Subj: Traveller-digest V1999 #1385
Date: 11/23/99 1:48:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com
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Traveller-digest Tuesday, November 23 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 1385
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Classic Traveller Reprints
Re: Laws of War
re: Slavery
Rules of War
Re: Ideological Warfare
Re: Weapons of mass destruction (Was: Traveller Nav, Gun...)
Virus?
OT: The Death Star (was Re: Mass Destruction)
Re: Virus?
Re: MONGO NATIONAL GUARD FLEES IN TERROR!!
Which Traveller?
Re: Virus?
Re: Imperial culture
Re: Two things....
Re: Virus?
Re: Slavery was Re: Ideological Warfare...
Re: Imperial culture
Re: Slavery was Re: Ideological Warfare...
Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery (longish)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:50:02 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch"
Subject: Re: Classic Traveller Reprints
On 11/22/99 at 02:21 PM, Walter Smith said:
>Looking at MM's page on the Classic Traveller Reprints,
>HTTP://members.aol.com/Traveller/T401-00.html ,
>I'm looking forward to a chance at the entirety of the original JTAS
>run - I've read about six issues, and the Best of JTAS #1 - #4, but I
>know I missed a lot of good stuff. $28+shipping per 12 issues
>certainly beats the current $5-$10 per issue I'm seeing on EBay for
>back issues.
That's the one place that I have you beat then Walt. I bought every
one of the Journals and I have all but a couple of the Challenges.
What I don't have are all the Traveller and MT Digests. If
only "He Who Should Be Shot" would agree to let *them* be reprinted.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:54:58 -0800
From: "Luther Martin"
Subject: Re: Laws of War
Today, the use of reprisals, should one side violate the conventions, is
still
tightly controlled:
(The Commander's Handbook on the Law of Naval Operations (NWP 1-14M))
"6.2.3 Reprisal. A reprisal is an enforcement measure under the law of armed
conflict consisting of an act which would otherwise be unlawful but which is
justified as a response to the unlawful acts of an enemy. The sole purpose
of a reprisal is to induce the enemy to cease its illegal activity and to
comply with the law of armed conflict. Reprisals may be taken against enemy
armed forces, enemy civilians other than those in occupied territory, and
enemy property.
6.2.3.1 Requirements for Reprisal. To be valid, a reprisal action must
conform to the following criteria:
1. Reprisal must be ordered by an authorized representative of the
belligerent government. (For the rule applicable to the United States, see
paragraph 6.2.3.3).
2. It must respond to illegal acts of warfare committed by an adversary
government, its military commanders, or combatants for which the adversary
is responsible. Anticipatory reprisal is not authorized.
3. When circumstances permit, reprisal must be preceded by a demand for
redress by the enemy of his unlawful acts.
4. Its purpose must be to cause the enemy to cease its unlawful activity.
Therefore, acts taken in reprisal should be brought to the attention of the
enemy in order to achieve maximum effectiveness. Reprisal must never be
taken for revenge.
5. Reprisal must only be used as a last resort when other enforcement
measures have failed or would be of no avail.
6. Each reprisal must be proportional to the original violation.
7. A reprisal action must cease as soon as the enemy is induced to desist
from its unlawful activities and to comply with the law of armed conflict."
I would have to assume that in the 3I, similar restrictions are in place.
Even if there are no *written* treaties. The Geneva Conventions are only
about 50 years old, if I remember correctly (that's a big if), but the same
principles have been followed for quite a while. After over a thousand years
of interstellar war, I would expect the same types of conventions to be
followed, even if they are not in writing.
Maybe the 3I canon setting is not so unbelievable after all...
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Smith
To: 'TML'
Sent: Monday, November 22, 1999 8:52 PM
Subject: re: Laws of War
> It seems I spoke too soon.
>
> My interpretation of the various Hague and Geneva conventions was
> incorrect. While it is true that the involvement of even one belligerent
> releases other belligerents from following the agreements, the
> release from the agreements appears to apply to all belligerents
> in the conflict, regardless of which side (or sides) they may be on.
>
> ObTrav: Wanna see what happens when a junior diplomat on the
> spot has a different understanding of the intent of a treaty than the
> senior who gave him his orders six months ago? Paging Mr. Retief...
>
> (Granted, Retief's interpretation of a treaty was generally 1000%
> better than his boss's...)
>
> Walt Smith
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 16:56:57 +1000
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au
Subject: re: Slavery
The Roc said
>>>
All of these were actually aloowed (if not welcomed) into Roman society, but
when they worked against the Roman ways (gov't, etc.) were they repressed.
Christianity was repressed because of it's belief that there is only one
true god and that was heavily against Roman ways and it's belief in
polythesionism.
<<<
It was worse than that. Before the Diasporia, the early christians concidered
themselves Jews (as Yesuda of Nazereth was King of the Jews) . The Jews
themselves wanted nothing to do with a heritical sect (as for among other
things, jepodised their concesions with the empire in terms of worship of Ceasar
et al). So in order to prevent all of these "fake jews" claiming benifits that
the jews had, the christians where persicuted.
Darryl
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 22:00:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Kyle Schuant
Subject: Rules of War
Walt wrote:
ObTrav: Wanna see what happens when a junior diplomat
on the
spot has a different understanding of the intent of a
treaty than the
senior who gave him his orders six months ago? Paging
Mr. Retief...
Kyle adds: good IRL example, the British and teir
recent thing of whether or not nukes are lawful. Note
that the Geneva conventions and protocols prohobit the
use of weapons that:
"...cause superfluous injury or unneccesarry
suffering..."
"...cause widespread long-term and severe damage to
the natural environment"
"...Acts or threats of violence the primary purpose of
which is to spread terror among the civilian
population are prohibited."
and also prohibited are "indiscriminate" weapons such
as "...Those which employ a method or means of combat
which cannot be directed at a specific military
objective..."
And there are those that say nukes fall into this
category. The Brit government disagrees, but its
scottish courts do not, saying that a person who'd
vandalised a Trident submarine couldn't be prosecuted,
because that submarine was illegal under international
law. The UK govt says the conventions apply only to
"conventional" weapons, not nukes. Hmmmm....
So a diplomat certainly could have a different
interpretation to his own government.
Cris Seamans asks why ban rocks but not energy
weapons? I don't know, why ban gas but not nukes? Why
ban poisoned bullets but not agent orange? Why ban
serrated bayonets and shotguns but not frag grenades?
I can only answer that some weapons are more
"terrible" than others, in the sense of inspiring more
terror and horro. Gas, for example, definately is
scarier than bullets, regardless of statsistics of
deadliness. And I will be more scared of a screaming
mad looking soldier charging at me with a serrated
bayonet, than Fritz with his frag grenade. Strange but
true.
=====
KA Schuant
member: Chef's Guild International, Sporting Shooter's Assoc, Amnesty Int, Carlton Soccer Club
Melbourne
Australia
"Duct tape is like the Force: it has a light side, a dark side, and it binds the universe together"
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:02:36 -0600
From: "Eris Reddoch"
Subject: Re: Ideological Warfare
On 11/22/99 at 12:00 PM, Kiri Aradia Morgan said:
>I would tend to agree with you; that's why I mentioned that it was
>what he said. But I can't remember what Carthage was about... it's
>being one of those days at work, and the period of history I know
>best begins with Julius Caesar and ends with the Enlightenment, at
>least as far as Europe is concerned. =) Forgive my space brain and
>tell me if there was an ideological component to Carthage or if it
>was one of those hundreds of years of ethnic hatred due to close
>competition things.
Culmination of the Punic Wars. It wasn't ideological, exactly. It
wasn't racial, exactly. It wasn't religious, at all. I'd say it
was mostly economic and political.
Let's say the young Third Imperium had a competing state that was
almost as large and powerful. This competing state was actively
courting systems to join it, and succeeding more often than the
Imperium likes. The Imperium and this state go to war time and
again, but neither side can really defeat the other. It's not
racial, it's not ethnic, it's not religious, but both sides are
going to grow to hate and despise each other. Finally, the Imperium
finds a way to capture their opponent's capital, and they make "an
example" of it. Then they offer "terms" to the rest of their
opposition..."accept our terms or suffer the fate of Carthage."
Is this how the Julian Wars would have ended *if* the Imperium had
won?
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:18:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Weapons of mass destruction (Was: Traveller Nav, Gun...)
In mail you write:
>>The K'Kree gladly nuke "bad" worlds, but won't destroy inhabitable (to
>>them) worlds that way. Aslan follow the Imperial way of thinking, but
>>some clans just *might* have an ace or two up their sleeve.
>
> I'd say this is right on... "Don't push us, or we'll prove to you
> wether or not we have nuclear weapons...."
This is a good place to point out that cultural differences can get you
in *real* trouble with this sort of thing. As an extreme example, check
out L.E. Modesitt's "Adiamante".
A culture that considers "if you do that, we'll do this" to be a form
of aggression. Likewise for displays of force. All they can do is try
to set up situations where if their "visitors" can actually stop and
*think through* the implications of things they are seeing, they might
figure out that they'll be in big trouble if they start anything.
And, naturally, part of the problem is that even when they let the
"vistors" read a copy of the "rules" they live by (or the basic
principles behind them) the visitors reaction is "They can't *really*
mean that".
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:33:38 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Virus?
Okay, here's another one.
Can anyone summarize for me, preferably in 200 words or less, the
exact relationship between the TNE Virus and the CT "living chips"
of Cymbeline?
(I'm doing world capsule descriptions in order, I'm about to hit Arcturus
subsector, and I *really* ought to have a sidebar on Why Virus Hasn't
Happened and Probably Won't in the G:T timeline. And me without a
copy of the Virus Sourcebook. . .)
- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:41:53 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich"
Subject: OT: The Death Star (was Re: Mass Destruction)
Leonard wrote:
> Nope. Doesn't match the photos. For that size, and the size of the
> central trench, relative to the diameter of the DS, when we get to the
> shot where the trench almost fills the screen, the hangar bay wouldn't
> be *visible*.
And Richard wrote:
> I thought it was the second Death Star that was 120 km? IIRC, someone
> worked it out using the amount that the hull curved in relation to the
> length of the command ship that crashed into the DS in ROTJ.
I point you toward the incredibly overdone Star Wars Technical Commentaries:
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ds.html
More than you ever wanted to know about the Death Star, all on one page. It
includes an assessment of size based on several measuring techniques.
Ciao,
Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:57:05 -0600
From: Black ICE
Subject: Re: Virus?
JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
>
> Okay, here's another one.
>
> Can anyone summarize for me, preferably in 200 words or less, the
> exact relationship between the TNE Virus and the CT "living chips"
> of Cymbeline?
From _Survival Margin_, page 79:
"When Chief of Combined Intelligence Admiral Herzoch Stearns ordered the
development of an offensive virus based on the Cymbeline chips, he
planned to use the talents of 'wild strain' chips which could command
prey chips to cut new circuitry without having to come into physical
contact with them."
Ibid, page 79:
"The two main strengths of the virus, its heritage from the Cymbeline
chips, were 1) its intelligence, and 2) its ability to cut new
circuitry, i.e., embed itself in hardware, not just software."
>
> (I'm doing world capsule descriptions in order, I'm about to hit Arcturus
> subsector, and I *really* ought to have a sidebar on Why Virus Hasn't
> Happened and Probably Won't in the G:T timeline. And me without a
> copy of the Virus Sourcebook. . .)
Hope those two quotes help, and good luck on your project.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:07:10 -0600
From: Dan Roseberry
Subject: Re: MONGO NATIONAL GUARD FLEES IN TERROR!!
Glenn Goffin wrote:
>
> (I am reposting this message as most of it was cut off
> in the first transmission.)
>
> MONGO NATIONAL GUARD FLEES IN TERROR!!
> Zhodanis occupy capital
> Ming the Merciless Missing
Josh W. Spencer wrote:
>Glenn:
>IS this an actual campaign? If so, when does Flash Gordon, Dale Arden
>and Dr. Zarkov show up? :) :)
Yes! Yes! And all of us lurkers want the stats for Ming the Merciless!
Dan Roseberry(Plop 101) IMTU: tc++ tm++ he+ Dr+ Ne+ Da+ etc.
plop, (`plop) -n. def. 2; penguin light ortillery platoon ;-)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:31:14 -0800
From: "Tim MacPherson"
Subject: Which Traveller?
I am looking to pick up a starter set of Traveller. I used to have Traveller
Classic ...yeeeears ago. Now there is all kinds of editions. I don't have a
group ...so if I did play it would most likely be by PBEM. CT? GURPS? T:NE?
T4?
Help a newbie (sorta)
Tim MacPherson
Kelowna,BC
CANADA
timac@home.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 02:31:22 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Virus?
In a message dated 11/23/99 1:55:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,
wombat@premier.net writes:
> "When Chief of Combined Intelligence Admiral Herzoch Stearns ordered the
> development of an offensive virus based on the Cymbeline chips, he
> planned to use the talents of 'wild strain' chips which could command
> prey chips to cut new circuitry without having to come into physical
> contact with them."
Many thanks.
Now, who was this fellow? Some Solomani officer who found out about
the chips after the Solomani overran Cymbeline? Or an Imperial officer?
The point is: can I assume that the Imperium knows about the chips
in 1120 of the alternate timeline?
- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:51:21 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Imperial culture
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Subject: Re: Imperial culture
...
>Other possibilities:
>
>Chinese Imperial bureaucracy.
>Cultural Russians, "reviving" the Czarist model.
>Roman Revival.
consider:
the probable linguistic roots of "Aslan"
the population described in A:9, Nomads of the World Ocean.
the basis (AM:8, p.8) of the Darrian technical explosion.
The OTU is _Turks in Space_! And while you might not want to turn your
backs on them, at least they're humble about their achievements :>
Deal with it :)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:52:34 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Two things....
...
>> posses a credit card and sending a cheque in US dollars is problematic
>> for us Brits, but the archive article gave me enough background to work
>> on. Thanks again - excellent article.
>
>Check with the Post Office and various banks. Odds are that you can buy
>a Money Order in US funds without *too* much trouble.
I was pleasantly surprised recently to discover that I could buy Canada
Post IMO's in sterling - that expands the amount and type of products that
I'm willing to mail-order from the UK; I've been told that you can get $US
IMO's in Japan (my first auction sale to Asia! :> ).
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:57:37 -0600
From: Black ICE
Subject: Re: Virus?
JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
>
> In a message dated 11/23/99 1:55:47 AM Eastern Standard Time,
> wombat@premier.net writes:
>
> > "When Chief of Combined Intelligence Admiral Herzoch Stearns ordered the
> > development of an offensive virus based on the Cymbeline chips, he
> > planned to use the talents of 'wild strain' chips which could command
> > prey chips to cut new circuitry without having to come into physical
> > contact with them."
>
> Many thanks.
>
> Now, who was this fellow? Some Solomani officer who found out about
> the chips after the Solomani overran Cymbeline? Or an Imperial officer?
An Imperial Navy officer, Admiral Stearns served as Chief of Combined
Imperial Intelligence from 1097 to 1108 (_Survival Margin_, page 71).
>
> The point is: can I assume that the Imperium knows about the chips
> in 1120 of the alternate timeline?
Yes, the Imperium knows about these chips in 1120. After all, the
SDG-313F strain of chips, a "lobotomized" version of the Cymbeline
chips, was introduced as the basis for Imperial transponders in 1088
(ibid, pages 70-71). Further, since Admiral Stearns ordered the
development of Virus during his tenure as Chief of Combined Imperial
Intelligence, the possibility of Virus was recognized no later than
1108. Finally, Dr. Arnold Rushorin, formerly of the Free University of
Aquitaine, defected to the Imperium in 1110, and published a
heavily-censored paper on the Cymbeline chips in 1114 (ibid, page 72).
Sorry I can't provide more detailed information, but _Survival Margin_
is the only TNE sourcebook I own.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:49:42 -0800
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan"
Subject: Re: Slavery was Re: Ideological Warfare...
From: The Roc
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan
>>
>> Rome actually was a pretty good place to live throughout most of its
>> history; it gets a bad rap due to Sunday School stories, but Christianity
was one of the few religions it *DIDN'T* tolerate and that was because the
Christians were actively campaigning against the gov't-- Rome ignored
religion except when it interfered with government and only ever really got
seriously into oppressing three religions: Zoroastrianism, Druidism and
Christianity.
>>
>All of these were actually aloowed (if not welcomed) into Roman society,
but when they worked against the Roman ways (gov't, etc.) were they
repressed. Christianity was repressed because of its belief that there is
only one true god and that was heavily against Roman ways and it's belief in
polythesionism.
>
No, that is *not* it.
The Jews had only one god and they were left alone. They were even given an
exemption from worshipping the Emperor-- but they didn't refuse to serve in
the army or pay taxes because of their beliefs. (Some Christians refused to
pay taxes, I forget the exact reason, and many Christian groups prior to the
Council of Nicaea were pacifist.) There were all kinds of problems with
Christians not obeying various Roman laws which is why so many of the
epistles stress obedience to the established order. That whole "women
should obey their husbands" thing that Christian women get slammed down
their throats is being taken out of context-- it's from a larger sermon
wherein the importance of obeying societal laws is being stressed, in which
slaves are also told to obey their masters. Many early Christians were
antinomian, or "anti-law", believing that the Old Testament Law was not the
only law they didn't have to follow on account of Jesus' sacrifice.
Also, the Jews were mostly born into their religion, whereas Christianity
was spread by conversion. Hmmm... you are a large Empire, and you have a
religion sweeping thru your society by conversion that is causing people to
disobey their superiors and the law generally, how do you handle it? Unless
you're Constantine, and can see the wisdom of taking it over and trying to
control it, you probably try to suppress it...
Kiri
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God...
tiamat@tsoft.com
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere. There's
a deity out here who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side,
disposing of only what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving
yourself permission."
-- Jack Darkhand
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 23:53:24 -0800
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan"
Subject: Re: Imperial culture
From: Leonard Erickson
>In mail you write:
>
>> On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Robert Eaglestone wrote:
>>
>>> Who says Imperial culture is Western?
>>>
>> I would expect Imperial culture in any given TU to reflect the culture or
cultures that the referee comes from, modified by what historical reading
the ref has done and what sort of SF the ref likes to read. This isn't
particularly logical but it makes for better gaming.
>>
>Just consider the temptations for a ref who is interested in Japanese
culture, and is fond of Shogun and samurai movies.
>
And we don't know anyone at all like that, do we??
>Now *that* would be an interesting Imperium. And oddly enough, you could
even justify it, by extrapolating from Japanese dominance in various
industries and their interest in space.
>
This was the basis of my Shiratori Colonies stories-- and Shiratori and its
colonies exist in my TU.
>Other possibilities:
>
>Chinese Imperial bureaucracy.
I'm thinking about writing one of those too.
>Cultural Russians, "reviving" the Czarist model.
>
That'd be cool.
>Roman Revival.
>
Overdone, but would be interesting to see done WELL.
>If I won the lottery, I'd be tempted to hire a few anthro majors and dig up
what's known about *all* the cultures on Earth, and see what we could do in
the way of trying to "grow" them into industrial cultures, and then on to
planet-spanning cultures, spacefaring cultures, starfaring cultures, and
finally to interstellar cultures. It'd make for one *hell* of a sourcebook.
Probably more like a *series* of sourcebooks.
>
Can I help?
Kiri
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God...
tiamat@tsoft.com
"That wickedness weltering around inside of you, inside of everyone, is
sacred somewhere. There's
a deity out here who digs it. You can respect and love your darkest side,
disposing of only what is obsolete or impractical. It's all about giving
yourself permission."
-- Jack Darkhand
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 22:28:51 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn"
Subject: Re: Slavery was Re: Ideological Warfare...
On 22 Nov 99, at 23:49, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> From: The Roc
> >From: Kiri Aradia Morgan
> >>
> >> Rome actually was a pretty good place to live throughout most of its
> >> history; it gets a bad rap due to Sunday School stories, but
> >> Christianity
> was one of the few religions it *DIDN'T* tolerate and that was because the
> Christians were actively campaigning against the gov't-- Rome ignored
> religion except when it interfered with government and only ever really
> got seriously into oppressing three religions: Zoroastrianism, Druidism
> and Christianity. >> >All of these were actually aloowed (if not welcomed)
> into Roman society, but when they worked against the Roman ways (gov't,
> etc.) were they repressed. Christianity was repressed because of its
> belief that there is only one true god and that was heavily against Roman
> ways and it's belief in polythesionism. > No, that is *not* it.
>
> The Jews had only one god and they were left alone. They were even given
> an exemption from worshipping the Emperor-- but they didn't refuse to
> serve in the army or pay taxes because of their beliefs. (Some Christians
> refused to pay taxes, I forget the exact reason, and many Christian groups
> prior to the Council of Nicaea were pacifist.) There were all kinds of
> problems with Christians not obeying various Roman laws which is why so
> many of the epistles stress obedience to the established order. That
> whole "women should obey their husbands" thing that Christian women get
> slammed down their throats is being taken out of context-- it's from a
> larger sermon wherein the importance of obeying societal laws is being
> stressed, in which slaves are also told to obey their masters. Many early
> Christians were antinomian, or "anti-law", believing that the Old
> Testament Law was not the only law they didn't have to follow on account
> of Jesus' sacrifice.
>
>
> Also, the Jews were mostly born into their religion, whereas Christianity
> was spread by conversion. Hmmm... you are a large Empire, and you have a
> religion sweeping thru your society by conversion that is causing people
> to disobey their superiors and the law generally, how do you handle it?
> Unless you're Constantine, and can see the wisdom of taking it over and
> trying to control it, you probably try to suppress it...
Especially when they also preach that their god is the only god, and
your empire covers a very large area with many diverse cultures that
have different religions. However much I dislike the later empires
suppression of pagans, in the long run conversion of the (Roman)empire
to Christianity was probably the only way to preserve it.
- --
Rupert Boleyn
Wellington, New Zealand
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 01:18:58 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin"
Subject: Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery (longish)
> From: "Chris Seamans"
> Subject: Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery (longish)
> After World War I, everybody was really horrified by how chemical weapons
> had escalated out of hand. In World War II, interestingly enough, I can't
> think of the use of chemical weapons on a large scale in World War II
> (actually, I can't think of their use on a small scale either, but I'm
> hedging my bets here since there are quite a few people on the list with an
> astonishing mind for detail) with the exception of the death camps, but the
> dynamic was quite different from the battlefield.
The Japanese made extensive use of chemical and bacteriological warfare
in China. They had a large installation in the middle of the country
dedicated entirely to experimenting on Chinese prisoners (and some
Allied P.O.W.s) with new germs and chemicals. Then they used these
germs and chemicals on troops and civilians. One example I remember
involved putting mosquitos that carried some disease (probably malaria)
into big clay jars and dropping out of airplanes into Chinese villages.
The scientists were never prosecuted as war criminals. The bargain was,
they provided their research results to the United States and the United
Nations would not prosecute. If I recall correctly, some of them came to
work for the United States military, much as the more famous German
rocket scientists did.
It's very well documented. Last year I saw a quite horrifying
exhibition about it at the old navy base on Treasure Island in San
Francisco Bay. If the exhibition comes to your town, go see it.
- --Glenn
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1385
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