TRAVELLER Digest 572

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Production Time Of Starships by fredm@datasync.com (Fred May)
  2) Rants by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  3) ODDES and ENDS by D NELSON <dnelson@cps.cmich.edu>
  4) Andy House's Known Space map and info - legit? by Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
  5) Tavonni NPC's by library@babylon5.dss.gov.au (DSS Library)
  6) Re: New timeline?  No way! by PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
  7) Traveller is traveller by kimber@spectra.net (kimber)
  8) Let's Get On With It! by Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
  9) Re: TRAVELLER digest 571 by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
 10) RE: New timeline? No way! by That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
 11) Re: Traveller is traveller by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
 12) Re: Let's Get On With It! by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
 13) More Wish List stuff for the New Traveller by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
 14) Re: 747 vs Starship Construction. by fredm@datasync.com (Paul)
 15) CT/MT and TNE "discussion" by "M.A. Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
 16) Re: 747 vs Starship Construction. by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
 17) comments - and -"Forgotten Futures"? by jeff_michelle nort <103010.212@compuserve.com>
 18) Re: CT/MT and TNE "discussion" by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 16:47:00 -0600
From: fredm@datasync.com (Fred May)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Production Time Of Starships
Message-ID: <199601292247.QAA12496@osh1.datasync.com>

Recently, there has been some discussion about production times of
starships.  I thought I might attempt to shed some light on this subject.  I
am a purchasing agent at a marine shipyard and we are working on a barge
that will take us just over two years to complete.  This vessel has an
approx. steel weight of 3,000 tons.  It is constructed out of Std steel
(FF&S mass # = 8).  This barge is approx. 360' x 90' x 9' or in metric 110m
x 27m x 2.7m.  This totals just over 8,000 cubic meters of displacement.
>From the Hull Size Table in FF&S this is just under 600 displacement tons.
It will take us close to ten months of actual steel construction (Welding,
fitting, erection, etc.) and nearly 18 months of outfitting(passenger
accommodations, electrical systems, water systems, painting, etc.).  Of this
time approx. 4 months will be overlap (ie. painting the midbody while we
erect the bow & stern) giving us a total construction time of 24 months.
This is a barge (ie. no internal drive mechanism), and we are one of the
most productive facilities in the small vessel marine industry.  This vessel
will be on trials for nearly six more months before it is delivered to the
customer.  The reference to the 747 must refer to tons of mass not to
displacement tonnage.  Even if it does displace 170 tons, that probably
refers to water tonnage not liquid hydrogen.  The rate numbers in FF&S are
displacement of liquid hydrogen (14 cubic meters/metric ton) not water (1
cubic meter/metric ton). A big difference.

So lets assume a 747 displaces 170 metric tonnes of water.  This would mean
170 cubic meters of volume or a rate (from the Hull Size Table) of 12 or so.
If we take the numbers at a glance and look up a rate of 170 tons on the
Hull Size Table in FF&S we get a volume of 2,380 cubic meters.  This is the
same as 84,000 cubic feet(20' x 100' x 42', or a cylinder with a 10' radius
and 267' long) I don't think that's the same as any 747 that I've seen.  I
think that even with advances in technology as they are listed, 3 years is a
quick construction time for a vessel of 4400 displacement tons.

I hope this helps clear up the water a bit.


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 19:16:44 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: Trav Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Rants
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960129191515.6375B-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

In the last digest Chris wrote:

>>>>>>>>>
Is there any way we can keep semi-literate, obscene rants like this from
appearing on the list?  Uh, Rob?

--Chris
<<<<<<<<<

Just don't dignify such things with a response, Chris.  It ain't worth it.

Charles.

<0>         "The mind is stranger than it can imagine."<0>
<0> Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), <0>
<0> Psychology Department, McGill University.  <0>
<0> 1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  <0>



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 19:51:48 -0500 (EST)
From: D NELSON <dnelson@cps.cmich.edu>
To: Traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: ODDES and ENDS
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960129194134.12829A-100000@cps206>

Dear sirs,
     I personal Feel that TNE was the best of the three rules systems
traveller had.  Granted it need some work, but the system still did it
job.  This oppion comes from playing and or reading nearly every put out for
traveller.
     PLEASE Note this is my oppion and not gospal.....
                          David Nelson,
                   Leader of the New Rule Order liberation front.


            "It's O.K. were staff...."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 20:34:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Andy House's Known Space map and info - legit?
Message-ID: <Pine.OSF.3.91.960129202443.115A-100000@atlas.sheridanc.on.ca>


I suppose that everyone here has seen Andy House's enormous map
"Imperial Scout Service Guide to the Universe" at
http://eeyore.lv-hrc.nevada.edu/~indy/sectors/sectors.html

Does HIWG formally recognise this map and the info (ie all the sector
names) in it?  Or is it done only by Mr. House's initative?  It seems to
have quite a but of "unoffical" information here, ie. the "Psivak",
"Brimdelish", "Dedrey", "Uuntrergab", "Hlygaash", and "Trakmani", all 2-6
sector governments/races rimward of the Aslan's and Hiver's.

If this isn't offical, pergapse HIWG want's to make it so?  I don't
recall any of these races in any Traveller literature...

BTW, Andy's email address is andyh@magnet.com.  If you're reading this
Mr. House, let me complement you on your remarkable work here!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Alvin Plummer
"Preserve what we created, Norris, and remember what we stood for."
                               - Strephon, 179-1126

Reply to: alvin.plummer@SHERIDANC.ON.CA
------------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 12:50:00 -0600
From: library@babylon5.dss.gov.au (DSS Library)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Tavonni NPC's
Message-ID: <199601302248.MAA20482@babylon5.dss.gov.au>

Dear Folks -

Lewis Roberts asked:
>I just finished reading the RICE paper on Tavonni, it was pretty good.
>Am I wrong in guessing that this was from an old campaign, and that
>the Count and associates were player characters?
>If so do you have stats on them.  Is the current count the
>same count that founded the planet.  He must be pretty old.

Yes. The NPCs are PCs from a *current* campaign. It is set at the time of the
5FW (a different 5FW to that of GDW, for eg. the Zho 40th were wiped out by
PC's with an Ancient's weapon - Twilight's Peak, anyone?). I have modified our
campaign details to be a little more palatable (read "believable") for
everyone.

For example, "Count Leto" is actually _Duke_ Leto _Atreides_ - I'm sorry, he
dates from 1982 when the player was a big fan of Dune. What else do you call a
Naval Duke (which is an easy Soc to achieve thru _High Guard_, BTW)? For the
RICE Paper, I knocked him down to a mere Count and we rolled up a Vilani surname
using the excellent LANGUAGE program available on the Net. As to his age - I
hope that the paper has left the _current_ Count's identity open. It may be
Leto, or a descendant. The current campaign certainly doesn't have all of that
"democratic" crap in it (to do with terminating noble lines, I mean); the
constitution of Tavonni (yes, Veronica, we _have_ created it!) assumes that the
"executive" arm of government belongs to the Count and his heirs, in perpetua.
The day-to-day "legislative" government is elected. I.e., the Count assumes a
similar role to the Australian Governor-General, with a few more powers and the
ability to use them (the real GG has "reserve" powers, but by convention doesn't
use them - except in 1975!). [OK, so I don't mind the feudal system in
Traveller. Look, direct rule is a very efficient form of government... as long
as you have the right "direct ruler". Cleon The Mad is _right out_!!]

"Michael B. Powell" is actually _Baden-Powell_ (does he have a first name, Mr
Traun??) - again, an early (1985) character, but what else do you call a Scout?!

The original owner of Menelvagor was Beowulf Heyerdahl, with his sister Heidi
Maria - these haven't been changed. Yes "Beowulf" came from "Free Trader
Beowulf calling...Help!" - the cover of the little black books. The surname
should be obvious to anyone who has read about Easter Island and the Kon-tiki
expeditions - a perfect name for an adventurer and traveller (which is what
Thor Heyerdahl _is_). It fits a Sword Worlder (Nordic/Germanic origin,
remember?) to a tee.

BTW, "Menelvagor" is the hobbits'<tm> name for Orion, the "Swordsman of the
Sky" - lifted from _Lord of the Rings_. But what a great name for a SW company!

The date of the actual campaign (c. 1105-10) is the reason that early history
is more extensive, and 1130-1201 is patchy. The development timeline has been
extended to fit GDW's "real" history. However, I think that the really early
history, to do with the "buffer zone" idea, fits well into "real" history
without modification. It offers an explaination as to why the Vilis/Lanth
subsectors look like they do - esp. ITO the settlement patterns from _The
Spinward Marches Campaign_.

I can post the (revised) NPCs, if you like. Just let me get onto Andrew Madden
("Leto") and see if he can dig out Leto's stats.

- Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 01:40:34 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: New timeline?  No way!
Message-ID: <01I0LQQKKL4I95RWBP@pimacc.pima.edu>

From:IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM" 29-JAN-1996 12:39:35.71
To:IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  "Multiple recipients of list"
CC:
Subj:New timeline?  No way!

Responding to Phil McGregor:

>>Why not have CTrav and MTrav era settings now republished as part of a *new
timeline* for all those long- term players who were totally pissed off by the
bad joke that was Virus? Have an alternative ending for the Rebellion ... and
let the players work their way through it, don't just jump 70 or 80 years into
the future!<<

Bad idea.    Though theoretically this pleases both sides, what you'd end up
with is the anti-Virus, anti-TNEers, slowly trying to burn the bridges to the
New Era stuff so that eventually the canon becomes this vision of playing out
the next 70-80 years.

Traveller should have _one_ timeline, not several.  At least the official
version.  Otherwise, you risk fragmenting and ruining one of the game's best
features:  it's rich historical background.  If individual refs want to develop
their own post-Rebellion eras, more power to them.  But none of the official,
published, canonized timelines should fragment or otherwise degrade what has
been published to date.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I agree that Traveller should have one time-line but I also strongly feel
that the TNE stuff should be discarded. There is precedent; GDW has inval-
idated alot of the early licensed stuff that has been published, including
sector maps. (They generated new ones to replace the old ones). If individual
refs want to continue with the TNE timeline, "more power to them". Discarding
TNE doesn't fragment the timeline, it just changes it.
======================================================

I was pissed, too, when I found out about the extent of Virus and all that.  But
I think it's ridiculous for people to complain about the canonized version when
they can just as well create their own.

Chris
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That's easy to say when it's not *your* ox that's getting gored. But if it's
true then I'd prefer that *you* create your own continuation of the TNE time-
line while MM supports the one *I* want.

Phil Pugliese (not McGregor)

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu


------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 10:13:53 -0500
From: kimber@spectra.net (kimber)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller is traveller
Message-ID: <199601291513.PAA02082@spectra.net>

Hi folks
        Been off the list for a couple of years and I see not much has
changed. People are firmly planted in camps around there favorite books. The
problem is each of us see Traveller as something different. I think all
versions have their contrabution.
        CT, at least for me, is like that first D&D game I played in the mid
to later part of the 70s. It was fresh and new. To quote someone on the list
it had " zen like simplicity". This is where many of us started and we still
hold it very dear to our hearts.
        MT showed us we like in achanging traveller world. Finaly something
big happened. This where those of us who are " gearheads" could express
ourselves. I know alot of people fail to understand why some of us create
"stuff". My friends all wonder and the reason is simple I get great
enjoyment and feeling of accomplishment when I get a really cool design
done. Thats one of the reasons I play Traveller and not Gurps or any other
system.
        TNE has given my players a chance to do something they never got a
chance to do with CT or MT. They can trully change the outcome of humanity.
In CT or MT the Imperium as a whole was so large even during the rebellion
players were not much of a factor. Sometimes they did important things but
they could not shape the way society operates. In TNE since they are dealing
with such a small scale they can shape the way their world interacts. For
instance in Vampire fleets players action will determine if the coalition
will remain solidly fighting the virus or will it have to take a harder look
at the virus as a sentient being with feelings and rights.
        I know alot of people grumble about the virus. Thats Ok there is
alot of hand waving and its not a great tool for change but it was the only
one that could affect the whole imperium at once. I don't like the virus but
it helped in roleplaying so I have accepted it.
        My suggestion is for tweaking TNE. The system is fairly solid and
covers all the bases. For those who don't like the level of technical
difficulty my suggestion is don't use what you don't want too. As someone
said before its easier to take out detail than put it in. Another suggestion
for Mr Miller is vehical and equipment guides for those who don't like to be
"gearheads". Software would also help in this area. I was under the
impression that Mr Miller was going to be covering a bunch of times in
history of traveller so everyone should be pleased with this.
        Last I know someone was complaing about cyberware, genetics and etc.
First of all trust me the cyberware in Traveller is no where the level in
most cyberpunk campaigns and it does make sence to have it. Genetic
engineering is here now so rest assured it will be better and more popular
by then. Unfortunately progress marches on and drags us with it.
        Well put my 2 cents in
                                        Leigh O'Neil
                                        Kimber@spectra.net
--
Registered ICC User
check out http://www.usefulware.com/icc.html



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 20:41:38 +0900
From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
To: "'Traveller Mailing List'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Let's Get On With It!
Message-ID: <01BAEF53.79343AA0@ppp044.on.rim.or.jp>

I would like to show my complete agreement and support for what =
Christopher Griffen had to say in the latest TML digest.  Bravo!!
I like his suggestion of a new era (I have the same idea), which TNE and =
anti-TNE people can compromise on and work together on.  I think all =
this bickering about a done deed (VIrus, etc.) is only serving to divert =
our energies away from creating a new Traveller setting we can all like. =
 If we can give up on excluding one another, then we can help support =
our favorite game so Mr. Miller's efforts are not futile.
I personally love Virus to death.  It shocked me, but I was very =
interested in it for many reasons.  As I said before, I didn't really =
care for the big stagnant Imperium.  It was like a big faceless and =
characterless beaurocracy, IMHO (of course).  Hard Times is good, but I =
like the element of science fiction that Virus introduces.  To be =
simplistic, we now have a very well thought out AI life form in =
Traveller where previously there was none.  I always thought Traveller =
had the flavor of a lower-tech Star Wars (as far as SF technology goes), =
and one of the many things which I liked about Star Wars was the droids. =
 Data, on STNG, is one of my favorite characters in SF.  But those kinds =
of characters (NPC or PC) were impossible in Traveller until Virus.  =
Aybee of DGP fame was close, but he was a singularity (BTW, go DGP!  =
They really made Traveller great).  Anyway, I welcomed Virus, because it =
was exciting, new, and cleaned out the old making way for the new.  I =
could care less if it was the result of a GDW marketing strategy or =
whatever.
I don't want to see the Wilds stay that way forever, of course.  So, I =
like Christopher's idea about going further into the future.  We can =
help decide the future of Virus and known space to our liking.  And =
*our* includes our TNE-hating friends as well.  We can all work on one =
timeline, just as before.
Everybody has some aspect of the Traveller timeline/history that they =
don't really care for.  But it's not such a major problem!  The RC =
ithin the official timeline, presented in a way as so not to clutter up =
the rules pages.  The rules should be as divorced as possible from the =
setting so that it is easy to use them with one's own unofficial =
campaign universe.  Third, the entire thing, and even all the old =
published material on Traveller, should be on CD-ROM(s), hypertext and =
all.
Did it sound like I just repeated Mr. Miller's ideas?  Good!


------------------------------

Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 00:33:50 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 571
Message-ID: <199601301333.AAA24863@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

Er,

You have misunderstood ... I said that I've run into no-one *LOCALLY* who
likes Virus. They think TNE is OK, and much better than MTRav (most of them,
inlcuding me) as far as the actual rule system is concerned. It's just that
Virus sucks in a major way.

Sure, I can accept that other people like it, probably even locals (tho I've
never run across any in Sydney, or even heard of them!). I just can't
*understand* why they like/accept such an internally flawed (I mean, it even
contradicts its own material in places!) and anti-canon development that
seems to be completely anti-logical and designed by someone who has no idea
of the real world at all regarding security requirements for financial
institutions etc in the face of hackers and the like. Sure, Virus might be
able to crack the IFF boxes, but it would be hard pressed to be as devastating
as is claimed. That aside, *no-one* in the local groups that I known of is
a liker of the idea.

As for trying to make TNE/Trav into Space Opera, you might note that SO had
a TL system as well! Not as detailed as Trav's, but it was there! My dislike
for the concept was something that has become stronger/developed over the
years since then as the idiocies that it leads to have become more and more
apparent.

I say it again, though, even tho the TL system is completely unrealistic,
there are ways of explaining why the Imperium uses it. I've offered one in
my "secret histories" and what I call the "archaeology option" has also been
proposed, as well as those that assume that the Imperium is deliberately
attempting to restrain tech in different ways to these two. There is simply
no value in the current TL system *unless( you make certain assumptions
about why something so flawed is used by the Imperium.

As for FF&S being "realistic" ... that's what I was trying to get at. It's
what GDW would have you believe is *advanced* RIGHT NOW. Unfortunately, as
it's rated in real world terms, it can, and will, be superseded as new
and better developments and new and as yet unthought of theories come into
play. There is no reason why you can't have something as detailed as FF&S
with an abstract value rating system ... use "Energy Points" for rating
Power Plant output and Energy weapon power demand and the like. If *you*
really want to, *you* can assume that 1 EP = 1 Mw. The rest of us can
assume anything we like, and will not be worried when *your* ideas are
dashed by the latest scientific discovery or engineering development.

That's all I'm saying, don't tie yourself down into the current reality too
tight ... that's what has made significant portions of TW:2000 and Traveller
obsolete over the years. Don't give details that byou can be pinned down on -
give *details*, by all means, but not in real world terms!

Phil



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:44:51 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: New timeline? No way!
Message-ID: <199601301344.IAA01912@chopin.udel.edu>

In Reply to Your Message of Tue, 30 Jan 1996 03: 44:14 EST
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:44:51 -0500
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: I agree that Traveller should have one time-line but I also strongly feel
: that the TNE stuff should be discarded. There is precedent; GDW has inval-
: idated alot of the early licensed stuff that has been published, including
: sector maps. (They generated new ones to replace the old ones). If individual
: refs want to continue with the TNE timeline, "more power to them". Discarding
: TNE doesn't fragment the timeline, it just changes it.

Now I thought that the only sector information that they redid was
stuff that was either published by someone other than themselves or
DGP.  Maybe the occasional glaring error, but other than that, nothing
else.

Now, you can say that they changed around some things like m-drives,
j-drive intrisics, etc..., but all that stuff changes nuances of game
play, not the game's actual history.  HEPlaR vs Grav Thrusters?
Brilliant Lances combat is a little harrier, but not much more.
Zuchai crystals vs lanthanum grid?  Nitpicking point.  Virus vs Harder
Times?  How do yo invalidate the past three years?  This isn't a
season of Dallas!

: That's easy to say when it's not *your* ox that's getting gored. But if it's
: true then I'd prefer that *you* create your own continuation of the TNE time-
: line while MM supports the one *I* want.

I'd prefer if Traveller just put itself back together.  All we know of
the Wilds are from the viewpoints of the RCES and The Regency.  For
all we know, even after Virus, most of them aren't any better or worse
off (in 1203) than they were during the Hard Times.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 09:46:51 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Traveller is traveller
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960130144651.0070cc84@TanSoft.com>

At 04:45 AM 1/30/96 -0500, you wrote:
>        TNE has given my players a chance to do something they never got a
>chance to do with CT or MT. They can trully change the outcome of humanity.
>In CT or MT the Imperium as a whole was so large even during the rebellion
>players were not much of a factor. Sometimes they did important things but
>they could not shape the way society operates. In TNE since they are dealing
>with such a small scale they can shape the way their world interacts. For
>instance in Vampire fleets players action will determine if the coalition
>will remain solidly fighting the virus or will it have to take a harder look
>at the virus as a sentient being with feelings and rights.

Welcome back!

The Virus setting is ok and I don't have a problem with it, though I
prefered the days after the Fifth Frontier War.

But you need to seperate the rules from the background.  There are two
totally seperate issues being discussed as one thread.  What rules do we
want Marc use, CT, MT, or TNE, and what era do we want any new Traveller
stuff developed in: Post 5th FW, Rebellion, or Virus.  You seem attached to
the Virus era, which is cool, but how to you feel about the rules.  Would
you rather use CT/MT and run in the virus era?

Just spawning more traffic
Rob
--
Rob Miracle (rwm@TanSoft.com)| GCS d-->--- !H s:++ !g !p au+ a34 w+ !v C++>++++
Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | UU++++$ P--- L+ 3 E--- N+++ K-  W+ M-- V-- -po+
"You have a problem?  I have | Y-- t++ 5>++ jx R+++ G'''' tv+++ b D B- e++ u**
a plan!" -- Anton Devious    | h---- f r+++ n---- y++++


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:14:03 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Let's Get On With It!
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960130151403.006e0940@TanSoft.com>

Armand Suarez basically said that he favored taking the Virus era further
into the future:

As I said earlier, it would be hard if not impossible to go back and work
from any of the previous settings without disrupting others.  Going further
into the future is the only way.

What I would like is that this current era would become another Long Night,
like after the first Imperium crashed.  Marc could start the new Traveller
several hundred years in the future.  Here are some criteria that I would
like to see:

   Virus itself is gone.  I found that no matter how hard I tried virus played
too big a role in the campaign eventhough GDW had clearly ment for it to be
a backdrop and not a day to day occurance.  Lets say a cure for Virus has
been found, and all future electronic devices are immune to Virus.

   All dead bodys, ruined cities, bazillions of plasma rifles from the
lockers of the abandoned Navy Base are gone (ok there is an occasional ruin
to find).  This will eliminate a lot of the scavanging that goes on.  IMO,
TNE's virus setting was too soon, lets not make it a post-apocolyptic game.

   Expand the game to a point where the Domain of Deneb and the RC have met
and fought another series of Intersteller Wars.

   And include a major tech-level jump.  Maybe its time that harnessed
Anti-Matter drives for faster than J6 engines were in the game.  FTL
communications, while expensive are possible, bascially replacing the Xboat
routes with FTL hubs.  Communications from the FTL hubs to individual worlds
would still be by normal jump means.  Have transporters functional etc.

Advantages:
  1.  Traditional CT/MT type campaigns can be ran
  2.  Virus campaigns can still be ran in fringe areas
  3.  Gives people something fresh to play with (new tech) and makes TL16 real.

Of course people could still use the new Rules to play Virus era, Rebellion
Era, and Post War era campaigns, just as they do now.

Seems like a win-win for everyone.

Rob
--
Rob Miracle (rwm@TanSoft.com)| GCS d-->--- !H s:++ !g !p au+ a34 w+ !v C++>++++
Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | UU++++$ P--- L+ 3 E--- N+++ K-  W+ M-- V-- -po+
"You have a problem?  I have | Y-- t++ 5>++ jx R+++ G'''' tv+++ b D B- e++ u**
a plan!" -- Anton Devious    | h---- f r+++ n---- y++++


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:20:24 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: More Wish List stuff for the New Traveller
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960130162024.00705d14@TanSoft.com>

One of the things that I would like to see is a "Referees guide to Research
Stations".  This would include several floor plans for example research
stations (both orbital and planetside), descriptions of what research is
going on a each research station.  For the most part, people basically
travel within a single sector, or two adjacent sectors.  If we had 16-20
research station descriptions, then we could fill out our campaigns better.
These could be a series of mini-adventures like the small books used to
have.  Or it could just be a brief description of a sector's worth of RS.

Spinward Marches Alpha: Project Longbow (brief description)
                 Beta:  Jump-6 drives
                Gamma:  Ancients and Chirpers
etc.

That way, we can use these in our campaigns and remain canon with the real
world.

Rob
--
Rob Miracle (rwm@TanSoft.com)| GCS d-->--- !H s:++ !g !p au+ a34 w+ !v C++>++++
Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | UU++++$ P--- L+ 3 E--- N+++ K-  W+ M-- V-- -po+
"You have a problem?  I have | Y-- t++ 5>++ jx R+++ G'''' tv+++ b D B- e++ u**
a plan!" -- Anton Devious    | h---- f r+++ n---- y++++


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:05:13 -0600
From: fredm@datasync.com (Paul)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: 747 vs Starship Construction.
Message-ID: <199601301705.LAA08048@osh1.datasync.com>

Since my last post. . .

> This is the same as 84,000 cubic feet(20' x 100' x 42', or a cylinder with a
> 10' radius and 267' long) I don't think that's the same as any 747 that I've
> seen.

. . .I have done some research (http://www.boeing.com/747.html). I have
discovered that the length of a 747 is approx. 232 ft. (or about 70.75
meters).  Each seat is about 30" plus 3-4" for armrest.  I believ a 747 is
situated seat, seat, seat, isle, seat, seat, seat yeilding an approx
diameter of 20 ft. (or about 6 meters).  Vol(in Cubic Meters) =
[(PI)*r(Sqd))*length (for a cylinder).  Plug in the numbers and you get 2000
cubic meters or a FF&S rate of 143.  Add in wing, tail, and engine volumes
and a displacement tonnage of 170 is not so far fetched.

The point?  Ah, Yes, the point. (I was going somewhere with this.)  I was
wrong in my last post and my apologies go out to all those whose ideas I
might have attempted to debunk.  It appears that 170 was the correct rate
after all.

I still have problems buying the starship-a-day theory.

Paul

"I still need a good tagline"

P.S. if anyone has found a flaw in my math please say so.  I'm no engineer,
just                                                                 work
with a bunch (bleah!).


------------------------------

Date:          Tue, 30 Jan 1996 16:50:27 +0100 (BST)
From: "M.A. Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: CT/MT and TNE "discussion"
Message-ID: <2E672C84B14@daisy.le.ac.uk>

So, the Traveller ring is full with CT/MT in one corner and TNE in
the other.  The referee appears to be FF&S given the fact that
everyone seems to think it's rather cool, though some think that it
could lose some weight (i.e., FF&S "Lite").  *Ding* the fight started
and it doesn't seem that anyone is hearing the bells for the end of
the round ;-)

Generally, MT had a lot going for it (sorry, I haven't even *seen* CT
let alone played the game... maybe I missed out on some huge
formative experience?), but there were some problems.  Well, apart
from the errata.  From what I can gather people liked the CGen
system, though the vehicle design was a bit on the strange side, and
thought that everthing else was cool enough.  TNE on the other hand,
is "too complicted," or a wargamers dream... combat is over-complex,
character generation isn't detailed enough and concentrates on
military careers.  Oh yes, the Virus sucks...

Personally, I'm in the TNE corner.  I like the rules system since
they offer a detailed system *should it be required,* with a simple
task resoltuion system and none of those pesky "hit points" that MT
and 2300 AD were so found of.  MT, however, had the simplicity to be
instantly "playable."

Isn't there any middle ground that can be found?  Everyone talks
about an FF&S "Lite," but what about a Traveller "Lite?"  Two levels
of complexity... if you want the detail, then take it.  Surely this
wouldn't be too hard to do. (Sorry if it brings up shades of
Dangerous Journeys/Mythus and it's Mythus Prime and Mythus Advanced,
but there we go.)

As someone said, it's the background that is important.  People seem
mostly disgruntled with the whole virus-thing, which was apparently
used just to add to the death, doom and estruction at the end of the
Rebellion (like, sure, it was needed after the Final War!?).  Maybe
just take it back to the Third Imperium?  Advance it to the Fourth
Imperium?  Has anyone heard from Marc Miller about what he intends to
do (with the system, background, etc) about this?  Surely that would
stop some of the muck that is flying at the moment?

I like the sound of being able to play in different time periods
(Ancients, Terran Confederation, etc.).  Just thought that I would
say.

(Oh what it is like to be flamed... ;-)

--MARK

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:09:30 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: 747 vs Starship Construction.
Message-ID: <9601301809.AA15167@Rt66.com>


> . . .I have done some research (http://www.boeing.com/747.html). I have
> discovered that the length of a 747 is approx. 232 ft. (or about 70.75
> meters).  Each seat is about 30" plus 3-4" for armrest.  I believ a 747 is
> situated seat, seat, seat, isle, seat, seat, seat yeilding an approx
> diameter of 20 ft. (or about 6 meters).  Vol(in Cubic Meters) =
> [(PI)*r(Sqd))*length (for a cylinder).  Plug in the numbers and you get 2000
> cubic meters or a FF&S rate of 143.  Add in wing, tail, and engine volumes
> and a displacement tonnage of 170 is not so far fetched.

Huh?  Last time I was on a 747 it was (S=seat, _=isle):

SSS_SSSS_SSSThe middle row of seats may have had 5, but I always go
for the window so I'm not sure :-)  I'd say you were thinking of First
Class, but 1st class is on the upper deck.  I've been in 747-300 and 400
models, so it might not be the same for all.  Most of th4e changes
involve stretching the fuselage, though, not changing the cross section.

As a side note, I found the post on the actual construction times for the
barge very infomative.

Regards,
Merrick

------------------------------

Date: 30 Jan 96 13:49:08 EST
From: jeff_michelle nort <103010.212@compuserve.com>
To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: comments - and -"Forgotten Futures"?
Message-ID: <960130184907_103010.212_GHU56-1@CompuServe.COM>

I hope that MM will just take the time to DO IT RIGHT. TNE is a good
system and covers a lot of ground. But, it should have a GAP software aide to
help the FF&S design prossess, maybe with a GM 'wizard' to help out in combat
and time keeping.
I also hope that MM DOES NOT abandon the virus era. There is a lot of
great potential there and a bunch of stuff is already done. It seems a shame to
forgo the ongoing storyline and leave alot of us "hanging in the breeze".
My hope is that the "New System" is backward compatable and able to use
the old with the new and vise-versa. I have a loose-leaf binder filled with
designs from the various design systems. What is needed is an easy to follow
design with enough detail to make the designs "personal". I had a ball designing
a 50 ton fighter and would love to transfer it over. I guess i'll have to
wait....
I just wonder if MM plans to re-release the old products, market them out
to someone, or what ever. I have a collection, but far from complete. I've
called several wharehouse companies and found out the reason Jesse James used a
gun. One guy told me that Traders & Gunboats was going for $45! Yikes! Makes me
want to cry when my dog ate mine 15 years ago. ( I wonder if the tech has
advanced enough to.... never mind)
Oh, and it feels good to have MM back at the helm. Right where he
belongs.

I tried to get a copy of Forgotten Futures and my server sayz "cannot
find requested server". Anyone out there have a copy or a correct address? This
is the one I got:
HTTP://WWW.TEIRZUCHT.UNI-KEIL.DE/~SMA/ForgottenFutures/
Any help would be appriciated.




------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 14:04:27 -0500
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: CT/MT and TNE "discussion"
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960130190427.00e2e010@TanSoft.com>

At 12:47 PM 1/30/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Isn't there any middle ground that can be found?  Everyone talks
>about an FF&S "Lite," but what about a Traveller "Lite?"  Two levels
>of complexity... if you want the detail, then take it.  Surely this
>wouldn't be too hard to do. (Sorry if it brings up shades of
>Dangerous Journeys/Mythus and it's Mythus Prime and Mythus Advanced,
>but there we go.)

That was the beauty of CT.  It had simple core rules.  They added
expansions, like more indepth character generation, more indepth ship
construction (Book 5 High Guard), more indepth wargame combat (Striker) a
more indepth trading system (Merchant Prince Book 7) and a more indepth
system generation (Scouts Book 6).  Want more character types, Supplement 4
Citizens of the Imperium etc.

We had a KISS (Keep it Simple Silly) set of core rules and we could extense
as we needed to.  Though some future supplements like Supplement 9 Fighting
Ships published their ships with High Guard stats, you could still pull the
core information out with ease.

MegaTraveller attempted to merge CT with the supplements into an all
inclusive system and along with the errata, this is where it got into
trouble.  Suddenly the game was more complex (though some liked it that way)
and it just wasnt the same any more.  Then along came TNE.

The discontent with TNE isnt just with a few.  A whole mailing list exists
for those who don't like TNE to continue discussing the older Traveller
products and that list has almost as many subscribers as the main list and
in many cases most are duplicates.  Why?  TNE just didn't do it for many of
the older Traveller lovers.  There were some good enhancments, like FF&S
(though some would argue that point), but it still left a bad taste with
many of us old timers.  I bought about every TNE product out there and I ran
a TNE campaign, but it was never the same.

So I think (IMO) that the Traveller Public would like to see a set of simple
core rules, with addon enhancments (but don't include them in the same book
please).  Come out with smaller and more frequent supplements and adventures
(and more cost effective).  Detail more aliens.  The Alien "Modules" were
one of the greatest additions to the game, just as we looked forward to each
quarters JTAS for a new "Contact" chapter.  FF&S is great, but don't make me
have to use it.

Rob (time to stop ranting)
--
Rob Miracle (rwm@TanSoft.com)| GCS d-->--- !H s:++ !g !p au+ a34 w+ !v C++>++++
Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | UU++++$ P--- L+ 3 E--- N+++ K-  W+ M-- V-- -po+
"You have a problem?  I have | Y-- t++ 5>++ jx R+++ G'''' tv+++ b D B- e++ u**
a plan!" -- Anton Devious    | h---- f r+++ n---- y++++


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 572
***************************
