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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 16 July 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 259

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Alternate literary sources for Traveller
         2. Re: The Iridium Standard
         3. Re: How the Imperium REALLY fell...Long and Cranky
         4. Re: Long Night and Oxy/Nitro asteroids.
         5. Re: Long Night and Oxy/Nitro asteroids.
         6. Southern???
         7. Re: Rules for Starship Construction (LONG)
         8. Starship Construction Rules
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #226
        10. Re: How the Imperium REALLY fell...Long and Cranky
        11. My Favorite Han Solo Quotes
        12. Re: ID4  ****SPOILER WARNING****
        13. Re: Pop Culture in Trav
        14. Re: Realism
        15. "TNE Wrap-Up" (tying up the loose ends)
        16. Human list admin?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:36:26 PST
Subject: Re: Alternate literary sources for Traveller

In somewhere mysterious you write:

> Asimov, Niven & Pournelle and a few others have been mentioned as 
> inspirations and sources for the Imperium.  The authors are helpful, but 
> also quite limited.  You have vast stellar empires which are not terribly 
> culturally different from the US 1950s/60s.  Also, the focus is primarily
> political/military.

Poul Anderson is *vastly* underrated. He has a bunch of stories about
Nicholas van Rijn, who is one *hell* of a trader. He also has a bunch
about a team of traders (David Falkyn, Chee Lan and Adzel) working for
van Rijn. Titles that come to mind are "The Man Who Counts" and
"Satan's World". These two sets of stories and related ones are lumped
together as "stories of the Poleotechnic League" (that's the "league"
of traders and merchants that pretty much run things, they are
supposedly based somewhat on the Hanseatic League of medieval times)

He also has a bunch of stories set much later in time, involving mostly
a character named Dominic Flandry and Terran Empire, which Flandry
works for.

Plus he has lots of other stuff, much of which may be useful.

Andre Norton's sf is a *must*, she has a *lot* stuff that'll work just
fine. A fair amount of trading, exploration, and adventure. Not much
military. 

A. Bertram Chandler has a lot of stuff, though the technology is
different enough to make things hard to use.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:17:11 PST
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

In somewhere mysterious you write:

>
> On Sat, 13 Jul 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Given that the xboat service is run by a branch of the Imperial
>> government, I'm willing to bet that they won't be any more open to
>> competition.
>>
>> This leads to some interesting scenario possibilities.
>
> My main point, in my earlier post, was: Who distributes
> news/information/mail/etc. to those backwater worlds that are not on
> x-boat communications routes?  Would the Imperium have a few dinky ships
> running an arbitrary schedule, or would they open those routes up to
> private competition...?

More likely they'll award mail contracts to ships willing to maintain
the required schedule. A mail contract will provide a steady (if small)
income, and tend to indicate that your ship is reliable. 

I rather expect that the contract or contracts would be such that you
aren't spending every other week in jump. I'd rather expect that the
contract would be more along the lines of one trip a month. 

Jump in. Spend a couple of weeks seeing if you can line up cargo, and
then jump back. The contract would pay enough to cover your expenses
and maintenance (unless you got into a bidding war with another ship),
so any cargo or passengers are pure profit. 

Of course you have to make sure that you don't haul anything thazt
endangers the mail, and worry about passengers (or pirates) who want to
steal the mail. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:52:52 PST
Subject: Re: How the Imperium REALLY fell...Long and Cranky

In somewhere mysterious you write:

>         Uhhh...and people say they have  trouble suspending their disbelief 
> regarding VIRUS! 60% of the Imperial GNP going to support the naval 
> fleets, and no one catches on...Riiiight!

Hey, the USSR got away with it for decades.

> Doomsday weapons everywhere, 
> and no one has a clue, and NONE of them get used during the black war 
> ...Riiiight! 

The folks with the Doomsday weapons had no need to use them. Nobody
bothered the Darrians or the Zhodani, so they didn't use theirs. And
the rest is no more unlikely than the fact that we haven't* fought a
nuclear war so far.

I was a bit young to understand the Cuban missile crisis, but I do
remember them sending us home to see how long it took, so they'd know
which kids could be sent home and which would have to use the fallout
shelter at the school. 

When I was older, I remember seeing a *very* bright flash just the
other side of the hills (must have been heat lightning) and wondering
if it was the airbase out there being nuked. 

Real history is just as unbelievable as this scenario. Really.

>         With their teleportation system, the Zhodani don't have to
> negotiate with anyone.  Imperial ships just start blowing up whenever they
> get close to the Zhodani sphere. Why waste a warbot, when a TacNuke will
> do just as well? The isolationist policies of the Zho's, as laid out in
> the Rebellion Sourcebook, would guarantee that the Zhodani would not
> threaten the Imperium unless there was a buildup on the Zhodani border,
> and since the Fifth Frontier war cooled off, there hasn't been. 

A doomsday device isn't much good unless the other side *knows* you
have it. That way they won't try attacks that fail and waste your time
and resources trashing them.

As for using a nuke, I got the impression that someone has to teleport
*with* anything that is sent. And since the amplifier is back on their
ship, they can't port back. 

>         All those high tech survivable worlds collapsed when they realized
> that you need more than factories to support a 9 or A Pop, you need food,
> and Joe the food distributor no longer makes calls to your part of the
> universe, and 70-90% of your population starves to death or is killed in
> the food wars before you learn how to farm again. 

I suggest that you sit down and figure out just how *much* food is
required to support a 9 or A pop. Then figure out how much shipping
that'd take. It basically boild down to the fact that worlds with large
populations *must* be self-sufficient with regards to food. Of course,
if the recycling gear breaks....

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:24:15 PST
Subject: Re: Long Night and Oxy/Nitro asteroids.

In somewhere mysterious you write:

> Hi all.  Just thinking about the fate of worlds during the Long Night.  
> Would some high tech vaccuum worlds be able to sustain themselves?  It 
> might not be a pretty existence, but I picture them getting hydrogen from 
> the local gas giant, and other needed gases from asteroids/commets.  
> Don't know if this last part is realistic, though.  Could they get oxygen 
> and nitrogen from gas giants?

Not easily. 

What they'd be doing is mining moons of the gas giants, and looking for
comets, icy bodies in the outer system, and carbonaceous chonridites.

They can get oxygen from any icy body, as well as some nitrogen and
carbon if it has ammonia or methane ice. But carbonaceous chondrites
are the best source of nitrogen, carbon and "organics".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:28:47 PST
Subject: Re: Long Night and Oxy/Nitro asteroids.

In somewhere mysterious you write:

>>This all assumes they have a decent  manufacturing base so that they can
>>produce/repair spacecraft, shelters,  vacc suits and so on.  Food's
>>not that much of a problem if you've got energy and even lunar-type soil.
>
> Quite so!  More than enough energy is available from the local star. 
> And you don't even need soil, aeroponics and hydroponics works just
> fine.  
>
> You could sustain a viable civilization at a lower level of technology
> than you might think.  You don't *have* to have gravtics or even
> fusion.  You do have to have access to minerals, energy, and the tools
> to produce the things you need.

I'm *certain* that WWII tech levels are sufficient to maintain a
civilization in an asteroid belt or airless world, as long as they had
access to icy bodies in the outer system. 

WWI tech *might* be able to do it. And mid-to-late 1800s tech would be
about the limit. 

But for work in the outer system, you really need either *huge* amounts
of fuel, or you need at least radio-isotope power packs, if not nuclear
reactors. (Radio-isotope power packs use the heat from the decay of
short lived isotopes to generate electricity)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 08:43:08 -0500
Subject: Southern???

OK where are you mister southern?

I've got to admit, you're (I think it was you) description of the coke and
peanuts (or should I say goober peas) made me homesick!  'Course I do like a
moon pie and an RC cola now and again.  But my most favorite southern
passtime is crik swimmin.  Nothing like an ice cold crik on a hot summer day!!


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 08:43:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Rules for Starship Construction (LONG)

>From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
>Subject: Re: Rules for Starship Construction (LONG)
>
>On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Paul Walker wrote:
>
>> OK, Here are the rules for Starship construction.  Please go easy on me as
>> I'm a fragil person and don't tear my work apart too much. ;)  Hope this
helps.
>
>Whew!  That's a lot of useful information!  Thanks for posting it.  
>I have aq uestion, though...

I hope everyone found it as useful.  Working in a shipyard, especially a
shipyard that does military work, I could see incredible potential for
running a ship construction campaign.  Of course, I wouldn't want to run a
shipyard in an RPG, but to be on the other end, where the shipyard was
building my ship...I think that could be very enjoyable!!

>
>I'll do some snipping to make it evident what I'm referring to...
>
>
>> Frame Construction:  A shipyard using the Frame Construction method
>> generally will begin construction with the creation of the internal
>> structure and framing of a starship.  After the basic frame structure is
>
>[snip]
>
>> Hull Construction:  The Hull Construction method is typically used with
>> military and other government hulls (*1), odd hull configurations, and hulls
>> with specialized internal designs.  The basic process in this type of
>> construction is to start with the basic structure of the hull, and add the
>> internal structure and components as necessary.  With the aid of
>[snip]
>
>I'm sure it is due to my unfamiliarity with shipbuilding, but I couldn't 
>find very much difference between these two methods.  Can you help me 
>out, please?  They both seem to be saying that they start with the hull, 
>then add other components.  What is the difference between them?
>

The two types are basically the same.  Frame construction basically starts
with the internal structure, that is, the angle, channel, and beams, and
adds the components and the hull plating to this frame, hence (I've alwayse
wanted to use that word) the name Frame construction.

Hull construction begins with the hull plating, held in place with gravtic
tech and/or minimal internal structure.  To this basic hull is added the
necessary internal structure to hold up under the necessary G's and the
necessary other components.  This design is particularly helpful when some
of the components (ie J6) are secret military components and will not be
added untill after the vessel is delivered.

Neither of these types of construction are really used now, I postulated
them based on near zero-G shipyards (in both cases, the frame and the hull
would likely collapse under gravity without the complete support of the other).

Most shipyards currently use a variation on the modular construction.  Most
begin with a hull and do most of the component, hull (fore, aft, and side),
and internal structure, one level at a time.  Typically the construction
begins at the bidbody, and while crews are working on the lowest level for
and aft, other crews are working on the next level midbody.  Naturally due
to delivery schedules and such, not all of the components will necessarily
be ready when the section is being worked on.  In these cases, the part or
material is simply added later.  

Hope this helps.  Let me know if you have any more questions.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 08:43:13 -0500
Subject: Starship Construction Rules

IMPORTANT:

After toying with the rules for a while, I've come to the conclusion that
the time number for "sea trials" time is broken.  The number should be based
on price as well, but I haven't yet come up with an adequate formula.  I'll
post it when I get it ready.  Also, the formulae included are only good an
small hulls.  I don't have a cutoff point yet, but I'm gonna try to work on
it and see.

I'll be getting back to you.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: gsw@aloft.att.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:06:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #226

On Monday, July 15, derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> wrote:
> You might know that you're porticomp is infected, but what if you drop
> it?  What then, some little skate punk comes along, finds it and suddenly
> it's gotten completely out of your hands.

Exactly. And it's worse than that. You can't trust *anything* (at least
not completely) if it's been laying around unprotected. Suppose Virus
altered a screwdriver by inserting a silicon core and placing an "egg"
inside it. It can't do anything to you normally, but what if you try
to use it to pry up a chip (or the 57th century equivalent?). If it
can physically move to the chip, you're in deep guano. Especially if
you were removing the chip to put it in your starship.

That example is a bit contrived and pushing believability (even with
the silicon lifeform concept), but what about this: Virus similarly
infects a piece of wire so that it detects when it is on a "secure"
computer connection and infects the computers then.

I think this is the type of scary scenario you have alluded to in
the past. Virus changed the rules and people could not adapt fast
enough. Now it is not enough to have a "safe" hand computer, you
also have to be *very* careful if you ever take it apart, fix it,
change the batteries, etc. :-)

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:20:39 -0800
Subject: Re: How the Imperium REALLY fell...Long and Cranky

On 15 Jul 96 at 23:52, Leonard Erickson spewed:

> In somewhere mysterious you write:
> 
> >         Uhhh...and people say they have  trouble suspending their disbelief 
> > regarding VIRUS! 60% of the Imperial GNP going to support the naval 
> > fleets, and no one catches on...Riiiight!
> 
> Hey, the USSR got away with it for decades.

Actually, the USSR never spent 60% of GNP on their military.  1 of 
the things that was debunked when the Soviet Union collapsed was how 
much money was spent on their military...  The CIA & DOD found it to 
be a lot less than they supposed...  Then again the USSR had a whole 
lot less to spend...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:15:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: My Favorite Han Solo Quotes

"Wait!  I've got an idea."

"I've got a bad feeling about this."

"It's not my fault!"  <-- (Han Solo *and* Lando Calrissian!)

"Hey!  This is *me* you're talking about!"  <-- (when doubts were expressed
						about one of his plans)

FWC


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:13:38 -0700
Subject: Re: ID4  ****SPOILER WARNING****

Paul Walker wrote:

>>Ya, but send in the marines first.  Imagine the crew on one of those
>>puppies...  Imagaine how many burbly green, psionic, alien queen headed
>>,psychopaths might have survived a crash on one of those things.
> 
> Not to mention their super powered exoskeletal space suits (can you say
> Battledress?)

I knew I was missing something.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 07:17:30 -0700
Subject: Re: Pop Culture in Trav

Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> 
> On 15 Jul 96 at 16:06, Eris Reddoch spewed:
> 
> > On 07/15/96 at 12:40 PM,  Larry Hadley
> > <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> said:
> >
> >
>>>>>...and if that reference means nothing to you, then you know nothin
>>>>>of British pop culture.
> >
>>Want me to tell you what we American's know about British pop culture?
>>
>>Benny Hill, The Avengers, The Good Life, Dr Who, The Saint, The Young
>>Ones, Sherlock Holmes, Agaitha Cristie, and Simply Fabulous!  <g>
> 
>Er...a bit of an addition to this list.  The Goon Show, The Blackadder 
>Series, Monty Python, Fawlty Towers, Ripping Yarns, the collected works 
>of Shelley, Byron, Shakespeare, Samuel Johnson, Charles Dickens...a ton 
>of rock bands from the last 30 years...

You forgot Mister Bean and Red Dwarf.

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:24:01 GMT
Subject: Re: Realism

On Jul 15, 1996 23:12:39, '"Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>' wrote:

 
>> The most important aspect might be internal consistency - set up the  
>> rules of how the universe works, then never violate them.  This is what
a  
>> good fantasy author will do.  Hard science fiction requires more.  Take 

>> what we know about the universe, then fill in any gaps in that knowledge
 
>> with ideas that do not conflict with the things that are known.  That  
>> seems, to me, to be a good rule of thumb, anyway.  Then again, I'm not a
 
>> science fiction author...just a reader. 
> 
 
(A) Violation of internal consistancy, whether you're playing AD&D 
or Traveller, is the prime cause of inability to maintain "suspension 
of disbelief".  As someone else pointed out, what works in Regina 
should work in Core; what works with jumpdrives should work with  
powerplants.   
     (A.1) Be aware of the implications of your technology. 
     (A.2) Human beings should act like real human beings, unless 
           you have a very good explanation for them acting abnormally. 
     (A.3) [PET PEEVE] Technology that exists RIGHT NOW should not be 
           regarded as a rare, expensive, experimental technolgy of  
           several tech levels higher! 
     (A.4) Any technology that has been in use for the last 10,000 years 
           has no real surprises left. (e.g. gravitics, jump drive, fusion,

           lasers, cold sleep) 
 
>Exactly...much more important than splitting hairs and trying to  
>break down basic assumptions.  In present day terms, none of this  
>stuff really works, after all... 
 
(B) The Defense Department projects that have been working on weapons- 
grade lasers and particle weapons for the last 20 years will be real 
surprised to hear that, I'm sure.  So will the guys running the nuclear 
powerplants around the world... And I'm really surprised to find out 
that the computer I'm typing this on doesn't work, nor does the network 
it's hooked up to.  How are you reading this, anyway? 
 
Point being, a lot of the Traveller technology is based on real-world 
engineering; the main exceptions are Jump and Gravitics.  (We're 
working on Fusion now... I expect we'll have that, or something 
totally unexpected, within 30 years.) Make sure the fictional versions 
aren't *less* capable than the Real World versions! (See A.3, above). 
 
(C) Yes, we do have the technology to build a base on the Moon. It 
requires some engineering development, but no fundamental breakthroughs. 
Ditto for a manned Mars mission, and Mars colonization.  And orbital 
habitats. And a number of other things that someone said weren't currently 
possible. 
 
Note that "politically & economically feasible" are not the same 
as "technologically impossible". 
 
                                --Cynthia 
 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---------- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 10:36:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: "TNE Wrap-Up" (tying up the loose ends)

For those of you who *don't* care about TNE, please skip this message...

I sent a message to Dave Nilsen a week ago; I thought you might want to
see his response.

* * * * *

>From DNilsen@msn.com

Yeah, I remember you. I was going to put some of your stuff into Challenge,
but you know what happened to all of that.

Imperium Games has asked me via Loren Wiseman to write just such a TNE "Wrap
Up" project as you mention. I have told them I want to do so, but have not
heard back from them now in over a month. Do not know why.

Perhaps if enough Traveller fans pester them and make their lives miserable
until they get back to me, something will happen.

Until I hear something from them, it is premature to spill beans elsewhere.

Dave

- ----------
From:  Franklin W. Cain
Sent:  Tuesday, July 09, 1996 11:04 AM
To:  Dave Nilsen
Subject:  Hello!

Hi, Dave!  (In case you don't remember me, I sent some papers to you on
deep-space refueling for the RC in TNE, as well as some other stuff.)  I'm
writing to say "Hi" and to see how you're doing.

Will you be joining onto the Traveller mailing lists (traveller@mpgn.com,
xboat@mpgn.com) ?

Remember when DGP stopped covering MegaTraveller?  In their last issue,
they gave us their insider info on the Sparklers/"Baddies at the Core".
I was wondering, would you care to do this for the Black Curtain and/or
the Empress Wave, sort of "tie up the loose ends" for those of us who  
would like to know?  If so, are you going to do this as an article for the
Traveller Chronicle or for the new JTAS?  Just wondering; I, for one,
would like to know the full story on these.

Thanks.  I hope you are doing well.

Franklin


------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:07:47 GMT
Subject: Human list admin?

I know how to get the majordomo automated thingie, but what's 
the mailing address for the human being actually administrating 
this list (Rob Miracle?)  I'd like to alert him to a severe 
potential net-abuse problem. 
 
                   --Cynthia 
 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---------- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #259
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