
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
Subject: Re: FFE 004
It just arrived to Marc, and should be shipping in the next day or two
Hunter
The GRIP Team
*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
On 2/20/2001 at 7:36 PM Christopher Duden wrote:
>Does anyone know when FFE 004, The Short Adventures, is going to be out? I
>thought that it was supposed to be available in January...
>
>~chris
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 17:53:04 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
At 10:04 PM -0600 2/19/01, Steve Daniels wrote:
>All this take of legal systems and constitutions
>leads me back to a setting-shaking event I want
>to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it myself:
>
>A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.
>With a goal to create a Federal Republic type
>system.
Communications are too slow to really support such a system. Of
course you could have the event that sets all this in motion is the
invention of near instantaneous communications across the Imperium....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:41:07 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:12:07 GMT
> From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
> Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
>
> "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com> writes:
>
> >(At this point you must imagine the national anthem of the USSR*
> >begining to swell as the party apparatchiks march in lock step on
> >the palace.
> >
> >*I can't find it at the moment but I've got a tape from the eighties
> >with national anthems from quite a few countries. The "Hymn to
> >the Soviet Union" (not sure if that's teh exact title) is a very moving
> >piece of music.
>
> Historical trivia time: the participants in the *actual* Russian
> Revolution sang the "Internationale" (which was the USSR's national
> anthem until WW2) and even "La Marseillaise".
Both good heroic revolutionary pieces of music as well.
>
> The song you're thinking of was, IIRC, supposedly "written" by Stalin
> in 1943 or so (in fact, he got a couple of composers to write songs,
> then took part of the tune from each of them).
Well they did a good job it is a stirring piece of music.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:43:08 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:11:00 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
>
> In mail you write:
>
> > Waaaait just a minute: We ALL know that Hotblack's Band, Disaster Area,
is
> > the one whose audiovisual system violate many planets' strategic arms
> > limitations treaties. All others are merely pretenders. This from
Douglas
> > Adams' Restaurant at the End of the Universe.
>
> Evil thought of the week.
>
> There's a gizmo that's been kicking around as a lab prototype for
> around 20 years now. By using MHD effects, it's possible to make a
> flame act as a speaker.
This is way too cool.
David Shayne
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3717
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3718
Date: | 2/20/01 8:18:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 20 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3718
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: A Lucky Find?
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Democracy Now!
RE: Civility and Politeness
Re: Democracy Now!
RE: Democracy Now!
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Shrieker World
RE: Ship habitability
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: fencing
Re:
What could go wrong?
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
re: Nobles and the Imperium
RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Civility and Politeness
Re: Democracy Now!
RE: Democracy Now!
Re: En Garde
Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:58:29 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?
> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:05:33 +0100
> From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
> Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?
>
> "Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> > TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
> > Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
> > Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.
>
> It's not working. I want my money/soul/whatever back.
Perhaps your mispronouncing it?
David <fnord> Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:51:30 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:12:18 +1000
> From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
> Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
>
> > From: "DaveShayne"
> > Don't you know the only historically vallid government
> > for the Imperium is the scientific planned political economy.
> >
> > It is time, tovariches, to proclaim the truth of the interstellar
> > proletariat revolution! Long live the United Soviet Socialist Planets!
> >
> > All power to the Soviets! Down with Tsarist Imperialism!
>
> The Regina Regional Committee of the Ine Givar (Solidariti) welcomes the
> emergence of new forces in the revolutionary struggle against the
> megacorporations' Imperium.
>
> Alan Bradley
> alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
Together we will march toward victory for the downtroden masses
of the Imperium.
David Shayne
Chairbeing of the Nth International Council
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:50:18 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:03:43 -0600
> From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
> Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
<snip>
> Who says it has to be the size of the 3I? Who says the democratic
> mechanisms need to be similar to real world ones?
>
> Member worlds could select Senators based on whatever criteria
> or government type they want. The length of term of a Senator in
> the Imperial Senate might be 10, 20 or even 30 years. A President
> could be elected by the Senate every 10 or so years.
My scheme for an Imperium wide democracy might look a little like this.
Firstly the government is highly republican in form. Every year elections
for representatives to the subsector parliament (insert apropriate vilani
term here) are held. Each planet elects one sophont who serves a
seven year term. (This means that every planet would have seven
reps in the subsector parliament.) The elections occur on Holiday
(might as well keep the day)
The subsector parliament, meeting 3 months after Holiday, chooses one
of it's members to serve as representative to the sector parliament.
These representatives also serve for 7 years giving each subsector
7 representatives in the sector parliament. The parliament would
also choose a president (insert apropriate vilani title here) to serve
untill next year.
The sector parliament, meeting 6 months after Holiday, chooses a
rep to the Imperium (Democrium?) parliament and a president for
the sector.
The Democrium (I think I like this term) parliament meeting the day
before Holiday chooses the President of the whole shebang and
now the government is complete.
The bureaucratic structure answering to the various presidents
caries out the will of the elected government (in theory at least)
and performs the day to day actions that allow any large society
to function.
Due to travel times involved a representative's term lasts untill
his/her/it's replacement arrives. Special elections to replace
reps who have left office early due to death, resignation,
or election to higher parliaments will be held with the next
regular election. leaving some seats open for a year or so.
On to practical matters. This system gives equal representation
to all planets regardless of population. Since the High Pop
planets will of course not consider this acceptable we need to
amend the voting technique. The method I propose would be
to give each representative voting power based on the population
of it's homeworld. Call this the proxy representation. But because
the smaller planets (those with merely hundreds of millions of
inhabitants) will feel disenfranchised on a strict population count
representatives will also have geographical representation of
1 vote per world.
So in order for a resolution to pass in parliament it must
garner a majority of the proxy vote as well as a majority
of the geograhical vote.
Toss in the standard bill of rights fare and I'd say we have
a democracy.
Please note that all numbers and dates were pulled out of
thin air and are not carved in stone. (Indeed I was going
to suggest 5 reps per world but that would look to obviously
like a hiver manipulation.)
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:01:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
David P. Summers writes:
> Communications are too slow to really support such a system.
I wish I had any idea why people believe this is true. A republic-style
government is no more dependent on fast communication than an empire. Sure,
you can't do direct election of a leader (at least, not in any useful way),
but parliamentary government would work fine.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:02:55 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness
Frankie wrote:
>James wrote:
>>Though in my experience, the only reliable sub killers are submarines
>>themselves....
>
>Actually, the best sub-killer is a P3 Orion.
><grin>
Yea, they don't have the mechanical breakdown and morale problems that
turn other subkillers into targets
Charles
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:10:17 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
At 6:01 PM -0800 2/20/01, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>
> > Communications are too slow to really support such a system.
>
>I wish I had any idea why people believe this is true. A republic-style
>government is no more dependent on fast communication than an empire. Sure,
>you can't do direct election of a leader (at least, not in any useful way),
>but parliamentary government would work fine.
You really need to have people able to make local decisions (up to
fighting a war) on their own authority. That means you effectively
either have a feudal structure or a loose confederacy.
To give those local people all that power, and not have them just go
independant, you either have to lure them into cooperation for mutual
benefit (the confederation) or you have to have a decent sized stick
to whack them if they step out of line (the feudal system).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:11:21 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
In fact, the Emporer could be kept, with reduced powers of course.
I realise that this is not a Republican Democracy.... but it might be
the logical next step from the present fuedal structure.
The Emporer is forced to sign a document that allows the formation of a
'House of Citizens', drawn strictly from the untitled imperial populace
as a counterbalance to the increasing powers of the Moot.
If a hostile Moot was giving him trouble, the Emporer might even
consider doing it himself, as a political ploy to give him a alternative
support structure.
The strife will start when the 'Military Chains of Command' are taken
away from the Nobility and given to ministers in the Citizens house.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Jackson [mailto:ajackson@molly.iii.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 1:02 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Cc: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
David P. Summers writes:
> Communications are too slow to really support such a system.
I wish I had any idea why people believe this is true. A republic-style
government is no more dependent on fast communication than an empire.
Sure,
you can't do direct election of a leader (at least, not in any useful
way),
but parliamentary government would work fine.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:25:57 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
>Due to travel times involved a representative's term lasts untill
>his/her/it's replacement arrives. Special elections to replace
>reps who have left office early due to death, resignation,
>or election to higher parliaments will be held with the next
>regular election. leaving some seats open for a year or so.
In an effort to forestall such an event happening, as a lot of legislation
could be passed in that year, a delegation is sent, not just a
representative. Said Delegation has the Senator plus his runner up. By
law, said runner up may not be in the same vicinity as the Representative.
Assassination aside, this should help keep a planet represented at all times.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:24:14 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Shrieker World
>Did the gravity of the world inhabited by the Shriekers in District 268
>ever make it into official print? I don't have the relevant adventure
>available right now . . .
There's no mention of the gravity anywhere in Adventure 10.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:39:23 -0800
From: "James W. Brewer" <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:36:39 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
>
>
>Mr. Carlino,
> No offense taken sir, because I completely agree with every point in
>your post! Looking back at myself and my peers from over 15 years in the
>future makes me wince. ...
as a somewhat interesting aside: When I was preparing to get out, a
subcontractor we had on board was describing the hardships that existed in
the job market for a retired CPO. According to him there were just no jobs
to be had that paid as much as being on active duty. Of course he was a Mess
Specialist, which meant that he was doing a job that is often performed by
young people in their mid-twenties (as are most McD's managers.) He was a
sales rep for one of the galley suppliers. He couldn't conceive of the fact
that an ex-nuc, qualified as an Engineer Watch Officer (On steam and Gas
Turbines), who also managed to get a BS while on active duty, might be able
to find a job with a salary higher than an E-8 without great difficulty.
Basically very few people outside the military get the pay of a Chief Mess
Specialist, Yeoman or Personnel Specialist for doing the same job. Very few
Chief Electronic Technicians, Electricians, or any of the computer specialty
ratings make as little as they do in the military doing the same job. Just
more proof of your point.
One of the reasons for the equal pay rates in the US Army is that when push
comes to shove, every enlisted man is an infantryman. I had a friend that
arrived in Vietnam after a year of radio repair school with more clearances
than you can shake a stick at, just in time for the 68 Tet Offensive. He
promptly got put into a provisional platoon and shipped to an Infantry
Bn. He never did get to the depot he had orders for, ending up in the
Brigade support company after three months in the Infantry. His combat
infantry badge did raise some eye brows when he was rotated back to the states.
Jim Brewer
jwbrewer@ucsd.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 02:36:17 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
"Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net> writes:
>having nobles as the judiciary when they
>are major shareholders of megacorps et al. is inviting opportunities
>for corruption or at least the appearance of corruption.
<in character>
You're forgettin' a damned important point, young fellah - we're
gentlemen. And ladies, of course. We give our word of honour to try
each case fairly, accordin' to the Law. Deliberately makin' a false
decision is just Not Done. Noblesse oblige and all that, you know?
Dash it all, you'd think we were moneygrubbing middle class oiks, not
nobles sworn to the service of His Imperial Majesty.
Of course, if a chap feels he's just too closely involved with a case
to be impartial, he can always declare a conflict of interest and
disqualify himself. After all, appearances are important. Justice
must be *seen* to be done, what?
</IC>
>nobles. Who polices the police?
Social pressure...
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 02:36:19 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: fencing
"Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>Even during the Napoleonic and US civil wars,
>bayonets were rarely used (at least according to the number of bayonet
>wounds recorded by field surgeons).
I thought bayonets were more of a *defensive* weapon, at least during
the Napoleonic wars. They were used to fend off horses when the
batallion formed square... For actually dealing wounds to the enemy,
you'd use musket fire, artillery and/or cavalry sabres.
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:40:50 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re:
Larsen wrote:
> Believe me some of these folks shouldn't be allowed out of the house
without a keeper.
Salesmen or customers?
Charles
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:14:49 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: What could go wrong?
Hello Folks,
My players will be involved in the shakedown cruise of their ship next
week. The ship they have is a 7 year old Beowulf that had been hulled
repeatedly by a pirate working in cahoots with a Cortez Salvage ship. The
ship unfortunately, was reduced to scrap as she put up a fight against the
pirate ship. As it turns out, the players decided to mount replacement
engines after buying the ship for scrap. They have refurbished it and the
ship is now worth more than the points the character put into the ownership
thereof.
Consequently, the ship, likely to be christened THE PHOENIX RISES or
something like that, will have to have a few "quirks".
To date, the following are "quirks" that I've decided to incorporate into
the ship's personality so that the players can love her or hate her. If
any of you salty seaman types can give me a few other ideas <grin>...
1) the ship's internal sensors will occasionally indicate a fire in the
hold. This will be due to the fact that the shipyard used sensor parts
that were substituted for what was required. The manual states that such
substitutions are permitted, but part of the manual will be chewed up in an
accident rendering the data unreadable. The missing part of the manual
states "Except for parts Zk543-B manufactured on <fill in planet>, Zk543-B
will function as replacements for Klm543-A through Klm540-P." All the
shipyard could find was the part that said "Zk543-B will function as
replacements for Klm543-A through Klm540-P. Eventually, the players may
think to check for original specs...
2) the moorings for the manuever drives were not centered properly, and as
such, any delicate manuevering will result in a -1 to piloting skill. As a
result of not being centered, such drives will measure as giving off 100%
thrust, but will only give off 98% thrust.
3) None of the cables will be laid exactly as the schematics of the ship
originally required. This adds an additional 25% to the maintenance times
for the first 3 months until the players make a strong effort to document
their new layout. If they don't make this effort, the new hires for the
engine room will also suffer this 25% maintenance problems. In any event,
maintenance penalties only apply to electrical oriented work.
4) Life support bacterial chambers will contain a genegineered strain of
bacteria that were not authorized by the regulatory agency. As such, they
will be stronger than expected in the "be fruitful and multiply" aspect,
but will be less long lived than expected. This is strictly a function of
a Megacorporation attempting to cut corners *and* bypass Imperial testing
regulations with regards to life support. Should the players realize this,
they have grounds for a complaint that will result in their finding out
just how rapidly Megacorporations sweep legal problems under the rug. Of
course, if they make enough waves, some MegaCorp hack is going to get
canned, and they will aquire an enemy who hates their guts...
5) This is where the List's diabolical nature can excel in giving out
ideas. What else can go wrong that is annoying - potentially alarming,
even demoralizing, yet not deadly enough to make a ship become rated as
"unsafe".
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:11:06 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
>You're forgettin' a damned important point, young fellah - we're
>gentlemen. And ladies, of course. We give our word of honour to try
>each case fairly, accordin' to the Law. Deliberately makin' a false
>decision is just Not Done. Noblesse oblige and all that, you know?
>Dash it all, you'd think we were moneygrubbing middle class oiks, not
>nobles sworn to the service of His Imperial Majesty.
There's really only one example of noblesse oblige that worked reasonably
well in world history, the British one from about 1700-1900. And anyone who
thinks there weren't *numerous* exceptions for the benefit of the upper
class even in that case needs to take a close look at the Corn Laws again.
People are people, king or cat, and a large fraction of them wil always look
out for number one.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:18:11 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: re: Nobles and the Imperium
Well said Hal. I cannot disagree with any of what you said. But you
missed Counts and Marquis'.
But since you opened the door.
One of the things I found about Nobles that I liked was in Pocket
Empires. The breakdown of duties based on age:
"Age 1 to 20 Childhood
Age 20 to 40 Learning
Age 40 to 60 Ruling
Age 60 to 80 Advising"
Now I know of no historical president for this, but I think it might
work very well in the Imperium (with a few mods). First: average
lifespan for Nobles in the Imperium is/should be longer than 80 years,
so I would use 25 year blocks. Second: Imperial Nobles are to be in 2
places at once (thier fief and the Moot), therefore the "Advising" years
would be advising the Emporer at the Moot. This would allow good (as in
someone with local knowledge) representation at the Capital and good (as
in someone on site) governing at home. Third: Dukes and ArchDukes will
likely have constant corrispondence with the Emporer and more required
duties at home so would reverse this in that the "Ruling" years would be
spent sitting at the Moot learning interstellar politics and the
"Advising" years would be spent at home running the Duchy. Fourth: If
the son moves up to the "Advising" role andf the father is still around,
then the father could retire or move on to taking special duties from
the Emporer (i.e. heading up an investigating committee, special
diplomatic duties, go and see which of the competing heirs to the Barony
of Whatsit is worthy of conformation, etc). Fifth: This is not an
"Offical Policy" of the Third Imperium, and may or maynot be used based
on local preference.
Benifits: Experienced ruler at home. Experienced representation at the
Moot. Reduced complaints about Nobles using anagatithics (they are not
filling the same position for 50-100 years). I don't think I have
broken any cannon.
OK, now what have I missed. I know I missed something, what is it?
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:11:15 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
What were the corn laws?
- -----Original Message-----
From: Paul Drye [mailto:p_drye@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 2:11 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
>You're forgettin' a damned important point, young fellah - we're
>gentlemen. And ladies, of course. We give our word of honour to try
>each case fairly, accordin' to the Law. Deliberately makin' a false
>decision is just Not Done. Noblesse oblige and all that, you know?
>Dash it all, you'd think we were moneygrubbing middle class oiks, not
>nobles sworn to the service of His Imperial Majesty.
There's really only one example of noblesse oblige that worked
reasonably
well in world history, the British one from about 1700-1900. And anyone
who
thinks there weren't *numerous* exceptions for the benefit of the upper
class even in that case needs to take a close look at the Corn Laws
again.
People are people, king or cat, and a large fraction of them wil always
look
out for number one.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
________________________________________________________________________
_
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:12:54 -0500
From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness
Well, I for one think Larsen's on to something here. I've been monitoring
the list (a fancy word for lurking) lately, just waiting for the next flame
war to erupt. But since Larsen's been here, several promising ones just
haven't ignited. Now I'm hoping that when they finally do spark, Larsen's
high standards of civility will prevail:
pre-Larsen flame message:
"I read your post, you moronic single digit-IQ waste of air! Killfiling your
posts isn't enough--it would have to kill you, your dog, and all your
friends! Don't ever come to [my region of Earth] or I'll [increase your
natal allotment of bodily orfices]!"
post-Whipsnade flame:
"Sir: I have just received and read your post of the 12th instant. Its
language is, as you say, unusual; its arguements and statements utterly
one-sided, and its insinuations as unfounded as they are unbecoming.
"I am, &c.
A Poster"*
I remain, gentlesophonts,
your obt. srvt.,
Fred Ramen
- -----------
*Slightly modified from the text of a letter from Jefferson Davis to Genl.
J.E. Johnston, 1861.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:04:09 -0500
From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
IMTU the Imperium subtly but actively ridicules the concept of democracy,
representative or not, for anything larger than a planet. The attitude is
similar to that of the aristocracy of the 17th/18th century in Europe
towards democratic reformers...
The Ine Givar have revived a mishmash of literature from pre-Interstellar
Wars Terra (under the theory that the TC became increasingly a military
dictatorship as the wars progressed). Of course, a lot of the records are
garbled, or lost, or completely misinterpreted, so _Capital_ and _1984_ are
both key texts for them, as well as the _Surrealist Manifesto_...
Fred Ramen
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:43:21 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
>From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
>Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
...
>> 1) Democracies require timely communication between the
>> electorate and the elected. For low tech worlds this limits
...
>Why? Just elect your representative, send him to Capital for a few years,
>and trust that he'll vote the right way. Nobles vote in the Moot all the
>time without the latest information about their homeworlds, right? Of
Sure, and a cynic might say that said nobles only have to look in the
mirror to consult the interests of their main constituent :>
>course, this means that elections will be decided less on the basis of
>stands on particular issues than on the question of the candidate's
>integrity and ability to make the right decision without checking the
>polls, but is this such a bad thing?
"Representative democracy is an oxymoron" - anon. Imperial apologist
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:10:35 -0800
From: "Brian Jenkins" <brianjenk@home.com>
Subject: Re: En Garde
Well if you do want to play En Garde by PBEM there are several games online
with expanded rule sets. You can look at my game at
http://www.hijenks.com/engarde or you can check out the En Garde PBEM web
ring at http://www.hijenks.com/egwebring . My rule set is also available if
you care to start your own game and any of us will be glad to help. I even
have a set of spreadsheets and programs I have written to help adjudicate
the turns. The games in the webring are not only traditional but there are
variants also. Players range from 16 in some games to up to 65 in games
like Orleans (At the above mentioned URL) If you want to get involved or
start your own you can email me at engarde@hijenks.com and I will be glad to
help you out with rulesets or getting going finding players. Let me know if
you are interested!
Brian
P.S. I know there are at least a couple of members on the list here that
play in my game. It is a blast!
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian or Katts" <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: En Garde
> >From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
> >Subject: Re: En Garde
> >
> >On 19 Feb 2001, at 19:22, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> >
> >> Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to allow
for
> >> female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever Amber_ and
_Desiree_.
> >> Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing the king even moreso, but
both
> >> had their rewards.
> >
> >Ohhh Ohh Ohhh, see must have. I suppose that these have long since
> >disappeared into the great void of "might-have-been" (he says really
really
> >hoping for an answer in the negative).
>
> Mon freres,
>
> I fear we have no choice. We can, nay, must free France from the tyrrany
that is the lazy, corrupt
> Jansenists that have the King in their thrall.
>
> Oh, and that coat, m'sieur it is c'est bon.
>
> Ian Whitchurch
>
> PS I know it is OT, but I feel we have no choice but to start an En Garde
PBEM. Who is reffing ?
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:13:07 -0800
From: "Brian Jenkins" <brianjenk@home.com>
Subject: Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"
As I posted before if you really want to run a PBEM En Garde game I and
others can help in that area. I have been running the Orleans PBEM En Garde
game for over a year.
Brian
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <hal@buffnet.net>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 6:55 PM
Subject: Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"
> I was lucky enough to meet John and his lovely bride when they came to see
> the United States some time back (Danie says Hi John and Alison!). In any
> event, he was kind enough to bring with him, a recent copy of En Guarde...
>
> Problem is, I haven't the slightest clue on how to run a play by email
> campaign like that. Hell, I'm having problems trying to figure out how to
> bring FAR TRADER to the computer for long term use. I just realized that
> the size of the database now has to utilize 400+ records, each with 1200
> elements (hex ID along with Average Trade Volume and Average Passenger
> Volume)!
>
>
> Hal
>
> Come Hell or High water, that book is gonna fit into that blasted program!
> (and no, it isn't come Hal or high water either...)
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3718
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3719
Date: | 2/20/01 9:46:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 21 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3719
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: En garde
Re: Democracy Now!
RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
re: the corn laws?
Re: Geophysical/Climate question
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Civility and Politeness
Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"
Re: HTML gibberish
Re: fencing
Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:18:53 +0000
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
Actually you don't really have a democracy...
A weirdly nor quite bi-cameral parlimentary republic...sort of... kind
of reminds one of the Electoral college, eh?
I would suggest that electing a single representative per world, and
then giving population based voting rights is addresses neither the
concerns of the hi or Lo-Pop worlds. Functionally, one or two Hi-Pop
systems WILL control the legislature, regardless of a geographical vote.
A better alternative would be a bi-cameral house; Lower House w
population based representation, and an upper house (the house of 'sober
2nd thought') would be geographically based.
Something along the lines of the Canadian (Commons & Senate) or British
(Commons and Lords) Parliaments would be workable, especially if you are
leaning toward a constitutional monarchy. The Lords could be used to
give the existing Nobles something to do...
Doug :-)
"Three cheers for Her Majesty!!!! Up the Colonies..."
DaveShayne wrote:
>
> > Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 11:03:43 -0600
> > From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
> > Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
>
> <snip>
>
> > Who says it has to be the size of the 3I? Who says the democratic
> > mechanisms need to be similar to real world ones?
> >
> > Member worlds could select Senators based on whatever criteria
> > or government type they want. The length of term of a Senator in
> > the Imperial Senate might be 10, 20 or even 30 years. A President
> > could be elected by the Senate every 10 or so years.
>
> My scheme for an Imperium wide democracy might look a little like this.
>
> Firstly the government is highly republican in form. Every year elections
> for representatives to the subsector parliament (insert apropriate vilani
> term here) are held. Each planet elects one sophont who serves a
> seven year term. (This means that every planet would have seven
> reps in the subsector parliament.) The elections occur on Holiday
> (might as well keep the day)
>
> The subsector parliament, meeting 3 months after Holiday, chooses one
> of it's members to serve as representative to the sector parliament.
> These representatives also serve for 7 years giving each subsector
> 7 representatives in the sector parliament. The parliament would
> also choose a president (insert apropriate vilani title here) to serve
> untill next year.
>
> The sector parliament, meeting 6 months after Holiday, chooses a
> rep to the Imperium (Democrium?) parliament and a president for
> the sector.
>
> The Democrium (I think I like this term) parliament meeting the day
> before Holiday chooses the President of the whole shebang and
> now the government is complete.
>
> The bureaucratic structure answering to the various presidents
> caries out the will of the elected government (in theory at least)
> and performs the day to day actions that allow any large society
> to function.
>
> Due to travel times involved a representative's term lasts untill
> his/her/it's replacement arrives. Special elections to replace
> reps who have left office early due to death, resignation,
> or election to higher parliaments will be held with the next
> regular election. leaving some seats open for a year or so.
>
> On to practical matters. This system gives equal representation
> to all planets regardless of population. Since the High Pop
> planets will of course not consider this acceptable we need to
> amend the voting technique. The method I propose would be
> to give each representative voting power based on the population
> of it's homeworld. Call this the proxy representation. But because
> the smaller planets (those with merely hundreds of millions of
> inhabitants) will feel disenfranchised on a strict population count
> representatives will also have geographical representation of
> 1 vote per world.
>
> So in order for a resolution to pass in parliament it must
> garner a majority of the proxy vote as well as a majority
> of the geograhical vote.
>
> Toss in the standard bill of rights fare and I'd say we have
> a democracy.
>
> Please note that all numbers and dates were pulled out of
> thin air and are not carved in stone. (Indeed I was going
> to suggest 5 reps per world but that would look to obviously
> like a hiver manipulation.)
>
> David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:15:04 -0800
From: "Brian Jenkins" <brianjenk@home.com>
Subject: Re: En garde
I also have two copies of the GDW 2nd edition En Garde rules. Plus I think
I have them in .pdf format somewhere around here.
Not to mention the expanded rules I use in my game. It includes things like
church postions, playwrights, the royal academy of science, among others.
Brian
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: En garde
> In a message dated 20-Feb-01 5:18:52 AM Central Standard Time,
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
>
> > GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :
> > > Shortly after En Garde came out, I wrote a proposed addition to allow
for
> > > female players, loosely based on movies such as _Forever Amber_ and
> > > _Desiree_. Seducing the Cardinal was risky and seducing the king
> > > even moreso, but both had their rewards.
> > >
> > > There was even allowance for enlisting in the army disguised as a
man,
> > > although this involved certain risks also.
> > >
> > > LKW
> > >
> > > Also had rules for the Navy -- heavily influenced by Hornblower et
al.
> >
> > Is there any chance of these being made accesible anywhere ?
>
> If I could ever get my stuff from the storage locker 1100 miles away, I
might
> try to get them into print somehow.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:22:04 +0000
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
The Republican style of government historically tends toward centralism,
or fragmentation. The alternatives are confederacy, or parliamentary
federalism (more centralized than a confederacy, less than a republican
model
Doug :-)
Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> David P. Summers writes:
>
> > Communications are too slow to really support such a system.
>
> I wish I had any idea why people believe this is true. A republic-style
> government is no more dependent on fast communication than an empire. Sure,
> you can't do direct election of a leader (at least, not in any useful way),
> but parliamentary government would work fine.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 04:34:53 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
"What were the corn laws?"
Mr. Harris,
The Corn Laws were a series of statutes in Britain that forbid the
importation of corn (what North Americans call wheat) except at certain
prices and quantities. It was ensure high market prices for home grown
corn. Seeing as nobles owned most of the farms growing said crop, keeping
the prices high was in their best interest.
Eventually, the rise in population, coupled with the labor needs of the
newly indutrialized cities and towns, meant that Britain could no longer
feed itself (this occurred roughly between 1820 to 1850). Agitation to
repeal the Corn Laws was actually greater than agitation to allow more men
to the vote. After all, wheat is bread, and bread is life.
Of course the nobility, and the newly wealthy enscounced in their
rotten borough seats in the Commons, resisted any efforts to reduce the
tariffs out of self interest.
A good parallel for us might be the dairy price supports championed by
Sen. Proxmire. Intially meant to ensure that milk would available for
children (a cynical motive if there ever was one), they have slowly driven
smaller dairies out of the marketplace be reducing profit margins.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:40:48 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: the corn laws?
>From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
>Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
>
>What were the corn laws?
Price supports by way of import controls on staple cereals. The
conspicuous failure was early in the Irish famine, although they
were much maligned by the factory-owning progressives, who could
only pay lower wages if food costs came down. Later, agricultural
goods from the emerging world market made food cheap and led to
the free trade policies that probably reduced the UK's relative
prosperity faster than would otherwise have been the case.
There are few ways of re-distributing incomes that _haven't_
been thought of; different countries just use different ones.
Steven Hudson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:09:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Geophysical/Climate question
In mail you write:
> Hello Leonard,
>
>>The trick is that rain clouds are in the troposphere. And thus, the
>>dust washes out quickly. Dust in the *stratosphere* lingers for
>>extended periods.
>
> What mechanism brings the dust from the Stratosphere down to lower levels?
> I suspect <sheepish grin> that it is gravity - but what keeps it up there
> in defiance of gravity?
Brownian motion. The particles are so small that their motion is far
more determined by random impacts with air molecules than by gravity.
So once they get up there, it takes a "random walk" to get out of the
stratosphere. And that takes a lot of time, give that several km having
to be covered with average "step" sizes too small to see.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:21:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
In mail you write:
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Just as an example, consider that in the US (and probably most of the
>> other countries that this list has readers in) women are slightly in
>> the majority. Which means that if it ever came down to it, they *could*
>> vote to place restrictions on men.
>
> I'm not sure that some of the whackier anti-porn laws don't qualify,
> although technically and in some cases actually they restrict both
> genders.
The old quote about "The law, in it's majesty forbids the rich and poor
alike from sleeping under bridges" (not exact, but you get the idea).
>> Well, there are also people who want their government to give them a
>> share of other people's money, and to make other people conform to
>> their idea of what the "right way to live" is.
>>
>> And that latter is the scariest aspect of democracy. Ask anybody who
>> has ever had laws passed that discriminate against "their kind". Or
>> even who has had such laws placed on the ballot where they live.
>>
>> I've been there. And until you have, don't be so quick to claim
>> democracy as being the best form of government.
>
> Yea, verily. Me too.
I had a few nightmares I *don't* want to remember after a couple of
people died in a firebombing.
>> Majority rule sounds great until it's *your* blood the mob is howling for.
>
> Can I put that on my quotes page, Leonard?
Sure, though I'm not sure if I'm repeating something I heard elsewhere.
Since I collect quotes, I wouldn't object of you sent me a copy of the
page. :-)
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:26:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
In mail you write:
> Kiri Aradia Morgan writes:
>
>> > I've been there. And until you have, don't be so quick to claim
>> > democracy as being the best form of government.
>>
>> Yea, verily. Me too.
>
> It's worth noting that the US is not a democracy (in fact, I can't think of
> any large political entity ever that has truly been a democracy). The US
> is a constitutional republic.
True, but the laws that I and Kiri are referring to *are* ballot
inititiaves. They got put on the ballot by gathering enough signatures,
and were voted on directly by the people.
And while I support the idea of the initiative process, I shudder every
time I hear someone complaining the courts overturning "the will of the
people" when an inititiave is ruled unconstitutional.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 04:49:59 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness
From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com>
"I for one think Larsen's on to something here. I've been monitoring
the list (a fancy word for lurking) lately, just waiting for the next flame
war to erupt. But since Larsen's been here, several promising ones just
haven't ignited. Now I'm hoping that when they finally do spark, Larsen's
high standards of civility will prevail:..."
Mr. Ramen,
Please sir, your praise is misplaced.
While my method of posting may be archaic, if not overly verbose, I
seriously doubt that my feeble presence has had anything to do with the
level of civility here on the TML.
I myself have stumbled several times in my few weeks here. I foolishly
posted to the religion/evolution donneybrook not once once, but twice. I
kicked off a rather strident "deep space fuel cache" discussion and gave
Shaggy3D the rough edge of my tongue. Just recently, I managed to
greviously insult one the founders and leading lights of all Olde Our Game
with a flippant and thoughtless remark.
Hardly the actions of a man of civility and tact.
We may be sure that the members of the list treat one another with
dignity and respect because they are adults, and not because of some
purported effect my meager presence might have.
The only effect my presence seems to have on people is a slight
quivering of their nostrils before they surruptitiously check the bottom of
their shoes for canine feces.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:48:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
In mail you write:
> Every time I see this subject line, I wonder who it is.
> Kiri ^_^
Well, Kiri, I'm sure you'd be able to find *someone* on the list that'd
let you buy them. I'd offer, but I don't want to relocate. <g>
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:53:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"
In mail you write:
> Problem is, I haven't the slightest clue on how to run a play by email
> campaign like that. Hell, I'm having problems trying to figure out how to
> bring FAR TRADER to the computer for long term use. I just realized that
> the size of the database now has to utilize 400+ records, each with 1200
> elements (hex ID along with Average Trade Volume and Average Passenger
> Volume)!
So? I used to support some folks running dBase files that had dozens of
fields and around 100k records. Whever they did an update, you could
*see* the performance hit. We finally moved their databases onto a
seperate file server.
And this was back when 640 meg was still a big drive.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:52:50 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: HTML gibberish
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:39:56 EST GDWGAMES@aol.com writes:
> Gentles
>
> Are my posts appearing as mounds of HTML gibberish like Shaggy3D's?
> (just to
> pick a random example) I'm using AOL and not taking any special
> steps to
> prevent it.
>
> LKW
It's showing up fine, at least on my monitor.
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:13:19 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: fencing
>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
>Subject: Re: fencing
...
>>Even during the Napoleonic and US civil wars,
>>bayonets were rarely used (at least according to the number of bayonet
>>wounds recorded by field surgeons).
/old joke/ after being bayonetted they usually don't make it
to aid stations... /old joke/
>I thought bayonets were more of a *defensive* weapon, at least during
>the Napoleonic wars. They were used to fend off horses when the
>batallion formed square... For actually dealing wounds to the enemy,
>you'd use musket fire, artillery and/or cavalry sabres.
They're more of the mechanism of the infantry shock alternative
to fire; the defensive appearance is due to the lack of an option
of carrying shock to enemy cavalry.
Not that smoothbores didn't give cavalry the option of staying safe :>
Steven Hudson
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:21:17 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:00:19 -0600, Terry Mixon <tmixon@ghg.net>
wrote:
>JR Holmes wrote:
>
>> >> That's exactly the sort of software that a functional trader would
>> >> want to have running on his ship's computer. But that is just the
>> >> basic version of the software. Later versions would include a way of
>> >> indexing those jumps cross-indexed by the cost of jump fuel as
>> >> reported on each stop's fuel status reports for other planets.
>> >
>> >As well as what commodities were avalable and which were in demand, so
>> >he could trade along the way.
>>
>> Well, that would make it just too easy. If all merchants used that
>> software exclusively, they certainly wouldn't feel like a "free
>> trader", they'd end up taking all their cargo instructions from their
>> routing program. I would rather keep my merchant owners looking at
>> the program results and then using their own intuition to vary from
>> that optimal route in order to take a plum cargo to that planet just a
>> single jump detour away.
>
>Imagine the hoopla if a hacker deleted juicy spots trade info and
>inserted non interesting trade info? Talk about sewing up the competition.
Were I in a position to do that, I would hold off on doing that until
a single big score was available. This is not the sort of thing which
could be done more than once or twice before suspicion was aroused.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:23:20 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> A good parallel for us might be the dairy price supports championed by
> Sen. Proxmire. Intially meant to ensure that milk would available for
> children (a cynical motive if there ever was one), they have slowly driven
> smaller dairies out of the marketplace be reducing profit margins.
There have been screwed up dairy laws in this country since day zero.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:24:08 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:37:00 +1100, "Robert O'Connor"
<robocon@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>Jeff Greenly wrote :-
><Describes violent volcanic pre-conditions>
>> I am especially interested in weather conditions.
>Temperature drops due to the suspended ejecta have been talked about.
>I don't know what sort of climate you're shooting for, so you may want to
>limit this effect.
>Ignoring particulates, your list of gases includes 2 very potent greenhouse
>ones (CO2/SO2). These will limit any fall in average temperatures in the
>long run.
>
>The sky will look orange-reddish rather than blue due to scattering of
>sunlight from the suspended ash.
>
>The effect on rainfall will be driven by cooling effects rather than
>particle nucleation per se. The pH of the rain will be lower in and around
>the fallout plumes of the volcanoes (e.g. dissolved sulphuric acid). This
>will have effects on plant life, soil and ground water quality (and even the
>pH and salinity of the oceans, if large enough). Erosion will be
>accelerated, but the local geology may well compensate for this, given the
>volcanic activity.
>
>Thunderstorms, etc. are less likely in the long term as the transfer of heat
>energy from the atmosphere to the ocean is reduced (more reflected into
>space by the dust). It looks like there will eventually be positive feedback
>effects on climate once ocean circulation changes if the dust levels in the
>atmosphere persist. In other words, things could continue to get colder and
>colder until everything freezes over. As I've written above, though, the
>CO2/SO2 in the atmosphere will put brakes on this (but it might not be
>enough)...
><SNIP><
This brings up the possibility represented by a recent theory
regarding the early Earth's climate. Per this theory (which I'm
unfortunately unable to cite), the Earth would swing between two
extremes of climate.
Extreme One was characterized by an ice-world appearance. Once the ice
caps exceeded approximately the 45th parallel, the effect became
self-reinforcing and the planet rapidly became ice covered.
This resulted in a long period of decreased reduction of atmospheric
CO2 as plant activity was minimal and the natural precipitation as CO2
was bound into rock was minimized due to cold temperature and little
exposed surface rock to act upon.
With the continual addition of CO2 (and other gases) from volcanic
sources, CO2 levels are thought to have slowly increased far above
modern levels. This in turn caused the expected greenhouse effect,
which eventually brought about:
Extreme Two begins when the increasing temperatures caused by the
greenhouse effect overwhelm the ice covering and melt the ice,
eventually completely. This brings back photosynthetic life in an
extremely favorable environment of high CO2 and elevated temperature,
plus the elevated temperature promotes the chemical binding of CO2
into rock. This activity slowly decreases the elevated greenhouse
effect and reduces the average temperature.
Eventually CO2 is reduced to the point that the ice returns and the
cycle begins again.
What surprised the investigators was the comparatively rapid swings
between these extremes that their models suggested. The cycle time,
IIRC, was little more than 100 years.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:42:33 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
"David P. Summers" wrote:
> At 10:04 PM -0600 2/19/01, Steve Daniels wrote:
> >A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.
> >With a goal to create a Federal Republic type
> >system.
>
> Communications are too slow to really support such a system.
[Formal Adversarial Mode]
Sir, you are welcome to your opinion but I believe it shows
a lack of creativity or at least a closed view on the matter.
And there may be a significant amount of actual history that
would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion. For
example, the United States of America until the invention of
the telegraph. Better scholars of a classical bent than I might
provide enlighting information of the Roman example.
Even without resorting to empirical evidence, one might challenge
your assertion on it's own merits. What do you mean by "support"?
Does that mean that it would be impossible to even start such
a political movement? Surely not. Is there a minimum time threshold
at which the observer can conclude the system was support or not?
If so, where is that threshold? A decade? A century? A millenium?
Further, your assertion implies that there is a determinable minimum
speed which may support such a system, whatever that support actually
means. I can only wonder upon what evidence that implication rests
upon, if indeed it has one. And if it does have some empirical basis,
I wonder in what ways that has been challenged or tested. Would
such evidence preclude different conclusions for different cultures in
different settings? I think there is no reasonable rational basis to
conclude that.
My statements, which have led to this digital melee, merely expressed
a desire for a political movement. They contained no conclusions about
the results of that movement, were the movement to actually occur.
Neither did they imply success. Many political movements that fail in
their announced goals and desires nonetheless effect significant change.
One glaringly obvious example that comes to my mind is the attempt
of several states of the U.S.A. to create their own Confederate government
distinct from the Union. Certainly, it failed by any objective measure,
to realize its goals of independence. But the event was the engine for
significant changes in the restored Union. A similar pattern might
result from a democratic revolution. Or it might not. I would be
particularly intrigued by the possible result of a constitutional monarchy,
as some have suggested in other posts, but that's just me.
So, my dear good sir, I hope you will forgive me if I disagree with
your bare assertion and dismiss it in future discussions.
Thank you for your time.
[Informal Aversarial Mode]
Sez you! :-P
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:44:44 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 04:34:53 -0000, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
>From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
>
> "What were the corn laws?"
>
>Mr. Harris,
> The Corn Laws were a series of statutes in Britain that forbid the
>importation of corn (what North Americans call wheat) except at certain
>prices and quantities. It was ensure high market prices for home grown
>corn. Seeing as nobles owned most of the farms growing said crop, keeping
>the prices high was in their best interest.
> Eventually, the rise in population, coupled with the labor needs of the
>newly indutrialized cities and towns, meant that Britain could no longer
>feed itself (this occurred roughly between 1820 to 1850). Agitation to
>repeal the Corn Laws was actually greater than agitation to allow more men
>to the vote. After all, wheat is bread, and bread is life.
> Of course the nobility, and the newly wealthy enscounced in their
>rotten borough seats in the Commons, resisted any efforts to reduce the
>tariffs out of self interest.
> A good parallel for us might be the dairy price supports championed by
>Sen. Proxmire. Intially meant to ensure that milk would available for
>children (a cynical motive if there ever was one), they have slowly driven
>smaller dairies out of the marketplace be reducing profit margins.
Sadly, as a resident of Wisconsin, USA, and as one, who on more than
one occasion voted for Mr. Proxmire (don't ask what kind of
dunderheads were often running against him when I reached voting age),
I must inform you that, though the idea of dairy price supports would
appear to benefit the dairy farmers of Wisconsin, that was not the
case.
The way those dairy price supports were written was to specify higher
minimum prices for milk produced based upon a formula calculating the
distance away from the state of Wisconsin, which had the minimum
supported price. Thus, though Wisconsin farmers were often producing
milk at a lower price than farmers in Florida, for instance, they had
to charge the higher price to Florida purchasers, if any could be
found. This was intended to encourage and support dairy farmers
outside the state of Wisconsin on the theory that milk, being a
perishable product, was better produced close to the consumers. The
price supports did exactly that and promoted a boom in the
construction of dairy farms as far away from Wisconsin as possible.
California is now the largest milk producer in the US.
Thus, we now have the situation, as occurred last summer (and several
others prior to that), where the price for milk in Wisconsin was below
the cost of production. Unfortunately, the capital costs of a dairy
farm require a relatively high minimum expenditure to maintain the
livestock, which greatly penalizes dairy farmers in "bad years".
In recent years, Wisconsin's senators have been trying to _end_ the
dairy price supports rather than extend them.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3719
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3720
Date: | 2/21/01 5:11:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 21 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3720
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
Re: fencing
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: fencing
Re: Corn Laws
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: HTML gibberish
Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question
Democracy and X-boat routes
RE: What could go wrong?
Copyright
Re: Copyright
RE: Copyright Laws
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: A. Bertram Chandler was Re: Civility and Politeness
Re: fencing
Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:53:12 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:25:57 -0800, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>>Due to travel times involved a representative's term lasts untill
>>his/her/it's replacement arrives. Special elections to replace
>>reps who have left office early due to death, resignation,
>>or election to higher parliaments will be held with the next
>>regular election. leaving some seats open for a year or so.
>
>In an effort to forestall such an event happening, as a lot of legislation
>could be passed in that year, a delegation is sent, not just a
>representative. Said Delegation has the Senator plus his runner up. By
>law, said runner up may not be in the same vicinity as the Representative.
>Assassination aside, this should help keep a planet represented at all times.
As such a Senator, I would probably be more concerned about
assassination by my "runner up" than by anyone else. In many
elections, the "runner up" is the person I was running against...
Now that would be an interesting situation for some court plotting.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 05:53:05
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
>>
>>There's a gizmo that's been kicking around as a lab prototype for
>>around 20 years now. By using MHD effects, it's possible to make a
>>flame act as a speaker.
>This is way too cool.
About thirty years ago, I actually set up a system in a lab that generated
sound from a flame. I'm desperately trying to remember how we did it. The
set up was not all that complicated. I think it was based on a Scientific
American article. Does anyone have the reference? The sound was not great,
but there was a nice light show to go with it.
John
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:12:32 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: fencing
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Tod Glenn wrote:
> > The main gauche, OTOH, was designed specifically to be an off-hand
> > secondary weapon/parrying tool.
> Hence the name "left hand", as opposed to main droite or "right hand"
Hm, do lefthanded fencers use main drôite?
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 06:51:54 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
"Sadly, as a resident of Wisconsin, USA, and as one, who on more than
one occasion voted for Mr. Proxmire (don't ask what kind of
dunderheads were often running against him when I reached voting age),
I must inform you that, though the idea of dairy price supports would
appear to benefit the dairy farmers of Wisconsin, that was not the
case."
Mr. Holmes,
After reading your post, sir, I stand corrected. As is usual with my
posts, I attempted the stretch a bare amount of information, or an incorrect
assessment of such infomation, to make a point. It seems that final
paragraphs of my efforts always seem to get me into so much trouble.
Hopefully, I will learn when to stop typing and thus raise the value of my
posts by decreasing their actual size.
My incomplete knowledge of federal milk price supports, and my slur of
Sen. Proxmire's support of them, came from a landlord of mine. I rented a
farm house from this gentleman. He would visit occasionally and bemoan the
fact that he and his brother had found it impossible to continue in the
family dairy business. I should of discounted his opinions seeing that he
only visited to collect his check, "borrow" a few beers, and hide from his
wife.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:02:02 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
"As such a Senator, I would probably be more concerned about
assassination by my "runner up" than by anyone else. In many elections, the
"runner up" is the person I was running against..."
"Now that would be an interesting situation for some court plotting."
Gentlemen,
I too have problems with both the "winner" and the "runner-up" being
sent along to legislature. The possiblilty of either party assassinating
the other would be too great. The "runner-up" would be very tempted to
"win" the election by other means and the "winner" could be toying with the
idea of a "pre-emptive" assassination. When one adds the other candidates,
some of who might stoop to an "untimely" death in order to promote
themselves, the situation gets becomes frought with intrigue. Good for role
playing perhaps, but poor for governments.
The US Constitution originally had a mechanism like this for the
presidency and vice presidency; the runner-up of the presidential vote
became the vice president. Fortunately, this provision was quickly amended
before national politics got too "hinky".
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:04:23 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: fencing
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
"Hence the name "left hand", as opposed to main droite or "right hand"
"Hm, do lefthanded fencers use main drôite?"
Shame on you! What a very sinister idea!
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:27:46 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Corn Laws
>From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
>Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
>
>What were the corn laws?
Basically, Britain wasnt allowed to import food.
This worked to the benefit of the Tory landowners, and against everybody else.
"Cheap Bread" was one of the great election slogans of 19th century Britain.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:35:45 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
At 11:42 PM -0600 2/20/01, Steve Daniels wrote:
>"David P. Summers" wrote:
>
> > At 10:04 PM -0600 2/19/01, Steve Daniels wrote:
> > >A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.
> > >With a goal to create a Federal Republic type
> > >system.
> >
> > Communications are too slow to really support such a system.
>
>[Formal Adversarial Mode]
>
>Sir, you are welcome to your opinion but I believe it shows
>a lack of creativity or at least a closed view on the matter.
Actually, this view is the basis for why the Imperium was given a
feudal system. The view, as I understand it, was the communications
would make a difference in government types and that governments were
modeled on the Spanish and Roman Empires. So, in a way, this point
is "canonical". (Do I get the "finding why my view is canon" prize
:-).
As to creativity, I don't find a modern western democracy that novel.
I do think the idea that I posted about introducing fast
communications could be done interestingly. One could explore how
new technologies reshape environments. At first the establishment
would see it as a way to reinforce the current system. But then new
consequences would come in; Would the Emperor seek to pull the local
noble more directly under his rule? Would the nobles respond (maybe
like the Magna Carta)? How would other parties seek to use the new
technology? Would you have a internet spring up?
>And there may be a significant amount of actual history that
>would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion. For
>example, the United States of America until the invention of
the telegraph.
In fact the US didn't have the kind of travel times that the Imperium faces.
>Better scholars of a classical bent than I might
>provide enlighting information of the Roman example.
The Roman Empire is an example of how a Republic couldn't maintain a
democracy over the stresses. Though, IIRC, Rome did not try and
extend democracy to all its territories, so the size of the area that
they tried to keep the Republic for was smaller than the size of
empire.
>Even without resorting to empirical evidence, one might challenge
>your assertion on it's own merits. What do you mean by "support"?
>Does that mean that it would be impossible to even start such
>a political movement? Surely not.
See my other reply....
>My statements, which have led to this digital melee, merely expressed
>a desire for a political movement. They contained no conclusions about
>the results of that movement, were the movement to actually occur.
>Neither did they imply success. Many political movements that fail in
>their announced goals and desires nonetheless effect significant change.
One could see a movement for democracy in regions. I think slow
communications are going to end up preventing a popular movement from
mainting cohesiveness and the diversity of localities is going to
mean the reception is going to be different on differnt worlds. That
say to me that if the Imperium is weak enough that popular movements
can bring it down, it will mostly likely just fall apart.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 07:51:33
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
Well, two signs of old age. Not only can't I remember the details of how we
set up the "musical flame", but now I'm answering my own questions. The
process we used involved injecting a salt solution into the base of a gas
flame and then running a modulated current through the flame. The Scientific
American article would have been in the "Amateur Scientist" around 1968 or
69. The flame would pulse with the music. I'll try to find the article.
This approach using rocket engines in test stands would provide a super
sound system for a Traveller-era band. I also have visions of rockets
lifting off to the sounds of their own musical accompaniment!
John
>From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
>>>
>>>There's a gizmo that's been kicking around as a lab prototype for
>>>around 20 years now. By using MHD effects, it's possible to make a
>>>flame act as a speaker.
>
>>This is way too cool.
>
>About thirty years ago, I actually set up a system in a lab that generated
>sound from a flame. I'm desperately trying to remember how we did it. The
>set up was not all that complicated. I think it was based on a Scientific
>American article. Does anyone have the reference? The sound was not great,
>but there was a nice light show to go with it.
>
>John
>
>_________________________________________________________________
>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 03:02:52 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
>Gentlemen,
> I too have problems with both the "winner" and the "runner-up" being
>sent along to legislature. The possiblilty of either party assassinating
>the other would be too great. The "runner-up" would be very tempted to
>"win" the election by other means and the "winner" could be toying with the
>idea of a "pre-emptive" assassination. When one adds the other candidates,
>some of who might stoop to an "untimely" death in order to promote
>themselves, the situation gets becomes frought with intrigue. Good for role
>playing perhaps, but poor for governments.
> The US Constitution originally had a mechanism like this for the
>presidency and vice presidency; the runner-up of the presidential vote
>became the vice president. Fortunately, this provision was quickly amended
>before national politics got too "hinky".
Esteemed Plotters,
I see that I mispoke, which means Politics and I shall never mix in a
manner satisfactory to myself. I should have pointed out, that it was not
meant that the "runner up" of the election would be part of the delegation,
but that the Delegation would have a Senator, and a "back up" individual.
Such an individual may be appointed by the winning Senator himself, or such
an individual might be appointed by the world in general. The "runner up"
aspect was meant to convey an immediate replacement. Of course, the
"plotting" aspect would prove to be interesting per se, but that in reality
- - such a replacement should be someone the senator himself/herself trusts.
By making it that they are always in reserve means that more than likely,
the person who is the back up senator is making a lot of public relations
visits and the like.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:32:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: HTML gibberish
In mail you write:
> Gentles
>
> Are my posts appearing as mounds of HTML gibberish like Shaggy3D's? (just to
> pick a random example) I'm using AOL and not taking any special steps to
> prevent it.
Your posts are fine. Just *don't* upgrade to AOL 6.0 software!
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:59:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question
In mail you write:
> This brings up the possibility represented by a recent theory
> regarding the early Earth's climate. Per this theory (which I'm
> unfortunately unable to cite), the Earth would swing between two
> extremes of climate.
>
> Extreme One was characterized by an ice-world appearance. Once the ice
> caps exceeded approximately the 45th parallel, the effect became
> self-reinforcing and the planet rapidly became ice covered.
>
> This resulted in a long period of decreased reduction of atmospheric
> CO2 as plant activity was minimal and the natural precipitation as CO2
> was bound into rock was minimized due to cold temperature and little
> exposed surface rock to act upon.
>
> With the continual addition of CO2 (and other gases) from volcanic
> sources, CO2 levels are thought to have slowly increased far above
> modern levels. This in turn caused the expected greenhouse effect,
> which eventually brought about:
>
> Extreme Two begins when the increasing temperatures caused by the
> greenhouse effect overwhelm the ice covering and melt the ice,
> eventually completely. This brings back photosynthetic life in an
> extremely favorable environment of high CO2 and elevated temperature,
> plus the elevated temperature promotes the chemical binding of CO2
> into rock. This activity slowly decreases the elevated greenhouse
> effect and reduces the average temperature.
>
> Eventually CO2 is reduced to the point that the ice returns and the
> cycle begins again.
>
> What surprised the investigators was the comparatively rapid swings
> between these extremes that their models suggested. The cycle time,
> IIRC, was little more than 100 years.
No, the tranistion from "normal temp" to "complete iceage" was a
century or so. And the transition from "complete ice age" to "super
tropical" and then back to normal was also only a few 100 years.
But the "complete ice age" and "normal" stages lasted tens of thousands
of years.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 03:57:31 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Democracy and X-boat routes
See - this is where most of you lose me...
As I see it, any government would work within the Imperium provided the
following holds true:
a) local governments oversee day to day events. The analogy here would be
townships (despite the fact we are talking about an entire planet). The
fact that the Overlords (be it a democratic government or Fuedalistic one)
have space travel and radio communications means that the "global village"
syndrome would come into being rather quickly for less fortunate tech level
worlds, and is meaningless for higher tech level worlds (they already have
lightning fast communications).
b) relatively local regional (in this case, a subsector or perhaps 1/2
subsector) requires that this level of government be responsive to level
A's needs, yet answer to the higher ups in the chain of command. This
would be similar to a state or Province. It co-ordinates the activity of a
lot of smaller governments into a larger unit.
c) the overall level of government sees to it, that the subsectors do not
squable amongst themselves, and insures that all laws are applied in an
even handed manner. This is the layer that supercedes layer B. This is
the layer that can mobilize other subsectors or sectors against one sector
that is misbehaving and breaking the rules. This is also, generally
speaking, the layer with the least speed of reaction to events within the
body of stars. As such, it tends to be a conservative type organization.
It is also one that responds directly to the needs of the wealthy. Layer B
also reacts to the needs of the wealthy, but it is in Layer C that the
wealthy influence the rest of the body of civilization.
C watches over B, B in turn watches over A and it makes certain that the
mundane administrative tasks from A don't reach up to C unless it is truely
outside the scope of... "THE BOOK" or the rules on how things are done.
My point is, that it doesn't seem to make a difference whether the head
of Layer C is a president, a Council, a Senate, or an Emperor. All that is
required is that the layer C controls Layer B, which in turn controls Layer A.
As for communications lag? Let me ask you all this:
What is the shortest amount of time it takes for a message to travel from
the Capital of the Imperium to the Spinward Marches? Does anyone believe
that the "canon" time of communications can be shaved by up to 25% without
even really trying? Does anyone believe that it can be done in 50% of the
stated time assuming that J-4 ships are used along with Deep Space depots?
I for one, believe after looking at the Spinward Marches map, and seeing
too many 1 parsec interval destination on an X-boat route, that it can be
done much faster than canon seems to imply is the norm.
I don't really see communications as being an issue in the realm of
government. If it is too slow in a "democratic" society, I figure it is
likely to be too slow in *any* government. All in all, I see it primarily
as an issue of relative autonomy. Too much micromanagement by the top
layer, along with communications delay - and you have a recipe for disaster
for any kind of organization - be it military, financial, or governmental.
Manage in layers or tiers, and you get a structure that is not too
dissimilar to the chain of command for just about any organization in
existance today... (or so my simple mind seems to think).
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:00:03 -0000
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: What could go wrong?
Well my players always knew they had a serious problem when the ships
microwave oven broke down. Then there was the perennial favourite the
flickering fluoro (or similar) which no amount of tinkering with either the
light or the wiring seemed to be able to fix.
Then for the really sadistic undiagnosed metal fatigue beneath the mounting
holding an essential piece of equipment in place (i.e. the power plant,
maneuver drive etc.)
Then there is the problem of the stuck door on the fuel scoop intake. Then
don't forget the atmosphere (no not the life support), but creaking doors,
sounds of groaning metal every time the ship accelerates, changes vector
etc.
Then how about power spikes every time the jump drive is activated, perhaps
not enough for a mis-jump, but certainly enough to cause concern.
Or their is the hairline crack in a bulk head or hull (I'd use and interior
one) mention things such as faulty alloy or crystal iron delaminating.
Enjoy
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:14:13 +0200 (EET)
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Paul_K=FCnnap?= <kuennap@mappi.helsinki.fi>
Subject: Copyright
> Gentlemen,
> One of the posts in the Imperial legal frameworks thread mentioned
> copyright laws, specifically the fact that most nations ignore US statutes
> in that area.
> Could one of the TML Legal Dream Team address this please? What is
> wrong about the US take on copyright protections that the rest of the world
> simply ignores them? Or is the idea that US copyright law is "incorrect"
> just a handy fig leaf to explain away widespread software, video, music,
> and any other type of media piracy?
Most of the time your explanation for ignoring is correct, still most of the
world have similar copyright law to US (there is a difference regarding moral
rights between the European understanding and US understanding). There is a
real problem with the copyright law as well.
The principles of copyright law was developed in Europe in the age when
copyright problems primarily dealt with people printing books without paying
the authors. Originally US was against any such thing, but when piracy began to
hamper US movie industry this changed. With the advent of computer age the same
copyright was applied to software as for anything else without much thought.
Originally it was thought that computers are so marginal phenomen that it
requires no special treatment.
As is evident today copyright law requires a complete overhaul especially as
related to computer software. Rules designed for printed books that have to
exist physically just don't work with electronic media. Unfortunately any
attempt to rethink the rules are objected fiercely by established software
companies who think its a threat to their position.
I don't actually have the answer for how copyright issues should be resolved,
but I'm pretty certain 3i universe would have very different copyright law.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 03:42:42 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright
Paul Künnap wrote:
> The principles of copyright law was developed in Europe in the age when
> copyright problems primarily dealt with people printing books without paying
> the authors. Originally US was against any such thing, but when piracy began to
> hamper US movie industry this changed.
I think the existance of US copyright law prior to the invention of
movies counters your view pretty well.
Copyright laws came about when printing and publishing costs
got so low that it was cheaper to copy what someone else wrote
and put a new title on it, than to pay anyone to write something
new. Essentially, industrial revolution era.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:18:10 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Copyright Laws
Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote :
> As they should US laws are very relevant in other countries.
But only because the US likes to enforce it's laws overseas by sending armed
men and helicopters over into soveriegn countries to drag non-US citizens
back to the US to stand trial under US law, in clear breach of the soverign
rights of the countries and citizens involved.
Or bully other governments into voluntarily handing over their own citizens
for breaking US law, even though what they did was not illegal in their home
country, and they had never ever been in the US, or carried out that act on
US soil.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 04:10:36 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
There are just oodles of story plots and adventure hooks in such a system.
Ben
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <hal@buffnet.net>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 5:25 AM
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
> >Due to travel times involved a representative's term lasts untill
> >his/her/it's replacement arrives. Special elections to replace
> >reps who have left office early due to death, resignation,
> >or election to higher parliaments will be held with the next
> >regular election. leaving some seats open for a year or so.
>
> In an effort to forestall such an event happening, as a lot of legislation
> could be passed in that year, a delegation is sent, not just a
> representative. Said Delegation has the Senator plus his runner up. By
> law, said runner up may not be in the same vicinity as the Representative.
> Assassination aside, this should help keep a planet represented at all times.
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:10:40 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A. Bertram Chandler was Re: Civility and Politeness
on 17/2/01 12:47 pm, Charles Nicholas Walker at cnw@globalnet.co.uk wrote:
> Where abouts are you in the UK Gordon? I have about 10 of his books and if
> you are near we could lend each other ones we have not read! here are the
> titles I have
I'm in Portsmouth, but only for another week. On Thursday, the movers are
coming to pack up all my stuff and ship it to America. So thanks for the
offer, but its a bit impractical just now.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:47:22 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: fencing
I prefer a well trained professional army for the close in work. For longer
ranged work a Navy and Air Force can also be handy.
Ben
'Ah well, that's what young men are for..'
Adolph Hitler upon reading a particularly
heavy casualty list.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 10:41 PM
Subject: Re: fencing
>
>
> On 20 Feb 2001, at 11:39, Pat Connaughton wrote:
>
> > Always prefered the cutlass or a modified gladius myself,
> > better for close in work.
>
> I always preferred an M16 - good from 0 to 400 metres. For longer ranged work
a
> LSW is nice, they're good from 5 to 600 metres. :)
>
>
> --
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:08:28 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
And with that system you could play 'Ride of the Valkyries' during those tricky
planetary assaults.
Ben
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
> In mail you write:
>
> > <Snip>
> Evil thought of the week.
>
> There's a gizmo that's been kicking around as a lab prototype for
> around 20 years now. By using MHD effects, it's possible to make a
> flame act as a speaker.
>
> I'd previously suggested using rocket engines as the source of the
> "flame". But it occurs to me that a bad like Disaster area might be
> using ship-mounted plasma weapons, or maybe HEPlaR drives as speakers.
>
> Picture a band that doesn't use speaker towers, instead, they have
> these "things" the size of a small ship, that have to be sited on
> reinforced concrete pads and produce sound from jets of blinding flame
> half a kilometer long. At power levels that require a 1 km safety zone
> around them.
>
> They don't "set up" the sound system, they *land* them. :-)
>
> -------------------
> Notice to Spacefarers 1105-075
>
> Antares Down will be closed to traffic from 18:00 to 25:00 local time
> on 1105-100 due to a concert by Near-C. Antares STC will broadcast
> notices of exclusion zones for the bands sound checks during the week
> preceeding this date.
> -------------------
>
> Hey, where else are they going to find enough open space with
> facilities "hardened" against that sort of noise levels?
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
>
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3720
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3721
Date: | 2/21/01 9:37:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 21 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3721
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: What could go wrong?
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Space as it should have been...
Re: Shrieker World
Re: Copyright Laws
Re: Democracy Now!
RE: Copyright Laws
Re: Copyright Laws
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Democracy Now!
re: Nobles and the Imperium
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: What could go wrong?
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: A Lucky Find?
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Don't run...
Re: Don't run...
Re: fencing
Re: fencing
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:19:06 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: What could go wrong?
hal@buffnet.net writes:
>ideas. What else can go wrong that is annoying - potentially alarming,
>even demoralizing, yet not deadly enough to make a ship become rated as
>"unsafe".
A software glitch in the sensor system means that when the ship
attempts to query another vessel's transponder, it also brings the
fire control ladar on-line and locks up the target vessel...
Problems in the environmental controls result in a high level of
condensation in the hold. This can spoil delicate cargoes, might
result in the ship running low on drinking water, and gives the ship
that evocative "Nostromo" atmosphere...
Linked to that idea - perhaps some form of vermin has made its home on
board the ship? Maybe even something that has a vacuum-resistant
dormant form (its eggs?) to prevent the players coming up with the
obvious solution to their problem.
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:19:02 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
"Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com> writes:
>There's really only one example of noblesse oblige that worked reasonably
>well in world history, the British one from about 1700-1900. And anyone who
>thinks there weren't *numerous* exceptions for the benefit of the upper
>class even in that case needs to take a close look at the Corn Laws again.
The French must also have had at least some idea of the concept,
otherwise it would be expressed as "nobility obliges" rather than
"noblesse oblige"...
>
>People are people, king or cat, and a large fraction of them wil always look
>out for number one.
I've never suggested otherwise. However, it's one thing to be a noble
enjoying the benefits of a society where the deck's stacked in your
favour. It's quite another to engage in blatant corruption and
favouritism, on the level of some of the ideas in this thread ("Nice
estate you've ...er... I mean I've got here"). That's the kind of
thing that *can* be limited by social pressure, if the key influencers
and power-mongers in society strongly disapprove of such behaviour.
Of course, you can still do whatever you like _as long as you don't
get caught_ . But that makes things more interesting for gamers.
Uncovering evidence that Marquis X is taking kickbacks from SuSAG and
bringing this to the attention of the Duke makes for a good adventure
scenario - but this wouldn't work if the Duke was likely to shrug his
shoulders and say "So what? I'm on LSP's payroll myself"...
Naturally, in this vision of Imperial law the Marquis may not face a
formal trial for corruption. It wouldn't be a police matter (so, even
more scope for PCs' "informal" involvement). But, he'd be in
disgrace, his judgement would be called into question by his feudal
superiors, he'd lose all chances of preferment in the Imperial
service, ex-friends would cut him dead in the street (1), his family
would never get invited to parties again, and in the end he may find
himself driven into taking that pearl-handled revolver into the
billiard room...
Stephen
(1) That's "Cut him dead" in the sense of "Totally ignore his presence
when he goes over to say hello" rather than "Draw a Marine cutlass and
chop his head off."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:31:28 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
>>"Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com> writes:
>>There's really only one example of noblesse oblige that worked reasonably
>>well in world history, the British one from about 1700-
>>1900.
>
>The French must also have had at least some idea of the concept,
>otherwise it would be expressed as "nobility obliges" rather than
>"noblesse oblige"...
Idea, sure. Did it work? I think it's fair to say "no". Corruption and
venality were the bywords of ancien regime France, hence the French
Revolution.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:52:41 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Space as it should have been...
This talk of Senator Proxmire reminds of the the Niven classic short story,
"The Return of William Proxmire."
The Admiral had the right idea....
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ Opinions Mine!
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:46:15 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Shrieker World
on 21/2/01 12:48 am, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> Did the gravity of the world inhabited by the Shriekers in District 268 ever
> make it into official print? I don't have the relevant adventure available
> right now . . .
Not other than 'low'. As in: "The major effects on the evolution of local
life forms have been the world's very thin atmosphere and its low gravity".
Do you want some OCR scans of the world and shrieker info? Were the pictures
of any use?
Gordon.
PS: You should be able to get office dispensation to buy copies of the FFE
books in your line of work, shouldn't you? All I've ever managed is dull
technical manuals, but your work bookshelf could be interesting to stock. ;)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:00:34 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright Laws
My statement should have read "irrelevant".
:-)
bloo
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:
> Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote :
>
> > As they should US laws are very relevant in other countries.
>
> But only because the US likes to enforce it's laws overseas
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:01:59 -0500
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
>The Roman Empire is an example of how a Republic couldn't maintain a
democracy over the stresses. Though, IIRC, Rome did not try and
extend democracy to all its territories, so the size of the area that
they tried to keep the Republic for was smaller than the size of
empire.<
In what way was Rome a Democracy?
Even the Republic was an oligarchy and not a republic. Further, the increase
in size after the Punic Wars is directly responsible for its conversion from
Oligarchy to Dictatorship. Lastly, with the road system they had travel
times were significantly lower than you might think. The legions that
responded to the Zealot Revolt made it to Jerusalem from Rome in a few
months. You would have trouble transporting two divisions that quickly these
days.
Maybe the concepts behind a feodality should be examined and stressed more
first.
Sam
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:31:00 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: RE: Copyright Laws
...
>Or bully other governments into voluntarily handing over their own citizens
>for breaking US law, even though what they did was not illegal in their home
>country, and they had never ever been in the US, or carried out that act on
>US soil.
Luckily the ObTravs are obvious :)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:43:56 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright Laws
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
"My statement should have read "irrelevant"."
"Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote :"
"As they should US laws are very relevant in other countries."
Bloo,
How very odd. I originally read it AS "irrelevant", but there it is
quite clearly spelled "relevant".
Perception is reality.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:00:21 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
> Federal Republic! Ugh!!!!!
>
> Constitutional Monarchy... Now THAT'S the way to go!
> Why a Constitutional Monarchy?
> Five reasons;
> 1. Easier transition
> 2. People need a symbol which can transcend planetary/regional
> patriotism
[snip]
I suspect that given time, most constitutional monarchies will evolve into
parlimentary or federal repulics as the monarch becomes more and more
irrelavent. The whole idea that lineage denotes superiority is archaic
(unless we are talking eugenics here). And I, for one, find it ridiculous
that anyone should receive special treatment based on their 'caste'.
Biologically, we are all the same, after all.
I certainly wouldn't suggest taking the opposite track (pure democracy)
however. My personal favorite synonym for democracy is 'mob rule'.
And the idea that a republic is not a fertile ground for adventuring just
shows a lack of imagination. I'm currently running a game in the Rim (My
Solomani have pretty much eliminated the archaic concept of class) where the
political factions are counted by the score. Politics, intrigue and all
without a single noble.
I suspect the idea of an Imperial setting for Travelller has more to do with
it's use in science fiction novels and the American fascination with
nobility (since we don't have any). But given the way things are going these
days, I'd say that a corporate Imperium is much more likely.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:03:17 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
> All this take of legal systems and constitutions
> leads me back to a setting-shaking event I want
> to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it myself:
>
> A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.
> With a goal to create a Federal Republic type
> system. Maybe it's Yanks in Space but so what!
> There are ways to do it without following the
> American model.
I'm with you, bloo. But it would require some event to make the people feel
they had nothing to lose by rebelling (or perhaps just a very bad emperor).
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:04:06 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: re: Nobles and the Imperium
On 20 Feb 2001, at 15:40, Glenn Goffin wrote:
> Thanks for your comments, Rob. I don't think that the RoM Terrans would
> have any difficulty in making themselves into an hereditary nobility. The
> Ziru Sirka, remember, had a hereditary noble class, so the environment in
> which the Terran and later Rule of Man military governors found themselves
> already contained a working model. Also, Terrans will still have many
> remants of hereditary nobility (and I'm not talking about Dubya) by the
I'm sorry, I don't know Dubya. Can you explain, please?
> time of the conquest. For example, some of the major powers have monarchs
> who trace their lineage back hundreds, if not thousands, of years; England
> and Japan come immediately to mind.
True, true. Good point.
> The situation in the Rule of Man and Long Night eras is notdissimilar
> from Europe in the Dark Ages (not unintentionally, I would think). The
Ah, right, a comparison I'd forgotten about too. And the Roman Empire
was considered by Middle Age people to have been great technologically
and in other areas, but it wasn't TL14+ :) [1]
(There was some occurance in the Traveller timeline that corresponded
to 476AD - the classically pronounced time of death for the Roman
Empire - I forget what it was, but that always caught my attention.)
> Roman Empire had placed military governors to rule over the various
> barbarians from Spain to Britain to Germany to Palestine. As Rome
In those areas not latinized (or to a lesser degree), IIRC, as there
was a fair amount of latinizing in southern and central Gaul,
Narbonensis, southern Spain.
> collapsed, many military governors continued to manage defense and
> economic relations. Their powers had been established by law and the
> Roman army. As Rome fell, they kept their positions out of custom -- and
> political astuteness. By the end of the Middle Ages, custom became law as
> stronger central governments were formed with kings at the head of larger
> regions, and the kings recognized the rights of the nobility.
I read a very interesting book about the "dark ages" (I'll have to
dig out the title) that said that the invading Germanic tribes
(possibly due to a cascading wave of pressure from as far away as
Mongolia - Huns and all that) *wanted* the benefits of Roman society.
Well, many did anyway, especially after years on the move and raiding
civilized areas, they and their leaders (of some tribes I guess,
Marcomanni come to mind) were tired and wanted to settle down. As
Roman presence in the region dimished, they moved in and were able to
take over, but without disturbing the society itself that much,
assuming the roles if not titles of the vacating Roman administration
(and possibly military governors in those areas).
It went on to say that in order to defend *themselves* from further
"barbarians" they collected what forces they could around the best
tactical and strategic leaders. These warrior leaders that could defend
and provide best for their people attracted followers - other warriors,
who offered their loyalty and expected the leader to provide them some
benefits (roof, food, battle glory, I think). The basic agricultural
industry in the region changed little, only being ruled by different
masters. Even in the more developed areas the merchants and tradesmen
and their way of life changed not terribly from the Roman rule.
As time passed the warrior leaders and their retinue became more
mature, settled down and thus established the beginnings of the feudal
foundations of Europe. Well, that's what the author said (which I've
probably botched in summarizing), and it seemed a scholarly work, and
sounds good to me and I found it very thought-provoking (for me as an
amateur history buff).
I can see the comparison with the Rule of Man - terrans take over,
accept the roles the Vilani 'nobility' had, used their own names for
the roles linking back to ancient European and Oriental traditions,
and had a power base to claim noble status. That kind of sounds like
it started out as a top-down authority (the conquering Terran
Confederation) that mutated into a nobility that had a built in power
base (whatever the power base of the previous vilani nobility was) that
could then be seen as a bottom-up nobility. (As Alan described the
types of nobility a couple of posts ago.)
I think my problem has been probably my "yankee-ness" - imagining US-
type people being sent to govern a Vilani planet and how would they
react to having the native Vilani practically forcing the position of
nobility on them (in some/all cases?). My 20th/21st century yankee
sensibilities would think they'd try to establish some kind of, oh,
what is it, humansitic rule? Democracy, et al. Kind of like what
we're told goes on when the U.S. helps out poorer nations.
But then, that ignores the whole Interstellar War era and it's
effects on humanity and the U.S. - the coming together of nations to
fight the 'aliens', generations of war, diaspora.
Hmm - what are some Oriental nobility titles, and would they (or
other styles of nobility) have been put in place in various regions of
the conquered ZS?
Rob D.
[1] Attempted humor.
- --
Rob
Nogginavigation: Ability of parents to guide kids by the tops of their heads.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:05:53 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
> A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.
> With a goal to create a Federal Republic type
> system. Maybe it's Yanks in Space but so what!
> There are ways to do it without following the
> American model.
>
The thought occurs: This could be really nasty. Monarchist vs.
republicans. Nothing quite as bloody as a civil war.
And how would the surrounding empires react. I can easily see the Solomani
supporting the democrats, what about the others?
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:06:30 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: What could go wrong?
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
>hal@buffnet.net writes:
"...ideas. What else can go wrong that is annoying - potentially
alarming, even demoralizing, yet not deadly enough to make a ship become
rated as "unsafe"...."
Hal,
I always enjoyed inflicting plumbing disasters on my PCs and not just
because I have a "potty" mouth. How about the fresher attached to the
bridge being on the "fritz" forcing those on watch to roll against their
endurance or require a relief?
Landing struts are nice nagging problems too. Your PCs might have to
EVA for a quick look at one registering a fault light prior to landing.
Wouldn't want it to fail and collapse whiel on the ground, would you?
Problems with the gravitic "net" in the ship are fun too. Want to make
your PCs sweat? Well then don't allow them to "null" the hold and float out
the cargo containers. The inability to "tune" gravity in each stateroom
might make passengers testy.
Habitabilty is always a good one. MOst PCs loathe passengers, but need
them to make ends meet. Throw all sorts of stateroom problems at them;
heating, cooling, light levels, entertainment equipment. Instead making the
passenger just someone who can't be pleased, give them real complaints. The
PCs might find a judgement against them for the cost of a high passage, plus
damages, the next time they visit that world.
Minor engineering slip-ups can be fun also. The Challenge had a
wonderful article titled "The Wrong Way Valve" that sparked all sorts of
ideas for me. Have an engineeering PC roll against you for "procedural
compliance" during involved and lengthy operations; wilderness refueling,
cold starts of the "bottle", scrams and recovery from scrams. If you both
pass, no problems. If he passes but you fail, inflict some minor hiccup.
If he fails, he has to begin again.
For example, T:NE space combat introduced a damage result I liked very
much, the reset. If the PC fails his rolls, inflict a reset on the
equipment in question.
My PCs rarely had a fully functional ship, except after their annual
overhaul, and then not for too long. I wouldn't let them fill those long
empty hours in jump with "study" or "personal development" just so they
could pad their skills. It was preventive and actual maintenance all the
way. Keep 'em busy and it's less work for you.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:10:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
Doug C. writes:
> The Republican style of government historically tends toward centralism,
> or fragmentation. The alternatives are confederacy, or parliamentary
> federalism (more centralized than a confederacy, less than a republican
> model
The fuedal style of government also historically tends towards centralism or
fragmentation. In fact, I suspect that statement is generally true of all
forms of government.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:55:10
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?
At 09:05 PM 2/20/2001 +0100, Jens wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
>> TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
>> Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
>> Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.
>
>It's not working. I want my money/soul/whatever back.
Too late!! You are mine for eternity! Mwahahahaha!! Check out page 49 of
Ground Forces to see Jens' fate...
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
- Xaonon, in alt.atheism
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 08:58:03
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
> Heck, even the old Spooky is fun for PCs
I've always pictured the design team meeting for the AC-47..
"OK, and back here is the where the 105 goes."
"The what?"
"The 105mm howitzer. Useful thing in this sort of role."
"You want to mount *side firing field artillery* in an aircraft?!"
"Just a little one..."
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies. On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets.
- Rich Clancey
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:10:49
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Don't run...
At 01:15 PM 2/20/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>This is more commonly a line used by snipers (predominantly USMC, since
>they are far superior to the other branches of service, right Doug?)
For certain purposes.. for example, if you need a gate guarded, the Marines
are great! 200+ years and not a *single* gate stolen! :)
Seriously, I did my sniper training at the USMC school (this was in the
days when the Army did all the Airborne training, the Marines handled
sniper training, the Navy diving, etc..) and have a profound respect for
the Corps.
>Other quotes include "Reach out and touch someone" and "Sniper: the next
>best thing to being there."
On the wall of the Scout/Sniper School at Quantico (circa 1985, it has
moved since then IIRC) is the following:
"They couldn't hit an elephant from this dist-" Union General John
Sedgwick as he was shot dead by a Confederate sniper at Spotsylvania
On that note, from the US Army Ranger School Mountain Phase. This is on a
tombstone just outside the orderly room.
"Here lie the bones
Of Ranger Jones
A graduate of this institution
He died last night
In his first fire-fight
Using the school solution
BE FLEXIBLE!"
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
Embrace Fascism. The uniforms look cool
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:14:05
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Don't run...
At 03:22 PM 2/20/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>It should be noted that army snipers in Viet Nam actually racked up a larger
>number of kills, on average, per sniper.
The army sniper were used differently. A matter of tactics, really. Also,
the army shooters worked a more "target-rich" envitonment.
>Also, unlike a sniper, an AC130 spectre is good for a grid square.
Yes, but I can stop an entire regiment with one bullet at the right time.
Properly used, snipers are an extremely effective method of disrupting
enemy operations.
>Personally, I like the idea of an airborn 105mm cannon.
See my other post on the topic. :)
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Some days, you just can't get rid of a bomb!"
-Adam West, as Batman
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:18:20
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: fencing
At 03:01 PM 2/20/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>Ah, yes. Reminds me of the bad ol' days at MCRD. The DI is demonstrating
>the proper thrust/recover for bayonet work.
>
>DI: "In the event that your bayonet becomes lodged in the body of
> your opponent, a simple discharge of your weapon is usually
> sufficient to dislodge the blade."
>
>Recruit: "Ah, Gunnery Sgt. If I'm still capable of discharging my weapon,
> there ain't gonna *BE* no bayonet combat!!"
>
>The rest of the class went downhill from there.
LOL! I got in trouble during bayonet training for wondering aloud about
the odds of everybody running out of ammo at the same time, leading to a
bayonet charge.
I didn't know I could do that many push ups with a M-16A1 balanced on the
back of my hands.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:21:38
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: fencing
At 03:39 PM 2/20/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>When I went through Infantry OSUT (basic and AIT) at Ft Benning in 1980,
>they didn't even have bayonet training.
We had it in 1984, but everybody realized it was more for the "fighting
spirit" thing than any actual combat use.
The bayonet course we ran is still one of thise things that I remember with
loathing. Our qualification day came during a three day downpour, the
remnants of a hurrican that was sweeping over Georgia. I have never been
so cold, wet and miserable in my life.
At least until I went to Korea on TeamSpirit 86.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:30:27 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
A rebellion in a setting the size of the Imperium would rapidly become factionalized, with protracted conflict between competing factions breaking down the Imperium's infrastructure. If anyone released a doomsday weapon, things would get really nasty.
I've just had the strangest feeling of deja vu...
- - Rob.
On Wednesday, February 21, 2001, at 05:03 PM, Tod Glenn wrote:
> > All this take of legal systems and constitutions
> > leads me back to a setting-shaking event I want
> > to happen in the OTU - I'm too lazy to do it myself:
> >
> > A Democratic Revolution in the Third Imperium.
- --
JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/
Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,
Edition en Anglais.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:34:49 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
On 21 Feb 2001, at 2:36, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> You're forgettin' a damned important point, young fellah - we're
> gentlemen. And ladies, of course. We give our word of honour to try
> each case fairly, accordin' to the Law. Deliberately makin' a false
> decision is just Not Done. Noblesse oblige and all that, you know?
> Dash it all, you'd think we were moneygrubbing middle class oiks, not
> nobles sworn to the service of His Imperial Majesty.
>
> Of course, if a chap feels he's just too closely involved with a case
> to be impartial, he can always declare a conflict of interest and
> disqualify himself. After all, appearances are important. Justice
> must be *seen* to be done, what?
> </IC>
:)
>
> >nobles. Who polices the police?
>
> Social pressure...
So the media is important, (the 'fifth column' is it?), at least
in creating public opinion. But what could legally or realistically
be done if a noble does not disqualify himself in a conflict of
interest situation (or whatever reason, bad behavior)? The public
opinion gets so bad that the noble's superiors are forced to act?
(I assume some kind of gentlemanly meeting at first, up to removal
of various support from above if they continue their intransigent
actions, to removal (can they void a patent of nobility?) with or
possibly without the Emperor's approval.
Yes, I suppose that works as a check-and-balance system. So control
of the media is also important - would nobles be allowed to own shares
of media corporations?
Rob D.
- --
Rob
Contrary to popular belief, Unix is user friendly.
It just happens to be selective about who it makes friends with.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3721
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
Date: | 2/21/01 12:19:45 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 21 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3722
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Don't run...
Re: fencing
re: Nobles and the Imperium
Re: fencing
Re: Don't run...
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: fencing
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
re: Nobles and the Imperium
Hey CF...
RE: Democracy Now!
Fractal Terrain Maps
Re: Copyright Laws
Re: What could go wrong?
RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
RE: What could go wrong?
RE: Democracy Now!
Re: fencing
RE: What could go wrong?
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:50:37 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Don't run...
> The army sniper were used differently. A matter of tactics, really.
Also,
> the army shooters worked a more "target-rich" envitonment.
Yes, I know. Some have suggested that the lack of any army sniper tales a la
Carlos Hathcock is that the army technique seems so unfair. Frequently an
army sniper, equiped with a M21 with STANO sight and sionics supressor was
dropped, with his team, into a target rich environment just as night fell.
He would spend the evening 'potting' unsuspecting enemy troops at relatively
(for a snip) short range. Just at dawn, he and his team would be
helicopered out. Very effective, but hardly seems fair.
I think John Plaster racked up around 500 kills
>
> >Also, unlike a sniper, an AC130 spectre is good for a grid square.
>
> Yes, but I can stop an entire regiment with one bullet at the right time.
> Properly used, snipers are an extremely effective method of disrupting
> enemy operations.
You are preaching to the converted. Snipers are very cost effective.
>
> >Personally, I like the idea of an airborn 105mm cannon.
>
> See my other post on the topic. :)
BTW, I have a great photo of the inside of an AC-130 during firing. The
crew chief is shoveling empty brass with a coal shovel.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:52:14 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: fencing
> The bayonet course we ran is still one of thise things that I remember
with
> loathing. Our qualification day came during a three day downpour, the
> remnants of a hurrican that was sweeping over Georgia. I have never been
> so cold, wet and miserable in my life.
Lucky dog. I was at Harmony church in the summer of 1980. The hottest
summer in recorded history. To this day, I fear the South.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 09:53:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Nobles and the Imperium
- --- Rob Davenport <rgd@ohio.voyager.net> wrote:
> On 20 Feb 2001, at 15:40, Glenn Goffin wrote:
>> also, Terrans will still have many remants of hereditary nobility (and
>> I'm not talking about Dubya)
> I'm sorry, I don't know Dubya. Can you explain, please?
President George W. Bush is often called "Dubya", which is Texan for his
middle initial, "Double-you". He is the son of George Bush, who was
president before Bill Clinton. The Kennedy family is another example of
hereditary membership in the ruling class in modern times.
> I think my problem has been probably my "yankee-ness" - imagining US-
> type people being sent to govern a Vilani planet and how would they
> react to having the native Vilani practically forcing the position of
> nobility on them (in some/all cases?). My 20th/21st century yankee
> sensibilities would think they'd try to establish some kind of, oh,
> what is it, humansitic rule? Democracy, et al. Kind of like what
> we're told goes on when the U.S. helps out poorer nations.
Communications technology is very large factor here. Yankees going
anywhere to take over since the late 1800s have almost never been farther
than a telegraph message from the home office. (Since the middle of the
last century, telephone and radio could put the home office right into the
yankee conqueror's ears.) It's impossible to get somewhere where one
would be out of communication with the home office and culture for years,
let alone generations. That's a very different situation than both the
post Interstellar War era and post Pax Romanica era.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:02:24 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: fencing
Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
> "Hence the name "left hand", as opposed to main droite or "right hand"
>
> "Hm, do lefthanded fencers use main drôite?"
>
>
> Shame on you! What a very sinister idea!
Please no need to be gauche about it!
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:21:50 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Don't run...
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
"Yes, but I can stop an entire regiment with one bullet at the right
time."
Mr. Berry,
Or take a city. Or destroy a civlization.
I read Runciman's "Fall Of Constantinople" a few months ago and was
immediately taken by how the Ottoman's last ditch attack on the city
succeeded. An Italian mercenary captain, whose name escapes me, and his
company had been providing an extraordinary defense along a certain portion
of the city's land wall. Then the captain was wounded.
A few of his men picked him up to move him to safety. Others saw them
"retreating" and did so themselves, and more others saw that and followed.
Within minutes an entire section of wall had been abandoned and the
Ottoman's were in the city.
One bullet, one man, and Byzantium fell.
Of course, the Byzantine Empire had been living on borrowed time since
Manzikert, and if it hadn't happened then it would have in another decade or
generation. The Ottomans already surrounded what was left of Byzantine
territory and occupied most of the Balkans already. But, it still makes you
think.
The Pope and Italian city states had aleady put aside their squabbles
and dispatched reinforcements. Other European powers were beginning to see
that containment of the Ottomans might be a Good Idea(tm).
Might the nascent Western powers have propped up their "sick man" of
Europe like the British and French would do the Ottomans centuries later?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:39:14 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
"So the media is important, (the 'fifth column' is it?"
"So control of the media is also important - would nobles be allowed to
own shares of media corporations?"
Rob,
The phrase I believe you're looking for is "fourth estate". It refers
to the three body "Estate General" of France's ancien regime.
Nobles, clergy, and commons, made up the three estates. The newly invented
press called themselves the "fourth estate".
Fifth column dates from either the Spanish Civil War, or maybe far
earlier. It refers to a body of men inside your military objective who will
rise in rebellion when your forces approach. Hmmm, that's not a bad
description of the press after all!
Use of the press as a check and balance will depend on more than just
who owns it or how many outlets they can control. The press should have the
same adversarial relationship with each other that they do with the rest of
us. Sadly, the press has never shown this trait to either exist or be a
lasting one. They too have the same "old boy" networks that they loudly
decry in others. The number of stories either squashed or ignored each year
is disheartening.
Case in point. Just a few years ago, an ABC news magazine worked on
and planned to broadcast a story about safety concerns at Disney theme
parks. Disney owns ABC and squashed the story. You would think that NBC,
CBS, CNN, Fox, et. al. would jump on this story like wolves on a snowbound
elk, but you'd be wrong. ABC and Disney got away scot free, with just a few
minor stories, because the press do not go after their own.
Whisper "coverup" in DC or a corporate meeting and they'll be on you
like hounds from hell. Whisper the same phrase inside their own newsrooms
and studios and all you'll get is an knowing wink and a pat on the back.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:51:25 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: fencing
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
"Hence the name "left hand", as opposed to main droite or "right hand"
"Hm, do lefthanded fencers use main drôite?"
"Shame on you! What a very sinister idea!"
"Please, no need to be gauche about it!"
Mr. Johnson,
Touche, sir! And as our little contremps was to the first touch, may I
be among the first to congratulate you?
Larsen < flourishes a lage floppy hat and bows deeply >
P.S. Does anyone else remeber the scene in the 70's "Three Musketeers" in
which the evil Christopher Lee is playing some sort of game with balls in an
inn's courtyard? There are these lifesize wooden cutouts of noble ladies
standing some distance from him while he bowls underhand at them. It's some
sort of contemptuous bocce.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:27:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
In mail you write:
>>And there may be a significant amount of actual history that
>>would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion. For
>>example, the United States of America until the invention of
> the telegraph.
>
> In fact the US didn't have the kind of travel times that the Imperium faces.
Oh? Check the travel times between California and the east coast back
before the railroad.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:02:23 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
>The phrase I believe you're looking for is "fourth estate". It refers to
>the three body "Estate General" of France's ancien regime.
>Nobles, clergy, and commons, made up the three estates. The newly invented
>press called themselves the "fourth estate".
Confusingly, both "The Fourth Estate" and "The Fifth Estate" is used to
refer to the press. "The Fifth Estate" just refers to newer news media than
print, however -- radio and television in particular. The Canadian
equivalent of "60 Minutes" is named such just for this reason.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:09:40 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: re: Nobles and the Imperium
On 21 Feb 2001, at 9:53, Glenn Goffin wrote:
> > I'm sorry, I don't know Dubya. Can you explain, please?
>
> President George W. Bush is often called "Dubya", which is Texan for his
> middle initial, "Double-you". He is the son of George Bush, who was
> president before Bill Clinton. The Kennedy family is another example of
> hereditary membership in the ruling class in modern times.
Ah, yes. I was mis-pronouncing it in my head as "Doob-ya", as it
reminded me of the Russian word "doob" (where are those darn cyrillic
keys??) which means "oak-tree" and is a common slang for "stupid" as in
"thick as an oak". I wonder if "doob-ya" means "little oak", or "son
of an oak"... :)
I must admit the fact that his father was president didn't sit well
with me during the election, though I didn't let that affect my vote.
But I still didn't like it for just that reason - it smacked of a
hereditary choice by the Republicans. But then, that obviously appeals
to some people too - pointing to how some would accept if not welcome
an hereditary leader.
> > I think my problem has been probably my "yankee-ness" - imagining US-
> > type people being sent to govern a Vilani planet and how would they
> > react to having the native Vilani practically forcing the position of
> > nobility on them (in some/all cases?). My 20th/21st century yankee
> > sensibilities would think they'd try to establish some kind of, oh,
> > what is it, humansitic rule? Democracy, et al. Kind of like what
> > we're told goes on when the U.S. helps out poorer nations.
>
> Communications technology is very large factor here. Yankees going
> anywhere to take over since the late 1800s have almost never been farther
> than a telegraph message from the home office. (Since the middle of the
> last century, telephone and radio could put the home office right into the
> yankee conqueror's ears.) It's impossible to get somewhere where one
> would be out of communication with the home office and culture for years,
> let alone generations. That's a very different situation than both the
> post Interstellar War era and post Pax Romanica era.
True, I can see the Terran's culture changing as they spend so much
time in contact with the Vilani worlds and with little communication
from home. I now wonder why they didn't almost completely assimilate
and the end product become mostly Vilani in nature if they were so
outnumbered and removed from home?
Rob D.
- --
Rob
'Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.'
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:18:15 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Hey CF...
Am Tuesday, February 20, 2001, las ich folgendes:
> uuuummmmm........could someone explain to me what an ancient Cthulhu
> religion has to do with Traveller?? Isn't that more specific to D&D?? I
> know I'm new to the list so could someone explain it to me?? Please??
It´s just one of those inside jokes that have developed on this list
over time. It may have something to do with someone suggesting playing
Illuminated Traveller, and someone else suggested adding Cthuluh as
well. Just roll with it, it´s fun once you get the hang of it.
Secondly, don´t start annoying people by telling them their posts are
boring. Doing that just creates bad blood. This ML is and has always
been a high volume, 50/50 on and off topic ML.
When something doesn´t interest you, click delete, but don´t tell
everybody about it. I only read about 30% of the List, because I don´t
have the time to read it all, and some points interest me more than
others do.
And finally, please learn to quote. Don´t repost the _entire_ letter,
and leave only the most important part to remind others what you are
replying to. If that´s not possible, summarize the content yourself,
and put it in brackets. O yes, and please use a plain text format so
everybody on the list can read what you write...
Have fun on the TML,
Volker
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:18:10 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
>>>And there may be a significant amount of actual history that
>>>would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion. For
>>>example, the United States of America until the invention of
>> the telegraph.
>>
>> In fact the US didn't have the kind of travel times that the Imperium
faces.
>Oh? Check the travel times between California and the east coast back
>before the railroad.
Clipper ship was around 120 days around cape horn. little faster or little
slower depending on winds. infact the merchant companies would use their
fastest time from new york to San francsico as an advertising scheme.
Hope this helps hasta
Me
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:23:14 -0800
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com>
Subject: Fractal Terrain Maps
There have been a few postings about using the Fractal Terrain
software to generate planetary maps for Traveller.
If any of you have planetary maps already created would you be
willing to share them? I am interested in any maps that were
generated close to canon specs.
Credit will be given for map creation.
Contact me off list if you are willing to participate.
Bill
beast@aracnet.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:22:27 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Copyright Laws
Yea, we took notice of how the other countries did business and followed
suite. The difference is we are powerful enough that no one will declare war
on us unlike our trainers. You know what countries I'm talking about,
they've been doing the same thing for 400 years and now they're mad because
this young brash upstart of a country thinks they can get away with it too.
How dare they......
Oh you don't know what countries I am talking about, try reading someone
else's history books and see what their countries say about your countries
participation in world events.
Everyone is biased my friend. You need to sit down to some nice wine and a
good cheese and mellow out.
Thom Harris - GOFIR - <Gnarly Old Fart In Residence>
Life not only begins at forty, it begins to show.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 5:18 AM
Subject: RE: Copyright Laws
> Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote :
>
> > As they should US laws are very relevant in other countries.
>
> But only because the US likes to enforce it's laws overseas by sending
armed
> men and helicopters over into soveriegn countries to drag non-US citizens
> back to the US to stand trial under US law, in clear breach of the
soverign
> rights of the countries and citizens involved.
>
> Or bully other governments into voluntarily handing over their own
citizens
> for breaking US law, even though what they did was not illegal in their
home
> country, and they had never ever been in the US, or carried out that act
on
> US soil.
>
> Frankie
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:27 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: What could go wrong?
In-Reply-To: <3a95bfed.6339290@post.demon.co.uk>
Greetings dear hearts.
A really strange smell... which can ultimately be traced to half of a
groat sandwich left somewhere deep within cable trunking by a dockyard
matey.
At least one computer programme whose interface module is incompletely
translated from a language that none of the characters knows. (I once had
a CAD package of German origin, which was fine except when you wanted to
answer 'Yes' to a prompt you had to enter 'J' for 'Ja' instead of 'Y'!)
Mysterious knocking noises - again probably some loose object left behind
by a workman. Probably only manifest themselves when a particular
manoeuvre is performed.
A reactor that is always convinced it's overheating however hard you run
the coolant through it.
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:42:09 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
On 21 Feb 2001, at 4:34, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> The Corn Laws were a series of statutes in Britain that forbid the
> importation of corn (what North Americans call wheat) except at certain
> prices and quantities. It was ensure high market prices for home grown
> corn. Seeing as nobles owned most of the farms growing said crop, keeping
> the prices high was in their best interest.
> Eventually, the rise in population, coupled with the labor needs of the
> newly indutrialized cities and towns, meant that Britain could no longer
> feed itself (this occurred roughly between 1820 to 1850). Agitation to
> repeal the Corn Laws was actually greater than agitation to allow more men
> to the vote. After all, wheat is bread, and bread is life.
> Of course the nobility, and the newly wealthy enscounced in their
> rotten borough seats in the Commons, resisted any efforts to reduce the
> tariffs out of self interest.
> A good parallel for us might be the dairy price supports championed by
> Sen. Proxmire. Intially meant to ensure that milk would available for
> children (a cynical motive if there ever was one), they have slowly driven
> smaller dairies out of the marketplace be reducing profit margins.
So the fact that nobles (in some TUs) may adjudicate cases is not
improbable - they get a lists of reasons why they should that sound
great and appeal the masses initially, get the power, and then rule as
they will. (Or have a list of flowery reasons as to why they already
have the power.) They rule mostly fairly, but in cases that affect
them, most likely they rule in their own self-interest - and have a
good cover story as to why, just like any good politician. Just hope
the media (as was mentioned earlier today) has a good enough position
to root out the really bad ones and the nobles above act when necessary
to remove them.
What's the 3I equivalent of "The West Wing"?
Rob D.
- --
Rob
'Men stumble over the truth from time to
time, but most manage to pick themselves
up and run off as if nothing happened.'
- Winston Churchill
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:47:11 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: What could go wrong?
How about On the forward Landing gear one of the "Down and Locked" switches
have an intermittent short in it. so that the light on the instrument panel
blinks off and on erratically. corrective measure would be to replace the
switch.
How about an Air Lock Door Switch that will only open the door when the
switch is toggled "forcefully".
The Septic system on the ship was built with substandard parts. the Holding
tank Nozzles where the hoses connect does not have any small ridges to help
seal. this has caused a small leak if the "fluids" inside the tank. this has
given a certain section of the ship a Distinctive smell. Corrective action
would be to replace holding tank and hoses with proper parts.
A distinctive rattle/squeak in the Air ventilation system. this could be
caused by the bearings on a fan to be going out or a fan blade to be
slightly bent.
When underway the crew finds that there are several spots in the floor where
the gravity is slightly lighter than the rest of the ship. upon inspection
they find that the gravity equipment had been pulled in these areas to make
room for smuggling illegal cargos.
Me
Hasta
- -----Original Message-----
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
[mailto:mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 11:27 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Cc: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: Re: What could go wrong?
In-Reply-To: <3a95bfed.6339290@post.demon.co.uk>
Greetings dear hearts.
A really strange smell... which can ultimately be traced to half of a
groat sandwich left somewhere deep within cable trunking by a dockyard
matey.
At least one computer programme whose interface module is incompletely
translated from a language that none of the characters knows. (I once had
a CAD package of German origin, which was fine except when you wanted to
answer 'Yes' to a prompt you had to enter 'J' for 'Ja' instead of 'Y'!)
Mysterious knocking noises - again probably some loose object left behind
by a workman. Probably only manifest themselves when a particular
manoeuvre is performed.
A reactor that is always convinced it's overheating however hard you run
the coolant through it.
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:50:42
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
At 11:18 AM 2/21/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>Clipper ship was around 120 days around cape horn. little faster or little
>slower depending on winds. infact the merchant companies would use their
>fastest time from new york to San francsico as an advertising scheme.
Speaking of SF's maritime history..
On Telegraph Hill (then known as Signal Hill), there were numerous ship
watchers. They employed children as runners. At the first sighting of a
sail, the kids would be sent towards the docks to warn the various
companies of the approaching vessel.
Y'see, the docks were all private concerns, so early knowledge of a ship's
imminent arrival allowed them to get *their* harbor pilot out first. In
extreme cases, dock owners would send gangs of rowdies to set fire to
competitors as the ship approached!
One devious owner dressed his men as "Chinamen", and had them skulk around
his enemy's pier. This drove business away.
ObTrav: On a world with a privately owned port, the players are caught up
in the war over providing docking berths and ship services. This could be
an adventure in its own right, or as a push to keep the characters
on-planet while their ship is repaired.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 12:56:46 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: fencing
Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote
>
> Mr. Johnson,
> Touche, sir! And as our little contremps was to the first touch,
> may I be among the first to congratulate you?
>
>
> Larsen < flourishes a lage floppy hat and bows deeply >
O, monseiur, 'tis only a light touch, and on a fitting opponent!
> P.S. Does anyone else remeber the scene in the 70's "Three Musketeers"
> in which the evil Christopher Lee is playing some sort of game with
> balls in an inn's courtyard? There are these lifesize wooden cutouts of
> noble ladies standing some distance from him while he bowls underhand at
> them. It's some sort of contemptuous bocce.
Yes, the Richard Lester 3/4 Musketeers are on my 'must get' list when I get around to buying a DVD player.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:17:42 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: RE: What could go wrong?
Hello Folks,
For everyone who responded, I'd like to say "THANKS A MILLION" <grin>. I
guess there is nothing like working in a hot, enclosed, environment where
there are a million things literally, that can go wrong - and having to
chase every niggling detail to see what the problem is.
As it stands now, the group originally asked "Do we spend 10 points per
character on buying the ship, or do we spend 20 points?" The rationale was
"we save points to be better" or "We spend points to have more free time
from maintenance". You already know what they chose. And now, thanks to
you - they will find out what the real meaning of grease monkey is...
After this, I suspect the players are going to wish they had spent more
on the ship...
Hal
Thanks again
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:59:19 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
On 20 Feb 2001, at 23:44, JR Holmes wrote:
<snip>
> The way those dairy price supports were written was to specify higher
> minimum prices for milk produced based upon a formula calculating the
> distance away from the state of Wisconsin, which had the minimum
> supported price. Thus, though Wisconsin farmers were often producing
> milk at a lower price than farmers in Florida, for instance, they had
> to charge the higher price to Florida purchasers, if any could be
> found. This was intended to encourage and support dairy farmers
> outside the state of Wisconsin on the theory that milk, being a
> perishable product, was better produced close to the consumers. The
> price supports did exactly that and promoted a boom in the
> construction of dairy farms as far away from Wisconsin as possible.
> California is now the largest milk producer in the US.
>
> Thus, we now have the situation, as occurred last summer (and several
> others prior to that), where the price for milk in Wisconsin was below
> the cost of production. Unfortunately, the capital costs of a dairy
> farm require a relatively high minimum expenditure to maintain the
> livestock, which greatly penalizes dairy farmers in "bad years".
>
> In recent years, Wisconsin's senators have been trying to _end_ the
> dairy price supports rather than extend them.
This makes me wonder, how could/did the 3I *avoid* getting entangled
in issues such as these? If the 3I is just a unifying police and
protection force, then there would be many cases of injustices,
misfortunes of circumstance, etc. where many people suffer, potentially
needlessly, if the 3I stepped in and helped.
I suppose there'd be some kind of disaster relief of a sort (rescue
those colonists on an atm-0 world after the life support is struck by
an asteroid [assume they can last at least two weeks to get the message
out and rescuers back, ok, bad example, but something like that.]).
And the occasional local insurgency or was on a balkanized world turns
into such a "bad war" that the 3I steps in, rare, but possible.
But wouldn't there have been pressure to help out in less dire
circumstances? Lack of trade regulations causes one world to become
unprofitable and forces most inhabitants to leave at great personal
expense. Appeals to the local, subsector and sector nobles for relief
would have to be numerous. Do they provide token assistance and say
"that's all we have the resources for, you're basically on your own"?
Even in the core worlds? (If so, that would promote population on
"successful worlds" as opposed to the risky or unsuccessful ones, no?)
Rob D.
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Ventis secundis, tene cursum. -- Go with the flow.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3723
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Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 21 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3723
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Democracy Now!
Re: fencing
Re: TGOOs
Spectres in the machine...
Re: Official Traveller Message Boards :-(
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: [TML] Near C- Rocks! (TM)
RE: Democracy Now!
H2 vs H2O
Re: What could go wrong?
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3720
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3707
Re: fencing
Re: fencing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:15:22 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
"ObTrav: On a world with a privately owned port, the players are caught
up in the war over providing docking berths and ship services. This could
be an adventure in its own right, or as a push to keep the characters
on-planet while their ship is repaired."
Mr. Berry,
Fascinating stuff. The entire way of life around seaports, both in the
past and today, provides great OBTrav fodder.
As you mentioned above, the problems that could occur in a private port
are powerful reasons for "GT:Star Port's" assertion that most ports in the
Imperium were run by the 3I.
I especially liked the sidebar dealing with "floaters" in that book.
I'd never even thought of them while detailing the several ports my PCs
visited.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:19:55 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: fencing
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
"Yes, the Richard Lester 3/4 Musketeers are on my 'must get' list
when I get around to buying a DVD player."
Mr. Johnson,
I've read that he hadn't planned on releasing it as two movies but,
after looking at all the footage, realized he'd either have to throw away
priceless stuff or make two films.
This, of course, coud just be another Hollywood legend.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:20:59 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: TGOOs
When I first started reading the list I dl'd it from GEnie and read the
archived info. I still have some of those saved somewhere from 89/90 time
frame. I didn't JOIN the list until sometime in 93/94 when I found it
mentioned on someone's web site. I don't have anything published so I'm out
on a limb there too. I did get a couple of game scenarios run at few
conventions and I got paid for them.....stretching here....
Thom Harris - GOFIR - <Gnarly Old Fart In Residence>
Life not only begins at forty, it begins to show.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: TGOOs
> In mail you write:
>
> > When I subscribed,
> <snip>
> > and I don't recall seeing bangpaths for addresses.
>
> I don't think the list goes back *that* far.
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:33:44 -0000
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
Subject: Spectres in the machine...
I believe the 'Twilight 2000' supplement "Aviation & Nautical Handbook"(? I
think that's what it's called) had stats for the Spectre gunships. I can
try to dig it out if anyone's interested...
Also, <***FLAME WAR ALERT***?
Democracy, bah! I spit on your Democracy. Technical Fuedocracy all the
way!
<grins, ducks and runs into the nearest nuclear shelter...>
sorry all, couldn't resist it!
</***FLAME WAR ALERT***>
Jeff
(a very, VERY bad man!)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:24:36 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Official Traveller Message Boards :-(
Am Tuesday, February 20, 2001, las ich folgendes:
> Far Future Enterprises is pleased to announce the opening of the Official Traveller message boards! We launch these boards as a central location where Traveller fans can get together, meet other
> Traveller players, and interact directly with those involved in bringing you the Traveller universe! This is the place for official news and announcements, answers to your questions, a place where
> you can have a voice in the future of Traveller. Marc Miller, creator of Traveller will be a regular contributor to th
> ese boards, so you can get the scoop directly from the source himself, including information on the fabled Fifth edition of Traveller (aka T5)!
> We look forward to seeing you there!
Hmm, why these boeards? Is the TML not good enough anymore?
Please post any interesting notes on these boards in here as well, as
downloading mails is still cheaper and faster than surfing on
webboards...
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:54:44 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
"But wouldn't there have been pressure to help out in less dire
circumstances? Lack of trade regulations causes one world to become
unprofitable and forces most inhabitants to leave at great personal
expense."
Rob,
I believe that the slow pace of communication, coupled with the normal
waxing and waning cycle of any population's degree of altruism, would tend
to limit the amount of disaster relief between worlds.
The relatively high cost for refugees to flee any disaster, man made or
natural, would insulate adjacent worlds from visable reminders of the
"tragedy" occurrig next door. No weary mob of refugees, their worldly
belongings stuffed in suitcases and valises, trudging across the border and
tugging along their children will be seen.
There would be no real time satellite transmissions of starving
children on Roup beamed to the cities of Regina. Tsunami and earthquake
survivors would have to wait 2+ weeks for any out sytem help to arrive, not
the 1 or 2 day wait for relief supplies the residents of Central America
have come to expect from the US.
(Please note that US relief efforts in Central America is not done out
of the goodness of our hearts, but for rather more pragmatic concerns. We
share a 3000km, undefended land border with several Third World nations.
Anything we do to assuage the people in those nations holds down the level
of illegal immigration. For the European members of the TML, may I suggest
you envision a world in which the Mediterranean has dried up. The EU might
then deal with North Africa much like the US deals with Central America.)
Donor worlds current levels of altruism will have a great effect also.
Look at the "donor fatigue" Third World nations now face when begging for
alms. In the 80's, famine workers had to beat visiting celebrities off with
a stick. Now they can't even get a check from them. This will change as
society's memory of the fraud and waste surrounding the big efforts in the
80's fade. Relief fund raising will become "chic" again (note that actual
relief work is never "chic") and the donations will again roll in. At least
until society becomes revulsed with the waste or bored enough to move onto
to the next "hot" thing.
The upshot? I don't envision a Imperium wide FEMA. Maybe ones
organized by nobility in a subsector or sector basis, but funding will be
tight and by subsrciption. Such agencies will pick and choose their battles
and not repsond to every disaster.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:58:53 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
On 21 Feb 2001, at 18:39, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> The phrase I believe you're looking for is "fourth estate". It refers
> to the three body "Estate General" of France's ancien regime.
> Nobles, clergy, and commons, made up the three estates. The newly invented
> press called themselves the "fourth estate".
<slaps head> d'oh! Of course. Slipped my enfeebled mind.
> Fifth column dates from either the Spanish Civil War, or maybe far
> earlier. It refers to a body of men inside your military objective who will
> rise in rebellion when your forces approach. Hmmm, that's not a bad
> description of the press after all!
:)
> Use of the press as a check and balance will depend on more than just
> who owns it or how many outlets they can control. The press should have the
> same adversarial relationship with each other that they do with the rest of
> us. Sadly, the press has never shown this trait to either exist or be a
> lasting one. They too have the same "old boy" networks that they loudly
> decry in others. The number of stories either squashed or ignored each year
> is disheartening.
> Case in point. Just a few years ago, an ABC news magazine worked on
> and planned to broadcast a story about safety concerns at Disney theme
> parks. Disney owns ABC and squashed the story. You would think that NBC,
> CBS, CNN, Fox, et. al. would jump on this story like wolves on a snowbound
> elk, but you'd be wrong. ABC and Disney got away scot free, with just a few
> minor stories, because the press do not go after their own.
> Whisper "coverup" in DC or a corporate meeting and they'll be on you
> like hounds from hell. Whisper the same phrase inside their own newsrooms
> and studios and all you'll get is an knowing wink and a pat on the back.
...and who watches the watchers, once again, eh?
Add on another layer responsible for monitoring the behavior of the
press? That could go on ad infinitum. Eventually you have to close
the circle, no? (e.g. Executive, Legislative, Judicial branches in the
U.S. and their cross checks [however effective they may or may not be I
can't recall off the top of my head]).
Rob D.
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Re vera, potas bene. -- Say, you sure are drinking a lot.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:58:37 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Near C- Rocks! (TM)
>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:08:28 -0000
>From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
>
>And with that system you could play 'Ride of the Valkyries' during those
>tricky
>planetary assaults.
>
>Ben
>
>'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
> Bill Murrey - Scrooged
>- ----- Original Message -----
>From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 8:11 AM
>Subject: Re: Near C- Rocks! (TM)
And evil overlords wouldn't have to hire orchestras to play their theme
music when they came thundering out of the sky with their Legions of
Terror(tm). Just assigna particularly creative engineer, give him some
extra stock options, and enjoy the sight of the peasants fleeing before the
massed -- and musical -- might of your monolithic military.
(Ack, alliteration, the pain. Maybe just a nobleman from Mongo.)
*now looks for the contract to merchandise the blue-in-front/red-in-back
official "Near-C" hats.* Actually, now that I think about it, that could
be quite a fad, among post-spaceflight adolescents who had an inking of
science. It might, for a time, make for interesting designer fashions,
blue in front gradienting to red in back... 'For the person who is always
moving at near-C through their workday and nightlife!'
Cheers
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:05:09 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
On 21 Feb 2001, at 11:18, William Lane wrote:
> >>>And there may be a significant amount of actual history that
> >>>would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion. For
> >>>example, the United States of America until the invention of
> >> the telegraph.
> >>
> >> In fact the US didn't have the kind of travel times that the Imperium
> faces.
Would a better example than the U.S. be the British Empire at it's
height in the age of sail (uh, *think* *think* *think*, mid- late-
1850s?). How long did it take to sail from Portsmouth to Botany Bay,
for example? (he said, having just finished reading P.O'Brian's
"Desolation Island".) Certainly less than the year or two I believe is
quoted for Regina to Capital, but substantial nonetheless.
Rob D.
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Sic faciunt omnes. -- Everyone is doing it.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:16:28 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
Subject: H2 vs H2O
Hello Everyone:
Sometime in the past (roughly a week ago I think), someone said that you could
just fill up iwth water instead of H2 and this would give you alot more fuel.
After thinking about this for a while I decided to crunch some numbers just for
the heck of it and also to satisfy my curiousity. What follows is back of the
envolpe calculation on H2 vs H2O.
Hydrogen (H2)
Denisty: 76.0 KG / m^3 at 11 degK
(yeah I know it is a solid at this temperature [BP = 14 deg K but it
give better results)
Volume of 1 ton (1000KG, = metric ton not english ton)
1000/76.0 = 13.16 m^3
Water (H2O)
Denisty: 1g / ml [cm^3] at 1 deg C (274 deg K)
Volume of 1 ton H2O
1 m^3 = (100cm)^3 = 1.0 X 10^6 cm (ml)
= 1.0 X 10^6 grams = 1 X 10^3 kg
= 1 metric ton H2O
H2 in H2O
2 hydrogen, 16 Oxygen
2/18 = 1/9
1 Metric Ton of H2O = 1/9 ton H2
Therefore it takes 9 tons of H2O to get 1 ton of H2
Water Storage vs H2 Storage
13.16 / 9 = 1.46 volume conversion
What this means is that a Jump two ship could probably do one jump 2 and one
jump 1 using the same volume of water as H2.
We will not even go through the calculations for other hydron carbons.
John W. Fox
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:04:47 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: What could go wrong?
Hal wrote:
> What else can go wrong that is annoying - potentially alarming,
> even demoralizing, yet not deadly enough to make a ship become rated as
> "unsafe".
I see that lots of people provided good specific quirks; my list of
"higher-level", more pervasive starship quirks is at:
http://www.estarcion.com/kaleja/77quirks.html
- -Russell B
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:31:27 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
On 21 Feb 2001, at 20:54, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Rob,
> I believe that the slow pace of communication, coupled with the normal
> waxing and waning cycle of any population's degree of altruism, would tend
> to limit the amount of disaster relief between worlds.
> The relatively high cost for refugees to flee any disaster, man made or
> natural, would insulate adjacent worlds from visable reminders of the
> "tragedy" occurrig next door. No weary mob of refugees, their worldly
> belongings stuffed in suitcases and valises, trudging across the border and
> tugging along their children will be seen.
> There would be no real time satellite transmissions of starving
> children on Roup beamed to the cities of Regina. Tsunami and earthquake
> survivors would have to wait 2+ weeks for any out sytem help to arrive, not
> the 1 or 2 day wait for relief supplies the residents of Central America
> have come to expect from the US.
So no Sally Struthers wanna-bes pleading for support on the local
media? (Or as far away as they can reach, if the 'plight' is of long
enough duration) I.e., after our discussions of the potential/probable
role of the media in keeping the nobility in check in the judicial
role, I could easily see them also being used to ask for relief aid
from neighboring worlds.
But I suppose the media has fragmented into official channels that deal
with disseminating news to the populace and monitoring the nobility,
and entertainment channels driven by commercial interests; and really
listens to the official channels anymore.
> (Please note that US relief efforts in Central America is not done out
> of the goodness of our hearts, but for rather more pragmatic concerns. We
> share a 3000km, undefended land border with several Third World nations.
> Anything we do to assuage the people in those nations holds down the level
> of illegal immigration. For the European members of the TML, may I suggest
> you envision a world in which the Mediterranean has dried up. The EU might
> then deal with North Africa much like the US deals with Central America.)
> Donor worlds current levels of altruism will have a great effect also.
> Look at the "donor fatigue" Third World nations now face when begging for
> alms. In the 80's, famine workers had to beat visiting celebrities off with
> a stick. Now they can't even get a check from them. This will change as
> society's memory of the fraud and waste surrounding the big efforts in the
> 80's fade. Relief fund raising will become "chic" again (note that actual
> relief work is never "chic") and the donations will again roll in. At least
> until society becomes revulsed with the waste or bored enough to move onto
> to the next "hot" thing.
> The upshot? I don't envision a Imperium wide FEMA. Maybe ones
> organized by nobility in a subsector or sector basis, but funding will be
> tight and by subsrciption. Such agencies will pick and choose their battles
> and not repsond to every disaster.
Oh no, I wasn't envisioning that either. I was thinking of subsector
level forces (ships, personnel, etc.) and maybe some sector level
funding, with perhaps some assistance from the top (disseminating
"lessons learned" type info, better rescue techniques/ship designs),
and *maybe* funding in exceptional circumstances.
I suppose the "forces" would be more like using the Navy for emergency
operations, but I'd been reminded of the rescue vehicle design in an
online JTAS last year (redesigned scout for use as in-system
'ambulance' IIRC), and was thinking of *some* kind of service more
dedicated to rescue/emergency response than the Navy.
But then again, the subsector and planetary navies would utilize
resources a little better (one subsector force instead of many
individual world forces).
Rob D.
- --
Rob
I/O, I/O,
It's off to disk I go,
A bit or byte to read or write,
I/O, I/O, I/O...
- --
- --on Rob Malda's Slashdot.org
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:29:24 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
>From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
>
>This makes me wonder, how could/did the 3I *avoid* getting entangled
>in issues such as these? If the 3I is just a unifying police and
>protection force, then there would be many cases of injustices,
>misfortunes of circumstance, etc. where many people suffer, potentially
>needlessly, if the 3I stepped in and helped.
"The Imperium does not rule worlds, it rules the space between the worlds".
To suggest the Imperium steps in and helps is Dulinorism - a recovation of what has worked so well for
1100 years ...
>
>I suppose there'd be some kind of disaster relief of a sort (rescue
>those colonists on an atm-0 world after the life support is struck by
>an asteroid [assume they can last at least two weeks to get the message
>out and rescuers back, ok, bad example, but something like that.]).
The 3I wouldnt. Elements of the 3I may unofficially do so.
For example, the Vilani megacorps look at the long term. I would imagine if this happens, a
Makhadurin would look up the procedure manual, perhaps quickly calculate the net present value of
the goodwill gained based on a planned level of disaster-recovery expenditure, and then do so.
An Imperial noble may say 'But by God, that means Rakkali's Betting Shop will have to close. Cant
allow that, chaps ... I spent a lot of hours there in my younger days. I had to ship out of there in a hurry
when my unit moved ... I think they still owe me fifty credits or so. Dammit, if they close, I'll never get
that back ... I'll schedule a visit there, and get some people onto their problem with that damned
boulder'. Of course, that is idealism in the cloak of a dilletant :)
If that world has an Imperial noble, then of course that individual can and must go in hock to their
eyeballs and beyond - and if you are their friend, then declining to do what you can as well would not
be good for your future social prospects.
Individual corporations may 'do the right thing' as well, for reasons of long-term profit as well as altruism
(IMO in the 3I, corporations have 'social standing' as well).
I can easily see a Free Trader that has missed eight payments in the last fifteen staying to help as
long as possible, relying on a quiet word from the Patron in charge of the rescue effort to stall their
creditors (especially if the Free Trader was running some sort of physical risk to do the rescue. 'Let me
get this straight, chaps. Leni has spent the last month in a shuttle doing hot landings on Allaxi IV in
order to rescue Imperial Citizens from volcano eruptions, while his ship ferries them to safety on the
Mainworld. Of course the man has cash-flow problems. And you cads want to reposess his ship ? Get
out before I have you thrown out !")
The point I am trying to make is that the 3I has a network of non-State institutions that are good at
dealing with short-term problems. It's the long-term systemic problems of underdevelopment it cant fix.
>But wouldn't there have been pressure to help out in less dire
>circumstances? Lack of trade regulations causes one world to become
>unprofitable and forces most inhabitants to leave at great personal
>expense. Appeals to the local, subsector and sector nobles for relief
>would have to be numerous. Do they provide token assistance and say
>"that's all we have the resources for, you're basically on your own"?
>Even in the core worlds? (If so, that would promote population on
>"successful worlds" as opposed to the risky or unsuccessful ones, no?)
I dont get it. Why should the Imperium intervene, merely because Imperial citizens are choosing to
make a life elsewhere ? It's not as if something happened that wasnt their fault ...
Ian Whitchurch
PS A lot of these views arent the way I'd run a technological interstellar state. But I think it is the
ideology the 3I uses
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:46:00 +0200 (EET)
From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Paul_K=FCnnap?= <kuennap@mappi.helsinki.fi>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3720
Mr. bloo wrote
> I think the existance of US copyright law prior to the invention of
> movies counters your view pretty well.
I admit to having omitted the important word "modern" from the word copyright
law. US Copyright law per se existed since the 1790 federal copyright statute,
but that was something very different from what we consider copyright law
today, which in US was enacted with the Copyright Act of 1976 (I again admit to
oversimplifying the matter a bit). From the international point of view US
joined the Berne convention of 1886 only in 1988 (after which WTO and WIPO have
of course changed things a bit).
Anyways my point was not to discuss US copyright law, but the fact that modern
copyright law cannot handle the new media and therefore must be completely
overhauled, meaning that 3I is likely to have very different copyright law than
what we are used to now.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:04:50 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
On 22 Feb 2001, at 8:29, Ian or Katts wrote:
> >This makes me wonder, how could/did the 3I *avoid* getting entangled
> >in issues such as these? If the 3I is just a unifying police and
> >protection force, then there would be many cases of injustices,
> >misfortunes of circumstance, etc. where many people suffer, potentially
> >needlessly, if the 3I stepped in and helped.
>
> "The Imperium does not rule worlds, it rules the space between the worlds".
>
> To suggest the Imperium steps in and helps is Dulinorism - a recovation of what has worked so well for
> 1100 years ...
True. "The Imperium is the facilitator and the police and defense,
nothing more."
But didn't some other posts this week imply there was some [implicit]
authority over the worlds despite the "rules the spaces" phrase?
I.e., that's what they say when asked why they don't do X, but if it
really came down to it, were extremely important, whatever, they
*could* intervene. (But then those issues aren't what I was thinking
about initially anyway. See below.)
> The 3I wouldnt. Elements of the 3I may unofficially do so.
Good point.
<snip very nice examples>
> The point I am trying to make is that the 3I has a network of non-State institutions that are good at
> dealing with short-term problems. It's the long-term systemic problems of underdevelopment it cant fix.
I guess that's what I was trying [feebly] to get at, as this started
from discussions of economic policy and it's effects on society (corn
laws in Britain, U.S. dairy trade regulations).
I mentioned the lower level 'rescue' efforts as a side thought that
evidently clouded my main point. Sorry. (Though the rescue stuff was
interesting in itself.)
But the systemic problems of imbalance of wealth/technology/etc. is
what I was wondering about - how could the 3I *not* get involved in
helping underdeveloped regions improve their tech/trade levels?
(If this has been discussed to death before, just let me know.)
> >But wouldn't there have been pressure to help out in less dire
> >circumstances? Lack of trade regulations causes one world to become
> >unprofitable and forces most inhabitants to leave at great personal
> >expense. Appeals to the local, subsector and sector nobles for relief
> >would have to be numerous. Do they provide token assistance and say
> >"that's all we have the resources for, you're basically on your own"?
> >Even in the core worlds? (If so, that would promote population on
> >"successful worlds" as opposed to the risky or unsuccessful ones, no?)
>
> I dont get it. Why should the Imperium intervene, merely because
> >Imperial citizens are choosing to
> make a life elsewhere ? It's not as if something happened that wasnt their fault ...
Sorry, I think I restated my point better above.
- --
Rob
BREAKFAST.COM halted: Cereal port not responding!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:13:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
Rob Davenport writes:
> But didn't some other posts this week imply there was some [implicit]
> authority over the worlds despite the "rules the spaces" phrase?
> I.e., that's what they say when asked why they don't do X, but if it
> really came down to it, were extremely important, whatever, they
> *could* intervene. (But then those issues aren't what I was thinking
> about initially anyway. See below.)
You mean like how the US federal government is resposible for 'interstate
commerce'? ;)
> But the systemic problems of imbalance of wealth/technology/etc. is
> what I was wondering about - how could the 3I *not* get involved in
> helping underdeveloped regions improve their tech/trade levels?
Well, it apparently doesn't. The most likely reason is that the Imperium
is actually a rather weak government, fairly dependent on its member worlds
to go along with it. A single pop-A high-tech world can typically withstand
a sector fleet indefinately, so this is in fact fairly plausible.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:27:47 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3707
Wait, wait wait, are you having a Bar-B-Que without inviting me? They throw
really great B-B-Q's in Texas too. I want the shank portion! (I heard it
tastes just like chicken.) I have the perfect sauce too, 2 parts CT, 1 part
MT, 3 parts TNE and 1 part G:T. Loren we still love you brother. Like
someone else said years ago, "don't let the bastards wear you down."
I'll buy anything out there with your name on it, you're my/our kind of
gamer. You write good stuff and you are here to listen to what we have to
say and want. What more could an audience ask for out of it's writers? Not a
damn thing....
Thom Harris - GOFIR - <Gnarly Old Fart In Residence>
Life not only begins at forty, it begins to show.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 20, 2001 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3707
>
> And I don't much like people saying I should be set on fire either, like a
> previous offender.
>
> LKW
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:32:31 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: fencing
>
> Mr. Johnson,
> I've read that he hadn't planned on releasing it as two movies but,
> after looking at all the footage, realized he'd either have to throw away
> priceless stuff or make two films.
> This, of course, coud just be another Hollywood legend.
>
>
My understanding is that two movies were planned, but were filmed as one to
avoid paying the cast for both films. fortunately for the actors, after
filming, some additional scenes were required and they were able to
negotiate pay for both films.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:59:48 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: fencing
On 20 Feb 2001, at 15:01, Mark F. Cook wrote:
> Ah, yes. Reminds me of the bad ol' days at MCRD. The DI is demonstrating
> the proper thrust/recover for bayonet work.
>
> DI: "In the event that your bayonet becomes lodged in the body of
> your opponent, a simple discharge of your weapon is usually
> sufficient to dislodge the blade."
>
> Recruit: "Ah, Gunnery Sgt. If I'm still capable of discharging my weapon,
> there ain't gonna *BE* no bayonet combat!!"
>
> The rest of the class went downhill from there.
I'm not surprised. They never bothered teaching us Territorials bayonet
fighting, though I think the Regulars were stillintructed in it. It wouldn't
surprise me if that's been stopped since I left, though - the Steyr AUG is
about the worst bayonet platform imaginable.
Given that our attitude in the terries was pretty close to that of that recruit
it was probably just as well. In our opinion as long as there was ammo there
wouldn't be any of that uncouth bayonet and knife crap, and if there was no
ammo we wouldn't be in combat, one way or the other.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3723
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3724
Date: | 2/21/01 5:33:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 21 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3724
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
Re: fencing
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
RE: Ship habitability
Re: HTML gibberish
Re: fencing
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
Re: Don't run...
Re: fencing
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
RE: Democracy Now!
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Darrian names?
Re: Democracy Now!
RE: Democracy Now!
OT: Copyright (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3720)
Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:00:20 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Rob Davenport writes:
>> But the systemic problems of imbalance of wealth/technology/etc. is
>> what I was wondering about - how could the 3I *not* get involved in
>> helping underdeveloped regions improve their tech/trade levels?
>
>
> Well, it apparently doesn't. The most likely reason is that the Imperium
> is actually a rather weak government, fairly dependent on its member worlds
> to go along with it. A single pop-A high-tech world can typically withstand
> a sector fleet indefinately, so this is in fact fairly plausible.
Not bloody likely. Note the Imperium itself is above the Imperial Rules
of War.
CF: The Pacification Campaigns, where the Imperium pretty much wiped out
the ecosystem on the original Iiliesh sector capital after the first
Iiliesh Rebellion.
If a high-pop world gave the Imperium enough reason to, the Navy would
(and could!) reduce the world to bedrock and a poisoned atmosphere.
Or they could starve 'em out and ruin them financially by stopping
offworld trade, or simply infiltrate a huge number of IISS political
covert ops and destabilize the existing gummint.
Why doesn't this happen? Because large, High-pop, High-tech worlds have
far too much invested in the status quo to mess things up like that. The
Imperial practice of co-opting the ruling classes upon incorporation
into the Imperium and setting them up as nobles made that certain.
The same intertwined fortunes of the Nobility and the Megacorps taht
makes up the Imperium binds the Nobles to the status quo. They're not
going to do anything to rock the boat.
The reason there are undeveloped areas in the 3I is it's not
economically viable. An area has to have something of value in order to
be developed, mere rock and a possibly breathable atmosphere doesn't cut it.
1) It's not like the Imperium has serious population pressures, outside
threats (The Zhodani are a threat locally to _parts_ of the Spinward
Marches...remember one of the Frontier Wars was started, fought and
settled before word even got to Core about it and back with orders. (The
Third? Fourth?))
So there's nothing to really drive development of undeveloped areas on a
really large scale.
2) Much of the development efforts of the 3I are going to be driven by
the Megacorps. These aren't entities that worry about next months bottom
line so long as next _centuries_ is ok. There is endless time to
properly engulf the undeveloped worlds.
3) Finally, some 90% or more of the 3I's population already live on the
10% high-pop worlds; the rest of the boonies don't have enough people to
make the expense of development worthwhile.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:02:16 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: fencing
On 20 Feb 2001, at 15:07, Mark F. Cook wrote:
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> >For what it's worth, thrusting weapons are generally mor lethal than
> >choppers (e.g. cultlass). The Romans understood this, and used the Gladius
> >primarily as a thrusting weapon. The same for the Zulu short spear.
>
> That would be the Assegai. Ask the British foot soldiers defending Rourkes
> Drift about that one. :^)
>
> > The human skeleton is marvelously designed to fend of slashing attacks.
>
> Well, up to a point. A blade that is heavy enough (and sharp enough)
> is plenty efficient at removing limbs (and heads), as any Samurai can
> attest.
And participants in Fijian feuds. a friend of mine was witness to such a feud -
a couple of young men had this dispute over a girl, and the mext day the
brother of one of them walked up to the other and assaulted him with cane
knives (which are rather like machetes in size and shpe) and chopped one of the
victims arms off.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:06:13 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
On 20 Feb 2001, at 15:29, Tod Glenn wrote:
> > Dum-dums, and (I think) shotguns are banned under the various Hague
> conventions
> > (pre-WWI), not the Geneva conventions (which the USA never ratified, BTW).
> >
>
> IIRC, shotguns are not specifically banned. However, the German government
> complained that the US use of shotguns violated the ban on weapons designed to
> cause undue suffering.
Which was quite funny given that they first used flamethrowers (and poison gas,
though the aliies were actually the first to manufacture it).
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:22:38 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 20 Feb 2001, at 18:36, Terry Carlino wrote:
> as a somewhat interesting aside: When I was preparing to get out, a
> subcontractor we had on board was describing the hardships that existed in
> the job market for a retired CPO. According to him there were just no jobs
> to be had that paid as much as being on active duty. Of course he was a Mess
> Specialist, which meant that he was doing a job that is often performed by young
> people in their mid-twenties (as are most McD's managers.) He was a sales rep
> for one of the galley suppliers. He couldn't conceive of the fact that an
> ex-nuc, qualified as an Engineer Watch Officer (On steam and Gas Turbines), who
> also managed to get a BS while on active duty, might be able to find a job with
> a salary higher than an E-8 without great difficulty. Basically very few people
> outside the military get the pay of a Chief Mess Specialist, Yeoman or Personnel
> Specialist for doing the same job. Very few Chief Electronic Technicians,
> Electricians, or any of the computer specialty ratings make as little as they do
> in the military doing the same job. Just more proof of your point.
I'm begining to think the problem is one that has no ready solution. It looks
like the basic issue is that the supply and demand curves for various
specialites, etc are different inside and outside the military. Simply changing
the pay rates won't fix this, because on a ship the cooks, etc are just as
important to the function of the ship, and paying them less than other
specialties just because they've got nowhere better to go will damage their
morale. Our Army has this problem because of under-paying the infantry (though
their pay scales are the same, they don't get bonuses for civvie quals, etc),
and the only answer anybody's come up with is to pay everyone in the military
more, which ain't going to happen.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:22:38 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: HTML gibberish
On 20 Feb 2001, at 19:39, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> Gentles
>
> Are my posts appearing as mounds of HTML gibberish like Shaggy3D's? (just to
> pick a random example) I'm using AOL and not taking any special steps to prevent
> it.
Nope, and your headers proclaim that you're posting in ASCII, so it's not just
my email program (which is very good at hiding such crap from me).
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:22:38 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: fencing
On 20 Feb 2001, at 15:32, Tod Glenn wrote:
> > > The human skeleton is marvelously designed to fend of slashing attacks.
> >
> > Well, up to a point. A blade that is heavy enough (and sharp enough)
> > is plenty efficient at removing limbs (and heads), as any Samurai can
> > attest.
> >
>
> True, but technically a katana or wakazashi is really a big knife from the
> standpoint of construction. Axes work well, too, BTW.
In terms of function, perhaps - contruction, no. If you make a balde that
length the way you make a shorter blade you're liable to have real problems.
This is assuming traditional construction techniques. Using modern steels and
'lost metal' (what most people would call 'grinding', but that sounds so srude
:) techniques the blade length isn't so important.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:27:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
Bruce Johnson writes:
> > Well, it apparently doesn't. The most likely reason is that the Imperium
> > is actually a rather weak government, fairly dependent on its member
> > worlds to go along with it. A single pop-A high-tech world can
> > typically withstand a sector fleet indefinately, so this is in fact
> > fairly plausible.
>
> Not bloody likely. Note the Imperium itself is above the Imperial Rules
> of War.
Witness Invasion Earth. In the Spinward Marches, Mora and Trin each account
for around 10% of the total GSP, and since they put about as much into their
system defenses as they put into the IN, they've got about 10% of the total
forces. Except, it's spent on system defenses rather than on jump-capable
ships, so it's more like 1/5.
I was exaggerating, but only a little bit. Subduing an unruly major world
would take massive mobilization over a large area, and might well tempt
indiscretions by your neighbors.
The fact that Traveller has all of these 'system defense fleets', that are
apparently locally controlled, is one of the strongest arguments against the
existence of a strong central imperium. Imagine what the US would be if all
fifty states had their own armed forces, and you have the Imperium.
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:35:18 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
On 21 Feb 2001, at 4:34, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
>
> "What were the corn laws?"
>
>
> Mr. Harris,
> The Corn Laws were a series of statutes in Britain that forbid the
> importation of corn (what North Americans call wheat) except at certain
> prices and quantities. It was ensure high market prices for home grown
> corn. Seeing as nobles owned most of the farms growing said crop, keeping the
> prices high was in their best interest.
> Eventually, the rise in population, coupled with the labor needs of the
> newly indutrialized cities and towns, meant that Britain could no longer feed
> itself (this occurred roughly between 1820 to 1850). Agitation to repeal the
> Corn Laws was actually greater than agitation to allow more men to the vote.
> After all, wheat is bread, and bread is life.
> Of course the nobility, and the newly wealthy enscounced in their
> rotten borough seats in the Commons, resisted any efforts to reduce the
> tariffs out of self interest.
> A good parallel for us might be the dairy price supports championed by Sen.
> Proxmire. Intially meant to ensure that milk would available for children (a
> cynical motive if there ever was one), they have slowly driven smaller dairies
> out of the marketplace be reducing profit margins.
A better one might be your quotas on lamb and mutton imports. Designed to keep
your sheep farmers from actually having to farm efficiently by keeping NZ and
Aussie lamb and mutton out of the US. Never mind that in order for the US to be
much of a market the amount of sheep meat consumed by Americans would have to
go up enormously (IIRC it currently runs at about 1/2 lb per person per year),
and that we (NZ) were looking at a large advertising push to put this up which
would probably also benefit the US sheep industry, too (assuming that their
product was at all competitive).
Yes, US import quotas are a sore point in some parts of the world. :)
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:40:59 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
On 20 Feb 2001, at 23:44, JR Holmes wrote:
>This was intended to encourage and support dairy farmers
> outside the state of Wisconsin on the theory that milk, being a
> perishable product, was better produced close to the consumers.
They're right about this, if nothing else. Some brands of milk here in NZ are
transported about 300 miles to get to where I am, and their quality is
noticablely lower than that of more locally produced milk. Aside from being
about a day older, the vibration during transit isn't that good for milk.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:42:23 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
>The fact that Traveller has all of these 'system defense fleets', that are
>apparently locally controlled, is one of the strongest arguments against
the
>existence of a strong central imperium. Imagine what the US would be if
all
>fifty states had their own armed forces, and you have the Imperium.
This existed one time in the United States Pre 1860. There was the Federal
government and each of the states where responsable for producing units for
the army for the federal/confederate governments. This war was a war that
decided that from that time on there would be a strong federal government.
That is why before and during the civil war you see Units like
12th Illinois Volunteer Infantry
32nd Alabama Volunteer Infantry (my Great grand dads unit. )
15th new york Artillary
and why after the war there was a restructuring of the armys. and then you
had things like
7th US calvary
OBTrav: The Players are scouts pulled back into service to provide scouting
and recon for the imperial navy. they get assigned to 5th Regina Defence
Fleet which is being sent to crush the enemy on a moon in a near by system.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:45:12 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Don't run...
On 21 Feb 2001, at 9:14, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> At 03:22 PM 2/20/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>
> >It should be noted that army snipers in Viet Nam actually racked up a larger
> >number of kills, on average, per sniper.
>
> The army sniper were used differently. A matter of tactics, really. Also, the
> army shooters worked a more "target-rich" envitonment.
>
> >Also, unlike a sniper, an AC130 spectre is good for a grid square.
>
> Yes, but I can stop an entire regiment with one bullet at the right time.
> Properly used, snipers are an extremely effective method of disrupting
> enemy operations.
They're also a lot cheaper than AC130's plus air crew, maintenence, fuel, etc,
etc.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:49:00 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: fencing
On 21 Feb 2001, at 9:18, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> I didn't know I could do that many push ups with a M-16A1 balanced on the
> back of my hands.
Your instructors were nice. Our used to make you "form the position" (get into
position to do press-ups), and then make you hold the M16A1 out in front of
your using one arm for as long as possible, sometimes with your opposite foor
also in the air. I think two minutes was about the record, and failure to
impress the sadis...er Corporal was cause for a lot of running and press-ups
while everyone else was ironing their uniforms (thus involving more press-ups,
etc for not having your kit up to scratch...).
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:49:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
William Lane writes:
> This existed one time in the United States Pre 1860. There was the Federal
> government and each of the states where responsable for producing units for
> the army for the federal/confederate governments. This war was a war that
> decided that from that time on there would be a strong federal government.
I know.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:59:40 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
On 21 Feb 2001, at 16:05, Rob Davenport wrote:
> On 21 Feb 2001, at 11:18, William Lane wrote:
> > >>>And there may be a significant amount of actual history that
> > >>>would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion. For
> > >>>example, the United States of America until the invention of
> > >> the telegraph.
> > >>
> > >> In fact the US didn't have the kind of travel times that the Imperium
> > faces.
>
> Would a better example than the U.S. be the British Empire at it's
> height in the age of sail (uh, *think* *think* *think*, mid- late-
> 1850s?). How long did it take to sail from Portsmouth to Botany Bay,
> for example? (he said, having just finished reading P.O'Brian's
> "Desolation Island".) Certainly less than the year or two I believe is
> quoted for Regina to Capital, but substantial nonetheless.
A colonist ship from England to New Zealand at that time allowed up to six
months, but I think four was more normal.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:03:58 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
On 21 Feb 2001, at 15:42, William Lane wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >The fact that Traveller has all of these 'system defense fleets', that are
> >apparently locally controlled, is one of the strongest arguments against
> the
> >existence of a strong central imperium. Imagine what the US would be if
> all
> >fifty states had their own armed forces, and you have the Imperium.
>
> This existed one time in the United States Pre 1860. There was the Federal
> government and each of the states where responsable for producing units for the
> army for the federal/confederate governments.
Check out the US units in the War of 1812. At that time the federal government
didn't have the right to tax or raise troops, and relied on the member states
providing military units. After the war this changed, and it's one of the
reasons I manitain that the only winner in that war was the US Federal
government.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:38:25 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
At 11:01 AM -0500 2/21/01, Samuel D. Weiss wrote:
> >The Roman Empire is an example of how a Republic couldn't maintain a
>democracy over the stresses. Though, IIRC, Rome did not try and
>extend democracy to all its territories, so the size of the area that
>they tried to keep the Republic for was smaller than the size of
>empire.<
>
>In what way was Rome a Democracy?
>Even the Republic was an oligarchy and not a republic.
Yeah, that further lessens the analogy, but I didn't want to get into that....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:42:05 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
At 10:27 AM -0800 2/21/01, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
> >>And there may be a significant amount of actual history that
> >>would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion. For
> >>example, the United States of America until the invention of
> > the telegraph.
> >
> > In fact the US didn't have the kind of travel times that the
>Imperium faces.
>
>Oh? Check the travel times between California and the east coast back
>before the railroad.
<Shrug>
The bulk of the US was within decent travel times and the railroad
came shortly afterward (and the issue if communications, the
telegraph was earlier than the railroad, but I don't know the date).
Also, the times even for pony express wasn't bad either. Much better
than in the Imperium.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:44:01 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: Darrian names?
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:17:07 -0500 (EST), JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
wrote:
>Since I appear to be the second "me too" to post this, perhaps you
>could arrange to have this posted on one of the friendly Traveller web
>sites as well.
>I see that Jeff Zeitlin has something similar (though, from what I can
>tell, not as diverse) being hosted at Freelance Traveller. Perhaps
>you could arrange the same.
If the worksheet can be downloaded - ftp or http - from somewhere, if the
author will send me location info and a brief description, I can add it to
Freelance Traveller's Computer Connection. Duplication of functionality is
no bar to inclusion in the listing. Lack of knowledge _is_ - if I don't
know about it, I can't include it!
As far as 'less diverse', the languages listed for the worksheet are Ael
Yael, Aslan, Darrian, Dynchia, Gvegh, Happirhvani, Hhkar, K'kree, Norsk,
Oynprith, Vilani, Vuakedh and Zhodani. My WordGen (on Freelance Traveller)
misses Vuakedh and K'kree, but includes Arrghoun (another Vargr language),
Cafadi (not sure of the source), Dutch, Finnish, Maori, North Answerin (not
sure of the source), Thrintun (Larry Niven - forgot which story), and
Welsh. And at some point, I can add K'kree, as I have all the info
necessary. Just never got around to it. Most of the language definition
files for WordGen are converted from tables found on the now-defunct
Traveller at Don Mills web pages.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 16:52:59 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
...
>And how would the surrounding empires react. I can easily see the Solomani
>supporting the democrats, what about the others?
I can see the Solomani supporting whoever will keep it going
the longest :|
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:07:12 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
Rob Myers wrote:
>A rebellion in a setting the size of the Imperium would rapidly become
factionalized, with protracted
>conflict between competing factions breaking down the Imperium's
infrastructure. If anyone released a
>doomsday weapon, things would get really nasty.
>
>I've just had the strangest feeling of deja vu...
It wouldn't really have to be that way. There is little doubt that things
would quickly become factionalized, but that doesn't mean that a protracted
conflict between competing factions would be inevitable. Indeed, most of the
Rebellion's bloodshed could be said to be a result of two simple facts. One:
Lucan was a bitch, and Two: Dulinor's plan, though apparently well-intended,
was executed in such a way that the crap and the fan ran into each other
much too quickly. A sweeping popular movement (which strikes me as a very
important requirement for something like Bloo's "Democratic Imperium") would
likely have very different consequences.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:24:11 -0800
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: OT: Copyright (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3720)
As I understand it, there are two major objections to copyright as it is
practiced today (besides the simple desire to get stuff for free, which is
really at the core of Napster, software piracy, etc):
(1) As others have noted on this thread, "things" which can be infinitely
and perfectly copied, easily and inexpensively, and in some cases
necessarily (copies of web pages in your browser's cache, for example)
break most of the old assumptions. If you have a book, and you give it to
someone else, you no longer have a copy of the book. Not so with a Word
doc, HTML page, or MP3 file.
Of course, some would say it's just as ludicrous to try and copyright
intangible things like ideas. Which leads me to...
(2) Copyright was originally intended only to apply for a finite period; a
promise that the government would protect your work from being stolen, but
after X years, after you've made your money on it, it becomes public
property. However, powerful corporations who derive much of their income
from certain intellectual property (*cough*Disney*cough*) have a STRONG
interest in not letting the rights to that IP ever enter the public domain,
and have successfully lobbied to have the period extended every few years.
In simpler language: practically if not yet literally, NO corporate-owned
IP will EVER enter public domain again, as long as there's a scrap of money
to be made off it. Monopoly in perpetuity.
- --------------
Kelly St.Clair "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org Right here in fair Verona
With a capital T that rhymes with D
That stands for Duel..."
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:29:08 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]
Alan Bradley writes:
>A lot depends on how you see the nobility. There are two main schools of
>thought as to what the nobility is.
>
>One is that the nobility is created from above. That is, they are the
>agents of the Imperium/Emperor, interacting with Imperial member worlds in
>a manner something like diplomats.
>
>The other is that the nobility are the local elites of the imperial worlds
>and corporations, given titles and funny hats to wear. In this model,
>Delphine of Mora is a Duchess because she rules Mora. She doesn't rule
>Mora because she is a Duchess.
My take is that the former is the theory while the latter is the practice. That
is, the Imperium would like to keep planetary rulers and Imperial nobility
separate, but when a planetary ruler is too powerful, practical adjustments
must be made.
Here's an essay I wrote about it some years ago. Apologies to those of you who
has already seen it (Actually, I've rewritten it, so there may be something new
for you too)..
The first question I'd like to address is the overall structure of the
Imperium. We're told that the Imperium is feudal, but just what kind of
feudality is it. It is not the traditional set-up we know from Europe and
Japan, where the overlord owns the land and lends it to his vassals in return
for support. Most of the worlds the Emperor appoints nobles to does not
belong to him, and in many cases his vassals don't get much say in how it is
run (All worlds with democratically elected governments, for instance). Nor
is it the feudal technocracy of various fiction writers, where land has been
replaced by industrial holdings because, again, the Emperor does not own many
companies outright; all the major companies we hear of are share companies,
with the Emperor a minority shareholder in them all.
The answer comes when one consider that the salient point in a feudality is
not land or factories but power. It's just that in a traditional feudality
land is the source of power and in a feudal technocracy industrial holdings
are the source of power. I suggest that the power the Emperor lends out to
his vassals in return for their fealthy is the power to collect Imperial
taxes plus whatever other prerogatives the member worlds has ceeded to the
Emperor..
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE STRUCTURE OF THE IMPERIUM
=============================
In theory the structure of the Imperium is very simple: Each star system
constitutes a sovereignty governed in any way its inhabitants see fit. As
members of the Imperium these sovereignties have surrendered certain of
their rights to the Emperor; they agree to let him collect and administer
a certain percentage of their annual production, to obey a number of basic
laws (the Imperial High Laws), to let him tax certain activities, and to
leave foreign relations with non-Imperial states to him. The Emperor turns
over these rights to his vassals in return for fealthy and these vassals in
turn parcel them out to lesser vassals. Each star system thus have two
associated authorities: its own government administering system affairs and
an Imperial noble administering Imperial affairs.
That's the theory. Human nature (and most alien natures too) being
what it is, it is no surprise that in practice exceptions abound. Indeed, it
could be said that the exceptions are the norm.
MULTI-SYSTEM SOVEREIGNTIES: The Imperium frown on multi-system
sovereignties, but quite a number of these exist. In the early days of the
Imperium many pocket empires joined it as a unit. Whenever possible the
Imperium tries to break these up eventually, but a number still exists even
today. On occasion the Imperium has even been obliged to form some of its
own to meet exceptional political problems; the largest and most famous
examples are the Antarean and Solomani Autonomous regions. A more frequent
source of multi-system sovereignties are the planting of colonies by member
systems. Imperial policy favors the granting of full membership to colony
worlds that have grown big enough to make it on their own (which is why some
colonies are deliberately kept much smaller than optimum by their mother
worlds), but if a former colony prefers union with its mother world there is
not much the Imperium can do about it. Mega-corporations and the largest
sector-wide companies constitutes another kind of multi-system sovereignty.
IMPERIAL WORLD LEADERS: The principle of having two different kinds
of leaders, system leaders and Imperial nobles, frequently run afoul of the
pride and ambition of powerful world leaders, especially if they are
hereditary rulers. It often becomes a political necessity to appoint them
Imperial nobles. Thus the Matriarch of Mora is both the head of the Moran
government and the Duchess of Mora Subsector. The reverse can also happen.
An unscrupulous Imperial noble assigned to a young, developing world is in a
very good position to acquire title to vast tracts of land. In some cases he
can end up owning, or at least running, the whole world.
IMPERIALLY OWNED WORLDS: Over the years the Imperium have acquired
outright ownership of a lot of real estate including a number of whole
worlds. When that is the case, the noble assigned to it controls both its
internal and its Imperial affairs.
Imperial nobles have two different kinds of fiefs. One is a personal fief
granted to him in order to provide him with a secure income. Money
derived from personal fiefs go into the noble's private accounts and are
theoretically his to spend as he wants (in practice nobles with really
big personal incomes may be expected to contribute some of that wealth
for various semi-official purposes). This kind of fief is sometimes also
called an estate (An Imperial estate to distinguish it from a personal
estate which the noble own in his own right). The size and value of an
Imperial estate can vary tremendously. Not only may the Emperor give purely
symbolic estates to nobles who are rich in their own right and substantial
estates to others who are less well endowed, but a relatively poor estate
granted centuries earlier may have grown in value over the years. The
reverse, where a formerly rich estate loses its value also happens
occasionally, although it is rarer.
The other kind of fief is the kind described in the first paragraph of this
article, the power to collect and administer (or in the case of lesser
nobles, to collect and pass on to higher authorities) Imperial taxes. This is
also sometimes called a charge.
It is usually said that each Imperial world has a marquis associated with it.
This is true if the world is of reasonably high tech level and has a
population level of 7 or 8. The Imperial taxes from such a world comes to
something between MCr1000 and MCr100,000. Any world with taxes less than
MCr1000 will propably only rate a baron. A world with taxes higher than
MCr100,000 rates a count. Some worlds are too small to rate even a baron.
Such worlds are usually part of a neighboring fief.
Rank Charge Typical estate Typical value
Knight - - -
Banneret - 10 square kilometers MCr5
Baron Part of world 100 sq km MCr50
Marquis One world 1000 sq km MCr500
Count Several worlds 10,000 sq km MCr5,000
Duke Subsector/sector 100,000 sq km MCr50,000
Archduke Domain Entire world MCr500,000
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Further comments: This setup allows for a lot of local variety. You can have
nobles who function like viceroys (like Delphine of Mora), nobles who
function as governors-general, and nobles who function like ambassadors, all
depending on the political setup on their world. You can have nobles whose
ancestor used to run the world as the local ruler, but who was sidelined
when the world changed to democratic rule in a (bloodless) revolution. You
can have semi-autonomous duchies (Nothing smaller than a sector would be able
to have true internal autonomy, but just as the Imperium chooses to leave the
individuals worlds to run themselves it may choose to leave a duchy pretty
much alone as long as it didn't make waves).
Next a rather more troublesome question, namely: How many Imperial nobles are
there?
The trouble is that you get vastly different figures when you make a top down
and when you make a bottom up analysis. Going from the top down we have:
7 archdukes.
One duke per subsector or ca. 300 dukes[1].
Maybe 2-3 counts per subsector or ca. 750 counts[2].
One marquess per important world not having a count or duke or 3-4000
marquesses depending on various assumptions[3].
An undisclosed number of barons. Some worlds only rate a baron, but do worlds
with marquesses, counts, or dukes have a number of barons too?
[1] Note that some subsectors have no high-population worlds and would seem
unable to support a duke. YMMV.
[2] Unless worlds with a duke also have a couple of counts. The impression I
get is one world, one noble (Indeed, the examples of Norris and Leonard
of Aramis seems to show that one noble can have _several_ worlds), but I
can't quote any definitive statement.
[3] Again, worlds with dukes and counts may have marquesses too. I don't like
the idea, but YMMV.
In addition to these rank nobles there are a an undefined number of honor
barons and honor marquesses (but NOT counts and dukes). [_Imperial
Encyclopedia_, p. 13].
Going from the bottom up (per the Character generation system) we have a HUGE
number of honor nobles. Even if we assume that the number of Imperial barons
in the general population is lower than among PC material [4], the CGS still
allow people who start out as SL 10 to advance to the peerage. Worse, the
CGS allow people to advance to SL 15 despite the statement that counts and
dukes are not awarded for achievement alone.
[4] Which is a fair assumption, but marred by the fact that for twenty years
Traveller authors have used the CGS system to create NPC, giving us such
oddities as customs officials and privates of marines who are barons...
It seems to me that the treatment of Imperial nobles in the canon has failed
to consider how much power an Imperial noble would wield. A duke controls
the might of 30 worlds. The most powerful rulers in Earth's history only
controlled a part of a continent, albeit in some cases a rather large part. A
count may only control one or two percent of his world's GWP, but it would be
the GWP of more than a billion people. The American president controls a
larger slice, but of a smaller pie, and he has a congress to keep him in line
too. Yet all the adventures I have seen treats an Imperial noble more or less
like his European namesake. I think an Imperial baron (or at least a marquis)
would be more like a king or even an emperor than a small noble.
IMO whoever wrote the essay about nobles in _Library Data, (N-Z)_ made a
mistake when he made the noble titles given out by the CGS into Imperial
titles. In the original rules they were local (planetary) titles (There were
two more levels abobe, prince and king, and these were used by actual rulers
of worlds [Book 3, p. 22]). By making them Imperial nobles instead, an overlap
between local planet-bound nobles and their much more powerful star-spanning
Imperial namesakes were created and an entire slice of society left out of the
system. It leaps directly from the upper middle class (SL 10) to the Imperial
knight (SL 11). There is no room for the minor nobles that are so much more
suitable for travellerhood. You know; the younger son who won't get anything
when his father dies, the remittance man, the disinherited one, the displaced
one, the one who owns nothing but his good name and his faithful robot servant,
and all the other small nobles who is forced to leave home to seek their
fortune elsewhere. True, Imperial nobles have younger sons too, but when an
Imperial noble on a high-population world can easily rule more people than an
Old Earth emperor, will even their younger sons be treated like younger sons of
small barons? Wouldn't any child of an Imperial noble be more trapped by his or
her birth than any prince or princess you can find on Earth today?
Hans
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3724
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3725
Date: | 2/21/01 8:39:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 21 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3725
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: H2 vs H2O
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: H2 vs H2O
Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]
RE: What could go wrong?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]
System defenses
More KB3 Questions
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
RE: Civility and Politeness
Re: En Garde
Re: System defenses
Virus (not a flamewar starter, was Re: Democracy Now!)
more sword stuff
Re: H2 vs H2O
Ammonia
Re: H2 vs H2O
Re: fencing
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:58:25 -0600
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
At 03:16 PM 2/21/01, you wrote:
>Hello Everyone:
> Sometime in the past (roughly a week ago I think), someone said that you
> could
>just fill up iwth water instead of H2 and this would give you alot more fuel.
> After thinking about this for a while I decided to crunch some numbers
> just for
>the heck of it and also to satisfy my curiousity. What follows is back of
>the
>envolpe calculation on H2 vs H2O.
Snip
> We will not even go through the calculations for other hydron carbons.
>
>
> John W. Fox
>
Methane should work even better.
Four tons (by weight) of methane should give you one ton (by weight) of
hydrogen. Don't know the density off the top of my head though.
Richard Wilson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:33:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> (Please note that US relief efforts in Central America is not done
>out of the goodness of our hearts, but for rather more pragmatic
>concerns. We share a 3000km, undefended land border with several Third
>World nations.
Mexico is only one Third World nation, and Canada is not part of the Third
World, but I believe that the Confederate States may fairly be considered
independent Third World nations. The borders between the rest of the
United States and Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, West
Virginia, and Virginia probably make up more than 3000km.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:42:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
Richard Wilson writes:
> Methane should work even better.
>
> Four tons (by weight) of methane should give you one ton (by weight) of
> hydrogen. Don't know the density off the top of my head though.
Methane, ammonia, and water all work out pretty similar in volume per unit
hydrogen stored. For various reasons I suspect methane and water would be
the preferred form; if you assume that (a) the jump drive has to work off
of preprocessed fuel, and (b) dumping stuff out of the airlock in J-space
is not generally a good idea, the preference is to carry a supply of
processable fuel, which will be processed into raw hydrogen in J-space, and
the waste materials stored. Of 'waste materials', the easiest to deal with
would probably be CO2.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:48:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Thanks for reposting your essay, Hans. I think that you and I have a very
similar vision of the Imperium.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:52:27 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: RE: What could go wrong?
William wrote:
>A distinctive rattle/squeak in the Air ventilation system. this could
be
>caused by the bearings on a fan to be going out or a fan blade to be
>slightly bent.
Better yet, the noise is heard from the ventilation system, but cannot
be located because it is not coming from any ventilation equipment. It
is being transmitted through a mechanical connection to the ventialtion
system in a inaccessable location and is amplified and echoed by the
ductwork material and configuration. The faulty part sounds very
different in the room it is in.
This should drive the party nuts trying to find the cause.
Charles H
P.S. Repair solution: repair the malfunctioning part of the different
system, add more supports and tiedowns to the ventilation ducts.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:48:35 -0500
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
>This existed one time in the United States Pre 1860. There was the Federal
government and each of the states where responsable for producing units for
the army for the federal/confederate governments. <
This is incorrect. The States where specifically prohibited from having
troops and the Federal government specifically empowered to maintain a
standing army. The States maintained Militia units that were, again using
specifically granted powers, brought into Federal service.
Further, the raising of new troops was specifically left to the States as an
extension of the Militia system as being more feasible than the Federal
government attempting to do so.
>This war was a war that
decided that from that time on there would be a strong federal government.<
Actually most of the issues of Federal vs. State power had already been
decided years before in favor of the Federal government.
The two most significant changes caused by this war were the extension of
the rights in the first 8 Amendments being recognized as applying to the
States as well as the Federal government and the collapse of the originally
conceived militia system due to apathy among the citizens.
>Check out the US units in the War of 1812. At that time the federal
government
didn't have the right to tax or raise troops, and relied on the member
states
providing military units. After the war this changed, and it's one of the
reasons I manitain that the only winner in that war was the US Federal
government.<
As stated above, incorrect. The Federal government had both the power to tax
and raise troops from the adoption of the Constitution. If you want proof,
look at who ran the military academies at West Point and Annapolis. New York
and Maryland or the Dept. of War? And who did the graduating officers take
an oath to serve, their State governments or the Constitution?
Sam
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:49:08 -0500
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
>Yeah, that further lessens the analogy, but I didn't want to get into
that....<
LOL
Sam
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:15:14 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]
Hello Hans,
I read your article with interest. I have a few questions to point your
way, and see how you resolve them...
1) each world owes taxes to the Imperium. What would you estimate a fair
taxation system would be for the Imperium? Keep in mind that the Local
governments would want to be able to retain a set amount of the taxes
collected for their own local needs.
2) Given that in a society where money is power, would not the Imperial
Nobles be able to insinuate themselves within the local power structure not
by virtue of their Rank per se, but by virtue of their money?
3) What is the *need* for a Baron, Marquis, or Duke within a Local Power
Structure? More specifically - you meantion that some nobles have more
power than ancient emperors of Earth. As I see the bulk of your article -
it would seem that the only *power* a Noble has is the power that the
Imperial Emperor cedes to him from what was ceded by the world to the
Imperium. Thus?
Planet A agrees that it will not implement laws that violate the Imperial
Statutes on trade, permit no legal slavery, etc... plus pay taxes and
provide men for the draft.
Based on planet A's concessions, what would a Baron of said planet A have
in the way of power?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 03:15:43 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: System defenses
Bruce Johnson writes:
>
>Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
>>...The most likely reason is that the Imperium is actually a rather weak
>>government, fairly dependent on its member worlds to go along with it. A
>>single pop-A high-tech world can typically withstand a sector fleet
>>indefinately, so this is in fact fairly plausible.
>
>Not bloody likely. Note the Imperium itself is above the Imperial Rules
>of War.
>
>CF: The Pacification Campaigns, where the Imperium pretty much wiped out
>the ecosystem on the original Iiliesh sector capital after the first
>Iiliesh Rebellion.
It should be noted that Iliesh apparently thought they had a shot at resisting
the Imperium. They were wrong, but that's what they believed. The question is,
of course, how unrealistic that belief was.
As it happens, a sector is just about what I would guesstimate would be the
smallest group of worlds that could have a chance to resist the Imperium. But
thsat's just a SWAG and could be quite wrong.
>If a high-pop world gave the Imperium enough reason to, the Navy would
>(and could!) reduce the world to bedrock and a poisoned atmosphere.
Agreed, but what is "enough reason"? It doesn't have to be beyond the capability
of the Imperium to crush a world, it just has to be more expensive than the
Emperor is willing to pay.
>Or they could starve 'em out and ruin them financially by stopping offworld
>trade, or simply infiltrate a huge number of IISS political covert ops and
>destabilize the existing gummint.
Sure. But what if these actions worries enough OTHER high-population worlds?
>Why doesn't this happen? Because large, High-pop, High-tech worlds have
>far too much invested in the status quo to mess things up like that.
The same could be said for the Imperium.
And Anthony replied:
>>Not bloody likely. Note the Imperium itself is above the Imperial Rules
>>of War.
>
>Witness Invasion Earth. In the Spinward Marches, Mora and Trin each account
>for around 10% of the total GSP, and since they put about as much into their
>system defenses as they put into the IN, they've got about 10% of the total
>forces. Except, it's spent on system defenses rather than on jump-capable
>ships, so it's more like 1/5.
Actually, they put more than twice as much into their system defenses. Worlds
retain 70% for their own forces and pay 30% to the Imperium. And half of what
goes to the Imperium is used on subsector forces which are raised and maintained
at the subsector level, which means that a lot of the crews will come from the
local capital...
>I was exaggerating, but only a little bit. Subduing an unruly major world
>would take massive mobilization over a large area, and might well tempt
>indiscretions by your neighbors.
I think you exaggerate by more than a bit, but I also think that you are right
in your conclusion that Imperial nobles won't like to provoke high-population
worlds.
>The fact that Traveller has all of these 'system defense fleets', that are
>apparently locally controlled, is one of the strongest arguments against the
>existence of a strong central imperium. Imagine what the US would be if all
>fifty states had their own armed forces, and you have the Imperium.
I see it as a balance between high-pop systems, subsector dukes, and the
Emperor.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:36:04 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: More KB3 Questions
Dear Folks -
1. Failed Task Throws
Ages ago, Eris asked Kenneth:
>Piter's friend, Rnold is a very strong fellow, he has an Str of
>14, and he grabs that hatch wheel and gives it a mighty yank. I
>take it he still rolls the default 1d6 on his Lifting task? How
>is Rnold's 14 helping him here?
>
>He may not fail as badly as Piter, but he is still going to fail
>as *often* isn't he?
Kenneth, you never really answered this question - or maybe I'm just
confused.
If Rnold rolls a Task Throw of 5 on 1D and you roll a Diff Throw of 18 on
3D, he has still _failed_, hasn't he?
You see, Eris also wrote:
>And Rnold would have subtracted his 14 from the 18, giving him 4, and a
success...barely, >but you *did* say this was a "damn hard" task.
As far as I can tell, Rnold FAILED his roll. Therefore you subtract 14 from
18 and get 4, which you compare to the Task Roll of 5. Since the Task Throw
_beat_ the Diff Throw minus Stat, it is only a Regular Failure.
Am I interpreting this correctly???
2. "Exactly Equal" Cases
Also, your rules missed the "exactly equals" cases:
- when the Task Throw and Difficulty Throw are _equal_, which one
prevails?
- when a successful Task Throw is _equal_ to Diff Throw + Stat, is it
standard or marginal success?
- when a failed Task Throw is _equal_ to Diff Throw - Stat, is it a
regular or greater failure?
3. Does Greater Success Work?
I'm really having difficulties with the Greater Success stuff. To me, it
seems counter-intuitive at first glance. If you absolutely blitz the Task
Throw (roll really high), you are more likely to achieve Marginal Success
than Greater Success. Also, the higher the Diff Throw, the more chance you
could roll under Diff Throw + Stat and thus the more chance of Greater
Success. Why? (what are your thoughts?)
4. How Do Task Throw Bonuses Work?
Now, I know you haven't shown us all the combat mods yet, but... say you
had a long-range weapon (+5 to Aimed Fire) with an advanced sight (+4) and
you are aiming at a stationary target (+2), you get +11 to hit. This will
almost certainly convert any success into only a Marginal Success (assuming
I was correct in my earlier interpretation). In other words, the better
your equipment, the worse the result! One idea I had to fix this is to only
compare the _base roll_ (no mods) with the (Diff Throw + Stat).
Comments?
(Kenneth, could you send your replies to me as well as the list, since I'm
getting snowed under by work emails, let alone my 50-or-so unread TML
digests!!!)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:38:14 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
"(Please note that US relief efforts in Central America is not done
out of the goodness of our hearts, but for rather more pragmatic concerns.
We share a 3000km, undefended land border with several Third
World nations."
Mexico is only one Third World nation, and Canada is not part of the Third
World, but I believe that the Confederate States may fairly be considered
independent Third World nations. The borders between the rest of the United
States and Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, West Virginia,
and Virginia probably make up more than 3000km.
Mr. Goffin,
Ouch! And I think you might stir up some of the Southrons here on the
TML.
Once again, the error is mine. In a hurry, I mistakenly typed the
wrong figure. 3000km. Think of it as a slip of the fingers, rather than the
tongue.
However seeing as Mexico has no effective border controls, along with
none of the so-called nations to the south of her, I could argue that all of
their "borders" can be added together to reach my "3000km" figure.
As for Canada, I have previously stated my belief that her current
culture is superior to that of the US. Perhaps they should start looking
warily at their southern border.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 20:54:49 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness
At 10:03 PM 2/20/01 +1300, Frank Pitt wrote:
>James wrote:
> >Though in my experience, the only reliable sub killers are submarines
> >themselves....
>
>Actually, the best sub-killer is a P3 Orion.
><grin>
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOH!!!!!!!!!!!
Heeheeheeheehehehehehehehhehhmuyrkhuyfougy........^#@$%(&%^$%!!!
(gasp....gasp...draw breath....) OH. MY. GOD.
gigglegigglechortlechucklessniggersnigggerGESNORT!!
Sorry. I couldn't help myself there. Every time someone mentions P3s,
I think of one P3 crew we worked with whilst on my first boat. To begin
with, we were at PD with both scopes, one of my radio antennas, and I think
the snorkel all sticking up out of the water. One of the O-gangers was in
Control, with a radio handset in his hand, watching the P3 through the
scope, and saying, "OK, you' bear 340 from us, fly 160....you're getting
closer....3, 2, 1, mark! you're right overhead....OK, you're at 140, fly
320....getting closer....almost there....mark! on top," &c, &c. Even with
all that stuff sticking up out of the water, and us vectoring him in and
marking on top, it took six tries before he finally spotted us.
James
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 04:07:01 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: En Garde
There was an article in an early issue of _challenge_ -- #26 IIRC -- with En
Gardesque rules for playing cadets in a military academy. There were two
different "social levels", peer standing (popularity) and class standing
(academic achievement). Various activities gave points to either but very few
to both. Getting caught duelling, for instance, gave oodles of demerits but
refusing a challenge caused massive loss of face. I ran it for my players for
a couple of sessions and it was great fun.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:46:02 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: System defenses
Just to add a little fun to this thread...
It would be highly inadvisable for *any* force, be it Imperial or Rebel, to
ignore the *convention* of refraining from the use of unrestricted warfare
in war. What would it take to render a world uninhabitable once your own
world has been rendered uninhabitable? Somehow, I suspect once a world
dies - that the populations on *all* worlds will get greatly worried. When
a single world deep inside the Imperium suffers the same fate as a rebel
world, people will become greatly concerned as to defensive abilities...
What surprises me is that I have yet to see a single publication put out
for Traveller based on the Ine Givar.
GM: You are a local Cell within the Imperium, dedicated to the overthrow of
the Imperial structure. What are your plans?
It would be interesting to see just how effective the Ine Givar could be,
especially if they started getting their hands on weapons of mass
destruction - bioweapons as it were? Imagine, what would happen if the Ine
Givar were to target, not the people themselves, but the plants of a single
world? They create a carrier such as perhaps a honey bee. It pollenates
plants left and right, and then - a year later, the plant disease starts
striking.
On second thought, perhaps it would be wise not to go into such details...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 21:42:33 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Virus (not a flamewar starter, was Re: Democracy Now!)
> My most humble and abject apologies, Mr. Wiseman.
> My personal feelings towards Virus do not extend
> to it's mileau or the materials set there.
I've actually started to come to like Virus now that I regard it as a weird
supernatural psionic spirit-demon that possesses machinery. Makes for a kewl
monster in a Dark Conspiracy/Delta Green/Call of Cthulu/Fading Suns version
of the Traveller setting.
Ciao,
Joseph R. Dietrich, yikes@evansville.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:54:30 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: more sword stuff
Since this thread is up and running, here is some of my previous statements
on the subject
http://spacevermin.homepage.com/TRAV/TravSwords.html
I know it was mentioned before, but it's worth repeating, Sir Richard
Burton's book, "The Book of the Sword", first published in 1884 is a good
reference.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Vikings? There ain't no vikings here. Just us honest farmers. The town was
burning, the villagers were dead. They didn't need those sheep anyway.
That's our story and we're sticking to it. http://www.bigfoott.com/~urbin/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:00:48 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
Richard Wilson wrote:
> Four tons (by weight) of methane should give you one ton (by weight)
> of hydrogen. Don't know the density off the top of my head though.
Liquid CH4 is 440 kg/m^3 at 100K and 101 kPa (1 atm). Liquid hydrogen
is 70.8 kg/m^3 at 20 K and 101 kPa (1 atm).
Both have a rather small temperature range range between liquid and
solid states.
Better than either is ammonia, at about 18% H2 by weight, with a
density of 685 kg/m^3 at 220 K. Its boiling point is much higher than
either CH4 or H2, so it is a lot easier to keep liquid.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:10:47 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Ammonia
>Better than either is ammonia, at about 18% H2 by weight, with a
>density of 685 kg/m^3 at 220 K. Its boiling point is much higher than
>either CH4 or H2, so it is a lot easier to keep liquid.
Hmmm...
I can see it now - refinery mishap, and the ship is flooded with Ammonia.
But you have to admit, it would be a rather unique way of removing pests.
Flood the ship with Ammonia <grin>
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:24:04 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Methane, ammonia, and water all work out pretty similar in volume per unit
> hydrogen stored. For various reasons I suspect methane and water would be
> the preferred form; if you assume that (a) the jump drive has to work off
> of preprocessed fuel, and (b) dumping stuff out of the airlock in J-space
> is not generally a good idea, the preference is to carry a supply of
> processable fuel, which will be processed into raw hydrogen in J-space, and
> the waste materials stored.
>Of 'waste materials', the easiest to deal with would probably be CO2.
If you have the facilities to deal with LH2, liquefying an N2/O2 mix
should be child's play. The big advantage is that you can just feed
some of it into the ship's air supply instead of cracking CO2 :)
A suitable unrefined fuel producing an N2/O2 mix would be a solution
of ammonia in water (ammonium hydroxide).
Ammonium hydroxide solution is actually denser in hydrogen than NH3
and H2O separately, easy to obtain from natural sources, and isn't
hard to store. The "waste" from 1 ton of such a solution would
provide at least a person-week of breathing air as a waste-product.
So any jump-capable ship can do without CO2 recycling for months, it
just needs to be able to remove CO2 from the air -- a much easier
task. With a little distillation you can do without water recycling
too, by removing the ammonia from some of the unrefined fuel. All you
need is food.
- - Tim
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:35:45 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: fencing
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:32:31 -0800, "Tod Glenn"
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>> Mr. Johnson,
>> I've read that he hadn't planned on releasing it as two movies but,
>> after looking at all the footage, realized he'd either have to throw away
>> priceless stuff or make two films.
>> This, of course, coud just be another Hollywood legend.
>>
>>
>
>My understanding is that two movies were planned, but were filmed as one to
>avoid paying the cast for both films. fortunately for the actors, after
>filming, some additional scenes were required and they were able to
>negotiate pay for both films.
Tod's version is that which I also recall. In fact, most of the
participants refused to every work with Lester ever again. There was
also some talk of a lawsuit.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:35:37 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:40:59 +1300, "Rupert Boleyn"
<rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote:
>On 20 Feb 2001, at 23:44, JR Holmes wrote:
>
>>This was intended to encourage and support dairy farmers
>> outside the state of Wisconsin on the theory that milk, being a
>> perishable product, was better produced close to the consumers.
>
>They're right about this, if nothing else. Some brands of milk here in NZ are
>transported about 300 miles to get to where I am, and their quality is
>noticablely lower than that of more locally produced milk. Aside from being
>about a day older, the vibration during transit isn't that good for milk.
I will not deny that either. However, when the price support program
was originally created, the problems of transporting milk safely were
considerably greater than they are today. With the improvements in
transport since the creation of those supports, the scale they embody
is no longer commensurate with the risks of transport.
Thus the attempts to remove the price supports.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:35:45 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 06:51:54 -0000, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
>From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>
> "Sadly, as a resident of Wisconsin, USA, and as one, who on more than
>one occasion voted for Mr. Proxmire (don't ask what kind of
>dunderheads were often running against him when I reached voting age),
>I must inform you that, though the idea of dairy price supports would
>appear to benefit the dairy farmers of Wisconsin, that was not the
>case."
>
>Mr. Holmes,
> After reading your post, sir, I stand corrected. As is usual with my
>posts, I attempted the stretch a bare amount of information, or an incorrect
>assessment of such infomation, to make a point. It seems that final
>paragraphs of my efforts always seem to get me into so much trouble.
>Hopefully, I will learn when to stop typing and thus raise the value of my
>posts by decreasing their actual size.
> My incomplete knowledge of federal milk price supports, and my slur of
>Sen. Proxmire's support of them, came from a landlord of mine. I rented a
>farm house from this gentleman. He would visit occasionally and bemoan the
>fact that he and his brother had found it impossible to continue in the
>family dairy business. I should of discounted his opinions seeing that he
>only visited to collect his check, "borrow" a few beers, and hide from his
>wife.
>
> Larsen
Larsen (I use the convention of addressing people per their
signature):
Your ideas of the nature of dairy price supports (based upon an
incomplete or misapprehended idea of their nature) are very common,
even among people more directly affected by them. Further, stretching
minimal information is part and parcel of the TML experience, and not
a point of appology.
I have no doubt that price supports were a part of the reason that
your one-time landlord found it uneconomical to continue his dairy
business. How they worked against his business, I can't guess without
more particulars.
Please feel free to refer to me in whatever more familiar manner you
may wish. Most people will use "JR".
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3725
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3726
Date: | 2/22/01 3:10:34 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Thursday, February 22 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3726
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question
Re: Ammonia
Re: H2 vs H2O
Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]
RE: Don't run...
Re: Nobles and the Imperium
Re: H2 vs H2O
Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]
RE: Spectres in the machine...
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
RE: Civility and Politeness
Re: Civility and Politeness
Re: Imperial Development Policy (or lack thereof)
RE: Democracy Now!
Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Looking for a home
Re: Nobles and the Imperium
Unsubscribing now
OT: Ahem...Third World Nations?
Re: Looking for a home
Re: more sword stuff
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:35:45 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question
On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:59:48 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) wrote:
>No, the tranistion from "normal temp" to "complete iceage" was a
>century or so. And the transition from "complete ice age" to "super
>tropical" and then back to normal was also only a few 100 years.
>
>But the "complete ice age" and "normal" stages lasted tens of thousands
>of years.
I'll defer to your more accurate recollection. It was the transitions
which were surprisingly rapid, not the overall oscillation itself.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:44:14 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Ammonia
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> I can see it now - refinery mishap, and the ship is flooded with
> Ammonia.
Worse than being flooded with liquid H2? (Refer to "standard penis
size measurement in Traveller" thread)
> But you have to admit, it would be a rather unique way of removing
> pests. Flood the ship with Ammonia <grin>
That it would :)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 22:52:06 +0000
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
Maybe I'm missing something... (I frequently do...)
Fuel is LHyd...
Water is H2O...
Ignoring atomic wieghts/volumes (of which i know less than nothing)
If water is 2 Hyd atoms and 1 Oxy atom
Then 1 dTon of water has to conain less Hyd than 1 dTon of LHyd, right?
So where is the efficiency, or practicality of storing fuel in unrefined
form?
Someone please explain (in easy to understand words and phrases :-) what
I'm missing
Thanks,
Doug
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:14:04 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]
Glenn wrote:
>>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>Thanks for reposting your essay, Hans. I think that you and I have a
very
>similar vision of the Imperium.
Same here Hans, give me a day or two to reread it and see if I can come
up with a better comment.
Charles
hmm, only one comment on my Nobles post and that was direct. Is this
good or bad???
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:27:13 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Don't run...
Tod Glenn wrote :
> Frequently an army sniper, equiped with a M21 with
> STANO sight and sionics supressor was dropped, with his
^^^^^^
> team, into a target rich environment just as night fell.
An interesting misprint in the context of the TML...
> BTW, I have a great photo of the inside of an AC-130 during firing. The
> crew chief is shoveling empty brass with a coal shovel.
Cool!
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:22:46 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium
Hal writes:
>1) each world owes taxes to the Imperium. What would you estimate a fair
>taxation system would be for the Imperium? Keep in mind that the Local
>governments would want to be able to retain a set amount of the taxes
>collected for their own local needs.
_Striker_ says that each world sets its own military budget and that the
Imperium gets 30% of whatever that is. These budgets ranges from 1% of GWP to
15% of GWP with the worlds of the Imperium averaging 3%. Since a strict
interpretation of this would mean that a world with a low budget (which would
burden the imperium by not being as well able to defend itself) would get away
with contributing less to the Imperium, I favor changing that to a flat 1% of
GWP paid to the Imperium. YMMV.
In any case, the world's GWP would be calculated according to some formula
agreed upon between the world and the Imperium, and the Imperium would get a
check for that amount. As the only way of transferring wealth from one system to
another is to transport goods from one to the other, the Imperium would mostly
get its cut in goods and services. Starships, supplies, annual maintenances,
etc.
>2) Given that in a society where money is power, would not the Imperial
>Nobles be able to insinuate themselves within the local power structure not
>by virtue of their Rank per se, but by virtue of their money?
Certainly, and some undoubtedly do just that. Marquis Leonard of Aramis has the
entire world of Lewis as his personal fief, but I don't think he got it from the
Emperor. After all, only archdukes are supposed to get an entire world as a
fief. Propably one of Leonard's ancestors grabbed the world for himself back in
earlier times and the Emperor merely ratified that at a later date.
>3) What is the *need* for a Baron, Marquis, or Duke within a Local Power
>Structure?
Imperial high officials has to be peers. Just how high 'high officials' is is
not defined anywhere, but if you need as little as half a dozen for each
subsector government and a bunch for higher levels plus a number of 'spares' for
slack, you quickly end up needing quite a few.
>More specifically - you meantion that some nobles have more power than ancient
>emperors of Earth. As I see the bulk of your article - it would seem that the
>only *power* a Noble has is the power that the Imperial Emperor cedes to him
>from what was ceded by the world to the Imperium. Thus?
Well, even those Imperial nobles who 'only' controls the Imperial taxes of a
high-population world controls more wealth than any Old Earth emperor ever did.
Those Imperial nobles that are also planetary rulers are even more powerful, and
so are the subsector dukes.
> Planet A agrees that it will not implement laws that violate the Imperial
>Statutes on trade, permit no legal slavery, etc... plus pay taxes and
>provide men for the draft.
>
>Based on planet A's concessions, what would a Baron of said planet A have
>in the way of power?
A baron would propably not have all that much direct power, although he would be
very rich by our standards. But his biggest power would lie in his connection to
other Imperial nobles. I don't know the English term for the phenomenon, but
it's something to do with association. Here on Earth we used to have a lot of
sovereign kings. The king of, say, Denmark wasn't nearly as powerful as the
kings of France and Spain and England, but because the kings of France, Spain,
and England considered kingship to be something special, the less powerful kings
'rode on their coattails', so to speak, and was accorded equal respect. Kings
got 21 cannon salutes, for example, no matter how small their kingdoms. Also,
some Imperial barons would be the 'opposite number' of planetary rulers. Only
rulers of medium-population worlds, granted, but planetary rulers nontheless.
The association effect again.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:32:53 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
Doug C. wrote:
>
> Maybe I'm missing something... (I frequently do...)
>
> Fuel is LHyd...
> Water is H2O...
> Ignoring atomic wieghts/volumes (of which i know less than nothing)
That's the thing -- water molecules pack closer together than hydrogen
molecules. Atoms aren't hard balls that take up a fixed amount of
space, and molecules aren't really solid shapes either.
Maybe it would help to think of molecules in liquids as being a bit
like flocks of birds or swarms of insects. They have a (roughly)
fixed density, but it's not because they are actually packed tightly
against each other, it's that they sort of have a "preferred"
distance.
Water molecules have a smaller "preferred" distance than hydrogen
ones, for various reasons.
It's not a great analogy, but it's what I could come up with on short
notice.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 23:43:37 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]
Thanks for the repost. This time, I burn it on a CD. :-)
Couple of questions:
Have you thought about looking at regional world populations
when thinking about the relative influence of different noble
ranks? For example, worlds of populations (which fuels the
trade equation) X or below might only deserve a Barony.
Pops Y get a Marquis, Pop Z or greater get Count (where
X<Y<Z).
With that sort of mechanism, a huge world might have a
Count, a Marquis or two, and a handful of Barons, where
a low pop world may have only a Baron or Banneret.
That would also have the variety you mention, where Baron
Little World and Count Big World each have only one vote
in the Moot (if it's one world, one vote).
Regarding the Typical value for fiefs. Is that 'annual' value?
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:50:16 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Spectres in the machine...
Jeff Rowse wrote :
> I believe the 'Twilight 2000' supplement "Aviation & Nautical
> Handbook"(? I think that's what it's called) had stats for
> the Spectre gunships. I can try to dig it out if anyone's interested...
It does, and I have it sitting on my bookshelf not teen fet away, so I can
get it too if anyone wants them.
> Also, <***FLAME WAR ALERT***?
>
> Democracy, bah! I spit on your Democracy. Technical Fuedocracy all the
> way!
Personally I prefer neo-fascist socio-democratic monarchies.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 05:47:20
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
I worked with the team developing the AC-130. An interesting variation was
putting the 50-caliber machine guns on the O-2s (light observation planes).
>>Heck, even the old Spooky is fun for PCs
>I've always pictured the design team meeting for the AC-47..
>"OK, and back here is the where the 105 goes."
>"The what?"
>"The 105mm howitzer. Useful thing in this sort of role."
>"You want to mount *side firing field artillery* in an aircraft?!"
>"Just a little one..."
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:15:18 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness
James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain wrote :
> At 10:03 PM 2/20/01 +1300, Frank Pitt wrote:
> >Actually, the best sub-killer is a P3 Orion.
> ><grin>
>
> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! HOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOHOH!!!!!!!!!!!
> Heeheeheeheehehehehehehehhehhmuyrkhuyfougy........^#@$%(&%^$%!!!
> (gasp....gasp...draw breath....) OH. MY. GOD.
> gigglegigglechortlechucklessniggersnigggerGESNORT!!
>
> Sorry. I couldn't help myself there. Every time someone mentions P3s,
> I think of one P3 crew we worked with whilst on my first boat. To begin
> with, we were at PD with both scopes, one of my radio antennas,
> and I think
> the snorkel all sticking up out of the water. One of the
> O-gangers was in
> Control, with a radio handset in his hand, watching the P3 through the
> scope, and saying, "OK, you' bear 340 from us, fly 160....you're getting
> closer....3, 2, 1, mark! you're right overhead....OK, you're at 140, fly
> 320....getting closer....almost there....mark! on top," &c, &c.
> Even with
> all that stuff sticking up out of the water, and us vectoring him in and
> marking on top, it took six tries before he finally spotted us.
US Coast Guard was he ?
RNZAF P3's regularly outperformed other airforces with supposedly better
equipment (such as Nimrods) during the annual sub-hunt competition, largely
because they actually used their eyes rather than relying on the MAD and
other gear.
But they don't really need to see you, just need to know the general
location, then drop a couple of nuclear depth charges...
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:31:09 +1100
From: "Jeffrey Malone" <nparker1971@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Frank G. Pitt <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 5:15 PM
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness
> RNZAF P3's regularly outperformed other airforces with supposedly better
> equipment (such as Nimrods) during the annual sub-hunt competition,
largely
> because they actually used their eyes rather than relying on the MAD and
> other gear.
I presume you are referring to the Fincastle Trophy...RNZAF performance has
been good but scarcely spectacular...and they had better be good with their
eyes, 'cos the equipment fit on their P3s is shockingly out of date...
OBTrav - comparing the US (and Australian) pressure that has been bought to
bear on NZ to upgrade its defence expenditure and capabilites, what would be
the 3I's approach to defence expenditure in **client states** on its borders
(e.g., in Foreven)?
**this is not meant to infer that NZ is, or was, a client state of the US**
J.M.M.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:26:22 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Development Policy (or lack thereof)
>From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
>> The point I am trying to make is that the 3I has a network of non-State institutions that are good at
>> dealing with short-term problems. It's the long-term systemic problems of underdevelopment it cant
fix.
>
>I guess that's what I was trying [feebly] to get at, as this started
>from discussions of economic policy and it's effects on society (corn
>laws in Britain, U.S. dairy trade regulations).
>I mentioned the lower level 'rescue' efforts as a side thought that
>evidently clouded my main point. Sorry. (Though the rescue stuff was
>interesting in itself.)
>
>But the systemic problems of imbalance of wealth/technology/etc. is
>what I was wondering about - how could the 3I *not* get involved in
>helping underdeveloped regions improve their tech/trade levels?
>
The Imperium is built on the cultural soveriegnty of worlds - in my book, the acceptance of this
principle was what enabled the Sylean Federation to morph into the Third Imperium (when the Vilani
agreed to the 'strategic partnership').
For the Imperium to re-engineer member worlds' culture and society by helping cure underdevelopment
would be in violation of this.
Plus, development costs a lot, and usually fails in the face of the deep-seated reasons for
underdevelopment (note how many of the world's great companies are not Brazillian, or Mexican, or
Russian).
Dulinor thought the Imperium could and should do this, so it is a thread in Imperial thought in the
1100s.
But it isnt the major thread.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:32:29 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
On 21 Feb 2001, at 16:05, Rob Davenport wrote:
> Would a better example than the U.S. be the British Empire at it's
> height in the age of sail (uh, *think* *think* *think*, mid- late-
> 1850s?). How long did it take to sail from Portsmouth to Botany Bay,
> for example? (he said, having just finished reading P.O'Brian's
> "Desolation Island".) Certainly less than the year or two I believe is
> quoted for Regina to Capital, but substantial nonetheless.
A better example might be Imperial Spain. Messages could take over a
year (up to two in some cases) to travel from Spain to the American
colonies.
>
> Rob D.
> --
> Rob
>
> More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
> Sic faciunt omnes. -- Everyone is doing it.
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:32:29 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]
On 22 Feb 2001, at 2:29, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> Here's an essay I wrote about it some years ago. Apologies to those of you who
> has already seen it (Actually, I've rewritten it, so there may be something
> new for you too)..
The sucking sound of the TML black hole of quality.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:32:29 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
On 21 Feb 2001, at 13:19, Stephen Tempest wrote:
> The French must also have had at least some idea of the concept,
> otherwise it would be expressed as "nobility obliges" rather than
> "noblesse oblige"...
It being in French was just an affectation of the English upper classes.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:32:29 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
On 22 Feb 2001, at 12:06, Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> Which was quite funny given that they first used flamethrowers (and poison
> gas, though the aliies were actually the first to manufacture it).
Ahh, but the conventions only covered "poison projectiles", so the first gas
attack involved lining up a whole load of chlorine cylinders, waiting for a
favourable wind and openning the taps. And this is why the Imperial Rules
of War are not written down.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 01:13:08 -0800
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
> As for Canada, I have previously stated my belief that her current
> culture is superior to that of the US. Perhaps they should start looking
> warily at their southern border.
>
>
> Larsen
>
We do.
Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor
Next year, at Burning Man!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 05:32:08 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Looking for a home
Hello Folks,
I've just started working on a map of the SPINWARD MARCHES using Campaign
Cartographer. What I've done is to place the stars in their correct hex
and all. Big deal right? <grin>. What I'm also doing is coloring in the
star to represent the star type. Green for F class stars, Red for M class
stars, Yellow for G class, Orange for K class.
Question: what colors would people suggest I use for A class - Light Blue?
Question: should I distinguish between Giant Class stars and main sequence
stars by making the circle larger for giant class?
Question: should I include symbols for binary and Trinary star systems?
Question: once I finish this map, who wants it for their web page?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 05:32:27 -0500
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium
>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:29:08 +0100
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]
>IMO whoever wrote the essay about nobles in _Library Data, (N-Z)_ made a
>mistake when he made the noble titles given out by the CGS into Imperial
>titles. In the original rules they were local (planetary) titles (There were
>two more levels abobe, prince and king, and these were used by actual rulers
>of worlds [Book 3, p. 22]).
It's not like you to quote out of context to make a point, Hans. The full
citation reads:
"Ranking above duke/duchess are two levels not reflected in social
standing: prince/princess or king/queen are titles used by actual rulers of
worlds. The title of emperor/empress is used by the ruler of an empire of
several worlds."
Book 3, p. 22 (1977)
In other words:
Social Title
(G) Prince/Princess or King/Queen
(H) Emperor/Empress
It is clear from context that this system was intended for what we would
now consider minor pocket empires, not the Third Imperium of the Official
Traveller Universe (which didn't exist at this point).
The revisions of 1981-2, including the article in Supp. 11, explicitly
change this picture:
"At the discretion of the referee, a noble may have some ancestral lands or
fiefs, and may actually have some ruling power."
Book 1, p. 9 (1981)
"The nobility includes within it a subset called the peerage, consisting of
all nobles except knights and banorets. Except in extraordinary situations,
to hold a high office in the Imperial bureaucracy, a person must be a peer
(though not all peers hold office)."
Supp. 11, p. 34 (1982)
"All nobility is part of the feudal system of the Imperial government."
Ibid.
It seems to me that the existance of ranks for achievement (which
"customarily carry no special reward beyond the noble title itself," ibid,
p. 35), service (including "political support in office, victory in the
military, contributions or economic assistance from the commercial sector,"
ibid.) and position ("occupying specific government offices," ibid.)
significantly dilute the power and prestige associated with hereditary or
governing noble titles, perhaps enough to justify the canonical treatment
of nobles. The kicker, and the clue that you are dealing with no ordinary
noble, is the suffix or fief used in the style of address.
>In addition to these rank nobles there are a an undefined number of honor
>barons and honor marquesses (but NOT counts and dukes). [_Imperial
>Encyclopedia_, p. 13].
Note that this is a later accretion: this distinction does not exist in
Supp. 11. In fact, the differences between the Supp. 11 and Imperial
Encyclopedia versions of nobility are quite interesting.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 05:40:27 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Unsubscribing now
Okay, guys - see you all sometime around the end of the year....
James
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 06:04:56 -0500
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: OT: Ahem...Third World Nations?
Excuuuse me, suh!
Ah must take umbrage at your comments concerning the Confederacy, suh! You
Yaunkees think ya'll are so entitled since you ahchieved that momentary and
fleeting victory ofah my dear beloved Dixie in the recent unpleasantness.
Ya'll are nuthin more than brigands an' carpetbaggahs, who simply can't
appreciate the culture that ya'll have tried to ovahrun with your Yahnkee
fishmongah's ways durin' the War of Northern Aggression. Well, suh, I think
it'll have to be pistols and mint juleps at dawn, suh, or I shall think you
a yellow Yahnkee dog, suh!
Sorry, born in Texas, currently living in West Virginia highlands. It's in
the soil or something...
ObTrav: Heck, I don't know... Rednecks in space? <reminds me of that skit
the Muppet show used to do all the time..."Pigs in Space." Same
difference...I live in a state where wearing orange camo and muck boots to a
formal occasion ISN'T a fashion mistake..>
Glenn, you just may have a point there...
Jeff
>Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:33:32 -0800 (PST)
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
<snip>
>Mexico is only one Third World nation, and Canada is not part of the Third
>World, but I believe that the Confederate States may fairly be considered
>independent Third World nations. The borders between the rest of the
>United States and Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri, Kentucky, Tennessee, West
>Virginia, and Virginia probably make up more than 3000km.
>- --Glenn
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:57:45 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for a home
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> What I'm also doing is coloring in the star to represent the star
> type. Green for F class stars, Red for M class stars, Yellow for G
> class, Orange for K class.
*Green* for F class??
How about a darkish yellow for G, and light yellow for F? Then A gets
white. Either of B or O get a voltage spike through the electron gun
to make an ultra-bright bluish spot in the phosphors (dunno how to
achieve a similar effect for LCD screens though) ;^)
> Question: should I distinguish between Giant Class stars and main sequence
> stars by making the circle larger for giant class?
Sounds like a good idea. Dwarf stars get a single pixel :)
> Question: should I include symbols for binary and Trinary star systems?
Possibly, though I think the complication isn't worth it. I doubt
there will be many habitable worlds orbiting close binaries, and for
distant binaries you just show the one that the main world orbits.
> Question: once I finish this map, who wants it for their web page?
Me! Except I don't have a Traveller web page yet. Oh well, I can
always start by putting up this map :)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:07:06 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: more sword stuff
On 21 Feb 2001, at 22:54, Mark Urbin wrote:
> Since this thread is up and running, here is some of my previous statements on
> the subject
>
> http://spacevermin.homepage.com/TRAV/TravSwords.html
>
> I know it was mentioned before, but it's worth repeating, Sir Richard
> Burton's book, "The Book of the Sword", first published in 1884 is a good
> reference.
It's a real pity he never finished it with the second volume. Thoughless of him
dying like that.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3726
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3727
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Traveller-digest Thursday, February 22 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3727
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: H2 vs H2O
Re: Looking for a home
Re: Civility and Politeness
TML Landgrab - Ficant site opens
Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]
Ine Givar (was Re: System defenses)
Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
Re: OT: Ahem...Third World Nations?
RE: Copyright
RE: What could go wrong?
RE: Don't run...
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: H2 vs H2O
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Looking for a home
WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law (Was Re: Copyright)
Standard Imperial Culture (or: nobles, rednecks, and bwaps, oh my!)
Re: Don't run...
Re: H2 vs H2O
NH4OH vs LH2
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:08:11 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
On 22 Feb 2001, at 15:00, Timothy Little wrote:
> Better than either is ammonia, at about 18% H2 by weight, with a
> density of 685 kg/m^3 at 220 K. Its boiling point is much higher than
> either CH4 or H2, so it is a lot easier to keep liquid.
It also has a tendency to eat things. Mind you the others blow up when miced
with air, so I'm not sure which is worst.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:12:22 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Looking for a home
On 22 Feb 2001, at 5:32, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Question: once I finish this map, who wants it for their web page?
Well, if neccessary, I'd be happy to host it on mine
(http://www.downport.com/amv/).
But I'd much rather encourage you to set up your own site (talk to the nice
people at downport, they provide a wonderful service). That way, you might
get all keen and add more stuff :*>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:20:39 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness
On 22 Feb 2001, at 17:31, Jeffrey Malone wrote:
> OBTrav - comparing the US (and Australian) pressure that has been bought to bear
> on NZ to upgrade its defence expenditure and capabilites, what would be the 3I's
> approach to defence expenditure in **client states** on its borders (e.g., in
> Foreven)?
If the client states are anything like NZ over the past couple of decades the
3I would have to pay for everything itself, or accept that its client states
were defenceless. :)
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:19:57 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: TML Landgrab - Ficant site opens
Well, I've finally got round to opening my Landgrab site. Its at
http://www.downport.com/amv/Library/Ficant.html. There's not much there
at the moment, but I'll add more as time permits.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:20:52 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium [long]
> From: Hal
> 3) What is the *need* for a Baron, Marquis, or Duke within a Local Power
> Structure? More specifically - you meantion that some nobles have more
> power than ancient emperors of Earth. As I see the bulk of your article
> - it would seem that the only *power* a Noble has is the power that the
> Imperial Emperor cedes to him from what was ceded by the world to the
> Imperium. Thus?
>
> Planet A agrees that it will not implement laws that violate the
> Imperial Statutes on trade, permit no legal slavery, etc... plus pay
taxes and
> provide men for the draft.
>
> Based on planet A's concessions, what would a Baron of said planet A have
> in the way of power?
My model isn't quite the same as Hans', but I would say: whatever power
they hold as Hereditary President, High Priest and Grand Poobah of the
Republic of A. Their Baronial title is a consequence of that, and in fact
was probably originally granted to whichever of their ancestors signed the
agreement that incorporated Planet A into the Imperium. The title was
bestowed by the Emperor for "Services Rendered", but these "Services" were
the use of their local power base in the interests of the Imperium. Any
power derived from the imperial title is secondary in importance.
Alternatively, there maybe more than one Baron on a particular world, with
none of them holding any governing authority. These are basically honour
nobles, but they are usually going to be members of the local
establishment, or will become such after receiving their titles. They may
also have the ear of the local heads of the Imperial services and
ministries, and perhaps of the Subsector Duke. So their formal power is
non-existent, and their informal power may be quite significant.
Another case may be that your imperial noble may also be the local head of
the Imperial ministries (but probably not services). That is, they may
control the local assets of the Ministry of Justice, Ministry of Finance,
and so on. They wouldn't usually control the local assets of the Navy,
Army, Marines or Scouts.
Or failing that, their power base may simply be based on being the
Subsector manager for Ling Standard Products. That's quite a bit more
power than any terrestrial Emperor...
I see a lot of the lower titles (Baron and Knight) being handed out as
honours for any prominent or distinguished local citizens. This is the
equivalent of the Knighthoods, OBEs and other honours that are still handed
out in some British Commonwealth nations. Australia has replaced them with
the Order of Australia, and similar bits of fluff. These honours carry no
power at all, (nor are fiefs associated with them!), but people still have
been known to do "favours" to get hold of them.
One very relevant example is that the Governor-General of Papua New Guinea
usually receives a knighthood when appointed to that position.
In the Imperial case, these titles often come with fiefs, so are more
important. Basically, they are rewards for doing stuff that is good for
the Imperium. They also help create a layer of people who will continue
doing stuff that is good for the Imperium, and bind local elites to the
Imperium. On the other hand, they give status within the Imperium, and
allow title holders access to the real heavyweights of the Imperium.
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:47:49 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Ine Givar (was Re: System defenses)
> From: Hal
> GM: You are a local Cell within the Imperium, dedicated to the overthrow
> of the Imperial structure. What are your plans?
Player : <chuckles> Well, first we need to write a program...
> It would be interesting to see just how effective the Ine Givar could
> be, especially if they started getting their hands on weapons of mass
> destruction - bioweapons as it were? Imagine, what would happen if the
> Ine Givar were to target, not the people themselves, but the plants of a
> single world? They create a carrier such as perhaps a honey bee. It
> pollenates plants left and right, and then - a year later, the plant
> disease starts striking.
Except that all of this is totally counterproductive. The IG needs to win
popular support if it is going to win, and this isn't the way to go about
it.
One of the good ideas introduced in T4 were the political tasks, where the
goal was to create a social impact. An Ine Givar game would need to focus
heavily on these.
In fact, I actually do have a "good guy" Ine Givar faction. It doesn't
rely on guerrilla warfare to achieve its goals (usually), but tends to
focus on mass organisation. It places particular emphasis on
"pansophontism" - equal rights for non-humans, and getting stuck into
idiots like Superioriti.
Of course, when it is necessary, they will provide material and military
support to local insurrections, or even launch them themselves... They
don't play the fool with weapons of mass destruction, though.
I usually call it the Regina Regional Committee of the Ine Givar
(Solidariti). This name is actually incorrect. Solidariti is the name of
its main legal front group - a mass sophont rights organisation/political
party. The underground organisation is the majority faction of what was
the old Ine Givar organisation on Regina and neighbouring worlds. It is
led by (the majority faction of) the Committee previously responsible for
leading the IG organisation in this area.
There are other factions, at least some of which have "Regina Regional
Committees" of their own and also claim to be the Ine Givar. Hence I stick
(Solidariti) on the end of the name, to show which faction I am referring
to. Other factions might be the Ine Givar (Peoples' War) or Ine Givar
(Unity) or whatever, depending on what their main unifying point of dogma
is.
I lifted this style of nomenclature from various leftist organisations in
the Philippines and India. They've had a lot of splits in the last few
decades that have created a swarm of funkily named outfits, some of which
are quite sane, and others of which are very very mad and bad. In short,
they are a perfect model for the IG.
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:39:56 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
On 12 Feb 2001, at 11:51, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> The Traveller Website Review
I hate to be a pain, but are there going to be any more of these? I was
really enjoying them and finding them useful.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:54:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: Ahem...Third World Nations?
On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Greenly, Jeff wrote:
> Excuuuse me, suh!
>
> Ah must take umbrage at your comments concerning the Confederacy, suh! You
> Yaunkees think ya'll are so entitled since you ahchieved that momentary and
> fleeting victory ofah my dear beloved Dixie in the recent unpleasantness.
> Ya'll are nuthin more than brigands an' carpetbaggahs, who simply can't
> appreciate the culture that ya'll have tried to ovahrun with your Yahnkee
> fishmongah's ways durin' the War of Northern Aggression. Well, suh, I think
> it'll have to be pistols and mint juleps at dawn, suh, or I shall think you
> a yellow Yahnkee dog, suh!
Which reminds me: has everyone here read The Guns of the South? I just
finished it last week. Highly recommended.
> ObTrav: Heck, I don't know... Rednecks in space? <reminds me of that skit
> the Muppet show used to do all the time..."Pigs in Space." Same
> difference...I live in a state where wearing orange camo and muck boots to a
> formal occasion ISN'T a fashion mistake..>
A planet or group of planets tries to leave the Imperium.
Greg Kettler
"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you
may not actually need an explicit loop exit. The loop will be terminated
automatically at the appropriate moment."
-Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:35:41 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Copyright
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Paul Künnap
> Sent: 21 February 2001 09:14
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Copyright
>
> > Gentlemen,
> > One of the posts in the Imperial legal frameworks
> > thread mentioned copyright laws, specifically the
> > fact that most nations ignore US statutes
>
> > Could one of the TML Legal Dream Team address
[snip]
>
> Most of the time your explanation for ignoring is correct,
[snip]
>
The statutes are ignored, but that does not mean the copyright is - it
is a tricky area. In the US, an author needs to _claim_ copyright and
some of the claims are dubious (some very much so). In the rest of the
world, copyright is considered to be _inherent_ in an "original work".
So, claimed copyrights in the US are ignored outside _but_ they still
attract copyright outside the US under national laws and the
international treaty.
Effectively, that means that while the US statutes are ignored, the US
copyright is matched (and often bettered) by the international and
national copyright protection. The tricky bit comes in the "original
work" and a good example is that the phrase "Dungeons and Dragons"
(for example) is copyrighted in the US but _not_ in Europe, because it
is not considered sufficient to be an "original work". It is, however,
accepted as a trademark in Europe.
There are other tricky areas and these are covered by some of the
excellent links provided in another answer - one of the biggest is
"implicit permissions" to copy work. Most national laws, and the
international treaty, are not really up to scratch when dealing with
electronic media, which are considered by some case law to include
"implicit permissions" to copy. It has been dealt with in Europe by
the newer legislation covering copying electronic media and especially
databases and is being very closely looked at in the proposed changes
to the EU regulations.
Look at it this way. If you publish in the US, you can't sue anyone
under US law (well, some you can) outside the US for copying your
work. On the other hand, you _can_ sue them under the treaty and under
local laws. Even better, if you publish something in the US and have
problems claiming copyright, you may still be covered _outside_ the US
since the copyright depends on the _work_, not the claim.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:54:33 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: RE: What could go wrong?
On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:52:27 -0600 hensley.cr@gte.net (Charles R Hensley)
wrote:
>William wrote:
>
>>A distinctive rattle/squeak in the Air ventilation system. this could
>be
>>caused by the bearings on a fan to be going out or a fan blade to be
>>slightly bent.
>
>Better yet, the noise is heard from the ventilation system, but cannot
>be located because it is not coming from any ventilation equipment. It
>is being transmitted through a mechanical connection to the ventialtion
>system in a inaccessable location and is amplified and echoed by the
>ductwork material and configuration. The faulty part sounds very
>different in the room it is in.
>
>This should drive the party nuts trying to find the cause.
>
>Charles H
>
>P.S. Repair solution: repair the malfunctioning part of the different
>system, add more supports and tiedowns to the ventilation ducts.
Gee! WHY does that sound so realistic, with a detailed repair diagnosis? Must
have driven you NUTS 'till you found it, Charles...
Bruce Johnson
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:00:22 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: RE: Don't run...
At 06:27 PM 02/22/2001 +1300, you wrote:
>Tod Glenn wrote :
>
> > Frequently an army sniper, equiped with a M21 with
> > STANO sight and sionics supressor was dropped, with his
> ^^^^^^
> > team, into a target rich environment just as night fell.
>
>An interesting misprint in the context of the TML...
Not a misprint. Sionics was (is still?) a producer of suppressors for weapons.
Kurt Feltenberger
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
~Stephen Decatur
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:18:44 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> As for Canada, I have previously stated my belief that her current
> culture is superior to that of the US. Perhaps they should start looking
> warily at their southern border.
Here's a tip: the only way to become better at anything is to remove
your notions of what constitutes better or worse. Ask any Canadian
if they think US culture is superior - they'll say no. But if you
ask if Canadian culture is therefore superior, you'll get an even
stronger no. :)
We don't really care about being better, we just want you to realize
that we're not a bunch of igloo-dwelling hockey players, you grits-eating,
squirrel-trapping, bucktoothed hillbillies. (Re: Molson Canadian
commercials, http://www.adcritic.com/content/molson-canadian-i-am.html
and http://www.adcritic.com/content/edge-102-i-am-not.html)
(That's a joke son, I say, a joke!)
Ethan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:37:28 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
Richard:
Density of liquid methane is 424 kg /m^3.
1000kg / 424kg / m^3 = 2.36 m^3
H in CH4
4 H, 12 C
2.36 m^3 / 0.25 = 9.43 m^3 (CH4)
H2O = 9.0 m^3
Slightly less than H2O
John W. Fox
> >
>
> Methane should work even better.
>
> Four tons (by weight) of methane should give you one ton (by weight) of
> hydrogen. Don't know the density off the top of my head though.
>
> Richard Wilson
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:44:36 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
>We don't really care about being better, we just want you to realize
>that we're not a bunch of igloo-dwelling hockey players
Yes, we're much too busy fighting off the polar bears to play hockey.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:53:08 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for a home
on 2/22/01 5:32 AM, hal@buffnet.net at hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Hello Folks,
> I've just started working on a map of the SPINWARD MARCHES using Campaign
> Cartographer. What I've done is to place the stars in their correct hex
> and all. Big deal right? <grin>. What I'm also doing is coloring in the
> star to represent the star type. Green for F class stars, Red for M class
> stars, Yellow for G class, Orange for K class.
>
> Question: what colors would people suggest I use for A class - Light Blue?
>
> Question: should I distinguish between Giant Class stars and main sequence
> stars by making the circle larger for giant class?
>
> Question: should I include symbols for binary and Trinary star systems?
>
> Question: once I finish this map, who wants it for their web page?
>
> Hal
>
I would be glad to host it at http://www.spinwardmarches.com
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:57:12 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law (Was Re: Copyright)
STOP RIGHT THERE!
Mark Preston wrote:
> The tricky bit comes in the "original
> work" and a good example is that the phrase "Dungeons and Dragons"
> (for example) is copyrighted in the US but _not_ in Europe, because it
> is not considered sufficient to be an "original work".
NOT copyrighted in the US. Not not not not not.
I'm sorry but you are absolutely incorrect on this issue.
"Dungeons & Dragons" is a *registered trademark* in the US.
Mess with it and you will suffer - and you'll pay Hasbro their
attorney's fees and quite possible *triple* damages!
Though you appear to understand the basic disctinctions between
copyright and trademark law, you have confused them.
I suggest extreme caution to the reader. Read about
copyright and trademark law for yourself.
http://www.loc.gov/copyright/
http://www.uspto.gov
> Look at it this way. If you publish in the US, you can't sue anyone
> under US law (well, some you can) outside the US for copying your
> work.
You could sue anyone amenable to jurisdiction in the US.
If they conduct any commerce here, you can get them.
bloo
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer, and before you accept
as fact anything anyone says, go look it up for yourself.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:57:14 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Standard Imperial Culture (or: nobles, rednecks, and bwaps, oh my!)
Following the threads about nobility, rednecks, dark ages/Long Night
and the latinization or Roman provinces, and others, a question has
come to mind that's been congealing for a while.
In the CT era that I'm much more familiar with than the others, the
adventures and background I've read seem to assume/imply a standard
culture that exists on most imperial worlds - similar language,
technology, entertainment, etc. Sure, some worlds have different
government types and law levels, but the culture doesn't seem that much
different. And some described worlds vary from this, but they seemed
to be on the fringe. So:
Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it?
IYTU?
Is the starport the usual only haven of "imperial culture" on worlds
and once outside the XT line it's a completely different environment?
Or are the worlds being inculcated with the Imperial culture, brought
on by the nobility, the media, the megacorporations, the x-boats,etc.?
What are the core worlds like? The ones that have been "imperial" for
hundreds if not a thousand years? Are they something like cities in
the U.S. where there's a McDonald's on every block (i.e. tending
towards a bland, homogeneous, commercial culture backed by the
commercial interests of the megacorps)? Would they compare to the
cities in Italy beyond Rome but still part of the Roman Empire? (Or
other expansive empire.)
Does this extend to all imperial worlds? Eventually?
Are the fringe worlds, the un[der]developed backwaters throughout the
Imperium, more at variance with the standard culture?
On the mainstream worlds, the 10% of worlds with 90% of the population,
is the culture that standard?
The thread about nobles mention they may just ambassadors (in effect)
implies (to me) the local world may have a radically different culture
than the 'standard imperial one'.
I'd think the Imperial nobility would have an interest in preserving if
not promulgating their culture to maintain the status quo or increase
their own power. The X-boat system would bring news, entertainment,
knowledge, research developments, etc. from the far corners of the
Imperium to all, aiding the development of a standard culture.
The megacorps would have an interest in standardization (as the
Imperium does in it's procurement policies), too.
What other aspects of culture would be spread and how?
- ---
But then you have the stated imperial policy of not interfering with
worlds internal affairs, which would lead me to believe that cultures
would diversify over the parsecs and years (or at least be able to).
I've seen a picture on a website somewhere detailing the different
"cultural regions of the Imperium"[1]. If there are different cultural
regions are they described somewhere? I think it would be very
interesting to have a general idea of these regions. I envision a
comparison to the U.S.'s regions of the "South", "Northwest",
"Midwest", Southern California, Pacific Northwest, and their cultures
(to name a few generalized ones) - it would useful to know what region
a PC or NPC is from to give some general background and expectations.
(Though, given the scale of the Imperium, meeting too many people from
different regions might not be that likely.)
The JTAS article "I'm from Kamsii" is a very good one (to me) in giving
the player or ref a feel for a character based on where he comes from.
I envision the cultural regions as being more generalized versions of
this, varying for those worlds that are outside the "standard culture"
and the "regional culture" (hmm, kind of like the division of navies -
Imperial, subsector, planetary, in HG.)
And, after reading a discussion about the pros and cons of detailing
sectors officially (as in BtC vs. Rim of Fire), I don't think such
detailing of the Imperial cultural regions would hamper a ref
in developing his TU, but give better overall ideas to draw from.
(Well, for me it would help.)
(OK, so there ended up being 14 actual questions, but I guess all but
the first are somewhat rhetorical.)
Rob
[1] Does anyone know where this map is from, so that I might begin
reading more original source materials and bring my Traveller knowledge
up to par (and stop possibly bothering the list with inappropriate
questions as is my apprehension)? :)
[2] I don't know much about bwaps, but it's the only name that came to
mind for the subject line, so I used it. :)
- --
Rob
Contrary to popular belief, Unix is user friendly.
It just happens to be selective about who it makes friends with.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:02:16 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Don't run...
on 2/22/01 7:00 AM, Kurt Feltenberger at kurt@blazenet.net wrote:
> At 06:27 PM 02/22/2001 +1300, you wrote:
>> Tod Glenn wrote :
>>
>>> Frequently an army sniper, equiped with a M21 with
>>> STANO sight and sionics supressor was dropped, with his
>> ^^^^^^
>>> team, into a target rich environment just as night fell.
>>
>> An interesting misprint in the context of the TML...
>
> Not a misprint. Sionics was (is still?) a producer of suppressors for
> weapons.
>
> Kurt Feltenberger
Sionics is long gone. It folded with the death of founder Mitch WerBell,
IIRC. While their designs worked, there new generation of suppressors are
far more efficient. Check out offerings by AWC <http://www.awcsystech.com>
and Gemtech<http://www.gem-tech.com>, to name a couple.
A must read for suppressor buff is Alan Paulson's "Silencer: History and
performance". For more detail on suppressor theory, check out the Frankford
Arsenal publication "Silencers, principles and evaluations" Report R-1896.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:19:37 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
Doug:
The volume of one ton of H2 is 13.5 m^3.
The volume of H2O required for one ton oh H2 is 9 m^3
You have 4.5 m^3 less volume required.
Weight is another thing!
John W. Fox
>
>
> Maybe I'm missing something... (I frequently do...)
>
> Fuel is LHyd...
> Water is H2O...
> Ignoring atomic wieghts/volumes (of which i know less than nothing)
> If water is 2 Hyd atoms and 1 Oxy atom
> Then 1 dTon of water has to conain less Hyd than 1 dTon of LHyd, right?
> So where is the efficiency, or practicality of storing fuel in unrefined
> form?
> Someone please explain (in easy to understand words and phrases :-) what
> I'm missing
> Thanks,
> Doug
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:32:01 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
Subject: NH4OH vs LH2
Hello Everyone:
did some quick calculations on NH4OH
Denisty 0.90g/ml (900kg/m^3)
1 ton = 1.11m^3
5H, 14 N, 16 O 5/35 = 1/7
1.11 / 1/7 = 7.77 m^3 ton of H
Liquid H = 13.5 m^3 / ton
Ratio 13.5 / 7.77 = 1.74
What this means is a ship using NH4OH would be able to do a jump 3 using NH$oH
rather than jump 2 with LH
John
>
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> > Methane, ammonia, and water all work out pretty similar in volume per unit
> > hydrogen stored. For various reasons I suspect methane and water would be
> > the preferred form; if you assume that (a) the jump drive has to work off
> > of preprocessed fuel, and (b) dumping stuff out of the airlock in J-space
> > is not generally a good idea, the preference is to carry a supply of
> > processable fuel, which will be processed into raw hydrogen in J-space, and
> > the waste materials stored.
>
> >Of 'waste materials', the easiest to deal with would probably be CO2.
>
> If you have the facilities to deal with LH2, liquefying an N2/O2 mix
> should be child's play. The big advantage is that you can just feed
> some of it into the ship's air supply instead of cracking CO2 :)
>
> A suitable unrefined fuel producing an N2/O2 mix would be a solution
> of ammonia in water (ammonium hydroxide).
>
> Ammonium hydroxide solution is actually denser in hydrogen than NH3
> and H2O separately, easy to obtain from natural sources, and isn't
> hard to store. The "waste" from 1 ton of such a solution would
> provide at least a person-week of breathing air as a waste-product.
>
> So any jump-capable ship can do without CO2 recycling for months, it
> just needs to be able to remove CO2 from the air -- a much easier
> task. With a little distillation you can do without water recycling
> too, by removing the ammonia from some of the unrefined fuel. All you
> need is food.
>
>
> - Tim
>
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3727
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3728
Date: | 2/22/01 10:54:01 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Thursday, February 22 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3728
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Don't run...
Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
Suppressors...
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Suppressors...
Re: Looking for a home
RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace
Re: H2 vs H2O
Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"
Re: Nobles and the Imperium
Re: Suppressors...
Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"
Re: Nobles and the Imperium
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Looking for a home
Re: Looking for a home
Deneb sector?
Groggy and wondering...
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Nobles and the Imperium
OT: Ahem...Third World Nations?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:33:13 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Don't run...
At 08:02 AM 02/22/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>on 2/22/01 7:00 AM, Kurt Feltenberger at kurt@blazenet.net wrote:
>
> > At 06:27 PM 02/22/2001 +1300, you wrote:
> >> Tod Glenn wrote :
> >>
> >>> Frequently an army sniper, equiped with a M21 with
> >>> STANO sight and sionics supressor was dropped, with his
> >> ^^^^^^
> >>> team, into a target rich environment just as night fell.
> >>
> >> An interesting misprint in the context of the TML...
> >
> > Not a misprint. Sionics was (is still?) a producer of suppressors for
> > weapons.
> >
> > Kurt Feltenberger
>
>Sionics is long gone. It folded with the death of founder Mitch WerBell,
>IIRC. While their designs worked, there new generation of suppressors are
>far more efficient. Check out offerings by AWC <http://www.awcsystech.com>
>and Gemtech<http://www.gem-tech.com>, to name a couple.
And Tac-Ord as well. These three companies are on my short list when I
apply for the stamp to get a 'can for my M-4gery. Dunno what I'd need it
for, but I've always wanted one!
Kurt Feltenberger
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
~Stephen Decatur
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 07:22:17
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
At 01:39 AM 2/23/2001 +1300, you wrote:
>On 12 Feb 2001, at 11:51, Trevor, Peter wrote:
>
>> The Traveller Website Review
>
>I hate to be a pain, but are there going to be any more of these? I was
>really enjoying them and finding them useful.
well, if there are going to be more, I'd like to ask that people hold off
on reviewing Sylea Downport.
We've just ordered the Shiny New Computer(tm), and once that is running, I
am planning on a serious facelift for the site.
866Mhz Pentium III, 256Meg of Memory, 20 Gig HD, two CD bays, one 48x
standard, one write-to drive.. man, I'm in Nerdvana!
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies. On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets.
- Rich Clancey
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 08:53:24 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Suppressors...
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>Sionics is long gone. It folded with the death of founder Mitch WerBell,
>IIRC. While their designs worked, there new generation of suppressors are
>far more efficient. Check out offerings by AWC <http://www.awcsystech.com>
>and Gemtech<http://www.gem-tech.com>, to name a couple.
I have an AWC Tac-9 can for my MP-5 and I regret buying it. I *really*
wish I had one of Phil Dater's (Gemtech) Raptors. Those things are about
as quiet as a mouse fart. :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:01:37
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
At 10:44 AM 2/22/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>>We don't really care about being better, we just want you to realize
>>that we're not a bunch of igloo-dwelling hockey players
>
>Yes, we're much too busy fighting off the polar bears to play hockey.
Which is why Lord Stanley's Cup has taken up permanent residence in the US!
This is our revenge for Toronto winning the World Series. The name is a
joke! It's our Series! Never again shall we let the Canadian Menace sully
the hallowed ground of the Fall Classic!
Oh, BTW.. Kiri? Baseball Season is starting. :)
- --
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
- -Chicago reader, 10/15/82
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:04:55 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
> 866Mhz Pentium III, 256Meg of Memory, 20 Gig HD, two CD bays, one 48x
> standard, one write-to drive.. man, I'm in Nerdvana!
> --
Hey Doug, better up that memory now. We're paying $106 for 256 Meg DIMMs.
I've never seen prices so low. Unfortunately, Sun memory continues to be
ridiculously high, so no upgrades to my site in the near future.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:12:37 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
>Baseball Season is starting. :)
And there was much rejoicing throughout the land. Though I'm still not sure
how I'm supposed to go to the "home opener" this year when the Blue Jays are
playing it in Puerto Rico. I had a sick day saved up and everything!
ObTrav: Errr...errrrrr...oh, never mind.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:15:54 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Suppressors...
At 08:53 AM 02/22/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
>>Sionics is long gone. It folded with the death of founder Mitch WerBell,
>>IIRC. While their designs worked, there new generation of suppressors are
>>far more efficient. Check out offerings by AWC <http://www.awcsystech.com>
>>and Gemtech<http://www.gem-tech.com>, to name a couple.
>
>I have an AWC Tac-9 can for my MP-5 and I regret buying it. I *really*
>wish I had one of Phil Dater's (Gemtech) Raptors. Those things are about
>as quiet as a mouse fart. :^)
I've read a lot of good things about Gemtech, and had quite a few owners
recommend his work. I want to keep a functional flash suppressor on the
rifle for when the suppressor is removed, and IIRC one of the companies
uses a bare muzzle.
Kurt Feltenberger
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
~Stephen Decatur
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:19:44 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Looking for a home
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Question: should I distinguish between Giant Class stars and main
> sequence stars by making the circle larger for giant class?
Absolutely.
> Question: should I include symbols for binary and Trinary star
> systems?
That would be nice. One relatively simple way of doing it is using
overlapping circles (with the primary being the topmost circle). Let me
show you what I mean (using ASCII squares). A is the primary star, B is
the secondary.
+-----+
| B |
+-----+ |
| | |
| A |--+
| |
+-----+
A trinary system would have yet another circle. It probably looks best
if the tertiary star is pushed back sideways a bit, like this:
+-----+
| +-----+
+-----+ |
| | |
| | |
| |--+
+-----+
> Question: once I finish this map, who wants it for their web page?
Spinwardmarches and Downport have both been suggested. Go with both.
That would reduce downtime... *drool*
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:26:16 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> On 12 Feb 2001, at 11:51, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> > The Traveller Website Review
>
> I hate to be a pain, but are there going to be any more of
> these? I was really enjoying them and finding them useful.
Well, if you really want me to then I suppose I must. (It'll
have to wait until I get home, no web access at work.)
Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> well, if there are going to be more, I'd like to ask that people
> hold off on reviewing Sylea Downport.
Rats! That *was* the next site on my list to do.
> We've just ordered the Shiny New Computer(tm), and once that is
> running, I am planning on a serious facelift for the site.
>
> 866Mhz Pentium III, 256Meg of Memory, 20 Gig HD, two CD bays,
> one 48x standard, one write-to drive.. man, I'm in Nerdvana!
<Envy> I'm still stuck on a 200Mhz Pentium MMX with 64Meg of
momory. However, I do have a 30Gig HD, a 12Gig HD, an 8Gig HD,
two 2Gig HDs, a 1Gig HD, a 1Gig Jazz drive (with 9 disks), a DVD-
ROM drive, a CD burner, a Zip drive, 3.5" *and* 5.25" floppy
drives, the system box is so big it has its own caster wheels,
and the 21" monitor chucks out enough heat to warm my flat in the
winter months ... but it still only pootles along at 200Mhz.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:30:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
Timothy Little writes:
> If you have the facilities to deal with LH2, liquefying an N2/O2 mix
> should be child's play. The big advantage is that you can just feed
> some of it into the ship's air supply instead of cracking CO2 :)
Well, there's sort of a scale difference there. The side effects from one
dton of ammonium hydroxide cracked for hydrogen would be a couple hundred
dtons of air at STP. You're going to have to store it in some compressed
form or another.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:30:51 GMT
From: "John G. Wood" <elvwood@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"
> I was lucky enough to meet John and his lovely bride when they came to see
> the United States some time back (Danie says Hi John and Alison!). In any
> event, he was kind enough to bring with him, a recent copy of En Guarde...
<Waves>
8-)
John
http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:31:09 GMT
From: "John G. Wood" <elvwood@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium
Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net> wrote:
> One of the things I found about Nobles that I liked was in Pocket
> Empires. The breakdown of duties based on age:
> "Age 1 to 20 Childhood
> Age 20 to 40 Learning
> Age 40 to 60 Ruling
> Age 60 to 80 Advising"
This is probably based on generation analysis, described in the book
Generations by Strauss and Howe. There was also an article on it in Dragon
#241, which gives *almost* as much detail as I want for RPGs. I find it
thought-provoking when detailing world histories on the scale of a century
or two. Thought you might be interested.
I've snipped your ideas on applying this to nobles, but they have gone
into my file for closer study in the future. Thanks!
John
http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 09:42:45 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Suppressors...
> I've read a lot of good things about Gemtech, and had quite a few owners
> recommend his work. I want to keep a functional flash suppressor on the
> rifle for when the suppressor is removed, and IIRC one of the companies
> uses a bare muzzle.
>
You want the the Gemtech, then. The M4-96D attaches to the flash hider.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:59:58 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: En Garde or "Who's got the rules"
At 05:30 PM 02/22/2001 GMT, you wrote:
>> I was lucky enough to meet John and his lovely bride when they came to see
>> the United States some time back (Danie says Hi John and Alison!). In any
>> event, he was kind enough to bring with him, a recent copy of En Guarde...
>
><Waves>
>
>8-)
Hi John - About time you woke up <wink>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:01:22 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium
Christopher Thrash writes:
>>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>IMO whoever wrote the essay about nobles in _Library Data, (N-Z)_ made a
>>mistake when he made the noble titles given out by the CGS into Imperial
>>titles. In the original rules they were local (planetary) titles (There were
>>two more levels above, prince and king, and these were used by actual rulers
>>of worlds [Book 3, p. 22]).
>
>It's not like you to quote out of context to make a point, Hans.
Not knowingly, no. And I don't think I did.
>The full citation reads:
>
>"Ranking above duke/duchess are two levels not reflected in social
>standing: prince/princess or king/queen are titles used by actual rulers of
>worlds. The title of emperor/empress is used by the ruler of an empire of
>several worlds."
>
>Book 3, p. 22 (1977)
>
>In other words:
>
>Social Title
>(G) Prince/Princess or King/Queen
>(H) Emperor/Empress
>
>It is clear from context that this system was intended for what we would
>now consider minor pocket empires, not the Third Imperium of the Official
>Traveller Universe (which didn't exist at this point).
What is clear is that social level A-F were planetary titles. The Duke of Alpha
Continent, not the Duke of Regina.
>The revisions of 1981-2, including the article in Supp. 11, explicitly
>change this picture:
It changed it all right (which is what I said in the first place), but it
didn't consider the consequences of the change. I don't know how to put more
clearly than I already did: By changing social level A-F from planetary to
interstellar nobility, the social level system lost an entire slice of society.
And IMO a very important slice, as witness the fact that for almost 20 years
Traveller authors have described and used Imperial nobles as having powers more
or less equivalent to their 17th or 18th Century European namesakes.
>"At the discretion of the referee, a noble may have some ancestral lands or
>fiefs, and may actually have some ruling power."
>
>Book 1, p. 9 (1981)
>
>"The nobility includes within it a subset called the peerage, consisting of
>all nobles except knights and banorets. Except in extraordinary situations,
>to hold a high office in the Imperial bureaucracy, a person must be a peer
>(though not all peers hold office)."
>
>Supp. 11, p. 34 (1982)
>
>"All nobility is part of the feudal system of the Imperial government."
>
>Ibid.
All this is exactly what I said in the first place. That essay changed things.
>It seems to me that the existance of ranks for achievement (which
>"customarily carry no special reward beyond the noble title itself," ibid,
>p. 35), service (including "political support in office, victory in the
>military, contributions or economic assistance from the commercial sector,"
>ibid.) and position ("occupying specific government offices," ibid.)
>significantly dilute the power and prestige associated with hereditary or
>governing noble titles, perhaps enough to justify the canonical treatment
>of nobles.
I disagree, obviously. And even if you are right, it still doesn't alter the
fact that there is no room for planetary nobles in the rank ladder, something
which I maintain is a major flaw. I'll back down a step or two and admit that
Imperial barons may well be less powerful than planetary rulers. After all, the
Imperial noble that 'correspond' to a planetary ruler is a marquis. But even so
an Imperial baron would be the social equal of a minor head of state, not a
baron.
>The kicker, and the clue that you are dealing with no ordinary
>noble, is the suffix or fief used in the style of address.
Yes, but Traveller does not _treat_ them as extraordinary nobles. The CGS hands
out noble titles to every Tom, Dick, and Horatio in the navy with a little dice
luck and to several other careers too. Imperial nobles bum around the universe
with not a care in the world and often no money either.
>>In addition to these rank nobles there are a an undefined number of honor
>>barons and honor marquesses (but NOT counts and dukes). [_Imperial
>>Encyclopedia_, p. 13].
>
>Note that this is a later accretion: this distinction does not exist in
>Supp. 11.
But I still consider it canon. Admittedly canon that is in conflict with other
parts of canon (that is, the CGS) and so subject to revision. The only problem
is that in this particular case I consider the early canon to be the flawed
version.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:01:15 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
"Oh, BTW.. Kiri? Baseball Season is starting. :)"
Ahhh... A sunny day in the bleachers. Two dogs with 'slaw and a cold
beer. Peanuts. Keeping your own box score on the program. The organ
playing "Charge" when there's a man on second and another at bat.
Rally caps. Cheese in the kitchen and a yakker for a kudo. Chin music. A
ball hit so far there "shoulda been a stewardess on it". The Olde Towne
Team taking their usual September swoon. 1918 and counting...
One reason I want to see the National Space Plane project to succeed, a
real World Series! Just imagine a Carribean League, a North American
League, and an Asian League all playing in a REAL Series. Ohhhhh
babeeeeee....... (I'm taking bets on the Carribean League!)
ObTrav: Are there any sports that might have a subsector, sector, or
even (gulp) Imperium wide following? DGP mentions that football (soccer) is
still played on Terra; the Imperial Marines play a All Star team for charity
annually. There's a rather violent sport in the RC according to T:NE
(sorry, the name escapes me). Any ideas for Vilani sports? Spreadsheet
racing?
Larsen
(Pedro and Nomar and Manny, oh my!)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:14:23 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Looking for a home
Hello Folks,
> +-----+
> | B |
> +-----+ |
> | | |
> | A |--+
> | |
> +-----+
Looks like a good approach. I suspect I might make the trinary star stick
out a bit rather than have three overlapping each other at a central point.
> +-----+
> | +-----+
> +-----+ |
> | | |
> | | |
> | |--+
> +-----+
It would be something like: SS S
>> Question: once I finish this map, who wants it for their web page?
>
>Spinwardmarches and Downport have both been suggested. Go with both.
>That would reduce downtime... *drool*
Sounds like a plan then. How do I submit to Downport?
In the works:
The starmap is just the "basic" map - the next stage will be to generate
a new "X-Boat" routing system that uses nothing *but* Jump-3, Jump-4, and
perhaps Jump-6 Ships. The idea here will be to create a basic Map that
permits me to modify it in later map productions without having to
duplicate the work.
In any event, the new X-boat map will have a code in each hex
representing how long it takes for a message to originate at the coreward
side of the spinward to the last planet on the list.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:12:55 GMT
From: "John G. Wood" <elvwood@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Looking for a home
Hi Hal,
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> I've just started working on a map of the SPINWARD MARCHES using Campaign
> Cartographer. What I've done is to place the stars in their correct hex
> and all. Big deal right? <grin>.
You *do* know about my utility Gal2CC, right? Which generates Campaign
Cartographer maps of sectors and/or subsectors from Galactic data? IMNSHO the
results are close to the quality of published sector maps, and I can whip up
a SM map in a few minutes. You can download it from
http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/Supplement12.html
or I can send you a predone SM map if you prefer.
> What I'm also doing is coloring in the star to represent the star type.
Now, *that* you'd be on your own for. But one of my maps would give you a
good starting point.
> Question: once I finish this map, who wants it for their web page?
I expect you'll get lots of offers, but I'd be happy to host it if not.
John
http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:30:23 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Deneb sector?
Hello Folks,
Has there ever been an official output of the Deneb Sector? If so, where
can I get my hands on the data?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:31:39 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Groggy and wondering...
Hello Folks,
After dealing with a minor emergency related to my daughter, I'm still
groggy from lack of sleep. (that was an excuse for asking for what follows)
Where in tarnation is the Jump Masking Data?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:40:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>On 21 Feb 2001, at 13:19, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>
>> The French must also have had at least some idea of the concept,
>> otherwise it would be expressed as "nobility obliges" rather than
>> "noblesse oblige"...
>
>It being in French was just an affectation of the English upper classes.
Remember that the English upper classes came from France -- Norman
Conquest, 1066, and all that. (Well, actually, they came from Scandinavia
by way of a long stopover in Normandy where they learned French, became
Christians, and stopped doing the bloody eagle.) Anyway, the English
upper classes spoke and wrote in French until about Elizabethan times.
Some of them still do, I understand.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:44:35 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
< very big snip of material from Mssrs. Thrash and Rancke-Madsen>
"Yes, but Traveller does not _treat_ them as extraordinary nobles. The
CGS hands out noble titles to every Tom, Dick, and Horatio in the navy with
a little dice luck and to several other careers too. Imperial nobles bum
around the universe with not a care in the world and often no money either."
Mr. Rancke-Madsen,
I read your article on the Imperial nobility with great interest. You
made several points that I hadn't considered before.
With regards to the "no responsibilities and no money" nobility
mentioned above, might I suggest a solution? I've always handled such PCs
and NPCs as either non-inheriting children and grandchildren or as holders
planetary titles with no corresponding Imperial patent.
1) Non-inheriting titles - I'm not sure of the proper term for it, but a
title decays as each non-inheriting generation is born. Churchill's
grandfather was a duke, his father only a lord with a stipend, and he was a
commoner who had to work. A young man who had excellent social connections
and the honorific of "Honorable" in front of his name but a still a
commoner.
Our Marine corparal who's also a baron might just be the grandson of a
duchess sporting a non-inheriting courtesy title. His daughter would not
even be a knight.
2) Planetary/non-Imperial titles - As the Imperium absorbed both pocket
empires and single worlds, it must have also had to deal with local patents
of nobility. For example when world X joined, it's ruling Grand Duke was
given a patent as an imperial marquis. The planetary nobles below him/her
would recieve lesser imperial titles. But none of them would surrender
their ancient planetary titles either.
Which title they use would depend on which social situation they were
in. Over the centuries, the imperial titles would acquire more gravity, but
the older titles would never be done away with. Too many people would
depend on them for precedence and respect in the that single world's social
mileau.
Holders of such titles would be given some respect and deference out of
mere politeness by the Imperial nobility, but a planetary baron would have
nowhere near the influence, money, or prestige of his Imperial counterpart.
A poor and unknown planetary baron might out "adventuring" in order to gain
the wherewithal to convert his title into an imperial patent.
The social manuevering between "high" planetary nobility and "low"
Imperial nobility on a world could make for very interesting adventures.
An archduchess whose title was 1000 years old before the Imperium was born
might very well look down her nose at a "mere" Imperial marquis, even though
that marquis represents he planet in the Moot and her only duties extend
about as far a hosting the major events of the social season. She and her
followers might work against the marquis' plans and projects in small ways,
just to show him way he "really" stands.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 10:47:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: OT: Ahem...Third World Nations?
>From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
>Excuuuse me, suh!
>
>Ah must take umbrage at your comments concerning the Confederacy, suh!
You
[deleted]
Please understand, sir, that I did not intend any offense to our southern
neighbors by characterizing them as independent and as members of the
Third World. Their independence they have long cherished, as your rapid
and forceful response amply demonstrates. Their Third World nature -- a
life of farming, animal husbandry, and a wide gap between rich and poor,
with little technological innovation -- is also something in which they
seem to take pride; again, your comments about the yankees' failure to
appreciate the southern culture and the yankees' newfangled ways indicate
that we are in agreement.
Mint juleps at dawn does sound good, however. I'm usually just getting in
then.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3728
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3729
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Traveller-digest Thursday, February 22 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3729
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
world series
Sports in TRAVELLER
Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
Re: world series
Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
Re: H2 vs H2O
RE: Ship habitability
Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
Re: Nobles and the Imperium
Re: Deneb sector?
RE: Ship habitability
Reposted question for Hans R-M (was Re: Nobles and the Imperium)
Re: Deneb sector
RE: Ship habitability
New Misjump Mechanism
unsubscribe traveller-digest
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Nobles and the Imperium
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 11:05:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: world series
On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> Oh, BTW.. Kiri? Baseball Season is starting. :)
hmph. some world series. none of the teams I know anything about are
ever in it!
and all this khrappe just because I expected to go to a Traveller in SF
gig and talk about Traveller?
@_@;;;
note to other non-baseball fans: do not get within 20 feet of penguin boy
during baseball season if there is a game on.
did I mention that I don't even like baseball?
I don't like baseball. Too slllloooooooooooooooooooooow. I like soccer
(esp. J-League, but maybe that's cuz I think a lot of the players are
cute-- god knows I don't follow it any more) and F-1 (can I help it if
Jacques Villeneuve is one of the few Caucasian men I've ever had a serious
fantasy about?). I have been to maybe 3 baseball games in my life and
every time I was bored out of my mind, and finally resorted to scribbling
in a notebook about whatever I was running or writing at the time, and
would rather have done so indoors, with better food...
Baseball is NOT a game for those with ADD.
Kiri ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Sports in TRAVELLER
In-Reply-To: <F205U410MDLmOQ0GoBw0001196a@hotmail.com>
Greetings dear hearts,
Mr Whipsnade just waxed ebulliently poetical about baseball (as I alas
don't know the game he lost me in the first sentence but I read the rest
for the sheer flow of the words!), then asked what sports were played in
TRAVELLER.
Hmm. I have had: -
Rollerball - as in the film of that name.
A similar thing where participants ride on powered scooters and toss
around a ball with handles.
Flyball - (actually I invented it for a CYBERPUNK scenario but it stuck
around) - which is a sort of opposed obstacle race thing.
Racing spacecraft - little things about fighter sized only no weapons (at
least, not officially).
The 'traditional' combat sports - wrestling, martial arts, fencing. Oh and
fighting with pugil sticks which is FUN.
Target sports - shooting, archery.
Assorted things half remembered from a TV show called 'Gladiators' which I
never really watched (but probably should have for research purposes).
There were probably others, but those are off the top of my head now.
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:39:44
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
Another sport that was mentioned a few years ago was a weightless form of
handball or racquetball. I think it was called "gravball" or something like
that. Some on the list was working up a tee-shirt logo for it using the
Poser graphics program.
John L.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 14:49:12 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
>asked what sports were played in TRAVELLER.
There was also a reference to spatball somewhere. I needed a sport to make
an off-handed reference to in one of my JTAS submissions, and found that one
somewhere -- can't remember where, though.
Interestingly, Loren changed what I wrote from "spatball scores on Capital"
to "spatball scores on Deneb", which suggests that he found a reference to
it that I didn't. "That fool," I picture him saying. "Doesn't he know the
professional spatball leagues didn't put an expansion franchise on Capital
until 1126? It says so right here in 'Path of Tears'!"
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:00:57 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
> Another sport that was mentioned a few years ago was a weightless form of
> handball or racquetball. I think it was called "gravball" or something
like
> that. Some on the list was working up a tee-shirt logo for it using the
> Poser graphics program.
>
IMTU Our version of gravball is more akin to variable G rollerball. The game
is played in an elliptical arena with two grav points at the foci and goals
at either end. It can be pretty violent. The only positions I can recall
offhand are goalie and power forward.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:02:00
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
Given the difficulties in athletes physically travelling large distances to
"galactic" series games in whatever sport, one solution might be expanded
fantasy sports. Each athlete would have his skills and characteristics
carefully measured and documented, a super UPP. The virtual athletes could
then travel by x-boat for individual or team competitions. Some imperial
organization would have to oversee the measurement process to prevent skill
inflation.
John L.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 12:04:22 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
> Hmm. I have had: -
>
> Rollerball - as in the film of that name.
>
> A similar thing where participants ride on powered scooters and toss
> around a ball with handles.
>
[snip]
> There were probably others, but those are off the top of my head now.
>
Battlebots seems like a natural. I am also reminded of the gladitorial
combat in Keith Laumers' "The Body Builders". Athletets in VR control
robotic fighting suits ("his 20,000 credit Charlemagne with all the boosters
the law allows").
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:05:23 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
"Mr Whipsnade just waxed ebulliently poetical about baseball (as I alas
don't know the game he lost me in the first sentence but I read the rest for
the sheer flow of the words!)"
Dr. Mexal,
Your praise in too kind, madame. If you ever get to "cross the Pond",
I would consider it a singular honor to escort you to a baseball game in one
of that sport's shrines; Fenway Park, home to the perennially cursed Boston
Red Sox.
Small, as these things go, Fenway is a snug, trim bandstand of a
ballpark. The stands surround a diamond and field of grass so green, you'd
swear the sod was imported from your homeland. The fans sit so close to the
action that the chatter between players can be heard. The crack of wooden
bats against horsehide balls, the slap of leather gloves, and hurried
footfalls of the players are all real an immediate.
It's the intimacy of the game there and intimacy is no little thing in
this media age.
The Bo-Sox haven't won the World Series since the boys of our two
nations were whipping those of Kaiser Bill. They have come quite close to
doing so on many occasions, only to fail and break the hearts of their fans.
Greek tragedies could have been written about the Olde Towne Team.
Some pin the curse on the ill-fated trade of a herculean player.
Perhaps you've heard of Babe Ruth? I, however, blame their sunny and
beautiful gem of a park. Although many in and out of the sport wax far more
poetically about Fenway's charms than I can, very few of them know of it's
true nature, a dark and sinister one.
The 'Sox are cursed because their ballpark, the very thing they take so
much pride in, had it's "Grand Opening" on the same day the RMS Titanic
sank.
So to quote the Immortal Bard, "Fair is foul..."
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:11:11 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: world series
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>
>> Oh, BTW.. Kiri? Baseball Season is starting. :)
>
>
> hmph. some world series. none of the teams I know anything about are
> ever in it!
Don't fret Kiri, there are others of us out here who are Cubs or Red Sox fans ;-P
(Why oh WHY did they have to ban that $#@#!@ goat from Wrigley???!!!)
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:23:53 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
>From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
"Given the difficulties in athletes physically travelling large
distances to "galactic" series games in whatever sport, one solution might
be expanded fantasy sports."
Mr. Lambert,
What an excellent idea! "Virtual" games and competitions. Instead of
"shipping" the team, we ship the data instead. This way the Red Sox can
lose to the Glisten Greys in the Imperial Series on Capital without ever
leaving Fenway.
Good grief! My seasons will be even more heartbreaking...
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:02:50 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Well, there's sort of a scale difference there. The side effects
> from one dton of ammonium hydroxide cracked for hydrogen would be a
> couple hundred dtons of air at STP. You're going to have to store
> it in some compressed form or another.
... which is why I mentioned liquefying it, and feeding *some* of it
into the ship's air as needed.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:02:11 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
>> Basically very few people
>> outside the military get the pay of a Chief Mess Specialist, Yeoman or
Personnel
>> Specialist for doing the same job. Very few Chief Electronic Technicians,
>> Electricians, or any of the computer specialty ratings make as little as
they do
>> in the military doing the same job. Just more proof of your point.
>
>I'm begining to think the problem is one that has no ready solution. It
looks
>like the basic issue is that the supply and demand curves for various
>specialites, etc are different inside and outside the military. Simply
changing
>the pay rates won't fix this, because on a ship the cooks, etc are just as
>important to the function of the ship, and paying them less than other
>specialties just because they've got nowhere better to go will damage their
>morale. Our Army has this problem because of under-paying the infantry
(though
>their pay scales are the same, they don't get bonuses for civvie quals,
etc),
>and the only answer anybody's come up with is to pay everyone in the
military
>more, which ain't going to happen.
>
>--
>"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
This is the same "strawman" argument that the military uses. The fact is
that the company I work for could not operate without the janitors that
clean the offices, the clerks who do the paperwork or the people who run the
tech library, but those people don't get paid any where near the rate of the
technicians or scientists who are employed at the facility. Now I don't
doubt that all of them would have better moral if they made more money, but
no business will pay a clerk the same pay as a accelerator operator.
The answer is not that difficult. Pay each person based on his or her duties
and qualifications. A certain amount of pay for being Surface Warfare
(Submarine) qualified, a certain amount for each Damage Control Party
Station qualified, with persons who are qualified for positions of
leadership being paid more. More money for being a division leading petty
officer. More money for being a technician, than for being a cook. More
money for being qualified as Officer of the Deck or Engineering Officer of
the Watch. (Both watches often held by enlisteds.) And, of course, some
seniority pay for time in, especially for continuous qualification of
demanding skills and positions.
This way a MSC (that's a chief cook) who is also Surface Warfare qualified,
an Officer of the Deck and Fire Party Leader will get more money than some
CT (That's Crypto Tech) who just works his primary job, but doesn't care
about mastering general warfare skills (and so is not as good an asset for
the ship.) Of course a GSC(SW)-That's a Gas Turbine Tech Chief, who is as
qualified as the MSC will make substantially more. He went to school longer,
his a more technically demanding specialty, and has lots of opportunities on
the outside.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:11:10 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
On 22 Feb 2001, at 7:22, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> At 01:39 AM 2/23/2001 +1300, you wrote:
> >On 12 Feb 2001, at 11:51, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> >
> >> The Traveller Website Review
> >
> >I hate to be a pain, but are there going to be any more of these? I was
> >really enjoying them and finding them useful.
>
> well, if there are going to be more, I'd like to ask that people hold off
> on reviewing Sylea Downport.
>
> We've just ordered the Shiny New Computer(tm), and once that is running, I
> am planning on a serious facelift for the site.
>
> 866Mhz Pentium III, 256Meg of Memory, 20 Gig HD, two CD bays, one 48x
> standard, one write-to drive.. man, I'm in Nerdvana!
Ooooh. You lucky devil, you. I upgraded my old P133 mid-last year, but it ain't
that flash (Celeron 566, 64mB, 17GB HDD). Wish the darn thing ran a bit cooler,
though - I'm going to have to spend money on better fans if I'm to run it a
866mHz.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:18:03 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
> With regards to the "no responsibilities and no money" nobility
>mentioned above, might I suggest a solution? I've always handled such PCs
>and NPCs as either non-inheriting children and grandchildren or as holders
>[of] planetary titles with no corresponding Imperial patent.
But if his title is a planetary title with no corresponding Imperial patent, why
is his social class considered to correspond to an Imperial title?
>1) Non-inheriting titles - I'm not sure of the proper term for it, but a
>title decays as each non-inheriting generation is born. Churchill's
>grandfather was a duke, his father only a lord with a stipend, and he was a
>commoner who had to work.
Sounds like the father was a younger son who got a lifetime peerage. Regardless,
if Lord Randolph was 'only' an earl or a viscount, then he wasn't of the same
social rank as his father and Churchill in turn wasn't of the same social rank
as Lord Randolph. In Traveller terms, if the grandfather was SL X then Lord
Randolph was SL X-2 and Churchill was SL X-4 (or something).
>A young man who had excellent social connections and the honorific of
>"Honorable" in front of his name but a still a commoner.
If he is an honorable he isn't a commoner (He is much worse, a useless younger
son ;-).
> Our Marine corparal who's also a baron might just be the grandson of a
>duchess sporting a non-inheriting courtesy title. His daughter would not
>even be a knight.
But a marine corporal who was an _Imperial_ baron would be the grandson of an
_Imperial_ duchess and would correspond more closely to a member of the Zar of
Russia close family, and _they_ were all Grand Dukes and the like.
>2) Planetary/non-Imperial titles - As the Imperium absorbed both pocket
>empires and single worlds, it must have also had to deal with local patents
>of nobility. For example when world X joined, it's ruling Grand Duke was
>given a patent as an imperial marquis. The planetary nobles below him/her
>would recieve lesser imperial titles. But none of them would surrender
>their ancient planetary titles either.
I agree. But the Grand Duke of Fornol wouldn't have a social level equivalent to
an Imperial duke but only to an Imperial marquis.
> Holders of such titles would be given some respect and deference out of
>mere politeness by the Imperial nobility, but a planetary baron would have
>nowhere near the influence, money, or prestige of his Imperial counterpart.
>A poor and unknown planetary baron might out "adventuring" in order to gain
>the wherewithal to convert his title into an imperial patent.
But such a baron wouldn't be SL 12. He'd be whatever SL the barons of his planet
were. And that's just the problem, because there is no SL for such people. SL 9
is the upper middle class. SL 10 is the gentry. That is the Lord of the Manor,
the rural English squire, lord of all he surveys, which is a few hundred or
maybe thousand acres. SL 13 is the Imperial marquis, the social equal of
planetary rulers. In between squires and planetary rulers you have minor nobles
(~barons), rulers of counties (~counts), rulers of regions (~marquesses/dukes),
rulers of provinces (~dukes/princes), heads of state (~princes/kings), and
rulers of continents (~emperors). And all these ranks are squeezed into just two
ranks, SL 11 and 12.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:24:59 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Deneb sector?
Am Thursday, February 22, 2001, las ich folgendes:
> Hello Folks,
> Has there ever been an official output of the Deneb Sector? If so, where
> can I get my hands on the data?
DGP´s Megatraveller Journal 1 and 2 has the map (1) and data (2)...
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:25:42 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 22 Feb 2001, at 17:02, Terry Carlino wrote:
> This way a MSC (that's a chief cook) who is also Surface Warfare qualified, an
> Officer of the Deck and Fire Party Leader will get more money than some CT
> (That's Crypto Tech) who just works his primary job, but doesn't care about
> mastering general warfare skills (and so is not as good an asset for the ship.)
> Of course a GSC(SW)-That's a Gas Turbine Tech Chief, who is as qualified as the
> MSC will make substantially more. He went to school longer, his a more
> technically demanding specialty, and has lots of opportunities on the outside.
The idea is good, but it's that last that hurts. I don't know about the Navy,
but my experience in our Army suggests that the infantry really suffer (and
other teeth arms) becasue they have few skills transferable to the outside
until they get enough rank to have human resource and management skills. As
these are the people who are the whole reason everyone else exists, and the
ones that do all the dying, they are naturally not very happy about being less
well paid.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:27:49 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Reposted question for Hans R-M (was Re: Nobles and the Imperium)
Thanks for the repost. This time, I burn it on a CD. :-)
Couple of questions:
Have you thought about looking at regional world populations
when thinking about the relative influence of different noble
ranks? For example, worlds of populations (which fuels the
trade equation) X or below might only deserve a Barony.
Pops Y get a Marquis, Pop Z or greater get Count (where
X<Y<Z).
With that sort of mechanism, a huge world might have a
Count, a Marquis or two, and a handful of Barons, where
a low pop world may have only a Baron or Banneret.
That would also have the variety you mention, where Baron
Little World and Count Big World each have only one vote
in the Moot (if it's one world, one vote).
Regarding the Typical value for fiefs. Is that 'annual' value?
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:46:40 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Deneb sector
Hal asks:
> Has there ever been an official output of the Deneb Sector? If so, where
>can I get my hands on the data?
_Regency Sourcebook_ has 1117 UWPs for Deneb. _Megatraveller Journal_ #1 has
UWPs too. I can't recall the date. Somewhere around 1120 or 22 IIRC.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:50:05 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
"The answer is not that difficult. Pay each person based on his or her
duties and qualifications. A certain amount of pay for being Surface Warfare
(Submarine) qualified, a certain amount for each Damage Control Party
Station qualified, with persons who are qualified for positions of
leadership being paid more. More money for being a division leading petty
officer. More money for being a technician, than for being a cook. More
money for being qualified as Officer of the Deck or Engineering Officer of
the Watch. (Both watches often held by enlisteds.) And, of course, some
seniority pay for time in, especially for continuous qualification of
demanding skills and positions."
Mr. Carlino,
I heartily agree with you sir. I was an LPO, the ships' mechanical
calibration co-ordinator, an On Scene Leader, an enlisted surface warfare
specialist, an enlisted EOOW, along with many other positions, and got
nothing for any of it. I had unqualified nubs working for my level leaders
who recieved "professional pay" simply because they'd re-enlisted and I did
not. My E-6 pay, plus sea pay, didn't even come close to theirs because I
hadn't re-upped.
The bean counters and khakis will always find an excuse, often resting
on the hoary idea of tradition and discipline, to avoid ignoring the men in
the ranks. It's "Toys before Boys" and damn you for suggesting anything
else.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:46:10 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: New Misjump Mechanism
Hello Folks,
While this idea isn't likely new, I've not come across it as yet, and
figured I'd post it. Apologies if someone else proposed this in the 20
plus years of Traveller.
New Routine: Lable top hex as number 1, and work your way clockwise with
2, and 3. Direction 4 would be south of the hex, with 5 and 6 continuing
clockwise. Roll 1d6. This is your distance value. Roll 1d6 again, this
is your direction of error - of sorts. Roll 1d6 ignoring any value higher
than your "distance" value. Thus, if your distance was to be 4 parsecs,
you would ignore a roll of a 5 or 6 and reroll. Then, counting from the
hex in the direction you went initially, move the ship that many hexes as
you rolled for the final resting place. The direction you shift from is
towards the next "Spine" hex.
Spine hex definition: A spine hex is any hex that is *exactly* in line with
one of the sides of your starting hex. Example:
Starting hex is 1927. Spine hex 1 that is 3 hexes away would be 1924.
Spine hex 2 would be 2225. Spine hex 3 would be 2228. Spine hex 4 would
be 1930. Spine hex 5 would be 1628, and Spine hex 6 would be 1625.
Sample Misjump: The Loose Goose Beowulf Class ship is about to have a date
with destiny. It sets course for a four hour... er, 1 parsec journey from
Spirelle to Tenalphi (hex 1927 to hex 1826). An uhoh occurs where the
Engineer accidentally spills a can of NeoPepsi causing it to hit the
engineering panel at a critical moment. Fate (ie, our GM rolling dice)
decrees that the LOOSE GOOSE is fated to travel more or less in the
direction of 3 (lower right hexside of hex 1927). Fate decrees that the
LOOSE GOOSE will misjump 3 parsecs. The GM rolls a 6 sided, and gets a 4.
This is too large, so he rolls again. This time, he gets a 2. What hex
does LOOSE GOOSE land in? First, direction 3 and three hexes leads us to
the spine hex 2228. The shift roll was a "2" so the shift is from spinehex
3 towards spine hex 4, by 2 hexes. This results in a final resting place
at hex 2029.
Second example: The LOOSE GOOSE, not having learned that it is wise to
tune up your engines after that kind of horrible Neopepsi Syndrome (and
having found an ice asteroid in the deeps to return from its previous
escapade) finds itself at Harvosette in hex 2129. It attempts to jump to
Persephone in hex 2228. Again, it misjumps and discovers that fate intends
for it to land 5 parsecs away! The GM rolls a 6 for direction. This means
that initially, the spine hex is 1626. The next spine hex (clockwise) is
2124. The GM rolls a 4 for the shift. Counting from the initial spine hex
towards the next spine hex - the LOOSE GOOSE passes over 1726, 1825, 1925,
and luckily lands in 2024 - Derchon. The engineer quits the ship and opens
the Tavern known as "Loose asa Goose" and has yet to leave his drunken stupor.
What this "process" permits is for ships to land within a "ring" of hexes
that are a set distance in parsecs from the ship's starting location. For
many who are looking at such things statistically? If a ship intends to
make a 1 hex jump towards direction 1, all he needs to roll is a 1 for
direction, and a 1 for distance. This permits him to land in the same hex
as he originally intended. I would however, recommend that GM's
inconvience their players by lengthening their journey times in normal
space...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:51:17 -0800
From: "John Menichelli" <menichel@lvcm.com>
Subject: unsubscribe traveller-digest
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:55:52 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
>
> "Oh, BTW.. Kiri? Baseball Season is starting. :)"
>
> Ahhh... A sunny day in the bleachers. Two dogs with 'slaw and a cold
> beer. Peanuts. Keeping your own box score on the program. The organ
> playing "Charge" when there's a man on second and another at bat.
> Rally caps. Cheese in the kitchen and a yakker for a kudo. Chin music. A
> ball hit so far there "shoulda been a stewardess on it". The Olde Towne
> Team taking their usual September swoon. 1918 and counting...
>
> One reason I want to see the National Space Plane project to succeed, a
> real World Series! Just imagine a Carribean League, a North American
> League, and an Asian League all playing in a REAL Series. Ohhhhh
> babeeeeee....... (I'm taking bets on the Carribean League!)
>
Problem with a Carribean League is most of the people down there, being remnants
of the Vilin^H^H^H^H British Empire, play the much better summer game of
Cricket...A refined game for refined people don'cher know? A lot less frenzied
running about and more time to drink beer...
Other Rob
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:52:28 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Mr. Rancke-Madsen,
Thank you responding to my suggestions. Hopefully I'll be able to
clear up a few of my ideas for you.
"Larsen E. Whipsnade writes: as holders [of] planetary titles with no
corresponding Imperial patent."
"But if his title is a planetary title with no corresponding Imperial
patent, why is his social class considered to correspond to an Imperial
title?"
The Imperial nobility ensure that others treat him with deference, even
if they do not, so that the deference due to them is not stinted or
questioned. This doens't mean that his influence or advice would count for
anything among the Imperial nobility, but they'll make very sure he isn't
snubbed by the commons. Can't have the rabble getting any ideas.
"In Traveller terms, if the grandfather was SL X then Lord Randolph was
SL X-2 and Churchill was SL X-4 (or something)."
Sounds good to me. Let's see the Duke, Grampa John, would be SL E or
F. Lord Randolph SL A (no title other then Lord) and Winston SL 9
"...would recieve lesser imperial titles. But none of them would
surrender their ancient planetary titles either."
I agree. But the Grand Duke of Fornol wouldn't have a social level
equivalent to an Imperial duke but only to an Imperial marquis.
I entirely agree with that and wasn't suggesting that he would. He'd
have an Imperial patent whose level would be based on how his world was
brought into the Imperium and how his family has served the Imperium since
then.
Of course, on Fornol or within the boundaries of the long vanished
pocket empire that surrounded it, our Grand Duke might have a still greater
social level than that of an Imperial subsector duke. Especially if he's a
member of an ancient (pre-Imperial)family and the Imperial duke's
great-great-grandmother was just some enobled admiral.
"But such a baron wouldn't be SL 12. He'd be whatever SL the barons of
his planet were."
I'm suggesting a "courtesy" SL for such individuals. He'd still be
treated as a noble, but without all the precedence due a "real" Imperial
baron. His social level off world would be equal to whatever the Imperial
nobility decided it was and they'd make damn sure he was treated that way,
lest the commons get ideas about not showing deference to them.
It can also work the other way around. If the local noble has been
problem for the Imperial nobility of his locale, they can make sure he's
snubbed when he moves beyond his little social circle; "Listen, pal. I
don't care if you're the Duke of Earl, you still pay full price for your oil
change. Get it?"
"In between squires and planetary rulers you have minor nobles
(~barons), rulers of counties (~counts), rulers of regions
~marquesses/dukes), rulers of provinces (~dukes/princes), heads of state
(~princes/kings), and rulers of continents (~emperors). And all these ranks
are squeezed into just two ranks, SL 11 and 12."
Sounds okay to me. Why not have all those minor nobles seem as one big
"clump" from the Imperial viewpoint? The Imperium propaganda professes not
to be interested in the mere internal workings of it's member planets. The
Imperials work backward from the Emperor, down to the Marquis of each
planet. Anything belwo the level of Marquis is not worth worrying too much
about from the Imperial viewpoint.
With that in mind, in order to handle the plethora of lesser Imperial
nobility below Marquis but above the squire, they cram them all into two
ranks. It doesn't matter what they're called just as long as their get
their dues.
The King-Emperor of Absurdia might have a SL of 15 among his subjects,
an "official" SL of 12 due to his Imperial patent as Marquis Strange, and an
"unofficial" SL of 3 once off world because the Imperial nobility in the
region view him as a completly worthless sack of steaming produce. The fun
is in deciding when each of the SLs are appropriate.
And that's just where the GM gets to step in. Rather than have some
table, or die roll, or other mechanism, he gets to put his thumb print on
the universe. Canon gave him the guidelines and now he and his PCs can
play.
IMTU, the PCs with high SLs had two routes. If they rolled a high SL
during intial charecter generation, they were local nobility; second sons,
remittance men, wanderers and the like. If during their career generation
they recieved a +1 soc, it referred to an Imperial award. They were assumed
to have an "Imperial" SL of 9, so the +1 gave them an Imperial knighthood.
Additional awards of social rank bumped them up the Imperial ladder.
That worked for us. YMMV.
Larsen
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3729
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3730
Date: | 2/22/01 5:20:16 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Thursday, February 22 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3730
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: New Misjump Mechanism
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: world series
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
TML Archive?
Re: world series
Re: H2 vs H2O
Re: TML Archive?
re: world series
re: Sports in TRAVELLER
Re: H2 vs H2O
RE: world series
Re: Deneb sector
Re: Looking for a home
Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Introduction to Traveller
Re: TML Archive?
Re: More KB3 Questions
Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:05:04 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: New Misjump Mechanism
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> If a ship intends to make a 1 hex jump towards direction 1, all he
> needs to roll is a 1 for direction, and a 1 for distance. This
> permits him to land in the same hex as he originally intended. I
> would however, recommend that GM's inconvience their players by
> lengthening their journey times in normal space...
I'll say! They could end up anywhere out to about 100 000 AU, for a
journey time at 1G of up to ... 1.9 years. If they emerge at a random
point in a (flat) hex, their median travel time would be 1.6 years.
Longer if hexes have some volume too.
If they're *really* lucky (as in, 1 in 1000 lucky), their travel time
will be 4 months or less at 1G, or 8 weeks at 5G.
Better have good life support :)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:18:22 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
> ObTrav: Are there any sports that might have a subsector, sector,
> or even (gulp) Imperium wide following?
Cricket.
> Any ideas for Vilani sports?
Cricket.
Actually, the Geonee claim that they invented Cricket. The Vilani claim
that the Geonee game was copied from Ancient artifacts.
The Hivers also invented Cricket, but their version was based on an
inferior technology, called Baseball.
The K'kree play Rugby. A lot.
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:00:59 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: world series
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
> > Oh, BTW.. Kiri? Baseball Season is starting. :)
>
>
<snip>
>
> Baseball is NOT a game for those with ADD.
>
Try Cricket...especially Test Cricket...5 days of a slow moving game...
Other Rob
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:08:36 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
"Problem with a Carribean League is most of the people down there,
being remnants of the Vilin^H^H^H^H British Empire, play the much better
summer game of Cricket...A refined game for refined people don'cher know? A
lot less frenzied running about and more time to drink beer..."
Cricket? Less running and more time for beer drinking? Sounds good to
me. Where's the sign up list?
I like the fact that you can throw spit balls in cricket. I do not
like the idea of flat bats.
While ambling through a park in Melbourne, Australia once many years
ago, several young discerned I was a "yank" and coaxed me into taking a turn
at bat in front of the wicket. I watched a few pitches at first, then
signalled the young man to "bring the heat". He uncorked what a believe is
called a "googly", whereupon I spanked it into the ozone.
Flat bats. Too easy.
Larsen
P.S. The result of my "at-bat" was not due to any athletic prowess, indeed I
have none beyond cheating kiddies out of milk money with three walnut shells
and a pea. Rather, it was thanks to several pints of Newcastle safely, and
happily, enscounced behind my belt buckle.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:13:59 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
> signalled the young man to "bring the heat". He uncorked what a believe
is
> called a "googly", whereupon I spanked it into the ozone.
> Flat bats. Too easy.
>
But Cricket bats do make for better oars.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:13:07 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
"The K'kree play Rugby. A lot."
Mr. Bradley,
I've seen placards stating that "Rugby players eat their dead".
Surely that then makes rugby one of the Hiver manipulations which ended
the war?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:09:47 -0500
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Cricket?
Why not Grasshopper?
Or maybe Cicada.
How about a whole series of sports names for irritating insects?
Cricket. Yeah, right.
>:)
Sam
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:12:04 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: TML Archive?
I've been away. Is there an archive for messages on the TML? I
searched, but I did not seem to find it.
Hmmm...
Kenneth.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:15:51 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: world series
On 23 Feb 2001, at 11:00, Rob wrote:
> Try Cricket...especially Test Cricket...5 days of a slow moving game...
But one of them is a rest day. :)
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:29:09 +0000
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
Thanks to both Timothy and John!
A miracle has happened... I understood that :-)
Thanks. I wasn't thinking in terms of density (or "'preferred'
distance", if you will). It now makes sense to me. I can however see
the problem of weight correspondence between H2O/L-Hyd...
1 dTon of water does mass more than 1 dTon of L-Hyd. Of course in a CT
setting this is not truly relevant, but if you use mass/trust based
system it become a real issue
Thanks
Doug :-)
Timothy Little wrote:
>
> Doug C. wrote:
> >
> > Maybe I'm missing something... (I frequently do...)
> >
> > Fuel is LHyd...
> > Water is H2O...
> > Ignoring atomic wieghts/volumes (of which i know less than nothing)
>
> That's the thing -- water molecules pack closer together than hydrogen
> molecules. Atoms aren't hard balls that take up a fixed amount of
> space, and molecules aren't really solid shapes either.
> Maybe it would help to think of molecules in liquids as being a bit
> like flocks of birds or swarms of insects. They have a (roughly)
> fixed density, but it's not because they are actually packed tightly
> against each other, it's that they sort of have a "preferred"
> distance.
> Water molecules have a smaller "preferred" distance than hydrogen
> ones, for various reasons.
AND
John W. Fox Wrote;
> Doug:
> The volume of one ton of H2 is 13.5 m^3.
> The volume of H2O required for one ton oh H2 is 9 m^3
> You have 4.5 m^3 less volume required.
> Weight is another thing!
>
> John W. Fox
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:25:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: TML Archive?
Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions writes:
> I've been away. Is there an archive for messages on the TML? I
> searched, but I did not seem to find it.
Yes, though it's mighty inconvenient.
ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/MailingListArchive/Traveller/
Current archives are still in v1999.*, for whatever reasons.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:31:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: world series
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
>I don't like baseball. Too slllloooooooooooooooooooooow. I like soccer
That's why it's the most popular sport in Japan. It's a long, meditative,
war. It's the only spectator sport involving balls and teams that I can
stand to watch. I'll bet we could get a Trav-in-SF group out for a day
game this summer.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:32:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Sports in TRAVELLER
Let's not forget Grav Ball, everybody's favorite spectator ball-and-team
sport in the Far Future.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:32:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
Doug C. writes:
> Thanks to both Timothy and John!
>
> A miracle has happened... I understood that :-)
>
> Thanks. I wasn't thinking in terms of density (or "'preferred'
> distance", if you will). It now makes sense to me. I can however see
> the problem of weight correspondence between H2O/L-Hyd...
> 1 dTon of water does mass more than 1 dTon of L-Hyd. Of course in a CT
> setting this is not truly relevant, but if you use mass/trust based
> system it become a real issue
Since you can't typically feed water into a jump drive anyway, the only real
use for chemical hydrogen storage is if you want to be able to jump twice
without refueling, in which case you can use chemical storage for the fuel
for the second jump. This is mostly useful for rift-crossing.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:36:05 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: world series
Tell me when i love live baseball 8) which is weird my favorite times are
the small teams not the major leagues. Houwever if i had to choose a Major
league team it would be the cubbies 8P
Hasta
- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Goffin [mailto:gmgoffin@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 4:32 PM
To: traveller mailing aa list
Subject: re: world series
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
>I don't like baseball. Too slllloooooooooooooooooooooow. I like soccer
That's why it's the most popular sport in Japan. It's a long, meditative,
war. It's the only spectator sport involving balls and teams that I can
stand to watch. I'll bet we could get a Trav-in-SF group out for a day
game this summer.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices!
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:43:22 +0000
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Deneb sector
DGP Traveller's Digest #1 has subsector key, Dot Map (w x-boat routes),
some library data, and Pretoria subsector hexmap & UWP c.1111
Digest #2 has some library data, and Atsah subsector hexmap & UWP c.1111
Digest #19 has full sector hexmap, UWP, and Library Data c.1120
DPG The Early Adventures (compendium of the 'adventure' from TD 1-4)
reprinted this material)
Doug :-)
Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>
> Hal asks:
> > Has there ever been an official output of the Deneb Sector? If so, where
> >can I get my hands on the data?
>
> _Regency Sourcebook_ has 1117 UWPs for Deneb. _Megatraveller Journal_ #1 has
> UWPs too. I can't recall the date. Somewhere around 1120 or 22 IIRC.
>
> Hans
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:46:42 +0000
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Looking for a home
Me
Doug :-)
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>
> Hello Folks,
> I've just started working on a map of the SPINWARD MARCHES using Campaign
> Cartographer. What I've done is to place the stars in their correct hex
> and all. Big deal right? <grin>. What I'm also doing is coloring in the
> star to represent the star type. Green for F class stars, Red for M class
> stars, Yellow for G class, Orange for K class.
>
> Question: what colors would people suggest I use for A class - Light Blue?
>
> Question: should I distinguish between Giant Class stars and main sequence
> stars by making the circle larger for giant class?
>
> Question: should I include symbols for binary and Trinary star systems?
>
> Question: once I finish this map, who wants it for their web page?
>
> Hal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:52:59 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Hello Folks,
Somehow, I suspect that my chances of getting my hands on Deneb via DGP's
stuff is vanishingly small. Question for Loren:
Since it seems that DPG's stuff is off limits for publication, will SJGames
publish a *new* Deneb sector?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:04:37 +0000
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
I truly hope not!
I for one have been using the excellent DGP Deneb material for CT for
MANY.... years.
My current campaign uses the DGP material for Deneb/Corridor/Trojan
reach & Reft sectors. The material without the MT/Rebellion adjustments
of course, as my current campaign date is 1112
Doug :-)
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>
> Hello Folks,
> Somehow, I suspect that my chances of getting my hands on Deneb via DGP's
> stuff is vanishingly small. Question for Loren:
>
> Since it seems that DPG's stuff is off limits for publication, will SJGames
> publish a *new* Deneb sector?
>
> Hal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:13:38 -0700
From: "A. Batishko" <abatish@utah-inter.net>
Subject: Introduction to Traveller
I've got a friend who will be joining the PBEM I'm running. He told me that
he's having a hard time envisioning his character since he doesn't have any
background knowledge to the Traveller setting. Are there any electronic
based introductions to Traveller that cover basic information about the
setting? I don't live anywhere near the guy, so I need to either e-mail him
something, or give him a url he can check out...
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:13:23 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: TML Archive?
Thanks Anthony!
Kenneth.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:08:23 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: More KB3 Questions
Hey David,
I've been away from the list, so it's a good thing you wrote me individually
(or I would not have received your question). As you requested, I will respond
to you personally and to the list.
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> >Piter's friend, Rnold is a very strong fellow, he has an Str of
> >14, and he grabs that hatch wheel and gives it a mighty yank. I
> >take it he still rolls the default 1d6 on his Lifting task?
Yes, he rolls 1D6 default skill.
> How
> >is Rnold's 14 helping him here?
This is an "attribute" roll--one of those skill rolls in Traveller that the
Traveller skill set doesn't cover (well...usually doesn't cover...T4's
Athletics skill went a long way to covering situations like this that were not
covered in CT and MT rules).
An attribute roll gets a special modifier to the Difficulty. (Reduce the
Difficulty by an amount equal to the stat.)
So...
If the GM decided that the Difficulty of pulling open that stuck hatch was
Difficult, Rnold would roll 1D6 (his default skill) versus the GM's Difficulty
roll of 3D6 - 14 (3D6 is Difficult, and we subtract Rnold's Str because this
is an attribute roll).
> >He may not fail as badly as Piter, but he is still going to fail
> >as *often* isn't he?
He will fail as often if his Str is the same as Piter's.
If Piter's Str is 7, and Rnold's is 14 (and the task to force open the hatch is
still Difficult), then....
Piter will roll 1D6 vs 3D6 - 7
Rnold will roll 1D6 vs 3D6 - 14
> Kenneth, you never really answered this question - or maybe I'm just
> confused.
Hopefully, that cleared it up for you.
> If Rnold rolls a Task Throw of 5 on 1D and you roll a Diff Throw of 18 on
> 3D, he has still _failed_, hasn't he?
This is probably repetitive, but to make sure I answer your exact question:
Rnold throws a 5 on his 1D6.
Difficulty throw is 18 on 3D6.
Rnold succeeds because 5 is greater than 4 (18 - 14)
And, because "5" is less than Rnold's Str 14, it is a Greater Success.
> As far as I can tell, Rnold FAILED his roll. Therefore you subtract 14 from
> 18 and get 4, which you compare to the Task Roll of 5. Since the Task Throw
> _beat_ the Diff Throw minus Stat, it is only a Regular Failure.
>
> Am I interpreting this correctly???
No. See above.
I'll go over it again just to be clear. You'll see that it's really simple.
(1) Rnold has Str 14 and is making an attribute check based on Str to open a
stuck hatch. The GM says the hatch would be Difficult to open.
(2) Rnold throws 1D, getting a 5.
(3) GM throws difficulty of 3D, getting 18. We subtract Rnold's Str from this
total because it is an attribute check, so the difficulty throw results in a
total of 4.
(4) Rnold's throw is a success because his task throw of "5" beat the
difficulty throw of "4". And, because Rnold's successful throw was LOWER than
the governing stat (5 is lower than 14), it is a Greater Success throw as well.
> 2. "Exactly Equal" Cases
>
> Also, your rules missed the "exactly equals" cases:
I didn't miss that (I just don't thing the "greater than or equal to" and "less
than or equal to" signs came out right on the TML write up).
Just for clarification: if the Task Throw and the Difficulty Throw are equal,
the Task Throw is a success.
So, if a guy throws 2D to hit and his result is 7, he will succeed if the
difficulty throw is 7 or less, fail if the difficulty throw is 8 or better.
> 3. Does Greater Success Work?
Yes.
> I'm really having difficulties with the Greater Success stuff.
I'll see if I can help you. I bet the problem you are having is that you want
to either roll really, really high or really, really low. KB3 is not based on
this. It is based on a "just enough is what you want and too much is not as
good" philosophy.
In KB3, the closer you roll to the target number the better (KB3 is not "the
farther you roll above the target number the better).
> To me, it
> seems counter-intuitive at first glance. If you absolutely blitz the Task
> Throw (roll really high), you are more likely to achieve Marginal Success
> than Greater Success.
This is correct, by design.
(If the example below does not clear it up for you, let me know--I'll discuss
Greater Success in more detail).
> Also, the higher the Diff Throw, the more chance you
> could roll under Diff Throw + Stat and thus the more chance of Greater
> Success. Why? (what are your thoughts?)
You've got this part of KB3 wrong. I'll walk you through a typical task throw.
Barge, a sergeant major from the Sword Worlds, has Dex 9 and Pistol-3. He
wants to shoot at a Darrian that has pissed him off.
The Darrian bad guy is at a range of 40 meters (which is Short range on the
combat chart). To hit a target at Short range, you have to throw a Difficult
task (Difficult tasks are 3D).
So...Barge has to make a Difficult Pistol throw in order to shoot the Darrian
that pissed him off.
Here's how the task would work out in the game...
(1) Barge shoots at the Darrian. 4D are rolled (a number of D6 equal to the
E-Die plus Skill level). Barge gets a total of 7.
(2) Then, the GM throws the difficulty for the Darrian. Range is Short, so 3D
are thrown. Total is 7 as well.
(3) What does this mean? Barge hit the Darrian (ties go to the task throw),
and Barge's to hit throw resulted in a Greater Success (his total of 7 is less
than his Dex 9).
All KB3 is...is comparing two dice totals. One throw is for the aggressor and
the other is for the defender. The highest of the two wins.
A task means that someone is trying to overcome some sort of obstacle. The
Task Throw represents that person's effort to succeed. The Difficulty Throw
represents the obstacles standing in that person's way of accomplishing his
task.
> 4. How Do Task Throw Bonuses Work?
Modifiers ALWAYS are applied to the difficulty. They are ALMOST NEVER applied
to the Task Roll (I say "almost" because there are one or two exceptions).
So...
In KB3, you're only modifing ONE number--the Difficulty.
Beneficial mods will REDUCE the Difficulty.
Dis-advantageous mods will INCREASE the Difficulty.
> Now, I know you haven't shown us all the combat mods yet, but... say you
> had a long-range weapon (+5 to Aimed Fire) with an advanced sight (+4) and
> you are aiming at a stationary target (+2), you get +11 to hit.
So, you would REDUCE the Difficulty by 11.
Barge (Dex 9, Pistol-3), is firing at Daine the Darrian, and Barge gets all the
mods you suggest above. If Daine was at Short Range (3D Difficulty), the throw
would be...
Barge's 4D attack throw vs 3D - 11.
(It's that simple.)
> This will
> almost certainly convert any success into only a Marginal Success (assuming
> I was correct in my earlier interpretation).
Not if you apply all mods to the Difficulty throw. (This is the main reason
for having the rule of all mods applied to the Difficulty--I just got lucky
with the simplicity of only having to think about one side of the task, not
both the task and difficulty throws).
> In other words, the better
> your equipment, the worse the result!
Negative. Reduce your difficulty with your mods from your better equipment--it
will be MORE LIKELY that you roll Greater Success.
> One idea I had to fix this is to only
> compare the _base roll_ (no mods) with the (Diff Throw + Stat).
As I demonstrated above, it doesn't need fixin'!
> Comments?
Hope they were clear and helpful.
> (Kenneth, could you send your replies to me as well as the list, since I'm
> getting snowed under by work emails, let alone my 50-or-so unread TML
> digests!!!)
You got.
It was a pleasure.
Kenneth.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:15:34 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
Glenn Goffin wrote:
> Let's not forget Grav Ball, everybody's favorite spectator ball-and-team
> sport in the Far Future.
>
Vargrball...chase the ball! chase the ball! arf arf arf...
Other Rob
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3730
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3731
Date: | 2/22/01 6:42:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Thursday, February 22 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3731
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Nobles and the Imperium
Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
Re: Introduction to Traveller
Re: Standard Imperial Culture (or: nobles, rednecks, and bwaps, oh my!)
Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
The spirit of the game
Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
Strange sports
Traveller Sports
Re: Nobles and the Imperium
Re: Strange sports
Re: H2 vs H2O
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:19:53 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
>How about a whole series of sports names for irritating insects?
I'm not sure I'm up for a game called "Danny DeVito"
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:31:40 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium
Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote
> the world's GWP would be calculated according to some formula
> agreed upon between the world and the Imperium, and the Imperium would get a
> check for that amount. As the only way of transferring wealth from one system
> to another is to transport goods from one to the other, the Imperium would
> mostly get its cut in goods and services. Starships, supplies, annual
> maintenances, etc.
The worlds of the Imperium could easily transfer wealth from
themselves to the Imperium by simply paying in Imperial credits.
Every Imperial credit out there is a debt that the Imperium owes
the holder of that credit. If worlds turn these credits in then
the indebtedness of the Imperium is released. The Imperium can
then use these credits as they see fit. If the Imperial credit
is not accepted by the Imperial government why should anyone
else accept it?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:37:37 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
"Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com> wrote
> before you accept
> as fact anything anyone says, go look it up for yourself.
Bloo could you suggest an appropriate source I might use
to look up the factualness of the above assertion? :)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:44:20 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Introduction to Traveller
"A. Batishko" wrote:
> I don't live anywhere near the guy, so I need to either e-mail him
> something, or give him a url he can check out...
>
> Andrew
Andrew,
Will this help you?
==============
The year is 1105,
by the calendar established at the dawn of humaniti’s third
attempt at an interstellar empire.
For over a thousand standard years, man has pushed out into
the galactic arm, conqueror of all in his path, dominator of
planets and solar systems alike, stretching his reach over 200
parsecs from Terra.
Aliens refer to this region of the galaxy as Humani Space.
Humans call it
The Third Imperium.
Known space is but a fraction of the entire galaxy, but the Third Imperium is
one of the largest empires in known space—the largest interstellar empire in
existence. It is one of three human-dominated empires, and together, these
three human dominated regions account for over a fourth of every solar system
that has ever been explored.
Humans are the most numerous beings known to exist.
A blue planet, lying far out in one of the spiral arms of the Milky Way, is the
birthworld of the Humani. Some refer to this world by its ancient name, Earth,
but most beings today call it Terra.
Humans from this world are no longer referred to as Terrans or Earthlings.
They are known as Solomani—meaning “Men of Sol” (“Sol” being the name of
Earth’s sun). And, if you count the current year by the ancient Solomani
calendar, the year is 5623 AD—the 57th century, in ancient Earth terms.
For an age, the Solomani believed themselves to be the only intelligent life in
existence. They experienced a rude change in their culture when they
discovered otherwise. As they took to the stars, the Solomani, like so many
species before them, began to colonize other worlds. At first, they settled
their solar system, and then, as their technology developed, allowing them to
push out into the void, they set foot on worlds in other star systems.
They discovered other intelligent life—alien life.
And, they discovered that some of the aliens were human!
The Solomani year was 2096 AD. Terran explorers—men from the small, fledgling
grouping of Solomani planets--made contact with another race of humans, humans
calling themselves Vilani.
But that shock—carrying with it ramifications in religion and eons of
scientific theory that the Terran society and culture would barely overcome—was
reflected as a simple Solomani facial tick when compared to the discovery that
the Vilani already controlled an interstellar empire.
The Vilani called their empire the Ziru Sirka, meaning “Grand Empire of Stars”,
and it was so vast and awe-inspiring that it took years to travel across, even
in the fastest jump-capable starships of the time.
The Ziru Sirka—what history refers to as the First Imperium—predated the
Solomani jump out from Terra by some 1500 standard years.
“When the Solomani were just beginning to explore the
use of iron, the Vilani were exploring the galaxy.”
The Vilani empire had existed since 473 AD on the Solomani calendar, and the
Grand Empire of Stars stood poised to swallow the pitiful number of systems the
Solomani had settled as a river swallowing a few pebbles that fall in its path.
The Interstellar Wars.
The Solomani and the Vilani became co-habitants in the space around Earth. The
Vilani made initiatives to draw the Solomani into the Ziru Sirka, and the
Solomani resisted.
War broke out. Fiercely independent, the Solomani defied efforts to have their
culture swallowed by the humans-not-from-Earth. But, the Vilani leaders on
Vland, the Ziru Sirka capital, looked at the Terrans with little more than mild
curiosity. The pitiful number of Terran systems were but just one more client
state of the great, star-spanning empire of the Vilani.
For close to two centuries, the relations between the Vilani and the Terran
Confederation (as Solomani Space had come to be known), were typified by a
number wars fought along the Ziru Sirka’s rimward border.
Communication within the Grand Empire of Stars was slow, and Vilani culture
emphasized decision by committee—a stark contrast to the culture of the
Solomani, where individual initiative is lauded and communication distances
within the much smaller Terran Confederation were extremely shorter.
The Solomani fought a guerilla war, on many different fronts, followed by
peace, then war, then peace, then war again. The Vilani leaders regarded the
Interstellar Wars as little more than a regional problem—where issues in other
parts of the enormous empire drew priority.
And over this 189 year period, the people of the Solomani and the Vilani
mingled. A great diaspora from Earth ensued, and Terrans, like the Chosen
People, spread out from Earth, planting themselves on distant planets.
The Rule of Man.
218 standard years after first contact between the Solomani and the Vilani, one
of the most confounding hiccups in history occurred.
The Solomani had saturated the rimward systems of the Ziru Sirka. Many of them
came to power on Vilani held worlds. The two cultures blended. Solomani
influence soared, and the Vilani were hampered by the slow, meticulous decision
process characteristic of their culture.
In a blink of an eye, just 15 years after the end of the last Interstellar War
between the two peoples, the Solomani came to power. The Ziru Sirka fell.
A Solomani empire referred to the Rule of Man was born. It was the same
empire—just under new leadership, even though Solomani rule is referred to, in
history, as the Second Imperium.
The men of Earth, from the tiny collection of stars, had defeated the might of
the Grand Empire of Stars.
David had slew Goliath.
The Long Night.
The Rule of Man was characterized by rebirth but little growth of the Second
Imperium. Under Vilani rule, the First Imperium had floundered, stagnated, in
both growth and technological development. The Solomani fought to change that
characteristic of the empire, but it was a difficult battle. The Vilani system
had been entrenched for close to 2000 years. The Solomani experience with
governing an interstellar government was under 200 years—and never had the
Terrans ruled an empire as vast as the Imperium.
It was a miracle the Solomani became governors of the largest star-empire in
existence. And, it was inevitable they would loose it.
Nobody foresaw just how bad the new rulers would be for the Second Imperium.
Where the Vilani were stagnant and rigid, the Solomani were inexperienced and
naive.
The first indication of the inability of the Solomani came when it was apparent
the new nobility would be unable to persuade their own brethren to accept
membership within the Second Imperium. Solomani and Vilani people merged
during the 428 year period known as the Rule of Man. Over the generations,
Solomani/Vilani culture became one—to the point where a distinction between the
two races of Humaniti was no longer made on some worlds of the Imperium.
The Solomani of the Terran region of space despised what some of their people
had become—loosing themselves in an alien culture, and the Terran Confederation
remained independent (albeit sympathetic) of their cousins of the Second
Imperium.
But the men of the Terran Confederation could not prevent what would befall all
of Humaniti at the hands of the new inexperienced Imperial rulers.
Over the four centuries of Solomani rule, technology subsided. Regions of the
Imperium gradually lost touch with the rest of the whole. Border wars were
dealt with by persons inexperienced with interstellar government.
The Second Imperium fell apart.
The Rule of Man was over.
And, the Long Night had begun.
For over 2000 years, the Imperium existed. Created and guided by Vilani for
1600 years, the Solomani destroyed it in just over 400 years.
The following 2000 years, there was no Imperium. The Solomani government
crumbled. Pirates fed on interstellar shipping like never before because of
inept Solomani policy and enforcement. Interstellar trade eventually came to a
standstill. The net growth of industrial output throughout the empire was
negative. Factories closed faster than new ones could open.
This black time marked a pull-back from space by virtually all humans in
Vilani-dominated space. The self-defeating nature of interstellar piracy
eliminated itself as a major threat—eventually, there just were no cargo ships
to prey upon.
What was left of Imperial interstellar trade was taken over by other
star-faring races, although only on an intermittent basis. Aslan traders
wandered through the rimward sectors of the former Rule of Man territory.
Vargr traders visited—and sometimes raided—the coreward sectors.
Some small human governments retained their starship technology and served
their own worlds, but other Imperial planets fell into dark ages. Some were
plagued by wars brought on by massive inflation, scarce food, nill purchasing
power, and non-communication outside their solar systems.
The Imperium was plunged back in time, 4000 years, to the conditions the Vilani
endured when originally growing the empire.
Eventually, though, light dawned on the Long Night.
Over this multi-generational period, worlds did reach out to contact their
neighbors. Federations, Republics, and other small interstellar unions
emerged. Interstellar trade within one union of star systems merged with new
markets in other interstellar unions.
Small human governments emerged, connected themselves, grew bigger.
Until one—the Sylean Federation—reached out its hand, provided by a man born of
the union between a Solomani father and a Vilani mother, establishing the Third
Imperium.
That was over 1000 years ago. By the Terran calendar, it was the year 4518
AD. Cleon I declared himself emperor, established a new dating system (the one
we use today), and a campaign was begun to recapture all of the member worlds
lost after the fall of the Rule of Man.
Some 500 years passes, but the former Imperium was restored—and it grew, larger
than ever before, thanks to the establishment of the Imperial Interstellar
Scout Service and the aggressive efforts made by a long line of strong handed
emperors.
Today, after 1105 years of membership in the Third Imperium, Vilani and
Solomani are indistinguishable. In the middle classes, traditionally both
geographically and socially mobile, the Vilani/Solomani distinction has become
meaningless. Extensive intermarriage has blended the two, and the tendency,
during the Rule of Man, for wealthy Vilani to adopt Solomani surnames has
further made fine distinctions of lineage difficult to define and trace.
Initially, the Third Imperium was dominated by the Solomani—a result of the
Solomani dominated Sylean Federation, and, to a lesser extent, the influence of
the Solomani during the Rule of Man. But, today, most citizens of the empire
refer to themselves as Imperials, members of the species known as Humani.
Terra is now a member-world of the Third Imperium, but the Terran Confederation
still exists, as an independent empire, now calling itself the Solomani
Confederation. When the term Solomani is used today to describe a being, it is
understood as a term describing a human from this independent state—not an
Imperial citizen.
The Solomani have moved their homeworld to a planet called Home, and there is
much friction between the Third Imperium and the Solomani Confederation over
the ownership of Earth.
The Ancients & The Solomani Hypothesis.
Since first contact was made with the Vilani, the collective Solomani
consciousness wondered at the impossibility of another human race developing on
a planet other than Earth. There were many types of species within and beyond
the Imperial borders, but the chance that an exact species had evolved on two
different worlds was mind boggling. Scientists were stymied for over 2500
years.
About 100 years after the establishment of the Third Imperium, during the
growth and recapture period, investigations were made on Vland, homeworld of
the Vilani and the former capital of the Ziru Sirka. The Imperial scientists
found that it was an impossibility that the Vilani had evolved on Vland. The
planet’s ecological system ensured that a human could not have come from the
world.
In addition, Solomani archeologists discovered that pyramids, like the Egyptian
structures on Earth, had been found on other planets in the Imperium. The
Vilani had always known this, but it was not until the Solomani came to power
that notice was taken of the galactic coincidence.
Similar constructions, like the stone “heads” of Easter Island and the strange
circle of stones known as Stonehenge, were found as well, and it became clear
that the ancient superstitions of aliens visiting Earth when Humaniti was in
its infancy were true—however shocking that may be.
Until the Third Imperium was established, there existed no satisfactory
explanation for the many interfertile human races found on different worlds
(many races other than the Solomani and the Vilani). Numerous theories on
man’s origins had been proposed, but none had gained complete acceptance.
Evidence was gathered, and a startling revelation was unleashed upon all
Humaniti, Solomani and Vilani alike: An ancient, star-faring race of
lizard-like people did indeed visit Earth before humans recorded history.
Earth was indeed the birthplace of Humaniti. And the Ancients, as the ancient
lizard-aliens have come to be known, took some unknown interest in the species
and seeded humans throughout this section of the galaxy—where humans have
adapted, and thrived, and thought themselves evolved on the worlds on which
they were planted.
This theory was unleashed on the galaxy in 114, by the Imperial calendar, and
it has become known as the Solomani Hypothesis.
Not much more has been discovered about the Ancients since that revelation,
over a thousand years ago, but evidence of the Ancients’ existence has been
found.
It is known that the Ancients wielded the power of extremely high
technology—technology much higher than any attained by any species known to
exist today. The Ancients are actually credited with genetically uplifting
species—actually forcing evolution on a species artificially! It is even
hypothesized that the alien, canine-descended Vargr are a product of Ancient
genetic evolution. Vargr DNA measures, almost exactly, as DNA from various
species of dogs on Terra (although a Vargr would never agree to that finding).
What little evidence of the Ancients that has been found indicates that the
pre-historic aliens dominated this section of the galaxy—and that they
destroyed themselves in a genocidal interstellar war. For what purpose, it is
not known.
The alien species known as the Droyne—small, winged, lizard-like aliens
incapable of flight, devoid of an interstellar empire of their own—are thought
to be the descendants of the Ancients today. It is commonly accepted that the
Droyne are a race that is in the eons-long process of rebuilding itself after
the largest holocaust history has ever known.
This is the time, the universe, the culture that the game is set in.
The year is 1105, and your characters are citizens of the Third Imperium.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:49:12 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Standard Imperial Culture (or: nobles, rednecks, and bwaps, oh my!)
"Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net> wrote
> Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it?
> I've seen a picture on a website somewhere detailing the different
> "cultural regions of the Imperium"[1]. If there are different cultural
> regions are they described somewhere?
The MT Library data describes some of them. Some of them have
been (non canonically) expanded upon elsewhere such as my own
efforts to portray the Darmine (not currently on a web page).
> [1] Does anyone know where this map is from,
The inside back cover (page 102) of the MT Referees manual)
> so that I might begin
> reading more original source materials and bring my Traveller knowledge
> up to par (and stop possibly bothering the list with inappropriate
> questions as is my apprehension)? :)
Canon says that during the occupation Terran Naval officers occupied
key posts in the Vilani bureaucracy which was otherwise retained
intact [History of the Imperium, from Imperium, p7]
Some minor races which were culturally repressed by the Vilani
returned to their own culture in the Ramshackle Empire (see MT
Library data entry on the Darmine for example).
Canon establishes that the pocket empires of the minor races
were conquered by 175 in the Pacification campaigns.
See the MT Ref's Manual p 102 "Cultural Regions of the Imperium"
Regions which historically developed independent cultures and which
have retained their cultural identity under the Imperium"
Vland - 5 subsectors in Vland
Antares - 3 subsectors in Antares
Lancia - 5 subsectors, 3 in Gushmege, 1 each in Corridor & Dagudahaag
Sylea - 8 subsectors, 6 in Core & 2 in Fornast
Illelish - 4 subsectors in Ilelish
Darmine - 4 subsectors in Zarushagar
Vega - 2 subsectors in Solomani Rim
Vland is a major race
Antares seems to be semiautonomous and just a culture
Lancia is a cultural offshoot of Vland
Sylea is a minor human race and a culture
Illelish is a culture
Darmine is a minor human race
Vega is a minor non human race
[all from MT]
_If_ you chose to accept the map as a definitive list of
large (multiple subsectors) cultural regions in the Imperium)
you are still free to create smaller cultural regions, non
contiguous cultural regions, cultures without a specifically
defined territory (such as the Rom, or gypsies), etc.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:59:05 -0500
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>
> Hello Folks,
> Somehow, I suspect that my chances of getting my hands on Deneb via DGP's
> stuff is vanishingly small. Question for Loren:
>
> Since it seems that DPG's stuff is off limits for publication, will SJGames
> publish a *new* Deneb sector?
>
The sector data that DGP used is located in the Missouri Archives. Several of these sectors are known to be flawed, but AFAIK Deneb wasn't one of them. Furthermore, this data matches* the maps from 'Atlas of the Imperium,' a canonical GDW-published product (to be included in FFE009, BTW). On the message boards at farfuture.net Marc has expressed a desire to clean up & regularize this (Atlas/archive) data for publication as part of T5.
None of which is to say that SJG won't publish a version of Deneb different from DGP or the theoretical T5, but I'd imagine it would still be based at very least on 'Atlas of the Imperium.'
Trent
*I'm not entirely sure which came first, the maps or the UWPs.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:07:11 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: The spirit of the game
Mr. Whipsnade presents the Ether with:
> Ahhh... A sunny day in the bleachers. Two dogs with 'slaw and a cold
>beer. Peanuts. Keeping your own box score on the program. The organ
>playing "Charge" when there's a man on second and another at bat.
>Rally caps. Cheese in the kitchen and a yakker for a kudo. Chin music. A
>ball hit so far there "shoulda been a stewardess on it". The Olde Towne
>Team taking their usual September swoon. 1918 and counting...
Ahh...that is truly the spirit of Baseball. It's just not "Baseball" with
noodles served in the stands, and Coaches politely disagreeing with the
Umpires.
The technique may be good, but the "proper" spirit just isn't there....
Some folks hold the attitude that even in losing, their team is the "more
correct" team.
ObTrav: Your gallant band of Adventurers (in between Ethically Challenged
Merchant jobs), are hired as security for the Sub-Sector finals.
It's the two big rivals and the blood is running hot.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one.
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:20:34 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Hello Folks,
Not to sound like I wanted Deneb to be redone per se <grin>. If the Data
on the Deneb sector can be reproduced without running afoul of DGP, I'm all
for it. It is just a little frustrating when you look at the X-boat routes
ending at the edge of Spinward Marches and don't know what lies beyond.
I've got the Survey book for T4, so the positions of stars is available for
much of the Imperium. What I don't have is the Corridor or Deneb Sectors...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:22:32 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: Sports in TRAVELLER
There is a good example of VR combat sports in the anthology "Warriors of
Blood and Dream", edited by the Late Master Roger Zelazny.
The story is called "True Grits", by Jack Haldeman II.
VR combat allowed full contact, no pads Karate fights "to the death."
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else
wants `em.
"Blend 'B', meanwhile, is a PROUD blend, defiant yet petulant...a blend
that grabs you, shakes you by the collar and cries, 'ACCEPT me, damn you,
or turn me away-BUT FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T POLLUTE ME WITH NON-DAIRY
CREAMER!'" - Tripp Biscuit while coffee tasting.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:25:19 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Strange sports
>Problem with a Carribean League is most of the people down there, being
>remnants
>of the Vilin^H^H^H^H British Empire, play the much better summer game of
>Cricket...A refined game for refined people don'cher know? A lot less frenzied
>running about and more time to drink beer...
I don't pretend to understand Cricket, but the bats are cool.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ Opinions Mine!
"Firm footwork is the fount from which springs all
offense and defense." -- Giacomo diGrasse, 1570
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:27:13 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Traveller Sports
Alan Bradley puts into the Ether:
>The K'kree play Rugby. A lot.
They also like a game much like Polo.
Just don't ask what they are using for the ball.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:08:34 -0500
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium
>Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:01:22 +0100
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium
>
>Christopher Thrash writes:
>>The full citation reads:
>>
>>"Ranking above duke/duchess are two levels not reflected in social
>>standing: prince/princess or king/queen are titles used by actual rulers of
>>worlds. The title of emperor/empress is used by the ruler of an empire of
>>several worlds."
>>
>>Book 3, p. 22 (1977)
>>
>>In other words:
>>
>>Social Title
>>(G) Prince/Princess or King/Queen
>>(H) Emperor/Empress
>>
>>It is clear from context that this system was intended for what we would
>>now consider minor pocket empires, not the Third Imperium of the Official
>>Traveller Universe (which didn't exist at this point).
>
>What is clear is that social level A-F were planetary titles. The Duke of
Alpha
>Continent, not the Duke of Regina.
...in a setting where the highest level of interstellar state is "an empire
of several worlds," not 11,000. The creation of the Official Traveller
Universe changed several assumptions underlying the rules: the social
structure was stretched to accommodate the vastly increased scope of the
setting. There is nothing inherently contradictory about this.
>>The revisions of 1981-2, including the article in Supp. 11, explicitly
>>change this picture:
>
>It changed it all right (which is what I said in the first place), but it
>didn't consider the consequences of the change. I don't know how to put more
>clearly than I already did: By changing social level A-F from planetary to
>interstellar nobility, the social level system lost an entire slice of
society.
>And IMO a very important slice, as witness the fact that for almost 20 years
>Traveller authors have described and used Imperial nobles as having powers
more
>or less equivalent to their 17th or 18th Century European namesakes.
The social levels B-F were changed from planetary nobility in a setting of
pocket empires, to interstellar nobility in an empire spanning thousands of
worlds. Arguably, they became relatively *less* powerful, not more so.
>>"At the discretion of the referee, a noble may have some ancestral lands or
>>fiefs, and may actually have some ruling power."
>>
>>Book 1, p. 9 (1981)
This is the key point: the amount of real power (as opposed to presumed
social precedence) associated with player character noble titles is set at
the sole discretion of the referee.
>>The kicker, and the clue that you are dealing with no ordinary
>>noble, is the suffix or fief used in the style of address.
>
>Yes, but Traveller does not _treat_ them as extraordinary nobles. The CGS
hands
>out noble titles to every Tom, Dick, and Horatio in the navy with a little
dice
>luck and to several other careers too. Imperial nobles bum around the
universe
>with not a care in the world and often no money either.
Those are titles of achievement, which (once again, *explicitly*)
"customarily carry no special reward beyond the noble title itself." (Supp.
11, p. 35)
Canon does make distinctions among nobles, based on real power:
"The Baronet obviously has much power and influence, and should be treated
with great care and caution." (Adv. 11, p. 48) Baronet Rosa Demetriou's
connections and antecedents were described in detail on preceeding pages
(ibid., pp. 45-48). Similarly, Marc hault-Oberlindes, Baron Feri, and
Marquis Leonard Bolden-Tukera of Aramis (TTA, p. 22) have their power bases
clearly identified, and are presented as forces to be respected.
Contrast this with Professor Sir Gnetus Jerrold Vicervis (Adv. 2, p. 37)
about whom no such caution is offered. His title is presumably for either
achievement in science, or his position as research station director; in
any case, it carries no other real power. Sergei hault-Oberlindes, Marc's
son, winds up in jail for assaulting a cop (JTAS #1, p. 13) and eventually
commands the flagship of the Oberlindes Line (AHL rules booklet, pp.
41-43), but is apparently accorded no special deference.
Finally, I draw your attention to Charles de Batz-Castelmore, Monsieur
d'Artagnan, whose literary namesake left to make his fortune in Paris with
just a broken-down horse, his father's sword, and a letter of introduction.
There have certainly been periods of history (or heroic fiction, at any
rate) where noble titles did not automatically confer either great wealth
or great power.
I think it just as likely that Travellers -- the tiny fraction of the total
Imperium involved in interstellar affairs, on any level -- look down on all
purely local, world-bound citizens as "wogs". Player character social
status would therefore represent _Imperial_ status, with on-world status
ignored as essentially irrelevant, much the way imperialists of the
18th-19th century condescended to local potentates: an outward show of
respect, with little substance. Important local figures would have a place
in the Imperial hierarchy (titles for service), however, which would have
to be respected.
This has the advantage of explaining another Traveller anomoly: bands of
tatty PC's are hired for important missions simply because they are
Travellers ("Our kind -- can't trust the locals to do a proper job, don't
you know."); call it "the Travellers' Burden." Imperial noble status,
noblesse oblige, and code of honor are merely the epitome of this system.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:31:01 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Strange sports
On 22 Feb 2001, at 21:25, Mark Urbin wrote:
>
> >Problem with a Carribean League is most of the people down there, being
> >remnants
> >of the Vilin^H^H^H^H British Empire, play the much better summer game of
> >Cricket...A refined game for refined people don'cher know? A lot less frenzied
> >running about and more time to drink beer...
>
> I don't pretend to understand Cricket, but the bats are cool.
A funny thing - most of my friends are cricket fans, with only the most minimal
knowledge of baseball, but they all own baseball bats, many those junior 3/4
size types.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:38:56 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
At 4:32 PM +1100 2/22/01, Timothy Little wrote:
>Doug C. wrote:
> >
> > Maybe I'm missing something... (I frequently do...)
> >
> > Fuel is LHyd...
> > Water is H2O...
> > Ignoring atomic wieghts/volumes (of which i know less than nothing)
>
>That's the thing -- water molecules pack closer together than hydrogen
>molecules. Atoms aren't hard balls that take up a fixed amount of
>space, and molecules aren't really solid shapes either.
Actually, to a first approximation, molecules tend to take up about
the same amount of space. However, the first approximation is off
for hydrogen.
If you want to store the most hydrogen, I tend to go with as big a
hydrocarbon as you can handle. Of course eventualy you get into a
solid. But even there larger molecules will waste less space on void
spaces....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3731
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Traveller-digest Friday, February 23 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3732
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:20:28 -0700
Re: Introduction to Traveller
Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: H2 vs H2O
Re: The spirit of the game
RE: Don't run...
RE: What could go wrong?
Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it? IYTU?
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: Democracy Now!
SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: Democracy Now!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:19:05 +0000
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Hal,
If you want I'm sure I can scan the data/ maps and email them to you
For the data check out
http://traveller.mu.org/archive/General/sector.dgp/CORRIDOR
http://traveller.mu.org/archive/General/sector.dgp/DENEB
Doug :-)
> hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> >
> > Hello Folks,
> > Somehow, I suspect that my chances of getting my hands on Deneb via DGP's
> > stuff is vanishingly small. Question for Loren:
> >
> > Since it seems that DPG's stuff is off limits for publication, will SJGames
> > publish a *new* Deneb sector?
> >
> > Hal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:20:28 -0700
From: "A. Batishko" <abatish@utah-inter.net>
Subject: Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:20:28 -0700
Excellent. That will do quite nicely. Thanks for the help.
Andrew
> From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
> Subject: Re: Introduction to Traveller
>
> "A. Batishko" wrote:
>
> > I don't live anywhere near the guy, so I need to either e-mail him
> > something, or give him a url he can check out...
> >
> > Andrew
>
> Andrew,
>
> Will this help you?
<thwack>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:51:33 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Introduction to Traveller
Oh my little stars and comets... (Double points to those who remember where
that came from... :)
Ken,
Thank you.
William
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:04:56 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
On 22 Feb 2001, at 19:52, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Hello Folks,
> Somehow, I suspect that my chances of getting my hands on Deneb via DGP's
> stuff is vanishingly small. Question for Loren:
This is the biggest reason why I think that the DGP material should be
removed from the body of Traveller canon (sooner rather than later).
> Since it seems that DPG's stuff is off limits for publication, will SJGames
> publish a *new* Deneb sector?
Large portions of Deneb were also covered in the Regency Sourcebook for
TNE, which is somewhat easier to get hold of than the DGP material.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:04:56 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
On 22 Feb 2001, at 19:04, Doug C. wrote:
> I truly hope not!
> I for one have been using the excellent DGP Deneb material for CT for
> MANY.... years.
I truly hope they do. The sooner the darn DGP copyright "problem" is
solved the better.
> My current campaign uses the DGP material for Deneb/Corridor/Trojan
> reach & Reft sectors. The material without the MT/Rebellion adjustments
> of course, as my current campaign date is 1112
Yes, it can be quite a shock when the Traveller Canon Police (TCP) burst
down your door brandishing fully automatic penguins and demand you
hand over all your non-canon material :*>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:04:56 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
On 22 Feb 2001, at 10:40, Glenn Goffin wrote:
> >From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
> >It being in French was just an affectation of the English upper classes.
> Remember that the English upper classes came from France -- Norman
> Conquest, 1066, and all that. (Well, actually, they came from Scandinavia by
> way of a long stopover in Normandy where they learned French, became
> Christians, and stopped doing the bloody eagle.) Anyway, the English upper
> classes spoke and wrote in French until about Elizabethan times. Some of them
> still do, I understand.
Have you ever listened to Shoolboy French, it rivals some of the obscure
American Indian languages for security during wartime :*>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:04:56 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
On 22 Feb 2001, at 20:59, trentfs@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> The sector data that DGP used is located in the Missouri Archives. Several of
> these sectors are known to be flawed, but AFAIK Deneb wasn't one of them.
> Furthermore, this data matches* the maps from 'Atlas of the Imperium,' a
> canonical GDW-published product (to be included in FFE009, BTW). On the
> message boards at farfuture.net Marc has expressed a desire to clean up &
> regularize this (Atlas/archive) data for publication as part of T5.
Yes, but that only gets you the raw UWPs.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:35:50 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
> Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:09:49 +1100
> From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
> Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>
> Thom Jones-Low wrote:
> > Do you know one (or more) good introductory reference websites
> > for General Relativity?
>
> Not offhand. The sci.physics.relativity FAQ
> http://www.public.iastate.edu/~physics/sci.physics/faq/relativity.html
>
> has some references, but they are all to books or journal articles.
>
Thanks.
> > The speed is relative (in theory) to the ship in the other
> > system who is going to try and jump back to catch you before you
> > leave.
>
> Does that mean that if no such ship exists, then there is no
> tearing-up of jump space? And that if some ship, somewhere, is
> travelling at 1000 km/s then every ship using reactionless thrusters
> tears jumpspace to shreds across a whole sector?
>
> > stellar relative motion is on the order of 10 km/s (IIRC),
>
> Stars have relative speeds of up to 200 km/s, according to a survey of
> stellar proper motions about the Sun.
>
> > > I'm sure you're already aware that you can get time travel without
> > > reactionless thrusters.
> >
> > Yes. The task of accelerating a to 1% the speed of light
> > without the use of reactionless thrusters is very much harder
> > however.
>
> This isn't necessary. With jump-4 engines, 0.15% of c will suffice.
> If you have jump-6 engines available, 0.1% of c will do. In fact, a
> combination of planetary orbits and stellar proper motions may well
> suffice by itself without resorting to any sort of thrusters.
>
The theory is (was) based upon two assumptions. First the planetary
motion was up to 50 km/s, and stellar relative motion was similar, and
the velocity of starships would not usually need to be much higher
either, giving the usually velocity of a given starship compared to any
other object in the local stellar space of up to 300 km/s. Second, the
effects of relativity would not begin to be apparent until the relative
velocity reached 1% or 2% of the speed of light (3,000 km/s to 6,000
km/s).
The simple fact of having a velocity did nothing to jumpspace, but
continually accelerating a starship (or other mass) to 10 times the
normal use velocity, thus dumping the large quantity of energy required
to satisfy the Conservation of Momentum (and other laws of physics) into
jumpspace, would affect it.
However, as you have pointed out and I have discovered, the general use
velocity of starships may be as high as 1000 km/s without any
extraordinary effort and the relativity effects do begin to occur at 500
km/s.
This can still work, if you are willing accept some occasional
weirdness. And more handwaves on the nature of jumpspace, like assuming
that jumpspace only connects those systems with a low relative velocity
(say 50-75 km/s). It is Canon that jumpspace does not connect all star
systems after all. But not with the velocity/accleration cap.
The classic example of the abuse of relativity and FTL is the example I
presented above: Ship A jumps from System 1 to System 2, where Ship B is
waiting and moving at high relative velocity to Ship A. Ship B then
jumps back to System 1 and arrives before Ship A leaves.
Even if Ship A arrives with zero relative velocity to Ship B, if Ship B
can accelerate to a high enough relative velocity to ship A, Ship B can
then still jump back and catch Ship A before it leaves System 1.
Correct?
In Traveller, using Jump 3, achieving the requisite velocity takes
about 4.8 hours at 6G (easily achievable by most warships). This adds an
interesting twist to strategy. You no longer want to use long jumps when
you are jumping into a system where you expect combat. Or if not
possible, you need to delay the enemy forces long enough so they can't
jump out and surprise your forces.
This would make a really twisted TCS variant but modeling it would
require a computer to keep track of it all.
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:12:56 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
David P. Summers wrote:
> If you want to store the most hydrogen, I tend to go with as big a
> hydrocarbon as you can handle.
The biggest one I could find offhand (hexadecane, or cetane), has a
hydrogen density of 116 kg/m^3 (1.62 ton/dton). Concentrated ammonia
solution has the same hydrogen density, but more useful "waste"
products. Liquid ammonia has a hydrogen density of 120 kg/m^3 -- the
best H density I could find for any reasonable common compound.
Water has hydrogen density of 112 kg/m^2, and the small difference in
hydrogen density is probably far outweighed by the ease of obtaining
it and handling it, and its usefulness in other respects.
Unfortunately I lost the original post, but someone commented that
such fuel would be useful only for making multiple jumps. I don't
think so. I see two possibilities:
1) You need all the fuel at once to enter jumpspace, and trivial
amounts to none while in jump. This means that the ship need not
store its fuel while in jump. Costs are greatly reduced since you
don't need large tanks capable of long-term cryogenic storage of LH2,
and less of the ship's volume is taken up by the tanks.
2) Most of the hydrogen goes into maintaining the jump bubble. In
this case, you can refine the fuel as you go, and again save
significant space and cost by not needing long-term cryogenic storage
of LH2. In this case though, you still need storage tanks for H2O or
whatever.
You would probably still have a small reserve tank of LH2 to smooth
out fluctuations in supply from the fuel proessors, and of course at
least one or two backup processors. One dton of fuel processor
including power plant slice etc. can output 1300 dtons of fuel over
the course of the week in jump.
Either way, you save a lot by using unrefined fuel instead of LH2.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 04:25:51 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: The spirit of the game
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
"Ahh...that is truly the spirit of Baseball. It's just not
"Baseball" with noodles served in the stands, and Coaches politely
disagreeing with the Umpires. The technique may be good, but the "proper"
spirit just isn't there....
"Some folks hold the attitude that even in losing, their team is the
"more correct" team."
Mr. Urbin,
I have been to a half dozen games in Japan and found the fans to be
just as spirited as the ones in Fenway. You'd like it very much. They
simply express their fervor differently.
You should see the home made banners, drum and horns groups, and abuse
heape on the umps! The game is more like the National League game, even
with their use of the DH.
At least their players don't spit on the umps.
As for a "correct team", the Sox have always been more correct than
those dratted Yankees and all the Series they bought.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:17:33 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Don't run...
Kurt Feltenberger wrote :
> At 06:27 PM 02/22/2001 +1300, you wrote:
> >Tod Glenn wrote :
> > > Frequently an army sniper, equiped with a M21 with
> > > STANO sight and sionics supressor was dropped, with his
> > ^^^^^^
> > > team, into a target rich environment just as night fell.
> >
> >An interesting misprint in the context of the TML...
>
> Not a misprint. Sionics was (is still?) a producer of
> suppressors for weapons.
Oh, sorry, I thought it was meant to say "sonics".
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:29:12 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: RE: What could go wrong?
I wrote:
>Better yet, the noise is heard from the ventilation system, but cannot
>be located because it is not coming from any ventilation equipment. It
>is being transmitted through a mechanical connection to the ventialtion
>system in a inaccessable location and is amplified and echoed by the
>ductwork material and configuration. The faulty part sounds very
>different in the room it is in.
>
>This should drive the party nuts trying to find the cause.
>
>Charles H
>
>P.S. Repair solution: repair the malfunctioning part of the different
>system, add more supports and tiedowns to the ventilation ducts.
Bruce Replied:
>Gee! WHY does that sound so realistic, with a detailed repair
diagnosis? Must
>have driven you NUTS 'till you found it, Charles...
Actually I created it ; )
Running compressed air lines in manufacturing building. The
air-compressor had a sticky valve which caused a little noise above the
normal (which you could not tell at the compressor as they are very
noisy). Also various noises of the air compressor were transmitted
through the piping. The air line was held in place at appropreate
intervals rubber coated pipe clamps, but I had no place to locate a
clamp as I got near the air-conditioning duct, so I attached a rigid
clamp between the airline and the thin sheet metal hanger to
air-conditioning duct. That duct work did not extend to my office so I
was not worried about it. But it drove the people in the ajoining
offices nuts. None of the noises transmitted through the pipe to the
duct work sounded anything like and air compressor. After several calls
to the air-conditioning service people, the noise disappeared as
mysteriously as it had appeared.(I moved the mounting location)
Charles
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:59:18 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
I did.
http://www.loc.gov/copyright/ For US copyright law
http://www.uspto.gov For Trademark law
bloo
Peter Newman wrote:
> "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com> wrote
>
> > before you accept
> > as fact anything anyone says, go look it up for yourself.
>
> Bloo could you suggest an appropriate source I might use
> to look up the factualness of the above assertion? :)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:16:23 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it? IYTU?
Rob Davenport wrote:
>Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it?
>IYTU?
<snip>
>(OK, so there ended up being 14 actual questions, but I guess all but
>the first are somewhat rhetorical.)
Inresponse to all your questions. YES
This is one place I like to compair the Imperium to the US (this should
apply to many parts of the world, or the world in general). There is a
major overriding culture that can be seen on ALL imperial worlds (lets
call it the "standard imperial culture"). The level that this culture
is seen on a world varies between just the portmaster at a Class E
starport to entire worlds. The backwaters, underdeveloped, and/or low
tech worlds tend to show the least "standard imperial culture", while
the high tech, well developed, heavily traveled worlds tend to show the
most. The "standard imperial culture" is maintained by the Nobles, news
media, x-boat, etc.
In addition to the "standard imperial culture", there are major regional
cultures, normally based around pre-Imperial empires (i.e. Vilani,
solamani, vegan, etc) (see any officially published contact articles and
many unofficial). But these major regional cultures may also show up in
unlikely places (several megacorps are of Vilani origin and may have
spread and maintained the Vilani culture elsewhere).
There will be cultures that are entirely planet bound. those that wanted
to maintain thier culture or a faxsimale there of may have moved to a
location that would limit intrusion by other cultures (mostly
backwaters). there will be conclaves of differing cultures on the major
worlds (example any major US city has districts that have transplanted
cultures from around the world, this should be true of most major cities
around the world)
For examples, I would look at what ever region you live compair it to
national culture, as seen on TV and other media. And then look at what
ever backwater is near you, and then look at the big cities near you.
Most if not all big cities or metropolitan areas have enclaves inwhich
the majority of the inhabitants do not speak the national language,
these enclaves will have a different culture than the majority of the
surrounding area.
For example, the area that I live in has a mixture of US, Southern, and
Midwest cultures, plus I know of several enclaves of Mexican, Lao, and
Vietnamese. And I know that I have not even looked for others.
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:28:46 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Thom Jones-Low wrote:
> And more handwaves on the nature of jumpspace, like assuming that
> jumpspace only connects those systems with a low relative velocity
> (say 50-75 km/s). It is Canon that jumpspace does not connect all
> star systems after all.
I'd never realised that. Then, I don't have all the published
material either.
> Even if Ship A arrives with zero relative velocity to Ship B, if Ship B
> can accelerate to a high enough relative velocity to ship A, Ship B can
> then still jump back and catch Ship A before it leaves System 1.
> Correct?
Yes. The classic causilty-breaker.
> In Traveller, using Jump 3, achieving the requisite velocity takes
> about 4.8 hours at 6G (easily achievable by most warships). This adds an
> interesting twist to strategy. You no longer want to use long jumps when
> you are jumping into a system where you expect combat. Or if not
> possible, you need to delay the enemy forces long enough so they can't
> jump out and surprise your forces.
It's worse than that -- by a series of jumps, anyone with a starship
and reasonable thrusters can travel back in time any amount they like,
up to about 130 weeks backwards per 16 weeks of shipboard time with 2G
thrusters. The only limit on the ratio is the need to slow down to
refuel between jumps. The ship would reach 0.29c.
A special purpose super-Xboat ship could get up to 540 weeks into the
past of its own departure point for 7 weeks of ship time after
reaching 0.4c.
If you put a speed cap of 0.01c on thruster use, it drops to about a
4:1 ratio of time-travel/shipboard time (4.8 weeks into the past for
1.2 weeks of ship time).
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:52:15 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
> Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:18:53 +0000
> From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
>
> Actually you don't really have a democracy...
Not in the strict usage championed by Leonard but a government
that behaves in the manner of governments that we mostly refer to
in common usage as democracies. (Ie th USA, UK, France, etc.)
> A weirdly nor quite bi-cameral parlimentary republic...sort of... kind
> of reminds one of the Electoral college, eh?
Please don't be nasty. :-)
>
> I would suggest that electing a single representative per world, and
> then giving population based voting rights is addresses neither the
> concerns of the hi or Lo-Pop worlds. Functionally, one or two Hi-Pop
> systems WILL control the legislature, regardless of a geographical vote.
It takes a majority in plain terms (per rep) as well as a majority in terms
of represented sophonts to get anything through in my scheme. Perhaps
I didn't make that clear. Yes Hi-pop worlds will have the greatest power
per planet but smaller planets that band together can offset that greatly.
>
> A better alternative would be a bi-cameral house; Lower House w
> population based representation, and an upper house (the house of 'sober
> 2nd thought') would be geographically based.
But bi-cameral has been done to death. My Idea is to work both concepts
into a single body thereby cutting the required support staff in half at
least.
Of additional merit is the fact that my setup is quite gridlocky enough
without the additional stall factor of an additional chamber.
>
> Something along the lines of the Canadian (Commons & Senate) or British
> (Commons and Lords) Parliaments would be workable, especially if you are
> leaning toward a constitutional monarchy. The Lords could be used to
> give the existing Nobles something to do...
I was kind of looking at the nobles for the Judiciary (assuming the
revolution
would leave some vestige of respectability in the feudal institutions.)
Strip
the Barons of their financial holdings (or let them keep the loot and give
up
the title.) give them a generous salary and powdered wigs and you could
wind up with a quite effective (and *perhaps* unbiased) court system.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 02:10:35 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 21:25:57 -0800, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>
> >>Due to travel times involved a representative's term lasts untill
> >>his/her/it's replacement arrives. Special elections to replace
> >>reps who have left office early due to death, resignation,
> >>or election to higher parliaments will be held with the next
> >>regular election. leaving some seats open for a year or so.
> >
> >In an effort to forestall such an event happening, as a lot of
legislation
> >could be passed in that year, a delegation is sent, not just a
> >representative. Said Delegation has the Senator plus his runner up. By
> >law, said runner up may not be in the same vicinity as the
Representative.
> >Assassination aside, this should help keep a planet represented at all
times.
By my original scheme a world would actually have seven reps elected
one each year with a 7 year term. Perhaps the vote of an unseated or
incapacitated representative could be determined by majority vote of
the remaining reps from that world?
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 03:58:45 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
The Orcrist Firearms Foundry (a division of the Spinward Marches
Entertainment Group) proudly announces the first in a series of
cutting edge TL 10 small arms: The 20 mm Ghost.
This weapon is intended for the sniper in a mid to low tech
environment. With it's Impressive range and complete
sound and flash suppression it can deal death undetected
from afar. SMEG/OFF welcomes your coments and wishes
to be your small arms vendor of choice.
Ammo is a 19.99x15mm straight conventional round
Length=35mm Weight=38g Ea=2448joules BLa=10cm
Price per round: Ball=Cr1.52 DS=Cr3.04 HE=Cr3.04 HEAP=Cr4.56
Heavy barrel Length=23cm Weight=.69Kg Price=Cr276 E= 4039joules
Damage: Ball/DS=4 HE/HEAP=8
Penetration: Ball=2-3-nil DS=1-2-3 HE=nil HEAP=2-2-2
Light self loading SA receiver Length=20cm Weight=2.448Kg Price=Cr489.60
ROF=SA Recoil mod=.95
Wooden stock Length=25cm Weight=1Kg Price=Cr25
Short range: Ball=127m DS=152m HE/HEAP=95m
10 round box magazine Weight(empty)=.319Kg (loaded)=.699Kg Price(empty)=Cr10
Dual Optic/Laser sights Weight=.6Kg Price=Cr450
Short range: Ball=146m DS=175m HE/HEAP=109m
Bipod Weight=2.012Kg Price=Cr70.20 Recoil mod=.5
Short range: Ball= 190m DS=228m HE/HEAP=142m
Sound suppressor Length=41cm Weight=1.025Kg Price=Cr205
Counts as fully silenced
Long flash suppressor Length=28cm Weight=.28Kg Price=Cr28
Flash suppressed in all situations
Totals Length=137cm Weight(empty)=8.055Kg (loaded)=8.754Kg Price=Cr1529.80
Bulk=9 Recoil(without bipod)=3 (with bipod)=1
Designer notes.
Designed using FFS1.
I rated the Ammunition as conventional rather then mass produced military
on the theory that even though it's a military weapon it wouldn't see
general
service.
In the range calulation I substituted Ea for E as otherwise the range
gets a double boost due to barrel length (which doesn't make sense
to me.)
The original version of this design had a bolt action in order to
gain the extra few meters range but it seems more usefull to me
to have the SA fire rate. The bipod is included mostly because I
don't see a weapon this unwieldy being particularly aimable
without one (the range and recoil absorption is a bonus.)
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:12:50 +0200
From: Niko Mikkanen <niko.mikkanen@capslock.fi>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Hi all. I'm a newbie here, but it seems a good time to open my mouth a
little...
DaveShayne wrote:
> Penetration: Ball=2-3-nil DS=1-2-3 HE=nil HEAP=2-2-2
> Counts as fully silenced
>
> The original version of this design had a bolt action in order to
> gain the extra few meters range but it seems more usefull to me
> to have the SA fire rate. The bipod is included mostly because I
> don't see a weapon this unwieldy being particularly aimable
> without one (the range and recoil absorption is a bonus.)
>
> David Shayne
Umm, ok, here's the beef: How do you make the weapon hit anything on
long range, if it's subsonic? And how do you make it completely silent,
if it's supersonic: there's always going to be the crack of the sound
barrier breaking.
Also, I'm not sure how well DS and a silencer work together. Probably
once, and then the discarding part of the DS rips the silencer's guts
out.
A subsonic DS probably isn't even worth building in a weapon this small:
Such a light projectile at such a low velocity will have a negligible
range.
As to the SA versus Bolt Action: The reason most modern sniper rifles
(as opposed to, for example, marksman rifles) use BA because it's more
accurate: The movement of the bolt combined with usual looseness of a SA
design (there's always more room for movement of the shell casing within
a SA lock) will cause inaccuracy in long-range fire. The difference in
the game system is the few extra yards of range. In real life, it could
be the difference between a hit and a miss.
(A sidenote: I have only recently began playing Traveller, so I'm not
actually all that familiar with the game system. I'm approaching this
problem from the other end, the Real Life...)
Niko "GNiko" Mikkanen
- --
Television is chewing gum for the eyes.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:28:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
In mail you write:
> At 10:27 AM -0800 2/21/01, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>> >>And there may be a significant amount of actual history that
>> >>would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion. For
>> >>example, the United States of America until the invention of
>> > the telegraph.
>> >
>> > In fact the US didn't have the kind of travel times that the
>>Imperium faces.
>>
>>Oh? Check the travel times between California and the east coast back
>>before the railroad.
>
> <Shrug>
>
> The bulk of the US was within decent travel times and the railroad
> came shortly afterward (and the issue if communications, the
> telegraph was earlier than the railroad, but I don't know the date).
> Also, the times even for pony express wasn't bad either. Much better
> than in the Imperium.
The pony express operated for less than two years. MUCH less. The
telegraph and railroad replaced it. And I'm not certain but I don't
think the telegraph was all *that* far ahead of the railroad.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3732
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3733
Date: | 2/23/01 5:14:02 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Friday, February 23 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3733
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question
Re: Looking for a home
Re: What could go wrong?
Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Re: world series
Re: HTML gibberish
Re: The spirit of the game
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Attn.: Penguin-Lovers
Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: The spirit of the game
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
RE: What could go wrong?
RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:47:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question
In mail you write:
> On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 23:59:48 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
> Erickson) wrote:
>
>>No, the tranistion from "normal temp" to "complete iceage" was a
>>century or so. And the transition from "complete ice age" to "super
>>tropical" and then back to normal was also only a few 100 years.
>>
>>But the "complete ice age" and "normal" stages lasted tens of thousands
>>of years.
>
> I'll defer to your more accurate recollection. It was the transitions
> which were surprisingly rapid, not the overall oscillation itself.
I took special note because there could be planets in the Imperium
that've undergone either transition in recorded history. Hell, you
could have planets in the *middle* of such a transition.
But at the same time, once the transition happens, it *won't change for
longer than recorded history.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:50:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Looking for a home
In mail you write:
> Hello Folks,
> I've just started working on a map of the SPINWARD MARCHES using Campaign
> Cartographer. What I've done is to place the stars in their correct hex
> and all. Big deal right? <grin>. What I'm also doing is coloring in the
> star to represent the star type. Green for F class stars, Red for M class
> stars, Yellow for G class, Orange for K class.
>
> Question: what colors would people suggest I use for A class - Light Blue?
F should be white, with O and A being light blue.
Why? Because since green is *not* a possible color for a star, but it's
been used in *so* much bad SF, I get bugged when I see something that
even *implies* that stars are green.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:33:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: What could go wrong?
In mail you write:
> At least one computer programme whose interface module is incompletely
> translated from a language that none of the characters knows. (I once had
> a CAD package of German origin, which was fine except when you wanted to
> answer 'Yes' to a prompt you had to enter 'J' for 'Ja' instead of 'Y'!)
I had the "pleasure" of working with an engineer to convert some
GW-BASIC programs from English to German. That sort of thing kept
popping up even after many run throughs. I finally found the last one
after several weeks. They had some *very* strange logic in those
programs.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:55:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
In mail you write:
>> We've just ordered the Shiny New Computer(tm), and once that is
>> running, I am planning on a serious facelift for the site.
>>
>> 866Mhz Pentium III, 256Meg of Memory, 20 Gig HD, two CD bays,
>> one 48x standard, one write-to drive.. man, I'm in Nerdvana!
>
> <Envy> I'm still stuck on a 200Mhz Pentium MMX with 64Meg of
> momory. However, I do have a 30Gig HD, a 12Gig HD, an 8Gig HD,
> two 2Gig HDs, a 1Gig HD, a 1Gig Jazz drive (with 9 disks), a DVD-
> ROM drive, a CD burner, a Zip drive, 3.5" *and* 5.25" floppy
> drives, the system box is so big it has its own caster wheels,
> and the 21" monitor chucks out enough heat to warm my flat in the
> winter months ... but it still only pootles along at 200Mhz.
Well, the box I'm in the process of building is an AMD K6-2-500 (the
motherboard can't handle anything faster). 320 meg of RAM, I gig gig
Jaz drive, 100 meg Zip drive, etc. I haven't selected an HD yet, and
I'm not sure how fast the CD is. It'll have a 100baseTX NIC, though.
It'll connect to my 17 inch monitor via the same electronic KVM box the
current system is using.
That'll give me this, after I get done re-arranging stuff:
OS CPU RAM Purpose
- ----------- ------------ --- ------------------
OS/2 Warp 4 AMD K6-2-500 320 "main box"
Win98 AMD K6-2-300 320 Windows box
MacOS 7.6.2 68040 (LC-475) ??? Mac stuff
Netware 4.2 Pentium 166 256? file server
DR-DOS 7.03 486DX2-66 64 uucp/fidonet
"linux" 386DX-??? 16 firewall
Note that other than the firewall and the file server, all of these
will be using the *same* monitor. And all but the Mac will be using the
same keyboard and mouse. :-)
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:09:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
In mail you write:
> Hey Doug, better up that memory now. We're paying $106 for 256 Meg DIMMs.
*Where*? We just got quoted $131 for 256 meg, 133 DIMMs. And that's
*dealer* price, not retail. Then again, it's Kingston.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:39:16 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Am , las ich folgendes:
> This is the biggest reason why I think that the DGP material should be
> removed from the body of Traveller canon (sooner rather than later).
Au contraire, mon ami...
I feel that the standard of quality that marks DGP´s products should
forbid it´s exclusion from Canon. Old GDW CT materials were never
banned from canon, just because they were hard to get. And now they
are reprinted. This will happen with DGP´s stuff as well, I hope.
Exclusions from canon should only be considered for defective
material, or material where there is an overproportinal lack of
quality, such as in a large amount of T4 products (the maps in M:0,
the whole of FS, Anomalies, Annilik Run, etc, etc..)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:53:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: world series
In mail you write:
> On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>> Oh, BTW.. Kiri? Baseball Season is starting. :)
>
> hmph. some world series. none of the teams I know anything about are
> ever in it!
>
> and all this khrappe just because I expected to go to a Traveller in SF
> gig and talk about Traveller?
>
> @_@;;;
>
> note to other non-baseball fans: do not get within 20 feet of penguin boy
> during baseball season if there is a game on.
Ok, fine. My ex-girlfriend is a Cubs fan. You learn to just shake your
head and dust them off occasionally. :-)
> I don't like baseball. Too slllloooooooooooooooooooooow.
Then avoid cricket at all costs!
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:56:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: HTML gibberish
In mail you write:
> On 20 Feb 2001, at 19:39, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Gentles
>>
>> Are my posts appearing as mounds of HTML gibberish like Shaggy3D's?
>> (just to pick a random example) I'm using AOL and not taking any
>> special steps to prevent it.
>
> Nope, and your headers proclaim that you're posting in ASCII, so it's
> not just my email program (which is very good at hiding such crap
> from me).
Anybody who's ever worried about this, just mail a test message to
system@krypton.rain.com. It's unlikely I'll *ever* use anything but a
"plain text" reader on *that* account.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 01:11:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The spirit of the game
In mail you write:
> ObTrav: Your gallant band of Adventurers (in between Ethically Challenged
> Merchant jobs), are hired as security for the Sub-Sector finals.
> It's the two big rivals and the blood is running hot.
If those planets are anything like a couple of South American countries
that shall remain nameless, they may be hiring several *regiments* of
mercenaries.
Or your ship may get an "unusual" cargo. A surplus grav tank, being
shipped as "personal cargo" by one of the referrees for the match. He
parks it just off the field. nd takes refuge in it if they get *too*
ugly.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:42:51 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
<weg>
;-) I really like the name of that thing ;-)
Beest to be carried by "people" called Lister, if you can call them
that ;-)
</weg>
Volker
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:46:02 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Attn.: Penguin-Lovers
While browsing the web about my other hobby, Manga and anime, I found
this link...
http://www.fredart.com/fredart/artpage.php3?src=&ft=co&fn=11
Penguinlovers enjoy :-)
Colker
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:50:53 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote
> I did.
> http://www.loc.gov/copyright/ For US copyright law
> http://www.uspto.gov For Trademark law
> bloo
> Peter Newman wrote:
>
> > "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com> wrote
> >
> > > before you accept
> > > as fact anything anyone says, go look it up for yourself.
> >
> > Bloo could you suggest an appropriate source I might use
> > to look up the factualness of the above assertion? :)
Not the assertion about copyright vs trademark, I already
knew that. I was inquiring about your assertion that "before
you accept as fact anything anyone says, go look it up for yourself."
What source, or sources, do you have to prove that I should or
shouldn't accept what people say as fact without looking it up
myself? If you have no such sources than your advice is (on it's
own terms) useless however to check your sources i would first
need to believe the assertion that I ought not to accept things
as fact without checking them. If I already believe this assertion
why should I check it?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:52:50 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
On 23 Feb 2001, at 10:39, Volker wrote:
> Am , las ich folgendes:
>
> > This is the biggest reason why I think that the DGP material should be
> > removed from the body of Traveller canon (sooner rather than later).
> Au contraire, mon ami...
> I feel that the standard of quality that marks DGP´s products should
> forbid it´s exclusion from Canon. Old GDW CT materials were never
> banned from canon, just because they were hard to get. And now they
> are reprinted. This will happen with DGP´s stuff as well, I hope.
Well, I have some reservations regarding their quality too, but I think its
time to face reality. For whatever reason, this material is gone and it ain't
coming back
> Exclusions from canon should only be considered for defective
> material, or material where there is an overproportinal lack of
> quality, such as in a large amount of T4 products (the maps in M:0,
> the whole of FS, Anomalies, Annilik Run, etc, etc..)
The copyright of the GDW material was never in doubt or a hinderance for
authors. It is for DGP material
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 05:43:20 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:12:50 +0200
> From: Niko Mikkanen <niko.mikkanen@capslock.fi>
> Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
>
> Hi all. I'm a newbie here, but it seems a good time to open my mouth a
> little...
>
> DaveShayne wrote:
>
> > Penetration: Ball=2-3-nil DS=1-2-3 HE=nil HEAP=2-2-2
> > Counts as fully silenced
> >
> > The original version of this design had a bolt action in order to
> > gain the extra few meters range but it seems more usefull to me
> > to have the SA fire rate. The bipod is included mostly because I
> > don't see a weapon this unwieldy being particularly aimable
> > without one (the range and recoil absorption is a bonus.)
> >
> > David Shayne
>
> Umm, ok, here's the beef: How do you make the weapon hit anything on
> long range, if it's subsonic? And how do you make it completely silent,
> if it's supersonic: there's always going to be the crack of the sound
> barrier breaking.
According to the FFS rules this round is subsonic. How does it fire to
long range? I'm not sure I understand the question. Range is determined
(at least according to FFS) by muzzle energy (modified by barrel length
so that a longer barrel doesn't result in as great an increase in range
as a straight calculation would suggest.) The low velocity of this round
is offset by the rather high mass of the bullet allowing for a longer range
than a subsonic round of a smaller calibre.
>
> Also, I'm not sure how well DS and a silencer work together. Probably
> once, and then the discarding part of the DS rips the silencer's guts
> out.
Hadn't thought of that. DS is probably out. Although I expect the normal
combat load to be HEAP anyway (pen vs armor is beter at longer range
even if maximum range is less)
> A subsonic DS probably isn't even worth building in a weapon this small:
> Such a light projectile at such a low velocity will have a negligible
> range.
>
> As to the SA versus Bolt Action: The reason most modern sniper rifles
> (as opposed to, for example, marksman rifles) use BA because it's more
> accurate: The movement of the bolt combined with usual looseness of a SA
> design (there's always more room for movement of the shell casing within
> a SA lock) will cause inaccuracy in long-range fire. The difference in
> the game system is the few extra yards of range. In real life, it could
> be the difference between a hit and a miss.
Sure. But I figured the ability to lay 3 rounds near target somewhat
less accurately would compensate for a reduction of a single rounds
accurate range. I suppose the TNE combat model could be broken.
I can say with surety that the design rules tend to give *interesting*
results. I like to play to the extremes and that shows up the limitations
of the system more than usual.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:14:49 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
On 23 Feb 2001, at 0:09, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
>
> > Hey Doug, better up that memory now. We're paying $106 for 256 Meg DIMMs.
>
> *Where*? We just got quoted $131 for 256 meg, 133 DIMMs. And that's
> *dealer* price, not retail. Then again, it's Kingston.
Hmm. Retail's NZ$300, inc GST over here right now. That's about US$120-130.
It's nice to find something that we don't get ripped-off for. :)
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:24:46 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
On 23 Feb 2001, at 5:43, DaveShayne wrote:
> According to the FFS rules this round is subsonic. How does it fire to
> long range? I'm not sure I understand the question. Range is determined
> (at least according to FFS) by muzzle energy (modified by barrel length
> so that a longer barrel doesn't result in as great an increase in range
> as a straight calculation would suggest.) The low velocity of this round
> is offset by the rather high mass of the bullet allowing for a longer range than
> a subsonic round of a smaller calibre.
It's a fault in the system, and I've yet to see a small arm desgin system that
doesn't do this. There seems to be this weird idea that heavier bullets go
further than light ones. While it is true over the mid-range of small arms it
breaks down at the extremes, like sub-sonic rounds, where the drag from the air
has less impact than the fact that the tracjectory is rather like a rain-bow. I
suspect a fair bit of the problem comes from using projectile mass rather than
sectional density in the algorithms.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:24:46 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
On 23 Feb 2001, at 11:12, Niko Mikkanen wrote:
> As to the SA versus Bolt Action: The reason most modern sniper rifles
> (as opposed to, for example, marksman rifles) use BA because it's more
> accurate: The movement of the bolt combined with usual looseness of a SA
> design (there's always more room for movement of the shell casing within
> a SA lock) will cause inaccuracy in long-range fire. The difference in
> the game system is the few extra yards of range. In real life, it could
> be the difference between a hit and a miss.
While this is true, with a well made weapon (not an AK-47, etc) it doesn't make
a whole lot of difference. Bench-resters will notice, but for the rest of us
the difference is small enough that the less accurate bolt-actions of a given
make will be less accurate than the more accurate semi-auto of a good, accurate
design. IOW unless you're actually giving individual weapons adjustments to
accuracy you can generally ignore this, assuming that care has been taken in
designing the weapon to make it accurate.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:21:40 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: The spirit of the game
Ah..that's what I get for posting inside jokes.
This is an old strawman argument used to annoy Japanese martial artists who
claim that American Karate (Aikido, Judo, whatever) practitioners will
never really understand or practice "correctly", because they lack the
proper "spirit." They usually make such a claim after they or their
students lose to an American/Frenchman/Englishman/someother non-Japanese.
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> types:
>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
> "Ahh...that is truly the spirit of Baseball. It's just not
>"Baseball" with noodles served in the stands, and Coaches politely
>disagreeing with the Umpires. The technique may be good, but the "proper"
>spirit just isn't there....
> "Some folks hold the attitude that even in losing, their team is the
>"more correct" team."
>
>Mr. Urbin,
> I have been to a half dozen games in Japan and found the fans to be
>just as spirited as the ones in Fenway. You'd like it very much. They
>simply express their fervor differently.
> You should see the home made banners, drum and horns groups, and abuse
>heape on the umps! The game is more like the National League game, even
>with their use of the DH.
> At least their players don't spit on the umps.
Like I said, not "real" baseball. :-)
> As for a "correct team", the Sox have always been more correct than
>those dratted Yankees and all the Series they bought.
Well, of course. The Sox have Spirit (Even if it's just the Bambino's),
while the Yankees are just the best team money can buy.
I remember being at an '86 World Series party in Waltham (MA). This poor
bastard had the bottle of champaign between his thighs, his thumbs on the
cork...then the ball dropped.
One thing I've learned living in the PRM, the local sports teams are only
here to hurt you.
ObTrav: It's an interesting study in fanatic behavior. :-)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ Opinions Mine!
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 06:59:00 -0600
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Niko Mikkanen <niko.mikkanen@capslock.fi>
>
> Hi all. I'm a newbie here, but it seems a good time to open my mouth a
> little...
Excellent! Don't be shy; we don't bite (much).
> DaveShayne wrote:
>
> > Penetration: Ball=2-3-nil DS=1-2-3 HE=nil HEAP=2-2-2
> > Counts as fully silenced
>
> Umm, ok, here's the beef: How do you make the weapon hit anything on
> long range, if it's subsonic? And how do you make it completely silent,
> if it's supersonic: there's always going to be the crack of the sound
> barrier breaking.
>
> Also, I'm not sure how well DS and a silencer work together. Probably
> once, and then the discarding part of the DS rips the silencer's guts
> out.
<snips of other comment>
I gotta admit to being curious about these points also,
though I'm not
a weapons afficionado.
> (A sidenote: I have only recently began playing Traveller, so I'm not
> actually all that familiar with the game system. I'm approaching this
> problem from the other end, the Real Life...)
With all the Traveller versions floating around, game system
is really
irrelevant. Translating RealLife(tm) effects into any of
them is fairly
easy. A concensus on the effects themselves is the critical
part.
And with that, I point you to the TML's resident combat
specialists,
starting with the name *I'm* most familiar with, Mr. Doug
"Penguin Boy"
Berry (sir!).
(Can't wait to see the responses to your post, Mr.
Mikkanen!)
David Smart
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:51:36 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: What could go wrong?
Hal wrote:
> 5) This is where the List's diabolical nature can excel in
> giving out ideas. What else can go wrong that is annoying -
> potentially alarming, even demoralizing, yet not deadly enough
> to make a ship become rated as "unsafe".
You sign your emails "Hal" and you can't guess the obveous one?
Ships Computer: "Dave? I have to tell you something. The AE-35
unit will suffer 100% failure within 48 hours. I recommend
complete replacement of the unit."
Dave (Ship's Pilot): "What's wrong with it, Hal?"
Ship's Computer: "I have no information on that. I enjoy working
with humans and I have every confidence in the mission."
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:02:27 -0600
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com>
Subject: RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
****On 23 Feb 2001, at 11:12, Niko Mikkanen wrote:
> As to the SA versus Bolt Action: The reason most modern sniper rifles
> (as opposed to, for example, marksman rifles) use BA because it's more
> accurate: The movement of the bolt combined with usual looseness of a SA
> design (there's always more room for movement of the shell casing within
> a SA lock) will cause inaccuracy in long-range fire. The difference in
> the game system is the few extra yards of range. In real life, it could
> be the difference between a hit and a miss.
While this is true, with a well made weapon (not an AK-47, etc) it doesn't
make
a whole lot of difference. Bench-resters will notice, but for the rest of us
the difference is small enough that the less accurate bolt-actions of a
given
make will be less accurate than the more accurate semi-auto of a good,
accurate
design. IOW unless you're actually giving individual weapons adjustments to
accuracy you can generally ignore this, assuming that care has been taken in
designing the weapon to make it accurate.****
Therein lies the problem, Rupert. To get "Long Range" accuracy, you HAVE to
notice the differences at close ranges. Even the vaunted Walther WA2000
(Which was built from the magazine up for the express purpose of being a
sniper rifle) and HK PSG-1 (A completely re-engineered G3) couldn't stand up
to the M40 (Remington 700 Based) sniper rifle at ranges past 600 meters. The
only reason the SEALs still use the M21 was that they have this fixation
with firepower (Most real SEALs I have seen shoot are far worse marksmen
than a typical police officer, but they do have some cool toys) over
precision - At least they did in the Late 80'2/Early90's when I saw them
shoot regularly).
A rifle capable of Minute of Angle accuracy is shooting a 10.5" CEP at 1000
yards, and that is barely adequate. A Suppressed sniper rifle firing
conventional ammunition is more useful than it sounds (pun intended). Use
the high velocity stuff for longer distance engagements, and low velocity
for close range work. Two different sets of Zeros and Range Data, but
certainly doable. A TL9 Sniper Rifle might well be Smart enough to have an
self-ranging scope and ammunition awareness built-in, if money were no
object. Hell, it's possible NOW to do such a thing, and it has been done,
just not all at once on the same rifle.
Best,
Matt
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 02:12:46 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
On 23 Feb 2001, at 7:02, Matthew W. Helton wrote:
> Therein lies the problem, Rupert. To get "Long Range" accuracy, you HAVE to
> notice the differences at close ranges. Even the vaunted Walther WA2000 (Which
> was built from the magazine up for the express purpose of being a sniper rifle)
> and HK PSG-1 (A completely re-engineered G3) couldn't stand up to the M40
> (Remington 700 Based) sniper rifle at ranges past 600 meters. The only reason
> the SEALs still use the M21 was that they have this fixation with firepower
> (Most real SEALs I have seen shoot are far worse marksmen than a typical police
> officer, but they do have some cool toys) over precision - At least they did in
> the Late 80'2/Early90's when I saw them shoot regularly). A rifle capable of
> Minute of Angle accuracy is shooting a 10.5" CEP at 1000 yards, and that is
> barely adequate. A Suppressed sniper rifle firing conventional ammunition is
> more useful than it sounds (pun intended). Use the high velocity stuff for
> longer distance engagements, and low velocity for close range work. Two
> different sets of Zeros and Range Data, but certainly doable. A TL9 Sniper Rifle
> might well be Smart enough to have an self-ranging scope and ammunition
> awareness built-in, if money were no object. Hell, it's possible NOW to do such
> a thing, and it has been done, just not all at once on the same rifle.
All this is true. However accuracy below the 1 MOA is as much tuning and ammo
selection as the action (assuming high quality of manufacture), and at 1000m
the most important thing is accurate estimation of the range.
BTW I had an M1 Garand that shot 1 MOA with iron sights, from a rest, without
accurisation, or hunting through heaps of different loads for the best one, so
there are accurate semi-autos around. With a scope and careful selection of
loads I'd be surprised if that rifle wouldn't have got down to 0.75 MOA.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3733
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3734
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Traveller-digest Friday, February 23 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3734
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
RE: System defenses
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
OT: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)
[Website Review] Andrew's Traveller Page
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
RE: Ship habitability
Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:59:04 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
At 07:02 AM 02/23/2001 -0600, you wrote:
> A TL9 Sniper Rifle might well be Smart enough to have an
>self-ranging scope and ammunition awareness built-in, if money were no
>object. Hell, it's possible NOW to do such a thing, and it has been done,
>just not all at once on the same rifle.
We have a scope like that now, it's produced by Swarovski Optik and is
called the LRS, or Laser Ranging Scope. Pretty nifty, it determines the
range and adjusts the scope based on the cam installed.
Get'em now, they're down from $4495.00 at $1995.00!
Kurt Feltenberger
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
~Stephen Decatur
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:51:08 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
On 22 Feb 2001, at 8:29, Ian or Katts wrote:
>> >This makes me wonder, how could/did the 3I *avoid* getting entangled
>> >in issues such as these? If the 3I is just a unifying police and
>> >protection force, then there would be many cases of injustices,
>> >misfortunes of circumstance, etc. where many people suffer, potentially
>> >needlessly, if the 3I stepped in and helped.
>>
>> "The Imperium does not rule worlds, it rules the space between the
worlds".
>>
>> To suggest the Imperium steps in and helps is Dulinorism - a recovation
of what has worked so well for
>> 1100 years ...
>
>True. "The Imperium is the facilitator and the police and defense,
>nothing more."
>
>But didn't some other posts this week imply there was some [implicit]
>authority over the worlds despite the "rules the spaces" phrase?
>I.e., that's what they say when asked why they don't do X, but if it
>really came down to it, were extremely important, whatever, they
>*could* intervene. (But then those issues aren't what I was thinking
>about initially anyway. See below.)
>
>
From the Imperial Constitution chartered by Cleon I with the Warrant of
Restoration:
Article VIII -
Acknowledgments of Imperial Power: Notwithstanding any provisions to the
contrary contained
in this document or in subsequent Imperial actions, the Imperium, for the
purpose of ensuring its
continued safety and stability, reserves to itself the power to unilaterally
enact changes in any or
all aspects of the relationship between itself and any member world or
citizen.
In the U.S. we'd call something like this the supremacy clause. Imperial Law
always overrides local laws.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 07:08:51 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
on 2/23/01 12:09 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
> In mail you write:
>
>> Hey Doug, better up that memory now. We're paying $106 for 256 Meg DIMMs.
>
> *Where*? We just got quoted $131 for 256 meg, 133 DIMMs. And that's
> *dealer* price, not retail. Then again, it's Kingston.
Hewitt-Rand here in Tigard. I also see that Fry's is advertising 128 Meg
DIMMs for $49.95.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:05:05 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: System defenses
>What surprises me is that I have yet to see a single publication put out
>for Traveller based on the Ine Givar.
>
>GM: You are a local Cell within the Imperium, dedicated to the overthrow of
>the Imperial structure. What are your plans?
>
> It would be interesting to see just how effective the Ine Givar could be,
>especially if they started getting their hands on weapons of mass
>destruction - bioweapons as it were? Imagine, what would happen if the Ine
>Givar were to target, not the people themselves, but the plants of a single
>world? They create a carrier such as perhaps a honey bee. It pollenates
>plants left and right, and then - a year later, the plant disease starts
>striking.
>
>On second thought, perhaps it would be wise not to go into such details...
>
> Hal
I see the Ine Givar on the same footing as the Red Brigade or the
Weathermen. They have absolutely no chance of overthrowing the Imperium or
even undermining the government of a local world. That doesn't mean that
they are not dangerous, disruptive or a problem for security forces. It just
means that they will ultimately fail in their objective. Should they
actually succeed in deploying a weapon of mass destruction the Imperial
response will totally crush them. (Because then the Imperium will exercise
extreme measures to find and kill them that the local populous would not
normally support. Things like psi agents, draconian ID checks and secret
police methods, etc.) Should the Joes and the Imperium ever make real peace,
(as they do in the TNE setting,) then as happened when Eastern Germany fell,
they will give up all they know of the Ine Givar, and it will be quickly
shutdown.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:03:05 -0000
From: "Neil McGurk" <nellkyn@gascoignes.fsnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Hello
At last a chance to creep from the shadows.
> Remember that the English upper classes came from France -- Norman
> Conquest, 1066, and all that. (Well, actually, they came from Scandinavia
> by way of a long stopover in Normandy where they learned French, became
> Christians, and stopped doing the bloody eagle.) Anyway, the English
> upper classes spoke and wrote in French until about Elizabethan times.
> Some of them still do, I understand.
Just a hundred years earlier. A large number of guilds started to keep their records in
English at the start of the Fifteenth century. The reason was the 'offical' language of
the ruling class had become English. Just keeping up with the Jones. Latin was the
language of the truly educated. Also Chaucer also wrote in English for the upper classes
and he was writing in the late Fourteenth century.
English people of all classes speak some French. I even know a couple of words. The
problem is that the upper classes speak a different version of English than wot I does.
I'll go now.
Neil M
>
> --Glenn
>
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:39:38 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com>
Subject: OT: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> > Hey Doug, better up that memory now. We're paying $106 for 256 Meg DIMMs.
>
> *Where*? We just got quoted $131 for 256 meg, 133 DIMMs. And that's
> *dealer* price, not retail. Then again, it's Kingston.
$123 here for a 256 mes PC133 stick... CANADIAN. Haw!
(I think that's about $88 US dollars).
BTW, on a related note...
Can any of our UK readers explain why they don't buy everything
outside of the UK? Any consumer good, especially electronics,
seems to cost the same in pounds as it does in dollars here.
Which is wierd when you consider that the pound is worth nearly
$2.50 CDN.
If you wanted to buy a high-end piece of gear, like a camcorder,
it seems like it would be cheaper to get a cheap flight to Canada
and buy it here, cost of the flight included. What gives?
ObTrav: The PCs ship is chartered by a semi-wealthy family for a
shopping expedition the next system over... and when they get back,
they've got 12 dtons of cargo and the PCs have already filled the
hold with groat pelts to sell. (well, not that exciting maybe, but
it could LEAD to trouble...)
Ethan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:33:16 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: [Website Review] Andrew's Traveller Page
The Traveller Website Review
- ----------------------------
Andrew Moffatt-Valance foolishly drew attention to himself by
asking for more website reviews and so ...
Andrew's Traveller Page
http://www.downport.com/amv
This site used to be hosted at Netaccess (and an old version can
still be found there) but now its hosted at Downport. The front
page is simple and fast loading, and checking out the "What's
New" page shows this site to be still active. (At last!) While
some of the material here is generic, most supports either
Andrew's 'historical' pre-RoM Nth Interstellar War campaign
"Prometheus Rising" or his non-canon campaign "Greater Magellanic
Cloud Campaign".
The generic stuff:
First up is "Andrew's Used Gravcar Lot". This has 6 vehicle
designs made using Rob Prior's "Infini-V" software (T4 CSC design
sequence). Mainly TL8/9 'cars' but also a TL3 land yacht with
optional wet bar (a nice detail). The sizes (0.5 dtons for a
family car) seen a little small but are probably correct ... now
I'm going to have to measure my own car and figure out its
displacement.
Next is "Andrew's Arms Bazaar". This has 2 rifles made using
Andrew's own "Gunsmith" Excel spreadsheet (T4 FF&S2 design
sequence) ... a 12mm revolver rifle and a 4mm gauss rifle.
In "Library Data" there are 4 articles: an interesting cultural
piece on "The Return Of The Skirt", rules for ship construction
(not a design sequence but rules detailing construction methods,
workers, prices, and times ... your new starships will never be
delivered shrink-wrapped again), a univeral corporate profile
(think USP string for corporations ... unfinished), and the TML
Landgrab of Ficant (about 50% complete but looking very good so
far).
Finally there is "Traveller Software" with 4 programs. A High
Guard ship constructor for Windows (seems to work well). A
sector regenerator (reroll dodgy stats for Genie/Sunbeam sectors
... untried). An Excel spreadsheet for FF&S2 personal weapons.
And an Excel spreadsheet for Pocket Empires.
The campaign stuff:
"Greater Magellanic Cloud Campaign": This is a non-canon
campaign. On the web site there are notes on history, the Terran
Empire, corporations, warships, marines, and aliens. A section
for a timeline is planned. The warship section lacks specific
designs. No maps are provided as these campaign notes are
intended to be used in conjuction with "Galactic" (the Traveller
mapping software) which has the relevant maps already loaded.
There is a fair amount of material here and a separate review is
warrented. However, a cursory glance suggests if you are looking
for an alternative to the 3I universe this would be a good first
choice.
"Prometheus Rising": This is a 'historical' campaign set during
the Nth Interstellar Wars at the dawn of the Rule of Man.
Terrans V the First Imperium. On the web site there are notes on
origins, history, the Terran Confederation, the Vilani, Terran
free traders, and Ships. Sections are planned for Sharurshid,
the intelligence war, the Vegans, and personalities. Again, no
maps are provided as these campaign notes are intended to be used
in conjuction with "Galactic". Again, there is a fair amount of
material here and a separate review is warrented. But from what
I've seen so far this material is going to become canon IMTU.
In summary: There are some good resources here for T4 campaigns,
and a few for other versions as well. The material is a little
specialised ... but the Prometheus Rising setting is very handy
for any campaigns set in the Solomani Rim (even if not in the
same period).
Improvements: I actually prefer the different colour scheme of
the original version of this site (but that's just a personal
opinion). The Traveller link from Andrew's *personal* page links
to his old site not this new version. Some of the pages in the
campaigns have links to more pages ... without links on the main
campaign settings you are forced to drill down to them (and they
can be easily overlooked). I would recommend the campaign menus
contain both main links and these secondary links. Other than
that, the main way to improve this site is for the site's author
to keep up the good work and continue to add content.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:34:22 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
On Thursday, February 22, 2001, at 11:03 PM, Neil McGurk wrote:
> English people of all classes speak some French.
Every English schoolboy knows "Merde". :-) Subtitled films often don't translate "merci", "bonjour", etc. I think most English people know a couple of words (literally...) in French, German and maybe even Spanish, they just can't say them very well and can't build them into sentences. :-)
> I even know a couple of words. The
> problem is that the upper classes speak a different version of English than wot I does.
The Queen's English is eroding. She's straying into (Thames) "Estuary English", contemporary sub-cockney standard English. Innit.
Accents are used to mark out social groups, but the adoption of new language generated by oppressed/lower-classed groups by higher-classed groups is common as well.
ObTrav: Those nobles, eh? What are they talking about? Well, you'd better figure it out, and not offend them, because they're paying for this trip....
- - Rob.
- --
JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/
Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,
Edition en Anglais.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:47:33 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Glenn Goffin wrote:
> Remember that the English upper classes came from France -- Norman
> Conquest, 1066, and all that.
Bit of trivia: This explains why there are different words for
meats as opposed to the animals they come from. A peasant would
see a bovine and call it a cow, a French-speaking noble would see
bovine meat on his plate and call it a cow ... but the French for
cow is "beouff" (sp?). Over the years that became "beef". Same
story for pig and porc (pork), etc. The peasants didn't get to
eat cows or pigs ... but did eat chicken. Thus, unlike for cows
and pigs, the word for the chicken animal and the chicken meat
are the same.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:01:14 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
on 2/23/01 2:43 AM, DaveShayne at daveshayne@email.msn.com wrote:
>
> According to the FFS rules this round is subsonic. How does it fire to
> long range? I'm not sure I understand the question. Range is determined
> (at least according to FFS) by muzzle energy (modified by barrel length
> so that a longer barrel doesn't result in as great an increase in range
> as a straight calculation would suggest.) The low velocity of this round
> is offset by the rather high mass of the bullet allowing for a longer range
> than a subsonic round of a smaller calibre.
Low velocity means a high ballistic arc. In order to get any kind of long
range, you'll need significant elevation. The longer (realtime) flight path
means the round will be more susceptible to outside factors like cross wind.
>
>>
>> Also, I'm not sure how well DS and a silencer work together. Probably
>> once, and then the discarding part of the DS rips the silencer's guts
>> out.
DS is out, and not useful anyway. DS is primarily a technique for driving
sub caliber projectiles at very high velocity without increasing chamber
pressure.
>> As to the SA versus Bolt Action: The reason most modern sniper rifles
>> (as opposed to, for example, marksman rifles) use BA because it's more
>> accurate: The movement of the bolt combined with usual looseness of a SA
>> design (there's always more room for movement of the shell casing within
>> a SA lock) will cause inaccuracy in long-range fire. The difference in
>> the game system is the few extra yards of range. In real life, it could
>> be the difference between a hit and a miss.
Depends on the SA action, but in general this is true. Manually operated
actions also allow for tighter chambers and less chance of ammunition being
mangles by the feed cycle.
>
> Sure. But I figured the ability to lay 3 rounds near target somewhat
> less accurately would compensate for a reduction of a single rounds
> accurate range. I suppose the TNE combat model could be broken.
> I can say with surety that the design rules tend to give *interesting*
> results. I like to play to the extremes and that shows up the limitations
> of the system more than usual.
This is starting to sound more like a support weapon than a sniper weapon. A
way to compensate for low velocity, high arc might be the use of an advanced
computing gunsite that factors in range, target movement, humidity, wind,
etc.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:04:05 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
on 2/23/01 3:24 AM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:
>
> While this is true, with a well made weapon (not an AK-47, etc) it doesn't
> make
> a whole lot of difference. Bench-resters will notice, but for the rest of us
> the difference is small enough that the less accurate bolt-actions of a given
> make will be less accurate than the more accurate semi-auto of a good,
> accurate
> design. IOW unless you're actually giving individual weapons adjustments to
> accuracy you can generally ignore this, assuming that care has been taken in
> designing the weapon to make it accurate.
Absolutely true. My Match AR-15 will shoot 1/4" angle with handloads.
Better than most .223 bolt rifles.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:01:28 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 22 Feb 2001, at 17:02, Terry Carlino wrote:
>
>> This way a MSC (that's a chief cook) who is also Surface Warfare
qualified, an
>> Officer of the Deck and Fire Party Leader will get more money than some
CT
>> (That's Crypto Tech) who just works his primary job, but doesn't care
about
>> mastering general warfare skills (and so is not as good an asset for the
ship.)
>> Of course a GSC(SW)-That's a Gas Turbine Tech Chief, who is as qualified
as the
>> MSC will make substantially more. He went to school longer, his a more
>> technically demanding specialty, and has lots of opportunities on the
outside.
>
>The idea is good, but it's that last that hurts. I don't know about the
Navy,
>but my experience in our Army suggests that the infantry really suffer (and
>other teeth arms) becasue they have few skills transferable to the outside
>until they get enough rank to have human resource and management skills. As
>these are the people who are the whole reason everyone else exists, and the
>ones that do all the dying, they are naturally not very happy about being
less
>well paid.
>
>--
>"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
That's a different problem. Pay should be commensurate with the risks. Now
realistically a medic, who is also under fire should be paid more than an
infantryman. He takes the same risks and has more extensive training. An
regular infantryman is like a police officer or fire fighter in that risks
are part of the job and a premium should be paid for taking that risk.
However, it is unrealistic to expect that having a higher risk job should
cancel out all of the other factors. If the infantryman is unhappy with his
lot, over time he can change it through education, training and plain hard
work (working to advance.)
It is not the military's job (just as it is not my company's job) to train
people to increase their marketability when they leave.
I don't know how the Army classifies new recruits, but in the Navy almost
everyone is slated for a particular job when they sign on the dotted line.
Anyone who would be considered good employee material by a civilian company
will get the opportunity to attend advanced training before they ever come
in. In 20 something years I only ever knew one guy who came in to be a cook.
Most Mess Specialist enter that rate because they come in the Navy as an
undesignated striker. These are the people who, quite honestly, are poor job
prospects. They generally did marginally in high school (but generally
completed it, since the Navy typically won't even look at you if you don't
have a diploma,) they have no college or technical school training, their
scores on the ASVAP (or whatever IQ test the services are now using) are
low. They are people the Navy recruits because they need grunt work done.
They are a risk the navy is taking. The service expects most to do 4 years
and get out.
Some turn out quite well. They make excellent Boatwainmates, Mess
Specialists and Gunners Mates. Every great once in a while one will realize
that they wasted their natural talent by sliding through HS and work to
master a really difficult specialty and convince his or her's chain of
command to give them a shot at a technical school. Some find that they have
an affinity for the military and do well there. Many more end up getting
thrown out (at much higher rates than those who originally are recruited for
advanced training.)
ObTrav: (Yes I've got one.) Since we know (from canon) that the Imperial
Navy can afford to be choosy are there any people who perform the "grunt"
work? Do they use robots for the kind of repetitive cleaning and polishing
work that present day sailors do? Before anyone answers "Well of course,
that kind of thing is done by sailors to just keep the crew busy," remember
that while it might be better for the GM to limit training time during jump
(to prevent the PC's from advancing too rapidly in skills) for the IN it's a
good thing. Many foreign navies even today use contractors to do things like
cooking and cleaning and limit sailors to actual seamanship or combat tasks.
If watchstanders and maintenance people are differentiated then things are
even better, since productivity will be higher, accidents will be much
reduced, and moral will be higher.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:08:24 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
Peter Newman wrote:
> Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote
>
> > I did.
> > http://www.loc.gov/copyright/ For US copyright law
> > http://www.uspto.gov For Trademark law
> > bloo
>
> > Peter Newman wrote:
> >
> > > "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com> wrote
> > >
> > > > before you accept
> > > > as fact anything anyone says, go look it up for yourself.
> > >
> > > Bloo could you suggest an appropriate source I might use
> > > to look up the factualness of the above assertion? :)
>
> Not the assertion about copyright vs trademark, I already
> knew that. I was inquiring about your assertion that "before
> you accept as fact anything anyone says, go look it up for yourself."
> What source, or sources, do you have to prove that I should or
> shouldn't accept what people say as fact without looking it up
> myself?
Well, technically, I can't prove a 'should' as I used it there. It's
an opinion that you would be well served to look it up for yourself
rather than accept anything posted here as accurate regarding law.
> If you have no such sources than your advice is (on it's
> own terms) useless however to check your sources i would first
> need to believe the assertion that I ought not to accept things
> as fact without checking them. If I already believe this assertion
> why should I check it?
Let me simplify my point.
The original poster said that in the U.S. the phrase "Dungeons
& Dragons" is protected by US copyright law, but is protected
by trademark law (and not copyright law) in Europe.
That statement is incorrect.
Because it is incorrect, you should not accept it as true.
A wise persons should also be skeptical of my statement and
would be well advised to reseach the matter for themselves,
so that they may draw their own conclusion. This is why
when discussing legal matters, I always attempt to provide
links so that others may read for themselves and come to
their own conclusion of what is true and what is not, rather
than accept my statements as fact.
Does that help?
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:13:22
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
I'd love to see Deneb done as a GT sector book. I think that was one of the
sector listed on the wish list area at the SJG web site.
- ----Original Message Follows----
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:04:56 +1300
On 22 Feb 2001, at 20:59, trentfs@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> The sector data that DGP used is located in the Missouri Archives.
Several of
> these sectors are known to be flawed, but AFAIK Deneb wasn't one of them.
> Furthermore, this data matches* the maps from 'Atlas of the Imperium,' a
> canonical GDW-published product (to be included in FFE009, BTW). On the
> message boards at farfuture.net Marc has expressed a desire to clean up &
> regularize this (Atlas/archive) data for publication as part of T5.
Yes, but that only gets you the raw UWPs.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:14:56 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
> Therein lies the problem, Rupert. To get "Long Range" accuracy, you HAVE to
> notice the differences at close ranges. Even the vaunted Walther WA2000
> (Which was built from the magazine up for the express purpose of being a
> sniper rifle) and HK PSG-1 (A completely re-engineered G3) couldn't stand up
> to the M40 (Remington 700 Based) sniper rifle at ranges past 600 meters.
The main problem that killed the WA2000 was cost, not performance. With
tuning, the WA could shoot with just about any bolt gun, but why spend
thousands of dollars, when an M40 can give the same performance for 1/4 the
cost. The WA offered no real advantage over existing guns at much higher
cost, and hence died.
> only reason the SEALs still use the M21 was that they have this fixation
> with firepower (Most real SEALs I have seen shoot are far worse marksmen
> than a typical police officer, but they do have some cool toys) over
> precision - At least they did in the Late 80'2/Early90's when I saw them
> shoot regularly).
Army snipers still use the M21 as well. It's the tactical role. The Army
views the sniper rifle as primarily useful for point target engagement at
long rifle range-taking out cadre and such. The Marines favor a hunter
killer approach with well chosen targets attacked at very long range.
> A rifle capable of Minute of Angle accuracy is shooting a 10.5" CEP at 1000
> yards, and that is barely adequate. A Suppressed sniper rifle firing
> conventional ammunition is more useful than it sounds (pun intended). Use
> the high velocity stuff for longer distance engagements, and low velocity
> for close range work.
Really not necessary, and overly complicated. Even though suppressed high
velocity rounds have ballistic crack, the source of the firing is difficult,
if not impossible to locate. Also, suppressors completely eliminate weapon's
flash.
Army snipers in Vietnam, using silenced M21s with starlight scopes at night
were absolutely lethal (many had over 500 kills).
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3734
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3735
Date: | 2/23/01 10:34:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Friday, February 23 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3735
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: The spirit of the game
[Website Review] Jackson Downport
RE: Re : Indefinite life span
Re: Looking for a home
RE: What could go wrong?
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: OT: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)
New Anti-Armor concept...
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Waaay OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot...
RE: New Anti-Armor concept...
UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long
Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: world series
Re: New Anti-Armor concept...
RE: System defenses
Re: OT: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: world series
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:12:09 -0500
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: The spirit of the game
>This is an old strawman argument used to annoy Japanese martial artists who
claim that American Karate (Aikido, Judo, whatever) practitioners will
never really understand or practice "correctly", because they lack the
proper "spirit." They usually make such a claim after they or their
students lose to an American/Frenchman/Englishman/someother non-Japanese.<
Too weird.
We are discussing this very thing on a martial list I am on right now.
Sam
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:15:30 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: [Website Review] Jackson Downport
The Traveller Website Review
- ----------------------------
Two reviews on the same day? Surely not. But its true:
Jackson Downport (Joseph L. Lockett)
http://www.io.com/~jlockett/RPG/Traveller/
This is another dead site. Abandoned in 1997 this half finished
site is filled with broken links. So why review it? Well, there
are a few items of potential interest here. This site is for
playing Traveller using the GURPS system ... written before GT
was published. The theme of the site (if you couldn't tell from
the title) is a starport home page. There are three sections:
"Translation Services", "Embassy Row", and "Marketplatz".
The "Translation Services" section contains links to a number of
simple CT and MT rule conversions to GURPS. On the downside many
of these links are broken.
The "Embassy Row" section contains alien conversions. GURPS
racial packages for Hivers (broken link), Gvegh Vargr (broken
link), and T4's Alien Archive (half completed).
The "Marketplatz" section is equipment. It is divided into three
companies: "Luwas, Tsefe & Drummond, Naval Architects, LSE, LIC"
provides ships. "Mala" provides vehicles. "Dialog" provides
weapons (great name for an arms dealer!). Unfortuneately Mala
and Dialog have not been done yet. Fortuneately "LTD" has and it
contains 3 starships.
- - The Abelard class Survey Cruiser is a 400 dton TL12 ship with
an Excel spreadsheet of the SSDS design.
- - The Battle class Military Destroyer is a 1000 dton TL12 ship.
- - The Samarkand class Far Trader is a 200 dton TL12 ship complete
with revenue analysis.
In summary the only real thing of value here are the GT racial
packages for the T4 aliens.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:28:54 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Re : Indefinite life span
This article was on the AP newswire yesterday:
>
<snip>
> Olshansky said the developed nations of the
>world have already enjoyed the most dramatic
> improvement in life expectancy in human history.
>
> An American female born in 1900 had a life
>expectancy of 48.9 years. By 1995, life
> expectancy for a newborn girl was 79.
>
> And there continues to be small gains. Death
>rates from 1985 to 1995 declined by 1.5
> percent in France, 1.2 percent in Japan and 0.4
>percent in the U.S., said Olshansky.
>
> Projecting these trends forward, he said, would
>give a combined male and female life
> expectancy of 85 years in France by 2033 and in
>Japan in 2035. Americans would not
> achieve a life expectancy of 85 until 2182,
>Olshansky said.
>
> The Social Security Administration (news - web
>sites) has forecast that U.S. life expectancy
> at birth will rise to 79.3 years for males and
>83.9 years for females by 2070. But to achieve
> this, said Olshansky, would require a faster
>decline in death rates for all ages.
>
I have to wonder if life expectancy in the U.S. was broken down by
socio-economic groups whether the life expectancy for certain groups in the
U.S. wouldn't be reflective of rates in other countries. More plainly,
separate out the lower income socio-economic groups who have little access
to health care. Would the average life expectancy rise dramatically?
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:45:38 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Looking for a home
Hello Leonard,
>F should be white, with O and A being light blue.
>
>Why? Because since green is *not* a possible color for a star, but it's
>been used in *so* much bad SF, I get bugged when I see something that
>even *implies* that stars are green.
I don't have a problem with using White or light blue or purple for that
matter <grin>. What I'd like to be able to do is create a map that is
usable and clearly delineated. White in the old Traveller set up meant a
planet in the star system without water if I recall correctly. But, it
does make sense to use white for F and light blue for A's and O's.
Now, for the final question on stars: Giants should likely be considered
to use a Larger Circle?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:47:00 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: RE: What could go wrong?
Hello PLST,
>You sign your emails "Hal" and you can't guess the obveous one?
>
>Ships Computer: "Dave? I have to tell you something. The AE-35
> unit will suffer 100% failure within 48 hours. I recommend
> complete replacement of the unit."
>
>Dave (Ship's Pilot): "What's wrong with it, Hal?"
>
>Ship's Computer: "I have no information on that. I enjoy working
> with humans and I have every confidence in the mission."
Wise guy eh? <grin>
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:19:46 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Trevor, Peter wrote:
> Glenn Goffin wrote:
>
>> Remember that the English upper classes came from France -- Norman
>> Conquest, 1066, and all that.
>
>
> Bit of trivia: This explains why there are different words for
> meats as opposed to the animals they come from. A peasant would
> see a bovine and call it a cow, a French-speaking noble would see
> bovine meat on his plate and call it a cow ... but the French for
> cow is "beouff" (sp?). Over the years that became "beef". Same
> story for pig and porc (pork), etc. The peasants didn't get to
> eat cows or pigs ... but did eat chicken. Thus, unlike for cows
> and pigs, the word for the chicken animal and the chicken meat
> are the same.
Except for some places in the old French empire (somewhere in Southeast Asia), where all meat ended up being called 'boeff'. Chicken is named, in this patois, 'boueff what fly'. ;-)
The Food Channel has some weird stuff on sometimes...
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:23:46 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)
Ethan Henry wrote:
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>
>>> Hey Doug, better up that memory now. We're paying $106 for 256 Meg DIMMs.
>>
>> *Where*? We just got quoted $131 for 256 meg, 133 DIMMs. And that's
>> *dealer* price, not retail. Then again, it's Kingston.
>
>
> $123 here for a 256 mes PC133 stick... CANADIAN. Haw!
> (I think that's about $88 US dollars).
>
> BTW, on a related note...
>
> Can any of our UK readers explain why they don't buy everything
> outside of the UK? Any consumer good, especially electronics,
> seems to cost the same in pounds as it does in dollars here.
>
> Which is wierd when you consider that the pound is worth nearly
> $2.50 CDN.
>
> If you wanted to buy a high-end piece of gear, like a camcorder,
> it seems like it would be cheaper to get a cheap flight to Canada
> and buy it here, cost of the flight included. What gives?
They do. Hence wonderful little innovations like:
http://www.newscientist.com/dailynews/news.jsp?id=ns9999452
Big Brother is Here...and his name is Profit. Vilani Megacorps would LOVE this little piece of technology.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:25:52 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: New Anti-Armor concept...
OK, this isn't exactly state-of-the-art penguin technology, but I thought
the TML assemblage might find the following article of interest:
http://www.ssgfx.com/nfa/ROSCO/
(Star Wars, it *ain't*!)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:35:09 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Niko Mikkanen wrote:
> Hi all. I'm a newbie here, but it seems a good time to open my mouth a
> little...
Snip excellent analysis of the design.
> (A sidenote: I have only recently began playing Traveller, so I'm not
> actually all that familiar with the game system. I'm approaching this
> problem from the other end, the Real Life...)
>
> Niko "GNiko" Mikkanen
Certainly, please do.
David, one of the problems with FFS1 is the gawd-awful performance of the firearms design system at the weird design edge, such as 20mm sniper rifles.
My suggestion is to go get 3G3:
http://www.hyperbooks.com/catalog/10012.html
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:29:53 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Waaay OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot...
This isn't even remotely Traveller-related, so my apologies in advance.
I'm posting this here because it's the only way I can be sure of not
missing anyone.
I need a rough head-count of the folks that are planning or have talked
about attending the ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot and anticipate staying
with Lori and I (Jesse, Doug, Glenn, others?) I don't think there will be
a problem but it looks like we might have a fairly full house this time!
Please let me know ASAP.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:45:21 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: New Anti-Armor concept...
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Too funny!
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Mark F. Cook
> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 9:26 AM
> To: Traveller Mail List
> Subject: New Anti-Armor concept...
>
>
> OK, this isn't exactly state-of-the-art penguin technology, but I thought
> the TML assemblage might find the following article of interest:
>
> http://www.ssgfx.com/nfa/ROSCO/
>
> (Star Wars, it *ain't*!)
>
> - Mark C.
>
> mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
> 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
> Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:46:57 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long
Ethan Henry wrote:
> Can any of our UK readers explain why they don't buy everything
> outside of the UK? Any consumer good, especially electronics,
> seems to cost the same in pounds as it does in dollars here.
>
> Which is wierd when you consider that the pound is worth nearly
> $2.50 CDN.
>
> If you wanted to buy a high-end piece of gear, like a camcorder,
> it seems like it would be cheaper to get a cheap flight to Canada
> and buy it here, cost of the flight included. What gives?
You mean apart from different power supply voltages and other
inconsistencies?
<rant>
This is a twisted trade war going on right now between
manufacturers and UK consumers.
In the car market people found if they went across the channel to
the European mainland prices were upto a third cheaper, but many
car dealers refused to sell when they found out the car was going
to go back to the UK. After years of complaint the authorities
stepped in and investigated: the dealers were bowing to illegal
pressure from the car manufacturerers. UK car prices have
recently been forced down by about 10% but six months ago one car
maker CEO stated that if prices dropped to be inline with the
rest of Europe it would affect 2nd hand prices too, and they
thought what most people were concerned with was total cost of
ownership of the lifetime of the car rather that new car list
prices ... so they intended to keep prices high to 'protect
consumers investment'.
A supermarket chain started to import jeans from the US. (I
think they were Wrangler.) They are just ordinary jeans in the
US market but are sold in the UK as "designer label". The jeans
manufacturer took the supermarket to court on the grounds that
selling their jeans cheaply was injurious the the brand's image.
For cameras, walkmans, and other items, buying them in the US or
elsewhere voids warrenties and service agreements if imported
into the UK. So if your Canadian bought Sony camcorder (for
example) breaks down a month after you've bought it Sony UK will
refuse to deal with the case ... you have to send it to a friend
in North America who can then get Sony US or Canada to fix the
problem. (Sony UK is a different company to Sony US even they
they are both owned by the same parent company. The same goes
for the other big brand names too)
As for Sony Playstation 2 ... the UK release was just before
Christmas. There weren't even enough machines provided to fill
all the pre-orders (so none went on the shelves). The US price
equivalent was GBP200.00, Sony's price was GBP300.00 and quite
openly admitted that's what they thought the market would bear
(actually they have traded 2nd hand over the net for up to
GBP1000.00!). Meanwhile, the original Playstation was given a
new case and new name ("PS One") and relaunched just before
Christmas too: many clueless consumers got suckered on that one!
A motorcycle dealer started to buy Honda motorbikes built in the
UK for the Japanese market ... for sale in the UK. (Bikes built
in the UK, shipped to Japan, shipped back ... were cheaper than
those built in the UK for the UK) Honda took them to court on
the grounds that Honda UK has exclusive rights to sell *new*
Honda motorcycles in the UK. Honda also tried to claim that
bikes built for the Japanese market were not made to the same
standards as those for the UK market and may be considered
dangerous under UK law. So now 'imported' bikes need a
government inspection before they're allowed on the road, and of
course there is a growing backlog of inspections.
There is an annoying UK law that says no UK company can sell
movies (VHS or DVD) that have not yet been classified by the
censor. The Federation Against Copyright Theft (a trade body)
keeps an eye out for commercial importers of new DVDs and takes
them to court. Fortuneately, this does not apply to non-UK
exporters into the UK (like Amazon.com) so as more and more
people get internet access (we're still a little behind the US on
this) there will be more international trading (although many
'plebs' are still caught out by the region coding obsenity).
Recognising the threat of the internet to their bloated profit
margins the cosmetics industry has a propaganda campaign going
warning people to beware of all the 'massive counterfeiting
scams' on the internet (or of clearance stock being well past its
sell by date). So some people are afraid to buy expensive
perfumes on the net despite discounts of upto 50%.
</rant>
In summary: manufacturers continue to make buying internationally
inconveinent in a number of ways while over-charging in the UK
domestic market. Clued-up consumers are getting around this but
it takes effort and there are risks.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:53:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
http://www.msn.com/
news article:
Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
New research indicates that an asteroid or comet impact wiped out the
pre-dinosaurs, leading to the dinosaur era. It is already well
established that an asteroid impact wiped out the dinosaurs, leading to
the current era.
The scientists note that asteroid impacts that wipe out all life seem to
occur every 100 million years or so, and that is how long a given era's
life has to evolve a species with the intelligence to understand the
problem and avoid it.
Maybe the Hindu understanding of a cycle that starts with Vishnu, ends
with Kali, and starts again with Vishnu is much closer to truth than first
appears.
Ob Traveller: Establishing an interstellar civilization fairly well
guarantees that the species will survive naturally occurring asteroid
impacts. However, the establishment of an interstellar civilization
implies the ability to move large objects at very high velocities ...
leading to inevitable destruction by near-c rocks!
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:02:16 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: world series
> > note to other non-baseball fans: do not get within 20 feet of penguin boy
> > during baseball season if there is a game on.
>
> Ok, fine. My ex-girlfriend is a Cubs fan. You learn to just shake your
> head and dust them off occasionally. :-)
>
> > I don't like baseball. Too slllloooooooooooooooooooooow.
That's why Baseball is America's favorite *pass time*, not
favorite sport. <g>
There's nothing better than being able to go out to a game on a
warm sunny afternoon and relax in the stands eating peanuts and
drinking beer not having to pay really close attention unless you
want to. You can chat with your friends, keep score, bounce the
baby on your knee and not miss a play. You have time discuss and
debate the strategy of the "hit and run" and "defensive
positioning" with your friends before during and after every
pitch. You are able to go to the concession stand, stand in line,
buy a dog and a drink, walk back to your seat and have only
missed two pitches.
At home you can go to the restroom *during* innings and not miss
anything important...and if you do they'll replay it for you.
Shoot, you can rock back in your lazeboy and take a 20 minute nap
and only miss half an inning. And with all that you get to watch
a game played with a stick and ball by men ranging in size from
5'2" to 6'10" and in shapes ranging from slim to just plain fat,
and everyone one of us can daydream that if we really, really
wanted to we could do just as well as they do.
You can watch Major League games, minor league games, college or
high school games, games of little leaguers, and even pick up
games in the park, in empty lots and on the streets. You can even
find games to *play in* if you're so inclined...and between
innings you get to sit on a bench, drink beer and eat hotdogs.
Spitting and grabbing your crotch aren't frowned upon and fights
are community affairs where everyone participates and nobody
really gets hurt. What more could an American man ask for in a
pass time? <g>
I'm a southern boy, but I've been a Yankee fan since I listened
to Don Larson's perfect game on the radio in the Principal's
office in 1956. I was a first grader sent down to the school
office for some transgression that even I can't remember, the
school secretary was out of the office, but Mr. Dixon, the
Principal, was in his office listening to the game. I stuck my
head in, said "what are you listening to?" and he said "a piece
of history" and waved me inside. Soon we were both cheering on
every pitch and after the last out he hoisted me up on his
shoulders and we paraded around the offices and halls of the
school. By the time we'd stopped celebrating Mr. Dixon wasn't in
the mood to be forbidding or stern, and he still didn't know
exactly why I was in his office in the first place, so he just
told me "never do *that* again", "I told him I wouldn't", and was
a Yankee fan for life. Every time the Yankees played an
afternoon World Series game for the next 5 years, Mr. Dixon would
send for me and we listened to the games in his office. Sure I
missed a few classes, but I learned more from his example than I
missed in the classroom.
Ob Trav: Baseball lives IMTU...that's all I can say. <g>
Eris
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:57:54 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: New Anti-Armor concept...
Yes, I now find that it's possible to inhale McDonald's milkshake after all....
- - Rob.
Jesse Degraff wrote:
>
> ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>
> Too funny!
- --
Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/
"Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei,
Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."
- Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:57:44 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: System defenses
Terry Carlino wrote:
> I see the Ine Givar on the same footing as the Red Brigade or
> the Weathermen. They have absolutely no chance of overthrowing
> the Imperium or even undermining the government of a local world.
They might not be able to overthrow the 3I but in some places
they are quite significant. Check out the 5FW board game: they
field a significant military force on Efate. Using the rules on
army size by population you can get an estimate the size of the
non-combatant supporting population. I did this analysis once on
the TML but (a) have lost it and (b) don't have 5FW with me at
work to recalculate it. They may be inferior in number to
Efate's main forces, but they are way larger than a mere
terrorist group.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:48:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: OT: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)
In mail you write:
> BTW, on a related note...
>
> Can any of our UK readers explain why they don't buy everything
> outside of the UK? Any consumer good, especially electronics,
> seems to cost the same in pounds as it does in dollars here.
>
> Which is wierd when you consider that the pound is worth nearly
> $2.50 CDN.
>
> If you wanted to buy a high-end piece of gear, like a camcorder,
> it seems like it would be cheaper to get a cheap flight to Canada
> and buy it here, cost of the flight included. What gives?
Well, Canada uses 120 V power, the UK uses 240. Canada uses NTSC video,
the UK uses PAL. Shall I continue?
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:31:50 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com> writes:
>Every English schoolboy knows "Merde". :-) Subtitled films often don't translate "merci", "bonjour", etc.
>I think most English people know a couple of words (literally...) in French, German and maybe even
>Spanish, they just can't say them very well and can't build them into sentences. :-)
un bier, s'il vous plait...
ein Bier, bitte...
un cerveza, por favor...
(from memory, so I may have the spelling or genders wrong ;-) )
On a different level, I can remember reading some of Dorothy L Sayer's
_Lord Peter Wimsey_ books (written ~60 years ago), and in them the
author would include dialogue or even entire paragraphs in French -
clearly working on the assumption that her (educated, English) readers
would understand them without needing a translation.
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:31:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: world series
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> There's nothing better than being able to go out to a game on a
> warm sunny afternoon and relax in the stands eating peanuts and
> drinking beer not having to pay really close attention unless you
> want to. You can chat with your friends, keep score, bounce the
> baby on your knee and not miss a play. You have time discuss and
> debate the strategy of the "hit and run" and "defensive
> positioning" with your friends before during and after every
> pitch. You are able to go to the concession stand, stand in line,
> buy a dog and a drink, walk back to your seat and have only
> missed two pitches.
Don't have a baby (and don't plan to), don't like warm beer, don't care
about the score, and would like to chat with my friends about something
that is actually interesting (unlike baseball strategy) in a comfortable
place, with cushions, not in windy bleachers where my hair gets messed up
and I have to stand in a line about as long as a comet tail if I should
need to use the facilities. Don't like hot dogs much, and do not consider
that stuff that pretends to be beer at ball parks "a drink".
> At home you can go to the restroom *during* innings and not miss
> anything important...and if you do they'll replay it for you.
At home I can do something else!
> Shoot, you can rock back in your lazeboy and take a 20 minute nap
> and only miss half an inning.
While the other inhabitants of the house, who might like to watch
something that is actually interesting, groan "when is this @#$@#^$#
exercise in futility going to be over?"
> And with all that you get to watch a game played with a stick and ball
> by men ranging in size from 5'2" to 6'10" and in shapes ranging from
> slim to just plain fat, and everyone one of us can daydream that if we
> really, really wanted to we could do just as well as they do.
I'd rather watch J-League (soccer), where you have to have a good body,
and being cute is a plus, and the game actually is interesting. Well,
actually I'll watch most soccer games. But the J-League players are
cuter. If I want to watch fat guys stand around in a field looking stupid
and chewing tobacco, I will visit my family in Appalachia and look out the
window.
Kiri ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3735
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3736
Date: | 2/23/01 11:50:35 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Friday, February 23 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3736
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: world series
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: The spirit of the game
Rules question concerning GT
Re: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long
RE: System defenses
All your base are belong to us!
Re: Introduction to Traveller
Re: New Anti-Armor concept...
RE: What could go wrong?
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: Rules question concerning GT
RE: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: Attn.: Penguin-Lovers
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: The spirit of the game
Re: world series
Re: New Anti-Armor concept...
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: New Anti-Armor concept...
Re: The spirit of the game
Re: world series
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:34:21 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: world series
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
"That's why Baseball is America's favorite *pass time*, not
favorite sport. <g>"
< a snip of some of the many fine reasons baseball is great >
"I'm a southern boy, but I've been a Yankee fan since I listened
to Don Larson's perfect game on the radio in the Principal's office in
1956."
"Ob Trav: Baseball lives IMTU...that's all I can say. <g>"
Mr. Reddoch,
Thank you so much, sir, for your wonderful musings about our game.
Baseball is IMTU too. Your principal, although a Yankee fan <g>, was a man
of fine distinction and social graces. To have heard the Perfect Game,
ahhh, well one can always wish.
I lived for a few years outside of Detroit in the late 60's. In '68,
during the Tigers-Cardinals Series, my grammer school asked for the loan of
TVs from parents so the games could be watched in each classroom. I
remember being so proud, helping my father lug our black and white
"portable" into class.
The look of shock and incomprehension on "younger" folks' faces when I
tell them we watched baseball in school is wonderful. It's even better when
I remind them that, even though we watched baseball, I still recieved a
better education then they did.
As for the tatooed, pinchusioned, frenetic youth of today who complain
that baseball is "too slow", may I suggest you set up a Ritalin drip on an
IV and settle down for a time? It should be safe. After all, Ritalin is
how they drugged you through school. You might just enjoy yourself.
Larsen the Curmudgeon
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:32:28 -0800
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent dinosaur
100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they have left any
traces of their presence that we would find now?
> Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
>
> The scientists note that asteroid impacts that wipe out all life seem to
> occur every 100 million years or so, and that is how long a given era's
> life has to evolve a species with the intelligence to understand the
> problem and avoid it.
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:22:27 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: The spirit of the game
Am Friday, February 23, 2001, las ich folgendes:
>>This is an old strawman argument used to annoy Japanese martial artists who
> claim that American Karate (Aikido, Judo, whatever) practitioners will
> never really understand or practice "correctly", because they lack the
> proper "spirit." They usually make such a claim after they or their
> students lose to an American/Frenchman/Englishman/someother non-Japanese.<
Hmm, somehow reminds me of this Futurame episode, where Leela´s old
Sensei tells her that she, as a woman, cannot have the warriors
spirit, and is therefore doomed to loose, even without fighting.
("Want a rematch? I win again!")
> Too weird.
> We are discussing this very thing on a martial list I am on right now.
I am studying japanese, apart from law, and i have come across this particular
attitude in a certain genre of japanese literature, the Nihonjinron.
Some authors claim that outsiders cannot possibly understand things
japanese, because you need the japanese mindset from childhood onward
to truly capture the entirety of what these things mean.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:31:11 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Rules question concerning GT
In a recent game we had a certain problem concerning combat.
The problem was that wearing Battledress, and getting PGMP-13 fire,
there was only a very narrow window of survival for the PC´s.
Either the damage was too low, and there wouldn´t even be a sign that
he had just taken a hit, or the damage was too high, and he was toast.
Between these two extremes (uninjured/gone for good) was only a tight
margin of about 20 damage points.
Is this intentional? In MT the dmg from any firearm was reduced by
distance and there was a much wider range of survival than in GT. I
have not yet found a rule to solve this problem in GT, but must admit
that I have only just begun playing with Gurps rules...
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:39:31 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long
Am Friday, February 23, 2001, las ich folgendes:
> In summary: manufacturers continue to make buying internationally
> inconveinent in a number of ways while over-charging in the UK
> domestic market. Clued-up consumers are getting around this but
> it takes effort and there are risks.
Well said. The same goes for the rest of Europe as well, although some
of the time, prices are a bit more moderate. But that´s probably what
you get for living on an island...
With neighboring countries, people tend to shop across the border more
often, but in general the same tactics are used by manufactures in the
rest of Europe, as well.
Volker
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:39:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: System defenses
>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
>I see the Ine Givar on the same footing as the Red Brigade or the
>Weathermen. They have absolutely no chance of overthrowing the Imperium
or
>even undermining the government of a local world. That doesn't mean that
>they are not dangerous, disruptive or a problem for security forces. It
>just means that they will ultimately fail in their objective.
excerpt from a confidential presentation by Chief Inspector von Pong,
Regina Subsector Special Police, to new agents, about 50-1111:
"RSSP's charter, as you know, is to support local law enforcement agencies
with intelligence and other services about interstellar organized crime.
Let me now present for you the threat picture with respect to interstellar
organized crime in the Duchy of Regina:
"Number One on the threat list is the Ine Givar. During the recent war, I
was part of His Grace's liaison team with Imperial Naval Intelligence.
Far and away the greatest cause for concern and even fear among us was the
Ine Givar -- we feared them much more than the Zhodani navy. They pervade
the Spinward Marches.
"Soon after the war started, we concluded from our analysis that every
major world in the Marches had a large Ine Givar military force. During
the war, they would engage local and Imperial units, and were armed to the
top of local standards. Every time we thought we had destroyed them on a
world, they would disappear for a few weeks and then rise up again with
the same strength, fully equipped, and with no diminution in command
control or logistics functions, or in combat effectiveness.
"We believed that the Zhodani were resupplying destroyed Ine Givar units
with troops and materiel. When we defeated the second wave of Ine Givar,
we found that we had been correct as to materiel, but not as to troops.
There were only a very few Zhodani advisors serving with the Ine Givar,
perhaps one-tenth of one percent of total personnel in an Ine Givar unit.
"The Ine Givar were extremely effectively recruiting and training from the
populations of Imperial worlds, in the middle of a major war.
"And the worlds I'm talking about are Efate, Jewell, Rhylanor, Regina.
"Now that the war is over, the Zhodani are, so far as we know, not
supplying the Ine Givar with money or equipment. The Ine Givar, however,
are able to supply themselves with seemingly limitless manpower. They are
using that resource to obtain money and weapons, and rebuild themselves to
their pre-war levels. Here is an overview of known Ine Givar operations
in that regard ...."
I based this analysis on the Fifth Frontier War wargame. The Outworld
Coalition player gets ten Ine Givar units. Three start on Efate, one on
Ruie, and the others whereever desired. Each has a strength equal to 10%
of the defense force of the world. (Every troop unit in 5FW takes
casulaties in increments of 10% of the original size.) When an Ine Givar
unit takes casualties, it may become "covert" in the next turn, and it
builds its strength up 10% per turn until 100% or until the player makes
it "overt" again. It may not be engaged when it is covert. The only way
to destroy an Ine Givar unit is to inflict casualties that bring it to
zero.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:49:05 -0600
From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
Subject: All your base are belong to us!
>X-Sender: danawolfe@uncia.com (Unverified)
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)
>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:07:23 -0600
>To: lesbates@minn.net
>From: danawolfe@polaris.uncia.com
>Subject: All your base are belong to us!
>
> http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~pyang/base/allyourbase.swf
>
>
Something my landlord forwarded to me.
An adventure in bad translation.
Les
=======================================================
Objects on screen may be more hostile than they appear.
=======================================================
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:41:33 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Introduction to Traveller
William Barnett-Lewis wrote:
> Oh my little stars and comets... (Double points to those who remember where
> that came from... :)
>
> Ken,
>
> Thank you.
>
> William
You bet.
Kenneth.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:43:22 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: New Anti-Armor concept...
Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com> writes:
>Yes, I now find that it's possible to inhale McDonald's milkshake after
>all....
Rob, I'd have a doctor check that. :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:53:40 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: What could go wrong?
From: hal@buffnet.net
"Wise guy eh? <grin>"
Hal,
How could I have forgotten this? You ask for annoying ship's sytems
problems and I space off the silliest one I ever came across and played
against.
As a PC, my fellow traders and I had been looking to "flesh" out our
crew without hiring NPCs (we'd had a couple of bad ones lately). After
nosing around a bit, we happened upon three used robots; each had steward
skills, one had a engineering slant, the other two cargo.
Of course there was a slight problem with them, that's why they were so
cheap. But our mech, comp, and electronics guys looked them over and
decided they were worth the credits.
Everything went well unitl the first meal was served in jump. We found
out rather quickly that we had the Three Stooge-droids on board. Corraling
them proved difficult, they did all the same slapstick the real Stooges did
but without the props. A humano-form 'bot trying to hit you on the head
with a hammer or poke you in the eyes isn't much fun.
It was an interesting little firefight; some PCs wanting to turn them
into scrap while others wanted to subdue them without too much damage for
resale. All three got shot to pieces eventually, especially after one of
the "resale" PCs got boinked with a pipe.
Our engineer swept up the mess, locked himself in engineering, and put
together a robot drive lackey out of the scrapped parts. It was a weird and
ugly thing that made strange noise and quickly came to be known as "Shemp".
We hired two NPCs at the next port and dodged a couple lawsuits from
disgruntled passengers for a while.
Larsen E. "Guards seize them!" Whipsnade
P.S. I guess the GM had either watched Short Circuit or was ticked off by
our refusal to hire NPCs. They were his favorite, and most overused, plot
technique.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:59:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Dave Strebe writes:
> So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent dinosaur
> 100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they have left any
> traces of their presence that we would find now?
I assume you mean 100 million years, and maybe but likely not
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:03:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Rules question concerning GT
Volker writes:
> In a recent game we had a certain problem concerning combat.
> The problem was that wearing Battledress, and getting PGMP-13 fire,
> there was only a very narrow window of survival for the PC´s.
> Either the damage was too low, and there wouldn´t even be a sign that
> he had just taken a hit, or the damage was too high, and he was toast.
> Between these two extremes (uninjured/gone for good) was only a tight
> margin of about 20 damage points.
> Is this intentional? In MT the dmg from any firearm was reduced by
> distance and there was a much wider range of survival than in GT. I
> have not yet found a rule to solve this problem in GT, but must admit
> that I have only just begun playing with Gurps rules...
It's probably realistic, but is frequently problematic for gameplay. Any
weapon that can punch through several cm steel is barely going to notice
a human body.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:10:49 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
There's a sig file I'd found over a year ago that I unfortunately lost
that's relevant. Something like:
Some of the more conservative dinosaurs were concerned with the new iridium
fusion reactor, but the main consensus was "Aw, what could happen?"
EXTREMELY para-phrased I'm afraid. The original was written much better. I
distinctly remember the iridium fusion part though :)
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Anthony Jackson
> Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 11:00 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Cc: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
>
>
> Dave Strebe writes:
> > So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent
> dinosaur
> > 100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they
> have left any
> > traces of their presence that we would find now?
>
> I assume you mean 100 million years, and maybe but likely not
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:20:20
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Attn.: Penguin-Lovers
At 10:46 AM 2/23/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>While browsing the web about my other hobby, Manga and anime, I found
>this link...
>
>http://www.fredart.com/fredart/artpage.php3?src=&ft=co&fn=11
Hubba Hubba!!
>Penguinlovers enjoy :-)
We prefer to be called admirers.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:50:49
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
At 11:12 AM 2/23/2001 +0200, you wrote:
>Hi all. I'm a newbie here, but it seems a good time to open my mouth a
>little...
<snip excellent points>
>(A sidenote: I have only recently began playing Traveller, so I'm not
>actually all that familiar with the game system. I'm approaching this
>problem from the other end, the Real Life...)
Another sniper in our midst perhaps? Might we soon be shooting off to
split the check three ways while the winner orders the lobster?
Your essay assignment: Laser weaponry in Traveller. What do you see as
the advantages/disadvantages to personal lasers, and in what roles would
they be found?
- --
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!" - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:32:31
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: The spirit of the game
At 07:21 AM 2/23/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>> As for a "correct team", the Sox have always been more correct than
>>those dratted Yankees and all the Series they bought.
>
>Well, of course. The Sox have Spirit (Even if it's just the Bambino's),
>while the Yankees are just the best team money can buy.
Look, at least y'all aren't Giants fans. Between natural diasters like
earthquakes and Barry Bonds, and having to play the bloody overpaid Braves,
we haven't had a descent shot at the title since 1961!
At least the Dodgers (spit) are losing too.
>I remember being at an '86 World Series party in Waltham (MA). This poor
>bastard had the bottle of champaign between his thighs, his thumbs on the
>cork...then the ball dropped.
Buckner will be avenged!
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:45:51
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: world series
At 12:02 PM 2/23/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>> > note to other non-baseball fans: do not get within 20 feet of penguin
>> > boy during baseball season if there is a game on.
>>
>> Ok, fine. My ex-girlfriend is a Cubs fan. You learn to just shake your
>> head and dust them off occasionally. :-)
>>
>> > I don't like baseball. Too slllloooooooooooooooooooooow.
>
>That's why Baseball is America's favorite *pass time*, not
>favorite sport. <g>
>
>There's nothing better than being able to go out to a game on a
>warm sunny afternoon...
<snip>
Wow, that was beautifully done.
Last year, we took some friend's kids to Pac Bell Park for a game. Great
summer day, Giants/Cubbies, so I could root for both sides.. perfect
baseball day.
As we stood in Willie Mays Plaza it came out that these young'uns had
*never* heard "Casey at the Bat." Shocking! I happen to know it by heart,
so I started reciting it. I didn't notice that I was attracting an
audience until I finished and the applause broke out. :)
Casey at the Bat:
http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~ghalbig/read/thayer.html
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies. On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets.
- Rich Clancey
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:23:20
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: New Anti-Armor concept...
At 09:25 AM 2/23/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>OK, this isn't exactly state-of-the-art penguin technology, but I thought
>the TML assemblage might find the following article of interest:
>
>http://www.ssgfx.com/nfa/ROSCO/
LOL!
>
>(Star Wars, it *ain't*!)
Oh, I don't know Mark.. small, furry creatures taking out heavy armor..
seems I saw that in some Star Wars film or another...
- --
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
- -Chicago reader, 10/15/82
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:08:22 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:53:23 -0800 (PST)
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Glenn, this was also on the front page of the Oregonian today.
While it's interesting, I find it sad that it comes as such a surprise
to the general populace, considering that this information has been
common knowledge (in the scientific community) for *decades*,
at the very least. Here's just a thumbnail timeline of the known
extinctions:
- -650 million years - Precambrian mass extinction (70% of all life
on earth perished.)
- -543-510 million years - Cambrian mass extinction (4 in this
period, actually.)
- -450 million years - Ordovician mass extinction.
- -360 million years - Devonian mass extinction.
- -250 million years - Permian period mass extinction (prior to the
evolution of cockroaches, I might add.) This was the most devastating
extinction in earth history. Between 90% and 95% of all marine species
perished.
- -180 million years - Triassic mass extinction. 35% of all species perish.
- -65 million years - End-Cretaceous (KT) mass extinction. This is the
dinosaur killer. 85% of all terrestrial species perished.
and I'm sure I missed at least a couple.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:16:38 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
>On a different level, I can remember reading some of Dorothy L Sayer's
>_Lord Peter Wimsey_ books (written ~60 years ago), and in them the
>author would include dialogue or even entire paragraphs in French -
>clearly working on the assumption that her (educated, English) readers
>would understand them without needing a translation.
Try reading an ancient history book from about the same time period. They've
no qualms about dropping in classical greek. In the Greek alphabet.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:22:24 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
>So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent dinosaur
>100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they have left any
>traces of their presence that we would find now?
100,000 million years ago is ten times the age of the universe,
approximately. But I understand what you're trying to say. There are fossils
of actual dinosaurs, so there's a pretty good chance we'd have fossils of
them, or their immediate "primate-brained" ancestors.
Ummm, what else. The Nazca Lines would say "Hello, monkey successors! Sorry
we missed you!"
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:28:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: New Anti-Armor concept...
At 09:25 AM 2/23/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>OK, this isn't exactly state-of-the-art penguin technology, but I thought
>the TML assemblage might find the following article of interest:
>
>http://www.ssgfx.com/nfa/ROSCO/
Hm...I don't know FFS quite well enough, but...
GT: 5mm TL 8 recoilless rifle, muzzle-loader, with HEAT (not allowed at 5mm,
but who cares). Very low power, extremely short barrel
Malf crit, Damage 1d(10), SS 11, Acc +4, 1/2D 20, Max 560, ROF 1/6, $125, weight 0.045 lb + .00125 lb/shot.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:29:02 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: The spirit of the game
On Friday, February 23, 2001 10:32 AM
Douglas E. Berry said,
> Look, at least y'all aren't Giants fans. Between natural diasters like
> earthquakes and Barry Bonds, and having to play the bloody overpaid
Braves,
> we haven't had a descent shot at the title since 1961!
You forgot lack of talent. ;)
*Duck*
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Minion of SheChemist and GothBunny
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
===========================
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have in some measure clarified
your attitude toward him. You have given a definite answer to a definite
problem. For better or for worse, you have acted decisively. In a way the
next move is up to him!" -Robert Heinlein
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:30:36 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: world series
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
"I'd rather watch J-League (soccer), where you have to have a good
body, and being cute is a plus, and the game actually is interesting..."
Ms. Morgan,
While I agree with your assessment that football (soccer) players might
be "cuter", I cannot even imagine a football game being remotely
interesting. This, of course, is due to my upbringing.
Games go for 90 minutes, or more, and no one scores. Defense is far
stronger and, thanks to the rules about passing the ball, the offense is
pitifully weak. If a soccer game is scoreless after 90 minutes, you've been
bored for that long. If a baseball game is scoreless after 9 innings,
you've been watching two pitchers duel against each other, batter by batter.
FIFA's rules about how games are won after regulation are asinine. In
a World Cup recently, the title was awarded to the team that won a kicking
contest! Here we have a true world championship. Teams vie for years to
enter it, the playoffs take months, and finally we have, arguably, the two
best teams in the entire world playing each other. If they are tied after
regulation, the honest-to-god world title goes to the team who wins a
kicking contest! Absurd! Idiocy!
Just a small suggestion to FIFA; PLAY THE DAMN GAME. Only a wog or
commie could have come up with the system you have now.
Imagine, the Super Bowl tied after 4 quarters. Do we keep playing?
Nope, let's have a field goal contest. The World Series tied after 6 games
and 9 innnings? Home run derby of course! The NBA championships? A free
throw contest. Sound stupid? Of course it does.
Don't expect North America to take football seriously until you let a
team WIN the world championship game.
Larsen
P.S. As to the upsurge in football's popularity in the US, don't bet on it.
My grandfather played in a pro league in Texas during the early 1900s. It
never came to anything. Once the current US women's team grows old or
breaks up, the hype will die down too. We've too many sports choices for
football to succeed now. Our vesion of "footie" is baseball; the old game
everyone learns to love as a kid. It's too late for football to gain that
status in the US.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:47:02 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
"Here's just a thumbnail timeline of the known extinctions:
- -650 million years - Precambrian mass extinction (70% of all life
on earth perished.)
- -543-510 million years - Cambrian mass extinction (4 in this
period, actually.)
- -450 million years - Ordovician mass extinction.
- -360 million years - Devonian mass extinction.
- -250 million years - Permian period mass extinction (prior to the
evolution of cockroaches, I might add.) This was the most
devastating extinction in earth history. Between 90% and 95% of all marine
species perished.
- -180 million years - Triassic mass extinction. 35% of all species
perish.
- -65 million years - End-Cretaceous (KT) mass extinction. This is the
dinosaur killer. 85% of all terrestrial species perished."
Mr. Cook,
Thank you for the extinction timetables above. I wish I could have
found and provided it during an earlier thread.
In the "deep space refueling" thread last month, I mentioned the idea
of "Nemesis"; an extremely distant stellar companion of Sol. When the
reason for the "dinosaur killer" event was pretty much settled in favor of a
planetoid impact, scientists began looking at the earlier episodes for
similar clues. The idea was that a regular perturbtion of the Oort cloud
and/or Kuiper belt might account for the extinctions. I believe there was
even an attmept to calculate a probable orbit for "Nemesis".
I don't know how far along the theory got or whether it was well
recieved. I do know that I haven't read about it recently, so it might have
failed in the face of new facts or detailed analysis.
As an aside, some scientists believe Earth is in the throes of another
great extinction.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3736
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3737
Date: | 2/23/01 1:55:40 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Friday, February 23 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3737
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: world series
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: The spirit of the game
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: world series
: Waaay OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot...
RE: All your base are belong to us!
RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re:
UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
RE: world series
RE: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: The spirit of the game
Re: Democracy Now!
Re: New Anti-Armor concept...
Re: world series
Temp Conversion
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: Temp Conversion
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:57:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: world series
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Just a small suggestion to FIFA; PLAY THE DAMN GAME. Only a wog or
> commie could have come up with the system you have now.
LOL.
> Don't expect North America to take football seriously until you let a
> team WIN the world championship game.
and the operative word in that sentence is "let"?
LOL.
It's so much fun to watch you, Larsen!
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:59:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
> As an aside, some scientists believe Earth is in the throes of another
> great extinction.
Well, it is. However, this one isn't caused by a cometary impact.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:00:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: The spirit of the game
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Volker wrote:
> I am studying japanese, apart from law, and i have come across this
> particular attitude in a certain genre of japanese literature, the
> Nihonjinron. Some authors claim that outsiders cannot possibly
> understand things japanese, because you need the japanese mindset from
> childhood onward to truly capture the entirety of what these things
> mean.
hmmmm....
What's really funny is when, if you were born outside of Japan (and btw,
you can be part or even, like my friend Chika, 100% Japanese, but people
who think like that still consider you an outsider), you DO demonstrate
that you DID understand exactly what such and such meant.
I love the looks on their faces.
I love it when someone says to me, "You're not Japanese, but you're not
gaijin. I don't know what you are."
Confusing people is fun.
The thing I really dig about Japanese people is that most of them kind of
enjoy the confusion; Americans so often just get mad.
Kiri ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:02:41 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
>I don't know how far along the theory got or whether it was well recieved.
>I do know that I haven't read about it recently, so it might have failed in
>the face of new facts or detailed analysis.
(Referring to the Nemesis theory, for those just joining us)
The major problem with Nemesis was the need for a 26 million year orbit. An
orbit that long with perihelion in the Oort cloud would put Nemesis more
than a light year out at aphelion. It's difficult to see how it wouldn't
wander off into galactic space at the slightest provocation.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:16:22 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: world series
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
"It's so much fun to watch you, Larsen!"
Ms. Morgan,
Ah, milady, (waves a large floppy hat and sketches a clumsy bow) you do
me an honor far beyond my due with your praise.
I am so pleased that is within the meager efforts of this foolish, grey
headed, fat man to bring you the slightest modicum of hilarity.
I remain, madame, your most humble and obedient servant,
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:23:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: : Waaay OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot...
>Subject: Waaay OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot...
Looking good for me. My brother is a possible.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:22:43 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: All your base are belong to us!
What this is from is a message board.
I play online compuetr games. well someone posteda thread about this one
game. it was originally coded in Japan. well when they sent it to the us the
translated the beginning story into english. well they did not do a very
good job of it to put it mildly.
well a couple of people made a few pictures with the phrase "all you base
are belong to us" doctored into them. well next thing you knew there were
several hundered posts with pictures with that phrase worked into the
picture somewhere.
It blows my mind how this is spreading. People at work who know nothing
about the game or how this got started are do this "all you base are belong
to us" thing. sort of funny in a disturbing lemming kind of way 8P
most of the pictures used in that little clip are ones that were pulled from
the thread.
anyway that is what it is and where it comes from
Hasta
Me
- -----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Bates [mailto:lesbates@minn.net]
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 10:49 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: All your base are belong to us!
>X-Sender: danawolfe@uncia.com (Unverified)
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)
>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:07:23 -0600
>To: lesbates@minn.net
>From: danawolfe@polaris.uncia.com
>Subject: All your base are belong to us!
>
> http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~pyang/base/allyourbase.swf
>
>
Something my landlord forwarded to me.
An adventure in bad translation.
Les
=======================================================
Objects on screen may be more hostile than they appear.
=======================================================
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:26:04 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
>Your essay assignment: Laser weaponry in Traveller. What do you see as
>the advantages/disadvantages to personal lasers, and in what roles would
>they be found?
Now why couldnt i ahve had that essay assignment i could ahve written
something on that 8P
Hasta
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:29:22 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
"The major problem with Nemesis was the need for a 26 million year
orbit. An orbit that long with perihelion in the Oort cloud would put
Nemesis more than a light year out at aphelion. It's difficult to see how it
wouldn't wander off into galactic space at the slightest provocation."
Mr. Drye,
Thank you, sir, for informing me as to the reason the Nemesis theory
was abandoned. I have always wondered why I never heard of it again after
the original spate of articles.
While I do read a great deal during my travels, I'm afraid it's more of
an autodictat nature than any serious study. I flit from topic to topic as
each interests me in turn. While this allows me to hold my own during "five
minute cocktail conversation" on many topics, it also means that my
knowledge in most areas is superficial.
I suppose a good analogy of my mind would be a very large, very shallow
pool with just a few deep spots.
That is exactly what makes this list so much fun to read. Here experts
in many fields; law, weapons, astronomy, etc., all pass along their
knowledge "coated" in Traveller terms. The coating helps me understand the
trickier points of their expertise more easily.
Thanks again.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:30:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
>From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
>So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent dinosaur
>100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they have left any
>traces of their presence that we would find now?
Traces? No. It's unlikely that any traces of any civilization will
survive for 100 million years.
Randolph Carter, if you can find him, and if you can find him in a
coherent condition, would be able to give testimony about it.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 11:35:12 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re:
"Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com> wrote
> Peter Newman wrote:
>
> > Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote
> > > > "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com> wrote
> > > > > before you accept
> > > > > as fact anything anyone says, go look it up for yourself.
> > > > Bloo could you suggest an appropriate source I might use
> > > > to look up the factualness of the above assertion? :)
> > What source, or sources, do you have to prove that I should or
> > shouldn't accept what people say as fact without looking it up
> > myself?
> Well, technically, I can't prove a 'should' as I used it there. It's
> an opinion that you would be well served to look it up for yourself
> rather than accept anything posted here as accurate regarding law.
That does make sense in many cases. However there are some
fields, arguably including law, where a lay person may not
understand what the sources mean. In some cases i might read
a law and wrongly interpret the legal meanings of the words
used without ever having realizing I was doing so. Thus I might
come to the wrong conclusion.
On the other hand if I were to go 'Bloo is a lawyer and seems
like a pretty smart guy based on our interactions so I'll just
take his word for it.' Than I would be using your conclusion,
not mine. If your conclusion about what a law says is not superior
to mine than, no offense intended, what did you do in law school?
Why shouldn't I take your word for it rather than reading something
I might not understand?
(Of course it would be better still to learn enough so that
I _could_ read and understand the laws but that will take time.)
> The original poster said that in the U.S. the phrase "Dungeons
> & Dragons" is protected by US copyright law, but is protected
> by trademark law (and not copyright law) in Europe.
>
> That statement is incorrect.
> Because it is incorrect, you should not accept it as true.
>
> A wise persons should also be skeptical of my statement and
> would be well advised to reseach the matter for themselves,
> so that they may draw their own conclusion. This is why
> when discussing legal matters, I always attempt to provide
> links so that others may read for themselves and come to
> their own conclusion of what is true and what is not, rather
> than accept my statements as fact.
Yes, providing links is helpful. I was merely pointing out that
the link might cause people to read, and then misunderstand,
the law instead of relying on your summary for the lay person.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:39:53 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com>
Subject: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long
Someone wrote:
> This is a twisted trade war going on right now between
> manufacturers and UK consumers.
Ah-ha. Wierd. How on earth does something like this perpetuate itself?
You would think this kind of thing would self-correct in the
supposedly "free market". I don't see any external factors making
a UK operation any intrinsically more expensive than any other...
Someone else wrote:
> Well, Canada uses 120 V power, the UK uses 240. Canada uses NTSC video,
> the UK uses PAL. Shall I continue?
Power, pffftp. My Thinkpad power supply is rated 100-240 V. Don't
be silly, Leonard - converting voltage is pretty trivial, especially
for devices with external power supplies and DC inputs.
As for NTSC versus PAL (or SECAM), it's a lot more common to have
multi-mode TVs & VCRs in Europe that support PAL, NTSC and SECAM.
I mean, anyone with half a brain in the UK with a DVD player has
had it unlocked to watch region 1 movies.
Anyway, things are not equally expensive in the rest of Europe
as another poster pointed out - why not go buy stuff in Germany?
Sure, in theory you have to pay duty, but growing up in a border
town (Sarnia, Ontario, petro-chemical capital of Canada! Ugh!)
I can tell you that a lot of stuff just floats on through without
being seen, especially small things like cameras, walkmans, etc.
Ironically enough, even though they use different analog TV formats,
most modern things like digital cameras and camcorders use exactly
the same on-tape format, regardless of where they're sold. Well,
there may be DV NTSC and DV PAL because of the different frame rates,
but it's a lot less of a difference than it used to be, in that
if you're doing online nonlinear editing the conversion is trivial.
Ethan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:37:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
>From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
>Glenn, this was also on the front page of the Oregonian today.
>
>While it's interesting, I find it sad that it comes as such a surprise
>to the general populace, considering that this information has been
>common knowledge (in the scientific community) for *decades*,
>at the very least. Here's just a thumbnail timeline of the known
>extinctions:
The general public has known about the cycle of extinctions for a long
time. It surprises no one. This item was news -- not generally known --
because it is the first time that we have found evidence that that
particular extinction phase was caused by an asteroid.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:43:46 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace
Leonard Erickson wrote :
> Well, the box I'm in the process of building is an AMD K6-2-500 (the
> motherboard can't handle anything faster). 320 meg of RAM, I gig gig
> Jaz drive, 100 meg Zip drive, etc. I haven't selected an HD yet, and
> I'm not sure how fast the CD is. It'll have a 100baseTX NIC, though.
>
> It'll connect to my 17 inch monitor via the same electronic KVM box the
> current system is using.
>
> That'll give me this, after I get done re-arranging stuff:
>
> OS CPU RAM Purpose
> ----------- ------------ --- ------------------
> OS/2 Warp 4 AMD K6-2-500 320 "main box"
Gee, someones still using OS/2 ?
Even IBM aren't doing that anymore ! <grin>
> Win98 AMD K6-2-300 320 Windows box
> MacOS 7.6.2 68040 (LC-475) ??? Mac stuff
> Netware 4.2 Pentium 166 256? file server
> DR-DOS 7.03 486DX2-66 64 uucp/fidonet
> "linux" 386DX-??? 16 firewall
>
> Note that other than the firewall and the file server, all of these
> will be using the *same* monitor. And all but the Mac will be using the
> same keyboard and mouse. :-)
Hmm, I _could_ list all the computers on my home LAN, ignoring all the ones
in the garage for the moment, but suffice it to say that other than the Bay
Networks router none are less than P166, and there are seven of them,
including a PIII 650Mhz Toshiba lap-top. More when my eldest son is home
from university.
But then I get an new one every year or two, and I never get rid of the old
ones.
I wonder if I can link my BBC B into the network ?
Was a pretty hot machine back in the eighties, Rockwell 65C02 clocked up to
6Mhz or thereabouts with 256K of RAM and 12 sideways ROM slots.
Anyone know if you can modify eco-net to work with ethernet ?
<grin>
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:57:30 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
It would be, perhaps Ironic, if Earth was home to quite a few races of
intelligent beings. Each "extinction" cycle is the imprint of a race of
beings who managed to become the top of the predator pyramid, only to die
out when they couldn't maintain the food production/energy production
requirements...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:08:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
hal@buffnet.net writes:
> It would be, perhaps Ironic, if Earth was home to quite a few races of
> intelligent beings. Each "extinction" cycle is the imprint of a race of
> beings who managed to become the top of the predator pyramid, only to die
> out when they couldn't maintain the food production/energy production
> requirements...
Unfortunately, relatively easy to detect. Most fossil fuels, and all nuclear
fuels, are far older than the dinosaurs, so we'd tend to detect the resource
depletion if nothing else.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:31:40 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: world series
Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote :
> I cannot even imagine a football game being remotely
> interesting. This, of course, is due to my upbringing.
> Games go for 90 minutes, or more, and no one scores. Defense is far
> stronger and, thanks to the rules about passing the ball,
There are no rules about passing the ball.
> the offense is pitifully weak.
Hmm, obviously never seen a good striker in action.
> If a soccer game is scoreless after 90 minutes,
> you've been bored for that long.
You macho philistine !
Why is it that only _scoring_ is exciting to you ?
If a football game is scorelss after 90 minutes, then you've likely just had
a a very exciting game. A high scoring game means that one or both of the
teams are not very good, and the game is unlikely to be exciting.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:34:23 -0600
From: "Dave McKenna" <Dave.McKenna@MurrayState.edu>
Subject: RE: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
I remember a few years ago, there was an editorial in some technical
magazine I was reading at the time. It discussed the extinction of the
dinosaurs, and proposed several alternate hypotheses to the cataclysmic
asteroid scenario that is currently en vogue. My favorite one (number three
on their list) started with the premise, that, if you should walk out of
your house in the morning and discover that your car is not in the driveway
where you parked it the night before, you would hardly be likely to
immediately think "My God, my car has become extinct." You would likely
think "My God, my car's been ripped off!!" This is quite possibly the
reason that the dinosaurs vanished. As the article (which I am
unfortunately unable to cite since my memory ain't good enough) points out,
dinosaurs were nothing if not walking mountains of protein. It is quite
possible that they were extensively hunted as food by a space faring race
(the Ancients, no doubt), who took most of them off-planet, but cleverly
left a number of corpses lying around to form fossil remains - the perfect
crime.
For those that are interested, number one on the list was the "not tonite
honey, I have a headache" syndrome; number two (which incidentally led
directly to #1) was the excessive height of dinosaurs - they tended to be
frequently struck by lightning.
Hmmm. Sorry, must be Friday.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:27:31 -0500
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: The spirit of the game
>I am studying japanese, apart from law, and i have come across this
particular
attitude in a certain genre of japanese literature, the Nihonjinron.
Some authors claim that outsiders cannot possibly understand things
japanese, because you need the japanese mindset from childhood onward
to truly capture the entirety of what these things mean.<
I study Okinawan martial arts. From everything i have experienced, the
Japanese never understood that and their Karate shows it.
>The thing I really dig about Japanese people is that most of them kind of
enjoy the confusion; Americans so often just get mad.<
I have found that in martial arts they tend to either develop an extreme
inferiority complex or and extreme megalomania. Both are quite peculiar to
view.
Sam
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:29:46 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Democracy Now!
At 11:28 PM -0800 2/22/01, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >>Oh? Check the travel times between California and the east coast back
> >>before the railroad.
> >
> > <Shrug>
> >
> > The bulk of the US was within decent travel times and the railroad
> > came shortly afterward (and the issue if communications, the
> > telegraph was earlier than the railroad, but I don't know the date).
> > Also, the times even for pony express wasn't bad either. Much better
> > than in the Imperium.
>
>The pony express operated for less than two years. MUCH less. The
>telegraph and railroad replaced it. And I'm not certain but I don't
>think the telegraph was all *that* far ahead of the railroad.
Right.
And that only serves to highlight how short of a time we are talking
about. Pony express was the worst and it was quickly replaced with
even better communications.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:25:57 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: New Anti-Armor concept...
Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> writes:
>At 09:25 AM 2/23/2001 -0800, you wrote:
> >OK, this isn't exactly state-of-the-art penguin technology, but I thought
> >the TML assemblage might find the following article of interest:
> >
> >http://www.ssgfx.com/nfa/ROSCO/
>
>Hm...I don't know FFS quite well enough, but...
>GT: 5mm TL 8 recoilless rifle, muzzle-loader, with HEAT (not allowed at 5mm,
>but who cares). Very low power, extremely short barrel
>Malf crit, Damage 1d(10), SS 11, Acc +4, 1/2D 20, Max 560, ROF 1/6,
>$125, weight 0.045 lb + .00125 lb/shot.
Oh, God. The next thing you know, we'll be seeing specs. for the new
PGMP-Mk II (that's "Plasma Gun, Marmot-Portable".)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:37:35 -0600 (CST)
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: world series
> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:02:16 -0600
> From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
> Subject: Re: world series
>
> Ob Trav: Baseball lives IMTU...that's all I can say. <g>
>
> Eris
Did you catch my Amber Zone in JTAS a couple of weeks ago?
I actually have the souvenier to go with it: an "Uphold
Democracy" commemorative baseball, from the Team Manufacturing plant in
the Light Industrial Complex, Port au Prince, Haiti.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:57:47 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <tvickers@conroe.isd.tenet.edu>
Subject: Temp Conversion
Anyone here know the formula for converting Temps in Kelvin to Farenhite?
TV
_______________________________________
We're not just going th shoot the bastards. We are going to cut out their
living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. WE are going to
murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel.
George C. Scott (Patton)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:50:17 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
>It would be, perhaps Ironic, if Earth was home to quite a few races of
>intelligent beings. Each "extinction" cycle is the imprint of a race of
>beings who managed to become the top of the predator pyramid, only to die
>out when they couldn't maintain the food production/energy production
>requirements...
Remember that the original question was asking about signs of a civilization
no higher that TL3.
Once it hits the stage of Industrial Revolution (and maybe even a bit
before), it gets a lot harder to wipe out all traces. For one thing, all the
easily accessible coal and oil would be gone. They don't call them
"non-renewable" sources for nothing. Even 100 million years wouldn't be
enough to bring much of it back. Similar things would happen with veins of
metal ore and the like.
And since I'm talking about mining, the bigger strip mines and gravel pits
would be noticeable for a long time.
(Slag piles, slugs of refined uranium with all the U-235 gone, plants and
animals with genes in them from elsewhere in Richard Scarry's Bumper Book of
Life, I could go on.)
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:52:18 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Temp Conversion
>Anyone here know the formula for converting Temps in Kelvin to Farenhite?
http://www.admiralmetals.com/metric_conv.htm
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3737
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Traveller-digest Friday, February 23 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3738
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: world series
Re: H2 vs H2O
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: Rules question concerning GT
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: Temp Conversion
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: (mostly OT) Cricket
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Allen Steele
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: (mostly OT) Cricket
Re: now completely OT (was re:" world" series)
Re: Allen Steele
Re: The spirit of the game
Re: Attn.: Penguin-Lovers
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:56:19 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: world series
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
"There are no rules about passing the ball."
Mr. Pitt,
Thank you for repsonse to my post concerning the world's most popular
game. While my views do no agree with yours, I did did point out that they
arise from my not being exposed to football as a child.
My comment about passing the ball was poorly written, a problem with
far too many of my posts. What I meant to say there are prohibitions about
to whom and to where the ball can be passed.
IIRC, an offensive player can be no nearer the goal than any defensive
player, unless he is in possession of the ball. If true, this shackles
offensive players' movements. A player can not dart pass a defender,
recieve a pass, and then attmept to score. Any striker, no matter how good,
is forced to dribble his way past a succession of glue footed defenders, no
matter how bad. The brilliance of his play is constantly diluted by the
mediocraty of those around him. Considering this, it's amazing he ever
scores at all.
Admittedly, my knowledge of footbal is pitifully weak, but is my
example above wrong?
"You macho philistine! Why is it that only _scoring_ is exciting to
you ?"
Mr. Pitt, such insults are beneath you.
I believe I did mention a that a scoreless game in baseball would
involve the a very exciting "duel" between two pitchers. If I had been
exposed to football as a child, the same defensive struggle between football
sides would be equally exciting.
In my defense, I should mention that I much prefer low scoring,
defensive games in American football too. However, I prefer basball to
American football. Out football combines the two worst features of our
culture; violence and committee meetings.
I did notice that you made no mention of football's asinine way to
settle tie games in your passionate defense of the game to me. Do you
prefer a kicking contest to the thrilling game play you wrote about?
As for my unhealthy interest in "scoring", it stems from a life time of
failures in the pusuit of women, and I'd thank you not to mention it.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:58:37 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
At 3:12 PM +1100 2/23/01, Timothy Little wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote:
> > If you want to store the most hydrogen, I tend to go with as big a
> > hydrocarbon as you can handle.
>
>The biggest one I could find offhand (hexadecane, or cetane), has a
>hydrogen density of 116 kg/m^3 (1.62 ton/dton). Concentrated ammonia
>solution has the same hydrogen density, but more useful "waste"
>products
I found something bigger, but I don't remember where. It was a bit better.
Thinking about it; you want something small, with a high dipole
moment, and a large %age of hydrogen atoms. Maybe the best would be
liquid HF.
>Unfortunately I lost the original post, but someone commented that
>such fuel would be useful only for making multiple jumps. I don't
>think so. I see two possibilities:
>
>1) You need all the fuel at once to enter jumpspace, and trivial
>amounts to none while in jump. This means that the ship need not
>store its fuel while in jump. Costs are greatly reduced since you
>don't need large tanks capable of long-term cryogenic storage of LH2,
>and less of the ship's volume is taken up by the tanks.
>
>2) Most of the hydrogen goes into maintaining the jump bubble. In
>this case, you can refine the fuel as you go, and again save
>significant space and cost by not needing long-term cryogenic storage
>of LH2. In this case though, you still need storage tanks for H2O or
>whatever.
> You would probably still have a small reserve tank of LH2 to smooth
>out fluctuations in supply from the fuel proessors, and of course at
>least one or two backup processors. One dton of fuel processor
>including power plant slice etc. can output 1300 dtons of fuel over
>the course of the week in jump.
>
>
>Either way, you save a lot by using unrefined fuel instead of LH2.
Needing hydrogen when you start jump is conical in Marc's recent
article. (I don't know if there is something earlier). However, if
you waive that restriction, then you can save a lot of space.
(Which, to me, is a bad thing because it makes existing background
hard to justify).
Thus, if you assume that you need to use fuel faster than you can
convert split the hydrocarbon, ammonia, HF, or whatever then you have
to be albe to store one jump of fuel. However, this still means that
storage of fuel in more compact forms implies that having fuel for a
second jump should be more common (as it is now, it is quite rare in
designs).
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 13:49:41 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Larsen Whipsnade <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>Mr. Cook,
> Thank you for the extinction timetables above. I wish I could have
>found and provided it during an earlier thread.
> In the "deep space refueling" thread last month, I mentioned the idea
>of "Nemesis"; an extremely distant stellar companion of Sol. When the
>reason for the "dinosaur killer" event was pretty much settled in favor of a
>planetoid impact, scientists began looking at the earlier episodes for
>similar clues. The idea was that a regular perturbtion of the Oort cloud
>and/or Kuiper belt might account for the extinctions. I believe there was
>even an attmept to calculate a probable orbit for "Nemesis".
> I don't know how far along the theory got or whether it was well
>recieved. I do know that I haven't read about it recently, so it might have
>failed in the face of new facts or detailed analysis.
> As an aside, some scientists believe Earth is in the throes of another
>great extinction.
Yes, there's wide acceptance in the scientific community that humans
are driving the latest mass extinction (the Quaternary M.E.) So far, the
hardest hit orders/classes of animal life include Coleoptra (Insecta),
amphibia, aves, and large mammals.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:02:37 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
At 10:32 AM -0800 2/23/01, Dave Strebe wrote:
>So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent dinosaur
>100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they have left any
>traces of their presence that we would find now?
Probably. Stone work, tombs, and various tools are all preserved
more easily than the bones we already see.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:10:13 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
At 9:53 AM -0800 2/23/01, Glenn Goffin wrote:
>http://www.msn.com/
>news article:
>Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Just for the record, you aren't "wiping out life". You are causing
mass extinctions but some stuff survives.
However, it is possible to wipe out life in a "sterilizing impact".
Fortunately, these only occur very early in a planets lifetime. It
has been speculated, however, that life started several times on the
Earth only to be wiped out. This is based on the evidence that life
originated almost immediately (in the geological sense) at the end
(or before) of the late heavy bombardment. If life starts up that
fast, it could have started up in the interval between the last two
sterilizing impact.
However, it isn't clear what a "sterilizing impact is". A big impact
can boil off the oceans. But with the evidence of subsurface
ecosystems, it maybe that you not only have to boil the oceans but
also bake the crust a bit.
[Disclaimer: All opinions on these matters are my own and don't
represent any organization...]
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:13:45 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Rules question concerning GT
At 7:31 PM +0100 2/23/01, Volker wrote:
>In a recent game we had a certain problem concerning combat.
>The problem was that wearing Battledress, and getting PGMP-13 fire,
>there was only a very narrow window of survival for the PC´s.
>Either the damage was too low, and there wouldn´t even be a sign that
>he had just taken a hit, or the damage was too high, and he was toast.
>Between these two extremes (uninjured/gone for good) was only a tight
>margin of about 20 damage points.
>Is this intentional?
It pretty much falls out when you start realistically modelling such
things. (If you have huge energies and super hard armors, the frail
human body doesn't compare.).
> In MT the dmg from any firearm was reduced by
>distance and there was a much wider range of survival than in GT. I
>have not yet found a rule to solve this problem in GT, but must admit
>that I have only just begun playing with Gurps rules...
If you don't want to kill players, the first thing to do is not aim
for vitals or brain and use the blow through rule (the weapon drills
a hole in you, doing HT worth of hitpoints, and then blows out the
back side). There are some cinematic rules scattered around, but I
don't use them so I can't recommend them....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:16:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
David P. Summers writes:
> At 10:32 AM -0800 2/23/01, Dave Strebe wrote:
> >So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent dinosaur
> >100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they have left any
> >traces of their presence that we would find now?
>
> Probably. Stone work, tombs, and various tools are all preserved
> more easily than the bones we already see.
Of course, bear in mind that there were an awful lot more dinosaurs than
the number of bones we've found. The odds of finding remnants from a TL0-3
culture are probably greater than the odds of finding remnants from another
dinosaur species with similar geographic distribution and length of existence,
but since there's huge gaps in the fossil record, it's obviously possible to
miss species that have existed for millions of years over a fairly large
area, which means missing a low-tech culture shouldn't be too hard either.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:16:30 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Temp Conversion
> Anyone here know the formula for converting Temps in Kelvin
>to Farenhite?
F = 32+ 9*(K + 273.15)/5
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:17:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
David P. Summers writes:
> However, it isn't clear what a "sterilizing impact is". A big impact
> can boil off the oceans. But with the evidence of subsurface
> ecosystems, it maybe that you not only have to boil the oceans but
> also bake the crust a bit.
Well, in any case, an impact similar to the one that created the moon should
be enough ;)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:25:05 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
> > However, it isn't clear what a "sterilizing impact is". A big > impact
>can boil off the oceans. But with the evidence of subsurface
> > ecosystems, it maybe that you not only have to boil the oceans but
> > also bake the crust a bit.
>
>Well, in any case, an impact similar to the one that created the moon
>should be enough ;)
Now I know what I'm doing for the science fair this year.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:25:28 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: (mostly OT) Cricket
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
>
> Cricket? Less running and more time for beer drinking? Sounds good to
>me. Where's the sign up list?
> I like the fact that you can throw spit balls in cricket. I do not
>like the idea of flat bats.
> While ambling through a park in Melbourne, Australia once many years
>ago, several young discerned I was a "yank" and coaxed me into taking a turn
>at bat in front of the wicket. I watched a few pitches at first, then
>signalled the young man to "bring the heat". He uncorked what a believe is
>called a "googly", whereupon I spanked it into the ozone.
> Flat bats. Too easy.
>
>
> Larsen
>P.S. The result of my "at-bat" was not due to any athletic prowess, indeed I
>have none beyond cheating kiddies out of milk money with three walnut shells
>and a pea. Rather, it was thanks to several pints of Newcastle safely, and
>happily, enscounced behind my belt buckle.
And in the words of the late, great Stan McCabe "Any damn fool can hit full tosses".
BTW, as a paid-up member of the Leg Spinners' Sub-section of the Slow Bowlers Union, go and try
and hit us into the ozone any time you want. Some of the time it will go straight up, straight down, and
have someone underneath it to catch. Or you'll pick the wrong ball to hit, and in cricket, it's 'one strike
and you're out' (1)
The googly, btw, was invented by a gentleman called Bosanquet in the early 1900s - it is a ball that
looks like it will bounce and spin right to left, but actually spins left to right. He described it as 'Not
illegal, but merely immoral'. Depending where you are, it is also known as the wrong 'un or bosie.
Oh, and I think both sports can learn from each other ... Glen McGrath's deceptively slower ball was
learned from Craig McDermott, who learned it from Greg Chappell - who learned it as a 'split finger
fastball', back when he played baseball.
Ian Whitchurch
ObTrav #1 : In the old days, English cricket teams would take the four-month trip to Australia and New
Zeland by boat to play a series of matches. On a jump-4 ship, with a jump every 10 days, this should
take you about 40 parsecs.
ObTrav#2 : There were serious diplomatic repercussions form the infamous 'Bobyline' series in the
1930s, where Douglas Jardine taught Australians there were worse things than losing. It did not get to
the stage of recall of ambassadors, but the tensions from it did impact on commercial relations.
(1) Cricket defines the strike zone with those bits of wood. Much more sensible than an umpire making
a judgement call.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:38:50 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
At 2:16 PM -0800 2/23/01, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
> > At 10:32 AM -0800 2/23/01, Dave Strebe wrote:
> > >So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent dinosaur
> > >100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they have left any
> > >traces of their presence that we would find now?
> >
> > Probably. Stone work, tombs, and various tools are all preserved
> > more easily than the bones we already see.
>
>
>Of course, bear in mind that there were an awful lot more dinosaurs than
>the number of bones we've found. The odds of finding remnants from a TL0-3
>culture are probably greater than the odds of finding remnants from another
>dinosaur species with similar geographic distribution and length of existence,
>but since there's huge gaps in the fossil record, it's obviously possible to
>miss species that have existed for millions of years over a fairly large
>area, which means missing a low-tech culture shouldn't be too hard either.
To me "probably" sums it up OK. I think that any stone age+ culture
will leave enough stuff behind (and, at the level, you have the
technology to spread almost everywhere and be numerous in numbers.
Humans are one of the few Omnivores that are present in herbivore
numbers). However, the points you raise are reasons why you can't be
sure.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:39:36 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
At 2:17 PM -0800 2/23/01, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>David P. Summers writes:
>
> > However, it isn't clear what a "sterilizing impact is". A big impact
> > can boil off the oceans. But with the evidence of subsurface
> > ecosystems, it maybe that you not only have to boil the oceans but
> > also bake the crust a bit.
>
>Well, in any case, an impact similar to the one that created the moon should
>be enough ;)
Yes. Most people would say that melting the crust would be sufficient!
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:40:12 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
At 5:25 PM -0500 2/23/01, Paul Drye wrote:
>> > However, it isn't clear what a "sterilizing impact is". A big >
>>impact can boil off the oceans. But with the evidence of subsurface
>> > ecosystems, it maybe that you not only have to boil the oceans but
>> > also bake the crust a bit.
>>
>>Well, in any case, an impact similar to the one that created the
>>moon should be enough ;)
>
>Now I know what I'm doing for the science fair this year.
Creating a new moon by hitting the Earth with a sterilizing impact?
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:41:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Allen Steele
I have just started reading his stuff and I really like it. Anyone else
like it, have thoughts on its relevance to Traveller, etc?
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:47:57 -0800
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@INTERGATE.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Maybe, but what if their tech took a different road, maybe along the lines
of Harrison's 'Eden' series (forgot the titles 'West of Eden' springs to
mind
as one of them)
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Cc: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
> hal@buffnet.net writes:
> > It would be, perhaps Ironic, if Earth was home to quite a few races of
> > intelligent beings. Each "extinction" cycle is the imprint of a race of
> > beings who managed to become the top of the predator pyramid, only to
die
> > out when they couldn't maintain the food production/energy production
> > requirements...
>
> Unfortunately, relatively easy to detect. Most fossil fuels, and all
nuclear
> fuels, are far older than the dinosaurs, so we'd tend to detect the
resource
> depletion if nothing else.
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:53:05 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: (mostly OT) Cricket
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
"BTW, as a paid-up member of the Leg Spinners' Sub-section of the Slow
Bowlers Union, go and try and hit us into the ozone any time you want. Some
of the time it will go straight up, straight down, and
>have someone underneath it to catch. Or you'll pick the wrong ball to hit,
>and in cricket, it's 'one strike and you're out' (1)"
Mr. Whitchurch,
Well it looks as if my brief moment of cricketing glory was even more
of improbability then I previously thought, if that's possible. Just
another ode to the power of ale.
"The googly, btw, was invented by a gentleman called Bosanquet in the
early 1900s - it is a ball that looks like it will bounce and spin right to
left, but actually spins left to right. He described it as 'Not
illegal, but merely immoral'."
I've always had a soft place in my withered heart for anything called a
"googly" but now knowing that it's own inventor referred to it as "not
illegal, but merely immoral" I love the "googly" even more. Thank you even
more for that wonderful little tidbit.
Are pitchers, excuse me, bowlers(?) thought of in cricket the same way
as they are in baseball? It's "common knowledge" that pitchers are the
strangest members of any team, even developing their own language.
My cryptic "cheese in the kitchen and a yakker for a kudo" can be
explained like this. Cheese (a fastball) in the kitchen (close to the
batter) and a yakker (a slider) for a kudo (a strikeout). The squirrel bait
who came up with that one also referred to liquor as "oil" and money as
"iron".
The use of wickets to call strikes as obvious benefits. We recently
had to break the umpires union here just to get them respond to performance
reviews. Too many very bad umps had too much seniority.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:53:58 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: now completely OT (was re:" world" series)
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: world series
>
>Ms. Morgan,
> While I agree with your assessment that football (soccer) players might
>be "cuter", I cannot even imagine a football game being remotely
>interesting. This, of course, is due to my upbringing.
> Games go for 90 minutes, or more, and no one scores. Defense is far
>stronger and, thanks to the rules about passing the ball, the offense is
>pitifully weak. If a soccer game is scoreless after 90 minutes, you've been
>bored for that long. If a baseball game is scoreless after 9 innings,
>you've been watching two pitchers duel against each other, batter by batter.
> FIFA's rules about how games are won after regulation are asinine.
Well, yeah. The problem is that all the other solutions have problems, too. My solution is sudden-death
overtime, with a player on each side going off every 5 minutes. Seth Blatta (the FIFA president) sees it
as a problem, too.
Mind you, penalty shootouts are really really tense ... the Woollongong goal keeper saved three (!)
penalties to win the Australian league championship game last year, and that basically earned the
team from the Gong a trip to Brazil for the World Club Championship (which a US team may be entered
in ... if they can beat the other North American teams in the qualifiers).
> In
>a World Cup recently, the title was awarded to the team that won a kicking
>contest! Here we have a true world championship. Teams vie for years to
>enter it, the playoffs take months, and finally we have, arguably, the two
>best teams in the entire world playing each other.
But thats the point, isnt it, Larsen ... 'arguably'. I didnt see any J-league teams. I didnt see any
Australian teams. Nobody from Cuba, either.
You call it the 'World Series'. It isnt. Not by a long shot. Sure, the MLB teams will probably win by
weight of money. But if you do it right, with single-elimination and one game played, then we're looking
at 'any given Sunday'.
> Imagine, the Super Bowl tied after 4 quarters. Do we keep playing?
>Nope, let's have a field goal contest.
Thats funny, I could swear most gridiron games tied after OT are won by the team that wins the coin
toss, and takes the territorial advantage from that to ... get into field-goal range and have a kicking
contest. I'd need to check the records for the Superbowl.
>P.S. As to the upsurge in football's popularity in the US, don't bet on it.
> My grandfather played in a pro league in Texas during the early 1900s. It
>never came to anything. Once the current US women's team grows old or
>breaks up, the hype will die down too. We've too many sports choices for
>football to succeed now. Our vesion of "footie" is baseball; the old game
>everyone learns to love as a kid. It's too late for football to gain that
>status in the US.
No. With womens' soccer the best way to achieve Title IX compliance, there are going to be a lot of
good women flowing through into the US team. I dont believe that US soccer will ever dispace one of
the major sports, but I can quite easily see a successful niche market.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:09:06 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Allen Steele
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
"I have just started reading his stuff and I really like it. Anyone
else like it, have thoughts on its relevance to Traveller, etc?"
Ms. Morgan,
I'm not sure how much of his work I can discuss without spoiling it for
you. Suffice it to say, I thoroughly enjoy his work especially the way he
illustrates the "workaday" world of his charecters. He equals C.J. Cherryh
in that regard. I've worked in shipyards, refineries, pipelines, etc. and
his picture of everyday life while building a Big Thing(tm) rings true for
me.
I view his workers, and their attitudes, as proto-belters. People who
must deal without gravity control on a daily basis and spend most of their
time suited up. People who, due to few specialized skills or the lack of an
advanced education, are willing to risk a certain amount of personel danger
for the chance to make some big (to them) money.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:24:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: The spirit of the game
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com>
>I study Okinawan martial arts. From everything i have experienced, the
>Japanese never understood that and their Karate shows it.
"If you weren't born on Menorb, you will never really understand the
Irklan fighting style."
"Only pure-blooded Vilani who grew up in the Vilani traditions can really
understand what the shugili brings to the dinner table."
"If you're not a Vargr, you really can't grasp what it is I'm smelling.
OK, Joe is drunker than we and is puking his guts. You can smell that as
well I can. It's the subtle stuff I'm talking about."
[An Ael Yael and a Droyne look quizzically at one another as they fly
past.]
The Hiver says, "* // *)"
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:26:52 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Attn.: Penguin-Lovers
Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> At 10:46 AM 2/23/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>
>> While browsing the web about my other hobby, Manga and anime, I found
>> this link...
>>
>> http://www.fredart.com/fredart/artpage.php3?src=&ft=co&fn=11
>
>
> Hubba Hubba!!
>
>
>> Penguinlovers enjoy :-)
>
>
> We prefer to be called admirers.
You would _prefer_ to be called Yog-Penguoth Lord of the Universe and
Arch High Penguinboy, but I think we'll just call you Douglas. ;-P
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:29:44 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Paul Drye wrote:
>> So just for arguments sake, if there had arisen an intelligent
>> dinosaur 100,000 million years or ago,say between TL0-TL3 would they
>> have left any traces of their presence that we would find now?
>
>
> 100,000 million years ago is ten times the age of the universe,
> approximately. But I understand what you're trying to say. There are
> fossils of actual dinosaurs, so there's a pretty good chance we'd have
> fossils of them, or their immediate "primate-brained" ancestors.
>
> Ummm, what else. The Nazca Lines would say "Hello, monkey successors!
> Sorry we missed you!"
"So long and thanks for all the Cycad leaves" ?? ;-)
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3738
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Traveller-digest Friday, February 23 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3739
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: System defenses
Re: world series
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question
Re: Temp Conversion
Re: The spirit of the game
Re: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long
Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Re: H2 vs H2O
RE: Temp Conversion
Re: world series
Re: H2 vs H2O
Re: world series
Re: Rules question concerning GT
RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
RE: Re : Indefinite life span
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Rules question concerning GT
RE: Ship habitability
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:43:58 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: RE: System defenses
> From: "Terry Carlino"
> I see the Ine Givar on the same footing as the Red Brigade or the
> Weathermen. They have absolutely no chance of overthrowing the Imperium
> or even undermining the government of a local world. That doesn't mean
> that they are not dangerous, disruptive or a problem for security forces.
> It just means that they will ultimately fail in their objective.
I use a factionalised model of the Ine Givar, particularly after the 5FW,
in order to accomodate different views of them. So: IMTU, some are how
Terry sees them.
As other people have pointed out, canon suggests that they could actually
mobilise considerable military forces on certain worlds, particularly
Efate.
Furthermore, there are canonically successful revolts on certain worlds
within their sphere of operations, such as Dinom. While there is no
evidence that they were actually involved in the Dinom events, I assume
they were, IMTU, although they lost a power struggle with more
conservative/xenophobic forces.
The Red Brigades and Weathermen were idiots. Assuming that the Ine Givar
are idiots too isn't the most interesting option, IMHO. At least, assuming
that they stay idiots isn't. It is pretty clear from what we know of the
Marches, that there are plenty of places where an intelligent anti-Imperial
movement could build support for themselves. They just have to learn to
think with their brains and not with their guns.
Hmm. A better analogy for the Ine Givar might be the PLO. But that's a
nationalist movement, which doesn't quite fit the IG. Perhaps it might be
better to think of them as being the equivalent of some of the factions
within the PLO.
> Should they
> actually succeed in deploying a weapon of mass destruction the Imperial
> response will totally crush them. (Because then the Imperium will
> exercise extreme measures to find and kill them that the local populous
> would not normally support. Things like psi agents, draconian ID checks
> and secret police methods, etc.) Should the Joes and the Imperium ever
> make real peace, (as they do in the TNE setting,) then as happened when
> Eastern Germany fell, they will give up all they know of the Ine Givar,
> and it will be quickly shutdown.
I have a vague memory of a canonical instance of a nuke being used by the
IG. This was one of the reasons why I started factionalising them - it
occurred to me that at least some of their members might realise how stupid
such tactics where.
I think you are overestimating the effectiveness of police repression. If
nothing else, the Imperium was probably already using such methods against
them to a considerable degree. One of the problems, of course, is that it
is very difficult to infiltrate an organisation with telepaths in their
security teams.
If the IG are complete puppets of the Zhodani, they will, of course, fail.
That is why they shouldn't become puppets of the Zhodani! In addition, of
course, they can base themselves in the Federation of Arden, the Sword
Worlds, various Vargr states, and on many independent worlds. There is no
reason why they should be completely shut down if the Zhodani were to turn
on them, although obviously they would take a serious hit.
One of the factors behind my factionalised Ine Givar is the rivalry between
pro-Zhodani, pro-Sword Worlds, Vargr and independent groups. Some groups
emphasise psionics, some are soft on human/Solomani supremacy, some
emphasise pansophontism, and so on.
The way I read the Regency sourcebook, it sounded like the Ine Givar had
_won_, and were running the place!
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:44:07 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: world series
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
> P.S. As to the upsurge in football's popularity in the US, don't bet on
> it. My grandfather played in a pro league in Texas during the early
> 1900s. It never came to anything. Once the current US women's team grows
> old or breaks up, the hype will die down too. We've too many sports
> choices for football to succeed now. Our vesion of "footie" is baseball;
> the old game everyone learns to love as a kid. It's too late for
> football to gain that status in the US.
Out of idle curiousity: is soccer more popular in areas with large Latino
populations?
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:45:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Just for the record, you aren't "wiping out life". You are causing
>mass extinctions but some stuff survives.
I just copied the headline. It was sensationalistic and inaccurate, but I
wanted people to be able to find the article easily.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices! http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:52 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Re : Geophysical/Climate Question
In-Reply-To: <10222.234718.1T6.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
Funnily enough, there was a programme about 'Could the earth have ever
gone completely snowball?' on UK TV last night.
The conclusion was that it could - if normal ice age glaciation covered
enough of the surface, too much heat would be reflected away from the
surface leading to a catastropic cooling and hey presto snowball time.
Only one problem, how do you get out of that?
Then someone thought about volcanoes. Not so much the tapping straight
down into magma, which would only heat the ice surrounding the volcano,
but the fact that they emit gas. Lots of gas. Like carbon dioxide - aka
'greenhouse gas'. No plants around to suck it up, so things heat up again
over time, as the gas concentration increases.
(I could give a more detailed account of the evidence and theory behind
this, but I am just about to have tea before bolting out to play
SHADOWRUN, so I won't!)
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:56:20 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Temp Conversion
try http://www.megaconverter.com
Tod
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Vickers" <tvickers@conroe.isd.tenet.edu>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 1:57 PM
Subject: Temp Conversion
> Anyone here know the formula for converting Temps in Kelvin to Farenhite?
>
> TV
>
> _______________________________________
> We're not just going th shoot the bastards. We are going to cut out their
> living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. WE are going
to
> murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel.
> George C. Scott
(Patton)
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:05:17 -0500
From: "Samuel D. Weiss" <samwise1@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: The spirit of the game
>"If you weren't born on Menorb, you will never really understand the
Irklan fighting style."
"Only pure-blooded Vilani who grew up in the Vilani traditions can really
understand what the shugili brings to the dinner table."
"If you're not a Vargr, you really can't grasp what it is I'm smelling.
OK, Joe is drunker than we and is puking his guts. You can smell that as
well I can. It's the subtle stuff I'm talking about."
[An Ael Yael and a Droyne look quizzically at one another as they fly
past.]
The Hiver says, "* // *)"
- --Glenn<
Heh, I don't support that stuff. I was just mocking a group who thinks its
true of other that doesn't want to admit it can be true of themselves.
"Good fences make good neighbors" and all that.
Oh, and tell that Hiver he can stick it!
Punk starfish giving me lip. Errr, tentacle. Whatever. I don't have to take
that from him! It.
Damnit.
Sam
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:06:14 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long
Ethan Henry wrote:
> Someone wrote:
>> This is a twisted trade war going on right now between
manufacturers
>> and UK consumers.
> Ah-ha. Wierd. How on earth does something like this perpetuate
> itself? You would think this kind of thing would self-correct in
> the supposedly "free market". I don't see any external factors
> making a UK operation any intrinsically more expensive than any
> other...
"Free Market" is an oxymoron.
A truly free market results in a few powerful cartels dominating the
market.
That a 'free market' fosters choice, competition, and innovation is a
delusion that libertarians, Rand-o-philes and conservative business
commentators cling to like it's Linus's security blanket.
That this is true is shown by examination of the most truly free market
on the planet: organized crime. (By virtue of it's illegality, it
operates entirely unfettered by government regulation, save one: don't
get caught)
This is how the Medellin, then Cali, then Mexican cocaine cartels work(ed).
Even the Vilani never went to a total free market...they divided up the
stars among the members of the cartel...in large part due to the
destructive effects that unfettered competition among the Bureaux would
have caused. Perhape eventually a single corporation would rule, but
they were fairly equal partners, with vast resources.
The resulting civil war would have devastated the Vilani Empire. yet
without a formal agreement, the megacorps were playing a dangerous game
of Prisoner. Eventually one or another would deem the time ripe for a
strike against the others, and start the final war.
Think a Diplomacy game writ large...very large!
This was why, in part, the free market was curtailed by the Sherman
anti-trust act in the US.
Increasingly, in view of such things as the DMCA (Digital Millenium
Copyright Act) and UCITA (Uniform something something something...a
proposed uniform business code, relating in particular to computers and
software) it's pretty clear that the 'free market' idiots have forgotten
what Rockefeller and Morgan wrought.
These decidedly anti-consumer laws have resulted things like the absurd
notion that consumers are bound by agreements they're not allowed to see
until they consent to the terms. (AKA 'Shrinkwrap licenses')
Under some provisions of UCITA, it is illegal to expose flaws in
software, in fact, a liberal reading of the rules will make it illegal
to publish a negative review of a product. (And you thought the broccoli
anti-defamation laws were bad!)
I'm beginning to think that we're not going to beat the Vilani after
all...in Pogo's immortal words "We have met the enemy, and he is us!"
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:06:42 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Don't wish it gone right away. There are forces at work.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
> > Somehow, I suspect that my chances of getting my hands on Deneb via
DGP's
> > stuff is vanishingly small. Question for Loren:
>
> This is the biggest reason why I think that the DGP material should be
> removed from the body of Traveller canon (sooner rather than later).
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:12:17 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Impact: Earth's life wiped out twice?
Paul Drye wrote:
> Once it hits the stage of Industrial Revolution (and maybe even a bit
> before), it gets a lot harder to wipe out all traces. For one thing, all the
> easily accessible coal and oil would be gone.
Maybe the easily-accessible oil *is* gone, and we're left with having
to mine the stuff instead of just slurping it up from big lakes :)
> (Slag piles, slugs of refined uranium with all the U-235 gone,
> plants and animals with genes in them from elsewhere in Richard
> Scarry's Bumper Book of Life, I could go on.)
There are variations in relative abundance of various isotopes of
radioactive elements, though they do have plausible explanations. And
certainly *lots* of genes are shared between radically different forms
of life, though this too is easily explained by other means.
Not that I think any of this is at all likely or even plausible, but
fun to do far-out speculation on.
Of course, all this assumes that dinosaurs would develop technology
along the same lines that we might. There may be other avenues that
we are blind to because it would never have occurred to us in a
million years (literally) to look for them.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:22:56 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
David P. Summers wrote:
> Thinking about it; you want something small, with a high dipole
> moment, and a large %age of hydrogen atoms. Maybe the best would be
> liquid HF.
Hah, I considered that one but it turned out to be only 50 kg/m^3 of
hydrogen, even worse than liquid H2. Not enough hydrogen per
molecule.
> Needing hydrogen when you start jump is conical in Marc's recent
> article.
OK, that saves you the most since you don't actually need to carry
huge volumes of fuel through jump.
> However, if you waive that restriction, then you can save a lot of
> space. (Which, to me, is a bad thing because it makes existing
> background hard to justify).
In that case, you would be better off positing that you need the
hydrogen throughout jump. Better yet, require most of it at the *end*
of jump in a big burst.
> Thus, if you assume that you need to use fuel faster than you can
> convert split the hydrocarbon, ammonia, HF, or whatever then you
> have to be albe to store one jump of fuel.
However, you can do so in a collapsible or disposable fuel bladder
that doesn't take up volume while in jump. Since 'volume in jump' is
by far the biggest determinant of cost, you save heaps.
> However, this still means that storage of fuel in more compact
> forms implies that having fuel for a second jump should be more
> common (as it is now, it is quite rare in designs).
The main problem is the extra week it takes and the cargo it
displaces. It really would be only suitable for Xboats and
rift-crossers.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:35:32 -0800
From: "J-Man" <jman31415@home.com>
Subject: RE: Temp Conversion
Kelvin to F :
((temp+271.3)*(1/6))+32
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 15:56
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Temp Conversion
try http://www.megaconverter.com
Tod
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Thomas Vickers" <tvickers@conroe.isd.tenet.edu>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 1:57 PM
Subject: Temp Conversion
> Anyone here know the formula for converting Temps in Kelvin to Farenhite?
>
> TV
>
> _______________________________________
> We're not just going th shoot the bastards. We are going to cut out their
> living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. WE are going
to
> murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel.
> George C. Scott
(Patton)
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:25:40 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: world series
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
"Out of idle curiousity: is soccer more popular in areas with large
Latino populations?"
Mr. Bradley,
Oddly enough, some of the results from our latest census show that the
huge influx of hispanics are assimilating faster than the other ethnic
groups that came before them. A very nice point to slap down the xenophobes
with.
They follow the teams back in the "old country" rather than any here in
the US. The current attempt at fielding a pro league is slowly dying and
hispanic faces are few among the fans. Perhaps the level of play isn't good
enough to draw people who've seen the game played the real way.
I've read a news report on the local pro soccer franchise in which
their management admitted their marketing campaign aimed at hispanics was a
failure. The story went on to say that this was the truth for most
franchises too. There were a few exceptions though.
The local franchise's biggest gates have occurred when teams visiting
from abroad played them; Italy, Columbia, Portugal. Most of the time they
"pad" their attendence by handing out free tickets to kiddie leagues.
OBTrav: Are there worlds in Traveller that have been fortunate enough to
recieve long term sustained immigration of an industrious people wanting to
make a better life for their children? How would those worlds handle the
assimilation of these people?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:41:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
Timothy Little writes:
> > Needing hydrogen when you start jump is conical in Marc's recent
> > article.
>
> OK, that saves you the most since you don't actually need to carry
> huge volumes of fuel through jump.
AKA 'drop tanks'. The mechanics involved might be a little tricky, however;
enough to always have a misjump chance, say.
> However, you can do so in a collapsible or disposable fuel bladder
> that doesn't take up volume while in jump. Since 'volume in jump' is
> by far the biggest determinant of cost, you save heaps.
Supposedly collapsible fuel tanks cannot be used to fuel jump. It has never
been explained exactly why.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:54 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: world series
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20010223104551.3ba7e4d8@pop.mindspring.com>
Greetings dear hearts, especially Douglas.
Thank you for the 'Casey at the Bat' poem... while still not knowing
anything about baseball (yes, Mr Whipsnade, your kind offer has been noted
and if I'm ever in the right place at the right time I would be delighted
to accept your escort to a game!) I collect stories and poems for
'traditional storytelling' - my 4 year old may get that in the morning
when she gets out of bed. She's had a daily story since she was 2 days old
(which was when I was well enough to see her...).
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:54 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Rules question concerning GT
In-Reply-To: <113344397.20010223193111@greimann.de>
Greetings dear hearts.
It sounds quite reasonable to me - any damage that is going to get through
a suit of really solid armour isn't going to do much good to the human
being (or member of other species, as appropriate)
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:04:02 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
On 23 Feb 2001, at 8:59, Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
> At 07:02 AM 02/23/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>
> > A TL9 Sniper Rifle might well be Smart enough to have an
> >self-ranging scope and ammunition awareness built-in, if money were no
> >object. Hell, it's possible NOW to do such a thing, and it has been done,
> >just not all at once on the same rifle.
>
> We have a scope like that now, it's produced by Swarovski Optik and is
> called the LRS, or Laser Ranging Scope. Pretty nifty, it determines the
> range and adjusts the scope based on the cam installed.
>
> Get'em now, they're down from $4495.00 at $1995.00!
Don't know that I'd be too keen, were I sniping, on using something with a
laser rangefinder on it, especially a TL or two down the road. Basically the
idea of using active sensors just doesn't appeal.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:04:02 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
On 23 Feb 2001, at 8:04, Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 2/23/01 3:24 AM, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:
>
> >
> > While this is true, with a well made weapon (not an AK-47, etc) it doesn't
> > make a whole lot of difference. Bench-resters will notice, but for the rest of
> > us the difference is small enough that the less accurate bolt-actions of a
> > given make will be less accurate than the more accurate semi-auto of a good,
> > accurate design. IOW unless you're actually giving individual weapons
> > adjustments to accuracy you can generally ignore this, assuming that care has
> > been taken in designing the weapon to make it accurate.
>
> Absolutely true. My Match AR-15 will shoot 1/4" angle with handloads.
> Better than most .223 bolt rifles.
It's a pity I had to sell that M1, as it was in very good nick, and had a low
SA serial number. I reckon that with careful handloading, and a bit of testing
to find out what loads it really liked I might have been able to get down to
1/2" gruops with a scope, which is about as good as you'll ever get from a full-
bore non-benchrest rifle, especially one with a barrel as light as an M1's.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:04:02 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Re : Indefinite life span
On 23 Feb 2001, at 11:28, Terry Carlino wrote:
> I have to wonder if life expectancy in the U.S. was broken down by
> socio-economic groups whether the life expectancy for certain groups in the U.S.
> wouldn't be reflective of rates in other countries. More plainly, separate out
> the lower income socio-economic groups who have little access to health care.
> Would the average life expectancy rise dramatically?
Probably not that much, actually. There was a study (I forget who did iot,
sorry) that showed that the life expectancy in a country was fairly closely
correlated with the differentail in wealth between poor and wealthy, and that
this affected even the wealthy. It didn't, as far as I can remember look at
why.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:04:02 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
On 23 Feb 2001, at 10:19, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Trevor, Peter wrote:
>
> > Glenn Goffin wrote:
> >
> >> Remember that the English upper classes came from France -- Norman
> >> Conquest, 1066, and all that.
> >
> >
> > Bit of trivia: This explains why there are different words for
> > meats as opposed to the animals they come from. A peasant would
> > see a bovine and call it a cow, a French-speaking noble would see
> > bovine meat on his plate and call it a cow ... but the French for
> > cow is "beouff" (sp?). Over the years that became "beef". Same
> > story for pig and porc (pork), etc. The peasants didn't get to
> > eat cows or pigs ... but did eat chicken. Thus, unlike for cows
> > and pigs, the word for the chicken animal and the chicken meat
> > are the same.
>
> Except for some places in the old French empire (somewhere in Southeast Asia),
> where all meat ended up being called 'boeff'. Chicken is named, in this patois,
> 'boueff what fly'. ;-)
>
> The Food Channel has some weird stuff on sometimes...
Try some verions of pidgin english, where everything you can eat is 'beeffe',
so a cow is 'beeffe beeffe', while a sheep is 'sheepe beeffe'.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:04:02 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Rules question concerning GT
On 23 Feb 2001, at 19:31, Volker wrote:
> In a recent game we had a certain problem concerning combat.
> The problem was that wearing Battledress, and getting PGMP-13 fire,
> there was only a very narrow window of survival for the PC´s.
> Either the damage was too low, and there wouldn´t even be a sign that
> he had just taken a hit, or the damage was too high, and he was toast.
> Between these two extremes (uninjured/gone for good) was only a tight
> margin of about 20 damage points.
> Is this intentional? In MT the dmg from any firearm was reduced by
> distance and there was a much wider range of survival than in GT. I
> have not yet found a rule to solve this problem in GT, but must admit
> that I have only just begun playing with Gurps rules...
You'll find that all GURPS combat once firearms come into it is like that. The
easiest way around it is to treat PGMP fire like that of guns, and thus subject
to blow-through. This means that they'll get dropped but not killed by most
shots.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:04:02 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 23 Feb 2001, at 11:01, Terry Carlino wrote:
> That's a different problem. Pay should be commensurate with the risks. Now
> realistically a medic, who is also under fire should be paid more than an
> infantryman. He takes the same risks and has more extensive training.
A properly trained regular infantryman is just as highly trained as the medic.
Thinking that grunts aren't as skilled or trained is a common fallacy, though
during a major war the infantry training standards do tend to drop.
> An
> regular infantryman is like a police officer or fire fighter in that risks
> are part of the job and a premium should be paid for taking that risk.
> However, it is unrealistic to expect that having a higher risk job should
> cancel out all of the other factors. If the infantryman is unhappy with his lot,
> over time he can change it through education, training and plain hard work
> (working to advance.)
Except that advancement in the infantry usually isn't very fast, no matter what
you do.
> It is not the military's job (just as it is not my company's job) to train
> people to increase their marketability when they leave.
Of course not.
> I don't know how the Army classifies new recruits, but in the Navy almost
> everyone is slated for a particular job when they sign on the dotted line.
> Anyone who would be considered good employee material by a civilian company will
> get the opportunity to attend advanced training before they ever come in. In 20
> something years I only ever knew one guy who came in to be a cook.
The NZ Army's cooks get London Chef's Guild quals, so they're highly qualified
chef's if they put a bit of time in. Thus it's a fairly popular way of getting
trained as a chef.
> Most Mess
> Specialist enter that rate because they come in the Navy as an undesignated
> striker. These are the people who, quite honestly, are poor job prospects. They
> generally did marginally in high school (but generally completed it, since the
> Navy typically won't even look at you if you don't have a diploma,) they have no
> college or technical school training, their scores on the ASVAP (or whatever IQ
> test the services are now using) are low. They are people the Navy recruits
> because they need grunt work done. They are a risk the navy is taking. The
> service expects most to do 4 years and get out.
In our Army these people tend to end up in the Infantry, because the REMEs and
Transport & Catering have plenty of applicants and thus get the best personnel.
This is not good, because the nature of modern warfare means that you need
people with brains in your teeth arms.
> ObTrav: (Yes I've got one.) Since we know (from canon) that the Imperial
> Navy can afford to be choosy are there any people who perform the "grunt"
> work?
The existence of a 'maintenence' crew in some design sequences implies that
they do, though they could be supervisors for the 'bots.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3739
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3740
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Traveller-digest Friday, February 23 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3740
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: world series
Re: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long
Re: Allen Steele
Re: [TML] Attn.: Penguin-Lovers
Re: Rules question concerning GT
Re: H2 vs H2O
Re: All your base are belong to us!
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
RE: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Civility and Politeness.
RE: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: Allen Steele
RE: Forms of address: a rebuttal
RE: [TML] Hull jump grids
RE: Civility and Politeness.
RE: Civility and Politeness.
RE: FS Jet Bike (was: Re: Q-ship design)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:04:02 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: world series
On 24 Feb 2001, at 10:31, Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote :
>
> > I cannot even imagine a football game being remotely
> > interesting. This, of course, is due to my upbringing.
> > Games go for 90 minutes, or more, and no one scores. Defense is far
> > stronger and, thanks to the rules about passing the ball,
>
> There are no rules about passing the ball.
I think he's talking about the off-side rule.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:12:06 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long
On 23 Feb 2001, at 17:06, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> That a 'free market' fosters choice, competition, and innovation is a
> delusion that libertarians, Rand-o-philes and conservative business
> commentators cling to like it's Linus's security blanket.
>
> That this is true is shown by examination of the most truly free market
> on the planet: organized crime. (By virtue of it's illegality, it
> operates entirely unfettered by government regulation, save one: don't
> get caught)
Another good example is the development of trade, towns and guilds in medieval
Europe.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:28:19 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: Allen Steele
> I have just started reading his stuff and I really like it. Anyone
> else like it, have thoughts on its relevance to Traveller, etc?
Don't recognize the name... what has he written?
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:07:46 -0500
From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Attn.: Penguin-Lovers
>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:26:52 -0700
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: Attn.: Penguin-Lovers
>You would _prefer_ to be called Yog-Penguoth Lord of the Universe and
>Arch High Penguinboy, but I think we'll just call you Douglas. ;-P
*SPLORT* rack up a near-kill. =) As it is, I'm gonna have to clean cookie
crumbs out of the keyboard....
By the way, who IS keeping track of keyboard kills now that the official
killkeeper is away?
Cheers
- ---
==============================================================
Jonathan McDermott http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@
- ------------------------------------------------------------
"Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."
-Steve Wozniak
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:19:00 -0800
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Rules question concerning GT
Sounds like your basic problem is that you're trying to keep your PCs alive
on modern battlefields where lots of things are trying to make them
(extremely) dead. This is a losing proposition in the long term.
Might I suggest that you explore ways of reducing how often your characters
get into combat? It may not be as exciting, but the best way to survive a
gunfight is not to get into one.
- --------------
Kelly St.Clair "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org Right here in fair Verona
With a capital T that rhymes with D
That stands for Duel..."
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:26:43 +0000
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
I've never noticed why collapsible tanks cant be used for jump, at least
"interior" collapsible tanks.... Where in canon can you find this?
Doug?
Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> Timothy Little writes:
>
> > > Needing hydrogen when you start jump is conical in Marc's recent
> > > article.
> >
> > OK, that saves you the most since you don't actually need to carry
> > huge volumes of fuel through jump.
>
> AKA 'drop tanks'. The mechanics involved might be a little tricky, however;
> enough to always have a misjump chance, say.
>
> > However, you can do so in a collapsible or disposable fuel bladder
> > that doesn't take up volume while in jump. Since 'volume in jump' is
> > by far the biggest determinant of cost, you save heaps.
>
> Supposedly collapsible fuel tanks cannot be used to fuel jump. It has never
> been explained exactly why.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:04:19 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: All your base are belong to us!
> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:49:05 -0600
> From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
> Subject: All your base are belong to us!
>
> >X-Sender: danawolfe@uncia.com (Unverified)
> >X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)
> >Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:07:23 -0600
> >To: lesbates@minn.net
> >From: danawolfe@polaris.uncia.com
> >Subject: All your base are belong to us!
> >
> > http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~pyang/base/allyourbase.swf
> >
> >
>
> Something my landlord forwarded to me.
>
> An adventure in bad translation.
>
>
> Les
That was great!
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:49:10 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:24:46 +1300
> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
> It's a fault in the system, and I've yet to see a small arm desgin system
that
> doesn't do this. There seems to be this weird idea that heavier bullets go
> further than light ones. While it is true over the mid-range of small arms
it
> breaks down at the extremes, like sub-sonic rounds, where the drag from
the air
> has less impact than the fact that the tracjectory is rather like a
rain-bow. I
> suspect a fair bit of the problem comes from using projectile mass rather
than
> sectional density in the algorithms.
So what kind of fix would you suggest for the range calculations to FFS?
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:43:15 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:42:51 +0100
> From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
> Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
>
> <weg>
> ;-) I really like the name of that thing ;-)
>
> Beest to be carried by "people" called Lister, if you can call them
> that ;-)
> </weg>
>
> Volker
Well except for my lighter skin tone, the fact that my hair doesn't dread up
quite so nattily (yes I know it's extensions) - oh, and the fact that I'm
not
stranded zillions of killometers from earth in the company of a defective
computer, a hollogram of the most annoying person to have ever lived,
and a being decended from my pet cat - I'm Lister to about ten decimal
places.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:17:57 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:01:14 -0800
> From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
>
> on 2/23/01 2:43 AM, DaveShayne at daveshayne@email.msn.com wrote:
<snip>
> > Sure. But I figured the ability to lay 3 rounds near target somewhat
> > less accurately would compensate for a reduction of a single rounds
> > accurate range. I suppose the TNE combat model could be broken.
> > I can say with surety that the design rules tend to give *interesting*
> > results. I like to play to the extremes and that shows up the
limitations
> > of the system more than usual.
>
> This is starting to sound more like a support weapon than a sniper weapon.
More a slight rethinking of the concept. Between a choice of 10% longer
range
but a slower rate of fire and the shorter range but greater number of shots
on
target I chose greater shots on target (in part to offset opponent armor
also
in part to allow multiple targets) If I were doing a support weapon I'd bag
the sound/flash suppression and use a much more normal small arms round.
> A
> way to compensate for low velocity, high arc might be the use of an
advanced
> computing gunsite that factors in range, target movement, humidity, wind,
> etc.
FFS doesn't seem to have rules/statistics for this. I used the optical+laser
sight combination as allowing the best range/aimed fire options. (I could
have bought the "electronic" sight option for Cr2000 but it only gave me
an extra meter of range.)
Perhaps the electronic sight can be shoehorned into this role.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:36:08 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
>Much simpler. Buy a surplus battle rider "tender" (is that the right
>term) and build tanks that fit where the battle riders did.
Very good idea. me personally i like designated Tankers for civilian use.
But for a military use this would be excellent and all that you would ahve
to do is design the pods to use the same docking point as the battle riders.
>In fact, come to think of it, the military ought to *have* such ships.
>A couple of those could establish one *hell* of a fuel depot in a
>hurry. Just the thing for that surprise attack across a rift.
Absolutly.
>And after dropping tanks at the refueling point, they could jump
>insystem after the task force and pick up any riders whose tenders had
>been destroyed or damaged.
Gives your military tanker a double purpose.
Also talking about tankers with military vessles. that brings something else
to my mind.
UNREP
underway replenshment. Would Military shipping in the Imperium find UNREP a
worth while thing?
If a fleet jumps to point B and now they need to jump to point C where the
attack will be. would it be faster for the fleet to practice some sort of
UNREP? or would they just skim unrefined fuel?
I tend to think that some sort of UNREP would be the fastest way to refuel.
anyway just a thought
Bill
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:46:15 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
>I've been reading novel set in the Napoleonic era (Patrick O'Brien's
>Aubrey/Maturin series, and C.S.Forester's Hornblower series) and I
>like the style of speech used therein (which I take to be a fairly
>accurate depiction), where politeness and social graces and functions
>were more important (among the mid-to-upper-class anyway).
>"Killick, send the doctor my compliments and would he be so kind as
>to join me for dinner." In a ship 100-some feet long with 100+ men
>crammed onboard. Orders starting "You are hereby requested and
>required..." and other formalisms. I don't imagine MTU being just like
>that, but I can see where it'll influence it. (Hmm, boarding parties,
>cutting out expeditions, cutlasses and pikes, "Beat to quarters!",
>"Clear for action!"...) But I'm digressing.
I also have read the books from both these Series. Fantastic series of
books. If you like them might i suggest Alexander Kent's Richard Bolitho
Series. very simular to Hornblower in the fact that the main char starts out
as a midshipman. And yes these works have impacted several things i do in my
campains 8P
"beat to Quarters!"
"Bosun Rig your chains and sand the decks!"
"Run out the guns!" (for those ships equiped with retracting turrets 8P)
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:27:10 -0800
From: "J-Man" <jman31415@home.com>
Subject: RE: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)
GenTech is selling Micron brand PC133 256meg for 104.00 dollars, Leonard.
You should know where Gentech is, it's on your side of the river. :)
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Ethan Henry
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 07:40
To: traveller@lists.ient.com; shadow@krypton.rain.com
Subject: OT: Memory (was Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace)
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> > Hey Doug, better up that memory now. We're paying $106 for 256 Meg
DIMMs.
>
> *Where*? We just got quoted $131 for 256 meg, 133 DIMMs. And that's
> *dealer* price, not retail. Then again, it's Kingston.
$123 here for a 256 mes PC133 stick... CANADIAN. Haw!
(I think that's about $88 US dollars).
BTW, on a related note...
Can any of our UK readers explain why they don't buy everything
outside of the UK? Any consumer good, especially electronics,
seems to cost the same in pounds as it does in dollars here.
Which is wierd when you consider that the pound is worth nearly
$2.50 CDN.
If you wanted to buy a high-end piece of gear, like a camcorder,
it seems like it would be cheaper to get a cheap flight to Canada
and buy it here, cost of the flight included. What gives?
ObTrav: The PCs ship is chartered by a semi-wealthy family for a
shopping expedition the next system over... and when they get back,
they've got 12 dtons of cargo and the PCs have already filled the
hold with groat pelts to sell. (well, not that exciting maybe, but
it could LEAD to trouble...)
Ethan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 16:20:14 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
On 23 Feb 2001, at 21:17, DaveShayne wrote:
> > Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:01:14 -0800
> > From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> > Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
> >
> > on 2/23/01 2:43 AM, DaveShayne at daveshayne@email.msn.com wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > > Sure. But I figured the ability to lay 3 rounds near target somewhat
> > > less accurately would compensate for a reduction of a single rounds
> > > accurate range. I suppose the TNE combat model could be broken.
> > > I can say with surety that the design rules tend to give *interesting*
> > > results. I like to play to the extremes and that shows up the
> limitations
> > > of the system more than usual.
> >
> > This is starting to sound more like a support weapon than a sniper weapon.
>
> More a slight rethinking of the concept. Between a choice of 10% longer
> range
> but a slower rate of fire and the shorter range but greater number of shots on
> target I chose greater shots on target (in part to offset opponent armor also in
> part to allow multiple targets) If I were doing a support weapon I'd bag the
> sound/flash suppression and use a much more normal small arms round.
>
> > A
> > way to compensate for low velocity, high arc might be the use of an
> advanced
> > computing gunsite that factors in range, target movement, humidity, wind, etc.
>
> FFS doesn't seem to have rules/statistics for this. I used the optical+laser
> sight combination as allowing the best range/aimed fire options. (I could have
> bought the "electronic" sight option for Cr2000 but it only gave me an extra
> meter of range.)
>
> Perhaps the electronic sight can be shoehorned into this role.
Electronic sights also mean that the hit chance at extreme range is the same as
at long range, and as the extreme range hit chance is only 20% even for a
pretty good shot whereas the LR chance would be 40-45%, it's worth it.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:37:58 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: Allen Steele
> Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:41:54 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
> Subject: Allen Steele
>
> I have just started reading his stuff and I really like it. Anyone else
> like it, have thoughts on its relevance to Traveller, etc?
>
> Kiri
>
I've read "Tranquility Alternative" which I liked and "A king of
infinte space" which I found disappointing.
Mr. Steele writes a hard SF without delving into Cyberpunk and so is
recommended for some Traveller background.
"Tranquility Alternative" is an alternative future of the Space program
starting in 1944, intermixed with a story of espionage about trying to
steal old nuclear warheads from the moon in 1995. There are some
memorable bits and a good description of how our space program could
have gone if funded differently.
"A King of Infinite Space" is a future history, where a eccentric rich
man is reviving corpsicles for an unknown mission. The Tech is not much
higher than Traveller, though there is more BioTech but no Jump Drive,
but not much. I found I disliked the book because despite the characters
making speeches about their ideals and the grand future of humanity,
they all act like hedionist, self centered jerks. And the Author spends
too much time abusing the protagonist for no apparent reason.
I may have fallen into the trap of staring with Mr. Steele's weaker
works, so if anyone can recommend something better please let me know.
I've met Mr. Steele at previous year's ReaderCon's. He is a nice man,
and as expected by a hard SF writer, very sharp about his science and
very good with the history as well, and an excellent con guest.
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:38:14 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Forms of address: a rebuttal
You know this sounds like a great topic to write something up for traveller.
I dont know of anything that covers this. of course i could be wrong.
If this were a good subject then i would start out by reviewing actual
customs in known Kingdoms for refrencing nobility. IE the french Monarchy,
UK back then, ect.. ect..
> Sink me, but who did his cravat?
>
> Customs and Etiquette of the Imperial Court
>
> How about some examples.
>I always liked "Ser" from L.E.Modesitt's books for a gender-neutral
non-official "Sir".
>How are female knights of the Imperium addressed? "Lady"? That's
>boring
>and possibly confused with a female non-title holding spouse/consort of
>any
>noble, isn't it? Or would the wife always have the female version of
>her
>spouse's title? Is it "Baron and Lady", or "Baron and Baroness"?
>bloo
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:43:41 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Hull jump grids
> "I've seen this mod on the net as well, and I rather like the way it
>breaks things down. I think it's actually a very good idea for
>battleriders to be equipted with the hull nets while the monstrous drive
>coils and the powerplant themselves are located in the battle carrier or
>battle tender."
>Mr. McDermott,
> If your riders are equipped with the hull nets and you lose some or
all
>to battle, is you tender then unable to jump?
Would be my guess that the tender has its on jump grid and that when a
Battleride Docks it "hooks" in its jump grid to the tenders. this way your
battle riders would not need a jump drive at all. and iff all the battle
riders were destroyed The tender could still jump out.
But that is my guess
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:57:43 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
Please remember one thing about the crew berthing your discussing.
1) these are all military vessles.
2) the crew requirments tu run a ship of nepolionic era are totally
different than modern warships.
3) compairing Military quarters on military warships to civilan quarters on
civilian ships is diffrent im sure.
The crew of a Super tanker or a freighter will probably have much more room
than a Military vessel. Also it will take a lof fewer people to run civilian
ship than a military one.
hasta
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: Larsen E. Whipsnade [mailto:grote1731@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 7:47 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
"Under the mattress is the coffin locker, which is the width
and length of said mattress, and maybe four inches deep; this, plus a
small locker about the size of two shoeboxes..."
I've been out for close to 14 years now. After reading the description
of the coffin locker above, I realize it's dimensions are closer to reality
than the 8"-10" depth I wrote about in my previous post. One fact I didn't
mention in my long screed was the the narrowness between racks. I'm no
Charles Atlas, but my shoulders brushed my reading light whenever I turned
over too.
We lucked out when compared to the boats though. Our perpetually
undermanned status meant that we never had to "hot rack". Still, as a "sub
vol" who was "involuntarily surfaced" for the "needs of the Navy", I'd have
given my eyeteeth for a fast attack. I was so disappointed at not recieving
orders to a sub that a withdrew my already approved NROTC request.
As an aside, the Navy decommisioned all 9 nuc cruisers through the
'90s, my ship, California, being the last. They simply worth manning
anymore. The Ticonderoga class provided the same firepower with a smaller
crew. Then VP Gore made some reference about this being done for
"enviromental" reasons. A typical lie from the moral lepers of the last
administration.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:13:02 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jones, Dean [mailto:Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 4:00 AM
To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
>
> Thank you Mr. Broussard. I've known of "Sharpe" books from my father
> and in the library but hadn't recalled them til now, I'll add them to
> my list. :)
>
> I like that view of the Imperial Marines as well.
>
> Rob D.
>Also check out the TV adaptions of the Sharpe series starring Sean Bean
(008
>from Tomorrow Never Dies)
>Dean
What is the name of the series? also is it available on tape or DVD? I dont
have a tv at home except to watch tapes or DVDs 8)
Kind of nice really dont miss a lot. I do wished i could see this new
Andromeda Series though. If anyone is taping it please let me know i would
be willing to pay for some tapes to get a copy so i can see it.
Hasta
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:28:09 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: FS Jet Bike (was: Re: Q-ship design)
Ummm...
Can i use that jet bike please 8)
With some of the crazy things people do now i could just see a GJBRA form.
Guys whos sole purpose is to tinker with them, trick them out, Drink beer,
and boast about the fastest Jet Bike.
I am sure they would try to find ways to make them as Ummm.. "safe" as they
can get them 8P (please note Dr. Evil quotes around the word safe 8P)
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: John Groth [mailto:wombat@premier.net]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:37 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: FS Jet Bike (was: Re: Q-ship design)
Ian or Katts wrote:
>
<<snip>>
>
> PS Our competitors would slander us by stating that 'operator safety' did
not appear on the list of FS
> design goals. At FS, your safety comes first, second and third.
>
> PPS There is no truth to a recall notice on the Jet Bike. All instances of
product failure can be
> attributed to operator error (could someone re-post the Jet Bike ? Think
of it as a ME-262 rigged up for
> personal transport).
As per your request:
**begin repost (original posted 18 Mar 2000)**
The Famile Spofulam Jet Bike.
Maximum speed of 1050 km per hour, accelerating to that speed with 87
seconds of thrust. A total thrust-time of 172 seconds is provided.
Fuelled by 100 kg of hypergolic fuel, this baby tests the pilot to the
absolute limit.
Needless to say, this is a high performance, fly-by-2mm-steel-wire
aircraft for the discerning gentleman. Knowledge of computer assisted
flying programs is not a requirement. Prospective owners are advised to
check with local authorities regarding environmental issues and flight
control requirements.
Pilots are strongly advised not to remove the safety interlocks, as
doing so may invalidate the warranty on the vehicle and thus subject the
operator to severe legal risks if the vehicle goes uncontrolled and
damage to life or property occours.
The total unit masses 300 kg, and have a frame designed to support 400
kg. Intending operators of more than 100 kg mass are advised to
contact your local Famile Spofulam representitives about custom models.
*********************************************************************
1.7 kN thrust Hypergolic Liquid Rocket ; 0.013t, KCr 23. Consumes 2.074
m3 fuel per hour
100 kg of hypergolic fuel (hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide = "Ditzie's
Favorite Gloop") will therefore last 172 seconds, and cost Cr 40.
0.4 t Transonic airframe ; 0.04t, KCr
Basic Mechanical Crewstation ; 0.1 t, KCr 0.3
100 kg pilot ; 0.1t, KCr Free
35 kg Parachute ; 0.035t, KCr 1
Max speed 1100 km per hour. 5 maneuver points. 0.17 maintenence points.
KCr 38.3 (TL6 credits, too). Accelerates at 3.325 m/s, or about 12 km
per hour per second. Glide ratio of 10%.
NB If you leave the pedal on the metal, the airframe breaks up once it
goes over 1100 km per hour in a standard atmosphere. We cannot either
confirm or deny rumours of the release of a racing model at this point
in time.
Referees notes : I guess you should put "Jet Bike" into the Vehicle
cluster. This thing is suicide on a stick, in my opinion.
(c) Ian Whitchurch 2000. Not to be reprinted without permission, but
personal use is OK.
**end repost**
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3740
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3741
Date: | 2/23/01 10:42:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Saturday, February 24 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3741
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Democracy Now!
RE: Civility and Politeness.
RE: Interesting spots to visit
Re: Deep Space Jumps
"Refined" fuel
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
RE: What could go wrong?
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
RE: world series
RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
RE: All your base are belong to us!
Re Bayonets and Training Experiences
RE: [Website Review]
RE: [Website Review]
RE: All your base are belong to us!
Allen Steele/Brian Daley
Re: Temp Conversion
Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace
Re: The spirit of the game
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:18:10 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Democracy Now!
>>>And there may be a significant amount of actual history that
>>>would stand in sharp contrast to your bare assertion. For
>>>example, the United States of America until the invention of
>> the telegraph.
>>
>> In fact the US didn't have the kind of travel times that the Imperium
faces.
>Oh? Check the travel times between California and the east coast back
>before the railroad.
Clipper ship was around 120 days around cape horn. little faster or little
slower depending on winds. infact the merchant companies would use their
fastest time from new york to San francsico as an advertising scheme.
Hope this helps hasta
Me
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:33:37 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
Yes that is a pretty accurate description of current Naval berthing
arrangements.
there are a few differences between Sub surface and surface fleet.
No hot racking 8P
Also i did not hear him mention a chiefs quarters or (as i was told goat
locker). On a surface ship they were fairly nice. at least the one time i
saw them 8P
Also shower arrangements. Showering consisited of a small line with a nozzel
with a single button. You turned on the water just as you do at home however
no water would come out till you hit that button. Your bathing procedure was
simply.
Rinse down.
Soap up
Rinse off
Dry off
get dressed 8P
Also for some damn reason the Navy has this habit of giving the Engineers
berthing directly over the shafts. so your berthing gets noisy on high speed
runs. makes it a pain if your trying to catch a few hours shut eye before
your next watch 8P
hasta
- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Davenport [mailto:rgd@ohio.voyager.net]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 12:01 PM
To: Larsen E. Whipsnade; traveller@lists.ient.com
Cc: rgd@bigfoot.com
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
Wow, Bill. Thanks for the great description. I certainly count
myself lucky at not having to have slept in those tight bunks (being
6'1'" and 270#s it'd not have been pleasant sleeping!). And not boring
at all - very interesting!
Rob
On 16 Feb 2001, at 3:20, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> The lack of berthing areas in any Trav design systems has always
> puzzled me too. In the very few deckplans I've drawn, I've simply used
the
> tonnage alloted to those staterooms and used it to create berthing and rec
> areas aboard. Junior officers slept 2 to a stateroom (in bunks) and
seniors
> got a single.
> 42 men in my divsion slept in our berthing area. Our head, one deck
> above, had 2 commodes and 2 urinals (flushed with seawater), 2 showers and
4
> sinks. The racks were stacked 3 high, not too bad when considering that
> they were stacked higher in WW2. We also had a smaller area next to the
> head that held 9 men and was called "9 man" (not very original). Senior
> members of our division slept there.
> Engineering was always undermanned, usually somewhere around the
> mid-80% range, so there were berthing areas on the ship not filled to
> capacity. I don't remember more than 1 or 2 empty racks at any given
time.
> If we'd been at 100%, others in our division would have slept elsewhere.
> Undermanning meant that we normally stood "Six and sixes", 6 hours on
> watch and six hours off as long as the reactors were up. Add that to your
> maintenance and training duties and there wasn't much time for anythig
else.
> I finally got to stand "four and eights" during my last 18 months or so
> after qualifying for senior watch posisitons. The watches were shared
with
> the E7+ personnel. They slept in chief's berthing and only stacked two
> high.
> While underway, berthing was lit with red lights to allow the guys to
> sleep, except for the few hours it was being clean. Other than the 8 hour
> work day, half the division was tryinf to sleep at any given time.
> Laundry was stored in two huge lockers and taken to the ship's
laundry
> twice a week. You might try and imagine what the socks, skivvies,
t-shirts,
> pants, shirt, sheets, and towels for 42 men for 4 days smells like. My
> father, who once enjoyed a foxhole in Korea, described his impression of a
> visit to berthing rather succintly. All he said was "Feet and farts". He
> also said he'd prefer the foxhole.
> On the other side of the forward bulkhead was #2 engine room, both
> propeller shafts ran beneath the compartment, and an emergency diesel was
> just aft. The area was a "hazardous noise area" underway, requiring ear
> plugs. It was finally lined with sound proof materials on the bulkheads
> during my 3rd year there. Our commodes got stalls around them at the same
> time.
> With engineroom "next door", men could wake up and list the the
> equipment change overs and drill sets run in #2 ER during their sleep.
> Your rack was also your locker. The mattress, about 2" thick, sat
atop
> the locker's lid. The locker itself was 8-10" deep and divided into a few
> compartments and a drawer. The rack measured about 6' by 2' and a reading
> lamp hung above it. "Privacy" was provided by a set of curtains. You had
> another locker, similar to the ones in your high school gym, for
additional
> storage.
> My division was fortunate to have our office directly below our
> berthing area. It was tucked between the two shafts and let us watch TV,
> play games, write letters, etc. without bothering those asleep. We were
> lucky to have it.
> One side of our berthing area was formed by the ship's hull. During
> our many "visits" 12 miles off Kamchatka, ice would form on that bulkhead.
> Especially rough seas could toss men out of their racks despite our being
> below the waterline. During our visit to the Persian Gulf, the area was
> ventilated, but not air conditioned. Occasional bursts of sand would come
> through the vents. The heat made it more comfortable to sleep on the
> linoleuum deck rather than your rack.
> I hope this all ddin't bore you. But I figured I might as well
provide
> as many details as possible, so you can pick up some for your campaigns.
> Have fun.
>
>
> Larsen
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
- --
Rob
'Better to understand a little than to misunderstand a lot.'
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:55:52 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Interesting spots to visit
>They have a M-60 cut in half, the two halves about >2 meters apart. Set up
>very nicely with mannequins & plexiglass to show >the interior layout.
if you like that then you would like to go to the George S. patton museum at
Fort Knox kentucky. The have a German King Tiger tank cut away don simular
to that. Among all the other stuff they got there 8P
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:27:39 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
William Lane wrote:
> If a fleet jumps to point B and now they need to jump to point C where the
> attack will be. would it be faster for the fleet to practice some sort of
> UNREP? or would they just skim unrefined fuel?
Almost certainly UNREP. Purpose-designed refined fuel pumps *have* to
be faster than getting within 100D of a large body, carefully braking
into its atmosphere, collecting its fuel, and getting back out to the
jump limit. With tankers you just travel a few thousand km to the
tanker (instead of millions of km to a planet) and you're ready to go.
The only proviso would be that you must have (or can bring) enough
tankers into system B to do the job. Each tanker would skim fuel to
keep itself topped up though.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:36:53 -0600
From: Victor Jason Raymond <vraymond@iastate.edu>
Subject: "Refined" fuel
Dear TMLers,
Back in the mists of time (or about five-six years ago), there was an
explanation offered by a list-member of what was meant by "refined" fuel.
IIRC, there was a sort of liquid hydrogen - or perhaps a process that could
be applied to it - that caused the "fuel" to be particularly pure or
uniform in character. I can't find the post in my somewhat-fragmented
archives, but I just *bet* somebody here would recall what I am talking
about. It was an application of a RL chemistry/physics "Obscure Fact"
(maybe a particular *sort* of hydrogen?).
Does anybody remember this explanation? Much appreciation for any response.
Victor J. Raymond
Department of Sociology, ISU
vraymond@iastate.edu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:15:07 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 16:20:14 +1300
> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
<snip>
> > Perhaps the electronic sight can be shoehorned into this role.
>
> Electronic sights also mean that the hit chance at extreme range is the
same as
> at long range, and as the extreme range hit chance is only 20% even for a
> pretty good shot whereas the LR chance would be 40-45%, it's worth it.
Good point. I'll have to add it to the mark 2.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 11:47:11 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: What could go wrong?
How about On the forward Landing gear one of the "Down and Locked" switches
have an intermittent short in it. so that the light on the instrument panel
blinks off and on erratically. corrective measure would be to replace the
switch.
How about an Air Lock Door Switch that will only open the door when the
switch is toggled "forcefully".
The Septic system on the ship was built with substandard parts. the Holding
tank Nozzles where the hoses connect does not have any small ridges to help
seal. this has caused a small leak if the "fluids" inside the tank. this has
given a certain section of the ship a Distinctive smell. Corrective action
would be to replace holding tank and hoses with proper parts.
A distinctive rattle/squeak in the Air ventilation system. this could be
caused by the bearings on a fan to be going out or a fan blade to be
slightly bent.
When underway the crew finds that there are several spots in the floor where
the gravity is slightly lighter than the rest of the ship. upon inspection
they find that the gravity equipment had been pulled in these areas to make
room for smuggling illegal cargos.
Me
Hasta
- -----Original Message-----
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
[mailto:mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 11:27 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Cc: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk
Subject: Re: What could go wrong?
In-Reply-To: <3a95bfed.6339290@post.demon.co.uk>
Greetings dear hearts.
A really strange smell... which can ultimately be traced to half of a
groat sandwich left somewhere deep within cable trunking by a dockyard
matey.
At least one computer programme whose interface module is incompletely
translated from a language that none of the characters knows. (I once had
a CAD package of German origin, which was fine except when you wanted to
answer 'Yes' to a prompt you had to enter 'J' for 'Ja' instead of 'Y'!)
Mysterious knocking noises - again probably some loose object left behind
by a workman. Probably only manifest themselves when a particular
manoeuvre is performed.
A reactor that is always convinced it's overheating however hard you run
the coolant through it.
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:42:23 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3722
>The fact that Traveller has all of these 'system defense fleets', that are
>apparently locally controlled, is one of the strongest arguments against
the
>existence of a strong central imperium. Imagine what the US would be if
all
>fifty states had their own armed forces, and you have the Imperium.
This existed one time in the United States Pre 1860. There was the Federal
government and each of the states where responsable for producing units for
the army for the federal/confederate governments. This war was a war that
decided that from that time on there would be a strong federal government.
That is why before and during the civil war you see Units like
12th Illinois Volunteer Infantry
32nd Alabama Volunteer Infantry (my Great grand dads unit. )
15th new york Artillary
and why after the war there was a restructuring of the armys. and then you
had things like
7th US calvary
OBTrav: The Players are scouts pulled back into service to provide scouting
and recon for the imperial navy. they get assigned to 5th Regina Defence
Fleet which is being sent to crush the enemy on a moon in a near by system.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 16:36:05 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: world series
Tell me when i love live baseball 8) which is weird my favorite times are
the small teams not the major leagues. Houwever if i had to choose a Major
league team it would be the cubbies 8P
Hasta
- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Goffin [mailto:gmgoffin@yahoo.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2001 4:32 PM
To: traveller mailing aa list
Subject: re: world series
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
>I don't like baseball. Too slllloooooooooooooooooooooow. I like soccer
That's why it's the most popular sport in Japan. It's a long, meditative,
war. It's the only spectator sport involving balls and teams that I can
stand to watch. I'll bet we could get a Trav-in-SF group out for a day
game this summer.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices!
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:26:04 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
>Your essay assignment: Laser weaponry in Traveller. What do you see as
>the advantages/disadvantages to personal lasers, and in what roles would
>they be found?
Now why couldnt i ahve had that essay assignment i could ahve written
something on that 8P
Hasta
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:22:43 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: All your base are belong to us!
What this is from is a message board.
I play online compuetr games. well someone posteda thread about this one
game. it was originally coded in Japan. well when they sent it to the us the
translated the beginning story into english. well they did not do a very
good job of it to put it mildly.
well a couple of people made a few pictures with the phrase "all you base
are belong to us" doctored into them. well next thing you knew there were
several hundered posts with pictures with that phrase worked into the
picture somewhere.
It blows my mind how this is spreading. People at work who know nothing
about the game or how this got started are do this "all you base are belong
to us" thing. sort of funny in a disturbing lemming kind of way 8P
most of the pictures used in that little clip are ones that were pulled from
the thread.
anyway that is what it is and where it comes from
Hasta
Me
- -----Original Message-----
From: Leslie Bates [mailto:lesbates@minn.net]
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 10:49 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: All your base are belong to us!
>X-Sender: danawolfe@uncia.com (Unverified)
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)
>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:07:23 -0600
>To: lesbates@minn.net
>From: danawolfe@polaris.uncia.com
>Subject: All your base are belong to us!
>
> http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~pyang/base/allyourbase.swf
>
>
Something my landlord forwarded to me.
An adventure in bad translation.
Les
=======================================================
Objects on screen may be more hostile than they appear.
=======================================================
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:51:48 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re Bayonets and Training Experiences
Was written:
>>Ah, yes. Reminds me of the bad ol' days at MCRD. The DI is demonstrating
>>the proper thrust/recover for bayonet work.
>>
>>DI: "In the event that your bayonet becomes lodged in the body of
>> your opponent, a simple discharge of your weapon is usually
>> sufficient to dislodge the blade."
>>
>>Recruit: "Ah, Gunnery Sgt. If I'm still capable of discharging my weapon,
>> there ain't gonna *BE* no bayonet combat!!"
>>
Reminds me of an incident from my two year Army ROTC Basic course at Ft.
Knox back in 1973. I kid you not, the object of the day's lesson was to
guess what prepositioned holes various squad and platoon level weapons
should be placed.
Infantry captain standing in front of the holes potificates:
"CADETS THE CORPS OF ENGINEERS DUG THESE HOLES FOR US! DO YOU KNOW WHAT THE
SECOND MISSION OF THE CORPS OF ENGINEERS IS!"
Yours truly, the wiseacre in the back, calls out:
"FILL IN THE HOLES!"
Captain was not amused. He never did figure out who the wiseacre was.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:11:32 -0000
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: [Website Review]
I have to admit I am a little disappointed, here I am about to do some more
work on my website and having asked for some constructive criticism, and
what response do I get.
None
I'm just soo depressed, I may have to get work as a car park attendant.
If anyone wants to have a look its at www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 18:42:31 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Website Review]
On 24 Feb 2001, at 13:11, Antony Farrell wrote:
> I have to admit I am a little disappointed, here I am about to do some more work
> on my website and having asked for some constructive criticism, and what
> response do I get. None
How about some more detail on the worlds of the various polities? And of course
a description of the Daanan Empire.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:26:15 -0800
From: "J-Man" <jman31415@home.com>
Subject: RE: All your base are belong to us!
It reminds me of the old Demo scene..Anyone still remember Skaven and the
rest of Future Crew? IMHO they made the best demos.
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Leslie Bates
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2001 10:49
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: All your base are belong to us!
>X-Sender: danawolfe@uncia.com (Unverified)
>X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32)
>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 12:07:23 -0600
>To: lesbates@minn.net
>From: danawolfe@polaris.uncia.com
>Subject: All your base are belong to us!
>
> http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~pyang/base/allyourbase.swf
>
>
Something my landlord forwarded to me.
An adventure in bad translation.
Les
=======================================================
Objects on screen may be more hostile than they appear.
=======================================================
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:16:39 -0800
From: "A. O'Mary" <omary@my-deja.com>
Subject: Allen Steele/Brian Daley
>
>Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:41:54 -0800 (PST)
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
>Subject: Allen Steele
>
>I have just started reading his stuff and I really like it. Anyone else
>like it, have thoughts on its relevance to Traveller, etc?
>
>Kiri
Hmm, not yet. :-) Are most of his titles still in print?
On the subject of authors, I've enjoyed the Hobart Floyt/Alacrity Fitzhugh books by Brian Daley as a source of 'cinematic' situations and background material for campaigns. Has anyone else read these?
ALO
- ------------------------------------------------------------
- --== Sent via Deja.com ==--
http://www.deja.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:13:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Temp Conversion
In mail you write:
> Anyone here know the formula for converting Temps in Kelvin to Farenhite?
Multiply by 1.8. That converts them to Rankine, which uses Fahrenheit
degrees, but like Kelvin, starts at absolute 0.
Then subtract 459.67. That moves the zero point from absolute zero to
the Fahrenheit 0.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:25:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
In mail you write:
> Leonard Erickson wrote :
>> Well, the box I'm in the process of building is an AMD K6-2-500 (the
>> motherboard can't handle anything faster). 320 meg of RAM, I gig gig
>> Jaz drive, 100 meg Zip drive, etc. I haven't selected an HD yet, and
>> I'm not sure how fast the CD is. It'll have a 100baseTX NIC, though.
>>
>> It'll connect to my 17 inch monitor via the same electronic KVM box the
>> current system is using.
>>
>> That'll give me this, after I get done re-arranging stuff:
>>
>> OS CPU RAM Purpose
>> ----------- ------------ --- ------------------
>> OS/2 Warp 4 AMD K6-2-500 320 "main box"
>
> Gee, someones still using OS/2 ?
> Even IBM aren't doing that anymore ! <grin>
Want to bet? They've *guaranteed* support for 5 more years. Which is
more than Microsoft will do with Windows.
>> Win98 AMD K6-2-300 320 Windows box
>> MacOS 7.6.2 68040 (LC-475) ??? Mac stuff
>> Netware 4.2 Pentium 166 256? file server
>> DR-DOS 7.03 486DX2-66 64 uucp/fidonet
>> "linux" 386DX-??? 16 firewall
>>
>> Note that other than the firewall and the file server, all of these
>> will be using the *same* monitor. And all but the Mac will be using the
>> same keyboard and mouse. :-)
>
> Hmm, I _could_ list all the computers on my home LAN, ignoring all the ones
> in the garage for the moment, but suffice it to say that other than the Bay
> Networks router none are less than P166, and there are seven of them,
> including a PIII 650Mhz Toshiba lap-top. More when my eldest son is home
> from university.
I've only got a 10 user liCense for Netware. And I have some other
systems I may hook up eventually, older, but still quite useful.
> But then I get an new one every year or two, and I never get rid of the old
> ones.
I wasn't able to afford new ones for quite a few years.
> I wonder if I can link my BBC B into the network ?
> Was a pretty hot machine back in the eighties, Rockwell 65C02 clocked up to
> 6Mhz or thereabouts with 256K of RAM and 12 sideways ROM slots.
> Anyone know if you can modify eco-net to work with ethernet ?
> <grin>
I *can* hook the Apple clones and possible some of the TRS80 boxes up.
And least the hardware is available. Gett the software so there's any
*point* in doing so is a different matter.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:37:45 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace
On 02/24/01 at 09:43 AM, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> said:
>Leonard Erickson wrote :
>> That'll give me this, after I get done re-arranging stuff:
>>
>> OS CPU RAM Purpose
>> ----------- ------------ --- ------------------
>> OS/2 Warp 4 AMD K6-2-500 320 "main box"
>Gee, someones still using OS/2 ?
>Even IBM aren't doing that anymore ! <grin>
Why stop using what works? <g> I have two systems running OS/2 Warp 3 Connect. One is a "headless" communciation and print server on my lan (486DX33 with 16 meg) and the other I'm sitting in front of right now (P5-100 with 40 meg). About the only thing I use this system for any more is email, but it's been working great since '94. <g> My newer, more powerful systems are running various versions of Win and Linux. If I don't watch out, I'll soon have more computers than I have rooms. <g>
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:37:45 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: The spirit of the game
Am Saturday, February 24, 2001, las ich folgendes:
> "Only pure-blooded Vilani who grew up in the Vilani traditions can really
> understand what the shugili brings to the dinner table."
Your cousins?
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3741
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Traveller-digest Saturday, February 24 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3742
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Rules question concerning GT
That really big research vessel
RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace
Re: Temp Conversion
Re: "Refined" fuel
Re : Indefinite Life Span
RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace
Soccer (was Re: world series)
Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
Re : Indefinite Life Span
RE: All your base are belong to us!
Re: Rules question concerning GT
D6 traveller
Re: world series
Re: world series
Broadsword Inquiry
Re: world series
Re: world series
Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
Re: "Refined" fuel
Adventure 8
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:40:04 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Rules question concerning GT
Am Saturday, February 24, 2001, las ich folgendes:
> In-Reply-To: <113344397.20010223193111@greimann.de>
> Greetings dear hearts.
> It sounds quite reasonable to me - any damage that is going to get through
> a suit of really solid armour isn't going to do much good to the human
> being (or member of other species, as appropriate)
Still, i don´t really like killing my party, but you can only "adjust"
the die rolls ever so often...
I think I´ll try this blowthrough rule David suggested...
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:00:15 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: That really big research vessel
Hi, I was looking through my archives of stuff looted from the TML for that
really big research vessel someone did, and I seem to have lost it. I would be
really grateful if the perpertrator could send me a copy. It's for a good cause
- - a GURPS list guy said he though that Traveller didn't do munchkins. :)
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:00:15 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace
On 24 Feb 2001, at 0:37, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:
> On 02/24/01 at 09:43 AM, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> said:
>
> >Leonard Erickson wrote :
>
> >> That'll give me this, after I get done re-arranging stuff:
> >>
> >> OS CPU RAM Purpose
> >> ----------- ------------ --- ------------------
> >> OS/2 Warp 4 AMD K6-2-500 320 "main box"
>
> >Gee, someones still using OS/2 ?
> >Even IBM aren't doing that anymore ! <grin>
>
> Why stop using what works? <g> I have two systems running OS/2 Warp 3 Connect.
> One is a "headless" communciation and print server on my lan (486DX33 with 16
> meg) and the other I'm sitting in front of right now (P5-100 with 40 meg).
> About the only thing I use this system for any more is email, but it's been
> working great since '94. <g> My newer, more powerful systems are running various
> versions of Win and Linux. If I don't watch out, I'll soon have more computers
> than I have rooms. <g>
I already do, if you count the pile of 486s I've got cluttering up the place.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 01:52:33 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: Temp Conversion
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 16:52:51 -0500 (EST), "Thomas Vickers"
<tvickers@conroe.isd.tenet.edu> wrote:
>Anyone here know the formula for converting Temps in Kelvin to Farenhite?
It's Fahrenheit, and to convert you subtract 273.15 then convert Celsius to
Fahrenheit. IIRC, C-to-F is multiply by 1.8 and then add 32.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:57:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: "Refined" fuel
In mail you write:
> Dear TMLers,
>
> Back in the mists of time (or about five-six years ago), there was an
> explanation offered by a list-member of what was meant by "refined" fuel.
>
> IIRC, there was a sort of liquid hydrogen - or perhaps a process that could
> be applied to it - that caused the "fuel" to be particularly pure or
> uniform in character. I can't find the post in my somewhat-fragmented
> archives, but I just *bet* somebody here would recall what I am talking
> about. It was an application of a RL chemistry/physics "Obscure Fact"
> (maybe a particular *sort* of hydrogen?).
>
> Does anybody remember this explanation? Much appreciation for any response.
Well, to start with, there's the isotpoic composition of the fuel.
"Normal" hydrogen (sometimes referred to as "protium") has a single
proton as the nucleus. Deuterium has a proton and a neutron. It fuses
*much* more easily. And tritium has a proton and two neutrons, it fuses
still easier yet. But it's rare and unstable.
Hydorgen molecules consist of two hydrogen atoms. There are two forms
the molecules can have. One has the spin axes of the atoms pointing in
the same direction the other has them pointing in opposite directions.
One of these forms (I forget which) has more energy than the other.
Which means that every so often, thru random chance, it'll change into
the lower energy form and give of a little heat in the process. This is
actually enough to *boil* liquid hydrogen.
Unless you use special catalysts, it takes a long time and a lot of
cooling to get LH2 to all be the low energy form of the molecule.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 21:10:26 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Indefinite Life Span
Terry Carlino wrote :-
> I have to wonder if life expectancy in the U.S. was broken down by
> socio-economic groups whether the life expectancy for certain groups in
the U.S.
> wouldn't be reflective of rates in other countries. More plainly, separate
out
> the lower income socio-economic groups who have little access to health
care.
The average life expectancy for men and women in the U.S. is very close to
the OECD average.
Death rates are roughly 1.7X higher in the lowest socio-economic groups ;
this is fairly consistent across First World countries.
Note that this does not consider indigenous groups (regrettably today's
indigenous Australians have life expectancies comparable to wealthy
Europeans ca. 1900).
> Would the average life expectancy rise dramatically?
No. There's a 'wall' on the right hand side of the graph that outweighs the
'drag' caused by other people dying 'early'.
It would now take a significant innovation (e.g. elimination of
cardiovascular disease or all malignancies) to cause a 'dramatic' rise in
life expectancy.
The ~20 year increase in life expectancy seen over the period 1900-1990 in
the developed world is largely due to improvements in diet and hygiene,
rather than specific medical interventions.
Deaths from cardiovascular and infectious diseases and accidents have
fallen, while death rates from malignancies have risen. Suicide rates,
especially amongst the young, have increased, but they account for only 5-6%
of all deaths.
Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
> Probably not that much, actually. There was a study (I forget who did
> iot, sorry) that showed that the life expectancy in a country was
> fairly closely correlated with the differentail in wealth between
> poor and wealthy, and that this affected even the wealthy. It didn't,
> as far as I can remember look at why.
These sort of studies are done at regular intervals by agencies like the UN
Development Program. Generally, poorer countries have greater inequalities
in income (the usual measure is comparing the top and bottom 20% of the
population). Life expectancy is lower in these countries for all the usual
reasons.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:50:21 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: [Website Review] Jumpspace
Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >> OS/2 Warp 4 AMD K6-2-500 320 "main box"
> >
> > Gee, someones still using OS/2 ?
> > Even IBM aren't doing that anymore ! <grin>
>
> Want to bet? They've *guaranteed* support for 5 more years. Which is
> more than Microsoft will do with Windows.
They're _supporting_ it, they're not _using_ it.
Well, I suppose someone somewhere in IBM is still using it, but it's no
longer the standard COE rollout, not since about 1997-98.
And I thought they said only another five years two or three years ago ?
<snip>
> > But then I get an new one every year or two,
> > and I never get rid of the old ones.
>
> I wasn't able to afford new ones for quite a few years.
Neither was I, but I never let not being able to afford something stop me.
<grin>
I bought my first new PC wth a student loan when I was on a student
allowance, I considered it an investement in my future, and it certainly
paid off !
> > I wonder if I can link my BBC B into the network ?
> > Was a pretty hot machine back in the eighties,
> > Rockwell 65C02 clocked up to 6Mhz or thereabouts
> > with 256K of RAM and 12 sideways ROM slots.
> > Anyone know if you can modify eco-net to work
> > with ethernet ?<grin>
>
> I *can* hook the Apple clones and possible some of the TRS80 boxes up.
> And least the hardware is available. Gett the software so there's any
> *point* in doing so is a different matter.
Well, the point of hooking the BBC up would be to download all the games and
software I have for it to my PC so I can use it on a BBC emulator, and
perhaps recoveer a few really old files, like my Traveller character
generator written in BBC Basic, ported by hand from the listing of the
original TRS80 Basic...
Then again, I dread to think how bad the code I wrote back then was.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 05:34:51 -0500
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Soccer (was Re: world series)
>Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:44:07 +1000
>From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
>Subject: Re: world series
>
>Out of idle curiousity: is soccer more popular in areas with large Latino
>populations?
Dragging this back to Traveller:
I have seen soccer played in the poorest countries in Africa and the
Western Hemisphere (Somalia and Haiti, respectively). The big advantage of
soccer over just about every other ball sport is that it requires only two
pieces of equipment: a more-or-less round ball, and a large flat field.
(Rugby requires relatively sophisticated medical treatment facilities, and
so doesn't qualify.) I infer that this simplicity is resposible for
soccer's worldwide popularity. If so, it is also a good argument for
soccer's continued popularity into the far future.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:10:14 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
On 24 Feb 2001, at 5:34, Christopher Thrash wrote:
> Dragging this back to Traveller:
>
> I have seen soccer played in the poorest countries in Africa and the
> Western Hemisphere (Somalia and Haiti, respectively). The big advantage of
> soccer over just about every other ball sport is that it requires only two
> pieces of equipment: a more-or-less round ball, and a large flat field.
> (Rugby requires relatively sophisticated medical treatment facilities, and
> so doesn't qualify.)
Ahem. At the high school I went to the after-school soccer teams had about as
many injuries as the rigby teams. The difference was that the rugby players got
their wrists and shoulders bent, while the soccer players had their knees and
ankles destroyed. Both suffered battered ears and bruised eyes.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:10:14 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re : Indefinite Life Span
On 24 Feb 2001, at 21:10, Robert O'Connor wrote:
I wrote :-
> > Probably not that much, actually. There was a study (I forget who did
> > iot, sorry) that showed that the life expectancy in a country was
> > fairly closely correlated with the differentail in wealth between
> > poor and wealthy, and that this affected even the wealthy. It didn't,
> > as far as I can remember look at why.
> These sort of studies are done at regular intervals by agencies like the UN
> Development Program. Generally, poorer countries have greater inequalities in
> income (the usual measure is comparing the top and bottom 20% of the
> population). Life expectancy is lower in these countries for all the usual
> reasons.
I'm fairly sure I saw a study of developed nations that showed that for a given
average income the country with the greatest wealth difference had the lowest
life expectancy, even in the wealthy component of its population. However it
occurs to me that if they used countries with very different violent crime
rates this could make the difference.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 07:31:37 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: RE: All your base are belong to us!
In AD 2101, Leslie Bates was writing:
>Something my landlord forwarded to me.
>
>An adventure in bad translation.
I don't think I've laughed that hard in months. Although this was certainly
off-topic, it had me crying with laughter... and that's gotta be worth
something.
Yours in 'Great Justice',
Chris Seamans
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:25:28 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Rules question concerning GT
Volker wrote:
> Am Saturday, February 24, 2001, las ich folgendes:
>
> > In-Reply-To: <113344397.20010223193111@greimann.de>
> > Greetings dear hearts.
>
> > It sounds quite reasonable to me - any damage that is going to get through
> > a suit of really solid armour isn't going to do much good to the human
> > being (or member of other species, as appropriate)
>
> Still, i don´t really like killing my party, but you can only "adjust"
> the die rolls ever so often...
>
> I think I´ll try this blowthrough rule David suggested...
Look, weapons are designed to kill people (generally speaking). If they don't
do it well then they wont make it to the production stage. If your guys are
going to wander around in BD and get shot at with FGPM/PGMP (which were designed
at a TL where they are required to penetrate BD) then they are going to die.
End of story.
No more fudging.
No lucky breaks.
You will always (and i generalize badly here - please forgive me) find that the
people who play CoC make some of the best players in games with lethal combat as
they know to well that combat is such a minor tool of the adventurer and one
which should very rarely (unless the scenario requires it) be used unless the
party want to risk some serious dirt-nap time.
:-)
Si
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:31:11 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: D6 traveller
Is there anyone out there who plays (or has access to info on) d6 traveller. I
am seriously considering adopting this game system as i think it has just the
playabilitiy that i want my Traveller universe games to possess.
Any advice, links, software etc gladly accepted.
:-)
Si
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:53:01 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: world series
> On Fri, 23 Feb 2001, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
> > Don't expect North America to take football seriously until you let a
> > team WIN the world championship game.
I presume that by using the term 'world' you are referring to the american policy
of having a world series that excludes the rest of the world?
;-)
Si
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:07:00 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: world series
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
"I presume that by using the term 'world' you are referring to the
american policy of having a world series that excludes the rest of the
world?"
Mr. Brodie,
Actually, I consider the World Cup to be the only true world
championship. The Series was tagged with the "world" title as a bit of
marketing hyperbole when it is invented early in the last century. One
league thought the name was so silly that they refused to play in it for
several years.
Although many football fans from many different parts of the globe have
taken umbrage with my post about the world's most popular game, only one has
addressed the major point of that post; that FIFA's mechanism for resolving
tie games is completely wrongheaded and wouldn't be fit for a kindergarden
game, let alone one played by adults.
The idea that the only true world championship can, and is, decided not
by the actual game play of the teams, but through a kicking contest is
laughable. After working 3(?) or 4(?) years to get to that point and
playing your heart out for 90 minutes, the fact that it is decided by
something so infantile must be maddening to both players and fans.
I also stand by my assertion that, if I had been exposed to the game as
a child, I would be as big a fan of it as anyone else.
OBTrav: What sort of cultural "faux pas" between regions in the Imperium
would label the offender a "philistine" and "cretin", but not (hopefully)
put him any physical danger? Using the wrong fork for the greebel course?
White codpiece after Labor Day? Toe nail clippings not burnt immediately to
prevent illegal cloning?
Larsen
P.S. One poster did point out the overtime contests in American football
usually end with the winner of the coin toss winning. This is true to an
extent, that team usually has to first chance to kick a field goal.
However, both teams actually play the game in overtime, with the team
on offense performing the same tasks they did during the previous 60 minutes
to get the ball within the field goal range of their kicker. The ball
simply isn't teed up at the 25 yard line automatically and the team with the
best out of ten shots wins. They play the game to get it there. Play The
Game.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 06:09:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Broadsword Inquiry
I am currently upgrading the old Adventure 8: Broadsword for use with
the TNE rules.
My question: Are there any extant maps of Garda-Vilis? I'd hate to
re-invent the wheel if I don't need to.
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" — Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1
**********************************************************************************************
__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:58:09 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: world series
On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:25:40 -0000 grote1731@hotmail.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
wrote:
> The current attempt at fielding a pro league is slowly dying and
>hispanic faces are few among the fans. Perhaps the level of play isn't good
>enough to draw people who've seen the game played the real way.
Which is odd, considering the (by now) thousands of kids who have played
soccer in the AYSO (American Youth Soccer Organization) and school teams, and
given the strong showings of both the American mens and especially women's
national teams (World Cup Champ is kinda hard to beat! So was China for that
matter, but they did it ;-)
So insteade we get drivel like the XFL...the dregs of passed-over NFL players
playing some weird mutant version of WWF-Football (_US_ Style with the pointy
ball, quarterbacks and cheerleaders).
Go figure...
Bruce Johnson
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:02:07 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: world series
On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:07:00 -0000 grote1731@hotmail.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
wrote:
> However, both teams actually play the game in overtime, with the team
>on offense performing the same tasks they did during the previous 60 minutes
>to get the ball within the field goal range of their kicker. The ball
>simply isn't teed up at the 25 yard line automatically and the team with the
>best out of ten shots wins. They play the game to get it there. Play The
>Game.
And of course, gragging it back Off-Topic; this is exactly how they break ties
in baseball...by playing until there isn't one.
Bruce Johnson
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:47:52 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
Christopher Thrash wrote:
> >Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 08:44:07 +1000
> >From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
> >Subject: Re: world series
> >
> >Out of idle curiousity: is soccer more popular in areas with large Latino
> >populations?
>
> Dragging this back to Traveller:
>
> I have seen soccer played in the poorest countries in Africa and the
> Western Hemisphere (Somalia and Haiti, respectively). The big advantage of
> soccer over just about every other ball sport is that it requires only two
> pieces of equipment: a more-or-less round ball, and a large flat field.
> (Rugby requires relatively sophisticated medical treatment facilities, and
> so doesn't qualify.)
Someone isn't watching enough Premier League soccer.
Rugby is a bit dangerous to play before your teens because
it is designed as a contact sport, the danger being the risk
of an injury that will leave long-term effects (however, it isn't
neary as dangerous at 5 year olds playing american football).
Soccer isn't designed that way, though there is often a lot of
bloody and dangerous contact.
Where rugby breaks with soccer is that it's much more complicated.
Soccer is easy to explain: run, kick the ball in the goal, don't use
your hands. Can't do that with rugby, way to many if-thens.
> I infer that this simplicity is resposible for
> soccer's worldwide popularity. If so, it is also a good argument for
> soccer's continued popularity into the far future.
I agree. I think the same is true of golf (hit the ball into a hole).
But can you imagine what interstellar baseball would be like,
with each world having different gravities and atmospheres?
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 12:04:18 -0600
From: Victor Jason Raymond <vraymond@iastate.edu>
Subject: Re: "Refined" fuel
<nods> I had thought about that, but it seemed like there was something
more specific than that. Then again, I might be mis-remembering. Though
there was SOMEthing....
(I'll go back and dig)
Victor
At 11:57 PM 2/23/01 -0800, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
> > Dear TMLers,
> >
> > Back in the mists of time (or about five-six years ago), there was an
> > explanation offered by a list-member of what was meant by "refined" fuel.
> >
> > IIRC, there was a sort of liquid hydrogen - or perhaps a process that
> could
> > be applied to it - that caused the "fuel" to be particularly pure or
> > uniform in character. I can't find the post in my somewhat-fragmented
> > archives, but I just *bet* somebody here would recall what I am talking
> > about. It was an application of a RL chemistry/physics "Obscure Fact"
> > (maybe a particular *sort* of hydrogen?).
> >
> > Does anybody remember this explanation? Much appreciation for any
> response.
>
>Well, to start with, there's the isotpoic composition of the fuel.
>"Normal" hydrogen (sometimes referred to as "protium") has a single
>proton as the nucleus. Deuterium has a proton and a neutron. It fuses
>*much* more easily. And tritium has a proton and two neutrons, it fuses
>still easier yet. But it's rare and unstable.
>
>Hydorgen molecules consist of two hydrogen atoms. There are two forms
>the molecules can have. One has the spin axes of the atoms pointing in
>the same direction the other has them pointing in opposite directions.
>
>One of these forms (I forget which) has more energy than the other.
>Which means that every so often, thru random chance, it'll change into
>the lower energy form and give of a little heat in the process. This is
>actually enough to *boil* liquid hydrogen.
>
>Unless you use special catalysts, it takes a long time and a lot of
>cooling to get LH2 to all be the low energy form of the molecule.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
Victor J. Raymond
Department of Sociology, ISU
vraymond@iastate.edu
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:24:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Adventure 8
I have dug out my copy of Adventure 8 to work up the basis for a
TNE-based military campaign set in the Spinward Marches in CT times.
When I first played it as a teenager, I thought this was the coolest
adventure going. Now that I'm 35, I can see this adventure had a lot
of holes in it that need fixing.
Thoughts on Adventure 8: Broadsword
1) Thirty-one troops, no matter how well armed and armored, aren't
going to make a drop of difference in a planet-wide revolution,
especially one with high-tech off-world support.
2) The wheeled ATV is as useless as a military vehicle as mammary
glands on a porcine of the male gender.
3) Scenario II: The Ambush, is rather forced. The first time we
gamed this (sometime in the 80s), the players simply loaded their
prisoners and themselves in one of the cutters and flew back to base.
I am reworking the adventure for use with the TNE rules and I've come
up with a few fixes.
1) The mercenary unit needs to be bumped up to at least a battalion in
size, but would be better using a regiment. You'd never catch Hammer's
Slammers or Falkenberg's Legion trying to put down a rebellion with a
single platoon. Keep the mercenary cruiser as a unit asset, with most
of the troops and their equipment coming in via commercial shipping.
The cruiser will initially be intended as an ortillery platform, but
the arrival of the Zhodani strike cruiser will of course put paid to
that plan.
2) Ditch the ATVs. They are completely useless. Give the unit at
least a company of armor and a company or two of G-carriers. They'll
still be susceptible to the Gram mechanized battalion and the TFL's
anti-armor teams, but at least they'll have a fighting chance.
3) Why the Zhodani strike cruiser simply doesn't drop a missile on the
Broadsword as it sits on the ground at the starport is beyond me. The
best plan I see for the Broadsword is to high-tail it off planet or
park in some convenient body of water to hide it from the strike
cruiser.
4) There should be enough gravitic traffic on planet to mask the
movements of the ship's cutters. Use them for fire support and troop
transport.
5) Odds are, the TFL are not sitting on their hands while the
mercenaries deploy. Have them stage terrorist (i.e., car bomb) attacks
against the mercenaries early on. As a goodly portion of the planet is
in cahoots with the TFL, odds are they'll know the mercs are coming and
will make plans to deal with them.
6) Because a lot of the locals are TFL sympathizers, the locations of
the deep meson gun sensor sites should be known to the TFL. Have the
mercs rush around to aid the beleaguered defenders of the sensor sites
from TFL raids. This will keep quite a bit of the unit's assets tied
down as a reaction force and incapable of mounting an offensive against
the guerrillas. Say bye-bye to the bonus. Of course, using their
contacts with the Zhodani, the TFL might simply get the cruiser to drop
a few missiles on each site.
7) Make more use of the Sword Worlders. Have the local TFL guerrilla
leader call in for armored support should the mercs be getting the
upper hand in an action.
8) Make more use of the Zhodani commandos and Marines. This is
especially good after the Zhodani declare war. The adventure starts on
096-1107 and the Zhodani declare war on 187-1107 - 91 days later. At
that time, reinforce the Zhodani cruiser with a couple of destroyer
escorts.
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3742
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3743
Date: | 2/24/01 5:37:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Saturday, February 24 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3743
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: world series
Adventure *7* Broadsword
Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
Re: D6 traveller
Re: D6 traveller
Re: D6 traveller
RE: Adventure 8
Re: Darrian names?
RE: Adventure 8
RE: Adventure 8
Re: the religion flamewar
Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
RE: What could go wrong?
RE: Adventure 8
RE: "Refined" fuel
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:46:27
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: world series
At 08:44 AM 2/24/2001 +1000, you wrote:
>Out of idle curiousity: is soccer more popular in areas with large Latino
>populations?
Not really. The San Jose Earthquakes play in a heavily Latino area, and
have a re hard time filling seats.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:42:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Adventure *7* Broadsword
AAArrrrgh! Chalk it up to fat fingers and too little coffee.
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" — Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1
**********************************************************************************************
__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:47:15
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
At 11:47 AM 2/24/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>But can you imagine what interstellar baseball would be like,
>with each world having different gravities and atmospheres?
Considering the oddities you find in current major league parks.. Enron
Filed has a small hill with a flag pole on it in the field of play! One of
Candlestick's oddities was a *huge* playable foul area.. balls that would
have been in the seats in any other park were easy outs at the 'Stick.
Fenway has the Green Monster. Pac Bell has a right field wall that causes
some insane bounces.
And of course, there's Coors Field in Denver.. the park where pitchers can
hit homeruns.
I'd think that there would be a standard "minimum fence" rule for ball
parks. Adjust for local gravity and atmospheric pressure, and the fences
could be 800 feet away! Records would also be adjusted for local conditions.
*grin* I'm just picturing a pop-up on a world with .4g
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:33:01 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: D6 traveller
http://members.nbci.com/lamorak/d6travel.htm
On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:31:11 +0000 Simon Brodie
<mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk> writes:
> Is there anyone out there who plays (or has access to info on) d6
> traveller. I
> am seriously considering adopting this game system as i think it has
> just the
> playabilitiy that i want my Traveller universe games to possess.
>
> Any advice, links, software etc gladly accepted.
>
> :-)
>
> Si
>
>
>
>
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 15:28:16 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: D6 traveller
On 02/24/01 at 02:33 PM, knightsky@juno.com said:
>http://members.nbci.com/lamorak/d6travel.htm
Somebody beat me to it. <g> Good information on this site!
I think I like my way of combining Stat+Skill better than the
traditional one, but this is probably easier. The weapons should
have Close, Short, Medium and Long ranges listed. The
wounding/damage system should be explained better, I've never really
been comfortable with the "5 wound system." Hum, I don't see why
you couldn't continue to use the CT "reduce STR/END/DEX" system, but
if you did you'd have to reduce the weapon damages down to CT
levels.
Actually, that would work well, I think...for example. if a small
calibre pistol was rated 2d+2 and you rolled 5 and 4. Then on a
first hit you'd apply all 11 points to one of STR/END/DEX, or on
second+ hits you'd apply 5 to one, 4 to another, and 2 to a third.
This would give you the ability to more finely rate weapons, for
example...
Effective Ranges
Damage Close Short Medium Long
.22 pistol 2d+1 5 10 20 40
.32 pistol 2d+2 4 8 12 16
.44 revolver 3d 10 20 40 80
10mm Body pistol 3d 3 6 12 24
9mm autopistol 3d+1 10 30 90 270
.45 autopistol 3d+2 8 24 72 206
.44 magnum 4d 6 18 54 162
(I'm guessing at ranges, but something like this allows trade offs
between higher stopping power and longer ranges...and I like that)
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 15:05:01 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: D6 traveller
On 02/24/01 at 01:31 PM, Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk> said:
>Is there anyone out there who plays (or has access to info on) d6
>traveller. I am seriously considering adopting this game system as
>i think it has just the playabilitiy that i want my Traveller
>universe games to possess.
I'm sure others have more knowledge/experience with d6 than I, but
I'll take a shot at it...
Characters
I'd create the characters using CT/MT/T4 or TNE, then convert their
Characteristics and Skills to a d6 format.
d6 Stat = Characteristic/3, where the quotent is the number of dice
and the remainder is the number of pips.
d6 Skill = Traveller Skill level is the number of dice
d6 Target Number = an appropriate Stat + an appropriate Skill
Example (I just rolled:
Sam Sample UPP: 779985-8 Skills: Brawling-1, Pistol-1,
Engineering-2, Mechanic-1 Carousing-2, Grav Vehicle-1,
Conversion
STR 7 = 2d+1 Brawling 1d
END 7 = 2d+1 Pistol 1d
DEX 9 = 3d Engineering 2d
INT 9 = 3d Mechanic 1d
EDU 8 = 2d+2 Carousing 2d
SOC 5 = 1d+2 Grav Vehicle 1d
CHA 8 = 2d+2
Task Levels
Routine 1 to 5
Average 6 to 10
Difficult 11 to 15
Formidable 16 to 20
Staggering 21 to 25
Hopeless 26 to 30
Impossible 31 to 35
Example Tasks
Repair Jump Drive
Engineering+EDU > Difficult (12)
2d + 2d+2 = 4d+2
Shoot Pirate with Pistol at Medium range
Pistol+DEX+Attack DM's > 10+Defense DM's
Some Attack DM's
Range: Close +1d; Short +0; Medium -1d; Long -2d
Called Shot -2d
Some Defense DM's
Cover: Partial -1d; Full -2d; Darkness -2d
1d + 3d -1d = 3d
That should get you started. <g>
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:39:09 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Adventure 8
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Gerry Harris
> Sent: Sunday, 25 February 2001 07:24
> To: TML
> Subject: Adventure 8
>
>
> I have dug out my copy of Adventure 8 to work up the basis for a
> TNE-based military campaign set in the Spinward Marches in CT times.
> When I first played it as a teenager, I thought this was the coolest
> adventure going. Now that I'm 35, I can see this adventure had a lot
> of holes in it that need fixing.
>
> Thoughts on Adventure 8: Broadsword
>
> 1) Thirty-one troops, no matter how well armed and armored, aren't
> going to make a drop of difference in a planet-wide revolution,
> especially one with high-tech off-world support.
>
> 2) The wheeled ATV is as useless as a military vehicle as mammary
> glands on a porcine of the male gender.
I suggest you read up on what the LRDG did in the Western desert before
dismissing wheeled ATVs.
Like any vehicle,if used in the wrong way , against the wrong weapons, and
in the wrong place, they may be useless. But used corectly, in the right
place and way, _any_ form of transport can be militarily effective. Even
donkeys.
> 3) Scenario II: The Ambush, is rather forced. The first time we
> gamed this (sometime in the 80s), the players simply loaded their
> prisoners and themselves in one of the cutters and flew back to base.
Er, I thought there was an explicit reason why they couldn;t do this in the
scenario ?
I'd have to dig it ourt and check.
> I am reworking the adventure for use with the TNE rules and I've come
> up with a few fixes.
>
> 1) The mercenary unit needs to be bumped up to at least a battalion in
> size, but would be better using a regiment. You'd never catch Hammer's
> Slammers or Falkenberg's Legion trying to put down a rebellion with a
> single platoon. Keep the mercenary cruiser as a unit asset, with most
> of the troops and their equipment coming in via commercial shipping.
> The cruiser will initially be intended as an ortillery platform, but
> the arrival of the Zhodani strike cruiser will of course put paid to
> that plan.
>
> 2) Ditch the ATVs. They are completely useless. Give the unit at
> least a company of armor and a company or two of G-carriers. They'll
> still be susceptible to the Gram mechanized battalion and the TFL's
> anti-armor teams, but at least they'll have a fighting chance.
Ok, I think the problem with all this is that I got the impression the
mercenaries aren't supposed to win.
I got from this mission is that the Mercenaries were supposed to take to the
hills and out of pure survival act as an Imperial guerilla group harassing
the Zhodani and Sword Worlds presence on the planet, probably not getting
out until after the war, or until they get a chance to get the hell out of
there.
In this environment the ATV's are useful for mobility.
> 3) Why the Zhodani strike cruiser simply doesn't drop a missile on the
> Broadsword as it sits on the ground at the starport is beyond me. The
> best plan I see for the Broadsword is to high-tail it off planet or
> park in some convenient body of water to hide it from the strike
> cruiser.
<snip>
> 6) Because a lot of the locals are TFL sympathizers, the locations of
> the deep meson gun sensor sites should be known to the TFL. Have the
> mercs rush around to aid the beleaguered defenders of the sensor sites
> from TFL raids. This will keep quite a bit of the unit's assets tied
> down as a reaction force and incapable of mounting an offensive against
> the guerrillas. Say bye-bye to the bonus. Of course, using their
> contacts with the Zhodani, the TFL might simply get the cruiser to drop
> a few missiles on each site.
Problem with this is that unless the deep mesons are inoperative the strike
cruiser is dead meat if it tries this. The point of deep mesons is that it
requies a sustained, long term, bombardment for orbital weaponry to take
them out, unless the attackers have knowledge of their exact _depth_ as well
as position and can use mesons against them. Any single strike cruiser would
have to be _extremely_ lucky to survive sitting in range of several deep
meson sites for the length of time required to reduce their cover.
And while most locals are TFL sympathizers, it's still possible to hide a
deep meson on a planet. Consider if you were building one on earth, there
are several parts of the planet where you could easily build one withut any
locals finding out, because there are no locals. or the few that are there
could be eliminated or imprisoned with little trouble.
Not to mention that if the mesons _are_ in a populated area the locals would
be bit upset at the damage done to their planet in taking them out, so if
the Zhodani want to retain local supoprt, they'd have to use troops to storm
the site or teleporting commandos (which would require either fanatic
comandos willing to risk appearing in rock, or something in the site to act
as a psionic location device.....
This, BTW, is my justification for the Zhodani strike Cruiser not attacking
the Broadsword on planet, it doesn't know for sure where the deep mesons
are, and the captain is too worried about losing his ship to them to risk it
just to take out a Broadsword. Being there is enough to deny the enemy the
use of their ortillery. Why risk more ?
And to begin with they aren't at war, and it would tehnically be an act of
war to attack the mercenaries.
Other than that, I like the ideas.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 15:54:56 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: Darrian names?
On 02/18/01 at 11:04 PM, Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net> said:
>I have a spreadsheet that generates names for 13 different Trav
>languages (Ael Yael, Aslan, Darrian, Dynchia, Gvegh, Happirhvani,
>Hkar, K'kree, Norsk, Oynprith, Vilani, Vuakedh and Zhodani). I
>can send it to you if you are interested.
>Jimmy Simpson
> nimrodd@mail.com
That's something that should be hosted on a webpage somewhere. If one of the big Traveller sites, like Downport, isn't interested, Jimmy, send it to me, I'll host it on my little old webpage.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:50:16 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Adventure 8
On 25 Feb 2001, at 10:39, Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> > 2) The wheeled ATV is as useless as a military vehicle as mammary
> > glands on a porcine of the male gender.
>
> I suggest you read up on what the LRDG did in the Western desert before
> dismissing wheeled ATVs.
>
> Like any vehicle,if used in the wrong way , against the wrong weapons, and
> in the wrong place, they may be useless. But used corectly, in the right
> place and way, _any_ form of transport can be militarily effective. Even
> donkeys.
OTOH we're talking about a TL10 world, so while they'd have some uses a wheeled
ATV would be very low down on my shopping list.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:23:41 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Adventure 8
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"2) The wheeled ATV is as useless as a military vehicle as mammary
glands on a porcine of the male gender."
"I suggest you read up on what the LRDG did in the Western desert
before dismissing wheeled ATVs."
"OTOH we're talking about a TL10 world, so while they'd have some uses
a wheeled ATV would be very low down on my shopping list."
Gentlemen,
Gee, it sure has been a long time since I played "Broadsword", and then
only as a PC a not as a GM.
(scratches grey haired pate)
I sort of thought the point of it was to survive the war's first stages
and wait for the IN to arrive. We ran a few of the scenarios (I have vague
memories of them) but the biggest part of it was helping the loyalist
Garda-Vilist troops and the Vilis garrison hold off against the TFL, Gram
battalion, and Zho ship. Again, that might of been our GMs "tweak" of the
material.
The "mexican" standoff between the Zho strike cruiser and deep meson
sites/merc ship mentioned earlier keeps either side from using any space
assets in any real way. The TFL wears down the garrison while the Gram
armor is used for the "big push". Our GM used us like a "fire brigade",
popping here and there to stiffen local defenses, disrupt staging areas,
leading small counter attacks, and the like. The mercs are too small to do
any of the real work, but they can be used as a "fulcrum" for the local
loyalist "lever".
Think of something along the lines of the Peking Legations Seige during
the Boxer Rebellion. The mercs help the locals hold the fort unitl the
"cavalry" arrives.
All of this is moot anyway. In the TNE timeline, a faction of the TFL
"wins", Garda-Vilis gains it's independence, and becomes the leading Regency
world in the Vilis subsector. Maybe the radical TFL faction is spent after
this adventure and a more peaceable, and palatable, faction gains
prominence.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:33:52 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: the religion flamewar
I've always found it an irony that the UK has an established Christian Church
and is yet generally considered the most secular nation in the developed world.
ObTrav: The superficial forms of a government or society are not always
indicative of what that society is like. For example: a communist style
bureacracy where so much of the economy is underground that it effectively
operates as a free market economy. Theocracies that are really liberal
democracies and liberal democracies that are really theocracies.
Ben
PS: Considering the high regard that Americans seem to hold for their state
institutions perhaps the answer would be to allow an established religon. Church
attendence would probably start falling on day one.
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 4:31 AM
Subject: Re: the religion flamewar
> At 10:05 PM 2/7/01 -0800, Kiri wrote:
> ><SNIP>Among the many
> >reasons I intend to emigrate is the constant push to try and take over the
> >US government. It's not high on my list of reasons, because I don't think
> >it is likely to succeed, but it is on there.
>
> ??? To where?
> Bill Rutherford
> worj@home.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 15:17:15 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote
> But can you imagine what interstellar baseball would be like,
> with each world having different gravities and atmospheres?
The way to play baseball or another sport on the interstellar
level would be to get a surplus K'Kree ship that is just one
big compartment, set up that compartment as a playing field,
and jump it around between planets. The ship would maintain
a constant standard gravity, pressure, etc. The visiting team
would travel on the ship and the 'home' teams would play on the
ship when it reached their planet.
A playing field 100 meters square with a 10 meter roof would be
about 7,500 displacement tons. Would a sports dome with seating,
concessions, dugouts, scoreboard, whatever might be 300 meters
by 200 meters with a 50 meter roof be big enough for most events?
That would be about 225,000 displacement tons. If your sport does
not have a high flying ball you can trim the roof height down a lot
and save a lot of tonnage.
Any gearheads feel like designing such a ship? I'd make it jump 4
so it can follow the X-boat routes if you want an Imperium wide
sport but a local league where the teams follow the local main could
be jump 1.
You could set up a whole campaign around this idea if your players
were sports fans. The players familiar with Traveller could play crew,
while the players who knew nothing about it could play team members.
The starship is the team bus. It takes them around between planets,
in jump they practice. On planet they play games, give public
appearances, get in drunken riots, etc.
If the sport in question is popular enough you might even be able
to justify the costs but it might be better to gloss over the economics
involved.
Thoughts?
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 19:04:36 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: RE: What could go wrong?
On 02/22/01 at 07:54 AM, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:
>>This should drive the party nuts trying to find the cause.
>>
>>Charles H
>>
>>P.S. Repair solution: repair the malfunctioning part of the different
>>system, add more supports and tiedowns to the ventilation ducts.
>Gee! WHY does that sound so realistic, with a detailed repair
>diagnosis? Must have driven you NUTS 'till you found it,
>Charles...
Bruce and Terry, you know I'm reading all this don't you? <g> The old _Mae Lee_ already has some quirks and after all she's been through she might have acquired a few more. <g>
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:15:56 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Adventure 8
>I have dug out my copy of Adventure 8 to work up the basis for a
>TNE-based military campaign set in the Spinward Marches in CT times.
>When I first played it as a teenager, I thought this was the coolest
>adventure going. Now that I'm 35, I can see this adventure had a lot
>of holes in it that need fixing.
>
>Thoughts on Adventure 8: Broadsword
>
>1) Thirty-one troops, no matter how well armed and armored, aren't
>going to make a drop of difference in a planet-wide revolution,
>especially one with high-tech off-world support.
>
>2) The wheeled ATV is as useless as a military vehicle as mammary
>glands on a porcine of the male gender.
>
>3) Scenario II: The Ambush, is rather forced. The first time we
>gamed this (sometime in the 80s), the players simply loaded their
>prisoners and themselves in one of the cutters and flew back to base.
>
>I am reworking the adventure for use with the TNE rules and I've come
>up with a few fixes.
>
>1) The mercenary unit needs to be bumped up to at least a battalion in
>size, but would be better using a regiment. You'd never catch Hammer's
>Slammers or Falkenberg's Legion trying to put down a rebellion with a
>single platoon. Keep the mercenary cruiser as a unit asset, with most
>of the troops and their equipment coming in via commercial shipping.
>The cruiser will initially be intended as an ortillery platform, but
>the arrival of the Zhodani strike cruiser will of course put paid to
>that plan.
>
I agree. Make the PC's either an elite strike squad of a bigger Mercenary
force or the senior officers of a regimental size unit. Play out some
actions as unit actions with the PC's running the merc side and you running
the other. Play out the rest with the PC's using your regular combat RPG
rules. This gives a nice variance to the campaign, and in the unit actions
your PC's don't have to worry about dieing unless their whole unit is wiped
out.
>2) Ditch the ATVs. They are completely useless. Give the unit at
>least a company of armor and a company or two of G-carriers. They'll
>still be susceptible to the Gram mechanized battalion and the TFL's
>anti-armor teams, but at least they'll have a fighting chance.
>
I agree again. Wheeled vehicles have no place on any world with that high a
TL. Use a speeder or engineering sled. Give the command staff enclosed
air/rafts. I'd leave out the armor entirely. It gives the mercs too much of
an advantage. Besides it makes more sense for the government to call in an
infantry regiment to do this kind of anti-terrorist ticket. Their vehicles
should all be support vehicles. At this TL that should mean air/rafts for
light transport, sleds for heavy transport and a few armed speeders for fire
support. They don't expect to meet an armored battalion.
>3) Why the Zhodani strike cruiser simply doesn't drop a missile on the
>Broadsword as it sits on the ground at the starport is beyond me. The
>best plan I see for the Broadsword is to high-tail it off planet or
>park in some convenient body of water to hide it from the strike
>cruiser.
>
I've always been confused by the grounding of the Broadsword. According to
the ship design section the broadsword can only land on vacuum worlds (It's
unstreamlined.) Yet when the cruiser shows up it lands (as a matter of
desperation I suppose.) I think it would be better to have it run. The
merc's lose it as an asset, but the PC's or GM can bring it back for
desperate fire support, for a nick of time rescue, or use the fighters in
that way (if you have them.)
>4) There should be enough gravitic traffic on planet to mask the
>movements of the ship's cutters. Use them for fire support and troop
>transport.
>
Good idea.
>5) Odds are, the TFL are not sitting on their hands while the
>mercenaries deploy. Have them stage terrorist (i.e., car bomb) attacks
>against the mercenaries early on. As a goodly portion of the planet is
>in cahoots with the TFL, odds are they'll know the mercs are coming and
>will make plans to deal with them.
>
>6) Because a lot of the locals are TFL sympathizers, the locations of
>the deep meson gun sensor sites should be known to the TFL. Have the
>mercs rush around to aid the beleaguered defenders of the sensor sites
>from TFL raids. This will keep quite a bit of the unit's assets tied
>down as a reaction force and incapable of mounting an offensive against
>the guerrillas. Say bye-bye to the bonus. Of course, using their
>contacts with the Zhodani, the TFL might simply get the cruiser to drop
>a few missiles on each site.
>
If the TFL knows where the deep meson sights are then the Zho's can use
transport commandoes to take them out. I don't see missiles as effective,
the sites will take out the cruiser before it can bomb them. The flow of
action should be:
1) the merc's fail in their attempt to prevent the TFL with Zhodani commando
support from taking out the deep meson sites.
2) When the sites are neutralized the cruiser and Swordworld transports show
up and the Broadsword makes a run for it. About this time the Zho's declare
war on the Imperium.
3) The mercs go to ground in the hills. They become the guerrillas.
>7) Make more use of the Sword Worlders. Have the local TFL guerrilla
>leader call in for armored support should the mercs be getting the
>upper hand in an action.
>
>8) Make more use of the Zhodani commandos and Marines. This is
>especially good after the Zhodani declare war. The adventure starts on
>096-1107 and the Zhodani declare war on 187-1107 - 91 days later. At
>that time, reinforce the Zhodani cruiser with a couple of destroyer
>escorts.
>
>
>=====
>Gerry Harris
>***************************************************************************
*******************
>Æther Traveller - http://www.aethertraveller.com
>Soldier's Companion -
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
>***************************************************************************
*******************
>"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" - Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act
3, Scene 1
>***************************************************************************
*******************
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
>http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:29:14 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: "Refined" fuel
.<nods> I had thought about that, but it seemed like there was something
>more specific than that. Then again, I might be mis-remembering. Though
>there was SOMEthing....
>
>(I'll go back and dig)
>
>Victor
>
>At 11:57 PM 2/23/01 -0800, you wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>
>> > Dear TMLers,
>> >
>> > Back in the mists of time (or about five-six years ago), there was an
>> > explanation offered by a list-member of what was meant by "refined"
fuel.
>> >
>> > IIRC, there was a sort of liquid hydrogen - or perhaps a process that
>> could
>> > be applied to it - that caused the "fuel" to be particularly pure or
>> > uniform in character. I can't find the post in my somewhat-fragmented
>> > archives, but I just *bet* somebody here would recall what I am talking
>> > about. It was an application of a RL chemistry/physics "Obscure Fact"
>> > (maybe a particular *sort* of hydrogen?).
>> >
>> > Does anybody remember this explanation? Much appreciation for any
>> response.
>>
>>Well, to start with, there's the isotpoic composition of the fuel.
>>"Normal" hydrogen (sometimes referred to as "protium") has a single
>>proton as the nucleus. Deuterium has a proton and a neutron. It fuses
>>*much* more easily. And tritium has a proton and two neutrons, it fuses
>>still easier yet. But it's rare and unstable.
>>
>>Hydorgen molecules consist of two hydrogen atoms. There are two forms
>>the molecules can have. One has the spin axes of the atoms pointing in
>>the same direction the other has them pointing in opposite directions.
>>
>>One of these forms (I forget which) has more energy than the other.
>>Which means that every so often, thru random chance, it'll change into
>>the lower energy form and give of a little heat in the process. This is
>>actually enough to *boil* liquid hydrogen.
>>
>>Unless you use special catalysts, it takes a long time and a lot of
>>cooling to get LH2 to all be the low energy form of the molecule.
>>
>>--
>>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>> shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
>>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
>
>Victor J. Raymond
>Department of Sociology, ISU
>vraymond@iastate.edu
I think that it's much simpler than that. Jump fuel comes from three
sources, generally. Gas Giants, ice or water (Which is the same as ice
really). In the GG the hydrogen is mixed with other gases like helium,
methane, etc. In water the hydrogen is bound in the water molecule. Refined
fuel is simple pure hydrogen.
IMTU standard fusion reactors use very pure "low" energy form of the
molecule. The Jump Drive can use a mixture of both the high and low energy
form, although it's booster reactor uses deuterium, which must also be
separated by the refining process.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3743
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3744
Date: | 2/25/01 6:49:28 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Sunday, February 25 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3744
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
CT Reprints: MAJOR ERROR...
Re: CT Reprints: MAJOR ERROR...
Re: CT Reprints: MAJOR ERROR...
Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
Re: "Refined" fuel
Re: H2 vs H2O
Re: world series
Re: H2 vs H2O
Re: world series
Re: world series
RE: world series
Re: world series
RE: world series
Re: world series
Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
Creation Workshop/GURPS Creator
Re: world series
Re : Indefinite Life Span
Re: world series
Duelling
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 18:33:24 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: CT Reprints: MAJOR ERROR...
If this has already been discussed, forgive me for bringing it
up again.
Has anyone else purchased copies of the reprints of the Classic
Traveller material (books 0 thru 8 in one volume, and supplements
1 thru 13 in a 2nd volume)? I ask because I just bought both and
the volume containing the supplements appears to have a *BIG*
set of pages missing, right in the middle.
Supplement 5 (Lighting Class Cruisers) is followed by Supplement
6 (76 Patrons), as one might expect. Upon reading these 2 sections,
I discovered that, instead of the 42+ pages for "Cruisers" and the 48
pages for "Patrons", the "Cruisers" section end abruptly after page
27, and is immediately followed by page 16 of "Patrons". The rest of
the "Patrons" section continues normally until the end at page 48.
In effect, pages 28 thru 42+ are missing from "Cruisers" and pages
1 thru 15 are missing from "Patrons".
Did the entire print run end up like this, or did I just get a single bad
copy (which I can exchange at my FLGS)?
Enquiring (concerned) minds want to know.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 21:02:47 +0000
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: CT Reprints: MAJOR ERROR...
Looks like you got a bad one!
I checked my copy and it has all pages, asked on friends who just got
his on Friday and his is OK. Our local gaming store reports no returns
or complaints. I'd suggest contact the store where you purchased it,
or FarFuture re an exchange.
Regards,
Doug :-)
"Mark F. Cook" wrote:
>
> If this has already been discussed, forgive me for bringing it
> up again.
>
> Has anyone else purchased copies of the reprints of the Classic
> Traveller material (books 0 thru 8 in one volume, and supplements
> 1 thru 13 in a 2nd volume)? I ask because I just bought both and
> the volume containing the supplements appears to have a *BIG*
> set of pages missing, right in the middle.
>
> Supplement 5 (Lighting Class Cruisers) is followed by Supplement
> 6 (76 Patrons), as one might expect. Upon reading these 2 sections,
> I discovered that, instead of the 42+ pages for "Cruisers" and the 48
> pages for "Patrons", the "Cruisers" section end abruptly after page
> 27, and is immediately followed by page 16 of "Patrons". The rest of
> the "Patrons" section continues normally until the end at page 48.
>
> In effect, pages 28 thru 42+ are missing from "Cruisers" and pages
> 1 thru 15 are missing from "Patrons".
>
> Did the entire print run end up like this, or did I just get a single bad
> copy (which I can exchange at my FLGS)?
>
> Enquiring (concerned) minds want to know.
>
> - Mark C.
>
> mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
> 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
> Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 21:06:56 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: CT Reprints: MAJOR ERROR...
On 02/24/01 at 09:02 PM, "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca> said:
>Looks like you got a bad one!
>I checked my copy and it has all pages, asked on friends who just
>got his on Friday and his is OK. Our local gaming store reports no
>returns or complaints. I'd suggest contact the store where you
>purchased it, or FarFuture re an exchange.
>Regards,
>Doug :-)
>"Mark F. Cook" wrote:
>>
>> If this has already been discussed, forgive me for bringing it
>> up again.
>>
>> Has anyone else purchased copies of the reprints of the Classic
>> Traveller material (books 0 thru 8 in one volume, and supplements
>> 1 thru 13 in a 2nd volume)? I ask because I just bought both and
>> the volume containing the supplements appears to have a *BIG*
>> set of pages missing, right in the middle.
>>
>> Supplement 5 (Lighting Class Cruisers) is followed by Supplement
>> 6 (76 Patrons), as one might expect. Upon reading these 2 sections,
>> I discovered that, instead of the 42+ pages for "Cruisers" and the 48
>> pages for "Patrons", the "Cruisers" section end abruptly after page
>> 27, and is immediately followed by page 16 of "Patrons". The rest of
>> the "Patrons" section continues normally until the end at page 48.
>>
>> In effect, pages 28 thru 42+ are missing from "Cruisers" and pages
>> 1 thru 15 are missing from "Patrons".
>>
>> Did the entire print run end up like this, or did I just get a single bad
>> copy (which I can exchange at my FLGS)?
>>
>> Enquiring (concerned) minds want to know.
It's been discussed. I got *extra* pages...maybe even yours, because they were in that area...that duplicated part of one book. I didn't send mine back for a replacement, because everything was there. If you're missing pages you *should* get a replacement.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 22:05:50 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
Peter Newman wrote:
> Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote
>
> > But can you imagine what interstellar baseball would be like,
> > with each world having different gravities and atmospheres?
>
> The way to play baseball or another sport on the interstellar
> level would be to get a surplus K'Kree ship that is just one
> big compartment, set up that compartment as a playing field,
> and jump it around between planets. The ship would maintain
> a constant standard gravity, pressure, etc. The visiting team
> would travel on the ship and the 'home' teams would play on the
> ship when it reached their planet.
That destroys much of baseball's character. How can you have
Colorado's lower air pressure, Wrigley field's ivy and neighborhood
spectators, the Green Monster and the Pinsky Pole at Fenway,
the beautiful new Pac Bell park with the right field viewing area
for passers by.
Good baseball players not only have to play their opponents,
they have to play the field they are in. Just like golfers. Some
parks/courses had advantages/disadvantages for different
players.
If you did it with ships, it doesn't matter where you are playing.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:01:09 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: "Refined" fuel
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:36:53 -0600, Victor Jason Raymond
<vraymond@iastate.edu> wrote:
>Dear TMLers,
>
>Back in the mists of time (or about five-six years ago), there was an
>explanation offered by a list-member of what was meant by "refined" fuel.
>
>IIRC, there was a sort of liquid hydrogen - or perhaps a process that could
>be applied to it - that caused the "fuel" to be particularly pure or
>uniform in character. I can't find the post in my somewhat-fragmented
>archives, but I just *bet* somebody here would recall what I am talking
>about. It was an application of a RL chemistry/physics "Obscure Fact"
>(maybe a particular *sort* of hydrogen?).
>
>Does anybody remember this explanation? Much appreciation for any response.
Though I wasn't present on the TML at the time, could this be
monoatomic hydrogen, otherwise known as single H or H radical. It is
known that if you manage to maintain a supply of monoatomic hydrogen
that it is highly reactive and will yield as near to atomic energy
levels when it is allowed to bind with almost anything.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:01:03 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:12:56 +1100, Timothy Little
<tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net> wrote:
>David P. Summers wrote:
>> If you want to store the most hydrogen, I tend to go with as big a
>> hydrocarbon as you can handle.
>
>The biggest one I could find offhand (hexadecane, or cetane), has a
>hydrogen density of 116 kg/m^3 (1.62 ton/dton). Concentrated ammonia
>solution has the same hydrogen density, but more useful "waste"
>products. Liquid ammonia has a hydrogen density of 120 kg/m^3 -- the
>best H density I could find for any reasonable common compound.
>
>Water has hydrogen density of 112 kg/m^2, and the small difference in
>hydrogen density is probably far outweighed by the ease of obtaining
>it and handling it, and its usefulness in other respects.
>
><SNIP>
Though I'm not familiar with the specifics, I know that in present-day
fuel cell usage, people have found that storing the H2 adsorbed on a
palladium matrix achieves densities far in excess of liquid H2. I
don't know if it reaches the levels you are describing above, but it
would certainly be worthwhile looking at.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 23:57:36 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: world series
On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:24:24 -0500 (EST), Bruce Johnson
<johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:
>On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:07:00 -0000 grote1731@hotmail.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
>wrote:
>> However, both teams actually play the game in overtime, with the team
>>on offense performing the same tasks they did during the previous 60 minutes
>>to get the ball within the field goal range of their kicker. The ball
>>simply isn't teed up at the 25 yard line automatically and the team with the
>>best out of ten shots wins. They play the game to get it there. Play The
>>Game.
>And of course, gragging it back Off-Topic; this is exactly how they break ties
>in baseball...by playing until there isn't one.
Well, not exactly, but close. Don't forget about the 'Home Team Last
Licks' rule - if the visitors are ahead at the end of the top half of the
inning, the home team gets another shot. If the home team is ahead at that
point (or at the end of the inning), it's over.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:59:51 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: H2 vs H2O
JR Holmes wrote:
> Though I'm not familiar with the specifics, I know that in present-day
> fuel cell usage, people have found that storing the H2 adsorbed on a
> palladium matrix achieves densities far in excess of liquid H2.
In excess, yes. But not *far* in excess. Such a system is generally
hard-pressed to reach a loading of 1.0 H/Pd (literally hard-pressed,
using pressures of thousands of atmospheres). Smaller loadings can be
obtained by electrochemical means, with high resistive losses.
A loading of 1.0 H/Pd corresponds to a hydrogen density of 106 kg/m^3,
making it slightly worse than water. That assumes that all of the
space is taken up by solid palladium which is fully loaded to the best
of our technology.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:49:07 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: world series
On 02/23/01 at 06:34 PM, "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> said:
>Mr. Reddoch,
No need for that, call me Eris.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:54:04 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: world series
On 02/23/01 at 10:45 AM, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:
>>There's nothing better than being able to go out to a game on a
>>warm sunny afternoon...
><snip>
>Wow, that was beautifully done.
Thank you, Doug.
>Last year, we took some friend's kids to Pac Bell Park for a game.
>Great summer day, Giants/Cubbies, so I could root for both sides..
>perfect baseball day.
Hee, hee!
>As we stood in Willie Mays Plaza it came out that these young'uns
>had *never* heard "Casey at the Bat." Shocking! I happen to know
>it by heart, so I started reciting it. I didn't notice that I was
>attracting an audience until I finished and the applause broke out.
>:)
Great piece of literature...probably only to Americans, though. <g>
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 01:11:42 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: RE: world series
On 02/24/01 at 10:31 AM, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> said:
>Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote :
>> I cannot even imagine a football game being remotely
>> interesting. This, of course, is due to my upbringing.
>> Games go for 90 minutes, or more, and no one scores. Defense is far
>> stronger and, thanks to the rules about passing the ball,
>There are no rules about passing the ball.
>> the offense is pitifully weak.
>Hmm, obviously never seen a good striker in action.
>> If a soccer game is scoreless after 90 minutes,
>> you've been bored for that long.
Frank, let me disassociate myself from Larson's comments in this
case. This American thinks that Soccer, as we call it here, is a
fine game filled with strategy and drama and played by skilled
athletes. I enjoy Aussie football and Rugby when I get a chance to
see them, too. If I had seen more than a few seconds of cricket I'm
sure I'd judge it a fine game as well. <g>
Sports junkie that I am, I still follow baseball. If I had the rank
my favorite team sports as a spectator/fan they would be: Major
League Baseball, American College Football, College Basketball,
American Professional Football, Canadian Football, English Football
(soccer), Australian Football, College Baseball, Professional
Basketball, and Rugby.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 01:27:54 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: world series
On 02/24/01 at 12:54 AM, mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson) said:
>In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20010223104551.3ba7e4d8@pop.mindspring.com>
>Greetings dear hearts, especially Douglas.
>Thank you for the 'Casey at the Bat' poem... while still not
>knowing anything about baseball (yes, Mr Whipsnade, your kind
>offer has been noted and if I'm ever in the right place at the
>right time I would be delighted to accept your escort to a game!)
>I collect stories and poems for 'traditional storytelling' - my 4
>year old may get that in the morning when she gets out of bed.
>She's had a daily story since she was 2 days old (which was when I
>was well enough to see her...).
Mexal, the recitation of "Casey at the Bat" was a standard for professional orators in travelling companies of entertainers during a hundred years ago. It captures the feel of the US, especially, in that period.
If you collect stories, I'm sure you are as familar with "Paul Bunyan", "Pecos Bill", "Casey Jones", and "Uncle Remus" as you are with "Beatrix Potter."
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 07:29:52 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: world series
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
"Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote :
I cannot even imagine a football game being remotely interesting.
This, of course, is due to my upbringing."
"Frank, let me disassociate myself from Larson's comments in this
case."
Eris,
Everyone seems to be forgetting my assertion that I had been exposed to
football (soccer) as a youngster, I would be as big a fan as anyone else on
the planet. I've made sure to put that tidbit in every post on this OT
topic, but it seems to get lost somehow. It seems my clumsy writing style
buries my "excuse" in each post.
As for other sports, I played rugby (and have the facial scars to prove
it) and have enjoyed either playing in or watching most any contest you can
imagine (except those pitting animals against humans or each other).
My "problem" with FIFA football is the extremely silly way it ends tie
matches. indeed one of the few matches I ever attended ended in that
manner. My host had explained the game to me during regulation play and I
found myself enjoying it, especially the ebb and flow of the ball's
movement. Then a tie occurred and the shoot out settled things. It was
quite a let down and left me quite sour on the game.
But, hey, it's just one grey-headed, fat man's opinion.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 01:42:46 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: world series
On 02/24/01 at 09:46 AM, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> said:
>At 08:44 AM 2/24/2001 +1000, you wrote:
>>Out of idle curiousity: is soccer more popular in areas with large Latino
>>populations?
>Not really. The San Jose Earthquakes play in a heavily Latino
>area, and have a re hard time filling seats.
I'd argue that soccer *is* more popular in heavily populated immigrant areas, but the soccer they are interested in is *not* American Professional Soccer. I'd much rather watch a game between Manchester and Leeds or Brazil vs. Columbia on TV than one between San Jose and LA...wouldn't you?
There are several reasons Major League Soccer isn't working in the US. It doesn't have the fan(atic) base of older, more established, sports here. There isn't, yet, a strong feeder system (college or minor league teams) that trains the thousands of players from which a few tens emerge good enough to play a game at a very high skill level. There isn't a consistantly high level of teaching skill among soccer coaches, yet (that's were a lot of those thousands that don't make it in other sports end up). Frankly, I think the concentration should be on high school and college for now. A successful professional league is still probably 20 years off.
Eris
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 07:53:02 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com
"That destroys much of baseball's character. How can you have
Colorado's lower air pressure, Wrigley field's ivy and neighborhood
spectators, the Green Monster and the Pinsky Pole at Fenway,
the beautiful new Pac Bell park with the right field viewing area
for passers by."
Bloo,
Why not a series of "Classic Park Ships"? The ships could be built
with the odd lines, short foul poles, and all the other quirky bits that
make each park so much fun to visit. An ISS Fenway, ISS Polo Grounds, and
ISS Wrigley could barnstorm across the Solomani Rim. The ISS Candlestick
could even set the air conditioning temperature a little lower and the fan
speed a little higher than the others.
The teams could be made up of reenactors too. A "Gehrig" could take
the double play ball from a "Jeter". Buckner, Williams, and Nomar could all
play together on the Olde Towne Team, and the Cubbies would always have an
"Ernie Banks".
My partially insane 57th century descendants, who take after their
progenitor naturally, would save up for the oh-so-pricey tickets when the
ISS Tiger Stadium, complete with an "Ernie Harwell" announcer, makes orbit
above Apponaug Starport on New Rhode Island.
Larsen
P.S. The current trend by corporate weasels to "name" ballparks, stadiums,
and college bowl games after their firms and products is something I'll
never stomach. Candlestick is Candlestick, not 3Com. Joe Robbie is Joe
Robbie, not ProPlayer. The new S.F. Giants park should been named for Mr.
Willie Mays, the "Say Hey Kid", and not for which ever "new economy" telecom
slimeball coughed up the biggest check.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:00:02 -0800
From: "Craig Brain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Creation Workshop/GURPS Creator
I have just purchased this software and was wondering if anyone here has any
Traveller templates for use with them?
The manuals are not particularly user-friendly, telling you to use the
online help, which in turn seems to go in circles.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 08:02:00 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: world series
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
"A successful professional league is still probably 20 years off."
Eris,
I remember the same phrase over 25 years ago when Pele kicked off a pro
league in the US. That was about 3 pro leagues ago. It didn't happen then,
and it won't in the future.
There are too many sports choices in the US and the immigrants'
children could care less about their parents' hometown teams. Young
hispanics are wearing Yankees and basketball jerseys, not the togs belonging
to the wonderful football teams in central and south America.
We have a large Portuguese and Italian community in my area. The newly
arrived follow their favorite clubs in the "old country". Their kids
couldn't care less.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:29:29 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Indefinite Life Span
Rupert Boleyn wrote :-
> I'm fairly sure I saw a study of developed nations that showed that
> for a given average income the country with the greatest wealth
> difference had the lowest life expectancy, even in the wealthy
> component of its population.
Within the OECD group, there is some positive correlation between income
ratio and life expectancy, but it is small. Breaking the population up by
income doesn't improve the correlation.
Crime rates would have to be very different between countries for them to
have a significant impact on life expectancy. Homicide or suicide accounts
for about 5% of all deaths (.5%/~5% respectively).
Other factors come into play : infrastructure access, health care provision,
education, nutrition...
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:56 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: world series
In-Reply-To: <200102250729.HAA60191@pompano.pcola.gulf.net>
Greetings dear hearts, especially Eris.
I know 'Paul Bunyan' & 'Casey Jones' - but I haven't heard of 'Pecos
Bill'. Hmm. Time to go netrunning...
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 14:47 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Duelling
Greetings dear hearts.
I have been writing the Duelling section of that scenario I
was talking about. Would you good people care to look it
over?
<<Begin quote>>
Anyone can direct the party to the Golden Pyramid Duelling
Arena, the most prestigious one on the planet. Indeed, a
live feed to one TV station is broadcast on a permanent
basis, with reruns of classic duels, commentaries and the
like broadcast when nobody is fighting. Arena A is reserved
for renowned fighters - as the two people most likely to
wish to fight with the party (St Brioche and Cascada) fall
into this category, this will be the venue for any duel
during the adventure. Moreover, even if the fight involves
somebody else, business is a bit slack and offworlders
wishing to participate in this traditional Lehari activity
have a certain novelty value.
The combat area itself is a standard 20 metre circle of
sand, delimited by a thick rope dyed crimson. While this
can be anywhere, here in the formal setting of Arena A it
is mounted on a raised platform with seating around it.
Think of a Sumo basho or boxing ring.
The procedure is as follows: -
· The challenge must be formally stated before a
Judge of Honour. A big establishment like the Golden
Pyramid has half a dozen on the staff. The one who will
deal with the characters is Madam Judge Sarai Tamazarian.
To state the challenge, the aggrieved party should say,
"Sir you do me insult. I require satisfaction on the field
of honour." No response is necessary; the challenged
person's presence in the Judge of Honour's office indicates
their acceptance of the challenge. The Judge then asks if
an apology or restitution is acceptable, if this is the
case, the Judge then asks the challenged person if he is
prepared to offer one.
· Assuming that no reconciliation is possible, the
details are settled. The challenger is required to indicate
whether a duel to the death is necessary or if 'first
blood' will satisfy him. A date and time is then arranged
for the duel. Normally, the duel will take place within 24
hours of the formal challenge. During this period, the
combatants are expected to avoid each other.
· At the time appointed, the duellists are required
to appear in the arena before the Judge of Honour, who
asks, "Are you both resolved to proceed?" On being answered
in the affirmative, the Judge retires to an elevated seat
and signals the start of the duel by dropping a large white
handkerchief.
· For the duel, combatants are required to wear light
trunks and soft shoes with special soles designed to give a
good foothold on the arena floor. Female duellists may wear
a close-fitting tee shirt. The traditional weapon is a
'foil' - somewhat more substantial than the weapon used in
a fencing club, it is more like the sort of sword one of
the Three Musketeers might have carried; a foot-long dagger
with a plain cross-hilt is carried in the 'off' hand.
· Regulation clothing and weapons are available for
hire at a cost of Cr.250 for individuals who do not possess
their own. Alternatively, many stores in Lehar City are
able to supply them.
Name Damage TL Range Shots Mass
Reloads Cost
Lehari Foil 2D 2 Contact N/a 0.75kg N/a
Cr700+
Fencing Dagger 1D 2 Contact N/a 0.5kg N/a
Cr400+
Typical Clothing Costs
Duelling trunks Cr.50
Duelling shoes Cr.35
Tee shirt Cr.30
Once started by the Judge of Honour, the combat continues
until the 'satisfaction' conditions set by the challenger
are met - First Blood or Death. If one of the combatants is
rendered unconscious, the other may opt to end the fight
there, or kill his opponent (an act considered 'unsporting'
although legitimate).
At the Golden Pyramid Duelling Arena, a permanent medical
station is maintained: people duelling elsewhere may not be
so well served. Basic first aid from the Golden Pyramid
medical service is included in the cost of the duel.
Further treatment in hospital is at individual expense.
Duelling Costs
The Challenge before a Judge of Honour Cr.50 from
each party
Arena hire Cr.100 from
each party
However, if - as is likely at the Golden Pyramid - the duel
is broadcast, a fee will be payable to the participants.
This depends on the reputation of the participants, and
needs to be settled with the local representative of the
broadcaster before the bout. Typical fees range from
Cr.1,000 up. Noted duellists such as St Brioche command a
fee of Cr.10,000; Cascada could expect slightly less,
Cr.7,000 or so. The novelty value of an offworld duellist
will attract a fee of Cr.3,000. Note that the fee is paid
AFTER the duel, to the victor - so an 'unknown' who
succeeds in defeating a famous exponent of the duellist's
art may stand to gain considerably more than reputation.
However, duelling for any reason other than a matter of
honour is frowned upon, and may result in legal proceedings
even if the correct procedures have been followed.
In addition, the participants receive a share of ticket
sales - and this at least is paid to both duellists. For
Arena A the likely proceeds will be in the order of Cr.500
apiece, individual seats sell at Cr.10. It is normal that
the duellist's companions will be admitted free of charge.
Rules
The skill used for the contest is Fencing. Blade Combat at
half may be substituted if no Fencing skill is held.
For each combat round of the event: -
1. Determine Initiative: 1D from each participant,
highest roll to go first.
2. The loser of the initiative roll must state whether
he wishes to Parry or mount a Counterattack. Either action
is simultaneous with the winner's Attack roll; however if a
Counterattack is made, the Attack if successful will do its
damage unhindered. If a Parry is performed, it can stop an
attack if it is successful. A Counterattack cannot be
defended against.
3. The person with higher Initiative makes an Attack
roll of 2D + Fencing skill, and the opponent may Parry or
Counterattack with 2D + Fencing skill. The Attack requires
a roll of 8+ to be successful, a Parry requires 8+ and a
Counterattack requires 10+.
4. Assess damage done.
5. The loser of the Initiative roll may now Attack.
The opponent has the choice of Parry or Counterattack. Make
rolls as above.
6. At this point, both individuals may attempt to use
their daggers. The options available are: -
· Trap opponent's foil - 9+ on 2D + ½ Fencing skill.
· Stab opponent - 7+ on 2D (no modifier).
· Parry opponent's dagger - 7+ on 2D + Fencing or
Blade Combat skill.
Then repeat the process until there is a result for the
duel.
<<End quote>>
Any thoughts? I want the fights to move reasonably fast -
the whole game must run in a 4-hour convention slot so I
don't want to get too bogged down in a sword fight, but I
do want it to be a memorable experience for the players.
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3744
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3745
Date: | 2/25/01 6:09:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Sunday, February 25 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3745
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
TML FAQ, HGDSS, FFS Equations and Sign-Off
Re: (mostly OT) Cricket
Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
RE: (mostly OT) Cricket
Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
Re: "Refined" fuel
Re: world series
Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
Dino's Last Message
Re: Darrian names?
Interstellar sport - (was: world series, soccer, etc.)
Re: More KB3 Questions
Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
Re: More KB3 Questions
Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Attention Doug Berry: Your Minions are Ready
RE: world series
RE: world series
RE: world series
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 14:49:17 -0000
From: "Stuart C. Squibb" <scs@vectis.demon.co.uk>
Subject: TML FAQ, HGDSS, FFS Equations and Sign-Off
Dear All,
Real Life has meant that I have been unable to devote any significant time
to traveller over the last 12 months or so. As a result of this I have taken
the decision to end my various traveller mailing-list subscriptions and take
down my Traveller web site.
The TML FAQ will be available from my web site in zipped archives of the
text and HTML versions until 1st April 2001.
HGDSS my High Guard Design Sequence Spreadsheet for Excel 97 will also be
available until 1st April 2001. Anyone who wishes to take the development of
HGDSS on has my permission to do so, provided that they don't call the
result HGDSS. A 'derived from HGDSS' comment in the resulting code would be
nice, but I don't insist on it.
My tidied up equations for FFS2 will also be available as a zipped archives
of the Word 97 and HTML/GIF versions until 1st April 2001.
The above items are available on my web-site:
http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller
Keep the Flame,
Stuart.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:49:21 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: (mostly OT) Cricket
On 23 Feb 01, at 22:53, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> My cryptic "cheese in the kitchen and a yakker for a kudo" can be
> explained like this. Cheese (a fastball) in the kitchen (close to the
> batter) and a yakker (a slider) for a kudo (a strikeout). The squirrel bait
> who came up with that one also referred to liquor as "oil" and money as
> "iron".
Sounds like the article in yesterday's enwspaper I saw about
"Dubya"'s[1] penchant for nicknaming everyone. (To the point that no
one in the White House staff knows who he's talking about - evidently
Dubya asked for "Guns"
to go to Kansas City for something, and the aide told Gen. Colin
Powell to go, figuring no one else but him would be called "Guns".
He got halfway there before the mixup was realized and when asked,
President Bush only said "Why on earth would I send Balloonfoot to do
Guns job?" or something like that.)
Rob
[1] (Thanks, Glenn)
- --
Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis, ad caput tuum saxum
immane mittam.
I have a catapult. Give me all the money, or I will fling an enormous
rock at your head.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 09:01:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Scott Ayres <ayrcontml@yahoo.com>
Subject: Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
With gravitics, I imagine that there'd be a movement
to keep particular sports "pure" (in their native
gravity).
"Baseball ain't 'real' baseball unless you play it at
1G."
Scott Ayres
> Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:47:15
> From: "Douglas E. Berry"
>
> At 11:47 AM 2/24/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >But can you imagine what interstellar baseball
> would be like, with each world having different
> gravities and atmospheres?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 12:07:58 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: RE: (mostly OT) Cricket
Rob Davenport wrote:
>Sounds like the article in yesterday's enwspaper I saw about
>"Dubya"'s[1] penchant for nicknaming everyone. (To the point that no
>one in the White House staff knows who he's talking about - evidently
>Dubya asked for "Guns"
>to go to Kansas City for something, and the aide told Gen. Colin
>Powell to go, figuring no one else but him would be called "Guns".
>He got halfway there before the mixup was realized and when asked,
>President Bush only said "Why on earth would I send Balloonfoot to do
>Guns job?" or something like that.)
Just out of curiosity, which newspaper did you see that in?
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:05:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [Website Review] Jumpspace
In mail you write:
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> >> OS/2 Warp 4 AMD K6-2-500 320 "main box"
>> >
>> > Gee, someones still using OS/2 ?
>> > Even IBM aren't doing that anymore ! <grin>
>>
>> Want to bet? They've *guaranteed* support for 5 more years. Which is
>> more than Microsoft will do with Windows.
>
> They're _supporting_ it, they're not _using_ it.
> Well, I suppose someone somewhere in IBM is still using it, but it's no
> longer the standard COE rollout, not since about 1997-98.
>
> And I thought they said only another five years two or three years ago ?
Which proves that they've got *lots* of customers using it. Also, one
of their "new" products (eServer?) is merely OS/2 Warp 4.5 under a new name.
> <snip>
>> > But then I get an new one every year or two,
>> > and I never get rid of the old ones.
>>
>> I wasn't able to afford new ones for quite a few years.
>
> Neither was I, but I never let not being able to afford something stop me.
> <grin>
I mean *really* not afford. Not merely inconvenient, but *impossible*.
> Well, the point of hooking the BBC up would be to download all the games and
> software I have for it to my PC so I can use it on a BBC emulator, and
> perhaps recoveer a few really old files, like my Traveller character
> generator written in BBC Basic, ported by hand from the listing of the
> original TRS80 Basic...
I just want to store the software for tose systems on a more reliable
storage system.
I can recover stuff easily enough, just by using terminal oprograms on
the TRS-80 suff.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:11:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: "Refined" fuel
In mail you write:
> On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:36:53 -0600, Victor Jason Raymond
> <vraymond@iastate.edu> wrote:
>
>>Dear TMLers,
>>
>>Back in the mists of time (or about five-six years ago), there was an
>>explanation offered by a list-member of what was meant by "refined" fuel.
>>
>>IIRC, there was a sort of liquid hydrogen - or perhaps a process that could
>>be applied to it - that caused the "fuel" to be particularly pure or
>>uniform in character. I can't find the post in my somewhat-fragmented
>>archives, but I just *bet* somebody here would recall what I am talking
>>about. It was an application of a RL chemistry/physics "Obscure Fact"
>>(maybe a particular *sort* of hydrogen?).
>>
>>Does anybody remember this explanation? Much appreciation for any response.
>
> Though I wasn't present on the TML at the time, could this be
> monoatomic hydrogen, otherwise known as single H or H radical. It is
> known that if you manage to maintain a supply of monoatomic hydrogen
> that it is highly reactive and will yield as near to atomic energy
> levels when it is allowed to bind with almost anything.
No, monatomic hydrogen won't yield anythung remotely approach nuclear
energy levels. It does supply a lot of energy when allowed to recomine
into diatomic molecular hydrogen. The resulting rocket engine would
have an Isp of around 800. At least partly due to the low molecular
weight of the exhaust.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:27:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: world series
In mail you write:
> In-Reply-To: <200102250729.HAA60191@pompano.pcola.gulf.net>
> Greetings dear hearts, especially Eris.
>
> I know 'Paul Bunyan' & 'Casey Jones' - but I haven't heard of 'Pecos
> Bill'. Hmm. Time to go netrunning...
Also check out "Alfred(?) Bullhead Stormalong". He's to merchant seamen
of the sailing era what Paul Bunyan was to loggers. The name was set up
to match the "ABS" initials (for Able Bodied Seamn) used when signing
on a ship.
When he retired the stories have him shouldering an oar and stating
that he was going to start walking inland until someone asked him what
the stick was. There he'd settle down.
I have a book (buried in storage along with far too many others) goes
into a lot of this sort of American folklore. I was given oit as a
child and kept it ever since.
BTW, in the section on "State Lore" they have a *lovely* for Colorado.
And could be swiped for Traveller.
The "Slide-Rock Grabber" is a large lizard that lives in the mountains.
It lies in wait at the top of steep slopes in valleys, with its tail
wrapped around a tree or large rock.
It waits for a group of animals (or a party of tourists) to pass below
its perch. Then it releases the hold and starts sliding down the slop
on its thick, smooth belly plates. It uses its short legs to steer and
to increase its speed somewhat.
As it reaches its prey it is moving astonishingly fast and opens its
large mouth to scoop them up in passing. Then it slides up the other
slope, using its legs more and more as it slows. At last it drags
itself to a good anchor point and wraps its tail around it and hangs
facing downslope, digesting its prey and waiting for the next batch to
come along.
They are currently endangered due to over hunting (dummies stuffed with
styrichnine or dynamite were used).
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:17:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
In mail you write:
> Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote
>
> The way to play baseball or another sport on the interstellar
> level would be to get a surplus K'Kree ship that is just one
> big compartment, set up that compartment as a playing field,
> and jump it around between planets. The ship would maintain
> a constant standard gravity, pressure, etc. The visiting team
> would travel on the ship and the 'home' teams would play on the
> ship when it reached their planet.
<snip>
> If the sport in question is popular enough you might even be able
> to justify the costs but it might be better to gloss over the economics
> involved.
>
> Thoughts?
It'd be much simpler to either build an orbital station, or even build
stadium with pressure and gravity control, and let the players travel
by regular ships.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:13:34 -0000
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
Subject: Dino's Last Message
Hiya peeps,
All this discussion of what we would find if Dino Flintstone had left his
mark reminds me of the first Terry 'Discworld' Pratchett book I read,
"Strata". Worth a read, IMNSHO.
The fossil was found holding a placard saying 'End Nuclear testing NOW!"
Just thought I'd share it.
TTFN.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:32:42 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: Darrian names?
On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:34:17 -0500 (EST), eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:
>On 02/18/01 at 11:04 PM, Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net> said:
>>I have a spreadsheet that generates names for 13 different Trav
>>languages (Ael Yael, Aslan, Darrian, Dynchia, Gvegh, Happirhvani,
>>Hkar, K'kree, Norsk, Oynprith, Vilani, Vuakedh and Zhodani). I
>>can send it to you if you are interested.
>>Jimmy Simpson
>> nimrodd@mail.com
>That's something that should be hosted on a webpage somewhere. If one of
>the big Traveller sites, like Downport, isn't interested, Jimmy, send it
>to me, I'll host it on my little old webpage.
It'll be on Freelance Traveller's Computer Connection with the next update,
rest assured.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 22:56:06 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Interstellar sport - (was: world series, soccer, etc.)
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
"But can you imagine what interstellar baseball would be like, with
each world having different gravities and atmospheres?"
"grin* I'm just picturing a pop-up on a world with .4g"
The batter could probably enjoy a beer in the stands while waiting for
it come back down.
Mr. Berry,
I believe that the different gravities and atmospheres would affect all
sports played on an interstellar level. There would have to be quite a
large section of rules for each governing body to use for "adjusting" any
athletic venue.
Minor changes in something as simple as atmospheric pressure would
effect the athletes themselves, never mind their equipment. Look at how
long the track and field marks set during the Mexico City Olympics lasted.
It's now commonplace for runners and bicyclists to train at altitude now.
One of the members here (I'm sorry but I forgot your name, sir) made
the suggestion that "vitual" athletes and teams would be shipped from world
to world for competition. The competition involving these data packages
could all be held at Earth-norm conditions inside a 57th century mainframe
and rebroadcast holographically into homes and stadiums. Virtual
competitors might herald the return of the so called "blood sports", with
all horro of the Roman games intact.
Events featuring "real" athletes would still happen. Indeed they might
be viewed as very special "once in a while" sort of thing, with exhorbitant
ticket prices. Plenty of skullduggery there for your PCs to wallow in.
OBTrav: "The outlook wasn't brilliant for the Natoko Nine that day..."
The Delphine Cup, an interworld baseball trophy pitting all-star teams
from Mora, Fornice, Natoko, Heroni, Lunion, and Strouden, will be played in
one months time. All competing squads have arrived on Mora for training.
The Natoko Cub Sox, perennial door mats of the competition, are
fielding their best team in years, thanks to the presence of Jorg "Kid"
Kigiisii. The "Kid", while a phenomenal ball player, is an equally
phenomenal carouser. The PCs are tapped to act as "distant" bodyguards.
The visiable guards will know who the PCs are, but the general public
shouldn't. The PCs will have to follow the "Kid" as he cuts a swath through
Mora's nightlife; running interference with awestruck fans, paying for
damages, picking up bar tabs, placating angry nightclub owners and angrier
women, just generally trying to smooth things over.
There are several rumors that other teams, book makers, and other bad
guys will be trying to tempt the "Kid" off his game or just get him injured.
They'll be trying to introduce "rotten apples" into to his entourage in
order to stir up trouble and encourage bad behavior.
Can the PCs foil these many and varied plots and help the Cub Sox bring
the trophy home to their legendary stadium, Wrigway Park, on the south side
of Bostago? Or will the evil Mora Blue Bellies and their satanic owner, the
Krurruna, "buy" the Trophy yet again? Millions of youngsters watching their
tri-d radios on their arcology's front porch are hoping the PCs prevail.
Larsen E. "Take me out to the ballgame" Whipsnade
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:11:43 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: More KB3 Questions
Dear Kenneth -
Thanks for you response, it was very helpful.
You wrote:
>An attribute roll gets a special modifier to the Difficulty. (Reduce the
>Difficulty by an amount equal to the stat.)
AH ha! That's the bit I was missing! (In fact, it was still missing when I
went back and re-read your example).
However, you have just made things crystal clear. ;-)
>> 2. "Exactly Equal" Cases
>>
>> Also, your rules missed the "exactly equals" cases:
>> - when the Task Throw and Difficulty Throw are _equal_, which one
>>prevails?
>
>I didn't miss that (I just don't thing the "greater than or equal to" and
"less
>than or equal to" signs came out right on the TML write up).
>
>Just for clarification: if the Task Throw and the Difficulty Throw are
equal,
>the Task Throw is a success.
So, in the following cases:
> - when a successful Task Throw is _equal_ to Diff Throw + Stat, is it
>standard or marginal success?
> - when a failed Task Throw is _equal_ to Diff Throw - Stat, is it a
>regular or greater failure?
...the answers are "standard success" and "regular failure", respectively?
>> 4. How Do Task Throw Bonuses Work?
>
>Modifiers ALWAYS are applied to the difficulty. They are ALMOST NEVER
applied
>to the Task Roll (I say "almost" because there are one or two exceptions).
>
>In KB3, you're only modifing ONE number--the Difficulty.
Ah, that makes things much easier.
>Negative. Reduce your difficulty with your mods from your better
equipment--it
>will be MORE LIKELY that you roll Greater Success.
When you say "reduce your difficulty" do you also imply "use less dice on
the Task Throw - it gives more chance of Greater Success"?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:43:53 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> Bloo,
> Why not a series of "Classic Park Ships"?
For the same reason that Chris Thrash posited that
soccer's popularity is that it needs only a ball.
Baseball needs only a ball and a stick.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:12:58 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: More KB3 Questions
Dear Kenneth -
On e more thing I forgot to ask - when will the final version be written
up, and are you planning to put it on the Web as well as the TML?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:21:01 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Deneb sector - Loren?
Dear Folks -
The canonical data should be the stuff in the _Regency Sourcebook_, right?
It has the 1120 data in there...
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:38:32 -0500
From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com>
Subject: Attention Doug Berry: Your Minions are Ready
The promo for next week's "Futurama" which aired after tonight's episode was
for an episode called "When Penguins Attack."
In the promo, Leela says "and they used to be such peaceful birds" while
penguins are seen attempting to swallow humans headfirst.
No Gridlore logos were seen, but they must surely figure in somewhere.
Fred "And now it's time for the penguin on top of your television to
explode" Ramen
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:15:55 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: world series
On 25 Feb 2001, at 1:11, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:
> Frank, let me disassociate myself from Larson's comments in this
> case. This American thinks that Soccer, as we call it here, is a
> fine game filled with strategy and drama and played by skilled
> athletes. I enjoy Aussie football and Rugby when I get a chance to
> see them, too. If I had seen more than a few seconds of cricket I'm
> sure I'd judge it a fine game as well. <g>
We call it soccer here, too (usually, that is). Football or "footie" means
rugby.
> Sports junkie that I am, I still follow baseball. If I had the rank
> my favorite team sports as a spectator/fan they would be: Major
> League Baseball, American College Football, College Basketball,
> American Professional Football, Canadian Football, English Football
> (soccer), Australian Football, College Baseball, Professional
> Basketball, and Rugby.
You really are a heretic, aren't you? Nobody should be putting American
Football, Gridiron, whatever before Rugby (Union, not that crappy league
thing).
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:07:41 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: world series
Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote :
> My "problem" with FIFA football is the extremely silly way
> it ends tie matches. indeed one of the few matches I ever attended ended
in that
> manner. My host had explained the game to me during regulation
> play and I
> found myself enjoying it, especially the ebb and flow of the ball's
> movement. Then a tie occurred and the shoot out settled things. It was
> quite a let down and left me quite sour on the game.
It's a shame when that happens, but unfortunately the old way, to replay the
match, was just too expensive and time consuming in today's regime of
tightly scheduled tournaments.
Playing till one side wins is equally out when players are so expensive.
You only get a shoot out after the teams have played an additional fifteen
minutes each way, so the players will have been playing for 2 hours by the
time the shoot-out occurs, and if they kept them playing longer that, I'm
sure there would be complaints about risking damage to the players !
Usually you only get shoot outs when both sides are really good, and no-one
makes any mistakes (or they make an equal number of mistakes).
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:20:53 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: world series
Larsen E. Whipsnade
> Thank you for repsonse to my post concerning the world's
> most popular game. While my views do no agree with yours,
> I did did point out that they arise from my not being exposed
> to football as a child.
OK, I haven't played in ages, so I apologize if the rules have changed or I
remember incorrectly, but here's nmy understanding iof the rules.
> What I meant to say there are prohibitions about
> to whom and to where the ball can be passed.
No, there are prohibitions on where a player may be when he isn't playing
the ball.
> IIRC, an offensive player can be no nearer the goal than any
> defensive player, unless he is in possession of the ball.
The rule is not about to whom you can pass the ball, but on the position of
the offensive player, and there must be at least two defenders between yuo
and the goal, not _all_ of the defensive playrs.
In the past, just _being_ there was enough to cause a free kick, I think
this has now been amended such that its only if you are in this position and
you touch the ball that it's actually a foul, but I'm not sure, it may just
that, as in the past, the refs only bothered calling offside when the player
was near the ball.
> If true, this shackles offensive players' movements.
> A player can not dart pass a defender, recieve a pass, and then attmept
to score.
Yes, they can. They must, however, start "on side" before the ball is
released (kicked) by the passing player, then they may "follow" the ball
offside. What they can't do is be off-side when the ball is kicked and then
play the ball.
> Any striker, no matter how good, is forced to dribble
> his way past a succession of glue footed
> defenders, no matter how bad.
If he's in position, a maximum of two, and usually only one, defender(s)
actually need to be beaten. It will be unusual that both of the defenders an
attacker is keeping between him and the goal are on same side of the field,
and if they are, rather than beating them he should just pass to the person
the other wing who will then have no opponents, but can still be on-side.
> The brilliance of his play is constantly diluted by the
> mediocraty of those around him. Considering this, it's
> amazing he ever scores at all.
> Admittedly, my knowledge of footbal is pitifully weak,
> but is my example above wrong?
Yes, it's not a rule about _passing_ the ball, it's a rule about the
positiion of the offensive player. This is known as the "offside" rule, and
originally you could be ruled offside if there was less than two players
between you and the goalie, whether you had the ball or not.
Yes, this means a team may pull all their defenders up to the half way line
preventing your players from entering their half, but in practice it's very
dangerous "playing" the offside rule, because if you pull your defenders
forward too far, they can't get back fast enough when there is a
breakthrough (and there will always be a breakthrough at some time).
The major reason the rule was introduced was to make the game more
interesting, as without it, a couple of attackers would _always_ sit up
eight by the goalie, waiting for the ball to be kicked up there, and the
game degenerated into a series of very long kicks followed by a goal shoot.
There was no point in tactical play, dribbling, or building up an attack,
because getting the ball near the oppositions goal as quickly as possible
and shooting was all that was important.
Frankie.
> "You macho philistine! Why is it that only _scoring_ is exciting to
> you ?"
>
> Mr. Pitt, such insults are beneath you.
Don't worry, I
> I believe I did mention a that a scoreless game in baseball would
> involve the a very exciting "duel" between two pitchers. If I had been
> exposed to football as a child, the same defensive struggle
> between football
> sides would be equally exciting.
> In my defense, I should mention that I much prefer low scoring,
> defensive games in American football too. However, I prefer basball to
> American football. Out football combines the two worst features of our
> culture; violence and committee meetings.
> I did notice that you made no mention of football's asinine way to
> settle tie games in your passionate defense of the game to me. Do you
> prefer a kicking contest to the thrilling game play you wrote about?
> As for my unhealthy interest in "scoring", it stems from a
> life time of failures in the pusuit of women, and I'd thank you not to
mention it.
>
>
> Larsen
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3745
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Traveller-digest Monday, February 26 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3746
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
2300AD Web Ring?
Re: 2300AD Web Ring?
Re: 2300AD Web Ring?
Waaay OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot...
RE: world series
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
RE: Allen Steele
RE: 2300AD Web Ring?
New Traveller software project
Re: More KB3 Questions
Re: More KB3 Questions
Re: More KB3 Questions
Re: More KB3 Examples
Re: More KB3 Questions
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 20:05:55 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Press release:
Murish Arms, div of CRH Industries, LIC
We wish to appolgise to our customers. After seeing our competitors ad
here last week we realized that our marketing department was not doing
thier job and have been fired (literally).
We have 2 lines of Sniper rifles available. Please check out our
offerings. We believe that no sniper rifle can be adiquitely silenced
so instead of trying to accomplish the impossible we have decided that
it is better to get the bullet to the target long before he can hear it.
Our light sniper rifle has a muzzle velocity of 942m/s and the heavy
sniper rifle has a muzzle velocity of 951m/s accompishes this
objective. Are armored troops causing you problems? Our 12mm and 15mm
sniper rifles are guaranteed to hole Sylean surplus battledress (Central
Supply Catolog, pg 19: Battledress-11). These weapons are also
effective vrs. light vehicles found near battlefields and some armored
limos.
12mm ETC Light Sniper rifle.
This rifle uses a bullpup design to maximize barrel length,
semi-automatic mechinism, electronic sights, muzzle break with recoil
compensation, shock absorbing stock, and bipod.
Mass 10.91kg
Range (basic): 312 meters
5 round box magizine.
Slug damage: 14
Recoil: 1
Flash: 2
15mm ETC Heavy Sniper Rifle:
This rifle uses a bullpup design to maximize barrel length,
semi-automatic mechinism, electronic sights, muzzle break, and bipod.
Mass 17.04kg
Range (basic): 358 meters
5 round box magizine.
Slug damage: 16
Recoil: 2
Flash: 2
Carrying case for 15mm sniper rifle: Volume: .2m^3. Mass: 53kg (apparent
loaded weight 2kg). Cost: 500Cr.
Carrying case includes velvet/foam shock protection for weapon, space
for 10 clips, space for 3 boxes (50rnd ea) of ammunition, CG and battery
power for 48 hr and clip recharge.
Convenient switch to conserve battery power. Case has an armor value of
4.
We also currently have 2 antique reproductions on our reproductions page
of the catolog for those who wish to appear to be antique collectors.
Both of these weapons are 12.7mm caliber weapons from the early
Interstellar War period.
See our sample catolog at
http://home1.gte.net/res04u7k/Traveller/
Charles H
President CRH Industries, LIC
PS: We hope to increase the catolog to a full product line. If you
don't see what you want please contact us.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:34:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Bernie McGeehan <einreb62@yahoo.com>
Subject: 2300AD Web Ring?
I went to look up something there & it was gone???
Yahoo strikes again? There is a page that has a
calculator for determining ship's spin to generate
centrifical force...very handy thing...anyone know it
& have the URL? Damn Yahoo!
=====
"I don't know much about what I like, but I do know Art." me @ the Rijksmuseum, Amsterdam (Terra/Sol 3)http://prattfall.tripod.com/index.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:14:20 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: 2300AD Web Ring?
>I went to look up something there & it was gone???
>Yahoo strikes again? There is a page that has a
>calculator for determining ship's spin to generate
>centrifical force...very handy thing...anyone know it
>& have the URL? Damn Yahoo!
Ask and ye shall receive. Unless there are two 2300AD-related rotational
habitat calculators out there, you're looking for:
http://www.bumply.com/2300/astro.htm
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:27:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Bernie McGeehan <einreb62@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 2300AD Web Ring?
That's the one! thank you
>
> Ask and ye shall receive. Unless there are two
> 2300AD-related rotational
> habitat calculators out there, you're looking for:
>
> http://www.bumply.com/2300/astro.htm
>
> Cheers,
> Paul Drye
>
>
_________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
> http://www.hotmail.com.
>
=====
"I don't know much about what I like, but I do know Art." me @ the Rijksmuseum, Amsterdam (Terra/Sol 3)http://prattfall.tripod.com/index.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:15:26 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Waaay OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot...
Dear Folks -
Glenn Goffin wrote:
>>Subject: Waaay OT: ARPC Spring Full-Auto Shoot...
>
>Looking good for me. My brother is a possible.
A possible what? Target?
- - Hyphen
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:12:27 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: world series
Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> On 25 Feb 2001, at 1:11, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:
>
> > Frank, let me disassociate myself from Larson's comments in this
> > case. This American thinks that Soccer, as we call it here, is a
> > fine game filled with strategy and drama and played by skilled
> > athletes. I enjoy Aussie football and Rugby when I get a chance to
> > see them, too. If I had seen more than a few seconds of cricket I'm
> > sure I'd judge it a fine game as well. <g>
>
> We call it soccer here, too (usually, that is). Football or
> "footie" means rugby.
Speak for yourself.
When I say "football" I mean football, not that johnny-come-lately game that
was invented by a bunch of idiots at Rugby who didn't understand the "no
hands" rule of _foot_ball.
<grin>
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:17:44 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
On 25 Feb 2001, at 20:05, Charles R Hensley wrote:
> Press release:
> Murish Arms, div of CRH Industries, LIC
>
> We wish to appolgise to our customers. After seeing our competitors ad
> here last week we realized that our marketing department was not doing
> thier job and have been fired (literally).
>
> We have 2 lines of Sniper rifles available. Please check out our
> offerings. We believe that no sniper rifle can be adiquitely silenced
> so instead of trying to accomplish the impossible we have decided that
> it is better to get the bullet to the target long before he can hear it.
> Our light sniper rifle has a muzzle velocity of 942m/s and the heavy
> sniper rifle has a muzzle velocity of 951m/s accompishes this
> objective. Are armored troops causing you problems? Our 12mm and 15mm
> sniper rifles are guaranteed to hole Sylean surplus battledress (Central
> Supply Catolog, pg 19: Battledress-11). These weapons are also
> effective vrs. light vehicles found near battlefields and some armored
> limos.
Hah. Try a real gun. :) I don't believe in that crappy ETC stuff, not when you
can have a muzzle velocity of 6000 m/s with a gauss weapon. Better living
through magnetism, I say/
This was designed a couple of years back as the TL-14 version of a TL-13
Solomani weapon I whipped up. It uses the maximum possible velocity, and a 5mm
dart because anything bigger would've given more than 300m as the short range,
as thus been a waste. It was designed using FFS1 for TNE. If my understanding
of FFS2 is correct (I don't own it) the damage should by multiplied by 1.43 to
get T4 figures (giving about a 13 for the dart).
RGSL-14 Sniper Rifle
Weapon Details
Tech Level: 14
Ammo : 5x25mm/60 gauss dart
Muzzle Energy: 17640 J
Weapon Length: 108.5 cm, 88.5 cm folded
Weapon Weight: 15.83 kg loaded, 13.538 kg empty, with no magazine
Weapon Price: 3412 Cr
Magazine Weight: 2.292 kg loaded, 2.272 kg empty
Magazine Price: Cr5 (20-round box)
Ammo Price: Cr0.02 (Dart), Cr0.04 (HE, Tranq), Cr0.06 (HEAP)
Ammo Weight: 0.98 grams per round
Features: Plastic stock, electronic sight, bipod, folding shock absorber,
gyroscopic compensator
Recoil
Ammo ROF Dam Pen Bulk Mag SS Burst SR
5x25mm Dart SA5 9 1-2-4 7 20 1 - 230 (213)
w/ Bipod SA5 9 1-2-4 7 20 0 - 300 (276)
5x25mm HE SA5 9 Nil 7 20 1 - 170 (159)
w/ Bipod SA5 9 Nil 7 20 0 - 220 (207)
5x25mm HEAP SA5 9 2-2-2 7 20 1 - 170 (159)
w/ Bipod SA5 9 2-2-2 7 20 0 - 220 (207)
5x25mm Tranq SA5 -1* Nil 7 20 1 - 30 (30)
w/ Bipod SA5 -1* Nil 7 20 0 - 30 (30)
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:19:45 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> In mail you write:
> > The way to play baseball or another sport on the interstellar
> > level would be to get a surplus K'Kree ship that is just one
> > big compartment, set up that compartment as a playing field,
> > and jump it around between planets. The ship would maintain
> > a constant standard gravity, pressure, etc.
> > If the sport in question is popular enough you might even be able
> > to justify the costs but it might be better to gloss over the economics
> > involved.
> It'd be much simpler to either build an orbital station, or even build
> stadium with pressure and gravity control, and let the players travel
> by regular ships.
1) What about practice space?
2) That would restrict the league to worlds that could afford their
own stadiums, unless sponsors pay for this sort of thing. A traveling
stadium, even though much more expensive as a whole, might impose
fewer costs on sports league member worlds.
OTOH maybe worlds don't have anything to do with it and the teams
are sponsored by companies. Instead of the 'Regina Drop Commando's'
versus the 'Durendal Vikings' maybe it should be the 'Instellarms
Commando's' versus the 'Susag Drug Warriors'. If the team is sponsored
by the company then the ship comes out of the ad budget.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:56:08 -0500
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: RE: Allen Steele
Fellow 'Listers
Kiri brings up one of my favorite hard SF authors. Allen Steele's writing is
gritty, hard-edged, realistic, funny, and flavors my Traveller Universe
throughout. I have used several of his stories and novels for campaigns, and
because I love his characters, I use them frequently as NPCs and PCs. Steele
postulates that the "Final Frontier" will be conquered not by spacemen in
regulation uniforms, popping food caplets and listening to Strauss waltzes,
but by construction workers called beamjacks and moondogs, truck drivers,
pilots, Native Americans, pot-smokers, smugglers, corporate tools, and in
one very memorable instance, a biker named Virgin Bruce and a shrimp
fisherman named Popeye. He assumes that people will go into space not
because of some idealistic crusade, but because there's a high-risk job to
do that pays well and can be really monotonous at times. I highly commend
this author's work to the members of the list; it will change the way you
look at government and commercially-sponsored manned spaceflight, and it
will change your Traveller Universe for the better.
Jeff
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:41:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Allen Steele
I have just started reading his stuff and I really like it. Anyone else
like it, have thoughts on its relevance to Traveller, etc?
Kiri
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:36:09 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <tvickers@conroe.isd.tenet.edu>
Subject: RE: 2300AD Web Ring?
The 2300 Ring is dead due to the ring manager's growing frustrations with
yahoo. Can't blame him.
http://members.tripod.com/AD2300/links.htm
This should have all the old webring links here.
I tried to get them all right.
Thomas
______________________________________________
And the moral of the story is to never lean on the weird. Or they will chop
your head off. And perverts will eat your brains.
H.S. Thompson
- -----Original Message-----
From: traveller@lists.ient.com [mailto:traveller@lists.ient.com]
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 9:27 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: 2300AD Web Ring?
That's the one! thank you
>>
>> Ask and ye shall receive. Unless there are two
>> 2300AD-related rotational
>> habitat calculators out there, you're looking for:
>>
>> http://www.bumply.com/2300/astro.htm
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Paul Drye
>>
>>
_________________________________________________________________________
>> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at
>> http://www.hotmail.com.
>>
=====
"I don't know much about what I like, but I do know Art." me @ the
Rijksmuseum,
Amsterdam (Terra/Sol 3)http://prattfall.tripod.com/index.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:59:21 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: New Traveller software project
Okay, I'm back at my studies and busy with my maintaince of HGS. But
this semester I'm learning yet another language (looks around furtively and
whispers "Visual Basic" hoping no "real" programmers hear) and I found
with Delphi that I learnt far more from creating HGS than any of the
lessons, so I've decided to do a small project for VB. So the question is,
what would people like?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 02:04:27 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: More KB3 Questions
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> When you say "reduce your difficulty" do you also imply "use less dice on
> the Task Throw - it gives more chance of Greater Success"?
No. "Reduce Difficulty" means to use a negative modifier to the difficulty
throw.
Thus, if Jacks (Str-5) were to make an Average attribute check, the roll would
be:
Jacks rolls 1D (the E-Die) vs the GM's Average difficulty throw of 2D - 5.
See...the "5" for Jacks' Str reduces the difficulty. It makes it easier for
Jacks to accomplish the task, and it makes it more likely that Jacks will throw
Greater Success.
Kenneth.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 02:04:24 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: More KB3 Questions
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> Dear Kenneth -
>
> On e more thing I forgot to ask - when will the final version be written
> up, and are you planning to put it on the Web as well as the TML?
The KB3 Task system is just about finished. The problem, though, is
three-fold.
(1) I don't have it written up in any clear manner (although it's a simple
system--just needs several words to explain all the outcomes of a single
dice throw).
(2) Me and my players have switched gears (as we are prone to do). We were
re-starting our Traveller campaign, but, instead, we've picked up the old
James Bond RPG (and having a BLAST! That's a fun frickin' game!).
(3) Since we did not play Traveller (we may in the future), KB3 did not get
play tested. Although I'm very confident that it is a good system and that
it's pretty much completed, I'm also a big believer in play testing. I know
the statistics are good with KB3, but it takes a few good game sessions to
make sure there is nothing "awkward" or "wrong" with a game system's logic.
I'd like to play-test KB3 before I release it to the public, and, to be
honest, I'm not sure when my group will get around to playing Traveller
again.
We're having such a good time with our Bond game, it may be some time.
Than again...you never know...we could all of a sudden tire from Bond and
pick Traveller up again, right where we left off.
If you have other questions about KB3, I'll be glad to answer them. I don't
have the system all written up in a short, concise manner (Hemmingway was
right when he said he sometimes did not have enough time to write things
"short"), but I am confident that it is a complete, finished system (with
the provisions listed above).
If you want me to show you how to drop KB3 into your game, I will. You'll
have to tell me which Traveller system of rules you are using, and I'll show
you how best to use KB3.
Thanks,
Kenneth.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 02:04:32 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: More KB3 Questions
OK, last example....
Here's the KB3 difficulty chart for easy reference.
Difficulty Table
- -----------------------------
3+ or 1D Easy
7+ or 2D Average
11+ or 3D Difficult
15+ or 4D Formidable
19+ or 5D Staggering
23+ or 6D Impossible
And, here's the Combat Chart
Fire Combat Difficulty Table....
- ------------------------------------
1D Easy Contact 0-3m
2D Average V. Short 4-15m
3D Difficult Short 16-45m
4D Formidable Medium 46-150m
5D Staggering Long 151-450m
6D Impossible V. Long 451-1500m
(Information in the previous e-mail is necessary to follow some of these
examples--you'll need to know what the KB3 skill options do and what the E-Die
does.)
KB3 EXAMPLE #4
Ren (Str 6, Brawling-4) is fighting Perrol (Str 10, Brawling-2) in hand to hand
combat. In this case, you don't use the task chart. The defender rolls his
skill for the difficulty.
So...
Ren decides to throw most of what he's got at Perrol--but he'll use 1 point to
reduce Perrol's total as a skill option. Ren will throw 4D.
Perrol is defending the blow (Ren will attack, and then Perrol will throw to
defend himself....then it will be Perrol's turn to attack, and Ren will have to
defend himself). And, Perrol decides that he needs everything to defend
himself. He will use no skill options, throwing 3D in his defense.
So, the throw is...
Ren throws 4D vs Perrol's 3D - 1.
Ren throws, getting a total of "9". Perrol throws, subtracts the "1", and gets
a total of "10".
Perrol has defended the blow! And, not only that, but Perrol has rolled
Greater Success with his defense roll, so the GM rules that Perrol actually
damaged Ren while defending himself. 1D damage is rolled on Ren.
Now, it's Perrol's turn to act in the round....
Here were the possible outcomes for Perrol, the defender in this fight.
Roll
- ----
0 Automatic Success for Ren. Damage rolled on Perrol.
- --- Greater Failure on defense not possible on this particular roll (but
could be possible if Ren had rolled higher).
1-9 Regular Failure (ties go to the person attempting the task--which in this
case was Ren).
10 Greater Success only possible on a "10"
11-19 Regular Success for Perrol.
20+ Marginal Success for Perrol.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 02:04:36 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: More KB3 Examples
Here's a third example for David and you guys following the KB3 task system
thread.
Here's the KB3 difficulty chart for easy reference.
Difficulty Table
- -----------------------------
3+ or 1D Easy
7+ or 2D Average
11+ or 3D Difficult
15+ or 4D Formidable
19+ or 5D Staggering
23+ or 6D Impossible
And, here's the Combat Chart
Fire Combat Difficulty Table....
- ------------------------------------
1D Easy Contact 0-3m
2D Average V. Short 4-15m
3D Difficult Short 16-45m
4D Formidable Medium 46-150m
5D Staggering Long 151-450m
6D Impossible V. Long 451-1500m
(Information in the previous e-mail is necessary to follow some of these
examples--you'll need to know what the KB3 skill options do and what the E-Die
does.)
KB3 EXAMPLE #3
Vaan Preygor (Str 8, Dex 5) is standing on a ledge when an explosion rocks the
area nearby. The GM rules that Vaan may be pushed back, over the ledge, and
into the pit from the blast of the explosion.
The GM rules that this is an attribute check to resist the blast and stay on
his feet, and the GM says that Vaan can use either his Str or his Dex
(whichever is higher) to make the check.
As for the difficulty of the throw, the GM is not going to use the standard
task difficulties above. Instead, he's going to use the strength of the
blast--by rolling damage done by the blast. At this range, the blast will do
3D damage.
Vaan does not have a skill to help him stay on his feet (I'd let him use
Athletics, if he had the skill, in my game), so this is a Default skill roll.
Vaan can attempt it at 1D (the E-Die). And, since this is an attribute check,
a -8 modifier will be applied to the difficulty throw.
So, the throw is:
Vaan's 1D vs 3D-8.
Vaan throws 1D and gets a "5".
The GM throws 3D and gets a "1" on the E-Die. All odd die are removed from the
total. The remaining die shows a "4", and this is reduced by 8 points (because
it is an attribute throw).
The difficulty actually is reduced to 0....so it is an Automatic Success for
Vaan to stay on his feet and keep from being blown over the side of the ledge.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 02:04:41 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: More KB3 Questions
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> So, in the following cases:
> > - when a successful Task Throw is _equal_ to Diff Throw + Stat, is it
> >standard or marginal success?
> > - when a failed Task Throw is _equal_ to Diff Throw - Stat, is it a
> >regular or greater failure?
>
> ...the answers are "standard success" and "regular failure", respectively?
I see where you are finding confusion. Let me clear this up for you.
Whenever you roll a success, and your success roll is equal to or less than the
Difficulty + Stat, then you've got a regular Success.
So, if Jimmy has a Dex-9, Pistol-2, and he throws his 3D6 getting a total of
7.....and the difficulty throw is a total of 5, this is a regular Success.
Why?
Because (A) Jimmy's task throw was higher than the difficulty throw (his throw
of 7 beat the difficulty throw of 5) AND the total of 7 IS LESS THAN the
difficulty plus his stat.
Regular Success will occur whenever the task throw falls in the range of
difficulty plus stat. In this case, Jimmy's regular success range is 5-14.
Any roll that falls within that range (and is a successful roll because it was
higher than the difficulty) is a regular Success.
Any successful task roll that is ABOVE that range is a Marginal Success.
Now...
Where you're getting confused is in defining Greater Success rolls (these are
like rolling natural 20's in the D&D game--or all "1's" for Spectacular Success
in the T4 rules set).
The Greater Success range can be A PART of the regular Success range (but not
necessarily so--Greater Success could also be not possible on a particular
roll).
Greater Success occurs anytime a successful roll is equal to or less than a
character's Stat. This means that (A) the roll has to be successful (by being
higher than the difficulty roll) and (B) it has to be lower than the Stat AT
THE SAME TIME.
In the roll above (on that particular stat), Jimmy's possible outcomes would
look like this: (remember that Jimmy has Dex-9, Pistol-2. his roll was 7.
and the difficulty was 5)
*Greater Failure is not possible on this roll because Jimmy cannot roll lower
than 5 - 7. All Failures will be regular Failures on this roll.
*Any total that is 0-4 will be a regular Failure.
*Any total that is 5-9 will be a Greater Success.
*Any total that is 10+ will be a Marginal Success.
Let me give you a couple more examples of KB3. Remember that it is a simple
system. You roll for the task roll once, and you roll for difficulty. After
that, you're just comparing totals (you're not making any other dice rolls, and
all of these outcomes are possible on the single task attempt--a single roll
for the player--and a single roll for the GM).
Here's the Difficulty Chart for easy reference when following the examples
below.
Difficulty Table
- -----------------------------
3+ or 1D Easy
7+ or 2D Average
11+ or 3D Difficult
15+ or 4D Formidable
19+ or 5D Staggering
23+ or 6D Impossible
KB3 EXAMPLE #1:
Piter has Piloting-3, Edu 10. He attempts to dock with an abandoned
spacecraft the crew found. The GM rules this is an Easy task for Piter to do.
Piter is up against 1D difficulty, and he could roll 4D if he wanted to. But,
that would be overkill on the task (and it woud skew his results torwards
Marginal Success), so Piter chooses to use a skill option.
What's a skill option?
A skill option allows you to use your character's skill level for one of three
things.
(A) You can use your skills to add dice to the task throw. You already get to
throw 1D (the E-Die). Using this option will allow you to throw 2D or more).
So Piter could throw 1D (just the E-Die), and use his 3 points of skill in
Piloting for one of the other options. Or, he could max out his throw, using
all his skill points to add dice to the throw--in this case he would throw 4D
on his attempt. Or, he could use some other combination.
(B) You can use your skills to REDUCE your difficulty--making it EASIER for
you to achieve success. So, Piter could throw 1D on the task and apply a
penalty of -3 to the difficulty throw, reducing Piter's difficulty (making it
more likely that Piter will succeed on the throw). Or, he could do some
combination with the other skill options.
(C), And, lastly, you can use your skills to INCREASE your governing stat for
measuring purposes. If it was VERY important to Piter to throw GREATER SUCCESS
on his Piloting task, he might use his 3 points of skill to increase his stat
to 13 (meaning that any successful throw of 13 or less is a Greater Success
rather than a successful throw of 10 or less)...or some other combination with
the other two skill options.
On this throw, since the difficulty is so low (only 1D), Piter decides to throw
2D (his E-Die and 1 point of skill), using his other 2 points as a skill option
to reduce the difficulty.
So, the throw will be...
...Piter will throw 2D vs the GM's throw of 1D-2.
Did you follow all of that?
If you've got it, let's look at a possible result of this throw. Piter throws
his task. His total is 7. The GM throws, and the 1D turns out to be a "6",
which means (since it is the E-Die) that it is doubled to a total of "12".
But, then we subtract the -2 modifier imposed by Piter's skill option.
In the end, Piter's roll is 7, and the difficulty throw is 10. Piter rolled a
regular Failure. The ship didn't line up, and he'll have to circle around and
try it again (on a Greater Failure, the GM may have said the ship was damaged
in the attempt!)
On this roll, these results were possible:
Roll
- ----
0 Automatic Failure could occur if the E-Die reduces Piter's roll to "0".
Automatic Failure usually means a Mishap or Fumble occured.
- --- Greater Failure not possible on this throw (10 - 10 = 0).
1-9 Regular Failure range.
10 Greater Success possible only on a 10 (successful throw that is less than
or equal to the governing stat).
11-20 Regular Success range.
21+ Marginal Success range.
This e-mail is getting long, so I'll post some more examples in another post.
Kenneth.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3746
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Traveller-digest Monday, February 26 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3747
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: More KB3 Examples
Re: TML FAQ, HGDSS, FFS Equations and Sign-Off
RE: 2300AD Web Ring?
RE: world series
RE: New Traveller software project
RealLife(tm) Kinetic Kill Railguns
RE: System defenses
RE: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long
Re: RE: 2300AD Web Ring?
RE: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
Re: New Traveller software project
RE: New Traveller software project
RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Re: What could go wrong?
RE : Indefinite Life Span
RE: world series
Re: RE : Indefinite Life Span
Re: RE : Indefinite Life Span
RE: [Website Review]
Re: MST3K
writing programs..
Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 02:04:47 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: More KB3 Examples
I am posting more KB3 examples of task throws here for David (and anyone else
following this thread). The other e-mail was getting a little too long winded.
Here's the KB3 difficulty chart for easy reference.
Difficulty Table
- -----------------------------
3+ or 1D Easy
7+ or 2D Average
11+ or 3D Difficult
15+ or 4D Formidable
19+ or 5D Staggering
23+ or 6D Impossible
And, here's the Combat Chart
Fire Combat Difficulty Table....
- ------------------------------------
1D Easy Contact 0-3m
2D Average V. Short 4-15m
3D Difficult Short 16-45m
4D Formidable Medium 46-150m
5D Staggering Long 151-450m
6D Impossible V. Long 451-1500m
And, here's additional examples to follow, if you're learning KB3.
(Information in the previous e-mail is necessary to follow some of these
examples--you'll need to know what the KB3 skill options do and what the E-Die
does.)
KB EXAMPLE #2
John (Dex-4, Pistol-4) is shooting at a boarder standing 10m away (It's an
Average task--see combat chart above).
John knows that there is little hope of throwing Greater Success on his
shot--(one of the things the KB3 system does really, really well is penalize
characters with low stats in this manner--as they should be penalized! Stat's
are important! And, low stats should concern players!)
So, John decides use all but one skill point to increase the number of dice he
throws and thus ensure he hits--regardless if it is a regular Success or a
Marginal Success. He'll use the remaining point of skill to increase his Stat,
increasing his ranges for Greater and regular Success.
Having made these decisions about the throw, John throws 4D (and his Dex is
considered a 5 for measuring purposes). A "1" on the E-Die pops up, so every
odd number die is not counted in the throw. John's total is "4".
The GM throws the 2D difficulty, resulting in a total of "3".
John hits! But, believe it or not, he got really, really lucky and rolled
Greater Success! The GM allows him to throw an extra die of damage (because he
threw Greater Success).
The possible outcomes on this throw are:
Roll
- ----
0 Automatic Failure could occur if the E-Die reduced John's task roll to
"0". Automatic Failure usually means a Fumble or Mishap occurred.
- --- Greater Failure is not possible.
1-2 Regular Failure results in this range.
3-5 Greater Success results in this range.
6+ Marginal Success results in this range.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:47:37 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: TML FAQ, HGDSS, FFS Equations and Sign-Off
"Stuart C. Squibb" wrote:
> Real Life has meant that I have been unable to devote any
> significant time to traveller over the last 12 months or so. As a
> result of this I have taken the decision to end my various
> traveller mailing-list subscriptions and take down my Traveller
> web site.
<snip>
> http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller
:-(
It's (almost) always a sad thing when people leave us for one reason and
another.
> Keep the Flame,
We will. Come back to visit us some day.
Good bye... for now.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:52:45 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: 2300AD Web Ring?
On 25 Feb 2001, at 22:36, Thomas Vickers wrote:
>
> The 2300 Ring is dead due to the ring manager's growing frustrations with
> yahoo. Can't blame him.
>
> http://members.tripod.com/AD2300/links.htm
> This should have all the old webring links here.
> I tried to get them all right.
Um. Your site seems to list them by their webring id's, so the links don't
work. :(
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:52:45 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: world series
On 26 Feb 2001, at 17:12, Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> Rupert Boleyn wrote :
> > On 25 Feb 2001, at 1:11, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:
> >
> > > Frank, let me disassociate myself from Larson's comments in this
> > > case. This American thinks that Soccer, as we call it here, is a
> > > fine game filled with strategy and drama and played by skilled
> > > athletes. I enjoy Aussie football and Rugby when I get a chance to
> > > see them, too. If I had seen more than a few seconds of cricket I'm
> > > sure I'd judge it a fine game as well. <g>
> >
> > We call it soccer here, too (usually, that is). Football or
> > "footie" means rugby.
>
> Speak for yourself.
>
> When I say "football" I mean football, not that johnny-come-lately game that was
> invented by a bunch of idiots at Rugby who didn't understand the "no hands" rule
> of _foot_ball. <grin>
It's people like you who caused that "usually" to be inserted. :) I generally
talk about "soccer" and "rugby" to avoid confusion.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:37:14 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> Okay, I'm back at my studies and busy with my maintaince of HGS.
> But this semester I'm learning yet another language (looks around
> furtively and whispers "Visual Basic" hoping no "real" programmers
> hear) and I found with Delphi that I learnt far more from creating
> HGS than any of the lessons, so I've decided to do a small project
> for VB. So the question is, what would people like?
My vote is for an MT vehicle creator ... as easy as Infini-V but
for the PC ... with the Wet Navy and Low Tech add-ons ... and
please please please with the COACC stuff.
(So far, no one seems to have noticed that the design of fighter
aircraft on my Yori Landgrab is broken. Shh, don't tell anyone!)
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 07:08:58 -0600
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net>
Subject: RealLife(tm) Kinetic Kill Railguns
Found the following on the UniSci site. Thought the last
line was kinda interesting. The full story can be found
at:
http://unisci.com/stories/20011/0226012.htm
Fastest Gun In The West Outdoes Nuclear Explosion
A magnetic field that accelerates pellets faster than
anything except a
nuclear explosion has been developed experimentally at the
Department of
Energy's Sandia National Laboratories.
The machine that generates the field has been jokingly
dubbed "the fastest
gun in the West," but the description is an understatement..
..The propulsion speed of 20 km/sec -- almost three times
that necessary to
escape the gravitational pull of the Earth (about 7 km/sec)
- -- would send
material from New York to Boston in half a minute, and from
Albuquerque to
Santa Fe in a few seconds. A rifle bullet is typically
propelled at 1 km/sec.
The machine, Sandia's Z accelerator, currently propels
dime-sized pellets
called flyer plates only a few hundred millimeters to gain
information on the
effect of high-velocity impacts..
..The technique also has potential as a hypervelocity
"kinetic kill" weapon
that, emanating from a lighter, more mobile source than the
huge Z
machine, still could strike disabling blows through an
adversary's heavy
armor. These more mobile sources are already in
development...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:17:15 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: System defenses
Alan Bradley wrote:
> I use a factionalised model of the Ine Givar, particularly after
> the 5FW,
<snip>
> Hmm. A better analogy for the Ine Givar might be the PLO. But
> that's a nationalist movement, which doesn't quite fit the IG.
> Perhaps it might be better to think of them as being the
> equivalent of some of the factions within the PLO.
<snip>
> If the IG are complete puppets of the Zhodani, they will, of
> course, fail.
IMTU the IG were always factionalised. This is because the IG
would exploit local dissention (which is often nationalistic)
when recruiting. Thus the IG could be seen as an alliance of
local pro-nationalistic movements (including both insurrectionist
militias and terrorists) rather than a coherant force. Zhodani
involvement is limited primarily to covert aid (a bit like the
French in the US Independance War).
(But then IMTU the IG are not like AMV's description ... mine is
much smaller, mainly operating in just the coreward half of the
Spinward Marches. I liked AMV's description, it just didn't fit
my view.)
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:31:15 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: UK consumer war (was: Memory) ... rant, long
Ethan Henry wrote:
> Someone wrote:
> > This is a twisted trade war going on right now between
> > manufacturers and UK consumers.
>
> Ah-ha. Wierd. How on earth does something like this perpetuate
> itself? You would think this kind of thing would self-correct
> in the supposedly "free market". I don't see any external factors
> making a UK operation any intrinsically more expensive than any
> other...
Its only with the relatively recent arrival of the internet that
the UK public have widespread access to the "gray market".
Before now this access was limited and so corporations could more
or less set prices how they like. It was probably seeing the
explosion of international sales in CDs that prompted the
inclusion of region coding on DVDs (which IIRC delayed the public
launch of the DVD format by a year). The US government's pro-
crime stance on encryption technology didn't help in the initial
formation of trust between consumer and vendor on the internet
either.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:01:46 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <tvickers@conroe.isd.tenet.edu>
Subject: Re: RE: 2300AD Web Ring?
Thanks for the warning.
So much for updating my webpage in the wee hours of the morning.
I wil have the real links page up tonight.
I don't even think I sent the correct html home from work before I did the
update.
Stupid boy.
TV
_______________________________________
We're not just going th shoot the bastards. We are going to cut out their
living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. WE are going to
murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel.
George C. Scott (Patton)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 19:47:27 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Steve
> (Bloo) Daniels
> Sent: 23 February 2001 16:08
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
>
> The original poster said that in the U.S. the phrase "Dungeons
> & Dragons" is protected by US copyright law, but is protected
> by trademark law (and not copyright law) in Europe.
>
> That statement is incorrect.
>
I am surprised to hear that - although I admit that I got the quote
from a magazine, not a legal ruling. Could you let me know what the
situation actually is?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:54:46 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
Hello Andrew,
Don't feel like you are in the Minority with Visual Basic. I've been
learning to use Visual Basic for my own FAR TRADER project, and once I
either get bored with FAR TRADER, or I finish getting the minimal aspects I
wanted for the program, I will likely start looking at the idea of creating
a FIRST IN program as well. Right now, I'm working on the hexagon creation
problem. I've already created a program to test the concept of distance
calculations based on a starting hex ID and an Ending Hex id. It's not
pretty programming <grin>, but it is successful at what it was intended to
do...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:08:51 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
I would like to see a merchant program. One where i give it a bit of info on
the world (ie.. tech level industrial ect..) and it shoots back what cargos
are available, cost of cargo (or if the cargo owner is just paying
shipping), and size of cargos.
something like that would be good.
anyway
Hasta
- -----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance [mailto:a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz]
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 9:59 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: New Traveller software project
Okay, I'm back at my studies and busy with my maintaince of HGS. But
this semester I'm learning yet another language (looks around furtively and
whispers "Visual Basic" hoping no "real" programmers hear) and I found
with Delphi that I learnt far more from creating HGS than any of the
lessons, so I've decided to do a small project for VB. So the question is,
what would people like?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:20:57 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
At 15:44 -0500 18/2/01, "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:
>Larsen (aka Mr. Whipsnade) wrote:
> > Thank you so much for filling in for my spotty memory. I fear my
> >little grey cells are retiring well before the rest of my body. (sigh) The
> >title "Flashing Blades" didn't ring a bell with me though. Of course it
>has
> >been 20+ years and there is my aforementioned weary grey cells.
>
>Are you thinking of, perhaps, "En Garde"? I've only heard mention of it,
>I've never seen it or held it or anything, but it seems to be pretty close
>to what you're describing.
Probably - AFAIK Small Furry Creatures Press still has a copy in
print. _En Garde_ was the GDW game. ISTR that _Flashing Blades_ is an
FGU game and may still be available directly from
http://www.fantasygamesunlimited.com/ probably at the original price!!
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:36:09 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: What could go wrong?
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:
>> Gee! WHY does that sound so realistic, with a detailed repair
>> diagnosis? Must have driven you NUTS 'till you found it,
>> Charles...
>
>
> Bruce and Terry, you know I'm reading all this don't you? <g> The old _Mae Lee_ already has some quirks and after all she's been through she might have acquired a few more. <g>
>
<Sigh>Of course I know you were reading it...I was half expecting to have some weird noise start up on the _Random Walk_ just to keep things interesting.
(The _Walk_ is the _Mae Lee's_ ships boat.)
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:30:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE : Indefinite Life Span
Rupert Boleyn writes:
>I'm fairly sure I saw a study of developed nations that showed that for a
given
>average income the country with the greatest wealth difference had the lowest
>life expectancy, even in the wealthy component of its population. However it
>occurs to me that if they used countries with very different violent crime
>rates this could make the difference.
Speaking as one who has had to sift through reams of statistics:
beware of spurious correlations. An example of a spurious
correlation is the one one between ice cream sales and incidence
of house fires. Such a correlation should not convince anyone that
reducing ice cream sales will reduce house fires. I don't know
what the deal is with regards to life expectencies in various Terran
societies, but I could imagine that in those countries where there
is a large gap between "rich" and "poor", education, diet and
medical resources tend to be lower than in other countries (even
for the "rich". Thus, the gap may be correlated with various
factors which are themselves correlated with life expectency.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 19:33:26 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: world series
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
< a lomg snip of very interesting material>
"The major reason the rule was introduced was to make the game more
interesting, as without it, a couple of attackers would _always_ sit up
eight by the goalie, waiting for the ball to be kicked up there, and the
game degenerated into a series of very long kicks followed by a goal shoot."
Mr. Pitt,
Thank you for your kind response to my last post. Thanks to the
education you gave me, I am even more firmly convinced that my inability to
enjoy football (soccer) is a cultural artifact from my upbringing, rather
than any rational opinion.
The situation you mention above would be excrutiating to watch as I
believe that some sort of "man to man" coverage could not work in football.
Both baseball and football still exist IMTU. Baseball because of my
irrational love for it and football for more rational and thought out
reasons. As one of the posters to this thread pointed out, football only
requires a ball and a sufficiently large and level place in which to play.
Even the second requirement can be modified to a great extant.
Where ever we humans manage to settle and raise families, the sight and
sounds of children happily booting a ball around will be seen. How could
football then not flourish?
ObTrav: So far we've dealt with Solomani or Solomani derived sports in our
musings. What sort of sports would the Vilani have played in their pre-jump
drive days and which ones did they take to the stars with them? Being
Vilani, any sort of team sports would a given. I'm certain that they'd play
something similar to football.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:36:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: RE : Indefinite Life Span
Ian Ferguson writes:
> Rupert Boleyn writes:
> >I'm fairly sure I saw a study of developed nations that showed that for a
> given
> >average income the country with the greatest wealth difference had the
> >lowest life expectancy, even in the wealthy component of its population.
> >However it occurs to me that if they used countries with very different
> >violent crime rates this could make the difference.
>
> Speaking as one who has had to sift through reams of statistics:
> beware of spurious correlations. An example of a spurious
> correlation is the one one between ice cream sales and incidence
> of house fires. Such a correlation should not convince anyone that
> reducing ice cream sales will reduce house fires. I don't know
> what the deal is with regards to life expectencies in various
> Terran societies, but I could imagine that in those countries
> where there is a large gap between "rich" and "poor", education,
> diet and medical resources tend to be lower than in other countries
> (even for the "rich". Thus, the gap may be correlated with various
> factors which are themselves correlated with life expectency.
Or, it may simply be a fairly obvious statistical effect having to do with
averaging.
If you assume that people who make $1,000 a year live to 50, $10,000 a year
live to 60, $100,000 a year live to 70 (crude examples):
Country A has everyone at 10,000 a year. Avg income 10k, avg livespan 60
Country B has 91% at 1,000 a year, 9% at 100k. Avg income 10k, avg livespan 51.8.
Perfectly statistically accurate, but fairly obviously non-meaningful.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:41:12 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: RE : Indefinite Life Span
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
"Perfectly statistically accurate, but fairly obviously
non-meaningful."
Mr. Jackson,
Well said, sir. As an engineer who must deal with statistics fairly
often, I am always the voice that gently reminds my colleagues and clients
not to place too much faith in them. The more the numbers are parsed, the
more iterations they are put through, the further they are divorced from
reality. Data can only be manipulated so far and after a certain point is
reached it becomes gobblygook.
A few decades ago, I came across the "fact" of left-handed people's
early mortality when compared to right-handed folks. Being left handed, I
simply chalked it up to the universe's uncaring nature and trudged on.
A few years afterwards, a nice young lady, who happened to be a
insurance company actuary, deigned to become romantically involved with me.
It's my usual "game plan" in these rare cases to engage the lady in
conversation about herself and her work; my reasoning being that while she
speaks she will not be looking at me and thus the relationship might last a
while longer. Alas, eventually they do get a good look at me in direct
sunlight and all is lost, but I digress.
I asked the young lady about left handed mortality and her response was
peals of laughter. At first I thought she had seen me, but instead she
explained how that erroneous conclusion had been reached.
It seems the fellow who had found the correlation failed to look into
it further and had published the data as fact. The original questionnaire
had simply asked the elderly respondents as to which hand they used now, but
not the hand they had used as a child.
Until a fairly recent date, most schools in the US "trained" left
handed children to write, and do other things, with their right hands.
Apparently it was believed this would make the children better "meat
puppets" for our assembly lines. Indeed, it was done to me for a year in
the 60s before the thinking behind it was changed. So most people in the US
beyond a certain age may have been born left handed, but were trained to be
right handed.
The original researcher simply believed that because so few of the
elderly were left handed, that left handed people died earlier. He had used
the numbers, but had failed to understand them.
Larsen
"There are three types of falsehoods; lies, damned lies, and
statistics." Mark Twain
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:12:24 -0000
From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Website Review]
Ok you asked. :)
Wow, love the intro page graphic and layout. Immediate add to my links page
just for that :)
Dedicated to Antony Farrell's two TNE campaigns, 1st one is a standard TNE
campaign 2nd is alternative tech and timeline. Lots of info here for TNE
players and others alike. plenty of interesting background to mine for all
Travellers.
Love the site, some interesting equipment (I esp. like the lower TL(5-10)
stuff). Interesting background, including the stargates.
I particularly like the Maps showing affects of Virus on starport ratings
(nice background for someone developing a pocket empire of their own).
No 'Whats New' link? This is usually the first link I hit when visiting a
new site.
Very good use of graphics btw, no slowdown and they all seem very crisp and
interesting
Tech stuff : All pages loaded smoothly and quickly, no sluggish graphics.
Colour scheme was clearly legible, though the red on black may become
tiresome over time. I was viewing using IE5.5, using 1024 by 768, but on
checking still very usable at 800 by 600.
Overall a great site.
- --------------start quote------------------------
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:11:32 -0000
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: [Website Review]
I have to admit I am a little disappointed, here I am about to do some more
work on my website and having asked for some constructive criticism, and
what response do I get.
None
I'm just soo depressed, I may have to get work as a car park attendant.
If anyone wants to have a look its at www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran
Antony
- -----------------end quote------------------
Lastly a quick request, Please no reviews of my site for about 2 months I am
in th emiddle of a HUGE update (about 200 pages worth of traveller; 300
pages in total) that will take me at least that long to complete. On the
other hand please feel free to visit and mail me comments privately. :)
Peter
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk (Trav & AD&D)
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
And life is harsh and rarely fair.
Never appeal to a man's 'better nature.' He may not have one.
Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love (By Robert.Heinlan)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:58:36 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: MST3K
Does anyone still have the link to the MST3k version of Dark Dungeons that
was posted here a month or so ago?
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:21:50 -0700
From: "A. Batishko" <abatish@utah-inter.net>
Subject: writing programs..
Interesting that all these messages about writing trading programs and
calculating routes recently came up. I've also been working on a program,
although this will be more along the lines of a multi-player (networked),
cross-platform trading game. It's based off the GURPS trading system, but
uses T4 system generation (with a little T4 Pocket Empires stuff thrown in).
Sounds odd, but it works well. Anyway, so I've just recently finished up my
code to do shortest route calculations. I can calculate the trade routes for
a single sub-sector in under a second. Performance is a little worse than
N^2 though, so a 2x2 block of subsectors takes around 2 minutes. A full
sector probably takes around a half-hour or so to calculate. :( I guess on
the plus side, you only have to do this once, but I'm not sure I'd want to
try and generate Imperium-wide trade maps without making some changes.
Anyhow, just thought I'd pass this along to join the throng of programmers
working on Traveller projects.
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:25:51 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
Mark Preston wrote:
> >Bloo said:
> > The original poster said that in the U.S. the phrase "Dungeons
> > & Dragons" is protected by US copyright law, but is protected
> > by trademark law (and not copyright law) in Europe.
> >
> > That statement is incorrect.
> >
> I am surprised to hear that - although I admit that I got the quote
> from a magazine, not a legal ruling. Could you let me know what the
> situation actually is?
"Dungeons & Dragons" is a registered trademark in the US.
http://tess.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=5roev8.3.4
The phrase "Dungeons & Dragons" is not copyrighted, indeed,
it is incapable of earning a copyright because it is not an
"original work of authorship", which was the reasoning the
original poster used, IIRC, albeit misapplied. It is the same
reason that you cannot copyright a title. As far as copyright law
is concerned, I can publish a book called "Dungeons & Dragons".
But it is very likely that this action, permissible by copyright,
would be impermissible according to *trademark* law.
Different beasts. Sometimes similar results.
bloo
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3747
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3748
Date: | 2/27/01 6:53:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 27 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3748
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: MST3K
Re: writing programs..
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: Fastest Gun etc.
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
RE: New Traveller software project
Re: MST3K
Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
Cricket, and all that
Re: MST3K
Re: Fastest Gun etc.
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: New Traveller software project
Re: New Traveller software project
Re: New Traveller software project
Re: New Traveller software project
Re: Fastest Gun etc.
Re: Fastest Gun etc.
[Website Review] The Star Kingdom of Swan
OT: statistics
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:34:05 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: MST3K
On Mon, Feb 26, 2001 at 06:58:36PM -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> Does anyone still have the link to the MST3k version of Dark Dungeons that
> was posted here a month or so ago?
Sure:
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
> Chick, BTW, is also the man who gave us Dark Dungeons.. read the MST3K
> version here:
>
> http://www.fecundity.com/darkdung/setup.html
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:42:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: writing programs..
A. Batishko writes:
> up my code to do shortest route calculations. I can calculate the trade
> routes for a single sub-sector in under a second. Performance is a little
> worse than N^2 though, so a 2x2 block of subsectors takes around 2 minutes.
> A full sector probably takes around a half-hour or so to calculate. :( I
> guess on the plus side, you only have to do this once, but I'm not sure I'd
> want to try and generate Imperium-wide trade maps without making some
> changes.
Yes, that's fairly atrocious. My route generator produces a trade map for a
sector in 2-5 seconds (depending on the sector), and is somewhat less than
N^2 (for extremely large maps it should eventually drop to be close to O[N])
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 19:42:04 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>Hah. Try a real gun. :) I don't believe in that crappy ETC stuff, not
when you
>can have a muzzle velocity of 6000 m/s with a gauss weapon. Better
living
>through magnetism, I say/
>
>This was designed a couple of years back as the TL-14 version of a
TL-13
>Solomani weapon I whipped up. It uses the maximum possible velocity,
and a 5mm
>dart because anything bigger would've given more than 300m as the short
range,
>as thus been a waste. It was designed using FFS1 for TNE. If my
understanding
>of FFS2 is correct (I don't own it) the damage should by multiplied by
1.43 to
>get T4 figures (giving about a 13 for the dart).
<snip nice weapon>
Impressive weapon, but the original weapon in question was TL10 (see
below) as was the 2 weapons I listed. (checking my previous post) Oops,
I seem to have missed the line that showed TL. But TL was clearly
listed on the online catolog. Next comment: can your sniper rifle punch
holes in standard battledress of the tech level of your. Does not look
like it can. Our sniper rifle can punch holes in TL13 battledress,
which is 3 TLs ABOVE the TL of our sniper rifle. Could you please
revise your weapon to TL10 for an honest comparison.
David Shayne
>The Orcrist Firearms Foundry (a division of the Spinward Marches
>Entertainment Group) proudly announces the first in a series of
>cutting edge TL 10 small arms: The 20 mm Ghost.
Please note that my previous post forgot to list TL of the 2 sniper
rifles which is TL10.
Charles H
President CRH Industries, LIC
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 20:37:35 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Repost adding omitted data:
>12mm ETC Light Sniper rifle.
> This rifle uses a bullpup design to maximize barrel length,
>semi-automatic mechinism, electronic sights, muzzle break with recoil
>compensation, shock absorbing stock, and bipod.
> Mass 10.91kg
> Range (basic): 312 meters
> 5 round box magizine.
> Slug damage: 14
> Recoil: 1
> Flash: 2
TL: 10
Ammo: 12x40mm BETC
Muzzle Energy: 24400
Weapon Length: 170cm
Weapon Weight: 10.9kg loaded, 10.46kg empty (no magizine)
Price: 14854Cr
Mag. Weight: .23kg
Mag. Price: 2.3Cr
Ammo Price: DS: 6.22Cr, slug: 2.49Cr, HE: 4.97Cr, HEAP: 6.72Cr
Ammo Weight: 45.2g
Ammo Dam Pen SR
12x40 DS 14 15/14/12/8 288
w/ bipod 14 15/14/12/8 300(374)
12x40 Slug 14 14 240
w/ bipod 14 14 300(312)
12x40 HE 15 14 180
w/ bipod 15 14 234
12x40 HEAP 14 15 180
w/ bipod 14 15 234
>15mm ETC Heavy Sniper Rifle:
> This rifle uses a bullpup design to maximize barrel length,
>semi-automatic mechinism, electronic sights, muzzle break, and bipod.
> Mass 17.04kg
> Range (basic): 358 meters
> 5 round box magizine.
> Slug damage: 16
> Recoil: 2
> Flash: 2
TL: 10
Ammo: 15x50mm BED
Muzzle Energy: 42500
Weapon Length: 193cm
Weapon Weight: 17.04kg loaded, 16.24kg empty (no magizine)
Price: 28683Cr
Mag. Weight: .36kg
Mag. Price: 3.6Cr
Ammo Price: DS: 12.16Cr, slug: 4.86Cr, HE: 9.72Cr, HEAP: 14.58Cr
Ammo Weight: 88.4g
Ammo Dam Pen SR
15x50 DS 16 18/16/14/9 300(331)
w/ bipod 16 18/16/14/9 300(430)
15x50 Slug 16 16 276
w/ bipod 16 16 300(359)
15x50 HE 19 16 206
w/ bipod 19 16 269
15x50 HEAP 16 19 206
w/ bipod 16 19 269
The HEAP round from the 15mm sniper rifle will penatrate TL14
battledress.
>We also currently have 2 antique reproductions on our reproductions
page
>of the catolog for those who wish to appear to be antique collectors.
>Both of these weapons are 12.7mm caliber weapons from the early
>Interstellar War period.
both reproductions are TL8
See our sample catolog at
http://home1.gte.net/res04u7k/Traveller/
Charles H
President CRH Industries, LIC
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:28:40 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fastest Gun etc.
> Found the following on the UniSci site. Thought the last
> line was kinda interesting. The full story can be found
> at:
> http://unisci.com/stories/20011/0226012.htm
>
> Fastest Gun In The West Outdoes Nuclear Explosion
So at what speed does the round melt from air friction?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:39:11 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
On 26 Feb 2001, at 19:42, Charles R Hensley wrote:
> Impressive weapon, but the original weapon in question was TL10 (see
> below) as was the 2 weapons I listed. (checking my previous post) Oops,
> I seem to have missed the line that showed TL. But TL was clearly
> listed on the online catolog. Next comment: can your sniper rifle punch
> holes in standard battledress of the tech level of your. Does not look
> like it can. Our sniper rifle can punch holes in TL13 battledress,
> which is 3 TLs ABOVE the TL of our sniper rifle. Could you please
> revise your weapon to TL10 for an honest comparison.
Actually it can. Standard BD of TL14 is AV8 (TNE), so it's an easy job to 600m.
I'll do a TL10 variant tonight, though I don't think it'll be anywhere near as
impressive if I use my house-rule that gauss smallarms are limited in MV to
3000 m/s at TL10, plus 1000 m/s per extra TL, up to 6000 m/s (that's how mass
drivers work, so it seems reasonable). Besides, batteries are pretty crappy at
TL10. Well we shall see.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:59:18 -0600
From: "David C. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
If you need/want some VB help, I can offer my sevices. Especially with
Algorithms etc.
DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)
ICQ PIN 1259783
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber. However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 23:28:25 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: MST3K
> Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 18:58:36 EST
> From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
> Subject: Re: MST3K
>
> Does anyone still have the link to the MST3k version of Dark Dungeons that
> was posted here a month or so ago?
>
> LKW
http://www.fecundity.com/darkdung/setup.html
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:30:09 -0600
From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
No sense hauling 225,000 displacement tons around in jump with you when you
only need it for actual games.
In the tradition of some modern stadiums which have movable roofs, I would
suggest that the ship be a collapsible stadium. The field could occupy the
'floor' of the ship with the stands along the sides and roof when
jumping.. The grav plates in the stands would be off. The team would have
adequate room for 'indoor' practice during jump.When the ship arrived
insystem and prepared for a game, the stands would pivot down into position
and the new 'roof' would be comprised of a collapsible membrane which
would be held up by air pressure. This would create a full-sized stadium
for pre-game workouts and actual games. This is illustrated below in
incredibly crude ascii art.
| | box seats
__________
| |
/
\ \ /
/
\ \ /
stands
/_____field______\ \ ______field_____/
ship in travel
mode ship in game mode
The stands could have life support separate from the field so that the fans
could have the atmosphere and gravity that they are accustomed to while the
field was kept at standard atmosphere and gravity.
I will leave it as an exercise for others to determine what the required
ship displacement would be.
Peter Newman wrote:
> The way to play baseball or another sport on the interstellar
> level would be to get a surplus K'Kree ship that is just one
> big compartment, set up that compartment as a playing field,
> and jump it around between planets. The ship would maintain
> a constant standard gravity, pressure, etc. The visiting team
> would travel on the ship and the 'home' teams would play on the
> ship when it reached their planet.
>
> A playing field 100 meters square with a 10 meter roof would be
> about 7,500 displacement tons. Would a sports dome with seating,
> concessions, dugouts, scoreboard, whatever might be 300 meters
> by 200 meters with a 50 meter roof be big enough for most events?
> That would be about 225,000 displacement tons. If your sport does
> not have a high flying ball you can trim the roof height down a lot
> and save a lot of tonnage.
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 22:46:02 -0600
From: Bill Hopper <whopper@pobox.com>
Subject: Re: Soccer (was Re: world series)
Sorry about the illegible attempt at ascii art. It did not translate well to
the list.(Well, I did say it would be incredibly crude.:-)) Hopefully the
intent can be discerned from the text.
Bill Hopper wrote:
> ...This is illustrated below in
> incredibly crude ascii art.
>
> | | box seats
>
> __________
> | |
> /
> \ \ /
> /
> \ \ /
> stands
>
> /_____field______\ \ ______field_____/
> ship in travel
> mode ship in game mode
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:57:00 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Cricket, and all that
Dear Folks -
Well, with all this discussion on cricket, it doesn't seem off-topic to
note the passing of the greatest player that the cricketing world has ever
seen. Sir Don Bradman passed away on Sunday 25 February. He hadn't played
cricket for 50 years, but is still regarded as Australia's greatest
sporting hero. In a sport where scoring 100 runs in a game is seen as a
major achievement, "The Don's" high score of 452 still stands todays as the
highest individual score for a first-grade match. And he did it in record
time, a little over 400 minutes.
He scored a total of 6996 Test runs. He averaged 99.94 in Test matches,
just missing out on a perfect 100 average by four runs. His Sheffield
Shield average was 110.19. He scored 117 first-grade centuries (including
37 double centuries!), still a record for any Australian. He captained the
"Invincibles", the team that remained unbeaten on the 1948 UK tour. He was
knighted by King George VI in 1949 for his services to cricket and
Commonwealth relations, and made a Companion of the Order of Australia in
1979.
He married his wife Jessie in 1932, later describing it as the best
partnership of his life. She passed away in 1997, after 65 years of
marriage.
His advice for aspiring champions was: "They don't need wealth. They don't
need power. They don't need anything else except the love of their friends
and some natural ability."
Whether baggy-green or any other, our hats should be off and we should be
upstanding for a minute's silence to mark the passing of this great man.
Obituary on the ABC (Australia) Web Site:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/features/obits/bradman/
The Bradman Collection (State Library of South Australia) web site:
http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/library/collres/bradman/home_page.htm
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 21:02:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: MST3K
In mail you write:
> Does anyone still have the link to the MST3k version of Dark Dungeons that
> was posted here a month or so ago?
Someone posted something like that somewhere just *yesterday*. I'll see
if I can find it... Ah!
http://a_company_of_wolves.tripod.com/thetruth.html
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:24:34 +0200
From: Niko Mikkanen <niko.mikkanen@capslock.fi>
Subject: Re: Fastest Gun etc.
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> So at what speed does the round melt from air friction?
Less than that. :)
One of the more interesting studies regarding railguns is the search for
projectiles that can withstand the heat from air friction.
The upside of this is the fact that you can use the same gun for both
anti-armor and anti-personnel work: Use non-melting ammunition for
armor, and use something that melts for anti-personnel shotgun effect.
Molten drops of iron at 15K/sec, anyone? Owwie...
GNiko
- --
Would that reason were as contagious as emotion.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:17:31 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
On 26 Feb 2001, at 19:42, Charles R Hensley wrote:
> Impressive weapon, but the original weapon in question was TL10 (see
> below) as was the 2 weapons I listed. (checking my previous post) Oops,
> I seem to have missed the line that showed TL. But TL was clearly
> listed on the online catolog. Next comment: can your sniper rifle punch
> holes in standard battledress of the tech level of your. Does not look
> like it can. Our sniper rifle can punch holes in TL13 battledress,
> which is 3 TLs ABOVE the TL of our sniper rifle. Could you please
> revise your weapon to TL10 for an honest comparison.
>
> Charles H
> President CRH Industries, LIC
In response to this request for a more 'sporting' low-tech gauss sniper rifle
KaliArms, Inc. of Fulton (Canopus/2228) have had the following prototype made
up by Scala State Arsenal, Scala (Canopus/2229), as we supply state of the art
weaponry only. This weapon is a fine example of why we at KaliArms recommend
use of the most advenced smallarms available, as it is heavy and the weight of
the batteries makes carrying extra ammunition impractical. However it will
penetrate standard light Imperial BD-14, so it is not a complete waste of
space, and should any potential buyer be interested we can provide copies in
lots of 50 or more for merely 2700 Confed credits each. Volume discounts for
larger orders subject to negotiation.
Weapon Type: TL-10 semi-automatic longarm
Ammunition: 7.9x39.5mm/30 gauss dart
Muzzle Energy: 17550 joules, required energy: 52650 joules
Weapon Length: 73 cm
Weapon Weight: 30.028 kg loaded, 19.364 kg empty, with no magazine
Weapon Price: Cr3875
Magazine Weight: 10.664 kg loaded, 10.586 kg empty
Magazine Price: Cr22 (20-round box)
Ammunition Price: Cr0.08 (Dart), Cr0.16 (HE, Tranq), Cr0.23 (HEAP)
Ammunition Weight: 3.9 grams per round
Features: plastic stock, electronic sight, bipod
Traveller: TNE
Name ROF Dam Pen Bulk Mag SS Burst SR
7.9x39.5mm Dart SA5 9 1-2-4 10 20 2 - 230 (232)
w/ Bipod SA5 9 1-2-4 10 20 1 - 300 (295.6)
7.9x39.5mm HE SA5 9 Nil 10 20 2 - 170 (174)
w/ Bipod SA5 9 Nil 10 20 1 - 220 (221.7)
7.9x39.5mm HEAP SA5 9 2-2-2 10 20 2 - 170 (174)
w/ Bipod SA5 9 2-2-2 10 20 1 - 220 (221.7)
7.9x39.5mm Tranq SA5 -1* Nil 10 20 2 - 30 (139.2)
w/ Bipod SA5 -1* Nil 10 20 1 - 30 (30)
All stats are TNE stats, so T4 damage would be 13, I think.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:39:16 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
On 26 Feb 2001, at 11:54, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Hello Andrew,
> Don't feel like you are in the Minority with Visual Basic. I've been
From what I can gather, VB definitely is not a "minority" language (about
half the jobs I see advertised ask for VB skills) <g>.
Its just every developer I talk to really seems to dislike it. From what I can
see it does have some problems with polymorphism, error handling and
portability, but other than that it seems fairly robust (mind you inheritance
is a fairly major thing to have wrong).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:23:48 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> From what I can gather, VB definitely is not a "minority" language (about
> half the jobs I see advertised ask for VB skills) <g>.
>
> Its just every developer I talk to really seems to dislike it. From what I can
> see it does have some problems with polymorphism, error handling and
> portability, but other than that it seems fairly robust (mind you inheritance
> is a fairly major thing to have wrong).
Of course, that's the *real* cause of all those "VB programmer
wanted" ads: their code broke because VB is such a sucky language and
no-one else wants to touch the code with a barge-pole :)
You don't see "Haskell programmers wanted" ads because *their* code
works first time and never needs maintaining ;^) (Tongue *very* firmly
in cheek)
ObTrav: Huh? What's Traveller? I just logged onto this board to
bash Visual Basic ;^)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:37:46 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
On 27 Feb 2001, at 22:23, Timothy Little wrote:
> ObTrav: Huh? What's Traveller? I just logged onto this board to
> bash Visual Basic ;^)
No fair, at least pick a target capable of motion :*>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 11:43:32 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
On Tuesday, February 27, 2001, at 11:37 AM, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> On 27 Feb 2001, at 22:23, Timothy Little wrote:
>
> > ObTrav: Huh? What's Traveller? I just logged onto this board to
> > bash Visual Basic ;^)
>
> No fair, at least pick a target capable of motion :*>
Rather than being a motion...
- - Rob.
- --
Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/dylan
"The idea behind Dylan-to offer a range of dynamism appropriate to each piece of an application-feels right, and after using Dylan you will become frustrated with C++ and Java." - Software Development Magazine.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 08:09:27 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fastest Gun etc.
> > Fastest Gun In The West Outdoes Nuclear Explosion
>
>So at what speed does the round melt from air friction?
My guess is that this research is aimed at "Star Wars" missile killing --
they're thinking of using it in space, so air friction isn't a factor.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:16:34 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: Fastest Gun etc.
Gauss rounds with coolant shells would look like tracers or tiny missiles: glowing tips with streams of gas behind them. :-)
- - Rob.
On Tuesday, February 27, 2001, at 01:09 PM, Paul Drye wrote:
> > > Fastest Gun In The West Outdoes Nuclear Explosion
> >
> >So at what speed does the round melt from air friction?
>
> My guess is that this research is aimed at "Star Wars" missile killing --
> they're thinking of using it in space, so air friction isn't a factor.
- --
JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/
Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,
Edition en Anglais.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:33:42 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: [Website Review] The Star Kingdom of Swan
The Traveller Website Review
- ----------------------------
Antony Farrell nominated his site for scrutiny:
The Star Kingdom of Swan
http://www.users.bigpond.com/Skaran/
This is a moderately large site named after a non-canon TNE-rules
campaign that forms part of the site. The front page is designed
for a large screen, a large initial graphic and a sideways table
of links will cause small screens to have horizontal scrolling.
Apart from that this site wont win any prizes for its HTML: text
is presented in a variety of colours on a black and white
speckled 'star' background. Some of the headings are underlined
and confusingly look like they are links (until you hover the
mouse cursor over them). However, as for content ...
The section titled "The Campaign" details the non-canon TNE-rules
campaign universe from which the site gets its name. It is based
on the original Solomani Rim sector dot map but with the stats
changed. 75% of the sector is unknown or unaligned, with the
remaining 25% split between 6 pocket empires of from 4 to 11
systems each. The TL is 9 to 12.
"Star Systems & Worlds" provides subsector stats for 3 subsectors
and expanded detail of 5 systems (for the campaign). Some of
these systems have a mainworld map and a temperature worksheet.
While the maps look well drawn the scans don't do them justice
... they are small and have poor contrast (on-map labelling is
not as clear as it could be). The temperature worksheets are not
HTML tables (or preformatted text) but are low resolution scanned
images!
"Starships & Spacecraft" provides a range of 39 TNE ships of TL7
to 11. Sizes range from 20 dtons to 50K dtons.
"Vehicles & Equipment" provides a further 9 TNE vehicles (TL5 -
11), 8 TNE smallarms (TL9 - 11), and 1 TNE TAC missile (TL10).
"Stargate" describes an interesting quirk to this game universe.
FTL travel is based either on conventional jump-2 technology, or
on a network of discovered ancient stargates.
The section titles "Banners Sector" details an alternative canon
TNE campaign set (obviously in the Banners sector). It shows the
changes from 1117 to 1201.
"MegaTraveller Equipment" is an extensive archive of MT designed
vehicles. The author is quite prolific here. Vehicles range
from TL5 to 14, 2 dtons to 85K dtons, and in function from
tracked tank to monitor.
In summary: In addition to providing an alternative campaign to
GDW's canon, this is a useful resource of MT and TNE
vehicles/ships and provides some info on the Solomani Rim's
rimward side.
Improvements: Taking content and presentation separately ...
For content the "Star Kingdom of Swan" setting is intriguing but
the campaign specific content is still low. More worlds need to
be detailed, key personalities highlighted, etc to bring this
campaign to life. I look forward to seeing more.
Presentation needs work. The world map scans could be improved
(made slightly larger and have their contrast enhanced to improve
legibility. Using scanned images of tables (temperature
worksheets) is slack ... they should be replaced by proper HTML
tables. And more thought needs to be put into the overall colour
scheme (though, admittedly, the sector dot maps do look good).
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 09:54:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: OT: statistics
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>>"Perfectly statistically accurate, but fairly obviously
>>non-meaningful."
>Well said, sir. As an engineer who must deal with statistics fairly
>often, I am always the voice that gently reminds my colleagues and clients
>not to place too much faith in them. The more the numbers are parsed, the
>more iterations they are put through, the further they are divorced from
>reality. Data can only be manipulated so far and after a certain point is
>reached it becomes gobblygook.
On one occassion, after a long statistical analysis, a collegue of
mine approached me and asked whether the data had confessed.
:)
>A few decades ago, I came across the "fact" of left-handed people's
>early mortality when compared to right-handed folks.
<snipped>
>The original researcher simply believed that because so few of the
>elderly were left handed, that left handed people died earlier. He had used
>the numbers, but had failed to understand them.
>"There are three types of falsehoods; lies, damned lies, and
>statistics." Mark Twain
It is always good to bear this in mind, but in fairness the statistics
themselves do not lie. Like any other information they may be
misinterpreted, twisted, faked, incorrectly reported, etc. The
problem is that most people do not understand statistics, and
therefore it is relatively easy to quote a statistic and then convince
people that it means something far beyond a reasonable
interpretation.
Peez
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3748
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3749
Date: | 2/27/01 4:13:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 27 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3749
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE : Indefinite Life Span
RE: Fastest Gun etc.
RE: Fastest Gun etc.
RE: Fastest Gun etc.
My Traveller web page ain't dead yet
RE: Fastest Gun etc.
RE: Fastest Gun etc.
RE: world series
Re: New Traveller software project
Sayat
V&V
RE: Fastest Gun etc.
Re: New Traveller software project
Re: New Traveller software project
RE: New Traveller software project
Re: New Traveller software project
Re: New Traveller software project
RE: New Traveller software project
Re: Sayat
Re: New Traveller software project
Re: Sayat
lkw@io.com
RE: writing programs...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 10:03:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE : Indefinite Life Span
Anthony Jackson writes:
>Ian Ferguson writes:
>>Rupert Boleyn writes:
>>>I'm fairly sure I saw a study of developed nations that showed that for
>>>a given average income the country with the greatest wealth
>>>difference had the lowest life expectancy, even in the wealthy
>>>component of its population.
>>I don't know what the deal is with regards to life expectencies in
>>various Terran societies, but I could imagine that in those countries
>where there is a large gap between "rich" and "poor", education, diet
>>and medical resources tend to be lower than in other countries (even
>>for the "rich".
>Or, it may simply be a fairly obvious statistical effect having to do with
>averaging.
>If you assume that people who make $1,000 a year live to 50, $10,000 a
>year live to 60, $100,000 a year live to 70 (crude examples):
>Country A has everyone at 10,000 a year. Avg income 10k, avg livespan 60
>Country B has 91% at 1,000 a year, 9% at 100k. Avg income 10k, avg
livespan 51.8.
>Perfectly statistically accurate, but fairly obviously non-meaningful.
You are absolutely correct, and you make an important point, but it
does not apply to this example. Note that Mr. Boleyn specified that
the life expectency was lower "even in the wealthy component of the
population." Thus, to use your example, we might expect the
average life expectency to be 70 among those who make $100,000
a year whether they make up 9% or 90% of the population. I am
suggesting that this may not be the case since the determinants of
life span may generally be different for the 9% vs the 90%.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:40:22 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Fastest Gun etc.
Niko Mikkanen wrote:
> The upside of this is the fact that you can use the same gun
> for both anti-armor and anti-personnel work: Use non-melting
> ammunition for armor, and use something that melts for anti-
> personnel shotgun effect. Molten drops of iron at 15K/sec,
> anyone? Owwie...
IIRC someone on this list once worked out the effects of ultra-
high velocity mozzarella cheese. I'm fairly sure that would melt
at 15K/sec ...
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:47:21 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: RE: Fastest Gun etc.
On Tuesday, February 27, 2001, at 04:40 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> IIRC someone on this list once worked out the effects of ultra-
> high velocity mozzarella cheese. I'm fairly sure that would melt
> at 15K/sec ...
Unless you freeze it and allow extra cheese as ablative mass. Or use the old "tunneling laser" technique from 2300AD plasma weapons.
- - Rob.
- --
JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/
Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,
Edition en Anglais.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:04:55 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Fastest Gun etc.
Rob Myers wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 27, 2001, at 04:40 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> > IIRC someone on this list once worked out the effects of ultra-
> > high velocity mozzarella cheese. I'm fairly sure that would melt
> > at 15K/sec ...
>
> Unless you freeze it and allow extra cheese as ablative mass.
> Or use the old "tunneling laser" technique from 2300AD plasma weapons.
And if its small enough to carry we have the ...
PGMP-8 (Pizza Gun, Man Portable)
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:10:20 -0500
From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
Subject: My Traveller web page ain't dead yet
I was saddened to see how long it had been since my last
Traveller web page update. Therefore, I updated it.
Just two new additions, a pair of High Guard 2nd edition
battle reports.
Main page:
http://users.hartwick.edu/smithw/traveller.htm
Battle reports:
http://users.hartwick.edu/smithw/starship/beaumaris.htm
http://users.hartwick.edu/smithw/starship/beaumaris2.htm
Now I just need to finish some more deckplans!!
Walt Smith
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:15:36 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: RE: Fastest Gun etc.
Only if you use pepperoni slices as tracers.... :-)
- - Rob.
On Tuesday, February 27, 2001, at 05:04 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> Rob Myers wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 27, 2001, at 04:40 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> > > IIRC someone on this list once worked out the effects of ultra-
> > > high velocity mozzarella cheese. I'm fairly sure that would melt
> > > at 15K/sec ...
> >
> > Unless you freeze it and allow extra cheese as ablative mass.
> > Or use the old "tunneling laser" technique from 2300AD plasma weapons.
>
> And if its small enough to carry we have the ...
>
> PGMP-8 (Pizza Gun, Man Portable)
- --
JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/
Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,
Edition en Anglais.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:54:53 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Fastest Gun etc.
The government today ordered an investigation into allegations of health
risks posed by Depleted Anchovy-tipped rounds...
Dean
>
>
> Only if you use pepperoni slices as tracers.... :-)
>
> - Rob.
>
> On Tuesday, February 27, 2001, at 05:04 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:
>
> > Rob Myers wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, February 27, 2001, at 04:40 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> > > > IIRC someone on this list once worked out the effects
> of ultra-
> > > > high velocity mozzarella cheese. I'm fairly sure that
> would melt
> > > > at 15K/sec ...
> > >
> > > Unless you freeze it and allow extra cheese as ablative mass.
> > > Or use the old "tunneling laser" technique from 2300AD
> plasma weapons.
> >
> > And if its small enough to carry we have the ...
> >
> > PGMP-8 (Pizza Gun, Man Portable)
>
> --
> JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/
> Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,
> Edition en Anglais.
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:04:50 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: RE: world series
Frank G. Pitt wrote:
>Larsen E. Whipsnade
>
>> Thank you for repsonse to my post concerning the world's
>> most popular game. While my views do no agree with yours,
>> I did did point out that they arise from my not being exposed
>> to football as a child.
>
>OK, I haven't played in ages, so I apologize if the rules have changed or I
>remember incorrectly, but here's nmy understanding iof the rules.
Likewise, but if I my offer a few corrections.
>> IIRC, an offensive player can be no nearer the goal than any
>> defensive player, unless he is in possession of the ball.
>
>The rule is not about to whom you can pass the ball, but on the position of
>the offensive player, and there must be at least two defenders between yuo
>and the goal, not _all_ of the defensive playrs.
I think it's any one player of the opposing side apart from the goalkeeper.
Also, if you are further away from the goal line than the ball, you are
always on side.
Hence the tactic of the fast winger who runs down one side of the pitch to
the goal line and then can pass the ball to anyone without them being
offside.
And you can't be offside in your own half.
>In the past, just _being_ there was enough to cause a free kick, I think
>this has now been amended such that its only if you are in this position and
>you touch the ball that it's actually a foul, but I'm not sure, it may just
>that, as in the past, the refs only bothered calling offside when the player
>was near the ball.
The rule is that a player counts as offside only if they are affecting play.
So anyone that you pass to counts, as does anyone that you might pass to
but someone who stays off the pitch, is lying down exhausted or just jogging
back up the pitch after an attempt on goal might not.
I think that the referees have been a bit more relaxed on the "not affected
play"
definition of late.
>> If true, this shackles offensive players' movements.
>> A player can not dart pass a defender, recieve a pass, and then attmept
>to score.
>
>Yes, they can. They must, however, start "on side" before the ball is
>released (kicked) by the passing player, then they may "follow" the ball
>offside. What they can't do is be off-side when the ball is kicked and then
>play the ball.
This is also true. With good timing, the attacker is running towards the goal
whilst the defender (looking at the ball) is running away from the goal to put
him offside. So your attacker might be running fast after a ball and 5m clear
of the defender, with only the goalkeeper to beat.
>> In my defense, I should mention that I much prefer low scoring,
>> defensive games in American football too. However, I prefer basball to
>> American football. Out football combines the two worst features of our
>> culture; violence and committee meetings.
>> I did notice that you made no mention of football's asinine way to
>> settle tie games in your passionate defense of the game to me. Do you
>> prefer a kicking contest to the thrilling game play you wrote about?
Agreed - the only decent way for a team to win is to score more goals
in normal play.
Results over the past few decades have shown how much English teams hate
such things. Or that we can't find five players in the country that can shoot
straight, whichever.
In league matches (although I seem to recall this might not apply to
American Soccer Leagues) a draw is an acceptable result.
Only in knockout competitions is a win/lose result required. In some of
these you play home and away legs and only need a combined win/lose result.
If the scores are tied, you count goals scored at the away match double,
so a shootout requires that the scores in the two matches are exactly
reversed.
In others you replay matches - the FA Cup in the UK used to have unlimited
replays (IIRC one match took six replays and since the rest of the league
matches still had to be fitted in, there was some risk of delaying the final)
I think this has changed to a single replay, plus extra time in both match -
so 4 hours of football, before penalty shootouts.
The world cup is a specific exception because there isn't enough time
available
to replay any match. Even so, the first part is a league where draws are
acceptable, as they are in the qualifying games.
Phil Kitching
- --
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:01:23 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> On 26 Feb 2001, at 11:54, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>
>
>> Hello Andrew,
>> Don't feel like you are in the Minority with Visual Basic. I've been
>
>
>>From what I can gather, VB definitely is not a "minority" language (about
> half the jobs I see advertised ask for VB skills) <g>.
>
> Its just every developer I talk to really seems to dislike it. From what I can
> see it does have some problems with polymorphism, error handling and
> portability, but other than that it seems fairly robust (mind you inheritance
> is a fairly major thing to have wrong).
Then you're talking to a bunch of elitist 'C'nobs. VBasic now probably
runs more business software than Cobol. There are TONS of applications
out there, and for 99% of the work needed to be done by computers it'll do.
One thing...if you can avoid using Windowze-Only features (as, alas,
Heaven and Earth did) then a Mac port of your software is relatively
straightforward using RealBASIC.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:57:48 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Sayat
Ian,
I need the Sayat writeup immediately, or I'm going to have to drop it from
the book -- CCing TML in case I don' have your correct e-mail address.
Loren Wiseman
Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society http://jtas.sjgames.com/
SJ Games
lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
(512) 447-7866 VOX
(512) 447-1144 FAX
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 15:17:22 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: V&V
Gentles,
I need to talk to someone who owns Vilani and Vargr. Please respond to both
lkw@io.com and gdwgames@aol.com.
Thanks,
Loren Wiseman
Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society http://jtas.sjgames.com/
SJ Games
lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
(512) 447-7866 VOX
(512) 447-1144 FAX
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:50:48 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Fastest Gun etc.
On 27 Feb 2001, at 16:40, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> IIRC someone on this list once worked out the effects of ultra-
> high velocity mozzarella cheese. I'm fairly sure that would melt
> at 15K/sec ...
It's rubbery at 90 degrees C, the temperature at which it is worked to give it
its consistency (and to kill all the little buggies that would otherwise give
it a flavour). AFAIK it doesn't melt in the traditional sense.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:28:52 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
I must admit to having a good laugh about the VB debate.
I'd just like to point out that a great deal of Traveller software is
produced in VB. All of Hugh Foster's programs, GRIP, my own Heaven & Earth.
I don't hear many people complaining about these programs.
VB is a good programming language for people who don't know how to
program... and if that gets a few more people programming good (or bad)
Traveller software then I'm all for it.
When I started writing Traveller software I was fairly competent at BASIC,
but had never been near VB. Over the three years I have been producing
software using VB, my skills have improved and I would say that I've slowly
become a good programmer.
VB may not be the most advanced, logical or quick programing language, but
in my opinion it is just the snobbery of 'professional' programmers who
treat it with disdain.
Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm
"A people should know when they're conquered"
Quintus Magnus, Regimental Commander, Army of the North
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:40:34 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
>
> One thing...if you can avoid using Windowze-Only features (as, alas,
> Heaven and Earth did) then a Mac port of your software is relatively
> straightforward using RealBASIC.
>
Yes, we've found that out in attempting to port H&E to the mac. Ah, well...
Fortunately, code produced by RealBasic can be fairly easily cross compiled
for Windows.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:41:31 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
I am a coder in Java and C++. It is what i do for a living.
That said I have also worked with VB. I find it a fairly decent and in
someways robust. there is nothing wrong with it as a tool for developing
software. infact Ill say this the VB development tool had a few features
that i wished they would add to IBMs Visual Age for Java.
it is an excellent tool for those who are learning to code programs.
I dont understand why people would put it down. but that is just me.
hasta
- -----Original Message-----
From: Stuart Ferris [mailto:stuart.ferris@virgin.net]
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 2:29 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
I must admit to having a good laugh about the VB debate.
I'd just like to point out that a great deal of Traveller software is
produced in VB. All of Hugh Foster's programs, GRIP, my own Heaven & Earth.
I don't hear many people complaining about these programs.
VB is a good programming language for people who don't know how to
program... and if that gets a few more people programming good (or bad)
Traveller software then I'm all for it.
When I started writing Traveller software I was fairly competent at BASIC,
but had never been near VB. Over the three years I have been producing
software using VB, my skills have improved and I would say that I've slowly
become a good programmer.
VB may not be the most advanced, logical or quick programing language, but
in my opinion it is just the snobbery of 'professional' programmers who
treat it with disdain.
Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm
"A people should know when they're conquered"
Quintus Magnus, Regimental Commander, Army of the North
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:05:08 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
On 27 Feb 2001, at 13:01, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> > Its just every developer I talk to really seems to dislike it. From what I
> > can see it does have some problems with polymorphism, error handling and
> > portability, but other than that it seems fairly robust (mind you
> > inheritance is a fairly major thing to have wrong).
> Then you're talking to a bunch of elitist 'C'nobs. VBasic now probably
> runs more business software than Cobol. There are TONS of applications
> out there, and for 99% of the work needed to be done by computers it'll do.
Actually mostly 'Delphi' and 'Jade'nobs :*>. Me, I look at the sits vac pages
and build my skills to match (VB and SQL seem to be a *very* marketable
skill set). My favourite language is probably Jade because it forces you to
build good OO apps, but I do my "hobby" work in Delphi (because its so
much cheaper than Jade).
> One thing...if you can avoid using Windowze-Only features (as, alas,
> Heaven and Earth did) then a Mac port of your software is relatively
> straightforward using RealBASIC.
Okay, can someone give me some pointers on what to avoid? I am going
to work in VB for my next project and portability is very high on my list of
priorities.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:05:08 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
On 27 Feb 2001, at 22:28, Stuart Ferris wrote:
> VB may not be the most advanced, logical or quick programing language, but in
> my opinion it is just the snobbery of 'professional' programmers who treat it
> with disdain.
My reason for learning it is simple. Lots of well paying jobs for VB
programmers. All other considerations are secondary to me :*>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:05:08 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
On 27 Feb 2001, at 14:41, William Lane wrote:
> That said I have also worked with VB. I find it a fairly decent and in
> someways robust. there is nothing wrong with it as a tool for developing
> software. infact Ill say this the VB development tool had a few features
> that i wished they would add to IBMs Visual Age for Java.
Having just started learning it I find it quite difficult getting used to the lack
of centralised exception handling and the problems with inheritance. Even
after just a month I can see that if I were writting HGS in VB instead of
Delphi I would have had to use a radically different design model. Mind you
over half of HGS's code involves data validation and error handling.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:16:51 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Sayat
Hi Loren
I think you mismailed this.
Ben
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
To: <katts@globalfreeway.com.au>
Cc: <traveller@ient.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 8:57 PM
Subject: Sayat
> Ian,
>
> I need the Sayat writeup immediately, or I'm going to have to drop it from
> the book -- CCing TML in case I don' have your correct e-mail address.
>
>
>
> Loren Wiseman
> Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
> Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society http://jtas.sjgames.com/
> SJ Games
> lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
> (512) 447-7866 VOX
> (512) 447-1144 FAX
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:31:48 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
Stuart Ferris wrote:
> I'd just like to point out that a great deal of Traveller software
> is produced in VB. All of Hugh Foster's programs, GRIP, my own
> Heaven & Earth. I don't hear many people complaining about these
> programs.
You don't hear me complaining about those programs, because they are
unusable for me due to being written in Visual Basic. I don't
complain about programs I can't even look at, I just find something
else or write my own. Or both.
> When I started writing Traveller software I was fairly competent at
> BASIC, but had never been near VB. Over the three years I have been
> producing software using VB, my skills have improved and I would say
> that I've slowly become a good programmer.
That's good to hear. Yes, I've heard that it's an easier entry
level language to learn for most people than most other languages,
though I personally had an easier time learning C than I did learning
BASIC. Eventually many of the same attributes that make it easy to
learn also make it hard to write good maintainable and extendable
programs.
Now that you're a "good" programmer, it might be an idea to become
fluent in something other than various dialects of BASIC so you can
actually do a comparison.
> VB may not be the most advanced, logical or quick programing
> language, but in my opinion it is just the snobbery of
> 'professional' programmers who treat it with disdain.
If all you need is a program that will "do something", it's not too
bad. It's a bad choice of language to write a maintainable system
that others can work on, and *especially* bad for writing large
complex systems. It is near-impossible to write cross-platform code
in. It has many known internal bugs, and a number of less-well known
bugs. It conforms to no published standard, including that of its
producer.
Now, you can call this 'snobbery' if you like. You can deny that
any of these problems are undesireable in a programming language if
you like, too. The fact is that most 'professional' programmers (and
a lot of non-professional ones) know a lot of programming languages,
and so have a wide base from which to make comparisons. If VB comes
out poorly in such a comparison, then maybe it is just 'snobbery'. Or
maybe not.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 23:37:52 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Sayat
And then I mismailed it - wonderful.
Ben
Slaps forehead 'D'oh!'
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Ben Aaronovitch <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: Sayat
> <snip>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:02:24 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: lkw@io.com
In a message dated 27-Feb-01 8:53:57 AM Central Standard Time,
owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
> http://www.fecundity.com/darkdung/setup.html
>
> David Shayne
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:10:08 -0700
From: "A. Batishko" <abatish@utah-inter.net>
Subject: RE: writing programs...
> Yes, that's fairly atrocious.
Yes, I believe that part of the problem is that I'm using STL lists
(programming in C++) heavily. At some point down the road, those will go,
but I will also be able to get some speed improvements to with some
algorithm changes to allow me to store the shortest routes generated during
the process.
> My route generator produces a trade map for a
> sector in 2-5 seconds (depending on the sector), and is somewhat
> less than
> N^2 (for extremely large maps it should eventually drop to be
> close to O[N])
Yes, there's definitely a cut-off point, since given two worlds, if they are
furher than a certain distance, won't have a high enough trade to generate a
route.
I know that a large chunk of my time is spent calculating the shortest route
between two systems. This can get really lengthy for two systems half a
sector away from each other... Not sure of any way around this though...
Andrew
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3749
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3750
Date: | 2/28/01 6:44:35 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 28 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3750
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
JTAS question
RE: New Traveller software project
Re: writing programs...
Re: writing programs...
OT Trademark law
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Be afraid...
RE: New Traveller software project
Re: What could go wrong?
RE: New Traveller software project
RE: New Traveller software project
RE : Indefinite Life Span
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3749
RE: Fastest Gun etc.
Re: VisualBASIC
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3749
Re: New Traveller software project
Re: New Traveller software project
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
RE: New Traveller software project
RE: New Traveller software project
RE: New Traveller software project
Re: [TML] writing programs...
Re: New Traveller software project
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:12:36 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 19:25:09 -0500 (EST), "Steve (Bloo) Daniels"
<sdaniels@playnet.com> wrote:
>The phrase "Dungeons & Dragons" is not copyrighted, indeed,
>it is incapable of earning a copyright because it is not an
>"original work of authorship", which was the reasoning the
>original poster used, IIRC, albeit misapplied. It is the same
>reason that you cannot copyright a title. As far as copyright law
>is concerned, I can publish a book called "Dungeons & Dragons".
>But it is very likely that this action, permissible by copyright,
>would be impermissible according to *trademark* law.
>Different beasts. Sometimes similar results.
Actually, whether it's actionable or not would depend on what the book was
about. If it were a treatise on strange reptilian beasts actually kept in
the basements of European castles, you'd probably get away with it. That's
one of the reasons we have Apple Computer and Apple Records, two unrelated
companies. It was ruled that the spheres of influence of the two companies
were dissimilar enough that no trademark infringement could take place.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:07:11 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: JTAS question
Was the Contact: Darrians article from JTAS #14 reprinted in Best of JTAS
#4?
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 19:17:44 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
Hello Folks,
>Having just started learning it I find it quite difficult getting used to
the lack
>of centralised exception handling and the problems with inheritance. Even
>after just a month I can see that if I were writting HGS in VB instead of
>Delphi I would have had to use a radically different design model. Mind you
>over half of HGS's code involves data validation and error handling.
Believe it or not - validation of data seems absurdedly simple in Visual Basic.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:22:44 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: writing programs...
A. Batishko wrote:
> Yes, there's definitely a cut-off point, since given two worlds, if they are
> furher than a certain distance, won't have a high enough trade to generate a
> route.
No, but they can still have enough to add to an existing route.
Across the Imperium, there are huge numbers of such additions with a
cumulative effect substantially greater than that of the subsector
trade routes themselves.
> I know that a large chunk of my time is spent calculating the
> shortest route between two systems. This can get really lengthy for
> two systems half a sector away from each other... Not sure of any
> way around this though...
You can at least reduce it to O((log n)^2) or so for each planet by
caching route segments. Probably further reduction with better
algorithm design, but this is probably sufficient. That improves
matters greatly for maps of sector size or larger. Distance binning
reduces the overall map calculation from O(n^2) trade calculations to
O(n log n). So the overall calculation can be reduced to
O(n (log n)^3).
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:33:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: writing programs...
Timothy Little writes:
> You can at least reduce it to O((log n)^2) or so for each planet by
> caching route segments.
For any given world, you can generate all possible routes from the world as
O(dist^2); generating all 10 pc or shorter routes from every world on the
map is O(n) as long as the map is considerably larger than 10 pc across.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 18:36:49 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: OT Trademark law
Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> It was ruled that the spheres of influence of the two companies
> were dissimilar enough that no trademark infringement could take place.
Well, I didn't want to open this door, because it gets extremely
confusing and uncertain. Yes, trademark is limited by market.
But not just the market the mark is currently used in. If you
can demonstrate an "Intent To Use" (ITU), you can get TM
protection. But it gets more complicated. The likelihood of
a mark owner to 'bridge the gap' from one market to another
can be/has been used to protect a mark in other markets,
that may appear unrelated to the casual observer. Blizzard
Games in now suing New Line Cinema in an attempt to
prevent them from releasing a film named "Diablo". Blizzard
has sold over $100 million in Diablo games. I haven't
read the filings, but I can imagine what it says. Something
along the lines of this:
In the minds of the consumer, because of some similarity to
the New Line movie, there is a very strong likelihood that
we, Blizzard Games, would bridge the gap from games to moves,
similar to Final Fantasy, Mortal Kombat, and others. Indeed, we
can demonstrate with treatments, outlines and notes that we intend
to make movies building upon the valuable "Diablo" brand that we
have created. Therefore, to protect the value of our mark, we
ask the court to enjoin New Line from marketing and releasing
this film with the title Diablo. ... yada, yada, yada.
It never ends. TM law can be a real mess.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:02:36 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>> listed on the online catolog. Next comment: can your sniper rifle
punch
>> holes in standard battledress of the tech level of your. Does not
look
>> like it can. Our sniper rifle can punch holes in TL13 battledress,
>> which is 3 TLs ABOVE the TL of our sniper rifle. Could you please
>> revise your weapon to TL10 for an honest comparison.
>>
>> Charles H
>> President CRH Industries, LIC
Sorry about this. I was using an incorrect conversion from one system to
another.
<snip another impressive weapon>
One problem with this weapon, 30.028 kg loaded. (but our 15mm sniper
"full kit" weighs in at 87kg, but 17kg combat ready)
Might I suggest a CG unit to help carry it. (part of the hefty weight of
our "full kit")
I guess the buyers will determine which is best.
Good luck.
Charles H
President CRH Industries, LIC
P.S.
>as we supply state of the art weaponry only. This weapon is a fine
example of why we at KaliArms >recommend use of the most advenced
smallarms available, as it is heavy and the weight of
>the batteries makes carrying extra ammunition impractical.
As a note, I write mostly about Milieu 0, therefore TL12 max. And in
Year 0, CRH Industries is working at TL11.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 21:59:19 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Be afraid...
Loren Wiseman puts into the Ether:
>I need the Sayat writeup immediately, or I'm going to have to drop it from
>the book -- CCing TML in case I don' have your correct e-mail address.
A cold chill just ran down my spine...
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one.
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:37:18 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote :
> On 26 Feb 2001, at 11:54, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>
> > Hello Andrew,
> > Don't feel like you are in the Minority with Visual Basic. I've been
>
> From what I can gather, VB definitely is not a "minority" language (about
> half the jobs I see advertised ask for VB skills) <g>.
>
> Its just every developer I talk to really seems to dislike it.
> From what I can
> see it does have some problems with polymorphism, error handling and
> portability, but other than that it seems fairly robust (mind you
> inheritance is a fairly major thing to have wrong).
It's also only available on Microsoft platforms, has (or had) a horrible
user interface, and resulted in many people who aren't programmers writing
thousands of progranmmes that those of us who are programmers have had to
try and weed out of corporate environments because of their incorrectness.
The worst culprits are active data controls, these are such a problem there
really should be laws against them.
Consultants like Visual Basic, if someone uses it, it means sometime down
the track we'll get employed to fix the mess it's caused. Companies should
hate Visual Basic for the same reason.
All IME, of course.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:14:13 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: What could go wrong?
On 02/26/01 at 11:36 AM, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:
><Sigh>Of course I know you were reading it...I was half expecting
>to have some weird noise start up on the _Random Walk_ just to keep
>things interesting.
>(The _Walk_ is the _Mae Lee's_ ships boat.)
Nah! The weird noise will start when you try to get Jezebel aboard
the _Walk_.
Bruce's character is on a mission to pickup a new crewmember,
Jezebel, but Jezebel has "air/raftiphobia", and she's 14 days deep
into the wilderness. Jez is going to insist on walking out rather
than riding the _Walk_. Waiting on her for two weeks won't help the
_Mae Lee's_ bottom line very much, but leaving her will cost them
50,000 credits. The ship's doctor is already thinking about ways to
knock Jez out so she can be carried aboard and transported...shades
of Mr. T! <g>
Don't you love it when a plan comes together?
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:44:40 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
On 28 Feb 2001, at 18:37, Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> It's also only available on Microsoft platforms, has (or had) a horrible
> user interface, and resulted in many people who aren't programmers writing
> thousands of progranmmes that those of us who are programmers have had to try
> and weed out of corporate environments because of their incorrectness. The
> worst culprits are active data controls, these are such a problem there really
> should be laws against them.
But surely thats a training issue, rather than a language issue. It would be
quite possible to give someone minimal training in Delphi, set them lose
and watch them generate code from hell. In this case it seems more like
there are a lot of poorly trained VB programmers than any failing of the
language (uhmm, a definite market niche, more reasons to learn VB).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 01:09:22 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
On 02/28/01 at 07:44 PM, "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> said:
>On 28 Feb 2001, at 18:37, Frank G. Pitt wrote:
>> It's also only available on Microsoft platforms, has (or had) a
>> horrible user interface, and resulted in many people who aren't
>> programmers writing thousands of progranmmes that those of us who
>> are programmers have had to try and weed out of corporate
>> environments because of their incorrectness. The worst culprits
>> are active data controls, these are such a problem there really
>> should be laws against them.
>But surely thats a training issue, rather than a language issue. It
>would be quite possible to give someone minimal training in
>Delphi, set them lose and watch them generate code from hell. In
>this case it seems more like there are a lot of poorly trained VB
>programmers than any failing of the language (uhmm, a definite
>market niche, more reasons to learn VB).
Folks, there are "horses for courses"...C, C++, Java, VB, Delphi,
Perl, CoBOL, and even Assembler have their advantages and
disadvantages. Part of learning to program is learning which
language to use for each project. To do that you need experience
with several.
VB is a perfectly good hobbiest language, and that's not an
insult...Turbo Pascal was (and Delphi *is*) also a good hobbiest
language. It's just not what I'd pick for mission critical
projects.
VB is good for small Windows based programs, and even for
prototyping larger programs, and that's what it was designed for,
not large commercial or mission critical projects. Doesn't mean you
*couldn't* use it for that, heck CoBOL was used to write an
operating system once upon a time, it just means it's generally not
the best choice. <g>
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:24:44 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: RE : Indefinite Life Span
The correlation is poor, as I previously posted.
As Anthony J. has said, a statistical artifact is more than likely, given
that the distributions of (prob. survival vs. age at death) are going to be
so similar (like that silly 'Bell Curve' book that came out in the U.S. a
little while ago).
Actual societal factors can be (and have been) enumerated by the list.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:27:13 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3749
>From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
>To: <katts@globalfreeway.com.au>
>Cc: <traveller@ient.com>
>Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 8:57 PM
>Subject: Sayat
>
>
>> Ian,
>>
>> I need the Sayat writeup immediately, or I'm going to have to drop it from
>> the book -- CCing TML in case I don' have your correct e-mail address.
>>
>>
>>
>> Loren Wiseman
With much regret, I must tell you that you are going to have to drop it from the book.
Kenji did not appear to be completely happy with the IP implications of the Sayat turning up in a SJG
product.
I apologise for not writing to you with this sad news earlier.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:33:57 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: RE: Fastest Gun etc.
I'd like to thank David Smart for posting another interesting link.
Reading about Z on the Sandia Labs website was very informative.
> When the plate is accelerated to a speed about 20 times faster than a
> bullet, or 20 km/sec, the more forceful acceleration needed to reach
> higher velocity causes temperatures of 2,500 K to occur in the flyer
> plate; this liquefies aluminum flyer plates.
This is purely an accelerative effect ; no air friction required.
Z is the world's most powerful X-ray source.
For a few trillionths of a second, its power output is equivalent to 80
times the world's electrical generating capacity.
I hope that funding is approved for the next generation X-1 device.
> X-1 should produce x-ray temperatures of more than 3 million degrees,
> which, when combined with enough x-ray energy and power, should be
> sufficient to implode fusion capsules of deuterium and tritium
> (isotopes of hydrogen) to achieve high-yield fusion.
Ob Travs : inertial confinement fusion reactors (with
lithium-beryllium-fluoride power couplings!), materials and blast physics
research, etc...
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:34:40 -0000
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: VisualBASIC
In my experience, the only two things wrong with VB is the supplier (I am
not a great fan of M****$loth software in general) and the fact that it
tends to be the 'Language of Choice' for script kiddies everywhere.
ObTrav: You are just about to jump from system 'A' to system 'B' when STC
(Space Traffic Control) sends you a wonderful new movie clip of low-gee
tennis superstar Aaana Kornikovaaa...
Jeff
(Ever thought of using the 'Traveller Geek Code' to express your software
'interests'? Hmm, C++--, anyone?)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:34:10 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3749
> >
> >> Ian,
> >>
> >> I need the Sayat writeup immediately, or I'm going to have
> to drop it from
> >> the book -- CCing TML in case I don' have your correct
> e-mail address.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Loren Wiseman
>
> With much regret, I must tell you that you are going to have
> to drop it from the book.
>
> Kenji did not appear to be completely happy with the IP
> implications of the Sayat turning up in a SJG
> product.
>
> I apologise for not writing to you with this sad news earlier.
>
> Ian Whitchurch
>
Any chance of seeing the write-up released privately, even if only to the
TML? I don't know nearly enough about the Sayat.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:12:50 +1030
From: htp <htp@metropolis.net.au>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
On 20010227.2228, "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net> wrote:
>VB is a good programming language for people who don't know how to
>program... and if that gets a few more people programming good (or bad)
>Traveller software then I'm all for it.
If we follow that logic... The Anarchist Cookbook is a good introduction
to chemistry - for those people that don't know a thing about
chemistry... and if it gets a few more people manufacturing explosive
compounds (which occasionally produce pretty patterns), then I'm all for
it!
>VB may not be the most advanced, logical or quick programing language, but
>in my opinion it is just the snobbery of 'professional' programmers who
>treat it with disdain.
Yeah, write off the opinions of people who actually _know_ what they are
talking about, and base their opinions on decades of
_real_world_experience_ - just because they don't agree with you. Smart
move.
VB is, by any thorough and objective assessment, a piece of crap. It
will open up programming to the masses, and give birth to generations of
pathetic "programmers" who will churn out billions of lines of absolutely
_shocking_ code. Herd mentality will take over at some point, and the
mob will declare itself to be "the" force to be reckoned with (the word
"standard" will be bandied about a lot). Bolstered by sheer weight of
numbers, they will then attack and marginalise the proponents of other
programming languages on grounds totally without merit, but which sound
_really_ good when chanted by a few million drones in unison. Those with
clue will hide to avoid being trampled as the herd rushes by... and then
plunges off the edge of a very large cliff. Once the dust has settled,
those with clue will pick themselves up, brush themselves off, and,
humming a cheerful but irreverent tune, resolutely set about the task of
repairing the damage and making the world a _better_ place.
It is the _quality_ of code that is important, not the _quantity_ of code.
Henry.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:03:09 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
On 28 Feb 2001, at 20:12, htp wrote:
[his vorpal blade went snicker snack]
Hey lossen up. Its just a tool (like all programming languages), no more
responsible for those who choose to use it than any other. VB may have
some real technical limitations, but poor programmers are not its fault.
Andrew (who is regretting ever mentioning VB).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:11:12 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
On 27 Feb 2001, at 20:02, Charles R Hensley wrote:
> One problem with this weapon, 30.028 kg loaded. (but our 15mm sniper
> "full kit" weighs in at 87kg, but 17kg combat ready)
> Might I suggest a CG unit to help carry it. (part of the hefty weight of
> our "full kit")
The smallest THe legal CG gear weighs 20kg, has a volume of 30L and costs
Cr3000. It also works on a volume of 1.4 m^3, which will tend to make carrying
it "interesting".
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:58:23 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote :
> Hey lossen up. Its just a tool (like all programming languages), no more
> responsible for those who choose to use it than any other. VB may have
> some real technical limitations, but poor programmers are not its fault.
>
> Andrew (who is regretting ever mentioning VB).
Don't worry Andrew, the only time I really got hot under the collar about VB
usage was when I saw a contract advertised somewhere in Scandinavia for a
nuclear power station control program in VB....all I could think was that
I'm glad I live on the other side of the world.
Other times, I don't care, if a client wants to use it, it's their problem.
There are even situations where I'd recommend using VB to a client, though
they are few and far between these days as Java apps are so much quicker and
easier to write than even VB applications (much better libraries), except
for when you need to use OLE links to Windows apps or something like that.
The big problem, IMO, and what causes the trouble, is the advertising that
convinces middle managers that they can write their own software in ten
minutes, and then try to do so, and hand the resulting mess over to IT to
fix.
Not so much the language as the effect it has on non-programmrs. I like the
other poster's analogy to the "The Anarchist's Cookbook", it's a good one.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:43:02 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> The big problem, IMO, and what causes the trouble, is the
> advertising that convinces middle managers that they can write
> their own software in ten minutes, and then try to do so, and
> hand the resulting mess over to IT to fix.
I think the 'problem' is with *any* rapid application development
tool. Anything where the initial learning curve is shallow and
users start getting results early on is usually deployed with
minimal training. I've seen problems with spreadsheet macros ...
badly writen by users then handed over to IT to fix/maintain.
With more difficult to master tools/languages (a) novice users
steer clear, (b) professionals usually get a half-hearted stab at
proper training before they use it.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:44:55 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
htp wrote:
> VB is, by any thorough and objective assessment, a piece of crap.
> It will open up programming to the masses, and give birth to
> generations of pathetic "programmers" who will churn out billions
> of lines of absolutely _shocking_ code.
I take it you miss the days where the only computers were big
hulking mainframes tended to by acolyte-like operators, and
dispise the personal computer (PC, Mac, etc) that gave computing
power to the masses.
Computing *isn't* some sort of modern religion who's secrets
should only be revealed to the privileged few who can prove
themselves worthy! Anything (including VB) that opens up
computing to the masses is a *good* thing. Yes, there will be a
lot more third-rate programs flying about, but many more people
than now will be empowered ... And at the end of the day that's
the whole point of computing. Speaking as a professional
programmer I think your ivory tower viewpoint does our profession
a dis-service.
> It is the _quality_ of code that is important, not the
> _quantity_ of code.
Piffle! Its the *utility* of the code that is important.
Quality code is worthless if it isn't useful to someone, and
while bad quality code might not be as useful as it could be it
can still be better than nothing.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:31:17 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] writing programs...
>Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:10:08 -0700
>From: "A. Batishko" <abatish@utah-inter.net>
>Subject: RE: writing programs...
>
> > Yes, that's fairly atrocious.
>
>Yes, I believe that part of the problem is that I'm using STL lists
Of course you are; our TL isn't high enough for jump drive yet. =)
<g,d,r!>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 06:42:24 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
on 2/27/01 3:05 PM, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance at a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
wrote:
>> One thing...if you can avoid using Windowze-Only features (as, alas,
>> Heaven and Earth did) then a Mac port of your software is relatively
>> straightforward using RealBASIC.
>
> Okay, can someone give me some pointers on what to avoid? I am going
> to work in VB for my next project and portability is very high on my list of
> priorities.
>
>
I would recommend the use 'Option Explicit' to get your variables declared,
minimize the use of variants, and minimize the use of controls.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3750
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3751
Date: | 2/28/01 12:56:54 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 28 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3751
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: New Traveller software project
test
RE: New Traveller software project
Re: JTAS question
OT: Now that was weird
Arrghh!!
RE: Arrghh!!
RE: Arrghh!!
RE: Arrghh!!
RE: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
RE: Arrghh!!
Re: test
Re: test
Re: New Traveller software project
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3750
Re: What could go wrong?
Re: New Traveller software project
V&V Errata
Re: V&V Errata
RE: V&V Errata
Re: V&V Errata
Re: New Traveller software project
Re: V&V Errata
VB comments (OT by the way)
Re: Sayat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:42:07 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
Bruce Johnson wrote:
> One thing...if you can avoid using Windowze-Only features (as, alas,
> Heaven and Earth did) then a Mac port of your software is relatively
> straightforward using RealBASIC.
I have also recently started a VB Traveller project (maybe its
just that time of the year) and I may want to port it to obscure
O/Ss like Mac ... what "Windowze-Only" features give porting
problems? I'd like to avoid them if possible. (Also, I am
storing data in an Access database [1] and using SQL commands
where possible. Is their a Mac equivalent?)
[1] = For PC does *not* require Access be installed to use Access
database.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:17:03 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: test
testing, 1,2,3..
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:17:24 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
At 02:42 PM 02/28/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > One thing...if you can avoid using Windowze-Only features (as, alas,
> > Heaven and Earth did) then a Mac port of your software is relatively
> > straightforward using RealBASIC.
>
>I have also recently started a VB Traveller project (maybe its
>just that time of the year) and I may want to port it to obscure
>O/Ss like Mac ... what "Windowze-Only" features give porting
>problems? I'd like to avoid them if possible. (Also, I am
>storing data in an Access database [1] and using SQL commands
>where possible. Is their a Mac equivalent?)
>
>[1] = For PC does *not* require Access be installed to use Access
>database.
If you can locate a copy of FileMaker Pro, you can develop a cross platform
database for FMP. Or, if you have the developer's kit, you can create a
stand alone database that does not require any specific software on the end
user's part.
Kurt Feltenberger
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
~Stephen Decatur
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:20:44 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Re: JTAS question
knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>Was the Contact: Darrians article from JTAS #14 reprinted in Best of JTAS
>#4?
Yes, according to the _Traveller Periodical Bibliography_. no.4, pp.8-10
Does that help?
tc
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:24:49 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: OT: Now that was weird
Perhaps you computer geniuses can help me with this.
The Shiny New Computer is up and running, and is everything I had hoped
for. However, for the last two days, I was unable to post to the TML! I
was getting messages, but nothing was posting.
I'm stumped. It didn't affect my other email lists.. any clues? I'm
using Eudora v3.0.3
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Some days, you just can't get rid of a bomb!"
-Adam West, as Batman
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:43:23 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Arrghh!!
Now I'm getting two copies of every message! Is there any way to check to
see if I'm subscribed twice?
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:03:29 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Arrghh!!
Try sending a who command to majordomo
Dean
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Douglas Berry [mailto:gridlore@mindspring.com]
> Sent: 28 February 2001 15:43
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Arrghh!!
>
>
> Now I'm getting two copies of every message! Is there any
> way to check to
> see if I'm subscribed twice?
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:03:47 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Arrghh!!
Try sending a who command to majordomo :)
Dean
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Douglas Berry [mailto:gridlore@mindspring.com]
> Sent: 28 February 2001 15:43
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Arrghh!!
>
>
> Now I'm getting two copies of every message! Is there any
> way to check to
> see if I'm subscribed twice?
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:45:06 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: RE: Arrghh!!
At 04:03 PM 02/28/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>Try sending a who command to majordomo :)
Now that was e-vile...
Kurt Feltenberger
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
~Stephen Decatur
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:34:14 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
Thanks
- --
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Steve
> (Bloo) Daniels
> Sent: 27 February 2001 00:26
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
>
>
>
>
> Mark Preston wrote:
>
> > >Bloo said:
> > > The original poster said that in the U.S. the phrase "Dungeons
> > > & Dragons" is protected by US copyright law, but is protected
> > > by trademark law (and not copyright law) in Europe.
> > >
> > > That statement is incorrect.
> > >
> > I am surprised to hear that - although I admit that I got
> the quote
> > from a magazine, not a legal ruling. Could you let me
> know what the
> > situation actually is?
>
> "Dungeons & Dragons" is a registered trademark in the US.
> http://tess.uspto.gov/bin/showfield?f=doc&state=5roev8.3.4
>
> The phrase "Dungeons & Dragons" is not copyrighted, indeed,
> it is incapable of earning a copyright because it is not an
> "original work of authorship", which was the reasoning the
> original poster used, IIRC, albeit misapplied. It is the same
> reason that you cannot copyright a title. As far as copyright law
> is concerned, I can publish a book called "Dungeons & Dragons".
> But it is very likely that this action, permissible by copyright,
> would be impermissible according to *trademark* law.
> Different beasts. Sometimes similar results.
>
> bloo
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:48:29 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Arrghh!!
Sorry, Penguin-Boy couldn't resist :)
Muahahaha
Dean
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kurt Feltenberger [mailto:kurt@blazenet.net]
> Sent: 28 February 2001 16:45
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: RE: Arrghh!!
>
>
> At 04:03 PM 02/28/2001 +0000, you wrote:
> >Try sending a who command to majordomo :)
>
> Now that was e-vile...
>
>
> Kurt Feltenberger
>
> "To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
> may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
> ~Stephen Decatur
>
>
> mailto:kurt@blazenet.net
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:19:36 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: test
Got it
Tod
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Berry" <gridlore@mindspring.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 7:17 AM
Subject: test
> testing, 1,2,3..
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:19:46 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: test
Got it
Tod
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Douglas Berry" <gridlore@mindspring.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 28, 2001 7:17 AM
Subject: test
> testing, 1,2,3..
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
>
> "Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
> sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:47:32 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
Tod Glenn wrote:-
>I would recommend the use 'Option Explicit' to get your variables declared,
>minimize the use of variants, and minimize the use of controls.
Is that a hint? ;-)
Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm
"A people should know when they're conquered"
Quintus Magnus, Regimental Commander, Army of the North
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:59:57 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3750
>>VB is a good programming language for people who don't know how to
>>program... and if that gets a few more people programming good (or bad)
>>Traveller software then I'm all for it.
>If we follow that logic... The Anarchist Cookbook is a good introduction
>to chemistry - for those people that don't know a thing about
>chemistry... and if it gets a few more people manufacturing explosive
>compounds (which occasionally produce pretty patterns), then I'm all for
>it!
Sorry, but that is simply complete and utter b*ll*cks! There simply is no
point of comparison.
>>VB may not be the most advanced, logical or quick programing language, but
>>in my opinion it is just the snobbery of 'professional' programmers who
>>treat it with disdain.
>Yeah, write off the opinions of people who actually _know_ what they are
>talking about, and base their opinions on decades of
>_real_world_experience_ - just because they don't agree with you. Smart
>move.
I'll certainly write off your opinions.
It seems to be an industry trend to slag off VB and if your a professional
programmer you've simply got to dislke VB.
To be honest the thoughtful and coherent way you put forward your argument
isn't going to change my opinion.
>VB is, by any thorough and objective assessment, a piece of crap. It
>will open up programming to the masses, and give birth to generations of
>pathetic "programmers" who will churn out billions of lines of absolutely
>_shocking_ code. Herd mentality will take over at some point, and the
>mob will declare itself to be "the" force to be reckoned with (the word
>"standard" will be bandied about a lot). Bolstered by sheer weight of
>numbers, they will then attack and marginalise the proponents of other
>programming languages on grounds totally without merit, but which sound
>_really_ good when chanted by a few million drones in unison. Those with
>clue will hide to avoid being trampled as the herd rushes by... and then
>plunges off the edge of a very large cliff. Once the dust has settled,
>those with clue will pick themselves up, brush themselves off, and,
>humming a cheerful but irreverent tune, resolutely set about the task of
>repairing the damage and making the world a _better_ place.
Another irrational and pointless paragraph.
>It is the _quality_ of code that is important, not the _quantity_ of code.
I agree with this statement entirely, although, I don't really know what it
has to do with the above?
Any programming language is likely to have good programmers and bad
programmers. I don't mean to be insulting, but if you program like you form
the basis of an argument then I take it you fall into the latter catagory.
Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm
"A people should know when they're conquered"
Quintus Magnus, Regimental Commander, Army of the North
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:14:21 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: What could go wrong?
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:
> Nah! The weird noise will start when you try to get Jezebel aboard
> the _Walk_.
>
> Bruce's character is on a mission to pickup a new crewmember,
> Jezebel, but Jezebel has "air/raftiphobia", and she's 14 days deep
> into the wilderness. Jez is going to insist on walking out rather
> than riding the _Walk_. Waiting on her for two weeks won't help the
> _Mae Lee's_ bottom line very much, but leaving her will cost them
> 50,000 credits. The ship's doctor is already thinking about ways to
> knock Jez out so she can be carried aboard and transported...shades
> of Mr. T! <g>
>
> Don't you love it when a plan comes together?
>
> Eris
Oh, lordy, I'm the pilot; that makes me Murdock!!!
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:24:52 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
Trevor, Peter wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>> One thing...if you can avoid using Windowze-Only features (as, alas,
>> Heaven and Earth did) then a Mac port of your software is relatively
>> straightforward using RealBASIC.
>
>
> I have also recently started a VB Traveller project (maybe its
> just that time of the year) and I may want to port it to obscure
> O/Ss like Mac ... what "Windowze-Only" features give porting
> problems? I'd like to avoid them if possible. (Also, I am
> storing data in an Access database [1] and using SQL commands
> where possible. Is their a Mac equivalent?)
Not with MS apps, there isn't.
As someone else mentioned FileMaker Pro (available from, amazingly enough, Filemaker.com ) will work.
Realbasic Pro comes with a SQL database component. Strictly sticking to SQL instead of Accmess should work.
I feel about Access what Frankie feels about VB, so I'll shut up now.
(All I can say is that a programmer that stored the data and the code together in one %$@#! file should be drug out, shot, revived, tenderly nursed back to health, and shot again.)
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:30:20 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: V&V Errata
Just noticed that page 12 of V&V mislabelled the map.
What it calls the Domain of Deneb, does not contain
Deneb at all. ;-)
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:45:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: V&V Errata
On Wed, 28 Feb 2001, Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote:
> Just noticed that page 12 of V&V mislabelled the map.
> What it calls the Domain of Deneb, does not contain
> Deneb at all. ;-)
Every time I see this subject line, I can't help but think, "What does
Villains and Vigilantes have to do with Traveller?"
Kiri, lol
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:52:20 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: V&V Errata
>> Just noticed that page 12 of V&V mislabelled the map.
>> What it calls the Domain of Deneb, does not contain
>> Deneb at all. ;-)
>
>Every time I see this subject line, I can't help but think, "What does
>Villains and Vigilantes have to do with Traveller?"
>
>Kiri, lol
I was wondering the same thing LOL 8P
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:00:26 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: V&V Errata
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> Every time I see this subject line, I can't help but think, "What does
> Villains and Vigilantes have to do with Traveller?"
Me too. Oh how I wish I had a copy still.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:54:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
In mail you write:
> htp wrote:
>> VB is, by any thorough and objective assessment, a piece of crap.
>> It will open up programming to the masses, and give birth to
>> generations of pathetic "programmers" who will churn out billions
>> of lines of absolutely _shocking_ code.
>
> I take it you miss the days where the only computers were big
> hulking mainframes tended to by acolyte-like operators, and
> dispise the personal computer (PC, Mac, etc) that gave computing
> power to the masses.
>
> Computing *isn't* some sort of modern religion who's secrets
> should only be revealed to the privileged few who can prove
> themselves worthy! Anything (including VB) that opens up
> computing to the masses is a *good* thing. Yes, there will be a
> lot more third-rate programs flying about, but many more people
> than now will be empowered ... And at the end of the day that's
> the whole point of computing. Speaking as a professional
> programmer I think your ivory tower viewpoint does our profession
> a dis-service.
Sorry, but untill you know what you are doing you aren't "empowered".
Instead, you are merely able to dig bigger and deeper holes that will
require outside help to get out of.
Programming is a *skill*. A complex skill. And expecting Joe Blow to be
able to do it without lots of training is doing him a *major*
dis-service.
I agree that programming shouldn't be made overly complex. But
over-simplification is usually *worse*. And one of the lessons that
folks seem to have the hardest time picking up, even *with* some
training is that details matter.
>> It is the _quality_ of code that is important, not the
>> _quantity_ of code.
>
> Piffle! Its the *utility* of the code that is important.
> Quality code is worthless if it isn't useful to someone, and
> while bad quality code might not be as useful as it could be it
> can still be better than nothing.
I've had to rescue folks who were trying to program *far* beyond their
skill level. And in their cases, poor programming was *worse* than
nothing.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:12:10 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: V&V Errata
>Me too. Oh how I wish I had a copy still.
I noticed they had some for sale at Fantasy Games Unlimited's web site when
I was there the other day:
http://www.fantasygamesunlimited.com/products14.htm#1401
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:40:40 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: VB comments (OT by the way)
Hello Folks,
After seeing the comments being bandied about, I figured I'd put my two
credits worth into the discussion...
First off - I went to school for programming. It turns out that I was
unable to find a job in programming, and settled for working as a computer
operator rather than move away from my family in pursuit of my dreams.
I've been getting involved in Visual Basic via self-teaching. What I found
was that until I've actually learned what it is that I need to know, I will
*always* be programming at a level that is below what I want to be at.
This means then, that I need to either read the manuals I've purchased, or
ask some kindly soul "hey, how do you do this..." or "Hey, thanks for the
tip, now tell me why that worked".
Secondly - What ceral do people eat? What?!!! We all don't eat the same
ceral? Good Lord! What do you mean you don't eat a ceral from Kelloggs?
Ahhhhhh, I see, different things appeal to different people right? And let
me guess. There is your way, and then there is the right way (mine of
course). That means that if you don't follow my way, you must be an idiot?
That secondly bit was heavy handed, and it wasn't intended to be
specifically insulting. It was meant to show the "insulting" aspect of
anyone who uses that train of thought. If VB is a grade schooler's
language, then I guess I should be glad that there is in fact, a grade
schooler's product out there, because I most certainly don't feel like
trying to learn any of the other more complex languages on my own spare
time. It would be a major pain in the buttocks for me to have to go to
college again, spending a LOT of money learning how to use a "professional"
language - just for hobby programming. Granted the version of Visual Basic
I have is the industrial version <grin>, but I got it cheaply and legally.
So - if you guys don't mind?
Either be part of the solution, or you are part of the problem. Instead of
knocking those of us who want to create a program, help us. And if you
feel that we need some extra help to achieve standards of programming you
feel should exist - perhaps helping us by volunteering your time might not
be a bad way to go.
1) you get access to products that may never, due to copyright reasons, see
the light of day.
2) you get that deep down good feeling of helping people to improve
themselves and best of all?
3) you come out looking like a nice guy <grin>.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:50:02 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Sayat
Loren Wiseman wrote:
> I need the Sayat writeup immediately, or I'm going to have to drop it from
> the book -- CCing TML in case I don' have your correct e-mail address.
I don't know if I want Ian to send Loren the writeup or not...
Well, the Sayat really *should* be printed into canon. Please Ian, hurry...
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3751
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3752
Date: | 2/28/01 2:44:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 28 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3752
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Sayat
Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Re: OT: Now that was weird
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
RE: OT: Now that was weird
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Sayat
=?utf-8?B?UkU6IE9UOiAgTm93IHRoYXQgd2FzIHdlaXJk?=
Adjutant Products
Re: Sayat
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:51:57 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Sayat
Ian wrote:
> With much regret, I must tell you that you are going to have to drop it from
> the book.
>
> Kenji did not appear to be completely happy with the IP implications of the
> Sayat turning up in a SJG product.
Darn! :-(
Well, the IP thing would have been rather messy...
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:36:38 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
By now, many of you have already heard about the 6.4 earthquake just
southwest of Seattle this morning. We felt it all the way down here in
Corvallis (OR), which is a good 250 miles south. Considering that this
is only the 2nd earthquake powerful enough to be felt in over 10 years
(in this location), you can just bet it'll be the topic of conversation for
days to come. :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:51:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Mark F. Cook writes:
> By now, many of you have already heard about the 6.4 earthquake just
> southwest of Seattle this morning. We felt it all the way down here in
> Corvallis (OR), which is a good 250 miles south. Considering that this
> is only the 2nd earthquake powerful enough to be felt in over 10 years
> (in this location), you can just bet it'll be the topic of conversation for
> days to come. :^)
More like 6.8. I know several people in the area, actually heard about the
quake while it was happening.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:55:53 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: OT: Now that was weird
On 28 Feb 2001, at 7:24, Douglas Berry wrote:
> Perhaps you computer geniuses can help me with this.
>
> The Shiny New Computer is up and running, and is everything I had hoped
> for. However, for the last two days, I was unable to post to the TML! I
> was getting messages, but nothing was posting.
>
> I'm stumped. It didn't affect my other email lists.. any clues? I'm
> using Eudora v3.0.3
No idea. Sounds like one of those things which a friend of mine calls "a
computer thing" - something that won't work that suddenly fixes itself for no
apparent reason.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:00:27 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
On 28 Feb 2001, at 13:36, Mark F. Cook wrote:
> By now, many of you have already heard about the 6.4 earthquake just
> southwest of Seattle this morning. We felt it all the way down here in
> Corvallis (OR), which is a good 250 miles south. Considering that this
> is only the 2nd earthquake powerful enough to be felt in over 10 years
> (in this location), you can just bet it'll be the topic of conversation for days
> to come. :^)
It's things like this that make the Pacific Rim such an interesting place. :)
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:06:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Rupert Boleyn writes:
> It's things like this that make the Pacific Rim such an interesting place.
> :)
Nod, if it weren't for the quakes the absence of tornadoes, hurricanes, and
other interesting weather would make it positively boring.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:16:23 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> More like 6.8.
Some Seattle radio stations are reporting it as a 7.0.
Sounds like a small difference but the difference between
a 6.4 and a 7.0 is huge!
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 22:22:44 -0000
From: "Alistair J. R. Young" <avatar@arkane.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: OT: Now that was weird
Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> No idea. Sounds like one of those things which a friend of mine calls
"a
> computer thing" - something that won't work that suddenly
> fixes itself for no apparent reason.
Ah, a heisenbug!
Alistair
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:30:17 -0800
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
>Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
>> More like 6.8.
>
>Some Seattle radio stations are reporting it as a 7.0.
>Sounds like a small difference but the difference between
>a 6.4 and a 7.0 is huge!
>
>bloo
The USGS is recording the quake as a 6.8 The epicenter is reported to
be 11 miles NE of Olympia and is 25-29 miles underground.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:32:15 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Sayat
Ian or Katts wrote:
> With much regret, I must tell you that you are going to have to drop it from the book.
>
> Kenji did not appear to be completely happy with the IP implications of the Sayat turning up in a SJG
> product.
Great, so after all this time I've been a member of TML,
I *still* have no idea what the Sayat are or aren't. I'm
going to have to stop wondering what they are and start
ignoring any references to them.
Since I doubt we're going to see GURPS Traveller: Sayat,
what is Kenji worried about? Must the Sayat loiter in
the purgatory for all non-canon material?
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:23:37 +1100
From: =?utf-8?B?UGF1bCBIYXJyaXM=?= <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: =?utf-8?B?UkU6IE9UOiAgTm93IHRoYXQgd2FzIHdlaXJk?=
As soon as you start looking at the problem, the nature of the problem
changes....
- -----Original Message-----
From: Alistair J. R. Young [mailto:avatar@arkane.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 9:23 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: OT: Now that was weird
Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> No idea. Sounds like one of those things which a friend of mine calls
"a
> computer thing" - something that won't work that suddenly
> fixes itself for no apparent reason.
Ah, a heisenbug!
Alistair
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:40:02 -0700
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov>
Subject: Adjutant Products
Fellow TMLers:
I need to correspond with anyone who has any of these "Adjutant" vehicle
products for Traveller and Striker:
Air Cushion *
Aircraft, Rotary & Fixed Wing
Exotic
Grav *
Infantry Weapons
Orbital Assault & Landing Craft *
Track Laying
Waterborne
Wheeled Vehicles, Service/ Spt
Wheeled, Combat
* High Priority
Thanks for your assistance.
Eric
Eric T. Holmes
eholmes@lanl.gov holmberg@thuntek.net
7am to 4pm Mountain Time 6pm to Midnight Mountain Time
IMTU: he+, tc+, tm, tne, t4, tg, tt, to, ru, ge, 3i+, c+, jt, au, st, ls+,
pi+, ta+,
as+, va+, dr+, sa, kk--, hi--, so++, zh, vi, da, sy, hu
(sa = other sapients, hu = other humani)
Lacedaemon, we have done our duty.
"Any referee or gamemaster in a space based RPG that
cannot wipe out an entire party of player characters
without resorting to 'bad guys with guns' just isn't trying."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:41:23 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Sayat
Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote:
>
> Ian or Katts wrote:
>
>
>> With much regret, I must tell you that you are going to have to drop it from the book.
>>
>> Kenji did not appear to be completely happy with the IP implications of the Sayat turning up in a SJG
>> product.
>
>
> Great, so after all this time I've been a member of TML,
> I *still* have no idea what the Sayat are or aren't. I'm
> going to have to stop wondering what they are and start
> ignoring any references to them.
>
> Since I doubt we're going to see GURPS Traveller: Sayat,
> what is Kenji worried about? Must the Sayat loiter in
> the purgatory for all non-canon material?
>
> bloo
You asked for it. Don't say I didn't warn you. Do not open the Happy Fun
ball. Do not allow the Happy Fun Ball to remain in contact with the
skin. Do not taunt the Happy Fun Ball
herewith, the Sayat: (somewhat mangled in formatting)
===================================================================================
From kenji@accessone.com Sat May 3 08:44:58 1997
Date: Fri, 2 May 1997 20:44:06 -0800
From: Kenji Schwarz <kenji@accessone.com>
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Contact: Sayat (I: Biology)
Turns out that in the fermenting vacuity of my head, I have a *lot* of
detail accreting around the idea of a 'Hiveroid' minor race of humaniti. I
thought I'd start writing it up as a series of shorter, sub-topical posts
and see if people are interested in reading more.
At this point, I haven't given the species an astrographical location -- an
isolated cluster of 2-3 systems someplace to trailing of the Imperium makes
the most sense, but they were originally (mis)conceived of as a Zhodani
client state, so I'm still trying to think up a rationale for how that
could be explained.
Further 'chapters' I have in mind would be II: Modern Society, III:
Homeworld, IV: History, V: Politics; VI: Adventure Hooks.
I've borrowed quite a few ideas from various sources, both published and
not; hopefully it will be obvious where I've done so, and credit is due to
my sources. Generally, I've tried not to point out what aspects of the
Sayat are Hiver-influenced and which might be 'native', but rather to
present observations and comparisons and leave the whole thing a bit
mysterious.
I really encourage people to respond and comment on this, either on the
list or by email. I'm pretty flame-retardant (flame-retarded?) and think
the best criticism can often be the harshest criticism, so pull no punches.
Biology is not my strong field by any means -- I'd especially like to hear
corrections and new ideas from those on the list who are more knowledgable
about this than I.
********************************************************************************
The Sayat
A Minor Race of Humaniti
Part I: Biology
The Sayat are a subspecies of humaniti found on Marhach (Milieu 0 UPP
A665887-A ?), a cold but essentially Earthlike planet located well beyond
the Imperial frontier.
APPEARANCE:
The Sayat are somewhat smaller than the typical Solomani or Vilani --
averaging 1.6 m tall, and massing approximately 55 kg. They have slender
frames and long limbs; while their fingers are exceptionally long, the
palms and feet are disproportionately small.
Skulls are brachycephalic, with generally round or oval upper faces, high
cheekbones, and a slightly triangular, pointed jaw and chin structure.
Their convex, high-bridged noses are fairly small but well-adapted to
warming air. Eyes are markedly large, exhibit reflective retinas (like
Terran cats or dogs), have large dark irises and minimal albumen, and are
protected from cold and snow by thick, heavy lashes.
Dentition is slightly different than that found in the Solomani and Vilani
strains of humaniti: the Sayat lack "wisdom teeth," and their first
semimolars (both uper and lower) are canine in form. In general, the teeth
are smaller and harder than those of other humans.
Hair is coarse, thick, straight, and jet black in color, slightly
bluish-tinged. With age, it greys and eventually turns a snowy white.
Despite the cool climate of the world, they have minimal facial and body
hair.
The Sayat have a generous layer of subcutaneous fat, which provides
insulation on their cold homeworld -- and in emergencies, can readily be
converted into energy. This layer gives them a sleek, rounded appearance,
despite their thin frames.
Their homeworld orbits a cooler star than Sol, but due to its thin
atmosphere (almost lacking an ultraviolet ray-blocking layer) and weak
electromagnetic field, the planet is a relatively high-radiation
environment. Accordingly, Sayat 'pseudomelanin' (biochemically distinct
from the melanin found in both Solomani and Vilani subspecies) is an
efficient absorber of UV radiation and producer of necessary vitamin D.
This pseudomelanin imparts a coppery skin complexion with a distinct
reddish tint. When exposed to sunlight for any length of time, the Sayat
tan to a vivid dark russet color. Nicknames for the Sayat among their
interstellar neighbors often refer to this feature.
Another physiological change from the original human template is the
so-called "muting" of the vocal apparatus. Essentially, Sayat vocal cords
do not vibrate except under extreme stress (i.e., shouting, screaming),
preventing the production of normal speech sounds. Rather, the Sayat
"whisper." This feature has had significant effect on their language and
communication habits; however, they are not strictly speaking mute.
PHYSIOLOGY:
Due to the lower gravity of their homeworld, Sayat are typically a little
less muscular than the human norm; however, they have slightly faster
reaction times. They do have measurably greater endurance and stamina than
the Solomani or Vilani, but their strange circadian rhythms may cause
exhaustion at inopportune times, even after adaptation to a local standard.
Tolerance for low temperatures is usually much greater than usual for
Solomani or Vilani. They may find dense atmospheres, particularly those
with a high oxygen content, difficult to breathe.
There is an extremely high occurance of left-handedness or ambidexterity in
the population -- in fact, only about 30-40% of the population is strongly
right-handed. A similar feature is found among the Darrian of the Spinward
Marches, in whose case it is hypothesized that a much larger than average
bridge between the two lobes of the brain contributes to their increased
inventiveness, imagination, and mathematical, musical, and artistic
ability. The same might be supposed of the Sayat, though these qualities
are not the overt cultural fixation that they are for the Darrian. In any
case, tools and implements are customarily designed to be used with either
hand.
SENSES are roughly equivalent to those of other subspecies of humaniti,
though vision is adapted to lower levels of light (c. 52% of Terra's).
Accordingly, glare-cutting prostheses are standard wear in local daytime
(especially in snowy or icy terrain) and even in Terran-normal lighting
conditions; night-vision is superior to Solomani and Vilani. A form of
color-blindness (or color-vagueness) is quite common in varying degrees.
Sense of smell and taste is slightly less acute than the human norm as
well; hearing tends to be sharper.
BIOCHEMICAL and cellular-level changes due to geneering are quite extensive.
The Sayat have several unusual or unique enzymes which aid in protein
synthesis; they are able to metabolize one extra amino acid, apparently
native to their homeworld. Related to this biochemistry is a
characteristic body odor, which is cannot be perceived by many humans.
Other species may be able to quite well, however; the Vargr tend to find
the smell pleasant (perhaps contributing to their tendency to regard many
Sayat as having high 'charisma'); the K'kree, on the other hand, find the
Sayat odor highly offensive and nauseating ("like wet blood").
Sayat blood types (A, N, O, S, Z) are often compatible or semi-compatible
with a few Solomani, one Vilani, and several Zhodani types.
Their lungs are human-sized, but have a more efficient oxygen-extracting
mechanism, permitting normal activity in their slightly thinner and
oxygen-poor atmosphere.
There is somewhat greater reiteration of genes than in most human species,
providing good "backup" against genetic damage by virus or radiation.
This is an unusual feature in modern geneered species, and serves as the
basis for speculation that the Sayat are one of Grandfather's experiments,
and were not created by the Hiver and/or Solomani in more recent times.
REPRODUCTION:
The most obvious change, and in some respects the most drastic change, from
the human norm is in the realm of reproduction. The Sayat are a
monosexual, homozygotic species. Two ova from different individuals are
able to merge and form a fertilized embryo; mechanical means must be used
to introduce one ovum into the uterus of the birth parent. Normally ova of
a single individual are incapable of fertilizing one another, but
exceptions are not unheard of, and as a result, spontaneous pregnancies are
account for perhaps 1 in 100,000 births. Such parthenogenetic children are
genetically identical copies of their birth parent. Live offspring are
born after a gestation period of about 258.5 standard days. Multiple
births are extremely rare -- maybe one in ten million. They are not
inter-fertile with other human species (either males or females).
Fertility -- or at least successful impregnation -- is relatively low, and
the natural rate of population growth is slow. While this hampers
expansion on the interstellar scale, it has slowed the pace of development
so that the integration and efficiency of the homeworld and of colonies is
very high. Perhaps due to the long lack of other human species to which to
compare themselves, they see nothing wrong with their rate of population
growth, and have never particularly sought to increase fertility by medical
or social means.
LIFESPAN:
A biochemical mechanism similar to that present in the Vlazhdumecta give a
lifespan considerably longer than the human norm. In premodern times,
natural lifespans of 80 years were normal; at the current state of medical
science, this has been pushed up to 100 years as the average. They have
not (yet) produced anything directly equivalent to the anagathic treatments
known to some other human subspecies, however. Senescence usually does not
start until about the age of 60 (coinciding with menopause), and is very
limited until the last 2-3 years of life -- during which time the physical
and mental breakdown is quite rapid. As among the Vlazhdumecta, this is
usually the signal for suicide.
Puberty and mental maturity usually begins around the age of 15, and full
physical maturity is reached in about 5 years. In this regard, they are
somewhat slower to mature than many other subspecies of humaniti of a
comparable level of socio-technological development
DIET:
The Sayat are omnivorous, tending towards carnivorism -- and traditionally,
blood-drinking. One of their enzymatic adaptations allows digestion of a
native Marhachian amino acid (otherwise unusable), after it has been
semi-metabolized into the blood of other geneered Terran organisms present
on the planet. Thus, the ancient Sayat herding economy is based on the
production of blood as much as of milk and meat. Animal blood is still a
traditional, ceremonial drink in Sayat culture, serving something of the
same function that champagne has in Solomani culture.
Generally speaking, Sayat are able to extract nutrition from a fairly wide
variety of biochemistries; greater than is typical for humaniti, in any
case. A flexible metabolism permits easy and safe fluctuation between
fasting and feasting; the lipids used for energy storage in the Sayat body
are efficient and rapidly convertible back into energy. Even without
advance preparation, a Sayat in good health can often go without food for
up to a standard week and suffer negligible ill effects. Their metabolism
is also able to step up into a faster-burning, high-energy level, which
permits comfortable activity in cold climates with limited technological
assistance, so long as a steady supply of food is available. Sayat who are
in this "prolonged overdrive" are constantly nibbling on something.
In general, Sayat gain and loose weight rapidly, and it shows up clearly in
their appearance. Much small talk and polite conversation in Sayat society
revolves around commenting on one another's plumpness or bonyness.
REST:
Their home planet has an extremely slow period of axial revolution -- just
over 103 standard hours. The Sayat have adapted to this environment by
largely doing away with anything recognizable as a circadian rhythm.
Season and lattitude (lighting levels) and temperature affect these
patterns, but it is hard to predict any individual's activity. In any
given period of 103 hours, a Sayat will sleep for 39, engage in
low-activity rest and relaxation for 20, work for 32, and have one or more
shorter bursts of intense work activity totalling 12 hours -- on the
average. Note that the metabolic flexibility and greater stamina permits
extremely prolonged periods of exercise -- 24 hour work shifts are not
considered particularly onerous by most Sayat (though they're not popular,
either).
PSIONICS:
The Sayat seem to have approximately the same frequency and levels of
psionic talents as other branches of humaniti. As with the Zhodani,
though, early childhood screening and training causes more talented
individuals to be found, creating the impression of there being 'more
psionics' in the Sayat subspecies.
From kenji@accessone.com Fri May 9 10:49:27 1997
Date: Thu, 8 May 1997 23:01:32 -0800
From: Kenji Schwarz <kenji@accessone.com>
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
Subject: Contact: The Sayat (II: Society)
Here's yet more Sayatiana, freshly coughed up and transcribed. As before,
comments are most welcome. Hell, it's *for* the comments that I'm posting
all this junk.
*****************************************
WORLD BUILDERS' HANDBOOK DESCRIPTION
Social Outlook:
Progressiveness: Progressive attitude, advancing activity
Agressiveness: Defensive attitude, militant activity
Extensiveness: Harmonious attitude, friendly activity
Legal Profile: Undivided uniformity
Overall : 7 Personal Freedom: 5
Weapons : 3 Trade: 8
Criminal: 9 Civil: 9
Somewhat xenophobic; effective +1 law level for foreigners
Cultural Aspects:
Individuality: Some compulsory collective action
Social Mobility: Minimal distinctions of social class
Phys. Mobility: Global travel common; "global village"
communications
Worldview: Primarily rational, with some holdovers of
superstition
Emotionalism: Free expression except in front of strangers
Gender Discrimination: n/a
Wealth: Acquired by law; equal incomes
Privacy: Actions open to scrutiny at will by certain
agencies
Modesty/Body Zone: Moderate coverage mandatory (body zone almost
touching)
Value of Sentient Life: Death penalty outlawed
Value of Other Life: All is for human use, but should be humanely
treated
Child-Rearing: Group responsibility (commune)
Honesty: Widely accepted ethical code; offenders despised
Work Ethic: Work is an end in itself, a source of pleasure
Time: Schedules are flexible
Government Authority: Civil Service Bureaucracy; several councils (all
branches).
*********************************
Sayat social structure and social philosophy are uncannily similar to Hiver
patterns, giving rise to the theory (and widespread popular belief) that
they are the product of a large-scale Hiver "manipulation."
STRUCTURE:
Like the Hiver, individuals live in 'nests' sharing a broad focus of
economic activity or interest (usually), and in which wealth and belongings
are owned communally. The nest is the basic unit of society, rather than
the family (nuclear or otherwise). It is true that in some respects the
nest is similar to the extended family in other human societies, and it is
likely that in earlier times, the 'nest' bore more resemblence to a 'clan,'
with its emphasis on consanguity and shared descent.
Most nests are part of larger 'hives,' the rough equivalents of cities,
corporations, or nations. Governmental structures (both civilian and
military) are also considered nests and hives, and are not particularly
distinguished from other specialized units.
Mobility among nests (and to a slightly lesser extent, hives) is quite high
in the modern era. Most Sayat change their nest affiliation after reaching
maturity and having finished the mandatory stint of 'national service;'
many go on to switch affiliation several times in the course of their life.
Individuals may also live and work separately from their primary nest
affiliation for extended periods of time.
While there are some who shift from nest to nest, sometimes even having
concurrent membership in several, there are no Sayat who are 'nestless'.
Occasionally someone will claim to be without a nest affiliation; other
Sayat, however, will not recognize this claim, and go on treating such an
individual (who is probably mentally ill) as a member of the appropriate
nest and hive. The nest-hive structure of society is so fundamental to
Sayat culture that someone who is not part of it is, almost by definition,
not Sayat -- and possibly a menace to the common good.
GOVERNMENT:
This is best described as a 'civil service bureaucracy'. There is a single
large hive which can be called 'the Government,' which fulfills all the
functions of the 'state' in other human societies, as well as playing many
additional roles. The 'Government Hive' is made up of a large number of
smaller, specialized nests, each one focused on a particular aspect or
function of managing society and furthering the advance of civilization.
This hive acts as the chief mechanism for redistributing capital within the
economy; it "taxes" other hives and after using this wealth to support its
own activities, "invests" or "subsidizes" those of others. Large amounts
of public work is handled by "subcontracting" in this manner, and the line
between "public" and "private" endeavours is often so blurry as to be not
worth examining.
Forcing Sayat political systems into our own molds, one can view this hive
as the executive branch of government; it also has a great deal of what we
might call legislative and judicial authority. However, the legislative
branch is supplemented by frequent recourse to public debate and referenda
- -- and given the indistinctness of the public versus private spheres,
legislation is highly sensitive to the groundswell or undercurrent of
popular opinion.
The judicial powers and duties of the state work in tandem with the
'judges' or 'mediators' -- private individuals who, based on their
expertise in law and rhetoric, can be called in (or may independently
intercede) to settle conflict between individuals or groups in society.
While these 'judges' are entirely separate from the governmental structure
proper, and do not form specialized 'judicial nests' of their own, they
maintain fairly tight professional links with one another, and can be
considered a sort of parallel political agency, largely free of state
oversight.
ECONOMY AND BUSINESS:
The modern Sayat economy grew out of a communal, redistributive economy,
where the fundamental socioeconomic unit was the 'proto-nest' or (putative)
'clan.' Claims to territory (grazing circuits, hunting territories,
fishing grounds) and the ownership of livestock and enclosures were all
held by the community as a whole, rather than individuals or families.
With technological advances and the development of a global culture, the
precursors of the 'hive' arose to coordinate the more complex interactions,
and something best described as a 'command economy' resulted. Sayat
economic thought has only vague, crude ideas of a 'free market', though
recent contact with other civilizations is slowly beginning to produce
changes in the way they see their economy.
Property and capital is still owned communally, by the nests and hives.
While individual Sayat do have personal belongings and limited amounts of
wealth, their daily needs (food, housing, clothing, transportation, medical
care, power, communications, etc.) are all furnished by the collective.
Long-term projects and investments are undertaken entirely by groups, and
not by individuals. Individuals who are in some way 'over-achievers,' who
are a particular asset to their collective, do get many perks (prime
housing, use of personal vehicles, servants, access to a bigger 'credit
line' and more 'pocket money,' etc.) but have no more inalienable, personal
property than anyone else. Those on the opposite end of the truncated
Sayat social ladder will get stuck with less desireable housing and find
their hive or nest somewhat less willing to pay for their luxuries.
The Sayat were slow in developing a monetary economy; it arose entirely out
of the need to coordinate the activities of independent, hive-sized
collectives in the early modern period. Even today, within a large hive
there is very little exchange carried out with money (either cash or
electronic); most is done by a complicated system of barter and contract,
if need for accounting is perceived at all. Much is done essentially
gratis, 'for the common good.' Within nests, what few transactions take
place are entirely non-monetary.
Various nests and hives are heavily involved in specific industries or
economic activities. Through de facto monopolies and de jure agreements
with the state, many have quasi-governmental authority in their fields of
interest. Any enterprise that is necessary to a significant part of the
population, or is important to them, is certain to be run as a 'public
utility' through some combination of direct governmental control and
'subcontracted' responsibility. Again, the public-private distinction is
fuzzy; the Sayat are not familiar with the concept, in any case.
CHILD-REARING is one aspect of society that differs from the Hiver model,
obviously. While the Sayat are highly K-selected (even more than most
human subspecies), the Hiver are completely the opposite.
Each Sayat nest has a communal nursery and school in which all children
live, are raised, and are educated. Professional caretakers and teachers
do most of the work, but the nest as a whole is constantly and deeply
involved in the child-rearing process -- a Hiver-like "parental instinct"
has largely replaced the human "reproductive instinct." The parent-child
bond is very weak; it is considered a sign of neurosis (at least) for
parents to be possessive or even partial towards their "own" children --
and, vice versa, for children to fixate on their mothers. Rather, adults
exhibit a generalized pride and possessive attitude towards the sum of the
children of their nest and hive.
In larger hives, the component nests often do not maintain their own
nurseries, but there are commonly-shared nurseries for the use of all nests
in a given district or neighborhood. In modern times, the government has
stepped in to regulate child care and education, so as to ensure
standardization of the culture and knowledge imparted.
Infants are not considered "pests" as among the Hiver, but the Sayat do
lack much of the sentimentality of most other human societies toward
children and childhood. For example, in dire emergencies where only some
portion of a group can be saved, the Sayat will gladly sacrifice children
- -- the youngest ones first -- while concentrating on rescuing adults and
the elderly. The Sayat consider that less has been 'invested' in the
young, and being easier to replace than their elders, they are more
disposable.
SEX: This one I leave to the readers' surely fertile imaginations.
"Unusually long fingers" and "mechanical assistance" has already been
introduced; 'muff said. A couple general thoughts, though.
Due to Sayat biology, there's no connection between having sex and having
babies. The first is a matter of entertainment and social bonding with
other adult individuals; the latter, of bonding to your nest, of
contributing to posterity.
Sayat feel strongly that children belong with other children, under the
supervision and care of the nest's nursery/school system, so childbearing
and rearing is far less of a burden on individual parents than in most
other human societies.
Pair-bonding does occur among Sayat, but such 'mated' individuals are not
especially likely to have children with one another (rather than with
anyone else), nor are they expected to; even sexual activity is not a
given, for that matter. There are innumerable other forms of 'personal
relationships'; it is hard to make any generalizations on the matter, for
the reason that the Sayat simply don't attach much importance to such
matters. The key emotional bond for a Sayat is with her nest (and by
extension her hive); colleagues, friends, coworkers, and lovers are not
the less important, but viewed as more transitory, casual, and open to
consideratiosn of expediency.
CULTURAL POLICY:
Like the Hiver, they seek to ensure linguistic and cultural homogeneity: a
broad, fundamental body of shared assumptions, knowledge, and attitudes.
The Sayat regard this as the only possible basis for individuality and
personal freedom -- it provides a common ground for communication,
throughout all of Sayat society, without distinctions of region, social
status, economic power, or the like. To this end, travel and mass
communication are widely encouraged and subsidized by Sayat hives and
nests, particularly the governmental ones. Something very similar to Hiver
"embassies" are found in the form of exchanges, delegations, conferences,
tour groups and the like; the emphasis on exchanging genetic material is
much muted and less conscious, though not entirely absent.
EDUCATION:
The Sayat place an enormous amount of importance on education. The
'nurseries' bear more resemblance to boarding schools; formal teaching
begins at age four, and children are not released from the custodianship of
the nursery until their fifteenth year. For historical reasons, the Sayat
are fairly militaristic, and two years of (ground) military training is
mandatory at this point, followed by another two years of service in the
ground forces, further training in the space forces, or work and education
in some field of 'social importance' -- medicine, disaster readiness,
construction, law enforcement, agriculture and ranching, ditch-digging, or
anything else. Advanced education is then an option which many Sayat take.
Many continue involvement in formal educational programs for decades, as
continuing or returning students.
Numerous specialized schools, institutes, academies, and research centers
exist, again set up on the nest-hive model. At the post-secondary level,
there is generally little formal distinction between "research" and
"teaching;" much of the work at such institutions involves mentoring
arrangements, somewhat similar to apprenticeships. The casual student will
keep her own nest/hive affiliation while attending, and the dedicated
scholar will join the nest/hive as a new member.
PSIONICS:
Despite the prevalence of superstition in the culture, psionics have never
been considered as anything other than phenomena subject to rational,
scientific investigation and application. While psionics do not determine
social status as among the Zhodani (or even Vlazhdumecta), psionic testing
is given to all children, and those who have such talents are given the
necessary training and education to develop and use it. They then go on to
take up roles in society where their talents will be of use -- psychology,
investigation, hazardous materials handling, search and rescue, etc. There
is no particular fear or reverence shown to psionics in society. The
number of psionically-talented individuals is perhaps slightly higher than
among "normal" human populations, but not greatly so, and this may be a
function of careful testing being able to catch a greater number of natural
talents.
DEMOGRAPHICS:
Like the Hiver, Sayat prefer to live in large, compact urban complexes.
Single-building city-arcologies are unknown, but urban buildings do tend to
be enormous and multi-use. The distribution of population among the cities
is fairly even; there is no clear "megapolis" or "main city" on the planet.
Six large cities (with populations between 20 and 60 million) are present
on the surface of Marhach; an additional 35-40 smaller cities, each with
several million inhabitants, are scattered around the planet. There are
relatively few small cities and towns; less than 9% of the planet's
population lives in such settlements.
However, it is customary to maintain rural cottages, resort villages,
camps, dachas, spas, and the like, either individually or as a group; one's
time is often split between "city" and "country" in this way, depending on
the season, work necessities, and personal preference. For all but a
handful of modern Sayat, one's primary affiliation is considered to be with
the city, rather than the country.
Although farming and ranching are considerably more land-extensive than
among the Hiver, there are still large expanses of "wilderness" territory
on the planet. Small numbers of Sayat continue to live the traditional,
nomadic pastoralist lifestyle. In all, no more than 1% of the planetary
population can be considered rural.
*********************
Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3752
***********************************
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3753
Date: | 3/1/01 1:43:15 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Thursday, March 1 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3753
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Sayat
re: Sayat
Re: JTAS question
Re: V&V Errata
Re: OT: Now that was weird
Re: V&V Errata
RE: New Traveller software project
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: New Traveller software project
Re: test
RE: New Traveller software project
Re: What could go wrong?
Re: V&V
Downport down?
Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
Re: Downport down?
Re: Downport down?
Re: writing programs...
Re: Adjutant Products
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3750
RE: V&V Errata
RE: Beer the New Traveller software project
RE: VB comments (OT by the way)
RE: New Traveller software project
Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:17:22 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Sayat
Bruce Johnson wrote:
> herewith, the Sayat: (somewhat mangled in formatting)
Thanks!!!!
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:17:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Sayat
>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
>Great, so after all this time I've been a member of TML,
>I *still* have no idea what the Sayat are or aren't.
The Sayat are a minor race of some sort that are fascinated with
pelvic-mounted thrusters ... er, weapons systems.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:44:38 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: JTAS question
> >Was the Contact: Darrians article from JTAS #14 reprinted in Best
> of JTAS #4?
>
> Yes, according to the _Traveller Periodical Bibliography_. no.4,
pp.8-10
>
> Does that help?
>
> tc
Yes, it does. Many thanks.
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:55:05 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: V&V Errata
> > Every time I see this subject line, I can't help but think, "What
> does
> > Villains and Vigilantes have to do with Traveller?"
>
> Me too. Oh how I wish I had a copy still.
Heh. I have *three*. (Hey, they were cheap, and it was useful to have
extra copies to loan to the players)
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:07:12 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: Now that was weird
At 7:24 AM -0800 2/28/01, Douglas Berry wrote:
>Perhaps you computer geniuses can help me with this.
>
>The Shiny New Computer is up and running, and is everything I had hoped
>for. However, for the last two days, I was unable to post to the TML! I
>was getting messages, but nothing was posting.
>
>I'm stumped. It didn't affect my other email lists.. any clues? I'm
>using Eudora v3.0.3
Does the "From:" Address match the one you are subscribed to the
mailing list under?
TML doesn't allow posting from unsubscribed addresses. If I post, I
have to be careful to post from my MIT alumni address rather than
from my work addess....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:54:03 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: V&V Errata
> > Just noticed that page 12 of V&V mislabelled the map.
> > What it calls the Domain of Deneb, does not contain
> > Deneb at all. ;-)
>
> Every time I see this subject line, I can't help but think, "What
> does Villains and Vigilantes have to do with Traveller?"
>
> Kiri, lol
Thank you, Lord! I'm not the only one! :-)
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:53:58 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Andrew
> Moffatt-Vallance
> Sent: 28 February 2001 06:45
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
>
[snip]
> But surely thats a training issue, rather than a language
> issue. It would be
> quite possible to give someone minimal training in Delphi,
> set them lose
> and watch them generate code from hell. In this case it
> seems more like
> there are a lot of poorly trained VB programmers than any
> failing of the
> language (uhmm, a definite market niche, more reasons to learn VB).
>
Any programmer can make bad code (and that is the problem, remember).
The problem with VB is that it encourages bad code - in fact some of
the rapid development tools plugged into it actually _produce_ bad
code automatically. Training means that you know how to avoid - but
not always replace - bad code, so it helps. Unfortunately, VB remains
a bad choice for mission-critical software just because it is so easy
to write bad code with.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:21:43 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Yeah, I was at work in my new building in Freemont (A Seattle
neighborhood/burrough/district). Our nice building swayed for a minute or
two but sailed through nicely. My wifes building south of downtown lost
power & being a scarey converted old warehouse shook and had lights and such
fall.
I was kind of amazed with how we both made it through just fine but because
we couldn't get phone calls to each other and cell service was pretty much
down we coudn't know for sure until we made it to the Ferry dock to meet up.
The ferry dock got messed up a good bit, and it took a while to get home.
It's kinda weird to be deprived of all the high tech means of communication.
On the plus side the buses and ferries where free rides for Earthquake day!
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs.
===============
"As far as I'm concerned, being any gender is a drag." -Patti Smith
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:27:12 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>The smallest THe legal CG gear weighs 20kg, has a volume of 30L and
costs
>Cr3000. It also works on a volume of 1.4 m^3, which will tend to make
carrying
>it "interesting".
Oops, forgot about that.(Too long since working with TNE FF&S)
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:16:30 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
Dear Folks -
Henry (htp <htp@metropolis.net.au>) wrote:
[snips an extremely vitriolic response on VB]
Gee, Henry, don't hold back or anything! Let us know your true feelings
about VB. ("Cat's and dogs, living together", etc etc).
Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or
Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.
;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:20:48 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: test
Dear Folks -
Doug wrote:
>testing, 1,2,3..
Doug, Doug, what are you thinking?!! We've already got a flame-fest about
programming languages, why are you trying to invoke another about the
quality of spreadsheet products??
...Oh! I see what you meant...
- - Hyphen
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:24:09 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
Dear Folks -
Stuart wrote:
>Any programming language is likely to have good programmers and bad
>programmers. I don't mean to be insulting, but if you program like you
form
>the basis of an argument then I take it you fall into the latter catagory.
<Mmf!> Chalk up a keyboard kill for Stuart!
- - Hyphen
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:26:19 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: What could go wrong?
Dear Folks -
Bruce despaired:
>Oh, lordy, I'm the pilot; that makes me Murdock!!!
Hey, look on the bright side. You could end up as a regular walk-on in Star
Trek!
- - Hyphen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:42:08 -0600
From: "Brian S. Pauls" <bpauls@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: V&V
No problem. I also own a copy of "Solomani & Aslan," should that become
relevant.
Thanks,
Brian
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Loren Wiseman" <lkw@io.com>
To: <traveller@ient.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 3:17 PM
Subject: V&V
>
> Gentles,
>
> I need to talk to someone who owns Vilani and Vargr. Please respond to
both
> lkw@io.com and gdwgames@aol.com.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
>
> Loren Wiseman
> Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
> Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society
http://jtas.sjgames.com/
> SJ Games
> lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
> (512) 447-7866 VOX
> (512) 447-1144 FAX
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:02:02 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Downport down?
Downport seems to have gone walk about. Anybody got any ideas what's
happened? A handful of pages seem to be still there, but the rest of the
site has disappeared into the mists.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:39:19 +1100
From: Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au>
Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
>
> Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or
> Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.
What about a Cascade premium or Boags Premium, or if you want to go a
bit darker Cooper's Stout?
BTW I can't remember the last time I actually saw Fosters in a pub down
here, it seems to exist only for export.
Phill
- --
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 23:21:23 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Downport down?
Downport.com is in the process of moving to a new server. There may be some
DNS problems in various places as the new info propagates itself. Sorry for
any inconvenience in the meantime. We may also have some email downtime, but
all should be groovy by the weekend.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<><~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.Downport.com - "Traveller Web Portal"
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
> Downport seems to have gone walk about. Anybody got any ideas what's
> happened? A handful of pages seem to be still there, but the rest of the
> site has disappeared into the mists.
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:28:32 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Downport down?
On 28 Feb 2001, at 23:21, SwordWorlder wrote:
> Downport.com is in the process of moving to a new server. There may be some
> DNS problems in various places as the new info propagates itself. Sorry for
> any inconvenience in the meantime. We may also have some email downtime, but
> all should be groovy by the weekend.
Darn and there was me planning my adventure "The Marie Celeste
Website" :*>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:43:04 -0700
From: "A. Batishko" <abatish@utah-inter.net>
Subject: Re: writing programs...
Ok, combining responses here into one e-mail...
Timothy Little wrote:
> No, but they can still have enough to add to an existing route.
> Across the Imperium, there are huge numbers of such additions with a
> cumulative effect substantially greater than that of the subsector
> trade routes themselves.
Ok, I'm starting to wonder if I've misunderstood the rules. The way I
understood it was that you only get an increase in the trade route
classification for multiple routes along the same segment _which are
classified as at least minor routes_. That is, it takes 3 minor routes
(nothing smaller adds in) to make one route of the next size up (feeder?).
That means that any route with a WPN of less than 8 can be ignored because
it can't add up to a route. Am I misunderstanding things?
> You can at least reduce it to O((log n)^2) or so for each planet by
> caching route segments. Probably further reduction with better
> algorithm design, but this is probably sufficient. That improves
> matters greatly for maps of sector size or larger. Distance binning
> reduces the overall map calculation from O(n^2) trade calculations to
> O(n log n). So the overall calculation can be reduced to O(n (log n)^3).
Yeah, I started with caching the reverse of each calculated route (which of
course cut my time in half). Unfortunately, I'd also planned to cache all
subroutes of each calculated route. So, if you get a route from A to B to C,
you also store C-B-A, A-B, B-C, B-A, and C-B, because each of those will
also be the shortest routes as well. Irritatingly enough, this actually
caused an increase in the calculation time. I think that's due to all the
new memory allocations when creating those hordes of routes. I'm going to
have to take another look. It's really quite discouraging. :(
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> For any given world, you can generate all possible routes from
> the world as
> O(dist^2); generating all 10 pc or shorter routes from every world on the
> map is O(n) as long as the map is considerably larger than 10 pc across.
Well shoot, I could calculate trade routes for an entire sector inside of 3
seconds if I only had to calculate routes of 10 pc or less. Again, I may
have misunderstood the rules, but can't a system generate a trade route
regardless of its distance as long as the WTN is 8 or more? Please say I'm
wrong about that, I'd love to see a 10 pc limitation... :)
Jonathan McDermott wrote:
> >Yes, I believe that part of the problem is that I'm using STL lists
>
> Of course you are; our TL isn't high enough for jump drive yet. =)
Ok, congrats to you. I almost never laugh out loud when I'm by myself, but
you managed to get me to do it. :)
By the way, for those who don't know (and care), STL was intended to mean
Standard Template Library, not Slower Than Light...
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 00:40:20 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Adjutant Products
> Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:40:02 -0700
> From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov>
> Subject: Adjutant Products
>
> Fellow TMLers:
>
> I need to correspond with anyone who has any of these "Adjutant" vehicle
> products for Traveller and Striker:
>
<snip>
> Wheeled, Combat
By a strange twist of fate I have a copy of this booklet.
None of the others though I'm afraid.
David Shayne
daveshayne@msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:09:22 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3750
Stuart Ferris wrote :
<snip>
> Sorry, but that is simply complete and utter b*ll*cks! There simply is no
> point of comparison.
<snip>
> I'll certainly write off your opinions.
> It seems to be an industry trend to slag off VB and if your a professional
> programmer you've simply got to dislke VB.
A rational analyst would notice the trend that professional programmers tend
to dislike VB, and deduce that perhaps there is a good reason for this.
They wouldn't just assume it was prejudice.
<snip>
> I don't mean to be insulting, but if you program
> like you form the basis of an argument then I take
> it you fall into the latter catagory.
What was that about pots calling kettles black ?
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:11:30 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: V&V Errata
Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote :
> Just noticed that page 12 of V&V mislabelled the map.
> What it calls the Domain of Deneb, does not contain
> Deneb at all. ;-)
Why should Villians & Vigilantes contain a refeence to Deneb anyway ?
:-)
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 15:47:56 -0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Beer the New Traveller software project
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Phill Webb
Sent: Wednesday, 28 February 2001 7:39 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
>
> Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or
> Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.
What about a Cascade premium or Boags Premium, or if you want to go a
bit darker Cooper's Stout?
BTW I can't remember the last time I actually saw Fosters in a pub down
here, it seems to exist only for export.
Phill
- --
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/
I personally preferred a Dog Bolter with a twist of lemon, though the Brass
Monkey was good too.
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 21:00:16 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: VB comments (OT by the way)
hal@buffnet.net wrote :
> What I found was that until I've
> actually learned what it is that I need to know,
> I will *always* be programming at a level that
> is below what I want to be at.
Now _that's_ the correct attitiude.
I would guess I'm just about at the pinnacle of my career
(heck I'm over 30, I must be on the downhill slide <grin> )
and I am also always worse than I want to be.
> This means then, that I need to either read the manuals I've purchased, or
> ask some kindly soul "hey, how do you do this..." or "Hey, thanks for the
> tip, now tell me why that worked".
Yep, valid choices, though personally I find that after all that you usually
end up figuring it out for yourself by experimenting, and discovering what
the manuals don't tell you.
<snip>
> Granted the version of Visual Basic I have is the
> industrial version <grin>, but I got it cheaply and legally.
> So - if you guys don't mind?
>
> Either be part of the solution, or you are part of the problem.
I, for one, am being part of the solution.
Encouraging people not to use Visual Basic is, IMO, part of that.
<professional-opinion>
Why cripple yourself with a broken language that is really quite hard to use
for anything other than trivial tasks and is only really good for
interacting with Microsoft Office Software?
Java is free, is a much easier and safer language for novices to learn than
Visual Basic, has better libraries (meaning you write less code, which is
always a good thing), doesn't require fancy GUIs if you don't like them, and
works on any platform from OS-390 to Palm Pilot.
Doesn't stop me programming in VB when I have to or when it makes sense, but
where there's a choice, especially when I'm doing stuff for myself, I use
Java.
</professional-opinion>
<snip>
> Instead of knocking those of us who want to create a program, help us.
I have always done so, and not just on this list.
The only reason any _person_ has been knocked on this thread is because of
their attitude, not because of their use of Visual Basic. We may knock their
choice of language, but that does not mean we're knocking the person.
> And if you feel that we need some extra help to achieve
> standards of programming you feel should exist
Oh, they do, they do. If you're interested, go to www.sei.cmu.edu and look
up the Capability Maturity Model for Software (SW-CMM).
> - perhaps helping us by volunteering your time might not
> be a bad way to go.
Again, I have always helped when I can.
And let me use this oppurtunity to say that I'm happy to help any
programmers, no matter what their level, on this list who have questions
related to OO-Design, C++, Java, XML, or web-related technologies. I might
be able to help out with other stuff, but those are the areas I'm dealing
with most at present.
Just bear in my mind, if I don't respond immediately, that paying customers
get priority !
<grin>
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 21:12:01 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or
> Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.
You should try FB.
Speights Old Dark is what I normally drink, when I'm not drinking Guiness.
No-one should ever use Stela Artois though.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 20:35:37 +1100
From: "Jeffrey Malone" <nparker1971@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
Dog Bolter with lemon? Not Redback with lemon? Best place to drink it was
at the Brass Monkey in Northbridge...thumbs down for VB...
J.M.M
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Antony Farrell <Skaran@bigpond.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:47 AM
Subject: RE: Beer the New Traveller software project
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Phill Webb
> Sent: Wednesday, 28 February 2001 7:39 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
>
>
> david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> >
> > Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or
> > Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.
>
> What about a Cascade premium or Boags Premium, or if you want to go a
> bit darker Cooper's Stout?
>
> BTW I can't remember the last time I actually saw Fosters in a pub down
> here, it seems to exist only for export.
>
> Phill
> --
> Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/
>
> I personally preferred a Dog Bolter with a twist of lemon, though the
Brass
> Monkey was good too.
>
> Antony
>
>
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3753
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3754
Date: | 3/1/01 5:55:29 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Thursday, March 1 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3754
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
RE: New Traveller software project
TravellerBrews LIC
RE: Beer the New Traveller software project
RE: What could go wrong?
RE: TravellerBrews LIC
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Re: TravellerBrews LIC
RE: TravellerBrews LIC
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Re: TravellerBrews LIC
Aussie Beer, Picking Fights and Visual Basic
Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:03:27 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
On 28 Feb 2001, at 16:16, Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote:
>
>
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> > More like 6.8.
>
> Some Seattle radio stations are reporting it as a 7.0.
> Sounds like a small difference but the difference between
> a 6.4 and a 7.0 is huge!
If it was a 7.0 there'd be an aweful lot of nothing standing for quite a ways
around the epicentre.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:03:27 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
On 28 Feb 2001, at 14:06, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Rupert Boleyn writes:
>
>
> > It's things like this that make the Pacific Rim such an interesting place. :)
>
> Nod, if it weren't for the quakes the absence of tornadoes, hurricanes, and
> other interesting weather would make it positively boring.
You do live in a quiet part, don't you. Oh that's right, we don't qualify for
hurricanes - they're only storms.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:04:09 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
On 28 Feb 2001, at 14:30, Bill wrote:
> >Anthony Jackson wrote:
> >
> >> More like 6.8.
> >
> >Some Seattle radio stations are reporting it as a 7.0.
> >Sounds like a small difference but the difference between
> >a 6.4 and a 7.0 is huge!
> >
> >bloo
>
> The USGS is recording the quake as a 6.8 The epicenter is reported to
> be 11 miles NE of Olympia and is 25-29 miles underground.
Shallow. That would've been fun for Olympia.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:09:47 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
On 1 Mar 2001, at 21:12, Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
>
> > Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or
> > Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.
>
> You should try FB.
>
> Speights Old Dark is what I normally drink, when I'm not drinking Guiness.
Both fine choices. Prefer Black Macs myself, though.
> No-one should ever use Stela Artois though.
Tried it. IMO it is a waste of money. If you like the _slightly_ bitter
aftertaste Montieths Golden (?) is a better (and cheaper) choice, and if you
want a bit of character Mac's Gold.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 05:33:44 -0500
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: TravellerBrews LIC
Jeez!
The stuff you people drink!
Most of the Aussie and NZ beers taste like they were brewed through a sheep.
(With a few exceptions.)
And Corona?!? Are you ill, man?
What you need is a bottle of Solomani Imperial Stout, brewed by appointment
to the royal court on Capital by Astronopolis Brewing, LIC in the time
honored traditional method and shipped in hand coopered oaken barrels.
(I won't lay the full grain version of this brew on y'all...This is the
quick and dirty version)
Solomani Imperial Stout
Extract Brew
5 Gallon Batch from 6.3 Gal full boil
OG/FG: 1.075-1.090/1.020-1.030
Alc.V: 7.5-8.9
IBU: 75 +/- 5
SRM: 40+
6.6 lbs Muntons Dark LME
5.0 lbs Munton Light DME
12 oz black patent malt
1 lb roast non-malt barley
12 oz 40L caramel malt
1 lb chocolate malt
3 oz Northern Brewer @ 7.5 AAU for 60 min
1 oz Fuggles @ 4.0 AAU for 10 min
Red Star Dry Champagne Yeast, in starter solution
Ferment in primary for 7 weeks @ 70 F
Rack to secondary, 6 weeks @ 70 F
Once you've had a brew from the Astronopolis, you won't want to drink
anything else, unless you know the brewer personally...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:09:11 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Beer the New Traveller software project
Ob-Trav: Sure, adventures traditionally start out with the shadowy patron in
Brubek's, followed by a bar fight...but what the heck is everyone drinking?
Some examples from Andy Slack's Dark Nebula campaign (used without
permission) : Banana Wine and Tall Toad beer.
Dean
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeffrey Malone [mailto:nparker1971@ozemail.com.au]
> Sent: 01 March 2001 09:36
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
>
>
> Dog Bolter with lemon? Not Redback with lemon? Best place
> to drink it was
> at the Brass Monkey in Northbridge...thumbs down for VB...
>
> J.M.M
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Antony Farrell <Skaran@bigpond.com>
> To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:47 AM
> Subject: RE: Beer the New Traveller software project
>
>
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Phill Webb
> > Sent: Wednesday, 28 February 2001 7:39 PM
> > To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> > Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
> >
> >
> > david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> > >
> > > Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a
> Carlton Cold or
> > > Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.
> >
> > What about a Cascade premium or Boags Premium, or if you
> want to go a
> > bit darker Cooper's Stout?
> >
> > BTW I can't remember the last time I actually saw Fosters
> in a pub down
> > here, it seems to exist only for export.
> >
> > Phill
> > --
> > Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/
> >
> > I personally preferred a Dog Bolter with a twist of lemon,
> though the
> Brass
> > Monkey was good too.
> >
> > Antony
> >
> >
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:11:21 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: What could go wrong?
Heh heh heh, Barcley's Protomorphosis Syndrome. And you thought their
customer service was bad...
Dean
> -----Original Message-----
> From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> [mailto:david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au]
> Sent: 01 March 2001 02:26
> To: traveller@ient.com
> Subject: Re: What could go wrong?
>
>
> Dear Folks -
>
> Bruce despaired:
> >Oh, lordy, I'm the pilot; that makes me Murdock!!!
>
> Hey, look on the bright side. You could end up as a regular
> walk-on in Star
> Trek!
>
> - Hyphen
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:47:32 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: TravellerBrews LIC
OMG! Does this make Jeff a Beerhead?
Dean
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greenly, Jeff [mailto:greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu]
> Sent: 01 March 2001 10:34
> To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> Subject: TravellerBrews LIC
>
>
> Jeez!
>
> The stuff you people drink!
>
> Most of the Aussie and NZ beers taste like they were brewed
> through a sheep.
> (With a few exceptions.)
>
> And Corona?!? Are you ill, man?
>
> What you need is a bottle of Solomani Imperial Stout, brewed
> by appointment
> to the royal court on Capital by Astronopolis Brewing, LIC in the time
> honored traditional method and shipped in hand coopered oaken barrels.
>
> (I won't lay the full grain version of this brew on
> y'all...This is the
> quick and dirty version)
>
> Solomani Imperial Stout
> Extract Brew
> 5 Gallon Batch from 6.3 Gal full boil
>
> OG/FG: 1.075-1.090/1.020-1.030
> Alc.V: 7.5-8.9
> IBU: 75 +/- 5
> SRM: 40+
>
> 6.6 lbs Muntons Dark LME
> 5.0 lbs Munton Light DME
> 12 oz black patent malt
> 1 lb roast non-malt barley
> 12 oz 40L caramel malt
> 1 lb chocolate malt
>
> 3 oz Northern Brewer @ 7.5 AAU for 60 min
> 1 oz Fuggles @ 4.0 AAU for 10 min
>
> Red Star Dry Champagne Yeast, in starter solution
>
> Ferment in primary for 7 weeks @ 70 F
> Rack to secondary, 6 weeks @ 70 F
>
> Once you've had a brew from the Astronopolis, you won't want to drink
> anything else, unless you know the brewer personally...
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 01:05:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
In mail you write:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
>> More like 6.8.
>
> Some Seattle radio stations are reporting it as a 7.0.
> Sounds like a small difference but the difference between
> a 6.4 and a 7.0 is huge!
The USGS station in Golden, Colorado reported 7.0. The Tsunami warning
center in Alaska(?) reported 6.2. And the University of Washington
reported 6.4.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 01:07:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
In mail you write:
>>Anthony Jackson wrote:
>>
>>> More like 6.8.
>>
>>Some Seattle radio stations are reporting it as a 7.0.
>>Sounds like a small difference but the difference between
>>a 6.4 and a 7.0 is huge!
>>
>>bloo
>
> The USGS is recording the quake as a 6.8 The epicenter is reported to
> be 11 miles NE of Olympia and is 25-29 miles underground.
Good grief! That's down in the *mantle*, isn't it?
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:09:56 +1100
From: "Jeffrey Malone" <nparker1971@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: TravellerBrews LIC
Brewed through a sheep? Sounds more like NZ beer to me (which is not to
defend many Oz beers...we export the crap so that we won't have to drink it
here...)
One wonders then what beer would taste like if it were brewed through a
penguin...
J.M.M.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Greenly, Jeff <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 9:33 PM
Subject: TravellerBrews LIC
> Jeez!
>
> The stuff you people drink!
>
> Most of the Aussie and NZ beers taste like they were brewed through a
sheep.
> (With a few exceptions.)
>
> And Corona?!? Are you ill, man?
>
> What you need is a bottle of Solomani Imperial Stout, brewed by
appointment
> to the royal court on Capital by Astronopolis Brewing, LIC in the time
> honored traditional method and shipped in hand coopered oaken barrels.
>
> (I won't lay the full grain version of this brew on y'all...This is the
> quick and dirty version)
>
> Solomani Imperial Stout
> Extract Brew
> 5 Gallon Batch from 6.3 Gal full boil
>
> OG/FG: 1.075-1.090/1.020-1.030
> Alc.V: 7.5-8.9
> IBU: 75 +/- 5
> SRM: 40+
>
> 6.6 lbs Muntons Dark LME
> 5.0 lbs Munton Light DME
> 12 oz black patent malt
> 1 lb roast non-malt barley
> 12 oz 40L caramel malt
> 1 lb chocolate malt
>
> 3 oz Northern Brewer @ 7.5 AAU for 60 min
> 1 oz Fuggles @ 4.0 AAU for 10 min
>
> Red Star Dry Champagne Yeast, in starter solution
>
> Ferment in primary for 7 weeks @ 70 F
> Rack to secondary, 6 weeks @ 70 F
>
> Once you've had a brew from the Astronopolis, you won't want to drink
> anything else, unless you know the brewer personally...
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:15:19 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: TravellerBrews LIC
>
> Solomani Imperial Stout
> Extract Brew
> 5 Gallon Batch from 6.3 Gal full boil
Hmm, may I suggest a varient: Imperial Scout Extract Brew?
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 01:24:41 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
On 1 Mar 2001, at 1:07, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
>
> >>Anthony Jackson wrote:
> >>
> >>> More like 6.8.
> >>
> >>Some Seattle radio stations are reporting it as a 7.0.
> >>Sounds like a small difference but the difference between
> >>a 6.4 and a 7.0 is huge!
> >>
> >>bloo
> >
> > The USGS is recording the quake as a 6.8 The epicenter is reported to
> > be 11 miles NE of Olympia and is 25-29 miles underground.
>
> Good grief! That's down in the *mantle*, isn't it?
Probably. It's fairly shallow by NZ standards. Most of our run at the 60-100
miles down range. I think it's because we're sitting over a subduction zone.
Generally the deeper it is the less horrid things happen right over it, but the
further away you feel the effects.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 01:24:41 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: TravellerBrews LIC
On 1 Mar 2001, at 22:09, Jeffrey Malone wrote:
> Brewed through a sheep? Sounds more like NZ beer to me (which is not to
> defend many Oz beers...we export the crap so that we won't have to drink it
> here...)
Actually it's what we usually think of Aussie and (especially) US beers. Though
if your exposure to NZ beer has been Steinlager and the various crap like DB
Draught and Lion Red I'm not surprised you don't like it. For decent beer try
Mac's or Montieth's. For drinkable mass-market Tui or Speight's (especially
their Old Dark), and Waikato if you like a more bitter flavour.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:26:41 -0800
From: "Craig Brain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com>
Subject: Aussie Beer, Picking Fights and Visual Basic
I'm with Phill on the subject of Boags Premium! Marvelous stuff that.
I'm not so keen on the other subject of VB Users vs "Real Programmers". I
really don't give a flying fat rat's crack.
If I did, I would subscribe to an appropriate forum, or in person I would
ask the person to step outside for a punch in the gob. I don't think this is
the place - why waste the bandwidth?
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:39:19 +1100
From: Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au>
Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
>
> Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or
> Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.
What about a Cascade premium or Boags Premium, or if you want to go a
bit darker Cooper's Stout?
BTW I can't remember the last time I actually saw Fosters in a pub down
here, it seems to exist only for export.
Phill
- - --
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/
- ------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:24:58 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: Traveller software project (new thread)
Okay, trying to pull all this programming lark back onto the
topic for which *this* list exists (ie. Traveller) I'd like to
make the following proposal:
There are a number of software projects for Traveller (both old
and new) that requires a database of the Traveller Universe.
There are drill-down mappers (like Galactic), there are system
generators (like Heaven&Earth), there are spreadsheets to analyse
the Imperial budget, and it sounds like there is more than one
person working on Traveller trading programs.
Each of these programs uses its own proprietary file structures.
Yet the core data *structure* is logically the same ... sectors,
subsectors, hexes, UPP/UWP, trade codes, etc.
What I'd like to propose is that future databases be built to a
common database design, which other programs can call from and
add to. People would still be free to write their own programs,
but with a central point for database design changes. So when
you write a Traveller program it can share data with any other
Traveller programs you have (without having to reinvent import
and export routines every time, and store the data redundantly in
multiple formats).
At present I am writing a Windows-based drill down mapper and
database maintenance program that stores data in an Access
database. I chose Access because it was free (you don't need the
MS Access program to have an Access database) but I'm willing to
look at other databases systems (like FileMaker).
If there is an interest I'll start posting the database design
I've got so far in plain text form to the StuffOnline website for
discussion. Later I can put a few sample databases (Classic,
TNE, Milieu Zero, etc) online for people to download and
customise.
Comments?
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
(To see current progress on my drill-down mapper there is a
screenshot on the StuffOnline web site under "Traveller Universe"
... http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 02:33:50 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
On 1 Mar 2001, at 13:24, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> At present I am writing a Windows-based drill down mapper and
> database maintenance program that stores data in an Access
> database. I chose Access because it was free (you don't need the
> MS Access program to have an Access database) but I'm willing to
> look at other databases systems (like FileMaker).
Is InterBase available for Mac and Linux? Its a powerful RDBMS and its
free.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:46:29 -0600
From: "Dave McKenna" <Dave.McKenna@MurrayState.edu>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
How about an XML protocol for data exchange?
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Trevor, Peter
> Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 7:25 AM
> To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> Subject: Traveller software project (new thread)
>
>
> Okay, trying to pull all this programming lark back onto the
> topic for which *this* list exists (ie. Traveller) I'd like to
> make the following proposal:
>
> There are a number of software projects for Traveller (both old
> and new) that requires a database of the Traveller Universe.
> There are drill-down mappers (like Galactic), there are system
> generators (like Heaven&Earth), there are spreadsheets to analyse
> the Imperial budget, and it sounds like there is more than one
> person working on Traveller trading programs.
>
> Each of these programs uses its own proprietary file structures.
> Yet the core data *structure* is logically the same ... sectors,
> subsectors, hexes, UPP/UWP, trade codes, etc.
>
> What I'd like to propose is that future databases be built to a
> common database design, which other programs can call from and
> add to. People would still be free to write their own programs,
> but with a central point for database design changes. So when
> you write a Traveller program it can share data with any other
> Traveller programs you have (without having to reinvent import
> and export routines every time, and store the data redundantly in
> multiple formats).
>
> At present I am writing a Windows-based drill down mapper and
> database maintenance program that stores data in an Access
> database. I chose Access because it was free (you don't need the
> MS Access program to have an Access database) but I'm willing to
> look at other databases systems (like FileMaker).
>
> If there is an interest I'll start posting the database design
> I've got so far in plain text form to the StuffOnline website for
> discussion. Later I can put a few sample databases (Classic,
> TNE, Milieu Zero, etc) online for people to download and
> customise.
>
> Comments?
>
>
>
> Regards PLST
> (aka Stalin)
>
> (To see current progress on my drill-down mapper there is a
> screenshot on the StuffOnline web site under "Traveller Universe"
> ... http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol)
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:48:16 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
This is a brilliant idea. I have one proposal to make:
rather than Access, use XML.
Why?
Well, XML is hand-editable, cross-platform, and well understood. Data can be structured in complex ways, parsed, modified, and written out again easily.
XML libraries in all major (and many minor) languages are freely available on all platforms. XML editors are available cheaply or for free on all platforms.
An XML database of the Traveller universe can provide a DTD (data schema) for UPPs, etc, and be extended for trade data, military data, etc.
Observe:
<UNIVERSE NAME="Traveller" MILEU-NAME = "Classic" MILEU-DATE="1115">
<SECTOR NAME="CORE" LOCATION="NN">
<SUBSECTOR NAME="Dunno" LOCATION="AA">
<WORLD NAME="Capital" LOCATION="0101" UPP="11111111">
<MILITARY-DATA>
Blah
</MILITARY-DATA>
<TRADE-DATA>
Blah
</TRADE-DATA>
<ROCK-GROUP-DATA>
Blah
</ROCK-GROUP-DATA>
</WORLD>
<WORLD NAME="Maedup" LOCATION="0202" UPP="22222222">
</WORLD>
<WORLD NAME="Noidea" LOCATION="0303" UPP="33333333">
</WORLD>
</SUBSECTOR>
</SECTOR>
<SECTOR NAME="Solomani Rim" X="1" Y="0">
<SUBSECTOR NAME="Dunno" LOCATION="AA">
</SUBSECTOR>
</SECTOR>
<SECTOR NAME="Spinward Marches" X="-2" Y="2">
<SUBSECTOR NAME="Dunno" LOCATION="AA">
</SUBSECTOR>
</SECTOR>
</UNIVERSE>
Such a format would allow all Traveller programs in all languages on all platforms to exchange sector, subsector and planetary data. This would give developers a boost by allowing them to share accurate data and not having to reinvent the wheel each time. It would give users a boost by allowing them to share data between programs and hack the data in a reasonably easily understood format if they want to.
Traveller Markup Language (TML) 0.1 is hereby proposed. :-)
- - Rob.
On Thursday, March 1, 2001, at 01:24 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> Okay, trying to pull all this programming lark back onto the
> topic for which *this* list exists (ie. Traveller) I'd like to
> make the following proposal:
>
> There are a number of software projects for Traveller (both old
> and new) that requires a database of the Traveller Universe.
> There are drill-down mappers (like Galactic), there are system
> generators (like Heaven&Earth), there are spreadsheets to analyse
> the Imperial budget, and it sounds like there is more than one
> person working on Traveller trading programs.
>
> Each of these programs uses its own proprietary file structures.
> Yet the core data *structure* is logically the same ... sectors,
> subsectors, hexes, UPP/UWP, trade codes, etc.
>
> What I'd like to propose is that future databases be built to a
> common database design, which other programs can call from and
> add to. People would still be free to write their own programs,
> but with a central point for database design changes. So when
> you write a Traveller program it can share data with any other
> Traveller programs you have (without having to reinvent import
> and export routines every time, and store the data redundantly in
> multiple formats).
>
> At present I am writing a Windows-based drill down mapper and
> database maintenance program that stores data in an Access
> database. I chose Access because it was free (you don't need the
> MS Access program to have an Access database) but I'm willing to
> look at other databases systems (like FileMaker).
>
> If there is an interest I'll start posting the database design
> I've got so far in plain text form to the StuffOnline website for
> discussion. Later I can put a few sample databases (Classic,
> TNE, Milieu Zero, etc) online for people to download and
> customise.
- --
Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/dylan
"The idea behind Dylan-to offer a range of dynamism appropriate to each piece of an application-feels right, and after using Dylan you will become frustrated with C++ and Java." - Software Development Magazine.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3754
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3755
Date: | 3/1/01 8:01:06 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Thursday, March 1 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3755
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Beer the New Traveller software project
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: TravellerBrews LIC
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Looking For...
Ship Construction Rules
Re: Looking For...
Imperium blood chits?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:57:44 -0600
From: "Dave McKenna" <Dave.McKenna@MurrayState.edu>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
> Traveller Markup Language (TML) 0.1 is hereby proposed. :-)
I second that motion, with one suggestion... how about we call it "TMX" so
as to avoid any confusion?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 21:55:50 -0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Beer the New Traveller software project
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Malone
Sent: Thursday, 1 March 2001 1:36 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
Dog Bolter with lemon? Not Redback with lemon? Best place to drink it was
at the Brass Monkey in Northbridge...thumbs down for VB...
Yes you are right it was indeed the Redback with lemon, been awhile since I
had any. I usually went to Queens Tavern in Mount Lawley.
Once tried to run through their "menu" using pint glasses, didn't get very
far though.
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 14:08:12 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Hey, great minds think alike. :-)
Here's a DTD for a simple-minded Traveller Markup Language. The world section is incomplete as I don't have the LBB's to hand. Possibly a common world representation usable by Traveller and GURPS could be found. The worlds, sectors and subsectors should be able to support arbitrary tags, so a doc could include tml.dtd, far-trader.dtd, etc and make sense of itself, but I don't know how to do that just now. :-)
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!DOCTYPE UNIVERSE [
<!ELEMENT UNIVERSE (NAME, MILEU?, MILEU?, SECTOR+)>
<!ELEMENT NAME (#PCDATA)>
<!ELEMENT MILEU (#PCDATA)>
<!ELEMENT DATE (#PCDATA)>
<!ELEMENT SECTOR (LOCATION, SUBSECTOR+)>
<!ELEMENT LOCATION (#PCDATA)>
<!ELEMENT SUBSECTOR (LOCATION, WORLD+)>
<!ELEMENT WORLD (NAME, UPP, GAS-GIANT+, ZONE+, FACT*)>
<!ELEMENT UPP (#PCDATA)>
<!ELEMENT GAS-GIANT (#PCDATA)>
<!ELEMENT ZONE (#PCDATA)>
<!ELEMENT FACT (NAME, INFORMATION)>
<!ELEMENT INFORMATION (#PCDATA)>
]>
If anyone is interested in this I can write something more complete up.
- - Rob.
- --
Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/dylan
"The idea behind Dylan-to offer a range of dynamism appropriate to each piece of an application-feels right, and after using Dylan you will become frustrated with C++ and Java." - Software Development Magazine.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:12:12 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
But the confusion is half the fun. :-)
Howabout an Imperial-sounding name? You just know the Solomani infected
Capital with XML-itis before the long night. There are COBOL routines in
the IISS accounts mainfraime from back when Sylea bought a job lot of
IBM systems cheap...
- - Rob.
Dave McKenna wrote:
>
> > Traveller Markup Language (TML) 0.1 is hereby proposed. :-)
>
> I second that motion, with one suggestion... how about we call it "TMX" so
> as to avoid any confusion?
- --
Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/
"Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei,
Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."
- Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:20:47 -0600
From: "Dave McKenna" <Dave.McKenna@MurrayState.edu>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
IBM? I thought they were TRS-80's... Solomani infiltrators also managed to
hijack a shipment of cassette tapes destined for said computers (remember
the tape drives?) and replaced them with 8-tracks...
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Rob Myers
> Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 8:12 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
>
>
> But the confusion is half the fun. :-)
> Howabout an Imperial-sounding name? You just know the Solomani infected
> Capital with XML-itis before the long night. There are COBOL routines in
> the IISS accounts mainfraime from back when Sylea bought a job lot of
> IBM systems cheap...
>
> - Rob.
>
> Dave McKenna wrote:
> >
> > > Traveller Markup Language (TML) 0.1 is hereby proposed. :-)
> >
> > I second that motion, with one suggestion... how about we call
> it "TMX" so
> > as to avoid any confusion?
>
> --
> Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/
> "Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei,
> Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."
> - Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 01:15:18 +1100
From: "Jeffrey Malone" <nparker1971@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
By IBM one assumes you refer to "Imperial Business Machines", ne c'est pas?
J.M.M.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
> But the confusion is half the fun. :-)
> Howabout an Imperial-sounding name? You just know the Solomani infected
> Capital with XML-itis before the long night. There are COBOL routines in
> the IISS accounts mainfraime from back when Sylea bought a job lot of
> IBM systems cheap...
>
> - Rob.
>
> Dave McKenna wrote:
> >
> > > Traveller Markup Language (TML) 0.1 is hereby proposed. :-)
> >
> > I second that motion, with one suggestion... how about we call it "TMX"
so
> > as to avoid any confusion?
>
> --
> Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/
> "Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei,
> Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."
> - Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 14:23:37 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
Dave McKenna wrote:
> How about an XML protocol for data exchange?
And Rob Myers wrote:
> This is a brilliant idea. I have one proposal to make:
>
> rather than Access, use XML.
Well we've just steam-rollered right over the current limit of my
knowledge. :-P
1) Wasn't someone else on the TML working of an XML format last
year? Who was that and how far did they get?
2) Correct me if I'm wrong (I could easily be) but isn't XML a
markup-language like HTML? Potentially useful as a data
exchange protocol (as Dave suggested), yes, but not an RDBMS
in itself? I was suggesting a common RDBMS which Traveller
programs could use ... with some sample downloadable DBs
(based on existing online archives), but otherwise allowing
individuals to tailor the *data* within to their TU.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:25:02 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
On Thu, 1 Mar 2001, Dave McKenna wrote:
> > Traveller Markup Language (TML) 0.1 is hereby proposed. :-)
> I second that motion, with one suggestion... how about we call it "TMX" so
> as to avoid any confusion?
The Traveller Markup Language gets my support, too.
Still, it should be developed somewhat more. B-)
TMX could be a workable TLA for it.
And, yes, please do develop programs in languages which run on
non-Microsoft platforms. (Personal dislike to use [as a hobby] programs
which cost money. And, as I am probably going to earn my living by
programming, I won't use software which I haven't the rights. B-/ )
Hm, perhaps I should do my Traveller software projects (none of which are
even close to anything concrete) in Ada...
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 01:18:20 +1100
From: "Jeffrey Malone" <nparker1971@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: TravellerBrews LIC
"Old Dark Speight's" seems to smack too much of political instability in the
South Pacific...perhaps staying with SweinLarger (beer brewed through a
pig?) might be a better idea after all...
J.M.M.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 11:24 PM
Subject: Re: TravellerBrews LIC
>
>
> On 1 Mar 2001, at 22:09, Jeffrey Malone wrote:
>
> > Brewed through a sheep? Sounds more like NZ beer to me (which is not to
> > defend many Oz beers...we export the crap so that we won't have to drink
it
> > here...)
>
> Actually it's what we usually think of Aussie and (especially) US beers.
Though
> if your exposure to NZ beer has been Steinlager and the various crap like
DB
> Draught and Lion Red I'm not surprised you don't like it. For decent beer
try
> Mac's or Montieth's. For drinkable mass-market Tui or Speight's
(especially
> their Old Dark), and Waikato if you like a more bitter flavour.
>
> --
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:30:53 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Yeah, although they used old Zhodani Z-80 processors.
This is very, very sad of me, but here are the languages that I imagine
resemble the programming languages that the Major Races would use:
Hivers - Lisp.
Solomani - C++.
Zhodani - Smalltalk.
K'Kree - VB.
Droyne - Forth.
Aslan - Males - BASIC
Females - COBOL
Vargr - Perl.
And of course, Virus would use VBScript.
Drop these resemblances into your campaign as background colour for geeks....
- - Rob.
Jeffrey Malone wrote:
>
> By IBM one assumes you refer to "Imperial Business Machines", ne c'est pas?
- --
Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/
"Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei,
Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."
- Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:37:09 -0600
From: "Dave McKenna" <Dave.McKenna@MurrayState.edu>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
> 2) Correct me if I'm wrong (I could easily be) but isn't XML a
> markup-language like HTML? Potentially useful as a data
> exchange protocol (as Dave suggested), yes, but not an RDBMS
> in itself?
I think of it as a parsing standard. Once you use XML to describe
something, I'll know how to tear apart the XML packet in order to drop the
data I need into my own data model, however different it may be from the
data model that the data describing the something came out of. :-)
I think that coming up with datamodel that fits everone's needs is going to
be stupifyingly difficult. However, if I have the freedom to design a
database that meets my needs, and I am then able to "communicate" with other
dbs and exchange data, my work is much reduced. If you come up with a new
ship design, for instance, you can make the details public in the "standard"
format, and I just need to import that into my database. Each individual
that writes their "own" db just needs to write their own import utilities to
parse through the XML structure and interpret the data properly for their
backend.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:33:52 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
"Trevor, Peter" wrote:
>
> Well we've just steam-rollered right over the current limit of my
> knowledge. :-P
It's Zhodani mind-war. Report the perpetrator to IRIS.
> 2) Correct me if I'm wrong (I could easily be) but isn't XML a
> markup-language like HTML? Potentially useful as a data
> exchange protocol (as Dave suggested), yes, but not an RDBMS
> in itself? I was suggesting a common RDBMS which Traveller
> programs could use ... with some sample downloadable DBs
> (based on existing online archives), but otherwise allowing
> individuals to tailor the *data* within to their TU.
XML is a structured data format designed to be read into a tree
structure in memory. An XML tree would be a common data format for
exchanging data, and reading it into memory with SAX or whatever wwould
give a standard (and easily understandable) data tree in memory.
So XML + XML Parser = XML data tree in memory. Close enough to an RDBMS,
and with major advantages.
- - Rob.
- --
Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/
"Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei,
Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."
- Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:46:13 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
A standard format for Universes is what I was thinking of. XML documents
can include multiple dtd's (schemas), so if I write a cultural
description format for worlds I can add that dtd to my program's XML
files along with the standard one. Other programs can read and write,
but not use, the data, so it's maintained.
Ships, characters, etc. are another area entirely. We do have UPPs and
USPs to start from, though...
-Rob.
Dave McKenna wrote:
> I think that coming up with datamodel that fits everone's needs is going to
> be stupifyingly difficult. However, if I have the freedom to design a
> database that meets my needs, and I am then able to "communicate" with other
> dbs and exchange data, my work is much reduced. If you come up with a new
> ship design, for instance, you can make the details public in the "standard"
> format, and I just need to import that into my database. Each individual
> that writes their "own" db just needs to write their own import utilities to
> parse through the XML structure and interpret the data properly for their
> backend.
- --
Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/
"Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei,
Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."
- Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:47:26 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC
>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 05:33:44 -0500
>From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
>Subject: TravellerBrews LIC
>Solomani Imperial Stout
>Extract Brew
>5 Gallon Batch from 6.3 Gal full boil
>
>OG/FG: 1.075-1.090/1.020-1.030
>Alc.V: 7.5-8.9
>IBU: 75 +/- 5
>SRM: 40+
>
>6.6 lbs Muntons Dark LME
>5.0 lbs Munton Light DME
>12 oz black patent malt
>1 lb roast non-malt barley
>12 oz 40L caramel malt
>1 lb chocolate malt
Chocolate? That'll get me to drinking at the very least THIS brew! Is
this a common ingredient in making beer?
As someone mentioned later (I'm not sure who) I think this qualifies you as
the official TML beerhead. =) This really was a fascinating read.
So... what would be in Scout Brew? Besides stuff that has to be set
outside the jumpspace bubble for the better part of a week...?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 01:50:44 +1100
From: "Jeffrey Malone" <nparker1971@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
And dare I speculate, the Darrians use FORTRAN?
Lukim yu bihain.
J.M.M.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 1:30 AM
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
> Yeah, although they used old Zhodani Z-80 processors.
>
> This is very, very sad of me, but here are the languages that I imagine
> resemble the programming languages that the Major Races would use:
>
> Hivers - Lisp.
> Solomani - C++.
> Zhodani - Smalltalk.
> K'Kree - VB.
> Droyne - Forth.
> Aslan - Males - BASIC
> Females - COBOL
> Vargr - Perl.
>
> And of course, Virus would use VBScript.
>
> Drop these resemblances into your campaign as background colour for
geeks....
>
> - Rob.
>
> Jeffrey Malone wrote:
> >
> > By IBM one assumes you refer to "Imperial Business Machines", ne c'est
pas?
>
>
> --
> Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/
> "Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei,
> Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."
> - Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 15:09:17 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
Rob Myers wrote:
> XML is a structured data format designed to be read into a tree
> structure in memory. An XML tree would be a common data format for
> exchanging data, and reading it into memory with SAX or whatever
> wwould give a standard (and easily understandable) data tree in
> memory.
>
> So XML + XML Parser = XML data tree in memory. Close enough to an
> RDBMS, and with major advantages.
Er, so if my 'database' has grown to include all canonical
sectors of the 3I and describes them down to the level generated
by Heaven&Earth (including planetary maps), isn't that going to
(a) take a long time to load into memory, and
(b) require an awful lot of memory?
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 15:21:35 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
Rob Myers wrote:
> Here's a DTD for a simple-minded Traveller Markup Language.
> The world section is incomplete as I don't have the LBB's to
> hand. Possibly a common world representation usable by
> Traveller and GURPS could be found. The worlds, sectors and
> subsectors should be able to support arbitrary tags, so a doc
> could include tml.dtd, far-trader.dtd, etc and make sense of
> itself, but I don't know how to do that just now. :-)
A lot of this is still going over my head ... when I first
thought of this I had in mind SQL but I guess I'm just showing my
age. As for the GURPS issue (at the risk of causing offense) I
consider CT, MT and T4 to be Traveller (rulesets), and TNE and
GURPS to be *simulations* of Traveller. As such wouldn't it make
sense to stick with a Traveller definition of the data for
storage (and transfer) purposes, and then offer GDW-House and
GURPS runtime translations?
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:25:04 -0600
From: "Dave McKenna" <Dave.McKenna@MurrayState.edu>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
> Er, so if my 'database' has grown to include all canonical
> sectors of the 3I and describes them down to the level generated
> by Heaven&Earth (including planetary maps), isn't that going to
> (a) take a long time to load into memory, and
> (b) require an awful lot of memory?
a) Yes
b) Yes
Especially when you consider that, as a general rule of thumb, you can
mulitply the size of any given data structure by about 10 when you
encapsulate it in XML. However, you don't try to wrap an entire database
into a single XML packet. Rather, distinct elements or entities can be
encapsulated... like, for instance, a single system or world (depending on
how the schema is put together). Rob's version .1 describes a system as per
LBB stats; sector, subsector, mainworld UPP, GG presence, etc. This locates
the world in 3space, but tells us nothing about the system two parsecs
spinward. This is not that large a packet, individually - just one row in a
db.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:25:02 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
At 11:03 PM 03/01/01 +1300, you wrote:
>
>If it was a 7.0 there'd be an aweful lot of nothing standing for quite a
ways
>around the epicentre.
Not necessarily. A deep quake is unlikely to produce many shear waves,
which do most of the damage.
The 1989 Loma Prieta Quake did most of its damage 30+ miles from the
epicenter. Part of it was the fact that the Marina District and Cypress
Structure were built on landfull, which liquefied, but it was also the odd
way the shock wave spread from the deep fault.
Yes, all Californians tend to know this much about earthquakes.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
Embrace Fascism. The uniforms look cool
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 07:30:04 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
At 01:24 AM 03/02/01 +1300, you wrote:
>
>On 1 Mar 2001, at 1:07, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> > The USGS is recording the quake as a 6.8 The epicenter is reported to
>> > be 11 miles NE of Olympia and is 25-29 miles underground.
>>
>> Good grief! That's down in the *mantle*, isn't it?
Yeppers. Upper layers of the Big Below.
>Probably. It's fairly shallow by NZ standards. Most of our run at the 60-100
>miles down range. I think it's because we're sitting over a subduction zone.
As is Seattle. They're in a weird little area where the NA and Pacific
plates get sucked under. Us lucky Californians get much shallower quakes.
>Generally the deeper it is the less horrid things happen right over it,
but the
>further away you feel the effects.
*nod* The local geology also makes a big difference. Since the Pacific
Northwest is covered in old volcanoes, the subsurface structures will
produces some truly weird shears. This explains the different magnitude
readings.. they're all right!
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
- Xaonon, in alt.atheism
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:40:31 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> If it was a 7.0 there'd be an aweful lot of nothing standing for quite a ways
> around the epicentre.
The epicenter was 25-30 miles below ground.
If it was closer to the surface, you'd probably be right.
Richter scale only measures the energy released at the
epicenter, a different scale, I forget the name, measures
the "intensity", which is how much destruction is done.
Another factor is the duration of the episode. This one
was pretty short. Generally, the longer the episode, the
greater the damage, even though the Richter measurement
is the same.
Richter scale is useless for measuring damage.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 08:46:04 -0700
From: Cliff Linehan <clinehan@sfamipec.com>
Subject: Looking For...
Greetings All,
Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller to what
can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?
Thanks,
Clifford Linehan
http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller
Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:54:59 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
Subject: Ship Construction Rules
Hello Everyone:
Is there a place where I can get rules for construction of Traveller ships?
In particular I am looking for rules concerning freighters and small warships.
Is there someplace on the web where this is located?
I have seen some talk of superdense and other aspects of construction. Which
rules do I use for this aspect?
Thanks in advance
John W. Fox
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:57:22 -0600
From: Victor Jason Raymond <vraymond@iastate.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking For...
There was a White Dwarf article VERY long ago that described one. I can't
recall if there was anything in the GDW house universe like it, though.
Victor Raymond
At 08:46 AM 3/1/01 -0700, you wrote:
>Greetings All,
> Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller to what
>can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?
>
>Thanks,
>Clifford Linehan
>http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller
>Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.
Victor Raymond
vraymond@iastate.edu
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:58:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Timothy Tow <t_pz_t@yahoo.com>
Subject: Imperium blood chits?
What would Imperium-era blood chit look like? Would mercenaries also
carry them in the Imperium for use in "little wars?"
In our current history, blood chits were documents carried by pilots
(and other soliders?) that offered rewards to anyone who helped a pilot
make it back safely from behind enemy lines. They were often printed in
foreign languages of the country over which the pilot was flying and
were numbered for identification purposes. For example, in WW II, blood
chits for American pilots operating over China had the Nationalist flag
printed on them and were sometimes affixed to the back of their flying
jackets.
See http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/faq/policy_10.htm for the official DOD
policy on their use now.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3755
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3756
Date: | 3/1/01 1:10:15 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Thursday, March 1 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3756
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Ship Construction Rules
Re: Ship Construction Rules
RE: Ship Construction Rules
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
RE: TravellerBrews LIC
re: Looking For...
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: TravellerBrews LIC
Hey Mark - RE: TravellerBrews LIC
Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
Re: Sayat
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3753
Re: OT: Now that was weird
Re: OT: Now that was weird
Re: Looking For...
Imperium blood chits?
Re: Imperium blood chits?
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 15:58:06 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
Dave McKenna wrote:
> > Er, so if my 'database' has grown to include all canonical
> > sectors of the 3I and describes them down to the level generated
> > by Heaven&Earth (including planetary maps), isn't that going to
> > (a) take a long time to load into memory, and
> > (b) require an awful lot of memory?
>
> a) Yes
> b) Yes
>
> Especially when you consider that, as a general rule of thumb,
> you can mulitply the size of any given data structure by about
> 10 when you encapsulate it in XML. However, you don't try to
> wrap an entire database into a single XML packet. Rather,
> distinct elements or entities can be encapsulated... like, for
> instance, a single system or world (depending on how the schema
> is put together).
And so if you then have an application that wants to identify all
known non-aligned feudal technocracies with TL15 class A
starports and a military base elsewhere in the same system you
have to scan all the XML packets? Sounds disk intensive.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:40:52 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
Dave McKenna wrote:
> I think that coming up with datamodel that fits everone's needs
> is going to be stupifyingly difficult. However, if I have the
> freedom to design a database that meets my needs, and I am then
> able to "communicate" with other dbs and exchange data, my work
> is much reduced. If you come up with a new ship design, for
> instance, you can make the details public in the "standard"
> format, and I just need to import that into my database. Each
> individual that writes their "own" db just needs to write their
> own import utilities to parse through the XML structure and
> interpret the data properly for their backend.
If we set the scope to be just astrogation data (for now) then
the high level definition has *already* been given to us in the
published rules. For example, all mainworlds have a starport
that is defined by a single ascii character with values A-E or X.
(GURPS represents this as I, II, III, etc but this is can be
thought of as a translation of the underlying datum.) Around
this common *core* you then add the parts you need for your own
programs, and include the redefinition scripts in the program
distribution package.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:54:39 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
You're absolutely right. :-)
So some sort of export-to/-from UPP functionality library would be useful, then?
- - Rob.
On Thursday, March 1, 2001, at 04:40 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> If we set the scope to be just astrogation data (for now) then
> the high level definition has *already* been given to us in the
> published rules.
- --
JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/
Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,
Edition en Anglais.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:08:57 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Ship Construction Rules
well Only thing i know of is HG2. I also believe there is a thing called
Fire fusion and steel but i think that is for gurps traveller or something.
Hasta
me
- -----Original Message-----
From: John Fox [mailto:jfox@verity.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 7:55 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Ship Construction Rules
Hello Everyone:
Is there a place where I can get rules for construction of Traveller
ships?
In particular I am looking for rules concerning freighters and small
warships.
Is there someplace on the web where this is located?
I have seen some talk of superdense and other aspects of construction.
Which
rules do I use for this aspect?
Thanks in advance
John W. Fox
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:27:53 -0600 (CST)
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Ship Construction Rules
On Thu, 1 Mar 2001, John Fox wrote:
> Is there a place where I can get rules for construction of Traveller ships?
> In particular I am looking for rules concerning freighters and small warships.
> Is there someplace on the web where this is located?
> I have seen some talk of superdense and other aspects of construction. Which
> rules do I use for this aspect?
In the beginning, there was Book 2: Starships, followed by the short-lived
High Guard, 1st edition and the much longer-lasting High Guard, 2nd
edition (HG2). Book 2 and HG2 are available in the first of the Far
Future Enterprises reprints, and HG2 is still very well regarded by many
on this list.
Then came MegaTraveller, which had construction rules, I believe, but I
know very little about them.
Then TNE brought us Fire, Fusion and Steel, the most insanely detailed and
therefore best construction rules system yet :) Imperium Games published
a later version of FF&S, which has better rules in many ways but suffers
from IG's attention (or lack of it) to editing and layout.
GURPS uses a modular system, described in the main GURPS Traveller
rulebook, which is based on GURPS Vehicles, I believe.
So if you want something that's in print, buy the Far Future reprint with
HG2 or GURPS Traveller. Or check ebay and your favorite used game dealer
for FF&S.
As for superdense, it's a kind of hull material, and I don't know when it
first appeared, but it was around by the time of FF&S.
There are programs and spreadsheets on the web to help use these rules,
but it's a good idea to actually read the rules first.
Greg Kettler
"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you
may not actually need an explicit loop exit. The loop will be terminated
automatically at the appropriate moment."
-Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:33:21 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Ship Construction Rules
John Fox wrote:
> Is there a place where I can get rules for construction of
> Traveller ships? In particular I am looking for rules
> concerning freighters and small warships. Is there someplace
> on the web where this is located? I have seen some talk of
> superdense and other aspects of construction. Which rules
> do I use for this aspect?
AFAIK there are no full *web* resources (but there are some
people's homebrew add-ons). The main source of the construction
rules depends on what ruleset you are using:
- - CT had 2 different systems "Book 2" and "High Guard" ... these
are both included in the first Classic Reprints book. The
"Book 2" system has a max size of 5,000 dtons, whereas High
Guard has a max size of 1,000,000 dtons.
- - MT had 1 system that was in the Referee's Manual. IIRC this is
where different hull material (like superdense) was introduced.
- - TNE had a special book called "Fire, Fusion & Steel" (sometimes
called FF&S). FF&S has better explanations of things (like
superdense).
- - T4 had a couple of systems ... one is in a T4 book called
"Fire, Fusion & Steel" (sometimes called FF&S2).
- - GT uses ... er ... whatever GURPS uses, but it ain't metric.
Each set has different technology premises and levels of
sophistication, and so your ships will turn out very different
under each system. Therefore it is important to know the ruleset
you are using.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:35:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Trevor, Peter writes:
> There are a number of software projects for Traveller (both old
> and new) that requires a database of the Traveller Universe.
> There are drill-down mappers (like Galactic), there are system
> generators (like Heaven&Earth), there are spreadsheets to analyse
> the Imperial budget, and it sounds like there is more than one
> person working on Traveller trading programs.
Hm...I'm not really 'working' on it any more.
>
> Each of these programs uses its own proprietary file structures.
> Yet the core data *structure* is logically the same ... sectors,
> subsectors, hexes, UPP/UWP, trade codes, etc.
At the moment, the default format is variant Genii files -- i.e. based on
the standard world extended UWP used in those files:
Regina 1910 A788899-C A Ri Cp 703 Im F7 V M8 D M6 V
I use Genii-based files, as does Galactic (I add some custom width headers,
galactic breaks data into subsectors and forces certain column widths on
that data). It isn't actually a hard format to work with.
>... http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol)
Have you seen my site at http://maps.grandsurvey.com ?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:48:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
>From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
>I was kind of amazed with how we both made it through just fine but
>because we couldn't get phone calls to each other and cell service was
>pretty much down we coudn't know for sure until we made it to the Ferry
>dock to meet up.
>It's kinda weird to be deprived of all the high tech means of
>communication.
My friends who live in Kent had a different experience. Their telephone
service was out, but their cable modem service had no interruptions.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:47:16 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
Rob Myers wrote:
> On Thursday, March 1, 2001, at 04:40 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> > If we set the scope to be just astrogation data (for now) then
> > the high level definition has *already* been given to us in the
> > published rules.
>
> You're absolutely right. :-)
>
> So some sort of export-to/-from UPP functionality library
> would be useful, then?
What I originally had in mind (before this explosion of interest
in XML) was to use a free/shareware RDBMS (preferably one that
was ODBC compliant) as a common data container with just 1
program equiped with various import/export filters for WBS,
Genie/Sunbeam, SAR, etc. Then all other programs could use this
common data container without a need for them to have any import/
export functions of their own at all. Further, I was going to
put forward my own drill-down mapper program as the database
adminstration module ... but making the database design (at
least) "open source" so that it could support other people's
programs, too.
Now I have to get my head around the design and performance
issues of using XML instead of an RDBMS and see what's what.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:56:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Good grief! That's down in the *mantle*, isn't it?
I suspect that the *mole men* experienced a horrible accident while
preparing for an *invasion of the surface.* Could the Fantastic Four have
been involved? They have not been seen at their New York laboratory for
some weeks now.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 09:57:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: TravellerBrews LIC
>From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
>Hmm, may I suggest a varient: Imperial Scout Extract Brew?
Rrafroughz stopped drinking Scout Brew when he found out it wasn't made
from real Scouts.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:02:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Looking For...
>From: Cliff Linehan <clinehan@sfamipec.com>
> Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller to what
>can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?
Check the Darrians Alien Module. I think they have a
plasma-in-a-magnetic-field sculpture thing that can be made into a weapon.
There was a big discussion about this some time ago on the TML; check the
archives.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:03:46 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Have you seen my site at http://maps.grandsurvey.com ?
Yes, and I may subject it to a Website Review. My "Big Map"
project sort of fizzled out after I saw your site. Right now
I'm focused on offline resources.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:13:17 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: TravellerBrews LIC
ROFL!!!!
> Rrafroughz stopped drinking Scout Brew when he found out it wasn't made
> from real Scouts.
>
> --Glenn
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 10:13:17 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: Hey Mark - RE: TravellerBrews LIC
I think that calls for another t-shirt design along the lines of your
Brubek's logo =D
Jesse
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:18:46 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
> david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
>
>> Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or
>> Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.
Eeeeewww! They send Corona your way, too??
Yuck! Piss in a bottle! _Bum_piss in a bottle!
I'll drink Budweiser before I'll drink Corona.
I'll drink _OLY_ before I'll drink Corona!
My current fave is Ommengang, a Belgian style ale brewed by the Ommengang Brewery, Cooperstown, NY. Quite tasty.
Alas, Jackhammer Stout, my actual real-live favorite beer is no longer available :-( The brewpub that made it went out of business.
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:27:49 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Sayat
Glenn Goffin wrote:
>> From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
>
>
>> Great, so after all this time I've been a member of TML,
>> I *still* have no idea what the Sayat are or aren't.
>
>
> The Sayat are a minor race of some sort that are fascinated with
> pelvic-mounted thrusters ... er, weapons systems.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!! You asked for it! From the archives, the infamous, the reknowned, the irreproducible SayBoom Pelvic Mount Plasma Projector, the most sick and twisted weapon of Mans destruction:
=============================================================================
>From kenji@accessone.com Wed Oct 29 16:20:01 1997
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 08:56:24 -0800
From: Kenji Schwarz <kenji@accessone.com>
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Recoil in shame and horror --
- -- it's the SayBOOM Pelvic-Mount Plasma Projector!
Currently manufactured by the Sayat Board of Organization and Oversight for
Munitions, the PMPP was originally designed as a novelty item for the
domestic market. It is, however, exported in some quantity to the
Imperium, where it is popular with collectors and certain paramilitary
organizations.
The optional Kegel trigger of earlier models has now been discontinued, as
numerous accidental discharges had resulted in injury and death. A variety
of manual or voice-activated triggering devices are available from the
manufacturer and many local retailers. The extremely popular "pop-up"
holster is now factory-packaged with each weapon, though it requires fairly
extensive adjustment and custom fitting to function correctly. The
Imperial Ministry of Commerce has not yet handed down a ruling on whether
the PMPP is to be regulated as a "concealable weapon", however.
Users should also be warned that "boinging" and lateral wobble makes firing
in motion or turning rapidly a highly inaccurate and dangerous endeavour.
Owners are strongly urged not to attempt to emulate usage of the PMPP seen
in action/adventure holovids. Furthermore, after firing the barrel remains
superheated, and incautious users may burn themselves. Finally, the PMPP's
extreme recoil requires that the shock-absorbing harness be worn properly
to minimize the possibility of severe internal damage. SayBOOM are said to
be investigating the application of gravitic stabilization to further
improve accuracy and aim.
Weapon Type: TL-11 manual repeater plasma frontarm
Ammunition: 2.8x8.5 cm CPC
Pulse Energy: 90 kJ
Weapon Length: 30.4 cm
Weapon Weight: 4.188 kg loaded, 3.108 kg empty with no magazine
Weapon Price: Cr1322
Magazine Weight: 1.08 kg loaded, 0 kg empty
Features: Laser sight, shock absorber
Range 30m, recoil 6.266
Mark Miller's Traveller
Name Damage TL Range Shots Mass Reloads Cost
Plasma Novelty 9 11 Short 5 4.2 kg 1.1 kg Cr1325
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 11:38:44 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Rob Myers wrote:
> Vargr - Perl.
>
Gnnngghhhkkkkk! OWWW Cooffee through the nose is painful!
Chalk up a keyboard kill...we have a perl coder here who writes like I
imagine a Vargr would...;-)
(And no it's not me!)
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:10:03 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3753
Frank wrote:-
>> I don't mean to be insulting, but if you program
>> like you form the basis of an argument then I take
>> it you fall into the latter catagory.
>What was that about pots calling kettles black ?
I suggest that you wait until you've produced a program that does half of
what H&E can achieve before you express similar opinions.
Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm
"A people should know when they're conquered"
Quintus Magnus, Regimental Commander, Army of the North
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:02:25 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: OT: Now that was weird
"Alistair J. R. Young" wrote:
> Ah, a heisenbug!
Gesundeheit!
:-)
Si
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:02:25 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: OT: Now that was weird
"Alistair J. R. Young" wrote:
> Ah, a heisenbug!
Gesundeheit!
:-)
Si
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:35:38 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Looking For...
It was "laser swords and foils". I have a copy if anyone is interested.
Personally, my oarticular favorite was "Chainsaw combat in Traveller" which
included rules for a fusion chainsaw.
Bzzzzz, Bzzzzzz. "Now, the leg"
- -Scarface
Tod
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Jason Raymond" <vraymond@iastate.edu>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 01, 2001 7:57 AM
Subject: Re: Looking For...
> There was a White Dwarf article VERY long ago that described one. I can't
> recall if there was anything in the GDW house universe like it, though.
>
> Victor Raymond
>
> At 08:46 AM 3/1/01 -0700, you wrote:
> >Greetings All,
> > Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller to
what
> >can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Clifford Linehan
> >http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller
> >Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.
>
> Victor Raymond
> vraymond@iastate.edu
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 20:22:43 -0000
From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Imperium blood chits?
How true this is I'm not 100% certain, but it was told to me by a friend
(Tornado pilot) on his return to my base after the War.
During the Gulf War British pilots carried bloodchits wrapped around 2(?)
gold sovreigns that basically said (in many local languages).
"You can keep the gold sovreigns, however should this person be handed to
allied forces alive you will receive 4 more. If he is fit well and whole,
you will receive 8, if his manhood is still attached you will receive 10."
The latter to prevent the traditional gelding of prisoners by bedouin.
he also mentioned that the American pilots had laughed at these chits, until
they were translated, but then had to borrow british ones as the US Air
Force could not (would not?) supply the gold sovreigns only US dollars. the
locals had NO use for dollars and a lot of respect for gold.
- - - - - - - - - - - start quote - - - - - - - - -
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 07:58:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Timothy Tow <t_pz_t@yahoo.com>
Subject: Imperium blood chits?
What would Imperium-era blood chit look like? Would mercenaries also
carry them in the Imperium for use in "little wars?"
In our current history, blood chits were documents carried by pilots
(and other soliders?) that offered rewards to anyone who helped a pilot
make it back safely from behind enemy lines. They were often printed in
foreign languages of the country over which the pilot was flying and
were numbered for identification purposes. For example, in WW II, blood
chits for American pilots operating over China had the Nationalist flag
printed on them and were sometimes affixed to the back of their flying
jackets.
See http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/faq/policy_10.htm for the official DOD
policy on their use now.
- - - - - - - - - - - - end quote - - - - - -
Peter
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk (Trav & AD&D)
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
And life is harsh and rarely fair.
Never appeal to a man's 'better nature.' He may not have one.
Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love (By Robert.Heinlan)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:37:56 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <tvickers@conroe.isd.tenet.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperium blood chits?
traveller@lists.ient.com writes:
>During the Gulf War British pilots carried bloodchits wrapped around 2(?)
>gold sovreigns that basically said (in many local languages).
SAS units operating in the gulf carried them also.
_______________________________________
We're not just going th shoot the bastards. We are going to cut out their
living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. WE are going to
murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel.
George C. Scott (Patton)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 12:57:43 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Rob Meyers wrote:
> This is very, very sad of me, but here are the languages that I imagine
> resemble the programming languages that the Major Races would use:
>
> Hivers - Lisp.
> Solomani - C++.
> Zhodani - Smalltalk.
> K'Kree - VB.
> Droyne - Forth.
> Aslan - Males - BASIC
> Females - COBOL
> Vargr - Perl.
>
> And of course, Virus would use VBScript.
Surely Vilani would have to use COBOL?
- -RB
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3756
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3757
Date: | 3/1/01 4:32:10 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Thursday, March 1 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3757
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Traveller software project
Re: Looking For ... (cf 'Be careful what you ...)
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: TravellerBrews LIC
Re: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Hey Mark - RE: TravellerBrews LIC
Re: Looking For...
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
RE: Ship Construction Rules
Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
Re: Ship Construction Rules
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Traveller software project
Re: New Traveller software project
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
THANKS!
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Traveller software project
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Traveller software project
Re: THANKS!
Re: Traveller software project
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Re: Traveller software project
Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Re: Traveller software project
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 08:18:33 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
>Subject: Traveller software project (new thread)
>
>What I'd like to propose is that future databases be built to a
>common database design, which other programs can call from and
>add to. People would still be free to write their own programs,
>but with a central point for database design changes. So when
>you write a Traveller program it can share data with any other
>Traveller programs you have (without having to reinvent import
>and export routines every time, and store the data redundantly in
>multiple formats).
>
>At present I am writing a Windows-based drill down mapper and
>database maintenance program that stores data in an Access
>database. I chose Access because it was free (you don't need the
>MS Access program to have an Access database) but I'm willing to
>look at other databases systems (like FileMaker).
I am strongly against using Access for this. I'd be much happier with something like one of the variants
of SQL (I have stayed out of the VB debate, except to say I prefer Sheaf or Boags Stout. And that one
of my co-workers has had her life made hell for the last twelve months because a bunch of
incompetant brain-dead fuckwits who are incapable outside their VB/Access comfort zone and
incompetant within it thought that programming a government Fraud database in VB was a good idea.
As a business user, I am a language snob. becasue as the inept can get VB to run, it is often the
language of choice for the inept. Therefore, by choosing something else as a platform, you have less
chance of hiring the inept).
Is there a Windows SQL that is free either in the free beer sense (hey, this links the beer thread to the
programming thread) or as in free speech sense ?
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 08:29:55 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Looking For ... (cf 'Be careful what you ...)
>From: Cliff Linehan <clinehan@sfamipec.com>
>Subject: Looking For...
>
>Greetings All,
> Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller to what
>can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?
>
>Thanks,
>Clifford Linehan
Dunno about 'canon', but Famile Spofulam do sell a fine homebrew kit, to let you build an analogue - 8
small PAWs mounted into a handle, each firing every quarter-second or so.
This means that every 0.03 seconds there is a small PAW discharge, which does a pretty good
imitation of a lightsabre.
Ian Whitchurch
Personal Assistant
Ms Ditzammer Spofulam
Executive Vice-President
Famile Spofulam
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:50:47 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
On 1 Mar 2001, at 14:30, Rob Myers wrote:
> Yeah, although they used old Zhodani Z-80 processors.
>
> This is very, very sad of me, but here are the languages that I imagine
> resemble the programming languages that the Major Races would use:
>
> Hivers - Lisp.
> Solomani - C++.
> Zhodani - Smalltalk.
> K'Kree - VB.
> Droyne - Forth.
> Aslan - Males - BASIC
> Females - COBOL
> Vargr - Perl.
>
> And of course, Virus would use VBScript.
And nobody uses stright C. That's so sad.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:50:47 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: TravellerBrews LIC
On 2 Mar 2001, at 1:18, Jeffrey Malone wrote:
> "Old Dark Speight's" seems to smack too much of political instability in the
> South Pacific...perhaps staying with SweinLarger (beer brewed through a pig?)
> might be a better idea after all...
First time anyone's ever said anything like that about Speight's Old Dark. :)
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:52:11 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC
On 1 Mar 2001, at 9:47, Jonathan McDermott wrote:
> As someone mentioned later (I'm not sure who) I think this qualifies you as the
> official TML beerhead. =)
Not to be insulting, but the correct term should really be pisshead. :)
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:54:04 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
On 1 Mar 2001, at 7:25, Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 11:03 PM 03/01/01 +1300, you wrote:
> >
> >If it was a 7.0 there'd be an aweful lot of nothing standing for quite a
> ways
> >around the epicentre.
>
> Not necessarily. A deep quake is unlikely to produce many shear waves,
> which do most of the damage.
By local (NZ) standards this one wasn't deep.
> The 1989 Loma Prieta Quake did most of its damage 30+ miles from the
> epicenter. Part of it was the fact that the Marina District and Cypress
> Structure were built on landfull, which liquefied, but it was also the odd
> way the shock wave spread from the deep fault.
>
> Yes, all Californians tend to know this much about earthquakes.
We tend to have a bit of an idea, too. At the time I wrote that comment I
didn't know just how deep or shallow it was.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 13:47:39 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Hey Mark - RE: TravellerBrews LIC
Jesse Degraff <jedegraf@cisco.com> writes:
>I think that calls for another t-shirt design along the lines of your
>Brubek's logo =D
Sure!! Somebody suggest a design, I'll build it!
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:54:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Looking For...
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>It was "laser swords and foils". I have a copy if anyone is interested.
>Personally, my oarticular favorite was "Chainsaw combat in Traveller"
>which included rules for a fusion chainsaw.
Chainsaw combat in Traveller ... so I _can_ spring a Doom scenario on my
unsuspecting players in a much more complete fashion than I had ever
dreamed possible ... mwahahahaha hahaha
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:57:52 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
On 1 Mar 2001, at 9:40, Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote:
>
>
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
> > If it was a 7.0 there'd be an aweful lot of nothing standing for quite a ways
> > around the epicentre.
>
> The epicenter was 25-30 miles below ground.
> If it was closer to the surface, you'd probably be right.
> Richter scale only measures the energy released at the
> epicenter, a different scale, I forget the name, measures
> the "intensity", which is how much destruction is done.
Mercali ?
> Another factor is the duration of the episode. This one
> was pretty short. Generally, the longer the episode, the
> greater the damage, even though the Richter measurement
> is the same.
>
> Richter scale is useless for measuring damage.
I know. Some of the more damaging local quakes have been relatively small, but
shallow. There've been some quite powerful ones recently that have been felt
across a radius of one or two hundred miles, but done no damage at all because
they were down 60 - 100 miles.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:59:24 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship Construction Rules
On 1 Mar 2001, at 9:08, William Lane wrote:
> well Only thing i know of is HG2. I also believe there is a thing called
> Fire fusion and steel but i think that is for gurps traveller or something.
Now that could be construed as an insult, you know. :)
Fire, Fusion & Steel was for TNE.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:04:19 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
On 1 Mar 2001, at 11:18, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Alas, Jackhammer Stout, my actual real-live favorite beer is no longer available
> :-( The brewpub that made it went out of business.
Hate it when that happens. I miss the days of batch brewed beer (not that there
was much left when I started my beer drinking days) - never knowing exactly
what the beer would be like one crate to the next made it so much more of an
adventure.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:04:19 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Ship Construction Rules
On 1 Mar 2001, at 11:27, Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:
> As for superdense, it's a kind of hull material, and I don't know when it
> first appeared, but it was around by the time of FF&S.
Striker's vehicle construction rules, I think.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:06:23 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
On 1 Mar 2001, at 11:38, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Rob Myers wrote:
>
> > Vargr - Perl.
> >
>
> Gnnngghhhkkkkk! OWWW Cooffee through the nose is painful!
>
> Chalk up a keyboard kill...we have a perl coder here who writes like I
> imagine a Vargr would...;-)
With flair, and contempt for convention?
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:12:29 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
On 2 Mar 2001, at 8:18, Ian or Katts wrote:
> I am strongly against using Access for this. I'd be much happier with something
> like one of the variants of SQL (I have stayed out of the VB debate, except to
> say I prefer Sheaf or Boags Stout. And that one of my co-workers has had her
> life made hell for the last twelve months because a bunch of incompetant
> brain-dead fuckwits who are incapable outside their VB/Access comfort zone and
> incompetant within it thought that programming a government Fraud database in VB
> was a good idea. As a business user, I am a language snob. becasue as the inept
> can get VB to run, it is often the language of choice for the inept. Therefore,
> by choosing something else as a platform, you have less chance of hiring the
> inept).
My flatmate is currently employed by a bank. He gets to do COBAL stuff, mainly
fixing legacy code that barely works, was written by a drunk Vargr (or maybe a
squirrel being chased by one), and has no documentation. I think that by not
using VB all you do is get more 'qualified' inept.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 02:18:48 +0400
From: Andrew Long <andylong@emirates.net.ae>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 13:16:30 +1100
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
<Snip>
>
>Personally, I can't stand the taste of VB. I prefer a Carlton Cold or
>Toohey's Old. Or maybe a Corona.
>
But at least it's better than the 'Amber Nectar'
Andy
_____
Andrew Long Email AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae Or
c/o EPMTS AndrewLong@HotMail.com Or
P.O. Box 46426 AndyLong@BigPond.com
Abu Dhabi Phone +971 (50) 661 0254 Mobile
United Arab Emirates +971 (2) 671 0434 Home/Fax
_____
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:25:27 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
> On 1 Mar 2001, at 11:38, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>
>> Rob Myers wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Vargr - Perl.
>>>
>>
>> Gnnngghhhkkkkk! OWWW Cooffee through the nose is painful!
>>
>> Chalk up a keyboard kill...we have a perl coder here who writes like I
>> imagine a Vargr would...;-)
>
>
> With flair, and contempt for convention?
Nah, with Chaos and a contempt for Comments...
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:33:22 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: THANKS!
Just a quick note to let you all know that, thanks to you, my loyal
visitors and authors, Freelance Traveller has reached an important
milestone - for the first time, there have been over 500 visits to the site
in a single week.
The next milestone is to get the four-week moving average up to that level!
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:49:38 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
On 1 Mar 2001, at 15:25, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >> Chalk up a keyboard kill...we have a perl coder here who writes like I
> >> imagine a Vargr would...;-)
> >
> >
> > With flair, and contempt for convention?
>
> Nah, with Chaos and a contempt for Comments...
Ah. A Vargr of the Dark Side.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:52:55 -0000
From: "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
One thing that hasn't been considered is the use of random number seeding.
One of the important features of H&E is the fact the only thing users
require to share data is a Sector File (in whatever format) plus a random
number seed.
Any system generated using the same random number seed will always produce
the same results. There isn't a need to develop database structures.
One of the reasons why I have always put off developing a database structure
for H&E is the fact that the program simply generates too much data and to
be honest system data simply doesn't lend itself to being stored in a
database.
One thing that was looked at in the early days of WBD was an Extended UWP
format which was retained in H&E. However, despite best efforts from a small
group of people this format was generally overlooked.
On the topic of XML it is all very well to discuss the subject on the list,
but does everyone interested truly have the resolve to see the thing through
to fruition? To be honest I doubt it. I think you'll be hard pushed to agree
a format and the idea will be forgotten.
Stuart Ferris
stuart.ferris@virgin.net
http://freespace.virgin.net/stuart.ferris/index.htm
"A people should know when they're conquered"
Quintus Magnus, Regimental Commander, Army of the North
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:53:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Howdy!
> Rupert Boleyn wrote:
>
> >
> > On 1 Mar 2001, at 11:38, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >
> >
> >> Rob Myers wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Vargr - Perl.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Gnnngghhhkkkkk! OWWW Cooffee through the nose is painful!
> >>
> >> Chalk up a keyboard kill...we have a perl coder here who writes like I
> >> imagine a Vargr would...;-)
> >
> >
> > With flair, and contempt for convention?
>
> Nah, with Chaos and a contempt for Comments...
>
In Vargr? You know, it is now possible to write an entire Perl script in
Latin, with the flexible word order, and using declensions and cases to
sort out the distinction between scalars, lists, hashes, refs, and all that
stuff. No funny characters, using roman numerals, and all that.
The sick and perverted Damian Conway has released Lingua::Romana::Perligata
(I think), and shown in a paper snippets of what could be the Klingonese
version.
Having a script begin:
#!/usr/bin/perl -w
use Lingua::Vargr;
<remainder in Vargr>
is quite within reach...
yours,
Michael
- --
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:19:53 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
On 2 Mar 2001, at 8:18, Ian or Katts wrote:
> Is there a Windows SQL that is free either in the free beer sense (hey, this
> links the beer thread to the programming thread) or as in free speech sense ?
InterBase. Free and Open Source.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:26:43 -0600 (CST)
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: THANKS!
On Thu, 1 Mar 2001, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> Just a quick note to let you all know that, thanks to you, my loyal
> visitors and authors, Freelance Traveller has reached an important
> milestone - for the first time, there have been over 500 visits to the site
> in a single week.
You're welcome.
Wait. That's all wrong. Shouldn't you be the one saying "you're
welcome," ideally after we all say thanks for providing a great site?
Thanks.
Greg Kettler
"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you
may not actually need an explicit loop exit. The loop will be terminated
automatically at the appropriate moment."
-Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:46:03 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
Stuart Ferris wrote:
> One thing that hasn't been considered is the use of random number seeding.
> One of the important features of H&E is the fact the only thing users
> require to share data is a Sector File (in whatever format) plus a random
> number seed.
>
> Any system generated using the same random number seed will always produce
> the same results. There isn't a need to develop database structures.
That is, alas, one of the Windows-only things preventing H&E from being ported to other platforms. A random number seed will only prduce the same series of numbers using the same random number sequence generator. Even Non-MS compilers on Windows machines will produce different random numbers.
> One of the reasons why I have always put off developing a database structure
> for H&E is the fact that the program simply generates too much data and to
> be honest system data simply doesn't lend itself to being stored in a
> database.
As someone who is an SQL coder for a living I would suggest that an impolite term starting with 'boll' and ending with 'ocks' is an appropriate response to that.
An intelligent and orthagonal database design will store system information quite well, particularly if you can have OO elements. In addition a well-designed database lends itself to multiple uses.
Then again, as as someone who is an SQL coder for a living I'd realize that I have a lot of suspiciously hammer-like tools in my tool box. ;-)
> On the topic of XML it is all very well to discuss the subject on the list,
> but does everyone interested truly have the resolve to see the thing through
> to fruition? To be honest I doubt it. I think you'll be hard pushed to agree
> a format and the idea will be forgotten.
It depends entirely on whether there are XML-capable folks on the list. XML is new, the tools are limited and not a lot of people know how to use it.
On the other hand it's an order or two of magnitude more powerful than
HTML is. It took quite a while for html to catch on, too.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:57:54 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
> >Good grief! That's down in the *mantle*, isn't it?
>
> I suspect that the *mole men* experienced a horrible accident while
> preparing for an *invasion of the surface.* Could the Fantastic
> Four have been involved? They have not been seen at their New York
laboratory
> for some weeks now.
Actually, the FF are in space right now, dealing with the Aslan. And
while the media are blaming the mole men for all this, my sources
indicate that it's actually *Superman's* fault. You know how he always
tunnels through the earth? I knew that, sooner or later, that was bound
to screw up the fault lines. Damn kryptonian's more arrogant than the
Zhodani.
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:03:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
Bruce Johnson writes:
> That is, alas, one of the Windows-only things preventing H&E from being
> ported to other platforms. A random number seed will only prduce the same series of numbers using the same random number sequence generator. Even Non-MS compilers on Windows machines will produce different random numbers.
You can, of course, write your own randomizer.
>
> > One of the reasons why I have always put off developing a database
> > structure for H&E is the fact that the program simply generates too much
> > data and to be honest system data simply doesn't lend itself to being
> > stored in a database.
>
> As someone who is an SQL coder for a living I would suggest that an
> impolite term starting with 'boll' and ending with 'ocks' is an appropriate response to that.
Your average sector is about 450 worlds. Give it 1k per world and that's
10-20 megabytes for the entire imperium. That's what I call a 'tiny
database'. I don't know what H&E produces, but I doubt it's more than 1k
per world.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 00:04:57 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: WARNING! Incorrect Statement of Law
At 09:42 -0500 28/2/01, Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote:
>Actually, whether it's actionable or not would depend on what the book was
>about. If it were a treatise on strange reptilian beasts actually kept in
>the basements of European castles, you'd probably get away with it. That's
>one of the reasons we have Apple Computer and Apple Records, two unrelated
>companies. It was ruled that the spheres of influence of the two companies
>were dissimilar enough that no trademark infringement could take place.
Hence the MacOS system sound 'Sosumi', allegedly.
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 00:10:43 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
At 17:41 -0500 28/2/01, "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com> wrote:
>Some Seattle radio stations are reporting it as a 7.0.
>Sounds like a small difference but the difference between
>a 6.4 and a 7.0 is huge!
The Richter scale is logarithmic if I remember correctly, so there's
an order of magnitude in the rating.
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 13:28:44 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
On 1 Mar 2001, at 16:46, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> As someone who is an SQL coder for a living I would suggest that an impolite
> term starting with 'boll' and ending with 'ocks' is an appropriate response to
> that.
Just off the top of my head (without really bothering with any design work
and only a month's worth of SQL)
CONNECT "c:\temp\Imperium.gdb"
USER "SYSDBA" PASSWORD "masterkey";
DROP database;
CREATE database "c:\temp\Imperium.gdb"
USER "SYSDBA" PASSWORD "masterkey";
/*These create the tables and determine what type of data to store in
them*/
CREATE TABLE System
(
Sector Char(2) not null,
Hex Integer not null,
Name Char(14),
Primary Key (Sector, Hex)
);
CREATE TABLE Star
(
Sector Char(2) not null,
Hex Integer not null,
Name Char(14),
StarNo Integer not null,
SpectralMain Char(1) not null,
SpectralSub Integer,
Sequence Char(1) not null,
Orbit Integer, /* In 0.01 of AUs */
Primary Key (Sector, Hex, StarNo)
Foreign Key (Sector, Hex) references System (System, Hex)
);
CREATE TABLE World.... etc
COMMIT;
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3757
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From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)
To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3757
Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3758
Date: | 3/1/01 10:37:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, March 2 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3758
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: TravellerBrews LIC
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: [TML] Looking For...
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Re: Looking For...
Re: Looking For...
Help!
Re: Imperium blood chits?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3753
Re: Traveller software project
RE: New Traveller software project
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
Famille Spofulam News Brief.
Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
Re: Traveller software project
OT Nonsense
Re: OT Nonsense
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Help!
Re: Help!
Re: Nobles and the Imperium
Wealth (Was: Nobles and the Imperium)
Re: Nobles and the imperium
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:08:10 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: RE: TravellerBrews LIC
Dear Folks -
Dean wrote:
>Hmm, may I suggest a varient: Imperial Scout Extract Brew?
Ah, beer brewed through a Scout, eh?
- - Hyphen
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:54:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
In mail you write:
> IBM? I thought they were TRS-80's... Solomani infiltrators also managed to
> hijack a shipment of cassette tapes destined for said computers (remember
> the tape drives?) and replaced them with 8-tracks...
Hey! I still own most of my TRS-80 gear! And I wrote traveller software
for it that I'll some day get around to porting.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 20:12:07 -0500
From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Looking For...
>Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:35:38 -0800
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: Re: Looking For...
>Personally, my oarticular favorite was "Chainsaw combat in
>Traveller" which included rules for a fusion chainsaw.
"Groovy."
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:44:34 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
At 09:40 AM 03/01/01 -0600, you wrote:
>The epicenter was 25-30 miles below ground.
>If it was closer to the surface, you'd probably be right.
Minor correction.. "Epicenter" is the location on the surface directly
above the quake point. But you are right, depth is a vital factor.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 17:45:07 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Looking For...
At 08:46 AM 03/01/01 -0700, you wrote:
>Greetings All,
> Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller to what
>can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?
No.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 21:01:56 -0500
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Looking For...
>Greetings All,
> Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller to what
>can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?
ISTR a mention somewhere, probably either Book 0 or a JTAS editorial, mentioning light sabers as the sort of cool-looking-but-impossible thing that individual refs could add to their games, but which weren't going to be included in 'real' Traveller. Probably not the sort of 'canon reference' you were looking for...
Trent
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:10:03
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Help!
I admit technological ignorance.
Somehow, I have ended up subscribed to the list twice. once as
gridlore@mindspring.com, and again as gridlore@pop.mindspring.com
Majordomo is refusing to let me close either account. I need the "pop"
acciubt killed. Is Rob still around? Or can anybody give me some help on
killed this monster?
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:12:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperium blood chits?
In mail you write:
> See http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/faq/policy_10.htm for the official DOD
> policy on their use now.
It never finishes loading. :-(
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 20:24:02 -0600
From: Mark A Nordstrand <markn@visi.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3753
I've waited well over 24 hours before delurking and adding my
opinion.....
> >> I don't mean to be insulting, but if you program
> >> like you form the basis of an argument then I take
> >> it you fall into the latter catagory.
>
> >What was that about pots calling kettles black ?
>
> I suggest that you wait until you've produced a program that does half of
> what H&E can achieve before you express similar opinions.
>
Ok. http://www.visi.com/~markn (many others which have absolutely
nothing to do with what this mailing list is about, but this should do)
Pot. Kettle. Black.
I happen to be one of those professionals you've been making disparaging
remarks about. Oddly enough, I find you're comment above to be exactly
what you've been complaining about from "us." Really makes me wonder
about what advise you've been listening to. Certainly doesn't make me
care to offer any......
I've been identified as a jazz snob, as a C snob, even as a unix snob
(but, take note, never as a beer snob -- people can drink the swill
produced in the US if they want to).
PS. Today a coworker identified perl as a write-only language. I was
amused, and considering other comments made lately, others may be as
well.
- --
Mark
"So you want to be a rock and roll star..."
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:05:25 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
> Stuart Ferris wrote:
> > Any system generated using the same random number seed will always produce
> > the same results. There isn't a need to develop database structures.
>
> That is, alas, one of the Windows-only things preventing H&E from being ported to other platforms. A random number seed will only prduce the same series of numbers using the same random number sequence generator. Even Non-MS compilers on Windows machines will produce different random numbers.
It's easy enough to code your own random number generator, which
can thereby be made portable (part of the app instead of part of
the libraries); I can provide info on this. Of course, that's one
of the least difficulties I can see in porting H&E.
- -Russell B
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:54:00 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: New Traveller software project
If you want a database heavy project, why not go the whole hog and use
mySQL for the back end and scripted web pages or Java for the
processing? I thought he was just after a few ideas he could tinker
with, and VB is fine for that (though if its a "quality" product
that's aimed at, I agree with you).
BTW, if you _do_ want to go the whole hog, you can download mySQL,
Java, PHP and some other odds and ends from my web page. Help
yourself.
- --
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson
> Sent: 28 February 2001 18:25
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
>
>
> Trevor, Peter wrote:
>
> > Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >
> >> One thing...if you can avoid using Windowze-Only
> features (as, alas,
> >> Heaven and Earth did) then a Mac port of your software
> is relatively
> >> straightforward using RealBASIC.
> >
> >
> > I have also recently started a VB Traveller project (maybe its
> > just that time of the year) and I may want to port it to obscure
> > O/Ss like Mac ... what "Windowze-Only" features give porting
> > problems? I'd like to avoid them if possible. (Also, I am
> > storing data in an Access database [1] and using SQL commands
> > where possible. Is their a Mac equivalent?)
>
> Not with MS apps, there isn't.
>
> As someone else mentioned FileMaker Pro (available from,
> amazingly enough, Filemaker.com ) will work.
>
> Realbasic Pro comes with a SQL database component. Strictly
> sticking to SQL instead of Accmess should work.
>
> I feel about Access what Frankie feels about VB, so I'll
> shut up now.
>
> (All I can say is that a programmer that stored the data
> and the code together in one %$@#! file should be drug out,
> shot, revived, tenderly nursed back to health, and shot again.)
>
>
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:57:18 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
I did several small DTDs (now Schemas) for that sort of thing a while
back. Happy to make them available and extend them if we can agree on
the data descriptions - but remember that developers might have
different needs and it can take a while to provide everything that's
needed.
- --
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Rob Myers
> Sent: 01 March 2001 14:08
> To: Rob Myers
> Cc: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
>
>
> Hey, great minds think alike. :-)
>
> Here's a DTD for a simple-minded Traveller Markup Language.
> The world section is incomplete as I don't have the LBB's
> to hand. Possibly a common world representation usable by
> Traveller and GURPS could be found. The worlds, sectors and
> subsectors should be able to support arbitrary tags, so a
> doc could include tml.dtd, far-trader.dtd, etc and make
> sense of itself, but I don't know how to do that just now. :-)
>
> <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><!DOCTYPE UNIVERSE
> [<!ELEMENT UNIVERSE (NAME, MILEU?, MILEU?, SECTOR+)>
> <!ELEMENT NAME (#PCDATA)>
> <!ELEMENT MILEU (#PCDATA)>
> <!ELEMENT DATE (#PCDATA)><!ELEMENT SECTOR (LOCATION, SUBSECTOR+)>
> <!ELEMENT LOCATION (#PCDATA)><!ELEMENT SUBSECTOR (LOCATION, WORLD+)>
> <!ELEMENT WORLD (NAME, UPP, GAS-GIANT+, ZONE+, FACT*)>
> <!ELEMENT UPP (#PCDATA)>
> <!ELEMENT GAS-GIANT (#PCDATA)>
> <!ELEMENT ZONE (#PCDATA)>
> <!ELEMENT FACT (NAME, INFORMATION)>
> <!ELEMENT INFORMATION (#PCDATA)>]>
>
> If anyone is interested in this I can write something more
> complete up.
>
> - Rob.
>
> --
> Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/dylan
> "The idea behind Dylan-to offer a range of dynamism
> appropriate to each piece of an application-feels right,
> and after using Dylan you will become frustrated with C++
> and Java." - Software Development Magazine.
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 19:10:20 -0800
From: clifford n linehan <cnl.rubicon@juno.com>
Subject: Famille Spofulam News Brief.
"System Traffic Control to All ships."
"Be advised that Famille Spofulam will begin testing of a new prototype
starship. All manned ships will commence movement into orbits five and
six. All manned ships must be within said orbits by 1200 hours Imperial
Standard Time. All ships in the outer system beyond 200 diameters are to
remain in excess of 200 diameters. All ships 100 to 200 diameters out are
to proceed at maximum speed to beyond 200 diameters immediately. All
ships within 100 diameters are to proceed at maximum speed to orbits five
and six, where you are cleared for high-g orbit entry protocols."
"Be advised that all unmanned ships will be remotely piloted by System
Traffic Control at 1.0g maneuver."
"Be advised that if you are not in the designated orbits, you risk the
loss of your ship and your life."
"Please have a nice day and fly safely. System Traffic Control out at
1101 hours Imperial Standard Time."
Clifford Linehan - cnl.rubicon@juno.com
http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller
Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:24:58 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Well, *THAT* was entertaining!
On 1 Mar 2001, at 17:44, Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 09:40 AM 03/01/01 -0600, you wrote:
> >The epicenter was 25-30 miles below ground.
> >If it was closer to the surface, you'd probably be right.
>
> Minor correction.. "Epicenter" is the location on the surface directly
> above the quake point. But you are right, depth is a vital factor.
That'll teach me to use technical terms that I last actually used in high
school geography.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:24:58 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
On 1 Mar 2001, at 16:03, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Your average sector is about 450 worlds. Give it 1k per world and that's
> 10-20 megabytes for the entire imperium. That's what I call a 'tiny
> database'. I don't know what H&E produces, but I doubt it's more than 1k
> per world.
A friend of mine is an Oracle man. I don't think he thinks in units that small.
:)
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:38:51 -0500
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: OT Nonsense
>> I don't mean to be insulting, but if you program
>> like you form the basis of an argument then I take
>> it you fall into the latter catagory.
>What was that about pots calling kettles black ?
I suggest that you wait until you've produced a program that does half of
what H&E can achieve before you express similar opinions.
<Ahem> well... Chalk up a k/b kill for Mr. Ferris. I love a good comeback.
I figure that's all that needs to be said about that... Game, Set Match to
the MAN, Stuart Ferris, who wrote the best Traveller utility EVER. One of my
computers has been doing nothing but running H&E.
Oh, and to the kind soul that suggested that I brew up an Imperial Scout
Extract Ale... I'm working on it. I was thinking along the lines of a
Steinbier or a Hefeweizen...
The gentleman who brought up Ommegang... You have taste, sir. That is a fine
brew. Alas, because of the blue laws in my state, I cannot partake unless I
drive to Maryland. <sigh>
Jeff
The Beerhead (actually we prefer "Zymurgist", but Beerhead will do)
OBTrav: Well, customs officials come to mind..."What do you mean it's only
2% over our legal limits for alcohol content?!? You still can't bring it in
here and corrupt our fine upstanding citizens! Just sign it over to me, and
I'll see that it's disposed of properly..."
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 17:43:06 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: OT Nonsense
On 1 Mar 2001, at 23:38, Greenly, Jeff wrote:
> I suggest that you wait until you've produced a program that does half of what
> H&E can achieve before you express similar opinions.
>
> <Ahem> well... Chalk up a k/b kill for Mr. Ferris. I love a good comeback.
Uhmm, how about we just drop this. Stuart was talking to an experienced
professional software engineer and his statement was actually kind of silly.
Good though H&E is, its really a tiddler in the world of software projects. I'd
say at a guess that H&E is probably around 100,000 LoC, which only just
puts it at the lower limit of commercial software (HGS comes in at around
25,000 LoC BTW).
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:56:44 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
> Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:50:47 +1300
> From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
> Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
>
<snip>
> And nobody uses stright C. That's so sad.
Well we all know what traditionalists the Vilani are....
I put it to you that they have only just (c. 1113) begun
implementing ansi standard c. Prior to this time they have
used APL exclusively. :)
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 21:21:36 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Help!
on 3/1/01 6:10 PM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:
> I admit technological ignorance.
>
> Somehow, I have ended up subscribed to the list twice. once as
> gridlore@mindspring.com, and again as gridlore@pop.mindspring.com
>
> Majordomo is refusing to let me close either account. I need the "pop"
> acciubt killed. Is Rob still around? Or can anybody give me some help on
> killed this monster?
I can spoof you email on my mail server and kill one of your subscriptions.
Which one do you want executed?
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 21:26:24 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Help!
on 3/1/01 6:10 PM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:
> I admit technological ignorance.
>
> Somehow, I have ended up subscribed to the list twice. once as
> gridlore@mindspring.com, and again as gridlore@pop.mindspring.com
>
> Majordomo is refusing to let me close either account. I need the "pop"
> acciubt killed. Is Rob still around? Or can anybody give me some help on
> killed this monster?
I sent an unsubscribe traveller as gridlore@pop.mindspring.com for you.
Let me know if it works.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 06:46:34 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>"Larsen E. Whipsnade writes: as holders [of] planetary titles with no
>corresponding Imperial patent."
>
> "But if his title is a planetary title with no corresponding Imperial
>patent, why is his social class considered to correspond to an Imperial
>title?"
>
> The Imperial nobility ensure that others treat him with deference, even
>if they do not, so that the deference due to them is not stinted or
>questioned. This doens't mean that his influence or advice would count for
>anything among the Imperial nobility, but they'll make very sure he isn't
>snubbed by the commons. Can't have the rabble getting any ideas.
That begs the question. WHY would the Imperial nobility care about the holder of
a title with no corresponding Imperial patent? As far as they are concerned,
what is the difference between a planetary baron and a planetary dogcatcher?
> "In Traveller terms, if the grandfather was SL X then Lord Randolph was
>SL X-2 and Churchill was SL X-4 (or something)."
>
> Sounds good to me. Let's see the Duke, Grampa John, would be SL E or
>F. Lord Randolph SL A (no title other then Lord) and Winston SL 9
Except that the Duke of Malborough (granpa) wouldn't be Social Class E under the
current system. As a mere duke (and not even a royal duke), he'd at best qualify
for an Imperial baronage (SL C). Depending on how generous the Imperium is with
its titles he may have to be content with a knighthood (SL B).
>>But the Grand Duke of Fornol wouldn't have a social level equivalent to an
>>Imperial duke but only to an Imperial marquis.
>
> I entirely agree with that and wasn't suggesting that he would. He'd
>have an Imperial patent whose level would be based on how his world was
>brought into the Imperium and how his family has served the Imperium since
>then.
IMO there would be thousands or even tens of thousands of planetary nobles on
each well-established world with a population in the high medium (7 to 8) or
high (9 and 10). Only a few of those would qualify for Imperial noble titles.
It's not the handful from each planet that do qualify for an Imperial title that
concerns me here. It's all the others.
> "But such a baron wouldn't be SL 12. He'd be whatever SL the barons of
>his planet were."
>
> I'm suggesting a "courtesy" SL for such individuals. He'd still be
>treated as a noble, but without all the precedence due a "real" Imperial
>baron.
And I believe such a system isn't practical. Nor do I understand why an Imperial
baron would consider planetary barons to be peers just because they happen to
have alike-sounding titles.
>His social level off world would be equal to whatever the Imperial
>nobility decided it was...
Sure, but again, why would real Imperial nobles WANT to share their thunder with
tens of thousands of planetary nobles? I maintain that they wouldn't. ("My Lord
Marquis, there's an "Archduke of Beaupays" to see you" "What is he when he is at
home?" "I believe the individual is the Minister of Trade for Junidy, My Lord."
"Have him make an appointment with my secretary.")
> "In between squires and planetary rulers you have minor nobles
>(~barons), rulers of counties (~counts), rulers of regions
>~marquesses/dukes), rulers of provinces (~dukes/princes), heads of state
>(~princes/kings), and rulers of continents (~emperors). And all these ranks
>are squeezed into just two ranks, SL 11 and 12."
>
> Sounds okay to me. Why not have all those minor nobles seem as one big
>"clump" from the Imperial viewpoint?
Because then you are looking at it from the POW of a class of people who
constitutes a billionth of the population of the Imperium. Regardless of how
many levels there may be above a ruler of a world, minor nobles still defer to
rulers of counties, counts still defer to rulers of regions, dukes still defer
to rulers of provinces, princes still defer to heads of state, kings still
defer to rulers of continents, and emperors still defer to world rulers. And
don't forget that this is the same status system that allocate NINE different
levels to the lower and middle classes. Now, why would an Imperial noble lump
everyone from baron to emperor into two classes yet distinguish between the
lower lower class, the low middle lower class, the upper middle lower class, the
upper lower class, the lower middle class, the low middle middle class, the mid
middle middle class, the upper middle middle class, and the upper middle class?
>The Imperials work backward from the Emperor, down to the Marquis of each
>planet. Anything below the level of Marquis is not worth worrying too much
>about from the Imperial viewpoint.
Now explain SL 1 to 9.
Anyway, the Imperium DO deal with these people. There's an overlap. The Duchess
of Mora is also the planetary leader of Mora. Which means that not only does she
deal with the Imperial nobility of Mora subsector, she also deals with two or
three levels of planetary nobility below her. And those two or three levels
below her deals with those further down the food chain.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 06:52:17 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Wealth (Was: Nobles and the Imperium)
Peter Newman writes:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote
>
>>As the only way of transferring wealth from one system to another is to
>>transport goods from one to the other, the Imperium would mostly get its
>cut in goods and services. Starships, supplies, annual maintenances, etc.
>
>The worlds of the Imperium could easily transfer wealth from
>themselves to the Imperium by simply paying in Imperial credits.
Money isn't wealth. It's a promisory note. Until you can convert the money into
something you can burn, fondle, or eat it's just so much scrap paper/electronic
noise.
>Every Imperial credit out there is a debt that the Imperium owes the holder of
>that credit. If worlds turn these credits in then the indebtedness of the
>Imperium is released.
But the only way to cash in that debt is for the Imperium to deliver something
valuable to the holder of that credit (Or, as will more often be the case, the
only way for the Imperium to get any use out of the tax credits it has recieved
from a world is to buy stuff (or services) from that world.)
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 07:33:17 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the imperium
Christopher Thrash writes:
>>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>>What is clear is that social level A-F were planetary titles. The Duke of
>>Alpha Continent, not the Duke of Regina.
>
>...in a setting where the highest level of interstellar state is "an empire
>of several worlds," not 11,000.
Which is why it should have been changed when the scale changed.
>The creation of the Official Traveller Universe changed several assumptions
>underlying the rules: the social structure was stretched to accommodate the
>vastly increased scope of the setting. There is nothing inherently
>contradictory about this.
There is when relatively powerful military positions that gave merely planetary
titles is suddenly much less powerful, yet wind up giving Imperial titles.
>The social levels B-F were changed from planetary nobility in a setting of
>pocket empires, to interstellar nobility in an empire spanning thousands of
>worlds.
And that's just what I've been complaining about. You don't suddenly not have
planetary barons, counts, dukes, princes, kings, and emperors just because you
have an interstellar nobility added on top of that. Yet by changing SL B-F from
planetary to interstellar titles, you effectively remove them from the social
ladder. And that is not, IMO, right.
>Arguably, they became relatively *less* powerful, not more so.
Relatively it should be about the same. But in absolute terms the difference is
HUGE.
>>>"At the discretion of the referee, a noble may have some ancestral lands or
>>>fiefs, and may actually have some ruling power."
>>>
>>>Book 1, p. 9 (1981)
>
>This is the key point: the amount of real power (as opposed to presumed
>social precedence) associated with player character noble titles is set at
>the sole discretion of the referee.
To quote MM again: "It also has to make sense". There is a strong correlation
between power and social position. Not a complete correspondence, of course, but
a very strong correlation.
>>>The kicker, and the clue that you are dealing with no ordinary
>>>noble, is the suffix or fief used in the style of address.
>>
>>Yes, but Traveller does not _treat_ them as extraordinary nobles. The CGS
>>hands out noble titles to every Tom, Dick, and Horatio in the navy with a
>>little dice luck and to several other careers too. Imperial nobles bum
>>around the universe with not a care in the world and often no money either.
>
>Those are titles of achievement, which (once again, *explicitly*)
>"customarily carry no special reward beyond the noble title itself." (Supp.
>11, p. 35)
And the social level. This is the single most common exception to the strong
correlation between power and social position. In order not to cheapen their own
title, powerful titleholders are apt to insist that those who share their title
is treated (almost) as well as they themselves. And it's precisely the fact that
they do get the same social level as landed peers that is the problem. Because
while the 300 "real" dukes in the Imperium wouldn't mind a few dozen achievement
dukes (much), I'm perfectly sure they wouldn't like having a few thousand
achievement dukes running around.
Not to mention that MT explicitly stated that counties and dukedoms weren't
handed out as achievement titles. I know you don't like to regard MT as kosher,
but I do not want to throw out the babies with the bathwater. AFAIAC MT is just
as much canon as CT.
>Canon does make distinctions among nobles, based on real power:
>
>"The Baronet obviously has much power and influence, and should be treated
>with great care and caution." (Adv. 11, p. 48) Baronet Rosa Demetriou's
>connections and antecedents were described in detail on preceeding pages
>(ibid., pp. 45-48).
Which one is Adv. 11? I think it must be one of the ones I don't have.
>Similarly, Marc hault-Oberlindes, Baron Feri, and Marquis Leonard
>Bolden-Tukera of Aramis (TTA, p. 22) have their power bases
>clearly identified, and are presented as forces to be respected.
No argument there. The point is that nobles with merely county-sized fiefs are
quite powerful too, yet you never hear about them because there is no room for
them in the social ladder.
>Contrast this with Professor Sir Gnetus Jerrold Vicervis (Adv. 2, p. 37)
>about whom no such caution is offered. His title is presumably for either
>achievement in science, or his position as research station director; in
>any case, it carries no other real power.
His title is also a mere knighthood. I don't see the relevance.
>Sergei hault-Oberlindes, Marc's son, winds up in jail for assaulting a cop
>(JTAS #1, p. 13) and eventually commands the flagship of the Oberlindes Line
>(AHL rules booklet, pp. 41-43), but is apparently accorded no special
>deference.
As the son of an Imperial baron he wouldn't have a title of his own until Marc
died (A baron wouldn't have a secondary title for the eldest son to "loan"), so
I don't see anything strange about that. All it shows is that even Imperials are
subject to local laws.
>Finally, I draw your attention to Charles de Batz-Castelmore, Monsieur
>d'Artagnan, whose literary namesake left to make his fortune in Paris with
>just a broken-down horse, his father's sword, and a letter of introduction.
AFAIK Chevalier de Bath was only a knight. As such he is even lower than a
planetary baron. He'd fall in SL A. His father was propably a squire. In any
case France at the time was hardly an interstellar state.
>There have certainly been periods of history (or heroic fiction, at any
>rate) where noble titles did not automatically confer either great wealth
>or great power.
But my thesis is that a close relative of an Imperial baron would be more akin
to a relative of the Zar of all the Russias than the son of a French country
squire.
>I think it just as likely that Travellers -- the tiny fraction of the total
>Imperium involved in interstellar affairs, on any level -- look down on all
>purely local, world-bound citizens as "wogs". Player character social
>status would therefore represent _Imperial_ status, with on-world status
>ignored as essentially irrelevant, much the way imperialists of the
>18th-19th century condescended to local potentates: an outward show of
>respect, with little substance. Important local figures would have a place
>in the Imperial hierarchy (titles for service), however, which would have
>to be respected.
All this would be a lot more plausible if the same system that you say would
cavalierly dismiss planetary nobles as uninteresting didn't contain 9 different
levels for the commoners. Besides, you're wrong. There would be an overlap
between the planetary nobility and the Imperial. The top layer of the planetary
nobility would be the bottom layer of the Imperial. As such, they would deal
with both and they wouldn't lump everybody among the planetary nobles together
the way you suggest.
Hans
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3758
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3759
Date: | 3/2/01 9:21:59 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Friday, March 2 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3759
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
[none]
RE:
RE: Traveller software project
Re: Sayat
RE: Sayat
RE: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
re: Looking For...
Re: Famile Spofulam News Brief
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Wealth (Was: Nobles and the Imperium)
RE: [TML] Looking For...
RE: Traveller software project
Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3753
RE: Beer the New Traveller software project
Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
Re: Help!
Re: Traveller software project
Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
Good American Beer (it exists!)
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
Re: Traveller software project
RE: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 02:01:34 -0500
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: [none]
unsubscribe greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:20:54 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE:
address it to: majordomo@lists.ient.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Greenly, Jeff [mailto:greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu]
> Sent: 02 March 2001 07:02
> To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> Subject:
>
>
> unsubscribe greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:36:23 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project
>
> > On the topic of XML it is all very well to discuss the
> subject on the list,
> > but does everyone interested truly have the resolve to see
> the thing through
> > to fruition? To be honest I doubt it. I think you'll be
> hard pushed to agree
> > a format and the idea will be forgotten.
>
> It depends entirely on whether there are XML-capable folks on
> the list. XML is new, the tools are limited and not a lot of
> people know how to use it.
>
> On the other hand it's an order or two of magnitude more
> powerful than
> HTML is. It took quite a while for html to catch on, too.
Grappling to learn XML at the moment. So, although I use it, I ain't much
good to you...yet.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:13:42 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: Sayat
> The Imperial Ministry of Commerce has not yet handed down a ruling on
> whether the PMPP is to be regulated as a "concealable weapon", however.
Hmm. Another perspective to the PMPP. Checking the volumes of
the plasma weapon components and assuming that the weapon is
cylindrical in shape, its diameter is about 9 cm. That might be
hard to conceal.
- --
Antti Lahtinen lahtinen@ee.tut.fi
Researcher, MSc (Eng) http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:15:01 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Sayat
>
> > The Imperial Ministry of Commerce has not yet handed down
> a ruling on
> > whether the PMPP is to be regulated as a "concealable
> weapon", however.
>
> Hmm. Another perspective to the PMPP. Checking the volumes of
> the plasma weapon components and assuming that the weapon is
> cylindrical in shape, its diameter is about 9 cm. That might be
> hard to conceal.
> --
You'd be amazed what a skilled tailor can accomplish. :)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:35:31 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC
>
> Chocolate? That'll get me to drinking at the very least THIS
> brew! Is
> this a common ingredient in making beer?
>
Not lager, but yes.
> As someone mentioned later (I'm not sure who) I think this
> qualifies you as
> the official TML beerhead. =) This really was a fascinating read.
I'm flatter that I'm so memorable :|
>
> So... what would be in Scout Brew? Besides stuff that has to be set
> outside the jumpspace bubble for the better part of a week...?
>
OUTSIDE the jump bubble? How would you get it back...pull on the rope? :)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:41:39 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
> But the confusion is half the fun. :-)
> Howabout an Imperial-sounding name? You just know the
> Solomani infected
> Capital with XML-itis before the long night. There are COBOL
> routines in
> the IISS accounts mainfraime from back when Sylea bought a job lot of
> IBM systems cheap...
>
At least the Millenium bug isn't going to be a problem for about 8/9 hundred
years
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 04:53:01 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: re: Looking For...
On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:07:30 -0500 (EST), Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
wrote:
>>From: Cliff Linehan <clinehan@sfamipec.com>
>> Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller to what
>>can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?
>Check the Darrians Alien Module. I think they have a
>plasma-in-a-magnetic-field sculpture thing that can be made into a weapon.
> There was a big discussion about this some time ago on the TML; check the
>archives.
Not the Alien Module; it was an article written up and posted on Freelance
Traveller - I forgot exactly what section it appeared in, but look for
something on the Order of Zar-tis. It's probably under "Kurishdam".
Given the at-last-report-partially-not-quite-intact state of Downport, the
primary Freelance Traveller site, let me point you to the mirror, at
http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz/.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:12:54 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Famile Spofulam News Brief
>From: clifford n linehan <cnl.rubicon@juno.com>
>Subject: Famille Spofulam News Brief.
>
<good stuff snipped>
>"Be advised that if you are not in the designated orbits, you risk the
>loss of your ship and your life."
>
>"Please have a nice day and fly safely. System Traffic Control out at
>1101 hours Imperial Standard Time."
***applause***
Now, Ms Spofulam would like to see the imagery (and data uploads) from the test flight ... what *have*
the labs been coming up with lately ?
Ian Whitchurch
PA to Exec VP Ditzie Spofulam
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:47:49 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
No, they're more Pascal guys. :-)
- - Rob.
On Thursday, March 1, 2001, at 08:57 PM, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> Surely Vilani would have to use COBOL?
- --
Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/
"Art is not a copy of the real world.
One of the damn things is enough."
- Unknown.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 02:08:30 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Wealth (Was: Nobles and the Imperium)
Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote
> Peter Newman writes:
> >Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote
> >
> >>As the only way of transferring wealth from one system to another is to
> >>transport goods from one to the other, the Imperium would mostly get its
> >cut in goods and services. Starships, supplies, annual maintenances, etc.
> >
> >The worlds of the Imperium could easily transfer wealth from
> >themselves to the Imperium by simply paying in Imperial credits.
>
> Money isn't wealth. It's a promisory note. Until you can convert the money into
> something you can burn, fondle, or eat it's just so much scrap paper/electronic
> noise.
If people will accept your money for their credits you get
what you want. If people wont accept your Imperial Credits
within the Imperium then they're traitors.
> >Every Imperial credit out there is a debt that the Imperium owes the holder of
> >that credit. If worlds turn these credits in then the indebtedness of the
> >Imperium is released.
>
> But the only way to cash in that debt is for the Imperium to deliver something
> valuable to the holder of that credit (Or, as will more often be the case, the
> only way for the Imperium to get any use out of the tax credits it has recieved
> from a world is to buy stuff (or services) from that world.)
The valuable good the Imperium delivers to it's member worlds
is "Pay your taxes and don't get invaded by us." Governments are
nothing more than protection rackets. If the alternative is being
invaded then the member worlds have a pretty good chance of getting
those Imperial credits out of their subjects pockets .
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:39:12 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Looking For...
Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott wrote:
> >Personally, my oarticular favorite was "Chainsaw combat in
> >Traveller" which included rules for a fusion chainsaw.
>
> "Groovy."
LOL! ... "Shop smart, shop S-Mart."
Regrads PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:57:03 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> > Is there a Windows SQL that is free either in the free beer
> > sense (hey, this links the beer thread to the programming
> > thread) or as in free speech sense ?
>
> InterBase. Free and Open Source.
Thanks. I had originally wanted a free SQL-compliant RDBMS (ODBC
for Windows) but had missed this one. From the blurb on the web
it sounds ideal (support for BLOBs, too, so planetary maps and
other graphics can be stored). I've downloaded it and will play
with it this weekend. Ideally, a common Traveller database could
be distributed as SQL scripts and loaded into the SQL-compliant
RDBMS of your choice. I notice that InterBase has a Linux
version (which would make porting "Traveller Universe" compliant
software easier) ... not sure what to do about the Mac brigade.
As for the XML data storage idea ... its outside my range of
current knowledge at present and I am concerned about performance
issues. However, using XML as a common means of data transfer to
non TU-compliant software sounds fine. Perhaps once the database
table design becomes reasonably stable one of the XML experts
here can start converting it into XML and I can build an "export
in XML" function for the data.
Anyway, I'll report back next week on InterBase.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:09:18 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
> Eeeeewww! They send Corona your way, too??
> Yuck! Piss in a bottle! _Bum_piss in a bottle!
> I'll drink Budweiser before I'll drink Corona.
> I'll drink _OLY_ before I'll drink Corona!
Oh, you Armerican types, never cease to amuse me. What you call beer
is like making love in a kanoo (?Spelling?) to us german types.
Now us, we do have _beers_...
...and even then, there´s worlds of difference.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:11:31 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3753
Am Thursday, March 01, 2001, las ich folgendes:
> Frank wrote:-
>>> I don't mean to be insulting, but if you program
>>> like you form the basis of an argument then I take
>>> it you fall into the latter catagory.
>>What was that about pots calling kettles black ?
> I suggest that you wait until you've produced a program that does half of
> what H&E can achieve before you express similar opinions.
BTW, remarkable piece of equipment, H&E is. Still never ceases to
amaze me when i play around with it. (Still no time to use it for
real, though...) (sigh!)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 14:12:50 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Beer the New Traveller software project
>
> > Eeeeewww! They send Corona your way, too??
> > Yuck! Piss in a bottle! _Bum_piss in a bottle!
> > I'll drink Budweiser before I'll drink Corona.
> > I'll drink _OLY_ before I'll drink Corona!
> Oh, you Armerican types, never cease to amuse me. What you call beer
> is like making love in a kanoo (?Spelling?) to us german types.
> Now us, we do have _beers_...
> ...and even then, there´s worlds of difference.
>
Canoe.
If anyone didn't get the joke about 'making love in a canoe', mail me
off-list for explanation. Can't see I'll be getting many.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 14:27:19 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
On Thursday, March 1, 2001, at 09:09 PM, Volker wrote:
> Oh, you Armerican types, never cease to amuse me. What you call beer
> is like making love in a kanoo (?Spelling?) to us german types.
I've never made love to a German type in a canoe so the comparison is lost on me. Unless you mean making love in a kangaroo, which is another matter entirely. We'll have to wait for Oz to wake up before we can resolve the physical possibility of that.
> Now us, we do have _beers_...
> ...and even then, there´s worlds of difference.
One day I'd like to take out some life insurance and go to a German beer festival. They look great.
ObTrav: Premium alcohol, where not prohibited by law/the gods/fashion, is in high demand on some worlds. Getting permission to export it, getting past local purity laws and then making sure the patron survives drinking it is no mean feat. Especially if the brain-worm at the bottom of the bottle isn't really pickled...
- - Rob.
- --
Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/
"Smash Global Capitalism! Spend less money!"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 06:59:59 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Help!
At 09:21 PM 03/01/01 -0800, you wrote:
>
>I can spoof you email on my mail server and kill one of your subscriptions.
>Which one do you want executed?
The pop.mindspring.com one.
TIA!
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 09:42:07 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
Check out PostgreSQL at www.postgresql.org It's the most robust and
portable free SQL I've used.
William
> Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 08:18:33 +1100
> From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
> I am strongly against using Access for this. I'd be much happier with
> something like one of the variants
> of SQL
>Is there a Windows SQL that is free either in the free beer sense (hey, this
> links the beer thread to the
> programming thread) or as in free speech sense ?
>
> Ian Whitchurch
>
> ------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:29:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Rob Myers wrote:
> On Thursday, March 1, 2001, at 09:09 PM, Volker wrote:
>
> > Oh, you Armerican types, never cease to amuse me. What you call beer
> > is like making love in a kanoo (?Spelling?) to us german types.
>
> I've never made love to a German type in a canoe so the comparison is
> lost on me. Unless you mean making love in a kangaroo, which is
> another matter entirely. We'll have to wait for Oz to wake up before
> we can resolve the physical possibility of that.
American beer=making love in a canoe=fucking close to water
lol,
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:36:55 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
Well, that'll teach me to be subtle. Of course, I already know how to be subtle, so maybe a more direct approach is in order. :-)
- - Rob.
On Friday, March 2, 2001, at 04:29 PM, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Rob Myers wrote:
>
> > I've never made love to a German type in a canoe so the comparison is
> > lost on me.
>
> American beer=...
- --
Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/
"Art is not a copy of the real world.
One of the damn things is enough."
- Unknown.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:52:04 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Good American Beer (it exists!)
> American beer=making love in a canoe=fucking close to water
>
I'd like to point out for the record that not all American beer is Oly,
Budweiser, Miller, etc.
For example, here in Oregon we have a vast variety of microBreweries (more
breweries than Germany according to 'Beer Hunter' Michael Jackson-the other
one). Those who have visited a McMeninmins pub will be the first to tell
you that a Hammerhead stout is no canoe boink. And the Willamette valley is
justly fames for it's Willamette hops, which are exported to many European
countries.
Much like it is in foreign countries, the best stuff doesn't get exported,
or even leave the state.
Jesse, Glenn, Doug. Next Fun Shoot Mark and I will have to arrange a trip
to one of our fine brewpubs, although I know you have you share in SF.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:08:35 -0600
From: "Thomas Vickers" <tvickers@conroe.isd.tenet.edu>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
traveller@lists.ient.com writes:
>I'd like to point out for the record that not all American beer is Oly,
>Budweiser, Miller, etc.
Here in Texas we have Shiner Bock, which is a great beer. Its a privately owned
brewery in the German/Czech region of Texas.
Pretty much the only thing I drink.
Not only do they produce their name sake bock, but they also brew a good wheat
beer and several other brews.
To judge or characterize American beer by drinking Budwieser is like me
spewing St. Pauli Girl out of my nose and condeming all German brews :)
TV
_______________________________________
We're not just going th shoot the bastards. We are going to cut out their
living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks. WE are going to
murder those lousy Hun bastards by the bushel.
George C. Scott (Patton)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 17:51:53 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
Am Friday, March 02, 2001, las ich folgendes:
>> > Eeeeewww! They send Corona your way, too??
>> > Yuck! Piss in a bottle! _Bum_piss in a bottle!
>> > I'll drink Budweiser before I'll drink Corona.
>> > I'll drink _OLY_ before I'll drink Corona!
>> Oh, you Armerican types, never cease to amuse me. What you call beer
>> is like making love in a kanoo (?Spelling?) to us german types.
>> Now us, we do have _beers_...
>> ...and even then, there´s worlds of difference.
>>
> Canoe.
Thanks!
> If anyone didn't get the joke about 'making love in a canoe', mail me
> off-list for explanation. Can't see I'll be getting many.
;-)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:11:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Rob Myers wrote:
> Well, that'll teach me to be subtle. Of course, I already know how to
> be subtle, so maybe a more direct approach is in order. :-)
>
Hey, on an international list like this one, if someone tells me they
don't get a joke, I tend to believe them.
(I have a fair number of friends who don't speak English well who are
always asking me to explain things. I've had to explain to Yutaka why
some black people address each other with a term beginning with "n" but he
can't, to Junko that a blowjob is not what you do to your hair after a
shower, etc...)
Kiri ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:14:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
Rupert Boleyn writes:
>
>
> On 1 Mar 2001, at 16:03, Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
> > Your average sector is about 450 worlds. Give it 1k per world and that's
> > 10-20 megabytes for the entire imperium. That's what I call a 'tiny
> > database'. I don't know what H&E produces, but I doubt it's more than 1k
> > per world.
>
> A friend of mine is an Oracle man. I don't think he thinks in units that
> small. :)
Heh. Certainly not my experience with Oracle. Anything under a gig is a tiny
database (1-10 gigs is merely small).
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:16:30 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!)
<Homer Simpson>
Mmmmm, machineguns....OOOO, beer!!!!
</Homer Simpson>
:)
I'll take ya' up on that.
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 8:52 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Good American Beer (it exists!)
>
>
> > American beer=making love in a canoe=fucking close to water
> >
>
> I'd like to point out for the record that not all American beer is Oly,
> Budweiser, Miller, etc.
>
> For example, here in Oregon we have a vast variety of microBreweries (more
> breweries than Germany according to 'Beer Hunter' Michael
> Jackson-the other
> one). Those who have visited a McMeninmins pub will be the first to tell
> you that a Hammerhead stout is no canoe boink. And the
> Willamette valley is
> justly fames for it's Willamette hops, which are exported to many European
> countries.
>
> Much like it is in foreign countries, the best stuff doesn't get exported,
> or even leave the state.
>
> Jesse, Glenn, Doug. Next Fun Shoot Mark and I will have to arrange a trip
> to one of our fine brewpubs, although I know you have you share in SF.
>
> Tod
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 18:19:09 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Am Friday, March 02, 2001, las ich folgendes:
> traveller@lists.ient.com writes:
>>I'd like to point out for the record that not all American beer is Oly,
>>Budweiser, Miller, etc.
> Here in Texas we have Shiner Bock, which is a great beer. Its a privately owned
> brewery in the German/Czech region of Texas.
> Pretty much the only thing I drink.
> Not only do they produce their name sake bock, but they also brew a good wheat
> beer and several other brews.
> To judge or characterize American beer by drinking Budwieser is like me
> spewing St. Pauli Girl out of my nose and condeming all German brews :)
Like I said, we have bad beer as well, but at least it has taste.
And in discerning a countries taste in beer usually one usually tends
to judge it by the biggest brands...
Not to say I dn´t like US beers, I do drink them when I am there, but
it´s just so damn hard to feel any effect other than the usual urine
rush ;-)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 18:15:46 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Am Friday, March 02, 2001, las ich folgendes:
>> American beer=making love in a canoe=fucking close to water
>>
> I'd like to point out for the record that not all American beer is Oly,
> Budweiser, Miller, etc.
I once saw imported german beer in a US liquor store. Not with the
rest of the beers, but with the hard liquor... ;-)
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3759
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3760
Date: | 3/2/01 11:26:01 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, March 2 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3760
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))
Re: Traveller software project
RE: Good American Beer (it exists!)
RE: Traveller software project
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: Traveller software project
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))
Good American Beer (it exists!)
RE: Traveller software project
Re: Traveller software project
Looking for an Artist....
RE: Looking for an Artist....
Re: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC
RE: Looking for an Artist....
Re: [TML] Beer the New Traveller software project
RE: Looking for an Artist....
Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))
RE: Looking for an Artist....
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 12:22:41 -0500 (EST)
From: "Richard J. Pugh" <rjpugh@patriot.net>
Subject: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))
Some time back, I had some friends visiting from a few states away, and
they were bowled over that I paid three times the price of Miller or Bud
for an ale that comes from a micro-brewery in Baltimore (I live in
Maryland, near DC).
After one sip of Chesapeake Amber, they understood. :)
In the SF genre, I once ran an adventure that took place on an old
agricultural space station that had been converted into a brewery. The
place was famous (in the story) for producing an evenly soothe and tasty
ale, largely because of the micro-gravity conditions.
Which makes me wonder, could ale (or wine or hard liquor) be produced in
micro-gravity? It's easy enough to build old-fashioned wooden barrels
and the other hardware into space, but would the absence of gravity have
an effect on the outcome? I know zilch about brewing.
Disclaimer: I know that most space structures in the Traveller universe
(in fact, with most sci-fi settings) have some kind of contra-grav
technology, but for this story I had ruled that the gravity grid only
operated in the crew compartments. It created an opportunity for zero-g
action later on in the story.
Richard Pugh
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 17:22:28 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
That reminds me, I must stock up on Absinthe...
- - Rob.
On Friday, March 2, 2001, at 05:15 PM, Volker wrote:
> I once saw imported german beer in a US liquor store. Not with the
> rest of the beers, but with the hard liquor... ;-)
- --
Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/
"Art is not a copy of the real world.
One of the damn things is enough."
- Unknown.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:56:56 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))
Richard J. Pugh wrote:
> In the SF genre, I once ran an adventure that took place on an old
> agricultural space station that had been converted into a brewery. The
> place was famous (in the story) for producing an evenly soothe and tasty
> ale, largely because of the micro-gravity conditions.
>
> Which makes me wonder, could ale (or wine or hard liquor) be produced in
> micro-gravity? It's easy enough to build old-fashioned wooden barrels
> and the other hardware into space, but would the absence of gravity have
> an effect on the outcome? I know zilch about brewing.
Hmmmm...I give the good inventive souls on board the ISS about a year or
two before they try...I suspect that once the biology lab gets set up
it'll be a lot easier to hide...
I also wonder if it hasn't already been done on Mir...that's not exactly
something they'd publish...
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:59:15 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> COMMIT;
You don't need a commit for DDL, only DML. :-P
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 17:59:23 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!)
It does make the heart grow fonder...hang on, that's wrong...
Dean
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Myers [mailto:robm@h2g2.com]
> Sent: 02 March 2001 17:22
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
>
>
> That reminds me, I must stock up on Absinthe...
>
> - Rob.
>
> On Friday, March 2, 2001, at 05:15 PM, Volker wrote:
>
> > I once saw imported german beer in a US liquor store. Not with the
> > rest of the beers, but with the hard liquor... ;-)
>
> --
> Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/
> "Art is not a copy of the real world.
> One of the damn things is enough."
> - Unknown.
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 18:04:38 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Heh. Certainly not my experience with Oracle. Anything under
> a gig is a tiny database (1-10 gigs is merely small).
In my current job our secondary application has an RDB (Oracle)
database in 15 countries each of which is around 230 Gb. And
that's not a replicated database, its unique data at each site.
We're in the process of merging that into a couple of data
centers ... say 5 sites in each and 5 remaining separate, so we
could have 2 databases of around 1150 Gb each. Disk space is
cheap ... the client would rather add another hard disk then go
to the trouble of defining an offline archive strategy.
(Makes my PC's 30 Gb hard disk look kinda whimpy.)
ObTrav: As data glut expands, faster and faster computer systems
take longer and longer to perform the same function. The players
arrive at a TL15 world only to discover that any search of the
local global net (even for trivial information) takes hours
longer than on the TL9 world they just left.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:02:14 GMT
From: Postmark Design Bureau <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
DaveShayne wrote:
> Heavy barrel Length=23cm Weight=.69Kg Price=Cr276 E= 4039joules
Ok, I'll admit to knowing nothing about this subject, but 23cm
seems to be a bit short for a 20mm sniper rifle barrel.
- --
Phil Kitching, http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Products Division
"Microwaving halfbaked ideas from across the galaxy"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 11:11:46 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
Trevor, Peter wrote:
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
>
>>> Is there a Windows SQL that is free either in the free beer
>>> sense (hey, this links the beer thread to the programming
>>> thread) or as in free speech sense ?
>>
>> InterBase. Free and Open Source.
>
>
> Thanks. I had originally wanted a free SQL-compliant RDBMS (ODBC
> for Windows) but had missed this one. From the blurb on the web
> it sounds ideal (support for BLOBs, too, so planetary maps and
> other graphics can be stored). I've downloaded it and will play
> with it this weekend. Ideally, a common Traveller database could
> be distributed as SQL scripts and loaded into the SQL-compliant
> RDBMS of your choice. I notice that InterBase has a Linux
> version (which would make porting "Traveller Universe" compliant
> software easier) ... not sure what to do about the Mac brigade.
Alas, not a heckuva lot until MacOSX comes out. Then we can port all these nice Open Source ones.
The Mac OS has been seriously deficient with respect to database apps
for a long long time, (pretty much only FileMaker and Acius 4D) despite
having some absolutely brilliant early efforts (such as the recently
revived Helix, a completely graphical, object oriented database/RAD
created in 1984 or so. see: http://www.helixtech.com/ I remember the
first review of it, in Byte magazine where they described two librarians
who purchased a Mac, got Helix, and proceeded to write a new version of
their check-out/in book tracking software. From scratch. Visual
computing environments are not all VB, and VB hardly represents the
state of the art.)
This _will_ change with the advent of Mac OSX.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:18:19 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
> Jesse, Glenn, Doug. Next Fun Shoot Mark and I will have to arrange a trip
> to one of our fine brewpubs, although I know you have you share in SF.
>
> Tod
Good plan, Tod! We have a McMeninmins right here in Corvallis. Personally,
I'm a big Terminator fan (the beer, not the Cyborg.)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 13:30:51 -0600
From: Chris Olson <chris@pdaguy.com>
Subject: Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))
Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Richard J. Pugh wrote:
>
>
>> In the SF genre, I once ran an adventure that took place on an old
>> agricultural space station that had been converted into a brewery. The
>> place was famous (in the story) for producing an evenly soothe and tasty
>> ale, largely because of the micro-gravity conditions.
>>
>> Which makes me wonder, could ale (or wine or hard liquor) be produced in
>> micro-gravity? It's easy enough to build old-fashioned wooden barrels
>> and the other hardware into space, but would the absence of gravity have
>> an effect on the outcome? I know zilch about brewing.
>
>
> Hmmmm...I give the good inventive souls on board the ISS about a year
> or two before they try...I suspect that once the biology lab gets set
> up it'll be a lot easier to hide...
>
> I also wonder if it hasn't already been done on Mir...that's not
> exactly something they'd publish...
>
Ok, time to chime in. I do home brew, and I've done *one* from scratch
brew (hard work, didn't turn out all that different from the malts I can
buy and was a whole lot more work...). Anyway, part of the beer brewing
process is making sure the carcasses from the yeast do not make it into
the final product (*shudder*). You do this by letting the brew settle
and then extracting the beer with a siphon from the above the /sludge/
on the bottom. I'm not sure why you don't filter the beer, but it's
probably because that would prevent some live yeast making into the
bottles and carbonating the result.
Okay, with that out of the way, how do I envision brewing in micro
gravity? I think the actual brewing in null-g would go quite well, and
help encourage a more even brewing process. BUT there would need to a
stage where gravity is used to gently encourage the precipitation of the
yeast corpses out of the brew. Probably by moving the barrel or by
slowly dialing up the gravity beneath it. Increasing the gravity to
beyond earths might actually improve the taste of the beer, as long as
it was done slowly.
So the adventure could in fact occur on a space station, it just needs a
little 'settling stage' that has variable gravity to work (IMHO, of course).
*WHEW* That may be my longest post to the TML so far....
Chris Olson
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 10:25:39 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Volker <volker@greimann.de> writes:
>Not to say I dn´t like US beers, I do drink them when I am there, but
>it´s just so damn hard to feel any effect other than the usual urine
>rush ;-)
Based on that statement, I have to assume that you've only sampled
the mass-produced American goat-piss we sell to tourists in mini-marts.
Good U.S. microbrewery beers can be a match for Germany's finest.
Back when I still worked for Howling Packrat (that's Hewlett-Packard
to the rest of you lot), I travelled to Germany a couple times a year.
On my first trip there, I fell in *LOVE* with a monastic brew, Andechs
Dopplebock. It is, without a doubt, the finest dark beer in the
Sagittarius arm of the Milky Way (and I may be unfairly restricting it
at that.) Having said that, I have since discovered several dark beers
brewed right here in my home state of Oregon (where SMGs are water-
cooled) that could give it a run for it's money.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 18:33:06 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project
Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Alas, not a heckuva lot until MacOSX comes out. Then we can
> port all these nice Open Source ones.
>
> The Mac OS has been seriously deficient with respect to database apps
> for a long long time, (pretty much only FileMaker and Acius
> 4D)
Hmmm ... does ODBC work withing SoftWindows? And is FileMaker/
Acius 4D SQL-compliant?
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:35:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
Trevor, Peter writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Heh. Certainly not my experience with Oracle. Anything under
> > a gig is a tiny database (1-10 gigs is merely small).
>
> In my current job our secondary application has an RDB (Oracle)
> database in 15 countries each of which is around 230 Gb. And
> that's not a replicated database, its unique data at each site.
Heh. Yes, there are some huge oracle systems out there. I'd still probably
say 10-100 gigs is medium-sized, 100-1000 gigs is large, and anything above
a terabyte probably qualifies as huge, but I may be showing my bias here.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:35:31 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: Looking for an Artist....
In our CT game the group just acquired a Beowulf class Far trader. The Ships
Name is "Mahina Tiare"
Mahina Tiare is Polynesian it means this
Mahina means Moon
Tiare means Flower
Also Mahina is Derived from Hina which is a Polynesian goddess of Life,
Death, and Rebirth.
Well I want to Put the adventures of the group on the Internet. but I am not
an Artist. I am looking for someone who could Draw us a Picture for our
website. I could pay a small amount if needed. if anyone can or would be
willing to assist me in this endeavor it would be appreciated.
Thanks
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:45:54 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....
Are you looking for the ship or the crew?
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:36 AM
> To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> Subject: Looking for an Artist....
>
>
> In our CT game the group just acquired a Beowulf class Far
> trader. The Ships
> Name is "Mahina Tiare"
>
> Mahina Tiare is Polynesian it means this
>
> Mahina means Moon
> Tiare means Flower
>
> Also Mahina is Derived from Hina which is a Polynesian goddess of Life,
> Death, and Rebirth.
>
> Well I want to Put the adventures of the group on the Internet.
> but I am not
> an Artist. I am looking for someone who could Draw us a Picture for our
> website. I could pay a small amount if needed. if anyone can or would be
> willing to assist me in this endeavor it would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bill
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 13:44:37 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC
>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 09:35:31 -0000
>From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] TravellerBrews LIC
> > As someone mentioned later (I'm not sure who) I think this
> > qualifies you as
> > the official TML beerhead. =) This really was a fascinating read.
>
>I'm flatter that I'm so memorable :|
The digest with your comment had been deleted by the time I started my
message. No offense was intended, honest. :(
> >
> > So... what would be in Scout Brew? Besides stuff that has to be set
> > outside the jumpspace bubble for the better part of a week...?
> >
>
>OUTSIDE the jump bubble? How would you get it back...pull on the rope? :)
Figuring out these sorts of things is what scouts on X-boats do for the
week they're cooped up, isn't it? =)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:53:07 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....
Well i was thinking Like a ships Symbol. Like a Polynesian Woman looking at
a flower with a moon in the back ground and a ship Flying around it or
something. Or a Picture of above and a picture of the ship with the Symbol
on it. Something like that.
Something to help create a feel for the site.
I dont know if that makes sense.
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Degraff [mailto:jedegraf@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:46 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....
Are you looking for the ship or the crew?
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:36 AM
> To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> Subject: Looking for an Artist....
>
>
> In our CT game the group just acquired a Beowulf class Far
> trader. The Ships
> Name is "Mahina Tiare"
>
> Mahina Tiare is Polynesian it means this
>
> Mahina means Moon
> Tiare means Flower
>
> Also Mahina is Derived from Hina which is a Polynesian goddess of Life,
> Death, and Rebirth.
>
> Well I want to Put the adventures of the group on the Internet.
> but I am not
> an Artist. I am looking for someone who could Draw us a Picture for our
> website. I could pay a small amount if needed. if anyone can or would be
> willing to assist me in this endeavor it would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> Bill
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 13:53:07 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Beer the New Traveller software project
>Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 08:29:38 -0800 (PST)
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
>Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
>American beer=making love in a canoe=fucking close to water
>
>lol,
>Kiri
*laugh* THIS is going to take some explaining to the boss!
"Why I laughed so loudly like that? Well, sir, it's like this...."
I fear I'm nowhere near the beer gourmet that some people are; I just have
to take peoples' word that (1) American beer is pretty close to what you
get out of a LHyd-LOx fuel cell, minus the power, and (2) non-American beer
is stong enough to give serious noogies to American beer. I guess one of
the defining factors could be how long the brew in question would have to
be run through a fuel purification plant.
Hey, I had to make this refer to Traveller somehow! =)
Except that bit about chocolate being used in brewing certain beverages
still rings a bell... =9
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:05:14 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....
Ship's Logo in otherwords :) Perfectly understandable.
I can't be much help with that one, but if somebody else can do the logo
nicely, I can slap it on my Beowulf and give you a shot of the ship :)
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:53 AM
> To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....
>
>
> Well i was thinking Like a ships Symbol. Like a Polynesian Woman
> looking at
> a flower with a moon in the back ground and a ship Flying around it or
> something. Or a Picture of above and a picture of the ship with the Symbol
> on it. Something like that.
>
> Something to help create a feel for the site.
>
> I dont know if that makes sense.
>
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jesse Degraff [mailto:jedegraf@cisco.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:46 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....
>
>
> Are you looking for the ship or the crew?
> Jesse
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
> > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:36 AM
> > To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> > Subject: Looking for an Artist....
> >
> >
> > In our CT game the group just acquired a Beowulf class Far
> > trader. The Ships
> > Name is "Mahina Tiare"
> >
> > Mahina Tiare is Polynesian it means this
> >
> > Mahina means Moon
> > Tiare means Flower
> >
> > Also Mahina is Derived from Hina which is a Polynesian goddess of Life,
> > Death, and Rebirth.
> >
> > Well I want to Put the adventures of the group on the Internet.
> > but I am not
> > an Artist. I am looking for someone who could Draw us a Picture for our
> > website. I could pay a small amount if needed. if anyone can or would be
> > willing to assist me in this endeavor it would be appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 12:05:19 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))
Chris Olson wrote:
> Okay, with that out of the way, how do I envision brewing in micro
> gravity? I think the actual brewing in null-g would go quite well, and
> help encourage a more even brewing process. BUT there would need to a
> stage where gravity is used to gently encourage the precipitation of the
> yeast corpses out of the brew. Probably by moving the barrel or by
> slowly dialing up the gravity beneath it. Increasing the gravity to
> beyond earths might actually improve the taste of the beer, as long as
> it was done slowly.
>
> So the adventure could in fact occur on a space station, it just needs a
> little 'settling stage' that has variable gravity to work (IMHO, of
> course).
>
> *WHEW* That may be my longest post to the TML so far....
And a good one...in microgravity the settling process is pretty easy...just spin the container.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:13:46 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....
COOL!
now to find a Logo Artist 8P
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Degraff [mailto:jedegraf@cisco.com]
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 11:05 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....
Ship's Logo in otherwords :) Perfectly understandable.
I can't be much help with that one, but if somebody else can do the logo
nicely, I can slap it on my Beowulf and give you a shot of the ship :)
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:53 AM
> To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....
>
>
> Well i was thinking Like a ships Symbol. Like a Polynesian Woman
> looking at
> a flower with a moon in the back ground and a ship Flying around it or
> something. Or a Picture of above and a picture of the ship with the Symbol
> on it. Something like that.
>
> Something to help create a feel for the site.
>
> I dont know if that makes sense.
>
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jesse Degraff [mailto:jedegraf@cisco.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:46 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....
>
>
> Are you looking for the ship or the crew?
> Jesse
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
> > Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 10:36 AM
> > To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> > Subject: Looking for an Artist....
> >
> >
> > In our CT game the group just acquired a Beowulf class Far
> > trader. The Ships
> > Name is "Mahina Tiare"
> >
> > Mahina Tiare is Polynesian it means this
> >
> > Mahina means Moon
> > Tiare means Flower
> >
> > Also Mahina is Derived from Hina which is a Polynesian goddess of Life,
> > Death, and Rebirth.
> >
> > Well I want to Put the adventures of the group on the Internet.
> > but I am not
> > an Artist. I am looking for someone who could Draw us a Picture for our
> > website. I could pay a small amount if needed. if anyone can or would be
> > willing to assist me in this endeavor it would be appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3760
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3761
Date: | 3/2/01 3:02:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, March 2 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3761
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))
re: Looking For...
Re: Looking For...
Re: Wealth
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Re: Micro gravity beer
Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it? IYTU?
Re: Nobles and the imperium
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Re: Wealth
Re: Nobles and the Imperium
YKYBPTTL when....
Traveller - The Database (E/R)
Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it? IYTU?
Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
Central Software Repository
Re: Traveller - The Database (E/R)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:24:03 -0600
From: Chris Olson <chris@pdaguy.com>
Subject: Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))
Does this count as my TML-newbie paper (so I'm 5 years late with it,
honest the dog ate it... :-) ?
Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Chris Olson wrote:
>
>
>> Okay, with that out of the way, how do I envision brewing in micro
>> gravity? I think the actual brewing in null-g would go quite well,
>> and help encourage a more even brewing process. BUT there would need
>> to a stage where gravity is used to gently encourage the
>> precipitation of the yeast corpses out of the brew. Probably by
>> moving the barrel or by slowly dialing up the gravity beneath it.
>> Increasing the gravity to beyond earths might actually improve the
>> taste of the beer, as long as it was done slowly.
>>
>> So the adventure could in fact occur on a space station, it just
>> needs a little 'settling stage' that has variable gravity to work
>> (IMHO, of course).
>>
>> *WHEW* That may be my longest post to the TML so far....
>
>
> And a good one...in microgravity the settling process is pretty
> easy...just spin the container.
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:14:44 -0800
From: clifford n linehan <cnl.rubicon@juno.com>
Subject: re: Looking For...
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 04:53:01 -0500 From: Jeff Zeitlin
<jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
>Not the Alien Module; it was an article written up and posted on
Freelance
>Traveller - I forgot exactly what section it appeared in, but look for
>something on the Order of Zar-tis. It's probably under "Kurishdam".
>
>Given the at-last-report-partially-not-quite-intact state of Downport,
the
>primary Freelance Traveller site, let me point you to the mirror, at
>http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz/.
>- --
>Jeff Zeitlin
>jzeitlin@cyburban.com
>
Thanks for the reference Jeff. I found it under the "Doing It My Way"
section.
The Order of Zar-Tis - A Daryen career for Megatraveller by Jason Kemp.
This is a good artical on what I can best describe as "Jedi Knights in
Traveller". It also provides a good description of the The Brand of
Zar-Tis, a TL16 personal melee weapon.
Thanks,
Clifford Linehan - cnl.rubicon@juno.com
http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller
Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:34:57 -0800
From: clifford n linehan <cnl.rubicon@juno.com>
Subject: Re: Looking For...
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 21:01:56 -0500 From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com
>>Greetings All,
>> Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in Traveller
to what
>>can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?
>
>ISTR a mention somewhere, probably either Book 0 or a JTAS editorial,
>mentioning light sabers as the sort of cool-looking-but-impossible thing
>that individual refs could add to their games, but which weren't going
to
>be included in 'real' Traveller. Probably not the sort of 'canon
reference'
>you were looking for...
>
>Trent
It must be in the JTAS, I just skimmed Book 0 and did not find a specific
reference to Light Sabers by name. There is a section pointing out that
GM's need to weigh the effects on overall balance of play in the
universe.
I do not want to justify the weapon in canon. I just wanted to find out
if there was a known reference that I did not have access to.
The reason for this search is that I recently found an old PC of mine
that has a light saber that was allowed by the GM at the time I created
the PC. If said weapon is canon I will allow my PC to keep it, if not
then it will be removed. The PC never saw much play, but it is a good PC.
Thanks,
Clifford Linehan - cnl.rubicon@juno.com
http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller
Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 21:34:39 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Wealth
Peter Newman writes:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote
>
>>Money isn't wealth. It's a promisory note. Until you can convert the money into
>>something you can burn, fondle, or eat it's just so much scrap paper/electronic
>>noise.
>
>If people will accept your money for their credits you get what you want.
But if people can't buy something they want for your money, they won't accept
it. And if no one is carting goods from your planet to theirs, they can't buy
anything for your money.
>If people wont accept your Imperial Credits within the Imperium then they're
>traitors.
Piffle. No law requires them to sell you anything if they don't want to. And if
you can't pay them with something they want, they won't want to.
>>But the only way to cash in that debt is for the Imperium to deliver something
>>valuable to the holder of that credit (Or, as will more often be the case,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>the only way for the Imperium to get any use out of the tax credits it has
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>recieved from a world is to buy stuff (or services) from that world.)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>The valuable good the Imperium delivers to it's member worlds
>is "Pay your taxes and don't get invaded by us."
I specifically mention the case of the Imperium wanting to spend credits
they've taxed away from a member world. The only way the Imperium can get
anything useful from a world is to spend those credits on stuff that can
be physically lifted off the planetary surface and moved elsewhere (Well,
they can also pay for services rendered on the spot, but there are obvious
limits to that. You can't buy an appendectomy on a planet and save it for
later; you have to go to that planet to get it.)
>Governments are nothing more than protection rackets. If the alternative is
>being invaded then the member worlds have a pretty good chance of getting
>those Imperial credits out of their subjects pockets .
But all that gets them is a promisory note. You can't eat a promisory note, you
can't use it to fuel your starships and you can't use it to pay someone on the
next planet over _unless_ there is some trade between the two planets.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 07:40:25 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
>From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
>Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
>
>Am Friday, March 02, 2001, las ich folgendes:
>
>>> American beer=making love in a canoe=fucking close to water
>>>
>
>> I'd like to point out for the record that not all American beer is Oly,
>> Budweiser, Miller, etc.
>
>I once saw imported german beer in a US liquor store. Not with the
>rest of the beers, but with the hard liquor... ;-)
At one time, I was living in Sydney, across the road from a pub and about a mile from the Carlton
Brewery. My favorite beer is Sheaf Stout, which is drunk in Australia by 80 year old alcoholics, and me.
Despite being a mile from the brewery, the local pub does not stock Sheaf Stout.
I go to Fairbanks, Alaska, a army and university town in the middle of nowhere in Alaska.
I go into the grog section of the local supermarket, and amongst all the imported beers I find ... Sheaf
Stout.
ObTravs should be pretty obvious.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 07:45:43 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Micro gravity beer
>From: "Richard J. Pugh" <rjpugh@patriot.net>
>Subject: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))
<beer stuff snipped>
>Disclaimer: I know that most space structures in the Traveller universe
>(in fact, with most sci-fi settings) have some kind of contra-grav
>technology, but for this story I had ruled that the gravity grid only
>operated in the crew compartments. It created an opportunity for zero-g
>action later on in the story.
A favorite FS optiminsation technique is only to put the artificial gravity where it is needed (ie crew
quarters, engineering and gunnery stations). The savings in money, volume, mass and power can be
substantial.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:10:06 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it? IYTU?
Charles,
Sorry for the delay - Real Life intruded for a while.
I can't recall if I've thanked you yet for your very
nice reply, so I'll do so now at the risk of repeating
myself. :) Thanks!
On 23 Feb 2001, at 0:16, Charles R Hensley wrote:
> Inresponse to all your questions. YES
>
> This is one place I like to compair the Imperium to the US (this should
> apply to many parts of the world, or the world in general). There is a
> major overriding culture that can be seen on ALL imperial worlds (lets
> call it the "standard imperial culture"). The level that this culture
> is seen on a world varies between just the portmaster at a Class E
> starport to entire worlds. The backwaters, underdeveloped, and/or low
> tech worlds tend to show the least "standard imperial culture", while
> the high tech, well developed, heavily traveled worlds tend to show the
> most. The "standard imperial culture" is maintained by the Nobles, news
> media, x-boat, etc.
OK, that's what I kind of thought, but it hadn't been spelled out in
the stuff I've read.
> In addition to the "standard imperial culture", there are major regional
> cultures, normally based around pre-Imperial empires (i.e. Vilani,
> solamani, vegan, etc) (see any officially published contact articles and
> many unofficial). But these major regional cultures may also show up in
> unlikely places (several megacorps are of Vilani origin and may have
> spread and maintained the Vilani culture elsewhere).
>
> There will be cultures that are entirely planet bound. those that wanted
> to maintain thier culture or a faxsimale there of may have moved to a
> location that would limit intrusion by other cultures (mostly
> backwaters). there will be conclaves of differing cultures on the major
> worlds (example any major US city has districts that have transplanted
> cultures from around the world, this should be true of most major cities
> around the world)
I've read bits on this list in the past and/or elsewhere that suggest
various pre-Terran Confederation Earth cultures moved out into various
areas of the Solomani Rim (Indian, Chinese, etc.?) Do you know of any
sources/references for this info?
> For examples, I would look at what ever region you live compair it to
> national culture, as seen on TV and other media. And then look at what
> ever backwater is near you, and then look at the big cities near you.
> Most if not all big cities or metropolitan areas have enclaves inwhich
> the majority of the inhabitants do not speak the national language,
> these enclaves will have a different culture than the majority of the
> surrounding area.
> For example, the area that I live in has a mixture of US, Southern,
and
> Midwest cultures, plus I know of several enclaves of Mexican, Lao,
and
> Vietnamese. And I know that I have not even looked for others.
Yes, Cleveland has it's cultural areas, some more commonly known,
others only by where various groups live in this decade (and a lot move
around - out to the suburbs to be specific). Sure there'd be areas for
more common cultural/religious groups. Hmm - could the be a "Zho-
town"/"Little Zhodane" on Regina?
Rob D.
- --
Rob
'But it is the universal weakness of mankind that what we are
given to administer we presently imagine we own.' -- H.G. Wells
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:13:22 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the imperium
On 2 Mar 2001, at 7:33, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>
> And that's just what I've been complaining about. You don't suddenly not have
> planetary barons, counts, dukes, princes, kings, and emperors just because you
> have an interstellar nobility added on top of that. Yet by changing SL B-F from
> planetary to interstellar titles, you effectively remove them from the social
> ladder. And that is not, IMO, right.
Yes, and maybe the various planetary nobility have been fighting the
keepers of the UPP standards since their worlds joined... :)
(i.e. it could be a political artifact if played that way, if UPPs are
in-game stats and not just metagame.)
<brainstorming - this could get ugly...>
Or the SL number of the UPP could be considered a kind of payscale -
the working classes need differentiation for tax purposes (i.e. you pay
based on what you earn and/or prominence in the society - hmm, not so
sure about that...), but anyway, the nobles being kind of employees of
the state administer the taxes of their territories and their personal
pay (if any) is not subject to individual taxation.
Otherwise you'd need a scale like this. And who'd ever roll anything
during chargen to get into Imperial nobility? (If that's desired, and
of course it's up to the ref, etc.)
B - Knight, planetary - may have an estate in a baronage
C - Baron, planetary - rules a baronage in a region
D - Marquis, planetary- rules a region in a county
E - Count, planetary - rules a county in a dukedom
F - Duke, planetary - rules a dukedom in a province of a nation/world
G - Prince, Planetary - rules one or more provinces of a nation/world
H - King, planetary - rules one or more nation-states or a world(s)
I - Emperor, pocket - rules one or more worlds (<<<11,000 :)
J - Knight, Imperial - may have an estate on a world
K - Baron, Imperial - rules a portion of a world
L - Marquis, Imperial - rules a world
M - Count, Imperial - rules a subsector
N - Duke, Imperial - rules a sector
O - Prince, Imperial - rules a province
P - Emperor, Imperial - rules the Imperium.
I can see possible problems with this scale - is there a need for H and
I, would "pocket emperors" even exist within the Imperium (unless it's
there in the scale to handle visiting foreign dignitaries) - and it
makes an Imperial Knight better than the ruler of several worlds.
Might have to overlap them, in which case where do you start? Is an
Imperial Knight more powerful/influential/special than a planetary
King? Duke? Count? Going from the correspondence of a pocket emperor,
controller of a few worlds, to an Imperial Count controlling several
worlds in a subsector I get this. I could see bumping the Imperials
up a level (to start at G) out of pride (it is there system after all).
So if you get to F in chargen a decision must be made as to which
branch to take.
B - Knight, planetary
C - Baron, planetary
D - Marquis, planetary
E - Count, planetary
F - Duke, planetary - Knight, Imperial
G - Prince, Planetary- Baron, Imperial
H - King, planetary - Marquis, Imperial
I - Emperor, pocket - Count, Imperial
J - - Duke, Imperial
K - - Prince, Imperial
L - - Emperor
I'm sure there are lots of problems with this, so fire away.
Rob D.
- --
Rob
'I used to have a handle on life, then it broke.'
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:13:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Ian or Katts wrote:
> At one time, I was living in Sydney, across the road from a pub and about a mile from the Carlton
> Brewery. My favorite beer is Sheaf Stout, which is drunk in Australia by 80 year old alcoholics, and me.
>
> Despite being a mile from the brewery, the local pub does not stock Sheaf Stout.
>
> I go to Fairbanks, Alaska, a army and university town in the middle of nowhere in Alaska.
>
> I go into the grog section of the local supermarket, and amongst all the imported beers I find ... Sheaf
> Stout.
>
> ObTravs should be pretty obvious.
Ha, that reminds me. Once upon a time there was a small beer and soda distributor in town; you went there and bought cases of stuff in returnable bottles. Well, My roomate and I were having a party and were in need of some cheap beer. This distributor stocked 'Old Milwaukee' so we got a case. For cheap beer ($6 a case) it was amazingly good. We later discovered that the parent company of the brand contracted out brewing to various local contract breweries. The one in Phoenix, apparently had a particularly talented brewmaster, who made even the cheap stuff taste good.
ObTrav: I'd suspect MOST 'manufactured foodstuffs' in the TU are handled
by local manufacturers working on contract, not by shipping things like
beer across a dozen parsecs. Thus Blatz Beer on Regina is likely to be a
little different than Blatz Beer on Trin.
Sometimes a lot different. This is why Brubecks goes to the lenghts it
does to supply it's extablishments with a concentrate rather than rely
on local breweries.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 13:36:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Wealth
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
> >If people will accept your money for their credits you get what you want.
>
> But if people can't buy something they want for your money, they won't
> accept it. And if no one is carting goods from your planet to theirs, they
> can't buy anything for your money.
More to the point, planets can't mint their own CrI anyway. Unless the planet
is selling stuff, it won't have any credits to buy things with.
The net effect is that, directly or indirectly, the Imperium receives _all_
taxes as material, because the only way to acquire CrI is to get them from
someone who has them or can mint them, and they're only minted by the
imperium; thus, in the end CrI represent sales to the Imperium.
Note that in FT at least, some worlds (high population, poor starport) can
have total trade which is lower than their theoretical tax burden. It's
anyone's guess just how they pay their taxes.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:48:31 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Nobles and the Imperium
Steve (Bloo) Daniels writes:
>Have you thought about looking at regional world populations
>when thinking about the relative influence of different noble
>ranks?
Yes. I wrote an article for _The Traveller Chronicle_ once where I worked out a
SL scale based on how many people a noble's "fief" constituted. (I put fief in
quotes because it doesn't have to be a real fief).
========================================
TABLES
Approximate
Description SL UPP Old Terran
code Equivalent
Near-noble (Gentry) 12 C Squire
Appointed noble 13 D Knight
Very rich/powerful non-noble 14 E Magnate
Hereditary noble, no base 15 F Banneret
Town-sized base (1000) 16 G Baron
County-sized base (10,000) 17 H Count/Earl
Region-sized base (100,000) 18 J Marquis/Duke
Province-sized base (1 million) 19 K Archduke/Prince
Country-sized base (10 million) 20 L King
Empire-sized base (100 million) 21 M Emperor
Continent-sized base (1 billion) 22 N NA
World-sized base (10 billion) 23 P NA
Modifications:
Pre-industrial society -4 Sovereign ruler +1
Industrial society -2 Elected or appointed official -1
Pre-stellar society -1 Heir to position -1
Early Stellar society 0 Younger children -2
Average Stellar society +1
High Stellar society +2 Minor non-human race -1
All modifications are guidelines only. Positions that reach 24 and above
will almost invariably recieve an Imperial noble title (So the ruler of a
planet with billions of citizens and a High Stellar technology would be at
least an Imperial marquis, propably more).
BTW, here is on of the illustrations I suggested for the article (none of them
were used). This one was supposed to illustrate the point that it isn't the
title itself that is important but the power associated with it:
At another brilliant gala ball. A man in a splendid, spiffed-up boiler
suit is looking haughtily at a man in a military uniform with small ducal
crowns for rank insignia. Behind the first man stands a small page
carrying a silken pillow on which rests a jewel-encrusted ceremonial
monkey wrench. Text: "Miserable worm! How dare you, a mere army duke,
address me, The Chief Mechanic, without being spoken to first?!"
> Regarding the Typical value for fiefs. Is that 'annual' value?
I think so.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:01:53 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: YKYBPTTL when....
On another list I'm on there was the following exchange:
=======================================================================
>At 2:00 PM -0500 3/2/01, Jim Ludwig wrote:
>Would also recommend popping a really fast new video card in there to
>go with all the processing muscle! IIRC, nVidia has started selling
>the GeForce 2 MX retail. My wife won't let me get one right now, but
>I can always dream...
Wifes... what a downer. But I would be bankrupt without mine. I have no
affinity with forms and numbers. I can honestly say that women are way
better with that stuff that we, poor half-brain guys, are.
========================================================================
And all I could think through the coffee leaking from my nose was
'Damned Ihatei!' ;-)
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 11:05:22 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Traveller - The Database (E/R)
Okay, lets start with the basics. Identifying entities and relationships
(assuming we are going to use a RDBMS, though I think this might suit an
OODBMS better).
Entities
Sector
SubSector
System
Star
World
GasGiant /* Seems to have different attributes from a world */
PlanetoidBelt /* Seems to have different attributes from a world */
Moon
StarPort (?) /* Do we want to go to this level of abstraction */
Relationships
Sector <-> SubSector 1:M Compulsory
SubSector <-> System 1:M Compulsory
System <-> Star 1:M Compulsory
System <-> World 0:M Optional
System <-> GasGiant 0:M Optional
System <-> PlanetoidBelt 0:M Optional
World <-> Moon 0:M Optional
GasGiant <-> Moon 1:M Compulsory
World <-> StarPort 1:1 Compulsory
Notes: System must have at least one World or one GasGiant or one
PlanetoidBelt.
So How does this look?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 14:04:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it? IYTU?
I wish I could stop thinking of yogurt.
OK...
On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Rob Davenport wrote:
>
> On 23 Feb 2001, at 0:16, Charles R Hensley wrote:
> > Inresponse to all your questions. YES
> >
> > This is one place I like to compair the Imperium to the US (this should
> > apply to many parts of the world, or the world in general). There is a
> > major overriding culture that can be seen on ALL imperial worlds (lets
> > call it the "standard imperial culture"). The level that this culture
> > is seen on a world varies between just the portmaster at a Class E
> > starport to entire worlds. The backwaters, underdeveloped, and/or low
> > tech worlds tend to show the least "standard imperial culture", while
> > the high tech, well developed, heavily traveled worlds tend to show the
> > most. The "standard imperial culture" is maintained by the Nobles, news
> > media, x-boat, etc.
>
> OK, that's what I kind of thought, but it hadn't been spelled out in
> the stuff I've read.
>
That's true, although most of the places US culture shows up in outside
the US aren't actually part of the US. Chinese culture is also pretty
pervasive-- you can find Chinatowns in most large cities.
> > In addition to the "standard imperial culture", there are major regional
> > cultures, normally based around pre-Imperial empires (i.e. Vilani,
> > solamani, vegan, etc) (see any officially published contact articles and
> > many unofficial). But these major regional cultures may also show up in
> > unlikely places (several megacorps are of Vilani origin and may have
> > spread and maintained the Vilani culture elsewhere).
I thought the K'Kree were the vegan empire??
> > There will be cultures that are entirely planet bound. those that wanted
> > to maintain thier culture or a faxsimale there of may have moved to a
> > location that would limit intrusion by other cultures (mostly
> > backwaters). there will be conclaves of differing cultures on the major
> > worlds (example any major US city has districts that have transplanted
> > cultures from around the world, this should be true of most major cities
> > around the world)
>
> I've read bits on this list in the past and/or elsewhere that suggest
> various pre-Terran Confederation Earth cultures moved out into various
> areas of the Solomani Rim (Indian, Chinese, etc.?) Do you know of any
> sources/references for this info?
Well, that's sort of how I did it. But I don't know that it was ever
canon.
> > For examples, I would look at what ever region you live compair it to
> > national culture, as seen on TV and other media. And then look at what
> > ever backwater is near you, and then look at the big cities near you.
> > Most if not all big cities or metropolitan areas have enclaves inwhich
> > the majority of the inhabitants do not speak the national language,
> > these enclaves will have a different culture than the majority of the
> > surrounding area.
> > For example, the area that I live in has a mixture of US, Southern,
> and
> > Midwest cultures, plus I know of several enclaves of Mexican, Lao,
> and
> > Vietnamese. And I know that I have not even looked for others.
>
> Yes, Cleveland has it's cultural areas, some more commonly known,
> others only by where various groups live in this decade (and a lot move
> around - out to the suburbs to be specific). Sure there'd be areas for
> more common cultural/religious groups. Hmm - could the be a "Zho-
> town"/"Little Zhodane" on Regina?
What's funny about such places is the way they tend to shift. Chinatown
in SF used to be Cantonese-speaking, today all the Cantonese speakers live
in the Sunset/Richmond area and Chinatown is Mandarin-speaking much more
than it used to be. There is a heavy Korean presence in Japantown, and
many of the Japanese have moved into the Tenderloin.
Kiri ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 14:15:07 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Beer the New Traveller software project
>From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
>Oh, you Armerican types, never cease to amuse me. What you call beer
>is like making love in a kanoo (?Spelling?) to us german types.
What's wrong with making love in a canoe? Don't knock it if you haven't
tried it. It takes a lot of focus and consistency, otherwise you'll tip
the canoe over. What does this have to do with beer, anyway? It's quite
the mixed metaphor -- although I do generally agree that American beers
are not as good as European beers (specifically Finnish, Swedish, and
German) that I've consumed in Europe.
Ob Traveller: We know a little about Eiswein from The Traveller Book (or
maybe it's the Traveller Adventure; I don't recall). What about beer --
who makes the best, who consumes the most, what flavors does it come in?
I think the Aslan in the rimward parts of the Marches are particularly
fond of beers made with fermented dust-spice.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 11:24:49 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Central Software Repository
The talk about a standardised Traveller Database and XML format got me
thinking (dangerous thing that). How about we share components. Like,
if/when we get a standardised Traveller UWP database agreed on, we write
standard components to produce the SQL and XML in a variety of
languages that can just be dropped into projects.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:59:47 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller - The Database (E/R)
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> Okay, lets start with the basics. Identifying entities and relationships
> (assuming we are going to use a RDBMS, though I think this might suit an
> OODBMS better).
Well, OO in that the DB we use needs to support BLOBS for maps and suchlike.
> Entities
> Sector
> SubSector
> System
> Star
> World
> GasGiant /* Seems to have different attributes from a world */
> PlanetoidBelt /* Seems to have different attributes from a world */
> Moon
> StarPort (?) /* Do we want to go to this level of abstraction */
Worlds can have more than one starport, so yes, I think so.
>
> Relationships
> World <-> StarPort 1:1 Compulsory
Worlds can have more than one Starport so it's World<-> StarPort 1:M Compulsory This is where we do need a starport table, to specify the Main starport of worlds. (If we go for that level of abstraction. Additional 'for color' starports could go into a catchall comments field on the world table.)
> So How does this look?
Looks 'bout right. My oly reservation was the System <-> <something>
I'll have to look, I'm not sure if any of the various world generation
systems allow naked stars. First In does not, but it's been a while
since I used any of the others.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3761
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3762
Date: | 3/2/01 7:06:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Friday, March 2 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3762
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Looking for an Artist....
Scout Brew logo...
Re: Scout Brew logo...
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Re: Looking for an Artist...
RE: Scout Brew logo...
RE: TravellerBrews LIC
Re: Scout Brew logo...
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Looking for an Artist....
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Help! was [Arrghh!!]
RE: Looking for an Artist....
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Looking For...
Re: Micro gravity beer
RE: Traveller software project
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Re: Sayat
Re: Wealth
Re: Wealth
[Fwd: Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it? IYTU?]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 14:59:47 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....
William Lane <wlane@Asera.com> writes:
>Well i was thinking Like a ships Symbol. Like a Polynesian Woman looking at
>a flower with a moon in the back ground and a ship Flying around it or
>something. Or a Picture of above and a picture of the ship with the Symbol
>on it. Something like that.
One ships logo, coming right up!
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:01:00 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Scout Brew logo...
Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:
http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/
Now hopefully, Loren and Steve won't sue me! :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 15:34:52 -0800
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Scout Brew logo...
> Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:
>
> http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/
>
> Now hopefully, Loren and Steve won't sue me! :^)
>
> - Mark C.
>
LOL, I like it!
If they do sue, I'm willing to contribute (a little) to your defense fund.
Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor
Next year, at Burning Man!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 23:02:21 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Am Friday, March 02, 2001, las ich folgendes:
>> Despite being a mile from the brewery, the local pub does not stock Sheaf Stout.
>>
>> I go to Fairbanks, Alaska, a army and university town in the middle of nowhere in Alaska.
>>
>> I go into the grog section of the local supermarket, and amongst all the imported beers I find ... Sheaf
>> Stout.
>>
>> ObTravs should be pretty obvious.
;-) That reminds me:
In US Magazines I have sometimes seen alcoholic beverages that are
marketed as german made, such as Rumple Minze and others. Well I have
yet to see those here....
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:40:33 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Looking for an Artist...
William Lane <wlane@Asera.com> writes:
>In our CT game the group just acquired a Beowulf class Far trader. The Ships
>Name is "Mahina Tiare"
<snip>
>Well I want to Put the adventures of the group on the Internet. but I am not
>an Artist. I am looking for someone who could Draw us a Picture for our
>website. I could pay a small amount if needed. if anyone can or would be
>willing to assist me in this endeavor it would be appreciated.
Bill, I just threw something together for you. You can review it at:
http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/ship_logo/
If it suits your needs, you can ask Jesse to take the big 300 dpi image
and texture-map it onto a Beowulf-class ship for you. If this isn't what
you had in mind, give me a little more detail and I'll have another go at
it.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 15:46:41 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Scout Brew logo...
I Love it 8)
its great
Hasta
me
- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark F. Cook [mailto:markc@peak.org]
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 3:01 PM
To: Traveller Mail List
Subject: Scout Brew logo...
Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:
http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/
Now hopefully, Loren and Steve won't sue me! :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:14:10 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: TravellerBrews LIC
Jones, Dean wrote :
>
> OMG! Does this make Jeff a Beerhead?
No, that's crass. We're Hopheads
Or perhaps BeerbBellies ?
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:08:15 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Scout Brew logo...
Mark F. Cook wrote:
> Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:
>
> http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/
>
Fax: 541-745-5818
Love it!!!
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:20:58 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
<snip>
> What I'd like to propose is that future databases be built to a
> common database design, which other programs can call from and
> add to.
<snip>
> If there is an interest I'll start posting the database design
> I've got so far in plain text form to the StuffOnline website for
> discussion. Later I can put a few sample databases (Classic,
> TNE, Milieu Zero, etc) online for people to download and
> customise.
>
> Comments?
It should be defined in XML, either as DTD, or preferably using XML-Data.
I have already done a DTD, but it would be better to have it in XML-Data.
Just make sure it uses the W3C standard, not Microsoft's properietary
modification(XDR).
If you must stick with older technology, it should be defined in SQL97 DDL,
not a proprietary file format.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 00:14:59
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....
Bill,
Your description of the logo sounded familiar. Take a look at the Hawaiian
Airlines logo at:
http://www.hawaiianair.com
It might provide a starting point. Let me know if that is something like you
had in mind. I can take a cut at putting something together for you.
John
>From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
>
>Well i was thinking Like a ships Symbol. Like a Polynesian Woman looking at
>a flower with a moon in the back ground and a ship Flying around it or
>something. Or a Picture of above and a picture of the ship with the Symbol
>on it. Something like that.
>
>Something to help create a feel for the site.
>
>I dont know if that makes sense.
>
>Bill
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:24:19 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
Rob Myers wrote:
> Hey, great minds think alike. :-)
>
> Here's a DTD for a simple-minded Traveller Markup Language.
Well, I still feel that XML-Data is a better idea, but if you want a DTD,
the one I currently use is reproduced below :
<!-- survey.dtd -->
<!-- survey is the root of the document -->
<!ELEMENT survey (textdetails, sector*)>
<!ATTLIST survey
name CDATA #IMPLIED
>
<!ELEMENT sector (textdetails, subsectors?)>
<!ATTLIST sector
name CDATA #IMPLIED
xpos (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A | B | C | D | E | F)
#REQUIRED
ypos (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8) #REQUIRED
>
<!ELEMENT textdetails (name, description*, history*)>
<!ELEMENT name (#PCDATA)>
<!ELEMENT description (#PCDATA)>
<!ELEMENT history (#PCDATA)>
<!ELEMENT subsector (textdetails, subsectorCapital?, system*)>
<!ATTLIST subsector
position (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A | B | C | D | E | F)
#REQUIRED
>
<!-- The subsectors element contains the 16 subsectors of the sector -->
<!ELEMENT subsectors (subsector, subsector, subsector, subsector, subsector,
subsector, subsector, subsector, subsector, subsector, subsector, subsector,
subsector, subsector, subsector, subsector)>
<!ELEMENT subsectorCapital (#PCDATA)>
<!ELEMENT system (textdetails, star+)>
<!ATTLIST system
hex (0101 | 0101 | 0102 | 0103 | 0104 | 0105 | 0106 | 0107 | 0108 | 0109 |
0110 | 0201 | 0201 | 0202 | 0203 | 0204 | 0205 | 0206 | 0207 | 0208 | 0209 |
0210 | 0301 | 0301 | 0302 | 0303 | 0304 | 0305 | 0306 | 0307 | 0308 | 0309 |
0310 | 0401 | 0401 | 0402 | 0403 | 0404 | 0405 | 0406 | 0407 | 0408 | 0409 |
0410 | 0501 | 0501 | 0502 | 0503 | 0504 | 0505 | 0506 | 0507 | 0508 | 0509 |
0510 | 0601 | 0601 | 0602 | 0603 | 0604 | 0605 | 0606 | 0607 | 0608 | 0609 |
0610 | 0701 | 0701 | 0702 | 0703 | 0704 | 0705 | 0706 | 0707 | 0708 | 0709 |
0710 | 0801 | 0801 | 0802 | 0803 | 0804 | 0805 | 0806 | 0807 | 0808 | 0809 |
0810) #REQUIRED
>
<!ELEMENT star (textdetails?, satellites?)>
<!ATTLIST star
type (O5 | O6 | O7 | O8 | O9 | B0 | B1 | B2 | B3 | B4 | B5 | B6 | B7 | B8 |
B9 | A0 | A1 | A2 | A3 | A4 | A5 | A6 | A7 | A8 | A9 | F0 | F1 | F2 | F3 |
F4 | F5 | F6 | F7 | F8 | F9 | G0 | G1 | G2 | G3 | G4 | G5 | G6 | G7 | G8 |
G9 | K0 | K1 | K2 | K3 | K4 | K5 | K6 | K7 | K8 | K9 | M0 | M1 | M2 | M3 |
M4 | M5 | M6 | M7 | M8 | M9) #REQUIRED
size (Ia | Ib | II | III | IV | V | VI | D) #REQUIRED
mass CDATA #IMPLIED
luminosity CDATA #IMPLIED
orbit (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15)
#IMPLIED
year CDATA #IMPLIED
>
<!ELEMENT satellites (satellite*, ring*, belt*, smallGasGiant*,
largeGasGiant*, star*)*>
<!ATTLIST satellite
orbit (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15)
#REQUIRED
year CDATA #IMPLIED
>
<!ELEMENT satellite (textdetails?, profile, satellites?)>
<!ATTLIST ring
orbit (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15)
#REQUIRED
>
<!ELEMENT ring (textdetails?, profile)>
<!ATTLIST belt
orbit (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15)
#REQUIRED
>
<!ELEMENT belt (textdetails?, profile)>
<!ATTLIST smallGasGiant
orbit (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15)
#REQUIRED
year CDATA #REQUIRED
>
<!ELEMENT smallGasGiant (textdetails?, profile, satellites?)>
<!ATTLIST largeGasGiant
orbit (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15)
#REQUIRED
year CDATA #REQUIRED
>
<!ELEMENT largeGasGiant (textdetails?, profile, satellites?)>
<!ELEMENT profile (base*)>
<!ATTLIST profile
port (A | B | C | D | E | F | G | H | Y | X) "Y"
size (0 | R | S | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A | B | C | D | E |
F) "0"
atmosphere (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A | B | C | D | E | F)
"0"
hydrographics (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A) "0"
population (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A) "0"
government (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A | B | C | D) "0"
lawlevel (0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A) "0"
techlevel (0 | R | S | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | A | B | C | D |
E | F | G | H | I | J | K | L) "0"
tradeClass (None | Agricultural | Non-Agricutural | Industrial |
Non-industrial | Poor | Rich) "None"
TASClassification (None | Green | Amber | Red) "None"
>
<!ELEMENT base EMPTY>
<!ATTLIST base
type (Naval | Scout | WayStation) #REQUIRED
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:29:18 -0600
From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
Subject: RE: Help! was [Arrghh!!]
Doug Berry wrote [on Wed, 28 Feb 2001 07:43:23 -0800]:
and later [on Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:10:03]:
>Now I'm getting two copies of every message! Is there any way to
check to
>see if I'm subscribed twice?
<snip>
>Somehow, I have ended up subscribed to the list twice. once as
>gridlore@mindspring.com, and again as gridlore@pop.mindspring.com
So how did it turn out? I've sorta had a similar problem (I can get
rid of one but
not the other and the one I keep won't let me post. Not a big problem
if your a
lurker but annoying non the less).
From Tod Glenn: >Let me know if it works.< Ditto!
Dan Roseberry [plop101] Hot Springs, Arkansas
end
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:28:30 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....
Well i looked at Marks. It is really nice.
however the idea i had was sort foa cross between it and the one you showed
me with the Hawaiian Air logo.
i head and shoulders shot of the girl facingto the left or right. sort of
looking Down at a Flower cupped in her hands as the moon was sort of framing
it sort of Like Marks.
I really appreciate this from all who are helping. Wished i was an artist 8P
thanks
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: John Lambert [mailto:hovtej@hotmail.com]
Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 4:15 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Looking for an Artist....
Bill,
Your description of the logo sounded familiar. Take a look at the Hawaiian
Airlines logo at:
http://www.hawaiianair.com
It might provide a starting point. Let me know if that is something like you
had in mind. I can take a cut at putting something together for you.
John
>From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
>
>Well i was thinking Like a ships Symbol. Like a Polynesian Woman looking at
>a flower with a moon in the back ground and a ship Flying around it or
>something. Or a Picture of above and a picture of the ship with the Symbol
>on it. Something like that.
>
>Something to help create a feel for the site.
>
>I dont know if that makes sense.
>
>Bill
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:43:57 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
Trevor, Peter wrote :
> Er, so if my 'database' has grown to include all canonical
> sectors of the 3I and describes them down to the level generated
> by Heaven&Earth (including planetary maps), isn't that going to
> (a) take a long time to load into memory, and
> (b) require an awful lot of memory?
A single fully detailed (according to Book 6) star-system with some
aditional descriptive text takes less than 10K in my XML format.
So if every hex in the known Traveller universe had a fully detailed
starsystem the entire storage required would be around 1.85 Gb. As less than
half the hexes actually have starsystems that's about 900Mb.
I suspect an Access database with the same amount of information would be a
_lot_ bigger., Access is notoriously inefficvient ind disk storage. (I've
had Access databases that were 4Mb in size but only contained about 50k of
actual data)
I would suggest that sectors be stored in a seperate file in this model,
with the "universal" file represented only by a reference to the sector
files.
A fully detailed Sector should be around 7 to 8 Mb in size,
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:45:54 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Looking For...
Cliff Linehan wrote:
> Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in
> Traveller to what can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?
Yes. In an Editorial in JTAS, where they explained why they wouldn't do it.
<grin>
I also remember one in an old White Dwarf or Dragon article.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:45:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Micro gravity beer
>From: Chris Olson <chris@pdaguy.com>
>*WHEW* That may be my longest post to the TML so far....
411 words, according to WordPerfect; well-chosen ones according to this
reader. Would that we all could exercise such restraint.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:58:26 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project
Ian or Katts wrote :
> Is there a Windows SQL that is free either in the free beer sense
> (hey, this links the beer thread to the
> programming thread) or as in free speech sense ?
Yes. There are windows implementations of MySQL available.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 17:31:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Frank G. Pitt writes:
> A single fully detailed (according to Book 6) star-system with some
> aditional descriptive text takes less than 10K in my XML format.
>
> So if every hex in the known Traveller universe had a fully detailed
> starsystem the entire storage required would be around 1.85 Gb. As less
> than half the hexes actually have starsystems that's about 900Mb.
There's less than 15,000 canon worlds. More like 150 Mb, or 4-5 MB/sector.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:35:54 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au> wrote
> At one time, I was living in Sydney, across the road from
> a pub and about a mile from the Carlton
> Brewery. My favorite beer is Sheaf Stout, which is drunk
> in Australia by 80 year old alcoholics, and me.
> Despite being a mile from the brewery, the local pub does
> not stock Sheaf Stout.
> I go to Fairbanks, Alaska, a army and university town in the
> middle of nowhere in Alaska.
> I go into the grog section of the local supermarket, and amongst
> all the imported beers I find ... Sheaf Stout.
What year was this? Are you sure you weren't in a liquor store?
It is _illegal_ for a supermarket to sell beer (or any sort of
alcohol) in this state. Only liquor stores and bars can sell
alcohol.
> ObTravs should be pretty obvious.
But few traveller planets will be as much of a hell hole as
Fairbanks is, so it's not a useful comparison. :)
Lets see at Cr 1,000 per jump per kilo liter (Yes, I know
it's different in G:trav) then transporting a beer would
cost less than CR 4 per jump per six-pack. If you transported
it via jump 4 long range liners it would cost CR 40+ per
drink to transport it across the Imperium.
It might be an amusing quirk for a Traveller character to
have a favorite beer that is micro brewed in another sector
and to insist on drinking no other, no matter what it costs.
6 beers at 12+ ounces each is less than 2 liters. Double the
volume to four liters to account for the bottles, packaging
and shipping containers to get 4 liters or 0.004 kilo liters.
If you package the beer a bit better a six-pack could be more
like 3 liters.
I'm sure that the mass market Imperial beers would be dehydrated
at the factory and then reconcentrated with water at the factory.
They'd probably taste like it too.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:40:57 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Sayat
> Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
> > The Imperial Ministry of Commerce has not yet handed down a ruling on
> > whether the PMPP is to be regulated as a "concealable weapon", however.
>
> Hmm. Another perspective to the PMPP. Checking the volumes of
> the plasma weapon components and assuming that the weapon is
> cylindrical in shape, its diameter is about 9 cm. That might be
> hard to conceal.
It, er, can be seen as designed to be concealed in a flexible
body cavity that is more than capable of accommodating objects
of that size....
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:52:09 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Wealth
Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote
> Peter Newman writes:
> >Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote
> >
> >> Money isn't wealth. It's a promisory note. Until you can convert the money
> >> into something you can burn, fondle, or eat it's just so much scrap paper
> >If people will accept your money for their credits you get what you want.
>
> But if people can't buy something they want for your money, they won't accept
> it. And if no one is carting goods from your planet to theirs, they can't buy
> anything for your money.
>
> >If people wont accept your Imperial Credits within the Imperium then they're
> >traitors.
> Piffle. No law requires them to sell you anything if they don't want to. And if
> you can't pay them with something they want, they won't want to.
Are you trying to tell me that when you walk into a store with
Imperial Credits and the shopkeeper refuses to accept them that
the Imperial government is going to let them get away with it.
That sort of thing was directly responsible for the fall of the
Rule of Man and the Long Night. Do you honestly think that the
Third Imperium is going to allow it?
> >The valuable good the Imperium delivers to it's member worlds
> >is "Pay your taxes and don't get invaded by us."
>
> I specifically mention the case of the Imperium wanting to spend credits
> they've taxed away from a member world. The only way the Imperium can get
> anything useful from a world is to spend those credits on stuff that can
> be physically lifted off the planetary surface and moved elsewhere (Well,
> they can also pay for services rendered on the spot, but there are obvious
> limits to that. You can't buy an appendectomy on a planet and save it for
> later; you have to go to that planet to get it.)
The most expensive goods the Imperium uses are probably
capital class starships. Canon establishes that many types
of starships are built at many locations.
The way I see it the Imperium demands that people accept Imperial
credits. When they want something they buy it on location, hire
someone to deliver it, or transport it themselves in their own
(typically military) starships that they purchased using Imperial
Credits or which they had built by yard crew paid in Imperial credits.
The Imperial credit is a symbol of the idea of the Imperium. When
you reject the credit you are rejecting the Imperium. Yes, of course,
the Imperial credit is intrinsically nothing more than pretty
extruded plastic with cunning anti counterfeiting measures but
the common acceptance of the Imperial credit is one of the key reasons
for the creation of the Imperium in the first place (to promote
trade, which common currencies do).
> >Governments are nothing more than protection rackets. If the alternative is
> >being invaded then the member worlds have a pretty good chance of getting
> >those Imperial credits out of their subjects pockets .
>
> But all that gets them is a promisory note. You can't eat a promisory note, you
> can't use it to fuel your starships and you can't use it to pay someone on the
> next planet over _unless_ there is some trade between the two planets.
If the next planet over will not accept your Imperial credits
they are saying that they do not believe that the Imperium is
good for the debt. For a member world to say that is clearly
rebellious. There is a very good reason why the Imperial navy
has weapons of mass destruction and it is not the Zhodani.
Read your MT.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 20:56:52 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Wealth
On 2 Mar 01, at 21:34, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> But all that gets them is a promisory note. You can't eat a promisory note, you
> can't use it to fuel your starships and you can't use it to pay someone on the
> next planet over _unless_ there is some trade between the two planets.
Or at least trade between the second planet and still other planets,
not necessarily the first one in question, yes?
That is, you're on planet A, playing someone from planet B in
Imperial Promisory Note Credits which mean nothing on planet A
(rockball?) but because planet B is part of the Imperium Trading
Cooperative and trades with planets C and others that *do* recognize
credits, the transaction still works (has value for both).
Rob D.
- --
Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net
'Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy.'
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:03:18 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: [Fwd: Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it? IYTU?]
Rob Davenport wrote:
>
> OK, that's what I kind of thought, but it hadn't been spelled out in
> the stuff I've read.
>
Thats OK, I don't think it is spelled out anywhere.
>
> I've read bits on this list in the past and/or elsewhere that suggest
> various pre-Terran Confederation Earth cultures moved out into various
> areas of the Solomani Rim (Indian, Chinese, etc.?) Do you know of any
> sources/references for this info?
>
Well , Supplement 10 lists several "Idealogical Refugees" that colonized
whole worlds.
Aventure 5. Trillion Credit Squadron. Has an area settled by the European
Space Agency. All worlds have European sounding names.
Alien Module 6: states that at the start of the intersteller wars, Terra only
had colonies in-system, Alpha Centuri, and Barnards Star. The last 2 would
have had only 22 years from the first interrstellar J-Drive flight to be
developed. During the Interstellar Wars, mass emigrations took place to put
Terrans on Vilani worlds as an "occupation" (upper level government and
business positions). During this time a "Terran culture" and the Anglic
language were developed. During the Long Night, The captured worlds started
developing a local culture which varried greatly from one world to the next.
>From this an assumption can be made that during the emigration, cultural
groups tried to stay together. The common language was new to most people,
therefore most would be bylingual, with Anglic as a second language. Keeping
with people that spoke the same first language would be likely. Therefore
the local cultures that were developed cold be strongly based on former local
Terran cultures.
MegaTraveller Alien Vol 2.: pg 8 members of the Solomani Confederation:
Grand United States of Quesada (Aldebaran) (estados Unitos Grande de
Quesada) Hispanic
Hanuman Systems (Langere) Hindu
New Slavic Solidarity (Magyar) Russian and European
Reformed Dootchen Estates (Maggyar) South African (Slave states)
Third Reformed French Confederate Republic (Aldebraran)
Sulawesi/Nanfeng (1025 Canopus) Indochinese
Rim Anglic is a common second language in the Solomani Rim.
pg 18 "Despite Anglic's wide reach, four out of five Confederation citizens
speak another tongue as thier first language."
pg 20. "Various ehtnic or national groups volunteered for these early rimward
colonizations."
etc., this is the book you want for info on Old earth cultures that expanded
to different worlds. But may be decanonized due to being from Digest Group.
You might want to check out the Gurps version of the Solomani Rim (Whatever
it is called)
>
> Yes, Cleveland has it's cultural areas, some more commonly known,
> others only by where various groups live in this decade (and a lot move
> around - out to the suburbs to be specific). Sure there'd be areas for
> more common cultural/religious groups. Hmm - could the be a "Zho-
> town"/"Little Zhodane" on Regina?
>
sure "Little Zhodane" to residents and Zhotown to outsiders. site of many
fires during the frontier wars.
Good luck and have fun.
Charles
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3762
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3763
Date: | 3/3/01 6:56:34 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Saturday, March 3 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3763
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it? IYTU?
Re: Explaining
Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it? IYTU?
Looking For...
Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
Re: Traveller software project
OK, this should now be working..
Re: Traveller - The Database (E/R)
Re: [TML] Scout Brew logo...
RE: Traveller - The Database (E/R)
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))
Re: Traveller - The Database (E/R)
Re: Wealth
RE: Scout Brew logo...
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Wealth (Was: Nobles and the Imperium)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:06:05 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it? IYTU?
Kiri wrote:
>I thought the K'Kree were the vegan empire??
No they are the Vegitarian Empire.
Vegan Autonomous District Vega subsector/Solomani Rim Controls 1 1/2
subsectors
Humanoid minor race
Mentioned in Supplement 10: The Solomani Rim, Traveller Alien Module 6:
Solomani, and MegaTraveller Alien Solomani & Aslan.
There was a full article on them somewhere (Traveller Digest??)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 22:12:49 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Explaining
In a message dated 02-Mar-01 11:21:59 AM Central Standard Time,
owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
> (I have a fair number of friends who don't speak English well who are
> always asking me to explain things. I've had to explain to Yutaka why
> some black people address each other with a term beginning with "n" but he
> can't, to Junko that a blowjob is not what you do to your hair after a
> shower, etc...)
In Sweden, I ran into a fellow who had trouble with the phrase: "First you
chop tree down, then you chop it up."
I had trouble explaining it.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 20:07:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it? IYTU?
On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Charles R Hensley wrote:
> Kiri wrote:
>
> >I thought the K'Kree were the vegan empire??
>
> No they are the Vegitarian Empire.
>
> Vegan Autonomous District Vega subsector/Solomani Rim Controls 1 1/2
> subsectors
>
I knew that. =)
But I live in San Francisco, where we have "vegans": vegetarians who
think vegetarianism (which they call ovo-lacto-vegetarianism) isn't tough
enough. Not only will they not eat meat or fish, they won't eat eggs or
dairy products, because even though these don't require the death of an
animal (most chicken eggs we eat aren't fertilized) they are the product
of "animal slavery".
whatever. Anyhow, I thought the K'Kree would like them.
People who throw paint on fur coats (but not, I note, on the leather
jackets of bikers and S/M types) are often vegans.
I once belonged to the Unitarian Church of SF, which is full of vegans
(like, most of the youth group is vegan) and ate more vegan food than I
ever again want to eat in my life. There are some lovely tofu-zucchini
casseroles with tomato sauce out there that I might even enjoy if people
didn't try to convince me that they were lasagna (which must have meat,
and at least three kinds of cheese, in it.)
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 21:12:16 -0800
From: Clifford N Linehan <cnl.rubicon@juno.com>
Subject: Looking For...
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:45:54 +1300 From: "Frank G. Pitt"
<frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>> Does anyone know if there is a canon reference in
>> Traveller to what can best be described as a Star Wars Light Saber?
>
>Yes. In an Editorial in JTAS, where they explained why they wouldn't do
it.
><grin>
>
>I also remember one in an old White Dwarf or Dragon article.
>
>Frankie
Well, a canon reference, is a canon reference. This would say that canon
has ruled the "Star Wars type Light Saber" as a non-canon item in the
official Traveller universe.
As I am shifting my view of the universe IMTU toward only what is listed
in official canon. It looks like the Light Saber is out.
Thanks for the reference Frankie.
Clifford Linehan - cnl.rubicon@juno.com
http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller
Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 00:02:03 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
> Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:02:14 GMT
> From: Postmark Design Bureau <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
> Subject: Re: SMEG/OFF 20mm Sniper Cannon (Gearhead Alert)
>
> DaveShayne wrote:
>
> > Heavy barrel Length=23cm Weight=.69Kg Price=Cr276 E= 4039joules
>
> Ok, I'll admit to knowing nothing about this subject, but 23cm
> seems to be a bit short for a 20mm sniper rifle barrel.
Bear in mind that the round is in fact a pistol round (albeit of rather
high calibre.) The FFS rules are very precise that this weapon can
have a barrel no longer than 23cm. (Barrel length being determined
by the ammount of propellant behind the round not by the calibre.)
I personally don't know if it makes real world sense (although
considering the fact that none of the rest of this design appears
to make real world sense it seems likely that this doesn't either)
but it conforms to all of the rules of TNE/FFS.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 18:27:23 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
On 2 Mar 2001, at 9:14, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Rupert Boleyn writes:
> >
> >
> > On 1 Mar 2001, at 16:03, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> >
> > > Your average sector is about 450 worlds. Give it 1k per world and that's
> > > 10-20 megabytes for the entire imperium. That's what I call a 'tiny
> > > database'. I don't know what H&E produces, but I doubt it's more than 1k
> > > per world.
> >
> > A friend of mine is an Oracle man. I don't think he thinks in units that
> > small. :)
>
> Heh. Certainly not my experience with Oracle. Anything under a gig is a tiny
> database (1-10 gigs is merely small).
Yep. They had an 'out of memory' error the other day. First he gave it another
4gigs (as far as anyone could tell it shouldn't have been out of memory).
Nothing. Gave it another 10gigs. Nothing. Gave it another 40gigs. Went fine,
and they even got some of it back.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 21:44:53 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: OK, this should now be working..
Penguins!! All around me!!
Beats typing test again. :)
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 19:21:27 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller - The Database (E/R)
On 2 Mar 2001, at 15:59, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
>
> > Okay, lets start with the basics. Identifying entities and relationships
> > (assuming we are going to use a RDBMS, though I think this might suit an
> > OODBMS better).
> Well, OO in that the DB we use needs to support BLOBS for maps and suchlike.
My tutors keep going on about OODBMS as opposed to RDBMS as the
next "thing" in databases. The only difference I can see is that an OO
model can handle M:N relationships without a bridging entity. Me, I don't
understand the real advantage.
> Looks 'bout right. My oly reservation was the System <-> <something>
> I'll have to look, I'm not sure if any of the various world generation
> systems allow naked stars. First In does not, but it's been a while
> since I used any of the others.
How about changing Worlds/GasGiants/PlanetoidBelts into SystemBodies
and making the System <-> SystemBodies 1:M compulsory and then
defining just what sub catergory the SystemBody falls into.
Also, thinking about it, Subsector could be dropped as an entity and turned
into an attribute of System.
So, unless anybody has any strong objections to the model, I'll move on to
determining attributes for the entities.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 01:55:40 -0500
From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Scout Brew logo...
>Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:01:00 -0800
>From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
>Subject: Scout Brew logo...
>
>Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:
>
>http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/
>
>Now hopefully, Loren and Steve won't sue me! :^)
I think it's terriffic. =) The belly-up eight-legged whatever-it-is on the
Scout emblem was a nice touch. ;)
Cheers
- ---
==============================================================
Jonathan McDermott http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@
- ------------------------------------------------------------
"Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."
-Steve Wozniak
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 22:23:29 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Traveller - The Database (E/R)
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote :
> My tutors keep going on about OODBMS as opposed to RDBMS as the
> next "thing" in databases. The only difference I can see is that an OO
> model can handle M:N relationships without a bridging entity. Me, I don't
> understand the real advantage.
The advantage is that you don't have to waste time mapping objects into and
from tables, and it better models reality than a relational database does.
Relational databases have always been about trying to get better performance
from limited hardware, they were a technology designed to get around the
limitations of the technology at the time. They've never been a very good
model for designing software around.
Personally, I always prefered network databases, but like DOS and the IBM PC
relational databases pretty much took over the market for no good reason
other than that IBM chose to implement one, and everyone else copied it.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 14:24:21 +0000
From: Paul Campbell <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
On Thu, Mar 01, 2001 at 01:24:58PM -0000, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> Okay, trying to pull all this programming lark back onto the
> topic for which *this* list exists (ie. Traveller) I'd like to
> make the following proposal:
>
> There are a number of software projects for Traveller (both old
> and new) that requires a database of the Traveller Universe.
> There are drill-down mappers (like Galactic), there are system
> generators (like Heaven&Earth), there are spreadsheets to analyse
> the Imperial budget, and it sounds like there is more than one
> person working on Traveller trading programs.
>
> Each of these programs uses its own proprietary file structures.
> Yet the core data *structure* is logically the same ... sectors,
> subsectors, hexes, UPP/UWP, trade codes, etc.
>
> What I'd like to propose is that future databases be built to a
> common database design, which other programs can call from and
> add to. People would still be free to write their own programs,
> but with a central point for database design changes. So when
> you write a Traveller program it can share data with any other
> Traveller programs you have (without having to reinvent import
> and export routines every time, and store the data redundantly in
> multiple formats).
[ Snip ]
This is exactly what I've been working on (off and on) as part of Tod
Glenn's grandsurvey.com site.
Check out the latest version:
http://www.grandsurvey.com/pcampbell/gs-db-0.0.2.tar.gz
(WinZip *can* cope with this file format)
Here is the README file for it:
GrandSurvey Database (gs-db)
9-January-2001:
The GrandSurvey Database is to be the central repository for the
GrandSurvey Project. This project, gs-db, is currently working to
revise the database structure, before moving on to developing a number
of utilities to interface with it.
Suggestions for Utilities:
* Surveyor - populates the database by implementing the WBH
rules.
* Web Interface - View the database as graphical maps, similar
to the last prototype at
http://www.grandsurvey.com/pcampbell/ (as at 26-11-2000)
* H&E Gateway - Import and Export to Stuart Ferris' Heaven and
Earth program
* XML Gateway - Import and Export to Don McKinney's Traveller
XML DTD, that I heard he was working on
* ? Gateway - Michael Koehne mentioned a Survey script as part
of his Games::Traveller module
If you have any other ideas that you would like to see let us know.
This database structure is currently in an early design stage just
now. I am looking to support worlds generated using the World
Builders Handbook. Although I will be adding a few extra twists to
help model the data more flexibly.
Documentation of the database structures are in the docs/ directory.
A script to create the tables for the database as it stands now is in
create.sql, this script is for MySQL. The star_data.csv file is
used to populate the gs_star_data table, which details characteristics
for different star types.
To recreate create.sql and object_type_data.csv run the following
command from the gs-db root directory:
$ perl/extract_sql_ddl.pl docs/sql/[a-z]* --objects
Additional options '-v' or '-v -v' give some indication of progress,
not that it takes more than a second.
- --
Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24
http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net
jupiter: 2:20pm up 53 days, 4:00, 6 users, load average: 0.41, 0.45, 0.35
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 12:58:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Micro gravity beer (Was: Good American Beer (it exists!))
In mail you write:
> Which makes me wonder, could ale (or wine or hard liquor) be produced in
> micro-gravity? It's easy enough to build old-fashioned wooden barrels
> and the other hardware into space, but would the absence of gravity have
> an effect on the outcome? I know zilch about brewing.
Fermentation in zero-gee has long been discussed, because that's
essentially how a number of anti-biotics are produced.
The lack of gravity eliminates the tendency of the yeast to "settle",
as well as eliminates problems with the liquid stratifying.
You *will* have to "stir" the liquid to keep nutrients evenly
dispersed. And you'll have either filter the hell out of it, or
centrifuge it to get the sediment out.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 13:09:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller - The Database (E/R)
In mail you write:
> On 2 Mar 2001, at 15:59, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
> How about changing Worlds/GasGiants/PlanetoidBelts into SystemBodies
> and making the System <-> SystemBodies 1:M compulsory and then
> defining just what sub catergory the SystemBody falls into.
Keep in mind that while I don't know of any such instance in Traveller,
it should be possible to have a star with no SystemBodies.
Likewise, don't forget that you can have up to *4* stars. The 4 star
version is (as I recall) always a close binary pair orbiting another
close binary pair. The 3 star version can be two stars orbiting a
primary, a pair of stars orbiting each other with their center of mass
orbiting the primary, or a pair of stars orbiting each other with a
third star orbiting their COM.
So "primary/secondary/tertiary" won't cut it.
> Also, thinking about it, Subsector could be dropped as an entity and turned
> into an attribute of System.
Except that things like maps, especially of things like jump routes and
trade routes might be better stored at that level.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 22:50:38 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Wealth
Peter Newman writes:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote
>
>>No law requires them to sell you anything if they don't want to. And if
>>you can't pay them with something they want, they won't want to.
>
>Are you trying to tell me that when you walk into a store with Imperial
>Credits and the shopkeeper refuses to accept them that the Imperial
>government is going to let them get away with it?
The question is moot, because the conditions doesn't exist. There IS trade
between the planets of the Imperium and consequently people CAN buy stuff they
want with Imperial credits.
>That sort of thing was directly responsible for the fall of the Rule of Man
>and the Long Night. Do you honestly think that the Third Imperium is going
>to allow it?
I'm quite sure the Imperium couldn't care less if Eneri Q. Public accepts Crimps
or not. They might get shirty if a sector branch of an Imperial bank refused to
honor a draft.
>>The only way the Imperium can get anything useful from a world is to spend
>>those credits on stuff that can be physically lifted off the planetary
>>surface and moved elsewhere.
>
>The most expensive goods the Imperium uses are probably capital class
>starships. Canon establishes that many types of starships are built at
>many locations.
What's your point? If that isn't an example of the Imperium taking its taxes
out in kind then I don't know what is.
>The way I see it the Imperium demands that people accept Imperial credits.
>When they want something they buy it on location, hire someone to deliver it,
>or transport it themselves in their own (typically military) starships that
>they purchased using Imperial Credits or which they had built by yard crew
>paid in Imperial credits.
In other words, they buy goods and transport them off-world. Just as I said.
>The Imperial credit is a symbol of the idea of the Imperium. When you reject
>the credit you are rejecting the Imperium. Yes, of course, the Imperial credit
>is intrinsically nothing more than pretty extruded plastic with cunning anti
>counterfeiting measures but the common acceptance of the Imperial credit is
>one of the key reasons for the creation of the Imperium in the first place (to
>promote trade, which common currencies do).
And that trade is how the wealth is transferred from planet to planet. The
exchange of Crimps is merely a way to keep score. A tally. Promisory notes.
>>But all that gets them is a promisory note. You can't eat a promisory note,
>>you can't use it to fuel your starships and you can't use it to pay someone
>>on the next planet over _unless_ there is some trade between the two planets.
>
>If the next planet over will not accept your Imperial credits they are saying
>that they do not believe that the Imperium is good for the debt.
And if they can't use those credit to buy stuff on another planet then the
Imperium is not good for the debt. You're arguing in circles. The reason people
accept Crimps is precisely because they know they CAN buy stuff from other
worlds with it. If they couldn't, they wouldn't accept them.
>For a member world to say that is clearly rebellious. There is a very good
>reason why the Imperial navy has weapons of mass destruction and it is not
>the Zhodani.
>Read your MT.
In the interest of keeping this civil I'll refrain from replying to this the
way it so richly deserves.
And Rob Davenport writes:
>On 2 Mar 01, at 21:34, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
>>But all that gets them is a promisory note. You can't eat a promisory note,
>>you can't use it to fuel your starships and you can't use it to pay someone
>>on the next planet over _unless_ there is some trade between the two planets.
>
>Or at least trade between the second planet and still other planets,
>not necessarily the first one in question, yes?
Yes, yes. I was trying to keep it simple.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 13:43:16 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Scout Brew logo...
ROFLMAO!!!!!!! Oh, THAT'S gonna' have to go somewhere! T-shirt'd be nice,
and patches for sure since my Mom's got an embroidery machine now :DD More
as that develops.
And no, SJG shouldn't have a problem with that. It's a derivative, spoof
design.
Private e-mail heading your way Mark.
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Mark F. Cook
> Sent: Friday, March 02, 2001 3:01 PM
> To: Traveller Mail List
> Subject: Scout Brew logo...
>
>
> Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:
>
> http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/
>
> Now hopefully, Loren and Steve won't sue me! :^)
>
> - Mark C.
>
> mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
> 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
> Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 09:22:00 +1100
From: "Jeffrey Malone" <nparker1971@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Not being much of a programmer, I will however weigh into the issue of data
formats. In particular, the issue of stellar coordinate data. Rather than
using Sector:Sub-Sector:Position within Sector format, is there any merit in
using the Ring:Ray format?
As I see it, there are a few (potential) advantages here:
1 - each system has a unique numerical coordinate (useful for measurement of
distances and travel times beyond the sub-sector/sector level).
2 - That sector/subsector names can be assigned on the basis of a range of
Ring:Ray values (say, qualified with an Alliegance code). By contrast, if
the DB is using Sector (SectorName) as the basis of the coordinate system,
then this would seem to 'privilege' one particular Alleigance's cartographic
system over others (no, I am not a post-modernist).
3 - That different Alliegance's cartographic systems do not necessarily
coincide. I know it says (somewhere? the old supplements 8 and 11 come to
mind) that the sector and sub-sector, as units of interstellar cartography,
are fairly widely accepted (which seems to imply that they may be Vilani in
origin). However, it seems to be an unspoken assumption that different
Alliegance's accept the same cartographic (not political) boundaries. This
might make sense for Vilani derived Alleigances, but it doesn't make much
sense for the others. If you employ Ring:Ray as the basis of the coordinate
system, then sector boundaries recognised by different alliegances do not
necessarily have to coincide (even if they do accept sectors and sub-sectors
as the units of measure for interstellar space).
J.M.M.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 22:38:06 +0000
From: Paul Campbell <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
On Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 09:22:00AM +1100, Jeffrey Malone wrote:
> Not being much of a programmer, I will however weigh into the issue of data
> formats. In particular, the issue of stellar coordinate data. Rather than
> using Sector:Sub-Sector:Position within Sector format, is there any merit in
> using the Ring:Ray format?
>
> As I see it, there are a few (potential) advantages here:
>
> 1 - each system has a unique numerical coordinate (useful for measurement of
> distances and travel times beyond the sub-sector/sector level).
>
> 2 - That sector/subsector names can be assigned on the basis of a range of
> Ring:Ray values (say, qualified with an Alliegance code). By contrast, if
> the DB is using Sector (SectorName) as the basis of the coordinate system,
> then this would seem to 'privilege' one particular Alleigance's cartographic
> system over others (no, I am not a post-modernist).
>
> 3 - That different Alliegance's cartographic systems do not necessarily
> coincide. I know it says (somewhere? the old supplements 8 and 11 come to
> mind) that the sector and sub-sector, as units of interstellar cartography,
> are fairly widely accepted (which seems to imply that they may be Vilani in
> origin). However, it seems to be an unspoken assumption that different
> Alliegance's accept the same cartographic (not political) boundaries. This
> might make sense for Vilani derived Alleigances, but it doesn't make much
> sense for the others. If you employ Ring:Ray as the basis of the coordinate
> system, then sector boundaries recognised by different alliegances do not
> necessarily have to coincide (even if they do accept sectors and sub-sectors
> as the units of measure for interstellar space).
>
> J.M.M.
>
Storing this in the database shouldn't prove a problem. Sectors would
have an origination point and possibly a width/height or even angle
value for your non-canon cartographic systems.
- --
Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24
http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net
jupiter: 10:35pm up 53 days, 12:15, 5 users, load average: 0.39, 0.69, 0.51
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 21:46:46 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Wealth (Was: Nobles and the Imperium)
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
>
>> >If people will accept your money for their credits you get what you
want.
>>
>> But if people can't buy something they want for your money, they won't
>> accept it. And if no one is carting goods from your planet to theirs,
they
>> can't buy anything for your money.
>
>More to the point, planets can't mint their own CrI anyway. Unless the
planet
>is selling stuff, it won't have any credits to buy things with.
>
>The net effect is that, directly or indirectly, the Imperium receives _all_
>taxes as material, because the only way to acquire CrI is to get them from
>someone who has them or can mint them, and they're only minted by the
>imperium; thus, in the end CrI represent sales to the Imperium.
>
>Note that in FT at least, some worlds (high population, poor starport) can
>have total trade which is lower than their theoretical tax burden. It's
>anyone's guess just how they pay their taxes.
In services. As said above you don't have to transport services, so perhaps
they pay their taxes by servicing ships belonging to the IN and IISS.
As Information. Which often has value and can be transported by XBoat or
courier.
As promissory notes. In other words they have a deficit.
As goods that leave the planet but are not counted as trade, such as goods
and services sold to the IN. Likewise goods sold to ships as commissary
goods, which would not count as trade, but might still be a substantial
amount of money.
Perhaps they can offset their taxes by contributing land to the Imperium, or
the Emperor in lieu of money. The Emperor can then give said land as fiefs
to Imperial Nobles. Obviously eventually you run out of land, so this is a
short term solution.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3763
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3764
Date: | 3/4/01 5:32:47 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Sunday, March 4 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3764
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
Re: Scout Brew logo...
Re: [TML] Scout Brew logo...
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Fractal hex coordinate system
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: New Traveller software project
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: New Traveller software project
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
RE: Traveller software project
RE: Traveller software project
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 20:43:52 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
OK, Bill. Here's my 2nd pass as a piece of nose-art for your Beowulf.
http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/ship_logo/
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 20:50:53 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Scout Brew logo...
At 09:18 PM 3/2/01 -0800, Doug Berry wrote:
>At 03:01 PM 03/02/01 -0800, you wrote:
> >Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:
> >
> >http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/
>
>Mark, I'm still unable to post to thelist, but you can claim this as a
>keyboard kill on a brand new keyboard.
Doug, I know you have TML access restored. Nevertheless, I'm forwarding
this letter *to* the list so that I get my KBK properly recognized and entered
the the "Dead Keyboard Hall of Fame". :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 20:56:56 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: [TML] Scout Brew logo...
Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com> writes:
> >Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:01:00 -0800
> >From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
> >Subject: Scout Brew logo...
> >
> >Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:
> >
> >http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/
> >
> >Now hopefully, Loren and Steve won't sue me! :^)
>
>I think it's terriffic. =) The belly-up eight-legged whatever-it-is on the
>Scout emblem was a nice touch. ;)
"eight-legged whatever-it-is"?!? My dear boy, that's the scouts own,
beloved PONI from the IISS Communications branch emblem.
Apparently, scout brew affects them the same way it affects scouts! :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 16:06:46 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Jeffrey Malone wrote:
> Not being much of a programmer, I will however weigh into the issue
> of data formats. In particular, the issue of stellar coordinate
> data. Rather than using Sector:Sub-Sector:Position within Sector
> format, is there any merit in using the Ring:Ray format?
What's the Ring:Ray format? Something published? It sounds vaguely
like a polar coordinate system. If so, where is the (0,0) point?
Somewhere allegiance-independent I hope?
Of course, you would have to do some surprisingly messy coordinate
transformations to do anything useful with it, such as determining
distance between two systems. And if the centre is less than a few
hundred parsecs away, your 'sectors' have varying shapes depending on
orientation and distance with respect to that centre.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 16:32:32 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Fractal hex coordinate system
If you really want to make a weird but consistent coordinate system,
here's one. It has spurious advantages: it is consistent in that the
leftmost digits are always more significant than digits to the right,
it comprises a single number instead of a pair of numbers, and it can
be consistently extended to cover arbitrarily large regions simply by
adding more digits to the left.
It is also totally unusable :)
Start with a chosen centre hex. Number it "0". Number the hexes
around it using the digits 1-6. They form a 'hexagon' of 7 hexes.
Now, you can tile 7 such hexagons into a bigger region of 49 hexes.
As before, number the centre one "0" and the ones around it "1" to
"6".
You can specify any given hex in this region by using the first
digit to indicate which 7-hex group it is in, and the second digit to
indicate the hex within that group.
These 49-hex groups tile into groups of 343, and you just add
another digit to specify which 49-hex group you are talking about.
Continue ad nauseum or until your brain explodes trying to picture
what these groups look like :)
It would have to be a rather alien society indeed that used such
coordinates. Obviously you would want to base it on the centre of
mass of the galaxy as point "0" or some such similar arrangement. For
something as small as the Imperium you would probably omit the first
few digits for brevity since they would be constant across the whole
region.
Just my contribution to the Traveller database mapping conventions
discussion :)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 06:48:10 +0000
From: Paul Campbell <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
On Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:06:46PM +1100, Timothy Little wrote:
> Jeffrey Malone wrote:
> > Not being much of a programmer, I will however weigh into the issue
> > of data formats. In particular, the issue of stellar coordinate
> > data. Rather than using Sector:Sub-Sector:Position within Sector
> > format, is there any merit in using the Ring:Ray format?
>
> What's the Ring:Ray format? Something published? It sounds vaguely
> like a polar coordinate system. If so, where is the (0,0) point?
> Somewhere allegiance-independent I hope?
>
> Of course, you would have to do some surprisingly messy coordinate
> transformations to do anything useful with it, such as determining
> distance between two systems. And if the centre is less than a few
> hundred parsecs away, your 'sectors' have varying shapes depending on
> orientation and distance with respect to that centre.
I assumed Jeffrey meant numbering the hex rows and columns within each
sector using the same scale from a universal 0,0 point. The Ring
would be relative to the galactic core and the Ray would be from a
'Greenwich'-like hex column.
It would, I assume, only be used internally by the database and
attendant utilities, which would translate it into the standard hex
locations. Using a system like this also makes it easier to calculate
distances that cross sector borders.
- --
Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24
http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net
jupiter: 6:42am up 53 days, 20:22, 5 users, load average: 0.13, 0.09, 0.03
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 18:53:27 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Paul Campbell wrote:
> I assumed Jeffrey meant numbering the hex rows and columns within each
> sector using the same scale from a universal 0,0 point. The Ring
> would be relative to the galactic core and the Ray would be from a
> 'Greenwich'-like hex column.
Oh, if it's just going to be an internal system there are much more
convenient coordinates. Pick any (0,0) point and use U/V coordinates
for example, where the V-axis is a vertical line of hexes and the
U-axis is a sloping line of hexes.
That way you don't need to do fiddly special-case adjustments based
on the fact that the X/Y hex grid has "wiggly" lines. It also allows
you to deal with much more manageable numbers, like +-100 in X/U
instead of about 9900 to 10100 in 'ring' and similarly large numbers
in 'ray'.
As described, it wouldn't really be a polar coordinate system of
course; just a wiggly hex-grid approximation to a cartesian
approximation to a polar coordinate system. I'd rather use a
coordinate system that actually makes use of the symmetries of the
underlying hex grid.
For example, in the existing system (or any extension thereof), the
hex with (X+1,Y) coordinates is sometimes above, sometimes below, the
hex with coordinates (X,Y). Worse still, sometimes (X+1,Y+1) is
adjacent to (X,Y) and sometimes disconnected. I'm sure you can see
the problems associated with this.
The U,V coordinates don't have this problem.
One question: in Traveller maps, is the galactic center exactly in
line with the hex grid? If so, *which* line? Capital?
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:14:32 +1100
From: "Jeffrey Malone" <nparker1971@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
As per the library data entry in Supplement 8:
The ring passing through Reference/Capital is the 10,000th ring (out from
the galatic core). The ray passing through Reference is the first ray.
This increases trailing, and decreases spinward. Hence, the coordinate for
Regina in the Spinward Marches is Ring 9930/Ray 62773 (circumfrance of the
ring through Reference is 62,832 parsecs, so subtract from this when moving
spinward).
Whilst this is a polar system, in practice for Known Space it approximates a
cartesian system. I did the calcs on the distortion on the furthest
boundaries of Known Space of the difference between polar and cartesian
coordinates. By memory (I did this back in 1983 when I first got Sup 8 as a
LBB) the amount of distortion by the time you get to Far Frontiers (taking
the baseline ray from Reference) was on the order of 0.4%.
J.M.M.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 6:53 PM
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
> Paul Campbell wrote:
> > I assumed Jeffrey meant numbering the hex rows and columns within each
> > sector using the same scale from a universal 0,0 point. The Ring
> > would be relative to the galactic core and the Ray would be from a
> > 'Greenwich'-like hex column.
>
> Oh, if it's just going to be an internal system there are much more
> convenient coordinates. Pick any (0,0) point and use U/V coordinates
> for example, where the V-axis is a vertical line of hexes and the
> U-axis is a sloping line of hexes.
>
> That way you don't need to do fiddly special-case adjustments based
> on the fact that the X/Y hex grid has "wiggly" lines. It also allows
> you to deal with much more manageable numbers, like +-100 in X/U
> instead of about 9900 to 10100 in 'ring' and similarly large numbers
> in 'ray'.
>
> As described, it wouldn't really be a polar coordinate system of
> course; just a wiggly hex-grid approximation to a cartesian
> approximation to a polar coordinate system. I'd rather use a
> coordinate system that actually makes use of the symmetries of the
> underlying hex grid.
>
> For example, in the existing system (or any extension thereof), the
> hex with (X+1,Y) coordinates is sometimes above, sometimes below, the
> hex with coordinates (X,Y). Worse still, sometimes (X+1,Y+1) is
> adjacent to (X,Y) and sometimes disconnected. I'm sure you can see
> the problems associated with this.
> The U,V coordinates don't have this problem.
>
>
> One question: in Traveller maps, is the galactic center exactly in
> line with the hex grid? If so, *which* line? Capital?
>
>
> --
> IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so-
kk--
> Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 03:37:09 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
At 04:06 PM 3/4/2001 +1100, Tim Little wrote:
>Jeffrey Malone wrote:
> > Not being much of a programmer, I will however weigh into the issue
> > of data formats. In particular, the issue of stellar coordinate
> > data. Rather than using Sector:Sub-Sector:Position within Sector
> > format, is there any merit in using the Ring:Ray format?
>
> What's the Ring:Ray format? Something published? It sounds vaguely
>like a polar coordinate system. If so, where is the (0,0) point?
>Somewhere allegiance-independent I hope?
>
> Of course, you would have to do some surprisingly messy coordinate
>transformations to do anything useful with it, such as determining
>distance between two systems. And if the centre is less than a few
>hundred parsecs away, your 'sectors' have varying shapes depending on
>orientation and distance with respect to that centre.
The system he describes was originally published in Supplement 8: Library
Data A-M under Astrography. Supposedly Reference (Core 0140) lies on the
10,000th ring from the core of the galaxy, and is the 0 point for the
ray. This ring is 62,833 parsecs in circumference, so measuring spinward
uses a subtraction from 62,833 and trailing adds to 0. Using this system,
here are a few examples of stellar coordinates:
System (Sector coord) Ring/Ray
Reverence (Core 0140) 10000/0
Regina (Spinward Marches 1910) 9930/62723
Vland (Vland 1717) 9937/62817
Capital (Core 2118) 9978/20
Terra (Solomani Rim 10108/17
Jimmy Simpson
nimrodd@mail.com
"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
-Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:58:32 +1030
From: htp <htp@metropolis.net.au>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
On 20010228.1344, "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> wrote:
>Computing *isn't* some sort of modern religion who's secrets
>should only be revealed to the privileged few who can prove
>themselves worthy! Anything (including VB) that opens up
>computing to the masses is a *good* thing.
Would you consider _anything_ that opens up _brain-surgery_ to the masses
to be a *good* thing also?
I think not. No _sane_ person would.
Licensing is an instrument designed by society to minimise the damage
that individuals can do. Doctors are licensed, drivers are licensed,
teachers are licensed... If _anyone_ was allowed to practice medicine,
public health would be in danger. If _anyone_ was allowed to drive cars,
the roads would be a death-trap. If _anyone_ was allowed to teach, our
civilisation's future would be doomed.
The new programmers of today will grow up to be, surprise, surprise, the
"professional" programmers of tomorrow. If the environment in which
their learning takes place encourages short-cuts, fragile code, the use
of proprietary software, and exclusive programming techniques which
prohibit portability of code, then the industry is completely screwed.
VB is making that miserable future a reality.
>Yes, there will be a
>lot more third-rate programs flying about, but many more people
>than now will be empowered ...
Empowered to write horrible, non-portable code? How can that be good for
society??? Those that actually use VB to write _good_ code would have
almost certainly written that code (in the absence of VB) using a more
mature language anyway.
Fine, if you're under 15, use VB. But if you've survived puberty, then
you should really lock away your VB stuff in your closet with your
Britney Spears posters and join the grown-ups.
>Speaking as a professional
>programmer I think your ivory tower viewpoint does our profession
>a dis-service.
I have high standards and care about the future of information
technology. If that position places me in an ivory tower, then so be it.
The view is superb, and the door is always open...
Henry.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 10:34:43 +0000
From: Paul Campbell <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
On Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 06:53:27PM +1100, Timothy Little wrote:
> Paul Campbell wrote:
> > I assumed Jeffrey meant numbering the hex rows and columns within each
> > sector using the same scale from a universal 0,0 point. The Ring
> > would be relative to the galactic core and the Ray would be from a
> > 'Greenwich'-like hex column.
>
> Oh, if it's just going to be an internal system there are much more
> convenient coordinates. Pick any (0,0) point and use U/V coordinates
> for example, where the V-axis is a vertical line of hexes and the
> U-axis is a sloping line of hexes.
>
> That way you don't need to do fiddly special-case adjustments based
> on the fact that the X/Y hex grid has "wiggly" lines. It also allows
> you to deal with much more manageable numbers, like +-100 in X/U
> instead of about 9900 to 10100 in 'ring' and similarly large numbers
> in 'ray'.
Never thought about doing it this way. Plotting from this system onto
a standard hex grid should be easy enough.
> As described, it wouldn't really be a polar coordinate system of
> course; just a wiggly hex-grid approximation to a cartesian
> approximation to a polar coordinate system. I'd rather use a
> coordinate system that actually makes use of the symmetries of the
> underlying hex grid.
>
> For example, in the existing system (or any extension thereof), the
> hex with (X+1,Y) coordinates is sometimes above, sometimes below, the
> hex with coordinates (X,Y). Worse still, sometimes (X+1,Y+1) is
> adjacent to (X,Y) and sometimes disconnected. I'm sure you can see
> the problems associated with this.
> The U,V coordinates don't have this problem.
Which would also make 'shortest-path' routines, as such-like, much
easier I suspect.
- --
Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24
http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net
jupiter: 10:31am up 54 days, 11 min, 4 users, load average: 0.06, 0.11, 0.09
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:22:23 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Paul Campbell wrote:
> Never thought about doing it this way. Plotting from this system onto
> a standard hex grid should be easy enough.
Yes, converting is relatively easy. X = U, Y = V + U/2 (round up or
down depending on the phase of "wiggle" in the X/Y coordinate system)
> > The U,V coordinates don't have this problem.
>
> Which would also make 'shortest-path' routines, as such-like, much
> easier I suspect.
Yes, so much so that in my own programs, I always convert X/Y
coordinates to U/V coordinates to generate such paths. Efficient path
finding algorithms are hard enough to implement nicely without having
odd/even tests every second line.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 21:52:07 +1030
From: htp <htp@metropolis.net.au>
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
On 20010228.1759, "Stuart Ferris" <stuart.ferris@virgin.net> wrote:
>It seems to be an industry trend to slag off VB and if your a professional
>programmer you've simply got to dislke VB.
Ever spent a nano-second trying to work out _why_ professional
programmers dislike VB? Could it be (shock, horror!) that there are
_very_good_reasons_ why?
>To be honest the thoughtful and coherent way you put forward your argument
>isn't going to change my opinion.
I don't think any thoughtful and coherent argument could change your
opinion. You seem to have errected a Wall of Force, through which logic
cannot penetrate.
>Any programming language is likely to have good programmers and bad
>programmers. I don't mean to be insulting,
Actually, you do. Perhaps your grasp of English is (also) somewhat
tenuous?
>but if you program like you form
>the basis of an argument then I take it you fall into the latter catagory.
I classify myself as an "average" programmer, who strives to only make
any given mistake once, and who is open to suggestions and constructive
criticism from those that show superior aptitude.
A bit over a decade ago, I wrote my first _really_big_ program, and I
though it was great, and many people heaped praise on my efforts. I
developed a massive ego, arrogance, and became exceptionally sensitive to
criticism - especially that which challenged my fundamental beliefs and
assumptions. Then someone wrote a better program. His code was cleaner,
it ran faster, it was extensible, and his choice of language was
obviously more appropriate for the task. In fact, it was better than
mine at just about every level. Even I could see that. The spotlight
faded.
Fame is fleeting and intoxicating - enjoy it while you can, but don't get
drunk.
Henry.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:09:27 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
No - don't be silly, folks. You run the query on the RDBMS through a
web-app, drop the results into XML tagged format and display the
results using an XML parser running SAX rather than DOM. Big speed
improvements and huge cross platform advantage.
- --
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Trevor, Peter
> Sent: 01 March 2001 15:58
> To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
>
>
> Dave McKenna wrote:
> > > Er, so if my 'database' has grown to include all
> canonical
> > > sectors of the 3I and describes them down to the level
> generated
> > > by Heaven&Earth (including planetary maps), isn't that going to
> > > (a) take a long time to load into memory, and
> > > (b) require an awful lot of memory?
> >
> > a) Yes
> > b) Yes
> >
> > Especially when you consider that, as a general rule of thumb,
> > you can mulitply the size of any given data structure by about
> > 10 when you encapsulate it in XML. However, you don't try to
> > wrap an entire database into a single XML packet. Rather,
> > distinct elements or entities can be encapsulated... like, for
> > instance, a single system or world (depending on how the schema
> > is put together).
>
> And so if you then have an application that wants to identify all
> known non-aligned feudal technocracies with TL15 class A
> starports and a military base elsewhere in the same system you
> have to scan all the XML packets? Sounds disk intensive.
>
> Regards PLST
> (aka Stalin)
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:14:58 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
I've just realised how many replies I've posted to this thread! Sorry
people, but I am trying to address the points as they come up. For
this one, you would be better aiming for "general purpose" - which
means GPL cross-platform open source software rather than ODBC. I am
now convinced that mySQL is the best option (sorry for mentioning
InterBase now - its just that I happen to like it). I never did an
astrogation data Schema, so can we work on the design and get an
agreed set of data? Perhaps if we work in datamats that may help and
let others develop system-specific versions later?
- --
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Trevor, Peter
> Sent: 01 March 2001 17:47
> To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> Subject: RE: Traveller software project (new thread)
>
>
> Rob Myers wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 1, 2001, at 04:40 PM, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> > > If we set the scope to be just astrogation data (for
> now) then
> > > the high level definition has *already* been given to
> us in the
> > > published rules.
> >
> > You're absolutely right. :-)
> >
> > So some sort of export-to/-from UPP functionality library
> > would be useful, then?
>
> What I originally had in mind (before this explosion of interest
> in XML) was to use a free/shareware RDBMS (preferably one that
> was ODBC compliant) as a common data container with just 1
> program equiped with various import/export filters for WBS,
> Genie/Sunbeam, SAR, etc. Then all other programs could use this
> common data container without a need for them to have any import/
> export functions of their own at all. Further, I was going to
> put forward my own drill-down mapper program as the database
> adminstration module ... but making the database design (at
> least) "open source" so that it could support other people's
> programs, too.
>
> Now I have to get my head around the design and performance
> issues of using XML instead of an RDBMS and see what's what.
>
> Regards PLST
> (aka Stalin)
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:06:54 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project
There is a Mac version of mySQL - so change my previous advice to "use
mySQL instead of InterBase". By the way, does whoever is dealing with
data design want to email me the design so far and I'll build a Schema
for it. I'll also provide the DTDs and Schemas I already have.
- --
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Bruce Johnson
> Sent: 02 March 2001 18:12
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Traveller software project
>
>
> Trevor, Peter wrote:
>
> > Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> >
> >>> Is there a Windows SQL that is free either in the free beer
> >>> sense (hey, this links the beer thread to the programming
> >>> thread) or as in free speech sense ?
> >>
> >> InterBase. Free and Open Source.
> >
> >
> > Thanks. I had originally wanted a free SQL-compliant RDBMS (ODBC
> > for Windows) but had missed this one. From the blurb on the web
> > it sounds ideal (support for BLOBs, too, so planetary maps and
> > other graphics can be stored). I've downloaded it and will play
> > with it this weekend. Ideally, a common Traveller database could
> > be distributed as SQL scripts and loaded into the SQL-compliant
> > RDBMS of your choice. I notice that InterBase has a Linux
> > version (which would make porting "Traveller Universe" compliant
> > software easier) ... not sure what to do about the Mac brigade.
>
> Alas, not a heckuva lot until MacOSX comes out. Then we can
> port all these nice Open Source ones.
>
> The Mac OS has been seriously deficient with respect to
> database apps
> for a long long time, (pretty much only FileMaker and Acius
> 4D) despite
> having some absolutely brilliant early efforts (such as the
> recently
> revived Helix, a completely graphical, object oriented database/RAD
> created in 1984 or so. see: http://www.helixtech.com/ I
> remember the
> first review of it, in Byte magazine where they described
> two librarians
> who purchased a Mac, got Helix, and proceeded to write a
> new version of
> their check-out/in book tracking software. From scratch. Visual
> computing environments are not all VB, and VB hardly represents the
> state of the art.)
>
> This _will_ change with the advent of Mac OSX.
>
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:04:51 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project
Peter, did you make sure to get the patched version of InterBase? The
one covering the security hole announced a couple of weeks ago? If
not, swap to mySQL for now (I'm advising my clients to do the same,
BTW) and switch back later when the patch is in.
- --
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Trevor, Peter
> Sent: 02 March 2001 12:57
> To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> Subject: RE: Traveller software project
>
>
> Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> > > Is there a Windows SQL that is free either in the free beer
> > > sense (hey, this links the beer thread to the programming
> > > thread) or as in free speech sense ?
> >
> > InterBase. Free and Open Source.
>
> Thanks. I had originally wanted a free SQL-compliant RDBMS (ODBC
> for Windows) but had missed this one. From the blurb on the web
> it sounds ideal (support for BLOBs, too, so planetary maps and
> other graphics can be stored). I've downloaded it and will play
> with it this weekend. Ideally, a common Traveller database could
> be distributed as SQL scripts and loaded into the SQL-compliant
> RDBMS of your choice. I notice that InterBase has a Linux
> version (which would make porting "Traveller Universe" compliant
> software easier) ... not sure what to do about the Mac brigade.
>
> As for the XML data storage idea ... its outside my range of
> current knowledge at present and I am concerned about performance
> issues. However, using XML as a common means of data transfer to
> non TU-compliant software sounds fine. Perhaps once the database
> table design becomes reasonably stable one of the XML experts
> here can start converting it into XML and I can build an "export
> in XML" function for the data.
>
> Anyway, I'll report back next week on InterBase.
>
>
>
> Regards PLST
> (aka Stalin)
>
>
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3764
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3765
Date: | 3/4/01 12:13:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Sunday, March 4 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3765
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Central Software Repository
Astrogation design
OT News: Starlight 'Reveals Billions Of Earths'
Hot Fusion in a Can
RE: Hot Fusion in a Can
Fear of commitment
Re: Astrogation design
Re: Scout Brew logo...
Re: Traveller - The Database (E/R)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3764
License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Sapiens
Re: TravellerBrews LIC
Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it? IYTU?
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Astrogation Data
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 12:59:59 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Central Software Repository
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Andrew
> Moffatt-Vallance
> Sent: 02 March 2001 22:25
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Central Software Repository
>
>
> The talk about a standardised Traveller Database and XML
> format got me
> thinking (dangerous thing that). How about we share
> components. Like,
> if/when we get a standardised Traveller UWP database agreed
> on, we write
> standard components to produce the SQL and XML in a variety of
> languages that can just be dropped into projects.
>
That was the basic idea when I started the Traveller XML work (which I
still fiddle with now and then - it has not entirely died off <g>).
One thing though - XML is XML, so we only need one rather than "a
variety of languages".
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 13:27:31 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Astrogation design
We have several issues in astrogation design - this is a quick try to
pin them down so we can get on with data design.
1. Galaxy mapping. TTI use named sectors - these should be the core
unit, agreed? But how do we identify and set the co-ordinates for
sectors (presumably based on Core as sector 0 or sector 1)?
2. Sectors contain subsectors. Much easier to map.
3. Subsectors contain systems. Again a doddle for mapping.
4. Systems contain stars, planets, asteroids and other bodies. What
needs to be identified and how do we map the location?
5. Each planet needs to be mapped - is that going too far at this
stage (i think so)?
So the basic design would be:
- -->Sector: ID; Location; Name; Other details
-->Subsector: ID; Location; Name; Other details (may be several)
-->System: ID; Location; Name; Other details (may be
several)
-->Star: ID; Location; Name; Other details (may be
several)
-->Planet: ID; Location; Name; Other details (may be
several)
an alternative within the system could be...
-->Body: ID; Location; Type; Name; Other details
Obviously, we would need to know the details for each type of item -
and importantly a way of identifying different data at different times
for the system so that _one_ set of data can contain the
canon/historical changes in the systems over the span of the Third
Imperium.
- --
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 09:10:22 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: OT News: Starlight 'Reveals Billions Of Earths'
Saw this on another mailing list, thought it might be interesting
to Travellers. The original article is at the link at the bottom.
QUOTED TEXT BEGINS:
"American Association: Starlight 'Reveals Billions Of Earths'"
by David Derbyshire, Science Correspondent, in San Francisco
Wednesday, 21 February 2001
The Galaxy is teeming with billions of Earth-like planets, some capable
of supporting life, according to a study.
An analysis of light from hundreds of nearby stars suggests that at
least half contain iron left after collisions with asteroids. And the
astronomers behind the study believe that where there are asteroids with
unstable orbits, there are rocky planets like Mars, Venus, and Earth.
Only a few years ago, astronomers were unable to say whether planetary
systems like our solar system were rare or common. But studies of the
"wobble" of stars, caused by the gravitational tugs of large planets,
has provided evidence of 55 giant planets outside the solar system.
Researchers also believe that they have seen such a giant planet passing
in front of a star, reducing its brightness temporarily. The search for
iron that might have been devoured by stars in collisions with
metal-rich asteroids offers a third technique for spotting possible
solar systems.
Dr. Norman Murray, of the University of Toronto, examined the light
signature from 466 Sun-like stars and another twenty that were entering
old age within 325 light years of the Sun. "What I found is evidence
that there is terrestrial type material orbiting most of the stars in
the solar neighbourhood," he told the American Association for the
Advancement of Science meeting in San Francisco.
"The implication, if this result holds up, is that there are Earth-like
bodies in orbit around most of the stars in the galaxy."
Because stars naturally contain iron, just looking for evidence of the
metal is not enough to prove the existence of rocky asteroids. Instead,
he looked for clues that the iron had been added to the stars long after
they were formed.
A small star will devour iron deposited on its surface, mixing it in
thoroughly with stellar gas. But the largest stars have more stable
outer layers and will retain higher levels of accreted iron away from
their interiors. Dr. Murray found that iron concentrations jumped when
stars reached a certain size, suggesting that their iron could have been
deposited by rocky asteroids. Other means of adding iron to stars were
unlikely or impossible.
He also found that iron levels in the stars known to have orbiting
planets were much higher than average. If rocky material was orbiting
stars, then over time it would clump together to form rocky planets.
And if asteroids were flying into the suns, it is likely that the
gravitational pull of planets was sending them into their chaotic
orbits.
Dr. Murray, who is keen to repeat the study, said: "If there are
terrestrial bodies around these stars, then at least the probability
that there is life that is similar to what we consider to be life has to
be more likely.
"If there weren't any terrestrial planets, there wouldn't be
terrestrial-based life. So it is one more indication that life might be
common in the galaxy, but we don't know that."
© Copyright of Telegraph Group Limited 2000.
QUOTED TEXT ENDS.
Yet. We don't know that...yet.
----------
The original link to the article (this will probably wrap - sorry):
http://www.telegraph.co.uk:80/et?ac=004400023112039&rtmo=0xisKsGq&atmo=rrrr
rrrq&pg=/et/01/2/21/waa21.html
- --
Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net
Millihelen: amount of beauty required to launch one ship.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 09:10:35 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Hot Fusion in a Can
The March 2001 Discover magazine has a short article
(p.12) entitled "Hot Fusion in a Can":
"Richard Siemen, a physicist at Los Alamos National Laboratory thinks
he's found a way to harness the nuclear fusion reactions that power
the sun -- and do it with a device not much bigger than a beer can."
[Can you see why I had to post this?]
"The long-standing obstacle to fusion power is that atomic nuclei
strongly repel one another, and it takes some heavy-handed technology
to bring them together. So far, after spending decades and billions
of dollars on warehouse-sized reactors, researchers have yet to
extract enough energy to power a flashlight. Siemen hopes to succeed
where other failed byinjectingheated and magnetized hydrogen into a
10-inch long, 3.5 inch-wide cylinder and then shooting a 10-million
amp current into the can, which collapses and crushes its contents.
Under those conditions, Siemen theorizes, the hydrogen should fuse,
producing helium and a flood of high-speed neutrons whose energy can
be converted to electricity. So far, he has imploded a can but has
not achieved nuclear burning. 'Within 20 years, we could have a
demonstration unit that would cost less than a billion dollars,' he
says. In the fusion world, that would qualify as a real breakthrough.
- -- Kathy A. Svitil"
There's a diagram of the Linear Implosion System included.
I found it online at:
http://www.discover.com/mar_01/breakfusion.html
ObTrav: Mr. Fusion, anyone?
Rob D.
- --
Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Canis meus id comedit. -- My dog ate it.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:21:54 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Hot Fusion in a Can
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rob Davenport [mailto:rgd@ohio.voyager.net]
> Sent: 04 March 2001 14:11
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Hot Fusion in a Can
>
>
> The March 2001 Discover magazine has a short article
> (p.12) entitled "Hot Fusion in a Can":
>
> "Richard Siemen, a physicist at Los Alamos National Laboratory thinks
> he's found a way to harness the nuclear fusion reactions that power
> the sun -- and do it with a device not much bigger than a beer can."
> [Can you see why I had to post this?]
Mmmm, fusion <drool>
(_8(|)
Seriously, great article.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:49:32 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: Fear of commitment
Going off-list for another week...holiday this time. See y'all soon
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:29:12 +0000
From: Paul Campbell <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: Astrogation design
On Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:27:31PM -0000, Mark Preston wrote:
> We have several issues in astrogation design - this is a quick try to
> pin them down so we can get on with data design.
>
> 1. Galaxy mapping. TTI use named sectors - these should be the core
> unit, agreed? But how do we identify and set the co-ordinates for
> sectors (presumably based on Core as sector 0 or sector 1)?
> 2. Sectors contain subsectors. Much easier to map.
> 3. Subsectors contain systems. Again a doddle for mapping.
> 4. Systems contain stars, planets, asteroids and other bodies. What
> needs to be identified and how do we map the location?
The design I have been working on has a System containing a Star,
which in turn contains Orbits. These Orbits contain other Stars,
Planets, Gas Giants, etc. We could make an Orbit object as complex as
we like to include things like Pluto. At the moment, it only has a
diameter.
> 5. Each planet needs to be mapped - is that going too far at this
> stage (i think so)?
I hadn't gone this far. Although I did split Population into a
seperate object from Planet, to deal with Balkanized worlds and
populated High Ports, etc.
>
> So the basic design would be:
>
> -->Sector: ID; Location; Name; Other details
> -->Subsector: ID; Location; Name; Other details (may be several)
> -->System: ID; Location; Name; Other details (may be
> several)
> -->Star: ID; Location; Name; Other details (may be
> several)
> -->Planet: ID; Location; Name; Other details (may be
> several)
> an alternative within the system could be...
> -->Body: ID; Location; Type; Name; Other details
>
> Obviously, we would need to know the details for each type of item -
> and importantly a way of identifying different data at different times
> for the system so that _one_ set of data can contain the
> canon/historical changes in the systems over the span of the Third
> Imperium.
The root objects in my design were to be Universe objects, allowing
multiple meilieus to be stored in the same DB. Similar to Galactic's
ability.
- --
Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24
http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net
jupiter: 3:23pm up 54 days, 5:03, 6 users, load average: 0.04, 0.04, 0.00
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 17:01:31 GMT
From: "John G. Wood" <elvwood@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Scout Brew logo...
"Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org> wrote:
> Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:
>
> http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/
Perfect! I just wish the other people in my house would understand why I
find it so funny - how many obscure references can you pack into a simple
image?
John
http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 17:01:39 GMT
From: "John G. Wood" <elvwood@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller - The Database (E/R)
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:
> On 2 Mar 2001, at 15:59, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > Looks 'bout right. My oly reservation was the System <-> <something>
> > I'll have to look, I'm not sure if any of the various world generation
> > systems allow naked stars. First In does not, but it's been a while
> > since I used any of the others.
>
> How about changing Worlds/GasGiants/PlanetoidBelts into SystemBodies
> and making the System <-> SystemBodies 1:M compulsory and then
> defining just what sub catergory the SystemBody falls into.
I don't know if this helps (not having worked with databases), but when I was
writing system generation software I had a "System Body" type which could be of
four subtypes: Star, Gas giant, Terrestrial world, Belt. Each of these (except
Belt) could have children, so the primary Star might have another star (the
secondary) as a child, which might have a Gas giant in the third orbit, which
might have three Terrestrial worlds (moons) and a Belt (ring). I just associated
the primary Star with the System and it simply formed a tree from there.
I also separated out habitation-related info (port, pop, gov, law, tech) from
body info, so each body might or might not have some, because it simplified
things. It might not in a database, but it's worth considering.
> Also, thinking about it, Subsector could be dropped as an entity and turned
> into an attribute of System.
You don't even need that: you can calculate the System's subsector from the hex
position. You just need 16 subsector names associated with the Sector.
> So, unless anybody has any strong objections to the model, I'll move on to
> determining attributes for the entities.
Here are a few ideas. I don't include things that can be calculated directly
(like orbital period), but do include links in all directions in the tree of
orbits for convenience.
System:
sector *
hex location
allegiance
TAS zone
primary star *
mainworld *, # gas giants, # planetoid belts if desired for ease
Any System body:
subtype
name
notes
tree info:
parent body *
next inwards body *
next outwards body *
innermost satellite body *
orbital info:
radius
eccentricity
inclination
ascension
periastron
Star:
class
type
subtype
size
mass
luminosity
bode constant
bode multiplier
Belt:
predominant body diameter
maximum body diameter
nickel-iron zone %
carbonaceous zone %
width
Planet (Gas giant or Terrestrial):
diameter
density
tilt
Terrestrial:
atmosphere:
pressure
composition
hydrographics:
%
composition
HTH,
John
http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 12:37:37 -0500
From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3764
>Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 20:56:56 -0800
>From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Scout Brew logo...
>"eight-legged whatever-it-is"?!? My dear boy, that's the scouts own,
>beloved PONI from the IISS Communications branch emblem.
Until you told me that, I had no idea what the thing was called. =) I only
knew it had something to do with the Scouts. So THAT'S a poni....
Thanks for the information! =)
- ---
==============================================================
Jonathan McDermott http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@
- ------------------------------------------------------------
"Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."
-Steve Wozniak
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 10:25:17 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
htp wrote:
> On 20010228.1344, "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> wrote:
>
> >Computing *isn't* some sort of modern religion who's secrets
> >should only be revealed to the privileged few who can prove
> >themselves worthy! Anything (including VB) that opens up
> >computing to the masses is a *good* thing.
>
> Would you consider _anything_ that opens up _brain-surgery_ to the masses
> to be a *good* thing also?
>
> I think not. No _sane_ person would.
>
> Licensing is an instrument designed by society to minimise the damage
> that individuals can do.
While licensing of programmers might be a good thing for a few
life-critical sorts of applications -- air traffic control, computer
assisted brain surgery, nuclear power plants -- I don't see what
harm can be done by writing buggy programs in the privacy of one's
own home.
> If _anyone_ was allowed to teach, our civilisation's future
> would be doomed.
I don't know if you're writing from the US or not, but despite
licensing, the fact that we're paying unlicensed programmers three
times what we pay our licensed teachers is dooming our future anyway.
> The new programmers of today will grow up to be, surprise, surprise, the
> "professional" programmers of tomorrow. If the environment in which
> their learning takes place encourages short-cuts, fragile code, the use
> of proprietary software, and exclusive programming techniques which
> prohibit portability of code, then the industry is completely screwed.
I assure you, the industry is completely screwed. Outside of a few
organizations. Marketing-driven release cycles and "ship it now, fix
it later" are encouraging all the bad stuff you mention there. I
fear that licensing programmers won't help that.
> VB is making that miserable future a reality.
It really seems as if you're basing your opinions on VB primarily on
your memories of classic BASIC. They're very different animals. And
you can write bad code in any language; I've spent a sizable portion
of the last ten years inheriting programs which were "90% done" by
people who would never, no matter what, be able to get that last 10%.
Most of these were in C and C++.
> >Yes, there will be a
> >lot more third-rate programs flying about, but many more people
> >than now will be empowered ...
>
> Empowered to write horrible, non-portable code? How can that be good for
> society???
How about empowered to write a program that fills a need?
> Fine, if you're under 15, use VB. But if you've survived puberty, then
> you should really lock away your VB stuff in your closet with your
> Britney Spears posters and join the grown-ups.
IMO, this is really out of line and unnecessary. When we're this
far off-topic, it pays to be civil.
Secondly, if you think VB is so evil, and care so much about the
future of programming, "VB is for children" is an illogical
attitude.
> I have high standards and care about the future of information
> technology. If that position places me in an ivory tower, then so be it.
> The view is superb, and the door is always open...
...to those who can afford the licensing fee?
The computer industry, today, is moving too fast for licensing to be
at all sensible. What languages are going to be important in ten
years? What courses could I have taken in college in 1988 that would
have best prepared me to do web development work today?[1]
I'd rather hire a self-taught kid who can show me a huge program he
wrote in VB for some nefarious purpose of his own than someone with
a degree and an MSCE who can't learn a thing outside of school and
who got into the industry because he heard you could make a lot of
money.
- -Russell B
[1] A friend was telling me about a situation where she wanted to
hire a particular person for a position, but by corporate protocol
was required to publically advertise for applicants. She put in
the requirements that candidates needed 6 years of web development
experience. This was in 1997. Strangely, no qualified applicants
appeared.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 11:43:21 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Sapiens
Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H.Sapiens?
Jeffrey Yin
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 11:49:30 -0800
From: Cheryl <cheryl@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: TravellerBrews LIC
on 3/1/01 3:09 AM, Jeffrey Malone at nparker1971@ozemail.com.au wrote:
> Brewed through a sheep? Sounds more like NZ beer to me (which is not to
> defend many Oz beers...we export the crap so that we won't have to drink it
> here...)
>
> One wonders then what beer would taste like if it were brewed through a
> penguin...
>
Well that's obvious to anyone who has ever been to the penguin exhibit at
the zoo. That would be fish flavored, of course.
- -Cheryl Glenn
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 14:56:10 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how pervasive is it? IYTU?
On 2 Mar 01, at 14:04, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> I wish I could stop thinking of yogurt.
:)
> On Fri, 2 Mar 2001, Rob Davenport wrote:
> That's true, although most of the places US culture shows up in outside
> the US aren't actually part of the US. Chinese culture is also pretty
> pervasive-- you can find Chinatowns in most large cities.
I guess I agree Charles in that there is a "standard culture" at
least as portrayed in CT canon, and it's a lot like a large country,
with local variations and pockets of the unusual.
The obvious comparison (especially for me) is the U.S. But
remembering the list's international membership made me wonder - what
would some other interesting examples be? The U.K. of the 19th
century comes to mind (yep, I'm still reading those Napoleonic naval
fiction novel by O'Brian and Forester). They controlled a lot of
territory but the culture was (I believe) limited to the upper
classes and the local populations retained much of their own culture.
(cf. early Second Imperium).
Or compare to India - hundreds of local cultures, languages,
religions, sometimes compatible/friendly, sometimes not, all under
one government. China may be similar, but I'm not as familiar with
it.
> I thought the K'Kree were the vegan empire??
:P
> > Yes, Cleveland has it's cultural areas, some more commonly known,
> > others only by where various groups live in this decade (and a lot move
> > around - out to the suburbs to be specific). Sure there'd be areas for
> > more common cultural/religious groups. Hmm - could the be a "Zho-
> > town"/"Little Zhodane" on Regina?
>
> What's funny about such places is the way they tend to shift. Chinatown
> in SF used to be Cantonese-speaking, today all the Cantonese speakers live
> in the Sunset/Richmond area and Chinatown is Mandarin-speaking much more
> than it used to be. There is a heavy Korean presence in Japantown, and
> many of the Japanese have moved into the Tenderloin.
Interesting - would there be populations that move from planet to
planet, looking for a better opportunity while trying to retain their
cultural heritage, facing possibly harsh treatment from locals?
(Well, I'm sure there could be - any examples in canon?)
- --
Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.
I'm not interested in your dopey religious cult.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:10:03 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
On 2 Mar 01, at 16:35, Peter Newman wrote:
> I'm sure that the mass market Imperial beers would be dehydrated
> at the factory and then reconcentrated with water at the factory.
> They'd probably taste like it too.
With the cost of transportation being so much, if local ingredients
(or materials for things other than beer) can be found/made, wouldn't
it be more likely to have franchises that distribute the Secret
Formulae around? At least as the scale gets beyond a sector or so.
I've envisioned (or read and forget where) that plans, formulae and
research data, all things carried more economically via x-boat or
other couriers would be used for disseminating scientific, financial,
and manufacturing data. LSP sells the plans for it's products to
affiliated manufacturers on various worlds. Quality control
inspectors would be necessary -- now there's a job for PCs - quality
control inspectors for Scout Beer? :)
- --
Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam
elenganter concinnatur!
Those green pants go so well with that pink shirt and the plaid jacket!
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 20:01:56 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Astrogation Data
The first cut of an XML format for sector astrogation follows. I've
just shown the XML, but you are all welcome to the Schema for it if
anyone wants to work on it. Ignore the bit between "{{--" and "--}}".
The rest shows a method of using XML for recording unique sector IDs,
names (including spaces etc.) and location (in terms of units, such as
"sectors" to spin/antispinward or core/rimward). Positive numbers are
spin- and coreward, negative ones antispin- and rimward.
Following that is a block from my exiting library data Schema to allow
general and historical data to be recorded, specifying what it can be
used for ("Canon", "TNE" "local" house rules and so on). Sections
shown allow for stellar physical information, rule or affilliation,
political events, economic structure and events, technology, military
records and general history. Most of the possible data is left blank
for (relative) brevity.
As well as general comments on the Schema, it would help if anyone can
identify any other sector-wide data that would need to be stored at
this level. Otherwise, if it meets the needs, I'll add the subsector
level next.
<--Astrogation XML Document (Minimal version)-->
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!-- edited with XML Spy v3.5 (http://www.xmlspy.com) by Mark A.
Preston (The Magpie's Nest) -->
<sector {{--xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2000/10/XMLSchema-instance"
xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="C:\Users\Mark\Games\Traveller\XML\Devel
opment\AstroML.xsd"--}} id="st141" name="Sarah&apos;s Rain" spin="14"
core="3">
</sector>
<--Astrogation XML Document (Full options)-->
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!-- edited with XML Spy v3.5 (http://www.xmlspy.com) by Mark A.
Preston (The Magpie's Nest) -->
<sector {{--xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2000/10/XMLSchema-instance"
xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="C:\Users\Mark\Games\Traveller\XML\Devel
opment\AstroML.xsd"--}} id="st141" name="Sarah&apos;s Rain" spin="14"
core="3">
<stellar>
<general scope="local">Sarah's Rain is a moderately dense sector,
with a stream of hot, yellow stars forming a narrow band through the
sector from core-spinward to rim-antispinward. Even so, it is very
sparsely populated and has never been an important part of human
exploration.</general>
<general scope="tml">A heavily packed sector with extremely dense
superheavy stars scattered throughout. There is a preponderance of red
supergiants, but with a core of hot, blue stars leading many to
suspect that a small singularity may be located near the centre of the
sector.</general>
<dated scope="local">
<from day="137" year="1024"/>
<to day="027" year="1038"/>Early in the first millennium,
scientific vessels were sent by the Imperium to investigate the
possible singularity at the core of Sarah's Rain. Communications were
lost and several resue missions sent to investigate, but to no avail.
The last such mission was sent from Core on 027-1038.</dated>
</stellar>
<rule/>
<politics/>
<economy/>
<tech/>
<military/>
<history/>
</sector>
- --
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3765
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Date: | 3/5/01 1:23:12 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, March 5 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3766
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Fractal hex coordinate system
Re: Sapiens
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Re: Astrogation design
Re: Fractal hex coordinate system
Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Re: Sapiens
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
RE: Sapiens
Re: Scout Brew logo...
Re: Fractal hex coordinate system
Re: New Traveller software project
RE: Sapiens
Re: Fractal hex coordinate system
GTQ: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering
EASI Tech: Smart Interfaces for Primitive Users
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Re: GTQ: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering
Re: EASI Tech: Smart Interfaces for Primitive Users
RE: Beer the New Traveller software project
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
RE: License To Program
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 16:48:19 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Fractal hex coordinate system
Hello Tim,
When I worked on the Hex ID distance calculation program, I discovered
that it would work for the entire known traveller universe if the following
new methodology was used...
Treat the capital world as having the HexID as 0000,0000 (this methodology
good for a map system that is 9,999 parsecs in radius). All other worlds
now have their HexID as being +/- 9999, +/-9999. There wouldn't be a need
for strange algorithms or anything else for that matter. As for how to
represent it on a map? a hex could be seen as 9999 9999 (space deliminating
the X and Y values) or it could be read as 9999-9999 for the positive X,
negative Y aspect or -9999 9999 for the negative X positive Y aspect, and
finally -9999-9999. String handling routines can separate the X and Y
coordinates easily enough.
As for the database? The worlds can have their normal world definition
data, but also include a entry that reads "Sector Capital" along with an
entry that reads subsector capital. In this manner, the standard Traveller
set up can be maintained, along with the newer standard...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 22:49:45 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Sapiens
Jeffrey Yin askes:
>Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H.Sapiens?
No explanations. It is simply stated as a fact. And subsequent Traveller authors
have been unable to resist the temptation to introduce some descendants of
transplanted human populations that has drifted too far to be interfertile with
the rest, so there is a contradiction there.
My own fix IMTU is to introduce a new designation: Hominid races. Hominid races
are those that are no longer interfertile with the human races. That way all
human races are Homo sapiens because the _definition_ of a human race is to be
Homo sapiens. Those that are not are not human but hominid races[*].
Obviously is a canon revision. If hominid races exists an article about human
races would mention them or at the very least refer to them, and the Library
Data entry about Humaniti does no such thing. But if you can get past that, this
explains a lot of other things, like why some material puts the number of human
races at 46 and others put them at 49 (Explanation: There is a grey area. Some
races are partially interfertile and just how partial it has to be to classify a
race as hominid instead of human differs from authority to authority). And it
gives a convenient way to pigeonhole those MHRs that are not interfertile with
the rest of humanity.
[*] For some reason there are not all that many of them. Somewhere between 6 and
12 would be my suggestion.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 22:57:54
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
The number and quality of microbreweries here in Colorado rivals Washington
state! (Local plug) While I lived in Hawaii, a friend of mine and some other
Germans went together to finance a microbrewery. They imported all of the
equipment for the brewery and hired a German Master Brewer to oversee the
operation. All of the ingredients were imported except for the water. The
beer was very good, but was never sold off-island.
I can see the same thing happening at different systems in Traveller. Not
all worlds are right for producing good hops, etc., so those would be
imported, but local water would be used. However, the water will cause the
taste to differ. Each world producing Scout Brew or the other leading brands
would have a distinctive flavor from the water (and the exact sources of the
other ingredients) that a connoisseur might be able to identify. (I have
heard that in some places Coke is made with beet sugar and in others cane
sugar, and that there is a difference.)
A suggestion for module for the Modular Cutter: a transportable
microbrewery.
John
>From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
>
>On 2 Mar 01, at 16:35, Peter Newman wrote:
> > I'm sure that the mass market Imperial beers would be dehydrated
> > at the factory and then reconcentrated with water at the factory.
> > They'd probably taste like it too.
>
>With the cost of transportation being so much, if local ingredients
>(or materials for things other than beer) can be found/made, wouldn't
>it be more likely to have franchises that distribute the Secret
>Formulae around? At least as the scale gets beyond a sector or so.
>I've envisioned (or read and forget where) that plans, formulae and
>research data, all things carried more economically via x-boat or
>other couriers would be used for disseminating scientific, financial,
>and manufacturing data. LSP sells the plans for it's products to
>affiliated manufacturers on various worlds. Quality control
>inspectors would be necessary -- now there's a job for PCs - quality
>control inspectors for Scout Beer? :)
>
>--
>Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:16:54 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Astrogation design
Paul Campbell wrote:
> The design I have been working on has a System containing a Star,
> which in turn contains Orbits. These Orbits contain other Stars,
> Planets, Gas Giants, etc.
Yes, this is similar to how my starmap generation program works.
The only thing to be careful of is to avoid generating large stars "in
orbit" of small ones. If you are reading in pregenerated data it
should be fine. I managed to end up generating a system of planets
around an M-class dwarf. Only problem, the 5th orbit contained an
F-class star, over 10 times as massive as the "primary"! Oops.
If a system has any planets, the stars have to be either much
further apart than the most distant planet, or much closer than the
closest.
> The root objects in my design were to be Universe objects, allowing
> multiple meilieus to be stored in the same DB. Similar to Galactic's
> ability.
This is a good idea. (I suspect you wouldn't be able to store MTU
in the database though. Not without changing a lot of Traveller
astrographic assumptions, such as the one that confines star systems
to a plane)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:38:10 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Fractal hex coordinate system
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Treat the capital world as having the HexID as 0000,0000 (this
> methodology good for a map system that is 9,999 parsecs in radius).
> All other worlds now have their HexID as being +/- 9999, +/-9999.
> There wouldn't be a need for strange algorithms or anything else for
> that matter.
The fractal coordinates were very tongue-in-cheek, of course :)
On a more serious note, the X/Y coordinates do have the odd/even
problem where neighbouring hexes have different relative coordinates
depending upon whether the X value is odd or even. That's part of
what I mean by "strange algorithms".
- - Tim
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:55:49 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Rob Davenport wrote :-
<following interesting news story quote>
> Siemen hopes to succeed where other failed by injecting heated and
> magnetized hydrogen into a 10-inch long, 3.5 inch-wide cylinder and
> then shooting a 10-million amp current into the can, which collapses
> and crushes its contents.
<snip>
> ObTrav: Mr. Fusion, anyone?
Sadly, not quite as compact as that, given the requirement for a 10MA
current.
The best bet in the near term would seem to be inertial confinement fusion
in Sandia's proposed X-1 X-ray source (~2010s).
Tokamak stuff is problematic, given the lack of financial support for it (is
the U.S. going to chip in again)?
Sigh. Maybe Leslie Woods is right, and it's not possible to achieve
high-yield fusion at all. I hope he's wrong, though.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 17:39:54 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: Sapiens
Jeffrey Yin wrote:
>
> Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H.
> Sapiens?
<smartass>
Do you have some other species of human in mind?
</smartass>
- -Russell B
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:02:00 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Dear Folks -
Tod wrote:
>Jesse, Glenn, Doug. Next Fun Shoot Mark and I will have to arrange a trip
>to one of our fine brewpubs, although I know you have you share in SF.
As long as you visit AFTER the Fun Shoot. ;-)
(Strewth, what have I started! It was only my little attempt to hose-down
the VB flamewar, after all. Obviously, the keg is mightier than the sword!)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 18:08:02 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: Sapiens
Heh. I was just going over the dates again, and realized (Not for the first
time, I hope) that the H.Sapiens were not the only species of hominid, if
they even evolved on earth by 395,000 BC. (Only my GT stuff is here, but I'm
pretty sure it is the same in each addition.)
Jeffrey Yin
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Russell Bornschlegel
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:40 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Sapiens
Jeffrey Yin wrote:
>
> Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H.
> Sapiens?
<smartass>
Do you have some other species of human in mind?
</smartass>
- -Russell B
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:22:10 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Scout Brew logo...
Dear Folks -
Mark created:
>Without further ado, I present for your approval, the "Scout Brew" logo:
>
>http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/scout_brew/
Excellent work!
>Now hopefully, Loren and Steve won't sue me! :^)
Doubt it. Apart from them being nice guys who can take a joke (unless - in
Stev's case - if the joke is made by the FBI ;-), satire is above such
problems as copyright. This is why TV shows such as "Full Frontal" in Oz
can take an advert and totally send it up without problems.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 21:28:55 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Fractal hex coordinate system
> On a more serious note, the X/Y coordinates do have the odd/even
>problem where neighbouring hexes have different relative coordinates
>depending upon whether the X value is odd or even. That's part of
>what I mean by "strange algorithms".
>
>
>- Tim
Yuppers - the odd even aspects do come into play with the x/y system. It
also seems to come into play with the U,X system as well. What I found to
be true with the X/Y co-ordinate system is that not only does it matter
whether the starting hex is odd or even, but it also matters whether the
distance itself is odd or even. Oddly enough? The *only* times this came
into play were in the arcs described by either the #6 arc or the #3 arc if
one assumes that the top hex side is the #1 arc. Why this is true, I don't
know.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:35:08 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: New Traveller software project
Dear Folks -
htp penned:
>The new programmers of today will grow up to be, surprise, surprise, the
>"professional" programmers of tomorrow. If the environment in which
>their learning takes place encourages short-cuts, fragile code, the use
>of proprietary software, and exclusive programming techniques which
>prohibit portability of code, then the industry is completely screwed.
You mean, like Microsoft?
- - Hyphen
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 18:39:53 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: Sapiens
Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly
120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the
ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the
assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens, or
did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations
they took?
Jeffrey Yin
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jeff
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 6:08 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Sapiens
Heh. I was just going over the dates again, and realized (Not for the first
time, I hope) that the H.Sapiens were not the only species of hominid, if
they even evolved on earth by 395,000 BC. (Only my GT stuff is here, but I'm
pretty sure it is the same in each addition.)
Jeffrey Yin
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Russell Bornschlegel
Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:40 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Sapiens
Jeffrey Yin wrote:
>
> Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H.
> Sapiens?
<smartass>
Do you have some other species of human in mind?
</smartass>
- -Russell B
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:42:39 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Fractal hex coordinate system
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Yuppers - the odd even aspects do come into play with the x/y system. It
> also seems to come into play with the U,X system as well.
No, the U/X system (or U/V if you prefer) doesn't have that problem.
The odd/even mess is due to the fact that the hex grid only has
horizontal translational symmetry if you go 2 hexes, not just one.
The U/V system avoids this problem since its axes are also axes of
unit translational symmetry of the hex grid. If you are doing
odd/even cases for the distance calculation in U/V coordinates, it
probably explains why you couldn't get my algorithm to work.
> What I found to be true with the X/Y co-ordinate system is that not
> only does it matter whether the starting hex is odd or even, but it
> also matters whether the distance itself is odd or even.
Yes, because you need to apply the odd/even case to the destination
hex as well as the originating hex. This makes for very messy code
and is best avoided.
> Oddly enough? The *only* times this came into play were in the
> arcs described by either the #6 arc or the #3 arc if one assumes
> that the top hex side is the #1 arc. Why this is true, I don't
> know.
I'm not sure what you mean here -- the 6 cases of arc segments of
constant radius are in the directions top-left, top-right, right,
bottom-right, bottom-left, and left. (The 6 corners can be considered
to belong to either or both arc segments depending upon what sort of
calculation you are doing). So when you say "the top hex side is the
#1 arc", I don't know what you mean. The top hex side is a corner,
not an arc.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 23:19:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org>
Subject: GTQ: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering
A lot of civil engineering seems to involve digging or blasting large
holes in the ground or rock. One of the more intriguing ideas I've had
recently involves the use of Traveller starship weaponry to jumpstart
small or large scale CE projects such as starport construction. (Yes,
this ties into my "How big is my crater?" thread.) Unfortunately I've
been unable to find information on translating various types of weapon
damage from GURPS HP into quantities of earth or rock loosened, moved
or destroyed. (There was an equation for determining impact crater
diameters, but it was derived from nuclear test site data.) Any ideas?
- --
@==================================================@
| Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |
| Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html |
| Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos |
| "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium." |
| Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium |
| Urgent! Aladdin takes the electric penguin and |
| took no notice of London. FNORD! |
@==================================================@
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 23:19:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org>
Subject: EASI Tech: Smart Interfaces for Primitive Users
The skill penalties for using advanced tech (B185) assume that its
operating characteristics would be substantially different than for
the equivalent device at the character's own tech level. While this
has been true in the past, it is now possible to design equipment
with advanced capabilities that can use the same control systems as
their lower tech ancestors. Here is my solution to that conumdrum.
Equipment with EASI (Emulated Alternate Systems Interface) controls
make operator obsolescence and mandatory retraining a thing of the
past, and are extremely useful in settings where PCs of different
tech levels must share the same ultratech gadgets. Implementing EASI
depends on the control mechanism; mechanical and electronic ones
require physical adapters while computerized ones use EASI software.
Unless the setting is inherently multi-tech (eg. Traveller), EASI
devices can not be found over-the-counter, but require some custom
alternations performed by skilled professionals.
EASI isn't cheap; each alternate interface available (*including*
the native one) should double the current retail price. While the
functions that are *quantitatively* increased (such as range, power,
damage, battery life, etc.) can be accessed with no penalty, totally
*new* functions that are above the EASI's nominal tech level (ie.
advanced laser beam types, or Jump Level in Traveller) cannot be
used at all. Switching to a different operating TL requies 1 second
for software EASIs, while changing hardware EASIs requires the same
time as changing the device's power cell (see sibebar CII p.16).
Comments please?
- --
@==================================================@
| Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |
| Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html |
| Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos |
| "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium." |
| Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium |
| The blueprint from the Bat Cave will go to Mars. |
| FNORD! |
@==================================================@
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 21:03:42 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Rob Davenport <rgd@ohio.voyager.net> writes:
>On 2 Mar 01, at 16:35, Peter Newman wrote:
> > I'm sure that the mass market Imperial beers would be dehydrated
> > at the factory and then reconcentrated with water at the factory.
> > They'd probably taste like it too.
>
>With the cost of transportation being so much, if local ingredients
>(or materials for things other than beer) can be found/made, wouldn't
>it be more likely to have franchises that distribute the Secret
>Formulae around? At least as the scale gets beyond a sector or so.
Rob, read the sidebar about "Brubek's" in "GT: Starports", page 86. You'll
note that it (Brubek's) is an Imperium-wide chain and they ship their beer
as a stable concentrate, to be reconstituted on site. Now, I not saying that
what you describe isn't done, but it would seem that the alternative method
is canon, at least for the largest chain of that type in the Imperium.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:45:04 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: GTQ: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering
Dalton Spence wrote:
> A lot of civil engineering seems to involve digging or blasting large
> holes in the ground or rock. One of the more intriguing ideas I've had
> recently involves the use of Traveller starship weaponry to jumpstart
> small or large scale CE projects such as starport construction.
I'd say starship weaponry is usually the wrong tool for the job.
Missiles are going to have obvious problems (not least of which is
cost) as blasting devices. Meson guns are probably pretty poor at
construction tasks, since they will probably make the site
radioactive. Other particle beams may have the same problem, or have
problems in atmosphere.
Lasers will almost certainly be pulsed and rapid-fire in weapon
systems, so they may have some promise. However, they would probably
be optimised for penetration of relatively thin armour rather than
bulk material removal or cutting. No starship weapon I can think of
will solve the problem of removing rubble from the resulting holes.
Blowing things up is pretty easy. Doing it accurately enough in
ground of somewhat uncertain composition, getting rid of the mess, and
making sure you don't destroy anything unintentionally is rather
harder. For example, you don't want to shatter the bedrock to
uncertain depth when digging out foundations.
In short, I don't think starship weaponry is going to help much, in
much the same way as tank guns and air-to-ground missiles don't get
used much in existing civil engineering. In general, using the right
tool for the job is much more productive.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:12:00 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: EASI Tech: Smart Interfaces for Primitive Users
Dalton Spence wrote:
> EASI isn't cheap; each alternate interface available (*including*
> the native one) should double the current retail price.
So a device with just a native interface and a single alternative
costs four times as much? Remind me why I don't just buy two devices
again, at half the cost? Or even four normal ones for the same price?
Particularly for computerised devices, the cost seems rather high
for the added functionality. Besides, if it only works on devices
that exist at the lower TL, why weren't the high-TL devices designed
to be compatible?
At worst, the high-TL device is just going to have a minor
familiarity penalty that will quickly disappear, like any other
unfamiliar version of the same type of device. If anything, it will
probably be *easier* to use once familiarity is achieved (if even
necessary). Modern devices tend to be much more accurate and
self-calibrating than older devices.
Of course, part of the problem is that the developments in future
Traveller tech levels are so much less per TL than past tech levels.
There is nothing to indicate that TTL F is anywhere near as advanced
over TTL A as TTL A is over TTL 5. In fact, from the descriptions and
devices, I'd say the difference between TTL F and TTL A is about the
same as the difference between late and early 1900's (one TL in GURPS
terms).
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:18:13 +0800
From: Nattrass <wulfren@iinet.net.au>
Subject: RE: Beer the New Traveller software project
Ahh VB
The Goon of Beer
*warm feeling*
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 19:49:56 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Russell Bornschlegel wrote :
<snip>
> While licensing of programmers might be a good thing for a few
> life-critical sorts of applications -- air traffic control, computer
> assisted brain surgery, nuclear power plants -- I don't see what
> harm can be done by writing buggy programs in the privacy of one's
> own home.
Melissa, Anna Kournikova.....
<snip>
> It really seems as if you're basing your opinions on VB primarily on
> your memories of classic BASIC.
I would doubt it. BASIC is a great language, it's much better than Visual
Basic.
<snip>
> Secondly, if you think VB is so evil, and care so much about the
> future of programming, "VB is for children" is an illogical
> attitude.
Agreed. They should be taught Jade, or if you want a more well known
language, Java.
> The computer industry, today, is moving too fast for licensing to be
> at all sensible. What languages are going to be important in ten
> years? What courses could I have taken in college in 1988 that would
> have best prepared me to do web development work today?[1]
Irreleveant. A licensed programmer does not have to be licensed for a
language or a product, just as general practioner is not licensed for a
particular diagnostic tool or drug.
They need to be licensed as being professional programers who follow best
development practices (Which fundamentally haven't changed in twenty or more
years, despite the claims of methodology vendors).
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 22:10:51 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: RE: License To Program
On 5 Mar 2001, at 19:49, Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> > Secondly, if you think VB is so evil, and care so much about the
> > future of programming, "VB is for children" is an illogical
> > attitude.
> Agreed. They should be taught Jade, or if you want a more well known
> language, Java.
I can't agree too strongly here. The good habits Jade forced on me have
lasted into less vigorous languages such as Delphi and C++. If you want to
teach someone good OO programming, you can't go far wrong with Jade.
Unfortunately, nobody's heard of it outside NZ.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:20 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAEEKJFNAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Greetings dear hearts.
Here in the UK, the concept of a 'license to program' has been kicked
about, but it is by and large seen to be unworkable.
We have 'professional bodies' such as the British Computer Society and the
Institution of Analysts and Programmers, which admit people to membership
on the strength of qualifications and experience. BCS members with
suitable academic backgrounds may also become Chartered Engineers.
However, these bodies include a very small fraction of those who actually
program for a living, let alone all those folks who compute for pleasure.
Any attempt to require everybody working in the industry to join one of
these bodies would cause the whole thing to grind to a halt.
There's also the question of suitability of the organisations, and the
fact that programming is one of those trades where people get into it by
many and diverse means. Take me. I'm an academic botanist by training. I
started as a 'trainee programmer' in a small software house one day, or at
least, that's how I was hired. I turned up for the first day at work to
discover that the other 2 programmers employed there had been fired for
attempting to rip off the code, and the chap who'd been hired as my senior
to replace them had turned down the job at the last minute. Ooops. Talk
about a fast learning situation :-)
That was over 10 years ago. I've been in the profession ever since,
programming, technical author and web-head - and I am only now beginning
to reach the stage where I am ready to go for MBCS as my degrees are 'in
the wrong subject'.
For my sins, I'm a member of the Council (governing body) of the
Institution of Analysts and Programmers. Virtually all the people on the
Council have either non-computing degrees or no degree at all. Yet they
are all professional (in every sense of the word) programmers.
A few thoughts.
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
(No, I am not going to add my post-nominals, it would give Mr Whipsnade
cramp when he responded!)
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3767
Date: | 3/5/01 11:00:22 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, March 5 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3767
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3762
RE: Sapiens
Re: License To Program
Note for Rockheads
Re: License To Program
Re: Scout Brew logo...
RE: Sapiens
Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Re: Sapiens
Re: Sapiens
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
RE: sapiens
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering
Re: GTQ: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering
Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Re: Traveller software project
RE: sapiens
Re: sapiens
Re: sapiens
RE: sapiens
RE: sapiens
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture"
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:08:01 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ian=20Cooper?= <ian_hammond_cooper@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3762
Apologies for interrupting, but does anyone have the
snail mail address for Roger Sanger, who was trying to
sell some of his Traveller material through this list,
as I have something to send him.
Ian
____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 02:26:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Sapiens
H. Neanderthalensis was around c. 300,000 B.C., as, evidently were a
few surviving H. Erectus (some evidence has them surviving till about
50,000 B.C. in parts of Asia).
IIRC, Cro Magnon was around at this time, too. If so, that is the
critter the Ancients used as DNA analysis indicates that H.
Neanderthalensis was not genetically similar enough to breed
successfully with H. Sapiens.
But, this is not to say that explorers won't come across populations
descended from H. Neanderthalensis or even H. Erectus somewhere out
there. Canon be damned, this would make a far more interesting
universe ...
- --- Jeff <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
> Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until
> roughly
> 120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between
> the
> ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the
> assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens
> Sapiens, or
> did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human
> populations
> they took?
>
> Jeffrey Yin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jeff
> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 6:08 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: RE: Sapiens
>
>
> Heh. I was just going over the dates again, and realized (Not for the
> first
> time, I hope) that the H.Sapiens were not the only species of
> hominid, if
> they even evolved on earth by 395,000 BC. (Only my GT stuff is here,
> but I'm
> pretty sure it is the same in each addition.)
>
> Jeffrey Yin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Russell
> Bornschlegel
> Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:40 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Sapiens
>
>
> Jeffrey Yin wrote:
> >
> > Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H.
> > Sapiens?
>
> <smartass>
>
> Do you have some other species of human in mind?
>
> </smartass>
>
> -Russell B
>
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" — Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1
**********************************************************************************************
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 22:07:28 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: License To Program
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> I can't agree too strongly here. The good habits Jade forced on me
> have lasted into less vigorous languages such as Delphi and C++. If
> you want to teach someone good OO programming, you can't go far
> wrong with Jade. Unfortunately, nobody's heard of it outside NZ.
I've heard of Jade, but I'm not sure whether it's the same Jade
you've used. The one I'm thinking of is a parallel-processing
extension to C. There is also a Lisp-variant language called Jade,
but that runs an editor and I don't have any experience with it.
Is there a third Jade?
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:22:28 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Note for Rockheads
Hi.
The Gamasutra web site at http://www.gamasutra.com/ has the first in a series of articles on procedurally generated universes online.
If you can read C++ (or understand maths), it's well worth a look. The author is involved in a re-write of Elite.
- - Rob.
- --
Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/dylan
"The idea behind Dylan-to offer a range of dynamism appropriate to each piece of an application-feels right, and after using Dylan you will become frustrated with C++ and Java." - Software Development Magazine.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 00:29:18 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: License To Program
On 5 Mar 2001, at 22:07, Timothy Little wrote:
> I've heard of Jade, but I'm not sure whether it's the same Jade
> you've used. The one I'm thinking of is a parallel-processing
> extension to C. There is also a Lisp-variant language called Jade,
> but that runs an editor and I don't have any experience with it.
> Is there a third Jade?
The one I'm referring to is an OO language. Try http://www.jade.co.nz
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 06:52:13 -0600
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: Scout Brew logo...
That's it. The logo just became the official nose art
on an NPC's command scoutships. The ship's name:
"Scout's Honor"
(Ah, memories of my time in the Boy Scouts of America)
David
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 08:15:54 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Sapiens
>Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly
>120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the
>ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the
>assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens,
>or did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations
>they took?
Or they took them, they evolved into H. Sapiens somewhere else, then they
brought some back.
None of these theories can be "true", though. Traveller canon asserts that
the Ancients came to Terra in -300,000, and they found some H. Sapiens (see
GT: Rim of Fire, page 39, for example -- where it says so in so many words).
Regardless of when our species evolved in the real world, in the Traveller
universe it existed three hundred thousand years ago.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:05:52 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
On 5 Mar 2001, at 11:55, Robert O'Connor wrote:
> <following interesting news story quote>
> > Siemen hopes to succeed where other failed by injecting heated and
> > magnetized hydrogen into a 10-inch long, 3.5 inch-wide cylinder and
> > then shooting a 10-million amp current into the can, which collapses
> > and crushes its contents.
> <snip>
> > ObTrav: Mr. Fusion, anyone?
> Sadly, not quite as compact as that, given the requirement for a 10MA
> current.
>
> The best bet in the near term would seem to be inertial confinement fusion
> in Sandia's proposed X-1 X-ray source (~2010s).
> Tokamak stuff is problematic, given the lack of financial support for it (is
> the U.S. going to chip in again)?
>
> Sigh. Maybe Leslie Woods is right, and it's not possible to achieve
> high-yield fusion at all. I hope he's wrong, though.
Me too, although after reading Dr.Forward's "Indistinguishable from
Magic" (revision of his "Beyond Magic" IIRC), it sounded like
antimatter might be a potential power source (however non-canon).
My question about the device in the article is - if it crushes the can,
it's pretty much a one-shot deal, no? Or at least you start needing a
lot of cans and/or crushers to get long-term power and thus not be
likely for use in ships.
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Gramen artificiosum odi. -- I hate Astroturf.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 07:27:56 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Sapiens
At 05:39 PM 03/04/01 -0800, you wrote:
>> Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H.
>> Sapiens?
>Do you have some other species of human in mind?
H. Erectus. Still fairly common in the proper time frame.
Yes, I'm ignoring the smartass tags. :)
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
- Xaonon, in alt.atheism
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 10:38:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Sapiens
Hans Rancke-Madsen write:
>>Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H.Sapiens?
>No explanations. It is simply stated as a fact. And subsequent Traveller
authors
>have been unable to resist the temptation to introduce some descendants of
>transplanted human populations that has drifted too far to be interfertile with
>the rest, so there is a contradiction there.
Probably the best known definition of a species is the biological
species
concept: "Species are groups of actually or potentially interbreeding
populations that are reproductively isolated from other such
groups." It
should be kept in mind that this is not the only definition, and
there are
some problems with it. How do you classify species in which there is no
sexual reproduction? Are sterile individuals members of a broad
species?
What about cases in which population A breeds with population B (same
species), and population B breeds with population C (same species), but
population A cannot breed with population C (different species)? It
happens. Then there are chronospecies...
All I am trying to say is that you have some latitude in the use of Homo
sapiens.
>My own fix IMTU is to introduce a new designation: Hominid races. Hominid races
>are those that are no longer interfertile with the human races. That way all
>human races are Homo sapiens because the _definition_ of a human race is to be
>Homo sapiens. Those that are not are not human but hominid races[*].
<snipped>
Very reasonable. Homonid refers to H. sapiens along with its recent
ancestors (back to the Astralopithecines) and close cousins (none of
which survive). By the biological species definition, your Hominid
"races"
would technically be species, but shading the language is nothing new.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:07:42 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
On 4 Mar 2001, at 21:03, Mark F. Cook wrote:
> Rob Davenport <rgd@ohio.voyager.net> writes:
> >With the cost of transportation being so much, if local ingredients
> >(or materials for things other than beer) can be found/made, wouldn't
> >it be more likely to have franchises that distribute the Secret
> >Formulae around? At least as the scale gets beyond a sector or so.
>
> Rob, read the sidebar about "Brubek's" in "GT: Starports", page 86. You'll
> note that it (Brubek's) is an Imperium-wide chain and they ship their beer
> as a stable concentrate, to be reconstituted on site. Now, I not saying that
> what you describe isn't done, but it would seem that the alternative method
> is canon, at least for the largest chain of that type in the Imperium.
Will do - as soon as I get GT:Starports. :)
I'd *rather* there be more reasons for trading, hauling around physical
material, but that thought popped into my head anyway. Actually, I
would think that there'd be some of both. Some companies would send
around/license the info on how, but it would be cheaper and of less
quality - especially if local ability to 'replicate' the needed
ingredients/materials in not advanced. The first fits of trade with
worlds out in the boonies, the unexplored reaches, might use this to
maximize the returns on their trips, selling more of the info without
having to lug in megatons of material. As trade matured, the desire
for "the real thing" would make commerce in physical materials more
economical.
So after a long adventure on some rockball colony with only locally
reprocessed/repurified ingredients in the local brew, getting back to
"civilization" with a real establishment that serves *real* Scout Brew
would be a welcome relief.
(Well, it's an idea. Might add some color.)
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam
elenganter concinnatur!
Those green pants go so well with that pink shirt and the plaid jacket!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:15:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: sapiens
Jeff writes:
>Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly
>120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the
>ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the
>assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens, or
>did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations
>they took?
I don't think that canon ever specifies that all "Humaniti" are
members of
Homo sapiens sapiens (FYI: Homo is always capitalized, sapiens never
is. Of course, Homo sapiens should be italicised or at least
underlined).
:)
As you point out, H. sapiens sapiens is considered to have shown up
about 100,000 years ago, but H. sapiens appears to have been around
since about 300,000 years ago. Thus it may be proposed that all the
descendents of those transported by the Ancients are H. sapiens but
not H. sapiens sapiens.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:12:51 -0000
From: "Alistair J. R. Young" <avatar@arkane.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
> > Secondly, if you think VB is so evil, and care so much about the
> > future of programming, "VB is for children" is an illogical
> > attitude.
>
> Agreed. They should be taught Jade, or if you want a more well known
> language, Java.
I won't have a chance to look at Jade for about another four hours, but
please don't let people start with Java (or any other garbage-collected
language, for that matter). It's absolutely dire what languages like
that, and other features that pick up the programmer's mess for him, can
do to the skill set of a beginner.
If they intend to program seriously in the future, they should start
with C, so that they understand how things like memory-management and
pointers *really* work, before they're given the tools that hide them
behind the scenes. Or better yet, assembler.
Anything else, and you produce people who don't have an appreciation for
how the system actually works; rather, they're stuck with magic-boxism
and when the underlying system comes back at them, they're lost at sea.
And the poor bastard who has to clean up the ensuing mess is *really*
screwed.
Alistair
(Been there, done that, got the lousy disposition to prove it...)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:19:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering
Dalton Spence writes:
>A lot of civil engineering seems to involve digging or blasting large
>holes in the ground or rock. One of the more intriguing ideas I've had
>recently involves the use of Traveller starship weaponry to jumpstart
>small or large scale CE projects such as starport construction.
<snipped>
There was that refit of old type S Scout/Couriers for mining
(sorry, I cannot remember the reference). It mounted a
mining laser in the turret, presumable optimized for cutting
into stuff and therefore inferior to standard lasers in combat.
I would imagine that the weapons lasers would be less
effective for mining (or engineering).
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:39:18 -0600 (CST)
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: GTQ: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering
On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Timothy Little wrote:
> In short, I don't think starship weaponry is going to help much, in
> much the same way as tank guns and air-to-ground missiles don't get
> used much in existing civil engineering. In general, using the right
> tool for the job is much more productive.
Of course, at this point, potential referees everywhere will get this
distant look in their eyes as they try to imagine situations where the
characters are in the wilderness or on a low-tech world and absolutely,
positively have to engage in civil engineering. Their starship and its
laser turrets, of course, are the closest things they have to the right
tool for the job, and there's no time to jump out and get something
better.
Example: on a low-tech world, a volcano has erupted and the lava flow is
headed for the nearby village. The PCs want to help, because they're such
nice guys (or they've been offered a worthwhile reward). Can they dig a
trench to divert the flow with their starship's lasers?
Greg Kettler
"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you
may not actually need an explicit loop exit. The loop will be terminated
automatically at the appropriate moment."
-Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 08:49:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Rob Davenport writes:
> Me too, although after reading Dr.Forward's "Indistinguishable from
> Magic" (revision of his "Beyond Magic" IIRC), it sounded like
> antimatter might be a potential power source (however non-canon).
Dunno what Forward actually says, but antimatter isn't a power source unless
you find a free supply of it somewhere. It's possibly a power storage
mechanism if antimatter production could be made a _lot_ more efficient.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 08:52:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
Rupert Boleyn writes:
> Yep. They had an 'out of memory' error the other day. First he gave it
> another 4gigs (as far as anyone could tell it shouldn't have been out of
> memory). Nothing. Gave it another 10gigs. Nothing. Gave it another 40gigs.
> Went fine, and they even got some of it back.
My favorite oracle story was trying to install 8i (I think) and discovering
that the java-based installer wouldn't run with less than 512MB of memory
and a gig of swap...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:01:18 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: sapiens
Okay, that much at least can be accepted. But why did all the populations
taken evolve into the same specie?
Jeffrey Yin
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Ian Ferguson
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 7:16 AM
To: traveller@ient.com
Subject: RE: sapiens
Jeff writes:
>Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly
>120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the
>ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the
>assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens,
or
>did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations
>they took?
I don't think that canon ever specifies that all "Humaniti" are
members of
Homo sapiens sapiens (FYI: Homo is always capitalized, sapiens never
is. Of course, Homo sapiens should be italicised or at least
underlined).
:)
As you point out, H. sapiens sapiens is considered to have shown up
about 100,000 years ago, but H. sapiens appears to have been around
since about 300,000 years ago. Thus it may be proposed that all the
descendents of those transported by the Ancients are H. sapiens but
not H. sapiens sapiens.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 17:10:04 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: sapiens
The same reason you and I did: Ancients genetic manipulation. The
Solomani aren't "root stock", no matter how much they believe it.
- - Rob.
Jeff wrote:
>
> Okay, that much at least can be accepted. But why did all the populations
> taken evolve into the same specie?
- --
Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/
"Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei,
Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."
- Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:13:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: sapiens
Jeff writes:
> Okay, that much at least can be accepted. But why did all the populations
> taken evolve into the same specie?
Well, if they were all the same species to start with, it isn't too surprising
that they'd remain the same species (it also wouldn't be too surprising if
they didn't, but...)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:57:56 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: sapiens
Well, that's the question. Did they? Even if they did, in all the four
hundred thousand years you would expect greater genetic varaiations then
merely "subspecies" status as currently exists. And if they did, why
experiment with only archaic Homo sapiens? I am only an enthusiast, and no
where near an expert, but I seem to recall that the neanderthal culture was
much more developed at the time, and would seem like a better choice.
Furthermore, as has already been pointed out, erectus survived on the ilse
of java until as recently as perhaps 50,000 B.C. In the interest of study,
it would seem reasonable that the ancients might make use of these other
hominids.
Jeff
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Rob Myers
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 9:10 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: sapiens
The same reason you and I did: Ancients genetic manipulation. The
Solomani aren't "root stock", no matter how much they believe it.
- - Rob.
Jeff wrote:
>
> Okay, that much at least can be accepted. But why did all the populations
> taken evolve into the same specie?
- --
Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/
"Narafala dei mo narafala dei mo narafala dei,
Wokabaot snel-spid dei long dei..."
- Ken Campbell, Wol Wantok.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 09:57:55 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: sapiens
To expect none of the forty something to drift far enough to warrant a new
species in four hundred thousand years seems unlikely, given the context of
human evolution.
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Anthony Jackson
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 9:14 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Cc: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: sapiens
Jeff writes:
> Okay, that much at least can be accepted. But why did all the populations
> taken evolve into the same specie?
Well, if they were all the same species to start with, it isn't too
surprising
that they'd remain the same species (it also wouldn't be too surprising if
they didn't, but...)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 09:22:02 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Frank Pitt wrote:
> Russell Bornschlegel wrote :
>
> <snip>
> > While licensing of programmers might be a good thing for a few
> > life-critical sorts of applications -- air traffic control, computer
> > assisted brain surgery, nuclear power plants -- I don't see what
> > harm can be done by writing buggy programs in the privacy of one's
> > own home.
>
> Melissa, Anna Kournikova.....
Touche', but it's not as if a licensed programmer couldn't write a
virus. Unless you're in support of licensing individual copies of
compilers to make it impossible to write a program without its
authorship being traced, which has frightening implications for
privacy and free speech, in my opinion -- and I'm not even a big
Open Source/Free Software Zealot (a sympathizer, perhaps, to some
extent, but not a zealot).
> <snip>
> > It really seems as if you're basing your opinions on VB primarily on
> > your memories of classic BASIC.
>
> I would doubt it. BASIC is a great language, it's much better than Visual
> Basic.
>
Doesn't VB have reasonable things like parametrized subroutines and
named labels in it? What makes BASIC "great" and better than VB,
in your opinion?
> Irreleveant. A licensed programmer does not have to be licensed for a
> language or a product, just as general practioner is not licensed for a
> particular diagnostic tool or drug.
>
> They need to be licensed as being professional programers who follow best
> development practices (Which fundamentally haven't changed in twenty or more
> years, despite the claims of methodology vendors).
The industry doesn't give a flying rat's ass about best development
practices.
- -Russell B
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:22:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture"
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
>But I live in San Francisco, where we have "vegans":
Oh, yeah, veganism. I myself cut all the ovo and almost all of the lacto
out of my diet, so I'm pretty close to a vegan now. I describe myself as
an ichthyoornithocarnovegetarian.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:56:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> Touche', but it's not as if a licensed programmer couldn't write a
> virus. Unless you're in support of licensing individual copies of
> compilers to make it impossible to write a program without its
> authorship being traced, which has frightening implications for
> privacy and free speech, in my opinion -- and I'm not even a big
> Open Source/Free Software Zealot (a sympathizer, perhaps, to some
> extent, but not a zealot).
Actually the better the programmer, the worse the virus is liable to be.
A virus written by a 12 year old in a kludgy language that is horribly
common has the advantage of being relatively easy to figure out, I would
think.
Kiri ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3767
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3768
Date: | 3/5/01 12:52:11 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, March 5 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3768
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Traveller software project
RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
Re: Traveller software project
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Lasagna (was Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how...)
RE: License To Program
Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Re: License To Program
RE: License To Program
RE: Sapiens
RE: sapiens
RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
RE: Sapiens
Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
RE: License To Program
RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3767
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 11:57:15 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Rupert Boleyn writes:
>
>
>> Yep. They had an 'out of memory' error the other day. First he gave it
>> another 4gigs (as far as anyone could tell it shouldn't have been out of
>> memory). Nothing. Gave it another 10gigs. Nothing. Gave it another 40gigs.
>> Went fine, and they even got some of it back.
>
>
> My favorite oracle story was trying to install 8i (I think) and discovering
> that the java-based installer wouldn't run with less than 512MB of memory
> and a gig of swap...
Then there had to be something seriously wrong with that system or
installer...I've put 8i on P-133 NT boxen with a 2 gig drive, and 64
megs of RAM...it wasn't pretty, but it ran.
Well, walked. Crawled sluggishly is more like it....
Now with some of the off-the-wall things that Oracle can pack into an 8i
install, I'd _almost_ believe it...but not stock 8i.
_Always_ custom install...
ObTrav...That jump 3 astrogation upgrade takes 3 times the amount of
storage space you have. Why? Well they toss in an installer for AOL,
demos for Windows 5674, Tomb Raider 876 (Lara's still around and looking
real old by now ;-), etc...
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 10:58:29 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
WOW
I love it.
I really do. much better than what i envisioned. I think this is a winner.
let me know what i owe you 8P
now to talk to jesse 8)
then to find a website 8P
Woot we are moving along. 8)
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark F. Cook [mailto:markc@peak.org]
Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 8:44 PM
To: Traveller Mail List
Subject: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
OK, Bill. Here's my 2nd pass as a piece of nose-art for your Beowulf.
http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/ship_logo/
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 11:06:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project
Bruce Johnson writes:
> Then there had to be something seriously wrong with that system or
> installer...I've put 8i on P-133 NT boxen with a 2 gig drive, and 64
> megs of RAM...it wasn't pretty, but it ran.
Something really fishy with the installer, as far as we could tell. We
didn't worry about it that much, that wasn't really underconfigured for
what we were trying to do and we didn't much care about hunting it down.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 19:20:49
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
I did my first "real" programming in machine and assembly languages for real
time satellite tracking and sensor systems. Boy, do I have an understanding
of how things really work and no magic-boxism. The most interesting project
involved self-modifying code; the program would rewrite parts of itself
depending on what function it was to do. That was back in the days when the
machines could not support all of the code that was needed. We learned to
program very efficiently! Maybe programmers working on embedded systems
still face some of the same problems.
I don't have the patience to do large projects in assembly anymore. I do
hope that software engineering programs do include some assembly or machine
language requirements so new programmers do learn how the computers really
function at the 1 and 0 level.
John
>From: "Alistair J. R. Young" <avatar@arkane.demon.co.uk>
>
>If they intend to program seriously in the future, they should start
>with C, so that they understand how things like memory-management and
>pointers *really* work, before they're given the tools that hide them
>behind the scenes. Or better yet, assembler.
>
>Anything else, and you produce people who don't have an appreciation for
>how the system actually works; rather, they're stuck with magic-boxism
>and when the underlying system comes back at them, they're lost at sea.
>And the poor bastard who has to clean up the ensuing mess is *really*
>screwed.
>
>Alistair
>(Been there, done that, got the lousy disposition to prove it...)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 14:49:09 -0500
From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
Subject: Lasagna (was Re: Is there a "standard imperial culture" and if so, how...)
Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:
>There are some lovely tofu-zucchini casseroles with tomato
>sauce out there that I might even enjoy if people didn't try to convince me
>that they were lasagna (which must have meat,
>and at least three kinds of cheese, in it.)
Actually, "lasagna" refers to the kind of pasta used - flat,
wide strips. Therefore any dish made with lasagna pasta is
correctly called "lasagna", but since so many people prepare
it with cheese and meat it is quite right to specify that
other ingredients have been used - "vegetarian lasagna"
or "tofu-zucchini lasagna", just like you might specify
"spaghetti with marinara sauce" or "linguini alfredo".
Walt Smith
mmmmm....pasta!! :-)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 14:54:03 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: License To Program
> > Secondly, if you think VB is so evil, and care so much about the
>> > future of programming, "VB is for children" is an illogical
>> > attitude.
>>
>> Agreed. They should be taught Jade, or if you want a more well known
>> language, Java.
>
>I won't have a chance to look at Jade for about another four hours, but
>please don't let people start with Java (or any other garbage-collected
>language, for that matter). It's absolutely dire what languages like
>that, and other features that pick up the programmer's mess for him, can
>do to the skill set of a beginner.
>
>If they intend to program seriously in the future, they should start
>with C, so that they understand how things like memory-management and
>pointers *really* work, before they're given the tools that hide them
>behind the scenes. Or better yet, assembler.
>
>Anything else, and you produce people who don't have an appreciation for
>how the system actually works; rather, they're stuck with magic-boxism
>and when the underlying system comes back at them, they're lost at sea.
>And the poor bastard who has to clean up the ensuing mess is *really*
>screwed.
>
>Alistair
>(Been there, done that, got the lousy disposition to prove it...)
It is amazing to me the arrogance of some people. Insisting that someone
must learn about memory management, pointers or any other low level
architecture in today's computing environment is like insisting that a
carpenter must be able to make his own tools, or an electrician must be able
to manufacture his own wire.
I've been programming for twenty years. I've written in assembler, and used
everything from Fortran to COBOL to Basic, not to mention Forth, tcl, Motif,
etc.
Now I'm primarily a user and my opinion is that most of my problems result
from the inability of "professional" programmers to do what's really
important to rolling out usable software. That's DOCUMENTATION!
Documentation, help files, user guides, user oriented (as opposed to
programmer oriented) interfaces, documented code, and use of unsuitable
tools (you know, like using c to make a GUI.)
To say that "best development practices" haven't fundamentally changed in
twenty or more years shows a basic lack of appreciation for the differences
between 8-bit and 64-bit architecture, cheap memory and expensive memory,
cheap storage and expensive storage. Insisting that a programmer use a
klutzy first or second generation language "because they'll have a better
appreciation of how the system actually works" smacks of elitism. (Surely
something programmers have never been accused of.)
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
p.s. equating lines of code (LOC) to program usefulness is a facetious
measurement. A single line of tcl can equate to dozens of lines of Motif,
let alone C or C++. Sometimes the only thing more LOC indicate is that the
programmer has made a bad choice of implementation language.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:13:23 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Hello Anthony,
>Dunno what Forward actually says, but antimatter isn't a power source unless
>you find a free supply of it somewhere. It's possibly a power storage
>mechanism if antimatter production could be made a _lot_ more efficient.
Forward says that antimatter production can be made more efficient with
today's technolgy - and more efficient by a scale of what, 10? He also
indicates that one should build solar arrays in space, and use the "free
energy" to produce antimatter. The only thing that GURPS disagrees with
him on is the storage container aspect.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:09:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: License To Program
Terry Carlino writes:
> It is amazing to me the arrogance of some people. Insisting that someone
> must learn about memory management, pointers or any other low level
> architecture in today's computing environment is like insisting that a
> carpenter must be able to make his own tools, or an electrician must be
> able to manufacture his own wire.
Actually, it's more like requiring a carpenter to know about the properties
of wood, or electrician about wire. I disagree that you need to learn to
program in C/assembler to do this, but having some idea of what the machine
is doing is good.
>
> Now I'm primarily a user and my opinion is that most of my problems result
> from the inability of "professional" programmers to do what's really
> important to rolling out usable software. That's DOCUMENTATION!
> Documentation, help files, user guides, user oriented (as opposed to
> programmer oriented) interfaces, documented code, and use of unsuitable
> tools (you know, like using c to make a GUI.)
Depends on which aspects of usable you're concerned with. Understanding the
basics is mostly useful if you want to avoid having bloated code which requires
10x the memory of another program that does the same thing. However, the
truth is, for many applications (or parts of applications) it doesn't matter
if its bloated, so what if it takes up a megabyte instead of 100k.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:21:50
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: License To Program
>From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
>
>It is amazing to me the arrogance of some people. Insisting that someone
>must learn about memory management, pointers or any other low level
>architecture in today's computing environment is like insisting that a
>carpenter must be able to make his own tools, or an electrician must be
>able
>to manufacture his own wire.
>
Terry,
I'll agree with you that a programmer does not have to know how a computer
or operating system works to be able to program. But, to use your carpenter
analogy, knowing how the system "really" works is like the difference
between a carpenter and woodworker. A woodworker can make, or at least
maintain, his own tools. He has a better understanding of his tools, media,
and craft, and can produce a more refined product.
I am in total disagreement with the concept of only "licensed" programmers
being allowed to program. In my work, most scientists do at least some of
their own programming for data analysis, etc. especially if it only needs to
be run once. Fully mil-spec software is overkill for many applications.
(Yes, I know the arguements that if it were done right the first time, large
parts could be reused on future projects, but I don't have the time to wait
for the first version.)
However, I do appreciate craftsmanship in any profession. Part of that
craftsmanship involves understanding the tools and the history of the trade.
John
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 15:28:22 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: RE: Sapiens
> Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 18:39:53 -0800
> From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
> Subject: RE: Sapiens
>
> Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until
roughly
> 120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the
> ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the
> assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens,
or
> did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations
> they took?
>
> Jeffrey Yin
Hmm. Quite the three pipe problem Watson.
Lets try this on for size: (my appologies if this has been suggested
already)
The Ancients stumble across earth c. 300,000 years ago and find a
potentially
usefull species (H.sap.) they create the genetic modifications that result
in
H. sap. sap. and seed these creatures throughout known space. On earth
the uplifted servants of the Ancients are placed - for whatever reason - in
cold sleep berths (perhaps durring the final war) in several different
locations
on the planet. Aproximately 100,000 years ago these people (our ancestors)
are woken up. They go on to push asside the H. sap. neanderthal in short
order.
This has the advantage of reconciling the eve theory and the apparent
fact that H. sap. sap. arose virtually simultaneously in several disparate
locations. The problems with this explanation are twofold. First what
happened to the cold sleep chambers that our ancestors survived in?
There should be at least some archaological remains of an ancients
sight from only 100,000 years ago. Secondly why were our ancestors
placed in cold sleep in the first place and how and why were they revived
again?
This of course does absolutely nothing to explain why there hasn't been
more genetic drift between the various human races over the last
300 milenia. Perhaps once a species has achieved a certain level
of intelligence the natural selection preasures that drive evolution
become much less prominent? The theory being if you have the
intelligence needed to figure out how to alter your environment there
is less likelyhood that the environment will alter you. (I think Niven and
Pournell tossed this out in "The Mote in Gods Eye" it might have another
source though.)
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:28:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: sapiens
Jeff writes:
>As you point out, H. sapiens sapiens is considered to have shown up
>about 100,000 years ago, but H. sapiens appears to have been around
>since about 300,000 years ago. Thus it may be proposed that all the
>descendents of those transported by the Ancients are H. sapiens but
>not H. sapiens sapiens.
Okay, that much at least can be accepted. But why did all the populations
taken evolve into the same specie?
As someone pointed out, as far as we can tell H. sapiens did
not evolve into a different species here on Terra, so it might not
have elsewhere (particularly if those pesky Ancient placed
them on worlds similar to Terra).
Jeff posts later:
>Well, that's the question. Did they? Even if they did, in all the four
>hundred thousand years you would expect greater genetic varaiations then
>merely "subspecies" status as currently exists.
Rates of speciation can be extremely variable. At the short end,
a new species of plant (reproductively isolated from all others) may
sometimes appear essentially instantly due to certain genetic
quirks. It has been estimated that 24 species of fruitfly have
evolved from a common ancestor within the past 800,000 years.
We don't typically expect speciation to occur this rapidly, however,
and 3,000,000 years may be more typical.
>And if they did, why
>experiment with only archaic Homo sapiens? I am only an enthusiast, and no
>where near an expert, but I seem to recall that the neanderthal culture was
>much more developed at the time, and would seem like a better choice.
The details are sketchy, and we may well be carrying around
neanderthal genes ourselves. They are (IIRC) currently considered
a subspecies of H. sapiens.
>Furthermore, as has already been pointed out, erectus survived on the ilse
>of java until as recently as perhaps 50,000 B.C. In the interest of study,
>it would seem reasonable that the ancients might make use of these other
>hominids.
I was hoping to avoid the subject of chronospecies :)
Anthroplogists, paleontologists, evolutionary biologists and their
ilk attempt to classify fossilized remains into species by various
traits such as size, shape, etc. It can sometimes be difficult to
distinguish species. (How different will lion and tiger bones look if
you have never seen the whole animals and only have a few
partial skeletons to go on? Now compare male and female lions.)
If that wasn't hard enough, how do you distinguish two species
when one slowly evolves from the other? There were hominids
that we now refer to as H. erectus, they had children who had
children who had children... until the children were H. sapiens.
There may have been "H. erectus" who looked like "H. sapiens",
especially late in the transition, and "H. sapiens" who look like
"H. erectus".
The bottom line is that 300,000 years ago, "H. erectus" and
H. sapiens" may have been the same people. Of course, there
may also have been enclaves that were more erectus-like.
>To expect none of the forty something to drift far enough to warrant a new
>species in four hundred thousand years seems unlikely, given the context of
>human evolution.
As I explain above, 400,000 years might be long enough for
speciation to occur, but it is not certain that it will have occured
in that time.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:36:12 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
What color ya' want the stripes :)
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 10:58 AM
> To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
>
>
> WOW
>
> I love it.
>
> I really do. much better than what i envisioned. I think this is a winner.
> let me know what i owe you 8P
>
> now to talk to jesse 8)
>
> then to find a website 8P
>
> Woot we are moving along. 8)
>
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark F. Cook [mailto:markc@peak.org]
> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 8:44 PM
> To: Traveller Mail List
> Subject: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
>
>
> OK, Bill. Here's my 2nd pass as a piece of nose-art for your Beowulf.
>
> http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/ship_logo/
>
> - Mark C.
>
> mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
> 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
> Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:43:26 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: RE: Sapiens
Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
>
> H. Neanderthalensis was around c. 300,000 B.C., as, evidently were a
> few surviving H. Erectus (some evidence has them surviving till about
> 50,000 B.C. in parts of Asia).
Not exactly. 300K BP you had Homo Erectus and Archaic Homo
Sapiens (something that seemed to be an intermediate form
between Homo Erectus and Homo Neanderthalensis).
> IIRC, Cro Magnon was around at this time, too. If so, that is the
> critter the Ancients used as DNA analysis indicates that H.
> Neanderthalensis was not genetically similar enough to breed
> successfully with H. Sapiens.
Cro Magnon was far later. Also, I strongly suspect that the genetic
data about Neanderthals not being cross fertile with our own
ancestors is simply a mistake. There are a number of skeletons
(specifically skulls) that come from regions with mixed populations
and that appear to be intermediate types (almost certainly
crossbreeds). Neanderthal is a very broad term, and the classic
northern european ones have skeleton that appear to be far more
divergent from us than the middle eastern ones were. I have no
idea if Neanderthals from northern France could breed with Cro
Magnons, but it looks *very* likely that Neanderthals from the
middle east could.
Then again, this issue is currently a hot topic in archeology.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:43:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
hal@buffnet.net writes:
> Forward says that antimatter production can be made more efficient with
> today's technolgy - and more efficient by a scale of what, 10? He also
> indicates that one should build solar arrays in space, and use the "free
> energy" to produce antimatter. The only thing that GURPS disagrees with
> him on is the storage container aspect.
Factor of 10 isn't a very interesting improvement. 10 orders of magnitude
would probably be sufficient for useful antimatter production.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:52:41 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: RE: License To Program
Hello Terry,
One of the reasons I've pretty much stopped commenting with regards to
this thread is just what you mention: elitism.
>It is amazing to me the arrogance of some people. Insisting that someone
>must learn about memory management, pointers or any other low level
>architecture in today's computing environment is like insisting that a
>carpenter must be able to make his own tools, or an electrician must be able
>to manufacture his own wire.
You've hit it in one Terry - arrogance. "I am a professional, and I hate
VB. If you query all the professional programmers - you will see that none
are willing to use VB voluntarily". It almost begs the question "If there
is a programmer who likes VB, does that make him automatically an
unprofessional programmer?"
I could go on and add more to this email, but I won't. It isn't worth it
to me to continue discussing VB with people on this list. Those who are
prepared to be helpful, I gratefully acknowledge your help and appreciate
it. Those of you who are neutral to the issue, again, you have my thanks
for being tolerant. The rest of you however...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:46:35
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
>
>What color ya' want the stripes :)
>Jesse
>
Bill,
I'm running a little slow on my version of your logo, but I do like Mark's.
I did have a thought for the stripes. I have a font of Hawaiian petroglyphs
that could be used on a stripe or as a "stripe" by themselves. For an
example, look at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/j_lambert/petroglyph.gif
John
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:48:58 -0800 (PST)
From: William Robertson <eviloverlord668@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3767
Long trailing response to several emails from a
paleontology suffering from Yaskoydray-envy.
> Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 02:26:55 -0800 (PST)
> From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: Sapiens
> But, this is not to say that explorers won't come
> across populations
> descended from H. Neanderthalensis or even H.
> Erectus somewhere out
> there. Canon be damned, this would make a far more
> interesting
> universe ...
>
Seems like "Missions of State" for T4 has a scenario
with the Vrash (or something like that), a humanoid
race descended from H. neanderthalensis.
Note: Yeah, I know a lot of Traveller-ites don't care
much for T4 (myself included), but in amongst the
various sourcebooks, there ARE some very interesting
tidbits for other Traveller versions.
> - --- Jeff <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
>>Is it the
> > assertion that all species X naturally evolved
> into Homo Sapiens
> > Sapiens, or
> > did the ancients cause the same change in all(?)
> known human
> > populations
> > they took?
> >
> > Jeffrey Yin
> >
Depends on which view of human evolution to which one
adheres. The "Single Origin" hypothesis (one group
evolved into H. sapiens sapiens) would suggest that
the various groups of Humaniti deposited by the
Ancients would have evolved in different directions.
The "Multiple Origin" hypothesis (that modern H.
sapiens arose independently in multiple locations)
would suggest that Humaniti deposited by the Ancients
would have all evolved in the same general direction.
From a purely "scientific" point of view, I've always
liked the CT taxonomy - seems like the various
versions of Humaniti were subspecies rather than fully
differentiated species, although some (Suerrat, for
example) would seem to have changed enough to be
considered a separate species, as overall appearance
might preclude mixing of Suerrat (fuzzy monkey) genes
with more "conventional" species of Humaniti.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf
> Of Russell
> > Bornschlegel
> > Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 5:40 PM
> > To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> > Subject: Re: Sapiens
> >
> >
> > Jeffrey Yin wrote:
> > >
> > > Are there any canon references as to why all
> human species are H.
> > > Sapiens?
> > <smartass>
> > Do you have some other species of human in mind?
> > </smartass>
> > -Russell B
No canon references as far as I can recall, but that's
maybe not too unusual - perhaps H. neanderthalensis
and H. erectus were not exactly what the Ancients were
looking for in a (pet/worker/pest control expert/etc.)
so only early H. sapiens samples were removed from
Terra.
300,000-400,000 years ~might~ be enough time for H.
sapiens to evolve into separate species - for
shorter-lived species (rodents, for instance), it
certainly is. Seems like H. sapiens has been around
for at least this long. Subspecies have been proposed
(Homo sapiens sapiens, for example) but I've never
seen a consistent definition for these. Everyone uses
the term differently (by everyone, I mean that
biologists use the term differently). Throw in a good
dose of layman input, then mix well with anthropology,
archaeology and sociology and it gets even ~more~
confusing.
At any rate, IIRC the old CT alien module for Zhodani
indicated that the Zhos were a subspecies of Humaniti.
Seems like MT stuff indicated that Vilani were also a
subspecies. Subspecies are a little more
differentiated than race.
In Traveller terms, Zhos a different number of teeth
when compared to Terran humans, the Vilani are
extraordinarily long-lived, the Darrians have wider
hips, different version of melanin, and like the Zhos
have altered biochemistry. This would indicate (at
least by MY use of the term), that these are
subspecies of Terran Humaniti (i.e. differences that
go beyond simple hair and skin color).
Best regards,
W.D. Robertson, M.S. (Biologist stranded on the
floodplains of South Texas)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/9327/main.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3768
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3769
Date: | 3/5/01 3:41:58 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, March 5 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3769
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: sapiens
Location of QSDS and SSDS
RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
OT: VB (was re: Traveller Software Project)
Re: sapiens
RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
RE: sapiens
RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
Scout Brew & Girl Scout Cookies...
RE: sapiens
RE: Sapiens
RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise
Another Traveller adventure online
Re: Sapiens
Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:48:27 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: sapiens
Despite how it may seem, I am *not* trying to be difficult. I am only a lay
man. (I look over to talk origins for the sitings, by the way. If something
there is flawed, you can bet I will be too.) I just think it would be
interesting to have neanderthals ruling some world somewhere.
"Rates of speciation can be extremely variable. At the short end, a new
species of plant (reproductively isolated from all others) may sometimes
appear essentially instantly due to certain genetic quirks. It has been
estimated that 24 species of fruitfly have evolved from a common ancestor
within the past 800,000 years. We don't typically expect speciation to
occur this rapidly, however, and 3,000,000 years may be more typical."
Hmm. Sounds reasonable. However, a four hundred thousand year period saw the
rise (and in some cases, fall) of archaic H.sapiens, H.sapiens
neanderthalis, and H.sapiens. Three (possibly more, given the vagueness of
the archaic H.sapiens status) is a pretty good rate of change, especially
when compared with the fruitflies. (I would assume it takes less to speciate
with less complex animals, though this would only be a bald assumption.)
"The bottom line is that 300,000 years ago, "H.erectus" and "H.sapeins"
may have beed the same people. . ."
Again, I would have to admit the validity of this statement. However, this
is because the H.sapiens of 300,000 years ago were not modern humans. I do
not believe it stands to reason that all populations of H.sapiens naturally
evolved into modern humans, given the conditions of ancient intervention.
(Assuming no genetic manipulation.)
Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:50:41 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
Subject: Location of QSDS and SSDS
Hello Everyone:
I am trying to get ahold of a copy of the Quick Starship Design Systema nd the
S Starship Design System. Does anyone know where they are located? And if so
could you send the info to me?
Thanks
John W. Fox
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 12:55:33 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
Hmmmmm, *that* could be pretty cool!
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of John Lambert
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 8:47 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
>
>
> >
> >What color ya' want the stripes :)
> >Jesse
> >
> Bill,
>
> I'm running a little slow on my version of your logo, but I do
> like Mark's.
> I did have a thought for the stripes. I have a font of Hawaiian
> petroglyphs
> that could be used on a stripe or as a "stripe" by themselves. For an
> example, look at:
> http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/j_lambert/petroglyph.gif
>
> John
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:54:36 -0500
From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
Subject: OT: VB (was re: Traveller Software Project)
Alistair J. R. Young <avatar@arkane.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>If they intend to program seriously in the future, they should start
>with C, so that they understand how things like memory-management and
>pointers *really* work, before they're given the tools that hide them
>behind the scenes. Or better yet, assembler.
Not all programmers want to program "seriously", for the above
value of "seriously". Current sub-US$1000 boxes have such
performance that memory management is nowhere near the
big deal it used to be. Sure, a less-skilled user can write
a program that will run out of memory, and has done so with
every computer language created thus far. An average driver
can kill herself and others by making a mistake while driving
under the speed limit, this fact doesn't make us force all
drivers to learn how to build automobiles before we let them
drive.
I don't expect everyone to learn how to be a "serious
programmer". I don't expect every fast-food fry cook to be
a professional dietician and gourmet chef rolled into one, either.
In a perfect world, there would be enough "serious programmers" to
fill the need for software - there isn't, so tools were developed
to make do. You don't like it, then go program fast enough, well
enough and broadly enough to fill the need and put the VB coders
out of their jobs. :-)
Walt Smith
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:00:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: sapiens
Jeff writes:
> Hmm. Sounds reasonable. However, a four hundred thousand year period saw
> the rise (and in some cases, fall) of archaic H.sapiens, H.sapiens
> neanderthalis, and H.sapiens. Three (possibly more, given the vagueness of
> the archaic H.sapiens status) is a pretty good rate of change, especially
> when compared with the fruitflies.
Well, that is zero new species in that time period. Almost certainly most
minor human races are new subspecies.
> Again, I would have to admit the validity of this statement. However, this
> is because the H.sapiens of 300,000 years ago were not modern humans. I do
> not believe it stands to reason that all populations of H.sapiens naturally
> evolved into modern humans, given the conditions of ancient intervention.
> (Assuming no genetic manipulation.)
Not sure anyone's claiming they did.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:06:04 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
WOW nice stripe. Well I would like to see your Nose art before i make a
final decision. this is so cool. So many different things. I want to thank
all three of you for helping me.
I am truely honored.
- -----Original Message-----
From: John Lambert [mailto:hovtej@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:47 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
>
>What color ya' want the stripes :)
>Jesse
>
Bill,
I'm running a little slow on my version of your logo, but I do like Mark's.
I did have a thought for the stripes. I have a font of Hawaiian petroglyphs
that could be used on a stripe or as a "stripe" by themselves. For an
example, look at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/j_lambert/petroglyph.gif
John
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:09:11 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
Well i like Johns stripes however I would like to give him an oportunity to
finish his work.
but for color would like it to match the logo. whether it is Marks or
John's. Other wise im cool with anything 8P
I am really really appreciative with the help you 3 are giving me.
If any of you live in the SF area let me know there is a dinner in it for
you 8)
Hasta
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jesse Degraff [mailto:jedegraf@cisco.com]
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:36 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
What color ya' want the stripes :)
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 10:58 AM
> To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
>
>
> WOW
>
> I love it.
>
> I really do. much better than what i envisioned. I think this is a winner.
> let me know what i owe you 8P
>
> now to talk to jesse 8)
>
> then to find a website 8P
>
> Woot we are moving along. 8)
>
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark F. Cook [mailto:markc@peak.org]
> Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 8:44 PM
> To: Traveller Mail List
> Subject: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
>
>
> OK, Bill. Here's my 2nd pass as a piece of nose-art for your Beowulf.
>
> http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/ship_logo/
>
> - Mark C.
>
> mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
> 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
> Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:10:13 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: sapiens
"Well, that is zero new species in that time period. Almost certainly most
minor human races are new subspecies."
What do you mean? H.sapiens (archaic) arouse specifically during that
period, and is certianly a (or a combination of) differnt species then
H.erectus. Furthermore, the variation between H.sapiens neanderthalis and
H.sapiens sapiens is far greater then is witnessed among the human
popultions in traveller. (Generally speaking)
"Not sure anyone's claiming they did."
No, they did not. However, implicit in the neglection of such a claim leaves
my initial question. Why do we not see more variation?
Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:05:12 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
William Lane <wlane@Asera.com> writes:
>WOW
>
>I love it.
>
>I really do. much better than what i envisioned. I think this is a winner.
>let me know what i owe you 8P
Bill, I consider those first five sentences payment in full. :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:12:24 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Scout Brew & Girl Scout Cookies...
We've had all this discussion about Scout Brew and I recall that someone
on the list (forgive me, but I forget who) made an allusion to the Wednesday
Addams line from the "Addams Family" movie about wondering if Girl Scout
cookies were made from "real girl scouts". Then, this morning, after I got
out of the shower, I opened the medicine cabinet in our bathroom and found
a container of Johnson & Johnson "baby powder" staring me right in the face.
Hmm.
This conspiracy may run much deeper than we originally suspected.
- Mark C.
P.S. Did everybody catch last night's episode of "Futurama: When Good
Penguins Go Bad"? ROTFL!!
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:20:04
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: sapiens
>From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
>my initial question. Why do we not see more variation?
>
>Jeff
>
>
>
Maybe the ancients did something to stablize the mutation rate after making
their selection. Maybe they were here earlier, and tinkered with the
mutation rate to encourage a wider range of choices.
John
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:22:55 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Sapiens
>Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly
>120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the
>ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the
>assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens,
or
>did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations
>they took?
>
>Jeffrey Yin
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jeff
>Sent: Sunday, March 04, 2001 6:08 PM
>To: traveller@lists.ient.com
>Subject: RE: Sapiens
>
>
>
>Jeffrey Yin wrote:
>>
>> Are there any canon references as to why all human species are H.
>> Sapiens?
>
><smartass>
>
>Do you have some other species of human in mind?
>
></smartass>
>
>-Russell B
The Zhodani are a subspecies of H. Sapiens. They seem to be inter-fertile
with Solomani stock, but they do have fewer teeth.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:40:25 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
Same here my friend.
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Mark F. Cook
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 1:05 PM
> To: Traveller Mail List
> Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
>
>
> William Lane <wlane@Asera.com> writes:
>
> >WOW
> >
> >I love it.
> >
> >I really do. much better than what i envisioned. I think this
> is a winner.
> >let me know what i owe you 8P
>
> Bill, I consider those first five sentences payment in full. :^)
>
> - Mark C.
>
> mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
> 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
> Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:50:07 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Frank Pitt wrote:
>> Russell Bornschlegel wrote :
>>
>> <snip>
>> > While licensing of programmers might be a good thing for a few
>> > life-critical sorts of applications -- air traffic control, computer
>> > assisted brain surgery, nuclear power plants -- I don't see what
>> > harm can be done by writing buggy programs in the privacy of one's
>> > own home.
>>
>> Melissa, Anna Kournikova.....
>
>Touche', but it's not as if a licensed programmer couldn't write a
>virus. Unless you're in support of licensing individual copies of
>compilers to make it impossible to write a program without its
>authorship being traced, which has frightening implications for
>privacy and free speech, in my opinion -- and I'm not even a big
>Open Source/Free Software Zealot (a sympathizer, perhaps, to some
>extent, but not a zealot).
>
>> <snip>
>> > It really seems as if you're basing your opinions on VB primarily on
>> > your memories of classic BASIC.
>>
>> I would doubt it. BASIC is a great language, it's much better than Visual
>> Basic.
>>
>
>Doesn't VB have reasonable things like parametrized subroutines and
>named labels in it? What makes BASIC "great" and better than VB,
>in your opinion?
>
From the other remarks made I would say that the "problem" is an opinion on
the value of proprietary software and systems. BASIC is good because it is
not proprietary. VB is bad because it is. Linux is good because it is not
proprietary. Windows is bad...etc.
Huge numbers of people use MS ware because it has a massive platform base.
Where I work we are in hock to either MS on the business side or HP or Sun
on the science side. And I don't know which is worst. When we have problems
with out MS stuff we have problems because so much of the system software is
not well documented by MS. On the HP side we have to pay thousands to get
the same color resolution that a PC gets with a hundred dollar video board.
You don't want to know what the equivalent of an $80 scanner costs.
I once had a problem with a password protected screen saver on my CUE login.
I work in a control room, where the machine status screens should never have
a screen saver come up, let alone a password protected one. It took a system
admin guy and me over an hour to go through every one of the dozen or so
files that could override my preferences for the screen saver. And people
keep telling me how bad NT is. For my money UNIX can be just as bad, or
worse.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:38:08 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Terry Carlino wrote:
> I once had a problem with a password protected screen saver on my CUE login.
> I work in a control room, where the machine status screens should never have
> a screen saver come up, let alone a password protected one. It took a system
> admin guy and me over an hour to go through every one of the dozen or so
> files that could override my preferences for the screen saver. And people
> keep telling me how bad NT is. For my money UNIX can be just as bad, or
> worse.
None of the admins here will touch a HP-UX box with a ten foot bargepole, unless there's a primed C4 charge on the end of it.
HP-UX was a horrible FrankenUnix made of the corpses of a System V
(HP's) and a BSD (Apollo's) implementations.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 00:06:15 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise
Jeffrey Yin writes:
>I was just going over the dates again, and realized (Not for the first time, I
>hope) that the H.Sapiens were not the only species of hominid, if they even
>evolved on earth by 395,000 BC.
This is where it becomes necessary to realize that the Traveller universes are
not carbon copies of the real universe. In our universe anthropologists are
debating if an archaic for of Homo sapiens had evolved by 300,000 BC. In the TU
it is an established fact that it had. You can either assume that the two
universes differ or that present-day theories (and they are only theories) are
wrong.
And Jeff also writes:
>Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly
>120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the
>ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the
>assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens, or
>did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations
>they took?
No. The archaic Homo sapiens (_Homo sapiens antiquitus_ as I call them) left
behind on Earth evolved into _Homo sapiens sapiens_. The ones taken to Zhdant
evolved into _Homo sapiens zhodotlas_. The ones take to Darryen evolved into
_Homo sapiens darriensis_[*]. The ones taken to Vland evolved into _Homo
sapiens bilandin_[*]. Etc. They all evolved into different subspecies. That's
not the problem. The problem is that early canon sources implies that none of
these subspecies diverged enough to become separate species. Unfortunately
later Traveller authors forgot that and introduced some that were separate
species.
[*] Terms of my own coinage. Anyone with better ideas are welcome to suggest
them.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 23:15:44 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: Another Traveller adventure online
The second Yori adventure ("The Name Of The Coral") is now
finished and on StuffOnline. No doubt it will go past with
bearly a whisper of achnowledgement. For those of you who are
wondering I am planning to have part 3 ("The Cruel Undersea")
done before Gencon UK. Part 3 will feature an underwater
component! (Those of you who haven't read the Yori Landgrab are
probable wondering "but Yori's a desert world, how can there be
an underwater component?")
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 00:30:40 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Sapiens
Gerry Harris writes:
>But, this is not to say that explorers won't come across populations
>descended from H. Neanderthalensis or even H. Erectus somewhere out
>there. Canon be damned, this would make a far more interesting
>universe ...
Hence my suggestion to introduce/legitimize Minor Hominid Races to the TU.
Paul Drye writes:
>Traveller canon asserts that the Ancients came to Terra in -300,000, and they
>found some H. Sapiens [...] Regardless of when our species evolved in the real
>world, in the Traveller universe it existed three hundred thousand years ago.
But canon doesn't say that they found H. sapiens _sapiens_. Just H. sapiens.
Our species demonstrably existed 300,000 years ago (in the TU), but our
subspecies presumably did not.
Ian Ferguson writes:
>Probably the best known definition of a species is the biological species
>concept: "Species are groups of actually or potentially interbreeding
>populations that are reproductively isolated from other such groups."
The definition used by the Traveller canon is set forth in _Solomani_. I don't
have an exact quote here, but it basically uses the one about interfertility
(and ignores the grey areas).
>It should be kept in mind that this is not the only definition, and there are
>some problems with it. How do you classify species in which there is no
>sexual reproduction?
Not really a problem when talking about hominid species.
>All I am trying to say is that you have some latitude in the use of Homo
>sapiens.
>Hominid refers to H. sapiens along with its recent ancestors (back to the
>Astralopithecines) and close cousins (none of which survive). By the
>biological species definition, your Hominid "races" would technically be
>species, but shading the language is nothing new.
I'm using 'races' the way Traveller canon does. Evidently the usage has changed
over the4 years.
Ian Ferguson also writes:
>Jeff writes:
>>Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly
>>120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the
>>ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the
>>assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens, or
>>did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations
>>they took?
>
>I don't think that canon ever specifies that all "Humaniti" are members of
>Homo sapiens sapiens.
No, just _Homo sapiens_.
And Jeffery Yin writes:
>Okay, that much at least can be accepted. But why did all the populations
>taken evolve into the same species?
They didn't. They all started out being of the same species and did not diverge
enough to become separate species. All the ones we've heard of till now did
evolve to some degree. Just not enough.
>Rob Myers writes:
>Jeff wrote:
>>Okay, that much at least can be accepted. But why did all the populations
>>taken evolve into the same specie?
>
>The same reason you and I did: Ancients genetic manipulation. The
>Solomani aren't "root stock", no matter how much they believe it.
Unlikely. If the ancients did attempt to 'freeze' their human populations they
did a remarkably poor job, since every subspecies we've heard of till now has
evolved a bit.
(Of course, one could argue that the Ancients did try to stabilize their human
servants and achieved such a remarkable success that they didn't evolve enough
in 300,000 years to become separate species. I suppose it depends on how
powerful one imagines the Ancients to be. My own feeling is that if the Ancients
had wanted to stabilize Humanity, then there would have been no evolution
whatsoever in the last 300,000 years (except possibly on Terra) and every other
human population would still be identical to _Homo sap. antiquitus_. YMMV.)
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 00:39:24 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)
Jeffrey Yin writes:
>Well, that's the question. Did they? Even if they did, in all the four
>hundred thousand years you would expect greater genetic varaiations then
>merely "subspecies" status as currently exists.
300,000 years. There are some canon publications where the figure 400,000 years
appear, but they are in error. The Ancients period spans about 20,000 years
roughly 300,000 years ago. Material that claims that the Ancients did this or
that 400,000 years ago is in error.
>And if they did, why experiment with only archaic Homo sapiens?
1) It was the most adaptable of the hominids the Ancients found, so they stuck
to them.
2) As above, but samples of the other species were taken. However, none of them
survived into historic times.
3) As 2), but some survived. They just haven't been found yet.
4) As 3) and some of them have been found. Note that this last one would
defintiely be contrary to canon.
>I am only an enthusiast, and no where near an expert, but I seem to recall
>that the neanderthal culture was much more developed at the time, and would
>seem like a better choice.
The Neanderthals didn't evolved until much later. Currently anthropologists
argue whether they were a subspecies of H. sapiens or a distinct species. But
they were not around when the Ancients came calling.
Hans
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3769
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3770
Date: | 3/6/01 12:23:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, March 6 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3770
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise
RE: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)
re: Scout Brew & Girl Scout Cookies...
Re: Sapiens
RE: Sapiens
New law in Australia
Re: New law in Australia
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
RE: Sapiens
RE: Sapiens
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
RE: Sapiens
Re: Sapiens
Re: Sapiens
Humans, Sapiens et al
RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:05:20 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise
The issue is not if we can give different names to the other human races.
The question is why there are not more significant morphological and genetic
differences between the human races.
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Hans Rancke-Madsen
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 3:06 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise
Jeffrey Yin writes:
>I was just going over the dates again, and realized (Not for the first
time, I
>hope) that the H.Sapiens were not the only species of hominid, if they even
>evolved on earth by 395,000 BC.
This is where it becomes necessary to realize that the Traveller universes
are
not carbon copies of the real universe. In our universe anthropologists are
debating if an archaic for of Homo sapiens had evolved by 300,000 BC. In the
TU
it is an established fact that it had. You can either assume that the two
universes differ or that present-day theories (and they are only theories)
are
wrong.
And Jeff also writes:
>Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly
>120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the
>ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the
>assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens Sapiens,
or
>did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human populations
>they took?
No. The archaic Homo sapiens (_Homo sapiens antiquitus_ as I call them) left
behind on Earth evolved into _Homo sapiens sapiens_. The ones taken to
Zhdant
evolved into _Homo sapiens zhodotlas_. The ones take to Darryen evolved into
_Homo sapiens darriensis_[*]. The ones taken to Vland evolved into _Homo
sapiens bilandin_[*]. Etc. They all evolved into different subspecies.
That's
not the problem. The problem is that early canon sources implies that none
of
these subspecies diverged enough to become separate species. Unfortunately
later Traveller authors forgot that and introduced some that were separate
species.
[*] Terms of my own coinage. Anyone with better ideas are welcome to suggest
them.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:09:17 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)
The fact that Neanderthal man does not arise until after the decline of
archaic homo sapiens is a good indication of the possible variations that at
least some of the dispersed human populations may have taken, as the same
species is believed to be the last common ancestor of neanderthals and us.
As to your given reasons for why only archaic homo sapiens (very good ones,
btw) there still exists issues.
1) If the ancients found canines worth their time, you would think they
would give other hominids a chance. Not that the canines don't have worth
while advantages the ancients would want, but I see no reason why they would
ignore H.erectus, a very successful species in the hominid line.
2) Certainly possible. The war did wipe out a lot of evidence.
3) Hmm. Sounds like an intriguing possibility.
4) Are there canon references which state something to the tune of "All
humans found are sub species of H.sapiens?" (Not that I don't agree with you
on this one, but if there is also a canon reference, it would be helpful.)
Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:10:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Scout Brew & Girl Scout Cookies...
>From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
>We've had all this discussion about Scout Brew and I recall that someone
>on the list (forgive me, but I forget who) made an allusion to the
>Wednesday Addams
That was me. I would also draw your recollection to the discussion of how
in some places with low literacy, it is common for vendors to put a
picture of the product on the can or box. That can of Boston Baked Beans
will sell just fine there, but the Gerber's Baby Food may at least raise
some eyebrows.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 19:17:36 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sapiens
> None of these theories can be "true", though. Traveller canon asserts that
> the Ancients came to Terra in -300,000, and they found some H. Sapiens
(see
> GT: Rim of Fire, page 39, for example -- where it says so in so many
words).
>
> Regardless of when our species evolved in the real world, in the Traveller
> universe it existed three hundred thousand years ago.
It just means we haven't found the -300K BP evidence yet.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 16:34:27 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: Sapiens
With respect, that isn't what the sidebar says. Following the same
reference, it goes on to say:
"The most advanced hominid at the time was an "archaic" version of Homo
sapiens." (GT, Rim of Fire, pg. 39 sidebar)
The implication, as the sidebar goes on to make, is either
1) We evolved a lot faster then is currently believed
or
2) The ancients modified a large portion of archaic H.sapiens.
The problem with both is it fails to explain why modern H.sapiens do not
appear at 395,000 B.C., nor for more then two hundred thousand years after.
(The GT date, if, as Hans says, not the real date.) Also, if modern
H.sapiens existed over a longer period then is currently believed, it raises
new issues of its own.
More time increases the chances of interaction. Increased interaction should
eventually warrant some evidence. Perhaps archaic Homo sapiens with obvious
spear wounds. Not just isolated people, but communities. Trade, technology
and spiritual beliefs should also be somewhat more advanced.
Jeff
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 4:18 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Sapiens
> None of these theories can be "true", though. Traveller canon asserts that
> the Ancients came to Terra in -300,000, and they found some H. Sapiens
(see
> GT: Rim of Fire, page 39, for example -- where it says so in so many
words).
>
> Regardless of when our species evolved in the real world, in the
Traveller
> universe it existed three hundred thousand years ago.
It just means we haven't found the -300K BP evidence yet.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:02:01 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: New law in Australia
Dear Folks -
Gee, folks, you'll just *love* this!!!!!
Beware - Big Brother is watching you! (In Oz, at least.)
>As you may, or may not be aware, it is now illegal in Australia to forward
>email without explicit permission of it's author. You face fines up to
>$60000 and 5 years in gaol.
>As such, to protect yourselves I recommend you do not under any
>circumstances forward emails without permission of that emails author, and
>all other quoted authors.
>To protect other people, I recommend you use a stationay such as this one
as
>a minimum.
>A proper legal one follows.
>
>
><name> <phone>
>Copyright © <ccyy>
>Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this
>document, but changing it is not allowed.
(Does this mean that proxy servers are breaking the law, because they
forward your emails to you? ;-) ;-)
This was apparently precipitated by that sexually explicit email from the
UK-based Rose Norton law firm that was sent earlier in the year. The only
way the girl involved could get at "Brad the Cad", was to sue him for
breach of copyright (trust a lawyer to work that one out). The Aust govt
decided to pass a law about it on the weekend.
It remains to be seen if internal company emails are affected - does
copyright invest in the author, or the company? Or jointly?
(This'll be one of those things pursued for a while by the govt, and which
will cause a great IT debate, before everyone realises it's silly and "all
too hard" - and thus drop it. Like most attempts to control the Internet -
sorry, but the genie is now out of the bottle!).
I suppose we all need to update our .sig files... bloody hell, mine's long
now, what with the work disclaimer as well (I'm terribly sorry about it! -
especially to all those with slow modems!!). I'll have to make sure I only
reply when really necessary, maybe???
:-(
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D AUST DISCLAIMER - Copyright © 2001. You are permitted to copy and
distribute verbatim copies of or quotes taken from this document, as
long as the original form of the text is unchanged.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:07:51 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: New law in Australia
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> >As you may, or may not be aware, it is now illegal in Australia to forward
> >email without explicit permission of it's author.
The attorney-general has explicitly denies that forwarding email is
illegal. However, the wording of the press release implies that this
is only true for "trivial" email that is not considered to have
"necessary originality" -- office gossip, circulated jokes, etc. I
was sort of amused by how it *was* worded -- it carefully avoids the
question of where the boundary is between email covered by copyright
and email not covered.
"Amendments to the Copyright Act that came into effect today do not
outlaw the practice of forwarding personal e-mails to other
people. That would be ridiculous."
However,
"Forwarding a personal e-mail is unlikely to breach copyright
laws."
<http://www.law.gov.au/aghome/agnews/2001newsag/931_01.htm>
So it would be "ridiculous" to make forwarding personal email
illegal, but is only "unlikely" to breach copyright laws.
> (Does this mean that proxy servers are breaking the law, because they
> forward your emails to you? ;-) ;-)
Well, it still appears that anyone operating any sort of cache that
temporarily holds copyrighted material is breaking the law. I haven't
seen anything to indicate otherwise yet. The only question seems to
be whether a given piece of email has any sort of copyright at all.
> It remains to be seen if internal company emails are affected - does
> copyright invest in the author, or the company? Or jointly?
The implication of the A-G's press release is that very little email
is protected by copyright. Which of course opens up a whole new can
of worms.
- - Tim
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:07:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Bruce Johnson writes:
> None of the admins here will touch a HP-UX box with a ten foot bargepole,
> unless there's a primed C4 charge on the end of it.
HP-UX isn't quite that bad. The real problem is that you should never touch
Unix windowing systems with a 10' pole.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 19:33:00 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
At 01:09 PM 03/05/01 -0800, you wrote:
>If any of you live in the SF area let me know there is a dinner in it for
>you 8)
Are you on the Traveller in SF list? Or going to BayCon?
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 23:01:10 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: RE: Sapiens
>More time increases the chances of interaction. Increased interaction should
>eventually warrant some evidence. Perhaps archaic Homo sapiens with obvious
>spear wounds. Not just isolated people, but communities. Trade, technology
>and spiritual beliefs should also be somewhat more advanced.
Hi Jeff,
Just out of curiosity - what is the oldest non-fossilized set of bones
ever discovered?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:26:28 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: Sapiens
Hmm. If you want an accurate answer, one of the experts of the lists could
probably tell you. If a completely uneducated guess would do, I would think
that bones would take a while to fossilize (like maybe thousands of years,
or something.) So maybe a couple of thousand or something? I have no idea.
Jeff Yin
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of hal@buffnet.net
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 11:01 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Sapiens
>More time increases the chances of interaction. Increased interaction
should
>eventually warrant some evidence. Perhaps archaic Homo sapiens with obvious
>spear wounds. Not just isolated people, but communities. Trade, technology
>and spiritual beliefs should also be somewhat more advanced.
Hi Jeff,
Just out of curiosity - what is the oldest non-fossilized set of bones
ever discovered?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:42:38 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
On 5 Mar 2001, at 14:12, Alistair J. R. Young wrote:
> I won't have a chance to look at Jade for about another four hours, but
> please don't let people start with Java (or any other garbage-collected
> language, for that matter). It's absolutely dire what languages like
> that, and other features that pick up the programmer's mess for him, can
> do to the skill set of a beginner.
> If they intend to program seriously in the future, they should start
> with C, so that they understand how things like memory-management and
> pointers *really* work, before they're given the tools that hide them
> behind the scenes. Or better yet, assembler.
To put it bluntly, balderdash. What the budding programmers to tommorrow
need to learn above all else (and need to learn desperately, if todays
programmers are anything to go by) is the need for detailed design
documentation and keeping good metrics!
In todays resource rich environments, issues such as memory
management are nice but well down the list from things such as detailed
structured design, system documentation, user documentation, seperation
of interface and functionality, keeping good metrics, the need for rigorous
testing etc. All things the low level languages are *not* good at teaching.
Now adays very few applications need the low level system access that C
and Assembler are good at, but virtually all do need to have code that can
be maintained.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 04:45:32
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
It is not finished (she still needs a flower), but I do have my attempt at
the nose art for the Mahina Tiare posted at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/j_lambert/NoseArt.htm
I have also added some additional petroglyphs for the stripe.
Bill, thanks for providing us with such a fun project to work on. Your kind
comments are payment enough. I would share a Scout Brew or the local
equivalent with you sometime!
John
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 23:19:14 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: RE: Sapiens
Jeffrey wrote:
>Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until
roughly
>120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between
the
>ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens. Is it the
>assertion that all species X naturally evolved into Homo Sapiens
Sapiens, or
>did the ancients cause the same change in all(?) known human
populations
>they took?
GDW set the date of Homo Sapiens at -500,000 (Traveller Alien Module 6,
pg 2). Sub-species should be interfertile, thus under GDW's
assumptions, Neanderthal (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis), Cro-Magnon
(Homo sapiens cro-magnon), Solomani (Homo sapiens sapiens), Vilani,
Zhodani, etc are interfertile.
Also note that the diversion between Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon happen
during the time of the Ancients visits. (according to AM6)
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 23:19:29 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Sapiens
Hans wrote:
>Jeffrey Yin askes:
>
>>Are there any canon references as to why all human species are
H.Sapiens?
>
>No explanations. It is simply stated as a fact. And subsequent
Traveller authors
>have been unable to resist the temptation to introduce some descendants
of
>transplanted human populations that has drifted too far to be
interfertile with
>the rest, so there is a contradiction there.
>
>My own fix IMTU is to introduce a new designation: Hominid races.
Hominid races
>are those that are no longer interfertile with the human races. That
way all
>human races are Homo sapiens because the _definition_ of a human race
is to be
>Homo sapiens. Those that are not are not human but hominid races[*].
>
>Obviously is a canon revision. If hominid races exists an article about
human
>races would mention them or at the very least refer to them, and the
Library
>Data entry about Humaniti does no such thing. But if you can get past
that, this
>explains a lot of other things, like why some material puts the number
of human
>races at 46 and others put them at 49 (Explanation: There is a grey
area. Some
>races are partially interfertile and just how partial it has to be to
classify a
>race as hominid instead of human differs from authority to authority).
And it
>gives a convenient way to pigeonhole those MHRs that are not
interfertile with
>the rest of humanity.
>
>[*] For some reason there are not all that many of them. Somewhere
between 6 and
> 12 would be my suggestion.
What you are talking about are those that have deverged so far as to
become a seperate species, they are now Homo
"something-other-than-sapiens", these may or may not be interfertile,
but if interfertile then it could be like the horse and donkey, able to
create infertile offspring.
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 23:19:44 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Sapiens
Jeffrey wrote:
>Are there any canon references as to why all human species are
H.Sapiens?
Traveller Alien Module 6 pg. 2
Graphic showing Homo sapiens (-500,000 to --200,000) with sub-species
developing from them.
The first 2 secions (about 1/2 page of text)
All human races as well as Neanderthal and Cro-magnon are listed as
subspecies.
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:59:01 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Humans, Sapiens et al
As the only person I know that has actually created a race that is close to
not being interfertile, I thought I should comment here.
GURPS Traveller (p38)
"Humans: Intelligent major race dominating the Imperium...
...Most branches of Humaniti are interfertile, although some of the more
extreme variants are not. For taxonomic purposes, all are included in the
family Homoinoidae, and the vast majority are genus Homo. Solomani and
Vilani are H. sapiens sapiens, Zhodani are H. sapiens zhdotlas".
So, while CT does imply that all the Ancients transplantees became
subspecies (though I don't think it was ever explicitly stated); it would
appear that at least in GT this has been abandoned. Further, I think it also
clearly states that in Traveller useage, the terms "Human" and "Humaniti"
includes all the family Homoinoidae (which sort of knocks Han's Homonid
Minor Races on the head, more's the pity).
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 21:41:58 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
I'm in San Jose, and there's a bunch more TML'ers in SF. See Doug's post
regarding the Trav in SF mailing list :)
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 1:09 PM
> To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
>
>
> Well i like Johns stripes however I would like to give him an
> oportunity to
> finish his work.
>
> but for color would like it to match the logo. whether it is Marks or
> John's. Other wise im cool with anything 8P
>
> I am really really appreciative with the help you 3 are giving me.
>
> If any of you live in the SF area let me know there is a dinner in it for
> you 8)
>
> Hasta
>
> Bill
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jesse Degraff [mailto:jedegraf@cisco.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 12:36 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
>
>
> What color ya' want the stripes :)
> Jesse
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
> > Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 10:58 AM
> > To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> > Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
> >
> >
> > WOW
> >
> > I love it.
> >
> > I really do. much better than what i envisioned. I think this
> is a winner.
> > let me know what i owe you 8P
> >
> > now to talk to jesse 8)
> >
> > then to find a website 8P
> >
> > Woot we are moving along. 8)
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mark F. Cook [mailto:markc@peak.org]
> > Sent: Saturday, March 03, 2001 8:44 PM
> > To: Traveller Mail List
> > Subject: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
> >
> >
> > OK, Bill. Here's my 2nd pass as a piece of nose-art for your Beowulf.
> >
> > http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/ship_logo/
> >
> > - Mark C.
> >
> > mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
> > 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
> > Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax:
> 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 22:09:15 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Unfortunatly, GT is self conflicting.
GT Rim of Fire states on page 39:
"A biologist's definition rewuires that different species cannot
successfully breed with each other, but all known Human subspecies are at
least somewhat interfertile. To be sure, some combinations are rare, or
require medical intervention to bring about."
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Andrew
Moffatt-Vallance
Sent: Monday, March 05, 2001 9:59 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Humans, Sapiens et al
As the only person I know that has actually created a race that is close to
not being interfertile, I thought I should comment here.
GURPS Traveller (p38)
"Humans: Intelligent major race dominating the Imperium...
...Most branches of Humaniti are interfertile, although some of the more
extreme variants are not. For taxonomic purposes, all are included in the
family Homoinoidae, and the vast majority are genus Homo. Solomani and
Vilani are H. sapiens sapiens, Zhodani are H. sapiens zhdotlas".
So, while CT does imply that all the Ancients transplantees became
subspecies (though I don't think it was ever explicitly stated); it would
appear that at least in GT this has been abandoned. Further, I think it also
clearly states that in Traveller useage, the terms "Human" and "Humaniti"
includes all the family Homoinoidae (which sort of knocks Han's Homonid
Minor Races on the head, more's the pity).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:20:57 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Bruce Johnson writes:
> > None of the admins here will touch a HP-UX box with a ten foot bargepole,
> > unless there's a primed C4 charge on the end of it.
> HP-UX isn't quite that bad. The real problem is that you should never touch
> Unix windowing systems with a 10' pole.
With my meager experience in different flavors of UNIX(r) I agree
wholeheartedly with people who say that Packard should have had his name
first.
This would create a more appropriate acronym for their UNIX(r) system...
(Might be that HUT administration does not use as much effort with PH-UX
than with other UNICEN here, but still... give me debian Linux, please.
B-(
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3770
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3771
Date: | 3/6/01 7:20:17 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, March 6 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3771
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Re: Sapiens
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
RE: License To Program
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
RE: Traveller software project
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
RE: Traveller software project
RE: Astrogation design
RE: Astrogation design
RE: sapiens
RE: sapiens
RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:04:32 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
On 5 Mar 2001, at 22:09, Jeff wrote:
> Unfortunatly, GT is self conflicting.
> GT Rim of Fire states on page 39:
> "A biologist's definition rewuires that different species cannot
> successfully breed with each other, but all known Human subspecies are at
> least somewhat interfertile. To be sure, some combinations are rare, or
> require medical intervention to bring about."
This in itself is not entirely contradictory. The keyword here is "somewhat".
Horses and Donkeys (undeniably seperate species by any definition) are
"somewhat" interfertile even with purely natural conception (it is extremely
rare but not unheard of for *fertile* mules to be born). Add in advanced
(early stellar+) medical intervention and RoF does not actually contradict
GT.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 20:37:58 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Rob Davenport wrote :-
> My question about the device in the article is - if it crushes the
> can, it's pretty much a one-shot deal, no?
Yes.
Consider it an ignition system for the fusion reactor.
There is now a good reason to leave the reactor idling on primitive worlds
or in other wilderness situations.
"Damn! We're out of starter cartridges."
Anthony Jackson wrote :-
> It's possibly a power storage mechanism if antimatter production
> could be made a _lot_ more efficient.
This is essentially what Bob Forward wrote.
> Factor of 10 isn't a very interesting improvement. 10 orders of
> magnitude would probably be sufficient for useful antimatter
> production.
6-8 orders of magnitude look doable in the near term (Forward, 1995).
hal@buffnet.net wrote :-
> The only thing that GURPS disagrees with him on is the storage
> container aspect.
All that GURPS Vehicles states is that antimatter fuel bays don't require
power (G:V2e p.90). Is this what you're talking about?
Given that the desired storage temperature for antihydrogen seems to be on
the order of 2 Kelvin, I think power consumption has been omitted for ease
of in-game housekeeping rather than D. Pulver knowing more about the subject
than R. Forward.
<giggle, snort>
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 02:13:36 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise
"Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
> The issue is not if we can give different names to the other human
> races. The question is why there are not more significant
> morphological and genetic differences between the human races.
Well, there are ones like the Suerrat (picture in DGP's WBH and
described by me in one of the T4 issues of JTAS) [wow, can I use
more acronyms in one sentence] Anyway, they have large eyes
(which makes sense, they evolved for 300,000 years under a dim
red M0 star) are exceedingly hairy/furry and have long arms that
look capable of brachiation. They might be interfertile with Terran-
evolved humans (heck, chimps are close to being interfertile with
modern humans), but that doesn't mean they aren't quite different.
At minimum, any minor human race that evolved for 300K years
under a radically different type of star will have vision that is at least
somewhat different from Terran vision. Even the Darrians have far
more difference between themselves and us and any modern
Terran race does with each other and Compared to some of the
others that have been described in various Traveller products, the
Darrians are very human.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 02:28:24 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
"Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
> Unfortunatly, GT is self conflicting.
>
> GT Rim of Fire states on page 39:
> "A biologist's definition rewuires that different species cannot
> successfully breed with each other, but all known Human subspecies are
> at least somewhat interfertile. To be sure, some combinations are
> rare, or require medical intervention to bring about."
Except that the "require medical intervention clause" could easily
mean that they are as interfertile as horses and donkeys, or even
as non (but almost) interfertile as chimps and humans. Clearly all
of them are far more closely related than any hominid is to any
other sentient species. However, given the medical intervention
clause we could easily be talking about very close but actually
separate species who have been defined as the same species for
purely socio-political purposes.
Also, remember that one set of current evidence strongly indicates
that modern humans and neanderthals could and did interbreed.
Given that, we honestly have no idea how many of our other
hominid ancestors we could interbreed with.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:54:30 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: Sapiens
Now *that's* hand-waving! :-)
- - Rob.
On Tuesday, March 6, 2001, at 12:17 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > Regardless of when our species evolved in the real world, in the Traveller
> > universe it existed three hundred thousand years ago.
>
> It just means we haven't found the -300K BP evidence yet.
- --
JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/
Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,
Edition en Anglais.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:04:43 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Russell Bornschlegel wrote :
> Frank Pitt wrote:
> > Russell Bornschlegel wrote :
> >
> > <snip>
> > > While licensing of programmers might be a good thing for a few
> > > life-critical sorts of applications -- air traffic control, computer
> > > assisted brain surgery, nuclear power plants -- I don't see what
> > > harm can be done by writing buggy programs in the privacy of one's
> > > own home.
> >
> > Melissa, Anna Kournikova.....
>
> Touche', but it's not as if a licensed programmer couldn't write a
> virus. Unless you're in support of licensing individual copies of
> compilers to make it impossible to write a program without its
> authorship being traced, which has frightening implications for
> privacy and free speech, in my opinion -- and I'm not even a big
> Open Source/Free Software Zealot (a sympathizer, perhaps, to some
> extent, but not a zealot).
No, that wouldn't work anyway, it would be hacked as soon as it was
released.
Or we'd all write code with compilers licensed to Bill Gates.
But a professional programmer who could be shown to have written (and
released) a virus could be barred from working againm, in the same way
unprofessional behaviour from doctors and lawyers can result in them being
barred.
> > I would doubt it. BASIC is a great language, it's much better
> > than Visual Basic.
>
> Doesn't VB have reasonable things like parametrized subroutines and
> named labels in it? What makes BASIC "great" and better than VB,
> in your opinion?
Actually, I was being a bit tongue in cheek, but the thing about plain BASIC
is that for it's time it was a good teaching language because it was simple,
and provided a good introduction
to C and assembler.
Also it doesn't have all the annnoying idiosyncracies that VB added to it.
Imagine you have a hammer. Now hammers are nice and simple for some jobs,
and no good for others.
Now along comes a vendor and turns your hammer into a hammer with several
swiss army knife attachements on it. But these attachements are so awkwardly
placed that it is now very difficult to use it as a hammer, because the
attachments keep getting between you and the nail, and the attachments
because, they are attached to hammer, rather than a swiss army knife, are
also much harder to use.
That's the sort of feeling I get when trying to use VB.
Then again, I still program using vi, and hate all GUI IDE's even though I
have been developing GUI interfaces for the last ten years. I can write a
screen design in vi quicker than people can lay one out with a GUI IDE, and
it will have better functionality, because it will resize properly as well.
> The industry doesn't give a flying rat's ass about best development
> practices.
I disagree.
These days if you're not ISO9002 accredited and at least CMM level 2, you
stand very little chance of getting a major project. At least, that's true
in the areas where I'm working anyway.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 23:42:35 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: License To Program
Terry Carlino wrote :
> It is amazing to me the arrogance of some people. Insisting that someone
> must learn about memory management, pointers or any other low level
> architecture in today's computing environment is like insisting that a
> carpenter must be able to make his own tools, or an electrician
> must be able to manufacture his own wire.
>
> I've been programming for twenty years. I've written in
> assembler, and used everything from Fortran to COBOL to
> Basic, not to mention Forth, tcl, Motif, etc.
>
> Now I'm primarily a user and my opinion is that most of my problems result
> from the inability of "professional" programmers to do what's really
> important to rolling out usable software. That's DOCUMENTATION!
> Documentation, help files, user guides, user oriented (as opposed to
> programmer oriented) interfaces, documented code, and use of unsuitable
> tools (you know, like using c to make a GUI.)
Programmers are not supposed to do that work, that's what document
specialists are for.
Also, user-oriented interfaces do exist, and the science of usability is
something that is heavily emphasised by professional development
organizations. However, again, it is not the programmer's responsibility to
do this, it is up to the usability experts and the testing organization to
drive this.
Basically, any organization that is not employing documentation
professionals and usability experts is not a professional organization.
The majority of user interfaces are far better now than they were in the
sixties, and they will get better.
> To say that "best development practices" haven't fundamentally changed in
> twenty or more years shows a basic lack of appreciation for the
> differences between 8-bit and 64-bit architecture, cheap memory and
expensive memory,
> cheap storage and expensive storage.
I disagree.
You only mentioned changes in hardware, hardware merely changes the
development parameters.
Best development pratices _are_ still the same.
Heck, CMM has been out for over ten years, and there are still lots of shops
that don't adhere to it, and CMM is merely an amalgamation of the previous
twenty years of experience.
The problem is that it takes twenty years for a "best practice" to be picked
up by the majority of developers.
> Insisting that a programmer use a
> klutzy first or second generation language "because they'll have a better
> appreciation of how the system actually works" smacks of elitism. (Surely
> something programmers have never been accused of.)
I agree and disagree. I agree there is no need to teach modern programmers
older languages, but I don't agree it's elitism. It's merely an opinon.
I've always felt I'm a good programmer partially because I understand how
the whole machine works, from the physics of semiconductors up through the
digital circuits, the OS, etc.
But then I've met some good programmers who didn't know all that, so for
some people it's bviously not neccessarily.
> p.s. equating lines of code (LOC) to program usefulness is a facetious
> measurement. A single line of tcl can equate to dozens of lines of Motif,
> let alone C or C++. Sometimes the only thing more LOC indicate is that the
> programmer has made a bad choice of implementation language.
<grin>
My first job as a C++ Programmer involved me steadily reducing the
application's LOC for the first three months I worked on it !
A high LOC usually means that your being paid or evaluated on a LOC basis.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 00:11:08 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
> I won't have a chance to look at Jade for about another four hours, but
> please don't let people start with Java (or any other garbage-collected
> language, for that matter). It's absolutely dire what languages like
> that, and other features that pick up the programmer's mess for him, can
> do to the skill set of a beginner.
I disagree completely.
Its not the programmer's mess, its the language's mess.
Java enforces some good programming skills.
If a person ever has to program in an older language such as C, they should
be trained for that then.
The point is to get good programming practices ingrained first, and _then_
move onto the
hard stuff.
> If they intend to program seriously in the future, they should start
> with C, so that they understand how things like memory-management and
> pointers *really* work, before they're given the tools that hide them
> behind the scenes. Or better yet, assembler.
Pointers are something that should not be worried about in modern
programming at all.
If I was writing in C now, the first thing I would do would be to implement
smart memory management , and then make sure nothing in the program used
anything but that. You do this by replacing the compiler's implementation of
alloc, malloc, and calloc., and the implementation of free, if your compiler
is not already smart enough to do this for you.
Either that or I'd invest in a tool such as Purify. My time is too expensive
to waste on either programming so defensively I completely avoid such errors
or to muck around finding the errors afterwards.
Assembly is something that that should never be used by a modern programmer,
except in very limited areas, such as very small embedded devices (ones that
can't be programmed in Java or C++ ) and when you're after the last ounce of
speed, such as in a 3D-engine. So only the few people who work in those ares
need to know it.
It's like microcode, who programs in microcode? Only those that are
implementing chips.
Would you suggest beginning programmers are taught Microcode?
It's the same with Assembler.
BTW, pointers and memory management are _only_ relevant when dealing with
languages that have such concepts. Only the C family languages have this,
there are a lot of languages out there that do not have such concepts, or
like Java, manage them for you.
You can go an entire career without ever using anything that forces the
programmer to handle memory management, in fact there are machine
architectures that _prevent_ the programmer from doing so (effectively you
_can't_ program in C on these architectures without running it in a VM).
Beginners should never be taught C or assembly language.
That would be almost as bad as learning on VB.
<grin>
> Anything else, and you produce people who don't have an appreciation for
> how the system actually works; rather, they're stuck with magic-boxism
> and when the underlying system comes back at them, they're lost at sea.
> And the poor bastard who has to clean up the ensuing mess is *really*
> screwed.
That just implies that the conmpany employing them is stupid.
If you let people program C or assembler without training them, you get what
you've paid for.
Same goes for any language for that matter.
And it's easy to find pointer errors anyway, that what tools like Purify are
for. If you haven't got such tools, write them yourself, it's not dificult
and it's more efficient than hunting pointer errors by hand.
It's far more important that programmers are taught good generic programming
practices than that they are taught the foibles of specific archaic
languages such as C.
BTW, although I can program in C, I haven't done so professionally since
1993, no-one in the areas I've been working is still using it (I'm working
mainly for major telecommunications companies and web-based stuff), they are
at least using C++, and every C++ project I've worked on has used some form
of smart memory management that protected programmers from pointer errors.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 22:12:54 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project
Anthony Jackson
> Rupert Boleyn writes:
>
> > Yep. They had an 'out of memory' error the other day. First he
> > gave it another 4gigs (as far as anyone could tell it shouldn't
> > have been out of memory). Nothing. Gave it another 10gigs.
> > Nothing. Gave it another 40gigs.
> > Went fine, and they even got some of it back.
>
> My favorite oracle story was trying to install 8i (I think) and
> discovering that the java-based installer wouldn't run with less
> than 512MB of memory and a gig of swap...
At least it makes sure you can't install it on an under-specced machine.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:47:52 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
[On programming languages and teaching them.]
On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Frank G. Pitt wrote:
[snip much stuff, point here is pointers and memory management]
> Either that or I'd invest in a tool such as Purify. My time is too expensive
> to waste on either programming so defensively I completely avoid such errors
> or to muck around finding the errors afterwards.
<tongue-in-cheek>
Purify or these other measures (wrapping memory management in your own
routines) are completely irrevelant.
Real programmers write correct code when they first write it - so, no need
for cumbersome carbage collection and such stuff.
</tongue-in-cheek>
> Assembly is something that that should never be used by a modern programmer,
> except in very limited areas, such as very small embedded devices (ones that
> can't be programmed in Java or C++ ) and when you're after the last ounce of
> speed, such as in a 3D-engine. So only the few people who work in those ares
> need to know it.
I think that knowing some assembly is mandatory for being a good
programmer. Being a computer science minor in an university, this might be
somewhat biased opinion, but still, I consider the knowledge of the
machine beneath the HLL essential.
Not that people without assembly knowledge couldn't program, and the
assembly languages change with processors, but they do still have many
things in common.
At least this could teach the fledgling programmers that TANSTAAFL...
even with carbage collection.
> Beginners should never be taught C or assembly language.
> That would be almost as bad as learning on VB.
I am more and more inclined towards Scheme as the first programming
language (yes, 'Structure and interpretation of computer programs' has
influenced me). Java has much too much bells and whistles for the
beginner.
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:58:00 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
On Tuesday, March 6, 2001, at 11:47 AM, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:
> I think that knowing some assembly is mandatory for being a good
> programmer. Being a computer science minor in an university, this might be
> somewhat biased opinion, but still, I consider the knowledge of the
> machine beneath the HLL essential.
I'm torn on this. I 'd disagree were it not for the fact that my first contract (1996) had some assembler in it. Knowing the principles is important, but learning assembler is like translating Beowulf on English courses.
> I am more and more inclined towards Scheme as the first programming
> language (yes, 'Structure and interpretation of computer programs' has
> influenced me).
Lisp is the Sanskrit of the computing world. Designed by the high priests to look profound and keep out heathens.
> Java has much too much bells and whistles for the
> beginner.
It never used to. Inner classes: nooooooo! :-(
ObTrav: Yes, you have Computer - 3. Now, this local computer looks simple, but you need to figure out the language. You do have Linguistics - 1+, don't you? What do you mean every computer uses Vilin (the standard Vilani Instruction set)? Didn't you stay awake for the "other languages" section of the course? Oh dear...
- - Rob.
- --
Rob Myers - http://www.robmyers.org/dylan
"The idea behind Dylan-to offer a range of dynamism appropriate to each piece of an application-feels right, and after using Dylan you will become frustrated with C++ and Java." - Software Development Magazine.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:11:18 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller software project
Mark Preston wrote:
> Peter, did you make sure to get the patched version of InterBase? The
> one covering the security hole announced a couple of weeks ago? If
> not, swap to mySQL for now (I'm advising my clients to do the same,
> BTW) and switch back later when the patch is in.
*Now* you tell me! <grin> Status so far, I've downloaded
InterBase 6.01 (including the 10Mb documentation) ... on a 56K
modem running at 44K ... and installed it. Then figured out out
to create a database (I'm a programmer, not a DBA ... will need a
"Dummy's Guide" set of instructions for non, er, cyberheads).
Then recreated the basic table structure I had in my Access
database in InterBase via an SQL script (very basic, no
constraints or anything yet). Ran out of time to go further due
to RL activities.
As for mySQL ... it shouldn't matter. As long as the database
(mySQL, InterBase, Oracle, whatever floats yer boat) as SQL
compliant, and on Windows is ODBC compliant (other platforms use
whatever the equvalent) then it shouldn't matter what technology
you use. The requirement for a 'free' database technology was
just so people didn't have to shell out money for a database to
support free software.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 20:25:18 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Astrogation design
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Paul Campbell
> Sent: 04 March 2001 15:29
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Astrogation design
>
[snip]
>
> The root objects in my design were to be Universe objects, allowing
> multiple meilieus to be stored in the same DB. Similar to
> Galactic's
> ability.
>
Check out the XML document example I posted - it allows sectors
(that's all I've sent so far) to be defined with different data for
your different "universes". Simplifies the data transport since you
use the same base data for all of them and just get the data you need
for the "universe" you are dealing with. It also allows - because of
that - the use of house rules and locally run campaign data.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 13:30:46 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Astrogation design
Paul Campbell wrote:
<snip>
My original Access DB (now converted into InterBase/SQL) had
Sector Table (key = sector id)
sector id char(2)
name varchar(50)
x position integer <-- in sectors relative to 3I core sector
y position integer <-- in sectors relative to 3I core sector
Subsector Table (key = sector id + subsector id)
sector id char(2)
subsector id char(1)
name varchar(50)
Subsector Position Table (key = subsector id)
subsector id char(1)
x position integer <-- value 1-4
y position integer <-- value 1-4
System Table (key = sector id + subsector id + subsector hex)
sector id char(2)
subsector id char(1)
subsector hex char(4)
name varchar(50)
... other attributes including UWP
Border Table (key = sector id + subsector id + subsector hex)
sector id char(2)
subsector id char(1)
subsector hex char(4)
alignment char(2)
x position integer <-- not normalised but needed for performance
y position integer <-- " " " " " "
Star Table (key = sector id + subsector id + subsector hex + star id)
sector id char(2)
subsector id char(1)
subsector hex char(4)
star id integer
... other attributes
Hex Position Table (key = subsector id + subsector hex)
subsector id char(1)
subsector hex char(4)
system hex char(4)
I had multiple DBs for multiple mileus. I hadn't gotten as far
as the planets and moons level yet. A border table record (table
row) does not exist for 'Na' hexes.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 09:59:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: sapiens
Jeff writes:
>Despite how it may seem, I am *not* trying to be difficult. I am only a lay
>man.
<snipped>
No problem. I hope that I am not being to "preachy," I hold a
PhD in evolutionary biology.
>>Rates of speciation can be extremely variable.
>Hmm. Sounds reasonable. However, a four hundred thousand year period
>saw the rise (and in some cases, fall) of archaic H.sapiens, H.sapiens
>neanderthalis, and H.sapiens. Three (possibly more, given the vagueness of
>the archaic H.sapiens status) is a pretty good rate of change, especially
>when compared with the fruitflies. (I would assume it takes less to speciate
>with less complex animals, though this would only be a bald assumption.)
These are all subspecies, not (as far as we can tell) species.
Currently we think that no new species have evolved in the
hominid lineage in the past 300,000 years. So the fruitflies
have us beat cold.
Actually, there is no reason to think that "less complex"
animals require less time to speciate, but those with short
generation times certainly may evolve into new species
faster.
>>"The bottom line is that 300,000 years ago, "H.erectus" and
>>"H.sapeins" may have beed the same people. . ."
>Again, I would have to admit the validity of this statement. However, this
>is because the H.sapiens of 300,000 years ago were not modern humans. I do
>not believe it stands to reason that all populations of H.sapiens naturally
>evolved into modern humans, given the conditions of ancient intervention.
>(Assuming no genetic manipulation.)
I think that nobody is suggesting that all populations of H.
sapiens have evolved into modern humans. In this sense,
for example, the Zhodani are not "modern humans" (that
is, not H. sapiens sapiens). Rather they are (to borrow
from Hans) H. sapiens zhodotlas.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:10:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: sapiens
Jeff writes:
>>"Well, that is zero new species in that time period. Almost certainly most
>>minor human races are new subspecies."
>What do you mean? H.sapiens (archaic) arouse specifically during that
>period, and is certianly a (or a combination of) differnt species then
>H.erectus.
Well, it is not really certain that H. erectus, especially H.
erectus from 300,000 YA, could not interbreed successfully
with folks alive today.
>Furthermore, the variation between H.sapiens neanderthalis and
>H.sapiens sapiens is far greater then is witnessed among the human
>popultions in traveller. (Generally speaking)
That may be so, though it has been argued that a
neanderthal in jeans and a jacket might pass for an
ugly citizen on the subway.
>"Not sure anyone's claiming they did."
>No, they did not. However, implicit in the neglection of such a claim leaves
>my initial question. Why do we not see more variation?
I think that what it comes down to is that there might
be more variation, but there might not. Certainly on
worlds with substantially different conditions (different
gravity, star type, atmospheric density) we could
argue that more divergent evolution has taken place,
but not necessarily speciation.
Of course, let's not forget that this is Traveller, a game.
Sure it is "harder" SF than some games, but it still has
some soft spots. :)
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:18:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
<snipped>
>>Yeah, I was right. Anatomically modern sapiens did not emerge until roughly
>>120,000 B.C. That leaves more than two hundred thousand years between the
>>ancients arrival and the evolution of modern Homo Sapiens.
>No. The archaic Homo sapiens (_Homo sapiens antiquitus_ as I call them) left
>behind on Earth evolved into _Homo sapiens sapiens_. The ones taken to Zhdant
>evolved into _Homo sapiens zhodotlas_. The ones take to Darryen evolved into
>_Homo sapiens darriensis_[*]. The ones taken to Vland evolved into _Homo
>sapiens bilandin_[*]. Etc. They all evolved into different subspecies. That's
>not the problem. The problem is that early canon sources implies that none of
>these subspecies diverged enough to become separate species. Unfortunately
>later Traveller authors forgot that and introduced some that were separate
>species.
>[*] Terms of my own coinage. Anyone with better ideas are welcome to suggest
>them.
Excellent. I move that we accept Hans' taxonomy!
"archaic" humans: _Homo sapiens antiquitus_
"modern" Terran (Solomani) humans: _Homo sapiens sapiens_
"modern" Zhodani humans: _Homo sapiens zhodotlas_
"modern" Daryan humans: _Homo sapiens darriensis_
"modern" Vilani humans: _Homo sapiens bilandin_
All the same species, different subspecies or races, as you prefer.
Peez
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3771
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3772
Date: | 3/6/01 10:36:50 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, March 6 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3772
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Sapiens
RE: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)
RE: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
The Core Route project has moved.
RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
RE: sapiens
RE: Sapiens
RE: sapiens
RE: sapiens
RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
RE: sapiens
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:27:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Sapiens
Hans Rancke-Madsen writes:
<snipped>
>Ian Ferguson writes:
>>Probably the best known definition of a species is the biological species
>>concept: "Species are groups of actually or potentially interbreeding
>>populations that are reproductively isolated from other such groups."
>The definition used by the Traveller canon is set forth in _Solomani_. I don't
>have an exact quote here, but it basically uses the one about interfertility
>(and ignores the grey areas).
I wasn't aware that canon had addressed this issue, but those
grey areas are where I would expect that at least some human
"races" would fall.
>>It should be kept in mind that this is not the only definition, and there are
>>some problems with it. How do you classify species in which there is no
>>sexual reproduction?
>Not really a problem when talking about hominid species.
True of that particular case. My intent was to demonstrate
that the concept of species is not restricted to the biological
species concept.
>>Hominid refers to H. sapiens along with its recent ancestors (back to the
>>Astralopithecines) and close cousins (none of which survive). By the
>>biological species definition, your Hominid "races" would technically be
>>species, but shading the language is nothing new.
>I'm using 'races' the way Traveller canon does. Evidently the usage has changed
>over the4 years.
<snipped>
I am not all that familiar with much of the Traveller canon, but
isn't it canon that the 'races' in that canon are interfertile?
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:36:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)
Jeff writes:
>The fact that Neanderthal man does not arise until after the decline of
>archaic homo sapiens is a good indication of the possible variations that at
>least some of the dispersed human populations may have taken, as the same
>species is believed to be the last common ancestor of neanderthals and us.
I'm not sure that archaic H. sapiens "declined." Evidence
suggests that they continued to evolve, into H. sapiens
neanderthalis and H. sapiens sapiens (or something like
that, the actual lineage is still contoversial).
>As to your given reasons for why only archaic homo sapiens (very good ones,
>btw) there still exists issues.
>1) If the ancients found canines worth their time, you would think they
>would give other hominids a chance. Not that the canines don't have worth
>while advantages the ancients would want, but I see no reason why they would
>ignore H.erectus, a very successful species in the hominid line.
<snipped>
Not being Ancients ourselves, it is hard to understand their
motivations, but one could assume that they chose a few
species that appeared to be optimal for each of their
purposes. That being said, they did not necessarily
ignore H. erectus: at that time H. erectus and H. sapiens
may have been the same species (c.f. my commentary
on chronospecies).
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:49:29 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: RE: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)
Genetic instability/mutability may also have been a factor. That and the Ancients may have had a sense of humour...
- - Rob.
On Tuesday, March 6, 2001, at 02:36 PM, Ian Ferguson wrote:
> Jeff writes:
> >1) If the ancients found canines worth their time, you would think they
> >would give other hominids a chance. Not that the canines don't have worth
> >while advantages the ancients would want, but I see no reason why they would
> >ignore H.erectus, a very successful species in the hominid line.
> <snipped>
>
> Not being Ancients ourselves, it is hard to understand their
> motivations, but one could assume that they chose a few
> species that appeared to be optimal for each of their
> purposes. That being said, they did not necessarily
> ignore H. erectus: at that time H. erectus and H. sapiens
> may have been the same species (c.f. my commentary
> on chronospecies).
- --
JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/
Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,
Edition en Anglais.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:53:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance writes:
<snipped>
>Further, I think it also
>clearly states that in Traveller useage, the terms "Human" and "Humaniti"
>includes all the family Homoinoidae (which sort of knocks Han's Homonid
>Minor Races on the head, more's the pity).
I'm not sure about "Homoinoidae" (typo?), but the
taxonomy that I am familiar with is:
Superfamily Hominoidea
Family Hylobatidae (gibbons)
Family Hominidae
Subfamily Ponginae (orangutans)
Subfamily Homininae
Genus Gorilla (gorillas)
Genus Pan (chimpanzees)
Genus Australopithecus (extinct
humanoids)
Genus Homo
Homo habilis
Homo erectus
Homo sapiens (humans)
insert Hans'
subspecies here
Members of the subfamily Homininae are refered to as Hominoids,
while Hominids are members of the geni Australopithecus and Homo.
There are variations on this taxonomy, so don't take it as gospel.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 07:07:17 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
"Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org> wrote
> >On 2 Mar 01, at 16:35, Peter Newman wrote:
> > > I'm sure that the mass market Imperial beers would be dehydrated
> > > at the factory and then reconcentrated with water at the factory.
> > > They'd probably taste like it too.
> >
> >With the cost of transportation being so much, if local ingredients
> >(or materials for things other than beer) can be found/made, wouldn't
> >it be more likely to have franchises that distribute the Secret
> >Formulae around? At least as the scale gets beyond a sector or so.
I just don't see that as too likely given how much air pressure,
atmospheric conditions, gravity, etc will influence all this.
To get uniform booze (not necessarily good booze) but uniform
booze you need uniform conditions. I see this as being easier with
concentrate. YMMV.
> Rob, read the sidebar about "Brubek's" in "GT: Starports", page 86. You'll
> note that it (Brubek's) is an Imperium-wide chain and they ship their beer
> as a stable concentrate, to be reconstituted on site. Now, I not saying that
> what you describe isn't done, but it would seem that the alternative method
> is canon,
1) GURPS Traveller is _not_ canon, it is a variant. Note that I
am not saying it's not good.
2) I was referring more to booze you buy in a store and take home
rather than booze you buy in a bar and drink their. 'Tap' drinks
may well be different from 'bottled' drinks.
> at least for the largest chain of that type in the Imperium.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:29:57 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
On 6 Mar 2001, at 7:07, Peter Newman wrote:
> > >With the cost of transportation being so much, if local ingredients
> > >(or materials for things other than beer) can be found/made, wouldn't
> > >it be more likely to have franchises that distribute the Secret
> > >Formulae around? At least as the scale gets beyond a sector or so.
>
> I just don't see that as too likely given how much air pressure,
> atmospheric conditions, gravity, etc will influence all this.
> To get uniform booze (not necessarily good booze) but uniform
> booze you need uniform conditions. I see this as being easier with
> concentrate. YMMV.
Sorry - I didn't make myself clear - I meant the concentrate form as
opposed to distributing the recipe. I agree with you, if you ship
physical materials, a concentrate would be more economical than the
full brew. And the transportation might have adverse affects on the
product (although I wonder about the taste of a "Jumpspace Stout"...).
Rob D.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:39:04 +0000
From: Rob Myers <robm@h2g2.com>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
An interstellar empire founded on commerce will know the value of good branding. Product fetishism is a good way of ensuring brand loyalty.
"Yeah, you could buy some of that local swarf, or we can reconstitute you some official IISS brew, all the way from Sylea. This is the real stuff!"
Distributing concentrates also keeps recipes/production methods secret. See Coke. IIRC the only people outside of Coke who know the recipe are the Israeli high rabbinical types, who declared it kosher. I'm sure you can get an ObTrav or two from this. :-)
- - Rob.
On Tuesday, March 6, 2001, at 04:29 PM, Rob Davenport wrote:
> Sorry - I didn't make myself clear - I meant the concentrate form as
> opposed to distributing the recipe. I agree with you, if you ship
> physical materials, a concentrate would be more economical than the
> full brew. And the transportation might have adverse affects on the
> product (although I wonder about the taste of a "Jumpspace Stout"...).
- --
JIEX - http://www.robmyers.org/jiex/
Journal de l'Institut des Etudes Xenologiques,
Edition en Anglais.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:06:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Robert O'Connor writes:
> Given that the desired storage temperature for antihydrogen seems to be on
> the order of 2 Kelvin, I think power consumption has been omitted for ease
> of in-game housekeeping rather than D. Pulver knowing more about the
> subject than R. Forward.
Also, I think its assumed that devices which can't afford to ever have a power
failure include dedicated power sources to make sure they don't.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:09:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Mikko V. I. Parviainen writes:
> On Mon, 5 Mar 2001, Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > Bruce Johnson writes:
> > > None of the admins here will touch a HP-UX box with a ten foot
> > > bargepole, unless there's a primed C4 charge on the end of it.
> > HP-UX isn't quite that bad. The real problem is that you should never
> > touch Unix windowing systems with a 10' pole.
>
> With my meager experience in different flavors of UNIX(r) I agree
> wholeheartedly with people who say that Packard should have had his name
> first.
Hm...I tend to reserve my personal malice for AIX, with their insistence on
doing everything just a little bit differently. I'm generally tolerant of
solaris, linux, and digital unix, and I haven't used IRIX.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 17:15:46 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Rob Myers wrote:
> An interstellar empire founded on commerce will know the
> value of good branding. Product fetishism is a good way of
> ensuring brand loyalty.
> "Yeah, you could buy some of that local swarf, or we can
> reconstitute you some official IISS brew, all the way from
> Sylea. This is the real stuff!"
>
> Distributing concentrates also keeps recipes/production
> methods secret. See Coke. IIRC the only people outside of
> Coke who know the recipe are the Israeli high rabbinical
> types, who declared it kosher. I'm sure you can get an ObTrav
> or two from this. :-)
Budweisser bought in Europe is actually brewed in Europe (printed
very small on the ads). And that's on the same planet.
Meanwhile, there was an incident recently that highlighted
something: A diabetic died recently after drinking a can of
Pepsi Max. Pepsi Max in the UK is made with neutrasweet, but
this can was bought on the grey market from Canada ... Pepsi Max
in Canada is made with sugar.
I think it unlikely that Sylean beer would be shipped all the way
to the frontier (even in concentrate form). More likely that the
recipe would be sent (by courier) to subsidiary brewing
companies.
Small amounts of novelty items get shipped, large amounts of mass
market items get produced locally under licence.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 09:40:11 -0800
From: clifford n linehan <cnl.rubicon@juno.com>
Subject: The Core Route project has moved.
Greetings All,
On March 01, 2001 the Homepage.com, a free web page provider, issued
notice that all service to its free hosted web pages will be discontinued
as of March 31, 2001.
Over the past few days I have transfered the Core Route Project to its
new home.
Traveller Core Route http://www.geocities.com/traveller_core_route
Thanks for your time,
Clifford Linehan - cnl.rubicon@juno.com
http://www.geocities.com/traveller_core_route
Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 12:53:17 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
>Budweisser bought in Europe is actually brewed in Europe (printed
>very small on the ads). And that's on the same planet.
And Budweiser in Canada is brewed in Canada, and makes a big deal of it.
American beer has such a bad reputation in Canada that Bud's ad tagline is
"Brewed in Canada to Canadian Strength" or something along those lines.
They don't seem to realize that the facts of the matter are irrelevant now.
Hatred for American beer has become a cultural icon idée fixe; they could
get Claudia Schiffer to serve it personally and it would make little
difference at this point....
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:13:58 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
>Given that the desired storage temperature for antihydrogen seems to be on
>the order of 2 Kelvin, I think power consumption has been omitted for ease
>of in-game housekeeping rather than D. Pulver knowing more about the subject
>than R. Forward.
>
><giggle, snort>
Hello Robert,
Forward's descriptions of the antimatter containment system by inference
in his story, indicate that the antimatter bunkers do not weight some 25
tons per unit as GURPS VEHICLES has it. GURPS VEHICLES makes the storage
bunkers weigh more per cubic foot than hydrogen fusion containment bottles!
As for David Knowing more than Forward - that is *one* topic I will never
attempt to open my mouth and insert both feet. It is possible that one
person knows more than the other person. Is Forward a trained scientist
who knows more than Pulver? That I can't answer...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:12:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Paul Drye wrote:
> >Budweisser bought in Europe is actually brewed in Europe (printed
> >very small on the ads). And that's on the same planet.
>
> And Budweiser in Canada is brewed in Canada, and makes a big deal of it.
> American beer has such a bad reputation in Canada that Bud's ad tagline is
> "Brewed in Canada to Canadian Strength" or something along those lines.
>
I believe that this is also true of Budweiser brewed in Japan.
Although I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would WANT to
drink "Bad Weiser" beer if they could drink Asahi Super Dry for less
money.
> They don't seem to realize that the facts of the matter are irrelevant now.
> Hatred for American beer has become a cultural icon idée fixe; they could
> get Claudia Schiffer to serve it personally and it would make little
> difference at this point....
This is true, but you know, America earned this reputation.
There are good beers in America NOW, mostly from microbreweries, but when
I was a kid and first began to drink beer, the choices were pretty much:
Budweiser, Miller, Coors, Schaefer, and Generic. (Somewhere, I have a
picture of me, and about 9 other girls aged 17-21, in front of a giant
tower of generic beer cans that we had emptied. What's really scary is
that most of them were compulsive dieters, so it was generic "light" beer.
Something I would never drink if I were paying for it. But I wasn't.)
On top of that, I lived in a 3.2 beer state in my teens. If you've never
experienced the misery that is 3.2 beer, count yourself very, very lucky.
Kiri ^_^
(ps: Why should *I* care if Claudia Schiffer serves it? Now, get Takeshi
Kaneshiro to serve it, and we'll talk. But only if I can drink it out of
his mouth. Preferably naked. Yes, both of us, dammit!)
ObTrav: This has been an edict of:
Her Serene Majesty
Kiri Moriyama-Estigarribia
First Empress of the Second Imperium
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:14:47 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise
True, however nobody would claim that black and white people look differntly
because they are seperate subspecies. We would expect the other subspecies
to have significant differences above that observed among racially seperate
populations. (As a side issue, is it known how long the racial variations
have been developing?)
Jeff Yin
At minimum, any minor human race that evolved for 300K years
under a radically different type of star will have vision that is at least
somewhat different from Terran vision. Even the Darrians have far
more difference between themselves and us and any modern
Terran race does with each other and Compared to some of the
others that have been described in various Traveller products, the
Darrians are very human.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:14:46 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
There again, however, another necessary point has been overlooked. Horses
and Donkeys *are* seperate species. According to GT, all of the human races
are seperated only into subspecies. This would seem to support the inherent
confliction to which I indicate.
Jeff Yin
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Andrew
Moffatt-Vallance
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 1:05 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
On 5 Mar 2001, at 22:09, Jeff wrote:
> Unfortunatly, GT is self conflicting.
> GT Rim of Fire states on page 39:
> "A biologist's definition rewuires that different species cannot
> successfully breed with each other, but all known Human subspecies are at
> least somewhat interfertile. To be sure, some combinations are rare, or
> require medical intervention to bring about."
This in itself is not entirely contradictory. The keyword here is
"somewhat".
Horses and Donkeys (undeniably seperate species by any definition) are
"somewhat" interfertile even with purely natural conception (it is extremely
rare but not unheard of for *fertile* mules to be born). Add in advanced
(early stellar+) medical intervention and RoF does not actually contradict
GT.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:14:48 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Certainly, but that point simply goes further to strengthening my claim of a
GT contradiction.
Jeff Yin
Also, remember that one set of current evidence strongly indicates
that modern humans and neanderthals could and did interbreed.
Given that, we honestly have no idea how many of our other
hominid ancestors we could interbreed with.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:12:35 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
At 11:29 AM 03/06/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Sorry - I didn't make myself clear - I meant the concentrate form as
>opposed to distributing the recipe. I agree with you, if you ship
>physical materials, a concentrate would be more economical than the
>full brew. And the transportation might have adverse affects on the
>product (although I wonder about the taste of a "Jumpspace Stout"...).
http://www.tomsmithonline.com/lyrics/307ale.htm
- --
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!" - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:17:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
hal@buffnet.net writes:
> Hello Robert,
> Forward's descriptions of the antimatter containment system by inference
> in his story, indicate that the antimatter bunkers do not weight some 25
> tons per unit as GURPS VEHICLES has it. GURPS VEHICLES makes the storage
> bunkers weigh more per cubic foot than hydrogen fusion containment bottles!
How dense does forward think antimatter storage can be? Space gives a ratio
of 250,000:1 at TL 9, which is not particularly bad and certainly better than
any modern system.
> As for David Knowing more than Forward - that is *one* topic I will never
> attempt to open my mouth and insert both feet. It is possible that one
> person knows more than the other person. Is Forward a trained scientist
> who knows more than Pulver? That I can't answer...
Forward almost certainly does know more. However, he makes up for it by being
wildly optimistic.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:22:31 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: sapiens
At 09:59 AM 03/06/01 -0400, you wrote:
> These are all subspecies, not (as far as we can tell) species.
> Currently we think that no new species have evolved in the
> hominid lineage in the past 300,000 years. So the fruitflies
> have us beat cold.
See sig. :)
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies. On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets.
- Rich Clancey
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:21:17 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Sapiens
At 08:26 PM 03/05/01 -0800, you wrote:
> Just out of curiosity - what is the oldest non-fossilized set of bones
>ever discovered?
The Jakov mammoth, found intact and fozen in Siberia, is around 20,000
years old. This is the beatie featured on the Discovery Channel.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:24:51 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: sapiens
The issue before was 400,000 years (The "official" values for GT), which
would extend to include archaic H.sapiens. Do the fruit flies show as much
variation among their species as neanderthals and modern man do as
subspecies? I seem to recall that the lines in these kind of things are
pretty blurry, and it would seem that the actual physical and genetic
differences are more significant then taxonomic accuracy.
"These are all subspecies, not (as far as we can tell) species. Currently
we think that no new species have evolved in the
hominid lineage in the past 300,000 years. So the fruitflies have us beat
cold."
"I think that nobody is suggesting that all populations of H.
sapiens have evolved into modern humans. In this sense,
for example, the Zhodani are not "modern humans" (that
is, not H. sapiens sapiens). Rather they are (to borrow
from Hans) H. sapiens zhodotlas."
Then the issue remains as before. In over 300,000 years of seperation, why
are there not more significant changes between the human races? Adding a
zhodotlas to the end of H.sapiens may classify them as a new subspecies,
which I am not taking issue with. But why the lack of physical changes?
Jeff Yin
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:28:50 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: sapiens
"Well, it is not really certain that H. erectus, especially H.
erectus from 300,000 YA, could not interbreed successfully
with folks alive today."
Well, it is possible (as another user has pointed out) to interbreed
seperate species sometimes. I get the feeling that these terms hold a lot of
gray areas.
"That may be so, though it has been argued that a
neanderthal in jeans and a jacket might pass for an
ugly citizen on the subway."
Having ridden a subway, I would agree that a freakish appearence would not
necessarily be an especially consipicous trait.
"I think that what it comes down to is that there might
be more variation, but there might not. Certainly on
worlds with substantially different conditions (different
gravity, star type, atmospheric density) we could
argue that more divergent evolution has taken place,
but not necessarily speciation.
Of course, let's not forget that this is Traveller, a game.
Sure it is "harder" SF than some games, but it still has
some soft spots. :)"
You are probably right, I'm just not smart enough for the gearhead threads.
In the end, then, it would seem reasonable, though not necessarily canon, to
have a human species somewhere continuing the neanderthal line, or even
taking a different route after H.erectus.
Jeff Yin
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:30:21 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
>ps: Why should *I* care if Claudia Schiffer serves it?
Well, broken engagement or not, she could probably get you that hunk David
Copperfield's home phone number....
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:32:26 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: RE: sapiens
Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote:
> Jeff writes:
> >Despite how it may seem, I am *not* trying to be difficult. I am only
> >a lay man.
> <snipped>
>
> No problem. I hope that I am not being to "preachy," I hold a
> PhD in evolutionary biology.
Not at all. I at least have very much enjoyed hearing you discuss
these issues, your knowledge definitely trumps my mere MA in
cultural anthro.
So, is opinion still strongly divided about modern
human/neanderthal interbreeding, or have some of the recent
intermediate skeletons mostly settled that issue?
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3772
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3773
Date: | 3/6/01 12:21:16 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, March 6 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3773
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Re: GTQ: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
RE: sapiens
Bye
Hi
Re: Astrogation design
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Astrogation design
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Question on cloning...
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Re: Sapiens
Re: Hi
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Real world Travelling: Madison, Wisconsin
RE: sapiens
RE: sapiens
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 10:33:44 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Frank Pitt wrote:
> > If they intend to program seriously in the future, they should start
> > with C, so that they understand how things like memory-management and
> > pointers *really* work, before they're given the tools that hide them
> > behind the scenes. Or better yet, assembler.
>
> Pointers are something that should not be worried about in modern
> programming at all.
>
> If I was writing in C now, the first thing I would do would be to implement
> smart memory management , and then make sure nothing in the program used
> anything but that. You do this by replacing the compiler's implementation of
> alloc, malloc, and calloc., and the implementation of free, if your compiler
> is not already smart enough to do this for you.
But if you don't understand pointers, you can't implement this memory
management in the first place! You have the freedom to work at a higher
level (smart memory management) only because you already know how things
work at a lower level (dumb pointers).
> Beginners should never be taught C or assembly language.
Well, I disagree; maybe they shouldn't be taught C first-thing, but
they should probably learn it before they get too far into the higher-
level languages -- if they want to be as flexible and adaptable as
possible.
But today, most apps are written in C and C++. Heavily disciplined use of
C++ can just about eliminate explicit pointer management, but any
programmer in the real world is eventually going to be exposed to plain
old pointers, and I'd really really prefer it if they'd learn the concepts,
even if it were as "crude and unsafe but rebindable references".
Pointer education is like sex education -- you can pretend the subject
doesn't exist, but the kids are going to be exposed to it eventually.
- -Russell B
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:41:22 -0500
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller software project (new thread)
on 1/3/01 4:50 pm, Rupert Boleyn at rboleyn@paradise.net.nz wrote:
>> Hivers - Lisp.
>> Solomani - C++.
>> Zhodani - Smalltalk.
>> K'Kree - VB.
>> Droyne - Forth.
>> Aslan - Males - BASIC
>> Females - COBOL
>> Vargr - Perl.
>>
>> And of course, Virus would use VBScript.
>
> And nobody uses stright C. That's so sad.
The Darrians used C, allowing them to reach their pinnacle of technology.
Unfortunately, a sales weasel from Stellar Microsystems introduced them to
Java and their tech capabilities collapsed.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:41:22 -0500
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
on 2/3/01 12:15 pm, Volker at volker@greimann.de wrote:
> I once saw imported german beer in a US liquor store. Not with the
> rest of the beers, but with the hard liquor... ;-)
Having just departed from the UK, I can now look forward to decent beer at
decent prices. When I was last over here in the Main Line (just outside
Philly) I bought a case of some lovely Belhaven 80 Shilling (a Scottish
brew). It was the most expensive thing in the store, and everybody was
shocked that I'd pay so much for beer. I pointed out that the price was less
than two thirds of what it would cost in a shop next door to the damn
brewery. Lower duty, y'ken.
I'm currently drinking Stoudt's Scarlet Lady Ale ESB, a quite acceptable
local brew.
Gordon (in Berwyn, near Bryn Mawr, but not in Wales).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:41:22 -0500
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: GTQ: Starship Weapons and Civil Engineering
on 4/3/01 11:19 pm, Dalton Spence at dalton.spence@hwcn.org wrote:
> A lot of civil engineering seems to involve digging or blasting large
> holes in the ground or rock.
As the son of a civil engineer, I can assure you that the bulk of civil
engineering work involves analysis and design, producing sample data,
building mathematical models and dealing with suppliers and subcontractors.
The blowing stuff up part is merely a perk of the job, but boy, what a perk.
:)
However, it's unlikely that an engineer would want to use any military
weapons systems for real excavation work. Perhaps for leisure, but not where
precise measured ground charges are required.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:41:22 -0500
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
on 5/3/01 5:38 pm, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:
> None of the admins here will touch a HP-UX box with a ten foot bargepole,
> unless there's a primed C4 charge on the end of it.
Cordite loop around the mainboard and a number eight detonator will suffice.
> HP-UX was a horrible FrankenUnix made of the corpses of a System V
> (HP's) and a BSD (Apollo's) implementations.
Which still beat Sequent Dynix hands down. Dynix (pre /ptx) was a system
that had dual 'universes'. One was BSD and one was SysV. There were command
line tools and system calls to invoke one or the other on demand,
irrespective of which universe the shell was invoked from. Lunatics in their
systems division would write tools and scripts that used both universes. It
became a confused mess very quickly. Shudder.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:42:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Paul Drye wrote:
> >ps: Why should *I* care if Claudia Schiffer serves it?
>
> Well, broken engagement or not, she could probably get you that hunk David
> Copperfield's home phone number....
Hunk? David Copperfield? A hunk of what?
Ew.
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 10:44:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: RE: sapiens
On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Jeff wrote:
>
> "That may be so, though it has been argued that a
> neanderthal in jeans and a jacket might pass for an
> ugly citizen on the subway."
>
> Having ridden a subway, I would agree that a freakish appearence would not
> necessarily be an especially consipicous trait.
I'm absolutely certain that I have seen a few neanderthals on the SF Muni.
I'm not quite sure that I haven't seen the occasional australopithecine.
Kiri ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:59:58 -0500
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Bye
It's goodbye from me...
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 13:59:58 -0500
From: Gordon Hundley <drgoon@netaxs.com>
Subject: Hi
...and it's hello from me.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:56:50 +0000
From: Paul Campbell <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: Astrogation design
On Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 08:25:18PM -0000, Mark Preston wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Paul Campbell
> > Sent: 04 March 2001 15:29
> > To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> > Subject: Re: Astrogation design
> >
> [snip]
> >
> > The root objects in my design were to be Universe objects, allowing
> > multiple meilieus to be stored in the same DB. Similar to
> > Galactic's
> > ability.
> >
> Check out the XML document example I posted - it allows sectors
> (that's all I've sent so far) to be defined with different data for
> your different "universes". Simplifies the data transport since you
> use the same base data for all of them and just get the data you need
> for the "universe" you are dealing with. It also allows - because of
> that - the use of house rules and locally run campaign data.
This is good at the level where differences occur at the local level,
and especially when the changes are in 'free text' fields as per your
example. Problems arise when you start to develop Untilites that need
to traverse this universe autonomously. Given two differing profiles
for a star system which one do you use?
Personally I'm not convinced either is better of worse from a
modelling point of view. However programatically I would prefer the
parallel universes as they are easier to seperate at an early stage.
And allow multiple unrelated milieus to reside safely within the same
database. The benefits of this are demonstrated by Galactic.
If the point you were making was for universe specific *notes* such as
in you XML example, then this could be handled by a flag on Notes
objects, which I have yet to add to the schema but could be attached
to any object in the database, from Universe to Planet to Room. It's
a hierarchical database. How low do you want to go?
- --
Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24
http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net
jupiter: 6:47pm up 56 days, 8:27, 7 users, load average: 1.07, 1.19, 1.32
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:13:07 -0500
From: Gordon Hundley <drgoon@netaxs.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
on 6/3/01 3:20 am, Mikko V. I. Parviainen at mvparvia@cc.hut.fi wrote:
> With my meager experience in different flavors of UNIX(r) I agree
> wholeheartedly with people who say that Packard should have had his name
> first.
>
> This would create a more appropriate acronym for their UNIX(r) system...
Thanks Mikko, you've just become the first here to keyboard kill me. I'm
currently wiping beer off a PowerBook. :)
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 12:35:01 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
>
> > Mr. Erickson,
> > On a related subject, can't low powered lasers currently be used to
> > blind? I got this nagging memory of attempts to blind pilots with them.
> > Just another figment of my little grey cells or is there a kernal of
> > truth in it?
However, there is (AFAIK) no reason why the 'side effect' of any military lasing unit cannot cause temporary or permanent blindness. As long as the item's intended use and design spec does not call for optical
damaging capabilities (but you just the military spec so that you get this as a 'bonus').
Si
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:11:46 +0000
From: Paul Campbell <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: Astrogation design
On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:30:46PM -0000, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> Paul Campbell wrote:
> <snip>
<g> I like your style of editing.
> My original Access DB (now converted into InterBase/SQL) had
Good move. We have a guy on our network who keeps building 10,000+
record tables in Access. This is driving our NetWare Admin nuts. He
keeps having to reboot the server, cause it doesn't recover by itself.
Some questions. My thinking cap is back at work so excuse any lame
ones.
Why are you using char(2) for you id fields instead of an integer
field of some sort? Especially one tied to a Sequence. ('Autonumber'
in Access lingo)
> Sector Table (key = sector id)
> sector id char(2)
> name varchar(50)
> x position integer <-- in sectors relative to 3I core sector
> y position integer <-- in sectors relative to 3I core sector
>
> Subsector Table (key = sector id + subsector id)
> sector id char(2)
> subsector id char(1)
> name varchar(50)
>
> Subsector Position Table (key = subsector id)
> subsector id char(1)
> x position integer <-- value 1-4
> y position integer <-- value 1-4
Any particular reason why this isn't part of the Subsector Table? I'm
not saying you don't have a reason, I just don't see it.
> System Table (key = sector id + subsector id + subsector hex)
> sector id char(2)
> subsector id char(1)
> subsector hex char(4)
> name varchar(50)
> ... other attributes including UWP
>
> Border Table (key = sector id + subsector id + subsector hex)
> sector id char(2)
> subsector id char(1)
> subsector hex char(4)
> alignment char(2)
> x position integer <-- not normalised but needed for performance
> y position integer <-- " " " " " "
I'd suggest putting the Alignment in the System Table unless you
specifically want to allocate Alignements to empty hexes.
> Star Table (key = sector id + subsector id + subsector hex + star id)
> sector id char(2)
> subsector id char(1)
> subsector hex char(4)
> star id integer
> ... other attributes
>
> Hex Position Table (key = subsector id + subsector hex)
> subsector id char(1)
> subsector hex char(4)
> system hex char(4)
I don't understand what this last table represents.
- --
Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24
http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net
jupiter: 6:57pm up 56 days, 8:37, 7 users, load average: 1.48, 1.34, 1.31
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:25:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Simon Brodie writes:
> However, there is (AFAIK) no reason why the 'side effect' of any military
> lasing unit cannot cause temporary or permanent blindness. As long as the item's intended use and design spec does not call for optical damaging capabilities (but you just the military spec so that you get this as a 'bonus').
Note, however, that microsecond optical opaquing systems which will protect
from this are well on their way to being developed.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:29:58 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: Question on cloning...
I know the basic process as it stands today. however Is it or will it be
possable in the future to cloane people in say a tank of vat so that they
are cloned fully grown? and if so the next question is how long would it
take to train a clone to take an active part in society in the furture even
if that is just a menial type job? I mean would they have developed some
sort of "fast programming" method that will teach the clone quickly.
Something like sixth day (or at least what i think they did in that movie i
never saw it 8P)
The reason for asking is that the charicters are thinking about rescuing a
person from their captors and they idea was if they could get a clone fast
enough they could sneak in and switch them. truth is im not sure this is
doable but thought i would throw it out to the mailing list to give me some
feed back.
thanks for your info.
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 12:31:54 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> This is true, but you know, America earned this reputation.
>
> There are good beers in America NOW, mostly from microbreweries, but when
> I was a kid and first began to drink beer, the choices were pretty much:
>
> Budweiser, Miller, Coors, Schaefer, and Generic.
One word: Prohibition. Prohibition was the Great Extinction for breweries in the US; prior to Prohibition, beer was made and consumed locally, and there were few (if any) national brands.
There's a really good, enjoyable book about the beer industry in America and how it got that way, written by the son of the man who started importing Heinekens to the US way back when.
_Beer blast :the inside story of the brewing industry's bizarre battles for your money_ by Philip Van Munching
Times Business pub. 1997
ISBN 0812963911
It's a pretty light, informative read by someone who was deep into the
industry, and has lots of stories to tell, like the _first_ time Coors
tried to market Zima, only it was antifreeze green...and how 'light
beer' was originally invented to be a 'healthy alternative' and died in
the market.
There's lots of oBTrav fodder in this book.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 12:35:45 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Sapiens
Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 08:26 PM 03/05/01 -0800, you wrote:
>
>> Just out of curiosity - what is the oldest non-fossilized set of bones
>> ever discovered?
>
>
> The Jakov mammoth, found intact and fozen in Siberia, is around 20,000
Alas, now that they've started thawing it, it seems far less intact than they had hoped.
Saw that last night on Discovery News; the follow-up special about it is
coming up soon.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 11:23:01 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Hi
At 01:59 PM 03/06/01 -0500, you wrote:
>...and it's hello from me.
>
>Gordon.
Shades of the Two Ronnies!
- --
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,
in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 12:40:36 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Gordon Hundley wrote:
> Which still beat Sequent Dynix hands down. Dynix (pre /ptx) was a system
> that had dual 'universes'. One was BSD and one was SysV. There were command
> line tools and system calls to invoke one or the other on demand,
> irrespective of which universe the shell was invoked from. Lunatics in their
> systems division would write tools and scripts that used both universes. It
> became a confused mess very quickly. Shudder.
Why do I feel wild, manaiacal laughter welling up in me??? Gods, what a bender that THAT one must have been thought up on...
Anyway we used to have a large sign above the table holding all our consoles "You are in a maze of twisty little Unixes, all slightly different"
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 14:55:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Homo sapiens or otherwise
Jeff writes:
>True, however nobody would claim that black and white people look differntly
>because they are seperate subspecies.
Actually, there are people who claim exactly that. Unfortunately,
terms like "subspecies" carry emotional luggage. I believe that
"subspecies" is more difficult to define than species, but where
humans are involved there are even more complications.
>We would expect the other subspecies
>to have significant differences above that observed among racially seperate
>populations. (As a side issue, is it known how long the racial variations
>have been developing?)
We would expect that it is possible that other subspecies
(having evolved for the past 300,000 years on another world)
to have greater differences than those observed among
"races" on Terra, but not necessarily so. In any event, I
am not aware of anything in canon that specifies that the
various "races" of humaniti are no more different than the
Terran "races," but I am no canon expert.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 11:58:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
A magazine (I want to say Biblical Archaeology, but I could be wrong)
had an article a year or so ago talking about Neanderthal/Sapien
relations in the Holy Land. According to that article, the two races
lived side-by-side for close on 50,000 years, but there was absolutely
no evidence that they interbred.
A possible Sapien/Neanderthal cross was unearthed in a cave in Spain
about the same time, but the individual in question was about 4 when he
died, so his morphology was not well developed and his remains remain
controversial.
DNA analysis of modern humans and the remains of neanderthals indicate
they were fairly distantly related, though this is also somewhat
controversial.
- --- Jeff <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu> wrote:
> Certainly, but that point simply goes further to strengthening my
> claim of a
> GT contradiction.
>
> Jeff Yin
>
> Also, remember that one set of current evidence strongly indicates
> that modern humans and neanderthals could and did interbreed.
> Given that, we honestly have no idea how many of our other
> hominid ancestors we could interbreed with.
>
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
>
>
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
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**********************************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:02:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Jeff writes:
>>Horses and Donkeys (undeniably seperate species by any definition) are
>>"somewhat" interfertile even with purely natural conception (it is extremely
>>rare but not unheard of for *fertile* mules to be born). Add in advanced
>>(early stellar+) medical intervention and RoF does not actually contradict
>>GT.
>There again, however, another necessary point has been overlooked. Horses
>and Donkeys *are* seperate species. According to GT, all of the human races
>are seperated only into subspecies. This would seem to support the inherent
>confliction to which I indicate.
It certainly points to the grey areas that can arise. If 1 in 100,000
matings result in infertile offspring in our population (just a wild
guess, I have no idea how often this happens), then where do you
you start calling another population a separate species? When 1
in 10,000 are infertile? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 100? 1 in 10? 9 in 10?
99 in 100? 999 in 1,000? You get the idea. It is certainly
possible to have all those Traveller "races" as subspecies,
possibly with some level of genetic incompatability. More different
than Terran "races," but all H. sapiens.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:04:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Real world Travelling: Madison, Wisconsin
I expect to be in Madison, Wisconsin on business for two or three days
early next week. If anyone there would like to do dinner or whatever, or
if you have suggestions for fun things to do, please email me off list.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:11:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: sapiens
Jeff writes:
>The issue before was 400,000 years (The "official" values for GT), which
>would extend to include archaic H.sapiens.
I believe that the canon time frame is 300,000 YA for Traveller,
but I couldn't swear to it. In any event, there is enough
uncertainty that the 100,000 year difference is not going to
sink anyone.
>Do the fruit flies show as much
>variation among their species as neanderthals and modern man do as
>subspecies?
That depends on what you mean by variation. A very large
can of several species of worms. :)
>I seem to recall that the lines in these kind of things are
>pretty blurry, and it would seem that the actual physical and genetic
>differences are more significant then taxonomic accuracy.
I'm not sure what you mean by "taxonomic accuracy"?
>Then the issue remains as before. In over 300,000 years of seperation, why
>are there not more significant changes between the human races? Adding a
>zhodotlas to the end of H.sapiens may classify them as a new subspecies,
>which I am not taking issue with. But why the lack of physical changes?
Why should there be more physical change? You have
argued that it is possible that there could be significant
physical changes, but have given no reasons to expect
physical changes greater than those observed on Terra.
Nor it is necessarily true (AFAIK) that Zhodanis are no
more different from Vilani than eskimos are from
bushmen.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:18:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: sapiens
Jeff writes:
>"Well, it is not really certain that H. erectus, especially H.
>erectus from 300,000 YA, could not interbreed successfully
>with folks alive today."
>Well, it is possible (as another user has pointed out) to interbreed
>seperate species sometimes. I get the feeling that these terms hold a lot of
>gray areas.
I believe that you may be missing the point. As of
300,000 YA, H. erectus and H. sapiens may have
been the same species. The fact that taxonomists
have recognized these two categories does not
mean or imply that there were never individuals
that could be said to belong to both categories.
This has nothing to do with two groups living at the
same time being considered separate species and
yet being able to interbreed. This is about one
group happily interbreeding that might be
considered H. erectus and/or H. sapiens.
<snipped>
>You are probably right, I'm just not smart enough for the gearhead threads.
>In the end, then, it would seem reasonable, though not necessarily canon, to
>have a human species somewhere continuing the neanderthal line, or even
>taking a different route after H.erectus.
I've always wanted a navigator named Thag.
:)
Peez
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3773
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3774
Date: | 3/6/01 3:52:20 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Tuesday, March 6 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3774
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
RE: sapiens
Re: Question on cloning...
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Re: Question on cloning...
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Help... Orbital Period Calculations!
Re: Help... Orbital Period Calculations!
RE: Help... Orbital Period Calculations!
Re: Help... Orbital Period Calculations!
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Another munchkin magnet from SMEG/OFF
RE: License To Program
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
RE: New law in Australia
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:21:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
On Tue, 6 Mar 2001, Ian Ferguson wrote:
> Jeff writes:
> >>Horses and Donkeys (undeniably seperate species by any definition) are
> >>"somewhat" interfertile even with purely natural conception (it is extremely
> >>rare but not unheard of for *fertile* mules to be born). Add in advanced
> >>(early stellar+) medical intervention and RoF does not actually contradict
> >>GT.
> >There again, however, another necessary point has been overlooked. Horses
> >and Donkeys *are* seperate species. According to GT, all of the human races
> >are seperated only into subspecies. This would seem to support the inherent
> >confliction to which I indicate.
>
> It certainly points to the grey areas that can arise. If 1 in 100,000
> matings result in infertile offspring in our population (just a wild
> guess, I have no idea how often this happens), then where do you
> you start calling another population a separate species? When 1
> in 10,000 are infertile? 1 in 1,000? 1 in 100? 1 in 10? 9 in 10?
> 99 in 100? 999 in 1,000? You get the idea. It is certainly
> possible to have all those Traveller "races" as subspecies,
> possibly with some level of genetic incompatability. More different
> than Terran "races," but all H. sapiens.
There's genetic incompatibility and then there's genetic incompatibility.
The Rh factor caused lots of fetal deaths until we knew what it was and
how to treat it; when a woman who didn't have this blood protein had a
child with a man who did, the first one would often be OK, but subsequent
ones would be miscarried due to her allergic reaction to the baby's blood
protein that she didn't share.
There are all kinds of weird factors in blood (I used to work in a blood
bank) that are specific to certain ethnicities or even to people born in
certain isolated areas. Just matching the A/B/O blood group isn't nearly
safe enough for transfusion.
I'm sure that if you took humans and kept them on different planets until
they developed space travel, weird blood proteins and antibodies would be
one of the first differences to manifest. I wouldn't want a blood
transfusion from a Zhodani, even if we were the same blood type, unless it
was thoroughly screened for such weirdnesses-- and I'm sure that if a
healthy woman (let's not use me as an example for anything related to
reproduction) from Earth tried to have a child with a Zhodani male, the
chance of something like the Rh factor turning up would be pretty high.
This doesn't mean they're separate species, but it would make reproduction
difficult without medical assistance.
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 15:22:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: sapiens
John Snead writes:
>>No problem. I hope that I am not being to "preachy," I hold a
>>PhD in evolutionary biology.
>Not at all. I at least have very much enjoyed hearing you discuss
>these issues, your knowledge definitely trumps my mere MA in
>cultural anthro.
Not for everything. Remember that a specialist is
someone who knows more and more about less and
less until they know everything about nothing. :)
>So, is opinion still strongly divided about modern
>human/neanderthal interbreeding, or have some of the recent
>intermediate skeletons mostly settled that issue?
Human evolution is not my strong suit, but I believe
that there is no sign of the issue being very settled.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:51:29 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Question on cloning...
William Lane <wlane@Asera.com> wrote:
> I know the basic process as it stands today. however Is it or will it
> be possable in the future to cloane people in say a tank of vat so
> that they are cloned fully grown? and if so the next question is how
> long would it take to train a clone to take an active part in society
> in the furture even if that is just a menial type job? I mean would
> they have developed some sort of "fast programming" method that will
> teach the clone quickly. Something like sixth day (or at least what i
> think they did in that movie i never saw it 8P)
Using anything remotely resembling current medical tech, growing
a clone to adulthood will take ~20 years, just like for anyone else.
In Traveller, growth quickening at a 100 x rate exists at TL13, that
means those 20 years suddenly become more like 2 1/2 months.
OTOH, Traveller has never specifically discussed fast learning. The
only equivalent would be the crude memory transfer described in
Mega-Traveller (the clone gets basic info, anything that can be
learned by rote (like languages and most basic physical tasks, but
no detailed memories, skills, or personality traits), which is
available at TL 16. Doable, but you'll need to find the right world.
OTOH, while you can argue (somewhat dubiously) that just-vated a
clone is not exactly a person, one which has had a memory
transfer is definitely a person that will be able to walk speak, and
express its (albeit fairly simple) wants.
> The reason for asking is that the charicters are thinking about
> rescuing a person from their captors and they idea was if they could
> get a clone fast enough they could sneak in and switch them. truth is
> im not sure this is doable but thought i would throw it out to the
> mailing list to give me some feed back.
A more moral (if far more expensive) option is a pseudobio robot. It
won't be cheap, but you could make a robot that can pass as
human. It's TL 15, but you could likely even grow the person's skin
around it, which combined with careful shielding will allow it to pass
nearly anything except a medical test. Of course, doing this will
likely cost at minimum 500,000 Credits, more if you want it to be
able to hold a simple human-seeming conversation. Probably more
like 2 MCr.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 12:59:21 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> A magazine (I want to say Biblical Archaeology, but I could be wrong)
> had an article a year or so ago talking about Neanderthal/Sapien
> relations in the Holy Land. According to that article, the two races
> lived side-by-side for close on 50,000 years, but there was absolutely
> no evidence that they interbred.
>
> A possible Sapien/Neanderthal cross was unearthed in a cave in Spain
> about the same time, but the individual in question was about 4 when
> he died, so his morphology was not well developed and his remains
> remain controversial.
Actually IIRC within the last 4-6 months archeologists have found
additional intermediate skeletons, including I believe at least one
adult (or perhaps they merely found one adult skeleton). Ian likely
knows more than I. I saw it on
http://www.sciquest.com/cgi-
bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/sci_level3.d2w/report?nav_banner=bio
&resource=articles&gateway=B-evolut
If you are interested, go back through the previous articles for a few
months. It's somewhere in there.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 08:12:45 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Now all we need is a way to cross this with the "Hot Fusion in a can" thread...
any ideas anyone? Using a can of beer in the "fusion initiator" by accident and getting your V**** infected reactor drunk?
Rob
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 14:08:14 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
> Cordite loop around the mainboard and a number eight detonator
> will suffice.
Don't you mean det-cord loop? :) I didn't think cordite came in cord form.
Mark?
> > HP-UX was a horrible FrankenUnix made of the corpses of a System V
> > (HP's) and a BSD (Apollo's) implementations.
>
> Which still beat Sequent Dynix hands down. Dynix (pre /ptx) was a system
> that had dual 'universes'. One was BSD and one was SysV. There
> were command
> line tools and system calls to invoke one or the other on demand,
> irrespective of which universe the shell was invoked from.
> Lunatics in their
> systems division would write tools and scripts that used both
> universes. It
> became a confused mess very quickly. Shudder.
Yea Gods! Glad I never had to mess with that crap...
Jesse
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:19:14 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Note, however, that microsecond optical opaquing systems which will
> protect from this are well on their way to being developed.
Unfortunately microsecond switching is way too slow -- nanosecond
pulses are trivial to achieve and with a fair bit of effort you can
get picosecond pulses or shorter. Sure, you can protect against
continuous-beam lasers, which may suffice for 'accidental' blinding
from laser designators and such like. It would certainly not stop a
pulsed laser that had a 'byproduct' of blinding.
- - Tim
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 14:45:22 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 2:08 PM
Subject: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
> > Cordite loop around the mainboard and a number eight detonator
> > will suffice.
>
> Don't you mean det-cord loop? :) I didn't think cordite came in cord
form.
> Mark?
Yeah, det-cord or prima-cord. Cordite is a propellant made from
nitrocellulose, nitroglycerine and petroleum jelly, usually extruded into
spaghetti like strands, and used primarily by British and Empire military in
smallarms and some artillery.
The combustion byproducts have a characteristic 'tangy' odor, the "reek of
cordite".
Tod
webmaster@cordite.com
http://www.cordite.com
(among others)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:46:37 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
On 6 Mar 2001, at 12:21, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> I'm sure that if you took humans and kept them on different planets until they
> developed space travel, weird blood proteins and antibodies would be one of
> the first differences to manifest. I wouldn't want a blood transfusion from a
> Zhodani, even if we were the same blood type, unless it was thoroughly
> screened for such weirdnesses-- and I'm sure that if a healthy woman (let's
> not use me as an example for anything related to reproduction) from Earth
> tried to have a child with a Zhodani male, the chance of something like the Rh
> factor turning up would be pretty high.
> This doesn't mean they're separate species, but it would make reproduction
> difficult without medical assistance.
Yes, but from what I understand (how it was explained to my wife and I) is
that the Rh factor is only important for the *second* and subequent
children (I stand ready to be corrected). That's a little different from being
totally unable to interbreed without medical assistance.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:46:37 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Question on cloning...
On 6 Mar 2001, at 12:51, sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> OTOH, Traveller has never specifically discussed fast learning. The
> only equivalent would be the crude memory transfer described in
> Mega-Traveller (the clone gets basic info, anything that can be
> learned by rote (like languages and most basic physical tasks, but
> no detailed memories, skills, or personality traits), which is
> available at TL 16. Doable, but you'll need to find the right world.
> OTOH, while you can argue (somewhat dubiously) that just-vated a
> clone is not exactly a person, one which has had a memory
> transfer is definitely a person that will be able to walk speak, and
> express its (albeit fairly simple) wants.
Uhmm, one of DGPs major sins (IMHO of course) was introducing mass
cloning and rapid learning for the Terrans during the Interstellar Wars (S&A
Genassist). So that would put the technology at TL11 (or better option, just
ignore this)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:46:37 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
On 6 Mar 2001, at 10:14, Jeff wrote:
> There again, however, another necessary point has been overlooked. Horses and
> Donkeys *are* seperate species. According to GT, all of the human races are
> seperated only into subspecies. This would seem to support the inherent
> confliction to which I indicate.
Only according to RoF (according to GT they are seperate species). The
way I look at things is: if they need medical intervention to produce fertile
offspring then biologically speaking they are a seperate species.
Hmmm, interesting. Obviously, for some reason the Imperium chooses to
classify humans who clearly are biological distinct species as mere
subspecies. "Look they're the same species, they can swap genetic
material. Sure we have to use medical intervention to do it, but they're still
swapping genetic material". Hmmm, maybe something to do with the
Imperial discrediting the Solomani Movement (We're all just one big happy
genome, honest).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:41:51 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: Help... Orbital Period Calculations!
I am trying to calculate the orbital period of an artificial satellite
above an earthlike world at an altitude of 1120 km
I use the formula from
http://www.seds.org/pub/faq/Space_FAQ_04_13_-_Calculations, which is
P = 2 pi/(Sqrt(u/a^3))
But keep comming up with around 6 minutes (373 seconds), which doesn't
sound right.
I have tried this with a formula from an Astrophysics book I own, but
come up with the same number...
Can someone walk me through the use of this formula so I can see if I am
right or wrong....
Then maybe this friday I will be able to confidantly tell my players how
long it takes them to do a complete orbit....
sigh.....
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul Harris
Dytech Solutions
Ph: (03) 6224 4116
Fax: (03) 6224 4117
Mob: 0419 880 248
Email: paul.harris@dytech.com.au
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 14:58:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Help... Orbital Period Calculations!
Paul Harris writes:
> I am trying to calculate the orbital period of an artificial satellite
> above an earthlike world at an altitude of 1120 km
>
> I use the formula from
> http://www.seds.org/pub/faq/Space_FAQ_04_13_-_Calculations, which is
>
> P = 2 pi/(Sqrt(u/a^3))
>
> But keep comming up with around 6 minutes (373 seconds), which doesn't
> sound right.
Add the radius of the planet. Actual altitude is probably about 7,500 km.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:52:30 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: Help... Orbital Period Calculations!
Doh.....!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Jackson [mailto:ajackson@molly.iii.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 9:59 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Help... Orbital Period Calculations!
Paul Harris writes:
> I am trying to calculate the orbital period of an artificial satellite
> above an earthlike world at an altitude of 1120 km
>
> I use the formula from
> http://www.seds.org/pub/faq/Space_FAQ_04_13_-_Calculations, which is
>
> P = 2 pi/(Sqrt(u/a^3))
>
> But keep comming up with around 6 minutes (373 seconds), which doesn't
> sound right.
Add the radius of the planet. Actual altitude is probably about 7,500
km.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 18:05:22 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Help... Orbital Period Calculations!
>I am trying to calculate the orbital period of an artificial satellite
>above an earthlike world at an altitude of 1120 km
Are you mixing up the distance from the centre point of the planet with the
height above the surface? An altitude of 1120 km is 7498 km from the
centre....
In any case, there's a web-based calculator that will do this for you at:
http://www.bumply.com/2300/astro.htm
Second form down, "Planets and Satellite Orbital Calculations".
Cheers,
Paul Drye
>I use the formula from
>http://www.seds.org/pub/faq/Space_FAQ_04_13_-_Calculations, which is
>
>P = 2 pi/(Sqrt(u/a^3))
>
>But keep comming up with around 6 minutes (373 seconds), which doesn't
>sound right.
>
>I have tried this with a formula from an Astrophysics book I own, but
>come up with the same number...
>
>Can someone walk me through the use of this formula so I can see if I am
>right or wrong....
>
>Then maybe this friday I will be able to confidantly tell my players how
>long it takes them to do a complete orbit....
>
>sigh.....
>
>
>
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Paul Harris
>Dytech Solutions
>Ph: (03) 6224 4116
>Fax: (03) 6224 4117
>Mob: 0419 880 248
>Email: paul.harris@dytech.com.au
>------------------------------------------------------------------------
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:06:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> On 6 Mar 2001, at 12:21, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>
> > I'm sure that if you took humans and kept them on different planets until they
> > developed space travel, weird blood proteins and antibodies would be one of
> > the first differences to manifest. I wouldn't want a blood transfusion from a
> > Zhodani, even if we were the same blood type, unless it was thoroughly
> > screened for such weirdnesses-- and I'm sure that if a healthy woman (let's
> > not use me as an example for anything related to reproduction) from Earth
> > tried to have a child with a Zhodani male, the chance of something like the Rh
> > factor turning up would be pretty high.
>
> > This doesn't mean they're separate species, but it would make reproduction
> > difficult without medical assistance.
>
> Yes, but from what I understand (how it was explained to my wife and
> I) is that the Rh factor is only important for the *second* and
> subequent children (I stand ready to be corrected). That's a little
> different from being totally unable to interbreed without medical
> assistance.
Second and subsequent PREGNANCIES, not second and subsequent CHILDREN.
(Big difference.)
If she's had an abortion or miscarriage in the past and been sensitized to
whatever factor it is, she'll still miscarry. Basically, you need
medical assistance to interbreed-- she's got to have the treatment to
prevent her from rejecting future pregnancies. And that means the
treatment has to be developed.
I'm sure the original Vilani-Solomani intermarriages had lots of
problems-- there were probably ALL SORTS of things in Solomani blood that
Vilani women reacted to, and possibly the other way round as well, but
being as how the Vilani are more homogeneous, there were fewer of them.
Of course the use of artificial wombs is probably quite common on any
world with the requisite TL; as someone who has experienced near-death in
childbirth and has never successfully produced a living child, I don't at
all understand the romantic fascination with which others of my gender
invest the notion of "natural childbirth", and would hope so anyway.
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:40:37 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Another munchkin magnet from SMEG/OFF
For imediate release
The Orcrist Firearms Foundry (a division of the Spinward Marches
Entertainment Group) are pleased to announce the latest in their
series of small arms for the discriminating user:
The "ArchDuke" 20mm Revolver.
Ammo: length=35mm Weight=38g Price=Cr1.52
Barrel: Length=10cm weight=.2kg Price=Cr40*
4 rnd Revolver cylinder: Length=20cm Weight=2.448kg Price=Cr367.20*
Pistol grip: Length=0cm Weight=.4kg* Price=Cr5*
Totals: Length=30cm Weight(empty)=3.048kg (loaded)=3.2kg
Price=Cr412.20*
E=2448joules
Damage Ball/DS=3 HE/HEAP=8
Penetration Ball=2-nil DS=1-2-nil
ROF=DAR
Short Range Ball=20m DS=24m HE/HEAP=15m
Due to the low power cartridge the weapon counts as sound suppressed
(but not silenced)
Bulk=2
Recoil=3
Lets face it. Nothing says authority quite like a big freaking gun and we
at the SMEG/OFF development team have created the gun that screams,
"I'm in charge here," louder than most. But intimidation isn't the only
feature of this weapon. This side arm is painstakingly crafted out of the
finest materials and is decorated by gold and silver inlay on the barrel and
cylinder of the weapon. Rounding out the decorative appointments is the
grip hand carved from daghadasi ivory imported from the far end of the
Imperium at great expense. This weapon is sure to cause pistol envey
in even the most powerfull of Imperial nobles. Order yours today as the
demand for this revolver (each one hand crafted with decoration made
to specific order by our renowned artisans) is sure to exceed supply.
Final Cost Cr9,999.95*
SMEG/OFF Marketing Division.
*The cost has been artificially inflated to account for the special
detailing
and because I felt like it. I gave the ivory pistol grip double the weight
of a
wooden grip as a WAG for the density. The daghadasi is from Adventure 9
Nomads of the World-Ocean. I'm not sure if they are an actual source
for ivory or something similar but what the hey it's a nice evil sort of
way to get it.
I've been wanting to do a weapon like this since I came across the
blurb on the revolver in the T4 book. If revolvers are a status symbol
there has to be a market for a big flashy gun for the petty nobles trying
to up their apparent social class. Or at least intimidate the even pettier
nobles into some semblance of respect. This is the weapon of the neuvo
noblesse.
I suspect that this design probably inherits the same major problem as
it's forbear the sniper cannon, to whit, the range is probably to high in
relation to real world data. Oh well.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:34:59 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: License To Program
>>
>> Now I'm primarily a user and my opinion is that most of my problems
result
>> from the inability of "professional" programmers to do what's really
>> important to rolling out usable software. That's DOCUMENTATION!
>> Documentation, help files, user guides, user oriented (as opposed to
>> programmer oriented) interfaces, documented code, and use of unsuitable
>> tools (you know, like using c to make a GUI.)
>
>Programmers are not supposed to do that work, that's what document
>specialists are for.
>
Unfortunately when you work at a national lab there are no document
specialists.
>Also, user-oriented interfaces do exist, and the science of usability is
>something that is heavily emphasised by professional development
>organizations. However, again, it is not the programmer's responsibility to
>do this, it is up to the usability experts and the testing organization to
>drive this.
>
Ditto, as above no implementation specialists.
>Basically, any organization that is not employing documentation
>professionals and usability experts is not a professional organization.
>
Unfortunately you're correct, as I've tried to tell management more than
once. Sorry if I've come on rather strong, but this is a big problem for me
professional. Our programmers tend to be people strait out of school. They
are given a project to implement, most often some kind of control system
tool, which requires everything from low level to high level programming.
They are supposedly responsible for the entire project, but when they
finish, or move on, what we usually get is a tool that is barely usable, has
no documentation, a clunky interface, and is made up of spaghetti code.
I swear, we have one tool that was written by a guy who went out the door as
soon at it was completed. It was written in C++, awk, Perl and tcl/tk. And
since it kinda works there are no plans to commit the resources to write
something that really works.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:46:37 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
On 6 Mar 2001, at 15:06, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> > Yes, but from what I understand (how it was explained to my wife and
> > I) is that the Rh factor is only important for the *second* and
> > subequent children (I stand ready to be corrected). That's a little
> > different from being totally unable to interbreed without medical
> > assistance.
> Second and subsequent PREGNANCIES, not second and subsequent CHILDREN.
> (Big difference.)
If the two populations can have one pregnancy (and child), then they *can*
obviously interbreed without medical assistance (at least once). Hmm, this
raises an interesting point. If the two populations have a blood protien that
causes the *first* pregnancy to abort, are they then seperate species?
> If she's had an abortion or miscarriage in the past and been sensitized to
> whatever factor it is, she'll still miscarry. Basically, you need medical
> assistance to interbreed-- she's got to have the treatment to prevent her from
> rejecting future pregnancies. And that means the treatment has to be
> developed.
I thought that there was also a real risk to the mother on the third and
subsequent pregnancy?
> I'm sure the original Vilani-Solomani intermarriages had lots of
> problems-- there were probably ALL SORTS of things in Solomani blood that
> Vilani women reacted to, and possibly the other way round as well, but being
> as how the Vilani are more homogeneous, there were fewer of them.
Very definitely. Without medical assistance, such pregnancies would be
*very* risky. Another, interesting point, as the Solomani & Vilani
intermingled, just what effect would the spread of different blood proteins
have?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:45:15 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: New law in Australia
David does that mean we are no longer allowed to clip parts of your messages
in our replies to your comments because that would mean that we have changed
the original form of the text?
I agree it is a silly law, but on a par with some of the other Internet
related law some countries have been passing in the last year.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3774
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Traveller-digest Wednesday, March 7 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3775
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Cloning robots...
Traveller Can Prevent Alzheimer's
Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Re : Question on cloning... (longish)
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Re: Human/Neanderthal interbreeding
RE: sapiens
Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Re: Question on cloning...
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Re: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Re: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Re: Question on cloning...
KB3 On the NET!
Re: Question on cloning...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:56:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> On 6 Mar 2001, at 15:06, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> > > Yes, but from what I understand (how it was explained to my wife and
> > > I) is that the Rh factor is only important for the *second* and
> > > subequent children (I stand ready to be corrected). That's a little
> > > different from being totally unable to interbreed without medical
> > > assistance.
>
> > Second and subsequent PREGNANCIES, not second and subsequent CHILDREN.
>
> > (Big difference.)
>
> If the two populations can have one pregnancy (and child), then they *can*
> obviously interbreed without medical assistance (at least once). Hmm, this
> raises an interesting point. If the two populations have a blood protien that
> causes the *first* pregnancy to abort, are they then seperate species?
I don't know.
> > If she's had an abortion or miscarriage in the past and been sensitized to
> > whatever factor it is, she'll still miscarry. Basically, you need medical
> > assistance to interbreed-- she's got to have the treatment to prevent her from
> > rejecting future pregnancies. And that means the treatment has to be
> > developed.
>
> I thought that there was also a real risk to the mother on the third and
> subsequent pregnancy?
I am not sure but having repeated miscarriages in and of itself is a
medical risk (This much I know for sure).
> > I'm sure the original Vilani-Solomani intermarriages had lots of
> > problems-- there were probably ALL SORTS of things in Solomani blood that
> > Vilani women reacted to, and possibly the other way round as well, but being
> > as how the Vilani are more homogeneous, there were fewer of them.
>
> Very definitely. Without medical assistance, such pregnancies would be
> *very* risky. Another, interesting point, as the Solomani & Vilani
> intermingled, just what effect would the spread of different blood proteins
> have?
Interesting question. Not sure. I would bet that it cut the fad for
minimal medical involvement in pregnancy dead though.
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 19:09:42 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Cloning robots...
John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com puts into the Ether:
>A more moral (if far more expensive) option is a pseudobio robot. It
>won't be cheap, but you could make a robot that can pass as
>human. It's TL 15, but you could likely even grow the person's skin
>around it, which combined with careful shielding will allow it to pass
>nearly anything except a medical test. Of course, doing this will
>likely cost at minimum 500,000 Credits, more if you want it to be
>able to hold a simple human-seeming conversation. Probably more
>like 2 MCr.
Hmmm...I smell an adventure hook here. Weathy, and very old patron has
pushed anti-aging drug therapy as far as it will go, and wants one of these
for a new body.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 16:52:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Traveller Can Prevent Alzheimer's
Brain Teasers May Delay Alzheimer's
Study finds intellectual hobbies in adult life have protective effect
by Paul Recer
Associated Press
I read the article in paper media format, and do not have an electronic
address to which to refer you. It appears in today's San Francisco
Chronicle, at A9 column 1.
Disclaimer: The article does not actually mention Traveller or
role-playing games, but it does say, "A survey of people in their 70s
showed that those who regularly participated in hobbies that were
intellectually challenging during their younger adult years tended to be
protected from Alzheimer's disease." Among the intellectually challenging
hobbies are listed "chess or other board games."
I, for one, am going to be sure to attend the monthly San Jose Traveller
board game group for as long as possible. It's for my own good.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:30:26 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
hal@buffnet.net writes:
>> Hello Robert,
>> Forward's descriptions of the antimatter containment system by
>> inference in his story, indicate that the antimatter bunkers do not
>> weight some 25 tons per unit as GURPS VEHICLES has it. GURPS
>> VEHICLES makes the storage bunkers weigh more per cubic foot than
>> hydrogen fusion containment bottles!
From the _story_ : 3mg AM to 1400g prop/sec burn
800Mg prop carried, so 1.7 kg enclosed in a space 'about as big as a kitchen
refrigerator'.
I agree that this is ridiculous.
From the preceding essay ('Antimatter') in 'Indistinguishable From Magic':-
> One of these Penning traps could easily hold up to a trillion
> antiprotons. The traps are very small in size... They do require
> large thermos-like containers full of liquid helium to keep them
> cold, so they are more pickup-truck portable than hand portable.)
This is the modern system you're referring to, Anthony.
Hal wrote :-
> Is Forward a trained scientist who knows more than Pulver? That I
> can't answer...
?!
'Indistinguishable From Magic' has (peer-reviewed) journal references
after each of the 'reviews', as do some of his other books, IIRC.
Optionally, check the list of publications at the Tethers International
website (I think it's www.whiteby.com - but hit a search engine to check).
Anthony Jackson wrote :-
> Forward almost certainly does know more. However, he makes up for it
> by being wildly optimistic.
With regard to physics and electrical engineering, I'd remove 'almost' from
the first sentence, on the basis of qualifications, publication record,
patents, etc...
Forward's fiction is pretty average, though.
He is certainly wildly optimistic in his fiction. The journal articles he's
submitted seem to be relatively sober and thoughtful, given the subjects
under discussion.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:30:32 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Question on cloning... (longish)
William Lane wrote :-
> however Is it or will it be possable in the future to cloane people
> in say a tank of vat so that they are cloned fully grown?
In Reality(TM), the technical difficulties in getting cell cultures to
reliably survive are hurdle enough, let alone producing viable fertilised
eggs for the cloning work.
Artificial wombs and growth quickening are a long way off. They may not be
possible at all (nanotech assembly methods may be able to do both of them,
anyway).
However, in Traveller, growth quickening is available at typical Imperial
tech levels (MT Ref's Companion p.28, from TTL 10). This may be nanotech
based, as there's no detailed description given.
> if so the next question is how long would it take to train a clone to
> take an active part in society in the furture even if that is just a
> menial type job? I mean would they have developed some
> sort of "fast programming" method that will teach the clone quickly.
Realistically, years, and probably no. Why?
The molecular basis of learning, short-term memory and neural plasticity has
been painfully teased out over the last 30 years. What has been learned is
just the tip of the iceberg.
There are 10^11 neurons in the human central nervous system. There's an
average of 1000 connections (synapses) from each neuron.
The system is complex.
Much more needs to be known about the fine structure of the brain before
such a task can be performed.
How do we see what the connections are like in the brain we want to
duplicate? Is the reading process destructive or not?
What pattern of connections, and to which areas, mean 'skill x' or
'behaviour y'?
I do not think that it will be possible to rapidly (less than several years)
'program' a nervous system, short of building it in the desired
configuration (more nanomagic beyond average TTLs, _unless_ you consider
growth quickening to be nanotech based).
For the purposes of the game, 2-6 months to grow and teach a clone (nanotech
quickened growth and custom built brain). This doesn't include time taken to
read the brain of the original.
> The reason for asking is that the charicters are thinking about
> rescuing a person from their captors and they idea was if they could
> get a clone fast enough they could sneak in and switch them.
Is the hostage conscious or not?
If not, the clone doesn't need to have a mind. This might save a little
time, but could lead to complications.
If the hostage is conscious, then the clone's brain pattern has to be very
accurate. Given that it is possible to clone people, you can assess the
accuracy of duplication by functional imaging.
Consider it an advanced form of identity verification ('biometrics').
In other words, magnetic resonance or PET/SPECT scanning of the brain during
a standardised activity (reading a list of numbers or words off a screen,
for example).
A poor copy will have slight differences in the timing and distribution of
blood flow to the brain, compared to the original.
Sorry about the length of the post.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:54:42 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Kiri Morgan wrote :-
> Just matching the A/B/O blood group isn't nearly safe enough for
> transfusion.
Yes, but matching ABO and Rh is sufficient to get 99% safety.
The 1% reaction rate is going to consist mainly of fevers from white cell
and platelet aggregates, etc. Full-blown haemolytic reactions will be rare,
thankfully.
Matching for the other antigen systems (e.g. P, MNS, the dozens of named
antigens) gains you at best a few tenths of a percent.
Andrew M-V. wrote :-
> Hmm, this raises an interesting point. If the two populations have a
> blood protien that causes the *first* pregnancy to abort, are they
> then seperate species?
Yes, using the conventional definition of a species.
> I thought that there was also a real risk to the mother on the third
> and subsequent pregnancy?
No ; haemolytic disease of the newborn is a form of hypersensitivity
syndrome (Gell and Coombs type 2, to be precise).
The idea of 'immunisation' is to prevent foetal cells from sensitising the
maternal immune system, so anti-D globulin is given to mum at the time of
the first pregnancy. This effectively prevents foetal blood cells from
entering the maternal circulation and staying there long enough to prime the
defenses.
There is a theoretical risk with subsequent pregnancies, but it is very
small. It is not standard obstetric practice to repeat the anti-D treatment.
> Another, interesting point, as the Solomani & Vilani
> intermingled, just what effect would the spread of different blood
> proteins have?
From a clinical standpoint, not a lot. It makes haemolytic disease a little
more likely. Blood and tissues are somewhat more difficult to cross-match.
Solomani medical tech over the period should cope easily.
Hmm...
Thinking about other tissue transplantation, there could be problems with
MHC (Major Histocompatibility Complex) antigens. Certain combinations are
associated with a variety of autoimmune diseases. There may be 'outbreaks'
of arthritis, lupus, etc.
But again, Solomani medical tech should deliver (?TTL10-12?!) over this
period.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 18:05:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Robert O'Connor writes:
> >From the _story_ : 3mg AM to 1400g prop/sec burn
> 800Mg prop carried, so 1.7 kg enclosed in a space 'about as big as a
> kitchen refrigerator'.
>
> I agree that this is ridiculous.
GTL-9 antimatter storage is 500 lb/gram, or 227 grams/mg (681 g/3 mg). That's
about twice as good as Forward's numbers. As written, it doesn't seem
obvious what the minimum size of a storage container is, it seems that you
could have .01 lb antimatter storage units holding 20 micrograms of antimatter
with a nominal yield of 1 ton, and that's light enough you could probably
embed it into a 20mm round and have mass left over for padding.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 21:34:39 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Human/Neanderthal interbreeding
> So, is opinion still strongly divided about modern
> human/neanderthal interbreeding, or have some of the recent
> intermediate skeletons mostly settled that issue?
Last time I consulted John Harshman, PhD, he told me it was still a matter of
some dispute.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:04:50 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: sapiens
That depends on what you mean by variation. A very large
can of several species of worms. :)
Oh. Well, I guess I mean a fairly lay definition. By that, are there are
clear and obvious differences that can be appreciated in the same way as may
seperate modern humans and neanderthals. My point, and this ties into the
taxonomic accuracy bit, that even though we and neanderthal are only
subspecies to each other, we seem to display significant differences. If the
fruitflies species do not vary to the same degree, then claiming a more
significant rate of change for the fruitflies based solely on the technical
classification of those new species, fails to measure the actual changes.
Why should there be more physical change? You have
argued that it is possible that there could be significant
physical changes, but have given no reasons to expect
physical changes greater than those observed on Terra.
Nor it is necessarily true (AFAIK) that Zhodanis are no
more different from Vilani than eskimos are from
bushmen.
I would expect more differences because the species the ancients took sprout
two major decendant lines here on earth. Now, while I know that does not
prove nor even imply that the transplanted populations should drift, at the
same time, given the variety of conditions, as well as the significant time
allowances, that some form of greater change should have been observed.
Thus, I believe that humaniti should display more variation then among
modern terran races for the following reasons.
1) 300,000 years is much more time then current racial populations have
been developing. (After all, 300,000 there were no modern people even.)
2) The range of enviornmental conditions (ecology, gravity, temperature,
and so on) of the forty something transplanted people should be AT LEAST as
varied as any climate conditions on earth. (Not necessary that each
population was exposed to varied enviornments like here on earth, but that
the forty something situations should all display significant differences
between each other.) Neanderthals had significant adaptations to their
enviornment, so why not the rest of transplanted humaniti?
3) The starting point, archaic Homo sapiens, does infact give rise to at
least two significantly different subspecies. This is only on earth, and
within the 300,000 year range. It would seem reasonable to assert that some
transplanted population could take another route.
Jeff Yin
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:37:30 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
>How dense does forward think antimatter storage can be? Space gives a ratio
>of 250,000:1 at TL 9, which is not particularly bad and certainly better than
>any modern system.
Hello Anthony,
Forward doesn't assume that an antimatter containment system weighs more
than what David Pulver hypothesized, he assumes it will be *less* than what
David suggests.
Excerpted from INDISTINGUISHABLE FROM MAGIC (Turn left at the Moon):
The antimatter rocket engine is not much bigger than some of the chemical
rocket engines used on the big boosters back in the 1990's," said the
scotty. "It's three meters in diameter inside the annihilation chamber,
while the bell of the nozzle expands out to ten meters to get the maximum
thrust out of the hot exhaust gases. In each second of operation, the
engine uses 3 milligrams of antimatter to heat fourteen hundred grams of
propellant. The power level is five hundred gigawatts, about fifteen times
the power level of the early Saturn Five moon rockets.
The shuttlecraft moved on to the other side of the thick metal disk about
3 meters in diameter. It was fifteen centimeters thick at the center and
tapered down to a few centimeters thick at the rim. Right in back of the
metal disk was a large rectangle about as big as a kitchen refrigerator.
"The big metal Disk is the radiation shield, while the rectangular box on
the other side is the antimatter storage container"
Forward goes on to explain the mechanics of antimatter reaction with
matter and so on. I don't mind saying that I fully understand that this is
a "story" and that it is likely Forward mangled science a bit in order to
write a story. It is also entirely plausible that he didn't do a lot of
research when he wrote what he wrote. However, he does go on to say in
other parts of his book, that if one were to create a power generation
system using solar panels in space (300 km x 30 km to produce 10 terawatts
of power). His estimate of our "efficiency" in antimatter production would
change from 1 in 60 million to 1 in 10,000 - so I was wrong about his claim
on efficiency change if the antimatter generators were built as an ongoing
commercial concern instead of a precision scientific concern. His estimate
too of how much it would cost per milligram is 10 million dollars per.
According to him, at 10 million per milligram, it would still be cost
effective as a fuel.
Me? I don't know enough about physics one way or another to comment on
Forward's "flights of fantasy" or wild optimism <grin>. What I will say
however, is that it seems odd that in GURPS VEHICLES, antimatter requires
containment systems that are far heavier than fusion power plants (on a
weight per cubic volume basis). At the very least, I'd have expected that
antimatter containment systems would be at worst, as heavy as fusion
plants, not heavier!
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:49:16 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Question on cloning...
Hello Bill,
I've always enjoyed thinking about Cloning and all that goes with it...
1) how does one get a person's clone to be exactly the same height/weight
as the donor's body
2) cancer is the process where a clump of cells grow at a wildly inflated
rate. The implications of forced growth clones is that either we've
conquered cancer, or that we've managed to find the start growth/stop
growth mechanisms.
3) is it ethical to grow a clone and deny him/her it's potential to be a
fully matured and self-sustaining individual of society? And if it is
*not* ethical to grow a clone for spare parts, is it ethical to genetically
manipulate genetic material such that it can never have higher inteligence
functions? It would be fully interesting to see what happens if you modify
a clone body so that it can't start off with a brain, and then use it for
reproductive purposes (Brain transplants anyone?).
4) in issues of personality - if it is possible to force a cell to divide
abnormally such that you now have fraternal twins, such that they develop
separate personalities, why then, is there a fear that a clone of an
individual does not have a soul?
5) in instances where genetic mapping has been done on humankind, and some
2,000 years plus has passed since this was first achieved, would not
mankind know which genes trigger what conditions within the human body?
Would not too, mankind understand what produces psionic ability? And
finally, in a universe where Imperial Nobles have access to cutting edge
technology, would not those individuals seek to use genetic science to
improve their bloodlines?
In case anyone wonders <grin>, yes, I LOVE GURPS BIOTECH...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:59:39 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
>Yes, but from what I understand (how it was explained to my wife and I) is
>that the Rh factor is only important for the *second* and subequent
>children (I stand ready to be corrected). That's a little different from
being
>totally unable to interbreed without medical assistance.
In my family of five kids... Father was Rh Positive, Mother was Rh
Negative (the only way it matters as I understand it, Rh Positive being
dominant)
Firstborn - no problem
Secondborn - no problem
Thirdborn - minor problems
Fourthborn - major problems (some blood transfusion required)
Fifthborn - total blood transfusion required
Guess which one I was in the list <grin>
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 22:57:06 -0500
From: Gordon Hundley <drgoon@netaxs.com>
Subject: Re: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
on 6/3/01 5:08 pm, Jesse Degraff at jedegraf@cisco.com wrote:
>> Cordite loop around the mainboard and a number eight detonator
>> will suffice.
>
> Don't you mean det-cord loop? :) I didn't think cordite came in cord form.
> Mark?
It came in strands like twine, ISTR. My father had a supply in the far East
which he used to demolish old bridges. You could certainly make a loop
because that's what my father once threw into a river for a little bit of
extreme fishing. Once the locals had scooped up a few hundred stunned fish
they held a village feast.
> Yea Gods! Glad I never had to mess with that crap...
Dynix was bile. The SVR4 Dynix/ptx that replaced it was such an improvement
that nobody seemed to notice that it was one of the most bug-ridden
implementations of SVR4 ever released. I fully expect all the bad bits of
SCO SVR5, AIX and Dynix to be distilled together to produce the future IBM
'nix.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:07:17 -0500
From: Gordon Hundley <drgoon@netaxs.com>
Subject: Re: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
on 6/3/01 5:45 pm, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:
> Yeah, det-cord or prima-cord. Cordite is a propellant made from
> nitrocellulose, nitroglycerine and petroleum jelly, usually extruded into
> spaghetti like strands, and used primarily by British and Empire military in
> smallarms and some artillery.
And demolitions work, and of course it wasn't just the military that used
it, the British civil services overseas used it in abundance because (i) it
was invented by a Scot and produced in Britain (ii) it travelled better than
most other blasting powders. It looks like brown twine and it can be rolled
up tightly to make a pretty good amateur rocket propellant. I'm guessing it
would probably be fairly uncommon outside military use today.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:03:04 -0500
From: Gordon Hundley <drgoon@netaxs.com>
Subject: Re: Question on cloning...
on 7/3/01 1:49 am, hal@buffnet.net at hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> 1) how does one get a person's clone to be exactly the same height/weight
> as the donor's body
One doesn't. A clone is another separate organism grown using the same DNA.
For some things, exact is not an option. Why would my clone have the same
environmental inputs as me? The half inch I lose through carrying weights
poorly at a young age may not happen.
> 2) cancer is the process where a clump of cells grow at a wildly inflated
> rate. The implications of forced growth clones is that either we've
> conquered cancer, or that we've managed to find the start growth/stop
> growth mechanisms.
Most likely both, I'd reckon.
> 3) is it ethical to grow a clone and deny him/her it's potential to be a
> fully matured and self-sustaining individual of society? And if it is
> *not* ethical to grow a clone for spare parts, is it ethical to genetically
> manipulate genetic material such that it can never have higher inteligence
> functions? It would be fully interesting to see what happens if you modify
> a clone body so that it can't start off with a brain, and then use it for
> reproductive purposes (Brain transplants anyone?).
It certainly isn't ethical in my book. It's perhaps ethical to grow a
vegetative clone with minimal cerebral functions, but you would have to
suppose that there would be all sorts of complications resulting from that
which would hinder the retrofit of a higher-order cortex. I'd reckon that no
brain at all would be impossible.
> 4) in issues of personality - if it is possible to force a cell to divide
> abnormally such that you now have fraternal twins, such that they develop
> separate personalities, why then, is there a fear that a clone of an
> individual does not have a soul?
Where did that come from? As much as any of us has a soul, a clone has too.
We're talking about another quite distinct animal here. The only difference
is that normal, natural genetic selection has not taken place. Somebody has
done a bit of cutting and pasting to get a genetic match with the donor. In
every other respect, this is a distinct life.
> 5) in instances where genetic mapping has been done on humankind, and some
> 2,000 years plus has passed since this was first achieved, would not
> mankind know which genes trigger what conditions within the human body?
Absolutely. This is the ultimate priority of human genome research.
> Would not too, mankind understand what produces psionic ability? And
> finally, in a universe where Imperial Nobles have access to cutting edge
> technology, would not those individuals seek to use genetic science to
> improve their bloodlines?
You'd have to deal with the psionics thing at an individual referee level.
There are no good guidelines in my opinion. In my mind, psionics are a
fantasy construct that are awkward to deal with in all situations. I'd say
yes, we'd understand psionics at a genetic level, psi powers are not magic
but quite explainable, and that the genetic codes are pandemic. Were they
not universally present but dormant, psionic suppression by the Imperium
would have been enforced by aborting those foetuses that demonstrate the
gene. However, I know of other GMs for whom this is probably not a good
solution. In a Universe where psionic genes are not shared by all, the
Imperium would have to have some higher moral code while they gave the
psionic-skilled a kicking.
And finally, sure, of course they would. ;)
> In case anyone wonders <grin>, yes, I LOVE GURPS BIOTECH...
I don't have it. It's on my (long) wish-list... after the Traveller books
I've yet to get, Ultratech and Vehicles.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:45:25 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: KB3 On the NET!
- --------------E67AC16F65068A9ECAFB2B34
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Just to give everyone an update...
David is using KB3 for his game, and he's doing a fine job of writing a
clear, concise version of the KB3 rules, posting this stuff on his web
site.
He doesn't quite have it all up yet, but he will have soon. He just
sent me a preview of the write up of the rules. He did a very good job,
and it will help you weed out all the mish-mash of stuff that's come
down over the list about KB3 over the last few months.
If you're at all interested in KB3, you can check it out on his web site
at:
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw
Kenneth.
- --------------E67AC16F65068A9ECAFB2B34
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
Just to give everyone an update...

David is using KB3 for his game, and he's doing a fine job of writing
a clear, concise version of the KB3 rules, posting this stuff on his web
site.

He doesn't quite have it all up yet, but he will have soon.&nbsp; He
just sent me a preview of the write up of the rules.&nbsp; He did a very
good job, and it will help you weed out all the mish-mash of stuff that's
come down over the list about KB3 over the last few months.

If you're at all interested in KB3, you can check it out on his web
site at:

http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw

Kenneth.
- --------------E67AC16F65068A9ECAFB2B34--
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:53:50 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Question on cloning...
>> 4) in issues of personality - if it is possible to force a cell to divide
>> abnormally such that you now have fraternal twins, such that they develop
>> separate personalities, why then, is there a fear that a clone of an
>> individual does not have a soul?
>
>Where did that come from? As much as any of us has a soul, a clone has too.
>We're talking about another quite distinct animal here. The only difference
>is that normal, natural genetic selection has not taken place. Somebody has
>done a bit of cutting and pasting to get a genetic match with the donor. In
>every other respect, this is a distinct life.
Hello Gordon,
In answer to "where did that come from?" - my wife and I took a car
journey that lasted several hours, and thus, we enjoyed a rousing
discussion on the various aspects of cloning, mind taping, spinal/brain
transplants, etc. Many of the things we discussed were not just the
technical aspects, but also the likely responses to this "ungodly science"
where man meddles in an area of Divine perogatives. You have merely to
look about you in today's news casts to see that mankind has not totally
emerged from the barbarism of religious guided stupidity. I do not doubt,
that the first human ever created via cloning will face such
discrimination. As I see it, your responses were mainly rational and well
thought out. The only problem I have with your matter of fact presentation
of your viewpoints - the emotionally guided individual will not be swayed
by logic, but by emotions.
If you can, get your hands on GURPS BIOTECH and soon. There are a lot of
things in there worth considering for a science fiction campaign.
Hal
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3775
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3776
Date: | 3/7/01 4:25:58 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, March 7 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3776
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
Scramjet
Re: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)
Re: New law in Australia
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Re: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Re: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Re: New law in Australia
Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Re: Question on cloning...
Re: Question on cloning...
Crusades of the Future
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
RE: Astrogation design
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Introduction
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Ginger = Stirling Engine?
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Re: Cordite loops
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:36:19 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Rob wrote :
>
> Now all we need is a way to cross this with the "Hot Fusion in a
> can" thread...
Well, "Hot fusion in a can" sounds like a good slogan for a drink of some
sort !
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:43:58 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> GTL-9 antimatter storage is 500 lb/gram, or 227 grams/mg (681 g/3
> mg). That's about twice as good as Forward's numbers.
Only if a 'kitchen refrigerator' weighs over 400 tonnes (for a
density of more than 50 times that of lead). Are you sure you aren't
confusing grams with kilograms, or with pounds?
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:53:25 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:
> Rob wrote :
> >
> > Now all we need is a way to cross this with the "Hot Fusion in a
> > can" thread...
>
> Well, "Hot fusion in a can" sounds like a good slogan for a drink of some
> sort !
>
Probably some sort of self heating coffee/alcohol drink, "turn can over, rip
off tab, turn can upright, wait and remove lid...caution contents are hot..."
"Cold fusion in a can would be the same, but an iced coffee version..."
DS...can we have this in our game?
Rob
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 07:56:18
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
My attempt at the nose art for the Mahina Tiare is done, flowers and all. It
is posted at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/j_lambert/NoseArt.htm
Bill, thanks again for the interesting project.
John
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:34:28 -0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: Scramjet
Thought the list may be interested in an article from the University of
Queensland regarding testing of a scramjet.
You can find it at
http://www.uq.edu.au/research/research-report/research2000-blast.htm
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:42:30 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)
Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote
> >And if they did, why experiment with only archaic Homo sapiens?
>
> 1) It was the most adaptable of the hominids the Ancients found, so they stuck
> to them.
>
> 2) As above, but samples of the other species were taken. However, none of them
> survived into historic times.
>
> 3) As 2), but some survived. They just haven't been found yet.
>
> 4) As 3) and some of them have been found. Note that this last one would
> defintiely be contrary to canon.
IIRC Canon says only that none of the _surviving_ races were
not Homo Sapiens. Therefore:
5) All samples of other species that survived into historical times
and were discovered were exterminated or died off after discovery
but before the date (probably about 1105 Imperial or so) of
the canon statements.
Should also be possible, shouldn't it?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:46:53 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: New law in Australia
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote
> >As you may, or may not be aware, it is now illegal in Australia to forward
> >email without explicit permission of it's author. You face fines up to
> >$60000 and 5 years in gaol.
> >To protect other people, I recommend you use a stationay such as this one
> ><name> <phone>
> >Copyright © <ccyy>
> >Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this
> >document, but changing it is not allowed.
Does editing someone's email, as I did above constitute
'changing it' under the applicable law? If so you may want
to allow editing as well so that people don't have to include
your entire message with theirs.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:01:44 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
"Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com> wrote
> Subject: RE: >
>
> >ps: Why should *I* care if Claudia Schiffer serves it?
>
> Well, broken engagement or not, she could probably get you that hunk David
> Copperfield's home phone number....
While Kiri may have what David is looking for, she does not
have it as, er, original equipment....
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:10:44 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
On 6 Mar 2001, at 14:08, Jesse Degraff wrote:
> > Cordite loop around the mainboard and a number eight detonator
> > will suffice.
>
> Don't you mean det-cord loop? :) I didn't think cordite came in cord form.
> Mark?
I can't imagine cordite doing much good. Besides it comes in little rods like
pencil leads (for .303 rounds) or larger rods (for artillery).
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:10:44 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
On 6 Mar 2001, at 14:45, Tod Glenn wrote:
> Yeah, det-cord or prima-cord. Cordite is a propellant made from
> nitrocellulose, nitroglycerine and petroleum jelly, usually extruded into
> spaghetti like strands, and used primarily by British and Empire military in
> smallarms and some artillery.
>
> The combustion byproducts have a characteristic 'tangy' odor, the "reek of
> cordite".
If you get some genuine Mark VII .303 rounds and disect them you'll find it's a
nice browny-orage colour. Also if you examine the rods closely you'll see
little holes than run down the length of the rods (which are about 1.5" long,
IIRC). Considering that it was invented before WWI (again, IIRC) it's quite
high-tech stuff.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:10:44 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
On 6 Mar 2001, at 10:12, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> On top of that, I lived in a 3.2 beer state in my teens. If you've never
> experienced the misery that is 3.2 beer, count yourself very, very lucky.
I presume that this means something along the lines of "no beer is allowed more
than 3.2% alcohol"? If so I sympathise - even weak modern NZ beers make 4%
(some arsehole did this survey that concluded that we like our beer at 4.5% and
under, and some even bigger arsehole listened).
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:15:24 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: New law in Australia
Peter Newman wrote:
> Does editing someone's email, as I did above constitute
> 'changing it' under the applicable law? If so you may want
> to allow editing as well so that people don't have to include
> your entire message with theirs.
Don't forget adding "> " marks at the beginning of each line, not to
mention the automatic word wrapping that some email readers do. Not
that it would matter much -- "fair use" includes quoting excepts of a
copyrighted work for comment, at least under what I believe of
Australian law.
- - Tim
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:24:24 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Anthony Jackson wrote :-
> As written, it doesn't seem obvious what the minimum size of a
> storage container is,...
The limit would appear to be the support structures required to keep the
antihydrogen cold. Turbulence experiments aside, how small can we make Dewar
flasks containing liquid helium?
Are there any plausible alternative storage media?
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 01:23:53 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Question on cloning...
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Hello Bill,
> I've always enjoyed thinking about Cloning and all that goes with
> it...
>
> 1) how does one get a person's clone to be exactly the same
> height/weight as the donor's body
I imagine this would be possible, especially with grav technology.
If you are using growth quickening, you simply monitor the clone's
development, adjust nutrients and gravity to compensate, and you'll
likely get height and weight within the normal amount of variation
that everyone has.
> 2) cancer is the process where a clump of cells grow at a wildly
> inflated rate. The implications of forced growth clones is that
> either we've conquered cancer, or that we've managed to find the start
> growth/stop growth mechanisms.
Given that growth quickening is TL 10, I'd say that cancer will be
basically a somewhat nasty historical curiosity, much like yaws,
smallpox, and scarlet fever are today.
> 3) is it ethical to grow a clone and deny him/her it's potential to be
> a fully matured and self-sustaining individual of society?
Highly dubious at best, and probably something that should be
considered immoral.
> And if it
> is *not* ethical to grow a clone for spare parts, is it ethical to
> genetically manipulate genetic material such that it can never have
> higher inteligence functions?
Why would this be unethical? All you have a hunk of brainless
meat that was never anything more than this. Unless a society
rules that genetic engineering of all sorts is immoral to use on
sentients (a both foolish and unlikely to be popular choice) doing
so sees ethically neutral. Given that you primarily do this sort of
thing to provide medical treatment for the donor I see it as a moral
and ethical good.
> It would be fully interesting to see
> what happens if you modify a clone body so that it can't start off
> with a brain, and then use it for reproductive purposes (Brain
> transplants anyone?).
I doubt you could create a brainless clone that could accept a
brain. However, a head transplant might work. Sort of gruesome,
but likely possible (perhaps some of the folks having their heads
frozen will end up like this).
> 4) in issues of personality - if it is possible to force a cell to
> divide abnormally such that you now have fraternal twins, such that
> they develop separate personalities, why then, is there a fear that a
> clone of an individual does not have a soul?
I've not heard that fear outside of folks who have no real clue about
what cloning is.
> 5) in instances where genetic mapping has been done on humankind, and
> some 2,000 years plus has passed since this was first achieved, would
> not mankind know which genes trigger what conditions within the human
> body? Would not too, mankind understand what produces psionic ability?
> And finally, in a universe where Imperial Nobles have access to
> cutting edge technology, would not those individuals seek to use
> genetic science to improve their bloodlines?
Psionics might not be genetic at all. Perhaps you merely need to
be exposed to just the right amount of psionic energy (insert any
other form of actual or handwaved radiation here) at the right point
in fetal or early childhood development to induce psionic latancy. If
the exact mechanism is subtle and complex enough (perhaps
exposure to a series of specific circumstances in a particular order
is required) then it might still remain a mystery even at TL 16.
Intelligence is clearly not purely a genetic phenomena, perhaps
psionics is similar but even more environmentally determined.
As for genetic engineering. Some MegaTraveller material indicates
that this has been done on a local level. However, clearly Vilani-
influenced Imperial culture frowns on such things.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:57:47 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Question on cloning...
On 6 Mar 2001, at 22:49, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Hello Bill,
> I've always enjoyed thinking about Cloning and all that goes with it...
>
> 1) how does one get a person's clone to be exactly the same height/weight as
> the donor's body
By duplicating the effects environmental factor that effected the original
> 2) cancer is the process where a clump of cells grow at a wildly inflated
> rate. The implications of forced growth clones is that either we've conquered
> cancer, or that we've managed to find the start growth/stop growth mechanisms.
Yep, pretty much does.
> 3) is it ethical to grow a clone and deny him/her it's potential to be a
> fully matured and self-sustaining individual of society? And if it is
> *not* ethical to grow a clone for spare parts, is it ethical to genetically
> manipulate genetic material such that it can never have higher inteligence
> functions? It would be fully interesting to see what happens if you modify a
> clone body so that it can't start off with a brain, and then use it for
> reproductive purposes (Brain transplants anyone?).
Me personally, I'd say not (same situation as bringing a child into the world
and then denying him/her the ability to achieve their full potential).
However, the existance of cloned doubles for Nobles clearly shows that the
Thrid Imperium does not share my ethical viewpoint <g>
> 4) in issues of personality - if it is possible to force a cell to divide
> abnormally such that you now have fraternal twins, such that they develop
> separate personalities, why then, is there a fear that a clone of an
> individual does not have a soul?
Interesting (and potentially explosive) question. I'd say that it requires more
than one cell to posses a soul. Actually this very dilema is going to be one
of the plot lines in my Prometheus Rising work.
> 5) in instances where genetic mapping has been done on humankind, and some
> 2,000 years plus has passed since this was first achieved, would not mankind
> know which genes trigger what conditions within the human body? Would not too,
> mankind understand what produces psionic ability? And finally, in a universe
> where Imperial Nobles have access to cutting edge technology, would not those
> individuals seek to use genetic science to improve their bloodlines?
Doubtless it does happen (IIRC correctly, there are even canonical
examples) but its similar to excessive use of anagathics by Nobles. A
Noble can pobably get away with it to a limited extent, but social/cultural
pressures prevent it from being widespread (the masses do not want to be
ruled by a geneetically engineered and/or immortal elite from which they
are excluded).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 06:29:00 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Crusades of the Future
I couldn't help noticing recently that while religon is a hot button issue so
are programming languages. It occured to me that in some societies, particularly
high tech ones, various programming languages could reflect (or even cause)
philosophical differences within or between societies that might lead to
conflict. Perhaps even violent conflict.
Ben
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:25:29 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
I don't want to interrupt a good rant - you all seem to be enjoying it
so much - but way back a long while ago the question was (basically)
"can you suggest a programme I could write for Traveller in VB?". Can
anyone actually help the poor chap?
- --
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:26:42 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Astrogation design
Paul Campbell wrote:
> Why are you using char(2) for you id fields instead of an integer
> field of some sort? Especially one tied to a Sequence. ('Autonumber'
> in Access lingo)
Three reasons:
1) There is an obscure star id code (used in some Gamelords
products) that starts with a 2 character sector code. By
using 2 character sector id codes right from the start I can
add this in relatively easily when I get to writting that part
of my half finished program. (Trivial, but why make life hard
for youself unneccessarily?)
2) Habit. As a mainframe programmer working on legacy I usually
have to use indexed files rather than an RDBMS. Thus, there
is no formatted display utility for a file (unless you write
one and you usually don't have the time). So when debugging
you sometimes look at the contents of your file in a text
editor. Numbers stored in binary are fairly indecipherable,
but ascii character fields are okay. So by habit I always
make key fields ascii text.
3) Although I started this project using an Access database I do
not have the Access program. I was using an example program
that shipped with VB4(Prof) as a utility to create an Access
database and the structures within. So I didn't know there
was an autonumber feature. And maintaining sequence numbers
manually is a chore.
> > Subsector Position Table
>
> Any particular reason why this isn't part of the Subsector Table? I'm
> not saying you don't have a reason, I just don't see it.
As a "good little programmer" I try to put as much of my data in
"third normal form" as possible (then denormalise when
performance is an issue). The subsector codes (from A to P) have
fixed positions (as established by canon).
For example: Subsector C of the Spinward Marches is the Regina
subsector. Subsector C of the Trojan Reach is the Pax Rulin
subsector. Each would have its own separate entry in the
Subsector Table, yet both have their relative position (third
along on the top row) the same. Thus, data normalisation says
this is a separate data entity ... you should only store this
once (in the Subsector Position Table) for *all* subsector Cs.
> > Border Table
>
> I'd suggest putting the Alignment in the System Table unless you
> specifically want to allocate Alignements to empty hexes.
Exactly. The best way I could come up with to implement borders
that matched published canon was to allocate allignments to empty
hexs (which I know sounds kind of dumb when you first think of
it). Check out the screenshot on StuffOnline for an example of
the Jewell subsector as displayed in my half finished program ...
complete with borders.
> > Hex Position Table
>
> I don't understand what this last table represents.
I was building some data importers I noticed some file formats
favour numbering hexs over the whole sector (from 0101 to 3240)
... aka "sector hex". I had decided to go with numbering hexs
over subsectors as in the early LBBs (from 0101 to 0810) ... aka
"subsector hex" ...plus using the letter codes (from A to P) for
subsectors. This table translates system hex to/from subsector
id and subsector hex. I could have implemented this as code but
I chose this solution.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:33:15 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Mark Preston wrote:
> I don't want to interrupt a good rant - you all seem to be enjoying it
> so much - but way back a long while ago the question was (basically)
> "can you suggest a programme I could write for Traveller in VB?". Can
> anyone actually help the poor chap?
I did (but it was possibly drowned out in the noise). I
suggested a COACC vehicle builder. Actually, I suggested an MT
vehicle builder similar to Rob Prior's utility but with emphesis
on the various add-ins especially COACC. Its the COACC
functionality I really want.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 00:39:57 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
On 7 Mar 2001, at 11:33, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> Mark Preston wrote:
> > I don't want to interrupt a good rant - you all seem to be enjoying it
> > so much - but way back a long while ago the question was (basically)
> > "can you suggest a programme I could write for Traveller in VB?". Can
> > anyone actually help the poor chap?
> I did (but it was possibly drowned out in the noise). I
> suggested a COACC vehicle builder. Actually, I suggested an MT
> vehicle builder similar to Rob Prior's utility but with emphesis
> on the various add-ins especially COACC. Its the COACC
> functionality I really want.
Yes I did get it and I am working on it. At the moment I'm just starting the
detailed design. I expect to start coding in a month or so.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:52:49 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> Frank Pitt wrote:
> > Beginners should never be taught C or assembly language.
>
> Well, I disagree; maybe they shouldn't be taught C first-thing,
> but they should probably learn it before they get too far into
> the higher-level languages -- if they want to be as flexible and
> adaptable as possible.
>
> But today, most apps are written in C and C++. Heavily disciplined
> use of C++ can just about eliminate explicit pointer management,
> but any programmer in the real world is eventually going to be
> exposed to plain old pointers, and I'd really really prefer it if
> they'd learn the concepts, even if it were as "crude and unsafe
> but rebindable references".
>
> Pointer education is like sex education -- you can pretend the
> subject doesn't exist, but the kids are going to be exposed to
> it eventually.
I've been a professional programmer since 1987, worked for the
construction industry, automotive, telecoms, several merchant
banks, software houses, and multinationals. My question is this:
what's a "pointer"?
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 04:07:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Introduction
Greetings All,
Just a quick post to say hello and introduce myself to the list. My name is Antaine, and I am 34 yo bloke from Australia. I have played Traveller since around 80-81 but due to a real time Military career, I have been "away" from gaming for quite a few years. I am just re-involving myself and having found Downport.com, followed my nose and wound up in mIRC and now here. (Thanks Jeff for your advice on the major-domo error)
I am a CT player and once I am back into the groove so to speak, I'll be running a game or two. I have to face the huge challenge now of finding some people for face to face gaming. Any Aussies in NSW feel free to e-mail me off-list and maybe we can arrange something.
For the rest on the list, I usually post only if I have something to say or a question to ask, but hope to get to know a few fellow Sophonts around the globe.
Respectfully,
Antaine.
<geek code to follow>
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:07:17 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> Yes I did get it and I am working on it. At the moment I'm just starting
the
> detailed design. I expect to start coding in a month or so.
Cool. :-)
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 07:15:51 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Ginger = Stirling Engine?
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/066/nation/Inventor_s_clues_fuel_talk_that_ideal_engine_is_near+.shtml
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:23 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10103061554120.16632-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
Even 1st pregnancies can have their risks (and this is when breeding with
someone who - as far as I know - is the same species!). You can develop a
condition called pre-eclampsia, which simply put is the
pregnancy equivalent of transplant organ rejection - the mother's body
rejects the baby inside and the only treatment is to get it out FAST. If
you're lucky, the baby is in a viable state. It is a killer, the mother
will be dead in hours if the baby is not removed.
It normally happens on a first pregnancy only. However, if you change
partners and get pregnant again, it can recur. Dunno. No plans to change
partner!
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
(In case you worry, we were lucky - the baby survived. She's now 4 and
already interested in roleplayinG!)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:23 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010306225939.006a7088@buffnet.net>
Greetings dear hearts.
As I understand the Rh factors, Hal is correct. If the parents are
different (one Rh+, the other Rh-), the first child will be born (at least
as far as THAT problem is concerned) without difficulty. However, leakage
of foetal cells into the mother's bloodstream sensitises her so that when
a second pregnancy begins antibodies are developed to the foetal blood of
the child within her. Hence what is popularly refered to as a 'blue baby'
who needs immediate and possibly massive transfusion on arrival into this
world.
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:23 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Cordite loops
In-Reply-To: <B6CB1E21.49A5%drgoon@netaxs.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
Det/prima-cord is very useful... but quite hard to get hold of :-(
Makes good cutting charges for things like building entry. If you are
doing house clearance, the standard method is NOT to go in by the door -
the enemy sort of expect that. So you use a frame charge which is
basically prima-cord on a square wood frame (pre-prepared) to make a
'mousehole' through which you first post a couple of grenades and then
effect your entry.
A similar trick - only with lesser amounts of explosive - is used to blow
out windows during hostage rescue operations. Oh, and you usually chuck
'flash-bangs' rather than explosive grenades. The hostages prefer it!
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3776
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3777
Date: | 3/7/01 5:24:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, March 7 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3777
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Crusades of the Future
Re: Cordite loops
Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3776
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:23:18 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Crusades of the Future
Ben Aaronovitch wrote:
> I couldn't help noticing recently that while religon is a hot
> button issue so are programming languages. It occured to me that
> in some societies, particularly high tech ones, various programming
> languages could reflect (or even cause) philosophical differences
> within or between societies that might lead to conflict. Perhaps
> even violent conflict.
Until recently I would have said that was a very silly idea. But
now ...
Obviously Star Trek got it wrong when they portrayed Mr Spock as
a calm logical computer expert ... it seems that in RL there
ain't no such thing! You can just imagine the fisticuffs
breaking out during a symposium at the Vulcan Academy of Science.
ObTrav: Programming languages ... the real reason behind the
Rebellion. Strephon liked proprietry languages (anything MS)
with their support and large user base, Dulinor thought everyone
would benefit from the virtues of platform-independant Java, and
Lucan was secretly just a malicious script-kiddie (who unleashed
Mellissa 2).
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 04:35:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Cordite loops
- --- mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
> wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <B6CB1E21.49A5%drgoon@netaxs.com>
>Greetings dear hearts.
>
>Det/prima-cord is very useful... but quite hard to get hold of :-(
>
>Makes good cutting charges for things like building entry. If you are
>doing house clearance, the standard method is NOT to go in by the door -
>the enemy sort of expect that. So you use a frame charge which is
>basically prima-cord on a square wood frame (pre-prepared) to make a
>'mousehole' through which you first post a couple of grenades and then
>effect your entry.
A similar method is to use a satchel shaped charge combining det cord and plastic to blow the mouse hole. This can save on grenades as there is a greater generation of shrapnel from the wall. ;o) Problem here is that it is time intensive in preperation in relation to the frame/det cord method.
Respectfully,
Antaine.
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 12:43:05 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise
Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> writes:
> Actually, there are people who claim exactly that. Unfortunately,
> terms like "subspecies" carry emotional luggage. I believe that
> "subspecies" is more difficult to define than species, but where
> humans are involved there are even more complications.
Total layman's question: are the different breeds of dog, like
chihuahuas, great danes, etc, considered to be subspecies or "races"?
ObTrav: the possibility of subspecies of Vargr, naturally...
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 13:23:24
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3776
>For the rest on the list, I usually post only if I have something to >say
>or a question to ask, but hope to get to know a few fellow >Sophonts around
>the globe.
>Respectfully,
>Antaine.
<geek code to follow>
Welcome to the list...
Mike
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Traveller-digest Wednesday, March 7 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3776
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
Scramjet
Re: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)
Re: New law in Australia
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Re: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Re: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Re: New law in Australia
Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Re: Question on cloning...
Re: Question on cloning...
Crusades of the Future
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
RE: Astrogation design
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Introduction
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Ginger = Stirling Engine?
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Re: Cordite loops
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:36:19 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Rob wrote :
>
> Now all we need is a way to cross this with the "Hot Fusion in a
> can" thread...
Well, "Hot fusion in a can" sounds like a good slogan for a drink of some
sort !
Frankie
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:43:58 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> GTL-9 antimatter storage is 500 lb/gram, or 227 grams/mg (681 g/3
> mg). That's about twice as good as Forward's numbers.
Only if a 'kitchen refrigerator' weighs over 400 tonnes (for a
density of more than 50 times that of lead). Are you sure you aren't
confusing grams with kilograms, or with pounds?
- - --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so-
kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:53:25 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:
> Rob wrote :
> >
> > Now all we need is a way to cross this with the "Hot Fusion in a
> > can" thread...
>
> Well, "Hot fusion in a can" sounds like a good slogan for a drink of some
> sort !
>
Probably some sort of self heating coffee/alcohol drink, "turn can over, rip
off tab, turn can upright, wait and remove lid...caution contents are
hot..."
"Cold fusion in a can would be the same, but an iced coffee version..."
DS...can we have this in our game?
Rob
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 07:56:18
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
My attempt at the nose art for the Mahina Tiare is done, flowers and all. It
is posted at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/j_lambert/NoseArt.htm
Bill, thanks again for the interesting project.
John
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:34:28 -0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: Scramjet
Thought the list may be interested in an article from the University of
Queensland regarding testing of a scramjet.
You can find it at
http://www.uq.edu.au/research/research-report/research2000-blast.htm
Antony
- ------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:42:30 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Ancients Era (Was: Sapiens)
Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote
> >And if they did, why experiment with only archaic Homo sapiens?
>
> 1) It was the most adaptable of the hominids the Ancients found, so they
stuck
> to them.
>
> 2) As above, but samples of the other species were taken. However, none
of them
> survived into historic times.
>
> 3) As 2), but some survived. They just haven't been found yet.
>
> 4) As 3) and some of them have been found. Note that this last one would
> defintiely be contrary to canon.
IIRC Canon says only that none of the _surviving_ races were
not Homo Sapiens. Therefore:
5) All samples of other species that survived into historical times
and were discovered were exterminated or died off after discovery
but before the date (probably about 1105 Imperial or so) of
the canon statements.
Should also be possible, shouldn't it?
- ------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 23:46:53 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: New law in Australia
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote
> >As you may, or may not be aware, it is now illegal in Australia to
forward
> >email without explicit permission of it's author. You face fines up to
> >$60000 and 5 years in gaol.
> >To protect other people, I recommend you use a stationay such as this
one
> ><name> <phone>
> >Copyright © <ccyy>
> >Everyone is permitted to copy and distribute verbatim copies of this
> >document, but changing it is not allowed.
Does editing someone's email, as I did above constitute
'changing it' under the applicable law? If so you may want
to allow editing as well so that people don't have to include
your entire message with theirs.
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 00:01:44 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
"Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com> wrote
> Subject: RE: >
>
> >ps: Why should *I* care if Claudia Schiffer serves it?
>
> Well, broken engagement or not, she could probably get you that hunk
David
> Copperfield's home phone number....
While Kiri may have what David is looking for, she does not
have it as, er, original equipment....
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:10:44 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
On 6 Mar 2001, at 14:08, Jesse Degraff wrote:
> > Cordite loop around the mainboard and a number eight detonator
> > will suffice.
>
> Don't you mean det-cord loop? :) I didn't think cordite came in cord
form.
> Mark?
I can't imagine cordite doing much good. Besides it comes in little rods
like
pencil leads (for .303 rounds) or larger rods (for artillery).
- - --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:10:44 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
On 6 Mar 2001, at 14:45, Tod Glenn wrote:
> Yeah, det-cord or prima-cord. Cordite is a propellant made from
> nitrocellulose, nitroglycerine and petroleum jelly, usually extruded into
> spaghetti like strands, and used primarily by British and Empire military
in
> smallarms and some artillery.
>
> The combustion byproducts have a characteristic 'tangy' odor, the "reek
of
> cordite".
If you get some genuine Mark VII .303 rounds and disect them you'll find
it's a
nice browny-orage colour. Also if you examine the rods closely you'll see
little holes than run down the length of the rods (which are about 1.5"
long,
IIRC). Considering that it was invented before WWI (again, IIRC) it's quite
high-tech stuff.
- - --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:10:44 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
On 6 Mar 2001, at 10:12, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> On top of that, I lived in a 3.2 beer state in my teens. If you've never
> experienced the misery that is 3.2 beer, count yourself very, very lucky.
I presume that this means something along the lines of "no beer is allowed
more
than 3.2% alcohol"? If so I sympathise - even weak modern NZ beers make 4%
(some arsehole did this survey that concluded that we like our beer at 4.5%
and
under, and some even bigger arsehole listened).
- - --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:15:24 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: New law in Australia
Peter Newman wrote:
> Does editing someone's email, as I did above constitute
> 'changing it' under the applicable law? If so you may want
> to allow editing as well so that people don't have to include
> your entire message with theirs.
Don't forget adding "> " marks at the beginning of each line, not to
mention the automatic word wrapping that some email readers do. Not
that it would matter much -- "fair use" includes quoting excepts of a
copyrighted work for comment, at least under what I believe of
Australian law.
- - - Tim
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:24:24 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Anthony Jackson wrote :-
> As written, it doesn't seem obvious what the minimum size of a
> storage container is,...
The limit would appear to be the support structures required to keep the
antihydrogen cold. Turbulence experiments aside, how small can we make Dewar
flasks containing liquid helium?
Are there any plausible alternative storage media?
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 01:23:53 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Question on cloning...
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Hello Bill,
> I've always enjoyed thinking about Cloning and all that goes with
> it...
>
> 1) how does one get a person's clone to be exactly the same
> height/weight as the donor's body
I imagine this would be possible, especially with grav technology.
If you are using growth quickening, you simply monitor the clone's
development, adjust nutrients and gravity to compensate, and you'll
likely get height and weight within the normal amount of variation
that everyone has.
> 2) cancer is the process where a clump of cells grow at a wildly
> inflated rate. The implications of forced growth clones is that
> either we've conquered cancer, or that we've managed to find the start
> growth/stop growth mechanisms.
Given that growth quickening is TL 10, I'd say that cancer will be
basically a somewhat nasty historical curiosity, much like yaws,
smallpox, and scarlet fever are today.
> 3) is it ethical to grow a clone and deny him/her it's potential to be
> a fully matured and self-sustaining individual of society?
Highly dubious at best, and probably something that should be
considered immoral.
> And if it
> is *not* ethical to grow a clone for spare parts, is it ethical to
> genetically manipulate genetic material such that it can never have
> higher inteligence functions?
Why would this be unethical? All you have a hunk of brainless
meat that was never anything more than this. Unless a society
rules that genetic engineering of all sorts is immoral to use on
sentients (a both foolish and unlikely to be popular choice) doing
so sees ethically neutral. Given that you primarily do this sort of
thing to provide medical treatment for the donor I see it as a moral
and ethical good.
> It would be fully interesting to see
> what happens if you modify a clone body so that it can't start off
> with a brain, and then use it for reproductive purposes (Brain
> transplants anyone?).
I doubt you could create a brainless clone that could accept a
brain. However, a head transplant might work. Sort of gruesome,
but likely possible (perhaps some of the folks having their heads
frozen will end up like this).
> 4) in issues of personality - if it is possible to force a cell to
> divide abnormally such that you now have fraternal twins, such that
> they develop separate personalities, why then, is there a fear that a
> clone of an individual does not have a soul?
I've not heard that fear outside of folks who have no real clue about
what cloning is.
> 5) in instances where genetic mapping has been done on humankind, and
> some 2,000 years plus has passed since this was first achieved, would
> not mankind know which genes trigger what conditions within the human
> body? Would not too, mankind understand what produces psionic ability?
> And finally, in a universe where Imperial Nobles have access to
> cutting edge technology, would not those individuals seek to use
> genetic science to improve their bloodlines?
Psionics might not be genetic at all. Perhaps you merely need to
be exposed to just the right amount of psionic energy (insert any
other form of actual or handwaved radiation here) at the right point
in fetal or early childhood development to induce psionic latancy. If
the exact mechanism is subtle and complex enough (perhaps
exposure to a series of specific circumstances in a particular order
is required) then it might still remain a mystery even at TL 16.
Intelligence is clearly not purely a genetic phenomena, perhaps
psionics is similar but even more environmentally determined.
As for genetic engineering. Some MegaTraveller material indicates
that this has been done on a local level. However, clearly Vilani-
influenced Imperial culture frowns on such things.
- - -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:57:47 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Question on cloning...
On 6 Mar 2001, at 22:49, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Hello Bill,
> I've always enjoyed thinking about Cloning and all that goes with it...
>
> 1) how does one get a person's clone to be exactly the same height/weight
as
> the donor's body
By duplicating the effects environmental factor that effected the original
> 2) cancer is the process where a clump of cells grow at a wildly inflated
> rate. The implications of forced growth clones is that either we've
conquered
> cancer, or that we've managed to find the start growth/stop growth
mechanisms.
Yep, pretty much does.
> 3) is it ethical to grow a clone and deny him/her it's potential to be a
> fully matured and self-sustaining individual of society? And if it is
> *not* ethical to grow a clone for spare parts, is it ethical to
genetically
> manipulate genetic material such that it can never have higher
inteligence
> functions? It would be fully interesting to see what happens if you
modify a
> clone body so that it can't start off with a brain, and then use it for
> reproductive purposes (Brain transplants anyone?).
Me personally, I'd say not (same situation as bringing a child into the
world
and then denying him/her the ability to achieve their full potential).
However, the existance of cloned doubles for Nobles clearly shows that the
Thrid Imperium does not share my ethical viewpoint <g>
> 4) in issues of personality - if it is possible to force a cell to divide
> abnormally such that you now have fraternal twins, such that they develop
> separate personalities, why then, is there a fear that a clone of an
> individual does not have a soul?
Interesting (and potentially explosive) question. I'd say that it requires
more
than one cell to posses a soul. Actually this very dilema is going to be one
of the plot lines in my Prometheus Rising work.
> 5) in instances where genetic mapping has been done on humankind, and
some
> 2,000 years plus has passed since this was first achieved, would not
mankind
> know which genes trigger what conditions within the human body? Would not
too,
> mankind understand what produces psionic ability? And finally, in a
universe
> where Imperial Nobles have access to cutting edge technology, would not
those
> individuals seek to use genetic science to improve their bloodlines?
Doubtless it does happen (IIRC correctly, there are even canonical
examples) but its similar to excessive use of anagathics by Nobles. A
Noble can pobably get away with it to a limited extent, but social/cultural
pressures prevent it from being widespread (the masses do not want to be
ruled by a geneetically engineered and/or immortal elite from which they
are excluded).
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 06:29:00 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Crusades of the Future
I couldn't help noticing recently that while religon is a hot button issue
so
are programming languages. It occured to me that in some societies,
particularly
high tech ones, various programming languages could reflect (or even cause)
philosophical differences within or between societies that might lead to
conflict. Perhaps even violent conflict.
Ben
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
- ------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 15:25:29 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
I don't want to interrupt a good rant - you all seem to be enjoying it
so much - but way back a long while ago the question was (basically)
"can you suggest a programme I could write for Traveller in VB?". Can
anyone actually help the poor chap?
- - --
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:26:42 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Astrogation design
Paul Campbell wrote:
> Why are you using char(2) for you id fields instead of an integer
> field of some sort? Especially one tied to a Sequence. ('Autonumber'
> in Access lingo)
Three reasons:
1) There is an obscure star id code (used in some Gamelords
products) that starts with a 2 character sector code. By
using 2 character sector id codes right from the start I can
add this in relatively easily when I get to writting that part
of my half finished program. (Trivial, but why make life hard
for youself unneccessarily?)
2) Habit. As a mainframe programmer working on legacy I usually
have to use indexed files rather than an RDBMS. Thus, there
is no formatted display utility for a file (unless you write
one and you usually don't have the time). So when debugging
you sometimes look at the contents of your file in a text
editor. Numbers stored in binary are fairly indecipherable,
but ascii character fields are okay. So by habit I always
make key fields ascii text.
3) Although I started this project using an Access database I do
not have the Access program. I was using an example program
that shipped with VB4(Prof) as a utility to create an Access
database and the structures within. So I didn't know there
was an autonumber feature. And maintaining sequence numbers
manually is a chore.
> > Subsector Position Table
>
> Any particular reason why this isn't part of the Subsector Table? I'm
> not saying you don't have a reason, I just don't see it.
As a "good little programmer" I try to put as much of my data in
"third normal form" as possible (then denormalise when
performance is an issue). The subsector codes (from A to P) have
fixed positions (as established by canon).
For example: Subsector C of the Spinward Marches is the Regina
subsector. Subsector C of the Trojan Reach is the Pax Rulin
subsector. Each would have its own separate entry in the
Subsector Table, yet both have their relative position (third
along on the top row) the same. Thus, data normalisation says
this is a separate data entity ... you should only store this
once (in the Subsector Position Table) for *all* subsector Cs.
> > Border Table
>
> I'd suggest putting the Alignment in the System Table unless you
> specifically want to allocate Alignements to empty hexes.
Exactly. The best way I could come up with to implement borders
that matched published canon was to allocate allignments to empty
hexs (which I know sounds kind of dumb when you first think of
it). Check out the screenshot on StuffOnline for an example of
the Jewell subsector as displayed in my half finished program ...
complete with borders.
> > Hex Position Table
>
> I don't understand what this last table represents.
I was building some data importers I noticed some file formats
favour numbering hexs over the whole sector (from 0101 to 3240)
... aka "sector hex". I had decided to go with numbering hexs
over subsectors as in the early LBBs (from 0101 to 0810) ... aka
"subsector hex" ...plus using the letter codes (from A to P) for
subsectors. This table translates system hex to/from subsector
id and subsector hex. I could have implemented this as code but
I chose this solution.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:33:15 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Mark Preston wrote:
> I don't want to interrupt a good rant - you all seem to be enjoying it
> so much - but way back a long while ago the question was (basically)
> "can you suggest a programme I could write for Traveller in VB?". Can
> anyone actually help the poor chap?
I did (but it was possibly drowned out in the noise). I
suggested a COACC vehicle builder. Actually, I suggested an MT
vehicle builder similar to Rob Prior's utility but with emphesis
on the various add-ins especially COACC. Its the COACC
functionality I really want.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
- ------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 00:39:57 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
On 7 Mar 2001, at 11:33, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> Mark Preston wrote:
> > I don't want to interrupt a good rant - you all seem to be enjoying it
> > so much - but way back a long while ago the question was (basically)
> > "can you suggest a programme I could write for Traveller in VB?". Can
> > anyone actually help the poor chap?
> I did (but it was possibly drowned out in the noise). I
> suggested a COACC vehicle builder. Actually, I suggested an MT
> vehicle builder similar to Rob Prior's utility but with emphesis
> on the various add-ins especially COACC. Its the COACC
> functionality I really want.
Yes I did get it and I am working on it. At the moment I'm just starting the
detailed design. I expect to start coding in a month or so.
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:52:49 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> Frank Pitt wrote:
> > Beginners should never be taught C or assembly language.
>
> Well, I disagree; maybe they shouldn't be taught C first-thing,
> but they should probably learn it before they get too far into
> the higher-level languages -- if they want to be as flexible and
> adaptable as possible.
>
> But today, most apps are written in C and C++. Heavily disciplined
> use of C++ can just about eliminate explicit pointer management,
> but any programmer in the real world is eventually going to be
> exposed to plain old pointers, and I'd really really prefer it if
> they'd learn the concepts, even if it were as "crude and unsafe
> but rebindable references".
>
> Pointer education is like sex education -- you can pretend the
> subject doesn't exist, but the kids are going to be exposed to
> it eventually.
I've been a professional programmer since 1987, worked for the
construction industry, automotive, telecoms, several merchant
banks, software houses, and multinationals. My question is this:
what's a "pointer"?
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 04:07:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Introduction
Greetings All,
Just a quick post to say hello and introduce myself to the list. My name is
Antaine, and I am 34 yo bloke from Australia. I have played Traveller since
around 80-81 but due to a real time Military career, I have been "away" from
gaming for quite a few years. I am just re-involving myself and having found
Downport.com, followed my nose and wound up in mIRC and now here. (Thanks
Jeff for your advice on the major-domo error)
I am a CT player and once I am back into the groove so to speak, I'll be
running a game or two. I have to face the huge challenge now of finding some
people for face to face gaming. Any Aussies in NSW feel free to e-mail me
off-list and maybe we can arrange something.
For the rest on the list, I usually post only if I have something to say or
a question to ask, but hope to get to know a few fellow Sophonts around the
globe.
Respectfully,
Antaine.
<geek code to follow>
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:07:17 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> Yes I did get it and I am working on it. At the moment I'm just starting
the
> detailed design. I expect to start coding in a month or so.
Cool. :-)
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 07:15:51 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Ginger = Stirling Engine?
http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/066/nation/Inventor_s_clues_fuel_talk_that_ideal_engine_is_near+.shtml
- -
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
- -
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:23 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.4.10.10103061554120.16632-100000@shell.tsoft.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
Even 1st pregnancies can have their risks (and this is when breeding with
someone who - as far as I know - is the same species!). You can develop a
condition called pre-eclampsia, which simply put is the
pregnancy equivalent of transplant organ rejection - the mother's body
rejects the baby inside and the only treatment is to get it out FAST. If
you're lucky, the baby is in a viable state. It is a killer, the mother
will be dead in hours if the baby is not removed.
It normally happens on a first pregnancy only. However, if you change
partners and get pregnant again, it can recur. Dunno. No plans to change
partner!
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
(In case you worry, we were lucky - the baby survived. She's now 4 and
already interested in roleplayinG!)
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:23 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010306225939.006a7088@buffnet.net>
Greetings dear hearts.
As I understand the Rh factors, Hal is correct. If the parents are
different (one Rh+, the other Rh-), the first child will be born (at least
as far as THAT problem is concerned) without difficulty. However, leakage
of foetal cells into the mother's bloodstream sensitises her so that when
a second pregnancy begins antibodies are developed to the foetal blood of
the child within her. Hence what is popularly refered to as a 'blue baby'
who needs immediate and possibly massive transfusion on arrival into this
world.
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
- ------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:23 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Cordite loops
In-Reply-To: <B6CB1E21.49A5%drgoon@netaxs.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
Det/prima-cord is very useful... but quite hard to get hold of :-(
Makes good cutting charges for things like building entry. If you are
doing house clearance, the standard method is NOT to go in by the door -
the enemy sort of expect that. So you use a frame charge which is
basically prima-cord on a square wood frame (pre-prepared) to make a
'mousehole' through which you first post a couple of grenades and then
effect your entry.
A similar trick - only with lesser amounts of explosive - is used to blow
out windows during hostage rescue operations. Oh, and you usually chuck
'flash-bangs' rather than explosive grenades. The hostages prefer it!
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
- ------------------------------
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From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)
To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3777
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3778
Date: | 3/7/01 9:13:00 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, March 7 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3778
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Dogs & Human Evolution
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
RE: sapiens
Re: Introduction
Re: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3773
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Re: Wealth
RE: Astrogation design
Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Re: Introduction
Re: Location of QSDS and SSDS
Re: Location of QSDS and SSDS
RE: sapiens (long)
RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
RE: sapiens (long)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:29:49 -0000
From: "Michael R. Blair" <michael@carrickfergus.schoolzone.co.uk>
Subject: Dogs & Human Evolution
Last Thursday night on a BBC Radio 4 science program they mentioned that
dogs go back much further than previously thought, that they have been
associated with man almost for as long as modern man has existed.
To me it sounds as if the two species have almost evolved in parallel or
symbiosis.
Michael R. Blair
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 08:55:01 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
On 6 Mar 2001, at 10:12, Douglas Berry wrote:
> At 11:29 AM 03/06/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >Sorry - I didn't make myself clear - I meant the concentrate form as
> >opposed to distributing the recipe. I agree with you, if you ship
> >physical materials, a concentrate would be more economical than the
> >full brew. And the transportation might have adverse affects on the
> >product (although I wonder about the taste of a "Jumpspace Stout"...).
>
> http://www.tomsmithonline.com/lyrics/307ale.htm
ROTFLMAO!!
Thanks, that really brightened a snowy morning. :)
Rob
- --
Rob
'Consciousness: that annoying time between naps.'
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:01:46 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
On 6 Mar 2001, at 12:53, Paul Drye wrote:
> Hatred for American beer has become a cultural icon idée fixe; they could
> get Claudia Schiffer to serve it personally and it would make little
> difference at this point....
<tongue firmly in cheek>
Now will a Canadian program in that horrible VB I wonder??
If Claudia Schiffer were the program manager?
</tongue firmly in cheek>
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Radix lecti -- Couch potato
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:11:19 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: sapiens
On 6 Mar 2001, at 10:28, Jeff wrote:
> You are probably right, I'm just not smart enough for the gearhead threads.
> In the end, then, it would seem reasonable, though not necessarily canon, to
> have a human species somewhere continuing the neanderthal line, or even
> taking a different route after H.erectus.
Homo neanderthalensis sapiens?
What would you imagine such an evolved form of H.neanderthal to have
as characteristics? (thinking ObTrav).
Rob D.
LINUX --- the choice of a GNU generation ---
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 06:09:48 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Introduction
At 04:07 AM 03/07/01 -0800, you wrote:
>Greetings All,
>
>Just a quick post to say hello and introduce myself to the list. My name
is Antaine, and I am 34 yo >bloke from Australia. I have played Traveller
since around 80-81 but due to a real time Military >career, I have been
"away" from gaming for quite a few years. I am just re-involving myself and
>having found Downport.com, followed my nose and wound up in mIRC and now
here. (Thanks Jeff for your >advice on the major-domo error)
Welcome! The list seems to be in a bit of a slump, so feel free to jump in
at any time.
Now, the matter of your newbie essay.. I've given out the last couple.
Leonard? Isn't it your turn to assign one?
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 09:52:38 -0500
From: Gordon Hundley <drgoon@netaxs.com>
Subject: Re: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
on 7/3/01 6:52 am, Trevor, Peter at Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:
> I've been a professional programmer since 1987, worked for the
> construction industry, automotive, telecoms, several merchant
> banks, software houses, and multinationals. My question is this:
> what's a "pointer"?
Simply C jargon for a call by reference rather than by value.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 10:01:53 -0500
From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3773
Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:
>Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> > This is true, but you know, America earned this reputation.
> >
> > There are good beers in America NOW, mostly from microbreweries, but
>when
> > I was a kid and first began to drink beer, the choices were pretty much:
> >
> > Budweiser, Miller, Coors, Schaefer, and Generic.
>
>One word: Prohibition. Prohibition was the Great Extinction for breweries
>in the US; prior to Prohibition, beer was made and consumed locally, and
>there were few (if any) national brands.
Hmmm...I'm taking a class in Management at my workplace now,
we just did a bit on the development of the US national
brewing industry. According to our textbook, the US brewing
industry was still made up of hundreds of small regional
companies right up until 1960. A few successful ones (the makers
of the beers listed above) started going after larger markets at
about that time, buying out and closing down local breweries in
other regions. They'd still market the local brand for a while,
but they'd closely link it with their national name.
The critical transition period between "every city has a local
brewing company" and "six nationwide companies have 75% of the beer
market" seemed to be between 1960 and 1979, long after prohibition.
Not that many breweries didn't go under when Prohibition reduced
them to making non-alcoholic beer or alternate products, but our
class readings seem to indicate that many more sprang up when the
"Great Experiment" of Prohibition was ended.
Always interesting to see different views of history - an
industry insider associating the change with Prohibition, a team
of management analysts (the writers of our textbook) associating
the change with other factors like the development of nationwide
television networks (and the associated advertising markets).
Walt Smith
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 15:07:37 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Gordon Hundley wrote:
> on 7/3/01 6:52 am, Trevor, Peter at Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:
> > I've been a professional programmer since 1987, worked for the
> > construction industry, automotive, telecoms, several merchant
> > banks, software houses, and multinationals. My question is this:
> > what's a "pointer"?
>
> Simply C jargon for a call by reference rather than by value.
Good grief, is that all. Why do some people like C so much if
you have to bother yourself with such trivial matters?
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 15:14:17
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
I grew up in a state with 3.2 beer also (Kansas). It took some adjustment
when I moved to a state with real beer!
Just to show that it is possible to mess up a good thing: My wife was
working in Oklahoma a few years ago. I went to visit her and, on the
suggestion of some friends, we went out to a local microbrewery. We were
expecting something on the order of what we have in Colorado and were very
disappointed to discover that they only made 3.2 beer!
John
>On 6 Mar 2001, at 10:12, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>
> > On top of that, I lived in a 3.2 beer state in my teens. If you've
>never
> > experienced the misery that is 3.2 beer, count yourself very, very
>lucky.
>
>I presume that this means something along the lines of "no beer is allowed
>more
>than 3.2% alcohol"? If so I sympathise - even weak modern NZ beers make 4%
>(some arsehole did this survey that concluded that we like our beer at 4.5%
>and
>under, and some even bigger arsehole listened).
>
>--
>"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
>A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 10:24:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
John Snead writes:
>>According to that article, the two races lived side-by-side for close
>>on 50,000 years, but there was absolutely no evidence that they
>>interbred.
>>A possible Sapien/Neanderthal cross was unearthed in a cave in
>>Spain about the same time, but the individual in question was
>>about 4 when he died, so his morphology was not well developed
>>and his remains remain controversial.
>Actually IIRC within the last 4-6 months archeologists have found
>additional intermediate skeletons, including I believe at least one
>adult (or perhaps they merely found one adult skeleton). Ian likely
>knows more than I.
<snipped>
I don't have time to follow developments on human evolution
very closely, and I hadn't heard about this. Sounds
interesting, but it will likely take some pretty compelling
evidence to settle this matter.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 06:52:08 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Wealth
Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote
> Peter Newman writes:
> >Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote
> >
> >>No law requires them to sell you anything if they don't want to. And if
> >>you can't pay them with something they want, they won't want to.
> >
> >Are you trying to tell me that when you walk into a store with Imperial
> >Credits and the shopkeeper refuses to accept them that the Imperial
> >government is going to let them get away with it?
>
> The question is moot, because the conditions doesn't exist. There IS trade
> between the planets of the Imperium and consequently people CAN buy stuff they
> want with Imperial credits.
You are evading the question. The question is not if buyers
can buy with Imperial credits but if sellers must accept
Imperial credits.
> >That sort of thing was directly responsible for the fall of the Rule of Man
> >and the Long Night. Do you honestly think that the Third Imperium is going
> >to allow it?
>
> I'm quite sure the Imperium couldn't care less if Eneri Q.
> Public accepts Crimps or not. They might get shirty if a
> sector branch of an Imperial bank refused to honor a draft.
What if Eneri Q Public is domain manager for a mega corporation
and he (after a Vilani style consensus is achieved) announces
that they will no longer accept CrImps?
> >>The only way the Imperium can get anything useful from a world is to spend
> >>those credits on stuff that can be physically lifted off the planetary
> >>surface and moved elsewhere.
> >
> >The most expensive goods the Imperium uses are probably capital class
> >starships. Canon establishes that many types of starships are built at
> >many locations.
>
> What's your point? If that isn't an example of the Imperium taking its taxes
> out in kind then I don't know what is.
I'm asserting that the most expensive thing they buy can lift
itself off of a planetary surface. Thus it need not be "physically
lifted off the planetary surface and moved elsewhere" but rather
it transports itself.
> >The way I see it the Imperium demands that people accept Imperial credits.
> >When they want something they buy it on location, hire someone to deliver it,
> >or transport it themselves in their own (typically military) starships that
> >they purchased using Imperial Credits or which they had built by yard crew
> >paid in Imperial credits.
>
> In other words, they buy goods and transport them off-world. Just as I said.
No. I am asserting that they are more likely to have them
transported off world than to transport them off world themselves.
> >The Imperial credit is a symbol of the idea of the Imperium. When you reject
> >the credit you are rejecting the Imperium. Yes, of course, the Imperial credit
> >is intrinsically nothing more than pretty extruded plastic with cunning anti
> >counterfeiting measures but the common acceptance of the Imperial credit is
> >one of the key reasons for the creation of the Imperium in the first place (to
> >promote trade, which common currencies do).
> And that trade is how the wealth is transferred from planet to planet. The
> exchange of Crimps is merely a way to keep score. A tally. Promisory notes.
No because the Imperial Credit can be, and is, used for internal
commerce as well as external commerce. Thus the Imperial Credit
serves as a medium of exchange as well.
> >>But all that gets them is a promisory note. You can't eat a promisory note,
> >>you can't use it to fuel your starships and you can't use it to pay someone
> >>on the next planet over _unless_ there is some trade between the two planets.
> >
> >If the next planet over will not accept your Imperial credits they are saying
> >that they do not believe that the Imperium is good for the debt.
>
> And if they can't use those credit to buy stuff on another planet then the
> Imperium is not good for the debt. You're arguing in circles. The reason people
> accept Crimps is precisely because they know they CAN buy stuff from other
> worlds with it. If they couldn't, they wouldn't accept them.
Not exactly. What I am asserting is that because the Imperium
is willing to kill people who don't accept the Imperial credit
this provides an incentive for people to accept the Imperial
credit. Even people who are willing to risk being killed will
accept the credit because they know that others will accept
it or risk being killed.
> >For a member world to say that is clearly rebellious. There is a very good
> >reason why the Imperial navy has weapons of mass destruction and it is not
> >the Zhodani.
> >Read your MT.
>
> In the interest of keeping this civil I'll refrain from replying to this the
> way it so richly deserves.
If, as usual, you're going to be snide about this I may as well
note that I've rarely known you to be civil and this is not one
of those times. You constantly project the patronizing attitude
that you know Traveller better than others. Much of the time your
belief is correct but there are people [1] who know it as well and
merely interpret it differently.
MT canon clearly establishes that the Imperial Navy did use
it's weapons on its people. It establishes that at least
billions of people died as a result. Canon does not establish
that billions died in the Frontier Wars. Therefore the Imperial Navy
is a greater threat to the Imperium than the Zhodani Consulate
is.
[1] Which group I am not _necessarily_ asserting I belong to.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 15:45:23 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Astrogation design
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Paul Campbell
> Sent: 06 March 2001 18:57
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Astrogation design
>
>
[snip]
>
> This is good at the level where differences occur at the
> local level,
> and especially when the changes are in 'free text' fields
> as per your
> example. Problems arise when you start to develop
> Untilites that need
> to traverse this universe autonomously. Given two
> differing profiles
> for a star system which one do you use?
>
Unfortunately, when you are designing a sort of "free-for-all"
transport data structure that can be plugged in to dozens of different
applications, that is exactly the problem you will hit. What I have
done so far assumes (and even this much may be wrong, which is why I
posted it) that the _physical_ details - in this case just the
location of the sector - will be the same for all the game settings
and software and that just the descriptions (if they are used by
particular applications) might vary. I managed that by setting the
canon/T4/CT flags up for the text and allowed the "local" option for
those that didn't fit.
You are dead right though - "local" is not enough as it stands. An
extra, optional, tag is needed to say what the local rules apply to.
I'll add that as well and it should mean that any application can
select just the data it needs to run for the particular game setting
being dealt with.
>
> Personally I'm not convinced either is better of worse from a
> modelling point of view. However programatically I would prefer the
> parallel universes as they are easier to seperate at an early stage.
> And allow multiple unrelated milieus to reside safely
> within the same
> database. The benefits of this are demonstrated by Galactic.
>
Oh my word yes - it would probably be possible to actually design an
application to traverse and calculate based on the data in the XML,
but I wouldn't like to do it personally. The whole idea is to have an
XML structure that can be used to import and export data from an
application so that it can be used by others. Its a data-sharing tool,
not an application database.
Thanks for the feedback on this stage. I'll make the change to the
"local" flag, add a second layer for subsectors and then start looking
at the really tricky one...systems...after I post the updated XML.
When I add subsectors, by the way, I will do it so that a document can
contain either one or more sectors, one or more subsectors, or one or
more sectors (which include one or more subsectors) or one or more
sectors (which include pointers to one or more subsectors in the same
or a different document). That should allow any level of detail or
simplification on the XML.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:14:06 +0100
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
"Michael R. Blair" wrote:
> Last Thursday night on a BBC Radio 4 science program they mentioned that
> dogs go back much further than previously thought, that they have been
> associated with man almost for as long as modern man has existed.
> To me it sounds as if the two species have almost evolved in parallel or
> symbiosis.
Or the development of the two species were overseen by the same scientists.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:17:49 +0100
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Introduction
Douglas Berry wrote:
> Now, the matter of your newbie essay.. I've given out the last couple.
> Leonard? Isn't it your turn to assign one?
I have a suggestion for an essay subject:
Describe the impact that widely available nanotechnology would have on the
Official Traveller Universe.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:19:53 +0100
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Location of QSDS and SSDS
John Fox wrote:
> I am trying to get ahold of a copy of the Quick Starship Design Systema nd
> the S Starship Design System. Does anyone know where they are located? And if
> so could you send the info to me?
QSDS: Marc Miller's Traveller core rulebook (T4)
SSDS: Starships (supplement for T4)
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:39:28 -0600 (CST)
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Location of QSDS and SSDS
On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> John Fox wrote:
> > I am trying to get ahold of a copy of the Quick Starship Design Systema nd
> > the S Starship Design System. Does anyone know where they are located? And if
> > so could you send the info to me?
>
> QSDS: Marc Miller's Traveller core rulebook (T4)
>
> SSDS: Starships (supplement for T4)
As I understand it, the versions posted online are updated/corrected and
therefore better. Plus, you don't have to go looking for out-of-print
books. Try looking in the directory:
http://traveller.mu.org/archive/T4/
Greg Kettler
"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you
may not actually need an explicit loop exit. The loop will be terminated
automatically at the appropriate moment."
-Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 11:44:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: sapiens (long)
Jeff writes:
>>Do the fruit flies show as much variation among their species as
>>neanderthals and modern man do as subspecies?
>That depends on what you mean by variation. A very large
>can of several species of worms. :)
>Oh. Well, I guess I mean a fairly lay definition. By that, are there are
>clear and obvious differences that can be appreciated in the same way as may
>seperate modern humans and neanderthals.
Being humans, we tend to be highly sensitive to subtle
variations between humans. To most people, one fruit fly
looks much like another, but the fruit flies can detect the
difference. There really is no objective way to compare
the differences among fruit flies with the differences
between H. sapiens sapiens and H. sapiens neanderthalis,
other than that (if neanderthalis is indeed a subspecies)
the fruit flies are more different taxonomically.
Remember: time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a
banana.
>My point, and this ties into the
>taxonomic accuracy bit, that even though we and neanderthal are only
>subspecies to each other, we seem to display significant differences.
>If the fruitflies species do not vary to the same degree, then claiming a
>more significant rate of change for the fruitflies based solely on the
>technical classification of those new species, fails to measure the
>actual changes.
First, I didn't claim "a more significant rate of change for the
fruitflies", only a higher rate of speciation. This was meant to
contribute to the discussion of how long it would take for
speciation in humans. The issue of evolutionary changes is
not exactly the same, though obviously some changes have to
occur to have speciation.
The quantification of change is more difficult than you might
imagine. Are a 100 g rat and a 400 g rat (which are identicle
in shape and other features) more different than a 100 g rat
with a tail and a 100 g rat with no tail? Are a rat with a tail
and a rat with no tail more different than a rat with a short
tail plus short legs and a rat with a long tail plus long legs?
Are a rat with short legs and a rat with long legs more
different than a rat with insulin type X and a rat with insulin
type Y? Are a rat with insulin type X and a rat with insulin
type Y more different than a rat that is attracted to light and
a rat that is afraid of light? These are questions without
objective answers (AFAICT).
>>Why should there be more physical change? You have
>>argued that it is possible that there could be significant
>>physical changes, but have given no reasons to expect
>>physical changes greater than those observed on Terra.
>>Nor it is necessarily true (AFAIK) that Zhodanis are no
>>more different from Vilani than eskimos are from
>>bushmen.
>I would expect more differences because the species the ancients took sprout
>two major decendant lines here on earth. Now, while I know that does not
>prove nor even imply that the transplanted populations should drift, at the
>same time, given the variety of conditions, as well as the significant time
>allowances, that some form of greater change should have been observed.
(First, see above discussion on quantifying differences.)
Greater than is found on earth, quite possibly. Greater than is
found in the 3I, possibly, but not necessarily. Are Zhodanis more
different from Vilani than archaic and modern H. sapiens, I don't
know.
>Thus, I believe that humaniti should display more variation then among
>modern terran races for the following reasons.
I agree that humaniti could easily display more variation than
among modern Terran races (keeping in mind the limitations
to the concept of "more variation"). I have not intentionally argued
against this proposition.
<snipped and pasted below>
>2) The range of enviornmental conditions (ecology, gravity, temperature,
>and so on) of the forty something transplanted people should be AT LEAST as
>varied as any climate conditions on earth. (Not necessary that each
>population was exposed to varied enviornments like here on earth, but that
>the forty something situations should all display significant differences
>between each other.) Neanderthals had significant adaptations to their
>enviornment, so why not the rest of transplanted humaniti?
On the other hand, if modern humans on Terra have evolved to be
the way we are, why shouldn't humans on a similar world evolve the
same way? As I pointed out a while back, substantial differences
in gravity would lead to substantial changes, a different class of
star would lead to the evolution of different proteins in the eye.
There may be "races" of humaniti out there that are superficially
or more subtly different, depending on how different were the worlds
on which they were seeded. It does not follow that they will be
separate species, nor is it necessary (within the framework of
Traveller) to conclude that the various "races" of humaniti must
be more different than some benchmark.
>1) 300,000 years is much more time then current racial populations have
>been developing. (After all, 300,000 there were no modern people even.)
>3) The starting point, archaic Homo sapiens, does infact give rise to at
>least two significantly different subspecies. This is only on earth, and
>within the 300,000 year range. It would seem reasonable to assert that some
>transplanted population could take another route.
I put these together as they seem to be the same point. If you
assume that human evolution has been driven by genetic drift
over the past 300,000 years, then this argument would hold
more force. Even so, I'm not sure that H. aspiens zhodotlas
Zhodani) and Homo sapiens bilandin (Vilani) are any less
different than H. aspiens sapiens and H. sapiens neanderthalis.
On the other hand, one might argue that natural selection has
been the dominant force in shaping (or maintaining) human
traits since H. erectus. If this is the case, then we might
humans from Terra-like worlds to be remarkably similar, given
that most selective on these worlds might be very similar to
what they are here. Naturally, one can argue that the
conditions will be very different, in which case more differences
would tend to emerge. YMMV.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 16:52:50
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
OBTrav: "Rum Running" may be very much alive in the Traveller Universe if
the law level of a world prohibits alcohol or restricts the alcohol content.
Having concentrates makes the process easier.
>
>I grew up in a state with 3.2 beer also (Kansas). It took some adjustment
>when I moved to a state with real beer!
>
>Just to show that it is possible to mess up a good thing: My wife was
>working in Oklahoma a few years ago. I went to visit her and, on the
>suggestion of some friends, we went out to a local microbrewery. We were
>expecting something on the order of what we have in Colorado and were very
>disappointed to discover that they only made 3.2 beer!
>
>John
>
>>On 6 Mar 2001, at 10:12, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>>
>> > On top of that, I lived in a 3.2 beer state in my teens. If you've
>>never
>> > experienced the misery that is 3.2 beer, count yourself very, very
>>lucky.
>>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:09:56
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: sapiens (long)
>>Do the fruit flies show as much variation among their species as
>>neanderthals and modern man do as subspecies?
>That depends on what you mean by variation. A very large
>can of several species of worms. :)
>Oh. Well, I guess I mean a fairly lay definition. By that, are there are
>clear and obvious differences that can be appreciated in the same way as
>may
>seperate modern humans and neanderthals.
Another example of a species with a very wide range of variations is the dog
(Canis familiaris). Of course, there was an agent encouraging the
variations, us instead of the Ancients. In spite of the wide variations,
dogs are interfertile, although certain crosses can cause problems due
mostly to size. The difference between the breeds of dogs are far more
extreme than between the human races in Traveller. (I live with two
extremes: an 8-pound Maltese and two 140-pound Great Pyrenees.) I believe
that there are significant genetic differences between wolves and dogs, but
they are still interfertile.
John
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3778
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3779
Date: | 3/7/01 1:54:53 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, March 7 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3779
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Time shortage
RE: Time shortage
re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Attn: Craig Berry
Re: Time shortage
Re: [still way off topic] License to Program
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
RE: Time shortage
Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
Re: Cordite loops
Re: [still way off topic] License to Program
Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Horosho/Glisten added to spinwardmarches.com
Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise
Programming in the 3I Re: License to Program
Re: Programming in the 3I Re: License to Program
Scout Brew....
RE: Introduction
RE: dog races/subspecies
RE: Cordite loops
RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 08:53:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Time shortage
I thought I'd let folks know that I'm likely to be spending a lot less
time reading the list for at least a while.
I'm afraid I've found someone^H^H^Hthing more interesting to occupy my
time. <g>
I'll still be looking in, but I'm going to be skipping a *lot* of stuff.
Sorry, but a guy has to have his priorities straight. :-)
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:23:43 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Time shortage
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G}) wrote:
> I thought I'd let folks know that I'm likely to be spending a
> lot less time reading the list for at least a while.
>
> I'm afraid I've found someone^H^H^Hthing more interesting to
> occupy my time. <g>
>
> I'll still be looking in, but I'm going to be skipping a *lot*
> of stuff.
> Sorry, but a guy has to have his priorities straight. :-)
Surely you're missing something here. Relationships are about
sharing. Educate this other person in the ways of Traveller and
then you can both share the joy of reading the TML together. :-P
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:32:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Dogs & Human Evolution
>From: "Michael R. Blair" <michael@carrickfergus.schoolzone.co.uk>
>Last Thursday night on a BBC Radio 4 science program they mentioned that
>dogs go back much further than previously thought, that they have been
>associated with man almost for as long as modern man has existed.
One of my family's dogs was fond of remarking that if humans did not
already exist, dogs would have had to invent them.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 09:21:55 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Attn: Craig Berry
Your email address is bouncing on me, please contact as soon as is
convenient.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 09:23:04 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Time shortage
At 08:53 AM 03/07/01 PST, you wrote:
>I thought I'd let folks know that I'm likely to be spending a lot less
>time reading the list for at least a while.
>
>I'm afraid I've found someone^H^H^Hthing more interesting to occupy my
>time. <g>
>
>I'll still be looking in, but I'm going to be skipping a *lot* of stuff.
>Sorry, but a guy has to have his priorities straight. :-)
As the Leonard Erickson Breeding Program waits in hushed anticipation...
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 09:22:00 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: [still way off topic] License to Program
Peter Trevor wrote:
> > Pointer education is like sex education -- you can pretend the
> > subject doesn't exist, but the kids are going to be exposed to
> > it eventually.
>
> I've been a professional programmer since 1987, worked for the
> construction industry, automotive, telecoms, several merchant
> banks, software houses, and multinationals. My question is this:
> what's a "pointer"?
Assuming you're being serious, a pointer is a variable which stores
a memory address, usually the address of another variable or data
object. I'm largely familiar with pointers from the C language,
though many Pascal dialects have pointers. More modern languages
provide references, which are similar to pointers though usually
"safer", if less flexible.
If you have a structure or record in memory, and you wish to, for
example, tell some subroutine to operate on a given structure/record,
you may create a pointer to that structure/record, pass the pointer
to the subroutine, and let the subroutine do its thing, which is
in general a cheaper operation than copying the structure/record
on entry and exit to the subroutine.
This sort of pointer operation is extremely common in the C language.
Some other languages have more elegant ways to do similar things,
and some languages don't have any equivalent. While it appears very
clumsy to those who are used to other methods, the fact is that the
underlying hardware frequently uses pointers (in the form of address
registers), and so the way C does it is "close to the machine"; a
programmer experienced in both C and assembly language is often
very aware of what the assembly version of the code is going to look
like even as it's being written.
There. You have now learned about pointers "on the street". Now
you can educate me. What language/languages have you been using?
How do those languages best allow you to write a single subroutine
to manipulate similarly-structured records which come from different
sources?
- -Russell B
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 09:36:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
On 6 Mar 2001, at 10:12, Douglas Berry wrote:
> http://www.tomsmithonline.com/lyrics/307ale.htm
307 Ale: the quintessential American beer.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:15:33
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
>on 7/3/01 6:52 am, Trevor, Peter at Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:
> > I've been a professional programmer since 1987, worked for the
> > construction industry, automotive, telecoms, several merchant
> > banks, software houses, and multinationals. My question is this:
> > what's a "pointer"?
My experience with programming pointers was in passing variables between
FORTRAN programs and assembly or machine language subroutines. The pointers
provided a link to the address of the passed value.
I've noticed that FORTRAN has not even been mentioned in the discussions of
programming languages. I hope I'm not starting another round of debate.
There is still a surprising amount of FORTRAN code lurking in technical
applications.
John
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:35:11 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
They are both Excellent Graphics. and I had to sit and think last night. It
is a tough choice.
That said I still Like Marks the best. And I would like to use Marks on the
Ship that Jesse is going to slap together us. I would like to use both
graphics on the web page if allowed. I am thinking that and the strips John
has provided will help me create a little Polynesian feel.
Also Jesse I had a change of heart on the Strips on the ship if you can make
the strips match the flowers that are being thrown into the air i would
appreciate it.
Sort ofa side note the Four flowers being thrown up will represent the 4
players in the group. it is almost as is Mark were Psycic or something.
Also would like to put a note on our web pages with thanks to all of you for
your work and links to any web sites you may have.
I would like to say again Johns work was excellent also and the decision was
extremly hard.
And I Live in Palo Alto So those of you who are in SF lets do dinner 8)
Hasta
- -----Original Message-----
From: John Lambert [mailto:hovtej@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2001 11:56 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
My attempt at the nose art for the Mahina Tiare is done, flowers and all. It
is posted at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/j_lambert/NoseArt.htm
Bill, thanks again for the interesting project.
John
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:49:52 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
> Also Jesse I had a change of heart on the Strips on the ship if
> you can make
> the strips match the flowers that are being thrown into the air i would
> appreciate it.
Actually, that's what I was planning on ;) I got the font from John last
night (or was it the night before...) so I'll be able to work on this soon.
I need to finish something for SJG & BITS first, so it'll be about a week
before I have a chance to do it.
Best,
Jesse
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:50:52 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Time shortage
On 7 Mar 2001, at 17:23, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G}) wrote:
> > I thought I'd let folks know that I'm likely to be spending a
> > lot less time reading the list for at least a while.
> >
> > I'm afraid I've found someone^H^H^Hthing more interesting to
> > occupy my time. <g>
> >
> > I'll still be looking in, but I'm going to be skipping a *lot*
> > of stuff.
> > Sorry, but a guy has to have his priorities straight. :-)
>
> Surely you're missing something here. Relationships are about
> sharing. Educate this other person in the ways of Traveller and
> then you can both share the joy of reading the TML together. :-P
Or divide up the daily posting between you, then you have something
to discuss over dinner. :)
Rob D.
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that my thoughts acquire speed.
My hands begin to shake. The shakes are a warning.
It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion.
- -- unknown
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 10:55:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Hot Fusion in a Can
hal@buffnet.net writes:
> Hello Anthony,
> Forward doesn't assume that an antimatter containment system weighs more
> than what David Pulver hypothesized, he assumes it will be *less* than what
> David suggests.
I figured he did, I just was curious what that efficiency he gave.
> The shuttlecraft moved on to the other side of the thick metal disk about
> 3 meters in diameter. It was fifteen centimeters thick at the center and
> tapered down to a few centimeters thick at the rim. Right in back of the
> metal disk was a large rectangle about as big as a kitchen refrigerator.
> "The big metal Disk is the radiation shield, while the rectangular box on
> the other side is the antimatter storage container"
Which unfortunately doesn't tell me what the total storage is, since we don't
know either the mass (probably about a ton, if its refrigerator sized) or
the total endurance. With TL 9 antimatter storage, endurance is ~20 minutes,
which is not too bad. I suspect he was wanting at least 10x that endurance,
but that quote doesn't tell me. In any case, a lot of Forward's technology
is well above what GURPS calls TL 9, a TL 11 high-cap antimatter bay
would hold 18 hours of fuel, which is plenty.
> Me? I don't know enough about physics one way or another to comment on
> Forward's "flights of fantasy" or wild optimism <grin>. What I will say
> however, is that it seems odd that in GURPS VEHICLES, antimatter requires
> containment systems that are far heavier than fusion power plants (on a
> weight per cubic volume basis). At the very least, I'd have expected that
> antimatter containment systems would be at worst, as heavy as fusion
> plants, not heavier!
Um...huh? The two problems aren't even related.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 07:57:32 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Cordite loops
On 7 Mar 2001, at 12:23, Megan Robertson wrote:
> In-Reply-To: <B6CB1E21.49A5%drgoon@netaxs.com>
> Greetings dear hearts.
>
> Det/prima-cord is very useful... but quite hard to get hold of :-(
>
> Makes good cutting charges for things like building entry. If you are
> doing house clearance, the standard method is NOT to go in by the door -
> the enemy sort of expect that. So you use a frame charge which is
> basically prima-cord on a square wood frame (pre-prepared) to make a
> 'mousehole' through which you first post a couple of grenades and then
> effect your entry.
Me, I'm from the school of thought that the Russian appear to belong to, too.
The best way to clear a house is with a battery of howizters.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 12:19:54 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: [still way off topic] License to Program
Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> If you have a structure or record in memory, and you wish to, for
> example, tell some subroutine to operate on a given structure/record,
> you may create a pointer to that structure/record, pass the pointer
> to the subroutine, and let the subroutine do its thing, which is
> in general a cheaper operation than copying the structure/record
> on entry and exit to the subroutine.
>
"Cheaper" in terms of memory and CPU usage, but hardly cheaper in economic terms of producing software. Chasing bugs in pointers is one of the biggest PITA's, and waster of programmer time that have ever come from that mostrosity known as 'C'.
Passing by reference, and allowing your compiler to keep track of the actual state of memory will ALWAYS pay off at debugging time.
A structured language may take up more memory and cpu cycles, but in the long run, what costs is not that but programming and debugging time.
I saw a button once, "'C', a macro assembler cleverly disguised as a higher language."
If you're after the last ounce of speed, memory utilization, and efficiency, by all means get down to the silicon and program there. >95%% of all the applications out there don't need such performance, and indeed, using them in these programs is on the order of dropping a Formula 1 powertrain into your family car.
Sure you'll get improved performace, but at the cost of having to rebuild your engine every 100 miles...
By the time of the 3I, in fact, I really doubt that assembler, pointers, or any of this will really latter anymore; in fact for 'proven' programs you _can't_ use languages that let you anywhere near the hardware, as there's far too much room for introducing errors.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 12:28:37 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Michael R. Blair wrote:
> Last Thursday night on a BBC Radio 4 science program they mentioned that
> dogs go back much further than previously thought, that they have been
> associated with man almost for as long as modern man has existed.
> To me it sounds as if the two species have almost evolved in parallel or
> symbiosis.
>
> Michael R. Blair
Yeah, and the scientist who has found the greatest evidence for
canid-hominid association is of the opinion that dogs have molded humans
as much as humans have molded dogs, that we are much more pack-like than
we would otherwise be.
Of coure my dogs just look at me, grin, and say 'Duh!' but, we
two-footers are sometimes slow to catch on.
After all who does all the work, and who gets to laze about all day
chasing cats and balls...;-P
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:37:14 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Horosho/Glisten added to spinwardmarches.com
I have added most of the data provided from Horosho/Glisten to
http://www.spinwardmarches.com.
If Michael Cessna would please take a look and comment, I'd appreciate it.
Thanks, Tod
- ----
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
- ----
Tod Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.travellerguns.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 12:38:43 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise
Stephen Tempest wrote:
> Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> writes:
>
>
>> Actually, there are people who claim exactly that. Unfortunately,
>> terms like "subspecies" carry emotional luggage. I believe that
>> "subspecies" is more difficult to define than species, but where
>> humans are involved there are even more complications.
>
>
> Total layman's question: are the different breeds of dog, like
> chihuahuas, great danes, etc, considered to be subspecies or "races"?
They're not even considered 'races'; all of em are Canis familiaris, or depending on who you talk to, Canis lupus familiaris, as some people don't distiguish between dogs and wolves on a species level and even the subspecies designation is more a cultural thing on the part of the humans than a taxonomical difference.
For that matter coyotes (Canis atrox (?)) are also probably the same species, as they're completely interfertile. In fact, aside from looks, the single largest difference between dogs, coyotes and wolves is that dogs have been bred to remain in the puppy stage of development; domestication seems to do this to canids. In Russia they introduced a silver fox domestication program to breed foxes amenable to fur farming. They got their 'domesticated' fox. It also displays a juvenile coat and behavior patterns throughout it's life, making it useless for the fur industry (not the behavior, but the coat.)
Dogs, apparently, have very plastic genome, and in the wild turn out to be shorter haired dogs, about 35-40 pounds in weight, with upright, pointed ears. In fact, aside from the coyotes bushy tail, outbred feral dogs end up looking remarkably like coyotes.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:51:50 -0600 (CST)
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Programming in the 3I Re: License to Program
On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> By the time of the 3I, in fact, I really doubt that assembler, pointers,
> or any of this will really latter anymore; in fact for 'proven' programs
>you
>_can't_ use languages that let you anywhere near the hardware, as there's
>far
>too much room for introducing errors.
Hmm... if I'm not mistaken, this thread finally has an ObTrav. Of course,
the most interesting idea about programming in the future I've seen
appears in Vernor Vinge's A Deepness in the Sky. In that society, you
don't just have programmers; you have "programmer-archeologists," whose
job it is to mine a few millenia's worth of archived code for the solution
to your problem. In all that time, someone must have had to solve a
similar one.
Of course, my favorite title in that book is still "programmer-at-arms."
Greg Kettler
"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you
may not actually need an explicit loop exit. The loop will be terminated
automatically at the appropriate moment."
-Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 11:59:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Programming in the 3I Re: License to Program
On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> By the time of the 3I, in fact, I really doubt that assembler, pointers,
> or any of this will really latter anymore; in fact for 'proven' programs you
> _can't_ use languages that let you anywhere near the hardware, as there's
> far too much room for introducing errors.
Well, some knowledge of low-level coding will always be necessary, even if
the low-level code is all machine-written. You need to understand the low
level stuff to write a compiler, though you don't need to actually write
any low level code to write a compiler. You also, obviously, need to
understand the low level stuff to create new hardware.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:01:32 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: Scout Brew....
Ok this is a question for the mailing list. dont know if anyone would be
interesed besides me but i thought i would throw it out.
There is an Internet company out there that will allow you to get Tshirts
made. you can set the price of them at cost so there is no profit made of
the sale of the tshirts. it takes a few mins to set up and they can produce
the shrits the next day.
I dont know if anyone besides me would be interested in the scout brew
tshirt but this is something to think about. If people are interested ill
forward the info so mark can go out and set it up.
some of the products you can get your image on are Mugs, Mouse pads,
tshirts, sweat shirts, and baby doll shirts. if anyone wants to see what im
talking about you can go to WWW.mr-bandwidth.com/aegiswolves/ and look under
merchandise. the items sold there are priced at 1 dollar over cost for
charity. but again they can be priced at cost.
Anyway I hope i dont get stoned. I just think it would be a blast to have a
"Scout Brew" T-Shirt
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 15:15:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Introduction
Antaine writes:
>Greetings All,
>Just a quick post to say hello and introduce myself to the list. My
>name is Antaine, and I am 34 yo bloke from Australia. I have played
>Traveller since around 80-81 but due to a real time Military career, I
>have been "away" from gaming for quite a few years. I am just re-
>involving myself and having found Downport.com, followed my nose
>and wound up in mIRC and now here. (Thanks Jeff for your advice on
>the major-domo error)
Welcome to the TML! You will likely find interesting, informative
entertaining and occasionaly frustrating. If you don't want any
trouble, just don't say the "P" word. :)
>I am a CT player and once I am back into the groove so to speak, I'll
>be running a game or two. I have to face the huge challenge now of
>finding some people for face to face gaming. Any Aussies in NSW
>feel free to e-mail me off-list and maybe we can arrange something.
Allright! Another True Believer.
>For the rest on the list, I usually post only if I have something to say
>or a question to ask, but hope to get to know a few fellow Sophonts
>around the globe.
Very nice to make your aquaintance.
:)
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 15:19:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: dog races/subspecies
Stephen writes:
>>Actually, there are people who claim exactly that. Unfortunately,
>>terms like "subspecies" carry emotional luggage. I believe that
>>"subspecies" is more difficult to define than species, but where
>>humans are involved there are even more complications.
>Total layman's question: are the different breeds of dog, like
>chihuahuas, great danes, etc, considered to be subspecies or "races"?
>ObTrav: the possibility of subspecies of Vargr, naturally...
Neither, they are breeds. ;)
There is no universal definition of species, and the various
subdivisions of species are even less certain. Subspecies,
races, breeds, varieties, phases, populations, forms,
regional types... it is pretty nebulous. Mostly they are
members of the same species that may be distinguished
by shared traits that are different from others of that
species.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:35:11 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Cordite loops
>> Det/prima-cord is very useful... but quite hard to get hold of :-(
>>
>> Makes good cutting charges for things like building entry. If you are
>> doing house clearance, the standard method is NOT to go in by the door -
>> the enemy sort of expect that. So you use a frame charge which is
>> basically prima-cord on a square wood frame (pre-prepared) to make a
>> 'mousehole' through which you first post a couple of grenades and then
>> effect your entry.
>Me, I'm from the school of thought that the Russian appear to belong to,
too.
>The best way to clear a house is with a battery of howizters.
>--
>"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Me i prefer an Air Strike with laser guided bombs 8P
My motto there are few problems that cant be solved with a sutable
application of Air Power. 8P
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:37:21 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
>Actually, that's what I was planning on ;) I got the font from John last
>night (or was it the night before...) so I'll be able to work on this soon.
>I need to finish something for SJG & BITS first, so it'll be about a week
>before I have a chance to do it.
>Best,
>Jesse
Thanks jesse 8) now i just need to get a website 8)
Hasta
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 20:39:05
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Mahina Tiare nose-art: 2nd attempt
Bill,
Good choice: I like Mark's better too. Please feel free to use anything I've
done on your web page and let me know if you would like anything done
differently.
Thanks again for the interesting project. It has given me a chance to dust
off some old skills and software.
Doing dinner sounds good, but I rarely get to SF. Let me know if you're ever
in Colorado.
John
>From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Mar 2001 10:35:11 -0800
>
>They are both Excellent Graphics. and I had to sit and think last night. It
>is a tough choice.
>
>That said I still Like Marks the best. And I would like to use Marks on the
>Ship that Jesse is going to slap together us. I would like to use both
>graphics on the web page if allowed. I am thinking that and the strips John
>has provided will help me create a little Polynesian feel.
>
>
>Hasta
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:51:41 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
> >Total layman's question: are the different breeds of dog, like
> >chihuahuas, great danes, etc, considered to be subspecies or "races"?
> >ObTrav: the possibility of subspecies of Vargr, naturally...
>
> Neither, they are breeds. ;)
>
This brings up the question. Canon material seems to suggests that all
Vargr are the same 'Breed', i.e. a kind of uplifted coyote or wolf. What do
list members think of differentiated 'breeds' of Vargr. Does anyone
(besides me) use a variety of Vargr 'breeds' in you TU?
Personally, I like the idea of a huge, hulking bruiser of a Vargr with
vaguely mastif qualities, or a short, wiry Vargr with lots of spunk and
energy.
Thoughts?
Tod
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3779
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3780
Date: | 3/7/01 5:00:05 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, March 7 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3780
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise
Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
House clearing
Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Intro
Re: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
Re: Crusades of the Future
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
Re: sapiens (long)
Re: Cloning Robots
RE: Astrogation design
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Re: sapiens (long)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3773
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
Re: House clearing
Re: Wealth
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 22:02:14
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise
We've discussed species separating into unique subspecies which develop
unique differences. Does the inverse occur, where two unique, but
interfertile subspecies interbreed and merge to the point one is completely
absorbed into the other? There would be some additional genetic diversity
introduced into the remaining population, but maybe not that pronounced.
Could that be what happened to Neanderthal?
John
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:05:45 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:29:49 -0000
> From: "Michael R. Blair" <michael@carrickfergus.schoolzone.co.uk>
> Subject: Dogs & Human Evolution
>
> Last Thursday night on a BBC Radio 4 science program they mentioned that
> dogs go back much further than previously thought, that they have been
> associated with man almost for as long as modern man has existed.
> To me it sounds as if the two species have almost evolved in parallel or
> symbiosis.
>
> Michael R. Blair
The two species talents complement each other nicely. The dogs keener
senses and the humans greater intelect. Note that Vargr have the higher
intellect as well as the improved senses and so they can be their own best
friends.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 22:12:25
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
I've always provided for the existance of breeds of Vargr. I also seem to
recall some canon statements supporting the idea. As flexible as the canine
species is, it would be able to adjust rapidly to suit the environments of
different worlds, maybe several times on each world. There was a show, I
think on Discovery (maybe the same one that was on the BBC), tracing the
spread of canines across the globe (independent of the human-dog
association) and showing how they changed size, coat, metabolism,
circulation patterns, etc. to adapt to each new environmental opening.
John
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
>This brings up the question. Canon material seems to suggests that all
>Vargr are the same 'Breed', i.e. a kind of uplifted coyote or wolf. What
>do
>list members think of differentiated 'breeds' of Vargr. Does anyone
>(besides me) use a variety of Vargr 'breeds' in you TU?
>
>Personally, I like the idea of a huge, hulking bruiser of a Vargr with
>vaguely mastif qualities, or a short, wiry Vargr with lots of spunk and
>energy.
>
>Thoughts?
>
>
>Tod
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:12:56 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: House clearing
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> types:
>Me, I'm from the school of thought that the Russian appear to belong to, too.
>The best way to clear a house is with a battery of howizters.
"The preferred method of entering a building is to use a tank main gun
round, direct fire artillery round, or TOW, Dragon, or Hellfire missile to
clear the first room." -- THE RANGER HANDBOOK U.S. Army, 1992
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco."
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:18:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>After all who does all the work, and who gets to laze about all day
>chasing cats and balls...;-P
Still, dogs must think that we're the greatest hunters ever (or at least
the greatest scavengers). We go out for an hour and we come back with
hunks of red meat, birds, and fish -- amounts of food that it would take
dogs days and days to accumulate.
- --Glenn
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:35:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Hopper <jeff37923@yahoo.com>
Subject: Intro
Hello.
My name is Jeff Hopper, a Traveller player who
started back in 1983 with CT and have followed it
through to the present. I'm an ex-Navy nuke who is
living in Tennessee building hazardous duty robots for
a living. I just wanted to stop lurking around this
site and say "Howdy!" to ya'all.
I'm part of a gaming group that is in Knoxville, but
none of them seem interested in playing Traveller
(Most of them are stuck in the D&D hack and slash
mode). I would like to contact other members in the
same area who would like to start up a regular game of
either Traveller (CT, TNE, T4, or GT) or 2300AD.
Contact me if interested.
I've got a couple of questions for the list, though.
There has been a lot of recent articles about a
plasma-based drive system which used radio waves to
heat up the hydrogen fuel called VASIMIR. I was
wondering if anyone out there has taken a shot at
writing this up as a maneuver drive for FF&S or FF&S2.
I'd like to compare notes.
Does anyone know of a set of rules governing
radiation exposure and its damaging effects for CT?
I've been able to find a kludge for TNE based on
Twilight:2000, but that is all. If anyone knows of
any, please let me know.
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 14:41:58 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Cordite loop??? RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3766
> > Cordite loop around the mainboard and a number eight detonator
> > will suffice.
>
> Don't you mean det-cord loop? :) I didn't think cordite came in cord
form.
> Mark?
I am reminded that cordite is also is useful for gettting sick time. Put a
piece under your tongue, and after a while you'll get heart palpitations,
look pastey and sweat alot. Just FYI.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 22:52:17 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Crusades of the Future
Amazing.
I didn't even know there was such a thing as projectile snorting.
Another keyboard kill.
Ben
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Trevor, Peter <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2001 12:23 PM
Subject: RE: Crusades of the Future
> Ben Aaronovitch wrote:
> > I couldn't help noticing recently that while religon is a hot
> > button issue so are programming languages. It occured to me that
> > in some societies, particularly high tech ones, various programming
> > languages could reflect (or even cause) philosophical differences
> > within or between societies that might lead to conflict. Perhaps
> > even violent conflict.
>
> Until recently I would have said that was a very silly idea. But
> now ...
>
> Obviously Star Trek got it wrong when they portrayed Mr Spock as
> a calm logical computer expert ... it seems that in RL there
> ain't no such thing! You can just imagine the fisticuffs
> breaking out during a symposium at the Vulcan Academy of Science.
>
> ObTrav: Programming languages ... the real reason behind the
> Rebellion. Strephon liked proprietry languages (anything MS)
> with their support and large user base, Dulinor thought everyone
> would benefit from the virtues of platform-independant Java, and
> Lucan was secretly just a malicious script-kiddie (who unleashed
> Mellissa 2).
>
> Regards PLST
> (aka Stalin)
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 15:26:24 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
At 10:12 PM -0800 3/7/01, John Lambert wrote:
>I've always provided for the existance of breeds of Vargr. I also
>seem to recall some canon statements supporting the idea. As
>flexible as the canine species is, it would be able to adjust
>rapidly to suit the environments of different worlds, maybe several
>times on each world. There was a show, I think on Discovery (maybe
>the same one that was on the BBC), tracing the spread of canines
>across the globe (independent of the human-dog association) and
>showing how they changed size, coat, metabolism, circulation
>patterns, etc. to adapt to each new environmental opening.
Much of the variation in dogs (and note: Vargr are not decendant from
dogs, but more root canine stock) is due to breeding by humans. If
allowed to breed freely, much of the variation would disappear.
Given Vargr society, forced breeding doesn't seem to be likely.
Also note: just like humans, Vargr evolved on one world and then
spread out into space with the technology to control their
environments.
There were breeds in one of the DGP publications. I never liked the idea
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:14:06 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: sapiens (long)
>
> Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:09:56
> From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
> Subject: RE: sapiens (long)
>
> >>Do the fruit flies show as much variation among their species as
> >>neanderthals and modern man do as subspecies?
> >That depends on what you mean by variation. A very large
> >can of several species of worms. :)
> >Oh. Well, I guess I mean a fairly lay definition. By that, are there are
> >clear and obvious differences that can be appreciated in the same way as
> >may
> >seperate modern humans and neanderthals.
>
> Another example of a species with a very wide range of variations is the dog
> (Canis familiaris). Of course, there was an agent encouraging the
> variations, us instead of the Ancients. In spite of the wide variations,
> dogs are interfertile, although certain crosses can cause problems due
> mostly to size. The difference between the breeds of dogs are far more
> extreme than between the human races in Traveller. (I live with two
> extremes: an 8-pound Maltese and two 140-pound Great Pyrenees.) I believe
> that there are significant genetic differences between wolves and dogs, but
> they are still interfertile.
>
I've done some research into this area (dogs and wolves). From what
I've been able to find dogs can interbreed with both wolves and coyotes,
and there isn't enough genetic differences to be able to tell if you
have a cross breed or not.
There is some evidence to indicate that dogs were domesticated several
different times from different sub-species of wolves. Then cross bred to
produce the wide variety seen today.
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:22:06 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: Cloning Robots
> John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com puts into the Ether:
> >A more moral (if far more expensive) option is a pseudobio robot. It
> >won't be cheap, but you could make a robot that can pass as
> >human. It's TL 15, but you could likely even grow the person's skin
> >around it, which combined with careful shielding will allow it to pass
> >nearly anything except a medical test. Of course, doing this will
> >likely cost at minimum 500,000 Credits, more if you want it to be
> >able to hold a simple human-seeming conversation. Probably more
> >like 2 MCr.
>
This concept has already been done almost to death. The original DPG
adventures in the Traveller Digest were all based around the Robiticist,
his experimental robot, and their travel through the Imperium.
IIRC, they managed to get to Capital just in time to see Dulinor shoot
Strephon, then escaped rimward and back to the Marches via the Aslan.
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 23:32:40 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Astrogation design
Does your software need a link from sector<-->subsector<-->system then
Stalin? I've not included that in the XML for data sharing, but will
if it will be needed.
- --
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:06:20
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
The Discovery program addressed the variation in canines excluding the
forced breeding of dogs. The original canines evolved into the wide variety
of wolves, foxes, and wild dogs. These different varieties vary greatly in
size and physical build to match extreme hot, cold, and dry environments.
The type of variation I would expect in the Vargr would be to such things as
high or low gravity, dim or bright light, etc. which are not easy to escape
using normal technology. The canines appear to be able to change physical
structure to adapt more than early man.
There is an article in the current Scientific American describing how
certain lizards (I don't have the article with me)on islands have evolved on
many islands into similar subspecies even though it appears that only one of
the subspecies was originally introduced onto the island.
John
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>
>At 10:12 PM -0800 3/7/01, John Lambert wrote:
>>I've always provided for the existance of breeds of Vargr. I also
>>seem to recall some canon statements supporting the idea. As
>>flexible as the canine species is, it would be able to adjust
>>rapidly to suit the environments of different worlds, maybe several
>>times on each world. There was a show, I think on Discovery (maybe
>>the same one that was on the BBC), tracing the spread of canines
>>across the globe (independent of the human-dog association) and
>>showing how they changed size, coat, metabolism, circulation
>>patterns, etc. to adapt to each new environmental opening.
>
>Much of the variation in dogs (and note: Vargr are not decendant from
>dogs, but more root canine stock) is due to breeding by humans. If
>allowed to breed freely, much of the variation would disappear.
>Given Vargr society, forced breeding doesn't seem to be likely.
>
>Also note: just like humans, Vargr evolved on one world and then
>spread out into space with the technology to control their
>environments.
>
>There were breeds in one of the DGP publications. I never liked the idea
>
>______________________________
>summers@alum.mit.edu
>(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in
>California.)
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:18:52
From: "David Interdonato" <digrazzi@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
Perhaps a new section could be added to the homeworld resolution section of
character generation. For instance a character that has thrown results to
describe that they and their family are long term residents of a world with
pretty odd living conditions a certain amount of +/- could be applied to
their attributes.
I have always assumed that the Vargr are as varied amoung themselves as
Solomani are varied. This generally is attained by the 2D6 throw of dice
for attributes. Meaning that yes Vargr are many different breeds/races,
they all fall within a Vargr-norm in the same way a Kalahari pygmie and a
Sumo wrestler are both perfectly human.
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:22:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Fetch me my food, monkey boy!
(at least, that's how my dog puts it...)
- --- Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:
> Michael R. Blair wrote:
>
> > Last Thursday night on a BBC Radio 4 science program they mentioned
> that
> > dogs go back much further than previously thought, that they have
> been
> > associated with man almost for as long as modern man has existed.
> > To me it sounds as if the two species have almost evolved in
> parallel or
> > symbiosis.
> >
> > Michael R. Blair
>
> Yeah, and the scientist who has found the greatest evidence for
> canid-hominid association is of the opinion that dogs have molded
> humans
> as much as humans have molded dogs, that we are much more pack-like
> than
> we would otherwise be.
>
> Of coure my dogs just look at me, grin, and say 'Duh!' but, we
> two-footers are sometimes slow to catch on.
>
> After all who does all the work, and who gets to laze about all day
> chasing cats and balls...;-P
>
>
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
>
=====
Gerry Harris
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:24:12 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: sapiens (long)
Thom Jones-Low wrote:
> I've done some research into this area (dogs and wolves). From what
> I've been able to find dogs can interbreed with both wolves and coyotes,
> and there isn't enough genetic differences to be able to tell if you
> have a cross breed or not.
Absolutely. There is some debate regarding whether the endangered Eastern Red Wolf ever was anything but a cross between coyotes and gray wolves.
This is the largets argument on the side of the taxonomists that lump
them all into a single species.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:26:16 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3773
Walt Smith wrote:
> Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:
>
>> Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>> > This is true, but you know, America earned this reputation.
>> >
>> > There are good beers in America NOW, mostly from microbreweries,
>> but when
>> > I was a kid and first began to drink beer, the choices were pretty
>> much:
>> >
>> > Budweiser, Miller, Coors, Schaefer, and Generic.
>>
>> One word: Prohibition. Prohibition was the Great Extinction for
>> breweries in the US; prior to Prohibition, beer was made and consumed
>> locally, and there were few (if any) national brands.
>
>
> Hmmm...I'm taking a class in Management at my workplace now,
> we just did a bit on the development of the US national
> brewing industry. According to our textbook, the US brewing
> industry was still made up of hundreds of small regional
> companies right up until 1960. A few successful ones (the makers
> of the beers listed above) started going after larger markets at
> about that time, buying out and closing down local breweries in
> other regions. They'd still market the local brand for a while,
> but they'd closely link it with their national name.
>
> The critical transition period between "every city has a local
> brewing company" and "six nationwide companies have 75% of the beer
> market" seemed to be between 1960 and 1979, long after prohibition.
> Not that many breweries didn't go under when Prohibition reduced
> them to making non-alcoholic beer or alternate products, but our
> class readings seem to indicate that many more sprang up when the
> "Great Experiment" of Prohibition was ended.
>
> Always interesting to see different views of history - an
> industry insider associating the change with Prohibition, a team
> of management analysts (the writers of our textbook) associating
> the change with other factors like the development of nationwide
> television networks (and the associated advertising markets).
Hmm, much of my infoprmation was based on reading _Beer Blast_, whihc covered a lot of that ground.
Does your textbook give sources for their info? I'd like to see some of it.
(It's likely that they're right, and I'm wrong.)
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:28:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
- --- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
<<...i.e. a kind of uplifted coyote or wolf.>>
This brings up the question: Do Vargr consider Wile E. Coyote to be a
comic genius or a racist stereotype?
=====
Gerry Harris
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Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 16:52:23 -0800
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net>
Subject: Re: House clearing
From: "Mark Urbin" <urbin@bigfoot.com> replied to:
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> types:
> >Me, I'm from the school of thought that the Russian appear to belong to,
too.
> >The best way to clear a house is with a battery of howizters.
>
> "The preferred method of entering a building is to use a tank main gun
> round, direct fire artillery round, or TOW, Dragon, or Hellfire missile to
> clear the first room." -- THE RANGER HANDBOOK U.S. Army, 1992
Those are both good systems, but I think the original idea was to keep some
of the hostages alive. <G>
Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor
Next year, at Burning Man!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 01:56:59 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Wealth
Peter Newman writes:
>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote
>
>>Peter Newman writes:
>>>Are you trying to tell me that when you walk into a store with Imperial
>>>Credits and the shopkeeper refuses to accept them that the Imperial
>>>government is going to let them get away with it?
>>
>>The question is moot, because the conditions doesn't exist. There IS trade
>>between the planets of the Imperium and consequently people CAN buy stuff they
>>want with Imperial credits.
>
>You are evading the question. The question is not if buyers can buy with
>Imperial credits but if sellers must accept Imperial credits.
I'm not evading the question, I'm telling you that it is meaningless because it
presupposes a condition that doesn't exist. It is on a par with questions like
"If Strephon was a Vargr, would he be able to make Brzk obey him?"
>>>The most expensive goods the Imperium uses are probably capital class
>>>starships. Canon establishes that many types of starships are built at
>>>many locations.
>>
>>What's your point? If that isn't an example of the Imperium taking its taxes
>>out in kind then I don't know what is.
>
>I'm asserting that the most expensive thing they buy can lift itself off of a
>planetary surface. Thus it need not be "physically lifted off the planetary
>surface and moved elsewhere" but rather it transports itself.
And what difference does that make? You're claiming that if the planet gives the
subsector duke a sackful of Imperial credits, the planet is poorer by that
amount. I'm claiming that unless the subsector duke actually shows up and
demands goods for those credits then the planet isn't poorer by one jot. That
the goods can move by themselves is completely irrelevant to that argument.
>>In other words, they buy goods and transport them off-world. Just as I said.
>
>No. I am asserting that they are more likely to have them
>transported off world than to transport them off world themselves.
A distinction without any meaning. The point is still that the Imperium has no
joy whatsoever of owning a crate of Crimp notes unless they plan to use them to
buy goods (or services).
>>And that trade is how the wealth is transferred from planet to planet. The
>>exchange of Crimps is merely a way to keep score. A tally. Promisory notes.
>
>No because the Imperial Credit can be, and is, used for internal
>commerce as well as external commerce. Thus the Imperial Credit
>serves as a medium of exchange as well.
A lot of people has the same trouble you have distinguishing between the wealth
and the markers. It's an illusion that works as long as everybody believes in
it. But ask anyone who's found a fortune in Confederate money how rich they are.
>>And if they can't use those credit to buy stuff on another planet then the
>>Imperium is not good for the debt. You're arguing in circles. The reason people
>>accept Crimps is precisely because they know they CAN buy stuff from other
>>worlds with it. If they couldn't, they wouldn't accept them.
>
>Not exactly. What I am asserting is that because the Imperium is willing to
>kill people who don't accept the Imperial credit this provides an incentive
>for people to accept the Imperial credit.
You do realise that you have no evidence to support your CLAIM that the Imperium
is willing to kill people who won't accept Imperial credits.
>Even people who are willing to risk being killed will accept the credit
>because they know that others will accept it or risk being killed.
People accept Imperial credits because they can buy something for them, not
because they are afraid not to. And the reason they can buy stuff with Crimps is
that stuff is, indeed, traded between planets. If that wasn't the case, they
wouldn't be able to buy stuff with their Crimp.
>>>For a member world to say that is clearly rebellious. There is a very good
>>>reason why the Imperial navy has weapons of mass destruction and it is not
>>>the Zhodani.
>>>Read your MT.
>>
>>In the interest of keeping this civil I'll refrain from replying to this the
>>way it so richly deserves.
>
>If, as usual, you're going to be snide about this I may as well
>note that I've rarely known you to be civil and this is not one
>of those times.
To imply that the MT books support your contentions and that the only reason I'm
arguing against them must be that I haven't read them properly is extremely rude
of you. I consider my gentle reproach quite restrained. Perhaps you should look
up 'civil' in the dictionary. I don't think it means what you think it means.
>You constantly project the patronizing attitude that you know Traveller better
>than others.
While I'm sorry to hear that I come across as patronizing and willing to try to
remedy that, I don't think being patronizing is incompatible with being civil.
>Much of the time your belief is correct but there are people [1]
>who know it as well and merely interpret it differently.
So there are, and on several occasions I've been persuaded that they were right
and I was wrong. On more occasions I've come to agree to disagree with them.
This is not one of those occasions.
>MT canon clearly establishes that the Imperial Navy did use it's weapons on
>its people. It establishes that at least billions of people died as a result.
Yes, but it doesn't say that they did this because those planets refused to
accept Imperial credits. And unless that was what you were implying, the whole
argument makes no sense at all in connection with this discussion.
Look, let's start again. It's obvious that i've failed to explain myself
adequately. Let me try a different tack.
I'm going to promise you a beer. I mean that sincerely. Show up on my doorstep
and I'll take you out and buy you a beer. Now, doesn't that quench your thirst
remarkably? I didn't think it would. You've just recieved an electronic transfer
of funds, an electronic IOU:
- ----------------------
| |
| IOU one beer. |
| |
| Hans Rancke |
|_____________________|
Now, you can print that out and frame it, but unless you actually come over to
Denmark and collect, you're not one bit better off than before. And I'm not a
bit worse off. I've got a beer in my larder (left behind by a visitor), and
unless you show up one day to collect it, I'm going to keep on having that beer
in my larder. In the same way, a planet can send a message to the subsector duke
that they owe him 10 billion credits, but unless he shows up to collect ships or
supplies to the tune of 10 billion credits, the planet is not one decicred
poorer.
Hans
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3780
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3781
Date: | 3/7/01 11:49:16 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Thursday, March 8 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3781
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
RE: Wealth
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
RE: Wealth
Re: Cordite loop???
Re: Wealth
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
re: Intro
RE: Cordite loops
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
Qship design questions
FFS2 design characteristics
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
Re: Cordite loops
RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
Re: Wealth
Re: Cordite loop???
Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Re: Cloning Robots
RE: Crusades of the Future
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Re: Wealth
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:59:10 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise
Stephen wrote:
>Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> writes:
>
>> Actually, there are people who claim exactly that.
Unfortunately,
>> terms like "subspecies" carry emotional luggage. I believe
that
>> "subspecies" is more difficult to define than species, but
where
>> humans are involved there are even more complications.
>
>Total layman's question: are the different breeds of dog, like
>chihuahuas, great danes, etc, considered to be subspecies or "races"?
The different breeds of dogs are all the same species (Canis
familiaris), some call them seperate sub-species.
ObTrav: Alien Modules 6 calls them seperate sub-species.
Dogs, wolves (Canis lupis), and coyotes (Canis latrans) are
interfertile, and thus may be misclassified as seperate species.
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 01:02:12
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
This is exactly the sort of variation I envision. There will be a Vargr
norm, but the Vargr will display a wider range of physical adaptation to an
environment than the Solomani would. These variations would not be as
extreme as the variety in dog breeds (although it is this genetic
flexibility that dog breeders have capitalized on). The variations would be
reflected in heavier or lighter builds, heavier or lighter coats (possibly
with undercoats), darker or lighter coats, etc. possibliity with localized
color trends (like humans). They would all be recognizable as Vargr, but an
expert could place Vargr's homeworld more easily than a Solomani's.
John
>From: "David Interdonato" <digrazzi@hotmail.com>
>
>Perhaps a new section could be added to the homeworld resolution section of
>character generation. For instance a character that has thrown results to
>describe that they and their family are long term residents of a world with
>pretty odd living conditions a certain amount of +/- could be applied to
>their attributes.
>
>I have always assumed that the Vargr are as varied amoung themselves as
>Solomani are varied. This generally is attained by the 2D6 throw of dice
>for attributes. Meaning that yes Vargr are many different breeds/races,
>they all fall within a Vargr-norm in the same way a Kalahari pygmie and a
>Sumo wrestler are both perfectly human.
>
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:11:57 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Wealth
- ----------------------
| |
| IOU one beer. |
| |
| Hans Rancke |
|_____________________|
Now i just have to figure out how to get to Denmark! WOOT! im one beer
richer 8P
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 18:34:13 -0700
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <jps64@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
At 03:26 PM 3/7/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>There were breeds in one of the DGP publications. I never liked the idea
Vilani & Vargr - I actually sort of liked the idea of Vargr breeds myself.
Paul
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 17:32:02 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Wealth
- ----------------------
| |
| IOU one beer. |
| |
| Hans Rancke |
|_____________________|
DOH im missing the whole point of this this discussion. If i can find
someone who is going to Denmark i can barter with them to accept my Beer at
face value. and there by get them to buy me a beer here. then they can take
the Beer Buck(tm) to denmark and cash in. WOOT!
Anyone going to denmark any time soon?
I place total faith ion the face value of my Beer Buck(tm) 8P
Hasta
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 17:26:37 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Cordite loop???
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>I am reminded that cordite is also is useful for gettting sick time. Put a
>piece under your tongue, and after a while you'll get heart palpitations,
>look pastey and sweat alot. Just FYI.
...and if you put too *big* a piece under your tongue, you'll get cardiac
arrest, look blue, and not sweat at all. It's the nitro in the cordite, you
see. It's a smooth-muscle relaxant and coronary artery dilator.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:45:04 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Wealth
Peter Newman wrote:
>You are evading the question. The question is not if buyers
>can buy with Imperial credits but if sellers must accept
>Imperial credits.
IMTU, no sellers do not have to accept Imperial Credits. But if they
want to stay in business, they need to accept the most common and most
stable currency locally available. The only places in the Imperium that
you would find that it is hard to buy things with CrImps would be the
outback areas of worlds. The closer you are to the starport (travel
time/communications time) the more places will accept CrImps.
>What if Eneri Q Public is domain manager for a mega corporation
>and he (after a Vilani style consensus is achieved) announces
>that they will no longer accept CrImps?
What more common AND more stable currency was available for his company
to accept? Congratulations, he just gave 90% of his coustomer base to
the competition.
Hans wrote:
>> And if they can't use those credit to buy stuff on another planet
then the
>> Imperium is not good for the debt. You're arguing in circles. The
reason people
>> accept Crimps is precisely because they know they CAN buy stuff from
other
>> worlds with it. If they couldn't, they wouldn't accept them.
>
>Not exactly. What I am asserting is that because the Imperium
>is willing to kill people who don't accept the Imperial credit
>this provides an incentive for people to accept the Imperial
>credit. Even people who are willing to risk being killed will
>accept the credit because they know that others will accept
>it or risk being killed.
I agree with Hans on this. People will use the form of currency that is
most common and stable, this will be a currency that the bearer can
exchange the currency for wanted products and/or services within an
acceptable length of time. He will not likely want to return to a
planet that has issued the currency to exchange it. The Imperium pays
its bills, saleries, and aid in Imperial Credits, therefore there are a
lot of CrImps moving about in and around starports, therefore the CrImps
are a very common currency for travellers. Also Imperial run
organizations such as the SPA require payment in CrImps. (Imperial tax
collectors may accept anything that they can convert to CrImps)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 02:57:14 +0100
From: "Patrik Holmström" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
>Robert O'Connor wrote:
>>Another, interesting point, as the Solomani & Vilani
>>intermingled, just what effect would the spread of different blood
>>proteins have?
>
>From a clinical standpoint, not a lot. It makes haemolytic disease a
> >little more likely. Blood and tissues are somewhat more difficult to
> >cross-match. Solomani medical tech over the period should cope easily.
However that period was ended quite abruptly by the long night not many
years after the Nth interstellar war (and the spreading of Solomani humans).
The situation would be a lot worse with TL0-6 medicine, right?
Patrik
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:13:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Intro
>From: Jeff Hopper <jeff37923@yahoo.com>
> Does anyone know of a set of rules governing
>radiation exposure and its damaging effects for CT?
>I've been able to find a kludge for TNE based on
>Twilight:2000, but that is all. If anyone knows of
>any, please let me know.
DGP wrote some rules for this in Traveller's Digest or Megatraveller
Journal, but I think they apply to MT.
This would be a good newbie essay.
- --Glenn
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Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:57:33 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: RE: Cordite loops
> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 12:35:11 -0800
> From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
> Subject: RE: Cordite loops
>
<snip>
> >Me, I'm from the school of thought that the Russian appear to belong to,
> too.
> >The best way to clear a house is with a battery of howizters.
>
> >--
> >"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
> Me i prefer an Air Strike with laser guided bombs 8P
>
> My motto there are few problems that cant be solved with a sutable
> application of Air Power. 8P
It's a pity that most of the historical evidence suggests that neither
approach is particularly effective. Blowing buildings up just leaves
lots of rubble for defenders to slink around in.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 19:11:33 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:51:41 -0800
> From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> Subject: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
>
<snip>
>
> This brings up the question. Canon material seems to suggests that all
> Vargr are the same 'Breed', i.e. a kind of uplifted coyote or wolf. What
do
> list members think of differentiated 'breeds' of Vargr. Does anyone
> (besides me) use a variety of Vargr 'breeds' in you TU?
First off I would hesitate to call subspecies of vargr "breeds" on the
theory that vargr aren't bread. (sp?) Secondly I doubt I'd make a big
deal about different subspecies of vargr unless I was willing to deal
with the ugly implications of racism. On the other hand I have heard
of cannon mentions of different subspecies in some obscure dgp stuff
so YMMV.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 18:20:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
>This brings up the question: Do Vargr consider Wile E. Coyote to be a
>comic genius or a racist stereotype?
I asked two Vargr that question and got the following four answers: Yes,
no, who cares?, and would you please clarify the question?
- --Glenn
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 03:24:02 +0100
From: "Patrik Holmström" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Qship design questions
I have been busy the last 2 weeks pulling 80-90 h a week (if I could find
the administrator who thinks this is reasonable for only 200$ a month and
the privilege of putting myself 500$ in dept every month...) so I have been
unable to answer Mr Larsons questions on my Q-ship design. However the
answers given by Jens Rydholm, John Groth and others (my thanks) were very
accurate. Now that I have cleared my 1,5 Mb backlog I can answer any
questions left unclear.
Patrik Holmström
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 03:32:04 +0100
From: "Patrik Holmström" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: FFS2 design characteristics
>John Groth wrote
>For instance, we at AuricTech Shipyards tend to prioritize ship
>characteristics as follows (in approximate order, from most to least
>important): performance (both n-space and jump), sensor range,
>habitability (very few AuricTech ships use double-occupancy staterooms
>or bunks), armor, weapons, and small craft capacity, with the exact
>order of these characteristics depending on the mission of the ship in
>question. (Note that these priorities tend to drive prices _way_ up.)
Dimashq favour similar design guidelines as AuricTech with the main
difference being heavier use of stealth. We sometimes favour armour over
acceleration if the benefit is large enough (i.e for very large designs).
>Other firms, such as Gridlore Technologies, Dimashq Shipyards, and
>Famille Spofulam have different design philosophies. None of these is
>wrong, yet none of these yards would approach a design in quite the
>high-capability, high-cost way that AuricTech does.
The most expensive vessel I have seen to date however is the Dimashq 900kdt
"Recurrent Glory" (1498 GCr) leaving the AuricTech 1000kdt "Shiva" (1353GCr)
in third place after the 800kdt "Mengingjord" (1373 GCr), another Dimashq
design. However I have great faith in AuricTech's ability to remedy this
situation. <g>
Sidenote: It's impossible to play a game of TCS with any of the above
designs. :)
Patrik Holmström <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 20:47:17 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
John Lambert wrote:
>I've always provided for the existance of breeds of Vargr. I also seem
to
>recall some canon statements supporting the idea. As flexible as the
canine
>species is, it would be able to adjust rapidly to suit the environments
of
>different worlds, maybe several times on each world. There was a show,
I
>think on Discovery (maybe the same one that was on the BBC), tracing
the
>spread of canines across the globe (independent of the human-dog
>association) and showing how they changed size, coat, metabolism,
>circulation patterns, etc. to adapt to each new environmental opening.
I agree with you.
DGP's Vilani and Vargr states that most Vargr subspecies have been
driven coreward, and are thus unknown to humans. (pg 63)
canon??? ( I cannot seem to find my Alien Module 3, Vargr)
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 19:57:27 -0800
From: Cheryl <cheryl@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Cordite loops
on 3/7/01 4:00 AM, Megan Robertson at mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk wrote:
> In-Reply-To: <B6CB1E21.49A5%drgoon@netaxs.com>
> Greetings dear hearts.
>
> Det/prima-cord is very useful... but quite hard to get hold of :-(
>
<snip>
Actually, it's really common, because it's used by the commercial explosives
users as well as the military. Any place that you can legitimately buy
dynamite, you can also likely acquire det cord. "hard to get hold of" is of
course, relative to your level of local regulations. In many states (in the
U.S.) all you have to do is show photo ID, fill out a federal form, pay the
dealer and load it into a placarded vehicle.
- -Cheryl Glenn
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:53:43 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
This would imply that the Vargr *are* a race superior to humaniti.
Better keep this wild theory under wraps....
- -----Original Message-----
From: DaveShayne [mailto:daveshayne@email.msn.com]
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 9:06 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
> Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:29:49 -0000
> From: "Michael R. Blair" <michael@carrickfergus.schoolzone.co.uk>
> Subject: Dogs & Human Evolution
>
> Last Thursday night on a BBC Radio 4 science program they mentioned
that
> dogs go back much further than previously thought, that they have been
> associated with man almost for as long as modern man has existed.
> To me it sounds as if the two species have almost evolved in parallel
or
> symbiosis.
>
> Michael R. Blair
The two species talents complement each other nicely. The dogs keener
senses and the humans greater intelect. Note that Vargr have the higher
intellect as well as the improved senses and so they can be their own
best
friends.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:06:03 -0800
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Wealth
>
> ----------------------
> | |
> | IOU one beer. |
> | |
> | Hans Rancke |
> |_____________________|
>
>
> Now i just have to figure out how to get to Denmark! WOOT! im one beer
> richer 8P
>
> Bill
>
>
ROFL!
Hans is going to owe everybody beer!
Let's all go to Denmark!
Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor
Next year, at Burning Man!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 20:07:56 -0800
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Cordite loop???
> Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>
> >I am reminded that cordite is also is useful for gettting sick time. Put
a
> >piece under your tongue, and after a while you'll get heart palpitations,
> >look pastey and sweat alot. Just FYI.
>
> ...and if you put too *big* a piece under your tongue, you'll get cardiac
> arrest, look blue, and not sweat at all. It's the nitro in the cordite,
you
> see. It's a smooth-muscle relaxant and coronary artery dilator.
>
> - Mark C.
>
Thank you. I've always wondered what the mechanism behind that trick was.
Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor
Next year, at Burning Man!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:35:55 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
At 05:05 PM 3/7/2001 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
>The two species talents complement each other nicely. The dogs keener
>senses and the humans greater intelect. Note that Vargr have the higher
>intellect as well as the improved senses and so they can be their own best
>friends.
I'm Mawg.
Half-man, half-dog.
I'm my own best friend.
John Candy as Mawg
Space Balls
Jimmy Simpson
nimrodd@mail.com
"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
-Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:33:32 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cloning Robots
At 07:22 PM 3/7/2001 -0500, Thomas Jones-Low wrote:
> > John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com puts into the Ether:
> > >A more moral (if far more expensive) option is a pseudobio robot. It
> > >won't be cheap, but you could make a robot that can pass as
> > >human. It's TL 15, but you could likely even grow the person's skin
> > >around it, which combined with careful shielding will allow it to pass
> > >nearly anything except a medical test. Of course, doing this will
> > >likely cost at minimum 500,000 Credits, more if you want it to be
> > >able to hold a simple human-seeming conversation. Probably more
> > >like 2 MCr.
> >
> This concept has already been done almost to death. The original DPG
>adventures in the Traveller Digest were all based around the Robiticist,
>his experimental robot, and their travel through the Imperium.
> IIRC, they managed to get to Capital just in time to see Dulinor
> shoot
>Strephon, then escaped rimward and back to the Marches via the Aslan.
No, they were about 11 years too early (1105) for the assassination, but
they did get to see Norris' holorep petitioning the emperor for command of
the Spinward Marches fleets should war break out with the Zhodani
(5FW). If you can get a copy of 101 robots, they have the break down for
AB-101 (Aybee Wan Owen (sp?)) and his cost is about MCr11, but he is
cutting edge tech. There is another pseudo-bio robot listed for about MCr1.5.
Jimmy Simpson
nimrodd@mail.com
"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
-Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:06:56 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Crusades of the Future
Ben Aaronovitch wrote :
> I couldn't help noticing recently that while religon
> is a hot button issue so are programming languages.
> It occured to me that in some societies, particularly
> high tech ones, various programming languages could
> reflect (or even cause)philosophical differences
> within or between societies that might lead to
> conflict. Perhaps even violent conflict.
That's what TNE is.
What you don't want to use the Virus Operating System ?
Heathen Machine Hater ! Die !
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:10:20 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Trevor, Peter wrote:
> I've been a professional programmer since 1987, worked for the
> construction industry, automotive, telecoms, several merchant
> banks, software houses, and multinationals. My question is this:
> what's a "pointer"?
A block of memory, ontaining the memory address of some other block of
memory.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:12:49 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Gordon Hundley wrote :
> on 7/3/01 6:52 am, Trevor, Peter at Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:
> > I've been a professional programmer since 1987, worked for the
> > construction industry, automotive, telecoms, several merchant
> > banks, software houses, and multinationals. My question is this:
> > what's a "pointer"?
>
> Simply C jargon for a call by reference rather than by value.
Nope, it's not a "call" at all.
Franie
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 23:39:01 -0800
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Wealth
On Thu, 8 Mar 2001 01:56:59 +0100, Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote:
>Look, let's start again. It's obvious that i've failed to explain myself
>adequately. Let me try a different tack.
>
>I'm going to promise you a beer. I mean that sincerely. Show up on my
>doorstep and I'll take you out and buy you a beer. Now, doesn't that
>quench your thirst remarkably? I didn't think it would. You've just
>recieved an electronic transfer of funds, an electronic IOU:
>
>- ---------------------
>| |
>| IOU one beer. |
>| |
>| Hans Rancke |
>|_____________________|
>
>Now, you can print that out and frame it, but unless you actually come over
>to Denmark and collect, you're not one bit better off than before. And I'm
>not a bit worse off. I've got a beer in my larder (left behind by a visitor),
>and unless you show up one day to collect it, I'm going to keep on having
>that beer in my larder.
Alternatively, Mr. Newman can trade that IOU to someone else (for whatever
item, service, or other thing of value they agree upon) who thinks he might
be able to trade it to someone else etc, etc, until it winds up in the
hands of someone living in or visiting your town. And as the IOU is for
"bearer", they can turn up on your doorstep and ask for that beer.
This is how currency works. :) And that about exhausts MY knowledge of the
black art known as "economics".
(Incidentally, Hans, aren't you worried that Peter might start printing out
hundreds, even thousands of copies of that IOU - minting his own
Hans-braus, basically? If enough holders try to negotiate their currency
at once, you could soon find yourself out of specie.)
- --------------
Kelly St.Clair "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org Right here in fair Verona
With a capital T that rhymes with D
That stands for Duel..."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 23:47:54 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
At 10:12 PM -0800 3/7/01, John Lambert wrote:
> I've always provided for the existance of breeds of Vargr. I also
> seem to recall some canon statements supporting the idea. As flexible
> as the canine species is, it would be able to adjust rapidly to suit
> the environments of different worlds, maybe several times on each
> world. There was a show, I think on Discovery (maybe the same one
> that was on the BBC), tracing the spread of canines across the globe
> (independent of the human-dog association) and showing how they
> changed size, coat, metabolism, circulation patterns, etc. to adapt
> to each new environmental opening.
Digest Group Publications did this in Vilani and Vargr. There were
the sub-species of Urzaeng Vargr who were larger and stronger
than normal (STR & END 2d+2, DEX & INT 2d-1). In the book there
were supposed to have originally be bred by the Ancients for
menial work and guard duty. THey also described an exceedingly
rare pygmy sub-species (the Kokasha) and a wacky blind psionic
sub-species. I really liked the Urzaeng and the Kokasha, but the
Roth Thokken (the blind psis) were perhaps a bit too odd.
All these sub-species were small minorities and the only one that
were at all common were the Urzaeng. I'd say maybe ~10% of
Vargr are minor sub-species and around 95% of those are are
Urzaeng.
On a similar note, in the MT Journal DPG also described an
interesting human minor race pair of the Barnai and the Feskals of
the Florian League (of the Trojan Reach sector). These were two
human minor races that originated on one world. One was small,
very smart and not terribly strong, the others were big and dumb (in
the description the dumb ones sounded on the level of maybe
homo erectus or maybe even less (ie substantially lower
intellectual capacity, intermediate between chimps and us). The
cool part was the League was a strict democracy and neither group
was oppressed or enslaved. IIRC, the two species were not
interfertile. These were described as an Ancient genetic
experiment rather than natural evolution.
However, it is certainly possible that there might be a minor human
race where simply hadn't evolved very far mentally. The brain of a
homo erectus was about 0.75% the size of a modern humans.
This doesn't mean they were dumber, since among humans brain
size certainly doesn't correlate well with intelligence. However,
they might well be honestly less capable of abstract thought and
complex reasoning (maybe rolling their INT score on 1D6+1or even
1D3+1). Running into some corporation who was enslaving the
members of such a minor race could make for an interesting
adventure dealing with complex moral points (like the dividing line
between slaves and domestic animals).
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3781
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3782
Date: | 3/8/01 6:58:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Thursday, March 8 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3782
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Re: Scout Brew....
Re: Wealth
Re: Dogs.
RE: Breeds of Vargr & Human Selectivity (or the lack thereof)
RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
RE: Intro
RE: Astrogation design
Re: Wealth
Re: Cordite loops
RE: [still way off topic] License to Program
Re: Wealth
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise
RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
RE: Intro
Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:55:38 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
On Wed, 7 Mar 2001, DaveShayne wrote:
[on dogs and humans]
> The two species talents complement each other nicely. The dogs keener
> senses and the humans greater intelect. Note that Vargr have the higher
> intellect as well as the improved senses and so they can be their own best
> friends.
Reminds me of the Mog called Barf, who is his best friend. (Half-man,
half-dog.)
Yes, he might be a good Vargr example...
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:08:35 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@home.com>
Subject: Re: Scout Brew....
William Lane wrote:
> Anyway I hope i dont get stoned. I just think it would be a blast to have a
> "Scout Brew" T-Shirt
Better yet being from the non tee shirt crowd A Ball Cap.
- --
"Fortes fortuna juvat"
Evyn
"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition."
-- William Shakespeare, King Henry the Fifth, IV:iii:60-63
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:21:53 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Wealth
Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote
> Peter Newman writes:
> >Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> wrote
> >>Peter Newman writes:
> >>>Are you trying to tell me that when you walk into a store with Imperial
> >>>Credits and the shopkeeper refuses to accept them that the Imperial
> >>>government is going to let them get away with it?
> >>
> >>The question is moot, because the conditions doesn't exist. There IS trade
> >>between the planets of the Imperium and consequently people CAN buy stuff
> >>they want with Imperial credits.
> >
> >You are evading the question. The question is not if buyers can buy with
> >Imperial credits but if sellers must accept Imperial credits.
>
> I'm not evading the question, I'm telling you that it is meaningless because it
> presupposes a condition that doesn't exist. It is on a par with questions like
> "If Strephon was a Vargr, would he be able to make Brzk obey him?"
Let me try to make myself clear. Traveller is a role playing
game. The question I am asking is "Suppose that the players go
into the only bar on a low population planet within the Imperium
and order a drink. The bartender requires payment in advance. For
some strange and illogical reason of his own he will not take Imperial
credits as payment, despite the fact that he could spend them easily.
Can the characters get Imperial law enforcement agents to make
the bartender take their credits or are they S.O.L.?"
The question I am asking is not if Imperial credits are generally
accepted, the question I am asking is "Must Imperial credits,
as a matter of law, be accepted?" I am simply stating that my
reading of canon about the fall of the Second Imperium and T4
canon about the formation of the Third Imperium make me believe
that the Third Imperium seems like the sort of place that would
require its people to take Imperial credits. Your mileage may
vary.
> >>>The most expensive goods the Imperium uses are probably capital class
> >>>starships. Canon establishes that many types of starships are built at
> >>>many locations.
> >>
> >>What's your point? If that isn't an example of the Imperium taking its taxes
> >>out in kind then I don't know what is.
> >
> >I'm asserting that the most expensive thing they buy can lift itself off of a
> >planetary surface. Thus it need not be "physically lifted off the planetary
> >surface and moved elsewhere" but rather it transports itself.
>
> And what difference does that make?
If you have to move a box full of something across a few score
parsecs you're going to have to pay through the nose to do so,
typically CR 1,000 per ton per jump. If you move a 500,000 ton
starship one jump you don't usually have to pay Cr 500,000,000
to do so.
If you want to move that brand new Tigress that you just had built
in Core Sector out to one of the borders all you have to pay for
is crew salary, maintenance and unrefined fuel (you could even skip
the fuel costs by using a handy gas giant). Therefore the fact that
the one of the most expensive things the Imperium ever buys (capital
ships) can move themselves for way less (per parsec/ton) than other
goods means that it does not (on average) cost the Imperium as
much to move stuff as it would if they shipped it all as freight.
This may make a big monetary difference.
> You're claiming that if the planet gives the
> subsector duke a sackful of Imperial credits, the planet is poorer by that
> amount.
No, I never intended to claim that. What I'm saying is say that
the government of Regina has a sack full of money. They could
either use this money to go buy stuff they want _or_ they could
use that money to pay their taxes. When they chose to pay their taxes
they incur the opportunity cost of not being able to spend that
money on other stuff.
> I'm claiming that unless the subsector duke actually shows up and
> demands goods for those credits then the planet isn't poorer by one jot. That
> the goods can move by themselves is completely irrelevant to that argument.
The planet is poorer because if they had not given the credits to
the Imperium they could have blown it all on something else.
> >>In other words, they buy goods and transport them off-world. Just as I said.
> >
> >No. I am asserting that they are more likely to have them
> >transported off world than to transport them off world themselves.
>
> A distinction without any meaning.
The point, as I explained above, had to do with the cost per
ton to do so.
> >No because the Imperial Credit can be, and is, used for internal
> >commerce as well as external commerce. Thus the Imperial Credit
> >serves as a medium of exchange as well.
>
> A lot of people has the same trouble you have distinguishing between the wealth
> and the markers. It's an illusion that works as long as everybody believes in
> it. But ask anyone who's found a fortune in Confederate money how rich they are.
I am quite familiar with the difference, thank you very much.
While I don't want to turn this into ECON 101 I will simply note
that most modern economists believe that money has several uses.
I was asserting that the use of money in this case was an a
medium of exchange.
> >>And if they can't use those credit to buy stuff on another planet then the
> >>Imperium is not good for the debt. You're arguing in circles. The reason
> >>people accept Crimps is precisely because they know they CAN buy stuff from
> >>other worlds with it. If they couldn't, they wouldn't accept them.
> >Not exactly. What I am asserting is that because the Imperium is willing to
> >kill people who don't accept the Imperial credit this provides an incentive
> >for people to accept the Imperial credit.
>
> You do realise that you have no evidence to support your CLAIM that the
> Imperium is willing to kill people who won't accept Imperial credits.
If you mean a direct quote saying so than no I don't. However
canon (The Warrant of Restoration) establishes that trade is very
important to the Imperium and that the Imperium reserves the right
to do what it wants. Therefore I am asserting that canon supports
my claim that they have the power and the right to kill people
who do not accept Imperial credits. Canon also establishes that
when people and governments do things the Imeprium does not like
(using nukes, etc) the Imperium sometimes kills them for doing
so (Imperial Intervention). Therefore _if_ the Imperium cares
enough about people not taking Imperial credits they might indeed
kill over it,
> >>>For a member world to say that is clearly rebellious. There is a very good
> >>>reason why the Imperial navy has weapons of mass destruction and it is not
> >>>the Zhodani.
> >>>Read your MT.
> >>
> >>In the interest of keeping this civil I'll refrain from replying to this the
> >>way it so richly deserves.
> >
> >If, as usual, you're going to be snide about this I may as well
> >note that I've rarely known you to be civil and this is not one
> >of those times.
>
> To imply that the MT books support your contentions and that
> the only reason I'm arguing against them must be that I haven't
> read them properly is extremely rude of you. I consider my gentle
> reproach quite restrained.
On the contrary by asserting that my argument was not worthy of
response you were denigrating my comments, moreover by declining
to respond (as is your right, your time is your own) but never less
asserting that, were you willing to be uncivil, you could rebut
them you eliminated the possibility that I could rebut your rebuttal.
> Perhaps you should look
> up 'civil' in the dictionary. I don't think it means what you think it means.
civil -
8. In that social condition which accompanies and is involved
in citizenship or life in communities; not barbarous; civilized;
advanced in the arts of life
9. Educated; well bred; refined; polished, 'polite'
the OED.
By claiming that an argument you were not going to deign to make
would rebut my argument you suggested that my argument, and by
extension me, was not worthy of your response. I found this behavior
to be the antithesis of 'polite'.
> >You constantly project the patronizing attitude that you know Traveller better
> >than others.
>
> While I'm sorry to hear that I come across as patronizing and willing to try to
> remedy that, I don't think being patronizing is incompatible with being civil.
I disagree. This is not some University of Traveller in which you
have a Doctoral Degree in Traveller canon and can therefore claim
a position of authority from which to look down on others. Nor is
this some Feudal Nobility in which Sir Ranke-Madsen rightfully
claims superiority. Patronizing implies a patronage relationship,
when no such relationship exists it is _very_ uncivil, especially
to many Americans.
> >MT canon clearly establishes that the Imperial Navy did use it's weapons on
> >its people. It establishes that at least billions of people died as a result.
>
> Yes, but it doesn't say that they did this because those planets refused to
> accept Imperial credits. And unless that was what you were implying, the whole
> argument makes no sense at all in connection with this discussion.
Let me try to connect it. The Rebellion happened because Dulinor
would not accept Strephon's authority (yes that's a bit simplified).
Therefore the rebellion was about the extent of imperial power.
I am asserting that canon (the Warrant of Restoration) gives the
Imperium the authority (supremacy clause) to do what they feel is
necessary. Canon (library data and numerous adventures) also establishes
that the Imperial government sometimes uses that authority. It also
establishes that currency problems caused the fall of the Rule of
man (library data). It also establishes (Milieu 0 Campaign) that
when the Third Imperium was put together Cleon wanted to avoid
the problems of the First and Second Empires.
Therefore it seems to me that the Imperium would not let people
not take Imperial Credits. It also seemed to me (and is canon)
that when people do things the Imperial government does not like
they sometimes kill them. Therefore not accepting Imperial credits
is one of the things on the list that of things the Imperium might
kill people for. I am suggesting that this power was probably used
on at least one occasion during the Rebellion.
> Look, let's start again. It's obvious that i've failed to explain myself
> adequately. Let me try a different tack.
>
> I'm going to promise you a beer. I mean that sincerely. Show up on my doorstep
> and I'll take you out and buy you a beer. Now, doesn't that quench your thirst
> remarkably? I didn't think it would. You've just recieved an electronic
>transfer of funds, an electronic IOU:
>
> - ----------------------
> | |
> | IOU one beer. |
> | |
> | Hans Rancke |
> |_____________________|
>
> Now, you can print that out and frame it, but unless you actually come over to
> Denmark and collect, you're not one bit better off than before.
I don't have to come to Denmark, all I have to do is sell it
on EBay to someone who is already in Denmark or is already planning
to go to Denmark. One beer is typically worth more than enough
stamps to mail a piece of paper the size of the above IOU to
most locations.
> And I'm not a
> bit worse off. I've got a beer in my larder (left behind by a visitor), and
> unless you show up one day to collect it, I'm going to keep on having that beer
> in my larder.
The cost of keeping that beer in your larder is that you can't sell
or give it to someone else. Similarly if the government of Regina
pays their taxes they can't then go spend those same credits on
something else. Opportunity cost is real is all I'm saying.
> In the same way, a planet can send a message to the subsector
> duke that they owe him 10 billion credits, but unless he shows
> up to collect ships or supplies to the tune of 10 billion credits,
> the planet is not one decicred poorer.
1) If they merely say that they owe him the ten billion credits than
no they are not one decicred poorer. If _however_ they actually
set the ten billion credits aside than they can't use them to
buy anything else with. That's all I'm saying.
2) He can sell their IOU to someone else who can then stop
buy and get the stuff. Similarly I could sell your IOU one
beer on EBay. The costs of communication and transport in
the Traveller universe are a bit different than on Earth
today. If you wanted to claim that an IOU one beer on Regina
would be effectively worthless on the Solomani Rim I'd be inclined
to agree, but an IOU ten billion credits is worth the cost
of transport.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:23:45 -0000
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Dogs.
Ha! All my cats need to do is delicately insert tooth and claw into my foot
and I know *exactly* what they want - be it food, letting out or just more
space on the bed.
If I am really lucky, they may sing to me...
Jeff.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:55:25 -0000
From: "Michael R. Blair" <michael@carrickfergus.schoolzone.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Breeds of Vargr & Human Selectivity (or the lack thereof)
I toyed around with the presence on a frontier world of a 'lost' varient of
Vargr - bigger and dumber. Something strange and scarey in the wilderness
beyond the settlement.
Of course isolation and small gene pool could probably account for this in a
few millenia, we don't need the ancients for everything.
Otherwise I got the impression that vargr were quite homogeneus, different
pelt colours and more cultures than you could count (oops, there goes
another one) but to use an old racist sterotype maybe all vargr look the
same to us? Though I doubt it - the human experience of dogs again.
As to interbreeding between humanoid subraces, humans seemingly will attempt
to couple with anything vaguely humanoid and warm - the degree of
selectivity depending on desperation so at somepoint some lonely band of
hunters has probably gang raped just about every hominid species they came
in contact with. A cynical view of humanity but probably realistic.
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:05:38 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: RE: Humans, Sapiens et al
Patrik Holmstrom wrote :-
> However that period was ended quite abruptly by the long night not
> many years after the Nth interstellar war (and the spreading of
> Solomani humans). The situation would be a lot worse with TL0-6
> medicine, right?
Jenner vaccinated against smallpox at ~TTL 3.
The pathophysiology of haemolytic disease of the newborn was figured out in
the ~TTL 5-6 period.
So local technology may be capable of dealing with the problem, but there
are bigger worries (lack of sanitation, for example) at the TTL range you've
posted.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:13:12 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Intro
Glenn Goffin wrote:
> From: Jeff Hopper <jeff37923@yahoo.com>
> > Does anyone know of a set of rules governing
> > radiation exposure and its damaging effects for CT?
> > I've been able to find a kludge for TNE based on
> > Twilight:2000, but that is all. If anyone knows of
> > any, please let me know.
>
> DGP wrote some rules for this in Traveller's Digest or
> Megatraveller Journal, but I think they apply to MT.
>
> This would be a good newbie essay.
It was in Digest 15, and it was for MT. However, as MT is an
evolution on CT[1] (unlike TNE which is a completely different
ruleset) it should be fairly straight forward to translate back
into CT terms.
[1] = 90% of the radiation rules just require understanding DGP's
task system which was originally developed as an add-on to
CT.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:23:34 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Astrogation design
Mark Preston wrote:
> Does your software need a link from sector<-->subsector<-->system
> then Stalin? I've not included that in the XML for data sharing,
> but will if it will be needed.
My program is a 'drill-down viewer' (much as Galactic is) so I do
need to have a sector --> subsector --> system linkage. The way
I set up my data structures a reverse link was possible, but so
far I don't see a need for a reverse link.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:54 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Wealth
In-Reply-To: <3AA74F2F.A9A865D7@gci.net>
Greetings Peter and the rest of you dear people.
On payment, UK law states that: -
1. By offering to sell, and posting prices for, an item, there is an
implicit contract the terms of which are met by
2. You offering ('tendering' is the technical term) payment of at least
the value asked for the item using coin of the realm - which is called
'legal tender' erm, because it is the thing you legally are supposed to
tender.
If the shopkeeper refuses to take 'legal tender' in exchange for goods he
has on sale, he is in breach of the law. Unless he says, when you come in,
that he is closed, or doesn't want to sell to YOU.
They are allowed to set terms on other forms of payment: cheques,
credit/debit cards, charge cards, etc. About the only thing with real hard
cash is that they can refuse to accept a really massive pile of small
coins (e.g. paying a hundred pounds in two-pence coins!).
If the same held good in the 3I, that the Imperial Credit is 'legal
tender', then the barman would have to accept it unless he decided to
ban you from the premises (wise move with most TRAVELLER parties I've
refereed!).
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:54 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Cordite loops
In-Reply-To: <B6CC4326.87A2%cheryl@travellercentral.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
Getting hold of det-cord may be easy in the US, at least in some states.
Not so easy in the UK. Probably could if I had to, but it might not be
strictly legal :-)
Another thing to play with when I come visit!
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
(Pining for things that go bang)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:27:09 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: [still way off topic] License to Program
Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> Peter Trevor wrote:
> > what's a "pointer"?
>
> Assuming you're being serious,
<snip>
My question was serious, but my tone was not (I was trying to
counterpoint your suggestion that a good understanding of
pointers would benefit programmers of higher-level languages by
pointing out that I have been a programmer in a commercial
environment for some time without explicitly using pointers).
> There. You have now learned about pointers "on the street". Now
> you can educate me. What language/languages have you been using?
My core skill is good ol' fashioned COBOL. Not a particularly
sexy language, I admit, and almost useless for graphics and GUIs.
But still in widespread use, still being used for new development
of bespoke applications. I'm also a Powerhouse programmer (a 4GL
with the same old fashioned 80x23 character display).
> How do those languages best allow you to write a single subroutine
> to manipulate similarly-structured records which come from different
> sources?
In COBOL you'd code it like this ...
CALL "SUBR1" USING SOURCE1_RECORD
CALL "SUBR1" USING SOURCE2_RECORD
Then in the linkage section of SUBR1 you define the common record
structure which maps SUBR1's references onto the dataspace. You
can specify if each parameter is by reference or by value, but it
defaults to by reference. You don't need to define your
pointers, that is all handled for you behind the scenes.
Powerhouse dosen't really have the concept of subroutines.
Commercially I've used ...
Machines: DEC Alpha, DEC VAX-11, DEC PDP-11, IBM3090, MDISL
Sequoia M9420 & M9430
O/S: Open/VMS, VMS, Unix, TSO, RT-11, PICK
File Systems: RMS, RDB (now Oracle) with RDO and SQL
4GL: Powerhouse, ALL (Pro-IV variant)
3GL: COBOL, DCL, Data/BASIC, RatFor, PROC
... and at home: PC and CBM-8032 stuff (everything from
programming in GW-BASIC, writing HTML without a WYSISWG editor,
setting up a home LAN, and rebuilding my PC, all self tought.
Now teaching myself VB.
(I did do a courses in Pascal and Macro-11 back in 1984, and I've
just remembered Pascal used pointers. But I havn't used it since
then, so I forgot.)
Okay, so now you know the background I'm coming from (except to
add that in most commercial environments I've been in the
"install it now, fix it later" mentality is unfortunately the
norm ... which is why I don't see the "VB encourages bad code"
issue as very significant).
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 12:16:40 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: Wealth
Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> writes:
>game. The question I am asking is "Suppose that the players go
>into the only bar on a low population planet within the Imperium
>and order a drink. The bartender requires payment in advance. For
>some strange and illogical reason of his own he will not take Imperial
>credits as payment, despite the fact that he could spend them easily.
>Can the characters get Imperial law enforcement agents to make
>the bartender take their credits or are they S.O.L.?"
>
My Cr0.02: the Imperium would normally require that a world accept
the CrImp as legal tender for off-world trade, as one of the
conditions of membership of the Imperium.
The currency that the world uses in its own internal economy is a
matter for local sovereignity.
Some worlds may choose to use the CrImp as their own legal tender - in
which case the bartender would be breaking planetary (not Imperial)
law by not accepting your money.
Some would allow it to be freely converted into and out of the local
currency - which means that the bartender *might* accept the money,
depending on his calculation of what it was worth - considering
exchange rates, the commission charged by the bank to convert it into
his own currency, and whether he can be bothered with the time and
hassle getting it converted.
On other worlds, it might be illegal for private citizens to hold
CrImps - these are reserved for government use. Only those people or
organisations specifically licenced to deal with off-worlders would be
permitted a supply of CrImps, and they would be carefully accounted
for. (Think strict customs inspections, currency declarations, etc
whenever you try and cross the starport extrality line). So in this
situation, the bartender would be commiting a crime if he took your
money.
So no, private citizens do not have to accept CrImps under Imperial
law. If it was the planetary government _itself_ that was refusing to
accept CrImps in settlement of a debt, or to allow offworlders to
convert CrImps into its own local currency, *then* the Imperium might
take interest - since the world would be in breach of its treaty of
membership of the Imperium. The local Duke could consider that to be
rebellion, so in that case yes, the Imperial Navy and Marines might
turn up in orbit over the planet...
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 08:15:06 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
> <<...i.e. a kind of uplifted coyote or wolf.>>
>
> This brings up the question: Do Vargr consider Wile E. Coyote to be
> a comic genius or a racist stereotype?
Tragic hero.
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:42:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise
John Lambert writes:
>We've discussed species separating into unique subspecies which develop
>unique differences. Does the inverse occur, where two unique, but
>interfertile subspecies interbreed and merge to the point one is completely
>absorbed into the other? There would be some additional genetic diversity
>introduced into the remaining population, but maybe not that pronounced.
>Could that be what happened to Neanderthal?
This is, in fact, one of the hypotheses that is being considered.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:46:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
DaveShayne writes:
>The two species talents complement each other nicely. The dogs keener
>senses and the humans greater intelect. Note that Vargr have the higher
>intellect as well as the improved senses and so they can be their own best
>friends.
Dogs certainly have a more sensitive sense of smell, and can hear
higher frequency sounds than humans, but don't sell us short.
Humans have excellent vision, probably better than that of dogs
(though this is difficult to determine).
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:49:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Intro
Jeff Hopper writes:
> Hello.
>My name is Jeff Hopper, a Traveller player who
>started back in 1983 with CT and have followed it
>through to the present. I'm an ex-Navy nuke who is
>living in Tennessee building hazardous duty robots for
>a living. I just wanted to stop lurking around this
>site and say "Howdy!" to ya'all.
<snipped>
Howdy!
>Does anyone know of a set of rules governing
>radiation exposure and its damaging effects for CT?
>I've been able to find a kludge for TNE based on
>Twilight:2000, but that is all. If anyone knows of
>any, please let me know.
I believe that Dr. O'Connor, the TML medico,
has developded something like this.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:54:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise
Charles H writes:
>>Total layman's question: are the different breeds of dog, like
>>chihuahuas, great danes, etc, considered to be subspecies or "races"?
>The different breeds of dogs are all the same species (Canis
>familiaris), some call them seperate sub-species.
>ObTrav: Alien Modules 6 calls them seperate sub-species.
>Dogs, wolves (Canis lupis), and coyotes (Canis latrans) are
>interfertile, and thus may be misclassified as seperate species.
Just to be fair to the taxonomists, even if they are
interfertile, and even if that applies to all populations
and is complete (no reduction in viability of offspring),
considering them different species is not necessarily
"misclassifying" them. Although we may accept the
"biological species concept" for use with humaniti in
Traveller, it is not the universal definition in the Real
World (tm).
Peez
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3782
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3783
Date: | 3/8/01 12:32:21 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Thursday, March 8 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3783
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
Re: Wealth
Re : Radiation rules (was : Intro)
Re: Wealth
Re: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
Imperial and local currency
Re: Wealth
Re: Imperial and local currency
RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Latin in the Far Future (well, maybe in 2300)
Re: FFS2 design characteristics
RE: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
Cutter Books
Re: Wealth
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 10:08:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
John Snead writes:
<snipped>
>The brain of a
>homo erectus was about 0.75% the size of a modern humans.
A typo, I presume. 0.75% of 1400 ml (the approximate
mean for modern humans) is 10.5 ml. :)
The figure that I am familiar with is 1000 ml for H.
erectus from about 1,000,000 years ago (near 75%).
>This doesn't mean they were dumber, since among humans brain
>size certainly doesn't correlate well with intelligence. However,
>they might well be honestly less capable of abstract thought and
>complex reasoning (maybe rolling their INT score on 1D6+1or even
>1D3+1).
<snipped>
Very important point. Women have (on average) smaller
brains than men, but there is no reason to think that one
sex is more intelligent than the other (though there may
well be average differences in certain aspects of
"intelligence", with each sex approaching problems
differently). On a broader scale, it seams pretty obvious
that among species there is some relationship between
brain size and intelligence (though we cannot even
define intelligence very well, so we must be careful
here).
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:09:24 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Wealth
On 8 Mar 2001, at 1:56, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> A distinction without any meaning. The point is still that the Imperium has no
> joy whatsoever of owning a crate of Crimp notes unless they plan to use them to
> buy goods (or services).
Not to interrupt a serious debate, but...
"Crimp notes" - I like that. Sounds like good slang (though I first
thought of a crimping tool and then 'cliff notes' before my mind
identified the term. :) Has it been around long or did you just come
up with it?
> A lot of people has the same trouble you have distinguishing between the wealth
> and the markers. It's an illusion that works as long as everybody believes in
> it. But ask anyone who's found a fortune in Confederate money how rich they are.
Or those old Rule of Man commemorative coins... :)
I'm no economics expert so please forgive what may be elementary
questions. What is the definition of wealth? Is it physical goods?
Land (productive land = i.e. has the ability to produce goods and
services)? Stockpiles of valuables? Or is wealth anything that has
'value' - meaning someone somewhere does or would want to exchange
something to obtain it?
(Does the 3I have a "Fort Knox" equivalent?)
Money started as minted valuable metals, valuable in and of
themselves, progressed to paper currency (the promisory note - a
promise to give the bearer something valuable for it), to credits
(electronic tally sheets of accounts), IIRC. I remember the CT
adventure with 'soggy Crimp bills' and didn't like the idea that paper
money existed 3500 years from now - though now I can say I certainly
wouldn't want a totally electronic economy, but that gets into issues
of privacy, etc., for another thread. I was wondering if there's canon
stating whether or not the Imperial credit is tied to any kind of 'gold
standard'?
I don't know the pros and cons such a system but I just had the idea:
what if Crimps had embedded a tiny amount of platinum or something -
then perhaps they have value in and of themselves and they wouldn't
necessarily have to be used in offworld trade to have worth. But, it's
just the silly idea of a tired morning mind that needs caffeine...
> You do realise that you have no evidence to support your CLAIM that the Imperium
> is willing to kill people who won't accept Imperial credits.
As (Hans?) mentioned, I could see force being threatened during the
last years of the 2I as it falls apart after the one major bank fails
to honor (an Imperial?) draft note or something to that effect.
I could also see the threat of force being used in the first wild and
wooly years of the 3I as it's expanding and convincing worlds to join
or stay joined, but in the last 500+ years I wouldn't think it likely.
Wouldn't most planets be pretty well settled into the trade
arrangements? (Though perhaps there are interesting singletons or
isolated pockets where the situation is different but that just makes
for adventurous areas.)
> >Even people who are willing to risk being killed will accept the credit
> >because they know that others will accept it or risk being killed.
>
> People accept Imperial credits because they can buy something for them, not
> because they are afraid not to. And the reason they can buy stuff with Crimps is
> that stuff is, indeed, traded between planets. If that wasn't the case, they
> wouldn't be able to buy stuff with their Crimp.
On those worlds with a strong Imperial culture, wouldn't the local
population use Imperial credits to transact local business? Sure they
could have local currency (reflecting the local distribution of
wealth?) and those with strong local cultures probably do, but I think
it would make things easier if the world is strongly Imperial and/or
does a lot of interstellar trade.
Rob D.
'Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy.'
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 02:21:16 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Radiation rules (was : Intro)
Jeff Hopper wrote :-
>Does anyone know of a set of rules governing
>radiation exposure and its damaging effects for CT?
>I've been able to find a kludge for TNE based on
>Twilight:2000, but that is all. If anyone knows of
>any, please let me know.
I am not sure what approach CT takes to resolve tasks.
There are a set of medical rules which can be adapted to any of the other
Trav task systems at Freelance Traveller :-
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/features/rules/index.htm
It covers most injurious agents, not just radiation.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 19:01:23 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Wealth
On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Rob Davenport wrote:
> of privacy, etc., for another thread. I was wondering if there's canon
> stating whether or not the Imperial credit is tied to any kind of 'gold
> standard'?
The only place I remember reading where Imperial Credit is explained is
Library Data. MT version does not say anything about this.
I have never thought much about this, IMTU IC is just legal tender and one
can use it everywhere inside the Imperial borders. This is probably just
expected, as I am a techology student, not economy...
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 09:06:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Frank G. Pitt writes:
> Trevor, Peter wrote:
>
> > I've been a professional programmer since 1987, worked for the
> > construction industry, automotive, telecoms, several merchant
> > banks, software houses, and multinationals. My question is this:
> > what's a "pointer"?
>
> A block of memory, ontaining the memory address of some other block of
> memory.
Hm...I'd call a pointer 'a variable containing the address of a block of
memory'. Several languages use pointer-like objects without calling them
pointers, however -- for example, a 'new X' call in an object-oriented
language returns what is functionally a pointer.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:40:35 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote:
> DaveShayne writes:
> >The two species talents complement each other nicely. The dogs keener
> >senses and the humans greater intelect. Note that Vargr have the
> >higher intellect as well as the improved senses and so they can be
> >their own best friends.
>
> Dogs certainly have a more sensitive sense of smell, and can
> hear higher frequency sounds than humans, but don't sell us
> short. Humans have excellent vision, probably better than that
> of dogs (though this is difficult to determine).
Humans also have one of the best senses of touch in the entire
animal kingdom, certainly far better than a dog's (since they lack
the vast amount of brain space devoted to their paws that we have
devoted to our hands).
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:57:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Imperial and local currency
This is an interesting discussion, and I wish I had been paying closer
attention earlier. That won't stop me from commenting, of course.
What are the economic consequences to the Imperium of member states using
their own currencies internally? I like the concept of a member state
having the choice of using its own currency, which is part of its own
internal autonomy. Would that harm the economy of the Imperium in any
way?
- --Glenn
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Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:04:51 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Wealth
William Lane writes:
>-----------------------
>| |
>| IOU one beer. |
>| |
>| Hans Rancke |
>|_____________________|
>
>
>Now i just have to figure out how to get to Denmark! WOOT! im one beer
>richer 8P
Well, if you were Peter, you would be one beer richer IF you could get to
Denmark. The point I was trying to make was that unless he can get to Denmark
even Peter is not, actually, a beer richer, even though I own him one.
And William Lane continued:
>DOH im missing the whole point of this this discussion. If i can find
>someone who is going to Denmark i can barter with them to accept my Beer at
>face value. and there by get them to buy me a beer here. then they can take
>the Beer Buck(tm) to denmark and cash in. WOOT!
Well, if I had authorized Peter to make it transferrable and you got his from
him, then, yes, you could do as you say. In fact, I forgot that little detail,
but let me remedy that. I will authorize Peter to transfer his Beer Buck (just
do it in handwriting, Peter).
>Anyone going to denmark any time soon?
>
>I place total faith ion the face value of my Beer Buck(tm) 8P
Good for you. But Peter is only going to be able to cash in his Beer Buck if he
can find someone who is not only going to Denmark, but is also confident that
I'm going to keep my word (and, incidentally, knows where I live ;-).
And Kelly St.Clair asks:
>Alternatively, Mr. Newman can trade that IOU to someone else (for whatever
>item, service, or other thing of value they agree upon) who thinks he might
>be able to trade it to someone else etc, etc, until it winds up in the
>hands of someone living in or visiting your town. And as the IOU is for
>"bearer", they can turn up on your doorstep and ask for that beer.
>
>This is how currency works. :) And that about exhausts MY knowledge of the
>black art known as "economics".
>
>(Incidentally, Hans, aren't you worried that Peter might start printing out
>hundreds, even thousands of copies of that IOU - minting his own
>Hans-braus, basically? If enough holders try to negotiate their currency
>at once, you could soon find yourself out of specie.)
Actually, no. First of all, the IOU is not to bearer. I specifically promised
_Peter_ a beer. Still, as I said above, I'll allow him to transfer it to another
just to make it a little more like money. But I didn't authorize him to start
minting Beer Bucks. Secondly, I always have the option of defaulting, don't I?
As I said above, that Beer Buck isn't going to do Peter any good unless he can
find someone who trusts that I will redeem it. It's not a beer, it's merely a
promise of one. Just as treasury notes are not wealth, they are merely promises.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 14:14:44 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial and local currency
>What are the economic consequences to the Imperium of member states using
>their own currencies internally? Would that harm the economy of the
>Imperium in any way?
If anything, it would help. If a currency is used over a region so large
that the economy isn't even, then it's very difficult to control economic
growth. For example, Region A is going like gangbusters and you want to cool
it off to prevent inflation, but Region B is on the verge of recession and
you want to pump things up. With different currencies in each region, you
can fiddle with the money supply of each. With a single currency across
both, you lose this lever.
An empire more than a two years across is almost certainly too big for a
single currency to be the best solution.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:19:27 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:46:11 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
> Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
<snip>
> Dogs certainly have a more sensitive sense of smell, and can hear
> higher frequency sounds than humans, but don't sell us short.
> Humans have excellent vision, probably better than that of dogs
> (though this is difficult to determine).
I think it's probably 6 of one half a dozen of the other. As I recall dogs
see
into the infra-red spectrum and have a generally better visual accuity
resulting in better night vision. (not sure of that last one) Our daytime
vision
is probably superior (we can see colors at any rate) again our talents
(as species) appear quite complementary.
The cat/human symbiosis is a little more tenuous but we get along quite
well with them also. While cats aren't as amenable to training as dogs they
do quite well hunting the smaller vermin and the purr thing is a wonderfull
stress reducer.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:58:47 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
> Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:53:43 +1100
> From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
> Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
>
> This would imply that the Vargr *are* a race superior to humaniti.
> Better keep this wild theory under wraps....
"Grrrrrrf! Who says we aren't?" - Rosco (real name unkown) lead
howler of near-c-rocks.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:02:41 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:35:55 -0600
> From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
<snip>
> I'm Mawg.
> Half-man, half-dog.
> I'm my own best friend.
> John Candy as Mawg
> Space Balls
That's the trouble with most of the really good one liners.
Somebody has probably already used it.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:24:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>DaveShayne writes:
>>The two species talents complement each other nicely. The dogs keener
>>senses and the humans greater intelect. Note that Vargr have the higher
>>intellect as well as the improved senses and so they can be their own
>>best friends.
>
> Dogs certainly have a more sensitive sense of smell, and can hear
> higher frequency sounds than humans, but don't sell us short.
> Humans have excellent vision, probably better than that of dogs
> (though this is difficult to determine).
I'm not even convinced that humans have the greater intellect, although we
appear to be much better at symbolic analysis. This leads us to the trap
of measuring intellect by measuring the ability to perform symbolic
analysis. Dogs are admittedly not very good at symbolic analysis; you can
barely teach them to do arithmetic, let alone read, write, or do
mathematics.
Nevertheless, they know a lot about you, about how the world works, how to
get what they need, and how to feel good and balanced just about all the
time. If you spend some time doing pack activities with a dog (or better
a couple of dogs), and stay open to the dog experience, you will learn a
lot.
The best activities, in my opinion, are patrolling the territory (not just
walking and waiting for the dog to poop, but perceiving what has changed
and what has not since you were here last, even if you cannot experience
the subtlety of odors that the dog can), hunting and exploring (not just
walking while the dog runs around, but staying quiet, breathing well,
keeping all of your senses open to danger and opportunity), and
stalking/observing (the internal energy -- or ki -- of us monkeyboys and
- -girls is in constant, rapid, even erratic, motion, making it hard for us
to sit still; dogs can lie in wait, nearly motionless, just observing, for
longer than even a ninja can take; try lying down beside the observing dog
and letting all of your senses open up while you clear all of the dialogue
- -- all of which consists entirely of symbols -- out of your mind).
The Vargr may well have the best of both capabilities: ki that flows in
slow waves, allowing great concentration, and highly developed talent at
symbolic analysis. The Ancients probably developed the Vargr not to be
guards and assistants, but to be thinkers, who could focus for long
periods on a problem and who could bring all of their capabilities to
bear. It is no surprise that the Vargr invented the jump drive on their
own. They just had to think about how to get to the stars.
- --Glenn
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:31:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
Dogs are red-green colorblind, menaing they can see some colors.
- --- DaveShayne <daveshayne@email.msn.com> wrote:
> > Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 09:46:11 -0400 (EDT)
> > From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
> > Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
>
> <snip>
>
> > Dogs certainly have a more sensitive sense of smell, and
> can hear
> > higher frequency sounds than humans, but don't sell us
> short.
> > Humans have excellent vision, probably better than that of
> dogs
> > (though this is difficult to determine).
>
> I think it's probably 6 of one half a dozen of the other. As I recall
> dogs
> see
> into the infra-red spectrum and have a generally better visual
> accuity
> resulting in better night vision. (not sure of that last one) Our
> daytime
> vision
> is probably superior (we can see colors at any rate) again our
> talents
> (as species) appear quite complementary.
>
> The cat/human symbiosis is a little more tenuous but we get along
> quite
> well with them also. While cats aren't as amenable to training as
> dogs they
> do quite well hunting the smaller vermin and the purr thing is a
> wonderfull
> stress reducer.
>
> David Shayne
>
>
>
=====
Gerry Harris
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:36:48 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
On Thursday, March 08, 2001 11:31 AM
Gerry Harris,
> Dogs are red-green colorblind, menaing they can see some colors.
As are something like 20%-30% of Caucasian males, or maybe it's blue-green
colour blind. I'll have to go check my visual design reference books.
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Minion of SheChemist and GothBunny
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
===========================
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite
you. That is the principal difference between a dog and a man." -Mark Twain
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:43:38 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Latin in the Far Future (well, maybe in 2300)
I have just received an email newsletter from Morrison & Foerster, a local
law firm, that begins as follows:
>The European Union is on the verge of adopting a Regulation[1] that would
>for the first time establish a true pan-European company form, >the
“Societas Europeae” (or “SE” for short), a European public limited
>liability company.
What is interesting to me (and, I hope, to you) is that the European Union
has chosen to use Latin for the name of this new concept. There is
presently a great deal of interest in classical Latin in Europe. Now that
a few thousand years have passed, the language of a brutal occupying power
is perceived as a way to unify and empower, rather than oppress. (Church
Latin is quite different from classical Latin, but may also be a factor in
Europe's fascination with the language. It is only some 40 years since
the Catholic Church stopped using Latin in its services. Interestingly,
the Catholic Church first flourished in areas occupied by Romans.)
- --Glenn
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 10:44:22 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: FFS2 design characteristics
"Patrik Holmström" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com> wrote
> The most expensive vessel I have seen to date however is the Dimashq 900kdt
> "Recurrent Glory" (1498 GCr)
> Sidenote: It's impossible to play a game of TCS with any of the above
> designs. :)
Well don't just stand there, go design some rules for Quadrillion
Credit Squadron. :)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:55:06
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
I found an interesting web page describing the evolution of canines and
their chromosome differences. I think that this difference in the
chromosomes between dogs, wolves, foxes, etc. is the comment I was trying to
remember from the Discovery(?) show on the spread of canines across the
globe.
http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wayne2.htm
John
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:59:52 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Cutter Books
I am reliably informed that these were drop-shipped to the distribution
chain, and should be arriving at your US FLGS any time between this weekend
and next weekend. We get ours (for W23) Monday.
Go look at the cool Jesse art on the cover and inside.
<fnord>
Jesse: Are you sure the hypno-coding was properly imbedded in the dot
screens this time? Last time, the "Buy Me NOW!" subliminal embed was so
subtle as to be only 23% effective, and we don't want that happening again.
</fnord>
I've been trying to get this book published for 10 years, and finally did it.
Loren Wiseman
Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society http://jtas.sjgames.com/
SJ Games
lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
(512) 447-7866 VOX
(512) 447-1144 FAX
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:28:49 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Wealth
Peter Newman writes:
>Let me try to make myself clear. Traveller is a role playing game. The
>question I am asking is "Suppose that the players go into the only bar on a
>low population planet within the Imperium and order a drink. The bartender
>requires payment in advance. For some strange and illogical reason of his
>own he will not take Imperial credits as payment, despite the fact that he
>could spend them easily. Can the characters get Imperial law enforcement
>agents to make the bartender take their credits or are they S.O.L.?"
Put in that form I would say emphatically no. They may be able to get the local
law to do something about it, but that would entirely depend on local laws about
legal tender and offers and deals.
>The question I am asking is not if Imperial credits are generally accepted,
>the question I am asking is "Must Imperial credits, as a matter of law, be
>accepted?" I am simply stating that my reading of canon about the fall of
>the Second Imperium and T4 canon about the formation of the Third Imperium
>make me believe that the Third Imperium seems like the sort of place that
>would require its people to take Imperial credits. Your mileage may vary.
Let's leave it at that, then.
>...the fact that the one of the most expensive things the Imperium ever buys
>(capital ships) can move themselves for way less (per parsec/ton) than other
>goods means that it does not (on average) cost the Imperium as much to move
>stuff as it would if they shipped it all as freight. This may make a big
>monetary difference.
So it does, but I still don't see the relevance to this discussion.
>...What I'm saying is say that the government of Regina has a sack full of
>money.
What kind of money and where did they get it in the first place?
>They could either use this money to go buy stuff they want _or_ they could
>use that money to pay their taxes.
There are two different situations that you have to distinguish between:
1) If it's Crimps that they've recieved for selling goods to offworld merchants,
then you're right. They can either buy other stuff or pay their taxes. But in
that case they have _already_ paid for those tokens (the Crimps) in real wealth
(the goods they delivered in exchange for the Crimps). And if they use them to
pay their taxes and the subsector duke wants to get some ships from that planet,
he has to give those Crimp notes back in order to get the ships. In which case
the planet delivered another set of goods (the ships) and got their promisory
notes back, which means the planet can spend them on buying offworld goods to
the value of the ships after all.
2) Now, if they haven't sold any goods, they don't have any Crimps to pay their
taxes with (and they wouldn't have had them to buy offworld goods with either).
In that case they have to promise the subsector duke to pay their taxes in the
form of a promisory note: "IOU Umpteen billion Crimps." Now, when the duke comes
to get his ships, the planet deliver a bunch of real wealth (the ships) and
either recieve a bunch of Crimps which they immidiately use to pay off the IOU
or the duke tears up the IOU. The effect is exactly the same.
>When they chose to pay their taxes they incur the opportunity cost of not
>being able to spend that money on other stuff.
Yep, but they achieve the gain of having paid their taxes and not owing the duke
anything. If the duke wants ships, he'll have to pay for them now. Once again:
the actual notes (or electronic notations) are merely ways to keep score.
>>I'm claiming that unless the subsector duke actually shows up and
>>demands goods for those credits then the planet isn't poorer by one jot. That
>>the goods can move by themselves is completely irrelevant to that argument.
>
>The planet is poorer because if they had not given the credits to
>the Imperium they could have blown it all on something else.
That's a function of taxes, not of money.
>While I don't want to turn this into ECON 101 I will simply note
>that most modern economists believe that money has several uses.
>I was asserting that the use of money in this case was an a
>medium of exchange.
As a means of keeping score, you mean?
>>You do realise that you have no evidence to support your CLAIM that the
>>Imperium is willing to kill people who won't accept Imperial credits.
>
>If you mean a direct quote saying so than no I don't. However canon (The
>Warrant of Restoration) establishes that trade is very important to the
>Imperium and that the Imperium reserves the right to do what it wants.
>Therefore I am asserting that canon supports my claim that they have the
>power and the right to kill people who do not accept Imperial credits.
They sure have the power and they may claim the right. But they definitely don't
have the need, because the existing situation does not encourage people to
refuse Imperial credits. Because trade DO take place and Crimps ARE accepted. So
as I said, the whole question is moot.
>>To imply that the MT books support your contentions and that
>>the only reason I'm arguing against them must be that I haven't
>>read them properly is extremely rude of you. I consider my gentle
>>reproach quite restrained.
>
>On the contrary by asserting that my argument was not worthy of
>response you were denigrating my comments, moreover by declining
>to respond (as is your right, your time is your own) but never less
>asserting that, were you willing to be uncivil, you could rebut
>them you eliminated the possibility that I could rebut your rebuttal.
Well, I apologize for being obtuse. What I meant to imply was that the response
your comment really deserved would have been inflammatory and that I preferred
not to excalate this into a flame fest.
>>Perhaps you should look
>>up 'civil' in the dictionary. I don't think it means what you think it means.
>
>civil -
>
>8. In that social condition which accompanies and is involved
>in citizenship or life in communities; not barbarous; civilized;
>advanced in the arts of life
>
>9. Educated; well bred; refined; polished, 'polite'
>
>the OED.
>
>By claiming that an argument you were not going to deign to make
>would rebut my argument you suggested that my argument, and by
>extension me, was not worthy of your response.
as I explained above, I didn't mean to imply that. I meant that the response
that corresponded in rudeness to yours would have been inflammatory.
>I found this behavior to be the antithesis of 'polite'.
So much for using dictionaries to solve these problems. According to
Merriam-Webster you can be civil without being polite.
"2 a : CIVILIZED <civil society> b : adequate in courtesy and politeness :
MANNERLY
synonyms CIVIL, POLITE, COURTEOUS,
CHIVALROUS mean observant of the forms required by good
breeding. CIVIL often suggests little more than the avoidance of
overt rudeness <owed the questioner a civil reply>. POLITE
commonly implies polish of speech and manners and sometimes
suggests an absence of cordiality <if you can't be pleasant, at
least be polite>. COURTEOUS implies more actively considerate
or dignified politeness <clerks who were unfailingly courteous to
customers>."
Merriam-Webster online dictionary (http://www.m-w.com/).
>>While I'm sorry to hear that I come across as patronizing and willing to try to
>>remedy that, I don't think being patronizing is incompatible with being civil.
>
>I disagree. This is not some University of Traveller in which you
>have a Doctoral Degree in Traveller canon and can therefore claim
>a position of authority from which to look down on others.
Nor am I consious of ever having done so. Nor is the current discussion about
anything related to the Traveller canon except indirectly. It's a discussion
about the nature of money and wealth and whether or not there is a difference.
>Nor is this some Feudal Nobility in which Sir Ranke-Madsen rightfully
>claims superiority. Patronizing implies a patronage relationship,
That's one of the two meanings of the word. The one not usually meant nowadays.
The other one is:
"2 : to adopt an air of condescension toward : treat haughtily or coolly."
And 'condescending' means:
"1 : voluntary descent from one's rank or dignity in relations with an inferior"
Now, since I don't consider you an inferior, I am unable to condescend to you.
(Hmmm. As far as I can see, being patronizing and being polite are not mutuall
>Let me try to connect it. The Rebellion happened because Dulinor
>would not accept Strephon's authority (yes that's a bit simplified).
>Therefore the rebellion was about the extent of imperial power.
>I am asserting that canon (the Warrant of Restoration) gives the
>Imperium the authority (supremacy clause) to do what they feel is
>necessary.
What it doesn't say anywhere is that the Imperium would feel the need to enforce
the acceptance of Imperial credits at gunpoint. As I've repeatedly stated,
Crimps ARE accepted as legal tender. I just don't believe it is for the reason
you propose.
>>You've just recieved an electronic transfer of funds, an electronic IOU:
>>
>>[...]
>>
>>Now, you can print that out and frame it, but unless you actually come over to
>>Denmark and collect, you're not one bit better off than before.
>
>I don't have to come to Denmark, all I have to do is sell it on EBay to
>someone who is already in Denmark or is already planning to go to Denmark.
If I made the promise transferrable (as I've done in another post) and if you
can find someone who will trust me to keep my promise (and I'm not going to bet
you can't find some idiot on eBay who will do so. Go ahead and try it. I would
be interested to see how much you can get for it).
But you're missing the point. You have that option only because there IS trade
and travel between the US and Denmark. Get a similar promise from someone in a
remote African jungle village and see if you can get the same payment for that.
>>And I'm not a bit worse off. I've got a beer in my larder (left behind by a
>>visitor), and unless you show up one day to collect it, I'm going to keep on
>>having that beer in my larder.
>
>The cost of keeping that beer in your larder is that you can't sell or give it
>to someone else.
Why not? If I believed you might one day show up here and cash in your Beer
Buck, I might or might not feel a bit restrained in my treatment of that beer
(don't worry, if I should spend it and you do show up, I'll just go buy another
one). But until you do show up, I still control the disposition of that beer. If
someone shows up and demands my beer or my life, I can give him the beer. If I
had mailed it to you, I couldn't do so.
>>In the same way, a planet can send a message to the subsector
>>duke that they owe him 10 billion credits, but unless he shows
>>up to collect ships or supplies to the tune of 10 billion credits,
>>the planet is not one decicred poorer.
>
>1) If they merely say that they owe him the ten billion credits than
>no they are not one decicred poorer. If _however_ they actually
>set the ten billion credits aside than they can't use them to
>buy anything else with. That's all I'm saying.
What ten billion credits? This is situation 2) as described above. They didn't
sell anything, so they send the Duke an IOU. If he ever shows up to cash it in,
they will be poorer by the ships he buys. But until he show up, THEY control the
ships. And if he never shows up, they don't lose anything.
Now, if we're talking about situation 1), then they are already poorer by goods
to the tune of ten billion credits. But they lost that wealth the moment they
turned ower their goods to the merchant and recieved those Crimp notes instead.
If the duke shows up, they can give him those notes and they don't lose
anything more. If he doesn't show up, they can use them as Monopoly money and
they still won't get any poorer for that.
Now, it's true that if they don't plan to use the money to pay taxes, they can
buy off-world goods instead. But they have already paid for those goods by
delivering goods to the merchants in the first place. Exchanging Crimp notes
for new goods merely bring things back in balance. The end result in the latter
case would have been exactly the same if they had swapped the original goods
for the off-world goods in the first place. The money merely serves to keep
score. They could just as well pay their taxes by delivering goods to the
merchants and make the merchants deliver some ships from _their_ home planet to
the duke.
>2) He can sell their IOU to someone else who can then stop buy and get the
stuff.
To the planet this is exactly the same situation as if the duke himself shows
up. No, wait, it's not. If the planet is damn sure the duke will never show up
and the New Guy is a weakling, the planet now has the option to renege on their
IOU and refuse to pay it. Because the IOU is not wealth, it is merely the
promise of wealth.
>Similarly I could sell your IOU one beer on EBay.
Yes you could. But he is not going to get his thirst quenched until I actually
deliver on my promise. He can't drink the IOU.
Hans
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3783
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3784
Date: | 3/8/01 7:11:02 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Thursday, March 8 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3784
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Cutter Books
RE: dog vs human senses
3d Walkthroughs
Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Fw: [URL] Superconductors!
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
Re: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
Re: Astrogation design
Re: Astrogation design
Re: Astrogation design
Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Hyphen's Combat Rules and KB3
Re: Hyphen's Combat Rules and KB3
What Kind of Vargr are you?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:32:31 -0600 (CST)
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Cutter Books
On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Loren Wiseman wrote:
> I am reliably informed that these were drop-shipped to the distribution
> chain, and should be arriving at your US FLGS any time between this weekend
> and next weekend. We get ours (for W23) Monday.
Grrr... I knew this would happen. I just placed a W23 order this
Monday. But at the rate things are going, if I sit and wait for "just
one more book" to come out, I'd never buy anything. It seems something
cool is always at the printer.
Greg Kettler
"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you
may not actually need an explicit loop exit. The loop will be terminated
automatically at the appropriate moment."
-Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:48:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: dog vs human senses
DaveShayne writes:
>>Dogs certainly have a more sensitive sense of smell, and can hear
>>higher frequency sounds than humans, but don't sell us short.
>>Humans have excellent vision, probably better than that of dogs
>>(though this is difficult to determine).
>I think it's probably 6 of one half a dozen of the other. As I recall
>dogs see into the infra-red spectrum
I have not read this anywhere, though it may be true.
>and have a generally better visual accuity resulting in better night
>vision. (not sure of that last one)
Better accuity does not necessarily lead to better night vision.
Dogs appear to have better night vision, but it is tricky to work
out the accuity comparison.
>Our daytime vision is probably superior (we can see colors at any
>rate) again our talents (as species) appear quite complementary.
They certainly are, but I would argue not just because humans
are smart.
>The cat/human symbiosis is a little more tenuous but we get along quite
>well with them also. While cats aren't as amenable to training as dogs they
>do quite well hunting the smaller vermin and the purr thing is a wonderfull
>stress reducer.
Let's not forget the cows, pigs, chickens, wheat, corn, apple trees,
yeast, mushrooms, Penicilium, etc.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:33:56 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: 3d Walkthroughs
Over in the T5 forum somebody is asking about 3D walkthroughs. I seem to
recal somebody talking about some of these a while ago. Maybe still on the
net somewhere.
The discusion thread is in the Fleet section of the Citizens of the Imperium
at Marc's site.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 15:51:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Thing writes:
>>Dogs are red-green colorblind, menaing they can see some colors.
>As are something like 20%-30% of Caucasian males, or maybe it's blue-green
>colour blind. I'll have to go check my visual design reference books.
Red-green colour blindness is the most common, occuring in
something like 5-8% of males (in North America, at least),
and 0.25-0.6% of females.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:11:46 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Fw: [URL] Superconductors!
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
To: <traveller@ient.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 12:34 PM
Subject: [URL] Superconductors!
>
>
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010308/sc/plastic_superconductor_1.html
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:14:49 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
At 12:06 AM -0800 3/8/01, John Lambert wrote:
>The Discovery program addressed the variation in canines excluding
>the forced breeding of dogs. The original canines evolved into the
>wide variety of wolves, foxes, and wild dogs. These different
>varieties vary greatly in size and physical build to match extreme
>hot, cold, and dry environments.
>
>The type of variation I would expect in the Vargr would be to such
>things as high or low gravity, dim or bright light, etc. which are
>not easy to escape using normal technology. The canines appear to be
>able to change physical structure to adapt more than early man.
That would be OK for Vargr that evolved on different worlds or were
isolated for a long time (and didn't just use technology to counter
the environmental differences). But the Vargr evolved on one world
and didn't leave until they had the technology to counter most of the
changed in the environment. Add to this that most Vargr worlds are
in contact with the rest of the extents and will be intermarrying.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:16:20 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
At 4:28 PM -0800 3/7/01, Gerry Harris wrote:
>--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>
><<...i.e. a kind of uplifted coyote or wolf.>>
>
>This brings up the question: Do Vargr consider Wile E. Coyote to be a
>comic genius or a racist stereotype?
Vargr wouldn't related to them at all, any more than you would relate
to a cartoon chimp...
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:29:54 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Am Tuesday, March 06, 2001, las ich folgendes:
>>Budweisser bought in Europe is actually brewed in Europe (printed
>>very small on the ads). And that's on the same planet.
> And Budweiser in Canada is brewed in Canada, and makes a big deal of it.
But European -Budweiser has nothing to do with American Budweiser.
Completely different company from the Czech town of Budweis. They won
a legal battle to the rights of the name.
What you call budweiser, if at all found in Europe (only very seldom)
is sold as "B".
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 13:49:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
I relate to Magilla Gorilla, does that count?
- --- "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote:
> At 4:28 PM -0800 3/7/01, Gerry Harris wrote:
> >--- Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> >
> ><<...i.e. a kind of uplifted coyote or wolf.>>
> >
> >This brings up the question: Do Vargr consider Wile E. Coyote to be
> a
> >comic genius or a racist stereotype?
>
> Vargr wouldn't related to them at all, any more than you would relate
>
> to a cartoon chimp...
>
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> (This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in
California.)
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" — Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1
**********************************************************************************************
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:04:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
>From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
>The cat/human symbiosis is a little more tenuous but we get along quite
>well with them also. While cats aren't as amenable to training as dogs
>they do quite well hunting the smaller vermin and the purr thing is a
>wonderfull stress reducer.
A cat would laugh at this comment, but wouldn't be sure whether it was
naivete or arrogance. Any cat will tell you that it is cats who have
found humans to be quite amenable to training. The cats even got us to
worship them as gods in one of our major civilizations a while ago.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 17:11:51 -0500
From: Gordon Hundley <drgoon@netaxs.com>
Subject: Re: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
on 7/3/01 10:07 am, Trevor, Peter at Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:
>>> what's a "pointer"?
>>
>> Simply C jargon for a call by reference rather than by value.
>
> Good grief, is that all. Why do some people like C so much if
> you have to bother yourself with such trivial matters?
As pointed out, the 'call' part was inaccurate. A pointer is a reference to
the address of a data structure of some sort rather than the structure
itself. It's often used to pass a reference in a call rather than the value.
It also allows you to do all sorts of low-level clever addressing tricks. Of
course, some of the things you can do using pointer arithmetic are just
plain dangerous, particularly if you make assumptions about the hardware
remaining constant.
The reasons that C is popular - it's a highly portable (simple to implement
on any hardware) language that creates a sort of 'high level assembler' that
is largely architecture neutral and syntactically simple. It's also popular
simply because the original C compilers were distributed free with the Bell
Labs Unix distributions. As a result it's the de-facto way to program on a
Unix-related system.
However, many people don't like C precisely because it requires so much
attention to machine-related issues. Sometimes it's better to have a system
that's less trivial to port but which deals with these issues itself. It's
here that C is a boon - these environments become more portable themselves
if coded in C.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:10:19 GMT
From: "John G. Wood" <elvwood@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> > This brings up the question: Do Vargr consider Wile E. Coyote to be
> > a comic genius or a racist stereotype?
>
> Tragic hero.
You've been reading Grant Morrison's Animal Man, haven't you?
John
http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:16:22 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
> Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:24:25 -0800 (PST)
> From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
<snip>
> I'm not even convinced that humans have the greater intellect, although we
> appear to be much better at symbolic analysis. This leads us to the trap
> of measuring intellect by measuring the ability to perform symbolic
> analysis. Dogs are admittedly not very good at symbolic analysis; you can
> barely teach them to do arithmetic, let alone read, write, or do
> mathematics.
>
> Nevertheless, they know a lot about you, about how the world works, how to
> get what they need, and how to feel good and balanced just about all the
> time. If you spend some time doing pack activities with a dog (or better
> a couple of dogs), and stay open to the dog experience, you will learn a
> lot.
<snip>
I won't argue the point a whole bunch. I am saying that the capabilities of
humans and dogs are complementary and so lead to a good symbiotic
relationship.
> The Vargr may well have the best of both capabilities: ki that flows in
> slow waves, allowing great concentration, and highly developed talent at
> symbolic analysis. The Ancients probably developed the Vargr not to be
> guards and assistants, but to be thinkers, who could focus for long
> periods on a problem and who could bring all of their capabilities to
> bear. It is no surprise that the Vargr invented the jump drive on their
> own. They just had to think about how to get to the stars.
I kinda made the same point (less eloquently I'll admit) upthread.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:20:02 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
> Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 11:31:29 -0800 (PST)
> From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
>
> Dogs are red-green colorblind, menaing they can see some colors.
Oops. I hereby ammend my statement to,
"humans see *more* colors than dogs."
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:27:02 +0000
From: Paul Campbell <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: Astrogation design
On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 11:26:42AM -0000, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> Paul Campbell wrote:
> > Why are you using char(2) for you id fields instead of an integer
> > field of some sort? Especially one tied to a Sequence. ('Autonumber'
> > in Access lingo)
>
> Three reasons:
> [Snip]
Okay, I understand why now.
> > > Subsector Position Table
> >
> > Any particular reason why this isn't part of the Subsector Table? I'm
> > not saying you don't have a reason, I just don't see it.
>
> As a "good little programmer" I try to put as much of my data in
> "third normal form" as possible (then denormalise when
> performance is an issue). The subsector codes (from A to P) have
> fixed positions (as established by canon).
>
> For example: Subsector C of the Spinward Marches is the Regina
> subsector. Subsector C of the Trojan Reach is the Pax Rulin
> subsector. Each would have its own separate entry in the
> Subsector Table, yet both have their relative position (third
> along on the top row) the same. Thus, data normalisation says
> this is a separate data entity ... you should only store this
> once (in the Subsector Position Table) for *all* subsector Cs.
>
>
>
> > > Border Table
> >
> > I'd suggest putting the Alignment in the System Table unless you
> > specifically want to allocate Alignements to empty hexes.
>
> Exactly. The best way I could come up with to implement borders
> that matched published canon was to allocate allignments to empty
> hexs (which I know sounds kind of dumb when you first think of
> it). Check out the screenshot on StuffOnline for an example of
> the Jewell subsector as displayed in my half finished program ...
> complete with borders.
I'd looked at this [your site] earlier. I like the maps. Should be
even more impressive once you've added the other sectors.
- --
Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24
http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net
jupiter: 8:21pm up 58 days, 10:01, 4 users, load average: 0.85, 0.52, 0.22
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 20:40:03 +0000
From: Paul Campbell <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: Astrogation design
On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 03:45:23PM -0000, Mark Preston wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Paul Campbell
> > Sent: 06 March 2001 18:57
> > To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> > Subject: Re: Astrogation design
> >
> >
> [snip]
> >
> > This is good at the level where differences occur at the local
> > level, and especially when the changes are in 'free text' fields
> > as per your example. Problems arise when you start to develop
> > Untilites that need to traverse this universe autonomously. Given
> > two differing profiles for a star system which one do you use?
> >
> Unfortunately, when you are designing a sort of "free-for-all"
> transport data structure that can be plugged in to dozens of
> different applications, that is exactly the problem you will
> hit. What I have done so far assumes (and even this much may be
> wrong, which is why I posted it) that the _physical_ details - in
> this case just the location of the sector - will be the same for all
> the game settings and software and that just the descriptions (if
> they are used by particular applications) might vary. I managed that
> by setting the canon/T4/CT flags up for the text and allowed the
> "local" option for those that didn't fit.
>
> You are dead right though - "local" is not enough as it stands. An
> extra, optional, tag is needed to say what the local rules apply to.
> I'll add that as well and it should mean that any application can
> select just the data it needs to run for the particular game setting
> being dealt with.
A way round it could be to and a 'setting' or 'milieu' flag against
each object. Then apply a filter in your programs to only access a
given set. Some items may be valid for more than one setting, and I'd
be reluctant to use a field for each setting. Even though in my own
database design this would be handled in Objects table, it would make
any programs awkward. A field type of SET, as documented in MySQL
could be used. This would require the different settings to be know
at the time the datebase was created. I'll need to think on this a
bit more to get a better answer.
> > Personally I'm not convinced either is better of worse from a
> > modelling point of view. However programatically I would prefer
> > the parallel universes as they are easier to seperate at an early
> > stage. And allow multiple unrelated milieus to reside safely
> > within the same database. The benefits of this are demonstrated
> > by Galactic.
> >
> Oh my word yes - it would probably be possible to actually design an
> application to traverse and calculate based on the data in the XML,
> but I wouldn't like to do it personally. The whole idea is to have
> an XML structure that can be used to import and export data from an
> application so that it can be used by others. Its a data-sharing
> tool, not an application database.
This is exactly how I was envisioning it. The project I'm working on
is an SQL database that can handle this data. You have raised a few
points in your XML that I have realised I would have some difficulty
modeling in my current design. I'm looking to make gs-db as flexible
as I can make it in what it can store. Eventually I'd like to be able
to store individual characters in the database, and be able to move
them from location to location, simply change the parent_id field and
they are there. (Which just makes me realise I'll need some sort of
'jump space' location for ships in transit, with destination location
and times recorded)
> Thanks for the feedback on this stage. I'll make the change to the
> "local" flag, add a second layer for subsectors and then start
> looking at the really tricky one...systems...after I post the
> updated XML. When I add subsectors, by the way, I will do it so
> that a document can contain either one or more sectors, one or more
> subsectors, or one or more sectors (which include one or more
> subsectors) or one or more sectors (which include pointers to one or
> more subsectors in the same or a different document). That should
> allow any level of detail or simplification on the XML.
Let me know what change you make so I can make sure I can reflect this
in gs-db. Thanks.
- --
Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24
http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net
jupiter: 8:27pm up 58 days, 10:07, 4 users, load average: 1.07, 0.71, 0.37
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:06:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Astrogation design
On Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 11:26:42AM -0000, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> > > Border Table
> >
> > I'd suggest putting the Alignment in the System Table unless you
> > specifically want to allocate Alignements to empty hexes.
>
> Exactly. The best way I could come up with to implement borders
> that matched published canon was to allocate allignments to empty
> hexs (which I know sounds kind of dumb when you first think of
> it). Check out the screenshot on StuffOnline for an example of
> the Jewell subsector as displayed in my half finished program ...
> complete with borders.
Actually, coming up with any sensible border table at all requires you to
give alignments to empty hexes.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 01:38:20 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
I'm red-brown colour blind and I find it almost impossible to explain how the
world looks to me even to other red-brown colour blind people.
People with full colour sight can't understand what I'm talking about at all.
For example:
'What colour is that?'
'It's red.'
'So you can see red?'
'I can see that that red thing is red yes.'
'So you can see red?'
'I can generally differentiate primary red from brown but mostly I know its red
because its a London Bus.'
Ben
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Thing <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 7:36 PM
Subject: Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
> On Thursday, March 08, 2001 11:31 AM
> Gerry Harris,
>
> > Dogs are red-green colorblind, menaing they can see some colors.
>
> As are something like 20%-30% of Caucasian males, or maybe it's blue-green
> colour blind. I'll have to go check my visual design reference books.
>
> G.D.D.
> ThingUnderTheStairs
> Minion of SheChemist and GothBunny
> Grand Master of the Electron Flow
> ===========================
> "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite
> you. That is the principal difference between a dog and a man." -Mark Twain
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 01:39:51 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Some humans are amenable to training.
Others believe that cats are a form of evil parasitic space alien.
Ben
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
To: traveller mailing aa list <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 10:04 PM
Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
> >From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
>
> >The cat/human symbiosis is a little more tenuous but we get along quite
> >well with them also. While cats aren't as amenable to training as dogs
> >they do quite well hunting the smaller vermin and the purr thing is a
> >wonderfull stress reducer.
>
> A cat would laugh at this comment, but wouldn't be sure whether it was
> naivete or arrogance. Any cat will tell you that it is cats who have
> found humans to be quite amenable to training. The cats even got us to
> worship them as gods in one of our major civilizations a while ago.
>
> --Glenn
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:22:59 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Hyphen's Combat Rules and KB3
Dear Folks -
The first draft of the KB3 Traveller Task System (v0.5) is now up on my
webpage.
Go to Tavonni Repair Bays ==> Hyphen's Combat Rules ==> The Task Roll ==>
The KB3 Traveller Task System.
I still have about 22 emails from Kenneth to look through, so some of the
more advanced elements are missing (such as Skill Options, Static Target
Numbers for GM's, Optional E-Die Usage, etc). Fortunately, I already had
most of the info he sent (which is where the write-up came from in the
first place), so it should just be a matter of adding a few things, adding
examples, and polishing the text. The section on Skills, for example, needs
some work - I'm thinking on splitting it into Character Skills, Explicit
Level-0 Skills, and Default (Assumed) Level-0 Skills - then explaining what
each means.
Also, I'll probably end up adding the KB3 Experience System as a separate
document.
Comments are welcome, but bear in mind that this is a alpha release, and
there is still some work yet to be done!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:05:48 -0600
From: Kenneth Bearden -- Walker Jane Productions <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Hyphen's Combat Rules and KB3
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> The section on Skills, for example, needs
> some work - I'm thinking on splitting it into Character Skills, Explicit
> Level-0 Skills, and Default (Assumed) Level-0 Skills - then explaining what
> each means.
Sounds like a good idea.
Kenneth.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 21:59:24 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: What Kind of Vargr are you?
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_01F7_01C0A81B.0997CAA0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Two posts that have nothing serious to add to the current Vargr debate. =
The first with a Traveller twist asks what kind of Vargr are you.
http://www.emode.com/dog/
The second is a filched poem from another very strange list I've =
Travellerized.
The clicking of their thunderin' paws,
Ne'er will prepare ye,
For the sight of this horde,
Will sure amaze and scare ye.
Bodies small, numbers vast,
The sight will surely awe ye.
Ye'll be knocked from off yer feet,
By theVargrian Chihuahuas.
They'll chew ankles an' bring ye down,
An' put ye in yer place.
They'll make ye beg for mercy,
By licking ears an' face.
An' yet the cruelty is nay done,
By those beasts that rampage for us.
Ye'll be rendered deaf an' mad,
By their yapping chorus.
These mighty beasts have courage,
Fearless, and so bold.
Then why do brave beasts quake so much?
"Meng, we're reely cold!"
They'll tear ye oop from limb to limb,
Yer defeat t'will true embarrass.
So fear the mighty Yapping Horde,
Chihuahuas de Vargr!
- ------=_NextPart_000_01F7_01C0A81B.0997CAA0
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<DIV>Two posts that have nothing serious to add to the current Vargr=20
debate.&nbsp; The first with a Traveller twist asks what kind of Vargr =
are=20
you.</DIV>
<DIV>
<A=20
href=3D"http://www.emode.com/dog/">http://www.emode.com/dog/
</DIV=
>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The second is a filched poem from another =
very strange=20
list I've Travellerized.</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>The clicking of their thunderin' paws,
Ne'er will prepare =
ye,
For the=20
sight of this horde,
Will sure amaze and scare ye.
Bodies =
small,=20
numbers vast,
The sight will surely awe ye.
Ye'll be knocked from =
off yer=20
feet,
By theVargrian Chihuahuas.
They'll chew ankles an' bring =
ye=20
down,
An' put ye in yer place.
They'll make ye beg for =
mercy,
By=20
licking ears an' face.
An' yet the cruelty is nay done,
By =
those=20
beasts that rampage for us.
Ye'll be rendered deaf an' mad,
By =
their=20
yapping chorus.
These mighty beasts have courage,
Fearless, =
and so=20
bold.
Then why do brave beasts quake so much?
&quot;Meng, we're =
reely=20
cold!&quot;
They'll tear ye oop from limb to limb,
Yer defeat =
t'will=20
true embarrass.
So fear the mighty Yapping Horde,
Chihuahuas de=20
Vargr!
</DIV>
- ------=_NextPart_000_01F7_01C0A81B.0997CAA0--
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3784
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3785
Date: | 3/9/01 5:16:39 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, March 9 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3785
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Leviathan--sort of
Re: Cloning Robots
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
Re: Wealth
Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
Re: Introduction
Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Re: Cutter Books
Re: Introduction
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
Re: Wealth
Re: Wealth
Re: Preferred method to entering buildings
Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
RE: dogs & humans
Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 22:08:40 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Leviathan--sort of
I am attempting to design a GURPS Traveller version of the Leviathan-class
IGS vessel the IISS Nicolas de Nicolay. As in all my starship design
endeavors I am using Tom Bont's great modular design program GURPS Traveller
Shipyard. Since I want the ship to be compatible with GT:Starships, when it
comes out, I'm using the Repository from the playtest.
I'm hoping Tom or one of the other ship design gurus will answer a few
questions for me. According to Adv 4 the Leviathans have two 300 dton
demountable fuel tanks. The program doesn't seem to have any way that I can
add the fuel tanks without them counting toward the vessel's hull tonnage.
(Since they are external they should count against the jump drive distance
calculation, but not the internal hull volume.) Next question is how do I
model the couplings for the fuel tanks? Do I use Turrets with External
clamps installed rated for the stons of the fuel tanks?
Since I'm doing the IGS variant I need a ventral and dorsal external craft
cradle for the 100 dton scout craft. I pretty sure that the program requires
a hardpoint or turret be installed and then that the cradle be installed in
the turret, but I'd like Tom or someone to point out if I'm going about this
wrong.
The lifeboats I'm pretty sure should be in vehicle bays. But should the
Shuttle and pinnace be in a spacedock or two vehicle bays?
I'm entirely unsure of how to handle the emergency personnel capsules. The
whole idea is silly really. Four emergency capsules in addition to the
lifeboats, each one good for one person. Just enough for a group of PC's to
escape in if things get too dicey, while the rest of the NPC crew goes down
with the ship. And the rest of the tubes (2 on deck D, 2 on deck E) are used
for drones or missiles. I suspect I'll just include a probe module to launch
drones and maybe model the capsule tubes as individual .5 dton vehicle bays
with work capsules in them.
I'll post the design as soon as it's finished, so someone please help me fix
the warts.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 22:14:24 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: Cloning Robots
>
> Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 00:33:32 -0600
> From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: Cloning Robots
>
> At 07:22 PM 3/7/2001 -0500, Thomas Jones-Low wrote:
> > This concept has already been done almost to death. The original DPG
> >adventures in the Traveller Digest were all based around the Robiticist,
> >his experimental robot, and their travel through the Imperium.
> > IIRC, they managed to get to Capital just in time to see Dulinor
> > shoot
> >Strephon, then escaped rimward and back to the Marches via the Aslan.
>
> No, they were about 11 years too early (1105) for the assassination, but
> they did get to see Norris' holorep petitioning the emperor for command of
> the Spinward Marches fleets should war break out with the Zhodani
> (5FW). If you can get a copy of 101 robots, they have the break down for
> AB-101 (Aybee Wan Owen (sp?)) and his cost is about MCr11, but he is
> cutting edge tech. There is another pseudo-bio robot listed for about MCr1.5.
>
I've got a copy of 101 Robots somewhere in my Traveller collection. I
think a big part of AB-101's cost was the near AI TL16 robotic brain the
doctor put into him. Personally I think the doctor pulled a
Frankenstein, and had a brain in a bottle in AB-101's chest.
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 21:29:52 -0600
From: Sinbad Sam <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
At 01:47 AM 03/08/2001, you wrote:
>At 10:12 PM -0800 3/7/01, John Lambert wrote:
>> I've always provided for the existance of breeds of Vargr. I also
>> seem to recall some canon statements supporting the idea. As flexible
>> as the canine species is, it would be able to adjust rapidly to suit
>> the environments of different worlds, maybe several times on each
>> world. There was a show, I think on Discovery (maybe the same one
>> that was on the BBC), tracing the spread of canines across the globe
>> (independent of the human-dog association) and showing how they
>> changed size, coat, metabolism, circulation patterns, etc. to adapt
>> to each new environmental opening.
>
>Digest Group Publications did this in Vilani and Vargr. There were
>the sub-species of Urzaeng Vargr who were larger and stronger
>than normal (STR & END 2d+2, DEX & INT 2d-1). In the book there
>were supposed to have originally be bred by the Ancients for
>menial work and guard duty. THey also described an exceedingly
>rare pygmy sub-species (the Kokasha) and a wacky blind psionic
>sub-species. I really liked the Urzaeng and the Kokasha, but the
>Roth Thokken (the blind psis) were perhaps a bit too odd.
>
>All these sub-species were small minorities and the only one that
>were at all common were the Urzaeng. I'd say maybe ~10% of
>Vargr are minor sub-species and around 95% of those are are
>Urzaeng.\
Well the list from V&V is:
Kokasha/Rukhs Dall(mental at expense of physical)nearly extinct
Akumgeda/Ksinanirz(weird psi powers)
Nakagun/Listanaya(weird psi powers)
Roth Thokken/Angfitsag(weird psi powers)it was noted in the story pages in the vargr section that some vargr(Roth Thokken) were stepping over an IR detector beam fence, but did not have any visible IR gear being worn.
The rest of the subspecies were "..members of many different sub species exist in small numbers scattered throughtout the Extents and Enclaves, awaiting discovery by curious sophontologists."
V&V page 63
Sinbad Sam
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 22:28:51 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
> > > This brings up the question: Do Vargr consider Wile E. Coyote to
be
> > > a comic genius or a racist stereotype?
> >
> > Tragic hero.
>
> You've been reading Grant Morrison's Animal Man, haven't you?
Is it that obvious? :-)
Of course, long before I ever read "The Coyote Gospel" I rooted for Wile.
Everything he does *should* work, but life (and those damned Acme
products) conspires against him. Still, he doesn't let it stop him, and
he just keeps on trying.
Wile is my hero.
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:19:47 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Wealth
Mexal wrote:
>On payment, UK law states that: -
>>
1>. By offering to sell, and posting prices for, an item, there is an
i>mplicit contract the terms of which are met by
>
>2. You offering ('tendering' is the technical term) payment of at least
>the value asked for the item using coin of the realm - which is called
>'legal tender' erm, because it is the thing you legally are supposed to
>tender.
>
>If the shopkeeper refuses to take 'legal tender' in exchange for goods
he
>has on sale, he is in breach of the law. Unless he says, when you come
in,
>that he is closed, or doesn't want to sell to YOU.
>
>They are allowed to set terms on other forms of payment: cheques,
>credit/debit cards, charge cards, etc. About the only thing with real
hard
>cash is that they can refuse to accept a really massive pile of small
>coins (e.g. paying a hundred pounds in two-pence coins!).
>
>If the same held good in the 3I, that the Imperial Credit is 'legal
>tender', then the barman would have to accept it unless he decided to
>ban you from the premises (wise move with most TRAVELLER parties I've
>refereed!).
>
OK, how is the situation handled if there is more than one form of
"legal tender"? (I am hoping for an answer from those in Europe, who
are in the process of changing to the Euro) Canon states that worlds
have thier own currency. Can a shop keeper post a sign that he only
accepts one but not the other? My example, was that in areas far from
the sources of Imperial Currency that fewer shopkeepers would accept it
(i.e. that it is harder for them to exchange it for things that they
need or want). Can a shopkeeper post a notice that prices are in "local
Cr" and that the exchange rate is 20CrImp to 1 "local Cr" when at the
starport the exchange rate is 20 "local Cr" to 1 CrImp?
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 23:28:51 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Homo sapiens or otherwise
Peez wrote:
>Charles H writes:
>>>Total layman's question: are the different breeds of dog, like
>>>chihuahuas, great danes, etc, considered to be subspecies or "races"?
>>The different breeds of dogs are all the same species (Canis
>>familiaris), some call them seperate sub-species.
>>ObTrav: Alien Modules 6 calls them seperate sub-species.
>>Dogs, wolves (Canis lupis), and coyotes (Canis latrans) are
>>interfertile, and thus may be misclassified as seperate species.
>
> Just to be fair to the taxonomists, even if they are
> interfertile, and even if that applies to all populations
> and is complete (no reduction in viability of offspring),
> considering them different species is not necessarily
> "misclassifying" them. Although we may accept the
> "biological species concept" for use with humaniti in
> Traveller, it is not the universal definition in the Real
> World (tm).
I stand corrected.
Thanks
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 07:55:14 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
On Thu, 8 Mar 2001, Volker wrote:
> Am Tuesday, March 06, 2001, las ich folgendes:
> >>Budweisser bought in Europe is actually brewed in Europe (printed
> >>very small on the ads). And that's on the same planet.
> > And Budweiser in Canada is brewed in Canada, and makes a big deal of it.
> But European -Budweiser has nothing to do with American Budweiser.
> Completely different company from the Czech town of Budweis. They won
> a legal battle to the rights of the name.
> What you call budweiser, if at all found in Europe (only very seldom)
> is sold as "B".
Well, here in Finland we have (or at least had a couple of years ago) both
the Czech Budweiser and the American Budweiser. (No, I can't think of a
reason to import American Bud, we produce our own p*** very well, thank
you. It might be the feeling of drinking an American drink, though...)
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 22:06:29 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: License To Program (was Re: New Traveller software project)
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Frank G. Pitt writes:
> > Trevor, Peter wrote:
> >
> > > I've been a professional programmer since 1987, worked for the
> > > construction industry, automotive, telecoms, several merchant
> > > banks, software houses, and multinationals. My question is this:
> > > what's a "pointer"?
> >
> > A block of memory, ontaining the memory address of some other block of
> > memory.
>
> Hm...I'd call a pointer 'a variable containing the address of a block of
> memory'.
Actually, I agree my definition is not complete, it needs to be stated that
you can modify the value of the block of memory for it to be a "pointer"
rather than a "reference", which calling it a "variable" implies.
The reason I didn't use the term "variable" is that in C and C++ it doesn't
have to be a "variable" as defined by the langage to use it as a pointer.
For instance you can malloc a block of memory, and then use part of _that_
memory as a pointer, without ever declaring the block of memory to be a
"variable".
> Several languages use pointer-like objects without calling them
> pointers, however -- for example, a 'new X' call in an object-oriented
> language returns what is functionally a pointer.
Sort of. For instance, C++ does, but Java doesn't.
For it to be a pointer you have to be able to directly modify the _value_ of
the block of memory.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 22:12:41 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
Ben Aaronovitch wrote :
> Some humans are amenable to training.
>
> Others believe that cats are a form of evil parasitic space alien.
And some humans train cats.
My wife, for instance, has trained two of our cats to roll over on command,
and one of them to jump up onto a bed on command.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 01:10:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Introduction
- --- Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
> wrote:
>
>I have a suggestion for an essay subject:
>
>Describe the impact that widely available nanotechnology would have on the
>Official Traveller Universe.
Strike Me pink.....I'm just a simple Grunt, what the hell is an essay? <weg>
Antaine.
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 01:19:39 -0800
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:
>The cats even got us to worship them as gods in one of our major
>civilizations a while ago.
More importantly, cats have never forgotten this.
- --------------
Kelly St.Clair "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org Right here in fair Verona
With a capital T that rhymes with D
That stands for Duel..."
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:22:34 +0100
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Cutter Books
Loren Wiseman wrote:
> I am reliably informed that these were drop-shipped to the distribution
> chain, and should be arriving at your US FLGS any time between this weekend
> and next weekend. We get ours (for W23) Monday.
I will order it, either from W23 or from my local shop if possible (actually
cheaper that way).
> Go look at the cool Jesse art on the cover and inside.
As always.
> I've been trying to get this book published for 10 years, and finally did it.
Congratulations! Some people may have their doubts about this book, but I feel
that it will be both useful and inspiring.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 10:30:02 +0100
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Introduction
Antaine wrote:
> Strike Me pink.....I'm just a simple Grunt, what the hell is an essay? <weg>
Traditionally, list newbies are required to write an essay on a topic allocated
by the list. The topics are either topics of past flamewars, past jokes, or just
overly complicated.
In case you haven't guessed, its just another one of our past jokes. Sometimes,
however, a person actually writes something and posts it. The resulting
discussion of an old subject using this new view of the problem can be very
entertaining.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 09:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!) >
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.10.10103090749520.5461-100000@akvamariini.hut.fi>
Greetings dear hearts.
In the UK, you can get both US Budweiser and a (superior) product from
Czechoslovakia called Budvar. Budweiser, incidentally, is far nicer served
draught than from bottles, but I only know one place locally that does
that (it's a US style diner/burger place).
But I'm a 'real ale' drinker and my favourite watering hole brews its
own... the beer I like best is actually a 3.2 called Charles I (the head
brewer is an English Civil War enthusiast and names all his brews after
personalities and events from that period!).
There's probably an ObTrav in that, erm... no doubt you'll find someone
serving locally brewed ales named after Imperial notables. Fancy a pint of
Strephon's Armpit, anyone? Or Old Dulinor Piss?
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 09:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Wealth
In-Reply-To: <3AA867F0.F1132FF3@gte.net>
Greetings dear hearts.
Currency transactions can be vastly amusing (especially to the DM!).
In 1990 I visited Russia. The 'official' exchange rate was one rouble to
one pound sterling. Any black market street corner entrepreneur would
offer you 30 roubles for your pound, so the official exhangers did
virtually no business. Eventually the government realised that they were
losing out, and reset the official rate to 10 roubles to the pound. A lot
of people then played safe by using the official changers, the risk being
no longer worth the profit!
I'm sure the same sort of thing happens on planets in TRAVELLER. Just as
in Europe, some nations have adopted the Euro and others have not, so
planetary governments will be making choices about what constitutes legal
tender... and traders decide what they will accept. For example, in my
globetrotting, I have found few places that will not accept a US dollar
(except in the Arab world!).
Sometimes I will decide that a planet uses a local currency - for example
I have one world called Legeza, that uses a currency made up of Sheckels
and Bits (100 Bits = 1 Sheckel, there is also a 25 Sheckel coin called a
Wheel). Nobody will look at a CrImp (I love that term and intend to use it
henceforth!), so moneychangers at the starport do a roaring trade. Other
planets have adopted the CrImp entirely, or accept it in parallel with
local currency.
Imperial Law, I would imagine, requires the acceptance of CrImp as legal
tender. However it's down to the planetary government (if sovereign) to
decide if they want to use their own currency for purely local
transactions. Any Imperial contract would be specified in CrImps, and
Imperial military, etc., personnel on planet are paid therein - but can
draw local currency from the cash officer if they prefer. (Those of you
who have served in the military no doubt are familiar with being paid in
local currency when overseas, although your actual pay is in the currency
of the nation you serve.)
Official exchange rates may be either set by government or traded on the
open market. That probably depends on the nature of the planetary
government (i.e. how much fiscal control they wish to exert) and the
nature of the relationships and treaty agreements between that planet and
the Imperium.
More bumpf straight off the top of my head...
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:48:51 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: Wealth
Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net> writes:
>OK, how is the situation handled if there is more than one form of
>"legal tender"? (I am hoping for an answer from those in Europe, who
>are in the process of changing to the Euro) Canon states that worlds
>have thier own currency. Can a shop keeper post a sign that he only
>accepts one but not the other?
If a currency is legal tender, then, by definition, it's illegal for
the shopkeeper to refuse to accept it.
(I *think* that if he did refuse to take the money, you would be
within your rights to leave it lying on the counter and walk out the
shop with your goods. But I wouldn't recommend doing this in practice
until you've checked the position with a lawyer...)
As I recall, when the UK decimalised its currency back in the 1970s,
both the old and the new coins and notes were legal tender for a short
changeover period. There was a fixed exchange rate (one old shilling
= 5 new pence), and all prices had to be quoted in the new currency.
Very quickly, the old coins were withdrawn from circulation by the
banks, and then their legal tender status was revoked. I imagine the
same will be done in those countries introducing the Euro next year.
(Although I understand it's already compulsory in the Eurozone to
display prices in both currencies).
>My example, was that in areas far from
>the sources of Imperial Currency that fewer shopkeepers would accept it
>(i.e. that it is harder for them to exchange it for things that they
>need or want). Can a shopkeeper post a notice that prices are in "local
>Cr" and that the exchange rate is 20CrImp to 1 "local Cr" when at the
>starport the exchange rate is 20 "local Cr" to 1 CrImp?
If the CrImp is legal tender on the world, then no he can't. However,
I personally doubt that the Imperium will insist on planets making the
CrImp legal tender for *internal* transactions - see my earlier post
on this.
For an example of how this might work, consider the Euro - this
currency is already in use for intergovernment transactions in Europe,
and multinational companies publish their accounts in Euros; but it
is impossible for an ordinary citizen to go into a bank and ask for
money in Euro notes, because there aren't any in circulation yet.
Alternatively, consider any of the countries with fixed exchange
controls and non-convertible currencies. The locals can only obtain
local currency, which they have to spend in local shops. Tourists who
come in with hard currency can go to special government-run tourist
shops and spend their dollars, Euros, pounds etc on luxury goods. The
government then uses this hard currency to purchase goods from abroad
for its own use. There is probably also a black market, aimed at
obtaining hard currency from tourists and distributing it to the
locals - who can then use it to buy luxury imported goods.
If you *do* have two separate currencies that are both legal tender,
then complications arise. Do you have a fixed exchange rate between
them? Then if the real value of one currency drops (due to outside
forces - maybe the Sector Duke has printed a few bushels of new CrImps
to finance his personal yacht) the other currency will be hoarded, or
people may start illegally refusing to accept the cheaper currency, or
unofficially adjusting its value in transactions. If both currencies
can float in value, then every transaction becomes an adventure, as
the shopkeeper decides how much he's going to have to charge in each
currency. On a high-tech world, everyone would need a computer
plugged into the currency exchange markets to work out prices every
time they bought a loaf of bread...
As for a real-life example of this situation, the only one I can think
of is bimetallism, when both silver and gold coinage was legal tender
- - and the supply of silver and gold was independent of each other.
That led to periodic bursts of inflation and depression as new mines
were opened and closed.
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 07:51:39 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: Preferred method to entering buildings
- --part1_55.123c1db3.27da2bdb_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>"The preferred method of entering a building is to use a tank main gun
>round, direct fire artillery round, or TOW, Dragon, or Hellfire missile
I prefer on my own two feet, or even better inside the tank, riding one of
those rounds or a missile is a little hard on the body at my age.......
Bryan
- --part1_55.123c1db3.27da2bdb_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
&gt;"The preferred method of entering a building is to use a tank main gun
&gt;round, direct fire artillery round, or TOW, Dragon, or Hellfire missile
I prefer on my own two feet, or even better inside the tank, riding one of
those rounds or a missile is a little hard on the body at my age.......
Bryan
- --part1_55.123c1db3.27da2bdb_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 07:55:51 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: Breeds of Vargr IYTU?
- --part1_a2.1128dd34.27da2cd7_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Actually in canon there are (or is) room for different breeds. If I remember
correctly there is a blind(?) Vargr race in Gvurrdon sector for instance.
However, I don't think there is room for too many variations.
Bryan
- --part1_a2.1128dd34.27da2cd7_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Actually in canon there are (or is) room for different breeds. If I remember
correctly there is a blind(?) Vargr race in Gvurrdon sector for instance.
However, I don't think there is room for too many variations.
Bryan
- --part1_a2.1128dd34.27da2cd7_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 08:11:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: dogs & humans
DaveShayne
>I won't argue the point a whole bunch. I am saying that the capabilities of
>humans and dogs are complementary and so lead to a good symbiotic
>relationship.
<snipped>
FYI: a common missuse of the term "symbiosis" is to refer to a
mutually beneficial relationship between two organisms. In fact,
it means a very close relationship between two organisms. Thus,
a tapeworm and its host are in a symbiotic relationship. When
the interaction between two organisms is mutually beneficial, it
is called a mutualism.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:14:15 EST
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
- --part1_32.11aa6636.27da3127_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Re: Dogs & Human Evolution
Thing writes:
>>Dogs are red-green colorblind, menaing they can see some colors.
>>As are something like 20%-30% of Caucasian males, or maybe it's blue-green
>>colour blind.=A0 I'll have to go check my visual design reference books.
>
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Red-green colour blindness is the most common, occuring in
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 something like 5-8% of males (in North America, at least),
>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 and 0.25-0.6% of females
Gee, and women thought all men are dogs......
(and some men thought all women are bit****)
Bryan
All references to being human are purely fictional and any resemblance to=20
anybody living is purely coincidental.
- --part1_32.11aa6636.27da3127_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Re: Dogs &amp; Human Evol=
ution
Thing writes:
&gt;&gt;Dogs are red-green colorblind, menaing they can see some colors.
&gt;&gt;As are something like 20%-30% of Caucasian males, or maybe it's=20=
blue-green
&gt;&gt;colour blind.=A0 I'll have to go check my visual design referenc=
e books.
&gt;
&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Red-green colour blindness is the most common, occur=
ing in
&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 something like 5-8% of males (in North America, at l=
east),
&gt;=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 and 0.25-0.6% of females
Gee, and women thought all men are dogs......
(and some men thought all women are bit****)
Bryan
All &nbsp;references to being human are purely fictional and any resembl=
ance to=20
anybody living is purely coincidental.
- --part1_32.11aa6636.27da3127_boundary--
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3785
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3786
Date: | 3/9/01 12:01:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, March 9 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3786
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: 3d Walkthroughs
RE: 3d Walkthroughs
re: Intro
15mm Laserburn Troopers and Vehicles miniatures on Ebay
RE: Imperial and local currency
RE: 3d Walkthroughs
RE: Wealth
RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
RE: [URL] Superconductors!
FNG....Hello folks
RE: FNG....Hello folks
Re: Time shortage
Re: Time shortage
RE: Wealth
Unsubscribe
RE: Unsubscribe
Re: Wealth
RE: Wealth
Re: Wealth
RE: Unsubscribe
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 07:27:59 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: 3d Walkthroughs
On Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:33:56 -0500 daveshayne@email.msn.com (DaveShayne) wrote:
>Over in the T5 forum somebody is asking about 3D walkthroughs. I seem to
>recal somebody talking about some of these a while ago. Maybe still on the
>net somewhere.
>
>The discusion thread is in the Fleet section of the Citizens of the Imperium
>at Marc's site.
I remember a looong time ago, someone was talking about how they dida starship
in a game level designer (perhaps it was Marathon, perhaps it was Quake)
One possible solution is Design Workshop. This is a 3D CAD program available
at Artifice: http://www.artifice.com
A lite version is avaliable for the cost of downloading it, or $20 on CD (with
a bunch of other stuff). There are two higher levels of the program getting
you more features and a larger workspace (greater number of objects) at $80
and $450...
It's available for both Mac and PC and is a pretty neat program for slapping
together a quick walkthrough.
Bruce Johnson
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:47:54 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: 3d Walkthroughs
Bruce Johnson wrote:
> (DaveShayne) wrote:
> > Over in the T5 forum somebody is asking about 3D walkthroughs.
> > I seem to recal somebody talking about some of these a while
> > ago. Maybe still on the net somewhere.
>
> I remember a looong time ago, someone was talking about how they
> dida starship in a game level designer (perhaps it was Marathon,
> perhaps it was Quake)
I found some Marathon stuff during a Website Review of Glenn
Hoppe's "Jumpspace" website (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275).
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 07:42:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Jeff Hopper <jeff37923@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Intro
Now that I know what a newbie essay is, I accept your
challenge Mr. Goffin.
I ask for two things. First about a week to collect
some real world data on radiation sickness beyond my
nuke overview of 12 years ago. Second, the assistance
of the TML members in constructive criticism when the
rules draft is posted here.
I'll hit short-term radiation exposure first.
Long-term radiation exposure will take a lot longer
for me to research.
- --- Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >From: Jeff Hopper <jeff37923@yahoo.com>
>
> > Does anyone know of a set of rules governing
> >radiation exposure and its damaging effects for CT?
> >I've been able to find a kludge for TNE based on
> >Twilight:2000, but that is all. If anyone knows of
> >any, please let me know.
>
> DGP wrote some rules for this in Traveller's Digest
> or Megatraveller
> Journal, but I think they apply to MT.
>
> This would be a good newbie essay.
>
> --Glenn
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
> http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:54:05 -0500
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
Subject: 15mm Laserburn Troopers and Vehicles miniatures on Ebay
Hi all,
I just put up some Laserburn 15mm Troopers and Vehicles (Combat trikes) on
EBAY. I bought out the remaining stock of a UK hobby store and have been
sifting through the stuff deciding what I want to keep.
http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=arathar&inc
lude=0&since=-1&sort=2&rows=25
Also, I recently put up a set of Keith Brothers Folio adventures but they
sold right away. I mention it only because I scanned the covers and the
artwork is cool.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=568098317
Maybe I was dumb to accept $30 for it, because it went so fast.
Bye,
Glenn (arathar)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:57:27 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial and local currency
According to Far Trader Imperial Credits are issued by Sector Treasuries. I
would assume that the credits are good in any sector, but FT comments on the
Imperium's ability to withdraw backing from credits from a particular
sector, should serious economic disaster strike.
FT also says that the Imperium doesn't practice electronic transactions the
way present Earth cultures do. Banks may make deals between themselves for
letters or credit or drafts, but in the final tally the only way to get
credits from world A to world B is to either transport bales of cash or
transport actual goods.
It strikes me that this would make it harder for the little guy to utilize
interstellar banking, The big boys will always be able to pay somebody to
make it easy for them. (Like Hortelez et Cie for example.)
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Paul Drye
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 2:15 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Imperial and local currency
>What are the economic consequences to the Imperium of member states using
>their own currencies internally? Would that harm the economy of the
>Imperium in any way?
If anything, it would help. If a currency is used over a region so large
that the economy isn't even, then it's very difficult to control economic
growth. For example, Region A is going like gangbusters and you want to cool
it off to prevent inflation, but Region B is on the verge of recession and
you want to pump things up. With different currencies in each region, you
can fiddle with the money supply of each. With a single currency across
both, you lose this lever.
An empire more than a two years across is almost certainly too big for a
single currency to be the best solution.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 08:39:20 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: 3d Walkthroughs
I was part of those discussions about a year(!!!) ago now or so. I'd wanted
to do levels for the [fnord] in Half-Life, but haven't had time. Maybe with
the [fnord...fnord...fnord...]
<modem reports no carrier>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Trevor, Peter
> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 6:48 AM
> To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> Subject: RE: 3d Walkthroughs
>
>
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > (DaveShayne) wrote:
> > > Over in the T5 forum somebody is asking about 3D walkthroughs.
> > > I seem to recal somebody talking about some of these a while
> > > ago. Maybe still on the net somewhere.
> >
> > I remember a looong time ago, someone was talking about how they
> > dida starship in a game level designer (perhaps it was Marathon,
> > perhaps it was Quake)
>
> I found some Marathon stuff during a Website Review of Glenn
> Hoppe's "Jumpspace" website (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275).
>
> Regards PLST
> (aka Stalin)
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:10:27 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Wealth
Peter Newman writes:
>
>Let me try to make myself clear. Traveller is a role playing
>game. The question I am asking is "Suppose that the players go
>into the only bar on a low population planet within the Imperium
>and order a drink. The bartender requires payment in advance. For
>some strange and illogical reason of his own he will not take Imperial
>credits as payment, despite the fact that he could spend them easily.
>Can the characters get Imperial law enforcement agents to make
>the bartender take their credits or are they S.O.L.?"
>
>The question I am asking is not if Imperial credits are generally
>accepted, the question I am asking is "Must Imperial credits,
>as a matter of law, be accepted?" I am simply stating that my
>reading of canon about the fall of the Second Imperium and T4
>canon about the formation of the Third Imperium make me believe
>that the Third Imperium seems like the sort of place that would
>require its people to take Imperial credits. Your mileage may
>vary.
I have to honestly say that I'm surprised at this question. Is there any
legitimate government is existence that does not require business (and
citizens for that matter) within its boarders not to accept its currency? As
a matter of fact the refusal of a person to take the currency of his own
country is usually a sign that the government is near collapse, i.e. the
persons involved feel that the currency will become worthless.
Now I know that there were times in history when people could refuse to take
script, and insist on gold or silver. I don't think that situation applies
here, since the Imperium does not use a back currency.
So the question is, I guess, is the CrImp like the U.S. dollar, or like the
Euro? By that I mean people in the U.S must accept the dollar "for all debts
public and private." The government's standard response is not to kill the
individual involved, but simply to make it impossible for him to operate.
They are not alone in this. If someone won't use the dollar how do they pay
their taxes? Who will rent a building to them? How will they buy their
wares? Basically no one can refuse to use the dollar in isolation.
I'm not sure about how the Euro works, but as I understand it the countries
in the European Union are also keeping their own currency. So you can pay in
either. Can someone refuse Euro's and insist on being paid in Francs? I
don't know. If they could then I suppose Francs would become worth more, in
the real world, if not on the exchange. If enough people felt this way. (I
might be wrong and people might have to take Euro's, in which case my
analogy still works, the real life example is just wrong.)
The best example of how the CrImp might work is the example of the U.S.
dollar, not in the U.S., but overseas. I've traveled all over the world. In
a pinch, in almost every place, I could find someone who would take the U.S.
dollar, even if it was illegal for them to accept in instead of their own
country's currency. (Europe is mostly an exception here, though it's very
easy to find a place to exchange dollars there.) Typically if it was a place
tourist go, they accept the dollar. If it was a bar (or brothel) in a port
city they accept the dollar. Many time the worst shape the local government
was in or the worst their relationship was with the U.S. government, the
more anxious they were to accept the dollar.
Why? Because, unlike their own money, which rose or fell with their own
governments (which changed quite often in some cases) they had confidence
the U.S. would still be around the honor that dollar. That meant other
people would honor that dollar too. It didn't matter if the hated the U.S.
with all their guts. It was a form of currency that had a particular value.
No one made them take it. In most cases they wanted more than their own
money, which was not a stable in value. As I said in some cases it was
actually illegal for them to except it (and me to give it to them.) They
still wanted it, because it was "hard currency", currency that had long term
value. I believe this is the just of Han's statements. He believes that
people will take the CrImp for the same reason so many people take the
dollar.
To get back to your bar: If the bar is in the starport, I'd say he'd have
to take the CrImps. They person to complain to wouldn't be security. The
PC's would have to lodge a complaint with the Starport Authority, who would
probably consider this a lease violation, and out his business would go. If
it was in town, I'd say he just doesn't want off world business. If it's a
backwater then I suspect no one will care, unless all his suppliers want
CrImps, at which time he goes out of business. The ***local*** government
might want ***their*** taxes in CrImp, in which case they might jail him for
refusal to pay. I don't think the government would care that he won't sell
to the PC's though.
>
>Let me try to connect it. The Rebellion happened because Dulinor
>would not accept Strephon's authority (yes that's a bit simplified).
>Therefore the rebellion was about the extent of imperial power.
>I am asserting that canon (the Warrant of Restoration) gives the
>Imperium the authority (supremacy clause) to do what they feel is
>necessary. Canon (library data and numerous adventures) also establishes
>that the Imperial government sometimes uses that authority. It also
>establishes that currency problems caused the fall of the Rule of
>man (library data). It also establishes (Milieu 0 Campaign) that
>when the Third Imperium was put together Cleon wanted to avoid
>the problems of the First and Second Empires.
>
>Therefore it seems to me that the Imperium would not let people
>not take Imperial Credits. It also seemed to me (and is canon)
>that when people do things the Imperial government does not like
>they sometimes kill them. Therefore not accepting Imperial credits
>is one of the things on the list that of things the Imperium might
>kill people for. I am suggesting that this power was probably used
>on at least one occasion during the Rebellion.
>
The Imperial Government will not let world governments not honor the CrImp.
Whether that means that they must accept CrImps at a set exchange rate to
their own currency, or take CrImps directly from offworld visitors is up to
the GM. I don't suspect they would act against ***individuals*** who refuse
the CrImp. Now if banks, companies (there is a differnce between a "Mom &
Pop" business and a company or corporation) refused to take CrImps that is
another matter, which might result in a violent reaction. More likely I just
think the world would be interdicted. Once the standard of living decreases
because there is no trade the populous will come around. (Traveller
interdictions work better than real world ones because the IN doesn't play
games, unlike the U.S. Navy which is hamstrung by lots of rules that allow
massive amounts of contraband to enter and leave the interdicted country the
IN simply blows out of the sky anyone breaking the interdiction.)
(Since Megacorps are primarily owned by the Nobility, who have a lot riding
on the Imperium and the CrImp I suspect a Megacorp Director who refuse to
accept CrImps would find himself running a mining operation on a Corrosive
Atmosphere hellhole for the rest of his career.)
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 09:33:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Dogs & Human Evolution
>From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
> From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
>> I'm not even convinced that humans have the greater intellect, although
>I won't argue the point a whole bunch. I am saying that the capabilities
>of humans and dogs are complementary and so lead to a good symbiotic
>relationship.
Agreed.
>> The Vargr may well have the best of both capabilities: ki that flows
in
>
>I kinda made the same point (less eloquently I'll admit) upthread.
I was just continuing your thought.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:29:44 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: [URL] Superconductors!
Certainly an interesting development. Of course the real breakthrough will
be when (and if) we discover high temperature superconductors.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Thing
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 4:12 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Fw: [URL] Superconductors!
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
To: <traveller@ient.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 12:34 PM
Subject: [URL] Superconductors!
>
>
> http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010308/sc/plastic_superconductor_1.html
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:13:09 -0500
From: "Mycroft3" <mycroft3@earthlink.net>
Subject: FNG....Hello folks
Hi everyone, I am a long time traveller fan, mostly a collector these days.
Just stumbled over the list doing a client's search!
I'll just shut up now and go back to lurking.
Mycroft
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:17:09 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: FNG....Hello folks
Shoundt have said anything Mycroft Now your going to get an Essay Assignment
8P
- -----Original Message-----
From: Mycroft3 [mailto:mycroft3@earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 10:13 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: FNG....Hello folks
Hi everyone, I am a long time traveller fan, mostly a collector these days.
Just stumbled over the list doing a client's search!
I'll just shut up now and go back to lurking.
Mycroft
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:42:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Time shortage
In mail you write:
> At 08:53 AM 03/07/01 PST, you wrote:
>>I thought I'd let folks know that I'm likely to be spending a lot less
>>time reading the list for at least a while.
>>
>>I'm afraid I've found someone^H^H^Hthing more interesting to occupy my
>>time. <g>
>>
>>I'll still be looking in, but I'm going to be skipping a *lot* of stuff.
>>Sorry, but a guy has to have his priorities straight. :-)
>
> As the Leonard Erickson Breeding Program waits in hushed anticipation...
Sorry, neither of us is planning on having kids.
If the program is willing to settle for a sperm donation, I'm *sure*
she'd be glad to co-operate in helping me provide one. <g>
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:44:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Time shortage
In mail you write:
> Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G}) wrote:
>> I thought I'd let folks know that I'm likely to be spending a
>> lot less time reading the list for at least a while.
>>
>> I'm afraid I've found someone^H^H^Hthing more interesting to
>> occupy my time. <g>
>>
>> I'll still be looking in, but I'm going to be skipping a *lot*
>> of stuff.
>> Sorry, but a guy has to have his priorities straight. :-)
>
> Surely you're missing something here. Relationships are about
> sharing. Educate this other person in the ways of Traveller and
> then you can both share the joy of reading the TML together. :-P
Thanks, but there's quite enough to share already. <g>
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 19:24:26 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Wealth
Terry Carlino wrote:
> I'm not sure about how the Euro works, but as I understand it
> the countries in the European Union are also keeping their own
> currency. So you can pay in either. Can someone refuse Euro's
> and insist on being paid in Francs? I don't know. If they could
> then I suppose Francs would become worth more, in the real world,
> if not on the exchange. If enough people felt this way. (I might
> be wrong and people might have to take Euro's, in which case my
> analogy still works, the real life example is just wrong.)
Quick clarification on the Euro:
1) First off, most (but not all) member states of the European
Union have 'joined the Euro'. A few (eg. UK, Denmark, etc)
have declined joining ... initially. In some cases there were
compulsory exclusions due to unfavourable economic conditions,
in other cases the member state voluntarily declined for
political reasons (sometimes dressed up as economic reasons).
However, most of the key member states did join.
2) Coins and notes are tokens 'representing' money. On joining
the Euro those member state's national currencies actually
ceased to exist in the true sense! But the coins and notes of
the old currencies remain in circulation as non-decimal
denominations of a Euro (thus the exchange rates between these
'currencies' and the Euro are fixed). This is a transitional
stage ... soon these non-decimal denominations will be
withdrawn leaving just Euro notes and coins.
So, for example, a German shop refusing French Francs is the same
as a US shop refusing certain inconveinent sized bills (like
refusing a $50.00 for a pack of gum).
> The best example of how the CrImp might work is the example of
> the U.S. dollar, not in the U.S., but overseas.
That's how it works IMTU.
> To get back to your bar: If the bar is in the starport, I'd
> say he'd have to take the CrImps. They person to complain to
> wouldn't be security. The PC's would have to lodge a complaint
> with the Starport Authority, who would probably consider this
> a lease violation, and out his business would go. If it was in
> town, I'd say he just doesn't want off world business. If it's
> a backwater then I suspect no one will care, unless all his
> suppliers want CrImps, at which time he goes out of business.
> The ***local*** government might want ***their*** taxes in
> CrImp, in which case they might jail him for refusal to pay. I
> don't think the government would care that he won't sell to
> the PC's though.
IMTU inside the XT line is off-planet and so the crimp is the
standard currency. Other currencies may be accepted on a barter
basis (and caviat emtor (sp?)). Outside the XT line it depends
on the local government but probably the startown would readily
accept crimps ... but at a fixed rate that is not favourable to
the customer. (I once had a job in a Canadian 7-11 store. We
would accept US dollars but you'd get better value if you changed
your US dollars for Canadian dollars at a bank.) Unstable
economies and/or authoritarian regimes would probably restrict
the use of crimps onplanet (maybe even ban them outright).
Offworld trade must be in crimps ... no I'm contradicting myself:
Say a merchant from world A wants to buy 10,000 widgets from a
merchant from world B. If the 1st merchant has 1,000,000 dinars
and the price is Crimp 50,000 for the widgets the 2nd merchant
might make a deal to 'buy' the dinars from the 1st merchant for
Crimp 50,000 if the 1st merchant agrees to the widget sale. Thus
the 1st merchant gets his widgets and the 2nd merchant gets a
bunch of dinars ... but it was done as 2 transactions, each
involving crimps. Outside of world A dinars are not a currency
but merely another asset ... but any asset is tradeable.
Regardless, world governments must pay their Imperial taxes in
crimps. Pure and simple.
To summarise: IMTU if the bar is offworld (eg. within the XT
line) it must accept crimps (or it may barter if it wants to).
But if onworld it may accept crimps at a bad exchange rate [1] or
alternatively it may be barred from trading in crimps by the
local government.
[1] = For example: if the local currency is "marks" and the
exchange rate varies (from day to day) from 1.3 to 1.5
marks to the crimp, a startown bar might accept crimps at a
fixed value of 1.25 marks to the crimp.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:26:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Unsubscribe
Unsubscribe
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" — Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1
**********************************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 19:29:40 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Unsubscribe
Gerry Harris wrote:
> Unsubscribe
Was it something we said?
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:37:24 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Wealth
What I find interesting in this thread is the fact that no one has
mentioned the exchange rate rules in TRAVELLER...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 19:43:47 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Wealth
Hal wrote:
> What I find interesting in this thread is the fact that no one has
> mentioned the exchange rate rules in TRAVELLER...
We were just coming to that. :-P
The exchange rate rules in Traveller give you an exchange rate
between the crimp and a hypothetical currency called the local
'credit'. The actual local currency will have an exchange rate
to the local credit that can be any number ... it has no effect
on the value of the local currency. Thus if Terran dollars are
100 to the local credit simply multiply *all* local credit
amounts by 100 to get Terran dollars.
So the PCs might be please when they convert their Cr(imp)100
pocket money and get Fr100,000 ... until they realise that a beer
costs Fr10,000!
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:50:19 -0500 (EST)
From: "Richard J. Pugh" <rjpugh@patriot.net>
Subject: Re: Wealth
On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> What I find interesting in this thread is the fact that no one has
> mentioned the exchange rate rules in TRAVELLER...
Aren't the monetary units for the major political groups largely
standardized? An Imperial Credit is pretty much the same everywhere you
go in the Imperium and environs.
At least, that's how it was in the last Traveller game. At the local
level, things varried a lot. In some border regions, like the Marches and
Reaver's Deep, barter operations were the norm.
Richard Pugh
(who never wrote his newbie essay, and probably never will. <grin>)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:58:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Unsubscribe
No. Drill Weekend. Can't come home to 652 email messages ... I'd
never get them all read. I'll be back Monday.
BTW, if I've unsubscribed, why am I still getting email?
- --- "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> wrote:
> Gerry Harris wrote:
> > Unsubscribe
>
> Was it something we said?
>
> Regards PLST
> (aka Stalin)
>
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" — Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1
**********************************************************************************************
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3786
***********************************
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3787
Date: | 3/9/01 5:09:05 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, March 9 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3787
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Unsubscribe
re: Intro
RE: Imperial and local currency
re: FNG....Hello folks
Newbie Essays
RE: FNG....Hello folks
Re: FNG....Hello folks
Re: Wealth
Re: Time shortage
Re: Newbie Essays
RE: dogs & humans
Re: 3D walkthroughs
RE: Unsubscribe
Re: 15mm Laserburn Troopers and Vehicles miniatures on Ebay
Re: Wealth
CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)
RE: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)
RE: FNG....Hello folks
Hello, and my apologies
RE: Hello, and my apologies
Breeds of Vargr IMTU
RE: FNG....Hello folks
Re: FNG....Hello folks
Re: Hello, and my apologies
Antaine's Newbie essay
Wow! 307 Beer logo. I'm gonna be *FAMOUS*!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:03:31 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Unsubscribe
We are the TML.
Resistance is futile.
You have been assimilated into the collective.
We have added your Biological and technological Distinctiveness to our own.
^_~
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: Gerry Harris [mailto:harrisgwjr@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 11:58 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Unsubscribe
No. Drill Weekend. Can't come home to 652 email messages ... I'd
never get them all read. I'll be back Monday.
BTW, if I've unsubscribed, why am I still getting email?
- --- "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> wrote:
> Gerry Harris wrote:
> > Unsubscribe
>
> Was it something we said?
>
> Regards PLST
> (aka Stalin)
>
=====
Gerry Harris
****************************************************************************
******************
Æther Traveller - http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion -
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
****************************************************************************
******************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" - Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act
3, Scene 1
****************************************************************************
******************
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:29:32 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Intro
>From: Jeff Hopper <jeff37923@yahoo.com>
> Now that I know what a newbie essay is, I accept your challenge Mr.
>Goffin.
That's the spirit!
> I ask for two things. First about a week to collect some real world data
>on radiation sickness beyond my nuke overview of 12 years ago.
There are no deadlines for this kind of thing.
>Second, the assistance of the TML members in constructive criticism when
>the rules draft is posted here.
That's what we do. I'm looking forward to reading, critiquing, and
eventually using your work.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:29 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: RE: Imperial and local currency
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCECMCNAA.carlino@home.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
In my opinion, Far Trader is making a serious error if it does not allow
for some form of funds transfer between worlds. There is no way the CrImp
can be accepted as a 'currency standard' unless it is possible.
I would have thought that funds transfer by means of a smart card would
have been perfectly feasible (at least, that's how it works IMTU).
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:31:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: FNG....Hello folks
>From: "Mycroft3" <mycroft3@earthlink.net>
>Hi everyone, I am a long time traveller fan, mostly a collector these
>days. Just stumbled over the list doing a client's search!
Where are you located? You know, some of us do actually play the game (a
lot of us, I think), and you might get invited.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail.
http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:39:35 -0500
From: "Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu>
Subject: Newbie Essays
<tongue-in-cheek>
OK, That's it!!! I've been on this list since 10/00 and I never
received my newbie essay assignment. Who do I forward my formal complaint
too? And it's not liked I've been invisible here, I've posted my share of
dumb questions...
Of course my big question is where do you fill out your qualifications
for essay assignments? As a student of cognitive & social experimental
psychology I doubt my talents cover any gear-head related material. Someone
really needs to keep up on this kind of stuff. Oh well back to lurking...
Anthony Colosetti
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 12:42:17 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: FNG....Hello folks
Collector, eh? May have something for you soon....
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Mycroft3
> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 10:13 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: FNG....Hello folks
>
>
> Hi everyone, I am a long time traveller fan, mostly a collector
> these days.
> Just stumbled over the list doing a client's search!
>
> I'll just shut up now and go back to lurking.
>
> Mycroft
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: FNG....Hello folks
In-Reply-To: <000201c0a8c4$9a2bec00$01c8c8c8@gig1>
Greetings Mycroft.
Welcome aboard! Enjoy...
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:44:32 -0000
From: "Mark S Peace" <mark.s.peace@dunelm.org.uk>
Subject: Re: Wealth
> OK, how is the situation handled if there is more than one form of
> "legal tender"? (I am hoping for an answer from those in Europe, who
> are in the process of changing to the Euro) Canon states that worlds
> have thier own currency. Can a shop keeper post a sign that he only
> accepts one but not the other? My example, was that in areas far from
> the sources of Imperial Currency that fewer shopkeepers would accept it
> (i.e. that it is harder for them to exchange it for things that they
> need or want). Can a shopkeeper post a notice that prices are in "local
> Cr" and that the exchange rate is 20CrImp to 1 "local Cr" when at the
> starport the exchange rate is 20 "local Cr" to 1 CrImp?
>
> Charles H
>
How about a few examples:
In the UK, the Bank of England prints English bank notes, but in Scotland
several banks print their own notes. Are these Scottish notes accepted in
English shops? Usually, but not always. When they are used they seem to be
taken out of circulation and presumably sent back to Scotland.
Next year (?) Euro notes will be issued in many countries (but not the UK).
Will we have to accept them? No, but I expect some shops will.
I believe that is many countries (particularly if there are problems with
inflation), people would rather have US dollars than their local currency.
I'm sure this would apply with CrImp on lots of worlds.
Mark.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:41:03 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Time shortage
At 10:42 AM 03/09/01 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>> As the Leonard Erickson Breeding Program waits in hushed anticipation...
>
>Sorry, neither of us is planning on having kids.
Who said you get a choice? We've studied at the National Zoo School of
Panda Lust to perfect our techniques! When the three metric tons of bamboo
show, accept delivery. Trust us, it seems to work wonders!
>If the program is willing to settle for a sperm donation, I'm *sure*
>she'd be glad to co-operate in helping me provide one. <g>
This is me being a good penguin and *not* going to any of the possible
destinations...
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:56:14 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays
At 03:39 PM 03/09/01 -0500, you wrote:
><tongue-in-cheek>
>
> OK, That's it!!! I've been on this list since 10/00 and I never
>received my newbie essay assignment. Who do I forward my formal complaint
>too? And it's not liked I've been invisible here, I've posted my share of
>dumb questions...
We apologize for the oversight.
> Of course my big question is where do you fill out your qualifications
>for essay assignments? As a student of cognitive & social experimental
>psychology I doubt my talents cover any gear-head related material. Someone
>really needs to keep up on this kind of stuff. Oh well back to lurking...
Your essay assignment: How do you complain to the Imperial Government?
What channels do the average citizens have to register they
opinion/gripes/schizophrenic delusions with an actual representative of the
Imperium?
As an example, how would citizens go about getting the Imperial Navy to
restrict the flight hours at a naval base's landing field?
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:57:18 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: RE: dogs & humans
> Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 08:11:18 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
> Subject: RE: dogs & humans
> FYI: a common missuse of the term "symbiosis" is to refer to a
> mutually beneficial relationship between two organisms. In fact,
> it means a very close relationship between two organisms. Thus,
> a tapeworm and its host are in a symbiotic relationship. When
> the interaction between two organisms is mutually beneficial, it
> is called a mutualism.
Mea Culpa.
In my defense I'm not sure mutualism was commonly in use when I was
learning the lingo (late seventies.) The way I learned it if the
relationship
was mutually benificial it was symbiotic if it was unilateraly benificial it
was
refered to as parasitic. Both situations described species in close
biological
contact and wouldn't in a strict sense be applied to the co-operative
relationship between humans and dogs but would pertain to the relationship
between humans and their intestinal bacteria.
So I was speaking imprecisely no matter how you look at it.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:17:09 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: 3D walkthroughs
<snip>
> Bruce Johnson
<snip>
> Regards PLST
> (aka Stalin)
Thanks. I forwarded your posts to the T5 board.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:23:53 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: RE: Unsubscribe
> Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 11:58:18 -0800 (PST)
> From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
> Subject: RE: Unsubscribe
>
> No. Drill Weekend. Can't come home to 652 email messages ... I'd
> never get them all read. I'll be back Monday.
>
> BTW, if I've unsubscribed, why am I still getting email?
Probably because you sent the request to the list instead of the list agent.
try this instead
> To unsubscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:
>
> unsubscribe traveller-digest
>
> in the body of a message to "traveller-request@lists.ient.com".
If you get the non-digest form substitute traveller for traveller-digest
in the message body.
Course you've probably already been inundated with replys to this already.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 12:19:49 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: 15mm Laserburn Troopers and Vehicles miniatures on Ebay
Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com> wrote
> Also, I recently put up a set of Keith Brothers Folio adventures but they
> sold right away. I mention it only because I scanned the covers and the
> artwork is cool.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=568098317
>
> Maybe I was dumb to accept $30 for it, because it went so fast.
I believe the last time I saw a set of these on Ebay they went for
$86 IIRC, although that may have been for a set of four. I would
suggest that before you sell stuff you rune an EBay search on
completed items to see what similar items sold for last time but
this feature does have a time limit so items that sold longer ago
will not show up.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:34:54 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Wealth
Mark S Peace wrote:
> I believe that is many countries (particularly if there are problems with
> inflation), people would rather have US dollars than their local currency.
> I'm sure this would apply with CrImp on lots of worlds.
Well, a number of South American countries are doing exactly that: adopting the US dollar as their official currency. Ecuador, I believe, was the latest.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:40:21 -0500 (EST)
From: "Richard J. Pugh" <rjpugh@patriot.net>
Subject: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)
Hi folks. One of the recent nose art rondells had a computer generated
woman holding a single, large flower. (As opposed to the color-cell
style one where she's superimposed over a pic of the moon and throwing a
bunch of flowers around). I've seen computer generated "people" like
that in many other places; there is an Internet run comic strip that uses
such cgi "people" (www.togetherwefall.com).
Could someone please tell me the program or programs that were used to
generate these "people?" I understand that there is a program out there
that stores a CGI "doll" that can be posed and clothed according to
whatever the user requires.
Please contact me personally, as this doesn't really apply to Traveller
per se. Thanks in advance,
Richard Pugh
(rjpugh@patriot.net)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:59:07 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)
The program is Poser. Last I knew, it was at version 4, which is pretty
damn useful :) There's a very large fan support base out there, and someone
who's truly mastered the program can turn out images where you CAN'T tell it
was done in Poser ;) Note that I include MYSELF in the group that that
can't do this. All my Poser stuff looks like Poser stuff :D
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Richard J. Pugh
> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 1:40 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)
>
>
>
> Hi folks. One of the recent nose art rondells had a computer generated
> woman holding a single, large flower. (As opposed to the color-cell
> style one where she's superimposed over a pic of the moon and throwing a
> bunch of flowers around). I've seen computer generated "people" like
> that in many other places; there is an Internet run comic strip that uses
> such cgi "people" (www.togetherwefall.com).
>
> Could someone please tell me the program or programs that were used to
> generate these "people?" I understand that there is a program out there
> that stores a CGI "doll" that can be posed and clothed according to
> whatever the user requires.
>
> Please contact me personally, as this doesn't really apply to Traveller
> per se. Thanks in advance,
>
>
> Richard Pugh
> (rjpugh@patriot.net)
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 18:02:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: FNG....Hello folks
Mycroft writes:
>Hi everyone, I am a long time traveller fan, mostly a collector these days.
>Just stumbled over the list doing a client's search!
>I'll just shut up now and go back to lurking.
Hi Mycroft. Welcome aboard.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:10:49 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Hello, and my apologies
Gentlemen,
Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the last few
weeks. I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil
delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st. I'm currently resting at a
relative's home with a few busted limbs. Walking lessons will begin in a
few weeks.
If I missed anything specifically directed to me, I am sorry. I'm ging
to try and stay subscribed fro now, but if I can't keep up, I'll unsubscribe
for the lenght of my recovery.
Have fun and play nice!
Larsen
P.S. Mr. Rancke-Madsen - Thank you so much for responding to my message.
It was very kind of you.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:18:46 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Hello, and my apologies
Damn Larsen!!! Makes my fire of September look like childs-play! Get well
soon my friend.
Very Best,
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 3:11 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Hello, and my apologies
>
>
> Gentlemen,
> Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the
> last few
> weeks. I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil
> delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st. I'm currently
> resting at a
> relative's home with a few busted limbs. Walking lessons will begin in a
> few weeks.
> If I missed anything specifically directed to me, I am
> sorry. I'm ging
> to try and stay subscribed fro now, but if I can't keep up, I'll
> unsubscribe
> for the lenght of my recovery.
> Have fun and play nice!
>
>
> Larsen
> P.S. Mr. Rancke-Madsen - Thank you so much for responding to my
> message.
> It was very kind of you.
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 17:31:31 -0600
From: "Shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
Subject: Breeds of Vargr IMTU
the wacky folks at Genassist actually attempted to uplift a chihuha
to sentience, the problem was this experiment was conducted on
the same planet where they were uplifting velociraptors...
with predictable results...burp!
on the other hand experiments with uplifting various terran
domestic cats, and a mutated german shepard named Ralph
proved very sucessful. then again the first all chihuha show was
held in an exhibition hall next to an all Maine Coon show... a fine
time was had by all but the rattmutts, there were no survivors.
I have a dainty little maine coon here who tilts the scales at over 35
pounds, and is almost 4 foot from nose to tail...
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 18:27:44 -0500
From: "Mycroft3" <mycroft3@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: FNG....Hello folks
I'll just plagerize someone elses!
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 1:17 PM
To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
Subject: RE: FNG....Hello folks
Shoundt have said anything Mycroft Now your going to get an Essay Assignment
8P
- -----Original Message-----
From: Mycroft3 [mailto:mycroft3@earthlink.net]
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 10:13 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: FNG....Hello folks
Hi everyone, I am a long time traveller fan, mostly a collector these days.
Just stumbled over the list doing a client's search!
I'll just shut up now and go back to lurking.
Mycroft
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:26:58 +0100
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: FNG....Hello folks
Mycroft3 wrote:
> I'll just plagerize someone elses!
No you won't. Each newbie gets his/her own assignment. And it seems that no one
has stepped forward to give you yours yet. I'll bite.
You assignment: Write an essay describing in scientific terms why jumpspace maps
onto a two-dimensional surface with discrete steps. You may not use Real World
(ie publishing) arguments.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:31:00 +0100
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Hello, and my apologies
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the last few
> weeks. I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil
> delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st. I'm currently resting at a
> relative's home with a few busted limbs. Walking lessons will begin in a
> few weeks.
From what my imagination conjures up, you are lucky to be typing at all. Sorry
to hear about this accident. Hope you get well soon...
How long do you expect to be rehabilitating?
> If I missed anything specifically directed to me, I am sorry. I'm ging
> to try and stay subscribed fro now, but if I can't keep up, I'll unsubscribe
> for the lenght of my recovery.
OK. Please notify us if you unsubscribe and when you resubscribe. We do care.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:35:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Antaine's Newbie essay
<Introduction>
In this essay I will be looking at the effect of the widely available nano technology on the Traveller Universe. I approached this by doing nano seconds of background research.
Hardware will be smaller
<Conclusion>
In conclusion, we can see that the overall effects will be far reaching and would involve a major rule rewrite for areas such as Starship design and construction.
<End>
Antaine.
~Geek code to follow~
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 16:59:30 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Wow! 307 Beer logo. I'm gonna be *FAMOUS*!
Or maybe not. Thanks to Doug Berry for turning me on to Tom Smiths
wonderful filk at http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/103/tom_smith.html.
After listening to "307 Ale" about a hundred times, I was finally inspired
to design a logo for it (ala "Scout Brew"). You can see the result at
http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/307ale (I'm going to re-use that beer
mug clipart to *death*.)
I sent e-mail to Tom this afternoon and offered it to him. He's already
replied and he *loves* it. It's like his "I Want My Music On Napster"
song; I'd love to be rich, but I'll settle for famous. :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3787
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3788
Date: | 3/10/01 2:11:20 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Saturday, March 10 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3788
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Wow! 307 Beer logo. I'm gonna be *FAMOUS*!
Re: Wow! 307 Beer logo. I'm gonna be *FAMOUS*!
Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)
Breeds of Vargr IMTU
Re: 3d Walkthroughs
Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
Re: Introduction
Re: Introduction
Jump-1 question
Re: Jump-1 question
Re: Jump-1 question
RE: Hello, and my apologies
Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3787
Re: Hello, and my apologies
Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
Astronomy Question
Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
Re: Hello, and my apologies
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 17:17:31 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Wow! 307 Beer logo. I'm gonna be *FAMOUS*!
ROFLMAO!!!! Outstanding!
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Mark F. Cook
> Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 5:00 PM
> To: Traveller Mail List
> Subject: Wow! 307 Beer logo. I'm gonna be *FAMOUS*!
>
>
> Or maybe not. Thanks to Doug Berry for turning me on to Tom Smiths
> wonderful filk at http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/103/tom_smith.html.
> After listening to "307 Ale" about a hundred times, I was finally inspired
> to design a logo for it (ala "Scout Brew"). You can see the result at
> http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/307ale (I'm going to re-use that beer
> mug clipart to *death*.)
>
> I sent e-mail to Tom this afternoon and offered it to him. He's already
> replied and he *loves* it. It's like his "I Want My Music On Napster"
> song; I'd love to be rich, but I'll settle for famous. :^)
>
> - Mark C.
>
> mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
> 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
> Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 17:22:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Wow! 307 Beer logo. I'm gonna be *FAMOUS*!
LMAO....think 307 ALE will sponsor my Traveller site when I finaly put one together?
Antaine.
~Geek code to follow~
- --- "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
> wrote:
>Or maybe not. Thanks to Doug Berry for turning me on to Tom Smiths
>wonderful filk at http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/103/tom_smith.html.
>After listening to "307 Ale" about a hundred times, I was finally inspired
>to design a logo for it (ala "Scout Brew"). You can see the result at
>http://www.ssgfx.com/traveller/307ale (I'm going to re-use that beer
>mug clipart to *death*.)
>
>I sent e-mail to Tom this afternoon and offered it to him. He's already
>replied and he *loves* it. It's like his "I Want My Music On Napster"
>song; I'd love to be rich, but I'll settle for famous. :^)
>
> - Mark C.
>
> mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
> 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
> Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 20:33:44 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
On 03/09/01 at 09:29 AM, mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson) said:
<snip>
>I'm sure the same sort of thing happens on planets in TRAVELLER.
>Just as in Europe, some nations have adopted the Euro and others
>have not, so planetary governments will be making choices about
>what constitutes legal tender... and traders decide what they will
>accept. For example, in my globetrotting, I have found few places
>that will not accept a US dollar (except in the Arab world!).
<snip>
>Imperial Law, I would imagine, requires the acceptance of CrImp as
>legal tender.
Yes, but what about outside the Imperium? Here exchange rates are
going to complicate the PC's lives..up to situations where a world
might simply reject the Crimp could happen.
However, I want to change the subject slightly...
Here's the situation. The PC's are in Reaver's Deep and have come
into possession of a "few million credits", and they are having no
trouble spending them where they are now. Now they wish to travel
to another world to "look at a ship" that might be a good buy. The
question that they are struggling with is how to transport their
new-found "wealth" from point A to point B?
A large strongbox filled with Crimps?
A Letter of Credit from one bank to another?
A bag of diamonds and Rigalian bloodstones?
A cargo hold filled with trade goods?
A portfolio of megacorporate bearer bonds?
I suspect they could use some suggestions on how to proceed from the
collective wisdom of the TML.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:51:57 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)
"Richard J. Pugh" <rjpugh@patriot.net> writes:
>Hi folks. One of the recent nose art rondells had a computer generated
>woman holding a single, large flower. (As opposed to the color-cell
>style one where she's superimposed over a pic of the moon and throwing a
>bunch of flowers around). I've seen computer generated "people" like
>that in many other places; there is an Internet run comic strip that uses
>such cgi "people" (www.togetherwefall.com).
>Could someone please tell me the program or programs that were used to
>generate these "people?" I understand that there is a program out there
>that stores a CGI "doll" that can be posed and clothed according to
>whatever the user requires.
The software used is called Poser. For more details try:
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/3D/Poser.html
http://www.curiouslabs.com/
http://www.renderosity.com/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
urbin@bigfoot.com http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ Opinions Mine!
"Treeware" - Manuals and documentation.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:57:22 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Breeds of Vargr IMTU
Shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net> puts into the Ether:
[snip]
>on the other hand experiments with uplifting various terran
>domestic cats, and a mutated german shepard named Ralph
>proved very sucessful.
Would this be the famous German Police dog Ralph Von WuWu
>then again the first all chihuha show was
>held in an exhibition hall next to an all Maine Coon show... a fine
>time was had by all but the rattmutts, there were no survivors.
Hmm...smart Raccoons. You can latch onto Bruce Sterling's collection of
shorts called "Globalhead", do so.
There is a great short in there called "Our Neural Chernobyl."
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:05:49 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: 3d Walkthroughs
On 03/08/01 at 03:33 PM, "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com> said:
>Over in the T5 forum somebody is asking about 3D walkthroughs. I
>seem to recal somebody talking about some of these a while ago.
>Maybe still on the net somewhere.
>The discusion thread is in the Fleet section of the Citizens of the
>Imperium at Marc's site.
T5 forum? Where's that?
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 22:09:58 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
Was written:
>Here's the situation. The PC's are in Reaver's Deep and have come
>into possession of a "few million credits", and they are having no
>trouble spending them where they are now. Now they wish to travel
>to another world to "look at a ship" that might be a good buy. The
>question that they are struggling with is how to transport their
>new-found "wealth" from point A to point B?
>
>A large strongbox filled with Crimps?
>
>A Letter of Credit from one bank to another?
>
>A bag of diamonds and Rigalian bloodstones?
>
>A cargo hold filled with trade goods?
>
>A portfolio of megacorporate bearer bonds?
Drugs lots and lots of drugs, antiagathics etc., the market is out there...
Dan
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 19:30:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
- --- eris@pcola.gulf.net
> wrote:
>
>However, I want to change the subject slightly...
>The question that they are struggling with is how to transport their
>new-found "wealth" from point A to point B?
>
>A large strongbox filled with Crimps?
>
>A Letter of Credit from one bank to another?
>
>A bag of diamonds and Rigalian bloodstones?
>
>A cargo hold filled with trade goods?
>
>A portfolio of megacorporate bearer bonds?
>
>I suspect they could use some suggestions on how to proceed from the
>collective wisdom of the TML.
OK....depending on Law levels here, IMTU Black Market items are always a good idea even if stashed away for "emegencies". So what about Speculative Arms Dealing? Speculative Space Vehicle dealings? Maybe a barter option for the ship in question with a ship the owner would need?
Hope this helps.
Antaine.
~Geek code to follow~
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:39:39 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
On 03/09/01 at 10:09 PM, "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net> said:
>>Here's the situation. The PC's are in Reaver's Deep and have come
>>into possession of a "few million credits", and they are having no
>>trouble spending them where they are now. Now they wish to travel
>>to another world to "look at a ship" that might be a good buy. The
>>question that they are struggling with is how to transport their
>>new-found "wealth" from point A to point B?
>Drugs lots and lots of drugs, antiagathics etc., the market is out
>there...
LOL! Well, they'll be passing though a system that produces a "spice" that is addictive and narcotic to Aslan.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:54:34 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: Introduction
On 03/07/01 at 04:07 AM, Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net> said:
>I am a CT player and once I am back into the groove so to speak,
>I'll be running a game or two. I have to face the huge challenge
>now of finding some people for face to face gaming. Any Aussies in
>NSW feel free to e-mail me off-list and maybe we can arrange
>something.
Welcome!
Drop by my website, listed below, and check the Traveller Roster. I think there are some NSW folks listed.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 20:05:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Introduction
Thanks, I have bookmarked it for a detailed perusal!
Antaine.
~Geek code to follow~
- --- eris@pcola.gulf.net
> wrote:
>On 03/07/01 at 04:07 AM, Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net> said:
>
>>I am a CT player and once I am back into the groove so to speak,
>>I'll be running a game or two. I have to face the huge challenge
>>now of finding some people for face to face gaming. Any Aussies in
>>NSW feel free to e-mail me off-list and maybe we can arrange
>>something.
>
>Welcome!
>
>Drop by my website, listed below, and check the Traveller Roster. I think there are some NSW folks listed.
>
>Eris
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
>-----------------------------------------------------------
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 22:32:12 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Jump-1 question
Some time back it was mentioned/suggested that Jump-1 drives could, as
'outdated tech', could be discounted from it's base listed cost. This
sounded like a good idea to me, and I thought I had saved the message,
but evidently I hadn't. Can anyone remember what this said hypothetical
discount would be?
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:30:31 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Jump-1 question
At 10:32 PM 3/9/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>Some time back it was mentioned/suggested that Jump-1 drives could, as
>'outdated tech', could be discounted from it's base listed cost. This
>sounded like a good idea to me, and I thought I had saved the message,
>but evidently I hadn't. Can anyone remember what this said hypothetical
>discount would be?
>
>
>Perry
>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
Hello Perry,
The discounted value you are looking to "remember" is 50% as per GURPS
SPACE and in some respects, GURPS VEHICLES...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:37:26 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: Jump-1 question
On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:30:31 -0800 hal@buffnet.net writes:
> At 10:32 PM 3/9/2001 -0500, you wrote:
> >Some time back it was mentioned/suggested that Jump-1 drives could,
> as
> >'outdated tech', could be discounted from it's base listed cost.
> This
> >sounded like a good idea to me, and I thought I had saved the
> message,
> >but evidently I hadn't. Can anyone remember what this said
> hypothetical
> >discount would be?
> >
> >
> >Perry
> >"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
>
> Hello Perry,
> The discounted value you are looking to "remember" is 50% as per
> GURPS
> SPACE and in some respects, GURPS VEHICLES...
>
> Hal
Thanks for the info. I'll discount the price for the fat trader the
players will be using in my upsoming CT campaign.
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:51:19 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: RE: Hello, and my apologies
Larsen wrote:
>Gentlemen,
> Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the last few
>weeks. I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil
>delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st. I'm currently resting at
a
>relative's home with a few busted limbs. Walking lessons will begin in a
>few weeks.
> If I missed anything specifically directed to me, I am sorry. I'm
ging
>to try and stay subscribed fro now, but if I can't keep up, I'll
unsubscribe
>for the lenght of my recovery.
> Have fun and play nice!
Hey Larsen!
Sorry to hear that you were involved in a serious accident. I sincerely
wish you a quick and pleasant recovery, and I hope that you're back on your
feet (figuratively and literally) as soon as possible.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 18:14:28 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
On 9 Mar 2001, at 20:33, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:
> Here's the situation. The PC's are in Reaver's Deep and have come
> into possession of a "few million credits", and they are having no
> trouble spending them where they are now. Now they wish to travel
> to another world to "look at a ship" that might be a good buy. The
> question that they are struggling with is how to transport their
> new-found "wealth" from point A to point B?
> A large strongbox filled with Crimps?
> A Letter of Credit from one bank to another?
> A bag of diamonds and Rigalian bloodstones?
> A cargo hold filled with trade goods?
> A portfolio of megacorporate bearer bonds?
> I suspect they could use some suggestions on how to proceed from the
> collective wisdom of the TML.
Any and all of the above would work. I'd imagine the LoC from two
corresponding banks would be the most common (this method is used
nowadays for international trade), followed by the megacorp bearer bonds.
The currency/high value items (gems/stamps/works of art etc) has the
disadvantage of being more vunerable to theft and bulky. The trade goods
also has these disadvantages (even more so in bulk) *and* has the
additional disadvantage of being of variable value at the destination.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 00:11:00 -0500
From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3787
>Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:10:49 -0000
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Hello, and my apologies
>
>Gentlemen,
> Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the last few
>weeks. I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil
>delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st. I'm currently resting at a
>relative's home with a few busted limbs. Walking lessons will begin in a
>few weeks.
Oh, good heavens! Let me add my voice to other's and wish you a very
speedy recovery, Mr. Whipsnade! Our best wishes go out to you!
- ---
==============================================================
Jonathan McDermott http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@
- ------------------------------------------------------------
"Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."
-Steve Wozniak
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:45:14 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Hello, and my apologies
On Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:10:49 -0000, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Gentlemen,
> Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the last few
>weeks. I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil
>delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st. I'm currently resting at a
>relative's home with a few busted limbs. Walking lessons will begin in a
>few weeks.
><SNIP>
Being a resident of the (lately) slightly less frozen north, I'm all
too familiar with the sort of hazards you are alluding to.
Pay attention to those walking lessons; you will be surprised how much
abused muscles can hurt when you try to accommodate your new mobility
restrictions.
Though I've never been rendered inoperative to your degree, I have had
the opportunity to closely inspect the undercarriage of a bus in an
unanticipated moment.
> If I missed anything specifically directed to me, I am sorry. I'm ging
>to try and stay subscribed fro now, but if I can't keep up, I'll unsubscribe
>for the lenght of my recovery.
If you are anticipating moving more to a read-only mode, I commend to
you the advantages of the digest version of our mailing list. Only
two to four largish collections of posts per day which can be printed
and browsed from recumbent comfort.
Our best regards to you and hopes for a speedy recovery.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 23:45:29 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:35:39 -0800 (PST), Antaine
<Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net> wrote:
><Introduction>
>
>In this essay I will be looking at the effect of the widely available
>nano technology on the Traveller Universe. I approached this by doing
>nano seconds of background research.
>
>
>
>Hardware will be smaller
>
><Conclusion>
>
>In conclusion, we can see that the overall effects will be far
>reaching and would involve a major rule rewrite for areas such as
>Starship design and construction.
>
><End>
>
>Antaine.
Had the list known that you were a poet and gifted with the ability to
illustrate complex issues in so few words, the bar would have
originally been set much higher.
Please restate your above findings in the form of (at your option)
haiku, sonnet or limerick.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 23:25:56 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Astronomy Question
I'm doing some setting work involving either an open or globular star
cluster. I've a few questions for folks with more astronomy
background that I:
1) I know the approximate figures for globular clusters, but I'm
wondering how many stars are in a large open cluster and how
much closer than average they are?
2) On a related note, I've read that there are on average 100,000
starts in a globular cluster and they are on average 100-1000 x
closer together. Does that mean the distance between stars is 100-
100 x less or that there are 100 - 1000 x as many star in a cubic
parsec.
3) The sky would look very different inside a star cluster. About
how bright would it be? How many orders of magnitude of
brightness separate a clear moonless night, a clear night with a full
moon, a cloudy day, and a bright sunny day.
Would a clear moonless night in a globular cluster be (say where
stars were 100 x closer) look like a bight sunny day, a clear
moonlit night, or something in between?
Many Thanks-
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 02:04:45 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
- --- JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
> wrote:
>
>Had the list known that you were a poet and gifted with the ability to
>illustrate complex issues in so few words, the bar would have
>originally been set much higher.
>
>Please restate your above findings in the form of (at your option)
>haiku, sonnet or limerick.
>
>--
>JR Holmes
>jrholmes@wi.rr.com
Happy to:
There was a smart man named Miller,
Who designed a universe called Traveller.
We 'travelled' sublime,
but our science has grown,
now nano means it's much smaller.
Antaine.
~Geek code to follow~
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 10:09 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Hello, and my apologies
In-Reply-To: <F226eek8IpTfmetJUkw00009a51@hotmail.com>
Greetings dear hearts, especially Mr Whipsnade.
Oh dear :-(
Thought you had been quiet of late. Big (but gentle) hug and every good
wish for a speedy recovery.
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3788
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3789
Date: | 3/10/01 3:17:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Saturday, March 10 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3789
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
Re: Newbie Essays
Re: Hello, and my apologies
Re: 3d Walkthroughs
GURPS Traveller Shipyard question
Re: 3d Walkthroughs
Re: 3d Walkthroughs
Re: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question
Re: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)
Re: Wealth
Re: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question
Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
Re: Jump-1 question
RE: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question
RE: Hello, and my apologies
Vac Suits and air pressure
RE: Imperial and local currency
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 21:28:51 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
Antaine wrote:
> --- JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >Had the list known that you were a poet and gifted with the ability to
> >illustrate complex issues in so few words, the bar would have
> >originally been set much higher.
> >
> >Please restate your above findings in the form of (at your option)
> >haiku, sonnet or limerick.
> >
> >--
> >JR Holmes
> >jrholmes@wi.rr.com
>
> Happy to:
>
> There was a smart man named Miller,
> Who designed a universe called Traveller.
> We 'travelled' sublime,
> but our science has grown,
> now nano means it's much smaller.
>
<GROAN> <SPLORT>
a hit! a palpable hit!
Other Rob
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 02:30:06 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
See what you get when you let a Grunt loose on a mailing list.....LOL
- --- Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
> wrote:
>
><GROAN> <SPLORT>
>
>a hit! a palpable hit!
>
>Other Rob
See what you get when you let a Grunt loose on a mailing list.....LOL
Antaine.
~Geek code to follow~
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:18:04 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays
Anthony wrote:
><tongue-in-cheek>
>
> OK, That's it!!! I've been on this list since 10/00 and I never
>received my newbie essay assignment. Who do I forward my formal
complaint
>too? And it's not liked I've been invisible here, I've posted my share
of
>dumb questions...
> Of course my big question is where do you fill out your
qualifications
>for essay assignments? As a student of cognitive & social experimental
>psychology I doubt my talents cover any gear-head related material.
Someone
>really needs to keep up on this kind of stuff. Oh well back to
lurking...
If you fill out that form, Then we are required to set the newby essay
in a field in which you have no qualifications. You are supposed to
give information freely in the fields that you are qualified in.
</tongue-in-cheek>
Charles
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 04:50:45 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Hello, and my apologies
At 11:10 PM 03/09/01 -0000, you wrote:
> Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the last few
>weeks. I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil
>delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st. I'm currently resting at a
>relative's home with a few busted limbs. Walking lessons will begin in a
>few weeks.
Yikes! I'd have a word of to with the Referee over that "adventure."
> If I missed anything specifically directed to me, I am sorry. I'm ging
>to try and stay subscribed fro now, but if I can't keep up, I'll unsubscribe
>for the lenght of my recovery.
Health first, Traveller second. Trust me on this.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:36:00 -0500
From: Gordon Hundley <drgoon@netaxs.com>
Subject: Re: 3d Walkthroughs
on 9/3/01 10:05 pm, eris@pcola.gulf.net at eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:
>> The discusion thread is in the Fleet section of the Citizens of the
>> Imperium at Marc's site.
>
> T5 forum? Where's that?
http://www.farfuture.net/cgi-bin/Trav/ixs/Ultimate.cgi
[Random thought: maybe it would be neat to gateway all the open
Traveller-related lists and web fora into a single NNTP server with extended
archiving. I like skimming through the SJG fora using UseNet tools]
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 09:25:05 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question
I've been having a lot of fun with this program, and have just pulled down
the modules from the Starships playtest page.
Question is, how do I add the new modules? The documentation isn't too
clear, at least to me.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:53:17 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: 3d Walkthroughs
> Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 21:05:49 -0600
> From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
> Subject: Re: 3d Walkthroughs
<snip>
> T5 forum? Where's that?
>
> Eris
It's the Citizens of the Imperium section of Marc's site.
www.farfuture.net In the left hand frame click on jumpoints and
scroll a bit. It's the first option after jumpoints. It was announced
to the list a few weeks ago to tepid response (do we really need
another discusion group?) There is of course much more being
discussed than T5 but it's got a definite bent in that direction.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:35:53 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: 3d Walkthroughs
On 03/10/01 at 01:53 PM, "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com> said:
>> T5 forum? Where's that?
>> Eris
>It's the Citizens of the Imperium section of Marc's site.
Thanks, I found it.
>www.farfuture.net In the left hand frame click on jumpoints and
>scroll a bit. It's the first option after jumpoints.
>It was
>announced to the list a few weeks ago to tepid response (do we
>really need another discusion group?) There is of course much more
>being discussed than T5 but it's got a definite bent in that
>direction.
So, I see. Well, *do* we really need another discussion group? <g>
The problem I have with web based systems is the messages aren't
delivered to your mailbox, you have to remember go look, and in most
cases, I can't tell what I've read and what I haven't. <shrug>
IAC, from a read-through of the posts in the T5 forum, it looks like
Marc is still working on T5. Technically, it's still about where it
was last time he said much about it here...modified T4 task and
character generation systems, initial setting M200, with "multiple
entry points" planned for later. The "life pursuits" have been
mentioned here...I think...but it looks like Marc is really high on
that concept. One new thing that I noticed, and if I have this
wrong sorry, was that Marc intends to keep CT in publication even
after T5 is released..simple version vs advanced version.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:50:53 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question
On 03/10/01 at 09:25 AM, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> said:
>I've been having a lot of fun with this program, and have just
>pulled down the modules from the Starships playtest page.
Same here. I've even run up the same ship using HG2, FFS and GTS (600 dton Liner) and compared the results...pretty close.
>Question is, how do I add the new modules? The documentation isn't
>too clear, at least to me.
What I did was modify some existing modules, rather than add
completely new ones.
Is Tom Bont on the TML? <g> I'd love to petition him for some
additions to his html and spreadsheet output. I suspect he's been
pretty busy with other things, so I haven't pestered him about it
yet.
Oh, and I *still* think Loren is wrong on the "power slice" issue!
I was a good boy, though, and shut up once it was clear he wasn't
going to let Rob and Tom change that. <g>
However, I still want to have a repository of "sliceless modules"
for GTS!
I also would really, *really* like to see the various modules
deconstructed into their VE3 components. I can't really gearhead
new ones, or correct modify existing ones unitl I know how they were
constructed. ;-< I know something like that couldn't be in the
book, but it would be nice if there was a link to a file somewhere.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:26:13 -0500
From: "Mike Peters" <Travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)
Richard,
As an addition to Jesse's information you can pick up a lot of information,
as well as art galleries and freebies, from www.RENDEROSITY.com, there are
also numerous links to other sites. Poser 4 (actualy 4.03) and he new add-on
Poser Pro Pak are produced by Curious Labs at www.curiouslabs.com. The next
to last iteration of the program, Poser 3 is also available on several
Brittish published magazines (however Curious labs doen't recognize the free
editions for upgrades). Check out www.3dworld.com or www.computerarts.co.uk
for the availability of back issues.
Enjoy
Mike
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 4:59 PM
Subject: RE: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)
> The program is Poser. Last I knew, it was at version 4, which is pretty
> damn useful :) There's a very large fan support base out there, and
someone
> who's truly mastered the program can turn out images where you CAN'T tell
it
> was done in Poser ;) Note that I include MYSELF in the group that that
> can't do this. All my Poser stuff looks like Poser stuff :D
>
> Jesse
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Richard J. Pugh
> > Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 1:40 PM
> > To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> > Subject: CGI "people" (related to nose art thread)
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi folks. One of the recent nose art rondells had a computer generated
> > woman holding a single, large flower. (As opposed to the color-cell
> > style one where she's superimposed over a pic of the moon and throwing a
> > bunch of flowers around). I've seen computer generated "people" like
> > that in many other places; there is an Internet run comic strip that
uses
> > such cgi "people" (www.togetherwefall.com).
> >
> > Could someone please tell me the program or programs that were used to
> > generate these "people?" I understand that there is a program out there
> > that stores a CGI "doll" that can be posed and clothed according to
> > whatever the user requires.
> >
> > Please contact me personally, as this doesn't really apply to Traveller
> > per se. Thanks in advance,
> >
> >
> > Richard Pugh
> > (rjpugh@patriot.net)
> >
> >
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 11:34:30 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Wealth
"Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com> wrote
> Peter Newman writes:
> >Let me try to make myself clear. Traveller is a role playing
> >game. The question I am asking is "Suppose that the players go
> >into the only bar on a low population planet within the Imperium
> >and order a drink. The bartender requires payment in advance. For
> >some strange and illogical reason of his own he will not take Imperial
> >credits as payment, despite the fact that he could spend them easily.
> >Can the characters get Imperial law enforcement agents to make
> >the bartender take their credits or are they S.O.L.?"
> >The question I am asking is not if Imperial credits are generally
> >accepted, the question I am asking is "Must Imperial credits,
> >as a matter of law, be accepted?"
> I have to honestly say that I'm surprised at this question. Is there any
> legitimate government is existence that does not require business (and
> citizens for that matter) within its boarders not to accept its currency?
IANAL but my understanding is that in many countries you have
to take their money in payment of a debt but you don't have to
sell to people just because they will pay in cash.
Therefore if I take my car in to be have it's oil changed and
they tell be before they start that it will be $30 and I say yes
they have to take my $30 US cash. If on the other hand they say
that they don't do oil changes for mere money and that they want
an hour of my time tutoring their kids instead that that's OK.
> As
> a matter of fact the refusal of a person to take the currency of his own
> country is usually a sign that the government is near collapse, i.e. the
> persons involved feel that the currency will become worthless.
If people in general behave this way, maybe - If only a few people
behave this way than no.
OTOH it may be not that their currency is bad but merely that another
currency is better. Therefore I would not be surprised if a few
client states had their own currency but defacto used the CrImp
since most places preferred it to their own currency.
> Now I know that there were times in history when people could refuse to take
> script, and insist on gold or silver. I don't think that situation applies
> here, since the Imperium does not use a back currency.
In some campaigns the CrImp might be (partially) backed by Iridium.
Maybe the Iridium Throne is not merely a symbol.
> The best example of how the CrImp might work is the example of the U.S.
> dollar, not in the U.S., but overseas. I've traveled all over the world. In
> a pinch, in almost every place, I could find someone who would take the U.S.
> dollar, Many time the worst shape the local government
> was in or the worst their relationship was with the U.S. government, the
> more anxious they were to accept the dollar.
That's sort of what I'm thinking.
> To get back to your bar: If the bar is in the starport, I'd say he'd have
> to take the CrImps. They person to complain to wouldn't be security. The
> PC's would have to lodge a complaint with the Starport Authority, who would
> probably consider this a lease violation, and out his business would go. If
> it was in town, I'd say he just doesn't want off world business.
Right. The question I'm asking is if the Imperium is OK with that.
Suppose you're an Imperial Marine, paid in Imperial Credits,
and you've just gotten a well deserved leave. If the bar or brothel
won't take them you're going to be pissed off. OTOH maybe you
were just dumb not to have changed some of your pay (Imperial
troops are canonically paid in cash) for local money and should
be S.O.L.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 14:42:58 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question
On 03/10/01 at 09:25 AM, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> said:
>I've been having a lot of fun with this program, and have just
>pulled down the modules from the Starships playtest page.
Dag-nab-it!
After saying good things about GTS, I decided to play a little with
it. I have the latest version on my system at work (for use *only*
during lunch ;-). Here at home, I have an older version, so I went
to Tom's site to grab 2.29.08.
Problem! I can't get it to download!!! With both IE and NS, I get
64k of the file and the download stops. I've tried with two ISP's
and two browsers, and it dies at the same spot everytime...rats!!!
Is that happening to anyone else, or am I the only unlucky one?
Well, anyway, could someone, send me the latest GTS.zip as a file
attachment? Hum...maybe I shouldn't ask the list that, I might get
a hundred copies. What the hey! I'm going to ask. <g>
BTW, the older version is working just fine here, but it wouldn't
read the newest Repository. That's when I realized I'd never dl'ed
the newer version of the program.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:26:38 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 02:04:45 -0800 (PST), Antaine
<Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net> wrote:
>--- JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>> wrote:
>
>>
>>Had the list known that you were a poet and gifted with the ability to
>>illustrate complex issues in so few words, the bar would have
>>originally been set much higher.
>>
>>Please restate your above findings in the form of (at your option)
>>haiku, sonnet or limerick.
>>
>>--
>>JR Holmes
>>jrholmes@wi.rr.com
>
>Happy to:
>
>There was a smart man named Miller,
>Who designed a universe called Traveller.
>We 'travelled' sublime,
>but our science has grown,
>now nano means it's much smaller.
Though I can't argue with the quality of your conclusions, I find your
scansion and rhyming deficient. In what way do "sublime" and "grown"
rhyme? And it takes a considerable mangling to make the scansion of
the second line work.
Such is the pain of choosing a limerick as your form of expression.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 08:47:25 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Jump-1 question
>From: knightsky@juno.com
>Subject: Jump-1 question
>
>Some time back it was mentioned/suggested that Jump-1 drives could, as
>'outdated tech', could be discounted from it's base listed cost. This
>sounded like a good idea to me, and I thought I had saved the message,
>but evidently I hadn't. Can anyone remember what this said hypothetical
>discount would be?
>
>
>Perry
>"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
That would probably have been me.
The easiest way to do it (and explain to your players that you may have to retrospectively rule
'temporary market conditions' if they find a too-nice way to rort it) is to rule that the Imperial Credit is a
TL11 currency.
Goods produced at below TL11 get a 20% discount on their 'sticker cost' per TL. A jump-1 drive is
therefore available for roughly 60% of the 'sticker cost', if you pay Imperial Credits (it's a TL9 device,
and is therefore at sticker price 0.8^2) .
Goods produced at above TL11 get a 20% increase in their sticker cost per TL. A TL15 fusion plant
will therefore cost about 190% of it's sticker cost (1.2^4).
Remember that spare parts may cost more than this - there isnt that much demand for TL15 spare
parts in District 268, so you might gouge them for everything you can get.
You will need to adjust the price of jump-1 transport, but remember that a jump-1 freighter will probably
not be all TL9 components - it will probably need a set of TL11 thruster plates, and if it wants to avoid
a fission power plant it will probably want a TL12 small fusion plant.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:53:36 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question
On 03/10/01 at 09:25 AM, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> said:
>
>>I've been having a lot of fun with this program, and have just
>>pulled down the modules from the Starships playtest page.
>
>Dag-nab-it!
>
>After saying good things about GTS, I decided to play a little with
>it. I have the latest version on my system at work (for use *only*
>during lunch ;-). Here at home, I have an older version, so I went
>to Tom's site to grab 2.29.08.
>
>Problem! I can't get it to download!!! With both IE and NS, I get
>64k of the file and the download stops. I've tried with two ISP's
>and two browsers, and it dies at the same spot everytime...rats!!!
>
>Is that happening to anyone else, or am I the only unlucky one?
>
>Well, anyway, could someone, send me the latest GTS.zip as a file
>attachment? Hum...maybe I shouldn't ask the list that, I might get
>a hundred copies. What the hey! I'm going to ask. <g>
>
>BTW, the older version is working just fine here, but it wouldn't
>read the newest Repository. That's when I realized I'd never dl'ed
>the newer version of the program.
>
>Eris
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
>-----------------------------------------------------------
I passed a question to Tom last week and he hasn't answered yet, which is
not like him. So I suppose he's still busy working on GT:Starships and
hasn't had time to keep up with the list.
I'll take a shot at answering both questions.
Question 1: Load the new module file by Opening Repository. Find the
repository file and open it. Modules already included in the ship will
remain, but a new set of modules will be displayed in the lower module
listing section, but only after you click on a different subsystem. In other
words if your in the Engine:Jump module listing section you must click on
Accommodations section before you'll see the new modules, for some reason
they don't update in the listing you've already selected. You can choose
modules from any number of repositories for the same ship.
Question 2: Tom has previously stated that because he's on @Home.com his
files sometimes don't download properly. I think that it has something to do
with the way @Home.com handles its files. The only fix is to keep trying.
Eventually the file will download in its entirety. Not a very good answer
for those who pay by the minute or have slow access, I'm afraid. It took me
a couple of tries to get the file to download last time I updated, and I'm
on @Home.com myself. (You would think that all the traffic would be along
their own backbone and so have fewer problems.) All I can say is the
programs really worth it.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 17:58:46 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Hello, and my apologies
Good luck on you recovery. I highly recommend moving to the digest version.
You can print it out and read it while in bed. Very entertaining if you're
not going to be spending time answering anyway, any you get only two to five
a day instead of 75 emails, which can be tedious to peruse if it's
uncomfortable to sit up.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2001 6:11 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Hello, and my apologies
Gentlemen,
Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the last few
weeks. I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil
delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st. I'm currently resting at a
relative's home with a few busted limbs. Walking lessons will begin in a
few weeks.
If I missed anything specifically directed to me, I am sorry. I'm ging
to try and stay subscribed fro now, but if I can't keep up, I'll unsubscribe
for the lenght of my recovery.
Have fun and play nice!
Larsen
P.S. Mr. Rancke-Madsen - Thank you so much for responding to my message.
It was very kind of you.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 16:56:38 -0500
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Vac Suits and air pressure
A question for Rob O'Connor, Leonard, and any space buffs out there:
I understand that NASA EVA suits, being non-rigid, have to operate at
a low air pressure -- if they pumped them up to a full atmosphere,
they would be inflexible, puffed up like balloons. IIRC they use
something like 15 or 20% of normal air pressure. And this requires
the astronauts to do pure-oxygen pre-breathing for hours prior to
exiting the ship -- to avoid getting the bends, if I'm not mistaken.
But AFAIK, this problem has never been dealt with in any version of
Traveller. Even Greg Porter's rules for Getting In and Out of
Spacesuits (CSC p.16) makes no mention of pre-breathing time, nor
does he mention what pressure his listed EVA suits use. Perhaps the
suits are rigid (or, at high TLs, made of rigidifying smart materials
that flex at the joints), and thus operate at or near a full
atmosphere pressure. But what about the cheaper "space baggy" suits?
These should require pre-breathing time, yes?
Question is, how much pre-breathing is required? I suppose this
would depend on the suit's pressure, which in turn would depend on
its TL and cost.
And what effects would PCs suffer when they have to suit up in a
hurry as the ship rapidly decompresses from a major hit?
Anybody got rules to cover this?
Thanks in advance,
+GMG+
- --
Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
"How come if we can send a man to the Moon,
we can't send a man to the Moon anymore?"
--Cmdr Rick, _Prisoners of Gravity_
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 18:11:26 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial and local currency
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNCECMCNAA.carlino@home.com>
>Greetings dear hearts.
>
>In my opinion, Far Trader is making a serious error if it does not allow
>for some form of funds transfer between worlds. There is no way the CrImp
>can be accepted as a 'currency standard' unless it is possible.
>
>I would have thought that funds transfer by means of a smart card would
>have been perfectly feasible (at least, that's how it works IMTU).
>
>Hugs and kisses,
>
>Mexal.
I believe the authors were going for the Nineteenth Century letter of credit
feel. Sure your PC might have 54 MCr at the bank in Glisten, but unless
she's made arrangements through Hortelez et Cie or another bank when she
gets to Muan Gwi all she'll have is the clothes on her back and whatever
credits she's got in her luggage. It won't be just a matter of going up to a
bank and arranging an electronic transfer.
That would have limit use anyway. Even if the banks are in the same sector
it could take months for the transfer information to get from one bank to
the other. Even for worlds 1 jump apart on an XBoat route it's still a
minimum of 2 weeks to find out a check didn't clear. Would you accept a
check from an off-worlder drawn on a bank on another planet, knowing that
the person could be parsecs away by the time his bank told you he was
overdrawn?
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3789
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3790
Date: | 3/11/01 5:37:39 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Sunday, March 11 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3790
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Wealth
Re: Vac Suits and air pressure
Re: Vac Suits and air pressure
RE: Imperial and local currency
RE: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question
Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
GURPS Traveller Shipyard question
Re: Wealth
Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
Re: Crusades of the Future
Re: Cutter Books
Re: Wealth
Re: Newbie Essays
Re: Jump-1 question
Heinlein honored by the USNA!
Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
Re: Newbie Essays
Re : Vac suits and air pressure
Re: Time shortage
Re: Astronomy Question
Subject: RE: Imperial and local currency
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 18:29:40 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Wealth
>
>> To get back to your bar: If the bar is in the starport, I'd say he'd
have
>> to take the CrImps. They person to complain to wouldn't be security. The
>> PC's would have to lodge a complaint with the Starport Authority, who
would
>> probably consider this a lease violation, and out his business would go.
If
>> it was in town, I'd say he just doesn't want off world business.
>
>Right. The question I'm asking is if the Imperium is OK with that.
>Suppose you're an Imperial Marine, paid in Imperial Credits,
>and you've just gotten a well deserved leave. If the bar or brothel
>won't take them you're going to be pissed off. OTOH maybe you
>were just dumb not to have changed some of your pay (Imperial
>troops are canonically paid in cash) for local money and should
>be S.O.L.
As were many of the American Sailors I've known, who on their first
deployment, assumed that they locals would take dollars, based on the fact
that the brothels in T.J. did when they were on liberty from San Diego Navy
Base. (The only other time they had every been outside the U.S.)
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 15:53:03 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Vac Suits and air pressure
Glenn Grant <neo@total.net> wrote:
> A question for Rob O'Connor, Leonard, and any space buffs out there:
>
> I understand that NASA EVA suits, being non-rigid, have to operate at
> a low air pressure -- if they pumped them up to a full atmosphere,
> they would be inflexible, puffed up like balloons. IIRC they use
> something like 15 or 20% of normal air pressure. And this requires
> the astronauts to do pure-oxygen pre-breathing for hours prior to
> exiting the ship -- to avoid getting the bends, if I'm not mistaken.
>
> But AFAIK, this problem has never been dealt with in any version of
> Traveller. Even Greg Porter's rules for Getting In and Out of
> Spacesuits (CSC p.16) makes no mention of pre-breathing time, nor does
> he mention what pressure his listed EVA suits use. Perhaps the suits
> are rigid (or, at high TLs, made of rigidifying smart materials that
> flex at the joints), and thus operate at or near a full atmosphere
> pressure. But what about the cheaper "space baggy" suits? These
> should require pre-breathing time, yes?
I always assumed that Traveller suits were either:
1) Smart materials that could maintain full pressure and bend at
the joints. I would assume these would only exist at TL 12+
2) (Cooler and even more likely, even at TL 10+) space suits were
the skin-tight suits I've run across in various SF stories (and that
NASA has considered, but discarded due to a materials
difficulties). With the right materials, skin-tight suits would provide
sufficient pressure on the skin to equal atmospheric pressure. A
skin suit would allow the wearer to move normally, but without any
pressure problems
My idea would be:
1) TL 10-11 such suits must be custom made for a specific
individual. Generic suits will either be some form of rescue ball or
rigid hardsuits.
2) TL 12-13 such suits are made using materials that can shrink to
fit almost anyone of a given species or minor human race.
3) At TL 14+ tailored vac suits (like the ones in MT) are possible.
You can wear these full time, the suit is a loose and comfortable
jumpsuit in normal air pressure and shrinks to a tight-fitting skin-
suit in low pressure situations.
Sound good?
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:59 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Vac Suits and air pressure
In-Reply-To: <a05001900b6d04ac7e711@[154.20.7.44]>
Greetings dear hearts.
IMTU most people who need to go EVA rely on a skin-tight tailored garment
which provides the necessary pressure through elasticity rather than air
pressure. Air is supplied from the backpack to a 'goldfish bowl' helmet
for breathing purposes. A baggy, but unpressurised, overgarment is
normally worn to provide 'contact protection' (i.e. to stop the skin-tight
garment being abraded).
Emergency suits are just that. They are designed to be jumped into at a
moment's notice. They are not particularly sophisticated, the objective is
to keep you alive, not enable you to do very much. Basically a
non-tailored loose garment pressurised to about 25% atmospheric, plus
breathing kit akin to a SCUBA set to actually supply what you need to
breathe.
That any help?
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:59 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: RE: Imperial and local currency
In-Reply-To: <NDBBLFEDCMJBFBHNNPPNMEDJCNAA.carlino@home.com>
Greetings dear hearts, especially Terry.
I don't think I've made myself clear as to what I meant by 'smart card'.
What happens IMTU is that an individual can 'load' their financial
resources onto a card, and then 'offload' them again when setting up an
account or making a purchase elsewhere. So if you are planet-hopping, you
ensure that all your worldly wealth is loaded onto the smart card (which I
call a CredCard, by the way), and that gets tucked in your pocket until
you reach the next planet. So it basically acts like a letter of credit in
that you take the evidence of your funds with you, rather than relying on
third parties to inform each other about how much money you have.
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 18:00:07 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: RE: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question
On 03/10/01 at 05:53 PM, "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com> said:
>Question 2: Tom has previously stated that because he's on
>@Home.com his files sometimes don't download properly. I think that
>it has something to do with the way @Home.com handles its files.
That's a bad advertisement for @home.com now isn't it? The old
version is on SJG's site, and that one dl's from io.com just fine.
>The only fix is to keep trying. Eventually the file will download
>in its entirety. Not a very good answer for those who pay by the
>minute or have slow access, I'm afraid. It took me a couple of
>tries to get the file to download last time I updated, and I'm on
>@Home.com myself. (You would think that all the traffic would be
>along their own backbone and so have fewer problems.) All I can say
>is the programs really worth it.
Well, after 15 tries where it dies at the same point (68,456) I
dispair of ever getting it to dl here at home. :-<
I suppose if no one sends me a copy, I'll have wait until Monday
when I can put my copy at work on a floppy.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 16:02:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
As I said...the results of letting a Grunt loose on a mailing list ;o) ...I never said I was a poet or gifted in anyway at all.... LOL.....nor do I profess to speak English as you know it so I could never answer the latest questions. Have fun with that concept <weg>
Antaine.
~Geek code to follow~
- --- JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
> wrote:
>Though I can't argue with the quality of your conclusions, I find your
>scansion and rhyming deficient. In what way do "sublime" and "grown"
>rhyme? And it takes a considerable mangling to make the scansion of
>the second line work.
>
>Such is the pain of choosing a limerick as your form of expression.
>
>--
>JR Holmes
>jrholmes@wi.rr.com
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 20:36:23 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question
Just a note to let everyone know that a kind soul too pity on me and sent me a copy of the new version of GTS. Thanks, Gordon!
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:42:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org>
Subject: Re: Wealth
Thanks for the beer, Hans. I'll be over to claim it as soon as I can
afford the air fare. ;)
AFAIK, the obligation to accept Imperial credits only exists on the
planetary level; that is, member planets must provide a means of
exchanging Imperial credits for local currency. How they do this is
up to the local government; they may make it illegal for individual
citizens or businesses to refuse payment in CrImps, or they force
outworlders to deal only with government owned or chartered banks by
making it illegal for others to accept CrImps. Imperial force only
comes into play when trade is threatened on a planetary level, a
situation most *sane* planetary governments would try very hard to
avoid for purely practical reasons (ie. they need CrImps to pay
their Imperial tax obligations or Imperial Marines come knocking).
Unless that threat comes in the form of an uprising against the
Imperium (ie. a popular boycott of CrImps), that force will directed
against the government, not against Imperial citizens. The problem
of exchange rates is mostly self correcting; if they are unfair,
Imperial business goes elsewhere and the supply of CrImps dries up
with the aforementioned consequences.
- --
@==================================================@
| Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |
| Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html |
| Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos |
| "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium." |
| Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium |
| Hillary is the dragon; Internal Security took |
| refuge in Mission Control. FNORD! |
@==================================================@
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:45:02 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Good American Beer (it exists!)
In a message dated 3/4/01 10:59:54 PM !!!First Boot!!!, hovtej@hotmail.com
writes:
<< A suggestion for module for the Modular Cutter: a transportable
microbrewery. >>
which will promptly be installed in EVERY single PC starship and non-starship
in every single Traveller campaign in the (real) world...:-)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 23:57:49 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Crusades of the Future
In a message dated 3/7/01 10:05:21 AM !!!First Boot!,
bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk writes:
<< I couldn't help noticing recently that while religon is a hot button issue
so
are programming languages. It occured to me that in some societies,
particularly
high tech ones, various programming languages could reflect (or even cause)
philosophical differences within or between societies that might lead to
conflict. Perhaps even violent conflict. >>
while off topic, if you have a copy of GURPS Ogre, read the passage on the
debates between the various religions about whether sentient Ogres (not all
were...) have souls...
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:07:27 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Cutter Books
In a message dated 3/9/01 9:21:54 AM !!!First Boot!!!,
jenry023@student.liu.se writes:
<< Congratulations! Some people may have their doubts about this book, but I
feel
that it will be both useful and inspiring.
>>
If nothing else, it may cause all future PC ships to have 50 ton boat bays
installed...:-). For my money, I don't why more ships don't have them as
auxiliaries. IMHO, it's the most useful non-starship ever published, with the
possible exception of the 95 ton shuttle.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:10:10 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Wealth
In a message dated 3/9/01 7:27:30 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com writes:
<< US shop refusing certain inconveinent sized bills (like
refusing a $50.00 for a pack of gum).
>>
I hope not, as this happens in the US all the time...:-)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:12:57 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays
In a message dated 3/9/01 8:58:07 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
gridlore@mindspring.com writes:
<< We apologize for the oversight.
>>
Hey Doug; I don't consider myself a newbie, or an old master like yourself.
What the hell am I (and for that matter the others on the list in the same
boat)? ...:-)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:14:04 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: Jump-1 question
Thanks for the info. I'll probably modify this to where the costs are
modified relative to whatever world/economy they're dealing with at the
moment. Give the ECMs a chnce to 'buy low, sell high' as it were.
On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 08:47:25 +1100 Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
writes:
> >From: knightsky@juno.com
> >Subject: Jump-1 question
> >
> >Some time back it was mentioned/suggested that Jump-1 drives could,
> as
> >'outdated tech', could be discounted from it's base listed cost.
> This
> >sounded like a good idea to me, and I thought I had saved the
> message,
> >but evidently I hadn't. Can anyone remember what this said
> hypothetical
> >discount would be?
> >
> >
> >Perry
> >"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
>
> That would probably have been me.
>
> The easiest way to do it (and explain to your players that you may
> have to retrospectively rule
> 'temporary market conditions' if they find a too-nice way to rort
> it) is to rule that the Imperial Credit is a
> TL11 currency.
>
> Goods produced at below TL11 get a 20% discount on their 'sticker
> cost' per TL. A jump-1 drive is
> therefore available for roughly 60% of the 'sticker cost', if you
> pay Imperial Credits (it's a TL9 device,
> and is therefore at sticker price 0.8^2) .
>
> Goods produced at above TL11 get a 20% increase in their sticker
> cost per TL. A TL15 fusion plant
> will therefore cost about 190% of it's sticker cost (1.2^4).
>
> Remember that spare parts may cost more than this - there isnt that
> much demand for TL15 spare
> parts in District 268, so you might gouge them for everything you
> can get.
>
> You will need to adjust the price of jump-1 transport, but remember
> that a jump-1 freighter will probably
> not be all TL9 components - it will probably need a set of TL11
> thruster plates, and if it wants to avoid
> a fission power plant it will probably want a TL12 small fusion
> plant.
>
> Ian Whitchurch
>
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 00:22:15 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Heinlein honored by the USNA!
I found this on the Steve Jackson Games website; VERY COOL.....
The
Robert A
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 04:25:13 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
It all begins one day, when the Emperor requests that one of his most
trusted agents appears for an audience. He is concerned that certain
reports regarding the Spinward Marches are not entirely truthful. The time
is 7 years before the end of the Fifth Frontier war. The Emperor grants
his agent an Imperial Writ that demands help for the bearer when needed.
As this writ is numbered, the activities of this particular agent can be
tracked when ever the writ is executed.
As fate would have it, the agent is assigned to Naval Intelligence who in
turn, assign him to infiltrate an enemy organization who seems intent on
furthering the power of a Megacorporation at the expense of a noble's
estate. The agent becomes an assassin for hire, and is hired by the
megacorporation to assassinate select individuals. The deaths of these
individuals actually further the corporations plans in other areas, but
also act as a means for testing the loyalty of this relatively unknown
assassin. After passing such tests, the assassin is given a final task to
assassinate two children, a boy and girl child, being gestated in
artificial wombs. These two children are the last hope of a noble couple
who are childless and will ultimately loose their estate to the corporation
on the grounds that there are no heirs to inherit - something to do with
convoluted laws regarding the use of an estate as collateral.
The agent is unwilling to murder unborn children, asks for confirmation
of his orders from Naval intelligence. Rather than lose their only
infiltrator, they order the hit on the children as well. Unable to stomach
the orders, the agent tells his superiors in the Spinward marchers Naval
Intelligence to practice self-inflicted anatomical changes. He does
arrange for what appears to be the death of the children, but instead,
ghosts them away to another planet. Despite the fact they are near the
delvolpment stage for birthing, the agent lets one child be born, and
places the other fetus into a low berth state (for five years as fate would
have it).
At present, the organization/Megacorporation has successfully taken over
the estate of the now dead nobles (funny what happens in a war isn't it?).
Initially fearful of non-compliance with their wishes of an assassination,
the megacorporation seeds databases with a trojan program that will flag
the presense of any medical inquiries relating to the genetic code of those
two children. Years later, when nothing surfaces, the megacorporation
forgets about this watchdog program/database waiting to signal the
existance of the children who supposedly died, but left no bodies for
confirmation.
What happened in 25 years? The boy is placed in the care of his parents
who raise him with the added inducement of the Imperial Writ. On two
occasions, the writ is used to withdraw sums needed to bribe the parents
(once for each child). The girl is decanted five years after the boy is
decanted, and the two are brother and sister with foster parents. The
agent acts as a friend of the family and is the God Father of the children.
He in turn, gets a job as a financial intelligence forecast analyst.
After the fifth frontier war comes to a halt, the local economy crashes,
and in a supposedly freak accident, the parents are killed. In reality,
those parents are killed due to the policies of this megacorporation in its
quest for profits.
Unfortunately, the agent loses track of the kids as they end up in the
poorer section of the planet's only city/starport. He himself creates his
own "watcher" virus to inform him when any data on his "kids" show up.
Enter the PC's. They wander in the city's slum section and discover that
"Koala" is right handy with his fists, and has a heart of gold for
strangers about to get their collective buttocks handed to them. Perhaps
the young man just has a penchant for brawling. Whatever the reason, it is
a fateful event as he is asked to join the PC's in an effort to crew an old
Beowulf class ship. He assents readily enough, but asks if his sister can
be hired as a stewardess. She cooks well enough, and has waited on tables
and worked in hotels in her last 5 years of life. The Kindly captain
orders a background check on these two "kids" and a complete physical.
Turns out that as a result of her stint in low berth while in the
artificial womb, she's suffered correctable genetic defects that affect how
her body metabolizes food. As a scrawny and nearly starving waiflike young
woman of 20 standard years - the captain orders her into a medical for
evaluation.
Enter the bad guys: the evaluation sends her code to the local database for
confirmation and evaluation. This in turns notifies the megacorporation
hacks of her existance. 2 weeks later, a local talent assassin attempts to
kill the boy but instead bungles the assignment. The Assassin is unaware
that the Agent is desparately trying to find his kids and save their lives.
When the assassination attempt is bungled, the Agent unearths his writ,
and starts storming the gates of hell so to speak, in an effort to protect
them. In the end, he only manages to get himself shot. But not before he
hands to the PC's - a strongbox with the money originally given to him to
effect an assassination some 25 years prior. He's also got records that
show he was given money to assassinate the noble's children. Finally, he's
given the PC's a metal case to store in their ship's locker - as he had
originally intended to board the freighter as a passenger. Alas, he took a
3mm Gauss rifle round into his chest (damage equivalent to a .50 cal round
by the way).
Ultimately, what this story is about is how some sleeping dogs should be
left to lie...
<how did he mean "Lie" I wonder?>
<can those kids still inherit their father's lands - if it can be proven
that the megacorporation wrongfully assumed ownership of the estate?>
<For whom the bell tolls - what political ramifications will come into play
when it is discovered that the officer in Naval Intelligence ordered the
death of Imperial Nobles - is now the second most senior officer in charge
of a local Naval Intelligence base?>
<How will the players deal with the machinations of a Megacorporation where
the unearthing of such fouls manueverings in the past, can ruin consumer
confidence and effect profitability?>
<after the players argued about whether to rent out all 20 low berth tubes,
they discover that when they really *NEED* a low berth for medical
emergencies, they don't have one. Wanna bet they won't rent out all the
tubes in the future?>
Well, I'm tired, and need some sleep. If anyone can point out
ramifications I've overlooked, feel free to comment. Oh, before I forget?
The Imperial Agent is considered to be AWOL, and is currently wanted for
questioning.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:36:02 +0100
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays
Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> Hey Doug; I don't consider myself a newbie, or an old master like yourself.
> What the hell am I (and for that matter the others on the list in the same
> boat)? ...:-)
I believe the correct title is 'Initiate'
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:16:28 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Vac suits and air pressure
Glenn Grant wrote :-
> Question is, how much pre-breathing is required?
Current NASA suits are pressurised to 200mmHg (~3.7 psi), with a 95% oxygen
gas mixture.
Yep, the bends or decompression sickness (DCS) is the big concern.
Decompression regime :-
1 hour breathing 100% oxygen at 760mmHg pressure (1 atmosphere)
Depressurisation from 760 -> 500mmHg, hold for 12 hours
Depressurisation from 500 -> 200mmHg (another 40 minutes) -> EVA
This carries a 2% chance of decompression sickness per person-day of EVA.
> And what effects would PCs suffer when they have to suit up in a
> hurry as the ship rapidly decompresses from a major hit?
Hop over to Geoffrey Landis' website :-
http://www.sff.net/people/geoffrey.landis/
He's got NASA data on decompression related problems (ebullism, burns, etc.)
A diving website or www.brooks.af.mil will have more info on DCS.
> Anybody got rules to cover this?
These may still be part of the T5 draft rules :-
> Decompression
> The environment for the character (vac suit, building, vehicle) loses
> pressure.
> Slow Leak. Suffocate-1 per hour.
> Major Leak. Suffocate-1 per ten minutes.
> Explosive Decompression. Suffocate-1 per combat round.
>
> Suffocate is applied to Intelligence (instead of the three physical
> characteristics). When Intelligence is reduced to zero, the character
> is unconscious. When Suffocate equal to twice Intelligence are
> received, the character is in a coma; when Suffocate equal to three
>times Intelligence, the character is dead.
I would rule that in the case of an explosive decompression, a character has
(2 X End) seconds before losing consciousness.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 03:26:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Time shortage
In mail you write:
> At 10:42 AM 03/09/01 PST, you wrote:
>>In mail you write:
>>> As the Leonard Erickson Breeding Program waits in hushed anticipation...
>>
>>Sorry, neither of us is planning on having kids.
>
> Who said you get a choice? We've studied at the National Zoo School of
> Panda Lust to perfect our techniques! When the three metric tons of bamboo
> show, accept delivery. Trust us, it seems to work wonders!
>
>>If the program is willing to settle for a sperm donation, I'm *sure*
>>she'd be glad to co-operate in helping me provide one. <g>
>
> This is me being a good penguin and *not* going to any of the possible
> destinations...
And I suspect that you can come up with a lot of destinations. If not,
I *know* you know people who can clue you in after you show them my
post. :-)
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 03:33:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Astronomy Question
In mail you write:
> I'm doing some setting work involving either an open or globular star
> cluster. I've a few questions for folks with more astronomy
> background that I:
You might want to double check what *kind* of stars such clusters have.
I vaguely recal them having population II stars, which are very
unlikely to have usable planets.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 13:36:08 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ian=20Cooper?= <ian_hammond_cooper@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Subject: RE: Imperial and local currency
Mexal.
<<In my opinion, Far Trader is making a serious error
if it does not allow for some form of funds transfer
between worlds. There is no way the CrImp can be
accepted as a 'currency standard' unless it is
possible.
I would have thought that funds transfer by means of a
smart card would have been perfectly feasible (at
least, that's how it works IMTU).>>
Terry Carlino:
Century letter of credit feel. Sure your PC might have
54 MCr at the bank in Glisten, but unless she's made
arrangements through Hortelez et Cie or another bank
when shegets to Muan Gwi all she'll have is the
clothes on her back and whatever credits she's got in
her luggage. It won't be just a matter of going up
to a bank and arranging an electronic transfer.>
If I want to purchase somehting from a US suplier,
from the UK I have three ways of overcoming the
currency problems:
1: Credit Card
2: Banker's Draft
3: Third-party payment holding organistion such as
pay-pal.
IMO all 3 would have equivalents in the Imperium.
1: Credit Card - a credit card that can be used
off-planet is probably going to be rarer, depending on
how common you percieve interstellar travel as being,
and underwritten by the megacorporations (I don't
care if you can pay Hortalez et Cie, or TAS what you
owe, I care that they will pay me). A
megacorporation has this kind of clout, sector-wide
and subsector wide companies may be able to
underwrite these cards within their own area of
influence as well. Charges might be high,
administration costs are not cheap, and would probably
passed on to the consumer (extra 10% say for payment
by interstellar credit card). Possibly the model would
be less a credit card than a charge card (like Amex)
or debit card (effectively a card that you must allows
ou to sepnd money you already have, not that will
lend you money). Security will be tight to avoid
fraud, and would be both elctronic/biometric on the
card itself, and probably involve the megacorporation
security services to stamp out fraud.
2: Having just sent one of these the issue is: The
purchaser's bank has an agreement with a bank at the
destination world. The purchaser gives his bank the
funds, which are cleared, and they then issue him a
cheque. The purchaser sends the cheque (or electronic
transfer via xboat or whatever). The seller cashes
the cheque. The local bank pays immediately (they have
an agreement with the purchasers bank, who will
always pay them. becuase the purchasers funds were
cleared before the cheque was issued).
3: A megacorporation could act as a clearing house.
Both parties register, say with Hortaez et Cie. The
purchaser pays the money to Hortalez et cie on his
world. When the funds clear H&C contact the seller.
The seller ships the goods. On receipt of the goods
the purchaser notifies H&C to release the funds.
Hope this helps,
Ian
____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3790
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3791
Date: | 3/11/01 3:42:29 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Sunday, March 11 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3791
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [TML] Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
Re: Newbie Essays
Re: Astronomy Question
Re: GURPS Traveller Shipyards question
FFW
Neither Newbie Nor TML GOO....
Question about the Imperial military
Re: Jump-1 question
Re: Question about the Imperial military
Re: Vac Suits and air pressure
Re: Vac Suits and air pressure
Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
Re: Question about the Imperial military
Between Worlds fanzines on Ebay
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 11:01:39 -0500
From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 04:25:13 -0500
>From: hal@buffnet.net
>Subject: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
I rather like this adventure. It's got some great background, plays on
quite a few emotions, and sounds like it could turn into quite the run. =)
Great job!! I'll read it a bit more, and see what more to say. =)
Cheers
- ---
==============================================================
Jonathan McDermott http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@
- ------------------------------------------------------------
"Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."
-Steve Wozniak
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 09:28:12 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays
At 12:12 AM 03/11/01 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 3/9/01 8:58:07 PM !!!First Boot!!!,
>gridlore@mindspring.com writes:
>
><< We apologize for the oversight.
> >>
>
>Hey Doug; I don't consider myself a newbie, or an old master like yourself.
>What the hell am I (and for that matter the others on the list in the same
>boat)? ...:-)
The vast majority of Traveller players/fans.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 12:37:28 -0500
From: Gordon Hundley <drgoon@netaxs.com>
Subject: Re: Astronomy Question
on 11/3/01 6:33 am, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
> In mail you write:
>
>> I'm doing some setting work involving either an open or globular star
>> cluster. I've a few questions for folks with more astronomy
>> background that I:
>
> You might want to double check what *kind* of stars such clusters have.
> I vaguely recal them having population II stars, which are very
> unlikely to have usable planets.
For which this database may be useful:
http://obswww.unige.ch/webda/
(A Site Devoted to Stellar Open Clusters)
And this more general page:
http://www.seds.org/messier/open.html
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 13:46:01 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Shipyards question
> Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 13:50:53 -0600
> From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
> Subject: Re: GURPS Traveller Shipyard question
>
> On 03/10/01 at 09:25 AM, Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com> said:
>
> >Question is, how do I add the new modules? The documentation isn't
> >too clear, at least to me.
>
Open GTS and open a ship.
In the bottom left pane open tree to the proper place where you want to
put the new module. E.g. Adding an alien accommodations you open
Accommodations and select Crew Quarters.
Click on the right bottom pane. (any entry will do)
Select Repository, New Module menu items
This will display and Edit dialog where you can enter all the
information about the module. Press OK when you have finished entering
the information.
Select Repository, Save As... menu items to save your changes.
You can, if you are a Pyramid subscriber, download the latest version
of the GT repository with all the modules that will be in the Starships
book from the Starships playtest area. (Subscribe Today!)
> What I did was modify some existing modules, rather than add
> completely new ones.
>
> Is Tom Bont on the TML? <g> I'd love to petition him for some
> additions to his html and spreadsheet output. I suspect he's been
> pretty busy with other things, so I haven't pestered him about it
> yet.
>
I far as I know he's not. I have periodic contact with him. He is
active on the Pyramid and JTAS boards. He is very busy with Starships at
the moment.
> Oh, and I *still* think Loren is wrong on the "power slice" issue!
> I was a good boy, though, and shut up once it was clear he wasn't
> going to let Rob and Tom change that. <g>
>
> However, I still want to have a repository of "sliceless modules"
> for GTS!
>
So do I. I know he build most of the sliceless modules as an
experiment. You can get a taste of them by downloading the GS3 (GURPS
Space 3) Repository.
I know this is of highest demand, so he may publish it after Starships
is out, either as a JTAS article or simply on the web site.
> I also would really, *really* like to see the various modules
> deconstructed into their VE3 components. I can't really gearhead
> new ones, or correct modify existing ones unitl I know how they were
> constructed. ;-< I know something like that couldn't be in the
> book, but it would be nice if there was a link to a file somewhere.
>
I have copies of all of them. They are posted in the Starships playtest
area as one of the downloads. Check the Verified Design Notes.zip file.
(Subscribe Today!).
Perhaps when the book is published they will be put in a public area.
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 11:49:11 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: FFW
Does anyone remember the site with the information for expanding Fifth
Frontier War to the entire Spinward Marches?
Jeffrey Yin
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 12:25:07 -0800 (PST)
From: AuricTech Shipyards <aurictech@esweeet.com>
Subject: Neither Newbie Nor TML GOO....
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 10:36:02 +0100
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays
Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> Hey Doug; I don't consider myself a newbie, or an old master like yourself.
> What the hell am I (and for that matter the others on the list in the
same
> boat)? ...:-)
I believe the correct title is 'Initiate'
As in "Ellery Queen Intitiate of the Mysteries."
BTW, I finally arrived in Bosnia, following a trainup in Germany. I look forward to having regular (though brief) e-mail access again.
ObTrav: Well, IIRC, the Imperial Army spends a lot of time on internal security missions, which may well be similar to peacekeeping....
==
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/colverber/travler.html
_____________________________________________________________
Free eSweeet Mail - http://www.esweeet.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 15:54:44 EST
From: Spm073@aol.com
Subject: Question about the Imperial military
- --part1_18.9feb490.27dd4014_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I AM a newbie and have recently gotten involved in Traveller through the
GURPs incarnation, so bear that in mind if i manage to offend anyone.
Ive been trying to find a setting that i oculd run a major military campaign
in with both starships, dropships and ground forces. A friend referred me to
Traveller and here i am three months later still trying to work some things
out.
The questions:
1) What are the common types/classes of ships in the Imperium? to help me
name some vessels.
2) What military branches are there in the Imperium and where can i find
more information? Im planning on having Players play members of a starship
that contains both dropships/fighters and houses some marines or a landing
party. In essense theywill be playing out game sessions at any of the 3
levels. However, if this seems ridiculous from a Traveller standpoint let me
know. (the origianl inspiration was the Starship Troopers movie and its
framing of some scenes around Mobile Infantry and others around the Fleet)
3) What types of conflicts (other than creating one) would be a good setting
for a large military mobilization by the imperium?
4) This may negate the previous questions, but am i overstepping the use of
the Imperium (one of my players is a fan of traveller from several years
back) and should i use one of the minor races as my core group)? Do they
become involved in enough fullscale mobilizations to warrant creating this
campaign? If not, any ideas or options to keep the same flavor of my game?
Patrick
- --part1_18.9feb490.27dd4014_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I AM a newbie and have recently gotten involved in Traveller through the
GURPs incarnation, so bear that in mind if i manage to offend anyone.
Ive been trying to find a setting that i oculd run a major military campaign
in with both starships, dropships and ground forces. &nbsp;A friend referred me to
Traveller and here i am three months later still trying to work some things
out. &nbsp;
The questions:
1) &nbsp;What are the common types/classes of ships in the Imperium? &nbsp;to help me
name some vessels. &nbsp;
2) &nbsp;What military branches are there in the Imperium and where can i find
more information? &nbsp;Im planning on having Players play members of a starship
that contains both dropships/fighters and houses some marines or a landing
party. &nbsp;In essense theywill be playing out game sessions at any of the 3
levels. &nbsp;However, if this seems ridiculous from a Traveller standpoint let me
know. &nbsp;(the origianl inspiration was the Starship Troopers movie and its
framing of some scenes around Mobile Infantry and others around the Fleet)
3) &nbsp;What types of conflicts (other than creating one) would be a good setting
for a large military mobilization by the imperium?
4) &nbsp;This may negate the previous questions, but am i overstepping the use of
the Imperium (one of my players is a fan of traveller from several years
back) and should i use one of the minor races as my core group)? &nbsp;Do they
become involved in enough fullscale mobilizations to warrant creating this
campaign? &nbsp;If not, any ideas or options to keep the same flavor of my game?
Patrick
- --part1_18.9feb490.27dd4014_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 07:54:00 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Jump-1 question
>From: knightsky@juno.com
>Subject: Re: Jump-1 question
>
>Thanks for the info. I'll probably modify this to where the costs are
>modified relative to whatever world/economy they're dealing with at the
>moment. Give the ECMs a chnce to 'buy low, sell high' as it were.
*nods* But remember 'If the money is this easy, why isnt everybody doing it ?' - if you see an easy profit
opportunitiy, there should be 3-5 other Free Traders/ECMs trying to cut the same deal. Who all have
to be got rid of, one way or another ...
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:59:01 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military
Hello Patrick,
I don't know if these suggestions will be helpful or not, but what the
heck right? <grin>...
One book out there, that you may be able to get your hands upon is the
Fighting Ships of the Imperium. If I recall correctly, all of the classic
books of TRAVELLER were reprinted recently. In the FIGHTING SHIPS OF THE
IMPERIUM, are ship classes built using HIGH GUARD. With the exception of
fusion guns, most of the weapons of those ships can be recreated using
GURPS TRAVELLER. While I personally disagree with the design options
chosen to simulate HIGH GUARD meson weapons in TRAVELLER, it is possible to
create GURPS analogs of most of the classic ship classes for use in your
campaign.
With regards to running a military campaign, there is nothing that
prohibits you from having a 6th Frontier war. After all, the fifth
frontier war was initiated without much warning against the Imperium. In
real life history, Germany was defeated in 1918, and reinitiated World War
II in 1939. Oddly enough, this 20 year period of peace is close to the
time that has passed in the GURPS TRAVELLER universe <grin>.
What would be considered the flashpoint of the 6th Frontier war? How about
the Sword worlds? Better yet? Give the Zho's a new Grand Admiral who
orchestrates a far more subtle war plan against the Imperium? First phase
would be to rattle the sabers and get the Imperium edgy and nervous. The
Imperium stations a few fleets within 2 jump cycles from the border. Why?
They don't want to give the Zho's the ability to strike against an unwarned
fleet, so they place a few picket ships near the border with instructions
to maintain constant communications via scout couriers. Meanwhile, the
Sword Worlders have been getting infusions of technology to upgrade from
their current Tech 9 technological base to a Tech 10 or Tech 11. The
Imperium views this upgrade with alarm and arms the buffer states with a
corresponding technological upgrade.
Then, on the night you launch your wartime campaign, you can have Imperial
advisors helping the Buffer states deal with the Sword worlds, who are
attempting to reintegrate their original empire. The Imperium can't commit
resources from the Zho border to the sword world border without weakening
that defensive stance. The players can either play the Sword Worlders, the
Buffer States, or the Imperial advisors.
Considerations for your campaign: one problem involved here is whether you
use the concept that a jump requires a target gravity well to emerge from
jumpspace. If this is the case, then ships may not jump to the outer orbit
region of a star and move in. It gives known potential emergence sites
that the "defender" may use for their ambush sites.
If you use the concept that you do not need a gravity well to emerge in -
deep space jump destinations are possible, permitting an enemy fleet to
stage to and from in their war against an enemy. Design Tanker class ships
that permit a fleet to refuel in deep space and hit unexpected targets.
This has the effect of forcing a defender to defend a broad area of
operations instead of massing his fleets. It gives the attacker a critical
edge in establishing momentum in his offense.
Remember too, that missiles in GURPS TRAVELLER are FAR more effective in
warfare than they were in HIGH GUARD (I Can't speak for MT or TNE because I
never ran any such campaigns with large scale warfare).
If you want to have fun with your players - consider creating variant
class fighter platforms. As mentioned before, fighters generally tend to
be ineffectual in major fleet engagements due to the limited fire power
abilities. They can take on escort ships and such, but not battle fleets.
There is nothing in the rules that state a fighter has to be laser armed.
Put a weapons officer aboard a fighter platform, and make it a two man
crew, and you've got an effective punch when 40 fighters launch 40 missiles
at the same time. But the best part of creating a fighter wing for your
campaign is the simple fact that your players can be involved in all sorts
of activity against the enemy. They can be involved in freighter
interdiction, they can be involved in shore leaves, they can be involved in
fighting activity where individual bravery still counts (as opposed to
being a gunner aboard a Battleship where you are one of many on a single
hull). Fighters who are originally stations aboard a carrier can be
reassigned to a planetary base, or even reassigned to a jeep carrier class
ship where only a few fighters are required. Such a ship could be used as
a commerce raider type unit. One trick that can be used to extend the
flight duration of fighter class ships?
SLOW and FAST drug use. And since one list member pointed out problems
with hypothermia - use specially designed flight suits that maintain pilot
temperatures to combat such problems <grin>. Pilots can now engage in long
distance strikes merely by using metabolism altering drugs. One "trick" I
used for my own campaigns in GURPS TRAVELLER was to use a daisy chain
communications link. A forward fighter would spot a larger enemy ship well
outside of the mother ship's sensor range. Fighter would link to another
fighter, who in turn would link with the next fighter, who in turn linked
with the mother ship. Mother ship would engage in a high speed run towards
the target before launching her own missiles. The missiles then coast
towards the enemy until they are within range of the target. The lead
fighter then takes control of the missiles and guides them onto target.
I should mention that a lot of my "tactics" evolve around the fact that I
use vector movement rather than the standard GURPS movement rules. GURPS
TRAVELLER *REQUIRES* that the last movement point of a missile *ends* in
the hex of its target in order to secure a potential hit. In my traveller
universe, the only thing required to secure a potential hit was for the
VECTOR of the missile to pass through the target point. Anyone who is
interested in my "homebrew" adaptation of MAYDAY rules in my GURPS
TRAVELLER campaigns, may email me privately for the full details. The
"rough" details are as follows:
Each ship has its intended plot or course. Ships move before missiles
move. In a vector based plotting system, you have the current location
marker (or apex of the triangle of engagement zone), the drift marker - the
location the missile will end up in if it doesn't change its course at all,
and the changed course maximum boundry. These three points determine the
area in the form of a triangle, that a missile can hit. If the target ship
is entirely within the triangle, and the missile can hit it on the turn of
determination, the missile is said to have secured a potential hit and
requires the song and dance ritual of missile operator versus target
pilot's manuevers in order to secure a hit or miss result. If the ship is
outside of the missile's triangle of opportunity, the GM attempts to
determine of the ship left the "triangle" before it could be hit, or was
potentially able to be hit before it left. In other words, if the ship is
nearer to the apex of the triangle when it's movement takes it out of the
triangle, it is more likely to have been hit. The middle area of the
triangle means it was more likely to have been hit before it left the
triangle, and nearer to the back, it means that the ship was likely able to
scuttle out to safety by the narrowest of margins.
For what it is worth - do NOT attempt to use my methods unless you have
four counters to represent a ship. You need the last position of the ship
prior to this turn, the current position of the ship, the pending position
of the ship if it doesn't make any course corrections, and the final
position of the ship (or missile for that matter!) with regards to the
potential course change. The pilot of the vehicle then places his
controlled vehicle's final location by picking a spot within the "triangle"
to denote this is where he intended to go.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:47:36 -0500
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Re: Vac Suits and air pressure
John Snead sez,
>I always assumed that Traveller suits were either:
>1) Smart materials that could maintain full pressure and bend at
>the joints. I would assume these would only exist at TL 12+
>2) (Cooler and even more likely, even at TL 10+) space suits were
>the skin-tight suits I've run across in various SF stories
[snip]
>Sound good?
Sounds good to me, John. My concern would be wrinkles: if the suit
isn't perfectly skin-tight at every point, it would cause the
wearer's skin to pucker. Space-hickeys, basically. So the suit
would have to be perfectly wrinkle-free, even at the joints.
Might be do-able, though.
Megan sez,
>IMTU most people who need to go EVA rely on a skin-tight tailored garment
>which provides the necessary pressure through elasticity rather than air
>pressure. Air is supplied from the backpack to a 'goldfish bowl' helmet
>for breathing purposes. A baggy, but unpressurised, overgarment is
>normally worn to provide 'contact protection' (i.e. to stop the skin-tight
>garment being abraded).
The overgarment would also provide some modesty, as the skin-tight
layer alone wouldn't leave much to the imagination!
I'm also wondering how comfortable a skintight would be; it would
need to be awfully, um, intimate with parts of the body not usually
in such snug contact with one's clothes. (Think "wedgie"...)
>Emergency suits are just that. They are designed to be jumped into at a
>moment's notice. They are not particularly sophisticated, the objective is
>to keep you alive, not enable you to do very much. Basically a
>non-tailored loose garment pressurised to about 25% atmospheric, plus
>breathing kit akin to a SCUBA set to actually supply what you need to
>breathe.
But rapidly going from full pressure to 25% would give you the bends,
hence my original post.
So emergency suits absolutely must be pumped to 100% -- which means
they have to be rigid with mechanical joints (at TL-11-), or made of
smart materials that can flex at the joints (At TL 12+), as John
stated above.
Rob O'Connor sez,
>Yep, the bends or decompression sickness (DCS) is the big concern.
>
>Decompression regime :-
>1 hour breathing 100% oxygen at 760mmHg pressure (1 atmosphere)
>Depressurisation from 760 -> 500mmHg, hold for 12 hours
>Depressurisation from 500 -> 200mmHg (another 40 minutes) -> EVA
>This carries a 2% chance of decompression sickness per person-day of EVA.
Wow! Takes a lot longer than I thought.
>I would rule that in the case of an explosive decompression, a character has
>(2 X End) seconds before losing consciousness.
Good stuff, Rob, as usual.
Many thanks, all!
+ GMG +
- --
Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
_Northern Suns: The New Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_
Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant
++Now in trade paperback from Tor Books++
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:47:36 -0500
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Re: Vac Suits and air pressure
John Snead sez,
>I always assumed that Traveller suits were either:
>1) Smart materials that could maintain full pressure and bend at
>the joints. I would assume these would only exist at TL 12+
>2) (Cooler and even more likely, even at TL 10+) space suits were
>the skin-tight suits I've run across in various SF stories
[snip]
>Sound good?
Sounds good to me, John. My concern would be wrinkles: if the suit
isn't perfectly skin-tight at every point, it would cause the
wearer's skin to pucker. Space-hickeys, basically. So the suit
would have to be perfectly wrinkle-free, even at the joints.
Might be do-able, though.
Megan sez,
>IMTU most people who need to go EVA rely on a skin-tight tailored garment
>which provides the necessary pressure through elasticity rather than air
>pressure. Air is supplied from the backpack to a 'goldfish bowl' helmet
>for breathing purposes. A baggy, but unpressurised, overgarment is
>normally worn to provide 'contact protection' (i.e. to stop the skin-tight
>garment being abraded).
The overgarment would also provide some modesty, as the skin-tight
layer alone wouldn't leave much to the imagination!
I'm also wondering how comfortable a skintight would be; it would
need to be awfully, um, intimate with parts of the body not usually
in such snug contact with one's clothes. (Think "wedgie"...)
>Emergency suits are just that. They are designed to be jumped into at a
>moment's notice. They are not particularly sophisticated, the objective is
>to keep you alive, not enable you to do very much. Basically a
>non-tailored loose garment pressurised to about 25% atmospheric, plus
>breathing kit akin to a SCUBA set to actually supply what you need to
>breathe.
But rapidly going from full pressure to 25% would give you the bends,
hence my original post.
So emergency suits absolutely must be pumped to 100% -- which means
they have to be rigid with mechanical joints (at TL-11-), or made of
smart materials that can flex at the joints (At TL 12+), as John
stated above.
Rob O'Connor sez,
>Yep, the bends or decompression sickness (DCS) is the big concern.
>
>Decompression regime :-
>1 hour breathing 100% oxygen at 760mmHg pressure (1 atmosphere)
>Depressurisation from 760 -> 500mmHg, hold for 12 hours
>Depressurisation from 500 -> 200mmHg (another 40 minutes) -> EVA
>This carries a 2% chance of decompression sickness per person-day of EVA.
Wow! Takes a lot longer than I thought.
>I would rule that in the case of an explosive decompression, a character has
>(2 X End) seconds before losing consciousness.
Good stuff, Rob, as usual.
Many thanks, all!
+ GMG +
- --
Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
_Northern Suns: The New Anthology of Canadian Science Fiction_
Edited by David Hartwell & Glenn Grant
++Now in trade paperback from Tor Books++
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:09:27 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 05:09:42 -0500 (EST), JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
wrote:
>On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:35:39 -0800 (PST), Antaine
><Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net> wrote:
>><Introduction>
>>In this essay I will be looking at the effect of the widely available
>>nano technology on the Traveller Universe. I approached this by doing
>>nano seconds of background research.
>>
>>Hardware will be smaller
>><Conclusion>
>>In conclusion, we can see that the overall effects will be far
>>reaching and would involve a major rule rewrite for areas such as
>>Starship design and construction.
>><End>
>>Antaine.
>Had the list known that you were a poet and gifted with the ability to
>illustrate complex issues in so few words, the bar would have
>originally been set much higher.
>Please restate your above findings in the form of (at your option)
>haiku, sonnet or limerick.
Nanotech makes change
Hardware will become smaller
Need to rewrite rules
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:12:45 +0100
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military
Spm073@aol.com wrote:
> I AM a newbie and have recently gotten involved in Traveller through the
> GURPs incarnation, so bear that in mind if i manage to offend anyone.
Hey, the last week or two has had more newbies than ever dropping in around
here. Great! Welcome!
And have no fear about the offense part. We won't hurt you. We'll maybe hurt
your keyboard, but not you.
> Ive been trying to find a setting that i oculd run a major military campaign
> in with both starships, dropships and ground forces. A friend referred me to
> Traveller and here i am three months later still trying to work some things
> out.
Great choice! Make sure you thank your friend :-)
> 1) What are the common types/classes of ships in the Imperium? to help me
> name some vessels.
A ship class is often named after the first ship in that class. Later ships get
names along the same theme.
Example: There is a mercenary cruiser ship class called Broadsword. The first
such ship was named Broadsword. When other, (more or less) identical ships were
made, they were said to be of the Broadsword class. They got names such as
Longsword, Claymore, ...
So, if you have a unique ship it can have any name. If you make another ship
like the first one, you'd probably give it a similiar name.
There are, off course, plenty of ships that do not follow these naming
guidelines. However, military and megacorporation ships often do. Mercenary
ships, free traders, and other such rabble give their ships just about any names
these days... ;-)
> 2) What military branches are there in the Imperium and where can i find
> more information? Im planning on having Players play members of a starship
> that contains both dropships/fighters and houses some marines or a landing
> party.
Branches:
1) Navy. In addition to actual fleets, the navy contains support vessels, bases,
marines, and other necessary things for navy operations. This seems to be
exactly what you want. ;-)
2) Army. The army is ground troops, "wet" navy (boats, submarines...),
planetbound airforce, etc. The non-elite (non-marines) dropship troops are part
of the army as well.
3) Scouts. The scouts are not exactly military, but it is for instance possible
to be drafted for scout service. The scout service explores the known and
unknown universe.
4) Merchants. Also a somewhat non-military branch, but still a possible draft
destination.
Information about the scouts can be found in GT: First In (GT is an abbrevation
for GURPS Traveller). The army appears in GT: Ground Forces. The best source for
information about merchants (independent or not) is GT: Far Trader.
Sadly, GT: Imperial Navy doesn't exist yet, but it will at some point. If you
need specific information, feel free to ask your questions here ;-)
> 3) What types of conflicts (other than creating one) would be a good setting
> for a large military mobilization by the imperium?
Either conflict with the Zhodani (in the Spinward Marches) or with the Solomani
(in the Solomani Sphere). Information about these areas can be found in GT:
Beyond the Claw (Spinward Marches) or GT: Rim of Fire (Solomani Sphere).
> 4) This may negate the previous questions, but am i overstepping the use of
> the Imperium (one of my players is a fan of traveller from several years
> back) and should i use one of the minor races as my core group)? Do they
> become involved in enough fullscale mobilizations to warrant creating this
> campaign? If not, any ideas or options to keep the same flavor of my game?
The Imperium certainly gets stuck in where the action is. Besides, playing
humans is a lot easier to do well. The universe is complex enough *outside* the
head of the character you are playing.
For these reasons, the Imperium is kind of the default setting. Most of the
people on this list use it. It's large, complex, intriguing... but wait, there
is more. If you order today, you will receive not one, not two, but three
penguins, free of additional charge.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 16:44:27 -0700
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <jps64@earthlink.net>
Subject: Between Worlds fanzines on Ebay
For those interested, I am offering up a complete set (1-6) of a mid-80's
Traveller fanzine for sale on Ebay. The zine was called "Between Worlds"
and was published by Magnus Abel. They're are being sold individually and
the url with further information is:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewListedItems&userid=timmon&include=0&since=-1&sort=2&rows=25
Cordially,
Paul Sanders
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3791
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From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)
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Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3792
Date: | 3/12/01 2:04:11 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, March 12 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3792
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
Re: Question about the Imperial military
Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
New Website
Re: Question about the Imperial military
Re: Question about the Imperial military
Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
Re: New Website
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791
Re: New Website
Re: Neither Newbie Nor TML GOO....
Re: Neither Newbie Nor TML GOO....
Re: New Website
Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791
Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
RE: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
RE: Newbie Essays
Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
Oh, Belgium!
Re: Question about the Imperial military
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:01:46 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:35:39 -0800 (PST) Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net (Antaine)
wrote:
><Introduction>
>
>
>Hardware will be smaller
>
><Conclusion>
>
Ack! ROFL SPLORT and a dead keyboard.
Your gonna fit in just fine!
Bruce Johnson
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:23:54 EST
From: Spm073@aol.com
Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military
- --part1_97.125b645a.27dd711a_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
OK,
I guess now im getting closer to what i need to fill in the blanks.
Now, to a more practical matter:
What do the ships of the Imperium look like? Im trying to find a ship that
can perform both as a carrier for a few fighters (for its own protection) and
dropships for marines which are housed on board. Anyone have an suggestions.
Im planning on this being my players homeship but possibly having another
ship there as a sister ship (either a larger one with enough resources to
bail the players out of trouble or a smaller one to force the players to bail
it out of trouble)
Also, anyone have any pics or descriptions of the typical Imperial NAval
officers' uniform/equpiment? Same thing for Marine?
Im also looking or plot/campaign threads to run these people through, so Id
appreciate any feedback.
I lost the earlier reply about possible threat races for a major conflict.
Can whoever sent it please resend?>
Patrick
- --part1_97.125b645a.27dd711a_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
OK,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I guess now im getting closer to what i need to fill in the blanks. &nbsp;&nbsp;
Now, to a more practical matter:
What do the ships of the Imperium look like? &nbsp;Im trying to find a ship that
can perform both as a carrier for a few fighters (for its own protection) and
dropships for marines which are housed on board. &nbsp;Anyone have an suggestions.
&nbsp;Im planning on this being my players homeship but possibly having another
ship there as a sister ship (either a larger one with enough resources to
bail the players out of trouble or a smaller one to force the players to bail
it out of trouble)
Also, anyone have any pics or descriptions of the typical Imperial NAval
officers' uniform/equpiment? &nbsp;Same thing for Marine?
Im also looking or plot/campaign threads to run these people through, so Id
appreciate any feedback.
I lost the earlier reply about possible threat races for a major conflict. &nbsp;
Can whoever sent it please resend?&gt;
Patrick
- --part1_97.125b645a.27dd711a_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:33:24 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 17:09:27 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin
<jzeitlin@cyburban.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 05:09:42 -0500 (EST), JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:35:39 -0800 (PST), Antaine
>><Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net> wrote:
>
>>><Introduction>
>
>>>In this essay I will be looking at the effect of the widely available
>>>nano technology on the Traveller Universe. I approached this by doing
>>>nano seconds of background research.
>
>>>
>
>>>Hardware will be smaller
>
>>><Conclusion>
>
>>>In conclusion, we can see that the overall effects will be far
>>>reaching and would involve a major rule rewrite for areas such as
>>>Starship design and construction.
>
>>><End>
>
>>>Antaine.
>
>>Had the list known that you were a poet and gifted with the ability to
>>illustrate complex issues in so few words, the bar would have
>>originally been set much higher.
>
>>Please restate your above findings in the form of (at your option)
>>haiku, sonnet or limerick.
>
>Nanotech makes change
>Hardware will become smaller
>Need to rewrite rules
Though I had found that Antaine's offered limerick was inadequate due
to errors in scansion and rhyme, this is marvelously succinct and true
to form.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:44:47 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
Subject: New Website
I have just finished putting up my Library Data website. Right now it
concentrates on the Reavers' Deep, but I will be expanding it to include
more later.
Jimmy Simpson
nimrodd@mail.com
"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
-Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:47:23 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military
At 03:54 PM 03/11/01 EST, you wrote:
<excerpt><fontfamily><param>arial</param><smaller>Ive been trying to find
a setting that i oculd run a major military campaign
in with both starships, dropships and ground forces. A friend referred
me to
Traveller and here i am three months later still trying to work some
things
out.
The questions:
1) What are the common types/classes of ships in the Imperium? to help
me
name some vessels.
</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt>
Battleships seem to be named after people.
Cruisers have all sorts of names, planets, people, events.
There is no real pattern beyond that.
<excerpt><fontfamily><param>arial</param><smaller>2) What military
branches are there in the Imperium and where can i find
more information? Im planning on having Players play members of a
starship
that contains both dropships/fighters and houses some marines or a
landing
party. In essense theywill be playing out game sessions at any of the 3
levels. However, if this seems ridiculous from a Traveller standpoint
let me
know. (the origianl inspiration was the Starship Troopers movie and its
framing of some scenes around Mobile Infantry and others around the
Fleet)
</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt>
You know it's hard to recommend Ground Forces here without looking like a
self-serving SOB, but I covered a lot of that in the book. I has
everything you need to know about the Marines and the Army.
<excerpt><fontfamily><param>arial</param><smaller>3) What types of
conflicts (other than creating one) would be a good setting
for a large military mobilization by the imperium?
</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt>
Ibid
<excerpt><fontfamily><param>arial</param><smaller>4) This may negate the
previous questions, but am i overstepping the use of
the Imperium (one of my players is a fan of traveller from several years
back) and should i use one of the minor races as my core group)? Do they
become involved in enough fullscale mobilizations to warrant creating
this
campaign? If not, any ideas or options to keep the same flavor of my
game?
</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt>
The Imperial standard for nonhumans in the military is simple: The
members of the race have to be able to understand and obey orders, use
the same equipment as everybody else, understand the concept and scope of
the Imperium, and not have unusual environmental concerns.
Beyond that, a team centered around a minor race sounds interesting. I
suggest you look into the history of African American soldiers to see how
such minority troops might face unusual problems.
Feel free to ask me anything, but be advised that most of the answers
will be "buy the book." :)
- --
Douglas E. Berry Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
Author of GT: Ground Forces
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 18:50:49 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military
At 07:23 PM 03/11/01 EST, you wrote:
<excerpt><fontfamily><param>arial</param><smaller>What do the ships of
the Imperium look like? Im trying to find a ship that
can perform both as a carrier for a few fighters (for its own protection)
and
dropships for marines which are housed on board. Anyone have an
suggestions.
Im planning on this being my players homeship but possibly having
another
ship there as a sister ship (either a larger one with enough resources to
bail the players out of trouble or a smaller one to force the players to
bail
it out of trouble)
</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt>
Imperial ships tend to be of the "shiny wedge" school of design. Look at
Jesse DeGraff's page for ideas.
<excerpt><fontfamily><param>arial</param><smaller>Also, anyone have any
pics or descriptions of the typical Imperial NAval
officers' uniform/equpiment? Same thing for Marine?
</smaller></fontfamily></excerpt>
In Ground Forces (I warned you)
<fontfamily><param>arial</param>
</fontfamily>
- --
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
Animals who are not penguins can only wish they were.
- -Chicago reader, 10/15/82
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:00:08 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
At 09:39 PM 3/9/2001 -0600, Eris wrote:
> >there...
>
>LOL! Well, they'll be passing though a system that produces a "spice" that
>is addictive and narcotic to Aslan.
>
>Eris
So what and where is this world with the spice? If it's in the Deep, I
would like to add it to my new website?
Jimmy Simpson
nimrodd@mail.com
"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
-Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:54:15 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: New Website
>Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 20:44:47 -0600
>To: traveller@lists.ient.com
>From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
>Subject: New Website
>
>I have just finished putting up my Library Data website. Right now it
>concentrates on the Reavers' Deep, but I will be expanding it to include
>more later.
>
>Jimmy Simpson
> nimrodd@mail.com
Well, don't you just love it when you hit the send button too early?
Here is the website:
http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
Jimmy Simpson
nimrodd@mail.com
"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
-Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:15:30 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791
> Sounds good to me, John. My concern would be wrinkles: if the suit
> isn't perfectly skin-tight at every point, it would cause the
> wearer's skin to pucker. Space-hickeys, basically. So the suit
> would have to be perfectly wrinkle-free, even at the joints.
It has always occured to me that the genitalia would be especially sensitive
to this sort of problem. Special arrangements are no doubt made.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:41:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Re: New Website
- --- Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
>Well, don't you just love it when you hit the send button too early?
>
>Here is the website:
>http://home.earthlink.net/~nimrodd/LibraryData.htm
>
Looks like a load of good work.
Antaine.
~Geek code to follow~
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:41:20 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Neither Newbie Nor TML GOO....
In a message dated 3/11/01 8:26:04 PM !!!First Boot!!!, aurictech@esweeet.com
writes:
<< BTW, I finally arrived in Bosnia, following a trainup in Germany. I look
forward to having regular (though brief) e-mail access again. >>
You watch your a** boyo...be careful; real life medicine's only TL8
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 19:47:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Neither Newbie Nor TML GOO....
- --- AuricTech Shipyards <aurictech@esweeet.com>
> wrote:
>BTW, I finally arrived in Bosnia, following a trainup in Germany. I look forward to having regular (though brief) e-mail access again.
>
>ObTrav: Well, IIRC, the Imperial Army spends a lot of time on internal security missions, which may well be similar to peacekeeping....
Ugh....PK! Keep your spirits up, your wits about you and I wish you a uneventful tour.
Antaine.
~Thankful I'm retired from all that! Geek code to follow~
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:25:12 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: New Website
On 03/11/01 at 08:54 PM, Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net> said:
>>I have just finished putting up my Library Data website. Right now it
>>concentrates on the Reavers' Deep, but I will be expanding it to include
>>more later.
Great work, Jimmy!
I'm running a game set in Reaver's Deep, so this will certainly come in handy.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:55:52 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
On 03/11/01 at 09:00 PM, Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net> said:
>At 09:39 PM 3/9/2001 -0600, Eris wrote:
>> >there...
>>
>>LOL! Well, they'll be passing though a system that produces a "spice" that
>>is addictive and narcotic to Aslan.
>>
>>Eris
>So what and where is this world with the spice? If it's in the
>Deep, I would like to add it to my new website?
Jimmy, don't count on me sticking *only* to canon. <g> The world
with the spice is Daken, and the part about it being addictive to
Aslan is my own enhancement. I'm sure I'll be generating plenty of
data that "extends" any published material about the Deep as my
group travels around.
Example one: I've added a good bit of information about the
"natives" of Scotia that isn't published anywhere. Scotia is a
world of estates for Caledonian noblity, but before the nobles came
a population of low tech people lived on the island chains. Today
those primatives have been, mostly, reduced being servants and
gardeners for the estate holders, but there is still an entire
Islander Culture out there.
Example two: I've fleshed out Drellesarr a good bit, adding details
about the "Freeport"(Blackjack), the government (yes it's 0 law
level, but that's just weapon's law, there *is* a government), a
famous local bar, and a number of other things.
I suspect I've been digging through the same source material you
have. <g> Oh, btw, I don't have Khtearie as officially part of the
Gralyn Union, do you have a reference for that?
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 22:58:17 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791
On 03/11/01 at 10:15 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com said:
>> Sounds good to me, John. My concern would be wrinkles: if the suit
>> isn't perfectly skin-tight at every point, it would cause the
>> wearer's skin to pucker. Space-hickeys, basically. So the suit
>> would have to be perfectly wrinkle-free, even at the joints.
>It has always occured to me that the genitalia would be especially
>sensitive to this sort of problem. Special arrangements are no
>doubt made.
Some things are better left to the imagination...or not! <g>
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:16:09 -0500
From: Gordon Hundley <drgoon@netaxs.com>
Subject: Re: Antaine's Newbie essay
on 11/3/01 5:09 pm, Jeff Zeitlin at jzeitlin@cyburban.com wrote:
> Nanotech makes change
> Hardware will become smaller
> Need to rewrite rules
Which made me think of Chapter 24 (of the I Ching), and Barrett singing
"Change returns success". :)
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:53:46 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
That was certainly a keeper !
Well done, Hal!
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:10:01 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Newbie Essays
Jens Rydholm wrote :
> Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> > Hey Doug; I don't consider myself a newbie, or an
> > old master like yourself. What the hell am I (and
> > for that matter the others on the list in the same
> > boat)? ...:-)
>
> I believe the correct title is 'Initiate'
Which gives you free access to cult skill training and battle-magic, and the
abiity to purchase one-use rune spells.
Hmm, anyone written up the Cult of the TML Great Old Ones yet ?
Cult Rune Spells
ONE POINT SPELLS
Summon Small Penguin
Duration : Hours equal to 20 minus penguin's Int
Range : 20 yards
Reusable
A specialist rune-spell of the Berry sub-cult, freinds of the Penguin Boy
can be taught this spell which acts in a similar way to other elemental
summoning spells, but reaults in the apearance of a penguin of smaller
stature.
Two Point Spells
Ignite Flame War
Duration : Interminable Range : limited only by cross posting controls
Reusable
The friendly cult of alt.syntax.tactical allows TML cultists to have their
very own flame wars.
Summon Large Penguin
Duration : Hours equal to 20 minus penguin's Int
Range : 20 yards
Reusable
As per Summon Small Penguin, but reaults in the appearance of a penguin of
larger stature.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 01:09:04 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
At 10:55 PM 3/11/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>On 03/11/01 at 09:00 PM, Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net> said:
>
>Jimmy, don't count on me sticking *only* to canon. <g> The world
>with the spice is Daken, and the part about it being addictive to
>Aslan is my own enhancement. I'm sure I'll be generating plenty of
>data that "extends" any published material about the Deep as my
>group travels around.
>
>Example one: I've added a good bit of information about the
>"natives" of Scotia that isn't published anywhere. Scotia is a
>world of estates for Caledonian noblity, but before the nobles came
>a population of low tech people lived on the island chains. Today
>those primatives have been, mostly, reduced being servants and
>gardeners for the estate holders, but there is still an entire
>Islander Culture out there.
The only problem I have with "natives" of Scotia, is that there is already
two minor human races just next door, Rejhappur (RD 1218) and Drexilthar
(RD 1826) (and I also included Derek Stanley's Ayansh'i, does anyone know
what happened to him, or where his website has moved too), so that's two
(or three) mhr's. J. Andrew Keith, in his write up of the Caledonian
subsector in Traveller Chronicle #5 said that there are only two non-human
minor races "native" to the Caledonian subsector, the Yn-tsai and the Lhshana.
>Example two: I've fleshed out Drellesarr a good bit, adding details
>about the "Freeport"(Blackjack), the government (yes it's 0 law
>level, but that's just weapon's law, there *is* a government), a
>famous local bar, and a number of other things.
>
>I suspect I've been digging through the same source material you
>have. <g> Oh, btw, I don't have Khtearie as officially part of the
>Gralyn Union, do you have a reference for that?
Traveller Chronicle #6 is the reference, but you are right the posting is
not clear. It should read:
"The Gralyn Union is made up of Gralyn (Reavers' Deep 1735), it's moon
Askoapoy, Botany Bay (Reavers' Deep 1734) and one of the nations on
Khtearle (Reavers' Deep 1733)."
My next update will correct that page.
>Eris
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
>-----------------------------------------------------------
Jimmy Simpson
nimrodd@mail.com
"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
-Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:13:15 -0000
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
Subject: Oh, Belgium!
<SNIP>
>
>Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 16:35:39 -0800 (PST)
>From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
>Subject: Antaine's Newbie essay
>
</SNIP>
Dammit, that's the first time I've heard of a Newbie Essay Keyboard Kill.
And it's the pc at work, too... #8(
Jeff.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:03:51 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military
hal@buffnet.net wrote :-
> SLOW and FAST drug use. And since one list member pointed out
> problems with hypothermia - use specially designed flight suits that
> maintain pilot temperatures to combat such problems <grin>.
This isn't a solution.
Your metabolism is either sped up (slow) or greatly slowed (fast drug).
At least with the proposed suits you would be comfortable with the slow
drug.
Fast drug is another matter. All metabolism is slowed 60:1, IIRC. This
includes immune function, as it must. At usual body temperatures, all you
will do is rot faster.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3792
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From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)
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Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3792
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3793
Date: | 3/12/01 11:13:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, March 12 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3793
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791
Subject: The cult of TML
Re: Newbie Essays
RE: Question about the Imperial military
RE: Subject: The cult of TML
RE: Hello, and my apologies
RE: dogs & humans
Lookin For...
Re: Space Hickeys
RE: Space Hickeys
Re: Newbie Essays
re: Hello, and my apologies
RE: Lookin For...
re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
Re: Wealth
re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
Re: Question about the Imperial military
Re: Lookin For...
Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:04:05 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791
Loren wrote:
> > Sounds good to me, John. My concern would be wrinkles: if the
> > suit isn't perfectly skin-tight at every point, it would cause
> > the wearer's skin to pucker. Space-hickeys, basically. So the
> > suit would have to be perfectly wrinkle-free, even at the
> > joints.
>
> It has always occured to me that the genitalia would be
> especially sensitive to this sort of problem. Special
> arrangements are no doubt made.
With high-TL medicine there's always "offsite" storage: surgical
removal, with re-attachment as and when needed. Probably safer,
too, having the "family jewels" kept in a safe somewhere.
(Possible adventure ideas: hilarity ensues when there is a mix-up
at the hospital and the wrong, er, ... maybe not.)
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:19:15 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ian=20Cooper?= <ian_hammond_cooper@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Subject: The cult of TML
Jens Rydholm wrote :
>I believe the correct title is 'Initiate'
Frank G. Pitt:
>Which gives you free access to cult skill training
and battle-magic,
>and the abiity to purchase one-use rune spells.
<snipped RQ TML cult>
Well under the HeroWars system, that has replaced RQ
as Glorantha's game system of choice,
http:\\www.glorantha.com
this would be (as a theist cult rather than animist,
sorcerer or mystic)
The Cult of the TML
Description/Common Knowledge
The Traveller Mailing List (TML) is open to
discussions on all aspects of Traveller. It exists as
a means for the Traveller Player/GM to exchange ideas
and discuss the various aspects of the Traveller
System, and its universe.
Entry Requirements
To subscribe to the TML, send a mail message to
traveller-request@lists.ient.com
Complete a newbie assignment.
Physical Abilities
Type without rest
Mental Abilities
Compose Reply, Digest huge number of postings,
Understand Netiquette, Post Message
Virtues
Supportive, Welcoming
Affinities
Extropolate (Reference esoteric knowledge, Hold
Forth on Any Topic, Make Observation Traveller,
Digress beyond value, Invoke Canon)
Flame(Initiate flame War, Sarcastic Assault,
Willfully Misinterpet Other,Peace Through Humor,
Reductio ad absurdio, Refute reply, Personal Insult)
Gearhead (Engineer Universe on Spreadhseet, Know
How Starships Work, Understand Incomprehensible
Technology, Analyze the Imaginary)
Secret
Keyboard Kill: Allows the hero a final action in
any contest in which they previously used another
Affinity, even where one would not otherwise be
allowed.
Sacrifices
Time
Worshippers
Various: includes CT, MT, TNE and GT
Manifestations
As Digest or as mail
Holy Days
None specific
Other Side
Disputed by the various adherents.
Other Connections
Traveller culture, Citizens of the Imperium
Disadvantages
Geek image
____________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.co.uk address at http://mail.yahoo.co.uk
or your free @yahoo.ie address at http://mail.yahoo.ie
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:54:26 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays
>From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
>Subject: RE: Newbie Essays
>
>Hmm, anyone written up the Cult of the TML Great Old Ones yet ?
You missed Rune affiliation. I'd argue for 'Truth' and 'Disorder'.
>
>Cult Rune Spells
>
>ONE POINT SPELLS
>
>Summon Small Penguin
>Duration : Hours equal to 20 minus penguin's Int
>Range : 20 yards
>Reusable
>A specialist rune-spell of the Berry sub-cult, freinds of the Penguin Boy
>can be taught this spell which acts in a similar way to other elemental
>summoning spells, but reaults in the apearance of a penguin of smaller
>stature.
Shouldnt that be 'friends of Penguin Boy' ? And how is Penguin Boy linked to the Vadeli ?
>
>
>Two Point Spells
>Ignite Flame War
>Duration : Interminable Range : limited only by cross posting controls
>Reusable
>The friendly cult of alt.syntax.tactical allows TML cultists to have their
>very own flame wars.
Alt.syntax.tactical ... so that what killed the God of the Silver Ill-shut-up-now-before-the-Sending-Ones-
get-me. Hmmm, Is there an R. Kat on mil.syntax.tactical ...
>
>Summon Large Penguin
>Duration : Hours equal to 20 minus penguin's Int
>Range : 20 yards
>Reusable
>As per Summon Small Penguin, but reaults in the appearance of a penguin of
>larger stature.
Note that the God Learners attempted to warp this spell by summoning a Penguin with an INT of
infinitly negative (cf the sinking of the Jrusteli Isles).
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:08:46 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Question about the Imperial military
Patrick wrote:
<snip>
There are GT supplements for army and scouts but the navy is
missing at present. So first lets have a quick 'n dirty summary
of the Imperium's naval assets (done from memory, ain't I sad):
The Imperium's navy has three tiers. The top tier is the
"Imperial Navy", below that are numerous subsector navies
(sometimes called Colonial Navies), and below that are many
planetary navies. Colonial Navies don't always have top-of-the-
line ships but have sufficiant number to be a significant force.
Planetary navies are usually smaller and usually don't have jump
capability (they are primarily for a world's defence). Many
planetary navies are just squadrons of SDBs (system defense
boats) that use hit and run tactics (think WW2 U-boats).
The basic unit of a navy is the squadron. These are organised
into fleets. Squadron types are battle squadron ("Batron" or
"BR"), cruiser squadron ("Cruron" or "CR"), assualt squadron
("AR"), tanker squadron ("TR"), and scout squadron ("SR").
Batrons and crurons are the main force of a fleet, assault
squadrons are large troop transports, tanker squadrons are for
fast refueling, and scout squadrons are made up of recon ships
and couriers (they are considered squadrons on paper but are
usually dispersed on missions).
Batrons can be made of battleships (aka dreadnaughts) or
battleriders. (Frontier forces tend to be the former while
reinforcements tend to be the latter.): It costs to armour each
dton of warship and for jump-4 capability a drive and fuel tanks
can be about half the ship. Battleriders have no j-drive or
j-drive fuel, instead they are transported by an unarmoured
battle tender (which sits safely to the rear of any combat).
Cruisers come in a wide variety of types: heavy, light, armoured
(with extra hull armour), strike (slower, but geared for ground
attack), ...
Typical dreadnaught classes: Plankwell, Tigress (looks like a
giant pacman or "Happy Eater"), Kokirrak ... The only pictures
I've seen of battle riders/tenders show the riders as wedge-
shaped (like Star Wars), attached 6 to a tender (open frame, a
bit like the International Space Station).
Typical cruiser classes: Ghalalk class Armored Cruiser, Arakoine
class Strike Cruiser (looks like a fat beetle), Wind class Strike
Carrier (looks like Battlestar Galactica), ...
So, for example, IMTU the 214th Fleet under Admiral Romao (and
based at Glisten) is composed of BR123, BR504, CR358, CR501,
CR502, and colonial CR2510. That makes 32 capital ships, 88
support ships, and 275 battalions.
I recommend you try and get "The Spinward Marches" campaign, the
"Supplements" (Classic Reprints), and the "Fifth Frontier War"
(boardgame). All are CT products but have usable source
material. Also, you might find some stuff in the "Rebellion
Sourcebook" (for MT). *Avoid* the "Fighting Ships of the
Shattered Imperium" at all costs (not to be confused with
"Fighting Ships" in "Supplements").
Also, some of the old CT ships (especially the dreadnaughts and
cruisers) have been converted to MT and are posted to
StuffOnline, along with a partially detailed Imperial fleet
(the 214th based at Glisten).
StuffOnline: http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol
For possible conflicts ... there was a large army mobilisation on
Efate with the Imperium v the Ine Givar just before the Fifth
Frontier War, there was the Fifth Frontier War itself, or you
could do something with the aftermath: the Sword Worlds
Confederation was split in two as a result of the 5FW, rather
than think of it as a metaphor for post-WW2 Germany think of it
as a metaphor for the Middle East (the Sword Worlds as Lebanon,
the Imperium as Isreal, and the Border Worlds as the occupied
territories). You can then have an Imperial fleet action against
bases of the BWLO (Border Worlds Liberation Organiseation) that
are in the remaining Sword Worlds and attacking Imperial assets
in and around the Border Worlds.
As for adventure ideas, the one I used was for the players to be
part of Irregular Operations (aka the odd-job squad). Based on a
cruiser during the 5FW, the group of junior naval officers, NCOs
and an attached Marine were given tasks such as search and rescue
(of fighter pilots after an engagement), recon, covert transport
(behind enemy lines), etc.
How's that?
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:28:46 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Subject: The cult of TML
Ian Cooper wrote:
> The Cult of the TML
<snip>
> Holy Days
> None specific
Well we should have one then. On what day was Traveller first
published?
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:00:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Hello, and my apologies
Larsen writes:
<snipped>
>I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an oil
>delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st. I'm currently resting at a
>relative's home with a few busted limbs. Walking lessons will begin in a
>few weeks.
<snipped>
Ouch. How many D of damage is that? Hope you are back to
full hit points soon!
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:14:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: dogs & humans
DaveShayne writes:
>>FYI: a common missuse of the term "symbiosis" is to refer to a
>>mutually beneficial relationship between two organisms. In fact,
>>it means a very close relationship between two organisms. Thus,
>>a tapeworm and its host are in a symbiotic relationship. When
>>the interaction between two organisms is mutually beneficial, it
>>is called a mutualism.
>Mea Culpa.
>In my defense I'm not sure mutualism was commonly in use when
>I was learning the lingo (late seventies.)
That is not unusual, and it has started to become accepted in
that definition because of popular use. (I belately checked the
Webster's dictionary: the second definition of symbiosis is
a mutually benificial interaction. Thus, in popular use it is not
really a "missuse" of the term. Such is the evolution of a
language.)
>The way I learned it if the relationship was mutually benificial it was
>symbiotic if it was unilateraly benificial it was refered to as parasitic.
<snipped>
Broadly speaking an interaction between species in which one
benefits while the other suffers is either parasitism or predator-
prey. The line between the two is pretty blurry, and there are
parsitoids that fall in between somewhere. An interaction in
which both suffer is typically competition. An interaction in
which one benefits while the other neither benefits nor suffers
is a commensalism. When neither benefit or suffer, there is
said to be no interaction.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:57:35 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Lookin For...
Can someone help this gentleman?
>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:36:19 -0500
>From: "Georges P. Godfrin" <georgesrn@worldnet.att.net>
>Reply-To: georgesrn@worldnet.att.net
>X-Accept-Language: en
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: lkw@io.com
>Subject: Lookin For...
>Status: RO
>
>Dear Ms. Wiseman,
>
> I am looking for a Traveller based / style / type MUD / MUSH / MOO.
>If you know of any, could you please send the address? Thanks!
>
>Georges
>
>georgesrn@worldnet.att.net
>
Loren Wiseman
Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society http://jtas.sjgames.com/
SJ Games
lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
(512) 447-7866 VOX
(512) 447-1144 FAX
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 11:05:45 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com>
Subject: Re: Space Hickeys
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > Sounds good to me, John. My concern would be wrinkles: if the suit
> > isn't perfectly skin-tight at every point, it would cause the
> > wearer's skin to pucker. Space-hickeys, basically. So the suit
> > would have to be perfectly wrinkle-free, even at the joints.
>
> It has always occured to me that the genitalia would be especially sensitive
> to this sort of problem. Special arrangements are no doubt made.
I imagine that there's be something like a smooth, airtight pair of
underwear on that makes the wearer look something like a Barbie or
Ken doll - just smooth platic-y-ness where tender bits had once been.
(Where's Kenji to expound on the semiotics of the impact of
androgeny on spacer culture?)
Alternatively, you might fill the area with some sort of
non-compressive yet breathable gel that 'fills in the blanks' as it
were. You'll probably cover the whole body in something akin to
vaseline anyway to reduce chaffing. As anyone who has ever had
runner's nipple knows, chaffing is a real and present danger.
At any rate, if we compare to something like a modern wetsuit,
you don't get ultra-wedgie because the suit forces your buttocks
together making one "mono-buttock" and leaving very little space
inbetween.
Ethan
Yes, I just posted this so I could write "buttock". Heh he he heh.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:23:55 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Space Hickeys
Ethan Henry wrote:
> Alternatively, you might fill the area with some sort of
> non-compressive yet breathable gel that 'fills in the blanks'
> as it were. You'll probably cover the whole body in something
> akin to vaseline anyway to reduce chaffing.
LOL! That sounds like Bert's character in the film "Striptease" ...
> Yes, I just posted this so I could write "buttock". Heh he he heh.
From "Striptease" to "Bevis & Butthead".
Hmmm ... twisted adventure plot a brewin'!
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:27:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>Your essay assignment: How do you complain to the Imperial Government?
Good assignment, Doug!
>As an example, how would citizens go about getting the Imperial Navy to
>restrict the flight hours at a naval base's landing field?
This is a nice segue into a conversation that Luther Martin and I had a
while ago: What do people experience in the presence of gravitic drives?
If you're standing beside a hovering air/raft, do you hear anything? Are
there any visual phenomena beside or below the vehicle? What if you're
under a floating or moving grav vehicle? Do you feel pressure or anything
at all?
What if you're inside the vehicle: Do you feel your normal weight? Do
you feel inertia as you change direction or speed (probably not)?
Are there any health effects associated with gravitics? Do gravitic
technicians suffer any damage to the parts of their bodies exposed to the
drives? What about users? What about people over whom grav vehicles fly?
Here's another health issue: In a major city (like Credo, Regina, for an
easy example in my Traveller universe), there will be gravitic
thoroughfares for flight safety reasons. Will people living under these
thoroughfares suffer any health effects?
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:43:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Hello, and my apologies
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Hello again, and my apologies for being unreachable over the last
>few weeks. I had a adventure involving a taxi cab, a patch of ice, an
>oil delivery truck, and a guard rail back March 1st. I'm currently
>resting at a relative's home with a few busted limbs. Walking lessons
>will begin in a few weeks.
I hope that in the future, you can restrict adventures of this sort to
Traveller campaigns, rather than experiencing them in Real Life (tm).
Good luck, and get well soon.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 09:47:14 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Lookin For...
Closest thing i know of is Anarchy Online that is comming out this summer.
Someone on TML said they were working on a traveller online game but im sure
that is a year or 2 till release.
Hasta
- -----Original Message-----
From: Loren Wiseman [mailto:lkw@io.com]
Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 7:58 AM
To: traveller@ient.com
Subject: Lookin For...
Can someone help this gentleman?
>Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:36:19 -0500
>From: "Georges P. Godfrin" <georgesrn@worldnet.att.net>
>Reply-To: georgesrn@worldnet.att.net
>X-Accept-Language: en
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: lkw@io.com
>Subject: Lookin For...
>Status: RO
>
>Dear Ms. Wiseman,
>
> I am looking for a Traveller based / style / type MUD / MUSH / MOO.
>If you know of any, could you please send the address? Thanks!
>
>Georges
>
>georgesrn@worldnet.att.net
>
Loren Wiseman
Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society
http://jtas.sjgames.com/
SJ Games
lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
(512) 447-7866 VOX
(512) 447-1144 FAX
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:00:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
The agent is obviously unhinged: He's happy to kill people who have
already been born in order to demonstrate his loyalty to the organization
that he's infiltrated, but he balks at destroying in vitro fetuses.
There is a great Hong Kong action movie in which two undercover cops
separately infiltrate a criminal organization. Cop #1 gets in first. The
crooks suspect that Cop #2 is a cop, so to test Cop #1's loyalty, they
drive out to a deserted lot and tell Cop #1 to shoot Cop #2 -- which he
does, in the chest, trying to get close enough to the heart to look fatal
but still trying to miss heart and lungs. Then everybody drives away in
many vehicles. Cop #1 takes an exit, returns to the vacant lot, throws
Cop #2 into his car, and rushes to the hospital (which he calls on his
cell phone while en route).
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:59:43 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Wealth
In message <EF761B879251D44A995B1BEEEBAC55D3097EEB@RWSCAMIS004.asera.com
>, William Lane <wlane@Asera.com> writes
>Anyone going to denmark any time soon?
>
>I place total faith ion the face value of my Beer Buck(tm) 8P
>
>Hasta
>
>Bill
and it's just the right time of year to get a bottle of Albani
paaskebryg too!
- --
Martin Hardgrave
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:28:37 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
At 10:00 AM 03/12/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>The agent is obviously unhinged: He's happy to kill people who have
>already been born in order to demonstrate his loyalty to the organization
>that he's infiltrated, but he balks at destroying in vitro fetuses.
Hello Glenn,
It is a possibility for GM's to portray the Agent as someone who is
unhinged. In some respects, I can see it as being a situation where he
doesn't have much in the way of scruples against killing people who are a
threat to the Imperium, yet define his "threat" parameters a bit more um,
ethically? It is entirely possible, that he saw a chance to have something
of a normal family life without having to go through channels to do it. He
doesn't have any records that point to these kids in any way. He can
rationalize his kidnapping as a means of *saving* the children instead of
for what it was - kidnapping. He easily could have tipped the mother and
father off anonymously, and delivered the kids *after* the danger was past.
He could have continued with his mission instead of going awol. I'm
certain that what ever "managers" still in existance for the
megacorporation would like to have a talk with the man who took their money
for the assassination, but was never seen again afterwards. All sorts of
fun plotlines to work off of after wards <grin>.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:34:11 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military
At 09:03 PM 03/12/2001 +1100, you wrote:
>hal@buffnet.net wrote :-
>> SLOW and FAST drug use. And since one list member pointed out
>> problems with hypothermia - use specially designed flight suits that
>> maintain pilot temperatures to combat such problems <grin>.
>
>This isn't a solution.
>Your metabolism is either sped up (slow) or greatly slowed (fast drug).
>At least with the proposed suits you would be comfortable with the slow
>drug.
>
>Fast drug is another matter. All metabolism is slowed 60:1, IIRC. This
>includes immune function, as it must. At usual body temperatures, all you
>will do is rot faster.
Hello Robert,
Interesting question for you: if Fast slows the metabolism of the host
body, would it not also slow down the metabolism of the bacteria as well as
viruses that may be present in the body?
In any event <grin> - it almost sounds as if the FAST and SLOW drugs should
be removed from "canon" or at least modified (much like computers were
modified in later editions of TRAVELLER). The whole idea of using the FAST
drug is to expand out the life support of the fighters. I imagine it is
not very popular with the fighter pilots for one particular reason -
"KINKS" <grin>. After sitting up in a cockpit for hours, they are going to
feel some serious pains after getting out of the cockpit.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:32:27 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Lookin For...
Try MudConnector.com
Loren Wiseman wrote:
> Can someone help this gentleman?
>
> >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:36:19 -0500
> >From: "Georges P. Godfrin" <georgesrn@worldnet.att.net>
> >Reply-To: georgesrn@worldnet.att.net
> >X-Accept-Language: en
> >MIME-Version: 1.0
> >To: lkw@io.com
> >Subject: Lookin For...
> >Status: RO
> >
> >Dear Ms. Wiseman,
> >
> > I am looking for a Traveller based / style / type MUD / MUSH / MOO.
> >If you know of any, could you please send the address? Thanks!
> >
> >Georges
> >
> >georgesrn@worldnet.att.net
> >
>
> Loren Wiseman
> Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
> Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society http://jtas.sjgames.com/
> SJ Games
> lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
> (512) 447-7866 VOX
> (512) 447-1144 FAX
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 13:11:26 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: Transportable Wealth (was Re: Wealth)
On 03/12/01 at 01:09 AM, Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net> said:
>>Example one: I've added a good bit of information about the
>>"natives" of Scotia that isn't published anywhere. Scotia is a
>>world of estates for Caledonian noblity, but before the nobles came
>>a population of low tech people lived on the island chains. Today
>>those primatives have been, mostly, reduced being servants and
>>gardeners for the estate holders, but there is still an entire
>>Islander Culture out there.
>The only problem I have with "natives" of Scotia, is that there is
>already two minor human races just next door, Rejhappur (RD 1218)
>and Drexilthar (RD 1826)
I put "natives" in quotes, because they aren't really natives in the
minor race sense. They are the descendents of marooned crews and
passengers left there during the Long Night by pirates. Scotia was
a good place to dump prisoners, stick them on an island and take
off. Many ended up stuck there for life and their descendents are
the "natives" of Scotia...IMTU, anyway. <g>
>(and I also included Derek Stanley's
>Ayansh'i, does anyone know what happened to him, or where his
>website has moved too), so that's two (or three) mhr's. J. Andrew
>Keith, in his write up of the Caledonian subsector in Traveller
>Chronicle #5 said that there are only two non-human minor races
>"native" to the Caledonian subsector, the Yn-tsai and the Lhshana.
Derek is still around, though not on the TML. His site is at
http://members.home.net/nightrim/Home.html
>>Example two: I've fleshed out Drellesarr a good bit, adding details
>>about the "Freeport"(Blackjack), the government (yes it's 0 law
>>level, but that's just weapon's law, there *is* a government), a
>>famous local bar, and a number of other things.
>>I suspect I've been digging through the same source material you
>>have. <g> Oh, btw, I don't have Khtearie as officially part of the
>>Gralyn Union, do you have a reference for that?
>Traveller Chronicle #6 is the reference, but you are right the
>posting is not clear. It should read:
>"The Gralyn Union is made up of Gralyn (Reavers' Deep 1735), it's
>moon Askoapoy, Botany Bay (Reavers' Deep 1734) and one of the
>nations on Khtearle (Reavers' Deep 1733)."
Okay.
>My next update will correct that page.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3793
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3794
Date: | 3/12/01 4:43:44 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Monday, March 12 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3794
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Newbie Essays
Re: Question about the Imperial military
re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
RE: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
latin
Re: Cult of the TML
Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
Re: latin
Re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3793
Re: latin
Re: latin
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3793
Re: latin
Re: Traveller Holy Day
Re: Traveller Holy Day
Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
Re: Traveller Holy Day
Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
Gravitics (was Re: Newbie essays)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:02:21 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays
Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au> writes:
>You missed Rune affiliation. I'd argue for 'Truth' and 'Disorder'.
A Traveller cult would definitely need the Movement rune.
(And if we're allowed to use Hero Wars runes, the Cosmos rune as well)
Also, don't forget the TML's dreaded Spirit of Reprisal, the Keyboard
Kill. It attacks offenders in spirit combat then possesses them,
rendering them temporarily helpless and making them spray beverages
over any nearby computer hardware.
INT 2D6+6 POW 5D6
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:02:22 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military
Spm073@aol.com writes:
>What do the ships of the Imperium look like? Im trying to find a ship that
>can perform both as a carrier for a few fighters (for its own protection) and
>dropships for marines which are housed on board. Anyone have an suggestions.
Why not the good old Azhanti High Lightning Class cruiser? At 60,000
tons, it's large enough to operate independently, but not so big that
a 500,000 ton enemy battleship couldn't give it serious problems.
It also carries 150 marines, and 80 fighters (its own crew is 395).
Best of all, the details are (presumably- I've not seen it) printed in
the Supplements reprint from Classic Traveller.
If you need something smaller, then the Kinunir class colonial
cruisers are equally good fun. 1250 tons, 35 marines, 45 crew. No
fighters, though. Again, plenty of details and deckplans can be found
in the Adventures reprint.
Both ships are basically flattish wedges with "tailplane"-like dorsal
fins.
GT: Ground Forces also includes details of a more specialised
Marine-carrier starship. (Incidentally, when I spotted the little
detail the artist included on the cargo deck of that ship, I nearly
dropped the book laughing).
Bear in mind that naval combat in Traveller falls into the
"battleship" rather than the "aircraft carrier" paradigm. In other
words, big heavily-armoured warships can only be defeated by equally
big, heavily-armed opponents. Fighters are generally ineffective in a
major fleet action, although they are good for scouting, harrassing
the enemy, ground support, and dealing with minor opponents.
>Also, anyone have any pics or descriptions of the typical Imperial NAval
>officers' uniform/equpiment? Same thing for Marine?
Has anything ever been printed in canon about Imperial Navy uniforms?
"Space-black" seems to be a common colour in general SF works, from
Doc Smith through to David Weber... Of course, I'd think that
high-tech level tailored vacc-suits (with chameleon surface options -
black if you don't want to be detected, flourescent orange if you do)
will be standard wear during combat.
>Im also looking or plot/campaign threads to run these people through, so Id
>appreciate any feedback.
The Third Imperium hasn't been involved in any huge _life-and-death_
wars since its early days (other than a Civil War and, in a different
version of the timeline, a Rebellion). However, it's so big that
there's almost always going to be a border conflict going on somewhere
or other, and occasionally these grow so large that local forces can't
handle it, and the Imperium has to mobilise all its resources.
Quick summary of potential opponents:
The Zhodani and the Solomani: two large human states, both disliking
the Imperium on (different) ideological grounds, and both involved in
major wars with the Imperium in the last century or so.
The Aslan and the Vargr: two alien races, both divided into lots of
competing political units and involved in constant low-grade military
adventures and grabs for territory (again, each for different
reasons).
Border states, client states, etc: too many to list (the Sword Worlds
are one example, mentioned in a previous post).
Internal dissent: since each planet in the Imperium has local
autonomy, and many of them have built their own private battlefleets,
there is an ongoing need for the Imperial Navy to act as a policeman
and make sure things don't get out of hand.
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:24:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
On Mon, 12 Mar 2001, Glenn Goffin wrote:
> The agent is obviously unhinged: He's happy to kill people who have
> already been born in order to demonstrate his loyalty to the organization
> that he's infiltrated, but he balks at destroying in vitro fetuses.
Oh, if he's unhinged, then so is a lot of America. Valuing fetal life
higher than walking-around, living-life life is considered a religious
obligation by a loud, obnoxious religious minority in this country that
loves to pretend they're the majority, even though they really are just
loud.
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:44:16 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
>> The agent is obviously unhinged: He's happy to kill people who have
>> already been born in order to demonstrate his loyalty to the organization
>> that he's infiltrated, but he balks at destroying in vitro fetuses.
>Oh, if he's unhinged, then so is a lot of America. Valuing fetal life
>higher than walking-around, living-life life is considered a religious
>obligation by a loud, obnoxious religious minority in this country that
>loves to pretend they're the majority, even though they really are just
>loud.
>Kiri
Totally agree with kiri 8P
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:55:46 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: latin
I never studied Latin and well i saw this in the topic of a message
anyone know what it means?
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
materiari?
for all i know it is an insult. but my curiosity got the better of me.
heres to hoping it is not offensive.
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:58:01 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Cult of the TML
>From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ian=20Cooper?= <ian_hammond_cooper@yahoo.co.uk>
>
>Well under the HeroWars system, that has replaced RQ
>as Glorantha's game system of choice,
>
>http:\\www.glorantha.com
>
>this would be (as a theist cult rather than animist,
>sorcerer or mystic)
God Learner heretic ! Meldek ! What was good enough for our forefathers is good enough for us !
>Sacrifices
> Time
Coool. Can we sacrifice her daughter too ? Wait. She already did that herself.
Kenji. Famile Spofulam. Tendency to buy large amounts of RL ammunition to sacrifice in the mystic
land of 'Oregon'.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:20:45 -0600
From: Chris Olson <chris@pdaguy.com>
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
Glen Goffin wrote:
> What do people experience in the presence of gravitic drives?
> If you're standing beside a hovering air/raft, do you hear anything? Are
> there any visual phenomena beside or below the vehicle? What if you're
> under a floating or moving grav vehicle? Do you feel pressure or anything
> at all?
>
> What if you're inside the vehicle: Do you feel your normal weight? Do
> you feel inertia as you change direction or speed (probably not)?
>
> Are there any health effects associated with gravitics? Do gravitic
> technicians suffer any damage to the parts of their bodies exposed to the
> drives? What about users? What about people over whom grav vehicles fly?
Ok, a cool set of questions I feel like answering. Please bear in mind
that this in IMHO and IMTU so you can take it or leave it, there are no
canon referents laying around (although I would like to hear about
anything I contradict on my merry way, and oh yeah, this will probably
exceed reasonable length :-)
Gravitic drives function by altering the exchange of gravitons in thier
environment. When two or more objects intereact gravitcally they are
exchanging these quantum particles. The gravitic drive functions by
deflecting the particles and preventing this interection. This
particular definition of how gravitc drives work has a number of
implications related to the questions above. Lets address them one at a
time:
1) What do people experience in the presence of a gravitic drive?
Hearing? Sight?
The only noise aI can imagine a gravitic drive making is whatever
electronic humm that the circuitry would produce. Looking at the force
required to lift an air/raft, I would say the humm would be noticable,
but not to loud, similar to a transformer on a pole. The visual effects
would be quite interesting. Let me explain...
Gravitons are exchanged between two objects. During the exchange, the
objects are moved closer to each other in proportion to the gravitons
exchanged. Reflecting the gravtions results in a net force away from
the source of the gravitons, proportional to the masses involved. You
can tune both the strength and the angle of reflection to provide lift
and thrust similar to a helicopter. Note that these reflected gravitons
will want to attract objects toward the air/raft starship! Note that
the reflection would be unfocused and lamp-light-like in nature (rapidly
spreading out in all directions).
There, with that explanation, we can imagine what a low-level air/raft
looks like. It sould be surrounded by small bits of dust and dirt drawn
toward the air/raft (rather like an intact on a large engine). Due to
the unfocused nature, and the fact that it is in fact not completely
negating gravity (to keep the air/raft from starting to climb) only
small objects are in any real danger of fly off the ground. It is
concievable that an air/raft can accumulate a significant junk of grit
on the bottom, but cycling the gravity on/off should be able to
discourage any large scale accumulations. But the area around the
bottom of the air/raft will be filled with swirling debris, grass being
pulled up toward the air/raft, etc.
Standing on the ground near an air/raft (within a few feet) would result
in a similar sensation to walking on ice, as your feet and loweer legs
are drawn slightly toward the air/raft.
2) What happens if a grav vehicle flies over you? At close range and far?
Like a helicaopter, you feel nothing if the vehicle is some distance
away, but if it is fairly close (left as an exercise to the reader) ,
you could be lifted from ou feet and pulled up into the bottom of the
air/raft. At speed, this would be a lift and drop plus tumble effect
(in addition to any urge to duck!)
3) Do passengers feel thier normal weight? Does inertia matter?
Nope, no weight without a gravitc generator to pull them toward the
air/raft. Inertia rules still apply though. Without the gravity
generator, you will need to be buckled in.
4) Any health risks involved with gravitics? To technicians? Those
living under flyways?
Health risks are probably more to the techs than to the people living
under the flyways (although a small, but vocal minority points to
statistical anomolies to people living in these flyways being more
susceptable to disease than others, but other people point out that the
health care for these people is not up to par because only the poor live
along these flyways, etc.).
Techs working on these devices, if they are on, may be subjected to
shear forces, especially as they get closer to the actual device
itself. The energies involved may also have slightly detriemental
effects on thier health (anybody care to speeculate on the effects of
powerful electro-magnetic-gravitic fields with steep gradients on living
tissues?)
Injuries to techs will probably range from micro-fractures of the bones
to ligament and connective tissue dislocation. Safety regs for working
on these things probably stress keeping hands and feet outside the
fields, and not to pass unbraced equipment through it either (to avoid
secondary injury from the tool making a sudden sharp turn to the right,
for instance)
Chris Olson
PS. Another post! That's two in two weeks? Am I delurking or just bored?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:30:54 +0100
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: latin
William Lane wrote:
> anyone know what it means?
>
> Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
> materiari?
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood?
I might be misinformed, but this is the meaning I know. I don't know the
language, I learn it by rote.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:33:25 +0100
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> Oh, if he's unhinged, then so is a lot of America. Valuing fetal life
> higher than walking-around, living-life life is considered a religious
> obligation by a loud, obnoxious religious minority in this country that
> loves to pretend they're the majority, even though they really are just
> loud.
What?!?! You mean they *lied* to me?
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:04:01 -0000
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3793
<SNIP>
>From: Glenn Goffin Subject: re: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
>
>The agent is obviously unhinged: He's happy to kill people who have already
>been born in order to demonstrate his loyalty to the organization that he's
>infiltrated, but he balks at destroying in vitro fetuses.
</SNIP>
Glenn,
I believe the point was made that the agent had killed only people whom he
considered to be 'bad' anyway, so it wasn't quite the same as killing two
unborns. As in everything though, YMMV - there are some "people" who *I*
think the world could manage without, but they are all someone's sons and
daughters... more or less.
Obtrav: There's this secret agent who's been 'asked' to kill a couple of
unborn fetuses...
Jeff.
Jeff.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: 12 Mar 2001 22:14:03 +0000
From: Paul Campbell <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: latin
On 12 Mar 2001 22:30:54 +0100, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> William Lane wrote:
> > anyone know what it means?
> >
> > Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
> > materiari?
>
> How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood?
*ZOT*
>
> I might be misinformed, but this is the meaning I know. I don't know the
> language, I learn it by rote.
>
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> | jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
> | ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
> * http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
- --
Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24
http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net
jupiter: 10:13pm up 62 days, 11:53, 4 users, load average: 0.09, 0.26, 0.30
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:28:51 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: latin
I believe it's "How much wood would a wood chuck chuck if a wood chuck
could chuck wood?"
Rob D.
On 12 Mar 2001, at 12:55, William Lane wrote:
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
To: "'traveller@lists.ient.com'" <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Subject: latin
Date sent: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 12:55:46 -0800
Send reply to: traveller@lists.ient.com
> I never studied Latin and well i saw this in the topic of a message
>
> anyone know what it means?
>
> Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
> materiari?
>
> for all i know it is an insult. but my curiosity got the better of me.
>
> heres to hoping it is not offensive.
>
> Bill
>
Rob
- ---
Rob Davenport 0301 C438875-B zh- so- 713
- ---
If a man is alone in the forest, with no woman around, and he
says something, is he still wrong?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 16:37:47 -0600
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3793
Steve (Bloo) Daniels spake unto us:
> Subject: Re: Lookin For...
>
> Try MudConnector.com
>
> Loren Wiseman wrote:
>
> > Can someone help this gentleman?
> >
> > >Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 19:36:19 -0500
> > >From: "Georges P. Godfrin" <georgesrn@worldnet.att.net>
> > >To: lkw@io.com
> > >Subject: Lookin For...
> > >
> > >Dear Ms. Wiseman,
> > >
> > > I am looking for a Traveller based / style / type MUD / MUSH / MOO.
> > >If you know of any, could you please send the address? Thanks!
> > >
> > >Georges
I got a hit at the site Bloo mentioned.
It's:
Traveller's Mud (Trav) [Amylaar's 3.2@286 driver, LPMud
2.4.5-tec LIB]
Unfortunately, it's a D&D type game.
David
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:12:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Victor Abraham Delnore <vad9m@unix.mail.virginia.edu>
Subject: Re: latin
Isn't that "How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could
chuck wood"?
- --Abe Delnore
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
| V. A. Delnore vad9m@virginia.edu |
| Graduate Student (804) 971-8806 |
| Corcoran Department of History 1821 Jefferson Park Ave #4 |
| University of Virginia Charlottesville VA 22903 |
| Mica mica parva stella miror quaenam sis tam bella (Anon. lyric) |
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:17:12 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Holy Day
> Well we should have one then. On what day was Traveller first
> published?
What is "published?" The day the ink is dry? The day it comes off the truck
from the printer? The day it is assembled . . . offered for sale . . . first
copy sold?
In any case, I have no clue.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:27:52 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller Holy Day
On 12 Mar 2001, at 18:17, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > Well we should have one then. On what day was Traveller first
> > published?
> What is "published?" The day the ink is dry? The day it comes off the truck
> from the printer? The day it is assembled . . . offered for sale . . . first
> copy sold?
The obvious High Holy Day is Marc Millar's birthday, with lesser days for
certain important GOO's
And the Spirit of Reprisal just has to be the Ethically Challanged Female
Aslan in Comfortable Shoes (on a Near-C Rock, using magic Terran
Confederation Technology).
> In any case, I have no clue.
<Tongue inserted laterally>
You mean GDW didn't document everything when it was creating the holy
scriptures? Just what kind of Mickey Mouse cult is this anyway?
</Tongue inserted laterally>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:28:16 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
This is sort of OT, but not totally.
I'm looking for some information on the enlisted
military ranks for the US, Great Britain and France
in WWII. I've been all through google and there are
some conclusions that I can draw, but some things
are unclear.
For example, it seems that Sergeant First Class (E7)
and First Sergeant (E8) were created later? I don't
find mention of them in the documents that I can
confirm are from WWII era. In fact, I can't confirm
any of the NCO ranks above E6 for the WWII
era, for US or British:
E6 was Master Sergeant (US), Chief Sergeant Major (GB).
Above that, for Great Britain for example, I find both
Regimental Sergeant Major and "Warrant Officer".
Very difficult to get a clear picture.
I'm sure one or several grognard here must be able
to help. I would greatly appreciate it.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:08 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
In-Reply-To: <3AAD5B90.A883C17A@playnet.com>
Greetings dear hearts, especially Bloo.
US Army Enlisted Ranks (1941)
Chief Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer junior grade
Master Sergeant
First Sergeant
Technical Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Sergeant
Corporal
Private First Class
Private
US Army Enlisted Ranks (1945)
Chief Warrant Officer
Warrant Officer junior grade
Master Sergeant
First Sergeant
Technical Sergeant
Staff Sergeant
Sergeant
Corporal
Private First Class
Private
Great Britain Army
Warrant Officer Class 1
Warrant Officer Class 2
Warrant Officer Class 3 (No longer exists!)
Colour or Staff Sergeant
Sergeant
Corporal
Lance Corporal
Private
France Army
Adjudant-Chef
Adjudant
Sergent-Chef
Sergent
Caporal-Chef
Caporal
Soldat de 1ere Classe
Soldat de 2eme Classe
Aspirant
Anything else?
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:16:11 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller Holy Day
It's the day on which GDW rested.
So, call it the day when content was delivered to
the printer.
- -bloo
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > Well we should have one then. On what day was Traveller first
> > published?
>
> What is "published?" The day the ink is dry? The day it comes off the truck
> from the printer? The day it is assembled . . . offered for sale . . . first
> copy sold?
>
> In any case, I have no clue.
>
> LKW
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:24:02 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
Megan Robertson wrote:
> In-Reply-To: <3AAD5B90.A883C17A@playnet.com>
> Greetings dear hearts, especially Bloo.
>
> US Army Enlisted Ranks (1941)
> Chief Warrant Officer
> Warrant Officer junior grade
> Master Sergeant
> First Sergeant
> Technical Sergeant
> Staff Sergeant
> Sergeant
> Corporal
> Private First Class
> Private
Much thanks. May I ask where this comes from?
I haven't seen anything from the era with First
Sergeant in it. Nice to know it was there.
> Great Britain Army
> Warrant Officer Class 1
> Warrant Officer Class 2
> Warrant Officer Class 3 (No longer exists!)
> Colour or Staff Sergeant
> Sergeant
> Corporal
> Lance Corporal
> Private
Most of this is modern isn't it?
Wither the Chief Sergeant Major and the
Regimental Sergeant Major (Warrant Officer
equivalent some of my sources say)?
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:44:11 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Gravitics (was Re: Newbie essays)
Glenn Goffin wrote :-
<several good questions on 'the grav drive experience'>
It really depends on how the dratted things work. If contragravity is
literally 'antigravity', so that grav-drive powered vehicles, etc. behave
like they have negative mass(!) it could get interesting...
> If you're standing beside a hovering air/raft, do you hear anything?
Depends on whether or not horizontal movement requires auxiliary thrust. It
could be as noisy as a modern aircraft (props? turbojets? rockets?).
> Are there any visual phenomena beside or below the vehicle?
Does the gravitic effect affect the column of air under the vehicle, or just
the interaction between the vehicle and the planet?
If the air is disturbed, it could behave like a column of hot air (lighter).
You would get a 'heat haze' rippling effect under the vehicle... just like
'Star Wars', IIRC.
> What if you're under a floating or moving grav vehicle? Do you feel
> pressure or anything at all?
If there is any interaction, watch for tidal effects. There might be a
tendency for you to accelerate towards the ground, for example.
> What if you're inside the vehicle: Do you feel your normal weight?
If the pilot or manufacturer has built that feature in, then yes. Otherwise,
I'd think you would be weightless.
> Do you feel inertia as you change direction or speed (probably not)?
No, if the inertial compensators are working. What? Your air/raft doesn't
have compensators? I'm not going for a ride in that thing.
> Are there any health effects associated with gravitics?
It should be no more dangerous than flight by other means in terms of
overall safety.
> Do gravitic technicians suffer any damage to the parts of their
> bodies exposed to the drives?
Tidal effects, if you want them, could be messy.
> What about users? What about people over whom grav vehicles fly?
Tidal effects fall off with the cube of distance, so it's unlikely.
Given the effects of microgravity on the cytoskeleton, there's a theoretical
risk that large tidal effects could do things to cell function...
"Stop grav drives now! No gravport in our backyard!"
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3794
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3795
Date: | 3/13/01 7:20:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, March 13 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3795
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Fast Drug (was : Re: Question about the Imperial military)
Re: Traveller Holy Day
Traveller Holy Day... This Time for sure
Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
Traveller Holy Day...Almost sorta
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3794
Re: Traveller HHD
Amber Zone Classifications
Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
MegaTraveller Journal #4
Ok, question for you guys...
Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
unbelievable!
Re: Astronomy question
Re: unbelievable!
Re: Amber Zone Classifications
OFFLINE @ home for a couple days
RE: Amber Zone Classifications
RE: Amber Zone Classifications
Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
CSM
Re: Amber Zone Classifications
RE: Amber Zone Classifications
Re: Gravitics (was Re: Newbie essays)
Re: Gravitics (was Re: Newbie essays)
Duck! Crowded orbits
Re: Duck! Crowded orbits
Re: CSM
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:44:16 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Fast Drug (was : Re: Question about the Imperial military)
hal@buffnet.net wrote :-
> Interesting question for you: if Fast slows the metabolism of the
> host body, would it not also slow down the metabolism of the bacteria
> as well as viruses that may be present in the body?
If it does, then viruses, being dependent on host machinery to reproduce,
will be slower to spread. Other effects mediated by viral products e.g. cell
lysis, will work if the temperature is right.
Bacteria? Depends on how fast drug works. Unless it is a horrendously dirty
agent (blocks all relevant processes and others on the side) or nanomagic,
it may well have no effect at all.
While there are certain metabolic pathways that all Earthly life has in
common, there are many which are peculiar to certain phyla/orders/species.
> I imagine it is not very popular with the fighter pilots for one
> particular reason - "KINKS" <grin>. After sitting up in a cockpit
> for hours, they are going to feel some serious pains after getting
> out of the cockpit.
The cockpit is likely to be a liquid-filled tank with gelled or padded
interior walls. The pilot's g-tolerance will be greatly increased, allowing
rapid tactical manoeuvre (sustained ~10G if breathing air, ~25G if breathing
liquid).
Hmm... auxiliary rockets? gravitic overdrive?
Pressure sores are much less likely to form with such a womb tank, even on
fast drug as written. You could even alter the tonicity* of the fluid to
prevent skin wrinkling (and float the pilot off of the walls - obviating the
pressure sore problem), with a separate liquid or gas supply for
ventilation.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
* tonicity = effective osmotic pressure.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:44:37 -0600 (CST)
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller Holy Day
On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > Well we should have one then. On what day was Traveller first
> > published?
> What is "published?" The day the ink is dry? The day it comes off the truck
> from the printer? The day it is assembled . . . offered for sale . . . first
> copy sold?
I'd go for the date of the Origins Wargame Convention in Staten Island, NY
in 1977, as that's when the first BFB says Traveller was first sold.
Come to think of it, someone should find out what date that was and do
something to commemorate it next year. It'll be the 25th anniversary...
Greg Kettler
"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you
may not actually need an explicit loop exit. The loop will be terminated
automatically at the appropriate moment."
-Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:00:29 -0600
From: "Shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
Subject: Traveller Holy Day... This Time for sure
Quoting from the same article...DOH
Marc says sometime in June of 77
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:04:53 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
Chris Olsen wrote :-
> (anybody care to speeculate on the effects of powerful electro-
> magnetic-gravitic fields with steep gradients on living tissues?)
Depends on how fast they rise and fall, if they are time-varying, and the
field strength in the tissue of interest.
From an electromag standpoint alone, inducing ventricular fibrillation is
nasty enough (golfers dropping dead in electrical storms missed by lightning
strikes several metres away, for example).
As we crank up the field strength :-
fitting from direct cortical stimulation
muscle contractions - tetany - respiratory arrest
bone fractures, limb loss (burns, muscle 'crush injury', altered blood flow)
blood coagulation ('shorts out')
bone calcination (turns to ash)
It does make CSC-style magnetic shielding for vehicles problematic.
Remember that oxygen is paramagnetic (nitrogen is diamagnetic) too, so air
will be displaced (oxygen into field, nitrogen out).
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:56:53 -0600
From: "Shadowcat" <res053z0@gte.net>
Subject: Traveller Holy Day...Almost sorta
Didnt find the Traveller Holy Day, But quoting an interview with
Marc in Traveller Digest #7, the founding day of GDW itself, is June
22nd, 1973
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:30:21 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3794
In a message dated 12-Mar-01 6:43:44 PM Central Standard Time,
owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
> Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
> materiari?
>
> for all i know it is an insult. but my curiosity got the better of me.
>
It refers (loosely) to woodchucks and their capacity for wood chucking.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:48:33 -0500
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Traveller HHD
Loren Wiseman wrote:
>What is "published?" The day the ink is dry? The day it comes off the truck
>from the printer? The day it is assembled . . . offered for sale . . . first
>copy sold?
>In any case, I have no clue.
Marc's intro to FFE001 says Traveller was first sold at Origins '77. Assuming that's true, it narrows things down to a 3-4 day window. Somebody on the list probably knows which days those are...
Also, what Spirit Magic spells does the Cult of Traveller teach? Befuddle for sure (aka Cite Obscure Canon). Other possibilities: Speedart (Near-C Rock), Harmonize (Conform to OTU), Ignite (Flame-war, that is), and Disrupt (Keyboard-kill).
Anyhow...
Trent
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:27:57 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Amber Zone Classifications
Hello Folks,
Something piqued my curiosity last Saturday night...
Why aren't *all* of the sword worlds considered to be amber zones
relative to Imperial Citizens? I ask this question because as far as I
know, dueling is not considered to be normal within the confines of the
Imperium, yet supposedly common in Sword worlds and Sword world influenced
worlds (ie border worlds). Any comments?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:49:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
- --- "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
> wrote:
>This is sort of OT, but not totally.
>
>I'm looking for some information on the enlisted
>military ranks for the US, Great Britain and France
>in WWII
>Above that, for Great Britain for example, I find both
>Regimental Sergeant Major and "Warrant Officer".
I might be able to clear up the Brit Question. Warrant Officer (WO) and Regimental Sergent Major (RSM) both started as Crown Sergent.
The "Warrant" is the King/Queens Warrant and there are WO1's and WO2's. A RSM is a Warrant Officer class 1. A Company Sergent Major (CSM) is a Warrant Officer class 2 or WO1 and WO2 respectively.
WO1's are obviously the "higher" rank and would be the RSM of a Battalion, Brigade, etc. As the Formation increases in size, the RSM is, obviously, more senior.
>Very difficult to get a clear picture.
hope this helps.
Antaine.
~Geek code to follow~
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:05:05 -0500
From: "Hunter Gordon" <trav@RPGRealms.com>
Subject: MegaTraveller Journal #4
Does any have a copy of MegaTraveller Journal #4? I need the information in that issue on Gateway Sector. Please contact me off-list at hunter@RPGRealms.com
Thanks in advance!
Hunter
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 20:09:33 -0700
From: "A. Batishko" <abatish@utah-inter.net>
Subject: Ok, question for you guys...
A while back, I wrote Space Dock, a tool for windows that allows you to
build Traveller ships with the GURPS modular design system. I even went
through the trouble of getting it licensed with SJ Games. I've been thinking
about doing an update. Does anyone out there still (or ever) use it? If so,
having another interested soul might be enough to get me motivated to do an
update...
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:55:18 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
At 06:24 PM 03/12/01 -0600, you wrote:
>Megan Robertson wrote:
>> Master Sergeant
>> First Sergeant
>Much thanks. May I ask where this comes from?
>I haven't seen anything from the era with First
>Sergeant in it. Nice to know it was there.
First Sergeant is ore of a title than rank. A 1SG is the senior NCO of a
company-sized formation. The actual pay grade is equal to Master Sergeant.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
- Xaonon, in alt.atheism
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:28:13 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
Antaine wrote:
> I might be able to clear up the Brit Question. Warrant Officer (WO) and Regimental Sergent Major (RSM) both started as Crown Sergent.
There's a rank that needs to be in the Imperial military.
Thanks very much. That helps a lot!
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:20:10 -0700
From: "samir" <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: unbelievable!
Today is history, In the Denver Colorado newspaper, Rocky Mountain News: for
March 12th. .. the Comic Strip by Bill Amend title Foxtrot.
Jason fox appears in the first panel and says. "All your base are belong to
us."
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:35:43 -0800
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Astronomy question
>1) I know the approximate figures for globular clusters, but I'm
>wondering how many stars are in a large open cluster and how
>much closer than average they are?
Open clusters are pretty sparse. A cluster like the Hyades or
Pleiades might have a few thousand stars in a volume of a
thousand cubic parsecs - so 1-3 stars per cubic parsec. Much
sparser than globular clusters.
Bruce
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:51:57 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: unbelievable!
this meme is dead.
The local Fox News report did a story on it last night,
which means that *all* of the local Fox News shows
have, or will, run the story soon.
bloo
samir wrote:
> Today is history, In the Denver Colorado newspaper, Rocky Mountain News: for
> March 12th. .. the Comic Strip by Bill Amend title Foxtrot.
>
> Jason fox appears in the first panel and says. "All your base are belong to
> us."
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:34:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Amber Zone Classifications
- --- hal@buffnet.net
> wrote:
>Hello Folks,
> Something piqued my curiosity last Saturday night...
>
> Why aren't *all* of the sword worlds considered to be amber zones
>relative to Imperial Citizens?
IMTU the Sword Worlds and the Solomani Area still under Solomani control are Amber/Red Travel zones for Imperial citizens as rated by the TAS.
Antaine.
~Geek code to follow~
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 22:32:16 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: OFFLINE @ home for a couple days
I'll be OFFLINE at my home e-mail address for a couple of days while the
contractors **finally** get to work on the fire damage. First up, the
painters'll be in Wednesday & Thursday (if all goes according to plan).
Because of this, tonight was spent and tomorrow night will be spent packing
and moving stuff away from the walls (books, bookcases, books, tables,
books, computers, books, desks, books, couches, books, chairs, books, beds,
books, oh, and did I mention books?)
If you desperately need to get ahold of me, contact me at jedegraf@cisco.com
Jesse
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:45:43 -0800
From: "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: RE: Amber Zone Classifications
It would seem to me that the Sword Worlds and Solomani couldn't afford to be
too belligerent. Imperial trade must be fairly lucrative.
Jeffrey Yin
- --- hal@buffnet.net
> wrote:
>Hello Folks,
> Something piqued my curiosity last Saturday night...
>
> Why aren't *all* of the sword worlds considered to be amber zones
>relative to Imperial Citizens?
IMTU the Sword Worlds and the Solomani Area still under Solomani control are
Amber/Red Travel zones for Imperial citizens as rated by the TAS.
Antaine.
~Geek code to follow~
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:36:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: RE: Amber Zone Classifications
- --- "Jeff" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
> wrote:
>It would seem to me that the Sword Worlds and Solomani couldn't afford to be
>too belligerent. Imperial trade must be fairly lucrative.
Yes, but TAS puts an Amber classification on all worlds in general in these regions and Red on worlds close to the border during times of tension. My approach was to keep my players 'edgy'. It also kept an avenue open for me to curtail quasi-legal activities if they were getting out of hand. Because I like running games in the border regions, my players never had a reason to question how Naval vessels seemed to appear 'out of the blue'.
That is IMTU though.
Antaine.
~Geek code to follow~
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 08:44 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
In-Reply-To: <3AAD68A2.49235373@playnet.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
Sources many and various - my other great passion apart from roleplaying
is the study of uniforms and medals.
These are all WW2 lists, as requested.
In the UK, a Warrant Officer Class 1 and a Warrant Officer Class 2 may
have a different title according to the appointment held. WO2 is usally a
Sergeant Major, he may be a Company Sergeant Major or a QuarterMaster
Sergeant depending on what he's doing. Regimental Sergeant Major is a WO1
posting, but not every WO1 is a RSM (you only have one per regiment). The
most senior WO1 in the British Army is the 'Academy Sergeant Major' who is
RSM to the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst (UK equivalent to West
Point).
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 01:11:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
- --- mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
> wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <3AAD68A2.49235373@playnet.com>
>Greetings dear hearts.
>
>Sources many and various - my other great passion apart from roleplaying
>is the study of uniforms and medals.
>
>These are all WW2 lists, as requested.
>
>In the UK, a Warrant Officer Class 1 and a Warrant Officer Class 2 may
>have a different title according to the appointment held. WO2 is usally a
>Sergeant Major, he may be a Company Sergeant Major or a QuarterMaster
>Sergeant depending on what he's doing. Regimental Sergeant Major is a WO1
>posting, but not every WO1 is a RSM (you only have one per regiment). The
>most senior WO1 in the British Army is the 'Academy Sergeant Major' who is
>RSM to the Royal Military Academy, Sandhurst (UK equivalent to West
>Point).
>
>Hugs and kisses,
>
>Mexal.
No Arguements here. However to clarify the above point, usually if there are two WO1's in a Unit, you will find that the WO1 who is NOT the RSM is filling a non-regimental position and will never fill a role as an RSM. Usullay He/She is in the Admin or Q stream. The only a Q or Admin WO1 RSM is usually the Corps RSM position for RAOC (Royal Army Ordinance Corps) unit. These positions are not as numerous as one would expect. Also RQSM (Regimental Quatermaster Sergent Major......) position can be filled by a Staff Sergent (The old Crown Sergent). This rank is denoted by three Chevrons topped by The Crown. A QM or Quarter Master is usually a Captain or some units will have a Major.
Hope it helps. :o)
Antaine.
~Geek code to follow~
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:10:16 -0000
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk>
Subject: CSM
> Most of this is modern isn't it?
> Wither the Chief Sergeant Major and the
> Regimental Sergeant Major (Warrant Officer
> equivalent some of my sources say)?
>
> bloo
I think you'll find that the C in CSM stands for 'Company', not
'Chief'...
try this link for an interesting article about the British ranks in WWII
and a comparison with their German equivalents...
http://www.britwar.co.uk/features/features1.htm
Matt
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:58:09 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: Amber Zone Classifications
On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 21:27:57 -0800 hal@buffnet.net writes:
> Hello Folks,
> Something piqued my curiosity last Saturday night...
>
> Why aren't *all* of the sword worlds considered to be amber zones
> relative to Imperial Citizens? I ask this question because as far
> as I
> know, dueling is not considered to be normal within the confines of
> the
> Imperium, yet supposedly common in Sword worlds and Sword world
> influenced
> worlds (ie border worlds). Any comments?
>
>
> Hal
Aren't all non-Imperial worlds classified as (at best) Amber Zones?
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:29:47 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Amber Zone Classifications
Perry wrote:
> Aren't all non-Imperial worlds classified as (at best) Amber
> Zones?
Yes, I remember reading somewhere that TAS (who set Amber Zone
status) have a blanket ruling: all non-Imperial worlds should be
considered as Amber Zones by Imperial citizens. However, this is
not reflected in the maps/stats that TAS produce as TAS services
are not restricted to Imperial citizens. (For example, there may
be a Swordie merchant who uses TAS ... most Swordie Worlds would
*not* he an Amber Zone to *him*.)
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:02:19 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: Gravitics (was Re: Newbie essays)
"Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au> writes:
>> Do you feel inertia as you change direction or speed (probably not)?
>No, if the inertial compensators are working. What? Your air/raft doesn't
>have compensators? I'm not going for a ride in that thing.
I expect that "sporty" grav vehicles will have the inertial
compensators turned down a notch or two, so the pilot gets to feel
those Gs when he puts the pedal to the metal...
(maybe it's adjustable, so when you're carrying the shopping balanced
on the back seat, or taking Granny for a spin, you can put the comps
back to full)
If grav plates need to be paired, then presumably open-top air/rafts
won't have them, and the passengers should then feel the effects of
inertia and weightlessness.
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:01:23 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Gravitics (was Re: Newbie essays)
Robert O'Connor wrote:
>Glenn Goffin wrote :-
>> Are there any health effects associated with gravitics?
>It should be no more dangerous than flight by other means in terms of
>overall safety.
Since I'd imagine that most PCs use their ship's air/raft to go jaunting
around the planet whilst their ship is having its annual maintenance...
An unmaintained, open topped vehicle capable of moving in excess of
100km/h in three dimensions, with a computer expert having overridden
the saftey limiters and being controlled* by someone using either
Grav Craft-0 or Pilot-1...
Overall they might be safe. Specific applications could well be very
dangerous.
*in the loosest sense of the word.
Phil Kitching
- --
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:27:56 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Duck! Crowded orbits
Found this page from a newsletter this morning:
http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/RealTime/JTrack/3D/JTrack3D.html
NASA's 3D satellite and spacecraft tracking app (in Java).
I was slightly surprised at how many objects are in low and geosync
orbit (and it only shows 500 some). I know space is big, but it still
looked crowded to me.
ObTrav's that come to mind - approaching a low tech (5-8) planet that
has put *tons* of stuff in orbit but without adequate tracking makes
getting dirtside a minor adventure in itself; would higher tech worlds
be able to consolidate satellite functions into fewer
satellites/stations and thus clean up local space?
(see
http://liftoff.msfc.nasa.gov/realtime/jtrack/Spacecraft.html
for a 2d version)
Rob
- ---
Rob Davenport 0301 C438875-B 713
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:37:48 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Duck! Crowded orbits
>ObTrav's that come to mind - approaching a low tech (5-8) planet that
>has put *tons* of stuff in orbit but without adequate tracking makes
>getting dirtside a minor adventure in itself; would higher tech worlds
>be able to consolidate satellite functions into fewer
>satellites/stations and thus clean up local space?
Well, with gravitic technology, you wouldn't need satellites in
geosynchronous orbits any more. They're only useful because they stay in one
place, so you could easily substitute them with a grav platform hovering
five, ten, fifteen kilometers up. They'd have less coverage, but not fatally
so.
Radio antennas without the antenna, basically.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:11:52 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: CSM
At 12:10 PM 03/13/01 -0000, you wrote:
>> Most of this is modern isn't it?
>> Wither the Chief Sergeant Major and the
>> Regimental Sergeant Major (Warrant Officer
>> equivalent some of my sources say)?
>>
>> bloo
>
>I think you'll find that the C in CSM stands for 'Company', not
>'Chief'...
In the US Army it is "Command" to note E-9s who are the senior NCO in
battalion or larger units. The only higher enlisted rank is SMA, the
Sergeant Major of the Army.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3795
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3796
Date: | 3/13/01 4:27:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Tuesday, March 13 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3796
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
Re: unbelievable!
Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
Re: Duck! Crowded orbits
RE: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
Fiction
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791
Re: latin
Re: Traveller Holy Day
Re: Fast Drug (was : Re: Question about the Imperial military)
Re: Astronomy question
RE: Amber Zone Classifications
Fire, Fusion & Steel II
Re: Amber Zone Classifications
Re: Jump-1 question
re: Amber Zone Classifications
A Question for the List
Re: Vac Suits and air pressure
Hardware Wars
Deck Plans
Re: Question about the Imperial military
Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
Re: A Question for the List
Re: Deck Plans
[www] 14 Mar 2001 - Freelance Traveller Updated
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:13:25 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
At 09:28 PM 03/12/01 -0600, you wrote:
>There's a rank that needs to be in the Imperial military.
>Thanks very much. That helps a lot!
I wanted to make changes like that, but was told that one of the things
that would be very difficult to get changed would be the ranks.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 07:14:23 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: unbelievable!
At 11:51 PM 03/12/01 -0600, you wrote:
>this meme is dead.
It was in Time. Yep. Deader than disco.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:51:45 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
Antaine wrote:
[snip excellent stuff from multiple posters]
> Hope it helps. :o)
It does, greatly.
Another question: What is the difference between a
Colour Sergeant and a Staff Sergeant?
- -bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:14:48 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Duck! Crowded orbits
(Ah, a good cross with the grav effects thread. :)
On 13 Mar 2001, at 9:37, Paul Drye wrote:
> Well, with gravitic technology, you wouldn't need satellites in
> geosynchronous orbits any more. They're only useful because they stay in one
> place, so you could easily substitute them with a grav platform hovering
> five, ten, fifteen kilometers up. They'd have less coverage, but not fatally
> so.
>
> Radio antennas without the antenna, basically.
I suppose you could have satellites at any altitude with minimal CG effort.
The power requirements for a stationary position obviously dimishing with
altitude. And some range could probably be found or reserved to avoid high-
flying aircraft and low-flying suborbitals.
I had been originally thinking, if you've got a highport station, it would
likely do a lot of current satellite's functions but would be close at hand
for repairs, etc. Assuming the station has the coverage and orbit desired.
Maybe smaller stations at different locations to get better/required coverage,
act as relays etc.
Rob
- ---
Rob Davenport 0301 C438875-B 713
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 09:50:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Let Sleeping Dogs Lie
>From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
>Totally agree with kiri 8P
Me too.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 18:13:05 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Fiction
With Marc Miller's permission, I'm copying this this here. You may see it in
one or two other places.
Basically, I sent Marc a copy of my novel Behind the Throne a while ago, and
here's what he has to say about it....
"Martin J Dougherty is the latest Traveller writer to turn novelist. His
first novel, Behind the Throne (From Highbridge Press:
(www.highbridgepress.com) is a politico-military tale set in the Fantasy
kingdom of Valdir. While many novelists seem to be unable to tell a complete
story in one volume, Dougherty has managed it admirably with Behind the
Throne.
Behind the Throne is Fantasy, so relevance to Traveller is oblique. That
said, feuding nobles and palace politics are much the same the universe
over, so the book might yield a few ideas in that arena.
Primarily, though, it's just a good fun read. Martin's real-world research
into military history and personal combat comes through in the many battle
and fight scenes, while the memorable characters struggle with a desperate
but plausible situation.
Overall, Behind the Throne is a good read and bodes well for Martin's future
career. It is available on Amazon.com and direct from the publisher."
In fact I've just released another novel - The Eye of Glory. Any of my books
can be ordered through bookstores, Amazon, Barnes & Noble or direct from the
publishers. The relevant URLs are:
Behind the Throne: http://www.highbridgepress.com/
The Eye of Glory: www.hekaforge.com
In Glory Die: http://www.fictionworks.com/ebooks.htm
A Brevet for the Guillotine: http://www.23house.com/
OBTRAV: Not really, unless you count my continued efforts to find a home for
the Great Traveller Novel.
Regards,
MJD
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:38:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3791
In mail you write:
>> Sounds good to me, John. My concern would be wrinkles: if the suit
>> isn't perfectly skin-tight at every point, it would cause the
>> wearer's skin to pucker. Space-hickeys, basically. So the suit
>> would have to be perfectly wrinkle-free, even at the joints.
>
> It has always occured to me that the genitalia would be especially sensitive
> to this sort of problem. Special arrangements are no doubt made.
Anyplace the body is concave rather than convex will be a problem. The
typical solutions involve shaped pads held in place by the suit.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:44:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: latin
In mail you write:
> On 12 Mar 2001 22:30:54 +0100, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>> William Lane wrote:
>> > anyone know what it means?
>> >
>> > Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam
> possit
>> > materiari?
>>
>> How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood?
>
>
> *ZOT*
That's "Zotz" and be careful where you point that finger, it's loaded!
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:50:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller Holy Day
In mail you write:
>>> Well we should have one then. On what day was Traveller first
>>> published?
It's *obviously* the Emperor's Birthday.
So, Marc, what's your birthday? :-)
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:57:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fast Drug (was : Re: Question about the Imperial military)
In mail you write:
> The cockpit is likely to be a liquid-filled tank with gelled or padded
> interior walls. The pilot's g-tolerance will be greatly increased, allowing
> rapid tactical manoeuvre (sustained ~10G if breathing air, ~25G if breathing
> liquid).
Actually, the pilot's g-tolerance will be well above those figures
*without* the tanks. Because in space, you have to change course with
the main drive. All the "steering jets" do is change the direction the
ship *points* and they can spin a small ship pretty fast without
generating large g-forces.
This means that the pilot is not taking g-loads "head to foot" but
"chest to back". Which means blood pooling is a *much* smaller factor.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka shadow{G})
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 11:34:38 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Astronomy question
"Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >1) I know the approximate figures for globular clusters, but I'm
> >wondering how many stars are in a large open cluster and how much
> >closer than average they are?
>
> Open clusters are pretty sparse. A cluster like the Hyades or
> Pleiades might have a few thousand stars in a volume of a
> thousand cubic parsecs - so 1-3 stars per cubic parsec. Much
> sparser than globular clusters.
Actually, I did some more research and the results surprised me.
While there are often more than 1,000 stars per cubic parsec in a
globular cluster, the largest and densest open clusters can be
pretty impressive too. I've run into figures as high as 100 stars per
cubic parsec and found examples of ones that have 10+ stars per
parsec. Far better for travel than our local average of around 2
parsecs between stars.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:31:58 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Amber Zone Classifications
al writes:
>Hello Folks,
>Something piqued my curiosity last Saturday night...
>Why aren't *all* of the sword worlds considered to be amber zones
>relative to Imperial Citizens? I ask this question because as far as I
>know, dueling is not considered to be normal within the confines of the
>Imperium, yet supposedly common in Sword worlds and Sword world
>influenced worlds (ie border worlds). Any comments?
IIRC, the suppliment "The Spinward Marches" specifies that all
non-Imperial worlds should be considered Amber Zone for Imperial
citizens.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 13:45:47 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
Subject: Fire, Fusion & Steel II
Hello Everyone:
Does anyone know where I can get ahold of a copy of the "Fire, Fusion & Steel
II" book?
John W. Fox
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:19:45 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: Amber Zone Classifications
> > Aren't all non-Imperial worlds classified as (at best) Amber
> > Zones?
>
> Yes, I remember reading somewhere that TAS (who set Amber Zone
> status) have a blanket ruling: all non-Imperial worlds should be
> considered as Amber Zones by Imperial citizens. However, this is
> not reflected in the maps/stats that TAS produce as TAS services
> are not restricted to Imperial citizens. (For example, there may
> be a Swordie merchant who uses TAS ... most Swordie Worlds would
> *not* he an Amber Zone to *him*.)
Yeah, but the Swordie might automatically consider all *Imperial* worlds
to be Amber...
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:28:21 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: Jump-1 question
>>Thanks for the info. I'll probably modify this to where the costs
>> are modified relative to whatever world/economy they're dealing with
at
>> the moment. Give the ECMs a chnce to 'buy low, sell high' as it were.
>
> *nods* But remember 'If the money is this easy, why isnt everybody
> doing it ?' - if you see an easy profit
> opportunitiy, there should be 3-5 other Free Traders/ECMs trying to
> cut the same deal. Who all have
> to be got rid of, one way or another ...
Well, I suspect that other ECMs *are* doing this. That's how they make a
profit (most NPC ECMs don't supplement their incomes with "adventuring").
The trick for an indy Merchant ship is to find a resource that you can
resell at a profit that isn't so big as to attract the MegaCorps, but
isn't so small as to quickly dry up.
Of course, if all sorts of merchants are buying a product, then the price
is going to go up, even if it is 'outdated' tech. Supply & demand, after
all. Also, some tech probably won't be reduced in price; a 9mm pistol
may be technologivcally dwarfed by a laser rifle, but it still has enough
uses that it will probably sell for close to full price.
And if a PC goes to a high TL world hoping to get lower TL stuff cheap,
they may be in for a rude suprise... "Jump-1 drives? Are you kidding?
We sold the last of those antiques decades ago!"
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 14:45:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Amber Zone Classifications
>From: hal@buffnet.net
> Why aren't *all* of the sword worlds considered to be amber zones
>relative to Imperial Citizens? I ask this question because as far as I
>know, dueling is not considered to be normal within the confines of the
>Imperium, yet supposedly common in Sword worlds and Sword world
influenced
>worlds (ie border worlds). Any comments?
In an Imperium that permits its members to go to war with one another, a
few duels aren't going to raise much fuss. Duelling is a matter of local
law, anyway.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:48:19 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: A Question for the List
I was looking thru one of my boxes of Traveller stuff, didn't know that I
had two editions of High Guard, when I ran across something that I
completely don't remember . Does anyone know anything about "Far Away; The
Magazine of Speculative Gaming"? I seem to have volume #1 but no others.
Dan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 23:19:14
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Vac Suits and air pressure
The older members of the list may have heard this story before.
As part of my Air Force flight training ("non-rated crewman"), I went
through an explosive decompression as part of my altitude chamber
orientation. They pumped the main chamber down to around 45,000 ft altitude,
then popped a large valve to the airlock where I was standing with some
others. We were all wearing only flight suits. In a few seconds we went from
near sea level to around 35,000 ft equivalent altitude, around 20% normal
(sea level) atmospheric pressure, about 150 mm Hg. IIRC, this about the
limit before you can develop the bends. This is not vacuum, but close. No
one suffered from decompression sickness (DCS), but I did develop a bad ear
infection from the rapid pressure change.
The objective of the exercise was to show us the effects of an explosive
decompression (there is a very loud noise, a fog forms, and you feel like
you were punched in the chest) and to give us a chance to have to don our
oxygen masks under "emergency" conditions. We knew the explosive
decompression was coming and where our oxygen masks were located. We were
all able to locate, don, and activate the masks within one minute or so with
no problems. We had previously gone above 35,000 ft more slowly (in ten to
fifteen minutes) and removed our masks to see what our individual symptoms
were and to become familiar with the equipment. At these altitudes you have
to "pressure breathe" to get air into your lungs. The human body is almost
airtight. A fly had come into the chamber with us and was not able to get
off the ground at these altitudes.
Well trained Traveller crewmen would know where the emergency equipment is
located and how to use it. They should be able to survive an explosive
decompression with minimal damage unless injured. A passenger might not be
so well prepared and could have serious problems if no assistance was
available. Perhaps an emergency spacesuit could also be overpressurized for
use as an individual decompression chamber.
DCS is a serious problem, but it does not kill you nearly as quickly as
breathing vacuum. I seem to recall some discussions about using gases other
than nitrogen (argon?) in undersea work to avoid DCS problems (heavier gases
than helium are needed to avoid the Donald Duck voice).
John
>Rob O'Connor sez,
>
>>Yep, the bends or decompression sickness (DCS) is the big concern.
>>
>>Decompression regime :-
>>1 hour breathing 100% oxygen at 760mmHg pressure (1 atmosphere)
>>Depressurisation from 760 -> 500mmHg, hold for 12 hours
>>Depressurisation from 500 -> 200mmHg (another 40 minutes) -> EVA
>>This carries a 2% chance of decompression sickness per person-day of EVA.
>
>Wow! Takes a lot longer than I thought.
>
>>I would rule that in the case of an explosive decompression, a character
>>has
>>(2 X End) seconds before losing consciousness.
>
>--
> Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 15:29:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Hardware Wars
I found my xerox copies of these articles last night while working on my
novel, which also used to be the setting of my old TU. If anyone wants to
read them I could make copies for postage and copying.
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:38:37 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
Subject: Deck Plans
I know it has been mentioned before, but does someone out there have
symbols and engines drawn up for use in deck plans. I am looking for some
for use with Adobe Illustrator.
Jimmy Simpson
nimrodd@mail.com
"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
-Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 01:00:34 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Question about the Imperial military
Peter Trevor writes:
>The Imperium's navy has three tiers. The top tier is the
>"Imperial Navy", below that are numerous subsector navies
>(sometimes called Colonial Navies), and below that are many
>planetary navies.
Though the planetary navies aren't strictly speaking Imperial. My guess is,
however, that they are automatically Imperial reserves and can be called up by
the Imperium at will. Alternatively each treaty of annexation/joining set out
the conditions under which the planetary forces must be made available for the
Imperium.
>Colonial Navies don't always have top-of-the-line ships but have sufficient
>number to be a significant force.
There's an unresolved discrepancy between canonical descriptions of colonial
navies and the canonical description of how they are raised and funded. The
following is my take on how to explain this discrepancy and is therefor not
canon (Note: TLs are GT TLs).
The typical colonial navy
- -------------------------
Although the colonial navies are just as much Imperial organisations
as the Imperial Navy and transfers back and forth between them is very
common, they are _separate_ organisations. Imperial military taxes are
paid by individual worlds to their subsector duke. The duke passes along half
to his sector duke and retains the other half. The subsector duke uses his
cut to pay for his subsector forces: the [Name of Duchy] Colonial Navy,
Colonial Army, and Colonial Marines.
In theory each subsector in the Imperium has a duke and a colonial navy
roughly the size of an average Imperial fleet. Since most subsector navies
have just the one fleet, the terms 'subsector/colonial navy' and
'subsector/colonial fleet' are often used interchangably, but this is not
correct. In practice some subsectors lack the population to rate a duke and
the economic strength to support credible subsector forces. In these cases
the subsector usually belongs to a neighboring duke who will often maintain
two fleets, one in each subsector. An example is the Duchy of Regina Navy
which consists of two fleets, the 1156th in Regina and the 1264th in Jewell.
Additionally a few subsector navies in the Imperial core are so big that for
convenience they are split into two fleets, like the Duchy of Saregon Navy
which consists of the 1021th and the 1112th.
Colonial navies are often percieved as comic-opera outfits composed
exclusively of low-tech ships and worn-out navy hand-me-downs crewed by
inexpert weekend warriors. There is a small amount of truth in this, but
not much. Colonial crew is usually less experienced overall than the IN,
mostly due to the IN's habit of recruiting the cream of the colonial navies,
but the difference in efficiency ratings is usually only a few percent as
there are transfers the other way when experienced officers and ratings
move back to their local navies after a period in the IN, either because
they want to settle down and have families or because the colonial navies
offer significant promotions to personnel with IN experience.
As for the ships, some colonial navies _are_ mostly composed of old IN
retirees. Until Strouden reached TL 12 a few years ago, the Duchy of Lunion
Navy was happy to buy such ships, because the best that could be build
locally was TL 11. The Duchy of Regina Navy is even willing to take obsolete
TL 11 IN ships because the best they can produce locally is TL 10. But navies
with big TL 12 shipyards in their own subsectors mostly consist of brand new,
top-of-the-line ships. Which doesn't prevent IN crewmen from poking fun at
them.
- ---------------------------------
>Planetary navies are usually smaller and usually don't have jump capability
>(they are primarily for a world's defence).
The character generation system allows a character to join a planetary navy and
still learn jump-related skills with no restrictions. It is propable that most
planetary navies have _some_ jump-capable vessels. As for their size, their
combined budgets are 70% of the total military budget with the remaining 30%
divided equally between the subsector navies and the regular IN, so they should
be much larger in toto. Much of that will be in the form of deep meson sites
and orbital fortresses, though.
>Batrons can be made of battleships (aka dreadnaughts) or
>battleriders.
Battleriders are usually equal in size to cruisers. While they are ton-for-ton
tougher than ships of equivalent size, I doubt a 30,000 T battlerider could
stand in battle against an equivalent number of 300,000 T battleships. So a
BatRon is propably more often made of of carriers than of riders (Even though
the one canonical example we have claims to be one carrier with 7 riders).
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:07:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
- --- "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
> wrote:
>
>Another question: What is the difference between a
>Colour Sergeant and a Staff Sergeant?
>
>-bloo
A Colour Sgt. was responsible for the King/Queen's Colours and/or Regimental Colours from the Age when they were carried into battle. Same rank as a 'Staff Sgt. Different duties. In the Highland Regiments a Colour Sgt would be responsible for the Piping during battle. I hear they gave up having a piper pipe them to battle as it draws snipers. <weg>
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:07:48 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: A Question for the List
>Does anyone know anything about "Far Away; The Magazine of Speculative
>Gaming"? I seem to have volume #1 but no others.
I have a copy of #1 as well, and I never saw any others. Too bad, too -- the
Keith brothers seemed to be the minds behind their Traveller coverage.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:22:25 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Deck Plans
Jimmy Simpson wrote:
>
>
> I know it has been mentioned before, but does someone out there have
> symbols and engines drawn up for use in deck plans. I am looking for
> some for use with Adobe Illustrator.
>
> Jimmy Simpson
> nimrodd@mail.com
>
> "The avalanche has already started.
> It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
> -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)
Yeah, if you can translate them there are some MacDraw templates and a
pict file with all of them in it it at:
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/deckplans.html
Illustrator _ought_ to import vector pict files...These arent' mine,
they're Zane Healy's though.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:22:54 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: [www] 14 Mar 2001 - Freelance Traveller Updated
Freelance Traveller, the Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller® Resource has
posted its most recent update (dated 4 March; we had problems posting to
the server) to http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller and
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/.
In this update:
- Chapter thirteen of _The_Hostile_Stars_, Fred Ramen's ongoing serial
story, has been posted to Raconteur's Rest.
- Three new website reviews can be found in LinkLooks
- The Published Products list has been updated to reflect the recent
release of the next of the Classic Reprints.
- Minor formatting fixups to several articles throughout the site.
* Please note that "Default.htm" is no longer required when accessing
* Freelance Traveller's home page - Shortcuts using it will still work, for
* a time, but you should update all references as soon as possible.
Your questions, comments, and ideas are always welcome at Freelance
Traveller. Please write to freelancetraveller@yahoo.com with any and all
of them, as we are in the process of reconfiguring the forms, and they may
be temporarily disabled. Freelance Traveller depends on the good will of
Traveller fans both to visit our site and justify our existence, and to
write for us, making our existence possible.
Freelance Traveller is mirrored at http://w3.execnet.com/jeffz.
Freelance Traveller wishes to extend its thanks and appreciation to The
Traveller Downport (http://www.downport.com) and to Executive Network
Information Systems (http://www.execnet.com) for hosting services. Without
organizations willing to cooperate with Freelance Traveller's ever-growing
needs, we would be unable to bring you the articles and other resources
that have made Freelance Traveller one of the premier Traveller sites on
the 'net.
®Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture
Enterprises, 1977-2000. Use of the trademark in
this notice and in the referenced materials is not
intended to infringe or devalue the trademark.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin, Editor
Freelance Traveller - The Electronic Fan-Supported Traveller® Resource
http://come.to/FreelanceTraveller
http://www.downport.com/freelancetraveller/Default.htm
freelancetraveller@yahoo.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3796
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From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3797
Date: | 3/14/01 8:05:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, March 14 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3797
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [TML] Traveller Holy Day
Re: CSM
Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
RE: A Question for the List
re: A Question for the List
Re: Latin
Re: latin
RE: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3795
Far & Away Vol. 1
The Carrillian Assembly in Reaver's Deep
Re: A Question for the List
Re: Amber Zone Classifications
RE: Far & Away Vol. 1
Re: latin
Re: Vac Suits and air pressure
Re: Fast Drug (was : Re: Question about the Imperial military)
www.SJGames com is getting slooooow....
Re: Question on cloning...
Getting too old for this caper
Re: www.SJGames com is getting slooooow....
RE: Amber Zone Classifications
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:21:08 -0500
From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Traveller Holy Day
>Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 18:44:37 -0600 (CST)
>From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
>Subject: Re: Traveller Holy Day
>I'd go for the date of the Origins Wargame Convention in Staten Island, NY
>in 1977, as that's when the first BFB says Traveller was first sold.
>Come to think of it, someone should find out what date that was and do
>something to commemorate it next year. It'll be the 25th anniversary...
>
> Greg Kettler
*blinks* Whoa! Here I am, living on Staten Island, and I didn't even know
it was anything close to a Traveller Mecca! I feel... a lot better about
being on Staten Island, now. =)
Be great if they still held Origins here. I wouldn't have to look at the
expense it would take to attend and cringe. =)
Cheers
- ---
==============================================================
Jonathan McDermott http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@
- ------------------------------------------------------------
"Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."
-Steve Wozniak
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:26:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Re: CSM
- --- Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> Most of this is modern isn't it?
>> Wither the Chief Sergeant Major and the
>> Regimental Sergeant Major (Warrant Officer
>> equivalent some of my sources say)?
>>
>> bloo
>
>I think you'll find that the C in CSM stands for 'Company', not
>'Chief'...
Yes Matt, you are correct. CSM = Company Sgt. Maj. and RSM = Regimental Sgt. Maj.
They are both Warrant Officers today but there are now 2 classes of WO...WO1 (higher rank) and WO2.
They have never been the same rank even before the issuing of the King/Queen's Warrant. A CSM looks after a Company and an RSM looks after a Battalion Formation or higher.
The Duties of an RSM is Dress, Discipline and, Unit History. A CSM has similar duties but is also the "johnny on the spot" when the ballooon goes up...he handles distribution of ammo, co-ords Cas-evacs with the Medic and many more tasks within the company on ops freeing up the OC (Officer Commanding) to do his job of keeping a handle on the disposition of his Coy. with regard the En. CSM is also effectively Coy 3IC if the Skipper and the 2IC buy it.
Maybe Mexal can share her excellent insight and expand on this as I operate from memory alone and maybe also help with the Origins of Colour Sgt. as well?
Antaine.
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:28:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Mostly OT: WWII Military Ranks
>From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
>I wanted to make changes like that, but was told that one of the things
>that would be very difficult to get changed would be the ranks.
Well, things change over time. Maybe at some point in the 1100+ years of
the Third Imperium, there was a Regimental Sergeant Major rank or whatever
else is desired.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 19:31:39 -0500
From: "C Michael" <swordworlder@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: A Question for the List
I have issue #4, or what was to have been an issue. It is a collection of
unpublished work. I assume that issues 2 & 3 exist, but I have never seen
them. Jim Vassilakos would be the one to ask. His web site seems to indicate
that he has a copy of issue #2.
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
>Does anyone know anything about "Far Away; The Magazine of Speculative
>Gaming"? I seem to have volume #1 but no others.
I have a copy of #1 as well, and I never saw any others. Too bad, too -- the
Keith brothers seemed to be the minds behind their Traveller coverage.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 16:32:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: A Question for the List
>From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
>Does anyone know anything about "Far Away; The Magazine of Speculative
>Gaming"? I seem to have volume #1 but no others.
I think it was called "Far and Away." I think I have issues 1 and 2. I
bought them (used for $1 each, as I recall) because I liked the cover art.
I don't remember what's in them.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:07:50 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: Latin
On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:42:18 -0500 (EST), William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
wrote:
>I never studied Latin and well i saw this in the topic of a message
>anyone know what it means?
>Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
>materiari?
>for all i know it is an insult. but my curiosity got the better of me.
>heres to hoping it is not offensive.
Not insulting, but there's at least one newsgroup that would consider it
offensive.
"How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?"
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 20:11:10 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: latin
On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:42:18 -0500 (EST), Paul Campbell
<kemitix@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>On 12 Mar 2001 22:30:54 +0100, Jens Rydholm wrote:
>> William Lane wrote:
>> > anyone know what it means?
>> > Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
>> > materiari?
>> How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood?
>*ZOT*
*SPLORT*
Nice to know I'm not the only RHODent here...
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:20:39 -0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
Looking at my FFS1 TL11 Dragonfly class air/raft I wouldn't want to stand
behind it as it has a HEPlaR Thruster generating 2 tons of thrust. Some of
my other grav vehicles used turbo jets, and many of them used turbines to
produce power. I think this would make them quite noisy. Certainly I would
restrict them from built up areas.
Traffic offence, Sonic emissions above a proscribed level.
The HePlaR thruster on many grav vehicles is particularly frightening.
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 17:32:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
Antony Farrell writes:
> The HePlaR thruster on many grav vehicles is particularly frightening.
Hm..as I recall the smallest HEPlaR thruster was 100 kN, which at an exhaust
velocity of 4e7 meters/second is 2e12 watts, or about the equivalent of a
0.5 kiloton nuclear weapon every second. Fun ;)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:44:32 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3795
> Didnt find the Traveller Holy Day, But quoting an interview with
> Marc in Traveller Digest #7, the founding day of GDW itself, is June
> 22nd, 1973
Fiat. Chosen because June 22 1941 was the day the Germans invaded the USSR,
and the first GDW game was a boardgame of that invasion (Drang Nach Osten).
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:45:30 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Far & Away Vol. 1
- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
To: traveller mailing aa list <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 7:32 PM
Subject: re: A Question for the List
Was written:
>I think it was called "Far and Away." I think I have issues 1 and 2. I
>bought them (used for $1 each, as I recall) because I liked the cover art.
> I don't remember what's in them.
You are right the inside does say Far and Away. The cover is a bit more
ambigous and the cover art is quite nice. Two Megatraveller articles were
written by J Andrew Keith, "Planetfall" and "The Compleat Starport".
William H Keith, Jr. wrote the "You are There Column" titled "Special
Delivery".
Turned up a copy of "Space Opera" while I was rooting around, I remember
looking at it after I bought it but never played it. I also found my copy
of D&D's Deities and Demigods with the Cthulhu, Melnibonean and Nehwon
Mythos as well as near pristine copies of the little D&D book Supplement IV
Gods, Demi-gods and Heroes and Bushido by Phoenix Games.
I've got to find the box with the Fasa Ship Plans. I seem to remember
there being Hotel and Space Station plans and a copy of Boot Hill in it as
well. Its either around here somewhere or in storage.
Regards Traveller would it be appropriate to post a list somewhere of what
CT and Megatraveller publications I have in case someone wants me to look
something up/check a reference? My CT collection is pretty strong.
Dan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:49:24 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: The Carrillian Assembly in Reaver's Deep
On 03/13/01 at 09:24 PM, eris@pcola.gulf.net said:
Here's a write up for the Carrillian Assembly in Reavers' Deep as
it exists IMTU as of 1119. I drew on information I found in
various sources (1), but, as always, extended things as I desired.
I hope some of you may find it useful and/or entertaining.
Eris
-------------------------------------------------------------
The Carrillian Assembly (1119)
The Carrillian Assembly is the second largest human-dominated
independent political state in the Reavers' Deep Sector. The
Carrillian Assembly is spread across parts of four subsectors and
is composed of 21 member systems. One system, Yarhfahl, is a
client of the Assembly, but is not an active member.
Drexilthar Subsector
Sarrad 2129
Yarhfahl 2228 (client)
Datinar 2230
Ildrissar 2326
CARRILL 2330
Lindritar 2429
Urlaqqash Subsector
Yaggoth 2530
Boran 2628
Syreon 2730
Lyresse 2828
Rothman 2829
Drinsaar Subsector
Lanixohn 2033
Kaihadd 2034
Taraan 2133
Sian 2234
Iskara 2431
Santol 2433
Fahinar Subsector
Istieru 2532
Faranim 2632
Astorga 2633
Lanisteg 2732
Gramarye 2932
The Carrillian Assembly was formed in 519, when a number of worlds
in the Drexilthar and Fahlnar subsectors fought wars which
threatened to plunge the region into a general interstellar war.
The Imperium, wishing to maintain this area as a buffer between
themselves and the Aslan, stepped in and "suggested" they
peacefully settle their differences. A series of conferences held
in the quiet backwater Carrill system (specifically, Blair Rock,
Carrillian Belt, 2330) led to an agreement to form a federation of
systems for the regulation of trade, economic coordination and
common defense. The Articles of Assembly were signed later that
year, and designated the Belt as the capital of the new federation.
Blair Rock was renamed Capital and is the home of the Assembly
goverment. In the past 600 years, Carrill has grown from that
sleepy backwater into one of the most populous and powerful systems
of the Assembly.
The Assembly has been a stablizing influence on the trailing half
of the Deep for over 500 years. Throughout most of that time the
Assembly has concentrated on fostering trade and progress in the
region, has seldom acted outside its borders, nor has it sought to
greatly expand its sphere of influence.
In the 1090's the Progressive Party came under the control of a
clique of young turks that began to agitate for the expansion of
the Assembly into surrounding territories. An attempted coup by
young naval officers in 1103 was supressed, but only after
President Collin had been assassinated. Temporary martial law was
declared and Admiral Juzark took control of Capital.
During this crisis, a compromise agreement among the Navy, the
Conservative Pary and the Progressive Party was worked out whereby
Admiral Juzark stepped down and High Justice Daldreem, Chief
Justice of the Assembly Supreme Court, was put into power as
Assembly President. It was expected that Daldreem would quickly
take the Assembly back to a representative democracy, but that has
not happened.
Daldreem has proven to be a charismatic, but ruthless, leader who,
under various constitutional pretexts has extended the state of
martial law through the present. Daldreem has embarked on a
campaign of expansion, popular with the Progessive Party, and is
centralizing Assembly authority, popular with the Conservative
Pary. Although the Liberal and Alaltin Democarats protested
Daldreem's policies vigorously in the beginning they have mostly
been silenced. Today, Daldreem and his cronies dominate the
Assembly government completely.
In 1109, a revolt against the Assembly began on Ildrissar after the
notorious Starport Massacre. Ildrissarians were protesting the
enforcment of new Assembly tarrifs on internal trade when a
contingent of Assembly Marines opened fire on the demonstrators
causing the death of 314. Daldreem used the protest and subsequent
strikes, workstopages and withholding of tarrifs to mobilize the
Assembly Navy and launch an invasion of Ildrissar. The situation
on Ildrissar is still in flux, with Carrill controlling the
Starport and several cities and the Ildrissarian Patriotic Front
controlling the rest of the planet.
In 1110, Halley Libidon (leader of the Liberal Party), called for a
"Vote of Confidence" on Daldreem's rule by the Assembly Senate. A
series of explosions and assassinations swept through Capital and
Daldreem disolved the Senate and sent the representatives home to
"protect our leaders from Ildrissarian terrorists." Since 1110
Libidon has travelled throughout the region seeking support for the
return of democracy to the Assembly.
Halley Libidon was charged with giving aid and comfort to
Ildrissarian rebels, tried in abstencia and convicted as a traitor
in 1113. He continues to be uncaptured, but the bounty on his head
has grown to 200,000 crimps.
The media was brought under control of the Office of Public
Information in 1114. Two days after this event, all but three
media outlets in the Carrillian Belt were officially shut down.
Over the last few years media outlets in member systems have come
under increasing pressure to conform to dictates of the OPI.
Between 1117 and 1119, the Carrillian Navy undertook several
expeditions against systems to trailing. These systems were said
to be the bases of raiders and reavers in league with the Solomani
Confederation. After a Solomani squadron defeated the 3rd
Carrillian Expeditionary Force at Teyl (3134) the CA Navy has
pulled back to regroup. The official word is that the raiders have
been stopped, and so have the expeditions.
Although it is officially denied, TAS reports indicate acts of
rebellion began to take place on Lanizohn in 1118. Officially,
these incidents have been written off as accidents and criminal
acts.
TAS has declared all of the Carrillian Assembly Amber. Ildrissar
and Lanizohn have been given Red Zone designations.
-------------------------------------------------------------
(1) I drew basic information from:
_A Pilot's Guid to Drexilthar Subsector_, by J. Andrew Keith;
_The Reaver's Deep Sector Sourcebook_, by Paul Sanders;
_Letter of Marque_, by J. Andrew Keith
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:08:42 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: A Question for the List
At 05:48 PM 3/13/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>I was looking thru one of my boxes of Traveller stuff, didn't know that I
>had two editions of High Guard, when I ran across something that I
>completely don't remember . Does anyone know anything about "Far Away; The
>Magazine of Speculative Gaming"? I seem to have volume #1 but no others.
>
>Dan
I have issues 1 & 2. Issue 1 had 2 starport articles for Traveller and 1
adventure (all by the Keith brothers). Issue 2 did not have any Traveller
articles. I don't know about subsequent issues.
Jimmy Simpson
nimrodd@mail.com
"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
-Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 22:03:33 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Amber Zone Classifications
At 05:19 PM 3/13/2001 -0500, Perry wrote:
> > > Aren't all non-Imperial worlds classified as (at best) Amber
> > > Zones?
> >
> > Yes, I remember reading somewhere that TAS (who set Amber Zone
> > status) have a blanket ruling: all non-Imperial worlds should be
> > considered as Amber Zones by Imperial citizens. However, this is
> > not reflected in the maps/stats that TAS produce as TAS services
> > are not restricted to Imperial citizens. (For example, there may
> > be a Swordie merchant who uses TAS ... most Swordie Worlds would
> > *not* he an Amber Zone to *him*.)
>
>Yeah, but the Swordie might automatically consider all *Imperial* worlds
>to be Amber...
>
Yes, but the TAS is not a Sword World company.
Jimmy Simpson
nimrodd@mail.com
"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
-Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 23:24:11 -0500
From: "C Michael" <swordworlder@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Far & Away Vol. 1
The Traveller Bibliography is a good source for that... or you could visit
http://www.jtas.org
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
Regards Traveller would it be appropriate to post a list somewhere of what
CT and Megatraveller publications I have in case someone wants me to look
something up/check a reference? My CT collection is pretty strong.
------------------------------
Date: 14 Mar 2001 06:07:22 +0000
From: Paul Campbell <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: latin
On 13 Mar 2001 20:11:10 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 19:42:18 -0500 (EST), Paul Campbell
> <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
>
> >On 12 Mar 2001 22:30:54 +0100, Jens Rydholm wrote:
> >> William Lane wrote:
> >> > anyone know what it means?
>
> >> > Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit
> >> > materiari?
>
> >> How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck would chuck wood?
>
>
> >*ZOT*
>
>
> *SPLORT*
>
> Nice to know I'm not the only RHODent here...
I'm in recovery. I couldn't keep up with the volume. But now with the
TML 'under my belt' I might try again.
- --
Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24
http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net
jupiter: 6:05am up 63 days, 19:45, 5 users, load average: 0.70, 0.66, 0.33
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:50:48 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Vac Suits and air pressure
John Lambert wrote :-
> DCS is a serious problem, but it does not kill you nearly as quickly
> as breathing vacuum.
Yes, it's one of the quickest ways to die.
As I pointed out in my previous post, unconscious in 15 seconds on average,
then dead after 4-5 minutes from brain hypoxia if not rescued.
I agree that spacers should be able to effectively react to explosive
decompression pretty much in their sleep. They wouldn't otherwise have a
second chance.
> I seem to recall some discussions about using gases other than
> nitrogen (argon?) in undersea work to avoid DCS
> problems (heavier gases than helium are needed to avoid the Donald
> Duck voice).
Helium, hydrogen and argon are the nitrogen alternatives.
Argon is a general anaesthetic at a partial pressure of 7 atmospheres, with
intoxicant effects at 5 (so it's actually worse than nitrogen from that
point of view). It's also relatively dense. Work of breathing could get
quite tiring.
Helium is, theoretically, a general anaesthetic at a partial pressure of 80
atmospheres. Intoxication probably starts around the 50 atmosphere mark.
It's unlikely that people would tolerate that sort of compression anyway,
because of high-pressure nervous syndrome.
Hydrogen, while being poorly lipid soluble, may pose too much of a fire
hazard. It has the tendency to diffuse into unwanted areas, too.
Helium looks optimal for hyperbaric applications. Liquid ventilation is
another alternative.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:50:52 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Fast Drug (was : Re: Question about the Imperial military)
Leonard Erickson wrote :-
> Actually, the pilot's g-tolerance will be well above those figures
> *without* the tanks. Because in space, you have to change course with
> the main drive.
<balance snipped>
I'm well aware of this, Leonard.
We obviously differ on what constitutes 'tactical' manoeuvre. Attitude
adjustments (as opposed to course changes) that you refer to, as you have
correctly pointed out, may not impose significant g-loads.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 12:40:26 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: www.SJGames com is getting slooooow....
Is it just me, or has www.sjgames.com become very slow in the last
week? Loading it takes ages, andeven then, only half the page is
loaded, before the connection is cut, and no data is transfered
anymore...
Everything else works just fine, so it´s probably not me, but really a
problem on their part.
I trierd the Gurps pages, the INWO pages and the Daily illuminator,
all with the same results...
Volker
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:04:08 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Question on cloning...
> Many of the things we discussed were not just the
> technical aspects, but also the likely responses to this "ungodly science"
> where man meddles in an area of Divine perogatives. You have merely to
> look about you in today's news casts to see that mankind has not totally
> emerged from the barbarism of religious guided stupidity.
;-)
Getting ready for another religion flamewar, are we?
;-)
But seriously:
I don´t have any problems with cloning, but then I also don´t believe
in such things like gods, souls or the like. A clone is just like any
other human being. So why some people make a big fuzz about this topic
is beyond me...
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:35:01 +0000
From: Graham Spearing <graham@tux.uklinux.net>
Subject: Getting too old for this caper
Hello,
Lurked about for a while and now surfacing. Such erudite conversation on
the inner logic of the Traveller Universe, and I have to disturb you all
with a really stupid question... I hope someone will help me out - happy
for you to take this offline as you are all Trav guru types.
Anyway...
I've finally taken a more serious look at T4 to run my weekly trav game.
I know, Iknow abit late in the day! I understand that T5 will be similar
to T4 in terms of game mechanics? I currently use MT. I have the T4
errata. Trav rules=errata. I just don't understand what happens in the
following encounter:
Stanley has a 7.5mm Binary Propellant rifle. He decides to shoot a burst
at a TL7 Knorr Container Truck (6.5 displacement tonnes, 45.9 tonnes
mass, 1 armour rating)
Stanley hits.
Rifle damage is 5. This is reduced to 4 due to the huge lorry's armour.
I roll a 1 for location and get superstructure hit. What is the effect
of this? P.59 would indicate that I need to take this off the
superstructure until it reaches it's 'inoperative level'. What would
that be? Has Stanley just destroyed the 45 tonne truck with a blaze of
his rifle?
I just have the feeling I've missed something really obvious.
Sorry about that. Can anyone help?
Thanks
Graham
graham@tux.uklinux.net
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 14:35:27 +0100
From: Jens Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: www.SJGames com is getting slooooow....
Volker wrote:
> Is it just me, or has www.sjgames.com become very slow in the last
> week? Loading it takes ages, andeven then, only half the page is
> loaded, before the connection is cut, and no data is transfered
> anymore...
It works just fine for me. I'm in Sweden, BTW.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 12:00:44 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: RE: Amber Zone Classifications
At 11:45 PM 03/12/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>It would seem to me that the Sword Worlds and Solomani couldn't afford to be
>too belligerent. Imperial trade must be fairly lucrative.
>
>Jeffrey Yin
Hello Jeffrey,
Oddly enough? Amber trade zones are *more* lucrative than normal routes
in that the captain and crew get double wages for the last parsec's worth
of travel in an amber zone. Consequently, if most or not all of the trade
route is in amber zone locations, the income is higher...
Hal
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3797
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3798
Date: | 3/14/01 10:20:48 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Thursday, March 15 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3798
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Question about the Imperial military
Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
Re: www.SJGames com is getting slooooow....
Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
RE: Hardware Wars
Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
The Gralyn Assemblage
Landgrab: Arba/Lunion/Spinward Marches [long]
Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
Re: Landgrab: Arba/Lunion/Spinward Marches [long]
Re: Landgrab: Arba/Lunion/Spinward Marches [long]
Re: The Gralyn Assemblage
Reavers' Deep webring has moved
GT:GF - Boarding Actions?
RE: Amber Zone Classifications
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3795
RE: The Gralyn Assemblage
RE: GF - Boarding Actions?
RE: The Gralyn Assemblage
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:10:27 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Question about the Imperial military
Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> Peter Trevor writes:
> > The Imperium's navy has three tiers. The top tier is the
> > "Imperial Navy", below that are numerous subsector navies
> > (sometimes called Colonial Navies), and below that are many
> > planetary navies.
>
> Though the planetary navies aren't strictly speaking Imperial.
> My guess is, however, that they are automatically Imperial
> reserves and can be called up by the Imperium at will.
> Alternatively each treaty of annexation/joining set out the
> conditions under which the planetary forces must be made
> available for the Imperium.
I'd go with the latter option (though in many cases the
distinction is unimportant as most planetary navies appear to be
primarily non-jump-capable SDBs and monitors.)
> > Colonial Navies don't always have top-of-the-line ships but have
sufficient
> > number to be a significant force.
>
> There's an unresolved discrepancy between canonical descriptions
> of colonial navies and the canonical description of how they are
> raised and funded. The following is my take on how to explain
> this discrepancy and is therefor not canon (Note: TLs are GT TLs).
>
> The typical colonial navy
> -------------------------
<snip>
Hmmm ... okay <snag>
> > Planetary navies are usually smaller and usually don't have jump
capability
> > (they are primarily for a world's defence).
>
> The character generation system allows a character to join a
> planetary navy and still learn jump-related skills with no
> restrictions. It is propable that most planetary navies have
> _some_ jump-capable vessels. As for their size, their combined
> budgets are 70% of the total military budget with the remaining
> 30% divided equally between the subsector navies and the regular
> IN, so they should be much larger in toto. Much of that will be
> in the form of deep meson sites and orbital fortresses, though.
IIRC the 5FW boardgame had a few jump-capable *named* 'colonial'
squadrons. These had to be placed on the specific world at game
start. The way I interpret this is that *these* squadrons were
jump-capable *planetary* navy ships, all other 'colonial'
squadrons were *subsector* navy ships.
> > Batrons can be made of battleships (aka dreadnaughts) or
> > battleriders.
>
> Battleriders are usually equal in size to cruisers. While they
> are ton-for-ton tougher than ships of equivalent size, I doubt
> a 30,000 T battlerider could stand in battle against an
> equivalent number of 300,000 T battleships. So a BatRon is
> propably more often made of of carriers than of riders (Even
> though the one canonical example we have claims to be one
> carrier with 7 riders).
You know, this has been bothering me recently. Your idea makes a
lot more sense than the canonical example.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 09:33:08 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
Antony Farrell wrote:
> Looking at my FFS1 TL11 Dragonfly class air/raft I wouldn't want to stand
> behind it as it has a HEPlaR Thruster generating 2 tons of thrust. Some of
> my other grav vehicles used turbo jets, and many of them used turbines to
> produce power. I think this would make them quite noisy. Certainly I would
> restrict them from built up areas.
>
> Traffic offence, Sonic emissions above a proscribed level.
> The HePlaR thruster on many grav vehicles is particularly frightening.
>
> Antony
This is one thing that has always bothered me about both FFS1 and FFS2;
they have a huge blind spot regarding electric motors.
Here we have powerplants on these things which are typically vastly
overrated for their power draw, yet no one's ever though to just slap on
a decent 3/4 horse electric motor with a prop on the shaft and fly away
silently!
At higher TL's where it's cannon that they have RT superconductors,
electric motors can become extremely light and incredibly efficient.
Electric powered ducted fans, I suspect, will drive LOTS of grav
vehicles, at least near ground level. Some sort of multi-drive regime
would be necessary in many cases (fan at low altitude/speed, turbojet at
higher (these two could be combined into the same drive I would think),
and heplar for extra-atmosphere work.)
I really don't see the authorities allowing fusion drives (heplar) to
operate in an atmosphere all that much...
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 08:50:13 -0800
From: Douglas Berry <gridlore@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: www.SJGames com is getting slooooow....
At 12:40 PM 03/14/01 +0100, you wrote:
>Is it just me, or has www.sjgames.com become very slow in the last
>week? Loading it takes ages, andeven then, only half the page is
>loaded, before the connection is cut, and no data is transfered
>anymore...
Perhaps the computer has the same virus that has befallen the staff.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Hear the voices in my head, swear to God it
sounds like they're snoring." - Harvey Danger
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 12:13:06 -0600 (CST)
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Here we have powerplants on these things which are typically vastly
> overrated for their power draw, yet no one's ever though to just slap on
> a decent 3/4 horse electric motor with a prop on the shaft and fly away
> silently!
Yes, someone has. The RCEG designs the grav belt and grav bike this way,
and silence is mentioned as one of their biggest advantages.
Greg Kettler
"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you
may not actually need an explicit loop exit. The loop will be terminated
automatically at the appropriate moment."
-Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 10:32:20 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Hardware Wars
I would Love to read it. tell me how to send you costs of copying and
postage. also tell me what those costs are or will be.
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan [mailto:tiamat@tsoft.com]
Sent: Tuesday, March 13, 2001 3:29 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Hardware Wars
I found my xerox copies of these articles last night while working on my
novel, which also used to be the setting of my old TU. If anyone wants to
read them I could make copies for postage and copying.
Kiri
****************************************************************************
**
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 11:51:50 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>
>> Here we have powerplants on these things which are typically vastly
>> overrated for their power draw, yet no one's ever though to just slap on
>> a decent 3/4 horse electric motor with a prop on the shaft and fly away
>> silently!
>
>
> Yes, someone has. The RCEG designs the grav belt and grav bike this way,
> and silence is mentioned as one of their biggest advantages.
Are there design rules in there for this stuff or is it a swag design?
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:40:29 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
On 03/14/01 at 09:33 AM, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:
>> Looking at my FFS1 TL11 Dragonfly class air/raft I wouldn't want to stand
>> behind it as it has a HEPlaR Thruster generating 2 tons of thrust. Some of
>> my other grav vehicles used turbo jets, and many of them used turbines to
>> produce power. I think this would make them quite noisy. Certainly I would
>> restrict them from built up areas.
>> Traffic offence, Sonic emissions above a proscribed level.
>> The HePlaR thruster on many grav vehicles is particularly frightening.
>This is one thing that has always bothered me about both FFS1 and
>FFS2; they have a huge blind spot regarding electric motors.
True.
>Here we have powerplants on these things which are typically vastly
> overrated for their power draw, yet no one's ever though to just
>slap on a decent 3/4 horse electric motor with a prop on the shaft
>and fly away silently!
3/4 hp? Hum, say a 4dt air/raft would mass about 20 tons? If CG
reduces the gravitational attraction by 99%, you would have to
overcome approximately 200 kg to get lift...right? Ducted fans on
the bottom could handle that easily enough on a world with thin+
atmosphere. It would be quite possible to use ducted fans to get up
into the stratosphere, then turn on the plasma focus for the kick to
orbit.
>Electric powered ducted fans, I suspect, will drive LOTS of grav
>vehicles, at least near ground level. Some sort of multi-drive
>regime would be necessary in many cases (fan at low
>altitude/speed, turbojet at higher (these two could be combined
>into the same drive I would think), and heplar for
>extra-atmosphere work.)
>I really don't see the authorities allowing fusion drives (heplar)
>to operate in an atmosphere all that much...
I think I agree with that. Very thin- atmospheres are going to be a
problem though. In those circumstances reaction drives are going to
have to be rockets and that pretty much means heplar (plasma focus)
or fusion torch.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 13:56:00 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: The Gralyn Assemblage
Here's another Library type entry for a interstellar state in
Reavers' Deep. Again I drew inspiration from _Reaver's Deep Sector
Sourcebook_, by Paul Sanders (and ultimately the Keith Brothers).
I will be putting these posts online eventually. So I may just post
notices of new url entries on the TML if folks object to the entire
essays being posted here.
BTW, I wouldn't mind some feedback.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Gralyn Assemblage (1119)
(AKA The Gralyn Union)
The Gralyn Assemblage is a small interstellar state in the Drinsaar
Subsector. There are 6 states in the Assemblage Gralyn (1735), an
Aslan enclave on Gralyn, the Droyne occupied moon Askoapoy in the
Gralyn system, former colony Botany Bay (1734), and The Kursk
Republic, one of the independent nations on Khtearle, (1733). The
Assemblage is also a member of the Aikhiy Development Trust which
controls the Aikhiy system.
The Assemblage government is a Council of Five, one each from the
five factions that make up the Assemblage. Under the Council is
an impersonal bureaucracy made up mostly of humans which runs the
government from day to day.
The Assemblage was formed in the latter days of the Long Night
(-312) when the Droyne on Askoapoy and the humans on Gralyn
"assembled" their resources to defend the system from marauding
reavers. The association remained limited until the Aslan invasions
of the Deep when an Aslan enclave was formed on Gralyn and the three
groups combined to defend the system against further incursions.
Botany Bay was added, first as a protectorate then as a full member,
when, after the Solomani Rim War, the corporation running that
colony abandoned the colonists.
The Grayln Assemblage is situated on the Drinsaar Main and benefits
from legal and illegal trade travelling along this 20 world jump-1
main. To trailing are the large population systems of Rintarna and
Lanixon and to spinward are Himalaya, Soloman, and Venice, and most
of the trade between those worlds travels through the Assemblage.
The Aikhiy Development Trust is a joint project between the Gralyn
Assemblage and the independent world of Venice. The Trust's mission
is to develop Aikhiy as an agricultural world supplying food stuffs
to both of the trustees and for sale to surrounding systems. It is
no secret that it is also an opening overture toward enticing
Venice into joining the Assemblage.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:45:17 -0600
From: Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
Subject: Landgrab: Arba/Lunion/Spinward Marches [long]
This past November I was greeted with the wonderful news that I had a
brain tumor. Thanks to surgery, 5000 rads of x-rays, and some really
disgusting chemotherapy drugs, I have as of my first post surgery MRI
no recurring cancer growth.
During this period I thought about many things (something by the way
that they try to discourage when one has brain cancer) and one of the
5 million items that went through my mind at the time was that I
really had never seriously contributed anything to the TML. Well
folks, today that changes.
I hereby lay claim to and landgrab of Arba 1721, located in the
Lunion subsector of the Spinward Marches. As part of my claim, I
present preliminary system and world data:
Preliminary System Data [subject to change]
Estimated Age: 6 Billion years
Primary: Al-Khalil K2V
Orbit Name UPP Distance in AU in Mkm orbit
ecc. population-facilities
1.5 Ishma YS00000-0 .55
82.25 .02 none
1.9 Arba C200200-C .67 100.21
.05 550 - class C starport
2.5 Isaak Y230122-C .85 127.15
.05 70 - research lab*
3 Sarai Y200133-B 1.0
149.6 .02 30
4 Ibrahim Y500000-0 1.6
239.3 .07 none
-55 Anapy YS00113-0 .003 .275
nil 60 - research lab*
-60 Glioma YS00000-0 .005
.3 nil none
6 Hagar's Belt H000100-B 5.2 777.9
nil 30 - em landing site
* Research Lab on Anapy controlled by Sternmetal Horizons
* Research Lab on Isaak controlled by University of Lanth
Note: Orbit numbers for Anapy and Glioma represent distances from
Ibrahim.
Preliminary World Data for Arba [subject to change]
Moons: none
Diameter: 3280km (2029 mls)
Density: 2.7 g-cucm
Mass: .006 Earth
Gravity: .118G
Orbital Period: 231.298 std days
Local Time: uses std Imperial calender- 365 days per year 24 hrs per
day.
Axial Tilt: 0 degrees (tidal locked)
Atmospheric Pressure: nil
Atmospheric Gasses: nil
Hydrosphere: nil
Albedo: .02
Greenhouse Factor: 0
Temperature, Dayside "Arba": 304.034K-87.261F
Temperature, Nightside "Dark Arba": 253.362K-3.948F
Local Ecosystem: no life
Resources: Average
History-frontier wars, colonization failures (see wars), LSP lack of
influence (see wars), etc. (etc.)
[preliminary]
Settlements-the ubiquitus former 3I naval base, the old shut down LSP
mines, current settlement etc.
[preliminary]
Referee Notes [very preliminary]:
The Research Lab on Isaak is, in fact, a listening post for the IISS.
But you already knew that, didn't you (weg). The Research Lab run by
Sternmetal Horizons on Anapy is conducting experiments in physical and
"quantum" chemistry as it may apply to the development of
Nanotechnology. None of the experiments to date have resulted in any
success. Sternmetal management is giving serious consideration to
terminating the project due to lack of profitability.
Bibliography [preliminary]: Gurps First In, Book 6 Scouts, The
Spinward Marches Campaign, Directors Guide to 2300, Andrew M
Vallances' most excellent Landgrab of Ficant (which I am using as an
inspirational guide), David Jaques-Watson's Beowolf Down site
(primarily the Tavonni Rice Paper, for major historical nuggets),
other stuff I can't think of right now.
More data will be available as I have time. If anyone has any ideas
they'd like to share, I'd be most appreciative.
Dan Roseberry (plop 101) Hot Springs Arkansas USA
"I get all these radiation treatments and I still don't look like the
Incredible Hulk" tm.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 17:07:39 -0600 (CST)
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > Yes, someone has. The RCEG designs the grav belt and grav bike this way,
> > and silence is mentioned as one of their biggest advantages.
>
> Are there design rules in there for this stuff or is it a swag design?
Rules are included in the back of the book. They're an extension of FF&S,
of course.
Greg Kettler
"Of course, if you're writing the code to control a cruise missile, you
may not actually need an explicit loop exit. The loop will be terminated
automatically at the appropriate moment."
-Programming Perl, 3rd Ed.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 16:49:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Arba/Lunion/Spinward Marches [long]
- --- Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com>
> wrote:
>This past November I was greeted with the wonderful news that I had a
>brain tumor. Thanks to surgery, 5000 rads of x-rays, and some really
>disgusting chemotherapy drugs, I have as of my first post surgery MRI
>no recurring cancer growth.
Well Congrat's on the MRI result.....ouchy for the RAD's and Chemo.....
Antaine.
~Geek code to follow~
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:53:41 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Arba/Lunion/Spinward Marches [long]
On 03/14/01 at 04:45 PM, Roseberry <rosebee@mail.cswnet.com> said:
>This past November I was greeted with the wonderful news that I had
>a brain tumor. Thanks to surgery, 5000 rads of x-rays, and some
>really disgusting chemotherapy drugs, I have as of my first post
>surgery MRI no recurring cancer growth.
Congratulation on the MRI report and good luck.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 18:06:01 -0700
From: "J. Paul Sanders" <jps64@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: The Gralyn Assemblage
At 01:56 PM 3/14/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>Here's another Library type entry for a interstellar state in
>Reavers' Deep. Again I drew inspiration from _Reaver's Deep Sector
>Sourcebook_, by Paul Sanders (and ultimately the Keith Brothers).
Eris -
Actually - Jimmy Simpson did the majority (90+%) of the work on the
_Reaver's Deep Sector Sourcebook_ - So, credit where credit is due :)
L8r,
Paul
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:03:01 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Reavers' Deep webring has moved
It's now at http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=reaversdeep;action=home
The old one, on the former webring.org, now Y!Webring is for all practical
purposed dead.
Could the owner of http://www.geocities.com/catn_gm/index.html please
contact me.
The email address register to this site through y!webring is not valid and
there is no email link on the page.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Ferret: Chaos with fur, claws and an odd smell.
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:56:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org>
Subject: GT:GF - Boarding Actions?
The "Boarding Actions" sidebar (GT:GF p.45-47) makes the assumption
that ships will only be boarded by Marines in the aftermath of a
ship-to-ship battle. While in GF this emphasis on the Marine's side
of it is understandable, a more common scenario in Traveller often
involves a ship's crew *resisting* a boarding action by pirates (or
possibly customs agents) who may or may not be as well trained. What
I would like to see is more details about weapons and tactics that
both boarders and defenders would use in such a battle. For example;
1.) Flash-bang grenades [UT2 65] and their TL9 ultra-tech sonic
descendants (Warbler [UT 68] and Sonic Stun [UT2 66]) are great
for disorientling and capturing crews without damaging the ship,
but won't work against BD suited opponents or in vacuum.
2.) Similarly, any weapon that is "ship safe" (ie. won't breach any
internal bulkeads and risk damaging vital equipment) is totally
ineffective against any but the most rudimentary battledress. As
a result, on board fire fights can be extremely damgerous to all
ship systems and results of missed shots should be played out.
3.) Exactly what is an "assault cutter" and how is a Marine boarding
platoon organized and equipped? (I've designed a "covert assault
module" to go with a stealth cutter using GT: Starships rules
but until I see what's available in the "Modular Cutters" book I
won't know if I've been anticipated.)
4.) "War stories" about boarding actions that occurred during gaming
sessions to illustrate do's and don'ts. ("So there I was, ...")
- --
@==================================================@
| Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |
| Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html |
| Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos |
| "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium." |
| Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium |
| You must meet Steve at the brewery and get the |
| light bulb. FNORD! |
@==================================================@
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:44:54 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Amber Zone Classifications
At 12:00 PM 3/13/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>At 11:45 PM 03/12/2001 -0800, you wrote:
> >It would seem to me that the Sword Worlds and Solomani couldn't afford to be
> >too belligerent. Imperial trade must be fairly lucrative.
> >
> >Jeffrey Yin
>
>Hello Jeffrey,
> Oddly enough? Amber trade zones are *more* lucrative than normal routes
>in that the captain and crew get double wages for the last parsec's worth
>of travel in an amber zone. Consequently, if most or not all of the trade
>route is in amber zone locations, the income is higher...
>
> Hal
Income is higher...for the shipping company, not for the people who are
having to pay the hazard pay to get their shipments in or out of that system.
Jimmy Simpson
nimrodd@mail.com
"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
-Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:47:59 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3795
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote :
> and the first GDW game was a boardgame of that invasion (Drang
> Nach Osten).
Loren, perhaps you can clear something up for me.
I always thought that the "Drang Nach Osten" boardgame was originally
produced by a European company, and then picked up by SPI and republished as
"War in the East" ?
Was there another "Drang Nach Osten" or have I just got it completely wrong
?
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 19:10:13 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: The Gralyn Assemblage
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote :
> BTW, I wouldn't mind some feedback.
As always, eris, your work is dissappearing into the TML Black Hole of
Quality
But yes, each of these posts so far have been definite keepers.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 19:17:39 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: GF - Boarding Actions?
Dalton Spence wrote :
> 3.) Exactly what is an "assault cutter"
A cutter or shuttle designed to be rammed into a hole on a ship you'rre
trying to board.
Also used are "Assault airlocks" heavily armoured tubes with sealing
compounds on the end, that are atttached to the side of a ship, and then the
hull or existing airlocks are cut or blown through.
<snip>
> 4.) "War stories" about boarding actions that occurred during gaming
> sessions to illustrate do's and don'ts. ("So there I was, ...")
While taking Engineering, be very careful where you fire the PGMP.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 00:18:43 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: RE: The Gralyn Assemblage
On 03/15/01 at 07:10 PM, "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> said:
>> BTW, I wouldn't mind some feedback.
>As always, eris, your work is dissappearing into the TML Black Hole
>of Quality
LOL! I suppose I should know by now that on this this, no comment is the highest praise.
>But yes, each of these posts so far have been definite keepers.
Well, you might see some more like them shortly, then. <g> I'm planning on doing the Lanyard Colonies next.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3798
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3799
Date: | 3/15/01 3:57:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Thursday, March 15 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3799
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
This list
RE: GF - Boarding Actions?
Re: This list
RE: GF - Boarding Actions?
Re: This list
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3798
Something for the Penguin fanciers.
Jump drives and damage.
New to T4 seeking 'Scale' Clarification
Re: Jump drives and damage.
Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
RE: Jump drives and damage.
Re: GF - Boarding Actions?
Re: Jump drives and damage.
RE: Jump drives and damage.
RE: Jump drives and damage.
RE: Jump drives and damage.
RE: Jump drives and damage.
RE: Jump drives and damage.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:22:37 -0700
From: "Johnny" <gamersvault@yucca.net>
Subject: This list
Is this list for Classic Traveller too?
- - Johnny
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 08:52:09 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: RE: GF - Boarding Actions?
On Thu, 15 Mar 2001, Frank G. Pitt wrote:
[snip]
> > 4.) "War stories" about boarding actions that occurred during gaming
> > sessions to illustrate do's and don'ts. ("So there I was, ...")
> While taking Engineering, be very careful where you fire the PGMP.
Also, when rescuing hostages, PGMPs are not very useful.
Reminds me of a paraller universe (2300AD, probably Mission Arcturus was
the module name, can't remember. It was some 12 years ago...) where my
character, a French smuggler, had acquired a plasma gun and for some
reason had it on the mission. (We were about thirteen, so big guns
were compulsory...)
This could spoil the module, so beware :
We civilians had a military officer with us, who was to command us. We had
supposedly some knowledge of Kafers, that was probably why we were there.
The mission was to explore a space station taken by Kafers, who had taken
some people hostage.
The plasma gun did show its usefulness twice. First we bumped into some
Kafers in a blocked corridor. Of course, I shot them, but we were too
near, our officer got a shrapnel through the head and died instantly.
We bested most of the aliens and got finally to their last stand-off
point. They had five hostages in a command room. I saw the Kafers in the
middle of the room and blasted them with my gun. Result : three dead
Kafers and two dead hostages...
We were not very successful. I remember the GM stumbling when reading
chapters from the adventure to us. "The hostage says that, no wait, that
hostage is already dead..."
ObTrav:
Always remember the blast radius of your weapons, and try to be sure not
to stand in it...
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 08:53:36 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: This list
On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Johnny wrote:
> Is this list for Classic Traveller too?
Yes, this is for all Traveller.
CT is probably more prevalent today than some time ago, because of the
reprints.
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 02:19:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: RE: GF - Boarding Actions?
- --- "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
> wrote:
>> sessions to illustrate do's and don'ts. ("So there I was, ...")
>
>While taking Engineering, be very careful where you fire the PGMP.
Funny you should mention that....about 18 years ago, I played a retired Marine..My first character from Mercenaries Generation(the first time our group had access to book 4 at all). The group were free traders fighting off a 400ton Pirate Corsair. "The best defence...yada yada yada", we decide to mount an assualt on the assualting pirate vessel as they board our free trader.
Upshot is, the Ref misreads the weapon chart in Merc's and decides that my character with BD and FGMP-15 does 16D6^3 when it really meant 16D6 'note' 3. The consequences of this were that I had rolled 16D and 12 were 4+ when I fired against an armoured bulkhead into the Corsair bridge, he worked it out at ^3 and the game came to an abrupt end. We laughed for ages about that and the ref never lived it down.....
Antaine.
~IMTU tc++ !tm !tn !t4 !tg tt- !to ru+ ge 3i c jt au+ ls pi+ ta he+ kk hi as+ va+ dr+ ith-- vr- ne- so++ zh-- vi- da sy~
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 03:24:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Antaine <Mist.Warrior@theeclipse.net>
Subject: Re: This list
- --- "Johnny" <gamersvault@yucca.net>
> wrote:
>Is this list for Classic Traveller too?
>
>- Johnny
You mean to say there is more than one? :oP
==
- ---------------------------------------------
Antaine.
*Certavi et Vici*
~IMTU tc++ !tm !tn !t4 !tg tt- !to ru+ ge 3i c jt au+ ls pi+ ta he+ kk hi as+ va+ dr+ ith-- vr- ne- so++ zh-- vi- da sy~
- ---------------------------------------------
_____________________________________________________________
The Eclipse lit & art mag online!
http://theeclipse.net/
ISSN 1530-9371
an ARTISAN STUDIO production
http://artisanstudio.org/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 09:03:35 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3798
In a message dated 15-Mar-01 12:20:48 AM Central Standard Time,
owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
> I always thought that the "Drang Nach Osten" boardgame was originally
> produced by a European company, and then picked up by SPI and republished
as
> "War in the East" ?
Far as I know, War in the East by SPI was a in-house design there. If there
were European boardgame companies in 1973, I am unaware of them. DNO was
GDW's first game, the flagship of the Europa Series of WWII boardgames.
Perhaps the name "Europa Series" made you think they were originally produced
in Europe?
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 10:18:33 -0600
From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
Subject: Something for the Penguin fanciers.
Something I found during a search for "all your base" stuff.
http://www.eskimobob.com/episodes.cgi?episode=13
Eskimo Bob Episode 13: The Wrath of the Penguin
=======================================================
Objects on screen may be more hostile than they appear.
=======================================================
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 10:13:20 -0600
From: "Donavan L" <dlambertus@dtgnet.com>
Subject: Jump drives and damage.
As a newbie to the list, I have my first dumb questions. Now, they've
probably been asked a few hundred times, but -
How long does it take to intiate a jump?
What happens if a jump drive loses power or is shut off after the the ship
has already jumped?
What happens if a ship's power plant is damaged after a jump is intiated?
Is there any way to stop a ship from jumping once the process is begun?
Thanks in advance. I will now retreat to cover and wait for the fruit
throwing to begin. :)
Donavan L.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 18:36:22 +0000
From: Graham Spearing <graham@tux.uklinux.net>
Subject: New to T4 seeking 'Scale' Clarification
Hello,
Lurked about for a while and now surfacing. Such erudite conversation on
the inner logic of the Traveller Universe, and I have to disturb you all
with a really stupid question... I hope someone will help me out - happy
for you to take this offline as you are all Trav guru types.
Anyway...
I've finally taken a more serious look at T4 to run my weekly trav game.
I know, Iknow abit late in the day! I understand that T5 will be similar
to T4 in terms of game mechanics? I currently use MT. I have the T4
errata. Trav rules=errata. I just don't understand what happens in the
following encounter:
Stanley has a 7.5mm Binary Propellant rifle. He decides to shoot a burst
at a TL7 Knorr Container Truck (6.5 displacement tonnes, 45.9 tonnes
mass, 1 armour rating)
Stanley hits.
Rifle damage is 5. This is reduced to 4 due to the huge lorry's armour.
I roll a 1 for location and get superstructure hit. What is the effect
of this? P.59 would indicate that I need to take this off the
superstructure until it reaches it's 'inoperative level'. What would
that be? Has Stanley just destroyed the 45 tonne truck with a blaze of
his rifle?
I just have the feeling I've missed something really obvious.
Sorry about that. Can anyone help?
Thanks
Graham
graham@tux.uklinux.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:42:36 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: Jump drives and damage.
On 03/15/01 at 10:13 AM, "Donavan L" <dlambertus@dtgnet.com> said:
>As a newbie to the list, I have my first dumb questions. Now,
>they've probably been asked a few hundred times, but -
Hello and welcome to the list. First, a few acronyms that you're
going to be seeing:
IMTU = In My Traveller Universe
OTU = Official Traveller Universe
CT = Classic Traveller
MT = Megatraveller
TNE = Traveller: The New Era
T4 = Mark Miller's Traveller
T5 = Mark Miller's *next* Traveller (currently under development)
GT = GURPS Traveller
LBB = Little Black Books of CT
I'm only going to use a couple, but you'll be seeing the others soon
enough. I'll let others tell you about the special terms, phrases,
and inside jokes. <g>
>How long does it take to intiate a jump?
IMTU, roughly 1 minute is needed to *initiate* a jump. Doing all
the things that it takes to get to that point takes about a half
hour.
During the half hour preceding jump, the capacitors have to be
charged, the course computed, and the jump grid tested.
Once the crew is ready to jump you actually initiate it. IMTU, this
is a four step process
(1) turning on the jump grid by the Engineer, "Grid on and hot!"
(2) starting the release of "injection mass" (most of the jump fuel)
by the Engineer, "Mass Released! Bubble forming!"
(3) locking the destination target by the Astrogator, "Target
sighted, verified and locked...Go for Jump!"
(4) and "hitting the button" by the Pilot or Captain, "Course
confirmed, bubble up. Insertion!"
...up to hitting the button the crew can back out if any of the
prior tasks didn't go right, but after hitting that button the ship
is gone, irretrievably committed.
>What happens if a jump drive loses power or is shut off after the
>the ship has already jumped?
IMTU, nothing. Once the ship has jumped the jump drive is turned
off. The "jump grid" built into the hull has to stay powered to
maintain the protective bubble, though, if you want to survive the
next week.
>What happens if a ship's power plant is damaged after a jump is
>intiated?
IMTU, that depends on how much power is lost. Completely, losing
the grid in Jump Space leads to premature bubble collapse and the
rapid destruction of the ship and death of all aboard her.
>Is there any way to stop a ship from jumping once the process is
>begun?
I think this is both OTU and IMTU...prior to actually jumping, yes,
but after you "hit the button" that actually inserts you into
jumpspace, no. Once you're *in*, your in for a week (more or less).
IMTU, it's a week because it takes that long for the interface
between jump and normal space (the edge of the jump bubble) to
stabilize. It's the unstable interface that is destructive, and you
need that bubble to keep the instability away from the ship's hull.
Anything that hits that interface before it stabilizes is going to
precipitate back into real space, but as a spray of particles.
Oh, and IMTU, the jump itself takes place in plank time, ie. as
close to 0 as you can get. The state the universe along a
straight line path from point A to point B at that instant is what
determines things like "jump shadows" and "mass interference."
After that instant, the real universe continues for a week and has
*no* effect on the ship, until after it emerges.
Imagine you jump to point B, an empty area of space *now*, but a
week later a chunk of matter has orbited into point B...nasty! One
of the jobs of the Astrogator is to insure that isn't going to
happen, and space is very, *very* big so it's not that hard a task
if you've got good charts, but accidents can happen.
So, what happens if you would be emerging inside a mass? IMTU, the
smaller mass is violently bounced to the 10 diameter of the other.
For in game purposes, IMTU, the ship takes internal *and* external
hits equal to the size number of the object with which it would have
intersected. This generally means a ship with many systems damaged,
disabled or destroyed, and in danger of crashing into the massive
object doing even more damage.
>Thanks in advance. I will now retreat to cover and wait for the
>fruit throwing to begin. :)
You're right these questions have been asked a few times before, and
they often *do* lead to vigorous discussions. <g>
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:00:43 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Newbie Essays (The effects of gravitics on the surroundings)
Gregory Carl Kettler wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Mar 2001, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>
>>> Yes, someone has. The RCEG designs the grav belt and grav bike this way,
>>> and silence is mentioned as one of their biggest advantages.
>>
>> Are there design rules in there for this stuff or is it a swag design?
>
>
> Rules are included in the back of the book. They're an extension of FF&S,
> of course.
>
Gonna have to look for that now...
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:08:55 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Jump drives and damage.
>As a newbie to the list, I have my first dumb questions. Now, they've
>probably been asked a few hundred times, but -
Only dumb question is the one that never gets asked. dont know about a few
hunderd times but yes they did discuss it a few months ago. Ill do my best
to pass the info to you that i know.
>How long does it take to intiate a jump?
Well they never covered this. IMTU it takes about 5 mins for the jump drives
to build up the power to initiate the jump. No need to worry about
Navigation because the crew would have worked that out on the manuvering out
to 100 Diameters.
>What happens if a jump drive loses power or is shut off after the the ship
>has already jumped?
there was a lot of talk about this. if i remember correctly there were a
couple of diffrent things being said. One thing tossed about was that the
ship would "Drop" out of jump space. Another was that the Lanthium grid
would drop and no longer protect the crew to the mind destroying properties
of Jump space.
IMTU Nothing would happen see the jump Drive Creates the "window" for the
Ship to "jump" Through to get to Jump space and then pushes the ship through
the "Window". Once on the Other side the Lanthium Grid is all the ship
needs. it protects the crew from the mind altering effects of Jump space.
The Lanthium Grid is Powered by the power plant which is a seperate power
source over the Jump Drive.
Now one thing should be mentioned. IMTU half of the required jump fuel is
used to "Jump" Into jump space. The rest of the required jump fuel is used
to "Jump" out of space. If the Jump Drive is damaged or Destroyed then it is
possable for the ship to become Trapped in jump space. when the ship runs
out of fuel for the power plant the Lanthium Grid drops and the crews minds
are destroyed. So Jump Drives are Fussed over pieces of equipment IMTU.
engineering sections will be secured areas even on a small 200 ton
frieghter. and yes before you ask there are ships floating around in jump
space with dead crews.
>What happens if a ship's power plant is damaged after a jump is intiated?
IMTU see above. However i saw that in Others TU's they powered the Lanthium
grid off the Jump Drive.
>Is there any way to stop a ship from jumping once the process is begun?
IMTU you just stop the process at some point prior to actually "jumping"
through the "Window". I allow a "core" type dump that will do like an
emergancy scram on the Jump drive. basically it just drops the entire jump
drive off line and causes the "jump window" to collapse. This of course is
an emergancy situation type thing. the Crew of the Mahina Tiare just
experianced one of these by default. they were trying to jump with a jump
drive who has not had an annual in 5 years. So the Drive hada hiccup and
the back up systems Did the Dump. sort of left them looking silly in front
of a scout who happened to be in the area.
>Thanks in advance. I will now retreat to cover and wait for the fruit
>throwing to begin. :)
We never throw fruit 8P to messy to clean up after.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:23:54 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: GF - Boarding Actions?
Was written:
>Always remember the blast radius of your weapons, and try to be sure not
>to stand in it...
Also never stand behind a dwarf carrying a pazerfaust.
Dan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:45:18 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Jump drives and damage.
On 15 Mar 2001, at 14:42, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:
<snip of nice write-up of IHTU jump process>
> >Thanks in advance. I will now retreat to cover and wait for the
> >fruit throwing to begin. :)
>
> You're right these questions have been asked a few times before, and
> they often *do* lead to vigorous discussions. <g>
Or at least copious saving of excellent posts for later digestion... :)
Rob
- ---
Rob Davenport 0301 C438875-B 713
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 13:48:51 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Jump drives and damage.
Eris,
You and i handle this very simularly. would you mind if i throw a few
questions at you?
>Once the crew is ready to jump you actually initiate it. IMTU, this
>is a four step process
>(1) turning on the jump grid by the Engineer, "Grid on and hot!"
>(2) starting the release of "injection mass" (most of the jump fuel)
>by the Engineer, "Mass Released! Bubble forming!"
>(3) locking the destination target by the Astrogator, "Target
>sighted, verified and locked...Go for Jump!"
Are you saying the Navigator/Astrogator can not actually lay in the course
till the Jump Bubble forms? if so is he targeting his destination through
the Jump bubble? or am i miss reading this and he just confirming to the
captian/bridge crew that the course is plotted and locked into the
Navigation system?
(>4) and "hitting the button" by the Pilot or Captain, "Course
>confirmed, bubble up. Insertion!"
>...up to hitting the button the crew can back out if any of the
>prior tasks didn't go right, but after hitting that button the ship
>is gone, irretrievably committed.
IMTU, it's a week because it takes that long for the interface
between jump and normal space (the edge of the jump bubble) to
stabilize. It's the unstable interface that is destructive, and you
need that bubble to keep the instability away from the ship's hull.
Anything that hits that interface before it stabilizes is going to
precipitate back into real space, but as a spray of particles.
Interesting. So could a ship artificially Stabalize this and drop out of
jump early?
>Oh, and IMTU, the jump itself takes place in plank time, ie. as
>close to 0 as you can get. The state the universe along a
>straight line path from point A to point B at that instant is what
>determines things like "jump shadows" and "mass interference."
>After that instant, the real universe continues for a week and has
>*no* effect on the ship, until after it emerges.
Are you saying that for the crew no time passes of very little? and if so
would crews live what would seem to be much longer lives than Downporters?
also if that is the case would there be a much more abundance of "family"
type ships where the crew was or are an entire family?
>So, what happens if you would be emerging inside a mass? IMTU, the
>smaller mass is violently bounced to the 10 diameter of the other.
>For in game purposes, IMTU, the ship takes internal *and* external
>hits equal to the size number of the object with which it would have
>intersected. This generally means a ship with many systems damaged,
>disabled or destroyed, and in danger of crashing into the massive
>object doing even more damage.
Hmm well popping back out to 10 diameters is much nicer than popping up
inside of something and trying to occupy the same space as something else 8P
however big enough object and your talking a major ouch. What about say
popping into a system with a High Ship traffic? lets say you were going to
capital. now this i am sure is a planet witha very large ship traffic
coming and going. when your astrogator "targets" his destitnation is there
some sort of way the crew notifies the traffic control they are inbound so
that ships stay clear of the Jump in point?
these are things that popped into my head. and truth is i would be
interested in hear what you got to say for possable addition to MTU.
Hasta
>Thanks in advance. I will now retreat to cover and wait for the
>fruit throwing to begin. :)
You're right these questions have been asked a few times before, and
they often *do* lead to vigorous discussions. <g>
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 16:50:27 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Jump drives and damage.
On 15 Mar 2001, at 13:08, William Lane wrote:
> and yes before you ask there are ships floating around in jump
> space with dead crews.
Well that just begs the question (for me at least) - can one run
into these Marie Celestials while in j-space IYTU?
(I'd guess canonically the answer is no, but your description
gave me a mental picture of a crew, part way into the week long
jump when a ghostly derelict slowly moves into their 'vicinity',
and all the interesting things they might find aboard - and/or
have to fend off until they reenter n-space. Evocative maybe,
but not likely possible given canon descriptions.)
Rob
- ---
Rob Davenport 0301 C438875-B 713
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 14:16:04 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Jump drives and damage.
On 15 Mar 2001, at 13:08, William Lane wrote:
>> and yes before you ask there are ships floating around in jump
>> space with dead crews.
>Well that just begs the question (for me at least) - can one run
>into these Marie Celestials while in j-space IYTU?
Well as you stipulated canonically the answer is no. that said this is MTU
so here is the way some things work. The Imperium has never developed the
technology to actually see anything beyond the Jump bubble. now there is
higher tech that can allow this to be done. i have always pictured jump
space as another diminsion like that shown in Babylon 5. you have a set
coordinates you are flying to. any deviation in course and you could become
lost. Higher the tech better chance of being able to manuver about a bit and
still maintain your lock on your jump out coordinates. this has lead to some
interesting adventures for those who had the technology. I figure with as
much handwavium that is used at times in traveller i am allowed a little
creativity 8P
On a side note the loss of power to the power plant once happened to a crew
of players. 2 of the players we sujected to the mind altering effects of
jump Space. Ill say this the 2 players role played excellently and truely
created a Feel that they had become homicidal maniacs. they were bent on the
destruction of the ship and they succeeded in destroying the jump drive of
the ship prior to Jump out. so the Crew of the "Dawn Treader" (yes i know
but i did not name the ship 8P) became trapped in Jump space. unfortunatly
she is still there.
later on when players were playing as evarians they saw their old ship in a
very much ghost ship sort of way.
again i am not totally canonical. I like to allow somethings so i can have
fun and interesting adventures.
anyway hasta
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 23:48:50 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Jump drives and damage.
Rob Davenport wrote:
> Well that just begs the question (for me at least) - can one run
> into these Marie Celestrials while in j-space IYTU?
There's always "Fated Voyage" (Challenge 46) for the OTU position.
Regards PLST
(aka Stalin)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 17:56:11 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: RE: Jump drives and damage.
On 03/15/01 at 01:48 PM, William Lane <wlane@Asera.com> said:
>You and i handle this very simularly. would you mind if i throw a
>few questions at you?
Not at all.
>>Once the crew is ready to jump you actually initiate it. IMTU, this
>>is a four step process
>>(1) turning on the jump grid by the Engineer, "Grid on and hot!"
>>(2) starting the release of "injection mass" (most of the jump fuel)
>>by the Engineer, "Mass Released! Bubble forming!"
>>(3) locking the destination target by the Astrogator, "Target
>>sighted, verified and locked...Go for Jump!"
>Are you saying the Navigator/Astrogator can not actually lay in the
>course till the Jump Bubble forms? if so is he targeting his
>destination through the Jump bubble? or am i miss reading this and
>he just confirming to the captian/bridge crew that the course is
>plotted and locked into the Navigation system?
The Astrogator (or Navigator if you're a CT purist <g>) can set up
the course prior to jump, but that just puts the ship on
approximately the right course. Almost anyone can do this, even
computer programs, but to get an exact course requires a sighting
right at the moment of jump.
See, I'm using the "jump fuel" for two things. Acting to inflate a
bubble of space around the ship (anchored by the jump grid, btw) is
one use. The other is to expand an artifically created wormhole
through which the ship will jump. The wormhole's exact shape can't
be predicted prior to its creating, and proper placement of the ship
inside is required to put the ship at its desired destination. The
Astrogator sights down the mouth of the wormhole that just before
the ship is inserted, locking the *exact* course needed during this
60 second window. A mistake here can lead to disasterous misjumps.
>(>4) and "hitting the button" by the Pilot or Captain, "Course
>>confirmed, bubble up. Insertion!"
>>...up to hitting the button the crew can back out if any of the
>>prior tasks didn't go right, but after hitting that button the ship
>>is gone, irretrievably committed.
>>IMTU, it's a week because it takes that long for the interface
>>between jump and normal space (the edge of the jump bubble) to
>>stabilize. It's the unstable interface that is destructive, and
>>you need that bubble to keep the instability away from the ship's
>>hull. Anything that hits that interface before it stabilizes is
>>going to precipitate back into real space, but as a spray of
>>particles.
>Interesting. So could a ship artificially Stabalize this and drop
>out of jump early?
In theory, yes. Because some jumps naturally end a few hours
earlier than others people have been trying to figure out how to
artifically cause this to happen ever since Jump Drives were
invented. However, in 5,000 years no one has figured out how to
successfully do it. There may be decades between new ideas, or new
generations of researchers, inspire renewed research, but people
still try, and sometimes die trying. Objectively, however, science
is no closer to an answer in 1110 (or 1200, or 0 <g>) than it ever
was.
Plot hook: Scientists charters the PC's ship for some jump space
research, bring devices aboard, the ship goes into jump and *then*
the PC's realize just what it is the scientists are going to
attempt. Results, to taste! <g>
>>Oh, and IMTU, the jump itself takes place in plank time, ie. as
>>close to 0 as you can get. The state of the universe along a
>>straight line path from point A to point B at that instant is what
>>determines things like "jump shadows" and "mass interference."
>>After that instant, the real universe continues for a week and has
>>*no* effect on the ship, until after it emerges.
>Are you saying that for the crew no time passes of very little? and
>if so would crews live what would seem to be much longer lives than
>Downporters? also if that is the case would there be a much more
>abundance of "family" type ships where the crew was or are an
>entire family?
The time inside jump space is still a week for the crew, and a week
(more or less) has passed in real space when they emerge too. It's
just that the *jump* took virtually no time. After the action of
the jump the crew was still stuck in Jump space for a week.
>>So, what happens if you would be emerging inside a mass? IMTU, the
>>smaller mass is violently bounced to the 10 diameter of the other.
>>For in game purposes, IMTU, the ship takes internal *and* external
>>hits equal to the size number of the object with which it would have
>>intersected. This generally means a ship with many systems damaged,
>>disabled or destroyed, and in danger of crashing into the massive
>>object doing even more damage.
>Hmm well popping back out to 10 diameters is much nicer than
>popping up inside of something and trying to occupy the same space
>as something else 8P however big enough object and your talking a
>major ouch. What about say popping into a system with a High Ship
>traffic? lets say you were going to capital. now this i am sure is
>a planet witha very large ship traffic coming and going. when your
>astrogator "targets" his destitnation is there some sort of way the
>crew notifies the traffic control they are inbound so that ships
>stay clear of the Jump in point?
Nope, you just have to count on space being really, really big and
consequently pretty empty. When jumping into busy systems, *I'd*
come in much further out, even further out than 100 dia. just to
make sure I had plenty of empty space. Actually, IMTU, I have ships
routinely emerging 12 to 24 hours away from mainworlds at 1 g. I
want them to have to spend enough time in real space travelling in
and out from jump points to make them *possible* targets for
unethical merchants (and let's not start the p debate again <g>).
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3799
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