
Traveller-digest       Wednesday, June 2 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 700



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

[TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Non-standard PSI talents
RE: Far Trader Trade Routes site
Uses for Fighters 
Re: Non-standard PSI talents
RE: Far Trader Trade Routes site
Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes site
RE: Far Trader Trade Routes site
Re: Neat little resource
RE: Far Trader Trade Routes site
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
Re: Neat little resource
Re: Neat little resource
Re: Neat little resource
Re: Neat little resource
Re: Neat little resource
Re: Far Trader Trade Routes site
[TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff
Herman's Hermits and the Vilani
Obtrav: Neat little resource
Re: Obtrav: Neat little resource
Currency
Star Wars Name Gen
Re: First In Software?
RE: Computer tech in 3I

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 13:10:47 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

Wed, 2 Jun 1999 12:06:42 +0200 (MET DST), Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>>  But in space simply recessing the engine enough to cover its flare (or
>>whatever it's called) to keep it from being viewed from anywhere but
>>directly to the rear. Although this would depend on if the engine had any
>>particle emissions of some kind of its own.

>The problem is not to camuflage the exhaust, but the heat of the exhaust. In
>space there is no way of getting rid of heat except to radiate it. A reaction
>drive is going to produce heat and that heat has to go somewhere. When the
>heat
>is radiated out, to keep the missile from melting it will stand out as a sore
>thumb on every sensor in the vicinity.

I think the point is that you radiate it only in one direction.  As
long as you know one direction where the enemy isn't, you are OK.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 16:21:28 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Non-standard PSI talents

Kurt Feltenberger writes:
"I always tended to run the Psi skills similar to the way 
they were presented in May's Pliocene Epoch and Galactic 
Mileu series.  Add D-Jump for teleport and you have a 
fairly hefty stable of powers."

	Mayday! Mayday! This is the freethinker Peez. My
	brain is under attack, frontal lobe #1 not 
	responding. Mayday... I am ignorant of the following 
	terms:
		"May's Pliocene Epoch"
		"Galactic Mileu series"
		"D-Jump"
	Please respond.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:21:30 -0500 
From: "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
Subject: RE: Far Trader Trade Routes site

>All comments welcome and I hope they will prove useful to 
>someone.

I think they will.  If it isn't much trouble, I'd like to see a version that
isn't broken up into individual images.  I have access to a 30"
continuous-roll plotter that would work great for this. 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 13:42:23 -0700
From: James Brewer <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Uses for Fighters 

>Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 00:52:21 -0500
>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Uses for Fighters (longish)

>Having followed the recent "Fighter Stuff" thread, I decided to point
>out some uses for fighters that don't contradict all the arguments
>against their use in attacking capital assets:

<snip>

>Bottom line:  Can fighters expect to engage enemy warships and win? 
>Probably not.  Are fighters useful in support roles?  I think so.

In my TU I use fighters for scouting a great deal.  For combat I use a
modification of Battle Rider to allow the players to actually fight out the
situations.  Using a fighter screen moving ahead of your task force on
active to light up the enemy and transfer their location to the Task Force
allows it to carry out an undetected passive attack.  While, once the
missiles get within detection range or the beam weapons hit they will be
able to figure out where you are, you may be able to do substantial damage
in that first attack. 

Jim Brewer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 16:40:14 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Non-standard PSI talents

At 04:21 PM 6/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Kurt Feltenberger writes:
>"I always tended to run the Psi skills similar to the way 
>they were presented in May's Pliocene Epoch and Galactic 
>Mileu series.  Add D-Jump for teleport and you have a 
>fairly hefty stable of powers."
>
>	Mayday! Mayday! This is the freethinker Peez. My
>	brain is under attack, frontal lobe #1 not 
>	responding. Mayday... I am ignorant of the following 
>	terms:
>		"May's Pliocene Epoch"
>		"Galactic Mileu series"
>		"D-Jump"
>	Please respond.

Julian May wrote "The Many Colored Land" in the mid 80's, and followed it
with "The Golden Torc", "The NonBorn King", and then "The Adversary".
Later, she wrote two books about man's first encounter with aliens and the
families that were pivotal to the meeting.  She wrapped the series up with
"Jack The Bodiless," "Diamond Mask," and "Magnificat" (?).

The stories start in the near future, late 2000's or early 2100's.  A time
gate is developed that goes back in time, but it only goes back a precise
amount, so if you go back today, and I go back tomorrow, you will have been
there for a day.  It goes back 6,000,000 years.

We thought there was no one on earth at that time...we were wrong.

Anyway, to make a long story short, the books deal with psionic powers as
if they were an everyday occurance, which they were.

D-Jump refers to the term Dimensional Jump.  The aliens had a Ship, and the
Ship was alive and traveled using a natural psi ability.  Marc Remillard,
possibly the most power operant in human history, created a 'program' that
would allow him to do this.

He and his associates, less than two or three dozen, all but shattered
planets with their powers, then the warships cleaned up the remains.

I highly suggest the entire series, reading them in the order listed above.
 The first four deal with the group that goes back in time, and really sets
the stage for the series.  The next two books are good background for the
last three which detail the Meta Rebellion.

It is sci-fi, but the science fiction is only there to get the characters
into the situation, it could actually be a retelling of a lot of Celtic
mythology.

Enjoy!

Oh, there is another book, very rare, that is helpful.  It is "A Pliocene
Companion", and is a cyclopedia on words, people, places, and pronunciation
for the series.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:47:05 -0500 
From: "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
Subject: RE: Far Trader Trade Routes site

>All comments welcome and I hope they will prove useful to 
>someone.

I'm a moron and apparently can't read.  The "one gif" map is already there.
Thanks!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:09:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: GT:Far Trader Trade Routes site

- --- Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:

> One suggestion: make the map on the main page thumbnails of each file
> linking to the bigger versions, it'll make the thing a lot easier to
> navigate.

The thumbnails were so hard to see anything off of that I just made a
table of names instead. How does that look?
 
Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:11:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Far Trader Trade Routes site

- --- "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com> wrote:

> >All comments welcome and I hope they will prove useful to 
> >someone.
> 
> I think they will.  If it isn't much trouble, I'd like to see a
> version that
> isn't broken up into individual images.  I have access to a 30"
> continuous-roll plotter that would work great for this. 

There is a link there to go to a complete image. I will see if I can
make it more prominant.

Terry Mixon
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:13:12 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Neat little resource

In a message dated 6/2/99 7:46:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dberry@hooked.net 
writes:

<< I came out as Berdo Dosan. >>
Schro Kebro here....Free Trader

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:18:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Far Trader Trade Routes site

- --- "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com> wrote:

> >All comments welcome and I hope they will prove useful to 
> >someone.
> 
> I'm a moron and apparently can't read.  The "one gif" map is already
> there.

Nah. I made it more clear by putting the link under the table.
Tell me if that is better.

> Thanks!

You are very welcome.

Terry Mixon
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 14:26:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

- --- Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
 
> The stock market bits of Far Trader are mine.  Early on, I was having
> difficulty understanding how they would be useful things on an
> interstellar
> scale.  (I've since been enlightened on the subject, but it was a
> conceptual
> hurdle for me; my risk-averse legal training said investment money
> would
> elsewhere).  I mentioned this in a conversation with my step-father,
> who knows important people.  Unknown to me, he was going to have
> a meeting and dinner with Alice Rivlin, Vice Chair of the U.S.
> Federal
> Reserve Board.  My step-father brings up the subject and they had a
> real discussion about stock markets in the Traveller context.  Turns
> out
> Ms. Rivlin had already done some thinking about this, and thought
> that,
> while there would be siginificant difficulties, they could most
> probably
> be overcome.

She did? The Federal Reserve was already looking into investing 
in some interstellar holdings inside the Imperium? That IS 
farsighted. Scary, but farsighted. <g>
 
Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 15:09:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Neat little resource

Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> writes:

> Ok, what I had to do is copy all the files to a directory with the file
> "template.".  Then use the command switch :
> namegen -n 10 template
> 
> This generated 10 names.

Did you get this from the Missouri archive?

If so, did you notice that it was stored as a .tar file? (hint #1)

If so, when you extracted all the files (you *did* extract *all*
the files didn't you?), did you notice that they included a
Makefile and a Man page? (hint #2)

If so, you *did* read the Man page, didn't you?

You *did* first attempt to build the app. using "make" before going
to Visual Studio, didn't you?

You *did* follow the Man page instructions when attempting to run
the app., didn't you?

What am I missing? :^/

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:21:38 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Neat little resource

Mark Cook wrote:
>  
> You *did* first attempt to build the app. using "make" before going
> to Visual Studio, didn't you?

make on a Dec Alpha running digital Unix 4.04 yields :

Make: Makefile: Must be a separator on line 4.  Stop.

but 'cc namegen.c -o namegen' works perfectly fine for me ;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 18:29:23 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Neat little resource

Mark Cook wrote:
> 
> Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> writes:
> 
> > Ok, what I had to do is copy all the files to a directory with the file
> > "template.".  Then use the command switch :
> > namegen -n 10 template
> >
> > This generated 10 names.
> 
> Did you get this from the Missouri archive?
> 
> If so, did you notice that it was stored as a .tar file? (hint #1)
> 
> If so, when you extracted all the files (you *did* extract *all*
> the files didn't you?), did you notice that they included a
> Makefile and a Man page? (hint #2)
> 
> If so, you *did* read the Man page, didn't you?
> 
> You *did* first attempt to build the app. using "make" before going
> to Visual Studio, didn't you?
> 
> You *did* follow the Man page instructions when attempting to run
> the app., didn't you?
> 
> What am I missing? :^/
> 

I did none of the above.  I haven't a clue about this sort of stuff, ALL
my programming experience is in ancient BASIC.  I assumed the files that
unzipped with namgen.c were just obscure (to me) required files for
compiling and running.  That's why I didn't click on the rest of them. 
As you can see, I did manage to figure it out.  :)
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 18:31:43 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Neat little resource

Actually, your manual (now that I have read it, thank you very much :)
), is not entirely correct.  It states that you need 3 command
parameters (not optional) in order to run it.  Actually, you need two. 
Max syllables may be left out.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 15:41:39 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Neat little resource

In the time honored tradition of man pages, that's absolutely correct.

Man pages can best be defined as:

'memnonic devices for the programmer to refer to three weeks after he
wrote the program but before he made those last-minute improvements' ;-)

They may or may not be of utility to anyone else.

Not much experience with Unix, have we...:-P

In all seriousness, Mark...cool program!

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 17:42:37 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Far Trader Trade Routes site

I saw that you had the SJG copyright information on your page.  Do you
also need the Far Futures copyright information, or does the wording
"...or used under license" cover that?  Just curious....


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:53:15 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, David P. Summers wrote:

>>The problem is not to camuflage the exhaust, but the heat of the exhaust. In
>>space there is no way of getting rid of heat except to radiate it. A reaction
>>drive is going to produce heat and that heat has to go somewhere. When the
>>heat
>>is radiated out, to keep the missile from melting it will stand out as a sore
>>thumb on every sensor in the vicinity.
>
>I think the point is that you radiate it only in one direction.  As
>long as you know one direction where the enemy isn't, you are OK.

I don't think that is possible with a missile. The exhaust is going to be hot or 
alternativly the missile is going to be hot. If the exhaust is hot, everybody in
the vicinity is going to pick it up. No chance of radiating its heat in only one
direction. If the missile is hot it becomes a matter of surface area devoted to
radiators. I don't know if there is enough area to radiate all heat away from
the target? But that should be easy to check using the FF&S2 rules. But as far
as I know there is no rockets that spew out cold exhaust so I consider the hot
exhaust to be the main problem, and this problem is unsolvable 

>summers@alum.mit.edu

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 17:58:39 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Herman's Hermits and the Vilani

<tongue-in-cheek>

At some point during the early days of Vilani/Terran contact, some
Vilani _must_ have heard the Herman's Hermits song, "I'm Henry the VIII
I Am."  As I see it, the Vilani would be wondering:

1.  How did these Terrans know about Great-Uncle Eneri and Great-Aunt
Iikush?

2.  How was it that these Terrans could pronounce Great-Uncle Eneri's
name correctly, but couldn't spell it correctly.

</tongue-in-cheek>

(Sorry if this has been Done to Death, but it hasn't popped up during ny
year on the TML.)

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 19:11:16 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Obtrav: Neat little resource

At 06:29 PM 6/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>Mark Cook wrote:
>> 
>> Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> writes:
>> 
>> > Ok, what I had to do is copy all the files to a directory with the file
>> > "template.".  Then use the command switch :
>> > namegen -n 10 template
>> >
>> > This generated 10 names.
>> 
>> Did you get this from the Missouri archive?
>> 
>> If so, did you notice that it was stored as a .tar file? (hint #1)
>> 
>> If so, when you extracted all the files (you *did* extract *all*
>> the files didn't you?), did you notice that they included a
>> Makefile and a Man page? (hint #2)
>> 
>> If so, you *did* read the Man page, didn't you?
>> 
>> You *did* first attempt to build the app. using "make" before going
>> to Visual Studio, didn't you?
>> 
>> You *did* follow the Man page instructions when attempting to run
>> the app., didn't you?
>> 
>> What am I missing? :^/
>> 
>
>I did none of the above.  I haven't a clue about this sort of stuff, ALL
>my programming experience is in ancient BASIC.  I assumed the files that
>unzipped with namgen.c were just obscure (to me) required files for
>compiling and running.  That's why I didn't click on the rest of them. 
>As you can see, I did manage to figure it out.  :)

The ObTrav for this: J-man is using his Tech level 8 Computer-1 skill.
The rest of us have progressed to Tech-9 (at least as far as LBB 6 is
concerned). Every attempt to use a program downloaded from the
internet requires a roll vs IQ to get it working in a reasonable amount
of time (say 10 minutes) w/o help. He happens to roll quite well on his
look for help roll (being familiar with the terrain (streetwise on the
internet?)), gets some extra help, rolls vs IQ again, and in 30 minutes,
has a working program. 

If he had been realigning his Target program, after picking it up on a
world one tech level higher than where he learned computer-1, and lost
3 turns in a battle with a hypothetical pirate...


- -- 
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head / no time for mourning
ain't got no time  -- Creed
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 19:30:34 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Obtrav: Neat little resource

> The ObTrav for this: J-man is using his Tech level 8 Computer-1 skill.
> The rest of us have progressed to Tech-9 (at least as far as LBB 6 is
> concerned). Every attempt to use a program downloaded from the
> internet requires a roll vs IQ to get it working in a reasonable amount
> of time (say 10 minutes) w/o help. He happens to roll quite well on his
> look for help roll (being familiar with the terrain (streetwise on the
> internet?)), gets some extra help, rolls vs IQ again, and in 30 minutes,
> has a working program. 
> 
> If he had been realigning his Target program, after picking it up on a
> world one tech level higher than where he learned computer-1, and lost
> 3 turns in a battle with a hypothetical pirate...
> 
> 
> -- 

Actually you are giving me more credit than I am due.  :)  Mainly my
problems stemmed from unfamiliarity with the subject matter.  Plus the
fact I never read manuals.

As for targeting programs, I wouldn't have left dry-dock until I was
familiar with the software in question, its being so life-n-death
important.
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:52:13 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Currency

- -----Original Message-----
From: Cravens, Carl <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com' <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, 3 June 1999 12:05
Subject: RE: Computer tech in 3I


>>up to you.  I tend to assume that personal documents, like money, are kept
>>on some kind of data crystal, which you can where around your wrist or
>>neck, or have imbedded in your head, or hang off some kind of
>>body-piercing, or.....  Just wave it past a 'reader' and the data is
>>available.  A 'reader' is essentially just any old computer.
>
>That's part of my point... I'm not convinced that you can be sure "any old
>computer" is going to be compatible.
>
>When it comes to "money on a chip" you have the problem of personal
>exchange... I can't loan you five Cr unless we have a computer capable of
>handling the transaction, which isn't exactly convenient.  I don't see
paper
>money fading out.  (And neither did the authors of Traveller.)  Paper money
>is too convenient, especially if you want to make "private" transactions
>that don't get recorded on somebody's computer.
>

Paper money or polymers?  Folding money I suppose, similar to Australia's
"plastic money" (polymer bank notes), a different process to the "shaved
block" the Imperium uses.  Anyway, I imagine the Credit "note" is "barcoded"
(or equivalent) so the cash can be traced from withdrawal point to the next
deposit point?  I understand they use a similar system (bar coded paper
money) in the current Belgium or someplace there abouts (I saw it years ago
on a "Big Brother is Watching" type doco... just not sure of which European
country it is/was).

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:50:52 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Star Wars Name Gen

Doug posted the URL for the name generator - I think it works as follows -

<First 3 of Surname>+<first 2 of name>  <first 2 of maiden name
(mother)>+<first 2 of place of birth>

Cheers,

Moodo Hinan

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 20:00:28 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: First In Software?

>Greetings, All,
>
>I just got my copy of GT: First In this weekend, and so far, it looks
>fantastic!  Great job!  I especially like the new Star System
>Detailing method, and can see how it might easily be translated into
>a non-GURPS (aka traditional) Traveller format.  Is anyone working on
>a software application to automate this process?  If so, will it be
>available for IBM PCs?  Thanks for your time.  I now return you to
>your regularly scheduled thread, already in progress.

I'm modifying Metator to handle the GURPS variant. So yes, it will be
available.

As to being available on a PC...  Well, if someone donates me a PC, I'll
code it, but I'm not investing my own money in one.  An iMac, maybe, but
not anytime soon, especially if the neo-cons get back in power.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 20:00:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: Computer tech in 3I

>>This is definitely contradicted by canon. Throughout the Traveller
>>Literature there are references to the 'Standard Imperial Data Package';
>>plans on building everything from spanners to starships. Sort of a
>>real-life FF&S ;-)
>
>Which would result in very slow technological development.  This wouldn't be
>too bad if all innovation were done at the distribution point of the Data
>Package, but it can't be.  It may take months for my new designs to reach
>the Data Package coordination point, months for committees to approve the
>inclusion of my design into the Data Package, and then months more to
>distribute that Data Package to the rest of the Imperium.  In the meantime,
>I've designed, built and am attempting to sell ships using my new designs...
>but either nobody's buying because they're (rightly) afraid of not being
>able to get parts, or they're later breaking down and unable to get parts
>when on the other side of the Imperium.
>
>Canon or not, I find it very, very hard to believe that the Imperium can
>maintain any kind of standardization without slowing innovation to a near
>stand-still.  The Imperium is based on creating a stable economy, and
>business in the technical world means getting your designs to market as
>quickly as possible.

But the pace of technical development in the Imperium _is_ a lot slower
than the pace of development right now. Business means making money. If
customers won't buy because they don't trust your system, then you lose
money.

Remember that the Vilani plan for the long haul, and have no problems with
looking farther ahead than next quarter's profits.

Remember that the stock markets aren't instantaneous either, so that the
swift large-scale flows of capital we see today won't work in the Imperium.
Look at the financial system back before the telegraph to get a better idea
of the pace you could expect...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #700
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 3 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 701



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Computer tech in 3I
Fighter Weapons Mounting and Crewing
Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Star Wars Name Gen
Oops: a little fib...
Re: Non-standard PSI talents
Re: Non-standard PSI talents
Re: Far Trader Trade Routes site
re: Fighter Stuff
Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors
Help!
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Oops: a little fib... 
Re: Fighter stuff 
Re: I like missiles!
Re: Non-standard PSI talents
Re: Herman's Hermits and the Vilani
Re: Fighters and missiles
Re: Help!
Re: Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors
Re: Oops: a little fib...
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues
Re: Missiles
Re: Neat little resource
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues 
Re: Oops: a little fib... 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 20:00:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: Computer tech in 3I

>>And second, once technologies *mature*, you don't *get* new designs all
>>that often. Look at the auto industry. The differences from one model
>>to another are *not* technological, they are mostly artistic. The
>>remaining differences tend to be a matter of which of the several
>>mutually exclusive "properties" of a car were picked as most important.
>>Size, mileage, capacity, cost, etc.
>
>Oh?  Fuel-injection.  Lighter aluminum blocks.  Computer-control, monitoring
>and diagnostics of the engine and transmission.  Better handling of
>emissions.  More efficient stream-lining.  Air bags.  Side air-bags.
>Anti-lock brakes.  The uni-body design.  Body designs created to direct
>impact energy away from occupants.  Tire tread with better handling
>capabilities.  Suspensions with better handling capabilities.  Paint that
>doesn't fade as readily.  Rigid plastic body panels.
>
>And garages have had to improve with them... mostly in the area of computer
>diagnostics and training.  (But training is just as important as anything
>else in our information-dissemination problem... even if they've got the
>parts and the tools, if they don't know how to work on it, you're outta
>luck. :)
>
>The automobile is a mature technology, but look at how much it's advanced in
>the last thirty years.

You're talking incremental improvements, in a system with an existing
distribution network and instantaneous communications.

Imagine trying to get the same changes through if communications between
Detroit and the dealerships took months. Look at how long it took propane
to get accepted, for example. Look at how long it took Japanese cars to
catch on in North America. Remember when owning a German car meant having a
German mechanic?

When my grandfather was a boy, he drove a horse & buggy. I don't think he
really noticed the diferences between my cars, other than the colours --
the car itself was a different enough technology. The same with my
computers: the computer itself was the big change, everything else was
incremental.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 17:29:14 -0700
From: James Brewer <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Fighter Weapons Mounting and Crewing

>Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 01:55:37 -0500
>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Fighter Weapons Mounting and Crewing

>In your individual and/or collective opinion(s), does a fixed-mount
>weapon on a fighter require its own gunner and gunnery station, or is
>the pilot the gunner of a fixed-mount weapon?  The answer to this
>question will influence the design of the F5A-series heavy fighter,
>currently in development by AuricTech Shipyards.

Traveller Cannon in the past has held that Fighters such as the Rampart and
Solamani and Aslan designs don't require a separate gunner but suffer die
mods as the pilot has to aline the entire fighter with the target. I would
agree with this.

Jim Brewer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 17:57:28 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:53:15 +0200 (MET DST)
>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>

>>I think the point is that you radiate it only in one direction.  As
>>long as you know one direction where the enemy isn't, you are OK.

>I don't think that is possible with a missile. The exhaust is going to be
>hot or
>alternativly the missile is going to be hot.

It isn't clear at all the a missile with reationless thrusters is
going to have exhuast.  It also isn't clear if the exhaust can't
be cooled and the heat radiate seeratately.  It might be an issue
to explore, but I don't see it as a basis for a firm statement about
missile detectability.

>If the missile is hot it becomes a matter of surface area devoted to
>radiators. I don't know if there is enough area to radiate all heat away from
>the target?

The amount radiated depends on surface area and also on temperature.
This also assumes passive blackbody radiation, one has to speculate
how one might be able to more actively radiate waste heat at
higher TL's.

> But that should be easy to check using the FF&S2 rules. But as far
>as I know there is no rockets that spew out cold exhaust so I consider the hot
>exhaust to be the main problem, and this problem is unsolvable

In GT at higher TL, reactionless thruster don't have exhaust.
This is also true in many versions of CT/MT.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:07:11 -0400
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

At 02:58 PM 5/30/1999 +0100, SD Mooney wrote:
>Well, if you look at B5 several of the episodes were drive by people
>wanting to make a profit, especially those involving Alien artifacts.
>Smuggling also came into it. The main characters were pretty 
>much untouched (being employed by the Station) however examples 
>of financial issues include:

[snip]

And just to underscore the Traveller likeness, 
I'll note that B5 reminded me most of my own
version of Aramanx Highport that I used in my
games spun off of The Traveller Adventure.
Just replace Epsilon 3 with a balkanized
tech-6 world, corporate trade reps in place
of the ambassadors, Vargr corsairs instead of
Raiders.... and almost ten years before B5.

JB

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:07:11 -0400
From: John H Bogan Jr <jbogan@pipeline.com>
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

At 02:58 PM 5/30/1999 +0100, SD Mooney wrote:
>Well, if you look at B5 several of the episodes were drive by people
>wanting to make a profit, especially those involving Alien artifacts.
>Smuggling also came into it. The main characters were pretty 
>much untouched (being employed by the Station) however examples 
>of financial issues include:

[snip]

And just to underscore the Traveller likeness, 
I'll note that B5 reminded me most of my own
version of Aramanx Highport that I used in my
games spun off of The Traveller Adventure.
Just replace Epsilon 3 with a balkanized
tech-6 world, corporate trade reps in place
of the ambassadors, Vargr corsairs instead of
Raiders.... and almost ten years before B5.

JB

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:19:45 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Star Wars Name Gen

- ----------
> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Star Wars Name Gen
> Date: Wednesday, 02 June, 1999 7:50 PM
> 
> Doug posted the URL for the name generator - I think it works as follows
- -
> 
> <First 3 of Surname>+<first 2 of name>  <first 2 of maiden name
> (mother)>+<first 2 of place of birth>
> 

I hate to be so paranoid, but Mother's maiden name and place of birth are
common authenticators for on line-accounts. (Forget a password, and many
systems will ask for one or both as ID.)  Any chance this is a clever
method for gathering such info?

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:22:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Oops: a little fib...

Back during all the light sabre chatter, I stated that in my
modified "SnapShot" rules, I had worked up a light sabre and it
was on my chart.

Well, I broke out my chart today and no light sabre.  I do have
Blasters which may be of some use, but . . . no light sabre...

My apologies.  I'm still planning on working up the chart and
throwing it up on a web site.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:24:25 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Non-standard PSI talents

Had a NPC I used called Ulysses Percival Smyth.   If you think about it you
can figure out what his non-standard talent was.  Small packages delivered
at a distance.  He had to have had knowledge of the delivery location.  Ran
it like teleportation except the mass "sent" was an order of magnitude
smaller.

There was a set of 50's or 60's era stories about a fellow named Gill who
was a pecuilar form of telekink.  It manifested itself as a phantom third
arm.  He could do anything with it a real arm could do and a bit more.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:46:33 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Non-standard PSI talents

Ian Ferguson wrote:
> 
> I haven't been following the psionic thread, so please forgive
> me if this has been covered. IIRC, it is implied in CT that there
> are PSI talents other than those listed (ie., telekinesis,
> telepathy, self awareness, teleportation, clairvoyance). I have
> added rules for pyrokinesis (inducing heat), domination
> (influencing another sophont's mind), and healing (figure it out).
> Are there any other talents out there?
> 
> Peez

Read some sci-fi books for new ideas.  You can also glean some ideas
from a list of talents I wrote up for my website.

Goto : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/mutat.html
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 18:42:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Far Trader Trade Routes site

- --- Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:

> I saw that you had the SJG copyright information on your page.  Do
> you
> also need the Far Futures copyright information, or does the wording
> "...or used under license" cover that?  Just curious....

I believe the part about under license covers it. At least, that was
what they told me to put.

Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:34:02 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fighter Stuff

Phil Kitching wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The last time this debate came up, I seem to recall that the end result
was a 100MCr kinetic kill missile that released enough superdense pellets
at 10,000km so that a Tigress at 6G could not evade all of them but would
be severely damaged by a single pellet.

If you every wondered what could be launched by a factor 9 missile bay...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And I've been looking for a reason why admirals would split up battlegroups
in a fight instead of putting them in one honking big formation. This 
might be it. Thanks Phil.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:52:36 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors

	Enlighten me if you will, but what would be the effect on laser fire 
if a missile had a highly reflectived or mirrored surface.   While it would 
be impractical to mirror the surface of a starship, a one-time use, deep 
space missile could easily have a mirrorer outer shell.     If the mirrored 
surface could deflect a significant amount of laser energy, then the missile 
might be more survivable.   And yes, I realize that TL 13+ x-ray lasers would 
not be affected.


		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 22:00:27 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Help!

I'm looking for the yeild of a nuclear missile from MegaTraveller.  This
would be the standard Imperial ship killer as fired by a TL-15 SDB.

Any suggestions?

I was thinking on the order of 100 - 500kt.

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:06:01 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

In a message dated 99-06-02 03:37:44 EDT, you write:

<< Has anyone noticed that if you totally destroy a missile at close range the
 debris may still strike the ship, it would not matter if the missile was
 vaporised or not, it just would keep coming on its last vector. If it
 strikes, admittedly a small but possible chance it will pack considerable
 kinetic energy 0.5m*v^2 even if the hull was not penetrated it could still
 destroy antenna etc. Thus degrading capability. >>

Good point, I think we have not thought of it before becouse in our world a 
missile that is killed will fall short of the ship, in space it might hit.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 22:07:02 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Oops: a little fib... 

> Back during all the light sabre chatter, I stated that in my
> modified "SnapShot" rules, I had worked up a light sabre and it
> was on my chart.
> 
> Well, I broke out my chart today and no light sabre.  I do have
> Blasters which may be of some use, but . . . no light sabre...

I worked up Hammer's Slammers-style powerguns once, as well as spetsdods, 
plasma blades, and gyrojet pistols.  Gonna have to see if I can dig them all 
up again, or rebuild them...
 
Keven
- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:09:38 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff 

In a message dated 99-06-02 03:48:02 EDT, you write:

<< The decoys were to fly in front of the main flock of missiles incoming at 
a 
 target.  No ships back there.  They're *WAY* back out of harm's way. >>

I guess I missed that point, in that case you could put the money that would 
be spent on decoys could be spent on the "cloaked" missiles.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:11:34 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: I like missiles!

In a message dated 99-06-02 03:54:59 EDT, you write:

<< >laser, the Self Forging Fragment?  Basically just a variant on the HEAT
 >warhead, you use an explosive charge as a "gun" to fire a slug of metal at
 >*VERY* high accelerations.  Much easier than a contact hit, but not as
 >deadly as det-lasers.
 
   An SFF is a rather low velocity weapon for space combat purposes. >>

But I'll kick the stuffing out of a station or planet.... (Maybe that is what 
a BM: 8 squad uses?)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:19:02 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Non-standard PSI talents

- ----------
> From: Daniel Phelps <phelpsd@gate.net>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Non-standard PSI talents
> Date: Wednesday, 02 June, 1999 9:24 PM
> 
> Had a NPC I used called Ulysses Percival Smyth.   If you think about it
you
> can figure out what his non-standard talent was.  Small packages
delivered
> at a distance.  He had to have had knowledge of the delivery location. 
Ran
> it like teleportation except the mass "sent" was an order of magnitude
> smaller.
> 
> There was a set of 50's or 60's era stories about a fellow named Gill who
> was a pecuilar form of telekink.  It manifested itself as a phantom third
> arm.  He could do anything with it a real arm could do and a bit more.

Gil Hamilton.  They're by Larry Niven, a good deal later than the 50s (The
first was 1969, the others all in the 70s).  Gil is a member of the
Amalgamated Regional Militia, the UN police force, so the story collection
was inevitably _The Long ARM of Gil Hamilton_

Gil had lost his arm in an accident. The psychic arm developed to
compensate. (He had since received a transplanted replacement arm, but
managed to keep the imaginary one too.) The imaginary arm was much weaker
than a real one.  He could smoke with it, for example, but he holds the cig
in his imaginary "fist", not just two fingers.  

Highly recommended.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 20:25:17 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Herman's Hermits and the Vilani

>At some point during the early days of Vilani/Terran contact, some
>Vilani _must_ have heard the Herman's Hermits song, "I'm Henry the VIII
>I Am."  As I see it, the Vilani would be wondering:
>
>1.  How did these Terrans know about Great-Uncle Eneri and Great-Aunt
>Iikush?
>
>2.  How was it that these Terrans could pronounce Great-Uncle Eneri's
>name correctly, but couldn't spell it correctly.

Obviously there was some prior contact. I would assume that the Hivers
have also paid us a visit at some point, since the moves in "The Macarena"
translate into Hiver as a rather ribald (by Hiver standards) joke. (Though
what the Hivers would consider "ribald" is probably not comprehensible
to Terrans in the first place...)


     Glenn St-Germain § Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com § http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:27:48 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Fighters and missiles

>  Oh. But when do PDL's become available? Is that something introduced in
>MT or T4? I know that I have allowed my players the opportunity to fire
>there lasers at Missiles in lew of firing at the other ship, but as I see
>it. Firing at a small object that is using active Evasion maneuvers would
>be extremely hard to hit.

It's not so much a rule thing as a concept/reality thing (Trav is,
after all, supposed to be trying to model some reasonable extrapolation
of reality.) It turns out that even modern optical tracking technology can
easily target and follow a small thing through tens of G's of evasion at
thousands of km; evasion doesn't really make you harder to hit with a
laser until the range gets long compared to the speed of light. Since lasers
are light, anything your optical tracking system can follow your laser
can hit.

Bruce (shouldn't this be in a FAQ) Macintosh

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 21:39:46 -0500
From: meow@advancenet.net
Subject: Re: Help!

they were listed somewhere as being 150kt

Shadowcat AKA Kevin Walsh
Captain of the Free Trader Beowulf
ADD/ADHD Advocate
http://www.advancenet.net/~meow

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:35:16 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors

AveNelso@aol.com wrote:
> 
>         Enlighten me if you will, but what would be the effect on laser fire
> if a missile had a highly reflectived or mirrored surface.   While it would
> be impractical to mirror the surface of a starship, a one-time use, deep
> space missile could easily have a mirrorer outer shell.     If the mirrored
> surface could deflect a significant amount of laser energy, then the missile
> might be more survivable.   And yes, I realize that TL 13+ x-ray lasers would
> not be affected.
> 

Well, during the SDI debate in the 1980s, the Union of Concerned
Scientists suggested that the Soviets might put a shine on their ICBMs,
thus making them resistant to SDI laser weapons.  However, as Dr. Robert
Jastrow pointed out, "no shine is perfect; some laser energy is bound to
get through, and will heat the surface.  The heating tends to dull the
shine, so more heat gets through, and dulls the shine more...."  [from
his essay "The War Against 'Star Wars'", 1984, republished in Jerry
Pournelle's anthology _Warrior:  There Will Be War Volume V_]

I haven't seen the specs for the lasers proposed in the original SDI,
but I would imagine that, at TL-8, they would be less effective than PD
lasers in Traveller.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:36:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Re: Oops: a little fib...

> Back during all the light sabre chatter, I stated that in my
> modified "SnapShot" rules, I had worked up a light sabre and it
> was on my chart.
> 
> Well, I broke out my chart today and no light sabre.  I do have
> Blasters which may be of some use, but . . . no light sabre...
> 
> My apologies.  I'm still planning on working up the chart and
> throwing it up on a web site.
> 

The URL is:  http://www.mpgn.com/~rwm/traveller-snapshot.txt

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 20:47:45 -0500
From: Mark A Nordstrand <markn@visi.com>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

> SuSe 6.1 comes with *5* install CDs.  And you gotta *change* them.  A *LOT*.  
Yikes!  That's a pain.  I've always liked spending about 15 minutes w/
Red
Hat, go do something else for awhile, and coming back and finding it
done.  
Beats the last Win(something-or-other) reinstall I did having to click
on 
the OK button at random intervals.

> Minimal install of a SuSe is about 900 megs; a bit on the hefty side, 
> IMNSFBHO.  And the directory setup is a touch weird for me; I've *NEVER* seen 
> an /opt directory til I got SuSe.  

Actually, Red Hat is the anomaly on that issue.  The way the init
scripts
are layed out really strikes me as strange.  If I'm not mistaken, /opt
is a 
BSDism.  I'm used to it since the only other computers I spend any time 
maintaining run Solaris.  

ObTrav. (and blatent plug):  My web page:

http://www.visi.com/~markn/index.html

should be updated sometime this weekend with a newer version of the
linux/X
Traveller tools I've been working on and (hopefully) screen shots of
said 
programs.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 19:54:25 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Missiles

>A good post, but I'd like to see a more plausible explanation for people
>who don't like detonation laser missiles and want to keep the old canon.

There are two categories of missiles that vaguely reproduce the
characteristics
of old-fashioned missiles. The first are fragmentation missiles. Several
thousand km out from their target - far enough to have some chance of
escaping laser fire - they burst into a cloud of metal fragments/BBs/whatever.
Since it will still take many seconds for them to reach the target, the cloud
has to expand a lot - to a cloud a kilometer or more across - before impating.
So only a few BBs will hit the target -  but each has lots of kinetic energy.
With tweaking, you can get damage levels similar to "classic" conventional
missiles. The math doesn't *quite* work but it's within handwaving distance.

The other alternative are chemical detonation lasers - chemical explosive
versions of the nuclear ones. Wimpy damage but acceptable range.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 20:22:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Neat little resource

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> writes:

> Man pages can best be defined as:
> 
> 'memnonic devices for the programmer to refer to three weeks after he
> wrote the program but before he made those last-minute improvements' ;-)
> 
> They may or may not be of utility to anyone else.

ROTFL!!  Too true! :^)

> Not much experience with Unix, have we...:-P
> 
> In all seriousness, Mark...cool program!

Thanks, Bruce.  I'll be the first to admit, however, that it's a hack
that I never bothered to clean up much.  I was simply following the
programmers "first make it work, then make it pretty" credo and never
actually got to the second part. :^)

        - Mark C.

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 23:48:52 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues 

> > SuSe 6.1 comes with *5* install CDs.  And you gotta *change* them.  A *LOT*.  
> Yikes!  That's a pain.  I've always liked spending about 15 minutes w/
> Red
> Hat, go do something else for awhile, and coming back and finding it
> done.  
> Beats the last Win(something-or-other) reinstall I did having to click
> on 
> the OK button at random intervals.

Got that right.
 
> > Minimal install of a SuSe is about 900 megs; a bit on the hefty side, 
> > IMNSFBHO.  And the directory setup is a touch weird for me; I've *NEVER* seen 
> > an /opt directory til I got SuSe.  
> 
> Actually, Red Hat is the anomaly on that issue.  The way the init
> scripts
> are layed out really strikes me as strange.  If I'm not mistaken, /opt
> is a 
> BSDism.  I'm used to it since the only other computers I spend any time 
> maintaining run Solaris.  

I don't remember /opt as being part of SCO, but it's been a few years since 
I've had to deal with them.  But I *do* know it wasn't part of Slackware or 
SLS Linux.
 
> ObTrav. (and blatent plug):  My web page:
> 
> http://www.visi.com/~markn/index.html
> 
> should be updated sometime this weekend with a newer version of the
> linux/X
> Traveller tools I've been working on and (hopefully) screen shots of
> said 
> programs.

Coolness.  They ever update that wxGTK package yet??

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:09:43 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Oops: a little fib... 

At 10:07 PM 6/2/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> Back during all the light sabre chatter, I stated that in my
>> modified "SnapShot" rules, I had worked up a light sabre and it
>> was on my chart.
>> 
>> Well, I broke out my chart today and no light sabre.  I do have
>> Blasters which may be of some use, but . . . no light sabre...
>
>I worked up Hammer's Slammers-style powerguns once, as well as spetsdods, 
>plasma blades, and gyrojet pistols.  Gonna have to see if I can dig them all 
>up again, or rebuild them...

hehe, <drool>, hehe, we like powerguns!

Find 'em and post 'em!

I always thought powerguns as the new style fusion or plasma guns, except
much smaller and more controllable.

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #701
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 3 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 702



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Computer tech in 3I
Re: I like missiles!
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter stuff
Fw: I like missiles
Far Trader Trade Routes site UPDATED
Cities and planets
Re: Obtrav: Neat little resource
Re: Fw: I like missiles (longish)
Re: Cities and planets
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
Fw: I like missiles (longish)
Neat little resource
Re: Fw: I like missiles (longish)
Re: Non-standard PSI talents
Eneri the Eighth (was Herman's Hermits and the Vilani)
Re: Non-standard PSI talents
Mirrrors
Re: Neat little resource 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 99 23:35:10 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

On 06/01/99 at 12:35 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:

>The IDP is the ultimate Open Source. You have the entire source code
>to everything from software packages to starship designs, with the
>rules on how they interact. A lot of innovatiopn is possible there,
>but due to the nature of the Imperium, it's spread and acceptance are
>going to be glacially slow by our standards....

>This doesn't mean that the Imperium is a stunted, backwards
>place...what it means is that it's big...really, really
>mind-bogglingly big. 

For the OTU, I agree with you Bruce.  It's the nature of the
Imperium.  The leaders of the 3I want a *stable* environment for
interstellar trade, more than most anything else. That produces a
drive for standard "lowest common denominators" in a number of
areas, look at the Imperial Calendar Compliance Commission for
example.  

You might very well have systems like we see in communications
protocols, where an advanced newer technology has several earlier
more standard technologies included.  The local
OS/hardware/protocol/etc might run faster, be smaller, whatever, but
when interfacing with systems that don't match the local standard
the system "falls back" on the slower/larger/less efficient, but
universally compatible IDP tech.  You can innovate, but if you want
wide acceptance your innovations must include the standard "fall
back" standards.

Example:  Ling Standard ship sensors built at the Sylean Shipyards
are controlled by a set of boards running LS-1134/1107 containing
innovations that aren't yet accepted by Ling as Corporate Standards.
The LS-1134/1107 boards also contain everything that allows them to
work like a LS-1134/1087 (the Ling Systems corporate standard that
*all* LS-1134 boards come with) and with everything needed to make
them work like the S1A4\0098 (the IDP standard that all *Imperially*
licensed ship sensor controllers come with).  

If you need to replace an LS-1134 board in the field, you'll try to
get a LS-1134/1107 board replacement, but *any* LS-1134 board will
work...at a lower function.  If you can't get a Ling System board,
any IDP sensor controller that conforms to S1A4\0098 will work, but
at an even lower level of function.  Your Engineer might even be
able to cobble something up from bits and pieces that worked, but it
would be replaced as quickly as you could with a standard board.

How does that model look?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:41:41 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: I like missiles!

>Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:11:34 EDT
>From: SRKOALA@aol.com
>Subject: Re: I like missiles!
...
>   An SFF is a rather low velocity weapon for space combat purposes. >>
>
>But I'll kick the stuffing out of a station or planet.... (Maybe that is what 
>a BM: 8 squad uses?)

  For planets you want big enough lumps that a laser hit won't break them up;
for stations a BB warhead is more efficient. The added velocity of the SFF's
detonation is trivial (2 km/s? - that's around 0.2 G for one space combat 
turn under most Traveller rules).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 21:41:59 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

>From: SRKOALA@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Fighter stuff
...
><< Has anyone noticed that if you totally destroy a missile at close range the
> debris may still strike the ship, it would not matter if the missile was
> vaporised or not, it just would keep coming on its last vector. If it
...
>Good point, I think we have not thought of it before becouse in our world a 
>missile that is killed will fall short of the ship, in space it might hit.

  The TTL archives contain all of the applicable concepts (with calculations)
in excruciating detail. Even the Rednekk Arms communards were finally forced
to accept their suppression...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 02 Jun 1999 22:20:31 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

> From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>

> >more of the time. objects directly "abeam" will get the least coverage.
> 
>   Does abeam mean to the rear? Cause that is where I feel is the weakest
> point for any cap ship. Which probably has a really lousy yaw rate due to
> its mass.

The beam of a ship is a line draw through its middle, from port to
starboard (or vice versa).  So abeam means in the middle of the side.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:37:36 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: I like missiles

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 5:35 AM
Subject: Re: I like missiles


>>
>>    a. Accuracy.  Who says lasers are 100% accurate?  A 1 degree
>>innaccuracy, at 100 km, is a miss- oh my god, I can't remember the @#$%
>>formula.  Could someone please remind me?  Anyway, there are quite a few
>>good arguments to suggest that a laser will be off-target by some amount-
>>vibration, calibration, "inherent accuracy"- even recoil, if a gaseous
media
>>is used.
>>
>
>If this is true, you can *never* hit anything at any sort of range
>whatsoever. You have to have phenomenal accuracy to get combat ranges out
>to the 300 000km plus that Traveller has always assumed.
>
>Anyway, lasers are that accurate today ...

Remember, this a handwave...
I just assume that it's easier to hit a target with a max delta-V of 6G,
that is MUCH larger, in every dimension, and that is arguably more
vulnerable to the laser in the first place.  Also, anti-ship lasers (as
opposed to PDL) are larger and presumably have a lower ROF.  Unless my
assumptions are totally incorrect (not unlikely) a high-pulse PDL will be
chemically pumped and therefor will vibrate like mad.  True, you might not
be able to see it with a naked eye, but at 2,000 km against a 10cm target,
well... A larger weaopn with lower ROF can presumably be dampened more
effectively.
>

>>    b. Computation/aiming  time. It seems to be taken for granted that a
>>defending ship is always using its full active sensor suite to detect and
>>cook incoming missiles, and that its ladar has multiple channels that
switch
>>targets intantaneously.  It also assumes that targetting information has
no
>>processing time, and that the PDL needs no time to track the target.
>>
>
>Assume engagement range is 1000 km, and missiles are going at 10 km/second.
>We have lots of time to resolve them. Note that we have to use *a* active
>sensor suite, not neccessarily ours - a fighter will do nicely to be lit up
>and die form those nasty spinal mounts.

Oh, agreed, "sensor drones" are sadly lacking in the OTU, 2300 shows up some
good tactics with these.  As for 1000 km, I expect that against very small
targets, the "footprint" of the laser will be too large to be deadly, mainly
because of vibration-induced spreading, but also at that range, active
jamming would make a target solution difficult. Now, at 100km, not much of a
problem, unless there are a *LOT* of missiles.
>
>We dont neccessarily need multi-switching LADARs. I dont know about anyone
>else, but my standard Signature barbette has it's own LADAR.

The problem with this is that the LADAR then needs to re-aquire each
individual target.  At this point, the PDL can only engage as fast as it can
aquire.  Since, presumably you will wish to ensure target nuetralization
before switching targets, this might be a really big governor on target
servicing speed.

>
>How many gees does it have to be pulling to evade 22 cm at 1000 km (0.03
>light seconds) ?

I was using someone else's (incorrect) numbers.  In actuality, a missile
pulling 50Gs would be able to displace 245m/sec from predicted flight path.
This is 14.7m, vastly more than the highest ROF laser can cover (That's over
678 M^2)  Now, in practice, a missile won't be able to manuever exactly
perpendicular to the direction of thrust, but even given 10% thrust to the
perpendicular, this should be enough to restrict useful PDL to point-blank
range.

>
>>  What is the beam diameter of an average PDL, and remember, unless it
>>delivers all of its energy simultaneously, there will be a "footprint",
not
>>a clean punch through. Assuming a 1cm beam, it looks like 19 shots will be
>>required- if the PDL can fire that many times at once, as otherwise, the
>>area to be soaked expands fast enough that a new fire solution is better.
>
>20 shots will be 50 seconds with a Signature class. How many km per second
>are these missiles going again ?
>

No, those 20 shots need to arrive AT THE SAME TIME.  By the time the first
one arrives, the missile has moved (see above) 14.7m from the flight path
(or less...).  If this shot misses, with a cycle time of 2.5 sec, the
missile needs an entirely new firing solution, which is now only 975km away
(although after only 204 seconds of acceleration, my 50G missile will be
moving at 100km/s).  Repeat process until the missile reaches a point where
the PDL can't miss- this depends on missile diameter, PDL ROF, terminal
target requirements, etc.  Once you figure out how small this distance is,
compare with PDLs bearing and missile velocity to determine the maximum
number of missles needed (barring duds) to kill any ship.
>>
>>    d. Decoys.  The acceleration test shouldn't work.  My missile releases
a
>>dozen globs of super-quick-setting ablative foam with tiny little engines
>>and a "follow-me" guidance, which should be difficult to tell apart, as
long
>>as they basically stay within a KM or so of each other.  All the target
sees
>>is 12-15 little 10cm circular radiators coming at him.  Just makes things
>>more interesting.
>
>Tiny engines wont put out enough newtons to serve any purpose whatsoever.
>And if they do, stuff the decoy tactic - just run em into the enemy.
>

Agreed  I guess you could just dispense with the decoys, and have the
missile turn into a cloud of flechettes at 100 km or so- something will hit
if the cloud is big enough.

Thinking about it, why even bother with a warhead?  The only reason that I
suggested a SFF was that it allows you not have to point the missile
directly at the ship.  BTW, a well-designed SFF can *EASILY* achieve a
velocity of more than 10km/s.  Also, very, very cheap (some C-4 analog and a
piece of uranium oxide would be my choice) compared to det-lasers or nukes.
The fragment will also be virtually impossible to stop- it's already pretty
much a molten slug.



>>
>>OK, just my Cr.02.  As you can tell, I LIKE missiles, old CT ones, TNE
ones,
>>all of 'em.  BTW, has anyone thought about a variant of the chemical det
>>laser, the Self Forging Fragment?  Basically just a variant on the HEAT
>>warhead, you use an explosive charge as a "gun" to fire a slug of metal at
>>*VERY* high accelerations.  Much easier than a contact hit, but not as
>>deadly as det-lasers.
>
>Nope. If you accelerate it to, say, 20 km per second, then it still means
>you have to get entirely too close for it to work. If you insist, use a
>fusion gun (1).
>
>I like conventional missiles too. Missiles with buckets of ball bearings
>are excellent weapons against civilians, and make great anti-missile
>weapons too (Missiles Dont Shoot Back). Little Bubba, the infamous t-plate
>powered, highly stealthed KKM submunition carrying monster, was a wonderful
>design.
>
>I just havent seen any evidence that they are actually useful in line of
>battle in the Traveller universe.
>
>Ian Whitchurch
>
>(1) Any rumours that FS is designing a Meson Gun warhead for a missile are
>false and should be ignored.
>
I also agree that against canon ships-of-the-line, missiles are a waste of
money- but they could provide that second's hesitation...

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

Whenever books are burned men also,
 in the end, are burned.- Heinrich Heine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1999 22:47:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Far Trader Trade Routes site UPDATED

The trade information for the Mora subsector has been added. It 
is only the internal trade for the subsector and is subject to change 
depending on trade to other subsectors.

http://www.ghg.net/tmixon/Trade/

Terry Mixon


_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 01:54:20 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Cities and planets

Hi,
Some place in the traveller rules there is a system to generate cities, were 
is it and could some one post it?  My other question is how is the file at 
http://www.mu.org/~joe/traveller/archive/pdf/planet_map_design.pdf used?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 02:09:02 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: Obtrav: Neat little resource

At 07:30 PM 6/2/99 -0400, Jory Earl wrote:
>
>Actually you are giving me more credit than I am due.  :)  Mainly my
>problems stemmed from unfamiliarity with the subject matter.  Plus the
>fact I never read manuals.

I wouldn't sweat it. If I run 'make' on my WinNT system I get one of
those 'make is not a recognized command' errors. If you run 'nmake'
then that will try to compile 'Makefile', but his makefile will try
to use 'cc' which you don't have - you have 'cl', and you could
'cl /Oxza /W3 namegen.c', but I have a bit higher than the computer-1
I had in 1984 (when book 6 was published), but that is because I have
been in the 'Computer Programmer' character generation system for 3.5
terms. I think I'll muster out at 34, take my several Mcr,
+ a couple of EDU, High speed computer, and possible top secret hacker
knowledge as mustering out benefits and start Travelling...

GCS++$ h+++>* G---  :)


- -- 
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head / no time for mourning
ain't got no time  -- Creed
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:34:45 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: I like missiles (longish)

**Note:  My comments about laser ROF and missile performance are based
on FF&S2**

Damien Fox wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Remember, this a handwave...
> I just assume that it's easier to hit a target with a max delta-V of 6G,
> that is MUCH larger, in every dimension, and that is arguably more
> vulnerable to the laser in the first place.  Also, anti-ship lasers (as
> opposed to PDL) are larger and presumably have a lower ROF.  Unless my
> assumptions are totally incorrect (not unlikely) a high-pulse PDL will be
> chemically pumped and therefor will vibrate like mad.  True, you might not
> be able to see it with a naked eye, but at 2,000 km against a 10cm target,
> well... A larger weaopn with lower ROF can presumably be dampened more
> effectively.

Check out the spreadsheets for ships I've designed (the URL is in my
sig).  You'll see that virtually all of my ships have light laser
turrets (61MJ lasers), which can fire for point defense at a ROF of 800
(per turret; I usually group them in batteries of four) on supplementary
battery power.  I frankly can't see any use for ship-mounted chemical
lasers, since a reasonable rate of fire would require more space for the
chemical cartridge magazine than would be saved with the smaller power
plant.
> >
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> >How many gees does it have to be pulling to evade 22 cm at 1000 km (0.03
> >light seconds) ?
> 
> I was using someone else's (incorrect) numbers.  In actuality, a missile
> pulling 50Gs would be able to displace 245m/sec from predicted flight path.
> This is 14.7m, vastly more than the highest ROF laser can cover (That's over
> 678 M^2)  Now, in practice, a missile won't be able to manuever exactly
> perpendicular to the direction of thrust, but even given 10% thrust to the
> perpendicular, this should be enough to restrict useful PDL to point-blank
> range.
> 
If you have a missile design that can pull 50Gs for a useful period of
time, please post it.  A "standard" det-laser missile at TL-15, using
Advanced Nuclear Drive (AND), has 12 G-hours of fuel, and can maneuver
at 6Gs.  (BTW, standard spacecraft missiles in Traveller displace 7 m^3,
and mass 7 metric tons.)  While you might be able to increase to some
extent the power of the burn (at the cost of duration), I doubt that you
can coax 50Gs out of a missile for any meaningful period of time.  Also,
the most efficient drive you can put on a TL-15 standard missile body is
AND, which produces a _very_ nice signature.  (You can't make thruster
plates small enough to fit, and HEPlaR requires a fusion plant, which
also won't fit.)

<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:37:47 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Cities and planets

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> Some place in the traveller rules there is a system to generate cities, were
> is it and could some one post it?  My other question is how is the file at
> http://www.mu.org/~joe/traveller/archive/pdf/planet_map_design.pdf used?

I don't have an answer offhand for your first question.  However, you
need Adobe Acrobat Reader to open the file at the URL you posted.  The
instructions are on the document.


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:10:01 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

>From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
>Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
...
>Ship Design: GTL 10, 20000 DT USL, 100 DR, 200 turrets (empty), Command Bridge,
>Engineering, 40 Utility, 927 Manouver, 600 Jump, 4000 Fuel, 15 Fuel Processors,
>45 Staterooms, Cargo 14632 (including turret spaces).
>
>5 Bridge Crew, 39 Engineers, 1 Cargo master.
>
>Emass 14006.7, LMass 87166.7, Cost MCr 2736.998, HP 420000, Hull Size
>Modifier:+12
>Accel 0.43 Gs (2.65 Gs empty), Jump 2, Air Speed  0
...

  FWIW, under HG (and at 35 trips/year) a similar ship would require revenue
of Cr 670 per Dt capacity just to cover the mortgage. If only a J-1 model
then the value becomes Cr 357 Dt/trip. As the power plant efficiency increase
at TL D is especially important to J2+ ships those numbers change to Cr 520 &
Cr 305, respectively.

C-2 1kt JumpExpressCo Freighter  MT-L721242-090000-84000-0  BCr ~6.1  20kt TL C
        Cargo= ~13,000. LHyd=4400. EP=400. Agility=1. Low=0. Crew=~80.

  Steven Hudson

    ** JumpExpressCo - We Don't Need No Steenking J-1 or 2 Ships! **

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 00:20:57 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: I like missiles (longish)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 02, 1999 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: I like missiles (longish)


>**Note:  My comments about laser ROF and missile performance are based
>on FF&S2**
>

Actually, mine are based on MT, which would certainly explain the
discrepence.  In MT, a standar missile (HE) masses just 50kg, and has a
volume of 100litres- I find it amazingly easy to produce a 10cm diameter
missile from specs like these.  For the "good" missile, a Fusion rocket with
a strap-on sensor/guidance packeage costs about Mcr .5, masses 4.5 tons, and
carries a whole 5litres of fuel (1 hour's worth)  Acceleration: about 43G.
I assume that by dispensing with safety back-ups, radiation shielding, etc.,
you could easily reduce the weight to around 2 tons.

As for lasers being chemically-pumped, I mean the method of stimulating
photons, i.e., putting a lot of energy (from batteries, a PP, combustion,
etc,)  into a gas medium, then focussing the resulting narrow-bandwidth
emission.  If FF&S2 postulates a different method of lasing, then this
wouldn't hold, but at least against visual-light lasers it should.   As for
the signature, so what.  You will still need to use an active sensor for a
targetting solution most likely.'

One last thing.  Canon missiles strike the turn they are fired, from any
range.  This, IMHO, indicates a massive delta-v with little endurance
(otherwise, they keep trying until they hit...).

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

Whenever books are burned men also,
 in the end, are burned.- Heinrich Heine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 00:23:18 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Neat little resource

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
 
> If you're like me, and have troulbe naming NPCs and characters, surf out
> to:
> http://home.austin.rr.com/rradmin/starwars/
> and play with the Star Wars Name Generator.

I'll share one of my referee's secret tips with you:  I collect names
from the New York Times and other international reporting.  I put them
into files by personal name and family name and maybe a few other
categories, and then match them up euphonically (or cacophonically)
whenever I need a Solomani name.  I like the New York Times because it
gives lots of names of people who are not well known.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 03:03:28 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: I like missiles (longish)

At 01:34 AM 6/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
>**Note:  My comments about laser ROF and missile performance are based
>on FF&S2**
>
>Check out the spreadsheets for ships I've designed (the URL is in my
>sig).  You'll see that virtually all of my ships have light laser
>turrets (61MJ lasers), which can fire for point defense at a ROF of 800
>(per turret; I usually group them in batteries of four) on supplementary
>battery power.  I frankly can't see any use for ship-mounted chemical
>lasers, since a reasonable rate of fire would require more space for the
>chemical cartridge magazine than would be saved with the smaller power
>plant.

  Say I was just reading my Battle Lances rules (still have never played
it) but under the ROF rules, it says that you can increase the rate of fire
by pumping more power into it, but it also states that it still only fires
at one target, it just decreases the Diff mod. That is of course if I am
reading it wrong or missing something.
  So if say I shot 6 missiles at your ship, in order for you to take out
all 6 you would have to have 6 of these laser bays.





>If you have a missile design that can pull 50Gs for a useful period of
>time, please post it.  A "standard" det-laser missile at TL-15, using
>Advanced Nuclear Drive (AND), has 12 G-hours of fuel, and can maneuver
>at 6Gs.  (BTW, standard spacecraft missiles in Traveller displace 7 m^3,
>and mass 7 metric tons.)  While you might be able to increase to some
>extent the power of the burn (at the cost of duration), I doubt that you
>can coax 50Gs out of a missile for any meaningful period of time.  Also,
>the most efficient drive you can put on a TL-15 standard missile body is
>AND, which produces a _very_ nice signature.  (You can't make thruster
>plates small enough to fit, and HEPlaR requires a fusion plant, which
>also won't fit.)

  I am going to use FF&S steel tomorrow and try and make a killer missile
that would have at least a slim chance of hitting a ship.

  BTW I have breezed through the FF&S book and can't find any reference to
PDL's? Could someone please give me the page number for the rules so I can
read how to put one on a ship and how they work.

- -- 
>AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
>"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:10:28 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Non-standard PSI talents

> From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>

> There was a set of 50's or 60's era stories about a fellow named Gill who
> was a pecuilar form of telekink.  It manifested itself as a phantom third
> arm.  He could do anything with it a real arm could do and a bit more.

I think he's one of Larry Niven's characters, but I can't remember the
titles of the stories.  

My favorite Niven psionics thing is in A Gift From Earth.  The
protagonist has the power to disappear and be completely forgotten by
others.  At first, he doesn't know that it's a power.  He'll just be
talking to a pretty girl at a party and get a little nervous and aroused
and then she'll blink and get up and walk away.  He doesn't realize that
he has stopped existing for her.  Later he gets control of it and saves
the world.

The novel has a lot of other stuff to recommend it, too, about the
society and geographical background.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:04:22 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Eneri the Eighth (was Herman's Hermits and the Vilani)

> From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
> Subject: Herman's Hermits and the Vilani
 
> At some point during the early days of Vilani/Terran contact, some
> Vilani _must_ have heard the Herman's Hermits song, "I'm Henry the VIII
> I Am."  As I see it, the Vilani would be wondering:

This is surely on The Silly Era web page.  "I'm Eneri the eighth I am I
am/we've been fighting with Terrans next door/we've had seven sector
governors before/and every one was an Eneri! an Eneri!/I'm Eneri the
eighth I am!"

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 02:40:55 -0700
From: "Wayne Ewart" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Non-standard PSI talents

> > From: "Daniel Phelps"
> > There was a set of 50's or 60's era stories about a fellow named Gill
who
> > was a pecuilar form of telekink.  It manifested itself as a phantom
third
> > arm.  He could do anything with it a real arm could do and a bit more.
>
> I think he's one of Larry Niven's characters, but I can't remember the
> titles of the stories.

The charater is Gill Hampton from "The long ARM of Gill Hampton" and a
number of other short stores by Niven.

Strongly suggest all read them (heck all of Niven's "Known Space").Good
reads and good plot hooks for any Traveller game. I also beleave the most
traveller-ish books (any milieu).

I personally like to using "body banks" on TTL 7-9 worlds with high law
levels and high pops.

Really makes the PC behave.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 11:11:55 +0100 
From: Ashley Munday <Ashley.Munday@liffe.com>
Subject: Mirrrors

[First post, please pardon cock ups, bollocks ups and anything else I get
wrong]

Someone posted the idea of mirroring a missile's surface so that Point
Defense Lasers get reflected. How about insteaed of having the surface
polished, using a dilectric mirror (works like the optical cavity that tunes
the laser in the first place but detunes it instead)? These beasts have far
higher efficiencies than traditional "reflect everything" mirrors.

It wouldn't be any good against wavelengths other than the one it's designed
to screen against and how it'd cope with the thermal stress of space is
someone else's problem!

Then, how do you build at the atomic level to reflect X-ray lasers?

Anyway, just a thought....

===========================================
Aescleal

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1853/

Home: ashley@geocities.com OR ashleym@telinco.co.uk
Work: ashley.munday@liffe.com

===========================================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 07:38:05 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Neat little resource 

> > From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>  
> > If you're like me, and have troulbe naming NPCs and characters, surf out
> > to:
> > http://home.austin.rr.com/rradmin/starwars/
> > and play with the Star Wars Name Generator.
> 
> I'll share one of my referee's secret tips with you:  I collect names
> from the New York Times and other international reporting.  I put them
> into files by personal name and family name and maybe a few other
> categories, and then match them up euphonically (or cacophonically)
> whenever I need a Solomani name.  I like the New York Times because it
> gives lots of names of people who are not well known.  

I use phone books and rematch the first names to avoid lawsuits.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #702
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 3 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 703



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Non-standard PSI talents 
Re: I like missiles!
Re: Mirrrors
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Fighter stuff
Check out my traveller page!
Re: Non-standard PSI talents
Re: First In Software?
Re: Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors
Re: Star Wars Name Gen
Re: Eneri the Eighth (was Herman's Hermits and the Vilani)
re: Computer tech in 3i
Re: Rocket Bike
re: Eneri the Eighth

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 07:42:20 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Non-standard PSI talents 

> > From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
> 
> > There was a set of 50's or 60's era stories about a fellow named Gill who
> > was a pecuilar form of telekink.  It manifested itself as a phantom third
> > arm.  He could do anything with it a real arm could do and a bit more.
> 
> I think he's one of Larry Niven's characters, but I can't remember the
> titles of the stories.  

That was Gil Hamilton, aka 'Gil the ARM', one-time Belter, currently working 
for the UN Algamated Regional Militias, aka 'the ARM', the UN's main police 
force.  I have a character in a PBEM named Gil Hamilton who's a direct ripoff 
of Niven's take on Belters.  <grin>  Disturbing fellow...

> My favorite Niven psionics thing is in A Gift From Earth.  The
> protagonist has the power to disappear and be completely forgotten by
> others.  At first, he doesn't know that it's a power.  He'll just be
> talking to a pretty girl at a party and get a little nervous and aroused
> and then she'll blink and get up and walk away.  He doesn't realize that
> he has stopped existing for her.  Later he gets control of it and saves
> the world.

'Plateau eyes'.  A real cute psionic power, especially when he figures out 
how to *reverse* it...  <grin>
 
> The novel has a lot of other stuff to recommend it, too, about the
> society and geographical background.  

It also has some nifty commentary on the dangers of using the organ banks for 
capital punishment.  One of my fave light reads.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 14:51:20 +0300
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: I like missiles!

> BTW, has anyone thought about a variant of the chemical det laser,
> the Self Forging Fragment?

	I have build self-forgin projectile (SEFOP) devices in real
	life, and I don't consider these as suitable alternative to
	Traveller det-laser warheads. Basically the maximum velocity
	of SEFOP is less than the velocity of explosive impact wave
	(the narrow reaction wavefront in which explosive material
	turns from solid to gas). In practise the SEFOP velocity is
	~6-8 km/s, which is too slow for the great ranges in Traveller
	space combat.

	Various fragmenting warheads may have their uses in kinetic
	kill missiles (such as AHEAD, SPEW and TDC), but even then
	the warhead must deplay at ~15.000 km range to avoid being
	destroyed by point-defense system.

- -- 
      Antti Lahtinen                lahtinen@ee.tut.fi
      Researcher, MSc (Eng)         http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 12:54:16 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Mirrrors

At 11:11 03/06/1999 +0100, Ashley Munday <Ashley.Munday@liffe.com> wrote:

<snip>

>Then, how do you build at the atomic level to reflect X-ray lasers?

We can do it now - you use a crystal. Normally, the X-rays pass between
the atoms, but if the angle between the crystal surface and the X-rays
is very shallow, the X-rays cannot pass between the gaps, and reflect.

This tends to make things very bulky.

It has been theorised that you could use superdense materials, although
that would suggest X-ray lasers were available at TL12.

Alternatively, it might be an early use for coherent superdense materials.
These can be used to build starships at TL14 but you could assume that
you can make X-ray laser mirrors from coherent superdense at TL13.
(Much as you could use glass to make lenses and mirrors centuries before
you could make bullet proof glass).

Hmmm, I quite like this idea. IMTU, the Postmark Design Bureau was intended
to be an early experimenter with both X-ray lasers and coherent superdense
materials, but I didn't feel happy about having them use TL14 materials
when their Imperium is only mid TL12. This would give the PDB a reason to
be involved in materials research.

The reason I wanted CSD, is the cute bridge sceen during a battle when
the power feeds to the material they made the ship out of short out and
someone gets to say "structural integrity field is off line, captain!"

:-)

Using the CSD mirror idea, if the power feed to the mirror fails,
you have 650Mj that has just failed to be reflected towards the target.
Still, I'm sure such a thing would never happen on a prototype
TL13 weapon, using TL14 materials, built at TL12...

:-)

Phil Kitching

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Laser Communications Division.
 "For when your message just has to get through"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 04:34:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

In mail you write:

> At 09:30 PM 6/1/99 PST, you wrote:

>   Some of my favorite space games had real physics. 'Mantis, Elite
> Frontiers (Actually had gas giant skimming to refuel), and a few others I
> can't remember off hand. They had Missiles that appeared to follow the
> rules, and out of a 8 missile load 25% hit ratio was good for me(I'm
> actually terrible at flight games, but they are still fun). But you are
> right, most people are mislead by the current popular games, but that
> doesn't invalidate the use of conventional missiles.

I bet they didn't use realistic ranges (hint: if you can *see* your
opponent, it ain't realistic!)

>>The approach angle can't be counted on. The orientation of the ship and
>>the direction of travel aren't related.  Even if you are using the main
>>drive, your velocity vector and acceleration vector aren't going to
>>line up all the time.
>>
>>All you need to do to make most angles pretty damn useless is spin the
>>ship *slowly* about the long axis. With decently placed turrets, that's
>>going to give you full sphere coverage. Objects nearer the fore/aft
>>axis will be the *easiest* to hit in that they are covered by turrets
>>more of the time. objects directly "abeam" will get the least coverage.
>
>   Does abeam mean to the rear? Cause that is where I feel is the weakest
> point for any cap ship. Which probably has a really lousy yaw rate due to
> its mass.

"Abeam" is straight out to one side. 

Assume a "standard" ship shaped sort of like a bullet or a *big*
dirigible. If you have turrets at the "middle" (ie "thickest") part,
then they can cover targets directly ahead *or* behind. in fact their
arc of fire would be slightly *more* than a hemisphere, because their
"elevated" positions let them fire "past" the nose and tail. 

The "masked" area would be on the far side of the ship. Now start the
ship *rolling* slowly. That means that they can hit a point well off to
one side for something *more* than half a rotation. And points ahead or
behind for *all* of a rotation. 

And the ship's yaw rate (or pitch rate!) is likely fairly fast. You
have to remember that in space, the ship pivots about its center of
*mass*, not it's geometrical center. So even if 90% of the ship's mass
was in the tail, it can still turn quickly, simply because the sterring
jet at the nose has a much *longer* moment arm, and less mass to move.

Even so, I suspect that the preferred setup is to have the center of
mass better located than that so as to improve handling
characteristics. This will be even *more* true for ships intended to
operate even *some* of the time inside an atmosphere.

But "high" pitch and yaw rates are *necessary*. They are needed for you
to be able to make course changes. It's *much* simpler to turn the ship
than to gimbal the main drive unit. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 05:18:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

>Has anyone noticed that if you totally destroy a missile at close range the
>debris may still strike the ship, it would not matter if the missile was
>vaporised or not, it just would keep coming on its last vector. If it
>strikes, admittedly a small but possible chance it will pack considerable
>kinetic energy 0.5m*v^2 even if the hull was not penetrated it could still
>destroy antenna etc. Thus degrading capability.

The thing to consider is that the debris will follow a constant
velocity trajectory, while the ship is probably *still* accelerating. 

Also, the debris *does* spread out. And has many minutes to do so.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 05:20:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

In mail you write:

> There is also the question of acquisition time.  It take time to move the
> laser turrets onto target and resolve the .00000001 degrees of arc necessary
> to hit a less than 1 meter object at 1000k+ meter.  You are looking at
> resolving very small angles very fast and very acurately while moving heavy
> turrets with considerable ineria.  Just what are the mechining toloerences
> of those turrents' positioners and how is the gear slop messured and
> corrected by the gravity focusing system in the lasers?  You are talking
> some serious measurments and mathamatical computations to deal with slop and
> paralax.  Where are these problem resolved?  It could be that there is a
> very limited 'anti-missle' range to lasers due to these limitations and that
> limited range and responce time can be used to overload a ships defences.

You *don't* point the laser. Not even with *current* weapons grade
lasers. Instead, you use an aiming mirror. the beam bounces off this
*very* precisely finished mirror and heads for the target. The lidar
for the laser (the "beam pointer" from some of the design systems) uses
the same mirror when determining the position of the target. 

And no, you can't give the missiles a similar coating. It'd be
hideously expensive, and any imperfection would make it useless.
Including things like the scratches it'd get being loaded and launched.

*Normal* mirror coating would just explode into vapor when the laser
pulse hit. After all, if a 50 MJ pulse hits a 99% reflective coating
(most mirrors are more like *80* %) that means that the coating absorbs
1% of the energy. That's 200 Kj. About the same as a fair sized bomb.
Which results in the coating exploding like said bomb. And strupping
the coating (and surface!) from large areas of the missile.

Note that the presence of a dust particle or the oils from a careless
fingerprint would do the same thing to the surface even if it was
*perfectly* reflecting. This is why the aiming mirrors get such special
treatment. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 05:31:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

In mail you write:

> Dont forget that PDL lasers still have to lock on to a target to be able to
> hit it. Unless you have lots of them simply spraying laser beams everywhere,
> lots of gaps!
> This does mean that the first thing to hit a missile will be the PDLs
> aquisition sensor be it radar, ladar, or EMS.Allowing for time lag the
> missile should have time to deploy counter measures such as a chaff or
> decoy.

Oh? At 150,000 km the lag is one second. At 15,000 km, it is .1
seconds. At 1500 km it's .01 seconds. All of these are, of course, in
addition to a fixed lag as the sensor system decides whether or not to
shoot. Personally, If my ship was *alone* and I knew missiles had been
fired, I'd have the lidar pulse rate up fairly high, and upon receipt
of two returns from the "same" target, there'd be a laser pulse on the
way back. And yes, it'd switch to "smarter" aiming if there was some
huge number of returns. 

I figure that you'd have active radar, and possibly active lidar, both
in "search" mode. If they detect something, they pass the co-ordinates
to the laser, which localizes the target using *its* integral ladar.
And once localized, the next pulse will be at *full* power, not
tracking power. :-)

You can add various optical and IR passive sensors to help determine
the location of incoming missiles. 

BTW, I think some folks here are operating under a *very* false
assumption. 

A missile trying to intercept your ship will *not* be "nose on" while
under power. The vectors just plain don't work that way. 

The only times this *could* be true would be if the missile had been
launched on a vector identical in orientation (or 180 degrees opposite
in orientation) from a ship *in line* with that vector. And as soo as
you changed your vector, it would *have* to turn to thrust in a
direction that would give it an intersecting vector, this will usually
result in it pointing at quite an angle to you. 

In fact, it's even possible for the missile to have to have it's
*exhaust* pointed at you due to the difference between your vectors. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 05:51:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

In mail you write:

> You might very well have systems like we see in communications
> protocols, where an advanced newer technology has several earlier
> more standard technologies included.  The local
> OS/hardware/protocol/etc might run faster, be smaller, whatever, but
> when interfacing with systems that don't match the local standard
> the system "falls back" on the slower/larger/less efficient, but
> universally compatible IDP tech.  You can innovate, but if you want
> wide acceptance your innovations must include the standard "fall
> back" standards.
>
> Example:  Ling Standard ship sensors built at the Sylean Shipyards
> are controlled by a set of boards running LS-1134/1107 containing
> innovations that aren't yet accepted by Ling as Corporate Standards.
> The LS-1134/1107 boards also contain everything that allows them to
> work like a LS-1134/1087 (the Ling Systems corporate standard that
> *all* LS-1134 boards come with) and with everything needed to make
> them work like the S1A4\0098 (the IDP standard that all *Imperially*
> licensed ship sensor controllers come with).  
>
> If you need to replace an LS-1134 board in the field, you'll try to
> get a LS-1134/1107 board replacement, but *any* LS-1134 board will
> work...at a lower function.  If you can't get a Ling System board,
> any IDP sensor controller that conforms to S1A4\0098 will work, but
> at an even lower level of function.  Your Engineer might even be
> able to cobble something up from bits and pieces that worked, but it
> would be replaced as quickly as you could with a standard board.
>
> How does that model look?

Not bad. But you forgot the possibility that the S1A4/0098 *compliant*
board may be a Famile Spofulam 1202/zxyw. As such it's capable of
*wondrous* things... if your other gear could interface with those
functions. 

So it's *possible* that instead of replacing the FS board, you may find
it cheaper and/or more worthwhile to buy/build a protocol converter
that translates both ways between LS-1134/1107 and FS-1202/zxyw. 

Mind you, the "average" shipowner will prefer a "uniform" set of
boards/modules. On the other hand, the type of folks that are PCs or
notorious NPCs (like some guy named Solo?) will gladly use "mismatched"
parts if they can get some sort of advantage out of it. 

New Engineer: "Look at this mess! You've got a *dozen* protocol
converters on the buss. And I don't even *recognize some of these
parts."
Skipper: "We've got docs on all of them. Here's card with the specs.
The stuff in man memory is spec summaries you can pick up in lots of
places. But they don't tell you about all the protocol specific
features. Like the jump drive controller. Use standard Imperial
protocols and it's J-1. Use Bocchi protocols and it's J-2". 

After a quick double-take the engineer shares an evil grin with the
skipper as he pockets the data card. 

What PC *wouldn't* like to have the "official" specs on his ship be
somewhat different from the *real* specs? 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 04:47:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

In mail you write:

>   So having inertial nullifiers (grav compensators) isn't Hi SciFi? And
> grav plates? From what I understand from my short time reading this list
> some scientists have made 'Anti Matter'. Yet we still don't have a clue as
> to what gravity really is. We know its effects, we can measure it, we can
> predict, but we can't create it, modify it or control it. 

Well some of us are of two minds about those. But given artifical grav,
the ability to compensate acceleration is automatic. At least to the
limit of your ability to generate the artificial gravity. 

>>Since you can't build "thruster plates" small enough for a missile, the
>>missile is using a *reaction* drive. And *any* reaction drive that can
>>give the standard levels of performance is about as stealthy as a
>>magnesium flare.
>
>   Ok I got a fix for that. In the atmosphere we see light from the engines
> flare behind or to the sides easily because of the denseness of the
> particles in the air. However today fighter jets have the same problem, but
> what if you recessed and zigzagged the exhaust ports of the jets engine (as
> is done with todays stealthy planes) that would reduce the light and heat
> emissions. 
>   But in space simply recessing the engine enough to cover its flare (or
> whatever it's called) to keep it from being viewed from anywhere but
> directly to the rear. Although this would depend on if the engine had any
> particle emissions of some kind of its own.

It does. It's called the *exhaust*. A reaction drive works by throwing
stuff out the tail at high speed. And in a vacuum, it spreads out in
pretty much a cone. Also, you *can't* recess it too far. If you do, the
recess counts as part of the nozzle for the engine. With possibly
severe effects on thrust or on the material of the recess.

The "recess" also wastes both *space* and *mass*. Both are at a premium
in a missile. At least they don't have to be streamlined in space!

And you *can't* prevent the exhaust from radiating IR. In the IR
wavelengths, the missile will look like it's sitting on top of a coment
or something. 

>>Under *coast*, stealthing is possible. But the trouble is that your
>>position and vector are known when you cut the engine. And in space,
>>you'll continue along that vector until you hit something or are
>>deflected by the gravity of something *big*. So even though you are
>>coasting, your position is still known with high accuracy. 
>
>   With special materials and coatings a missile Particularly Radar and
> Light absorbing stuff, shaped correctly would even mislead a the most
> sophisticated sensor system, and with the recessed engine stealth engine,
> and a electronics suite that included light wave and radar emitters.

My point was that since you *can't* hide your position and velocity
*while* boosting, once you start coasting, your trajectory will be
known fairly well. The big problem is the exhaust, and the missiles own
IR emmisions. The IR emmissions are based on two and *only* two things.
First, the amount of energy produced inside the missile. Second, the
surface area. 

You can't do much about the first one. All the energy that is produced
*has* to leave in one way or another. And more than 99% of that energy
is the drive. Luckily, 90% of *that* leaves with the exhaust.
Unluckily, that 90% makes you very visible. And the other 10% heats up
the missile, which heat has to be radiated away from the surface of the
missile.

You can restrict the radiation to only some parts of the surface (with
a *lot* of creative engineering), but halving the area used to radiate
will increase the energy radiated per unit area by a factor of *4*. In
other words, that half of the ship is now *4 times* as bright. 

>   BTW I am taking for granted Ladar is high speed multi-beam laser radar?
> If it is, it would still have some of the weaknesses of radar, and some of
> it's own. It's just that it can be produced at a lower energy cost and be
> more easily focused. I think? (BTW I was a Radar technician (not engineer)
> for the military before I got out. But that don't mean I know what I am
> talking about.)

Actually, it *won't* have some of the disadvantages of radar. Due to
the much shorter wavelngth, you *can't* create chaff. That's because
the foil strips in chaff are cut to *resonate* at various radar
frequencies, thus giving a *much* bigger return than a random length of
foil would. You can't do that with light. 

Also, again due to the higher frequencies involved, you can't generate
false returns as easily. 

BTW, ever work with "frequency agile" radar (that you can talk about)?
That kind of thing can *really* spoil your day. "Random" patterns of
pulses at "random" frequencies can be re-assembled it *very* good, and
non-spoofed, images if you know the pattern.

>>If you can manage to be coasting *before* the ship gets inside its
>>sensor range, then stealth might let you get close enough to fire up
>>your engines *if* you get close enough. But being in the right position
>>on anything close to the right vector is going to be sheer luck. 
>>
>>Though I suspect that this is how "mines" would work. Drifting,
>>stealthed missiles that only fire up once you get too close for a miss.
>
>  What I have always thought of as Skip missiles is a missile that runs
> silent for awhile and goes active for a brief time in order to get a lock.
> Maybe like a milli second or so. Then corrects it's course and runs silent
> again.

The problem is that such a missile has next to *no* chance of ever
hitting its target. It'll take *far* too long to get there. You see,
ships can keep boosting for *days*. That gives them velocities that a
missile just can't match. 

Being launched from a ship *helps*, but the missile has to make the
required velocity change to intercept the ship on its own. 

Unlike here on earth, the missiles *aren't* faster than their targets,
or at least not a lot. It might help to think of some of the old cruise
missile predecessors, such as the Bomarc trying to hit a B-52 or some
such. Both have similar speed and aceleration characteristics. But the
bomber has more *fuel*. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 13:44:13 +0000
From: Matthew Harelick <matth@CYBERNEX.NET>
Subject: Check out my traveller page!

Hi: 

Check out my traveller page at:

http://www2.cybernex.net/~matth/RPS/traveller.htm


IMTU tc+ tm+ t4 !tg ?tt>+ ru ge-- !3i c jt? au ls+@ pi ta++ he+

Matthew Harelick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 06:25:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Non-standard PSI talents

In mail you write:

> There was a set of 50's or 60's era stories about a fellow named Gill who
> was a pecuilar form of telekink.  It manifested itself as a phantom third
> arm.  He could do anything with it a real arm could do and a bit more.

Actually those stories were in the 70s and 80s. Larry Niven's "Gil the
ARM" stories. And his telekinetic "arm" was a *lot* weaker than a real
arm. For instance, when he used it to hold a cigarette, he had to hold
it in his "fist". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 06:33:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: First In Software?

In mail you write:

> I'm modifying Metator to handle the GURPS variant. So yes, it will be
> available.
>
> As to being available on a PC...  Well, if someone donates me a PC, I'll
> code it, but I'm not investing my own money in one.  An iMac, maybe, but
> not anytime soon, especially if the neo-cons get back in power.

Would a 386 do?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 06:35:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors

In mail you write:

>
>         Enlighten me if you will, but what would be the effect on laser fire 
> if a missile had a highly reflectived or mirrored surface.   While it would 
> be impractical to mirror the surface of a starship, a one-time use, deep 
> space missile could easily have a mirrorer outer shell.     If the mirrored 
> surface could deflect a significant amount of laser energy, then the missile 
> might be more survivable.   And yes, I realize that TL 13+ x-ray lasers 
> would not be affected.

The problem is that mirroring is either not reflective enough, or both
hideously expensive and *way* too sensitive to damage. 

Consider that a mirror that reflects 99% of the incident light (a
*damn* good mirror, even by astronomical standards) is still going to
absorb 1% of it. 

If the light is a 50 MJ laser pulse, that means the mirror just got hit
by 200 kJ of energy. Which ought to ruin it thoroughly. 

The sort of 99.9999% coating you need can't survive the stresses of
getting loaded and fired. It's hard enough to keep the coating on the
(rather small) aiming mirrors for the lasers intact. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 10:18:41 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Star Wars Name Gen

> I hate to be so paranoid, but Mother's maiden name and place of birth are
> common authenticators for on line-accounts. (Forget a password, and many
> systems will ask for one or both as ID.)  Any chance this is a clever
> method for gathering such info?
> 
> Tom Schoene

I anticipated such and put in bogus data (aside from my name)
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:18:41 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Eneri the Eighth (was Herman's Hermits and the Vilani)

Glenn Goffin wrote:

> > From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
> > Subject: Herman's Hermits and the Vilani
> 
> > At some point during the early days of Vilani/Terran contact, some
> > Vilani _must_ have heard the Herman's Hermits song, "I'm Henry the VIII
> > I Am."  As I see it, the Vilani would be wondering:
>
> This is surely on The Silly Era web page.  "I'm Eneri the eighth I am I
> am/we've been fighting with Terrans next door/we've had seven sector
> governors before/and every one was an Eneri! an Eneri!/I'm Eneri the
> eighth I am!"

I looked (http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/silytrav.html) and it's not -- I'm
not sure whether this isn't a good thing.  :)

    I'm Eneri the Eighth, I am,
    Eneri the Eighth, I am, I am.
    I've been fighting the Terrans next door,
    We've been beaten seven times before.
    And ev'ry time 'twas an Eneri  (Eneri!)
    Never wouldn't do an Enli or a Gam.  (No sir!)
    I'm the eighth from Vland that was Eneri,
    Eneri the Eighth I am.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:21:56 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Computer tech in 3i

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
New Engineer: "Look at this mess! You've got a *dozen* protocol
converters on the buss. And I don't even *recognize some of these
parts."
Skipper: "We've got docs on all of them. Here's card with the specs.
The stuff in man memory is spec summaries you can pick up in lots of
places. But they don't tell you about all the protocol specific
features. Like the jump drive controller. Use standard Imperial
protocols and it's J-1. Use Bocchi protocols and it's J-2". 

After a quick double-take the engineer shares an evil grin with the
skipper as he pockets the data card. 
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Just for fun:

That evil grin on the Engineer's face didn't mean what the skipper thought
it did. 

The Free Trader's next stop is a high law level planet, very corrupt.
The new engineer's brother-in-law is a starship inspector for that planet's
government. 

That data card is evidence for "deliberate, continuous safety violations,
posing an imminent risk to passengers, crew, and other vessels."
Specifically, the hotwiring of a jump governor only rated for Jump-1 so
that it's operating at 200% of safe rating.

(This of course assumes the drive wasn't originally designed to run with
the Bocci jump-2 controls, or that the modifications haven't been properly
approved by a starship safety inspector already.) 

The port inspectors were never supposed to know about this capability.
The skipper thought he could trust his engineer. Unless the skipper
thinks fast when the inspector "happens to have a copy of the protocols",
he may very well lose his ship* - and the treacherous engineer and his
brother-in-law will have a nice percentage of the seizure money (after
auction) to split.

The skipper and his loyal crew may wish to debate the point, possibly
by breaking into the impound yard and doing things that will wear out
their welcome in this system for some decades to come. ;-)

Walt Smith

*Yes, *lose* it - not just get it impounded until repairs are made. The
inspector can make a case (at least, to the corrupt local officials)
that the captain has shown a pattern of deliberate and egregious safety 
violations. He'll be lucky to stay out of jail...or, alternately, springing him
from the local hoosegow can be part of the scenario.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 15:49:03 +0100
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Rocket Bike

In message <990601.123706.2w3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>, Leonard
Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes
>Insanely dangerous? Well, if you insist. Oxygen tanks (LOX *or*
>pressurized) are dangerous. On a vehicle they are more so. Just
>consider the fun if an oxygen line springs a leak. If there's a spark,
>it makes like a blowtorch.

And what is the oxidant that the oxygen burns with?
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:43:33 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Eneri the Eighth

Steven Bonneville wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I looked (http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/silytrav.html) and it's not -- I'm
not sure whether this isn't a good thing.  :)

    I'm Eneri the Eighth, I am,
    Eneri the Eighth, I am, I am.
    I've been fighting the Terrans next door,
    We've been beaten seven times before.
    And ev'ry time 'twas an Eneri  (Eneri!)
    Never wouldn't do an Enli or a Gam.  (No sir!)
    I'm the eighth from Vland that was Eneri,
    Eneri the Eighth I am.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Second war, same as before!!

    I'm Eneri the Eighth, I am,
    Eneri the Eighth, I am, I am.
    I've been fighting the Terrans next door,
    (continue and repeat...)

<G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #703
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 3 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 704



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #703
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #681
RE: Currency
OT:  Star Wars ASCIImation
Re: Currency
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
Re: Far Trader Trade Routes site
Re: Fighter stuff
RE: Currency
Just a test... please ignore
re: Eneri the Eighth
Copyright vs. Trademark
Fw: I like missiles
Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors
Re: Cities and planets
[none]
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Cities and planets
Great SF miniatures resource is back
Re: Currency
Re: Currency
World info in Mora subsector
Re: Eneri the Eighth (was Herman's Hermits and the Vilani)
instanta books
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #681

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 10:09:50 -0500 
From: Steve Lieb <steve@necadon.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #703

> In message <990601.123706.2w3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>, Leonard
> Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes
> >Insanely dangerous? Well, if you insist. Oxygen tanks (LOX *or*
> >pressurized) are dangerous. On a vehicle they are more so. Just
> >consider the fun if an oxygen line springs a leak. If there's a
> spark,
> >it makes like a blowtorch.
> 
> And what is the oxidant that the oxygen burns with?
> 
	[[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  you are joking, right?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:14:07 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #681

>>>> (begin quoted material)
A neat little device which could be the prototype technology
for Traveller's eyepiece computer display is described at:

http://cnn.com/TECH/computing/9905/21/tinydisp.idg/index.html 

A simple, yet elegant design using ancient optics (i.e. a
magnifying glass).

Check it out; it'll be commercially available next year.
>>>> (end quoted material)
Has anyone noticed that these eyepiece computer displays that Traveller
described a decade and a half ago are being used by the Dominion in
ST:DS9 now?  The concept seems to be an obvious one to us Traveller
people, but was new to the ST group it seems.
Ob Trav:  Has anyone made a point of describing this type of HUD to
users in a Traveller setting?  What kind of reactions have you had from
players (or as a player) to these devices?
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:56:38 -0500 
From: "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
Subject: RE: Currency

>Paper money or polymers?  Folding money I suppose, similar to Australia's

By "paper" I meant cash... physical bills or even coins, credit chips, or
some other individual item given a fixed, unalterable credit value.  

>"plastic money" (polymer bank notes), a different process to the "shaved
>block" the Imperium uses.  Anyway, I imagine the Credit "note" is
"barcoded"

I was thinking of Imperial Credit "bills".  

>(or equivalent) so the cash can be traced from withdrawal point to the next
>deposit point?  I understand they use a similar system (bar coded paper

If the money changes hands several times without being deposited, it makes
"apparent" transactions look funny.  I withdraw cash and buy some
black-market item.  The black-marketeer uses it to buy some other
black-market stuff, and that guy uses it to pay off his illegal gambling
debt.  The bookie buys some legal goods in an open-air market.  The
shopkeeper deposits the funds.  The Imperial Revenue Service sees me buying
cookies on a planet I've never visited. 

If there is such a system, I expect that money laundering of some sort isn't
unusual.  

>money) in the current Belgium or someplace there abouts (I saw it years ago
>on a "Big Brother is Watching" type doco... just not sure of which European
>country it is/was).

When I first read about our (US) bills being redesigned, they were supposed
to have a bar-code.  The idea was to facilitate mechanical scanning of the
bills so that bank bill counters and the like would be able to count
faster/more accurately.  I don't know if the bar-code was supposed to
contain the serial number or not, but either way, we didn't get bar-codes.  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:02:51 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: OT:  Star Wars ASCIImation

If you haven't seen this yet, I _really_ recommend it:

http://www.asciimation.co.nz/index.html

(It's moved since it was posted in the Daily Illuminator a few days
ago.  The author has added to it since then, as well.)


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:11:13 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Currency

The Roc wrote:

> Paper money or polymers?  Folding money I suppose, similar to Australia's
> "plastic money" (polymer bank notes), a different process to the "shaved
> block" the Imperium uses.  Anyway, I imagine the Credit "note" is "barcoded"
> (or equivalent) so the cash can be traced from withdrawal point to the next
> deposit point?  

Why on earth (or any of the _other_ 13,000 worlds) would the Imperium
_care_ where and how you spend your money? Do you know the absurd mass
of useless information that would produce?

Some draconian law level worlds might do so, but it's highly unlikely
that the Imperium
would care...they get their power from the free flow of credits, not
tracking them.

Imperial taxes are low enough so as not to make them worth evading; more
than likely, many world's Imperial tax allotments are taken as part of
the berthing fees at the starports, and other such use fees rather than
direct taxation of commerce or the population at large.

As I said, the individual worlds may have taxes of their own, perhaps
quite high taxes, and may rigorously tax all such cash transactions.
More likely, though, cash will be
illegal on such worlds, amd trackable money cards will be used instead.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:15:24 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

OK. I have redone my "optimal" ship design & economic parameters based on
responses and canon corrections.

As a result of this the freighter is now only 3000 DT.  This has the best return
of any ship size.  It has the best port time v hold size trade off of any
tonnage.  This anomaly is a direct result of using the canon fixed unloading
rate for freighters.

TL10, J2 freighters larger than 3000DT are a waste of money!

(will you allow me scaleable unloading rates now?)

Ship Design:

GTL10, 3000 DT USL, DR 100, Basic Bridge, Engineering, 6 Utility, 183 Manouver,
90 Jump, 600 Fuel, 9 Staterooms, 1 Vehicle Bay - 4DT lifeboat, Cargo 2077.3

Crew: 4 Bridge Crew, 8 Engineers, 1 Cargo Master.

Emass 2363.4, LMass 12749.9, Cost MCr 423.407, HP 120000, Hull Size Mod:+11
Accel 0.57 Gs (3.1 Gs empty, 0.6 Gs 95% loaded), Jump 2, Air Speed  0

Economic Parameters:

93.2 Hours - Manouver time - Average Jump Masking 
      - Source Highport to Jump Point to Destination Highport
168 hours average in jump
15 Hours - average port time - loading & unloading time
30.5 Jumps per year (from above)
95% Average loading (FT sidebar page 26).
400 Cr income per cargo DT per Parsec minus 20Cr lighterage fee per jump
(lowest cargo rate used to ensure 95% loading)

Income per jump: KCr 1539.28

Costs per jump KCr 998.42 made up of: 
   6.14 Salaries 
 694.02 Mortgage
 210.00 Fuel
  27.76 Maintenance & Spares set aside 
  60.50 Berthing & starport fee 

Profit per Trip: 54%
Break-even: 65%.
First year Return on Investment: 19%

Which is still pretty good.

Note: I have not included the suggested loss premium of around 3%.  If you do
then this ship is barely profitable, and I would suggest that the corps invested
their money elsewhere.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:44:21 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

Terry Mixon wrote:

> --- Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
> >  My step-father brings up the subject and they had a
> > real discussion about stock markets in the Traveller context.  Turns
> > out
> > Ms. Rivlin had already done some thinking about this, and thought
> > that,
> > while there would be siginificant difficulties, they could most
> > probably
> > be overcome.
>
> She did? The Federal Reserve was already looking into investing
> in some interstellar holdings inside the Imperium? That IS
> farsighted. Scary, but farsighted. <g>
>

Not the board.  Just Ms. Rivlin and the language was just that
she had thought about it.  I don't think any substantial time
was spent on it.  But you never know . . .

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 01:46:55 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Far Trader Trade Routes site

Black ICE wrote:

> I saw that you had the SJG copyright information on your page.  Do you
> also need the Far Futures copyright information, or does the wording
> "...or used under license" cover that?  Just curious....
>

Its trademark issues here.  Not copyright.

I wouldn't be so anal about this if it weren't that the common
mixing of the two is beginning to threaten free speech concerns.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:30:19 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

At 04:34 AM 6/3/99 PST, you wrote:
>
>I bet they didn't use realistic ranges (hint: if you can *see* your
>opponent, it ain't realistic!)

  Well actually in the game 'Mantis', which is what I base a lot of my
reasoning on, You very rarely see your target. And if you do, it for a
brief few seconds as you fly by it at several thousands of Kilometers per
hour. Unless of course your able to match velocity and vectors, which is a
art under it's own. Like I said it uses real Newtonian physics. Lasers have
an extremely long range, but at those ranges it is hard to hit, because you
are the one targeting it, not some computer, which IMHO would make for a
very boring game.


>-- 
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort
>
>
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 09:51:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: RE: Currency

On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Cravens, Carl wrote:

> When I first read about our (US) bills being redesigned, they were supposed
> to have a bar-code.  The idea was to facilitate mechanical scanning of the
> bills so that bank bill counters and the like would be able to count
> faster/more accurately.  I don't know if the bar-code was supposed to
> contain the serial number or not, but either way, we didn't get bar-codes.  

...that we know about.

- -Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 12:54:09 -0400
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
Subject: Just a test... please ignore

Hi all,

Just a test to see if my email account is fixed. For some reason, my TML
posts are not appearing.

Number 1

Bye

______________________________________________________

Glenn E. Myers
ANSYS Inc.                Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (724) 514-2913
Canonsburg, PA 15317      Fax:   (724) 514-3118
______________________________________________________
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:30:06
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re: Eneri the Eighth

At 10:43 AM 6/3/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Steven Bonneville wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I looked (http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/silytrav.html) and it's not -- I'm
>not sure whether this isn't a good thing.  :)

It is now.....
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 12:09:25 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Copyright vs. Trademark

Steve Daniels wrote:
> 
> Black ICE wrote:
> 
> > I saw that you had the SJG copyright information on your page.  Do you
> > also need the Far Futures copyright information, or does the wording
> > "...or used under license" cover that?  Just curious....
> >
> 
> Its trademark issues here.  Not copyright.
> 
> I wouldn't be so anal about this if it weren't that the common
> mixing of the two is beginning to threaten free speech concerns.

I would think that both concepts would apply to a Web site of this
type.  The trademark information deals with such terms as "Traveller"
and "GURPS Traveller."  The copyright part would apply to the quotation
of material from various publications pertaining to Traveller, GURPS
Traveller, etc.

Of course, I'm not a lawyer, but I've gamed with one....

ObTrav:  How important was the Vilani concept of intellectual property
rights, as compared to Solomani concepts, in restricting technological
advancement and enforcing orthodoxy?

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 10:30:28 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Fw: I like missiles

>From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
>Subject: Fw: I like missiles
...
>>How many gees does it have to be pulling to evade 22 cm at 1000 km (0.03
>>light seconds) ?
>
>I was using someone else's (incorrect) numbers.  In actuality, a missile
>pulling 50Gs would be able to displace 245m/sec from predicted flight path.
>This is 14.7m, vastly more than the highest ROF laser can cover (That's over

 1Kkm is actually _0.0033_ seconds each way or ~0.0067 total. 14.7m is based
on d=at where t = 0.06?

>678 M^2)  Now, in practice, a missile won't be able to manuever exactly
>perpendicular to the direction of thrust, but even given 10% thrust to the
>perpendicular, this should be enough to restrict useful PDL to point-blank
>range.

  Displacement is not (AFAIK) terribly significant here, it's the ability to
change future position that matters: v=(1/2)at^2 ; v=(245)(0.000045)= 1.1 cm?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:36:23 -0400
From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors

>Enlighten me if you will, but what would be the effect on laser fire
>if a missile had a highly reflectived or mirrored surface.   While it would
>be impractical to mirror the surface of a starship, a one-time use, deep
>space missile could easily have a mirrorer outer shell.     If the mirrored
>surface could deflect a significant amount of laser energy, then the
missile
>might be more survivable.   And yes, I realize that TL 13+ x-ray lasers
would
>not be affected.
>
>
>		Dave Nelson

I'd think on that one a bit.  There are mirrors for X-rays, they just don't
work for both x-rays and visible light, just as most windows are opaque to
IR but pass visible light.


Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:42:17 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Cities and planets

In a message dated 99-06-03 02:38:28 EDT, you write:

<< I don't have an answer offhand for your first question.  However, you
 need Adobe Acrobat Reader to open the file at the URL you posted.  The
 instructions are on the document. >>

I got that part, but how do you determin were the Mts. and the coast is, or 
is that left up to the ref?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 13:54:29 -0400
From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: [none]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Hi,
Some place in the traveller rules there is a system to generate cities, were
is it and could some one post it?  My other question is how is the file at
http://www.mu.org/~joe/traveller/archive/pdf/planet_map_design.pdf used?
- - -Stephen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
It's an Adobe Acrobat file. It requires the Arcrobat Reader, which can be
downloaded for free at http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/ .


Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:00:59 PDT
From: will richards <willrichards@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

With regards to shooting a laser at a manuvering missle.
  Have any of you considered that the ship the laser is on
is also manuvering for fear of the meson guns and enemy lasers?
wouldn't this greatly complicate the targeting solutions?

Also for stand off capability for the attacking missle, why not use a mass 
driver or a CPR gun mounted in the missle to deliver a Kinetic projectile(s) 
that the missle can aim at the target and even lead the target if it needs 
to?

Spinal Mounts for a missles! ;)


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 11:09:33 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Cities and planets

A quick look at the .pdf shows that it looks a lot like the mapping
stuff from World Builders Handbook, and yes, it's up to the GM to
determing coastline, and other feature placement.

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-06-03 02:38:28 EDT, you write:
> 
> << I don't have an answer offhand for your first question.  However, you
>  need Adobe Acrobat Reader to open the file at the URL you posted.  The
>  instructions are on the document. >>
> 
> I got that part, but how do you determin were the Mts. and the coast is, or
> is that left up to the ref?
> -Stephen

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:35:53 -0400
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
Subject: Great SF miniatures resource is back

Hi all,
Just to let everyone know that I've rediscovered one of my favorite SF
starship miniature reference webpages. All of my links to it had been
dead for the past few months.

http://www2.crosswinds.net/san-francisco/~granvold/index.html

The site has lists of miniatures produced by manufacturers, online rules
for games, and contact information. It is a slow site but worth the
wait.

This could be the enabler that permits me to blow tons of cash 8-D

The Superior Models Starfleet Wars line is exactly as I always
envisioned Trav battle fleets.

Hmm, how is the market doing today.


______________________________________________________

Glenn E. Myers
ANSYS Inc.                Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (724) 514-2913
Canonsburg, PA 15317      Fax:   (724) 514-3118
______________________________________________________
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:43:19 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Currency

Watched a great show about the new money.
A lot of designs and new tech were tried, but it boiled down to two things
1)Bills had to feel like the old money  2) Bills had to survive the
consumers.
Any new tech that violated one of those two guidelines got trashed.
Apparently most counterfeit bills are detected by touch/feel.  You should
have seen the machine they have to mangle bills.  Things like the fancy
holograms and foil got thrown out early, the mangler showed that they
stopped being effective REAL fast.
Probably what happened to bar codes, even though the show didn't mention
them.  They more than likely got too mangled to be of any use.

TV

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 16:55:19 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Currency

- -----Original Message-----
From: Cravens, Carl <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com' <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, June 03, 1999 11:20 AM
Subject: RE: Currency


>When I first read about our (US) bills being redesigned, they were supposed
>to have a bar-code.  The idea was to facilitate mechanical scanning of the
>bills so that bank bill counters and the like would be able to count
>faster/more accurately.  I don't know if the bar-code was supposed to
>contain the serial number or not, but either way, we didn't get bar-codes.
>

Uh, yes we did. All the new bills have a metal strip embedded in them that
can be scanned.  I don't know whats on the strip but its there none the
less.

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 14:31:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: World info in Mora subsector

When I was working on the Mora subsector, I found that Far Trader 
was missing info on Jokotre, Grille and Dojodo. Here is what I 
can work out.

Hex    World     PR    TL    Port   WTN     Trade Classes   Alg

3024   Jokotre    8     7     IV     4.5                    Im
3026   Grille     3     7      I     2.0     Ex Lo Ni       Im
3223   Dojodo     3     7    III     2.5     Ex Lo Ni       Im

Would someone be kind enough to confim that for me and let me know 
about asteroid belts and gas giants?

Thanks.

Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 17:52:50 -0400
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Eneri the Eighth (was Herman's Hermits and the Vilani)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 03, 1999 10:18 AM
Subject: Re: Eneri the Eighth (was Herman's Hermits and the Vilani)


> Glenn Goffin wrote:
>
> > > From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
> > > Subject: Herman's Hermits and the Vilani
> >
> > > At some point during the early days of Vilani/Terran contact, some
> > > Vilani _must_ have heard the Herman's Hermits song, "I'm Henry the
VIII
> > > I Am."  As I see it, the Vilani would be wondering:
> >
> > This is surely on The Silly Era web page.  "I'm Eneri the eighth I am I
> > am/we've been fighting with Terrans next door/we've had seven sector
> > governors before/and every one was an Eneri! an Eneri!/I'm Eneri the
> > eighth I am!"
>
> I looked (http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/silytrav.html) and it's not -- I'm
> not sure whether this isn't a good thing.  :)
>
>     I'm Eneri the Eighth, I am,
>     Eneri the Eighth, I am, I am.
>     I've been fighting the Terrans next door,
>     We've been beaten seven times before.
>     And ev'ry time 'twas an Eneri  (Eneri!)
>     Never wouldn't do an Enli or a Gam.  (No sir!)
>     I'm the eighth from Vland that was Eneri,
>     Eneri the Eighth I am.
>

(Second verse, same as the first!)

I like it!  This could be the Interstellar Wars equivalent of 'Yankee
Doodle', the song you sing when you REALLY want to rub the Vilanis' nose in
it.

John

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 18:08:09 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: instanta books

Our FLGS needs one of these!

Book printing in fifteen minutes.  It's currently geared toward paperbacks, 
but it shouldn't be too hard to refigure this for standard RPG book format


http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/instantbooks990602.html
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
                  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 18:13:16 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #681

- -----Original Message-----
From: Joseph Kimball <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, June 03, 1999 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #681


>Ob Trav:  Has anyone made a point of describing this type of HUD to
>users in a Traveller setting?  What kind of reactions have you had from
>players (or as a player) to these devices?


No particularly strange reactions that I can think of.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #704
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 3 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 705



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Far Future's Inventory
Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Fw: I like missiles
Re: World info in Mora subsector
Re: Copyright vs. Trademark
Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff
Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fw: I like missiles
Fw: Fw: I like missiles
Delano Spacelines Olympia III
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues
Re: Fw: Fw: I like missiles
Re: World info in Mora subsector
Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff
Spaceship mini's
HIWG CD - Different Standards
Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff
Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Non-standard PSI talents 
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 99 17:28:03 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Far Future's Inventory

On 06/02/99 at 08:17 AM,  shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) said:

>>>   Marc Miller still sells Mayday, AFAIK;  <FarFuture@aol.com>

>>Oh?  For how much?  I have lost most of my original Mayday.

>  I'm afraid that I heaved/lost the invoice after getting my order.

Marc, 

Would it be asking too much for you to post a list of what you are selling and for how much?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 18:26:56 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

I just realized that no one has said anything about "Outland" also known as
"Shoot Out at the Io Corral."  It is neither a Merc or Merchant story but
more of a Who Done It.  Any opinions?

I got the party in one game involved in a locked room murder mystery while
in jump.  They needed to solve it before they made the next system.   Has
anyone tried this and did you have any sucess?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 15:53:32 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: I like missiles

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, June 03, 1999 10:32 AM
Subject: Fw: I like missiles



>
> 1Kkm is actually _0.0033_ seconds each way or ~0.0067 total. 14.7m is
based
>on d=at where t = 0.06?

Oops, only fixed some of the numbers, this is indeed correct.

>
>>678 M^2)  Now, in practice, a missile won't be able to manuever exactly
>>perpendicular to the direction of thrust, but even given 10% thrust to the
>>perpendicular, this should be enough to restrict useful PDL to point-blank
>>range.
>
>  Displacement is not (AFAIK) terribly significant here, it's the ability
to
>change future position that matters: v=(1/2)at^2 ; v=(245)(0.000045)= 1.1
cm?
>

Well, relative velocity isn't, by itself, relevant to a firing solution, it
is the distance from the observed point at the time the resulting lase
arrives that matters.  For this, d=at is the appropriat formula.  Ship X
sees missile Y, determines a solution (Instantaneously, no less!) and fires
a PDL.  By the time the laser reaches the point at which the missile was
observed .00999 seconds ago, the missile can be anywhere within an a circle
with a radius of (d=at, or .4895m=[49m/s/s][.00999s]) .4895m.  This will
ensure a clean miss the majority of the time against a small missile, even
at only 10% thrust.  If, like ships, the missile can use more of its thrust,
the solution becomes virtually impossible, barring luck or extremely close
range.  And again, all this assumes literally insantaneous tracking,
aquisition, solution and firing.  IMHO, you would have to wait to very close
range to have a good chance to stop an evading missile, or have a LOT of
PDLs.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

Whenever books are burned men also,
 in the end, are burned.- Heinrich Heine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 17:44:47 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: World info in Mora subsector

Terry Mixon wrote:
> 
> When I was working on the Mora subsector, I found that Far Trader
> was missing info on Jokotre, Grille and Dojodo. Here is what I
> can work out.
> 
> Hex    World     PR    TL    Port   WTN     Trade Classes   Alg
> 
> 3024   Jokotre    8     7     IV     4.5                    Im
> 3026   Grille     3     7      I     2.0     Ex Lo Ni       Im
> 3223   Dojodo     3     7    III     2.5     Ex Lo Ni       Im
> 
> Would someone be kind enough to confim that for me and let me know
> about asteroid belts and gas giants?
> 
According the Classic Era data in Galactic 2.4:

Jokotre:        1 belt          0 Gas Giant
Grille:         0 belt          1 Gas Giant
Dojodo:         1 belt          0 Gas Giant

Hope that helps....

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 16:12:50 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Copyright vs. Trademark

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 12:09:25 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>

>I would think that both concepts would apply to a Web site of this
>type.  The trademark information deals with such terms as "Traveller"
>and "GURPS Traveller."  The copyright part would apply to the quotation
>of material from various publications pertaining to Traveller, GURPS
>Traveller, etc.

The maps are also copied from Traveller material.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 01:32:18 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

On Wed, 2 Jun 1999, David P. Summers wrote:

>>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>
>>I don't think that is possible with a missile. The exhaust is going to be
>>hot or
>>alternativly the missile is going to be hot.
>
>It isn't clear at all the a missile with reationless thrusters is
>going to have exhuast.  It also isn't clear if the exhaust can't
>be cooled and the heat radiate seeratately.  It might be an issue
>to explore, but I don't see it as a basis for a firm statement about
>missile detectability.

The problem is that according to the rules one can't have a thrusterplate in a
missile, right? If you can use thruster plates on missile the hole thing changes
and it becomes a question how much heat the power-plant in the missile produces
and how much it can radiate away. 

Also I can't see that cooling of an exhaust is a vaiable way to go, that is
going to cost more than you earn and the result is a very low thrust value and a
hot missile body. Heat is simply the limiting factor for low detectability for
missiles. If hotter the missile is the easier it is to detect. The problem is to
agree on a lower limit on hoe hot a missile is before it is automatically
detected. I'll check Bruce's sensor rules and see what they say. I think that
its going to be a fairly low value.

>>If the missile is hot it becomes a matter of surface area devoted to
>>radiators. I don't know if there is enough area to radiate all heat away from
>>the target?
>
>The amount radiated depends on surface area and also on temperature.
>This also assumes passive blackbody radiation, one has to speculate
>how one might be able to more actively radiate waste heat at
>higher TL's.

Yes, but you still need som type of radiator and this has to be pointing away
from the direction of travel of the missile. This gives you a very limited
amount of space as the missile also needs surfaces for electronics, like laser
comms, sensors and so on. How much space can you devote to radiators and are it
enouch to cool down the missile to below the detection value? Without having
done the number I would guess no, but as soon as I get home (I'm currently on La
Palma doing recovery-observations of Kuiper-belt objects :-) I'll run the number
to see what I get.

>> But that should be easy to check using the FF&S2 rules. But as far
>>as I know there is no rockets that spew out cold exhaust so I consider the hot
>>exhaust to be the main problem, and this problem is unsolvable
>
>In GT at higher TL, reactionless thruster don't have exhaust.
>This is also true in many versions of CT/MT.

But can you use thrustersplates in  missiles?

>summers@alum.mit.edu

Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no     http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/  
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No  
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++ 
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 19:07:20 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

Tommy Grav wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> >In GT at higher TL, reactionless thruster don't have exhaust.
> >This is also true in many versions of CT/MT.
> 
> But can you use thrustersplates in  missiles?
> 
I don't know about other design systems, but "standard" missiles in
T4/FF&S2 can't use thrusters, since:

1.  The "standard" missile size in T4/FF&S2 is 7 m^3 (7 metric tons
mass).

2.  The minimum volume of thrusters comes out to 10 m^3 (regardless of
thrust), which leaves exactly -3 m^3 for power plant, warhead, and
tracking mechanism.

While contragrav drives have no minimum size, they do not function well
outside a significant gravity well, and thus would be essentially
useless in space combat, which can easily take place outside a
significant gravity well. 

I assume that one could design larger missiles (and larger launchers to
fire them, but the larger the missile gets, the more easily tracked and
intercepted it becomes.

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 19:17:45 -0500
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org>
Subject: Re: Fw: I like missiles

At 03:53 PM 6/3/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Well, relative velocity isn't, by itself, relevant to a firing solution, it
>is the distance from the observed point at the time the resulting lase
>arrives that matters.  For this, d=at is the appropriat formula.  Ship X
>sees missile Y, determines a solution (Instantaneously, no less!) and fires
>a PDL.  By the time the laser reaches the point at which the missile was
>observed .00999 seconds ago, the missile can be anywhere within an a circle
>with a radius of (d=at, or .4895m=[49m/s/s][.00999s]) .4895m.  This will
>ensure a clean miss the majority of the time against a small missile, even
>at only 10% thrust.  If, like ships, the missile can use more of its thrust,
>the solution becomes virtually impossible, barring luck or extremely close
>range.  And again, all this assumes literally insantaneous tracking,
>aquisition, solution and firing.  IMHO, you would have to wait to very close
>range to have a good chance to stop an evading missile, or have a LOT of
>PDLs.
>
I'm sorry for asking what may seem like a dumb question, but I missed the
first part of the thread. 

Instead of using PDLs, why can't the defending ship fire some sort of
flechette shotgun round into the probable path of the missile? Even if it
is a contact det-laser  missile, the warhead is unlikely to be pointed at
the ship if it goes off early.


Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com
ICQ# 33152095

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 17:49:36 -0700
From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
Subject: Fw: Fw: I like missiles

- -----Original Message-----
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, June 03, 1999 5:23 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: I like missiles


>>
>I'm sorry for asking what may seem like a dumb question, but I missed the
>first part of the thread.
>
>Instead of using PDLs, why can't the defending ship fire some sort of
>flechette shotgun round into the probable path of the missile? Even if it
>is a contact det-laser  missile, the warhead is unlikely to be pointed at
>the ship if it goes off early.
>

For the same reason you can't realistically use ballistic weapons vs.
spaceships themselves- both the missile and the target are constantly
changing velocity.  Once fired, the flechette doesn't.  Result, after the
first evasive action, the flechettes are out of the picture.  While I
suppose at really, REALLY close range they might actually hit the missile,
they will in no way stop it- after all, the mass of the missile IS the
warhead.  No fuzes or whatever to disable, the mass will still hit.

Damien Fox
phocks@goodnet.com

Whenever books are burned men also,
 in the end, are burned.- Heinrich Heine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 20:46:39 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Delano Spacelines Olympia III

What is the source of the Delano Spacelines Olympia III, 6000 dton luxury
passenger liner deckplans?

Paul Schirf
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 20:51:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

>Another comment was make on this issue: Mac users can always choose to burn a
>hybrid CD.
>
>(Since Mac is still a niche-market machine, and Wintel sits on 85-90% of
>desktops, it is the Mac users who need to accommodate that vast
>majority, not the other way around.  This is why MacOS offers these kinds of
>options -- Apple knows that we live in a Windows world.  For
>now.)

I thought that we are talking about the HIWG Traveller CD here.  Oddly
enough, this is a compilation of material created by all Traveller players
who have been kind enough to allow it to be published free-of-charge. All
Traveller players, not just Windows users. In fact, it even contains data
created by people without computers.

I was planning on converting those MacDraw files to GIF format, so that
both formats could be included. Now I'm wondering if I should bother. If
Dom, Bruce, Richard, Fred, myself, and the rest of the Traveller Macintosh
community have to burn our own CD anyway, why should we share with the rest
of you?

Does that sound petty and silly?  It does to me. So does telling 10-20% of
the Traveller community that they aren't wanted, when including them is so
easy. (I have at least three students who can burn hybrid CDs, and none of
them are computer 'whizzes', so it can't be that difficult.)

This toleration business works both ways.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 20:33:34 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: I like missiles

Damien Fox wrote:
<<snip>>
> ...after all, the mass of the missile IS the warhead.  No fuzes or whatever
> to disable, the mass will still hit.
> 
All right.  Are you assumimg missiles with _no_ explosive warhead at
all, relying on kinetic energy to penetrate the target?  If so, don't
forget to include the considerable mass of the kinetic penetrator
against your missile's net acceleration.  If not, then you have a
missile vulnerable to premature detonation from either a PD laser hit or
a single flechette from an expanding-cone flechette round.  Further, a
missile with an explosive warhead is _much_ less able to maintain its
shape upon impact than a hard-penetrator kinetic "warhead."  The _mass_
of the missile in such a case is about like throwing modeling clay
against a brick wall; the modeling clay will splatter _long_ before the
brick wall gives way.

I suspect that you are assuming missiles that can ignore the
(Traveller-modified) laws of physics, with the ability to maintain
incredible acceleration over a distance of 300,000 km, and able to jink
at will throughout that distance.

When I crunch the numbers, using FF&S2, I can't get anything _near_ the
50Gs acceleration you postulate, for enough time to cross 300,000 km.
(BTW, for those using High Guard, please note that sandcasters are as
effective as beam weapons in defending against missiles.  This indicates
that proximity warheads are vulnerable to the "cloud of BBs" effect that
sandcasters can achieve.)

Please keep in mind that, given a limit to total net acceleration, each
evasive maneuver performed by a missile subtracts from that missile's
ability to maneuver upon approaching the target area.  Of course, if one
decides to allow missiles (nearly) unlimited maneuverability, without
regard to size or thrust agency, then all bets are off.... 

> Damien Fox
> phocks@goodnet.com
> 
> Whenever books are burned men also,
>  in the end, are burned.- Heinrich Heine

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 18:51:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: World info in Mora subsector

- --- Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:

> > Would someone be kind enough to confim that for me and let me know
> > about asteroid belts and gas giants?
> 
> According the Classic Era data in Galactic 2.4:
> 
> Jokotre:        1 belt          0 Gas Giant
> Grille:         0 belt          1 Gas Giant
> Dojodo:         1 belt          0 Gas Giant
> 
> Hope that helps....

Thanks a lot. 

Terry

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 22:06:47 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

At 07:07 PM 6/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Tommy Grav wrote:
>> 
><<snip>>
>> >
>> >In GT at higher TL, reactionless thruster don't have exhaust.
>> >This is also true in many versions of CT/MT.
>> 
>> But can you use thrustersplates in  missiles?
>> 
>I don't know about other design systems, but "standard" missiles in
>T4/FF&S2 can't use thrusters, since:
>
>1.  The "standard" missile size in T4/FF&S2 is 7 m^3 (7 metric tons
>mass).
>
>2.  The minimum volume of thrusters comes out to 10 m^3 (regardless of
>thrust), which leaves exactly -3 m^3 for power plant, warhead, and
>tracking mechanism.
>
>While contragrav drives have no minimum size, they do not function well
>outside a significant gravity well, and thus would be essentially
>useless in space combat, which can easily take place outside a
>significant gravity well. 
>
>I assume that one could design larger missiles (and larger launchers to
>fire them, but the larger the missile gets, the more easily tracked and
>intercepted it becomes.

Well then why not create a large bus vehicle to move the missiles within
range of extremely high-G short duration drives?  It would be more like the
old scatterpack shuttle from SFB, but if it is a few tons displacement, it
should be able to carry several missiles and perhaps targeting or self
protection equipment.

Depending on how the vehicle is designed, it could be either an expensive
one-way bus or could either be picked up or guided back to the launch ship
for re-use.

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 19:09:06 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Spaceship mini's

  Further from Mr. Granvolds site is this one:
        http://www.erols.com/gpruitt/space.html

  Very beautifully painted work - maybe it's the promotional material
that sells Gazelle CE's to vict^h^h customers...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 21:11:36 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: HIWG CD - Different Standards

Robert Prior wrote:
<<snip>>
> 
> I thought that we are talking about the HIWG Traveller CD here.  Oddly
> enough, this is a compilation of material created by all Traveller players
> who have been kind enough to allow it to be published free-of-charge. All
> Traveller players, not just Windows users. In fact, it even contains data
> created by people without computers.
> 
> I was planning on converting those MacDraw files to GIF format, so that
> both formats could be included. Now I'm wondering if I should bother. If
> Dom, Bruce, Richard, Fred, myself, and the rest of the Traveller Macintosh
> community have to burn our own CD anyway, why should we share with the rest
> of you?
> 
> Does that sound petty and silly?  It does to me. So does telling 10-20% of
> the Traveller community that they aren't wanted, when including them is so
> easy. (I have at least three students who can burn hybrid CDs, and none of
> them are computer 'whizzes', so it can't be that difficult.)

Actually, if I've followed this thread correctly, your plan to convert
materials to cross-platform formats (GIF from MacDraw, etc.) is the best
way to work this project.  In fact [ObTrav], this seems to tie in nicely
with the Imperial Data Package (IDP) thread that is currently in
progress.  In the 3I, major computer projects would probably be targeted
at IDP-compliant formats, with regard neither to the peculiarities of
other formats, nor to the efficiencies possible by targeting data to a
specific format.  To use a late 20th Century Terran parallel, using JPEG
and GIF formats, which are supported (to some extent) by both Mac and
Windows OS, is preferable to using formats native only to one or the
other OS (assuming that one wishes to reach the widest possible
audience).

This, BTW, is why my Web site uses RTF as the text format for
downloading ship designs:  AFAIK, both Mac and Windows machines can read
RTF.
> 
> This toleration business works both ways.

Yes, it does.  This is why I ask that you do as much as you can to make
the HIWG CD as cross-platform as possible. After all, _I_ didn't ask
Micro$oft to prevent me from producing hybrid CDs (a moot point, since I
don't have a CD burner...).

In return, when I post word-processing documents to my Web site, I will
use RTF, if I believe that the formatting is important, rather than
posting .doc files.  If the format is not important to me, then I will
post plain text files whenever possible.  (I currently can't do much
about the zipped Excel files I post in addition to the RTF ship
descriptions, unless someone can suggest a cross-platform compression
system, or unless there is a demand for the uncompressed Excel 5.0
spreadsheets.)

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 21:18:22 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Well then why not create a large bus vehicle to move the missiles within
> range of extremely high-G short duration drives?  It would be more like the
> old scatterpack shuttle from SFB, but if it is a few tons displacement, it
> should be able to carry several missiles and perhaps targeting or self
> protection equipment.
> 
> Depending on how the vehicle is designed, it could be either an expensive
> one-way bus or could either be picked up or guided back to the launch ship
> for re-use.

This may be feasible.  However, AuricTech Shipyards' R&D budget does not
currently allow for development of such radical missile-launching
techniques.  Were we to receive an R&D contract, however.... ;-)

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 22:23:39 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

At 09:18 PM 6/3/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>> 
><<snip>>
>> 
>> Well then why not create a large bus vehicle to move the missiles within
>> range of extremely high-G short duration drives?  It would be more like the
>> old scatterpack shuttle from SFB, but if it is a few tons displacement, it
>> should be able to carry several missiles and perhaps targeting or self
>> protection equipment.
>> 
>> Depending on how the vehicle is designed, it could be either an expensive
>> one-way bus or could either be picked up or guided back to the launch ship
>> for re-use.
>
>This may be feasible.  However, AuricTech Shipyards' R&D budget does not
>currently allow for development of such radical missile-launching
>techniques.  Were we to receive an R&D contract, however.... ;-)

Perhaps as a compliment to the Imperial Frigate 18 program...

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 21:25:33 -0500
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re: Non-standard PSI talents 

Even if you're not into GURPS, their Psionics book has some good psi skills.  
Controlling machines/computer, variations on healing, ESP, and some wierd 
psychic "vampirism" ideas (always makes me think of that Buck Rogers 
episode .... )


 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 20:48:50 -0500
From: Mark A Nordstrand <markn@visi.com>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

> I don't remember /opt as being part of SCO, but it's been a few years since 
> I've had to deal with them.  But I *do* know it wasn't part of Slackware or 
> SLS Linux.
Your right, I just looked at the slackware partition on the ip-masq box
(still
boots, but server end of X won't work since it's headless).  Of course,
SCO is 
(or was, the last time I used it) it's SVR4 based, not BSD.
 
> > ObTrav. (and blatent plug):  My web page:
> > 
> > http://www.visi.com/~markn/index.html
> > 
> > should be updated sometime this weekend with a newer version of the
> > linux/X
> > Traveller tools I've been working on and (hopefully) screen shots of
> > said 
> > programs.
> 
> Coolness.  They ever update that wxGTK package yet??
> 
Funny you should ask.  There's a beta on their website (and mention of a
MAC beta as well--hmmm, this could run on quite a few platforms).  Since
it's
beta, there aren't any rpm's yet, and I'm a bit hesitant to recomend it
just
yet.  I'll be building against the new libs once the I finish up a
couple of
features I've been working on (probably this weekend).

FWIW, I'm ftp'ing the above page with screen/print shots as I write
this.
Take a look.

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 21:22:27 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

>Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 09:15:24 +0100
>From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
>Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
>
>As a result of this [redesign] the freighter is now only 3000 DT.  This
has the best >return of any ship size.  It has the best port time v hold
size trade off of any
>tonnage.  This anomaly is a direct result of using the canon fixed unloading
>rate for freighters.

Not really "canon," so much as "current state of the art." But read on.

>Profit per Trip: 54%
>Break-even: 65%.
>First year Return on Investment: 19%
>
>Which is still pretty good.
>
>Note: I have not included the suggested loss premium of around 3%.  If you do
>then this ship is barely profitable, and I would suggest that the corps
invested
>their money elsewhere.

Ding! Ding! Ding! Folks, we have a winner -- that is exactly the result we
were trying to achieve. The idea was to avoid a guaranteed "money machine",
without making it impossible for free traders (i.e., the player-characters)
to survive. This *is* a game, after all. (Or you can see it as a
theoretical justification for an empirical phenomenon in the Traveller
universe: the existance of free traders.) Moreover, as Jim points out in
considerable detail, if there is a guaranteed profit to be made, shippers
will simply undercut each other or oversell themselves until the profit is
just barely adequate again.

Three percent losses per year is the high end estimate, so the corps *can*
get their money out of shipping, they just won't make a killing (or the
current assumptions won't need adjusting, as the case might be).

>TL10, J2 freighters larger than 3000DT are a waste of money!

For average cargo, maybe. This is a nice result, actually, considering the
size of the canonical general cargo freighters we have (the Oberlindes and
Akerut designs from The Traveller Adventure/FT). 

If you're still not tired of it, however, run the numbers again using only
bulk cargo. I think you'll find the optimum size is considerably larger.
Hence the term, "bulk freighter."

>(will you allow me scaleable unloading rates now?)

Depends on what you mean by "scaleable": it's a non-trivial problem. 

In general, cargo loading and unloading rates depend on the number and
placement of cargo hatches, in relation to the configuration of the berth.
To first approximation, the contact area between the berth and the ship
goes up only as the 2/3 power of ship volume. Then you have to consider the
effect of different hull forms on generic highport hatch placement (most
cargo moves by unstreamlined freighter, from highport to highport). 

Unless the berth is specifically designed to fit the ship (which gets into
overhead costs for facilities at each port of call), you may well have to
move each hatch in front of a hatch on the highport, unload the
corresponding cargo bay, and then move to the next. Halfway through, you
have to turn the ship around and do the other side. This means
approximately the same loading/unloading rate as a ship with only one cargo
hold. (This is a realistic concern, by the way, and one that plagues
shippers and port engineers alike in the real world.)

Streamlined ships unloading onto a flat landing pad have an easier time
(can unload from both sides simultaneously, etc.) but have their own
problems, starting with the 20% volume penalty.

I'm sure there are economies that can be achieved, and I'm working on that
very problem right now for GT: Starports and GT: Starships both. In the
meantime, I'll be interested to see what solutions you come up with.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #705
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Friday, June 4 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 706



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Fw: I like missiles
Fw: I like missiles
Guns in vacuum
Re: Cities and planets
Re: Fw: I like missiles
Re: Guns in vacuum
Pocket Empires and Imperial Squadrons
Re: Guns in vacuum 
Re: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Guns in vacuum
re: Cities and planets
Re: Neat little resource
Re: Fw: I like missiles
Re: Fw: I like missiles
Re: Fw: I like missiles (longish)
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fw: Fw: I like missiles
Re: Cities and planets
Re: Fw: I like missiles
RE: Pocket Empires and Imperial Squadrons
RE: Fw: I like missiles
Re: Fw: I like missiles (longish)
Re: Computer tech in 3I

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 21:05:40 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Fw: I like missiles

>From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
>Subject: Fw: I like missiles
...
>>  Displacement is not (AFAIK) terribly significant here, it's the ability
>to change future position that matters: v=(1/2)at^2 ; v=(245)(0.000045)=
1.1 cm?
>
>Well, relative velocity isn't, by itself, relevant to a firing solution, it
>is the distance from the observed point at the time the resulting lase
>arrives that matters.  For this, d=at is the appropriat formula.  Ship X

 Isn't a*t for velocity? For gunnery it's the rate of change of the future
position prediction, not merely the displacement represented by any current
vector; a non-manuevering target is an auto-hit to absurd ranges in space.
(yes, I should have used "d" in place of "v" in my original post - oops - 
but the answer is still correct to a sig fig or thereabouts).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 03 Jun 1999 21:06:12 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Fw: I like missiles

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: I like missiles
...
>All right.  Are you assumimg missiles with _no_ explosive warhead at
...
>shape upon impact than a hard-penetrator kinetic "warhead."  The _mass_
>of the missile in such a case is about like throwing modeling clay
>against a brick wall; the modeling clay will splatter _long_ before the
>brick wall gives way.

  IIRC the previous debate correctly, it's been demonstrated that at the
velocities involved the missile will crater the target surface pretty much
regardless of the missiles composition; silly putty or clay would have
problems with balancing the missile, though :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1999 22:44:23 -0700
From: "Shawn Campbell" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Guns in vacuum

I was wondering what the effect vacuum has on guns. Specifically, can a
rifle or other "gunpowder" weapons be fired in a vacuum? What weapons can?
Accelerator Rifles? Just curious what weapons can be used if a ship is
decompressed or if fighting on a world with no oxegon.

Thanks,
Shawn Campbell
electric-stitch@w-link.net
IMTU tc+ tm+ ru ge 3i+ c+ jt au+ st+ ls pi+ ta he+(++)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 02:24:26 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Cities and planets

In a message dated 99-06-03 14:10:28 EDT, you write:

<< A quick look at the .pdf shows that it looks a lot like the mapping
 stuff from World Builders Handbook, and yes, it's up to the GM to
 determing coastline, and other feature placement. >>

Okay, and the city placement?  
- -Stephen
P.S. If you have a copy of World Builders handbook that you want to get rid 
of I know someone who would be willing to help you out.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 00:31:21 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: I like missiles

 
> >All right.  Are you assumimg missiles with _no_ explosive warhead at
> ...
> >shape upon impact than a hard-penetrator kinetic "warhead."  The _mass_
> >of the missile in such a case is about like throwing modeling clay
> >against a brick wall; the modeling clay will splatter _long_ before the
> >brick wall gives way.

At 100+km/s the wall is toast. No question.

Diving into water is no problem, try it from an airplane. Splat! :-)

At traveller ship/missile velocities there isn't time for the
splatter process to take place the way it does when you chuck it at
the wall. The exact model will differ based on projectile/target
interactions, but not nearly as much as with tank rounds (0.5-2
km/sec. maybe), and nothing like m/s stuff like throwing clay by
hand.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 02:53:26 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

In a message dated 99-06-04 02:01:01 EDT, you write:

<< I was wondering what the effect vacuum has on guns. Specifically, can a
 rifle or other "gunpowder" weapons be fired in a vacuum? What weapons can?
 Accelerator Rifles? Just curious what weapons can be used if a ship is
 decompressed or if fighting on a world with no oxegon. >>

The only effect that it would have is that the gun powder would not exsplode, 
if you had something that does not use gun powder then it would work just 
fine.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 03:08:13 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Pocket Empires and Imperial Squadrons

Hi,
Is there anyway to convert Pocket Empire forces to Imperial Squadron forces 
and visa versa?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 03:35:13 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum 

> In a message dated 99-06-04 02:01:01 EDT, you write:
> 
> << I was wondering what the effect vacuum has on guns. Specifically, can a
>  rifle or other "gunpowder" weapons be fired in a vacuum? What weapons can?
>  Accelerator Rifles? Just curious what weapons can be used if a ship is
>  decompressed or if fighting on a world with no oxegon. >>
> 
> The only effect that it would have is that the gun powder would not exsplode, 
> if you had something that does not use gun powder then it would work just 
> fine.

Modern smokeless powders carry their own oxydants.  Therefore, they don't 
*need* atmospheric oxygen to burn.  Yeah, guns *will* work in a vacuum.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 02:26:19 +0100
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

Leonard Erickson wrote:

good stuff that I've snipped, and,

> BTW, the bottleneck with x-boats is *not* storage. It's I/O.

Definatly, also error correction at light second distances. I'm sure by TL 15
they will have this sorted out, but at the moment it is a stumbelling block to
the .earth and .mars domains that NASA has in planning.

> Getting all that data onto and off of the X-boat. Contrary to what we've
> been told, the traffic *isn't* sent via radio/laser to the tender as it's
> rendezvousing with the x-boat. There's not enough *bandwidth* to do so
> in a reasonable amount of time. Assuming *perfect* conditions you get
> *one* channel with terabit bandwidth for the laser, and a much lower
> bandwidth channel or channels in the microwave range. You can't use
> multiple lasers because they'll interfere with each other due to beam
> spread at the ship.

Almost correct. You use lots of Lasers in a frequency division multiplexing
mode accross the "beam" of the laser communcator, or lots of different
coloured lasers in one beam, but you only get one beam due to the spred. But,
if you can cause damage at light second distances with lasers, you should be
able to minimise the spread (focus the beam) to an extent where you can get
multiple communication beams to the same point, or a cupple of meters apart anyway.

You would also not only be using lasers to communicate, you would stream with
anything that would move segnificant amounts of data, menson and microwave.
For an analogy think about your computer sending data down it's ethernet card,
all serial and parallel ports, and it's infrared port all at the same time.

Ultimatly the Xboats will be set up to pump as much data accross it's lasers
and radio as posible for the TL. It might take an hour average (wild
uneducated gess) for the tender to hook up the xboat for a physical download,
and you can pump *vast* amounts of data in that time. We can do around 4000
Gigabits of real data in an hour, just with laser and microwave links, at
todays technology (streamed 622 Mb ATM maxed out, accounting for the 9.5% overhead).

> So instead the really *high* priority messages will get sent, then some
> of the well compressed unimportant stuff.

My thinking would be the stuff that needs to be on the next Xboat out-system
will be moved by laser/radio/menson, and the stuff that stays in system can
wait for the tender. This would probably give you the quickest data flow
between systems while you get a small delay when the data arrives at it's detination.

You would then get into communication logistics as to what gose where in what
priority, but then the Xboat has a week in jump to sort all that out, and it
gives the pilot something to do.

IMHO what this would mean is that changing the xboat system would be a lot
harder than just upgrading the Xboats themselves to Jump 6, but would involve
a massive rethink of the communication logistics involved in the current
system and how to adabt it to any new one.

I'll shut up now as I seem to be ramballing somewhat, and it's getting late.

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 07:25:57 ADT
From: Les Howie <les_howie@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

> > The only effect that it would have is that the gun powder would not 
>exsplode,
> > if you had something that does not use gun powder then it would work 
>just
> > fine.
>

I was under the impression that "black powder" is self-oxidizing as well -- 
that is, gunpowder should work fine.

Actually, I asked the same qeustion some years ago (1980, in fact) of the 
folks at GDW.  The point they suggested to keep in mind is that a weapon 
designed for use in atmosphere would be prone to vacuuum welding, and so be 
very likely to missfire or to jam permanently.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 10:22:26 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Cities and planets

SRKOALA@aol.com writes:

>Some place in the traveller rules there is a system to generate cities, were
>is it and could some one post it?  My other question is how is the file at
>http://www.mu.org/~joe/traveller/archive/pdf/planet_map_design.pdf used?

I'm not aware of the city rules, although ISTR that the WBH by DGP had city
generation (sizes) in it. GDWs WTH may have the same.

*.pdf files are Adobe Acrobat files which you will need the free reader
program from http://www.adobe.com/ to read. Download and save the file,
then open it in reader. If your browser has the acrobat plugin you could
view it on line, but it's hard to print well.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 10:09:29 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Neat little resource

Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> writes:
>I did none of the above.  I haven't a clue about this sort of stuff, ALL
>my programming experience is in *ancient* BASIC.

Cool! Is the Droyne version much different to QuickBasic or has it moved
on? How did you get a copy?

;-)

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 03:42:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fw: I like missiles

In mail, traveller@lists.imagiconline.com writes:

> Remember, this a handwave...
> I just assume that it's easier to hit a target with a max delta-V of 6G,
> that is MUCH larger, in every dimension, and that is arguably more
> vulnerable to the laser in the first place.  Also, anti-ship lasers (as
> opposed to PDL) are larger and presumably have a lower ROF.  Unless my
> assumptions are totally incorrect (not unlikely) a high-pulse PDL will be
> chemically pumped and therefor will vibrate like mad.  True, you might not
> be able to see it with a naked eye, but at 2,000 km against a 10cm target,
> well... A larger weaopn with lower ROF can presumably be dampened more
> effectively.

Shipboard lasers are more likely free-electron lasers. Chemical lasers
would require prohibitive amounts of fuel (the chemicals).

>>How many gees does it have to be pulling to evade 22 cm at 1000 km (0.03
>>light seconds) ?
>
> I was using someone else's (incorrect) numbers.  In actuality, a missile
> pulling 50Gs would be able to displace 245m/sec from predicted flight path.
> This is 14.7m, vastly more than the highest ROF laser can cover (That's over
> 678 M^2)  Now, in practice, a missile won't be able to manuever exactly
> perpendicular to the direction of thrust, but even given 10% thrust to the
> perpendicular, this should be enough to restrict useful PDL to point-blank
> range.

Slight problem. How are you managing to get a 5 ton missile that can
accelerate at 50g for multiple turns (several hours)?

That's one of the things people have trouble grasping. In Traveller,
the missiles *can't* out-accelerate the targets, except at ridiculously
short ranges. The intercept requires a marathon runner, not a sprinter.

> Thinking about it, why even bother with a warhead?  The only reason that I
> suggested a SFF was that it allows you not have to point the missile
> directly at the ship.  BTW, a well-designed SFF can *EASILY* achieve a
> velocity of more than 10km/s.  Also, very, very cheap (some C-4 analog and a
> piece of uranium oxide would be my choice) compared to det-lasers or nukes.
> The fragment will also be virtually impossible to stop- it's already pretty
> much a molten slug.

To have a decent chance of hitting the target, it needs a velocity a
couple of orders of magnitude higher. 100 to 1000 km.sec.

And laser pulses don't "burn through" targets. The energy deposition is
so sudden that it acts *explosively*. Being liquid will make the slug
*easier* to disrupt. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 03:51:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fw: I like missiles

In mail you write:

> I'm sorry for asking what may seem like a dumb question, but I missed the
> first part of the thread. 
>
> Instead of using PDLs, why can't the defending ship fire some sort of
> flechette shotgun round into the probable path of the missile? Even if it
> is a contact det-laser  missile, the warhead is unlikely to be pointed at
> the ship if it goes off early.

Easy. Such things *may* be useful as a last line of defence, but
frankly, the speeds and distances involved are just too high. 

Consider that the ships and missiles are moving at relative velocities
of *hundreds* if not *thousands* of kilometers per second. And are
initiating combat at tens to hundreds of *thousands* of kilometers. 

If the missile is moving at 500 km/sec, and is 1000 km away, it'll hit
in 2 seconds. Your "shotgun" isn't likely to have a muzzle velocity of
more than 10 km/sec. Which means that if it was fired when the missile
was 1000 km away, it'd intercept the missile at a distance of 19.6 km.
That's *way* too close for comfort. And the missile would have had 1.96
seconds to dodge.

On the other hand, a laser fired at the same time would intercept the
missile at 1000 km (minus a cm or two).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 04:03:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fw: I like missiles (longish)

In mail you write:

>>**Note:  My comments about laser ROF and missile performance are based
>>on FF&S2**
>
> Actually, mine are based on MT, which would certainly explain the
> discrepence.  In MT, a standar missile (HE) masses just 50kg, and has a
> volume of 100litres- I find it amazingly easy to produce a 10cm diameter
> missile from specs like these.  For the "good" missile, a Fusion rocket with
> a strap-on sensor/guidance packeage costs about Mcr .5, masses 4.5 tons, and
> carries a whole 5litres of fuel (1 hour's worth)  Acceleration: about 43G.
> I assume that by dispensing with safety back-ups, radiation shielding, etc.,
> you could easily reduce the weight to around 2 tons.

Excuse me? Are you *sure* the rules *allow* a fusion rocket engine that
small? 

> As for lasers being chemically-pumped, I mean the method of stimulating
> photons, i.e., putting a lot of energy (from batteries, a PP, combustion,
> etc,)  into a gas medium, then focussing the resulting narrow-bandwidth
> emission.

Chemical lasers require *huge* amounts of fuel. Said fuel tankage is
not in the rules. So that pretty much limits us to free electron
lasers. These use a magnetic field to "wiggle" a stream of electrons at
the desired lasing frequency. 

> One last thing.  Canon missiles strike the turn they are fired, from any
> range.  This, IMHO, indicates a massive delta-v with little endurance
> (otherwise, they keep trying until they hit...).

Which rules say that? CT has the missiles having to "chase" the ships.
Missiles are explicitly stated to have the same vector as the ship they
are launched from. And then they finally released the errata that said
what acceleration and endurance the missiles had (turned out to be
measured in g-turns). 

Ditto for Mayday.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 03:35:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

In mail you write:

>
> With regards to shooting a laser at a manuvering missle.
>   Have any of you considered that the ship the laser is on
> is also manuvering for fear of the meson guns and enemy lasers?
> wouldn't this greatly complicate the targeting solutions?

Not as much as you might think.

> Also for stand off capability for the attacking missle, why not use a mass 
> driver or a CPR gun mounted in the missle to deliver a Kinetic projectile(s) 
> that the missle can aim at the target and even lead the target if it needs 
> to?

Flight time is the killer here. If the ship changes course, the
projectile misses. So it has to be able to move fast enough to get
there *before* the ship can change course significantly. And getting
that much energy into the missile is hard. Moreover, it'd be better
used to drive the missile. 

The one exception was the "nuclear shotgun". Basicly a design that
manages to apply most of the energy of a nuke into kinetics energy of a
spray of pellets. The pellets move fast enough to do damage, and they
spread over enough area to have a decent chance of at least one
hitting the target in spite of evasive manuevers.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 12:25:44 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: I like missiles

At 20:33 03/06/1999 -0500, Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:

<snip>

>When I crunch the numbers, using FF&S2, I can't get anything _near_ the
>50Gs acceleration you postulate, for enough time to cross 300,000 km.

Try assuming that you have 1G for the first 300,000km, 10G for the
next 10,000km and 100G for the last 1,000km.

Of course you still can't avoid the PDL fire but it might be possible to
build the missile. :-)

>(BTW, for those using High Guard, please note that sandcasters are as
>effective as beam weapons in defending against missiles.  This indicates
>that proximity warheads are vulnerable to the "cloud of BBs" effect that
>sandcasters can achieve.)

This might just mean that High Guard assumed det Laser missiles and
never let on. <duck, run>

<snip>

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 04:26:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Cities and planets

In mail you write:

> Some place in the traveller rules there is a system to generate cities, were 
> is it and could some one post it?

No idea.

> My other question is how is the file at 
> http://www.mu.org/~joe/traveller/archive/pdf/planet_map_design.pdf used?

It's a pdf file. That means you need a copy of the Adobe Acrobat reader
to view and print it. PDF is a sort of "electronic publishing" format.
It lets you have text in various formats, hypertext links between
sections, and graphics. 

You'll need to be running at least Windows 3.1 if you are using a PC.
There's not a DOS reader for PDF. There are Win 3.1, Win 95/98, Mac,
Linux, and several other types.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 04:12:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fw: I like missiles

In mail you write:

>>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>>Subject: Re: Fw: Fw: I like missiles
> ...
>>All right.  Are you assumimg missiles with _no_ explosive warhead at
> ...
>>shape upon impact than a hard-penetrator kinetic "warhead."  The _mass_
>>of the missile in such a case is about like throwing modeling clay
>>against a brick wall; the modeling clay will splatter _long_ before the
>>brick wall gives way.

These are hypervelocity impacts. The impactor *explodes* on impact, and
the KE of the projectile gets turned into explosive energy. At 3 km/sec
the impact energy is equal to the explosive energy of of an equal mass
of TNT. The impact energfy goes up linearly with mass, and goes up as
the *square* of the velocity. 

A 5 ton missile at 100 km/s has an impact energy of roughly 5.6
*kilotons*. At 1000 km/s the energy is over half a *megaton*.

At those energy levels it doesn't *matter* what the projectile is made of.

There's a lovely picture of the thumbnail sized *crater* in one of the
Space Shuttle's quartz windows. It was caused by a *paint chip*
weighing less than a gram, and traveling at a relative velocity of no
more than 10-15 km/s.

This is why *nobody* chasing a ship chases "straight up the tail". It's
too easy for the ship to dump the garbage and hope you hit a potato
peeling at a relevative velocity of a few hundred km/s. At 300 km/sec a
1 gram peeling will carry the energy of 10 kilos of TNT. That's a fair
sized satchel charge. 

So even on a straightforward "tail chase", you stay off to one side and
keep shifting around. The legendary "golden BB" is a bit to real in
that situation. :-)

A couple of ships accelerating in *opposite* directions for a few hours
and then making a "firing pass" are going to have a closing velocity
such that there's no *point* in even a nuclear warhead. It wouldn't add
significantly to the energy release!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 19:34:32 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Pocket Empires and Imperial Squadrons

For that matter what about if the ships displacements are smaller than those
specified. For example the rules state that battleships are vessels greater
than 100,000 tons. However in my game the largest vessel is 20,000 tons and
this is called a battleship. Do I multyply the number of squadron by say 5.
I was actually hoping to use Pocket Empires and Imperial Squadrons in a TNE
game.
Tony Farrell
Skaran@bigpond.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 19:43:45 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Fw: I like missiles

I dont know about T4 but in TNE the space missiles achieve their
acceleration and course changes with very short burnt times. As this means
that they are only intermittently under power would not this make them much
harder to detect?
Also Ladar cannot be used to search for targets, only to lock on to targets
already acquired with another sensor, Ladar or lidar is a point system, not
an area search system.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 13:00:28 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: I like missiles (longish)

At 04:03 04/06/1999 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>In mail you write:

<snip>

>> One last thing.  Canon missiles strike the turn they are fired, from any
>> range.  This, IMHO, indicates a massive delta-v with little endurance
>> (otherwise, they keep trying until they hit...).
>
>Which rules say that? CT has the missiles having to "chase" the ships.
>Missiles are explicitly stated to have the same vector as the ship they
>are launched from. And then they finally released the errata that said
>what acceleration and endurance the missiles had (turned out to be
>measured in g-turns). 

I suppose High Guard for one, although it doesn't have a movement
system as such and I would not like to use its "movement system"
as the basis for any "how things work" arguements.

Interesting thought:

If I engage missile cruisers at long range with laser cruisers,
shouldn't I be able to destroy the ships at long range on turn one
and then shoot their missiles on turn two?

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:00:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: StarShade <dstar2@infinet.com>
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Ewan Quibell wrote:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> good stuff that I've snipped, and,
> 
> > BTW, the bottleneck with x-boats is *not* storage. It's I/O.
> 
> Definatly, also error correction at light second distances. I'm sure by TL 15
> they will have this sorted out, but at the moment it is a stumbelling block to
> the .earth and .mars domains that NASA has in planning.
> 
> > Getting all that data onto and off of the X-boat. Contrary to what we've
> > been told, the traffic *isn't* sent via radio/laser to the tender as it's
> > rendezvousing with the x-boat. There's not enough *bandwidth* to do so
> > in a reasonable amount of time. Assuming *perfect* conditions you get
> > *one* channel with terabit bandwidth for the laser, and a much lower
> > bandwidth channel or channels in the microwave range. You can't use
> > multiple lasers because they'll interfere with each other due to beam
> > spread at the ship.
> 
> Almost correct. You use lots of Lasers in a frequency division multiplexing
> mode accross the "beam" of the laser communcator, or lots of different
> coloured lasers in one beam, but you only get one beam due to the spred. But,
> if you can cause damage at light second distances with lasers, you should be
> able to minimise the spread (focus the beam) to an extent where you can get
> multiple communication beams to the same point, or a cupple of meters apart anyway.
> 
> You would also not only be using lasers to communicate, you would stream with
> anything that would move segnificant amounts of data, menson and microwave.
> For an analogy think about your computer sending data down it's ethernet card,
> all serial and parallel ports, and it's infrared port all at the same time.
> 
> Ultimatly the Xboats will be set up to pump as much data accross it's lasers
> and radio as posible for the TL. It might take an hour average (wild
> uneducated gess) for the tender to hook up the xboat for a physical download,
> and you can pump *vast* amounts of data in that time. We can do around 4000
> Gigabits of real data in an hour, just with laser and microwave links, at
> todays technology (streamed 622 Mb ATM maxed out, accounting for the 9.5% overhead).
> 

I have been toying with an idea about the x-boat ships in my universe... 
Does anyone know what speed and bandwidth one can get from a laser. I was 
trying to design the X-Boat so that after it entered the system it would 
open up its conical shaped frame and present an extractable umbrella like 
dish with the ship being the center structure - I was hoping I could get 
a area radius of about 700 meters or more. Would this speed up 
communications and maybe allow a wider laser beam to the 
sending/recieving station on the world.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #706
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Friday, June 4 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 707



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors
Re: Currency
Re: Currency
Re: Currency
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #703
Re: Obtrav: Neat little resource
Re: Cities and planets
combat in space (was: Fighter Stuff)
Re: I like missiles
Judge' Guild.
"Modeling Clay" Screwup
Re: Far Future's Inventory
Guns in vacuum
Re: Neat little resource
Maximum ship-building output
RE: Missiles
Re: I like missiles
Re: Currency
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: Cities and planets
Meson Support Boat
GT/GV2 questions
[TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Fw: I like missiles
Re: Guns in vacuum

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 04:41:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors

In mail you write:

> I'd think on that one a bit.  There are mirrors for X-rays, they just don't
> work for both x-rays and visible light, just as most windows are opaque to
> IR but pass visible light.

*All* xray mirrors are what is called "grazing incidence mirrors". They
can only reflect x-rays that hit them at a shallow angle. At steeper
angles, the x-rays go thru. So they aren't practical for a missile coating.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 04:44:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Currency

In mail you write:

> On Thu, 3 Jun 1999, Cravens, Carl wrote:
>
>> When I first read about our (US) bills being redesigned, they were supposed
>> to have a bar-code.  The idea was to facilitate mechanical scanning of the
>> bills so that bank bill counters and the like would be able to count
>> faster/more accurately.  I don't know if the bar-code was supposed to
>> contain the serial number or not, but either way, we didn't get bar-codes. 
>  
> ...that we know about.

It's not the sort of thing that can stay secret. To be usable, it has
to be of a size that's *visible* otherwise it'll degrade too much from
handling (check out some of those fine details on the new bills).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 04:46:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Currency

In mail you write:

> Watched a great show about the new money.
> A lot of designs and new tech were tried, but it boiled down to two things
> 1)Bills had to feel like the old money  2) Bills had to survive the
> consumers.
> Any new tech that violated one of those two guidelines got trashed.
> Apparently most counterfeit bills are detected by touch/feel.  You should
> have seen the machine they have to mangle bills.  Things like the fancy
> holograms and foil got thrown out early, the mangler showed that they
> stopped being effective REAL fast.
> Probably what happened to bar codes, even though the show didn't mention
> them.  They more than likely got too mangled to be of any use.

I liked the test where they crammed the bill into a tube narrower than
a pencil and only an inch or two long. They had to use an arbor press
to force it all the way down. Then they had to pull out the muchly
wrinkled bill.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 04:48:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Currency

In mail you write:

>>When I first read about our (US) bills being redesigned, they were supposed
>>to have a bar-code.  The idea was to facilitate mechanical scanning of the
>>bills so that bank bill counters and the like would be able to count
>>faster/more accurately.  I don't know if the bar-code was supposed to
>>contain the serial number or not, but either way, we didn't get bar-codes.
>
> Uh, yes we did. All the new bills have a metal strip embedded in them that
> can be scanned.  I don't know whats on the strip but its there none the
> less.

Nope. It's a *polymer* strip. Hold a new bill up to the light and
you'll be able to see the strip. It's got the denomination of the bill
on it. In fact, as I recall, they added the strip to the *old* 20s and
hundreds for a while before the switch to the new design. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 04:52:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #703

In mail you write:

>> In message <990601.123706.2w3.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>, Leonard
>> Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes
>> >Insanely dangerous? Well, if you insist. Oxygen tanks (LOX *or*
>> >pressurized) are dangerous. On a vehicle they are more so. Just
>> >consider the fun if an oxygen line springs a leak. If there's a
>> spark,
>> >it makes like a blowtorch.
>> 
>> And what is the oxidant that the oxygen burns with?

Oxygen *is* the oxidant. The correct question is what is the *reducing
agent* (aka "fuel"). 

It could be the atmosphere. In the case of the Apollo I fire, it was
the *oxgen line*. That is, the line caught fire and the oxygen jetting
out let the tubing burn like mad while spraying a jet of superheated
oxygen. The various metals in the control panels and capsule structure
ignited from that...

Ever watch someone use a cutting torch? That bright white shower of
sparks is *steel* burning in a jet of oxygen.
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 04:33:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Obtrav: Neat little resource

In mail you write:

> I wouldn't sweat it. If I run 'make' on my WinNT system I get one of
> those 'make is not a recognized command' errors.

Try "Make love" on various versions of make. You'll discover an *old*
joke embedded in some of them. And standard response is pretty funny
all by itself.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:14:20 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Cities and planets

- ----------
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Some place in the traveller rules there is a system to generate cities,
were 
> > is it and could some one post it?
> 
> No idea.

I've lost the original, so I'll piggyback here.  The DGP World Builder's
Handbook has a system for determining how many cities of various sizes a
given world has.  

It's far too involved to post, even if that didn't bust copyright.  Sorry.

Tom Schoene 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 07:20:49 -0500 
From: Steve Lieb <steve@necadon.com>
Subject: combat in space (was: Fighter Stuff)

> >I bet they didn't use realistic ranges (hint: if you can *see* your
> >opponent, it ain't realistic!)
> 
>   Well actually in the game 'Mantis', which is what I base a lot of my
> reasoning on, You very rarely see your target. And if you do, it for a
> brief few seconds as you fly by it at several thousands of Kilometers
> per
> hour. Unless of course your able to match velocity and vectors, which
> is a
> art under it's own. Like I said it uses real Newtonian physics. Lasers
> have
> an extremely long range, but at those ranges it is hard to hit,
> because you
> are the one targeting it, not some computer, which IMHO would make for
> a
> very boring game.
	[[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  from my short experience with Mantis,
it does use physics in terms of movement, but there the reality ends.
	For a truly realistic system, you need to simulate the lag ANY
detection system would have at the tremendous ranges involved.  At
150,000km (not an uncommon range for space scales) you'd have a full
second lag in the time it would take any active sensor to register the
ship (ping to craft, bounce, return).  Passive sensors, ironically would
be MORE accurate since the lag would effectively be halved.  And if the
ship is moving at 1000kph (creeping, in space terms) this moves it 300m
in that second - far enough to easily avoid any sort of beam fire.  Of
course, if a ship was moving on a set course, the targetting could be
plotted and would be accurate.  But I would imagine at the first sign of
any danger, the computer's first move is to add a random vector-altering
component to the thrust direction.

	Of course, this means that space combat using direct-fire
weapons is a matter more of ambushing the prey or combat of last resort
against a determined or helpless foe.  (It also suggests why ships are
vulnerable on their way to the jump point - if you're using you maximum
acceleration as adding to your singe forward vector, you have no
acceleration for erratic maneuvers.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 05:42:59 PDT
From: will richards <willrichards@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: I like missiles

>>All right.  Are you assumimg missiles with _no_ explosive warhead at
all, relying on kinetic energy to penetrate the target?  If so, don't
forget to include the considerable mass of the kinetic penetrator
against your missile's net acceleration.  If not, then you have a
missile vulnerable to premature detonation from either a PD laser hit or a 
single flechette from an expanding-cone flechette round.  Further, a missile 
with an explosive warhead is _much_ less able to maintain its shape upon 
impact than a hard-penetrator kinetic "warhead."  The _mass_ of the missile 
in such a case is about like throwing modeling clay against a brick wall; 
the modeling clay will splatter _long_ before the brick wall gives way.
<<

  You do realize that the US Space shuttle was nearly penitrated by a paint 
chip a few years back.  I think that a paint chip is much softer  than the 
explosive warhead you mentioned above.

Will


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:45:33 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Judge' Guild.

TMLers:

No one else has mentioned this yet, so I guess I should.  Judges Guild is
back in business!  Looks like they've been going since March, but I hadn't
heard anything until Pyramid reported it yesterday.  They're selling lots
of their old stock, including Traveller supplements.  It also sounds like
they plan to produce new products, although I don't know if they plan to
support Traveller again.

Here's their web page: http://www.judgesguild.com/

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 07:47:49 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: "Modeling Clay" Screwup

All right, so that was a poor analogy.  My bad.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:48:42 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Far Future's Inventory

>On 06/02/99 at 08:17 AM,  shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) said:
>
>>>>   Marc Miller still sells Mayday, AFAIK;  <FarFuture@aol.com>
>
>>>Oh?  For how much?  I have lost most of my original Mayday.
>
>>  I'm afraid that I heaved/lost the invoice after getting my order.
>
>Marc,
>
>Would it be asking too much for you to post a list of what you are selling
>and for how much?

I don't think Marc reads this group that regularly (traffic adn
noise/signal ratio you know).  Try sending this message directly to the
email address mentioned (farfuture@aol.com).

Of course, you could also sign on to his web site at;

http://members.aol.com/farfuture/Traveller.html

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 16:02:10 +0300
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Guns in vacuum

Shawn Campbell wrote:

> I was wondering what the effect vacuum has on guns. Specifically, can 
> a rifle or other "gunpowder" weapons be fired in a vacuum?

	Almost all forms of explosives (except fuel-air explosive) 
	contain all chemical components required for the reaction. This 
	applies to all known forms of gunpowder, and thus a gun can work 
	in vacuum (and underwater, etc.).

	However, vacuum causes some other problems. Weapon components 	
	may fuse together since there is no layer of gas (air) to keep 
	the components separate. Vacuum welding happens especially when 
	smooth pieces of the same metal are jammed against each other 
	during recoil. This problem can be solved by using suitable 
	materials and surface finishes, and using suitable lubricants 
	which do not evaporate in vacuum.

	While most common projectile types (bullets) are spin- 
	stabilized, some modern projectiles require atmospheric drag for 
	stabilization (flechettes, air-rifled shotgun slugs). Therefore 
	air-stabilized projectiles may be more inaccurate when fired in 
	vacuum.

	For example, shotgun flechettes (16 wire-flechettes in a 	
	12/70 shotgun shell) tend to fly sideways for the fest 2-5 
	meters before the drag pushed fin so that the flechettes turn
	to fly point-first.

- -- 
      Antti Lahtinen                lahtinen@ee.tut.fi
      Researcher, MSc (Eng)         http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 09:30:34 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Neat little resource

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> writes:
> >I did none of the above.  I haven't a clue about this sort of stuff, ALL
> >my programming experience is in *ancient* BASIC.
> 
> Cool! Is the Droyne version much different to QuickBasic or has it moved
> on? How did you get a copy?
> 
> ;-)
> 
> Dom
> 
> ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
> "In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
> Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
>   see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
>                   Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
> Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/

Well, I was accosted by a small, disc-shaped flying object full of
'droyne' who were obviously inebriated.  They handed me a disk and went
on their way.  I plugged this disk into my Hewlett-Packard 125 C/PM
machine and ran it.  On the disk was 'ancient' BASIC.  Of particular
interest was the droyne version of 'ANSI' which consisted of an arcane
bit of symbols and control codes.

For instance, replacing the CLS command was this :

print chr$(7)+"h"+chr$(7)+"J"
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:46:55 EDT
From: TDRandall@aol.com
Subject: Maximum ship-building output

Does anyone here have an idea where I can find maximum ship size and total 
size output for various Starport/Tech Level combinations?

I can't seem to find anything about it in my MT Referee's Manual, but it just 
makes sense that a TL 10, C class starport wouldn't be able to keep up with a 
TL 15, A class starport.  And it also makes sense to me that both 
restrictions (TL10, C starport) should restrict the size of what even could 
be made in the first place.

Any suggestions?  Does Pocket Empires give info for a protracted ship 
building "cold-war" between two warring planets?  (My ultimate goal)

Thank you!

Tony

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 10:05:04 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Missiles

It is my untrained impression that while a low velocity projectile is
likely to shatter a window, a high velocity projectile may punch through a
small hole. Wouldn't a missile with lots of v just punch through a vessel,
doing nasty damage but not vaporizing it the way a nuclear warhead would?

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 07:51:49 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: I like missiles

>From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>Subject: Re: Fw: I like missiles (longish)
.
>I suppose High Guard for one, although it doesn't have a movement
>system as such and I would not like to use its "movement system"
>as the basis for any "how things work" arguements.

  Presumably High Guard is assumed to be based on a vector system, as
the detailed CT (& CT-era stuff like Triplanetary) space combat systems
are vector based (B:2, Mayday). The old Dragon article to that effect
is a bit limited by its shortness, but you could play it as the above but
using Agility (before mods for Pilot 3+) as maneuver-G's.

        Steven Hudson

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"
        (but Space 1889 is quite cool, too)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:00:43 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Brannon W. Boren" <brannonb@animal.blarg.net>
Subject: Re: Currency

On Fri, 4 Jun 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> >> ...but either way, we didn't get bar-codes. 
> >  
> > ...that we know about.
> 
> It's not the sort of thing that can stay secret. To be usable, it has
> to be of a size that's *visible*

But not necessarily visible to the *human* eye...  ;)

Seriously though, it would be possible to barcode the bill in such a way
that the code is not visible under normal light and is only detectable by
a scanner of some type. Then the code could be nice and big, and repeated
several times, on the bill so that it never becomes too mangled to read.

Brannon

- --
Brannon W. Boren -- http://www.solaria.net/brannonb/
"Never give up on a dream just because of the time it
will take to accomplish it. The time will pass anyway."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 08:11:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

> I was wondering what the effect vacuum has on guns. Specifically, can a
> rifle or other "gunpowder" weapons be fired in a vacuum? What weapons can?
> Accelerator Rifles? Just curious what weapons can be used if a ship is
> decompressed or if fighting on a world with no oxegon.

IIRC, you can fire them, HOWEVER you've the problem of recoil.  You might
want to see what information you can find on a 'GyroJet' Pistol (I believe
that is the correct name), I'm pretty sure it was designed in the 60's with
a limited number made.  Each bullet is actually a miniature rocket.

BTW, this is from a book on guns I read in the early 80's so I might be 
remembering some details wrong.

			Zane

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 08:24:49 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Cities and planets

SRKOALA@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-06-03 14:10:28 EDT, you write:
> 
> << A quick look at the .pdf shows that it looks a lot like the mapping
>  stuff from World Builders Handbook, and yes, it's up to the GM to
>  determing coastline, and other feature placement. >>
> 
> Okay, and the city placement?

Throughout the WBH section on mapping the world, there are statements like
"Exact placement of 'X' is left to the one drawing the map"

Mapping worlds is a labor intensive process, still.

There are rules in the book regarding city size and placement as it varies by
tech level, but the very best reference for mapping worlds is a good atlas.
Cities on Earth arose via pretty much natural selection...they flourished
where conditions allowed them to. They're built around transportation hubs, or
heavy concentrations of resources, such as good ports, natural transport
pathways, or good water supplies for irrigation and such. In fact the only
city I can think of otherwise, is the capital of Brazil, Sao Paolo, which is
an extensively 'planned' city. 

It is also a city planned by people way back in the 60's with 60's utopian
visions and ideals, and as such, as a 90's city in Brazil, it doesn't work
very well. Everyone ended up living in a welter of suburbs around the city,
which grew helter skelter as cities do, rather than in the planned capital.
There are also serious problems such as that the original planners really,
REALLY liked the automobile, so Sao Paolo has extensive roadways, and little
provision for pedestrians, a design that automatically selects against people
actually living there. 

I could go on about the folly of planning a city around vehicle roadways, but
that'll turn into a major OT rant real quickly...we have city managers
simultaneously talking about the need for elevated roadways and freeways
cutting across the city and on out the 30 miles to the suburbs that people
spend 7-8 hours a day sleeping in when they're not working or commuting, and
bemoaning how impersonal and disconnected everyone in the city is. Grrrr...

In worlds settled at higher TL's city placement may be a little looser, but
they're still going to be someplace convenient...with our current tech level,
we could sustain a megalopolis in the Himalayas, but it would be prohibitively
expensive, and there is no earthly reason to do so...novelty is not a valid
reason to spend billions on a city and it's infrastructure. Remember cities
don't spring to life full blown...much like organisms, they grow.

obTRav:The invention of cheap, affordable antigrav: Boon or Bane? It allows
people hitherto unknown freedom of building and living where they please, thus
allowing them to be isolated even more from each other. What are the
sociological consequences of everyone wanting to have a fantasy home built on
unreachable, save for air-raft homes in the crags of the Rockies? Visualise
this: Antigrav SUV's (and the attitude that will come with _those_!)

 Discuss among yourselves.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 12:02:17 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Meson Support Boat

I was reading the Regency Vehicle Guide last evening and finally read about
the Meson Support Sled.  I was dissapointed to say the least, TL-15 and the
weapon lacks stabilization?!?!  The designers and appropriations board
should be released from service, at the least, IMO.

But it did get me to thinking.

If a Meson gun needs to be physically pointed at the target, and using the
Meson sled or conventional spinal mount requires moving the entire vehicle,
 why not build a platform that uses a mount similar to a Deep Site?

It could be put in almost any size hull, providing the dimensions are
adequate.  Here is an outline of my thinking...

1.  Design the meson weapon.
2.  Develop it according to the Deep Site rules and find the weight and
requirements needed for everything *inside* the hollowed out sphere it
would operate in.
3.  Design the host platform, ship, boat, or vehicle to carry it.  
4.  Use the volume of the sphere (determined in step 2) as the volume of
the weapon.  Add a slush fund of maybe 10% for additional structural
support and bracing required.
5.  Treat the weapon "sphere" as a seperate mount and crew normally.

If you create self contained or booster power plants for these weapons you
could rebuild old SDBs or other craft into self contained Meson Gun
batteries for not only indirect fire (Ortillery), direct battlefield
support, or a harassment weapon in the event the world is overrun. 

The nice feature is that the craft could mount as many or as few of these
as necessary.


Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 11:57:46 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: GT/GV2 questions

Couple of questions for building things for GURPS Traveller using GURPS
Vehicles 2nd ed.:

How are meson screens built?

How are nuclear dampers built? GV2 lists them as GTL 15 (!) devices.

In my version of GV2, N-PAWs have a vacuum range modifier of x15, but GT
insinuates that the range mod. should be x50. Is the latter correct?

More questions later, no doubt.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 13:00:13 -0400
From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

>The problem is that according to the rules one can't have a thrusterplate
in a
>missile, right? If you can use thruster plates on missile the hole thing
changes
>and it becomes a question how much heat the power-plant in the missile
produces
>and how much it can radiate away.

I believe that in G:T missiles do indeed have thruster plates. So it again
comes down to which system are you using?
I believe in GURPS Traveller the game is balanced so that against typical PC
craft 100, 200 and 400 Ton Free Traders that missiles are ineffective. PD is
allowed using all Laser Turrets, even those fired during that turn, and
sandcasters can be used against missiles (the rules saw that the sand is
capable of damaging the missile enough to make it miss.) Targets can be
engaged upto 600 x ROF (which is 1/60 for standard lasers @ GTL12) That's 10
missiles. Since only one missile can be controlled by each missile rack a
400 Ton ship firing on a 400 ton ship will never be able to overload the PD.
On the other hand a missile by can control 50 missiles. So a major combatant
could easily overload a small ship's point defense, if they can get the
missile's close enough. On the gripping hand a large ship could just fire a
couple of dozen lasers at the small ship and frag it too.
I haven't played out all these various tactical presentations yet, but I
intend to do some serious simulations Real Soon Now.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 13:19:50 -0400
From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: I like missiles

>Shipboard lasers are more likely free-electron lasers. Chemical lasers
>would require prohibitive amounts of fuel (the chemicals).

Before someone asks:Free electron lasers use a beam of electrons to create
the laser. In present technology the electrons come from an electron gun and
are typically accelerated by a radio frequency cavity and then put through a
wiggler. Every time the direction of the electron beam is changed photons
are produced.  if you pick the right size of wiggler you can control the
frequency of the photon beam and so produce x-rays;so an x-ray laser.



Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 10:24:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

Keven Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:

> > In a message dated 99-06-04 02:01:01 EDT, you write:
> > 
> > << I was wondering what the effect vacuum has on guns. Specifically, can a
> >  rifle or other "gunpowder" weapons be fired in a vacuum? What weapons can?
> >  Accelerator Rifles? Just curious what weapons can be used if a ship is
> >  decompressed or if fighting on a world with no oxegon. >>
> > 
> > The only effect that it would have is that the gun powder would not
> > exsplode, if you had something that does not use gun powder then it
> > would work just fine.
> 
> Modern smokeless powders carry their own oxydants.  Therefore, they don't 
> *need* atmospheric oxygen to burn.  Yeah, guns *will* work in a vacuum.

I'm not sure what prompts you to say this, Keven, but it's wrong.
No modern commercial powder (and virtually no military powders)
contain an oxidizer (not oxydant) as an integral part of their
composition.

Modern cased ammo works because (with some exceptions) the case is
not air-tight.  Even in situations where the case *is* air-tight
(i.e. lacquered S&B military-grade ammo), there is sufficient O2
inside the case to ignite the powder.  By the time the O2 in the
case is consumed, sufficient gas expansion has occurred to force
the slug from the case neck and expose the remaining (unconsumed)
powder to outside air.  This additional O2 supply completes the
job.

As a result, standard modern cartridges will either a) fail to fire
in vacuum, or b) behave like "squib" rounds if a small amount of air
has remained sealed inside the case.  The latter behavior may render
your firearm unusable, depending upon how far the slug travels into
the barrel before becoming lodged.

BTW, unlike black powder, modern "smokeless" gun powder does not
explode, it simply burns rapidly (and, yes, there *is* a difference.)

(I have some small experience in this area.  Note the 2nd line
after my name in my .sig.)

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #707
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Friday, June 4 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 708



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues
Re: Maximum ship-building output
Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff
re: Cities and Planets
Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors
RE: Guns in vacuum
RE: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues
Re: Maximum ship-building output
OT:  My Web Page Throught the Smurfalizer
MT Ship Design : Hulls
Re: Fw: I like missiles (longish)
A changing trend- Computer games to table top
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: A changing trend- Computer games to table top
Cybergoths - website update
Re: Maximum ship-building output
Re: Non-standard PSI talents
Re: Maximum ship-building output

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 10:25:10 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

Robert Prior wrote:
> 

> I was planning on converting those MacDraw files to GIF format, so that
> both formats could be included. Now I'm wondering if I should bother. If
> Dom, Bruce, Richard, Fred, myself, and the rest of the Traveller Macintosh
> community have to burn our own CD anyway, why should we share with the rest
> of you?

Cabal, Rob, I prefer Traveller Macintosh Cabal ;-) Seriously, the
burning of the hybrid CD only has to be done once, the CD duplication
cares not one tittle whether it's a ISO9660, Redrocks, Hybrid, Romeo or
Joliet CD, it only cares that it's a disk image. 

Unfortunately, what this does mean, given the lack of a hybrid HFS/ISO
program other than Toast on the Mac, is that the CD has to be built in
whole or part on a Mac. Worse, since the only ISO-9660 with redrocks
extension program I've been able to find is mkisofs, which _doesn't_ do
hybrid, <sigh> the actual dream of a universal data disk is still
restricted, pretty much to the lowest common denominator: ISO9660-I,
which is 8+3 ALL CAPS filenames.

Seriously, I don't have a problem with the format of images, so long as
their utility is preserved. The problem with converting vector formats
like MacDraw, or Pict to GIF is that you're converting it to a bitmap,
which loses the primary advantage of a vector file, which is it's
scalability.

What the world seriously lacks is an easy to use, portable _vector_
image format. There are WMF and the various program files on the Windows
side (which many Mac programs can open), Pict and the various program
files on the Mac side (which Quicktime and many PC programs can open),
and Postscript everywhere. 

While postscript is definitely not a low-end thing, the Ghostscript
suite of programs exists on: Mac, Amiga, Atari, Baskin-Robbins 31
flavors of Unix, OS/2, Win 3.11, Win95/8, Win NT, VMS, and probably
others I didn't see right off.

> This toleration business works both ways.

Rhat awn, bruvver!

Though, in fairness, I must mention a neat-o little shareware program I
found, checking out Ghostscript:

Mayura Draw, which will output Postscript (though _any_ PS printer
driver will do that, just print to a file) it is a $15 drawing program
for Win95/NT, quite nice looking. At http://www.mayura.com

I've been looking for a decent drawing program for my peecee at work for
quite a while, and it looks like this'll do.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 10:50:22 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output

Well, a class 'C' starport _can't_ build starships, so it's annual
output is zero.

TDRandall@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Does anyone here have an idea where I can find maximum ship size and total
> size output for various Starport/Tech Level combinations?
> 
> I can't seem to find anything about it in my MT Referee's Manual, but it just
> makes sense that a TL 10, C class starport wouldn't be able to keep up with a
> TL 15, A class starport.  And it also makes sense to me that both
> restrictions (TL10, C starport) should restrict the size of what even could
> be made in the first place.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 12:07:07 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> writes:

>> Depending on how the vehicle is designed, it could be either an expensive
>> one-way bus or could either be picked up or guided back to the launch ship
>> for re-use.
>
>This may be feasible.  However, AuricTech Shipyards' R&D budget does not
>currently allow for development of such radical missile-launching
>techniques.  Were we to receive an R&D contract, however.... ;-)

For 'bus that delivers short range high G missile in range of victim' read
'TARGET'.

You have just described a pilotless fighter which will die from lightspeed
lag on comms from the launch vehicle. Plus, it carries many of your weapons
in one big, expensive basket. If you take the missiles in range for a short
range attack you are almost certainly in range of missiles. Maybe a KKM
launch (loads of ballbearings) would be most effective, but I don't think
this is practicable.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 14:22:01 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Cities and Planets

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
I could go on about the folly of planning a city around vehicle roadways, but
that'll turn into a major OT rant real quickly...we have city managers
simultaneously talking about the need for elevated roadways and freeways
cutting across the city and on out the 30 miles to the suburbs that people
spend 7-8 hours a day sleeping in when they're not working or commuting, and
bemoaning how impersonal and disconnected everyone in the city is. Grrrr...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't think this is off-topic at all.

Take a planet that has been continuously occupied from TL 0 to TL 10.
High population, with population somewhat (though not entirely)
concentrated in urban centers.

Assume that one or more of the urban centers was painstaking planned
by the original colony officers, based on centuries of Imperial experience
with city planning. When this urban center was built, population was
small and concentrated, and there were few personal vehicles. The
few personal vehicles that existed were grav vehicles, and there was 
a limited transportation network based on large land vehicles. 

This "First Landing" city will be made up of closely-packed buildings,
connected by pedestrian routes, with rooftop and ground-level open
areas for grav vehicle landings. There will be a few vehicular land routes,
associated with industry and mass transit - these land routes will be more
like train tracks than roads, even though the vehicles on them will more
likely be large ATV's than trains. Trains will come later.

As population grew, people settle around this "First Landing" urban
center, with urban planning falling by the wayside - the colony planners
were men of long vision, the guy laying out a farm just outside the
city is more concerned with his next crop than he is with where the
streets will go a century from now. Transport is still large ATV, and
grav vehicle transport is becoming less common. People start using
local beasts of burden for personal transport and even some cargo
transport. As population grows, average tech level drops - from interstellar
tech at the colony base, to what can be locally supported away from
the colony base. Transportation will be what the colonists brought with
them, the few grav vehicles and ATV's they can buy while the colony
is struggling, and, more and more, what they can produce locally.
Soon enough, the average method of transport will be beasts of burden,
or feet.

This hinterland around First Landing will have roads, laid out as they
have been in every agrarian society Earth has ever seen - they will 
wind serpentine up hillsides (so "horses" can haul a wagon up the slope),
they will follow ridgelines and watercourses, they will need bridges.
Instead of the ruler-straight streets of a planned city, these areas will
have roads that bend and squiggle. When towns spring up in this
hinterland, they will be based on roads with funny angles. Any satellite
cities that grow here (or elsewhere on the planet, for that matter) should
have remarkably Terran similarities for street layouts.

In addition to these roads, there will be the main transport routes.
ATV's will ply these routes, picking up cargos at transfer points
in the hinterlands, much like railroads served towns on Earth. At some
point, the colony may lay rails on these main transport routes and
start running real railroads, freeing the ATV's for opening up unsettled
areas of the planet.

Slowly, as the colony's infrastructure grows, average tech level rises.
As the colony passes through tech level stages, they build roads,
highways, railroads - and then they have grav vehicles again, as common
transportation devices. They'll stop building new roads, but may maintain
and use the ones they have for slow, inexpensive transport.

What would the cities of this colony look like by now? Were the secondary
cities planned? If so, planned for what? There's quite a difference between
a city planned for grav traffic, a city planned for wheeled traffic, and a
city planned for foot traffic. 

I imagine attempts at city planning, both successes and failures,
can give a Traveller ref ideas. We've got a lot of cities on a lot of planets
to create, seeing how Terran cities did it (or failed to do it) can be useful.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 14:34:47 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

At 12:07 PM 6/4/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> writes:
>
>>> Depending on how the vehicle is designed, it could be either an expensive
>>> one-way bus or could either be picked up or guided back to the launch ship
>>> for re-use.
>>
>>This may be feasible.  However, AuricTech Shipyards' R&D budget does not
>>currently allow for development of such radical missile-launching
>>techniques.  Were we to receive an R&D contract, however.... ;-)
>
>For 'bus that delivers short range high G missile in range of victim' read
>'TARGET'.
>
>You have just described a pilotless fighter which will die from lightspeed
>lag on comms from the launch vehicle. Plus, it carries many of your weapons
>in one big, expensive basket. If you take the missiles in range for a short
>range attack you are almost certainly in range of missiles. Maybe a KKM
>launch (loads of ballbearings) would be most effective, but I don't think
>this is practicable.

This then, IMO, would also invalidate the entire concept of missiles.  If
the lag is so bad that a bus vehicle that travels at missile speeds can not
get the payload within decent range, and outside PD range, then the entire
missile concept is flawed.  

If you add rudimentry gunnery software that would go in a robot, you would
be able to lessen the impact the lag would have.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 15:01:19 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors

Leonard Erickson writes:
"*All* xray mirrors are what is called "grazing incidence 
mirrors". They can only reflect x-rays that hit them at a 
shallow angle. At steeper angles, the x-rays go thru. So 
they aren't practical for a missile coating."

	If we assume that *all* xray mirrors available at 
	TL10 are "grazing incidence mirrors," is it
	impossible to design missiles that have such
	mirrors deployed at a suitable angle (possibly
	unfolding after launch)?

	On another missile string, can 'mines' be launched
	that are stealth missiles which remain inactive until
	the target gets close? Such missiles could be 
	dangerous to vessels that do not have the luxery of
	completely random movements, such as the P****e ship
	chasing you (it's most efficient course is straight 
	for you). Most may never get activated, but maybe a 
	couple will have a chance to sprint for the target.
	Comments?

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 15:08:18 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Guns in vacuum

Antti Lahtinen writes:
<snipped>
"While most common projectile types (bullets) are spin- 
stabilized, some modern projectiles require atmospheric drag for 
stabilization (flechettes, air-rifled shotgun slugs). Therefore 
air-stabilized projectiles may be more inaccurate when fired in 
vacuum."
<snipped>

	Stabilization may be accomplished by atmospheric drag, but
	it is only necessary because of atmospheric drag. In a
	vacuum, there is no reason for a tumbling round to be any
	less accurate than a stable one (unless I am missing
	something important). The tumbling may affect the impact
	of the round, however.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 15:26:31 -0400
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
Subject: RE: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

Bruce Johnson wrote:
>Cabal, Rob, I prefer Traveller Macintosh Cabal ;-) Seriously, the
>burning of the hybrid CD only has to be done once, the CD duplication
>cares not one tittle whether it's a ISO9660, Redrocks, Hybrid, Romeo or
>Joliet CD, it only cares that it's a disk image.

Where do I apply to join the TMC? What is the initiation rite?

Seriously, I've been burning cross-platform CDs for a while now. I
believe we are better off with a Macbinary wrapper around the files with
resource forks. I would suggest that someone create html index files for
the content of the CD. That way everyone can see the files.

While creator types and custom icons are nice reasons to go hybrid, make
sure everything gets run though a name checker like 

http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/HyperArchive/Archive/disk/hybrid-filenam
e-checker-111.hqx

or

http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/HyperArchive/Archive/disk/name-cleaner-1
91.hqx

I always gussy up my CDs with custom icons, file types, window
placement...

I didn't do filename check once and ended up with a bunch of live music
mp3 CDs containing all those characters PCs hate <>?* because I wrote it
on a Mac using toast. It is common in setlists to show "song 1 > song 2
> song 1" to describe a tease within another song. Windows hated that.
It gave me some message like " You can't open the file because the file
cannot exist"

I don't know of a PC CD utility which can burn Toast image files. I
tried with the MKLINUX CD image and all of the PC tools ( even adaptec's
) failed.

The ideal situation would be to have a rewritable hybrid master which
could be customized and tested for each platform before duplication.

Glenn

______________________________________________________

Glenn E. Myers
ANSYS Inc.                Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (724) 514-2913
Canonsburg, PA 15317      Fax:   (724) 514-3118
______________________________________________________
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 15:22:51 -0400
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 1999 1:50 PM
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output


> Well, a class 'C' starport _can't_ build starships, so it's annual
> output is zero.

By that arguement Earth can't possibly have spacecraft, since no Class B
starport exists.  Someone should inform the crew of the Discovery that
they're not really in orbit!  The way I see it, a functional starship could
be produced as a special engineering project.  Cost and time would be
enormously increased, since all components would have to be special ordered
and assembled individually, but it could be done.  Rules are a guideline,
not a straitjacket.

John

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 14:31:17 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: OT:  My Web Page Throught the Smurfalizer

I ran my main page throught the Smurfalizer (SJG's Illuminated Site of
the Week), and got this as the link to my Traveller ship design page:

Smurfar ship designs (smurf Fire, Smurf, and Steel, Second Smurf)

Meanwhile, this line pretty well sums up my opinion of Micro$oft
Internet Explorer:

This page is designed by a Netscape user.  I can't vouch for how it
looks on Smurfen Explorer.

For those of you who, for whatever twisted reason, want to run a Web
sithe through the Smurfalizer, the URL is:

http://www.smurfalizer.com/

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 15:31:36 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: MT Ship Design : Hulls

Has anyone ever figured out the ratio of the hull volume (in Kl) to mass
(in metric tons) in the Megatraveller ship design sequence?

For that matter, how about the hull volume to price (in Mcr)?

Without a formula to find mass and price from volume, its always a table
lookup, which means you need to use exact values and values within the
parameters of the table.

Just trying not to reinvent the wheel.  If someone has the Excel formula(s)
itself, so much the better.

A similar means of finding the armor multiplier from the armor factor in MT
would also be nice.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 17:33:50 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Fw: I like missiles (longish)

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:
>> One last thing.  Canon missiles strike the turn they are fired, from any
>> range.  This, IMHO, indicates a massive delta-v with little endurance
>> (otherwise, they keep trying until they hit...).
>
>Which rules say that? CT has the missiles having to "chase" the ships.
>Missiles are explicitly stated to have the same vector as the ship they
>are launched from. And then they finally released the errata that said
>what acceleration and endurance the missiles had (turned out to be
>measured in g-turns).
>
>Ditto for Mayday.

Mayday 1980 Series 120 Boxed set release

p8, Ordnance Launch, Standard Missiles

"Unless otherwise stated, the standard missile is assumed to have 6G6
limited acceleration, a homing guidance system, and contact detonation.
Such a missile would cost Cr5,600. Details of costs and assemblies of
missiles is included in the special rules section..."

'Contact'  detonates when it contacts any other present position counter.
Differs from 'Proximity' in that it is vulnerable to anti-missile fire,
Proximity isn't.

Note - if Homing must move 1 hex 300k km towards target, and must burn
*full* burn unless propulsion is discretionary.

p12, section E, Building Missiles

.."Maximum G Level alowable is 6G, and the maximum burns for a single
missile is 12."

Hence a missile in CT Terms could produce 12 turns of 6G acceleration, maximum.

(all this (c), (r) FarFuture Enterprises 1977 to 1999)

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 15:48:54 -0400
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
Subject: A changing trend- Computer games to table top

Hi all,

I noticed the following and it made me wonder if wargaming 
isn't making a comeback.

http://www.bungie.com/corporate/press/gurps_myth.html

Quick summary: SJG is creating a table top version of 
Bungie's Myth & Myth II. I wonder what this says about 
the trends in gaming?

Glenn
______________________________________________________

Glenn E. Myers
ANSYS Inc.                Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (724) 514-2913
Canonsburg, PA 15317      Fax:   (724) 514-3118
______________________________________________________
 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 12:57:44 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

Mark Cook wrote:
> 
> Keven Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
> 

> I'm not sure what prompts you to say this, Keven, but it's wrong.
> No modern commercial powder (and virtually no military powders)
> contain an oxidizer (not oxydant) as an integral part of their
> composition.

Hmmmm....

black powder= Potassium Nitrate + sulfur + carbon: full system there.
smokeless (original style at least, I'm not sure about the composition)
= nitrocellulose plus inert binder, IIRC. again, a complete mixture,
(dunno if there's sulfur in the smokeless mixture)

In both cases the nitrate serves as the oxidizer, the carbon (either
charcoal, or cellulose) serves as the fuel.

The sulfur is necessary, but it's been quite a while since I dredged up
my memory the chemical reactions involved, so I can't remember right
now.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 16:00:38 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: A changing trend- Computer games to table top

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
> Quick summary: SJG is creating a table top version of
> Bungie's Myth & Myth II. I wonder what this says about
> the trends in gaming?

Add that to their remake of Triplanetary and you have a regular table-top
revival :-)


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
http://www.downport.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 21:01:15 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Cybergoths - website update

Hi all,

http://www.cybergoths.u-net.com/ has been updated again - it was a bug fix
this time. Previously, all Rob's MacOS software was not linked correctly,
as I had a relative URL and the base page was moved.

Try it and see -

MegaCharacter Stack - all the MT character classes and more in a Hypercard
generator

Also, MegaMercenary and more of Rob Prior's excellent software...


Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 13:09:11 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output

johannes wrote:
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> Sent: Friday, June 04, 1999 1:50 PM
> Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output
> 
> > Well, a class 'C' starport _can't_ build starships, so it's annual
> > output is zero.
> 
> By that arguement Earth can't possibly have spacecraft, since no Class B
> starport exists. 

There is a distinct diffeence in the rules regarding _star_ships versus
_space_ships. Earth does not yet have _any_ starport, as we have yet to
see _any_ starships.

We have some experimental TL-7/8 _space_ports, yes, and rudimentary
quasi-commercial _space_ports (Ariane space, that Boeing sea-launch
platform) and the ability to make some spacecraft components. Unless
you're sitting on some discovery I don't know about yet, and are just
teasing us terrans on the TML ;-) we don't have the ability to build
starship compnents at all, simply because we don't know what goes _into_
one yet.

True, the rules are a guideline, not a straightjacket, but the point is,
a class C port that can build starships isn't a class C port, but an A
or B one. the Definition of a class A port is a starport capable of
building starships from scratch; a class B is one capable of doing all
but jump drives, but given a supply of components can assemble
starships, a class C can refuel and do some repairs. If you can build
one, you're not a class C.

Notice, NOWHERE do the rules state how fast, or how many such ships you
can build in a given starport.

Glisten's Ling shipyards, and Harry's Custom Starship Yards may both
classify as Class A starports, but the Ling facility can build systems
of unlimited size, and can make dozens in a year, while Harry's, though
an excellent yard, is a custom shop, they make maybe one or two a year,
up to 500 tons, probably highly customized yachts for a select group of
customers.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 99 14:54:05 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Non-standard PSI talents

On 06/02/99 at 09:24 PM,  "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net> said:

>There was a set of 50's or 60's era stories about a fellow named Gill
>who was a pecuilar form of telekink.  It manifested itself as a
>phantom third arm.  He could do anything with it a real arm could do
>and a bit more.

Oh YES! Gill Hamilton of the ARM. Larry Nivin is the author.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 15:32:03 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output

johannes wrote:
> 
<<snip header>>
> 
> > Well, a class 'C' starport _can't_ build starships, so it's annual
> > output is zero.
> 
> By that arguement Earth can't possibly have spacecraft, since no Class B
> starport exists.  Someone should inform the crew of the Discovery that
> they're not really in orbit!  

A couple of ways of looking at this:

1.  Currently, Earth does not possess a Class B starport.  After all,
Discovery
_isn't_ a non-starship in the Traveller sense.  It is "a spacecraft of
marginal performance characteristics", scarcely better (compared to
Traveller starships and non-starships) than King David's Spaceship, from
which that description was lifted.

2.  Currently, Earth _does_ possess a Class B starport, as demonstrated
by the construction and launch of the previously-mentioned Discovery and
her sisters.  However, the non-starships built at TL-8 are, shall we
say, less capable than those commonly found in Traveller.

> The way I see it, a functional starship could be produced as a special
> engineering project.  Cost and time would be enormously increased, since all
> components would have to be special ordered and assembled individually, but it
> could be done.  Rules are a guideline, not a straitjacket.

This seems to describe the development of the first Terran jump ships.

However, none of this helps to answer the original question.  Let's
assume, instead, that the TL-10 starport asked about _is_ a Class A
starport.  One example would be Fosey, in the Mora subsector.  Fosey is
TL-10, with a Class A starport, and has a population of 6 million. 
Mora, on the other hand, is TL-15, also with a Class A starport, and has
a population of 10 billion (figures from Classic Era, Galactic 2.4). 
What would be the relative production capacity of the two starports?  

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #708
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Friday, June 4 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 709



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Maximum ship-building output - try #2
Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff
RE: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: Maximum ship-building output
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Maximum ship-building output
Re: GT/GV2 questions
RE: Guns in vacuum
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: Maximum ship-building output - try #2
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: Non-standard PSI talents
Starport Shipbuilding Capacities
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: I like missiles
Re: I like missiles
Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Currency...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 16:39:55 EDT
From: TDRandall@aol.com
Subject: Maximum ship-building output - try #2

>> Well, a class 'C' starport _can't_ build starships, so it's annual
output is zero.

Fine, I made a poor choice of ratings in asking my question.  Thanks for 
making my one delurk after years of not playing the game and wanting to get 
back into it so enjoyable.  But you didn't help to answer the underlying 
question.

If you have two class A starports, one at tech level 11 and one at tech level 
15, shouldn't the second be able to outperform the first in more than just 
"zippier" ships?  I realize the second could cram more into the same amount 
of tonnage based on later TL shrinkage of fueld requirements, etc.  But do 
both produce the same number of "tons" per unit of time?  What would that 
value be?

And shouldn't a TL 15 B starport still be able to outperform a TL 11 A 
starport in some pretty significant ways?  I realize smaller ships that can 
jump farther is impressive, but what about other 'production quantities'?

Maybe it should be based more on some other "production capability" of the 
planet itself?  Then, how might these naval bases that orbit a pretty 
lifeless moon be counted?

If there's nothing canon, I'd appreciate some rules of thumb that someone 
might have found workable.  I have no idea where to begin.

Tony

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 00:52:46 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

Fri, 4 Jun 1999 01:32:18 +0200 (MET DST), Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>

>>It isn't clear at all the a missile with reationless thrusters is
>>going to have exhuast.  It also isn't clear if the exhaust can't
>>be cooled and the heat radiate seeratately.  It might be an issue
>>to explore, but I don't see it as a basis for a firm statement about
>>missile detectability.

>The problem is that according to the rules one can't have a thrusterplate in a
>missile, right?

I've never heard that.

(In GT, they do, in fact, use reactionless thrusters.  Thought GT
hasn't, and I don't think will, commit itself to specific design
of how they work).

>>The amount radiated depends on surface area and also on temperature.
>>This also assumes passive blackbody radiation, one has to speculate
>>how one might be able to more actively radiate waste heat at
>>higher TL's.

>Yes, but you still need som type of radiator and this has to be pointing away
>from the direction of travel of the missile. This gives you a very limited
>amount of space as the missile also needs surfaces for electronics, like laser
>comms, sensors and so on.

There are a bunch of ways to do this.  One obvious way is to
have the front of the missile, a pod that sticks out, etc.
covered with sensors and the back covered with radiators.  After
all, if the radiators need to point away from the foe and the
sensors point toward the foe, there isn't much need to put them
on the same surface.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 16:55:26 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: RE: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

At 03:26 PM 6/4/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>Cabal, Rob, I prefer Traveller Macintosh Cabal ;-) Seriously, the
>>burning of the hybrid CD only has to be done once, the CD
duplication
>>cares not one tittle whether it's a ISO9660, Redrocks, Hybrid,
Romeo or
>>Joliet CD, it only cares that it's a disk image.
>
>Where do I apply to join the TMC? What is the initiation rite?
>
>Seriously, I've been burning cross-platform CDs for a while now. I
>believe we are better off with a Macbinary wrapper around the files
with
>resource forks. I would suggest that someone create html index files
for
>the content of the CD. That way everyone can see the files.

	As long as you stick to 8.3 ... again, Chairman Bill despises useful
standards such as the Rockridge extensions for long filenames, and
those of us whose nuggets he holds in cold storage in Redmond can't
read those extensions ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 17:09:00 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

In a message dated 6/4/99 2:01:01 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
electric-stitch@w-link.net writes:

<< Specifically, can a
 rifle or other "gunpowder" weapons be fired in a vacuum?  >>
I believe they can as the powder has oxidizers in it( it *is* sealed in the 
casing, after all)...The advantage of using "slug throwers" in vacuum is that 
its muzzle velosity is also its terminal velosity....
BobS...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 14:16:01 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output

Black ICE wrote:
> 

> However, none of this helps to answer the original question.  Let's
> assume, instead, that the TL-10 starport asked about _is_ a Class A
> starport.  One example would be Fosey, in the Mora subsector.  Fosey is
> TL-10, with a Class A starport, and has a population of 6 million.
> Mora, on the other hand, is TL-15, also with a Class A starport, and has
> a population of 10 billion (figures from Classic Era, Galactic 2.4).
> What would be the relative production capacity of the two starports?

Damn hard to answer, generically or individually...Mora certainly
handles more shipping in a year, but if Fosey is built around that
starport and the main business on planet is the Fosey Golden Lotus Lucky
Starship Company Ltd., they might make a lot more starships than you
might think given the disparity of populations and tech levels.

Off the cuff, of course more ships are built at Mora than at Fosey, but
without any acillary economic data, you stuck with rather general
qualitative descriptions rather than quantitative.

Simple answer..."Sorry Charlie, there's insufficient data on that."

Unfortunately, I don't know how to estimate these numbers either (not
having Free Trader or Pocket Empires, the only supplements that I can
think of that might include ways of determining such figures. Sorry
Trillion Credit Squadron doesn't count, as that's exclusively
wartime-footing military production only)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 17:11:24 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

In a message dated 6/4/99 6:40:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
les_howie@hotmail.com writes:

<<  The point they suggested to keep in mind is that a weapon 
 designed for use in atmosphere would be prone to vacuuum welding, and so be 
 very likely to missfire or to jam permanently. >>
All you have to do is use a lube designed for vacuum...
BobS

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 17:18:22 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

In a message dated 6/4/99 11:13:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
healyzh@aracnet.com writes:

<< 
 BTW, this is from a book on guns I read in the early 80's so I might be 
 remembering some details wrong.
  >>
The Dorsai have been using 'Cone' guns for years...
BobS...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 17:22:08 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

Zane wrote:

You might
>want to see what information you can find on a 'GyroJet' Pistol (I believe
>that is the correct name), I'm pretty sure it was designed in the 60's with
>a limited number made.  Each bullet is actually a miniature rocket.
>
>BTW, this is from a book on guns I read in the early 80's so I might be
>remembering some details wrong.


You are right about the weapon but I don't know if the name you gave it is
completely correct.  I have a friend who is a cartridge collector and he had
a cartridge in his collection.  It was really strange as it was shaped in
cross section like a wankel.  That is to say like an equilateral triangle
with rounded corners.  He said that it was very inaccurate but would scare
the hell out of anyone who had one coming their way.  It was like some sort
of Congreves rocket in miniature.   The round was spin stabilized by the
rocket exhaust upon firing.  The pistol was used in one of the Bond books.
Didn't the original Traveller set have a similar "rocket gun"?  If I
remember correctly it was a shoulder fired long gun which launched the
projectile with very little recoil and then the rocket motor fired up.  The
tables as I recall indicated it to be rather inaccurate as well.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 15:41:33 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

>>>>
Over the *millenia* that civilization has been around, what can be
supported at a given TL has been pushed to the limit. That is, for a
given set of factories & tooling, the "improvements" were thought of
*somewhere* centuries ago. If you *do* come up with a new trick, it'll
be both a rare thing, and likely an incremental improvement. 

So for all TLs up to "common interstellar", the IDP lists things that
have been "tinkered with" for *centuries*. Which means that there
*can't* be the sort of innovation you are thinking of. It's *already*
been done, usually long, long ago. 

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>>>>
Sounds like the galactic Library from David Brin's Startide Rising
series.  In fact, in that series the novel Sundiver had the high tech
aliens that were brought up using the stuff in the Library snubbing
their noses (or whatever) at the wolfling Humans who insisted on using
some homegrown stuff in their exploration craft.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 15:48:13 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output

> Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 09:46:55 EDT
> From: TDRandall@aol.com
> Subject: Maximum ship-building output
> 
> Does anyone here have an idea where I can find maximum ship size and
total 
> size output for various Starport/Tech Level combinations?

Supplement 5: Trillion Credit Squadron, under the Campaign rules.

Shipyard capacity in dtons is Population/1000*Government Modifier. The
Government Modifier measures (generally) how authoritarian and aggressive a
world is, based on government type; the average is about 1 in peacetime,
and 1.2 in war.  Output is capacity divided by build time, which was given
in High Guard.

> I can't seem to find anything about it in my MT Referee's Manual, but it
just 
> makes sense that a TL 10, C class starport wouldn't be able to keep up
with a 
> TL 15, A class starport.  And it also makes sense to me that both 
> restrictions (TL10, C starport) should restrict the size of what even
could 
> be made in the first place.

Class C starports have *no* construction facilities. Class B starports can
only construct non-starships. Class A starports can build both starships
and non-starships. No port can build a ship at a tech level higher than its
own.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 16:23:34 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: GT/GV2 questions

> Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 11:57:46 -0600
> From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
> Subject: GT/GV2 questions
> 
> Couple of questions for building things for GURPS Traveller using GURPS
> Vehicles 2nd ed.:
> 
> How are meson screens built?

Seems to be a force screen (p. VE93), but it cost, weight, and power
requirement are less than 1/10 listed value, the screen only works against
mesons, and it does not overload.

> How are nuclear dampers built? GV2 lists them as GTL 15 (!) devices.

Check out p. GT51 sidebar.

> In my version of GV2, N-PAWs have a vacuum range modifier of x15, but GT
> insinuates that the range mod. should be x50. Is the latter correct?

If you're using the first printing of the second edition, the errata say:

http://www.sjgames.com/errata/gurps/vehicles_2e.html

"In Maximum Range, under 1/2D and Max Ranges in Vacuum move the entry for
neutral particle beam from the "× 10 if..." listing to the "× 50 if ..."
listings, so that it follows rainbow laser rather than flamer."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 15:44:14 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: RE: Guns in vacuum

>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>Subject: RE: Guns in vacuum
.
>	Stabilization may be accomplished by atmospheric drag, but
>	it is only necessary because of atmospheric drag. In a
>	vacuum, there is no reason for a tumbling round to be any
>	less accurate than a stable one (unless I am missing
>	something important). The tumbling may affect the impact
>	of the round, however.

  I believe that they're referring to the fact that not all rounds come
out of the launcher stabilized with respect to the axis of the barrel
itself; lack of atmosphere prevents the design features to correct this
from taking effect.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 18:51:33 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

Yes, Gyrojet ammo DID exist, I read about it in an older issue of
"Shooter's Bible".
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Dimension/5823/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 15:51:18 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output - try #2

TDRandall@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> If you have two class A starports, one at tech level 11 and one at tech level
> 15, shouldn't the second be able to outperform the first in more than just
> "zippier" ships?  I realize the second could cram more into the same amount
> of tonnage based on later TL shrinkage of fueld requirements, etc.  But do
> both produce the same number of "tons" per unit of time?  What would that
> value be?
> 
> And shouldn't a TL 15 B starport still be able to outperform a TL 11 A
> starport in some pretty significant ways?  I realize smaller ships that can
> jump farther is impressive, but what about other 'production quantities'?

It is really hard to tell. A simple difference in tech levels won't
affect the _number_ of ships you can build in a year nearly as much as
how big the yards are.

> If there's nothing canon, I'd appreciate some rules of thumb that someone
> might have found workable.  I have no idea where to begin.
>

Well, mostly, the problem is that you've hit one of the _hard_ problems
of Traveller, specifically econometric modelling of the Traveller
Universe.

There are some easy rules of thumb: A higher TL shipyard of a given size
will produce a ship faster than a comparably sized yard of a lower TL,
_when_ producing ships of their main production line, and not custom
jobbies: ie a TL-15 yard will produce a TL-15 Beowulf faster that a
TL-11 one will produce a TL-11 Beowulf. This is due to differences in
automation, mainly.

Off the top of my head, were I forced to estimate in a gaming situation,
I'd say it would be a variable of 10-15% time gain per TL (or two). So
the Mora (TL-15 yard) will produce that one in 3 months, and the Fosey
(TL11) one will do it in 6-9 months. The Fosey yard will require more
people to build, and by a strict interpretation of the rules, the two
ships will cost the same (which is, of course, absurd).

Now, look at producing at a lower TL than the max you can produce, say
the Mora yards decide to make TL-13 ships for sale to the outlying
regions, or TL-11 ones for the absolute boonies. Well, they'll likely
NOT get more of an advantage in time savings, since they're not changing
their automation any, but the ships _will_ be, per the rules, cheaper. 

What this means, in the overall picture, is that unless the Fosey yards
are getting some gigunda subsidies from somewhere, they'll go broke
faster than MC Hammer.

This is why it's hard to figure this out. Generally a great deal of the
economic activity that is depicted in the OTU has no business existing.
(such as TL-11 starship yards on pop 6 planets in the same subsector as
TL15 ones on pop A planets...it's _so_ much cheaper to buy your TL11
starship in the TL15 system)

Comparing type B yards vs Type A, it gets a little more dicey. Those
yards on the Type B yards have to import their jump drives from
somewhere, which _has_ to be more expensive than making your own, in the
main. 

But they'll have the advantage of greater automation, so I would guess
they get about half the time advantage of a comparable Type A yard, so
our TL15 B yard will still make that beowulf faster than our TL11 Type A
yard, but I don't think they'll get nearly as much of a price break,
either. 

Again, forced to off the top of my head, I'd allow about half the
pricing differential that a Type A yard gets making things at lower
TL's. All _big-time_ MHO, and should any of the _real_ TML economics
types wish to jump in now, please do!

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 19:08:51 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

In a message dated 99-06-04 09:03:13 EDT, you write:

<< Vacuum welding happens especially when 
 	smooth pieces of the same metal are jammed against each other 
 	during recoil. This problem can be solved by using suitable 
 	materials and surface finishes, and using suitable lubricants 
 	which do not evaporate in vacuum. >>

what about revolvers? Would the forcing cone vacuum weld to the front of the 
cylinder?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 16:21:12 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

Not likely, since the force of recoil actually drives the cylinder away
from the cone.

Sethkimmel@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 99-06-04 09:03:13 EDT, you write:
> 
> << Vacuum welding happens especially when
>         smooth pieces of the same metal are jammed against each other
>         during recoil. This problem can be solved by using suitable
>         materials and surface finishes, and using suitable lubricants
>         which do not evaporate in vacuum. >>
> 
> what about revolvers? Would the forcing cone vacuum weld to the front of the
> cylinder?

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 17:23:13 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Non-standard PSI talents

>>>> (begin quoted material)
Are there any other talents out there?

Peez
>>>>

>>>>
I always tended to run the Psi skills similar to the way they were
presented in May's Pliocene Epoch and Galactic Mileu series.  Add
D-Jump
for teleport and you have a fairly hefty stable of powers.

Kurt Feltenberger
>>>> (end quoted material)
Another couple of series to check out is the Alvin Maker series by
Orson Scott Card, and the Xanth series by Piers Anthony (though the
latter is really _magic_ talents rather than psionic).
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 18:28:09 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Starport Shipbuilding Capacities

ISTR that someone had posted expanded starport rules on his/her/its Web
site, which included shipyard size and capacity.  Could someone post the
URL, if this information exists?

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 21:51:39 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

>From: will richards <willrichards@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Fighter stuff
>
>With regards to shooting a laser at a manuvering missle.
>  Have any of you considered that the ship the laser is on
>is also manuvering for fear of the meson guns and enemy lasers?
>wouldn't this greatly complicate the targeting solutions?

Not really. What you do is have a future set of random maneuvers plotted,
and each of the computers has an updated list of the 'expected conditions'
for the next 10 seconds or so.

>
>Also for stand off capability for the attacking missle, why not use a mass 
>driver or a CPR gun mounted in the missle to deliver a Kinetic projectile(s) 
>that the missle can aim at the target and even lead the target if it needs 
>to?

You still dont get the range. You might add 10 km/sec to the missile's net
velocity. Either use a laser and plan on engaging at 1000 km plus, or
invest the mass you were planning to spend on the gun on a bigger maneuver
drive.

>
>Spinal Mounts for a missles! ;)

Thought of, initial numbers done, and rejected on grounds of
cost-effectivness (yup. A first for Ditzie).

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 21:45:43 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: I like missiles

>From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
>Subject: Fw: Fw: I like missiles
>
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org>

>>I'm sorry for asking what may seem like a dumb question, but I missed the
>>first part of the thread.
>>
>>Instead of using PDLs, why can't the defending ship fire some sort of
>>flechette shotgun round into the probable path of the missile? Even if it
>>is a contact det-laser  missile, the warhead is unlikely to be pointed at
>>the ship if it goes off early.
>>
>
>For the same reason you can't realistically use ballistic weapons vs.
>spaceships themselves

Ahh, but you can use short-ranged buckets of ball bearings or chemically
pumped laser missiles against anti-ship missiles, because Missiles Dont
Shoot Back.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 22:22:43 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: I like missiles

>From: "Damien Fox" <phocks@goodnet.com>
>Subject: Fw: I like missiles
>
>Remember, this a handwave...
>I just assume that it's easier to hit a target with a max delta-V of 6G,
>that is MUCH larger, in every dimension, and that is arguably more
>vulnerable to the laser in the first place.  Also, anti-ship lasers (as
>opposed to PDL) are larger and presumably have a lower ROF.  Unless my
>assumptions are totally incorrect (not unlikely) a high-pulse PDL will be
>chemically pumped and therefor will vibrate like mad.  True, you might not
>be able to see it with a naked eye, but at 2,000 km against a 10cm target,
>well... A larger weaopn with lower ROF can presumably be dampened more
>effectively.

First of all, the missile will presumably be jinking and such, so it wont
be nose on most of the time, so it's effective radius will be larger than
the nose (me, I build missiles as armoured spheres - did you see the Famile
Spofulam TL13 Anti Ship Missile/Customs Cutter ?).

Secondly, Famile Spofulam builds it's point defense lasers as standard grav
focussed ROF 1 shot per 2.5 seconds and 200 MJ and up lasers, as
thruster-plate missiles are very big and can work - if the enemy doesnt
have enough crunch power to chew through several centimeters of superdense
(*points to the 49 MJ 'point defense' lasers on Gridlore ships*). Yeah,
yeah, yeah, 650 MJ is stretching the definition of 'point defense', but at
that size the accumulator is so big you might as well take the bigger
rapid-fire lasing mechanism.

>>>    b. Computation/aiming  time.
>Oh, agreed, "sensor drones" are sadly lacking in the OTU, 2300 shows up some
>good tactics with these. 

It's what I've always assumed the fighter wings were for - active sensors
with flying spares.

> As for 1000 km, I expect that against very small
>targets, the "footprint" of the laser will be too large to be deadly, mainly
>because of vibration-induced spreading, but also at that range, active
>jamming would make a target solution difficult. Now, at 100km, not much of a
>problem, unless there are a *LOT* of missiles.

The other issue to consider is nukes in a defensive role - we send out a
bunch of nuke armed countermissiles, blowing them off to scratch any nice
shiny coatings, fry any cheap electronics and most of all force the missile
wave to spread out so our PD lasers can engage them a few at a time.

>>
>>We dont neccessarily need multi-switching LADARs. I dont know about anyone
>>else, but my standard Signature barbette has it's own LADAR.
>
>The problem with this is that the LADAR then needs to re-aquire each
>individual target.  At this point, the PDL can only engage as fast as it can
>aquire.  Since, presumably you will wish to ensure target nuetralization
>before switching targets, this might be a really big governor on target
>servicing speed.

At engagement ranges the missiles are presumably coming from a small arc of
space - probably less than one degree. I dont believe this would be too
much of a problem.

>>
>>How many gees does it have to be pulling to evade 22 cm at 1000 km (0.03
>>light seconds) ?
>
>I was using someone else's (incorrect) numbers.  In actuality, a missile
>pulling 50Gs would be able to displace 245m/sec from predicted flight path.
>This is 14.7m, vastly more than the highest ROF laser can cover (That's over
>678 M^2)  Now, in practice, a missile won't be able to manuever exactly
>perpendicular to the direction of thrust, but even given 10% thrust to the
>perpendicular, this should be enough to restrict useful PDL to point-blank
>range.

Please build us a 50G missile under any set of Trav design rules :) Ditzie
is filling out an order for a thousand ...

I certainly dont believe that you can make them with a 10 cm diameter,
especially with any sort of commo or sensor gear.

>>20 shots will be 50 seconds with a Signature class. How many km per second
>>are these missiles going again ?
>>
>
>No, those 20 shots need to arrive AT THE SAME TIME. 

No they dont. If each shot has a 5% chance of a hit, then the odds are
enough PD batteries will get lucky early on to switch fire to help out the
unluckier batteries.


>>>    d. Decoys.  The acceleration test shouldn't work.  My missile releases
>
>Agreed  I guess you could just dispense with the decoys, and have the
>missile turn into a cloud of flechettes at 100 km or so- something will hit
>if the cloud is big enough.
>
>Thinking about it, why even bother with a warhead? 

Completely agreed. If you are going to go for a contact missile, use the
Redneck Arms concept of the bucket full of Superdense ball bearings.

Have I said how much I like this concept for counter-missile missiles ?

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 19:12:55 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Fighter stuff

Ian or Katts wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> >Spinal Mounts for a missles! ;)
> 
> Thought of, initial numbers done, and rejected on grounds of
> cost-effectivness (yup. A first for Ditzie).

Sounds like a project for AuricTech.... ;-)

I'll get on it this week or next.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 10:23:58 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Currency...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Friday, 4 June 1999 2:13
Subject: Re: Currency


>The Roc wrote:
>
>> Paper money or polymers?  Folding money I suppose, similar to Australia's
>> "plastic money" (polymer bank notes), a different process to the "shaved
>> block" the Imperium uses.  Anyway, I imagine the Credit "note" is
"barcoded"
>> (or equivalent) so the cash can be traced from withdrawal point to the
next
>> deposit point?
>
>Why on earth (or any of the _other_ 13,000 worlds) would the Imperium
>_care_ where and how you spend your money? Do you know the absurd mass
>of useless information that would produce?
>
>Some draconian law level worlds might do so, but it's highly unlikely
>that the Imperium
>would care...they get their power from the free flow of credits, not
>tracking them.
>
>Imperial taxes are low enough so as not to make them worth evading; more
>than likely, many world's Imperial tax allotments are taken as part of
>the berthing fees at the starports, and other such use fees rather than
>direct taxation of commerce or the population at large.
>
>As I said, the individual worlds may have taxes of their own, perhaps
>quite high taxes, and may rigorously tax all such cash transactions.
>More likely, though, cash will be
>illegal on such worlds, amd trackable money cards will be used instead.
>
>

Tax avoidance is the only reason to track money?  Governments could have all
sorts of reasons to track the flow of money, not to mention their secret
services own nefarious reasons.

The scenario in the "Big Brother" Doco (damn I wish I could remember which
country is/was using the barcoded notes -- anyone?) was a simple invasion of
privacy by the government.  Mr Average just wants to drop out (for whatever
reason it was), he takes money out of a bank in his home town, travels
somewhere, spends it and when the shop does it's end of day banking, the
cash from home, withdrawn from his account, identifies him as buying certain
goods (say it was a sports store?), then he goes further on and spends more
of the cash, and it repeats, etc., etc.

In Traveller, perhaps something illegal is afoot and an inordinate amount of
ICr's are turning up in System X from System K and there is no reason for
this to happen?  The powers that be would certainly like to know what's
going on, even if they only inform the local governments so they can check
it out... I don't know, why close your mind to ideas (for plot devices?),
use your imagination!

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #709
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 5 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 710



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)
Re: Cities and planets
Re: Cities and planets
Frozen watch
Unusual pistols and their ammunition
Re: Currency
Missile Defenses
Re: Frozen watch
Re: Currency
Re: Frozen watch
Re: Missile Defenses
Re: Guns in vacuum
Gen Con
Re: Frozen watch
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: Guns in vacuum 
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: Maximum ship-building output
Re: Grounding a starship
Re: Grounding a starship
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues
Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)
Re: Shipping costs recap
Re: A Plea for Cinema Restraint
Re: Grounding a starship
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 07:47:52
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: "Traveller"-like Movies (was Re: A plea for cinema restraint)

At 06:26 PM 6/3/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>I just realized that no one has said anything about "Outland" also known as
>"Shoot Out at the Io Corral."  It is neither a Merc or Merchant story but
>more of a Who Done It.  Any opinions?

Outland is more "High Noon on Io" than anything else.  The lone lawman
making a stand for justice in a town gone bad.

The movie is good for stealing visuals and ideas from, but fairly
ridiculous.  It also suffers from the exploding people in vacuum syndrome.

- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 07:51:28
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Cities and planets

At 02:24 AM 6/4/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 99-06-03 14:10:28 EDT, you write:

>Okay, and the city placement?  

there were never rules for actually mapping worlds.  On a habitile world,
huiman cities will be close to a source of water.

*Plug* Terralogicus does all these things for you, and is a generally
useful program.  You start with a world map and can scale down to a few
meters per hex.

http://www.logicrucible.com/
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 20:13:21 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Re: Cities and planets

Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> sez,

>In fact the only
>city I can think of otherwise, is the capital of Brazil, Sao Paolo, which is
>an extensively 'planned' city.

You mean Brasilia, but otherwise your comments are dead on the money.
Brasilia is considered one of the worst capital cities in the world to live
in, because of its absurd over-reliance on the automobile, because the
planners had a pathetically poor understanding of urban social dynamics,
and because it wasn't designed to grow and evolve organically -- as all
cities do.

>obTRav:The invention of cheap, affordable antigrav: Boon or Bane? It allows
>people hitherto unknown freedom of building and living where they please, thus
>allowing them to be isolated even more from each other. What are the
>sociological consequences of everyone wanting to have a fantasy home built on
>unreachable, save for air-raft homes in the crags of the Rockies?

I happen to have written an article on this very topic, but still haven't
got around to finishing and posting it somewhere. I'm currently working on
a website of my own, and will be putting it up there (it's too long to post
here). I'll let you know when it's up.

Best,

 + GMG +

          Glenn Grant
         neo@total.net
    "Hell is Other Robots."
- - Robot Hell Brochure, Futurama

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 17:39:06 PDT
From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Frozen watch

I don't know if this has been addressed or where...but what's the purpose of 
the frozen watch on a large starship? Just curious...Now back to your 
regularly scheduled thread already in progress :)

TIA

Mike


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 19:44:40 -0500
From: "Todd A. Zircher" <zirto@indepth.com>
Subject: Unusual pistols and their ammunition

Daniel Phelps writes:
>
> I have a friend who is a cartridge collector and he had
> a cartridge in his collection.  It was really strange
> as it was shaped in cross section like a wankel.  That
> is to say like an equilateral triangle with rounded 
> corners.

That sounds very very much like a tround from a Dardick.

See "US Handgun Design Failures" by David A. Tomlinson
at http://www.nfa.ca/bulletins/May_1997/NA19MAYe.html
for info on this high capacity revolver and (the
unrelated) gyrojet pistol.

[How's that for one stop shopping?]

ObTrav?  Laser guidance coupled with vectored thrust 
         could radically change the performance of the
         gyrojet pistol.
- --
TAZ

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 10:56:07 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Currency

- -----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Vickers <redroach@flex.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Friday, 4 June 1999 5:55
Subject: Re: Currency


>Watched a great show about the new money.
>A lot of designs and new tech were tried, but it boiled down to two things
>1)Bills had to feel like the old money  2) Bills had to survive the
>consumers.
>Any new tech that violated one of those two guidelines got trashed.
>Apparently most counterfeit bills are detected by touch/feel.  You should
>have seen the machine they have to mangle bills.  Things like the fancy
>holograms and foil got thrown out early, the mangler showed that they
>stopped being effective REAL fast.
>Probably what happened to bar codes, even though the show didn't mention
>them.  They more than likely got too mangled to be of any use.
>
>TV
>

Australia uses polymer money that is supposedly counterfeit-proof (and I
haven't heard of anything on the news about it being done).  It is very
colourful to a degree, but even our paper money was coloured by
denomination.  However, it feels nothing like paper money, the early notes
($5.00 were the first plastics) could have the print rubbed off with your
fingers or washed off if left in your pocket in the wash!  These had been
fixed by the time they released the $10.00 notes.  What they never fixed
though, was that when folded, the newer the minting, the more "springy" the
notes are, and they sometimes have a tendency to "spring" out of the till or
from your hands!

ObTrav:  How "foldable" is Imperial credits?  Is the polymer they use as
plyable as paper or springy like plastics?  It's a pain when the notes
sometimes jumps out of your pocket by themselves!

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 21:21:51 -0400
From: "Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com>
Subject: Missile Defenses

The Soviets came up with an innovative idea during the 80's I believe it
was..
They mounted a missile sensor suite on the tops of their tanks, linked to
explosive plates affixed to the tanks' armor.  When the sensor suite
detected an incoming missile, it automatically fired the appropriate
explosive plate when the missile was in range.  The explosive plate's
detonation sent a cloud of pellets or other fragmentation at the missile,
causing the warhead to misfire in some way if the missile wasn't destroyed
outright.  The missile's body in many cases still struck the tank, but the
warhead and sensors were destroyed and the tank's armor was easily strong
enough to withstand the missile's kinetic energy.

ObTrav: A ship sized system could be used to defend against missiles.
Instead of explosive plates, a reloadable array of  shotgun  type devices
could be deployed around the ship (normally stowed on the in hull surface
compartments, the captain needs only to hit a button to have them extend in
times of danger)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 20:23:21 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Frozen watch

Michael McKeown wrote:
> 
> I don't know if this has been addressed or where...but what's the purpose of
> the frozen watch on a large starship? Just curious...Now back to your
> regularly scheduled thread already in progress :)

From _High Guard_, 2d edition, page 33:

  _The Frozen Watch_:  ...Replacement personnel are kept available in
low berths for continuous replacement of casualties and battle losses;
between battles, the frozen watch can be revived and used to restore
lost crew.

The frozen watch is also discussed in Fire, Smurf^h^h^h^h^h Fusion, and
Steel, 2d edition, on page 77.

Note that these two sources have different formulae for calculating the
number of frozen crew required:

  HG2 - 50% of regular crew
  FF&S2 - total crew/total displacement/1000  [I suspect that this is an
error, and should actually read:  total crew/(total
displacement/1000).]  Otherwise, a 60,000 dton ST. LOUIS-class light
cruiser with 1627 crewbeings would require:

1627/60000/1000 =  2.71167 x 10^-5

Using my revised equation (which is employed in the spreadsheets on my
Web site, as a local bug fix), you get:

1627/(60000/1000) =  27.1167, rounded up to 28 crewsicles.

I usually employ at least five sets of frozen watch on my larger warship
designs.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 20:26:06 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Currency

The Roc wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> ObTrav:  How "foldable" is Imperial credits?  Is the polymer they use as
> plyable as paper or springy like plastics?  It's a pain when the notes
> sometimes jumps out of your pocket by themselves!

That sems to happen to me a lot, usually at my FLGS....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 18:30:33 -0700
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Frozen watch

>I don't know if this has been addressed or where...but what's the purpose of
>the frozen watch on a large starship? Just curious...Now back to your
>regularly scheduled thread already in progress :)

Battle casualties, or casualties do to other reasons.  As such I'd image
that the frozen watch would be found near the center of the vessel in one
of the more secure locations.

Now considering the hazards of low berths, this brings up the question of
how skilled at their jobs the Frozen Watch is.  One possibility could be
that every so often a different set of the crew becomes the Frozen Watch.
I would image that Senior Officers would be exempt from this.  I suspect
this is also mainly found on Warships (I don't remember if any large
civilian vessels carry a frozen watch).

			Zane
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@aracnet.com (primary)    | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|                   and Zane's Computer Museum.                 |
|                 http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/              |

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 20:46:59 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Missile Defenses

Chris Peers wrote:
> 
<<snips description of explosive reactive armor>>
> 
> ObTrav: A ship sized system could be used to defend against missiles.
> Instead of explosive plates, a reloadable array of  shotgun  type devices
> could be deployed around the ship (normally stowed on the in hull surface
> compartments, the captain needs only to hit a button to have them extend in
> times of danger)

If one uses the volume and mass of these devices to mount point-defense
lasers, the missiles are unlikely to get anywhere _near_ the engagement
envelope of such a system.  The effectiveness of PD fire is why, in T4
(and, AKAIK, TNE), missile systems generally employ
nuclear-detonation-pumped lasers (usually just referred to as
det-lasers).  (This has also, of course, been the subject of the current
resurgence of the missile thread.)

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 22:01:49 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

At 06:51 PM 6/4/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Yes, Gyrojet ammo DID exist, I read about it in an older issue of
>"Shooter's Bible".
>-- 


BTW, is rocket-assisted ammo still in use?  In Traveller, do RAM Grenades
fall under this category?

Pardon me if these are dumb questions.

___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:02:43 -0400
From: "Dan Eveland" <develand@mindspring.com>
Subject: Gen Con

I would like to invite all those attending the Gen Con Game Fair 1999 to
take a look at my game listed in my signature when considering what to sign
up for.

Also, lets consider putting a list of TMLers together who will be attending
and get together for a nice time.

I was thinking at the Hilton restaurant and bar, temporarily re-names the
Amber Zone! I'll buy the first round of Scout Brew (or the local-worlders
beers, if you want to be brave).

Tentative date: Saturday, August 7th, 1999.

E-mail me or the TML. I will compile a list and post it every week until Gen
Con.

Dan Eveland
develand@mindspring.com

Personal:  http://www.daneveland.com/
Traveller: http://www.daneveland.com/traveller/
Goober:    http://www.daneveland.com/goobers/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:09:22 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Frozen watch

In a message dated 6/4/99 8:42:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
mmckeown67@hotmail.com writes:

<< 
 I don't know if this has been addressed or where...but what's the purpose of 
 the frozen watch on a large starship? Just curious...Now back to your 
 regularly scheduled thread already in progress :)
  >>

	Isn't it to replace battle losses?


		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:16:46 -0400
From: "pould" <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

- -----Original Message-----
>
>
>BTW, is rocket-assisted ammo still in use?  In Traveller, do RAM Grenades
>fall under this category?
>
>Pardon me if these are dumb questions.


Generally no. It is GROTESQUELY inaccurate. RAM grenades are fired as per
normal and then receive a rocket boost midflight  at some point, so they are
definitely not recoilless

And there are no dumb questions.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 00:01:30 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum 

> Keven Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
> 
> > > In a message dated 99-06-04 02:01:01 EDT, you write:
> > > 
> > > << I was wondering what the effect vacuum has on guns. Specifically, can a
> > >  rifle or other "gunpowder" weapons be fired in a vacuum? What weapons can?
> > >  Accelerator Rifles? Just curious what weapons can be used if a ship is
> > >  decompressed or if fighting on a world with no oxegon. >>
> > > 
> > > The only effect that it would have is that the gun powder would not
> > > exsplode, if you had something that does not use gun powder then it
> > > would work just fine.
> > 
> > Modern smokeless powders carry their own oxydants.  Therefore, they don't 
> > *need* atmospheric oxygen to burn.  Yeah, guns *will* work in a vacuum.
> 
> I'm not sure what prompts you to say this, Keven, but it's wrong.
> No modern commercial powder (and virtually no military powders)
> contain an oxidizer (not oxydant) as an integral part of their
> composition.

Uh, yeah, they do.

> BTW, unlike black powder, modern "smokeless" gun powder does not
> explode, it simply burns rapidly (and, yes, there *is* a difference.)

All an explosion is, is just a *VERY* fast burn.
 
> (I have some small experience in this area.  Note the 2nd line
> after my name in my .sig.)

The U.S. Army kept trying to tell me I was a small arms expert.  <shrug>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 17:36:11 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

At 10:24 AM 6/4/99 -0700, Mark Cook wrote:
>As a result, standard modern cartridges will either a) fail to fire
>in vacuum, or b) behave like "squib" rounds if a small amount of air
>has remained sealed inside the case.  The latter behavior may render
>your firearm unusable, depending upon how far the slug travels into
>the barrel before becoming lodged.
>

So, assuming from your .sig that you are the correct one, how do very
thin, thin, dense, and so on atomospheres affect standard guns? 
Atomospheres tainted with sulphur?
Just some thoughts that I never thought of.


- -- 
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head / no time for mourning
ain't got no time  -- Creed
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 23:04:24 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output

>Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 16:39:55 EDT
>From: TDRandall@aol.com
>Subject: Maximum ship-building output - try #2
>
>If you have two class A starports, one at tech level 11 and one at tech
level 
>15, shouldn't the second be able to outperform the first in more than just 
>"zippier" ships? ... And shouldn't a TL 15 B starport still be able to
outperform a TL >11 A starport in some pretty significant ways? 
>
>Maybe it should be based more on some other "production capability" of the 
>planet itself?  Then, how might these naval bases that orbit a pretty 
>lifeless moon be counted?
>
>If there's nothing canon, I'd appreciate some rules of thumb that someone 
>might have found workable.  I have no idea where to begin.

Do you have access to a copy of GT: Far Trader? I can give you a rule of
thumb for civilian shipyards, anyway.

From the draft of the upcoming GT: Starports:

"Shipyard Capacity

"Class IV and V starports have shipyards attached to them. The total
civilian shipyard capacity in dtons is equal to estimated annual trade
tonnage divided by 250. This is sufficient to cover annual maintenance
requirements, repairs, and replacement construction. In wartime (or other
emergencies), this capacity can be extended by 50% and used to accommodate
military vessels."

Annual trade tonnage depends on starport class, TL, trade classifications,
and proximity to suitable markets. Use GT: Far Trader (pp. 11-17) to
calculate the World Trade Number for the planet itself. Then use one of the
following methods to arrive at annual trade tonnage:

Method #1 (Most Accurate) -- Calculate the Bilateral Trade Number for every
world with which the planet trades, consult the table on p. FT16, and add
up all the tonnages. Don't forget to check for trade routes, and raise the
minimum traffic to the level specified on p. FT18; this represents
transient traffic passing through the system. The full analysis can take
quite a lot of time and effort, but if you're doing the work for some other
reason (naval budgets, commerce raiding, etc.) it might be worthwhile.

Method #2 (Quick and Dirty) -- Add 5 to the WTN and subtract the Distance
Modifier from the table on the top of p. FT15, using the distance to the
nearest star system, regardless of type. Again, if the world is on a trade
route (a pure GM call, in this case), raise the number to the minimum BTN
for the route (10 for a Main/Xboat Route, 9 for a Feeder Route, 8 for a
Minor Route/Jump-1 Main). Use this number and consult the table on p. FT16
to get total trade in dtons/year.

Ian Whitchurch has a different approximation he might be willing to share.

Naval shipyards are a separate issue, and one I haven't worked completely
out yet -- in part for the reasons you mention. CT says that naval bases
don't have their own shipyards: they contract with local firms (Supp 9:
Fighting Ships, p. 6). Hans Rancke-Madsen has pointed out that this doesn't
always make sense, and that the shipyard capacity addressed in TCS should
be separate from the ordinary civilian shipbuilding. But for now you can
take your military capacity from the civilian, plus 50% for running extra
shifts in wartime. Overtime (per TCS) is on top of this 50% increase.

Hope this helps -- write me offlist if you need help with the Far Trader bits.

[By the way, if anyone tries both methods, I could really use some feedback
on how closely they match. I've tried a couple of data points, but not
enough to be really comfortable that the quick and dirty method is a good
approximation.]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 01:11:22 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Grounding a starship

In a message dated 99-05-20 09:58:39 EDT, you write:

<< There are already critters like this in use in the mining industry.  Some
 ores are extremely difficult to recover the desired mineral from (gold from
 arsenopyrites spring to mind).  There has been a fair bit of work done with
 various greeblies in an attempt to get them to eat and remove the gangue
 minerals.  Such an organism could cause huge amounts of damage to a ship.
 Te he he he ....
  >>

What about the Haggi (?) from startrek, mix a Dune Worm with those critters...
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 01:37:50 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Grounding a starship

At 01:11 AM 6/5/99 -0400, you wrote:

>
>What about the Haggi (?) from startrek, mix a Dune Worm with those critters...
>-Stephen

"Horta".
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 22:39:01 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

>What the world seriously lacks is an easy to use, portable _vector_
>image format. There are WMF and the various program files on the Windows
>side (which many Mac programs can open), Pict and the various program
>files on the Mac side (which Quicktime and many PC programs can open),
>and Postscript everywhere.

PDF files can encapsulate postscript and other vector formats. If your
drawing program can't output PDF you can use Acrobat or PDFWriter to
convert from native format to PDF.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 01:43:03 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Doug B.'s Sig (Was Re: Sector Data)

In a message dated 99-05-20 14:06:36 EDT, you write:

<< Jim Clem
 Helix:  I once heard about a prototype reactor that lost its plasma
 containment.  It made
 a huge bang and flash of light when it started up.
 Florence:  Yes.  Its one of the few cases of an existing product becoming
 vaporware! >>

Hehe, I'll have to rember that one.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 01:44:15 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shipping costs recap

In a message dated 99-05-20 14:35:05 EDT, you write:

<<  Funny you should ask - we're looking for lab anim^h^h ...test pilots :> >>

What about a computer (from CSC) programed with astrogation-4?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 01:46:28 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A Plea for Cinema Restraint

In a message dated 99-05-20 17:29:41 EDT, you write:

<< >Since I was 10 in 1977, I didn't rush out to see Star Wars. I was however,
 >reading Heinlen, Niven, Clarke, Pournelle, and anyone else I could get my
 >hands on. Traveller fit right into this "Golden Age of Science Fiction",
 >no light sabres, no creatures living in vacuums, lasers were light beams
 and
 >didn't make the noise you get when you hit a cable supporting a telephone
 >pole with a piece of metal, and when ships exploded in space: they made no
 >noise! >>

Hmm, critter in vacuume?  M0, under rumers, something about a stammering 
scout, I think...
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 00:50:34 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Grounding a starship

Jory Earl wrote:
> 
> At 01:11 AM 6/5/99 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >
> >What about the Haggi (?) from startrek, mix a Dune Worm with those critters...
> >-Stephen
> 
> "Horta".

Either that or "haggis", a dish favored by Chief Engineer Scott's
ancestors (and possibly by Scotty as well...).

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 01:51:28 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

In a message dated 99-05-21 07:10:07 EDT, you write:

<< ObTrav[ish]:  The scene in star trek [something-or-other] where Scottie
 picks up a mouse and starts trying to chat to it - kind-of makes the
 'antique computer' skill more useful, huh?  Would you be able to plug a TL15
 optical-thingy into a TL9 +/- 5v, +/- 12v box?
 
 Mike.
 
 *the difference between theory and practice is smaller in theory than in
 practice* - unknown >>

Soom of the FMs from CSC might come in handy, altho it would have to be 
another set.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #710
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 5 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 711



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Macromolecules
Re: Spetznaz
Re: Grounding a starship
Re: Guns in vacuum 
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: Pocket Empires and Imperial Squadrons
Re: I like missiles
Reference to PDL's
Guns in Vacuum
Re: Shipping costs recap
Re: Meson Support Boat
Re: Currency
Re: Shipping costs recap
Re: I like missiles
Subject: GT/GV2 questions
Re: Maximum ship-building output - try #2
Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff
re: Missile Defenses
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re: Maximum ship-building output - try #2
Re: Maximum ship-building output - try #2
Re: instanta books 
Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey
Re: I like missiles
BayCon pictures up
Re: First In Software?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 01:53:41 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Macromolecules

In a message dated 99-05-21 07:35:29 EDT, you write:

<< These already exist. They are called "crystals". I've handled a single
 molecule of silicon that was 6 feet long and a couple of inches thick! >>

crystals are mono-moleculer?  I thought that they were organized molecules.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 02:13:37 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Spetznaz

In a message dated 99-05-21 20:53:38 EDT, you write:

<< >         A number of things come to mind, but the most obvious
 >         would be to scoop out an eye. You don't need fancy
 >         equipment to inflict suffering, just a little
 >         depravity ;->
 
 Well, you're more depraved than I am. I and my friends had encountered
 folks being *threatened* with a spoon in a couple of books and not been
 able to figure what the threatr was. Not until we read the rather
 graphic description of actually *doing* it.  >>

Just hope your on the winning side, war crimes tribunales might frown opon 
that.  It could be part of a moraity test (like the adventure shore leave). 
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 02:17:39 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Grounding a starship

In a message dated 99-06-05 01:32:13 EDT, you write:

<< "Horta". >>

Ah, Horta, one of those in the cargo hold could do a lot of remodeling:)
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 02:21:14 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum 

In a message dated 99-06-05 00:03:45 EDT, you write:

<< > > Modern smokeless powders carry their own oxydants.  Therefore, they 
don't 
 > > *need* atmospheric oxygen to burn.  Yeah, guns *will* work in a vacuum.
 > 
 > I'm not sure what prompts you to say this, Keven, but it's wrong.
 > No modern commercial powder (and virtually no military powders)
 > contain an oxidizer (not oxydant) as an integral part of their
 > composition.

 Uh, yeah, they do.>>

I guess things realy do change when you're not looking.
Now I feal like a timer.
- -Stephen 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 02:29:15 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

At 01:51 AM 6/5/99 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 99-05-21 07:10:07 EDT, you write:
>
><< ObTrav[ish]:  The scene in star trek [something-or-other] where Scottie
> picks up a mouse and starts trying to chat to it - kind-of makes the
> 'antique computer' skill more useful, huh?  Would you be able to plug a TL15
> optical-thingy into a TL9 +/- 5v, +/- 12v box?
> 

Star Trek 4 :  The Voyage Home

Scotty :  "Computer?"
Mcoy sees mouse and hands it to him.  He brings it to his mouth like a
microphone and says, "Computer"?

The business owner, miffed about this, then says, "Just use the keyboard".

Scotty : "Keyboard?  How quaint!"
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 02:35:44 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

In a message dated 99-06-04 06:40:28 EDT, you write:

<< Actually, I asked the same qeustion some years ago (1980, in fact) of the 
 folks at GDW.  The point they suggested to keep in mind is that a weapon 
 designed for use in atmosphere would be prone to vacuuum welding, and so be 
 very likely to missfire or to jam permanently. >>

vacuum welding?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 02:39:36 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Pocket Empires and Imperial Squadrons

In a message dated 99-06-04 07:37:17 EDT, you write:

<< For that matter what about if the ships displacements are smaller than 
those
 specified. For example the rules state that battleships are vessels greater
 than 100,000 tons. However in my game the largest vessel is 20,000 tons and
 this is called a battleship. Do I multyply the number of squadron by say 5.
 I was actually hoping to use Pocket Empires and Imperial Squadrons in a TNE
 game. >>

I don't think you need to change the number of squadrons, if you call a 20K 
ton ship a Battleship then you can keep the number of squadrons and there 
values, as they are relitive to each other.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 02:46:09 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: I like missiles

In a message dated 99-06-04 08:45:09 EDT, you write:

<<   You do realize that the US Space shuttle was nearly penitrated by a 
paint 
 chip a few years back.  I think that a paint chip is much softer  than the 
 explosive warhead you mentioned above.
 
 Will >>

Paint chip? Alto it is very dangerus it seems a little funny: a super 
exspenive, hi-tech, space craft gets terminated by paint chip.  I would add a 
little bit of protechion to it.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 02:04:18 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Reference to PDL's

  I was wondering where the rules for adding PDL's to a ship's design are?
I have the normal CT rules, book 5 (High Guard), Battle Lances and FF&S
(For TNE). I wanted to do a battle test with a friend and a new design for
both a Stealth missile and a Torpedo (at a loss for any other name). But
none of the base ship designs in FF&S or BL include PDL's (Unless we are
missing something). So if ya could help us out, be appreciated.

 Joe
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 03:14:58 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Guns in Vacuum

There are actually three different factors to the question: Will a 
slug-throwing weapon fire in space?

 -Vacuum: as answered by numerous others; the lack of oxygen will hamper the 
operation of the ammunition. Vacuum-welding my also occur over longer 
exposures.

 -Zero-G:  recoil is rarely your friend...

 -Temperature: The extreme cold of space can adversely affect the metal of 
the weapon.

GC

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 00:20:38 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Shipping costs recap

>From: SRKOALA@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Shipping costs recap
...
><<  Funny you should ask - we're looking for lab anim^h^h ...test pilots :> >>
>
>What about a computer (from CSC) programed with astrogation-4?

  "Why aren't robots used for almost everything in Traveller?" 
Don't go there...  (and this is a beef I have with the various robots
design systems - why hire/train a pilot when I can plug in a black box
with Ship's Boat (etc.) level 4?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 03:37:09 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Meson Support Boat

In a message dated 99-06-04 12:06:05 EDT, you write:

<< t could be put in almost any size hull, providing the dimensions are
 adequate.  Here is an outline of my thinking...
 
 1.  Design the meson weapon.
 2.  Develop it according to the Deep Site rules and find the weight and
 requirements needed for everything *inside* the hollowed out sphere it
 would operate in.
 3.  Design the host platform, ship, boat, or vehicle to carry it.  
 4.  Use the volume of the sphere (determined in step 2) as the volume of
 the weapon.  Add a slush fund of maybe 10% for additional structural
 support and bracing required.
 5.  Treat the weapon "sphere" as a seperate mount and crew normally.
 
 If you create self contained or booster power plants for these weapons you
 could rebuild old SDBs or other craft into self contained Meson Gun
 batteries for not only indirect fire (Ortillery), direct battlefield
 support, or a harassment weapon in the event the world is overrun. 
 
 The nice feature is that the craft could mount as many or as few of these
 as necessary. >>

Interesting, a large meson gun on a gimble turret.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 03:37:26 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Currency

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, June 03, 1999 12:12 PM
Subject: Re: Currency


>Why on earth (or any of the _other_ 13,000 worlds) would the Imperium
>_care_ where and how you spend your money? Do you know the absurd mass
>of useless information that would produce?


Or, of course, the amount of useful information it would produce.

>Some draconian law level worlds might do so, but it's highly unlikely
>that the Imperium
>would care...they get their power from the free flow of credits, not
>tracking them.


Yeah, you believe that, and I've got a Plankwell to sell you.

The Imperium doesn't get its power from the "free flow" of credits. It could
be argued that they get their power from the money they rake in. The money
they rake in comes from taxation. The taxes would largely come from the
gigantic megacorporations. It's a sweet deal on both sides.

It's in the Imperium's best interests to make sure that trade is as
efficient as possible. A simple method of tracking who buys what would be
*immensely* useful to, say, Ling-Standard and Delgado, among others.

Let's face it, there's no doubt that the study of psycho-history in the
Imperium actually *grew* from data that can only come from studying
amazingly huge populations and their trends. Which advertising campaigns are
most effective? Are certain campaigns more effective with younger folks?
Older folks? The bereaved and grief stricken?

This data can be gathered by surveys and the like, but ultimately there's a
margin of error. There is no margin of error if the naked statistics, and
not statistics about people from a small sample of a certain population, are
the ones that are gathered.

>Imperial taxes are low enough so as not to make them worth evading; more
>than likely, many world's Imperial tax allotments are taken as part of
>the berthing fees at the starports, and other such use fees rather than
>direct taxation of commerce or the population at large.


Possibly. Imperial tax evasion is not the only kind of tax evasion, however.
Evasion can occur on a planetary or even national scale.

>As I said, the individual worlds may have taxes of their own, perhaps
>quite high taxes, and may rigorously tax all such cash transactions.
>More likely, though, cash will be
>illegal on such worlds, amd trackable money cards will be used instead.


It's possible, although if there's a system of quickly and effectively
tracking cash, than the anonymity angle is eliminated. At that point,
there's no reason to outlaw cash.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 04:19:00 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shipping costs recap

In a message dated 99-06-05 03:21:48 EDT, you write:

<<   "Why aren't robots used for almost everything in Traveller?" 
 Don't go there...  (and this is a beef I have with the various robots
 design systems - why hire/train a pilot when I can plug in a black box
 with Ship's Boat (etc.) level 4? >>

In CSC it says that they cost a lot of money (a lot more than a human) so 
that takes care of that problem.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1999 21:06:42 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: I like missiles

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) write:
>  Presumably High Guard is assumed to be based on a vector system, as
>the detailed CT (& CT-era stuff like Triplanetary) space combat systems
>are vector based (B:2, Mayday). The old Dragon article to that effect
>is a bit limited by its shortness, but you could play it as the above but
>using Agility (before mods for Pilot 3+) as maneuver-G's.

Mayday (1980 version) had a few notes on using its movement with HG2.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 08:40:06 -0400
From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Subject: GT/GV2 questions

>From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
>
>Couple of questions for building things for GURPS Traveller using GURPS
>Vehicles 2nd ed.:
>
>How are nuclear dampers built? GV2 lists them as GTL 15 (!) devices.

As described in GURPS Traveller certain technologies are available either
earlier or later than the tech levels listed in GURPS Ultra-Tech/GURPS
Vehicles 2nd ed. GT p107 gives a quick general rundown by technology.
Nuclear Dampers are GTL 12 devices in the Traveller setting, in conformance
to CT TL15 which the table on GTp107 shows as being equivalent to GT12

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 08:54:29 -0400
From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output - try #2

I suspect that even though any Class A starport can produce ships that the
vast majority of work at most starports will be repair work. The lower
population GTL12 Starport will probably build more SDB's for the local
colonial Navy and small ships while the high population GTL12 is more likely
to build IISS, IN and Megacorp heavy tonnage.  Don't forget that the
shipyard at a Class A starport could just as easily be a private or military
shipyard instead of one selling to the general public.

For a discussion on why GTL12 worlds don't general produce GTL10 products
see Far Trader Thrash, MacLean and Daniels explain it better than I ever
could.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 12:11:14 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net> wrote:
>This then, IMO, would also invalidate the entire concept of missiles.  If
>the lag is so bad that a bus vehicle that travels at missile speeds can not
>get the payload within decent range, and outside PD range, then the entire
>missile concept is flawed.

In Traveller terms, your PDL laser needs to operate at short range minimum
which is 1 light second  (p75 Starships, T4), the next range bands are 2, 4
and 8 light seconds.

Light travels 300,000 km in a  second so your bus has to be beyond this to
be sure it is out of PDL fire. If you assume standard Traveller missiles,
they can burn 6G in a standard 20 min turn....

- ---------
s=a (t^2) * 0.5

a = 6G = 60 ms-2
t = 20 * 60 = 1200 secs

Hence - distance covered in the first turn =

s1 = 60 (1200*1200) *0.5 = 43,200,000m = 43,200 km or 14.4% of the range band
- --------

Reversing the logic, we want the missile to hit in that single turn, so s
must be 300,000km

rearranging

s=a(t^2)*0.5

a = 2s / (t^2)

s = 300,000 km = 300,000,000 m
t = 1200 secs

hence a = (2*300000000) / (1200 * 1200) = 416.7 ms-2 = 41.7 G

So your missile needs to achieve a 42G burn for twenty minutes to hit in a
game turn. Assuming a PDL optimised for rapid fire ie ROF 800, the laser
will shoot every 1.5 seconds.

That's a 3 second window to change your position - but, you need to push
the G available up to evade successfully and achieve a hit if you want to
evade as well.

- -----------
Now, the launcher is at least 300,000 km away. Against a civilian ship you
are generally okay, but with a military target you're probably already
under fire. Hence I think a bus solution is flawed.

Missiles become effective against civilian, or crippled targets (in the way
torpedoes were used to sink crippled ships in WW2), or when combined with
another attack which can overwhelm the target. Arguably, the Simbad Sam BB
KKM attack, if launched as a number of waves has attractions, but when you
start adding evasion and relative velocities from both target, controller
and launcher things get harder. Missiles will end up being used like those
used to ambush the Kafer fleet in the rings/asteroids by Borodin in 2300AD.
Powered down, stealthed, they also have a role, but Traveller lasers
currently knock out CT style (and 2300 style) missiles.

>If you add rudimentry gunnery software that would go in a robot, you would
>be able to lessen the impact the lag would have.

True, but it doesn't resolve the distance / acceleration / ROF issues.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 12:22:56 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Missile Defenses

"Chris Peers" <peersce@mindspring.com> wrote:
>ObTrav: A ship sized system could be used to defend against missiles.
>Instead of explosive plates, a reloadable array of  shotgun  type devices
>could be deployed around the ship (normally stowed on the in hull surface
>compartments, the captain needs only to hit a button to have them extend in
>times of danger)

Or we could put them in turrets and call them "sandcasters". ;-)

Missiles have to penetrate sand in CT, MT... T4 was never defined AFAIK.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 09:29:35 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

At 02:29 AM 6/5/99 -0400, you wrote:
>At 01:51 AM 6/5/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>In a message dated 99-05-21 07:10:07 EDT, you write:
>>
>><< ObTrav[ish]:  The scene in star trek [something-or-other] where Scottie
>> picks up a mouse and starts trying to chat to it - kind-of makes the
>> 'antique computer' skill more useful, huh?  Would you be able to plug a
TL15
>> optical-thingy into a TL9 +/- 5v, +/- 12v box?
>> 
>
>Star Trek 4 :  The Voyage Home
>
>Scotty :  "Computer?"
>Mcoy sees mouse and hands it to him.  He brings it to his mouth like a
>microphone and says, "Computer"?
>
>The business owner, miffed about this, then says, "Just use the keyboard".
>
>Scotty : "Keyboard?  How quaint!"

And then he manages to type a complex chemical formula into a program
he has never seen before on an OS he has never seen before on a computer
he has never seen before! A tribute to the ease of use of the Mac, or a
serious lapse in believability?

On the other hand, TL8 worlds regularly do business with TL15 worlds, so
the while Scotty lives in an exclusively TL15? world, 3I has figured out
some way to make computers like ours compatible with ones that you can
chat with: "No, no, no, Aleeza! I wanted invisible steel! This has an
extra carbon molecule. Over here. No, not that one! Yes, that's it! 
Thanks.
"Can you rotate that in three dimensions now to impress this TL8
barbarian. Of course in the holotank. He's already seen a monitor before."


- -- 
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head / no time for mourning
ain't got no time  -- Creed
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 09:40:02 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output - try #2

At 08:54 AM 6/5/99 -0400, Terry Carlino wrote:
>I suspect that even though any Class A starport can produce ships that the
>vast majority of work at most starports will be repair work. The lower
>population GTL12 Starport will probably build more SDB's for the local
>colonial Navy and small ships while the high population GTL12 is more likely
>to build IISS, IN and Megacorp heavy tonnage.  Don't forget that the
>shipyard at a Class A starport could just as easily be a private or military
>shipyard instead of one selling to the general public.

Noticing that in the Real World, Lockheed Martin just jumped several points
in the stock market because they are selling 12 F-15s for several million
dollars, I wonder what kind of boom it is to the local economy When someone
says, "I need a new Free Trader." Of course, more free traders exist than
F-15s.

- -- 
Should've been dead on a Sunday morning
banging my head / no time for mourning
ain't got no time  -- Creed
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 09:38:40 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output - try #2

I've always assumed that the majority of starship construction takes place on 
those industrial worlds which possess an A starport.  That is where the 
infrastructure, capital, and expertise is concentrated for mass production.  
It wasn't ever stated in the rules, but I've always assumed that starships 
could be produced at a discounted price on such worlds, since the old trade 
and speculation tables provided for sizeable discounts on other manufactured 
goods.  As an alternative approach, one could assume that the "standard" 
starship price reflects a ship produced at an industrial world, and that the 
cost of a ship produced at a less capable world should be inflated by a fair 
percentage.

On the other hand, a whole lot of low population worlds do boast A starports. 
 My thinking was that for many of these worlds, this reflected nothing more 
than the presence of excellent facilties and  trained personnel who could 
produce a starship if pressed to do so, but who probably focus their 
attention on more routine maintenance and repair.  There would be little 
incentive for the average ship buyer to forgo the discounts on price that an 
industrial world would provide.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 10:00:50 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: instanta books 

> Our FLGS needs one of these!
> 
> Book printing in fifteen minutes.  It's currently geared toward paperbacks, 
> but it shouldn't be too hard to refigure this for standard RPG book format
> 
> 
> http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/instantbooks990602.html

Sounds like a wizard idea to me.  And the machine can just keep track of which books got printed in order to send the 'publisher' their share of royalties to split with the author...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 07:26:33
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: [Way OT] Re: Old Computer Fogey

At 09:29 AM 6/5/99 -0400, you wrote:

>And then he manages to type a complex chemical formula into a program
>he has never seen before on an OS he has never seen before on a computer
>he has never seen before! A tribute to the ease of use of the Mac, or a
>serious lapse in believability?

In the immortal words of my wife:  "was this the *only* problem you had
with the movie?"

My favorite was parking a large spaceship in Golden Gate Park, and not
having a single jogger, frisbee player, or homeless person run into it.  SF
is a wee bit crowded, and the park is always full.  That and the image of
the crew *walking* from the Polo Fields all the way to 5th and Market.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 07:31:19
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: I like missiles

At 02:46 AM 6/5/99 EDT, you wrote:

>Paint chip? Alto it is very dangerus it seems a little funny: a super 
>exspenive, hi-tech, space craft gets terminated by paint chip.

the paint chip in question left a half-inch scar on the cockpit window.
Hit with the effective energy of a .50cal BMG round, IIRC.

Wasn't there an experiment put up a few years back that was supposed to get
hit by micrometeors and debris?
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 07:33:47
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: BayCon pictures up

A couple of photos from the Great TML Vilani BBQ are now up at:

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/baycon.html

If I misspelled your names, it's your own fault.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 11:05:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: First In Software?

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:

>In mail you write:
>
>> I'm modifying Metator to handle the GURPS variant. So yes, it will be
>> available.
>>
>> As to being available on a PC...  Well, if someone donates me a PC, I'll
>> code it, but I'm not investing my own money in one.  An iMac, maybe, but
>> not anytime soon, especially if the neo-cons get back in power.
>
>Would a 386 do?

From the Delphi version 2 CD case: "This package contains a complete
version of 32-bit Delphi for Windows 95 and Windows NT and a complete
16-bit version of Delphi for Windows 3.1 that can be installed on your hard
disk."

It doesn't list memory requirements, and I'm not familiar enough with PCs
to know from the chip number. Will a 386 run Windows 95? (As I assume most
people will want a Windows 95 application.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #711
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 5 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 712



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: First In Software?
Re: Missile Defenses
Re: I like missiles
Re: Currency
Re: Automation
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
re: Reference to PDL's
Re: Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors
Re: missiles
Re: Missile math
Re: detecting missiles
Re: Reference to PDL's
Old RPG.Net article which mentions Traveller
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: Frozen watch
Re: Gen Con

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 10:28:39 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: First In Software?

Robert Prior wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >>
> >> As to being available on a PC...  Well, if someone donates me a PC, I'll
> >> code it, but I'm not investing my own money in one.  An iMac, maybe, but
> >> not anytime soon, especially if the neo-cons get back in power.
> >
> >Would a 386 do?
> 
> >From the Delphi version 2 CD case: "This package contains a complete
> version of 32-bit Delphi for Windows 95 and Windows NT and a complete
> 16-bit version of Delphi for Windows 3.1 that can be installed on your hard
> disk."
> 
> It doesn't list memory requirements, and I'm not familiar enough with PCs
> to know from the chip number. Will a 386 run Windows 95? (As I assume most
> people will want a Windows 95 application.)

C'mon, we're talking about Micro$oft bloatware here.  For Win95, you
need at _least_ a fast 486; I would recommend at least a Pentium-class
processor.  [ObTrav: For _optimal_ performance, I would suggest a Model
6fib or better....]

OTOH, a quite serviceable Celeron 366 MHz or faster (with 128k of
integrated L2 cache) can be had for US $500 or so, with an extra
$250-$300 or so for a 17" monitor.  That's about half the price of an
iMac....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 09:05:00 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Missile Defenses

>Missiles have to penetrate sand in CT, MT... T4 was never defined AFAIK.

Missiles are reduced by sand in both the simple space combat system in the
T4 main book and in the Role-Playing space combat system.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 09:05:56 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: I like missiles

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: I like missiles
.
>>  Presumably High Guard is assumed to be based on a vector system, as
.
>Mayday (1980 version) had a few notes on using its movement with HG2.

Hmm, I must have the wrong version of Mayday :(
  What hex ranges do they suggest for the short/long bands?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 13:56:26 -0400
From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Currency

>ObTrav:  How "foldable" is Imperial credits?  Is the polymer they use as
>playable as paper or springy like plastics?  It's a pain when the notes
>sometimes jumps out of your pocket by themselves!
>
>- --  The Roc

Funny paper money seems to jump out of my pocket just as fast ;^)

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 11:18:37 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Automation

><<   "Why aren't robots used for almost everything in Traveller?"
> Don't go there...  (and this is a beef I have with the various robots
> design systems - why hire/train a pilot when I can plug in a black box
> with Ship's Boat (etc.) level 4? >>
>
>In CSC it says that they cost a lot of money (a lot more than a human) so
>that takes care of that problem.

Where does it say that? My copy of CSC says a TL12 black box with Ship's
Boat 6 (the lowest that can be built at that tech level) costs about Cr10
(yes, ten credits) and weighs 100 grams. At higher tech levels the cost and
size is nil and they could be included as free prizes in cereal boxes.

Now, CSC also charges an exorbitant MCr0.1 per m^3 for an "autopilot" in
vehicles, but presumably this is for sensors, actuators, and control
systems. It's curious that cargo and passenger space require just as much
autopilot as engines and weaponry. In any case, FF&S doesn't require any
extra hardware for computer control of spacecraft; presumably they are
already run by computers and the crew is just there to operate the machines.

For comparison, a single crew station and half a stateroom costs over Cr100
000 and 2 dtons. Add salaries and the notorious Cr2000 per trip for live
crew and you'd conclude only someone who wants to go broke in as unsafe a
ship as possible would use any human crew.

If you think the autopilot price is too high you could just replace the
crew with reprogramed "companion" robots. While the purchase cost of KCr250
and annual contract of KCr25 per year are greater than the fixed cost for
human crew, the operating costs are lower. You could probably reduce the
contract price by doing your own maintenance. Losing that pilot will save
you about KCr100 per year in salary and life support alone. If you can sell
the ex-pilot's cabin for middle passage you'll gain about KCr192 per year.
Replacing your crew with robots can save you millions. All this is at TL12;
robots get cheaper and better at higher TLs.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 99 15:26:31 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

On 06/03/99 at 09:22 PM,  Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> said:

>In general, cargo loading and unloading rates depend on the number
>and placement of cargo hatches, in relation to the configuration of
>the berth. To first approximation, the contact area between the berth
>and the ship goes up only as the 2/3 power of ship volume. Then you
>have to consider the effect of different hull forms on generic
>highport hatch placement (most cargo moves by unstreamlined
>freighter, from highport to highport). 

Why does a cargo ship need to *dock* at a berth?  Much better to do
it out in space where you have room to work.

The line cargo ship transports cargo on standard grav-pallets.  The
ship pulls into it's assigned "archorage" near the Highport where it
waits for the arrival of fuelers and tugs.  When they arrive (could
be waiting on the ship with proper planning) the ship opens all its
cargo hatches and "floats" the cargo pallets out to the waiting tugs
(lighters).  The tugs grab the pallets and tow them to the
Highport's storage areas.  Meanwhile the fuelers start pumping fuel
into the cargo ship.  Next, incoming cargo is towed over by tugs for
"roll in" to the ship, which closes its hatches, finishes refueling,
waits for clearance (both of the tugs and fuelers and the Highport's
tower) then boosts for the jump point.

Even better, design the ship with fore and aft "float on/float off"
in mind.  Cargo is floated on through the large fore hatch as cargo
is being floated out through the large aft hatch.  The cargo would
have to be organized into a queue, but that would work on routes
with regular cargo loadouts.

Of course, *none* of this works for ships doing spec trade or
dealing with spot cargo markets...like PC ships.  ;-> They have to
spend time in port selling merchandise, then and finding, buying,
and loading more.  They don't always have regular routes and will
almost never have regular cargo loadouts.  So, the PC ship sits in
port for several days...while the PC's get a chance to have an
adventure. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 19:55:04 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Reference to PDL's

Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net> writes:

>  I was wondering where the rules for adding PDL's to a ship's design are?
>I have the normal CT rules, book 5 (High Guard), Battle Lances and FF&S
>(For TNE). I wanted to do a battle test with a friend and a new design for
>both a Stealth missile and a Torpedo (at a loss for any other name). But
>none of the base ship designs in FF&S or BL include PDL's (Unless we are
>missing something). So if ya could help us out, be appreciated.

Standard HG/CT lasers can be used in point defense against missiles
already. TNE and Briilliant Lances just offered a more detailed laser
design sequence where you could tailor a short range, high ROF weapon to
operate in a PD role.

So PDLs are just weapons with a USP rating slanted towards the short ranges
and high ROFs.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 13:41:49 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors

>Enlighten me if you will, but what would be the effect on laser fire
>if a missile had a highly reflectived or mirrored surface.   While it would
>be impractical to mirror the surface of a starship, a one-time use, deep
>space missile could easily have a mirrorer outer shell.     If the mirrored
>surface could deflect a significant amount of laser energy, then the missile
>might be more survivable.   And yes, I realize that TL 13+ x-ray lasers would
>not be affected.

Even against visible-light lasers, mirrored armour probably won't be very
effective. The basic problem is (a) no mirror is perfect - so a mirrored
coating
will absorb (say) 1% of the heat incident on it, and (b) mirrors are fragile;
it takes very little absorbed energy to turn them into something blackened and
no longer reflective. So if a 100 Mj 1 milisecond laser pulse hits a surface,
in the first ten microseconds the square cm of mirror coating that is getting
hit
absorbs (100 Mj/milisecond)*(10 microseconds)*(1%)=10 kilojoules,
which is certainly enough to blacken the mirror; now that it's black, for the
remaining 990 microseconds it absorbs the full pulse.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 13:51:26 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: missiles

>Remember, this a handwave...
>I just assume that it's easier to hit a target with a max delta-V of 6G,
>that is MUCH larger, in every dimension, and that is arguably more
>vulnerable to the laser in the first place.  Also, anti-ship lasers (as
>opposed to PDL) are larger and presumably have a lower ROF.  Unless my
>assumptions are totally incorrect (not unlikely) a high-pulse PDL will be
>chemically pumped and therefor will vibrate like mad.  True, you might not
>be able to see it with a naked eye, but at 2,000 km against a 10cm target,
>well... A larger weaopn with lower ROF can presumably be dampened more
>effectively.
High ROF lasers will probably be electrical, not chemical.

It's pretty easy to stabalize the beam; you don't have to hold the whole
laser assembly still, just one small steering mirror. Arrange things so that
your boresight sensor is looking along the same steering mirror and close a
control loop to hold the target still on the steering mirror; and hence
the laser is held still on the target. This is how modern astronomical
adaptive
optics work; a modern AO system can track targets to a fraction of a
microradian.

>I was using someone else's (incorrect) numbers.  In actuality, a missile
>pulling 50Gs would be able to displace 245m/sec from predicted flight path.
>This is 14.7m, vastly more than the highest ROF laser can cover (That's over
>678 M^2)  Now, in practice, a missile won't be able to manuever exactly
>perpendicular to the direction of thrust, but even given 10% thrust to the
>perpendicular, this should be enough to restrict useful PDL to point-blank
>range.

The distance a missile offsets from its predicted flight path goes as
1/2 * acceleration * timelag^2, where timelag = 2*range/c. At 1000 km, this is
0.011 m. (The time^2 really kills you at short ranges.) No
problem for the PDL.

You can make arguments about time to detect missiles (although if a missile
can hide at 1000km, starships will never see each other - sensor signatures
go up as (range^2), and a missile that's running its powerplant enough to
accelerate at 50G is much brighter per ton than a starship...) and about
crew reflexes, or slew rates (although a good laser should be able to slew
tens of degrees per second and acquire new targets in less than a second),
but in the end, what dominates is that Lasers Don't Miss at short ranges;
it's very hard to swamp a well-designed point defence system with a direct
impact missile. This is a Good Thing, because if you do the math, the kinetic
energy of these high-speed missiles is close to the yield of a nuke; direct
kinetic energy missile hits should completely trash small spacecraft, which
most
of us don't want.

Bruce

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 13:55:37 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Missile math

>Well, relative velocity isn't, by itself, relevant to a firing solution, it
>is the distance from the observed point at the time the resulting lase
>arrives that matters.  For this, d=at is the appropriat formula.

d=at^2. (d=at doesn't even have the right units...)

The t^2 means that evasion gets worse as the square of the range, which
is why targes are incredibly easy to hit at 1000-km ranges but very hard
at real starship ranges of hundreds of thousands of km.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 14:03:17 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: detecting missiles

>There are a bunch of ways to do this.  One obvious way is to
>have the front of the missile, a pod that sticks out, etc.
>covered with sensors and the back covered with radiators.  After
>all, if the radiators need to point away from the foe and the
>sensors point toward the foe, there isn't much need to put them
>on the same surface.

In FFS2, this is the sort of thing that advanced IR masking buys you.
It only works up to a point...eventually even IR emission from the body of
the missile is detectable. So you refrigerate the body of the missile...
but that gives you more heat to pump out. And you have to paint the
missile black (otheweise it's easy to detect from reflected starlight...)
And, in the end, the missile probably can't hide from active sensors.
Since active sensor detection goes as range^4, a radar that can
detect a 100-ton ship at 100,000km can detect a 0.1 ton missile
at 10,000km rather easily...

What always amuses me in these missile debates is that the people who
think they're defending Traveller canon by wanting ways to have impact
missiles end up wanting to have missiles that are undetectable and maneuver
at 50G...which gives it enough kinetic energy to destroy a warship in a
single hit. So you've designed a weapon that can surprise and destroy
small combat ships with no defence whatsoever; not very Travellerish
to me...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 14:09:06 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Reference to PDL's

> I was wondering where the rules for adding PDL's to a ship's design are?
>I have the normal CT rules, book 5 (High Guard), Battle Lances and FF&S
>(For TNE). I wanted to do a battle test with a friend and a new design for
>both a Stealth missile and a Torpedo (at a loss for any other name). But
>none of the base ship designs in FF&S or BL include PDL's (Unless we are
>missing something). So if ya could help us out

It isn't so much that there are specific special rules, so much as that
various of us noticed that with FFS2 rules you can easily build a laser with
a ROF of several pulses per second, enough damage to kill a standard
missile, and a range of 10,000 km - and that with reasonable arguments about
physics, such a laser should hit missiles 100% of the time at ranges below a
few thousand km.

Similarly, FFS/BL's sensor rules are a little weak;since there's no range
band below "short" your big PEMS-8 sensor's chance of detecting things
doens't go up at ranges below 8. In "reality", a sensor should have a
signal hundreds of times higher at a range of a ten thousand km than at
240,000 km. The Definitive Sensor Rules (available various web sites) for
FFS2 do a better job of calulating detection probabilities.

One approach would be to take this discussion to the trav-tech list (assuming
it's still active - I haven't seen any messages in a while.) Or private email;
you give me your missile's performance data and I'll calculate the range at
which a sensor can see it and a laser can hit it.

(My qualifications? I'm a professional astronomer at the Lawrence Livermore
National Laboratory, working on infrared instrumentation, adaptive optics,
and laser guide stars, which is why I know a little about sensor sensitivities
and laser and tracking capabilities...)

Bruce Macintosh

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 22:07:44 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Old RPG.Net article which mentions Traveller

http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/sfjul98.html

May be of interest, all about the state of SF Gaming today!

In addition, if anyone wants to review the BITS supplements for www.rpg.net
to add to Dave Nelson's 101 Plots one (thanks Dave!), please do so! We'd
appreciate it (I feel I can't because I'm too close to it now!)

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 02:54:55 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

"Zane H. Healy" wrote:

> IIRC, you can fire them, HOWEVER you've the problem of recoil.  You might
> want to see what information you can find on a 'GyroJet' Pistol (I believe
> that is the correct name), I'm pretty sure it was designed in the 60's with
> a limited number made.  Each bullet is actually a miniature rocket.
>
> BTW, this is from a book on guns I read in the early 80's so I might be
> remembering some details wrong.

You're confusing a vacuum atmosphere with micro- or zero-gravity environment.
Different animals.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 04 Jun 1999 03:22:16 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)

"David P. Summers" wrote:

> The maps are also copied from Traveller material.

- ------------
Disclaimer:  I'm speaking primarily from a US Copyright
law perspective, but I have some familiarity with the
Berne Copyright Treaty as well as the copyright laws of
the UK and Western Europe.  Also, I do not wish to
infringe or encourage infringement upon the copyrights
of anyone, nor the trademarks of anyone.  I am a lawyer
in the State of Massachusetts, as of next Monday, but
this if for informational and educational purposes only.
Anyone with current and real concerns in these issues
should consult a lawyer in their jurisdiction.
- -------------

Not really.  The key term is "copying" and it is often confused.

If I take my oil paint set, sit down and in front of the Mona Lisa,
and paint a perfect replica, stroke for stroke, then I have 'copied'
in common parlance, but NOT for copyright?

How can this be?

Copyright protects an author's right to reproduce his own
_original_ work of authorship.  (author/artist are interchangeable,
"author" is used in the US Copyright statutes).  So thats
one work with reproductions.

When I make a perfect replica, but its my hand that guides
the brush, its _my_ work.  I am the mover of the brush,
the author, the artist.  I have not 'reproduced' the work
of the oringinal author in any mechanical fashion.  I pushed
the paint brush.  So whatever I produce is mine.  And I
own the copyright for it.

If I had taken a taken the Mona Lisa and photocopied it,
or photographed just the painting, and then produced copies
of DaVinci's work, then I would be 'copying' in the terms of
copyright law.  And I would be infringing Da Vinci's right to
copy his own work.  That is the copying that is illegal.
If I do it myself, even though it may be a perfect match
for the original, it is NOT a "copy."

(Ignore for the moment the fact that his copyright in the Mona
Lisa has expired).

So, ob trav., if I create (and I am) my own Spinward Marches
map, as long as I do the drawing myself, I am not infringing the
copyright of whoever may have published a previous map.
Particularly fatal to the argument that I might be 'copying'
is the fact that I can produce a map of my own from just
the raw statistcal information of the sectors and UWPs.
In fact, any map generated from the same data may appear
identical.

There is no copyright problem in anyone creating their own
map of the Spinward Marches.

BUT!

Trademark issues should not be ignored.  Trademark and
copyright are DIFFERENT!  People, lawyers and judges
confuse them all the time, but they are Separate schemes
that protect intellectual property.

Trademark serves to protect the goodwill that the creator/purveyor
of a good/service creates in his product/service.  It direct purpose
is to prevent confusion in the mind of the consumer as to the
source of the good/servive.  When you the consumer by a
Tukera ship, you expect a ship produced by Tukera, not by
Oberlindes.

When trademark issues are most often discussed, the subject
is the "mark."  This is usually a word or image unique (within the
particular market). [Aside: The first trademark was for Bass beer and
consists of the red triangle.  If you try to market a beer with a
red triangle on the label, or otherwise incorporated into the good,
you would be violating Bass' trademark.  No question about it.]

However, the concept of "trade dress" may also serve as a source
identifier for consumers.  This can apply to particular aspects of
any good (usually not applicable to services) such as the shape
of a bottle, the smell, the color, etc.  If you created a new RPG
and published in in small LBB-size books, with black backgrounds,
and colored borders at top and bottom with a thin colored line in
the middle, calling it "Layabout", while its clear that you're not
calling it Traveller, or using a Traveller official (i.e, registered) trademark,
there is a very good case that you would be violating Traveller's
_trade dress_, because the appearane of the good is likely to cause
confusion to the consumer.  Even though it says lay about, it looks
like a Traveller LBB.

Back to map issue:
"Spinward Marches" _could_ be protected trade dress of Far Future's
Enterprises.  (IMHO, its a tough case, but its one not to be fought).
The actual of the image, well, I'd bet the house that it wouldn't
qualify for trade dress protection.  You'd have to prove that the
visual pattern of dots within hexes that represents the Spinward Marches
is so unique and well-defined within the RPG market, that anyone
seeing the same arrangement of dots and hexes would automatically
conclude that it was an officially sponsored "Traveller" product.
(If I was being paid to argue the other side, I could generate a lot
of arguments to support the position that the map itself would
qualify for trade dress protection, but it would be mostly hot air
and incredibly difficult and expensive to prove because survey
data would need to be taken - and trust me, you don't want to
have to pay for that.).

The more aspects, such as size, font, color, etc., that you mimic,
the more likely to get into a trade dress issue you are.  I could make
a map that looks exactly like the SM map in Darrians AM, or
in GT: BtC.  There is a plausible arguement that if I did so, even if
I placed every pixel myself, that the totality of what I was doing
was violating the trade dress of either FFE or SJG respectively.
Why?  The "look and feel" of everything together may be so similar
that it would confuse consumers.  (What you may have heard about
"look and feel" in Windows vs. Apple law cases were copyright fights,
not trademark, IIRC.  Different context here anyway).  I would certainly
make this argument if I represented either company and <ego> I'm
damned sure I would win the issue, if not at trial, then on appeal </ego>.

So, if you're still with me, what does all that mean?

GET PERMISSION for anything you distribute in the Traveller/GT field.

Though "Its better to get forgiveness than permission" may be reasonable
advice in some aspects of life, use this principle in the intellectual
property field, and you will pay.  Often, not just the damages you cause,
but TRIPLE the damages, because the government wants that kind of
behavior punished severely!

When I finish my Spinward Marches map, Marc Miller and Loren Wiseman
will be the first to know.  Until its finished, its not worth bothering them (in
case
they're reading).  Anything that happens after that will be will permission, or
it will be carefully redesigned not to infringe any trademark (copyrights not
being
an issue).

I hope this helps anyone's understanding of Copyright and Trademark issues.
- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 02:56:31 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

Antti,

Great post!  Short, clear, accurate and to the point.

I wish you would share these pearls of wisdom with us more
often.

I still have your reply to my post about knife-fighting saved.


- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 03:00:59 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

More weapon gear-head stuff!  I love it!
I don't know who's right, but I love it.


Mark Cook wrote:
[snip]

>         - Mark C.
>           Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
>           EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
>           Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR

Hmm.  Boston is not so far from Albany.  Can I come shoot pistols and
such one day?  Maybe we could make a Boston-TMLer roadtrip of it. ;-)

>           NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
>           Front Sight First Family member #1

I know what the NRA is, but what are the rest?


- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 03:15:29 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Frozen watch

"Zane H. Healy" wrote:

> Now considering the hazards of low berths, this brings up the question of
> how skilled at their jobs the Frozen Watch is.  One possibility could be
> that every so often a different set of the crew becomes the Frozen Watch.
> I would image that Senior Officers would be exempt from this.  I suspect
> this is also mainly found on Warships (I don't remember if any large
> civilian vessels carry a frozen watch).

The Frozen Watch has always been an interesting idea.
Who gets this duty?  I suspect volunteers, though a regular
rotational cycle might also exist.  Surely, there will be variations
in how different fleets use the FW, but here's the FW I want:

The ideal FW person is simulataneously the most highly skilled,
combat-tested veteran and the worst officer or NCO in the Navy.
These people are great at accomplishing the mission, no matter
what it is.  But they make their own rules.  Sort of like Fire and
Forget missiles.  Thaw 'em out, tell 'em whats up, and get the hell
out of the way!

They may have severe emotional problems.  Probably, in fact.
They may be hard-core headstrong bigots who only like to fight.
They may have lost everything in their life that was valuable to them.
They may have given up all hope of ever being ordinary.
They may be your only hope of survival.
They may well want to be frozen and woken for the thrill and
adrenalin rush of crises.
They may make the rest of the crew pee themselves.

Thats the frozen watch I want on my ship.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 16:54:40 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Gen Con

Is the game close enough in back ground that I can play it without any GURPS
Traveller experience?  I know GURPS, and I know traveller.

Dan Eveland wrote:

> I would like to invite all those attending the Gen Con Game Fair 1999 to
> take a look at my game listed in my signature when considering what to sign
> up for.
>
> Also, lets consider putting a list of TMLers together who will be attending
> and get together for a nice time.
>
> I was thinking at the Hilton restaurant and bar, temporarily re-names the
> Amber Zone! I'll buy the first round of Scout Brew (or the local-worlders
> beers, if you want to be brave).
>
> Tentative date: Saturday, August 7th, 1999.
>
> E-mail me or the TML. I will compile a list and post it every week until Gen
> Con.
>
> Dan Eveland
> develand@mindspring.com
>
> Personal:  http://www.daneveland.com/
> Traveller: http://www.daneveland.com/traveller/
> Goober:    http://www.daneveland.com/goobers/

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #712
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 5 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 713



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: BayCon pictures up
Re: Base Codes
Re: HIWG CD - Different Standards
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: Gen Con
Re: Freight Handling (was Re: Revenue & Profit...)
Re: Maximum ship-building output
Lost Keith Brothers Supplements
Re: First In Software?
Mayday Ranges was  Re: I like missiles
Re: detecting missiles
Re: Psionics
[none]
Re: Frozen watch...
Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)
Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)
Re: Maximum ship-building output
Re: Frozen watch
Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 09:53:18 +1200
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: Re: BayCon pictures up

Well done, Doug

Now I know who to watch out for if I ever get to the US.

> A couple of photos from the Great TML Vilani BBQ are now up at:
> 
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/baycon.html

BTW, first picture link seems broken to me.

Frankie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 10:15:34 +1200
From: rfields@actrix.gen.nz (Richard Fields)
Subject: Re: Base Codes

Way back in TML 633, Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com> wrote:

At 03:30 PM 5/15/1999 +0100, Stuart Ferris wrote:
>I would be obliged if someone could confirm the meaning of the following
>Base Codes:-
>
>C, E, F, G, H, J, P, Q, R, T, U, W, X
>
[snip]
G - Vargr Naval Base
H - (See second N below)
[snip]
N - Vargr Corsair and Naval Bases (although I have noted to change this to
an H, I don't know if this was something I did or something official I saw
somewhere)
[snip]

I have copies of notes using base codes G, H & N from HWIG dated 1994. G &
H were used for Vargr bases, while N was used for The Third Imperium and
it's Client States. Within any given Vargr state base codes C, H & G can be
found. In nonaligned worlds J & M.

Thanks for the clarification of difference between G & H. I'll have to
adjust my scribblings accordingly.


Regards,
Richard Fields
Sector Coord Meshan, a land grant of HIWG
Editor & Chief 'Meshan Chronicle' fanzine of HIWG (NZ)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Hollow/7510

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 18:10:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - Different Standards

>Actually, if I've followed this thread correctly, your plan to convert
>materials to cross-platform formats (GIF from MacDraw, etc.) is the best
>way to work this project.  In fact [ObTrav], this seems to tie in nicely
>with the Imperial Data Package (IDP) thread that is currently in
>progress.  In the 3I, major computer projects would probably be targeted
>at IDP-compliant formats, with regard neither to the peculiarities of
>other formats, nor to the efficiencies possible by targeting data to a
>specific format.  To use a late 20th Century Terran parallel, using JPEG
>and GIF formats, which are supported (to some extent) by both Mac and
>Windows OS, is preferable to using formats native only to one or the
>other OS (assuming that one wishes to reach the widest possible
>audience).

Assumign that my kids aren't leading me up the garden path, a hybrid CD can
be read by both Mac and PC. I was advocating putting the data in both the
original format, and a cross-platform format. (The original format to allow
easier changing, if that's what the user wanted, and assuming that the
author didn't mind.)

In the case of those MacDraw files, a 300 DPI GIF takes up a lot more space
than the MacDraw file, and wouldn't allow the user to do things like change
colours for objects, fill backgrounds, and so forth.

Ditto, but even more so, for my Shadows plans, which take up over 10 times
the space at 300 dpi GIF as they do in the original SuperPaint, and still
don't look as good.

A hybrid CD would allow the inclusion of both PC and Mac software, too.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 17:13:26 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

Steve Daniels wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> >         - Mark C.
> >           Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
> >           EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
> >           Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
> 
> Hmm.  Boston is not so far from Albany.  Can I come shoot pistols and
> such one day?  Maybe we could make a Boston-TMLer roadtrip of it. ;-)

Wrong Albany.  To shoot with Mark Cook, you'd have to participate in a
Pacific Northwest-TMLer roadtrip (which, IIRC, has been discussed).

ObTrav:  Confusion between Inthe (2410-Regina/SM) and Inthe
(2234-Glisten/SM).  Same name, _vastly_ different systems....

<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 18:44:20 -0400
From: "Dan Eveland" <develand@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Gen Con

From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 1999 5:54 PM
Subject: Re: Gen Con


> Is the game close enough in back ground that I can play it without any
GURPS
> Traveller experience?  I know GURPS, and I know traveller.

Then you know enough!


Dan Eveland
develand@mindspring.com

Personal:  http://www.daneveland.com/
Traveller: http://www.daneveland.com/traveller/
Goober:    http://www.daneveland.com/goobers/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 16:50:20 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Freight Handling (was Re: Revenue & Profit...)

>Date: Sat, 05 Jun 99 15:26:31 -0500
>From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
>Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
>
>Why does a cargo ship need to *dock* at a berth?  Much better to do
>it out in space where you have room to work.

(1) Safety and convenience (which really mean: money). Away from the port,
all the work would have to be done in vacuum and zero-g. The skill of the
stevedores is therefore limited by the lower of their Freight Handling,
Vacc Suit, or Free Fall skill, which will either slow down the process,
cost more money for expertise, or increase the number of accidents (or all
three).

(2) Time (which really means: money). In order to operate such a system,
you'd have to cross-load every cargo twice: once from the ship to the
lighter, and once from the lighter to the port (or vice versa). This takes
either time or an considerable number of lighters and crews, either of
which costs money. This, by the way, is why all modern ports are designed
to load to and from berths: lighters take too long. They are normally
restricted to situations where the ship or the cargo (e.g. power plant
turbines) in question is too large for the port facilities, as sometimes
happens in the Third World.

(3) Money (which really means: money). The grav pallets you propose would
work, but their cost is not negligible, especially since you have to let
them sit almost all the time for no return on your investment. The logical
extension of this concept is the LASH freighter, where the cargo stays
aboard the lighter and the lighter itself is loaded as cargo. This *is* a
profitable alternative, but only just, because you have to balance the
economies of speed against some very specific flight profiles and the cost
of having 50% more lighters than you really need.

That is not to say that your method isn't the right answer above a certain
size ship. Thanks, Eris -- now I'll have to figure out where the tradeoff
is. The 2/3 power relationship still applies: no way around it without more
specifics on hull configuration than GT (at least) provides. Maybe
dispersed hulls? Hmmm...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 18:29:23 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output

John wrote:

>> Well, a class 'C' starport _can't_ build starships, so it's annual
>> output is zero.
>
>By that arguement Earth can't possibly have spacecraft, since no Class
B
>starport exists.  Someone should inform the crew of the Discovery that
>they're not really in orbit!  The way I see it, a functional starship
could
>be produced as a special engineering project.  Cost and time would be
>enormously increased, since all components would have to be special
ordered
>and assembled individually, but it could be done.  Rules are a
guideline,
>not a straitjacket.

I agree with this statement, but I would put it a little differently.
There is NO general ship contractor and NO assembly facilities.  That
means that if you want to build a ship on a world with a Class C or
lower starport then you will have to be the general contractor yourself
and go out and find and negotiate with ALL of the subcontractors.  The
subcontractors will not be experts ship systems and will have to charge
more to cover training for thier personnel and for modifying thier scale
of manufacture.  Also you will have to provide a place for assembly
along with all tools needed for assembly.  Class A and B starports
already have the facilities and general contractor with the knowledge of
experienced subcontractors.

As an example: In the Dallas/Fort Worth Area, We do not have a port
facility or ship building but I Could find everyone needed to design and
build an aircraft carrier, but I could probibily get 4-6 for same price
in Newport News VA. (not to mention the cost of getting the thing to
water)
Charles

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 09:40:20 EST
From: Craig Brain <cjbrain@hotmail.com>
Subject: Lost Keith Brothers Supplements

I've been off the list for a while (I'm in Papua New Guinea at the moment) 
and I was wondering if anyone could tell me what the latest is on the 
release of these books?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 00:31:31 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: First In Software?

Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
>C'mon, we're talking about Micro$oft bloatware here.  For Win95, you
>need at _least_ a fast 486; I would recommend at least a Pentium-class
>processor.  [ObTrav: For _optimal_ performance, I would suggest a Model
>6fib or better....]
>
>OTOH, a quite serviceable Celeron 366 MHz or faster (with 128k of
>integrated L2 cache) can be had for US $500 or so, with an extra
>$250-$300 or so for a 17" monitor.  That's about half the price of an
>iMac....

iMac 233MHz <$699

Anyway, I think the point is that if someone in the Traveller community has
an old 486DX or Pentium machine that's doing nothing much, and is willing
to donate it, Rob will port his excellent software. Considering I've seen
old 486's <£200 GBP *new*...

So if anyone is in an IT department which is scrapping the old P1s or 486s
to upgrade to NT4 Service pack 4 for Y2k issues, please think of Rob if you
can get hold of one for next to nada.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 00:36:54 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Mayday Ranges was  Re: I like missiles

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:

>>Mayday (1980 version) had a few notes on using its movement with HG2.
>
>Hmm, I must have the wrong version of Mayday :(
>  What hex ranges do they suggest for the short/long bands?

'Two ships which have matched courses are considered to be at boarding
range. Otherwise all ships which are within 5 hexes of each other are at
short range. Ships separated by more than 5 hexes are at long range. Ships
beyond fifteen hexes are out of range and cannot fire.'

(c)Marc Miller/FFE 1980, p12 1980 release of Mayday

1 hex is 300,000 km (1 light second)
mayday turns are nominally 100 min, which is 5 HG turns.

Hope this helps,

Dom


- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 00:41:49 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: detecting missiles

 "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>What always amuses me in these missile debates is that the people who
>think they're defending Traveller canon by wanting ways to have impact
>missiles end up wanting to have missiles that are undetectable and maneuver
>at 50G...which gives it enough kinetic energy to destroy a warship in a
>single hit. So you've designed a weapon that can surprise and destroy
>small combat ships with no defence whatsoever; not very Travellerish
>to me...

I know what you mean - I like CT missiles, and the KKM/2300 det laser
developments but unless you reign in laser technology in Traveller they
don't work against a military target.

How hard would lasers have to be reigned in to make the game work as CT?
Would it just become 2300 Star Cruiser?

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 16:12:35 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Psionics

>
>In a message dated 99-05-31 22:40:28 EDT, you write:
>
><< Ever hear of psionics?
>
>
> Terry C
>
> All that is Gold does not glitter
> Not all who travel are lost  >>
>
>Hmm, what  MOS (is that even the right term, Military Ocupatinal Study?) for
>Psionic inerigator in the US Army?
>- -Stephen

Well, the US Military drew theirs from the Intell personnel, at least for
project stargate. Not interrogators, but "remote Viewers" (Clairavoyants).

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 16:26:51 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: [none]

>>This is definitely contradicted by canon. Throughout the Traveller
>>Literature there are references to the 'Standard Imperial Data Package';
>>plans on building everything from spanners to starships. Sort of a
>>real-life FF&S ;-)
>
>Which would result in very slow technological development.
[snip]
>
>Canon or not, I find it very, very hard to believe that the Imperium can
>maintain any kind of standardization without slowing innovation to a near
>stand-still.  The Imperium is based on creating a stable economy, and
>business in the technical world means getting your designs to market as
>quickly as possible.

The canon imperium is a very slow tech progression. TL 10-12 in Y0, TL
10-15 in 1050, Barely pushing TL 16 in a few coordination centers in 1116.

Megacorp sttability is based upon commanding a market share everywhere they
can. If you can reduce innovation, you reduce corporate need for in-house
innovation (whihch, if you can maintain desire, you can keep artificially
high... and hopefully outdo the gov't...). Realistically, the setting needs
some limiting factors on tech growth.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 11:49:49 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Frozen watch...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Sunday, 6 June 1999 8:03
Subject: Re: Frozen watch


>
>The Frozen Watch has always been an interesting idea.
>Who gets this duty?  I suspect volunteers, though a regular
>rotational cycle might also exist.  Surely, there will be variations
>in how different fleets use the FW, but here's the FW I want:
>
>The ideal FW person is simulataneously the most highly skilled,
>combat-tested veteran and the worst officer or NCO in the Navy.
>These people are great at accomplishing the mission, no matter
>what it is.  But they make their own rules.  Sort of like Fire and
>Forget missiles.  Thaw 'em out, tell 'em whats up, and get the hell
>out of the way!
>
>They may have severe emotional problems.  Probably, in fact.
>They may be hard-core headstrong bigots who only like to fight.
>They may have lost everything in their life that was valuable to them.
>They may have given up all hope of ever being ordinary.
>They may be your only hope of survival.
>They may well want to be frozen and woken for the thrill and
>adrenalin rush of crises.
>They may make the rest of the crew pee themselves.
>
>Thats the frozen watch I want on my ship.
>
>

I do like this criteria Bloo, it jells with so many things I imagine.  Now
I'd like to know, how long can troopies be kept in FW?  Is there a physical
limit ("If we don't thaw them out by tomorrow, they are unrecoverable,
Doctor!") or legal limits ("By statute 175.45 of the code, these troops have
been frozen for six days past their time.  This Captain, is a serious
breach...!").

I'd think there would be an upper limit.  Imagine being in FW for 10-years
say, and when you awaken, all your buddies have changed greatly, family have
died, your children don't know you, laws have been changed, you missed the
last two Star Wars sequels, your favourite TV show has been cancelled, etc.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 20:05:43 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)

>If I take my oil paint set, sit down and in front of the Mona Lisa,
>and paint a perfect replica, stroke for stroke, then I have 'copied'
>in common parlance, but NOT for copyright?
>
>How can this be?
>
>Copyright protects an author's right to reproduce his own
>_original_ work of authorship.  (author/artist are interchangeable,
>"author" is used in the US Copyright statutes).  So thats
>one work with reproductions.
>
>When I make a perfect replica, but its my hand that guides
>the brush, its _my_ work.  I am the mover of the brush,
>the author, the artist.  I have not 'reproduced' the work
>of the oringinal author in any mechanical fashion.  I pushed
>the paint brush.  So whatever I produce is mine.  And I
>own the copyright for it.

By your logic, then, I could sit down at my word processor and
type up a perfect replica of Marc Miller's latest rulebook for
the latest version of Traveller, or the text of the latest 
best-seller from Tom Clancy -- since it is my hands that worked
the word processor, what I produced is mine, therefore the 
copyright is mine. 

I don't think so.

What you have produced above with your paint strokes is commonly
known as a "forgery".

(Since I have no idea if your example was a serious illustration
of your view of the copyright law or a facetious example of how
someone else's interpretation is wrong, I am unable to draw any
further conclusions.)



     Glenn St-Germain § Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com § http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 03:52:01 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)

- -----Original Message-----
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>


>>If I take my oil paint set, sit down and in front of the Mona Lisa,
>>and paint a perfect replica, stroke for stroke, then I have 'copied'
>>in common parlance, but NOT for copyright?
>>
>>How can this be?
>>


This is a hypothetical example with now real life validity, as you can't
reproduce a picture 'stroke for stroke' (IRL) as you wouln't have the exact
fluidity of movement of the artist etc... (Nor could an artist produce an
*exact* replica of their own work...each act in it's production being a
unique event)

Also, Leonardo's copyright in the Mona Lisa expired about 400 years ago...

However, the copyright of photographs of the picture etc, reside with the
photographer or the organisation the photographer was working for etc.

>>Copyright protects an author's right to reproduce his own
>>_original_ work of authorship.  (author/artist are interchangeable,
>>"author" is used in the US Copyright statutes).  So thats
>>one work with reproductions.
>>
>>When I make a perfect replica, but its my hand that guides
>>the brush, its _my_ work.  I am the mover of the brush,
>>the author, the artist.  I have not 'reproduced' the work
>>of the oringinal author in any mechanical fashion.  I pushed
>>the paint brush.  So whatever I produce is mine.  And I
>>own the copyright for it.
>
>By your logic, then, I could sit down at my word processor and
>type up a perfect replica of Marc Miller's latest rulebook for
>the latest version of Traveller, or the text of the latest
>best-seller from Tom Clancy -- since it is my hands that worked
>the word processor, what I produced is mine, therefore the
>copyright is mine.
>
>I don't think so.
>


Agreed, as the text *is* an exact replica of the original (even if you use a
different font), unlike the picture.  The issue here is the copyright of the
*Idea* rather than the final product.

>What you have produced above with your paint strokes is commonly
>known as a "forgery".


It's only a forgery if you try to pass it off as the original...

otherwise its a 'reproduction' (or Collectors  Limited Edition, or whatever
you want to call it etc <g>)

<snip rest>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 22:52:40 -0400
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
To: <traveller@mpgn.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 05, 1999 7:29 PM
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output


> John wrote:
>
> >> Well, a class 'C' starport _can't_ build starships, so it's annual
> >> output is zero.
> >
> >By that arguement Earth can't possibly have spacecraft, since no Class
> B
> >starport exists.  Someone should inform the crew of the Discovery that
> >they're not really in orbit!  The way I see it, a functional starship
> could
> >be produced as a special engineering project.  Cost and time would be
> >enormously increased, since all components would have to be special
> ordered
> >and assembled individually, but it could be done.  Rules are a
> guideline,
> >not a straitjacket.
>
> I agree with this statement, but I would put it a little differently.
> There is NO general ship contractor and NO assembly facilities.  That
> means that if you want to build a ship on a world with a Class C or
> lower starport then you will have to be the general contractor yourself
> and go out and find and negotiate with ALL of the subcontractors.  The
> subcontractors will not be experts ship systems and will have to charge
> more to cover training for thier personnel and for modifying thier scale
> of manufacture.  Also you will have to provide a place for assembly
> along with all tools needed for assembly.  Class A and B starports
> already have the facilities and general contractor with the knowledge of
> experienced subcontractors.
>
> As an example: In the Dallas/Fort Worth Area, We do not have a port
> facility or ship building but I Could find everyone needed to design and
> build an aircraft carrier, but I could probibily get 4-6 for same price
> in Newport News VA. (not to mention the cost of getting the thing to
> water)
> Charles
>

Right.  The civilized way to get a starship would be to buy one from the
Class A port down the main.   But a pocket emperor, or an 'ethically
challenged freelance commerce raider' might not have that option.

John

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 04:02:10 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Frozen watch

- -----Original Message-----
From: Zane H. Healy <healyzh@aracnet.com>

>>I don't know if this has been addressed or where...but what's the purpose
of
>>the frozen watch on a large starship? Just curious...Now back to your
>>regularly scheduled thread already in progress :)
>
>Battle casualties, or casualties do to other reasons.  As such I'd image
>that the frozen watch would be found near the center of the vessel in one
>of the more secure locations.
>
>Now considering the hazards of low berths, this brings up the question of
>how skilled at their jobs the Frozen Watch is.  One possibility could be
>that every so often a different set of the crew becomes the Frozen Watch.
>I would image that Senior Officers would be exempt from this.  I suspect
>this is also mainly found on Warships (I don't remember if any large
>civilian vessels carry a frozen watch).
>
> Zane


Years ago I designed (using HG) a million ton Battleship, which (among other
things) carried about a *Division* of Frozen Ships Troops.  Under the HG
rules I think about a Battalion of which (in rough numbers) were doomed to
die on being thawed out....posthumous gallantry awards for each of course
<g>.

Ahhhh...the perils of life in the Marine Corps

regards

Matt

Matthew Bond
mgb@akira.swimternet.co.uk
www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- --------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
.To run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 22:20:47 -0500
From: raven@phoenyx.net (Carl D. Cravens)
Subject: Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)

On Fri, 04 Jun 1999 03:22:16 -0400, Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
>When I make a perfect replica, but its my hand that guides
>the brush, its _my_ work.  I am the mover of the brush,
>the author, the artist.  I have not 'reproduced' the work
>of the oringinal author in any mechanical fashion.  I pushed
>the paint brush.  So whatever I produce is mine.  And I
>own the copyright for it.

Bzzzt!  Wrong answer.  The law makes no distinctions among methods of
copying.  A copy is a copy, whether it was produced mechanically or by 
hand.

It doesn't even have to be a perfect copy. One porno magazine was 
successfully sued by another for duplicating one of their photographs, 
even though it was a different picture... similar setting, similar 
props, similar outfits, similar pose, different girls. It was ruled a 
violation of copyright because it was obviously a *derivative work*... 
their photograph was intentionally made to look like the competitor's 
photograph.

>So, ob trav., if I create (and I am) my own Spinward Marches
>map, as long as I do the drawing myself, I am not infringing the
>copyright of whoever may have published a previous map.
>Particularly fatal to the argument that I might be 'copying'
>is the fact that I can produce a map of my own from just
>the raw statistcal information of the sectors and UWPs.
>In fact, any map generated from the same data may appear
>identical.
>
>There is no copyright problem in anyone creating their own
>map of the Spinward Marches.

Unfortunately, this is incorrect.  The map is FarFuture's intellectual 
property and cannot be duplicated, by *any* means, without their 
permission.  If you can legally copy it without permission for personal 
use, then you can copy it without permission for resale... which would 
defeat the point of copyright in the first place; to protect the 
original creator's interest in the work.  If you are able to duplicate 
his work exactly and sell it just because you didn't use mechanical 
means to do so, there would be no point to copyright because there is no 
difference in the end result between your publication and the orignal.

The creation of a map from textual data is an interesting point... the 
data is still the creation of FarFutures, regardless of its 
presentation.  You couldn't take an alphabetized list of systems 
published by FarFutures and publish your own list sorted by star 
types... it's still the same data.  The map is similar... it's still the 
same data, just presented differently.  I won't say it's illegal, but 
I'm tempted to say that a court case would get ruled that way.

>source of the good/servive.  When you the consumer by a
>Tukera ship, you expect a ship produced by Tukera, not by
>Oberlindes.

No, you expect a ship *sold* by Tukera, not necessarily produced by 
them.  The point is to keep other companies from stealing your customers 
by putting deciving marks on their products.

>I hope this helps anyone's understanding of Copyright and Trademark issues.

I wish people who don't understand copyright would not try to "inform" 
everyone about it.

- -- 
Carl D. Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)
ANY system works with enough hammer thumps.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #713
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 6 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 714



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Frozen watch...
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: Guns in vacuum
New Site: World Maps
Re: Guns in vacuum
re: Reference to PDL's
Re: Frozen watch...
Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)
Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)
Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)
Re : Frozen Watch
RE: Shipping costs recap
BITS Website Update 6 June 99

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 05 Jun 1999 23:48:22 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Frozen watch...

The Roc wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> I do like this criteria Bloo, it jells with so many things I imagine.  Now
> I'd like to know, how long can troopies be kept in FW?  Is there a physical
> limit ("If we don't thaw them out by tomorrow, they are unrecoverable,
> Doctor!") or legal limits ("By statute 175.45 of the code, these troops have
> been frozen for six days past their time.  This Captain, is a serious
> breach...!").
> 
> I'd think there would be an upper limit.  Imagine being in FW for 10-years
> say, and when you awaken, all your buddies have changed greatly, family have
> died, your children don't know you, laws have been changed, you missed the
> last two Star Wars sequels, your favourite TV show has been cancelled, etc.
> 
I figure that any _regulatory_ limit on continuous FW service would be
based on medical considerations.  The other concerns (pertaining to the
universe changing around the crewsicle) may actually be a selling point
for FW volunteer service.  In addition, the likely financial incentive
(base pay, plus hazardous duty pay) would help gain volunteers for FW
duty.  However, I would expect that most FW personnel woud serve maybe
one of every four years in the freezer, with the rest of a service term
spent either in retraining or on active duty.

One possible game mechanic for post-CT character generation (or CT
variants that assume that failing the survival role repersents early
discharge, rather than early mortality) would be to allow players to opt
for FW duty during each term.    Any character who, during a term that
includes FW time, fails a survival rool by 2 or more (in a normally
non-lethal character generation system) actually _does_ shuffle off this
mortal coil (start over!).  However, for each term that includes FW
time, the character gets an extra mustering-out roll (on either table),
with a +2 DM on the Cash table, and a +1 on the Benefits table.  The
additional roll(s) for volunteering for FW duty can allow a character to
exceed the usual limit of three rolls on the Cash table while mustering
out.  This simulates both the additional money that a crewsicle can
save, and the additional honor and glory that comes from volunteering
for such hazardous duty.  Of course, this benefit only applies to
military personnel (Army, Marines, and Navy), since paramilitary and
civilian organizations are unlikely to carry a frozen watch.

Each term that a character serves FW duty subtracts one year from the
character's physical age (I assume that FW personnel spend one year out
of a term in the freezer).  No penalty would be taken for skills gained,
as the service in question would probably provide catch-up training for
recently-revived FW personnel.  Further, promotion would be unaffected,
as penalties on promotion would be a disincentive for crewbeings to
volunteer for FW duty.  (This also models the premise that those who
might otherwise be passed over for promotion, due to unsuitability for
peacetime service [despite being well-suited for combat duties], would
volunteer for FW duty to retain their standing on the promotion lists.)


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 21:55:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:

> > I'm not sure what prompts you to say this, Keven, but it's wrong.
> > No modern commercial powder (and virtually no military powders)
> > contain an oxidizer (not oxydant) as an integral part of their
> > composition.
> 
> Uh, yeah, they do.

OK, I defer to you on this.  Technically, the oxygen bound in the nitrate
is an "oxidizer", but it is insufficient to completely combust gun powder
without additional O2 from available air.

> > BTW, unlike black powder, modern "smokeless" gun powder does not
> > explode, it simply burns rapidly (and, yes, there *is* a difference.)
> 
> All an explosion is, is just a *VERY* fast burn.

That is just plain *wrong*.  An explosion (or detonation) is very
different from combustion (or deflagration) of gun powder, both
chemically and physically.

Energetic materials are divided into 3 distinct classes: explosives,
propellants, and pyrotechnics.  All three are exothermic redox reactions,
and are self-sustaining after initiation.  The energy released by explosives
and propellants is comparable, but the physical process is very different.

Propellant burning, or deflagration, is very rapid even combustion that
begins on the surface of the propellant and proceeds into the grain (or
other solid body.)

Explosive combustion, or detonation, involves a supersonic shockwave
(never present in a deflagrating body) moving through the explosive
material, causing spontaneous decompostion of that material.  Explosive
velocities vary, but are typically within the range of from 2,000 to
9,000 meters/sec.  By definition, this process is *NOT* "burning".

BTW, I'm citing TM 9-1300-214 ("Military Explosives") and FM 5-250
("Explosives and Demolitions").  Thus, as you can see, the U.S. Army
and Marine Corps agree with me, or visa versa.

> > (I have some small experience in this area.  Note the 2nd line
> > after my name in my .sig.)
> 
> The U.S. Army kept trying to tell me I was a small arms expert.  <shrug>

You probably were (or are.)  But I sat through weeks of training
at Camp Pendleton on the *big* ones.  As always, YMMV.

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 22:02:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com> writes:

> At 10:24 AM 6/4/99 -0700, Mark Cook wrote:
> >As a result, standard modern cartridges will either a) fail to fire
> >in vacuum, or b) behave like "squib" rounds if a small amount of air
> >has remained sealed inside the case.  The latter behavior may render
> >your firearm unusable, depending upon how far the slug travels into
> >the barrel before becoming lodged.
> >
> 
> So, assuming from your .sig that you are the correct one, how do very
> thin, thin, dense, and so on atomospheres affect standard guns? 
> Atomospheres tainted with sulphur?

That, I can't answer, other that sheer speculation.  In the current
U.S. arsenal, approved explosives undergo no less than 21 suitability
tests (sensitivity to impact, electrostatic shock, detonation test,
cook-off temp. friction, SUSAN test, gap test, flying plate test,
etc.) and approved propellants undergo 23 similar tests.  Both explosives
and propellants undergo heated vacuum tests (explosives at ~150 deg.
C. and propellants at ~90 deg. C.).  However, those tests are primarily
to determine storages degradation and not reduction of energetic
release.

FYI, the bulk of these tests are done by the U.S. Army at Picatinny
Arsenal and the remainder are generally performed by the U.S. Bureau
of Mines.

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 01:13:37 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: New Site: World Maps

On the heals of the MAC Vs. PC file format debate...  Using
a Hex editor, various graphic file editors, a text editor, and
a few files I discovered on the HIWG CD.... I built a new
page:  

Worlds of the Spinward Marches
http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Worlds.html

I've colorized the following maps and posted them to 
the site.  

Regina - Regina / Spinward Marches 1910
Dinom - Lanth / Spinward Marches 1811
Victoria - Lanth / Spinward Marches 1817
Echiste - Lanth / Spinward Marches 2313
Pysadi - Aramis / Spinward Marches 3008
Fulacin - Rhylanor / Spinward Marches 2613
Risek - Rhylanor / Spinward Marches 2712

Paul Schirf
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1999 22:15:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> writes:

> More weapon gear-head stuff!  I love it!
> I don't know who's right, but I love it.
> 
> Mark Cook wrote:
> [snip]
> >         - Mark C.
> >           Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
> >           EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
> >           Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
> 
> Hmm.  Boston is not so far from Albany.  Can I come shoot pistols and
> such one day?  Maybe we could make a Boston-TMLer roadtrip of it. ;-)

I assume you mean Boston, MA, right?  My club is just outside of
Albany, *Oregon*, not Albany, New York.  FYI, New York is a very
unfriendly state, from a firearms standpoint.  Mass. to Or. would
be a hell of a roadtrip!

Be that as it may, you're more that welcome to come out and shoot
with me.  Heck, I extend this invite the the entire TML.  Come to
Oregon and shoot a submachine gun!  Just bring your own 9mm factory
ammo and I'll provide the rest!  Jesse DeGraaf roadtripped all the
way up here last month for a big 2 day full-auto shoot we held,
and judging from the ear-to-ear grin he constantly had glued to
his face, I think he had a fairly good time.  (Jess, wanna offer up
any testimony?) :^)

> >           NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
> >           Front Sight First Family member #1
> 
> I know what the NRA is, but what are the rest?

SAF is the Second Amendment Foundation, CCRKBA is the Citizens
Committee for the Right to Keep and Bare Arms.

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 01:32:19 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: re: Reference to PDL's

At 07:55 PM 6/5/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net> writes:
>
>>  I was wondering where the rules for adding PDL's to a ship's design are?
>>I have the normal CT rules, book 5 (High Guard), Battle Lances and FF&S
>>(For TNE). I wanted to do a battle test with a friend and a new design for
>>both a Stealth missile and a Torpedo (at a loss for any other name). But
>>none of the base ship designs in FF&S or BL include PDL's (Unless we are
>>missing something). So if ya could help us out, be appreciated.
>
>Standard HG/CT lasers can be used in point defense against missiles
>already. TNE and Briilliant Lances just offered a more detailed laser
>design sequence where you could tailor a short range, high ROF weapon to
>operate in a PD role.
>
>So PDLs are just weapons with a USP rating slanted towards the short ranges
>and high ROFs.
>
>Dom
>
  We had noticed the ROF fire thing and were designing a Laser with a high
ROF (400 pulses) when we noticed that the rules say that the ROF only gives
a DIF MOD to the to hit roll. We were under the impression from others on
the list that one PDL could take out several missiles in one turn. That was
why we are wondering if we have missed something in the rules or have read
them wrong.

  BTW Windows crashed while I was putting this up and lost about 2 hours of
typing (at 2-3 words a minute). I had put up the Missile and PDL design
that we had made but now I don't have the time to re type it in.

  We are having trouble figuring some of the values. And I thought making
ships in Space Opera was hard. Heck FF&S makes those rules look like
child's play.


- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 00:33:15 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Frozen watch...

The Roc wrote:

> I'd think there would be an upper limit.  Imagine being in FW for 10-years
> say, and when you awaken, all your buddies have changed greatly, family have
> died, your children don't know you, laws have been changed, you missed the
> last two Star Wars sequels, your favourite TV show has been cancelled, etc.

Or imagine all your buddies are dead.
Your family is dead.
Your homeworld is a burning husk.
Everyone you touch seems to die.
You have some unwanted knack for survival, but it won't protect
your friends and allies.
You don't want to kill yourself, but you don't want to make new friends
or start over.  You're sure you'll just lose the new friends as well.
But you're damned good at what you do.

"Wake me when you think its hopeless, Captain.
Otherwise, I'll kill you.  If its 20 years from now,
fine with me."
 - anonymous Frozen Watch Voluneteer


- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 00:40:43 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)

cos 90 wrote:

> By your logic, then, I could sit down at my word processor and
> type up a perfect replica of Marc Miller's latest rulebook for
> the latest version of Traveller, or the text of the latest
> best-seller from Tom Clancy -- since it is my hands that worked
> the word processor, what I produced is mine, therefore the
> copyright is mine.
>
> I don't think so.

You misunderstand.  Perhaps my visual graphic metaphor is
confusing to apply to written works.

A word is a word, no matter how typed, formatted, rendered, etc.
Use my words, violate my copyright.  There is no "original" (a magic
word necessary for copyright to exist) way to write a letter, legally
speaking.  This is why fonts get no intellectual property protection.

Working a word processor is also not "authorship" as defined in
the copyright act.

> What you have produced above with your paint strokes is commonly
> known as a "forgery".

No.  It would be a forgery and/or counterfeit, if I asserted that my
work was the original artist/authors.  I used this example because it
was, or at least used to be a common way of teaching painting.


> (Since I have no idea if your example was a serious illustration
> of your view of the copyright law or a facetious example of how
> someone else's interpretation is wrong, I am unable to draw any
> further conclusions.)

My example was accurate.  Perhaps confusing in the writing context.
I was attempting to be brief and avoiding particular doctrines that
are primarily relevant to the written medium, such as the "Fair Use"
doctrine, library and archiving privileges (in US law), etc.


- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 00:47:50 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)

Matthew Bond wrote:

> However, the copyright of photographs of the picture etc, reside with the
> photographer or the organisation the photographer was working for etc.

Photography often involves some tricky doctrines and envelope pushing
of US copyright law.  Lots of gray areas.  What you say is generally acurrate.
But if I took a picture of just a person's painting, with no originality added
to (and what might qualify is definitely a gray area), and then distributed
the photograph, or copies of it, its possible that I would be violating the
copyright of the painting's author.  While the impact of photography
and what are the minimal elements are academically interesting, they're
not really suited for the TML.

> >>When I make a perfect replica, but its my hand that guides
> >>the brush, its _my_ work.  I am the mover of the brush,
> >>the author, the artist.  I have not 'reproduced' the work
> >>of the oringinal author in any mechanical fashion.  I pushed
> >>the paint brush.  So whatever I produce is mine.  And I
> >>own the copyright for it.
> >
> >By your logic, then, I could sit down at my word processor and
> >type up a perfect replica of Marc Miller's latest rulebook for
> >the latest version of Traveller, or the text of the latest
> >best-seller from Tom Clancy -- since it is my hands that worked
> >the word processor, what I produced is mine, therefore the
> >copyright is mine.
> >
> >I don't think so.
> >
>
> Agreed, as the text *is* an exact replica of the original (even if you use a
> different font), unlike the picture.  The issue here is the copyright of the
> *Idea* rather than the final product.

Dangerous language.  Only Patent protects ideas. Copyright protects expressions:

"original works of authorship fixed in a tangible medium (however impermanent)."

Ob. Trav.  Vilani Patents are more comprehensive than US patents and subsume
accepted ideas of copyright.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 02:02:55 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)

"Carl D. Cravens" wrote:

> On Fri, 04 Jun 1999 03:22:16 -0400, Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
> >When I make a perfect replica, but its my hand that guides
> >the brush, its _my_ work.  I am the mover of the brush,
> >the author, the artist.  I have not 'reproduced' the work
> >of the oringinal author in any mechanical fashion.  I pushed
> >the paint brush.  So whatever I produce is mine.  And I
> >own the copyright for it.
>
> Bzzzt!  Wrong answer.  The law makes no distinctions among methods of
> copying.  A copy is a copy, whether it was produced mechanically or by
> hand.

Not quite.
You're using the ordinary lay definition of copy. If my hand moves the brush, its
my "original work of authorship fixed in a tangible medium".  It is not the original
painter's work.  (Potentially, but its might conceiveably be a derivative work).

If I mechanically reproduce another authors work, by definition, I have
not added any orginality or authorship to the end product.  So, what
I've done can't qualify for copyright independently.  However, if I do
add sufficient originality and authorship to the end work, then that
end work independently receives copyright protection.  (Note, the
concepts of derivative works, and trademark issues easily begin to
confuse the issue at this point, and I'm consciously avoidinging discussing
them as that conversation isn't valuble to TML.).  Andy Warhol
added enough originality and authorship to his Campbell soup cans.
Lichtenstein did the same with many of his works.

A "copy" (layman's definition) is not a "copy" (legal definition) when its
an "original work of authorship" (also legal terms of art).


> It doesn't even have to be a perfect copy. One porno magazine was
> successfully sued by another for duplicating one of their photographs,
> even though it was a different picture... similar setting, similar
> props, similar outfits, similar pose, different girls. It was ruled a
> violation of copyright because it was obviously a *derivative work*...
> their photograph was intentionally made to look like the competitor's
> photograph.

Therefore, not original enough to qualify for copyright.
[As I mentioned in a separate post, photography issues
add siginificant confusion to the discussion of these issues,
to say nothing of digital medium.  Not to mention the fact
that it is clear that a great many, if not most, federal judges
that are often called upon to deal with these issues, do not
understand them adequately and make mistakes that are
not addressed by subsequent appeals of the parties.  I can't
name more than three judges I would trust to decide these
issues accurately.]

Selling, publishing, distributing the hand copied Mona Lisa from my original
post, is problematic on a whole host of other legal grounds (misrepresentation,
trademark, etc).  But the definitional issue is distinct.

If you have that cite, I'd appreciate it.


> >So, ob trav., if I create (and I am) my own Spinward Marches
> >map, as long as I do the drawing myself, I am not infringing the
> >copyright of whoever may have published a previous map.
> >Particularly fatal to the argument that I might be 'copying'
> >is the fact that I can produce a map of my own from just
> >the raw statistcal information of the sectors and UWPs.
> >In fact, any map generated from the same data may appear
> >identical.
> >
> >There is no copyright problem in anyone creating their own
> >map of the Spinward Marches.
>
> Unfortunately, this is incorrect.  The map is FarFuture's intellectual
> property and cannot be duplicated, by *any* means, without their
> permission.

Define the map.  The answer/legality of my actions (hypothetically
without consent) vary greatly based on the definition of the work.
(I contend that I would win the legal issue either way based on
the originality requirement, but that discussion isn't for the TML).


> If you can legally copy it without permission for personal
> use, then you can copy it without permission for resale

Incorrect statement of law (at least as it applies to US Copyright law.
The Fair Use Doctrine:

" . . . [T]he fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction
in copies . . . for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching
(including multiple copies for classroom use, scholarship, or research, is not an
infringement of copyright.  In determining whether the use made of a work in any
articular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include ---
(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a
commercial nature or is for non-profit educational purposes;
(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;
(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the
copyrighted work as a whole; and
(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted
work."



> ... which would
> defeat the point of copyright in the first place; to protect the
> original creator's interest in the work.  If you are able to duplicate
> his work exactly and sell it just because you didn't use mechanical
> means to do so, there would be no point to copyright because there is no
> difference in the end result between your publication and the orignal.

Selling it complicates the issue, greatly.  I intentionally avoided
the details of this issue.   The act of distribution implicates
other doctrines of intellectual property.  In many ways, its the poor
language of certain portions of the US copyright laws combined
with the trademark laws, that are responsible for the frequent
confusion of these issues.  If you confuse them, you're in the
good company of most of the US Supreme Court.

> The creation of a map from textual data is an interesting point... the
> data is still the creation of FarFutures, regardless of its
> presentation.

Data is not protected, generally speaking.  Certain types of
databases do qualify for protection, based upon the originality
of the database based on the collection of the information.
There is a recent database protection act, the details of which
I am unfamiliar with.  But, in general, the only real protection
for a database is its security/secrecy.

Creation alone doesn't qualify for protection of anything.
Never has.  Never will.  Even if unique to yourself.
For copyright, it must be (1) original, (2) your own work
of authorship, and (3) fixed in a tangible medium.

>  You couldn't take an alphabetized list of systems
> published by FarFutures and publish your own list sorted by star
> types... it's still the same data.

Correct, but for a different reason.  Sorting by stars wouldn't be
original.

> The map is similar... it's still the same data, just presented differently.I won't say
> it's illegal, but I'm tempted to say that a court case would get ruled that way.

Well, the US courts are sometimes categorically wrong on these issues.
Perhaps even often wrong.  So that has no value, academically speaking.

You're missing your best argument, even though its still too weak, IMO,
to win the legal issue:  a pictoral map that I create, based on the textual
descriptions of the Spinward Marches sector in, could potentially
be a derivative work.  To my knowledge, there is no case law to
support this, so the foundation is non-existant, but it might carry in
appelate court. But, fair use doctrine is going to cut you off at the knees.
Why?  The published fair use factors in a nutshell:
 - recreational purpose,
 - non-profit,
 - different nature (graphical, not textual)
 - small portion (only the text portion of the work the data is in that details
the aspects depicted in the map - vacuum, gas giant, navy/scout base, x-boat route,
sector, name) and not a substantial part of the whole book this data appears in
[The whole of the original work is the measuring stick]
 - zero effect on the potential market for the original work





> >source of the good/servive.  When you the consumer by a
> >Tukera ship, you expect a ship produced by Tukera, not by
> >Oberlindes.
>
> No, you expect a ship *sold* by Tukera, not necessarily produced by
> them.

A distinction without difference in this discussion.

>  The point is to keep other companies from stealing your customers
> by putting deciving marks on their products.

In effect, yes.


> >I hope this helps anyone's understanding of Copyright and Trademark issues.
>
> I wish people who don't understand copyright would not try to "inform"
> everyone about it.

Me too.  Wouldn't that be swell.

- --
Bloo, Esq.
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 17:13:06 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Frozen Watch

The Roc wrote :-
> I do like this criteria Bloo, it jells with so many things I imagine.  Now
> I'd like to know, how long can troopies be kept in FW?  Is there a physical
> limit (?)

[From my 'Medicine In Traveller' series, based on an article which
appeared in 'Traveller's Digest' way back when..]:-
Long-term Considerations 
1. Hibernation :- 
Fast berthing 60:1 slowing of metabolism. 
Chill berthing 600:1 slowing of metabolism. 

Hydration is required to permit long-term hibernation. 
The maximum safe period of time without fluid replacement is three 
days (so 180 days with fast berthing or 1800 days with chill 
berthing). 
Beyond this, 2D damage per day (60 or 600 days) until treatment or 
death ensues. 

With hydration :- 
Starvation : rapid weight loss (1kg/d for first ten days then 
0.3kg/d thereafter). 
- -1 from Str and Dex every two days until zero. Then -1 from End 
every week until death or feeding ensues. 
Multiply this by 60 or 600 depending on the hibernation type. 

With IV (or gastric) feeding :- 
Roll catastrophe check every year (infection at IV site, disconnection
and bleed, etc.) 

2. Vitrification <--- frozen watch are more likely to be 'corpsicles'
rather than 'iceberg lettuce'...
1 point of damage is sustained for every 25 continuous years spent 
'on ice'. 

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 16:39:26 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Shipping costs recap

Also a vessel pioloted by a robot or computer will respond in a limited
number of patterns when faced with similar situations.
I remember an old episode of Buck Rodgers where the gallant defenders of
Earth were being wiped out, they were using computers to handle the ships,
their enemies Draconians were not. The Earthers were getting smeared until
our hero Buck went to manual.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 09:40:30 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS Website Update 6 June 99

BITS - British Isles Traveller Support

The website - http://www.bits.org.uk/ has had a minor update. The T4
background Acrobat file in the Archive section now mentions Imperium's
demise and GURPS Traveller.

If you're going to a con this summer, why not run a Traveller demo? If you
do, or you want to promote Traveller, print off some copies of this Acrobat
file and let people find out a little about the game.

Dom (BITS Webmaster)


- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #714
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 6 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 715



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Cybergoths Website Update
Re: Missles and Mirrors
Re: HIWG CD - Different Standards
Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)
re: Reference to PDL's
Akins FF&S2 Spreadsheet (WAS: Re: Reference to PDL's)
Re: Guns in vacuum
Baycon pictures fixed.
Re: Frozen watch...
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: New Site: World Maps
Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)
Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)
About.com (formerly MiningCo.com) Now Has A Traveller Section!
Re: New Site: World Maps
Re: First In Software?
Re: New Site: World Maps
Re: New Site: World Maps
Re:missiles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 09:42:54 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Cybergoths Website Update

As I was plugging the BITS site, I thought I'd mention the following. My
own site has had more stuff restored. Now available again after more than 6
months absence are:

Kira's Story - an essay on playing real characters in Traveller.
Rob Flammang's High Guard to T4 format ship conversion system.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 04:49:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael A Newman <manst4+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Missles and Mirrors

If preserving the integrity of reflectivity of a mirror-surfaced missle
(during handling, firing, etc.) is a concern, then how about layering the
mirror under some other coating, ablative or not?  Even if both layers
eventually get ripped by the PDL, might not they prolong the average
missile's life enough that a barrage becomes useful? 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 09:51:29 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - Different Standards

Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> writes:
>Assumign that my kids aren't leading me up the garden path, a hybrid CD can
>be read by both Mac and PC. I was advocating putting the data in both the
>original format, and a cross-platform format. (The original format to allow
>easier changing, if that's what the user wanted, and assuming that the
>author didn't mind.)

That's correct, but I'm not certain that the Mac section can be seen by the
PC and vice versa. Not really an issue unless you have either both types of
platform, or you end up with say 300 Mb of data duplicated on both sides.

<snip>

>A hybrid CD would allow the inclusion of both PC and Mac software, too.

I'll dig out my Toast manual and see what it says about readability....

it's not clear but the manual does say 'you want to write discs that can be
read on a Mac and a PC, with the Mac data only visible to the Mac Users,
and the ISO data only visible to other users.' From what I remember from
disks like Riven and Myth II which are dual format, you can only see the
part whic corresponds to your OS...

Anyone know better

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 09:57:56 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)

raven@phoenyx.net (Carl D. Cravens) writes to Bloo:

>>I hope this helps anyone's understanding of Copyright and Trademark issues.
>
>I wish people who don't understand copyright would not try to "inform"
>everyone about it.

<joke>
Lock the ship down and run for jump! Looks like a hot war's brewing.
Bloo, do you have a case here?
</joke>

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 10:09:05 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Reference to PDL's

Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net> writes:

>>So PDLs are just weapons with a USP rating slanted towards the short ranges
>>and high ROFs.
>  We had noticed the ROF fire thing and were designing a Laser with a high
>ROF (400 pulses) when we noticed that the rules say that the ROF only gives
>a DIF MOD to the to hit roll. We were under the impression from others on
>the list that one PDL could take out several missiles in one turn. That was
>why we are wondering if we have missed something in the rules or have read
>them wrong.

This is a good point. Under the current rules, each turret could only act
against one missile attack in a turn (although under the description of the
technology it should be able to hit multiple targets). This may just be
game balance, or the impact of the certain death by laser radius hadn't
been considered. Bear in mind T4 doesn't have a working combat system
(unless you count Bruce's MCS or RPSCSv0.9).

>  BTW Windows crashed while I was putting this up and lost about 2 hours of
>typing (at 2-3 words a minute). I had put up the Missile and PDL design
>that we had made but now I don't have the time to re type it in.

Ouch! You have my sympathy - only way around that it regular saves and
hoping it doesn't trash the original file. There is another way actually
(which I took); use a Mac ;-)

>  We are having trouble figuring some of the values. And I thought making
>ships in Space Opera was hard. Heck FF&S makes those rules look like
>child's play.

Andy Akins has a very good Excel 5 spreadsheet for FFS design. (On the webring)
Andrew Moffatt-Valance has a similar one for T4 FS2 guns (this is at
http://www.bits.org.uk/)

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 08:36:37 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Akins FF&S2 Spreadsheet (WAS: Re: Reference to PDL's)

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> >  We are having trouble figuring some of the values. And I thought making
> >ships in Space Opera was hard. Heck FF&S makes those rules look like
> >child's play.
> 
> Andy Akins has a very good Excel 5 spreadsheet for FFS design. (On the webring)
> Andrew Moffatt-Valance has a similar one for T4 FS2 guns (this is at
> http://www.bits.org.uk/)
> 
The Akins spreadsheet for Excel 5.0 is also available on my Web site
(see my sig for the URL; follow the link to my ship design page).

I mention this not only to plug my Web site (and my ship designs), but
also to point out that I have found and fixed two bugs in the original
spreadsheet:

1.  The original spreadsheet made an error in calculating power
consumption by grav compensators.  (I have notified Andrew Akins of this
bug; it should be corrected in future versions.)

2.  While the original spreadsheet used the FF&S2 formula for
calculating frozen watch crew requirements, I found that the numbers
from that formula were off by a factor of 10^6 (see the "Frozen Watch"
thread for details).  I therefore plugged my modified formula into the
spreadsheet.

You will also find a link to the Traveller Gearhead Ring on my site.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 10:02:20 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

>I assume you mean Boston, MA, right?  My club is just outside of
>Albany, *Oregon*, not Albany, New York.  FYI, New York is a very
>unfriendly state, from a firearms standpoint.  Mass. to Or. would
>be a hell of a roadtrip!
>
>Be that as it may, you're more that welcome to come out and shoot
>with me.  Heck, I extend this invite the the entire TML.  Come to
>Oregon and shoot a submachine gun!  

Ahh now that would be cool.  Too bad I live in New Hampshire now.  But I
did spend 34 years in either Portland, Or or Vancouver, Wa.  Didn't know
about your group.
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 07:26:49
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Baycon pictures fixed.

My bad, the link for the first picture is now corrected.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 07:42:46
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Frozen watch...

At 11:49 AM 6/6/99 +1000, you wrote:

>I'd think there would be an upper limit.  Imagine being in FW for 10-years
>say, and when you awaken, all your buddies have changed greatly, family have
>died, your children don't know you, laws have been changed, you missed the
>last two Star Wars sequels, your favourite TV show has been cancelled, etc.

Ah, but picture the dedicated FW junkie, retires after forty years at the
age of thirty!
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 07:48:59
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

At 10:15 PM 6/5/99 -0700, you wrote:

>SAF is the Second Amendment Foundation, CCRKBA is the Citizens
>Committee for the Right to Keep and Bare Arms.

Bare arms?  Well, OK. But trust me on the sunscreen.

Sorry, couldn't resist it.  Mark, I may take you up on that invatation
someday...
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric flightless
 winged squirrel, coming through.."
                -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 07:53:15
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: New Site: World Maps

At 01:13 AM 6/6/99 -0400, you wrote:
>On the heals of the MAC Vs. PC file format debate...  Using
>a Hex editor, various graphic file editors, a text editor, and
>a few files I discovered on the HIWG CD.... I built a new
>page:  
>
>Worlds of the Spinward Marches
>http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Worlds.html

Bravo!!

Excellent job here, these could be printed out and used as great handouts
or as the basis of a pilot's guide.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 09:19:38 -0500
From: raven@phoenyx.net (Carl D. Cravens)
Subject: Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)

On Sun, 06 Jun 1999 02:02:55 -0400, Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
>You're using the ordinary lay definition of copy. If my hand moves the 
>brush, its my "original work of authorship fixed in a tangible medium". 
>It is not the original painter's work. (Potentially, but its might 
>conceiveably be a derivative work).

Your hand moving the brush is not a creative effort... it is a 
mechanical one.  The creative effort comes from your mind, and all your 
mind did was attempt to copy a painting.  The key word above is 
"original" and your painting is not.

>If I mechanically reproduce another authors work, by definition, I have
>not added any orginality or authorship to the end product.  So, what
>I've done can't qualify for copyright independently.  However, if I do
>add sufficient originality and authorship to the end work, then that

Your reproduction of a painting adds no originality.

>A "copy" (layman's definition) is not a "copy" (legal definition) when its
>an "original work of authorship" (also legal terms of art).

I don't see where the law differentiates between types of copies.  A 
copy is a copy is a copy.

>Therefore, not original enough to qualify for copyright.

And your copy of a painting is? I don't see the difference. The second 
photographer went through a great deal of effort to design the set, 
choose a costume, pose his model, take his photographs... yet it was 
declared to be an infringement on the first photographer's rights to his 
work.  How is it you think that by applying the paint to canvas with a 
brush involves a creative effort that was not present in the second 
photograph?

>If you have that cite, I'd appreciate it.

I'll look for it.  I believe that at least one of the parties was one of 
the major men's magazines, if you'd like to search for it.  (Just 
explain it to your wife *before* you start searching for names of men's 
magazines. :)

>> Unfortunately, this is incorrect.  The map is FarFuture's intellectual
>> property and cannot be duplicated, by *any* means, without their
>> permission.
>
>Define the map.  The answer/legality of my actions (hypothetically
>without consent) vary greatly based on the definition of the work.
>(I contend that I would win the legal issue either way based on
>the originality requirement, but that discussion isn't for the TML).

The map is the work presented on page 23.  It is a graphical 
representation of the data presented on page 22.  I think your only 
argument for lack of copyright of the work is the nature of the data, 
but I contend that the data is of a creative nature and subject to 
copyright.

>> If you can legally copy it without permission for personal
>> use, then you can copy it without permission for resale
>
>Incorrect statement of law (at least as it applies to US Copyright law.
>The Fair Use Doctrine:

Urk... I can't believe I said that. "Outside of Fair Use and trademark 
issues, if you can..."

>Selling it complicates the issue, greatly.  I intentionally avoided
>the details of this issue.   The act of distribution implicates
>other doctrines of intellectual property.  In many ways, its the poor
>language of certain portions of the US copyright laws combined
>with the trademark laws, that are responsible for the frequent
>confusion of these issues.  If you confuse them, you're in the
>good company of most of the US Supreme Court.

Outside of Fair Use and trademark issues, sale doesn't complicate it at 
all... copyright violation occurs whether you sell it or not if you 
didn't have the copyright holder's permission and your copy does not 
fall under the Fair Use clause.

>Data is not protected, generally speaking.  Certain types of
>databases do qualify for protection, based upon the originality
>of the database based on the collection of the information.

Surprisingly, it's not as protected as folks generally think. Look for 
Feist Communications of Wichita, KS vs some dinky Kansas phone company, 
concerning the outright copying of their phone book. Until this case, 
the courts had always ruled in favor of "sweat of my brow" defendants... 
they did all the work to compile the data, so they owned it. In this 
case, the court ruled that the white pages of a phone book contained no 
creative effort and no creative arrangement, so anybody could copy the 
contents.

The sticky point of Traveller system data is that it wasn't 
*collected*... it was *created*. Producing the data was a creative 
effort. And a map reflecting the data is simply another way of 
presenting it.

>Creation alone doesn't qualify for protection of anything.
>Never has.  Never will.  Even if unique to yourself.
>For copyright, it must be (1) original, (2) your own work
>of authorship, and (3) fixed in a tangible medium.

Which is why you can't copy the Mona Lisa (were it still protected by 
copyright)... because your work isn't *original*.  You copied it, even 
if the medium required painstaking effort to reproduce it.  As I said, 
the law makes no distinctions as to the *methods* of reproduction.

>Well, the US courts are sometimes categorically wrong on these issues.
>Perhaps even often wrong.  So that has no value, academically speaking.

Unfortunately... whatever the courts say is *right* until they change 
their minds. The courts interpret the law. Their opinions, even if they 
change them later, are the only ones that count.

>You're missing your best argument, even though its still too weak, IMO,
>to win the legal issue:  a pictoral map that I create, based on the textual
>descriptions of the Spinward Marches sector in, could potentially
>be a derivative work.  To my knowledge, there is no case law to

I wasn't concerned about this because the work already contains pictoral 
maps based on the textual descriptions.

>support this, so the foundation is non-existant, but it might carry in
>appelate court. But, fair use doctrine is going to cut you off at the knees.

>Why?  The published fair use factors in a nutshell:
> - recreational purpose,
> - non-profit,
> - different nature (graphical, not textual)
> - small portion (only the text portion of the work the data is in that details
>the aspects depicted in the map - vacuum, gas giant, navy/scout base, x-boat route,
>sector, name) and not a substantial part of the whole book this data appears in
>[The whole of the original work is the measuring stick]
> - zero effect on the potential market for the original work

Ya know... this really doesn't resemble what I recall as being Fair Use. 
In fact, it doesn't really jive with the excerpt you posted earlier in 
your message.

I see no mention of "recreational purpose" in the Fair Use law.

"...for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching..."

And about that "non-profit"... the whole phrase is "non-profit 
educational purposes".  Where's the "educational" part of your copying.

"Different nature"... the law doesn't say that it must be of a different 
nature... the law says that you must consider "the nature of the 
copyrighted work". Not the nature of mediums of the copy vs the 
original.

"Zero effect"... it doesn't have zero effect if you're copying it out of 
a friends book to avoid buying a copy for yourself.  If you're copying 
it out of a book that you already own and you aren't giving the copies 
to anyone else, then it does have zero effect.

And as I see it, since you've copied it to play a game and not to 
criticize, comment, report or teach, it doesn't fall under Fair Use.

- -- 
Carl D. Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)
It's not just a mistake, it's an adventure!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 09:01:51 -0500
From: raven@phoenyx.net (Carl D. Cravens)
Subject: Re: Copyright vs. Trademark (medium)

On Sun, 06 Jun 1999 00:47:50 -0400, Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
>to (and what might qualify is definitely a gray area), and then distributed
>the photograph, or copies of it, its possible that I would be violating the
>copyright of the painting's author.  While the impact of photography
>and what are the minimal elements are academically interesting, they're
>not really suited for the TML.

Here's an interesting case that I believe is still pending... 
photographer takes picture of very cool pyramidal building in the 
sunset. He sells posters. Architect sues for copyright infringement, 
because the visual image of his building is his intellectual 
property... the point of the poster wasn't a skyline, but that specific 
building (which is the only one in the shot, if I recall). The posters 
would not have sold with just any old building... and these posters 
limit the architect's ability to sell his own images of the building. 
(Of which there are none, so there's no prior "poster copyright" to 
violate.)

- -- 
Carl D. Cravens (raven@phoenyx.net)
Illusions of grandeur are not visions of greatness.
   -Dr. Ed Cole

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 15:40:56 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: About.com (formerly MiningCo.com) Now Has A Traveller Section!

. under Home>Games>Games-General>Roleplaying.  There's also a
guest intro by yours truly; I'd sent Dru a few Traveller links
with a suggestion of opening up a Traveller section, and he
responded by doing so, and asking me to write a sort of
introductory article.  My guest article, which is strictly my own
POV, it titled "Traveller, Then and Now", and available from the
RPG page.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 10:34:50 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: New Site: World Maps

Way Cool!

Paul Schirf wrote:

> On the heals of the MAC Vs. PC file format debate...  Using
> a Hex editor, various graphic file editors, a text editor, and
> a few files I discovered on the HIWG CD.... I built a new
> page:
>
> Worlds of the Spinward Marches
> http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Worlds.html
>
> I've colorized the following maps and posted them to
> the site.
>
> Regina - Regina / Spinward Marches 1910
> Dinom - Lanth / Spinward Marches 1811
> Victoria - Lanth / Spinward Marches 1817
> Echiste - Lanth / Spinward Marches 2313
> Pysadi - Aramis / Spinward Marches 3008
> Fulacin - Rhylanor / Spinward Marches 2613
> Risek - Rhylanor / Spinward Marches 2712
>
> Paul Schirf
> Paul@Schirf.com

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 12:05:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: First In Software?

>Robert Prior wrote:
>>
><<snip>>
>> >>
>> >> As to being available on a PC...  Well, if someone donates me a PC, I'll
>> >> code it, but I'm not investing my own money in one.  An iMac, maybe, but
>> >> not anytime soon, especially if the neo-cons get back in power.

>C'mon, we're talking about Micro$oft bloatware here.  For Win95, you
>need at _least_ a fast 486; I would recommend at least a Pentium-class
>processor.  [ObTrav: For _optimal_ performance, I would suggest a Model
>6fib or better....]
>
>OTOH, a quite serviceable Celeron 366 MHz or faster (with 128k of
>integrated L2 cache) can be had for US $500 or so, with an extra
>$250-$300 or so for a 17" monitor.  That's about half the price of an
>iMac....
>
>--
>AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
>"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

But I want an iMac, not a PC.

The original post was, essentially, me pointing out that I'd only convert
the software if someone donated me a PC as a development platform, and then
a brief amplification of the required system performance.

BTW, the neocons got back in. This has negative impact on my Traveller time...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 13:19:17 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: New Site: World Maps

>On the heals of the MAC Vs. PC file format debate...  Using
>a Hex editor, various graphic file editors, a text editor, and
>a few files I discovered on the HIWG CD.... I built a new
>page:
>
>Worlds of the Spinward Marches
>http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Worlds.html
>
>I've colorized the following maps and posted them to
>the site.
>
>Regina - Regina / Spinward Marches 1910
>Dinom - Lanth / Spinward Marches 1811
>Victoria - Lanth / Spinward Marches 1817
>Echiste - Lanth / Spinward Marches 2313
>Pysadi - Aramis / Spinward Marches 3008
>Fulacin - Rhylanor / Spinward Marches 2613
>Risek - Rhylanor / Spinward Marches 2712

And here we have a perfect real-world example for copyright. IIRC, Steve
Daniels and Eris are lawyers, so hopefully they can explain the legal
position.

All of these were taken from work that I created. My original GIFs were in
colour (and still show as colour in my GIF viewer, although Netscape shows
then as B&W.  My copyright notices, included as part of the Get Info window
for the files, seem to have been stripped off.

Regina is based on the map published by DGP. I colourized it and added a
couple of very minor details.  I was granted permission to do this, and to
distribute my version of the map, by Joe Fugate, who then owned DGP. The
current owner, Roger Sanger, has not rescinded this permission. (Nor has he
paid me the money DGP owes me for the Sydkai article and several equipment
sheets, but that's a separate issue.)

Dinom, Victoria, Pysadi, and Fulacin are based on maps published by GDW. I
colourized them and made some minor mods. Loren gave me permission to
distribute them free-of-charge, although the obligatory copyright and
permission notices seem to have been stripped off (probably when converting
the file from Mac to Windows).

Echiste and Risek are my own designs. Again, the copyright notices are missing.


The copyright notice for the modified maps read:

This drawing © Robert Prior, 19nn, based on a map © Game Designers
Workshop, 19nn. Used with permission.

(At least, this is what Loren asked me to include at the time. Joe wanted
the same thing with the DGP map.)

My own maps should have a copyright notice for just myself.



So the legal questions are:

1) Who actually owns the copyright to these works?

2) What should the copyright notice say?


This is not a trivial question, as I am trying to sell an article on
Echiste to Pyramid and I don't want it rejected because part of it has
previously appeared on the Internet. Ditto for Risek. And I suspect that
the rights to the GDW maps reverted to Marc, who will probably have his own
opinion. (Knowing Marc, he'll probably be OK with the drawing being
available, as long as the notice is correct, but he should be asked first.)

Paul, I'd appreciate it if you'd pull the Echiste and Risek maps until I
hear back from Scott Harding about my submissions. (Hopefully soon, as he's
had them for several months now.)  If Pyramid wants the articles, I'll
suggest that they get you to do the maps.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 13:19:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: New Site: World Maps

As I said in a previous post, these are my maps.

Did you notice that all the maps except Fulacin are draw to the same scale?
This makes it easy to compare different sizes of world.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 11:27:36 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re:missiles

>  We had noticed the ROF fire thing and were designing a Laser with a high
>ROF (400 pulses) when we noticed that the rules say that the ROF only gives
>a DIF MOD to the to hit roll. We were under the impression from others on
>the list that one PDL could take out several missiles in one turn. That was
>why we are wondering if we have missed something in the rules or have read
>them wrong.

It isn't in the rules as such, but neither are kinetic energy or HE or
nuclear impact missiles. The history is that in the post-FFS era, on the
old gdw-beta list, various people kept complaining (like you) about the
absence of impact missiles...and designing uber-impact-missiles that would
cripple destroyers in a single hit, and writing rules for them. So in
response, various others wrote rules for point defence and did the appropriate
calculations on rates of fire, hit probabilities, etc. (Very little of this is
archived, unfortunately.) So neither the missiles you want to use nor the
lasers
we want to use are in the rules; it just comes down to math and physics.
(The math being that a laser is effectively guaranteed to hit a missile within
a few thousand km, the physics being that if a missile can score a hit it
does a *lot* of damage.)

In the end, I don't think the TNE situation - if you add either fragmentation
("BB") missiles or chemical laser missiles - ends up that different in
*effect*
from CT/HG; there are civilian missiles that do a little damage, and military
missiles (nuke det-lasers) that do moderate damage, but no Giant Death
Missiles
as you would otherwise end up with if you allowed kinetic energy impact
missiles.

(I should mention in passing that the reason that KKMs turn into Giant Death
Missiles is mostly Traveller's reactionless drives - T-plates don't conserve
energy, so missiles end up with much more kinetic energy than they really
should; or HEPlaR, which is so efficient that it's like having an atomic bomb
going off behind your missile - a missile ends up with as much kinetic
energy as a fusion bomb would have.)

>  BTW Windows crashed while I was putting this up and lost about 2 hours of
>typing (at 2-3 words a minute). I had put up the Missile and PDL design
>that we had made but now I don't have the time to re type it in.

>  We are having trouble figuring some of the values. And I thought making
>ships in Space Opera was hard. Heck FF&S makes those rules look like
>child's play.
There's a very nice spreadsheet for FFS2 out there (Andrew Akins' site.)

Bruce
Bruce

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #715
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 6 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 716



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Frozen watch
Re: Guns in vacuum
re: Reference to PDL's
Re:missiles
Re: World info in Mora subsector
Re: Computer Technology
ARPC Full Auto Shoot (was Guns in Vacuum)
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies (long)
[ship] AuricTech F21-2 Light Transport (long)
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED What's in a name?
Re: Trav economics
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 16:43:08 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Frozen watch

	IIRC, Under LBB and MT rules, if you have a decent doctor, then the 
risk of death by low berth is eliminated (not the case in T4, where there's 
always a significant risk of death).   If you do not face a big risk of 
death, then frozen watch might be a good deal for you.   Subjectively, it 
would be like getting a good night's sleep, and waking up the next day with 
the pay for an entire cruise in your pocket.  You would have been separated 
from your friends and family on planet for that length of time anyway, so 
they don't suffer anything additional.    

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 14:48:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mark Cook <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

Doug Berry <dberry@hooked.net> writes:
> 
> At 10:15 PM 6/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
> 
> >SAF is the Second Amendment Foundation, CCRKBA is the Citizens
> >Committee for the Right to Keep and Bare Arms.
> 
> Bare arms?  Well, OK. But trust me on the sunscreen.

To paraphrase Snoopy, "Sometimes, I'm not a very good topist either." :^)

> Sorry, couldn't resist it.  Mark, I may take you up on that invatation
> someday...

The next time Jesse comes up, come with him!  IIRC, you two aren't
that far from each other, are you?  Last time he made hotel reseverations.
Next time, you guys can just stay with Lori and I!

        - Mark C.
          Instructor, Willamette Small Arms Academy
          EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
          Full-Auto Director, Albany Rifle & Pistol Club, Albany, OR
          NRA (Life), SAF (Life), CCRKBA (Life)
          Front Sight First Family member #1

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
 mark f. cook   *   shoestring graphics & printing   *  markc@ssgfx.com
 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330  *  http://www.ssgfx.com
 Phone: 541-745-5709                                  Fax: 541-745-5818      
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
   "Remember that a government big enough to give you everything
    you want is also big enough to take away everything you have."
    --Col. David Crockett; member of the Tennessee legislature
    (1821-1822/1823-1824); member U.S. House of Representatives
    (1827-1831/1833-1835); and Texas Hero of the Alamo (1836) 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 17:02:47 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: re: Reference to PDL's

At 10:09 AM 6/6/99 +0100, you wrote:
>This is a good point. Under the current rules, each turret could only act
>against one missile attack in a turn (although under the description of the
>technology it should be able to hit multiple targets). This may just be
>game balance, or the impact of the certain death by laser radius hadn't
>been considered. Bear in mind T4 doesn't have a working combat system
>(unless you count Bruce's MCS or RPSCSv0.9).

  I was thinking that under a house rule you could allow that instead of
the standard Dif mods you could maybe use it to attack multiple targets by
a minor change to the ROF chart on page #130 of the FF&S book. (Look below)

      RATE OF FIRE BENEFITS in SPACE COMBAT
(Shots per      (Dif Mods       (Shots per      (Number of           
30 min turn)    to fire task)   5 second turn)  Targets per turn)    FA mult
    10             NONE            1/36               1                 1
    50         -1 difficulty       1/8                2**               1*
   100         -2 difficulty       1/4                3**               1*
   200         -3 difficulty       1/2                4**               2
   400         -4 difficulty       1                  5**               4
   800         -5 difficulty       2                  6**               8

  *Standard note for Laser area size due to fire rate.
 **You may choose to fire at multiple targets up to the number rated for
the current ROF of the weapon instead of gaining the benefits of the
Difficulty Modifiers. If weapon is targeted at less then the max number of
targets you may modify the Diff mod of one or more targets by the
difference. As an Example. If your Laser array has a ROF of 400 pulses and
you target only two targets you have the choice of -1 diff on each target
or a -2 diff on one target. Also all targets targeted by the Laser have to
be within 20 degrees of each other from the focal point of the Laser array.
(i.e. if targets are 1 hex away all targets have to be in the same hex at
range of 3 hexes they have to in adjacent hexes. Refer to diagram 1a below.

  Diagram: 1a Arc for multiple targets by one laser.

      * * * * *
       * * * *
       * * * *
        * * *        
        * * *
         * *
         * *
          *
          *
          ^ 
     Firing ship


  Tell me what you think?

>Ouch! You have my sympathy - only way around that it regular saves and
>hoping it doesn't trash the original file. There is another way actually
>(which I took); use a Mac ;-)

  Well i would use my Amiga, but it's hard to find modems that work with it
here and it is too slow (Old 2000 with 16Mhz CPU). Now if I could just
afford one of them 070 accelerators for under $100, then I might switch.

>
>Andy Akins has a very good Excel 5 spreadsheet for FFS design. (On the
webring)
>Andrew Moffatt-Valance has a similar one for T4 FS2 guns (this is at
>http://www.bits.org.uk/)

  We don't have excel 5 (I have Excel 3 and it don't work)


>
>Dom


- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 17:39:34 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re:missiles

At 11:27 AM 6/6/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>It isn't in the rules as such, but neither are kinetic energy or HE or
>nuclear impact missiles. The history is that in the post-FFS era, on the
>old gdw-beta list, various people kept complaining (like you) about the
>absence of impact missiles...and designing uber-impact-missiles that would
>cripple destroyers in a single hit, and writing rules for them. So in

  But there is rules for making Nukes and HE and KE missiles. 
 Nukes are on Page #143 Item 6
 HE and KE starting on page #137

>response, various others wrote rules for point defence and did the
appropriate
>calculations on rates of fire, hit probabilities, etc. (Very little of
this is
>archived, unfortunately.) So neither the missiles you want to use nor the
>lasers
>we want to use are in the rules; it just comes down to math and physics.
>(The math being that a laser is effectively guaranteed to hit a missile
within
>a few thousand km, the physics being that if a missile can score a hit it
>does a *lot* of damage.)
>
>In the end, I don't think the TNE situation - if you add either fragmentation
>("BB") missiles or chemical laser missiles - ends up that different in
>*effect*
>from CT/HG; there are civilian missiles that do a little damage, and military
>missiles (nuke det-lasers) that do moderate damage, but no Giant Death
>Missiles
>as you would otherwise end up with if you allowed kinetic energy impact
>missiles.
>
>(I should mention in passing that the reason that KKMs turn into Giant Death
>Missiles is mostly Traveller's reactionless drives - T-plates don't conserve
>energy, so missiles end up with much more kinetic energy than they really
>should; or HEPlaR, which is so efficient that it's like having an atomic bomb
>going off behind your missile - a missile ends up with as much kinetic
>energy as a fusion bomb would have.)

  Well the races (or Ethnic groups) that use these don't have reaction less
drives (No one does) and only two of them have any kind of Gravitics
technology. So they have to make due with other types of tech (I.E. Soviet
vs Nato).

  Note my CT games roughly use the CT story line, primarily we just use the
Rules not the story plots. I just incorporate what Plots and Adventures
that I like or can use into my campaign, which I am sure a lot of the
Traveller GM/Players do, since the Traveller story line isn't the most
stable (IOW consistent) since they switched to MT (then TNE and T4 and then
now GURPS)

>
>Bruce
>Bruce
>
>
>
>
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 17:59:42 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: World info in Mora subsector

On 06/03/99 14:31:13 Terry Mixon wrote:
>
>When I was working on the Mora subsector, I found that Far Trader 
>was missing info on Jokotre, Grille and Dojodo. Here is what I 
>can work out.
>
>Hex    World     PR    TL    Port   WTN     Trade Classes   Alg
>
>3024   Jokotre    8     7     IV     4.5                    Im
>3026   Grille     3     7      I     2.0     Ex Lo Ni       Im
>3223   Dojodo     3     7    III     2.5     Ex Lo Ni       Im
>
>Would someone be kind enough to confim that for me and let me know 
>about asteroid belts and gas giants?

I don't know why they wouldn't be in FT, they're in my draft copy of that chapter. <Shrug>

In any case, your stats are correct except that Dojodo is also an Ic world on account of its 
trace atmosphere. 

		Planetoid		Gas
		Belts			Giants
Joktre	1			0
Grille	0			1
Dojodo	1			0

Thanks again for putting together all this trade route info.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
co-author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 19:48:29 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Computer Technology

In a message dated 99-05-21 07:38:34 EDT, you write:

<< 1 has both finite tape size and finite number of states
 2. has an infinte number of states, but a finite tape.
 3. has a finite number of states but at an infinte tape size
 4. has both infinite tape and infinite states.
 
 List the machines in order of ability and state why >>

4,3,2 they all can store an infinate amount of stuff.
1, it is limited.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 17:22:42 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: ARPC Full Auto Shoot (was Guns in Vacuum)

> Be that as it may, you're more that welcome to come out and shoot
> with me.  Heck, I extend this invite the the entire TML.  Come to
> Oregon and shoot a submachine gun!  Just bring your own 9mm factory
> ammo and I'll provide the rest!  Jesse DeGraaf roadtripped all the
> way up here last month for a big 2 day full-auto shoot we held,
> and judging from the ear-to-ear grin he constantly had glued to
> his face, I think he had a fairly good time.  (Jess, wanna offer up
> any testimony?) :^)



I'd meant to do this earlier, but kept forgetting, postponing, etc....

I do believe that road trip (except the solo driving of course) was the most
fun I've ever had with my clothes on.  For everyone else on the list, the
event that I drove from California to Oregon for was the "Albany Rifle and
Pistol Club Annual Spring Full Auto Shoot".  Mark was kind enough to invite
me after some thread earlier this year where I mentioned that I shoot a lot.
The ARPC SFAS is run by Mark, who is the full auto director of the club.
The event was absolutely outstanding.  I'm not sure exactly how many owners
(of NFA devices) were there, but I'd hazard it was pushing 100 or more.  The
overall attendance was over 300 spectators/day IIRC.  Some people have
likened this event to the Knob Creek of the West.  It's actually better than
that because you're guarenteed to be able to shoot if you so desire.  There
were two rental "businesses" there (for lack of a better term) wherein you
could rent one of their weapons for a magazine's/belt's worth of ammo.  One
of their employees would stand with you while you were on the firing line.
One of the two businesses had a ton of classic full auto weapons, while the
other had all of the modern, state of the art stuff.  This one is the one
that I rented the HK G36K from.  Oh mama, what a sweet piece of hardware
that is!!!  However, at $10 for 30 rounds of fun, I only shot that once.
The rest of the time I was shooting all of Mark's toys while he was busy
running the show.  I practically had unlimited access to his weapons since
he and his wife Lori were busy with making sure the event ran smoothly.  Too
bad I didn't have more ammo.  I'd only had enough ready funds to bring half
a case (500rnds) of 9mm, and another 500 rounds split between .308 and .223.
I could easily have shot two to three times that!!

I'd like to take this opportunity to publically thank Mark and Lori Cook for
their wonderous hospitality and generosity while I was up there.  I had a
truly wonderful time and I DEFINATELY plan on being there next year.  Just
gotta' bring more ammo :)  I whole-heartedly recommend to all the TML'ers
out there that you make every effort to attend next year's shoot, or the one
in December.  If you live within 13-15hrs driving time of Oregon, I EXPECT
you to be there :)

Best,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 20:15:28 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

In a message dated 99-05-21 09:39:38 EDT, you write:

<< People don't explode in vacuum.  If you have a lung full of air, you might
 rupture your lungs when the otside pressure drops to zero, but not bursting
 eyeballs, etc., as shown in Outland. >>

Hmm, I think that there is something on NASA's site that has how it realy 
happens.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 01:21:55 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies (long)

>>TL10, J2 freighters larger than 3000DT are a waste of money!

<snip>

>If you're still not tired of it, however, run the numbers again using only
>bulk cargo. I think you'll find the optimum size is considerably larger.
>Hence the term, "bulk freighter."

I ran the numbers for freighters dedicated to each type of cargo, as well as the
general case at both GTL10 and GTL12. These are the "optimal" sizes I calculated
(all ships very similar in design to previous post).

Figures in Brackets are (Profitability, first year ROI, Break-even Load)

GTL10 Freighters (optimal m drive around 0.57 G) :

Mixed Load  - 2500 DT (P 54%, ROI 19%, B/E 65%)
Liquid Bulk - 4000 DT (P 58%, ROI 21%, B/E 63%)
Dry Bulk    - 4000 DT (P 56%, ROI 20%, B/E 64%)
Mixed Load  - 2500 DT (P 54%, ROI 19%, B/E 65%)
Container   - 2500 DT (P 52%, ROI 19%, B/E 66%)
RO/RO       - 2000 DT (P 49%, ROI 17%, B/E 77%)
Break Bulk  - 1000 DT (P 33%, ROI 12%, B/E 75%) 

 
GTL12 Freighters (optimal m drive around 1.0 G):

Liquid Bulk - 4000 DT (P 73%, ROI 27%, B/E 59%)
Dry Bulk    - 3500 DT (P 71%, ROI 26%, B/E 59%)
Mixed Load  - 2500 DT (P 69%, ROI 25%, B/E 59%)
Container   - 2000 DT (P 66%, ROI 24%, B/E 60%)
RO/RO       - 1500 DT (P 63%, ROI 23%, B/E 61%)
Break Bulk  - 1000 DT (P 47%, ROI 17%, B/E 68%) 


These figures all assume standard Cargo density, 95% loading, 400 Cr/DT/PC, &
exclude loss premium. 


<snippage about cargo handling limits>

>I'm sure there are economies that can be achieved, and I'm working on that
>very problem right now for GT: Starports and GT: Starships both. In the
>meantime, I'll be interested to see what solutions you come up with.

Well...

I have tried Ships that split in two so that it can occupy two berths at once
and unload/load twice as fast (i.e. a 2000 DT main ship & a self contained
driveless 1000 DT cargo hold).  This proved marginally less profitable, but an
interesting design, that could be made to work, and would save money during
trade lows.

I have tried having a ship that splits into a J-drive section and a non-jump
cargo section.  The J-drive section separates on entry to the system and drives
for the next jump point. The cargo section goes down to the high port, unloads &
loads, and then reconnects to the j-drive section at the jump exit point.  The
benefit is that the j-drive section only needs a very small maneuver drive, so
the cargo section is faster, for the same investment.  This works out at very
similar profit levels to a standard ship.

Taking this one stage further, on a dedicated trade route between two planets,
there exists a very profitable possibility.  You buy one jump section (the most
expensive bit) and three cargo sections. At any time you have one cargo section
at the planet at each end of the route, and one in jump. The ship exits jump at
a predefined rendezvous point. The j-section and inbound cargo section detach.
The j-section then docks with the waiting outbound cargo section and then jumps
back.  The j-section therefore only spends a few hours in system, and you are
getting the maximum use of the most expensive part your investment - the
j-drive. Each cargo section has a smaller m-drive than a standard ship, as it
only has to get from jump point to high port and back before the j-section
returns, in a minimum of 13 days.
I can get up to nearly 50 jumps a year using this method, and ROI increases by
at least half.
Am I allowed to do this? I can't find a minimum time between jumps in GT.

I keep trying, I will find a way...


Passenger Liners (coming soon):  I have just started on passenger liners. I see
that there will be problems with passenger rates.  These are very profitable
indeed, even at low utilization levels. Do you have any suggestions to cap these
at a reasonable level?

Jump Masking - I notice that using the figures from "First In" that jump masking
time will reduce significantly over the FT figures (based on "Scouts"). Are
there any plans to update them?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 19:49:55 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: [ship] AuricTech F21-2 Light Transport (long)

AuricTech Shipyards is proud to unveil the F21-2 light passenger liner:

AuricTech Shipyards F21-2 Light Transport

Tons: 100 std (SL Short Rounded Cylinder Hypersonic) 
Dimensions: 19.8 m x 9.9 m x 9.9 m
Volume: 1400 m3
Cargo: 11.32 std (1 hatches, Hdl: 1 x 5 t) 
Mass (L/C): 420 t / 242 t 
Maintenance Points: 8
Passengers High/Med: 0/21 
Crew: 2 / 3 
Frozen Watch: 0
Cost: 17.837 MCr   (Cost Multiplier .9 due to mass production)
Tech Level: 15
Size: 8 

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 3 x Comp (CM: .6 CP: 1.67).
Terrain following sensors (TF:570, NOE:190). No bridge.
Communications: 1 x Radio (500 kkm, 0.17 MW). 1 x Laser (1,000 AU, 0
MW).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6 mkm], 0 MW). 1xAEMS (11 [.16 mkm] LP, .05
MW).
Survey/Science: None
ECM: None
Signatures: Vis:-1, IR: -0.5 (-0.5 at 54 MW, -1 at 5 MW), Act:0, Neu:-1,
Grav:-1

Performance 
2 Jump (10 std/pc fuel) 
1 / 1.7 Maneuver (Thruster: 10 MW)
1 / 1.7 Contra-grav (7 MW)
1915 kph/3200 kph Atmosphere Maximum 
1436 kph/2400 kph Atmosphere Cruise 
1 Power (Fusion: 54.46 MW,1yr) 
0 Battery
20.4 Fuel (Scoop:5 / No purif) 
24/0/0/6 Accomodations (SmStRoom/LargeStRoom/Low Berth/Emgy Low Berth) 
96 Life Sup. (Type:Standard, Normal Food/Storage) 
1 G-Comp 
0 [20] Armor, 8 Structure 

Weapons:  None

Features:
1 x Airlock 
1x Ship's locker (.05 std ea.) 
1 x Armory (.11 std ea.) 
1 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 24 each) 

Small Craft:  None

Backups 
Drives: None 
Screens: None
Communications: None 
Sensors: None
ECM: None 
Power & Fuel: None 

Crew Details 2 x Maneuver. 1 x Medical.

Designer's Notes:

This ship design is, we freely admit, a brutally minimaxed effort to
manipulate the fixed rates for passenger and freight traffic.  By using
small staterooms for middle passage, the gross income is just under Cr
4000 per displacement ton of passenger space.  Even subtracting the Cr
2000 for life support, plus the requirement for galley, food storage,
and baggage space, that still leaves nearly Cr 3000 per dton.  This is
50% greater than the default value for speculative trade. Additionally,
since staterooms require much less mass per dton, the F21-2 requires
smaller thruster and CG drives than most ships of its size.  Smaller
maneuver drives allow a smaller power plant, both of which allow for a
less-expensive vessel.  These factors make the F21-2 profitable, using
standard T4 assumptions, even when operated at only 50% capacity.  At
80% capacity, the F21-2 can make an annual profit sufficient to pay off
the down payment in approximately two standard years.

By concentrating on the middle passage traffic, a line operating these
ships can fill a market niche similar to coach-only airlines on modern
Terra.  While passengers travel in less comfort than high passage
allows, middle passengers have two incentives to travel on such ships: 
while the stateroom is small, it _is_ private; and there is no
possibility of a high passenger bumping a middle passenger off the
manifest at the last minute.

AuricTech Shipyards has [IMTU], as of 1103 IE, contracted to sell 20 of
these ships to Thermopylae Lines, a cargo and passenger line operating
primarily in the Vilis subsector of the Spinward Marches.

[IMTU note:  Thermopylae Lines was founded by my main PC's wife, who, as
noted in previous posts, came into obscene amounts of money under, shall
we say, "interesting" circumstances.]

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 10:58:07 +1000 
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED What's in a name?

Trouble finding a name for a sci-fi campaign? Want something that sounds
cool? 

Well here's a patented system that can provide hours of joy for the entire
family. Take a name, any name, and simply either swap the vowels around or
substitute other vowels.

Let's take a common variety name of say, Adolf Hitler. Swap the vowels and
it becomes Odilf Hetlar. Cool huh? Or, how about simply substituting other
vowels? Udelf Hatlor?

Other famous figures of fun given the vowel treatment are; 

William Clinton becomes Williom Clontin or Walliem Clentun.
Anthony Blair becomes Onthnany Bliar or Enthuny Blaur. 
Robert Dole becomes Rebort Delo or Rubort Dule

But let's not just be limited by political types. Why not trawl the depths
of fiction. 

Doctor Nu becomes Doctur No (hmm not really that different) or Dacter Nu
James Bond becomes Jemos Band
Peter Pumpkin Eater becomes Petur Pimpken Aeter or Pitor Pampken Iator

Wow, feel like a cigarette after that? 

If that doesn't help a naming crisis, then my name's not Macheul Heghis. 

Michael Hughes

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 22:17:34 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Trav economics

>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output - try #2

>> If there's nothing canon, I'd appreciate some rules of thumb that someone
>> might have found workable.  I have no idea where to begin.
>>
>
>Well, mostly, the problem is that you've hit one of the _hard_ problems
>of Traveller, specifically econometric modelling of the Traveller
>Universe.

The economic facts in the Traveller universe can only be accepted if you
assume that chronic crises of underdevelopment are possible in capitalist
economies. If everything worked in the pollyanna ^k^k^k^k^k^k accepted
manner of 'conventional' neoclassical economics, then the Traveller
universe just wouldnt have kept it's radical mix of hi- and lo-tech worlds
over hundreds of years. Development would happen, because developed
economies are just so much more profitable.

<stuff snipped>

>What this means, in the overall picture, is that unless the Fosey yards
>are getting some gigunda subsidies from somewhere, they'll go broke
>faster than MC Hammer.

Not neccessarily.

To simplify things, imagine that these 2 worlds - one TL11 and one TL15 -
are the only shipyards around. TL11 jump-2 freighters arent too bad
compared to TL15 jump-2 freighters, but TL11 warships really suck when
compared to TL15 warships.

Therefore, it makes sense for the TL11 world to build all the freighters,
and do a lot of fetching and carrying for the TL15 world. In return, they
get a small number of TL15 warships, which still gets them more defense
capability than by building their own warships. The TL15 economy builds
warships for both worlds, and invests in more bleeding-edge research
(seeing how it doesnt have to dedicate any resources to all that fetching
and carrying).

>
>This is why it's hard to figure this out. Generally a great deal of the
>economic activity that is depicted in the OTU has no business existing.
>(such as TL-11 starship yards on pop 6 planets in the same subsector as
>TL15 ones on pop A planets...it's _so_ much cheaper to buy your TL11
>starship in the TL15 system)

The first thing that saves TL11 shipyards is that it may not be that much
cheaper to build radically lower-tech goods in a high-tech world. Hi-tech
workers presumably get paid more, for a start, and higher tech worlds may
have emission limits and such for heavy industry like building starships. I
am also not convinced that you could build radically lower-tech goods than
a world supports - does the infrastructure exist to work Crystaliron when
then entire economy has moved over to Superdense, for example. Similarly,
would the engineers and technicians be able to buld the primitive fusion
plants ? I think what would happen is similar to the motorised dhows that
ply the short haul routes in the Indian ocean - the hi-tech economies build
the outboard motors and maybe the GPS systems, while the rest are built at
the lo-tech local economies.

The other thing that saves the TL11 world's economy is exchange rates. A
low-tech world will trade a lot of stuff it can make for a small amount of
really, really neat hi-tech goods. If the high-tech world can use the TL11
stuff, then letting their lo-tech needs be met by the lo-tech world will
let them specialise in what they are good at - bleeding edge stuff.

Note that this will have big, big impacts on just about everything. A
TL11/GT10 freighter should be a small percentage of 'sticker cost', if paid
for in very hard Imperial Credits (which can of course be used to buy
TL15/GT10 goods). This will in turn drive freight rates down, if freighters
get paid in hard Imperial credits.

The way I handle this in my campaign (which is set in District 268) is to
say that 'book' prices for GT 10 goods are correct, but to double prices
for GT11 goods and triple them for GT 12 goods.

To my knowledge, we never went into this in GT Far Trader. If you want to
put exchange rates into it, assume 'standard' jump 2/3 freight is paid for
in TL10 credits, but that 'express' freight is paid for in GT 11 credits
(ie costs about 80% more).

We would need to build some GT9 freighters, to determine if a GT9 jump-1
freighter can compete with GT10 jump-2 and -3 freighters, if it gets a cost
advantage of 40% due to being bought with 'soft' GT9 credits.

I'll also reprint from an old post of mine about trade from lo-tech to
hi-tech worlds.

You have two excellent target markets on hi-tech worlds for lo-tech goods.
The first is the fashion market - with good enough marketing, the lo-tech
can be sold as a plus. Phrases like 'hand-made', 'primitive' and 'genuine'
should be generously splattered around the brochures. Sure, the modern
equivalent is cheaper, lighter, more effective and doesnt get
creepy-crawlies living in it, but hell, since when has mere efficiency
mattered in fashion ?

The second market is the bleeding-heart market. The example I'm thinking of
is Nicaraguan coffee during the Sandanista years. Nicaragua grows coffee -
it's decent but not great. It was marketed thru left-leaning orginisations
and such, with the not subtle subtext being 'Buy the Coffee to Support the
Revolution'. I'm sure people can think of other examples - the idea of
trade-as-aid has kicked around for a while. It isnt a big market, but if
you are selling to Trin, it doesnt have to be ...

Note that the first strategy will help prevent development in the long
term. A world that has carved a niche for itself may be locked into it - if
your sales pitched is based around lo-tech, then you *cannot* develop
without abandoning this niche.


>Comparing type B yards vs Type A, it gets a little more dicey. Those
>yards on the Type B yards have to import their jump drives from
>somewhere, which _has_ to be more expensive than making your own, in the
>main. 
>
>But they'll have the advantage of greater automation, so I would guess
>they get about half the time advantage of a comparable Type A yard, so
>our TL15 B yard will still make that beowulf faster than our TL11 Type A
>yard, but I don't think they'll get nearly as much of a price break,
>either. 
>
>Again, forced to off the top of my head, I'd allow about half the
>pricing differential that a Type A yard gets making things at lower
>TL's. All _big-time_ MHO, and should any of the _real_ TML economics
>types wish to jump in now, please do!

Note that most real-world commerical shipping is built in less advanced
economies (notably South Korea), because those countries have cheaper
currencies than the 'bleeding edge' economies of Japan and the USA.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 19:23:26
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

At 08:15 PM 6/6/99 EDT, you wrote:
>In a message dated 99-05-21 09:39:38 EDT, you write:
>
><< People don't explode in vacuum.  If you have a lung full of air, you might
> rupture your lungs when the otside pressure drops to zero, but not bursting
> eyeballs, etc., as shown in Outland. >>
>
>Hmm, I think that there is something on NASA's site that has how it realy 
>happens.

I have on my office wall a cute little poster from NASA-Ames entitled "Why
do I need a space suit?"  It goes over all the relevant effects of vacuum
exposure.  The points touched on are Oxygen, Pressure, Radiation
Protection, Protection from Debris, and Thermal Insulation.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Party(hiss)on,(hiss)Wayne(hiss)"
"Part on, Darth!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 21:56:26 -0500
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@hex.net>
Subject: Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

At 12:11 PM 6/5/99 +0100, Dom Mooney wrote:
><snip>some good stuff
>Missiles become effective against civilian, or crippled targets (in the way
>torpedoes were used to sink crippled ships in WW2), or when combined with
>another attack which can overwhelm the target. Arguably, the Simbad Sam BB
>KKM attack, if launched as a number of waves has attractions, but when you
>start adding evasion and relative velocities from both target, controller
>and launcher things get harder. Missiles will end up being used like those
>used to ambush the Kafer fleet in the rings/asteroids by Borodin in 2300AD.
>Powered down, stealthed, they also have a role, but Traveller lasers
>currently knock out CT style (and 2300 style) missiles.

A good rule would be that most civilian ships will be fair game for any missiles of the three types. Against military ship of the third line or better you will have to use large numbers of each of the three missile types to saturate the PD of the target ship. To improve the chances of over load other weapon types should also be used like lasers, particle beams, and meson weapons. All weapons should be timed to get there at the same time zone so to speak.

Nice to see my missiles are still remembered.<G>

Hmm maybe I will try and see what can be done with GURPS vehicles to make a payload missile with Reactionless/exhaustless drives.

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@hex.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #716
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Monday, June 7 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 717



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

My FF&S2 Spreadsheet
Re: My FF&S2 Spreadsheet
Lasers
Frozen Watch
Re CD-Roms and Dual Platforms
Re: My FF&S2 Spreadsheet
re: Reference to PDL's
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Titan Games Preview for (6/6/99)
Re: detecting missiles
Re: Starport Shipbuilding Capacities
Re: detecting missiles
Re: combat in space (was: Fighter Stuff)
Re: Lasers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 23:06:45 -0500
From: "The Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: My FF&S2 Spreadsheet

Actually, I believe that all of the bugs that I've been told about have been
fixed - but if I'm wrong, people need to tell me.

It can be found on my Traveller site, www.truserve.com/~igor/traveller
currently, stuff is under construction, though. Just look for the oeprations
area.

FYI - I plan on finishing up that spreadsheet one of these days - but right
now I'm working on some projects for other peope (It's almost done Rob,
really!!!) and some Java code to generate GURPS:Traveller First In Systems
(nearly done). But don't bug me about the First In stuff - I can't
distribute it until Loren has seen it and approved it, and he's busy right
now with AR2 - so I don't plan to distribute it anytime soon.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - http://www.truserve.com/~igor/           |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tg++(**) tc+ ru+ ge 3i+ jt- st au ls+ kk++ hi+ as+ va+ dr++  |
|       so+ zh+ vi+ da+                                              |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e++ h---- r+++ y++++                          |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 23:25:25 -0500
From: "The Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: Re: My FF&S2 Spreadsheet

Well crap.

I lied. There are some bugs that I have corrected, but are _not_ posted to
the website. They are:

Fixed a problem with backup passive sensor costs.
Fixed the power use of grav compensators.
Fixed a volume problem with life support in the Excel Version (it was
including fuel).
Fixed Power Plant scaling error.

Plus, there are some new features in the works
Added multiple TL ability to all weapon systems
Added Brilliant Lances format USP
Added Battle Rider format USP

The last three items are about 75% percent done...but I got sidetracked
(work, school, and a short bout of chemotherapy - but I'm better now, thank
you...).

Do people want me to post a new version with the bug fixes, but the feautres
unfinished? Or should I just get off my lazy  a** and do the whole thing -
but I won't be able to tackle it for another couple of weeks (the other
mentioned projects)...

+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@truserve.com - http://www.truserve.com/~igor/           |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| IMTU: tg++(**) tc+ ru+ ge 3i+ jt- st au ls+ kk++ hi+ as+ va+ dr++  |
|       so+ zh+ vi+ da+                                              |
| Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
|       b+++ DI+ D-- G e++ h---- r+++ y++++                          |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 20:28:56 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Lasers

>>So PDLs are just weapons with a USP rating slanted towards the short ranges
>>and high ROFs.
>>
>>Dom
>>
>  We had noticed the ROF fire thing and were designing a Laser with a high
>ROF (400 pulses) when we noticed that the rules say that the ROF only gives
>a DIF MOD to the to hit roll. We were under the impression from others on
>the list that one PDL could take out several missiles in one turn. That was
>why we are wondering if we have missed something in the rules or have read
>them wrong.

Fundamental procedure for putting Vp (Velocity of pulse)=C weapons on a
target at ranges where potential movement exceeds target size and Beam
duration exceeds maximum movement:

Base intercept time Ti= (2xDt)+ Tc +Tb
	Where Dt is distance measured in Light Seconds
		Tc is computational time in seconds
		Tb is time to bring weapons to bear
Max variation (probability area) radius Rp = (A x Ti^2)/2
Saturation Area As: Pi * Rp^2
Min Cross-Sectional Area Approximation Amcs: X x Y
	Where x and Y are the two lowest of Lenght, Width, and height
Simultaneous shots required to assure a hit Sss: As / Amcs

When you start getting more potential movement than beam duration, you
start getting into multiple saturation PLANES, each the with a depth in LS
equalling the pulse duration. You have to put the pulse into the target.
Also, this fails to account for even penetrating; that is a 3d problem,
which, if I recall my math right, works something like this (assume all
linear measurements to be in meters unless specified otherwise):

Effective Shot Volume Vse=Amcs * Db * C
	Where Db = Duration of Beam Pulse in Seconds
		and C = ~300,000,000 m (I KNOW I'm rounding...)
Volume to be saturated Vs= Pi * Rp^3
	(I'm not certain if I remembered the volume of a sphere... but it is
	a sphere, since all potential accellerations from the head of a known
	base vector are spheres, unless you have to factor in time to rotate
	to apply accelleration... correction here requested)
shots to saturate Ss= Vs/Esv
	High rof weapons may be able to count multiple times, depending
upon recycle time and As per wave.

 Mind you, this is the base for getting assurance of a single beam
intercept, as well, and doesn't account for the additional factors of
Rotational time of the target to apply thrust (which makes it easier, since
the target gets less time for max thrust, but does result in an ovoid
solid... like an egg with the narrow end pointing along the starting
vector), nor does it account for the potential of increased or reduced Ti
for initial vector...

Essentially, a Higher ROF allows more shots into the MOST PROBABLE path...
except in high saturation or extremely close ranges. CT Canon Missiles are
10cm by 1m tubes,, so we can assume that the real cross-sectional surface
area is somewhere around (75 to 300)cm^2. At close ranges, a single missile
is going to be USELESS against anything with more than a few lasers... but
waves might be effective. As for kinetic projectiles (unguided), it works
much the same, except that the Ti formula is nastier:

Base intercept time Ti= (2 * Dt)+ Tc +Tb + (Dt * Sp/C)
	where Sp/C = Speed (in unit of choice) divided by Speed of light in
	same units.
and the "Length of pulse" is measured in centimeters, simplifying the
Effective pulse volume formula to:
Effective Shot Volume Vse= greater of (Amcs * Lp) or (Vp)
	where Lp = Lenght of Projectile
	and Vp is volume of projectile... (seldom used- target must be smaller
	in effective cross section than the projectile....)

Realistically, a point defense useage of lasers is questionable past  a
couple BL hexes (0.1 LS, IIRC), but then so is being able to do damage with
a laser at those same ranges (hence the gravitic focussing "fudge").
Kinetic Kill systems are likewise extremely limited, and none of the above
even includes any factoring for penetrating, or even having sufficient
energy to do damage. At extremely close ranges (<=0.2 LS, bearing time and
calulation times become more important. I'm willing to grant TL10+
Traveller computers calculation times on the order of 1 millisecond...) but
bearing times will probably be on the order of a minimum of 0.1 second.

Let's figure a weapon with a Beam duration of 0.05 seconds, and a missile
(CT canon sized) with 6g discretionary burn, at 0.1 LS, and a bearing time
of 0.2 seconds, and a Type S as the target (one laser in the turret); thus
a 2d problem. We will assume a recharge time on the laser of same 0.2
seconds.

Ti= 2 * 0.1 + (0.001 [note 1]) + 0.2 = 0.3 seconds
Rp= (0.3^2 * (6g * 10mpss[note 2]))/2 = (0.09 * 60)/2 = 5.4/2 = 2.7m
As= Pi 2.7^2 = 3.1416 * 7.29 = 22.502264
Amcs= 0.1*0.1 = 0.01
Sss=22.5/0.01 = 2250 shots

Note 1: dropped due to insignificance in the rest of the problem.
note 2: 10 mps is a canon figure, not a real world one, and is used for
convinience, too.

To be honest, I can't remember the formulae for ovoid solids nor elipses...
so I'll stop here. But, suffice it to say that a kinetic projectile
intercept requires high velocities, large targets, and fairly close ranges
(on a space scale).


William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 19:21:40 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Frozen Watch

>"Wake me when you think its hopeless, Captain.
>Otherwise, I'll kill you.  If its 20 years from now,
>fine with me."
> - anonymous Frozen Watch Voluneteer

How about this one (from a game I ran years ago):
"Fine, reenlist me... I volunteer for Frozen watch... wake me when I retire."
	Carlos Mason-Ferrarri, Cdr, Reserve Fleet Regina, 1114, upon
rolling a 12 for reenlisment after 4 terms, and 7 purple hearts, and having
failed all three aging saves.

And yes, the character's name WAS INDEED a Sten Tribute... You can blame
that on Marc McQueen (formerly a member of this esteemed body known as the
TML).

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 19:32:01 -0800
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re CD-Roms and Dual Platforms

>>A hybrid CD would allow the inclusion of both PC and Mac software, too.
>
>I'll dig out my Toast manual and see what it says about readability....
>
>it's not clear but the manual does say 'you want to write discs that can be
>read on a Mac and a PC, with the Mac data only visible to the Mac Users,
>and the ISO data only visible to other users.' From what I remember from
>disks like Riven and Myth II which are dual format, you can only see the
>part whic corresponds to your OS...
>
>Anyone know better
>
>Dom

Some dual platforms are using a 3 partition method:
partition A: MS-Dos (for application, Docs, and DLL's)
partition B: MacOS (application, docs, extensions, cdevs, and libraries)
partition C: ISO-9660 or other mutually readable, otherwise hidden
partitions for the actual run-time bulk data.

Macs can read some MS-Dos CD-Roms for data files; specifics vary. I know,
cause I've done so. With the right extension, one can even look through an
APPLE II Prodos CD.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 21:54:22 -0800
From: Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com>
Subject: Re: My FF&S2 Spreadsheet

I would not mind seeing the whole thing completed. Thanks!

The Akins wrote:

> Well crap.
>
> I lied. There are some bugs that I have corrected, but are _not_ posted to
> the website. They are:
>
> Fixed a problem with backup passive sensor costs.
> Fixed the power use of grav compensators.
> Fixed a volume problem with life support in the Excel Version (it was
> including fuel).
> Fixed Power Plant scaling error.
>
> Plus, there are some new features in the works
> Added multiple TL ability to all weapon systems
> Added Brilliant Lances format USP
> Added Battle Rider format USP
>
> The last three items are about 75% percent done...but I got sidetracked
> (work, school, and a short bout of chemotherapy - but I'm better now, thank
> you...).
>
> Do people want me to post a new version with the bug fixes, but the feautres
> unfinished? Or should I just get off my lazy  a** and do the whole thing -
> but I won't be able to tackle it for another couple of weeks (the other
> mentioned projects)...
>
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Andrew Akins                                                       |
> | Home: igor@truserve.com - http://www.truserve.com/~igor/           |
> | Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | IMTU: tg++(**) tc+ ru+ ge 3i+ jt- st au ls+ kk++ hi+ as+ va+ dr++  |
> |       so+ zh+ vi+ da+                                              |
> | Geek: GCS d- s+:+ a- C++ W++ w+++(-)$ PS+ PE t- 5++ X+ R+++ tv+    |
> |       b+++ DI+ D-- G e++ h---- r+++ y++++                          |
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+

- --
Mike Wittek | Vacaville, California
mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com | http://www.thelair.cnchost.com
     "Democracy isn't just the best form of government; It's the only one even
remotely worth a damn. Only democracy guarantees that people get what they
deserve."   --Zena Marley

REQ'D DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may not be
the opinion of my school or Internet service provider. For that matter, it may
not be your opinion, but deal with it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 00:18:48 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: re: Reference to PDL's

At 01:32 AM 6/6/99 -0500, you wrote:
>  BTW Windows crashed while I was putting this up and lost about 2 hours of
>typing (at 2-3 words a minute). I had put up the Missile and PDL design
>that we had made but now I don't have the time to re type it in.
>

 Ok Here is the Missile (I hope it reads alright)
Ok this is too the best of me and my friends understanding of how the FF&S
rules work, so don't laugh to much if we have very blatant and obvious
mistakes. BTW of our group, none of us have any education higher then HS
(Unless you count Military Tech School) and I have the best Math background
which is I took Algebra 2 (And barely passed) so don't reference stuff we
wouldn't have access to unless it is in use in the real military. (I was a
Offensive Avionics Specialist, another player was a Defensive Avionics
Specialist, and the other was a Weapons Specialist i.e. he repaired and
maintained Nukes) Were not Engineers by any means, but we do like a good
rousing space combat with lots of big explosions. :)

MK VIII Heavy Missile “Shadow” 
TL:14
Warhead: Nuclear 100 kt Yield.                          Mass:   72kg
Propulsion: EAPlaC SF Rocket 4 x 599kg (400 tns trust)   Mass: 2386kg
Guidance: Seeker (Image Recognition)                    Mass: 1000kg
Sensors: Passive EMS 60K range  Proc Vol:0.4             Mass:  800kg 
         Ant Diam: 5m Ant Area: 0.6 m2 Ant Vol: 0.03     Mass:   30kg
ECM: EMM    Vol: 1.40 m3  Rad: 0.7 m2                    Mass:  700kg
Average Mass:       3.795 tons
G Rating:   400 / 3.795 = 105.4
Fuel Consumption:  11.25 m3 per hour (this is where we have probs)
Fuel Endurance:   2.386 / 11.25 = 0.212
G Turns:  105.4 x 0.212 = 22.3 (round to 22)
Max Gs per Turn: 22

  This missile was built by the Solarian League in response to the Advanced
Sensors the Imperialist’s developed in the Later part of the Reformation
War.  This missile is a redesign of the MK VII Stealth Missile, but is much
larger because of the better ECM and larger Engines. This missile typically
used in Tandem with it’s New sister Missile MK III Heavy DTL “Stinger” .
The MK III has a Nuclear Pumped Laser Warhead, roughly 5 times the Yield of
the MK VIII. The MK III is nearly the same size and with the same
ECM/Sensor package. These two Missile use there Masking technology to
appear Identical to opposing Sensors.
  The “Shadow” Missile and it’s sister “Stinger” are Stand off missiles for
use in long range strikes or Prolonged Assaults. With there low Sensor
Profile it enables them to approach a target while being undetected till
there is little time for the Target to respond. And with the Preprogrammed
Target Identification Algorithms they will select try to select the most
Tactically valuable target.


  Ok what do you guys think? We don't know how much this thing cost’s but
we have figured in the 2-3 Mega Credit range. Kind of expensive, but the
rich Solarian's which also Value lives (Only there own of course) above
money try to use stand off weapons as much as possible.

  Note: IMTU I have based it upon some of my Short Stories I have written
in the past. I am now changing one slightly to show an example of these in
(at least what I envision) use.

Oh here is the stats for the other missile


 MK VIII Heavy Missile “Shadow” 
TL:14
Warhead: 500 kt Pumped X-Ray. Vol: 0.358 m3               Mass:  358kg
Propulsion: EAPlaC SF Rocket 4 x 528kg (400 tns trust)    Mass: 2112kg
Guidance: Seeker (Image Recognition)                     Mass: 1000kg
Sensors: Passive EMS 60K range  Proc Vol:0.4              Mass:  800kg 
         Ant Diam: 5m Ant Area: 0.6 m2 Ant Vol: 0.03      Mass:   30kg
ECM: EMM    Vol: 1.40 m3  Rad: 0.7 m2                     Mass:  700kg
Average Mass:       3.944 tons
G Rating:   400 / 3.944 = 101.41
Fuel Consumption:  11.25 m3 per hour 
Fuel Endurance:   2.112 / 11.25 = 0.188
G Turns:  101.41 x 0.188 = 19.06 (round to 19)
Max Gs per Turn: 19

  As you'll notice nether missile would fit on either a Turret or Barbette,
but you could fit 4 in a 50 ton bay and 9 in a 100 bay, at least that is
what we have guessed by glancing at the rules. We haven't got so far as to
designing launchers for these.

>  We are having trouble figuring some of the values. And I thought making
>ships in Space Opera was hard. Heck FF&S makes those rules look like
>child's play.
>
>
>-- 
>   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
>warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 
>
>
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 15:32:03 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

Finally got to see the new Star Wars last night, only days after it opened
here... and the cinema was near empty :^)

Like the other Star Wars movies, I enjoyed it greatly.  The low plot didn't
worry me at all, I expected that.  SFX where what I expected and more!  Some
elements I didn't enjoy (Ben Hur did the pod race better, MHO only) and some
of the aliens looked like cartoon characters with no rhyme, no reason for
existing?

I think the above subjects had been mentioned before, so I don't believe I
spoiled anything (Although it pissed me off how the King got assassinated!
Whoops... did I just say the wrong thing...?)

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 02:07:29 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

- -----Original Message-----
From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Monday, June 07, 1999 1:30 AM
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...


>I think the above subjects had been mentioned before, so I don't believe I
>spoiled anything (Although it pissed me off how the King got assassinated!
>Whoops... did I just say the wrong thing...?)


Reminds me of an episode of the Simpsons. Homer and Marge are coming out of
The Empire Strikes Back, and there's this *huge* line waiting to get in. He
turns to Marge and says "Wow. Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father." In a
single frame all of the disinterested people in line turn angrily toward
poor Homer...

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 23:47:37 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (6/6/99)

  It looks like Titan Games, Inc. now has BITS stuff in stock - this might
be the best deal for people not in the UK or US.

    Web Site location: http://www.titangames.com/

>RETAIL:
>-------
>    British Isles Traveller Support:
>        (T4: Mark Miller's Traveller)
>            101 Cargos (101C) [$5.6, M]
>            101 Plots (101P) [$5.6, M]
>            101 Travellers (101T) [$5.6, M]
>            101 Rendevous (101R) [$5.6, M]
>            101 Lifeforms (101L) [$5.6, M]
>            101 Governments (101G) [$5.6, M]
>            101 Religions (101E) [$5.6, M]
...
>    Steve Jackson Games:
>        (GURPS)
>            Russia (6082) [$14, M]
...
>            (Rulebooks)
>                Deities & Demigods (with Cthulhu) (2013) (name inside
cover, some pictures colored well)[$113, VF]
                        ^^^
  <giggle>
 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 01:55:51 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: detecting missiles

At 12:41 AM 6/6/99 +0100, you wrote:
> "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net> writes:
>>What always amuses me in these missile debates is that the people who
>>think they're defending Traveller canon by wanting ways to have impact
>>missiles end up wanting to have missiles that are undetectable and maneuver
>>at 50G...which gives it enough kinetic energy to destroy a warship in a
>>single hit. So you've designed a weapon that can surprise and destroy
>>small combat ships with no defence whatsoever; not very Travellerish
>>to me...
>
>I know what you mean - I like CT missiles, and the KKM/2300 det laser
>developments but unless you reign in laser technology in Traveller they
>don't work against a military target.
>
>How hard would lasers have to be reigned in to make the game work as CT?
>Would it just become 2300 Star Cruiser?

  Just don't allow the Gravitic Lenses for lasers. That's what has allowed
Lasers to be able to attack at such great distances.
 

>Dom
>
>----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
>"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
>Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
>  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
>                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
>Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 
>
>
>
>
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 19:13:22 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Starport Shipbuilding Capacities

Date sent:      	Fri, 04 Jun 1999 18:28:09 -0500
From:           	Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>

>ISTR that someone had posted expanded starport rules on his/her/its Web
>site, which included shipyard size and capacity.  Could someone post the
>URL, if this information exists?

I don't know if its what you're looking for, but I have Paul Walker's shipyard
rules on my site.


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 02:18:52 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: detecting missiles

At 02:03 PM 6/5/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>There are a bunch of ways to do this.  One obvious way is to
>>have the front of the missile, a pod that sticks out, etc.
>>covered with sensors and the back covered with radiators.  After
>>all, if the radiators need to point away from the foe and the
>>sensors point toward the foe, there isn't much need to put them
>>on the same surface.
>
>In FFS2, this is the sort of thing that advanced IR masking buys you.
>It only works up to a point...eventually even IR emission from the body of
>the missile is detectable. So you refrigerate the body of the missile...
>but that gives you more heat to pump out. And you have to paint the
>missile black (otheweise it's easy to detect from reflected starlight...)
>And, in the end, the missile probably can't hide from active sensors.
>Since active sensor detection goes as range^4, a radar that can
>detect a 100-ton ship at 100,000km can detect a 0.1 ton missile
>at 10,000km rather easily...

  Possibly right, but at 10,000, 20,000 or even 60,0000 it could be too
late (by the BL rules as far as I understand them). If I can get a regular
12/12 missile on the right vector to where it gets within 6 hexes of your
ship before you detect it, then I can easily get within the your hex to
either hit you (Which is actually hard *not Impossible* to do) or let off a
Det-Laser with little to no chance of missing. Your ship would only have
that single turn to try and destroy the missile, and if that can draw some
of your Laser shots from my ship so I can get within range of my BFG, then
I'd feel that they have accomplished the job.

 BTW does the person who wrote the FF&S book frequent this list? I got a
couple of rules questions.

>
>What always amuses me in these missile debates is that the people who
>think they're defending Traveller canon by wanting ways to have impact
>missiles end up wanting to have missiles that are undetectable and maneuver
>at 50G...which gives it enough kinetic energy to destroy a warship in a
>single hit. So you've designed a weapon that can surprise and destroy
>small combat ships with no defence whatsoever; not very Travellerish
>to me...

  Well what if, a race didn't have the Tech (or the will) to make awesome
accurate long ranged lasers, but had really good tech in stealth and
missiles? And they also had a inhibition to loosing there own peoples life
(Religious) but didn't care how many of the enemy they killed, they would
make stand off weapons. Det Lasers are a good one, but so are regular
missiles. 

>
>Bruce
>

- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 02:27:28 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: combat in space (was: Fighter Stuff)

At 07:20 AM 6/4/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> >I bet they didn't use realistic ranges (hint: if you can *see* your
>> >opponent, it ain't realistic!)
>> 
>>   Well actually in the game 'Mantis', which is what I base a lot of my
>> reasoning on, You very rarely see your target. And if you do, it for a
>> brief few seconds as you fly by it at several thousands of Kilometers
>> per
>> hour. Unless of course your able to match velocity and vectors, which
>> is a
>> art under it's own. Like I said it uses real Newtonian physics. Lasers
>> have
>> an extremely long range, but at those ranges it is hard to hit,
>> because you
>> are the one targeting it, not some computer, which IMHO would make for
>> a
>> very boring game.
>	[[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  from my short experience with Mantis,
>it does use physics in terms of movement, but there the reality ends.
>	For a truly realistic system, you need to simulate the lag ANY
>detection system would have at the tremendous ranges involved.  At
>150,000km (not an uncommon range for space scales) you'd have a full
>second lag in the time it would take any active sensor to register the
>ship (ping to craft, bounce, return).  Passive sensors, ironically would
>be MORE accurate since the lag would effectively be halved.  And if the
>ship is moving at 1000kph (creeping, in space terms) this moves it 300m
>in that second - far enough to easily avoid any sort of beam fire.  Of
>course, if a ship was moving on a set course, the targetting could be
>plotted and would be accurate.  But I would imagine at the first sign of
>any danger, the computer's first move is to add a random vector-altering
>component to the thrust direction.

 My favorite tactic was to piss the target off let him lock on me then I
would accelerate away from him then spin around and just hurl lots of shots
in his direction (sort a what a pulse laser does) and I would usually get a
few hits because he is trying to lock on me, and when he did I would have
to change vectors or be destroyed by his shots coming (But many light
seconds away)

  BTW how does you all explain visual bolts to players? Or do you? I have
told players that they can't see the lasers with plain eyes, but that the
computers project the beams or pulses onto the screen so they can see them.
Also why aren't MFD's Multi Function Displays? :)
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 02:57:20 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Lasers

At 08:28 PM 6/6/99 -0800, you wrote:
>>  We had noticed the ROF fire thing and were designing a Laser with a high
>>ROF (400 pulses) when we noticed that the rules say that the ROF only gives
>>a DIF MOD to the to hit roll. We were under the impression from others on
>>the list that one PDL could take out several missiles in one turn. That was
>>why we are wondering if we have missed something in the rules or have read
>>them wrong.
>
>Fundamental procedure for putting Vp (Velocity of pulse)=C weapons on a
>target at ranges where potential movement exceeds target size and Beam
>duration exceeds maximum movement:
>
>Base intercept time Ti= (2xDt)+ Tc +Tb
>	Where Dt is distance measured in Light Seconds
>		Tc is computational time in seconds
>		Tb is time to bring weapons to bear
>Max variation (probability area) radius Rp = (A x Ti^2)/2
>Saturation Area As: Pi * Rp^2
>Min Cross-Sectional Area Approximation Amcs: X x Y
>	Where x and Y are the two lowest of Lenght, Width, and height
>Simultaneous shots required to assure a hit Sss: As / Amcs

  Huh? Too many numbers. My head hurts. :)
 So your saying that this is why all 800 have to go on one target, or that
you can hit 800 targets with one laser?

>
>When you start getting more potential movement than beam duration, you
>start getting into multiple saturation PLANES, each the with a depth in LS
>equalling the pulse duration. You have to put the pulse into the target.
>Also, this fails to account for even penetrating; that is a 3d problem,
>which, if I recall my math right, works something like this (assume all
>linear measurements to be in meters unless specified otherwise):
>
>Effective Shot Volume Vse=Amcs * Db * C
>	Where Db = Duration of Beam Pulse in Seconds
>		and C = ~300,000,000 m (I KNOW I'm rounding...)
>Volume to be saturated Vs= Pi * Rp^3
>	(I'm not certain if I remembered the volume of a sphere... but it is
>	a sphere, since all potential accellerations from the head of a known
>	base vector are spheres, unless you have to factor in time to rotate
>	to apply accelleration... correction here requested)
>shots to saturate Ss= Vs/Esv
>	High rof weapons may be able to count multiple times, depending
>upon recycle time and As per wave.

 So this means that you need more shots to hit a target that is moving
faster or accelerating faster? 

>
> Mind you, this is the base for getting assurance of a single beam
>intercept, as well, and doesn't account for the additional factors of
>Rotational time of the target to apply thrust (which makes it easier, since
>the target gets less time for max thrust, but does result in an ovoid
>solid... like an egg with the narrow end pointing along the starting
>vector), nor does it account for the potential of increased or reduced Ti
>for initial vector...
>
>Essentially, a Higher ROF allows more shots into the MOST PROBABLE path...
>except in high saturation or extremely close ranges. CT Canon Missiles are
>10cm by 1m tubes,, so we can assume that the real cross-sectional surface
>area is somewhere around (75 to 300)cm^2. At close ranges, a single missile
>is going to be USELESS against anything with more than a few lasers... but
>waves might be effective. As for kinetic projectiles (unguided), it works
>much the same, except that the Ti formula is nastier:

 I was wondering, If I had a missile already going on a vector with a
heading 2 and a velocity of 8. Then when the missile locks on to target at
4 hexes on heading 3 and has 12 left for thrusting and uses all 12 to
increase its velocity and change its heading in that same turn [4 thrust to
change heading and 8 to increase velocity to 16] how many seconds would the
target ship have to fire lasers at the missile? This is of course assuming
the Target ship hasn't detected the missile till it had gotten to a range
of 4 hexes. I know by the BL rules the ship has a whole 30 minute turn, but
I would think the missile would get there in a shorter time.

>
>William F. Hostman
>Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
>ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
>IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
>as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
>"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"
>
>
>
>
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #717
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Monday, June 7 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 718



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

ST Ship Displacements 
Re: [Offtopic] Titan Games
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Maximum ship-building output
Re: Maximum ship-building output
Re: Kieth Brothers Lost Supplements
Dave Nilsen and his plans for Traveller: TNE?
Re: Trav economics
Re: Maximum ship-building output
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #703
Re: My FF&S2 Spreadsheet
Re: Maximum ship-building output
Re: Computer tech in 3I
Ship-building
Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff
Re: detecting missiles
Re: My FF&S2 Spreadsheet
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #703
RE: A plea for cinema restraint...
RE: A plea for cinema restraint...
OT: Help Needed
How do you join the TML?
Trade routes: Terry has resubscribed.
Re: How do you join the TML?
Re: ST Ship Displacements 
Building your first Starship (was Re: Maximum ship-building output)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 03:25:54 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: ST Ship Displacements 

 Hey I am gonna run another "Side Trek" game (By suggestion of a player)
since I have this FF&S book, and if I can learn it, I want to actually make
the ships for it rather then 'fudging' it as I have done in the past. 
 So what I was wondering, does anyone know the Displacement Value for these
Original series ships?
  Constellation class Heavy Cruiser (Same as the 1701 Enterprise)
  Romulan War bird
  Klingon D7 Cruiser (Battle cruiser from the Original series)

  The players are going to happen upon the battle where the Federation
Heavy Cruiser "Hood" is ambushed by Klingon's and destroyed. But I am going
to add a little twist. 2 Romulan war birds will have also warped in to join
in the fray.

  I have breezed over the Alternate technologies sections in the FF&S book
and saw the references to the other tech that are very similar to the
Impulse drives and Warp drives of the ST universe. And the player that
suggested it also said maybe that this time they might make it back with
something that works. (He still doesn't know me too well :))


 Thanks
 Later.
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 04:25:55 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: [Offtopic] Titan Games

From: Steven Hudson <shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, June 07, 1999 2:49 AM
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (6/6/99)


>>            (Rulebooks)
>>                Deities & Demigods (with Cthulhu) (2013) (name inside
>cover, some pictures colored well)[$113, VF]
>                        ^^^
>  <giggle>


Wow. My jaw has dropped. I've got two, somewhere in the range of VF-NM, not
marked up in any way.

If I didn't love the Erol Otus artwork in the Cthulhu section so much, I'd
think about offering one of them up on E-Bay.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 02:06:34 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

>From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
>Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
.
>I think the above subjects had been mentioned before, so I don't believe I
>spoiled anything (Although it pissed me off how the King got assassinated!

  I thought Elvis was "death by misadventure"?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 10:14:42 GMT
From: Mark Fletcher <m_fletcher2001@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output

Hi,

My interpretation of Starports was as follows
Class A: Can build starships, jump drives and spaceships
Class B: Can build starships. Cannot build Jump drives. Can build Space 
craft
Class C: Cannot build starships. Cannot build Jump drives. Can build Space 
craft

The definitions ive assummed for starships and spacecraft are:
spacecraft: any vessel able to travel space without FTL
starship: any vesself able to travel space with FTL

Is this a fair interpretation of the rules?

Ta,
    Mark



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 10:16:03 GMT
From: Mark Fletcher <m_fletcher2001@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output

Hi,

My interpretation of Starports was as follows
Class A: Can build starships, jump drives and spaceships
Class B: Can build starships. Cannot build Jump drives. Can build Space 
craft
Class C: Cannot build starships. Cannot build Jump drives. Can build Space 
craft

The definitions ive assummed for starships and spacecraft are:
spacecraft: any vessel able to travel space without FTL
starship: any vesself able to travel space with FTL

Is this a fair interpretation of the rules?

Ta,
    Mark



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 21:01:35 EST
From: Craig Brain <cjbrain@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Kieth Brothers Lost Supplements

I have not been able to contact Paul Sanders (or no reply so far...), and to 
compound this, I have not heard anything from the list. What happened? Or is 
this a subject that has been banned/done to death/forgotten? Is there any 
news on thsi subject. Email me privately if you don't want to continue this 
on the list. An answer is an answer and I would appreciate that.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 12:16:31 GMT
From: Mark Fletcher <m_fletcher2001@hotmail.com>
Subject: Dave Nilsen and his plans for Traveller: TNE?

Hi,

Having not followed the progress of Traveller the last couple of years 
(T:TNE was the last rules version that I bought)I was wondering if Dave had 
ever described to anyone what his long term plans were for the T:TNE 
universe? Did he ever publish anything similar to the Designers notes for MT 
that were published in MTJ no4 (ie the background of the sparklers)

For example:
What was behind the Black Curtain? (Is that its correct name?!?)
How did he view the RC developing in the games timeline?

Just Wondering

Mark


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 06:59:46 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Trav economics

Ian or Katts wrote:
> 

> >
> >Again, forced to off the top of my head, I'd allow about half the
> >pricing differential that a Type A yard gets making things at lower
> >TL's. All _big-time_ MHO, and should any of the _real_ TML economics
> >types wish to jump in now, please do!
> 
> Note that most real-world commerical shipping is built in less advanced
> economies (notably South Korea), because those countries have cheaper
> currencies than the 'bleeding edge' economies of Japan and the USA.

DOH! They build those TL6 freighters, and we're building those bleeding edge
TL8 nuclear attack submarines...only we're not selling any.

Thanks Ian, you've made it clearer to me. Was that currency rate stuff built
into FT? I should pick it up, then. Having local credits trade variable to the
Imperial based on TL makes a big difference.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 07:00:34 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output

Mark Fletcher wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> My interpretation of Starports was as follows
> Class A: Can build starships, jump drives and spaceships
> Class B: Can build starships. Cannot build Jump drives. Can build Space
> craft
> Class C: Cannot build starships. Cannot build Jump drives. Can build Space
> craft
> 
> The definitions ive assummed for starships and spacecraft are:
> spacecraft: any vessel able to travel space without FTL
> starship: any vesself able to travel space with FTL
> 
> Is this a fair interpretation of the rules?

These are the assumptions I've been working on.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 13:30:21 +0100
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #703

In message <990604.045206.8n1.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>, Leonard
Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes
>>> 
>>> And what is the oxidant that the oxygen burns with?
>
>Oxygen *is* the oxidant. The correct question is what is the *reducing
>agent* (aka "fuel"). 
>
>It could be the atmosphere. In the case of the Apollo I fire, it was
>the *oxgen line*. That is, the line caught fire and the oxygen jetting
>out let the tubing burn like mad while spraying a jet of superheated
>oxygen. The various metals in the control panels and capsule structure
>ignited from that...
>
The point being that it isn't the oxygen per se which makes like a blow
torch.

I thought you were about to make the same mistake that they had on
Babylon 5 where they were worried about igniting the atmosphere of
Jupiter, whereas enny fule noes that you can happily strike matches in a
100% methane atmosphere (just look at the lightning on Jupiter...)

>Ever watch someone use a cutting torch? That bright white shower of
>sparks is *steel* burning in a jet of oxygen.

- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 08:03:54
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: My FF&S2 Spreadsheet

At 11:25 PM 6/6/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Do people want me to post a new version with the bug fixes, but the feautres
>unfinished? Or should I just get off my lazy  a** and do the whole thing -
>but I won't be able to tackle it for another couple of weeks (the other
>mentioned projects)...

Oh, you don't ask the easy ones do you...  I'd rather wait for the entire
project to be done.  When I get my copy, I plan on redoing all my ship
designs so I can include the BL/BR stats.
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 12:39:17 -0400
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Fletcher <m_fletcher2001@hotmail.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 6:16 AM
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output


> Hi,
>
> My interpretation of Starports was as follows
> Class A: Can build starships, jump drives and spaceships
> Class B: Can build starships. Cannot build Jump drives. Can build Space
> craft
> Class C: Cannot build starships. Cannot build Jump drives. Can build Space
> craft
>
> The definitions ive assummed for starships and spacecraft are:
> spacecraft: any vessel able to travel space without FTL
> starship: any vesself able to travel space with FTL
>
> Is this a fair interpretation of the rules?
>
> Ta,
>     Mark

Those are the rules.  However, AS A PLOT DEVICE, I allow two exceptions:

1.  On a late TL8 world, Professor Frink is using prototype TL 9 technology
to build a scout ship in his back yard to explore the universe.  Yes, it's a
big back yard.  No, I don't know how he's paying for it, maybe he got a
grant.

2.  On a TL 9 world with a Class B starport, Der Fuhrer has decided he wants
a star navy NOW.  No one will sell him any starships (smart people), and he
doesn't want to wait 30 years for a Class A port can be built (dictators can
be like that).  "Where there's a whip there's a way" is an integral part of
the totalitarian philosophy, so his Minister of Armaments improvises.

John

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 11:01:30 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

>>>> (begin quoted material)
You might very well have systems like we see in communications
protocols, where an advanced newer technology has several earlier
more standard technologies included.  The local
OS/hardware/protocol/etc might run faster, be smaller, whatever, but
when interfacing with systems that don't match the local standard
the system "falls back" on the slower/larger/less efficient, but
universally compatible IDP tech.  You can innovate, but if you want
wide acceptance your innovations must include the standard "fall
back" standards.

Eris
>>>> (end qouted material)
This looks just right to me.  It definitely follows general practice
today.  For example, current modems (something I am familiar with) are
v.90 (56000kbps) compatible if they are intended for standard phone
lines.  If they are worth anything, they will also be capable of dealing
with quite a list of older protocols.  A specific example (I have the
box handy):  A Zoom fax modem VFX v.32bis modem handles the following
standards:  for 300bps:  Bell 103, v.21, v.22 A/B, v.23.  for 1200bps: 
Bell 212A, v.22.  for 2400bps:  v.22bis.  for 9600/4800bps:  v.32.  for
14400/12000/7200bps:  v.32bis.
As you can see, for a modem that can run at 14400bps (yes, that USED to
be a fast modem), we have 10 different protocols that the modem can deal
with.  Another example is the US Robotics modems, which have come out
with a number of offbeat protocols over the years trying to beat out the
competition.  USR modems will still talk to other USR modems in the HST
protocol if you set it up properly.  The HST protocol is a USR only
protocol that they brought out when 2400bps was the standard, and the
HST protocol would allow transmissions at 9600bps.  The HST protocol
never caught on with other companies.
Ob Trav:  I agree with Eris that there would be a series of standard
protocols that equipment would follow, even if the high end was
different or completely new.  I would suspect that there would be at
least 3 protocols in the IDP for each tech level (early, middle, late),
and perhaps as many as 20 or 30.  If we assume 3 per TL starting at 9,
then the 1120 IDP would have at least 21 protocols to deal with. 
Someone in a particular field (say skill of 3 or so) would probably be
able to rattle off each of the names on the spur of the moment.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 17:53:57 +0000
From: Bryn Monnery <uccabdm@ucl.ac.uk>
Subject: Ship-building

Hi!

Well there are 3 things you need to build starships:

1. A class A starport
2. A population to build them
3. Lanthanum

Assuming you have all 3 of these then you'd rate output based on an
algorithum based on economic power (population) in dtons. One has already
been posted. (Popn/1000), I had my own which was (popn/120,000) based on
the Imperium/ Dark Nebula apparent building rates (1 turn must of equalled
4 years, during which a large developed world made 1/3rd of a CruRon (Major
world = 4 Resource Units, a CR Sqn costing 12RUs). Assuming 10,000 ton
cruisers and 10 ship squadrons thats 8333 dtons/ year on a world above 1
billion people, although both capitals had considerably higher rates, hence
larger populations)

My original classic traveller also gives build rates between 100 and 5000
dtons (9 months for a 100 ton scout, 36 months for a 5000 ton light
cruiser). The rate was going up at 1 month per extra 1000 tons so a 10,000
ton cruiser takes 41 months on the slip, the origin of the 4 year Imp/ DN
etc. turn rate. (Cruisers were built in 1 turn, Battleships in 2. I
presumed they were built at multiple locations and the Squadron assembled
at the homeworld).

As for number 3, the lanthanum, it gives a very good reason why a world
capable of making starships in a pocket empire must conquer new worlds, to
obtain lanthanum to build newer (and bigger) starships. You may want to
consider a lanthanum factor based on the world size and density, being how
much can be mined per year. Its consumption would be linked to Jump Drive
mass (i.e. we only dig enough lanthanum to build 1000 tons of jump drives a
year, do we build one jump-3 25,000 ton battlecruiser or 2 jump-4 10,000
ton heavy cruisers? Planet X has lanthanum? Great, hang on while I embark
my infantry division.....)

Anyway, enough rambling,

Bryn
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/9292/UK.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 07:10:56 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

Sam Thomas <sinbad@hex.net> wrote:

>A good rule would be that most civilian ships will be fair game for any
>missiles of the three types. Against military ship of the third line or
>better you will have to use large numbers of each of the three missile
>types to saturate the PD of the target ship. To improve the chances of
>over load other weapon types should also be used like lasers, particle
>beams, and meson weapons. All weapons should be timed to get there at the
>same time zone so to speak.

The overload is critical - the interesting thing is that the rules
currently underplay the effectiveness of the laser PD by limiting it to
attacking 1 target. So a RL attack in the Traveller Universe would need
significantly more missiles to have any chance of penetrating the sand,
Nuke Damper and Laser PD barrage.

>Nice to see my missiles are still remembered.<G>

Are they actually on the web anywhere? If not I can offer them a home...

>Hmm maybe I will try and see what can be done with GURPS vehicles to make
>a payload missile with Reactionless/exhaustless drives.

<Thinking of GV2: Shudder!> And I thought FFS was complex....

Of course, another disregraded anti-missile defense is a nuclear warhead or
two, a la missile command.

<resists urge to plug his Jaguar back in and play missile command>

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 10:28:23 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: detecting missiles

>From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
>Subject: Re: detecting missiles
.
>  Just don't allow the Gravitic Lenses for lasers. That's what has allowed
>Lasers to be able to attack at such great distances.

  That should only remove them from real use as long-range anti-starship 
weapons; they'll still waste missiles at 1000 or 10,000 km easily enough.
If spinal (or other?) PAWS don't require/use grav-focussing then you'll
see a clear definition between PAWS (offensive heavy batteries) and all
other weapons (special functions or "tertiary" systems).

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 11:58:55 -0700
From: James Brewer <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: My FF&S2 Spreadsheet

Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1999 23:25:25 -0500
From: "The Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: Re: My FF&S2 Spreadsheet

<<Well crap.>>

snip 

<<Do people want me to post a new version with the bug fixes, but the features
unfinished? Or should I just get off my lazy  a** and do the whole thing -
but I won't be able to tackle it for another couple of weeks (the other
mentioned projects)...>>

If it will be awhile until you can get around to the new features I would
vote for the bug fix version of the FF&S2 spread sheet being posted now.

Jim Brewer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 15:13:32 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

>I think the above subjects had been mentioned before, so I don't believe I
>spoiled anything (Although it pissed me off how the King got assassinated!
>Whoops... did I just say the wrong thing...?)
>
>--  The Roc


Oh man, I can't believe you gave that part away!  Next you'll be telling
them about Boba Fett cheating at the grav-ball game and killing Yoda, who
is miraculously brought back to life by Jar-Jar's people.
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 15:26:58 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #703

>I thought you were about to make the same mistake that they had on
>Babylon 5 where they were worried about igniting the atmosphere of
>Jupiter, whereas enny fule noes that you can happily strike matches in a
>100% methane atmosphere (just look at the lightning on Jupiter...)

This reminds me of a comic book I read years and years ago, where this
alien from a methane planet is sent to earth in order to spy the best way
of taking it over.  As an 'earthling', he does everything he can to fit in.
 Including learning to smoke cigarettes.  Some weeks pass by and he accrues
tons of great invasion info which he transports to his homeworld.  After a
day of back-patting and congratulations, he finally has a few moments
alone.  He absent-mindedly lights up a cigarrette......

BOOM!

His planet blows up.
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 14:12:22 -0500 
From: "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
Subject: RE: A plea for cinema restraint...

>Oh man, I can't believe you gave that part away!  Next you'll be telling
>them about Boba Fett cheating at the grav-ball game and killing Yoda, who
>is miraculously brought back to life by Jar-Jar's people.

Hey, the best part of that resurrection scene was where Jar-Jar volunteers
to give his life to provide the life-force necessary to resurrect Yoda.  And
you think Yoda talked funny *before* he died... 

(Stupid Microsoft spell checker... doesn't even recognize "Yoda".  No
respect for our cultural icons.) 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 15:34:45 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: RE: A plea for cinema restraint...

At 02:12 PM 6/7/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Oh man, I can't believe you gave that part away!  Next you'll be telling
>>them about Boba Fett cheating at the grav-ball game and killing Yoda, who
>>is miraculously brought back to life by Jar-Jar's people.
>
>Hey, the best part of that resurrection scene was where Jar-Jar volunteers
>to give his life to provide the life-force necessary to resurrect Yoda.  And
>you think Yoda talked funny *before* he died... 

I didn't want to mention that part..MAJOR spoiler, you know?  :)  What
irked me was the return of the Ewoks.
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 14:35:14 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: OT: Help Needed

Gentles,

Forgive the OT request, but I have a desparate need for a street map of the
city of Paris ca. 1650. This will be used as a reference for the
preparation of a map by an other artist (if we could get several, spanning
a spread of years, so much the better.

I come to the list as it is a core of knowledge on many subjects besides
Traveller...



Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 14:49:18 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: How do you join the TML?

Hi all.

I know this is a stupid question, but how does one join the TML? I have a
friend who would like to know. It's been many, many moons since I've done
it, and I can't for the life of me remember how to go about it. I don't
have the info available on my hard drive anymore, apparently.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 12:55:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Trade routes: Terry has resubscribed.

Well, the TML unsubscribed me. I have been off for three days. 
If there were any messages for me about the trade routes project, 
please resend them.

Terry Mixon
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 16:22:03 -0400
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Re: How do you join the TML?

send mail to

traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com

In the body say:

subscribe


Rob


At 02:49 PM 6/7/99 -0600, you wrote:
>Hi all.
>
>I know this is a stupid question, but how does one join the TML? I have a
>friend who would like to know. It's been many, many moons since I've done
>it, and I can't for the life of me remember how to go about it. I don't
>have the info available on my hard drive anymore, apparently.
>
>Ciao,
>
>Joseph R. Dietrich
>yikes@evansville.net

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious
http://www.mpgn.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 16:24:39 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: ST Ship Displacements 

At 03:25 AM 6/7/99 -0500, you wrote:

> So what I was wondering, does anyone know the Displacement Value for these
>Original series ships?
>  Constellation class Heavy Cruiser (Same as the 1701 Enterprise)
   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   Constitution  (Ooops! I should know better then that)
 Sorry if I offended any fellow Trekers out there.




- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 17:29:58 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Building your first Starship (was Re: Maximum ship-building output)

At 12:39 PM 6/7/99 -0400, "johannes" wrote:
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: Mark Fletcher <m_fletcher2001@hotmail.com>
>Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 6:16 AM
>>
>> My interpretation of Starports was as follows
>> Class A: Can build starships, jump drives and spaceships
>> Class B: Can build starships. Cannot build Jump drives. Can build Space
>> craft
>> Class C: Cannot build starships. Cannot build Jump drives. Can build Space
>> craft
>
>Those are the rules.  However, AS A PLOT DEVICE, I allow two exceptions:
>
>1.  On a late TL8 world, Professor Frink is using prototype TL 9 technology
>to build a scout ship in his back yard to explore the universe.  Yes, it's a
>big back yard.  No, I don't know how he's paying for it, maybe he got a
>grant.
>

This is similar to my situation at 
http://www.datatone.com/~robb/traveller/Eideann.html

A balkanized world with a general TL8, one government (a Fuedal Technocracy)
has just discovered the Jump-1 Drive at one of their secret research labs 
in a low tidal flux area. (I have been assuming that Jump-0 drives are
possible at TL8, but perhaps I am wrong). They are about to send a scout ship
to explore nearby worlds (as soon as I build the thing, and decide what it
looks like), and hopefully get the jump on their competition (two
oligarchies).

I rolled up the sector according to the alternate world generation system in
galactic 2.4, and there was only 1 spacefaring civilization in the entire 
sector, so I made them my homeworld. 


- -- 
I talk back / and I'm not listening
to anything you say!  -- name of band???
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #718
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 7 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 719



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Computer tech in 3I
BayCon pictures up
TML FAQ URL (WAS: Re: How do you join the TML?)
Re: First In Software?
Re: Frozen watch
Re: First In Software?
Re: Keith Brothers Lost Supplements
Re: New Site: World Maps
Getting [OT] - Copyright - (Traveller Range #5 - V. Long)
Re: New Site: World Maps
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
[OT] Re: First In Software?
Re: Maximum ship-building output
RE: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Missles and Mirrors

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 17:40:43 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

At 11:01 AM 6/7/99 -0600, Joseph Kimball wrote:
>>>>> (begin quoted material)
>You might very well have systems like we see in communications
>protocols, where an advanced newer technology has several earlier
>more standard technologies included.  The local
>OS/hardware/protocol/etc might run faster, be smaller, whatever, but
>when interfacing with systems that don't match the local standard
>the system "falls back" on the slower/larger/less efficient, but
>universally compatible IDP tech.  You can innovate, but if you want
>wide acceptance your innovations must include the standard "fall
>back" standards.
>
>Eris
>>>>> (end qouted material)
>Ob Trav:  I agree with Eris that there would be a series of standard
>protocols that equipment would follow, even if the high end was
>different or completely new.  I would suspect that there would be at
>least 3 protocols in the IDP for each tech level (early, middle, late),
>and perhaps as many as 20 or 30.  If we assume 3 per TL starting at 9,
>then the 1120 IDP would have at least 21 protocols to deal with. 
>Someone in a particular field (say skill of 3 or so) would probably be
>able to rattle off each of the names on the spur of the moment.
>- Joseph
>

This is on topic, though it might not seem like it :)
You can almost see this happening today. In the bad old days, if you 
had an Apple II .sqz file, good luck unsqueezing it on a PC, and you
couldn't get Arc for the Apple. Because I had a bit of computer skill,
I could get specialized software to untar and uncompress unix files,
but I am sure I was the exception. Now I have an unzip program that
recognizes every compression method I have come across, and a paint
program that recognizes quite a few that I haven't. I have CDs that
can be read on all standard OSes. As we move in TL9 I think we will
see more of this, except the new standards will have to be fought out.


- -- 
I talk back / and I'm not listening
to anything you say!  -- name of band???
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 14:49:10 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: BayCon pictures up

>A couple of photos from the Great TML Vilani BBQ are now up at:
>
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/baycon.html
>
>If I misspelled your names, it's your own fault.

Sure, blame the victim :-)
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 16:49:33 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: TML FAQ URL (WAS: Re: How do you join the TML?)

"Joseph R. Dietrich" wrote:
> 
> Hi all.
> 
> I know this is a stupid question, but how does one join the TML? I have a
> friend who would like to know. It's been many, many moons since I've done
> it, and I can't for the life of me remember how to go about it. I don't
> have the info available on my hard drive anymore, apparently.
> 
While Rob Miracle has already responded, I fugured I'd throw this in:

Have your friend go to the following URL:

http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller/faq/tml-faq.html

Not only does the FAQ include subscription instructions, it also
contains other useful information for new members (the "Done-to-Death"
list, TML etiquette, etc.).

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 14:51:01 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: First In Software?

Sat, 05 Jun 1999 10:28:39 -0500, Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>C'mon, we're talking about Micro$oft bloatware here.  For Win95, you
>need at _least_ a fast 486; I would recommend at least a Pentium-class
>processor.  [ObTrav: For _optimal_ performance, I would suggest a Model
>6fib or better....]

>OTOH, a quite serviceable Celeron 366 MHz or faster (with 128k of
>integrated L2 cache) can be had for US $500 or so, with an extra
>$250-$300 or so for a 17" monitor.  That's about half the price of an
>iMac....

Half???

I've seen iMacs for $899
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 14:56:35 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Frozen watch

In GT, where low berths are much less dangerous, getting a frozen
watch will be pretty attractive.  You go into the the berth and
"wake up a second later" not having aged and with an entire
tour of pay waiting for you.  In a war it is also safer because
you're in the reserves....
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 16:57:37 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: First In Software?

"David P. Summers" wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> >OTOH, a quite serviceable Celeron 366 MHz or faster (with 128k of
> >integrated L2 cache) can be had for US $500 or so, with an extra
> >$250-$300 or so for a 17" monitor.  That's about half the price of an
> >iMac....
> 
> Half???
> 
> I've seen iMacs for $899

Last time I checked (a couple of months ago at CompUSA) iMacs were
selling for about $1100.  However, the computer market is rather
volatile right now, so that has probably changed.

ObTrav:  First In, anyone? 
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 22:02:39 GMT
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: Re: Keith Brothers Lost Supplements

Paul posted to the list about a month or two back, saying that the work is
going slow (due to having a Real Life(tm)), but is progressing and should
be ready to go out in late summer.  He had said at the time that he was not
replying to personal e-mails on the subject, and pointed us to a webpage
whose address I cannot remember, with all the gory schedule details.

I suppose he could have simply absconded with the money and set himself up
as a feudal druglord in northern Mexico, but somehow I suspect the money
involved would give him a plot of land about the size of a Maytag
dishwasher box, and a drug empire consisting of a half bottle of Advil... ;
- -)

I've dealt with Paul several times in the past - he'll come through.  I
imagine the reality of the effort involved for this task was a bit of a
surprise to him.

Steven Charlton

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 16:44:03 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: New Site: World Maps

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> >Worlds of the Spinward Marches
> >http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Worlds.html
>
> Bravo!!
>
> Excellent job here, these could be printed out and used as great handouts
> or as the basis of a pilot's guide.

Second that!  Those are phenomenal!

Perhaps one day, the entier Spinward Marches will be available on
the web.  :-)

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 18:24:46 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Getting [OT] - Copyright - (Traveller Range #5 - V. Long)

Unless others are interested in this thread, I think its getting OT
and will take if off-list.

"Carl D. Cravens" wrote:

> On Sun, 06 Jun 1999 02:02:55 -0400, Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
> >You're using the ordinary lay definition of copy. If my hand moves the
> >brush, its my "original work of authorship fixed in a tangible medium".
> >It is not the original painter's work. (Potentially, but its might
> >conceiveably be a derivative work).
>
> Your hand moving the brush is not a creative effort... it is a
> mechanical one.  The creative effort comes from your mind, and all your
> mind did was attempt to copy a painting.  The key word above is
> "original" and your painting is not.

Unfortunately, case law does not agree with you.
While in the abstract, many people may consider a hand-painted
'copy' the same as a 'photocopy' in terms of 'originality', copyright
law (and most laws) have no problem defining words differently
from their common parlance meanings.  A hand-painted copy
requires skill and creativity to produce, while you and I may
differ on the amount of creativity involved, and that might
vary greatly by the painting (after all, there are some paintings
that are nothing but a blue square on a canvas), compared to
a mechanical reporduction, such as a photocopy, the distinction
should be clear.

My painting may be a 'rip-off', just using the idea of the other artist,
but idea's aren't protected by copyright.

[snip more of the same argument]

> >A "copy" (layman's definition) is not a "copy" (legal definition) when its
> >an "original work of authorship" (also legal terms of art).
>
> I don't see where the law differentiates between types of copies.  A
> copy is a copy is a copy.

Again, the law, where it defines words, tends to define them narrowly,
and they get further narrowed in subsequent case law.  If a work,
no matter how produced, meets the criteria for an original work of
authorship, its a "work" and not a "copy", for the purposes of the
law.  There is still a bit of "magic words" used in the law, especially
in wills and realestate, and I guess there always will be.

> >Therefore, not original enough to qualify for copyright.
>
> And your copy of a painting is? I don't see the difference. The second
> photographer went through a great deal of effort to design the set,
> choose a costume, pose his model, take his photographs... yet it was
> declared to be an infringement on the first photographer's rights to his
> work.  How is it you think that by applying the paint to canvas with a
> brush involves a creative effort that was not present in the second
> photograph?

As I mentioned before, photography issues in copyright are much more
complex and push the envelope of relevant theories.  TAS designated
Gray Zone.  The courts are confused here just as much as most people.
Some judges have said in UK copyright disputes that a table of contents
alone _may_ qaulify for copyright protection.

[snip]

> The map is the work presented on page 23.  It is a graphical
> representation of the data presented on page 22.  I think your only
> argument for lack of copyright of the work is the nature of the data,
> but I contend that the data is of a creative nature and subject to
> copyright.

Which book are you talking about?  I'm not sure where the SM
data is first presented.

The data can qualify for copyright.  So can the map representing it
on page 23.  So can my map.

[snip]

> >Selling it complicates the issue, greatly.

[snip]

> Outside of Fair Use and trademark issues, sale doesn't complicate it at
> all... copyright violation occurs whether you sell it or not if you
> didn't have the copyright holder's permission and your copy does not
> fall under the Fair Use clause.

Distribution is a separate type of infringement.  It also implicates
trademark law, as well as state laws (and the EU laws, IIRC) about
Misrepresentation.  And the theories for these other types of laws
quickly bleed over into what should be a discrete issue, contaminating
copyright jurisprudence.  Its a flood and you can't stop it.
You are certainly correct that the mere act of reproduction meets the criteria
for infringement, assuming the Fair Use doctrine is not implicated (but the
Fair Use anaylsis happens before the infringement analysis, i.e, Sec 106
of the copyright act, is subject to Sec 107: the Fair Use section; so the
analysis should be:

(1) Is the allegedly infringed work protected by copyright?;
if No, case over
if Yes, then (2) Is the allegedly infringing work/copy a fair use of the first work?;
if Yes, case over
if No, then (3) has the defendant infringed the copyright owner's exclusive rights
to reproduce the work, prepare derivative works, distribute copies, perform
the work, or publicly display the work?
if Yes, infringement - award damages
if No, case over - defendant's work if fine.


>
> >Data is not protected, generally speaking.  Certain types of
> >databases do qualify for protection, based upon the originality
> >of the database based on the collection of the information.
>
> Surprisingly, it's not as protected as folks generally think. Look for
> Feist Communications of Wichita, KS vs some dinky Kansas phone company,
> concerning the outright copying of their phone book. Until this case,
> the courts had always ruled in favor of "sweat of my brow" defendants...
> they did all the work to compile the data, so they owned it. In this
> case, the court ruled that the white pages of a phone book contained no
> creative effort and no creative arrangement, so anybody could copy the
> contents.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard this case and others related
to it.  I have a particulary familiarity with it.  I agree with that opinion.

> The sticky point of Traveller system data is that it wasn't
> *collected*... it was *created*. Producing the data was a creative
> effort.

Correct.  It is part of a copyrighted work.  Its protected.  Even if it
were presented alone, it should be protected, IMO.

> And a map reflecting the data is simply another way of
> presenting it.

No.  Presenting something in a different way is expression.
If done with enough originality, its worthy of copyright protection
on its own.  It has a shot at being a derivative work.  Not
definitely, but maybe.  However, GDW/FFE created a map
and published it.  There is little doubt that it is independently
copyrighted as a graphical work.  But whats original to that
graphical work?  NOT the data it incoporates.  That data is
already protected.  The map copyright covers the "original"
contributions added.  Likewise, my map (when I finish it)
_could_ qualify for copyright on its own, but only to the
"original" elements that I add.  (Note: I wouldn't think
about ever letting my map see the light of day without
permission from FFE).

IMO, but reasonable people can differ, there isn't a whole
lot of originality in a map reflecting the data of the SM.
Both are "functional" - a bad thing for copyrights as it makes
them weaker.  Black and white dots (or colored circles if you've got the
poster map), the arrangement of which is already pre-determined
by the hex-grid system, political borders, a legend, the names of
the subsectors and planets, etc.  I think that two people, given the
same data and hex-grid would come up with substantially similar maps.


> >Well, the US courts are sometimes categorically wrong on these issues.
> >Perhaps even often wrong.  So that has no value, academically speaking.
>
> Unfortunately... whatever the courts say is *right* until they change
> their minds. The courts interpret the law. Their opinions, even if they
> change them later, are the only ones that count.

I'm not going to argue this on the list.  Courts make errors.  The only
way a court can correct them is if someone appeals.  Even then,
there are errors.  Its because courts make mistakes (not that they
make mistakes most or even a lot of the time), especially in technical
issues, such as copyright, trademark and patent, that the US created
a separate appellate court for this stuff.  Its because they make mistakes
that you don't even want to take the chance in court.  Of course, they have
to work from Congressionally-created laws, so who can blame them.

Not to mention that there are US Federal Circuits that have rulings
contrary to each other time.  That creates a difference in Federal law
based on the region you're in.  When it becomes a big enough problem,
the Supreme Court will take the case, hopefully.  Whether the SC does
or doesn't, both Circuits can't be right, they can both be wrong.  ;-)

[snip]

> Ya know... this really doesn't resemble what I recall as being Fair Use.
> In fact, it doesn't really jive with the excerpt you posted earlier in
> your message.
>
> I see no mention of "recreational purpose" in the Fair Use law.

The Fair Use law says "such as".  The fair use factors are open-ended.
Throw in the kitchen sink.  In law school, we were taught to say that:
'Because the fair use elements described in the Copyright act are a
non-exhaustive description of individually non-determinative factors,
to which a court may freely add issues it deems relevant and worthy,
designed to suggest the type of analysis that a court should perform in
a given case, applying traditional rules of statutory construction is
both unnecessary and non-productive."

You have to look at case-law to see what they really use.
Varies greatly.

> If you're copying it out of a book that you already own and you aren't giving the
> copies
> to anyone else, then it does have zero effect.

Remember that repoduction alone is technically infringement.  But,
there is a library and archiving exception.

> And as I see it, since you've copied it to play a game and not to
> criticize, comment, report or teach, it doesn't fall under Fair Use.

I'll admit, its no slam dunk for me, and there are points on the
other side, but I think I'll win by a clear margin (1 touchdown,
2 soccer goals, 3 hocky goals, whichever scoring metaphor
you prefer).

There is an informative, if 5 years out of date, FAQ here,
that discusses these issues well:

ftp://ftp.aimnet.com/pub/users/carroll/law/copyright/faq/part2

I'm sure you'll want an on-list response, but any replies from
me will be off-list (unless its clease

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 19:26:37 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: New Site: World Maps

DISCLAIMER:
While all information in this post is believed to be correct at the
time of writing, this article is for educational purposes only and is
not intended as legal advice.  If you require legal advice, you
should consult with a legal practitioner licensed to practice in your
jurisdiction.

Rob, the agreements/licenses you have with Loren and Marc are
going to govern your rights to the maps you didn't create from scratch.
Most probably, you have none and GDW/FFE and DGP/Sanger has
them.  Unless there is something "original" about the colors and details
you used, it won't indepently qualify for copyright (green grass, brown
deserts, blue water - not very "original") and would be considered a
derivative work made with permission - rights to the author of the
underlying work.

The date of creation of the works may be important.  (I'm guessing that
some of these are pre-1989).

You're problems with DGP should be handled separately, i.e.,
don't use 'self-help' by infringing their copyright because they
didn't pay you for something else.  However, if you license is
valid, its still valid.

You would have the copyright to maps you created.
Depending on the date, the notice may be necessary to protect
your rights.

Since 1988, you are no longer required to put the copyright
notice on works you create. If the works
are pre-1988, what Paul has done is publish the works without
notice.  If Rob did this, he could very well abandon his rights.

I'm not certain that an infringer is at any greater liability risk
for not including the copyright notice when he is already
infringing by displaying publicly without permission.  The presence
of the copyright symbol puts infringers on notice that the work
is copyrighted.  The advantage for the copyright owner is that
"statutory damages", damaged automatically ordered by law,
will be awarded in addition to normal infringement damages.
Neither can the defendant plead "innocent infringement"
as a defense. As a general note:  notice is no longer required.
Nor is it necessary.  But its good to do.  And free.


Copyright notice should have:
C-in-a-circle or "Copyright" or "Copr."
+
The year of first publication
+
Name of copyright owner.

So this notice:
"This drawing © Robert Prior, 19nn, based on a map © Game Designers
Workshop, 19nn. Used with permission."

For the Rob-modified maps, the notice need only read:
"This drawing © Game Designers Workshop, 19nn. Used with permission."

The (C) Robert Prior, 19nn, isn't accurate.  If its done with permission,
you don't get the copyright, the original owner never gave it up, they
merely licensed you to use it.  Adding something informational,
such as

"Modified with permission, by Robert Prior, 19nn."
isn't necessary but its helpful.  Potentially, this will protect your
"right of attribution".  Attribution rights vary, but tend to be
substantially stronger outside the US.  I have only a passing
knowledge of them.


Bloo

Robert Prior wrote:

> >On the heals of the MAC Vs. PC file format debate...  Using
> >a Hex editor, various graphic file editors, a text editor, and
> >a few files I discovered on the HIWG CD.... I built a new
> >page:
> >
> >Worlds of the Spinward Marches
> >http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Worlds.html
> >
> >I've colorized the following maps and posted them to
> >the site.
> >
> >Regina - Regina / Spinward Marches 1910
> >Dinom - Lanth / Spinward Marches 1811
> >Victoria - Lanth / Spinward Marches 1817
> >Echiste - Lanth / Spinward Marches 2313
> >Pysadi - Aramis / Spinward Marches 3008
> >Fulacin - Rhylanor / Spinward Marches 2613
> >Risek - Rhylanor / Spinward Marches 2712
>
> And here we have a perfect real-world example for copyright. IIRC, Steve
> Daniels and Eris are lawyers, so hopefully they can explain the legal
> position.
>
> All of these were taken from work that I created. My original GIFs were in
> colour (and still show as colour in my GIF viewer, although Netscape shows
> then as B&W.  My copyright notices, included as part of the Get Info window
> for the files, seem to have been stripped off.
>
> Regina is based on the map published by DGP. I colourized it and added a
> couple of very minor details.  I was granted permission to do this, and to
> distribute my version of the map, by Joe Fugate, who then owned DGP. The
> current owner, Roger Sanger, has not rescinded this permission. (Nor has he
> paid me the money DGP owes me for the Sydkai article and several equipment
> sheets, but that's a separate issue.)
>
> Dinom, Victoria, Pysadi, and Fulacin are based on maps published by GDW. I
> colourized them and made some minor mods. Loren gave me permission to
> distribute them free-of-charge, although the obligatory copyright and
> permission notices seem to have been stripped off (probably when converting
> the file from Mac to Windows).
>
> Echiste and Risek are my own designs. Again, the copyright notices are missing.
>
> The copyright notice for the modified maps read:
>
> This drawing © Robert Prior, 19nn, based on a map © Game Designers
> Workshop, 19nn. Used with permission.
>
> (At least, this is what Loren asked me to include at the time. Joe wanted
> the same thing with the DGP map.)
>
> My own maps should have a copyright notice for just myself.
>
> So the legal questions are:
>
> 1) Who actually owns the copyright to these works?
>
> 2) What should the copyright notice say?
>
> This is not a trivial question, as I am trying to sell an article on
> Echiste to Pyramid and I don't want it rejected because part of it has
> previously appeared on the Internet. Ditto for Risek. And I suspect that
> the rights to the GDW maps reverted to Marc, who will probably have his own
> opinion. (Knowing Marc, he'll probably be OK with the drawing being
> available, as long as the notice is correct, but he should be asked first.)
>
> Paul, I'd appreciate it if you'd pull the Echiste and Risek maps until I
> hear back from Scott Harding about my submissions. (Hopefully soon, as he's
> had them for several months now.)  If Pyramid wants the articles, I'll
> suggest that they get you to do the maps.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 13:39:36 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

The only thing I will say about the pathetically poor film "event" that
is Episode One:

Jar Jar Binks Must Die.

I can't believe someone beat me to "www.jarjarbinksmustdie.com".
Nothing there yet though.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 18:08:20 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: [OT] Re: First In Software?

"David P. Summers" wrote:

> >OTOH, a quite serviceable Celeron 366 MHz or faster (with 128k of
> >integrated L2 cache) can be had for US $500 or so, with an extra
> >$250-$300 or so for a 17" monitor.  That's about half the price of an
> >iMac....
>
> Half???
>
> I've seen iMacs for $899

You can get Celeron systems for $350 - less than half.
The Celeron 366 chip is ideal right now - it will overclock
stably to 550 MHz.  And you can find the processor for
$60.  Add MB, case, RAM, vid card, sound card, speakers,
HD, floppy, monitor, mouse and keyboard - and you're done.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 17:15:36 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output

Mark Fletcher wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> My interpretation of Starports was as follows
> Class A: Can build starships, jump drives and spaceships
> Class B: Can build starships. Cannot build Jump drives. Can build Space
> craft
> Class C: Cannot build starships. Cannot build Jump drives. Can build Space
> craft
> 
> The definitions ive assummed for starships and spacecraft are:
> spacecraft: any vessel able to travel space without FTL
> starship: any vesself able to travel space with FTL
> 
> Is this a fair interpretation of the rules?

'Fraid not.

Every since CT, a starship, by definition, is nothing more
(or less) than a spaceship with a jump drive.

Class A starports can build repair space/starships because
they can build both spaceships and jump drives.
Class B can build/repair any space-going vessel but cannot
build jump drives. I believe they can _repair_ jump drives,
depending on the damage (maybe just a very old house rule).
Class C can repair most space-going vessels and doesn't have
a prayer of even fixing a jump drive.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 17:19:29 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: RE: A plea for cinema restraint...

Jory Earl posted:
>
>At 02:12 PM 6/7/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>>Oh man, I can't believe you gave that part away!  Next you'll be telling
>>>them about Boba Fett cheating at the grav-ball game and killing Yoda, who
>>>is miraculously brought back to life by Jar-Jar's people.
>>
>>Hey, the best part of that resurrection scene was where Jar-Jar volunteers
>>to give his life to provide the life-force necessary to resurrect Yoda.
And
>>you think Yoda talked funny *before* he died... 
>
>I didn't want to mention that part..MAJOR spoiler, you know?  :)  What
>irked me was the return of the Ewoks.

Yeah, the hairless ones *really* looked stupid. Anybody figure out where
they got that mini-nuke? Cool fx! I'm really surprised Lucas left it out of
the trailer.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 15:28:15 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Missles and Mirrors

Sun, 6 Jun 1999 04:49:26 -0400 (EDT)
>From: Michael A Newman <manst4+@pitt.edu>

>If preserving the integrity of reflectivity of a mirror-surfaced missle
>(during handling, firing, etc.) is a concern, then how about layering the
>mirror under some other coating, ablative or not?  Even if both layers
>eventually get ripped by the PDL, might not they prolong the average
>missile's life enough that a barrage becomes useful?

Actually, you just put on a shell (padded underneath, that you eject).
But you really don't need to protect from all directions, so what
you really just do is deploy a mirror in front of you after you launch.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #719
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 7 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 720



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: How do you join the TML?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #719
[OT] Re: First In Software?
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
re: Reference to PDL's
re: Reference to PDL's
Re: detecting missiles
re: Lasers
re: ST Ship Displacements 
Re: Maximum ship-building output
Re: [OT] Re: First In Software?
Re: [OT] Re: First In Software?
Re: Frozen watch...
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Frozen watch...;
How do you join the TML?
Re: Building your first Starship (was Re: Maximum ship-building  output)
Re: A plea for cinema restraint (mild spoilers)...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 18:34:56 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

At 01:39 PM 6/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>The only thing I will say about the pathetically poor film "event" that
>is Episode One:
>
>Jar Jar Binks Must Die.
>
>I can't believe someone beat me to "www.jarjarbinksmustdie.com".
>Nothing there yet though.
>
>Bloo
>
>


Too bad.  I loved the film but the Jar-jar thing damn near ruined it for
me.  what was Lucas thinking??!!!
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 15:36:11 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: How do you join the TML?

Rob Miracle wrote:
> 
> send mail to
> 
> traveller-request@lists.imagiconline.com
> 
> In the body say:
> 
> subscribe
> 
> Rob

Along those lines, is the official address now
traveller@lists.imagiconline.com?



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 08:50:34 EST
From: Craig Brain <cjbrain@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #719

I'd like to thank all the people who have reponded to my question on the 
Lost Keith Brothers Supplements. It's good to hear that so many people have 
some faith left, I won't mention it again for ages...


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 16:00:22 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: [OT] Re: First In Software?

Mon, 07 Jun 1999 18:08:20 -0400
Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>

>> >OTOH, a quite serviceable Celeron 366 MHz or faster (with 128k of
>> >integrated L2 cache) can be had for US $500 or so, with an extra
>> >$250-$300 or so for a 17" monitor.  That's about half the price of an
>> >iMac....

>> Half???

>> I've seen iMacs for $899

>You can get Celeron systems for $350 - less than half.
>The Celeron 366 chip is ideal right now - it will overclock
>stably to 550 MHz.  And you can find the processor for
>$60.  Add MB, case, RAM, vid card, sound card, speakers,
>HD, floppy, monitor, mouse and keyboard - and you're done.

Well, to the original point, the iMac was much less than twice
the $750-$800 cost the original poster quoted.

A monitor similar to the ones that Apple uses cost $200 and
up.  So you are already well above 1/2 the cost of the iMac
system.  Then you have to look at everything you get (or
we get back to the old problem we had with the Mac Plus where
someone would compare a barebones system that didn't have
all the same stuff and often was cheaply made).

But this is off topic, so I'll stop here.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 19:13:28 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

> I think the above subjects had been mentioned before, so I don't 
> believe I spoiled anything (Although it pissed me off how the King 
> got assassinated! Whoops... did I just say the wrong thing...?)


> Oh man, I can't believe you gave that part away!  Next you'll be 
> telling them about Boba Fett cheating at the grav-ball game and 
> killing Yoda, who is miraculously brought back to life by Jar-Jar's 
> people.


> Hey, the best part of that resurrection scene was where Jar-Jar 
> volunteers to give his life to provide the life-force necessary to 
> resurrect Yoda.  And you think Yoda talked funny *before* he 
> died... 

> I didn't want to mention that part..MAJOR spoiler, you know?  :)  
> What irked me was the return of the Ewoks.

> Yeah, the hairless ones *really* looked stupid. Anybody figure 
> out where they got that mini-nuke? Cool fx! I'm really surprised 
> Lucas left it out of the trailer.

Boba Fett AKA Darth Maul's unmasking after the grav-ball game 
was great, but I was upset that Lucas decided to make the Ewoks 
the race who built the Millennium Falcon... and the movie never really 
explained why they sold it to Boba Fett.  I figured that he gave the 
Ewoks the mini-nuke as payment for the ship - but when I saw it the 
second time I realized that they never explicitly said it in the movie.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 21:46:25 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Reference to PDL's

Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net> writes:

>  I was thinking that under a house rule you could allow that instead of
>the standard Dif mods you could maybe use it to attack multiple targets by
>a minor change to the ROF chart on page #130 of the FF&S book. (Look below)

>      RATE OF FIRE BENEFITS in SPACE COMBAT
>(Shots per      (Dif Mods       (Shots per      (Number of
>30 min turn)    to fire task)   5 second turn)  Targets per turn)    FA mult
>    10             NONE            1/36               1                 1
>    50         -1 difficulty       1/8                2**               1*
>   100         -2 difficulty       1/4                3**               1*
>   200         -3 difficulty       1/2                4**               2
>   400         -4 difficulty       1                  5**               4
>   800         -5 difficulty       2                  6**               8
>
>  *Standard note for Laser area size due to fire rate.
> **You may choose to fire at multiple targets up to the number rated for
>the current ROF of the weapon instead of gaining the benefits of the
>Difficulty Modifiers. If weapon is targeted at less then the max number of
>targets you may modify the Diff mod of one or more targets by the
>difference.
<snip>
>  Tell me what you think?


It looks reasonable to me - Someone else can do the maths. It doesn't work
for FFS2 lasers as they stand without recalculating the USD rating because
the ROF is factored in as extra damage, not as reduced difficulty to hit.

>  Well i would use my Amiga, but it's hard to find modems that work with it
>here and it is too slow (Old 2000 with 16Mhz CPU). Now if I could just
>afford one of them 070 accelerators for under $100, then I might switch.

I used my STe for as long as I could, then went to MacOS...

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 21:42:12 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Reference to PDL's

Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net> writes:

> Ok Here is the Missile (I hope it reads alright)

<snip>

>MK VIII Heavy Missile ìShadowî
>TL:14
>Warhead: Nuclear 100 kt Yield.                          Mass:   72kg
>Propulsion: EAPlaC SF Rocket 4 x 599kg (400 tns trust)   Mass: 2386kg
>Guidance: Seeker (Image Recognition)                    Mass: 1000kg
>Sensors: Passive EMS 60K range  Proc Vol:0.4             Mass:  800kg

This requires a launch within 1/5th of a light second if it is to acquire
the target with its own sensors, else it needs a command feed?

>         Ant Diam: 5m Ant Area: 0.6 m2 Ant Vol: 0.03     Mass:   30kg
>ECM: EMM    Vol: 1.40 m3  Rad: 0.7 m2                    Mass:  700kg
>Average Mass:       3.795 tons
>G Rating:   400 / 3.795 = 105.4
>Fuel Consumption:  11.25 m3 per hour (this is where we have probs)
>Fuel Endurance:   2.386 / 11.25 = 0.212
>G Turns:  105.4 x 0.212 = 22.3 (round to 22)
>Max Gs per Turn: 22

If I read this correctly, your engine can burn at 105G in a turn but could
only achieve this for 20%ish of a turn before it completely fuels out? If
so, consider dropping 3 of the EAPLaC modules, which changes the G rating
to (400-300) / (3.795-1.8) = which still gives you a 50G rating....

>  Ok what do you guys think? We don't know how much this thing costís but
>we have figured in the 2-3 Mega Credit range. Kind of expensive, but the
>rich Solarian's which also Value lives (Only there own of course) above
>money try to use stand off weapons as much as possible.

With a 60000km sensor range it's not very stand off. It needs an active
data feed. Consider better sensors.

Now... if I remember correctly I'll actually calculate the range that the
missile has if firing at full thrust.

Assuming initially at rest, and 30 min turns, plus fuel for 6 min (360
seconds burn), this missile flames out (goes inertial) after it has
travelled:

s = ut + 0.5at^2

U=0
t=360
a=105x10 = 1050 ms-2

so s = 0 + 0.5 x 1050 * 360 *360 = 68040 km

with a terminal velocity (assuming all thrust at target) of v = u +at
=0+1050x360
= 378,000 ms-1 or 378 km s-1, or ~1.3% lightspeed.

Which gives the missile 0.5 x 3.9 x (378,000)^2 J = 278,624 MJ..... if it
collides....

Personnally, I think it's under ranged and under sensored...

There again, I'm not a FFS1/TNEr at heart.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 21:49:41 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: detecting missiles

Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net> writes:

> BTW does the person who wrote the FF&S book frequent this list? I got a
>couple of rules questions.

Dave Golden (FFS2 co-author) is on the TML

I don't think either of the FFS1 authors are on the list.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 21:51:33 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Lasers

"William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net> writes:

Impressive calcs...

>To be honest, I can't remember the formulae for ovoid solids nor elipses...
>so I'll stop here. But, suffice it to say that a kinetic projectile
>intercept requires high velocities, large targets, and fairly close ranges
>(on a space scale).

My head hurts....

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 00:51:58 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: ST Ship Displacements 

Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net> writes:
> So what I was wondering, does anyone know the Displacement Value for these
>Original series ships?

From (1)

>  Constellation class Heavy Cruiser (Same as the 1701 Enterprise)

Constitution Class XI - 160 to 180 mt

>  Romulan War bird

Romulan Bird of Prey Class VI Cruiser - 60 - 80 mt

>  Klingon D7 Cruiser (Battle cruiser from the Original series)

D7A Paingiver Class VIII Cruiser - 100 to 120 mt

I assume these are MegaTonnes (ie 1,000,000 metric tonne units)

From (2) 50 metric tonnes = 1 SCU (standard cargo unit) = 6.75m3 =
1.5m*1.5m*3m

1 mt = 20,000 SCU = 135,000m3

I leave the rest to your calculator... ;-)

Sources
(1) Star Trek Starship Tactical Combat Simulator, FASA, 1986
(2) 2nd Edition Star Trek Ship Construction Manual, FASA, 1985

Dom (who likes the old FASA game as a fun space battle, especially when he
flys Romulan Winged Defenders which have enough power to attack from cloak
with multiple torpedoes.... exit 1x Excelsior, 2 x Enterprise for no
losses) ;-)

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 19:53:03 -0400
From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output

>Class A starports can build repair space/starships because
>they can build both spaceships and jump drives.
>Class B can build/repair any space-going vessel but cannot
>build jump drives. I believe they can _repair_ jump drives,
>depending on the damage (maybe just a very old house rule).
>Class C can repair most space-going vessels and doesn't have
>a prayer of even fixing a jump drive.

What about annual maintenance? GT(FT) says annual maintenance maintenance
can be performed at a Class IV or V starport. (This corresponds, I believe,
to Class B and A). Further it says ship's crew can complete annual
maintenance themselves at a Class III (C) starport in an extended period.

I always believed that annual maintenance was primarily for the jump drive.
I thought that they had to be balanced, or have the spark plugs changed or
something.  You know hook it up to that big red box in the garage with all
those dials and LED's and stuff, so the mechanic could tell you that the
fuel injector was burning too rich, and you needed another pollution control
chip at $180 a whack---oops, I digress.

Anyway has GT strayed dramatically from CT on this point?  I seem to recall
reading about the special equipment only available at Class A or B starports
to setup jump drives yearly, with a table of chances for misjump if
maintenance wasn't carried out. Can someone tell me the source and how close
the GT(FT) version is to CT?


Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 17:17:15 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: First In Software?

Steve Daniels wrote:
 
> You can get Celeron systems for $350 - less than half.
> The Celeron 366 chip is ideal right now - it will overclock
> stably to 550 MHz.  And you can find the processor for
> $60.  Add MB, case, RAM, vid card, sound card, speakers,
> HD, floppy, monitor, mouse and keyboard - and you're done.

Impressive:

Celeron ~$60
MB ~$50
Case~$50
RAM ~$150
VidCard ~$50-$100
Sound Card ~$60
CD ~$50
Speakers (crappy ones) ~$20
HDD ~$180
Monitor (really crappy one)~$150
Ethernet card ~$50
Floppy ~$50
Mouse ~$10 (gawdawful one)
Keyboard ~$30
USB card (if it's not on the MB) ~$50

total ~$960

Imac _list_ $1195. Your bargain Celeron is running at 80% of the cost of
an iMac, for really crappy components. This actually isn't a Apples vs
Wintels picture, either.

I know, I've had to support people who were _sure_ they could buy a
computer for less than the $1200 we usually tell 'em to spend on a name
brand system, such as a Dell or Gateway. They usually do save a few
bucks, and pay for it with downtime, endless waits for warantee service,
etc.

Buying the parts and rolling your own has long looked very attractive,
but in practice, it's rarely saved much. Buying name brand components
(ie: SoundBlaster cards, not SB 'compatible', ATI video cards, not Lucky
Golden Dragon Computer Supply and Cannery ones, etc;-) usually runs the
cost up to more than what that same computer put together by a bigger
manufacturer will cost you. It's amazing what discounts bulk purchasing
at wholesale pricing gets you.


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 20:33:19 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: First In Software?

At 06:08 PM 6/7/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>"David P. Summers" wrote:
>
>> >OTOH, a quite serviceable Celeron 366 MHz or faster (with 128k of
>> >integrated L2 cache) can be had for US $500 or so, with an extra
>> >$250-$300 or so for a 17" monitor.  That's about half the price
of an
>> >iMac....
>>
>> Half???
>>
>> I've seen iMacs for $899
>
>You can get Celeron systems for $350 - less than half.
>The Celeron 366 chip is ideal right now - it will overclock
>stably to 550 MHz.  And you can find the processor for

	Really? Is that with or without "heroic" cooling? Check out
http://www.accsdata.com/drffreeze/Dr%20Ffreeze.htm for somebody with
_way_ too much time to kill.

- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 17:23:03 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Frozen watch...

My assumptions about the frozen watch follow from a JTAS article about
High Guard and Trillion Credit Squadron (and yes, I am too lazy to look
up the citation).  In HG ship design, the USP crew factor is simply
factor of ten, and combat hits to "crew" knock the USP down by one
factor of ten at a time.  The JTAS article suggested instead, if I
recall correctly, that the USP crew factor be a multiple of, I think
100.  

For example:
Ship #1 crew = 400 
HG USP for crew = 2 (10 to the second power)
JTAS USP for crew = 4 (4 times 100)

Ship #2 crew = 4,400
HG USP for crew = 3 (10 to the third power)
JTAS USP for crew = 44 (44 times 100)

So if you get a crew hit in space combat under the JTAS article's
system, you knocked off a factor of 100.  The frozen watch could be
awakened 100 at a time to make up for losses.  Ship #1 might have a
frozen watch of 100, for example, which would make up for one crew hit. 
Shipe #2's frozen watch might be 1000, to make up for 10 crew hits.

Or something like that, anyway.

Based on the foregoing, I've always assumed that the frozen watch
rotates with the other watches.  Ship #1 has 400 crew plus 100 frozen
watch, for a real total of 500.  During any given period, some 100 crew
persons are in low berth and the other 400 are serving. Every crew
member (with the likely exceptions of senior officers, department heads,
and senior NCOs) serves in the frozen watch in regular rotation.  What
that rotation is I'm not sure.  Does every jump have a new frozen watch?
or maybe a new watch is frozen every five or ten jumps?  If you change
the frozen watch too often, it seems to me that you increase the number
of casualties coming out of low berth.  If you don't change it often
enough, the frozen watch doesn't have as many of the same shared
experiences as you would like for good unit cohesion and morale.  So
it's a difficult question.  

I don't subscribe to the idea that people choose or are chosen for
frozen watch because they're antisocial, psychotic, or whatever.  It's
not good for morale, for one thing.  For another, when you wake them up
to make up for battle losses, you want them to be able to jump in and
work with the rest of the surviving crew, so they shouldn't be the
alienated and hard-to-work-with types.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:49:38 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Tuesday, 8 June 1999 5:11
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...


>
>>I think the above subjects had been mentioned before, so I don't believe I
>>spoiled anything (Although it pissed me off how the King got assassinated!
>>Whoops... did I just say the wrong thing...?)
>>
>>--  The Roc
>
>
>Oh man, I can't believe you gave that part away!  Next you'll be telling
>them about Boba Fett cheating at the grav-ball game and killing Yoda, who
>is miraculously brought back to life by Jar-Jar's people.
>

J-man,
So you have seen it!  I didn't expect that race of Elvis' though... kinda
spoiled the effects for me.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:20:30 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Frozen watch...;

- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, 8 June 1999 10:41
Subject: Re: Frozen watch...



>
>I don't subscribe to the idea that people choose or are chosen for
>frozen watch because they're antisocial, psychotic, or whatever.  It's
>not good for morale, for one thing.  For another, when you wake them up
>to make up for battle losses, you want them to be able to jump in and
>work with the rest of the surviving crew, so they shouldn't be the
>alienated and hard-to-work-with types.
>
>--Glenn
>

Good point, but in reality, what makes good sense isn't what officialdom
always does.  I agreed with the "antisocial for FW" idea in principle.  The
squad/section/platoon/whatever commander has had enough of Smythe's
behaviour and thinks a stint in FW for a year or so would do him (the
commander, not Smythe) good, orders issued, paper's signed, Smythe reports
to the FWOD or FWMO, processed, and is popsicled.

I've even seen a civvy business send someone they couldn't really spare out
on a minor service call-out to get him out of the Manager's hair.  The guy
was brilliant and they sent him out on a job to replace a light bulb where
travelling time would take most of the day or something like that, while
"real" jobs sat on the bench... because the Manager wanted a day without him
around.  Not good business in my opinion, but r/l doesn't always work by
those rules for some reason?

For similar reasons, I've seen a less qualified staff member sent on a
week-long seminar junket to get him out of the Bosses face when another more
qualified staff member was entitled to go and be trained up!  That's just
two that I remember off the top of my head from civvy street... don't get me
started with some of the ones I am starting to recall from my service years
(APC's, rations, backhoes... sheesh!).

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 18:15:07 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: How do you join the TML?

> From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
 
> I know this is a stupid question, but how does one join the TML? I have a
> friend who would like to know. It's been many, many moons since I've done
> it, and I can't for the life of me remember how to go about it. I don't
> have the info available on my hard drive anymore, apparently.

Look at the end of every digest.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 21:38:22 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Building your first Starship (was Re: Maximum ship-building  output)

> >> My interpretation of Starports was as follows
> >> Class A: Can build starships, jump drives and spaceships
> >> Class B: Can build starships. Cannot build Jump drives. Can build Space
> >> craft
> >> Class C: Cannot build starships. Cannot build Jump drives. Can build Space
> >> craft
> >
> >Those are the rules.  However, AS A PLOT DEVICE, I allow two exceptions:
> >
> >1.  On a late TL8 world, Professor Frink is using prototype TL 9 technology
> >to build a scout ship in his back yard to explore the universe.  Yes, it's a
> >big back yard.  No, I don't know how he's paying for it, maybe he got a
> >grant.
> >
> 
> This is similar to my situation at 
> http://www.datatone.com/~robb/traveller/Eideann.html
> 
> A balkanized world with a general TL8, one government (a Fuedal Technocracy)
> has just discovered the Jump-1 Drive at one of their secret research labs 
> in a low tidal flux area. (I have been assuming that Jump-0 drives are
> possible at TL8, but perhaps I am wrong). They are about to send a scout ship
> to explore nearby worlds (as soon as I build the thing, and decide what it
> looks like), and hopefully get the jump on their competition (two
> oligarchies).
> 
> I rolled up the sector according to the alternate world generation system in
> galactic 2.4, and there was only 1 spacefaring civilization in the entire 
> sector, so I made them my homeworld. 

Under High Guard (remember that??), a planetary navy could construct spaceships of the planet's tech level regardless of what kind of starport they had.  This included starships for worlds over TL9.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 21:49:13 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint (mild spoilers)...

Steve Daniels writes:

>The only thing I will say about the pathetically poor film "event" that
>is Episode One:

   Saw the film on Saturday afternoon.  Couldn't disagree more.  It is a
cautionary tale of what can happen when democracy is allowed to decay and
men with too much personal ambition are allowed to manipulate events.  The
parallels between a certain Republic senator and a certain 20th century
German political leader (they even end up with the same titles...) were not
lost on me.

>Jar Jar Binks Must Die.

  Jar Jar is a temp replacement for C-3PO (aka comic relief, aka the lucky
coward) until the second or third movie.  No doubt at some point he will
rejoin his buddies in the swamps with their funky globe weapons.

>I can't believe someone beat me to "www.jarjarbinksmustdie.com".
>Nothing there yet though.

   Lucas would be happy that you find the character memorable, even if you
hate it.  The fact that at no point did he actually exist (there was no one
running around in a Jar Jar suit...all computer) is what I will remember,
because it was so damn convincing.  Can a new movie version of "On the
Waterfront" starring John Wayne, Humphrey Bogart, and Marilyn Monroe be far
behind?

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #720
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 8 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 721



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Annual Maintenance
SOME OF US HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET!
Re: Kieth Brothers Lost Supplements
Re: Maximum ship-building output
Re: BayCon pictures up
Re: [Offtopic] Titan Games
Re: Frozen watch
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Downport.com three months out
Re: A plea for cinema restraint (no spoilers)...
Re: Building your first Starship (was Re: Maximum ship-building  output)
re: Reference to PDL's
re: ST Ship Displacements 
Re: A plea for cinema restraint (mild spoilers)...
Re: How do you join the TML?
Re: 
Re: [OT] Re: First In Software?
Re: A plea for cinema restraint (mild spoilers)...
RE: Vilani Food
RE: detecting missiles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 20:20:23 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Annual Maintenance

>Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 19:53:03 -0400
>From: "Judith Carlino" <jcarlino@home.com>
>Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output
>
>Can someone tell me the source and how close
>the GT(FT) version [of annual maintenance] is to CT?

The alternate annual maintenance rules in Far Trader are virtually a
word-for-word lift from TNE, p. 222. CT did not discuss frontier
maintenance, but did not specifically forbid it, either. I went with the
more general version.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 22:28:30 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: SOME OF US HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET!

Sorry for shouting, but I had to get your attention. *Please*, some
of us haven't been able to get to see the new Star Wars yet, and it's
getting difficult to avoid the spoilers. I don't usually even look at
message titles, because my mailer automatically pops up the next one
whenever I delete the current ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 19:52:46 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Kieth Brothers Lost Supplements

Here is the URL that Paul put on the list about the supplements:

http://www.primenet.com/~timmon/supplements.html

At 09:01 PM 6/7/1999 -0500, you wrote:


>I have not been able to contact Paul Sanders (or no reply so far...), and 
>to compound this, I have not heard anything from the list. What happened? 
>Or is this a subject that has been banned/done to death/forgotten? Is 
>there any news on thsi subject. Email me privately if you don't want to 
>continue this on the list. An answer is an answer and I would appreciate that.
>
>
>______________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
  Saying, I would know.
  Do not know.
  So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 21:30:06 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output

At 11:04 PM 6/4/1999 -0600, you wrote:

<snip>

>Method #1 (Most Accurate) -- Calculate the Bilateral Trade Number for every
>world with which the planet trades, consult the table on p. FT16, and add
>up all the tonnages. Don't forget to check for trade routes, and raise the
>minimum traffic to the level specified on p. FT18; this represents
>transient traffic passing through the system. The full analysis can take
>quite a lot of time and effort, but if you're doing the work for some other
>reason (naval budgets, commerce raiding, etc.) it might be worthwhile.
>
>Method #2 (Quick and Dirty) -- Add 5 to the WTN and subtract the Distance
>Modifier from the table on the top of p. FT15, using the distance to the
>nearest star system, regardless of type. Again, if the world is on a trade
>route (a pure GM call, in this case), raise the number to the minimum BTN
>for the route (10 for a Main/Xboat Route, 9 for a Feeder Route, 8 for a
>Minor Route/Jump-1 Main). Use this number and consult the table on p. FT16
>to get total trade in dtons/year.

<snip>

>[By the way, if anyone tries both methods, I could really use some feedback
>on how closely they match. I've tried a couple of data points, but not
>enough to be really comfortable that the quick and dirty method is a good
>approximation.]

I used a spreadsheet I have that calculates BTN for all planets in the SM 
against any one planet (Old early MT data, not BtC).  I plugged it in to 
calculate the data for a couple of worlds, and used the average of all of 
the amounts (2.5, 7.5, 25, 75, etc.) on the Dtons table in FT p16.  This 
spreadsheet is just for rough calculations, as it does not calculate 
distances along trade routes, but straightline distances.
The following are my results for the above two calculations (all 
calculations are in Dtons/Year):

                          Method 1                               Method 2
                    Trade           Shipyard 
Cap.          Trade          Shipyard Cap.
Glisten         61,051,098            244,204          25,000,000 
100,000
Regina           6,898,295             27,593           2,500,000 
10,000
Jewell          12,506,290             50,025           7,500,000 
30,000
Rhylanor        66,762,148            267,049          25,000,000 
100,000
Efate           16,813,668             67,255           7,500,000 
30,000
Mora           145,810,625            583,243          75,000,000 
300,000

Gram            18,616,713             74,467           7,500,000 
30,000
Mire            44,623,523            178,494          25,000,000 
100,000


Jimmy Simpson				nimrodd@fastlane.net
1735 Ridgeview Drive
Arlington, TX 76012-1947

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 19:22:44
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: BayCon pictures up

At 02:49 PM 6/7/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>A couple of photos from the Great TML Vilani BBQ are now up at:
>>
>>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/baycon.html
>>
>>If I misspelled your names, it's your own fault.
>
>Sure, blame the victim :-)

When I passed my notebook around, I did ask that people write clearly...
one request:  I know that there were a couple of people there who would be
better known by their addresses or screen names.. as I warned you, I've
completely forgotten the connections.

If you are one of these people, drop me a message telling me who you are,
and who you really are, so I can update the page.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 19:37:35 -0700
From: "Wayne" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: [Offtopic] Titan Games

> >>            (Rulebooks)
> >>                Deities & Demigods (with Cthulhu) (2013) (name inside
> >cover, some pictures colored well)[$113, VF]
> >                        ^^^
> >  <giggle>
>
>
> Wow. My jaw has dropped. I've got two, somewhere in the range of VF-NM,
not
> marked up in any way.
>
> If I didn't love the Erol Otus artwork in the Cthulhu section so much, I'd
> think about offering one of them up on E-Bay.
>

Wish I could say the same. The only thing holding mine together is the duck
tape. Needless to say, this book (esp. the Cthulhu/Elric parts) has been
very well used.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 19:49:45 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Frozen watch

> From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>

[quotation from Glenn M. Goffin's (i.e., my own) posting deleted]

> Good point, but in reality, what makes good sense isn't what officialdom
> always does.  

Of course.  My post must be taken as my view of official policy, which,
in my experience in civilian life and as a student of history, usually
more or less makes sense, especially in larger and longer-lived
organizations.  What actually happens on a ship, how those policies are
actually applied -- that's a different matter.  

Higher-ups can contrive many ways to keep someone in the frozen watch
for too long -- "faulty" warming-up system, so unsafe to thaw until
repaired; "medical reason" not to thaw without major medical facilities
available; etc.  Some captains may use the frozen watch as punishment or
reward, but I suspect that's contrary to Imperial naval regulations
(which is not to say that it's not done).  (For game purposes, this puts
some risk on the higher-ups, which are the parts usually played by PCs,
so for this reason, too, I like this approach better than making it
official policy to stick problems into cold sleep.)

You also wrote:

> I agreed with the "antisocial for FW" idea in principle.  The
> squad/section/platoon/whatever commander has had enough of Smythe's

The only canonical references (of which I'm aware) to the frozen watch
refer to it as ship crew, not something used by ground troops.  Still,
it wouldn't surprise me to find marines fairly routinely put into low
berths, especially before a long trip to an engagement.  On the other
hand, troops can't get over combat stress while sleeping; they need to
do some processing while awake, so the marines won't ordinarily be going
from combat to combat with only cold sleep in between (except in wartime
situations, if necessary, and probably sometimes in training).  

How do other groups in the Traveller universe use the frozen watch?  I
doubt the K'Kree use it at all; they don't even like getting indoors,
and certainly not getting into boxes.  The Zhodani probably have some
good psionic approaches to using cold sleep efficiently, as a way to get
over combat stress, and to minimize the psychological stress of waking
up a long long time after going to sleep.  They may even be able to
communicate with the sleeper so that the sleeper gets some shared
experiences and continuity with the other crew.  The Droyne are probably
even better at it than the Zhodani.  Vargr probably don't have any
problems, nor advantages, with frozen watch. What about Aslan and
Hivers?  
 
> I've even seen a civvy business send someone they couldn't really spare out
> on a minor service call-out to get him out of the Manager's hair.  The guy

And of course, the opposite happens commonly:  If the worst day out of
the office is better than the best day in the office, then an employee
may do whatever is necessary to get sent somewhere -- anywhere -- else. 
("Saigon -- shit!  Six weeks without an assignment.")

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 22:45:55 -0500
From: "The Akins" <igor@truserve.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

Jory Earl wrote:
> Too bad.  I loved the film but the Jar-jar thing damn near ruined it for
> me.  what was Lucas thinking??!!!

I can tell you exactly what Lucas was thinking.

My son's favorite character: Jar-Jar Binks
My son's favorite race: Gungans
My son's favorite scene: Gungans on DINOSAURS! (He practically screamed this
in the theater).

For my son's pleasure, I happily put up with Jar Jar. I consider TPM his
Star Wars, where the orginal three are mine. I couldn't be happier.

And I loved the movie.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 00:11:45 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Downport.com three months out

It has now been three months since Traveller Downport ( www.downport.com )
was launched.  I would like to thank the over four hundred unique users who
have logged over four thousand sessions with over ten thousand total page
views!  We are glad to be serving to Traveller community.  We hope to be
able to increase our coverage of the game on a regular basis.

To this end, I am asking for your help in identifying good "stuff" that
could be added to the site.  This includes suggestions for new content,
hosting of current items of interest that are scattered around the web in
bits and pieces, and also "orphaned" materials, those older items that are
not being maintained or updated by their creators any longer.

While I am at it, I'd like to mention a few of the new additions to
Downport.com

 - Rob Eaglestone's library of material ( www.downport.com/eaglestone ) on
Downport.com is still growing.  In addition to the Traveller Geek Code (IMTU
Code) and his modules on starport design, systems defense and corporate
profiles, we have added the "Burito Files" of NPCs and locations for spur of
the moment encounters

 - An new "pocket empire" PBeM game has started and is being featured on
Downport.com ( www.downport.com/pbem )  Set in an alternate universe and
using (basically) CT rules, we hope that this game will be entertaining to
the casual spectator and that it will serve as a source for "mined ideas"
for YTU!

 - Framesets?  Take a look at what we have done in collaboration with Paul
"Deckplans" Schirf ( www.downport.com/tech/deckplans.html ).  Paul was
interested in linking with Downport.com in some way, but we felt that a
simple URL mention wasn't going to do justice to the excellent material that
Paul has produced.  If this frameset idea appeals to anyone else who has
great stuff that is in need of greater exposure, let us know!

Last item: feedback on this message (length, usefulness, annoyance factor)
is also appreciated.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 00:15:24 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint (no spoilers)...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Harold D. Hale <hdhale@mindspring.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Monday, June 07, 1999 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint (mild spoilers)...


>hate it.  The fact that at no point did he actually exist (there was no one
>running around in a Jar Jar suit...all computer) is what I will remember,
>because it was so damn convincing.

I'm not going to disagree on whether or not Jar Jar was convincing or not.
However, there *was* a Jar Jar running around on stage, in fact the motion
and voice actor were one in the same. There *was* someone running around,
it's just that the Jar Jar suit was added later.

On the other hand, I must say that I found Jar Jar immensely entertaining,
for whatever that's worth.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 01:26:38 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: Building your first Starship (was Re: Maximum ship-building  output)

At 09:38 PM 6/7/99 -0400, Keven R. Pittsinger wrote:
>> A balkanized world with a general TL8, one government (a Fuedal
Technocracy)
>> has just discovered the Jump-1 Drive at one of their secret research labs 
>
>Under High Guard (remember that??), a planetary navy could construct
spaceships of the planet's tech level regardless of what kind of starport
they had.  This included starships for worlds over TL9.

Ahhh... this I overlooked and was assuming that I had to have an A starport,
which really makes no sense. I think it would be more like a D, but I'll do
some random number magic...

tc++ tm- ?tn ?t4> ?t5>++ tg- ru ge+(++) !3i() c+>- st he+ so++ vi-- va-


- -- 
I talk back / and I'm not listening
to anything you say!  -- name of band???
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 00:35:11 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: re: Reference to PDL's

At 09:42 PM 6/7/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net> writes:
>
>> Ok Here is the Missile (I hope it reads alright)
>
><snip>
>
>>MK VIII Heavy Missile ìShadowî
>>TL:14
>>Warhead: Nuclear 100 kt Yield.                          Mass:   72kg
>>Propulsion: EAPlaC SF Rocket 4 x 599kg (400 tns trust)   Mass: 2386kg
>>Guidance: Seeker (Image Recognition)                    Mass: 1000kg
>>Sensors: Passive EMS 60K range  Proc Vol:0.4             Mass:  800kg
>
>This requires a launch within 1/5th of a light second if it is to acquire
>the target with its own sensors, else it needs a command feed?

  With my understanding of the FF&S rules (which is limited) I had thought
that the command portion was already factored into the Missile design
system. So I assumed that say I was 60 hexes away I could launch the
missile have it burn long enough to set it on the proper course then have
it go silent. 
  Also I thought that the range (60k) of the sensors was the Short range,
not the effective range.

>
>>         Ant Diam: 5m Ant Area: 0.6 m2 Ant Vol: 0.03     Mass:   30kg
>>ECM: EMM    Vol: 1.40 m3  Rad: 0.7 m2                    Mass:  700kg
>>Average Mass:       3.795 tons
>>G Rating:   400 / 3.795 = 105.4
>>Fuel Consumption:  11.25 m3 per hour (this is where we have probs)
>>Fuel Endurance:   2.386 / 11.25 = 0.212
>>G Turns:  105.4 x 0.212 = 22.3 (round to 22)
>>Max Gs per Turn: 22
>
>If I read this correctly, your engine can burn at 105G in a turn but could
>only achieve this for 20%ish of a turn before it completely fuels out? If
>so, consider dropping 3 of the EAPLaC modules, which changes the G rating
>to (400-300) / (3.795-1.8) = which still gives you a 50G rating....

  I was figuring on the average capture range (of the sensors) being about
4-6 hexes, that would be when the missile would use most of its thrust for
changing it's vector and speed and evade on its last turn, this of course
means it's a one shot missile meaning if it misses on that turn it has no
fuel left to try again so it would be programmed to self destruct after
missing. Now If I were to change the engine form 4 x 599 to 1 x 2396 The
rating would as such.

G Rating:   100 / 3.795 = 26.35
Fuel Consumption:  11.25 m3 per hour
Fuel Endurance:   2.386 / 11.25 = 0.212
G Turns:  26.35 x 0.212 = 5.59 (round to 5)
Max Gs per Turn: 5

  which I believe will make it slower and with less endurance
but like I said before this is the area we have the most trouble with the
rules. It seems the bigger the engine the shorter its fuel lasts even
though there is more so we figured it was better to put more smaller ones
of the same mass.

>
>With a 60000km sensor range it's not very stand off. It needs an active
>data feed. Consider better sensors.

  With the right tactics (At least what I have figured) it would be
reasonable one.



>
>Now... if I remember correctly I'll actually calculate the range that the
>missile has if firing at full thrust.
>
>Assuming initially at rest, and 30 min turns, plus fuel for 6 min (360
>seconds burn), this missile flames out (goes inertial) after it has
>travelled:
>
>s = ut + 0.5at^2
>
>U=0
>t=360
>a=105x10 = 1050 ms-2
>
>so s = 0 + 0.5 x 1050 * 360 *360 = 68040 km
>
>with a terminal velocity (assuming all thrust at target) of v = u +at
>=0+1050x360
>= 378,000 ms-1 or 378 km s-1, or ~1.3% lightspeed.

  Wow That's fast, now I'm gonna have to revise my Short Story again.

>
>Which gives the missile 0.5 x 3.9 x (378,000)^2 J = 278,624 MJ..... if it
>collides....

  We have always assumed (Maybe incorrectly) that by the time we develop
Inter Planetary travel with any degree of safety, there would be new armor
that would protect from kinetic damage (Or lessen it). I figured in
Traveller since we have something that negates Inertia it would be
reasonable to assume that it would be used to lower the effectiveness of
Kinetic weapons (Hence the nuke). Because I always thought Inertia is the
primary part of the equation for Kinetic energy.

>
>Personnally, I think it's under ranged and under sensored...
>
>There again, I'm not a FFS1/TNEr at heart.

  Well I ain't too familiar with TNE/FF&S either, me I am a CTr but always
like to try new stuff, and since you can't build missiles in CT rules I
figured I would try this book out. (I still haven't figured out why I
bought it in the first place 5 years ago)

>
>Dom
>

- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 00:52:59 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: re: ST Ship Displacements 

At 12:51 AM 6/8/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net> writes:
>> So what I was wondering, does anyone know the Displacement Value for these
>>Original series ships?
>
>>From (1)
>
>>  Constellation class Heavy Cruiser (Same as the 1701 Enterprise)
>
>Constitution Class XI - 160 to 180 mt
>
>>  Romulan War bird
>
>Romulan Bird of Prey Class VI Cruiser - 60 - 80 mt
>
>>  Klingon D7 Cruiser (Battle cruiser from the Original series)
>
>D7A Paingiver Class VIII Cruiser - 100 to 120 mt
>
>I assume these are MegaTonnes (ie 1,000,000 metric tonne units)
>
>>From (2) 50 metric tonnes = 1 SCU (standard cargo unit) = 6.75m3 =
>1.5m*1.5m*3m
>
>1 mt = 20,000 SCU = 135,000m3
>
>I leave the rest to your calculator... ;-)

  Why are they so Huge? I know they were much bigger then the standard Star
ships for traveller but not that big.
Hmmm



>
>----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------

- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 00:22:00 -0600 (MDT)
From: Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@shell.rt66.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint (mild spoilers)...

 
> >The only thing I will say about the pathetically poor film "event" that
> >is Episode One:
> 
>    Saw the film on Saturday afternoon.  Couldn't disagree more.  It is a
> cautionary tale of what can happen when democracy is allowed to decay and
 
Hmm. It wasn't awful, but I wouldn't assign it anything other than
pulp value. Obviously a large part of the intent of the movie was
marketing. A 9 year old in a principal action role is not
insignificant if you are aware of toy demographics for boys (I work
on the educational fringe of the toy market and talk to a lot of toy
manufacturers). Lucas is a smart cookie.

> >Jar Jar Binks Must Die.
> 
>   Jar Jar is a temp replacement for C-3PO (aka comic relief, aka the lucky
 
He is still annoying as hell :-) When I saw r2d2 I thought, "ah!
That is why he knows where he is going when they crash in the 1st
movie." Then I see c3po should know too since he was made there. And
why doesn't he recognize Lukes last name... but I digress.

> hate it.  The fact that at no point did he actually exist (there was no one
> running around in a Jar Jar suit...all computer) is what I will remember,

Not entirely true. They fabricated jar jar headgear that was worn by
the actor to stand in for the CG jar jar. That way the other actors
had someone to act off of.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 09:21:24 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: How do you join the TML?

At 18:15 07/06/1999 -0700, "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> wrote:

>Look at the end of every digest.  

Not everyone receives the digest version.

None of those who do have been "thoughtful" enough to mail an entire
digest to the list since the changeover.

;-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 00:26:35 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: 

mmckeown67@hotmail.com wrote

> what's the purpose of 
>  the frozen watch on a large starship?

The Vilani crew members get tired of having
to eat preserved food.  When people are
flash frozen in low births they taste nice
& fresh later when you need to eat them.

You don't think that being cryonically
frozen is really all that dangerous do you?
Obviously low births are Vilani technology
designed to ensure a fresh tasting food
supply :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 03:05:18 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: First In Software?

"David J. Golden" wrote:

> >You can get Celeron systems for $350 - less than half.
> >The Celeron 366 chip is ideal right now - it will overclock
> >stably to 550 MHz.  And you can find the processor for
>
>         Really? Is that with or without "heroic" cooling? Check out
> http://www.accsdata.com/drffreeze/Dr%20Ffreeze.htm for somebody with
> _way_ too much time to kill.

Up too late typing!  466 will O/C to 525 no problem.  Some people I
know have it running at 581 with standard cooling.  The 300A will run
stable over 450 (464).

- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco, Inc.

http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 03:15:03 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint (mild spoilers)...

"Harold D. Hale" wrote:

> Steve Daniels writes:
>
> >The only thing I will say about the pathetically poor film "event" that
> >is Episode One:
>
>    Saw the film on Saturday afternoon.  Couldn't disagree more.  It is a
> cautionary tale of what can happen when democracy is allowed to decay and
> men with too much personal ambition are allowed to manipulate events.  The
> parallels between a certain Republic senator and a certain 20th century
> German political leader (they even end up with the same titles...) were not
> lost on me.

And I say its a two hour toy-commercial with a little stuff for the parents.

> >Jar Jar Binks Must Die.
>
>   Jar Jar is a temp replacement for C-3PO (aka comic relief, aka the lucky
> coward) until the second or third movie.  No doubt at some point he will
> rejoin his buddies in the swamps with their funky globe weapons.

Its only comic relief if there is some dramatic tension to be relieved.
I also have to agree with the criticism that he/it is a new Steppin Fetchit.

>
> >I can't believe someone beat me to "www.jarjarbinksmustdie.com".
> >Nothing there yet though.
>
>    Lucas would be happy that you find the character memorable, even if you
> hate it.  The fact that at no point did he actually exist (there was no one
> running around in a Jar Jar suit...all computer) is what I will remember,
> because it was so damn convincing.  Can a new movie version of "On the
> Waterfront" starring John Wayne, Humphrey Bogart, and Marilyn Monroe be far
> behind?

Actually, the actor who did the voice did wear a costume and was running
around. You can see him in the "Making Of" type stuff they show now.  The
Jar Jar face is actually on top of his head, and you can see the actors normal
face fully, but the stuff he was wearing even had the skin shading spots, or
whatever.  What is you is "painted over" the real guy.  Just like Roger Rabbit
painted over the sticks and puppets.

While Lucas can certainly live without my $5, he can sure count on
not getting it.  I'm sitting out from anything Star Wars until Lucas
gives up control.  Which I'm guessing will be about the same time the
copyrights expire sometime around 2100.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco, Inc.

http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 18:00:16 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Vilani Food

Actually according to the CT low berths were originally intended to carry
frozen livestock, so it is quite possible that the Vilani might use them for
food stocks. At least thats what the Solomani probably think.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 18:00:13 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: detecting missiles

Without gravitic focussing for lasers the ranges for these weapons comes
right down. particle accelerators and meson gun ranges dont. Is there a
problem with the way PA ranges are determined in that case. After all surely
a particle beam is more likely to spread than a laser, even a neutral
particle beam, any comments?
Also without gravitic focussing does this mean it may be possible to build
plasma and fusion guns and have some effect in space?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #721
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 8 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 722



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Ship-building
Re: Maximum ship-building output
RE: detecting missiles
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: ST Ship displacements
Imperial TE&O
GT at GenCon
please kiill the OT thread
Re: Dave Nilsen and his plans for Traveller: TNE?
Re: New Site: World Maps
Star Trek vessels
Starship construction and starports
RE: SOME OF US HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET!
TMLers at JavaOne
Re: Star Trek Vessals
The Frozen Watch:  Spare Crew or Stored Provisions?
Re: [Offtopic] Titan Games
Lay off poor Jar-Jar! (was: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...)
Re: New Site: World Maps
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Space combat weaponry (was RE: detecting missiles)
Vilani Frozen Watch
Re: New Site: World Maps
Earth Tech

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 18:00:10 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Ship-building

I seem to remember in Trillion Credit Squadron, I think, that a world could
build starships regardless of its starport class. The implication was that
these were government aka military vessels.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 05:15:45 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output

>Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1999 21:30:06 -0500
>From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
>Subject: Re: Maximum ship-building output
>
>>Method #1 (Most Accurate) -- Calculate the Bilateral Trade Number for every
>>world with which the planet trades, consult the table on p. FT16, and add
>>up all the tonnages. Don't forget to check for trade routes, and raise the
>>minimum traffic to the level specified on p. FT18; this represents
>>transient traffic passing through the system. The full analysis can take
>>quite a lot of time and effort, but if you're doing the work for some other
>>reason (naval budgets, commerce raiding, etc.) it might be worthwhile.
>>
>>Method #2 (Quick and Dirty) -- Add 5 to the WTN and subtract the Distance
>>Modifier from the table on the top of p. FT15, using the distance to the
>>nearest star system, regardless of type. Again, if the world is on a trade
>>route (a pure GM call, in this case), raise the number to the minimum BTN
>>for the route (10 for a Main/Xboat Route, 9 for a Feeder Route, 8 for a
>>Minor Route/Jump-1 Main). Use this number and consult the table on p. FT16
>>to get total trade in dtons/year.
>
><snip>
>
>>[By the way, if anyone tries both methods, I could really use some feedback
>>on how closely they match. I've tried a couple of data points, but not
>>enough to be really comfortable that the quick and dirty method is a good
>>approximation.]
>
>I used a spreadsheet I have that calculates BTN for all planets in the SM 
>against any one planet (Old early MT data, not BtC).  I plugged it in to 
>calculate the data for a couple of worlds, and used the average of all of 
>the amounts (2.5, 7.5, 25, 75, etc.) on the Dtons table in FT p16.  This 
>spreadsheet is just for rough calculations, as it does not calculate 
>distances along trade routes, but straightline distances.
>The following are my results for the above two calculations (all 
>calculations are in Dtons/Year):
>
>                          Method 1                               Method 2
>                    Trade           Shipyard 
>Cap.          Trade          Shipyard Cap.
>Glisten         61,051,098            244,204          25,000,000 
>100,000
>Regina           6,898,295             27,593           2,500,000 
>10,000
>Jewell          12,506,290             50,025           7,500,000 
>30,000
>Rhylanor        66,762,148            267,049          25,000,000 
>100,000
>Efate           16,813,668             67,255           7,500,000 
>30,000
>Mora           145,810,625            583,243          75,000,000 
>300,000
>
>Gram            18,616,713             74,467           7,500,000 
>30,000
>Mire            44,623,523            178,494          25,000,000 
>100,000
>
>
>Jimmy Simpson				nimrodd@fastlane.net
>1735 Ridgeview Drive
>Arlington, TX 76012-1947

So if one doubled the numbers in the quick and dirty method, they would
match the actual +/- 20%? Outstanding -- thank you, very much.

Regards,

Chris

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 12:45:07 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: RE: detecting missiles

At 18:00 08/06/1999 +0800, "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com> wrote:
>Without gravitic focussing for lasers the ranges for these weapons comes
>right down. particle accelerators and meson gun ranges dont. Is there a
>problem with the way PA ranges are determined in that case. After all surely
>a particle beam is more likely to spread than a laser, even a neutral
>particle beam, any comments?

Removing gravitic focussing does not help at TL13 and up when space combat
lasers are all X-ray. At this point the range is 100,000km per metre diameter
of the mirror. You don't really need to have gravitic focussing of X-ray
lasers unless either:
	a) you expect your ship's troops to act as point defense.
or	b) you want to stop gas giant refuelling with lasers on the homeworld.

Protons and Bob's Mesons have very shortwavelengths if you accelerate them
enough, plus spinal mounts can have focussing diameters in the tens of metres,
so the range for such weapons is going to be greater than you can target
(ie several light seconds.)

>Also without gravitic focussing does this mean it may be possible to build
>plasma and fusion guns and have some effect in space?

At best, only for TL12 and below and then fusion guns aren't available.

The problem with fusion guns is that the beam is too slow to hit a ship
that can pull several G at any useful range. This is the same problem
as unguided projectile weapons (such as rail guns).

If you accelerate the plasma fast enough to hit (ie >10%c, preferably
nearer 90%c) then the resulting weapons looks just like a particle
accelerator.

Removing the gravitic focussing might just mean that TL9-12 designs
start using more particle accelerators.

Also the point defence lasers become real point defence, with ranges
down to 10,000km max.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 07:53:01 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

>I can tell you exactly what Lucas was thinking.
>
>My son's favorite character: Jar-Jar Binks
>My son's favorite race: Gungans
>My son's favorite scene: Gungans on DINOSAURS! (He practically screamed this
>in the theater).
>
>For my son's pleasure, I happily put up with Jar Jar. I consider TPM his
>Star Wars, where the orginal three are mine. I couldn't be happier.
>
>And I loved the movie.
>
>Andy
>

Point taken.  I disliked the Gungans but the scene where the ewoks get
slaughtered..that more than made up for the rest.
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 05:12:36 PDT
From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: ST Ship displacements

I believe that the ships are so large because of the crew and logistical 
requirements the enterprise from the TOS had a crew of 430 and could carry 
900 passengers...this from trekrpg.net a site associated with the new LUG 
trek games...back on topic :) do vargr like A1 sauce on their groat meat 
<WG>

Mike


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:29:52 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Imperial TE&O

Does anyone have any ideas as to what the squadron sizes from Imperial 
Squadrons are?  There are my best guesses:

Battle:
2xDreadnought
6xCruiser
24xDestroyer

Cruiser:
6xCruiser
18xDestroyer

The rest are unknown, any help would be apreahated.
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 06:18:31 PDT
From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: GT at GenCon

does anyone know if there are any GT events at GenCon...My pathetic non Java 
browser wont open up the Anduin offical site...but I'm planning on going...

TIA
Mike


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:19:45 -0500 
From: Steve Lieb <steve@necadon.com>
Subject: please kiill the OT thread

> Well, to the original point, the iMac was much less than twice
> the $750-$800 cost the original poster quoted.
> 
> Imac _list_ $1195. Your bargain Celeron is running at 80% of the cost
> of
> an iMac, for really crappy components. This actually isn't a Apples vs
> Wintels picture, either.
	[[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  could we please move this discussion
to private emails?  the stupid "my system is better/cheaper/faster than
yours" argument is less like a debate and more like religion.  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:42:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Dave Nilsen and his plans for Traveller: TNE?

On 06/07/99 12:16:31 Mark wrote:
>
>Hi,
>
>Having not followed the progress of Traveller the last couple of years 
>(T:TNE was the last rules version that I bought)I was wondering if Dave had 
>ever described to anyone what his long term plans were for the T:TNE 
>universe? Did he ever publish anything similar to the Designers notes for MT 
>that were published in MTJ no4 (ie the background of the sparklers)
>
>For example:
>What was behind the Black Curtain? (Is that its correct name?!?)
>How did he view the RC developing in the games timeline?

Mark,
	You'd probably have better luck asking these questions over on the mailing list devoted to 
TNE.  Send an email to:
	tne-rces-subscribe@silent-tower.org

As a preview, the Black Curtain is the border of a Virus-ruled empire in which billions of human 
slaves toil under hellish conditions to serve their electronic masters.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
co-author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 08:52:07 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: New Site: World Maps

> Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1999 16:44:03 -0400
> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: Re: New Site: World Maps
> 
> "Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> > >Worlds of the Spinward Marches
> > >http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Worlds.html
> >
> > Bravo!!
> >
> > Excellent job here, these could be printed out and used as great handouts
> > or as the basis of a pilot's guide.
> 
> Second that!  Those are phenomenal!
> 
> Perhaps one day, the entier Spinward Marches will be available on
> the web.  :-)

I hate to say this, but every time I try to go look at the site, both 
yesterday and today, I couldn't find anything except a message saying 
that the page was under construction, and the standard disclaimers 
and copyright info.  No world data.  :(  It's a bummer.

Am I missing something?  Thanks in advance for any help I can receive 
on clarifying this issue.  From all reports, the site sounds very 
cool, and I'm looking forward to checking it out.

Keep On Travellin',
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 09:53:23 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Star Trek vessels

Joe Kirby writes:
<snipped>
"So what I was wondering, does anyone know the Displacement 
Value for these Original series ships?
  Constellation class Heavy Cruiser (Same as the 1701 Enterprise)
  Romulan War bird
  Klingon D7 Cruiser (Battle cruiser from the Original series)"
<snipped>

Dom Mooney responds:
"Constitution Class XI - 160 to 180 mt
Romulan Bird of Prey Class VI Cruiser - 60 - 80 mt
D7A Paingiver Class VIII Cruiser - 100 to 120 mt
I assume these are MegaTonnes (ie 1,000,000 metric tonne units)"

Joe Kirby reresponds:
"Why are they so Huge? I know they were much bigger then the 
standard Star ships for traveller but not that big.
Hmmm"

	I don't have access to my FASA Starship Recognition 
	Manuals right now, but IIRC they are not quite that huge.
	The Constitution Class cruisers were closer to 160,000
	to 180,000 tons, depending on which Mk., again IIRC.
	I will try to remember to check the numbers tonight and
	post them tomorrow. By the way, I've run a FASA ST TRPG 
	campaign and it's a lot of fun (just don't expect 'hard' 
	SF and take the 'Trek' approach to science!)

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 10:05:51 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Starship construction and starports

Mark Fletcher writes:
"My interpretation of Starports was as follows
Class A: Can build starships, jump drives and spaceships
Class B: Can build starships. Cannot build Jump drives. 
Can build Space craft
Class C: Cannot build starships. Cannot build Jump drives. 
Can build Space craft

The definitions ive assummed for starships and spacecraft are:
spacecraft: any vessel able to travel space without FTL
starship: any vesself able to travel space with FTL

Is this a fair interpretation of the rules?"

	Could be, but which rules? The only rules that I've ever
	used were CT, and I seem to recall that
Class A: Can build starships or 'non-starships'
Class B: Can build 'non-starships' but not starships
Class C: Cannot build space ships
	This is the way that I have always run things, though
	any planet with sufficient TL could, at least in theory,
	build any ship given enough time and money.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 09:14:31 -0500 
From: "Cravens, Carl" <carl.cravens@lsil.com>
Subject: RE: SOME OF US HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET!

>Sorry for shouting, but I had to get your attention. *Please*, some
>of us haven't been able to get to see the new Star Wars yet, and it's
>getting difficult to avoid the spoilers. I don't usually even look at
>message titles, because my mailer automatically pops up the next one
>whenever I delete the current ...

The "spoilers" you have seen are all jokes... none of the items mentioned
(Boba Fett, grav ball, Yoda's death and resurrection, Jar-Jar's death, etc)
are in the movie.  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 10:27:59 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: TMLers at JavaOne

Just curious,

Any other TMLers going to San Fran for JavaOne? If so, anyone want to meet up?

- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 07:36:26 PDT
From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Star Trek Vessals

"(just don't expect 'hard'
                       SF and take the 'Trek' approach to science!)"

WHAT? You can invent a new atomic particle each game session that explains 
what's ahappening to the ship? :)

Mike


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 09:56:11 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: The Frozen Watch:  Spare Crew or Stored Provisions?

Peter Newman wrote:
> 
> mmckeown67@hotmail.com wrote
> 
> > what's the purpose of
> >  the frozen watch on a large starship?
> 
> The Vilani crew members get tired of having
> to eat preserved food.  When people are
> flash frozen in low births they taste nice
> & fresh later when you need to eat them.
> 
> You don't think that being cryonically
> frozen is really all that dangerous do you?
> Obviously low births are Vilani technology
> designed to ensure a fresh tasting food
> supply :)

<tongue-in-cheek>

Actually, low berths are a Solomani technology, _adapted_ by the Vilani
for food storage.  It wasn't until the Vilani encountered Terran
microorganisms that preventing food spoilage became an issue.  (This was
most recently discussed, in gruesome detail, in late October 1998.)

</tongue-in-cheek>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 09:10:28 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: [Offtopic] Titan Games

.
>Wish I could say the same. The only thing holding mine together is the duck
>tape. Needless to say, this book (esp. the Cthulhu/Elric parts) has been
>very well used.

  "duck tape"? Does the SPCA know about this?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:10:04 -0400
From: "johannes" <johannes@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! (was: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Monday, June 07, 1999 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...


> The only thing I will say about the pathetically poor film "event" that
> is Episode One:
>
> Jar Jar Binks Must Die.
>
> I can't believe someone beat me to "www.jarjarbinksmustdie.com".
> Nothing there yet though.
>
> Bloo
>

You were expecting maybe Gabby Hayes?  The purpose of a comical sidekick is
to emphasis the star's heroic behavior by his UN-heroic behavior (but you
knew that, right?).  This role Jar-jar fulfills admirably.  So what's the
problem?

John

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 12:56:34 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: New Site: World Maps

> I hate to say this, but every time I try to go look at the site, 
> both yesterday and today, I couldn't find anything except a 
> message saying that the page was under construction, 
> and the standard disclaimers and copyright info.  No 
> world data.  :(  It's a bummer.


The bad news:
I've removed the site until I resolve some copyright issues.
Unfortunately, the Regina map will not be returning... and
the fate of the Risek and Echiste maps are still up in the
air.  Rob Prior, who created most of the maps on the site,
has been very kind about the entire situation and I owe him
a huge debt of gratitude.

The good news:
The site should be back in a few days... and there may
be several new maps... including Craw and Aramanx
if all goes as planned.  And, for the Campaign 
Cartographer users on the list,  many of the maps will 
be available in CC2 format.  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 07:40:49 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

"Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com> wrote:
>> I didn't want to mention that part..MAJOR spoiler, you know?  :)
>> What irked me was the return of the Ewoks.

Folks, either this is a joke to wind up those of us who haven't seen it
because we're outside the US, or you're forgetting the

S
P
O
I
L
E
R

warnings that the original post asked a few weeks ago...

If the former, I've fallen for it hook line and sinker. :-)

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:10:37 -0700
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Space combat weaponry (was RE: detecting missiles)

>Without gravitic focussing for lasers the ranges for these weapons comes
>right down. particle accelerators and meson gun ranges dont. Is there a
>problem with the way PA ranges are determined in that case. After all surely
>a particle beam is more likely to spread than a laser, even a neutral
>particle beam, any comments?
>Also without gravitic focussing does this mean it may be possible to build
>plasma and fusion guns and have some effect in space?

As Phil pointed out, gravitic focussing is not necessary for X-ray lasers.
We can already make 1-shot X-ray lasers using longitudinal plasmas, and I
think that real soon now we'll be able to get to the soft X-ray regime
using excimer lasers.

Particle accelerators should be viable weapons. Talking to a friend that
works at SLAC building klystrons, they are trying to build said devices in
the 90 GHz range (SLAC uses 16 GHz, if I remember correctly). Once we can
reliably build such klystrons (and it's a matter of engineering -- we
already have the math worked out) then one can generate the same energies
that SLAC does in 2 miles using only 10 feet of tunnel.

Side note: That's one of the problems with Traveller tech level
advancement; it tends to be linear, whereas real life is exponential.

However, a problem with particle accelerators is that, for space combat,
you want neutral ions that remain undeflected by magnetic fields or other
electromagnetic phenomena. Right now, to make neutral ions one first
accelerates H- ions and then neutralizes them in a chamber of dilute gas to
strip away electrons. No matter how well collimated the initial H- beam is,
the neutralization process results in an angular divergence of ~1
microradian. For 500MeV protons, at 10,000 km range you would have a 10
meter spot size. With higher momentum particles, there would be less
transverse deflection as per normal (relativistic) vector addition. Still,
the problem remains.

Interestingly enough, the best way to minimize angular divergence is to use
kinetic projectiles. For example, a means to send a spacecraft to, say,
Alpha Centauri uses a thrust stream (similiar to the light sail concept in
Robert L. Forward's book _Rocheworld_) comprised of intelligent,
self-guiding nanoparticles ("mesoparticles"). See
http://www.foresight.org/Conferences/MNT05/Papers/Bishop/

At a velocity of 5 km/sec, a steel projectile has enough kinetic energy to
vaporize itself, so the line between energy weapon and projectile weapon
begins to blur. Such a weapon, if fired in an atmosphere, would exhibit the
bright streaking seen in meteorites.

Meson guns have problems, unfortunately. It's a neat concept, but
fundamentally, one cannot predict the half-life of an individual particle.
Accelerating them means simply that the entire ensemble is translated via
Lorentz transform in time (ie decays a little later due to relativistic
time dilation), but it is still a statistical spread (mesons are bosons, so
they use Bose-Einstein statistics). For short distances, say, medical use
of pions in cancer, this is not a problem, but for long space combat
ranges, it is. You can't get around the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.
Also, mesons require particle accelerators in their production, so a meson
weapon is an order of magnitude less efficient than a plain particle
accelerator.

As Phil also pointed out, plasma/fusion weapons in space are more like
particle accelerators. Once you get into relativistic velocities (and you
should, for space combat over any decent range) the kinetic energy of a
particle is much larger than its rest mass. An electron has a rest mass of
0.51 MeV, but can get accelerated up to 1 GeV or so. Plasmas are the
equivalent of a two-fluid problem: stationary heavy ions and motile
electrons.  Most plasmas can be approximated by the collisionless model,
because the time scale of interaction for ions vs. electrons is different.
One can do some neat tricks with poloidal magnetic fields and lasers, but
it is still problematic.

So, to sum this up, you are back to four realistic weapons: kinetic, laser,
particle accelerators, and missiles. The line between missiles and kinetic
weapons may blur with brilliant pebble technology; use a detonation nuke or
large nuclear warhead in the missile and it should be sufficiently clear.
The "energy" weapons will probably be short ranged compared to the others.

As a caveat, I prefer playing Traveller as realistic as possible:
http://hapkido.ucdavis.edu/Traveller/

- --Adam

acgetchell@ucdavis.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 09:37:11 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Vilani Frozen Watch

> From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
 
> You don't think that being cryonically
> frozen is really all that dangerous do you?
> Obviously low births are Vilani technology
> designed to ensure a fresh tasting food
> supply :)

That would explain why the early Vilani low berths are big enough to
accommodate a K'Kree .... [ducking back into hatch, dogging same,
preparing for emergency take off]

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:33:12 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: New Site: World Maps

>> >Worlds of the Spinward Marches
>> >http://www.perkworks.com/traveller/Worlds.html
>>
>> Bravo!!
>>
>> Excellent job here, these could be printed out and used as great handouts
>> or as the basis of a pilot's guide.

When I go there I get a mostly empty page that starts with "This page is
currently under reconstruction.".
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 13:59:35 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Earth Tech

The Computer Technology thread has pointed out some interesting
things.

Our computer technology, and perhaps several other technologies
at the present day have exceeded the expectations of Traveller Tech
level. We've gone nowhere, AFAIK, in the field of anti-gravity.

Note the major area of research the Solomani have canonically lagged
behind in: Gravitics tech.

Can you imagine a technology more crucial to a race's conquest of
space? You can't even start on jump drive until you live beyond the
100D limit. The difference between an orbital society based on 
thrust and one based on gravitics will be astonishing. No wonder, for
all our computer and biotech accomplishments, the Ziru Sirka 
thought of us as primitive.

The Ziru Sirka is a space-based empire. Their view of an alien culture's
tech will be most highly colored by that culture's space flight 
accomplishments. 

The Solomani, once they took over the Ziru Sirka, probably liked the myth
of their low-tech grandparents defeating the high-tech Vilani - a "real
human" wins because he is a "real human", not because of fancier
gadgets, or so the myth will go - thus the Ziru Sirka view of a low-tech
Earth persists, even in histories re-written by the Solomani conquerors.

As long as Earth has tech advancement holes where gravitics and jump 
drive are, we will be considered in the TL8 range overall, at least by
Traveller standards. Anything better we pull off would be discounted as
"cunning gadgets" by any race that did have gravitics and jump drive,
at least if that race were as space-oriented as the Vilani.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #722
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 8 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 723



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: How do you join the TML?
re: ST Ship Displacements 
re: Reference to PDL's
Press Release from Jokelyn, Limon/Reft Sector
Re: GT at GenCon
[OT]Re: please kiill the OT thread
[OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]
ST and hard SF
Re:  Space combat weaponry 
Space combat weaponry (was RE: detecting missiles)
Wingspan of starships
TML FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Notice
Re: Star Trek vessels
RE: SOME OF US HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET!
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Star Trek vessels
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: [OT] Re: First In Software?
Newts (was re: A plea for cinematic restraint
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 18:30:58 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: How do you join the TML?

Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
>Not everyone receives the digest version.
>
>None of those who do have been "thoughtful" enough to mail an entire
>digest to the list since the changeover.
>
>;-)

I've got about 1500 digests here at the moment. How many do you want me to
send with my next post?

Dom ;-)


- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 18:28:43 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: ST Ship Displacements 

Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net> writes:

>  Why are they so Huge? I know they were much bigger then the standard Star
>ships for traveller but not that big.
>Hmmm

That's Tonnes MASS, not Tonnes VOLUME/DISPLACEMENT.

You need to multiply the mt value by 135000m3 to convert to cubic metres,
then divide by 13.5 to get Traveller dt -

so 100 mt becomes 13500000 m3 = 1 million dt... hmm

if mt are metric tonnes then the ships are way too small. I think that the
SCU conversion figures are wrong and it messes the whole thing up. Someone
more FFS orientated than me could give an average mass per dt. Someone did
a while back but I've lost the post I did on Fusion drives in HG...

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 19:02:35 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Reference to PDL's

Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net> writes:
>>This requires a launch within 1/5th of a light second if it is to acquire
>>the target with its own sensors, else it needs a command feed?
>
>  With my understanding of the FF&S rules (which is limited) I had thought
>that the command portion was already factored into the Missile design
>system. So I assumed that say I was 60 hexes away I could launch the
>missile have it burn long enough to set it on the proper course then have
>it go silent.

Unsure whether this is the case....

1 hex  = 1/10 light second  = 30,000km
60 hexes = 6 light seconds = 1,800,000 km

1 hex/turn = 60,000 km /hr = 30,000 km/turn

From below, max vel = 378 kps = 1,360,000 km / hr = 680,400 km / turn or
22.68 hexes/turn (2.3 light seconds)

I would personnally go for a single turn burn as otherwise you'll need to
manuever to keep the target in sight.

>  Also I thought that the range (60k) of the sensors was the Short range,
>not the effective range.

Looking at Brilliant lances, I think you're correct, so sensor range is 4
or 8 times better...

>>If I read this correctly, your engine can burn at 105G in a turn but could
>>only achieve this for 20%ish of a turn before it completely fuels out? If
>>so, consider dropping 3 of the EAPLaC modules, which changes the G rating
>>to (400-300) / (3.795-1.8) = which still gives you a 50G rating....

>G Rating:   100 / 3.795 = 26.35
>Fuel Consumption:  11.25 m3 per hour
>Fuel Endurance:   2.386 / 11.25 = 0.212
>G Turns:  26.35 x 0.212 = 5.59 (round to 5)
>Max Gs per Turn: 5

>  which I believe will make it slower and with less endurance
>but like I said before this is the area we have the most trouble with the
>rules. It seems the bigger the engine the shorter its fuel lasts even
>though there is more so we figured it was better to put more smaller ones
>of the same mass.

If you assume a constant fuel amount, you're correct. Smaller engines burn
less fuel in the same time. If this occurs, you need less fuel (or you have
higher endurance). If you have less fuel the mass is reduced. The small
engine also cuts engine mass by 75%. This saving translates to a higher
acceleration than the original, large mass. If you quarter the thrust, you
only need 1/4 the fuel. If that fuel is a significant proportion of the
mass, along with the reduced engine size you may find the missile is faster!

>>With a 60000km sensor range it's not very stand off. It needs an active
>>data feed. Consider better sensors.
>
>  With the right tactics (At least what I have figured) it would be
>reasonable one.

Agreed with respect to the sensors being okay. The fuel endurance is an issue.

>>= 378,000 ms-1 or 378 km s-1, or ~1.3% lightspeed.
>
>  Wow That's fast, now I'm gonna have to revise my Short Story again.

This is what makes contact/KKM missiles so nasty if they hit.

>  We have always assumed (Maybe incorrectly) that by the time we develop
>Inter Planetary travel with any degree of safety, there would be new armor
>that would protect from kinetic damage (Or lessen it). I figured in
>Traveller since we have something that negates Inertia it would be
>reasonable to assume that it would be used to lower the effectiveness of
>Kinetic weapons (Hence the nuke). Because I always thought Inertia is the
>primary part of the equation for Kinetic energy.

Bonded Coherent Superdense is 20 times stronger than steel of the same
thickness. The kinetic energy still has to go somewhere, and that's into
the structure.  The equation for KE is 0.5 x mass x Velocity^2. I don't
think Traveller has anything which can project inertia negation.

>  Well I ain't too familiar with TNE/FF&S either, me I am a CTr but always
>like to try new stuff, and since you can't build missiles in CT rules I
>figured I would try this book out. (I still haven't figured out why I
>bought it in the first place 5 years ago)

You can with Mayday 1980, or the special missiles supplement in the JTAS
with the Vargr on the front.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 14:01:45 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Press Release from Jokelyn, Limon/Reft Sector

Dateline: Jokelyn, Limon/Reft Sector

The courier vessel RSN _Outreach_ arrived in the Jokelyn system today, 
bearing reports from the government of Sansterre (Old Islands/Reft Sector) 
that the entire Islands Cluster had inexplicably moved to a war footing. 
Due to the extreme isolation of the Islands Cluster from the Imperium,
no independent confirmation of the situation is available at this time.

There was little detailed information presented to the media, but 
representatives of the Sansterrean government were said to be meeting
with the Imperial Governor in charge of the Jokelyn outpost. Other 
Sansterrean diplomats were seen boarding an Imperiallines charter
vessel, said to be bound for the Imperial Navy Base at Rampart
(Limon/Reft Sector) and points deeper within the Imperium. There are
also reports, though unconfirmed, that representatives of at least two
major StarMerc organizations were travelling with the Sansterrean party. 

A press release from a Sansterrean spokesophont follows:
- --------------------------------
"The free peoples of Sansterre have been deeply disturbed by the 
current troubles in the Islands Cluster. Once upon a time, we were
all peaceful worlds, seperated by distance but bound together by
our common roots. Our time of war came with the introduction of
the Jump Drive, but the Imperium aided us in redressing the balance
and bringing peace to the cluster, a peace that has been long and
fruitful. 

Now, there is again the rattlings of sabers, the passage of warships.
It is apparent that, once more, we must ask the aid of our peace-loving
neighbors, the Third Imperium, in bringing a just peace to the spacelanes
of the Cluster. Let our history bring us closer, and mutual action make
us allies in this chaotic time.

The government of Sansterre hereby volunteers itself to the cause of 
peace in the Islands Cluster. With the technological and material aid
of the mighty Imperium, we know that the Sansterrean Fleet can
seperate the belligerent and demilitarize the militant. It will be a long,
hard struggle, but with fortitude and cooperation we will see the end of
war and a just peace in the Cluster, for all our children and our
childrens' children.

Thor Heyrden
Ambassador of Her Majesty's Government
Sansterre
- -----------------------------


Walt Smith
(This involves the Islands Cluster campaign we're playing by email. 
If Sansterre went to all the trouble of setting up an extra-Islands 
courier run, they are certainly going to try and get some benefits
back from it. <WEG>)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 13:01:49 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: GT at GenCon

Yes, but i am not sure what they will be.  there was an event mentioned here a
few days ago.


Michael McKeown wrote:

> does anyone know if there are any GT events at GenCon...My pathetic non Java
> browser wont open up the Anduin offical site...but I'm planning on going...
>
> TIA
> Mike
>
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 14:49:07 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: [OT]Re: please kiill the OT thread

Steve Lieb wrote:

>         [[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  could we please move this discussion
> to private emails?  the stupid "my system is better/cheaper/faster than
> yours" argument is less like a debate and more like religion.

It wasn't a really a debate but a sharing of information to find
the cheapest deal.

The [OT] in the subject lines is there so that such posts can be filtered
out.

Sorry if we've caused you trouble.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco, Inc.

http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 15:09:52 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]

johannes wrote:

> You were expecting maybe Gabby Hayes?  The purpose of a comical sidekick is
> to emphasis the star's heroic behavior by his UN-heroic behavior (but you
> knew that, right?).  This role Jar-jar fulfills admirably.  So what's the
> problem?

I pity you the hell that you're in that JJB actually provides some relief,
comic
or otherwise.

I fully understand the traditional role of comic relief and sidekicks.
But there was zippo dramatic tension that needed relieving and
the use of a what many, including myself, to be a modern Steppin
Fetchit racial stereotype, and/or, poorly realized non-realistic character
(seriously, compare this buffoon to Chewbacca or C3P0 - they don't
shake their lips or behave like Keystone Cops).

Look at the fiirst portion of Episode 4:
A starhip is boarded and humans with faces are being killed quickly
by almost unstoppable faceless, cold stormtroopers.
A princess is kidnapped.
Droids escape, are captured then rescued.
Tuskan raiders knock Luke silly.
Solo shoots Greedo down in cold blood without provocation (original film).
In a blur of motion and power, OB1 takes off a guy's arm!
No pratfalls, double takes, or lip-shaking.
The speaking of non-humans is either subtitled or untranslated.

Conclusion: This film is to be taken seriously!

Episode 1:
JJB talks funny.  - whether you agree with the racial stereotype criticisms
or not, its pigeon English (so that the kiddies won't have to read the
subtitles or have to use their brains to figure out what he said from context,
as is required of Chewbacca's growlings).  Same thing for the Asian
accented Trade Federation representatives.
JJB eats a chicken like thing and almost gets in a fight.
JJB gets his lips numbed.
JJB has difficult understanding reality ("Yousa dinkin' dat yousa people gonna
diieeee?")

Conclusion:  This is light-hearted fare, intended to sell toys to kids.
- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco, Inc.

http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 15:16:43 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: ST and hard SF

Michael McKeown writes:
"WHAT? You can invent a new atomic particle each game session 
that explains what's ahappening to the ship? :)"

	GM looking flustered at player's question: "Um... the
	science officer says, um, says, um, there are Toroids,
	I mean Torrons emmanating from the probe! That's what's 
	causing the transporters to malfunction. Yeah."

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:40:34 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Re:  Space combat weaponry 

> From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>

> Meson guns have problems, unfortunately. It's a neat concept, but
> fundamentally, one cannot predict the half-life of an individual particle.
> Accelerating them means simply that the entire ensemble is translated via
> Lorentz transform in time (ie decays a little later due to relativistic
> time dilation), but it is still a statistical spread (mesons are bosons, so
> they use Bose-Einstein statistics). For short distances, say, medical use

. Hmmmm... this is interesting. Of course you can't predict the 
half-life of an *individual* particle, but I always assumed that you 
used millions of them and a Law of Large Numbers / Central Limit 
Theorem was at work. You seem to imply that's not the case. Do I get 
it right?
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 13:01:28 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Space combat weaponry (was RE: detecting missiles)

>Meson guns have problems, unfortunately. It's a neat concept, but
>fundamentally, one cannot predict the half-life of an individual particle.
>Accelerating them means simply that the entire ensemble is translated via
>Lorentz transform in time (ie decays a little later due to relativistic
>time dilation), but it is still a statistical spread

My take has always been that an aspect of neuclear damper technology
is a new understanding of the process that lead to decay the discovery
that the process is not truly randomn.  The allows the generation
of particle which _will_ decay in a predetermined time.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 16:20:40 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Wingspan of starships

I once read a gearhead 'rant' about the width versus height
of a streamlined ship -- does anyone know where I read it
(I don't) or have any ideas about wingspan & mass & so on...
Obviously you don't really need wings to land, but I recall
for instance that the space shuttle's wings put it into a
controlled fall, rather than a glide - I've watched it land
though, so that doesn't seem correct to me.



- -- 
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:25:03 +0100
From: "Stuart C. Squibb" <scs@vectis.demon.co.uk>
Subject: TML FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Notice

Just a reminder that the TML FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) can be found
at:

http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller/faq/tml-faq.html

or by email from:

mailto:robot@vectis.demon.co.uk?subject=send%20tmlfaq-html

for the HTML version

or

mailto:robot@vectis.demon.co.uk?subject=send%20tmlfaq-text

for the text version.

There are also (slightly out-of-date) versions available from the MPGN ftp
server:

ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/tmlfaq-html.zip (HTML)

ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/Gaming/Traveller/tmlfaq-text.zip (Text)

For those of you new to the list, it's worth getting a copy of the FAQ
simply for the glossary, which reveals the meanings of such esoteric
abbreviations as AAB, IMTU, ObTrav and FLGS.

The main changes this month are:

Changed subscribe/unsubscribe instructions in line with the new list
address.

Added links to various software by Rob Prior and Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
(info supplied by Dom Mooney).

Added link to DGP sector data held at Brian Johnson's site.

A couple of new glossary entries.

As always, comments, corrections and material to fill the gaps welcome.

Stuart.
- ----
Stuart Squibb
Newport, Isle of Wight, England
scs@vectis.demon.co.uk
TML-FAQ: http://www.vectis.demon.co.uk/traveller/faq/tml-faq.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:26:53 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Star Trek vessels

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
> Dom Mooney responds:
> "Constitution Class XI - 160 to 180 mt
> Romulan Bird of Prey Class VI Cruiser - 60 - 80 mt
> D7A Paingiver Class VIII Cruiser - 100 to 120 mt
> I assume these are MegaTonnes (ie 1,000,000 metric tonne units)"

I the original Star Fleet Technical Manual, the Constitution Class is listed
as: "Deadweight Tonnage-Metric........190,000"


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 16:52:04 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: RE: SOME OF US HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET!

At 09:14 AM 6/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Sorry for shouting, but I had to get your attention. *Please*, some
>>of us haven't been able to get to see the new Star Wars yet, and it's
>>getting difficult to avoid the spoilers. I don't usually even look at
>>message titles, because my mailer automatically pops up the next one
>>whenever I delete the current ...
>
>The "spoilers" you have seen are all jokes... none of the items mentioned
>(Boba Fett, grav ball, Yoda's death and resurrection, Jar-Jar's death, etc)
>are in the movie.  


<Bob Mckenzie voice>:  Oh beauty eh, now you went and blew it.  Like, take
of, hoser!  :)
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 16:55:44 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

>If the former, I've fallen for it hook line and sinker. :-)
>
>Dom


Heheh...You wouldn't hiut a man with glasses on, would you?  :)))
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 17:00:45 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]

>JJB has difficult understanding reality ("Yousa dinkin' dat yousa people gonna
>diieeee?")

Why Bloo, why?  Why did you quote it?!  I still have nightmares about those
words...:)
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:51:29 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

Concerning Spoilers for Star Wars, Dom said:

>If the former, I've fallen for it hook line and sinker. :-)


Here, let me cut that hook out from your mouth ;)

ObTrav: I'm surprised that nobody has drawn the obvious parallels between
the Newts of Traveller and the Gungan of Star Wars. Jar Jar is the new
template upon which I will build Newt characters.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:05:04 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Star Trek vessels

>----- Original Message -----
>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>> Dom Mooney responds:
>> "Constitution Class XI - 160 to 180 mt
>> Romulan Bird of Prey Class VI Cruiser - 60 - 80 mt
>> D7A Paingiver Class VIII Cruiser - 100 to 120 mt
>> I assume these are MegaTonnes (ie 1,000,000 metric tonne units)"
>
>I the original Star Fleet Technical Manual, the Constitution Class is listed
>as: "Deadweight Tonnage-Metric........190,000"
>

Although the specific comparison is different, an age-old repeated error is
being made here.

"Deadweight Tonnage-Metric" refers to *mass*

I'm not sure what Dom Mooney's numbers refer to, but the "tonnage" in
Traveller has always refered to Tons of Displaced Hydrogen.

Tonnage of (wet) Naval vessels refers to tons of displaced water.

The best comparison would be volume.  Multiply "tonnage" of Traveller
vessels by 13.5 to get volume in m^3.

To get Star Trek vessel volume you'd need to either convert the dimensions
in meters to cubic meters (multiply height times depth times width - of the
"solid" components, not the overall structure!), or convert whatever
"displacement" figure they use to cubic meters.

Not being familiar with the technical info on ST ships, I'll leave it at
that.

I do not, however, think that the Constitution Class ships are 160 million
Traveller tons.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 17:08:25 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

At 04:51 PM 6/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Concerning Spoilers for Star Wars, Dom said:
>
>>If the former, I've fallen for it hook line and sinker. :-)
>
>
>Here, let me cut that hook out from your mouth ;)
>
>ObTrav: I'm surprised that nobody has drawn the obvious parallels between
>the Newts of Traveller and the Gungan of Star Wars. Jar Jar is the new
>template upon which I will build Newt characters.

And to think, I kind of pictured him as Snarf come to life...


Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:14:09 -0400
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: First In Software?

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 5:24 AM
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: First In Software?
>"David J. Golden" wrote:
>
>> >You can get Celeron systems for $350 - less than half.
>> >The Celeron 366 chip is ideal right now - it will overclock
>> >stably to 550 MHz.  And you can find the processor for
>>
>>         Really? Is that with or without "heroic" cooling? Check out
>> http://www.accsdata.com/drffreeze/Dr%20Ffreeze.htm for somebody with
>> _way_ too much time to kill.
>
>Up too late typing!  466 will O/C to 525 no problem.  Some people I
>know have it running at 581 with standard cooling.  The 300A will run
>stable over 450 (464).
>Bloo


Hmmm, I'm running an Alpha 21164 LX at 600 Mhz without over cooling.  Wonder
what it would do with a big ol' CPU fan and a cooling system?

Thom

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:19:06 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Newts (was re: A plea for cinematic restraint

Chris Seamans wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
ObTrav: I'm surprised that nobody has drawn the obvious parallels between
the Newts of Traveller and the Gungan of Star Wars. Jar Jar is the new
template upon which I will build Newt characters.
>>>>>>>>>>
That's just bizarre enough to work. Clumsy, gangly and (apparently) 
foolish are just the qualities I wasn't seeing in Bwaps, maybe they'd 
be more interesting with that difference. How could a Newt act like
Jar Jar, and still be stereotyped as a dependable, detail-obsessed
clerical worker?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:26:13 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

In a message dated 6/8/99 4:56:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, semo@pil.net 
writes:

<< 
 ObTrav: I'm surprised that nobody has drawn the obvious parallels between
 the Newts of Traveller and the Gungan of Star Wars. Jar Jar is the new
 template upon which I will build Newt characters.
  >>

	Or what about Palpatine as Cleon?  Corusant as Sylea (or is that 
Trantor?)

				Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 14:32:30 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]

I can't believe that I'm actually jumping in on this thread...  :(

I don't think that JarJar speaking in pidgin English (or translated from
Galactic or whatever you choose to believe) is that far off the mark.  I've
done a bit of travelling - just on this world :), but allow me to
extrapolate - and I've yet to see Multilanguage conversations as the norm.
Meaning, people who are communicating to each other using different
languages simultaneously. Most people try and find a common language and
communicate in that.

However poorly they may be able to.

In Part IV, it is made pretty clear that Chewbacca cannot physically speak
the same language as Han, which makes their repartee logical...but how many
languages do you expect one person to learn?  Let's see, Han must know
'Common', Wookie, Hut , etc....??  I can see a couple, but one for each
species he meets?  Remember, he never (to the best of my recollection)
actually *speaks* any other language, just understands perfectly the
meaning.  Even part VI, they had backed off to the extent of using C3PO as a
translator for Jabba (and implying that there had been other,
unsatisfactory, translation droids.)

I would further point out that conversations with Selbulba and (whatever the
name of the flying starship merchant was) started off as captioned, and the
segued into English - I believe that it was done to allow a more complex
interaction between the characters, without having to slow the pace of the
movie down to allow the audience time to read what was being said - but
still allow the impression of the diversity that you are looking for.

Just for the record, I've done my best *not* to include any spoilers!  :)

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #723
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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 8 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 724



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]
Re: Newts (was re: A plea for cinematic restraint
Stiker
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
RE: SOME OF US HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET!
[OT/IT] Lay off poor Jar-Jar! / Alien talking in Anglic
Re:  Press Release from Jokelyn, Limon/Reft Sector
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: TMLers at JavaOne
re: please kiill the OT thread
Re: New Site: World Maps
Re: Star Trek Vessals
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Star Trek vessels
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
OT: An interesting way to view a website
Re: Star Trek vessels
[OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]
Re:  Space combat weaponry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:26:31 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 3:17 PM
Subject: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]


>I pity you the hell that you're in that JJB actually provides some relief,
>comic
>or otherwise.


Let us bow down to the all knowing Bloo, the man with absolute knowledge of
what should be funny and what shouldn't be.

>the use of a what many, including myself, to be a modern Steppin
>Fetchit racial stereotype,

Wow. From my own personal experience, I wouldn't say "many". Then again,
maybe it's different where you are. I read a wonderful article a few days
ago about Ahmed Best's take on the whole "Jar Jar as Steppin Fetchit" racial
stereotype argument. Best, longtime member of the stage-musical group Stomp,
was responsible for the characterization of the character, including the
voice acting.

He was disturbed and confused that people were making such a big fuss about
the characters "racial overtones." He pointed out in no uncertain terms that
Jar Jar was a Gungan, not a Jamaican, African-American or African, and he
questioned the motives of those people who started the debate.

It's interesting to note that Ahmed Best is an African-American himself.
It's also interesting to note where the complaints are coming from... not
the African-American community, as one might expect, but from two film
critics, one in New York and one in Toronto.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:43:36 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Newts (was re: A plea for cinematic restraint

- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@hartwick.edu>
To: 'TML' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 5:25 PM
Subject: Newts (was re: A plea for cinematic restraint


>That's just bizarre enough to work. Clumsy, gangly and (apparently)
>foolish are just the qualities I wasn't seeing in Bwaps, maybe they'd
>be more interesting with that difference. How could a Newt act like
>Jar Jar, and still be stereotyped as a dependable, detail-obsessed
>clerical worker?


I'm not sure exactly. Perhaps I overstated myself. Maybe Jar Jar won't be
the template for all of my Bwaps. He wasn't a template for all of the Gungan
either, but mentioning anymore might be a spoiler. Suffice to say, Jar Jar
was... um... one of a kind ;)

On the other hand, Newts could have some very interesting traits despite
their hard-working demeanor. I always tend to look toward the Japanese first
when figuring out how a culture can clash with itself like that.

The Japanese are largely considered to be hardworking, which is largely
true. They are also single-minded to a large degree. Fads in that culture
are particularly interesting, as they sweep across Japan like an
out-of-control prairie fire.

On the other hand, how many Americans are shocked the first time they see
clips from Japanese game shows? These things are extreme and almost alien to
us (we're more used to answering trivia and picking letters to solve a
puzzle, after all). People putting their heads into a plexiglass crate with
a poisonous lizard... People wearing bicycle helmets being beaten with
plastic bats as they run around in mud...

Then, on a whole different level, there's Karaoke... let's get really drunk,
and make fools of ourselves.

It's not difficult to believe that the Bwaps (and their culture) might be
very quirky, maybe even be downright goofy. There seems to be a general
trend that the harder somebody works, the more extreme their method of
"decompression." You don't need to look to Japan to see it. College campuses
in the U.S. are also rife with examples. Look at all of the different
traditions that have sprung up as methods to unwind during and after exams.

So, in closing, if Bwaps *are* like Jar Jar, it might be a Jekyll and Hyde
kind of thing going on. They work really hard and are extremely composed,
and then in their off hours they are Jar Jaresque.

I am pleased that even jokes lead to good discussion.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 17:46:07 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Stiker

Well, I'm back on the list.  So here's a question:

I just got my hands on Striker, and throughout Book 1 they refer to various
tables for DMs to various actions.  I can't find them anywhere.  The copy I
have has three books (1-3) and a design quick reference pamphlet.  Am I
missing a part of the set?  If so, would anyone with Striker be willing to
scan the necessary tables and e-mail them to me?  

Thanks,



          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
	     Gearhead-in-Training

- -- 
Gerfalcon Enterprises - GURPS Traveller Ironmongery for the 5th Millenium
IMTU tc  t4+ tg++ tt? ru ge++ 3i+ c+ jt au@ st+ ls+ pi-(+) 
	ta- he+ kk-- hi+ as++ va++ dr+ so+ zh++ vi+ 0601 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/Traveller/              

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:47:11 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

- -----Original Message-----
From: AveNelso@aol.com <AveNelso@aol.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 5:29 PM
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...


>Corusant as Sylea (or is that Trantor?)


How about Coruscant as Capital? Coruscant is cut from the same mold as the
city-planet from the Foundation series. The Imperium always seemed strongly
inspired by Asimov's trilogy. As such, I don't think it's too difficult to
draw a parallel between these planets.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:50:35 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: RE: SOME OF US HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET!

At 09:14 AM 6/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Sorry for shouting, but I had to get your attention. *Please*, some
>>of us haven't been able to get to see the new Star Wars yet, and it's
>>getting difficult to avoid the spoilers. I don't usually even look at
>>message titles, because my mailer automatically pops up the next one
>>whenever I delete the current ...
>
>The "spoilers" you have seen are all jokes... none of the items mentioned
>(Boba Fett, grav ball, Yoda's death and resurrection, Jar-Jar's death, etc)
>are in the movie.  

And there are no hairless Eewoks with mini-nukes.

But it *was* a good idea.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:51:31 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: [OT/IT] Lay off poor Jar-Jar! / Alien talking in Anglic

> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Episode 1:
> JJB talks funny.  - whether you agree with the racial stereotype criticisms
> or not, its pigeon English (so that the kiddies won't have to read the
> subtitles or have to use their brains to figure out what he said from context,
> as is required of Chewbacca's growlings).  Same thing for the Asian
> accented Trade Federation representatives.
> JJB eats a chicken like thing and almost gets in a fight.
> JJB gets his lips numbed.
> JJB has difficult understanding reality ("Yousa dinkin' dat yousa people gonna
> diieeee?")

Hrumpf. Not very thoughtful on Lucas side. Some of us are going to 
see SW1 in English (whenever it hits this side of the 
Atlantic!!!) although English is *not* our main language (Some 
people simply prefer OV. Personally, I have the wonderful choice of 
English or German, although I am a native Catalan-Spanish speaker...)

An alien talking like an alien, like Chewbacca, is OK. It comes with 
the SciFi argument. It is credible. It adds to the atmosphere.

An Alien talking funny, fractured-grammar English is OK. They have 
learned a terran language, but, hey, they have difficulties. Caution: 
who knows what will be difficult for them?

An alien talking funny English ***which can be identified as some 
Earth-slang, dialect, or accent*** is plain nonsense. I won't get a 
single word (man, getting used to British and American standard 
accents is hard enough!), and there will be no hint to understand 
what is meant by the context, because, hey, even kids can get that 
funny English, can't they?

And besides, it won't add an inch of credibility to the story.

ObTrav: Traveller NPCs who aren't native Galanglic speakers fall IMTU 
in three broad categories:

1.- Those who don't speak it. Yeah, my players suddenly face a guy 
saying "Garkandana Tadaal, Adonee." Pity if they don't understand 
Irkonee ;->

2.- Those who know it... a bit. Fractured grammar is common, but they 
won't talk like germans speaking in English (unless they are Vargr 
who first learned "Germanic" and *then* Anglic). And, if something 
sounds similar to another Earth language, it is an explainable 
coincidence: The Geonee IMTU have a language which places most verbs 
at the end of sentences. So does German. So they make similar 
grammatical mistakes when talking in English. But they don't have a 
German accent!

3.- Those who speak it, period. A story is needed to explain why they 
don't have any problem!
Carlos Alos-Ferrer
Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 14:43:37 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:  Press Release from Jokelyn, Limon/Reft Sector

> From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
> Subject: Press Release from Jokelyn, Limon/Reft Sector
> 
> Dateline: Jokelyn, Limon/Reft Sector
> 
> The courier vessel RSN _Outreach_ arrived in the Jokelyn system today, 

What's the date of the press release?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 14:53:26
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

At 04:51 PM 6/8/99 -0400, you wrote:

>ObTrav: I'm surprised that nobody has drawn the obvious parallels between
>the Newts of Traveller and the Gungan of Star Wars. Jar Jar is the new
>template upon which I will build Newt characters.

Aiieee!!!!  Please, no!  Newts are supposed to be offcious, very
detail-oriented characters, not slapstick.

I've always played Newts like the folks at the DMV.  Slaves to The Book and
it's procedures.

Hell, if Jar-Jar was a Newt, we'd still be in theatre listening to him
introduce himself. 
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 15:02:00
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: TMLers at JavaOne

At 10:27 AM 6/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Just curious,
>
>Any other TMLers going to San Fran for JavaOne? If so, anyone want to meet
up?

Well, I persist in living here, so count me in.

Of course, anyone who continues to mangle the name of our fair city of
Mission de San Francisco de Assisi y Pueblo de Yerba Buena will be shot.

I *so* want to go to NYC and call it New Yo and see how *they* like it..
don't mind me, tourist season is starting again... and I'm already at the
legal bag limit!
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Pardon me, excuse me, Giant vampiric flightless
 winged squirrel, coming through.."
                -Tim the Paladin, "Yamara"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:25:24 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: please kiill the OT thread

Steve Lieb <steve@necadon.com> writes:

>> Well, to the original point, the iMac was much less than twice
>> the $750-$800 cost the original poster quoted.
>>
>> Imac _list_ $1195. Your bargain Celeron is running at 80% of the cost
>> of
>> an iMac, for really crappy components. This actually isn't a Apples vs
>> Wintels picture, either.
>	[[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  could we please move this discussion
>to private emails?  the stupid "my system is better/cheaper/faster than
>yours" argument is less like a debate and more like religion.

You're generally correct in the aim to avoid religous flamefests, but the
specific post you are quoting is discussing the component quality of top
end manufacturers (eg Dell, Compaq, Apple) vs 3rd party mix n match boxes.

It is actually obTrav if you relate back to the recent discussion on
building Traveller computers from discrete systems from different
manufacturers with common protocols.

And the original discussion started from a query whether anyone had a PC
suitable for Win95 development they wanted to donate to Rob Prior for
software conversion of his Traveller software. Knowing how many people here
work in IT, and how many PCs my company is trashing (486 and Pentiums) for
Y2k, it didn't seem too wild a query to ask.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:06:15 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: New Site: World Maps

Jason writes:
>I hate to say this, but every time I try to go look at the site, both
>yesterday and today, I couldn't find anything except a message saying
>that the page was under construction, and the standard disclaimers
>and copyright info.  No world data.  :(  It's a bummer.
>
>Am I missing something?  Thanks in advance for any help I can receive
>on clarifying this issue.  From all reports, the site sounds very
>cool, and I'm looking forward to checking it out.

I think Paul pulled the site at Rob Prior's request following copyright and
trademark issues.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:09:00 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Star Trek Vessals

Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com> writes:

>"(just don't expect 'hard' SF and take the 'Trek' approach to science!)"
>
>WHAT? You can invent a new atomic particle each game session that explains
>what's ahappening to the ship? :)

It *hard* SF. Hard to believe, that is.

Hint for non-Trekies. Just assume someone presses CTRL+ALT+DEL on the
universe at the end of the episode and everything is fine.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:16:57 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> writes:

>>If the former, I've fallen for it hook line and sinker. :-)
>>Dom
>Heheh...You wouldn't hiut a man with glasses on, would you?  :)))

No, I'd stand off and hit his continent with a near-C, virus loaded, pirate
ridden, rock.

Dom ;-)

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:21:20 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Star Trek vessels

"Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> writes:

>Although the specific comparison is different, an age-old repeated error is
>being made here.
>
>"Deadweight Tonnage-Metric" refers to *mass*
>
>I'm not sure what Dom Mooney's numbers refer to, but the "tonnage" in
>Traveller has always refered to Tons of Displaced Hydrogen.

The "mt" figure is definately mass, not volume. The text uses metric tonnes
in places, but I can't find "mt" defined in the book. I tried using the
cargo mass to volume rules to convert to cubic metres, then to Traveller
displacement tonnage. This came up with 1e6 dt ships....

>The best comparison would be volume.  Multiply "tonnage" of Traveller
>vessels by 13.5 to get volume in m^3.
>
>To get Star Trek vessel volume you'd need to either convert the dimensions
>in meters to cubic meters (multiply height times depth times width - of the
>"solid" components, not the overall structure!), or convert whatever
>"displacement" figure they use to cubic meters.

The above is what I attempted to do...

>I do not, however, think that the Constitution Class ships are 160 million
>Traveller tons.

Me neither,


Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 18:56:06 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

At 11:16 PM 6/8/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> writes:
>
>>>If the former, I've fallen for it hook line and sinker. :-)
>>>Dom
>>Heheh...You wouldn't hiut a man with glasses on, would you?  :)))
>
>No, I'd stand off and hit his continent with a near-C, virus loaded, pirate
>ridden, rock.
>
>Dom ;-)

ROFLMAO!!!!

I think you just summed it ALL up..:)
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 19:26:59 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

In a message dated 6/8/99 5:50:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, semo@pil.net 
writes:

<< 
 >Corusant as Sylea (or is that Trantor?)
 
 
 How about Coruscant as Capital?  >>

	Aren't  Sylea and Capital the same planet?  It never says anywhere 
that Cleon (or anyone else) renames Sylea as Capital, but the world data is 
the same IIRC, and it seems likely enough.

		Dave Nelson

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 16:36:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: OT: An interesting way to view a website

Well, I have found a truly unique way of viewing my web site, 
or any sight for that matter. To see the sector page is a 
very different way, follow these instructions.

1.    Go to this website - >http://www.rinkworks.com/dialect/
2.    Select a dialect (I suggest Redneck.)
3.    Enter my website (http://www.ghg.net/tmixon/Trade )
4.    See what happens

Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 18:59:00 -0500
From: "Anthony Merlock" <amerlock@execpc.com>
Subject: Re: Star Trek vessels

I did the calculations on this once, but never double-checked them, so while
I believe them to be correct, I won't be shocked if someone points out
errors.

I worked on this because at one time, I was considering using Star Fleet
Battles rules for starship combat between Star Trek and Traveller ships.  I
even had vector-based movement rules sketched out, but I ran out of steam
before doing much with it.

This is based on the assumption that the Constitution class ship is 190,000
US tons displacement of water (I had 220,000 USdt, but I can't recall where
I got that number).

H2O = 1g/ml = 1kg/l
Lhyd= 70.8g/l = .0708kg/l

1 metric ton = 1kl = 1000l

1 metric ton of h2o = 1kl
1 US ton of h20 ~= 909kg ~= .909kl
1 metric ton of Lhyd = 14.124 kl

14.124/0.909 = 15.54

So, basically, a Traveller dt is about 15.54 times larger than a US dt.  If
the Enterprise is 190,000 US dt displacement, it's actually only about
12ktons in Traveller (actually 12,226).  At my value of 220,000 US dt, it
masses about 15ktons.

I seem to recall that the Federation scout/destroyer was about 90,000 US dt,
which comes out to about 5800 Traveller dt, which fits with other Traveller
destroyer-class ships.

It makes them seem much less impressive, but it makes the crew and weapon
numbers make more sense (if you assume that a Star-Trek weapons are bay
weapons, not  turret weapons, anyway).

Tony Merlock
TML Lurker

>Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:05:04 -0400
>From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Star Trek vessels
>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>>> Dom Mooney responds:
>>> "Constitution Class XI - 160 to 180 mt
>>> Romulan Bird of Prey Class VI Cruiser - 60 - 80 mt
>>> D7A Paingiver Class VIII Cruiser - 100 to 120 mt
>>> I assume these are MegaTonnes (ie 1,000,000 metric tonne units)"
>>
>>I the original Star Fleet Technical Manual, the Constitution Class is
listed
>>as: "Deadweight Tonnage-Metric........190,000"
>>
>
>Although the specific comparison is different, an age-old repeated error is
>being made here.
>
>"Deadweight Tonnage-Metric" refers to *mass*
>
>I'm not sure what Dom Mooney's numbers refer to, but the "tonnage" in
>Traveller has always refered to Tons of Displaced Hydrogen.
>
>Tonnage of (wet) Naval vessels refers to tons of displaced water.
>
>The best comparison would be volume.  Multiply "tonnage" of Traveller
>vessels by 13.5 to get volume in m^3.
>
>To get Star Trek vessel volume you'd need to either convert the dimensions
>in meters to cubic meters (multiply height times depth times width - of the
>"solid" components, not the overall structure!), or convert whatever
>"displacement" figure they use to cubic meters.
>
>Not being familiar with the technical info on ST ships, I'll leave it at
>that.
>
>I do not, however, think that the Constitution Class ships are 160 million
>Traveller tons.
>
>Pete
>
>
>Peter H. Brenton
>MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
>(617) 253-3185
>pbrenton@mit.edu
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 17:00:01 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]

>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
>Subject: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]
...
>Look at the fiirst portion of Episode 4:
...
>Solo shoots Greedo down in cold blood without provocation (original film).

  He threatened to take his ship. This is the TML - no jury of his peers
so constituted would ever convict him :>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:15:00 -0700
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Re:  Space combat weaponry

>.... Hmmmm... this is interesting. Of course you can't predict the
>half-life of an *individual* particle, but I always assumed that you
>used millions of them and a Law of Large Numbers / Central Limit
>Theorem was at work. You seem to imply that's not the case. Do I get
>it right?

Yes.

Bose-Einstein statistics are used for mesons. Classical statistical
mechanics has three faulty assumptions, namely: 1) distinguishable
particles 2) no use of quantum mechanics (ie classical vs. quantum theory)
and 3) relativistic effects

Even so, at high energy Maxwell-Boltzman, Bose-Einstein, and Fermi-Dirac
statistics look pretty similiar (A*exp(-E/kt), 1/(exp(E/kt)/A-1), and
1/(exp(E/kt)/A+1) respectively [ See
http://www.physics.uc.edu/suranyi/Modern_physics/Lecture_Notes/modern_physics9.h
tml ]. (This URL is probably wrapped, so you may have to cut and paste.)

Nevertheless, if you look at a M-B distribution you will note that it is
sharply peaked at low energies and gets broadened with higher energies. [
See http://www.tannerm.com/physical/maxwell/maxwell-boltzmann.htm ] Since
it is in velocity space, and relativistic effects tie velocity to half
life, your particle ensemble distribution will be governed by a broadly
peaked M-B. Your mesons will decay spread out along the beam path for a
very long distribution.

David Summers comments that perhaps an aspect of nuclear damper technology
allows one to decide that the decay process is not truly random.
Unfortunately, this is in flat contradiction to Quantum Mechanics (and in
particular the Copenhagen Interpretation), which postulates that the
wavefunction of a particle correctly describes that particle, not the
particle ensemble.

Furthermore, there is no way to get around the Heisenberg Uncertainty
Principle. Therefore, trying to fix exactly the meson velocity (to ensure
precisely timed decay) will automatically throw the position of the meson
into considerable doubt. In the energy formulation of HUP, trying to fix
the energy of the particle (via relativistic acceleration) will
automatically throw off the lifespan of the particle.

A simple calculation:

HUP: delta X * delta P >= hbar/2

	where X is position, P is momentum, hbar is Planck's constant/2*pi.

A neutral pion has a mean life of 8.4(+/- 0.6)E-17 seconds.

Lorentz factor is 1/(1-v^2/c^2)

Distance traveled is velocity times mean life times Lorentz factor.

To get a p0 particle to travel a mere 12,600 kilometers requires a velocity
of 0.999999999999999 c to get a Lorentz factor of 5e14, at which time the
particle has an energy of 1.5e20 GeV.

Note: The highest energy cosmic ray ever recorded was 3e20 eV. The amount
of energy above is something like 24 billion joules per meson, equivalent
to 5 tons of TNT explosive.

These are ridiculous numbers, even before you consider that, to get a meson
to decay within a space of 10 meters introduces an uncertainly in its
lifespan of 3E9 seconds. For all practical matters, the uncertainty of the
meson's position is the traversal distance.

>Carlos Alos-Ferrer
>Geonee-Maker and BTE Ref
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772
>tm+ t4 ru ge !3i(+) c+ jt-- au ls+ pi+ ta- he+ va++ gn++ so vi-

- --Adam

acgetchell@ucdavis.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #724
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Tuesday, June 8 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 725



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Press Release from Jokelyn, Limon/Reft Sector
RE: Ship-building
Re: Earth Tech
RE: Ship-building
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Newts (was re: A plea for cinematic restraint
Re: Newts (was re: A plea for cinematic restraint 
Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Newts (was re: A plea for cinematic restraint
Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]
Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Striker
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
[ship]  AuricTech Shipyards F21-1 Light Transport (FF&S2)
Re: GT at GenCON
Re: Missiles Declaration
Re: Wingspan of starships
Latest TAS Posting

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 20:14:23 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

At 06:00 AM 6/8/99 -0400, Chris Seamans wrote:

>>hate it.  The fact that at no point did he actually exist (there was no one
>>running around in a Jar Jar suit...all computer) is what I will remember,
>>because it was so damn convincing.
>
>I'm not going to disagree on whether or not Jar Jar was convincing or not.
>However, there *was* a Jar Jar running around on stage, in fact the motion
>and voice actor were one in the same. There *was* someone running around,
>it's just that the Jar Jar suit was added later.

   The previews I saw implied that there was no one there, but actually the
way you are describing it makes more sense--I stand corrected.

   This fits with the technique they used to salvage the scene in Episode 4
between Han Solo and Jabba the Hut.  The "real" Jabba was added over the
original human character.

>On the other hand, I must say that I found Jar Jar immensely entertaining,
>for whatever that's worth.

   I'm not saying that he didn't chew on the scenery (sometimes literally)
to the point of distraction, just that I found it interesting just in how
the rendering was done.

Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

>Hmm. It wasn't awful, but I wouldn't assign it anything other than
>pulp value. Obviously a large part of the intent of the movie was
>marketing. A 9 year old in a principal action role is not
>insignificant if you are aware of toy demographics for boys (I work
>on the educational fringe of the toy market and talk to a lot of toy
>manufacturers). Lucas is a smart cookie.

   Of that there is little doubt.  He has done an excellent job of
marketing his copyrights and maximizing what they can bring in without
stomping all over fans, who can chose to buy the Star Wars products or not.
 Contrast this to Paramount who stomped out a large number of Star Trek Web
site in an effort to promote their own "Official" Web site--I for one was
not happy, and neither were a lot of other Star Trek fans.

>> >Jar Jar Binks Must Die.
>> 
>>   Jar Jar is a temp replacement for C-3PO (aka comic relief, aka the lucky
> 
>He is still annoying as hell :-) When I saw r2d2 I thought, "ah!
>That is why he knows where he is going when they crash in the 1st
>movie." Then I see c3po should know too since he was made there. And
>why doesn't he recognize Lukes last name... but I digress.

   You ask why C-3PO doesn't remember when you see him get ripped apart in
Episode 5?  I can't believe it is the first time...

   Actually I chalk it up to "revisionism can be fun" (sort of like Luke
being allowed to fall in love with what turns out to be his twin
sister--the family relationship was added later to do away with a possible
love triangle)...to be honest I saw no reason why R2 and C-3PO were
included at all, but I guess they had to be inserted somewhere...

Steve Daniels writes:

>And I say its a two hour toy-commercial with a little stuff for the parents.

   So are most movies produced in Hollywood these days that are intended
for general audiences...this has the virtue of having a plot...point?

>>   Jar Jar is a temp replacement for C-3PO (aka comic relief, aka the lucky
>> coward) until the second or third movie.  No doubt at some point he will
>> rejoin his buddies in the swamps with their funky globe weapons.
>
>Its only comic relief if there is some dramatic tension to be relieved.
>I also have to agree with the criticism that he/it is a new Steppin Fetchit.

   We could argue that point.  Sounds like I should be happy I was spared
"Steppin Fetchit" however...

>While Lucas can certainly live without my $5, he can sure count on
>not getting it.  I'm sitting out from anything Star Wars until Lucas
>gives up control.  Which I'm guessing will be about the same time the
>copyrights expire sometime around 2100.

   Err...have you seen the film or not?  If not, I'm not sure your
criticisms are valid if you haven't seen the completed work.

   As for Lucas, rumors circulated back in the mid-90s that Steven
Speilberg was going to take over the project as Lucas had no interest.
Lucas has since indicated that he will indeed complete the first of the
"triology of triologies" he envisioned, but that he will not be making the
last of the triologies (which is suppose to take place in the New
Republic).  The list of producer/directors who said unquestionably they
would not do another sequel only to do one later is rather long, so I don't
think that Episode 1, 2, and 3 will be the last.  After Lucas passes on,
who knows?  You could well see on the hundredth anniversary of the original
trilogy (c.2077) a remake of all nine films.  Partially filmed in space no
doubt....

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 17:24:39 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Press Release from Jokelyn, Limon/Reft Sector

>From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
>Subject: Press Release from Jokelyn, Limon/Reft Sector
...
>no independent confirmation of the situation is available at this time.
...
>If Sansterre went to all the trouble of setting up an extra-Islands 
>courier run, they are certainly going to try and get some benefits
>back from it. <WEG>)

  What a waste of resources! We at the Serendip Combine have avoided the
need for this sort of thing by simply supplying our external affairs
representatives with a few years supply of helpful scripted news reports,
and the authorization to improvise as necessary.

  Frankly, their output will likely bear as much resemblance to reality
as others' specious, self-serving propaganda.

  S. Hudson
        Minister for Social Cohesion, Serendip Combine, External Affairs Div.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 17:25:35 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: RE: Ship-building

>From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
>Subject: RE: Ship-building
>
>I seem to remember in Trillion Credit Squadron, I think, that a world could
>build starships regardless of its starport class. The implication was that
>these were government aka military vessels.

  Under CT rules* Books 2 & 5, and TCS all agree in specifying that starships
may only be built at A starports, and that an A or B starport is required to
build a non-starship.

 * and yes, CT does rule :>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 17:47:29 -0700
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Re: Earth Tech

>The Computer Technology thread has pointed out some interesting
>things.
>
>Our computer technology, and perhaps several other technologies
>at the present day have exceeded the expectations of Traveller Tech
>level. We've gone nowhere, AFAIK, in the field of anti-gravity.

Manipulation of gravity requires enormous energies per General Relativity.
If we could mass produce micro black holes of a couple gigatons each, we
might have a shot at creating "antigravity".

More or less, the energy required to recreate a 1G field is on the order of
the Earth's mass-energy equivalent. If you wanted to create a smaller
gravitational field over a smaller area, it is less, but you are still
considering several megatons of mass energy to do so.

This is why Greg Porter's calculations on TL16 weapons using contragravity
nullification look so ridiculous. Contragravity itself requires so much
energy that, by contrast, energy releases by relativistic kinetic weapons
are trivial.


- --Adam

acgetchell@ucdavis.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 20:50:12 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: RE: Ship-building

At 05:25 PM 6/8/99 -0700, Steven Hudson wrote:
>>From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
>>Subject: RE: Ship-building
>>
>>I seem to remember in Trillion Credit Squadron, I think, that a world could
>>build starships regardless of its starport class. The implication was that
>>these were government aka military vessels.
>
>  Under CT rules* Books 2 & 5, and TCS all agree in specifying that starships
>may only be built at A starports, and that an A or B starport is required to
>build a non-starship.

I just went through this...

High Guard, pg. 20: 
A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders of its
subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its planet,
using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present.

> * and yes, CT does rule :>

and would you believe someone just outbid me on _another_ book 8!


- -- 
At last, extensive rules for the personnel and starships
of the interstellar navies of the universe.
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:13:39 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Wednesday, 9 June 1999 7:13
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...


>
>>ObTrav: I'm surprised that nobody has drawn the obvious parallels between
>>the Newts of Traveller and the Gungan of Star Wars. Jar Jar is the new
>>template upon which I will build Newt characters.
>
>And to think, I kind of pictured him as Snarf come to life...
>
>

Snarf?  Wow!  Can't wait to see Lucas' interpretation of Tellery Windyarm
(spelling?)!!!  Hubba, hubba...

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:15:09 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Newts (was re: A plea for cinematic restraint

- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@hartwick.edu>
To: 'TML' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, 9 June 1999 7:27
Subject: Newts (was re: A plea for cinematic restraint


>
>That's just bizarre enough to work. Clumsy, gangly and (apparently) 
>foolish are just the qualities I wasn't seeing in Bwaps, maybe they'd 
>be more interesting with that difference. How could a Newt act like
>Jar Jar, and still be stereotyped as a dependable, detail-obsessed
>clerical worker?
>
>Walt Smith
>

Useless at everything except...?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 21:14:27 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Newts (was re: A plea for cinematic restraint 

> Chris Seamans wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> ObTrav: I'm surprised that nobody has drawn the obvious parallels between
> the Newts of Traveller and the Gungan of Star Wars. Jar Jar is the new
> template upon which I will build Newt characters.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> That's just bizarre enough to work. Clumsy, gangly and (apparently) 
> foolish are just the qualities I wasn't seeing in Bwaps, maybe they'd 
> be more interesting with that difference. How could a Newt act like
> Jar Jar, and still be stereotyped as a dependable, detail-obsessed
> clerical worker?

I don't see them as bumbling idiots.  I see them as graceful critters, almost 
snakelike in movement.  But that's just me...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 19:43:05 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]

Jory Earl wrote:

> >JJB has difficult understanding reality ("Yousa dinkin' dat yousa people gonna
> >diieeee?")
>
> Why Bloo, why?  Why did you quote it?!  I still have nightmares about those
> words...:)

Never Forget.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco, Inc.

http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 19:43:51 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:

> And to think, I kind of pictured him as Snarf come to life...

Good point!  Law suit!  Law Suit!

- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco, Inc.

http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 19:46:25 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Newts (was re: A plea for cinematic restraint

Walter Smith wrote:

> Chris Seamans wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> ObTrav: I'm surprised that nobody has drawn the obvious parallels between
> the Newts of Traveller and the Gungan of Star Wars. Jar Jar is the new
> template upon which I will build Newt characters.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> That's just bizarre enough to work. Clumsy, gangly and (apparently)
> foolish are just the qualities I wasn't seeing in Bwaps, maybe they'd
> be more interesting with that difference. How could a Newt act like
> Jar Jar, and still be stereotyped as a dependable, detail-obsessed
> clerical worker?

Can't.  If Newt's ran around like Keystone Cops, stumbling upon
their own lips, blinding themselves with floppy beagle-ears, and
sticking their ant-eater tongues into everything, then maybe.
In any non-silly TU, Gungans would be 1000 years dead.


>
>
> Walt Smith

- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco, Inc.

http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 19:49:17 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]

Douglas Glatz wrote:

> Even part VI, they had backed off to the extent of using C3PO as a
> translator for Jabba (and implying that there had been other,
> unsatisfactory, translation droids.)

You will NOT mention the ABOMINATION!
Call the Inquisition!  Bring the Comfy Chair!
None shall speak of the "special edition" and live!

> I would further point out that conversations with Selbulba and (whatever the
> name of the flying starship merchant was) started off as captioned, and the
> segued into English - I believe that it was done to allow a more complex
> interaction between the characters, without having to slow the pace of the
> movie down to allow the audience time to read what was being said - but
> still allow the impression of the diversity that you are looking for.

The one exception that was well done, in terms of language use.
Name is Watto, IIRC.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco, Inc.

http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 19:54:50 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]

Chris Seamans wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> Date: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 3:17 PM
> Subject: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]
>
> >I pity you the hell that you're in that JJB actually provides some relief,
> >comic
> >or otherwise.
>
> Let us bow down to the all knowing Bloo, the man with absolute knowledge of
> what should be funny and what shouldn't be.

Guess I have to include a smiley everytime I'm being sacrastic.


> >the use of a what many, including myself, to be a modern Steppin
> >Fetchit racial stereotype,
>
> Wow. From my own personal experience, I wouldn't say "many".

Its all over the entertainment media.

Best didn't create the character.  Lucas has total control over
every element in his movies.  One commentator put it well,
I think, when he said that he doesn't beleive that it is any
overt comment, but that by using JJB as comic relief,
he unconsciously uses dated racial stereotypes.  I agree.
Nothing intentional, but should have been reviewed.

Too bad Lucas's control meant that no one could
criticize his ideas without fear of being fired.  Even if
he wouldn't fire someone, its still a strong step to take.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco, Inc.

http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 20:23:17 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

"Harold D. Hale" wrote:

>    Err...have you seen the film or not?

Yup.
"Once a philosopher, twice a pervert."
- --Voltaire (IIRC)


- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco, Inc.

http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 18:35:16 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Striker

>From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
>Subject: Stiker
...
>I just got my hands on Striker, and throughout Book 1 they refer to various
>tables for DMs to various actions.  I can't find them anywhere.  The copy I
>have has three books (1-3) and a design quick reference pamphlet.  Am I
>missing a part of the set?  If so, would anyone with Striker be willing to
>scan the necessary tables and e-mail them to me?  

  There's a two sheet hand-out you're missing - my scanner is running for
a change, or I can send a photocopy with B:8.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:45:41 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

>At 11:16 PM 6/8/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com> writes:
>>
>>>>If the former, I've fallen for it hook line and sinker. :-)
>>>>Dom
>>>Heheh...You wouldn't hiut a man with glasses on, would you?  :)))
>>
>>No, I'd stand off and hit his continent with a near-C, virus loaded, pirate
>>ridden, rock.
>>
>>Dom ;-)
>
>ROFLMAO!!!!
>
>I think you just summed it ALL up..:)
>___________________________________________________________
> J-Man

Only if the pirates are TL-12 lesbian Aslan from the Solomani Rule of Man...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 21:20:09 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: [ship]  AuricTech Shipyards F21-1 Light Transport (FF&S2)

AuricTech Shipyards announces the completion of the prototype F21-1
light transport.  Based on the proven technologies of the F21-2, the
F21-1 boasts nearly a 10 dton increase in cargo capacity, at the expense
of having only Jump-1 capability.  At only MCr 15.758 for the prototype,
the F21-1 is less expensive than the Jump-2 F21-2 by over MCr 2.  Volume
purchases would, of course, reduce the price accordingly.

AuricTech Shipyards F21-1 Light Transport

Tons: 100 std (SL Short Rounded Cylinder Hypersonic) 
Dimensions: 19.8 m x 9.9 m x 9.9 m
Volume: 1400 m3
Cargo: 21.9 std (1 hatches, Hdl: 1 x 5 t) 
Mass (L/C): 530 t / 231 t 
Maintenance Points: 7
Passengers High/Med: 0/21 
Crew: 2 / 3 
Frozen Watch: 0
Cost: 15.758 MCr   (Cost Multiplier 1; prototype variant of F21-2)
Tech Level: 15
Size: 8 

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 3 x Comp (CM: .6 CP: 1.67).
Terrain following sensors (TF:570, NOE:190). No bridge.
Communications: 1 x Radio (500 kkm, 0.17 MW). 1 x Laser (1,000 AU, 0
MW).
Sensors: 1xPEMS (12.5 [1.6 mkm], 0 MW). 1xAEMS (11 [.16 mkm] LP, .05
MW).
Survey/Science: None
ECM: None
Signatures: Vis:-1, IR: -0.5 (-1 at 3 MW), Act:0, Neu:-1, Grav:-1

Performance 
1 Jump (10 std/pc fuel) 
1 / 2.4 Maneuver (Thruster: 13 MW)
1 / 2.4 Contra-grav (9 MW)
1912 kph/3764 kph Atmosphere Maximum 
1434 kph/2823 kph Atmosphere Cruise 
1 Power (Fusion: 27 MW,1yr) 
0 Battery
10.2 Fuel (Scoop:3 / No purif) 
24/0/0/6 Accomodations (SmStRoom/LargeStRoom/Low Berth/Emgy Low Berth) 
96 Life Sup. (Type:Standard, Normal Food/Storage) 
1 G-Comp 
0 [20] Armor, 8 Structure 

Weapons:  None

Features:
1 x Airlock 
1x Ship's locker (.05 std ea.) 
1 x Armory (.11 std ea.) 
1 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 24 each) 

Small Craft:  None

Backups 
Drives: None 
Screens: None
Communications: 1 x Radio (500 kkm) 
Sensors: None
ECM: None 
Power & Fuel: None 

Crew Details 2 x Maneuver. 1 x Medical.

The spreadsheet for this ship is, of course, available for download at
the AuricTech dataweb site.


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:45:30 -0500
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re: GT at GenCON

I received my copy of the Schedule a couple of weeks ago.  There 
was (yet again this year) NO mention of SJG taking any part in 
GenCon this year!  There were a couple of Traveller Games being 
run, but IIRC they were based on T4 rules.

A rumor I heard last year was that SJG was no longer attending 
GenCon because Steve didn't like the way Andon was running it, or 
the price they were charging exhibitors.


> does anyone know if there are any GT events at GenCon...My pathetic non
> Java browser wont open up the Anduin offical site...but I'm planning on
> going...
> 


 -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."

The Traveller Book, p. 12

http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 13:15:49 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Missiles Declaration

Dear Folks -

Phil wrote:
> There is a slight error in your calculation.

No kidding.

> r^2/c^2 is in units of second^2, so d is in units of (G second^2) or
> decameters (not km), so your evasion distance is only 0.13cm.

You are quite correct. Stupid here just substituted "6" for acceleration,
when I should have been using 6 x 9.8 m/s^2 = 58.8 m/s^2 = 0.0588 km/s^2.

The equation should read:

          Substituting in the figures above, we get:
               d = 2 x 0.0588 x 1000^2 / 300000^2
               = 117,600 / 90,000,000,000
               = 0.0000013 km
               = 0.0013 m
               = 0.13 cm

Thanks for proof-reading/reality-checking - that's what the TML is for,
after all!  ;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 22:36:30 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Wingspan of starships

At 04:20 PM 6/8/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I once read a gearhead 'rant' about the width versus height
>of a streamlined ship -- does anyone know where I read it
>(I don't) or have any ideas about wingspan & mass & so on...
>Obviously you don't really need wings to land, but I recall
>for instance that the space shuttle's wings put it into a
>controlled fall, rather than a glide - I've watched it land
>though, so that doesn't seem correct to me.

 Well gliding actually is just a controlled fall. 
I would also like to know how to compute Wingspan of ships (Only a few of
the starships IMTU have VTOL capability) I like to make things difficult. :)


>-- 
>Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com


- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 23:40:15 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Latest TAS Posting

I just read the latest TAS news bulliten at SJG's web site.  

It is nice to see that such a fine institution as Lloyd's of London is
still underwriting shipping traffic!

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #725
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Wednesday, June 9 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 726



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GT at GenCon (was Re: Gen Con)
Re: An interesting way to view a website
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Dragon*Con
RE: Ship-building
RE: Ship-building
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Wingspan of Starships
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
RE: Ship-building
RE: Earth Tech
Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]
Re: Wingspan of Starships
re: Reference to PDL's
Re: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Guns in vacuum
Re: Fw: I like missiles
Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors
Re: I like missiles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 23:48:20 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: GT at GenCon (was Re: Gen Con)

Michael McKeown wrote:
> does anyone know if there are any GT events at GenCon...My pathetic non Java
> browser wont open up the Anduin offical site...but I'm planning on going...

This is from a week ago...

At 10:02 PM 6/4/99 -0400, Dan Eveland wrote:
>I would like to invite all those attending the Gen Con Game Fair 1999 to
>take a look at my game listed in my signature when considering what to sign
>up for.
>
>Also, lets consider putting a list of TMLers together who will be attending
>and get together for a nice time.
>
>I was thinking at the Hilton restaurant and bar, temporarily re-names the
>Amber Zone! I'll buy the first round of Scout Brew (or the local-worlders
>beers, if you want to be brave).
>
>Tentative date: Saturday, August 7th, 1999.
>
>E-mail me or the TML. I will compile a list and post it every week until Gen
>Con.
>
>Dan Eveland
>develand@mindspring.com
>
>Personal:  http://www.daneveland.com/
>Traveller: http://www.daneveland.com/traveller/
>Goober:    http://www.daneveland.com/goobers/
>
>
>
- -- 
At last, extensive rules for the personnel and starships
of the interstellar navies of the universe.
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:08:35 -0700
From: "Wayne" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: An interesting way to view a website

> Well, I have found a truly unique way of viewing my web site, 
> or any sight for that matter. To see the sector page is a 
> very different way, follow these instructions.
> 
> 1.    Go to this website - >http://www.rinkworks.com/dialect/
> 2.    Select a dialect (I suggest Redneck.)
> 3.    Enter my website (http://www.ghg.net/tmixon/Trade )
> 4.    See what happens
> 
> Terry

ROFLMAO

Wayne Ewart (CT/HG Templer wanna-be)

wewart@home.com
ICQ 22113294

Give a man fire, and his warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and his warm all his life.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:54:54 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

Date sent:      	Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:45:41 -0400 (EDT)
From:           	Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>

>>>No, I'd stand off and hit his continent with a near-C, virus loaded, pirate
>>>ridden, rock.

>>>Dom ;-)

>>ROFLMAO!!!!

>>I think you just summed it ALL up..:)

>> J-Man

>Only if the pirates are TL-12 lesbian Aslan from the Solomani Rule of Man...

TL 15+ Rob, TL 15+ (with heaps of documentary evidence to
prove that they are)


Andrew etc.
  a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
  http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm
IMTU Code
  tc tm- tn-- t4+ ?tg- @ru @ge !@3i -jt+ au- st+ ls- pi-
  kk+ hi- as va+ dr++ so++ zh+ vi-- da ?si lu++ su+ ge

*****************************************************************
Names Explained 5: ROSE
As with Heather, Violet etc. this name originates from the
unforunate inability of the Victorians to differentiate their
female children from vegetation.
*****************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 00:30:47 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Dragon*Con

Is anybody on this list going to Dragon*Con in Atlanta over the July 4 weekend?


Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
                       -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 22:59:56 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: RE: Ship-building

>From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
>Subject: RE: Ship-building
.
>>  Under CT rules* Books 2 & 5, and TCS all agree in specifying that starships
>>may only be built at A starports, and that an A or B starport is required to
>>build a non-starship.
.
>High Guard, pg. 20: 
>A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders of its
>subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its planet,
>using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present.

  Quite true. Bloody bizarre, though :>

  OK, so there can be a small(-ish) facility for purely local military ship
construction and maintenance, just as a small dedicated corporate facility
can provide support without affecting a worlds starport rating. It might be
a good rule of thumb to restrict that ability to worlds with naval bases.

        Steven Hudson

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"
        (but Space 1889 is quite cool, too)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 16:02:10 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: RE: Ship-building

Dear Folks -

Rob replied:
>>  Under CT rules* Books 2 & 5, and TCS all agree in specifying that
starships
>>may only be built at A starports, and that an A or B starport is required
to
>>build a non-starship.
>
>I just went through this...
>
>High Guard, pg. 20:
>A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders of
its
>subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on its
planet,
>using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present.

The operative word is *ships*, ie. the important thing is the prefix.
_Star_ ships or _space_ ships?? Only the latter at B or lesser ports...
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:14:46 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

>Only if the pirates are TL-12 lesbian Aslan from the Solomani Rule of Man...

That's the TL 14 RoM, bucko!

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 02:31:53 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Wingspan of Starships

>>I once read a gearhead 'rant' about the width versus height
>>of a streamlined ship -- does anyone know where I read it
>>(I don't) or have any ideas about wingspan & mass & so on...
>>Obviously you don't really need wings to land, but I recall
>>for instance that the space shuttle's wings put it into a
>>controlled fall, rather than a glide - I've watched it land
>>though, so that doesn't seem correct to me.
>
>Well gliding actually is just a controlled fall. 
>I would also like to know how to compute Wingspan of ships (Only a few of
>the starships IMTU have VTOL capability) I like to make things difficult. :)

 Not a Contra-Grav user, eh?

 The problem with answering the question you ask is that the answers
keep changing. Aeronautic Architecture is still an evolving science, with
new things being discovered/developed all the time.

 Add to this the fact that most Traveller Starship Architects know next
to nothing about aerodynamic science, and are not shy about displaying
this ignorance in print (myself included).

 As for useful advice:
 To survive re-entry, a starship will either have Shields, a belly like the
Space Shuttle (compact and curved), or Contra-Grav. No hot re-entry
with the wings off of a Cesna will succeed unless you have other
compensations. A hull made of Unobtanium is considered "Shields."
 Why do you need the wings from a Cesna? Lift, plain and simple.
The Space Shuttle's wings are mainly for CONTROL, not lift. They
allow the shuttle to stabilize and steer its fall to the ground, but they
cannot stop that fall.
 The Cesna, on the other hand, is such a hardy flier that landing is
almost harder than taking off.

 If you want a starship to take off under its own power, it must have either:
  1) so much power/thrust/momentum that gravity and atmosphere are not
obstacles, or
  2) enough wing to lift it to where #1 becomes true.

 In general, successful aircraft have wingspans ranging from 2/3 to 3/2
their length. There are exceptions. If high-G thrust and re-entry are
part of the job description of a ship, go with 2/3 of length...

 The primary reasons our modern aircraft aren't also spacecraft are the
above-mentioned rigors of re-entry, and the fact that they are all using
air-breathing engines. Equip an F-4 Phantom or a Saab Draaken with
heat shielding and non-air-breathing engines of equivalent thrust and
trips out to the International Space Station become trivial.

The next question: Why do gearheads care?

 Starship length is important for three reasons. Two of these reasons
are valid as applied to wingspan...

 -determination of overall size for deckplan/external depiction and for
subcraft dispositions.

 -allowable length of spinal mounts.

 -allowable synthetic aperature of sensors.

 Of these, the first and last are valid for wings. Spinal mounts don't mount
sideways. The sensor aperature reaon is only partially valid, as wing mounts
normally carry active sensors and thus have a harder time taking
advantage of synthetic aperature. Passive sensors use vast areas of
hull, and are not usually a wise use of wing surface...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 02:32:18 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

- -----Original Message-----
From: AveNelso@aol.com <AveNelso@aol.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...


>In a message dated 6/8/99 5:50:51 PM Eastern Daylight Time, semo@pil.net
>writes:
>
> Aren't  Sylea and Capital the same planet?  It never says anywhere
>that Cleon (or anyone else) renames Sylea as Capital, but the world data is
>the same IIRC, and it seems likely enough.


I thought that, but didn't really want to go off on a limb. I do see a
distinct difference between Sylea (a generic world that becomes a capital)
and *Capital* the center of the Third Imperium, the largest interstellar
community in the known universe.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 15:18:52 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Ship-building

Present day Earth does not have a shipyard, but the planet has managed to
build a number of marginal spacecraft like the space shuttle, and then what
about the craft being worked on by various private corporations?

Just as a matter of interest how space capable would the shuttle be if
refuelled in orbit or fitted with additional drop tanks in orbit?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 15:18:50 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Earth Tech

Tech level was defined in one of the Traveller books as having a
manufacturing capability in at least one item of a given tech level, for
example a world that makes TL16 toasters would have been listed by the Scout
service survey as a TL16 world.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 03:27:41 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 9:27 PM
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]


>> Let us bow down to the all knowing Bloo, the man with absolute knowledge
of
>> what should be funny and what shouldn't be.
>
>Guess I have to include a smiley everytime I'm being sacrastic.


Especially when it can be taken in two very different ways.

>> Wow. From my own personal experience, I wouldn't say "many".
>
>Its all over the entertainment media.


Yes, because two newspaper critics made similar comments. One of them was in
one of the New York dailies (the "Steppin Fetchit" comment) and the other (a
more general comment) in one of the Toronto dailies. The media says alot of
things that aren't commonly or popularly believed.

>Best didn't create the character.  Lucas has total control over


Well, Best created the characterization (which is what I believe I said in
the first place). He was picked by the casting agent on the basis of his
physicality at a Stomp show. On a lark, the casting agent put Best in line
for the voice acting tryouts as well. Best came up with the "Rastafarian on
speed" angle (which is a large part of Jar Jar's characterization) on his
own and tried it out it. The voice concept for Jar Jar was Best's own. Since
the *only* angle that ties Jar Jar to the black community is the *voice*...
well, you can see where I'm going.

It's also interesting to note that Best said (and I agree) that the
complaints say more about the racism of the movie reviewers than it does
about the racism inherent in the character.

>every element in his movies.  One commentator put it well,
>I think, when he said that he doesn't beleive that it is any
>overt comment, but that by using JJB as comic relief,


That's the understatement of the year.

>he unconsciously uses dated racial stereotypes.  I agree.
>Nothing intentional, but should have been reviewed.


I can't agree here. The sort of cowardly bungler who makes good in the end
is a common and popular archetype in the visual media... stage, screen and
television... period.

Steppin Fetchit is cowardly, bumbles around.

Jar Jar Binks is cowardly, bumbles around.

Scooby Doo is cowardly, bumbles around.

Is Scooby Doo now an "outdated racial stereotype"? Or, are some people
looking for something to complain about the new Star Wars film because it
doesn't live up to the hype and have found a convenient scapegoat?

>Too bad Lucas's control meant that no one could
>criticize his ideas without fear of being fired.  Even if
>he wouldn't fire someone, its still a strong step to take.


Well, that's sad and apparently Ewan MacGregor and Natalie Portman both both
feel very strongly about this. However, in Best's own words he said that he
came up with the voice on his own, for whatever it's worth. I said he came
up with the characterization, and I stand by that.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 02:02:31 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Wingspan of Starships

At 02:31 AM 6/9/99 EDT, you wrote:

>
> Not a Contra-Grav user, eh?

  I reserve it for Really Really big ships that land on planets (like the
big cruisers and battleships). I just couldn't see how a 200,000 ton ship
was going to use thrusters to get into orbit. You would need a pad the size
of a large city to keep from blowing a huge crater in the ground.

>
> The problem with answering the question you ask is that the answers
>keep changing. Aeronautic Architecture is still an evolving science, with
>new things being discovered/developed all the time.
>
> Add to this the fact that most Traveller Starship Architects know next
>to nothing about aerodynamic science, and are not shy about displaying
>this ignorance in print (myself included).
>
> As for useful advice:
> To survive re-entry, a starship will either have Shields, a belly like the
>Space Shuttle (compact and curved), or Contra-Grav. No hot re-entry
>with the wings off of a Cesna will succeed unless you have other
>compensations. A hull made of Unobtanium is considered "Shields."
> Why do you need the wings from a Cesna? Lift, plain and simple.
>The Space Shuttle's wings are mainly for CONTROL, not lift. They
>allow the shuttle to stabilize and steer its fall to the ground, but they
>cannot stop that fall.
> The Cesna, on the other hand, is such a hardy flier that landing is
>almost harder than taking off.
>
> If you want a starship to take off under its own power, it must have either:
>  1) so much power/thrust/momentum that gravity and atmosphere are not
>obstacles, or
>  2) enough wing to lift it to where #1 becomes true.
>
> In general, successful aircraft have wingspans ranging from 2/3 to 3/2
>their length. There are exceptions. If high-G thrust and re-entry are
>part of the job description of a ship, go with 2/3 of length...
>
> The primary reasons our modern aircraft aren't also spacecraft are the
>above-mentioned rigors of re-entry, and the fact that they are all using
>air-breathing engines. Equip an F-4 Phantom or a Saab Draaken with
>heat shielding and non-air-breathing engines of equivalent thrust and
>trips out to the International Space Station become trivial.


  I always thought the Serpent class Scout ship was a good example for a
winged Starship. (I know it had VTOL but it was with thrusters)


>
>The next question: Why do gearheads care?

  I just like making retro like designs for my ships (Buck Rogers anyone)


- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 02:14:16 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: re: Reference to PDL's

At 07:02 PM 6/8/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>  Well I ain't too familiar with TNE/FF&S either, me I am a CTr but always
>>like to try new stuff, and since you can't build missiles in CT rules I
>>figured I would try this book out. (I still haven't figured out why I
>>bought it in the first place 5 years ago)
>
>You can with Mayday 1980, or the special missiles supplement in the JTAS
>with the Vargr on the front.

  I don't have either of them, but will look for them. I am trying to build
up the definitive CT collection (Hey it's a goal!).




>
>Dom
>
>----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
>"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
>Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
>  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
>                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
>Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 
>
>
>
>
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 08:57:31 +0100
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

StarShade wrote:

> I have been toying with an idea about the x-boat ships in my universe...
> Does anyone know what speed and bandwidth one can get from a laser. I was
> trying to design the X-Boat so that after it entered the system it would
> open up its conical shaped frame and present an extractable umbrella like
> dish with the ship being the center structure - I was hoping I could get
> a area radius of about 700 meters or more. Would this speed up
> communications and maybe allow a wider laser beam to the
> sending/recieving station on the world.

I'm not sure anyone knows the maximum bandwidth down a laser. There are loads
of physical limits to lasers, but there may be many ways to increse the bandwidth.

Take the humble analog phone line in the UK. The physical limit you can drive
the line at it 3 k. Not a lot of bandwidth realy. But you then take this
humble 3 k and you do all sorts of jigery pokery with the signal and add some
compression that the nice people a Hays/USR/Motorola came up with and they
manage to get 56 k bandwidth. It probably won't stop there. So your gess to
the amount of bandwidth you can pump down a laser is as good as anyones.

Hope this is of some help.

Ewan
- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:48:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Guns in vacuum

In mail you write:

> OK, I defer to you on this.  Technically, the oxygen bound in the nitrate
> is an "oxidizer", but it is insufficient to completely combust gun powder
> without additional O2 from available air.

Sorry, wrong answer. The material is essentially the same as that used
in a number of solid fuel rockets. It will burn quite happily in a
total vacuum.

>> > BTW, unlike black powder, modern "smokeless" gun powder does not
>> > explode, it simply burns rapidly (and, yes, there *is* a difference.)
>> 
>> All an explosion is, is just a *VERY* fast burn.
>
> That is just plain *wrong*.  An explosion (or detonation) is very
> different from combustion (or deflagration) of gun powder, both
> chemically and physically.
>
> Energetic materials are divided into 3 distinct classes: explosives,
> propellants, and pyrotechnics.  All three are exothermic redox reactions,
> and are self-sustaining after initiation.  The energy released by explosives
> and propellants is comparable, but the physical process is very different.
>
> Propellant burning, or deflagration, is very rapid even combustion that
> begins on the surface of the propellant and proceeds into the grain (or
> other solid body.)

True, but all the components needed for the combustion are already
present *in* the propellant. 

Heck, just consider a bolt action rifle (or a large artillery piece).
Once you close the breech, there's *no* way a significant volume of air
can get into the section of the barrel *behind* the projectile. Yet
they operate quite well in spite of this. 

> BTW, I'm citing TM 9-1300-214 ("Military Explosives") and FM 5-250
> ("Explosives and Demolitions").  Thus, as you can see, the U.S. Army
> and Marine Corps agree with me, or visa versa.

I note that they say nothing about deflagrating propellants requiring
outside sources of oxygen either. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:56:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Fw: I like missiles

In mail you write:

> I dont know about T4 but in TNE the space missiles achieve their
> acceleration and course changes with very short burnt times.

OH? Care to provide a reference where it states this? I suspect that
you've misread something.

> Also Ladar cannot be used to search for targets, only to lock on to targets
> already acquired with another sensor, Ladar or lidar is a point system, not
> an area search system.

Not necessarily. Radar doesn't spray RF all over the place. It sends
out a *beam* of RF, and scans it across the sky. Lidar can do the same.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:59:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

In mail you write:

> Fri, 4 Jun 1999 01:32:18 +0200 (MET DST), Tommy Grav 
> <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>
>>>The amount radiated depends on surface area and also on temperature.
>>>This also assumes passive blackbody radiation, one has to speculate
>>>how one might be able to more actively radiate waste heat at
>>>higher TL's.
>
>>Yes, but you still need som type of radiator and this has to be pointing 
> away
>>from the direction of travel of the missile. This gives you a very limited
>>amount of space as the missile also needs surfaces for electronics, like 
> laser
>>comms, sensors and so on.
>
> There are a bunch of ways to do this.  One obvious way is to
> have the front of the missile, a pod that sticks out, etc.
> covered with sensors and the back covered with radiators.  After
> all, if the radiators need to point away from the foe and the
> sensors point toward the foe, there isn't much need to put them
> on the same surface.

Again, I have to point out that the "front" of the missile is not
neccesarily pointing it the direction of travel, and, in fact, when
making course corrections could be pointed at almost *any* angle to the
missile's direction of travel. 

This means that hiding the exhaust isn't likely to be possible. And
that directional radiators get kinda iffy as well.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 00:42:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
> "*All* xray mirrors are what is called "grazing incidence 
> mirrors". They can only reflect x-rays that hit them at a 
> shallow angle. At steeper angles, the x-rays go thru. So 
> they aren't practical for a missile coating."
>
>         If we assume that *all* xray mirrors available at 
>         TL10 are "grazing incidence mirrors," is it
>         impossible to design missiles that have such
>         mirrors deployed at a suitable angle (possibly
>         unfolding after launch)?

The problem is the (only recently realized) detail that the missiles
won't be pointing *at* the ship* they are chasing. In fact, they may
spend a fair amount of time broadside on to the target (for most
effective use of delta-V in "jinking").

That makes the mirrors a real pain to keep aligned.

>         On another missile string, can 'mines' be launched
>         that are stealth missiles which remain inactive until
>         the target gets close? Such missiles could be 
>         dangerous to vessels that do not have the luxery of
>         completely random movements, such as the P****e ship
>         chasing you (it's most efficient course is straight 
>         for you). Most may never get activated, but maybe a 
>         couple will have a chance to sprint for the target.

This one would work, but only rarely be *practical*. The problem is
getting the "mines" into an area of space that the ship will pass
through. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 00:50:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: I like missiles

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 99-06-04 08:45:09 EDT, you write:
>
> <<   You do realize that the US Space shuttle was nearly penitrated by a 
> paint 
>  chip a few years back.  I think that a paint chip is much softer  than the 
>  explosive warhead you mentioned above.
>  
>  Will >>
>
> Paint chip? Alto it is very dangerus it seems a little funny: a super 
> exspenive, hi-tech, space craft gets terminated by paint chip.  I would add 
> a  little bit of protechion to it.

That's the problem. You *can't*. 

At our tech level you can't armor a ship and still be able to launch
it. It'll be too heavy.

At higher TL's you run into the problem that at orbital velocities,
impact energies are such that armor doesn't help much. 

At the speeds *ships* move at, armor is just plain out of the question.

BTW, consider that jet fighters have been downed by birds. In one case,
a goose hit the canopy, shattering it.

One of the standard tests for jet engines (and for variouis other parts
of airplanes) is the "chicken cannon". It's a gun that fires frozen
chickens at the plane being tested.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #726
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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, June 9 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 727



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: I like missiles
Re: combat in space (was: Fighter Stuff)
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues
Re: Macromolecules
Re : The duck gun (was Re : I like missiles)
Re : Wingspan of starships
Space combat weaponry (was RE: detecting missiles)
Re: GT at GenCON
Re: Re : The duck gun (was Re : I like missiles)
[OT]List Humor
re: Earth Tech
Chicken Cannon (was re: I like Missiles)
RE: Star Trek ship specifications
Re: Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors
RE: Ship-building
RE: Star Trek ship specifications
Re: TMLers at JavaOne
Re:  Space combat weaponry
RE: I like missiles
RE: Fw: I like missiles
Re: GT at GenCON
Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]
Re: Earth Tech

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 00:56:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: I like missiles

In mail you write:

> At 02:46 AM 6/5/99 EDT, you wrote:
>
>>Paint chip? Alto it is very dangerus it seems a little funny: a super 
>>exspenive, hi-tech, space craft gets terminated by paint chip.
>
> the paint chip in question left a half-inch scar on the cockpit window.
> Hit with the effective energy of a .50cal BMG round, IIRC.

> Wasn't there an experiment put up a few years back that was supposed to get
> hit by micrometeors and debris?

Quite a few years back. A lot of the experiments were ruined, because
it was left up for a lot longer than planned on. You see, it was to be
retrieved not long after the time the Challenger blew up. The resulting
setback meant it wasn't retrieved several years late.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 00:59:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: combat in space (was: Fighter Stuff)

In mail you write:

>         [[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  from my short experience with Mantis,
> it does use physics in terms of movement, but there the reality ends.
>         For a truly realistic system, you need to simulate the lag ANY
> detection system would have at the tremendous ranges involved.  At
> 150,000km (not an uncommon range for space scales) you'd have a full
> second lag in the time it would take any active sensor to register the
> ship (ping to craft, bounce, return).  Passive sensors, ironically would
> be MORE accurate since the lag would effectively be halved.  And if the
> ship is moving at 1000kph (creeping, in space terms) this moves it 300m
> in that second - far enough to easily avoid any sort of beam fire.  Of
> course, if a ship was moving on a set course, the targetting could be
> plotted and would be accurate.  But I would imagine at the first sign of
> any danger, the computer's first move is to add a random vector-altering
> component to the thrust direction.

You've made an elementary error. *Velocity* is easily compensated for
in aiming. What counts is how fast you can *change* your velocity. 

Let's say that ship can accelerate at 10g. That means that in it can
change from the predicted position by up to (d=.5at^2) 50 meters in one
seond. If you've got him on passive, he's only got .5 seconds, which
reduces the change in position to only 12.5 meters. 

Now reduce that to the more reasonable accelerations in Traveller. Oops!

>         Of course, this means that space combat using direct-fire
> weapons is a matter more of ambushing the prey or combat of last resort
> against a determined or helpless foe.  (It also suggests why ships are
> vulnerable on their way to the jump point - if you're using you maximum
> acceleration as adding to your singe forward vector, you have no
> acceleration for erratic maneuvers.)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 01:08:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

In mail you write:

> Seriously, I don't have a problem with the format of images, so long as
> their utility is preserved. The problem with converting vector formats
> like MacDraw, or Pict to GIF is that you're converting it to a bitmap,
> which loses the primary advantage of a vector file, which is it's
> scalability.
>
> What the world seriously lacks is an easy to use, portable _vector_
> image format. There are WMF and the various program files on the Windows
> side (which many Mac programs can open), Pict and the various program
> files on the Mac side (which Quicktime and many PC programs can open),
> and Postscript everywhere. 

CGM (Computer Graphics Metafile) is a portable vector format. It's even
supported by a lot of software as an *input* format. The problem is
finding one that supports it as an *output* format. :-(

Are you *sure* Postscript is vector format?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 03:29:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Macromolecules

In mail, traveller@lists.imagiconline.com writes:

> In a message dated 99-05-21 07:35:29 EDT, you write:
>
> << These already exist. They are called "crystals". I've handled a single
>  molecule of silicon that was 6 feet long and a couple of inches thick! >>
>
> crystals are mono-moleculer?  I thought that they were organized molecules.

Crystals of any element are one big molecule. Crystals of compounds get
a bit more complicated.
 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 11:30:00 "GMT"
From: "robocon@ozemail.com.au" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : The duck gun (was Re : I like missiles)

Leonard Erickson wrote :-
>One of the standard tests for jet engines (and for >variouis other parts
>of airplanes) is the "chicken cannon". It's a gun that >fires frozen chickens at the plane being tested.

Yeah, it was initially designed to model geese and duck
impacts with aircraft parts ; the original article
was in 'Gas Turbine and Rotor News' about three years
ago.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
a

__________________________________________________________
Message sent by MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 11:34:44 "GMT"
From: "robocon@ozemail.com.au" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Wingspan of starships

Joe,
Gypsy Comet's comments about approximate wingspans for
spacecraft are correct.

More quantitatively :-
Spacecraft require supersonic or hypersonic hulls,
if using FF&Sn/Greg Porter's VDS/GURPS Vehicles.

I may have listed some formulae on my website on the
'Aircraft Notes' page.

The URL is :-
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Cauldron/1120
Follow the 'Mulish Gearheadedness' link.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer



__________________________________________________________
Message sent by MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 07:48:28 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Space combat weaponry (was RE: detecting missiles)

>You can't get around the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle.

Obviously you just use Star Treks's Heisenberg's Compensators. How do they
work? Very well thank you. :)

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 05:14:12 PDT
From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: GT at GenCON

I heard last year that SJG wasn't going to GenCon, as well...too bad WOC 
drove them an a few other companies away...

I'll have to dig out my T4 rules...

>From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
>Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
>To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
>Subject: Re: GT at GenCON
>Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:45:30 -0500
>
>I received my copy of the Schedule a couple of weeks ago.  There
>was (yet again this year) NO mention of SJG taking any part in
>GenCon this year!  There were a couple of Traveller Games being
>run, but IIRC they were based on T4 rules.
>
>A rumor I heard last year was that SJG was no longer attending
>GenCon because Steve didn't like the way Andon was running it, or
>the price they were charging exhibitors.
>
>
> > does anyone know if there are any GT events at GenCon...My pathetic non
> > Java browser wont open up the Anduin offical site...but I'm planning on
> > going...
> >
>
>
>  -- James Pearson
>"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles
>for players to overcome as they go about seeking
>their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
>This is a very subtle distinction ..."
>
>The Traveller Book, p. 12
>
>http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 07:29:24 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Re : The duck gun (was Re : I like missiles)

"robocon@ozemail.com.au" wrote:
> 
> Leonard Erickson wrote :-
> >One of the standard tests for jet engines (and for >variouis other parts
> >of airplanes) is the "chicken cannon". It's a gun that >fires frozen chickens at the plane being tested.
> 
> Yeah, it was initially designed to model geese and duck
> impacts with aircraft parts ; the original article
> was in 'Gas Turbine and Rotor News' about three years
> ago.
> 
Does that make the chicken cannon canon?  If so, how does this tie in
with the ravioli gun?  >;-)

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:13:54 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: [OT]List Humor

I suppose all of you have seen this before.  In my time here (5 years?) it
has never appeared on the TML though, so I'm damn well sending it;

Question: How many email list subscribers does it take to change a light
bulb?

  Answer: 1,331 ---

  1 to change the light bulb and to post to the list that the light bulb
has been changed.

  14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the
light bulb could have been changed differently.

  7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs.

  27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light
bulbs.

  53 to flame the spell checkers.

  156 to write to the list administrator complaining about the light
bulb discussion and its inappropriateness to this mail list.

  41 to correct spelling in the spelling/grammar flames.

  109 to post that this list is not about light bulbs and to please take
this email exchange to alt.lite.bulb.

  203 to demand that cross posting to alt.grammar, alt.spelling and
  alt.punctuation about changing light bulbs be stopped.

  111 to defend the posting to this list saying that we all use light
bulbs and therefore the posts **are** relevant to this mail list.

  306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where
to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for
this technique, and what brands are faulty.

  27 to post URLs where one can see examples of different light bulbs.

  14 to post that the URLs were posted incorrectly, and to post
corrected URLs.

  3 to post about links they found from the URLs that are relevant to
this list which makes light bulbs relevant to this list.

  33 to summarize all posts to date, then quote them including all
headers and footers, and then add "Me Too."

  12 to post to the list that they are unsubscribing because they cannot
handle the light bulb controversy.

  19 to quote the "Me Too's" to say, "Me Three."

  4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ.

  1 to propose new alt.change.lite.bulb newsgroup.

  47 to say this is just what alt.physic.cold_fusion was meant for,
leave it here.

                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:34:17 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Earth Tech

Antony Farrell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Tech level was defined in one of the Traveller books as having a
manufacturing capability in at least one item of a given tech level, for
example a world that makes TL16 toasters would have been listed by the Scout
service survey as a TL16 world.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
How general a manufacturing technology? I've seen "novelty tech" and
"experimental tech" one or two tech levels above a world's "Tech Level"
from several Traveller sources.

My take on listed Tech Levels: they represent the *opinion* of whichever
Scout looked at the planet last. The planet could have TL18 bodypainting
technology, but be only TL12 in the "important" things - and so would
only get a TL of C on the UPP.

My essay was oriented on Terra during the First through Nth interstellar
wars, and the early Rule of Man. It's my opinion that Terran tech was
unusual during that period, attaining very high levels in some fields but
suffering retarded development in others. The Vilani may have misrecorded
actual Terran tech level due to a bias against cultures without advanced 
gravitics tech, and due to their own lack of knowledge about biological
sciences. As the Terrans have always lagged in gravitics tech, and
excelled in biotech, having an unusual TL profile makes sense - at least
until the Terrans start becoming assimilated into the conquered Ziru
Sirka.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:48:29 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Chicken Cannon (was re: I like Missiles)

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
One of the standard tests for jet engines (and for variouis other parts
of airplanes) is the "chicken cannon". It's a gun that fires frozen
chickens at the plane being tested.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't think the chickens are supposed to be frozen.

Wasn't it British Rail who borrowed a US Air Force "chicken cannon"
to test the cabin of a high-speed train, and were amazed when the
chicken shattered the armored glass, snapped off the steel chairs and
buckled the rear bulkhead of the engineer's cabin? As I've heard it, they
called in the USAF engineers for advisement on the test, and were told
they should have thawed the chicken first.  <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 10:20:46 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Star Trek ship specifications

Here are some stats from the starship recognition manuals 
put out by FASA. I believe that "mt" is metric tons, which 
is mass. If the previously posted conversion of a 50 mt
SCU to 6.75 m^3 is accepted, then 1 mt = 0.135 m^3. This 
conveniently works out to 1/100 the volume of a Traveller
'displacement ton' (13.5 m^3). Thus, 100 mt of Star Trek
ship makes 1 displacement ton of Traveller ship. I haven't
worked out the details, but if the Enterprise were 1,644
displacement tons then 290 m long sounds reasonable. Bear 
in mind when designing these vessels that fuel takes up a 
relatively small volume, on the order of 10%.

Constitution Class Cruiser (Mk II)
	Length			290 m
	Width			127 m
	Height			73 m
	Weight			164,400 mt
	Cargo capacity	19,500 mt
	Transporters:
		standard 6-person	4
		emergency 22-person	5
		cargo			2
	Crew			430
	Passengers		60
	Shuttlecraft		12
	Power			44 'power units'
	Cruising Speed	Warp 6 (216 c)
	Emergency Speed	Warp 8 (512 c)
	6 phasors in 3 banks (maximum 8 pts damage each)
	2 photon torpedo launchers (10 pts damage each)
	shields (6 facings, maximum 16 pts blocked)

D-7A Painbringer
	Length			216 m
	Width			152 m
	Height			55 m
	Weight			100,300 mt
	Cargo capacity	6,000 mt
	Transporters:
		standard 6-person	3
		combat 22-person	5
		emergency 18-person	1
		cargo			2
	Crew			352
	Troops			220
	Shuttlecraft		5
	Power			40 'power units'
	Cruising Speed	Warp 6 (216 c)
	Emergency Speed	Warp 8 (512 c)
	4 disrupters (maximum 8 pts damage each)
	shields (6 facings, maximum 8 pts blocked)

V-8 Bird of Prey Class Cruiser (Type 4)
	Length			136 m
	Width			199 m
	Height			47 m
	Weight			68,000 mt
	Cargo capacity	2,400 mt
	Transporters:
		standard 9-person	1
		emergency 20-person	1
		cargo			1
	Cloaking Device
	Crew			150
	Power 			28 'power units'
	Cruising Speed	Warp 4 (64 c)
	Emergency Speed	Warp 6 (216 c)
	2 disrupters (maximum 8 pts damage)
	1 plasma weapon (maximum 32 pts damage)
	shields (6 facings, maximum 11 pts blocked)


Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 10:25:57 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Missiles, Lasers and Mirrors

Leonard Erickson writes:
"The problem is the (only recently realized) detail that 
the missiles won't be pointing *at* the ship* they are 
chasing. In fact, they may spend a fair amount of time 
broadside on to the target (for most effective use of 
delta-V in "jinking").

That makes the mirrors a real pain to keep aligned."

	I have always assumed that missiles present at 
	least 2 faces to an enemy, but intelligent design
	should restrict this to only 2 faces. Keeping a 
	mirror facing the enemy at the appropriate angle 
	does not sound like an insurmountable problem.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 09:32:21 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Ship-building

Steven Hudson wrote:

>>High Guard, pg. 20:
>>A planetary navy may procure ships at any shipyard within the borders
of
>>its subsector; alternatively, a planetary navy may construct ships on
its
>>planet, using local resources, even if a shipyard is not present.
>
>  Quite true. Bloody bizarre, though :>
>
>  OK, so there can be a small(-ish) facility for purely local military
ship
>construction and maintenance, just as a small dedicated corporate
facility
>can provide support without affecting a worlds starport rating. It
might be
>a good rule of thumb to restrict that ability to worlds with naval
bases.

IMTU the limits on this is in the price. Peace time costs are 2 -10
times higher, wartime no price difference.  No discounts are available
to quantity orders, those discounts require the shipyard.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 07:33:36 PDT
From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Star Trek ship specifications

For the Scout class...Bird of Prey I believe the crew requirements were 
lowered later on..like in STIII..and TNG/DS9..I don't have the Klingon Ship 
recognition manual in front of me...but the FASA stats might not match the 
'newer' cannon version of the ship...BTW...I know this is off topic for the 
list :)
Mike



_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 10:33:53 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: TMLers at JavaOne

> Well, I persist in living here, so count me in.

Hm. Well, ironically, the problem is is that I probably won't get out of the
Moscone center for more than the time it takes to walk to my hotel room... at
the Marriot across the street. :| Up with business travel - see the hotels &
convention centers of the world! (everybody sing: From the halls of 
MoscooOOoonnee to the shores of San Jose...)

> Of course, anyone who continues to mangle the name of our fair city of
> Mission de San Francisco de Assisi y Pueblo de Yerba Buena will be shot.

Oh, shush. Not only does San Francisco have two names (very pretentious)
but you insist of air conditioning the ENTIRE CITY, ALL the TIME! Talk
about wasteful! I gotta bring some of this warm air down with me...

> I *so* want to go to NYC and call it New Yo and see how *they* like it..
> don't mind me, tourist season is starting again... and I'm already at the
> legal bag limit!

I always call it "How do I get a f*%#$ng taxi???". 

Anyway, Doug, I'm going to finally try taking Ye Olde SuperShuttlee
from SFO this time, so there's a slight chance I may bump into you.
Otherwise, the show runs from the 15th to the 18th at Ye Olde Mosconee
Centre, so if any of you locals feel like slumming with the geeks,
try to worm your way in and come by the "KL Group" booth. I'll be there
almost all the time, minus a few hours.

Anyway, I'll be "wired" so feel free to email me if anyone wants to
try to coordinate.

- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:39:02 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re:  Space combat weaponry

Adam Getchell reminded us:
>
>>.... Hmmmm... this is interesting. Of course you can't predict the
>>half-life of an *individual* particle, but I always assumed that you
>>used millions of them and a Law of Large Numbers / Central Limit
>>Theorem was at work. You seem to imply that's not the case. Do I get
>>it right?
>
>Yes.
>
>Bose-Einstein statistics are used for mesons. Classical statistical
>mechanics has three faulty assumptions, namely: 1) distinguishable
>particles 2) no use of quantum mechanics (ie classical vs. quantum theory)
>and 3) relativistic effects
>
>Even so, at high energy Maxwell-Boltzman, Bose-Einstein, and Fermi-Dirac
>statistics look pretty similiar.....<snip>

Oookay!

That was all in English, right?

"It's not such much I dislike someone stretching my mind. I just can't stand
the pain of it snapping back."

:-P

One of the things I *love* about the TML is it often reminds me of just how
much I don't know while giving me a starting point to learn.

Adam, thanks for the post (seriously)! I can't wait to start researching
tonight
those areas I didn't understand (it's great having a half-price bookstore
nearby).
Please keep posting!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 10:51:45 -0400
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
Subject: RE: I like missiles

Hi all,

In mail Shadow writes:

>One of the standard tests for jet engines (and for variouis other parts
>of airplanes) is the "chicken cannon". It's a gun that fires frozen
>chickens at the plane being tested.

Are birdstrikes really the same as impact with a frozen bird? I know
that in my company's combined finite element analysis product with LSTC,
ANSYS/LS-Dyna, the bird strike materials are a fluid model. Maybe it is
more like a jello filled balloon than a water balloon.

Ob Trav: what kind of interesting atmospheric hazards do the starship
designers have to consider. electrical discharge and high winds in gas
giants come to mind.


Bye,

Glenn
______________________________________________________

Glenn E. Myers
ANSYS Inc.                Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (724) 514-2913
Canonsburg, PA 15317      Fax:   (724) 514-3118
______________________________________________________
 
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 23:03:04 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Fw: I like missiles

I may well have missed something, using FFS1 the typical space missile using
a EAPlaC rocket came out as follows;

Missile Tech Level: 	9
Thruster Type:		EAPlaC
Warhead:		50kt Nuclear Detonation
Warhead Mass:	0.235 tons (this includes guidance and comm)
Fuel Mass:		6.765 tons
Total Missile Mass:	7.000 tons
Average Mass of Missile:	3.6175 tons
Minimum Thrust of EAPlaC:	100 tons
G-Rating (Thrust/Average Mass):	27.6434 G
Total Thrust Available (Mass of propellant/FC value)
	FC for EAPlaC is 0.225: 	6.765/0.225 = 30.0666 tonne-hours
Endurance (Total Thrust/Min Thrust):	0.3 hours (18 minutes or 0.6 turns)
Missiles G Turns (G Rating * Endurance in turns):	16.586 (16)
Max G's per Turn:	16.586 (16)

Incidently FFS1 lists this missile as having a 12G/12G rating as opposed to
the 16G/16G rating of the above, were other systems included in the missiles
in Appendix 1 which were not included in the design sequence?

Also as far as radar I was under the impression that it actually produced a
cone rather than a beam, albeit a narrower one for targetting radars. If
they were truly beams it would be much harder to detect the emissions.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 11:12:59 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: GT at GenCON

James Pearson wrote:

> I received my copy of the Schedule a couple of weeks ago.  There
> was (yet again this year) NO mention of SJG taking any part in
> GenCon this year!  There were a couple of Traveller Games being
> run, but IIRC they were based on T4 rules.
>
> A rumor I heard last year was that SJG was no longer attending
> GenCon because Steve didn't like the way Andon was running it, or
> the price they were charging exhibitors.

That doesn't make a lot of sense.  They're on the list of Exhibitors
for Origins, also run by Andon.  Perhaps its just GenCon with
the high prices.


Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco, Inc.

http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 11:16:41 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]

Can't see this thread going anywhere but straight down,
so I'll swallow my responses.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 08:20:53 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Earth Tech

Adam Getchell wrote:
> 
> >The Computer Technology thread has pointed out some interesting
> >things.
> >
> >Our computer technology, and perhaps several other technologies
> >at the present day have exceeded the expectations of Traveller Tech
> >level. We've gone nowhere, AFAIK, in the field of anti-gravity.
> 
> Manipulation of gravity requires enormous energies per General Relativity.
> If we could mass produce micro black holes of a couple gigatons each, we
> might have a shot at creating "antigravity".

<Sigh> I can see where this is going...

Yes, Adam, mesons guns are impossible, so is antigravity (at a practical
level), and to jump in ahead of you, Jump Drive, for all intents and purposes,
is impossible, too. It is incredibly unlikely that there are a half-dozen
earthlike planets in the nearby galactic region, let alone thousands, and any
human ancestors taken from Earth 300,000 years ago and transplanted onto those
impossible planets would probably only vaguely resemble humans today. Besides,
why would aliens do that anyway? Their bichemistries are likely to be so
alien, that we'll have little chance of ever interacting meaningfully with
them, they'll be so foreign.

At any rate, our technology is progressing so rapidly, that _we_ would be able
to make heads or tails of our society in 5000 years.

The point is, with rigorous enough analysis, _any_ science fiction or
role-playing setting can rapidly be turned into a cold, hard sf setting, by
throwing away more and more of the 'impossibilities' until nothing remains
that we can't explain in terms of 20th century science. 

Because, after all, we know _everything_, don't we? 

All that's left is filling in the details, right?

Never mind how that would make the 20th century using the same point of view
expressed by a learned, intelligent rpg-er ca. 3000 BC...

The point I'm beating on is the term 'suspension of disbelief' Some people
have higher levels of tolerance than others, but if we wish to discuss the
game setting in a cogent fashion, we do have to agree that some things on
their face do exist: Jump Drives, Meson guns, practical antigravity work, just magically.

I'm deliberate in choosing that word, and at some point one has to think in
those terms, both in the literal sense and the meaning expressed in Clarke's
third law.

After all, how else would our hypothetical gamer in 3000 BC describe
computers? Magic.

How else do we describe Jump drive? Magic.

We can dress it up in all sorts of pseudo-technical analysis and such, but it
is our cultural conceit that we can explain _everything_ in terms of our
current knowledge.

It's still, at it's heart, Magic.

We're given the external parameters of that Magic...a jump takes seven days,
you must expend a volume of hydrogen equivalent to your ship for each jump
number, contragravity only works within 100 diameters or so of a point
gravitational source, but none of these things tells us anything about _how_
they work, any more than knowing  eye of newt, toe of bat, and blood pricked
from the heel of a newborn was in the mixture that the witches in MacBeth used
tells us _how_ they foretold his future to him.

In fact, we can state, with great certainty that those ingredients did not,,
in fact help them divine the future, because you can't see the future.
Unfortunately for MacBeth, they ignored our learned arguments and foretold
that he would be King of Scotland.

Of course, the witches in MacBeth are only literary devices, as is MacBeth himself...

But so are Jump drives, contragravity and meson guns...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #727
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Wednesday, June 9 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 728



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #727
Re: Wingspan of Starships
Clarke's Third Law?
Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
re: Earth Tech
Re: TMLers at JavaOne
RE: Star Trek ships
Re: I like missiles
re: Earth Tech
Re: Striker 
Material Science (was Re: I like missiles)
Re: Clarke's Third Law?
Re: Earth Tech
RE: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Naval crew turnover (slightly OT)
RE: SOME OF US HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET!
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
(no subject)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 10:33:49 -0500 
From: Steve Lieb <steve@necadon.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #727

> >         For a truly realistic system, you need to simulate the lag
> ANY
> > detection system would have at the tremendous ranges involved.  At
> > 150,000km (not an uncommon range for space scales) you'd have a full
> > second lag in the time it would take any active sensor to register
> the
> > ship (ping to craft, bounce, return).  Passive sensors, ironically
> would
> > be MORE accurate since the lag would effectively be halved.  And if
> the
> > ship is moving at 1000kph (creeping, in space terms) this moves it
> 300m
> > in that second - far enough to easily avoid any sort of beam fire.
> Of
> > course, if a ship was moving on a set course, the targetting could
> be
> > plotted and would be accurate.  But I would imagine at the first
> sign of
> > any danger, the computer's first move is to add a random
> vector-altering
> > component to the thrust direction.
> 
> You've made an elementary error. *Velocity* is easily compensated for
> in aiming. What counts is how fast you can *change* your velocity. 
> 
> Let's say that ship can accelerate at 10g. That means that in it can
> change from the predicted position by up to (d=.5at^2) 50 meters in
> one
> seond. If you've got him on passive, he's only got .5 seconds, which
> reduces the change in position to only 12.5 meters. 
> 
> Now reduce that to the more reasonable accelerations in Traveller.
> Oops!
> 
	[[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  right, i ignored that to simplify the
example.  to compensate for velocity you need a minimum of 2 plots over
time to determine direction and distance over that "time".  that IS
easy.  but what if the target ship is employing a random vector
adjustment WHILE traveling along a curve?  it's rare that a ship would
travel in a straight line (even in microgravity), and then you need a
significant series of plots over time to establish a curve, which can be
altered easily at any time by the target simply slightly changing their
thrust, yes?

	my point, anyway, was first that passive sensors might be more
accurate given the circumstances, and that the "realistic" system in
mantis was only realistic in the representation of ship's motions.  i
have yet to see a space combat simulation that seriously addresses the
difficulties in sensing/engaging targets at the 50,000km+ ranges that
are relatively frequently discussed for such conflict.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 10:49:53 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Wingspan of Starships

Maximum wingspan for an aircraft (based on TL8 info) has to be related
to maximum atmospheric speed.  If maximum speed is subsonic then
wingspan is limited by material strength.  If maximum speed is
supersonic then the wingspan is limited to the following ratio

Wingspan : Length

       2 : Mach Number

in which the maximum wingspan is at the tail of the craft (delta wing).
This is due to the wing having to remain inside the shockwave cone.  If
the wing is placed closer to the nose of craft then the wing will be
shorter.  Future advances may eliminate this restriction.

For atmospheric re-entry the wing should be a low wing design as in the
shuttle or the subsidized merchant.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 08:45:38 MST
From: Jim Moss <jkmoss@hotmail.com>
Subject: Clarke's Third Law?

What are Clarke's first two laws?  I know only one.

J


- ----Original Message Follows----
The point I'm beating on is the term 'suspension of disbelief' Some people 
have higher levels of tolerance than others, but if we wish to discuss the 
game setting in a cogent fashion, we do have to agree that some things on 
their face do exist: Jump Drives, Meson guns, practical antigravity work, 
just magically.

I'm deliberate in choosing that word, and at some point one has to think in 
those terms, both in the literal sense and the meaning expressed in Clarke's 
third law.


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 08:08:54
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]

At 05:00 PM 6/8/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
>>Subject: [OT] Re: Lay off poor Jar-Jar! [Minor Spoiler!!]
>...
>>Look at the fiirst portion of Episode 4:
>...
>>Solo shoots Greedo down in cold blood without provocation (original film).
>
>  He threatened to take his ship. This is the TML - no jury of his peers
>so constituted would ever convict him :>

He also was blackmailing Han.. "maybe if you give me the money, I'll tell
Jabba I couldn't find you.."  Since we know what Jabba had planned for poor
Han, is it any wonder Solo shot his way out?

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 08:13:02
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

At 04:54 PM 6/9/99 +1200, you wrote:

>>Only if the pirates are TL-12 lesbian Aslan from the Solomani Rule of Man...
>
>TL 15+ Rob, TL 15+ (with heaps of documentary evidence to
>prove that they are)

Except of course in the biological sciences, where they easily reach
TL-18...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 08:20:05
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re: Earth Tech

At 09:34 AM 6/9/99 -0400, you wrote:

>My take on listed Tech Levels: they represent the *opinion* of whichever
>Scout looked at the planet last. The planet could have TL18 bodypainting
>technology, but be only TL12 in the "important" things - and so would
>only get a TL of C on the UPP.

The problem is of course that so many things are interconnected.  You can't
build jet engines until the materials technology catches up.  You could
provide Leonardo da Vinci with the plans for an iMac, but nobody would be
able to build it.

If you go to Third World countries, especially in Africa, you can see an
interesting experiment in technology.  Near the ports and major cities,
high tech is imported, and maintained by locals trained by the
manufacturers.  Some of these people branch out and use their skills as
independent contractors, which allow more people to import high tech.  The
farther you get from the cities, the fewer technicians are available, and
the lower the local tech level.

Read _Guns of the South_ for a good look at the problems of introducing
even a slight TL increase without the supporting technologies.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 08:46:36
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: TMLers at JavaOne

At 10:33 AM 6/9/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Hm. Well, ironically, the problem is is that I probably won't get out of the
>Moscone center for more than the time it takes to walk to my hotel room...
>at the Marriot across the street. :| Up with business travel - see the 
>hotels & convention centers of the world! (everybody sing: From the halls of 
>MoscooOOoonnee to the shores of San Jose...)

Around the corner from you on Market street there's a nice little Round
Table Pizza.  Think you could escape for long enough to gobble food?

>> Of course, anyone who continues to mangle the name of our fair city of
>> Mission de San Francisco de Assisi y Pueblo de Yerba Buena will be shot.
>
>Oh, shush. Not only does San Francisco have two names (very pretentious)
>but you insist of air conditioning the ENTIRE CITY, ALL the TIME! Talk
>about wasteful! I gotta bring some of this warm air down with me...

Not true!  We *do* have summer weather!  For about two weeks, at the end of
September, the mercury pushes 80 on somedays.

>Anyway, Doug, I'm going to finally try taking Ye Olde SuperShuttlee
>from SFO this time, so there's a slight chance I may bump into you.

Email me your arrival/departure times, and I'll tell you if it's likely.

>Otherwise, the show runs from the 15th to the 18th at Ye Olde Mosconee
>Centre, so if any of you locals feel like slumming with the geeks,
>try to worm your way in and come by the "KL Group" booth. I'll be there
>almost all the time, minus a few hours.

That depends, does this thing cost anything?

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 12:11:23 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Star Trek ships

Michael McKeown writes:
"For the Scout class...Bird of Prey I believe the crew 
requirements were lowered later on..like in STIII..and 
TNG/DS9..I don't have the Klingon Ship recognition manual 
in front of me...but the FASA stats might not match the 
'newer' cannon version of the ship...BTW...I know this is 
off topic for the list :)"

	The stats that I posted were for vessels that are 
	unlikely to be still in service in the time frames
	of STIII, certainly not by TNG/DS9. By the way, the 
	Romulan V-8 Bird of Prey is listed as a cruiser, not
	a scout. The post was in response to Joe Kirby's
	request for information that he needed to design 
	Traveller ships, so I didn't see it as off topic.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 12:14:35 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: I like missiles

At 12:50 AM 6/9/99 -0800, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> In a message dated 99-06-04 08:45:09 EDT, you write:
>>
>> <<   You do realize that the US Space shuttle was nearly penitrated by a 
>> paint 
>>  chip a few years back.  I think that a paint chip is much softer  than the 
>>  explosive warhead you mentioned above.
>>  
>>  Will >>
>>
>> Paint chip? Alto it is very dangerus it seems a little funny: a super 
>> exspenive, hi-tech, space craft gets terminated by paint chip.  I would add 
>> a  little bit of protechion to it.
>
>That's the problem. You *can't*. 
>
>At our tech level you can't armor a ship and still be able to launch
>it. It'll be too heavy.
>
>At higher TL's you run into the problem that at orbital velocities,
>impact energies are such that armor doesn't help much. 
>
>At the speeds *ships* move at, armor is just plain out of the question.
>
>BTW, consider that jet fighters have been downed by birds. In one case,
>a goose hit the canopy, shattering it.
>
>One of the standard tests for jet engines (and for variouis other parts
>of airplanes) is the "chicken cannon". It's a gun that fires frozen
>chickens at the plane being tested.

At the Paris Airshow a few years back, a bird FOD'ed the MiG-29's starboard
engine at a an altitude of a few hundred feet.  A testament to the skill of
the pilot was that he managed to direct the MiG away from the crowd and
then punch out and live to talk about it.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 12:27:23 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Earth Tech

Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
The problem is of course that so many things are interconnected.  You can't
build jet engines until the materials technology catches up.  You could
provide Leonardo da Vinci with the plans for an iMac, but nobody would be
able to build it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
True, very true. There can still be gaps in the technology, though - 
imagine a culture that develops on a world where the aerial niche is
filled by floaters instead of fliers. No natural examples of winged
flight exist, so while the culture eventually comes up with the material
tech for jet engines, they never figure out lift-generating wings.

They do, however, come up with jet-powered zeppelins, hovercraft,
thrust-supported (rather than lift-supported) aircraft, etc...they just never
built a TL1ish glider.

There will also be the matter of errors in the initial survey. The scout
may miss certain technology that is in limited use, or make an error
analyzing an unfamiliar alternatech. There may also be technologies
the culture has developed, but abandoned - for example, an
environmentally-minded species that knows about nuclear fission
power plants and fusion bombs, but doesn't build them. Or a species
that developed TL16 gengineering technology and buried it, afraid of
the ethical crises and dangers the technology presented.

Of course, either of these two examples brings us back to the question
for Tech Levels - are they a matter of what a species *can do*, or what
a species *does*?

Since most tech level evaluations are applied to human colonies, I'd say
the latter is the intent of the system. In non-human (or alien human)
cultures, there may be a lot of variance from the tech level "norms".

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 12:32:55 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Striker 

> >From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
> >Subject: Stiker
> ...
> >I just got my hands on Striker, and throughout Book 1 they refer to various
> >tables for DMs to various actions.  I can't find them anywhere.  The copy I
> >have has three books (1-3) and a design quick reference pamphlet.  Am I
> >missing a part of the set?  If so, would anyone with Striker be willing to
> >scan the necessary tables and e-mail them to me?  
> 
>   There's a two sheet hand-out you're missing - my scanner is running for
> a change, or I can send a photocopy with B:8.

Email me a copy of the GIF too while you're at it.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:37:22 -0700
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Material Science (was Re: I like missiles)

>> Paint chip? Alto it is very dangerus it seems a little funny: a super
>> exspenive, hi-tech, space craft gets terminated by paint chip.  I would add
>> a  little bit of protechion to it.
>
>That's the problem. You *can't*.
>
>At our tech level you can't armor a ship and still be able to launch
>it. It'll be too heavy.

Not necessarily. Recent tests on buckminsterfullerene tubes ("buckytubes")
show a minimum Young's modulus of 1 Terapascal, to a maximum of 5
Terapascals. (Compare diamond at 1 Terapascal). This would require that we
be able to weave the "lint" (fibers ~ 0.01 mm long) into a continuous
thread to make buckytube "cloth". See "Extended Bond Order Potential for
Nanomaterials" ( http://www.wag.caltech.edu/foresight/papers/Chepap.html )

Right now Fullerene-polymer compositions have been invented that have
decent Young's modulus and strain. See
http://www.godunov.com/Bucky/patents-fulltext/05281653

Given these advancements in materials science, it's not only possible to
armor spacecraft, but make a decent SSTO (Single Stage to Orbit) flyer,
efficient scramjets, commuter vectored thrust cars (see
http://cnn.com/TECH/ptech/9905/27/flying.car.reut/ ), rotovators, and a
tower straight up into orbit ("beanstalk").

>At higher TL's you run into the problem that at orbital velocities,
>impact energies are such that armor doesn't help much.

Relative velocity is important. One could envisage counter-orbits producing
large changes in momentum, but in all likelihood, space traffic control
would put all ships in the same orbital configuration to minimize this.

>At the speeds *ships* move at, armor is just plain out of the question.

Some armor is necessary for shielding from solar wind, radiation, plasma
fields,and micrometeorites encountered near planets. A relative velocity of
>5 km/sec will vaporize most objects, so armor should be relatively thick.
Magnetic shielding might also be possible, depending on the strength of
local stellar and planetary fields. But it would probably not be reliable
(i.e. it wouldn't work against non-ferrous or neutral particles, and would
be problematic in a plasma field of any density), and so you are left again
with armor.

In my (non-canon) designs, I place fuel (which constitutes ~80% of ship
mass for the antimatter rockets) around most of the ship, which have an
electropolymorphic hull. The spin cages don't benefit from this, but they
are usually retracted when near planetary wells. In general, I see a lot of
Traveller ship designs with bridges, computers, etc. exposed at the nose,
top, etc. I think this is bad engineering; I'd put these as close to the
center of the ship as possible. However, such ships are not as
aesthetically pleasing, I'll admit.

>BTW, consider that jet fighters have been downed by birds. In one case,
>a goose hit the canopy, shattering it.

A hit on the canopy is a definite problem, but some have absorbed hits in
the intakes. Glass isn't good armor right now.

>One of the standard tests for jet engines (and for variouis other parts
>of airplanes) is the "chicken cannon". It's a gun that fires frozen
>chickens at the plane being tested.

If I remember correctly, the "frozen" chickens were a mistake the Brits
made when they borrowed the contraption from the U.S. They were wondering
how our planes passed when every single one of theirs failed. ;-)

>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

- --Adam

acgetchell@ucdavis.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 09:41:32 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Clarke's Third Law?

Jim Moss wrote:
> 
> What are Clarke's first two laws?  I know only one.
> 
> J

From the earthtrust home page:

http://204.94.112.170/acclarke.html


Clarke's First Law:

"When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is
possible he is almost certainly right. When he states that
something is impossible, he is very probably wrong."

Clarke's Second Law:

"The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a
little way past them into the impossible."

Clarke's Third Law:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

and of, course it's corollary:

"Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 10:05:42 -0700
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Re: Earth Tech

><Sigh> I can see where this is going...

I don't think you do ...

First comment: I did not tell anyone how to play their game.
Second comment: I made clear, via reference to my campaign web page, that I
tend towards realism.
Third comment: You're perfectly free to ignore anything I write. I make
this obvious statement because, it seems, you believe that I need
explanation of the concept of "suspension of disbelief". I don't, nor do I
try to tell you how to view your world (see first comment).

>The point is, with rigorous enough analysis, _any_ science fiction or
>role-playing setting can rapidly be turned into a cold, hard sf setting, by
>throwing away more and more of the 'impossibilities' until nothing remains
>that we can't explain in terms of 20th century science.
>
>Because, after all, we know _everything_, don't we?
>
>All that's left is filling in the details, right?
>
>Never mind how that would make the 20th century using the same point of view
>expressed by a learned, intelligent rpg-er ca. 3000 BC...

This is the fallacy in your logic. You see, actually, I know we don't know
everything. We have plenty of holes in physics in Quantum Mechanics,
General Relativity, etc. Furthermore, there is a lot of exciting technology
coming out, but even more importantly, mankind has a lot of social problems
to deal with: racism, discrimination, inequalities in wealth distribution,
etc. etc.

I enjoy Traveller because it allows me a format whereby I can project the
future by making educated guesses and flat "what-if" statements that fall
in the holes of what we don't know. Simultaneously, by adhering strictly to
what we do know, suspension of disbelief is heightened via versimillitude.

Your Traveller includes magic like Jump Drives, Meson guns, antigravity,
that was somewhat loosely based upon the idea of science. My Traveller
includes wormholes, lasers, wondrous new materials, and other hard science
that, so far, have not been disproven. Different strokes for different
folks.

And, by the way, the Drake equation updated with recent planetary
discoveries around distant stars suggests *millions* of potential
civilizations in this galaxy alone, depending upon which constants you
tweak.

>After all, how else would our hypothetical gamer in 3000 BC describe
>computers? Magic.

Babbage did quite well in the 1800's. Notice, again, my sci-fi future is
not 5000 years in the future, but more like a couple of hundred.

>How else do we describe Jump drive? Magic.

Albuquierre warp field. Morris-Thorne-Wheeler wormhole. These ideas work.
(Albuquierre is a bit shaky so far, though.)

>We can dress it up in all sorts of pseudo-technical analysis and such, but it
>is our cultural conceit that we can explain _everything_ in terms of our
>current knowledge.

Not mine. In the Physics department a student wrote on the chalkboard "The
eyes of physics = the eyes of the world". I wrote back: "Very
self-congratulatory. What is your equation for hope, love, hate, dreams,
fear, anger, society, relationships, families?"

But several hundred years ago mathematicians such as Euler, Newton,
Liebniz, Lagrange, worked out mathematics that we still use today. Three
thousand years ago someone derived a universal constant of nature: pi. The
history of science is a fascinating topic.

>Of course, the witches in MacBeth are only literary devices, as is MacBeth
>himself...
>
>But so are Jump drives, contragravity and meson guns...

If Jump drives, contragravity, and meson guns are literary devices, then
why set exact parameters on them? Let them do whatever is necessary that
they do in the story you tell. That is, for example, the Star Trek/Star
Wars way.

I'll enjoy my own gaming style, thanks.

- --Adam

acgetchell@ucdavis.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 13:12:32 -0400
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
Subject: RE: A plea for cinema restraint...

Hi all,

Chris Seamans wrote:

>How about Coruscant as Capital? Coruscant is cut from the same mold as
the
>city-planet from the Foundation series. The Imperium always seemed
strongly
>inspired by Asimov's trilogy. As such, I don't think it's too difficult
to
>draw a parallel between these planets.

Absolutely! I came out of the Phantom Menace feeling that it was 
influenced heavily by the Foundation Trilogy. That is nicer than
saying Lucas ripped off Azimov. 

I could look at the gleaming silver ships with retro fins and the 
sprawling metroscapes all day. In fact I frequently found myself 
too immersed in the background detain to pay attention to the 
foreground story. I have waited for someone to do these scenes 
well ever since I read Foundation as a teenager.

Also, the Moot = the Imperial Senate. Very travish, I thought.

Bye

Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 10:19:15 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

>From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
>Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
>
>>Only if the pirates are TL-12 lesbian Aslan from the Solomani Rule of Man...
>
>That's the TL 14 RoM, bucko!

  I though "The King" had proved to his own satisfaction that TL 16-17 was,
if anything, too modest? :>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 10:21:02 -0700
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
Subject: Naval crew turnover (slightly OT)

I thought I'd bring the broad base of knowledge on the
list to bear on another question that's mostly about
contemporary military practice.

While visiting the Intrepid Sea-Air-Space museum last
summer, I noted a plaque on the island of the carrier
listing the ship's 20-odd skippers during its 40-odd 
years of active service. I was surprised to see that 
rapid a turnover; I'd have thought that it would be
more efficient to keep the same commander for closer 
to 5 years or so. 

Is a 2-year turnover of command typical for USN vessels?

What's the typical command turnover for other 
contemporary earth navies?

What are the reasons for the turnover rate? To keep 
people loyal to the Navy rather than to individual 
commanders (for interchangability/modularity reasons, 
or for fear of mutiny)? To minimize the impact of the 
inevitable turnovers by doing them frequently? To 
give more officers a chance to command ships? 

After a two-year command of a CV, does the skipper go 
on to another ship, or to a desk? How about after 
commanding a smaller ship?

And of course, the ObObTrav (obligatory and obvious): 
What are the answers to all of the above questions for 
the Imperial Navy?

- -Russell Bornschlegel

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 17:25:48 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: RE: SOME OF US HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET!

At 09:14 08.06.99 -0500, you wrote:
>>Sorry for shouting, but I had to get your attention. *Please*, some
>>of us haven't been able to get to see the new Star Wars yet, and it's
>>getting difficult to avoid the spoilers. I don't usually even look at
>>message titles, because my mailer automatically pops up the next one
>>whenever I delete the current ...
>
>The "spoilers" you have seen are all jokes... none of the items mentioned
>(Boba Fett, grav ball, Yoda's death and resurrection, Jar-Jar's death, etc)
>are in the movie.  
Damn, now you did it, now you really DID spoil the movie for me....
I was looking forward to these things! ;-)
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 17:33:19 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

>>>>No, I'd stand off and hit his continent with a near-C, virus loaded,
pirate
>>>>ridden, rock.

>>Only if the pirates are TL-12 lesbian Aslan from the Solomani Rule of Man...
>
>TL 15+ Rob, TL 15+ (with heaps of documentary evidence to
>prove that they are)

"Which I am not going to show you for reasons only I know" 
(Leroy the Great)
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 19:43:39 +0200
From: Guillem Plasencia <guillemp@ciberia.es>
Subject: (no subject)

unsubscribe traveller-digest guillemp@ciberia.es

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #728
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Wednesday, June 9 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 729



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Star Trek ships
Re: Space Combat Weapontry
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
unsubscribe traveller-digest
RE: Star Trek ship specifications
Imperial Calendar Question
Re: Imperial Calendar Question
Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies
Superluminal Mesons (was Re: Space Combat Weapontry)
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
re: Reference to PDL's
Re: Superluminal Mesons (was Re: Space Combat Weapontry)
Re: Earth Tech
RE: SOME OF US HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET!
Re: I like missiles
Re: I like missiles
Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues
RE: SOME OF US HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 10:57:08 PDT
From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Star Trek ships

I didnt want to "hammer" the point of staying on topic, I was just making a 
passing mention :)

BTW...the D-7 refit was on the last episode of DS9 in the battle against the 
dominion...this was the same basic design as the one on the TOS...

Mike






_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 10:32:24 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Space Combat Weapontry

"Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at> wrote


> > From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>
> 
> > Meson guns have problems, unfortunately. It's a neat concept, but
> > fundamentally, one cannot predict the half-life of an individual particle.
> > Accelerating them means simply that the entire ensemble is translated via
> > Lorentz transform in time (ie decays a little later due to relativistic
> > time dilation), but it is still a statistical spread (mesons are bosons, so
> > they use Bose-Einstein statistics). For short distances, say, medical use

> .... Hmmmm... this is interesting. Of course you can't predict the 
> half-life of an *individual* particle, but I always assumed that you 
> used millions of them and a Law of Large Numbers / Central Limit 
> Theorem was at work. You seem to imply that's not the case. Do I get 
> it right?

Do you have to predict when the particles will fail if you have
 the meson gun project a field in which they will fail?

I have always assumed that Meson Gun technology is somehow
related to Nuclear Damper technology.  One part of the meson
gun paints a target spot or sphere on the target ship with
a field that _somehow_ [Insert Scientific Handwave Here]
causes the mesons to decay before they otherwise would.
You then accelerate the mesons to such a relativistic 
speed that only a very few of them would decay normally
before reaching that range.  When the mesons pass through
 the Handwave Field it causes them to decay.  

You are taking advantages of mathematical laws by 
accelerating the Mesons so fast that almost none of them
 will have decayed naturally by the time they reach the
target (maybe those about 5 or 6 standard deviations out).
This explains why the canonical Meson gun does no damage in
its line of fire but only at its point source.  The Handwave
Field makes the mesons all decay there before they otherwise 
would have.

Obviously our handwave field is going to have to be
capable of going through normal matter or you could
stop a meson gun from hitting by stopping its handwave
field from aiming it.  Similarly the Handwave field will
have to be speed of light (or be fired slightly before
the mesons are but we are talking about a moving target)
 I would say that that the Handwave Field is probably 
connected to the beam pointer and when you fire the meson
gun the beam pointer guides the Handwave Field to the
target location.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 13:48:18 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

>>TL 15+ Rob, TL 15+ (with heaps of documentary evidence to
>>prove that they are)
>
>"Which I am not going to show you for reasons only I know"
>(Leroy the Great)

"Although rest assured I have had tea with the Kieth Brothers, Marc Miller,
*and* Pope John Paul II, and they all agree with my
enlightened-yet-inscrutable knowledge."

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 14:54:51 -0400
From: "Vincent Gioscia" <vinsgt@vgernet.net>
Subject: unsubscribe traveller-digest

unsubscribe traveller-digest

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 14:04:44 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: RE: Star Trek ship specifications

>Here are some stats from the starship recognition manuals
>put out by FASA. I believe that "mt" is metric tons, which
>is mass. If the previously posted conversion of a 50 mt
>SCU to 6.75 m^3 is accepted, then 1 mt = 0.135 m^3. This
>conveniently works out to 1/100 the volume of a Traveller
>'displacement ton' (13.5 m^3). Thus, 100 mt of Star Trek
>ship makes 1 displacement ton of Traveller ship.


I suspect the SCU figure is suspect.

6.75 m^3 per 50 metric tons works out to an overall specific gravity of
about 7.41. This is around the density of iron-nickle -- thus, if the SCU
were a solid block of this mineral, it would mass about 50 mt.

This seems a little much to me, even assuming bonded superdense hulls.

From all appearances, ST ships are *spacious*, made of materials light yet
strong which are reinforced by dynamic force fields.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 14:11:50 -0500 
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Imperial Calendar Question

I know the Imperial Calendar contains 365 days but I thought
it also contained 6 additional days as holidays for the
Emperor's birthday or some such for a total of 371 days per
Imperial year.

Would some kind soul mind confirming this? I don't have any
Traveller materials with me at work but I believe it's in
the MT Referee's Companion and in the T4 rules book.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 15:33:09 -0400
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Calendar Question

The published calendar was 365 days.  Day 001 was Holiday and was not part 
of any 7 day week.  The remaining 364 days were divided into 7 day 
weeks.  There may have been some mention of a 6 day party around the 
Emperor's birthday, but they would have been pulled out of the pool of 365 
days.  I've never seen anything more than 365.

But then, I've not read it all (sad to say).

Rob


At 02:11 PM 6/9/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I know the Imperial Calendar contains 365 days but I thought
>it also contained 6 additional days as holidays for the
>Emperor's birthday or some such for a total of 371 days per
>Imperial year.
>
>Would some kind soul mind confirming this? I don't have any
>Traveller materials with me at work but I believe it's in
>the MT Referee's Companion and in the T4 rules book.

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious
http://www.mpgn.com/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 15:21:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies

On 06/01/99 15:23:15 you wrote:
>
>>>I have put the far trader costs & revenues into a spreadsheet and come up
>>>with profit figures on large optimized ships* in excess of 100%. 
>
>>I'm interested. Under what conditions ? What design of ship ? How many
>>jumps a year ? Are you getting 'basic' rates, or 'tramp' rates ? Lotsa
>>questions :)
>
>I tried to be as standard as possible in my design, and as simple as possible in
>delivery strategy, for example:
>
>
>Ship Design: GTL 10, 20000 DT USL, 100 DR, 200 turrets (empty), Command Bridge,
>Engineering, 40 Utility, 927 Manouver, 600 Jump, 4000 Fuel, 15 Fuel Processors,
>45 Staterooms, Cargo 14632 (including turret spaces).
>
>5 Bridge Crew, 39 Engineers, 1 Cargo master.
>
>Emass 14006.7, LMass 87166.7, Cost MCr 2736.998, HP 420000, Hull Size
>Modifier:+12
>Accel 0.43 Gs (2.65 Gs empty), Jump 2, Air Speed  0
>
>
>Delivery strategy & Economic Parameters:
>
>Cargo transfer from Highport/Orbit to Highport/Orbit. 
>95% loading.
>70 Hours Manouvering per Jump (transfer from source orbit/highport to Jump point
>& destination jump point to highport/orbit - assuming average jump masking)
>60 hours in port (probably too long - I used 48 hours in the original posting)
>28.3 Jumps per year (from above)
>
>Revenue/Jump: 15290.42 KCr (14632 Cargo at Cr550 per Parsec minus Cr20 per jump 
>lighterage fees.) Cr550 is around the mid-price quoted in Far trader for liners. 
>
>Costs/Jump (KCr):
>    28.67 Salaries (might be a bit high)
>  4843.85 Mortgage
>   400    Fuel (unrefined - not mentioned in Far Trader)
>   193.75 Maintenance & Spares set-aside
>   400.5  Berthing & Starport fee
>
>  5866.78 Total Cost per Jump
>

I'll let Chris comment on the operational aspects of your design.  As for the economic factors, 
the biggest problem is your freight rate.  550Cr/dton is the rate charged for fairly short-
notice freight.  To achieve an average 95% capacity utilization, you need to begin booking your 
hold space as far in advance as possible.  This means you need to use the 400Cr/dton rate.  When 
you consider that 14,632dtons of freight is an entire days traffic on even the largest route and 
represents a whole weeks worth on most others, you'll see that advance booking is an absolute 
necessity for a ship of this size.  Next, the rates in Far Trader assume pick up from, 
and delivery to, the downport.  You have correctly included lighterage costs, but neglected to 
include the additional cost of unloading the ship and then loading the lighter (the freight 
owner will pay to unload the lighter at the downport).  Lighters cost 20Cr/dton round-trip and 
freight-handling is another 16Cr/dton.  This brings the net freight rate to 364Cr/dton and 
leaves the ship with a per-dton/per-parsec profit of 163Cr.

Obviously, this is still way too much money.  After looking at your figures for a bit, I think 
the problem is your use of unrefined fuel.  I didn't set the relative prices for refined and 
unrefined fuel.  Obviously they're screwed up if simply installing some tiny fuel processors in 
your ship and using unrefined fuel is all it takes to make a fortune in the shipping business.  
Under a free market economy, the price of refined fuel has got to fall.  Rather than screw that 
up, I prefer to think that the price of unrefined fuel has got to come up.  If you look at the 
economics of fuel processing, you'll see that in GT it is nearly free to refine fuel.  This 
means that nearly all the cost of refined fuel must be the unrefined fuel.  We could start a 
whole thread on the appropriate price for fuel.  Rather than go any further, I'm just going to 
force your ship to use refined fuel.

Refined fuel raises your ship's costs from 5866.78KCr/Jump to 8866.78KCr/Jump and lowers your 
profit to 61Cr/dton/pc.

This is still a lot of money.  There are two reasons for this.  First, economies of scale mean 
big ships will be more profitable.  This isn't a free-ride though, because the trick to staying 
profitable is keeping such a huge ship at an average capacity utilization of 95% jump-in and 
jump-out for 40 years.  It won't be an easy task.  Second, there's a mistake in the spread-sheet 
I used to calculate break-evens for various ship designs and hence the standard freight rates.  
One of the port fees that the freight owner is responsible for was mistakenly included as 
something the ship owner has to pay.  This results in an 80Cr/dton/jump discrepancy.  The 
solution is to make ship owners pay the Wharf Fees themselves.  I'll discuss this with Chris and 
see that it gets appropriately errataed.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
co-author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 13:33:45 -0700
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Superluminal Mesons (was Re: Space Combat Weapontry)

>Do you have to predict when the particles will fail if you have
> the meson gun project a field in which they will fail?

You've got the wrong point of view, which is the classical one.

Classical physics says property A can be predicted based upon equations to
arbitrary accuracy. In principle, if you knew all the initial conditions
(mass, spin, charge, parity, etc.) you could predict where it will end up
in the future.

The classical view is wrong. Quantum Mechanics has shown for the last 70
years that, at the heart of it, all things are indeterminate. You cannot
predict exactly the value of property A, but only give statistical
correlation for its various states.

In other words, mesons do not "fail" or decay precisely at some moment
known only to them or some omniscent observer. There is intrinsic
uncertainty in each of their properties, about which we can only make
statistical prognostications. The wavefunction of a meson, per
Schroedinger, is nothing more than a catalog of expectation values.

You cannot know when a meson decays until you measure it. To be precise,
the QM nature of uncertainty in its wavefunction cannot be resolved until a
classical measurement brings about its collapse.

In the famous Schroedinger's cat paradox, a cat is placed in a box which
has a particle detector and a particle emission source (say, a radioactive
substance) that we manipulate such that its decay probability is 50% after
half an hour. In half an hour, we open the box and observe whether the cat
is alive or dead. But in the intervening time, Schroedinger argues, is the
cat half-alive or half-dead?

The resolution of this paradox is in the Copenhagen Interpretation. That
is, the emitter is a QM event. The collapse of the wavefunction from a
statistical form to a binary form comes about when the classical particle
detector detects the particle. The cat is alive until the detector makes
the detection. A human opening the box plays no role, ie is not the true
observer. True QM should be and is independent of humans.

The "Handwave Field" you describe that causes a meson to decay in a
predictable matter is another manifestation of a hidden variable. That is,
a property that the meson possesses but that we are unable to measure
intrinsically.

Bell's Inequality, rigorously proven in the 60's, basically asserts that no
hidden variables can exist unless they are tachyonic.

Now this opens up some interesting possibilities. Physicists have been
fooling around with tachyons for decades. One of the big problems is that
tachyons tend to violate Causality. Humanity is a big fan of Causality; it
allows us to make sense of the universe. But is it truly necessary?

We don't actually know. At the length scale humans interact in, our
universe is dominated by photons. Both because we see by them, and because
every interaction that takes place in the daily world is mediated by the
exchange of photons or their virtual counterparts.

However, hold up your thumb for a second. In that time, 10 million
neutrinos from the sun passed through it. Neutrinos outnumber photons in
the universe, and we admit it is impossible for us to have the faintest
idea about the "real universe" of neutrinos when we're still working on the
observable photon one. Neutrinos travel slower than c to the best of our
knowledge (chiefly, Supernova 1987), but there are countless interactions
that we are just beginning to decipher.

So, if you are willing to throw away causality, postulate superluminal
hidden variables, and deterministic manipulation for same, go for it. It's
conceivable. There's a lot that physics tells us that we don't know.

Unfortunately, said superluminal hidden variables violate another Traveller
canon that communications does not exceed the speed of starships. However,
you can probably get around this by restricting the length scale to, say, a
few light seconds.

If someone could measure the length scale of the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen
paradox, that would be a good start. See
http://www.reed.edu/~rsavage/epr.html
For more reading on this, I suggest the works of Novikov "The River of
Time", several papers by Dr. Robert L. Forward, his novel "Timemaster", Kip
Thorne's various papers, Matt Visser's book on Lorentzian wormholes, etc.


>Obviously our handwave field is going to have to be
>capable of going through normal matter or you could
>stop a meson gun from hitting by stopping its handwave
>field from aiming it.  Similarly the Handwave field will
>have to be speed of light (or be fired slightly before
>the mesons are but we are talking about a moving target)
> I would say that that the Handwave Field is probably
>connected to the beam pointer and when you fire the meson
>gun the beam pointer guides the Handwave Field to the
>target location.

Base the EPR field upon tachyonic neutrinos, and you will have no problems.
Pointing and tracking might be a problem given the Novikov Self-Consistency
Principle. Of course, if you can use the EPR field to generate bosonic
decay (a strong field interaction) and weak field interactions, you
basically have a superluminal disintegrator, but then Traveller posits this
at TL16. Also, your field is indistinguishable from a meson screen, except
that it would be weaker at distance than a local EPR meson screen (assuming
it has some sort of inverse relation to distance, which may not necessarily
be true, but then one has a non-Conservative field). Well, there are enough
mathematical quibbles for now, so I'll stop.


- --Adam

acgetchell@ucdavis.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 20:52:40 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

"Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:
>>Only if the pirates are TL-12 lesbian Aslan from the Solomani Rule of Man...
>
>TL 15+ Rob, TL 15+ (with heaps of documentary evidence to
>prove that they are)

Magic documentary evidence, visible only the French king who reads it,
written down from deep personal discussions with the authors of
Traveller....

Dom :-)


- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 20:58:47 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Reference to PDL's

Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net> writes:
>>You can with Mayday 1980, or the special missiles supplement in the JTAS
>>with the Vargr on the front.
>
>  I don't have either of them, but will look for them. I am trying to build
>up the definitive CT collection (Hey it's a goal!).

JTAS No 21, issue date 244-1110  ;-) 1984

Contains 16 page 'Special Supplement 3: Missiles in Traveller'

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 16:47:30 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Superluminal Mesons (was Re: Space Combat Weapontry)

At 01:33 PM 6/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>Do you have to predict when the particles will fail if you have
>> the meson gun project a field in which they will fail?
>
>You've got the wrong point of view, which is the classical one.
>
>Classical physics says property A can be predicted based upon equations to
>arbitrary accuracy. In principle, if you knew all the initial conditions
>(mass, spin, charge, parity, etc.) you could predict where it will end up
>in the future.
>
>The classical view is wrong. Quantum Mechanics has shown for the last 70
>years that, at the heart of it, all things are indeterminate. You cannot
>predict exactly the value of property A, but only give statistical
>correlation for its various states.
>
>In other words, mesons do not "fail" or decay precisely at some moment
>known only to them or some omniscent observer. There is intrinsic
>uncertainty in each of their properties, about which we can only make
>statistical prognostications. The wavefunction of a meson, per
>Schroedinger, is nothing more than a catalog of expectation values.
>
>You cannot know when a meson decays until you measure it. To be precise,
>the QM nature of uncertainty in its wavefunction cannot be resolved until a
>classical measurement brings about its collapse.
>
>In the famous Schroedinger's cat paradox, a cat is placed in a box which
>has a particle detector and a particle emission source (say, a radioactive
>substance) that we manipulate such that its decay probability is 50% after
>half an hour. In half an hour, we open the box and observe whether the cat
>is alive or dead. But in the intervening time, Schroedinger argues, is the
>cat half-alive or half-dead?
>
>The resolution of this paradox is in the Copenhagen Interpretation. That
>is, the emitter is a QM event. The collapse of the wavefunction from a
>statistical form to a binary form comes about when the classical particle
>detector detects the particle. The cat is alive until the detector makes
>the detection. A human opening the box plays no role, ie is not the true
>observer. True QM should be and is independent of humans.
>
>The "Handwave Field" you describe that causes a meson to decay in a
>predictable matter is another manifestation of a hidden variable. That is,
>a property that the meson possesses but that we are unable to measure
>intrinsically.
>
>Bell's Inequality, rigorously proven in the 60's, basically asserts that no
>hidden variables can exist unless they are tachyonic.
>
>Now this opens up some interesting possibilities. Physicists have been
>fooling around with tachyons for decades. One of the big problems is that
>tachyons tend to violate Causality. Humanity is a big fan of Causality; it
>allows us to make sense of the universe. But is it truly necessary?
>
>We don't actually know. At the length scale humans interact in, our
>universe is dominated by photons. Both because we see by them, and because
>every interaction that takes place in the daily world is mediated by the
>exchange of photons or their virtual counterparts.
>
>However, hold up your thumb for a second. In that time, 10 million
>neutrinos from the sun passed through it. Neutrinos outnumber photons in
>the universe, and we admit it is impossible for us to have the faintest
>idea about the "real universe" of neutrinos when we're still working on the
>observable photon one. Neutrinos travel slower than c to the best of our
>knowledge (chiefly, Supernova 1987), but there are countless interactions
>that we are just beginning to decipher.
>
>So, if you are willing to throw away causality, postulate superluminal
>hidden variables, and deterministic manipulation for same, go for it. It's
>conceivable. There's a lot that physics tells us that we don't know.
>
>Unfortunately, said superluminal hidden variables violate another Traveller
>canon that communications does not exceed the speed of starships. However,
>you can probably get around this by restricting the length scale to, say, a
>few light seconds.
>
>If someone could measure the length scale of the Einstein-Podolsky-Rosen
>paradox, that would be a good start. See
>http://www.reed.edu/~rsavage/epr.html
>For more reading on this, I suggest the works of Novikov "The River of
>Time", several papers by Dr. Robert L. Forward, his novel "Timemaster", Kip
>Thorne's various papers, Matt Visser's book on Lorentzian wormholes, etc.
>
>
>>Obviously our handwave field is going to have to be
>>capable of going through normal matter or you could
>>stop a meson gun from hitting by stopping its handwave
>>field from aiming it.  Similarly the Handwave field will
>>have to be speed of light (or be fired slightly before
>>the mesons are but we are talking about a moving target)
>> I would say that that the Handwave Field is probably
>>connected to the beam pointer and when you fire the meson
>>gun the beam pointer guides the Handwave Field to the
>>target location.
>
>Base the EPR field upon tachyonic neutrinos, and you will have no problems.
>Pointing and tracking might be a problem given the Novikov Self-Consistency
>Principle. Of course, if you can use the EPR field to generate bosonic
>decay (a strong field interaction) and weak field interactions, you
>basically have a superluminal disintegrator, but then Traveller posits this
>at TL16. Also, your field is indistinguishable from a meson screen, except
>that it would be weaker at distance than a local EPR meson screen (assuming
>it has some sort of inverse relation to distance, which may not necessarily
>be true, but then one has a non-Conservative field). Well, there are enough
>mathematical quibbles for now, so I'll stop.

This is extremely interesting and far beyond my basic college Physics
courses.  I think I need a beer and an asprin.  (Mommy, my head hurts...)  ;-)

This _is_ really cool stuff.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 18:04:53 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Earth Tech

>
>The point is, with rigorous enough analysis, _any_ science fiction or
>role-playing setting can rapidly be turned into a cold, hard sf setting, by
>throwing away more and more of the 'impossibilities' until nothing remains
>that we can't explain in terms of 20th century science. 
>
>Because, after all, we know _everything_, don't we? 
>
>All that's left is filling in the details, right?
>
>Never mind how that would make the 20th century using the same point of view
>expressed by a learned, intelligent rpg-er ca. 3000 BC...
>
>The point I'm beating on is the term 'suspension of disbelief' Some people
>have higher levels of tolerance than others, but if we wish to discuss the
>game setting in a cogent fashion, we do have to agree that some things on
>their face do exist: Jump Drives, Meson guns, practical antigravity work, 
>just magically.


You're still missing the point, however much I agree with you.  the role of
a Role Playing Game is "fun".  Who the hell cares about what is possible
and what isn't?  the ENTIRE POINT is to just have some fun.  Sure, it is in
human nature to debate these fine points but that should be a light-hearted
debate at the most.  when it stops being light-hearted it begins to take
the fun away from the game.  We all have our ideas about things, why can't
we all agree to disagree, per se, and get back to having fun?

As for my own games, I care little about strict canon and will use whatever
technologies I want that lend fun and adventure to my own campaigns.  If I
want stargates, teleporters and the like, then hell yes I'll use them.  In
my own game I will create a universe where their use is  somewhat logical
(i.e. there is some rationale behind it so the players have some consistency).

But the bottom line is :  FUN.

If you've missed that, then all the techno-raving and science debating in
the world will be for naught because you've lost your players.
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 17:37:38 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: RE: SOME OF US HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET!

At 09:14 AM 6/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>The "spoilers" you have seen are all jokes... none of the items
mentioned
>(Boba Fett, grav ball, Yoda's death and resurrection, Jar-Jar's
death, etc)
>are in the movie.  

	Sorry for overreacting, then ... I just skim most messages, and when
I skimmed the "spoilers" I didn't realize they were jokes.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 18:19:13 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: I like missiles

At 12:50 AM 6/9/99 PST, you wrote:
>One of the standard tests for jet engines (and for variouis other
parts
>of airplanes) is the "chicken cannon". It's a gun that fires frozen
>chickens at the plane being tested.

	Erk ... actually, I believe that's the punch line to a bad joke ...
<some country> borrows US chicken cannon to test their fighter
canopies, spends millions of dollars trying to reinforce them,
finally begs US for help ... "Thaw the chickens before firing them."

	When was the last time an aircraft hit a flock of frozen geese?
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 18:06:01 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: I like missiles

At 12:56 AM 6/9/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> At 02:46 AM 6/5/99 EDT, you wrote:
>>
>>>Paint chip? Alto it is very dangerus it seems a little funny: a
super 
>>>exspenive, hi-tech, space craft gets terminated by paint chip.
>>
>> the paint chip in question left a half-inch scar on the cockpit
window.
>> Hit with the effective energy of a .50cal BMG round, IIRC.
>
>> Wasn't there an experiment put up a few years back that was
supposed to get
>> hit by micrometeors and debris?
>
>Quite a few years back. A lot of the experiments were ruined,
because
>it was left up for a lot longer than planned on. You see, it was to
be
>retrieved not long after the time the Challenger blew up. The
resulting
>setback meant it wasn't retrieved several years late.

	LDEF: Long Duration Exposure Facility. Or Freeflyer, or some such.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 23:15:08 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - DRWGMD files and CT TL issues

On Wed, 9 Jun 1999 11:20:46 -0400 (EDT), shadow@krypton.rain.com
(Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>CGM (Computer Graphics Metafile) is a portable vector format. It's even
>supported by a lot of software as an *input* format. The problem is
>finding one that supports it as an *output* format. :-(

>Are you *sure* Postscript is vector format?

There is absolutely no question that PostScript is a vector
format.  You can embed bitmaps in it, but it is first and
foremost a vector format - in fact, it is a 'human readable'
vector format, being the source code for a program that will draw
the shape in question.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 19:14:37 -0500
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org>
Subject: RE: SOME OF US HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET!

>At 09:14 AM 6/8/99 -0500, you wrote:
>>The "spoilers" you have seen are all jokes... none of the items mentioned
>>(Boba Fett, grav ball, Yoda's death and resurrection, Jar-Jar's death, etc)
>>are in the movie.  
>
>And there are no hairless Eewoks with mini-nukes.
>
But it would have been real neat if there had been.

I saw Corusant and immediately started thinking of the capital from
Asimov's galatic empire. From there it was a short jump to Capital. Add in
the Virus and I was picturing Corusant getting pasted with nukes. 
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com
ICQ# 33152095

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #729
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 10 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 730



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

unsubscribe traveller-digest
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: unsubscribe traveller-digest
Re: Imperial Calender Question
GT-FT Passenger Liners (was Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies)
re: Reference to PDL's
Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff
Re: Missiles
Re: evading lasers
Capital/Sylea  Was Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Capital/Sylea  Was Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Capital/Sylea  Was Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Capital/Sylea  Was Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Alien Star Fanzines for sale...
RE: I like missiles
Re: Capital/Sylea  Was Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Ship-building
Present Day Virus
re: Reference to PDL's
Subject: Re: Earth Tech
RE: I like missiles
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Missiles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 19:42:55 -0400
From: "Vincent Gioscia" <vinsgt@vgernet.net>
Subject: unsubscribe traveller-digest

unsubscribe traveller-digest

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 19:46:22 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

Volker Greimann wrote:

>>>>>No, I'd stand off and hit his continent with a near-C, virus loaded,
>>>>>pirate ridden, rock.
>
>>>Only if the pirates are TL-12 lesbian Aslan from the Solomani Rule of
Man...
>>
>>TL 15+ Rob, TL 15+ (with heaps of documentary evidence to
>>prove that they are)
>
>"Which I am not going to show you for reasons only I know" 
>(Leroy the Great)

   "But I'll provide hints tomorrow at what I have to show, which will of
course appear in a 2,000 page submission which I will discuss with Marc
Miller over lunch next week.  Naturally if you challenge the validity of
any of my hints, I will once again lament the uncivility of the TML to the
HIWG people on their mailing list..."

   I can laugh about it now, but what total waste of time.

Regards,

Harold

P.S. TL 16+ lesbian Aslan from the Rule of Man, with biotech in the TL 21+
range...

- -h

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 20:12:26 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: unsubscribe traveller-digest

At 07:42 PM 6/9/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>unsubscribe traveller-digest
>

Just wanted to let everyone know that I forwarded Vincent and Guillem the
appropriate section of the TML FAQ.


- -- 
To govern is to correct. If you set an example by being correct, who would
dare remain incorrect? 		-- Confucius
Rob Brady		robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 19:38:20 -0500
From: "Vincent P. Runci" <vahid@prodigy.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Calender Question

I know the Imperial Calendar contains 365 days but I thought
it also contained 6 additional days as holidays for the
Emperor's birthday or some such for a total of 371 days per
Imperial year.

Would some kind soul mind confirming this? I don't have any
Traveller materials with me at work but I believe it's in
the MT Referee's Companion and in the T4 rules book

>>The published calendar was 365 days.  Day 001 was Holiday and was not part
of any 7 day week.  The remaining 364 days were divided into 7 day
weeks.  (Rob Miracle)

>>>Additionally, "Starships" (T4) says the following on page 5:  "four other
days are recognized as Imperial-wide holidays, all of which fall on a
Oneday."  Emperor's Birthday = 051, Empire Day (similar to the US Memorial
Day)= 114, Standard Religious Holiday = 184, and Harvest Revel = 282.  The
text goes on to say that other localities may have their own indigenous
holidays.
    Of course, G:T, on page 38 (sidebar) states, "We do not specify other
holidays in the Imperial calendar; these are left up to the GM".
    Hope that helped.

VR

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 01:29:26 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: GT-FT Passenger Liners (was Re: Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies)

I have now calculated the "optimal" size for passenger liners in GT using Far
Trader rules, i.e. the GT FT passenger ships with the best return on investment
(ROI). Trade offs between m-drive performance, number of jumps per year, and
passenger revenue have all been balanced to maximise ROI.

The limiting factor is the amount of breakbulk cargo that the passengers carry
with them (1 DT per high passenger, 0.5 DT per mid passenger and 0.125 DT per
low passenger). The loading and unloading of this breakbulk cargo sets the
minimum port time for the ship.

An interesting point for canon is that these passenger liners give a better ROI
at Jump 3 than they do at Jump 2!

A minimum standard of fittings has been applied in line with the luxury liner in
the back of FT:
- - A couple of armed turrets are present to reassure passengers
- - recreation & entertainment facilites are based on passenger numbers (1 hall
per 50 passengers, 1 pool per 50 passengers, plus 1 stage & 1 Theatre).
- - Lifeboats have been added to provide seating for all passengers & crew plus
20%.


Stones Throw shipyards are proud to announce the continuation of its prestigious
"contact" liner series with the launch of two new passenger liners. These are
designed to give you the best possible return whilst providing your customers
with the ultimate passenger experience.

Our "First Contact" Liner (for those with access to standard maintenance
facilities):

GTL10, 3000 DT USL, DR 100, 2 Turrets (each armed with 2 360MJ Lasers & 1
Sandcaster), Command Bridge, 6 Utility, 181 Manouver, 120 Jump, 900 Fuel, 108
Low Berths (Capacity 432), 276 Staterooms, 4 Sickbay, 6 Hall, 1 Stage, 1
Theatre, 6 Swimming Pool, 15 Vehicle Bay (15 * 10DT short duration lifeboats),
Cargo 63.5 (plus 270 passenger baggage).

Emass 4333.4, LMass 6000.9, Cost MCr 653.032, HP 120000, Hull Size Modifier:+11
Accel 1.21 Gs (1.67 Gs empty), Jump 3, Air Speed  0

Typical figures: 34.9 Jumps per Year, 41% Profit per Trip, 21.7% first year ROI,
71% Breakeven Load.


Our "High Contact" Liner (for those with access to leading edge maintenance
facilities):

GTL12, 4000 DT USL, DR 100, 2 Turrets (each armed with 2 405MJ Lasers & 1
Sandcaster), Command Bridge, 8 Utility, 104 Manouver, 160 Jump, 1200 Fuel, 157
Low Berths (Capacity 628), 391 Staterooms, 5 Sickbay, 9 Hall, 1 Stage, 1
Theatre, 9 Swimming Pool, 21 Vehicle Bay (21 * 10DT short duration lifeboats),
Cargo 79.5 (plus 392.5 passenger baggage).

Emass 4870.9, LMass 7230.9, Cost MCr 847.5, HP 135000, Hull Size Mod:+11
Accel 1.44 Gs (2.14 Gs empty), Jump 3, Air Speed  0

Crew: 5 Bridge Crew, 11 engineers, 6 Medics, 123 Stewards.
Passengers: 157 High Passengers, 314 Mid Passengers, 628 Low Passengers.

Typical figures: 34.3 Jumps per Year, 54% Profit per Trip, 28.6% first year ROI,
65% Breakeven Load.


Figures are guidelines only, no warranty of actual performance implied.  All
source figures are office of trade approved.  Assumption is 95% load,
4000Cr/Parsec/High Passeneger, 2000Cr/Parsec/Mid Passenger, 200 CR/Parsec/Low
passenger, MINUS lighterage fees for passenger and baggage at each end of jump.
Costs INCLUDE estimated 2.5% pa loss premium.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 21:37:39 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: re: Reference to PDL's

At 02:14 AM 09/06/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>At 07:02 PM 6/8/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>>  Well I ain't too familiar with TNE/FF&S either, me I am a CTr but always
>>>like to try new stuff, and since you can't build missiles in CT rules I
>>>figured I would try this book out. (I still haven't figured out why I
>>>bought it in the first place 5 years ago)
>>
>>You can with Mayday 1980, or the special missiles supplement in the JTAS
>>with the Vargr on the front.
>
>  I don't have either of them, but will look for them. I am trying to build
>up the definitive CT collection (Hey it's a goal!).
>
>-- 
>   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business

        Hi, Joe!
        Check out the spreadsheet on my Traveller website that does missle
designs for you, per the JTAS article.  Use the URL in my sig, hit the
"Software" button and download it.  It is Excel 97 format.

        --Michel
        (who is still alive)
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
		Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 18:14:24 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: [TML][Missiles] Re: Fighter stuff

Tue, 8 Jun 1999 23:59:24 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

>> There are a bunch of ways to do this.  One obvious way is to
>> have the front of the missile, a pod that sticks out, etc.
>> covered with sensors and the back covered with radiators.  After
>> all, if the radiators need to point away from the foe and the
>> sensors point toward the foe, there isn't much need to put them
>> on the same surface.

>Again, I have to point out that the "front" of the missile is not
>neccesarily pointing it the direction of travel, and, in fact, when
>making course corrections could be pointed at almost *any* angle to the
>missile's direction of travel.

As far as the mirror goes.  That isn't so much a problem.  If you
are in a setting with vectored thrust, you don't have to face away
from the ship your are closing on.  Even if you don't, the mirror
just has be big enough to shield the ship from the side (which might
mean that missiles should be sphere instead of "torpedo shaped".

>This means that hiding the exhaust isn't likely to be possible. And
>that directional radiators get kinda iffy as well.

The direction radiator can be turned also.  I am, however, presuming
reactionless thrusters that don't have an exhaust.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 18:34:58 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Missiles

>MK VIII Heavy Missile Shadow
>TL:14
>Warhead: Nuclear 100 kt Yield.                          Mass:   72kg
>Propulsion: EAPlaC SF Rocket 4 x 599kg (400 tns trust)   Mass: 2386kg
>Guidance: Seeker (Image Recognition)                    Mass: 1000kg
>Sensors: Passive EMS 60K range  Proc Vol:0.4             Mass:  800kg
>         Ant Diam: 5m Ant Area: 0.6 m2 Ant Vol: 0.03     Mass:   30kg
>ECM: EMM    Vol: 1.40 m3  Rad: 0.7 m2                    Mass:  700kg
>Average Mass:       3.795 tons
>G Rating:   400 / 3.795 = 105.4
>Fuel Consumption:  11.25 m3 per hour (this is where we have probs)
>Fuel Endurance:   2.386 / 11.25 = 0.212
>G Turns:  105.4 x 0.212 = 22.3 (round to 22)
>Max Gs per Turn: 22

Note 1: EAPlaC doesn't have a "maximum" thrust like other rockets
but instead a minimum thurst (so you don't need 4 seperate
rockets.)

Note 2: You've multiplied fuel consumptions wrong.
Four hundred tonnes thrust * 0.3 m3/tonne/hr = 120 m3 per hour.
(The 0.225 is a typo, but the big thing is you've dropped a ten.)
So your missile has an endurance of 2 G-turns, not 22...

On the other hand, the image recognition system seems to big.

Also - for proper calculations of missile perfomance there's a more
accurate formula that takes into account the way the missiles'
mass changes with time. You can find it on various web sites
(Joe's leaps to mind...); the basic form is something like
G-turns = 1/FC * ln(Mf), where Mf is the "mass fraction" - ratio of
loaded weight to weight without fuel - and ln is the natural log -
but don't quote me; look it up.

At TL-14 you can get awe-inspiring performance out of HEPlaR missiles;
expensive but much better than EAPlaC. Still not good enough to
get past good point defence, of course.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 18:39:23 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: evading lasers

>my point, anyway, was first that passive sensors might be more
>accurate given the circumstances, and that the "realistic" system in
>mantis was only realistic in the representation of ship's motions.  i
>have yet to see a space combat simulation that seriously addresses the
>difficulties in sensing/engaging targets at the 50,000km+ ranges that
>are relatively frequently discussed for such conflict.
It's really not that hard. The image of an active sensor "pinging" or
a passive sensor behaving similarly is too simple. The sensor can
measure the ship's position (at the time the light left the ship)
nearly perfectly. By doing this continuously, you know the ship's
velocity as well, equally nearly perfectly. What you don't know is
how the ship's velocity changed in the time since the light left it
(1 second for a ship at 1 light second); by accelerating at random
the ship can vary its position compared to your prediction by
(1/2 a (lightlag)^2), or 5 m for a 1-G ship at 1 lightsecond.
At 1/10 of a lightsecond, the evasion gets much smaller...even for
very high acceleration ships. So at 1 lightsecond you can dodge
well even if you're a scout, at 1/10 of a lightsecond or 1/30 of
a lightsecond you're in trouble even if you can evade at 100 G.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 21:59:49 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Capital/Sylea  Was Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

>I thought that, but didn't really want to go off on a limb. I do see a
>distinct difference between Sylea (a generic world that becomes a capital)
>and *Capital* the center of the Third Imperium, the largest interstellar
>community in the known universe.

I **will** go out on a limb here and say that Sylea is the name commonly
used around Meliu 0. Eleven centuries later the common name is Capital. I'm
quite sure that even in the conservative Imperium 1100 years makes a
difference

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 19:12:52 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Capital/Sylea  Was Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

From: Terry Carlino <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Capital/Sylea Was Re: A plea for cinema restraint...


>>I thought that, but didn't really want to go off on a limb. I do see a
>>distinct difference between Sylea (a generic world that becomes a capital)
>>and *Capital* the center of the Third Imperium, the largest interstellar
>>community in the known universe.
>I **will** go out on a limb here and say that Sylea is the name commonly
>used around Meliu 0. Eleven centuries later the common name is Capital. I'm
>quite sure that even in the conservative Imperium 1100 years makes a
>difference


    It could have also happened because over time, people talked about the
Capital being on Sylea.  And, soon the colonists, on the outer rim are
talking about Capital instead of Sylea, and as time goes on, the name is
changed.

>Terry C

Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 19:12:52 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Capital/Sylea  Was Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

From: Terry Carlino <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Capital/Sylea Was Re: A plea for cinema restraint...


>>I thought that, but didn't really want to go off on a limb. I do see a
>>distinct difference between Sylea (a generic world that becomes a capital)
>>and *Capital* the center of the Third Imperium, the largest interstellar
>>community in the known universe.
>I **will** go out on a limb here and say that Sylea is the name commonly
>used around Meliu 0. Eleven centuries later the common name is Capital. I'm
>quite sure that even in the conservative Imperium 1100 years makes a
>difference


    It could have also happened because over time, people talked about the
Capital being on Sylea.  And, soon the colonists, on the outer rim are
talking about Capital instead of Sylea, and as time goes on, the name is
changed.

>Terry C

Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 22:45:15 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Re: Capital/Sylea  Was Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

In a message dated 6/9/99 10:07:33 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
legate@futureone.com writes:

<< 
     It could have also happened because over time, people talked about the
 Capital being on Sylea.  And, soon the colonists, on the outer rim are
 talking about Capital instead of Sylea, and as time goes on, the name is
 changed.
  >>

	That's very similar to how Constantinople became Istanbul,   Istanbul 
is a Turkish pronunciation of the Greek phrase "EIS TEN POLIN"  whihc means 
"To the city".   Turks keptasking Greeks where they were going in the middle 
ages, and they replied "eistenpolin".

		Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 19:54:16 -0700
From: Jerry Paul Sanders <timmon@primenet.com>
Subject: Alien Star Fanzines for sale...

I recently came into possession of a complete set of Alien Star (issues
#1-8) - a British Traveller fanzine printed in the early 80's. This leaves
me with a couple of spares, so I am selling them and a few other Traveller
items listed below:


Alien Star 7 - Recreation Issue
$10 (Excellent condition) February 1982, digest size, 42 pages.
	Features: Data Bank (background info on the Pleasure Worlds), Customised
Ships (Non-Jump 	Starship design), Mini-plots (misc. scenario nuggets),
System Failure (adventure), Arms & 	Equipment (surface transport), SanLando
(a guide to the city of SanLando - with seperate map), 	Globe Hopper Rally
(boardgame for racing on the Pleasure Worlds - with seperate map).

Alien Star 8 - Rebellion Issue
$8 (Cover is ripped & partially missing, otherwise Good condition) April
1982, digest size, 42 pages.
	Features: Customised Ships (more designs), Mini-plots (misc. scenario
nuggets), Data Bank 	(useful background), NPC Encounters of the Third Kind
(a look at NPC's), G.M Report (a "Story 	Style Campaign Report"), Escape
Route (adventure for Mercenary types), Small Craft (vehicle 	designs), Arms
& Equipment (weapons), Striker Designs (a "M.D.C.T." design). 

(* If you buy both, I'll throw in a photocopy of Alien Star 6 - Recovery
Issue, that I no longer need *)

Alien Module 1: Aslan
$12 (Good condition)

Alien Module 3: Vargr
$12 (Good condition)

Alien Module 8: Darrians
$12 (Good condition)

Travellers' Digest 11
$10 (Good condition) Jan. 1988, full size, 48 pages.
	Features: Missing in Transit (adventure), Shiwonee Subsector (map/data),
Far Trinity (system 	survey), Massilia Sector (map/data), Project
Blackheart (ship design), Medical Digest/Gaming 	Digest/Traveller Arsenal/
Q&A.

Travellers' Digest 12
$8 (Partial cover seperation, otherwise good condition) April 1988, full
size, 48 pages.
	Features: Life Underground (adventure), Inside Information (adventure),
The Brinn (alien race), 	Dethenes Subsector (map/data), Torrel (system
survey), The Old Expanses Sector (map/data), 	Medical Digest/Gaming Digest/
Traveller Arsenal/ Q&A.

Travellers' Digest 14
$12 (Good condition) Oct. 1988, full size, 56 pages.
	Features: Spectrum Analysis (adventure), Ghost Ship (adventure), Starmercs
(ship design), 	Ptolemy (system survey), Four Kings (pirates!), Magyar
Sector (map/data), In Defense of Lucan 	(essay), Medical Digest/Gaming
Digest/ Gaming Digest/Q&A, Uniforms of the Terran 	Occupation (essay/data).

*****

Postage is $3 within the US, and $6 everywhere else.

Cordially,
Paul Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 22:55:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: RE: I like missiles

>Hi all,
>
>In mail Shadow writes:
>
>>One of the standard tests for jet engines (and for variouis other parts
>>of airplanes) is the "chicken cannon". It's a gun that fires frozen
>>chickens at the plane being tested.
>
>Are birdstrikes really the same as impact with a frozen bird? I know
>that in my company's combined finite element analysis product with LSTC,
>ANSYS/LS-Dyna, the bird strike materials are a fluid model. Maybe it is
>more like a jello filled balloon than a water balloon.

Thawed birds, I think.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 22:52:06 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Capital/Sylea  Was Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Terry Carlino <carlino@home.com>
To: Traveller Mailing list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, June 09, 1999 10:04 PM
Subject: Capital/Sylea Was Re: A plea for cinema restraint...


>I **will** go out on a limb here and say that Sylea is the name commonly
>used around Meliu 0. Eleven centuries later the common name is Capital. I'm
>quite sure that even in the conservative Imperium 1100 years makes a
>difference


I'm just saying that the difference is in more than name, that's all. It may
be the same physical location, but I don't think that it's the same place,
if that makes any sense.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 23:39:50 EDT
From: SRKOALA@aol.com
Subject: Re: Ship-building

In a message dated 99-06-07 13:09:55 EDT, you write:

<< As for number 3, the lanthanum, it gives a very good reason why a world
 capable of making starships in a pocket empire must conquer new worlds, to
 obtain lanthanum to build newer (and bigger) starships. You may want to
 consider a lanthanum factor based on the world size and density, being how
 much can be mined per year. Its consumption would be linked to Jump Drive
 mass (i.e. we only dig enough lanthanum to build 1000 tons of jump drives a
 year, do we build one jump-3 25,000 ton battlecruiser or 2 jump-4 10,000
 ton heavy cruisers? Planet X has lanthanum? Great, hang on while I embark
 my infantry division.....) >>

maybe (size+2)*4[*24 if asteroid]*pop*resource/5 tonns a year?
- -Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:04:12 +1000
From: Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au
Subject: Present Day Virus

The lifts in our office block are showing all the signs of a virus infection.
They change direction at whim, stop at floors that no-one has requested, and
just yesterday they wouldn't let anyone into the building at all. It's almost
like they're sentient, and are starting to see what trouble they can cause.

 At least they haven't killed anyone - yet.    ; - )

<obtrav> Has anyone else got a story about virus-like behaviour from present-day
inanimate objects. No, I'm not paranoid. I don't think virus has arrived yet. I
just want to harvest a few anecdotes to tell my players about the sorts of
things that could happen when virus hits town.
__________________________________________________________________
GS d-() s++: a c++() U P L E? W+ N>+ !o !K W+>++  !O M(-)V(-) PS+ PE-() Y+
t+(+++) 5++ X(+) R+>++ tv++ b+>++ DI++ D(++) G e++
h- - - - - r+++ y+++

IMTU tc+ tm tn t4 tg tt ru+(-) ge-() 3i c+ jt- au(-) ?st ls(-)pi@
ta he+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 00:17:35 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: re: Reference to PDL's

At 09:37 PM 6/9/99 -0300, you wrote:
>
>        Hi, Joe!
>        Check out the spreadsheet on my Traveller website that does missle
>designs for you, per the JTAS article.  Use the URL in my sig, hit the
>"Software" button and download it.  It is Excel 97 format.
>
>        --Michel


  Thanks. I will get it tonite. Now all I have to do is get Excell 97. :)
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 01:43:33 -0500
From: "Kurtis Rodgers" <kurtis@fastlane.net>
Subject: Subject: Re: Earth Tech

Has anyone else here heard the one about the jargon protocol the ST:NG
script writers supposedly followed?  The idea is that in order to maintain
at least a patina of continuity in the jargon, the writers will simply put
[tech] in the script as a kind of symbolic constant when a character uses
technical jargon.  A hypothetical example:

Data:  "Our [tech] emitters are not penetrating the [tech] screen.  I will
have to boost the power to the [tech] in order to breach it."

Later, the jargon police would come in and 'fill in the blanks'.

How much of the Traveller canon forms actual game mechanics, designed to
create an enjoyable imaginary universe, and how much of it is just otherwise
disposable [tech]?

This is a question each Ref has to answer for his or herself.

In my case, the strongest academic background my players have as a whole is
history, several having various degrees, with comp sci a close second.  If I
ever attempt a historic fanatasy campaign, I'll have a pretty tough
audience.  But if I'm going to run a Trav campaign, and I go nattering on
*too* much about the minutea of Traveller technology canon, I'll be getting
[tech] jokes from the gallery pretty damn quick.

As a GM, I always try to play to my audience.  You need enough details to
flesh out the imaginary world and make it interesting for your players, but
not so many that you bog yourself down in a hopeless tangle of
contradictions.  All RPGs have this problem, but in Traveller (and the TML
in particular) its agravated by the collective knowledge of the scientists,
lawyers, soldiers, engineers, economists, historians, etc., that this game
tends to draw.

The TML is often interesting, educational, and just a hoot to read - but
perspective *occasionally* runs in short supply.  :)

Cheers,
Kurtis

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 00:00:38 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: I like missiles

Yeah, thawed.  The Brits borrowed the United States' chicken cannon for
testing the state of the art windshields of some high speed train (the
Chunnel Train maybe?) and were absolutely apalled when the chicken went
through the windshield, the operator's seat, and the bulkhead behind that.
Horrified, they contacted the Americans, who quickly realized the problem in
that the Brits were useing frozen chickens.  The cannon uses *thawed*
chickens :)

Jesse



> Thawed birds, I think.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 23:33:43 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

>>>TL 15+ Rob, TL 15+ (with heaps of documentary evidence to
>>>prove that they are)
>>
>>"Which I am not going to show you for reasons only I know"
>>(Leroy the Great)
>
>"Although rest assured I have had tea with the Kieth Brothers, Marc Miller,
>*and* Pope John Paul II, and they all agree with my
>enlightened-yet-inscrutable knowledge."
The RoM TL attitude of Leroy always reminded me of a scene from the BritCom
Blackadder:
"Here, of Crone, is a bag of moneys..."
holding it out to her
"which i am not going to give you", pulling it back...

Although you really could discuss other topics with him, and I had great
dealings with him. In that respect, he was very reliable to ship the items
on time and in excellent conditon at reasonable prices (Got most of my
boxed games like mayday, asteroid and snapshot from Leroy).
I just say this so newer arrivals don´t only get to see his bad side. He
was annoying, yes, but one could get along with him...

Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 02:42:33 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Missiles

At 06:34 PM 6/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>Note 1: EAPlaC doesn't have a "maximum" thrust like other rockets
>but instead a minimum thurst (so you don't need 4 seperate
>rockets.)

  Thanks wasn't clear (still ain't) on that, so I'll just put one.

>
>Note 2: You've multiplied fuel consumptions wrong.
>Four hundred tonnes thrust * 0.3 m3/tonne/hr = 120 m3 per hour.
>(The 0.225 is a typo, but the big thing is you've dropped a ten.)
>So your missile has an endurance of 2 G-turns, not 22...

 Ok I change the .225 to .3 and get (By doing it the way the book says)
FC x Thr /2= FCR or 100 x 0.3 = 30 / 2 = 15. So the FCR is 15 instead of
11.25 which would make the fuel endurance 2.386/15 = 0.159 and the     
G-turns would be 105.4 x 0.16 = 16 Or am I still doing it wrong?

>
>On the other hand, the image recognition system seems to big.
>

 I agree and me friend also (he worked weapons on A-10's) says that it is
way too heavy for a High Tech system.

>Also - for proper calculations of missile perfomance there's a more
>accurate formula that takes into account the way the missiles'
>mass changes with time. You can find it on various web sites
>(Joe's leaps to mind...); the basic form is something like
>G-turns = 1/FC * ln(Mf), where Mf is the "mass fraction" - ratio of
>loaded weight to weight without fuel - and ln is the natural log -
>but don't quote me; look it up.
>
>At TL-14 you can get awe-inspiring performance out of HEPlaR missiles;
>expensive but much better than EAPlaC. Still not good enough to
>get past good point defence, of course.

 Isn't HEPlaR that gravity plate thing?

>
>Bruce
>


 Thanks for the help
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #730
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 10 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 731



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Naval crew turnover (slightly OT)
Chicken Cannon Urban Myths
Fw: FIFTH FRONTIER WAR on E-Bay
Re: Reference to PDL's
Re: Guns in Vacuum
Re: Frozen watch...
Re: Missles and Mirrors
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Re CD-Roms and Dual Platforms
Re: ST Ship Displacements
Re: Ship-building
Re: Earth Tech
Re: Reference to PDL's
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Missiles vs PDL
Re: Chicken Cannon Urban Myths
Re: Computer tech in 3I
Re: Present Day Virus
Re: Ship-building

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:35:56 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Naval crew turnover (slightly OT)

At 10:21 09/06/1999 -0700, Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net> wrote:

<snip>

>While visiting the Intrepid Sea-Air-Space museum last
>summer, I noted a plaque on the island of the carrier
>listing the ship's 20-odd skippers during its 40-odd 
>years of active service. I was surprised to see that 
>rapid a turnover; I'd have thought that it would be
>more efficient to keep the same commander for closer 
>to 5 years or so. 
>
>Is a 2-year turnover of command typical for USN vessels?

I'm only guessing but I'd think it sounds about right.

From the career progression point of view, if you want people
to command the Navy before they retire, then they need to be
able to reach O10 in at most ten terms (that's still a
retirement date of 72.)

At one promotion per term, then either your captains are
going to only have served on and commanded one ship, or
it will be more like first officer on a Gazelle followed
by commanding a small SDB in one term, and so on, through
first officer in a battleship followed by captain of a
battle tender in a later term.

So 2 years sounds about right. For the real high flyers,
about 1 year (since they are getting more than one promotion
per year if you want those Grand Admirals) and a bit longer
for people who are going to retire as captain.

<snip>

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:44:18 +0100
From: Ashley Munday <Ashley.Munday@liffe.com>
Subject: Chicken Cannon Urban Myths

1. British Rail never borrowed an American cannon - they used one at the
Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) in Farnborough in the late 70s to test
prototype high speed trains.

2. The story they tell at the RAE is that they loaned it to British
Aerospace which used frozen chickens on a engine.

3. My British Aerospace contact tells me that this is crap as they have
their own "cluck and fuck" which was borrowed by the Australian government,
whom - guess what - used frozen chickens in it.

As far as I can tell, the worst chicken cannon disaster was a freezer
failiure over a hot weekend that stank out the hanger for weeks. There again
my British Aerospace contact tells me the same story as happening at BAE
Weybridge...

On a related topic, has anyone got any good 3I urban myths? Like Vargr
always driving with their heads stuck out the window.

Ash

===========================================
Aescleal

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1853/

Home: ashley@geocities.com OR ashleym@telinco.co.uk
Work: ashley.munday@liffe.com

=========================================== 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 18:15:09 +0800
From: "Colin aka Arkham aka the God King" <astroboy@iinet.net.au>
Subject: Fw: FIFTH FRONTIER WAR on E-Bay

- ----- Original Message ----- 
From: John Kovalic <john@kovalic.com>
Newsgroups: sjgames.gurps.traveller
Sent: Tuesday, June 08, 1999 10:56 PM
Subject: FIFTH FRONTIER WAR on E-Bay


> Would someone mind forwarding this to the Traveller Mailing list?
> 
> The rare, classic Traveller boardgame!
> 
> The box shows wear, as GDW boxes are won to do, but the components are 
> *great*, and the pieces are unpunched!
> 
> To find it on eBay, go to:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=115098953
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> John Kovalic
> 
>      *********************************************************
>            OUT NOW! DORK TOWER #4, including the FREE
>      CHEAPASS GAME, "Escape From Dork Tower," by James Ernest!
>      *********************************************************
>   'TOON CENTRAL: http://www.kovalic.com   e-mail: john@kovalic.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 22:23:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Reference to PDL's

In mail you write:

>>= 378,000 ms-1 or 378 km s-1, or ~1.3% lightspeed.
>
>   Wow That's fast, now I'm gonna have to revise my Short Story again.

He dropped a decimal point. The speed of light is ~300,000 km/sec. So
378 km/sec is 0.126% lightspeed.

>>Which gives the missile 0.5 x 3.9 x (378,000)^2 J = 278,624 MJ.....
>>if it collides....

>   We have always assumed (Maybe incorrectly) that by the time we develop
> Inter Planetary travel with any degree of safety, there would be new armor
> that would protect from kinetic damage (Or lessen it).

Not terribly likely. It's not the sort of thing armor helps with. For
micrometeorites, a layer of foil set from 30 to 100 cm away from the
actual hull will do wonders. The small stuff will hit it and vaporize,
but the fireball won't be big enough to reach the hull. 

> I figured in Traveller since we have something that negates Inertia
> it would be reasonable to assume that it would be used to lower the
> effectiveness of Kinetic weapons (Hence the nuke). Because I always
> thought Inertia is the primary part of the equation for Kinetic energy.

Inertia is *mass*. The velocity term is the one that gets nasty. 

But in any case, you are starting from an incorrect assumption.
Traveller does *not* have the ability to to do *anything* to inertia.
What it has is the ability to negate some portion of acceleration
forces. That's *not* the same thing. 

If you could negate inertia, even partially, the effects would apply at
*all* accelerations. And when you turned it off, you'd assume a
velocity based on your original vector, plus a *percentage* of the
changes made under partial neutralization. With total neutralization,
it'd work just like in the Lensman stories. You'd resume the exact
vector you had when you you'd engaged the neutralizer. 

But in Traveller, we merely have artificial gravity, which like gravity
only produces apparent acceleration forces when being *resisted*
(because it acts on every particle equally). So the g-comp is nothing
more than an artificial gravity field tied to the engines such that it
neutralizes the apparent thrust. 

So, for example, if the drive is pushing you "down" against the floor
with 2 gs, the g-comp field is pulling you *up* with 2gs. Or only 1 g
in ships with decks at right angles to the thrust axis.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 22:41:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Guns in Vacuum

In mail you write:

> There are actually three different factors to the question: Will a 
> slug-throwing weapon fire in space?
>
>  -Vacuum: as answered by numerous others; the lack of oxygen will hamper the 
> operation of the ammunition. Vacuum-welding my also occur over longer 
> exposures.

The propellant won't be affected unless it contains volatile
components that might evaporate.

Vacuum welding can (mostly) be treated by the right choice of lubricant
an materials. In a vacuum, gold plating acts as a lubricant...

Also, presence of "normal" lubricants can be a problem. Some oils will
evaporate, others will turn into sticky gunk. Graphite becomes an
*abrasive* in a vacuum.

>  -Zero-G:  recoil is rarely your friend...
>
>  -Temperature: The extreme cold of space can adversely affect the metal of 
> the weapon.

Space does not *have* a temperature. It is neither cold nor hot,
because it has no *substance* to *be* cold or hot.

An object in shadow can cool fairly quickly and to fairly low temps. An
object in direct sunlight can get quite hot. 

At, say, -150 C a gun may not be safe to fire. At +150 C, it may fire
on its own.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 23:05:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Frozen watch...

In mail you write:

> The Roc wrote:
>
>> I'd think there would be an upper limit.  Imagine being in FW for
>> 10-years say, and when you awaken, all your buddies have changed
>> greatly, family have died, your children don't know you, laws have
>> been changed, you missed the last two Star Wars sequels, your
>> favourite TV show has been cancelled, etc.

> Or imagine all your buddies are dead.
> Your family is dead.
> Your homeworld is a burning husk.
> Everyone you touch seems to die.
> You have some unwanted knack for survival, but it won't protect
> your friends and allies.
> You don't want to kill yourself, but you don't want to make new friends
> or start over.  You're sure you'll just lose the new friends as well.
> But you're damned good at what you do.
>
> "Wake me when you think its hopeless, Captain.
> Otherwise, I'll kill you.  If its 20 years from now,
> fine with me."
>  - anonymous Frozen Watch Voluneteer

I rather expect that the pysch profiles for a lot of FW personnel are
more than a little "questionable" for any other duty.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 23:13:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Missles and Mirrors

In mail you write:

> If preserving the integrity of reflectivity of a mirror-surfaced missle
> (during handling, firing, etc.) is a concern, then how about layering the
> mirror under some other coating, ablative or not?  Even if both layers
> eventually get ripped by the PDL, might not they prolong the average
> missile's life enough that a barrage becomes useful? 

A mirror layer that is covered by a non-mirror layer is no longer of
any use. The laser will dump energy into the overlying layer, and when
a spot on that layer explodes it'll take the mirror coating with it. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 23:20:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

In mail you write:

> I have on my office wall a cute little poster from NASA-Ames entitled "Why
> do I need a space suit?"  It goes over all the relevant effects of vacuum
> exposure.  The points touched on are Oxygen, Pressure, Radiation
> Protection, Protection from Debris, and Thermal Insulation.

How would one go about ordering one of these posters?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 23:27:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

In mail you write:

>>Its only comic relief if there is some dramatic tension to be relieved.
>>I also have to agree with the criticism that he/it is a new Steppin Fetchit.
>
>    We could argue that point.  Sounds like I should be happy I was spared
> "Steppin Fetchit" however...

"Steppin Fetchit" is a generic name for the cowardly, stupid, *black*
character in all too many old films. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 23:31:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re CD-Roms and Dual Platforms

In mail you write:

> Some dual platforms are using a 3 partition method:
> partition A: MS-Dos (for application, Docs, and DLL's)
> partition B: MacOS (application, docs, extensions, cdevs, and libraries)
> partition C: ISO-9660 or other mutually readable, otherwise hidden
> partitions for the actual run-time bulk data.
>
> Macs can read some MS-Dos CD-Roms for data files; specifics vary. I know,
> cause I've done so. With the right extension, one can even look through an
> APPLE II Prodos CD.

Would a Mac user please binhex a MacDraw file and MacPaint file and
send them to me? I want to see which of my programs on the PC will be
able to read them. I'll also dump them to my old MacPlus and try
transferring them to the PC via ZTerm, just to see if the formats wind
up different. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 23:36:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: ST Ship Displacements

In mail you write:

> At 12:51 AM 6/8/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net> writes:
>>> So what I was wondering, does anyone know the Displacement Value for these
>>>Original series ships?
>>
>>>From (1)
>>
>>>  Constellation class Heavy Cruiser (Same as the 1701 Enterprise)
>>
>>Constitution Class XI - 160 to 180 mt
>>
>>>  Romulan War bird
>>
>>Romulan Bird of Prey Class VI Cruiser - 60 - 80 mt
>>
>>>  Klingon D7 Cruiser (Battle cruiser from the Original series)
>>
>>D7A Paingiver Class VIII Cruiser - 100 to 120 mt
>>
>>I assume these are MegaTonnes (ie 1,000,000 metric tonne units)
>>
>>>From (2) 50 metric tonnes = 1 SCU (standard cargo unit) = 6.75m3 =
>>1.5m*1.5m*3m
>>
>>1 mt = 20,000 SCU = 135,000m3
>>
>>I leave the rest to your calculator... ;-)
>
>   Why are they so Huge? I know they were much bigger then the standard Star
> ships for traveller but not that big.
> Hmmm

Ever get a look at the old Franz Joseph Designs blueprints for the
Enterprise? There's a *lot* of ship there.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 23:40:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Ship-building

In mail you write:

> As for number 3, the lanthanum, it gives a very good reason why a world
> capable of making starships in a pocket empire must conquer new worlds, to
> obtain lanthanum to build newer (and bigger) starships. You may want to
> consider a lanthanum factor based on the world size and density, being how
> much can be mined per year. Its consumption would be linked to Jump Drive
> mass (i.e. we only dig enough lanthanum to build 1000 tons of jump drives a
> year, do we build one jump-3 25,000 ton battlecruiser or 2 jump-4 10,000
> ton heavy cruisers? Planet X has lanthanum? Great, hang on while I embark
> my infantry division.....)

A few interesting details about lanthanum from the CRC handbook:

It reacts slowly with cold water and fairly rapidly with hot water.
It's soft enough to cut with a knife. It's currently about $2/*gram*.
It changes crystal structure at 310 C, and again at 865 C.

It occurs in the Earth's crust at an average of 39 mg/kg. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 01:11:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Earth Tech

In mail you write:

>>The Computer Technology thread has pointed out some interesting
>>things.
>>
>>Our computer technology, and perhaps several other technologies
>>at the present day have exceeded the expectations of Traveller Tech
>>level. We've gone nowhere, AFAIK, in the field of anti-gravity.
>
> Manipulation of gravity requires enormous energies per General Relativity.
> If we could mass produce micro black holes of a couple gigatons each, we
> might have a shot at creating "antigravity".
>
> More or less, the energy required to recreate a 1G field is on the order of
> the Earth's mass-energy equivalent. If you wanted to create a smaller
> gravitational field over a smaller area, it is less, but you are still
> considering several megatons of mass energy to do so.

Actually, it only takes a million tons or so to generate a 1 g field
*over a limited area*. For one thing, the field of a flat plate doesn't
drop off via inverse square until the distance from the plate is almost
as great as the diameter of said plate. 

And this is using Newtonian techniques and "brute force". There may be
ways of "finessing" the problem that take much less energy.


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 22:14:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Reference to PDL's

In mail you write:

> MK VIII Heavy Missile =93Shadow=94=20
> TL:14
> Warhead: Nuclear 100 kt Yield.                          Mass:   72kg
> Propulsion: EAPlaC SF Rocket 4 x 599kg (400 tns trust)   Mass: 2386kg
> Guidance: Seeker (Image Recognition)                    Mass: 1000kg
> Sensors: Passive EMS 60K range  Proc Vol:0.4             Mass:  800kg=20
>          Ant Diam: 5m Ant Area: 0.6 m2 Ant Vol: 0.03     Mass:   30kg
> ECM: EMM    Vol: 1.40 m3  Rad: 0.7 m2                    Mass:  700kg
> Average Mass:       3.795 tons
> G Rating:   400 / 3.795 =3D 105.4
> Fuel Consumption:  11.25 m3 per hour (this is where we have probs)
> Fuel Endurance:   2.386 / 11.25 =3D 0.212
> G Turns:  105.4 x 0.212 =3D 22.3 (round to 22)
> Max Gs per Turn: 22

The two problems I see are these. First, that 5 meter antenna is going
to make the missile *horribly* easy to detect *and* it'll be a major
weakness, as it'll be way too easy to damage.

Second, you could pretty much skip the nuke warhead. Once the missile
reaches ~500 km/s its kinetic energy is just as high as the energy
released by the warhead.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 04:52:36
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

At 11:20 PM 6/9/99 PST, you wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> I have on my office wall a cute little poster from NASA-Ames entitled "Why
>> do I need a space suit?"  It goes over all the relevant effects of vacuum
>> exposure.  The points touched on are Oxygen, Pressure, Radiation
>> Protection, Protection from Debris, and Thermal Insulation.
>
>How would one go about ordering one of these posters?

Hmmm.. I got mine as a freebie at the San Mateo County fair, after seeing
Weird Al perform.  I'd imagine that these were produced as part of a school
education project.

It has a GPO number 1995-685-749. but the GPO website doesn't seem to
believe in it.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:59:03 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Missiles vs PDL

At 10:33 09/06/1999 -0500, Steve Lieb <steve@necadon.com> wrote:

>	[[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  right, i ignored that to simplify the
>example.  to compensate for velocity you need a minimum of 2 plots over
>time to determine direction and distance over that "time".  that IS
>easy.  but what if the target ship is employing a random vector
>adjustment WHILE traveling along a curve?  it's rare that a ship would
>travel in a straight line (even in microgravity), and then you need a
>significant series of plots over time to establish a curve, which can be
>altered easily at any time by the target simply slightly changing their
>thrust, yes?

Nope. Just two points will do. For a start, recording all your targets
previous evasion just confuses the issue (unless you need to estimate
their performance or see if they are using "evasion pattern delta".)
Secondly, the effect of microgravity can be ignored. Since the argument
is that 10G or even 1,000G is not enough for a contact missile to evade,
0.001G of microgravity won't matter. Any significant gravity due to
stars and planets can be calculated and allowed for (a planet
isn't like to take off in a random direction in the next second!)

Two points close together won't determine your target's vector exactly
(it tends to underestimate the effect of any acceleration between
the points) but if the two points are close enough together in time,
it won't matter much.

>	my point, anyway, was first that passive sensors might be more
>accurate given the circumstances,

Not true if you are referring to lightspeed lag. You don't care about
the time it takes the active sensor pulse to reach the target, just as
long as when it returns, you know which pulse you sent.

>... and that the "realistic" system in
>mantis was only realistic in the representation of ship's motions.  i
>have yet to see a space combat simulation that seriously addresses the
>difficulties in sensing/engaging targets at the 50,000km+ ranges that
>are relatively frequently discussed for such conflict.

One comment from the "Lasers always hit" side of the fence:

When calculating the automatic kill range, I'm willing to accept the
concept of a 50G missile that accelerates perpendicular to my line of
sight at 50G in a constant random direction for the full duration of
the time between my sensor pulse hitting it and my laser hitting it,
(presumably after an instantaneous turn).

This is the laser's "worst case scenario".

However, to claim that the missile always knows when to change
acceleration (if it detects another sensor pulse, it knows not to
evade because the PD laser pulse is already on its way), and
that it can do this whilst accelerating on an intercept vector
(which won't be direcly towards me) at 50G and pointing the armoured,
reflective, sensor array towards me and the emissionless engine
and radiators away from me.

Continuously for half an hour or more (or at least for the couple of
seconds during that time that I decide to fire at it).

All in a 10cm diameter sphere.

It's a bit much.

So if lasers don't reach their theoretical potential,
I don't expect missiles will either.

And if you think that missiles have problems, try evading with a fighter
or a battleship!

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 22:31:56 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Chicken Cannon Urban Myths

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ashley Munday <Ashley.Munday@liffe.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, 10 June 1999 7:48
Subject: Chicken Cannon Urban Myths


>1. British Rail never borrowed an American cannon - they used one at the
>Royal Aircraft Establishment (RAE) in Farnborough in the late 70s to test
>prototype high speed trains.
>
>2. The story they tell at the RAE is that they loaned it to British
>Aerospace which used frozen chickens on a engine.
>
>3. My British Aerospace contact tells me that this is crap as they have
>their own "cluck and fuck" which was borrowed by the Australian government,
>whom - guess what - used frozen chickens in it.
>

Well, I was talking to an Aussie Army Engineering Officer that I know, about
this thread and he told me we never had such a thing in Australia "Thank
goodness!", but the (quote) "Poms did borrow one off the Yanks and used
frozen chickens like thay say (the list), did a bloody hell of a lot of
damage to the test vehicles, but discovered quite a lot about solid shot
effects on them." (unquote).

He produced an engineering mag with a small side bar about it, didn't go
into much detail though.

>As far as I can tell, the worst chicken cannon disaster was a freezer
>failiure over a hot weekend that stank out the hanger for weeks. There
again
>my British Aerospace contact tells me the same story as happening at BAE
>Weybridge...
>
>On a related topic, has anyone got any good 3I urban myths? Like Vargr
>always driving with their heads stuck out the window.
>
>Ash
>

But I'm willing to believe it is Urban Legend

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 05:24:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Computer tech in 3I

In mail you write:

> StarShade wrote:
>
>> I have been toying with an idea about the x-boat ships in my universe...
>> Does anyone know what speed and bandwidth one can get from a laser. I was
>> trying to design the X-Boat so that after it entered the system it would
>> open up its conical shaped frame and present an extractable umbrella like
>> dish with the ship being the center structure - I was hoping I could get
>> a area radius of about 700 meters or more. Would this speed up
>> communications and maybe allow a wider laser beam to the
>> sending/recieving station on the world.
>
> I'm not sure anyone knows the maximum bandwidth down a laser. There are loads
> of physical limits to lasers, but there may be many ways to increse the 
> bandwidth.
>
> Take the humble analog phone line in the UK. The physical limit you can drive
> the line at it 3 k. Not a lot of bandwidth realy. But you then take this
> humble 3 k and you do all sorts of jigery pokery with the signal and add some
> compression that the nice people a Hays/USR/Motorola came up with and they
> manage to get 56 k bandwidth. It probably won't stop there. So your gess to
> the amount of bandwidth you can pump down a laser is as good as anyones.

Actually, you've got that wrong. The bandwith is still only 3 kHz. But
they can get a *data rate* of up to 28,800 down that. The 56k is
playing digital games, so the rules are a bit different. But it's still
dealing with a *bandwidth* of less than 4kHz. 

Shannon's law gives the relationship between bandwidth, data rate and
signal to noise ratio. It's a fixed relationship, and we've hit the
hard limits, at least for phone lines.

The laser? Well, first you have to figure what the bandwidth is, and
then consider the modulation a bit. Even so, a huge "dish" won't help
that much. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 05:37:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Present Day Virus

In mail you write:

> The lifts in our office block are showing all the signs of a virus infection.
> They change direction at whim, stop at floors that no-one has requested, and
> just yesterday they wouldn't let anyone into the building at all. It's almost
> like they're sentient, and are starting to see what trouble they can cause.
>
>  At least they haven't killed anyone - yet.    ; - )
>
> <obtrav> Has anyone else got a story about virus-like behaviour from
> present-day inanimate objects. No, I'm not paranoid. I don't think
> virus has arrived yet. I just want to harvest a few anecdotes to tell
> my players about the sorts of things that could happen when virus
> hits town.

Dig thru back issues of the digest version of comp.risks. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:35:03 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Ship-building

Bryn Monnery wrote:
> 
<<snip>>

> [Lanthanum] consumption would be linked to Jump Drive
> mass (i.e. we only dig enough lanthanum to build 1000 tons of jump drives a
> year, do we build one jump-3 25,000 ton battlecruiser or 2 jump-4 10,000
> ton heavy cruisers? Planet X has lanthanum? Great, hang on while I embark
> my infantry division.....)

_Everyone_ knows that the primary resource on Planet X is Alludium
Phosdex, the shaving cream molecule....
(See "Duck Dodgers in the 24th-and-a-half Century" for details.)

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #731
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 10 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 732



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Superluminal Mesons (was Re: Space Combat Weapontry)
RE: Star Trek ships
Frozen Avian Caveat
Re: Missiles
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #731
Re: SJ Games News: New Triplanetary Counters
Re: Present Day Virus
Biological space vessels
Temperature of Space (was Re: Guns in Vacuum)
Re: ST Ship Displacements
Re: Biological space vessels
Re: Biological space vessels
Re: Earth Tech
Jump Speed Time Chart
Imperial Calendar Question
RE: Biological space vessels

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:02:18 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Superluminal Mesons (was Re: Space Combat Weapontry)

Kurt Feltenberger posted:

>At 01:33 PM 6/9/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>>Do you have to predict when the particles will fail if you have
>>> the meson gun project a field in which they will fail?
>>
>>You've got the wrong point of view, which is the classical one.
>>
>>Classical physics says property A can be predicted based upon
equations to
>>arbitrary accuracy. In principle, if you knew all the initial
conditions
>>(mass, spin, charge, parity, etc.) you could predict where it will end
up
>>in the future.
>>
>>The classical view is wrong. Quantum Mechanics has shown for the last
70
>>years that, at the heart of it, all things are indeterminate. You
cannot
>>predict exactly the value of property A, but only give statistical
>>correlation for its various states.
>>
>>In other words,

<snip>

>This is extremely interesting and far beyond my basic college Physics
>courses.  I think I need a beer and an asprin.  (Mommy, my head
hurts...)  ;-)
>
>This _is_ really cool stuff.

See? See?

It hurts when a mind is stretched and snaps back.

But...

.there's something about that little sting...  :-P

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:17:30 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Star Trek ships

Leonard Erickson writes:
">   Why are they so Huge? I know they were much bigger 
	then the standard Star
> ships for traveller but not that big.
> Hmmm

Ever get a look at the old Franz Joseph Designs blueprints for the
Enterprise? There's a *lot* of ship there."

	That depends on what you mean by a *lot* of ship. I am not
	familiar with Mr. Joseph, but the saucer section is listed 
	as 127 m in diameter. With an average thickness of 20 m,
	this would make the saucer section 253,354 m^3, which
	is 18,767 Traveller displacement tons. If the whole vessel
	is 50,000 dtons, that is a *lot* of ship, particularly if 
	you realize that very little of it is fuel. However, it is 
	only 3% of the 1,600,000 tons suggested in the previous 
	post (if my clculations are correct).

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:17:04 +0100
From: Ashley Munday <Ashley.Munday@liffe.com>
Subject: Frozen Avian Caveat

The point I was making about the chicken cannon was that (perhaps) never in
the field of human conflict has a chicken, frozen out it's freezer been
fired at something. [It's a bit like the Spiderman fetishist ravishing the
villainess.] There again, knowing how daft engineers are should we be
surprised??

Here's another military myth for your delectation:

THE DROP BEAR
=============

This is a type of Koala that falls on people and knocks them unconscious.
The current Australian army say that this a 1980's invention from an
American tank commander that twatted a branch while going topside for a look
during an exercise.

However, my Grandfather told me the same story about his experiences in
Australia during WWII, where a pilot with his canopy open was "dropped" by a
Koala while taxiing and crashed. After that, any indigenous (probably not
spelt correctly!) Oz wildlife was machine-gunned by gullible rock apes.

Ash

===========================================
Aescleal

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1853/

Home: ashley@geocities.com OR ashleym@telinco.co.uk
Work: ashley.munday@liffe.com

=========================================== 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 07:39:59 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Missiles

>>Note 2: You've multiplied fuel consumptions wrong.
>>Four hundred tonnes thrust * 0.3 m3/tonne/hr = 120 m3 per hour.
>>(The 0.225 is a typo, but the big thing is you've dropped a ten.)
>>So your missile has an endurance of 2 G-turns, not 22...
>Ok I change the .225 to .3 and get (By doing it the way the book says)
>FC x Thr /2= FCR or 100 x 0.3 = 30 / 2 = 15. So the FCR is 15 instead of
>11.25 which would make the fuel endurance 2.386/15 = 0.159 and the
>G-turns would be 105.4 x 0.16 = 16 Or am I still doing it wrong?

I've dropped the previous message, but the thrust on the thing was 400 tonnes,
wasn't it? (All four "engines" together). So the fuel consumption per turn
is 0.3 x 400 / 2 = 60 tonnes per turn.

>>On the other hand, the image recognition system seems to big.
>>
>I agree and me friend also (he worked weapons on A-10's) says that it is
>way too heavy for a High Tech system.
What I meant was, I think you read the chart wrong, and it should be 1 kg,
not 1 tonne.

>>At TL-14 you can get awe-inspiring performance out of HEPlaR missiles;
>>expensive but much better than EAPlaC. Still not good enough to
>>get past good point defence, of course.
>Isn't HEPlaR that gravity plate thing?
HEPlaR is a sort of super-advanced fusion rocket described in FFS.
Needs a (fusion) power plant.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:45:37 -0500
From: Steve Lieb <steve@necadon.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #731

> >example.  to compensate for velocity you need a minimum of 2 plots over
> >time to determine direction and distance over that "time".  that IS
> >easy.  but what if the target ship is employing a random vector
> >adjustment WHILE traveling along a curve?  it's rare that a ship would
> >travel in a straight line (even in microgravity), and then you need a
> >significant series of plots over time to establish a curve, which can be
> >altered easily at any time by the target simply slightly changing their
> >thrust, yes?
> 
> Nope. Just two points will do. For a start, recording all your targets
> previous evasion just confuses the issue (unless you need to estimate
> their performance or see if they are using "evasion pattern delta".)
> Secondly, the effect of microgravity can be ignored. Since the argument
> is that 10G or even 1,000G is not enough for a contact missile to evade,
> 0.001G of microgravity won't matter. Any significant gravity due to
> stars and planets can be calculated and allowed for (a planet
> isn't like to take off in a random direction in the next second!)
	[[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  I must be failing my "communicate ideas"
rolls badly.
	1) i was saying that "it's rare a ship would travel in a straight
line (even in microgravity)" - meaning, that in a gravity well ships would
typically be moving in curves, but i postulated that exactly *because*
non-constant curves complicate targetting so much i would think ships in any
possible danger of being fired at would typically move in such curves
whether they were in gravity or not.  this was not to bring it up in terms
of targeting at all (directly).

> Two points close together won't determine your target's vector exactly
> (it tends to underestimate the effect of any acceleration between
> the points) but if the two points are close enough together in time,
> it won't matter much.
	[[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  I don't believe so.  I give you two
points.  You can tell me what curve I'm taking between those two points?  I
really don't think so - theoretically it's an infinite number of
possibilities, functionally of course there are fewer depending on the
vehicles acceleration potential, but still a LOT.  I give you three, four ,
even five points.  Yes, the closer together these points are in time
functionally limits the number of curves I can manage to fit through them
all, but there's still quite a few solutions.  And the closer together the
points are will only have validity if the time between sensor contacts (call
them c1, c2, c3, etc) and weapon termination (meaning specifically the time
the projectile/energy/whatever arrives on TARGET, not the firing of said
weapon) are relatively similar.  For example, if your sensor is sampling 10
times per second (so c1 is at t=.1, c2 is at t=.2) then the weapon arrival
time better also be around .1 from the last c or the firing solution as a
function of the previous c points it effectively useless.  By the time you
get an order of magnitude difference, there's no way a sensor can be useful.


> >	my point, anyway, was first that passive sensors might be more
> >accurate given the circumstances,
> 
> Not true if you are referring to lightspeed lag. You don't care about
> the time it takes the active sensor pulse to reach the target, just as
> long as when it returns, you know which pulse you sent.
	[[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  Accurate might be the wrong word.  Useful
is better.  Imagine: two ships pop into existence 1 light second apart.
Which one is going to get info about the other quicker - the one with active
sensors or passive sensors?  

> However, to claim that the missile always knows when to change
> acceleration (if it detects another sensor pulse, it knows not to
> evade because the PD laser pulse is already on its way), and
> that it can do this whilst accelerating on an intercept vector
> (which won't be direcly towards me) at 50G and pointing the armoured,
> reflective, sensor array towards me and the emissionless engine
> and radiators away from me.
> Continuously for half an hour or more (or at least for the couple of
> seconds during that time that I decide to fire at it).
> All in a 10cm diameter sphere.
> It's a bit much.
> 
	[[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  But wait.  Maybe I'm a dope but let's
scale this down a little.  Assume the missle has 5g acceleration laterally
(IMO if I'm designing a missile that's got 50g accel, I'm going to use MOST
of that for closing to the target to minimize the time in flight simply to
reduce exposure to target countermeasures and tracking difficulty) if 1g is
10m/s^2, then isn't 5g 50m/s^2?  I know this is a curve, but for
simplicity's sake can we assume the missile could then be "jinking" around
3m in .1 seconds?  This seems like a HUGE amount for a defense targetting
system to compensate for.
	And why would the missile need to detect an incoming pulse to try to
evade point-defense?  Wouldn't it be simpler just to randomize the evasion
program to increase to "max evaseiveness" meaning maximum jitter at, oh, say
1 light second from target?
	Personally, I see with the time-lag due to sensors, and the
evasiveness of missiles, point-defense systems are not going to work much
differently in Traveller than in the modern RW.  The incoming missile has a
theoretical maximum arc change over time.  The point defense object to FILL
this circle of possible future points with damaging fire.  Thats all - it's
like shooting with a shotgun.  You try to put the maximum concentration of
shot where you expect the target could be.
	Lasers have an advantage in this role since their rate of fire can
be so high.


	I have one other tangential question: are the thrusters on a ship
typically uniform in distribution?  I mean, in Mayday for example, a 2g ship
could alter it's future position by 2 hex in any direction.  I guess I would
not imagine that this is the maximum utility for the placement of these
thrusters.  As long as the ship can decelerate minimally (1g) I would
imagine MOST ships would direct most of the thrust backward, since in a
pinch you can spin the ship to use that thrust to stop if you have to. To
use a better example, a 4g civilian courier wouldn't have that much need for
lateral acceleration, and put "1g" thrusters to fore, starboard and port,
but put the rest of the thrust to aft.  Doesn't that make more sense?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 08:11:15 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: SJ Games News: New Triplanetary Counters

>   Okay, all you patient Triplanetary fans . . . Winchell Chung has created
>   a new and improved counter set, which you can download as a GIF file.
>   There are counters here for variant units as well as the classic ones.
>
>Related Links:
>  1. http://www.sjgames.com/triplan/
>  2. http://www.sjgames.com/triplan/counters.html

  These would also likely work nicely (for the most part) for Mayday -
especially the lifeboat/shuttle. At worst you trim the combat(defense
only) factor from the graphic before printing.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:31:07 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Present Day Virus

- -----Original Message-----
From: Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au <Graeme_Batho@agd.nsw.gov.au>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 2:09 AM
Subject: Present Day Virus


>The lifts in our office block are showing all the signs of a virus
infection.
>They change direction at whim, stop at floors that no-one has requested,
and
>just yesterday they wouldn't let anyone into the building at all. It's
almost
>like they're sentient, and are starting to see what trouble they can cause.
>
> At least they haven't killed anyone - yet.    ; - )


Actually there was a darkly humorous horror film a few years back called
"The Lift" about... a murderous malfunctioning elevator. Although completely
improbable it was humorous. Should be required viewing for anyone running a
campaign in the Virus era.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:46:08 -0400
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
Subject: Biological space vessels

Hi All,

I've been wondering if any traveller alien life forms existed which
possessed any of the following abilities:

  Contra-Grav
  Radio Frequency comunnication
  Deep Space survivability.  

Basically, I'm looking to explore the idea of a race of "biological"
space vessels. The trouble I keep having is coming up with a remotely
plausible evolutionary pressure to evolve these capabilities. Engineered
life forms, maybe.

When I was in high school, I added a race IMTU called the Kyeth which
were slow hulks with weak contragrav ability. They matured in gas giants
and eventually were able to slowly travel the local stellar system.
Extremely long lived, they filtered the dust of moons and asteriod and
concentrated rare elements iinto crystalline organs to achieve the "high
tech" abilities.

Eventually, I created an alien civilization which drifted through the
system living on these migrating creatures like barnacles on a whale.

It is kind of embarrasing to read through my first attempts at campaign
creation. I just found my notes in box of gaming stuff and was wondering
if anything was salvagable from these ideas. <Given the science used in
movies, probably a screenplay>

Anyone else want to share an early campaign item they thought was very
cool and are now a bit ashamed of?


Glenn

______________________________________________________

Glenn E. Myers
ANSYS Inc.                Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (724) 514-2913
Canonsburg, PA 15317      Fax:   (724) 514-3118
______________________________________________________
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 09:40:01 -0700
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Temperature of Space (was Re: Guns in Vacuum)

>Space does not *have* a temperature. It is neither cold nor hot,
>because it has no *substance* to *be* cold or hot.

The universe has a background radiation field of 3K temperature (microwave
frequency). You have a limited view of the vacuum, in that you expect that
the presence or absence of mass constitutes it.

In fact, there is a photon field (given above), a neutrino field, cosmic
rays, and the odd hydrogen atom at densities which vary dependent upon your
region.

The temperature near Jupiter is up to 700 million degrees due to plasma
fields and complex magnetic interactions of that planet. Plasma
temperatures are outside our realm of experience because we usually do not
directly experience them. (A flourescent light makes use of a 20,000K
plasma, for example.) The heat transfer capacity of the Jovian plasma field
is not high compared with our normal experience, but it is inaccurate to
say there is no temperature there.

The problem of a vacuum is one of the last problems of physics, because
even if you could perfectly isolate a patch of space from photons,
neutrinos, mass, cosmic rays, etc. there are still virtual particles
present (via the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle). Furthermore, there is a
quantum zero point energy that, depending upon the theory, arises from the
Cosmological Constant.

>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

- --Adam

acgetchell@ucdavis.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 12:48:29 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: Re: ST Ship Displacements

 >Ever get a look at the old Franz Joseph Designs blueprints for the
 >Enterprise? There's a *lot* of ship there.

Including the bowling alley.  No, I'm not kidding.



- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:55:35 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Biological space vessels

Well,  2300 AD has the pentapods which were a race that engineered
themselves to suit the task.
They wanted star travel, they grew pentapods who where starships.
If you need more info or anything contact me off list.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com' <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 10:45 AM
Subject: Biological space vessels


>Hi All,
>
>I've been wondering if any traveller alien life forms existed which
>possessed any of the following abilities:
>
>  Contra-Grav
>  Radio Frequency comunnication
>  Deep Space survivability.
>
>Basically, I'm looking to explore the idea of a race of "biological"
>space vessels. The trouble I keep having is coming up with a remotely
>plausible evolutionary pressure to evolve these capabilities. Engineered
>life forms, maybe.
>
>When I was in high school, I added a race IMTU called the Kyeth which
>were slow hulks with weak contragrav ability. They matured in gas giants
>and eventually were able to slowly travel the local stellar system.
>Extremely long lived, they filtered the dust of moons and asteriod and
>concentrated rare elements iinto crystalline organs to achieve the "high
>tech" abilities.
>
>Eventually, I created an alien civilization which drifted through the
>system living on these migrating creatures like barnacles on a whale.
>
>It is kind of embarrasing to read through my first attempts at campaign
>creation. I just found my notes in box of gaming stuff and was wondering
>if anything was salvagable from these ideas. <Given the science used in
>movies, probably a screenplay>
>
>Anyone else want to share an early campaign item they thought was very
>cool and are now a bit ashamed of?
>
>
>Glenn
>
>______________________________________________________
>
>Glenn E. Myers
>ANSYS Inc.                Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
>275 Technology Drive      Phone: (724) 514-2913
>Canonsburg, PA 15317      Fax:   (724) 514-3118
>______________________________________________________
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:02:01 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Biological space vessels

Glenn Myers wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I've been wondering if any traveller alien life forms existed which
> possessed any of the following abilities:
> 
>   Contra-Grav
>   Radio Frequency comunnication
>   Deep Space survivability.
> 
> Basically, I'm looking to explore the idea of a race of "biological"
> space vessels. The trouble I keep having is coming up with a remotely
> plausible evolutionary pressure to evolve these capabilities. Engineered
> life forms, maybe.

RF communications could evolve, certainly, in large lifeforms in an
appropriate medium our ever-present 'giant things living in gas giants'
would plausibly evolve this. all it takes is electrical generation
(which is possible electric eels do it) and reception organs (whihc is
why they have to be big)

This might also work for aquatic organisms, who could possibly evolve
VLF radio, similar to what the US uses for communications with
submarines.

Deep Space survivability is iffier. You need to come up with a plausible
reason that they would need it. One scenario that comes to mind is a
life form evolves in a gas giant atmosphere, that for some reason is
slowly stripped of it's atmosphere. The organism could evolve defenses
against drying, and there would be a large variety of symbiotes and/or
parasites specializing in different functions, such as propulsion and
photosynthesis.

It owuld probably have an interesting life cycle, and probably migrate
to and from atmospheres in the system it evolved in, as some elements,
such as nitrogen might be hard to come by.

Alternatively they could inhabit cometary belts, and use that material,
thin as it is, as 'food' to supplement photosynthesis.

An interesting concept, particularly if they have developed radio commo,
is 'radiosynthesis' using RF energy to synthesize food. There would have
to be a powerful RF source...they might inhabit systems with brown
dwarfs, which (iirc) are supposed to be radio emitters. (Bruce M?)

More exotic, would be organisms with natural fission reactors. This
would require environemnts quite high in radiactive materials, and some
rather exotic biochemistry, but they certainly would freak the Scouts
who first came upon them...

Evolved contragrav is right out...I think. I can't see how that could
evolve from non-contrtagrav mechanisms 

All of the above examples could evolve from simpler mechanisms...for
instance, the fission creatures could have originally simply
encapsulated the fissile material to isolate it from vulnerable organs,
then used these encapsulated bodies for generating warmth, then as an
energy source for the entire organism.

The key to advanced biological features is to imagine how they might
have arisen from simpler mechanisms that were still beneficial to the
organism, under the appropriate evolutionary pressures.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:06:36 -0700
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Re: Earth Tech

>Actually, it only takes a million tons or so to generate a 1 g field
>*over a limited area*. For one thing, the field of a flat plate doesn't
>drop off via inverse square until the distance from the plate is almost
>as great as the diameter of said plate.

That's what I said. Megatons of mass energy.

Flat plates have problems on the edges, as well.

>And this is using Newtonian techniques and "brute force". There may be
>ways of "finessing" the problem that take much less energy.

Incorrect.

The definition of a spacetime is a differentiable manifold possessing a
metric. Formally, metric G has the pseudo-Riemannian form diag (-,+,+,+),
has 3+1 dimensions, is Hausdorff and paracompact.

Starting from potentials, construct the affine connection. Deriving the
geodesic, which is the movement of a particle under the influence of
gravity only, use variational calculus to extremize total proper distance.
Parameterizing the curve in proper distance using the four-vector one
derives the geodesic equation in terms of the affine connection. One can
then define the Riemann curvature tensor in terms of the affine connection.

The Riemann tensor govers the difference in acceleration of two
free-falling particles near one another. (For example, in the Earth-Moon
system the Moon distorts the Riemann tensor at the Earth's surface, causing
a time dependent piece that we observe as tides.)

Contracting the Riemann tensor gives the Einstein tensor. The Einstein
field equations relate the curvature of spacetime to the distribution of
matter and energy as measured by the stress-energy tensor. [1]

Still with me?

Concluding, in order to change the geodesic (ie, neutralize gravity) you
must change the Riemann tensor. In order to change the Riemann tensor, you
must change the stress-energy tensor. In order to change the stress-energy
tensor, you must change the distribution of mass-energy.

There are several conjectural ways to do this, but that's subject for
another post. Suffice it to say that the problem is not as trivial as you
make it sound.

Full details of the mathematical analysis (there's just no easy way to
write all those tensors in ASCII) available from the reference.

[1] Matt Visser. _Lorentzian Wormholes: From Einstein to Hawking_. American
Institute of Physics Press, Woodbury, New York, 1996.

>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)


- --Adam

acgetchell@ucdavis.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:30:35 -0700
From: "Cliff Linehan" <Cnl@sfamipec.com>
Subject: Jump Speed Time Chart

I thought that this time chart I drew up might be of some interest to
others. It also includes the equivelent Star Trek warp speed for the
jump distance.

The single largest drawback to jump travel is the need for massive
amounts of fuel (pure liquid hydrogen) and a required 4 hours of
"cooling off" and cursory systems check time for the jump drive engine
after each jump. Each time notation is providing a straight linear path
for the distance traveled, 4 hours of refueling, & 4 hour jump drive
system check. It does not add other factors that can lengthen the trip
time.	

Jump 1 (Warp 4.6036)
113,738,726,316.6730 MPH
169.6032 Times Speed of Light
1.05 Weeks Between Two Nearby Stars: 1 parsec. (3.2616 light years)
41.90 Weeks Across One Sector: 40 parsecs. (130.4640 light years)
167.62 Weeks Across Imperium: 160 parsecs. (521.8560 light years)
12353.77 Years To Nearby Galaxy: 613,196 parsecs. (2,000,000.0736 light
years)

Jump 2 (Warp 5.7034)
227,477,452,633.3450 MPH
339.2064 Times Speed of Light
1.05 Weeks Between Two Nearby Stars: 1 parsec. (3.2616 light years)
20.95 Weeks Across One Sector: 40 parsecs. (130.4640 light years)
83.81 Weeks Across Imperium: 160 parsecs. (521.8560 light years)
6176.88 Years To Nearby Galaxy: 613,196 parsecs. (2,000,000.0736 light
years)

Jump 3 (Warp 7.0609)
454,954,905,266.6900 MPH
678.4128 Times Speed of Light
1.05 Weeks Between Two Nearby Stars: 1 parsec. (3.2616 light years)
13.97 Weeks Across One Sector: 40 parsecs. (130.4640 light years)
55.87 Weeks Across Imperium: 160 parsecs. (521.8560 light years)
4117.92 Years To Nearby Galaxy: 613,196 parsecs. (2,000,000.0736 light
years)

Jump 4 (Warp 8.6765)
909,909,810,533.3800 MPH
1,356.8256 Times Speed of Light
1.05 Weeks Between Two Nearby Stars: 1 parsec. (3.2616 light years)
10.48 Weeks Across One Sector: 40 parsecs. (130.4640 light years)
41.90 Weeks Across Imperium: 160 parsecs. (521.8560 light years)
3088.44 Years To Nearby Galaxy: 613,196 parsecs. (2,000,000.0736 light
years)

Jump 5 (Warp 9.8110)
1,819,819,621,066.7600 MPH
2,713.6512 Times Speed of Light
1.05 Weeks Between Two Nearby Stars: 1 parsec. (3.2616 light years)
8.38 Weeks Across One Sector: 40 parsecs. (130.4640 light years)
33.52 Weeks Across Imperium: 160 parsecs. (521.8560 light years)
2470.75 Years To Nearby Galaxy: 613,196 parsecs. (2,000,000.0736 light
years)

Jump 6 (Warp 9.9440)
3,639,639,242,133.5200 MPH
5,427.3024 Times Speed of Light
1.05 Weeks Between Two Nearby Stars: 1 parsec. (3.2616 light years)
6.98 Weeks Across One Sector: 40 parsecs. (130.4640 light years)
27.94 Weeks Across Imperium: 160 parsecs. (521.8560 light years)
2058.96 Years To Nearby Galaxy: 613,196 parsecs. (2,000,000.0736 light
years)

Cliff Linehan
cnl@sfamipec.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 10:51:01 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Imperial Calendar Question

> From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>

The Imperial Calendar is somewhere on the web -- try SJG's web site, or
even IG.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:11:33 -0400
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
Subject: RE: Biological space vessels

Bruce Johnson wrote:

  >RF communications could evolve, certainly, in large lifeforms in an
  >appropriate medium our ever-present 'giant things living in gas
giants'
  >would plausibly evolve this. all it takes is electrical generation
  >(which is possible electric eels do it) and reception organs (whihc
is
  >why they have to be big)

I had the mature creatures max out at 5 miles long. I guess that would 
be big enough. What would be the minimum size for reception?

  >Deep Space survivability is iffier. You need to come up with a
plausible
  >reason that they would need it. One scenario that comes to mind is a
  >life form evolves in a gas giant atmosphere, that for some reason is
  >slowly stripped of it's atmosphere. The organism could evolve
defenses
  >against drying, and there would be a large variety of symbiotes
and/or
  >parasites specializing in different functions, such as propulsion and
  >photosynthesis.

I used the capture of a rogue superdense moon to pull away the
atmosphere. 
(more embarassment). The superdense material was also crucial in the 
development of the special organs. A big concept of that campaign was
the 
interesection between known space and several dark matter objects. Of 
course, a small amount of dark matter got smeared in the collision and
was 
lying about. <WEG> Even a dark matter lifeform or two lingered
<extremely WEG>

  >An interesting concept, particularly if they have developed radio
commo,
  >is 'radiosynthesis' using RF energy to synthesize food. There would
have
  >to be a powerful RF source...they might inhabit systems with brown
  >dwarfs, which (iirc) are supposed to be radio emitters. (Bruce M?)

Part of their migratory cycle was to drift in closer to the primary star

and soak up ratiation prior to reproduction through budding.

  >More exotic, would be organisms with natural fission reactors. This
  >would require environemnts quite high in radiactive materials, and
some
  >rather exotic biochemistry, but they certainly would freak the Scouts
  >who first came upon them...

  >Evolved contragrav is right out...I think. I can't see how that could
  >evolve from non-contrtagrav mechanisms 

Actually, from my notes, (which were based on Classic Trav) I only 
specified that there was no reaction mass. I seem to have played about 
with stutterwarp phasing as well but rejected it because of the high 
energy requirements.

I think the contra-grav idea came about as a mechanism for navigating 
within the gas giant.

When the symbiont alien race used the creatures as space vessels and 
floating cities, they of course attached all manner of drives and
weapons 
to the biological hull.
 
  >All of the above examples could evolve from simpler mechanisms...for
  >instance, the fission creatures could have originally simply
  >encapsulated the fissile material to isolate it from vulnerable
organs,
  >then used these encapsulated bodies for generating warmth, then as an
  >energy source for the entire organism.

I used something similar once in a radiation beast. I can't help it, 
I have a penchant for creatures with electromagnetic capabilities.

  >The key to advanced biological features is to imagine how they might
  >have arisen from simpler mechanisms that were still beneficial to the
  >organism, under the appropriate evolutionary pressures.

  >-- 
  >Bruce Johnson
  >University of Arizona
  >College of Pharmacy
  >Information Technology Group

Thanks for your comments, this has been most helpful. 

Glenn

______________________________________________________

Glenn E. Myers
ANSYS Inc.                Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
275 Technology Drive      Phone: (724) 514-2913
Canonsburg, PA 15317      Fax:   (724) 514-3118
______________________________________________________
 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #732
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 10 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 733



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Jump Speed Time Chart
missiles & physics 
Re: Reference to PDL's
Re: ST Ship Displacements
RE: Jump Speed Time Chart
Re: Jump Speed Time Chart 
Re: Jump Speed Time Chart 
Posting Problems
RE: Posting Problems
Re: Posting Problems
Re: Present Day Virus
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Posting Problems
Missiles and KE kills.
Poor editing
Re: Posting Problems
Re: A plea for cinema restraint...
Re: Jump Speed Time Chart
RE: Biological space vessels
Stable superheavy elements
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #731
Re: Reference to PDL's

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:43:00 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Jump Speed Time Chart

Cliff Linehan writes:
"I thought that this time chart I drew up might be of some 
interest to others. It also includes the equivelent Star 
Trek warp speed for the jump distance.
<snipped>
Jump 1 (Warp 4.6036)
113,738,726,316.6730 MPH
169.6032 Times Speed of Light
<snipped>

Jump 2 (Warp 5.7034)
227,477,452,633.3450 MPH
339.2064 Times Speed of Light"
<snipped>

	IIRC, FASA (not necessarily the final word in such
	matters, but my main source of such information)
	treated warp number cubed as the factor of c. Thus,
	warp 1 = c, warp 2 = 8c, warp 3 = 27 c, etc. How 
	you calculated your warp speeds?

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:49:54 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: missiles & physics 

>From: Steve Lieb <steve@necadon.com>
.
>	[[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  But wait.  Maybe I'm a dope but let's
>scale this down a little.  Assume the missle has 5g acceleration laterally
>(IMO if I'm designing a missile that's got 50g accel, I'm going to use MOST
>of that for closing to the target to minimize the time in flight simply to
>reduce exposure to target countermeasures and tracking difficulty) if 1g is
>10m/s^2, then isn't 5g 50m/s^2?  I know this is a curve, but for
>simplicity's sake can we assume the missile could then be "jinking" around
>3m in .1 seconds?  This seems like a HUGE amount for a defense targetting
>system to compensate for.

 v = at         = (50m/s)(0.1s) = 5m/s (where change in velocity is at issue)
 d = (1/2)at^2  = 0.25m    (for displacement of predicted position)

  I'm sure the specialists in orbital mechanics can clarify/correct at need.

  And 0.05 ls is still a whopping 15 megameters.

>	I have one other tangential question: are the thrusters on a ship
>typically uniform in distribution?  I mean, in Mayday for example, a 2g ship
>could alter it's future position by 2 hex in any direction.  I guess I would
.

  It's sort of assumed that for maneuver (not necessarily evasion...)
purposes that the drives are at the stern and that the ship re-orients
itself during the game turns duration (characteristically fairly long
in Traveller) before making a desired burn.

        Steven Hudson

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"
        (but Space 1889 is quite cool, too)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:46:40 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Reference to PDL's

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> 
> Inertia is *mass*. The velocity term is the one that gets nasty. 

Oh! Oh! If that other guys gets to get all technical about 
half-dead cats and collapsed wave functions, can I start up about
the fact that inertial mass and gravitational mass are not 
necessarily the same thing?

> But in Traveller, we merely have artificial gravity, which like gravity
> only produces apparent acceleration forces when being *resisted*
> (because it acts on every particle equally). So the g-comp is nothing
> more than an artificial gravity field tied to the engines such that it
> neutralizes the apparent thrust. 

Really? Does it? I don't recall reading that anywhere in "canon"...
Maybe the g-comps negate inertia. Which would be really, really
cool... it might even explain how missles manage to get in and hit 
when they'd be so easy to shoot down - assuming they've got inertia.

Maybe I can also do some stats up for a gigantic spinal weapon that sucks
all the iron out of a ship...

- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:16:52 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: ST Ship Displacements

At 12:48 PM 6/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >Ever get a look at the old Franz Joseph Designs blueprints for the
> >Enterprise? There's a *lot* of ship there.
>
>Including the bowling alley.  No, I'm not kidding.

Thus, the "Bowling Alley" critical hit from SFB's Code Red cards.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:23:03 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: RE: Jump Speed Time Chart

At 02:43 PM 6/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Cliff Linehan writes:
>"I thought that this time chart I drew up might be of some 
>interest to others. It also includes the equivelent Star 
>Trek warp speed for the jump distance.
><snipped>
>Jump 1 (Warp 4.6036)
>113,738,726,316.6730 MPH
>169.6032 Times Speed of Light
><snipped>
>
>Jump 2 (Warp 5.7034)
>227,477,452,633.3450 MPH
>339.2064 Times Speed of Light"
><snipped>
>
>	IIRC, FASA (not necessarily the final word in such
>	matters, but my main source of such information)
>	treated warp number cubed as the factor of c. Thus,
>	warp 1 = c, warp 2 = 8c, warp 3 = 27 c, etc. How 
>	you calculated your warp speeds?

And they treated Trans-Warp as raising to the fifth power..  1 = c, TW2 =
32c, TW3 = 243c ...TW9 = 59049c and TW10 = 100000c

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:05:33 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Speed Time Chart 

> I thought that this time chart I drew up might be of some interest to
> others. It also includes the equivelent Star Trek warp speed for the
> jump distance.

<shrug>
 
> The single largest drawback to jump travel is the need for massive
> amounts of fuel (pure liquid hydrogen) and a required 4 hours of
> "cooling off" and cursory systems check time for the jump drive engine
> after each jump. 

And it seems that the more radical gearheads keep trying to trim the required fuel further down and down and down.  Pretty soon, I expect them to come up with arguments that say you can fuel a 100kt cruiser on a glass of water for 3 years at high jumps.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong...

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:25:13 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Speed Time Chart 

At 04:05 PM 6/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> I thought that this time chart I drew up might be of some interest to
>> others. It also includes the equivelent Star Trek warp speed for the
>> jump distance.
>
><shrug>
> 
>> The single largest drawback to jump travel is the need for massive
>> amounts of fuel (pure liquid hydrogen) and a required 4 hours of
>> "cooling off" and cursory systems check time for the jump drive engine
>> after each jump. 
>
>And it seems that the more radical gearheads keep trying to trim the 
>required fuel further down and down and down.  Pretty soon, I expect them to 
>come up with arguments that say you can fuel a 100kt cruiser on a glass of 
>water for 3 years at high jumps.

Personally, I liked, and still prefer, the MT J-Fuel useage rates for TLs
over 16 and think that there should be some way to factor it for lower tech
levels.  After all, a TL-15 world produces a J-1 Drive that is in all game
respects, the same as one by a TL-10 world.  There should be some sort of
fuel economy and even volume economy factored in somewhere.

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 17:11:11 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Posting Problems

Please forgive the bandwidth: Has anybody else been getting error messages
like this when trying to post to the list? This is the second one that I
have received:

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 08:04:10 +1200
From: MDaemon@salcom.co.nz
Subject: Transient Delivery Failure
To: ian@vax2.concordia.ca
Reply-to: BadMsgQ@salcom.co.nz
X-MDSend-Notifications-To: [trash]
X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ian@vax2.concordia.ca
X-Actual-From: MDaemon@salcom.co.nz

The attached message had transient non-fatal delivery errors

THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY - YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE!

This server is configured to automatically retry delivery at configured
intervals.  Subsequent attempts to deliver this message are pending.
<snipped>


Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 17:25:09 -0400
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
Subject: RE: Posting Problems

Yes, every time I've posted today...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian Ferguson [mailto:ian@vax2.concordia.ca]
Sent: Thursday, June 10, 1999 5:11 PM
To: traveller@mpgn.com
Subject: Posting Problems


Please forgive the bandwidth: Has anybody else been getting error
messages
like this when trying to post to the list? This is the second one that I
have received:

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 08:04:10 +1200
From: MDaemon@salcom.co.nz
Subject: Transient Delivery Failure
To: ian@vax2.concordia.ca
Reply-to: BadMsgQ@salcom.co.nz
X-MDSend-Notifications-To: [trash]
X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ian@vax2.concordia.ca
X-Actual-From: MDaemon@salcom.co.nz

The attached message had transient non-fatal delivery errors

THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY - YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE!

This server is configured to automatically retry delivery at configured
intervals.  Subsequent attempts to deliver this message are pending.
<snipped>


Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:30:43 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Posting Problems

me too
Virus in the server?

Ducking and running
TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com' <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 4:23 PM
Subject: RE: Posting Problems


>Yes, every time I've posted today...
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Ian Ferguson [mailto:ian@vax2.concordia.ca]
>Sent: Thursday, June 10, 1999 5:11 PM
>To: traveller@mpgn.com
>Subject: Posting Problems
>
>
>Please forgive the bandwidth: Has anybody else been getting error
>messages
>like this when trying to post to the list? This is the second one that I
>have received:
>
>Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 08:04:10 +1200
>From: MDaemon@salcom.co.nz
>Subject: Transient Delivery Failure
>To: ian@vax2.concordia.ca
>Reply-to: BadMsgQ@salcom.co.nz
>X-MDSend-Notifications-To: [trash]
>X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ian@vax2.concordia.ca
>X-Actual-From: MDaemon@salcom.co.nz
>
>The attached message had transient non-fatal delivery errors
>
>THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY - YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE!
>
>This server is configured to automatically retry delivery at configured
>intervals.  Subsequent attempts to deliver this message are pending.
><snipped>
>
>
>Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:28:07 -0700
From: Keith Johnson <kejohnson@2xtreme.net>
Subject: Re: Present Day Virus

>Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 11:31:07 -0400
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>Subject: Re: Present Day Virus
>
<snip>
>
>Actually there was a darkly humorous horror film a few years back called
>"The Lift" about... a murderous malfunctioning elevator. Although completely
>improbable it was humorous. Should be required viewing for anyone running a
>campaign in the Virus era.


The funniest thing about "The Lift" is the by line: "Take the stairs!  Take
the stairs!  For God's sake, take the stairs!!!"  :)





___________________________________________________________
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    kejohnson@2xtreme.net
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com

             http://www.sjgames.com/

Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay 
out and your dog would go in.  - Mark Twain, a Biography
___________________________________________________________ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 17:57:28 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> "Steppin Fetchit" is a generic name for the cowardly, stupid, *black*
> character in all too many old films.

It has come to be generic but it was originally specific to a character
depicted first on radio and later in film.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco, Inc.

http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 18:00:14 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Posting Problems

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 5:11 PM
Subject: Posting Problems


>Please forgive the bandwidth: Has anybody else been getting error messages
>like this when trying to post to the list? This is the second one that I
>have received:


Yes. I got one and it had a message I sent earlier today as an attachment.
It's the only time I've received such an error message.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
Looking for other Traveller players in your area?
Looking to run a PBEM game? Check out:
http://www.pil.net/~semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 18:35:34 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Missiles and KE kills.

Following the current discussion, I was looking at the Special Supplement,
and noticed that for each 300mm/turn combined velocity (30000 km / turn)
(the vector from combining the ship's vector and the missiles vector) an
automatic damage point is scored.

Should this really be:

Total vector 	Damage
>300mm		+1
>600mm		+4
>900mm		+9
>1200mm		+16
>+300mm		+(vector/300)^2

Would this model the KE effect more accurately?

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 18:11:29 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Poor editing

Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net> writes:

106 lines of quote
3 lines of comment

Please be more concise with your quotes. We'd only just read the whole
message when you resent it.

Many thanks,

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 15:49:16 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Posting Problems

Chris Seamans wrote:
> 
> Yes. I got one and it had a message I sent earlier today as an attachment.
> It's the only time I've received such an error message.

It's a pretty standard "I can't deliver this yet" message generated by
some mail demon. 

Someone's box has crashed or isn't accepting mail right now, if it
doesn't come up you may get more messages like this at longer time
intervals.

Unix sendmail usually tries for up to 5 days, this is some Windows based
mail system, though, so who knows what'll happen.

In general you don't need to worry about these messages at all.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:10:37 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, June 10, 1999 7:11 AM
Subject: Re: A plea for cinema restraint...


>"Steppin Fetchit" is a generic name for the cowardly, stupid, *black*
>character in all too many old films.


Not quite generic. Steppin Fetchit was the stage name of an african-american
actor who worked from about the 30s to the 50s. He was well known for his
portrayals of extremely submissive and demeaningly slapstick characters in a
wide variety of films and short subjects.

Most of the ethical problems with Steppin Fetchit come not from the man
himself (he was actually very intelligent and talented) but from the general
mood in Hollywood at the time, in which the only roles for blacks were
demeaning and self-depreciatingly funny ones.

In generic usage, the name indicates that an african-american actor or
performer has "sold out" to take a stereotypically demeaning role in white
cinema or music.

ObTrav: What does it mean to be an Aslan or Vargr in an interstellar society
and culture that is overwhelmingly dominated by humaniti? Is the Imperium
"beyond" stereotyping, or is there a certain way that the Imperium expects
other sentient species to behave?

I'd suspect that the Aslan would tend to be portrayed in a bizzare dual
light, much like the native Americans were in the 30s and the 60s. On one
hand, remorseless raiders with no respect for Imperial society or culture,
pillaging and looting. On the other hand, they might sometimes be portrayed
as the "noble savage," the ever faithful, ever capable sidekick. Then
there'd be some who'd see them the way that the Old West magazines of the
period portrayed the Native Americans: awe-inspiring in ability, but
ultimately tragic characters.

On the other hand, how are Vargr viewed by Imperial citizens? How do the
various non-human races feel in Imperial society?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 16:15:45
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Speed Time Chart

At 10:30 AM 6/10/99 -0700, you wrote:
>I thought that this time chart I drew up might be of some interest to
>others. It also includes the equivelent Star Trek warp speed for the
>jump distance.
>
>The single largest drawback to jump travel is the need for massive
>amounts of fuel (pure liquid hydrogen) and a required 4 hours of
>"cooling off" and cursory systems check time for the jump drive engine
>after each jump. Each time notation is providing a straight linear path
>for the distance traveled, 4 hours of refueling, & 4 hour jump drive
>system check. It does not add other factors that can lengthen the trip
>time.	

Useful little chart, but I have a question.  For your "across the Imperium"
distance, you chose 160 pc.  That works for going Core-Rim, Like Lishun to
Solomani Rim, but I'm curious why you didn't use the Imperium's longest
axis, Spinward Marches-Empty Quarter.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 18:17:35 -0500
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: RE: Biological space vessels

At 02:11 PM 6/10/1999 -0400, Glenn E. Myers wrote:
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>   >RF communications could evolve, certainly, in large lifeforms in an
>   >appropriate medium our ever-present 'giant things living in gas
>giants'
>   >would plausibly evolve this. all it takes is electrical generation
>   >(which is possible electric eels do it) and reception organs (whihc
>is
>   >why they have to be big)
>
>I had the mature creatures max out at 5 miles long. I guess that would
>be big enough. What would be the minimum size for reception?
>
>   >Deep Space survivability is iffier. You need to come up with a
>plausible
>   >reason that they would need it. One scenario that comes to mind is a
>   >life form evolves in a gas giant atmosphere, that for some reason is
>   >slowly stripped of it's atmosphere. The organism could evolve
>defenses
>   >against drying, and there would be a large variety of symbiotes
>and/or
>   >parasites specializing in different functions, such as propulsion and
>   >photosynthesis.
>
>I used the capture of a rogue superdense moon to pull away the
>atmosphere.

Larry Niven's Smoke Ring books take place in a torus orbiting a neutron 
star, in turn orbiting another star.  The gas torus is caused by tidal 
effects on the gas giant orbiting the neutron star, thinning out the 
atmosphere into a ring of atmosphere around the star.  Your creatures could 
evolve a thicker skin as the atmosphere slowly dissipates over the 
eons.  The two books were real good, but he left it open for another book, 
many years ago, and I am still waiting.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
  Saying, I would know.
  Do not know.
  So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 17:41:43 -0700
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Stable superheavy elements

Element 118 has been recently created, and, per expectations, is more
stable than elements with lower Z numbers.

This stability is relative however; Element 118 still decays via alpha
emission in less than a millisecond. However, that is a great deal longer
than the 240 milliseconds for Unubium (Element 112). Element 114
(Ununquadium) seems to have a half life of about 30 seconds before decaying
into Unubium.

See http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_363000/363968.stm

- --Adam

acgetchell@ucdavis.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 21:53:40 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #731

At 09:45 AM 6/10/99 -0500, you wrote:
>> Two points close together won't determine your target's vector
exactly
>> (it tends to underestimate the effect of any acceleration between
>> the points) but if the two points are close enough together in
time,
>> it won't matter much.
>	[[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  I don't believe so.  I give you two
>points.  You can tell me what curve I'm taking between those two
points?  

	No. He's telling you that at the ranges and timescales we're
discussing, he really doesn't care if you're going in a straight line
or a curve. He's still going to hit you. If you DON'T thrust, you're
going in a straight line. If you DO thrust, you still can't move far
enough off of the straight line, in most cases, to get out of the
line of fire. And then you throw in rapid fire lasers that saturate a
nice volume AROUND your predicted position, and it's toast.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 21:17:00 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Re: Reference to PDL's

At 02:46 PM 6/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Maybe I can also do some stats up for a gigantic spinal weapon that sucks
>all the iron out of a ship...
>

 Uh oh! The dreaded Ranged Rust Monster attack. :) I just couldn't resist.


>--
>Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
>Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com
>
>
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #733
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Traveller-digest        Friday, June 11 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 734



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Iron-Sucking Weapons
Re: Biological space vessels
Re: Biological space vessels
Re: Earth Tech
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #731
Re: Biological space vessels
Re: Naval crew turnover (Longish)
Re: evasion math
Re: Reference to PDL's
Re: Jump Speed Time Chart
Re: Earth Tech
Final ST ship dimensions
Re: Frozen Avian Caveat...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 21:55:06 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Iron-Sucking Weapons

Joe Kirby wrote:
> 
> At 02:46 PM 6/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >Maybe I can also do some stats up for a gigantic spinal weapon that sucks
> >all the iron out of a ship...
> >
> 
>  Uh oh! The dreaded Ranged Rust Monster attack. :) I just couldn't resist.
> 
Either that, or the obsession-inspiring Vampire Cloud from some Gene
Roddenberry TV series (if the iron content drained by said critter
includes the iron in the crewbeings' hemoglobin).

<<snip sigs>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:34:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Biological space vessels

In mail you write:

> I've been wondering if any traveller alien life forms existed which
> possessed any of the following abilities:
>
>   Contra-Grav
>   Radio Frequency comunnication
>   Deep Space survivability.  
>
> Basically, I'm looking to explore the idea of a race of "biological"
> space vessels. The trouble I keep having is coming up with a remotely
> plausible evolutionary pressure to evolve these capabilities. Engineered
> life forms, maybe.
>
> When I was in high school, I added a race IMTU called the Kyeth which
> were slow hulks with weak contragrav ability. They matured in gas giants
> and eventually were able to slowly travel the local stellar system.
> Extremely long lived, they filtered the dust of moons and asteriod and
> concentrated rare elements iinto crystalline organs to achieve the "high
> tech" abilities.

Actually, you don't need CG. Solar sails will work, and so will very
crude "reaction drives". Just expell waste materials at high speed and
you'll eventually get where you want to go. 

I expect that their metabolic rate would be low, especially while in
transit between planets or belts. 

I have trouble picturing them evolving naturally though. 

If you want something similar that *could* evolve naturally, think
*much* bigger. Then try to find a copy of the old SF novel "The Black
Cloud" by Fred Hoyle. It involves a living *nebula*. That is, a cloud
of dust and gas the better part of a parsec acrosss.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:42:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Biological space vessels

In mail you write:

> Larry Niven's Smoke Ring books take place in a torus orbiting a neutron 
> star, in turn orbiting another star.  The gas torus is caused by tidal 
> effects on the gas giant orbiting the neutron star, thinning out the 
> atmosphere into a ring of atmosphere around the star.  Your creatures could 
> evolve a thicker skin as the atmosphere slowly dissipates over the 
> eons.  The two books were real good, but he left it open for another book, 
> many years ago, and I am still waiting.

Alas, it's been determined that he made a couple of *bad* errors in the
math for the Smoke Ring. Correct the error and it can't exist. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:44:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Earth Tech

In mail you write:

>>Actually, it only takes a million tons or so to generate a 1 g field
>>*over a limited area*. For one thing, the field of a flat plate doesn't
>>drop off via inverse square until the distance from the plate is almost
>>as great as the diameter of said plate.
>
> That's what I said. Megatons of mass energy.
>
> Flat plates have problems on the edges, as well.
>
>>And this is using Newtonian techniques and "brute force". There may be
>>ways of "finessing" the problem that take much less energy.
>
> Incorrect.
>
> The definition of a spacetime is a differentiable manifold possessing a
> metric. Formally, metric G has the pseudo-Riemannian form diag (-,+,+,+),
> has 3+1 dimensions, is Hausdorff and paracompact.
>
> Starting from potentials, construct the affine connection. Deriving the
> geodesic, which is the movement of a particle under the influence of
> gravity only, use variational calculus to extremize total proper distance.
> Parameterizing the curve in proper distance using the four-vector one
> derives the geodesic equation in terms of the affine connection. One can
> then define the Riemann curvature tensor in terms of the affine connection.
>
> The Riemann tensor govers the difference in acceleration of two
> free-falling particles near one another. (For example, in the Earth-Moon
> system the Moon distorts the Riemann tensor at the Earth's surface, causing
> a time dependent piece that we observe as tides.)
>
> Contracting the Riemann tensor gives the Einstein tensor. The Einstein
> field equations relate the curvature of spacetime to the distribution of
> matter and energy as measured by the stress-energy tensor. [1]
>
> Still with me?
>
> Concluding, in order to change the geodesic (ie, neutralize gravity) you
> must change the Riemann tensor. In order to change the Riemann tensor, you
> must change the stress-energy tensor. In order to change the stress-energy
> tensor, you must change the distribution of mass-energy.
>
> There are several conjectural ways to do this, but that's subject for
> another post. Suffice it to say that the problem is not as trivial as you
> make it sound.

Ah! But you are *assuming* that the force is changing the metric. 

All we need is a force that can affects individual particles equally,
rather than coupling via the surface particles. Then we can cancel the
*effects* of gravity without having to cancel gravity. 

For example, a magnet can lift a chunk of iron against gravity with a
very low energy input. 

We just need an attractive or repulsive force that affects all
particles equally. Once we have that, the actual energy cost of
neutralizing gravity is quite low. It's the same as that required to
boost the mass in question to escape velocity (plus losses).

What this mystery force could be, I have no idea. But it doesn't have
to be that energy intensive.

Oh yeah, another thing to consider. What if we really *are* using
"gravity" (ie mucking about with the curvature of space time). It's
possible to make a section of space time "flat" *locally*. 

To use the typical "rubber sheet" model, you'd have a place partway up
the side of a gravity well that was flat. The slope on the "downhill"
side of the flat area would be steeper than normal, as would the slope
on the "uphill" side. It'd be an equipotential surface, at a *non*-zero
potential. So in that area, you'd get most of the effects of being far
from a gravity well. Just watch out for the edges. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 19:18:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #731

In mail you write:

>> >example.  to compensate for velocity you need a minimum of 2 plots over
>> >time to determine direction and distance over that "time".  that IS
>> >easy.  but what if the target ship is employing a random vector
>> >adjustment WHILE traveling along a curve?  it's rare that a ship would
>> >travel in a straight line (even in microgravity), and then you need a
>> >significant series of plots over time to establish a curve, which can be
>> >altered easily at any time by the target simply slightly changing their
>> >thrust, yes?
>> 
>> Nope. Just two points will do. For a start, recording all your targets
>> previous evasion just confuses the issue (unless you need to estimate
>> their performance or see if they are using "evasion pattern delta".)
>> Secondly, the effect of microgravity can be ignored. Since the argument
>> is that 10G or even 1,000G is not enough for a contact missile to evade,
>> 0.001G of microgravity won't matter. Any significant gravity due to
>> stars and planets can be calculated and allowed for (a planet
>> isn't like to take off in a random direction in the next second!)
>         [[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  I must be failing my "communicate ideas"
> rolls badly.
>         1) i was saying that "it's rare a ship would travel in a straight
> line (even in microgravity)" - meaning, that in a gravity well ships would
> typically be moving in curves, but i postulated that exactly *because*
> non-constant curves complicate targetting so much i would think ships in any
> possible danger of being fired at would typically move in such curves
> whether they were in gravity or not.  this was not to bring it up in terms
> of targeting at all (directly).

The thing is that jinking wastes fuel like crazy, and *isn't* all that
effective. 

>> Two points close together won't determine your target's vector exactly
>> (it tends to underestimate the effect of any acceleration between
>> the points) but if the two points are close enough together in time,
>> it won't matter much.
>         [[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  I don't believe so.  I give you two
> points.  You can tell me what curve I'm taking between those two points?  I
> really don't think so - theoretically it's an infinite number of
> possibilities, functionally of course there are fewer depending on the
> vehicles acceleration potential, but still a LOT.  I give you three, four ,
> even five points.  Yes, the closer together these points are in time
> functionally limits the number of curves I can manage to fit through them
> all, but there's still quite a few solutions.  And the closer together the
> points are will only have validity if the time between sensor contacts (call
> them c1, c2, c3, etc) and weapon termination (meaning specifically the time
> the projectile/energy/whatever arrives on TARGET, not the firing of said
> weapon) are relatively similar.  For example, if your sensor is sampling 10
> times per second (so c1 is at t=.1, c2 is at t=.2) then the weapon arrival
> time better also be around .1 from the last c or the firing solution as a
> function of the previous c points it effectively useless.  By the time you
> get an order of magnitude difference, there's no way a sensor can be useful.

Given reasonable drive accelerations, your course is actually pretty
straight. 

>> >     my point, anyway, was first that passive sensors might be more
>> >accurate given the circumstances,
>> 
>> Not true if you are referring to lightspeed lag. You don't care about
>> the time it takes the active sensor pulse to reach the target, just as
>> long as when it returns, you know which pulse you sent.
>         [[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  Accurate might be the wrong word.  Useful
> is better.  Imagine: two ships pop into existence 1 light second apart.
> Which one is going to get info about the other quicker - the one with active
> sensors or passive sensors?  
>
>> However, to claim that the missile always knows when to change
>> acceleration (if it detects another sensor pulse, it knows not to
>> evade because the PD laser pulse is already on its way), and
>> that it can do this whilst accelerating on an intercept vector
>> (which won't be direcly towards me) at 50G and pointing the armoured,
>> reflective, sensor array towards me and the emissionless engine
>> and radiators away from me.
>> Continuously for half an hour or more (or at least for the couple of
>> seconds during that time that I decide to fire at it).
>> All in a 10cm diameter sphere.
>> It's a bit much.
>> 
>         [[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  But wait.  Maybe I'm a dope but let's
> scale this down a little.  Assume the missle has 5g acceleration laterally
> (IMO if I'm designing a missile that's got 50g accel, I'm going to use MOST
> of that for closing to the target to minimize the time in flight simply to
> reduce exposure to target countermeasures and tracking difficulty) if 1g is
> 10m/s^2, then isn't 5g 50m/s^2?  I know this is a curve, but for
> simplicity's sake can we assume the missile could then be "jinking" around
> 3m in .1 seconds?  This seems like a HUGE amount for a defense targetting
> system to compensate for.

The "evasion distance" is d=.5*a*t^2 where t is the lightspeed lag. 

At 5 g, and .1 seconds that gives:

d=.5*50*.1^2
d=25*.01
d=.25

Thus, in .1 seconds, you can change the endpoint of your position
vector by .25 meters. Which is a bit under 10 inches.

At 1 light second range, the lag is 2 seconds, giving 100 meters. Not
bad, bad it decreases *rapidly*.

>         And why would the missile need to detect an incoming pulse to try to
> evade point-defense?  Wouldn't it be simpler just to randomize the evasion
> program to increase to "max evaseiveness" meaning maximum jitter at, oh, say
> 1 light second from target?

As you can see above, the closer you get the less use your "jittering"
is. 

>         Personally, I see with the time-lag due to sensors, and the
> evasiveness of missiles, point-defense systems are not going to work much
> differently in Traveller than in the modern RW.  The incoming missile has a
> theoretical maximum arc change over time.  The point defense object to FILL
> this circle of possible future points with damaging fire.  Thats all - it's
> like shooting with a shotgun.  You try to put the maximum concentration of
> shot where you expect the target could be.

True enough, except that with speed-of-light weapons, the volume of
uncertainty becomes quite small at distances we'd consider huge. That
.1 second lag is at a distance of 15 thousand kilometers. Which is
roughly the diameter of Earth!

>         I have one other tangential question: are the thrusters on a ship
> typically uniform in distribution?  I mean, in Mayday for example, a 2g ship
> could alter it's future position by 2 hex in any direction.  I guess I would
> not imagine that this is the maximum utility for the placement of these
> thrusters.  As long as the ship can decelerate minimally (1g) I would
> imagine MOST ships would direct most of the thrust backward, since in a
> pinch you can spin the ship to use that thrust to stop if you have to. To
> use a better example, a 4g civilian courier wouldn't have that much need for
> lateral acceleration, and put "1g" thrusters to fore, starboard and port,
> but put the rest of the thrust to aft.  Doesn't that make more sense?

Actually, you've got *no* need for thrusters capable of anything
*resembling* 1 g thrust. In space, if you want to change course, you
use inertia wheels or low power thrusters to turn the ship and you then
use the main drive to change the course. 

Consider the length of a "turn", and then work out how *little* thrust
it takes to turn a small ship (Scout, free trader, etc) 180 degrees in
much less than that. 

Say a ship is 40 meters long. That means that to rotate the ship 180
degrees, you need to move the nose thru a distance of pi*radius or
about 62 meters. Say it takes a minute. The forces are going to be less
than a g...

So given that turns are 15-30 minutes, the time to rotate the ship is
neglible. And you don't have to brace the ship for large off-axis
thrusts. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 20:23:13 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Biological space vessels

Glenn Myers wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
> I've been wondering if any traveller alien life forms existed which
> possessed any of the following abilities:
>
>   Contra-Grav
>   Radio Frequency comunnication
>   Deep Space survivability.
>
> Basically, I'm looking to explore the idea of a race of "biological"
> space vessels. The trouble I keep having is coming up with a remotely
> plausible evolutionary pressure to evolve these capabilities. Engineered
> life forms, maybe.

For a good fictional version of bioengineered living spaceships, see
Peter Hamilton's "The Reality Dysfunction". Surprisingly Travelleresque in
many respects (only with more gratuitous sex, and a bizzare primary
plot.) One faction in the balkanized human space uses bioengineered
ships ("Voidhawks").

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 23:31:11 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Naval crew turnover (Longish)

>From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@rahul.net>
>
>
>I thought I'd bring the broad base of knowledge on the
>list to bear on another question that's mostly about
>contemporary military practice.
>
>While visiting the Intrepid Sea-Air-Space museum last
>summer, I noted a plaque on the island of the carrier
>listing the ship's 20-odd skippers during its 40-odd
>years of active service. I was surprised to see that
>rapid a turnover; I'd have thought that it would be
>more efficient to keep the same commander for closer
>to 5 years or so.
>
>Is a 2-year turnover of command typical for USN vessels?

Typical tour for a commanding officer in the US Navy at this time is 16
months. Department heads have 18 month tours. Enlisteds serve for from 36 to
60 months.

>What are the reasons for the turnover rate? To keep
>people loyal to the Navy rather than to individual
>commanders (for interchangeability/modularity reasons,
>or for fear of mutiny)? To minimize the impact of the
>inevitable turnovers by doing them frequently? To
>give more officers a chance to command ships?

The ever decreasing numbers of US Navy ships has resulted in the practice of
shortening command tours so that every officer selected for command can
serve as a CO. Since these officers require these tours to advance (Most
ships are commanded by Commanders not Captains) the result is the high
turnover rate.

>After a two-year command of a CV, does the skipper go
>on to another ship, or to a desk? How about after
>commanding a smaller ship?

Typical Navy officer career (surface force) is:
	24 month tour as a junior officer acting as a division officer (Ens-LTJG)
	24 month tour aboard a different command as a division officer (LT.)
	12 months ashore at department head school
	18 month tour as a department head. (LT)
	24 month tour ashore/traveling as either an instructor or an inspection
team member. Possibly with a school tacked on afterwards for another 24
months.
	18 month tour as either a department head on a large vessel (Carrier or
amphibious ship) (LCRD)
	OR
	16 month tour as the XO of a small vessel (Frigate/destroyer)
	Then PCO (Prospective Commanding Officer School) (LCDR or CDR) Upto 49
months.
	16 month tour as a CO (Destroyer/frigate or XO Amphibious ship/support
ship)
	Then another 24 month tour  ashore, probably with a Joint Command (That
means with Army or Airforce Officers or NATO)
	16 Month tour as a Destroyer Squadron commander (CAPTAIN)
	Or
	A staff position for an admiral
At this point the officer will never again command a ship.  Carrier CO/XO's
are aviators, and so have a different career track. And of course ever
officer's career is different in the details.

>And of course, the ObObTrav (obligatory and obvious):
>What are the answers to all of the above questions for
>the Imperial Navy?

ObTrav:Prime example of the way not to run a navy. CO's develop no loyalty
to their crews and vice-versa.  Officers who should be concentrating on
tactics and politics instead spend a great deal of their time learning to be
engineers and sensor specialists, instead of letting the experts handle it.
By the time a CO knows the true capabilities of his ship he is leaving. Many
CO's Band-Aid problems, knowing that they'll be gone before the problem
becomes impossible to ignore.

I see the Imperial Navy as much closer in pattern to the Royal Navy of the
early Twentieth Century or the US Navy of the last century. Officers
specialize, with some choosing (of having chosen for them) non-command
tracks in engineering, sensors and weapons specialties.  Officers serve on
vessels for extended periods of time, with transfers only done to move
someone to a newly created position or one vacated by retirement, promotion
or death.

Many positions are highly political in nature, with appointments controlled
by the Nobility.  We already know that the Navy is the favorite service for
the second sons/daughters of the nobility.  Most of the rest of the
positions are filled out by men and women from Navy families, some having
histories of service going back a thousand years. Such people take tradition
even more seriously than the most serious of Vilani civilians. Of course
since Imperial Navy units are organized by Domain loyalty to the local
Archduke might be more important than loyalty to the Iridium Throne.

I've got more, but I'll probably get around to posting that on my WebPages,
unless someone is interested on my thoughts on a specific point.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 20:38:57 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: evasion math

>10m/s^2, then isn't 5g 50m/s^2?  I know this is a curve, but for
>simplicity's sake can we assume the missile could then be "jinking" around
>3m in .1 seconds?

Definitely not. Distance "jinked" from original course is (0.5)*(accel)*(t^2),
so in 0.1 seconds it's only 0.25 m; the t^2 makes a big, big difference.

>And the closer together the
>points are will only have validity if the time between sensor contacts (call
>them c1, c2, c3, etc) and weapon termination (meaning specifically the time
>the projectile/energy/whatever arrives on TARGET, not the firing of said
>weapon) are relatively similar.  For example, if your sensor is sampling 10
>times per second (so c1 is at t=.1, c2 is at t=.2) then the weapon arrival
>time better also be around .1 from the last c or the firing solution as a
>function of the previous c points it effectively useless.  By the time you
>get an order of magnitude difference, there's no way a sensor can be useful.

The picture of a sensor working in "snapshots" is probably too simple;
but it's simpler, so lets use it, and take an example with actual math.

Assume a target at 0.1 lightseconds (30,000 km), with 2G acceleration.
For simplicities sake, assume it has been flying on a constant course for
a while, so initially I know its velocity perfectly. A good sensor can measure
its position to about 5 nanoradians, or a positional error of 0.15 m.
Let's assume the sensor updates very, very slowly - ten times a second.
(My math for the Definitive Sensor Rules required sensors to detect targets
faster than this for weapons fire.) During a tenth of a second the ship can
only accelerate by 2 m/s (moving it 0.1 m off its predicted course.) I measure
its position twice with i0.15 m errors; the error in the differences is
~0.2m (=sqrt(0.15^2+0.15^2)) so my estimate of its velocity can be wrong by
up to 2m/s. Let's take the worst case; I'm wrong by 2 m/s and estimate
that it didn't accelerate at all. So I fire at the original predicted
position. My
pulse reaches it 0.1 seconds after my second measurement, or 0.2 seconds
after it started accelerating. By
the time the laser pulse reaches the target, it's moved
(0.5*2*10m/s^2*(0.2)^2)
or 0.4 m away from that predicted position; less than the diameter of a
big high-performance missile. And that's a *bad* case; the sensor really
updates much more often than 10 times a second. Of course, a missile
evades faster than 100G; missiles are hard to hit at 30,000 km - which is why
det-laser missiles are good - but there are t^2 dependences in this, so a
200-G missile at 3000 km is similar to the above example.

(The tradeoffs are more complex, though. The "measurement error" is
really only linear with distance, so at large distances it doesn't matter as
much as the ability of the target to move in the delay time, which goes as
range^2.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 20:43:04 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Reference to PDL's

>From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
>Subject: Re: Reference to PDL's

>Maybe I can also do some stats up for a gigantic spinal weapon that sucks
>all the iron out of a ship...

  "The Future, young man, is in plastics..."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 22:53:16 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Speed Time Chart

> >And it seems that the more radical gearheads keep trying to trim the
> >required fuel further down and down and down.  Pretty soon, I expect them
> >to come up with arguments that say you can fuel a 100kt cruiser on a
> >glass of water for 3 years at high jumps.
> 
> Personally, I liked, and still prefer, the MT J-Fuel useage rates for TLs
> over 16 and think that there should be some way to factor it for lower
> tech levels.  After all, a TL-15 world produces a J-1 Drive that is in all
> game respects, the same as one by a TL-10 world.  There should be some
> sort of fuel economy and even volume economy factored in somewhere.

Actually, if you want to follow present day as an assumption, I would 
tend to think that the lower tech worlds would have a better 
consumption rate.  Look at Japan when they first came out with 
mass produced cars in the US (and abroad, I assume).  40 to 50 
mpg sure did beat my 18 mpg truck.  Of course, my truck went 
faster and could pull up tree stumps but then you don't expect to 
jump across a subsector with a J1 engine either.

Just my 0.02Cr.




- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 00:00:29 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: Earth Tech

>Has anyone else here heard the one about the jargon protocol the ST:NG
>script writers supposedly followed?  The idea is that in order to maintain
>at least a patina of continuity in the jargon, the writers will simply put
>[tech] in the script as a kind of symbolic constant when a character uses
>technical jargon.  A hypothetical example:
>
>Data:  "Our [tech] emitters are not penetrating the [tech] screen.  I will
>have to boost the power to the [tech] in order to breach it."
>
>Later, the jargon police would come in and 'fill in the blanks'.

Yes indeed. In fact much of the printed material published for fans was
originally put together to give the tech police a standard set of rules to
make the technology as consistent as possible while still furthering the
story.  Contrary to what has been stated in this forum (IMHO) much of the
science on Star Trek was as authentic as possible given what we know, and
using premises like: If we wanted to build a transporter what kind of
technology would we need to do that? The writers were especially adept
(again IMHO) at deriving new devices from technology that had already been
introduced. For example replicators were an outshoot of transporter
technology. The interactive tech manual is a prime example of how detailed a
set of self-consistent fantasy technology can be produced when a highly
intelligent group of individual decide to explain why something works they
way it has been described, rather than why it can't work that way.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 02:36:16 -0500
From: Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net>
Subject: Final ST ship dimensions

 First off, I would like to thank all that had replied to this topic.

 Here is what I have decided on for the Displacement values.


  Constitution Class Heavy Cruiser (HOOD)

Displacement:  12,300 tons
Length        290 m
Width         127 m
Height         73 m
Closed structure (I think any suggestions)

  D-7 Klingon Cruiser 
Displacement: 7,800 tons (hmm don't seem right)
Length        216 m
Width         152 m
Height         55 m
Wedge Structure (I think again)

  Romulan War Bird
Displacement: 5,200 tons
Length        136 m
Width         199 m 
Height         47 m
Wedge Structure?


  All but the War bird will have the minimal armor for the hull. The War
bird will have more armor which it retained from the Pre-Warp era.

 For the Power plants I will of course use Matter/Anti matter. For the
ships drives well that's where it gets sticky. 
 For the ST sublight Drives which they called Impulse engines. Well there
seems to be no drive like this listed (I know it is near Inertia less. And
they can achieve speeds nearing the speed of light) I was thinking
Stutterwarp at first, but that is what I am going to use for the Warp Engines.
 This is how I described the ST ship once in one of my Side Trek games...

  "You have just exited Jump space and you do an immediate scan of the
space around you and the first thing you notice, is that Astrograph can not
make a  fix on your location." Players in unison say "Great!"
  "As you scan the system you notice that there is a habitable planet 3
au's from you position. As you scan it closer.. Wait you just picked
something up passing between you and the planet.. It can't be right! You
check the sensors for errors, there is non... It seems to be an object
traveling at 0.49 c (Half impulse)... its current vector will put it out of
sensor range in.... Oh no! You don't believe it, it just changed it's
vector by 90 degrees, instantly, a quick calculation in your head puts the
G's required at around a phenomenal 450 G's. And to top it off your
Proximity Alarms are going off! Its on a Collision course. What do you do?"

 Now all of us in this group have little in a way of science knowledge so I
was just Winging it (Or fudging). But I tried to stay within the confines
of ST. Also I tried not to give away too much to them (They figured it out
when I described the dimensions and shape of the ship to them)

  So is there a Alternative Drive listed in the FF&S book that would be
similar to Impulse drives? Remember they need to be able to stop on a dime
(or the interstellar equivalent.)

  And this is just the drives wait till I ask about the weapons. LOL.

 Thanks and sorry for the length
- -- 
   Joe Kirby      | Come Check out the New Revolution in Internet Business
warlord@means.net |       At http://www.handtech.com/tcweb/jkirby 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 18:18:22 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Frozen Avian Caveat...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ashley Munday <Ashley.Munday@liffe.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Friday, 11 June 1999 12:21
Subject: Frozen Avian Caveat


>The point I was making about the chicken cannon was that (perhaps) never in
>the field of human conflict has a chicken, frozen out it's freezer been
>fired at something. [It's a bit like the Spiderman fetishist ravishing the
>villainess.] There again, knowing how daft engineers are should we be
>surprised??
>
>Here's another military myth for your delectation:
>
>THE DROP BEAR
>=============
>
>This is a type of Koala that falls on people and knocks them unconscious.
>The current Australian army say that this a 1980's invention from an
>American tank commander that twatted a branch while going topside for a
look
>during an exercise.
>

Heheheh... it has evolved into a hidious beast that looks like a koala, but
shapechanges as it drops on unsuspecting people, known to carry GI's off
into the bush and scare the living daylights out of Japanese tourists!  We
were telling that story in the 70's.

>However, my Grandfather told me the same story about his experiences in
>Australia during WWII, where a pilot with his canopy open was "dropped" by
a
>Koala while taxiing and crashed. After that, any indigenous (probably not
>spelt correctly!) Oz wildlife was machine-gunned by gullible rock apes.
>
>Ash
>

legend has it that it came about when Americans were stationed in Australia
during WWII, something fell on a GI in the middle of the night during joint
US/Aust exercises and scurried off... leaving the GI scarred with claw (cute
little possums [yeah, the size of a large cat!] and koalas have nasty claws!
Koalas don't scurry real well by the way) marks.  When he told his Aussie
allies about it, he was told something to the effect of, "Yeah sport, drop
bears are ah nasty surprise out here... they likes ears cobber..."  Official
QMI history  :^)

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #734
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Traveller-digest        Friday, June 11 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 735



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Posting Problems...
Drop Bears
Re: Jump Speed Time Chart 
Re: Posting Problems
Re : Internal Consistency (was Re : Earth Tech and Jump Speed Time Chart)
Re: Iron-Sucking Weapons
Re: Missiles vs PDL
re: Earth Tech
Trek Tech (was re: Earth Tech)
Ping
Re: Earth Tech
RE: Stable superheavy elements
Re: Biological space vessels
OT:  Looking for...
RE: Jump Speed Time Chart
RE: Final ST ship dimensions (long)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 18:40:02 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Posting Problems...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, 11 June 1999 7:13
Subject: Posting Problems


>Please forgive the bandwidth: Has anybody else been getting error messages
>like this when trying to post to the list? This is the second one that I
>have received:
>
>Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 08:04:10 +1200
>From: MDaemon@salcom.co.nz
>Subject: Transient Delivery Failure
>To: ian@vax2.concordia.ca
>Reply-to: BadMsgQ@salcom.co.nz
>X-MDSend-Notifications-To: [trash]
>X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ian@vax2.concordia.ca
>X-Actual-From: MDaemon@salcom.co.nz
>
>The attached message had transient non-fatal delivery errors
>
>THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY - YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE!
>
>This server is configured to automatically retry delivery at configured
>intervals.  Subsequent attempts to deliver this message are pending.
><snipped>
>
>
>Peez
>

I got it once this evening, but the post to which it refers got through the
night before

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:19:05 +0100
From: Ashley Munday <Ashley.Munday@liffe.com>
Subject: Drop Bears

The Roc enlightens me more about Drop Bears...

I'm not suprised Koalas fall on people out of trees. If I had to eat a diet
of Eucalyptus leaves I'd be bloody minded. There again, I did here they were
permanently stoned from the leaves, or is that another myth?

Will they still be telling the story in 3000 years time to the Vilani?

===========================================
Aescleal

http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/1853/

Home: ashley@geocities.com OR ashleym@telinco.co.uk
Work: ashley.munday@liffe.com

=========================================== 

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:07:04 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Speed Time Chart 

At 16:05 10/06/1999 -0400, "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
wrote:
 
>> The single largest drawback to jump travel is the need for massive
>> amounts of fuel (pure liquid hydrogen) and a required 4 hours of
>> "cooling off" and cursory systems check time for the jump drive engine
>> after each jump. 
>
>And it seems that the more radical gearheads keep trying to trim the
required fuel further down and down and down.  Pretty soon, I expect them
to come up with arguments that say you can fuel a 100kt cruiser on a glass
of water for 3 years at high jumps.
>
>Just my opinion, I could be wrong...

Indeed.

All you really need is a suitable Brownian motion generator,
like a nice hot cup of tea.

You'd need some energy input before each jump to reheat the tea and I
reckon you'd be well advised to make a fresh cup of tea as part of the
annual maintenance.

(sorry, sorry, sorry)

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 07:59:58 -0400
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Re: Posting Problems

It happens when someones mail transport agent doesn't bounce messages 
right.  They are forwarding the "I can't send the message" to the "From" 
line instead of the "Sender" or "Errors-to" line.

Rob

At 05:11 PM 6/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Please forgive the bandwidth: Has anybody else been getting error messages
>like this when trying to post to the list? This is the second one that I
>have received:
>
>Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 08:04:10 +1200
>From: MDaemon@salcom.co.nz
>Subject: Transient Delivery Failure
>To: ian@vax2.concordia.ca
>Reply-to: BadMsgQ@salcom.co.nz
>X-MDSend-Notifications-To: [trash]
>X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: ian@vax2.concordia.ca
>X-Actual-From: MDaemon@salcom.co.nz
>
>The attached message had transient non-fatal delivery errors
>
>THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY - YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE!
>
>This server is configured to automatically retry delivery at configured
>intervals.  Subsequent attempts to deliver this message are pending.
><snipped>
>
>
>Peez

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious
http://www.mpgn.com/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:03:43 "GMT"
From: "robocon@ozemail.com.au" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Internal Consistency (was Re : Earth Tech and Jump Speed Time Chart)

Keven Pittsinger wrote :-
>And it seems that the more radical gearheads keep
>trying to trim the required
> fuel further down and down and down. Pretty soon, I
> expect them to come up with arguments that say you
> can fuel a 100kt cruiser on a glass of water for 3
> years at high jumps.

The jump fuel requirement is fine by me.
<rant>
My grumble is with the absurd fuel requirements for
nuclear power plants as described in the various
rules incarnations - efficiencies are dreadful, far
worse (~100X) than RW fission plants (or projected fusion ones).
</rant>

Terry Carlino wrote about the Star Trek technical
architecture. Yep, it's internally consistent, which
is great.

The same degree of internal consistency is what we're
trying to achieve for the Imperium campaign background
on this list, isn't it? Look at some of the awful
T4 products that appeared when there was a consistency
failure...

I know things get lost in debates which approach the 'how many angels dance on the head of a pin?'
level of theological intensity, but there would appear
to be some sense in it.... wouldn't there?

;-)

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

__________________________________________________________
Message sent by MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 00:51:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Iron-Sucking Weapons

In mail you write:

> Joe Kirby wrote:
>> 
>> At 02:46 PM 6/10/99 -0400, you wrote:
>> >
>> >Maybe I can also do some stats up for a gigantic spinal weapon that sucks
>> >all the iron out of a ship...
>> >
>> 
>>  Uh oh! The dreaded Ranged Rust Monster attack. :) I just couldn't resist.
>> 
> Either that, or the obsession-inspiring Vampire Cloud from some Gene
> Roddenberry TV series (if the iron content drained by said critter
> includes the iron in the crewbeings' hemoglobin).

<sigh>

Don't you youngsters recognize references to *classic* Science Fiction
when you read them?

That's an *obvious* reference to E.E. "Doc" Smith's "Triplanetary".
Specifically to the Nevian ray for extracting allotropic iron. 


- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 13:46:45 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Missiles vs PDL

At 09:45 10/06/1999 -0500, Steve Lieb <steve@necadon.com> wrote:

>> >example.  to compensate for velocity you need a minimum of 2 plots over
>> >time to determine direction and distance over that "time".  that IS
>> >easy.  but what if the target ship is employing a random vector
>> >adjustment WHILE traveling along a curve?  it's rare that a ship would
>> >travel in a straight line (even in microgravity), and then you need a
>> >significant series of plots over time to establish a curve, which can be
>> >altered easily at any time by the target simply slightly changing their
>> >thrust, yes?

>and I replied:
 
>> Nope. Just two points will do. For a start, recording all your targets
>> previous evasion just confuses the issue (unless you need to estimate
>> their performance or see if they are using "evasion pattern delta".)
>> Secondly, the effect of microgravity can be ignored. Since the argument
>> is that 10G or even 1,000G is not enough for a contact missile to evade,
>> 0.001G of microgravity won't matter. Any significant gravity due to
>> stars and planets can be calculated and allowed for (a planet
>> isn't like to take off in a random direction in the next second!)
>	[[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  I must be failing my "communicate ideas"
>rolls badly.
>	1) i was saying that "it's rare a ship would travel in a straight
>line (even in microgravity)" - meaning, that in a gravity well ships would
>typically be moving in curves, but i postulated that exactly *because*
>non-constant curves complicate targetting so much i would think ships in any
>possible danger of being fired at would typically move in such curves
>whether they were in gravity or not.  this was not to bring it up in terms
>of targeting at all (directly).

My rolls are equally bad.
I am approximating your motion using a straight line joining your last two
sensor positions. The best you can do to not be hit is to be as far away
from that line as possible. This means using max acceleration in a radial
distance for the entire time from my first sensor pulse until the weapon
hits You get approx. half the benefit of the time between sensor pulses
plus the full benefit of the time between the second pulse and the weapon
hitting. Any other course of action would put you closer to my estimate for
your position.
Bruce doesn't think that the delay between sensor pulses would be significant,
so unless there is reason otherwise, I'll just ignore it. Just like I'll
ignore the fact that you aren't going to have an optimal evasion path.

>> Two points close together won't determine your target's vector exactly
>> (it tends to underestimate the effect of any acceleration between
>> the points) but if the two points are close enough together in time,
>> it won't matter much.
>	[[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  I don't believe so.  I give you two
>points.  You can tell me what curve I'm taking between those two points?  I
>really don't think so - theoretically it's an infinite number of
>possibilities, functionally of course there are fewer depending on the
>vehicles acceleration potential, but still a LOT.  I give you three, four ,
>even five points.  Yes, the closer together these points are in time
>functionally limits the number of curves I can manage to fit through them
>all, but there's still quite a few solutions.  And the closer together the
>points are will only have validity if the time between sensor contacts (call
>them c1, c2, c3, etc) and weapon termination (meaning specifically the time
>the projectile/energy/whatever arrives on TARGET, not the firing of said
>weapon) are relatively similar.  For example, if your sensor is sampling 10
>times per second (so c1 is at t=.1, c2 is at t=.2) then the weapon arrival
>time better also be around .1 from the last c or the firing solution as a
>function of the previous c points it effectively useless.  By the time you
>get an order of magnitude difference, there's no way a sensor can be useful.

Unless your acceleration is constant, in a constant direction, then knowing
how you were accelerating 5 seconds ago doesn't seem to help.

I will agree, that your acceleration during the time between my two sensor
pulses will put an error into my calculation of your velocity, but unless
the time between those sensor pulses is very long, all it does is add a bit
to your effective acceleration.

I agrees that there are an infinite number of curves between two points,
but if your acceleration isn't constant, then there are an infinite number 
of curves joining the last two points, even if I know a million previous
positions.

The most extreme error is given if you accelerate at maximum rate in one
direction for the whole time between sensor pulses. If this isn't enough
to help (and it isn't) then any other course change only makes things easier.

>> >	my point, anyway, was first that passive sensors might be more
>> >accurate given the circumstances,
>> 
>> Not true if you are referring to lightspeed lag. You don't care about
>> the time it takes the active sensor pulse to reach the target, just as
>> long as when it returns, you know which pulse you sent.
>	[[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]  Accurate might be the wrong word.  Useful
>is better.  Imagine: two ships pop into existence 1 light second apart.
>Which one is going to get info about the other quicker - the one with active
>sensors or passive sensors?  

Passive, although it seems irrelevant. If one arrives after the other, its
passive sensors would detect the first ship before the first ship's passive
sensor did.

The assumption is usually that you find ships with passive and shoot at them
with active, although I'm not sure if you really not active sensors at all for
some things.

>> However, to claim that the missile always knows when to change
>> acceleration (if it detects another sensor pulse, it knows not to
>> evade because the PD laser pulse is already on its way), and
>> that it can do this whilst accelerating on an intercept vector
>> (which won't be direcly towards me) at 50G and pointing the armoured,
>> reflective, sensor array towards me and the emissionless engine
>> and radiators away from me.
>> Continuously for half an hour or more (or at least for the couple of
>> seconds during that time that I decide to fire at it).
>> All in a 10cm diameter sphere.
>> It's a bit much.

<snip point answered by Leonard>

>	And why would the missile need to detect an incoming pulse to try to
>evade point-defense?  Wouldn't it be simpler just to randomize the evasion
>program to increase to "max evaseiveness" meaning maximum jitter at, oh, say
>1 light second from target?

I was trying to be helpful to the missile. If you evade randomly, whilst it is
possible that that for the time between my sensor pulse and my weapon pulse
you would be evading at 50G in one direction, it is also possible that half
way through the time you would change direction, possibly going back the
way you just came. I could try and do the sums for the probability of where
you will end up for a truly random evasion (of direction and duration),
given mean burn duration and estimated turning rates, but since the value
I gave is the *best* you can theoretically do, and it's not enough, why
bother?

>	Personally, I see with the time-lag due to sensors, and the
>evasiveness of missiles, point-defense systems are not going to work much
>differently in Traveller than in the modern RW.  The incoming missile has a
>theoretical maximum arc change over time.  The point defense object to FILL
>this circle of possible future points with damaging fire.  Thats all - it's
>like shooting with a shotgun.  You try to put the maximum concentration of
>shot where you expect the target could be.
>	Lasers have an advantage in this role since their rate of fire can
>be so high.

It's not their ROF. The US Navy's Close In Weapons System (?) has an ROF
a hundred times greater than the ROF of the FS Signature PDL.
Despite this it would be effectively useless against a Traveller KKM.
The bullets are too slow and by the time the missile was too close to miss,
the defending ship would be unable to avoid the wreckage hitting like
a multikiloton nuke.

As Bruce Macintosh has pointed out before:

	a) if KKMs could hit, it would break all Traveller combat systems.

A KKM doesn't do "1d6 damage", it does "you're dead, no armour save" even
against million ton battlewagons. (Something that fires a million shotgun
pellets from 10,000km is a bit different, but I didn't think you were
referring of those.)

	b) lasers always hit.

Okay, if I'm on the Earth and you're on the Moon pulling several G in random
directions, then not always, but early in the next century, when F15s meet
laser armed 747s, then kill rate = ROF. (At least until the laser breaksdown.)

>	I have one other tangential question: are the thrusters on a ship
>typically uniform in distribution?  I mean, in Mayday for example, a 2g ship
>could alter it's future position by 2 hex in any direction.
<snip>

The assuption is that the thrust is all at the back and that the ship
changes facing.

A CT (or MT?) revision for thrusters is to allow them to act at 25% efficiency
at 90deg (eg to hover) and 10% efficiency at 180deg (ie to go backwards or
stop).
In T4, you could achieve the same effect of landing a ship like a 747 with
some cheap contragrav, so IMTU I just have engines pointing backwards and
make the PCs point the ship in the right direction.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:01:03 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Earth Tech

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
To use the typical "rubber sheet" model, you'd have a place partway up
the side of a gravity well that was flat. The slope on the "downhill"
side of the flat area would be steeper than normal, as would the slope
on the "uphill" side. It'd be an equipotential surface, at a *non*-zero
potential. So in that area, you'd get most of the effects of being far
from a gravity well. Just watch out for the edges. :-)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The "edges" would have an extreme gravity gradient, compared to the
rest of the local area spacetime?

Perhaps, if the gravity you were resisting were strong enough, the
tidal forces at the edge of your antigrav field would rip people in two.
Stay in the middle of the plates, folks...

Walt Smith

Walt Smith
System Manager
Hartwick College
Oneonta, NY
smithw@hartwick.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 09:08:31 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Trek Tech (was re: Earth Tech)

Terry Carlino wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
The writers were especially adept
(again IMHO) at deriving new devices from technology that had already been
introduced. <> The interactive tech manual is a prime example of how 
detailed a
set of self-consistent fantasy technology can be produced when a highly
intelligent group of individual decide to explain why something works they
way it has been described, rather than why it can't work that way.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now if someone on the TML could apply such skills to Traveller fightercraft
and missiles... <G>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 08:23:00 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Ping

Test

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:18:11 +0200
From: Andreas Hartmann <Andreas1.Hartmann@stud.uni-regensburg.de>
Subject: Re: Earth Tech

Hi there,

Just wanted to throw in what little knowledge I have on the
contragrav topic. I'm not a native speaker, so please forgive
my grammar.

> Manipulation of gravity requires enormous energies per General Relativity.
> If we could mass produce micro black holes of a couple gigatons each, we
> might have a shot at creating "antigravity".
> More or less, the energy required to recreate a 1G field is on the order of
> the Earth's mass-energy equivalent. If you wanted to create a smaller
> gravitational field over a smaller area, it is less, but you are still
> considering several megatons of mass energy to do so.

I remember seeing a report about a year ago about this topic. All I
write is from memory, so I don't remember the details.

A russian scientist in the Netherlands worked on a University project
that had to with super conductors.
They had a metal disk cooled down to approximately 0 K or very close to
it. It was held in place by magnetic force (effectively levitating)and
spinning. When the scientist and a colleague went up to next story of
the building to have a talk with someone else (a pipe-smoking
scientist) they noticed by chance that the smoke evaded an area in the
room. Before entering this small area, it went upwards, thereby
leaving this area smokeless. They wondered what would cause this
effect, till they noticed that this room was exactly above their own.
They measured it and found out that the smokeless area was directly
above the disk and had the same size.
From this they concluded that the disk somehow shielded gravity by a
very small amount (IIRC, about 2-3%).
NASA got a hint on this and started a research project in cooperation with
a US University (I don't remember the name, but I think it was next to
NASA headquarters).

I think this could have a rather serious impact on space travel.
By building a large mystically-reducing-gravity device, you could
generate a low-gravity corridor that would make spacecraft much easier
to launch/increase spacecrafts cargo capacities, therefore making
space travelling a lot cheaper (always assuming that one day we will
be able to reduce gravity by a much larger amount than the 2-3%
observed in the experiment).
By building a large mystically-reducing-gravity device, you would also
generate huge amounts of air movement. Upwards. Probably all the air would
do a space trip as well.

I'll see if I can find some more info on the net.



Best regards,
 Andreas Hartmann
 mailto:Andreas1.Hartmann@stud.uni-regensburg.de

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:44:58 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Stable superheavy elements

Adam Getchell writes:
<snipped>
"This stability is relative however; Element 118 still decays 
via alpha emission in less than a millisecond. However, that 
is a great deal longer than the 240 milliseconds for Unubium 
(Element 112). Element 114 (Ununquadium) seems to have a half 
life of about 30 seconds before decaying into Unubium."

	Um... am I missing something here? Is "less than a
	millisecond" "a great deal longer than" "240 milliseconds"?

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:48:43 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Biological space vessels

Leonard Erickson writes:
<snipped>
"I expect that their metabolic rate would be low, especially 
while in transit between planets or belts."

	Almost certainly true, they would probably be in a state
	of deep hybernation.

"I have trouble picturing them evolving naturally though."

	It would certainly be unusual, but it is science FICTION :)

"If you want something similar that *could* evolve naturally, 
think *much* bigger. Then try to find a copy of the old SF novel 
"The Black Cloud" by Fred Hoyle. It involves a living *nebula*. 
That is, a cloud of dust and gas the better part of a parsec 
acrosss."

	Would this be more likely to evolve?

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 10:54:07 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: OT:  Looking for...

Guys,

Sorry for the off topic post.

I'm looking for a copy of Seeker's USS Hampton, a set of deckplans they did
for Traveller:2300/2300AD.  I've hit all the usuall sites on the net, even
called some of them, but no luck.  If anyone might be able to point me in
the right direction, I'd certainly be grateful (Or, if you have them and
want to sell them...).

Thanks!

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 08:15:22 -0700
From: "Cliff Linehan" <Cnl@sfamipec.com>
Subject: RE: Jump Speed Time Chart

From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> on Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:43:00
- -0400

Cliff Linehan writes:
"I thought that this time chart I drew up might be of some 
interest to others. It also includes the equivelent Star 
Trek warp speed for the jump distance.
<snipped>
Jump 1 (Warp 4.6036)
113,738,726,316.6730 MPH
169.6032 Times Speed of Light
<snipped>

Jump 2 (Warp 5.7034)
227,477,452,633.3450 MPH
339.2064 Times Speed of Light"
<snipped>

	IIRC, FASA (not necessarily the final word in such
	matters, but my main source of such information)
	treated warp number cubed as the factor of c. Thus,
	warp 1 = c, warp 2 = 8c, warp 3 = 27 c, etc. How 
	you calculated your warp speeds?

Peez

I followed the description/calculations of the warp speeds given in the
Technical Manual for the Enterprise.
As such, the following information was derived. Please correct me if I
am wrong.

Speed		Times Speed Of Light	
Standard Orbit	0.00000894698958701	
Full Impulse	0.25	
Warp 1.0		1	
Warp 2.0		10	
Warp 3.0		39	
Warp 4.0		102	
Warp 5.0		214	
Warp 6.0		392	
Warp 7.0		656	
Warp 8.0		1,024	
Warp 9.0		1,516	
Warp 9.2		1,649	
Warp 9.6		1,909	
Warp 9.9		3,053	
Warp 9.99	7,912	
Warp 9.9999	199,516	
Warp 10		<Infinite>	

Warp speed was then compared to distance vs. time. Jump speeds were
calculated based on one week of jump time covering one parsec (3.2616
Light Years).
I am not saying that this is canon, I just based the calculations on
information provided.

Clifford Linehan
cnl@sfamipec.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 11:13:44 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Final ST ship dimensions (long)

Joe Kirby writes:
"First off, I would like to thank all that had replied to 
this topic."

	No prob, feel free to post more or contact me off list
	if you prefer.

" Here is what I have decided on for the Displacement values.

  Constitution Class Heavy Cruiser (HOOD)

Displacement:  12,300 tons
Length        290 m
Width         127 m
Height         73 m
Closed structure (I think any suggestions)"

	The saucer section might qualify as flattened sphere
	(that's what it is) or closed (can land in a pinch, but
	probably won't take off again), but the whole vessel is
	definitely not even a little bit streamlined.

"  D-7 Klingon Cruiser 
Displacement: 7,800 tons (hmm don't seem right)
Length        216 m
Width         152 m
Height         55 m
Wedge Structure (I think again)"

	This one is not streamlined either. The tonnage looks 
	fine relative to the others.

"  Romulan War Bird
Displacement: 5,200 tons
Length        136 m
Width         199 m 
Height         47 m
Wedge Structure?"

	I would call this one closed, which is my catch-all
	for streamlined vessels that don't fall into one of
	the other categories.

"  All but the War bird will have the minimal armor for the 
hull. The War bird will have more armor which it retained 
from the Pre-Warp era."

	I think of these vessels as being "armoured" in 
	Traveller terms owing to the advanced materials used,
	even if they are not overtly armoured.

" For the Power plants I will of course use Matter/Anti 
matter. For the ships drives well that's where it gets sticky. 
 For the ST sublight Drives which they called Impulse engines.
Well there seems to be no drive like this listed (I know it is 
near Inertia less. And they can achieve speeds nearing the 
speed of light) I was thinking Stutterwarp at first, but that
is what I am going to use for the Warp Engines."

	Stricly speaking, "impulse engines" just means reaction
	drives, but ST "Impulse engines" may be something special.

<cool description of starship encounter snipped>
" Now all of us in this group have little in a way of science 
knowledge so I was just Winging it (Or fudging). But I tried to 
stay within the confines of ST. Also I tried not to give away too 
much to them (They figured it out when I described the dimensions 
and shape of the ship to them)"

	Did you describe it upside-down? Since there is no definable
	"up" in space, this might help confuse Terran players.

"  So is there a Alternative Drive listed in the FF&S book that 
would be similar to Impulse drives? Remember they need to be able 
to stop on a dime (or the interstellar equivalent.)"

	I am entirely ignorant of FF&S, but I figured in my Star 
	Trek/Traveller musings that the ST impulse engines were
	just the same as Traveller drives (CT power plant + 
	maneuver drive). I argued that the warp engines enabled
	the ship to make hairy maneuvers by playing with space-time.
	The warp engines use a completely different approach to FTL
	travel, which makes conversion difficult. In a Traveller
	setting, I would either make the warp drive entirely new 
	technology (may or may not be able to interact with vessels 
	in jump space) or just change them to jump drives.

"  And this is just the drives wait till I ask about the weapons. 
LOL."

	Go for it!


Peez

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #735
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Traveller-digest        Friday, June 11 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 736



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Macromolecules
Re: Iron-Sucking Weapons
Re: Earth Tech
Re: Jump Speed Time Chart
RE: Stable superheavy elements
RE: Jump Speed Time Chart
FF&S
re: Earth Tech
contragrav in RW
Re: Jump Speed Time Chart
size of Enterprise
Re: Final ST ship dimensions 
Warp Fields
Re: size of Enterprise
RE: Jump Speed Time Chart
Re: FF&S
Dr Evil Monologue
I'm dead Jim...
Re: I'm dead Jim...
More ST technobabble
Re: I'm dead Jim...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 23:09:36 +0100
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Macromolecules

In message <990609.032951.7H2.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>, Leonard
Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes
>In mail, traveller@lists.imagiconline.com writes:
>
>> In a message dated 99-05-21 07:35:29 EDT, you write:
>>
>> << These already exist. They are called "crystals". I've handled a single
>>  molecule of silicon that was 6 feet long and a couple of inches thick! >>
>>
>> crystals are mono-moleculer?  I thought that they were organized molecules.
>
>Crystals of any element are one big molecule. Crystals of compounds get
>a bit more complicated.
> 
Urm - no they aren't.  Iodine crystals are made up of individual iodine
molecules.  Xenon crystals are made up of individual xenon atoms.
Carbon crystals may be made up of individual carbon molecules (e.g.
buckyballs) or giant molecular lattices (e.g. graphite or diamond).

HTH HAND :)
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 11:20:41 -0400
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Iron-Sucking Weapons

> <sigh>
> 
> Don't you youngsters recognize references to *classic* Science Fiction
> when you read them?
> 
> That's an *obvious* reference to E.E. "Doc" Smith's "Triplanetary".
> Specifically to the Nevian ray for extracting allotropic iron. 

Having not read the book in nigh-on a decade, I forgot the details, like
the name, but I remembered enough to know that if you're going to mention
inertial cancellation, you've got to mention Nevian rays and evil drug
pushers from outer space(tm). Thanks, Leonard.
- --
Ethan Henry                                            egh@klg.com
Java Evangelist, KL Group                       http://www.klg.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 08:27:56 -0700
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Re: Earth Tech

>> Concluding, in order to change the geodesic (ie, neutralize gravity) you
>> must change the Riemann tensor. In order to change the Riemann tensor, you
>> must change the stress-energy tensor. In order to change the stress-energy
>> tensor, you must change the distribution of mass-energy.
>>
>> There are several conjectural ways to do this, but that's subject for
>> another post. Suffice it to say that the problem is not as trivial as you
>> make it sound.
>
>Ah! But you are *assuming* that the force is changing the metric.

I don't think you understood my arguments, or the mathematical subtleties
within.

General Relativity is a classical field theory. Force is a Newtonian
concept, and doesn't even enter into the equations that I qualitatively
described. Talking about force within the concept of the general metric is
nonsense.

The spacetime metric is a potential field, from which the affine connexion
is constructed, leading to the geodesic parametrized in proper time.

>All we need is a force that can affects individual particles equally,
>rather than coupling via the surface particles. Then we can cancel the
>*effects* of gravity without having to cancel gravity.

Your concept of force is in error. All forces are low-energy manifestations
of gravity, and are curvatures in space. Fundamentally, there are four:
strong nuclear, weak nuclear, electromagnetic, and gravity. Of them, only
gravity affects everything equally.

>For example, a magnet can lift a chunk of iron against gravity with a
>very low energy input.

Provided the substance is ferromagnetic. How well does it work on plastic?

>We just need an attractive or repulsive force that affects all
>particles equally. Once we have that, the actual energy cost of
>neutralizing gravity is quite low. It's the same as that required to
>boost the mass in question to escape velocity (plus losses).

Unfortunately also false. Any postulated fifth force would have to freeze
out very close to Planck time -- that is, when the universe was highly
energetic and dominated by photons. You would have to create such
conditions again to see it. Fifth forces are fringe science anyways, but
you're free to postulate what you like.

Early in the history of the universe, gravity itself acted contrary to its
current nature -- during the hyperinflation epoch. However, for us to
generate these conditions we again need to reach those energy levels:
probably several TeV per particle, or directly manipulate the stress energy
tensor.

>What this mystery force could be, I have no idea. But it doesn't have
>to be that energy intensive.

Incorrect. See above. For example, if you think the Higg's boson mediates a
brand new antigravity force, fine. But you'll have to create Higg's bosons
by the truckload, and they are very energetic and shortlived particles.
You'll also have to figure out how to make them propagate any distance.

>Oh yeah, another thing to consider. What if we really *are* using
>"gravity" (ie mucking about with the curvature of space time). It's
>possible to make a section of space time "flat" *locally*.

First, this is not necessary, for the most part spacetime is already
Minkowski; ie General Relativity is linearized such that Special Relativity
applies.

Second, it would not gain you anything. The only place this might apply is
near a black hole, in which case you might as well try to make a wormhole
with the event horizon.

Again, to do any sort of engineering on the metric by whatever means you
want: tachyons, bosons, magnets, handwave force, what-have-you; you must
manipulate the stress energy tensor per the General Relativity field
equations, which requires significant amounts of mass-energy.

For example: Miguel Alcubierre postulated a possible spacewarp. However,
some calculations suggest that more energy than is available in the entire
universe may be needed to recreate it. (I'm waiting for a more recent paper
that may indicate otherwise in General Relativity and Quantum Cosmology)

>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)

- --Adam

acgetchell@ucdavis.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 08:30:58 -0700
From: "Cliff Linehan" <Cnl@sfamipec.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Speed Time Chart

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> on Thu, 10 Jun 1999
16:15:45

Useful little chart, but I have a question.  For your "across the
Imperium"
distance, you chose 160 pc.  That works for going Core-Rim, Like Lishun
to
Solomani Rim, but I'm curious why you didn't use the Imperium's
longest
axis, Spinward Marches-Empty Quarter.
- - -- 
Douglas E. Berry

If you note I also used the the 40 pc for "across the Sector" and not
32. I just continued the directional bias. But the Spinward
Marches-Empty Quarter route would also be through the great rift.
I can see all the "Last chance for gas" signs being posted now in
Gushemege Sector.

Clifford Linehan
cnl@sfamipec.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 08:29:28 -0700
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: RE: Stable superheavy elements

>Adam Getchell writes:
><snipped>
>"This stability is relative however; Element 118 still decays
>via alpha emission in less than a millisecond. However, that
>is a great deal longer than the 240 milliseconds for Unubium
>(Element 112). Element 114 (Ununquadium) seems to have a half
>life of about 30 seconds before decaying into Unubium."
>
>	Um... am I missing something here? Is "less than a
>	millisecond" "a great deal longer than" "240 milliseconds"?

That should be microseconds ....

>Peez

- --Adam

acgetchell@ucdavis.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:19:33 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Jump Speed Time Chart

Cliff Linehan writes:
"I followed the description/calculations of the warp speeds 
given in the Technical Manual for the Enterprise. As such, 
the following information was derived. Please correct me if 
I am wrong.

Speed			Times Speed Of Light	
Standard Orbit	0.00000894698958701	
Full Impulse		0.25	
Warp 1.0		1	
Warp 2.0		10	
Warp 3.0		39	
Warp 4.0		102	
Warp 5.0		214	
Warp 6.0		392	
Warp 7.0		656	
Warp 8.0		1,024	
Warp 9.0		1,516	
Warp 9.2		1,649	
Warp 9.6		1,909	
Warp 9.9		3,053	
Warp 9.99		7,912	
Warp 9.9999		199,516	
Warp 10		<Infinite>	

Warp speed was then compared to distance vs. time. Jump 
speeds were calculated based on one week of jump time 
covering one parsec (3.2616 Light Years). I am not saying 
that this is canon, I just based the calculations on
information provided."

	I have no doubt that your calculations are correct.
	What I am wondering is, what is the basis for the 
	above chart? Having the formula for converting
	warp to the factor of c would be useful. I have
	never liked FASA's warp system that much, and would 
	like to understand this one.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 13:47:44 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: FF&S

I have a question.
I take it that there are two versions/editions of FF&S.
What are the differences and which is better to have?

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:43:47 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Earth Tech

Adam Getchell wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't think you understood my arguments, or the mathematical subtleties
within.
>>>>>>>>>>>
I certainly didn't understand the math, nor the arguments. Adam's
knowledge on this subject is parsecs ahead of mine.

With that in mind, I'd like to ask a "favor":

Adam, with your grasp of physics, could you point us towards the
gaps in theory where a low-energy antigravity force/technique might
lurk? We already *know* antigrav is "impossible" with current
Earth science...how about some thinking about how it could be
possible? You've evidently put some thought as to the obstacles - what
unknown or partially understood areas of physics exist that could,
if current guesses are wrong, allow workable antigravity?

From such thinking comes the best speculative fiction.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 14:32:52 -0500
From: Steve Lieb <steve@necadon.com>
Subject: contragrav in RW

> A russian scientist in the Netherlands worked on a University project
> that had to with super conductors.
> 
	[[REPLY from Steve Lieb]]
http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/gravity.html
	gives a good description of the experiment and subsequent issues.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 11:15:46
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Speed Time Chart

At 08:30 AM 6/11/99 -0700, you wrote:

>But the Spinward Marches-Empty Quarter route would also be through the great 
>rift.

Spinward Marches-Deneb-Corridor-Vland-Lishun-Antares-The Empty Quarter.

Start in Jewell/SM and you can fly almost a straight line to Trailing.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:06:07 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: size of Enterprise

>" Here is what I have decided on for the Displacement values.
>
>  Constitution Class Heavy Cruiser (HOOD)
>
>Displacement:  12,300 tons
>Length        290 m
>Width         127 m
>Height         73 m
>Closed structure (I think any suggestions)"

 My original blueprints and Technical Manual are out of reach at the moment, 
but the blueprints for the 1701-A (Movies 1-6) Enterprise give the following 
numbers:


  Overall Length  304.8m
 Overall Draft    71.3m
 Overall Beam    141.7m

 Saucer Length   146.3m
 Saucer Draft     32.9m
 Saucer Beam     141.7m (diameter)

 Secondary Len.  121.0m
 Seconrary Draft  47.5m
 Secondary Beam   32.9m

 Nacelle Length  154.8m
 Nacelle Draft    18.3m
 Nacelle Beam     12.6m

 The 1701-A was slightly stretched from the TOS version, but the numbers are 
close enough.


GC

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 13:14:52 -0700
From: "Wayne" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Final ST ship dimensions 

> Joe Kirby writes:
> "First off, I would like to thank all that had replied to
> this topic."
>
> No prob, feel free to post more or contact me off list
> if you prefer.
>
> " Here is what I have decided on for the Displacement values.
>
>   Constitution Class Heavy Cruiser (HOOD)
>
> Displacement:  12,300 tons
> Length        290 m
> Width         127 m
> Height         73 m
> Closed structure (I think any suggestions)"
>
> "  D-7 Klingon Cruiser
> Displacement: 7,800 tons (hmm don't seem right)
> Length        216 m
> Width         152 m
> Height         55 m
> Wedge Structure (I think again)"
>
> "  Romulan War Bird
> Displacement: 5,200 tons
> Length        136 m
> Width         199 m
> Height         47 m
> Wedge Structure?"
>
> "  And this is just the drives wait till I ask about the weapons.

I would love to see how all three look when done(hopefully in HG or MT
stats). Will settle for what ever is your fav flavor (CT/HG, MT ,TNE, T4, or
GT)

Wayne Ewart (CT/HG Templer wanna-be)
wewart@home.com
ICQ 22113294

Give a man fire, and he is warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he is warm all his life.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 13:59:01 MST
From: Jim Moss <jkmoss@hotmail.com>
Subject: Warp Fields

When the first research was reported on warp fields a couple of years ago 
(1997?), it appeared that the negative mass requirements were beyond 
prohibitively large.  Now there's a new paper dealing with Alcubierre's work 
which shows a much smaller, and more achievable, negative energy 
requirement.  From Los Alamos' website:

http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9905084

Jim


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 17:20:08 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: size of Enterprise

At last!  Some real numnbers to work with.

> My original blueprints and Technical Manual are out of reach at the moment,
>but the blueprints for the 1701-A (Movies 1-6) Enterprise give the following
>numbers:
>
>
>  Overall Length  304.8m
> Overall Draft    71.3m
> Overall Beam    141.7m

Note: All formulas from http://library.advanced.org/20991/gather/formula/

> Saucer Length   146.3m
> Saucer Draft     32.9m
> Saucer Beam     141.7m (diameter)

Volume of an ellipsoid is 4/3*pi*r1*r2*r3

r1 and r2 are 1/2 length and 1/2 width, r3 is 1/2 height.  I would have
expected the saucer to be perfectly round, but lets use the numbers above.

Vol=4/3*pi* 73m * 16.5m * 71m (I'm rounding for simplicity).
That's about 358,000 m^3.

> Secondary Len.  121.0m
> Seconrary Draft  47.5m
> Secondary Beam   32.9m

I'll use the modified formula for the volume of a cylinder, since,
unexpectedly, the height and width of the secondary hull are not the same.

An ellipse area is pi*r1*r2 where r1 and r2 are half the width and height.

pi*24*16.5 = 1244 x length (for a cylinder) of 121 =
about 150,000m^3

> Nacelle Length  154.8m
> Nacelle Draft    18.3m
> Nacelle Beam     12.6m

Now the two nacelles, as above;

pi*9*6.5*155=28,500m^3 times 2 is

about 57,000 m^3

Total of 565,000 m^3 or 40,000 tons.  A tad smaller than I thought, but
pretty close to a "good" number for a 300 person crew.

I used that number to make an MT Consitution class.  Of course, with no
shields, phasers, photon torpedos, etc I had to improvise;  using TL17, I
put in 2 100 ton disintegrators to simulate phasers, one 100 ton meson to
simulate photon torps, and a few other items.

It's just for fun anyway.

Constitution Class Cruiser


CraftID:	Constitution Class Cruiser, TL 17, Mcr. 25591

Hull:	2667/6667, Disp=40000tons, Config=6SL, Armor=40H

	Unloaded=418025 tons,  Loaded=450540 tons

Power:	2801/5603, Primary Fusion=517230Mw, Duration=30 days

	Secondary Fusion=365065Mw, Consumption=173.8 Kl/Hr.

Loco:	453/907, Manuver=6G, 107/213, Jump=3,

	NOE=250kph, Cruise=3150kph, Top=4200kph, Agility=0

Commo:	Radio=System, LaserComm=System, Maser=System


Sensors:	ActEMS=Far Orbit, PassiveEMS=Interstellar,
EMSJammer=Planetary,
	LoPen=1km, HiPen=25km, Neutrino=10kw

	ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine

	PasObjScan=Simple, PasObjPin=Routine

	PasEngScan=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine


Off:	Meson=0Dx
         batt=010
         bear=010
	Disintegrator=070

                 batt=020

                 bear=020

Def:	DefDM +9, Nuclear Damper=A, Meson Screen=A, Black Globe=4


Control:	Computer=10/fibx3, Panel=Holodynamic Linked x1381

	Special=HeadsUpHolo x40, Special=LargeHoloDisp x3

	Basic Env, Basic LS, Ext LS, Air Locks x 24, Grav Plates, Inertial
Comp
Accomm:	Crew=80 (Bridge=3, Engineering=39, Maintanence=3, Gunners=4,

	Flight Crew=18, Command=11, Stewards=2)

	Sm. Stateroomsx26, Lg. Stateroomsx27, Sick Bay x 1,

	Gymnasium x 1, Laboratory x 4

	SubCraft=Shuttle (95 Ton)x6



Other:	Cargo=12541.5 (929 tons), Fuel=285336 kl.

	ObjSize=Large, EmLevel1=Moderate, EM Level2=Moderate



Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 17:21:36 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: RE: Jump Speed Time Chart

At 08:15 AM 6/11/99 -0700, you wrote:
>	IIRC, FASA (not necessarily the final word in such
>	matters, but my main source of such information)
>	treated warp number cubed as the factor of c. Thus,
>	warp 1 = c, warp 2 = 8c, warp 3 = 27 c, etc. How 
>	you calculated your warp speeds?
>
>Peez
>
>I followed the description/calculations of the warp speeds given in
the
>Technical Manual for the Enterprise.
>As such, the following information was derived. Please correct me if
I
>am wrong.

	Simple ... it was a canon speed. In "classic Trek" (way back when I
was paying 50 cents for a paperback book), effective speed was warp
number cubed. Then somewhere along the line in TNG (and I'm not into
it enough to remember where or why), they decided to change it to an
asymptotic function with Warp 10 as the limit.

	ObTrav: Well, lessee, the displacement ton changed size from CT to
MT and back again for TNE (14m^3 to 13.5m^3 and back), jump fuel
usage changed from CT to MT to TNE to T4, plasma/fusion weapons for
space combat went away for TNE, as did puny 50kg missiles as any kind
of threat, maneuver capabilities changed significantly between MT and
TNE, jump torpedoes were canon in an early version of CT, appeared in
one adventure, and then disappeared until TNE, antigravity thrusters
lost their ability to generate thrust when they became contra-grav in
TNE, and only got part of it back in T4, sensor ranges jumped from
TNE to T4, ....

	Has anybody thought of writing a "Nit Picker's Guide to Traveller?"
Or at least collating such inputs?
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 17:21:34 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S

At 01:47 PM 6/11/99 -0500, you wrote:
>I have a question.
>I take it that there are two versions/editions of FF&S.
>What are the differences and which is better to have?

	Original FF&S was written for TNE. FF&S 2Ed was written for T4. As
the co-author, my completely unbiased and neutral opinion is that the
best is an amalgam of both, as 2Ed suffers from typographical errors
and lack of playtesting. However, it's got some pretty neat features
(mostly related to spaceships and vehicles in general) of which I'm
pretty proud.
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 07:29:13 EST
From: Craig Brain <cjbrain@hotmail.com>
Subject: Dr Evil Monologue

I am looking for a copy of the monologue of Dr Evil from Austin Powers, 
where he describes his childhood in Rangoon, can somebody help?


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 18:51:12 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
Subject: I'm dead Jim...

Word just broadcast here in the US.  DeForest Kelley, Dr. McCoy of Star
Trek fame, has died.  No details as of yet.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 17:51:52 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: I'm dead Jim...

Where did you hear that?


"Harold D. Hale" wrote:

> Word just broadcast here in the US.  DeForest Kelley, Dr. McCoy of Star
> Trek fame, has died.  No details as of yet.
>
> Regards,
>
> Harold

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 19:07:42 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: More ST technobabble

>"  So is there a Alternative Drive listed in the FF&S book that 
>would be similar to Impulse drives? Remember they need to be able 
>to stop on a dime (or the interstellar equivalent.)"
>
>	I am entirely ignorant of FF&S, but I figured in my Star 
>	Trek/Traveller musings that the ST impulse engines were
>	just the same as Traveller drives (CT power plant + 
>	maneuver drive). I argued that the warp engines enabled
>	the ship to make hairy maneuvers by playing with space-time.
>	The warp engines use a completely different approach to FTL
>	travel, which makes conversion difficult. In a Traveller
>	setting, I would either make the warp drive entirely new 
>	technology (may or may not be able to interact with vessels 
>	in jump space) or just change them to jump drives.

  According to the ST:TNG Technical Manual and various other sources of 
treknobabble, the Federation ships, at least, use a fairly low thrust, 
high-efficiency plasma/fusion drive as "Impulse" engines. The Warp Drive is 
indeed a form of StutterWarp that multiplies the small real thrusts of the 
impulse engines into motion that the rest of the universe regards as 
superluminal.   Most of the big ships don't have enough REAL thrust to escape 
a serious gravity well, and are thus pretty much toast if they lose the warp 
drives. Recall how slow the Enterprise-E was moving inside the "nebula" in 
ST:Insurrection, not to mention both ships being virtual slaves to orbital 
mechanics in Wrath of Khan...

>"  And this is just the drives wait till I ask about the weapons. 

 The god-like nature of ST sensors and countermeasures render space combat 
nearly useless beyond visual range. My impression is that the weapons pay for 
their superluminal capabilities by being very short-ranged as well. Otherwise 
they are lasers and extremely agile AM warhead missiles. In Traveller terms, 
Star Trek ships are vastly more maneuverable but very short-ranged.
 Shields can, with a little subterfuge, be treated like White Globes.

GC

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:07:47 -0700
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: I'm dead Jim...

>Where did you hear that?

It is on Paramount's site.

Suz

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #736
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 12 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 737



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: I'm dead Jim...
Re: I'm dead Jim...
RE: Jump Speed Time Chart
Re: I'm dead Jim...
RE: Jump Speed Time Chart
Re: size of Enterprise
jesse's site
Re: jesse's site 
Re: I'm dead Jim...
Re: jesse's site 
Re: jesse's site 
RE: jesse's site 
Battle-rider Support Duration
Re: size of Enterprise
Contragrav Website
re: Final ST ship dimensions
RE: Star Trek ships
RE: Jump Speed Time Chart
Re: Missiles and KE kills.
Re: Final ST ship dimensions
Monomolecules
Re: Battle-rider Support Duration

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 16:28:11 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: I'm dead Jim...

It's being reported by Reuters as well.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/re/story.html?s=v/nm/19990611/re/entert
ainment_kelley.html

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
People are more violently opposed to fur than to leather because
  it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs.

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Suz Dollar <websuz@worldnet.att.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: I'm dead Jim...


> >Where did you hear that?
>
> It is on Paramount's site.
>
> Suz
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 19:31:12 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: I'm dead Jim...

Talisman writes:

>>Where did you hear that?
>
>It is on Paramount's site.

   I heard it while watching the evening news, however, www.startrek.com 
carries the following message:

"Star Trek fans the world over today mourn the passing of DeForest
Kelley. Mr. Kelley died today at the Motion Picture Country Hospital.
Check here for more details as they become available."

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 22:59:14 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: RE: Jump Speed Time Chart

In ST:TOS Warp speed was c cubed.

In ST:TNG I think it was someones idea of a joke to increase this by ten
percent, so warp speeds in TNG are c to the power of three and one third. (After
warp 9 they go exponential)

Note: The Star Trek Encyclopedia lists the D7 at 228 metres long.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 19:57:19 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: I'm dead Jim...

More details from E! Online...full story at:
http://www.eonline.com/News/Items/0,1,4899,00.html?fd.thirds.bl


			Goodbye, Dr. McCoy 

                       by Joal Ryan
                       June 11, 1999, 3:15 p.m. PT 

                       DeForest Kelley, who as Star Trek's folksy
                       spaceman Dr. Leonard "Bones" McCoy frequently
                       issued the dire (and trademark), "He's dead, Jim,"
                       diagnosis, died today at the Motion Picture and
                       Television Fund Hospital in Woodland Hills,
                       California. He was 79. 

                       Kelley was pronounced dead at 12:15 p.m. Longtime
                       friend and producer A.C. Lyles told reporters the
                       star had been confined to the hospital for three
                       months, suffering from a "lingering illness." 

                       Kelley is the first major member of the USS
                       Enterprise's original on-air crew to pass away.
                       Franchise creator Gene Roddenberry died in 1991.
                       Actor Mark Lenard, a familiar face in the series
                       and movies as Mr. Spock's Vulcan father, died in
                       1996. 

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 19:41:42 -0500
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org>
Subject: RE: Jump Speed Time Chart

At 08:15 AM 6/11/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> on Thu, 10 Jun 1999 14:43:00
>-0400
>
>I am not saying that this is canon, I just based the calculations on
>information provided.
>
>Clifford Linehan
>cnl@sfamipec.com
>
>
The numbers Clifford is using come from The Next Generation Tech Manual.
The formula (warp factor)^3 gave you the FTL for the old series. When Next
Generation came out they decided that warp speeds need to be faster they
came up with a new formula. The new formula has never been released but
people have made guesses based the numbers on the chart.


Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com
ICQ# 33152095

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 17:53:15 -0700
From: "Wayne" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: size of Enterprise

> Constitution Class Cruiser
> 
> CraftID: Constitution Class Cruiser, TL 17, Mcr. 25591
> Hull: 2667/6667, Disp=40000tons, Config=6SL, Armor=40H
> Unloaded=418025 tons,  Loaded=450540 tons
> Power: 2801/5603, Primary Fusion=517230Mw, Duration=30 days
> Secondary Fusion=365065Mw, Consumption=173.8 Kl/Hr.
> Loco: 453/907, Manuver=6G, 107/213, Jump=3,
> NOE=250kph, Cruise=3150kph, Top=4200kph, Agility=0
> Commo: Radio=System, LaserComm=System, Maser=System
> Sensors: ActEMS=Far Orbit, PassiveEMS=Interstellar,
> EMSJammer=Planetary,
> LoPen=1km, HiPen=25km, Neutrino=10kw
> ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine
> PasObjScan=Simple, PasObjPin=Routine
> PasEngScan=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine
> Off: Meson=0Dx
>          batt=010
>          bear=010
> Disintegrator=070
>                  batt=020
>                  bear=020
> Def: DefDM +9, Nuclear Damper=A, Meson Screen=A, Black Globe=4
> Control: Computer=10/fibx3, Panel=Holodynamic Linked x1381
> Special=HeadsUpHolo x40, Special=LargeHoloDisp x3
> Basic Env, Basic LS, Ext LS, Air Locks x 24, Grav Plates, Inertial
> Comp
> Accomm: Crew=80 (Bridge=3, Engineering=39, Maintanence=3, Gunners=4,
> Flight Crew=18, Command=11, Stewards=2)
> Sm. Stateroomsx26, Lg. Stateroomsx27, Sick Bay x 1,
> Gymnasium x 1, Laboratory x 4
> SubCraft=Shuttle (95 Ton)x6
> Other: Cargo=12541.5 (929 tons), Fuel=285336 kl.
> ObjSize=Large, EmLevel1=Moderate, EM Level2=Moderate
> 
> Peter H. Brenton

Any chance of someone putting this in HG stats?

Wayne Ewart (CT/HG Templer wanna-be)
wewart@home.com
ICQ 22113294

Give a man fire, and he is warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he is warm all his life.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 17:58:21 -0700
From: "Wayne" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: jesse's site

Can any one tell me how to find Jesse's web site. My computer crashed late
weekend and I lost eveything on it. I would like to have some of Jesse's art
back up on my desk top.

Thanks
Wayne Ewart (CT/HG Templer wanna-be)
wewart@home.com
ICQ 22113294

Give a man fire, and he is warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he is warm all his life.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 21:25:56 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: jesse's site 

> Can any one tell me how to find Jesse's web site. My computer crashed late
> weekend and I lost eveything on it. I would like to have some of Jesse's art
> back up on my desk top.

There's a direct link from my page:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jamstar/traveller

Click on Roger Barr's Campaign

<howbout that.. 2 plugs in one!!!>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 21:32:31 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: I'm dead Jim...

In a message dated 6/11/99 7:31:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
hdhale@mindspring.com writes:

<< 
 "Star Trek fans the world over today mourn the passing of DeForest
 Kelley. Mr. Kelley died today at the Motion Picture Country Hospital.
 Check here for more details as they become available." >>
I know that the world has been *Star Trekked* to death lately but for a first 
gen Trekker like me this is a sad day...
BobS....

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 18:40:51 -0700
From: "Wayne" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: jesse's site 

> 
> There's a direct link from my page:
> 
> http://home.earthlink.net/~jamstar/traveller
> 
> Click on Roger Barr's Campaign

> Keven

Thank you
Wayne Ewart (CT/HG Templer wanna-be)
wewart@home.com
ICQ 22113294

Give a man fire, and he is warm for the night.
Set a man on fire, and he is warm all his life.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 18:51:28
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: jesse's site 

At 06:40 PM 6/11/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Wayne Ewart (CT/HG Templer wanna-be)
>wewart@home.com
>ICQ 22113294
>
>Give a man fire, and he is warm for the night.
>Set a man on fire, and he is warm all his life.

With that .sig, you have to be One of Us.  Go to the donut place directly
northwest of where you are sitting right now.  Point to an eclair, and say
"Gimme a Pepperoi Pizza."  Sit at the table closest to the employee door,
and hum something classical.  We'll be in contact.


- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 20:38:01 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: jesse's site 

Direct link is:

http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm

Glad to see you like it enough to get the link back :)

Thanks!
Jesse




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Wayne
> Sent: Friday, June 11, 1999 6:41 PM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: jesse's site 
> 
> 
> > 
> > There's a direct link from my page:
> > 
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~jamstar/traveller
> > 
> > Click on Roger Barr's Campaign
> 
> > Keven
> 
> Thank you
> Wayne Ewart (CT/HG Templer wanna-be)
> wewart@home.com
> ICQ 22113294
> 
> Give a man fire, and he is warm for the night.
> Set a man on fire, and he is warm all his life.
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 23:31:25 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Battle-rider Support Duration

Just how long would a battle-rider expect to support its crew and power
plant, upon separation from the tender?

Would a battle-rider's crew have permanent quarters aboard the
battle-rider, or aboard the tender?  If the battle-rider's crew normally
quarters aboard the tender, what kind of short-term quarters should the
battle-rider carry?

If the crew of battle-riders normally quarter aboard the tender, do the
calculations that imply that battle-riders are, ton for ton, more
effective than battleships include the potential need for dual quarters
for the crew?  Also, how much fuel do battle-riders carry in such a
setting?  Enough for two weeks?  More?

If, OTOH, battle-riders provide the quarters for their crew for extended
periods of time, do the calculations allow for extended operations (more
than two weeks [Standard life support])?  After all, AuricTech normally
designs warships with a 26-week food endurance, and Extended life
support.  Can battle-riders keep up with this, and still maintain their
system ton-for-ton superiority over battleships?

Either way, are battle-riders as good a deal in post-CT versions as they
are in CT?

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 02:04:30 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: size of Enterprise

"Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> writes:

>> Saucer Length   146.3m
>> Saucer Draft     32.9m
>> Saucer Beam     141.7m (diameter)
>
>Volume of an ellipsoid is 4/3*pi*r1*r2*r3
>
>r1 and r2 are 1/2 length and 1/2 width, r3 is 1/2 height.  I would have
>expected the saucer to be perfectly round, but lets use the numbers above.

 The extra 5 meters is due to the Impulse Engines protruding slightly from 
the rear of the saucer. The saucer IS circular aside from that...

GC

For those who think Trek isn't applicable to Traveller, I would point out 
that the ST:TNG deckplans for the Enterprise-D (yes, they exist) make a 
pretty good space station. So do the original set for the TOS Enterprise. I'm 
still waiting for someone to do a proper plan for DS9's Promenade, though.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 11:31:52 +0200
From: Andreas Hartmann <Andreas1.Hartmann@stud.uni-regensburg.de>
Subject: Contragrav Website

Hello travellers,

I found a site with some papers (including the original one from the
russian scientist I talked about) at:

http://www.gravity.org

Best regards,
 Andreas                          mailto:Andreas1.Hartmann@stud.uni-regensburg.de

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1999 18:29:55 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Final ST ship dimensions

Joe Kirby <warlord@means.net> wrote:
>  Constitution Class Heavy Cruiser (HOOD)
<snip>
>Closed structure (I think any suggestions)
Close Structure - yup..

>  D-7 Klingon Cruiser
<snip>
>Wedge Structure (I think again)
Yep

>  Romulan War Bird
>Displacement: 5,200 tons
>Length        136 m
>Width         199 m
>Height         47 m
>Wedge Structure?
Disk or Flattened Sphere (it's a disk with wings and engines)

>  All but the War bird will have the minimal armor for the hull. The War
>bird will have more armor which it retained from the Pre-Warp era.

IIRC the TOS Bird of prey died really easily compared to the D7?

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 10:16:20 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: RE: Star Trek ships

At 10:17 AM 10/06/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>Leonard Erickson writes:
>">   Why are they so Huge? I know they were much bigger 
>	then the standard Star
>> ships for traveller but not that big.
>> Hmmm
>
>Ever get a look at the old Franz Joseph Designs blueprints for the
>Enterprise? There's a *lot* of ship there."
>
>	That depends on what you mean by a *lot* of ship. I am not
>	familiar with Mr. Joseph, but the saucer section is listed 
>	as 127 m in diameter. With an average thickness of 20 m,
>	this would make the saucer section 253,354 m^3, which
>	is 18,767 Traveller displacement tons. If the whole vessel
>	is 50,000 dtons, that is a *lot* of ship, particularly if 
>	you realize that very little of it is fuel. However, it is 
>	only 3% of the 1,600,000 tons suggested in the previous 
>	post (if my clculations are correct).
>
>Peez
>
        I have the "Star Trek Spaceflight Chronology, and given the
dimensions and picture therein was able to deduce that the ST:TMP Enterprise
was ~62500 HG dtons.  Further, presuming that antimatter reduces power-plant
size by 50% and jump-fuel by 85% (arbitraty plucked-from-air figures that
myself and my group agreed to) and extending the missle USP table to H to
allow for photon-torpedoes and treating phaser arrays as a spinal meson and
several dozen PAWs bays, it was  a mean little ship.  I also hand-waved that
photon torpedoes are not susceptible to nuclear dampners and recieved a -6
on the damage result table (ala nuclear weapon).  Given that a single
torpedo was USP A, however, this functionally equiv'd to a nuclear weapon
with DM-12...  Iiiiick.  About an even fight for a Tigress.

        The ST:ISFS Excelsior worked out to ~85,000 HG dtons, and was as
mean as the day is long.  In a straight-out fight, Excelsior beat Enterprise
4/5.

        The ST:WOK Reliant worked out to ~30,000 HG dtons, IIRC, and I could
not reproduce its combat effectiveness based on the movie.  Khan's,
therefore, intitial sucesses could only be accounted by firing from his
surprise postion and treating the Enterprise as being effectively "in
reserve" with shields down for the first combat round.  At which point she
behaves like an egg with a hammer.

        And, yes, I did have waaaaaay too much time on my hands in high-school.

        --Michel
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 10:16:21 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: RE: Jump Speed Time Chart

At 02:43 PM 10/06/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>	IIRC, FASA (not necessarily the final word in such
>	matters, but my main source of such information)
>	treated warp number cubed as the factor of c. Thus,
>	warp 1 = c, warp 2 = 8c, warp 3 = 27 c, etc. How 
>	you calculated your warp speeds?
>
>Peez
>
        This was also in the Star Trek Writers Guide.  IIRC, transwarp is a
*cube*, which is *rude*.

        --Michel
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		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 10:16:20 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Missiles and KE kills.

At 06:35 PM 10/06/1999 +0100, you wrote:
>Following the current discussion, I was looking at the Special Supplement,
>and noticed that for each 300mm/turn combined velocity (30000 km / turn)
>(the vector from combining the ship's vector and the missiles vector) an
>automatic damage point is scored.
>
>Should this really be:
>
>Total vector 	Damage
>>300mm		+1
>>600mm		+4
>>900mm		+9
>>1200mm		+16
>>+300mm		+(vector/300)^2
>
>Would this model the KE effect more accurately?
>
>Dom
>

        Yes, it would.  However, the problem you get into is that the engine
size and fuel requirements do not follow the correct progression either.  I
don't think you could *build* your +16 KE-K warhead if they were done
correctly.  The other issue is the arbitrary cap on fusion and fission
warhead sizes.  Given that, IIRC, detonated a 50+ Mt device in the late 60's
(and scared themselves silly in the process), I don't understand why space
weapons wouldn't be in the 100Mt range and up....

        However, in a CT game, its a great way to scare players....

        --Michel
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		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 10:22:22 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Final ST ship dimensions

At 02:36 AM 11/06/1999 -0500, you wrote:
> For the Power plants I will of course use Matter/Anti matter. For the
>ships drives well that's where it gets sticky. 
> For the ST sublight Drives which they called Impulse engines. Well there
>seems to be no drive like this listed (I know it is near Inertia less. And
>they can achieve speeds nearing the speed of light) I was thinking
>Stutterwarp at first, but that is what I am going to use for the Warp Engines.

        Impules engines are actually "Nuclear Impulse Engines".   Basically
laser-crushing deturium reactor with a nozzle for the blast to escape to
produce thrust.  Instead of a sustained burn, it works like a pulse jet
engine...  rate of feed of the deturium pellets regulates speed.  

>  So is there a Alternative Drive listed in the FF&S book that would be
>similar to Impulse drives? Remember they need to be able to stop on a dime
>(or the interstellar equivalent.)

        The interstellar equiv of a dime is several hundreds of
kilometeres...  =)

>  And this is just the drives wait till I ask about the weapons. LOL.
>
> Thanks and sorry for the length

        No problem...  I ran this sort of a game in the late '80s...  see my
post on how I handled the weapons.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Michel R. Vaillancourt
		misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
		ICQ # 31172292
	Dad, Husband, MIS Manager, Reservist, 
				Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
		"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
		Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 14:36:21 +0000
From: Bryn Monnery <uccabdm@ucl.ac.uk>
Subject: Monomolecules

>>> In a message dated 99-05-21 07:35:29 EDT, you write:
>>>
>>> << These already exist. They are called "crystals". I've handled a single
>>>  molecule of silicon that was 6 feet long and a couple of inches thick! >>
>>>
>>> crystals are mono-moleculer?  I thought that they were organized
molecules.
>>
>>Crystals of any element are one big molecule. Crystals of compounds get
>>a bit more complicated.
>> 
>Urm - no they aren't.  Iodine crystals are made up of individual iodine
>molecules.  Xenon crystals are made up of individual xenon atoms.
>Carbon crystals may be made up of individual carbon molecules (e.g.
>buckyballs) or giant molecular lattices (e.g. graphite or diamond).

This depends on the type of bond forming the lattice. If the forces are
covalent than it is a single large molecule (by definition).

If they are something else (e.g. electrostatic or hydrogen bonding) then
they are a crystal. 

So:

Diamond is covalent so a big molecule, graphite is layers of macromolecules
electrostatically attracted to form a laminate type structure (not quite
either), Ice and table salt are held together by hydrogen bonding and
electrostatic bonding (repectively) and so are not monomolecular.

Mono-edged weapons I always assumed were specially grown crystals of diamond.

Mono-filament is a mystery, perhaps a coiled bundle of strands of a plastic
like poly(acetylene)... (PolyAc is very ammusing in its properties, it is
totally ridgid until a small ammount of a halogen is introduced, then it
becomes conductive and ductile, when the halogen is removed from the
atmosphere it becomes ridgid in its new shape.).

Theres an idea, the filament is kept in a tape measure type dispenser with
a trace of chlorine in it, it is flexible when dispensed but becomes ridgid
within 5 minutes. My PCs could have lots of fun with that ;-)

Bryn
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/9292/UK.htm

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 10:57:27 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Battle-rider Support Duration

At 11:31 PM 11/06/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>Just how long would a battle-rider expect to support its crew and power
>plant, upon separation from the tender?
>

        I *personally* have always built the attack ships as one-week
endurance vessels with minimal crew accomidations and the mothership as a
jump-capable base complete with maint facilities and rec-decks.

        --michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
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------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #737
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 13 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 738



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Jump Speed Time Chart
RE: Jump Speed Time Chart
Re: Battle-rider Support Duration
Re: FF&S
Re: Battle-rider Support Duration
UK FLGS Second Hand Traveller stuff
Adjudant
Free Ports & Drop Freighters[long](was Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies)
GT Drop Freighter
Re: Battle-rider Support Duration
A favor to ask...(OT)
RE: A favor to ask...(OT)
Starship Mortality
Qbasic (Slightly OT)
deckplans and stats wanted....
[OT] Re: Rocket Bike chem question
Re: [OT] Re: Rocket Bike chem question
test
RE: Jump Speed Time Chart
Warbots in the Federation
Re: Biological space vessels
Re: [OT] Re: Rocket Bike chem question
Re: Monomolecules

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 10:57:28 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: RE: Jump Speed Time Chart

At 10:16 AM 12/06/1999 -0300, you wrote:
>At 02:43 PM 10/06/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>>	IIRC, FASA (not necessarily the final word in such
>>	matters, but my main source of such information)
>>	treated warp number cubed as the factor of c. Thus,
>>	warp 1 = c, warp 2 = 8c, warp 3 = 27 c, etc. How 
>>	you calculated your warp speeds?
>>
>>Peez
>>
>        This was also in the Star Trek Writers Guide.  IIRC, transwarp is a
>*cube*, which is *rude*.
>
>        --Michel

        I've gotta proof read before I post...  what I meant to say was TOS
was Warp Rating ^2 = c multiplier and Transwarp was Rating ^3 = c multiple.

        --michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
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------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:15:16 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: RE: Jump Speed Time Chart

> In ST:TOS Warp speed was c cubed.
> 
> In ST:TNG I think it was someones idea of a joke to increase this by ten
> percent, so warp speeds in TNG are c to the power of three and one third. (After
> warp 9 they go exponential)

IIRC, the ST RPG (the old one) TNG supplement explained that ST:TOS 
had c cubed for warp speed, and that ST:TNG had c to the power of 
five.

Carlos

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 10:15:55 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Battle-rider Support Duration

- ----------
> From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Battle-rider Support Duration
> Date: Saturday, 12 June, 1999 9:57 AM
> 
> At 11:31 PM 11/06/1999 -0500, you wrote:
> >Just how long would a battle-rider expect to support its crew and power
> >plant, upon separation from the tender?
> >
> 
>         I *personally* have always built the attack ships as one-week
> endurance vessels with minimal crew accomidations and the mothership as a
> jump-capable base complete with maint facilities and rec-decks.
> 

I've tended to go the other way in my GT designs.  I build them with full
living spaces, but without the luxuries (no theaters, etc.).  Those go in
the tender (including the swimming pool :-)  the tender does get the
long-term maintenance modules, but barring the need for new spare parts,
the riders are fairly autonomous.

My logic is this:

1) the time it takes to move crews from tender to rider and prep the ship
for launch could be tactically significant in a few cases

2) they may end up spending several weeks patrolling a system, sometimes
dispersed from their tender

3) some riders might be used as flagships of planetary navies, call it a
strategic reserve for the IN. (I think I got that idea here.  Anyone
remember it?)

It doesn't seem to compromise performance much.  Swapping all the
staterooms for half as many bunkrooms typically buys less than 0.1 g of
acceleration or a 2% increase in armor.  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 17:31:05 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S

On 11 Jun, Thomas Vickers <redroach@flex.net> wrote:
> I have a question.
> I take it that there are two versions/editions of FF&S.
> What are the differences and which is better to have?

FF&S supports TNE
FF&S2 supports T4

In theory FF&S2 has some improvments to the design sequences,
I also find it a bit easier to use, especially with Andy Akins
spreadsheet.
However...
FF&S2 suffers from lots of errata, especially the formulae
(what did you expect, it is an Imperium Games product)
but all this can be downloaded from the net.
FF&S has lots of pages of text explaining stuuf and giving
the background to tech. IMO it's a much better read and still
a great Traveller reference, even if you never design a single
thing.
FF&S also has more support for varient technology, ie stuff
only used by Traveller Heretics.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 18:10:23 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Battle-rider Support Duration

On 12 Jun, Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> wrote:
> Just how long would a battle-rider expect to support its crew and power
> plant, upon separation from the tender?

I think that there is a lot to be gained by making the riders self
contained ships:

They are interchangeable, you can use the latest designs on older tenders.

You can use them for extended scouting and system patroll operations.

They can double as heavy SBDs, instantly meaning that there will be lots
of them around (so volume production benefits), every TL15 shipyard
will have lots of experience maintaining them, after you lose one lot
you can call at the nearest planet, collect half a dozen SDBs and be back
in action.

Indeed, it has been theorised that the adoption of a 20kt battle rider
would be the main driving force behind the design of 25kt SDBs by
planetary governments. :-)

Against this, I'm sure there are some slight benefits in making them
limited duration. Not under High Guard though (unless you define
limited duration as one day and do away with the staterooms altogether
or have hot bunking, neither of which is allowed by the rules.)

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 20:32:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: UK FLGS Second Hand Traveller stuff

I have just visited my FLGS and I'm not sure if I regret it or not (the
credit limit is closer now ;-) )

Best Books and Games in Liverpool, UK, has just got a lot of new stock (2nd
hand material) for Traveller.

They have all the rules versions from CT to MT to TNE, plus some T4.

CT material - Rulesbooks 1 through 5, Most Adventures, a lot of JTAS
issues, Most Digests post 14 (I bought the rest), a selection of
supplements, Striker box set, a selection of Gamelords material.
MT material - Nearly all books by GDW including folio adventures, all MT
Journals.
TNE - looked like most things.
plus a copy of 2nd Ed Imperium (GBP20, USD would be 30 ish).

Most of this seemed near mint.

The copy of Invasion Earth (GBP18) I bought had a few counters punched out
in ziplock bags, but was otherwise mint, as were the other books (Nomads of
the World Ocean, Bk 8 Robots).

They do do mail order and are on email at cardvark@hotmail.com

Hope this is of interest

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 18:21:05 EDT
From: AveNelso@aol.com
Subject: Adjudant

Does anyone know whether the Adjudant Fanzine is still published?   I had a 
chance to buy a few copies a couple of months ago and waited too long and 
missed it.   Is anyone familiar with the quality of the zine?

			Dave Nelson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 00:32:15 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Free Ports & Drop Freighters[long](was Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies)

The inclusion of jump masking in the OTU (GT and T5) adds a significant amount
of time to each journey (on average).  This is very inconvenient to the shipping
companies - time is money.  The cost is passed on to the shippers and customers.
This in turn leads to uneven demand for the shipping services, leading to
over-capacity at one time of year and under-capacity later in the same year. Add
this on top of seasonal demands for trade and you get a chaotic system. This is
bad for business and bad for trade.  

Standard economics says reduce the price and demand will rise - even out the
flow and prices will fall as costs will be more manageable. As trade is the
lifeblood of the 3I everyone stands to gain from an increase in trade flows.

Shipping companies will try and find strategies to avoid the effects of jump
masking. A couple of obvious ones are:

1) Schedule irregular visits to masked systems to coincide with mask minima. 
This requires over-capacity in the system and may not tie in with local needs. 
This leads to conflicting requirements between shipping companies and their
customers.

2) Schedule long-distance trade to flow along different routes at different
times of year to minimise jump masking.  This is logistically very difficult to
do, as one systems mask minima may coincide with the next systems mask maxima. 
Add to this the uncertainties of the schedule due to uncertain jump times and
this is logistically very difficult indeed.  Again this requires over-capacity
in the system.

So it seems that there is only a relatively small gain to be made from avoidance
strategies.

So looking instead at acceptance strategies, Far Trader suggests carrying
Lighters, or rendezvousing with Lighters to reduce this time. [Small ships to
ferry crew, cargo, passengers and fuel between main world & the jump points.]

I have come up with two additional methods so far that offer improved time &
cost savings over the use of Lighters: Free Ports and Drop Freighters.

Free Ports: Establish a very high high-port just beyond the stars 100D limit
that is not masked with respect to any system that it trades with (i.e. it is
"free" of masking). It is a rare system indeed where this is not possible. Place
it as close to the main-world as possible and make its position freely
available.
 
Benefits: Shippers get a standard shipping price all year round.
Shipping companies get a much-reduced time between jumps - leading to many more
jumps per year, ships require a smaller m-drive - increasing cargo space.  (The
m-drive is only needed to match velocities with other systems). Both of these
lead to more profit.
The 3I sees an increase in trade flows.

Shippers, shipping companies and the 3I alike would support this. Shipping
companies would probably even agree to pay part of the cost of the free port. 
On a high volume route they may even establish their own.  Any system that was
eager to trade, or depended on trade to survive, should be very willing to
construct one. If there are multiple outposts in a system, the first one to
develop a free port would have a competitive edge.

Disadvantages: Fuel charges are higher (750 Cr/DT). Increased lighterage fees
for transits to the main world have to be paid (40Cr/DT). Both of these reduce
the shipping companies profit, but overall they are way ahead of the previous
situation.

Drop Freighters: To maximise profits you need to maximise jumps per year, which
means reducing time in-system (i.e. loading and unloading time and time spent
manouvering). Also the most expensive part of the ship is the jump drive - this
is the part you need to make best use of.  So why not have a separate jump drive
and freighter section. 

No longer do you need to spend ages manouvering down to the high-port, sitting
idly in port while cargo is unloaded & loaded, and then manouvering back to the
jump point.  You jump in, drop off the inbound freighter section, dock with the
outbound freighter section, match velocities with the target system, and jump
out.  Total time in-system less than 8 hours.  Total jumps per year around 48! -
At least for the jump drive section.

So instead of using lighters to take your cargo down to the main-world, the
entire cargo & fuel section of your ship is the lighter.

Your start-up costs are greater because you need to buy multiple cargo sections
for each jump section (one in each system and one in jump). However cargo
sections are relatively cheap. The expensive bits are the jump drive and to a
lesser extent the fuel tanks.  So overall you are ahead of the game.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 00:39:22 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: GT Drop Freighter

Stones Throw Shipyards are proud to announce the launch of the first of their
revolutionary new Drop Freighter ™ range.  With this design we take established
wisdom and turn it on its head.  Rather than have the jump drive, the most
expensive part of your investment sat idling in-system, along with the rest of
the ship, we free it up to carry on jumping. 

Simply drop the inbound freighter off, connect to the outbound freighter, and
jump.  The freighter ambles down to the high-port, unloads, loads, fuels, &
ambles back up to the jump point, taking a leisurely 13 days to do so. So not
only does it make more money but logistically it is a dream too.

Yes, you have to buy three freighter sections for every jump section. Yes, your
initial investment is higher, but your return on that investment is also
significantly higher. Take a good look at the design and the illustrative
economics, we know you will be impressed.

These ships are designed specifically with the needs of the established shipping
corporations in mind.  On established routes these ships can increase your
margins significantly. They are strictly for the big boys in shipping.  Free
traders need not apply. 

Jump Section:

GTL 10, 150 DT USL, DR 100, 1 Turret (2 360Mj Lasers, 1 Sand-caster), Command
Bridge, Engineering, Utility, 8 Manouver, 95 Jump, 8 Staterooms, 1 Vehicle Bay
(4 DT Lifeboat), Standard Software.

Emass 600.2, LMass 614.2, Cost MCr 313.6, HP 18750, Hull Size Modifier:+8
Accel 0.52 Gs (0.53 Gs empty), Jump 2, Air Speed  0

Freighter Section:

GTL 10, 3000 DT USL, DR 100, Basic Bridge, Engineering, 6 Utility, 113 Manouver,
630 Fuel, 7 Staterooms, 1 Vehicle Bay (4DT Lifeboat), 5 External Cradle
(capacity 625 stons), Cradled Vehicle (150 DT Jump Tender), 2210 Cargo, standard
software.

Emass 1861.3, LMass 12912.8, Cost MCr 140, HP 120000, Hull Size Mod+11
Accel 0.35 Gs (2.43 Gs empty), Jump 2, Air Speed  0

Economics comparison: 

Drop freighter: 
  Jumps per year: 48 !,  Profit per trip: 48%,  ROI: 17%, Breakeven load: 68%

Standard 3000DT Freighter: 
  Jumps per year 30, Profit/trip 11%, ROI 5.5%, Breakeven 90%.

Why settle for anything less?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 16:56:45 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Battle-rider Support Duration

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Battle-rider Support Duration
>
>Just how long would a battle-rider expect to support its crew and power
>plant, upon separation from the tender?

  I'd suggest a normal starship quarters allocation (and none on the tender
for those rider crews), otherwise the riders are hosed not only if their
tneder buys it (which is a real possibility) but even if prolonged in-system
operations are envisaged. It also prohibits rider strategic deployment sans
tender by any method.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 19:54:15 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: A favor to ask...(OT)

Hi;

My hardrive crashed, and I lost all of the various interesting websites on 
this list. Can anyone who has any, please E mail me them,

Seth

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 18:23:30 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: A favor to ask...(OT)

Hyphen's page of Traveller links at:

http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw/travlink.htm

This site should be considered the ultimate Traveller link resource.  I've
yet to find a page that has more links.  The only bad news is that he hasn't
updated it in awhile, but I can forgive him :)

Best,
Jesse




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of
> Sethkimmel@aol.com
> Sent: Saturday, June 12, 1999 4:54 PM
> To: S1889@onelist.com
> Cc: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: A favor to ask...(OT)
>
>
> Hi;
>
> My hardrive crashed, and I lost all of the various interesting
> websites on
> this list. Can anyone who has any, please E mail me them,
>
> Seth
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 23:13:10 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Starship Mortality

        Hi, everyone!
        Firstly, I apologize for the cross-posting, particularly to vampires.

        I am hacking away at my TNEC milieu again and am working on
encounter tables and maintainance system there-for for starships.  The idea
is that I want the odds of a given ship being encountered actually to have
some basis on the number of that class of ship actually in existance.

        Now, here's what I am trying to figure out....  from the moment that
a design stops production and the last one glides out of the spacedock, how
long till they're all gone from accidents, actions or old age?  Given that
the amortization period for a loan on a starship is 40 years, there would
seem to be some presumption in the 3I that a ship will live that long.  I am
trying to work out an "erosion percentage" that I can apply to the total
number of ships in a given class in peace-time and say "this many are no
longer in service this year".

        How is everyone else doing it?  Or is no one else worrying about it?  =)

        What I am premising on is that after 40 years peace-time operations,
75% of  ships will still be in operation.  For every 5 years after the first
40, 75% of ships are still in operation.  In "old" millieu like the 3I, it
would be concievable to have 100 or 150 year-old starships for a
monsterously mass-produced design.  Does my failure/ survial rates seem high
or low?

        Can someone with a better grasp on math than I have figure out what
the formula would be to come up with the results I am looking for on a
yearly scale....  So that each year of the first 40, enough ships are out of
service that at the end of 40 iterations 25% of the original number are OOS?
And then a like variant for the subsequent 5-year scale.  I'd really
appreciate it.

        I am getting VB6 next week, and once I have these formulae, I think
I'll be creating an admin program to handle this and draw up encounter
tables automagically.  Otherwise, keeping track of 25-odd ship classes is
going to get annoying.
        
        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 21:08:17 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Qbasic (Slightly OT)

I am working on my own sector generator for traveller.  I am writing the program in
QBasic 7.1 and I cannot seem to get it to recognize some of the labels.  Anybody
know anything about QBasic 7.1?

- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: 12 Jun 99 19:58:09 PDT
From: erik hanson <kodiak23@netscape.net>
Subject: deckplans and stats wanted....

any happen to have the stats, plans, etc, for the tukera longliner handy?
would deeply appreciate them for a campaign i'm planning....            
thanks

____________________________________________________________________
Get your own FREE, personal Netscape WebMail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 20:20:31 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: [OT] Re: Rocket Bike chem question

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> If there's native life, it'll find oxygen to be as dangerous as we find
> fluorine. And water will be a hazardous acid to them. They'll also find
> our lighting to be "strange".

Pardon me for asking such an elementary question, but what, exactly,
does "Ph" mean?  In my Chem book, I find the usual highschool chemistry
Ph chart with H2O having a value of 7 (neutral) on the 14 point scale --
with everything below 7 being a progressively more corrosive acid, and
everything above 7 being a progressively more caustic base.  Is "Ph" a
term that assumes Earth atmosphere/characteristics, or does H2O simply
move +/- from neutral on the same scale, if present in a non-terran atmosphere?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 23:07:23 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Rocket Bike chem question

Hypercleats wrote:
> 
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >
> > If there's native life, it'll find oxygen to be as dangerous as we find
> > fluorine. And water will be a hazardous acid to them. They'll also find
> > our lighting to be "strange".
> 
> Pardon me for asking such an elementary question, but what, exactly,
> does "Ph" mean?  In my Chem book, I find the usual highschool chemistry
> Ph chart with H2O having a value of 7 (neutral) on the 14 point scale --
> with everything below 7 being a progressively more corrosive acid, and
> everything above 7 being a progressively more caustic base.  Is "Ph" a
> term that assumes Earth atmosphere/characteristics, or does H2O simply
> move +/- from neutral on the same scale, if present in a non-terran > atmosphere?

pH is an acronym for "potential Hydrogen"; as far as I can tell, pH is
not Terracentric.  Simply put, pH measures the level of positive
hydrogen ions (hereafter H+) in a solution.  It is an exponential scale,
with pH 1 equalling a concentration of H+ of 1 x 10^-1, and pH 14
equalling a concentration of H+ of 1 x 10^-14.  The greater the
concentration of H+ (low pH numbers), the more acidic a solution is. 
The lower the concentration of H+ (high pH numbers), the more basic
[alkaline] a solution is.  Pure water has a pH of 7 (1 x 10^-7 H+), and
is considered "neutral."  The larger the deviation from this level, the
more corrosive/more caustic the solution is.

ObTrav:  If modern Terran industry is any indication, then industrial
taints in an atmosphere will tend to cause lower pH levels in
precipitation and subsequently in bodies of water (a.k.a. "acid rain"). 
This can lead to all sorts of fun, as PCs have to deal with the
increased wear and tear on their equipment, as a result of exposure to
acids (apparently, there have been instances of acid precipitation in
North America with pH levels approximating those in human stomach
acids).


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 00:53:35 -0700
From: "Wayne" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: test

test test test 
Is the list doen?
I have not gotten any mail all day

Wayne
wewart@home.com
icq22113294

Give a man fire and he is warm for the night.
Set a man on fire and he is warm all his life.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 20:53:59 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Jump Speed Time Chart

 Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> wrote:
        This was also in the Star Trek Writers Guide.  IIRC, transwarp is a
>*cube*, which is *rude*.

If it's a *cube* doesn't that make it a Borg?

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 10:01:04 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Warbots in the Federation

'Some Hiver [Hive Federation] armies have consisted entirely of warbots,
with no living members'.
CT Bk8

Hmm. Sound like a certain film out at the moment?

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 23:24:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Biological space vessels

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
> "If you want something similar that *could* evolve naturally, 
> think *much* bigger. Then try to find a copy of the old SF novel 
> "The Black Cloud" by Fred Hoyle. It involves a living *nebula*. 
> That is, a cloud of dust and gas the better part of a parsec 
> acrosss."
>
>         Would this be more likely to evolve?

Maybe. We know that "giant molecular clouds" have quite complex
chemicals inside. Possible *more* complex than thoser thought to have
started life on earth.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Jun 1999 23:35:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [OT] Re: Rocket Bike chem question

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
>> If there's native life, it'll find oxygen to be as dangerous as we find
>> fluorine. And water will be a hazardous acid to them. They'll also find
>> our lighting to be "strange".
>
> Pardon me for asking such an elementary question, but what, exactly,
> does "Ph" mean?  In my Chem book, I find the usual highschool chemistry
> Ph chart with H2O having a value of 7 (neutral) on the 14 point scale --
> with everything below 7 being a progressively more corrosive acid, and
> everything above 7 being a progressively more caustic base.  Is "Ph" a
> term that assumes Earth atmosphere/characteristics, or does H2O simply
> move +/- from neutral on the same scale, if present in a non-terran 
> atmosphere?

pH is the logarithm of the concentration of free hydrogen ions (or
something like that) in a solution.

It's not going to be affected by atmosphere. Though atmospheric gases
dissolving into the solution may affect the pH by changing the chemical
composition. 

For example a strong alkali solution exposed to a CO2 atmosphere would
get weaker because because as CO2 dissolved into the water, it'd create
carbonic acid (HCO3) which would react with the alkali forming water
and a carbonate salt. 

Example: NaOH + HCO3 -> NaCO3 + HOH (ie sodium carbonate and water)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 13:10:26 +0100
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Monomolecules

In message <3.0.1.16.19990612143621.30f7c760@pop-server.bcc.ac.uk>, Bryn
Monnery <uccabdm@ucl.ac.uk> writes
>>>Crystals of any element are one big molecule. Crystals of compounds get
>>>a bit more complicated.
>>> 
>>Urm - no they aren't.  Iodine crystals are made up of individual iodine
>>molecules.  Xenon crystals are made up of individual xenon atoms.
>>Carbon crystals may be made up of individual carbon molecules (e.g.
>>buckyballs) or giant molecular lattices (e.g. graphite or diamond).
>
>This depends on the type of bond forming the lattice. If the forces are
>covalent than it is a single large molecule (by definition).
>
>If they are something else (e.g. electrostatic or hydrogen bonding) then
>they are a crystal. 

Crystals can be formed from covalent bonds (e.g. diamond).  I was
correcting the error that crystals of elements are one big molecule,
citing iodine, xenon and carbon.

Martin Hardgrave BSc (Chemistry and Physics) PhD

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #738
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Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 13 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 739



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re :- Rocket Bike Chemistry Question
Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters
Sector Generators
Re: old Trav. history
Lunion Orbital Port
Re: GT Drop Freighter
Re: Sector Generators 
Re: Biology in space
Re: Sector Generators
Re: Superluminal Mesons
Re: Jump Speed Time Chart 
Re Lasers
Re: Size of Enterprise
Re: Pocket Empires and Imperial Squadrons
Starports and TL
Triage
Re: Monomolecules
Re: Jump Speed Time Chart 
Woodward Anti-Gravity (was re: Earth Tech)
Hydrogen Blast radius

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 22:51:46 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re :- Rocket Bike Chemistry Question

To supply some more information about pH :-

The term "pH" was first coined by the Danish chemist Sorenson in 1909.
It refers to the negative logarithm (base 10) of hydrogen ion
concentration in a solution. (German, Wasserstoffionenexponent ; pH=
"potenz hydrogen").

However, it is now defined as :-
pH = -log [aH]
where a is the activity coefficient of hydrogen in the solution being
studied (some things don't completely dissociate in real solutions,
including 'hydrogen ions' - which are actually charged complexes of
water).

To make things more interesting, pH 7 is not necessarily the neutral
point of water. It is temperature dependent ; at 293K, pN (the pH of
neutrality, where [OH-] = [H+]) is 7. At 310K (37 degrees C) it is 6.8.

In clinical medicine, it has been observed that for every degree Celsius
change in body temperature, the neutral point shifts 0.015pH units -
lower pH with higher temperatures, etc. This is an empirical finding and
similar rules may apply to solutions less complicated than intracellular
and extracellular fluids!

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 07:14:10 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters

>Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 00:32:15 +0100
>From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
>Subject: Free Ports & Drop Freighters
>I have come up with two additional methods so far that offer improved time &
>cost savings over the use of Lighters: Free Ports and Drop Freighters.
>
>Free Ports: Establish a very high high-port just beyond the stars 100D limit
>that is not masked with respect to any system that it trades with (i.e. it is
>"free" of masking). It is a rare system indeed where this is not possible.
Place
>it as close to the main-world as possible and make its position freely
>available.

This is more difficult in the general case than it sounds. (If you knew the
geometry, a particular solution might be possible. In Traveller, without
knowing the 3D relationships of the systems, it is impossible to make very
many valid assumptions.)

As the number of objects to be unmasked goes up, the distance from the
primary goes up geometrically -- the cross-sectional area of the primary's
100D limit is a constant in the calculations. Moreover, the distance from
the "free port" [not a good name, by the way -- the term already has a
technical definition -- try "far port"], which is more-or-less fixed with
respect to the stars (less proper motion) and the mainworld, which is still
in orbit around the primary, will vary by several AU's throughout the year. 

For transient traffic (passing through the system) this is not a factor;
for traffic originating or terminating in the system, the transit time from
a freeport is increased enormously. This discourages mixed loads -- some
transient cargo, plus a drop-off and pick-up at each stop along the way --
and leads to the same sorts of capacity mismatches that you were trying to
avoid. You would also have to recalculate lighterage and fuel delivery
tariffs: those were based on a port in high planetary orbit, not several
AU's away from the mainworld.

Drop freighters are reasonably sound in theory, but they suffer from the
same problems of geometry: one must either have two jump/breakout points,
for the inbound and outbound legs respectively, and transit between them
(which takes time) or one must put the jump/breakout point well away from
the mainworld to avoid both masks simultaneously. They are also not
compatible with mixed-destination loads. [Jim proposed this system early in
the writing of Far Trader, and I convinced him that LASH makes more sense.]

That's not to say that they won't work, or that you can't use these
solutions. The systems presented in Far Trader were extensively playtested,
criticized, and defended, however, and seemed to be the best available.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 09:23:41 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Sector Generators

I have the first draft (Alpha test) of my sector generator ready.   Does
anyone want to see it?


- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 10:39:50 -0400
From: Dave Biggs <dbiggs@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: old Trav. history

At 02:41 PM 5/27/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Go to http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/traveller/oldnews.html
>for the TAS reports since the never-happened assasination of Strephon.
>
>Basically, Dulinor died (?)in an unexplained explosion, just before he
>was to have an audience with the Emperor...it was in the TNE era he got
>run down by the 'lawn mower'.




It was the TNE era I was wondering about.  I didn't like the timeline for 
TNE but I was still curious about what happened.

Dulinor got lawn mowed, The Vargr got assassinated but what about the 
others, I'm sure they meet their ends after virus (yuk!) but is there a 
place to read about it...



Dave Biggs ------- dbiggs@magicnet.net
Sauron on FIBS, NODS & DeeBiggs on Yahoo
"stupid races don't build starships" -- Robert Heinlein
Ad Infinitem Et Ultra

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 07:30:14
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Lunion Orbital Port

Matthew Gross Memorial Orbital, Freeport class Orbital Facility (FF&S v2)
Designed by Douglas E. Berry, Gridlore Technologies

Statistics
Tons: 653000std (USL Sphere)
Dimensions: 259.4m diameter
Volume: 9142000m3
Mass (L/C): 6655341t/6549187t
Crew: 1601/2066
Troops/Science: 0/250
Cargo: 4000std (40 lrg doors /Hdl:40x20ton)
Passengers High/Med: 0/1000
Cost: 195161.627 MCr
Maintenance Points: 261005
Tech Level: 13
Size: 11

Electronics
Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 30xComp (CM:0.3 CP:3.33). Bridge.
Communications: 40xRadio (500,000km, 0.17MW). 50xLaser (1,000AU, 0MW).
Sensors: 4xPEMS (15 [500mkm], 10MW). 6xAEMS (11.5 [.5mkm], 2.5MW).
100xLIDAR (14 [200kkm], 0.2MW).
Signatures: Vis:1.5, IR:1 (1 at 32863MW), Act:1, Neu:1, Grav:-2

Performance
0                Power (Fusion:32967MW,5yr )
4748.8           Fuel (Purif:96,21MW)
0/1000/2250/0/0  Accomodations
12400            Life Sup. (/Ty:EnB,Gd /'St)
1                G-Comp
20 [100]         Armor, 59 Structure

Features
6500xAirlock
30xDecontamination Airlock
30xDocking Umbilical
50xElectronic Shop (6std ea.)
50xMachine Shop (10std ea.)
10xLaboratory (8std ea.)
1xHospital (176std ea.)
5xSickbay (8std ea.)
10xShip's locker (326.5std ea.)
125xPrisoner Capacity (50/50/25)
5xArmory (1.79std ea.)
30xGym (2.5std ea.)
4xShopping Areas(5700std ea.)
150xOrdinary Galley (Cap:10) [Cheap resturants]
90xFull Galley (Cap:60) [Standard resturants]

Small Craft
35xMinHgr (40std, 35 hatches)
20xMinHgr (95std, 20 hatches)
100xSpacHgr (1000std, 100 hatches)
25xUSL Univ. Grapple (5000std craft)

Backups
Communications: 80xRadio (500,000km). 50xLaser (500,000km)
Sensors: 2xPEMS (14.5 [160mkm]). 100xLIDAR (13.5 [50kkm])

Crew Details
20xElectrical. 109xEngineer. 1194xMaintenence. 100xFlight. 250xSecurity.
278xCommand. 88xSteward. 27xMedical.

Constructed in orbit in the late 1090s, Matt Gross Orbital is Lunion's
pride.  Built entirely with local assets, the gigantic sphere handles
thousands of passengers and hundreds of tons of cargo on a weekly basis.

The design is simple.  Around the "waist" of the station are a variety of
docking bays, grapples for larger vessels, and docking umbilical.  Each of
the primary bays can accommodate ships up to 1000dt, although a rule of
thumb for multiple ships is to knock of 50dt of capacity for every
additional ship in the bay.  Thus, you could safely put four free traders
in the same bays and still have room for routine operations.  Ships between
1000 and 5000 dt use the grapples.  Ships larger than 5000dt cannot dock
with the station under normal circumstances, and have to make arraignments
to use small craft for their interface needs.

Once inside the station, the visitor is offered any number of business and
recreation opportunities.  The four large shopping plazas carry duty-free
merchandise from throughout the subsector.  There are many restaurants and
clubs where one can sample a variety of cusines (The _Iron Chef_ on level
38, Blue Sector is recommended for the adventurous), and a large hotel
awaits those who just need to catch up on their rest.  The hotel is run by
the Holman chain, and accepts TAS memberships.

Order is kept by a 250 sophont police force.  MGO is a chartered
corporation under Lunion law, and has retained the right to operate an
independent justice system.  Those accused of violent crimes will be turned
over to planetary authorities for trial, but most minor offenses are dealt
with in-house with fines or short times in the brig.

Matt Gross Orbital is home to Lunion Orbital and System Control.  A vast
array of antenna covers the "poles" of the station, and ship owners are
advised that high energy emissions may damage sensitive equipment.  LOSC is
also the local office of the Imperial Grand Survey, and high-quality
navigation tapes and maps for most of the subsector can be found here.

Along with caring for the crews and passengers, MGO also has excellent
facilities for caring for the ships themselves.  50,000td of refined fuel
is kept available, and an on board processing plant refines raw fuel
brought in from the planetoid belt.  Sufficient repair and refit capability
exists to do annual maintenance on vessels up to 5000dt.

A fleet of 35 pinnaces shuttle between MGO and Lunion.  About half the
flights are to Gridlore Interstellar Starport near Mirrorsea, the capital
city, with the others going to Lunion's minor ports.  Scheduled service to
the other inhabited worlds of the system is based on the population of the
world and demand.

- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 11:28:12 -0400
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Re: GT Drop Freighter

>Freighter Section:
>
>GTL 10, 3000 DT USL, DR 100, Basic Bridge, Engineering, 6 Utility, 113
Maneuver,
>630 Fuel, 7 Staterooms, 1 Vehicle Bay (4DT Lifeboat), 5 External Cradle
>(capacity 625 stons), Cradled Vehicle (150 DT Jump Tender), 2210 Cargo,
standard
>software.
>
>Emass 1861.3, LMass 12912.8, Cost MCr 140, HP 120000, Hull Size Mod+11
>Accel 0.35 Gs (2.43 Gs empty), Jump 2, Air Speed  0

Isn't it kind of a waste to have to drag 630 spaces of Fuel Tank back to the
planet. Why not fit the Jump section with demountable Fuel Tanks. That way a
new Freighter section and new fuel tanks could be linked to the jump section
and it could jump.  The Freighter would not have to wait for it's tanks to
be filled and neither would the jump section. As opposed to putting the
tanks in the jump section.

Before anyone starts the drop tank thread again, these tanks would be
demountable, not disposable. They would jump with the ship. Such a design
would allow the Jump section to be moved without a freight section if
necessary.

********************************************
I'll be off the list for a couple of weeks as I'm travelling to Chicago on
business. I'll just have to catch up when I get back.

Terry C

All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 12:23:25 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Sector Generators 

> I have the first draft (Alpha test) of my sector generator ready.   Does
> anyone want to see it?

What platform is it for?

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 10:22:36 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Biology in space

>>> "If you want something similar that *could* evolve naturally,
> >>think *much* bigger. Then try to find a copy of the old SF novel
> >>"The Black Cloud" by Fred Hoyle. It involves a living *nebula*.
> >>That is, a cloud of dust and gas the better part of a parsec
> >>acrosss."
>>
>>        Would this be more likely to evolve?
>Maybe. We know that "giant molecular clouds" have quite complex
>chemicals inside. Possible *more* complex than thoser thought to have
>started life on earth.

However, the densities of the complex organic molecules in question are
so low that they meet each other only rarely - so any reactions take
place agonizingly slowly; so slowly there's no real chance of building up a
replicating molecule in the lifetime of the universe. This is one of the
reasons Hoyle disagreed with the Big Bang model - he wanted a universe
old enough (trillions of years) for life to evolve in Giant Molecular Clouds.

(Which led to his more exotic "germs from space" model, in which the
ever-changing common cold is brought to earth by cometary meteors...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 12:54:32 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Sector Generators

DOS.  the program is written using QBasic...

"Keven R. Pittsinger" wrote:

> > I have the first draft (Alpha test) of my sector generator ready.   Does
> > anyone want to see it?
>
> What platform is it for?
>
> Keven
>
> --
> tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                                      Science-Fiction Adventure
>                                                      In Reavers' Deep

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 11:45:13 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Superluminal Mesons

>So, if you are willing to throw away causality, postulate superluminal
>hidden variables, and deterministic manipulation for same, go for it. It's
>conceivable.

I realize that FTL in general breaks causality, but can anyone give an
example of how Traveller jump drives alone can break causality in a
macroscopic sense? By this I mean something like being able to travel back
in time, meet yourself, or create objects from nothing using only jump
drives?
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 11:49:47 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Speed Time Chart 

>Personally, I liked, and still prefer, the MT J-Fuel useage rates for TLs
>over 16 and think that there should be some way to factor it for lower tech
>levels.

Why do you like them? The reduced fuel usage will have canon-bending side
effects like making it possible for battle fleets to escape without
refuelling, and allowing ships to cross the Great Rift.

>After all, a TL-15 world produces a J-1 Drive that is in all game
>respects the same as one by a TL-10 world.

Not exactly, The TL 15 drives are built with TL 15 credits, and are
therefore much more expensive than TL 10 drives with the same performance.
This means that TL 10 starports can compete economically with TL 15 ones.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 14:56:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Lasers

>>Fundamental procedure for putting Vp (Velocity of pulse)=C weapons on a
>>target at ranges where potential movement exceeds target size and Beam
>>duration exceeds maximum movement:
>>
>>Base intercept time Ti= (2xDt)+ Tc +Tb
>>	Where Dt is distance measured in Light Seconds
>>		Tc is computational time in seconds
>>		Tb is time to bring weapons to bear
>>Max variation (probability area) radius Rp = (A x Ti^2)/2
>>Saturation Area As: Pi * Rp^2
>>Min Cross-Sectional Area Approximation Amcs: X x Y
>>	Where x and Y are the two lowest of Lenght, Width, and height
>>Simultaneous shots required to assure a hit Sss: As / Amcs
>
>  Huh? Too many numbers. My head hurts. :)
> So your saying that this is why all 800 have to go on one target, or that
>you can hit 800 targets with one laser?
>

800 shots assures you actually put a beam on target.
(Sorry bout the delay in response, MY ISP's Mailserve crashed for a week)

>>	High rof weapons may be able to count multiple times, depending
>>upon recycle time and As per wave.
>
> So this means that you need more shots to hit a target that is moving
>faster or accelerating faster?
>
Accellerating faster. Movement speed only becomes relevant at rather close
ranges or high differences in speed.

as for your example, joe, once the missile gets inside 0.01LS, it's toast
... that's 0.1 BL Hex

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 13:41:43 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Size of Enterprise

>Constitution Class Cruiser
>CraftID:	Constitution Class Cruiser, TL 17, Mcr. 25591

<the following is edited for (pardon the pun) space:>

>Accomm:	Crew=80 (Bridge=3, Engineering=39, Maintanence=3, Gunners=4,
>	Flight Crew=18, Command=11, Stewards=2)
>	Sm. Stateroomsx26, Lg. Stateroomsx27, Sick Bay x 1,
>	Gymnasium x 1, Laboratory x 4
>	SubCraft=Shuttle (95 Ton)x6

Crew of *80*? According to the original series, the Constitution-class
Enterprise had a crew compliment of 430... Even if we allow that the
extra 350 are scientists and research staff and security (red shirts)
and such, there aren't enough staterooms in the above for all of them. :)

(The above also doesn't include the bowling alley mentioned in "The Naked
Time", nor the swimming pool that appears in the old Constitution-class
blueprints. Side note about the pool: the shallow end was aft of the
deep end, the curvature of the bottom following the curve at the bottom
of the secondary hull...)


     Glenn St-Germain § Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com § http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:54:46 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Pocket Empires and Imperial Squadrons

On June 4, Stephen (SRKOALA@aol.com)

wrote: 

>Is there anyway to convert Pocket Empire forces to Imperial
>Squadron forces and visa versa?

This problem caused me several days of frustration. I couldn't do proper
conversion because PE gives no information on the size or composition of
its A,D, T, and J factors; only their cost in RU. IS waves at PE but gives
no information on how to relate PE's military budget to IS squadrons. 
I eventually decided to calculate the worlds's Military Size (PE p28), take
10% of that (rounded) as the base number of starship squadrons (IS p28)
instead of basing this on the number of SDBs, and price a Starship Squadron
at 1 TCr.  SDB squadrons I figured could go for 1 Billion Credits.
I also decided to ignore PE warfare rules and use IS instead, since that
level of detail fit what I wanted to do better.
YMMV. 






  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:54:51 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Starports and TL

TDRandall@aol.com wrote:

>Does anyone here have an idea where I can find maximum ship size
>and total size output for various Starport/Tech Level
>combinations?

>I can't seem to find anything about it in my MT Referee's
>Manual, but it just makes sense that a TL 10, C class starport
>wouldn't be able to keep up with a TL 15, A class starport.  And
>it also makes sense to me that both restrictions (TL10, C
>starport) should restrict the size of what even could be made in
>the first place.

>Any suggestions?  Does Pocket Empires give info for a protracted
>ship building "cold-war" between two warring planets?  (My
>ultimate goal)

Pocket Empires gives information on the size of a planet's
economy, including the military establishment. I use 10% of
military size times 1 Trillion credits as the approximate the cost of
jump-capable naval forces, and I would allow up to about 5% of the GWP for
annual civilian shipbuilding capacity in MCr.  Individual worlds vary.
  The economy and therefore spaceship building capacity of a world is more
sensitive to its population than to its TL or starport class. These have a
secondary effect.

 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 17:54:54 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Triage

I am about to develop a crash-landing of a small passenger ship
on a world hospitable to human life, but remote from a center of
civilization.  There will a range of injuries among the
passengers, from a few immediate fatalities and a fair number of
people walking away uninjured. 
Can anyone on the list describe triage, and what first steps
someone with medical training would recommend in such a mass
injury situation?
  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 15:01:57 -0700
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Re: Monomolecules

>Mono-filament is a mystery, perhaps a coiled bundle of strands of a plastic
>like poly(acetylene)... (PolyAc is very ammusing in its properties, it is

Buckminsterfullerene woven into strands ...

>Bryn

- --Adam

acgetchell@ucdavis.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 18:06:51 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Jump Speed Time Chart 

At 11:49 AM 6/13/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>Personally, I liked, and still prefer, the MT J-Fuel useage rates for TLs
>>over 16 and think that there should be some way to factor it for lower tech
>>levels.
>
>Why do you like them? The reduced fuel usage will have canon-bending side
>effects like making it possible for battle fleets to escape without
>refuelling, and allowing ships to cross the Great Rift.

Only if it is TL-17 or higher.  There has to be some advantage that higher
tech levels provide.  From the first tech level through TL 16, there is no
change at all in the required volume or the required fuel for jump drives,
only the fact that at higher tech levels, a larger drive (and corresponding
larger amount of fuel) will allow a greater jump distance.

I like the idea that higher levels of technology provide some benefit.
Otherwise, why continue investing in research after TL-15?

As to Canon, since there has not been any information posted on conflicts
between TL 17+ fleets, it is a moot point.  Tactics will have to evolve or
die.  Canon only covers up to Tl-16 (Vincennes and the Darrians). 

>>After all, a TL-15 world produces a J-1 Drive that is in all game
>>respects the same as one by a TL-10 world.
>
>Not exactly, The TL 15 drives are built with TL 15 credits, and are
>therefore much more expensive than TL 10 drives with the same performance.
>This means that TL 10 starports can compete economically with TL 15 ones.

If I have a factory on Terra (TL-15) build my drives, they had better be
built with Tl-15 components, designs, and know-how.  Five tech levels,
roughly the entire history of the 3I, and the only difference is if you
have the TL, and build a bigger drive which has a larger fuel requirement,
you can go farther.  The TL-15 J-1 drive is no different than the TL-10
J-1.  I find that hard to accept.  

But it is canon.

I can handle playbalance items when they make sense, this though, makes no
sense.  

YMMV

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 15:41:51 -0700
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Woodward Anti-Gravity (was re: Earth Tech)

>With that in mind, I'd like to ask a "favor":
>
>Adam, with your grasp of physics, could you point us towards the
>gaps in theory where a low-energy antigravity force/technique might
>lurk? We already *know* antigrav is "impossible" with current
>Earth science...how about some thinking about how it could be
>possible? You've evidently put some thought as to the obstacles - what
>unknown or partially understood areas of physics exist that could,
>if current guesses are wrong, allow workable antigravity?

The best guess is on the Quantum Cavorite site:

http://www.inetarena.com/~noetic/pls/woodward.html

The work of James F. Woodward is better documented (that is, he has
actually published an experimental protocol unlike the Russian scientist)
and, to my view, more credible.

Mach's principle postulates that inertia results from the sum total
gravitational attraction on a given body by every other body in the
universe. The limiting case of Mach's principle according to James Woodward
(whose papers I have not yet reviewed) yields the familiar F=ma equation.

Woodward also uses a modification of General Relativity to change mass
fluctuation in an object by varying energy density in a capacitor. This
idea only works if Mach's principle is valid.

Woodward's device uses these two principles: by rapidly changing current
density in a capacitor, one can produce mass fluctuations. By vibrating the
physical position of the capacitators (via piezoelectric crystal) and
properly timing this vibration with mass fluctuation, it is possible to
produce a net force.

The thrust is proportional to the power supplied: ideal for Traveller purposes.

Woodward's latest results indicate his effect may be smaller than his 1996
experiment, and of course, the effect could still result from error
uncertainties. And of course, Mach's principle and his postulated mass
fluctuations have not been proven. It is, however, within the realm of
possibility.

>>From such thinking comes the best speculative fiction.

Agreed. Another way to provide an inertialess drive involves the use of
Negative matter, another not yet proven/disproven quantity that certain
physicists (eg Robert L. Forward) postulate for various effects. Negative
matter and its consequences for both FTL and time travel are well explained
in his book "Timemaster".

>Walt Smith

- --Adam

acgetchell@ucdavis.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 23:40:44 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Hydrogen Blast radius

Hi all,

I was wondering how big and nasty (preferably in T4 or GT terms) the blast
from the residual hydrogen in the tanks of a downed Zho courier would be.
Specifically, it's the Type ZC Yetsabl courier in GTAR1 - in the scenario,
it's misjumped and used all jump fuel (it's a 200dt J3 ship). It then crash
lands, and I need to get an idea how far away the players should run.

Any advice appreciated,

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #739
**********************************

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Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 13 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 740



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Superluminal Mesons
Unsubscription
RE: Jump Speed Time Chart 
Re: Hydrogen Blast radius
GTS 1.50.00
Aliens of the Spinward Marches
Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters[long](was Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies)
Re: GT Drop Freighter
Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters
Re: Triage
UNPUNCHED Fifth Frontier War for Auction, MMT for Sale.
Re : Triage
Re: Triage
Re: Imperial economics/jump tech
Re: Triage
Far ports and security

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 15:51:09 -0700
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Re: Superluminal Mesons

>I realize that FTL in general breaks causality, but can anyone give an
>example of how Traveller jump drives alone can break causality in a
>macroscopic sense? By this I mean something like being able to travel back
>in time, meet yourself, or create objects from nothing using only jump
>drives?

FTL travel = Time travel.

Simple example. With a detailed telescope, I observe what is happening now
upon the surface of a planet. (No quibbles about pefect optics or
atmospheric effects or uncertainty, please).

Using a Jump-2 drive, I jump two parsecs away and train my telescope upon
the planet again. Now I am observing what has happened upon the surface of
the planet ~ six years ago. I overhear the plans to blow up a certain
building six years in the future. I can then jump back to the planet and
foil the plans.

More complicated scenarios can be devised, but I hope this illustrates why
FTL =  Time travel and why causality becomes indeterminate.

>Richard Hough
>rdhough@home.com

- --Adam

acgetchell@ucdavis.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 15:54:36 -0700
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>
Subject: Unsubscription

Hello all,

Well, in my brief stay I enjoyed the discussions. However, I find that my
schedule intensity has increased and I must narrow my focus. Thanks for the
discussion, and if you have any thorny physics problems, feel free to mail
me and I'll see what I can do with it.

Regards,

- --Adam

acgetchell@ucdavis.edu
"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 16:21:53 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Jump Speed Time Chart 

Wasn't there mention in the MT Starship rules that at a higher TL you could
reduce by 10% the cost, size, or power cosumption for each level over the TL
the component was introduced?

Best,
Jesse




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Richard
> Hough
> Sent: Sunday, June 13, 1999 11:50 AM
> To: Traveller Mailing List
> Subject: Re: Jump Speed Time Chart
>
>
> >Personally, I liked, and still prefer, the MT J-Fuel useage rates for TLs
> >over 16 and think that there should be some way to factor it for
> lower tech
> >levels.
>
> Why do you like them? The reduced fuel usage will have canon-bending side
> effects like making it possible for battle fleets to escape without
> refuelling, and allowing ships to cross the Great Rift.
>
> >After all, a TL-15 world produces a J-1 Drive that is in all game
> >respects the same as one by a TL-10 world.
>
> Not exactly, The TL 15 drives are built with TL 15 credits, and are
> therefore much more expensive than TL 10 drives with the same performance.
> This means that TL 10 starports can compete economically with TL 15 ones.
>
> --
> IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls-
>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 19:09:22 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Blast radius

- ----------
> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: Hydrogen Blast radius
> Date: Sunday, 13 June, 1999 6:40 PM
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I was wondering how big and nasty (preferably in T4 or GT terms) the
blast
> from the residual hydrogen in the tanks of a downed Zho courier would be.
> Specifically, it's the Type ZC Yetsabl courier in GTAR1 - in the
scenario,
> it's misjumped and used all jump fuel (it's a 200dt J3 ship). It then
crash
> lands, and I need to get an idea how far away the players should run.
> 
> Any advice appreciated,

I would think not far at all.  Since it's not under much pressure and
probably in a gaseous state, the residual hydrogen will burn nastily, but
probably wouldn't explode.  Think Hindenburg rather than Challenger.  It'll
be real impressive but a couple hundred feet away all you'll feel is heat. 


This actually came up on the Pyramid boards a while back, regarding a
Broadsword, but the idea is the same.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 18:29:15 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: GTS 1.50.00

Announcing the latest release of GURPS Traveller Ships, 1.50.00.

Whew ... where to begin?  When I first wrote this program, I did not 
envision all the different modules that would sprout up amongst all 
the gearheads out there.  Shame on me, but instead of just rewriting 
it when I saw what was happening, I tried to bang all the new 
modules into the basic system patterns.  Well, it didn't work.  So, I 
did what I should have done in the beginning.  This is a major 
overhaul and I have good news and bad news.

The Good News (gotta getcha hooked first):

- - Everything is now stored in the Repository.  This includes all 
systems from the basic building system on up to user definable 
systems.

- - Faster recalculations.

- - Improved printout.

- - Ability to lock the acceleration of multiple maneuver drive systems 
at the same time.

- - Optional Far Trader crew calculations per system.

- - Crew Requirements listing (also included optionally in printout) per 
system.

- - Software is now treated as a module just like all other systems.

- - Ability to add custom Weapon Turrets (not just the turret 
weapons).  Create turrets to house the TL9/11/13 weapons that 
have been created.

- - Ability to add custom Weapon Bays (not just the bay weapons).  
Create bays to house the TL9/11/13 bay weapons that have been 
created.

- - Ability to save and load different Repository files and import 
different ones.

- - Gunner Worksheet optional printed.

And the most major change: If you add a module to a ship, you 
don't have to have that module in the repository to view the stats on 
it anymore.  That always bugged me.


Now the bad news:
Your old repository files are not compatible with this version.
Your old ship files are not compatible with this version.

There were just TOO many changes to what I needed stored in the 
ship/repository files to even consider a conversion routine.  

However, if any of you want to save your old ship files, send them to 
me and I will dump them to a text file for you.  

OR

Save an old copy of GTS and run it at the same time as the new 
version.  Then you can see what needs adding.

Well, that about sums it up.  I hope I didn't make too many of you 
mad by this move but I think it will be better in the long run.

You can pick it up at

http://209.39.36.25/gurps/


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 20:20:39 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Aliens of the Spinward Marches

I'm looking for original sources for some of the 
races in Behind the Claw.  Here are the races
of the Spinward Marches that I've identified
thus far (not including Chirpers and Droyne):

Tethmari (Squat Herbivore Tripods)
Gyomar 0108 (Chronor) 
GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw

Tashaki (Silicon Based Humaniods)
Retinae 0416 (Querion) 
GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw

Sheol (2 Species: Triangular Flyer / Sphere Floater)
Querion Gas Giant 0614 (Querion) 
GURPS Traveller: Alien Races I

Garoo (Human Minor) 
Garoo 0130 (Darrian) 
GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw

Darrian (Human Minor) 
Darrian 0627 (Darrian) 
Alien Module 8: Darrians

Mewey (Humanoid)
Mewey 0838 (Five Sisters) 
GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw

Viji (Microscopic, Crystaline, Insect-like)
Zeta 2 0919 (Vilis) 
GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw

Saurians (Reptile-Like Warm Blooded Humanoids)
Saurus 1320 (Vilis) 
GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw

Shreikers ()
567-908 1031 (District 268) 
Adventure 11 Safari Ship

Otarri (Amphibian Humanoids)
Faldor 1131 (District 268) 
GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw

Ursty (Aquatic, Seven-Limbed, Squid-like)
Yurst 2309 (Regina) 
GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw

Keo Neseb (Extinct Insectoid) 
Penkwar 2128 (Lunion) 
RICE Persephone paper (Supported by GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw)

Unnamed (Short, Barrel-Chested Humaniods)
Craw 1939 (Glisten) 
JTAS #11 (Supported by GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw)

Ebokin (Twelve Limbed Arthropods)
Yebab 2202 (Aramis) 
The Traveller Adventure

Llellewyloly (Dandelions - Five Limbed Spheres)
Junidy 3202 (Aramis) 
The Traveller Adventure

Larianz (?)
Byret 2523 (Mora)
Spinward Marches Campaign

Nexies (Human Minor?) 
Nexine 3030 (Mora) 
Supplement 3 The Spinward Marches

I'd also like to get more details on the Larianz,
as I don't have the Spinward Marches Campaign
book.

Paul Schirf
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 19:21:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters[long](was Revenue & Profit of Imperial Companies)

On 06/13/99 00:32:15 you wrote:
>
>The inclusion of jump masking in the OTU (GT and T5) adds a significant amount
>of time to each journey (on average).  This is very inconvenient to the shipping
>companies - time is money.  The cost is passed on to the shippers and customers.
>This in turn leads to uneven demand for the shipping services, leading to
>over-capacity at one time of year and under-capacity later in the same year. 

	Jump masking certainly creates logistical problems for shipping companies, but it's not 
clear that it needs to be a business problem.  First of all, there's no reason the lines can't 
charge a standard price all year that evens out the cost highs and lows over the course of the 
year.  IIRC, the average Trav world actually has a year shorter than a standard "calendar" year, 
so this is even easier.  Furthermore, it's not clear how price-elastic demand for shipping is.  
For non-bulk goods shipping costs are generally small relative to the cost of goods shipped.  
However, the bulk of trade (by volume), is bulk goods and these tend to be much more sensitive 
to shipping costs because of their lower value/volume.  Still, you have to compare the cost of 
shipping to the cost of carrying inventory and warehousing to hold the economy through the high-
cost shipping period.  As you've pointed out elsewhere, the true cost of shipping (especially in 
GT) is the j-drive.  So if systems with high masking simply adopt a LASH system they can 
eliminate the great bulk of the costs by keeping the j-drive systems moving and absorbing the 
additional delays in the lighter system.  Since m-drive equipped ships are so cheap relative to 
j-drive ships, it's easy to add lighters.
	In short, I think jump masking is less costly than the "fixes" you're proposing.

<snip>
>Free Ports: Establish a very high high-port just beyond the stars 100D limit
>that is not masked with respect to any system that it trades with (i.e. it is
>"free" of masking). It is a rare system indeed where this is not possible. Place
>it as close to the main-world as possible and make its position freely
>available.

	If this is the planet's only highport, then this makes for very long in-system transit 
times all year instead of just at certain points in the year.  Orbits being what they are, it's 
also not clear to me that you won't have times when the mainworld is "masked" with regard to the 
"freeport."  Transit time is expensive for the companies shipping goods as well as the shipping 
lines themselves because it forces them to carry more inventory, fix plans further in advance, 
etc.

<snipped "Drop Freighters">

	This is a lot like LASH except the fuel tanks are detachable as well and you have one 
giant lighter instead of many smaller ones.  This eliminates the advantage LASH ships have of 
being able to easily land lighters directly at the downport or sub-downport closest to the 
customer.  It also forces you to pay the high 30% of volume streamlining cost for the hull 
enclosing your fuel tanks, unless you want to restrict it to the highport which further limits 
the range of the ship.  Lighters are also handy because you can have many ship designs use the 
same lighter system.  The "mega-LASH" on big routes and the "mini-LASH" on small routes.  It 
also hurts when some of your cargo is "through" cargo destined for the next system.  On a LASH 
vessel you can put all of it in one lighter that stays on the tender whereas for drop freighters 
it has to waste several days go in-system and back out again.

Thanks John for you continuing exploration of the issues raised by Far Trader.  I know you've 
already caught some important errata for us, and other things you've raised will probably wind 
up in the "design notes" article (whenever we get around to that.)


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
co-author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 00:46:14 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: GT Drop Freighter

>Isn't it kind of a waste to have to drag 630 spaces of Fuel Tank back to the
>planet. Why not fit the Jump section with demountable Fuel Tanks. That way a
>new Freighter section and new fuel tanks could be linked to the jump section
>and it could jump.  The Freighter would not have to wait for it's tanks to
>be filled and neither would the jump section. As opposed to putting the
>tanks in the jump section.

Yes it is a waste to carry that expensive fuel tankage in the cargo section, but
I couldn't come up with a more economic option. I assumed that refuleing and
loading/unloading took place simultaneously, though refueling time is not a
major consideration. 

Are demountable tanks covered in GT? Are they any cheaper? You would have to pay
a premium to get them filled and/or delivered at/to the jump point. Hmmm, I will
have to try and work out the economics of this now.

This was the simplest & cheapest of the designs for this concept I came up with.
I wanted to see what criticisms the list came up with before I posted more
complicated versions.

Another design included internal tankage to allow the jump section to jump
alone, in case of misjump or attack (only needs 15 DT of fuel for J1). After all
its only 150DT but its very expensive and you wouldn't want to lose it (which is
why I armed it).

Note that the jump section could connect to two cargo sections and still do a
J1.

Another had a 2000 DT USL cargo section, and used a standard 800DT SL oiler as
the fuel tanks (i.e. a three part ship). The oiler is more expensive but can be
reused more often, and gets you nearly free fuel, or can earn revenue between
jumps. 

BTW is Drop-Freighter a good designation? I was afraid that it might be mistaken
for a Drop-Tank freighter. I also considered the term "Jump-Lighter".

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 01:32:11 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters

>As the number of objects to be unmasked goes up, the distance from the
>primary goes up geometrically -- the cross-sectional area of the primary's
>100D limit is a constant in the calculations. 

Most worlds only trade directly with two or three others. If a particular
systems geometry is bad for a far-port then you place it so it minimises the
worst masking rather than eliminates it altogether.

>Moreover, the distance from
>the "free port" [not a good name, by the way -- the term already has a
>technical definition -- try "far port"], which is more-or-less fixed with
>respect to the stars (less proper motion) and the mainworld, which is still
>in orbit around the primary, will vary by several AU's throughout the year. 

I was assuming a moving far-port, that was kept as close to the main-world as
possible, whilst staying unmasked, and its planned position was freely available

>For transient traffic (passing through the system) this is not a factor;
>for traffic originating or terminating in the system, the transit time from
>a freeport is increased enormously. This discourages mixed loads -- some
>transient cargo, plus a drop-off and pick-up at each stop along the way --
>and leads to the same sorts of capacity mismatches that you were trying to
>avoid. 

Worst case I would have thought 1.4 (root 2) AUs, would be enough to reduce
masking to a minor irritant. A few Class A & F stars might be more troublesome,
which is where drop-freighters take over.

Local transit times are increased but shipping price is radically decreased (no
longer are you tying up of that expensive j-drive that normally costs you).
Shipping is also always available throughout the year as shipping companies
don't divert shipping during mask maxima. Swings & roundabouts - as we say in
the UK.

>You would also have to recalculate lighterage and fuel delivery
>tariffs: those were based on a port in high planetary orbit, not several
>AU's away from the mainworld.
 
M-drive lighters have got to be cheaper than tying up the j-drive of a
mega-freighter.

Fuel would have to be very expensive indeed for this not to be more profitable.
And if it is then you run your own oilers in-system...

>Drop freighters are reasonably sound in theory, but they suffer from the
>same problems of geometry: one must either have two jump/breakout points,
>for the inbound and outbound legs respectively, and transit between them
>(which takes time) or one must put the jump/breakout point well away from
>the mainworld to avoid both masks simultaneously. They are also not
>compatible with mixed-destination loads. [Jim proposed this system early in
>the writing of Far Trader, and I convinced him that LASH makes more sense.]

I was assuming either a milk run between two planets, or a through system with
the jump/breakout point well away from the mainworld to avoid both masks
simultaneously. The cargo section has 13 days to get down to the highport and
back.

With mixed destination loads, there is nothing to stop the inbound freighter
docking and transferring through-cargo to the outbound freighter whilst both are
accelerating to match target system velocity. I am sure I could come up with a
multi-hull design to transfer priority through cargo to the outbound freighter
and still make loads more money.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 18:30:33
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Triage

At 05:54 PM 6/13/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I am about to develop a crash-landing of a small passenger ship
>on a world hospitable to human life, but remote from a center of
>civilization.  There will a range of injuries among the
>passengers, from a few immediate fatalities and a fair number of
>people walking away uninjured. 
>Can anyone on the list describe triage, and what first steps
>someone with medical training would recommend in such a mass
>injury situation?

1. Anybody moving around is not injured (yet), your first concern is
tending to those not capable of moving themselves.

2. Collect and inventory your immediate resources.

3. Start triage.

a. Those who cannot be saved.
b. Those who can be saved with immediate treatment.
c. Those who will survive while you treat the others.

Since you have a number of uninjured persons, have them tend to the minor
injuries.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 20:49:48 -0500
From: John Kovalic <john@kovalic.com>
Subject: UNPUNCHED Fifth Frontier War for Auction, MMT for Sale.

Hey, folks,

Just wanted to update folks on the eBay FIFTH FRONTIER WAR auction I have
going on, and a sale.

Firstly, there are only a few days left. And it's at $44. The copy is
*unpunched,* and even though the box shows some wear (there's a picture of
it at the site), the parts are near mint, and in GREAT condition.

But mostly, I just discovered I'll be out of town when the bidding closes.
So if folks can't get ahold of me, don't panic. :-) I'll be back Sunday
night from the Association of American Editorial Cartoonists convention.

Anyhoo, the auction page for FIFTH FRONTIER WAR can be found at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=115098953

I'm ALSO selling off my T4 collection: Marc Miller's Traveller (Main Rule
Book), Emperor's Arsenal, Pocket Empires, Anomalies, Psionic Institutes and
Long way Home. Rulebook VERY slightly used. All else in mint condition.
SRP: $129.75 All six books for $65, plus postage, or best offer.

Thanks,

John

                                     -----------------------


         DORK TOWER #4 (with the FREE CHEAPASS GAME) is OUT NOW!

**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
              "Dork Tower," "Shop Keep," "Wild Life," "Murphy's Rules":
       at 'TOON CENTRAL: http://kovalic.com  - e-mail: john@kovalic.com
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:02:16 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Triage

Thad Coons wrote :-

> Can anyone on the list describe triage, and what first steps
> someone with medical training would recommend in such a mass
> injury situation?
>
>
Triage : French, "to sort".
Prioritise casualties according to the following criteria :-
- - those with life-threatening injuries that can be quickly stabilised
(e.g. airway obstruction, (haemo)pneumothoraces ; obvious profuse
haemorrhage) ;
- - those with injuries that can be treated in 10-30 minutes' time
(compound fractures, cuts, etc.) ;
- - those with minor injuries ;
- - the dead and dying (i.e. decapitation, torso transections, etc.)

Obviously Tech Level may vary this a bit ; but the stipulation is that
this is a wilderness situation.

Approaching the individual casualty :-
A : Airway :- noisy breathing? facial or neck injuries? rapid, shallow
breathing?
B : Breathing :- equal air entry on both sides of chest? Sucking chest
wounds?
C : Circulation :- Obvious external bleeding sites? pulses? blood
pressure?
D : Disability :- level of consciousness? Obvious paralysis (hypertonic
or unduly stiff limbs, absent reflexes, etc.)?
E : Evaluate (the effects of interventions you have applied in steps A-D
above)

Never be afraid to delegate tasks to the walking wounded and the
ambulant ; there's probably just one medic to a lot of crew members!

I hope this is of some use.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 22:08:00 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Triage

- ----------
> From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Triage
> Date: Sunday, 13 June, 1999 2:30 PM
> 
> a. Those who cannot be saved.

a. i. Those who can be saved but only with great investment in time and
resources, during which others will probably die.  

> b. Those who can be saved with immediate treatment.
> c. Those who will survive while you treat the others.
> 
> Since you have a number of uninjured persons, have them tend to the minor
> injuries.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:36:25 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial economics/jump tech

>From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
>Subject: Re: Jump Speed Time Chart 


>If I have a factory on Terra (TL-15) build my drives, they had better be
>built with Tl-15 components, designs, and know-how.  Five tech levels,
>roughly the entire history of the 3I, and the only difference is if you
>have the TL, and build a bigger drive which has a larger fuel requirement,
>you can go farther.  The TL-15 J-1 drive is no different than the TL-10
>J-1.  I find that hard to accept.  
>
>But it is canon.
>
>I can handle playbalance items when they make sense, this though, makes no
>sense.  

It does make a twisted sort of sense if you assume jump drives are actually
monkey copies of TL21 artifacts, built in the Imperium in the same way that
TL3 artisans built monkey copies of parts for TL7 aircraft on the
North-West Frontier in WW2 (it amazed a bunch of aircraft mechanics, but
not the old India hands, that the locals were, with a hammer, a file and a
charcoal file, building parts that worked for the most modern aircraft the
Allies could build).

The other problem with making hi-tech worlds dramatically better at
everything is that if this was true, the development pattern of the 3I just
wouldnt happen.

Yeah, I know, the radical spread of TLs and industrial capability was
caused by random world generation, but if we have to make some sort of
sense of it all, then we must assume that those low stellar and down
industrial worlds have a viable economic niche.

Low jump starships are one of those niches.

Note that if the Imperium doesnt really, honestly, know how jump drives
work, then this could cause a very-well-compensated cultural inferiority
complex :)

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:52:41 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Triage

>From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Triage
>
>I am about to develop a crash-landing of a small passenger ship
>on a world hospitable to human life, but remote from a center of
>civilization.  There will a range of injuries among the
>passengers, from a few immediate fatalities and a fair number of
>people walking away uninjured. 
>Can anyone on the list describe triage, and what first steps
>someone with medical training would recommend in such a mass
>injury situation?

Robert O'Connor could probably answer this better, but there are two sorts
of triage - worst prospect first, and best prospect first.

The mechanic is the same in both cases. You split the injured into three
groups - the people who might die without assistance, those who will
probably die without assistance, and those who will die without assistance.

If you have lots of resources, the people in the worst category get
stabilised first, and then you work your way up the list until everybody is
saved.

If you dont, then you start with those with the best chance, and work your
way down. In all probability, the third group are going to get written off.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:25:18 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Far ports and security

One of the advantages of having starports on or near planets is the ability
to defend them with planetary defenses.

If you are sticking a farport out at or about 1 AU, to minimise jump
masking issues, then it probably wont be defended by planetary defenses, so
install at least a spinal mount, a bunch of nuke dampers and laser arrays.

It wont be a die-in-a-ditch issue, given the amount of trade that goes thru
a farport (10 credits per dton 'security charge' gets a lot of revenue when
you do half a million dtons a week throughput, and this revenue pays off
the bond that bought the particle accelerator).

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #740
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Traveller-digest        Monday, June 14 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 741



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re : Hydrogen Blast Radius
Re: Triage (Long)(OT)
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?
Re : Hydrogen blast radius
Re: Superluminal Mesons
Re: Titan Games Preview for (6/13/99)
Re: Superluminal Mesons
RE: Superluminal Mesons
RE: Superluminal Mesons
Re: Superluminal Mesons
Re: Battle-rider Support Duration
Re: Biological space vessels
RE: Starship Mortality
Re: Triage
Molecules
Buckyfilaments
RE: Triage
Re: Biology in space
Re: Superluminal Mesons
Re: Battle-rider Support Duration
Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches
Traveller stuff

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:13:07 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Hydrogen Blast Radius

Dom Mooney wrote :-
<interesting problem snipped>
?is this starship crash week on the TML?
<g>

If the ship has used all of its jump fuel, the main problem is the
kinetic energy of the ship itself as it kisses the ground in an
uncontrolled manner.

The hydrogen fuel could be a minor component - and the ship's hull may
contain the blast depending on its armour value (a 'puny' chemical
explosion - 28m3 LH2 is 140kg - in rough terms equivalent in energy to a
full tank of petrol in a light van or 4WD vehicle - say 1800-2000MJ or
thereabouts).

Convert the impact energy to TNT equivalents and use the appropriate
blast radii and damage values from GT/T4.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 19:34:57 -0700
From: "Wayne" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Triage (Long)(OT)

I hope this help you. any questions e-mail me off list.

From the Canadian Military First Aid Manual
Emergency scene management (EMS) Multiple casualty management (Triage)
Priority 1 - Immediate (roughly 20% 0f casualties) requiring life-saving
medical intervention.
    Conditions;
        - airway and breathing emergencies
        - sucking chest wound and tension pneumothprax
        - severe shock
        - severe bleeding
Priority 2 - Early (roughly 20% 0f casualties) have serious, possibly
life-threatening injuries but are temporarily stable, good possibility of
survival, condition will not be compromised by short delay.
    Conditions;
        - major abdominal wounds
        - major vessel injuries requiring repair
        - closed cerebral injuries with increasing loss of consciousness
        - injuries with perceptibly increasing shock
        - open or complex fractures
        - major burns
Priority 3 - Routine (roughly 40% 0f casualties) may be serious,even
crippling, but so long as casualty is relatively stable, evacuation takes
place as transport becomes available.
    Conditions;
        - soft tissue wounds with less major muscle wounds
        - lesser fractures and dislocations
        - Maxillofcial injuries without asphyxia
        - combat stress reaction
        - minor burns
Priority 4 - Deferred (roughly 20% 0f casualties) casualties are usually
ambulatory. Conditions cover a range of minor injuries, none of which are
life threatening. In mass casualty situations Priority 4 include those whose
injuries are so serious that the probability of survival is remote.
Casualties in this latter group must not be abandoned. They should be
removed to a quiet area, and provided with as much comfort and support as
possible.

The process of triage
    Stabilize for transport, continue to provide first aid in order of
priority for all injuries and illnesses. Do not delay evacuation to medical
help in order to provide first aid for minor conditions.Continue to monitor
for changes in conditions and change priority for first aid and evacuation
accordingly. stay with casualties until they can be turned over to qualified
persons.

Triage Tags
    When a Crash Team responds to an emergency where there are multiple
causalities, they follow an established protocol for quickly assessing all
casualties.During the assessments, each casualty is tagged with a triage
tag.
    The colour-coded triage tags identify casualties to which of the four
priorities they fall into.Priority 1 Red, Priority 2 Yellow, Priority 3
Green, and Priority 4 Blue.  This helps the Crash Team treat and transport
the casualties according to their differentent levels of medical need.

Wayne (CT/HG templer wanna-be)
wewart@home.com
icq22113294

Give a man fire and he is warm for the night.
Set a man on fire and he is warm all his life.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 22:50:43 -0400
From: Dave Biggs <dbiggs@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?

At 04:39 PM 5/27/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Cleon the Mad = Caligula, certainly. Lucan, I don't know. While the
>original Tricky Dick did kill the boy Princes, I see Lucan as less like
>him and more of a Macbeth figure ...woefully unprepared for the mantle
>of Empire, and progressively more psychotic as time went on, as the
>pressures of the war and his consience wore on him. Exact literary
>comparisons are difficult at best.

MacBeth, no not MacBeth.  Sure he killed the king but in his mind he was 
doing it for the good of the people, sure a little psychotic but Lucan was 
defiantly in it for Lucan.  Caligula doesn't even fit as he murdered for 
the sheer pleasure it gave him and not to take or hold the throne.



Dave Biggs ------- dbiggs@magicnet.net
Sauron on FIBS, NODS & DeeBiggs on Yahoo
"stupid races don't build starships" -- Robert Heinlein
Ad Infinitem Et Ultra

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:03:40 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Hydrogen blast radius

Doh! Math error.
I wrote :-

>  28m3 LH2 is 140kg - in rough terms equivalent in energy to a
> full tank of petrol in a light van or 4WD vehicle - say 1800-2000MJ or
> thereabouts).
>

2m3 LH2 is 140kg ; 28m3 is 1680kg, approximately 28000MJ.

A somewhat bigger explosion (radius about 3.5X larger).

In the *extremely* unlikely event of a fusion runaway, all bets are
off...

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 00:52:03 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: Superluminal Mesons

At 03:51 PM 6/13/99 -0700, Adam Getchell wrote:
>>I realize that FTL in general breaks causality, but can anyone give an
>>example of how Traveller jump drives alone can break causality in a
>>macroscopic sense? By this I mean something like being able to travel back
>>in time, meet yourself, or create objects from nothing using only jump
>>drives?
>
>FTL travel = Time travel.
>
[Adam gives an example where seing what happened 6.5 years ago through a
 telescope 2 parsecs away somehow violates causality]

I don't really buy this answer Adam, and looking at your home page, you are
just describing the problem incorrectly. Since you have signed off the list
though, you won't be able to reply to this :)

The real answer is at http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~hinson/ftl/index.html

But the quick answer is that because time is different at different speeds,
when I fly past you at a relativistic speed, an event in my past might be
an event in your future.

I believe the whole paradox requires differences in speeds that aren't present
in stars within 6 parsecs of each other, and since ships in J-space are 
incommunicado there aren't really any problems in the Traveller concept of
jump space. 

I could be wrong. Please read the FTL FAQ yourself, and anyone can feel free
to comment on this: I am just a computer geek, not a physics geek.





- -- 
Rob Brady 685B57            Computer Geek, 4 terms
Computer-4, Electronic-2, Streetwise-1
IMHO
robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 22:30:16 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Titan Games Preview for (6/13/99)

        http://www.titangames.com/
.
>Game Designer's Workshop:
>    (MegaTraveller)
>        Imperial Encyclopedia (213) [$9.5, VF]
>    (Traveller)
>        Book 4 - Mercenary (304) [$12, G]
>    (Traveller: The New Era)
>        Survival Margin (301) [$9, NM]
>        Smash & Grab (305) [$10, NM]
>        Aliens of the Rim, Hivers and Ithklur (318) [$17, NM]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1999 22:32:05 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Superluminal Mesons

>Using a Jump-2 drive, I jump two parsecs away and train my telescope upon
>the planet again. Now I am observing what has happened upon the surface of
>the planet ~ six years ago. I overhear the plans to blow up a certain
>building six years in the future. I can then jump back to the planet and
>foil the plans.

Excuse my density but how does this violate causality? How is this any
different from just overhearing the plan from another room?

I was expecting something like seeing a building blow up then use the jump
drive to go back in time and prevent it. Consequently, of course, I never
did see it blow up and so never went back in time...

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:48:16 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Superluminal Mesons

I don't know  about travel backward in time, but I remember that a number of
objects were thrown forward in time by impacting a jump field as a ship was
entering jump space. I think one of these was a ships boat. Unfortunately I
can't remember where I saw this.

Antony Farrell

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:48:18 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Superluminal Mesons

Must be a really good "tele"-scope.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:25:46 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Superluminal Mesons

At 15:51 13/06/1999 -0700, Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu> wrote:
>>I realize that FTL in general breaks causality, but can anyone give an
>>example of how Traveller jump drives alone can break causality in a
>>macroscopic sense? By this I mean something like being able to travel back
>>in time, meet yourself, or create objects from nothing using only jump
>>drives?
>
>FTL travel = Time travel.
>
>Simple example. With a detailed telescope, I observe what is happening now
>upon the surface of a planet. (No quibbles about pefect optics or
>atmospheric effects or uncertainty, please).
>
>Using a Jump-2 drive, I jump two parsecs away and train my telescope upon
>the planet again. Now I am observing what has happened upon the surface of
>the planet ~ six years ago. I overhear the plans to blow up a certain
>building six years in the future. I can then jump back to the planet and
>foil the plans.

So I have my time travelling weather satellite 6 light years from Earth.
In 2004 it jumps to Earth to report:

	"There's going to be a pretty bad hurricane in 1998"

Sounds like more use to the weather historians than the weather forcasters.

Phil Kitching

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 07:58:23 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Battle-rider Support Duration

Phil Kitching writes:
"I think that there is a lot to be gained by making the 
riders self contained ships:
<snipped>
Against this, I'm sure there are some slight benefits in 
making them limited duration. Not under High Guard though 
(unless you define limited duration as one day and do away 
with the staterooms altogether or have hot bunking, neither 
of which is allowed by the rules.)"

	It will, of course, depend on the mission envisaged
	for the battle-riders, but their are 'small staterooms'
	in High Guard that allow for limited duration
	accomidation at 2 dtons/stateroom.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:14:18 GMT
From: Mark Fletcher <m_fletcher2001@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Biological space vessels

>From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
>Reply-To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
>To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
>Subject: Re: Biological space vessels
>Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1999 20:23:13 -0700
>
>Glenn Myers wrote:
> >
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I've been wondering if any traveller alien life forms existed which
> > possessed any of the following abilities:
> >
> >   Contra-Grav
> >   Radio Frequency comunnication
> >   Deep Space survivability.
> >
> > Basically, I'm looking to explore the idea of a race of "biological"
> > space vessels. The trouble I keep having is coming up with a remotely
> > plausible evolutionary pressure to evolve these capabilities. Engineered
> > life forms, maybe.
>
Didnt DGP introduce a race known only as "The Sparklers" which used 
bio-engineered ships? They were mentioned in the designer notes in MT 
Journal 4 (I think...)

They were a race who possessed incredibly powerful psionics... they used 
telepathy for communiction and Teleportation as a method of transport. Im 
not entirely sure on the accuracy of this as its been nearly two years since 
I picked up MT Journal 4!! :-)

Mark


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 08:45:18 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Starship Mortality

Michel Vaillancourt writes:
<snipped>
"How is everyone else doing it?  Or is no one else worrying 
 it?  =)"

	I have worried about it, but I don't remember what I 
	did about it.

"What I am premising on is that after 40 years peace-time 
operations, 75% of  ships will still be in operation.  For 
every 5 years after the first 40, 75% of ships are still in 
operation.  In "old" millieu like the 3I, it would be 
concievable to have 100 or 150 year-old starships for a
monsterously mass-produced design.  Does my failure/ survial 
rates seem high or low?

Can someone with a better grasp on math than I have figure 
out what the formula would be to come up with the results I 
am looking for on a yearly scale....  So that each year of 
the first 40, enough ships are out of service that at the end 
of 40 iterations 25% of the original number are OOS? And then 
a like variant for the subsequent 5-year scale.  I'd really
appreciate it."

	If the rate of attrition is constant for the first 40 
	years (they are all in pretty good shape, losses are
	mostly due to accidents, pir... um, unspecified losses,
	etc.), then to get 25% losses you need 99.283375% to
	'survive' each year: the proprtion surviving could be
	calculated by 0.99283375^(years). To get 25% losses for
	each 5 years after that (losses increase due to mechanical
	breakdowns), use 0.75 x 0.9440875^(years - 40). I would 
	not object to these levels, but they are a little higher 
	than I might use. Perhaps 0.9975^(years) for the first 40
	years (just over 90% survive to age 40), then 
	0.905 x 0.975^(years - 40) for the next 40 years (leaving
	about 33% at age 80), then 0.329 x 0.95^(years - 80) for 
	another 40 years (just over 4% still going at 120), and
	0.0423 x 0.9^(years - 120) until age 160 (leaving slightly
	more than 6 out of 10,000), and if a few have managed to
	persist: 0.000625 x 0.8^(years - 160) for another 40 (almost
	1 in 10^7 will still clunk along after 200 years).

	Hope this helps.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 00:01:31 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Triage

Triage splits casualties into three groups:-
1. Those whose injuries are not serious (e.g. walking wounded)
2. Those who will probably die, or at least not benefit, from treatment.
3. Casualties in need of immediate attention.

Then you treat those in group 3 first and when they are all done, those in
group 1. If any of group 2 are left, you treat them last. Sounds callous, I
know, but it makes good sense.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: 13 June 1999 23:08
Subject: Triage


>I am about to develop a crash-landing of a small passenger ship
>on a world hospitable to human life, but remote from a center of
>civilization.  There will a range of injuries among the
>passengers, from a few immediate fatalities and a fair number of
>people walking away uninjured.
>Can anyone on the list describe triage, and what first steps
>someone with medical training would recommend in such a mass
>injury situation?
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:47:57 +0000
From: Bryn Monnery <uccabdm@ucl.ac.uk>
Subject: Molecules

>Crystals can be formed from covalent bonds (e.g. diamond).  I was
>correcting the error that crystals of elements are one big molecule,
>citing iodine, xenon and carbon.

Yes, they can. I was merely pointing out that covalent crystals could
certainly be called monomolecular, especially within a work of fiction
(which the traveller universe is).

Bryn Monnery BSc (Chemistry), shortly to be MSc (Medicinal Chemistry)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:53:33 +0000
From: Bryn Monnery <uccabdm@ucl.ac.uk>
Subject: Buckyfilaments

Fullerene filaments?

Thats a great idea!

The only problem I can see is the possibilty of the wire not being to
flexible due to steric repulsion of the C60 balls, and a chain is only as
strong as it weakest link so a long "linker" could break.

Or how about using buckytubes for a wire. Again a linker is needed for
flexibility though......

Bryn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:06:47 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Triage

Thad Coons writes:
"I am about to develop a crash-landing of a small passenger 
ship on a world hospitable to human life, but remote from a 
center of civilization.  There will a range of injuries 
among the passengers, from a few immediate fatalities and a 
fair number of people walking away uninjured. 
Can anyone on the list describe triage, and what first steps
someone with medical training would recommend in such a mass
injury situation?"

	A couple of good posts already address this, but I'll 
	just add my cr. 0.02. This is a tough situation for any
	medical personel: appart from the impact of number of 
	injured and dying, the senior medical officer will have
	to quickly decide which patients are 'worth' working on.
	As somebody pointed out, badly injured patients that 
	could be saved may be left to die so that three others
	are saved. Medical personel not trained for such 
	situations may waste time on the worst patients, or may
	'showboat' (consciously or unconsciously) by trying to
	save spectacularly injured individuals.

	The RW priorities of the first-aider are:
		1) Safe for me (I'm no help to you if I'm injured 
			or killed)
		2) Safe for you (get the patient out of danger, but
			be careful of spinal injuries)
		3) ABC (Airway, Breathing, Circulation)
		4) other conditions that may be life-threatening
			before long
		etc.
	In a triage situation, the first-aider will not initially 
	pass step 3 until all casualties have been assessed. Anybody
	who is yelling for help automatically has passed ABC (C 
	includes serious bleeding as well as heart function, but if 
	there is serious bleeding the yelling should stop shortly).
	The casualties should be rapidly assessed, possibly have their
	airways opened at the same time (or perhaps some other high-
	tech treatment that can be done quickly), then triaged and 
	treated.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 09:14:56 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Biology in space

Bruce Macintosh writes:
">Maybe. We know that "giant molecular clouds" have quite complex
>chemicals inside. Possible *more* complex than thoser thought 
 to have
>started life on earth.

However, the densities of the complex organic molecules in 
question are so low that they meet each other only rarely - 
so any reactions take place agonizingly slowly; so slowly 
there's no real chance of building up a replicating molecule 
in the lifetime of the universe. This is one of the reasons 
Hoyle disagreed with the Big Bang model - he wanted a universe
old enough (trillions of years) for life to evolve in Giant 
Molecular Clouds.

(Which led to his more exotic "germs from space" model, in which 
the ever-changing common cold is brought to earth by cometary 
meteors...)

	Further, biological evolution (as far as we know) proceeds
	mainly by natural selection. Natural selection requires that
	there be more than one organism (usually lots of them) all
	reproducing: the ones with the most effective form for 
	reproducing tends to supercede the others after numerous 
	generations. Thus, in order for a living nebula to evolve 
	by this mechanism, there would have to be many "giant 
	molecular clouds" capable of reproducing themselves.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:36:10 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Superluminal Mesons

>FTL travel = Time travel.
>
>Simple example. With a detailed telescope, I observe what is happening now
>upon the surface of a planet. (No quibbles about pefect optics or
>atmospheric effects or uncertainty, please).
>
>Using a Jump-2 drive, I jump two parsecs away and train my telescope upon
>the planet again. Now I am observing what has happened upon the surface of
>the planet ~ six years ago. I overhear the plans to blow up a certain
>building six years in the future. I can then jump back to the planet and
>foil the plans.

Of course, this example does not violate causality at all.

I observe what is happening on the planet currently (in my frame of
reference, which is the same as the planet's in the Traveller universe).

I have perfect optics, clear weather, and am completely certain.

I jump 2 parsecs.

I observe the planet from there ...

And I see what happened more than six years ago (from my frame of
reference, which is *still* the same as the planet's), since it takes light
from the world more than six years to reach the point that I am at now.

I have no special knowledge about the future.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:36:52 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Battle-rider Support Duration

At 07:58 14/06/1999 -0400, Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote:

<snip>

>	It will, of course, depend on the mission envisaged
>	for the battle-riders, but their are 'small staterooms'
>	in High Guard that allow for limited duration
>	accomidation at 2 dtons/stateroom.

IIRC, every non-officer gets a small stateroom as standard. I don't
recall them being described as limited duration.

The hot bunking I referred to was more like 2-3 people per small stateroom
(one working, one sleeping, one doing "stuff").

Of course, those people from today's real navies probably wonder why the
3I "wimps" need so much personal space. ;-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 10:17:38 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches

Paul Schirf wrote:

> I'm looking for original sources for some of the
> races in Behind the Claw.  Here are the races
> of the Spinward Marches that I've identified
> thus far (not including Chirpers and Droyne):

Wow! I had no idea there were this many races in the Spinward Marches. I
have no help for you on this, but many questions. I think it can all be
summed up with: Can you post your research on a webpage or send it to
me? If you don't have a webpage, I'll gladly host it for you. I am
currently working on a Traveller page that has it's main focus on the
Spinward Marches. This would be a wonderful addition!

Also, would anyone else on the list have data on the more obscure
Traveller races? We all know about the Aslan, Vagr, Droyne, Chirpers,
etc. But most of the races listed here I have never even heard of. And
does anyone have thoughts on alien biochemistry? I saw that the Rocket
Bike thread got into some detailed and highly educational discussion of
exotic, corrosive and insidious atmospheres, and this aspect of
Traveller seems to be glossed over in the canonical rules.

>
> Tethmari (Squat Herbivore Tripods)
> Gyomar 0108 (Chronor)
> GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw

Maybe I should get GT. I have been sticking to CT.

>
> Tashaki (Silicon Based Humaniods)
> Retinae 0416 (Querion)
> GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw

A silicon lifeform? Is this really possible? I know we here about it all
the time in Sci-Fi, but I thought silicon did not form complicated
enough molecules to  make this plausible. IIRC, I heard it would be more
likely to find carbon based life in an ammonia atmosphere or perhaps
methane. Any thoughts fellow Travellers?

>
>
> Sheol (2 Species: Triangular Flyer / Sphere Floater)
> Querion Gas Giant 0614 (Querion)
> GURPS Traveller: Alien Races I

Two for the price of one! Are these both sentient?

>
> Garoo (Human Minor)
> Garoo 0130 (Darrian)
> GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw

Is this a corruption of garou?

>
>
> Viji (Microscopic, Crystaline, Insect-like)
> Zeta 2 0919 (Vilis)
> GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw

Now this one sounds interesting.

>
>
> Ursty (Aquatic, Seven-Limbed, Squid-like)
> Yurst 2309 (Regina)
> GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw

Seven limbed? Not symetrical I take it, or is one limb central? These
sound cool.

>
> Unnamed (Short, Barrel-Chested Humaniods)
> Craw 1939 (Glisten)
> JTAS #11 (Supported by GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw)

Munchkins?
Perhaps not.

PS: This is a Chirping Elf post, not the usual individual posting from
this terminal. First time for me to post here too, did I get it all
right? No breach of netiquette?

Hope so.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:02:16 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Traveller stuff

Titan Games sale section still has the following, apparently:
  www.titan-games.com
>Game Designer's Workshop:
.
>       MegaTraveller
>          Player's Manual (211) [$5, M]
>          Imperial Encyclopedia (213) [$5, M]
>     Misc. Science-Fiction Board Games
>          Imperium (0205) [$8, N]
.
>     Traveller
>          Book 1 - Characters and Combat [$3, M]
>          Book 2 - Starships [$3, M]
>          Book 3 - Worlds and Adventures [$3, M]
>          Suppl. 2 - Animal Encounters (305) [$6, M]
>          Double Adv. 6 - Divine Intervention/Night of Conquest (331) [$5, M]
.
Judges Guild - ~12-15 titles.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #741
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Monday, June 14 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 742



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

The Uplift Question
TML Digest 738, 740
ERROR on .SEC files!
Re: Dr. Evil's monologue
TML Digest Archives dead?
Re: Dr. Evil's monologue
Re: Dr. Evil's monologue
Re: Dr. Evil's monologue
Re: Triage
Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches
Re: Superluminal Mesons
Re:  Triage
Warbots in the Federation
Re: Starship Mortality
Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters
Re: The Uplift Question 
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?
Re: Starship Mortality
Disaster Response (was Triage)
FTL = Time Travel?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 18:23:17 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: The Uplift Question

There seems to be an assumption in Traveller that the Tech Level
is based on _native-grown_ tech - i.e., that the planet in
question discovers and implements the technology without outside
aid.

However, it's generally agreed that the technological capability
to maintain most technology is somewhat lower than that needed to
initially produce it.

At the higher tech levels, this distinction may not matter much -
but it could conceivably make a _big_ difference at lower tech
levels - which is where uplift operations would naturally be
concentrated, to bring a planet up to an industrial tech level.

Thus, the following question for discussion:

Given the constraint that you may not import examples of
technology for use, but may only import knowledge, how do you
start any of the following societies on the road to their
industrial age ahead of their 'natural' schedule?

(note: don't assume that you're being dropped on Earth, with
historical personages available to you. Assume only compatible
technological, social, and internal political organizations.
Also, the job won't be completed in your lifetime - the idea here
is to give them a jump start, which they can then maintain based
on their capabilities at the time you introduce a particular
innovation. You will have the cooperation of the local
government, as long as you respect their authority and
prerogatives, and don't try forcing social changes too quickly.)

(note also: your industrial age need not follow the same pattern
as the historical IA; it merely must lead to results that are
_functionally_, in terms of niche-filling in society, the same.
Within those constraints, you may allow your prejudices in favor
or against various lines of development full play.  Your target
is based on technical evaluation, not social, so the ultimate
form of government is only as important as you make it. If you
use 'unusual' technologies [e.g., Babbage Analytical Engines
instead of semiconductor-based computers], explain why, and how
you overcome the shortcomings that prevented their use in our
development.)

(Finally, if you're using ideas from SF, that's OK - just let us
know author and title, and ISBN if available.)

Society 1: Rome, at the time of the fall of the Republic

Society 2: The British Empire, in the decades before the American
Secession.

Society 3: The Caliphates, at the height of their expansion.

Society 4: Mediæval Japan, about 1200AD

Society 5: Vikings, about 900AD

Society 6: Pick it.  Describe the political, social, and
technological structure of your starting society, and outline
roughly how it got that way. It need not have a close
correspondence to anything in Earth history, though there's no
objections to such correspondence.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:26:25 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: TML Digest 738, 740

Greetings:

Is there a problem with the digest? I have not received digest #738 and 
digest #740...

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:33:04 -0800
From: Mike Wittek <mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com>
Subject: ERROR on .SEC files!

Since some of you base your Traveller programs on the use of SEC files
that can be found at the Missouri Archives, I want to give you and
others a warning. A friend of mine and I found at least one error in the
code. Chronor's (Spinward Marches) PBG code was incorrect based on
published works. My friend stated that he had found other errors while
using a mapping program which uses the .SEC files.

Now, I am *not* knocking those that took the time to produce the
freeware or the .SEC files. Just want to warn those that plan to use the
maps. Double check the accuracy of the subsectors before use them!  :)

Good Gaming,
- --
Mike Wittek | Vacaville, California
mailto:mwittek@thelair.cnchost.com | http://www.thelair.cnchost.com
     "Democracy isn't just the best form of government; It's the only
one even remotely worth a damn. Only democracy guarantees that people
get what they deserve."   --Zena Marley

REQ'D DISCLAIMER: All that I write is my own opinion, and my opinion may
not be the opinion of my school or Internet service provider. For that
matter, it may not be your opinion, but deal with it.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 13:33:26 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Evil's monologue

Craig Brain posted:

>I am looking for a copy of the monologue of Dr Evil from Austin Powers, 
>where he describes his childhood in Rangoon, can somebody help?

I believe a local mall actually has it on a poster. I can try to get out
there Wednesday night, if you'd like. I have no idea as to the price.

David

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 14:33:23 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: TML Digest Archives dead?

Greetings:

Anybody have a current address for the TML archives? Either they are dead or 
they've moved and I don't have the current address....

Thanks!

Fred Kiesche

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:13:23 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Evil's monologue

From: Smart, David J (David) <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Evil's monologue

>>I am looking for a copy of the monologue of Dr Evil from Austin Powers,
>>where he describes his childhood in Rangoon, can somebody help?
>
>I believe a local mall actually has it on a poster. I can try to get out
>there Wednesday night, if you'd like. I have no idea as to the price.


    Or you could just copy it down & send it to the list.  I would not mind
knowing the Dr. Evil Monologue myself.

>David


Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:13:23 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Evil's monologue

From: Smart, David J (David) <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Evil's monologue

>>I am looking for a copy of the monologue of Dr Evil from Austin Powers,
>>where he describes his childhood in Rangoon, can somebody help?
>
>I believe a local mall actually has it on a poster. I can try to get out
>there Wednesday night, if you'd like. I have no idea as to the price.


    Or you could just copy it down & send it to the list.  I would not mind
knowing the Dr. Evil Monologue myself.

>David


Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 15:25:37 -0400
From: scott brandsgaard <buzardb8@interport.net>
Subject: Re: Dr. Evil's monologue

>I am looking for a copy of the monologue of Dr Evil from Austin Powers,
>where he describes his childhood in Rangoon, can somebody help?

From a page listing Austin Powers quotes.

http://members.theglobe.com/suefalco/falco.html

I can't account for the accuracy but here it is:

Dr. Evil: My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner
from Belgium with low-grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My
mother was a fifteen-year old French prostitute named Chloe with webbed
feet. My father would womanize, he would drink, he would make outrageous
claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse
chestnuts of being lazy... the sort of general malaise that only the genius
possess and the insane lament. My childhood was typical... summers in
Rangoon, luge lessons. In the spring we'd make meat helmets. When I was
insolent, I was placed in a burlap bag and beaten with reeds... pretty
standard, really. At the age of twelve, I received my first scribe. At the
age of fourteen, a Zoastrian named Vilma ritualistically shaved my
testicles. There really is nothing like a shorn scrotum... it's
breathtaking, I suggest you try it.



- ---

I wonder what would happen if suddenly they found Dr Evil floating in the
Marches after nearly 6 millenium...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 15:31:09 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Triage

Wayne writes:
<snipped>
"Triage Tags
<snipped>
"    The colour-coded triage tags identify casualties to which 
of the four priorities they fall into.Priority 1 Red, Priority 
2 Yellow, Priority 3 Green, and Priority 4 Blue.  This helps 
the Crash Team treat and transport the casualties according to 
their differentent levels of medical need."

	Civilian tags also include Black: dead or not likely to
	live :(

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 15:45:40 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches

Hypercleats writes:
<snipped>
"Maybe I should get GT. I have been sticking to CT."

	No! Don't do it!
	;->

>
> Tashaki (Silicon Based Humaniods)
> Retinae 0416 (Querion)
> GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw

A silicon lifeform? Is this really possible? I know we here 
about it all the time in Sci-Fi, but I thought silicon did 
not form complicated enough molecules to  make this plausible. 
IIRC, I heard it would be more likely to find carbon based 
life in an ammonia atmosphere or perhaps methane. Any thoughts 
fellow Travellers?"

	Putting on ultradense underwear...

	Because we have only carbon-based life-forms to go on,
	the likelyhood of silicon-based life is purely
	conjectural. Fortunately, this is Traveller. Sure, it's
	harder SF than most other games, but if you watch a few
	of the threads on sensors, missiles, pirates (throwing
	salt over shoulder), jump drives, and contra-grav, you 
	might get the impression that Traveller science can be
	a little soft around the edges (from time to time). It
	could be argued that the most realistic, hard SF, 
	uncompromising vision of the future will be nothing like 
	the universe that Traveller presents. Or not. The bottom
	line is: including silicon-based life forms does not
	contravene any obvious, basic laws, so if you want them,
	go for it!

	Pulling underwear over head...

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:52:50 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Superluminal Mesons

I've left the original in so that it will be easier to describe where you
have the wrong idea.

1. You observe a planet (in your own stellar system). You see through your
telescope what is going on.
2. You fly 2 parsecs away and observe events on the planet six years in the
past.
3. Acting on the information received, you foil a sabotage.

Note that AT NO POINT have you moved into the past, nor have you affected
the past, nor has the past affected you. What you have done, is observed
information FROM the past, in exactly the same way that historians and
archaeologists do every day. The identical situation can arise as follows.

You observe political mischief in your own country. Travelling abroad, you
obtain from various sources copies of documents written six years ago and
detailing plans to blow up a certain building six years after the plans were
drawn up. You go home, foil the plans and carry on with your life. At no
point have you travelled in time, but again, you have acted on information
carried from the past into the present.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Adam Getchell <acgetchell@ucdavis.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 14 June 1999 00:37
Subject: Re: Superluminal Mesons


>>I realize that FTL in general breaks causality, but can anyone give an
>>example of how Traveller jump drives alone can break causality in a
>>macroscopic sense? By this I mean something like being able to travel back
>>in time, meet yourself, or create objects from nothing using only jump
>>drives?
>
>FTL travel = Time travel.
>
>Simple example. With a detailed telescope, I observe what is happening now
>upon the surface of a planet. (No quibbles about pefect optics or
>atmospheric effects or uncertainty, please).

WITHIN the stellar system.

>Using a Jump-2 drive, I jump two parsecs away and train my telescope upon
>the planet again. Now I am observing what has happened upon the surface of
>the planet ~ six years ago. I overhear the plans to blow up a certain
>building six years in the future. I can then jump back to the planet and
>foil the plans.


You are looking at PRESENT photons, carrying information from the PAST. Not
looking into the past, just looking at INFORMATION.

>More complicated scenarios can be devised, but I hope this illustrates why
>FTL =  Time travel and why causality becomes indeterminate.
>
>>Richard Hough
>>rdhough@home.com
>
>--Adam
>
>acgetchell@ucdavis.edu
>"Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability in the opponent." --Sun Tzu
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 12:51:28 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re:  Triage

> From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
 
> I am about to develop a crash-landing of a small passenger ship
> on a world hospitable to human life, but remote from a center of
> civilization.  There will a range of injuries among the
> passengers, from a few immediate fatalities and a fair number of
> people walking away uninjured. 
> Can anyone on the list describe triage, and what first steps
> someone with medical training would recommend in such a mass
> injury situation?

Medical triage has been well addressed in several posts, but I would
like to give my Cr0.02 on legal issues in a crash situation.  I'm
assuming that your passenger ship is a commercial vessel; accordingly,
there will be some risk of litigation (much less than in contemporary
times, if your Traveller universe is anything like mine), and a
certainty of administrative reviews by the Imperial authorities that
issue licenses to ship's officers, shipping companies, and starship
manufacturers.

The ship's officers (and, to some extent, the crew) should take some
actions to minimize liability (even in the crash is easily shown to be
someone else's fault (like a pirate)).  Specifically, they should
preserve evidence and minimize the harm that has already occurred.  (I
won't address what plaintiffs' lawyers should do, as they are not on the
scene.)

Preserving evidence:

I take a few cues from airplane crashes.  The computer keeps a log file
of everything that happens of which it is aware -- sensor readings,
command inputs, communications, etc.  The officers should of course try
to recover a copy of this file and take it with them, as well as leaving
a file in a secure place at the crash site.  

Any other physical evidence should be at least documented --
photo/holographed, described in detail in writing -- or possibly taken
along.  Efforts should be made to preserve anything left in situ.  What
this physical evidence might be depends on what actually happened. 
Missile fragments, bomb debris, a piece of another vessel with which
your ship collided, are fairly obvious possibilities.  

The other major category of evidence is testimonial evidence.  Some
crash victims may die soon.  It probably makes sense to record their
stories -- both what they saw, and how much they suffered.  This will
help with assessment of damages later (and gives you some good
opportunities for role-playing).  The officers may want to lock up the
stories of other survivors as well.

Minimizing the harm:

The officers and crew should take -- and should be seen to be taking --
the best possible care of their passengers and fellow crewmembers,
cargo, and company property, in that order.  That's their duty as ship's
personnel in any situation, of course.  Triage is an important part of
their duty to minimize the harm, by saving the maximum number of
people.   

One comment on triage itself:

Another category of triage may be something like, "alien species that
you don't know how to diagnose and treat".  Any passenger line would
give its medics basic training in treating the races commonly
encountered as passengers, but there may be some exotic sophonts
aboard.  The time required to look up information would probably be
better spent treating others.  

I hope you find these ideas useful in your ship crash scenario.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 11:52:12 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Warbots in the Federation

> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>

> 'Some Hiver [Hive Federation] armies have consisted entirely of warbots,
> with no living members'.
> CT Bk8
> 
> Hmm. Sound like a certain film out at the moment?

Most science fiction movies are part of a Hiver manipulation whose
purpose is to prepare us to meet the other intelligent species of our
region in the near future.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 18:10:29 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Mortality

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, June 14, 1999 8:43 AM
Subject: RE: Starship Mortality


Was written:


In "old" millieu like the 3I, it would be
>concievable to have 100 or 150 year-old starships for a
>monsterously mass-produced design.


My suggestion:

Consider the two ends of the spectrum for craft that fall into the 100  to
800  range,  "a monstrously mass-produced design" which is sturdy  and easy
to maintain and a design that is of a more limited production.  To use
modern example and perhaps stretch the point a bit there are a lot of DC-3s
still flying cargo but you don't see may Ford Trimotors still in regular
service.  Yes I know that there is a age difference between the two but a
couldn't think of another near contemporary to a DC-3.  In part it just may
be that there are enough surplus spares circulating from "junkers" to keep
the existing ships of the high production line flying far longer than anyone
would expect.

What you might also find with such vessels as they move down the "food
chain" over time is that they become relegated to marginal back water short
hauls between low tech worlds with occasional runs to a class B or A port
for servicing.  They could turn up as asteroid mining ships,  intersystem
ferries,  or what have you; bottom feeding in what ever marginal economic
niche is available.    I can see occasions where such vessels might have
stretched out their maintenance to long and became stuck in a low tech
system.  They might then be converted to intersystem use with their jump
drives taken out of service.   To use a modern example picture a late 1800's
shallow draught steamer converted to a river boat in the back waters of the
far east in the early to mid 1900's.

Picture this for a scenario the PCs are left "on the beach" in some low tech
pest hole. They meet the proverbial old rummy ship owner in a bar, "She a
grand old vessel laddies, just needs a little fixing up she does.   The
Sybil Gael, she's a grand old gal.  Did I tell you I started on one just
like her 'cept younger, back when I first go the star itch.  Aye, with a
little love and a bit o' luck she'll make jump again I swear it.   Plenty of
spares to be had, I know where there's a junker or two out in the belt.
I've  been taking part off them for years."  Then he passes out face down on
the table.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 00:00:39 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters

>Jump masking certainly creates logistical problems for shipping companies, 
>but it's not clear that it needs to be a business problem.  First of all, 
>there's no reason the lines can't charge a standard price all year that evens
>out the cost highs and lows over the course of the year.  

Arbitrage, as you explain so well in FT, would sort this out. Otherwise this is
the prime opportunity for Free Traders.  Chase the mask minima and catch the
Megacorps out on their standard pricing. This is one of those financial
perpetual motion machines you warn us about in FT :)

<snip>
>In short, I think jump masking is less costly than the "fixes" you're proposing.

Only future history will tell - ask me again in a thousand years :)

<snipped "Drop Freighters">
>This is a lot like LASH except the fuel tanks are detachable as well and
>you have one giant lighter instead of many smaller ones. This eliminates the 
>advantage LASH ships have of being able to easily land lighters directly at the
>downport or sub-downport closest to the customer.

I think the important point is it is unstreamlined LASH - pushed to (beyond?)
its logical conclusion.  USL works out cheaper then SL even after paying the
higher fuel fees and extra lighterage/handling fees, etc., at the highport.

>It also forces you to pay the high 30% of volume streamlining cost for the
>hull enclosing your fuel tanks, unless you want to restrict it to the highport
>which further limits the range of the ship.  

Again, USL is more economic than SL. So restrict away.

>Lighters are also handy because you can have many ship
>designs use the same lighter system.  The "mega-LASH" on big routes and the 
>"mini-LASH" on small routes.  It also hurts when some of your cargo is "through"
>cargo destined for the next system.  On a LASH vessel you can put all of it in 
>one lighter that stays on the tender whereas for drop freighters 
>it has to waste several days go in-system and back out again.

I have already posted a partial response to this. A direct transfer of through
cargo is possible during the "match target system velocity" window. The design
was deliberately simplified to get the point across. I had already considered a
multi hull design, and even had a genuine FT fuel lighter included in one
design.

If the FT LASH designs were intended to dump the inbound lighters and pick up
new outbound ones in-system, then that is close to my suggestion. Though I would
still replace them with USL lighters. The way I read FT is that the lash tender
is waiting around for the lighters to unload/load and return which unnecessarily
ties up that valuable J drive. 

Hmmm, that means that nearly all lighters found in a system are owned by the
shipping lines. No wonder free traders have to use SL designs, otherwise they
would be stitched up by the shipping lines on lighterage fees.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 23:59:17 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question 

> There seems to be an assumption in Traveller that the Tech Level
> is based on _native-grown_ tech - i.e., that the planet in
> question discovers and implements the technology without outside
> aid.
> 
I don't think that's the case. The tech level is the level of technology locally available, wherever it came from. In WBH, it's the upper limit of technology generally available on the planet - WBH then goes on to break it down into particular technical areas - medical, transport. etc.
M

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:10:09 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?

Dave Biggs wrote:

  Caligula doesn't even fit as he murdered for
  the sheer pleasure it gave him and not to take or hold the throne.

Caligula murdered Tiberius for the throne.  He additionally murdered (either
directly or via his orders) numerous Roman citizens (and a
few Senators, for good measure) who did not agree with his succession -- his
paranoia even extended to those who were merely
suspicious of Tiberius' death.  This, IMHO, qualifies as "murder to take or
hold the throne."  As Caesar he even, at first, had the
cooperation and loyalty of the Praetorian Guard -- until his homicidal
psychosis and general disconnection with reality finally caused
the Guard to act, and put an end to his rule.  Enter Claudius.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:12:49 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Starship Mortality

Daniel Phelps wrote:
> 
>  To use
> modern example and perhaps stretch the point a bit there are a lot of DC-3s
> still flying cargo but you don't see may Ford Trimotors still in regular
> service.  Yes I know that there is a age difference between the two but a
> couldn't think of another near contemporary to a DC-3.  In part it just may
> be that there are enough surplus spares circulating from "junkers" to keep
> the existing ships of the high production line flying far longer than anyone
> would expect.

Well, there are companies _still_ making parts for the DC-3, possibly
even entire aircraft.

The DC-3 is also (IMNSHO) as near a 'perfect' aircraft the world's yet
seen, evidenced by it's longevity and vast popularity.

To carry on this analogy, take the Beowulf...probably as close as you'll
get to the DC3 in the OTU. 

There are companies turning out _new_ Beowulfs, so parts are readily
available. Then the limit becomes the absolute lifetime of the
'airframe'. Since a starship is built to different standards than an
aircraft airframe (shaving weight is a far lower priority in starship
design) I suspect it's lifespan is far greater. 

If significant pieces of the frame can be rebuilt or replaced, then the
effective lifespan of a starship becomes as long as you can keep either
a paper trail or the little serial number plaque in the drive room
together.

"Ayup, this is a Beowulf Mark 1, serial number in the low hundreds."

"WOW! How do you keep it flying?"

"Oh, easy...the only _original_ part is this polished brass wingnut
here. We use it for a weight on the engineers worklamp pull chain."

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:15:31 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Disaster Response (was Triage)

Thanks for all the quick responses on triage.

Next question: what about psychological effects?

   The first response is unlikely to be very organized or
coherent.  Ship's authorities are out of the picture at first, I
haven't decided if that's permanent. 
   I assume that the impact leaves everyone at least momentarily
shocked and I'm making it a decreasingly less difficult task of
Endurance+Intelligence to begin functioning rationally in the
first minutes after the crash. (In the meantime, there is lots of
screaming, moaning, and general aimless milling about.) Some
people with scrapes, cuts, and bruises, and even more serious
injuries will have their wits gathered before others who are
unhurt. Several of those with skills that would be useful in
handling this crisis are themselves among the injured. What
skills or experience would give a bonus here?
   I'm also making it a test of leadership skill (including
default levels) to determine whether a given person acts with
initiative or waits to be told what to do. A lot of inexperienced
people will be trying to take charge of their immediate
situations but failing in leadership tasks under the heavy
demands of this crisis.  There are several corporate and military
types aboard who will probably be more effective once they get
going, but so far they aren't the first ones on the ball, and
there is no guarantee that they will be cooperating at first.
   Quite a few people have basic first-aid skill and there are a
couple with some degree of medical skill, but to direct an
organized triage effort, they will have to either apply
leadership skills themselves or get the cooperation of whoever
else is most effectively in charge.
   Survival skills (finding shelter, water, and food) will come
into play fairly quickly, but I'm not that far along yet.
   What probable effects and responses am I overlooking?
  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:15:26 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: FTL = Time Travel?

>Simple example. With a detailed telescope, I observe what is
>happening now upon the surface of a planet. (No quibbles about
>pefect optics or atmospheric effects or uncertainty, please).

>Using a Jump-2 drive, I jump two parsecs away and train my
>telescope upon the planet again. Now I am observing what has
>happened upon the surface of the planet ~ six years ago. I
>overhear the plans to blow up a certain building six years in
>the future. I can then jump back to the planet and foil the
>plans.

  I don't see it. If the building was blown up before you jumped,
then can you can jump 2 parsecs away and see the plot hatched 6
years ago, but how are you going to have any influence on that
from 2 pc away?  When you return, you reverse the "time travel"
and come back to the planet still at least 2 weeks after you left and still
after the bomb went off.
   If it wasn't blown up before you jumped, you jump away and see
the plot hatched and then come back and foil it, you haven't changed
history either. A lucky LEO could beat you to it any time.
  

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #742
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Monday, June 14 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 743



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned? 
RE: Superluminal Mesons
Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches 
Re: Dr. Evil's monologue
Re: Disaster Response (was Triage)
Disaster Response (was Triage)
Re: TML Digest Archives dead?
Re:Book Name (was Disaster Response (was Triage))
Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters
Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters
Re: Biology in space
Re: Biology in space
Re: Superluminal Mesons
Re: Superluminal Mesons
Re: Monomolecules
Re: Triage
Re: Hydrogen Blast radius
Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches
Re: Far ports and security
Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 00:18:49 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned? 

> Dave Biggs wrote:
> 
>   Caligula doesn't even fit as he murdered for
>   the sheer pleasure it gave him and not to take or hold the throne.
> 
> Caligula murdered Tiberius for the throne.  
I don't think there's any evidence for that.
M

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:18:28 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: RE: Superluminal Mesons

>I don't know about travel backward in time, but I remember that a number of
>objects were thrown forward in time by impacting a jump field as a ship was
>entering jump space. I think one of these was a ships boat.

Travelling forward in time doesn't violate causality. Indeed, we do it
every day.  Examples I have heard of causality violations include using
tachyons to send information back in time and using a giant spinning
cylinder of neutronium to rotate an object's space axis into its time axis.
I think both of these ideas have since been debunked, and in any case have
nothing to do with Traveller tech.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 00:41:24 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches 

I have the Spinward Marches Campaign and can't find reference to the Larianz.

Note that the Sheol and Drakarans in reality first appeared in Aliens & Artifacts, for the ICE game Space Master (ie not for Traveller). Also of interest (to particularly sad people like me) is that Sheol and Clotho are the names of planetary bodies orbiting Alpha Centauri in another GDW game, (the late great) 2300AD.

M

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:41:02
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Dr. Evil's monologue

At 03:25 PM 6/14/99 -0400, you wrote:

>I wonder what would happen if suddenly they found Dr Evil floating in the
>Marches after nearly 6 millenium...

Well, he'd immediately change his name to Spofulam....
- -- 
Douglas E. Berry - dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol,
violence, or insanity to anyone,
but they've always worked for me.
             -- Hunter S. Thompson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:44:22 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Disaster Response (was Triage)

Thad Coons wrote:
> 
> Thanks for all the quick responses on triage.
> 
> Next question: what about psychological effects?
> 
>    The first response is unlikely to be very organized or
> coherent.  Ship's authorities are out of the picture at first, I
> haven't decided if that's permanent.

SNIP

>    What probable effects and responses am I overlooking?

One is that _several_ people will try to take charge and start giving
contradictory orders. What if they both make their leadership rolls? Who
gets obeyed?

You'll also have those who refuse to follow orders given.

You'll also have to have someone who needs to be slapped into
submission, it's in the Disater Movie rules. ;-)

Seriously, watch some cheezoid disaster flicks for hints on how to
handle this sort of thing, particularly for the NPC's you'll need to run
alongside your players. 

Another tack is to read some true-life accounts of disaster survival.

Sort of off-traveller, but on the subject:

A long, LONG time ago, I read a SF novel about a bunch of people on a
starship liner who were marooned on an inhospitable planet. The first
chapter described their first night, huddled together trying to keep
warm, with some predator coming at them through their perimeter fires
and killing a lot of people. The rest of the novel went through their
struggle to survive.

The planet had a long eccentricity to it's orbit such that it went
though periodic deep winters and very hot summers, on like 20 year
cycles.

The involuntary colonists (the novel tracked them through a number of
generations) eventually tamed/befriended the predators, which turned out
to be sentient, had these little telepathic chinchillas for
communications...and that's where my memory stops.

This was published, most likely, in the 60's, in paperback form at
least.

Any ideas who the author may have been, or the title, or _anything_,
anyone?

This was one of the first SF novels I ever read; I must have been 10 or
so, but I don't think it was a juvenile.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:44:45 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Disaster Response (was Triage)

> From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>

> Next question: what about psychological effects?

It's said that in a crisis situation, you react based on your training
- -- so it's good to have gotten some training.  

For that reason, I'd expect military people currently in service to get
their act together pretty quickly, and I'd expect members of the elite
forces to be the fastest of these.  The longer a veteran has been out of
the service, the slower he or she is likely to have gotten.  To some
extent, greater rank will tend to slow people down, too, as they will be
experiencing crises and crisis training less often than lower rankers.  

Civilian emergency services types -- like police, fire, EMT -- should
also get some kind of bonus for responding quickly in an emergency.

Age is a factor that cuts across all backgrounds.  I'm going to
generalize broadly from my own very limited experience with difficult
situations.  People in their 30s, 40s, and even 50s tend keep their
heads pretty well, recover from surprise quickly, and deal with their
own personal injuries pragmatically and coolly.  People in their teens
and 20s sometimes twitch back and forth ineffectually (but very
vigorously), and people in their 60s and above are just plain slower
than the middle-aged.  Young children would probably have the least
effective response to the situation.  

Race/species is another concern.  Vilani live longer than Solomani, so
they have more years of responding effectively.  Vargr are physically
less fragile than humans, but I'm not sure we can draw any conclusion
about mental fragility.  How do Aslan males and females respond to
crises?  What else do you have aboard?

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:58:32 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: TML Digest Archives dead?

MPGN got bought and moved, they're part of imagiconline.com now. I
suspect that the archives just aren't up yet.

Diespamer@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Greetings:
> 
> Anybody have a current address for the TML archives? Either they are dead or
> they've moved and I don't have the current address....
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Fred Kiesche

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:32:52 -0700
From: "Wayne" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re:Book Name (was Disaster Response (was Triage))

> Bruce Johnson wrote
<snip book review>
> Any ideas who the author may have been, or the title, or _anything_,
> anyone?
>
> This was one of the first SF novels I ever read; I must have been 10 or
> so, but I don't think it was a juvenile.
>
> --
Two books come to mind

1 - 'Forty Thousand in Gehenna' by C. J. Cherryh and,
2 - 'Midwold' by Alan Dean Foster

I don't know the publishing dates of the above books but your description
made me think of them off the top of my head.

Wayne (CT/HG Templer wanna-be)
wewart@home.com
icq22113294

Give a man fire and he is warm for the night.
Set a man on fire and he is warm all his life.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:20:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters

In mail you write:

>> Free Ports: Establish a very high high-port just beyond the stars
>> 100D limit that is not masked with respect to any system that it
>> trades with (i.e. it is "free" of masking). It is a rare system
>> indeed where this is not possible.  Place it as close to the
>> main-world as possible and make its position freely available.

> This is more difficult in the general case than it sounds. (If you knew the
> geometry, a particular solution might be possible. In Traveller, without
> knowing the 3D relationships of the systems, it is impossible to make very
> many valid assumptions.)

Even in 2d it's easy to show it doesn't work. Picture a system with 2
"routes" going to stars more or less on opposite sides of the system's
primary. 

To be able to have both *never* masked, you need to place the port well
above or below the star. Alas, if it's a G type star (just an example)
this means that it'll have an orbital period of no more than a couple
of years. Which means that much of the time *it* is masked from one or
the other. 

Your port won't just sit there, dead in space. It's either in orbit
around something (just about has to be the star) or it's falling into
the star. 

Now I'm sure someone will point out that I can make the plane of the
orbit perpendicular to the line between the two other systems. Fine.
Now stick in a *third* system at right angles to the line. We're back
in the same boat. *It* will be masked for part of an orbit.

And for that matter, it's *not* that hard to jump to a portion of the
destination system that *isn't* masked, and then just boost at however
many gees your ship can do in normal space.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:30:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters

In mail you write:

>>Moreover, the distance from
>>the "free port" [not a good name, by the way -- the term already has a
>>technical definition -- try "far port"], which is more-or-less fixed with
>>respect to the stars (less proper motion) and the mainworld, which is still
>>in orbit around the primary, will vary by several AU's throughout the year. 
>
> I was assuming a moving far-port, that was kept as close to the main-world as
> possible, whilst staying unmasked, and its planned position was freely 
> available

Ouch! That's going to eat fuel like crazy. You'll have to redisn that
farport as a huge *ship*, with all the extra stuff that requires,
drives, lots more fuel, etc. 

Also, the masked area can "move" far faster than a ship if the geometry
is "right".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:34:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Biology in space

In mail you write:

>>Maybe. We know that "giant molecular clouds" have quite complex
>>chemicals inside. Possible *more* complex than thoser thought to have
>>started life on earth.
>
> However, the densities of the complex organic molecules in question are
> so low that they meet each other only rarely - so any reactions take
> place agonizingly slowly; so slowly there's no real chance of building up a
> replicating molecule in the lifetime of the universe. This is one of the
> reasons Hoyle disagreed with the Big Bang model - he wanted a universe
> old enough (trillions of years) for life to evolve in Giant Molecular Clouds.

Check out Fred Pohl & Jack Williamson's "Star Child" trilogy" for an
interesting aproach to what a "continuous creation" type universe might
be like. "The Reefs of Space" is one of the titles and refers to the
*very* different "Oort cloud" that sysyems have in their universe.

> (Which led to his more exotic "germs from space" model, in which the
> ever-changing common cold is brought to earth by cometary meteors...)

I think it was Dr. Richardson who published an article in Analog *many*
years back pointing out an odd correllation between bacterial growths
on photo plates at the observatory (due to contamination of the water
supply) and certain period meteor showers. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:38:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Biology in space

In mail you write:

>         Further, biological evolution (as far as we know) proceeds
>         mainly by natural selection. Natural selection requires that
>         there be more than one organism (usually lots of them) all
>         reproducing: the ones with the most effective form for 
>         reproducing tends to supercede the others after numerous 
>         generations. Thus, in order for a living nebula to evolve 
>         by this mechanism, there would have to be many "giant 
>         molecular clouds" capable of reproducing themselves.

Not necessarily. In some ways, the cloud could be treated as an
ecosystem. It's definitely complex enough to have *internal*
competition between different processes for doinmg the same thing. 

This would be a *very* strange sort of "evolution", but I seem to
recall something similar being suggested as a possiblity for other
planets. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:42:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Superluminal Mesons

In mail you write:

>>So, if you are willing to throw away causality, postulate superluminal
>>hidden variables, and deterministic manipulation for same, go for it. It's
>>conceivable.
>
> I realize that FTL in general breaks causality, but can anyone give an
> example of how Traveller jump drives alone can break causality in a
> macroscopic sense? By this I mean something like being able to travel back
> in time, meet yourself, or create objects from nothing using only jump
> drives?

It's possible, but not easy. One of the requirements is that one set of
observers be moving at a fair percentage of c with respect to the
others. 

I keep screwing up in my attempts to create an example. Maybe someone
else can construct an example. If they do, it needs to go into an FAQ. 

But in essence, the simplest method is for you to jump from A to B. At
B, you radio some info to a ship that's moving at a high velocity
relative to you. They immediately jump to A, and radio to the station
you started from. If they have the right velocity in the right
direction, the message will reach A *before* you left. 

It's trying to calculate the required velocity and direction where I
get lost. 

I'm pretty sure that one of the key factors is that the duration of the
jump *can't* be the same in both frames. So, for example, they'd say
your jump only took 3 days, and you'd say that *their* jump only took 3
days. 

If jump duration *is* "frame invariant", then that gives an absolute
reference frame and relativity is out the window anyway. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:51:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Superluminal Mesons

In mail you write:

>>I realize that FTL in general breaks causality, but can anyone give an
>>example of how Traveller jump drives alone can break causality in a
>>macroscopic sense? By this I mean something like being able to travel back
>>in time, meet yourself, or create objects from nothing using only jump
>>drives?
>
> FTL travel = Time travel.
>
> Simple example. With a detailed telescope, I observe what is happening now
> upon the surface of a planet. (No quibbles about pefect optics or
> atmospheric effects or uncertainty, please).
>
> Using a Jump-2 drive, I jump two parsecs away and train my telescope upon
> the planet again. Now I am observing what has happened upon the surface of
> the planet ~ six years ago. I overhear the plans to blow up a certain
> building six years in the future. I can then jump back to the planet and
> foil the plans.
>
> More complicated scenarios can be devised, but I hope this illustrates why
> FTL =  Time travel and why causality becomes indeterminate.

Sorry, but while I agree that FTL implies Time Travel, your example
*doesn't* demonstrate any such thing. 

It's no different than finding an old recording. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 16:55:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Monomolecules

In mail you write:

>>Mono-filament is a mystery, perhaps a coiled bundle of strands of a plastic
>>like poly(acetylene)... (PolyAc is very ammusing in its properties, it is
>
> Buckminsterfullerene woven into strands ...

Buckytubes <> buckyballs. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:08:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Triage

In mail you write:

> I am about to develop a crash-landing of a small passenger ship
> on a world hospitable to human life, but remote from a center of
> civilization.  There will a range of injuries among the
> passengers, from a few immediate fatalities and a fair number of
> people walking away uninjured. 
> Can anyone on the list describe triage, and what first steps
> someone with medical training would recommend in such a mass
> injury situation?


Triage consists of dividing the injured into three groups (hence the
"tri" in triage).

1. Those who will die even if given the best care you have. This also
   may include people who *could* be saved, but only at the cost of
   excessive use of scarce resources (blood, meds, doctor's time). In
   other words, the people that you *might* save, but only at the cost
   of condemning several others to death.

2. Those who can wait for treatment. Either minor injuries, or injuries
   that are not life threatening, nor likely to "go bad" quickly. Ie
   "stable". 

3. Those who need treatment *now* and can be saved (or at least
   stabilized) quickly.

Group 1 gets moved off to one side and made comfortable. Probably given
pain killer if it can be spared. Basicly, you try to let them die as
comfortably as practical.

Group 2 gets moved off to a different location and also made
comfortable.

Group 3 gets immediate treatment, with the most urgent cases getting
treated first. 

After group 3 has been treated, then you stop and re-evaluate. You may
be able to help some group 1 patients after all. If not, you get
started on the group 2 patients.

And you may wind up deciding that some of the group 2 patients aren't
going to get much treatment. Scrapes, bruises and strains/sprains are
going to get *really* minimal care. 

In your scenario, detail are going to be modified. If it's practical to
send a party for help and have everybody else stay with the ship, then
your first goal after triage is to get the folks with the required
wilderness skills in shape for the trip. Plus enough folks in condition
to take care of the folks who stay with the ship.

If staying with the ship isn't practical, things get a *lot* uglier.
First goal is to convert as many as possible of the injured to "walking
wounded" status. And to get as many of the rest as you can
"transportable". Anybody who can neither walk, nor be moved via the
available methods is going to have to be written off. In fact, if the
need to abandon the ship is known early enough, it may even be a
consdideration in triage. Someone who would be in group 3, but is going
to be non-transportable for weeks may get shifted to group 1, for
example. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:31:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Blast radius

In mail you write:

>> I was wondering how big and nasty (preferably in T4 or GT terms) the
>> blast from the residual hydrogen in the tanks of a downed Zho
>> courier would be.

The hydrogen will likely be liquid in the tanks. So as they rupture,
it'll cause a lot of freezing damage to anything that gets soaked
before the LH2 evaporates. 

*IF* there's a spark once the hydrogen *gas* has mixed sufficiently
with air, it'll burn. An explosion is *very* unlikely. And since
hydrogen is lighter than air it ought to rise and any flames will be
pretty local. 

Basicly, if you can walk away from the crash, it *ain't* gonna explode.

>> Specifically, it's the Type ZC Yetsabl courier in GTAR1 - in the
>> scenario, it's misjumped and used all jump fuel (it's a 200dt J3
>> ship).  It then crash lands, and I need to get an idea how far away
>> the players should run.

There may be a *fire* hazard. And some *small* chance of an explosion. 
Hydrogen is not explosive. It'll explode if mixed with air in
percentages ranging from 4% to 74%. But it's more likely that the
"edges" of the cloud would ignite and burn.

One thing to be aware of is that a hydrogen fire *won't* look like the
Hindenburg. The flames there were from things like the fabric covering
burning (BTW, it turns out that the fabric may have been what started
the fire. The way it was treated amounted to impregnating it with
thermite!) 

Hydrogen burns in air with a pale blue flame. In daylight it's hard to
see. So you could have a player stumble into flames he can barely see!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:43:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches

In mail you write:

>> Tashaki (Silicon Based Humaniods)
>> Retinae 0416 (Querion)
>> GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw
>
> A silicon lifeform? Is this really possible? I know we here about it all
> the time in Sci-Fi, but I thought silicon did not form complicated
> enough molecules to  make this plausible.

Silicones are more likely. Where many organic compounds have a
"backbone" of carbon molecules ( -C-C-C-) with various side chains,
silicones use a Si-O-Si-O-Si- backbone. It's the -Si-Si-Si- stuff
that's just not varied enough.

Silicones *tend* to be more stable than analogous carbon compounds. So
silicone based life, if it somehow arose would require higher temps,
and possibly a more reactive atmosphere.

One interesting take on this is in Hal Clement's "Iceworld". It has a
species that's based on silicon or silcone (not sure which). They
breath *sulfur*, gaseous sulfur. Obviously their preferred temp range
is rather higher than ours. As I recall, they had to use banks of
mirrors reflecting sunlight into a valley to make a base on *Mercury*
tolerable! 

The "Iceworld" in the title is Earth... :-)

> IIRC, I heard it would be more
> likely to find carbon based life in an ammonia atmosphere or perhaps
> methane. Any thoughts fellow Travellers?

Well, it turns out that ammonia/methane type atmospheres aren't all
that likely. The UV from the star will break water vapor down into H2
(which escapes into space) and O2, which sticks around and reacts with
the methane and ammonia.

3 O2 + 2 CH4 -> 2 CO2 + 2 H2O
2 O2 + 2 NH4 -> N2 + 2 H2O

So you wind up with an atmsphere of N2 & CO2. That's how Venus, Earth,
and Mars all started out. 

The CO2 reacts with rocks, forming carbonates. That's how Earth and
Mars wound up with a mostly nitrogen atmosphere. Venus got into a
runaway greenhouse effect, and that baked the CO2 out of the rocks. It
also lost more water early on, which didn't help. 

Mars lost a lot of water (being small) and a lot of the remaining CO2
is tied up in the polar caps. Leaving a thin nitrogen atmosphere.

Titan has a Nitrogen atmosphere too, but it seems to have retained a
lot of hydrocarbons. Last I heard, the atmsophere was thought to be
nitrogen with a large dose of "photochemical smog". 

And while the gas giants have lots of ammonia and methane, those are
*trace* components of the mostly H2/He atmospheres. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 18:11:01 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Far ports and security

In mail you write:

>
> One of the advantages of having starports on or near planets is the ability
> to defend them with planetary defenses.
>
> If you are sticking a farport out at or about 1 AU, to minimise jump
> masking issues, then it probably wont be defended by planetary defenses, so
> install at least a spinal mount, a bunch of nuke dampers and laser arrays.
>
> It wont be a die-in-a-ditch issue, given the amount of trade that goes thru
> a farport (10 credits per dton 'security charge' gets a lot of revenue when
> you do half a million dtons a week throughput, and this revenue pays off
> the bond that bought the particle accelerator).

Actually, this is the sort of situation where moving a *big* asteroid
might not be a bad idea. It's kind hard to damage a nickel-iron
asteroid a few km in diameter. :-)

BTW, a good spot for a far port might be at the leading or trailing
Trojan point of the mainworld. That puts it 60 degrees ahead or behind
the planet in the same orbit. Thus, unless the orbit is really
elliptical, they'll stay at a fixed distance. It's also a good spot for
a comm relay for reaching outposts elsewhere in the system. Either the
planet or the station will be in line of sight. The star won't block
*both* of them at the same time. 

I'm not sure if 60 degrees is enough seperation to handle jump masking
at all times. But if it isn't, then 120 degrees *is*, so you'd have a
station at *each* Trojan point and *one* of them is almost always
unmasked. 

They'd also make nice Naval bases. You'd have to take both of them or
else put up with continual raiding of your attempts to blockade the
mainworld. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:52:59 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters

John Buston wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> If the FT LASH designs were intended to dump the inbound lighters and pick up
> new outbound ones in-system, then that is close to my suggestion. Though I would
> still replace them with USL lighters. The way I read FT is that the lash tender
> is waiting around for the lighters to unload/load and return which unnecessarily
> ties up that valuable J drive.
> 
> Hmmm, that means that nearly all lighters found in a system are owned by the
> shipping lines. No wonder free traders have to use SL designs, otherwise they
> would be stitched up by the shipping lines on lighterage fees.

In addition, free traders are likely to call on class C-E starports,
without any highport at all.  This is another business opportunity for
free traders, as conventional freightliners (i.e., non-LASH designs), if
optimized for dealing with highports, would be unable to service systems
lacking highports, even if lighters are available in-system (at least,
_I_ wouldn't want to try to transfer cargo to lighters in free-fall,
without benefit of a highport).


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #743
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 15 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 744



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starship Mortality
Re: The Uplift Question
Re: Disaster Response (was Triage)
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?
Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches 
LASH Operations (was Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters)
Advice on getting up to speed
Re: Disaster Response (was Triage)
Re: Advice on getting up to speed
Re: The Uplift Question
Re: GTS 1.50.00
Re: Disaster Response (was Triage)
Re : The Uplift Question (middlin' long)
Re: Disaster Response (was Triage)
Re: TML Archives Dead?
Re: Disaster Response (was Triage)
Re: The Uplift Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:56:44 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Mortality

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
<<snip>>

> "Ayup, this is a Beowulf Mark 1, serial number in the low hundreds."
> 
> "WOW! How do you keep it flying?"
> 
> "Oh, easy...the only _original_ part is this polished brass wingnut
> here. We use it for a weight on the engineers worklamp pull chain."
>
ROLTFLMAO!
 
I am fortunate that I have learned not to sip beverages just prior to
opening a TML post, else I would be getting a new keyboard for my
three-week-old computer....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 18:29:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

In mail you write:

> Society 1: Rome, at the time of the fall of the Republic

As I recall, they were up to cast bronze, but not cast iron. And they
had a decent concrete, though better formulas exist. Best of all, they
were into *results* for engineering probvlems, they weren't terribly
interested in theory. 

So assuming this society is similar, introduce better mining and
refining techniques. Also introduce better metalworking. A copy of
Agricola's "De Re Metallica" will handle a *lot* of this. Including
diagrams of better water wheels and methods of using them to pump water
out of mines, crush ore, etc. This would give them pretty much all the
metals known up to the time of the American Revolution. And lots of
iron. 

Beyond that, you'd want to teach them how to make coke, how to build a
"reverberatory furnace", and a few other minor things. Those would get
them up to the point of making some really *nice* steel, as well as
cast iron. 

Open hearth furnaces are easy. Blast furtnaces are harder, but not as
hard as you might think. 

Mass production using water powered tools could easily be applied to
things like gear for legions. And extended to many consumer goods. 

Steam power would be possible at this point. They'd have the tooling
and materials to build a steam engine. Electricity could be introduced
for some things at this point. Say, the telegraph and telephone.
Electric motors can wait for quite some time. 

Oh yeah, introduce the horse collar, so their horses can haul decent
loads. 

Add in some practical chemistry, and you've reached or exceeded the
level of Society 2.

> Society 2: The British Empire, in the decades before the American
> Secession.

Introduce the blast furnace, the steam engine, and electricity and
chemistry. That can boost them to early industrial (say WWI) level
quickly.

> Society 3: The Caliphates, at the height of their expansion.

Much like the Romans, except that *these* folks will be interested in
theory as well as practice. 

> Society 4: Medi=E6val Japan, about 1200AD

The big problem here will be figuring out how to get the tech advances
adopted *inside* the "craftsman" system. 

> Society 5: Vikings, about 900AD

The hardest part here will be getting enough people together to do
anything industrial. The population is too scattered. At a guess, the
first step has to be improving agriculture. Better crops, and the
moldboard plow. And. again, the horse collar. 

Once you've got enough population freed up from farming/ranching *and*
a decent poipulation base, you start on the mining and metalworking
technology. 

> Society 6: Pick it.  Describe the political, social, and
> technological structure of your starting society, and outline
> roughly how it got that way. It need not have a close
> correspondence to anything in Earth history, though there's no
> objections to such correspondence.

Take a fairly standard neolithic society. Add a couple of factors.

First, an interest in trying new things (not necessarily giving up old
ones, but a willingness to try out new things, just to see how they
stack up). So the folks who visit other groups will notice anything the
other group does differently, and try to bring it home. This may even
turn them into one of the trading cultures such as the "Beaker People"
in neolithic Europe. 

The second factor would be inventing a concept along the lines of the
scientific method. So they'll start keeping track of the different ways
of doing things, and trying to figure out why some work and the others
don't. 

These folks could wind up advancing *very* rapidly. Though I expect at
some point they'd learn it was best to be careful about telling
everything they knew to other cultures. But then at that time they
could start recruiting folks who were too inquistive for their own
cultures. 

So, for example, if the objects found in an archeological dig really
*are* crude batteries, used to electroplate items for some sort of
scam, if these folks had been around, they'd have eventually gotten
curious about things and maybe managed to lear what was going on. Thus
leading to a group messing with electricity in Assyrian times!

Obviously, a world with a group like this would advance *fast*. It'd
also be an *extreme* edge of the bell curve.

An interesting "uplift" example to consider is Leo Frankowski's "Conrad
Stargard" series. It has a modern day engineer from Poland get dumped
into early medieval Poland (10 years before the Mongol invasion). 

He has all kinds of fun bringing up their technology so they'll be able
to stop the invasion. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 21:35:49 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Disaster Response (was Triage)

Thad Coons wrote:
> 
> Thanks for all the quick responses on triage.
> 
> Next question: what about psychological effects?
> 
>    The first response is unlikely to be very organized or
> coherent.  Ship's authorities are out of the picture at first, I
> haven't decided if that's permanent.
>    I assume that the impact leaves everyone at least momentarily
> shocked and I'm making it a decreasingly less difficult task of
> Endurance+Intelligence to begin functioning rationally in the
> first minutes after the crash. (In the meantime, there is lots of
> screaming, moaning, and general aimless milling about.) Some
> people with scrapes, cuts, and bruises, and even more serious
> injuries will have their wits gathered before others who are
> unhurt. Several of those with skills that would be useful in
> handling this crisis are themselves among the injured. What
> skills or experience would give a bonus here?

Looking over the list of skills in T4:

1.  Jack-Of-All-Trades:  This was the first one to jump out and smack me
upside the head.  To quote from CT Book 1, "the individual is proven
capable of handling a wide variety of situations, and is resourceful in
finding solutions and remedies."

2.  Diplomacy:  From the T4 book:  "The skill of...keeping a cool head
in frustrating situations...."  This skill would help both in terms of
initial ability to regain one's head, and in getting potential leaders
to work together.

3.  Survival:  Those trained to survive unpleasant experiences are
likely to react well when actually plunged into an unpleasant
experience.

4.  Tactics:  Persons with high levels of Tactics have probably actually
seen action, and have had to deal with things going to Ft. Polk in a
handbasket during their career.

>    I'm also making it a test of leadership skill (including
> default levels) to determine whether a given person acts with
> initiative or waits to be told what to do. A lot of inexperienced
> people will be trying to take charge of their immediate
> situations but failing in leadership tasks under the heavy
> demands of this crisis.  There are several corporate and military
> types aboard who will probably be more effective once they get
> going, but so far they aren't the first ones on the ball, and
> there is no guarantee that they will be cooperating at first.

Again, the note on Diplomacy skill applies (if anyone has that skill).

<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 21:37:47 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Lucan, Justily panned?

Mark Watson wrote:
> 
> > Dave Biggs wrote:
> >
> >   Caligula doesn't even fit as he murdered for
> >   the sheer pleasure it gave him and not to take or hold the throne.
> >
> > Caligula murdered Tiberius for the throne.
> I don't think there's any evidence for that.
> M

<tongue-in-cheek>

Well, if we can jump far enough away from Terra, we can look back (given
sufficiently powerful passive sensors) and find out....

</tongue-in-cheek>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 22:59:40 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches 

> I have the Spinward Marches Campaign and can't find 
> reference to the Larianz.


Page 18:  "In addition, many of the worlds of the Spinward 
Marches had their own native populations: the Droyne of 
Andor and Candory, the Llellewyloly of Junidy, the Eibokin 
of Yebab, the Larianz of Byret."

I'm looking for ANY other reference to the Larianz... 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:49:27 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: LASH Operations (was Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters)

>Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 00:00:39 +0100
>From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
>Subject: Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters
>
>If the FT LASH designs were intended to dump the inbound lighters and pick up
>new outbound ones in-system, then that is close to my suggestion. Though I
would
>still replace them with USL lighters. The way I read FT is that the lash
tender
>is waiting around for the lighters to unload/load and return which
unnecessarily
>ties up that valuable J drive. 

Go back and reread "LASH Operations", p. FT65 sidebar. The only time delay
for the freighter is that required to drive from the breakout point on one
leg to the jump point for the next. The lighters for the inbound and
outbound cargo are different, and already loaded and waiting. Freight rates
for LASH tenders include a 50% overage in lighters to make this possible.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:04:54 -0700
From: "Brian G. Vaughan" <bgv@slip.net>
Subject: Advice on getting up to speed

I hope this doesn't sound like flame bait. If it does, please e-mail
responses directly to me at mailto:bgv@slip.net, rather than to this list.

Years ago, I became interested in Traveller, and although I never got to the
point of actually hosting a game, I did collect almost all of the
MegaTraveller materials, and I at least saw some of the Classic Traveller
materials.

I'm considering picking it up again, and, given how enormously expensive
buying materials can be, I'd appreciate some advice on what to shop for. I'm
inclined towards GURPS--I don't have any real experience with it, but I'd
like to cross-pollinate with other GURPS materials. But I'm also wondering
if it would be worth waiting for T5 (if it isn't a pipe dream.)
- --
Brian G. Vaughan (bgv@slip.net)
    The historic ascent of humanity, taken as a whole, may be summarized as
a succession of victories of consciousness over blind forces--in nature, in
society, in man himself. (Leon Trotsky, 1933)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:16:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Disaster Response (was Triage)

In mail you write:

>>    What probable effects and responses am I overlooking?
>
> One is that _several_ people will try to take charge and start giving
> contradictory orders. What if they both make their leadership rolls? Who
> gets obeyed?

Good question. However, in a "military" situation it's whoever manages
to assert seniority. 

> You'll also have those who refuse to follow orders given.
>
> You'll also have to have someone who needs to be slapped into
> submission, it's in the Disater Movie rules. ;-)

In something closer to real life, I'm fairly sure that if he choses to
excercise it, a ship's captain can *shoot* you for refusing to
cooperate in an emergency,. And I'm sure that military crews wouldn't
hesitate to use deadly force.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 23:13:21 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: Advice on getting up to speed

- -----Original Message-----
From: Brian G. Vaughan <bgv@slip.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Monday, June 14, 1999 11:06 PM
Subject: Advice on getting up to speed


>I hope this doesn't sound like flame bait. If it does, please e-mail
>responses directly to me at mailto:bgv@slip.net, rather than to this list.
>
>Years ago, I became interested in Traveller, and although I never got to
the
>point of actually hosting a game, I did collect almost all of the
>MegaTraveller materials, and I at least saw some of the Classic Traveller
>materials.
>
>I'm considering picking it up again, and, given how enormously expensive
>buying materials can be, I'd appreciate some advice on what to shop for.
I'm
>inclined towards GURPS--I don't have any real experience with it, but I'd
>like to cross-pollinate with other GURPS materials. But I'm also wondering
>if it would be worth waiting for T5 (if it isn't a pipe dream.)
>--
>Brian G. Vaughan (bgv@slip.net)
>    The historic ascent of humanity, taken as a whole, may be summarized as
>a succession of victories of consciousness over blind forces--in nature, in
>society, in man himself. (Leon Trotsky, 1933)
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 22:25:56 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> > Society 5: Vikings, about 900AD
> 
> The hardest part here will be getting enough people together to do
> anything industrial. The population is too scattered. At a guess, the
> first step has to be improving agriculture. Better crops, and the
> moldboard plow. And. again, the horse collar.

You might also want to look at increasing their socio-econo-political
sophistication, by introducing such concepts as the modern nation-state,
free market economics, and, regretfully, bureaucracy.  That way, once
they begin to build larger settlements (a.k.a. "cities"), they can
effectively govern and coordinate these settlements as part of a larger
state.  This coordination will improve their ability to use whatever
advances they obtain or develop.
> 
> Once you've got enough population freed up from farming/ranching *and*
> a decent population base, you start on the mining and metalworking
> technology.

One other knowledge area that would be unusually valuable to this
society is the ability to determine longitude (as well as other
navigational skills that may be lacking in the Viking culture circa AD
900).  While this requires fairly accurate chronometers (and thus would
have to wait until the metallurgy phase), the Vikings would be
culturally inclined to use this knowledge to spread their influence
abroad.  The resulting cross-fertilization of ideas, as the Vikings
contacted other cultures, would help boost their technological and
cultural development.

<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 22:52:59 -0500
From: "Bont" <felix@felixcafe.com>
Subject: Re: GTS 1.50.00

There are now a couple dozen ships for GTS located at

http://209.39.36.25/gurps/

if anybody is interested ...

I should be placing a few more up in the next couple of days.


- - - -
FELIX (Thomas L Bont)

- - Encrypt your messages!
  That way only the government knows what you wrote!

- - It is truly the wise man that knows what he doesn't!

- - With your shield or on it ... (Old Spartan Blessing)

- - Fidelitas super omnia, honore excepto

- - Help Stop Forest Fires.  Outlaw Matches.

Be sure to visit The FELIX Cafe at
     http://www.felixcafe.com/

- - - -

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1999 20:54:36 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Disaster Response (was Triage)

> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
 
> Another tack is to read some true-life accounts of disaster survival.

E.g., Alive, which details the harrowing Argentine soccer training
regimen (previously mentioned during our "are K'Kree kosher?"
discussion).  My girlfriend is reading Into Thin Air, about the 1996
disaster on Mt. Everest, but that was a long descent into chaos, not a
sudden crash.  Anyway, she says it's a great read, but I think I'll need
to have Gamelords' Mountain Environment and Ascent to Anekthor beside me
for reference.

> Sort of off-traveller, but on the subject:
> 
> A long, LONG time ago, I read a SF novel about a bunch of people on a
> starship liner who were marooned on an inhospitable planet. The first

I think that's Icerigger.  I've never read it, but my memory of the
cover painting makes me think that that's the story.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:12:32 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : The Uplift Question (middlin' long)

Jeff Zeitlin wrote :-
>  how do you
> start any of the following societies on the road to their
> industrial age ahead of their 'natural' schedule?

> Society 1: Rome, at the time of the fall of the Republic

Strengths :- government infrastructure and population base, advanced
skills in engineering and architecture.

Problems :- no societal interest in 'basic research'. Philosophy
borrowed from the Greeks. Religious organisations minor appendages of
the State (lack of groups to form 'technician' or 'scientist' groups
from).

Possible Catalytic Inventions :- gunpowder? the Bessemer process? steam
engines? (?the aerolipile had been demonstrated by Hero of Alexandria by
this stage??) Devices that have obvious military applications may be
most useful.

> Society 2: The British Empire, in the decades before the American
> Secession.

Strengths :- 'Researcher caste' (Royal Society) present. Worldwide
trading network. Superpower status.

Industrial Revolution probably inevitable at this point in time ; no
further intervention required??

[Although being able to accurately determine longitude a century 'ahead
of time' would make our world a very different place...]

> Society 3: The Caliphates, at the height of their expansion.

Strengths :- trade and economic ; one written language ; scholastic
tradition (Islam) ; superpower.

Disadvantages :- Caste society ; the encumbrance of Classical
philosophy.

Catalytic technologies as per (1) + navigational aids.

> Society 4: Mediæval Japan, about 1200AD

Feudal, pre-unification(? when was Meiji Restoration).
The option here may be to supply selected factions with superior
military technology and/or agricultural innovations.
Industrialisation may not be possible without a large enough population
base ; require political unification first?

> Society 5: Vikings, about 900AD

Strengths :- Explorers (?the best sailors of their time? ?Arabian,
Chinese merchants?)

Disadvantages :- clan structure, relatively small population base.

Useful Technologies - navigation and military ; agricultural techniques
to foster population growth at home.

Constructive suggestions and corrections are welcomed.

C'mon TMLers, let's get this topic a-rolling!

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 02:14:45 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Disaster Response (was Triage)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Monday, June 14, 1999 7:19 PM
Subject: Disaster Response (was Triage)


>Thanks for all the quick responses on triage.


>   I assume that the impact leaves everyone at least momentarily
>shocked and I'm making it a decreasingly less difficult task of
>Endurance+Intelligence to begin functioning rationally in the
>first minutes after the crash.

Personally, I'd seperate the two and perhaps come up with a little chart for
various effects. For example, a failure of an Endurance task might cause the
person to vomit, dry heave, react in shock to wounds they've received, stuff
like that. A failure on the Intelligence task might lead to temporary
madness, catatonia, complete and utter panic... whatever.

>(In the meantime, there is lots of
>screaming, moaning, and general aimless milling about.) Some
>people with scrapes, cuts, and bruises, and even more serious
>injuries will have their wits gathered before others who are
>unhurt. Several of those with skills that would be useful in
>handling this crisis are themselves among the injured. What
>skills or experience would give a bonus here?


The biggest advantage would likely go to people with experience in the
emergency medical profession. Generally, a high first aid rating is likely
to indicate prior experience in this area. Combat medics, emergency room
personnel, etc. would also fall into this category.

Next on the line would be people like fire fighters, police officers, and
members of civilian volunteer organizations.

Real experience in the military might give a distinct bonus, while "green"
military types might get less of a bonus.

Basically, anyone who has ever dealt with trauma situations is going to get
a bonus, whether it's simple lifeguard experience or 8 years as a combat
medic. Most of this is pretty obvious, but there *are* going to be more than
a few people whose experiences are not accurately reflected by their skill
sets.

Although I'll bet some people might say that age should be a factor, I'm not
positive. My brother's life was saved by a quick-acting teenaged lifeguard.
I was mugged several times in my teens, and never lost it or acted
irrationally. Same thing for the few accidents I've been involved in.

>   I'm also making it a test of leadership skill (including
>default levels) to determine whether a given person acts with
>initiative or waits to be told what to do.

Makes sense. Perhaps a second test of intelligence to see if they can
actually retain some semblance of rational thought. Even if they're not able
to take control of the situation effectively, the appearance of some sort of
order can help to create the real thing.

>A lot of inexperienced
>people will be trying to take charge of their immediate
>situations but failing in leadership tasks under the heavy
>demands of this crisis.

And alot of inexperienced people may be keeping calm and trying to figure
out ways that they can help. It doesn't take alot of experience to get a
group of people together to start putting out fires or pulling bits of
wreckage off of victims of the crash.

Two good films to watch to get a feel for normal people reacting in crisis
situations are the Poseidon Adventure and Night of the Living Dead (which is
closer in psychology to a disaster film than most disaster films). Both
versions of Night are fine, but if you're strapped for time go with the
original.

>There are several corporate and military
>types aboard who will probably be more effective once they get
>going, but so far they aren't the first ones on the ball, and
>there is no guarantee that they will be cooperating at first.


There's also no guarantee that they will be effective either.

>   Quite a few people have basic first-aid skill and there are a
>couple with some degree of medical skill, but to direct an
>organized triage effort, they will have to either apply
>leadership skills themselves or get the cooperation of whoever
>else is most effectively in charge.


If you've got *alot* of people, then it's likely that initially there will
be many groups acting independently at first. Once the situation gets a
little more normalized, the different groups will likely begin to cooperate.
Basically, what I'm trying to say is that the effort will start from the
ground up, not from the top down.

>   Survival skills (finding shelter, water, and food) will come
>into play fairly quickly, but I'm not that far along yet.
>   What probable effects and responses am I overlooking?


The military and corporate types that you're talking about might be real
jerks and they might try to impose "order" on the situation which might only
cause the situation to become more chaotic. On the other hand, there *are* a
class of people that just believe that *they* are the only ones who know
what they're doing and this can cause a good deal of friction between
different groups fulfilling the same roles.

Other than that, I don't think that you're missing too much. Nothing obvious
at least.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 03:23:41 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: TML Archives Dead?

Diespamer@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Greetings:
> 
> Anybody have a current address for the TML archives? Either they are dead or
> they've moved and I don't have the current address....
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Fred Kiesche

 I just visited the archives ( ftp.mpgn.com) using AOLs FTP engine, and was 
able to download several files...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 06:34:18 -0400
From: "Slack, Andy" <andy.slack@gb.unisys.com>
Subject: Re: Disaster Response (was Triage)

A couple of thoughts...
1. IIRC the standard advice about staying with the wreckage [see Shadow's
post
   on Triage] is to do so because it's easy to spot, _unless_ you are in a
   jungle, in which case the searchers won't see the wreckage anyway, so you
   should follow the nearest stream [which eventually turns into a river and
   should lead to civilisation]. Do those who have crashed _want_ to be
found
   by the searchers, or are the searchers bad guys?
2. A number of management training courses use something called "The Desert
   Survival Situation" to teach teamwork, if you can get hold of the papers
   for it it makes a nice scenario. ("OK, you've escaped from the wreckage.
   There are six of you and you have a map, an auto pistol, a parachute,
   a bottle of 500 salt tablets...")
3. For another slant on this situation, check out the book or the movie of
   "Flight of the Phoenix" by Elleston Trevor. (Air crash victims build a
   smaller plane out of the wreckage and fly out of the desert.)

Andy
[back after lo, these many months. Hi!]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 00:54:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> 
> <<snip>>
>> 
>> > Society 5: Vikings, about 900AD
>> 
>> The hardest part here will be getting enough people together to do
>> anything industrial. The population is too scattered. At a guess, the
>> first step has to be improving agriculture. Better crops, and the
>> moldboard plow. And. again, the horse collar.
>
> You might also want to look at increasing their socio-econo-political
> sophistication, by introducing such concepts as the modern nation-state,
> free market economics, and, regretfully, bureaucracy.  That way, once
> they begin to build larger settlements (a.k.a. "cities"), they can
> effectively govern and coordinate these settlements as part of a larger
> state.  This coordination will improve their ability to use whatever
> advances they obtain or develop.

Actually, the Norse had a quite effective "government". The "Thing" or
"Allthing" was an early form of congress or parliment. Iceland is noted
for having one that dates back to 1000 AD. 

They were quite well able to govern large groups. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #744
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 15 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 745



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Advice on Getting Up to Speed
Ebokin Image
Re: Size of Enterprise
Re: Dr. Evil's monologue
Re:Book Name (was Disaster Response (was Triage))
Request for help
Energy weapons (was Re: Superluminal Mesons)
Re: Biology in space
RE: Disaster Response
Re: The Uplift Question 
Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters
Meiji Restoration
Re: Disaster Response (was Triage)
G:T Ship Details - A Request
RE: Superluminal Mesons
Re: The Uplift Question
Re: The Uplift Question
Re: Book Name (was Disaster Response (was Triage))
Re: Book Name (was Disaster Response (was Triage)) 
Re: The Uplift Question
RE: Book Name (Author search)
Re: Size of Enterprise
Re: Size of Enterprise
Re: Size of Enterprise
Technology Marches On...
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #742

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 06:40:21 -0500
From: "Slack, Andy" <andy.slack@gb.unisys.com>
Subject: Re: Advice on Getting Up to Speed

Brian G. Vaughan asked...
>I'm considering picking it up again, and, given how enormously expensive
buying materials can be, I'd appreciate some advice on what to shop for. I'm
inclined towards GURPS--I don't have any real experience with it, but I'd
like to cross-pollinate with other GURPS materials. But I'm also wondering
if it would be worth waiting for T5 (if it isn't a pipe dream.)<

T5 is currently in development, it's an evolution of T4 from what I have
seen. The character generation, skills and task system are in beta testing,
i.e. if you email Marc Miller and ask him nicely he may send you the Word
files for them. No release date that I know of.

For GT, I have put my thoughts on this up at:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andyslack/Blue/Security/security.ht
m

Assuming you want to stick with the Imperium background and
have a bunch of CT stuff already... in descending order of priority IMHO:
1. Start by downloading the latest free version of GURPS Lite from
   http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite
   At a push, you could go without the Basic Set for some time if you
   had this. The way it handles skills like Mechanic, Engineer etc. is
   also closer to CT/MT than full GURPS. It is certainly less scary for
   new players than 500+ pages of rulebooks.
2. GURPS Basic Set, Third Edition, Revised and GURPS Traveller.
   This gets you the rules, character generation, Traveller-specific
   equipment, starship building, background on the Imperium milieu.
3. GURPS Space is IMHO mostly useful for world-building, and therefore if
   you already have your subsectors mapped you could do without it.
4. GURPS Compendium I has the definitions of some advantages, skills etc
   in the GT character templates, but again if you're converting an
   existing campaign [or not using the template method for characters]
   you could do without it.
5. Ultra Tech and Ultra Tech 2 are collections of cool gadgetry, but 
   you've got plenty of widgetry in GT and GURPS Space.
6. GURPS Vehicles is only of interest if you want to design your own
   vehicles and firearms. If you just want to do ships, that's in GT.

If you want to create your own background, you need GURPS Space more
than GT.

YMMV.
Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 08:14:41 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Ebokin Image

The image of the Ebokin in Behind the Claw is very different from 
the one in The Traveller Adventure.  Does anyone here know why 
the change was made?

Paul Schirf
Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 08:43:35 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Size of Enterprise

>>Constitution Class Cruiser
>>CraftID:	Constitution Class Cruiser, TL 17, Mcr. 25591

Glenn said;
>Crew of *80*? According to the original series...

Hey!  I was just trying to make a ship roughly equivalent in size and
"firepower".  It took me five minutes and I had no ST material (aside from
the everpresent Web, and my memory) to draw on.  I had no intention of
reproducing the Enterprise exactly.  For one thing, I would have to come up
with Warp and Impulse engines.

All other messages of the nature "Hey you forgot..." will be ignored.

Pete

P.S. How many tons *would* a bowling alley take up...


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 08:39:30 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Dr. Evil's monologue

scott brandsgaard posted:
>
>>I am looking for a copy of the monologue of Dr Evil from Austin Powers,
>>where he describes his childhood in Rangoon, can somebody help?
>
>From a page listing Austin Powers quotes.
<snip>

I called the store and asked the salesperson who answered to read
it for me. Your quote is accurate...and she didn't *sound* like she
was 16. Honest. How was I to know? What, just because I had
to define "buggery" for her? Sheesh, some people...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 9:55:34 -0400
From: SMITHW@newton.hartwick.edu
Subject: Re:Book Name (was Disaster Response (was Triage))

The book was called _Space Prison_. The passengers were deliberately marooned
by a race that was almost at war with Earth - the passenger ship was intended
as a colony ship, to set up a safe colony in case Earth lost the coming
war. The colony ship got caught, and marooned on a very tough world.

There was a sequel, _Space Barbarian(s?)_, recounting the colonists - now
toughened by their generation or two on a rough world - going out into the
stars and kicking alien butt big time. It seems, at the end of the first
book, that they managed to lure some aliens into landing near their
"primitive" village, and got themselves a starship.

The first book was a good read, full of some good bits...like one of the
best and brightest of the colony risking his life on a mineral survey
mission, putting up a marker cairn on one of the planet's few iron
deposits before freezing to death in a blizzard.

I don't recall the author, though.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 02:24:41 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Request for help

I've just had a major system crash here and one of the things I lost was my 
notes on the Luriani. If anybody copied them when I posted them here or can 
remember roughly when I posted them, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 09:38:03 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Energy weapons (was Re: Superluminal Mesons)

>>FTL travel = Time travel.

[snip]

>I have no special knowledge about the future.


Oops. I saw this was already answered, and didn't mean to send that reply.
That'll teach me to skip a few days of reading the list! Apologies everyone.

ObTrav: What is the assumed velocity of a bolt from a plasma gun? And how
the heck do you impart that velocity to it? (This has been talked about
before, but I simply don't remember).

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:56:24 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Biology in space

Leonard Erickson writes:
"Not necessarily. In some ways, the cloud could be treated 
as an ecosystem. It's definitely complex enough to have 
*internal* competition between different processes for 
doinmg the same thing."

	I have no problem with replicating units within the cloud 
	competing and evolving independantly, but then the cloud
	is an ecosystem, not an organism. Big difference.

"This would be a *very* strange sort of "evolution", but I seem 
to recall something similar being suggested as a possiblity for 
other planets."

	Not strange, once you realize that what you have is a
	population on organisms living in the cloud. There are
	still issues of primary productivity (where is the energy
	coming from?) and reaction rates (how do molecules meet
	each other regularly?), but it could be similar to life
	in the ocean in some ways. Although we have little idea
	of what other planets will hold, the basic principals of
	evolution are not (as far as we know) Terra-specific.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:13:07 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Disaster Response

Thad Coons writes:
"Next question: what about psychological effects?
<snipped>

	Just a few thoughts:
	Bear in mind that training and experience are not the 
	same thing. I have seen people in advanced first aid 
	courses faint at the sight of a picture of a wound.
	How the crew responds will be crucial, as they will be
	the default heirarchy unless and until somebody else 
	takes over. If a power vacuum persists for long, people
	may well become dispirited. Keeping the uninjured (or 
	lightly injured) busy will help things: they may carry 
	casualties, hold equipment, talk to patients, etc. Note 
	that seriously injured humans have been known to walk 
	around after an accident, and one of the signs of shock
	is restlessness (I'm refering here to medical shock,
	the failure of the circulatory system to properly 
	provide the body with O2, food, etc.).

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:16:59 EDT
From: TDRandall@aol.com
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question 

TL being what is generally available at a location 
	or 
TL of items produceable at/by that location....

I've always interpreted it in the first way too, Mark.  Far Trader disagrees, 
if I read it right.  Their discussion behind TLs growing so slowly on the 
backwater worlds in places when high TL worlds are "near by" seemed to be 
based on the argument that if the Low TL worlds can just buy the stuff from 
the high TL worlds there is no incentive to increase their own capability.

I still like the first way.  It can give more of a disconnected/frontier feel 
to a world deep inside Imperial space.  Somehow the second just gives me the 
feel of opening a mail order catalog to order what you don't have at hand -- 
anything desired is available at reasonably minimal effort.

Tony

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:19:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters

On 06/15/99 00:00:39 you wrote:
>
>>Jump masking certainly creates logistical problems for shipping companies, 
>>but it's not clear that it needs to be a business problem.  First of all, 
>>there's no reason the lines can't charge a standard price all year that evens
>>out the cost highs and lows over the course of the year.  
>
>Arbitrage, as you explain so well in FT, would sort this out. Otherwise this is
>the prime opportunity for Free Traders.  Chase the mask minima and catch the
>Megacorps out on their standard pricing. This is one of those financial
>perpetual motion machines you warn us about in FT :)

	Even at its most extreme, I don't think a free trader is ever going to be able to under-
cut a liner because of standard prices and masking.  In general, liners can break-even on half 
the price a free trader can.  Furthermore, standardized pricing makes sense in the context of 
more long-term relationships between lines and customers.  There are all kinds of mechanisms for 
creating this, from "frequent flier" bonuses to special services.  Realistically, companies with 
regular shipping needs are likely to sign annual or longer contracts with a particular 
line.  These sorts of practices would mitigate the impact of temporary and infrequent 
undercutting by free traders even if it could be achieved.

>Again, USL is more economic than SL. So restrict away.

	USL is definitely cheaper.  By volume, most cargo is likely hauled this way.



- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
co-author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 08:51:34 MST
From: Jim Moss <jkmoss@hotmail.com>
Subject: Meiji Restoration

Emperor Mutsuhito (great-grandfather of the current Emperor) declared the 
Meiji Restoration in 1868.

J

p.s. no, I couldn't find an ObTrav to go in here...ideas?


- ----Original Message Follows----
(? when was Meiji Restoration)


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:53:18 -0400
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: Disaster Response (was Triage)

Purely in terms of running the disaster scenario, as a GM, I'd
probably pre-generate as much as possible.

See, when the crash actually happens things should go very quickly.
You'll want to be able to tell the PCs what they see, without
extensive dice rolling.  After the initial impact of the scene, when
people start taking control and the PCs actions might matter, things
can slow down a little, but until then the scene should run quickly.

For the players' sake, you may consider shading the rules on the
behalf of the PCs (but not telling them).  This is even easier to do
if you're pre-rolling some of the NPC results - just add a little time
before the NPCs are coherent. :>  It is really boring to sit around a
game with your character incoherent while the NPCs take care of
everything.

Another thing to consider is asking the players "So, do you have any
reason to think your PC would recover quickly?"  They may come up with
surprising, and reasonable, answers.  Unfortunately it doesn't go well
with keeping the scene going fast.  But it means the player who
_thinks_ his character should have a bonus reacting won't be annoyed
because you overlooked that reason on your predetermined list of
bonuses.


	- Robert Ringrose
	  ringrose@ascent.com

Can you tell that I'm all for bending the rules into pretzels if it
makes the game more fun for the players?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:43:15 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: G:T Ship Details - A Request

Fellow sophonts,

In looking over the basic G:T book, I noticed the
external view of ship on pg. 66. I haven't seen
this design before and was wondering if anyone has
information as to what class ship it is, what
political entity it's normally associated with,
design details (tonnage, capabilities), original
source, etc.

I'd appreciate any feedback.

Thanks!

David

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 09:54:58 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: RE: Superluminal Mesons

>>>> (begin quoted material)
I'm pretty sure that one of the key factors is that the duration of
the
jump *can't* be the same in both frames. So, for example, they'd say
your jump only took 3 days, and you'd say that *their* jump only took
3
days. 

If jump duration *is* "frame invariant", then that gives an absolute
reference frame and relativity is out the window anyway. 

- - -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>>>> (end quoted material)
My impression of what Marc has said on the subject of Jump is that time
in Jump space (whatever that is) suggests that Jump is indeed frame
invariant, or at least not very sensitive to relativity effects.
Discussing this with a co-worker suggests the following:  The
variability in the time that a Jump lasts, and the other side effects
sometimes encountered may be enough to account for relativity effects
once they are worked over by Jump Space.  This may suggest that if one
initiates a Jump at a relativistic speed, one could expect that the time
spent in Jump will be towards the lower end of the possible Jump
time-frames.  On the other hand, Marc has often indicated that Jump is
normally undertaken while the ship is at "rest" or at least at very low
speed (I have always assumed that this rest or low speed is relative to
the planetary body the ship is leaving).  One could easily assume that
there is a REASON for this practice, and that this might suggest
mis-Jumps may be more common if one enters Jump while travelling at
relativistic speeds.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:55:19 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

At 06:23 PM 6/14/99 GMT, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>Thus, the following question for discussion:
>
>Given the constraint that you may not import examples of
>technology for use, but may only import knowledge, how do you
>start any of the following societies on the road to their
>industrial age ahead of their 'natural' schedule?
>
>(Finally, if you're using ideas from SF, that's OK - just let us
>know author and title, and ISBN if available.)
>
>Society 2: The British Empire, in the decades before the American
>Secession.

Foreigner : A Novel of First Contact 
by C. J. Cherryh 
Daw Books;
ISBN: 0886776376

Also see 'Invader' & 'Inheritor', same author, same characters.

This is what the book is really about, skip this paragraph to get to the 
on topic stuff...
Although this is really a great look into how an alien race differs
psychologically from ours (we think 'I am becoming friends with him.', they
think, 'I am entering into his sphere of influence' or something like that.
The word 'friend' and the alien's corrolary are untranslatable - we don't
have the hardwiring (in our brains) to understand them, and they don't 
understand 'like', 'love', etc... We both understand logic.

The alien's have just developed the steam engine, but are essentially at the
time of the british empire, sailing ships, etc... The peace agreement between
the (stranded) humans and the aliens requires that they slowly integrate
technology. This is good for both parties, but I won't get further into it
because then I would be dropping spoilers... (all this stuff is explained
right in the beginning of the book).

If only I can remember the book about the intelligent Oort cloud now...

- -- 
"Glorious, stirring sight!", murmured Toad, never offering to move. "The
poetry of motion! The real way to travel! The only way to travel! Here to-day
- -- in the next week to-morrow!"   -- Robert Grahame, The Wind in the Willows
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 10:43:01 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> > Society 5: Vikings, about 900AD
> 
> The hardest part here will be getting enough people together to do

No, the hardest part will be motivating them to spend their summers
doing something other than going a-viking in northern Europe and Russia.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 11:04:18 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Book Name (was Disaster Response (was Triage))

SMITHW@newton.hartwick.edu wrote:
> 

> The first book was a good read, full of some good bits...like one of the
> best and brightest of the colony risking his life on a mineral survey
> mission, putting up a marker cairn on one of the planet's few iron
> deposits before freezing to death in a blizzard.
> 

BINGO! That's the book! I remember that scene to this day some 30 years
later; it's the most vivid in the book.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank You!

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:39:29 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Book Name (was Disaster Response (was Triage)) 

> The book was called _Space Prison
< snip >

> There was a sequel, _Space Barbarian(s?)
The Space Barbarians
< snip >

> I don't recall the author, though.
Tom Godwin

M

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:48:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

On 06/15/99 11:16:59 you wrote:
>
>TL being what is generally available at a location 
>	or 
>TL of items produceable at/by that location....
>
>I've always interpreted it in the first way too, Mark.  Far Trader disagrees, 
>if I read it right.  Their discussion behind TLs growing so slowly on the 
>backwater worlds in places when high TL worlds are "near by" seemed to be 
>based on the argument that if the Low TL worlds can just buy the stuff from 
>the high TL worlds there is no incentive to increase their own capability.

I think you've characterized this fairly well.  Not only can Low TL worlds "just by the stuff" 
from their High TL neighbors, it is actually much _cheaper_ to do this than produce it 
themselves.  This is what puts Low TL worlds in such an economic development bind.

>I still like the first way.  It can give more of a disconnected/frontier feel 
>to a world deep inside Imperial space.  Somehow the second just gives me the 
>feel of opening a mail order catalog to order what you don't have at hand -- 
>anything desired is available at reasonably minimal effort.

	This is almost the case.  Anyone on a trade route can either place an order or simply buy 
from a business that has already imported the good.  It's hard to imagine why this wouldn't be 
the case unless there's a chronic shortage of shipping capacity.  The biggest barrier is not 
difficulty, but poverty.  Take another look at the per-capita income of a Low TL world.  They 
simply don't have the money to import high-tech equipment, which means they'll have to mostly 
make do with locally made goods.
	Furthermore, there's no reason the imported tech has to be pervasive.  Think about Africa 
or Central Asia.  They have imported trucks, radios, TVs, and even some computers.  But there 
are still plenty of people living in the traditional fashion with very few modern trappings. Low 
TL worlds will likely be the same.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
co-author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:49:58 -0400
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
Subject: RE: Book Name (Author search)

Walt Wrote...

>There was a sequel, _Space Barbarian(s?)_, recounting the >colonists -
now
>toughened by their generation or two on a rough world - going out >into
the
>stars and kicking alien butt big time. It seems, at the end of the
>first
>book, that they managed to lure some aliens into landing near >their
>"primitive" village, and got themselves a starship.

I have a paperback of this title by Tom Goodwin. Does this ring any
bells? I haven't read it and I may the name spelling wrong. I'll check
when I get home.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 12:50:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Size of Enterprise

At 08:43 AM 6/15/99 -0400, you wrote:

>P.S. How many tons *would* a bowling alley take up...

About ten tons per lane, assuming about 60' from foul line to back of the
lane, lanes 41" wide plus gutters, vertical clearence of 3 meters, and some
extra room for ball return machinary.

Snack Bar extra.

Gearheads Uber Alles!
- --
Douglas E. Berry - dberry@hooked.net - http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

With every passing hour our solar system comes forty-three thousand
miles closer to globular cluster M13 in the constellation Hercules,
and still there are some misfits who continue to insist that there
is no such thing as progress. -- Ransom K. Ferm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:26:33
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Size of Enterprise

At 12:50 PM 6/15/99, I wrote:

>About ten tons per lane, assuming about 60' from foul line to back of the
>lane, lanes 41" wide plus gutters, vertical clearence of 3 meters, and some
>extra room for ball return machinary.

Almost forgot.  The lanes will be approx. 14 1.5m squares long, 1 square
wide.  This is lane and target only, and does not include the scoring
table, which should be built as a crewstation.

Sorry for the omission, hope no one was inconvenienced.  :)

- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 15:43:15 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Size of Enterprise

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> At 12:50 PM 6/15/99, I wrote:
> 
> >About ten tons per lane, assuming about 60' from foul line to back of the
> >lane, lanes 41" wide plus gutters, vertical clearence of 3 meters, and some
> >extra room for ball return machinary.
> 
> Almost forgot.  The lanes will be approx. 14 1.5m squares long, 1 square
> wide.  This is lane and target only, and does not include the scoring
> table, which should be built as a crewstation.

I would recommend using a bridge crewstation, in order to give the other
bowlers a place to sit while waiting for their turns....

> 
> Sorry for the omission, hope no one was inconvenienced.  :)

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 16:16:21 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Technology Marches On...

Here's an excerpt from a BBC-posted announcement.
The full story can be found at

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_370000/370035.stm

You'll probably need to paste the URL together.


- ----- quote ------

Biological computer prototype unveiled 

By BBC News Online Science Editor Dr David Whitehouse 

A large-scale prototype of a computer that could be
smaller than a living cell has been designed by an
Israeli scientist. 

Some scientists believe that, in the future, small
biological computers could roam our bodies monitoring
our health and correcting any problems they may find. 

The prototype has been developed by Professor Ehud
Shapiro of the Computer Science Department at the
Weizmann Institute of Science.....

- ----- endquote ----

ObTrav: I wonder if such a computer could catch
a cold. After all, colds are caused by a Virus...

(ducks and runs)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:24:14 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #742

On Mon, 14 Jun 1999 19:16:46 -0400 (EDT), Mark Watson
<markw@antares.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[Quoting me...]

>> There seems to be an assumption in Traveller that the Tech Level
>> is based on _native-grown_ tech - i.e., that the planet in
>> question discovers and implements the technology without outside
>> aid.
 
>I don't think that's the case. The tech level is the level of
>technology locally available, wherever it came from. In WBH, it's
>the upper limit of technology generally available on the planet -
>WBH then goes on to break it down into particular technical areas
>- medical, transport. etc.

Actually, you're quite correct.  It perhaps would have been a bit
more accurate to say that the _progression_ from TL to TL seems
to assume yadda yadda yadda.  But even if I'm way off base on
that as well (I don't think so, though), the Uplift Question
still stands - without importing material or finished goods, only
knowledge, how do you go about doing a tech uplift as indicated?
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #745
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 15 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 746



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Space barbarians
Re: Hydrogen Blast radius
Energy weapons (was Re: Superluminal Mesons)
Energy weapons (was Re: Superluminal Mesons)
Re: Space barbarians
Re: Hydrogen Blast radius
re Hydrogen Explosion
re: G:T Ship Details - A Request
Re: The Uplift Question 
Re: re Hydrogen Explosion
Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters
Re: Far ports and security
LASH Operations
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #742 
Re: The Uplift Question
Re: Book Name (was Disaster Response (was Triage))
Re: Superluminal Mesons
Re: Disaster Response
Re: Disaster Response
Re: Triage

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 22:39:04 +0100
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Space barbarians

The Space Barbarians (& proesumably its earlier predecessor) was written by
Tom Godwin (pyramid books).

There's a copy on the shelf behind me.

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 13:54:12 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Blast radius

Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:31:29 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>*IF* there's a spark once the hydrogen *gas* has mixed sufficiently
>with air, it'll burn. An explosion is *very* unlikely. And since
>hydrogen is lighter than air it ought to rise and any flames will be
>pretty local.

At first, there will be just a fire.  But as the hydrogen burns
out of the tank and oxygen mixes in, you will eventually get
to an explosive combination.  Then the tank will go up.  I don't
think it will be humungous explosion thought.  Being a 100 yards
away and behind something should do it.  The time it takes will depend on
how big a breach there is in the tank.  A larger breach will let it reach
an explosive mixture sooner, but will let the energy disapate less
violently.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:57:06 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Energy weapons (was Re: Superluminal Mesons)

> From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>

> ObTrav: What is the assumed velocity of a bolt from a plasma gun? And how
> the heck do you impart that velocity to it? (This has been talked about
> before, but I simply don't remember).

Waaay faster than the plasma gun or BFG-9000 in Doom.  Faster than a
gauss rifle but slower than a laser?  I wonder what the answer really
is.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 14:54:29 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Energy weapons (was Re: Superluminal Mesons)

> From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>

> ObTrav: What is the assumed velocity of a bolt from a plasma gun? And how
> the heck do you impart that velocity to it? (This has been talked about
> before, but I simply don't remember).

It's gotta be waaay faster than the plasma gun in Doom, and faster still
than the BFG-9000.  Waaaay faster.  I guess that's not very helpful.  I
wonder what the real answer is (besides slower than a laser and faster
than a gauss rifle).

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 15:42:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Space barbarians

Wow, Thanks to this I found an awesome resource:

http://www.sfsite.com/isfdb/

A huge searchable database of SF author and title informaton.

The Space Prison was originally released as 

The Survivors, by Gnome Press, 1958. 

Rereleased (presumably as paperback) by Pyramid as Space Prison (1960)

MJ Dougherty wrote:
> 
> The Space Barbarians (& proesumably its earlier predecessor) was written by
> Tom Godwin (pyramid books).
> 
> There's a copy on the shelf behind me.
> 
> MJD

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 18:42:12 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Blast radius

Was written:

>At first, there will be just a fire.  But as the hydrogen burns
>out of the tank and oxygen mixes in, you will eventually get
>to an explosive combination.  Then the tank will go up.  I don't
>think it will be humungous explosion thought.  Being a 100 yards
>away and behind something should do it.  >______________________________


I think that what is being described is called a BLVE, a boiling liquid
vapor explosion, are there any firemen, fire inspectors  or OSHA inspectors
out there on the list who can give a really cogent account of the effect?

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 23:50:01 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re Hydrogen Explosion

Thanks to everyone who responded.

The courier will crash and fracture, with small fires. The players will get
a few minutes to escape then I fry the courier with a hydrogen fire, which
may just take out the Marine G -Carrier that's landing in pursuit.

NB is it likely a ship would store O2 reserves in liquid form? ;-)

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 23:45:36 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: G:T Ship Details - A Request

 "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com> wrote:
>In looking over the basic G:T book, I noticed the
>external view of ship on pg. 66. I haven't seen
>this design before and was wondering if anyone has
>information as to what class ship it is, what
>political entity it's normally associated with,
>design details (tonnage, capabilities), original
>source, etc.

Looks like a stylised Dragon SDB with curves to me....

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 00:24:06 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question 

> On 06/15/99 11:16:59 you wrote:
> >
> >TL being what is generally available at a location 
> >	or 
> >TL of items produceable at/by that location....
> >
> >I've always interpreted it in the first way too, Mark.  Far Trader disagrees, 
> >if I read it right. 

> I think you've characterized this fairly well.  Not only can Low TL worlds "just by the stuff" 
> from their High TL neighbors, it is actually much _cheaper_ to do this than produce it 
> themselves.  This is what puts Low TL worlds in such an economic development bind.
> 
Looking at my various copies of Traveller stuff (pre-GURPS), 
- - Megatraveller specifically says that the TL is the tech level generally 
available (as do WBH and Grand Census).
- - Book 3 says it's the "general quality and capability of local industry" and 
indicates the type of goods "in general use".
So, pre-GURPS, it looks like imported technology is very much not pervasive. 
And that is the way most people I know have been playing the game.

> >I still like the first way.  It can give more of a disconnected/frontier feel 
> >to a world deep inside Imperial space.  Somehow the second just gives me the 
> >feel of opening a mail order catalog to order what you don't have at hand -- 
> >anything desired is available at reasonably minimal effort.
> 
> 	This is almost the case.  Anyone on a trade route can either place an order or simply buy 
> from a business that has already imported the good.  It's hard to imagine why this wouldn't be 
> the case unless there's a chronic shortage of shipping capacity.  The biggest barrier is not 
> difficulty, but poverty.  Take another look at the per-capita income of a Low TL world.  They 
> simply don't have the money to import high-tech equipment, which means they'll have to mostly 
> make do with locally made goods.
> 	Furthermore, there's no reason the imported tech has to be pervasive.  Think about Africa 
> or Central Asia.  They have imported trucks, radios, TVs, and even some computers.  But there 
> are still plenty of people living in the traditional fashion with very few modern trappings. Low 
> TL worlds will likely be the same.
> 
There are several barriers besides poverty:
- - no repair infrastructure/skills/spare parts, except imported ones
- - up to TL4, poor distribution networks; up to TL7/8, global distribution is slower than interstellar distribution.
- - no enabling infrastructure (why buy a phone if there's no network, or a TV if there are no broadcasters, or no energy supply grid, or a car if there's no refined fuels)
- - poverty and low population concentrations -> no incentive to invest in supporting infrastructure (why build and supply a global chain of WalMarts to service a global population of say, 5000, or even 500,000).
- - unlike today's surface shipping, the cost of moving goods does not decline rapidly as volume increases: though there is some saving on hull construction, propellant costs are directly related to displacement. Therefore less of a significant advantage in shipping in bulk. 
- - slow communications increase risk of mass shipping, due to lack of foreknowledge of price fluctuations

All these factors taken into consideration:
- - on low TL worlds, imported technology concentrates at the starport(s) with very little or slow leakage to other centres
- - using the same assumptions as in Far Trader (and eg Merchant Prince), high TL=high value, so wealth concentrates round the starport also
- - mass shipping concentrates on low risk, low fluctuation items (typically food and raw materials - in general it will be pretty easy to determine the native ability to supply, the ability of competing/surrounding worlds to supply and demand will be fairly constant, so pricing is alot easier).
- - technology items are traded on a small scale at high margins within the starport(s)

Mark 
PS: The copy of Book 3 I picked out was a second hand copy. The previous owner has written in, in pencil, some of the gaps in the tech level table. So TL0 flying is "jumping" and a TL0 computer is "fingers".

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 19:23:42 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: re Hydrogen Explosion

Was written:


>The courier will crash and fracture, with small fires.

Snip>

>NB is it likely a ship would store O2 reserves in liquid form? ;-)


If modern passenger aircraft can be as used as a reference point some have
emergency O2 in tanks others have O2 generators.    Its my understanding
that O2 generators are presently predominant.   They generate O2 through
chemical action,  the only draw back is they get pretty hot in the process.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 00:40:13 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Free Ports & Drop Freighters

>Now I'm sure someone will point out that I can make the plane of the
>orbit perpendicular to the line between the two other systems. Fine.
>Now stick in a *third* system at right angles to the line. We're back
>in the same boat. *It* will be masked for part of an orbit.

True, worst case, low probability.  *Most* systems would be OK.

>And for that matter, it's *not* that hard to jump to a portion of the
>destination system that *isn't* masked, and then just boost at however
>many gees your ship can do in normal space.

The point of far ports is to minimise m-drive size, and time spent in-system
(around 0.3 G and 8 hours). So if I have to do that I will fall back on drop
freighters.

<later>
>> I was assuming a moving far-port, that was kept as close to the main-world 
>> as possible, whilst staying unmasked, and its planned position was freely 
>> available

>Ouch! That's going to eat fuel like crazy. You'll have to redesign that
>farport as a huge *ship*, with all the extra stuff that requires,
>drives, lots more fuel, etc. 

GT, you don't need fuel for the m-drive...

I was assuming an appropriate eccentric orbit could be found to minimise the
amount you had to move (if at all). Nearest star at mask minimum, furthest at
mask maximum. Therefore minimising the size of the m-drive you would need -
occassional push at aphelion & perihelion.

Your later post on using trojan points looks much better though.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 00:40:28 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Far ports and security

>BTW, a good spot for a far port might be at the leading or trailing
>Trojan point of the mainworld. 

Great idea. It works well enough for a main world in the hab zone for any star
above size K0 (using First In figures). And for a small M or K star a far port
in an unmasked orbit isn't that far in any case.  The trojans of a world in the
hab zone of a large A0 star are quite some way however - worst case could be 10
AU.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 00:46:31 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: LASH Operations

>Go back and reread "LASH Operations", p. FT65 sidebar. The only time delay
>for the freighter is that required to drive from the breakout point on one
>leg to the jump point for the next. The lighters for the inbound and
>outbound cargo are different, and already loaded and waiting. Freight rates
>for LASH tenders include a 50% overage in lighters to make this possible.

I had read it and hadn't interpreted it like that on the first or second time of
reading. I see that you could read it like that, though there is an extra delay
for refueling in the text (this could probably be eliminated by docking with
fast oilers on the way to the exit j-point). The (illegal) LASH design in the
appendix could also be taken to be suggesting replacement lighters.  I guess it
needs to be made more explicit.

So the only real difference between what I was suggesting and the LASH operation
as described is that:
- - I choose a jump entry point that is the same as the jump exit point
- - The outbound freight, fuel & crew is waiting at the jump entry point and not
the port.
- - I don't have a refuelling delay.
- - I use a single USL lighter.

The first three are just a different choice of logistics - all pretty standard
stuff. 

The USL thing means I am always dependant on in-system SL lighters - the
economics seem to dictate this, though I am wavering. Note the LASH design has
to pay the starport fee and extra berthing for the streamlining overhead of
every lighter, whereas a singe USL lighter only pays it once and pays less.

BTW I am considering using a standard oiler as the fuel tanks of a jump section
*directly* - so no refuel delay, standard components and free fuel! (if you own
the lighter).

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 00:52:06 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #742 

> the Uplift Question
> still stands - without importing material or finished goods, only
> knowledge, how do you go about doing a tech uplift as indicated?

Hmmm .... actually I'd argue that tech uplift is actually a question not of 
invention but of consciously putting in place infrastructure to make the 
introduction of the new technology useful. eg introduction of automobiles 
requires refined fuels, places to supply refined fuels close enough that a car 
can travel between them on a full tank, distribution of fuel to retail 
centers, spare parts networks, trained mechanics, tyre production and retail 
etc. Hence the cost. I think that Pocket Empires reflects this quite well by 
placing a cost on technical advancement. However:

- - if you look at the Uplift rules in Pocket Empires, locally bootstrapped 
uplift requires surplus resources, and if you then apply the rules to see what 
surplus resources are available, by and large they simply aren't around for 
poor worlds over short timescales.

- - uplift by outside intervention requires even more surplus resources, but 
because many of the high TL worlds are relatively low-pop, they probably don't 
have the resources either! The only worlds with capability are those with 
population codes of about 8 upwards AND TL 10 (Traveller TL) plus. And there 
are only one or two of these powerhouses per subsector. And they are busy 
building and supporting the Imperial navy.

- - everyone has an interest in the status quo (except maybe Dulinor), plus the 
Imperium enforces the status quo, so there is a general feeling of stagnation. 
Once Cleon hits town all the meddling in the affairs of your neighbours stops. 
Real world example: in Afghanistan at the time of the Russian invasion, many 
of the tribesmen were still carrying round rifles they captured from the 
British and/or the Russians in the 19th Century. As a result of the conflict, 
they acquired high end military technology from the West and Pakistan, etc. If 
there hadn't been a conflict, or nobody had been allowed to intervene, they'd 
still have had to fight with 19th century rifles. Also try reading Keith 
Roberts' Pavane, an alternate history where, due to the Spanish Armada winning 
and establishing a Catholic hegemony in Europe, technological change has 
slowed to a crawl (even if you don't agree with the argument, you should read 
this book, though).

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 15:09:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

In mail you write:
(Please set your margins to 72 characters and use a fixed pitch font
when composing messages)

>    This is almost the case.  Anyone on a trade route can either place
> an order or simply buy from a business that has already imported the
> good.  It's hard to imagine why this wouldn't be the case unless
> there's a chronic shortage of shipping capacity.  The biggest barrier
> is not difficulty, but poverty.  Take another look at the per-capita
> income of a Low TL world.  They simply don't have the money to import
> high-tech equipment, which means they'll have to mostly make do with
> locally made goods.

>         Furthermore, there's no reason the imported tech has to be
> pervasive.  Think about Africa or Central Asia.  They have imported
> trucks, radios, TVs, and even some computers.  But there are still
> plenty of people living in the traditional fashion with very few
> modern trappings. Low TL worlds will likely be the same.

But the high tech stuff will pop up in the *oddest* places. For
example, most third world countries either have or are installing quite
modern phone systems. Even if it's mostly at the "one phone for the
village" level. Cell relays or even satellite phones are a *hell* of a
lot cheaper than running wire through the back country. And they don't
require near as much maintenance.

Plus places like India and some places in Africa where they provide
villages with a satellite receiver and a TV so the villagers can learn
better farming techniques, birth control, and general health info.

So players can get "surprised" when the "primitive nomads" they left
behind after stealing the eye of the idol (or whatever) have radioed
the local police and there's a bunch of cops waiting for them at the
entrance to the starport. Don't forget that even if they are in an air
vehicle, the port authorities are not likely to be amused if they try
flying it over the barrier. After all, extrality *does* require that
you let the locals have a crack at folks trying to escape into the
port. :-)

My other favorite "high tech on low tech" dodge is the native guide who
amazes the players with how well he can predict the weather. Until they
find out he's got a pocket radio or vid unit that he's been catching
the satellite info on!

Both are quite reasonable investments for a person or group on such a
world. The nomads *will* want to contact the outside sometimes, say for
medical help, and it beats the hell out of sending a runner. 

I expect that even *with* the low incomes, most low tech worlds will
get a satellite weather monitoring network early on, and probably
something like the Iridium satellite phone system not much later. As
well as some satellite transmitters for radio/TV.

The cost of the *satellites* involved isn't all that high. *Especially*
when they don't have to be miniaturized to death and built to function
without maintenance. 

Anyplace that has a *real* port can easily place (or have placed)
satellites. And getting maintainence done is easy too. 

I expect that most of the satellite networks are placed by folks for
*free*, because they plan to make their profits selling the phones and
receivers. Even worlds with class E or X ports could have a satellite
network. The corporation that owned the satellites would just have
ships visit every so often (6 months? a year?) to check the satellites,
and see if the folks at the trading post needed more stock or parts for
repairing damaged ground units. 

Just about an large scale government is an *easy* sell for the phones
and the comm & weather satellites. The phones give them a way to keep
their military linked both to each other and to headquarters.

The weather satellites are obviously useful. What's it worth to *know*
that you've got a thunderstorm coming during harvest? Or when the rain
will let up when you are getting ready to attack.

The comm sats let the government spread its version of events to
everyone at once. And a few special effects to enhance the image of the
King, Emperor, or Prophet won't hurt.

Oh yeah, GPS is easily included in the sort of satellites used for the
phone system. And having a "locator" in each phone isn't a bad idea.
*Especially* for military and civil government use. Surveying becomes a
lot simpler. Which will please the tax collectors.

"Lord Shukash? My instruments indicate that your boundary markers are
*here*." (points to map) "And according my calculations, that makes
your estates cover 20,000 ri. Yet the old tax records show them as only
10,000 ri? Ah, well, the old maps *were* in error at times. Just be
sure to remit taxes for the full *20* thousand ri of land next year."

(Obviously, it's been explained to the government that there are likely
so many errors that there's no point in assessing penalties for the
"missing" taxes. And that not giving them a full year to collect taxes
based on the *new* survey might cause some problems as well.)

What's it worth to a military commander to *know* where he is. And have
accurate maps (another profit center for anybody with an old Scout
ship, or any other ship with appropriate surveying equipment added).

Oh yeah, I'm willing to bet that as long as the "phones" are government
owned, the location info is likely to be two way. That is, the phone
will show where the caller is. 

"General, why are you 30 miles *behind* the front?"

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 16:00:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Book Name (was Disaster Response (was Triage))

In mail you write:

> The book was called _Space Prison_. The passengers were deliberately marooned
> by a race that was almost at war with Earth - the passenger ship was intended
> as a colony ship, to set up a safe colony in case Earth lost the coming
> war. The colony ship got caught, and marooned on a very tough world.

There's an old James White novel that has aliens using a habitable, but
uncolonized planet as a POW camp. They've got satellites keeping an eye
on things, and they are programmed to fire on things such as large
concentrations of metal (to prevent the humans from trying to build
weapons). 

They basicly take prisoners that aren't too injured and land a small
ship and point a gun at the prisoners and tell them to march off the
ramp and onto the ground. They then pull in the ramp and take off.

The prisoners have managed to determine some things, like what the
"limits" on the satellites are. Picture people taking turns adding one
more bit of scrap metal to a pile to see when it gets zapped. Keep in
mind that the person who adds the last bit of metal is liable to get
caught in the "zap".

It'd make an interesting scenario for an adventure. "All" you have to
do is figure out how to escape. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 16:08:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Superluminal Mesons

In mail you write:

>>>>> (begin quoted material)
> I'm pretty sure that one of the key factors is that the duration of
> the
> jump *can't* be the same in both frames. So, for example, they'd say
> your jump only took 3 days, and you'd say that *their* jump only took
> 3
> days. 
>
> If jump duration *is* "frame invariant", then that gives an absolute
> reference frame and relativity is out the window anyway. 
>
> - -- 
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>>>>> (end quoted material)
> My impression of what Marc has said on the subject of Jump is that time
> in Jump space (whatever that is) suggests that Jump is indeed frame
> invariant, or at least not very sensitive to relativity effects.
> Discussing this with a co-worker suggests the following:  The
> variability in the time that a Jump lasts, and the other side effects
> sometimes encountered may be enough to account for relativity effects
> once they are worked over by Jump Space.  This may suggest that if one
> initiates a Jump at a relativistic speed, one could expect that the time
> spent in Jump will be towards the lower end of the possible Jump
> time-frames.  On the other hand, Marc has often indicated that Jump is
> normally undertaken while the ship is at "rest" or at least at very low
> speed (I have always assumed that this rest or low speed is relative to
> the planetary body the ship is leaving).  One could easily assume that
> there is a REASON for this practice, and that this might suggest
> mis-Jumps may be more common if one enters Jump while travelling at
> relativistic speeds.

Ah! but that's the whole point. *All* velocities are measured relative
to something else. And relativity says that *all* frames (ie objects
moving at different *constant* velocities relative to you) are equally
valid. 

So *all* jumps are at high fractions of C if your velocity reference is
a distant galaxy, or a close in object that's moving really fast. 

Thus that *can't* affect jump, because your velocity when entering jump
is a purely *arbitrary* figure. You get different answers depending on
what your reference frame is. 

So we are back to one of two possibilities. A jump *always*
takes a week (plus or minus the normal variation), regardless of what
your velocity is relative to whatever. Ie, a week "subjective" time.
This is reasonable, because other things like oscillations of atoms
also take the same time, regardless of frame.

Or it takes a week in the reference frame of the local stellar motion.
This one screws royally with relativity. It either requires defining a
special frame (ie a "frame" where the laws of physics are "right" as
opposed to all the others where they vary according to how fast you are
moving relative to the special frame) *or* it requires allowing
simultaneity at a distance. Another relativistic no-no. 


So the setup for a time paradox might be having A & B one parsec apart,
moving at "normal" velocity. You jump from A to B and arrive one week
later. Meanwhile, X is passing B at about 86% of c (tau of .5, gamma of
2). You radio him a message just as he passes by, and he jumps for A as
soon as he receives the message. 

In *his* frame, A&B are only half a parsec apart. It's still a Jump 1.
He gets there a week later *his* time. Which according to you is *3.5*
days later. BTW, he saw *your* jump as being over half a parsec and
only taking 3.5 days. 

The only point that both you and X agree upon is that when and where
the message passed between you. I'm *not* going to try calculating when
he saw you leave A or When you saw him arrive there. But I'm fairly
sure that if done properly, it'll wind up with him arriving before you
left. If not, play with the velocity. Sooner or later you'll hit the
right range. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:34:41 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Disaster Response

>It's said that in a crisis situation, you react based on your
>training- -- so it's good to have gotten some training.  
>For that reason, I'd expect military people currently in service
>to get their act together pretty quickly, and I'd expect members
>of the elite forces to be the fastest of these.

<snip>

>Civilian emergency services types -- like police, fire, EMT --
>should also get some kind of bonus for responding quickly in an
>emergency.

I have about a hundred people and a range of occupations and
ages, including elderly, teenagers, and children.  There are
maybe half a dozen that might qualify on the basis of careers and
skills for any kind of emergency response training bonus.  I've
been paying special attention to the three or four midranking
military officers, but there may be someone from planetary
security aboard: I'd neglected that possibility.

>Age is a factor that cuts across all backgrounds. 

<snip>

I'll probably make age above 60 or below 30 a negative DM, then:
I'd already discounted the teenagers and children.

>Race/species is another concern. 

<snip>

No aliens on this one...all humaniti, of mixed Solomani-Vilani
heritage.  My Traveller materials don't have enough info on the
other major races for me to work them in effectively.
  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:34:45 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Disaster Response

>    What probable effects and responses am I overlooking?

>One is that _several_ people will try to take charge and start
>giving contradictory orders. What if they both make their
>leadership rolls? Who gets obeyed?

>You'll also have those who refuse to follow orders given.

>You'll also have to have someone who needs to be slapped into
>submission, it's in the Disater Movie rules. ;-)

Already being considered. "Establishing leadership" of a given
person is at least a difficult leadership task if you aren't
already a recognized authority, and it gets harder if that person
has leadership ability himself.  If you haven't established
leadership, lotsa luck getting anyone to pay attention to your
wishes (orders, suggestions, whatever).  Keeping a leadership
role once you have it is probably an average task, but in an
uncertain and rapidly changing situation like this one, lots of
checks will be called for.  Loyalty or willingness to follow is a
matter of degree, and should be affected by the leader's overall
success at leadership tasks among other things.  Dominance games,
disobedience, competition, and politicking are all part of the
process. Deciding who is going to take charge of this group is
going to be somewhat Darwinian.

>Another tack is to read some true-life accounts of disaster
>survival.

True-life disasters involving a hundred or so people in
reasonably hospitable but otherwise isolated wilderness areas
are a bit thin on the ground, unfortunately. There was an airline
crash in the Andes some 25-30 years ago that provides the closest
recent parallel I can think of, except I'm putting the ship down
in more hospitable territory. The chances of there being a rescue
are not very good.
  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:34:47 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Triage

>Medical triage has been well addressed in several posts, but I
>would like to give my Cr0.02 on legal issues in a crash
>situation. 

<snippage>

Thanks for the thought, but legal issues will not probably not be
a major concern.  After two major misjumps, the ship is no longer
even in the same sector it left from and is somewhere outside
Imperial space, probably on the trailing rim. Imperial
authorities will record the ship as missing and presumed lost. 
After the usual searches in the vicinity of its last known
destination turn up empty, it will declare the colonists legally
dead and add this to the "unsolved ship disappearances" file.
The measures you suggest will probably become objects of
contention between the "plan for rescue" versus "plan to stay
permanently" factions among the passengers.
  

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #746
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 16 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 747



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Triage
Re: Disaster Response
[ship] Experimental Scout
Re: Far ports and security
Re: The Uplift Question
Re: Disaster Response
Re: Meiji Restoration
re Hydrogen Explosion
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #742
Re:Triage
Traveller stuff?
re: G:T Ship Details - A Request
Re: Express Boat Routes
Re: The Uplift Question
RE: LASH Operations
Re : Hydrogen Explosion
Re: The Uplift Question
Re: The Uplift Question
re: G:T Ship Details - A Request
Re: Hydrogen Blast radius
Re: Triage
Re: Disaster Response

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:34:35 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Triage

   Charles Hensley sent me excerpts from Robert O'Connor's
medical rules and saved me the trouble of looking them up in my
TML archives. I'll use them: thanks to both.
  Could Robert clarify a couple of things? From the blunt trauma
category of injuries, I'm assuming that those with "superficial"
injuries are in pain but can still function (average vs.
endurance to respond to other stimuli, harder with multiple
injuries or perhaps based on wound points);  those with "Minor" injuries
are incapacitated (severe pain) until treated but still conscious
(Staggering vs. endurance to do anything but respond to treatment); 
"Minor" head injuries are treated as major injuries for unconsciousness/
altered consciousness purposes and require an immediate check; and the
catastrophe check includes a check for consciousness; If a consciousness
check fails, treat as an injury to Intelligence (Subtract 2D-1 points: 0 is
full unconsciousness). Collisions and crashes often create multiple
injuries, so I'm making the number of important injuries equal to the
number of characteristics affected.
   Are these interpretations reasonable?
  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:34:38 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Disaster Response

>In your scenario, detail are going to be modified. If it's
>practical to send a party for help and have everybody else stay
>with the ship, then your first goal after triage is to get the
>folks with the required wilderness skills in shape for the trip.
>Plus enough folks in condition to take care of the folks who
>stay with the ship.

The ship's bridge crew are the only ones that might have known
where within three dozen parsecs they are, and that's only if the
astrogator managed to get a proper fix after emerging from the
last misjump. No one aboard knows where or even if there are any
settlements on the planet. The ship's medical supplies will be
exhausted PDQ, because the casualty list will show that 80% of
the passengers and crew have at least superficial injuries. 
Unless a radiation, chemical, or fire hazard develops, the ship
will do for temporary shelter and answer a pressing immediate
survival problem.
  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 22:19:38 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: [ship] Experimental Scout

Tell me what you think. Created with High Guard.

Interstellar Ship Star Explorer


Explorer Experimental Scout Ship (Type SZ)
The first interstellar ship created on Eide, the 250 ton Star Explorer was
sent to the nearby system of Amho to gather information. The Explorer crew
complement consists of a Pilot, Navigator, Engineer, and Medic, with 2
Gunners, and Computer/Sensors Operator making the full crew complement. The
ship has two turrets with 2 Beam Lasers, and 1 Sandcaster each. There are 4
staterooms, fuel scoops, and a fuel purification plant. The ship can
actually be deployed as a 200 ton small attack vessel, but generally the 50
ton sensor module is added for heightened information appraisal. The sensor
module is the only reason for the state of the art computer system. Other
states have believed this ship to be essentially an espionage device, and
were quite surprised when it simply disappeared on 1043/162.

Based on IN Form 3

Ship's Data

1) Date of preparation: 1043/162 (6/10/99)
2) Ship Name: Star Explorer
3) Class: Star Explorer
4) Tech Level: 9
5) Laid Down: 1041/150
6) First Flight: 1043/162

Statistics

7) Ship Type: SZ
8) Tonnage: 250 tons
9) Configuration: 4 (close structure)
10) Jump: 1
11) Acceleration: 4
12) Power Plant: 8
13a) Computer Model: 3
13b) Fiber Optic Backup: No
14) Crew: 4 - 8

Weaponry

15) Hull Strength: 3
16) Sand: 1
17) Meson Screen: 0
18) Nuclear Dampers: 0
19) Force Field: 0
20) Repulsors: 0
21) Lasers: 3
22) Energy Weapons: 0
23) Particle Weapons: 0
24) Meson Gun: 0
25a) Missiles: 0
25b) Magazine: No

Additional Data

26) Fighter Screen: No
27) Ship's Vehicles: No
28) Ship's Troops: No
29a) Fuel Tankage: 36 tons
29b) Maximum Jumps: Jump-1
29c) Unrefined Fuel?: Yes
30) Intended Ships Purpose: Based on the ships used to explore the outer
system of Eideann, the Explorer is the first interstellar exploration vehicle.

USP:  SZ - 2414838 - 310000 - 30000 - 0





- -- 
"Glorious, stirring sight!", murmured Toad, never offering to move. "The
poetry of motion! The real way to travel! The only way to travel! Here to-day
- -- in the next week to-morrow!"   -- Robert Grahame, The Wind in the Willows
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 23:19:57 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Far ports and security

In a message dated 6/15/99 6:43:28 PM US Eastern Standard Time, 
John.Buston@tesco.net writes:

> Great idea. It works well enough for a main world in the hab zone for any 
> star
>  above size K0 (using First In figures). And for a small M or K star a far 
> port
>  in an unmasked orbit isn't that far in any case.  The trojans of a world 
in 
> the
>  hab zone of a large A0 star are quite some way however - worst case could 
be 
> 10
>  AU.
>  

Be aware that there's an erratum affecting computation of the 100D radius
in First In.  The stellar-data tables say "radius" when they actually mean
"diameter," and as a result the 100D radius is actually half what the book
says it is.  So the masking for small stars is likely to be a bit more 
favorable
than you might think, if you're using the book as is.

I'm working on gathering together all the places where this mistake crept
in, and will forward the result to the errata coordinator ASAP.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 23:30:35 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

At 03:09 PM 6/15/99 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>I expect that most of the satellite networks are placed by folks for
>*free*, because they plan to make their profits selling the phones and
>receivers. Even worlds with class E or X ports could have a satellite
>network. The corporation that owned the satellites would just have
>ships visit every so often (6 months? a year?) to check the satellites,
>and see if the folks at the trading post needed more stock or parts for
>repairing damaged ground units. 

Cell phone companies not only put up cell towers for free (and offer free
phones), but they are willing to fight for the right to put up towers. 
I am not trying to get political, only to point out that current economic
practices show that this is true. Current laws (in NY at least) mandate
that areas w/o cell phone coverage get towers put up so you can dial 911
from anywhere. The cell phone companies are falling over each other to
find good sites in my area.

- -- 
"Glorious, stirring sight!", murmured Toad, never offering to move. "The
poetry of motion! The real way to travel! The only way to travel! Here to-day
- -- in the next week to-morrow!"   -- Robert Grahame, The Wind in the Willows
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 22:22:21 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Disaster Response

>> A long, LONG time ago, I read a SF novel about a bunch of people on a
>> starship liner who were marooned on an inhospitable planet. The first
>
>I think that's Icerigger.  I've never read it, but my memory of the
>cover painting makes me think that that's the story.

Actually, Icerigger deals with three people who wind up being marooned
on an ice-covered world on which live an intelligent, but low-tech,
species. (There are islands in the ocean of ice...) The book deals with
their attempts to first make friends with the natives, then soliciting
their aid in getting themselves back to "civilization" (an outpost that
the humans have on the other side of the planet). Not quite what we're
looking for...

(But it would make a suitable source for a Traveller scenario, providing
none of the players are familiar with the novel or its two sequels...)


     Glenn St-Germain § Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com § http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:43:21 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Meiji Restoration

>From: Jim Moss <jkmoss@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Meiji Restoration
>
>Emperor Mutsuhito (great-grandfather of the current Emperor) declared the 
>Meiji Restoration in 1868.
...
>p.s. no, I couldn't find an ObTrav to go in here...ideas?

  Maybe - I have to wonder if the Tokugawa era might not be somewhat idealized
in Vilani critiques of what passes for Solomani civilization?

  Imagine what Vilani conservatives are like? :)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 21:43:47 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re Hydrogen Explosion

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: re Hydrogen Explosion
...
>NB is it likely a ship would store O2 reserves in liquid form? ;-)

  You'd think so, in case of a leak? Plus, for a ship likely to see combat
you'd want to remove the atmosphere to reduce secondary effects.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 22:20:36 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #742

>From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #742
...
>that as well (I don't think so, though), the Uplift Question
>still stands - without importing material or finished goods, only
>knowledge, how do you go about doing a tech uplift as indicated?

  Deliver skills after/while modifying the structure of the society such that
there's an economic surplus available to invest in deploying those new skills?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1999 23:06:54 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re:Triage

It is quite possible for a society to base it's
triage concepts on principles quite different
from those we use today

The following sets of triage priorities might
be just as workable [assuming little things like
saving the most lives are less important than 
saving the "most important" lives], they simply
reflect different values.

1) High Passengers
2) Middle Passengers
3) Low Passengers

[Canonical descriptions clearly state that High Passengers
get better service than Middle Passengers.  Canon does not
then go on to say "except in emergencies when rules of 
triage similar to those of the twentieth century are used."
Therefore if you wish to be pedantic enough about it you
could claim that the above list is "cannon."]

or

1) Nobles
2) Crew
3) Passengers

[If your Traveller universe is somewhat on the 
pragmatic/ruthless side.]

or

1) Solomani
2) other humans
3) aliens

[On ships in the Solomani Confederation perhaps]

or

Hold on while we cast the Coyns and find out.

[On Droyne ships with too many Drones and not
enough Sports in their crews.]

or

Who has the highest Charisma and is therefore
worthy of priority treatment.

[On Vargr ships perhaps.]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 00:18:46 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Traveller stuff?

  For those people whose RPG budgets don't know the meaning of the word
fear (/pain, balance owing, etc.) this is also at www.titan-games.com
Note that some of these items may be available cheaper through private
sales, including the "Subsidized Trader" (at: www.downport.com  IIRC).

Game Designer's Workshop - Traveller
Alien Module 1 - Aslan (254) [$26, NM], [$24, VF]
Alien Module 8 - Darrians (264) [$35, NM]
Traveller Boxed Set (digest sized) (301) [$13, Box G-Contents F]
...
Book 6 - Scouts (337) [$15, M]
Suppl. 2 - Animal Encounters (305) [$12, NM], [$7, VF], [$4, Fa]
Suppl. 6 - 76 Patrons (315) [$7.5, F]
Adv. 2 - Research Station Gamma (311) [$10, F]
Adv. 7 - Broadsword (326) (tape on spine)[$17.5, VF]
Adv. 11 - Murder on Arcturus Station (339) [$13, M], [$11, VF]
Double Adv. 1 - Annic Nova/Shadows (312) [$13, M], [$12.5, NM], [$12, VF]
Double Adv. 2 - Mission on Mithril/Across the Bright Face (313) [$12, VF],
[$10.5, F]
Double Adv. 3 - Death Station/The Argon Gambit (321) [$15, M], [$14, NM],
[$12.5, VF]
Double Adv. 5 - Horde/The Chamax Plague (327) [$13, NM], [$12, VF]
Double Adv. 6 - Divine Intervention/Night of Conquest (331) [$13, M], [$12, NM]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 03:53:38 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: re: G:T Ship Details - A Request

 "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com> wrote:
>In looking over the basic G:T book, I noticed the
>external view of ship on pg. 66. I haven't seen
>this design before and was wondering if anyone has
>information as to what class ship it is, what
>political entity it's normally associated with,
>design details (tonnage, capabilities), original
>source, etc.

 While the artwork _might_ have appeared before, it was unattributed as it is 
in G:T. This is no known ship class. Based on the turret, this is either in 
the 100-400 ton range, or in the 1000-4000 ton range (with the turret 
becoming a bay weapon). Its lines suggest Vilani origins, though Aslan or 
Zhodani are also possibilities.

GC

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:45:58 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Express Boat Routes

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Does anyone out there know where I can find a map showing the Express Boat
Routes for the Magyar Sector?
I have scoured what references I have but so far zip!

Antony Farrell

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------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 01:49:46 -0700
From: "James W. Brewer" <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

On 06/15/99 11:16:59 you wrote:
>
>TL being what is generally available at a location 
>	or 
>TL of items produceable at/by that location....
>

The Solomani Rim is different from the rest of the Imperium in that while
the maximum tech level is lower the average tech level is higher as is the
population of most worlds.  In MTU I play this as the result of an active
Aid program which reduces the resources available for research into new
technology by the Old Earth Union and the Solomani Confederation.  Both of
these goverments were much more intervention minded than the Imperium.

Jim Brewer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:10:20 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: LASH Operations

This sounds something like a technique used in Britain on the railways, in
this a coach was detached from a train which was not stopping at a station.
The coach had its own brake and brake operator who would use this to bring
the coach to a halt at the station.

How about this. A starship emerges from jump having precalculated a vector
which means it would be coasting towards a world it does not intend to
visit. It drops its pod which would contain a small maneuver drive, some
fuel, and a pilot, robot, or computer (depending upon the union). The
starship then makes its next jump while the pod continues to the destination
using its onboard drive to achieve orbit as necessary.

Would something like this be viable?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:32:35 "GMT"
From: "robocon@ozemail.com.au" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Hydrogen Explosion

Dom wrote :-
>NB is it likely a ship would store O2 reserves in liquid form? ;-)

IMHO, No. Advanced life support systems (TL10+, say)
 should have no need to replenish oxygen (tight
 recycling in space, draw in replacement gas from the
 atmosphere at an appropriate planetfall).

A significant LH2 leak may cause oxygen and nitrogen to
liquefy out of the air though, which will make the
subsequent fire all the more furious because of the 
higher oxygen content of the adjacent atmosphere.

I think this phenomenon was alluded to by another poster.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

__________________________________________________________
Message sent by MyMail http://www.mymail.com.au/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:30:00 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

On 06/15/99 23:30:35 you wrote:
>
>At 03:09 PM 6/15/99 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>I expect that most of the satellite networks are placed by folks for
>>*free*, because they plan to make their profits selling the phones and
>>receivers. Even worlds with class E or X ports could have a satellite
>>network. The corporation that owned the satellites would just have
>>ships visit every so often (6 months? a year?) to check the satellites,
>>and see if the folks at the trading post needed more stock or parts for
>>repairing damaged ground units. 
>
>Cell phone companies not only put up cell towers for free (and offer free
>phones), but they are willing to fight for the right to put up towers. 
>I am not trying to get political, only to point out that current economic
>practices show that this is true. Current laws (in NY at least) mandate
>that areas w/o cell phone coverage get towers put up so you can dial 911
>from anywhere. The cell phone companies are falling over each other to
>find good sites in my area.
>
	All true, but you don't see nearly as much excitement to put up cell
towers all over sub-Saharan Africa or Central Asia.  Not enough people there
will be able to afford a cell phone to pay back the company's infrastructure 
investments. The fact that the company is willing to front the money is 
irrelevant. The availability of hi-tech imports doesn't change the fact that 
a low per-capita GDP means people have little money to spend on them.  
Communications may very well be where many societies choose to spend their 
limited resources, but those resources are limited, so we should be cautious 
about the enthusiasm of off-worlders to invest in them.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
co-author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:52:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

On 06/16/99 00:24:06 you wrote:
>
>> On 06/15/99 11:16:59 you wrote:
>> >
>> >TL being what is generally available at a location 
>> >	or 
>> >TL of items produceable at/by that location....
>> >
>> >I've always interpreted it in the first way too, Mark.  Far Trader 
disagrees, 
>> >if I read it right. 
>
>> I think you've characterized this fairly well.  Not only can Low TL 
worlds "just by the stuff" 
>> from their High TL neighbors, it is actually much _cheaper_ to do this 
than produce it 
>> themselves.  This is what puts Low TL worlds in such an economic 
development bind.
>> 
>Looking at my various copies of Traveller stuff (pre-GURPS), 
>- Megatraveller specifically says that the TL is the tech level generally 
>available (as do WBH and Grand Census).
>- Book 3 says it's the "general quality and capability of local industry" 
and 
>indicates the type of goods "in general use".
>So, pre-GURPS, it looks like imported technology is very much not 
pervasive. 
>And that is the way most people I know have been playing the game.

	Post-GURPS, imported technology is not pervasive either.  The goods 
both "generally available" and "in general use" will be of local 
manufacture. Imported goods will show up in critical uses such as: 
communications, medical, & military goods.

>> 	This is almost the case.  Anyone on a trade route can either place an 
order or simply buy 
>> from a business that has already imported the good.  It's hard to imagine 
why this wouldn't be 
>> the case unless there's a chronic shortage of shipping capacity.  The 
biggest barrier is not 
>> difficulty, but poverty.  Take another look at the per-capita income of a 
Low TL world.  They 
>> simply don't have the money to import high-tech equipment, which means 
they'll have to mostly 
>> make do with locally made goods.
>> 	Furthermore, there's no reason the imported tech has to be pervasive.  
Think about Africa 
>> or Central Asia.  They have imported trucks, radios, TVs, and even some 
computers.  But there 
>> are still plenty of people living in the traditional fashion with very 
few modern trappings. Low 
>> TL worlds will likely be the same.
>> 
>There are several barriers besides poverty:
>- no repair infrastructure/skills/spare parts, except imported ones
>- up to TL4, poor distribution networks; up to TL7/8, global distribution 
is slower than interstellar distribution.
>- no enabling infrastructure (why buy a phone if there's no network, or a 
TV if there are no broadcasters, or no energy supply grid, or a car if 
there's no refined fuels)
>- poverty and low population concentrations -> no incentive to invest in 
supporting infrastructure (why build and supply a global chain of WalMarts 
to service a global population of say, 5000, or even 500,000).

	Poverty means that the market is not big enough to make a particular 
high-tech business profitable.  All of the above reasons are just more ways 
of saying the same thing.  Without low incomes, they can all be fixed.

>- unlike today's surface shipping, the cost of moving goods does not 
decline rapidly as volume increases: though there is some saving on hull 
construction, propellant costs are directly related to displacement. 
Therefore less of a significant advantage in
> shipping in bulk. 

	In GT at least, large freighters can carry freight for half the cost 
of a Beowulf or Empress Marava.

>All these factors taken into consideration:
>- on low TL worlds, imported technology concentrates at the starport(s) 
with very little or slow leakage to other centres
>- using the same assumptions as in Far Trader (and eg Merchant Prince), 
high TL=high value, so wealth concentrates round the starport also
>- mass shipping concentrates on low risk, low fluctuation items (typically 
food and raw materials - in general it will be pretty easy to determine the 
native ability to supply, the ability of competing/surrounding worlds to 
supply and demand will be fairl
>y constant, so pricing is alot easier).

	Certainly food and raw materials are shipped in Traveller, and FT 
takes them into accout, but there's good reason to believe they don't 
account for the majority of cargo by *value*.  Simply put, shipping goods to 
another star system is relatively expensive so it makes sense to ship the 
most value-dense items first.  As for price fluctuations, commodity raw 
materials have much greater price swings than finished manufactured goods.  
Just follow the commodity price figures in the business section of your 
newspaper or on the web.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
co-author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:01:02 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: re: G:T Ship Details - A Request

SD Mooney posted:
>
> "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com> wrote:
>>In looking over the basic G:T book, I noticed the
>>external view of ship on pg. 66. I haven't seen
>>this design before and was wondering if anyone has
>>information as to what class ship it is, what
>>political entity it's normally associated with,
>>design details (tonnage, capabilities), original
>>source, etc.
>
>Looks like a stylised Dragon SDB with curves to me....

Thanks, Dom. It struck me the same way.

If there's no official stats on the ship, I think I'll
develop some. The scan came out beautifully
on my PC and I hate to waste a decent external
view.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:35:03 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Blast radius

Daniel Phelps writes:
"I think that what is being described is called a BLVE, 
a boiling liquid vapor explosion, are there any firemen, 
fire inspectors  or OSHA inspectors out there on the list 
who can give a really cogent account of the effect?"

	It's been a while since I covered this stuff, but 
	100 yards will probably not be enough if it acts
	like a BLVE.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:45:23 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Triage

Thad Coons writes:
"Thanks for the thought, but legal issues will not probably 
not be a major concern.  After two major misjumps, the ship 
is no longer even in the same sector it left from and is 
somewhere outside Imperial space, probably on the trailing 
rim. Imperial authorities will record the ship as missing 
and presumed lost."
<snippage>

	The legal issues may still influence the crew's 
	actions. I can easily imagine that they are trained to
	follow a protocol that includes things like CYA 
	measures. The fact that these measures are pointless
	may be missed or even ignored to avoid confusing the
	protocol.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:50:09 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Disaster Response

Thad Coons writes:
<snipped>
"If you haven't established leadership, lotsa luck getting 
anyone to pay attention to your wishes (orders, suggestions, 
whatever)."
<snipped>

	Leadership may also be exercised from the background.
	The established or recognized leader may be 'lead' by
	an 'advisor', perhaps someone with good leadership
	and/or emergency skills. A wise person might prefer 
	this tactic to openly disputing the heirarchy.

Peez

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #747
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 16 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 748



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Size of Enterprise
Magyar sector...
Re : Hydrogen Explosion
Scan request
re: G:T Ship Details - A Request
Traveller pictures
Re: Superluminal Mesons
Re: Superluminal Mesons
Re: Scan request
Re: [SSDS Questions] Experimental Scout
Re: [SSDS Questions] Experimental Scout
Re: [SSDS Questions] Experimental Scout
Re: Scan request
Re: Scan request
Re: Scan request
Re: The Uplift Question 
"First we kill the lawyers!" (was Re: New Site: World Maps)
Re: Far ports and security
Re: Hydrogen Blast radius
Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser
First In comments (was Re: Far ports and security)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:57:28 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Size of Enterprise

>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
>> Almost forgot.  The lanes will be approx. 14 1.5m squares long, 1 square
>> wide.  This is lane and target only, and does not include the scoring
>> table, which should be built as a crewstation.
>
>I would recommend using a bridge crewstation, in order to give the other
>bowlers a place to sit while waiting for their turns....
>
>>
>> Sorry for the omission, hope no one was inconvenienced.  :)
>

Damn now I have to start over.

Oh, and in a pinch the crew can run the "anti-hijack" software from the
bowling alley.  Wait, that means I have to add airtight bulkheads around
it.  Wouldn't want the crew to get gassed, burned, and frozen along with
others (the anti-hijack measures my players use tend to be a bit extreme).

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 9:59:05 CDT
From: Don McKinney <dmckinne@itds.com>
Subject: Magyar sector...

> Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:45:58 +0800
> From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
> Subject: Re: Express Boat Routes
> 
> Does anyone out there know where I can find a map showing the Express Boat
> Routes for the Magyar Sector?
> I have scoured what references I have but so far zip!
> 
> Antony Farrell

The following information is from my "published sector information"
document:

Magyar		sector map in Atlas of the Imperium (CT)
		Blackjack (N) subsector, xboat map and library data
			in Traveller's Digest #14 (CT/RT)
		(xboat map incorrect, ignores Imperial/Solomani
			border)

- --
========================================================================
= Donald E. McKinney, Senior ConfigMgt Engineer      dmckinne@itds.com =
= International Telecommunications Data Systems         (217) 239-8365 =
= 2109 Fox Drive, Champaign, IL                         (217) 351-8250 =
= Winter War 27 Convention Chairman, Champaign, IL, February 4-6, 2000 =
= winterwar@prairienet.org        http://www.prairienet.org/winterwar/ = 
========================================================================

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:01:07 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re : Hydrogen Explosion

Robert O'Connor writes:
"Dom wrote :-
>NB is it likely a ship would store O2 reserves in liquid 
form? ;-)

IMHO, No. Advanced life support systems (TL10+, say)
 should have no need to replenish oxygen (tight
 recycling in space, draw in replacement gas from the
 atmosphere at an appropriate planetfall)."
<snipped>

	I agree that hi-tech life support should be able
	to effective recycle O2 for long periods, but I'd
	imagine that some extra for emergencies would be 
	stored away (as O2, LO2, or possibly even H20).

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 08:13:29
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Scan request

If I'm not stepping on anyone's copyright toes, could someone with a
scanner and Supplement 9 send me a scanned picture of the Plankwell class
Dreadnaught?

.gif or .jpg, makes no difference to me.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:19:12 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: re: G:T Ship Details - A Request

GypsyComet@aol.com replied:
>
> "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com> wrote:
>>In looking over the basic G:T book, I noticed the
>>external view of ship on pg. 66. I haven't seen
>>this design before and was wondering if anyone has
>>information as to what class ship it is, what
>>political entity it's normally associated with,
>>design details (tonnage, capabilities), original
>>source, etc.
>
> While the artwork _might_ have appeared before, it was unattributed as it
is 
>in G:T. This is no known ship class. Based on the turret, this is either in

>the 100-400 ton range, or in the 1000-4000 ton range (with the turret 
>becoming a bay weapon). Its lines suggest Vilani origins, though Aslan or 
>Zhodani are also possibilities.

I believe the artwork was originally in one of the MT books. I was
thinking about 400 dtons.

I thought perhaps to use it as a Darrian merchant designed for
them by an Imperial ship architect. The dorsal-mounted small craft
could be used as a gig. It's about the right size, I think.

Thanks for the thoughts, GC.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 09:35:17 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Traveller pictures

I have updated the pictures page on my Web site.  The direct link is:
http://pages.prodigy.com/fjsh94a/pictures.htm 

Now back to the Virus infested female Aslan pirates etc. etc. etc.
thread!
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 10:10:02 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Superluminal Mesons

>>>> (begin quoted material)
<snip>
So we are back to one of two possibilities. A jump *always*
takes a week (plus or minus the normal variation), regardless of what
your velocity is relative to whatever. Ie, a week "subjective" time.
This is reasonable, because other things like oscillations of atoms
also take the same time, regardless of frame.

Or it takes a week in the reference frame of the local stellar motion.
This one screws royally with relativity. It either requires defining a
special frame (ie a "frame" where the laws of physics are "right" as
opposed to all the others where they vary according to how fast you
are
moving relative to the special frame) *or* it requires allowing
simultaneity at a distance. Another relativistic no-no. 
<snip>

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>>>> (end quoted material)
The method I would choose to deal with Jump is the "special frame of
reference" method of FTL travel, as explained at:
http://www.physics.purdue.edu/~hinson/ftl/html/FTL_part4.html 
I think this works best with what I have read from Marc on the subject
of Jump.  Essentially, since Jump is the only method of mechanical FTL
travel available in the "standard" Traveller universe.  This does leave
psionic teleportation unfortunately.  So either teleportation and Jump
use different aspects of Jumpspace, and eventually people will figure
out how to do "instantaneous" Jumps, or teleportation is quite a
different phenomenon, and possibly subject to relativity/paradox
problems or to a different "special frame of reference."  I guess that
again my preferece would be for all psionics to be subject to a "special
frame of reference" but a different one from the Jumpspace SFOR.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:34:37 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Superluminal Mesons

>travel available in the "standard" Traveller universe.  This does leave
>psionic teleportation unfortunately.


Why not just limit psionic teleportation to lightspeed? IIRC, the ranges
involved are not significant enough to justify FTL travel.

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:18:40 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Scan request

I scanned it but the bloody thing won't export from HP's Paperport
software..then I'd have to save to Zip Disk to transfer to my Dell
computer so I can email it to you..:|

Where is Ham Salad when we need him?  :)
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:45:16 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: [SSDS Questions] Experimental Scout

At 10:19 PM 6/15/99 -0400, I wrote:
>Tell me what you think. Created with High Guard.
>
>Interstellar Ship Star Explorer
>

You know, I tried making this using SSDS (because they have cooler sensor
rules)
and things are very different in that world... No lasers at TL9? Fusion
maneuver drives create power, so I don't need a power plant? I need a 15
crew members for this - 3 Eng-Drives, 4 Electronics, 2 Maneuvering,
4 Gunnery, and 2 Command?

Some questions are: 
It looks like I need 1 basic life support unit and 15 Crew G-Tanks.
I just wanted 2 Heavy Turrets with 2 missiles ea. Why do I need 4 Gunners?
I also would need at least one stateroom (for the captain), and 14 bunks. Is
this normal?

The ship needs to spend a week exploring the system - determine planets,
check again, maneuver towards promising places, do close surveys of promising
planets, and refuel at a local gas giant (of course, the Fusion drives use
Hydrogen, right?) jump out, and be recovered by the scientists who built the
thing (If this whole jump drive thing really works, and there are no bugs in
the navigation software -- volunteers anyone?)

So the question is: How much maneuver fuel would you think is necessary? 
Remember that we have never investigated another solar system before. I was
thinking 2 weeks of maneuver, and I end up with a minimum 400 ton hull. If I
make it 1 week of maneuver, I can get away with the 200 ton hull, only 15 
crew members, and cut a few other corners.

In other words, I think this is 1 week of constant 4G acceleration, more
than I would need (which is what I want). Is this correct?

This ship is based on the earlier (TL8) Explorer class ship, used to 
explore the outer solar system, hence the high G rating. Also there are
reasons to be paranoid on this first jump, and think defense might be
important.

I'm going to make:
http://www.datatone.com/~robb/Traveller/StarExplorer.html available in a few
minutes.
- -- 
"Glorious, stirring sight!", murmured Toad, never offering to move. "The
poetry of motion! The real way to travel! The only way to travel! Here to-day
- -- in the next week to-morrow!"   -- Robert Grahame, The Wind in the Willows
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 13:58:52 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: [SSDS Questions] Experimental Scout

At 01:45 PM 6/16/99 -0400, I wrote:
>I'm going to make:
>http://www.datatone.com/~robb/Traveller/StarExplorer.html available in a few
>minutes.

I am a moron. Lowercase 't'.
http://www.datatone.com/~robb/traveller/StarExplorer.html
- -- 
"Glorious, stirring sight!", murmured Toad, never offering to move. "The
poetry of motion! The real way to travel! The only way to travel! Here to-day
- -- in the next week to-morrow!"   -- Robert Grahame, The Wind in the Willows
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:18:21 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: [SSDS Questions] Experimental Scout

Rob Brady wrote:
> 
> At 10:19 PM 6/15/99 -0400, I wrote:
> >Tell me what you think. Created with High Guard.
> >
> >Interstellar Ship Star Explorer
> >
> 
> You know, I tried making this using SSDS (because they have cooler sensor
> rules)
> and things are very different in that world... No lasers at TL9? Fusion
> maneuver drives create power, so I don't need a power plant? 

Common error...you need enough powerplant to run CG, LS and anything
you'll want to keep going during jump, or during planetary landings
(running a fusion drive is kinda nasty in an atmosphere, or in a jump
bubble).

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:43:45
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Scan request

At 01:18 PM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I scanned it but the bloody thing won't export from HP's Paperport
>software..then I'd have to save to Zip Disk to transfer to my Dell
>computer so I can email it to you..:|

Matthew Bond just sent me a very nice copy, so everyone else can forgt
about it.

Thanks to all who offered or looked.  The Plankwell page will be up as soon
as Andy gets the new spreadsheet finished.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 11:44:51
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Scan request

At 01:18 PM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>I scanned it but the bloody thing won't export from HP's Paperport
>software..then I'd have to save to Zip Disk to transfer to my Dell
>computer so I can email it to you..:|

I just recieved a copy, so don't stress about it.

Thanks to everyone who offered to look.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 19:49:35 +0100
From: "Peter L.S. Trevor" <ptrevor.trisen@zetnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Scan request

Doug Berry wrote:
> could someone with a scanner and Supplement 9 send me a scanned
> picture of the Plankwell class Dreadnaught?

Check out my StuffOnline site which for  the  next  month  or  so
should be at ...

http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/trisen/sol/traveller/index.html

... and follow the links for the starships and then Plankwell.



Regards PLST
"Rome wasn't burned in a day."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:11:34 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question 

Jim:

> On 06/16/99 00:24:06 you wrote:
> >

<snip>
> 	Post-GURPS, imported technology is not pervasive either.  The goods 
> both "generally available" and "in general use" will be of local 
> manufacture. Imported goods will show up in critical uses such as: 
> communications, medical, & military goods.
> 
Communications and medical are two examples where you can see TL differences 
in *general use* today. On medical technology, there is a significant 
difference in the availability of technology between the US and Europe, even 
before going on to the differences between the West and the rest. That comes 
down to the relative proportions of GDP spent on medical technologies, but 
translates to the model of some worlds just not having the money.

On communications, we are shipping clockwork radios for parts of Africa 
because they have no infrastructure which allows them mains supply and/or a 
dependable supply of batteries.

On military items:
- - using the Pocket Empires/Naval Squadrons model (which you guys may disavow, 
I dunno), most worlds don't have the resources to support a standing army
- - under the Pax Imperia, they can't run one anyway. If they did need a 
standing army, and given the way that Imperial period warfare seems to work, 
they'd better build a local armaments infrastructure which can be sustained 
while the world is under blockade.
- - Imperial agencies & larger corporations will ship their own stuff rather 
than buy it locally
- - which leaves law enforcement, criminal use, private agencies and 
consumer/sports use. The last two are going to basically use something within 
their budget (a relatively small tech level leap if at all). Criminals are 
going to go for the best advantage they can (which is probably determined by 
the tech level of surrounding worlds, as well as the extent to which the local 
economy makes such investment worth their while), and law enforcement will try 
and match that. So in these cases you probably see somewhat higher tech.

<snip>
> >There are several barriers besides poverty:
> >- no repair infrastructure/skills/spare parts, except imported ones
> >- up to TL4, poor distribution networks; up to TL7/8, global distribution 
> is slower than interstellar distribution.
> >- no enabling infrastructure (why buy a phone if there's no network, or a 
> TV if there are no broadcasters, or no energy supply grid, or a car if 
> there's no refined fuels)
> >- poverty and low population concentrations -> no incentive to invest in 
> supporting infrastructure (why build and supply a global chain of WalMarts 
> to service a global population of say, 5000, or even 500,000).
> 
> Poverty means that the market is not big enough to make a particular 
> high-tech business profitable.  All of the above reasons are just more ways 
> of saying the same thing.  Without low incomes, they can all be fixed.

Hmmm ... actually its a question of potential market (pop * income) versus 
cost of sale. I guess if under FT income is actually an expression of monetary 
income, TL (which would include infrastructure) and population density then 
this is true, but it's stretching most people's understanding of the word 
poverty.

< snip >
> >All these factors taken into consideration:
> >- on low TL worlds, imported technology concentrates at the starport(s) 
> with very little or slow leakage to other centres
> >- using the same assumptions as in Far Trader (and eg Merchant Prince), 
> high TL=high value, so wealth concentrates round the starport also
> >- mass shipping concentrates on low risk, low fluctuation items (typically 
> food and raw materials - in general it will be pretty easy to determine the 
> native ability to supply, the ability of competing/surrounding worlds to 
> supply and demand will be fairl
> >y constant, so pricing is alot easier).
> 
> 	Certainly food and raw materials are shipped in Traveller, and FT 
> takes them into accout, but there's good reason to believe they don't 
> account for the majority of cargo by *value*.  Simply put, shipping goods to 
> another star system is relatively expensive so it makes sense to ship the 
> most value-dense items first.  As for price fluctuations, commodity raw 
> materials have much greater price swings than finished manufactured goods.  
> Just follow the commodity price figures in the business section of your 
> newspaper or on the web.
> 

I just checked the Guardian for the interstellar traded commodities page but they don't seem to print it on a Wednesday :-)

Commodity raw material price fluctuations on 20th century earth are a reflection of the market conditions and infrastructure that support them. The assumptions in the Imperium are drastically different:

- - 7 day communication and shipping time (communication time = shipping time)
- - many markets (ie systems) cannot support themselves in essentials. especially food. In which case there are going to be market conditions (either by price or subsidy) which ensure that these goods are shipped first (since if such conditions did not prevail the systems in question would die, pace Hard Times). Because demand is relatively fixed and local production are fixed, the variables are the price where I buy the products I'm going to sell (which is subject to similar variations to those we experience today) and the number of other people importing commodities to the target market. This is a very different position to the one we experience today.
- - the really big economies generate so much demand, and interstellar shipping is so relatively expensive, that large scale export becomes uneconomic. Most of production by the large industrial economies is probably for the domestic market.

What I'm stumbling towards is that the weakness and size of the smaller markets, and of local infrastructure, militates against large scale freight. On the other hand, there must be an economic system which allows for low value essential goods (essential being food, some medicine and life support) to be transferred on a large scale in order to support these worlds. 

Maybe it is like transatlantic airline economics where the plane is actually put into the air by the club and first class tickets and the coach class is just a way of recovering costs for the rest of the plane. Maybe large scale freight necessarily includes a large quantity of low-value essentials and a small quantity of high-value consumer/luxury items, which act as the main profit centre.

Alternatively, large scale freight brings essentials (food, life support) to the smaller markets and returns with raw materials bound eventually for the larger economies (which are so large that they rapidly deplete local supplies - problem though is it would be cheaper to mine insystem than trade across systems), and is maybe subsidised in some way. Non-mass demand items (everything else) is carried by small traders.

Alternative three - large scale freight is subsidised in some way, other items are carried by small traders.

Or some combination of the above. Ideas?

M

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 99 16:28:42 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: "First we kill the lawyers!" (was Re: New Site: World Maps)

Okay, I know I'm 10 days behind posting on this, but I'm 10 days
behind *reading* the TML too. ;->

On 06/06/99 at 01:19 PM,  Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> said:

>And here we have a perfect real-world example for copyright. IIRC,
>Steve Daniels and Eris are lawyers, so hopefully they can explain the
>legal position.

Whoa!  Steve might be an attorney, but Eris is not, Not, NOT!  Never
has been.  Never will be.  Not that there's anything *wrong* with
being a lawyer...<gd&r>

Eris,
    heretic yes, lawyer no

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:42:55 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: Far ports and security

>Be aware that there's an erratum affecting computation of the 100D radius
>in First In.  The stellar-data tables say "radius" when they actually mean
>"diameter," and as a result the 100D radius is actually half what the book
>says it is.  So the masking for small stars is likely to be a bit more 
>favorable than you might think, if you're using the book as is.

You know I have looked at that table about 50 times and had always read it as
diameter - I knew it was diameter from the G0/G5 numbers as I have done sums on
SOL before (i.e. G2 Sol D is just under .01 AU).

I had only today realised it actually said radius and was about to post for
clarification to the list.

BTW, I have randomly generated about 50 systems using First In, and it took me
46 attempts to get one Earthlike planet. Got a few rockballs, a few asteroid
belts, and a hostile world in the hab zone, but it is very difficult to get an
"earth-like" world.  It is very hard indeed to get one with an earth-like
temperature range.

(Aside: I have yet to get past step 17 of the process...)

I have some questions on the First In planet generation mechanics:

Is it really possible for a multiple star system containing a white dwarf to 
have habitable planets? Wouldn't the death of the star that led to the white
dwarf have sterilised any planets, and blown away their atmospheres? Wouldn't 
the dying star have lost mass and therefore the orbits would have changed, or
at least the forbidden orbits zone should be much larger (based on pre-white 
dwarf star type which must be bigger than the current primary)?

Since changing the way I generate systems, I am now getting "earth-like" planets
that are quite a bit warmer or cooler than earth.  Is there a good source of
terra-forming information - scientific or SF - that I can use to add colour to
change the temp of these worlds? Stuff the would be visible from space would be
nice e.g. orbiting mirrors to warm cities, generated cloud cover to change
albedo, regular crash landing of comets, as well as the bio-options).

When is the program available ? :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 16:58:47 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Blast radius

Tue, 15 Jun 1999 18:42:12 -0400, "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>

>>At first, there will be just a fire.  But as the hydrogen burns
>>out of the tank and oxygen mixes in, you will eventually get
>>to an explosive combination.  Then the tank will go up.  I don't
>>think it will be humungous explosion thought.  Being a 100 yards
>>away and behind something should do it.

>I think that what is being described is called a BLVE, a boiling liquid
>vapor explosion, are there any firemen, fire inspectors  or OSHA inspectors
>out there on the list who can give a really cogent account of the effect?

I wasn't envisaging anything so extreme.  If you take a can of
liquid hydrogen and light the hydrogen streaming out, it will be
content to burn "sort of" like a blow torch with the hydrogen
expansion preventing the oxygen from entering.  This will continue
as long as the liquid hydrogen exist in the tank.  (I'm no expert
on BLVE, but I would guess to get that you would have crack the
tank completely open and spill the liquid out, mixing it freely
with the air).  Once the liquid has boiled off, the burned hyrogen
will start being replaced by air.  At some point you are going to
have a can with hydrogen and air in an explosive mixture.  This is
decently, but no exceptionally, explosive.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 20:00:41 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser

No. I'm not lining up Paul Jaquays and William Keith in an arena in a battle
for supremacy. I *am* interested in the location of the elevator doors on
the Broadsword Class Mercenary Cruiser.

Jaquays draws the doors on the "inside" of the leg in his picture in
"Supplement 9: Fighting Ships." On the other hand, W.H. Keith draws them on
the "outside" of the leg in various pictures (including a good one in JTAS
#8 showing lots of mercs deploying from the vessel).

The deckplans in JTAS #8 don't seem to indicate whether the doors are on the
outside or the inside of the starboard and port legs. In the description in
JTAS there's no clue given either way...

Does anybody know which spot the doors actually *should* be?

(This isn't simply an anal question. I'm working on several different 3D
models, one of which is the Broadsword).

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
Looking for other Traveller players in your area?
Looking to run a PBEM game? Check out:
http://www.pil.net/~semo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:24:27 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: First In comments (was Re: Far ports and security)

In a message dated 6/16/99 5:43:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time, 
John.Buston@tesco.net writes:

>  BTW, I have randomly generated about 50 systems using First In, and it 
took 
> me
>  46 attempts to get one Earthlike planet. Got a few rockballs, a few 
asteroid
>  belts, and a hostile world in the hab zone, but it is very difficult to 
get 
> an
>  "earth-like" world.  It is very hard indeed to get one with an earth-like
>  temperature range.
>  
>  (Aside: I have yet to get past step 17 of the process...)

Yes, if you do everything at random it can be rather hard to get Earthlike
planets.  Just for starters, it's hard to get an Earthlike planet around any
star dimmer than about a K5 -- the best candidates near red-dwarf stars
tend to be too small and tide-locked to boot.  And there are so *many*
red dwarf stars. . .

There's a pretty good chance of getting at least one planet in the life
zone, but then it has to be big enough to hold a substantial atmosphere.
And then it has to be old enough for complex life forms to evolve.  The
odds do go down fast.  I suspect your record shows some bad luck,
but certainly you're not going to get a garden planet every time.

Whether it's clear in the text or not, I expect that folks who like the
feel of Classic Traveller (lots of garden planets, even around red-
dwarf stars) will want to proceed by fudging some of the die-rolls
and using some of the "Traveller Note" sections.  The rules as written
are realistic, but I won't come and harass anyone who seasons them
to taste :-).


>  I have some questions on the First In planet generation mechanics:
>  
>  Is it really possible for a multiple star system containing a white dwarf 
to 
> 
>  have habitable planets? Wouldn't the death of the star that led to the 
white
>  dwarf have sterilised any planets, and blown away their atmospheres? 
Wouldn'
> t 
>  the dying star have lost mass and therefore the orbits would have changed, 
> or
>  at least the forbidden orbits zone should be much larger (based on 
pre-white 
> 
>  dwarf star type which must be bigger than the current primary)?

Just having a white dwarf star in the system doesn't mean that all the
planets are going to be uninhabitable.  Remember that the formation of
a white-dwarf star isn't all that violent an event -- the star experiences
some mass loss, but no explosion of supernova magnitude.  It's more
like a very intense solar wind.  If the red giant star is far enough away,
a planet would probably experience nothing worse than some climatic
effects, maybe some intense ionization of the upper atmosphere.  All
of that would tend to stabilize once the companion star had settled
down.

The arrangement of forbidden zones in the book is a deliberate
simplification -- they're always from one-third the minimum distance
between the two stars to three times the maximum distance.  When
the two stars are of very different size this isn't completely accurate,
but the actual computation is fairly complex and I didn't want to inflict
it on people.  The difference in mass between the "living" star and
its white-dwarf remnant isn't really enough to make a significant
difference.


>  Since changing the way I generate systems, I am now getting "earth-like" 
> planets
>  that are quite a bit warmer or cooler than earth.  Is there a good source 
of
>  terra-forming information - scientific or SF - that I can use to add 
colour 
> to
>  change the temp of these worlds? Stuff the would be visible from space 
would 
> be
>  nice e.g. orbiting mirrors to warm cities, generated cloud cover to change
>  albedo, regular crash landing of comets, as well as the bio-options).

There's a lot of "slop" in the random generation of albedo, since there are
an awful lot of factors that can affect it.  Take the procedure given as
an indication of what values are most likely, but feel free to set them to
a value that gives you the result you want, and come up with a handwave
to explain it if it's far from the mean.  That's not a bad approach to take
to any part of the book, actually.

>  When is the program available ? :)

Beats me.  I could do it myself (I'm a fair hand with C or C++) but I just
don't have the time.  Of course, someone came up with a first draft
software package *during the playtest* (!) so I imagine it won't be too
long before some enterprising soul puts it together.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #748
**********************************

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Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 17 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 749



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

First In comments (was Re: Far ports and security)
Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser
Re: Far ports and security
Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser
Re: "First we kill the lawyers!" (was Re: New Site: World Maps)
Re: Disaster Response
Re: Disaster Response
Re: Express Boat Routes
Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser
Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser
Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser
Re: Scan request
Re: Hydrogen Blast radius
Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser
Jump Point Masking
Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser
Re: Disaster Response
Re: Scan request
Re: Hydrogen Blast radius
Re: The Uplift Question
Re: The Uplift Question
Re: Far ports and security

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:24:27 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: First In comments (was Re: Far ports and security)

In a message dated 6/16/99 5:43:17 PM US Eastern Standard Time, 
John.Buston@tesco.net writes:

>  BTW, I have randomly generated about 50 systems using First In, and it 
took 
> me
>  46 attempts to get one Earthlike planet. Got a few rockballs, a few 
asteroid
>  belts, and a hostile world in the hab zone, but it is very difficult to 
get 
> an
>  "earth-like" world.  It is very hard indeed to get one with an earth-like
>  temperature range.
>  
>  (Aside: I have yet to get past step 17 of the process...)

Yes, if you do everything at random it can be rather hard to get Earthlike
planets.  Just for starters, it's hard to get an Earthlike planet around any
star dimmer than about a K5 -- the best candidates near red-dwarf stars
tend to be too small and tide-locked to boot.  And there are so *many*
red dwarf stars. . .

There's a pretty good chance of getting at least one planet in the life
zone, but then it has to be big enough to hold a substantial atmosphere.
And then it has to be old enough for complex life forms to evolve.  The
odds do go down fast.  I suspect your record shows some bad luck,
but certainly you're not going to get a garden planet every time.

Whether it's clear in the text or not, I expect that folks who like the
feel of Classic Traveller (lots of garden planets, even around red-
dwarf stars) will want to proceed by fudging some of the die-rolls
and using some of the "Traveller Note" sections.  The rules as written
are realistic, but I won't come and harass anyone who seasons them
to taste :-).


>  I have some questions on the First In planet generation mechanics:
>  
>  Is it really possible for a multiple star system containing a white dwarf 
to 
> 
>  have habitable planets? Wouldn't the death of the star that led to the 
white
>  dwarf have sterilised any planets, and blown away their atmospheres? 
Wouldn'
> t 
>  the dying star have lost mass and therefore the orbits would have changed, 
> or
>  at least the forbidden orbits zone should be much larger (based on 
pre-white 
> 
>  dwarf star type which must be bigger than the current primary)?

Just having a white dwarf star in the system doesn't mean that all the
planets are going to be uninhabitable.  Remember that the formation of
a white-dwarf star isn't all that violent an event -- the star experiences
some mass loss, but no explosion of supernova magnitude.  It's more
like a very intense solar wind.  If the red giant star is far enough away,
a planet would probably experience nothing worse than some climatic
effects, maybe some intense ionization of the upper atmosphere.  All
of that would tend to stabilize once the companion star had settled
down.

The arrangement of forbidden zones in the book is a deliberate
simplification -- they're always from one-third the minimum distance
between the two stars to three times the maximum distance.  When
the two stars are of very different size this isn't completely accurate,
but the actual computation is fairly complex and I didn't want to inflict
it on people.  The difference in mass between the "living" star and
its white-dwarf remnant isn't really enough to make a significant
difference.


>  Since changing the way I generate systems, I am now getting "earth-like" 
> planets
>  that are quite a bit warmer or cooler than earth.  Is there a good source 
of
>  terra-forming information - scientific or SF - that I can use to add 
colour 
> to
>  change the temp of these worlds? Stuff the would be visible from space 
would 
> be
>  nice e.g. orbiting mirrors to warm cities, generated cloud cover to change
>  albedo, regular crash landing of comets, as well as the bio-options).

There's a lot of "slop" in the random generation of albedo, since there are
an awful lot of factors that can affect it.  Take the procedure given as
an indication of what values are most likely, but feel free to set them to
a value that gives you the result you want, and come up with a handwave
to explain it if it's far from the mean.  That's not a bad approach to take
to any part of the book, actually.

>  When is the program available ? :)

Beats me.  I could do it myself (I'm a fair hand with C or C++) but I just
don't have the time.  Of course, someone came up with a first draft
software package *during the playtest* (!) so I imagine it won't be too
long before some enterprising soul puts it together.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:27:44 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser

- ----------
> From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser
> Date: Wednesday, 16 June, 1999 8:00 PM
> 
> No. I'm not lining up Paul Jaquays and William Keith in an arena in a
battle
> for supremacy. I *am* interested in the location of the elevator doors on
> the Broadsword Class Mercenary Cruiser.
> 
[snip]
> Does anybody know which spot the doors actually *should* be?
> 
> (This isn't simply an anal question. I'm working on several different 3D
> models, one of which is the Broadsword).
> 

Why not both?  There are enough Broadswords around, built in enough
different shipyards that there could easily be variant designs with doors
in either place.  Pick whichever you prefer.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:16:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Far ports and security

>BTW, I have randomly generated about 50 systems using First In, and it took me
>46 attempts to get one Earthlike planet. Got a few rockballs, a few asteroid
>belts, and a hostile world in the hab zone, but it is very difficult to get an
>"earth-like" world.  It is very hard indeed to get one with an earth-like
>temperature range.

Book 6: Scouts was like that too.  I ended up setting the temperature and
calculating backwards to the albedo, and sometimes just changing the star
type when I couldn't get things working out.

Looks like Grandfather was busy, nudging all those worlds into just the
right place... :-)


>Is it really possible for a multiple star system containing a white dwarf to
>have habitable planets? Wouldn't the death of the star that led to the white
>dwarf have sterilised any planets, and blown away their atmospheres?

Probably.

>Wouldn't
>the dying star have lost mass and therefore the orbits would have changed, or
>at least the forbidden orbits zone should be much larger (based on pre-white
>dwarf star type which must be bigger than the current primary)?

Sounds like it to me. But then I'm not an astronomer.  Bruce?

>Since changing the way I generate systems, I am now getting "earth-like"
>planets
>that are quite a bit warmer or cooler than earth.  Is there a good source of
>terra-forming information - scientific or SF - that I can use to add colour to
>change the temp of these worlds? Stuff the would be visible from space
>would be
>nice e.g. orbiting mirrors to warm cities, generated cloud cover to change
>albedo, regular crash landing of comets, as well as the bio-options).

The vicarage worldbuilding site has the best collection of links I've seen.
Nasa has some stuff (but finding it on their site will be...fun).  IIRC
Gillett's worldbuilding book (referenced in GT:FI) also has a chapter on
terraforming.

>When is the program available ? :)

July. Beta testing will start next week or the week after. Contact me offlist.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:16:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser

>No. I'm not lining up Paul Jaquays and William Keith in an arena in a battle
>for supremacy. I *am* interested in the location of the elevator doors on
>the Broadsword Class Mercenary Cruiser.
>
>Jaquays draws the doors on the "inside" of the leg in his picture in
>"Supplement 9: Fighting Ships." On the other hand, W.H. Keith draws them on
>the "outside" of the leg in various pictures (including a good one in JTAS
>#8 showing lots of mercs deploying from the vessel).
>
>The deckplans in JTAS #8 don't seem to indicate whether the doors are on the
>outside or the inside of the starboard and port legs. In the description in
>JTAS there's no clue given either way...
>
>Does anybody know which spot the doors actually *should* be?
>
>(This isn't simply an anal question. I'm working on several different 3D
>models, one of which is the Broadsword).

My 3d models (the minis from Rafm) have doors on the outside. So if you're
taking a vote...

I'd got with the Keith drawings over Jaquays any day, but that's a personal
preference.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:16:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: "First we kill the lawyers!" (was Re: New Site: World Maps)

>Okay, I know I'm 10 days behind posting on this, but I'm 10 days
>behind *reading* the TML too. ;->
>
>On 06/06/99 at 01:19 PM,  Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> said:
>
>>And here we have a perfect real-world example for copyright. IIRC,
>>Steve Daniels and Eris are lawyers, so hopefully they can explain the
>>legal position.
>
>Whoa!  Steve might be an attorney, but Eris is not, Not, NOT!  Never
>has been.  Never will be.  Not that there's anything *wrong* with
>being a lawyer...<gd&r>
>
>Eris,
>    heretic yes, lawyer no

Hm. I've mixed up names again. Is there a lawyer named Roderick out there?
Articulate chap, lives in Montreal?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:19:28 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Disaster Response

>>Basically, anyone who has ever dealt with trauma situations is
>>going to get a bonus, whether it's simple lifeguard experience
>>or 8 years as a combat medic. Most of this is pretty obvious,
>>but there *are* going to be more than a few people whose
>>experiences are not accurately reflected by their skill sets.

I let the dice decide things like that: It's impossible to
account for everything.

>>There are several corporate and military
>>types aboard who will probably be more effective once they get
>>going, but so far they aren't the first ones on the ball, and
>>there is no guarantee that they will be cooperating at first.

>There's also no guarantee that they will be effective either.

I expect these to be effective because of their social status and
leadership skill, which in my interpretation is the ability to
lead people effectively. A lot of military and corporate types have the
high rank because of their ability to push paper and only think that makes
them leaders: I think I have a couple of those aboard. There is a noble,
too, but he doesn't impress me much either.

>>   Quite a few people have basic first-aid skill and there are
>>a couple with some degree of medical skill, but to direct an
>>organized triage effort, they will have to either apply
>>leadership skills themselves or get the cooperation of whoever
>>else is most effectively in charge.

>If you've got *alot* of people, then it's likely that initially
>there will be many groups acting independently at first. Once
>the situation gets a little more normalized, the different
>groups will likely begin to cooperate. Basically, what I'm
>trying to say is that the effort will start from the ground up,
>not from the top down.

Since ship's authority is absent, bottom-up is what I'm figuring.
Who comes to the fore and whether they cooperate or compete will
be the question.
  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:19:25 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Disaster Response

>Bear in mind that training and experience are not the 
>same thing. 

I don't know how to account for that, except to assume that the
skill level represents an effective average.

>How the crew responds will be crucial, as they will be
>the default heirarchy unless and until somebody else 
>takes over. 

Which is partly why I stipulated that there is *no* response at
the stage I am working on. It appears that intraship
communication is gone, so no one knows what the crew is doing.
Given the injury rates among the passengers, It's very unlikely the crew is
intact anyway.

>If a power vacuum persists for long, people may well become
>dispirited.

At the stage I'm working on, panic is the bigger problem. 
Is high intelligence an advantage to avoiding panic? It's easier
to imagine what *could* go wrong...
  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:55:53 -0700
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Express Boat Routes

At 04:45 PM 6/16/99 +0800, you wrote:
>Does anyone out there know where I can find a map showing the Express Boat
>Routes for the Magyar Sector?
>I have scoured what references I have but so far zip!
>
>Antony Farrell
It was published in Travellers' Digest 14.


Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
                       -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:19:59 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser

>Does anybody know which spot the doors actually *should* be?

I figure they're on the outside on one side - inside on the other.  
The advantage is that you can position the ship with both toward 
or away from enemy fire...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 21:08:37 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser

Chris Seamans wrote:
> 
> No. I'm not lining up Paul Jaquays and William Keith in an arena in a battle
> for supremacy. I *am* interested in the location of the elevator doors on
> the Broadsword Class Mercenary Cruiser.
> 
> Jaquays draws the doors on the "inside" of the leg in his picture in
> "Supplement 9: Fighting Ships." On the other hand, W.H. Keith draws them on
> the "outside" of the leg in various pictures (including a good one in JTAS
> #8 showing lots of mercs deploying from the vessel).
> 
> The deckplans in JTAS #8 don't seem to indicate whether the doors are on the
> outside or the inside of the starboard and port legs. In the description in
> JTAS there's no clue given either way...
> 
> Does anybody know which spot the doors actually *should* be?

My take would be:  Depends on which shipyard built the Broadsword in
question, for whom, and when.  After all, specific customers may demand
specific features, license-built models may have minor differences, and
certain features may be modified over time.

Historical example:  The Grumman F4F Wildcat, a World War II US naval
fighter, displayed all of these traits.  The first version to see
widespread service was the F4F-3.  The French Navy ordered a version
with a different engine (this order was taken over by the British upon
France's surrender).  The next major variant was the F4F-4, with folding
wings.  Eastern Aircraft (born of General Motors) built two versions for
use on escort carriers:  The FM-1, which was essentially a copy of the
F4F-4; and the FM-2.  The FM-2 differed in several ways from the
Grumman-produced birds (most obvious was a different vertical
stabilizer).

Bottom line:  Go with whichever one you prefer.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:51:52 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans wrote:

>Does anybody know which spot the doors actually *should* be?
>
>(This isn't simply an anal question. I'm working on several different
3D
>models, one of which is the Broadsword).

This is a shipyard option, the ships in the drawings depict ships built
at different shipyards.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 23:52:08 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Scan request

Who did the artwork for that supplement?
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 17:18:21 -0700
From: "Wayne" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Blast radius

> Daniel Phelps writes:
> "I think that what is being described is called a BLVE,
> a boiling liquid vapor explosion, are there any firemen,
> fire inspectors  or OSHA inspectors out there on the list
> who can give a really cogent account of the effect?"
>
> It's been a while since I covered this stuff, but
> 100 yards will probably not be enough if it acts
> like a BLVE.
>
> Peez
>
From my navy training (i.e. I saw a file on BLVE in 96 at the fire school),
the safe zone is around 400 to 500 yards. The blast time may
increase/decrease  depending on how full the tanks are to start with (i.e. a
half full O2 tank will take longer to blow than a full tank) The blast is
very impressive. Things to think about, pressure wave (camera-man throw to
ground at about 600 yards, and fireman on exstended ladder trunk about 80
feet up and 150 yard from fire was never found)

Wayne (CT/HG Tampler wanna-be)
wewart@home.com
icq22113294

Give a man fire and he is warm for the night.
Set a man on fire and he is warm all his life.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Jun 1999 22:59:53 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser

>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>Subject: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser
.
>Does anybody know which spot the doors actually *should* be?
>
>(This isn't simply an anal question. I'm working on several different 3D
>models, one of which is the Broadsword).

  FWIW, on the metal miniature from the discontinued RAFM line they appear
to be on the inside.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 02:43:52 EDT
From: TDRandall@aol.com
Subject: Jump Point Masking

Would anyone explain to me the logic behind the Jump Point Masking Table in 
Far Trader, pg 60?  I can't figure out why the larger stars would have all 
their planets automatically free, while the smallest have their planets 
automatically masked.

This seems backwards to me, and I was getting ready to play it as such.  But 
then I found the errata page which makes no mention of anything wrong on page 
60 whatsoever.

Am I reading the table wrong?  Have I forgotten some basic GURPS rule?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 02:56:54 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser

"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> asks:

>No. I'm not lining up Paul Jaquays and William Keith in an arena in a battle
>for supremacy. I *am* interested in the location of the elevator doors on
>the Broadsword Class Mercenary Cruiser.
>
>Jaquays draws the doors on the "inside" of the leg in his picture in
>"Supplement 9: Fighting Ships." On the other hand, W.H. Keith draws them on
>the "outside" of the leg in various pictures (including a good one in JTAS
>#8 showing lots of mercs deploying from the vessel).
>
>The deckplans in JTAS #8 don't seem to indicate whether the doors are on the
>outside or the inside of the starboard and port legs. In the description in
>JTAS there's no clue given either way...
>
>Does anybody know which spot the doors actually *should* be?
>
>(This isn't simply an anal question. I'm working on several different 3D
>models, one of which is the Broadsword).

 This one's easy: either or both, depending on shipyard and purchaser. I see 
it as one of those options the purchaser makes a decision on at the outset. 
Possibly influenced by the crusty old ex-Merc hull assembly crew chief...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:24:52 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Disaster Response

At 23:19 16/06/1999 -0400, Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com> wrote:

<snip>

>At the stage I'm working on, panic is the bigger problem. 
>Is high intelligence an advantage to avoiding panic? It's easier
>to imagine what *could* go wrong...

Don't overdo the panic thing - I think Hollywood likes it because it gives
action and noise.

IIRC there was a study into the Bradford City fire distaster in the UK.
(A wooden football stadium caught fire during a match.)

The result was that rather than the panic that all the press "observed"
during the event and reported the next day, there was instead, if anything,
too much calm and lack of urgency from the people not immediately threatened
by the fire.

Also a tendancy for people to expect that someone would take charge and
organise things properly.

This can be made worse by people who could organise others instead doing
stuff,
leaving lots of available help standing around and doing nothing.

It could be argued that increased civilisation makes things worse:
whilst the disaster professionals are better trained and better equipped,
the rest of the population expects the professionals to be there to solve
these problems.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 03:20:39
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Scan request

At 11:52 PM 6/16/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Who did the artwork for that supplement?

Paul Jaquays
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 00:10:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hydrogen Blast radius

In mail you write:

> Mon, 14 Jun 1999 17:31:29 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>*IF* there's a spark once the hydrogen *gas* has mixed sufficiently
>>with air, it'll burn. An explosion is *very* unlikely. And since
>>hydrogen is lighter than air it ought to rise and any flames will be
>>pretty local.
>
> At first, there will be just a fire.  But as the hydrogen burns
> out of the tank and oxygen mixes in, you will eventually get
> to an explosive combination.  Then the tank will go up.  I don't
> think it will be humungous explosion thought.  Being a 100 yards
> away and behind something should do it.  The time it takes will depend on
> how big a breach there is in the tank.  A larger breach will let it reach
> an explosive mixture sooner, but will let the energy disapate less
> violently.

But how is the oxygen going to get *in*? The *liquid* hydrogen is
boiling off and is going to be pushing everything else *out*. Once the
last of the hydrogen has boiled to gas, then as it goes out the top,
air can get in the bottom. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 00:19:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

In mail you write:

> On 06/15/99 23:30:35 you wrote:
>>
>>At 03:09 PM 6/15/99 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>I expect that most of the satellite networks are placed by folks for
>>>*free*, because they plan to make their profits selling the phones and
>>>receivers. Even worlds with class E or X ports could have a satellite
>>>network. The corporation that owned the satellites would just have
>>>ships visit every so often (6 months? a year?) to check the satellites,
>>>and see if the folks at the trading post needed more stock or parts for
>>>repairing damaged ground units. 
>>
>>Cell phone companies not only put up cell towers for free (and offer free
>>phones), but they are willing to fight for the right to put up towers. 
>>I am not trying to get political, only to point out that current economic
>>practices show that this is true. Current laws (in NY at least) mandate
>>that areas w/o cell phone coverage get towers put up so you can dial 911
>>from anywhere. The cell phone companies are falling over each other to
>>find good sites in my area.
>>
>         All true, but you don't see nearly as much excitement to put up cell
> towers all over sub-Saharan Africa or Central Asia.  Not enough people there
> will be able to afford a cell phone to pay back the company's infrastructure 
> investments. The fact that the company is willing to front the money is 
> irrelevant. The availability of hi-tech imports doesn't change the fact that 
> a low per-capita GDP means people have little money to spend on them.  
> Communications may very well be where many societies choose to spend their 
> limited resources, but those resources are limited, so we should be cautious 
> about the enthusiasm of off-worlders to invest in them.

The trick with satellite phones is that you have to put in the whole
satellite network *anyway* for the system to be useful anyway. And
given the cheapness of access to orbit in Traveller, the whole
constellation of satellites ought to be under a million. 

And assuming that these things are relatively standard, off-world
visitors can use *their* phones too. They'd just make a deposit (or
give a credit card number) to the outfit running the system. 

As for commsats and weather sats, those *are* what a lot of poor
countries here on earth have found to be *good* investments. And heck,
even with the lack of "local" stations, radios sell well throughout the
third world. Even if they do cost a month's wages or more.

And that sort of market leads to interesting products. For instance,
South Africa is now exporting a radio that I assume was originally
developed for sale in Africa. It's a medium sized, sturdy radio. With a
*crank*. You crank it for a minute or two, and it's good for 30 minutes
of listening. They also sell solar powered units. 

The advantages in back country Africa are obvious. But word got around
and folks in the US are buying them too. Not just "survivalists" but
folks who are tired of the batteries going dead in the middle of the
game while they are boating or fishing or whatever. 

So it's even possible that products developed for the "frontier" may
work their way *back* to "civilized" markets as "niche" products. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 00:30:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

In mail you write:

> On communications, we are shipping clockwork radios for parts of Africa 
> because they have no infrastructure which allows them mains supply and/or a 
> dependable supply of batteries.

Check the ads in the magazines. Those radios are being *built* in the
industrialized parts of Africa, and while they were developed for the
"back country" they are actually being shipped *to* the US, for campers
and emergency use. Which actually has the effect of lowering the price
by upping the volume. Which means they are now *more* affordable for
the "natives".

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 00:47:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Far ports and security

In mail you write:

>>BTW, a good spot for a far port might be at the leading or trailing
>>Trojan point of the mainworld. 
>
> Great idea. It works well enough for a main world in the hab zone for any 
> star
> above size K0 (using First In figures). And for a small M or K star a far 
> port
> in an unmasked orbit isn't that far in any case.  The trojans of a world in 
> the
> hab zone of a large A0 star are quite some way however - worst case could be 
> 10
> AU.

That's ok. In the real world you won't *get* habitable worlds around A0
stars anyway. They don't last long enough. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #749
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 17 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 750



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Far ports and security
Re: Jump Point Masking
Digest #748
Re: The Uplift Question
Re: Digest #748
Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser
Re: The Uplift Question
Re: Far ports and security
Real World nanites a step closer
re Hydrogen Explosion
Re: Triage
Mini-TML meeting in San Francisco
Teleportation and Jump (was Superluminal Mesons)
First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers! (was: "First we kill the lawyers!")
Re: Disaster Response
Re: 
Re: "First we kill the lawyers!" (was Re: New Site: World Maps)
PBEM Dice Roller!
Re: PBEM Dice Roller!
Another (CT) Missile question.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 00:49:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Far ports and security

In mail you write:

> Since changing the way I generate systems, I am now getting
> "earth-like" planets that are quite a bit warmer or cooler than
> earth.  Is there a good source of terra-forming information -
> scientific or SF - that I can use to add colour to change the temp of
> these worlds?  Stuff the would be visible from space would be nice
> e.g.  orbiting mirrors to warm cities, generated cloud cover to
> change albedo, regular crash landing of comets, as well as the
> bio-options).

The good news is that there's a definitive work on terraforming. The
bad news is that it costs $70. I bought it anyway. But at more than 500
pages, I'm not exactly going to be summarizing it. You might be abale
to find it at a library.

"Terraforming: Engineering Planetary Envirnoments" Martyn J. Fogg.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 05:39:08 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Jump Point Masking

>Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 02:43:52 EDT
>From: TDRandall@aol.com
>Subject: Jump Point Masking
>
>Would anyone explain to me the logic behind the Jump Point Masking Table in 
>Far Trader, pg 60?  I can't figure out why the larger stars would have all 
>their planets automatically free, while the smallest have their planets 
>automatically masked.

The table assumes that the mainworld is in the habitable zone of the
primary. For small, cool stars, that zone lies within the 100D limit. The
zone moves outward with increasing size and temperature faster than the
100D limit expands. The cross-over point is right around spectral class G0.
For large, hot stars, the habitable zone is well outside the 100D limit.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:00:59 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Digest #748

Although I greatly enjoyed Digest #748, I didn't really 
need 3 copies :-)  Did anybody else get bonus copies?

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:58:16 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

On 06/16/99 21:11:34 you wrote:
>> 	Post-GURPS, imported technology is not pervasive either.  The goods 
>> both "generally available" and "in general use" will be of local 
>> manufacture. Imported goods will show up in critical uses such as: 
>> communications, medical, & military goods.
>> 
>Communications and medical are two examples where you can see TL differences 
>in *general use* today. On medical technology, there is a significant 
>difference in the availability of technology between the US and Europe, even 
>before going on to the differences between the West and the rest. That comes 
>down to the relative proportions of GDP spent on medical technologies, but 
>translates to the model of some worlds just not having the money.

Yep.  But the imported goods you _do_ see are often in these sectors.  Remember, I'm the one 
arguing that just because it's *possible* to simply order hi-tech goods out of a catalogue, that 
doesn't mean low-tech worlds are covered with hi-tech imports.

>On military items:
>- using the Pocket Empires/Naval Squadrons model (which you guys may disavow, 
>I dunno), most worlds don't have the resources to support a standing army
>- under the Pax Imperia, they can't run one anyway. If they did need a 
>standing army, and given the way that Imperial period warfare seems to work, 
>they'd better build a local armaments infrastructure which can be sustained 
>while the world is under blockade.

	I don't think the above is canonical.  My understanding is that worlds are definitely 
allowed to have their own planetary army and navy.  Whether they do or not again probably 
depends on their wealth.

>> >There are several barriers besides poverty:
>> >- no repair infrastructure/skills/spare parts, except imported ones
>> >- up to TL4, poor distribution networks; up to TL7/8, global distribution 
>> is slower than interstellar distribution.
>> >- no enabling infrastructure (why buy a phone if there's no network, or a 
>> TV if there are no broadcasters, or no energy supply grid, or a car if 
>> there's no refined fuels)
>> >- poverty and low population concentrations -> no incentive to invest in 
>> supporting infrastructure (why build and supply a global chain of WalMarts 
>> to service a global population of say, 5000, or even 500,000).
>> 
>> Poverty means that the market is not big enough to make a particular 
>> high-tech business profitable.  All of the above reasons are just more ways 
>> of saying the same thing.  Without low incomes, they can all be fixed.
>
>Hmmm ... actually its a question of potential market (pop * income) versus 
>cost of sale. I guess if under FT income is actually an expression of monetary 
>income, TL (which would include infrastructure) and population density then 
>this is true, but it's stretching most people's understanding of the word 
>poverty.

	I was trying to keep this simple.  If you are looking for the most accurate measurement, 
it is WTN.  This takes into account GWP, GWP/capita, and TL.  
	As for my earlier point, the reason there are no repair centers, supporting 
infrastructure, etc.,is that there is not a large enough market to support them.  If the people 
on the planet became wealthier they would have more money to spend on such things and businesses 
would emerge to supply the increased demand.  This is why I said income is the most important 
thing.  "Poverty" was perhaps a loaded term, but I does mean relative deprivation and I didn't 
know you'd want to get into it at this level of detail.

>> 	Certainly food and raw materials are shipped in Traveller, and FT 
>> takes them into accout, but there's good reason to believe they don't 
>> account for the majority of cargo by *value*.  Simply put, shipping goods to 
>> another star system is relatively expensive so it makes sense to ship the 
>> most value-dense items first.  As for price fluctuations, commodity raw 
>> materials have much greater price swings than finished manufactured goods.  
>> Just follow the commodity price figures in the business section of your 
>> newspaper or on the web.
>> 
>
>I just checked the Guardian for the interstellar traded commodities page but they don't seem to 
print it on a Wednesday :-)
>
>Commodity raw material price fluctuations on 20th century earth are a reflection of the market 
conditions and infrastructure that support them. The assumptions in the Imperium are drastically 
different:

	First, what's important is not volatility compared to 20thCen Terra, but volatility 
relative to other goods in the 3I.  Second, I don't see how any of the differences you state 
below are going to greatly change the volatility of commodities.  Third, commodities are 
volatile precisely because they are often necessary raw materials (like food) for which demand 
does not change much with a change in price.  This is called inelastic demand.  Furthermore, 
supply is often quite inelastic as well (eg. the farmer who planted the crop a year ago is going 
to harvest it almost regardless of the price).  When you combine these two factors, a sudden 
change in demand (supply) will greatly change the price because suppliers (demanders) cannot 
easily change their production (consumption) to match changed conditions.

>- 7 day communication and shipping time (communication time = shipping time)
>- many markets (ie systems) cannot support themselves in essentials. especially food. In which 
case there are going to be market conditions (either by price or subsidy) which ensure that 
these goods are shipped first (since if such conditions did not prev
>ail the systems in question would die, pace Hard Times). Because demand is relatively fixed and 
local production are fixed, the variables are the price where I buy the products I'm going to 
sell (which is subject to similar variations to those we experien
>ce today) and the number of other people importing commodities to the target market. This is a 
very different position to the one we experience today.

	There are plenty of countries that are totally dependent on commodity imports, be they 
food or oil.  The fact that the populations of some Traveller planets would die without food 
imports only makes them more demand inelastic and hence more price volatile.
	The fact that _demand_ is stable does not at all mean that _prices_ are stable.

>- the really big economies generate so much demand, and interstellar shipping is so relatively 
expensive, that large scale export becomes uneconomic. Most of production by the large 
industrial economies is probably for the domestic market.

	Most production by the large industrial economies _is_ for the domestic market, but this 
has nothing to do with whether large scale exports are uneconomic.  BTW, you really need to be 
more clear what you mean by "large scale."  Large scale compared to Glisten's economy?  Or large 
scale compared to Asteltine's economy?  Glisten's total trade is only about 1% of its GWP, but 
total trade is 84% of Asteltine's GWP.  

>What I'm stumbling towards is that the weakness and size of the smaller markets, and of local 
infrastructure, militates against large scale freight. On the other hand, there must be an 
economic system which allows for low value essential goods (essential 
>being food, some medicine and life support) to be transferred on a large scale in order to 
support these worlds. 

	You're arguing both sides of it now.  You're saying on the one hand large scale freight 
doesn't happen because the economies of outlying worlds are too small, but on the other hand 
large scale freight must happen because we know some worlds depend on it.  
	I think the answer comes in the definition of "large scale."  From the POV of Glisten, 
there is no large scale freight because the outlying worlds economies are too small to demand a 
significant fraction of Glisten's economic output.  From the POV of the outlying worlds, large 
scale trade does happen because big worlds like Glisten produce many things they can't live 
without and imports from those worlds are large relative to their local economies.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
co-author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:27:00 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Digest #748

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, June 17, 1999 10:01 AM
Subject: Digest #748


>Although I greatly enjoyed Digest #748, I didn't really 
>need 3 copies :-)  Did anybody else get bonus copies?


Shhhh! Just save the extras. One day they might be collectors' items. ;)

(You could probably sell them on E-Bay already!)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:44:28 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser

Okay, thanks for the input everybody. The suggestion that the location of
the doors is based on the ship yard (and the purchaser) seems to be a good
one.

Although Thomas Schoene's suggestion was nifty as well: one's on the
outside, the other's on the inside. The ship can be positioned for cover if
needed.

Currently, I'm bump mapping the cutter and might have a sample up shortly.
I'm also working on several other modelled scenes that are a bit less
starship oriented. One is of the St. Bridget subsector capital building on
my non-canon world of the same name. Another is of a cute little
Ling-Standard Products cleaning robot... well, actually it's of a small
fleet of them. I may set up a little gallery of sorts soon. There're others
that I'm working on as well.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:10:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > On communications, we are shipping clockwork radios for parts of Africa
> > because they have no infrastructure which allows them mains supply and/or a
> > dependable supply of batteries.
> 
> Check the ads in the magazines. Those radios are being *built* in the
> industrialized parts of Africa, and while they were developed for the
> "back country" they are actually being shipped *to* the US, for campers
> and emergency use. Which actually has the effect of lowering the price
> by upping the volume. Which means they are now *more* affordable for
> the "natives".

Well the inventor/manufacturer of these radios has a simple
mission...get as many of these into the hands of the world's poor as
possible, which is why they sell for $75 here in the states. His idea is
everyone who buys one here, is essentially buying two or three more for
Africa, by subsidizing the cost.

Also, he's starting to make them with 12v output jacks, too, so that
your crank flashlight or radio can also be used to power your laptop, CD
player or other gadget (like charging your run-down satellite phone so
you could call for help from the middle of the Kalihari ;-)

They are very cool devices. 

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 09:50:25 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Far ports and security

Robert Prior wrote:

> >BTW, I have randomly generated about 50 systems using First In, and it took me
> >46 attempts to get one Earthlike planet. Got a few rockballs, a few asteroid
> >belts, and a hostile world in the hab zone, but it is very difficult to get an
> >"earth-like" world.  It is very hard indeed to get one with an earth-like
> >temperature range.
>

Personally I think this is great. I never like the plethora of habitable planets
in the OTU, I think that Earth-type worlds should be extremely rare, with
technology being the primary way to overcome hostile environments. The use of
orbital colonies in the "green zone", biodomes on moderately hostile worlds, or
habitation by biologically adapted natives/colonists. Also, "adapted" could
include genegineered colonists or colonists of an alien race that had evolved on a
simular world.

>
> Book 6: Scouts was like that too.  I ended up setting the temperature and
> calculating backwards to the albedo, and sometimes just changing the star
> type when I couldn't get things working out.

I thought albedo was determined by atmospheric density and make-up. Can you really
tweak it at will without explaining it away as a technological modification? That
would add a little more "flavor" to star systems, IMHO.

>
>
> Looks like Grandfather was busy, nudging all those worlds into just the
> right place... :-)
>

But how many of those "nudged" worlds are asteroid belts now?

>
> >Is it really possible for a multiple star system containing a white dwarf to
> >have habitable planets? Wouldn't the death of the star that led to the white
> >dwarf have sterilised any planets, and blown away their atmospheres?
>
> Probably.

Unless Atmosphere was imported from nearby ice-balls, admittedly a daunting task
at CT TL"F"

>
>
> >Wouldn't
> >the dying star have lost mass and therefore the orbits would have changed, or
> >at least the forbidden orbits zone should be much larger (based on pre-white
> >dwarf star type which must be bigger than the current primary)?
>
> Sounds like it to me. But then I'm not an astronomer.  Bruce?
>
> >Since changing the way I generate systems, I am now getting "earth-like"
> >planets
> >that are quite a bit warmer or cooler than earth.

Again, is this really undesirable?  Consider Hoth, not truly an ice-ball as it has
breathable atmosphere and an indiginous ecosystem. Unless Wampas are imported. And
for the other end of the scale, Tattooine.

> >Is there a good source of
> >terra-forming information - scientific or SF - that I can use to add colour to
> >change the temp of these worlds? Stuff the would be visible from space would be
> nice.

Those huge atmosphere processors in Aliens might fit the bill.

BZA, aka Chirping Elf

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:04:46 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Real World nanites a step closer

Check out:

http://www.newscientist.com/ns/19990619/theengineo.html

wow!

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:19:29 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: re Hydrogen Explosion

> From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>

> The courier will crash and fracture, with small fires. The players will get
> a few minutes to escape then I fry the courier with a hydrogen fire, which
> may just take out the Marine G -Carrier that's landing in pursuit.

How close will the gcarrier land?  I think the Marines would know enough
to land at a safe distance.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:27:29 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Triage

> From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>

> >Medical triage has been well addressed in several posts, but I
> >would like to give my Cr0.02 on legal issues in a crash
> >situation. 
> 
> <snippage>
> 
> Thanks for the thought, but legal issues will not probably not be
> a major concern.  After two major misjumps, the ship is no longer
[deletion]
> The measures you suggest will probably become objects of
> contention between the "plan for rescue" versus "plan to stay
> permanently" factions among the passengers.

If I've helped create objects of contention, then I feel I've done my
professional duty. I'll send you my bill via email.

- --Glenn M. Goffin, Esq.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 10:44:09 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Mini-TML meeting in San Francisco

I had the pleasure of meeting Ethan Henry at the JavaOne conference in
San Francisco yesterday.  I've been connecting faces and email addresses
more in the last month or so than at any time in the last five years,
and hope the trend continues.  I'll continue my practice of posting to
the list whenever I'm going to travel somewhere, and encourage you all
to do the same.  If you're coming to the Bay Area, there are several of
us here who'd like to meet you.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:18:52 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Teleportation and Jump (was Superluminal Mesons)

> From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
> Subject: Re: Superluminal Mesons

> of Jump.  Essentially, since Jump is the only method of mechanical FTL
> travel available in the "standard" Traveller universe.  This does leave
> psionic teleportation unfortunately.  So either teleportation and Jump
> use different aspects of Jumpspace, and eventually people will figure
> out how to do "instantaneous" Jumps, or teleportation is quite a
> different phenomenon, and possibly subject to relativity/paradox
> problems or to a different "special frame of reference."  I guess that
> again my preferece would be for all psionics to be subject to a "special
> frame of reference" but a different one from the Jumpspace SFOR.

There are two canonical forms of teleportation:  via psionics and via
Ancient technology.  Psionic teleportation is very limited in range, so
relativity issues don't tend to arise in practice (but theory should
still be addressed).  HIWG did a paper on physics explanations of
psionic phenonema, including teleportation, but I can't find my copy and
don't remember what it said.  

Ancient technology is described in Secret of the Ancients.  The Ancient
teleporter consists of two big ring-shaped devices.  Each ring opens
into and exits from the same very small pocket universe.  The rings
could of course be anywhere in our universe -- one here, the other one
in the next room or on the other side of the galaxy.  Because the pocket
universe is only one meter long, the traveller requires a fraction of a
second to go from one place to the other.  

The phenomenon of jump seems to be somewhat similar to Ancient
teleportation, but there are of course major differences.  

I leave the physics analysis to the scientists on the list.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:52:25 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers! (was: "First we kill the lawyers!")

> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>

> Hm. I've mixed up names again. Is there a lawyer named Roderick out there?
> Articulate chap, lives in Montreal?

You know, people in need might call out, "is there a doctor in the
house?", but no one ever asks, "is there a lawyer in the house?" and not
without good reason -- for all of us lawyers, being a risk-averse and
protection-oriented lot (how many lawyers like playing bodyguards and
security officers in Traveller? show of hands), will surely just not
hear the request and put our heads back down to whatever we were doing
- -- and the feeling of risk and unprotectedness of course arises in part
out of concern over committing malpractice in giving advice without
taking adequate time to gather in and reflect on all the relevant facts
and laws, for ours is not a profession that deals with emergencies in
the time frames faced by medical professionals, but that feeling is also
based on the possibility that the asker is really Jack Cade or Dick the
Butcher, instituting one of the planks of their revolutionary platform,
expressed in Henry VI, part 2 (but I don't have the act:scene citation,
sorry) as Jack sets forth his vision of utopian England with himself
("worshipped," if you please) as king, and Dick adds, "First thing we
do, let's kill all the lawyers!"

Ob Traveller:  Anyway, I don't know much about intellectual property
law, so I tend to stay out of these discussions on the TML, but I do
like to see the Bard quoted correctly.  

- --Glenn M. Goffin, Esq.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 11:54:29 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Disaster Response

> From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>

> Is high intelligence an advantage to avoiding panic? It's easier
> to imagine what *could* go wrong...

I think it's neutral.  Training and experience have a lot more to do
with responses to the adrenaline rush of an emergency.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:03:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re: 

>Alternatively, large scale freight brings essentials (food, life support)
>to the smaller markets and returns with raw materials bound eventually for
>the larger economies (which are so large that they rapidly deplete local
>supplies - problem though is it would be cheaper to mine insystem than
>trade across systems), and is maybe subsidised in some way. Non-mass
>demand items (everything else) is carried by small traders.
>
>Alternative three - large scale freight is subsidised in some way, other
>items are carried by small traders.
>
>Or some combination of the above. Ideas?

3 is supported by canon.

However, option 4: any market too small for general trade, but with
specific needs for goods like food or breathables, will be supported by
some high value local commodity (including tourism). Nothing like someone
going to an acidbathed rock like wypoc to go hunting dragons. (When I first
generated encounter tables for wypoc, I got max rolls for a flying
predator....) Hunting dragons in an insidious atmosphere, using big guns...
big money. Trips start at about MCr1, departing from regina. Combat armor
included. Must be paid in reginan or imperial Credits. (Actual costs of the
trip 2j2 round trip, 1 suit combat armor, KCr100, KCr20 in expendable
weapons, food and life support charges. Most of which can be bough with
local TL 10 Credits....) so  a hefty levy on cash import can fund a quite
powerful economy.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 12:18:43 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: "First we kill the lawyers!" (was Re: New Site: World Maps)

Well, I just officially got my license to practice in Massachusetts.
Scary.

Time to put a Disclaimer in all my future posts related to legal issues. ;-)

I might change my sig file to
"Bloo, Esquire"

Except that I hate the "esquire" title because its absolutely meaningless
in the U.S., and most lawyers I know think its special and you're
only entitled to use it after you become a lawyer, when in fact,
anyone can claim that title, or any other.  I can claim the title
Lord, Duke, Count, whatever.

Does "Esquire" still carry some weight in the UK, Canada, Austrailia,
New Zealand?  If so, what do you call a lawyer who has been knighted?
"Sir Something, Esquire"? I hope the Esquire is dropped.

Would there be a title, or title suffix, for members of the Imperial Bar?
What would the Vilani equivalent be?

Bloo.


Robert Prior wrote:

> >Okay, I know I'm 10 days behind posting on this, but I'm 10 days
> >behind *reading* the TML too. ;->
> >
> >On 06/06/99 at 01:19 PM,  Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca> said:
> >
> >>And here we have a perfect real-world example for copyright. IIRC,
> >>Steve Daniels and Eris are lawyers, so hopefully they can explain the
> >>legal position.
> >
> >Whoa!  Steve might be an attorney, but Eris is not, Not, NOT!  Never
> >has been.  Never will be.  Not that there's anything *wrong* with
> >being a lawyer...<gd&r>
> >
> >Eris,
> >    heretic yes, lawyer no
>
> Hm. I've mixed up names again. Is there a lawyer named Roderick out there?
> Articulate chap, lives in Montreal?

- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco, Inc.

http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:26:49 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: PBEM Dice Roller!

I don't know if some of you have seen this or not.
I hadn't and was elated to find it.

http://www.irony.com/
specifically
http://www.irony.com/mailroll.html

For players who absolutely have to have their fate in their hands
and prefer to roll their own dice, or push the button that rolls them,
this site is great.  It sends a secure email message to your gamemaster
with the output.  You can even verify it if it looks out of whack.

The response is very quick.  Certainly no delay for a PBEM.
Combined with Roger Wilco (real-time FREE multilplayer
voice over the internet) </shameless plug>, or an IRC/ICQ
text-chat, real-time internet RPG play is possible with the
players and the GM both seeing the dice.  Of course,
the GM won't show his dice to the player, but the player
can see the results of his own rolls.

Below is the email I got when I sent myself a test for a chargen
roll for 3d6 for 6 stats, ignoring lowest die.


> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> chargen
>
> bloo@rogerwilco.com requested that 6 rolls of 4 6-sided dice be
> rolled.
> The lowest die for each roll won't be counted.
> Roll them bones ... your dice are
> Roll 1: 4, [1], 2, 4 = 10.
> Roll 2: [2], 6, 5, 4 = 15.
> Roll 3: [1], 3, 1, 4 = 8.
> Roll 4: [2], 4, 2, 4 = 10.
> Roll 5: 3, [1], 1, 2 = 6.
> Roll 6: 5, [1], 5, 5 = 15.
>
> Mail was sent to you at bloo@rogerwilco.com and to
> stevedaniels@portcaddo.com.
> (Mail addresses have not been confirmed.)
>
>  ---
> Irony Games' public PGP key is available at
> http://www.irony.com/verifyroll.html
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: 2.6.2
>
> iQBVAwUBN2lQx7yfeleUG9SNAQETagH/ecj5yZUonQrBUpWPSzrtck4tx45frT4F
> ODaTevInhdPMzMg5x6zTNmC7auMHFJHvHsreeRCJ+iUlv5y4QnCC5g==
> =Jxou
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco, Inc.

http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:45:37 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: PBEM Dice Roller!

At 03:26 PM 6/17/99 -0400, Steve Daniels wrote:
>I don't know if some of you have seen this or not.
>I hadn't and was elated to find it.
>
>http://www.irony.com/
>specifically
>http://www.irony.com/mailroll.html
>

You can also email dice@pbm.com with the word 'help' in the body of the
message to get instructions on how to use their email dice roller. They send
you their PGP public key (amongst other instructions) with the reply.
The output is a little too long to include here, but you can check it out
yourself.
Also, you can look at www.pbm.com

- -- 
I could not say I believe. I know! I have had the experience of being gripped
by something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God.
							-- Carl Jung
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 16:41:33 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Another (CT) Missile question.

This is my second time doing this. I look through book 2. Missile racks
are..., missiles cost..., missiles are expended, sandcaster canisters weigh
50 kg, but what does a standard missile weigh? How many can be put in a
missile rack, stored right there in the turret, and how many can I stack in
my hold?

High Guard is also no help on this. In particular, the Kinunir class is 
shown to have two batteries of missiles, but no mention is made of how many 
missiles there are on the ship. On IN Form 3 (Ship's Data) There is a magazine
section (25b), but no mention of this in the rules.

I thank Michel R. Vaillancourt for his wonderful missile design spreadsheet 
(based on some rules I don't have) which tells me I can have a 1G, TL9, 5kg
HE missile that will weigh 12kg, but how many can I stick in a missile rack
and not have to worry about extra magazine storage?

- -- 
I could not say I believe. I know! I have had the experience of being gripped
by something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God.
							-- Carl Jung
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #750
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 17 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 751



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Disaster Response
Re:Jump Point Masking
Re:First In Comments
RE: Another (CT) Missile question
Re: [ship] Experimental Scout
Re: "First we kill the lawyers!" (was Re: New Site: World Maps)
Real World nanites a step closer
Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser
First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers!
TML, Face-to-face
Re: Far ports and security
Re: Far ports and security
SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Human powered radios
re Hydrogen Explosion
Re: The Uplift Question
re: "First we kill the lawyers!"
Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser
Re: ERROR on .SEC files!
Esquire
Re: Another (CT) Missile question.
RE: Mini-TML meeting in San Francisco
Re: First In Comments
Original Type C Cruiser?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:40:25 CEST
From: Patrik "Holmström" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Disaster Response

>>If a power vacuum persists for long, people may well become
>>dispirited.
>
>At the stage I'm working on, panic is the bigger problem.
>Is high intelligence an advantage to avoiding panic? It's easier
>to imagine what *could* go wrong...

I would say that intelligence is only a minor factor. I think the more 
important ones would be personality and experience. Also remember that a 
percentage of the population is very resistant to panic while others panic 
very easily. This is independent of profession but of course not many in the 
last category are going to become successful emergency or military 
personnel.

Panic is not as common as in the movies but if it occurs it can be _very 
deadly if people are crushed or make stupid decisions (40 people were killed 
and many more were injured in Prague (?) when 10’000 rushed for shelter in a 
subway station to avoid heavy rains).

Patrik Holmström <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:34:50 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re:Jump Point Masking

>Would anyone explain to me the logic behind the Jump Point Masking Table in 
>Far Trader, pg 60?  I can't figure out why the larger stars would have all 
>their planets automatically free, while the smallest have their planets 
>automatically masked.

The hab zone of stars below size K0 are *always* inside the 100D limit of the
star. The hab zones of more massive stars get progressively further away, in
star diameters. The hab zone of a massive A0 star is about 250 to 350 Star
Diameters out.  So the probability of masking decreases with increasing star
size. However the worst case masking for a small star isn't that big. The worst
case masking for a big star is huge. Hence the recent thread on far-ports.

Go on, put far-ports in the leading and trailing trojan points of all your main
worlds, you know it makes sense :-)

Notes from First In:
1) It is not scientifically likely that stars of A0 and bigger have any planets
at all, they don't live long enough.
2) You may get slightly less masking using First In figures than those presented
in Far Trader (based on Scouts).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:08:24 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re:First In Comments

<snip terra-forming possibilities>

>Take the procedure given as an indication of what values are most 
>likely, but feel free to set them to
>a value that gives you the result you want, and come up with a handwave
>to explain it if it's far from the mean.

But I *want* large & showy terra-forming projects.  
IMO these are more SF than the handwave.

Note: I seem to get more planets in the hab zone if I use a more continuous Bode
Sequence number (0.3 + (D6-1)/50).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 17:12:58 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Another (CT) Missile question

Rob Brady writes:
"This is my second time doing this. I look through book 2. 
Missile racks are..., missiles cost..., missiles are 
expended, sandcaster canisters weigh 50 kg, but what does 
a standard missile weigh? How many can be put in a missile 
rack, stored right there in the turret, and how many can I 
stack in my hold?"
<snipped>

	I have always used basic 50 kg missiles, but I cannot 
	remember how I got started. As far as how many, I am
	almost certain that Book 2 mentions a capacity of 3
	missiles in each launcher. I allow 20 basic missiles 
	per ton of hold.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 17:16:12 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: [ship] Experimental Scout

At 10:19 PM 6/15/99 -0400, I wrote:
>
>Explorer Experimental Scout Ship (Type SZ)
>The first interstellar ship created on Eide, the 250 ton Star Explorer was
>sent to the nearby system of Amho to gather information. The Explorer crew
>complement consists of a Pilot, Navigator, Engineer, and Medic, with 2
>Gunners, and Computer/Sensors Operator making the full crew complement. The

A mistake here - I need 3 Engineers for the amount of drives I have, so I
also need to add a stateroom.

>actually be deployed as a 200 ton small attack vessel, but generally the 50
>ton sensor module is added for heightened information appraisal. The sensor
This is now completely nonsense. The hull is now 250 tons, and the extra
cargo room (8.5 tons!) is used for sensors. I will have to see where I can
trim more room.

I could cut the maneuver drive down, but I think they are very paranoid about
what will be waiting for them when they jump, and they want a high agility,
highly armored ship. Maybe I am just making them too paranoid, but their
system is in the middle of a cold war.

>USP:  SZ - 2414838 - 310000 - 30000 - 0
 USP:  SZ - 2414832 - 310000 - 30000 - 0

You can see the html of the spreadsheet (which helped me find the problems) 
at http://www.datatone.com/~robb/traveller/Explorer.html

I am thinking about deckplans, but I need to think some more...
13.5 m**3 per ton, but what is the height of a standard room, 3 meters?


- -- 
I could not say I believe. I know! I have had the experience of being gripped
by something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God.
							-- Carl Jung
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:41:32 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: "First we kill the lawyers!" (was Re: New Site: World Maps)

>Does "Esquire" still carry some weight in the UK, Canada, Austrailia,
>New Zealand? 

Not in the UK. Around 15 years ago all official mail to men was addressed to say
Mr Buston, Esquire.  No special meaning other than you were male (I remember
because my bank changed my sex once without telling me 8-0 ). This has long
since been dropped as an anachronism, at least in regular use.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:45:46 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Real World nanites a step closer

>Check out: http://www.newscientist.com/ns/19990619/theengineo.html

Looks like they are at the a similar stage in nano-tech as computers were at the
invention of the transistor. So 30 years from now...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:11:30 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser

> From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>

> my non-canon world of the same name. Another is of a cute little
> Ling-Standard Products cleaning robot... well, actually it's of a small
> fleet of them. I may set up a little gallery of sorts soon. There're others

How much will these sell for?  My apartment is quite a mess.  Do they do
dishes and windows?  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:58:26 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: First thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers!

> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: Re: "First we kill the lawyers!" (was Re: New Site: World Maps)
> 
> Well, I just officially got my license to practice in Massachusetts.
> Scary.

Congratulations!  Let me be the first to welcome you to the dark side of
the force.  

> Time to put a Disclaimer in all my future posts related to legal issues.

That's actually a good idea if there is any possibility that your posts
will be taken for legal advice.  What's more important is that you quote
Shakespeare correctly in your subject line.  It should be:  First thing
we do, let's kill all the lawyers!

> Except that I hate the "esquire" title because its absolutely meaningless

The U.S. of course did away with inherited/noble titles when the country
was founded, but it still keeps titles based on achievement.  E.g., we
have military ranks and civilian official titles (President,
Commissioner).  Titles based on state-issued licenses are also common
(e.g., M.D., Esq., P.E., R.N., C.F.E., M.C.L.U., A.I.A.), and sometimes
have the force of law, for example when appending initials to which
you're not entitled to your name leads to violation of the laws against
practicing a profession or holding yourself out as practicing a
profession of which you are not a licensed member. 

(In many civil law countries, you and I will be addressed as Doctor,
because we have Juris Doctor degrees, whereas most lawyers there have
only a B.A.-level degree, and the Germans are of course nuts for titles
- -- "Herr Doktor Rechtsanwalt Bloo" has a certain ring, don't you think?)

"Esq." is so commonly used by American lawyers and American lawyers only
that a prosecutor could make a case that a non-lawyer using the
appendage is holding himself out as a lawyer in violation of such a
statute.  (As a practical matter, prosecutors usually have more
important things to do, like prosecuting paralegals who run self-help
legal clinics.)  

> Would there be a title, or title suffix, for members of the Imperial Bar?

You may be quite sure that the stratified, status-conscious,
Vilani-influenced Imperium has lots of titles and suffixes and stuff. 
Here's how I handle it:  

At the member state level there will be a lot of variation, so let's not
worry about it.  
Imperial judicial courts are a part of the courts of the nobility, so
only nobles (here knights or above) are allowed to practice before
them.  Non-noble lawyers may work in conjunction with noble lawyers in a
relationship similar to the barrister/solicitor relationship in Britain
and other countries that follow its model.  

Non-noble lawyers may also serve the courts directly as law clerks or
research attorneys, but will not appointed as judges; only nobles serve
as judges in Imperial courts.  

Licensing of lawyers is handled by the Imperial courts themselves, and
the nobles who set up the courts normally confer licensing authority on
the court, although some nobles retain it, or retain licensing authority
in conjunction with that of the court.  The courts decide how lawyers
are to be designated, and they all do it a little differently.

One of the Emperor title's is of course Supreme Judge of the Grand
Empire of the Stars, but he rarely exercises that duty, referring
matters that come before him to the Supreme Imperial Judicial Court, of
which he is the only avenue of appeal.  The Archdukes and sector and
subsector dukes are authorized by their patents of title to establish
courts in their respective domains, sectors, and subsectors, and the
relationships among those courts are in part a matter of Imperial law
and custom and in part a matter of agreement among those nobles.  

Any noble with a fief may establish whatever legal system he or she
desires; courts in fiefs are normally called "manorial courts", and
exercise both judicial and administrative functions (as well as the
butt-kissing function, a time-honored function of non-judicial courts).  

The Imperial Bar Association is not a licensing body, but a trade
association, not unlike the American Bar Association.  It produces
helpful publications (including directories), helps make mentor
connections, runs job ads, lobbies on behalf of the profession, etc. 
Members may put I.B.A. after their names, but it's just marketing; it
only means they're entitled to practice before some Imperial court and
paid the annual dues.  

So the bottom line is that lawyers practicing before Imperial courts
will have noble titles and suffixes, and each court will confer an
additional title or suffix to indicate that that person is authorized to
practice before it.  Most lawyers entitled to practice before the
Imperial courts have adopted an I.B.A.-inspired common suffix, so that
they can at least tell at a glance who is and who is not admitted to
practice before the Imperial courts.  In my Traveller universe, they
have chosen "Esq.", a title with a long history, that was carried into
the Ziru Sirka by the conquering Terrans many generations ago, and that
is not already an official title in the Imperium.

> What would the Vilani equivalent be?

The Vilani would simply translate the various titles.  Admissions to
practice before the Imperial courts are normally issued in at least High
Vilani and Galanglic, but may be in other languages as necessary.  (My
Imperium isn't particularly hung up on "official languages".)  "Esq."
remains "Esq."

- --Glenn M. Goffin, Esq.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:15:59 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: TML, Face-to-face

I don't do a lot of travelling, for a number of reasons, but if
anyone is going to be in NYC or the northern suburbs thereof,
feel free to drop me a note, and we can try to set something up.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 14:56:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Far ports and security

In mail you write:

> Book 6: Scouts was like that too.  I ended up setting the temperature and
> calculating backwards to the albedo, and sometimes just changing the star
> type when I couldn't get things working out.
>
> Looks like Grandfather was busy, nudging all those worlds into just the
> right place... :-)

Actually, if you want to invoke Grandfather you can do *lots* of neat
things. For example, a planet/satellite somewhat larger than the moon
could have been given a "normal" atmosphere by Grandfather, and if you
go with only slightly optimistic calculations it won't have thinned out
all that much in the last 300,000 years. 

Of course, such a setup *screams* TERRAFORMED to anybody with any
background in theory (or practice) of planetary surveying. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 15:01:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Far ports and security

In mail you write:

>> Book 6: Scouts was like that too.  I ended up setting the temperature and
>> calculating backwards to the albedo, and sometimes just changing the star
>> type when I couldn't get things working out.
>
> I thought albedo was determined by atmospheric density and make-up.
> Can you really tweak it at will without explaining it away as a
> technological modification?  That would add a little more "flavor" to
> star systems, IMHO.

Well, albedo involves a number of factors. For example, a small random
fluctuation in albedo (say from cloud cover, or upper atmosphere dust)
can result in a runaway effect. 

More light gets reflected, planet gets cooler, more snow falls (and
*stays* through much of the summer), resulting in more light being
reflected. It's self-reinforcing until some factor breaks it. 

So you wind up with a planet-wide ice age. Then all that weight
pressing down causes tectonic plates to shift, and maybe you get a
major volcanic eruption that blasts dust across all that ice. This
increases the amount of light absorbed, and melts some of the ice. You
may get another re-inforcing cycle leading back to a tropical climate. 

Some of the factors that affect this sort of thing are the presence of
life, and axial tilt changes over time. That last is thought to be the
big difference between Earth and Mars. The moon stabilizes our axis, so
it changes slowly and in a simple manner. 

Mars' axis, on the other hand, seems to wander chaotically. Leading to
wide climate flucuations. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 08:43:45 +1000
From: "Hughes, Michael" <Michael.Hughes@cbr.defence.gov.au>
Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Human powered radios

In Oz, when the Royal Flying Doctor Service started (1920's?), an air
ambulance service which covered the top end (Capricorn and up I think), most
isolated stations had strips built and bought pedal powered radios so they
could call in. Apparently they were rugged S.O.B.s that kept going and going
and going (infringement of copyright unintentional), provided of course the
pedal power was applied.

I think they used the same sets for school of the air, which was the
external schooling for outback kiddies who tuned on in for lessons then
mailed in their homework.

Ob Traveller; I kind of had this idea that given the later tech's usage of
computers that many worlds would simply have internet schooling, with face
to face more expensive and consequently the domain of the wealthier
families. Any ideas? Responses?

*	Michael 
 
		
		<snip>

		And that sort of market leads to interesting products. For
instance,
		South Africa is now exporting a radio that I assume was
originally
		developed for sale in Africa. It's a medium sized, sturdy
radio. With a
		*crank*. You crank it for a minute or two, and it's good for
30 minutes
		of listening. They also sell solar powered units. 

		The advantages in back country Africa are obvious. But word
got around
		and folks in the US are buying them too. Not just
"survivalists" but
		folks who are tired of the batteries going dead in the
middle of the
		game while they are boating or fishing or whatever. 

		So it's even possible that products developed for the
"frontier" may
		work their way *back* to "civilized" markets as "niche"
products. 

		- -- 
		Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
		 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
		leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

		

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:42:02 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re Hydrogen Explosion

"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net> writes:

>> The courier will crash and fracture, with small fires. The players will get
>> a few minutes to escape then I fry the courier with a hydrogen fire, which
>> may just take out the Marine G -Carrier that's landing in pursuit.
>
>How close will the gcarrier land?  I think the Marines would know enough
>to land at a safe distance.

Hmm, maybe I let the Zho's have a single, surviving warbot which dies in
the fight; alternatively, I could make them local militia? Or both?

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:44:52 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) writes:

>And that sort of market leads to interesting products. For instance,
>South Africa is now exporting a radio that I assume was originally
>developed for sale in Africa. It's a medium sized, sturdy radio. With a
>*crank*. You crank it for a minute or two, and it's good for 30 minutes
>of listening. They also sell solar powered units.
>So it's even possible that products developed for the "frontier" may
>work their way *back* to "civilized" markets as "niche" products.

The inventor is Trevor Bayliss, IIRC. He had a lot of trouble getting
funding for it.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:46:40 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: "First we kill the lawyers!"

"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net> writes:
>Not that there's anything *wrong* with
>being a lawyer...<gd&r>

Is that part of the GT revisions to the Traveller background? ;-)

>Eris,
>    heretic yes, lawyer no

Maybe.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 19:10:50 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser

- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, June 17, 1999 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser


>> From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>
>> my non-canon world of the same name. Another is of a cute little
>> Ling-Standard Products cleaning robot... well, actually it's of a small
>> fleet of them. I may set up a little gallery of sorts soon. There're
others
>
>How much will these sell for?  My apartment is quite a mess.  Do they do
>dishes and windows?


These particular little guys don't do dishes and windows, although I'm sure
there'll be critters that do. ;)

Hopefully they'll be cheap so you can own hundreds of them. These guys are
the VacRat model: tiny mouse-sized vacuum cleaners.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 17:14:16 -0700
From: "Edward C. Anderson" <dalthor@calweb.com>
Subject: Re: ERROR on .SEC files!

Mike Wittek wrote:

> Since some of you base your Traveller programs on the use of SEC files
> that can be found at the Missouri Archives, I want to give you and
> others a warning. A friend of mine and I found at least one error in the
> code. Chronor's (Spinward Marches) PBG code was incorrect based on
> published works. My friend stated that he had found other errors while
> using a mapping program which uses the .SEC files.
>
> Now, I am *not* knocking those that took the time to produce the
> freeware or the .SEC files. Just want to warn those that plan to use the
> maps. Double check the accuracy of the subsectors before use them!  :)
>
>

I'm the chucklehead that found some of the errors.  The main one I remember
is Chronor/Chronor, with a "304" listing for Pop/Planetoid/Gas giants.

According to the printed material (Megatraveller Imp Ency, G:T Behind the
Claw, and GT: Far Trader) it should be 810.

There are others, I just don't recall them at this time.

Anybody able to verify any of this "officially"?

- --
Edward C. Anderson
Please remove the "no-spam." from my reply-to address
If I took everything at face value, I'd trade mine in! =:{>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:45:10 -0400
From: Doug Sinclair <dns@interlog.com>
Subject: Esquire

In the UK, I always understood "Esquire" to be a distinguished form of
"junior", somewhat along the lines of "the young master".  My old school
still sends me mail as "Douglas Sinclair, Esq.".

Doug

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 18:11:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Another (CT) Missile question.

In mail you write:

> This is my second time doing this. I look through book 2. Missile racks
> are..., missiles cost..., missiles are expended, sandcaster canisters weigh
> 50 kg, but what does a standard missile weigh? How many can be put in a
> missile rack, stored right there in the turret, and how many can I stack in
> my hold?
>
> High Guard is also no help on this. In particular, the Kinunir class is 
> shown to have two batteries of missiles, but no mention is made of how many 
> missiles there are on the ship. On IN Form 3 (Ship's Data) There is a 
> magazine section (25b), but no mention of this in the rules.

That's ok. One of the things that had me tearing out my hair back when
the Little Black Books were new was that *nowhere* (in my copies) did
it tell you what the acceleration or duration of missiles was. The only
thing said about it was that missiles start with the same vector as the
ships that launched them. Well, duh!

As I recall, the *first* thing that ever said anything about it was the
Missiles Supplement in a fairly late JTAS. 

I suspect that this was one of those things that was so *obvious* to
the authors that it never occured to them to put it in. But it was a
major stumbling block for me. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:03:30 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Mini-TML meeting in San Francisco

Fun, isn't it?  I've even gone to Oregon to meet a fellow TML'er in Mark
Cook :)

Jesse




> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Glenn M.
> Goffin
> Sent: Thursday, June 17, 1999 10:44 AM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Cc: egh@klg.com
> Subject: Mini-TML meeting in San Francisco
>
>
> I had the pleasure of meeting Ethan Henry at the JavaOne conference in
> San Francisco yesterday.  I've been connecting faces and email addresses
> more in the last month or so than at any time in the last five years,
> and hope the trend continues.  I'll continue my practice of posting to
> the list whenever I'm going to travel somewhere, and encourage you all
> to do the same.  If you're coming to the Bay Area, there are several of
> us here who'd like to meet you.
>
> --Glenn
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:57:31 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: First In Comments

In a message dated 6/17/99 4:06:30 PM US Eastern Standard Time, 
John.Buston@tesco.net writes:

> But I *want* large & showy terra-forming projects.  
>  IMO these are more SF than the handwave.

Well, there's no reason why the handwave can't be Big Mirrors or something 
:-).

>  Note: I seem to get more planets in the hab zone if I use a more 
continuous 
> Bode
>  Sequence number (0.3 + (D6-1)/50).

Interesting notion.  The system in the rules is pretty much lifted from GURPS
Space, but it may be too grainy.  Something like what you use may work better.
I'm collecting errata for SJG and optional rules for a website I'm going to 
build.
This sounds like a good candidate.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:15:07 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Original Type C Cruiser?

Hi Gilles,

The ship that I am referencing is the "original" Type C Cruiser from the
1977 (1st ed.) Book 2.  In the 1981 (2nd ed.) Book 2 it was replaced by the
totally different Broadsword class, type C Mercenary Cruiser.  Judges Guild
put out a set of deck plans for this ship, but they were rather poor quality
and showed little imagination.  I have been wondering if anyone else had
done deck plans for the original, especially something available online.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
SwordWorlder
http://www.downport.com

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Gilles Arsenault <gilles.arsenault3@sympatico.ca>

> You are searching for deck plans for a "type c cruiser".  what is this?
> The type C cruiser that I have found is the 800t Mercenary cruiser.  GDW
> has deckplans for this ship.  They are in Adventure #7 "Broadsword".
> They also appeared in JTAS issue #8.  I hope this can help.  If its the
> ship your talking about if not let me know and i'll see what i can do.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #751
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Friday, June 18 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 752



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Disaster Response
Re: Triage
Re: Another (CT) Missile question.
Re: worlds in First In
Re: Original Type C Cruiser?
Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches
Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser
RE: Plankwell
Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches
Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Human powered radios
Offline ...
Re: Request for help
Re: Esquire
OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!
Marc Miller's new job?
Far Trader questions
Re: OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!
Re: "First we kill the lawyers!" (was Re: New Site: World Maps)
Re: Far Trader questions
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #748
Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches
Re: OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!
Far Trader Questions, second try

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:31:58 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Disaster Response

>The legal issues may still influence the crew's 
>actions. I can easily imagine that they are trained to
>follow a protocol that includes things like CYA 
>measures. The fact that these measures are pointless
>may be missed or even ignored to avoid confusing the
>protocol.

That thought crossed my mind as well. Immediately after the
crash, the uninjured maintenance and engineering crew will be
trying to assess condition of the ship. It's probably going to
take them a few hours to accept that it's really most sincerely
dead, and longer to figure out (and document) how and why. The
officers have responsibility for both ship and passengers, and they
may very well be initially more concerned about the ship.
Care of the passengers will be left to the medic and stewards.
BTW, I'm not sure how many crew there are supposed to be for
about 100 passengers.  It would save me some trouble designing
this beached whale if someone has already figured this out.

>Leadership may also be exercised from the background.
>The established or recognized leader may be 'lead' by
>an 'advisor', perhaps someone with good leadership
>and/or emergency skills. A wise person might prefer 
>this tactic to openly disputing the heirarchy.

I almost said something about establishing a cooperative
relationship as well. To get your ideas or suggestions across,
you can also find a leader who will listen to you, or as you
suggest, someone he will listen to.
          

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:32:02 -0400
From: Thad Coons <Sapience@compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Triage

>It is quite possible for a society to base it's
>triage concepts on principles quite different
>from those we use today

>The following sets of triage priorities might
>be just as workable [assuming little things like
>saving the most lives are less important than 
>saving the "most important" lives], they simply
>reflect different values.

>1) High Passengers
>2) Middle Passengers
>3) Low Passengers

>[Canonical descriptions clearly state that High Passengers
>get better service than Middle Passengers.  Canon does not
>then go on to say "except in emergencies when rules of 
>triage similar to those of the twentieth century are used."
>Therefore if you wish to be pedantic enough about it you
>could claim that the above list is "cannon."]

>or

>1) Nobles
>2) Crew
>3) Passengers

Good point, though I'd rather go with distinctions within the
major categories (possibly with some overlap) than restructuring
of them. IMTU the concept of noblesse oblige is alive and well;
the tension between preferential treatment of nobles and their
social obligations to the "less fortunate" more or less balance
out in emergencies.  Middle and high passengers do get treatment
before low passengers, on the theory that if low berthers aren't
protected by the berths, resuscitation and treatment demand
scarce medical resources and have a high failure rate. 
  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 00:09:42 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: Another (CT) Missile question.

At 06:11 PM 6/17/99 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> This is my second time doing this. I look through book 2. Missile racks
>> are..., missiles cost..., missiles are expended, sandcaster canisters weigh
>

The first time was in 1978, I owned an Apple //c, and convincing mom to buy
a modem seemed a distant dream. I doubt the TML was in operation anyway :)
Funny how in the mid to late 80's (IBM PC compatible, unix bourne shell
account on a system an area code away, 1200bps modem) I still never heard of
the TML.

>That's ok. One of the things that had me tearing out my hair back when
>the Little Black Books were new was that *nowhere* (in my copies) did
>it tell you what the acceleration or duration of missiles was. The only
>thing said about it was that missiles start with the same vector as the
>ships that launched them. Well, duh!

That was the first missile question (about a month ago). I had always assumed
1G, homing (book 2 says they are homing type missiles (along with mentioning
jump capable message torpedoes)), never run out of fuel. The spreadsheet I got
from www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller is mucho better, based on this JTAS.
"the JTAS with the Vargr on the front." is the best description I've seen.

The 6G answer seemed to be the consensus.


- -- 
I could not say I believe. I know! I have had the experience of being gripped
by something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God.
							-- Carl Jung
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:11:01 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: worlds in First In

>Just having a white dwarf star in the system doesn't mean that all the
>planets are going to be uninhabitable.  Remember that the formation of
>a white-dwarf star isn't all that violent an event -- the star experiences
>some mass loss, but no explosion of supernova magnitude.  It's more
>like a very intense solar wind.  If the red giant star is far enough away,
>a planet would probably experience nothing worse than some climatic
>effects, maybe some intense ionization of the upper atmosphere.  All
>of that would tend to stabilize once the companion star had settled
>down.
The star-that-turns-into-the-white-dwarf had best be quite a way away,
since the star will get hundreds of times brighter during its red giant phase,
which would have serious climate effects (serious in the "burn the atmosphere
off" level...)

>The arrangement of forbidden zones in the book is a deliberate
>simplification -- they're always from one-third the minimum distance
>between the two stars to three times the maximum distance.  When
Shouldn't this be four times (or ten times depending on whose
models you believe.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 00:28:26 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Original Type C Cruiser?

"C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net> asks:

>The ship that I am referencing is the "original" Type C Cruiser from the
>1977 (1st ed.) Book 2.  In the 1981 (2nd ed.) Book 2 it was replaced by the
>totally different Broadsword class, type C Mercenary Cruiser.  Judges Guild
>put out a set of deck plans for this ship, but they were rather poor quality
>and showed little imagination.  I have been wondering if anyone else had
>done deck plans for the original, especially something available online.

 None that I know of aside from the Judges Guild version (aka "the flying 
box"),
and possibly the Explorer Cruiser done by FASA in Adventure Class Ships
Volume 2.
Have any ideas? Several of us architectural types could probable whip up
something. Name your configuration of choice...

 The original Type C is more "twice as much Type-T as a Type-T" than 
the troop transport Broadsword. Why it carries two ATVs in an Unstreamlined
frame is curious, but I suspect the twin Pinnaces are supposed to handle
them...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:43:37 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> >> Tashaki (Silicon Based Humaniods)
> >> Retinae 0416 (Querion)
> >> GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw
> >
> > A silicon lifeform? Is this really possible? I know we here about it all
> > the time in Sci-Fi, but I thought silicon did not form complicated
> > enough molecules to  make this plausible.
>
> Silicones are more likely. Where many organic compounds have a
> "backbone" of carbon molecules ( -C-C-C-) with various side chains,
> silicones use a Si-O-Si-O-Si- backbone. It's the -Si-Si-Si- stuff
> that's just not varied enough.

Well, I am no scientist, so your answer leads me to more questions. Are you
saying that the Si-O sequence is silicone and the Si-Si sequence is silicon?
And that the addition of oxygen allows for more complicated molecues which
may be able to reproduce themselves? How would this effect ther biochemical
make-up? Could we consider references in Traveller and other works to silicon
based life-forms as sloppy terminology for silicone based life?

>
>
> Silicones *tend* to be more stable than analogous carbon compounds. So
> silicone based life, if it somehow arose would require higher temps,
> and possibly a more reactive atmosphere.

Would this stability result in a lower rate of genetic drift and or
degradation? Would it lead to a longer lifespan? Lack of cancer?

>
>
> One interesting take on this is in Hal Clement's "Iceworld". It has a
> species that's based on silicon or silcone (not sure which). They
> breath *sulfur*, gaseous sulfur. Obviously their preferred temp range
> is rather higher than ours. As I recall, they had to use banks of
> mirrors reflecting sunlight into a valley to make a base on *Mercury*
> tolerable!
>
> The "Iceworld" in the title is Earth... :-)

OK, I gotta find a copy of that book. Sounds like a "real" alien, and I am so
tired of funny foreheads and colored blood ala Star Trek.

<snip>

>
> Titan has a Nitrogen atmosphere too, but it seems to have retained a
> lot of hydrocarbons. Last I heard, the atmsophere was thought to be
> nitrogen with a large dose of "photochemical smog".

Alright, so what is this "photochemical smog"?

>
>
> And while the gas giants have lots of ammonia and methane, those are
> *trace* components of the mostly H2/He atmospheres.
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:36:39 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser

- -----Original Message-----
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, 17 June 1999 2:10
Subject: Re: Jaquays vs. Keith: Broadsword Class Merc Cruiser


>
>My take would be:  Depends on which shipyard built the Broadsword in
>question, for whom, and when.  After all, specific customers may demand
>specific features, license-built models may have minor differences, and
>certain features may be modified over time.
>
>Historical example:  The Grumman F4F Wildcat, a World War II US naval
>fighter, displayed all of these traits.  The first version to see
>widespread service was the F4F-3.  The French Navy ordered a version
>with a different engine (this order was taken over by the British upon
>France's surrender).  The next major variant was the F4F-4, with folding
>wings.  Eastern Aircraft (born of General Motors) built two versions for
>use on escort carriers:  The FM-1, which was essentially a copy of the
>F4F-4; and the FM-2.  The FM-2 differed in several ways from the
>Grumman-produced birds (most obvious was a different vertical
>stabilizer).
>
>Bottom line:  Go with whichever one you prefer.
>
>

Or a more radical, very noticeable difference, the two versions of the WWII
M3 tank from the US.  The Grant to the British and the Lee to the Americans
(or vice versa), same vehicle with different turrets for different users.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:39:40 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Plankwell

I dont know if you agree, but the perspective on the drawing of the
Plankwell in Fighting Ships looks wrong, perhaps it had a distorted frame?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 01:58:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>>
>> >> Tashaki (Silicon Based Humaniods)
>> >> Retinae 0416 (Querion)
>> >> GURPS Traveller: Behind The Claw
>> >
>> > A silicon lifeform? Is this really possible? I know we here about it all
>> > the time in Sci-Fi, but I thought silicon did not form complicated
>> > enough molecules to  make this plausible.
>>
>> Silicones are more likely. Where many organic compounds have a
>> "backbone" of carbon molecules ( -C-C-C-) with various side chains,
>> silicones use a Si-O-Si-O-Si- backbone. It's the -Si-Si-Si- stuff
>> that's just not varied enough.
>
> Well, I am no scientist, so your answer leads me to more questions. Are you
> saying that the Si-O sequence is silicone and the Si-Si sequence is silicon?

Long chain molecules with an Si-O repeating backbone are silicones. As
in "silicone breast implants". You don't see long chain molecules with
an Si-Si backbone. 

> And that the addition of oxygen allows for more complicated molecues which
> may be able to reproduce themselves? How would this effect ther biochemical
> make-up? Could we consider references in Traveller and other works to silicon
> based life-forms as sloppy terminology for silicone based life?

Just look up the properties of the various sorts of silicones, and
compare them with the analogous hydrocarbons. We've mostly stuck to
making plastics and oils out of them. But they seem to be capable of
the required complexity. 

>> Silicones *tend* to be more stable than analogous carbon compounds. So
>> silicone based life, if it somehow arose would require higher temps,
>> and possibly a more reactive atmosphere.
>
> Would this stability result in a lower rate of genetic drift and or
> degradation? Would it lead to a longer lifespan? Lack of cancer?

Remember, I'm assuming it needs a higher energy environment just to
react as well as carbonm compounds do at normal temperatures. So things
like degradation would likely work out to be similar.

>> One interesting take on this is in Hal Clement's "Iceworld". It has a
>> species that's based on silicon or silcone (not sure which). They
>> breath *sulfur*, gaseous sulfur. Obviously their preferred temp range
>> is rather higher than ours. As I recall, they had to use banks of
>> mirrors reflecting sunlight into a valley to make a base on *Mercury*
>> tolerable!
>>
>> The "Iceworld" in the title is Earth... :-)
>
> OK, I gotta find a copy of that book. Sounds like a "real" alien, and I am so
> tired of funny foreheads and colored blood ala Star Trek.

The aliens are dealing with earth (having accidentally made contact)
because we can supply an incredibly addictive drug. 

>> Titan has a Nitrogen atmosphere too, but it seems to have retained a
>> lot of hydrocarbons. Last I heard, the atmsophere was thought to be
>> nitrogen with a large dose of "photochemical smog".
>
> Alright, so what is this "photochemical smog"?

Same sort of stuff you find around LA. The result of UV catalyzed
reactions between hydrocarbons and nitrogen compounds. Beyond a general
statement like that, nobody really *knows* yet. Which is why they want
another probe out there.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 02:09:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED Human powered radios

In mail you write:

> In Oz, when the Royal Flying Doctor Service started (1920's?), an air
> ambulance service which covered the top end (Capricorn and up I think), most
> isolated stations had strips built and bought pedal powered radios so they
> could call in. Apparently they were rugged S.O.B.s that kept going and going
> and going (infringement of copyright unintentional), provided of course the
> pedal power was applied.
>
> I think they used the same sets for school of the air, which was the
> external schooling for outback kiddies who tuned on in for lessons then
> mailed in their homework.

Those were pretty popular up thru WWII. Mainly because back then the
*tubes* needed 45-200 volts to work. Made for trouble with batteries. 
So you got to pedal or crank a generator.

The modernm incarnation only needs a little cranking for quite a bit of
time on the air.

> Ob Traveller; I kind of had this idea that given the later tech's usage of
> computers that many worlds would simply have internet schooling, with face
> to face more expensive and consequently the domain of the wealthier
> families. Any ideas? Responses?

One of the reasons for "face to face" schooling in the first place is
to "socialize" the "little monsters". And there are classes that
require "hands on" stuff (mostly arts and "shop" classes, though lab
work for science fits too).

So you'll still have schools. Though possibly they'll just be ther labs
and shops, and the kids will only attend one day a week or something
and spend more time at home working on the stuff that does work over
the net.

On the other hand, things like excercise are apt to be more important.
So they may have to attend for Phys ed.

I expect that "distance learning" will be restricted to situations
where the population is well scattered. 

I *do* expect that computer aided tests and drills will free up a lot
of teacher time though. The computer can drill the kid on the basics,
and check the "rote learning" part of the tests. That leaves more time
for the teacher to teach the kids how to *think*. And how to solve
problems, rather than look up answers.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 99 06:10:15 +0000
From: goldendj@pcisys.net
Subject: Offline ...

If you've tried to email me or posted something for me in the past week, please 
don't expect a response right away. My laptop went toes up last Sunday, with no 
ETRO. I hope to buy a new one this weekend, but no guarantees. The only good 
thing about this is the fact that I'd burned a complete backup of all my data 
to CD only a few hours earlier
.

- ---------------------------------------------
This message was sent using Endymion MailMan.
http://www.endymion.com/products/mailman/

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 00:18:07 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Request for help

From:           	"Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Date sent:      	Wed, 16 Jun 1999 02:24:41 +1200

> I've just had a major system crash here and one of the things I lost was my 
> notes on the Luriani. If anybody copied them when I posted them here or can 
> remember roughly when I posted them, I'd really appreciate it. Thanks

My thanks to all those people who took the time to help me recover this
file. I now have a new copy (with some new updates). For a variety of reasons
I can't post the new file (which takes the Luriani into the 3rd Imperium) just
now. But I hope to be able to do so soon.

Anyhow, thanks again to everyone.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 00:18:07 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Esquire

Date sent:      	Thu, 17 Jun 1999 21:45:10 -0400
From:           	Doug Sinclair <dns@interlog.com>

> In the UK, I always understood "Esquire" to be a distinguished form of
> "junior", somewhat along the lines of "the young master".  My old school
> still sends me mail as "Douglas Sinclair, Esq.".

My understanding of Esquire was that it was originaly a courtesy title
given to the (untitled) second sons of noble families. I think it got extended
to a courtesy title for most "well to do" gentlemen without other titles some
time in the early part of this century and then by extension to most men. Its
been obsolete in England for awhile now and I don't think it every really
caught on in the "colonies". I have no idea how it came to be used by US
lawyers. I know that the French had a traditional title for lawyers (akin to
Doctor for medical practisioners), but I can't for the life of me remember what
it was or if it is still used.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:41:38 EDT
From: Diespamer@aol.com
Subject: OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!

Greetings All:

From a SF-news site that I read:

"Irons Joins Dungeons Adventure 

"Academy Award winning actor Jeremy Irons has joined the cast of the 
independent film Dungeons & Dragons, according to The Hollywood Reporter. The 
film is based on the popular role-playing game of the same name by TSR, Inc., 
and is being produced by Silver Pictures, Sweetpea Entertainment and J&M.  
Irons joins a group of Dungeons adventurers that so far includes Justin 
Whalin, Zoe McLellan, Marlon Wayans, Lee Arenberg, Thora Birch, Kristen 
Wilson, Robert Miano and Bruce Payne. Courtney Solomon is directing the film, 
which has been budgeted at approximately $35 million."

Hey, I'd give $35 million to a guy to direct a film! Especially when he 
hasn't (as best as I've found) never done it before!

Fred Kiesche
(e-mail: Diespamer@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 08:36:52 -0400
From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>
Subject: Marc Miller's new job?

From Pyramids Industry News section, dated 6/15/99

Industry Vets Join Last Unicorn

       Last Unicorn Games announced that it has retained the services of
Steve Peterson and Marc Miller, two of the adventure game industry’s
veterans as business consultants. "We’re very pleased to have these
talented, experienced gamers as part of our team," said Christian Moore,
president of Last Unicorn Games. "We expect their efforts to contribute
strongly to the continued growth of Last Unicorn Games."

       Marc Miller, designer of the Traveller RPG and co-founder of Game
Designer’s Workshop, heads up Heartland Publishing Services, which
provides production services, print buying, and other related services.
"Think of me as Last Unicorn’s virtual production department," said
Miller. "I make sure that things get produced on time, the right way,
and at a good price." Miller is also representing Last Unicorn Games in
their relationship with Simon & Schuster, their distributor for the book
trade.

       Steve Peterson, co-designer of the Champions RPG and co-founder
of Hero Games, has 13 years of experience in marketing, working with
such companies as Electronic Arts, Activision, Capcom, and others.
Recently, Steve worked with Wizards of the Coast, Inc., after their
acquisition of TSR, Inc., directing marketing efforts for TSR during and
after the transition to Seattle. "I’ll be directing Last Unicorn Games’
marketing efforts," said Peterson. "It’s tremendously exciting to be
working with such famous properties as Star Trek and Dune."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:36:15 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Far Trader questions

Sorry if these questions have already been asked.

1. in calculating WTN, do number of belts and gas giants have an effect,
if so what?

2. in calculating BTN, for an Ag world to a Na Va world, is this +1 or
+.5?

3. what changes should be made to the Distance Mod Table if the area is
limited to jump 3 (TTL12)?

Thanks
Charles

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 07:42:36 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!

Diespamer@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Greetings All:
> 
> >From a SF-news site that I read:
> 
> "Irons Joins Dungeons Adventure

snip

> Hey, I'd give $35 million to a guy to direct a film! Especially when he
> hasn't (as best as I've found) never done it before!
>

Yeah, except in Hollywood economics $35 mill _is_ what you give a beginner to
direct a film, these days. You would be astonished at how much money is
launder^h^h^h^h^h spent in H'wood these days.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:22:43 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: "First we kill the lawyers!" (was Re: New Site: World Maps)

Steve Daniels wrote:

>Does "Esquire" still carry some weight in the UK, Canada, Austrailia,
>New Zealand?  If so, what do you call a lawyer who has been knighted?
>"Sir Something, Esquire"? I hope the Esquire is dropped.

In the UK, I am equally at liberty to call myself Mr. Matt Clonfero or
Matt Clonfero, Esq. - they are identical.

If (by some miracle and poor judgement) I were ennobled, that would be
Sir Matt Clonfero. You can't use `esquire' once you've been knighted.

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:50:12 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Far Trader questions

On 06/18/99 09:36:15 you wrote:
>
>Sorry if these questions have already been asked.
>
>1. in calculating WTN, do number of belts and gas giants have an effect,
>if so what?

	No.  --  One can postulate all sorts of potential factors that could conceivably influence 
a world's trade level, but the WTN's log scale is so course the vast majority won't show up at 
all.

>2. in calculating BTN, for an Ag world to a Na Va world, is this +1 or
>+.5?

	+.5  --  The point is that the world can't grow enough food to support itself.  Passing 
this threshold is what matters.  No bonus for being a "super extra bad" place to grow food.

>3. what changes should be made to the Distance Mod Table if the area is
>limited to jump 3 (TTL12)?

	None.  Distances are calculated on the shortest *navigable* route and are generally 
assumed to be based on J-2 travel since this is the cheapest way to transport freight.  
"Navigable route" means the number of parsecs a J-2 ship would actually have to travel to get 
from one world to another.  


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
Co-Author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 12:16:17 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #748

>>>> (begin quoted material)
Whoa!  Steve might be an attorney, but Eris is not, Not, NOT!  Never
has been.  Never will be.  Not that there's anything *wrong* with
being a lawyer...<gd&r>

Eris,
    heretic yes, lawyer no
>>>> (end quoted material)
Not even a rules lawyer? <G>
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 13:06:15 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches

Wow, is my mind filled with cool ideas now.This is just the type of thread I have
been looking for.Did you see the July Discover magazine? It has an article on
microbes found two miles down in South Africa's East Driefontein gold mine. Some
of these fellows eat/breath iron, sulfur, and manganese, possibly defecating
methane, copper and gold. Some even THRIVE in radioactive stone or 200 degrees F.
I won't bother telling you all the amzing details, but with what I have said so
far it should be easy to research it on the WEB. I am planning to at least. Such
lifeforms make for great texture in Traveller, although I doubt they would be on
an encounter chart, heh heh.

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 17:10:10 -0700
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!

At 09:41 AM 6/18/99 -0400, you wrote:
<snip>
>The
>film is based on the popular role-playing game of the same name by TSR, Inc.,
>and is being produced by Silver Pictures, Sweetpea Entertainment and J&M.
<snip>
Well, let's see if Sweetpea can do better with D&D than with T4.


Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
                       -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:25:37 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Far Trader Questions, second try

Sorry if these questions have already been asked. second try is if it
did not get through as I have not recieved a Digest today

1. in calculating WTN, do number of belts and gas giants have an effect,

if so what?

2. in calculating BTN, for an Ag world to a Na Va world, is this +1 or
+.5?

3. what changes should be made to the Distance Mod Table if the area is
limited to jump 3 (TTL12)?

Thanks
Charles

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #752
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 19 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 753



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Current Computer tech revisited
RE: Mini-TML meeting in San Francisco
Re: Original Type C Cruiser?
RE: Another (CT) Missile question
Re: Far Trader questions
Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches
Albedo
Net Schooling
Re: Net Schooling
Re: OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!
Re: worlds in First In
Re: Another (CT) Missile question.
Re: Far ports and security
Shipping stuff
Re: TL Uplift
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Far ports and security
Re: Lawyer season
HIWG CD - various comments
Re: HIWG CD - various comments
Re: Planetary Dynamics (was:Far ports and security)
BITS Website update 19 June 99
Re: The Uplift Question 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:38:00 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Current Computer tech revisited

I saw this in the news today:

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9906/15/supercomp.idg/

It is a massively parallel 'hypercompuer' that reconfigures itself on
the fly to optimize instruction processing.

An interesting approach, and if the hype in the article is to be
believed, it would be one king hell of a PC...


- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:41:06 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Mini-TML meeting in San Francisco

> From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
 
> Fun, isn't it?  I've even gone to Oregon to meet a fellow TML'er in Mark
> Cook :)

I was recently at a sake tasting in San Francisco and some excellent
sake made by Griffith Frost's company in Oregon (Momosawa?).  It might
be a nice shooting and drinking trip to make -- and the places are far
enough apart (2+ hrs) that there would be a very long break between the
shooting and the drinking.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 21:08:23 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Original Type C Cruiser?

It seems to me that the "flying box" would be a very common design because
it should be cheap and quick to build.  I also envision hundreds of minor
variations.  My concern is that there is probably the same disparity in the
JG deck plans of it as have been found in other deck plans of that vintage.
When we go to calculate "how much deck will fit in these deck plans" we will
find the missing mass of the universe.  The stats are fine and the exterior
view that JG had is fine, but their interior layout and detail leave much to
be desired.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <GypsyComet@aol.com>
> Have any ideas? Several of us architectural types could probable whip up
> something. Name your configuration of choice...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 19:26:35 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Another (CT) Missile question

 Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> writes:

>"This is my second time doing this. I look through book 2.
>Missile racks are..., missiles cost..., missiles are
>expended, sandcaster canisters weigh 50 kg, but what does
>a standard missile weigh? How many can be put in a missile
>rack, stored right there in the turret, and how many can I
>stack in my hold?"

From SS3  - Missiles in Traveller

Missile Canisters are 15cm Diameter by 1m long, with a max mass of 50kg.
Any heavier and the missile cannot go in a standard canister for launch. 3
missiles ready max (in 3 racks) per turret, with a further 12 more stored
below.

Will have another look later to see cost etc details.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 20:46:50 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Far Trader questions

Jim MacLean wrote:

<snip>
>>3. what changes should be made to the Distance Mod Table if the area
is
>>limited to jump 3 (TTL12)?
>
>        None.  Distances are calculated on the shortest *navigable*
route
>and are generally
>assumed to be based on J-2 travel since this is the cheapest way to
>transport freight.
>"Navigable route" means the number of parsecs a J-2 ship would actually

>have to travel to get
>from one world to another.

Just wondering about the info only mod, I had thought that it went by
J4.

Thanks, and sorry for the second post

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 19:04:33 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Aliens of the Spinward Marches

Well, I have looked all over the Discover Online website, but apparently the article
I was mentioning last post is to recent to be posted there. After further searching
I have found where one can read about the research, check out
http://geo.princeton.edu/geomicrobio/ for a real fascinating read. I am sure this
will inspire discussion on xenobiology on this list, and I hope some of you take the
time to do a little reading there, then post comments, etc. We are talking microbes
that eat and/or breathe iron, sulfur, cobalt, even uranium. Wild!

again:
http://geo.princeton.edu/geomicrobio/
Trippy stuff. Can't wait to hear your opinions on this.

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 23:14:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Albedo

>>
>> Book 6: Scouts was like that too.  I ended up setting the temperature and
>> calculating backwards to the albedo, and sometimes just changing the star
>> type when I couldn't get things working out.
>
>I thought albedo was determined by atmospheric density and make-up. Can
>you really
>tweak it at will without explaining it away as a technological
>modification? That
>would add a little more "flavor" to star systems, IMHO.

Albedo, simply put, is merely a measure of what percentage of incomeing
energy is reflected back. Any major surface coloration changes will affect
albedo. Any changes in atmospheric make up can change albedo (although not
all will). Changes in hydrographics will affect overall albedo.

in the RW, the US has significantly changed the albedo of nearly half a
continent... going from dark forests to light croplands, and other large
scale changes to the geoforms... like massive runs of black asphalt,
massive ammounts of concrete, etc. Not to mention the hoover dam...

One thing I don't remember specifically is what range of EM albedo is
normally measured in. (ISTR it being visible, near UV and Near IR, BIMBW).

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 23:14:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Net Schooling

>I think they used the same sets for school of the air, which was the
>external schooling for outback kiddies who tuned on in for lessons then
>mailed in their homework.
>
>Ob Traveller; I kind of had this idea that given the later tech's usage of
>computers that many worlds would simply have internet schooling, with face
>to face more expensive and consequently the domain of the wealthier
>families. Any ideas? Responses?
>
Currently, the State of Alaska (USofA) does allow some internet-delivered
coursework. Currently, if memory serves, it is entirely private-school
driven. (There is a nasty (and quiet) lawsuit about using state provided
computers for parochial school originated classes....)

I don't see the abolishment of schools, however... the pattern here seems
more likely: a single teacher, supervising 20-40 kids, who do coursework in
a lab situation. At least for the higher elementary grades and up. Probably
much more individual attention for lower grades of elementary, as they
learn the skills needed for the distance delivery methods.

Ob Trav, IMTU, the education systems are world-dependant... a minimal
curriculum is mandated by the imperial gov't, along with the "Citizen"
exam. The IMoEd comes in and administers it once per cycle to 17yo
students, and it covers imperial history, sophont's rights, and basic
mathematics (4 function), as well as some minor odd bits about the
nobility, the Imperial Civil Service, etc. There is also a vocational
aptitude battery... this test is also used for determining draft status.
Then again, IMTU, there is a distinction between Citizen and Subject...

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 02:36:07 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Net Schooling

- -----Original Message-----
From: William F. Hostman <aramis@gci.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Friday, June 18, 1999 11:16 PM
Subject: Net Schooling


>Ob Trav, IMTU, the education systems are world-dependant... a minimal
>curriculum is mandated by the imperial gov't, along with the "Citizen"
>exam. The IMoEd comes in and administers it once per cycle to 17yo
>students, and it covers imperial history, sophont's rights, and basic
>mathematics (4 function), as well as some minor odd bits about the
>nobility, the Imperial Civil Service, etc. There is also a vocational
>aptitude battery... this test is also used for determining draft status.
>Then again, IMTU, there is a distinction between Citizen and Subject...


With a system like the one you're talking about, you might be interested in
doing some research into the Chinese civil service examination system. It's
really kind of interesting.

It was invented during the Han dynasty, in the first century A.D. If I
remember correctly, the exam focused on the teachings of Confucious
initially. As time progressed, more general civil service segments were
added as well. The training was expensive and time-consuming, and for
centuries it was a mark of status for a family to have at least one child
involved in the process. Later, during the Song dynasty, the exam was broken
up into several segments, and many more people were able to participate
thanks to the development of printing. The exam was broken up into three
different phases. Completion of the first two long phases guaranteed that
the exam taker would be a "white collar" worker for the rest of his life,
and excluded him from corporal punishment. The final segment was only held
at certain times and in certain places throughout the Chinese empire.

I think that such an example would be especially useful to you, since you
envision a distinct division between the "subject" and "citizen" classes.
It's interesting to note that elements of the Chinese system filtered to
Europe (via the Jesuits who were extremely impressed with the system) and to
a large extent is the precursor and model for all civil service exams in the
current day.

My only problem with your method is the expense. Why test everybody across
the Imperium when the potential Imperial labor pool is so small compared to
the population? You've got the Imperial bureaucracy, but that pool's going
to be small in relation to the total population since the Imperium has a
hands-off approach to member worlds. According to canon the Imperium doesn't
have a huge ground-pounding army, so, again, there's no reason to pay the
expense to test the entire Imperium. The Imperial Navy is an amazing "force
multiplier," even with the traditional low-level of automation in the
Traveller universe. Again, I can't really imagine the need to test everyone
for so few jobs.

It seems to me that the Imperial mindset would work in the opposite
direction: get information about a planet's "best and brightest" and then
send for them to be tested on the subsector level. Ultimately, even then
there'd be more warm bodies than jobs needing to be filled (IMHO)... of
course the megacorporations might stick their noses in and get second
choice, or "headhunt" the most qualified for Imperial service.

Just an observation, not an attack.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
Looking for other Traveller players in your area?
Looking to run a PBEM game? Check out:
http://www.pil.net/~semo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 02:38:02 -0400
From: Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>
Subject: Re: OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!

Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com> sez,
><snip>
>>The
>>film is based on the popular role-playing game of the same name by TSR, Inc.,
>>and is being produced by Silver Pictures, Sweetpea Entertainment and J&M.
><snip>
>Well, let's see if Sweetpea can do better with D&D than with T4.

It's obvious that Sweetpea was never really interested in Traveller the
*Game*, but only in Traveller the *Property*: a ready-made sci-fi universe
onto which any daft Hollywood plotline could be bolted willy-nilly; with
lots of potential for spinning off associated merchandise.

I'm fairly amazed that their D&D production has attracted the interest of
an actor with the stature and ability of Jeremy Irons. I'll be even more
astounded if the movie ever gets made  (though with Irons on board, they
might actually swing the financing). And I'll be knocked flat if the film
actually turns out to be any good.

But will they hire Chris Foss to do the poster? ;)

Best,

 + GMG +

   ------------------------Glenn Grant------------------------
                         <neo@total.net>
    "Sex times Technology equals The Future." -- J.G. Ballard

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 01:09:05 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re: worlds in First In

>The star-that-turns-into-the-white-dwarf had best be quite a way away,
>since the star will get hundreds of times brighter during its red giant phase,
>which would have serious climate effects (serious in the "burn the atmosphere
>off" level...)

How far? How many AU's?  What would be the effects if this didn't happen?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 02:36:42 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Another (CT) Missile question.

Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com> writes:
>That was the first missile question (about a month ago). I had always assumed
>1G, homing (book 2 says they are homing type missiles (along with mentioning
>jump capable message torpedoes)), never run out of fuel. The spreadsheet I got
>from www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller is mucho better, based on this JTAS.
>"the JTAS with the Vargr on the front." is the best description I've seen.
>
>The 6G answer seemed to be the consensus.

Funny how just after I mentioned "the JTAS with the Vargr on the front." I
also posted the material from Mayday related to it, and the SS3 material.

They should be in the last four weeks digests.

I also posted the JTAS No. - 21 IIRC

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 08:43:21 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Far ports and security

> Well, albedo involves a number of factors. For example, a small random
> fluctuation in albedo (say from cloud cover, or upper atmosphere dust)
> can result in a runaway effect. 
> 
> More light gets reflected, planet gets cooler, more snow falls (and
> *stays* through much of the summer), resulting in more light being
> reflected. It's self-reinforcing until some factor breaks it. 
> 

I wrote a BASIC program that generates solar systems around 1989 but had
some trouble with determining a realistic range of surface
temperatures.  Could you give me a run-down list of items that affect
surface temp and the amount of effect they have?
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:44:29 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Shipping stuff

Greetings sophonts,

OK, we know that on a Main Route (G:FT) we get literally billions of tons
of trade per year.  On a non-Ag/Ag paired route, this will amount to many
millions of tons of foodstuffs going out from the Ag world, presumably in
bulk freighters, simiar to real-world grain ships.

What comes back ?

There's no way that a non-Ag world, even an Industrial one, can fill the
hold of a returning freighter with enough sellable cargo.

Take, for example, Rhylanor and Porozlo trading with Belizo, three parsecs
away.  Two non-Ag worlds with a high population trading with a low-pop ag
world, for a combined BTN total of 18 into Belizo, and 9 into the other two
worlds.  What could either of the former worlds produce, in what sort of
volumes, that the latter would want ?

Belizo does not need up to 10 billion dtons of processed goods a year, it
won't use them.  The Mcorps that presumably run the ships, even if they are
"merely" large corps, would want to put as much into their holds as
possible for the return trip to Belizo.  Makes sense.  An empty ship makes
you no money.  Bit of a quandry.

The one thing I can think of, is sh*t.  Nearly 30 billion people on two
relatively small worlds produce a great deal of waste.  If they're at all
environmentally concious, they probably don't want to pump it all into the
oceans.  You could ship that back for treatment.  This could involve
turning it into fertilizer, or even some sort of useful industrial product.

Anyone out there have any ideas on this ?

Just a thought.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:44:37 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: TL Uplift

On 15/6/99, Jeff said :

>Actually, you're quite correct.  It perhaps would have been a bit
>more accurate to say that the _progression_ from TL to TL seems
>to assume yadda yadda yadda.  But even if I'm way off base on
>that as well (I don't think so, though), the Uplift Question
>still stands - without importing material or finished goods, only
>knowledge, how do you go about doing a tech uplift as indicated?

Give the people a means to mass-produce copies of the written word and
diagram.  Let them do the rest.  

If you want to, give them a kick start in areas they know little of.  Metal
working, mining, medical knowledge, basic scientific and principles,
mathematics, that sort of thing.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 11:38:46 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

David Healey wrote:

> Greetings sophonts,
>
> OK, we know that on a Main Route (G:FT) we get literally billions of tons
> of trade per year.  On a non-Ag/Ag paired route, this will amount to many
> millions of tons of foodstuffs going out from the Ag world, presumably in
> bulk freighters, simiar to real-world grain ships.
>
> What comes back ?
>
> There's no way that a non-Ag world, even an Industrial one, can fill the
> hold of a returning freighter with enough sellable cargo.
>
> Take, for example, Rhylanor and Porozlo trading with Belizo, three parsecs
> away.  Two non-Ag worlds with a high population trading with a low-pop ag
> world, for a combined BTN total of 18 into Belizo, and 9 into the other two
> worlds.  What could either of the former worlds produce, in what sort of
> volumes, that the latter would want ?
>
> Belizo does not need up to 10 billion dtons of processed goods a year, it
> won't use them.  The Mcorps that presumably run the ships, even if they are
> "merely" large corps, would want to put as much into their holds as
> possible for the return trip to Belizo.  Makes sense.  An empty ship makes
> you no money.  Bit of a quandry.
>
> The one thing I can think of, is sh*t.  Nearly 30 billion people on two
> relatively small worlds produce a great deal of waste.  If they're at all
> environmentally concious, they probably don't want to pump it all into the
> oceans.  You could ship that back for treatment.  This could involve
> turning it into fertilizer, or even some sort of useful industrial product.
>
> Anyone out there have any ideas on this ?

Well, you do have to remember that a world is a closed system.  It doesn't just
magically produce stuff, it merely converts what is present into a usuable
form.  In the case of an ag world, carbon dioxide and water being turned into
sugar at its simplest form.  If you don't return the carbon and hydrogen to the
planet (in the form of waste) eventually the ecosystem will break down.
Likewise, if you bleed off all that oxygen through photosynthesis, and you
don't have something to convert it back into CO2, eventually, you'll get
dangerous levels of O2 out there.  A sustainable ag world would essentially
sell chemical energy.  You must deliver raw materials which the ag world would
convert into chemical energy for you.  The industrial world would use the
energy to produce work and return the expended chemical energy delivery system
to the ag world for recharging.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 12:22:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Far ports and security

>Robert Prior wrote:
>> Book 6: Scouts was like that too.  I ended up setting the temperature and
>> calculating backwards to the albedo, and sometimes just changing the star
>> type when I couldn't get things working out.
>
>I thought albedo was determined by atmospheric density and make-up. Can
>you really
>tweak it at will without explaining it away as a technological
>modification? That
>would add a little more "flavor" to star systems, IMHO.

You're thinking greenhouse.

Albedo is how much light reflects. You can tweak this by changing the
ground cover, and the factor you use for clouds (which is 40-80%, IIRC).

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 02:51:41 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Lawyer season

On 17/6/99, Bloo said :

>Does "Esquire" still carry some weight in the UK, Canada, Austrailia,
>New Zealand?  If so, what do you call a lawyer who has been knighted?
>"Sir Something, Esquire"? I hope the Esquire is dropped.

I was always under the belief that it was used by the descendents of a
knight.  Certainly, that's the version of events given to me by one who
claims the title.  As to it being a legal title, I've heard of no
Australian legal people using it in that context.  

>Would there be a title, or title suffix, for members of the Imperial Bar?
>What would the Vilani equivalent be?

Lunch ?

Dave
Who claims no title other than "Bloody Operator !!"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 13:30:10 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: HIWG CD - various comments

	First off, I've got a couple of them left.

	Secondly, I've noticed the minor copyright problem caused by the 
posting of some modified files without permission. First note that all the 
material on the CD is copyright (by someone), so please ask first before 
posting the material elsewhere, odds are very good that permission will be 
granted in most cases.

	Thirdly, I'm aware of at least some of the graphics problems with 
some of the files. This is one area that will be drastically improved in the 
next version (more formats provided, including at least some vector format or 
formats, bad files removed or replaced where possible). And hopefully more of 
them.
	Also more of the files will be HTML'ed and maybe the start of an 
index included.

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 14:38:55 -0400
From: Jory Earl <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: HIWG CD - various comments

Kagehira@aol.com wrote:
> 
>         First off, I've got a couple of them left.
> 
>         Secondly, I've noticed the minor copyright problem caused by the
> posting of some modified files without permission. First note that all the
> material on the CD is copyright (by someone), so please ask first before
> posting the material elsewhere, odds are very good that permission will be
> granted in most cases.
> 
>         Thirdly, I'm aware of at least some of the graphics problems with
> some of the files. This is one area that will be drastically improved in the
> next version (more formats provided, including at least some vector format or
> formats, bad files removed or replaced where possible). And hopefully more of
> them.
>         Also more of the files will be HTML'ed and maybe the start of an
> index included.
> 
> Bryan


How much ya askin?
- -- 
___________________________________________________________
 J-Man
 ICQ# 2843475
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.
 Email : j-man@iname.com
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/
___________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 12:06:59 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Dynamics (was:Far ports and security)

Robert Prior wrote:

> >Robert Prior wrote:
> >> Book 6: Scouts was like that too.  I ended up setting the temperature and
> >> calculating backwards to the albedo, and sometimes just changing the star
> >> type when I couldn't get things working out.
> >
> >I thought albedo was determined by atmospheric density and make-up. Can
> >you really
> >tweak it at will without explaining it away as a technological
> >modification? That
> >would add a little more "flavor" to star systems, IMHO.

I meant Tech mods would add flavor, reading this I can see I was not clear.

>
>
> You're thinking greenhouse.

You're right I was. Silly me. I don't have B6:Scouts (yet), does it cover
greenhouse effects as well?

>
>
> Albedo is how much light reflects. You can tweak this by changing the
> ground cover, and the factor you use for clouds (which is 40-80%, IIRC).

Right, it's all coming back to me now, and there have been other good posts on
this topic. 40-80% what? Coverage of planet? Reflection of light?  What
determines the range? I get the feeling you mean reflection, and that this
would be governed by average percentage cloud cover. Hydrographics would affect
this too, right? Polar caps as well? Percentage industrialization? Are albedo
and greenhouse complimentary? I mean do their factors affect one another? Is
there some golden ratio between the two?

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 20:57:37 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: BITS Website update 19 June 99

BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)

...is happy to announce that the latest version of Rob Prior's 'GURPS
Traveller Shipyard' program is available. This starship design software for
MacOS now includes the modules from GT, Star Mercs, Far Trader and First In
as standard options, in addition to the custom module section.

A demo version may be downloaded from the BITS websites' Products page.
Existing users are entitled to a free upgrade to the latest version.

http://www.bits.org.uk/   and select the products page.

Dom (BITS webmaster)



- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 00:36:19 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question 

This is getting somewhat long-winded, I'll do some liberal snipping of 
content, and try to summarise.

For those who haven't killed the thread, the debate was about whether TL was a 
definition of local availability (CT/Megatraveller) or local production (GT 
and to a certain extent CT). If it only determines local production, to what 
extent might higher TL goods be available?

Jim, as far as I can understand it, your position as co-designer of the GT 
model is that higher TL goods are available on demand (maybe through mail 
order) but that the low income of such low TL worlds militates against such 
demand, so that such goods are still not pervasive.

My take on this is that, 
a) in the past and depending on YTU, Traveller players have been subject to 
availability constraints.
Removing those constraints, albeit with ordering delays, etc., changes the 
"flavour" of the universe. This is irrelevant of any economic argument.
b) from an economic point of view, having established that demand is 
necessarily low, many organisations may not partake in the supply of goods 
from high TL worlds to low TL worlds, and this militates against easy 
availability full stop.
c) development of markets on low TL worlds is further slowed by lack of 
supporting infrastructure for (possibly) distribution, support and supply of 
corequisite goods & services. Granted, increases in demand my result in 
development of supporting infrastructure, but this requirement acts as an 
additional barrier or brake.
d) therefore, and probably this does not matter anyway, there is no large 
scale (definitions below) conveyance of very high TL goods (an arbitrary limit 
would be two levels above the target TL, which fits the Book 3 discussion on 
this) and one-off orders might be satisfied by either smaller (single or 
several ship) lines at a premium, or the traveller equivalent of FedEx. Note 
that private FedEx type organisations also subject to point c) above, and this 
in turn may mean that demand may not be serviced by any delivery mechanism.
e) but, given there are worlds with low GWPs AND which cannot support 
themselves in the supply of life essentials, there must be economically viable 
large scale (defs below) freight services of life essentials.

I hasten to add that this is my opinion.

Responses to specific points:

> >- under the Pax Imperia, they can't run [ standing forces ] anyway. If they did need a 
> >standing army, and given the way that Imperial period warfare seems to work, 
> >they'd better build a local armaments infrastructure which can be sustained 
> >while the world is under blockade.
> 
> I don't think the above is canonical.  My understanding is that worlds are definitely 
> allowed to have their own planetary army and navy.  Whether they do or not again probably 
> depends on their wealth.
> 
They're allowed to run their own army but I don't believe they're allowed to 
use them against each other. So worlds in the imperial core are probably not 
going to run large armies unless they are (literally) balkanised.

[ I said that large scale freight of life essentials was less risky than it is 
today, since the likely price at the target was more predictable ]
> 
> First, what's important is not volatility compared to 20thCen Terra, but volatility 
> relative to other goods in the 3I.  Second, I don't see how any of the differences you state 
> below are going to greatly change the volatility of commodities.  Third, commodities are 
> volatile precisely because they are often necessary raw materials (like food) for which demand 
> does not change much with a change in price.  This is called inelastic demand.  Furthermore, 
> supply is often quite inelastic as well (eg. the farmer who planted the crop a year ago is going 
> to harvest it almost regardless of the price).  When you combine these two factors, a sudden 
> change in demand (supply) will greatly change the price because suppliers (demanders) cannot 
> easily change their production (consumption) to match changed conditions.
> 
Er, I was also once an economics undergraduate. Food prices at the commodity 
level are subject to medium to long term speculative influences based on 
harvest predictions and on over/underproduction variables which aren't obvious 
at planting time. And of course to variations in demand. In my *opinion*, 
local (ie local to the supplying world ) prices for such goods will be as 
volatile as they are today, depending on the TL of the world (assuming higher 
TL worlds can iron out some of the risk factors in agricultural production).

Again in my opinion, given the shipping delay, and the inelastic demand at the 
target world, someone shipping such goods has alot of information to aid in 
deciding whether to go ahead, and the extent to which the price can be 
determined, ie they can't change production to match conditions, but they can 
decide whether to ship or not, at least against a 2 week planning cycle. And 
since there are not that many Ag worlds around, they can switch supply between 
markets based on their knowledge of price.

So although mass freight of essentials (and the business behind it) is 
probably not the highest-premium activity, per tonne of good, it is a fairly 
safe one.

> >- the really big economies generate so much demand, and interstellar shipping is so relatively 
> expensive, that large scale export becomes uneconomic. Most of production by the large 
> industrial economies is probably for the domestic market.
> 
> 	Most production by the large industrial economies _is_ for the domestic market, but this 
> has nothing to do with whether large scale exports are uneconomic.  BTW, you really need to be 
> more clear what you mean by "large scale."  Large scale compared to Glisten's economy?  Or large 
> scale compared to Asteltine's economy?  Glisten's total trade is only about 1% of its GWP, but 
> total trade is 84% of Asteltine's GWP.  
Sorry. My (grossly oversimplified) definitions:
large scale - sufficient to support general availability, or availability on 
demand of goods
medium scale - sufficient to satisfy a single large order
small scale - one off items of business

> 
> >What I'm stumbling towards is that the weakness and size of the smaller markets, and of local 
> infrastructure, militates against large scale freight. On the other hand, there must be an 
> economic system which allows for low value essential goods (essential 
> >being food, some medicine and life support) to be transferred on a large scale in order to 
> support these worlds. 
> 
> 	You're arguing both sides of it now.  You're saying on the one hand large scale freight 
> doesn't happen because the economies of outlying worlds are too small, but on the other hand 
> large scale freight must happen because we know some worlds depend on it.  

Yes, I said I was stumbling :-). But my position was that 
- - there should be no large scale freight of high TL goods from high TL worlds 
to low TL worlds, under the definitions set out just above.
- - However there must be large scale freight of life essentials to worlds which 
cannot produce them locally (including the poorer low TL worlds)
- - There may also be large scale freight of life essentials and raw materials 
from low TL worlds to industrial worlds, given that these worlds are probably 
using more of certain items than they can produce locally. However in the case 
of raw materials it may be cheaper to mine other worlds in the same system 
rather than engage in interstellar trade.

> 	I think the answer comes in the definition of "large scale."  From the POV of Glisten, 
> there is no large scale freight because the outlying worlds economies are too small to demand a 
> significant fraction of Glisten's economic output.  From the POV of the outlying worlds, large 
> scale trade does happen because big worlds like Glisten produce many things they can't live 
> without and imports from those worlds are large relative to their local economies.

You're right. I should have made it clear that I was focussing on the specific case of moving high TL goods to low TL worlds.

Rgds
Mark

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #753
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 20 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 754



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Another (CT) Missile question.
Re: OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!
Re: "First we kill the lawyers!" (was Re: New Site: World Maps)
Re: Shipping stuff
Re : Current Computer Technology
Re: shipping stuff
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Superluminal Mesons
GURPS: Trav questions
Re: Digest #748
Re: GURPS: Trav questions
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: GURPS: Trav questions
Re: Shipping stuff
small 'site update
Gearhead Question (Slightly OT)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 13:36:33 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: Another (CT) Missile question.

At 02:36 AM 6/19/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com> writes:
>Funny how just after I mentioned "the JTAS with the Vargr on the front." I
>also posted the material from Mayday related to it, and the SS3 material.
>
>They should be in the last four weeks digests.

Ahh... just found it. It is the vagaries of renaming subjects that got me,
one was 'PDL' thread, the other was 'I like missiles'. Just to confuse me.
Thanks.

- -- 
I could not say I believe. I know! I have had the experience of being gripped
by something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God.
							-- Carl Jung
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:47:46 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!

Glenn Grant writes:
>>The
>>film is based on the popular role-playing game of the same name by TSR,
Inc.,
>>and is being produced by Silver Pictures, Sweetpea Entertainment and J&M.
><snip>
>Well, let's see if Sweetpea can do better with D&D than with T4.

   Given that they were originally suppose to be a film production company,
one can only hope...

>It's obvious that Sweetpea was never really interested in Traveller the
>*Game*, but only in Traveller the *Property*: a ready-made sci-fi universe
>onto which any daft Hollywood plotline could be bolted willy-nilly; with
>lots of potential for spinning off associated merchandise.

   Actually the people they "hired" were suppose to take care of the game
"thing", including the writing and the management--they never were suppose
to be in a position to have to run a game company.

>I'm fairly amazed that their D&D production has attracted the interest of
>an actor with the stature and ability of Jeremy Irons. 

   Err...I wouldn't exactly say "stature" given that he hasn't had a hit
movie in some time.  Actors do movies on occasion to make Porsche payments
afterall, or just to get their face on screen.  Given the budget of this
production and the subject nature, we are not talking about an 'A' movie,
nor are we talking about something with serious artistic merit that would
rate a name actor working for a lot less.  No, I'd say he's doing this one
just to keep his name visible.

>I'll be even more astounded if the movie ever gets made  (though with Irons 
>on board, they might actually swing the financing). And I'll be knocked flat 
>if the film actually turns out to be any good.

   I predict a brief appearance in a multiplex in Torrance, California
followed by an immediate release on video.  It may even make the money back
that was put into producing it if they can dupe WotC to sell the videos
through their distributors.  Naturally I would expect that Mr. Irons would
appear at GenCon for a special appearance/video launch celebration if that
is the case.

>But will they hire Chris Foss to do the poster? ;)

   Only if he can recycle more of the stuff he did back in 1978--there were
times I wondered if he even produced *any* new art for IG.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:58:39 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: "First we kill the lawyers!" (was Re: New Site: World Maps)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Saturday, 19 June 1999 1:13
Subject: Re: "First we kill the lawyers!" (was Re: New Site: World Maps)


>Steve Daniels wrote:
>
>>Does "Esquire" still carry some weight in the UK, Canada, Austrailia,
>>New Zealand?  If so, what do you call a lawyer who has been knighted?
>>"Sir Something, Esquire"? I hope the Esquire is dropped.
>
>In the UK, I am equally at liberty to call myself Mr. Matt Clonfero or
>Matt Clonfero, Esq. - they are identical.
>
>If (by some miracle and poor judgement) I were ennobled, that would be
>Sir Matt Clonfero. You can't use `esquire' once you've been knighted.
>

In Aussie, it was common enough for male school children to have Esquire
tagged onto their names, but usually in the fashion your mother uses your
full name when you are in some kind of trouble (James Warren Mark Marmaduke
Thistlethorn*!  Come here right this minute young man!), at least, as I
recall it.  I do remember education correspondence having Esquire attached
to my name once also?

*Fictional name, my apologies to any real James Warren Mark Marmaduke
Thistlethorn, living or dead, should they have really been lumbered with
such a cumbersome name not of their choosing.

Otherwise, I don't believe it caught on to well Downunder, but I know it was
once used under certain circumstances :^)

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 16:40:50 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

On 19/6/99, Joe Pettit said :

>Well, you do have to remember that a world is a closed system.  It doesn't
just
>magically produce stuff, it merely converts what is present into a usuable
>form.  In the case of an ag world, carbon dioxide and water being turned into
>sugar at its simplest form.  If you don't return the carbon and hydrogen
to the
>planet (in the form of waste) eventually the ecosystem will break down.
>Likewise, if you bleed off all that oxygen through photosynthesis, and you
>don't have something to convert it back into CO2, eventually, you'll get
>dangerous levels of O2 out there.  A sustainable ag world would essentially
>sell chemical energy.  You must deliver raw materials which the ag world
would
>convert into chemical energy for you.  The industrial world would use the
>energy to produce work and return the expended chemical energy delivery
system
>to the ag world for recharging.

Yeah, OK.  I accept that worlds *should* be a closed system, and
realistically, one billion dtons outgoing a year probably is not going to
make a great deal of difference to a complete world system.

What I was sort of getting at, leaving aside the bio/chem issue, is would
it be seen as realistic for bulk freighter to be transporting waste back
from non-Ag and industrial worlds for processing and use on Ag worlds ?  In
the case of Belizo, BtC says something about the vulcanism giving the soils
a rich texture and abundant productivity.  Ergo, would they really need the
waste products ?  3I farming techniques would surely take into account soil
productivity and its' tolerance for continued use.  That is, I'm sure that
they've worked out what crops to plant where to get the best yields, and
when to leave ground fallow.  If they have their techniques down pat, do
they really need all that fertilizer ?

Also, in the vein of your last sentence, would it be reasonable to assume
that industrial waste from primary and secondary industries is hauled back
to the point of origin of the raw materials ?  Would they haul back
chemical slag from the industrialised planets to the mining planets or
asteroid belts ?  Even in a really efficient production cycle, yer going to
have some waste products that can't be used or utilised on the
industrialised planets.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 18:52:28 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Current Computer Technology

Bruce Johnson wrote :-
<about some promising new massively parallel computing hardware>

Thanks for the URLs, Bruce.
These are amazing machines (for TL~9).
Can't wait until the stable synaptic processor line comes in...

;-)

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 00:50:47 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: shipping stuff

>From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
>Subject: Shipping stuff
>
>Greetings sophonts,

<stuff deleted>

>Take, for example, Rhylanor and Porozlo trading with Belizo, three parsecs
>away.  Two non-Ag worlds with a high population trading with a low-pop ag
>world, for a combined BTN total of 18 into Belizo, and 9 into the other two
>worlds.  What could either of the former worlds produce, in what sort of
>volumes, that the latter would want ?
>
>Belizo does not need up to 10 billion dtons of processed goods a year, it
>won't use them.  The Mcorps that presumably run the ships, even if they are
>"merely" large corps, would want to put as much into their holds as
>possible for the return trip to Belizo.  Makes sense.  An empty ship makes
>you no money.  Bit of a quandry.

This was thrashed out in the GT:FT playtest, back when G:T FT was GT:Trade
and Commerce, over the specific issue of Tarsus/Collace. In the end, it was
decided that BTN can never exceed the smaller WTN plus 5. This made it at
the bottom of p 15 of the printed version.

Therefore, in this case, it's a max BTN of 9.0, so exports from Belizio to
Rhylanor is 9 flat, or 1-500 000 dtons a year. My trusty Regency Sourcebook
says Belizio has 900 000 people, so thats about half a dton of stuff each,
or about 7 m3. Same story for Porozolo.

You calculate BTNs seperately, so it's two 9 flat BTNs, not an 18 BTN.

Incidentally, the stuff coming back wont make a big impact on the food
input of your average Porozolan. Assuming 20 billion Porozolans, the 250
000 dtons of food imports from Belizio turns into about ummm 2 kilos each ?

>
>The one thing I can think of, is sh*t.  Nearly 30 billion people on two
>relatively small worlds produce a great deal of waste.  If they're at all
>environmentally concious, they probably don't want to pump it all into the
>oceans.  You could ship that back for treatment.  This could involve
>turning it into fertilizer, or even some sort of useful industrial product.
>
>Anyone out there have any ideas on this ?
>

Yeah. Send em dirt bikes, combine harvesters and land rovers instead.

The other option is to wear the empty space coming back. If you make a
profit of Cr 2400 per jump, then it's worthwhile to carry empty space back
(the balance-of-trade issue can be solved by assuming the dominant economy
owns the production facilities on the peripheral world).

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:29:06 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

David Healey wrote:

> On 19/6/99, Joe Pettit said :
>
> >Well, you do have to remember that a world is a closed system.  It doesn't
> just
> >magically produce stuff, it merely converts what is present into a usuable
> >form.  In the case of an ag world, carbon dioxide and water being turned into
> >sugar at its simplest form.  If you don't return the carbon and hydrogen
> to the
> >planet (in the form of waste) eventually the ecosystem will break down.
> >Likewise, if you bleed off all that oxygen through photosynthesis, and you
> >don't have something to convert it back into CO2, eventually, you'll get
> >dangerous levels of O2 out there.  A sustainable ag world would essentially
> >sell chemical energy.  You must deliver raw materials which the ag world
> would
> >convert into chemical energy for you.  The industrial world would use the
> >energy to produce work and return the expended chemical energy delivery
> system
> >to the ag world for recharging.
>
> Yeah, OK.  I accept that worlds *should* be a closed system, and
> realistically, one billion dtons outgoing a year probably is not going to
> make a great deal of difference to a complete world system.
>
> What I was sort of getting at, leaving aside the bio/chem issue, is would
> it be seen as realistic for bulk freighter to be transporting waste back
> from non-Ag and industrial worlds for processing and use on Ag worlds ?  In
> the case of Belizo, BtC says something about the vulcanism giving the soils
> a rich texture and abundant productivity.  Ergo, would they really need the
> waste products ?  3I farming techniques would surely take into account soil
> productivity and its' tolerance for continued use.  That is, I'm sure that
> they've worked out what crops to plant where to get the best yields, and
> when to leave ground fallow.  If they have their techniques down pat, do
> they really need all that fertilizer ?

I'm not really talking about the fertilizer.  Plants don't actually take much out
of the soil, they feed almost entirely on water and CO2.  You've got to replenish
the those elements in a form usable by the Ag planet.  A decent form would be
alcohol CHOOH, which could be used as fuel (but what's the point with fusion
plants?)

>
>
> Also, in the vein of your last sentence, would it be reasonable to assume
> that industrial waste from primary and secondary industries is hauled back
> to the point of origin of the raw materials ?  Would they haul back
> chemical slag from the industrialised planets to the mining planets or
> asteroid belts ?  Even in a really efficient production cycle, yer going to
> have some waste products that can't be used or utilised on the
> industrialised planets.
>

Mining planets are kinda notorious for being inhospitable.  The companies come in,
strip it clean and dump any undesirable waste back there.  The ecosystem isn't
really a concern there.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 09:57:01 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Superluminal Mesons

At 03:51 PM 6/13/99 -0700, you wrote:
>>I realize that FTL in general breaks causality, but can anyone give
an
>>example of how Traveller jump drives alone can break causality in a
>>macroscopic sense? By this I mean something like being able to travel back
>>in time, meet yourself, or create objects from nothing using only jump
>>drives?
>
>FTL travel = Time travel.
>
>Simple example. With a detailed telescope, I observe what is happening now
>upon the surface of a planet. (No quibbles about pefect optics or
>atmospheric effects or uncertainty, please).
>
>Using a Jump-2 drive, I jump two parsecs away and train my telescope upon
>the planet again. Now I am observing what has happened upon the surface of
>the planet ~ six years ago. I overhear the plans to blow up a certain
>building six years in the future. I can then jump back to the planet and
>foil the plans.

	Horse hockey. There's no time travel at all involved, any more than
there is with recording something six years ago, and then replaying
it today. Neither I nor the information in question have in any way
traveled in time except in the usual "1 second per second" rate ...
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 12:41:09 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: GURPS: Trav questions

Okay, I just purchased First In, and so far I've been pretty impressed with
it. I hadn't bought any G:T books after the initial one for a couple of
reasons.

The main reason is that I get most of my RPG reviews from Pyramid and they
don't seem to make a habit of reviewing their own products... You can see
the paradox that creates for me ;)

So, if anybody with the books can tell me how useful the following books
are, I'd appreciate it:

1.) Star Mercs - First In is like an updated Book 6: Scouts. Is Star Mercs
an updated Mercenary? Is it detailed an in depth in relation to mercs in the
Imperium?

2.) Behind the Claw - Does BtC have information that might be useful to
non-Marches campaigns? In other words, is it worth buying if I will never
run a traditional Spinward Marches campaign?

3.) Aliens I: Vargr and Zhodani: Is the information on the Vargr and Zhodani
very detailed? Are the other races included fleshed out and useful in
campaigns? Is there any generic stuff on building races specifically for
Traveller, and pointers about how races interact with the Imperium?

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
Looking for other Traveller players in your area?
Looking to run a PBEM game? Check out:
http://www.pil.net/~semo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 10:10:54 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Digest #748

Chris Seamans wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Date: Thursday, June 17, 1999 10:01 AM
> Subject: Digest #748
>
> >Although I greatly enjoyed Digest #748, I didn't really
> >need 3 copies :-)  Did anybody else get bonus copies?
>
> Shhhh! Just save the extras. One day they might be collectors' items. ;)
>
> (You could probably sell them on E-Bay already!)

It is always nice to have spares in case you lose one as well.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:05:08 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Trav questions

Chris Seamans wrote:
> 
> Okay, I just purchased First In, and so far I've been pretty impressed with
> it. I hadn't bought any G:T books after the initial one for a couple of
> reasons.

> 2.) Behind the Claw - Does BtC have information that might be useful to
> non-Marches campaigns? In other words, is it worth buying if I will never
> run a traditional Spinward Marches campaign?

Well, it _is_ the Spinward Marches sourcebook, so in an OTU campaign set
somewhere else it would be not so useful. In an Non-OTU campaign, just set
somewhere else, there are several hundred worlds described in considerable
detail...just file off the names and serial numbers and they can be plonked in
just about anywhere. Same for many of the adventure seeds and plot hints. 

> 3.) Aliens I: Vargr and Zhodani: Is the information on the Vargr and Zhodani
> very detailed? Are the other races included fleshed out and useful in
> campaigns? Is there any generic stuff on building races specifically for
> Traveller, and pointers about how races interact with the Imperium?

It's detailed down to word generation tables to generate Vargr and Zhodani
words and names. There are lots of details on political and social structures
in both groups, but not a lot _explicitly_ on how they interact, these books
show how they'll act, you take that into your TU for the interaction. The
minor races are pretty good IMHO, about ten pages each for the three minors
presented, two, however, are somewhat removed from the Imperium, being
situated coreward. The Sheol, the gas giant critters, are in the Spinward Marches.

There's no generic Alien-building instructions. First In has some
race-building details, though.

ARI also has a bonus section on Psionics rules.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 11:13:38 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

David Healey wrote:

> On 19/6/99, Joe Pettit said :
>
> >Well, you do have to remember that a world is a closed system.  It doesn't
> just
> >magically produce stuff, it merely converts what is present into a usuable
> >form.  In the case of an ag world, carbon dioxide and water being turned into
> >sugar at its simplest form.  If you don't return the carbon and hydrogen
> to the
> >planet (in the form of waste) eventually the ecosystem will break down.
> >Likewise, if you bleed off all that oxygen through photosynthesis, and you
> >don't have something to convert it back into CO2, eventually, you'll get
> >dangerous levels of O2 out there.

BOOM!

>  A sustainable ag world would essentially
> >sell chemical energy.  You must deliver raw materials which the ag world
> would
> >convert into chemical energy for you.  The industrial world would use the
> >energy to produce work and return the expended chemical energy delivery
> system
> >to the ag world for recharging.
>
> Yeah, OK.  I accept that worlds *should* be a closed system, and
> realistically, one billion dtons outgoing a year probably is not going to
> make a great deal of difference to a complete world system.
>
> What I was sort of getting at, leaving aside the bio/chem issue, is would
> it be seen as realistic for bulk freighter to be transporting waste back
> from non-Ag and industrial worlds for processing and use on Ag worlds ?  In
> the case of Belizo, BtC says something about the vulcanism giving the soils
> a rich texture and abundant productivity.  Ergo, would they really need the
> waste products ?  3I farming techniques would surely take into account soil
> productivity and its' tolerance for continued use.  That is, I'm sure that
> they've worked out what crops to plant where to get the best yields, and
> when to leave ground fallow.  If they have their techniques down pat, do
> they really need all that fertilizer ?

I have found a thread I have some practical knowledge in, cool. Farming tecniques
involve fertilizer, silly! By supplamenting the soils nutritional value (for
crops) with fertilizer, you increase its tolerance to continued use, as well as
boost that seasons output. Rotating crops and leaving the ground fallow are ways
to compensate for the fact that various crops consume different nutrients in
different ratios. As far as intersteller agriculture is concerned, you may have a
demand within a region for a crop that can not be grown effectively on any Ag
worlds near enough to make distribution economically feasible unless you enrich
some worlds soil. Vulcanism does enrich soil, but we are talking grand scale
here. On a season by season basis you want mulch. It would be difficult to bring
a world with nutrient-poor soil up to Ag status, so some worlds would never be
utilized for food production, but even a fertile world could use a boost.

>
>
> Also, in the vein of your last sentence, would it be reasonable to assume
> that industrial waste from primary and secondary industries is hauled back
> to the point of origin of the raw materials ?

"Waste", or byproducts, need not be hauled to the place of origin so much as a
place of deficit in said byproduct. Perhaps back to the origin point, perhaps
further down the line.

And what about hydroponic stations in orbit in systems with no other Ag
abilities? We (3I) are high tech, aren't we?

> Would they haul back
> chemical slag from the industrialised planets to the mining planets or
> asteroid belts ?  Even in a really efficient production cycle, yer going to
> have some waste products that can't be used or utilised on the
> industrialised planets.

Waste gets spaced, right?

>
>
> Dave

Chirping Elf has once again comandeered the Hypercleats Terminal. Wheeee!
BZA

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 12:40:19 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

David Healey wrote:

> Greetings sophonts,
>
> OK, we know that on a Main Route (G:FT) we get literally billions of tons
> of trade per year.

A Major Route (BTN 10) generates 5 million dtons/year at maximum.
A 12.5 Route would generate 1 billion dtons/year at maximum.
The best the Spinward Marches do anywhere that I have found is
Rhylanor - Porozlo with a BTN of 12; 100 million - 500 million dtons/year.

With significant routes from Trin, Mora, Glisten, Lunion, and Strouden
all culminating at Rhylanor and Porozlo, you might be moving billions
of dtons/year through that area, but its not all on the same route.

Perhaps you meant to say billions in Credits/Year, which is certainly
true.


>  On a non-Ag/Ag paired route, this will amount to many
> millions of tons of foodstuffs going out from the Ag world, presumably in
> bulk freighters, simiar to real-world grain ships.
>
> What comes back ?
>
> There's no way that a non-Ag world, even an Industrial one, can fill the
> hold of a returning freighter with enough sellable cargo.

"The credit value of bilateral trade is constrained to be the same on both ends
of the route (balanced trade), but the physical dton volume can vary on either
end, since worlds may export things with different value densities.  For
instance, an industrial world might export a tiny volume of agricultural
machinery to an agricultural world and receive a huge volume of grain in
return."
GT:FT p.16

"BTN can never exceed the smaller WTN plus 5."
GT:FT p.15


> Take, for example, Rhylanor and Porozlo trading with Belizo, three parsecs
> away.  Two non-Ag worlds with a high population trading with a low-pop ag
> world, for a combined BTN total of 18 into Belizo, and 9 into the other two
> worlds.  What could either of the former worlds produce, in what sort of
> volumes, that the latter would want ?

You don't add BTNs in this way.  2 9's do not make 18.  They don't even make
9.5.

Rhylanor - Belizo: BTN 9 (6 + 4 + 0.5 = 10.5 - 1 = 9.5): 9.0 Max (4 + 5 = 9)
Credits/Yr: 1G-5G  Dtons/Yr: 100k-500k  Dtons/Week: 5k-10k

Porozlo - Belizo: BTN 9 (6 + 4 = 10 - 1 = 9): 9.0 Max (4 + 5 = 9)
Credits/Yr: 1G-5G  Dtons/Yr: 100k-500k

Totals
Credits/Yr: 2G-10G  Dtons/Yr: 200k-1M

Not so bad a picture as you initially painted.


> Belizo does not need up to 10 billion dtons of processed goods a year, it
> won't use them.  The Mcorps that presumably run the ships, even if they are
> "merely" large corps, would want to put as much into their holds as
> possible for the return trip to Belizo.  Makes sense.  An empty ship makes
> you no money.  Bit of a quandry.
>
> The one thing I can think of, is sh*t.  Nearly 30 billion people on two
> relatively small worlds produce a great deal of waste.  If they're at all
> environmentally concious, they probably don't want to pump it all into the
> oceans.  You could ship that back for treatment.  This could involve
> turning it into fertilizer, or even some sort of useful industrial product.

Perhaps in the Traveller: The Silly Era.


- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco, Inc.

http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 15:50:42 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Trav questions

- -----Original Message-----
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Sunday, June 20, 1999 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: GURPS: Trav questions


Thanks, this is just the kind of response I was looking for.

>> 2.) Behind the Claw - Does BtC have information that might be useful to

>
>Well, it _is_ the Spinward Marches sourcebook, so in an OTU campaign set
>somewhere else it would be not so useful. In an Non-OTU campaign, just set
>somewhere else, there are several hundred worlds described in considerable
>detail...just file off the names and serial numbers and they can be plonked
in
>just about anywhere. Same for many of the adventure seeds and plot hints.


Okay. I can put that on the back burner for the moment then.

>It's detailed down to word generation tables to generate Vargr and Zhodani
>words and names. There are lots of details on political and social
structures
>in both groups, but not a lot _explicitly_ on how they interact, these
books
>show how they'll act, you take that into your TU for the interaction. The
>minor races are pretty good IMHO, about ten pages each for the three minors
>presented, two, however, are somewhat removed from the Imperium, being
>situated coreward. The Sheol, the gas giant critters, are in the Spinward
Marches.


Okay, then I might pick it up and check it out eventually. Since my campaign
is set in Daibei, the information on the Zhodani and Vargr is of limited
utility. The Aslan, on the other hand are a bit more immediate and that
one's supposed to be out soon.

>There's no generic Alien-building instructions. First In has some
>race-building details, though.


Yeah. I'm slugging through First In and I'm getting a warm fuzzy feeling.
I'm very impressed so far.

>ARI also has a bonus section on Psionics rules.


Hmmm... It might be worth it just for that, unless I buy G: Psionics first.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 15:55:46 EDT
From: TDRandall@aol.com
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

Among a lot of other interesting thoughts...

Joe Pettit had said:
> productivity and its' tolerance for continued use.  That is, I'm sure that
> they've worked out what crops to plant where to get the best yields, and
> when to leave ground fallow.  If they have their techniques down pat, do
> they really need all that fertilizer ?

David Healey responded:
>And what about hydroponic stations in orbit in systems with no other Ag
>abilities? We (3I) are high tech, aren't we?

Sounds like a definite time to invoke some form of "comparative advantage"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:46:17 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: small 'site update

I've added a couple of shots that I did for "Aslan & K'kree" to my 'site,
along with an apology to the creators of the Clan Transport.  I kinda'
screwed the pooch in accuracy.  Someone else suggested that the one(s) I
created could be termed "prototypes" or "variants".  YMMV.  Unfortunately
the "prototypes" are the ones that are going to be shown in "Aslan &
K'kree".

Best,
Jesse
www.vision-forge-graphics.com
"Striving to Produce a Better Illustrated Traveller Universe"  << oops...>>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 18:13:15 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Gearhead Question (Slightly OT)

I am working on an alternative setting for a pending campaign.  Most likely
the designs will be based on FFS1 and ported to the appropriate system.  

Here is the question:  If using stutterwarp as the FTL drive, will using
artificial gravity disrupt its efficiency?

I have been unable to locate a ruling on this as written in FFS1.  It
simply states that it needs a large body to discharge near.

Thanks!

Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
     may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!" 
~Stephen Decatur

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #754
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 21 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 755



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: GURPS: Trav questions
Re: small 'site update
Re Schooling
Re: "First we kill the lawyers!"
Re: GURPS: Trav questions
Re: GURPS trav
Re: The Uplift Question
Re: Far Trader questions
Re: shipping stuff
MEDIEVAL STARSHIP LANDS! (OT and shameless)
Re: MEDIEVAL STARSHIP LANDS! (OT and shameless)
Re: GURPS: Trav questions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 23:41:45 +0100
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Trav questions

Chris Seamans wrote:

I'd preface this by saying I'm not a GURPS Traveller fan, though I've bought all
the supplements so far. In general I've found the quality high, both in terms of
content and production values. Since I'm sticking with "real" traveller they're
not as useful to me as the out of print stuff (excepting some obvious duds from
the TNE and T4 lines) but they can make for good reading. I'd prefer to see more
conversion support for CT/MT/T4 players in the material, since we're part of the
target audience (that's conversion FROM GURPS TO Traveller, not vice versa) but
I guess SJG has its priorities.

> 1.) Star Mercs - First In is like an updated Book 6: Scouts. Is Star Mercs an
> updated Mercenary? Is it detailed an in depth in relation to mercs in the
> Imperium?

Yes and yes. It's extremely similar to Mercenary in terms of the type of content
covered.

> 2.) Behind the Claw - Does BtC have information that might be useful to
> non-Marches campaigns? In other words, is it worth buying if I will never run
> a traditional Spinward Marches campaign?

It's the Spinward Marches sourcebook. Given the importance of the Marches in
recent (as of 1116) imperial history I guess it might have use outside. There
are one or two paras on every world in the marches, plus write ups of the
non-Imperial territories, on local minor races (some new) and of recent history
(ie the FFW).

> 3.) Aliens I: Vargr and Zhodani: Is the information on the Vargr and Zhodani
> very detailed?

There's more detail than the GDW alien modules, but for the Vargr less than in
the DGP Vilani & Vargr module (or it feels like less, whatever, I prefer the DGP
volume).

> Are the other races included fleshed out and useful in campaigns?

3 other races, by David Pulver - the Drakarans, the Sheol and the Clotho. The
Drakarans and the Sheol first appeared in the Space Master module Aliens and
Artifacts, which I personally find annoying. The Clotho are meant to be the
Addaxur, mentioned in earlier texts on the Zhodani. All the aliens are
interesting in several aspects but in general the writing lacks a certain
something that I can't quite put my finger on, and as a result the new aliens
don't mesh so well (IMHO). But they're usable with some work.

> Is there any generic stuff on building races specifically for Traveller, and
> pointers about how races interact with the Imperium?

No. The official answer seems to be to go to Compendium I, but my strong
recommendation is to try and get hold of (the sadly out of print) GURPS Uplift.
These will allow some generation of generic aliens, though you then have to do
the work to fit them to the Imperial background.

Also you haven't mentioned Far Trader, which is probably at the same level as
First In in terms of potential usefulness, and which I'd probably recommend
ahead of all the above (with the exception of Uplift). Plus the genuine GURPS
players also recommend Compendium II, UltraTech, UltraTech II, Vehicles, Robots
and just maybe Space if you're looking to play the game rather than glean
background. At which point you may also need GURPS Lottery Winner (not that I
haven't spent a fortune on Traveller stuff anyway).

M

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 19:05:19 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: small 'site update

I believe it's called artistic licence....

T

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 19:26:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Schooling

>My only problem with your method is the expense. Why test everybody across
>the Imperium when the potential Imperial labor pool is so small compared to
>the population? You've got the Imperial bureaucracy, but that pool's going
>to be small in relation to the total population since the Imperium has a
>hands-off approach to member worlds. According to canon the Imperium doesn't
>have a huge ground-pounding army, so, again, there's no reason to pay the
>expense to test the entire Imperium. The Imperial Navy is an amazing "force
>multiplier," even with the traditional low-level of automation in the
>Traveller universe. Again, I can't really imagine the need to test everyone
>for so few jobs.

In backwaters like the marches, it would be a pain... except that the test
proctor is probably also the local scout administrator or his appointees.

In major areas, administered by appointees from neighboring worlds...
Assuming a single individual can conduct tests for 500 students in a week
(The US ASVAB is done this way often... 2 proctors, 2 days of 5 hours each,
250 students), and shipping him cost ~Cr8000 each way, plus Cr2000 per
month wage...not too bad. If you grab from neighboring school districs,
costs drop even further... Figure roughly KCr18 per  2000 students, that's
only Cr18 per student. Or less. And with massive automation in the
classroom, such exams would be proctored by, essentially, isolating the
machines to be used from the nets after backing it up, wiping and
installing the test, running it for the students (possibly 2 or 3 shifts a
day), and then downloading the results, and wiping the machine. On major
worlds, there would be nearly constant testing (much like the testing
schedule for SAT/ACT/NTE exams); minor worlds get a proctor once or twice a
year...

Then again, IMTU, citizenship's primary benefit is the right to noble
appeal. Subjects have most of the other protections, but being able to
appeal any sentence (civil or criminal) to the local noble is quite a boon,
especially since you can appeal to HIS boss. (In writing, at own expense.
If he feels it worth a hearing, he sends an inquisitor or subpoena's you
and the prosecutor to his court.) Subject are simply going to be stuck.
Also, I figure any careers that take you off world will be once where
citizenship is essential... that protection is vital in the volatility of
the late 3I. It also gives a reason to put up with the arrogance, and
either stuffiness or partying of the nobiolity.


and as for headhunting, I figure the imperial citizen to be the most common
in off worlders... simply because the test IS NOT HARD. And, unless one
puts in 2 or more yearsof "Creditable Service" (which may not even take one
off the homeworld), the test is moot... the protections of citizens are not
for the common prole, but for the common burguoise...

don't even get me started on nobles IMTU.... too many years of divergence.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 17:48:41 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: "First we kill the lawyers!"

At 06:14 PM 1999 06 20 -0400, you wrote:
>
>Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 20 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 754
>
>
>
>(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
>All rights reserved.
>
>The following topics are covered in this digest:
>
>Re: Another (CT) Missile question.
>Re: OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!
>Re: "First we kill the lawyers!" (was Re: New Site: World Maps)
>Re: Shipping stuff
>Re : Current Computer Technology
>Re: shipping stuff
>Re: Shipping stuff
>Re: Superluminal Mesons
>GURPS: Trav questions
>Re: Digest #748
>Re: GURPS: Trav questions
>Re: Shipping stuff
>Re: Shipping stuff
>Re: GURPS: Trav questions
>Re: Shipping stuff
>small 'site update
>Gearhead Question (Slightly OT)
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 13:36:33 -0400
>From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
>Subject: Re: Another (CT) Missile question.
>
>At 02:36 AM 6/19/99 +0100, you wrote:
>>Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com> writes:
>>Funny how just after I mentioned "the JTAS with the Vargr on the front." I
>>also posted the material from Mayday related to it, and the SS3 material.
>>
>>They should be in the last four weeks digests.
>
>Ahh... just found it. It is the vagaries of renaming subjects that got me,
>one was 'PDL' thread, the other was 'I like missiles'. Just to confuse me.
>Thanks.
>
>- -- 
>I could not say I believe. I know! I have had the experience of being gripped
>by something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God.
>							-- Carl Jung
>Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1999 23:47:46 -0400
>From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Re: OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!
>
>Glenn Grant writes:
>>>The
>>>film is based on the popular role-playing game of the same name by TSR,
>Inc.,
>>>and is being produced by Silver Pictures, Sweetpea Entertainment and J&M.
>><snip>
>>Well, let's see if Sweetpea can do better with D&D than with T4.
>
>   Given that they were originally suppose to be a film production company,
>one can only hope...
>
>>It's obvious that Sweetpea was never really interested in Traveller the
>>*Game*, but only in Traveller the *Property*: a ready-made sci-fi universe
>>onto which any daft Hollywood plotline could be bolted willy-nilly; with
>>lots of potential for spinning off associated merchandise.
>
>   Actually the people they "hired" were suppose to take care of the game
>"thing", including the writing and the management--they never were suppose
>to be in a position to have to run a game company.
>
>>I'm fairly amazed that their D&D production has attracted the interest of
>>an actor with the stature and ability of Jeremy Irons. 
>
>   Err...I wouldn't exactly say "stature" given that he hasn't had a hit
>movie in some time.  Actors do movies on occasion to make Porsche payments
>afterall, or just to get their face on screen.  Given the budget of this
>production and the subject nature, we are not talking about an 'A' movie,
>nor are we talking about something with serious artistic merit that would
>rate a name actor working for a lot less.  No, I'd say he's doing this one
>just to keep his name visible.
>
>>I'll be even more astounded if the movie ever gets made  (though with Irons 
>>on board, they might actually swing the financing). And I'll be knocked
flat 
>>if the film actually turns out to be any good.
>
>   I predict a brief appearance in a multiplex in Torrance, California
>followed by an immediate release on video.  It may even make the money back
>that was put into producing it if they can dupe WotC to sell the videos
>through their distributors.  Naturally I would expect that Mr. Irons would
>appear at GenCon for a special appearance/video launch celebration if that
>is the case.
>
>>But will they hire Chris Foss to do the poster? ;)
>
>   Only if he can recycle more of the stuff he did back in 1978--there were
>times I wondered if he even produced *any* new art for IG.
>
>Regards,
>
>Harold
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 13:58:39 +1000
>From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
>Subject: Re: "First we kill the lawyers!" (was Re: New Site: World Maps)
>
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
>To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
>Date: Saturday, 19 June 1999 1:13
>Subject: Re: "First we kill the lawyers!" (was Re: New Site: World Maps)
>
>
>>Steve Daniels wrote:
>>
>>>Does "Esquire" still carry some weight in the UK, Canada, Austrailia,
>>>New Zealand?  If so, what do you call a lawyer who has been knighted?
>>>"Sir Something, Esquire"? I hope the Esquire is dropped.
>>
>>In the UK, I am equally at liberty to call myself Mr. Matt Clonfero or
>>Matt Clonfero, Esq. - they are identical.
>>
>>If (by some miracle and poor judgement) I were ennobled, that would be
>>Sir Matt Clonfero. You can't use `esquire' once you've been knighted.
>>
>
>In Aussie, it was common enough for male school children to have Esquire
>tagged onto their names, but usually in the fashion your mother uses your
>full name when you are in some kind of trouble (James Warren Mark Marmaduke
>Thistlethorn*!  Come here right this minute young man!), at least, as I
>recall it.  I do remember education correspondence having Esquire attached
>to my name once also?

My understanding was that the proper usage of "Esquire" is limited to
unmarried adult males. Now, I don't know if that's true or not, but it's
what I always heard. And a leading magazine devoted to the lifestyle of
bachelorhood is called -- Esquire. (Hugh Hefner was on its staff for a few
years before going off to start a magazine of his own, one with content
very similar to Esquire, but with the addition of certain types of
photographical essays, the nature of which I will not mention here...)  :-D



     Glenn St-Germain § Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com § http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 20:00:29 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Trav questions

- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Watson <markw@antares.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Sunday, June 20, 1999 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: GURPS: Trav questions


>the TNE and T4 lines) but they can make for good reading. I'd prefer to see
more
>conversion support for CT/MT/T4 players in the material, since we're part
of the
>target audience (that's conversion FROM GURPS TO Traveller, not vice versa)
but
>I guess SJG has its priorities.


Understandable, although even without SJG's priorities it might be a little
difficult to convert the material in a supplement across 4 slightly
different versions of Traveller.

>Yes and yes. It's extremely similar to Mercenary in terms of the type of
content
>covered.


Okay, good. I didn't get a really good look at it when I visited my FLGS
last night.

>It's the Spinward Marches sourcebook. Given the importance of the Marches
in
>recent (as of 1116) imperial history I guess it might have use outside.
There
>are one or two paras on every world in the marches, plus write ups of the
>non-Imperial territories, on local minor races (some new) and of recent
history
>(ie the FFW).


Okay. As I said in another response, this is likely going to go on the back
burner for a while. I've already got a fair amount of non-GURPS Trav stuff
and I have all of the detail on the Spinward Marches I think I'll need.

>There's more detail than the GDW alien modules, but for the Vargr less than
in
>the DGP Vilani & Vargr module (or it feels like less, whatever, I prefer
the DGP
>volume).


Thanks. I kind of wanted to know how it would stack up to the DGP material,
actually, but I don't own the DGP material so I didn't know what to ask (if
that makes any sense).

>3 other races, by David Pulver - the Drakarans, the Sheol and the Clotho.
The
>Drakarans and the Sheol first appeared in the Space Master module Aliens
and
>Artifacts, which I personally find annoying. The Clotho are meant to be the
>Addaxur, mentioned in earlier texts on the Zhodani. All the aliens are
>interesting in several aspects but in general the writing lacks a certain
>something that I can't quite put my finger on, and as a result the new
aliens
>don't mesh so well (IMHO). But they're usable with some work.


Okay, well I'll be able to see for myself when I get it, but that one's not
a huge priority for me.

>No. The official answer seems to be to go to Compendium I, but my strong
>recommendation is to try and get hold of (the sadly out of print) GURPS
Uplift.
>These will allow some generation of generic aliens, though you then have to
do
>the work to fit them to the Imperial background.


Cool. Thanks for the recommendation. I'll keep an eye out for Uplift when I
poke around for out of print material. I've already got Compendium I, but I
was just wondering if there might be detailed coverage of some specific
Traveller issues, maybe more in depth coverage on the status of "minor
races" in the Imperium, stuff like that.

>Also you haven't mentioned Far Trader, which is probably at the same level
as
>First In in terms of potential usefulness, and which I'd probably recommend
>ahead of all the above (with the exception of Uplift).

I didn't mention it because I'd already made up my mind to get it. ;)

I poked through the playtest files on Pyramid, but just never got around to
getting it when it came out. When I went shopping last night, I had
originally intended to get Far Trader but First In's world generation system
really grabbed me.

>Plus the genuine GURPS
>players also recommend Compendium II, UltraTech, UltraTech II, Vehicles,
Robots
>and just maybe Space if you're looking to play the game rather than glean
>background. At which point you may also need GURPS Lottery Winner (not that
I
>haven't spent a fortune on Traveller stuff anyway).


Hehe... Fortunately I've got all of the above, except Ultra-Tech II which I
am supposed to get as a present from somebody. I had a busy Christmas this
year ;)

Thanks muchly for the response, it was very helpful.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 20:35:32 -0500
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS trav

G: Psionics is a great resource.  AR1 however, does a couple of 
things specific to Traveller.  It corrects some errata from G:T.  It 
also goes into more detail about using Psi in a Traveller campaign.  
Still, G:Psionics is a well written book, with lots of skills, and ideas.
 
> >ARI also has a bonus section on Psionics rules.
> 
> 
> Hmmm... It might be worth it just for that, unless I buy G: Psionics
> first.


- -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."
The Traveller Book, p. 12
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089
IMTU tc+ tm tn t4+ tg++ ge(-) 3i(+) c+ au(+) as+ va+ zh+ vi+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 21:02:51 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

On 06/20/99 00:36:19 you wrote:
>
>Jim, as far as I can understand it, your position as co-designer of the GT 
>model is that higher TL goods are available on demand (maybe through mail 
>order) but that the low income of such low TL worlds militates against such 
>demand, so that such goods are still not pervasive.

	Yep.

>My take on this is that, 
>a) in the past and depending on YTU, Traveller players have been subject to 
>availability constraints.
>Removing those constraints, albeit with ordering delays, etc., changes the 
>"flavour" of the universe. This is irrelevant of any economic argument.

	True.  There are still enough barriers to importing hi-tech goods 
(time, interstellar payments system, etc.) that it's not trivially easy and 
a determined GM can keep hi-tech equipment difficult to get.  IMHO, hi-tech 
goods should never be treated like D&D "magic items."  The Imperium is a 
mature, space-faring, hi-tech civilization and with enough money one can 
acquire any legal piece of technology desired.

>b) from an economic point of view, having established that demand is 
>necessarily low, many organisations may not partake in the supply of goods 
>from high TL worlds to low TL worlds, and this militates against easy 
>availability full stop.
>c) development of markets on low TL worlds is further slowed by lack of 
>supporting infrastructure for (possibly) distribution, support and supply 
of 
>corequisite goods & services. Granted, increases in demand my result in 
>development of supporting infrastructure, but this requirement acts as an 
>additional barrier or brake.
>d) therefore, and probably this does not matter anyway, there is no large 
>scale (definitions below) conveyance of very high TL goods (an arbitrary 
limit 
>would be two levels above the target TL, which fits the Book 3 discussion 
on 
>this) and one-off orders might be satisfied by either smaller (single or 
>several ship) lines at a premium, or the traveller equivalent of FedEx. 
Note 
>that private FedEx type organisations also subject to point c) above, and 
this 
>in turn may mean that demand may not be serviced by any delivery mechanism.

	No arguments.  This is what I'm saying about how if you really wanted 
to, you could import anything, but that the tech still isn't pervasive 
because it's expensive and inconvenient.

>e) but, given there are worlds with low GWPs AND which cannot support 
>themselves in the supply of life essentials, there must be economically 
viable 
>large scale (defs below) freight services of life essentials.

Certainly.

>They're allowed to run their own army but I don't believe they're allowed to 
>use them against each other. So worlds in the imperial core are probably not 
>going to run large armies unless they are (literally) balkanised.

	Fair enough.  They're still likely to have some internal security 
forces though.  Canada still has an army even though they have no foreign 
security commitments and no fear of invasion.

>Er, I was also once an economics undergraduate. Food prices at the 
commodity 
>level are subject to medium to long term speculative influences based on 
>harvest predictions and on over/underproduction variables which aren't 
obvious 
>at planting time. And of course to variations in demand. In my *opinion*, 
>local (ie local to the supplying world ) prices for such goods will be as 
>volatile as they are today, depending on the TL of the world (assuming 
higher 
>TL worlds can iron out some of the risk factors in agricultural 
production).
>
>Again in my opinion, given the shipping delay, and the inelastic demand at 
the 
>target world, someone shipping such goods has alot of information to aid in 
>deciding whether to go ahead, and the extent to which the price can be 
>determined, ie they can't change production to match conditions, but they 
can 
>decide whether to ship or not, at least against a 2 week planning cycle. 
And 
>since there are not that many Ag worlds around, they can switch supply 
between 
>markets based on their knowledge of price.
>
>So although mass freight of essentials (and the business behind it) is 
>probably not the highest-premium activity, per tonne of good, it is a 
fairly 
>safe one.

	You're essentially describing interstellar arbitrage, which is an 
important underlying assumption of GT:FT.  See the Ch.2 sidebar "Law of One 
Price."  The implication is that average prices equilibrate across systems, 
in the medium- to long-term, but that prices at any particular point in time 
are unlikely to be the same.  

The sort of commodity speculation you're describing can also be modeled 
using GT:FT.  See the Ch.2 sidebar "Price Series,":

  "The price series system is included to model the movement of freight 
rates and ticket prices, but it has other applications.  If the players want 
to speculate in groat hides or lanthanum, the GM can set up a price series 
and let them buy and sell."  

By extension, all of the rules on spot and futures markets, predicting the 
future, etc. could also be used.

>Sorry. My (grossly oversimplified) definitions:
>large scale - sufficient to support general availability, or availability 
on 
>demand of goods
>medium scale - sufficient to satisfy a single large order
>small scale - one off items of business

Okay.

>Yes, I said I was stumbling :-). But my position was that 
>- there should be no large scale freight of high TL goods from high TL 
worlds 
>to low TL worlds, under the definitions set out just above.

	I agree that everyone on a GTL-8 world isn't walking around with GTL-
12 personal communicators.  But if the government of a GTL-8 world wanted to 
equip its army with GTL-12 communicators, the only significant barrier would 
be money (asuming they're on a trade route).

>- However there must be large scale freight of life essentials to worlds 
which 
>cannot produce them locally (including the poorer low TL worlds)

	I don't doubt that some worlds may be dependent on imported food and 
raw materials.

>- There may also be large scale freight of life essentials and raw 
materials 
>from low TL worlds to industrial worlds, given that these worlds are 
probably 
>using more of certain items than they can produce locally. However in the 
case 
>of raw materials it may be cheaper to mine other worlds in the same system 
>rather than engage in interstellar trade.

	That may be, but we can assume inhospitable worlds were settled for a 
good reason.  See the Ch.2 sidebar "Standard of Living: Labor Productivity, 
Natural Capital, and Tech Level."  In short, we can make up social or 
political reasons for the first few instances of settled inhospitable 
worlds, but after a while these become strained and we are force to admit 
that there must be reasonable economic motivations for developing these 
worlds.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
Co-Author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 21:02:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Far Trader questions

On 06/18/99 20:46:50 you wrote:
>
>Jim MacLean wrote:
>
><snip>
>>>3. what changes should be made to the Distance Mod Table if the area
>is
>>>limited to jump 3 (TTL12)?
>>
>>        None.  Distances are calculated on the shortest *navigable*
>route
>>and are generally
>>assumed to be based on J-2 travel since this is the cheapest way to
>>transport freight.
>>"Navigable route" means the number of parsecs a J-2 ship would actually
>
>>have to travel to get
>>from one world to another.
>
>Just wondering about the info only mod, I had thought that it went by
>J4.
>
>

	If you are along a J-4 route (ie. x-boat route) then yeah, stuff goes 
J-4.  Otherwise, information, like everything else, goes J-2 by default.  
But see the notes on establishing routes in Ch.2 on when there may be J-3 
links.  


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
Co-Author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 21:02:50 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: shipping stuff

On 06/21/99 00:50:47 Ian wrote:
>Yeah. Send em dirt bikes, combine harvesters and land rovers instead.
>
>The other option is to wear the empty space coming back. If you make a
>profit of Cr 2400 per jump, then it's worthwhile to carry empty space back
>(the balance-of-trade issue can be solved by assuming the dominant economy
>owns the production facilities on the peripheral world).

See "Trade Balance in Traveller" GT:FT pg.17, for a more complete discussion 
of trade balance and how it is handled/ignored in Far Trader.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
Co-Author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 22:26:54 EDT
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: MEDIEVAL STARSHIP LANDS! (OT and shameless)

   Medieval Starship successfully landed this weekend in O'Fallon, Illinois. 
For those that missed previous postings over the last several months, I just 
opened a FLGS with a sucessful first week-end.     
   As a proud member of the Traveller Geezer Club, I've of course provided 
Traveller (GT) a promenent position. Also on display (but not for sale) is my 
autographed TAS Alien Encyclopedia (#15), a hardbound GT signed by Mr's 
Miller, Jackson, and Wiseman, and painted sets of Grenadier Imperial Marines 
and Alien Mercenaries. My GDW Vargr poster will be added as soon as it is 
framed.
   Like many, having my own store has been a long time dream.  I'm lucky 
enough to have a spouse that told me to "make my avocation my vocation". 
Imagine that, and her not even a gamer. The store is 2400 sq ft with six 
gaming tables (two are terrain), a catalog area with comfy reading chairs and 
the normal sodas and junk food. Late hours on Fridays and Saturdays and 12-5 
for Sunday gamers. In addition to the RPG's and comics, I also have a sword 
and armor section and anime. I've tried to make it a store I'd want to shop 
in. 
   Many on the list provided advice and suggestions for which I can only say 
repeatedly Thank You, Thank You, Thank You......it's meant very sincerely. 
Many of the ideas have been incorporated into the store. 
   In particular, thanks to Sword Worlder of the Subsidized Merchant. Lots of 
help, encouragement, and suggestions over an extended period of time. Most of 
all, a sense of humor and enthusiasm. If you haven't already done so, please 
visit his site at downport.com.
   My own website is still in the works (medievalstarship.com), but I can be 
reached at starship@intertek.net or 618-632-3026. Now if you've read this 
far, I do have a shameless plug. Anyone placing a order with Medieval 
Starship that mentions the TML will receive a 10% discount on in print 
material. Mailing will be at actual cost. Open every day except Monday. Right 
now all I'm set up to handle is new material but when my stock of OOP hits a 
critical mass I'll be listing it as well (I haven't decided yet if my extra 
JTAS #1 will be included).
  Thanks also for your patience with this off topic self indulgence. 
  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1999 23:32:47 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: MEDIEVAL STARSHIP LANDS! (OT and shameless)

Congratulations!  But I do disagree that you are off-topic.  After all, what
is more on topic than a game store that features Traveller prominently and
proudly!  The last time I asked about Traveller in a local store I was
laughed at by the owner. Of course, that was before his GT display went up
:-)  Best wishes for a successful run.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

- ----- Original Message -----
From: <JLAROSEE@aol.com>
>    Medieval Starship successfully landed this weekend in O'Fallon,
Illinois.
> For those that missed previous postings over the last several months, I
just
> opened a FLGS with a sucessful first week-end

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 00:04:27 -0700
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Trav questions

At 08:00 PM 6/20/99 -0400, Chris Seamans wrote:

<snip>
>Cool. Thanks for the recommendation. I'll keep an eye out for Uplift when I
>poke around for out of print material. I've already got Compendium I, but I
>was just wondering if there might be detailed coverage of some specific
>Traveller issues, maybe more in depth coverage on the status of "minor
>races" in the Imperium, stuff like that.
<snip>

A great place to look for used GURPS books and Traveller (although harder 
to filter), is EBay.  There is usually a copy or two of Uplift on there 
every couple of weeks (although not as I write this).


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
  Saying, I would know.
  Do not know.
  So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #755
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 21 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 756



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Shipping stuff
Re: MEDIEVAL STARSHIP LANDS!
Re: Shipping Stuff
Re: Gearhead Question (Slightly OT)
Re: Far ports and security
Re: Mini-TML meeting in San Francisco
Re: Planetary Dynamics (was:Far ports and security)
Re: Shipping stuff
RE: Another (CT) Missile question
Re: MEDIEVAL STARSHIP LANDS! (OT and shameless)
HIWG CD - cost
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Gearhead Question (Slightly OT)
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: GURPS: Trav questions
Oh, Brave New World (Or "I Think I'm  A Clone Now..")
Re: Oh, Brave New World (Or "I Think I'm  A Clone Now..")
traveller stuff
Re: Shipping stuff
Dr. Evil
SOMETHING VERY ODD/ACQ

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 00:14:49 -0700
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

At 12:40 PM 6/19/99 -0400, Steve Daniels wrote:
>A Major Route (BTN 10) generates 5 million dtons/year at maximum.
>A 12.5 Route would generate 1 billion dtons/year at maximum.
>The best the Spinward Marches do anywhere that I have found is
>Rhylanor - Porozlo with a BTN of 12; 100 million - 500 million dtons/year.

No, due to that last paragraph on page 15, the Rhylanor-Porozlo route only 
comes to a BTN of 11, generating 10-50 million dtons per year.


Jimmy Simpson
       nimrodd@fastlane.net

"You can get more with a kind word
      and a 2 x 4,
than you can with just a kind word."
                          -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 15:38:15 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: MEDIEVAL STARSHIP LANDS!

Dear Folks -

"Old Geezer" JLAROSEE said:
>Also on display (but not for sale) is my
>autographed TAS Alien Encyclopedia (#15), a hardbound GT signed by Mr's
>Miller, Jackson, and Wiseman, and painted sets of Grenadier Imperial
Marines
>and Alien Mercenaries. My GDW Vargr poster will be added as soon as it is
>framed.

And a photo of the shop will soon be on the Web... where??  ;-)

Congratulations!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:18:47 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Shipping Stuff

On 19/6/99 Bloo said :

>A Major Route (BTN 10) generates 5 million dtons/year at maximum.
>A 12.5 Route would generate 1 billion dtons/year at maximum.

Yes, well, that'll teach me to read the wrong column on the table then.
*BLUSH*

>Perhaps you meant to say billions in Credits/Year, which is certainly
>true.

*sounds of nonchalant whistling*

>"The credit value of bilateral trade is constrained to be the same on both ends
>of the route (balanced trade), but the physical dton volume can vary on either
>end, since worlds may export things with different value densities.  For
>instance, an industrial world might export a tiny volume of agricultural
>machinery to an agricultural world and receive a huge volume of grain in
>return."
>GT:FT p.16
>
>"BTN can never exceed the smaller WTN plus 5."
>GT:FT p.15

Yep.

>You don't add BTNs in this way.  2 9's do not make 18.  They don't even make
>9.5.
>
>Rhylanor - Belizo: BTN 9 (6 + 4 + 0.5 = 10.5 - 1 = 9.5): 9.0 Max (4 + 5 = 9)
>Credits/Yr: 1G-5G  Dtons/Yr: 100k-500k  Dtons/Week: 5k-10k
>
>Porozlo - Belizo: BTN 9 (6 + 4 = 10 - 1 = 9): 9.0 Max (4 + 5 = 9)
>Credits/Yr: 1G-5G  Dtons/Yr: 100k-500k
>
>Totals
>Credits/Yr: 2G-10G  Dtons/Yr: 200k-1M
>
>Not so bad a picture as you initially painted.

OK, I'll learn not to think about these things and commit them to the
written word after 3:00am.  Lesson #1 - Read the Book.  My bad.

While on 21/6/99 Ian Whitchurch said :

>Incidentally, the stuff coming back wont make a big impact on the food
>input of your average Porozolan. Assuming 20 billion Porozolans, the 250
>000 dtons of food imports from Belizio turns into about ummm 2 kilos each ?

What I sort of envisaged was Belizo making up the shortfall in Porozlo's
agricultural production.  Like we (and the US and Canada) do for Russia.

>Yeah. Send em dirt bikes, combine harvesters and land rovers instead.
>
>The other option is to wear the empty space coming back. If you make a
>profit of Cr 2400 per jump, then it's worthwhile to carry empty space back
>(the balance-of-trade issue can be solved by assuming the dominant economy
>owns the production facilities on the peripheral world).

OK, that's what I was after.  I was coming at it from the POV of a small
trader, rather than a corporate, who can afford to absorb the losses
better.  I see the returns (of physical goods) being equal in value, but
extremely unequal in dtons, so I was wondering if the corporate ships would
just wear that or not.  I suppose real-world sheep ships don't bring
anything back from the Mideast, do they ?

Whilst on 20/6/99, Hypercleats said :

>Waste gets spaced, right?

I wouldn't have thought so.  Maybe shot off into nearby stars using "sun
guns" ?
I 'spose it depends on how ecologically-minded you see the 3I.  I would
tend to think they don't leave huge piles of industrial waste lying about
for the kiddies to play in.  Probably ship it to planets that have no-one
and/or no potential.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 02:47:20 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Gearhead Question (Slightly OT)

Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net> asks:

>I am working on an alternative setting for a pending campaign.  Most likely
>the designs will be based on FFS1 and ported to the appropriate system.  
>
>Here is the question:  If using stutterwarp as the FTL drive, will using
>artificial gravity disrupt its efficiency?
>
>I have been unable to locate a ruling on this as written in FFS1.  It
>simply states that it needs a large body to discharge near.
>

 Stutterwarp as presented in FF&S1 was derived from 2300AD
(aka Traveller: 2300). That setting doesn't have artificial gravity
as I recall, so the question doesn't come up. Since you are doing
your own setting, the tech interacts the way you want/need it to.
You can set the discharge range for your stutterwarp (7 lightyears
for 2300AD, several years for Star Trek, who knows for Dominic
Flandry's "Hooligan"), how it interacts with artificial gravity vs.
natural, what rates of travel are possible, etc.
  Bottom line. Make it up. Then write it down. Otherwise you'll never
be able to relate it to your players/readers/whatever...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 02:41:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Far ports and security

In mail you write:

>> Well, albedo involves a number of factors. For example, a small random
>> fluctuation in albedo (say from cloud cover, or upper atmosphere dust)
>> can result in a runaway effect. 
>> 
>> More light gets reflected, planet gets cooler, more snow falls (and
>> *stays* through much of the summer), resulting in more light being
>> reflected. It's self-reinforcing until some factor breaks it. 
>
> I wrote a BASIC program that generates solar systems around 1989 but had
> some trouble with determining a realistic range of surface
> temperatures.  Could you give me a run-down list of items that affect
> surface temp and the amount of effect they have?

If I could, I'd be up for a Nobel prize. 

We don't *really* have much more than *estimates* for a lot of this
stuff. We *know* that a large enough volcanic eruption can throw dust
into the air and cause massive cooling. Several eruptions in the last
200 years have had measurable cooling effect on the world climate. One,
back in 1818 or so led to 1819 being known as "the year without a
summer". They had things like snow in *july* in the northern temperate
zone! 

Likewise, we know that CO2 and other gases help trap heat via the
greenhouse effect. 

And it is *thought* that increased cloud cover and ice/snow that lasts
over the summer starts a cycle that leads to an ice age. 

Your best bet is to look up things like climatalogy, ice ages,
greenhouse effect, "nuclear winter", and the like.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:56:36 ADT
From: Les Howie <les_howie@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Mini-TML meeting in San Francisco

Glenn M. Goffin wrote
>If you're coming to the Bay Area, there are several of
>us here who'd like to meet you.

I'd just like to note that I really enjoyed meeting Glenn when I had a 
chance to visit 'Frisco back in 94, (thanks again, Glenn) and I do recommend 
getting in touch with him if you are going there.

I will be in Detroit myself in late July - early August.  I have no idea of 
details, except co-workers tell me client is NOT in nice part of town.  
Anyway, anyone from that part of world who would like to get together plese 
drop me a line (Les_Howie@hotmail.com) and we'll see what we can work out.


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:39:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Planetary Dynamics (was:Far ports and security)

>You're right I was. Silly me. I don't have B6:Scouts (yet), does it cover
>greenhouse effects as well?

Yes, but only as a function of atmosphere code.

>> Albedo is how much light reflects. You can tweak this by changing the
>> ground cover, and the factor you use for clouds (which is 40-80%, IIRC).
>
>Right, it's all coming back to me now, and there have been other good posts on
>this topic. 40-80% what? Coverage of planet? Reflection of light?  What
>determines the range? I get the feeling you mean reflection, and that this
>would be governed by average percentage cloud cover. Hydrographics would
>affect
>this too, right? Polar caps as well? Percentage industrialization? Are albedo
>and greenhouse complimentary? I mean do their factors affect one another? Is
>there some golden ratio between the two?

Albedo values for cloud are 0.40 to 0.80, with the cloudiness percentage
determined by hydrographics.

When I was designing worlds this way, I'd always calculate max/min
temperatures (by tweaking all variables as much as possible in each
direction), then pick the temperature I wanted between there, then
backtract to the actual factors I needed.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:39:45 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

>What I was sort of getting at, leaving aside the bio/chem issue, is would
>it be seen as realistic for bulk freighter to be transporting waste back
>from non-Ag and industrial worlds for processing and use on Ag worlds ?  In
>the case of Belizo, BtC says something about the vulcanism giving the soils
>a rich texture and abundant productivity.  Ergo, would they really need the
>waste products ?  3I farming techniques would surely take into account soil
>productivity and its' tolerance for continued use.  That is, I'm sure that
>they've worked out what crops to plant where to get the best yields, and
>when to leave ground fallow.  If they have their techniques down pat, do
>they really need all that fertilizer ?

Possibly not. OTOH, if the ship is going back there anyway, all you're
paying is handling charges. This might make it economically worthwhile.


>Also, in the vein of your last sentence, would it be reasonable to assume
>that industrial waste from primary and secondary industries is hauled back
>to the point of origin of the raw materials ?  Would they haul back
>chemical slag from the industrialised planets to the mining planets or
>asteroid belts ?  Even in a really efficient production cycle, yer going to
>have some waste products that can't be used or utilised on the
>industrialised planets.

Hauled somewhere, possibly.

IIRC, the present or past Chairman of the Federal Reserve (forget which
guy) once said that it was cheaper to dispose of toxic waste in Third World
countries, because accidents were less costly there (and that it was good
for the countries, because they got some scarce foreign exchange at the
cost of some abundant people, or words to that effect). While I doubt he's
the only capitalist/economist to 'write off' Third World citizens like
that, he was more blatant than anyone else I've heard of.



ObTrav: A poor low tech planet, next to an industrial one, gets a waste
reprocessing plant as foreign aid. The locals aren't told all the dangers
by their leaders (who are busy fattening their offworld bank accounts) and
the mortality rate is climbing, although no one knows quite why.

The players are demobbed scouts, contacted by a friendly noble. They are
asked to have a quiet poke around to determine if there is enough evidence
to warrant Imperial intervention.

The players can gather evidence, but there is nothing actually illegal
going on (just unethical). Remember that the Imperium is laisser faire
about things like this. Further actions will vary depending on the players.
Commando raids, political action, public appeals, economic actions...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:59:06 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Another (CT) Missile question

Dom Mooney writes:
"
 Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> writes:

>"This is my second time doing this. I look through book 2.
>Missile racks are..., missiles cost..., missiles are
>expended, sandcaster canisters weigh 50 kg, but what does
>a standard missile weigh? How many can be put in a missile
>rack, stored right there in the turret, and how many can I
>stack in my hold?"
"
<snipped>

	Just to keep things straight, this was Rob Brady's
	question which I quoted (note the quotation marks in the
	above text). Good answer, though :-)

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 10:33:18 EDT
From: JLAROSEE@aol.com
Subject: Re: MEDIEVAL STARSHIP LANDS! (OT and shameless)

AAAAAAAAK! One successful weekend and I'm already getting notes from 
creditors!
(snip)
Congratulations... you only have forty more years of runs like these to
pay-off the mortgage on your space ship.

James Thomas
Loan Officer, First Delurian Bank & Trust

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 11:05:03 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: HIWG CD - cost

Cost is $20 total, including S&H.

Send to:
Bryan Borich
3890 50th street
San Diego, CA 92105-3005

Allow 6-8 weeks delivery (if I get the check soon enough, they should make it 
out before I leave on vacation).


Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 08:34:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

- --- Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
 
> > OK, we know that on a Main Route (G:FT) we get literally billions
> > of tons of trade per year.
> 
> A Major Route (BTN 10) generates 5 million dtons/year at maximum.
> A 12.5 Route would generate 1 billion dtons/year at maximum.
> The best the Spinward Marches do anywhere that I have found is
> Rhylanor - Porozlo with a BTN of 12; 100 million - 500 million
> dtons/year.

Are you sure about that? Both have a WTN of 6. That would indicate a 
BTN of 11. Far Trader says smallest WTN + 5. That would seem to make 
a 12 impossible unless there were two WTN's of 7. 

Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:55:46 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

>
> IIRC, the present or past Chairman of the Federal Reserve (forget which
> guy) once said that it was cheaper to dispose of toxic waste in Third World
> countries, because accidents were less costly there (and that it was good
> for the countries, because they got some scarce foreign exchange at the
> cost of some abundant people, or words to that effect). While I doubt he's
> the only capitalist/economist to 'write off' Third World citizens like
> that, he was more blatant than anyone else I've heard of.

That is so cold-blooded. I love this as a bit for a Traveller  campaign.
Typical Skin-monkey behavior, and I doubt Vilani Skin-monkeys are any more
ethical than the Solomani, although I think the Zodhani are less likely to
think this way due to their societal structure. Other forms of evil for that
lot.

>
>
> ObTrav: A poor low tech planet, next to an industrial one, gets a waste
> reprocessing plant as foreign aid. The locals aren't told all the dangers
> by their leaders (who are busy fattening their offworld bank accounts) and
> the mortality rate is climbing, although no one knows quite why.
>
> The players are demobbed scouts, contacted by a friendly noble. They are
> asked to have a quiet poke around to determine if there is enough evidence
> to warrant Imperial intervention.
>
> The players can gather evidence, but there is nothing actually illegal
> going on (just unethical). Remember that the Imperium is laisser faire
> about things like this. Further actions will vary depending on the players.
> Commando raids, political action, public appeals, economic actions...

Write it up! this is a great core for a Traveller module. Actually it can be
many modules with a few tweaks here and there.

Chirping Elf
BZA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:03:20 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Gearhead Question (Slightly OT)

At 02:47 AM 6/21/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net> asks:
>
>>I am working on an alternative setting for a pending campaign.  Most likely
>>the designs will be based on FFS1 and ported to the appropriate system.  

<<snip>>

> Stutterwarp as presented in FF&S1 was derived from 2300AD

<<snip>>

>  Bottom line. Make it up. Then write it down. Otherwise you'll never
>be able to relate it to your players/readers/whatever...

That is what I thought, but wanted to make sure there was not something
that stated implicitly one way or the other.

Thanks!

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:35:13 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

Terry Mixon wrote:

> --- Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> wrote:
>
> > > OK, we know that on a Main Route (G:FT) we get literally billions
> > > of tons of trade per year.
> >
> > A Major Route (BTN 10) generates 5 million dtons/year at maximum.
> > A 12.5 Route would generate 1 billion dtons/year at maximum.
> > The best the Spinward Marches do anywhere that I have found is
> > Rhylanor - Porozlo with a BTN of 12; 100 million - 500 million
> > dtons/year.
>
> Are you sure about that? Both have a WTN of 6. That would indicate a
> BTN of 11. Far Trader says smallest WTN + 5. That would seem to make
> a 12 impossible unless there were two WTN's of 7.

Correct.  I don't read my own posts.

Call it the largets "raw" BTN, before adjusted.  ;-)
- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 14:09:22 -0400
From: scott brandsgaard <buzardb8@interport.net>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

> ObTrav: A poor low tech planet, next to an industrial one, gets a waste
> reprocessing plant as foreign aid. The locals aren't told all the dangers
> by their leaders (who are busy fattening their offworld bank accounts) and
> the mortality rate is climbing, although no one knows quite why.
>
> The players are demobbed scouts, contacted by a friendly noble. They are
> asked to have a quiet poke around to determine if there is enough evidence
> to warrant Imperial intervention.
>
> The players can gather evidence, but there is nothing actually illegal
> going on (just unethical). Remember that the Imperium is laisser faire
> about things like this. Further actions will vary depending on the players.
> Commando raids, political action, public appeals, economic actions...

Another possible spin could have the players getting caught in a little
confrontation between the local reprocessing plant and some "well-meaning"
activist group while transporting a load of waste.

What if the players got stuck with the load of waste after a settlement is
reached? hehehe

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 13:27:48 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Trav questions

>Plus the genuine GURPS
>players also recommend Compendium II, UltraTech, UltraTech II, Vehicles,
>Robots
>and just maybe Space if you're looking to play the game rather than glean
>background. At which point you may also need GURPS Lottery Winner (not that
>I
>haven't spent a fortune on Traveller stuff anyway).

As a "genuine GURPS player" I think I would heavily qualify this.
The books mentioned are useful, but you can easily get by without
them.  I might say that I would encourage either Space or
Compendium II stuff but beyond that you certainly don't need
them for a campaign, but they can be useful.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:04:05 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Oh, Brave New World (Or "I Think I'm  A Clone Now..")

Details of the first human embryo to be cloned have been released. 

The watershed achievement in biotechnology actually happened last
November, but more information was revealed on Thursday.

Check out the BBC's story at:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_371000/371378.stm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:22:38 -0500
From: SFC Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Oh, Brave New World (Or "I Think I'm  A Clone Now..")

"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:
> 
> Details of the first human embryo to be cloned have been released.
> 
> The watershed achievement in biotechnology actually happened last
> November, but more information was revealed on Thursday.
> 
> Check out the BBC's story at:
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_371000/371378.stm

Are they cloning in groups of six?  ;-)

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:56:53 -0500
From: "Kevin Roberts" <kr23st00@apex.net>
Subject: traveller stuff

Hello there,

                    I am looking for a following things.

1) An adventure that is a first contact.  But here is the twist.  The planet
    is earth now.  And it is other humans landing in the United States.
    I saw it somewhere on the net once.

2) I know that "Traveller Chronicals" is the last traveller mag put out.  I
    am looking for the Issues 1 - 4.  Please if you have these issues
    email me.  I would like to make a deal for them.

3)  I am a big fan of "Space above and Beyond" .  Does anyone have
    the stats for the Hamer Heads, and other spaceships.

4)  Where is a good site for T4 net adventures?

Thankyou for your time....

end of line......

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 17:47:11 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

Was written:

 ObTrav: A poor low tech planet, next to an industrial one, gets a waste
>> reprocessing plant as foreign aid. The locals aren't told all the dangers
>> by their leaders (who are busy fattening their offworld bank accounts)
and
>> the mortality rate is climbing, although no one knows quite why.


SNIP

>What if the players got stuck with the load of waste after a settlement is
>reached? hehehe

My response:

Only one problem with the above scenario is that I expect that most nasty
waste in Traveller gets dealt with just like we do it right now.    It gets
burned in as hot a furnace as can be arranged.  In Traveller it would be
dropped into the nearest nuclear furnace, a convenient star.  Now if you
want to have a scenario where a loose load of radioactive waste, mega death
in a large economy sized can, from a shifty but well connected company ends
up on a collision course with a populated planet and everyone wants the
problem settled quietly, before it hits the atmosphere if you don't mind,
that is another story.

D. C. Phelps, P.G.
M.S. Geology
M.S. Environmental Management
 Guess what I do for a living...
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 17:20:38 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Dr. Evil

For those interested, I have an MP3 of Dr. Evil's therapy
session.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about..it's best
you don't know.

ObTrav: Oh, come on. The guy's a classic NPC. I'd *love*
to see the Tavr'chedl deal with *his* state of mind.
Probably end up starting the 6th Frontier War....

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 23:43:09 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: SOMETHING VERY ODD/ACQ

Doug Berry struck a blow for Penguin rights in the ACQ draft - however, it
seems others are joining in. First I find the Atari Jaguar Cart 'Attack of
the Mutant Penguins' in which you (with the aid of the good Penguins defend
the Earth from the attack of the Mutant space Alien Penguins, then I turn
to New Scientist and find.....

Extract (c) New Scientist   5 June 1999
http://www.newscientist.com/ns/19990605/feedback.html

SOMETHING VERY ODD seems to be happening in the world of
                          nuclear physics. Here is a list of recent papers
that have appeared in physics
                          journals, kindly supplied by reader Michael John
Gifford.

                          "Penguin topologies, rescattering effects and
penguin hunting" (Nuclear
                          Physics B); "Space-like penguin effects in Bc
decays" (European Physics
                          Journal C); "Charming-penguin enhanced B decays"
(Nuclear Physics B);
                          "How to trap a non-standard penguin? Isospin
symmetry violations in B-decays
                          with enhanced chromomagnetic dipole operator"
(Physics Letters B); "The
                          self-penguin contribution to K*2?" (Physics
Letters B); "Spacelike penguin
                          diagram effects in B*?? decays" (Physical Review D).

                          What is going on, you may ask. The answer, it
turns out, is that a penguin is
                          not necessarily a bird that lives in the
Antarctic. It is also a type of diagram that
                          maps interactions between nuclear particles. The
first such diagram apparently
                          resembled a penguin, hence these bizarre titles.

                          But while we're on the subject, let us not forget
the feathered variety of
                          penguin. When he was gathering the titles listed
above, Gifford also came
                          across several papers about penguins in the
Antarctic. He was particularly
                          struck by: "Cocktail-party effect in king penguin
colonies" (Proceedings of the
                          Royal Society B).

                          One way or another, there's more to penguins than
meets the eye.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #756
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 22 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 757



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Shipping Stuff
Re: OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!
Re: SOMETHING VERY ODD/ACQ
SOMETHING VERY ODD/ACQ
Re: Shipping Stuff
Re: SOMETHING VERY ODD/ACQ 
Parallel Mounted Weapons in FF&S2
Fanzines
Re: Fanzines
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #756
Questions for a problem
Re: Dr Evil
Re: Questions for a problem
Re: Questions for a problem
Re: SOMETHING VERY ODD/ACQ
Re: SOMETHING VERY ODD/ACQ
Re: Questions for a problem
Re: Questions for a problem
dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)
traveller stuff
Re : Shipping stuff
Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)
Re: Shipping Stuff
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Shipping stuff

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 18:11:17 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Shipping Stuff

David Healey wrote:

>>Yeah. Send em dirt bikes, combine harvesters and land rovers instead.
>>
>>The other option is to wear the empty space coming back. If you make a

>>profit of Cr 2400 per jump, then it's worthwhile to carry empty space
>back
>>(the balance-of-trade issue can be solved by assuming the dominant
>economy
>>owns the production facilities on the peripheral world).
>
>OK, that's what I was after.  I was coming at it from the POV of a
small
>trader, rather than a corporate, who can afford to absorb the losses
>better.  I see the returns (of physical goods) being equal in value,
but
>extremely unequal in dtons, so I was wondering if the corporate ships
would
>just wear that or not.  I suppose real-world sheep ships don't bring
>anything back from the Mideast, do they ?
>

If the shipper is already atleast breaknig even on the round trip, they
will fill the hold with anything that will earn more than it costs to
ship rather than send it back empty.  (cost to ship will include
loading, unloading, manuever losses (manuever time due to higher mass or
extra manuever fuel), time losses, etc.).  If they can make an extra
10Cr / dTon then they would fill the hold with anything, as it is
profit.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:06:00 -0700
From: "Douglas Glatz" <douglas@teleport.COM>
Subject: Re: OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!

> But will they hire Chris Foss to do the poster? ;)

Art Director....  ;)

douglas

E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas
IMTU: tc+ t4+ tg- ru(+) ge(+) 3I+@ pi+ jt au- st ls
Oh No!  Not another *learning experience*!!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 16:56:32 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: SOMETHING VERY ODD/ACQ

SD Mooney wrote:
> 
> Doug Berry struck a blow for Penguin rights in the ACQ draft - however, it
> seems others are joining in. First I find the Atari Jaguar Cart 'Attack of
> the Mutant Penguins' in which you (with the aid of the good Penguins defend
> the Earth from the attack of the Mutant space Alien Penguins, then I turn
> to New Scientist and find.....

Snippage

Hmmm...maybe Linus IS going to take over the world...wonder of it's all
those Linux beowulf clusters that they're using for supercomputers...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 17:33:36 PDT
From: will richards <willrichards@hotmail.com>
Subject: SOMETHING VERY ODD/ACQ

Doo Bee Doo Bee DOOO.......

  Play Traveller! but.... Beware the Penquins!

  Will


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:04:52 -0400
From: Joe Pettit <jpettit@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Shipping Stuff

>
> If the shipper is already atleast breaknig even on the round trip, they
> will fill the hold with anything that will earn more than it costs to
> ship rather than send it back empty.  (cost to ship will include
> loading, unloading, manuever losses (manuever time due to higher mass or
> extra manuever fuel), time losses, etc.).  If they can make an extra
> 10Cr / dTon then they would fill the hold with anything, as it is
> profit.

One option would be using "collapsible" or "disposable" storage.  By mating
cargo modules to "zero-cargo" vessel, you can deliver them and leave without
worrying about "empty cargo"  It would be a more efficient return trip, but
you're still going back empty handed.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:12:55 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: SOMETHING VERY ODD/ACQ 

> SD Mooney wrote:
> > 
> > Doug Berry struck a blow for Penguin rights in the ACQ draft - however, it
> > seems others are joining in. First I find the Atari Jaguar Cart 'Attack of
> > the Mutant Penguins' in which you (with the aid of the good Penguins defend
> > the Earth from the attack of the Mutant space Alien Penguins, then I turn
> > to New Scientist and find.....
> 
> Snippage
> 
> Hmmm...maybe Linus IS going to take over the world...wonder of it's all
> those Linux beowulf clusters that they're using for supercomputers...

Works for me.  I don't use *anything* from the Evil Empire here at all.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 20:50:48 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Parallel Mounted Weapons in FF&S2

What limitations are there on parallel-mount weapons in FF&S2? 
Specifically:

1.  Is there a limit (other than tonnage) to the number of parallel
mounts?

2.  Can a single ship mount both meson gun and PAW parallel mounts?

3.  Do all parallel mounts have to engage the same target?  If not, what
variation in firing arc is allowed?

The AuricTech Shipyards Concept Bureau has just designed a 60,000 dton
cruiser, TL-15, with two parallel-mount NPAWs, and four parallel-mount
meson guns, and the Concept Bureau chief would like to know whether this
is allowed under FF&S2.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 19:02:54 -0700
From: James Brewer <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Fanzines

Does anyone know of any Traveller fanzines that still exist or have they
all been replaced by mailing lists and web sites.  I always liked fanzines
despite their unevenness, (and the greater chance of getting something
published).

Jim Brewer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:17:50 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Fanzines

Freelance Traveller is a great online fanzine.
http://come.to/freelancetraveller

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

- ----- Original Message -----
From: James Brewer <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>

> Does anyone know of any Traveller fanzines that still exist or have they
> all been replaced by mailing lists and web sites.  I always liked fanzines
> despite their unevenness, (and the greater chance of getting something
> published).

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:24:32 -0500
From: "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #756

Oh, me, ooh my... I do tend to play that kind of scout don't I? And thus 
encourage my players that direction...

Yes, that will probably end up being a "Gunner, Fusion, light vehicle in the
open, fire when ready!" kind of adventure.

Thank you for a delightfully nasty idea...

William


> Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 09:39:45 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: Shipping stuff
>
>>What I was sort of getting at, leaving aside the bio/chem issue, is would
>>it be seen as realistic for bulk freighter to be transporting waste back
>>from non-Ag and industrial worlds for processing and use on Ag worlds ?  In
>>the case of Belizo, BtC says something about the vulcanism giving the soils
>>a rich texture and abundant productivity.  Ergo, would they really need the
>>waste products ?  3I farming techniques would surely take into account soil
>>productivity and its' tolerance for continued use.  That is, I'm sure that
>>they've worked out what crops to plant where to get the best yields, and
>>when to leave ground fallow.  If they have their techniques down pat, do
>>they really need all that fertilizer ?
>
> Possibly not. OTOH, if the ship is going back there anyway, all you're
> paying is handling charges. This might make it economically worthwhile.
>
>
>>Also, in the vein of your last sentence, would it be reasonable to assume
>>that industrial waste from primary and secondary industries is hauled back
>>to the point of origin of the raw materials ?  Would they haul back
>>chemical slag from the industrialised planets to the mining planets or
>>asteroid belts ?  Even in a really efficient production cycle, yer going to
>>have some waste products that can't be used or utilised on the
>>industrialised planets.
>
> Hauled somewhere, possibly.
>
> IIRC, the present or past Chairman of the Federal Reserve (forget which
> guy) once said that it was cheaper to dispose of toxic waste in Third World
> countries, because accidents were less costly there (and that it was good
> for the countries, because they got some scarce foreign exchange at the
> cost of some abundant people, or words to that effect). While I doubt he's
> the only capitalist/economist to 'write off' Third World citizens like
> that, he was more blatant than anyone else I've heard of.
>
>
>
> ObTrav: A poor low tech planet, next to an industrial one, gets a waste
> reprocessing plant as foreign aid. The locals aren't told all the dangers
> by their leaders (who are busy fattening their offworld bank accounts) and
> the mortality rate is climbing, although no one knows quite why.
>
> The players are demobbed scouts, contacted by a friendly noble. They are
> asked to have a quiet poke around to determine if there is enough evidence
> to warrant Imperial intervention.
>
> The players can gather evidence, but there is nothing actually illegal
> going on (just unethical). Remember that the Imperium is laisser faire
> about things like this. Further actions will vary depending on the players.
> Commando raids, political action, public appeals, economic actions...


- --
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
road and may God's blessing be with           |
you always.                                   |
St. Claire                                    |

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:59:42 -0500
From: "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Questions for a problem

Hello all,
I am exploring a possible Contact article for Pyramid (as in, if I can make
it work I'll submit it ;). As a result I have a couple of questions:

1) If a moon that circles a Gas Giant is tidally locked with that GG, how do
you figure it's day/night cycle with reference to the system's primary?

2) Platinum has a nasty high melting point. But what I don't know is how
ductile it is... Could someone who found a surface deposit use it as our
ancestors used copper? Also, what TL would be the absolute min to build a
furnace capable of melting it?

3) Is there any possible reason for evolution to (seemingly ;) favor a
quadrapedal form over a hexapedal form?


Thanks in advance for all answers.

William

- --
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
road and may God's blessing be with           |
you always.                                   |
St. Claire                                    |

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:55:26 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: Dr Evil

Where can I find this MP3 file?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 22:24:55 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Questions for a problem

William Barnett-Lewis wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> I am exploring a possible Contact article for Pyramid (as in, if I can make
> it work I'll submit it ;). As a result I have a couple of questions:
> 
> 1) If a moon that circles a Gas Giant is tidally locked with that GG, how do
> you figure it's day/night cycle with reference to the system's primary?
> 
If I understand the concept of "tidally-locked" correctly, I would
probably use the Terra-Luna relationship as an [incomplete] example. 
Thus, each portion of the moon's surface would, barring eclipses by the
parent world, be exposed to sunlight for about half the time it takes
said moon to orbit the parent world.

Obviously, gas giants are more likely than Terran-type rockballs to
eclipse their moons, so this is an incomplete analogy.  It does,
however, give one a starting point from which to work.

<<snip>>

> 3) Is there any possible reason for evolution to (seemingly ;) favor a
> quadrapedal form over a hexapedal form?
> 
Given that Terran life forms have varied limb forms in non-endoskeletal
animals, yet are invariably quadrapedal (including arms/wings/vestigal
limbs) in endoskeletal animals, I would suspect that there was an actual
evolutionary advantage for quadripedal vertebrates.  Why this would be
is beyond my knowledge.  However, if forced to speculate, I owuld
probably conclude that vertebrate life forms will evolve to have the
minimum number of limbs required for that life form to fulfill its
ecological niche.  On Terra, that appears to be four limbs, in general,
for endoskeletal animals.  Your planet may vary.

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 20:26:49
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Questions for a problem

At 09:59 PM 6/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>I am exploring a possible Contact article for Pyramid (as in, if I can make
>it work I'll submit it ;). As a result I have a couple of questions:
>
>1) If a moon that circles a Gas Giant is tidally locked with that GG, how do
>you figure it's day/night cycle with reference to the system's primary?

Assume that the moon's orbital period is 100 hours.  At point "A", which we
will assume is on the equator, we'll start with the moon directly between
the GG and the star, with A at "high noon."

As the moon orbits, A will slide away from the star until the sun seemingly
sets.  This will occur when the Moon is 90 degrees from the start position.
 A will remain in darkness for another 180 degrees, when the sun "rises"
So half the orbital period would work.

Now take point "B", on the equator facing the planet.  The same basic rule
applies, but B will deal with an eclipse once an orbit.  The duration of
this eclipse depends on the size of the GG and the diameter of the orbit.

>3) Is there any possible reason for evolution to (seemingly ;) favor a
>quadrapedal form over a hexapedal form?

The vast majority of species on Earth are hexapodal.  Insects uber alles!!
AFAIK, there's now year reason, just happened to be how the majority of
large species on Earth developed.
>
>
>Thanks in advance for all answers.
>
>William
>
>--
>Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
>as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
>road and may God's blessing be with           |
>you always.                                   |
>St. Claire                                    |
>
>
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 20:28:40
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: SOMETHING VERY ODD/ACQ

At 05:33 PM 6/21/99 PDT, you wrote:
>
>Doo Bee Doo Bee DOOO.......

Doo Bee ACQ.....

- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 20:32:32
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: SOMETHING VERY ODD/ACQ

At 11:43 PM 6/21/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Doug Berry struck a blow for Penguin rights in the ACQ draft - however, it
>seems others are joining in. First I find the Atari Jaguar Cart 'Attack of
>the Mutant Penguins' in which you (with the aid of the good Penguins defend
>the Earth from the attack of the Mutant space Alien Penguins, then I turn
>to New Scientist and find.....

<snip>

>One way or another, there's more to penguins than meets the eye.

<rant> I told ye!  But you didn't listen!! They're here! they're here! The
San Francisco Zoo has TWENTY BABY PENGUINS!!!!!  The next wave! It's no
coincidence that the last remake of "Invasion of the Body Snatches" was
filmed here!!!</rant>
- -- 
Douglas E. Berry - dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol,
violence, or insanity to anyone,
but they've always worked for me.
             -- Hunter S. Thompson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 00:00:05 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Questions for a problem

In a message dated 6/21/99 9:59:53 PM US Eastern Standard Time, 
wlewis@mailbag.com writes:

> 1) If a moon that circles a Gas Giant is tidally locked with that GG, how do
>  you figure it's day/night cycle with reference to the system's primary?

Rotation period will be equal to the moon's orbital period around the gas
giant.  You can probably approximate the effective orbital period with respect
to the primary star by taking the gas giant's orbital period around the 
primary.
The "local calendar" rules in First In will carry you through then.  Remember
that a tide-locked world won't rotate retrograde.


>  2) Platinum has a nasty high melting point. But what I don't know is how
>  ductile it is... Could someone who found a surface deposit use it as our
>  ancestors used copper? Also, what TL would be the absolute min to build a
>  furnace capable of melting it?

No guess.  My metallurgy is wobbly and I don't have any good references
right at hand.


>  3) Is there any possible reason for evolution to (seemingly ;) favor a
>  quadrapedal form over a hexapedal form?

Not that I'm aware of.  There's no reason to expect hexapedal critters to
be any more clumsy, for example -- spiders have more limbs than that
and they're quite agile.  My guess is that Terran vertebrates are basically
four-limbed for no better reason than random chance.

What, are you trying to write up the Aion?  :-).

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 00:04:22 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Questions for a problem

In a message dated 6/21/99 10:44:23 PM US Eastern Standard Time, 
dberry@hooked.net writes:

> Assume that the moon's orbital period is 100 hours.  At point "A", which we
>  will assume is on the equator, we'll start with the moon directly between
>  the GG and the star, with A at "high noon."
>  
>  As the moon orbits, A will slide away from the star until the sun seemingly
>  sets.  This will occur when the Moon is 90 degrees from the start position.
>   A will remain in darkness for another 180 degrees, when the sun "rises"
>  So half the orbital period would work.

This doesn't quite work, because you're neglecting the gas giant's orbital 
motion
around the primary.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:14:24 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)

> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

> ObTrav: A poor low tech planet, next to an industrial one, gets a waste
> reprocessing plant as foreign aid. The locals aren't told all the dangers
> by their leaders (who are busy fattening their offworld bank accounts) and
> the mortality rate is climbing, although no one knows quite why.

Does this make economic sense?  If you're going to send your waste
off-planet, why not just shove it towards the sun?  I guess it depends
on what the waste is.  Maybe there is something worth extracting from it
that justifies the expense.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:21:19 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: traveller stuff

> From: "Kevin Roberts" <kr23st00@apex.net>

>                     I am looking for a following things.
> 
> 1) An adventure that is a first contact.  But here is the twist.  The
> planet is earth now.  And it is other humans landing in the United States.
> 
> I saw it somewhere on the net once.

I did post to the list that in my Traveller universe, the Roswell
incident in 1947 was the crash of a Vilani vessel.  That might be a fun
scenario to play out, with the PCs as either the injured Vilani crew
trying to get a message home or as USAF personnel or as outsiders trying
to figure out what happened.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:34:54 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Shipping stuff

D. C. Phelps wrote :-
> Only one problem with the above scenario is that I expect that most nasty
> waste in Traveller gets dealt with just like we do it right now.    It gets
> burned in as hot a furnace as can be arranged.

Once fusion power is readily available, no.
Plasma torch the waste and recycle the raw material stream.

Mine landfills, etc. if you don't have access to fusion power.
Bioremediation. Etc.

Fissile materials can be put into breeder reactors and more fuel
generated. Given the long history of civilisation in Charted Space, this
has to be going on (thorium -> uranium 233, uranium 238 to plutonium,
etc.) otherwise all the heavy radionuclides would have run out.

[Tbousands of years of continued occupancy implies some attempt at
environmental management].

> Now if you
> want to have a scenario where a loose load of radioactive waste, mega death
> in a large economy sized can,

With sufficient velocity a tin of baked beans or confetti will be 'mega
death in a can'.

Remember that your radioactive waste needs to be optimally dispersed. It
is unlikely to be prepared in such a manner to enable this. Contrast
this to BW agents that Ken Alibek describes in his book (a former
director of the Soviet biological warfare program).

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:59:07 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:

> > From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
> > Subject: Re: Shipping stuff
>
> > ObTrav: A poor low tech planet, next to an industrial one, gets a waste
> > reprocessing plant as foreign aid. The locals aren't told all the dangers
> > by their leaders (who are busy fattening their offworld bank accounts) and
> > the mortality rate is climbing, although no one knows quite why.
>
> Does this make economic sense?  If you're going to send your waste
> off-planet, why not just shove it towards the sun?  I guess it depends
> on what the waste is.  Maybe there is something worth extracting from it
> that justifies the expense.
>
> --Glenn

Or it may only justify the expense if you can stick someone else with the
dangers.

Besides, the sun is off-planet. I think you mean out-system, another whole
ballgame, much more expensive.

Chirping Elf
BZA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:35:20 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Shipping Stuff

On 21/6/99, Daniel Phelps said :

>SNIP
>
>>What if the players got stuck with the load of waste after a settlement is
>>reached? hehehe
>
>My response:
>
>Only one problem with the above scenario is that I expect that most nasty
>waste in Traveller gets dealt with just like we do it right now.    It gets

Turned into Vegemite and sold to the tourists as a delicacy ?

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 23:59:46 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

>From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
>Subject: Re: Shipping stuff
.
>> for the countries, because they got some scarce foreign exchange at the
>> cost of some abundant people, or words to that effect). While I doubt he's
>> the only capitalist/economist to 'write off' Third World citizens like
>> that, he was more blatant than anyone else I've heard of.
>
>That is so cold-blooded. I love this as a bit for a Traveller  campaign.
>Typical Skin-monkey behavior, and I doubt Vilani Skin-monkeys are any more
>ethical than the Solomani, although I think the Zodhani are less likely to
>think this way due to their societal structure. Other forms of evil for that
>lot.

  A cynic might point out that at least the Vilani were honest enough to
admit that their system was government by the great production trusts. One
almost shudders to imagine what Vilani apologists pass off for ideology.

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 05:09:47 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

>D. C. Phelps wrote :-
>> Only one problem with the above scenario is that I expect that most nasty
>> waste in Traveller gets dealt with just like we do it right now.    It
gets
>> burned in as hot a furnace as can be arranged.
>
>Once fusion power is readily available, no.
>Plasma torch the waste and recycle the raw material stream.


Sorry i didn't I dentify the waste.  If it is organic without an admixture
of metals, i.e. spent solvents,  biologicals, etc. it would still probably
get burned.  That is the simplest and most certain solution.

>Mine landfills, etc. if you don't have access to fusion power.
>Bioremediation. Etc.

Mines,  landfills, etc. are storage solutions they don't necessary solve the
problem just contain it for the short term i.e. 10, 20, 50, 100 years.
Unless other processes reduce the problem, natural degragation, half lives
of both radioactive and chemical decay etc. it is still there.  My
understanding is the Love Canal stayed buried with little movement of
contaminates until the clay cap was breached by subsequent development years
later.

>Fissile materials can be put into breeder reactors and more fuel
>generated. Given the long history of civilisation in Charted Space, this
>has to be going on (thorium -> uranium 233, uranium 238 to plutonium,
>etc.) otherwise all the heavy radionuclides would have run out.
>

Quite correct.

>[Tbousands of years of continued occupancy implies some attempt at
>environmental management].
>
>> Now if you
>> want to have a scenario where a loose load of radioactive waste, mega
death
>> in a large economy sized can,
>
>With sufficient velocity a tin of baked beans or confetti will be 'mega
>death in a can'.


True but we are not talking relativistic or even near relativistic speeds.
We are talking about surface impact or atmospheric breakup of a medium sized
object larger than a box car, smaller than a super tanker full of
radioactive material.

>Remember that your radioactive waste needs to be optimally dispersed. It
>is unlikely to be prepared in such a manner to enable this. Contrast
>this to BW agents that Ken Alibek describes in his book (a former
>director of the Soviet biological warfare program).

Quite correct from a scientific view point but I was talking, at least in
part, about the social results.  Picture the political/economic results on a
populace who think in terms of radioactivity as leprosy.   Any contact in
their minds means unclean, Unclean, UNCLEAN.   It becomes common knowledge
that its coming and everyone downs tools and heads for the shelters, picks
up rocks, bricks, clubs or what have you and takes apart the whatever
represents the threat or whatever offers revenge; or they try by what ever
means available to leave planet.   Instant political chaos no mater what the
actual degree of threat is.  If it hits the planet and becomes common
knowledge, even if it stays more or less intact, because of the political
consequences the place becomes a red or at least an amber zone.  People will
not want their products, because "it's tainted"  they won't want to visit
and they won't want people from the planet around, "He an ok fellow I guess
but would you want your sister to marry him?   The children could be mutants
you know."  Popular perception, fear,  prejudice,  not rational discourse
would rule.  Remember for most people radioactivity is the "the devil in the
dark".    It can't be seen or felt but it will "get you" or your children.
You can run but you can't hide from irrational fear.   These people have had
centuries of history in which nukes have been used in war, radioactive hot
zones perhaps a couple of centuries old on some planets.  They "know" the
consequences and they don't want "it to happen here" "not in my back yard"
becomes "not on my planet" thank you very much.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #757
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 22 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 758



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Questions for a problem
RE: Shipping stuff
Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)
Re: Questions for a problem
Re: Questions for a problem
Re: Parallel Mounted Weapons in FF&S2
Re: Questions for a problem
Re : Questions for a problem
Re : shipping stuff (becoming toxic waste)
Re : Platinum (was : questions for a problem)
Re: traveller stuff
re: Shipping Stuff
Alien Earth - Brain Teaser
Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser
Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser
Re: Questions for a problem
Re: Re : shipping stuff (becoming toxic waste)
Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser
GEN CON UK & BITS
GT Resource Request
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Questions for a problem
Re: Shipping stuff

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:34:56 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Questions for a problem

Actually if it is a typical gas giant its orbital motion can probably be
ignored as the effect on any moons would be insignificant.

However what about the so called hot gas giants which orbit close to the
primary. In these cases orbital motion of the gas giant would have a
significant effect on the day/night of any moons.

Beats me how you would work this out though.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:41:12 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Shipping stuff

How about something like those old Soviet satelites with plutonium fuel.
Didn't one reenter a few years ago and splatter a radioactive foot print
over Canada?

Make it a larger object say an old space station, large pieces of Skylab
came down here relatively intact, if it had had a load of radicoative fuel
voila eco disaster!

Incidently the air lock from Skylab reached us in one battered piece.

Antony Farrell

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 22:03:12 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)

Date sent:      	Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:14:24 -0700
From:           	"Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>

> > From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
> > Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

> > ObTrav: A poor low tech planet, next to an industrial one, gets a waste
> > reprocessing plant as foreign aid. The locals aren't told all the dangers
> > by their leaders (who are busy fattening their offworld bank accounts) and
> > the mortality rate is climbing, although no one knows quite why.
> 
> Does this make economic sense?  If you're going to send your waste
> off-planet, why not just shove it towards the sun?  I guess it depends
> on what the waste is.  Maybe there is something worth extracting from it
> that justifies the expense.

Its the old story. One planets toxic waste is another planets mother lode. It 
would seem to me that this might be a ready market for low tech industrial 
waste on higher tech worlds.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 03:11:30
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Questions for a problem

At 12:04 AM 6/22/99 EDT, you wrote:

>This doesn't quite work, because you're neglecting the gas giant's orbital 
>motion around the primary.

This was meant as a rough approximation.  I'm not sure of the math to
account for progression.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 06:25:42 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Questions for a problem

- -----Original Message-----
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Monday, June 21, 1999 10:59 PM
Subject: Questions for a problem


>Hello all,
>I am exploring a possible Contact article for Pyramid (as in, if I can make
>it work I'll submit it ;). As a result I have a couple of questions:


>2) Platinum has a nasty high melting point. But what I don't know is how
>ductile it is... Could someone who found a surface deposit use it as our
>ancestors used copper? Also, what TL would be the absolute min to build a
>furnace capable of melting it?


I'm speaking as an ex-jeweler here. Platinum is hard to work with. Really
hard. Very hard. Did I mention it's quite difficult to work with?

If you want to "work" copper, you can do it with wooden tools, stone tools,
rawhide hammers, whatever. Personally, I think that once a culture developed
the tools to be able to work with platinum effectively (iron and more
specifically steel) those same tools would be better for whatever they
wanted to do. Of course, if they developed the technology to work steel, but
didn't have an abundance of iron... you could take it from there.

I imagine that decent tools and low-tech weapons could be made with platinum
though. It's nearly three times as heavy as iron, and though I've never
tested it, I imagine it would keep a good edge. The problem is, of course,
is being able to work it effectively, and most importantly, being able to
melt it.

I'm not up on the history of metallurgy, so I can't say at what TL a furnace
could be developed that could burn hot enough to melt platinum. Sorry that I
can't help you out there.

I hope this is somewhat useful to you.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:41:10 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Parallel Mounted Weapons in FF&S2

all answers are IMO.

At 20:50 21/06/1999 -0500, Black ICE <wombat@premier.net> asked:

>What limitations are there on parallel-mount weapons in FF&S2? 
>Specifically:
>
>1.  Is there a limit (other than tonnage) to the number of parallel
>mounts?

No. However, watch out for cross sectional area, especially if
you use the long cylinder or needle hull types. As long as the weapons
are within 90% of the length of the hule, this should not be a problem.

>2.  Can a single ship mount both meson gun and PAW parallel mounts?

Yes

>3.  Do all parallel mounts have to engage the same target?  If not, what
>variation in firing arc is allowed?

This is unclear. Since the spinal mounts must have some sort of firing arc
then I would assume that as long as both targets are in arc, then yes.
However, that arc is not going to be very large. You might want to
consider putting the weapons into very large custom bays or (or even
turrets) for maximum flexibility.

>The AuricTech Shipyards Concept Bureau has just designed a 60,000 dton
>cruiser, TL-15, with two parallel-mount NPAWs, and four parallel-mount
>meson guns, and the Concept Bureau chief would like to know whether this
>is allowed under FF&S2.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 12:08:44 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Questions for a problem

At 21:59 21/06/1999 -0500, "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com> wrote:
<snip>
>2) Platinum has a nasty high melting point. But what I don't know is how
>ductile it is... Could someone who found a surface deposit use it as our
>ancestors used copper? Also, what TL would be the absolute min to build a
>furnace capable of melting it?

Quote from:

http://www.shef.ac.uk/chemistry/web-elements/webelements/elements/text/index
/Pt.html

	The metal was used by pre-Columbian Indians but platinum was "rediscovered"
	in South America by Ulloa in 1735 and by Wood in 1741. In 1822 plenty of
	platinum was discovered in the Ural Mountains in Russia.

Sounds like TL 1-2

The properties of platinum suggest that it is somewhere between copper and
iron in strength and ductility.

That extra weight doesn't help, though it might make a good axe head.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:23:16 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Questions for a problem

William Barnett-Lewis wrote :-
<questions one and three have reasonable answers supplied by other kind
posters>

> Platinum has a nasty high melting point.
> But what I don't know is how
> ductile it is... Could someone who found a surface deposit use it as our
> ancestors used copper? Also, what TL would be the absolute min to build a
> furnace capable of melting it?

The metal is roughly as ductile as silver. The platinum group metals
were only isolated in the 19th century, so minimum TL for a furnace is 3
or 4.

Platinum appears in only small amounts in the richest ore bodies on
Earth - roughly one gram of metal per 1000kg of ore.

A rich surface deposit would most likely be an old asteroidal impact
site.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:37:34 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : shipping stuff (becoming toxic waste)

D.C. Phelps wrote :-

> If it is organic without an admixture
> of metals, i.e. spent solvents,  biologicals, etc. it would still probably
> get burned.  That is the simplest and most certain solution.
> 

Squirt it into the nearest fusion pile and get CHONPS + halogens out the
other side.

<of landfills, etc. as temporary solutions for waste problems>:-

> Unless other processes reduce the problem, natural degragation, half lives
> of both radioactive and chemical decay etc. it is still there.

Yes. So everyone knows where the stuff is.
Perhaps later on someone can dig it back up and turn it into something
useful (plentiful energy in the form of fusion power makes this easy).
Or you could sink wells into it and tap off methane perhaps. Or
introduce halophile or other extremophile bacteria to gently detoxify
it.

<on contamination >:-
> I was talking, at least in
> part, about the social results.  Picture the political/economic results on a
> populace who think in terms of radioactivity as leprosy.

Ahh, the majority of 'middle class Western' citizenry of late 20th
century Terra, for example.

Ob Trav : what cultural quirks are present in the 3I with regard to
technology (e.g. fission evil, tides and wind good?)

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
[Who assumes, perhaps naively, sensible environmental management in most
of the worlds of the far future]

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:48:32 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Platinum (was : questions for a problem)

D'oh!

Some more info that may be of use :-
While the platinum group metals (including palladium, osmium, rhodium,
ruthenium, iridium) were isolated in the 19th century, small amounts
of metallic platinum were found by the conquistadores in South America.

Platinum was called 'platina', Spanish for 'little silver'. It was felt
to be unripe gold, and often thrown away!

A trick for lowering the melting point to that of iron or thereabouts
was first described in Europe by a French jeweler named Janety that I
think flourished in pre-Revolutionary times.

Platinum arsenates have a much lower melting point than pure metal (and
a distinct deep blue-black colour) ; one can imagine the noxious arsenic
oxides that must have tainted M. Janety's workshop!

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 07:39:50 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: traveller stuff

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
> 
> > From: "Kevin Roberts" <kr23st00@apex.net>
> 
> >                     I am looking for a following things.
> >
> > 1) An adventure that is a first contact.  But here is the twist.  The
> > planet is earth now.  And it is other humans landing in the United States.
> >
> > I saw it somewhere on the net once.
> 
> I did post to the list that in my Traveller universe, the Roswell
> incident in 1947 was the crash of a Vilani vessel.  That might be a fun
> scenario to play out, with the PCs as either the injured Vilani crew
> trying to get a message home or as USAF personnel or as outsiders trying
> to figure out what happened.
> 
If one uses this scenario, I would recommend using TNE rules (if
available).  That way, one can use Twilight: 2000 (ver 2.2) character
generation rules for the Solomani.  Gives more detailed pre-spaceflight
military characters.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:25:02 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Shipping Stuff

Daniel Phelps wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Mine landfills, etc. if you don't have access to fusion power.
>Bioremediation. Etc.

Mines,  landfills, etc. are storage solutions they don't necessary solve the
problem just contain it for the short term i.e. 10, 20, 50, 100 years.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The poster was using "mine" as a verb, not a noun. He meant that a
sufficiently high-tech society would dig up their own landfills, finding
them a rich source of raw materials for new industrial processes, 
especially with unexploited natural resources getting gradually used up.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:02:09 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser

This is for all you world builders out there.

I've just read about an area on Earth where radioactivity and
heat from the planet's core raise the temperature of stone
to a searing 120 degrees Fahrenheit, and the atmospheric
pressure is doubled. Poisonous methane and hydrogen seep
from the rock. Despite all this, people exist in the area for
hours on end every day.

Anybody care to guess what area I'm reading about?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 07:19:27 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser

I'm guessing deep gold or diamond mines.

Smart, David J (David) wrote:
> 
> This is for all you world builders out there.
> 
> I've just read about an area on Earth where radioactivity and
> heat from the planet's core raise the temperature of stone
> to a searing 120 degrees Fahrenheit, and the atmospheric
> pressure is doubled. Poisonous methane and hydrogen seep
> from the rock. Despite all this, people exist in the area for
> hours on end every day.
> 
> Anybody care to guess what area I'm reading about?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:26:05 -0400
From: scott brandsgaard <buzardb8@interport.net>
Subject: Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser

.mmm..

No. 5 Shaft in South Africa's East Driefontein gold mine.

http://www.discover.com/july_99/hell.html


>This is for all you world builders out there.
>
>I've just read about an area on Earth where radioactivity and
>heat from the planet's core raise the temperature of stone
>to a searing 120 degrees Fahrenheit, and the atmospheric
>pressure is doubled. Poisonous methane and hydrogen seep
>from the rock. Despite all this, people exist in the area for
>hours on end every day.
>
>Anybody care to guess what area I'm reading about?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 08:03:06 +0000
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Questions for a problem

William Barnett-Lewis wrote:
> 
> Hello all,
> I am exploring a possible Contact article for Pyramid (as in, if I can make
> it work I'll submit it ;). As a result I have a couple of questions:
> 
> 1) If a moon that circles a Gas Giant is tidally locked with that GG, how do
> you figure it's day/night cycle with reference to the system's primary?

If it's tidally locked, then it's day/night period is equal to it's orbital
period around the GG. _First In_ gives the formula P=sqrt(R^3/M) P= orbital
period in days, R is the orbital radius (in miles) and M = combined mass of
the pair, in Earth Mass = 1 units. There is a sidebar discussing this, on pp
62-63 of _First In_.
 
> 2) Platinum has a nasty high melting point. But what I don't know is how
> ductile it is... Could someone who found a surface deposit use it as our
> ancestors used copper? Also, what TL would be the absolute min to build a
> furnace capable of melting it?

Platinum is actually not very ductile at all, which is why it's not used more
in jewelry and suchlike (in fact, the only sush use is as white gold, a
platinum/gold alloy). It's unlikely that native platinum could be used like
copper was. This is also one reason that platinum wasn't considered very
valuable until other properties of the metal, such as it's utility in
catalysis, were found. 


> 3) Is there any possible reason for evolution to (seemingly ;) favor a
> quadrapedal form over a hexapedal form?


It's a considerably less complex system. I'm not sure of an environment where
hexapodal megafauna would have a distinct advantage. Perhaps in higher
gravity, or lower. Insects live in a very different environment than we
do...due to their vastly higher strength:weight ratios, and the unyielding (to
beings of their size and weight) environment in which they live. They're more
likely to get in situations where gravity doesn't help them stay where they
want to, so the added mechanical complexity of three sets of legs are needed
for traction and/or anchorage.

About the most that higher organisms have developed here are prehensile tails.
These are quite advanced and strong grasping appendages, and again, are
present in animals with high strength: weight ratios, such as many New World
monkeys, which live in arboreal environments where gravity isn't a friend.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:01:26 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Re : shipping stuff (becoming toxic waste)

Robert O'Connor wrote:

> > I was talking, at least in
> > part, about the social results.  Picture the political/economic results on a
> > populace who think in terms of radioactivity as leprosy.
> 
> Ahh, the majority of 'middle class Western' citizenry of late 20th
> century Terra, for example.
> 
> Ob Trav : what cultural quirks are present in the 3I with regard to
> technology (e.g. fission evil, tides and wind good?)
> 
> Robert O'Connor

Well, without going into the computer/cyber/the 3I is too lowtech
flamepit hell _again_, I'd suggest that they think that fission power is
quaint and dirty, sort of like how we view old fashioned steam engines
belching great clouds of smoke. With the advent of cheap fusion power,
just about _every_ other source of energy becomes sidelined.

At a guess, the 3I feels about cyberwear as 'leprosy', given it's
scarcity in the OTU. High-int robotics are probably viewed the same way.

It won't take but a couple of worlds grey-gooed to death to make
nanotech a _real_ dirty word.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:24:56 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser

"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:
> 
> This is for all you world builders out there.
> 
> I've just read about an area on Earth where radioactivity and
> heat from the planet's core raise the temperature of stone
> to a searing 120 degrees Fahrenheit, and the atmospheric
> pressure is doubled. Poisonous methane and hydrogen seep
> from the rock. Despite all this, people exist in the area for
> hours on end every day.
> 
> Anybody care to guess what area I'm reading about?

My first (and only) guess would be Yellowstone National Park....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:40:01 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: GEN CON UK & BITS

BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)

Just a quick reminder;

BITS will be at Gen Con UK 99 for all four normal days, and we will be
running three tournaments as usual. There'll also be the usual plethora of
demos and info, plus products to buy including the 101 books and Rob
Prior's MacOS software for Traveller.

This information hasn't made it to the RPGA website yet, and we've had a
few worried emails. Hopefully it'll be up soon...

So don't fret, we'll be there in September, with a selection of new releases...

BITS news @ http://www.bits.org.uk/

Dom (BITS webmaster)

- -------------Dom Mooney---webmaster@bits.org.uk----------------
                 BITS - British Isles Traveller Support.
 http://www.bits.org.uk/              mailto:bits@bits.org.uk
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
GURPS is a registered trademark of Steve Jackson Games, Inc.
BITS and CORE are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
All rights reserved.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1999 21:21:55 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: GT Resource Request

Does anyone know where on the web I can find a list of GT, 100 point, character
templates?

Has anyone else run The Long Way Home in GT and have any suggestions?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:16:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

In mail you write:

>> IIRC, the present or past Chairman of the Federal Reserve (forget which
>> guy) once said that it was cheaper to dispose of toxic waste in Third World
>> countries, because accidents were less costly there (and that it was good
>> for the countries, because they got some scarce foreign exchange at the
>> cost of some abundant people, or words to that effect). While I doubt he's
>> the only capitalist/economist to 'write off' Third World citizens like
>> that, he was more blatant than anyone else I've heard of.
>
> That is so cold-blooded. I love this as a bit for a Traveller  campaign.
> Typical Skin-monkey behavior, and I doubt Vilani Skin-monkeys are any more
> ethical than the Solomani, although I think the Zodhani are less likely to
> think this way due to their societal structure. Other forms of evil for that
> lot.

Given the conditions on Vland, I expect Vilani culture to have a
special horror for anything that contaminates food or water. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:19:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

In mail you write:

> Only one problem with the above scenario is that I expect that most nasty
> waste in Traveller gets dealt with just like we do it right now.    It gets
> burned in as hot a furnace as can be arranged.  In Traveller it would be
> dropped into the nearest nuclear furnace, a convenient star.  Now if you
> want to have a scenario where a loose load of radioactive waste, mega death
> in a large economy sized can, from a shifty but well connected company ends
> up on a collision course with a populated planet and everyone wants the
> problem settled quietly, before it hits the atmosphere if you don't mind,
> that is another story.

Actually, dumping stuff into a star is fairly difficult. To start with,
you need to kill the load's tangential velocity (orbital velocity)
*precisely*. It won't take much to turn that "impact" orbit into a near
miss which means that orbit later there's a nasty cloud of crud back
out there.

And just about every waste ever generated has *eventually* turned out
to be worth reprocessing for something. So instead of wasting 30-40
km/s of delta-V on trying to hit the star, invest maybe 10 km/s in
moving it to a generally useless asteroid or moon. If anybody ever
wants the stuff, it's there. And in the meantime it's a *long* ways
from anyplace important.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 09:34:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Questions for a problem

In mail you write:

> Hello all,
> I am exploring a possible Contact article for Pyramid (as in, if I can make
> it work I'll submit it ;). As a result I have a couple of questions:
>
> 1) If a moon that circles a Gas Giant is tidally locked with that GG, how do
> you figure it's day/night cycle with reference to the system's primary?

Roughly the same as it's orbital period around the GG. Just like the
day night cycle on *our* moon. 

For example, I seem to recall the day night cycle on Ganymede being
something like 3 or 4 days.

If you are on the side of the moon that faces the GG, you'll likely
have an "eclipse" of moderate duration at noon. The GG will be *much*
bigger than the sun though. So it'll be obvious, even to natives, that
the sun is going *behind* the GG.

> 2) Platinum has a nasty high melting point. But what I don't know is how
> ductile it is... Could someone who found a surface deposit use it as our
> ancestors used copper? Also, what TL would be the absolute min to build a
> furnace capable of melting it?

"Native" platinum is found as a mix of platinum, iridium, osmium and
related metals. Ductile it ain't. You could possibly bang it into
shape, but it'd be a *lot* harder than working copper. 

As far as I know, we weren't able to melt platinum until at least thye
late 1700s. I recall accounts of Spanish Conquistadores tossing
"silver" idols into melting pots and being amazed when they just sat
there! 

> 3) Is there any possible reason for evolution to (seemingly ;) favor a
> quadrapedal form over a hexapedal form?

Yep. Free-swimming fishes. It turns out that two sets of paired fins
(front and back) is both necessary and sufficient for maneuvering. When
amphibians developed from lungfish, the fins evolved into feet. 

A "middle" pair of fins would be wasted on a fish, so it's *really*
unlikely to survive as a trait long enough to make it to the land
animal stage, which is the first place it might be of use. 

The other "multi-legged" species are pretty much restricted to "near
water" or small size because of things like exoskeletons. So, sad to
say, centauroid aliens are unlikely except as the result of *major*
genetic manipulation somewhere along the line.

>
> Thanks in advance for all answers.
>
> William
>
> --
> Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
> as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
> road and may God's blessing be with           |
> you always.                                   |
> St. Claire                                    |
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 04:22:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

In mail you write:

>>What I was sort of getting at, leaving aside the bio/chem issue, is would
>>it be seen as realistic for bulk freighter to be transporting waste back
>>from non-Ag and industrial worlds for processing and use on Ag worlds ?  In
>>the case of Belizo, BtC says something about the vulcanism giving the soils
>>a rich texture and abundant productivity.  Ergo, would they really need the
>>waste products ?  3I farming techniques would surely take into account soil
>>productivity and its' tolerance for continued use.  That is, I'm sure that
>>they've worked out what crops to plant where to get the best yields, and
>>when to leave ground fallow.  If they have their techniques down pat, do
>>they really need all that fertilizer ?

Yes. The various elements in the *food* have to come from *somewhere*.
There's *not* that much organic material in soil. And even less usable
nitrogen compounds. 

And colonies on airless rocks need to do *something* with sewage after
recovering the water from it. If processed properly, they'll have a dry
material that can be compressed into blocks and shipped easily (once
wrapped). Of course you use radiation to sterilize it.

> Possibly not. OTOH, if the ship is going back there anyway, all you're
> paying is handling charges. This might make it economically worthwhile.

Most of the stuff you are paying for food with is likely to be high
mass, low volume materials like metals, ores, gems, etc. So you can
carry a lot of *high* volume, *low* mass dried sludge and still have a
cargo worth more than enough.

Frankly, I expect that both the Ag colony and the mining colony would
*prefer* that the waste gets carried back. 

>>Also, in the vein of your last sentence, would it be reasonable to assume
>>that industrial waste from primary and secondary industries is hauled back
>>to the point of origin of the raw materials ?  Would they haul back
>>chemical slag from the industrialised planets to the mining planets or
>>asteroid belts ?  Even in a really efficient production cycle, yer going to
>>have some waste products that can't be used or utilised on the
>>industrialised planets.

Actually, I think it'll be a rather exceptional case when *ore* is
carried between planets. It costs little to reduce the ore to metal,
ans shipping the metal is better than shipping the ore. 

Slag isn't neccessarily going to get produced the way it was in the
past. I think you'll find that the "wastes" will be a lot lower in
volume. I also expect that unless there's a *use* for them elsewhere,
they'll at most get hauled to some useless rock in the same system.

> ObTrav: A poor low tech planet, next to an industrial one, gets a waste
> reprocessing plant as foreign aid. The locals aren't told all the dangers
> by their leaders (who are busy fattening their offworld bank accounts) and
> the mortality rate is climbing, although no one knows quite why.
>
> The players are demobbed scouts, contacted by a friendly noble. They are
> asked to have a quiet poke around to determine if there is enough evidence
> to warrant Imperial intervention.
>
> The players can gather evidence, but there is nothing actually illegal
> going on (just unethical). Remember that the Imperium is laisser faire
> about things like this. Further actions will vary depending on the players.
> Commando raids, political action, public appeals, economic actions...

Well, waste reprocessing is one of the reasons that Traveller can't
really work. Given the available power levels and fusion technology,
it'd be practical to break *any* sort of waste into its component
elements.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #758
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Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 22 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 759



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)
Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser 
Re: Re : shipping stuff (becoming toxic waste)
re: Shipping Stuff
Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser..A WINNER!
Re: Parallel Mounted Weapons in FF&S2
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Questions for a problem
Re:Questions for a problem
GT Resource Request
The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: Evolution of number of legs (was Questions for a problem)
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
CHONPS and Taboo-tech in the 3I
Re: Triage
Re: Fanzines
Taboo-tech in the 3I
Re:Questions for a problem
Re: Space barbarians

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:42:03 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)

> From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
 
> > > From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
> > > Subject: Re: Shipping stuff
> >
> > > ObTrav: A poor low tech planet, next to an industrial one, gets a waste
> > > reprocessing plant as foreign aid. The locals aren't told all the
[deletion]
[I wrote the following:]
> > Does this make economic sense?  If you're going to send your waste
> > off-planet, why not just shove it towards the sun?  I guess it depends
> > on what the waste is.  Maybe there is something worth extracting from it
> > that justifies the expense.
[deletion]
[Eris wrote the following:] 
> Besides, the sun is off-planet. I think you mean out-system, another whole
> ballgame, much more expensive.

My point is then a fortiori.  The original facts were "one planet next
to another one"; that could mean in the same star system or different
systems.  Once you're going to the expense of getting the waste off one
planet, why not send it into the star?  Why either carry to another
planet in the same system (and spend labor and other costs making a safe
landing) or jump it to another system (with even greater labor and other
costs for a week in jump)?  The answer is that whatever is extracted
from the waste is valuable enough to justify the expense of a round trip
(either off-planet or out-system) plus processing, and of course the
volumes coming back will be smaller than those going out.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:57:12 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser 

> This is for all you world builders out there.
> 
> I've just read about an area on Earth where radioactivity and
> heat from the planet's core raise the temperature of stone
> to a searing 120 degrees Fahrenheit, and the atmospheric
> pressure is doubled. Poisonous methane and hydrogen seep
> from the rock. Despite all this, people exist in the area for
> hours on end every day.
> 
> Anybody care to guess what area I'm reading about?

East LA?

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:01:55 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Re : shipping stuff (becoming toxic waste)

Robert O'Connor wrote:

> D.C. Phelps wrote :-
>
> > If it is organic without an admixture
> > of metals, i.e. spent solvents,  biologicals, etc. it would still probably
> > get burned.  That is the simplest and most certain solution.
> >

Really, we need too be more specific about what we are getting rid of in order to
say it would be simple and certain to burn it. Some chemicals undergo strange
changes when heated.

>
>
> Squirt it into the nearest fusion pile and get CHONPS + halogens out the
> other side.
>

I know Hal O'Gen, but what are CHONPS? Squirt?

>
> <of landfills, etc. as temporary solutions for waste problems>:-
>
> > Unless other processes reduce the problem, natural degragation, half lives
> > of both radioactive and chemical decay etc. it is still there.
>
> Yes. So everyone knows where the stuff is.

Unless records are lost, or the stuff was buried secretly by the gov/corp.

>
> Perhaps later on someone can dig it back up and turn it into something
> useful (plentiful energy in the form of fusion power makes this easy).
> Or you could sink wells into it and tap off methane perhaps. Or
> introduce halophile or other extremophile bacteria to gently detoxify
> it.
>

Yeah! Remember earlier I mentioned those microbes living at 240 F, ingesting
uranium and sulfur and what-not, then excreting gold and more what-not? Combine
that tenacity of life with bio-engineered waste-processing critters! I know the
3I is less advanced in biotech than the Solomani, but they are way above "us"
"now".

>
> <on contamination >:-
> > I was talking, at least in
> > part, about the social results.  Picture the political/economic results on a
> > populace who think in terms of radioactivity as leprosy.
>
> Ahh, the majority of 'middle class Western' citizenry of late 20th
> century Terra, for example.
>
> Ob Trav : what cultural quirks are present in the 3I with regard to
> technology (e.g. fission evil, tides and wind good?)
>

Good query, and what about the same for the Sword Worlds, Aslan Hierate, Hivers,
Darrians, Zodhani, etc?

Chirping Elf
BZA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:57:37 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Shipping Stuff

Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And just about every waste ever generated has *eventually* turned out
to be worth reprocessing for something. So instead of wasting 30-40
km/s of delta-V on trying to hit the star, invest maybe 10 km/s in
moving it to a generally useless asteroid or moon. If anybody ever
wants the stuff, it's there. And in the meantime it's a *long* ways
from anyplace important.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And, with any luck, you can put a research station on the far side
of the moon from the wase dump...<weg>

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:14:59 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser..A WINNER!

scott brandsgaard posted:

>...mmm..
>
>No. 5 Shaft in South Africa's East Driefontein gold mine.
>
>http://www.discover.com/july_99/hell.html

DingDingDing! We have a winner! Scott, give
yourself a pat on the back. 'applauseapplause'

Bruce, you were exceedingly close and, Black
ICE, you made the same guess I did initially.

Thank you all for playing. :-)

The article the above link leads to is the one I
was reading. The conditions are so hellish that
air must be forced into the mines to allow the
miners to breathe (note: not breathe well, just
breathe) and watersprays are used to stop the
miners from slowly cooking..literally.

These conditions exist at the lowest levels of
the mine, around 2 miles deep.

Not a place filled with long-term prospects but
a great bit of detail for designing a world near
the inner limits of a star's habital orbit(s).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 10:52:18 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Parallel Mounted Weapons in FF&S2

> From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>

> >3.  Do all parallel mounts have to engage the same target?  If not, what
> >variation in firing arc is allowed?
> 
> This is unclear. Since the spinal mounts must have some sort of firing arc
> then I would assume that as long as both targets are in arc, then yes.
> However, that arc is not going to be very large. You might want to
> consider putting the weapons into very large custom bays or (or even
> turrets) for maximum flexibility.

Then they wouldn't be spinal mounts, would they?  The idea of a spinal
mount is that the ship is built around the weapon.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:05:32 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> Actually, dumping stuff into a star is fairly difficult. To start with,
> you need to kill the load's tangential velocity (orbital velocity)
> *precisely*. It won't take much to turn that "impact" orbit into a near
> miss which means that orbit later there's a nasty cloud of crud back
> out there.
> 
> And just about every waste ever generated has *eventually* turned out
> to be worth reprocessing for something. So instead of wasting 30-40
> km/s of delta-V on trying to hit the star, invest maybe 10 km/s in
> moving it to a generally useless asteroid or moon. If anybody ever
> wants the stuff, it's there. And in the meantime it's a *long* ways
> from anyplace important.

I don't see why it costs less to put the waste on a moon or asteroid. 
You also have to hit the moon or asteroid *precisely*, don't you? (And
they are a lot smaller than the star.)  In fact, you can't just hit it;
you have to land the stuff there and off-load it.  On the other hand,
you are correct that the waste would be recoverable if someday anybody
wants it.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 11:07:26 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Questions for a problem

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> The other "multi-legged" species are pretty much restricted to "near
> water" or small size because of things like exoskeletons. So, sad to
> say, centauroid aliens are unlikely except as the result of *major*
> genetic manipulation somewhere along the line.

Just as we thought:  The K'Kree were a hiver manipulation all along. 

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 19:27:04 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re:Questions for a problem

>1) If a moon that circles a Gas Giant is tidally locked with that GG, how do
>you figure it's day/night cycle with reference to the system's primary?

Hmmm, from back of envelope calculations, the answer seems to be the relativity
equation.

M = orbital period of moon around GG.
G = orbital period of GG around star.

Day length = M / (1-sqrt(M squared/G squared))

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:41:54 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: GT Resource Request

John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net> writes:
 >Does anyone know where on the web I can find a list of GT, 100 point, 
character
 >templates?

    If  you subscribe to Pyramid magazine, GURPS: Warriors is in playtest.
Lot's of military templates, including some for GURPS:Traveller.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/  Opinions Mine!
"In 1991, [Vice President] Gore cited Bush's China policy as a reason he
should be defeated for reelection, charging Bush sent his emissaries to
toast the butchers of Tiananmen Square.'"
Deborah Orin in the New York Post, March 26, 1997, the day after Gore
drank champagne with Chinese Premier Li Peng, who helped plan the
Tiananmen massacre
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 13:52:54 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

Is it me or has the average IQ of news reporters been
dropping over the last few decades?

A woman in my office has a son who's graduating from
Navy SEAL school at the end of this week. She was telling
me that once the students complete the program, a bunch
of other SEALs at the base have some kind of welcoming
party or something for them.

Anyway, one of the SEALs doing the welcoming is apparently
a sharpshooter with lots of confirmed kills. He was
interviewed by some reporter and asked "What do you feel
when you shoot The Bad Guys?".

His answer: "Recoil."

ObTrav: The players, after receiving widespread notoriety
for a recent escapade, are hounded by a reporter who
insists on asking the most asinine questions.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:08:56 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Evolution of number of legs (was Questions for a problem)

William Barnett-Lewis writes:
<snipped>
"3) Is there any possible reason for evolution to (seemingly ;) 
favor a quadrapedal form over a hexapedal form?"

Bruce Johnson responds:
<snipped>
"About the most that higher organisms have developed here are 
prehensile tails. These are quite advanced and strong grasping 
appendages, and again, are present in animals with high strength: 
weight ratios, such as many New World monkeys, which live in 
arboreal environments where gravity isn't a friend."

	One must be causious about drawing too many conclusions
	based on what we see on Terra circa now. It is quite
	possible that all terrestrial vertebrates have evolved
	from a single species of amphibian that hung out in the
	Devonian period (about 400 million years ago). That
	species appears to have had 4 legs, which greatly 
	constrains the possible paths that subsequent evolution
	might take. For example, there are no 4-legged birds even
	though many of them are terrestrial. Why? Even though 
	slight modifications to the fore-legs improved gliding 
	(and ultimately flying) ability, it is hard to imagine how
	slight modifications to the wings will improve quadrapedal 
	locomotion. Thus birds are stuck with two legs.

Leonard Erickson writes:
"Yep. Free-swimming fishes. It turns out that two sets of paired 
fins (front and back) is both necessary and sufficient for 
maneuvering. When amphibians developed from lungfish, the fins 
evolved into feet.

A "middle" pair of fins would be wasted on a fish, so it's 
*really* unlikely to survive as a trait long enough to make it 
to the land animal stage, which is the first place it might be 
of use.

The other "multi-legged" species are pretty much restricted to 
"near water" or small size because of things like exoskeletons. 
So, sad to say, centauroid aliens are unlikely except as the 
result of *major* genetic manipulation somewhere along the line.

	There are many aquatic animals that have a number of legs
	and/or fins that is different than 4. Certainly, the 
	vertebrate fish design is efficient, and as allowed this
	group to survive and diversify, but it may not be the only
	(or even the best) competitive design. There are those who
	have argued that animals much bigger than condors could not
	fly, that animals as big as Brontosaurus could not stand
	without water to support their weight, that insects are 
	restricted to their current maximum size because of their
	lack of lungs and an efficient circulation sustem. All of
	these arguments are demonstrably false. I can imagine, for
	example, animals on a swampy world evolving in shallow,
	root-choked water. These animals cannot swim freely, 
	instead use their 6 arms to climb on the tough roots of 
	the trees that rise out of the water above them. Eventually
	some find that they can survive for short periods climbing
	up on the tree's branches, safe from the predators below...

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 15:17:42 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

- -----Original Message-----
From: Smart, David J (David) <dasmart@lucent.com>
To: 'traveller@mpgn.com' <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 22, 1999 2:54 PM
Subject: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")


>Is it me or has the average IQ of news reporters been
>dropping over the last few decades?


It could be argued that the IQ of news *viewers* has been dropping over the
last few decades ;)

<some snippage of surrounding circumstances>

>Anyway, one of the SEALs doing the welcoming is apparently
>a sharpshooter with lots of confirmed kills. He was
>interviewed by some reporter and asked "What do you feel
>when you shoot The Bad Guys?".
>
>His answer: "Recoil."


For the life of me, I can't figure out why this is an asinine question.

The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people are *not* snipers
with lots of confirmed kills... myself included. It's entirely possible that
people who are not snipers with lots of confirmed kills might be interested
in what a sniper feels when he shoots the bad guys, if he feels anything at
all.

In fact, if I ever was in a situation where I personally felt comfortable
about asking a sniper with lots of kills what he feels when he pulls the
trigger, I would most likely ask..

What I would consider an asinine question would be something like "What sets
you apart from the average clocktower mass-murderer?" or a loaded and
childish question like "Do you think that you're a good role model for
children after the recent rash of high-school shootings?"

(Of course, the *real* question I would ask a SEAL if given the chance is:
"Does Charlie Sheen have what it takes?" but hey... that's another story.)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:31:21 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: CHONPS and Taboo-tech in the 3I

Hypercleats wrote:
> 
> Robert O'Connor wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> >
> > Squirt it into the nearest fusion pile and get CHONPS + halogens out the
> > other side.
> >
> 
> I know Hal O'Gen, but what are CHONPS? Squirt?
> 
The most common essential elements:  Carbon, Hydrogen, Oxygen, Nitrogen,
Phosphorus, and Sulfur.

<<snip>>
> >
> > <on contamination >:-
> > > I was talking, at least in
> > > part, about the social results.  Picture the political/economic results on a
> > > populace who think in terms of radioactivity as leprosy.

Of course, thinking of _leprosy_ (Hansen's disease) as leprosy (the
really icky diseases described in the Bible) is irrational....

> >
> > Ahh, the majority of 'middle class Western' citizenry of late 20th
> > century Terra, for example.
> >
> > Ob Trav : what cultural quirks are present in the 3I with regard to
> > technology (e.g. fission evil, tides and wind good?)
> >
Well, let's take a look at GURPS: Traveller, and see what technologies
they list that are less advanced in G:T than in standard GURPS TL.

1.  Medical technology.  "Braintaping and regeneration rays are
unavailable."  My guess is that the anti-psionic taboo precludes
research into braintaping.

2.  Beam weapon technology.  Nerve guns and stunners appear only at G:T
TL-12 (in other GURPS products, they appear at TL-10 and TL-9,
respectively).  Further, they are 10 times the standard GURPS cost. 
GURPS beam weapons not found at all in G:T include paralysis guns,
displacers ("tachyon shotguns"), and space-time disruptors (this list is
a sample only).  Displacers and space-time disruptors are probably not
included because the FTL paradigm of Traveller is incompatible with
these devices.  Note, however, that the other weapons in question (nerve
guns, stunners, and paralysis guns) all affect the nervous system of a
creature.  Again, the anti-psionic attitudes in the 3I probably prevent
(or at least retard) some research
into these areas.

<>skipping electronics and force field tech; the examples don't seem to
be due to any stigma<>

3.  Neural interface, implants, and cybernetics.  G:T explicitly states
that the rarity of these items (other than non-augmented prosthetic
devices) is due to "Imperial distrust for technology that smacks of
robotics or mind control ('Zhodani influences!')"  Again, these items
are related to the first two examples given, as all require a knowledge
of sophonts' nervous systems that could lead to what I would call
"psychoelectronics."  (While the term "psionics" was originally used to
describe just such electronically-enhanced psi powers, it has come to
refer to natural psi powers.  Thus, I have had to devise a new term.)  

> Good query, and what about the same for the Sword Worlds, Aslan Hierate, Hivers,
> Darrians, Zodhani, etc?
> 
Well, the Solomani Confederation would be _far_ less squeamish about
such things as "psychoelectronics", for a couple of reasons.  One, the
Solomani Confederation does _not_ border the Zhodani Consulate.  Two,
psychoelectronics might make it easier to run a
totalitar^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h highly centralized government.

As for the others, I leave them to the other members of the TML.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 14:08:25 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Triage

On 06/14/99 at 12:01 AM,  "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk> said:

>Triage splits casualties into three groups:-
>1. Those whose injuries are not serious (e.g. walking wounded) 
>2. Those who will probably die, or at least not benefit, from
    treatment.
>3. Casualties in need of immediate attention.

I'm no expert, but my understanding of Triage in disaster or
battlefield situations is a little different from what I've seen
posted.  There are three groups (well, really four groups if you
include those with minor injuries), and they are treated in this
order:

1.  Those who will probably live *if* they get immediate treatment.
    Treating them is the most efficient use of resources, if saving
    lives is the goal. 

2.  Those who will probably live even without *immediate* treatment.
    Get this group ambulatory (or at least transportable) and out
    of the danger area where more resources are available so their
    long term disabilities will be minimized.

3.  Those who will probably die even with immediate treatment.
    Don't waste valuable time or resources on them until you've
    saved as many lives as you can.  Just make them as comfortable
    as you can, knowing you probably won't save any of them.  It has
    always seemed heartless to me, but I can see the logic.
    
4.  Those with minor injuries who will certainly live.  Ignore them,
    let them treat themselves and each other, or remove them
    immediately from the danger zone.  Don't spend your medical
    resources on them in the emergency area.  Treat their non-life
    threatening wounds elsewhere if/and when time permits.

My understanding may be totally at odds with the way triage is
taught, but I thought I'd thrown my 2 cents out there.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 20:34:23 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Fanzines

On Tue, 22 Jun 1999 05:14:51 -0400 (EDT), James Brewer
<jwbrewer@ucsd.edu> wrote:

>Does anyone know of any Traveller fanzines that still exist or have they
>all been replaced by mailing lists and web sites.  I always liked fanzines
>despite their unevenness, (and the greater chance of getting something
>published).

You've already seen a reference to Freelance Traveller; as its
owner, let me toot my own horn a bit and say that (a) I try to
keep a level of quality worthy of the best of Traveller-gone-by,
and (b) in the probably about five years and two redesigns I've
managed it through, I've outright rejected exactly one article, a
fiction submission, for being a poorly-written and
thinly-diguised combination of D&D and Star Wars, rather than
being Traveller. I've worked with submitters to fine-tune
articles into a shape that I would be willing to publish them in,
and I will continue to do so. Have no fear about submitting your
work to Freelance Traveller; betting that you _won't_ be
published is 'taking the short end', and you're likely to lose
the bet.

My objectives are (a) to have the best Traveller site on the net
(and I have competition that makes me work at it, and keeps me
honest - not the least of which is my own host, The Traveller
Downport, at http://www.downport.com !) and (b) to ensure that
Traveller fans have at least one Traveller resource on the net
that they will feel good about visiting.

My idea of quality _material_ was formed by Traveller
publications such as the original Journal of the Traveller's Aid
Society and the MegaTraveller Digest, as well as the DGP
supplements. My idea of quality _writing_ was formed by
publications such as The New York Times, the Wall Street Journal,
TIME Magazine, and the old Byte and Computer Language magazines.
I've tried to make Freelance Traveller reflect both kinds of
quality. It helps to have as many top-notch Traveller writers as
I do allowing me to publish their material under the Freelance
Traveller masthead; I'd be nothing but another schlock toy web
site without them.

I'd like to think that, even though it's a web publication,
rather than paper-and-ink, Freelance Traveller holds true to the
ideals of the fanzine. Please, give it a visit, form your own
opinion, and let me know. I think you'll be happy; certainly, I
_hope_ you'll be happy.

I also think I'd better lay off before the rest of the list
starts throwing rotten vegetables at me! >:)

Oh, one more thing - while I'm not aware of other sites that are
structured to resemble 'zines, I do think you could do worse than
visiting some of the other Traveller sites out there.  There's
Downport, http://www.downport.com, which I mentioned above;
there's Carlos Alós-Ferrer's Geonee Sourcesite and Beyond The
Extents campaign site, at
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Station/8772/ ; there's the
Missouri Archive, run by Joe Heck, at
http://web.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/ ; there's David
"Hyphen" Jacques-Watson's (I _think_ that's how his name is
spelled) pages at http://www.pcug.org.au/~davidjw/ ; and there's
loads of other good sites out there - just start following the
Traveller Web Ring links, and the links on the links pages of any
of the Traveller sites you visit.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:40:57 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Taboo-tech in the 3I

Is the following possible???

> GURPS Traveller : Alien Technology
> Coming in March 2002

> Written by David Pulver 

> Technologically, the Third Imperium may be the most 
> advanced space-faring empire in charted space. At 
> the same time, certain equipment that is scientifically 
> viable is almost non-existent in Imperial space. Any 
> knowledge that can be even loosely associated with 
> mind control is culturally forbidden. Because of this, 
> nerve guns and stunners, braintapes, neural interfaces, 
> implants, and cybernetics are the purview of Alien 
> cultures. 

> Alien Technology provides rules for devices that are 
> taboo in the traditional Third Imperium Traveller setting. 
> Many items from GURPS Ultra-Tech and Ultra-Tech 2 
> are included, with additional support material providing 
> background to link the technologies to alien races 
> outside for the Imperium.

> 144 pages. Suggested retail price $20.95

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 21:56:48 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re:Questions for a problem

>>1) If a moon that circles a Gas Giant is tidally locked with that GG, how do
>>you figure it's day/night cycle with reference to the system's primary?

>M = orbital period of moon around GG.
>G = orbital period of GG around star.
>Day length = M / (1-sqrt(M squared/G squared))

Using the figures for Earth/moon I got exactly the right answer(to 4 decimals).

Earth Year = 365.26 days
Moon Sidereal period = 27.3217 days
Full Moon to full moon = 29.5306 days

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 16:02:55 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Space barbarians

On 06/15/99 at 03:42 PM,  Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:

>Wow, Thanks to this I found an awesome resource:

>http://www.sfsite.com/isfdb/

>A huge searchable database of SF author and title informaton.

>The Space Prison was originally released as 

>The Survivors, by Gnome Press, 1958. 

Ah, that helps!  I didn't think the book *I* read as a kid was called _Space Prison_, but I remembered the plot you guys were discussing. I'd forgotten who wrote it and could never find _The Survivors_ after I grew up and started looking for it...

>Rereleased (presumably as paperback) by Pyramid as Space Prison
>(1960)

...now I know why. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #759
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 22 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 760



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser
Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser
Re: Taboo-tech in the 3I
The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Platinum
Re: [ship] Experimental Scout
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: The Uplift Question
First In - Aion homeworld errata
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
GURPS: Warriors (Re: GT Resource Request)
Re: First In - Aion homeworld errata
Re: Questions for a problem
Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)
Thanks!
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Taboo-tech in the 3I
SW
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: Taboo-tech in the 3I
Re: Parallel Mounted Weapons in FF&S2

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:05:37 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser

In a message dated 6/22/99 9:08:31 AM US Eastern Standard Time, 
dasmart@lucent.com writes:

> This is for all you world builders out there.
>  
>  I've just read about an area on Earth where radioactivity and
>  heat from the planet's core raise the temperature of stone
>  to a searing 120 degrees Fahrenheit, and the atmospheric
>  pressure is doubled. Poisonous methane and hydrogen seep
>  from the rock. Despite all this, people exist in the area for
>  hours on end every day.
>  
>  Anybody care to guess what area I'm reading about?

Yellowstone?

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:15:09 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser

Keven R. Pittsinger japed:

>> This is for all you world builders out there.
>> 
>> I've just read about an area on Earth where radioactivity and
>> heat from the planet's core raise the temperature of stone
>> to a searing 120 degrees Fahrenheit, and the atmospheric
>> pressure is doubled. Poisonous methane and hydrogen seep
>> from the rock. Despite all this, people exist in the area for
>> hours on end every day.
>> 
>> Anybody care to guess what area I'm reading about?
>
>East LA?

Sorry.

Although the temp and seepage fit, the atmosphere
is merely oppressive. It just *feels* like the
pressure is doubled.

Nice try, though.  ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:26:18 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Taboo-tech in the 3I

Paul Schirf posted:
>
>Is the following possible???
>
>> GURPS Traveller : Alien Technology
>> Coming in March 2002

Oh, I hope so!

Neural links were first written up in one of
GDW's JTAS publications, stun carbines
were featured in one of the adventures, and
a gravity rifle (I think) in one of DGP's
adventures. I'd love to see what old/new
devices are going to be made available for G:T
and how they're handled for game balance.

Of course, 3 years is a little long to wait
but, hey, good things come to he who waits,
right?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:24:20 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

> From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>

> Anyway, one of the SEALs doing the welcoming is apparently
> a sharpshooter with lots of confirmed kills. He was
> interviewed by some reporter and asked "What do you feel
> when you shoot The Bad Guys?".
> 
> His answer: "Recoil."
> 
> ObTrav: The players, after receiving widespread notoriety
> for a recent escapade, are hounded by a reporter who
> insists on asking the most asinine questions.

What is asinine about that question?  

Your Traveller idea is good, and you can play it either way.  The PCs
can be hounded by an insipid journalist who really doesn't understand
what they do for a living and how it is for the benefit of their
employer.  That NPC can be annoying and possibly dangerous if he or she
learns anything important that should be kept secret (like which laws
were broken on that recent escapade, and by whom).  On the other hand,
the PCs could be playing reporters playing dumb to get real information,
or it could just be their cover story that they are reporters.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:52:38 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Platinum

Was written:

>Platinum appears in only small amounts in the richest ore bodies on
>Earth - roughly one gram of metal per 1000kg of ore.
>
>A rich surface deposit would most likely be an old asteroidal impact
>site.

I don't know enough about asteroidal impact sites to say one way or  the
other but  placer deposits proximal to the weathered remains of one of the
very rich ore bodies cited above would be a possibility.   Sedimentary
processes could concentrate the metal from the primary body in rich enough
quantities to be worth extracting.  If I remember correctly I read or was
told about a site like this which occurs some where in Alaska.  The metal in
the primary body is low grade and not economical to mine but placers
proximal to it were rich enough but not extremely extensive.   Plar

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 18:52:15 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: [ship] Experimental Scout

On 17 Jun, Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com> wrote:
<snip>
> I am thinking about deckplans, but I need to think some more...
> 13.5 m**3 per ton, but what is the height of a standard room, 3 meters?

the standard dton is

          2m x 2m x 3.5m (=14m^3)
or        1.5m x 3m x 3m (=13.5m^3)

When I did the deckplans for the Pioneer Ecks, I allocated deck squares
to life support and grav compensators.

I'm intending to claim that ship as a prototype. If I ever do the
Pioneer Ecks Eye, I'd use a 3.5m inter deck gap and put all the
grav compensation and life support in the space between the decks.

Remembering that half the volume of your staterooms is available for
common rooms and corridors should provide enough space.

Phil Kitching

- -- 
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technology Division
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the galaxy."
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/traveller/deckplans/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 18:18:50 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
> 
> > From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
<Snipped>

> Your Traveller idea is good, and you can play it either way.  The PCs
> can be hounded by an insipid journalist who really doesn't understand
> what they do for a living and how it is for the benefit of their
> employer.  That NPC can be annoying and possibly dangerous if he or she
> learns anything important that should be kept secret (like which laws
> were broken on that recent escapade, and by whom).  On the other hand,
> the PCs could be playing reporters playing dumb to get real information,
> or it could just be their cover story that they are reporters.
> 
> --Glenn

A good example of this type of NPC was in the Alacrity FitzHugh (sic?)
set of books. The reporter began writing "penny dreadfuls", similar to
the Buffalo Bill books, etc. This immediately led to several situations,
some in which their reputations actually acted to their advantage,
scaring locals etc. and numerous others that worked against them when
youngesters etc. came gunning for them, etc. For the most part the books
were total fiction but the reputation attached to the characters stuck. 
- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 17:46:16 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

On 06/15/99 at 11:30 PM,  Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com> said:

>At 03:09 PM 6/15/99 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>I expect that most of the satellite networks are placed by folks for
>>*free*, because they plan to make their profits selling the phones and
>>receivers. Even worlds with class E or X ports could have a satellite
>>network. The corporation that owned the satellites would just have
>>ships visit every so often (6 months? a year?) to check the satellites,
>>and see if the folks at the trading post needed more stock or parts for
>>repairing damaged ground units. 

>Cell phone companies not only put up cell towers for free (and offer
>free phones), but they are willing to fight for the right to put up
>towers.  I am not trying to get political, only to point out that
>current economic practices show that this is true. Current laws (in
>NY at least) mandate that areas w/o cell phone coverage get towers
>put up so you can dial 911 from anywhere. The cell phone companies
>are falling over each other to find good sites in my area.

No laws requiring them here, but the cell compaines are rushing to
create overlapping tower fields.  However, several neighborhoods
down here are complaining loudly that they don't want "those
unsightly towers in *their* neighborhoods!"  They say the towers
lower property values.  Just a reminder that almost any new
technology will have opponents with good (and not so good) reasons
for opposing it.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:57:13 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: First In - Aion homeworld errata

Using First In rules the Aion homeworld cannot be the fourth planet in a K3
system, which is way outside the biozone.  The third planet would be just
outside the biozone as required, and as hinted at by planet two being the only
planet in the biozone.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:27:42 -0700
From: "Wayne" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

> the SEALs doing the welcoming is apparently
> a sharpshooter with lots of confirmed kills. He was
> interviewed by some reporter and asked "What do you feel
> when you shoot The Bad Guys?".
> 
> His answer: "Recoil."

ROTFLMAOASTC

I like this sailors attitude.

Wayne (CT/HG Tampler wanna-be)
wewart@home.com
icq22113294

Give a man fire and he is warm for the night.
Set a man on fire and he is warm all his life.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 16:38:53 -0700
From: Keith Johnson <kejohnson@2xtreme.net>
Subject: GURPS: Warriors (Re: GT Resource Request)

>Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 14:41:54 -0400
>From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
>Subject: GT Resource Request
>
>John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net> writes:
> >Does anyone know where on the web I can find a list of GT, 100 point, 
>character
> >templates?
>
>    If  you subscribe to Pyramid magazine, GURPS: Warriors is in playtest.
>Lot's of military templates, including some for GURPS:Traveller.

Unfortunately, Warriors left playtest over a week ago.  It should be in
stores next month.

_____________________________________________________________
Rev. Keith Johnson      /\     keith@sjgames.com
Assistant Webmaster    /()\    kejohnson@2xtreme.net
Steve Jackson Games   /____\   reverendkeith@hotmail.com

             http://www.sjgames.com/

 IMTU tm+ t4+@ tg++$ ru-- ge-@ st+ pi+ he+ dr+ hi-@ zh+

"I don't practice what I preach, because I'm not the kind
of person I'm preaching to." - J.R. "Bob" Dobbs in Newsweek
_____________________________________________________________ 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 20:02:52 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: First In - Aion homeworld errata

In a message dated 6/22/99 5:54:06 PM US Eastern Standard Time, 
John.Buston@tesco.net writes:

> Using First In rules the Aion homeworld cannot be the fourth planet in a K3
>  system, which is way outside the biozone.  The third planet would be just
>  outside the biozone as required, and as hinted at by planet two being the 
> only
>  planet in the biozone.

Only in this crowd would someone submit an erratum for a vignette :-).

Point noted.  When I have time (yeah, right) I'll decide whether this actually
warrants an erratum or not.  Its already been pointed out to me that the
rules for placing orbits are a bit too grainy -- if you tinker with the Bode
constant you can probably design systems where the planets are more
closely spaced.  A K3 V isn't going to have a very wide life zone, though.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:02:40 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Questions for a problem

Dear Folks -

William asked:
>1) If a moon that circles a Gas Giant is tidally locked with that GG, how
do
>you figure it's day/night cycle with reference to the system's primary?

The moon's "day" is the same duration as its orbital period. Next, (drawing
on what I did for Tavonni), work out the length of the gas giant's
shadow-cone. Check if the moon's orbit is greater than the shadow-cone. If
not, there will be periods of total eclipse. Work out the length of the arc
that falls within the cone, then work out how long the moon is in shadow -
this becomes a short second "night". BTW, when mapping the world just draw
it normally. Don't bother drawing the world as you would a world that is
tidally-locked to its star - from the star's POV, the moon still rotates,
and there *is* day and night.

>2) Platinum has a nasty high melting point. But what I don't know is how

Pass. This is one for the chemists on the list. ;-)

>3) Is there any possible reason for evolution to (seemingly ;) favor a
>quadrapedal form over a hexapedal form?

One for our biologists, I think, but my guess is something to do with the
inverse-square "law" (plus simplicity of the creature's construction).
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:35:29 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)

> My point is then a fortiori.  The original facts were "one planet next
> to another one"; that could mean in the same star system or different
> systems.

There is a big difference between the two.

>  Once you're going to the expense of getting the waste off one
> planet, why not send it into the star?

Someone posted that it would be difficult to get it to not orbit the star. That
seems odd to me, but the guy is obviously quite educated, and I know squat on
orbital dynamics.But I am with you on star-dumping for anything completely
useless AND excessively dangerous.

>  Why either carry to another
> planet in the same system (and spend labor and other costs making a safe
> landing)

We need to make a safe landing for dumping?

> or jump it to another system (with even greater labor and other
> costs for a week in jump)?

Now THAT'S expensive.

>  The answer is that whatever is extracted
> from the waste is valuable enough to justify the expense of a round trip

Unless we are just dumping.

>
> (either off-planet or out-system) plus processing, and of course the
> volumes coming back will be smaller than those going out.
>
> --Glenn

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:38:02 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Thanks!

Dear Folks -

Thanks go to Jeff for the plug for my site!

(and I haven't even updated it for ages - groan!)

Oh, and if you are interested, "Jaques" (no 'c') turns out to be English,
not French - Cornwall, I think. *Probably* a corruption of a Norman name,
but it goes back at least as far as the Crusades, where a Jaques was
knighted on the field.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 17:44:16 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:

> > From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
> > Actually, dumping stuff into a star is fairly difficult. To start with,
> > you need to kill the load's tangential velocity (orbital velocity)
> > *precisely*. It won't take much to turn that "impact" orbit into a near
> > miss which means that orbit later there's a nasty cloud of crud back
> > out there.

This would be bad. Very bad. But I thought it would be harder to NOT hit the
star.

>
> >
> > And just about every waste ever generated has *eventually* turned out
> > to be worth reprocessing for something. So instead of wasting 30-40
> > km/s of delta-V on trying to hit the star, invest maybe 10 km/s in
> > moving it to a generally useless asteroid or moon. If anybody ever
> > wants the stuff, it's there. And in the meantime it's a *long* ways
> > from anyplace important.

I like this idea, like that awful "Soldier" movie. Waste disposal planets
make for interesting adventure settings.

>
>
> I don't see why it costs less to put the waste on a moon or asteroid.
> You also have to hit the moon or asteroid *precisely*, don't you? (And
> they are a lot smaller than the star.)

But they may be alot closer.

>  In fact, you can't just hit it;
> you have to land the stuff there and off-load it.

Not with everything.

>  On the other hand,
> you are correct that the waste would be recoverable if someday anybody
> wants it.
>
> --Glenn

And it would be there even if you wish it wern't, choose wisely. Heh heh
heh.
BZA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 19:59:13 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Taboo-tech in the 3I

- ----------
> From: Paul Schirf <pc@perkworks.com>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Taboo-tech in the 3I
> Date: Tuesday, 22 June, 1999 4:40 PM
> 
> Is the following possible???

Probably not, mainly because Pulver is now a full-time employee of another
company (Guardians of Order?) doing anime-related game stuff.  His contract
allows him to work on some GURPS books, but only those specified ahead of
time.  By 2002, things may change, but I wouldn't count on it.
 
> > GURPS Traveller : Alien Technology
> > Coming in March 2002
> 
> > Written by David Pulver 
[snip]

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:57:37 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: SW

Dear Folks -

Well.

[pause]

So, _that_ was Star Wars.



[longer pause to assimilate visual images]



Wow!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 18:17:41 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

Ian Ferguson wrote:

> William Barnett-Lewis writes:
> <snipped>
> "3) Is there any possible reason for evolution to (seemingly ;)
> favor a quadrapedal form over a hexapedal form?"

I am glad to see this thread morph into such informative discussion.
Missiles bore me, aliens are cool. (Beavis giggle)

>
>
> Bruce Johnson responds:
> <snipped>
> "About the most that higher organisms have developed here are
> prehensile tails. These are quite advanced and strong grasping
> appendages, and again, are present in animals with high strength:
> weight ratios, such as many New World monkeys, which live in
> arboreal environments where gravity isn't a friend."

Thus it is nice to have another "grabber", but this deeloped later and
is not a limb. Imagine a prehensile tail on, oh, say a bird type critter
that is marsupial. Now that sounds alien with terran proven forms.

>
>
>         One must be causious about drawing too many conclusions
>         based on what we see on Terra circa now.

Amen.

> It is quite
>         possible that all terrestrial vertebrates have evolved
>         from a single species of amphibian that hung out in the
>         Devonian period (about 400 million years ago).

Only one? Wow!

> That
>         species appears to have had 4 legs, which greatly
>         constrains the possible paths that subsequent evolution
>         might take. For example, there are no 4-legged birds even
>         though many of them are terrestrial. Why?

Because the other two are wings. They WERE legs once, it was a sacrifice
for flight.

> Even though
>         slight modifications to the fore-legs improved gliding
>         (and ultimately flying) ability, it is hard to imagine how
>         slight modifications to the wings will improve quadrapedal
>         locomotion. Thus birds are stuck with two legs.

They can't grow new limbs this late in their development.

>
>
> Leonard Erickson writes:
> "Yep. Free-swimming fishes. It turns out that two sets of paired
> fins (front and back) is both necessary and sufficient for
> maneuvering. When amphibians developed from lungfish, the fins
> evolved into feet.

O.K. I like this, but what about life evolved on a more arid planet? Or
in gas giants like the Jgd? BTW, are they really canonical? my arbiter
never even mentioned them.

>
>
> A "middle" pair of fins would be wasted on a fish, so it's
> *really* unlikely to survive as a trait long enough to make it
> to the land animal stage, which is the first place it might be
> of use.

But how about a catfish like critter which evolves prehensile whiskers?

>
>
> The other "multi-legged" species are pretty much restricted to
> "near water" or small size because of things like exoskeletons.

Is there any reason endoskeletons exclude exoskelotons? The terrapins
come to mind, as do armadillos.

>
> So, sad to say, centauroid aliens are unlikely except as the
> result of *major* genetic manipulation somewhere along the line.
>
>         There are many aquatic animals that have a number of legs
>         and/or fins that is different than 4. Certainly, the
>         vertebrate fish design is efficient, and as allowed this
>         group to survive and diversify, but it may not be the only
>         (or even the best) competitive design. There are those who
>         have argued that animals much bigger than condors could not
>         fly, that animals as big as Brontosaurus could not stand
>         without water to support their weight, that insects are
>         restricted to their current maximum size because of their
>         lack of lungs and an efficient circulation sustem. All of
>         these arguments are demonstrably false.

Now wait a sec, isn't the last bit about insects true? I know the others
have been disproven, and that bugs used to be bigger, but not elephant
sized.

> I can imagine, for
>         example, animals on a swampy world evolving in shallow,
>         root-choked water. These animals cannot swim freely,
>         instead use their 6 arms to climb on the tough roots of
>         the trees that rise out of the water above them. Eventually
>         some find that they can survive for short periods climbing
>         up on the tree's branches, safe from the predators below...
>
> Peez

Now that is a wonderful idea. But we always seem to go to even numbers
on limbs. What about asymetrical designs like some starfish? And has
anyone heard of trichordates, presumably some ancient extinct life form
whom I assume to have three spines.

Can't wait to hear what theories THIS stirs up. :)
BZA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 18:48:14 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Taboo-tech in the 3I

>From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: CHONPS and Taboo-tech in the 3I
.
>Well, the Solomani Confederation would be _far_ less squeamish about
>such things as "psychoelectronics", for a couple of reasons.  One, the
>Solomani Confederation does _not_ border the Zhodani Consulate.  Two,
>psychoelectronics might make it easier to run a
>totalitar^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h highly centralized government.

  An amusing comment that came up last week in discussing the political economy
of C.J. Cherryh's Alliance/Union background:
  
 i) "It would be hard for someone in the Union to tell if they were living
in a utopia or a dystopia"

 ii) "And they would have a tape for them if they could tell"

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 20:45:51 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Parallel Mounted Weapons in FF&S2

At 08:50 PM 6/21/99 -0500, you wrote:
>What limitations are there on parallel-mount weapons in FF&S2? 
>Specifically:

	Speaking through my hat:

>1.  Is there a limit (other than tonnage) to the number of parallel
>mounts?

	Errr ... I don't believe so. Spinal mounts, yes, one per customer.
But smaller parallel mounts ... If you want to be a true gearhead,
draw the hull up and make sure you can fit them all in. Pay especial
attention to the cross-section to make sure all the gunports fit in.

>2.  Can a single ship mount both meson gun and PAW parallel mounts?

	Why not? Again, if they fit.
>3.  Do all parallel mounts have to engage the same target?  If not,
what
>variation in firing arc is allowed?

	Parallel mounts are fixed, IIRC, and point with the ship. Ergo, they
all have to engage the same target ... unless you mount them with an
offset between them. But in that case, the second target would have
to be in just the perfect position relative to the first. I can
probably be convinced you can tweak the beams slightly as they exit
the accelerator to allow minute variations in targeting, but not much
more.

	If you want to aim them separately, make'em big honking bays.

>The AuricTech Shipyards Concept Bureau has just designed a 60,000
dton
>cruiser, TL-15, with two parallel-mount NPAWs, and four
parallel-mount
>meson guns, and the Concept Bureau chief would like to know whether
this
>is allowed under FF&S2.

	Yoicks!
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #760
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 23 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 761



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: Gearhead Question (Slightly OT)
Re: Gearhead Question (Slightly OT)
Re: The Military & the Media...
Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser..A WINNER!
Hexagons
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: Hexagons
Re: Hexagons
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
First In: Problems with WorldGen

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 20:07:45 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

Hypercleats wrote:
> 
> Ian Ferguson wrote:
> 
> > William Barnett-Lewis writes:
> > <snipped>
> > "3) Is there any possible reason for evolution to (seemingly ;)
> > favor a quadrapedal form over a hexapedal form?"
> 
> I am glad to see this thread morph into such informative discussion.
> Missiles bore me, aliens are cool. (Beavis giggle)
> 

I saw something recently on either Discovery channel or The Learning
Channel about the development of robots. Various robot designs have been
tried. It turns out that the four-legged ones offer the best combination
of stability and power usage.

The six-legged robots were stable, but required too much power for
motion. The power required increased exponentially the larger the robots
got, which might explain why the only species on Earth that have six
legs are very small. 

The two-legged ones were the most unstable (read: required the most
computing power for balancing acts) but offered the lowest power
requirement for locomotion.

I couldn't stop laughing at the hopping one-legged robots, so I won't
comment further on them.

I'm no biologist, but it seems to me that any ground-dwelling species
will evolve the same way. Natural selection will eliminate all but the
most efficient designs, given enough time.

> > That
> >         species appears to have had 4 legs, which greatly
> >         constrains the possible paths that subsequent evolution
> >         might take. For example, there are no 4-legged birds even
> >         though many of them are terrestrial. Why?
> 
> Because the other two are wings. They WERE legs once, it was a sacrifice
> for flight.
> 

This gets back to the recently popular theory that birds evolved from
dinosaurs (and that theory was popular even before a certain movie came
along).

> > Even though
> >         slight modifications to the fore-legs improved gliding
> >         (and ultimately flying) ability, it is hard to imagine how
> >         slight modifications to the wings will improve quadrapedal
> >         locomotion. Thus birds are stuck with two legs.
> 
> They can't grow new limbs this late in their development.
> 

Sure they can. It is possible for a mutant bird to be hatched with two
extra limbs. However, unless these limbs give that bird an advantage
over its peers, it won't survive long enough to breed. 

> O.K. I like this, but what about life evolved on a more arid planet? Or
> in gas giants like the Jgd? BTW, are they really canonical? my arbiter
> never even mentioned them.
> 

The Jagd are mentioned in one of the JTAS issues. I guess that's
canonical, since GDW created them.

> > A "middle" pair of fins would be wasted on a fish, so it's
> > *really* unlikely to survive as a trait long enough to make it
> > to the land animal stage, which is the first place it might be
> > of use.
> 
> But how about a catfish like critter which evolves prehensile whiskers?
> 

Or how about a six-legged insect that, over generations, gets larger and
larger? As it does so, two of its legs shrink into prehensile stubs,
like what happened to our toes.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 22:28:50 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!

On 06/18/99 at 05:10 PM,  Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com> said:

>At 09:41 AM 6/18/99 -0400, you wrote:
><snip>
>>film is based on the popular role-playing game of the same name by TSR, Inc.,
>>and is being produced by Silver Pictures, Sweetpea Entertainment and J&M.
><snip>

>Well, let's see if Sweetpea can do better with D&D than with T4.

I hope so.  

Seriously, I hope the movie gets made and turns out to be a critical
and financial success.  Given that Sweetpea has media rights to
Traveller, a hit with D&D makes a Traveller film a stronger
possibility, and that would be "a good thing"...we can only hope.  I
don't expect it, but I can hope.


Eris, who says
 "Unexpected run-away smash hit!"
 "Boffo!"
 "I laughed, I cried!"
 "Outrageous Action!" 
 "Give it four shields!"
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 20:36:35 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

>
> I saw something recently on either Discovery channel or The Learning
> Channel about the development of robots. Various robot designs have been
> tried. It turns out that the four-legged ones offer the best combination
> of stability and power usage.

What about tripods?

>
> The six-legged robots were stable, but required too much power for
> motion. The power required increased exponentially the larger the robots
> got, which might explain why the only species on Earth that have six
> legs are very small.

Sounds nigh on irrefutable to me.

>
>
> The two-legged ones were the most unstable

That's what I hear  ;)

> I couldn't stop laughing at the hopping one-legged robots, so I won't
> comment further on them.

I've seen them! Aren't they silly! :D

>
>
> I'm no biologist, but it seems to me that any ground-dwelling species
> will evolve the same way. Natural selection will eliminate all but the
> most efficient designs, given enough time.
>

Now this is a good framework to go from. But some alien life may exist in a
more viscous medium than water or air. I think they might have some more
leniency given to their form. Maybe?

>
> > >         constrains the possible paths that subsequent evolution
> > >         might take. For example, there are no 4-legged birds even
> > >         though many of them are terrestrial. Why?
> >
> > Because the other two are wings. They WERE legs once, it was a sacrifice
> > for flight.
> >
>
> This gets back to the recently popular theory that birds evolved from
> dinosaurs (and that theory was popular even before a certain movie came
> along).
>

CHIRP! Yes, my people have known this for aeons... ;)

>
>
> > They can't grow new limbs this late in their development.
> >
>
> Sure they can. It is possible for a mutant bird to be hatched with two
> extra limbs. However, unless these limbs give that bird an advantage
> over its peers, it won't survive long enough to breed.

Right. What I should have said(typed?) was it was a rather drastic mutation
with a much lower chance of being "functional". Limbs are what I would
classify as a major morphological structure. I am not a biologist but the
only more broad form choice I can think of is linear spine or perhaps
bilateral in general.

>
>
> > O.K. I like this, but what about life evolved on a more arid planet? Or
> > in gas giants like the Jgd? BTW, are they really canonical? my arbiter
> > never even mentioned them.
> >
>
> The Jagd are mentioned in one of the JTAS issues. I guess that's
> canonical, since GDW created them.

O.K. by me!

>
> Or how about a six-legged insect that, over generations, gets larger and
> larger? As it does so, two of its legs shrink into prehensile stubs,
> like what happened to our toes.
>

Cool! Now the question is fore, mid, or hind? I imagine shortened forelimbs
would be prone to adapt to food-gathering, while the hindmost would probably
be best used to secure traction. The mid limbs, other than possibly being
wings or struts for some kind of gliding membrane between fore and hind
limbs, baffle me. Anyone? I am intrigued.

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 22:53:04 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Gearhead Question (Slightly OT)

On 06/20/99 at 06:13 PM,  Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net> said:

>Here is the question:  If using stutterwarp as the FTL drive, will
>using artificial gravity disrupt its efficiency?

IMTU, it doesn't. However, in your TU it can work however
*you* want it to. 

>I have been unable to locate a ruling on this as written in FFS1.  It
>simply states that it needs a large body to discharge near.

I use stutterwarp, but limit it to STL in my games, it's my
"reactionless thruster."  FTL is still jump drive.  By limiting
stutterwarp's pseudo-velocity (fastest in "known space" is 6000 kps)
I don't have to worry about the discharging bit.  I also get to keep
a more "Travellerisk" feel with the one week in jump.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 99 23:07:59 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Gearhead Question (Slightly OT)

On 06/21/99 at 02:47 AM,  GypsyComet@aol.com said:

>Since you are doing your own setting, the tech interacts the way
>you want/need it to.  You can set the discharge range for your
>stutterwarp (7 lightyears for 2300AD, several years for Star Trek,
>who knows for Dominic Flandry's "Hooligan"), how it interacts with
>artificial gravity vs. natural, what rates of travel are possible,
>etc.  

>Bottom line.  Make it up.  Then write it down.  Otherwise
>you'll never be able to relate it to your
>players/readers/whatever...

Exactly!  And writing it down is a *very* good idea. ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:31:07 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 5:17 AM
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")


>
> <some snippage of surrounding circumstances>
>
> >Anyway, one of the SEALs doing the welcoming is apparently
> >a sharpshooter with lots of confirmed kills. He was
> >interviewed by some reporter and asked "What do you feel
> >when you shoot The Bad Guys?".
> >
> >His answer: "Recoil."
>
>
> For the life of me, I can't figure out why this is an asinine question.
>
> The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people are *not*
snipers
> with lots of confirmed kills... myself included. It's entirely possible
that
> people who are not snipers with lots of confirmed kills might be
interested
> in what a sniper feels when he shoots the bad guys, if he feels anything
at
> all.
>

Agreed, there are more than a handful of movies about where one of the dark
heroes is forced to answer that question himself everytime he uses his
skill... makes him think, makes the viewer think...

>
> (Of course, the *real* question I would ask a SEAL if given the chance is:
> "Does Charlie Sheen have what it takes?" but hey... that's another story.)
>

Heheheheh... that would be a good question!  I like it.  Does anyone know a
sniper with a shitload of conformed kills??

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 99 00:05:56 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser..A WINNER!

On 06/22/99 at 01:14 PM,  "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com> said:

>scott brandsgaard posted:

>>...mmm..
>>
>>No. 5 Shaft in South Africa's East Driefontein gold mine.

>DingDingDing! We have a winner! Scott, give
>yourself a pat on the back. 'applauseapplause'

>Bruce, you were exceedingly close and, Black
>ICE, you made the same guess I did initially.

You know, I suspect you can find similar conditions around various
hot springs too.  Heck, you'll find people *paying* big bucks to
soak themselves in them.  Of course, instead of methane you're more
likely to get the strong smells of sulfur.  ;-p

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 01:17:34 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Hexagons

bizarre questions:

The Traveller reasoning; I am moving stars out of the center of their
hexagons in order to make more believable star maps. I figure I will
move them 1% of a hex towards the right for each
((random number from 0 to 99) - 50) and 1% towards the top for another
random number.

Since we know that from one hex side to another it is 1 parsec, it is
easy to figure out what 1% up/down is.

Now; Each angle of a regular hexagon is 120 degrees. If I cut a hex up
into 12 right triangles I end up with 12 30/60/90 triangles, and I
know that the side opposite the 60 is .5 parsecs. I can then do a
sin(60) = .866 , and a little more math ((.5 / H = .866), (H = .667)
H*2 = 1.333) (OK, I rounded more here than I did on the calculator)),
so a little more math shows me that the width of a hex is 1.333
parsecs.

Am I crazy? (It's been a long time since I used geometry, even though
I regularly program graphs.) I started to do the cosine of 30 to
double check until I realized the cos(30) = sin(60). Exactly.

Feel free to reply off the list, so everyone doesn't start screaming
that I started the hexagonal geometry thread!


- -- 
Rob Brady 685B57            Computer Geek, 4 terms
Computer-4, Electronic-2, Streetwise-1
"Don't even ask about quirks!"     robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 99 00:19:11 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

On 06/22/99 at 03:17 PM,  "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> said:

>>Anyway, one of the SEALs doing the welcoming is apparently
>>a sharpshooter with lots of confirmed kills. He was
>>interviewed by some reporter and asked "What do you feel
>>when you shoot The Bad Guys?".

>>His answer: "Recoil."

>For the life of me, I can't figure out why this is an asinine
>question.

>The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people are *not*
>snipers with lots of confirmed kills... myself included. It's
>entirely possible that people who are not snipers with lots of
>confirmed kills might be interested in what a sniper feels when he
>shoots the bad guys, if he feels anything at all.

Chris, I think the SEAL *gave* the reporter her answer.  I don't
doubt at all that when he pulls the trigger he has compartmentalised
his mind so that he really doesn't feel anything except recoil.  How
he handles it *later* might be another story, but I doubt he would
*want* to talk to a reporter about that.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 22:45:10 -0700
From: "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")


>Chris, I think the SEAL *gave* the reporter her answer.  I don't
>doubt at all that when he pulls the trigger he has compartmentalised
>his mind so that he really doesn't feel anything except recoil.  How
>he handles it *later* might be another story, but I doubt he would
>*want* to talk to a reporter about that.
>
>Eris


    First it was a he speaking not a she, Eris, that is way to damn PC for
me.  And, there are some people who do not feel the death's of others.  When
I was in the USMC, & in DS/DS, I know when I shoot Iraqi troops, I really
did not feel a thing, then or now.  I do wake up with nightmares about the
shelling of the beach, or the heat & thirst, the sun shinning down right
into my eyes, but I never dream about the men I killed.  My father faught in
WWII, Korea, & 'Nam & before he died, we talked about it, man to man, Marine
to Marine.  He also did not feel a thing about it.  It is a job, nothing
more nothing less.  It would be different to me, at least, if I knew the
person, but to me, they are targets.  And, targets do not mean anything.
    Though, my father did say that he once felt something about killing a
bad guy, happiness & satisfaction.  Durring, an assualt on an island in the
S. Pasiifc, my father & his platoon came across a Field Hospital.MASH Unit &
the patiants were all dead, the men murdered in cold blood, & the women
raped to death, when the platoon caught up to the Japanese unit that did
this, they killed everyone of them.  Even the ones that surrendered.  It
seems some of the patiants were fellow marines, so the CO a 90 day wonder,
who was also a pre-law student held a courts martial for the ones who
surrendered & had them dig their own graves & then gave the order to fire,
each one of the POWs were killed.
    As my father says, "If you do not follow the rules of war, do not seek
their protection."

Legate Legion
ICQ # 8973001
legate@futureone.com
http://www.futureone.com/~legate/index.htm

"A man may fight for many things; his country, his principles, his friends,
the glistening tear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd
mudwrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock, and a stack of
French porn." - Edmund Blackadder

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 23:13:10 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Hexagons

Rob Brady wrote:

> bizarre questions:
>
> The Traveller reasoning; I am moving stars out of the center of their
> hexagons in order to make more believable star maps.

You mean as a compremise(oh i spell like crap) instead of full 3D.

> I figure I will
> move them 1% of a hex towards the right for each
> ((random number from 0 to 99) - 50) and 1% towards the top for another
> random number.

Now this sounds like you are wanting to "zoom in" and overlay a smaller
hexgrid onto the one parsec standard, then jink these systems around a
little in that framework?

>
> Since we know that from one hex side to another it is 1 parsec, it is
> easy to figure out what 1% up/down is.

Up down as in Rimward Coreward?

>
>
> Now; Each angle of a regular hexagon is 120 degrees. If I cut a hex up
> into 12 right triangles I end up with 12 30/60/90 triangles, and I
> know that the side opposite the 60 is .5 parsecs. I can then do a
> sin(60) = .866 , and a little more math ((.5 / H = .866), (H = .667)
> H*2 = 1.333) (OK, I rounded more here than I did on the calculator)),

> so a little more math shows me that the width of a hex is 1.333
> parsecs.

I've been puzzling over some simular problems while fiddling with hex
maps (scaling up and down).Is it something about hex's?

>
> Am I crazy? (It's been a long time since I used geometry, even though
> I regularly program graphs.) I started to do the cosine of 30 to
> double check until I realized the cos(30) = sin(60). Exactly.

Same here. I mean, am I crazy?

>
>
> Feel free to reply off the list, so everyone doesn't start screaming
> that I started the hexagonal geometry thread!

If you'll start it, I'll join! Can we get into the orientation of
hexagonal grids laid onto icosahedral globes? I say current conventions
are 90 degrees off!

Chirping Elf
BZA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 02:39:59 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: Hexagons

At 11:13 PM 6/22/99 -0700, Chirping Elf wrote:
>Rob Brady wrote:
>
>> bizarre questions:
>>
>> The Traveller reasoning; I am moving stars out of the center of their
>> hexagons in order to make more believable star maps.
>
>You mean as a compromise(oh i spell like crap) instead of full 3D.
>
Yeah. Next I might go full 3d, but one thing at a time. I am trying to 
come up with a map of space outside what we currently know of space
that is as realistic as a map of known space is (something like
http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/starmap.html shows).

>> I figure I will
>> move them 1% of a hex towards the right for each
>> ((random number from 0 to 99) - 50) and 1% towards the top for another
>> random number.
>
>Now this sounds like you are wanting to "zoom in" and overlay a smaller
>hex grid onto the one parsec standard, then jink these systems around a
>little in that framework?

I was thinking I would give them coordinates base on my homeworld. Amho is
.76 parsecs rimward, .34 parsecs spinward of Eideann.

>Up down as in Rimward Coreward?

Up as in towards the top of the map, but yes, on the OTU maps, up is
coreward, right is trailing.


- -- 
I could not say I believe. I know! I have had the experience of being gripped
by something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God.
							-- Carl Jung
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 99 01:40:21 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

On 06/22/99 at 10:45 PM,  "Legate Legion" <legate@futureone.com> said:

>>Chris, I think the SEAL *gave* the reporter her answer.  I don't
>>doubt at all that when he pulls the trigger he has compartmentalized
>>his mind so that he really doesn't feel anything except recoil.  How
>>he handles it *later* might be another story, but I doubt he would
>>*want* to talk to a reporter about that.

>    First it was a he speaking not a she, Eris, that is way to damn
>PC for me.  

I noticed that the wording wasn't clear when I read my post on the
TML.  I had gotten that the SEAL was a he and the reporter was a
she.  So, for clarity revise my sentence to read, "...the SEAL gave
the reporter his answer to her question."

As for the rest, I don't share your background and I don't I share
what I preceive to be your attitude on this subject.  I do agree,
however, that there are people that don't feel the death of others.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 03:18:25 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")


>Chris, I think the SEAL *gave* the reporter her answer.  I don't
>doubt at all that when he pulls the trigger he has compartmentalised
>his mind so that he really doesn't feel anything except recoil.

It wasn't the validity of the answer that I was calling into question, I'll
take the sniper's word for it. It was how the *question* was in and of
itself asinine.

>How
>he handles it *later* might be another story, but I doubt he would
>*want* to talk to a reporter about that.


Personally, I think it was a gauche question, which David might have meant
by asinine. When I read the message the meaning came across as: a question
that people with low I.Q. might ask since the answer is so plainly obvious
to everybody.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 04:11:27 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: First In: Problems with WorldGen

I was wondering if anyone could kindly help me with a couple of questions
about the system generation process in First In:

1.) How does a worldbuilder figure out a blackbody temp for a moon? In the
formula B=(278 * Fourth Root of L) / Square root of R (p. 75) is R the
radius of the parent world's orbit in the case of a moon?

2.) Are there any special considerations for the moons of gas giants in
general?

3.) Are there special considerations for Sulfur Icy Rockball GG moons? Do
the active volcanoes raise the average surface temperature at all?

4.) Should "Detailed World Typing" (Sidebar p. 65) be used for moons as well
as planets?

5.) What kind of life can exist on Hostile worlds? (Look down for specific
questions)

    a.) Hostile (SG): "A gas subgiant close enough to its primary star may
support life." (p. 68) What is "close enough" exactly? What type of life can
it support?

    b.) Hostile (N): "Terra itself was a nitrogen world early in its
history, before the advent of photosynthetic life." Does this mean it's
possible for a Hostile (N) world to support very primitive,
non-photosynthetic life?

    c.) Hostile (A): "If an ammonia world is warm enough, it may have oceans
of liquid water and ammonia in a so-called "eutectic" mixture. Such a world
may support life." What is warm enough, exactly? It would appear that the
only Hostile (A) worlds that can appear only appear in the Outer Zone, where
it doesn't seem that they could actually be warm enough.

6.) The formula D = 309,000 * Square root of L / T^2 on page 53 says that D
is the star's diameter in astronomical units. However, if I plug in values
from the table on page 50 I seem to get what's listed as the radius in the
table.

Example: the temp of a G5 V star is listed as 5,800, the Luminosity is
listed as 0.79 and the radius is listed as 0.0082.

If I plug the temp and luminosity into the formula I get: 0.0081642. It
seems to work the same way for other values I've picked at random from the
table.

Is this the diameter or the radius? Does the table on page 50 show the
diameter or the radius? Is the formula wrong, or the table, or both, or
neither?

Finally:

7.) What other factors can contribute to heating up or cooling down a planet
(or, presumably, a moon)? In the main body of text on page 75, there's the
statement "This temperature should only be considered approximate, since
there are many other significant factors." Then, in the sidebar on the same
page, there's the similar statement "Had the temperature falled outside the
range, the GM had many ways to adjust it."

What are some of the other factors that could be involved, and what kind of
effects might they have on the world's average temperature? What are the
"many ways" to adjust the temperature? I imagine terraforming could play a
role, but are there other ways as well?

Sorry about the number of questions, just a little confused at points.

Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
Looking for other Traveller players in your area?
Looking to run a PBEM game? Check out:
http://www.pil.net/~semo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #761
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 23 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 762



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re : Xenobiology 101
RE: Evolution of number of legs (was Questions for a problem)
Re: Hexagons
Re: traveller stuff
Re: traveller stuff
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: Fanzines
Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen
Re: Questions for a problem
re: Fanzines
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
RE: First In: Problems with WorldGen
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:32:26 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Xenobiology 101

Folks, would it be worthwhile starting a series on alien building?
I'd be happy to start in with biochemistry and physiology.
Thad Coons posted some stuff a little ways back about pre-biotic
chemistry ; Ian 'Peez' Ferguson can keep us honest if he has the time.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:07:28 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Evolution of number of legs (was Questions for a problem)

Well there go the dragons,however Wyverns which are foud limbed could work,
if the atmosphere is thick enough and gravity low enough to support their
mass.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:04:52 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Hexagons

At 01:17 23/06/1999 -0400, Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com> wrote:
>bizarre questions:
>
>The Traveller reasoning; I am moving stars out of the center of their
>hexagons in order to make more believable star maps. I figure I will
>move them 1% of a hex towards the right for each
>((random number from 0 to 99) - 50) and 1% towards the top for another
>random number.
>
>Since we know that from one hex side to another it is 1 parsec, it is
>easy to figure out what 1% up/down is.
>
>Now; Each angle of a regular hexagon is 120 degrees. If I cut a hex up
>into 12 right triangles I end up with 12 30/60/90 triangles, and I
>know that the side opposite the 60 is .5 parsecs. I can then do a
>sin(60) = .866 , and a little more math ((.5 / H = .866), (H = .667)
>H*2 = 1.333) (OK, I rounded more here than I did on the calculator)),
>so a little more math shows me that the width of a hex is 1.333
>parsecs.
>
>Am I crazy? (It's been a long time since I used geometry, even though
>I regularly program graphs.) I started to do the cosine of 30 to
>double check until I realized the cos(30) = sin(60). Exactly.

Okay, let's try another test.

Take 7 equally sized coins/washers/buttons. Put one on a table and
arrange the other six around it so each of them touches the middle one.

Now, you can immediately see that there are 6 directions in which
the centres of two adjoining coins are 1 diameter apart.

Any other coins must be further apart...the small bit of table you can
see is a clue to the difference.

If the coins touch vertically, then the horizontal gap between centres
is...

Some sums:

	v = vertical gap between centres
	h = horizontal gap between centres
	r = length of hex side

	v = 2 r cos30
	h = 1.5 r (draw it and see)

=>	h = (1.5 v) / (2 cos30)

	v = 1
=>	h = .866

Your problem of dividing up the hexes is that you cannot divide a hex
into equal squares. Or hexes.
You would have to divide it into 6 equilateral triangles, each of which
can be divided into 4 triangles, which divide into another 4 and so on.

Otherwise, your distribution will not be even or it will cause stars
to change hex.

Hopefully, this "explanation" should cause more problems than it solves.
;-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 05:34:09 PDT
From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: traveller stuff

>I did post to the list that in my Traveller universe, the Roswell
>incident in 1947 was the crash of a Vilani vessel.  That might be a fun
>scenario to play out, with the PCs as either the injured Vilani crew
>trying to get a message home or as USAF personnel or as outsiders trying
>to figure out what happened.
>
>--Glenn
Maybe Mulder isn't chasing the "grey" or the Alphans from G:Atomic Horror 
but Vilani in league with the Trilateral Commission :)
>
>
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 05:34:09 PDT
From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: traveller stuff

>I did post to the list that in my Traveller universe, the Roswell
>incident in 1947 was the crash of a Vilani vessel.  That might be a fun
>scenario to play out, with the PCs as either the injured Vilani crew
>trying to get a message home or as USAF personnel or as outsiders trying
>to figure out what happened.
>
>--Glenn
Maybe Mulder isn't chasing the "grey" or the Alphans from G:Atomic Horror 
but Vilani in league with the Trilateral Commission :)
>
>
>


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1999 18:06:50 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:

> He was interviewed by some reporter and asked "What do you feel
> when you shoot The Bad Guys?".
>
> His answer: "Recoil."

Brilliant!

It would make a great title for a book/supplement on
gun combat.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

NOTE: Please include all previous mail in responses.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 07:24:57 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

Hypercleats wrote:
> 
> >
> > I saw something recently on either Discovery channel or The Learning
> > Channel about the development of robots. Various robot designs have been
> > tried. It turns out that the four-legged ones offer the best combination
> > of stability and power usage.
> 
> What about tripods?
> 

They weren't covered for some reason. 

> > I'm no biologist, but it seems to me that any ground-dwelling species
> > will evolve the same way. Natural selection will eliminate all but the
> > most efficient designs, given enough time.
> >
> 
> Now this is a good framework to go from. But some alien life may exist in a
> more viscous medium than water or air. I think they might have some more
> leniency given to their form. Maybe?
> 

Agreed. Also, the different gravitational forces on other worlds will alter the
power required for locomotion. On low-G worlds, six-legged creatures could well
be larger, because they don't require as much energy to move.

> > Sure they can. It is possible for a mutant bird to be hatched with two
> > extra limbs. However, unless these limbs give that bird an advantage
> > over its peers, it won't survive long enough to breed.
> 
> Right. What I should have said(typed?) was it was a rather drastic mutation
> with a much lower chance of being "functional". Limbs are what I would
> classify as a major morphological structure. I am not a biologist but the
> only more broad form choice I can think of is linear spine or perhaps
> bilateral in general.
> 

Agreed. The possibility is, IMO, very, very, low. Now, if we had Mr. Burns
operating a nuclear power plant somewhere, that'd be different. After all, we
all remember the three-eyed fish!

> > Or how about a six-legged insect that, over generations, gets larger and
> > larger? As it does so, two of its legs shrink into prehensile stubs,
> > like what happened to our toes.
> >
> 
> Cool! Now the question is fore, mid, or hind? I imagine shortened forelimbs
> would be prone to adapt to food-gathering, while the hindmost would probably
> be best used to secure traction. The mid limbs, other than possibly being
> wings or struts for some kind of gliding membrane between fore and hind
> limbs, baffle me. Anyone? I am intrigued.

Well, let's not assume that the mouth is at the front of the beast. What if the
mouth is located centrally between its legs, like that of an octopus? Then the
mid-legs could be used for food-gathering, with the outer legs splayed wide for
traction during this maneuver.

Hmmm, pre-coffee imagination starting to run away with me. Picture the mouth as
a extensible burrowing tool. The creature resembles a four-legged camera stand
(but lower to the ground), with the mid-legs and mouth digging away at the
ground for prey (or adventuring PCs, of course).

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 07:43:57 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Fanzines

>Does anyone know of any Traveller fanzines that still exist or have they
>all been replaced by mailing lists and web sites.  I always liked fanzines
>despite their unevenness, (and the greater chance of getting something
>published).

It does seem that the Internet has taken over. But it's easy to get 
something published on the Web. All you need is a web-page editor (or
Windows Notepad and a reference on how to do HTML) and a place to put
your pages. Once you put some pages up, sign up for the Traveller Web
Ring (this is of course assuming they're Traveller pages).  :)



     Glenn St-Germain § Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com § http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:46:43 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen

In a message dated 6/23/99 3:16:22 AM US Eastern Standard Time, semo@pil.net 
writes:

Woof.  Well, let's see if I can take a stab at some of these.  If you want
detailed answers for some, you'll have to take a number and get in line :-).

>  was wondering if anyone could kindly help me with a couple of questions
>  about the system generation process in First In:
>  
>  1.) How does a worldbuilder figure out a blackbody temp for a moon? In the
>  formula B=(278 * Fourth Root of L) / Square root of R (p. 75) is R the
>  radius of the parent world's orbit in the case of a moon?

Correct.  Distance to the primary star is the relevant item.


>  2.) Are there any special considerations for the moons of gas giants in
>  general?

Specify.  What special considerations would you expect?

Almost all gas giant moons will be tide-locked to the gas giant.  They'll tend
to be small.


>  3.) Are there special considerations for Sulfur Icy Rockball GG moons? Do
>  the active volcanoes raise the average surface temperature at all?

Maybe, since the volcanoes are there because tidal effects heat the moon's
interior up.  I have no data as to how big an effect this would be, so I 
ignored
it.


>  4.) Should "Detailed World Typing" (Sidebar p. 65) be used for moons as 
well
>  as planets?

In general, yes.


>  5.) What kind of life can exist on Hostile worlds? (Look down for specific
>  questions)
>  
>      a.) Hostile (SG): "A gas subgiant close enough to its primary star may
>  support life." (p. 68) What is "close enough" exactly? What type of life 
can
>  it support?

Close enough to have liquid water or ammonia-water oceans.  Presumably
with that you could get even pretty complicated life-forms, although the
biochemistry would obviously be very different from our own.


>      b.) Hostile (N): "Terra itself was a nitrogen world early in its
>  history, before the advent of photosynthetic life." Does this mean it's
>  possible for a Hostile (N) world to support very primitive,
>  non-photosynthetic life?

Yes.


>      c.) Hostile (A): "If an ammonia world is warm enough, it may have 
oceans
>  of liquid water and ammonia in a so-called "eutectic" mixture. Such a world
>  may support life." What is warm enough, exactly? It would appear that the
>  only Hostile (A) worlds that can appear only appear in the Outer Zone, 
where
>  it doesn't seem that they could actually be warm enough.

The point is, the ammonia-water mixture has a lower freezing point than
water does by itself.  Presumably, then, the liquid eutectic mixture would be
possible for some distance out into the outer zone.  With the liquid for a 
sub-
strate, life is possble.  I would have to do some further research to 
establish
exactly how far out the mixture can remain liquid.  It's a complicated 
question
and I didn't feel like addressing it in detail in the book (since that would 
have
probably required yet another orbital zone and more rules).


>  6.) The formula D = 309,000 * Square root of L / T^2 on page 53 says that D
>  is the star's diameter in astronomical units. However, if I plug in values
>  from the table on page 50 I seem to get what's listed as the radius in the
>  table.

This is a known erratum.  The tables should refer to "diameter."  
Unfortunately
the rules for computing the 100-diameter radius from a star are based on the
assumption that the value from the table is a radius; that needs to be fixed 
too.
When I have time I plan to track down all the places where this mistake
cropped up and submit a list to SJG.


>  Finally:
>  
>  7.) What other factors can contribute to heating up or cooling down a 
planet
>  (or, presumably, a moon)? In the main body of text on page 75, there's the
>  statement "This temperature should only be considered approximate, since
>  there are many other significant factors." Then, in the sidebar on the same
>  page, there's the similar statement "Had the temperature falled outside the
>  range, the GM had many ways to adjust it."
>  
>  What are some of the other factors that could be involved, and what kind of
>  effects might they have on the world's average temperature? What are the
>  "many ways" to adjust the temperature? I imagine terraforming could play a
>  role, but are there other ways as well?

What I had in mind was that the GM could adjust the exact planetary
orbital radius or the planet's albedo (or both) in order to get a desired 
surface
temperature.  You could probably fudge the greenhouse effect a little, too,
if you felt like it.  It would be a big job to describe exactly how all these
adjustments could reflect local conditions, but that's just handwaving anyway.
The point is that there's plenty of leeway in the random-generation systems
in the book.


>  Sorry about the number of questions, just a little confused at points.

Hope this was of some help.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 07:49:28 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Questions for a problem

>>1) If a moon that circles a Gas Giant is tidally locked with that GG, how do
>>you figure it's day/night cycle with reference to the system's primary?

<snip>

>Now take point "B", on the equator facing the planet.  The same basic rule
>applies, but B will deal with an eclipse once an orbit.  The duration of
>this eclipse depends on the size of the GG and the diameter of the orbit.

One more factor to consider: the inclination of the planet's orbit around
its primary. The moon's orbit is tilted with respect to the Earth's, so 
that when it passes behind the Earth (from the Sun's viewpoint), it usually
passes above or below the resulting Earth shadow.

Admittedly, if it's a large GG and a close orbit, it would need to be a very
large inclination for this to happen in this hypothetical system. 

(Good explanation, btw.)


     Glenn St-Germain § Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com § http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:00:44 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Fanzines

Glen St.Germaine wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
It does seem that the Internet has taken over. But it's easy to get 
something published on the Web. All you need is a web-page editor (or
Windows Notepad and a reference on how to do HTML) and a place to put
your pages. Once you put some pages up, sign up for the Traveller Web
Ring (this is of course assuming they're Traveller pages).  :)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Not to mention the sites (like the aforementioned Freelance Traveller)
that are hungry for content. Write something interesting, you may not
need a place to put it or even any HTML coding - provide your article
as straight text or graphics and, if it's good enough, a Traveller web
master will be happy to take it off your hands and put it up for you.

Walt Smith
Ringmaster, Traveller Deckplans Webring
http://hartwick.edu/~smithw/deckring.htm

Walt Smith
System Manager
Hartwick College
Oneonta, NY
smithw@hartwick.edu

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:09:30 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

Chris Seamans posted:
>
>Personally, I think it was a gauche question, which David might have meant
>by asinine. When I read the message the meaning came across as: a question
>that people with low I.Q. might ask since the answer is so plainly obvious
>to everybody.

Agreed. The use of the word "asinine" was a poor choice
and reflects my personal opinion of most news reporting
today, the reasons for which I won't go into.

"Gauche" would have been a much more accurate choice,
exactly for the reason you've stated.

I personally appreciated the SEAL's response.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:31:54 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen

- -----Original Message-----
From: JFZeigler@aol.com <JFZeigler@aol.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen


>Woof.  Well, let's see if I can take a stab at some of these.  If you want
>detailed answers for some, you'll have to take a number and get in line
:-).


Fair enough. Hopefully you won't mind if I snip out all the stuff that you
have answered and just give a blanket "Thank you."

>>  2.) Are there any special considerations for the moons of gas giants in
>>  general?
>
>Specify.  What special considerations would you expect?


Well, I assumed that the tidal forces from the gas giant could heat up the
moon's interior, if the moon was close enough. That's one, but you've
already said that you weren't sure about that. Other than that, I figured
that there might be something that was obvious, but I just didn't know
about. I seem to remember hearing that gas giants emit some radiation, for
example. I was wondering if this might be enough to heat up a moon.

That's just it, though. I don't know what special considerations to expect,
since I don't know all that much about gas giants and their moons ;)

>Almost all gas giant moons will be tide-locked to the gas giant.  They'll
tend
>to be small.


Yes. I've noticed that ;)

>Maybe, since the volcanoes are there because tidal effects heat the moon's
>interior up.  I have no data as to how big an effect this would be, so I
>ignored
>it.


Fair enough.

>This is a known erratum.  The tables should refer to "diameter."
>Unfortunately
>the rules for computing the 100-diameter radius from a star are based on
the
>assumption that the value from the table is a radius; that needs to be
fixed
>too.
>When I have time I plan to track down all the places where this mistake
>cropped up and submit a list to SJG.


Ouch! That's a biggie! I assume that the various assorted formulae that use
radius are correct and I should use the radius and not the diameter?

>It would be a big job to describe exactly how all these
>adjustments could reflect local conditions, but that's just handwaving
anyway.
>The point is that there's plenty of leeway in the random-generation systems
>in the book.


Fair enough. That works for me.

>>  Sorry about the number of questions, just a little confused at points.
>
>Hope this was of some help.


Yes, it was extremely helpful. Thanks again.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:15:06 -0400
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

  From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>

  Hypercleats wrote:
  > 
  > Ian Ferguson wrote:
  > 
  > > William Barnett-Lewis writes:
  > > <snipped>
  > > "3) Is there any possible reason for evolution to (seemingly ;)
  > > favor a quadrapedal form over a hexapedal form?"

  I saw something recently on either Discovery channel or The Learning
  Channel about the development of robots. Various robot designs have been
  tried. It turns out that the four-legged ones offer the best combination
  of stability and power usage.

It was Scientific American Frontiers.  I was a grad student in the MIT
Leg Lab when Arcwelder Films came through to film for that show.  Some
of what they used was in fact our archival footage.

  The six-legged robots were stable, but required too much power for
  motion. The power required increased exponentially the larger the robots
  got, which might explain why the only species on Earth that have six
  legs are very small. 

If you are going to move with substantial speed, you are not going to
be statically stable.  I can't think of _any_ creature which regularly
moves in a statically stable manner.  So this data point regarding the
six-legged robots is not applicable.

  The two-legged ones were the most unstable (read: required the most
  computing power for balancing acts) but offered the lowest power
  requirement for locomotion.

I disagree on a couple points here.

If you go to a dynamically stable robot, the extra power requirements
for size are not really connected to the number of legs.  Just make
the legs lightweight compared to the body, and how many of them you
have is not very relevant.

  I couldn't stop laughing at the hopping one-legged robots, so I won't
  comment further on them.

I will.  Running is basically hopping on your legs as though they were
springs.  The power requirements are actually those of putting the
legs in the right place and replacing energy lost in the leg springs.


The one legged hopping robot, however funny, was immensely instructive
in making the two legged one.  There were two limits on the running
speed of the one-legged robot.  The first was the fact that when you
swing the leg forward, the body tilts down.  While the leg's on the
ground, you have to correct for it.  The more important one is that
while the robot is in the air you have to reposition the leg for
landing.  You can give yourself more time by hopping higher (or
lowering gravity), but the greater your air time the greater the
effect of any inaccuracies in your hop.  Eventually, you don't want to
hop higher, so you are left with moving the leg more quickly.  Quick
movements mean higher power requirements.

The two legged robot was a natural extension of the one legged robot.
It addresses both of the speed limitations.  Two legs means that when
one leg swings, the other leg can swing the other direction to
decrease the body tilt.  More importantly, you have twice as long to
position a leg for landing.  The two-legged hopping robot we built has
the land speed record for a legged robot (about 11mph on flat ground -
compare this to an ostrich, which has been clocked at 50mph).

The four legged robot, using its legs in pairs, was generally more
stable and conceivably just as fast as the biped.  After all, we used
pairs of legs to make a single "virtual" leg, then used the biped
running algorithm.  Its _big_ problem was that there were more parts
to maintain.

A hypothetical six-legged running robot would have the following
qualities:
1. More parts to break.
2. More redundancy.
3. Higher maximum speed, if you are willing to be less stable (running
with three pairs of legs).
4. Higher stability, at the cost of maximum speed (running with an
alternating tripod gait).


Regarding the comment about the processing power required to run:

It turns out that the processing power required to run is actually
quite small, if the creature is constructed properly.  In fact, in the
right conditions you need neither a brain nor sensors to run in a
stable manner.  This means that if you build the robot (or creature)
properly, the brain only needs to deal with unusual conditions.


Someone else asks if tripods can run:

Certainly.  I've made physically realistic simulations of them, they
work just fine.  Think about how a dog runs if it loses a leg, too.


My hypothesis on what evolution will favor:

For our purposes... whatever you want.  There are enough arguments
any way.  Although you are unlikely to get one-legged hoppers, because
if something happens to their leg there is no backup.


	- Robert Ringrose
	  ringrose@ascent.com
	  MIT Leg Lab gratuate

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 23:16:33 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: First In: Problems with WorldGen

In the Sol system Io is heated both by tidal action and by having its entire
orbit within Jupiters radiation belt. Resulting in its surface being rapidly
recycled.

Anyone have a guide as to how to set radiation zones for gas giants so that
it can be established which moons are beneath them, which in the zone, and
which are outside the zone?

For example Book 6 Scout states that Regina is a moon of a large gas giant
and orbits 55 radii out from the large gas giant. This would probably be
outside any radiation zone. However there is apparently a farming colony on
the moon Redes which orbits 3 radii from the same gas giant. Apart from the
possibility that this orbit may be rather irradiated the sesmic stress
factor of the moon must be enourmous.

Any comments?
Antony Farrell

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:56:37 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

ringrose@ascent.com wrote:
> 
>   From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
> 
>   The six-legged robots were stable, but required too much power for
>   motion. The power required increased exponentially the larger the robots
>   got, which might explain why the only species on Earth that have six
>   legs are very small.
> 
> If you are going to move with substantial speed, you are not going to
> be statically stable.  I can't think of _any_ creature which regularly
> moves in a statically stable manner.  So this data point regarding the
> six-legged robots is not applicable.
> 

I don't understand. Picture, say, a cheetah, the fastest land animal on Earth.
Why isn't that statically stable?

Or perhaps I should ask you to define "statically stable". To me, that means
that it will not topple over when at rest. Is that the wrong definition?

> If you go to a dynamically stable robot, the extra power requirements
> for size are not really connected to the number of legs.  Just make
> the legs lightweight compared to the body, and how many of them you
> have is not very relevant.

My point about the extra power required for extra legs was from the show. Either
I misunderstood the narrator, or he was just plain wrong. 

> The four legged robot, using its legs in pairs, was generally more
> stable and conceivably just as fast as the biped.  After all, we used
> pairs of legs to make a single "virtual" leg, then used the biped
> running algorithm.  Its _big_ problem was that there were more parts
> to maintain.

Treating a pair of legs as a single, virtual, leg means you end up with a robot
that walks like an elephant: both legs on a side move in tandem. Now, there are
many creatures whose legs do not work this way. Now that I think of it, my cat
doesn't walk like that; each leg operates independently.

I don't know if there are advantages to having independent legs or not, but I
can see that the walking motion becomes much more complex when all legs move
independently. There must be an evolutionary advantage to having independent
legs. Anyone care to put forth an opinion?

> A hypothetical six-legged running robot would have the following
> qualities:
> 1. More parts to break.

Right. However, the original discussion was on creatures, not robots. I just
mentioned the show because I thought it was applicable. In a six-legged
creature, this point isn't a factor because

a) the body parts of living organisms tend to be more more durable than those of
machines
b) in cases where a) isn't true, natural selection will weed out those species

> 2. More redundancy.

Agreed.

> 3. Higher maximum speed, if you are willing to be less stable (running
> with three pairs of legs).

I think that this point suffers from the law of diminishing returns. There is a
huge increase in maximum speed when you go from one leg to two, a lesser one
when you jump to four legs, and it's probably minimal after that. 

This assumes that the legs do not move in tandem. If they move in tandem, then
you're not gaining much by adding legs.

> 4. Higher stability, at the cost of maximum speed (running with an
> alternating tripod gait).
> 

Agreed.

Just so we're clear: I'm no expert on this stuff, and am just venturing my
layman's opinion. I really enjoyed your thoughts on this topic.
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #762
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 23 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 763



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: fanzines
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Locomotion: Bio. and Tech. (Xenobiology 101)
Re: SOMETHING VERY ODD/ACQ
Re: Locomotion: Bio. and Tech. (Xenobiology 101)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:06:32 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Hypercleats writes:
"I am glad to see this thread morph into such informative 
discussion. Missiles bore me, aliens are cool. (Beavis giggle)"

	Aliens are cool, but I like missiles too  :-)

"Thus it is nice to have another "grabber", but this deeloped 
later and is not a limb. Imagine a prehensile tail on, oh, say 
 bird type critter that is marsupial. Now that sounds alien 
with terran proven forms."

	I like the tail-bird! Some Terran birds use their beak 
	as a third "hand," and other forms may spring to mind:
	prehensile nose? ears? wattle?

<snipped>
"> Even though
>         slight modifications to the fore-legs improved gliding
>         (and ultimately flying) ability, it is hard to imagine how
>         slight modifications to the wings will improve quadrapedal
>         locomotion. Thus birds are stuck with two legs.

They can't grow new limbs this late in their development.

	If you mean "this late in their evolution," then that is
	exactly my point. Evolution is constrained by what has
	already evolved.

Is there any reason endoskeletons exclude exoskelotons? The 
terrapins come to mind, as do armadillos.

	Good examples. Now picture a world where endoskeletons 
	(just by chance) never evolved, or where harsh conditions
	favoured a hard, protective covering.

">There are those who
>         have argued that animals much bigger than condors could not
>         fly, that animals as big as Brontosaurus could not stand
>         without water to support their weight, that insects are
>         restricted to their current maximum size because of their
>         lack of lungs and an efficient circulation sustem. All of
>         these arguments are demonstrably false."

Now wait a sec, isn't the last bit about insects true? I know the 
others have been disproven, and that bugs used to be bigger, but not
elephant sized."

	Given the systems that insects have, I find it unlikely that
	they could evolve to be 5 tons (Though I wouldn't rule it out
	completely if, for example, they could get by with extremely
	low metabolic rates. Think about giant clams.). My point was 
	that dragonflies the size of birds have existed, and we have 
	no way of knowing if even that was the ultimate size for an
	active insect.

"Now that is a wonderful idea. But we always seem to go to even 
numbers on limbs. What about asymetrical designs like some starfish?"

	Good point. Bilateral symmetry does seem to have advantages,
	but we shouldn't ignore Hivers when populating our
	Traveller worlds.

"And has anyone heard of trichordates, presumably some ancient 
extinct life form whom I assume to have three spines."

	Can't help you here, these are new to me.


Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:06:34 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Erwin Fritz writes:
<snipped>
"I'm no biologist, but it seems to me that any ground-dwelling 
species will evolve the same way. Natural selection will 
eliminate all but the most efficient designs, given enough time."

	I am a biologist (specialty: evolution) and you are quite
	correct. However, as you point out, natural selection 
	elliminates inefficient designs. It can only work with 	variation that is
available...it is an opportunistic and
	not a perfecting process. Thus, natural selection will
	tend to preserve the most efficient forms available, but
	there may be more efficient forms that are not available.
	I find it easily to believe that the quadrapedal form is
	a highly efficient form that would eveolve again if given
	the chance, but I can also believe that other body plans
	might establish themselves early in the evolution of life
	on some planets.

"This gets back to the recently popular theory that birds evolved 
from dinosaurs (and that theory was popular even before a certain 
movie came along)."

	Birds are dinosaurs. According to the latest phylogenetic 
	work, birds are more closely related to lizards than lizards 
	are to turtles. Birds are just the dinosaurs that have 
	a particular modification of the scales that have proven very
	useful (feathers).

"> They can't grow new limbs this late in their development.
> 

Sure they can. It is possible for a mutant bird to be hatched 
two extra limbs. However, unless these limbs give that bird an 
advantage over its peers, it won't survive long enough to breed."

	You've got the right idea, just add "probably" to the last 
	line.

"Or how about a six-legged insect that, over generations, gets 
larger and larger? As it does so, two of its legs shrink into 
prehensile stubs, like what happened to our toes."

	Actually, the antennae and some mouthparts of insects are
	modified legs.


Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:16:19 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

Erwin Fritz wrote:
> 
> Hypercleats wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I saw something recently on either Discovery channel or The Learning
> > > Channel about the development of robots. Various robot designs have been
> > > tried. It turns out that the four-legged ones offer the best combination
> > > of stability and power usage.
> >
> > What about tripods?
> >
> 
> They weren't covered for some reason.

Because tripods, while stable when motionless, present a 'worst case'
two-legged situation when walking. Two leggers are hard because of
balance, but they do balance because the can relatively easily keep the
center of gravity (cog) between the feet. With a tripod, you pick up one
foot, and you have two legs, with the cog removed from their geometric
center. Fall over. You are then acting more like a one-legged model.

They can work as a 'man-on-crutches' model, but since two of the legs
are working in unison, that actually simplifies into a two legged model.
This also requires more flexibility in the design than current robots,
whihc was what the design study was about. A tripod being in 'man on
crutches' mode could change direction astonishingly fast in 60 degree
angles, though.

Four and greater leg designs work because they can either simplify to a
two legged model with the correct cog (alternate legs off the ground) or
a tripod (one leg at a time off the ground)



- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:34:01 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

>
> [Tripods] can work as a 'man-on-crutches' model, but since two of the legs
> are working in unison, that actually simplifies into a two legged model.
> This also requires more flexibility in the design than current robots,
> whihc was what the design study was about. A tripod being in 'man on
> crutches' mode could change direction astonishingly fast in 60 degree
> angles, though.

Interesting, perhaps a useful trait for evasion. Also, could a tripodal critter
compensate for "Fall Down Syndrome" by using a counterweight? I am visualizing a
giraffe like "neck" on which might be it's sensory organs. Like an upside-down
pendulum.

I am loving these Xeno-bio posts, thanks to all of you wonderful folks with such
great ideas.

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:39:17 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re : Xenobiology 101

Robert O'Connor writes:
"Folks, would it be worthwhile starting a series on alien 
building? I'd be happy to start in with biochemistry and 
physiology. Thad Coons posted some stuff a little ways back 
about pre-biotic chemistry ; Ian 'Peez' Ferguson can keep 
us honest if he has the time."

	I'm keen!

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:39:42 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Robert Ringrose writes:
<snipped>
"If you go to a dynamically stable robot, the extra power 
requirements for size are not really connected to the number 
of legs.  Just make the legs lightweight compared to the 
body, and how many of them you have is not very relevant."

	The same logic will not always apply to an organism.
	If nothing else, many animals use their limbs for 
	things other than running, which constrains their
	size and weight.

<snipped>
"Someone else asks if tripods can run:

Certainly.  I've made physically realistic simulations of 
them, they work just fine.  Think about how a dog runs if 
it loses a leg, too."

	For that matter, a biped could run like a quadraped:
	one leg in front of the other.

"My hypothesis on what evolution will favor:

For our purposes... whatever you want.  There are enough 
arguments any way.  Although you are unlikely to get one-legged 
hoppers, because if something happens to their leg there is no 
backup."

	Right on the money. I would suggest that, when you are
	designing new critters, have a vague idea of how they 
	might have evolved in the back of your mind. Keep in mind
	that the general body plan of related critters is likely 
	to be similar, and try to give basic principals of physics
	at least some consideration. From there, have some fun! By 
	the way, I have one-legged aliens IMTU (after all, we have 
	only one of a lot of important organs in our bodies).


Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:37:32 EDT
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Re: fanzines

	There are four I can think of,

AAB by Clay Bush (HIWG zine, ClayRBush@aol.com, about 6 issues a year, 
possibly available now in PDF format).

Dark Star by Phil Masters (Australia,sporadic, available through Hyperbooks 
in PDF format).

Starburst (HIWG Australia, somewhat sporadic).

Meshan SAGA (HIWG NZ, was strictly traveller, but is currently open to other 
games I believe, about 4? issues a year).

Signal GK (I'm not sure on current status as it was undergoing changes 
several months ago, including possible HTML publication).

	The web and mailing lists has appeared to interfere a lot with the 
development and publication of fanzines.

Bryan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 10:41:54 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> They can work as a 'man-on-crutches' model, but since two of the legs
> are working in unison, that actually simplifies into a two legged model.
> This also requires more flexibility in the design than current robots,
> whihc was what the design study was about. A tripod being in 'man on
> crutches' mode could change direction astonishingly fast in 60 degree
> angles, though.
> 

And let's not forget the infamous Pierson's Puppeteer kick! I've always wanted
to sneak that into a campaign ...


- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:45:06 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

>
> Well, let's not assume that the mouth is at the front of the beast. What if the
> mouth is located centrally between its legs, like that of an octopus? Then the
> mid-legs could be used for food-gathering, with the outer legs splayed wide for
> traction during this maneuver.

Now that is an alien. I love it.

>
>
> Hmmm, pre-coffee imagination starting to run away with me.

Without coffee? You think without coffee? You have imagination without coffee? I
am amazed, I thought coffee was a crucial nutritional requirement. ;)

> Picture the mouth as
> a extensible burrowing tool. The creature resembles a four-legged camera stand
> (but lower to the ground), with the mid-legs and mouth digging away at the
> ground for prey (or adventuring PCs, of course).

Wicked little arbiter, are you? And here I was thinking herbivore grazer while you
are implementing the same bio-engineering to get players eaten! Hmmm, octopi have
nasty beaks too...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 09:53:22 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

Robert O'Connor wrote:

> Folks, would it be worthwhile starting a series on alien building?

Ooo, yeah yeah yeah!

>
> I'd be happy to start in with biochemistry and physiology.

Just steer it clear of Star Trek's funny foreheads and odd-coloured
bodily fluids and I'll be happy!

>
> Thad Coons posted some stuff a little ways back about pre-biotic
> chemistry ;

Pre-biotic? As in how to get complex molecules to replicate themselves in
the first place? That has always seemed like magic to me!

> Ian 'Peez' Ferguson can keep us honest if he has the time.

Hey, I am honest all the time by nature!

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:58:27 +0100
From: BRIAN CABAAL <boc@raidtec.ie>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

</lurk>
While for creatures that run (ie, having at some point of their movement no
legs on the ground) I can't see the advantage in having more than 4 legs,
for creatures that cannot run the limitation on speed is how fast they can
put one foot in front of the other. 

Creatures that cannot run are those who are too large, live on planets where
the gravity is too strong, or whose armour is too heavy for the creature to
safely lift it's entire body off the ground. Terrestrial examples include
Tortoises. For such creatures, the more legs the merrier. Take for example
the centipede or millipede... they walk with their legs moving in a wave
like motion, while some legs are pushing against the ground, others are in
various stages of lifting up, moving forward, and setting down. 

Remember not to look at terrestrial examples of life too closely... after
all, that monster in the deep ocean trench is your very distant cousin,
sharing a good portion of your DNA. An Alien would be just that... very
Alien. 

- -Brian Caball
<lurk>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 11:10:34 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

Hypercleats wrote:
> 
> >
> > Well, let's not assume that the mouth is at the front of the beast. What if the
> > mouth is located centrally between its legs, like that of an octopus? Then the
> > mid-legs could be used for food-gathering, with the outer legs splayed wide for
> > traction during this maneuver.
> 
> Now that is an alien. I love it.
> 

Or you could have the mouth on top, and the mid-legs grab stuff from the sky,
like a frog's tongue.

> > Hmmm, pre-coffee imagination starting to run away with me.
> 
> Without coffee? You think without coffee? You have imagination without coffee? I
> am amazed, I thought coffee was a crucial nutritional requirement. ;)
> 

My Traveller imagination, actually, is usually fueled by excess quantities of
Coke (the beverage, not the ... never mind). But that's another story.

> > Picture the mouth as
> > a extensible burrowing tool. The creature resembles a four-legged camera stand
> > (but lower to the ground), with the mid-legs and mouth digging away at the
> > ground for prey (or adventuring PCs, of course).
> 
> Wicked little arbiter, are you? And here I was thinking herbivore grazer while you
> are implementing the same bio-engineering to get players eaten! Hmmm, octopi have
> nasty beaks too...

Don't they, though? I've told my players that there are no herbivores IMTU. All
creatures are carnivores that have developed a taste for human/Vargr flesh, even
if their digestive tracts can't handle it. Imagine the looks on their faces.

One day I'll tell 'em I'm kidding.

Getting back to my second idea: Here are our brave adventurers, zipping along in
their air/raft at tree-top level. Unbeknownst to them, they fly right over ...

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:14:21 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: OT: Yikes! Run for the hills! Look who's back!

At 10:28 PM 6/22/99 -0500, you wrote:
<<SNIP>>
>Eris, who says
> "Unexpected run-away smash hit!"
> "Boffo!"
> "I laughed, I cried!"
> "Outrageous Action!" 
> "Give it four shields!"

And the Oscar for Best Picture...Dungeons and Dragons!  



Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:54:03 -0400
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

  From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>

  Just so we're clear: I'm no expert on this stuff, and am just venturing my
  layman's opinion. I really enjoyed your thoughts on this topic.

Thanks.
My responses will frequently talk about robots, rather than creatures,
but I believe they're still applicable.

  ringrose@ascent.com wrote:
  > 
  >   From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
  > 
  >   The six-legged robots were stable, but required too much power for
  >   motion. The power required increased exponentially the larger the robots
  >   got, which might explain why the only species on Earth that have six
  >   legs are very small.
  > 
  > If you are going to move with substantial speed, you are not going to
  > be statically stable.  I can't think of _any_ creature which regularly
  > moves in a statically stable manner.  So this data point regarding the
  > six-legged robots is not applicable.
  > 

  I don't understand. Picture, say, a cheetah, the fastest land animal on Earth.
  Why isn't that statically stable?

Because when it is running, it spends time airborne.  It may be
statically stable when standing still, but the important parts of a
cheeta's locomotion are when it is running.

  Or perhaps I should ask you to define "statically stable". To me, that means
  that it will not topple over when at rest. Is that the wrong definition?

Aaah.
"Statically stable": if it completely stops moving, it won't fall
over.  Examples: Cheeta standing still.  Four-legged robot which
always has three legs on the ground, and the center of mass over the
triangle formed by the grounded legs.  This isn't quite right,
actually, but the differences are irrelevant to the conversation.

"Dynamically stable": if it completely stops moving, it _will_ fall
over, but over time it takes actions which keep it from falling over.
Examples: Cheeta running.  Four-legged robot trotting (diagonal
pairs).


  My point about the extra power required for extra legs was from the show. Either
  I misunderstood the narrator, or he was just plain wrong. 

Maybe I'll go look at the videotape again.  But I suspect that either
you are misinterpreting the comment or it is out of context.

Think of it this way:
I have a four-legged robot.  It walks.
I add two legs, which wiggle back and forth but do nothing else.  The
added power requirement is the amount necessary to move the legs.
If you start putting weight on the new legs, you're taking it off the
old ones.

If you build the new legs right, the power required to move them is
extremely small.  If the robot moves consistently at a given pace, I
can add springs which will bounce the new legs back and forth at the
correct rate.  If the pace varies, I can add a more complicated system
which (essentially) allows the spring constants to be adjusted.

Nature cheats in this way, too.  If you take a human cadaver and swing its
leg, it swings at (approximately) a normal walking pace.

  > The four legged robot, using its legs in pairs, was generally more
  > stable and conceivably just as fast as the biped.  After all, we used
  > pairs of legs to make a single "virtual" leg, then used the biped
  > running algorithm.  Its _big_ problem was that there were more parts
  > to maintain.

  Treating a pair of legs as a single, virtual, leg means you end up with a robot
  that walks like an elephant: both legs on a side move in tandem. Now, there are
  many creatures whose legs do not work this way. Now that I think of it, my cat
  doesn't walk like that; each leg operates independently.

Your cat trots (diagonal pairs) instead of pacing (left side, right
side) or bounding (front, back).  But that's still pairs.  Horses
gallop (rotary or transverse gallop); that's much like a bound, except
the legs don't quite come down together.  And under certain
circumstances the legs do act separately.

Yes, in nature the control systems are quite a bit more complicated.
Your cat knows how to climb through a window, and (if your cat is at
all like mine) open doors.  In fact, your cat probably knows how to
make more cats.  Comparing it to a research robot isn't quite fair. :>

But watch next time your cat comes running -- it'll either be
galloping, or trotting.  There's a definite pattern to the footfalls,
one which depends on speed and terrain.

And pay attention the next time _you_ run.  You're using the tendons
in your legs like springs.

  I don't know if there are advantages to having independent legs or not, but I
  can see that the walking motion becomes much more complex when all legs move
  independently. There must be an evolutionary advantage to having independent
  legs. Anyone care to put forth an opinion?

*grin*
Yes, there are advantages.  You can deal with non-level surfaces, you
can deal with unexpected forces, and so on.

  > A hypothetical six-legged running robot would have the following
  > qualities:
  > 1. More parts to break.

  Right. However, the original discussion was on creatures, not robots. I just
  mentioned the show because I thought it was applicable. In a six-legged
  creature, this point isn't a factor because

  a) the body parts of living organisms tend to be more more durable than those of
  machines
  b) in cases where a) isn't true, natural selection will weed out those species

Yes, but they still have to be metabolically maintained.

  > 3. Higher maximum speed, if you are willing to be less stable (running
  > with three pairs of legs).

  I think that this point suffers from the law of diminishing returns. There is a
  huge increase in maximum speed when you go from one leg to two, a lesser one
  when you jump to four legs, and it's probably minimal after that.

Depends on how much air time you're willing to tolerate, you are right.

  This assumes that the legs do not move in tandem. If they move in tandem, then
  you're not gaining much by adding legs.

Moving in tandem is point 4 - you gain stability - to which you agree.


The question I have:
Is the difference between 4 and 6 legs enough to actively select
_against_ six legs?  I'm not sure.  For my trav universe, I'm just
saying that Earth favors large 4-legged creatures by chance.

	- Robert Ringrose
	  ringrose@ascent.com

Tidbit:
Did you know that American cockroaches, when going really fast, end up
on four and then even two legs?  (mostly because their forelegs, and
then middle legs, are just too short to keep up)

Obtrav:
If you don't have grav vehicles, you want a walking tank for
situations like deserts and swamps.  You can put large pads on the
feet to put the weight on a larger surface area, and you can
completely enclose the leg in a flexible material, keeping the
sand/mud out of the mechanism.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:46:42 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Locomotion: Bio. and Tech. (Xenobiology 101)

Great Thread!!

ringrose@ascent.com wrote:

> Aaah.
> "Statically stable": if it completely stops moving, it won't fall
> over.  Examples: Cheeta standing still.  Four-legged robot which
> always has three legs on the ground, and the center of mass over the
> triangle formed by the grounded legs.  This isn't quite right,
> actually, but the differences are irrelevant to the conversation.
>
> "Dynamically stable": if it completely stops moving, it _will_ fall
> over, but over time it takes actions which keep it from falling over.
> Examples: Cheeta running.  Four-legged robot trotting (diagonal
> pairs).

Won't dynamic stability depend on an good inner ear (the correct
name totally escapes me at the moment)?  I'm guessing without a
really good idea of the gravity vector (which way down is) and
where it is in relation to the COG, that the Cheetah would be
dynamically "unstable" and fall over if it leaned too far in a turn.

Might not Xenos from different environments have different
mechanisms for maintaining dynamic stability?  Instead
of the fluid-in-a-tube model of humans, perhaps something
that 'tunes' them into their planet's magnetic field?  I don't
really know enough to speculate well on this subject.
What do aquatic animals use?

Presumably, robots would use gyro's to deal with this.

Personally, I hate bipedal robots in futuristic settings,
especially when they get to be building sized.  Androids,
I can live with.  But is that just a bipedally biased/humano-centric
view of robots?  I think the legs of a bipedal robot/android
must be, at a minimum, as flexible and useful as human legs to
be desirable.  If it can manage that, then grav. technology
would be more desirable.  So, IMO, robot legs need to be
better than human or not at all.

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:00:03 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: SOMETHING VERY ODD/ACQ

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> At 05:33 PM 6/21/99 PDT, you wrote:
> >
> >Doo Bee Doo Bee DOOO.......
>
> Doo Bee ACQ.....

Doo bee or not doo bee?
Mister Dee Eee Bee?
When doo we see
dee eh cee que, jee?

:-)

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 15:32:41 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Locomotion: Bio. and Tech. (Xenobiology 101)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 2:48 PM
Subject: Locomotion: Bio. and Tech. (Xenobiology 101)


>Personally, I hate bipedal robots in futuristic settings,
>especially when they get to be building sized.

To a large extent I agree, but I expect it's for a slightly different
reason. I just don't like the Japanese mecha concept. Whenever you get
humanoid robots the size of buildings, you start to drift into that
territory.

>Androids,
>I can live with.  But is that just a bipedally biased/humano-centric
>view of robots?  I think the legs of a bipedal robot/android
>must be, at a minimum, as flexible and useful as human legs to
>be desirable.  If it can manage that, then grav. technology
>would be more desirable.  So, IMO, robot legs need to be
>better than human or not at all.


That's if you focus simply on the legs, and not on the overall humanoid
structure and the advantages that can result from that form.

Before I start, keep in mind that contra-grav rules. Period. Once that
technology is introduced into a setting, there can be no comparable
technology. It replaces ground travel, air travel and sea travel. It
completely and utterly changes the face of warfare.

From the biological point of view humans, and many other primates, are
largely vertical creatures. This increases our ability to overcome vertical
obstacles. When faced with a cliff face, a human might climb it. A wolf
would have to go around it. On the same token, it's entirely possible that a
humanoid robot might be able to climb obstacles that other vehicles (even
vehicles with more legs) would have to go around. Of course, that's if the
huge robot is in the traditional mecha vein.

If the robot is in the traditional mecha vein, with hands and such, then
swapping weapons back and forth between units becomes much easier. On the
battlefield, a human being can drop a jammed, broken or empty weapon and
pick up one from his fallen comrade. Technically, you could pretty much do
the same thing with robotic arms mounted onto other types of vehicle
bodies...

However, powered armor is a part of many sci-fi campaigns, Traveller
included. Therefore, it's assumed that the technology exists for the sort of
controls that come naturally to your average soldier, person, whatever.
Scale that concept up to building sized and it's even easier than riding a
bike. Strap in, and you're literally off and running.

In addition, the form is very flexible. A group of guys inside big robots
can be dropped off on a world. They can move and carry ammunition, dig,
create entrenchments, move prefabricated building sections as easily as
children playing with blocks. Of course, this works both ways: A group of
guys inside big robots can smash and tear open entrenchments in close. The
can muck around with enemy buildings.

Further, if they move just like people, they can hit the dirt, take cover,
crawl, crouch, all of the different things that people do to avoid being
hit.

So, there's alot of utility with big humanoid robots.

Of course, there are some serious disadvantages. They're really vulnerable.
Knock out a leg and the big robot is down for the count. They're big,
relatively flat, vertical targets. If you catch one in open terrain and have
a good weapon that can take it out, you can obliterate it.

Of course, these are just the military applications of such a design. The
peacetime uses aren't half bad either. They'd be useful for large
construction and demolition projects, for example. Really, you're only
limited by the tools you can devise for them to use. They could fill in for
dumptrucks, forklifts, backhoes, whatever you need, they'd likely be able to
do.

As a conveyance, the bipedal robot loses out, no doubt about it. The
flexibility of the humanoid form, however, is where the real advantages
would come into play. At least that's the way I see it.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #763
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 23 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 764



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: SOMETHING VERY ODD/ACQ
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
RE: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
re: Xenobiology 101
Re Contact
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re Platinum
Jagd-Il-Jigd
RE: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Aramis Web Site
Re: Re Platinum
Re Xeno-Bio 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Catastrophe
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: Locomotion: Bio. and Tech. (Xenobiology 101)
Traveller X-Files (was: traveller stuff)
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: Re Platinum
Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser..A WINNER!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:29:59
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: SOMETHING VERY ODD/ACQ

At 03:00 PM 6/23/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Doo bee or not doo bee?
>Mister Dee Eee Bee?
>When doo we see
>dee eh cee que, jee?

Whimper not in my direction, for my poor baby is in the mericiless hands of
BITS, and I but await either a ransom demand or commentary and directions
for rewrite.

Whimper in their direction.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 12:39:45
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

At 12:19 AM 6/23/99 -0500, you wrote:

>Chris, I think the SEAL *gave* the reporter her answer.  I don't
>doubt at all that when he pulls the trigger he has compartmentalised
>his mind so that he really doesn't feel anything except recoil.  How
>he handles it *later* might be another story, but I doubt he would
>*want* to talk to a reporter about that.

Speaking as a trained sniper, let me assure you that we do *not* sit down
and have an impromptu jam session to discuss our feelings after taking a
shot.  What we do is get the hell out of Dodge very carefully.  For some
reason, people dislike us, and have the amusing habit of not taking snipers
prisoner.

As for later.. we wouldn't be snipers if we had a problem with shooting and
killing.  We're not psychos, but we understand that we are professional
soldiers, and our job is to kill single targets using highly accurate rifle
fire at distances out to 1500 meters.

Interestingly enough, the Army did studies of combat infantrymen and found
that the mind set of most troops in combat is one of self-defense.  Even in
the attack, troops fight more out of a sense of self preservation than
anything else.

I had a conversation with a squid in Hawaii once.  When he found out I was
a sniper, he started waxing about Murder, Inc, and how we didn't fight
fair, etc. etc., I asked him what his MOS was.  He was a missileman on an
Ohio-class nuclear sub.  Evidently, carrying around more firepower than has
been used in all of human history and being ready to launch it on
population centers is more morally acceptable than crawling around with a
bolt-action rifle.

Rant over, back to Traveller.
- -- 
Douglas E. Berry - dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol,
violence, or insanity to anyone,
but they've always worked for me.
             -- Hunter S. Thompson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:44:40 -0500
From: "Moody, Danny M." <DMoody@bridge.com>
Subject: RE: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

On Wednesday, 23 June 1999 11:45, Hypercleats [SMTP:eris@sierratel.com]
wrote:
> >
> > Well, let's not assume that the mouth is at the front of the beast.
> > What if the
> > mouth is located centrally between its legs, like that of an octopus?
> > Then the
> > mid-legs could be used for food-gathering, with the outer legs splayed
> > wide for
> > traction during this maneuver.
> 
> Now that is an alien. I love it.
> 
> >
> >
> > Hmmm, pre-coffee imagination starting to run away with me.
> 
> Without coffee? You think without coffee? You have imagination without
> coffee? I
> am amazed, I thought coffee was a crucial nutritional requirement. ;)
> 
> > Picture the mouth as
> > a extensible burrowing tool. The creature resembles a four-legged
> > camera stand
> > (but lower to the ground), with the mid-legs and mouth digging away at
> > the
> > ground for prey (or adventuring PCs, of course).
> 
> Wicked little arbiter, are you? And here I was thinking herbivore grazer
> while you
> are implementing the same bio-engineering to get players eaten! Hmmm,
> octopi have
> nasty beaks too...

Assume that those 'stabilizer legs' are light, small, and retractable and
the large center leg is very muscular (due to it always moving and shaking
prey to death).  Although it would use its outrigger legs to move normally,
when startled, or when being chased, the creature folds up it outriggers and
pushes against the ground with its well-muscled mouth, and *bingo* - a
one-legged hopper!

I need to dig out my books tonight...

 -- vargr1                                              UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer   |   vargr1@jcn1.com
 are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris.             | dmoody@bridge.com
             ** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **           

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:52:21 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

ringrose@ascent.com wrote:
> 
> Maybe I'll go look at the videotape again.  But I suspect that either
> you are misinterpreting the comment or it is out of context.
> 

That's entirely possible. If you get a different interpretation, please post it.

> Nature cheats in this way, too.  If you take a human cadaver and swing its
> leg, it swings at (approximately) a normal walking pace.

I don't even want to know how you came by that information. :-)

>   I don't know if there are advantages to having independent legs or not, but I
>   can see that the walking motion becomes much more complex when all legs move
>   independently. There must be an evolutionary advantage to having independent
>   legs. Anyone care to put forth an opinion?
> 
> *grin*
> Yes, there are advantages.  You can deal with non-level surfaces, you
> can deal with unexpected forces, and so on.
> 

Excellent points. 

> The question I have:
> Is the difference between 4 and 6 legs enough to actively select
> _against_ six legs?  I'm not sure.  For my trav universe, I'm just
> saying that Earth favors large 4-legged creatures by chance.
> 

Perhaps your review of the video will answer this question by doing a better job
of illustrating the disadvantages of 6 legs than I have done.

I can see an evolutionary advantage to six-legged creatures where the
consequences of losing stability are serious. Has anyone ever read Dragon's Egg,
by Robert Forward. That book, one of the best sci-fi stories ever written IMO,
details life on a neutron star. The consequences of falling over in a million-G
environment are very serious, and I would think that a six-legged creature would
have a natural advantage here.

> If you don't have grav vehicles, you want a walking tank for
> situations like deserts and swamps.  You can put large pads on the
> feet to put the weight on a larger surface area, and you can
> completely enclose the leg in a flexible material, keeping the
> sand/mud out of the mechanism.

The vehicle design rules in MT handle this method of locomotion. In fact, one of
my players is custom-designing a "bike" (which really shouldn't use that name,
since it has no wheels) for his character. For a while, he was seriously
considering putting legs on it, but gave up because he wanted sub-orbital
capabilities.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:56:53 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

"Moody, Danny M." wrote:
> 
> Assume that those 'stabilizer legs' are light, small, and retractable and
> the large center leg is very muscular (due to it always moving and shaking
> prey to death).  Although it would use its outrigger legs to move normally,
> when startled, or when being chased, the creature folds up it outriggers and
> pushes against the ground with its well-muscled mouth, and *bingo* - a
> one-legged hopper!

I like it! Now imagine that this creature uses this technique not only for
self-defense, but also for attacking larger animals by leaping on them.

I can just see my PC group with their "what's he going to do, nibble my bum?"
attitude. Heh heh.



- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:02:15 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Xenobiology 101

Erwin Fritz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I like it! Now imagine that this creature uses this technique not only for
self-defense, but also for attacking larger animals by leaping on them.

I can just see my PC group with their "what's he going to do, nibble my bum?" attitude. Heh heh.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
.followed by another PC saying, "Hey, where'd you get that wiggly hat?"
while the original PC does a very funny dance...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:19:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Contact

>1) If a moon that circles a Gas Giant is tidally locked with that GG, how do
>you figure it's day/night cycle with reference to the system's primary?
>
it's day/night cycle will be it's orbital period around the GG, but
possibly with a false night during "High Noon" for the planet facing side.
The outward facing side will have no such problem

>2) Platinum has a nasty high melting point. But what I don't know is how
>ductile it is... Could someone who found a surface deposit use it as our
>ancestors used copper? Also, what TL would be the absolute min to build a
>furnace capable of melting it?
>
Not particularly ductile. Rough stuff to work, as it is hard and has a high
melting point. It's sheer resistance to deformation makes it popular for
mens wedding bands (at least amongst the oil-worker crowd crowd). The
melting point prevents it's use like early copper... much historical copper
was open smelted and poured into molds. Some tools were merely hammered
ores, but generally, most copper was smelted.

>3) Is there any possible reason for evolution to (seemingly ;) favor a
>quadrapedal form over a hexapedal form?

mild one, as I understand it: the bigger the critter, the more resources
required per limb; quadrapedal is stable enough for most purposes. HOWEVER,
had the fish that crawled ashore been 6 limbed, we'd probably be arguing
the other way...

Let's compare a few bodyforms
2 arms, 2 legs: Tool use/food reach, poor stability, upright stance
2 arms 2 legs and tail: Upright stance, tool use/food reach, good stability.
4 legs: No tools, good stability, can function missing one limb. can
sometimes use upright stance for short periods.
6 legs: very stable, can function missing 2 or possibly three limbs.
Coordination problems increased.
4 legs and 2 arms: tool use/food reach, good stability, can function
missing a leg, potentially semi-upright stance (especially if equipped with
a balancing tail).

The problem is that early life forms probably didn't need a whol lot of
reach, nor tool use. So, then, does the increased mobility outweigh the
increased bio-energy costs of growing two extra limbs? For predators,
probably (think of GW's WH40K tyranids), but for herbivores, less useful.
For fish, the porbable source of limb layouts for land-life, 2 extra fins
wouldn't be that big an advantage....

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:38:36 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Hypercleats writes:
<snipped>
"Also, could a tripodal critter compensate for "Fall Down 
Syndrome" by using a counterweight? I am visualizing a 
giraffe like "neck" on which might be it's sensory organs. 
Like an upside-down pendulum."
<snipped>

	Many mammals use their tails as a counter-weight, 
	and humans use their arms (just try running while
	keeping your arms still).

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:43:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Platinum

>I imagine that decent tools and low-tech weapons could be made with platinum
>though. It's nearly three times as heavy as iron, and though I've never
>tested it, I imagine it would keep a good edge. The problem is, of course,
>is being able to work it effectively, and most importantly, being able to
>melt it.

It does keep a good edge. I knew a derrikman with a platinum pocketknife...
a rather expensive utility toy.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:43:52 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Jagd-Il-Jigd

>Or
>in gas giants like the Jgd? BTW, are they really canonical? my arbiter
>never even mentioned them.

They appeared in a contact! article in JTAS. During it's sepearate
publication days. So they were published in GDW's Traveller-Organ... To me
that means canon, but others may disagree.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:51:16 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Xenobiology 101

Steve Daniels writes:
"Might not Xenos from different environments have different
mechanisms for maintaining dynamic stability?  Instead
of the fluid-in-a-tube model of humans, perhaps something
that 'tunes' them into their planet's magnetic field?  I don't
really know enough to speculate well on this subject.
What do aquatic animals use?"
<snipped>

	Many insects use the "hang" of their heads to assess
	their orientation with respect to gravity. Fish have a
	bone (otolith) in fluid-filled cavities on each side of 
	the head. The cavities are lined with sensory nerve 
	cells which detect where the bone has settled. Fish also
	have "swim bladders" that allow them to adjust their 
	buoyancy and help to keep them upright. Some organisms,
	such as tapeworms, don't worry about stability.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:47:16 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

- -----Original Message-----
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 4:37 PM
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101


> Many mammals use their tails as a counter-weight, 
> and humans use their arms (just try running while
> keeping your arms still).


Like Harrison Ford as Han Solo?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 13:52:47 -0700
From: Jay.Alverson@phs.com
Subject: Aramis Web Site

I had an old Traveller gm expound to me about TL in various SCI-FI movies
at the time:

CT Imperial   TL=15
Star Wars     TL=20-25
Star Trek       TL=30+

Anyone got any *SIMPLE* sensor rules for CT?

Thanks,

Jay Alverson
Jay.Alverson@phs.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:51:38 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Re Platinum

- -----Original Message-----
From: William F. Hostman <aramis@gci.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 4:45 PM
Subject: Re Platinum


>It does keep a good edge. I knew a derrikman with a platinum pocketknife...
>a rather expensive utility toy.


Quite expensive I'd say.

I'd only ever dealt with it a few times at work. I'm no metallurgist, but it
felt like the kind of metal that would hold a good edge.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 16:55:36 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Xeno-Bio 101

>"And has anyone heard of trichordates, presumably some ancient
>extinct life form whom I assume to have three spines."

Not spines, but neural cords... From what little I've seen &/or read, they
didn't have endoskeletons with spinal bones... just three nerve chords  and
modified trilateral symmetry.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:07:51 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Robert Ringrose writes:
<snipped>
"My responses will frequently talk about robots, rather than 
creatures, but I believe they're still applicable."

	They most certainly are, and give me ideas for robots
	as well.

"<snipped>
"Statically stable": if it completely stops moving, it won't 
fall over.  Examples: Cheeta standing still.  Four-legged 
robot which always has three legs on the ground, and the 
center of mass over the triangle formed by the grounded legs.  
This isn't quite right, actually, but the differences are 
irrelevant to the conversation.

"Dynamically stable": if it completely stops moving, it _will_ 
fall over, but over time it takes actions which keep it from 
falling over. Examples: Cheeta running.  Four-legged robot 
trotting (diagonal pairs)."

	This reminds me of a related issue: some people have 
	popularized the notion that scientists cannot explain
	how bees can fly. If you make a little model bee it
	will not fly like an airplane, but a bee flapping its
	wings is a totally different situation: it has been 
	observed to fly on occasion :-)

<snipped>
"The question I have:
Is the difference between 4 and 6 legs enough to actively 
select _against_ six legs?  I'm not sure.  For my trav 
universe, I'm just saying that Earth favors large 4-legged 
creatures by chance."

	The metabolic costs of the extra two legs (you touched
	on this earlier) might cause selection to favour four 
	unless having the other two	provides some advantage. On
	the other hand, if you start with six limbs you may
	just keep them. On the gripping hand, it's probably
	easier to loose two than to add two. IMTU quadrapeds
	and bipeds are common, but other-peds are found on a 
	few worlds.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:54:10 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Catastrophe

Hi all,

I have just come across an interesting book, which looks at the impact of
climate change on shaping societies. I thought that it may interest some of
the Gearheads (Planetary Systems) as a source of ideas..

The book is by David Keys and is called 'Catastrophe: An investigation into
the origins of the modern world'. It ties in the (UK) Channel 4 two part
series. The book details research into the possible domino effect of a
major volcanic event in the AD 500s which caused enough climatic impact to
have geo-political repercussions across the world. I've only skimmed it so
far, but it looked quite interesting. The Independent carried an article a
few weeks ago (haven't found it on their website yet).

ObTrav: It may prompt some ideas for societies in flux for worldbuilders...

Dom

Oh yes, ISBN 0-7126-8069-1 if you're interested

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:42:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

When arguing that four legs is most efficient because all large animals on
Earth have four legs seems to be very much arguing from limited
experience.  All vertebrates have common ancestors and are constrained by
the limits placed on them by their ancestor's biology.  You can't simply
evolve another pair of legs, evolution doesn't work that way.  Parts can
be modified, but if you don't have the potential for X in your DNA your
offspring will never develop X.  Stephen J. Gould has numerous excellent
books on related topics, the one on Burgess shale life (call IIRC
_Wonderful Life_) is especially relevant.  His point is primarily that 
life looks as it does today largely through a combination of both chance 
and adaptation.  If teh chance resulst were a bit different, life today 
might look very odd indeed.

Given that both six and four legs work (examples of 6-legged locomotion
taken from arthropods and the comments regarding research at MIT) I think
we could expect both types of critters.  Also, since four legs usually
work better than two for walking I can easily see a whole Phyla of critter
which evolved with four walking legs and two other limbs which can
variously serve as mouth-parts, attack claws, grooming tools or
manipulators depending upon the species in question.  Instead of centaurs,
I would expect such creatures to look more like ordinary quadrupeds with
arms, but I'm sure numerous other options are also possible. Given the
vast diversity of life on Earth, little would surprise me in the universe. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:58:01 -0400
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: Locomotion: Bio. and Tech. (Xenobiology 101)

  From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>

  ringrose@ascent.com wrote:

  > Aaah.
  > "Statically stable": if it completely stops moving, it won't fall
  > over.  Examples: Cheeta standing still.  Four-legged robot which
  > always has three legs on the ground, and the center of mass over the
  > triangle formed by the grounded legs.  This isn't quite right,
  > actually, but the differences are irrelevant to the conversation.
  >
  > "Dynamically stable": if it completely stops moving, it _will_ fall
  > over, but over time it takes actions which keep it from falling over.
  > Examples: Cheeta running.  Four-legged robot trotting (diagonal
  > pairs).

  Won't dynamic stability depend on an good inner ear (the correct
  name totally escapes me at the moment)?  I'm guessing without a
  really good idea of the gravity vector (which way down is) and
  where it is in relation to the COG, that the Cheetah would be
  dynamically "unstable" and fall over if it leaned too far in a turn.

As usual, yes and no.
A Cheetah depends on its sense of balance.  It is built that way, to
operate on the edge of the running envelope.

However, it is possible to create a robot which runs (not walks, but
runs) on mostly flat terrain with no sensing.  This includes no sense
of "down".  You can even make it stable -- if you give it a moderate
push in any direction, it will come back to its previous motions.
Trust me on this, running made stupid was my doctoral thesis. :>

Of course that is an extreme no sensible animal will reach.  However,
I believe difficulties in sensing would simply cause the animals to
evolve into a state which depends less on the unreliable senses.  I
believe successful legged robots will be _built_ to be stable, even
while running.

  Presumably, robots would use gyro's to deal with this.

Gyros have two uses: sense down, and reorient the robot.  In a robot
such as the ones in the Leg Lab, it is only used for sensing because
it is a research lab.  In a production robot, I would expect any gyros
to be used for stabilization in an emergency, but not during normal
use.

  Personally, I hate bipedal robots in futuristic settings,
  especially when they get to be building sized.

Me too.

	-robert ringrose
	 ringrose@ascent.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:22:44 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Traveller X-Files (was: traveller stuff)

> From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: traveller stuff
> 
> >I did post to the list that in my Traveller universe, the Roswell
> >incident in 1947 was the crash of a Vilani vessel.  That might be a fun
> >scenario to play out, with the PCs as either the injured Vilani crew
> >trying to get a message home or as USAF personnel or as outsiders trying
> >to figure out what happened.
> >
> >--Glenn
> Maybe Mulder isn't chasing the "grey" or the Alphans from G:Atomic Horror 
> but Vilani in league with the Trilateral Commission :)

The greys and whatever we see in the literature today are (pick one): 
Hiver manipulations; disinformation produced by the shadow government to
distract Mulder and others from learning that the aliens are just as
human as we are; disinformation produced by the local Vilani governor
for the same purpose (his or her attitude is, "I don't have any real
resources to deal with these other humans and the central government
doesn't care, but I perceive them as a real threat to the Ziru Sirka --
so I'll do whatever I have to to preserve the Empire for my own,
sacrosanct, lifetime").

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 14:44:38 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

> From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
> Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
> 
> Chris Seamans posted:
> >
> >Personally, I think it was a gauche question, which David might have meant
> >by asinine. When I read the message the meaning came across as: a question
> >that people with low I.Q. might ask since the answer is so plainly obvious
> >to everybody.
> 
> Agreed. The use of the word "asinine" was a poor choice

> "Gauche" would have been a much more accurate choice,
> exactly for the reason you've stated.

I don't see why "the answer is so plainly obvious to everybody."  It
certainly is not obvious to me.  "Recoil" is the physical sensation one
feels when shooting a firearm, but the question also -- even primarily
- -- inquired about the sniper's emotional state.  That's a subject about
which the reporter (probably) has no personal knowledge, nor does her
audience.  

(I thought the answer was fair and concise; the sniper in effect said
that he feels only the physical sensation, and no emotion.)  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:18:36 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: Re: Re Platinum

Apparently it is a tough metal.
A friend wanted his wedding band to be platinum, but had an extremely
difficult time finding one. I am not sure that he did.
The jewelers all told him that it was too hard for rings.  Where a gold or
silver ring could be cut off easily, platinum ring might necessitate the
removal of the finger too, or so they claimed.

TV
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:14:29 -0700
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser..A WINNER!

At 12:05 AM 6/23/99 -0500, Eris wrote:
>You know, I suspect you can find similar conditions around various
>hot springs too.  Heck, you'll find people *paying* big bucks to
>soak themselves in them.  Of course, instead of methane you're more
>likely to get the strong smells of sulfur.  ;-p

You don't get the doubling on the atmospheric pressure in these areas.


Jimmy Simpson
      nimrodd@fastlane.net

"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
                       -Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #764
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 23 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 765



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Re Platinum
Re: GURPS: Trav questions
Re: The Uplift Question
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: GURPS: Trav questions
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Locomotion: Bio. and Tech. (Xenobiology 101)
Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Crawfish! (was: Re: Locomotion: Bio. and Tech.)
Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Questions for a problem
Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 19:55:42 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Re Platinum

Thomas Vickers wrote:

> Apparently it is a tough metal.
> A friend wanted his wedding band to be platinum, but had an extremely
> difficult time finding one. I am not sure that he did.
> The jewelers all told him that it was too hard for rings.  Where a gold or
> silver ring could be cut off easily, platinum ring might necessitate the
> removal of the finger too, or so they claimed.
>
> TV

My mother and her sisters can't wear a lot of metals (mostly copper, silver
and gold, iirc) because their skin turns green and black where the metal
touches after a time.  Its that hypo-allergenic whatsis.  Either that, or
we're part faerie folk and/or lycanthropes.  I think I have it too, but
I don't wear any rings or necklaces and never have.

Anyhoo, her latest husband (don't ask), had her wedding ring made of
platinum.  Pricey!!  Took him a good long time to even find the place
that would make it.

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:21:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Trav questions

>1.) Star Mercs - First In is like an updated Book 6: Scouts. Is Star Mercs
>an updated Mercenary? Is it detailed an in depth in relation to mercs in the
>Imperium?

Yes and yes.

>2.) Behind the Claw - Does BtC have information that might be useful to
>non-Marches campaigns? In other words, is it worth buying if I will never
>run a traditional Spinward Marches campaign?

Some information on megacorporations, but not enough to be worth buying if
your campaign isn't set in the Marches.

>3.) Aliens I: Vargr and Zhodani: Is the information on the Vargr and Zhodani
>very detailed? Are the other races included fleshed out and useful in
>campaigns? Is there any generic stuff on building races specifically for
>Traveller, and pointers about how races interact with the Imperium?

Yes, but not as much as in the DGP books. Yes. No.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:21:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

>	Fair enough.  They're still likely to have some internal security
>forces though.  Canada still has an army even though they have no foreign
>security commitments and no fear of invasion.

No foreign security commitments? Tell that to our chaps currently in Europe
as part of our NATO commitment! And then there's the peacekeepers: Canada's
armed forces have been part of _every_ UN operation.

Mind you, we're not worried about another American military invasion.
Figure you chaps learned you lesson the last time. (Besides, your economic
onvasion is working.)

Historical fact: during the world wars we had a greater proportion of our
population under arms, and converted more of our economy to wartime
production, than the US did. Of course, with less than ten percent of the
US population we were still outnumbered.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:17:38 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn M. Goffin <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 6:01 PM
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")


>I don't see why "the answer is so plainly obvious to everybody."  It
>certainly is not obvious to me.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. This will be my last comment in the
thread not just because it's off topic, but it seems that every post gets
misunderstood ;)

David posted a message to the list, calling the question that the reporter
asked asinine. I questioned the asininity (TM) of the question.

In other words, I read the message at face value: I thought that what David
meant by saying the question was asinine was this: The question is a stupid
question. Generally, the only stupid questions are those that everyone knows
the answer to.

However, later in responding to Eris, I said that the question may have been
gauche: In other words, it's not the kind of question that someone should
just walk up and ask out of nowhere, as it is a potentially touchy subject.

I mentioned the possibility that David had meant the question was asinine in
that respect. He agreed. Misunderstanding is over.

>"Recoil" is the physical sensation one
>feels when shooting a firearm, but the question also -- even primarily
>-- inquired about the sniper's emotional state.  That's a subject about
>which the reporter (probably) has no personal knowledge, nor does her
>audience.

>
>(I thought the answer was fair and concise; the sniper in effect said
>that he feels only the physical sensation, and no emotion.)


To the best of my knowledge, nobody seems to be questioning the validity of
the question in and of itself, nor the validity of the SEAL's answer. Just a
misunderstanding based on imperfections in the language. ;)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:17:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

In mail you write:

>>D. C. Phelps wrote :-
>>> Only one problem with the above scenario is that I expect that most nasty
>>> waste in Traveller gets dealt with just like we do it right now.    It
> gets
>>> burned in as hot a furnace as can be arranged.
>>
>>Once fusion power is readily available, no.
>>Plasma torch the waste and recycle the raw material stream.
>
>
> Sorry i didn't I dentify the waste.  If it is organic without an admixture
> of metals, i.e. spent solvents,  biologicals, etc. it would still probably
> get burned.  That is the simplest and most certain solution.

And with proper "stack scrubbers" even stuff containing metals can be
dealt with. You wind up with an ash which might even be worth
re-processing for metals. 

Matter of fact, I'm toying with a couple of real-life ideas for dealing
with certain medical wastes ("sharps", and dental x-ray film "backing")
that resembles this. Heat in a low/no oxygen until the organics start
to decompose (pyrolisis). The gases thus generated can often be
processed for fuel or even for producing oils/plastics. Once all the
organics are gone, feed in a reducing agent such as hydrogen to
scavenge the rest of the carbon, and reducing any metal oxides to
metal. Then process for the metals (iron in the case of "sharps" and
lead in the case of the film backing). 

>>Mine landfills, etc. if you don't have access to fusion power.
>>Bioremediation. Etc.
>
> Mines,  landfills, etc. are storage solutions they don't necessary solve the
> problem just contain it for the short term i.e. 10, 20, 50, 100 years.
> Unless other processes reduce the problem, natural degragation, half lives
> of both radioactive and chemical decay etc. it is still there.

I think he's talking about *mining* the old landfills etc. Which *does*
become an option fairly early.

> My
> understanding is the Love Canal stayed buried with little movement of
> contaminates until the clay cap was breached by subsequent development years
> later.

Specifically, the site was *fine* until the *city* (county?) dug a
trench right thru the middle of it to lay a sewer line. Ignoring all
sorts of warnings on the maps in the process. My personal opinion is
that said city should have had to make the payoffs, not the companies
who'd buried the wastes.

>>Fissile materials can be put into breeder reactors and more fuel
>>generated. Given the long history of civilisation in Charted Space, this
>>has to be going on (thorium -> uranium 233, uranium 238 to plutonium,
>>etc.) otherwise all the heavy radionuclides would have run out.
>
> Quite correct.

And non-fissionable radio-isotopes have a lot of uses too. Seperating
them out is actually a good idea. Use what you can, mix the rest into
blocks of "glass". 

>>[Tbousands of years of continued occupancy implies some attempt at
>>environmental management].
>>
>>> Now if you
>>> want to have a scenario where a loose load of radioactive waste, mega
> death
>>> in a large economy sized can,
>>
>>With sufficient velocity a tin of baked beans or confetti will be 'mega
>>death in a can'.
>
>
> True but we are not talking relativistic or even near relativistic speeds.
> We are talking about surface impact or atmospheric breakup of a medium sized
> object larger than a box car, smaller than a super tanker full of
> radioactive material.

Nuclear dampers make cleanup easy for impact sites. Stuff that *burns*
up in the atmosphere is another matter.

But frankly, right now we can afford to encapsulate nuclear material
such that it'll hit the ground intact and stay that way. That's what
they've done with the radio-isotope generators on probes to the outer
planets. 

Convert the waste into "glass": or other ceramic material, and give it
a good casing and you'll be able to dig it out of the crater, replace
the damaged casing, and re-ship it. 

>>Remember that your radioactive waste needs to be optimally dispersed. It
>>is unlikely to be prepared in such a manner to enable this. Contrast
>>this to BW agents that Ken Alibek describes in his book (a former
>>director of the Soviet biological warfare program).
>
> Quite correct from a scientific view point but I was talking, at least in
> part, about the social results.  Picture the political/economic results on a
> populace who think in terms of radioactivity as leprosy.   Any contact in
> their minds means unclean, Unclean, UNCLEAN.  

Such attitudes are common *now*. I seriously doubt that they'll survive
even 500 years from now, much less 3000.

> You can run but you can't hide from irrational fear.

But as centuries go by *without* the predicted disasters, the fear will
go away. Radiation will be about as feared as flooding or fire.
Something to worry about, and possibly a reason to avoid building in an
area with high hazard ratings, but not something to be paranoid about.
Remember, the fear of radiation is only a generation old. It *won't*
stay this virulent.

> These people have had
> centuries of history in which nukes have been used in war, radioactive hot
> zones perhaps a couple of centuries old on some planets.

Sorry, but the radioactivity from a blast won't last that long. Fission
by-products are no more radioactive than the original ore after 300
years. And fallout is pretty well dispersed. All the SF with high
radiation areas hundreds of years later is flat out *wrong*.

There's a simple rule of thumb involved here. The more radioactive
something is, the *shorter* the half-life. Radioactivity is measured in
Curies, which is basicly a measure of how many atoms decay per second.
Obviously, the longer the half-life, the fewer atoms decay in a given
time period. 

And once you've got HEPlar or other efficient space drive, kinetic kill
ordinance becomes cheaper than nukes. And it doesn't leave
radioactivity. So a lot of those wars will have the *same* destruction
without the radioactivity.

At TL??? they get nuclear dampers, which can clean up any rad hazard easily.

> They "know" the
> consequences and they don't want "it to happen here" "not in my back yard"
> becomes "not on my planet" thank you very much.

Again, you are basing attitudes *far* in the future on attitudes about
something a mere generation or two old. Attitudes *will* change.

And besides, they really *will* know the consequences. Not like now
where we have all sorts of folks giving different projections of what
*might* happen. 

I will note that 3-Mile Island had *more* things go wrong than even the
worst of the anti-nuke folks had put forth in any of their scenarios.
Yet instead of a major "China Syndrome" accident, we had a *minor*
radiation release. Chernobyl was about as bad as you can get short of
deliberately "dusting" an area with radio-isotopes. Yet the only *long
term* contamination is purely local. And this from a design that was
*criminally* negligient.

As the centuries go by, and it becomes obvious both how *rare*
accidents are and that they *aren't* the sort of "cosmic catastrophe"
that they've been made out to be, folks will develope a *realistic*
attitude towards the hazards. It's inevitable.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 17:51:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

In mail you write:

>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>> Actually, dumping stuff into a star is fairly difficult. To start with,
>> you need to kill the load's tangential velocity (orbital velocity)
>> *precisely*. It won't take much to turn that "impact" orbit into a near
>> miss which means that orbit later there's a nasty cloud of crud back
>> out there.
>> 
>> And just about every waste ever generated has *eventually* turned out
>> to be worth reprocessing for something. So instead of wasting 30-40
>> km/s of delta-V on trying to hit the star, invest maybe 10 km/s in
>> moving it to a generally useless asteroid or moon. If anybody ever
>> wants the stuff, it's there. And in the meantime it's a *long* ways
>> from anyplace important.
>
> I don't see why it costs less to put the waste on a moon or asteroid. 

Much less delta-V involved. Cost goes roughly as the *square* of the
required delta-V.

> You also have to hit the moon or asteroid *precisely*, don't you? (And
> they are a lot smaller than the star.)  In fact, you can't just hit it;
> you have to land the stuff there and off-load it.

You can't use "terminal guidance" when attempting to hit a star. It'll
fry before you are close enough to be *sure*.  Making it hardere to fry
increases the cost greatly. 

And at least for a moon sized object, you *don't* need to soft-land the
wastes. Any container sturdy enough to survive an accidental re-entry
(however unlikely that is, I'm sure the locals will require it) is
going to stay intact if you pick the right sort of trajectory for
impacting it. 

For an asteroid, you'll probably have some poor slobs who spend
six-month tours intercepting the incoming containers and placing them
in the tunnels on the asteroid. 

> On the other hand,
> you are correct that the waste would be recoverable if someday anybody
> wants it.

And sooner or later, they'll want it for *something*. Just as an
example, the current *commercial* source for a couple of metals is the
"flue dust" from processing molybdenite ore in Arizona. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:13:47 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: GURPS: Trav questions

Robert Prior wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> >2.) Behind the Claw - Does BtC have information that might be useful to
> >non-Marches campaigns? In other words, is it worth buying if I will never
> >run a traditional Spinward Marches campaign?
> 
> Some information on megacorporations, but not enough to be worth buying if
> your campaign isn't set in the Marches.

One other use would be to file off the world names, and use some of the
worlds in a subsector or sector of your own creation.

<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:20:27 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

>
>         The metabolic costs of the extra two legs (you touched
>         on this earlier) might cause selection to favour four
>         unless having the other two     provides some advantage. On
>         the other hand, if you start with six limbs you may
>         just keep them. On the gripping hand, it's probably
>         easier to loose two than to add two. IMTU quadrapeds
>         and bipeds are common, but other-peds are found on a
>         few worlds.
>
> Peez

Hanging out with Moties? Speaking of which, they are ALIEN! Has anyone
else read "The Mote in God's Eye", and what opinions are there on
Moties? Does anyone use them in their campaign? And to get off the
Xeno-Bio topic, what about the way Jump Drives work in that book? I have
seen that unlike Traveller campaigns I have played in, many folks out
their insert their own Warp field/Stutterwarp/Jump drive rules or borrow
from other games. I like the added kink of needing to find the right
point to "jump" from(Anderson Point was it? Alderson?)

I myself lean towards quadraped and biped life being more common than
others, but I have yet to "run" a campaign. I usually just help my
Arbiter-of-the-moment with building up his/her setting. I like that
aspect even more than playing, actually! Soon I will put up a page with
some of my more interesting Traveller ideas.

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:20:19 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Locomotion: Bio. and Tech. (Xenobiology 101)

Was written:

>Might not Xenos from different environments have different
>mechanisms for maintaining dynamic stability?  Instead
>of the fluid-in-a-tube model of humans, perhaps something
>that 'tunes' them into their planet's magnetic field?  I don't
>really know enough to speculate well on this subject.
>What do aquatic animals use?


Regarding crayfish I understand that they acually pick up a grain of sand
after they molt.  The pull af gravity on the grain of sand encased in a
special chamber orients them.  At least that is what I remember reading.

Dan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:35:13 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)

>> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
>> Subject: Re: Shipping stuff
>
>> ObTrav: A poor low tech planet, next to an industrial one, gets a waste
>> reprocessing plant as foreign aid. The locals aren't told all the dangers
>> by their leaders (who are busy fattening their offworld bank accounts) and
>> the mortality rate is climbing, although no one knows quite why.
>
>Does this make economic sense?  If you're going to send your waste
>off-planet, why not just shove it towards the sun?  I guess it depends
>on what the waste is.  Maybe there is something worth extracting from it
>that justifies the expense.

A point. Shoving it towards the sun is not complicated, but would require
careful aim. And imagine the liability suit if you missed!

To make my idea work, make the industrial world one with a fairly strong
environmental lobby and rampant lawyers. Waste is shipped to the low-tech
world for storage, incineration, or reprocessing. Messing manufacturing is
_also_ done at the low-tech world. Bhopal, anyone?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:35:18 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

>"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
>
>> > From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>
>> > Actually, dumping stuff into a star is fairly difficult. To start with,
>> > you need to kill the load's tangential velocity (orbital velocity)
>> > *precisely*. It won't take much to turn that "impact" orbit into a near
>> > miss which means that orbit later there's a nasty cloud of crud back
>> > out there.
>
>This would be bad. Very bad. But I thought it would be harder to NOT hit the
>star.

No, hitting is tougher. Stars are big, but space is bigger.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:35:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

>I'm no biologist, but it seems to me that any ground-dwelling species
>will evolve the same way. Natural selection will eliminate all but the
>most efficient designs, given enough time.

Not exactly. Natural selection will tend towards local maxima inside the
evolutionary phase space, but it won't necessarily be the most efficient.
Like the old joke with two guys and a bear, you don't have to outrun the
bear, just the other guy.


>> They can't grow new limbs this late in their development.
>>
>
>Sure they can. It is possible for a mutant bird to be hatched with two
>extra limbs. However, unless these limbs give that bird an advantage
>over its peers, it won't survive long enough to breed.

Again, not quite.

The bird might well breed even if it was at a disadvantage. Remember that
evolution works on averages, not individuals. Luck helps a lot.

As well, limbs are quite complicated. The chances of getting a whole new,
functional limb are small. Non-functional limbs are usually a definate
disadvantage (often crippling). Check out the latest Scientific American
for a small piece on multi-limbed frogs.



Two books you should read are:

"Dark Nature" by Lyall Watson

"Figments of Reality" by Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen

"The Collapse of Chaos" by Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen

(OK, I lied. That's three books.)

All are good explanations of biology, aimed at the intelligent layman, with
lots of footnotes so you can hunt more technical information if you choose.

Watson is looking at sociobiology, specifically the biological component of
evil. Lots of interesting stuff there. For example, you know that cuckoos
flip other birds out of the nest when they hatch. Pretty complicated
behaviour. Turns out that many birds flip their siblings out of the nest!
(Those birds on the lawn that "tried to fly too soon" were actually the
runts, flipped out by their stringer siblings.) From the parents
standpoint, more babies is better. From the babies standpoint, fewer
siblings is better. Thus the evolutionary conflict. Hyenas are even more
interesting.

Stewart and Cohen are a mathematician and biologist, looking at evolution
and conciousness from two perspectives. Neat stuff. Cohen has a reputation
for designing interesting beasties for science fiction writers.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:35:55 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Crawfish! (was: Re: Locomotion: Bio. and Tech.)

Daniel Phelps wrote:
> 
> Was written:
> 
> >Might not Xenos from different environments have different
> >mechanisms for maintaining dynamic stability?  Instead
> >of the fluid-in-a-tube model of humans, perhaps something
> >that 'tunes' them into their planet's magnetic field?  I don't
> >really know enough to speculate well on this subject.
> >What do aquatic animals use?
> 
> Regarding crayfish I understand that they acually pick up a grain of sand
> after they molt.  The pull af gravity on the grain of sand encased in a
> special chamber orients them.  At least that is what I remember reading.
> 
Not that it does the crawfish much good once you start to boil them. 
_Good_ eatin'!

True story:  At my first National Guard drill after moving to Louisiana,
my unit held a crawfish boil for NCOs and officers.  I told a friend of
mine, "I'll eat these things, but you'll have to give me a block of
instruction first!"  Even now, after seven years here, I'm only
proficient at Skill Level 1 crawfish eating (in other words, I _still_
haven't gotten up the nerve to suck the crawfish head).

ObTrav:  Unusual foods, that offworlders find disconcerting, disgusting,
and/or difficult.  IIRC, "crottled greeps" fill that niche in _The
Gripping Hand_. 

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:41:14 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)

Robert Prior wrote:
> 
> >> From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
> >> Subject: Re: Shipping stuff
> >
> >> ObTrav: A poor low tech planet, next to an industrial one, gets a waste
> >> reprocessing plant as foreign aid. The locals aren't told all the dangers
> >> by their leaders (who are busy fattening their offworld bank accounts) and
> >> the mortality rate is climbing, although no one knows quite why.
> >
> >Does this make economic sense?  If you're going to send your waste
> >off-planet, why not just shove it towards the sun?  I guess it depends
> >on what the waste is.  Maybe there is something worth extracting from it
> >that justifies the expense.
> 
> A point. Shoving it towards the sun is not complicated, but would require
> careful aim. And imagine the liability suit if you missed!
> 
> To make my idea work, make the industrial world one with a fairly strong
> environmental lobby and rampant lawyers. Waste is shipped to the low-tech
> world for storage, incineration, or reprocessing. Messing manufacturing is
> _also_ done at the low-tech world. Bhopal, anyone?

I'd use Sting, in the Sword Worlds subsector.  According to BtC, the
chlorine taint in the atmosphere tends to settle in low-lying areas. 
Sounds like a good place for making halogenated hydrocarbons, and the
atmosphere is _already_ tainted....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:00:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

In mail you write:

> How about something like those old Soviet satelites with plutonium fuel.
> Didn't one reenter a few years ago and splatter a radioactive foot print
> over Canada?
>
> Make it a larger object say an old space station, large pieces of Skylab
> came down here relatively intact, if it had had a load of radicoative fuel
> voila eco disaster!
>
> Incidently the air lock from Skylab reached us in one battered piece.

Sure, but those were re-entering from decaying orbits. Re-entry from a
botched transfer orbit would be faster.

Even so, the radio-isotope generators on US deep space probes *are*
designed to land *intact* in case of such an accident. You'd just dig
them out of the hole in the ground and haul them to a waste storage
site. If they came down in the ocean, they're stable enough to just
leave there, though if you can locate them, the "gentler" impact might
leave them worth refurbishing.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:35:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

In mail you write:

> "Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
>
>> > From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>>
>> > Actually, dumping stuff into a star is fairly difficult. To start with,
>> > you need to kill the load's tangential velocity (orbital velocity)
>> > *precisely*. It won't take much to turn that "impact" orbit into a near
>> > miss which means that orbit later there's a nasty cloud of crud back
>> > out there.
>
> This would be bad. Very bad. But I thought it would be harder to NOT hit the
> star.

Well, the good news is that the planet wouldn't be there when the dbris
cloud came back. Not the first time, anyway. 

The trick with hitting the star is that it takes *very* little sideways
velocity to turn an "impact" orbit into a "grazing" orbit.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:39:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Questions for a problem

In mail you write:

> Actually if it is a typical gas giant its orbital motion can probably be
> ignored as the effect on any moons would be insignificant.
>
> However what about the so called hot gas giants which orbit close to the
> primary. In these cases orbital motion of the gas giant would have a
> significant effect on the day/night of any moons.

Doesn't matter as only suicidal characters would try to land on such a
moon. For that matter, I don't think moons can have stable orbits if
the planet is that close to the star.

To check, figure out the force exerted on the moons by the star. Then
figure the force exerted by the planet. I'm fairly sure that the result
will be overwhelmingly in favor of the star. Which means that the moons
would be lost at some point as the planet got closer to the star.

> Beats me how you would work this out though.

It's possible to calculate the day of a moon, but I haven't done it in
years. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:45:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alien Earth - Brain Teaser

In mail you write:

> This is for all you world builders out there.
>
> I've just read about an area on Earth where radioactivity and
> heat from the planet's core raise the temperature of stone
> to a searing 120 degrees Fahrenheit, and the atmospheric
> pressure is doubled. Poisonous methane and hydrogen seep
> from the rock. Despite all this, people exist in the area for
> hours on end every day.

One of the *deep* African diamond mines.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #765
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 24 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 766



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)
Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
What is a month? (was Re: Contact)
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Webpage Query (was What is a month?)
Re: Evolution of number of legs (was Questions for a problem)
Re: Triage
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: Catastrophe
toxics
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 18:52:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)

In mail you write:

> My point is then a fortiori.  The original facts were "one planet next
> to another one"; that could mean in the same star system or different
> systems.  Once you're going to the expense of getting the waste off one
> planet, why not send it into the star?  Why either carry to another
> planet in the same system (and spend labor and other costs making a safe
> landing) or jump it to another system (with even greater labor and other
> costs for a week in jump)?

Believe it or not, in terms of energy (delta-V) requirements, the star
is the *hardest* place in the system to reach! It's easier to reach
system escape velocity than to hit the star!

To go from one planet to another, you basicly have to supply the
difference in orbital velocities. To escape from the system, you need
to add (1-sqrt(2)) of the planet's orbital velocity to the orbital
velocity. To hit the star, you have to kill *all* of the planet's
orbital velocity. And *cost* is roughly proportional to the *square* of
the delta-V.

So for Earth:

trip		delta-V		relative cost
- -------------	-----------	-------------
To Mars/Venus	~5-8 km/sec	1-2.6
system escape	~13 km/sec	6.8
solar impact	~30 km/sec	36

And for dumping on a planet, you don't need to "soft land" the waste. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 19:04:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)

In mail you write:

> Someone posted that it would be difficult to get it to not orbit the star. 
> That
> seems odd to me, but the guy is obviously quite educated, and I know squat on
> orbital dynamics.But I am with you on star-dumping for anything completely
> useless AND excessively dangerous.

Say you are starting from Earth. The earth is moving around the Sun at
about 30 km/sec. That's the tangential velocity (sideways). Depending
on the time of year, it might be moving in or out at maybe 1 km/sec
(radial velocity) because the orbit isn't a perfect circle. We'll
ignore that part.

So, if you kill 29 km/sec of that, it's still moving "sideways" at 1
km/sec. And moving radially at 0 km/sec. Now, the sun will start
pulling at it, so it'll move faster and faster towards the sun. But it
still has that sideways velocity. It'll take about 90 days to fall from
Earth orbit to the sun. So, in that 90 days, you've got that 1 km/sec
sidways component working. Over 90 days, that adds up to almost 8
million km! The sun is only something like 600 *thousand* km radius. 

See the problem?

You can get the package to the sun quicker by adding a radial component
to the velocity, and that *will* reduce the effect of any remaining
tangential velocity. But it takes a *lot* of extra radial velocity to
make a difference. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 19:29:28 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

>
> Watson is looking at sociobiology, specifically the biological component of
> evil. Lots of interesting stuff there. For example, you know that cuckoos
> flip other birds out of the nest when they hatch. Pretty complicated
> behaviour.

I saw a starling perch outside an oriole nest and chirp like mama untill the
tykes stuck their heads out. CHOMP!

> Turns out that many birds flip their siblings out of the nest!
> (Those birds on the lawn that "tried to fly too soon" were actually the
> runts, flipped out by their stringer siblings.)

Either that, or knocked out by my pruning trees. ;)  I always put them back,
and contrary to what I hear from others, Mom always takes them back. Of course
I hang out in the yard alot, so she "knows" me.

> From the parents
> standpoint, more babies is better. From the babies standpoint, fewer
> siblings is better. Thus the evolutionary conflict. Hyenas are even more
> interesting.

No doubt! IIRC, hyenas are hermaphroditic and give birth through their...
well, nevermind.

>
>
> Stewart and Cohen are a mathematician and biologist, looking at evolution
> and conciousness from two perspectives. Neat stuff. Cohen has a reputation
> for designing interesting beasties for science fiction writers.

Chirping Elf
BZA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 22:19:11 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: What is a month? (was Re: Contact)

In a message dated 6/23/99 3:21:11 PM US Eastern Standard Time, 
aramis@gci.net writes:

> it's day/night cycle will be it's orbital period around the GG...

Aaaagh.  This just isn't so, no matter how many of you say it :-).

Let me see if I can explain why the length of the moon's day is also
dependent on the orbital period of the gas giant around the primary
star.

Consider the Moon.  Its orbital period around the Earth -- that is, the
"sidereal month," the length of time it takes the Moon to complete
one 360-degree circuit -- is about 27 days, 8 hours.  How long is a
"day" on the Moon?  Well, we can tell that without having to actually
go there and time it.  Since the Moon always presents the same face
to the Earth, the lunar "day" must be equal to the time between one
full Moon and the next.  In that time, a point on the apparent center
of the Moon's surface will go from high noon through night and back
to high noon.

How long is the period between full Moons, the "synodic month"?
Turns out to be about 29 days, 12 hours.

The difference is because while the Moon orbits the Earth, the Earth
also orbits the Sun.  Both of these motions are in the same counter-
clockwise direction, if you're north of the plane of the ecliptic looking
back at the system.  So visualize this: at a given time, the Sun is
"straight up," and the Moon is on a line between the Earth and Sun.
It's now high noon on a point on the Moon directly opposite from the
Earth.  Start the clock running.  The Moon makes a 360-degree circuit
in one sidereal month, ending "straight up" from the Earth again -- but
the Earth has moved in the meantime, and is now somewhat above and
to the right of its earlier position.  As a result, the line between Earth
and Moon is now at an angle to the line from Earth and Sun, so the
point we marked earlier has not yet reached "high noon."  That takes
another couple of Earth-days to happen.

(Wish I could drop a decent animation into the e-mail at this point. :-)

The situation of the tide-locked moon of a gas giant is exactly the
same in this respect.  If the moon's orbital period is very short compared
to the gas giant's, then "one day equals one orbit" may be good enough
as an approximation.  If you want precision, though, you have to go
through a computation like the one in First In -- or like the formula Mr.
Buston gave a day or two ago, which ought to be mathematically
equivalent and is probably easier to work with.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 19:23:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

In mail you write:

>>Anyway, one of the SEALs doing the welcoming is apparently
>>a sharpshooter with lots of confirmed kills. He was
>>interviewed by some reporter and asked "What do you feel
>>when you shoot The Bad Guys?".
>>
>>His answer: "Recoil."
>
> For the life of me, I can't figure out why this is an asinine question.
>
> The fact of the matter is that the vast majority of people are *not* snipers
> with lots of confirmed kills... myself included. It's entirely possible that
> people who are not snipers with lots of confirmed kills might be interested
> in what a sniper feels when he shoots the bad guys, if he feels anything at
> all.

I suspect that the "recoil" answer is given because it's not *possible*
to explain the feelings to someone who hasn't been there. And that's
why the question is asinine. Any sort of *meaningful* answer is far to
long and complex for a soundbite.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 19:43:30 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

>
> Well, the good news is that the planet wouldn't be there when the debris
> cloud came back. Not the first time, anyway.

This is a sure bet? Is it because if the object hurled is hurled at any speed not
within a tight margin of error it won't come back at all, thus at the right speed
to enter orbit it has an orbital period similar to it's launch planet? Could this
cloud become a permanent or semi-perm system feature? I hope I am getting my
query across, sorry for sounding so disjointed. I know alot of variables are
still being left, open such as how much waste, what sort of world, steller type,
etc. I am sort of fishing, having caught scent of what may be great background.
Actually already is. Thanks!

>
>
> The trick with hitting the star is that it takes *very* little sideways
> velocity to turn an "impact" orbit into a "grazing" orbit.

Little enough to be caused by steller winds? Solar flare?

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 20:02:42 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Webpage Query (was What is a month?)

>
> > it's day/night cycle will be it's orbital period around the GG...
>
> Aaaagh.  This just isn't so, no matter how many of you say it :-).
>

I love that attitude! ;)
<snip>

>
> (Wish I could drop a decent animation into the e-mail at this point. :-)

Is there an alt.traveller.binaries? :D
<snip>

That all makes it really obvious to me, I doubt you need an animation at this
point.
If you had one I am sure someone would gladly show it on their Trav page. I
would. I was wondering in fact if there were any gaps to fill as far as
content. I am working on a Trav page with some sub-sector viewers (Spinward
Marches and a Alternate setting so far), Library Data, Deckplans and what
not. Is there something Undone out there? I will have some Trav oriented
GIF's and Icons, haven't seen many off those.

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 19:33:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Evolution of number of legs (was Questions for a problem)

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
> "Yep. Free-swimming fishes. It turns out that two sets of paired 
> fins (front and back) is both necessary and sufficient for 
> maneuvering. When amphibians developed from lungfish, the fins 
> evolved into feet.
>
> A "middle" pair of fins would be wasted on a fish, so it's 
> *really* unlikely to survive as a trait long enough to make it 
> to the land animal stage, which is the first place it might be 
> of use.
>
> The other "multi-legged" species are pretty much restricted to 
> "near water" or small size because of things like exoskeletons. 
> So, sad to say, centauroid aliens are unlikely except as the 
> result of *major* genetic manipulation somewhere along the line.
>
>         There are many aquatic animals that have a number of legs
>         and/or fins that is different than 4. Certainly, the 
>         vertebrate fish design is efficient, and as allowed this
>         group to survive and diversify, but it may not be the only
>         (or even the best) competitive design.

My point is that the fish->amphibian->reptile path pretty much
precludes hexapods.

>         There are those who
>         have argued that animals much bigger than condors could not
>         fly, that animals as big as Brontosaurus could not stand
>         without water to support their weight, that insects are 
>         restricted to their current maximum size because of their
>         lack of lungs and an efficient circulation sustem. All of
>         these arguments are demonstrably false. I can imagine, for
>         example, animals on a swampy world evolving in shallow,
>         root-choked water. These animals cannot swim freely, 
>         instead use their 6 arms to climb on the tough roots of 
>         the trees that rise out of the water above them. Eventually
>         some find that they can survive for short periods climbing
>         up on the tree's branches, safe from the predators below...

But they can't have evolved from free-swimming fishes. You've described
how we get such things as land-crabs and spiders. But exo-skeletons
*do* impose severe size limits. Especially if you need to molt the way
crabs do. You wind up limited by the maximum size that can survive out
of water *without* the support of the exoskeleton.

If you check, you'll find that *none* of the more than 4 limbed
critters have internal skeletons. The ones with external skeletons are
limited as above. The ones with no skeletons are even *more* limited. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 19:28:33 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Triage

In mail you write:

> On 06/14/99 at 12:01 AM,  "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk> said:
>
>>Triage splits casualties into three groups:-
>>1. Those whose injuries are not serious (e.g. walking wounded) 
>>2. Those who will probably die, or at least not benefit, from
>     treatment.
>>3. Casualties in need of immediate attention.
>
> I'm no expert, but my understanding of Triage in disaster or
> battlefield situations is a little different from what I've seen
> posted.  There are three groups (well, really four groups if you
> include those with minor injuries), and they are treated in this
> order:
>
> 1.  Those who will probably live *if* they get immediate treatment.
>     Treating them is the most efficient use of resources, if saving
>     lives is the goal. 
>
> 2.  Those who will probably live even without *immediate* treatment.
>     Get this group ambulatory (or at least transportable) and out
>     of the danger area where more resources are available so their
>     long term disabilities will be minimized.
>
> 3.  Those who will probably die even with immediate treatment.
>     Don't waste valuable time or resources on them until you've
>     saved as many lives as you can.  Just make them as comfortable
>     as you can, knowing you probably won't save any of them.  It has
>     always seemed heartless to me, but I can see the logic.
>     
> 4.  Those with minor injuries who will certainly live.  Ignore them,
>     let them treat themselves and each other, or remove them
>     immediately from the danger zone.  Don't spend your medical
>     resources on them in the emergency area.  Treat their non-life
>     threatening wounds elsewhere if/and when time permits.
>
> My understanding may be totally at odds with the way triage is
> taught, but I thought I'd thrown my 2 cents out there.

What you've got is the *ideal* case. The problem is that since *time*
is one of the "limited resources" in most triage situations, you have
to consider things like "should we *really* devote 12 man-hours to this
really bad case, or should we put him in group 3 and use the time to
save these other *12* people?"

There are similar arguments for other resources such as available blood
or plasma for transfusions.

There *will* be people that you *could* save, but only at the cost of
letting *several* other people die. That's why triage is so unpleasant.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:40:03 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 1999 12:39 PM
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")


> At 12:19 AM 6/23/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >Chris, I think the SEAL *gave* the reporter her answer.  I don't
> >doubt at all that when he pulls the trigger he has compartmentalised
> >his mind so that he really doesn't feel anything except recoil.  How
> >he handles it *later* might be another story, but I doubt he would
> >*want* to talk to a reporter about that.
>
> Speaking as a trained sniper, let me assure you that we do *not* sit down
> and have an impromptu jam session to discuss our feelings after taking a
> shot.  What we do is get the hell out of Dodge very carefully.  For some
> reason, people dislike us, and have the amusing habit of not taking
snipers
> prisoner.
>
> As for later.. we wouldn't be snipers if we had a problem with shooting
and
> killing.  We're not psychos, but we understand that we are professional
> soldiers, and our job is to kill single targets using highly accurate
rifle
> fire at distances out to 1500 meters.
>

This part I do agree with, it would be what sets you and other's in that
skill apart from the ordinary grunt.  As to how *every* sniper feels after a
kill away from danger, left to relax and think, well, I'm sure that it is a
very different, personal thing for the individual (some perhaps thinking
that they are murderers [note: in the very extreme!!], other's thinking they
need a beer after a good days work, while some may think, "Damn!  What a
buzz!, and other thoughts and variations).

As a former assault trooper (mounted infantry), I personally admire the
skill, but where I could have been fielded with nine other's out of the back
of an APC and (in theory) fire off at dark shapes in the scrub to kill the
enemy, or at men charging at me trying to kill me back, I don't know if I
could get as "personal" in a me-on-one situation (as I see a sniper action)
and like it very much... different march, different drum.  And for the big
talkers who haven't been there, but say they could do it (snipe) without a
blink, I'll add that I have NOT had to fight for my country, I believe I
would perform on the battlefield as expected due to reflexes drilled into me
at the time plus a deep patriotic bond for my Australia... other than that,
I have no promises in all honesty, on how I would have reacted if I had to
do it?  It would be nice to say, "I love my country and will kill and die
for her anytime she asks" but, let's face it, history is full of people who
did say that (or similar) and never lived up to the boast when put to the
test!

> Interestingly enough, the Army did studies of combat infantrymen and found
> that the mind set of most troops in combat is one of self-defense.  Even
in
> the attack, troops fight more out of a sense of self preservation than
> anything else.
>

The reason assault rifles became "the norm" was because tests showed that
bolt/auto rifles used in conflicts were being used at "average" ranges of
50m and that in the heat of a firefight, most if not all troops involved did
not aim the weapon, but pointed it in the general direction of the person
they wanted to kill (from the shoulder, un-aimed at a chosen target).  Why?
Because they were scared shitless!  There was a lot of noise and (in their
minds), a lot of lead flying about their heads trying to kill them!  In
otherwords, getting off more shots at the enemy than he could get at you for
the purpose of self preservation as you say.  This study was conducted
during the war, circa 1942 IIRC.

Of those who didn't fire un-amied at the enemy I should note, there was an
almost equal proportion of men sub-divided (from those who fired) into those
that hid and did not fire, those that hid and fired periodically, and those
that ran or otherwise removed themselves from imminent danger... which gets
back to the individual mindsets.

> I had a conversation with a squid in Hawaii once.  When he found out I was
> a sniper, he started waxing about Murder, Inc, and how we didn't fight
> fair, etc. etc., I asked him what his MOS was.  He was a missileman on an
> Ohio-class nuclear sub.  Evidently, carrying around more firepower than
has
> been used in all of human history and being ready to launch it on
> population centers is more morally acceptable than crawling around with a
> bolt-action rifle.
>

Yep, I started in Artillery!  I'm pretty sure I would have been able to fire
over hills at targets I never knew what were what!  Although, during WWII,
there was a high incidence of bomber pilots and crew that suffered mental
problems from bombing faceless targets too!  We are complex animals...

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:47:42 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

Robert Prior wrote:
> 
> >I'm no biologist, but it seems to me that any ground-dwelling species
> >will evolve the same way. Natural selection will eliminate all but the
> >most efficient designs, given enough time.
> 
> Not exactly. Natural selection will tend towards local maxima inside the
> evolutionary phase space, but it won't necessarily be the most efficient.
> Like the old joke with two guys and a bear, you don't have to outrun the
> bear, just the other guy.
> 

That's actually what I meant. I should have said that evolution produces
a bunch of different designs, some good, some not. Natural selection
weeds out all but the most efficient of the ones produced, even though
there may be better designs that weren't produced.

> >Sure they can. It is possible for a mutant bird to be hatched with two
> >extra limbs. However, unless these limbs give that bird an advantage
> >over its peers, it won't survive long enough to breed.
> 
> The bird might well breed even if it was at a disadvantage. Remember that
> evolution works on averages, not individuals. Luck helps a lot.
> 
If the bird's extra limbs prove to be hindering its ability to survive,
then the mutation will not last more than a few generations. I think
that's what your saying, and if it is, then we're in agreement.

> As well, limbs are quite complicated. The chances of getting a whole new,
> functional limb are small. Non-functional limbs are usually a definate
> disadvantage (often crippling). Check out the latest Scientific American
> for a small piece on multi-limbed frogs.
> 

The chances are small, but finite. And, over the course of millions of
years, the chance may appreciate enough to be significant.

I think we're in agreement here; we just phrase things differently.



- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:05:16 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Catastrophe

>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Catastrophe
.
>The book is by David Keys and is called 'Catastrophe: An investigation into
>the origins of the modern world'. It ties in the (UK) Channel 4 two part
>series. The book details research into the possible domino effect of a
>major volcanic event in the AD 500s which caused enough climatic impact to
.

  Apparently Japan had a couple incidents with major national effects in
the 18th century; the documentation is largely complete from most POV's.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:06:17 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Subject: toxics

In Larry Niven's "The Woman in Del Ray Crater", he puts forth the idea of
launching well packaged fission waste products to  single moon crater for
disposal.  When better and cleaner sources became available, they stopped.
The Lunies found the material later and started sending in robot tractors
to haul the stuff in for processing.


- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
          You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
                 http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:37:03 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

>
> I think we're in agreement here; we just phrase things differently.

Also we are discussing highly hypothetical situations involving a variety of
factors such as climate, planetary composition, size, distance from primary,
etc. Radiation increases the chance for mutation, and although I started off
being resistant to more legs evolving on an organism after it's general
morphology has been determined, I believe this is in part a terracentric
prejudice. Given a higher degree of radiation in an ecosystem, a large enough
population  and rapid enough procreation I might find it more believable. This
is a real dicey situation though, and we have no "real data" on
extra-terrestrial evolution.

Wonderful ideas though!

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:58:05 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)



>
> A point. Shoving it towards the sun is not complicated, but would require
> careful aim. And imagine the liability suit if you missed!
>
> To make my idea work, make the industrial world one with a fairly strong
> environmental lobby and rampant lawyers. Waste is shipped to the low-tech
> world for storage, incineration, or reprocessing. Messing manufacturing is
> _also_ done at the low-tech world. Bhopal, anyone?
>
>

*tongue firmly in cheek*
Am I cynical, or is this a sign of the times?  The subject of legalities and
lawsuits has arisen often lately... a starship crash where no-one knows
where they are... shooting waste off into the sun... etc...  :^))

- -- The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:14:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

In mail you write:

>> Leonard Erickson writes:
>> "Yep. Free-swimming fishes. It turns out that two sets of paired
>> fins (front and back) is both necessary and sufficient for
>> maneuvering. When amphibians developed from lungfish, the fins
>> evolved into feet.
>
> O.K. I like this, but what about life evolved on a more arid planet?

Well, unless evolution follows a *really* different path, life is still
going to start in the water and move onto land later.

We've seen three cases of this on Earth (four if you count plants).

1. Arthopods moved onto the land from seaside areas. (Crabs, etc). 
2. Insects either moved onto the land or evovled from arthropods.
3. lungfish crawled between shallow lakes/puddles.

The first two are limited by exoskeletons. The third isn't. 

> Or in gas giants like the Jgd? 

Gas giants are effectively a *big* ocean, with no land. And no "bottom"
either, at least as far as dwellers in the regions humans might contact
are concerned. This is going to limit options a *lot*. Without "shallow
water", a *lot* of forms aren't going to evolve. Squid/nautilus type
critters are the only likely ones to have mainiplulatory appendages.
Alas, I suspect that they evolved from a bottom dwelling form such as
an octopus. 

For that matter, what is there to manipulate?

>> A "middle" pair of fins would be wasted on a fish, so it's
>> *really* unlikely to survive as a trait long enough to make it
>> to the land animal stage, which is the first place it might be
>> of use.
>
> But how about a catfish like critter which evolves prehensile whiskers?

Ok, it's a possibility. But so is an Elephant. :-)

>> The other "multi-legged" species are pretty much restricted to
>> "near water" or small size because of things like exoskeletons.
>
> Is there any reason endoskeletons exclude exoskelotons? The terrapins
> come to mind, as do armadillos.

That's *armor*, not skeletal (ie support) materials.

And the trick required would be for a 6 or more limbed form to move
from *exo*-skeletal to endo-skeletal. That's *really* unlikely.

>> So, sad to say, centauroid aliens are unlikely except as the
>> result of *major* genetic manipulation somewhere along the line.
>>
>>         There are many aquatic animals that have a number of legs
>>         and/or fins that is different than 4. Certainly, the
>>         vertebrate fish design is efficient, and as allowed this
>>         group to survive and diversify, but it may not be the only
>>         (or even the best) competitive design. There are those who
>>         have argued that animals much bigger than condors could not
>>         fly, that animals as big as Brontosaurus could not stand
>>         without water to support their weight, that insects are
>>         restricted to their current maximum size because of their
>>         lack of lungs and an efficient circulation sustem. All of
>>         these arguments are demonstrably false.
>
> Now wait a sec, isn't the last bit about insects true? I know the others
> have been disproven, and that bugs used to be bigger, but not elephant
> sized.

You will *not* find an insect that lives under Earth-like conditions
that has a point more than an inch from the surface of its body. That's
the max distance that air can diffuse thru the spiracles that insects
use for respiration. 

Spiders get bigger because they have a rudimentary form of lung. 

>> I can imagine, for
>>         example, animals on a swampy world evolving in shallow,
>>         root-choked water. These animals cannot swim freely,
>>         instead use their 6 arms to climb on the tough roots of
>>         the trees that rise out of the water above them. Eventually
>>         some find that they can survive for short periods climbing
>>         up on the tree's branches, safe from the predators below...
>>
>> Peez
>
> Now that is a wonderful idea. But we always seem to go to even numbers
> on limbs. What about asymetrical designs like some starfish? And has
> anyone heard of trichordates, presumably some ancient extinct life form
> whom I assume to have three spines.

Actually "chordate" refers to the spinal chord *not* the spine.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #766
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 24 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 767



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: First In - Aion homeworld errata
Re: The Military & the Media...
Re: Shipping stuff
World Builder's Teaser?
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Aramis Web Site
[OT] _The Onion_ and Aliens
Re: TLs of Star Wars and Star Trek
Re: Xenobiology 101
FTL == time travel
Re: TLs of Star Wars and Star Trek
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: Webpage Query (was What is a month?)
RE: The Uplift Question
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: First In - Aion homeworld errata
RE: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)
RE: What is a month? (was Re: Contact)
RE: TLs of Star Wars and Star Trek
Re: Crawfish! (was: Re: Locomotion: Bio. and Tech.)
FW: *URGENT* GURPS Traveller 2nd Edition
New Computer Chip Size Limit
re: Xenobiology 101 (kind of OT)
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 21:35:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: First In - Aion homeworld errata

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 6/22/99 5:54:06 PM US Eastern Standard Time, 
> John.Buston@tesco.net writes:
>
>> Using First In rules the Aion homeworld cannot be the fourth planet in a K3
>>  system, which is way outside the biozone.  The third planet would be just
>>  outside the biozone as required, and as hinted at by planet two being the 
>> only
>>  planet in the biozone.
>
> Only in this crowd would someone submit an erratum for a vignette :-).
>
> Point noted.  When I have time (yeah, right) I'll decide whether this 
> actually
> warrants an erratum or not.  Its already been pointed out to me that the
> rules for placing orbits are a bit too grainy -- if you tinker with the Bode
> constant you can probably design systems where the planets are more
> closely spaced.  A K3 V isn't going to have a very wide life zone, though.

Do be aware that the Bode rules are one of many possible spacings that
fulfil a *required* condition. Simply put, no planet may have an orbit
whose period is related to that of another "near" orbit by an integer.
And simple fractions (2/3, 3/2, etc) are likely ruled out as well. 

The reason being that if (for example) there's a 2:1 relationship, that
means that every other orbit, the "inner" planet will be at closest
approach to the outer one AT THE SAME POINT IN ITS ORBIT. That means
that the gravitational effects on each other *add up*, resulting in one
or both of the bodies being shifted to a different orbit.

And during formation of a system, the initial dust cloud will wind up
with bands depleted oth material due to this effect as soon as the
first bodies start to form. Even the current (very thin!) asteroid belt
shows this sort of resonance gap behavior. It's also responsible the
gaps in Saturn's rings.

I don't have Kepler's Laws handy, but one of them relates the ratio of
orbital diameters to the ratio of orbital periods (As I recall, the
square of one equals the cube of the other). A bit of work with that
could likely produce a list of "forbidden" orbits in a system.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:22:24 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Thursday, June 24, 1999 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")



>
> I suspect that the "recoil" answer is given because it's not *possible*
> to explain the feelings to someone who hasn't been there. And that's
> why the question is asinine. Any sort of *meaningful* answer is far to
> long and complex for a soundbite.
>

I thought the answer was simply "witty" and I liked it.  However, I also
suspect the reason for it was sarcasm?  A smart-arsed answer to someone the
sniper may not respect?  After all, if he enjoys his work, how would the
general public react to him saying, "I feel elation!  Man, what a buzz!
Nothing like poppin' a lousy towelhead in the desert" (or substitute
suitable baddy/country/location of the moment)?  Not the best PR I suppose?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 23:47:41 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

>Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1999 19:43:30 -0700
>From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
>Subject: Re: Shipping stuff
.
>cloud become a permanent or semi-perm system feature? I hope I am getting my
>query across, sorry for sounding so disjointed. I know alot of variables are
>still being left, open such as how much waste, what sort of world, steller
type,
>etc. I am sort of fishing, having caught scent of what may be great background.
>Actually already is. Thanks!

  Vaguely related, I recall an old SF short of near-future lowish tech shipping
in the Solar System, where the critical hazard (IIRC) for the protagonist was
investigating the history of a debris field dumped overboard* from a distressed
vessel several decades before. This unknown drift or swarm of lead bricks* from
this freighter inflicted carnage on this transit, was then implicated in a past
disappearance (?), and could be charted if enough data could be gathered, which
included using informed guesswork to browbeat crucial admissions from one of
the few surviving ancients who knew the dreadful truth of their ships escape
from disaster.

 * yes, they dumped hundreds of lead bricks from their reactor shielding
  while at high relative velocity to much of the system. Anyone remember
  the various KKM discussions? :>  And, yes, this was illegal, too...

  The title (& author) escapes me, but IIRC the feature was called the
Sunflower Drift after the vessel. The authors name might have been White?

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:00:45 +0100
From: "Derrick Jones" <dojones@cableinet.co.uk>
Subject: World Builder's Teaser?

"Smart, David J (David)" wrote:
> 
> This is for all you world builders out there.
> 
> I've just read about an area on Earth where radioactivity and
> heat from the planet's core raise the temperature of stone
> to a searing 120 degrees Fahrenheit, and the atmospheric
> pressure is doubled. Poisonous methane and hydrogen seep
> from the rock. Despite all this, people exist in the area for
> hours on end every day.
> 
> Anybody care to guess what area I'm reading about?

Wigan? Sure feels like that to me!

Derrick Jones
St Helens
Lancashire UK

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 16:52:23 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Dear Folks -

Erwin wrote:
>The vehicle design rules in MT handle this method of locomotion. In fact,
one of
>my players is custom-designing a "bike" (which really shouldn't use that
name,
>since it has no wheels) for his character. For a while, he was seriously
>considering putting legs on it, but gave up because he wanted sub-orbital
>capabilities.

What, no "can leap tall buildings in a single bound"?  :-)

You have players just as weird as I do. Have you seen my version of "The
Luggage"?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:01:24 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Dear Folks -

Peez wrote:
     This reminds me of a related issue: some people have
     popularized the notion that scientists cannot explain
     how bees can fly.

The scientists (after being able to view slow-motion video) found they were
using an incorrect model to describe flight. It didn't include things such
as dynamic changes to flight surfaces (ie. where wings actively curl during
flight).

However, I agree that this is still a popular myth, even to a song "Who
would have thought that bees could fly". The songwriter (name forgotten,
sorry) has been corrected on this point, and she now asks audiences for
alternate lines. I think the best was, "Who would have thought Ollie North
would lie?"  ;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:12:59 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Dear Folks -

BZA said:
>Hanging out with Moties? Speaking of which, they are ALIEN! Has anyone
>else read "The Mote in God's Eye", and what opinions are there on
>Moties? Does anyone use them in their campaign?

The Moties are the Droyne.

All right, so the Droyne aren't THAT scary.

But I'm sure that the Moties are at least the _inspiration_ for the Droyne.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:57:47 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Aramis Web Site

At 13:52 23/06/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>I had an old Traveller gm expound to me about TL in various SCI-FI movies
>at the time:
>
>CT Imperial   TL=15
>Star Wars     TL=20-25
>Star Trek       TL=30+
>
>Anyone got any *SIMPLE* sensor rules for CT?

roll 7+ to spot something, dm +sensor skill.

to defeat a successful spotting roll by hiding:

roll 7+, dm +ship tactics skill + your computer size - their computer size


Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:19:26 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: [OT] _The Onion_ and Aliens

Thought y'all might get a kick out of this story....

http://www.theonion.com/onion3524/aliens_portrayl_media.html

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:40:58 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: Re: TLs of Star Wars and Star Trek

From: Jay.Alverson@phs.com

> I had an old Traveller gm expound to me about TL in various SCI-FI movies
> at the time:
> 
> CT Imperial   TL=15
> Star Wars     TL=20-25
> Star Trek       TL=30+

My personal views on the TLs of these two other milieu would probably 
be closer to:

Star Wars: TL 17
Star Trek: TL 18

Both utilize alternate FTL travel methods.  Both have true AI
robots, hence the TL 17 minimum, but Star Trek seems a bit higher on
the TL scale than Star Wars.  Maybe not, but that's just my opinion.

Thanks for your time and attention.  I now return you to your 
normally scheduled thread, already in progress...

In Service,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:51:20 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> 
> You have players just as weird as I do. Have you seen my version of "The
> Luggage"?

No. What's that about?

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 00:55:39 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: FTL == time travel

http://caliban.physics.utoronto.ca/neufeld/FTL.stuff/throop.txt
is probably a better explanation of how FTL violates causality,
but once again the only way to violate causality in the 
Traveller universe is jump from a system that has a velocity
of 0, to a system that has a velocity of near C (.82C is what
is specifically mentioned). I don't think this is ever
possible, because said system would pass into another hex in
less than 4 years.

I was going to make some comments about such a jump, but it
has already been discussed enough.

- -- 
I could not say I believe. I know! I have had the experience of being gripped
by something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God.
							-- Carl Jung
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:10:46 PDT
From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: TLs of Star Wars and Star Trek

In GURPS Terms I'd place SW around 10 and ST around 14....Transporter 
technology is FAR more advanced than anything tech related in the SW 
universe..
Back to your Aslan lesbian virus carrying pirates thread :)
mike






_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:16:52 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

Douglas E. Berry posted:

>At 12:19 AM 6/23/99 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Chris, I think the SEAL *gave* the reporter her answer.  I don't
>>doubt at all that when he pulls the trigger he has compartmentalised
>>his mind so that he really doesn't feel anything except recoil.  How
>>he handles it *later* might be another story, but I doubt he would
>>*want* to talk to a reporter about that.
>
>Speaking as a trained sniper, let me assure you that we do *not* sit down
>and have an impromptu jam session to discuss our feelings after taking a
>shot.  What we do is get the hell out of Dodge very carefully.  For some
>reason, people dislike us, and have the amusing habit of not taking snipers
>prisoner.

And thank you and every other combat vet, past and present, retired and
active, on this list and off it, for volunteering to do the job and
accepting the
obligations it required of you.

Ladies and gentlemen, you are some of the people who make the human
species worth being part of.

This does lead me to ask a question.

Would any combat vet on this list mind sharing 
1) their reasons for joining the military
2) reasons they see for making the military a career.

I'd appreciate it if you would also share the country/military branch you've
had experience with so I can pick up any differences.

ObTrav: I'm running a merchant/paramilitary  campaign and need to understand
the motivations for the career combat types.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:32:19 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Webpage Query (was What is a month?)

In a message dated 6/23/99 10:02:59 PM US Eastern Standard Time, 
eris@sierratel.com writes:

> If you had one I am sure someone would gladly show it on their Trav page. I
>  would. I was wondering in fact if there were any gaps to fill as far as
>  content.

For First In, yeah, there are some gaps.  As you might expect for such a
big (and rushed) project, there are plenty of minor errata -- but those will
be addressed by SJG once they come up.  There are also *lots* of places
where I chose one approach for simplicity or playability, but where other
choices might have been made.  Those might make good optional rules.
There are also lots of worldbuilding issues that I just didn't address in as
much detail as one might like.

I plan to build a First In web page with optional rules, more examples,
lessons in the pertinent science, links to good worldbuilding sites, and so
on.  How soon that happens depends entirely on how much time I have,
which at the moment isn't much.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:47:35 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: The Uplift Question

The here in Australia, it seems we have so many overseas commitments that
more of our armed forces are overseas than at home. Mind-you they do have to
have a whip around to buy ammunition.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 03:03:27 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

From:           	"Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Date sent:      	Thu, 24 Jun 1999 09:16:52 -0500

> Douglas E. Berry posted:

> This does lead me to ask a question.

> Would any combat vet on this list mind sharing 
> 1) their reasons for joining the military
> 2) reasons they see for making the military a career.

I had to think a long time before posting this and I fully expect to get
toasted for it. However here goes. Why I joined the military? I was too
young and too stupid. I saw a "glamorous" career with real prospects.
Why I planned to make it a career? It seemed like a good idea at the
time. I saw a stable career with good prospects for advancement. Why
I left? I saw too many things its better not to see. Not talking about the
gory side of death and maiming, but the nasty side when a child clings
to their mother shaking with fear at the uniform you wear and the gun you
carry. The utter and total culture of expediancy that dominates the way
the military is used. I guess I found there was no honour or glory, just a
nasty vicious job.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:02:42 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: First In - Aion homeworld errata

In a message dated 6/24/99 12:08:48 AM US Eastern Standard Time, 
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

> Do be aware that the Bode rules are one of many possible spacings that
>  fulfil a *required* condition. Simply put, no planet may have an orbit
>  whose period is related to that of another "near" orbit by an integer.
>  And simple fractions (2/3, 3/2, etc) are likely ruled out as well. 

Aha!  An interesting point, and to be honest I'd completely forgotten about
resonances.  The situation won't come up too often with planetary orbits,
but I suspect it might be a good thing to check for when building satellite
systems.  Sounds to me like another good item to put on the web page.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:07:33 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: RE: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)

On Wednesday, June 23, 1999 8:04 PM
Leonard Erickson said,

> You can get the package to the sun quicker by adding a radial component
> to the velocity, and that *will* reduce the effect of any remaining
> tangential velocity. But it takes a *lot* of extra radial velocity to
> make a difference.

Hi, Gordon Duke here,
Long time lurker, first time poster.

Couldn't you transform some of the tangential velocity by either deflecting
the container off of a stationary object or use a gravitational body such as
a moon to impart radial velocity?

Didn't NASA do a probe launch within the last year or so where they used the
moons gravitational well to impart some extra velocity on a probe?

G.D.D.
======
"No problem can withstand the assault of sustained thinking." --Voltaire

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:44:16 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: What is a month? (was Re: Contact)

How about the a three body problem. Anyone know how to work this out.
A planet orbits a star in an elliptical orbit. Say something like a K5 main
sequence. A second star also orbits the primary say a K7 main sequence, also
in an ellipse.

What effect would the radiation from the companion do to the planet?

In the old World Builders handbook it gave a method of doing this assuming
all orbits were circular, but how about ellipses?
I want a planet that remains habitable but cold when the secondary is
furthest away, but very warm when it is at its closest, without actually
becomming completely uninhabitable.
Antony Farrell

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 08:51:42 -0700
From: Jay.Alverson@phs.com
Subject: RE: TLs of Star Wars and Star Trek

If I remember correctly Star Wars could send holograms between systems
in real-time (something faster than light-speed!), which blows away the
traveller x-boat system.

Star Trekkies could know everything about a planet in a matter of seconds
from a hand-held device.  Plus their weapon systems.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jason Kemp [SMTP:Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us]
> Sent:	Thursday, June 24, 1999 7:41 AM
> To:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject:	Re: TLs of Star Wars and Star Trek
> 
> From: Jay.Alverson@phs.com
> 
> > I had an old Traveller gm expound to me about TL in various SCI-FI
> movies
> > at the time:
> > 
> > CT Imperial   TL=15
> > Star Wars     TL=20-25
> > Star Trek       TL=30+
> 
> My personal views on the TLs of these two other milieu would probably 
> be closer to:
> 
> Star Wars: TL 17
> Star Trek: TL 18
> 
> Both utilize alternate FTL travel methods.  Both have true AI
> robots, hence the TL 17 minimum, but Star Trek seems a bit higher on
> the TL scale than Star Wars.  Maybe not, but that's just my opinion.
> 
> Thanks for your time and attention.  I now return you to your 
> normally scheduled thread, already in progress...
> 
> In Service,
> Jason
> 
> ==============================
> Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
> (512)458-7111 ext. 3375
> 
> Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
> ==============================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:55:30 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: Crawfish! (was: Re: Locomotion: Bio. and Tech.)

Black ICE posted:
>
>ObTrav:  Unusual foods, that offworlders find disconcerting, disgusting,
>and/or difficult.  IIRC, "crottled greeps" fill that niche in _The
>Gripping Hand_.

And the Hiver "corndog" does very well for TNE campaigns.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:00:53 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: FW: *URGENT* GURPS Traveller 2nd Edition

Subject: *URGENT* GURPS Traveller 2nd Edition
From: bvmi@odin.cc.pdx.edu (Michael Bowman)
Date: 24 Jun 1999 15:23:17 GMT
Message-ID: 1187
Newsgroups: sjgames.gurps.traveller

We are presently working on _GURPS Traveller_, Second Edition. I would like to
see the following for this:

1. Any errata for the GURPS Traveller main book (or perhaps for the
supplements
that impact the main book). We're currently going through the unresolved
errata
submitted to date.

2. Input on areas where major reforms are needed, in other words, anything you
think may need a rule change in the second edition.

Please *do not reply* to this message. Please send these comments to
bowman@pyramid.sjgames.com or errata@sjgames.com.

Also, if someone here would be so kind as to forward this to appropriate
mailing
lists, such as the Traveller Mailing List, I would appreciate it.

Michael Bowman
SJ Games Errata Coordinator

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:32:07 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: New Computer Chip Size Limit

Once again, the silicon chip is shrinking, leading the
way to more Travelleresque devices.

The excerpt below is from an article by ABC found at:

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/tech/DailyNews/chips990623.html

- --------------

B A L T I M O R E,   June 23 - Bell Labs scientists say
they have found what they believe is the limit for making
ever-smaller computer chips using current materials. 

Five atoms is the minimum thickness possible for the silicon
dioxide film at the heart of computers - a part of the
transistors that turn on and off at lightning speed, the
scientists report in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature. 

For practical purposes, the layer will have to be about twice
that thickness. Currently, the so-called gate oxide films used
are about 25 atoms thick, said Greg Timp, one of the study's
authors.

- --------------

I'm kinda proud of this one 'cause Bell Labs is a subsidiary
of Lucent. Not that *I* had anything to do with this but it's
still cool. The article has some great details such as a
10-atom wide chip would conceivably run at _at least_
10,000 MHz. The fastest we have today is 600 MHz.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:08:29 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Xenobiology 101 (kind of OT)

Robert Prior wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
As well, limbs are quite complicated. The chances of getting a whole new,
functional limb are small. Non-functional limbs are usually a definate
disadvantage (often crippling). Check out the latest Scientific American
for a small piece on multi-limbed frogs.
>>>>>>>>>>
Just a note - Dr. Stanley Sessions did some of the most important work
on the multi-limbed frogs found in North America, he's from the 
university I work at. The multi-limbs weren't genetic mutations, they
were a result of a parasitic infestation in the tadpoles - the scarring on
the limb bud sites caused unusual growth. Similar infestations of the
adults were causing unusual regrowth after loss of limb to predators
that got a bite of frog instead of the whole frog.

Walt Smith
Hartwick College

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 10:15:10 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

Hypercleats wrote:
> 
>flipped out by their stringer siblings.)
> 
> Either that, or knocked out by my pruning trees. ;)  I always put them back,
> and contrary to what I hear from others, Mom always takes them back. Of course
> I hang out in the yard alot, so she "knows" me.

Longstanding urban/suburban/rural legend, probably started by the mame
bird ignoring baby birds who were severely injured in their fall from
the nest, or otherwise near death anyway (baby birds will die of
starvation/thirst very quickly). If the baby bird is healthy, mama will
be very happy to get it back

> No doubt! IIRC, hyenas are hermaphroditic and give birth through their...
> well, nevermind.

Not quite...female hyenas, particularly pack leaders have a high level
of testosterone, and behave like males, but there are no truly
hermaphroditic mammals, other than occasional mutants.

There is a subspecies of lizard, who reproduce asexually, but that was a
special case of a population that arose from only a few idividuals on an
isolated island. The same species on other islands reproduces sexually.
It seems that reptiles can turn on asexual reproduction if needed, it's
just rare that we have a poopulation large enough to observe yet
exclusively one sex.

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #767
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Traveller-digest       Thursday, June 24 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 768



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: The Military & the Media...
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Subject: [OT] _The Onion_ and Aliens
Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)
RE: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
Re: First In
Stutterwarp as Reactionless thruster (was Gearhead Question (Slightl OT)
Star Wars & Traveller
Re: TLs of Star Wars and Star Trek
Re: The Uplift Question
Re: Subject: [OT] _The Onion_ and Aliens
Re: The Uplift Question
Re:Hexagons
Re:Questions for a problem
Re: Catastrophe
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Re Platinum
Re: First In
RE: trav url
Re: What is a month? (was Re: Contact)
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:17:22 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media...

>Nothing like poppin' a lousy towelhead in the desert" (or substitute
>suitable baddy/country/location of the moment)?  Not the best PR I suppose?

I know sniper have good scopes, but can they _really_ see the lice of their
targets? :-)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:17:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

>> From the parents
>> standpoint, more babies is better. From the babies standpoint, fewer
>> siblings is better. Thus the evolutionary conflict. Hyenas are even more
>> interesting.
>
>No doubt! IIRC, hyenas are hermaphroditic and give birth through their...
>well, nevermind.

Sorry, that's another urban myth. (Veldt myth?)

"The sexes in spotted hyenas are so much alike that the only way you can be
certain that you do in fact have a pair is if they breed. Female hyenas
have a clitoris the same size as the male penis and equally erectile. Her
vaginal labia are fused to form a pseudoscrotum which is filled with fatty
bodies as large as male testicales. In every external respect the sexes are
identical and when two hyenas meet and go through a greeting display that
involves mutual sniffing and licking, both male and female genitals become
erect and the animals stand head to tail with one hind leg lifted in
precisely the same way...

"Spotted hyenas lead a complex social life in which females play the
dominant role. Clans of as many as seventy or eighty individuals are always
led by females, and all adult females are dominant to all adult males, who
leave the group when they reach puberty. Females assert their dominance by
being far more aggressive than the males at every stage of their lives,
producing of the most chilliung phenomena ever seen in any mammal.

"Hyenas usually have twins, which are well-developed at birth, completely
furred, eyes open, canine and incisor teeth fully erupted. This is true of
some other carnivores, but what makes the spotted hyena exceptional is that
within minutes of birth one of the cubs attacks its twin, sometimes
savaging a a brother or sister who has not even emerged from its amniotic
sac. If both offspring survive this pre-emptive strike, the battle begins
in ernest as 'the pair roll in a bitter embraces, each with the skin of the
other locked in its jaws'.[131]

"This is not the normal rough and tumble of siblings at play. This is a
fight to the death between two baby animals scarcely an hour old...What is
disturbing about the hyena neonatal cpnflict is that it seems to be the
norm. Spotted hyenas nearly always have twins and seldom get to raise more
than a single cub, because the cubs themselves seem to be genetically
programmed to attack and kill their siblings on sight...

"...The fact that spotted hyenas do so routinely suggests that this loss is
one worth taking.It must be offset by an even larger gains elsewhere. But
where, exactly?

"...Laurence Frank has found that the cub that usually wins the murderous
battle in the den is female, and that if shee is the daughter of a
top-ranked female, she will inevitably replace her mother as head of the
clan. This is clearly something the genes would like, the kind of
continuity that they thrive on and seem to have contrived by a very simple
chemical device... Spotted hyena foetuses, no matter what their sex, have
levels of testosterone higher even than adult males... The result is bizare
genetalia, sexual confusion, and adult females so large, competent and
aggressive that they run a tight and genetically stable matriarchy."

Dark Nature (Lyall Watson), pp 51-53.


ObTrav: Now imagine them as a minor race.  What kind of psychology would
they have?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:46:31 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

Jay Alverson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
If I remember correctly Star Wars could send holograms between systems
in real-time (something faster than light-speed!), which blows away the
traveller x-boat system.

Star Trekkies could know everything about a planet in a matter of seconds
from a hand-held device.  Plus their weapon systems.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
According to some of the licensed SW source material, the Holonet
was somewhat limited - only major worlds would have Holonet
transmitters, during Old Republic days. When the Emperor took
over, he wanted a monopoly on instant insterstellar communications,
so he "borrowed" the vast majority of the Holonet transmitters and
installed them on the flagships of the Imperial Fleet. The remaining
installations were under Imperial control, on sector capital worlds 
and places like that.

Yes, it blows away X-Boats. It was also expensive, tempermental,
and power-hungry - you only saw them on kilometers-long Star
Destroyers and up. Recall in Empire Strikes Back, Vader had to move
his ship out of an asteroid belt to get a clear signal - perhaps it doesn't
even work on a planet's surface.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:12:44 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

>
> > No doubt! IIRC, hyenas are hermaphroditic and give birth through their...
> > well, nevermind.
>
> Not quite...female hyenas, particularly pack leaders have a high level
> of testosterone, and behave like males, but there are no truly
> hermaphroditic mammals, other than occasional mutants.

Well I knew it wasn't TRULY hermaphroditic, but they have odd, um, eh, er,
genitals.

>
>
> There is a subspecies of lizard, who reproduce asexually, but that was a
> special case of a population that arose from only a few idividuals on an
> isolated island.

Do you remember the species or islands name?

> The same species on other islands reproduces sexually.
> It seems that reptiles can turn on asexual reproduction if needed, it's
> just rare that we have a poopulation

Huh heh heh, you said poop! Heh heh heh he. POOP! ;)

> large enough to observe yet
> exclusively one sex.

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:18:57 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

> Spotted hyenas nearly always have twins and seldom get to raise more
> than a single cub, because the cubs themselves seem to be genetically
> programmed to attack and kill their siblings on sight...
>
> "...The fact that spotted hyenas do so routinely suggests that this loss is
> one worth taking.It must be offset by an even larger gains elsewhere. But
> where, exactly?

Survival of the fittest, baby!

> ObTrav: Now imagine them as a minor race.  What kind of psychology would
> they have?

Probably similar too those Aslan lesbian pirates I keep seeing pop up.

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 18:28:23 +0000
From: igor@truserve.com
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

David J Smart asked

>Would any combat vet on this list mind sharing 
>1) their reasons for joining the military
>2) reasons they see for making the military a career.

Well, I never saw any sort of action, and I'm not career - but I'll take a stab.

I love my country (USA). I'm not a blind patriot that believes there's nothing wrong 
with America - quite the contrary. Give me a soapbox and I'll talk your ear off about 
the things I think need changing. _BUT_, I love my country, and wouldn't want to live 
anywhere else. And I _have_ lived in and traveled to other countries (my parents worked 
for the government - we travelled around a lot)...so this isn't the viewpoint of 
someone who hasn't seen the "outside world"...

My interest in joining the military (Air Force) was twofold - to earn some money for my 
eventual trip to college, and to give something back to my country. I guess I think 
like the K'Kree (ob Trav) - everyone should at one point do something for their 
country. Military service, civil service, or whatever - giving back a little. Was a 
prepared to give my life for my country? Well, I'd like to think so - I asked myself 
that when I joined, and answered yes. Of course, you never know until you face the 
situation, which I never did. 

For the record, I was a medical discharge. Long story. However, I had decided I didn't 
want to be career - I didn't hate it, I just wanted to move on.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:04:00 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> I suspect that the "recoil" answer is given because it's not *possible*
> to explain the feelings to someone who hasn't been there. And that's
> why the question is asinine. Any sort of *meaningful* answer is far to
> long and complex for a soundbite.

Why is a question asinine if it can't be answered meaningully in a
soundbite?  If a question calls for a long, complex, and meaningful
answer, it sounds like a very interesting and useful question to me.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:24:01 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Subject: [OT] _The Onion_ and Aliens

> From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
> Subject: [OT] _The Onion_ and Aliens

I love The Onion.  It has some of the best writing out there, and it's
all free.  

I hope that the Traveller movie won't draw the ire of the EME!

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:00:53 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)

Thanks for your analysis.  I'm always learning something new on the
list.  

- --Glenn

> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

> Believe it or not, in terms of energy (delta-V) requirements, the star
> is the *hardest* place in the system to reach! It's easier to reach
> system escape velocity than to hit the star!

[two messages deleted]

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:47:05 -0700
From: Jay.Alverson@phs.com
Subject: RE: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

interesting I read the old books, but didn't see anything about the holonet.
I know traveller limits telepathy to certain ranges, I'd think it could be
interstellar.  My guess is that they should look internally to span the
stars,
the "force" binding the galaxy together and all that.  movies and their
toys.

I did get a copy of Jedi-type rpg on the force, but it didn't mention
telepathy
at all, instead using astral projection.  I suppose one could 'dream' across
galaxies.

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Walter Smith [SMTP:SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU]
> Sent:	Thursday, June 24, 1999 10:47 AM
> To:	'TML'
> Subject:	re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
> 
> Jay Alverson wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> If I remember correctly Star Wars could send holograms between systems
> in real-time (something faster than light-speed!), which blows away the
> traveller x-boat system.
> 
> Star Trekkies could know everything about a planet in a matter of seconds
> from a hand-held device.  Plus their weapon systems.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> According to some of the licensed SW source material, the Holonet
> was somewhat limited - only major worlds would have Holonet
> transmitters, during Old Republic days. When the Emperor took
> over, he wanted a monopoly on instant insterstellar communications,
> so he "borrowed" the vast majority of the Holonet transmitters and
> installed them on the flagships of the Imperial Fleet. The remaining
> installations were under Imperial control, on sector capital worlds 
> and places like that.
> 
> Yes, it blows away X-Boats. It was also expensive, tempermental,
> and power-hungry - you only saw them on kilometers-long Star
> Destroyers and up. Recall in Empire Strikes Back, Vader had to move
> his ship out of an asteroid belt to get a clear signal - perhaps it
> doesn't
> even work on a planet's surface.
> 
> Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 11:59:30 -0700
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: First In

>3.) Are there special considerations for Sulfur Icy Rockball GG moons? Do
>the active volcanoes raise the average surface temperature at all?

In the Real World, tidal heating does increase the surface temperatures of
the close moons - Io, the prototypical sulfur volcano world - and even
Europa somewhat. Does First In model this?

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 07:54:55 -0500
From: Chris Olson <chris_olson@itd.sterling.com>
Subject: Stutterwarp as Reactionless thruster (was Gearhead Question (Slightl OT)

Eris Reddoch wrote:

>
> I use stutterwarp, but limit it to STL in my games, it's my
> "reactionless thruster."  FTL is still jump drive.  By limiting
> stutterwarp's pseudo-velocity (fastest in "known space" is 6000 kps)
> I don't have to worry about the discharging bit.  I also get to keep
> a more "Travellerisk" feel with the one week in jump.
>
> Eris

I've been toying with this my mind as I design a Traveller Campaign.
Stutterwarp has some interesting complications for in system travel.

One thing that occured to me in my pondering was that Stutterwarp ships,
since they do not accellerate in real-space, they are still affected by
gravity and do not thrust against it.  So, you need station-keeping
points, were ships use local gravitational forces to cancel out residual
motions...

. have you considered this effect for in-system travel?

. how about for inter-stellar relative motions?

Chris

- --
            Chris Olson 0309 X257977-A S va dr zh vi  422    _______________
                             Chris_Olson@ITD.Sterling.COM   |-._     __,---,'
Traveller                                                   \() ` --'    ,'
- ---------------------------------------------------------    |    |    ,'
                                             RPG Software     \_()|  ,'
                                        in the Far Future       \ |,'

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 13:11:40 -0700
From: Jay.Alverson@phs.com
Subject: Star Wars & Traveller

while at lunch I remembered too about the "probe droids" dispersed by the
empire thru-out the galaxy, 1000's if I'm not mistaken.  the movie/books
weren't clear about how the info was relayed back to the "inquistors",
whether via the probes directly or back to their disbursement ship, then via
holonet or some similar method.

Thanks,

Jay Alverson
Jay.Alverson@phs.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:28:56 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: TLs of Star Wars and Star Trek

Michael McKeown wrote:
> 
> In GURPS Terms I'd place SW around 10 and ST around 14....Transporter
> technology is FAR more advanced than anything tech related in the SW
> universe..

OTOH, Star Wars does have FTL-capable small craft, and planetoid-sized
FTL warships....

Luckily for Our Heroes, SW _doesn't_ appear to have fast FTL
communications.

> Back to your Aslan lesbian virus carrying pirates thread :)
> mike
> 
> _______________________________________________________________
> Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:31:54 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

Antony Farrell wrote:
> 
> The here in Australia, it seems we have so many overseas commitments that
> more of our armed forces are overseas than at home. Mind-you they do have to
> have a whip around to buy ammunition.

IIRC, Fiji actually _does_ have more ground forces overseas in
peacekeeping forces than at home.  From what I understand, the money
paid to Fiji as compensation for providing peacekeepers is a major part
of the military budget.

ObTrav:  Dorsai or Metzadan Mercenary Corps, anyone?

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 15:48:11 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: [OT] _The Onion_ and Aliens

"Glenn M. Goffin" wrote:
> 
> > From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
> > Subject: [OT] _The Onion_ and Aliens
> 
> I love The Onion.  It has some of the best writing out there, and it's
> all free.
> 
> I hope that the Traveller movie won't draw the ire of the EME!
> 
You _know_ it will, though.  Let's face it:  For every Traveller player
who, upon hearing the word "Vargr", first thinks "Archduke Brzk", there
are ten who first think "corsair."  Add the Hollywood attitude deplored
by the Extraterrestrials For Media Equity to the mix, and you can't
_help_ but annoy the EME.

Let's just hope that they don't push for repeal of the Cassiopeian
Accord in response....

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 14:22:00 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

Black ICE wrote:
> 
> IIRC, Fiji actually _does_ have more ground forces overseas in
> peacekeeping forces than at home.  From what I understand, the money
> paid to Fiji as compensation for providing peacekeepers is a major part
> of the military budget.
> 
> ObTrav:  Dorsai or Metzadan Mercenary Corps, anyone?

Only when they have more ground forces overseas, or off-planet, than
they have _people_ at home...;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 21:20:22 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re:Hexagons

>I am moving stars out of the center of their
>hexagons in order to make more believable star maps.

He, He, but then stars one hexagon apart wont necessarily be jump one apart.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:27:45 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: Re:Questions for a problem

>1) If a moon that circles a Gas Giant is tidally locked with that GG, how do
>you figure it's day/night cycle with reference to the system's primary?

Some more thoughts:

Maximum time, per orbit, in eclipse for a tide locked moon is approximately:

   (diameter of GG / circumference of moons orbit) * moon day length

usually much less.

Note that First In says large moons orbit GGs in the 3 to 15 GG diameter range.
Earths moon orbits at 30 diameters and only gets eclipsed only every couple of
dozen rotations or so. Closer moons are eclipsed much more often. The inner
three of Jupiters four large moons get eclipsed every orbit (at 3 to 7.5
diameters).

Worlds orbiting GGs have bad jump masking problems. But then there is probably a
suitable unmasked moon, or three, beyond the GG 100D limit to use as a far port.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 23:13:18 +0100
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Catastrophe

shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson) writes:
>>The book is by David Keys and is called 'Catastrophe: An investigation into
>>the origins of the modern world'. It ties in the (UK) Channel 4 two part
>>series. The book details research into the possible domino effect of a
>>major volcanic event in the AD 500s which caused enough climatic impact to

>  Apparently Japan had a couple incidents with major national effects in
>the 18th century; the documentation is largely complete from most POV's.

Hmm. The whole climatic domino effect in it is postulated to occur from a
major (>>Krakatoa scale vulcanic event in the Far East) which put out
enough ash to cause several years of drought and heavy rains in different
reason. In Africa this acts as a trigger to start the movement of rodents
bearing the bulbonic plague across Europe. Droughts in the East (China etc)
cause changes the political structure of the steppes and leads to a
barbarian invasion into Rome; there's also stuff on how the South American
climate changed and collapsed some societies. The author argues that the
vulcanic event resulted in a 'resynchronisation' of history, and the birth
of much of the modern world.

It's interesting and plausible.

Dom

- ----------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com------------
"In the End I found beginnings, not a vision, a wake up call.
Raised from the dead by a beating heart and at last I can
  see it all. And my eyes were opened to the darkness.."
                  Fish /Raingods with Zippos/
Rob Prior's Mac software @ http://www.bits.org.uk/ 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:42:17 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Dear Folks -

Erwin asked:
>> You have players just as weird as I do. Have you seen my version of
>> "The Luggage"?

>No. What's that about?

Go to http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw ==> Hyphen's Traveller Pages ==> The
Luggage, Mk III

This is my Book 8/101 Robots translation of "The Luggage", from _The Colour
of Magic_ (Discworld series) by Terry Pratchett. Sorry it's not a "pretty"
writeup at the moment.

And yes, it does have "lots of little legs", even if they are just for show
(the thing is grav-capable ;-).

Personally, I think K-9 (see The K-9 Papers) is scarier, skill-wise. For
those interested, K-9 is a Book 8/101 Robots version, with dimensions taken
from the Dr Who blueprints book PLUS stats translated from the Dr Who
Roleplaying Game. I think the only extras are things like the medikit. ;-)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:19:37 -0700
From: "Wayne" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: Re Platinum

> My mother and her sisters can't wear a lot of metals (mostly copper, silver
> and gold, iirc) because their skin turns green and black where the metal
> touches after a time.  Its that hypo-allergenic whatsis.  Either that, or
> we're part faerie folk and/or lycanthropes.  I think I have it too, but
> I don't wear any rings or necklaces and never have.
>
> Anyhoo, her latest husband (don't ask), had her wedding ring made of
> platinum.  Pricey!!  Took him a good long time to even find the place
> that would make it.
>
On the flip side, on of my sisters can only wear gold. She gets the same
reaction to ANY other metals. Her better half is all was bitching about this
because she love her trinkets

Wayne (CT/HG Tampler wanna-be)
wewart@home.com
icq22113294

Give a man fire and he is warm for the night.
Set a man on fire and he is warm all his life.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:45:42 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: First In

In a message dated 6/24/99 1:57:22 PM US Eastern Standard Time, 
bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net writes:

> In the Real World, tidal heating does increase the surface temperatures of
>  the close moons - Io, the prototypical sulfur volcano world - and even
>  Europa somewhat. Does First In model this?

Only in the sense that it allows a chance for gas-giant moons to be
Europa-like or Io-like -- you can have ice moons with subsurface liquid-
water oceans, or sulfur moons.  I didn't come across anything quantitative
on how much effect tidal heating would have on surface temperature, so
the book doesn't go into it.  To be sure, I didn't look real hard.

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:53:51 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: RE: trav url

Dear Folks -

Dan Eveland posted his URL:
>Traveller: http://www.daneveland.com/traveller/

Damned impressive. I mean, *really* impressive!! One of the most
professional-looking sites I have ever seen. Perhaps a little slow due to
graphics, but excellent nonetheless.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 20:56:34 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: What is a month? (was Re: Contact)

In a message dated 6/24/99 10:48:20 AM US Eastern Standard Time, 
Skaran@bigpond.com writes:

> How about the a three body problem. Anyone know how to work this out.
>  A planet orbits a star in an elliptical orbit. Say something like a K5 main
>  sequence. A second star also orbits the primary say a K7 main sequence, 
also
>  in an ellipse.
>  
>  What effect would the radiation from the companion do to the planet?

Urrr.  That's a tough one.  I *think* I know how to approximate this, but I
want to go back and re-derive the formula for blackbody temperature in
the case of multiple heat sources before I hold forth on the subject.

The more I think about it, the more I suspect this really should have gone
in the book to begin with.  In *most* cases, a companion star is too far
away to have significant effect on the climate of a world in the life zone.
(That is, if it's too close then the planet can't form in the life zone at 
all.)
But there are exceptional cases.  There are also those "habitable moons
of gas giant" cases. . .and First In is currently silent on the heat output
of gas giants.

Ah, well.  More material for the web page :-).

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 17:55:11 -0700
From: "Wayne" <wewart@home.com>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

> And thank you and every other combat vet, past and present, retired and
> active, on this list and off it, for volunteering to do the job and
> accepting the
> obligations it required of you.
>
> Ladies and gentlemen, you are some of the people who make the human
> species worth being part of.
>
Thank you

> This does lead me to ask a question.
>
> Would any combat vet on this list mind sharing
> 1) their reasons for joining the military
> 2) reasons they see for making the military a career.
>
> I'd appreciate it if you would also share the country/military branch
you've
> had experience with so I can pick up any differences.
>
Canadian Navy 15+ year

Well started as a summer job (Resuve Force) to pay for school.
Never thought about having to kill any one, have not head to eather (thank
god)
Like to think I do my job when push come to shove, and thats what it is, a
job.
I may leave soon (the policical-infighting/empire building of senior NCO is
starting to leave a bad taste in my mouth), But I do love being out at sea
in the middle of a cloudless night ( the stars are increadable)

 Wayne (CT/HG Tampler wanna-be)
wewart@home.com
icq22113294

Give a man fire and he is warm for the night.
Set a man on fire and he is warm all his life.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #768
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, June 25 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 769



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: "Personalities In Traveller"
Re: TML, Face-to-face
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Stutterwarp as Reactionless thruster (was Gearhead Question (Slightl OT)
re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
Re:Hexagons
Re: Hexagons
Marlheim (1230 Reavers' Deep)
Re: Hexagons
re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
3D Universe was Re: Hexagons
OT-ish: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek SPOILERS
Convention
re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: The Military & the Media...
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 21:14:15 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: "Personalities In Traveller"

Smart, David J wrote:

>This does lead me to ask a question.
>
>Would any combat vet on this list mind sharing
>1) their reasons for joining the military
>2) reasons they see for making the military a career.
>
>I'd appreciate it if you would also share the country/military branch
>you've
>had experience with so I can pick up any differences.

1)

US Navy
a) job training and educational benifits (local companies offered little
benifits)
    i) job training with NO prior experience
    ii) full medical, dental, and vision insurance at no cost
    iii) GI Bill
b) job security (local companies would fire people without cause or
recourse)
c) pay (local wages were not any better than military wages)
d) patriatism and peer pressure (several family members were in the
service{all branches except marines})
e) travel

2) I did not


this background would work for low social, low tech, non-industrial,
and/or non-agricultural backgrounds

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 00:02:42 -0400
From: Juliean Galak <jg42@cornell.edu>
Subject: Re: TML, Face-to-face

At 10:15 PM 6/17/99 +0000, you wrote:
>I don't do a lot of travelling, for a number of reasons, but if
>anyone is going to be in NYC or the northern suburbs thereof,
>feel free to drop me a note, and we can try to set something up.
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin
>jzeitlin@cyburban.com

I'm currently in Nassau County, and will be here for the rest of the
summer.  Any TMLers in the area?  Anyone interested in/looking for players
for a Traveller game (Any Milieu although CT or GT preferred....)?

          -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)

- -- 
jg42@cornell.edu        "I do not agree with a word you say, but I will    
                         defend to the death your right to say it."        
                                             -- Francois Marie Voltaire    
#include <disclaimer.h> "Imagination is more important than knowledge"     
                         			     -- Albert Einstein            
for PGP public-key and                                                       
more quotes, finger: jg42@gerfalcon.tzo.com
WWW Page: http://www.cadif.cornell.edu/~falcon/                

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1999 22:48:51 -0400
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

Was written:

>>>[Thousands of years of continued occupancy implies some attempt at
>>>environmental management].

Good point, many of the problems of today are the result of short sighted
thinking, to the next election, to the end of the next budget cycle etc.
If people or at least the powers that be had the sure knowledge that longer
term planning was in their vested interest i.e. 30, 50 or even 100 years
because they could expect to live that long or longer perhaps it would
foster such an ethos.  I doubt it though.   You will always have greed,
ignorance and dishonesty.

Picture this, a waste stream needs to be disposed yet the price of recycling
or proper disposal results in a red ink.  Someone comes a long and says for
a very low price I'll take the problem off your hands no fuss no muss.
Perhaps that someone looks legitimate and charges what appears to be what is
the legitimate market price yet they make an even better profit by improper
disposal.  I've seen both circumstances.

Consider the following scenario,  I had Fed tell me just the other day of
this slick dodge.  Haz waste loads put in box cars and shipped to a distance
disposal/recycling site.   The load got to its destination and the listed
receiver refused the load because they hadn't contract to receive it and
didn't recognize the generator.   Investigations show the manifests to be
bogus.  The hauler was stuck holding the bag at approximately $1,000 a 55
gallon drum.  With a little thought it's an easy scenario to set up for some
unwary PCs in a merchant campaign.

Take another case, a company is going bankrupt and they have numerous
facilities that are being shut down.  Liquid waste at one facility is stock
piled, bulked in a tank and shipped of planet to a higher tech recycler.
Incompatible wastes are mixed in the process bulking the waste.  In route
chemical reactions produce both heat and gas.   Pressures build slowing in
space as the cargo hold is unheated.  Maybe it blows while the PC's are in
jump, maybe while they are in the next port.  Again this is an adaptation of
a modern example.   A load from the Southern  U.S. from a company going
under was shipped north for disposal.  It got about 7 hours north by tanker
truck when the tanker trailer took off like a rocket sled.  The trailer sans
the tractor went about a quarter of a mile before it stopped.

How about a different tack, perhaps the waste is generated as the result of
a criminal enterprise, the fabrication of some elicit drug as in a modern
meth lab.   As in the first example the criminals ship it off planet.  The
load gets where it supposed to go and there is no one to receive it.  The
PCs not wanting to be stuck with the cost of disposal contact the
authorities.   The "powers that be" get very interested.   The PC's get
"drafted" into helping out the investigation.

The above are just minor variations on a theme, if you want to work
environmental justice issues into a Traveller setting it would not be hard
to do at all.  All you would need to do is create the correct social
stratification and add a bit of greed, poor planning and apply the "law of
unintended consequences".

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 24 Jun 99 22:40:04 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Stutterwarp as Reactionless thruster (was Gearhead Question (Slightl OT)

On 06/24/99 at 07:54 AM,  Chris Olson <chris_olson@itd.sterling.com> said:

>Eris Reddoch wrote:

>>
>> I use stutterwarp, but limit it to STL in my games, it's my
>> "reactionless thruster."  FTL is still jump drive.  By limiting
>> stutterwarp's pseudo-velocity (fastest in "known space" is 6000 kps)
>> I don't have to worry about the discharging bit.  I also get to keep
>> a more "Travellerisk" feel with the one week in jump.

>One thing that occured to me in my pondering was that Stutterwarp
>ships, since they do not accellerate in real-space, they are still
>affected by gravity and do not thrust against it.  So, you need
>station-keeping points, were ships use local gravitational forces to
>cancel out residual motions...

>... have you considered this effect for in-system travel?

>... how about for inter-stellar relative motions?

Yes, I have.  The actual adjustment of velocity and vector has to be
done with reaction drives and the use of gravity wells.  The ship's
astrogator has to develop a launch plan for the route out to and in
from the jump point where the ship can slowly change it's vector to
match its eventual destination.  IMTU, Stutter doesn't work in an
atmosphere (I don't have gravity affect them like in 2300AD), so
lifting and landing has to be done with a secondary drive as well.

This means that ships end up with 5 seperate drives. ;-> 

  1.  Jump for interstellar travel (1 to 6 pc/wk)
  
  2.  Stutter for intersystem travel (0.5 to 6+ kkm/sec)
  
  3.  Small HEPlaR, Fusion or chemical rockets (depending on TL) to
      adjust vector  (5 to 20 dv)
      
  4.  Anti-Grav or reaction rockets (depending on TL) to lift and
      land.  Anti-Grav works only very near a surface.  It
      complicates things a little, but *want* grav belts and
      air-rafts, darn it!  ;-)
  
  5.  Cold gas thrusters to alter the ship's attitude for things
      like docking in deep space.

You can combine 3 and 4 if you use reaction drives to lift and land.
The TNE way to handle this would be to have CG (instead of AG) to
negates most of the gravitational effect, but still requires a
reaction drive to provide the thrust.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 03:33:19 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

WARNING!!!!  Slight Phantom Menace SPOILERS ahead (near the end of the 
message)...

Walt Smith writes:

Jay Alverson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
If I remember correctly Star Wars could send holograms between systems
in real-time (something faster than light-speed!), which blows away the
traveller x-boat system.

Star Trekkies could know everything about a planet in a matter of seconds
from a hand-held device.  Plus their weapon systems.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
According to some of the licensed SW source material, the Holonet
was somewhat limited - only major worlds would have Holonet
transmitters, during Old Republic days. When the Emperor took
over, he wanted a monopoly on instant insterstellar communications,
so he "borrowed" the vast majority of the Holonet transmitters and
installed them on the flagships of the Imperial Fleet. The remaining
installations were under Imperial control, on sector capital worlds 
and places like that.

Yes, it blows away X-Boats. It was also expensive, tempermental,
and power-hungry - you only saw them on kilometers-long Star
Destroyers and up. Recall in Empire Strikes Back, Vader had to move
his ship out of an asteroid belt to get a clear signal - perhaps it doesn't
even work on a planet's surface.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
 Ah. Haven't seen Phantom Menace, have we?

 <<Spoilers to follow>>>




 Naboo has at least two: one in the Palace and another on the Queen's
(rather small) Yacht.  The Trade Federation also makes shipbourne use of them.

 As for not having transporters, I would ask how Anakin's blood sample gets 
back to the Yacht...

 No, Star Wars is probably about equal to or better than Star Trek Next Gen, 
but has been there a VERY long time. The general lack of large-scale 
antimatter production/use (as far as we can tell) means that the Star Wars 
universe doesn't use energy-hungry toys like transporters. Things like 
gravitics, high-octane magnetically-steered jet engines, FTL drives, and AI 
robots are all CASUAL tech in the Star Wars universe.  Consider the things 
that Han Solo and Anakin both do without a second thought. Consider that 
Queen Amidala's yacht has a complete hyperdrive replacement done in (roughly) 
two hours, and that they found the replacement drive IN A JUNKYARD.  C-3PO 
and R2 are both more sentient than the computer aboard the Enterprise-E 
(though not necessarily better educated), and are closer to human than Data 
is.

 Star Wars is only perceived to be lower tech than Star Trek because, in 
general, the Star Wars universe tech is declining while the Star Trek 
universe tech is still advancing.

GC

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:53:58 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re:Hexagons

At 21:20 24/06/1999 +0100, John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net> wrote:
>>I am moving stars out of the center of their
>>hexagons in order to make more believable star maps.
>
>He, He, but then stars one hexagon apart wont necessarily be jump one apart.

Indeed. Once you stop the "one star per hex at its middle" design, why not
just record the coordinates, throwaway the hexes and do all sums with a
calculator (or tables or a ruler or "in your head")

Phil Kitching

- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 02:26:10 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Hexagons

Phil Kitching wrote:

> At 21:20 24/06/1999 +0100, John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net> wrote:
> >>I am moving stars out of the center of their
> >>hexagons in order to make more believable star maps.

Observation: While dinking around with hex paper and polyhedrons, I noticed that
apparently twenty tetrahedrons make an icosahedron, and as far as I can tell
this can be continued as a pattern out from each exterior point making twelve
more icosahedrons intersecting the first, and so on. If you consider each of
those points to be a "space", you can map them on multiple layers of hex paper.
Each sheet must alternate so that two held up to the light show a pattern like
that Escheresque cube inversion we all doodle while on the phone(well, I do),
and three held to the light appear as isometric paper. You could add depth to
your galaxy too, but astrogation will involve more page turning. Might work
better with transparencies.

>
> >
> >He, He, but then stars one hexagon apart wont necessarily be jump one apart.

Speaking of which, were you going to use this difference as a modification to
time spent in jumpspace?

>
>
> Indeed. Once you stop the "one star per hex at its middle" design, why not
> just record the coordinates, throwaway the hexes and do all sums with a
> calculator (or tables or a ruler or "in your head")

I would, but I suck at math, and have no clue how to calculate all that. Is
there any programs out there to do this? Mac preferably, although I do have
Virtual PC.

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 03:13:14 -0700
From: "Brian G. Vaughan" <bgv@slip.net>
Subject: Marlheim (1230 Reavers' Deep)

I am thinking of creating a campaign set in the Reavers' Deep sector,
and I was wondering if anyone could point me towards some canonical
background information.

Also, I noticed that Marlheim, and several worlds with an allegiance
code of "Ma" in the sector data I have, are red zones. "Ma" is, I
assume, an abbreviation for "Marlheim Something-or-Other". Why is this
statelet a red zone?
- --
Brian G. Vaughan (bgv@slip.net)
    The historic ascent of humanity, taken as a whole, may be summarized
as a succession of victories of consciousness over blind forces-in
nature, in society, in man himself. (Leon Trotsky, 1933)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:46:44 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Hexagons

At 02:26 25/06/1999 -0700, Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com> wrote:
<snip>
>Phil Kitching wrote:
>> Indeed. Once you stop the "one star per hex at its middle" design, why not
>> just record the coordinates, throwaway the hexes and do all sums with a
>> calculator (or tables or a ruler or "in your head")
>
>I would, but I suck at math, and have no clue how to calculate all that. Is
>there any programs out there to do this? Mac preferably, although I do have
>Virtual PC.

In 2D, the easiest solution for roleplay use (IMO) is to printout
your map at 1cm = 1 parsec and then measure distances using a ruler.
(Or 1/2" = 1 parsec depending on locally available rulers. :-)

The formula is quite simple.

If FIRST_STAR has coordinates (a,b,c) and SECOND_STAR has coordinates (x,y,z)
the distance between them is:

	square root((a-x)^2 + (b-y)^2 + (c-z)^2)

(for 2D, just assume c & z are 0.)

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 05:05:21 PDT
From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

<<snip>>

No, Star Wars is probably about equal to or better than Star Trek Next Gen, 
but has been there a VERY long time.
According to the Dark Horse comics SW tech has been there for at least 
several thousand years...
I think there is a certain "fantasy" element to the SW universe so that's 
why the tech doesn't flow smoothly through the centuries...
One thing we've missed too is the medical tech in ST....They can replace a 
whole spine with a geneticly engineered one...where as in SW Luke must be 
given a cybernetic hand...and the rumor is that Vader was thrown in a 
volcano and that's why he has to wear the mask and suit..in ST I'm sure that 
he'd be "healed" in a few months....The weapons in ST IMHO are far superior 
so...B
Boy this sounds like a Enterprise vs the Death Star debate from Usenet...I'm 
rambling :)
Mike




_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:25:16 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: 3D Universe was Re: Hexagons

>I would, but I suck at math, and have no clue how to calculate all that. Is
>there any programs out there to do this? Mac preferably, although I do have
>Virtual PC.

Jo Grant has a nifty little PC program called CHview at
ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/chview/

It doesn't use hexes at all, but you can represent systems in 3D and it
automatically calculates distance in light years (I think).

It's not that big a program and probably would work under a virtual PC
(depending on the way it handles the display, I would guess).

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:32:02 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: OT-ish: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek SPOILERS

Warning: minor Phantom Menace spoilers ahead.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
0


Gypsy Comet wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
 Ah. Haven't seen Phantom Menace, have we?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Saw it - amazing how the technology can decline in a generation or
so, yes?

Gypsy again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
 Naboo has at least two: one in the Palace and another on the Queen's
(rather small) Yacht.  The Trade Federation also makes shipbourne use of them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
That's two in the posession of planetary government - at the seat of
government, and in the soveriegn's personal interstellar transport
(and probable mobile embassy). That's not the same as every adventurer
having wrist-unit access to an interstellar datanet.

Note that the two Jedi agents hadn't reported back to the council after
things started going wrong. They had no access to interstellar 
communications until they were able to get to the two commo sets
you mentioned - this tells me that interstellar commo is pretty rare.

The Trade Fed had one in the flagship of a planetary conquest force,
which is the same kind of place the Empire later used them.

Gypsy again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Consider that Queen Amidala's yacht has a complete hyperdrive replacement done in (roughly) two hours, and that they found the 
replacement drive IN A JUNKYARD.  
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
More evidence of rapidly declining tech. The SW universe saw a golden
age of wonders, and is now living amongst the leftovers of that age. 

Gypsy again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
C-3PO and R2 are both more sentient than the computer aboard the 
Enterprise-E (though not necessarily better educated), and are closer to 
human than Data is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And note that while Data was constructed by an acclaimed genius in
the field of Cybertechnology, C3PO was apparently a hobby project
built by a street urchin and R2D2 was a commonplace repair robot.

Gypsy again:
>>>>>>>>>>>
 Star Wars is only perceived to be lower tech than Star Trek because, in 
general, the Star Wars universe tech is declining while the Star Trek 
universe tech is still advancing.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Very good point. This backdrop of  old technology adds an interesting flavor 
to the SW universe. The SW films are a tale of transition between the 
decline of the old and the birth of the new, and the "feel" of the technology
is part of that.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:20:30 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Convention

For those who are within Jump-1 of Atlanta GA:

I'll be at the Dragon-Con convention July 1-4, and I'll bring a booth and a
photocopy of the galleys of Alien Races 2.




Loren Wiseman
     Art Director  / Traveller Line Editor
     Traveller Guru-in-Residence
     SJ Games
     LKW@IO.COM
     (512) 447-7866 VOX
     (512) 447-1144 FAX

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:48:24 -0400
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: re: Xenobiology 101

I dost quoth the culprits:

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Erwin Fritz wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I like it! Now imagine that this creature uses this technique not only
for
self-defense, but also for attacking larger animals by leaping on them.

I can just see my PC group with their "what's he going to do, nibble my
bum?" attitude. Heh
heh.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
.followed by another PC saying, "Hey, where'd you get that wiggly
hat?"
while the original PC does a very funny dance...

Walt Smith

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Houston, we have achieved SPEW!!!!
Oh, God...
I guess I have a high spew threshold, 'cause this is the first one to
get me.  Please stop, my sides hurt!  One new keyboard, coming up.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 09:02:49 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Michael Kent wrote:
> 
> Erwin Fritz wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> I like it! Now imagine that this creature uses this technique not only
> for
> self-defense, but also for attacking larger animals by leaping on them.
> 
> I can just see my PC group with their "what's he going to do, nibble my
> bum?" attitude. Heh
> heh.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> ...followed by another PC saying, "Hey, where'd you get that wiggly
> hat?"
> while the original PC does a very funny dance...
> 
> Walt Smith
> 
> %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
> 
> Houston, we have achieved SPEW!!!!
> Oh, God...
> I guess I have a high spew threshold, 'cause this is the first one to
> get me.  Please stop, my sides hurt!  One new keyboard, coming up.

Thank you, thank you. I'm glad I helped make someone else spew. As for me, I had
a delayed reaction to that one. Because of a busy work day, that one didn't
really sink in until later that evening. I started laughing uncontrollably that
evening, and couldn't tell my wife why because she's a player in my game (and
I'll probably use this beast).
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:57:25 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

John R. Snead writes:
<snipped>
"Stephen J. Gould has numerous excellent books on related 
topics, the one on Burgess shale life (call IIRC _Wonderful 
Life_) is especially relevant.  His point is primarily that 
life looks as it does today largely through a combination of 
both chance and adaptation.  If teh chance resulst were a 
bit different, life today might look very odd indeed."

	Dr. Gould is an entertaining and informed writer, and
	his points are well made. I would argue, however, that
	while life would look quite different if we "ran" our
	evolutionary history again, there are some traits that
	have evolved independantly more than once. For example,
	fish and whales have forms more similar than one might 
	expect from their common ancestry (even though the 
	octopus is quite different). Squid and vertebrate 
	eyes are not identical, but they are very similar. Thus,
	I expect that some forms are more likely to evolve than
	others (under certain conditions), but there may still
	be considerable variation in approaches to survival and
	reproduction.

<good stuff snipped>

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 07:21:45
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media...

At 01:17 PM 6/24/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>Nothing like poppin' a lousy towelhead in the desert" (or substitute
>>suitable baddy/country/location of the moment)?  Not the best PR I suppose?
>
>I know sniper have good scopes, but can they _really_ see the lice of their
>targets? :-)

At Ft. Benning, my spotter and I were working a patrol of IOBC (Infantry
Officer Basic Course) students.  These are guys who have been commissioned,
but still have to learn how to be infantry types.

We were trying to figure out who was in charge (does the term Chinese Fire
Drill mean anything to y'all), when Gordon told me to look in a certain
direction.  "Tell me that I'm not seeing this."  Since I had much better
magnification on the scope than he had on the binocs, I obliged.

And there he was.  About 40m away from the rest of the patrol, and behind
some trees, one of the LTs had decided to stop and..  ummmm... enjoy the
view.  With his pants around his ankles.  I kid you not.

This was too good to pass up.  I picked the target closest to our friend,
and shot him (MILES laser tag system) this of course set off an immediate
action drill.  I then started peppering the wanker with near misses, just
enough to make his buzzer make bleeping noises that said that a bullet had
passed close enough to hear.

Sure enough, the rest of the patrol ran towards the guy, and found him
cowering in the dirt, BDUs still wrapped up in his boots.  The laughter was
clear even at 200m.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:09:58 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Hypercleats writes:
"Hanging out with Moties? Speaking of which, they are ALIEN! 
Has anyone else read "The Mote in God's Eye", and what 
opinions are there on Moties? Does anyone use them in their 
campaign?"

	My only objection to the Moties is that they are just 
	too capable. In Traveller I shy away from aliens that
	are vastly better at everything than humans. Yes, I may
	be humanocentric... sue me! In Star Trek I feel free to
	use aliens that ignore the limitations that physical
	laws tend to impose, but not in Traveller.

"And to get off the Xeno-Bio topic, what about the way Jump 
Drives work in that book? I have seen that unlike Traveller 
campaigns I have played in, many folks out their insert 
their own Warp field/Stutterwarp/Jump drive rules or borrow 
from other games. I like the added kink of needing to find 
the right point to "jump" from(Anderson Point was it? Alderson?)"

	Alderson, IIRC. Or was that the name of the force field?
	I liked the jump point concept, but the Traveller jump 
	rules allow more flexibility. IMTU, the Black Globes work 
	much like the fields in the Motie books.

"I myself lean towards quadraped and biped life being more common 
than others, but I have yet to "run" a campaign. I usually just 
help my Arbiter-of-the-moment with building up his/her setting. I 
like that aspect even more than playing, actually! Soon I will 
put up a page with some of my more interesting Traveller ideas."

	I enjoy the design stuff as well, which is good because
	I don't get to run too often, and very rarely get to 
	play :(

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:21:47 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael McKeown <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Friday, June 25, 1999 8:06 AM
Subject: re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek



>One thing we've missed too is the medical tech in ST....They can replace a
>whole spine with a geneticly engineered one...where as in SW Luke must be
>given a cybernetic hand...and the rumor is that Vader was thrown in a
>volcano and that's why he has to wear the mask and suit..in ST I'm sure
that
>he'd be "healed" in a few months....The weapons in ST IMHO are far superior
>so...

It's not that difficult to believe that one mindset might differ from
another in the arena of medicine. In addition, there might be some stigma
attached to geneering and wetware in the Star Wars universe and we don't
have all the facts. After all, the Clone Wars are a part of the history of
that universe. Perhaps wetware smacks of the technology that the Empire used
to climb to power. I've always imagined that the Storm Troopers were clones,
and that the Clone Wars got their name from this... the first time clones
were used on a large scale in battle.

I've never been fond of the idea that Annakin Skywalker had fallen into a
volcano and that's why he needs an extensive cybernetic life support system.
I always thought that it was more traditional than that. Simply put: a guy
in black armor is inherently more evil by at least an order of magnitude.
However, I've also always figured that the dark side is a corrupting
influence, and Vader's condition is a result of this. Maybe even with a
series of genetic repairs the dark side continues to corrupt and warp his
body.

Not trying to handwave things away here or anything, there just might be
other factors that we're not privvy to. The mindset of the Empire might be
one that certain technologies are corrupting influences.

For a more in-depth look at a concept like this, I can't recommend Bruce
Sterling's Schismatrix enough. I just finished it last night and my head's
still swimming thinking of all of the possibilities. For the uninitiated:
Sterling's Shaper / Mechanist universe details a complex future history in
which mankind ventures into the solar system and is quickly factionalized by
two divergent technologies. The Mechanist faction favors electro-mechanical
life support and life extension technologies while the Shaper faction favors
wetware and genetic engineering.

My oversimplified synopsis of the Shaper / Mechanist universe does not
nearly do it justice, as there is so much more depth to it. I highly advise
it. I also read Heinlein's The Moon is a Harsh Mistress this week, and the
two books are merging in my mind and will likely influence my own Traveller
campaigns heavily.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #769
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Friday, June 25 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 770



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #769
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Marlheim (1230 Reavers' Deep) 
Re: The Military & the Media...
RE: What is a month?
RE: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
Re: 3D Universe was Re: Hexagons
Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
Re: 3D Universe was Re: Hexagons
Re Platinum
Re:Hexagons
3dmapping
Fun With Bryce
Re:Hexagons
Re: First In - Aion homeworld errata
Re: Xenobiology 101 (Spoilers for MiGE)
Heretic system presence (was Hexagons)
Re: FTL == time travel

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:42:02 -0500
From: Steve Lieb <steve@necadon.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #769

> > Indeed. Once you stop the "one star per hex at its middle" design, why
> not
> > just record the coordinates, throwaway the hexes and do all sums with a
> > calculator (or tables or a ruler or "in your head")
> 
> I would, but I suck at math, and have no clue how to calculate all that.
> Is
> there any programs out there to do this? Mac preferably, although I do
> have
> Virtual PC.
> 
	[Steve replied]  try this link:
	http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/starmap.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:49:52 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Leonard Erickson writes:
"Well, unless evolution follows a *really* different path, 
life is still going to start in the water and move onto land 
later."

	No argument there. It is hard (though perhaps not
	impossible) to imagine life evolving without a solvent
	such as water.

"We've seen three cases of this on Earth (four if you count 
plants).

1. Arthopods moved onto the land from seaside areas. (Crabs, etc). 
2. Insects either moved onto the land or evovled from arthropods.
3. lungfish crawled between shallow lakes/puddles.

The first two are limited by exoskeletons. The third isn't."

	"Plants" may have colonized terrestrial environments more 
	than once, though the early colonizers did not seem to
	fossilize well. Insects are arthropods, but I'm not sure
	what you mean by "limited by exoskeletons." Exo- and
	Endo- skeletons have advantages and disadvantages.

"Gas giants are effectively a *big* ocean, with no land. And no 
"bottom" either, at least as far as dwellers in the regions 
humans might contact are concerned. This is going to limit 
options a *lot*. Without "shallow water", a *lot* of forms 
aren't going to evolve. Squid/nautilus type critters are the 
only likely ones to have mainiplulatory appendages. Alas, I 
suspect that they evolved from a bottom dwelling form such as an 
octopus.

For that matter, what is there to manipulate?"

	Materials trapped in huge floating mats of vegetation,
	tangled webs of vines with helium bladders. Haven't you
	ever had to clean out your skimming funnel?  ;)

"> But how about a catfish like critter which evolves 
prehensile whiskers?

Ok, it's a possibility. But so is an Elephant. :-)"

	And we do have elephants. :)

"> Is there any reason endoskeletons exclude exoskelotons? The 
terrapins
> come to mind, as do armadillos.

That's *armor*, not skeletal (ie support) materials.

And the trick required would be for a 6 or more limbed form 
to move from *exo*-skeletal to endo-skeletal. That's *really* 
unlikely."

	Such an evolutionary change is unlikely, which is why
	the prevalence of endoskeletons in large Terran animals
	may be absent on some worlds.

"You will *not* find an insect that lives under Earth-like 
conditions that has a point more than an inch from the 
surface of its body. That's the max distance that air can 
diffuse thru the spiracles that insects use for respiration."

	Once again, the question should not be "what do we have
	on Terra?" For your information, there is active movement
	of air in and out of insect trachea (the spiracles are
	just the openings of the trachea). I have no doubt that
	the size of animals with respiratory systems like insects
	is limited, but I'm not sure that even the largest insects
	that have walked our planet represent that limit. In any 
	event, there is no reason that an animal with an 
	exoskeleton has to have an insect's respiratory system.
	In fact, there is no reason that I have seen that an
	animal with more than 4 legs has to have an exoskeleton.

Spiders get bigger because they have a rudimentary form of lung.

	Are the biggest spiders bigger than the biggest insects?

<snipped>

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:56:50 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Bruce Johnson writes:
<snipped>
"There is a subspecies of lizard, who reproduce asexually, 
but that was a special case of a population that arose from 
only a few idividuals on an isolated island. The same 
species on other islands reproduces sexually. It seems that 
reptiles can turn on asexual reproduction if needed, it's
just rare that we have a poopulation large enough to observe 
yet exclusively one sex."

	I don't think that this is a general reptilian trait.
	If you put a bunch of virgin female iguanas on an island,
	your population is not going to last long. There are some
	species that are made up entirely by females, they "mate"
	with males of similar species but do not take any sperm,
	possibly a behavioural leftover from their ancestral
	sexual condition. Think about the psych of a sentient
	species based on that...

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 12:52:44 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Marlheim (1230 Reavers' Deep) 

> I am thinking of creating a campaign set in the Reavers' Deep sector,
> and I was wondering if anyone could point me towards some canonical
> background information.

I'm going to assume you've not been to my site yet.  It's at:

http://home.earthlink.net/~jamstar/traveller

Reavers' Deep is one of my all-time favorite areas.  <grin>

> Also, I noticed that Marlheim, and several worlds with an allegiance
> code of "Ma" in the sector data I have, are red zones. "Ma" is, I
> assume, an abbreviation for "Marlheim Something-or-Other". Why is this
> statelet a red zone?

Simple.  The Marlheimers are intent on conquering anything they can get their hands on.  Ma is for 'Grand Duchy of Marlheim'.  Not exactly the nicest place in space to hang out in.  The local military is *VERY* triggerhappy and territorial.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:03:14 -0700
From: "Glenn M. Goffin" <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media...

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

> At Ft. Benning, my spotter and I were working a patrol of IOBC (Infantry

[great story deleted]

> Sure enough, the rest of the patrol ran towards the guy, and found him
> cowering in the dirt, BDUs still wrapped up in his boots.  The laughter was
> clear even at 200m.

I wonder what that poor guy's nickname will turn out to be?  Well, he
learned a valuable lesson.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:28:05 +0100
From: John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net>
Subject: RE: What is a month?

>How about the a three body problem. Anyone know how to work this out.
>A planet orbits a star in an elliptical orbit. Say something like a K5 main
>sequence. A second star also orbits the primary say a K7 main sequence, also
>in an ellipse.
>What effect would the radiation from the companion do to the planet?

The forbidden orbital zones will probably prevent there being a planet in the
hab zone of the primary in any binary close enough for the second star to make a
difference to the planet temp. 

Maybe it would work around the secondary though, but only if the stars were of
very different sizes, say F0/M0.

>I want a planet that remains habitable but cold when the secondary is
>furthest away, but very warm when it is at its closest, without actually
>becomming completely uninhabitable.

How about a binary system where the small secondary star has a planet in its
life-zone. The secondarys orbit ellipse crosses the life zone of the primary.

Or the secondary has a planet outside its very small life zone but its orbital
extremes fall within the life zone of the primary. Needs to be a non-eccentric
orbit of the secondary for this to work. What seasons that planet would have...
(Ploor?).

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:29:56 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Xenobiology 101

Leonard Erickson writes:
"My point is that the fish->amphibian->reptile path pretty 
much precludes hexapods."

	It did on Terra. This time.

"But they can't have evolved from free-swimming fishes. You've 
described how we get such things as land-crabs and spiders. But 
exo-skeletons *do* impose severe size limits. Especially if you 
need to molt the way crabs do. You wind up limited by the 
maximum size that can survive out of water *without* the support 
of the exoskeleton.

	My example did not specify an exoskeleton. Even with an
	exoskeleton, the size limits on Terra have not necessarily
	been explored (let alone on another world). I have not 
	seen any argument as to why molting could not be
	accomplished in some other way, for example molting one
	plate at a time, or splitting the shell but staying in it
	initially, or not molting critical breathing structures...
	For that matter, perhaps the exoskeleton can just split 
	along one side and not molt off.

"If you check, you'll find that *none* of the more than 4 limbed
critters have internal skeletons. The ones with external skeletons 
are limited as above. The ones with no skeletons are even *more* 
limited."

	Only one group of organisms evolved with an endoskeleton
	(ignoring certain hard parts such as the "shell" of squids),
	therefore it is not surprising that all the animals with
	an endoskeleton share some features. This relationship
	is not necessarily functional and does not show that, even
	on Terra, the two must go together.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:30:18 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Ian Ferguson wrote:
> 
> Bruce Johnson writes:
> <snipped>
> "There is a subspecies of lizard, who reproduce asexually,
> but that was a special case of a population that arose from
> only a few idividuals on an isolated island. The same
> species on other islands reproduces sexually. It seems that
> reptiles can turn on asexual reproduction if needed, it's
> just rare that we have a poopulation large enough to observe
> yet exclusively one sex."
> 
>         I don't think that this is a general reptilian trait.
>         If you put a bunch of virgin female iguanas on an island,
>         your population is not going to last long. There are some
>         species that are made up entirely by females, they "mate"
>         with males of similar species but do not take any sperm,
>         possibly a behavioural leftover from their ancestral
>         sexual condition. Think about the psych of a sentient
>         species based on that...


Probably not generalized, but just last night I saw a show on TLC
regarding a herpetologist who was quite surprised when his grown,
handraised female rattlesnake gave birth to a male offspring. Uhh, did I
mention that the snake in question had lived its entire life in a glass
aquarium in his lab out of contact with other snakes? They're waiting
for the male to reach sexual maturity to see if it is fertile. If so,
this has BIG implications for rattlesnake population studies...

I would be surprised if it were a generalized trait of all reptiles, but
I'll be equally surprised if parthenogenesis _isn't_ more widespread in
reptile populations that we currently think...they're not exactly the
most well-studied critters on the planet...

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:33:49 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

<snip>


> I think there is a certain "fantasy" element to the SW universe so that's
> why the tech doesn't flow smoothly through the centuries...

This, and a more diverse technology style. Aliens in SW tend to be more
"unique" than in ST.

>
> One thing we've missed too is the medical tech in ST....They can replace a
> whole spine with a geneticly engineered one...where as in SW Luke must be
> given a cybernetic hand...

Yes, seemingly lower tech, yet it could "feel", as can droids apparently, if
you recall the robo-torture scene.

> and the rumor is that Vader was thrown in a
> volcano and that's why he has to wear the mask and suit..in ST I'm sure that
> he'd be "healed" in a few months....The weapons in ST IMHO are far superior
> so...

But ST has no lightsabres!

>
> Boy this sounds like a Enterprise vs the Death Star debate from Usenet...I'm
> rambling :)

The Death Star could vaporize the Enterprise! ;)

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:40:09 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: 3D Universe was Re: Hexagons

<snip>

>
> Jo Grant has a nifty little PC program called CHview at
> ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/chview/
>
> It doesn't use hexes at all, but you can represent systems in 3D and it
> automatically calculates distance in light years (I think).

Sounds great, I'm off to download, thanks for the tip.

>
> It's not that big a program and probably would work under a virtual PC
> (depending on the way it handles the display, I would guess).
>

So far we have not had much luck with MS-DOS based Traveller programs, I'll let
you know how this works out. There seem to be quite a few Mac-Users on this
list from what my room-mate tells me.

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 13:45:28 -0400
From: Imaginactra <russcm@zoomnet.net>
Subject: Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

At 10:33 AM 6/25/99 -0700, you wrote:
>> and the rumor is that Vader was thrown in a
>> volcano and that's why he has to wear the mask and suit..in ST I'm sure
that
>> he'd be "healed" in a few months....The weapons in ST IMHO are far superior
>> so...
>
>But ST has no lightsabres!

Hokey religeons and misticism are no substitute for a good phasor at your
side.

>>
>> Boy this sounds like a Enterprise vs the Death Star debate from
Usenet...I'm
>> rambling :)
>
>The Death Star could vaporize the Enterprise! ;)
>
>BZA

Don't mean nuttn, a Bird of Prey took out the E - D (with a lot of luck and
inside help), so perhaps the debate should be "Klingons V Stormtroopers".

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 10:57:26 -0700
From: mdeck@quintcom.com
Subject: Re: 3D Universe was Re: Hexagons

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
<snip>

Jo Grant has a nifty little PC program called CHview at
ftp://ftp.maths.tcd.ie/pub/jaymin/chview/

<snip>

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<


I had problems getting the program from this address, but I found a good webpage
devoted to the whole thing at http://members.nova.org/~sol/chview/chv0.htm -
There is a 16-bit version available for download too...

Cheers, Mike.
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Michael Deck.            Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? |
+------+ Systems Engineer, Information Services, Operations Group +------+
+------+ Quintessent Communication Inc. Bellevue, Seattle, U.S.A. +------+
| Email: mdeck@quintcom.com AIM:Zakimimula Ph: 425 201 2520 ICQ:26998205 |
+----------------------------------------------ooo-/*\-ooo---------------+
                                                  (O O)
                                                   |||

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:02:23 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re Platinum

>On the flip side, on of my sisters can only wear gold. She gets the same
>reaction to ANY other metals. Her better half is all was bitching about this
>because she love her trinkets

Mighty "convenient" allergy, if ya ask me...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 11:13:42 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re:Hexagons

>>>I am moving stars out of the center of their
>>>hexagons in order to make more believable star maps.
>>
>>He, He, but then stars one hexagon apart wont necessarily be jump one apart.
>
>Indeed. Once you stop the "one star per hex at its middle" design, why not
>just record the coordinates, throwaway the hexes and do all sums with a
>calculator (or tables or a ruler or "in your head")

You could do that, and then to make it easier to figure out jump distances
you could draw range bands around all stars that are within one parsec of
each other. Then, because all systems that are within one parsec take
exactly the same time to travel to, you could move the stars to equidistant
points to represent their equal travel time. Do the same thing with all
stars that are more than one parsec but less than two parsecs distant. Draw
the "range bands" as hexagons and you get... exactly the same star maps you
started with.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 14:30:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: 3dmapping

>
>I would, but I suck at math, and have no clue how to calculate all that. Is
>there any programs out there to do this? Mac preferably, although I do have
>Virtual PC.
>
>BZA

To find distance from a to be with 3d coordinates:

D=([(Xa-Xb)^2]+[(Ya-Yb)^2]+[(Za-Zb)^2])^.5

But, if you really want it, I can bang out an ugly text-interface Mac
Application in a few hours, sometime next week (private email only,
please.. I'll be gone all weekend). Or, if you have excell, layout your top
4 rows and left 4 collums with the name and coordinates, and in e5, input
the following formula:
	=sqrt((($b5-e$2)^2)+(($c5-e$3)^2)+(($d5-e$4)^2))
This assumes row 1 and Collumn A are names
2 and b are X coords
3 and C are Y
4 and D are Z.
You can fill down and right; this formula is specifically keyed for filling
(that's what all the dollar signs are for). In lotus, it is very similar
(altho I haven't touched lotus in years).

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 15:54:13 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Fun With Bryce

Just doodling around.  Its no where near Jesse's caliber,
but it did only take a couple of minutes.

Its an image in JPG format that might serve as a background/
setting/mood picture for PCs.

http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/watrport.html

- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

NOTE: Please include all previous mail in responses.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 16:13:06 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re:Hexagons

At 11:13 AM 6/25/99 -0700,  Richard Hough wrote:
>>>>I am moving stars out of the center of their
>>>>hexagons in order to make more believable star maps.
>>>
>>>He, He, but then stars one hexagon apart wont necessarily be jump one apart.
>>
>>Indeed. Once you stop the "one star per hex at its middle" design, why not
>>just record the coordinates, throwaway the hexes and do all sums with a
>>calculator (or tables or a ruler or "in your head")
>
>You could do that, and then to make it easier to figure out jump distances
>you could draw range bands around all stars that are within one parsec of

I will take them out of the hexagons. The 3D starmaps I have been looking at
have been making MTU look foolish, so eventually every star will be (x,y,z)
with ME being (0,0,0) of course. I was just thinking of using the hex as a
standard "world exists within this parsec" test.

I didn't figure on range bands ala TNEC
(http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller), I figured on connecting every
one jump star with a red line, two jump stars with blue lines, etc...
Of course, we are at TL9 IMTU, so it will be a while before jump-2 becomes
available. An example of this (7 parsecs around earth) is at
http://www.rmharris.com/pub/nyrath/closegal.gif, and of course starmap.html
in the same directory is where most of my nutty ideas are coming from. 

Now I see there is a 3dstarmaps thread, I will have to go read it!



- -- 
IMTU:  tc++ tm- ?tn ?t4> ?t5>++ tg- ru ge+(++) !3i() c+>- st he+
       so++ vi-- va-   (Rob Brady: robb at datatone dot com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 16:34:46 EDT
From: TDRandall@aol.com
Subject: Re: First In - Aion homeworld errata

In a message dated 6/24/99 1:08:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:

<< Do be aware that the Bode rules are one of many possible spacings that
 fulfil a *required* condition. Simply put, no planet may have an orbit
 whose period is related to that of another "near" orbit by an integer.
 And simple fractions (2/3, 3/2, etc) are likely ruled out as well.  >>

Hmm, I didn't get all the specifics, but a quick search on yahoo with 
something like "Neptune Pluto Resonance" gave a link that claimed those two 
planets have a 2:3 relation.  Of course, Pluto is far from being a "normal" 
planet in its orbit compared to the others.  Maybe this is the early stages 
of just what shadow is talking about?!?

Tony

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 14:09:47
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (Spoilers for MiGE)

At 12:09 PM 6/25/99 -0400, you wrote:
>Hypercleats writes:
>"Hanging out with Moties? Speaking of which, they are ALIEN! 
>Has anyone else read "The Mote in God's Eye", and what 
>opinions are there on Moties? Does anyone use them in their 
>campaign?"
>
>	My only objection to the Moties is that they are just 
>	too capable. In Traveller I shy away from aliens that
>	are vastly better at everything than humans. Yes, I may
>	be humanocentric... sue me! In Star Trek I feel free to
>	use aliens that ignore the limitations that physical
>	laws tend to impose, but not in Traveller.

But that was the whole point of the novel.. the Moties, if let out of the
sysem, would overwhelm humanity!  That's what made the cycles so tragic..
this great race, with so much potential, was doomed by it's unending need
to breed...
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:16:40 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Heretic system presence (was Hexagons)

So my new heretic rule is:
A system is present in the hex to the left and below me, hmm..
   _
 _/e\
/a\_/
\_/

Eideann is e, Amho is a. In (X,Y) coords Eideann is at (0,0), and until
I move it, Amho is at (-0.707107,-0.707107) (you'll have to trust me on
this one).

I move the system by (D100-50*.0133) on the X axis (1.33 being
the width of a hex in parsecs) and by (D100-50*.01) on the Y axis (1
being the height of a hex in parsecs.

I roll 99 (wow!) on D100, so I add (99-50 *.0133) or +0.6517 to the X
value giving -0.055407.
I roll 48 on D100, so I add (48-50 * .01) or -0.02 to the Y value
giving -0.727107.

Amho (actually a binary G8 V / K0 V system with one gas giant) is now
located at (-0.055407, -0.727107), 0.729215006 parsecs or 2.36265662
light years away.

Am I psycho? No, this will all happen automatically soon.

So what are the rules for jumps: 1 parsec is the max, or can this be fudged?
I am thinking 1 parsec is the max.

My next question becomes what are some reasonable rules for adding depth to
a starmap? It would seem to me that you would want to change the density
rules to make the roll for system presence harder, then generate a cube,
say 7*7*7. (Would this mean system presence would be 7 times harder?). My 
other thought is to make system presence easier, and while I might generate
several systems in the same 'hex', they would get moved up or down (on the
Z axis).

Finally, I am thinking about loading the gliese3 data into a database, and
coming up with some statistics based on that.

Maybe I'll just stick with 2D for now...


- -- 
I could not say I believe. I know! I have had the experience of being gripped
by something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God.
							-- Carl Jung
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 15:08:51 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel

>http://caliban.physics.utoronto.ca/neufeld/FTL.stuff/throop.txt
>is probably a better explanation of how FTL violates causality,
>but once again the only way to violate causality in the
>Traveller universe is jump from a system that has a velocity
>of 0, to a system that has a velocity of near C (.82C is what
>is specifically mentioned).

Great site Rob, thanks. From my understanding, it is not necessary to jump
between systems that have a near-c relative velocity, but only that
interactions between systems take place at near-c relative velocities. For
example, communicating with a starship that travels at a high speed.

Objects moving relative to each other have different time/spaces axes.
Everyone knows that time and distance of a moving object are dilated
relative to a stationary observer, but apparently simultaniety is also
broken. For example, an event A that happens before event B in my frame of
reference may happen after B in a reference frame dilated by a high
relative velocity. Note this does not mean that the other observer merely
sees light from event B first, from that frame of reference it *really
happens first*. Normally this does not cause any paradoxes because the two
reference frames have separate "light cones"; regions of their time/spaces
axes they can interact with. So whereas the second observer will see B
before the first observer sees A, he cannot communicate that information to
the first observer until that observer also sees B. I don't understand the
mathematics, but apparently this is not some kind of coincidence but a
necessary result of the speed of light being the same in all frames of
reference. You can't interact with objects in the future, or at a distance,
because they are outside your light cone. Causality is maintained because
two observers who observe conflicting sequences of events must move into a
consistent light cone to be able to communicate. The sequence in this third
light cone may not agree with their observations, but it is consistent.

But FTL travel breaks all this. FTL travel lets you interact with events
outside your light cone; you will be able to observe events before they
happen.

So what does this have to do with Traveller? Well, you can now use jump
drive to get rich. Find some pair of planets which exchange time-sensitive
data; for example, stock quotes, news stories, or battle plans. Call the
point in space/time where your ship is on one planet event A.  Call the
event where the stock quote (or whatever) is revealed point B in space/time
such that from the first planet's frame of reference A happens before B.
Now, figure out a time axis where B happens before A. You will probably
need a velocity close to c to do this, but it's possible. Now start
following that trajectory, and have someone radio the time-critical data to
you at B as you pass by at 0.9c. Now from your frame of reference, A is in
the future, but to travel there or send a signal you have to move into the
other planet's light cone, which according to relativity must take longer
than the time between A and B. Or it would, if you didn't have jump drive.
With jump drive you can short-cut the normal flow of time and move directly
into the other planet's light cone and transmit the data you got at B. From
your frame of reference you exchanged information between two strongly
time-dilated planets. But from A's frame of reference they get information
from the future. Not a prediction, mind you, or information from an
alternate universe, but from an actual point in space/time from its future
light cone.
- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@home.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #770
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 771



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
Re: TML, Face-to-face
Re: FTL == time travel
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
RE: Fun With Bryce
Copyright information
Imperial Marines  (was: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)
Re: Copyright information
Alien life (was Re: Copyright information)
Re: FTL == time travel
Re: Imperial Marines  (was: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)
Re: Imperial Marines  (was: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)
Re: Imperial Marines  (was: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)
Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 17:23:02 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

Imaginactra wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> Don't mean nuttn, a Bird of Prey took out the E - D (with a lot of luck and
> inside help), so perhaps the debate should be "Klingons V Stormtroopers".

Or one of my favorite cross-genre battles of all time:  Imperial
Stormtroopers vs. Starfleet Security.  Seems the Stormtroopers fired
first, and they all missed.  But the redshirts died anyway.  >;-)

ObTrav:  Traveller military personnel (at least those generated with
Mercenary or High Guard) seem to be _much_ more competent in combat than
either redshirts or Stormtroopers.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:48:04 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: TML, Face-to-face

In a message dated 6/25/99 2:49:01 AM !!!First Boot!!!, jg42@cornell.edu 
writes:

<< I'm currently in Nassau County, and will be here for the rest of the
 summer.  Any TMLers in the area?  Anyone interested in/looking for players
 for a Traveller game (Any Milieu although CT or GT preferred....)?
 
           -- Juliean Galak (a.k.a. Falcon)
 
 --  >>

Contact Mr. Roger Cooper at rogercoop@aol.com, and mention my name (Seth 
Kimmel). He's the one I gamed with when I lived on the Island. He owns 
EVERYTHING that has been published for CT, and NO he's not selling it...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:56:00 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel

This thread is starting to support the idea that travel between stars using
Jump Drive is not FTL travel at all.  If one removed generation ships and
jump masking from the game, the 2-D Hexagonal nature of the mapping system
could be said to relate otherwise unconnected systems.  There would be
nothing to prevent every Traveller system existing in a separate literal
universe, connected only through J-Space.  Ideas?  Takers?

Paul@Schirf.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 19:52:51 -0400
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

At 06:32 PM 6/23/99 +1000, you wrote:
>Folks, would it be worthwhile starting a series on alien building?
>I'd be happy to start in with biochemistry and physiology.
>Thad Coons posted some stuff a little ways back about pre-biotic
>chemistry ; Ian 'Peez' Ferguson can keep us honest if he has the
time.

	Anything you want to post, I want to save for future reference!
- -- ------------------------------------------------------------ --
   Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj 

   Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:25:27
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

At 05:23 PM 6/25/99 -0500, you wrote:

>ObTrav:  Traveller military personnel (at least those generated with
>Mercenary or High Guard) seem to be _much_ more competent in combat than
>either redshirts or Stormtroopers.

Nature of film/TV.  Realistic infantry combat would involve a flurry of
shots, each side throwing smoke, and calling in artillery.

Also, television and film have to tone down what really happens when you
shot someone.  Imagine the sequence when the Stormtroopers break into
Leia's ship in the early parts of SW:ANH.  Instead of that tidy little
corridor, imagine rebel troops half-burned, loose organs spilled onto the
deck, a mutilated Stormtrooper screaming for his mother.. sort of loses the
space opera touch..

That's part of the reason Saving Private Ryan was so acclaimed by combat
vets.  It's probably the first film to deal so graphically with the
absolute charnel house nature of war.  A friend remarked that given the
mediocre nature of the rest of the film, SPR was probably the only film
ever to win Best Picture on the strength of one scene.

In the character template I'm doing for Imperial Marines (part of my work
for the G:T Ground Forces book, which I hope to be writing), I'm having a
hard time justifying given many traditional infantry skills to the Marines.
 These guys fight in Battle dress, and would probably only learn to fire a
rifle as sort a precursor to the *real* training.  A Marine out of his
armor might even have Combat Paralysis from being "naked" when combat
breaks out.  He's seen what happens to unarmored bodies.
- -- 

 Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:56:12 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Fun With Bryce

Bryce is pretty fun to play with, isn't it?  I have it my library as well
since it's SSSOOOOO much easier to create quick-n-dirty landscapes with it
than it is with Lightwave.  And Bryce 4 now exports to Lightwave :)

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Steve
> Daniels
> Sent: Friday, June 25, 1999 12:54 PM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Fun With Bryce
>
>
> Just doodling around.  Its no where near Jesse's caliber,
> but it did only take a couple of minutes.
>
> Its an image in JPG format that might serve as a background/
> setting/mood picture for PCs.
>
> http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/watrport.html
>
> --
> Bloo
> Support Guru and Registrar
> Roger Wilco
> http://www.rogerwilco.com/
>
> NOTE: Please include all previous mail in responses.
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 20:17:28 -0500
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Copyright information

Can someone send to me the address of the copyright FAQ mentioned on this
list in the past?

ObTrav: I just got back from a hiking trip in Death Valley. It amazes me
that life seems to flourish even in that harsh, hostile environment (the
coyotes carried on at night like a bunch of drunken banditos). Has anyone
come up with some alien lifeforms that have evolved to live in other harsh
environments that might be found in the 10,000 systems that is the Imperium?

A somewhat related question: How common is alien life in your campaigns? How
many Imperial worlds have native life, and how many have ecosystems imported
from the various homeworlds?

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 19:43:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Imperial Marines  (was: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)

- --- "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

> In the character template I'm doing for Imperial Marines (part of my
> work
> for the G:T Ground Forces book, which I hope to be writing), I'm
> having a
> hard time justifying given many traditional infantry skills to the
> Marines.
>  These guys fight in Battle dress, and would probably only learn to
> fire a
> rifle as sort a precursor to the *real* training.  A Marine out of
> his
> armor might even have Combat Paralysis from being "naked" when combat
> breaks out.  He's seen what happens to unarmored bodies.

I will have to disagree here.  Several points.

Number 1. Not every use of marines will involve 
battle dress. In less dangerous environs, the marines will be armed 
with lesser weapons and in body armor. Not every job for them will 
be one that combat is expected. They had best be able to handle 
trouble in that state.

Number 2. The battle dress is expensive. Perhaps only some of the 
contingent of marines in a garrison will have battledress. 

Number 3. In a safe zone, marines could be attacked by surprise. 
It would look really bad for the Emperor's best to be trashed by 
some unarmored schmucks.

I have served in the airborne. So my viewpoint is colored by what 
I know. That may not be the same view that others have.  

Terry Mixon
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 22:47:43 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Copyright information

From: Joseph R. Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net>
> A somewhat related question: How common is alien life in your campaigns? How
> many Imperial worlds have native life, and how many have ecosystems imported
> from the various homeworlds?

Perhaps I should shut up, and I usually do, but this must be my month to pop
my head up.

In my current campaign there is a distinctly early-Asimovian flavor.  There
are no alien intelligence's, no ancient manipulators.  Human colonization of
the stars began slowly because it was found, in star-system after
star-system, that nothing living exists off of Terra.  Every world is a
"Terra-formed" world.  All life forms, no matter how mutated from their
original forms, began on earth.  Earthmen expanded their domains in the new
frontiers, until expansion could not be sustained any longer.  The empire of
man throbbed, expanding and contracting, until it reached intergalactic
space and could no longer expand exponentially.  Then it began to collapse.
See a Foundation tie in here?  Not surprising.  But the reason that I have
chosen this background is rather simple.  History repeats, for one.  But
more importantly, according to statistics, that _is_ most-likely the actual
situation.  The odds of life existing are remote in the first place.  The
odds of there being two planets in this galaxy with life on them is
staggering.  Jumping off from there, I'm trying to explore what humankind
might be able to do with all of this real estate!

BTW, this milieu is in it's infancy.  If you are interested, take a peek at
http://www.downport.com/pbem to see how the play-by-e-mail game is going.
Please bear in mind that it has been close to twenty years since I created a
new universe from scratch.  It seems much harder, now. ;-)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 23:42:11 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Alien life (was Re: Copyright information)

at 08:17 PM 6/25/99 -0500, Joseph R. Dietrich wrote:
>A somewhat related question: How common is alien life in your campaigns? How

I also have a Un-OTU, and I am trying to base it as much upon reality
as possible. Life exists on many systems, but getting above the 
pennsylvanian era (IIRC: plants, insects, and fish) is rare, getting any
intelligent life is very very rare (out of 442 worlds I generated (1 
sector) there were 15 intelligent species, 9 of them had already done
themselves in (you know: nuclear wars; greenhouse gases; overpopulation
and food riots), 5 of them had low tech, and 1 was a spacefaring,
pre-interstellar system. I tend to think this is a little high, but the
rest of them may still do themselves in. After all, if there are so
many intelligent beings out there, why haven't they radioed us yet?

On the other hand, the particular Gas Giant that my homeworld orbits
around has several planets that support life, three of them have 
intelligent beings. Perhaps they seeded each other somehow?

I based my world generation on
http://www.mu.org/~joe/traveller/house/altWorldGeneration.html


- -- 
I could not say I believe. I know! I have had the experience of being gripped
by something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God.
							-- Carl Jung
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 00:01:58 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel

At 03:08 PM 6/25/99 -0700, Richard Hough wrote:
>Great site Rob, thanks. From my understanding, it is not necessary to jump
>between systems that have a near-c relative velocity, but only that
>interactions between systems take place at near-c relative velocities. For
>example, communicating with a starship that travels at a high speed.

My thought was that I cannot use FTL to communicate with a _ship_ moving
at near C. I can only jump from system to system at near C velocities.

I myself also do not get the math, but it seems to me that if I travel 
past a world and recieve a message, all this is taking place within
the light cone. Now I jump to a system (FTL travel) moving at close to 0
relative to my origin and radio that information to them. I don't see
this as disrupting anything. The only questions I have are - is the jump
week relative to the ship, or to the system?

>time-dilated planets. But from A's frame of reference they get information
>from the future. Not a prediction, mind you, or information from an
>alternate universe, but from an actual point in space/time from its future
>light cone.

Of course, in the real world it would take 3.24 years to get the
information, but if the 1 week jump is 1 week relative to the system,
then it takes just as long to transmit the information in a near C 
ship as it does in a 0 speed ship.

I hope I am making sense, 'cause all I did was read Feynman & Hawkings,
never took a physics course.

- -- 
Rob Brady 685B57            Computer Geek, 4 terms
Computer-4, Electronic-2, Streetwise-1
"Don't even ask about quirks!"     robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 00:17:09 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines  (was: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)

In a message dated 6/26/99 2:43:34 AM !!!First Boot!!!, tlmixon@yahoo.com 
writes:

<<  will have to disagree here.  Several points.
 
 Number 1. Not every use of marines will involve 
 battle dress. In less dangerous environs, the marines will be armed 
 with lesser weapons and in body armor. Not every job for them will 
 be one that combat is expected. They had best be able to handle 
 trouble in that state.
 
 Number 2. The battle dress is expensive. Perhaps only some of the 
 contingent of marines in a garrison will have battledress. 
 
 Number 3. In a safe zone, marines could be attacked by surprise. 
 It would look really bad for the Emperor's best to be trashed by 
 some unarmored schmucks.
 
 I have served in the airborne. So my viewpoint is colored by what 
 I know. That may not be the same view that others have.  
  >>

I concur...I could see several "loadouts" depending on mission:

Battledress and Fusion gun
Combat Armor and Gauss rifle
Combat Environment Suit and ACR
Cloth and Autorifle (or even shotgun; maybe even just sidearms for "safe" 
missions like embassy duty or something). Here's an adventure nugget: Protect 
a diplomat who decides that the "big stuff" can't be used for "diplomatic" 
reasons.

my two imperial credits worth...

BTW for any real life gunners on the list: Do you know anybody who makes 
concealed carry, carriers/pouches for Bianchi speedstrips and HKS 
speeloaders? I have pouches, but they are for my duty belt and are way too 
noticeable. It sucks being a wheelgunner in a semi-auto world....

back to Traveller.......

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 21:51:54
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines  (was: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)

At 07:43 PM 6/25/99 -0700, you wrote:

>I will have to disagree here.  Several points.

No problem, as I said, this is in my proposal for GT:GF
>
>Number 1. Not every use of marines will involve 
>battle dress. In less dangerous environs, the marines will be armed 
>with lesser weapons and in body armor. Not every job for them will 
>be one that combat is expected. They had best be able to handle 
>trouble in that state.

That's the Army's job.  The Army is the force you send in for peacekeeping,
internal security all that rot.  The Marines are a pure shock and combat
force.  They are nothing but kick ass.  Tell a Marine to be subtle and
he'll refrain from using micronukes.

In short the Imperial Marine Force is the ultimate level of Imperial
intervention.  When they come in, just their presence can stop rebellions
in their tracts.

One of the sidebars I've composed has a Marine fire team popping a
micronuke on a single sniper.. an observer in the command craft wonders why
the excessive firepower was used, when the rifle the sniper had couldn't
even scar the Marine armor.

The Force Ensign in charge explained that the witnesses to the event would
tell everyone that not only is resistance futile, but extremely deadly to
boot, and that the Marines will be able to mop up without having to inflict
massive casualties.

>Number 2. The battle dress is expensive. Perhaps only some of the 
>contingent of marines in a garrison will have battledress. 

When not on combat deployments, they wear some sort of utility/fatigue
uniform.

The Imperium can easily afford to equip the 5000 or so Marines in each
subsector.  Assume that Marine Assault BD costs about Cr. 500,00 with
weapons.  That's 2.5 billion credits per subsector.  Easily raised by the
Imperium.

>Number 3. In a safe zone, marines could be attacked by surprise. 
>It would look really bad for the Emperor's best to be trashed by 
>some unarmored schmucks.

That's why they are used only as assault troops.  Army troops do the
consolidation thing.  

They do have weapons for self defense, but they don't train in combat ops
the way the Army does.  Think of them as tankers.. they are lost outside
their vehicles, with minimal training on what to do if their vehicle is
disabled.

>I have served in the airborne. So my viewpoint is colored by what 
>I know. That may not be the same view that others have.  

Welcome to the club :)


- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 21:56:19
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines  (was: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)

At 12:17 AM 6/26/99 EDT, you wrote:

>Battledress and Fusion gun

Standard Marine load.

>Combat Armor and Gauss rifle
>Combat Environment Suit and ACR

these are Army equipment.

>Cloth and Autorifle (or even shotgun; maybe even just sidearms for "safe" 
>missions like embassy duty or something). Here's an adventure nugget: 
>Protect a diplomat who decides that the "big stuff" can't be used for 
>"diplomatic" reasons.

Marines on Embassy duty stand in their best class As and look impressive.
When the Embassy is threatened they do don items like CES and use shotguns,
but Embassy duty is a special case.  The vast majority of the Fleet Marines
only use battledress in combat, and that could leave a Marine forced to
fight without it with a bad case of the shakes.



- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 00:58:36 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Friday, June 25, 1999 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek


>That's part of the reason Saving Private Ryan was so acclaimed by combat
>vets.  It's probably the first film to deal so graphically with the
>absolute charnel house nature of war.  A friend remarked that given the
>mediocre nature of the rest of the film, SPR was probably the only film
>ever to win Best Picture on the strength of one scene.


Only problem is that it was Shakespeare in Love that won Best Picture. ;)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 09:33:34 +0100
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

In message <001a01bebdd6$f82e7dc0$93a508cf@october-country>, Chris
Seamans <semo@pil.net> writes
>>(I thought the answer was fair and concise; the sniper in effect said
>>that he feels only the physical sensation, and no emotion.)
>
>
>To the best of my knowledge, nobody seems to be questioning the validity of
>the question in and of itself, nor the validity of the SEAL's answer. Just a
>misunderstanding based on imperfections in the language. ;)

Or the boxing match where the winner was interviewed:
"what state were you in after 5 rounds?"
"Tennessee"
- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 21:35:43 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> At 05:23 PM 6/25/99 -0500, you wrote:
> 
> >ObTrav:  Traveller military personnel (at least those generated with
> >Mercenary or High Guard) seem to be _much_ more competent in combat than
> >either redshirts or Stormtroopers.
> 
> Nature of film/TV.  Realistic infantry combat would involve a flurry of
> shots, each side throwing smoke, and calling in artillery.

Quite true, especially your last point (calling for artillery).  IMHO,
anyone who, given choices of Traveller skills, generates a combat-arms
character (rank E5 or above) without Forward Observer skill is
criminally negilgent.
> 
<<snips film references>>
> 
> In the character template I'm doing for Imperial Marines (part of my work
> for the G:T Ground Forces book, which I hope to be writing), I'm having a
> hard time justifying given many traditional infantry skills to the Marines.
>  These guys fight in Battle dress, and would probably only learn to fire a
> rifle as sort a precursor to the *real* training.  A Marine out of his
> armor might even have Combat Paralysis from being "naked" when combat
> breaks out.  He's seen what happens to unarmored bodies.

Some ways to justify traditional infantry training for Imperial Marines:

1.  "First In."  Marines often perform deep recon missions, in support
of Fleet operations.  It's much easier to hide and observe if one can
function without Battledress.

2.  "Show the Flag."  In peacetime, Marines may be sent to wavering
client states, as a show both of force and of support.  Such deployments
are essentially diplomatic in nature, and thus under the direction of
the Imperial Foreign Service (or whatever analogue YTU possesses). 
Often, diplomatic concerns preclude the use of battledress, for fear of
overly frightening the locals.  (see "Somalia, lack of armored vehicles"
for a 20th century equivalent)

3.  Raiding.  Some raids, such as those performed by the Roughnecks in
Heinlein's novel _Starship Troopers_ [not to be confused with the
erroneously- titled movie], are best conducted by battlesuited troops. 
("Put them all to the sword; the Good Lord will know His own.")  Raids
that require stealth, OTOH, need troops that can operate without wearing
anthropomorphic tin cans.

Having presented these points, I still like your idea of including the
Combat Paralysis disadvantage (at reduced points, since it only applies
when the character is not in battledress) as a possible disadvantage in
a Marine template.

> --
> 
>  Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
>      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/
> 
> "Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
>                     -Adam West, as Batman


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 23:08:42 +1200
From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@staff.salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

> > If you go to a dynamically stable robot, the extra power requirements
> > for size are not really connected to the number of legs.  Just make
> > the legs lightweight compared to the body, and how many of them you
> > have is not very relevant.
>
> My point about the extra power required for extra legs was from the show.
Either
> I misunderstood the narrator, or he was just plain wrong.

It boils back to the sensors available for locomotion - tilt-sensors, etc,
for a biped.  We move other body parts to keep our cog stable (within
certain parameters) at different rates.  An example excluding one of these
sensors would be to spin on your fancy new office chair for a few seconds,
then try to stand up.

> > The four legged robot, using its legs in pairs, was generally more
> > stable and conceivably just as fast as the biped.  After all, we used
> > pairs of legs to make a single "virtual" leg, then used the biped
> > running algorithm.  Its _big_ problem was that there were more parts
> > to maintain.
>
> Treating a pair of legs as a single, virtual, leg means you end up with a
robot
> that walks like an elephant: both legs on a side move in tandem. Now,
there are
> many creatures whose legs do not work this way. Now that I think of it, my
cat
> doesn't walk like that; each leg operates independently.

Single, horizontally or diagonally opposed legs moving in tandem, depending
on speed.  Standing still is standing still, obviously.  Slow movement is
one-leg-at-a-time.  Faster movement 'trotting' can be diagonally or
horizontally joined.  Sprinting is generally horizontally opposed, back legs
pushing then front legs pulling with a major lump of back movement in the
middle.  Directional agility is a little limited though.

> I don't know if there are advantages to having independent legs or not,
but I
> can see that the walking motion becomes much more complex when all legs
move
> independently. There must be an evolutionary advantage to having
independent
> legs. Anyone care to put forth an opinion?

Different speeds with grace, I guess.  Just speeding up a two-virtual-legged
operation won't necessarily work since some movement equations will scale
differently to others.  Everything must use the minimal amount of energy to
get the job done.

> > A hypothetical six-legged running robot would have the following
> > qualities:
> > 1. More parts to break.

:)  Honda made a six-wheeled atv, didn't they?

> > 3. Higher maximum speed, if you are willing to be less stable (running
> > with three pairs of legs).
>
> I think that this point suffers from the law of diminishing returns. There
is a
> huge increase in maximum speed when you go from one leg to two, a lesser
one
> when you jump to four legs, and it's probably minimal after that.
>
> This assumes that the legs do not move in tandem. If they move in tandem,
then
> you're not gaining much by adding legs.

Thats the point though - why have more legs if they move in tandem? Have
more legs and make them move independantly, thus increasing their usability.
The front legs can be used for other things while still being statically
stable on unstable terrain. (Imagine a goat with arms, on a mountainside).

> > 4. Higher stability, at the cost of maximum speed (running with an
> > alternating tripod gait).
> Agreed.

What about other factors, not just movement.  Hiding, for instance.
Climbing?  Attack prowess?  A biped can hide a lot of power in a small area
(as can a quadraped, if you've ever tried to hold a cat that doesn't want to
be held...  diminishing returns again).

Having a brother who continually harasses me for electronic designs for
robots means I read lots about robots (note: reading lots doesn't make me an
expert!).  A recent cool idea is movement using single-direction pull and
spring return actuators.  A ductile material that when power (heat) is
applied actually shrinks.  I think it was subject to metal fatigue though.
Keeping tension for a bidirectional actuator would be fun, too.

Another one is a polymer gel that swells and contracts in response to
chemical stimuli.  Some israli scientists discovered it in the late 40's.
"The fiber bundles shrink when the solution they're immersed in becomes
acidic; but stir in some base and they swell to many times their former
size"...

The best designs still mimic their genetic counterparts though.  Bipeds for
freedom of movement, quadrapeds for speed and stability.  It is hard for a
biped to be statically stable without expending power, too.

Hybrid designs such as a four-legged two-tracked robot can be used to give
the best of two worlds (it pulls the legs out of the way to use the tracks
on flat ground, but uses the legs on rough ground), but in the end whoever
gets the four-legged thing to move fast will win since the component count
and maintenance equation will be lower.

As for redundancy, a wolf may be able to chew its own leg off to get out of
a bear trap, but it's not going to be a happy wolf afterwards.  I don't
think that is a good argument for a biological entity - even less so for a
robot designed to operate such.

Thats my rambling for the night...

Mike.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #771
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 772



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: FTL == time travel
Game Balanced Aliens (Re: Xenobiology 101 (Spoilers for MiGE))
Re: Heretic system presence (was Hexagons)
Flourishing Fauna (was Re: Copyright information)
Re: Game Balanced Aliens (Re: Xenobiology 101 (Spoilers for MiGE))
Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #771
Re: Xenobiology 101 (Spoilers for MiGE)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #771
Re: Xenobiology 101 (Spoilers for MiGE)
Re: FTL == time travel
Re: Xenobiology 101 (Spoilers for MiGE)
Re: Copyright information
Re: Imperial Marines  (was: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)
Re: Imperial Marines

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 23:18:36 +1200
From: "Mike Smith" <mjsmith@staff.salcom.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

>A recent cool idea is movement using single-direction pull and
> spring return actuators.  A ductile material that when power (heat) is
> applied actually shrinks.  I think it was subject to metal fatigue though.
> Keeping tension for a bidirectional actuator would be fun, too.

Got that one wrong - it expands with heat, but some property causes it to
return to its original shape even although cooling under tension.

<System overload error - strike any user to continue>

Mike.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 06:33:34 -0500
From: "James Pearson" <jdpearson@wr.net>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Now this could poses some _realy_ interesting role playing!  
Imagine the PCs meeting a race which is extremely attractive and 
charismatic ... one of the players tries to become involved 
romantically ....

"Hey ... you realize I'm a male too right??? ..."

> >No doubt! IIRC, hyenas are hermaphroditic and give birth through their...
> >well, nevermind.
> 
> Sorry, that's another urban myth. (Veldt myth?)
> 
> "The sexes in spotted hyenas are so much alike that the only way you can
> be certain that you do in fact have a pair is if they breed. Female hyenas
> have a clitoris the same size as the male penis and equally erectile. Her
> vaginal labia are fused to form a pseudoscrotum which is filled with fatty
> bodies as large as male testicales. In every external respect the sexes
> are identical and when two hyenas meet and go through a greeting display
> that involves mutual sniffing and licking, both male and female genitals
> become erect and the animals stand head to tail with one hind leg lifted
> in precisely the same way...


- -- James Pearson
"The purpose of a referee is to present obstacles 
for players to overcome as they go about seeking 
their goals, not to constantly make trouble for them.
This is a very subtle distinction ..."
The Traveller Book, p. 12
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Nebula/4089
IMTU tc+ tm tn t4+ tg++ ge(-) 3i(+) c+ au(+) as+ va+ zh+ vi+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 13:57:31 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel

Again, you are all mistaking the observation of events for the causuality
linking between those events. FTL travel does not violate causality, nor
does it presume the possibility of time travel; what it DOES do is break the
presumed law identified in Einstein's General Theory which is that
INFORMATION cannot travel faster than the speed of light between the points
at which the information is generated or incorporated. There are now known
instances where that presumed law does appear to be broken, such as in some
quantuum tunnelling effects and in the general class of objects known as
tachyons (which theoreticaly cannot travel SLOWER than the speed of light).
However, neither of these cases has been shown to be able to transfer
information, due to the relative uncertainty in making measurements on the
basis of the elementary particles involved.

Light, in fact is not the limiting factor, nor the 'cone' it describes in
any way related specifically to the process and flow of the 'arrow of time'.
It is merely a simple descriptive term used to roughly outline the
relationship between two or more points in spacetime. Spacetime, regardles
of the 'cones' within it is a single, consistent, medium with defined
properties, one of which presently appears to be that the flow of events it
describes proceeds in one direction. There are some possibilities that time
travel may be permitted in certain circumstances, but none of these have
been demonstrated, even theoretically, and none rely on FTL travel at all.
Instead, all rely on the use of negative energy.

I'm sorry, but in this instance, the canon is - and IMHO is likely to
remain, except perhaps in very special conditions - quite correct. I can see
no case as yet discussed here that either implies or describes a time travel
situation.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 25 June 1999 23:44
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel


>>http://caliban.physics.utoronto.ca/neufeld/FTL.stuff/throop.txt
>>is probably a better explanation of how FTL violates causality,
>>but once again the only way to violate causality in the
>>Traveller universe is jump from a system that has a velocity
>>of 0, to a system that has a velocity of near C (.82C is what
>>is specifically mentioned).
>
>Great site Rob, thanks. From my understanding, it is not necessary to jump
>between systems that have a near-c relative velocity, but only that
>interactions between systems take place at near-c relative velocities. For
>example, communicating with a starship that travels at a high speed.
[snipped for clarity]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:24:40 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Game Balanced Aliens (Re: Xenobiology 101 (Spoilers for MiGE))

>>	My only objection to the Moties is that they are just 
>>	too capable. In Traveller I shy away from aliens that
>>	are vastly better at everything than humans. Yes, I may
>>	be humanocentric... sue me! In Star Trek I feel free to
>>	use aliens that ignore the limitations that physical
>>	laws tend to impose, but not in Traveller.

        I agree whole-heartedly.  Otherwise, I have a problem justifing for
why Humanatii would not have been over-run or assimilated as a client state/
race to the other "super races".  As an aside, in AD&D, how many groups have
you seen that even have a *majority* of humans?  Too many benefits to taking
one of the demi-human races.
        As a result, I tend to work on a simple accounting system...  a
given race cannot be any more than "+2" greater than human...  Every point
af stat or skill better must be balanced back down with a dis-add of some kind.
        One of my favorite home-brew races from my first CT Traveller game
were the Zevarians.  Sentient Otter-folk, about four feet tall.  Phenomenal
engineers (automatic Eng +1 or Mech +1, player's choice) with good reflexes
(Dext +2).  Unfortunately, Zevaria is a size 6 waterworld.  This resulted in
poor strength and endurance in normal G  ranges (-1 Stren, -1 Endur).  The
other issue is that the average Zevarian has absolute nightmares trying to
even concieve the vector math required to work out interstellar jumps (Nav -1).
        The result in my game was that the ship's engineer was usually a
Zevarian.  Murder with a laser, handy with a hyperdrive, and a nightmare at
a Nav console.  A good balance.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:45:42 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Heretic system presence (was Hexagons)

At 05:16 PM 25/06/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>Finally, I am thinking about loading the gliese3 data into a database, and
>coming up with some statistics based on that.
>
>Maybe I'll just stick with 2D for now...
>
>
        Hi, Rob...  Check out my 2D near-star map on my website...  going 2D
with the gliese data causes problems...  you can't move for fear of bumping
into a star-system.  My map is pretty "empty" by comparison because I have
eye-ball filtered out any thing that wasn't main sequence, except those with
cool names =).  The 2D Gliese is playable that way.

        IMTU, YMMV, YAAA, BYE.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 10:56:12 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Flourishing Fauna (was Re: Copyright information)

At 08:17 PM 25/06/1999 -0500, you wrote:
>A somewhat related question: How common is alien life in your campaigns? How
>many Imperial worlds have native life, and how many have ecosystems imported
>from the various homeworlds?

        Hi!
        My first CT game had sixteen different races within an average
density three sector area...  My current CT game, the Terrans are sure they
aren't alone, but haven't actually encountered any other races.  One extreme
to the other, I guess.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 06:53:10
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Game Balanced Aliens (Re: Xenobiology 101 (Spoilers for MiGE))

At 10:24 AM 6/26/99 -0300, you wrote:
>
>>>	My only objection to the Moties is that they are just 
>>>	too capable. In Traveller I shy away from aliens that
>>>	are vastly better at everything than humans. Yes, I may
>>>	be humanocentric... sue me! In Star Trek I feel free to
>>>	use aliens that ignore the limitations that physical
>>>	laws tend to impose, but not in Traveller.
>
>        I agree whole-heartedly.  Otherwise, I have a problem justifing for
>why Humanatii would not have been over-run or assimilated as a client state/
>race to the other "super races".  As an aside, in AD&D, how many groups have
>you seen that even have a *majority* of humans?  Too many benefits to taking
>one of the demi-human races.

Well, the Moties were limited by their need to breed incessantly and by the
sole Alderson point in their system ending up inside a star.  Even with
their modified Langston Field, they were pretty effectively trapped in
their home system, doomed to the Cycles.

Oddly, most of the AD&D games I've played have been mostly human, but that
might be an artifact of our DM, whose game world feature some strong racism
between the major races.  A group of elves, dwarves and humans were about
as popular most places as civil rights workers in 1963 Mississippi.

One thing I'm doing for my upcoming GURPS:Traveller game is using so of the
templates from Biotech to design aliens and divergent human races. Works
pretty well.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 07:19:32
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

At 09:35 PM 6/25/99 -0500, you wrote:

>> Nature of film/TV.  Realistic infantry combat would involve a flurry of
>> shots, each side throwing smoke, and calling in artillery.
>
>Quite true, especially your last point (calling for artillery).  IMHO,
>anyone who, given choices of Traveller skills, generates a combat-arms
>character (rank E5 or above) without Forward Observer skill is
>criminally negilgent.

I've gotten several groups of mercenaries this way.. they piled on Combat
Rifleman and Tactics, but nobody took Forward Observer.  Then the are
outnumbered 5-1 by an enemy force that would be decimated by the fire
support, if only they knew how to call it in!

Note for the civilians: Calling in artillery support is not easy.  In fact
it's one of the hardest things to learn to do properly.  Do it wrong, and
you can easily kill dozens of your own troops.  Artillery units won't
answer incorrect fire requests, on the theory that a Bad Guy has gotten the
radio and COI and is trying to cause friendly fire.

>Some ways to justify traditional infantry training for Imperial Marines:
>
>1.  "First In."  Marines often perform deep recon missions, in support
>of Fleet operations.  It's much easier to hide and observe if one can
>function without Battledress.

Troops chosen for Special Operation Groups get special training.  Like most
recon types, this training is more about evading contact that stand up
fighting.

>2.  "Show the Flag."  In peacetime, Marines may be sent to wavering
>client states, as a show both of force and of support.  Such deployments
>are essentially diplomatic in nature, and thus under the direction of
>the Imperial Foreign Service (or whatever analogue YTU possesses). 
>Often, diplomatic concerns preclude the use of battledress, for fear of
>overly frightening the locals.  (see "Somalia, lack of armored vehicles"
>for a 20th century equivalent)

In a Battledress Diplomacy situation, the Marines will probably parade in
their gray and maroon dress uniforms, cutlasses held at present arms, then
suit up for a firepower demo.

In a situation like Somalia or the current one in Kosovo, the Imperial
marines would only be used until an Army unit, such as a Lift Infantry
Brigade, could be packed up and sent to the scene.  Army troops have the
training and equipment to support peacekeeping or humanitarian missions.

>3.  Raiding.  Some raids, such as those performed by the Roughnecks in
>Heinlein's novel _Starship Troopers_ [not to be confused with the
>erroneously- titled movie], are best conducted by battlesuited troops. 
>("Put them all to the sword; the Good Lord will know His own.")  Raids
>that require stealth, OTOH, need troops that can operate without wearing
>anthropomorphic tin cans.

The Scout/Commando battledress in Star Mercs was pretty heavily stealthed.
Once again, Marines in SOGs get special training.  There is one SOG company
per Regiment, which is enough to handle most "soft" mission requirements.

>Having presented these points, I still like your idea of including the
>Combat Paralysis disadvantage (at reduced points, since it only applies
>when the character is not in battledress) as a possible disadvantage in
>a Marine template.

Thanks.  I didn't mean to imply that your average Marine is utterly
helpless without BD, but that their operational mind set is tied up in
having all the advantages of Battledress.  A good example is that Marines
don't have the instinct to drop to cover when shot at, since they can't
really do that in their armor.  Infantry tactics are more a set of reflexes
that require endless repetition to learn.  A battlesuited Marine is going
to learn a whole different set of moves, since he's used to having that
armor, and all the sensors, and the integral weaponry.

One thing I've had fun with is justifying the infamous Marine Cutlass.  At
BayCon, I had a chance to speak with Frank Lurz, a fairly well-known artist
and fencer, and learned from him that fencing is mostly about body
position.  The light went on in my head.  Marines are taught the basics of
fencing both as tradition and to make them "body aware", since they'll be
controlling their armor by subtle movements of the head and hands.  Many
Marines keep up the hobby, and become master fencers.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html 

"In the long run luck is given only to the efficient." 
           -Helmuth von Moltke, Imperial German Army

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 07:00:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

At 12:58 AM 6/26/99 -0400, you wrote:
>From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>

>>That's part of the reason Saving Private Ryan was so acclaimed by combat
>>vets.  It's probably the first film to deal so graphically with the
>>absolute charnel house nature of war.  A friend remarked that given the
>>mediocre nature of the rest of the film, SPR was probably the only film
>>ever to win Best Picture on the strength of one scene.

>Only problem is that it was Shakespeare in Love that won Best Picture. ;)

D'OH!

From: Brain@doug.berry
To: Fingers@doug.berry
Subject: Anybody down there?

Uh guys?  this is the brain here, you know, the one that forced us to stay
up watching the entire Oscar broadcast?  I *know* I told you ten little
idiots to type "nominated", so what happened?

From: Fingers@doug.berry
To: Brain@doug.berry
Subject: Re:Anybody down there?

Don't blame us, it's in your contact that you should review anything we do
for mistakes like that!  We were only following what came over the
Intranerve.
- -- 

 Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

"Some days, you just can't get rid  of a bomb!"
                    -Adam West, as Batman 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 11:04:29 -0400
From: "Shade" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #771

>Marines on Embassy duty stand in their best class As and look impressive.
>When the Embassy is threatened they do don items like CES and use shotguns,
>but Embassy duty is a special case.  The vast majority of the Fleet Marines
>only use battledress in combat, and that could leave a Marine forced to
>fight without it with a bad case of the shakes.

Would this also include Marines who are on shipboard duty?  Marines are
still used aboard ships as guards/ship's troops/etc.  Are they constantly
wearing bat dress in these situations?  Are they tromping up and down
starship halls in bat dress?

I could see them wearing bat dress in a boarding action or some such thing,
but do they put on bat dress when the rest of the Navy crew is putting on
vacc suits?  Is there a pair of bat dressed Marines standing outside the
captain's office at all times?

Just got me wondering

Shade






Madness takes its toll.....please have exact change.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 08:07:09 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (Spoilers for MiGE)

>
> >       My only objection to the Moties is that they are just
> >       too capable. In Traveller I shy away from aliens that
> >       are vastly better at everything than humans. Yes, I may
> >       be humanocentric... sue me! In Star Trek I feel free to
> >       use aliens that ignore the limitations that physical
> >       laws tend to impose, but not in Traveller.

I don't see what physical laws the Moties break, and the reason for keeping
them bottled up(see below) would apply in ST as well, wouldn't it?

>
> But that was the whole point of the novel.. the Moties, if let out of the
> sysem, would overwhelm humanity!  That's what made the cycles so tragic..
> this great race, with so much potential, was doomed by it's unending need
> to breed...

Yes, but only great for reading. I will have to read the books again and put
my mind to a solution that is not a mere handwave. They are fantastic
aliens, and I would like to bring them "out" into the rest of the universe.
Except that they would make it a Motie Universe. Maybe they could be
contained in an isolated cluster?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 08:15:03
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #771

At 11:04 AM 6/26/99 -0400, you wrote:
>>Marines on Embassy duty stand in their best class As and look impressive.
>>When the Embassy is threatened they do don items like CES and use shotguns,
>>but Embassy duty is a special case.  The vast majority of the Fleet Marines
>>only use battledress in combat, and that could leave a Marine forced to
>>fight without it with a bad case of the shakes.
>
>Would this also include Marines who are on shipboard duty?  Marines are
>still used aboard ships as guards/ship's troops/etc.  Are they constantly
>wearing bat dress in these situations?  Are they tromping up and down
>starship halls in bat dress?

No, they'd wear shipsuits like everybody else.  At general Quarters, the
guards on the bridge would be suited up.

>I could see them wearing bat dress in a boarding action or some such thing,
>but do they put on bat dress when the rest of the Navy crew is putting on
>vacc suits?  Is there a pair of bat dressed Marines standing outside the
>captain's office at all times?

Marines would wear their battledress when the Navy got into, Vacc gear.
It's easier than having two sets of tanks, etc, for each man.

But once again, ship board duty is an exception to the Marine norm.  While
acting as ship;s security or doing patrols of Startown during liberty, they
aren't (normally) going to get into firefights.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 08:16:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (Spoilers for MiGE)

At 08:07 AM 6/26/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Yes, but only great for reading. I will have to read the books again and put
>my mind to a solution that is not a mere handwave. They are fantastic
>aliens, and I would like to bring them "out" into the rest of the universe.
>Except that they would make it a Motie Universe. Maybe they could be
>contained in an isolated cluster?

Give them a couple of worlds jump-7 from the nearerst human star, and
fortify that system up the wazoo.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 08:50:12 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel

Paul Schirf wrote:

> This thread is starting to support the idea that travel between stars using
> Jump Drive is not FTL travel at all.  If one removed generation ships and
> jump masking from the game, the 2-D Hexagonal nature of the mapping system
> could be said to relate otherwise unconnected systems.  There would be
> nothing to prevent every Traveller system existing in a separate literal
> universe, connected only through J-Space.  Ideas?  Takers?

I subscribe to this theory already, or at least a variation of it. The star
Sol is simply a reflection in the physical universe of the spiritual entity
known as Horaktay, or Hyperion. All other stars we see are "shadows of this
first of shadows", and are simply manifestations on the same entity in
different time-lines. But then again, I'm a nutball! CHIRP!

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 11:19:25 -0700
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (Spoilers for MiGE)

At 08:16 AM 6/26/99 +0000, Doug Berry wrote:
>At 08:07 AM 6/26/99 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >Yes, but only great for reading. I will have to read the books again and put
> >my mind to a solution that is not a mere handwave. They are fantastic
> >aliens, and I would like to bring them "out" into the rest of the universe.
> >Except that they would make it a Motie Universe. Maybe they could be
> >contained in an isolated cluster?
>
>Give them a couple of worlds jump-7 from the nearerst human star, and
>fortify that system up the wazoo.
>--
Reft 0435 or any of a number of worlds in the Great Rift would be a good 
place to be the Mote.


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
  Saying, I would know.
  Do not know.
  So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 13:05:01 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright information

"Joseph R. Dietrich" wrote:

> Can someone send to me the address of the copyright FAQ mentioned on this
> list in the past?

Here you go.

ftp://ftp.aimnet.com/pub/users/carroll/law/copyright/faq/

Another site that is very short and basic overview is at
http://www.lawgirl.com/


> ObTrav: I just got back from a hiking trip in Death Valley. It amazes me
> that life seems to flourish even in that harsh, hostile environment (the
> coyotes carried on at night like a bunch of drunken banditos). Has anyone
> come up with some alien lifeforms that have evolved to live in other harsh
> environments that might be found in the 10,000 systems that is the Imperium?

Is this a veiled lawyers-as-reptiles comment?  ;-)


- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

NOTE: Please include all previous mail in responses.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 13:42:11 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines  (was: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> That's the Army's job.  The Army is the force you send in for peacekeeping,
> internal security all that rot.  The Marines are a pure shock and combat
> force.  They are nothing but kick ass.  Tell a Marine to be subtle and
> he'll refrain from using micronukes.
>
> In short the Imperial Marine Force is the ultimate level of Imperial
> intervention.  When they come in, just their presence can stop rebellions
> in their tracts.

Can't agree with your BD-only interpretation and the clear lines
between Army and Marine responsibilities.  One important factor
in my mind is that because of the distances and time lags involved,
you send in whoever is closest.  That means flexibility of response.

I tend to think of the Army as slower to mobilize.  They're on
one planet, you determine the destination, put 'em on ships,
several weeks later, you put 'em on another planet.  Whatever the
duty is on the destination world, it is known and the Army is
a tailored response.

IMO, Marines are the flexible, rapid-response guys.  To a large
degree, they're already aboard Navy ships.  So they can get
there first.  And since they often won't know what they're facing
with enough lead time to prepared an ideal response, they have
to be ready for anything.  Orbital drop, ground assualt, point defense,
extraction, search and destroy, recon, etc.  It might be easier to
describe what marines don't do:
 - they don't fly ships
 - they don't drive tanks
 - they don't do artillery
Sure, there are minor nits to that, but this is the general rule, IMTU.

I like the cheesy line that was in the Clint Eastwood marine movie
where he plays a Top Sergeant.  All through the film he says:
"Improvise.  Adapt.  Overcome."  Reminded me of some old
competitions I saw years ago on television that involved
some physical and mental test that was a training method
that the British marines used.  It involved using paint cans of
varying weights and using them to climb rope to the top of
a small tower, or something like that.  It was a mental puzzle,
but once you had a solution, it was still a serious physical
challenge.  I have these ideas in the back of my head when
I think about Traveller marines.  They should be ready for
everything from a knife-fight in the jungle, to an orbital
drop, to shipboard fight in zero-g.  And they can still do
that and not be subtle.  :-)


> One of the sidebars I've composed has a Marine fire team popping a
> micronuke on a single sniper.. an observer in the command craft wonders why
> the excessive firepower was used, when the rifle the sniper had couldn't
> even scar the Marine armor.

Umm.  I'm wondering why with the Imperial Rules of War,
the Marine would even have access to a micronuke.  In GT:Star Mercs,
the discussion of the rules of war says the only place that small nukes
would ever be tolerated is in aerospace defense and space combat.


> >Number 2. The battle dress is expensive. Perhaps only some of the
> >contingent of marines in a garrison will have battledress.
>
> When not on combat deployments, they wear some sort of utility/fatigue
> uniform.
>
> The Imperium can easily afford to equip the 5000 or so Marines in each
> subsector.  Assume that Marine Assault BD costs about Cr. 500,00 with
> weapons.  That's 2.5 billion credits per subsector.  Easily raised by the
> Imperium.

The Navy supply ship carrying the necessary parts to maintain and
repair damaged BD misjumps.  The marines still have a mission
that can't wait.  Are they going to say:  "But Colonel, we can't
use our BD.  And we can't carry our FGMPs without the BD."?
I hope not.  But even if they did, I would expect the reply to
be, "You're a marine.  Find a way.  You have 4 hours.  Get it done.
Use rocks and sticks if you have to."


> >Number 3. In a safe zone, marines could be attacked by surprise.
> >It would look really bad for the Emperor's best to be trashed by
> >some unarmored schmucks.
>
> That's why they are used only as assault troops.  Army troops do the
> consolidation thing.

Again, that might be the ideal, but things rarely go according to plan.
The Army guys might be more than a month away.


> They do have weapons for self defense, but they don't train in combat ops
> the way the Army does.  Think of them as tankers.. they are lost outside
> their vehicles, with minimal training on what to do if their vehicle is
> disabled.

Hmm.  Can't say I like that much at all.  But I've already blathered on about
my reasons for that above.


> >I have served in the airborne. So my viewpoint is colored by what
> >I know. That may not be the same view that others have.
>
> Welcome to the club :)

I need a membership card as well.  ;-)

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:00:46 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

>Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 21:51:54
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Marines  (was: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)
>
>That's the Army's job.  The Army is the force you send in for peacekeeping,
>internal security all that rot.  The Marines are a pure shock and combat
>force.  They are nothing but kick ass.  Tell a Marine to be subtle and
>he'll refrain from using micronukes.

The biggest objection I have to this approach is Book 4, p. 6: Marines
receive the same unit assignments as Army units (with the addition of
Ship's Troops), just in different proportions. These include Counter
Insurgency, Internal Security, and Police Actions. The proportions
themselves may not be definitive -- this may represent PC backgrounds,
rather than Joe Jarhead -- but they are indicative.

In TNS entries, it is a retired Imperial Marine major who is "captain of
auxiliaries engaged in counter-insurgency actions" (004-1106). This seems
unlikely, if his prior experience was limited to high-intensity raids and
full-blown combat actions.

I suggest that Imperial Marines are the Quick Reaction Force for whatever
trouble is brewing, large or small. Then, if it looks like the mission is
going to drag on, you send in the Army and save the Marines for the next
crisis.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #772
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 773



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Looking for Ubwon@aol.com
Re: Fun With Bryce
Re: Game Balanced Aliens (Re: Xenobiology 101 (Spoilers for MiGE))
Battledress and Marine Organization
Re: Imperial Marines
Alien Life (was Re: Copyright information)
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: TLs of Star Wars and Star Trek
re : Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines
My take on the Army and Marines (LONG!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 14:07:26 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Looking for Ubwon@aol.com

I'm looking for the guy (Mike something or other) who used to use 
Ubwon@Aol.Com as an email address.  That address is now dead, and I need to 
get ahold of him.  Anybody got any clue about where I can find him?

Thanxx in advance

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 14:24:12 -0400
From: Michael Peters <travelleri@home.com>
Subject: Re: Fun With Bryce

Hey Bloo

Since I don't have Bryce but I do have RDS5 how about a colabaration? I
have a speeder that I've been working on, finished except for interior
that might look go set agains an off worldish landscape. Contact me off
list and I'll send you pic. If you like the idea I can convert it to
appropriate format.

Mike

Steve Daniels wrote:
> 
> Just doodling around.  Its no where near Jesse's caliber,
> but it did only take a couple of minutes.
> 
> Its an image in JPG format that might serve as a background/
> setting/mood picture for PCs.
> 
> http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/watrport.html
> 
> --
> Bloo
> Support Guru and Registrar
> Roger Wilco
> http://www.rogerwilco.com/
> 
> NOTE: Please include all previous mail in responses.

- -- 
Mike Peters
travelleri@home.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 14:27:34 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Game Balanced Aliens (Re: Xenobiology 101 (Spoilers for MiGE))

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Saturday, June 26, 1999 9:21 AM
Subject: Game Balanced Aliens (Re: Xenobiology 101 (Spoilers for MiGE))


>race to the other "super races".  As an aside, in AD&D, how many groups
have
>you seen that even have a *majority* of humans?  Too many benefits to
taking
>one of the demi-human races.


Most groups I've ever played with. Then again, the people I play with tend
to be more serious, so campaigns tend to be longer. The distinct advantage
of being able to freely advance is a big one in such a campaign. You do see
a couple of half elves and elves from time to time though.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 99 13:25:28 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Battledress and Marine Organization

Doug, how you envision the use of Imperial Marines is perfectly fine
for a TU, and it might agree with (or become) the standard for the
OTU, but it might not match up with how others *want* the Marines to
work in their TU.  Whew, did you follow that?  ;-> Anyway, I suggest
you consider some options to your "if it ain't battlesuited it's the
Army's job."

IMTU, for instance, Battlesuited troopers are elite units, the skill
is rare, and the suits are even rarer.  Only in very specialized
games that focused on combat by elite units would battlesuits
appear.  In almost all the games I run the battlesuit skill would be
wasted, because its use wouldn't come up in play.

Let me suggest, that you provide a broader model for the Marines.
In this model the Marines consist of *up to* four branches:  Fleet,
Drop, Line, and Garrison.  As a sidebar you could present the
*option* for GM's that Marines be limited to just Fleet and Drop
while the Army covers the Line and Garrison function.  In this way,
GM's could decide if they want TTU to have Marines be a small elite
force, or a larger more standard force with some elite units.

Here's my suggestion for functions of Marine Force Branches...

Fleet:  Elite, normally ship based, forces tasked with ship
        security, boarding, anti-boarding, and small unit actions in
        support of ship operations.  Special training in Battlesuit
        Ops, low-Z g combat, Marine Ax (or Force Sword), Energy
        Weapon, Boarding Tactics and Otillery support (Fwrd Obs).
        Regular training as per Line Troops.
        
Drop:   Elite forces tasked with insertion by Drop Capsule for
        assaults on hostile planets.  Special training in Drop
        Capsule use, Battlesuit Ops, Marine Ax (or Force Sword),
        Energy Weapon, Ground Tactics and Otillery support (Fwrd
        Obs).  Regular training as per Line Troops.
        
Line:   Regular forces tasked with independent combat actions at
        company and regimental levels.  Trained in Cbt Rifleman,
        (and Pistol for Officers), Cutlass, Ground Tactics, and Fwrd
        Obs. Armory, Support Wpns optional.  Regimental Support
        Units include...
        
        Artillery:  Light artillery/heavy weapons unit attached at
                    regimental level to Line Marines.  Special
                    Training in Hvy Wpns, Artillery, and Energy
                    Weapons. Regular training as per Line.
                    
        Armor:      Light Grav tank unit attached at the regimental
                    level to Line Marines.  Special Training in Grav
                    Vehicle, Hvy Wpns, Energy Wpns.  Regular
                    training as per Line.

Garrison:  A Line unit without Artillery and/or Armor support tasked
        with security, pacification, control and/or defense of
        planetary areas from insurgent forces.  Special security,
        intelligence and logistic units may be attached to a
        garrisoned unit.

The Army would be a much larger organization, but mostly just cadre
units during peacetime.  During mobilization reserve and planetary
conscript units would fill out the cadres.  The Infantry Branch of
the Army would be organized similarly to Marine Line and Garrison
units.  The Army would also have separate Armor, Artillery, and
Support Branches.

Just some things to think about,

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 12:29:47 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

>Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 13:42:11 -0400
>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Marines  (was: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)
>
>> One of the sidebars I've composed has a Marine fire team popping a
>> micronuke on a single sniper.. an observer in the command craft wonders why
>> the excessive firepower was used, when the rifle the sniper had couldn't
>> even scar the Marine armor.
>
>Umm.  I'm wondering why with the Imperial Rules of War,
>the Marine would even have access to a micronuke.  In GT:Star Mercs,
>the discussion of the rules of war says the only place that small nukes
>would ever be tolerated is in aerospace defense and space combat.

Steve -- remember that version of the Golden Rule that runs, "He who has
the Gold, makes the Rules?" 

The Imperial Rules of War are for *other* people in the Imperium --
mercenaries and planetary governments, primarily -- who want to mess around
in the Imperium's demense: warfare. The Imperium can do whatever it
pleases. The Vilani Imperium was fond of the "nuke them from orbit; it's
the only way to be sure" school of counter-insurgency. I can imagine that
the Third Imperium is somewhat kinder and gentler, but only as long as it
suits their purpose. 

Besides, nuclear dampers make clean-up a snap.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 11:35:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Alien Life (was Re: Copyright information)

"C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net> wrote:

>See a Foundation tie in here?  Not surprising.  But the reason that I have
>chosen this background is rather simple.  History repeats, for one.  But
>more importantly, according to statistics, that _is_ most-likely the actual
>situation.  The odds of life existing are remote in the first place.  The
>odds of there being two planets in this galaxy with life on them is
>staggering.  Jumping off from there, I'm trying to explore what humankind
>might be able to do with all of this real estate!

I beg to differ here.  We have no info on sentient life, the galaxy may be
teeming with it, or we may be the only one.  However, life seems to have
evolved on Earth shortly after it cooled. The chemicals of life (amino
acids...) are found in interstellar gas clouds throughout the universe,
and Mars may well have once had life.  All that adds up to a strong
likelihood that life is found everywhere it can possibly evolve. 

Currently we have no idea whether that means most habitable planets in the
galaxy have oceans filled with blue green algae and other single celled
critters, or whether complex multicellular life is more common. The earth
has had life for most the its 4.5 billion years, but for all but the last
800 million years it was merely single-celled. 

Assuming we won't find at least single celled life nearly everywhere it
could possibly exist seems unlikely.  However, further speculation beyond
that point is most definitely guesswork.  In a decade or so we'll
hopefully have more data on the Europan oceans.  If we find life there
then current theories looks to be correct, and if we find multicellular
life there then all bet are off. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com   

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 20:09:34 +0100
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

In message <3771150A.AC5A1BBB@GLJA.com>, Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
writes
>Getting back to my second idea: Here are our brave adventurers, zipping along in
>their air/raft at tree-top level. Unbeknownst to them, 

ObMelBrooks "but knownst to us"

>they fly right over ...

- -- 
Martin Hardgrave

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 15:44:42 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: TLs of Star Wars and Star Trek

>That's part of the reason Saving Private Ryan was so acclaimed by combat
>vets.  It's probably the first film to deal so graphically with the
>absolute charnel house nature of war.  A friend remarked that given the
>mediocre nature of the rest of the film, SPR was probably the only film
>ever to win Best Picture on the strength of one scene.

SPR *didn't* win Best Picture -- Shakespeare In Love did. SPR was very
well filmed, but I don't think it deserved Best Picture either. I'm 
still not sure Tom Hanks was awake during his scenes... :)

But you're right, a movie like SW with the realism of SPR would be
different... and probably not go over too well with a lot of people.

ObTrav: how realistic is the violence in multimedia entertainment in 
the 3I? How *violent* is it? Or does it vary from place to place?


     Glenn St-Germain § Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com § http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 08:55:42 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: re : Imperial Marines

First of all, the Imperial Rules of War dont apply to Imperial Marines.
They are His Magesty's own troops, and the Rules of War only apply to other
people.

Secondly, I'm not that certain that the Imperium would train it's best
instrument only in 'shock' missions. Crushing the revolt is the simple bit.
The problem is to prevent a long-term problem developing.

I like the idea of Imperial Marines feeling 'undressed' without their suits.

I also think that actual armed revolts against the Imperium are rare enough
that Imperial doctrine would have adapted it's tools to lower-intensity
conflict.

The other issue to remember is that most Imperial wars have been fought
within it's own territory - a doctrine that accepts destroying planets in
order to save them would have some issues with the more liberal nobility.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 15:41:22
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

At 12:00 PM 6/26/99 -0600, you wrote:

>The biggest objection I have to this approach is Book 4, p. 6: Marines
>receive the same unit assignments as Army units (with the addition of
>Ship's Troops), just in different proportions. These include Counter
>Insurgency, Internal Security, and Police Actions. The proportions
>themselves may not be definitive -- this may represent PC backgrounds,
>rather than Joe Jarhead -- but they are indicative.
>
>In TNS entries, it is a retired Imperial Marine major who is "captain of
>auxiliaries engaged in counter-insurgency actions" (004-1106). This seems
>unlikely, if his prior experience was limited to high-intensity raids and
>full-blown combat actions.

Trust me, as I write this I'm trying my damndest to stay true to Book 4,
and everything that has been written since.

Counter-insurgency is what we were doing in Vietnam, which as any one who
was there (or studied it at all), was a full blown war vs. a wily foe.
Perhaps the Major was involved with a Mike Force operation, or since it was
specified as auxiliaries, perhaps he was working with a group of locally
raised troops as a cadre.  marine leadership training is very good.

>I suggest that Imperial Marines are the Quick Reaction Force for whatever
>trouble is brewing, large or small. Then, if it looks like the mission is
>going to drag on, you send in the Army and save the Marines for the next
>crisis.

Exactly!  The Marines carry a very small transportation cost.. they are
very light, and can be shipped to a trouble spot far more quickly than the
Army.  If it looks like a long haul, you start bring in the Army who are
optimized for long, drawn out campaigns.

It's a tortoise/hare situation.  The Marines are great in the short dash of
rapid, intense combat, while the Army has the ponderous weight to grind
opponents down over the long run.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 15:46:50
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

At 12:29 PM 6/26/99 -0600, you wrote:

>The Imperial Rules of War are for *other* people in the Imperium --
>mercenaries and planetary governments, primarily -- who want to mess around
>in the Imperium's demense: warfare. The Imperium can do whatever it
>pleases. The Vilani Imperium was fond of the "nuke them from orbit; it's
>the only way to be sure" school of counter-insurgency. I can imagine that
>the Third Imperium is somewhat kinder and gentler, but only as long as it
>suits their purpose. 

I've had some interesting discussions on whether the Vilani would even have
had much of an Army.  Much more cost efficient to go into orbit with a
battlewagon, issue the ultimatum, then stat razing cities until either they
surrender or you've destroyed the population, and can resettle the world.

In playing with GURPS:Vehicles, I've designed a six shot box launcher for
30mm grenades that include micro nuke rounds.  This wouldn't be the
standard load of course, but mighty handy when you are doing something like
trying to silence a planetary defense station.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
Sjolidsforingi, Njosnadeild
Geimdeild sambandshersins 
Gram, Sverdaheimssambandid
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 16:16:49
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: My take on the Army and Marines (LONG!)

This is from my proposal for GT Ground Forces.  Commentary welcome.




The Imperium rules the space between the worlds, but the vast majority of
Imperial citizens live on the 11,000 planets inside the borders.  To defend
these worlds, the Emperor depends on the three prongs of the ground forces
trident.  These are the Imperial Army, the Imperial Marine Force and each
world's Planetary Defense Force.

THE IMPERIAL ARMY

The Imperial Army (IA), also known as the standing, or regular army, is the
largest single body of troops in the Imperium.  The Army is designed to be
the heavy defense force on the surface of planets.  

Because the Imperium is so vast, and faces different threats on every
border, day-to-day control of the Army is vested in the local subsectors.
Each subsector has its own Army command, able to organize and plan for its
own particular needs.  From the top down, the IA command structure for the
Spinward Marches is as follows:

ARMY SUPREME COMMAND (Capital/Core)

This is the highest command authority for the Imperial Army.  This command
is concerned with the long range planning and defense of the entire
Imperium.  This council of senior officers organizes all R&D, mass
equipment upgrades, and changes in Army-wide doctrine and regulations.  The
Supreme Command has almost no influence of line units, directly controlling
only the Imperial Guard regiments stationed on Capital..

DOMAIN COMMAND: DENEB (Depot/Deneb)

At the Domain level, the Army maintains a level of command for the purpose
of strategic planning "behind the claw."  Officers assigned here have a
better focus on the problems and threats facing their area of operations.

Deneb Command also oversees the allocation of Imperial funds to the Sector
forces.  Many worlds in the Imperial Core do not bother with extensive
military development, and pay into a general fund rather than raising units
that are three years from the border in the first place.  The Supreme
Command allocates this money as block grants to the domains, who use it to
fund projects of local need.  Many times, this money is passed down the
line with no strings attached.  This is generally the case in Deneb, due to
the wildly varying threats the region faces.

Domain level commands control a small group of elite troops, rarely more
than a Corps, who act as a "fire brigade" for the command.  Since this is
traditionally the Marine mission, there is a great deal of friction over
these unit's existence.

SPINWARD MARCHES HIGH COMMAND (Rhylanor/Rhylanor)

The sector high command is the highest level of command that directly
commands regular Army units.  In a wartime situation, units leaving their
home Subsector come under the control of the sector command for the
duration of their transit.  Leaving this control only when the unit either
returns home or is handed off to a local command for combat.  The sector
command controls the reserves and logistics for the Army when it mobilizes.

The sector command also distributes funding to the Subsector Armies.  Since
planning is done decades in advance, each Subsector force submits an annual
update on its projected needs over the next ten years.  Budget allocations
are made based on both these figures, and on the needs of the sector as a
whole.

The sector command controls the strategic reserve for the sector.  This
consists of all Army units out of their home Subsector and in transit, as
well as all colonial forces (see below) committed to action.

SUBSECTOR ARMY HEADQUARTERS (subsector capitals)

The Subsector Army is the heart of the Imperial defense.  Each Subsector
crafts its force to meet its unique needs and threats.  Subsector
Headquarters is where the actual purchasing of equipment takes place.
Within guidelines from higher headquarters, each Subsector is pretty free
to equip its forces as it wishes.  All of the forces in the Spinward
Marches equip their forces with psionic shields due to the threat of
Zhodani commandos.

Operationally, the Army HQ coordinates the actions of its forces, in
addition to those assigned to it by higher command, in the defense of the
Subsector.  If offensive operations are called for, Subsector forces may be
seconded to the assault force at the Sector Command's discretion.

COMBAT ORGANIZATION

The basic combat organization of the Army is the Brigade.  Designed to be
an independent fighting force, brigades can fight without much support for
several weeks, assuming regular supply.

The basic maneuver element of the IA is the brigade.  Designed to be a
self-contained, independent fighting force, combat brigades come in three
basic types:

(note: TO&E illustrations would be added before descriptions.)

The Lift-Infantry Brigade has a headquarters (30 men, 3 Astrin APCs), three
lift-infantry battalions (420 men, 44 Astrin APCs), a tank battalion (200
men, 40 Intrepid Tanks, 2 Astrin APCs), an artillery battalion (220 men, 18
Multiple Rocket/Drone Launchers), air defense battery (60 men, 8 air/space
defense vehicles), reconnaissance company (57 men, 12 air/rafts), engineer
company (70 men, 4 Astrin APCs), medical company (25 men, 2 G-carrier
ambulances), maintenance company (65 men) and a transportation company (70
men, 40 G-carriers).

The Grav-Tank Brigade has a headquarters (30 men, 2 Intrepid tanks, 2
Astrin APCs), three tank battalions (200 men, 40 Intrepid tanks, 2 Astrin
APCs), a lift-infantry battalion (420 men 44 Astrin APCs), an artillery
battalion (220 men, 18 Multiple Rocket/Drone Launchers), air defense
battery (60 men, 8 air/space defense vehicles), reconnaissance company (57
men, 12 air/rafts), engineer company (70 men, 4 Astrin APCs), medical
company (25 men, 2 G-carrier ambulances), maintenance company (65 men) and
a transportation company (70 men, 40 G-carriers).

The Rapid Interface Brigade (also known as jump troops) has a headquarters
company (30 men) three jump battalions (400 men), and a support company (60
men).  RIBs have no organic vehicles, and need to be supported by their
heavier counterparts.  They are trained as raiding or light infantry.

Lift-infantry Brigades make up 67% of the available forces in the Spinward
Marches, with Grav-tank units contributing 29% and RIBs at 4%.

Brigades are combined into divisions; a lift-infantry division would have
two lift-infantry brigades and a single grav tank brigade.  Tank divisions
would switch this ratio around.  Divisions also have extensive artillery
and combat support units.  A typical lift-infantry division would be
equipped with:

Division headquarters (320 men), two lift-infantry brigades, one tank
brigade, an artillery group (1,800 men, meson weapons, MRLs, Drone
launchers, tube artillery), and air/space defense battalion (250 men), an
independent tank battalion (220 men, 45 Intrepid tanks), reconnaissance
battalion (300 men), engineering battalion (340 men), support battalion
(560 men).

Grav tank divisions use two tank brigades in place of the two infantry
units, and dispense with the independent tank battalion, otherwise they are
much the same.

Above the Division level, come the Corps.  Corps are composed of three to
five divisions, with additional support units.  Corps rarely standing
formations, being formed on an as needed basis.  Corps Headquarters exists
in peacetime, but have no real duties beyond readiness exercises.

The highest operational level of the Army is the Field Army.  This massive
grouping is made up of several corps, and can easily field over 100,000
troops and all their equipment.  

THE ARMY MISSION

The Imperial Army exists to defend the member worlds of the Imperium.  It
accomplishes this using the best equipment available and training in all
the skills the soldiers need.

In peacetime, soldiers in the IA can find themselves on any of a number of
assignments.  Many planetary governments use the IA for peacekeeping
duties, or as disaster relief when the local forces are unable to cope.
The IA is never committed without a great deal of thought and planning,
since moving even a single brigade can tie up many thousand tons of
shipping and require the service of several Navy escorts.

The most common role for the IA is that of peace-keeper.  On many worlds,
the IA sits on disputed borders or between feuding ethnic populations.
These missions can be quite stressful, but the presence of a massive
over-whelming force is usually enough to calm even the hottest tempers.
These missions also give much-needed combat experience to junior officers
and NCOs.

The Army also trains against local forces, providing an opposing force in
invasion scenarios.  Many planetary governments find that having the
Regulars "invade" their world is a good way to shake up a military that
might have become complacent about their skills.

REGIMENTS AND LINEAGE

While the combat commands are organized around brigades, the Army's history
and honors are handed down to Regiments.  Each Battalion is part of a
Regiment.  These Regiments are not actual organizations, but exist only as
a source of esprit de corps and pride for the members of that Regiment.

When the Sylean Army began the change into the Imperium Army, many units
resisted giving up their old unit ties for the new system, also, as the
Army grew, it became clear that without some new type of organization, the
army would soon be dealing with extremely large and unwieldy unit numbers.

In the year 123, the Army High Command instituted the Regimental system.
Under this plan, each world of the Imperium raises specific Regiments for
the IA.  These regiments are named for the world, or can be named for a
specific region on that world where the bulk of the troops lived.  Some
units carry more colorful names, referring to a particular habit or notable
trait of the troops.  One hard rule is that the name has to identify the
type of troops in the regiment, although even here some leeway is given.
There exists a list of acceptable terms for infantry, cavalry, and other
types of units (see _Star Mercs_ for details).

For example, an infantry regiment from Mora could be called the 102nd Moran
Rifles, or be named the Culhoon Heights Regiment of Foot, or even the 4th
Matriarch's Guards Regiment.

Regiments tend to be composed of three battalions.  It is very rare to see
all three battalions serving together in a brigade, since the presence of
several different regiments encourages competition between the units to be
the best soldiers.


THE IMPERIAL MARINE FORCE

When the average citizen thinks of Imperial power, the image that comes
first is usually the battledress clad Imperial Marine.  The Emperor's
striking force, the Marines have a long history of taking the dirtiest jobs
and succeeding against heavy odds.

The Marines are tied to the Imperial Navy.  The Navy provides the Marine
force with all the various support activities it needs, from supply to
orbital fire on hostile targets.  The Marines also act as ship's troops,
along with guarding Imperial installations such as consulates.

The highest level of Marine organization is the Regiment.  Regiments  are
made up of three force commands (see _Star Mercs_) plus a Regimental
command company.

Marine Regiments are distributed throughout the Imperium on the basis of
two Regiments for each numbered fleet.  At any given time, one Regiment
will be dispersed in company and platoon sized assault ships, carrying out
patrols and missions within their assigned subsector, while the other
Regiment will be at a base, exercising as a whole.  The Fleet's Marines are
commanded by the Fleet Colonel (O-7).  The highest rank in the Marine Force
is Sector Marshal (O-9), the commander of an entire sector's Marines, both
fleet and regimental.

MARINE RANK STRUCTURE

E-0  Recruit (RCT) (only used during initial training)
E-1  Armsman 3rd Class (AM/3)
E-2  Armsman 2nd Class (AM/2)
E-3  Armsman 1st Class (AM/1)
E-4  Corporal (CPL)
E-5  Sergeant (SGT)
E-6  Gunnery Sergeant (G/SGT)
E-7  Master Sergeant  (M/SGT)
E-8  Ship's Sergeant  (S/SGT)
     Master Gunner   (M/G)
E-9  Fleet Sergeant  (F/SGT)
     Command Fleet Sergeant (CF/SGT)
     Master Fleet Sergeant  (MF/SGT)


O-1  Force Ensign  (FENS)
O-2  Force Leader (FLR)
O-3  Force Lieutenant (FLT)
O-4  Major  (MAJ)
O-5  Force Commander (FCDR)
O-6  Colonel  (COL)
O-7  Fleet Colonel (FCOL) 
O-8  Marshal (MSL)
O-9  Sector Marshal (SMSL)


The high end NCO ranks require some explanation.. A Ship's Sergeant is the
senior NCO of either a Marine Company or any detachment smaller than a
Battalion.  A Master Gunner is a Marine serving in a 
technical position without command authority.

Fleet Sergeants are different from Command Fleet Sergeants in that the
CF/SGT is the senior NCO of a Battalion or larger unit.. There is an
unofficial rank of Regimental Fleet Sergeant for the CF/SGT of a Regiment.
Master Fleet Sergeant is the rank given to senior NCOs of entire fleets or
subsectors.  There is one Sector Command Master Fleet Sergeant per sector,
and the Force Master Fleet Sergeant has his office on Capital. 

Enlisted Marines who make Corporal may apply to OCS.  This is the only path
to commission.  There are no Academy Marine officers.  A new officer can
expect his year as Force Ensign to be spent as a gopher for senior officers
as he learns the ropes of his new position.

An Enlisted Marine E-5 or above may request a bust of one rank and "Career"
status.  That marine has acknowledged he has been promoted beyond his
means, and wishes to freeze his rank at the one he just left.  Such a NCO
uses the word "Career" before his rank in most situations.  {example: "I am
Career Gunnery Sergeant Redding, and you now belong to me and the Emperor.
You had better pray he comes for you, because I will show you no mercy.")
If the Marine Force determines that the request is being made for any
reason other than a true devotion to duty, the petition will be denied and
the NCO will usually be separated.

Career NCO's are accorded extra respect for giving up advancement in order
to stay in the position where they can serve best.  In game terms, Career
NCOs should have a +1 Reputation (large group).

MARINE OPERATIONS

More than any other service, the Marines are dedicated to the raw
application of force.  Marines are not trained in the peacekeeping or
limited operations that the Army excels at.  When the Marines engage in
combat, their creed is to use the maximum amount force possible to
overwhelm and destroy the enemy in the minimal amount of time.  Marines are
infamous for using fusion weapons to destroy an entire building to root out
a single sniper.

The Marine Force's main job is to secure a foothold on hostile worlds.  To
this end, all Marines are trained in rapid interface techniques and
equipped with the absolute best the Imperium can give them.  The usual
target for the Marines is the world's starport, which coincidentally is
usually heavily equipped with ground to space defenses. 

Marines are also tasked to board vessels in deep space whenever called
upon.  This can be as simple as assisting in a deep space rescue or customs
inspection, or as difficult as boarding a crippled enemy warship against
armed opposition.  If there is any one mission the Marines dread, it is
fighting their way through the killing zones of an unfamiliar starship.

Outside of open warfare, the Marines still serve an important duty.  One of
the most visible Marine roles is their part in piracy suppression.  When a
pirate base or haven is located, the Marines will raid it to both insure
its destruction and to secure whatever intelligence might be found.
Imperial Intelligence has found that the personal nature of these actions
shocks the backers of the pirates, and can effectively scare the backers
into moving operations elsewhere.

Non-Fleet Marines play a variety of roles in the Imperial defense
establishment.  Marines are the Emperor's troops, and guard all Imperial
facilities.  The most visible of these guards are the  sophonts assigned to
guard Imperial consulates on member worlds.  These Marines are selected for
their appearance and poise, and serve as a daily reminder of the implied
force that the Imperium controls.

MARINE ARMORED CAVALRY REGIMENTS

The only truly heavy force in the Marine arsenal, Armored Cav regiments are
fairly rare.  The regulations call for one MarArmCav regiment for every
eight line regiments.  In effect there is one MarArmCav regiment for every
four subsectors.  These units are capable of devastating entire worlds, and
sit only one step below unrestricted orbital bombardment in the list of
options the Imperium has to a crisis.  

MarArmCavs are never committed without a clear, immediate threat that
warrants the Imperium releasing it's full power.  A MarArmCav requires
heavy support from the navy for transport and supply, and given the
Marines' "no holds barred" approach means whatever force is on the
receiving end of this force had better be prepared for a desperate fight.

A MarArmCav Regiment consists of a Headquarters company (70 men, 2 Intrepid
tanks, 4 Astrin APCs), three Armored Cavalry Battalions (165 men, 40
Intrepid tanks, 2 Astrin APCs), a Meson Artillery Section (70 men, 8 meson
sleds, 4 G-carriers)

MARINE TRADITIONS

The Imperial Marine Force traces it's roots to a detachment of Rule of Man
Marines stranded on Sylea at the beginning of the Long Night.  The RoM
Marines were in turn based on the assault troops of the Terran
Confederation.  These troops were drawn from several sources on Earth, most
notably organizations such as the United States Marine Corps, the Royal
Marines, and various airborne and special operations groups.  With such a
long history, the Marines have developed some unique and fiercely guarded
traditions.

Marines were a maroon beret.  This beret is only granted to a recruit after
he successfully completes rapid interface training, and is awarded in a
very solemn ceremony.  It is a point of pride for the Marines that incoming
Army troops should be greeted by Marines who have taken off their helmets
and donned the berets.  This is a subtle hint that the hard work has been
done, and that the Army is just coming in to "mop up."

Another tradition that the Marines have fought long and hard to retain is
the bagpipe.  Marine pipers have been around since the Sylean Marines were
founded, and it doesn't appear that the armor-rending wails will ever fade
from Marine lore.  One of the most coveted skill badges is Master Piper,
and a Marine lives his tour of duty hearing the pipes daily.

Some have theorized that the only reason the Marines cling to the pipes so
intensely is that the sound of bagpipes in a confined area like a starship
drives the Navy insane.  Whether or not this true, a Regimental band of
pipes and drums remains one of the Marines' best recruiting tools.

Strangely, the Marines have turned the pipes to their combat advantage.
While it is a myth that Marines land with a piper equipped with a
battle-dress mounted set of pipes, they have adapted the sound to an
effective psychological warfare tool.  Marine drop ships are equipped with
powerful radio jammers, and also drop electronic warfare pods that are
likewise intended to interfere with enemy communications and sensors.  The
Marines play prerecorded bagpipes with enough strength to drown out the
enemy's own transmissions.  The demoralizing effect of having your radio
channels suddenly flooded by "Sylea the Brave", along with the knowledge
that the music indicates that you will soon be dealing with the
overwhelming, merciless fire of a Marine unit, has caused more than one
defender to immediately surrender.

In defiance of their "spit and polish" image while drilling, the Marines
are notorious for covering their personal armor, equipment, and vehicles
with all sorts of graffiti.  Marines may scrawl commentary about the enemy,
outsized Imperial Sunbursts or regimental crests, or cartoons based on
perceived characteristics of vehicle commanders.  While officially frowned
on, this activity is tolerated due to the Marines' battlefield abilities.

One Marine tradition with roots strongly grounded in sound tactical
thinking is the cutlass.  Originally, the Marines retained the ancient
weapon merely as a symbol.  During the Chaestin War immediate preceeding
the founding of the Imperium, the Sylean Marines found themselves called on
to board and capture disabled enemy vessels.  The powerful fusion weapons
used by the Marines tended to cause more damage than necessary, prompting
Star Sergeant J. Redding to begin carrying his dress cutlass ointo battle.  

The cutlass proved quite useful in breaching enemy vacc suits. Also, the
sight of a squad of Marines in battledress waving swords often proved to be
too much for the ship's crews, who would often surrender without a fight.

In honor opf Star Sergeant Redding, all Marines learn basic swordplay as
part of their intial training.  Many Marines have gone on to win great
acclaim as fencers or duellists.

PLANETARY DEFENSE TROOPS

The largest arm of the Imperial ground forces triad is made up of the
individual armies of the member worlds.  Almost infinite in variety, these
forces provide the depth of defense that keeps the Imperium safe.

Each world of the Imperium is responsible for its own defense.  While the
Imperium will assist the member worlds, the final responsibility for a
government's survival rests with that government.  To that end, most worlds
raise at least a token force of armed troops.

On many worlds of the Core, these armies are little more than glorified
police forces.  With no strife since the Civil War, and the borders over a
year's travel away, these worlds have decided that there is little cause to
spend billions of Credits maintaining a force that will have few
responsibilities beyond keeping their weapons clean.  The closer you get to
the frontiers, the more interested planetary governments get in maintaining
an effective protection against outside aggressors.

On other planets with more repressive governments, there may exist large
forces mostly gear towards the suppression of internal dissent.  At the
most extreme, these forces can act as an occupying force in their own
homeland.

It should be stressed that local forces are completely independent of the
Imperial chain of command.  They answer only to their governments.  This
freedom also means that these armies are able to procure equipment to their
own standards, rather than using the Imperial standard.

Local defense forces, also called PDF (Planetary Defense Forces), are
divided in three broad categories.

GROUND FORCES

PDF Ground Forces are similar in concept to the Imperial Army, but
specialized for local conditions and technology.  Freed of the need to
travel far from their home world, these forces can use levels of
mechanization that most Imperial planners can only dream of.

Since the implied mission of a PDF unit is defensive in nature, planners
tend to stock up on the items that will help them hold off a besieging
force.  Vast stocks of artillery ammo, along with extensive spare part and
fuel depots are usually foremost in priority.  

An exception to this rule is balkanized worlds, where the various
nation-states will be arming not just for defense, but possible against
each other.  These worlds have a history of engaging in conventional arms
races of almost suicidal proportions, since they know that the Imperium
stands ready to intervene if things get out of hand.

PDF ground forces are the last place a traveller is likely to see tracked
vehicles used in any front-line role.  Jewell (Spinward Marches/Jewell) is
notable for equipping it's PDF with tracked and wheeled vehicles.  A desire
to keep cost low, along with the cluttered nature of Jewell's cities, make
these vehicles effective even against modern grav tanks.

Local forces in the Imperium use a bewildering number of organizational
plans and formats.  Almost any imaginable plan, no matter how crazy, has
been tried on at least one world.  It's not uncommon to encounter units
with titles like Legion, Cohort, Band, or anything else from human history.

NAUTICAL FORCE COMMAND

Also known as the "wet navy," the NFC is found on worlds with significant
oceans.  Often an addition to the ground forces, the NFC is strongest on
balkanized worlds of moderate technology (tech 6-9) with more than fifty
percent hydrosphere.  In these situations, the wet navy can become the
dominant military force on a world or in a nation.

Wet Navies are rarely much more than glorified search and rescue
operations. Once grav vehicles become common, the need for massive warships
fades.  The height of naval technology is seen at TL 8.

Since water interferes with most sensors, the Nautical Force Command
becomes a convenient hiding place for planetary defense weapons such as
meson-equipped submarines or secret supply depots for system defense boats
on the ocean floor.  An Earthlike world with large oceans can hide any
number of surprises for an invader.

Of all the PDF forces, the Wet Navy tends to be the most tradition bound.
For many races, the first truly organized military effort was the navy, so
the sense of history is strong for these sailors.

CLOSE ORBIT AND AEROSPACE CONTROL COMMAND

The third leg of the PDF triad is COACC.  This branch is responsible for
the defense of the world's airspace, from ground level to geosynchronous
orbit.  They also have responsibility for defense of any in-system assets
such as gas giants or secondary settlements on other worlds.  In many
systems, COACC is responsible for carrying out custom inspections and also
serves as a rescue service.  

There is considerable debate in the Imperium over the viability of
atmospheric fighters.  Many feel them to be anachronisms, without purpose
against fighter craft designed for the rigors of space combat.  The other
school holds that vehicles built explicitly for air to air combat hold a
great advantage over more general purpose interface vehicles.  Both sides
in the debate can point to various battles that seem to give support to
their views.

Many worlds without real navies of their own give COACC operation of the
system defense boats.  This allows a planet to have a consistent defense
structure from deep space to the planet's surface.  The majority of worlds
that can afford SDB's prefer to organize them as a separate service.

On balkanized worlds, the various national COACCs (more often called "Air
Forces") can field a wide variety of different purpose built bombers, recon
craft, and fighters.  On single government worlds, where the mission is
defense, the most common vehicle seen is the hypersonic interceptor.

COLONIAL FORCES

In times of great peril, such as a major war, planetary forces may be
volunteered for Imperial service.  Such forces are referred to as "Colonial
Units," and are generally considered to be of a lesser quality than
front-line troops.  Regardless, these troops can take a great deal of
pressure of harried commanders by assuming garrison and security roles,
freeing up units for the front lines.  Since these are not Imperial units,
their equipment and training can vary wildly, making it hazardous to mix
them with Imperial units.  During the 5th Frontier War, there was one
recorded case of an Imperial Marine point-defense system firing on
approaching colonials because their non-standard G-carriers were not in the
fire control computer's memory.



- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #773
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Saturday, June 26 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 774



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

My take on the Army and Marines (LONG!)
Apology
Re: Alien Life
Re: re : Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines 
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 16:31:37
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: My take on the Army and Marines (LONG!)

This is from my proposal for GT Ground Forces.  Commentary welcome.  Just a
reminder that I've put up my interpretation of Marine ranks at:

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/imfrank.html


The Imperium rules the space between the worlds, but the vast majority of
Imperial citizens live on the 11,000 planets inside the borders.  To defend
these worlds, the Emperor depends on the three prongs of the ground forces
trident.  These are the Imperial Army, the Imperial Marine Force and each
world's Planetary Defense Force.

THE IMPERIAL ARMY

The Imperial Army (IA), also known as the standing, or regular army, is the
largest single body of troops in the Imperium.  The Army is designed to be
the heavy defense force on the surface of planets.  

Because the Imperium is so vast, and faces different threats on every
border, day-to-day control of the Army is vested in the local subsectors.
Each subsector has its own Army command, able to organize and plan for its
own particular needs.  From the top down, the IA command structure for the
Spinward Marches is as follows:

ARMY SUPREME COMMAND (Capital/Core)

This is the highest command authority for the Imperial Army.  This command
is concerned with the long range planning and defense of the entire
Imperium.  This council of senior officers organizes all R&D, mass
equipment upgrades, and changes in Army-wide doctrine and regulations.  The
Supreme Command has almost no influence of line units, directly controlling
only the Imperial Guard regiments stationed on Capital..

DOMAIN COMMAND: DENEB (Depot/Deneb)

At the Domain level, the Army maintains a level of command for the purpose
of strategic planning "behind the claw."  Officers assigned here have a
better focus on the problems and threats facing their area of operations.

Deneb Command also oversees the allocation of Imperial funds to the Sector
forces.  Many worlds in the Imperial Core do not bother with extensive
military development, and pay into a general fund rather than raising units
that are three years from the border in the first place.  The Supreme
Command allocates this money as block grants to the domains, who use it to
fund projects of local need.  Many times, this money is passed down the
line with no strings attached.  This is generally the case in Deneb, due to
the wildly varying threats the region faces.

Domain level commands control a small group of elite troops, rarely more
than a Corps, who act as a "fire brigade" for the command.  Since this is
traditionally the Marine mission, there is a great deal of friction over
these unit's existence.

SPINWARD MARCHES HIGH COMMAND (Rhylanor/Rhylanor)

The sector high command is the highest level of command that directly
commands regular Army units.  In a wartime situation, units leaving their
home Subsector come under the control of the sector command for the
duration of their transit.  Leaving this control only when the unit either
returns home or is handed off to a local command for combat.  The sector
command controls the reserves and logistics for the Army when it mobilizes.

The sector command also distributes funding to the Subsector Armies.  Since
planning is done decades in advance, each Subsector force submits an annual
update on its projected needs over the next ten years.  Budget allocations
are made based on both these figures, and on the needs of the sector as a
whole.

The sector command controls the strategic reserve for the sector.  This
consists of all Army units out of their home Subsector and in transit, as
well as all colonial forces (see below) committed to action.

SUBSECTOR ARMY HEADQUARTERS (subsector capitals)

The Subsector Army is the heart of the Imperial defense.  Each Subsector
crafts its force to meet its unique needs and threats.  Subsector
Headquarters is where the actual purchasing of equipment takes place.
Within guidelines from higher headquarters, each Subsector is pretty free
to equip its forces as it wishes.  All of the forces in the Spinward
Marches equip their forces with psionic shields due to the threat of
Zhodani commandos.

Operationally, the Army HQ coordinates the actions of its forces, in
addition to those assigned to it by higher command, in the defense of the
Subsector.  If offensive operations are called for, Subsector forces may be
seconded to the assault force at the Sector Command's discretion.

COMBAT ORGANIZATION

The basic combat organization of the Army is the Brigade.  Designed to be
an independent fighting force, brigades can fight without much support for
several weeks, assuming regular supply.

The basic maneuver element of the IA is the brigade.  Designed to be a
self-contained, independent fighting force, combat brigades come in three
basic types:

(note: TO&E illustrations would be added before descriptions.)

The Lift-Infantry Brigade has a headquarters (30 men, 3 Astrin APCs), three
lift-infantry battalions (420 men, 44 Astrin APCs), a tank battalion (200
men, 40 Intrepid Tanks, 2 Astrin APCs), an artillery battalion (220 men, 18
Multiple Rocket/Drone Launchers), air defense battery (60 men, 8 air/space
defense vehicles), reconnaissance company (57 men, 12 air/rafts), engineer
company (70 men, 4 Astrin APCs), medical company (25 men, 2 G-carrier
ambulances), maintenance company (65 men) and a transportation company (70
men, 40 G-carriers).

The Grav-Tank Brigade has a headquarters (30 men, 2 Intrepid tanks, 2
Astrin APCs), three tank battalions (200 men, 40 Intrepid tanks, 2 Astrin
APCs), a lift-infantry battalion (420 men 44 Astrin APCs), an artillery
battalion (220 men, 18 Multiple Rocket/Drone Launchers), air defense
battery (60 men, 8 air/space defense vehicles), reconnaissance company (57
men, 12 air/rafts), engineer company (70 men, 4 Astrin APCs), medical
company (25 men, 2 G-carrier ambulances), maintenance company (65 men) and
a transportation company (70 men, 40 G-carriers).

The Rapid Interface Brigade (also known as jump troops) has a headquarters
company (30 men) three jump battalions (400 men), and a support company (60
men).  RIBs have no organic vehicles, and need to be supported by their
heavier counterparts.  They are trained as raiding or light infantry.

Lift-infantry Brigades make up 67% of the available forces in the Spinward
Marches, with Grav-tank units contributing 29% and RIBs at 4%.

Brigades are combined into divisions; a lift-infantry division would have
two lift-infantry brigades and a single grav tank brigade.  Tank divisions
would switch this ratio around.  Divisions also have extensive artillery
and combat support units.  A typical lift-infantry division would be
equipped with:

Division headquarters (320 men), two lift-infantry brigades, one tank
brigade, an artillery group (1,800 men, meson weapons, MRLs, Drone
launchers, tube artillery), and air/space defense battalion (250 men), an
independent tank battalion (220 men, 45 Intrepid tanks), reconnaissance
battalion (300 men), engineering battalion (340 men), support battalion
(560 men).

Grav tank divisions use two tank brigades in place of the two infantry
units, and dispense with the independent tank battalion, otherwise they are
much the same.

Above the Division level, come the Corps.  Corps are composed of three to
five divisions, with additional support units.  Corps rarely standing
formations, being formed on an as needed basis.  Corps Headquarters exists
in peacetime, but have no real duties beyond readiness exercises.

The highest operational level of the Army is the Field Army.  This massive
grouping is made up of several corps, and can easily field over 100,000
troops and all their equipment.  

THE ARMY MISSION

The Imperial Army exists to defend the member worlds of the Imperium.  It
accomplishes this using the best equipment available and training in all
the skills the soldiers need.

In peacetime, soldiers in the IA can find themselves on any of a number of
assignments.  Many planetary governments use the IA for peacekeeping
duties, or as disaster relief when the local forces are unable to cope.
The IA is never committed without a great deal of thought and planning,
since moving even a single brigade can tie up many thousand tons of
shipping and require the service of several Navy escorts.

The most common role for the IA is that of peace-keeper.  On many worlds,
the IA sits on disputed borders or between feuding ethnic populations.
These missions can be quite stressful, but the presence of a massive
over-whelming force is usually enough to calm even the hottest tempers.
These missions also give much-needed combat experience to junior officers
and NCOs.

The Army also trains against local forces, providing an opposing force in
invasion scenarios.  Many planetary governments find that having the
Regulars "invade" their world is a good way to shake up a military that
might have become complacent about their skills.

REGIMENTS AND LINEAGE

While the combat commands are organized around brigades, the Army's history
and honors are handed down to Regiments.  Each Battalion is part of a
Regiment.  These Regiments are not actual organizations, but exist only as
a source of esprit de corps and pride for the members of that Regiment.

When the Sylean Army began the change into the Imperium Army, many units
resisted giving up their old unit ties for the new system, also, as the
Army grew, it became clear that without some new type of organization, the
army would soon be dealing with extremely large and unwieldy unit numbers.

In the year 123, the Army High Command instituted the Regimental system.
Under this plan, each world of the Imperium raises specific Regiments for
the IA.  These regiments are named for the world, or can be named for a
specific region on that world where the bulk of the troops lived.  Some
units carry more colorful names, referring to a particular habit or notable
trait of the troops.  One hard rule is that the name has to identify the
type of troops in the regiment, although even here some leeway is given.
There exists a list of acceptable terms for infantry, cavalry, and other
types of units (see _Star Mercs_ for details).

For example, an infantry regiment from Mora could be called the 102nd Moran
Rifles, or be named the Culhoon Heights Regiment of Foot, or even the 4th
Matriarch's Guards Regiment.

Regiments tend to be composed of three battalions.  It is very rare to see
all three battalions serving together in a brigade, since the presence of
several different regiments encourages competition between the units to be
the best soldiers.


THE IMPERIAL MARINE FORCE

When the average citizen thinks of Imperial power, the image that comes
first is usually the battledress clad Imperial Marine.  The Emperor's
striking force, the Marines have a long history of taking the dirtiest jobs
and succeeding against heavy odds.

The Marines are tied to the Imperial Navy.  The Navy provides the Marine
force with all the various support activities it needs, from supply to
orbital fire on hostile targets.  The Marines also act as ship's troops,
along with guarding Imperial installations such as consulates.

The highest level of Marine organization is the Regiment.  Regiments  are
made up of three force commands (see _Star Mercs_) plus a Regimental
command company.

Marine Regiments are distributed throughout the Imperium on the basis of
two Regiments for each numbered fleet.  At any given time, one Regiment
will be dispersed in company and platoon sized assault ships, carrying out
patrols and missions within their assigned subsector, while the other
Regiment will be at a base, exercising as a whole.  The Fleet's Marines are
commanded by the Fleet Colonel (O-7).  The highest rank in the Marine Force
is Sector Marshal (O-10), the commander of an entire sector's Marines, both
fleet and regimental.

MARINE RANK STRUCTURE

E-0  Recruit (RCT) (only used during initial training)
E-1  Armsman 3rd Class (AM/3)
E-2  Armsman 2nd Class (AM/2)
E-3  Armsman 1st Class (AM/1)
E-4  Corporal (CPL)
E-5  Sergeant (SGT)
E-6  Gunnery Sergeant (G/SGT)
E-7  Master Sergeant  (M/SGT)
E-8  Ship's Sergeant  (S/SGT)
     Master Gunner   (M/G)
E-9  Fleet Sergeant  (F/SGT)
     Command Fleet Sergeant (CF/SGT)
     Master Fleet Sergeant  (MF/SGT)
     Command Master Fleet Sergeant (CMF/SGT)

O-1  Force Ensign  (FENS)
O-2  Force Leader (FLR)
O-3  Force Lieutenant (FLT)
O-4  Major  (MAJ)
O-5  Force Commander (FCDR)
O-6  Colonel  (COL)
O-7  Fleet Colonel (FCOL) 
O-8  Vice Marshal (VMSHL)
O-9  Marshal (MSHL)
O-10 Sector Marshal (SMSHL)


The high end NCO ranks require some explanation.. A Ship's Sergeant is the
senior NCO of either a Marine Company or any detachment smaller than a
Battalion.  A Master Gunner is a Marine serving in a 
technical position without command authority.

Fleet Sergeants are different from Command Fleet Sergeants in that the
CF/SGT is the senior NCO of a Battalion or larger unit.. There is an
unofficial rank of Regimental Fleet Sergeant for the CF/SGT of a Regiment.
Master Fleet Sergeant is the rank given to senior NCOs of entire fleets or
subsectors.  There is one Sector Command Master Fleet Sergeant per sector,
and the Force Master Fleet Sergeant has his office on Capital. 

Enlisted Marines who make Corporal may apply to OCS.  This is the only path
to commission.  There are no Academy Marine officers.  A new officer can
expect his year as Force Ensign to be spent as a gopher for senior officers
as he learns the ropes of his new position.

An Enlisted Marine E-5 or above may request a bust of one rank and "Career"
status.  That marine has acknowledged he has been promoted beyond his
means, and wishes to freeze his rank at the one he just left.  Such a NCO
uses the word "Career" before his rank in most situations.  {example: "I am
Career Gunnery Sergeant Redding, and you now belong to me and the Emperor.
You had better pray he comes for you, because I will show you no mercy.")
If the Marine Force determines that the request is being made for any
reason other than a true devotion to duty, the petition will be denied and
the NCO will usually be separated.

Career NCO's are accorded extra respect for giving up advancement in order
to stay in the position where they can serve best.  In game terms, Career
NCOs should have a +1 Reputation (large group).

MARINE OPERATIONS

More than any other service, the Marines are dedicated to the raw
application of force.  Marines are not trained in the peacekeeping or
limited operations that the Army excels at.  When the Marines engage in
combat, their creed is to use the maximum amount force possible to
overwhelm and destroy the enemy in the minimal amount of time.  Marines are
infamous for using fusion weapons to destroy an entire building to root out
a single sniper.

The Marine Force's main job is to secure a foothold on hostile worlds.  To
this end, all Marines are trained in rapid interface techniques and
equipped with the absolute best the Imperium can give them.  The usual
target for the Marines is the world's starport, which coincidentally is
usually heavily equipped with ground to space defenses. 

Marines are also tasked to board vessels in deep space whenever called
upon.  This can be as simple as assisting in a deep space rescue or customs
inspection, or as difficult as boarding a crippled enemy warship against
armed opposition.  If there is any one mission the Marines dread, it is
fighting their way through the killing zones of an unfamiliar starship.

Outside of open warfare, the Marines still serve an important duty.  One of
the most visible Marine roles is their part in piracy suppression.  When a
pirate base or haven is located, the Marines will raid it to both insure
its destruction and to secure whatever intelligence might be found.
Imperial Intelligence has found that the personal nature of these actions
shocks the backers of the pirates, and can effectively scare the backers
into moving operations elsewhere.

Non-Fleet Marines play a variety of roles in the Imperial defense
establishment.  Marines are the Emperor's troops, and guard all Imperial
facilities.  The most visible of these guards are the  sophonts assigned to
guard Imperial consulates on member worlds.  These Marines are selected for
their appearance and poise, and serve as a daily reminder of the implied
force that the Imperium controls.

MARINE ARMORED CAVALRY REGIMENTS

The only truly heavy force in the Marine arsenal, Armored Cav regiments are
fairly rare.  The regulations call for one MarArmCav regiment for every
eight line regiments.  In effect there is one MarArmCav regiment for every
four subsectors.  These units are capable of devastating entire worlds, and
sit only one step below unrestricted orbital bombardment in the list of
options the Imperium has to a crisis.  

MarArmCavs are never committed without a clear, immediate threat that
warrants the Imperium releasing it's full power.  A MarArmCav requires
heavy support from the navy for transport and supply, and given the
Marines' "no holds barred" approach means whatever force is on the
receiving end of this force had better be prepared for a desperate fight.

A MarArmCav Regiment consists of a Headquarters company (70 men, 2 Intrepid
tanks, 4 Astrin APCs), three Armored Cavalry Battalions (165 men, 40
Intrepid tanks, 2 Astrin APCs), a Meson Artillery Section (70 men, 8 meson
sleds, 4 G-carriers)

MARINE TRADITIONS

The Imperial Marine Force traces it's roots to a detachment of Rule of Man
Marines stranded on Sylea at the beginning of the Long Night.  The RoM
Marines were in turn based on the assault troops of the Terran
Confederation.  These troops were drawn from several sources on Earth, most
notably organizations such as the United States Marine Corps, the Royal
Marines, and various airborne and special operations groups.  With such a
long history, the Marines have developed some unique and fiercely guarded
traditions.

Marines were a maroon beret.  This beret is only granted to a recruit after
he successfully completes rapid interface training, and is awarded in a
very solemn ceremony.  It is a point of pride for the Marines that incoming
Army troops should be greeted by Marines who have taken off their helmets
and donned the berets.  This is a subtle hint that the hard work has been
done, and that the Army is just coming in to "mop up."

Another tradition that the Marines have fought long and hard to retain is
the bagpipe.  Marine pipers have been around since the Sylean Marines were
founded, and it doesn't appear that the armor-rending wails will ever fade
from Marine lore.  One of the most coveted skill badges is Master Piper,
and a Marine lives his tour of duty hearing the pipes daily.

Some have theorized that the only reason the Marines cling to the pipes so
intensely is that the sound of bagpipes in a confined area like a starship
drives the Navy insane.  Whether or not this true, a Regimental band of
pipes and drums remains one of the Marines' best recruiting tools.

Strangely, the Marines have turned the pipes to their combat advantage.
While it is a myth that Marines land with a piper equipped with a
battle-dress mounted set of pipes, they have adapted the sound to an
effective psychological warfare tool.  Marine drop ships are equipped with
powerful radio jammers, and also drop electronic warfare pods that are
likewise intended to interfere with enemy communications and sensors.  The
Marines play prerecorded bagpipes with enough strength to drown out the
enemy's own transmissions.  The demoralizing effect of having your radio
channels suddenly flooded by "Sylea the Brave", along with the knowledge
that the music indicates that you will soon be dealing with the
overwhelming, merciless fire of a Marine unit, has caused more than one
defender to immediately surrender.

In defiance of their "spit and polish" image while drilling, the Marines
are notorious for covering their personal armor, equipment, and vehicles
with all sorts of graffiti.  Marines may scrawl commentary about the enemy,
outsized Imperial Sunbursts or regimental crests, or cartoons based on
perceived characteristics of vehicle commanders.  While officially frowned
on, this activity is tolerated due to the Marines' battlefield abilities.

One Marine tradition with roots strongly grounded in sound tactical
thinking is the cutlass.  Originally, the Marines retained the ancient
weapon merely as a symbol.  During the Chaestin War immediate preceding the
founding of the Imperium, the Sylean Marines found themselves called on to
board and capture disabled enemy vessels.  The powerful fusion weapons used
by the Marines tended to cause more damage than necessary, prompting Star
Sergeant J. Redding to begin carrying his dress cutlass into battle.  

The cutlass proved quite useful in breaching enemy vacc suits. Also, the
sight of a squad of Marines in battledress waving swords often proved to be
too much for the ship's crews, who would often surrender without a fight.

In honor of Star Sergeant Redding, all Marines learn basic swordplay as
part of their initial training.  Many Marines have gone on to win great
acclaim as fencers or duelists.

PLANETARY DEFENSE TROOPS

The largest arm of the Imperial ground forces triad is made up of the
individual armies of the member worlds.  Almost infinite in variety, these
forces provide the depth of defense that keeps the Imperium safe.

Each world of the Imperium is responsible for its own defense.  While the
Imperium will assist the member worlds, the final responsibility for a
government's survival rests with that government.  To that end, most worlds
raise at least a token force of armed troops.

On many worlds of the Core, these armies are little more than glorified
police forces.  With no strife since the Civil War, and the borders over a
year's travel away, these worlds have decided that there is little cause to
spend billions of Credits maintaining a force that will have few
responsibilities beyond keeping their weapons clean.  The closer you get to
the frontiers, the more interested planetary governments get in maintaining
an effective protection against outside aggressors.

On other planets with more repressive governments, there may exist large
forces mostly gear towards the suppression of internal dissent.  At the
most extreme, these forces can act as an occupying force in their own
homeland.

It should be stressed that local forces are completely independent of the
Imperial chain of command.  They answer only to their governments.  This
freedom also means that these armies are able to procure equipment to their
own standards, rather than using the Imperial standard.

Local defense forces, also called PDF (Planetary Defense Forces), are
divided in three broad categories.

GROUND FORCES

PDF Ground Forces are similar in concept to the Imperial Army, but
specialized for local conditions and technology.  Freed of the need to
travel far from their home world, these forces can use levels of
mechanization that most Imperial planners can only dream of.

Since the implied mission of a PDF unit is defensive in nature, planners
tend to stock up on the items that will help them hold off a besieging
force.  Vast stocks of artillery ammo, along with extensive spare part and
fuel depots are usually foremost in priority.  

An exception to this rule is balkanized worlds, where the various
nation-states will be arming not just for defense, but possible against
each other.  These worlds have a history of engaging in conventional arms
races of almost suicidal proportions, since they know that the Imperium
stands ready to intervene if things get out of hand.

PDF ground forces are the last place a traveller is likely to see tracked
vehicles used in any front-line role.  Jewell (Spinward Marches/Jewell) is
notable for equipping it's PDF with tracked and wheeled vehicles.  A desire
to keep cost low, along with the cluttered nature of Jewell's cities, make
these vehicles effective even against modern grav tanks.

Local forces in the Imperium use a bewildering number of organizational
plans and formats.  Almost any imaginable plan, no matter how crazy, has
been tried on at least one world.  It's not uncommon to encounter units
with titles like Legion, Cohort, Band, or anything else from human history.

NAUTICAL FORCE COMMAND

Also known as the "wet navy," the NFC is found on worlds with significant
oceans.  Often an addition to the ground forces, the NFC is strongest on
balkanized worlds of moderate technology (tech 6-9) with more than fifty
percent hydrosphere.  In these situations, the wet navy can become the
dominant military force on a world or in a nation.

Wet Navies are rarely much more than glorified search and rescue
operations. Once grav vehicles become common, the need for massive warships
fades.  The height of naval technology is seen at TL 8.

Since water interferes with most sensors, the Nautical Force Command
becomes a convenient hiding place for planetary defense weapons such as
meson-equipped submarines or secret supply depots for system defense boats
on the ocean floor.  An Earthlike world with large oceans can hide any
number of surprises for an invader.

Of all the PDF forces, the Wet Navy tends to be the most tradition bound.
For many races, the first truly organized military effort was the navy, so
the sense of history is strong for these sailors.

CLOSE ORBIT AND AEROSPACE CONTROL COMMAND

The third leg of the PDF triad is COACC.  This branch is responsible for
the defense of the world's airspace, from ground level to geosynchronous
orbit.  They also have responsibility for defense of any in-system assets
such as gas giants or secondary settlements on other worlds.  In many
systems, COACC is responsible for carrying out custom inspections and also
serves as a rescue service.  

There is considerable debate in the Imperium over the viability of
atmospheric fighters.  Many feel them to be anachronisms, without purpose
against fighter craft designed for the rigors of space combat.  The other
school holds that vehicles built explicitly for air to air combat hold a
great advantage over more general purpose interface vehicles.  Both sides
in the debate can point to various battles that seem to give support to
their views.

Many worlds without real navies of their own give COACC operation of the
system defense boats.  This allows a planet to have a consistent defense
structure from deep space to the planet's surface.  The majority of worlds
that can afford SDB's prefer to organize them as a separate service.

On balkanized worlds, the various national COACCs (more often called "Air
Forces") can field a wide variety of different purpose built bombers, recon
craft, and fighters.  On single government worlds, where the mission is
defense, the most common vehicle seen is the hypersonic interceptor.

COLONIAL FORCES

In times of great peril, such as a major war, planetary forces may be
volunteered for Imperial service.  Such forces are referred to as "Colonial
Units," and are generally considered to be of a lesser quality than
front-line troops.  Regardless, these troops can take a great deal of
pressure of harried commanders by assuming garrison and security roles,
freeing up units for the front lines.  Since these are not Imperial units,
their equipment and training can vary wildly, making it hazardous to mix
them with Imperial units.  During the 5th Frontier War, there was one
recorded case of an Imperial Marine point-defense system firing on
approaching colonials because their non-standard G-carriers were not in the
fire control computer's memory.



- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 16:33:32
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Apology

Sorry for sending that essay twice, my mail program didn't kill the firstr
sending when I told it to.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 19:40:35 -0400
From: "C. Michael (Swordy)" <swordworlder@clinic.net>
Subject: Re: Alien Life

- ----- Original Message -----
From: John R. Snead <jsnead@netcom.com>
> I beg to differ here.  We have no info on sentient life, the galaxy may be
> teeming with it, or we may be the only one.  However, life seems to have
> evolved on Earth shortly after it cooled. The chemicals of life (amino
> acids...) are found in interstellar gas clouds throughout the universe,
> and Mars may well have once had life.  All that adds up to a strong
> likelihood that life is found everywhere it can possibly evolve.

Finding amino acids is but one tiny part of the problem.  Now find twenty
specific ones, all left-handed, and assemble them into usable chains to make
a valuable protein without destroying your building blocks.  Now do it a
thousand times in the thousand different configurations that will fit
together perfectly to may one usable cell.  The odds turn out to be greater
than 20^100 against*.  Not too promising.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
The TRAVELLER Domain
http://www.downport.com
Colin Michael, Webslinger

*http://downport.com/ct/crs/research.html

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 16:42:42
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: re : Imperial Marines

At 08:55 AM 6/27/99 +1100, you wrote:

>Secondly, I'm not that certain that the Imperium would train it's best
>instrument only in 'shock' missions. Crushing the revolt is the simple bit.
>The problem is to prevent a long-term problem developing.

That's what the diplomats and nobility are for.  Think of the Marines as
the tools of last resort, sort of like nuclear weapons during the Cold War.
 The threat of having the Marines come down on you can be very persuasive.

>The other issue to remember is that most Imperial wars have been fought
>within it's own territory - a doctrine that accepts destroying planets in
>order to save them would have some issues with the more liberal nobility.

Think of the Sovier response to the German invasion. Scorched Earth worked
well enough.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 18:50:30 -0500
From: "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines 

IOW, (and ignoring your well thought out Marine structure later in this 
digest...) you see a similar model to that of the Marines vs Army of the
Pacific theater in WWII? As in, in some of the cases, the marines made the
beachhead possible and the army fought out to the end?

(snip)
> It's a tortoise/hare situation.  The Marines are great in the short dash of
> rapid, intense combat, while the Army has the ponderous weight to grind
> opponents down over the long run.
> - --
>
> Doug Berry
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
>
> ------------------------------

William

- --
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
road and may God's blessing be with           |
you always.                                   |
St. Claire                                    |

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 18:00:50 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

>Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 15:41:22
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Marines
>
>At 12:00 PM 6/26/99 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Counter-insurgency is what we were doing in Vietnam, which as any one who
>was there (or studied it at all), was a full blown war vs. a wily foe.
>Perhaps the Major was involved with a Mike Force operation, or since it was
>specified as auxiliaries, perhaps he was working with a group of locally
>raised troops as a cadre.  marine leadership training is very good.

None of which requires battledress, which was my point. 

I have done my fair share of peacekeeping/LIC/security-and-stability
operations, including writing the exit strategy for US Forces-Haiti. There
are many times when armored force -- be it M1's, armored HMMWV's, or
battledress -- is the only way to go, but there are many more where it is
simply counter-productive to put that much firepower on the line. Maintain
the threat, yes -- but in reserve, behind a screen of regular troops who
can actually talk to people and just maybe understand what is really going on.

[Vietnam arguably *was* a full-blown war, certainly in its latter stages,
that was wished away as a "counter-insurgency" the way Korea was a "police
action". A better model to consider would be the Marine interventions in
Haiti and Nicaragua earlier this century, the Moro uprising in the
Philippines, or the US-UN operations since 1991.]

>Exactly!  The Marines carry a very small transportation cost.. they are
>very light, and can be shipped to a trouble spot far more quickly than the
>Army.  If it looks like a long haul, you start bring in the Army who are
>optimized for long, drawn out campaigns.
>
>It's a tortoise/hare situation.  The Marines are great in the short dash of
>rapid, intense combat, while the Army has the ponderous weight to grind
>opponents down over the long run.

You must also consider that if you use it, it will break -- even in the
Imperium. Battledress units are tremendously logistics-intensive compared
to light infantry, and the Imperial Marines routinely operate far from
their support infrastructure. They would stand down to the lowest level
consistent with the threat, lest the hare become mired in his own baggage,
or worse not be able to recover in time to meet a real threat.

I'll take a look at the proposal and get back to you offline. You might
want to check with John Trasler <trasler@trasler.demon.co.uk> for what he's
said about the Imperial Marines in the GT: Imperial Navy draft.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 10:06:13 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

>Counter-insurgency is what we were doing in Vietnam, which as any one who
>was there (or studied it at all), was a full blown war vs. a wily foe.
>Perhaps the Major was involved with a Mike Force operation, or since it was
>specified as auxiliaries, perhaps he was working with a group of locally
>raised troops as a cadre.  marine leadership training is very good.

I dont want to start a Vietnam flamewar, on the grounds there is enough
shit to stick to everyone in that fiasco, but I think part of the problem
was that it was a war that was partly conventional action (Kontum, Khe Sanh
or Tet), partly terrorism and counterterrorism (Saigon except for Tet and
just at the end), part insurgency ('routine' ambushes and closing of
roads), partly diplomatic (attempts to get the allies of each side
involved/uninvolved, or avoid the same), and partly political (the various
coups, countercoups, the various Buddhist Crises etc).

One problem was that these were occouring simultaneously in time, and
sometimes simultaneously in space.

Given that the US Army was only doctrinally equipped to do the first and a
little bit of the third, and kept working at cross-purposes to the various
orginisations trying to do the other parts, then it wasnt really surprising
to me that bad things kept happening to them.

Where this cuts back to the Imperium is that most internal wars and revolts
will be such a complex mixture. To complicate things further, 'the
Imperium' doesnt really operate as an entity in most Imperial
entanglements, as it is a government of Men, not Laws.

For example, let us assume we have an internal revolt on a world. The
world's government have annoyed certain elements of the Imperial power
structure, and those elements want to show their displeasure without
actually intervening.

The solution is to invite the rebel leader to a dinner party at the
Marquis', which will indicate to the government's outside supporters that
the rebels too have powerful off-world friends. Now, the problem with this
is Che is holed up in the mountains, surrounded by government troops and
cant RSVP.

Therefore, the Marquis asks his friend the Admiral if he could arrange for
an invitation to be hand delivered - both sides are careful to allow enough
room for confusion to enter, in order to ensure deniability later.

The Admiral therefore issues a set of suitably confused and contradictory
instructions to his subordinates. His subordinates, treading a careful path
between doing what he wants and not being so impolite as to ask directly as
what he wants, detail a squad to get onto the world, find the rebel leader,
and give him this package, then get either a receipt for it or him and get
out.

It's a black mission, so the whole thing is deniable. Your records will
indicate you never left. You have 28 days.

And God thinks this one's important.

Ian Whitchurch

PS Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Scouts would usually do this. Unfortunatly, they
are on the other side in this little to-do. 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #774
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 27 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 775



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Marines 
Re: Imperial Marines
Naked Marines (was re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)
re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
PBEM Opening
Re: Imperial Marines
FFS2 spreadsheets for Gnumeric ?
Re: My take on the Army and Marines 
Re: Imperial Marines
re: Alien Life
Re: TLs of Star Wars and Star Trek
Re: Alien Life
Re: Alien Life
RE: FFS2 spreadsheets for Gnumeric ?
Dark Nebula
Re: FFS2 spreadsheets for Gnumeric ? 
re: Dark Nebula
Re: Dark Nebula
Re: Alien Life
Montrose's Toast
Re: Imperial Marines 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 19:20:18 -0500
From: "William Barnett-Lewis" <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines 

> 
> Ian Whitchurch
> 
> PS Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Scouts would usually do this. Unfortunatly, they
> are on the other side in this little to-do.
>

Damn right we are.

Er. opps. Not supposed to admit that, am I?

William
- --
Live without fear; your Creator loves you     | William Barnett-Lewis
as a mother. Go in peace to follow the good   | mailto://wlewis@mailbag.com
road and may God's blessing be with           |
you always.                                   |
St. Claire                                    |

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 19:40:14 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

William Barnett-Lewis wrote:
> 
> IOW, (and ignoring your well thought out Marine structure later in this
> digest...) you see a similar model to that of the Marines vs Army of the
> Pacific theater in WWII? As in, in some of the cases, the marines made the
> beachhead possible and the army fought out to the end?

This model also explains why the Imperial Army maintains its own "forced
entry" units.  As I see it, there are four paradigma for forced-entry
operations (as experienced by US forces in the Pacific during WW II):

1.  Marines seize the terrain in question.  Examples would be Tarawa and
Iwo Jima.  Here, the USMC took all the terrain, with Army participation
(if any; my ready-to-hand history references mention none) pretty well
limited to garrisoning the land in question.

2.  Marines seize a beachhead, and are relieved by the Army prior to the
final conquest.  Guadalcanal falls under this category.  The island was
by no means secure when 1st MarDiv departed, but the soldiers of the
"Americal" division came ashore (several months after 1st MarDiv hit the
beach) unopposed, and finished the job of securing Guadalcanal.

3.  Army forces seize and expand a beachhead, without Marine
assistance.  The reconquest of the Philippines falls under this heading,
as did the New Guinea campaign.  This category provides the Army with
the justification of maintaining its own forced-entry-capable units.

4.  Army and Marine forces conduct simultaneous forced-entry operations,
on different parts of the objective.  Okinawa is the best example of
this, where the Marines landed in the north, and the Army landed in the
south.  A Traveller equivalent would be the invasion of Terra during the
Solomani Rim War.  Without the Imperial Army forced-entry operations,
the Marines could not, by themselves, have secured enough territory for
follow-on reinforcements to land.

<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 20:45:28 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Naked Marines (was re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)

Douglas Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
In the character template I'm doing for Imperial Marines (part of my work
for the G:T Ground Forces book, which I hope to be writing), I'm having a
hard time justifying given many traditional infantry skills to the Marines.
 These guys fight in Battle dress, and would probably only learn to fire a
rifle as sort a precursor to the *real* training.  A Marine out of his
armor might even have Combat Paralysis from being "naked" when combat
breaks out.  He's seen what happens to unarmored bodies.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Do Marines always fight in Battle Dress? I know they'd *prefer* to have
their personal superhero suit on every time things get bad, but won't there
be occaisions where the fight shows up and they aren't dressed for it?

I especially expect Marines to train for unarmored (or lightly-armored) 
action if the armor has a high maintenance time compared to active
time, or a cost high enough that every marine doesn't get a set unless
they're the Drop Commandoes.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 20:57:10 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

Black Ice wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
> Nature of film/TV.  Realistic infantry combat would involve a flurry of
> shots, each side throwing smoke, and calling in artillery.

Quite true, especially your last point (calling for artillery).  IMHO,
anyone who, given choices of Traveller skills, generates a combat-arms
character (rank E5 or above) without Forward Observer skill is
criminally negilgent.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
I was reading Jim Dugan's _How to Make War_ a few nights ago. He
presented the statistic that more than 50% of the battlefield casualties 
inflicted during World War 2 were caused by artillery fire. In the North
African theater, where more open and flattish terrain existed, the
percentage of casualties from artillery was more like 75%.

He also presented a case that most of the rifles in an infantry company
were pretty much ineffective at causing casualties - the vast majority of 
casualties inflicted by an infantry company came from their machine guns 
and other special equipment.

Guns don't kill people. Heavy weapons kill people.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 22:09:42 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: PBEM Opening

        I am getting my TNEC PBEM game back on track and have had two
players suffer a more prolonged attack of RealLife(tm) than I did.  So, I
have two more openings in my game for anyone interested.

        Check my website (URL in sig), hit the "TNEC Info" button and check
the game "Saviour's Race".  The two characters up for grabs are status
"Available".  E-Mail me directly with your preference...  first come first
served/

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 19:15:18 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 10:06:13 +1100
>From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Marines
>
>For example, let us assume we have an internal revolt on a world....
>It's a black mission, so the whole thing is deniable. Your records will
>indicate you never left. You have 28 days.
>
>And God thinks this one's important.
>
>Ian Whitchurch
>
>PS Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Scouts would usually do this. Unfortunatly, they
>are on the other side in this little to-do. 

Bravo! Hear, hear! Perfect -- and my players won't know what hit them. When
did you say your proposal for GT: Imperial Nobles was due? ;-)

[I concur with your assessment of Vietnam as well, by and large.]

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 11:37:22 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: FFS2 spreadsheets for Gnumeric ?

OK, I'm in the progress of upgradng from Win 3.11 to Linux.

I've got the Gnumeric GNU spreadsheet up and running ... has anyone ported
Andy Atkins' FFS2 spreadsheet to Gnumeric ? Would this be possible ?

I'm hoping someone with VMWare could just cut and paste it, but this may or
may not be possible.

If it cant be done, I'll probably slowly start building a FFS2 spreadsheet
in Gnumeric.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 11:19:54 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: My take on the Army and Marines 

> From: "Douglas E. Berry" 
> NAUTICAL FORCE COMMAND
> 
> Also known as the "wet navy," the NFC is found on worlds with significant
> oceans.  Often an addition to the ground forces, the NFC is strongest on
> balkanized worlds of moderate technology (tech 6-9) with more than fifty
> percent hydrosphere.  In these situations, the wet navy can become the
> dominant military force on a world or in a nation.

I suspect this would still be the case at higher tech levels if Hydro
percentages over ~95%, or if lots of the population are water dwelling
species.  Of course, at this point it will be as 'triphibian' as anyone
else, but it's 'natural habitat' would still be water.

> Wet Navies are rarely much more than glorified search and rescue
> operations. Once grav vehicles become common, the need for massive
warships
> fades.  The height of naval technology is seen at TL 8.

At high TLs 'ships' (submarines) merge with spacecraft (SDBs), and 'boats'
with grav vehicles (tanks, APCs, artillery sleds).  On a personal level,
wet navy personnel are likely to be trained in the use of Protected Forces
equipment like Battle Dress and Battle Pods, the latter being particularly
likely in deep, high-pressure environments, or when the species using them
don't actually have legs!

> Since water interferes with most sensors, the Nautical Force Command
> becomes a convenient hiding place for planetary defense weapons such as
> meson-equipped submarines or secret supply depots for system defense
boats
> on the ocean floor.  An Earthlike world with large oceans can hide any
> number of surprises for an invader.

Like a whole other army besides the one above the surface.

In addition, economically and strategically important installations,
including entire cities, can be found on ocean bottoms.

The interference with sensors tends to imply a certain need for specialised
units to operate in nautical environments.  They would of course also need
to be able to operate outside the water as well.

IMHO, the Wet Navy would survive as a mix of specialised underwater units,
as well as relatively conventional units with 'wet' traditions.  They would
tend towards being a mix of Protected Forces trained lift infantry and
cavalry units, as well as artillery, engineers and so on.  They may even
operate some SDBs and other planetary defence units!  They would have a
distinct advantage in training, and a relative one in equipment, over
standard units in a maritime environment, and would be quite capable in a
'normal' environment (being grav equipped).

They would regularly spend time in inhospitable places - like the bottom of
the Marianas Trench - and would very possibly consider themselves an elite
force.

And in a campaign, they will be the ones that appear out of nowhere, and
'hit the beaches' while your sensors are scanning the sky...

> Of all the PDF forces, the Wet Navy tends to be the most tradition bound.
> For many races, the first truly organized military effort was the navy,
so
> the sense of history is strong for these sailors.

Yep.  And if you ignore them, they'll kick your a**.

Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 22:03:50 EDT
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

In a message dated 6/27/99 1:18:07 AM !!!First Boot!!!, thrash@io.com writes:

<< For example, let us assume we have an internal revolt on a world....
 >It's a black mission, so the whole thing is deniable. Your records will
 >indicate you never left. You have 28 days.
 >
 >And God thinks this one's important.
 >
 >Ian Whitchurch
 >
 >PS Yeah, yeah, yeah, the Scouts would usually do this. Unfortunatly, they
 >are on the other side in this little to-do.  >>

What a charlie-foxtrot....You're the REAL Dr. Evil...:-). I'm stealing this 
one for an adventure nugget...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 22:40:43 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Alien Life

C. Michael wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Finding amino acids is but one tiny part of the problem.  Now find twenty
specific ones, all left-handed, and assemble them into usable chains to make
a valuable protein without destroying your building blocks.  Now do it a
thousand times in the thousand different configurations that will fit
together perfectly to may one usable cell.  The odds turn out to be greater
than 20^100 against*.  Not too promising.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Depends on how you work your probabilities. Is there a characteristic
of amino acids that gives them a tendency to form useful proto-protien
assemblies? Life is seen to be self-organizing to a great extent, it's
possible that this self-organizational tendency occurs further down 
the developmental chain than what we call "life".

I've even seen some work on proto-life chemical reaction chains, 
chains that were self-sustaining, relatively self-stablizing, competitive
and quite complex. These chains may have arisin by themselves in
the pre-life chemical goop of Earth, and in localized protected
environments (deep earth rock strata?) may have led to true lifeforms.
All it takes is one chemical reaction developing a film that allows it to
keep it's catalysts to itself... 

We have seen life occur on one world, proving that it is *possible*. 
It's even possible that this life is based on chemicals (even lifeforms!)
that came from other worlds - in that case, whatever brought these
"seeds" to Earth may have brought them to thousands or millions of 
other planets.

We have insufficient evidence to say that Earth is a special case.
When you say the chances are 20^100 against, you're making
assumptions that can't be checked until we consistently *don't*
find life elsewhere.

Walt Smith
.still wondering where all those alien sitcoms are...

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 23:14:04 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: TLs of Star Wars and Star Trek

- -----Original Message-----
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Saturday, June 26, 1999 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: TLs of Star Wars and Star Trek


>But you're right, a movie like SW with the realism of SPR would be
>different... and probably not go over too well with a lot of people.


I think it depends. Verhoeven, for example, always uses a goodly amount of
gore. Granted, it's not the intensity of Saving Private Ryan. The intensity
in the film came mostly from the audience's knowledge that stuff like that
really did happen.

When the audience sees the mutilated members of the devestated Mormon colony
in Starship Troopers, or sees the bad guys messily gun down civilians on the
escalator in Total Recall, there's a certain distance for the audience.

Of course, there's the third point: big and well-respected directors like
Spielberg don't usually use massive amounts of visceral gore as a tool in
their films, so when it is seen, it adds much to the shock value of it.

>ObTrav: how realistic is the violence in multimedia entertainment in
>the 3I? How *violent* is it? Or does it vary from place to place?


It's a tough call. "Realistic violence" doesn't have to necessarily be what
people think of as violent at all. For example, the sequence in Unforgiven
where one of the "bad guys" gets shot in the belly with the rifle. The scene
was realistic, but it wasn't particularly violent.

However, I think that the violence in multimedia entertainment will vary
from place to place. The Imperium is built on trade, not on censorship. The
Imperium doesn't tend to meddle in the affairs of individual member worlds.
I think it would be up to specific worlds to decide what their citizens are
allowed to see.

I think that some entertainment would be violent, some entertainment
wouldn't be. In the Third Imperium there are potential markets for every
product... somewhere. In fact, violent media might be used in ways we
haven't imagined yet:

Imagine a world that staurates its population with extremely realistic
violent imagery... in order to cultivate the message that violence is bad.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 23:22:59 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Alien Life

In a message dated 6/26/99 7:42:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
swordworlder@clinic.net writes:

> Finding amino acids is but one tiny part of the problem.  Now find twenty
>  specific ones, all left-handed, and assemble them into usable chains to 
make
>  a valuable protein without destroying your building blocks.  Now do it a
>  thousand times in the thousand different configurations that will fit
>  together perfectly to may one usable cell.  The odds turn out to be greater
>  than 20^100 against*.  Not too promising.

Sounds like a creationist argument to me.

Usually when I hear this argument the creationist is trying to demonstrate
how absurd it is to believe that even a single cell could somehow fall 
together
all at once and from scratch, as a result of purely random processes.  Yes,
it would be absurd to believe that could happen, but to the best of my
knowledge no serious biologist does believe it.  Straw men are easy to
knock down.

Evolution doesn't just operate by chance, it saves intermediate results and
builds on them.

Try the "Yahtzee" experiment sometime.  Take five six-siders, roll all five of
them repeatedly, and count how many times you have to roll before you get
five of a kind.  It takes a *long* time.

Now start rolling again, but this time do what any Yahtzee player would do.
As soon as you get two or more of a kind, set them aside and start trying to
match that number with the remaining dice.  Once any die matches, set it
aside too.  See how long it takes you to reach five of a kind this time.  I
guarantee it will reliably take a small fraction of the time it took in the 
first
experiment.

The difference is more striking when you start with a larger set of dice.

ObTrav: Has anyone actually done any statistical studies of how likely an
Earthlike world is using the CT world-building system?  I wonder what the
Drake equation looks like for the Third Imperium. . .

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 23:33:50 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Alien Life

- -----Original Message-----
From: C. Michael (Swordy) <swordworlder@clinic.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Saturday, June 26, 1999 7:41 PM
Subject: Re: Alien Life


>Finding amino acids is but one tiny part of the problem.  Now find twenty
>specific ones, all left-handed, and assemble them into usable chains to
make
>a valuable protein without destroying your building blocks.  Now do it a
>thousand times in the thousand different configurations that will fit
>together perfectly to may one usable cell.  The odds turn out to be greater
>than 20^100 against*.  Not too promising.


Don't place too much faith in odds... as any bookmaker will tell you ;)

Anyone can stack odds and numbers to make something look more or less
probable. Frankly, I don't know enough about the subject to really argue it.
However, I'd be willing to bet I could find someone who wrote a paper that
says that the odds are better than anyone had previously expected.

Until we actually really get down on planets and look, we really won't know.
Anyone who professes to have solid knowledge either way is suspect, at least
in my opinion.

Yes, we *can* make educated guesses. It's true. No matter how educated the
guesses are, educated still simply qualifies guess.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 21:01:12 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: FFS2 spreadsheets for Gnumeric ?

>>>>Severely TIC<<<<
There's still machines out there with Win 3.x?  I had no idea....

Sorry, couldn't help it :)

Best,
Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Ian or Katts
> Sent: Saturday, June 26, 1999 5:37 PM
> To: traveller@mpgn.com
> Subject: FFS2 spreadsheets for Gnumeric ?
>
>
>
> OK, I'm in the progress of upgradng from Win 3.11 to Linux.
>
> I've got the Gnumeric GNU spreadsheet up and running ... has anyone ported
> Andy Atkins' FFS2 spreadsheet to Gnumeric ? Would this be possible ?
>
> I'm hoping someone with VMWare could just cut and paste it, but
> this may or
> may not be possible.
>
> If it cant be done, I'll probably slowly start building a FFS2 spreadsheet
> in Gnumeric.
>
> Ian Whitchurch
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 23:52:39 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Dark Nebula

I'm currently cruising eBay to collect various out-of-print Traveller
materials that deal with the Solomani Rim and the history of the
Solomani Confederation.  Basically I'm trying to flesh out my
collection of research material on the Solomani.

Right now there's a copy of "Dark Nebula" up for sale.  This is one
I've never seen or even heard of before now. . .

Can anyone give me a capsule review?  In particular, does the
game contain any interesting canonical information on Solomani
history that I might be able to put to use?

Jon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 23:53:38 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: FFS2 spreadsheets for Gnumeric ? 

> >>>>Severely TIC<<<<
> > OK, I'm in the progress of upgradng from Win 3.11 to Linux.
> >
> > I've got the Gnumeric GNU spreadsheet up and running ... has anyone ported
> > Andy Atkins' FFS2 spreadsheet to Gnumeric ? Would this be possible ?
> >
> > I'm hoping someone with VMWare could just cut and paste it, but
> > this may or
> > may not be possible.
> >
> > If it cant be done, I'll probably slowly start building a FFS2 spreadsheet
> > in Gnumeric.
> 
> >>>>Severely TIC<<<<
> There's still machines out there with Win 3.x?  I had no idea....
> 
> Sorry, couldn't help it :)

Yeah, there are.  They still work ok, except getting apps for them is a 
bitch.  Gnumeric is a Linux spreadsheet though.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 00:03:01 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Dark Nebula

Jon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm currently cruising eBay to collect various out-of-print Traveller
materials that deal with the Solomani Rim and the history of the
Solomani Confederation.  Basically I'm trying to flesh out my
collection of research material on the Solomani.

Right now there's a copy of "Dark Nebula" up for sale.  This is one
I've never seen or even heard of before now. . .

Can anyone give me a capsule review?  In particular, does the
game contain any interesting canonical information on Solomani
history that I might be able to put to use?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Canonical info or Solomani history is almost zip in this item. It's a game,
somewhat akin to Imperium, but with a map made up of subsectors you
can swap around with each other (and are supposed to for game
variety). Aslan vs Solomani, but so generic about ships and planets so
as to give no historical info.

The game is fun, but nowhere near as good a game as Imperium (which
uses a similar system to portray the 1st through Nth Interstellar Wars).

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 00:18:43 EDT
From: KenRoney@aol.com
Subject: Re: Dark Nebula

Dark Nebula cam out after Imperium, apparently in response to the problem 
that Imperium could take quite a while to play out to a definite outcome.  DN 
is sort of a condensed version of Imperium revolving around initial 
hostilities between the Aslan and Solomani.  Like Imperium it utilizes 
counters representing comabt vessels and ground forces.  I liked it for 
several reasons.
1)  The scale of the game is small, so you can set it up and play it quickly.
2)  The map is composed of eight sub-maps, which the players lay out in 
various patterns prior to play.  The astrography changes every game.
3)  It includes limited economics and diplomacy.
4)  It has some nice chrome, particularly the "Dark Nebula" of the title.  
This is an uncharted region that the players can explore in hopes of 
discovering a variety of possible advantages.
As to solid canon information, it's a little weak.  My copy just had a short 
blurb to explain who was fighting whom.  Still, I can recommend it if they 
aren't asking a premium price for it.

Ken

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 00:28:13 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: Alien Life

At 11:22 PM 6/26/99 -0400, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
>In a message dated 6/26/99 7:42:04 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
>swordworlder@clinic.net writes:
>>  together perfectly to may one usable cell.  The odds turn out to be greater
>>  than 20^100 against*.  Not too promising.

Just to throw in my .02 cr.: 
Didn't they find microscopic life on Mars? Or was this a dream I had? 

>
>ObTrav: Has anyone actually done any statistical studies of how likely an
>Earthlike world is using the CT world-building system?  I wonder what the
>Drake equation looks like for the Third Imperium. . .

No statistical studies, but I am building a program based on Book 6 and
http://ouray.cudenver.edu/~lwlguatn/SF/egs.html (Extended System
Generation) because I want everything in MTU to be as realistic as I can
make it. (In other words, I threw out the whole campaign I had generated
and am making up some new rules. Oh well. I will look back with
satisfaction, I am sure. <grimace>)



- -- 
IMTU:  tc++ tm- ?tn ?t4> ?t5>++ tg- ru ge+(++) !3i() c+>- st he+
       so++ vi-- va-   (Rob Brady: robb at datatone dot com)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 23:48:31 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Montrose's Toast

Gentlebeings!  [taps glass thrice with a spoon]

For anyone running a military-based campaign, I remind you of Montrose's
Toast:

"He either fears his fates too much, or his desserts are small, who
dares not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all."

ObTrav:  The current thread concerning the Imperial Marines inspired my
posting of this toast.  Additionally, long-standing units of the
Imperial Army and Marines would have their own traditional toasts and
ceremonies.  "Prop Blast", anyone?

For instance, IMTU, in the 1199th Jump Infantry Regiment, part of
initial drop qualification with the unit (regardless of one's drop-troop
training documentation) is a "Hell on a half-shell" drop (i.e., ablative
reentry kits in place of the normal drop capsule).

You have to admit, toasts and traditions such as this add an authentic
martial flavor to a campaign.

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 14:56:21 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines 

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Saturday, June 26, 1999 12:43 PM
Subject: Imperial Marines (was: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)



>
> I will have to disagree here.  Several points.
>
> Number 1. Not every use of marines will involve
> battle dress. In less dangerous environs, the marines will be armed
> with lesser weapons and in body armor. Not every job for them will
> be one that combat is expected. They had best be able to handle
> trouble in that state.
>
> Number 2. The battle dress is expensive. Perhaps only some of the
> contingent of marines in a garrison will have battledress.
>
> Number 3. In a safe zone, marines could be attacked by surprise.
> It would look really bad for the Emperor's best to be trashed by
> some unarmored schmucks.
>
> I have served in the airborne. So my viewpoint is colored by what
> I know. That may not be the same view that others have.
>

I'd tend to agree.  I can't see an IM so drilled in the use of BD that he
rolls out of bed in the middle of the night to have a slash (pee, wee, whiz,
et al.), thinking "Must put on Battle Dress... Must put on Battle Dress..."

And economics do play a part in every military budget, and I imagine the
IM's being no different?  In a perfect universe, perhaps...

I still think an IM would work off a warrior code, such as
defending/attacking/killing under ANY situation, fully equipped or not, is
the military norm.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #775
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com

Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 27 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 776



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Imperial Marine Battledress/Potty-Training Issues
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: FTL == time travel
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re Marines
Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)
Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Alien Life

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 00:11:16 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Imperial Marine Battledress/Potty-Training Issues

The Roc wrote:

<<snip>>
> 
> I'd tend to agree [with summary: Marines would have non-battledress missions].
> I can't see an IM so drilled in the use of BD that he
> rolls out of bed in the middle of the night to have a slash (pee, wee, whiz,
> et al.), thinking "Must put on Battle Dress... Must put on Battle Dress..."

Of _course_ not!  After all, a Marine _that_ accustomed to battledress
would not even stir to relieve him/her/itself; the catheter (or
equivalent) that is part of battledress would be second nature.  (Note: 
add "Incontinence" [at reduced cost; only applies when battledress is
not available in a combat situation] to the list of disadvantages
available to Marine templates....)

<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 15:29:23 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Friday, June 25, 1999 9:51 PM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines (was: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)


I'm probably going to get one of those micronukes as a flame for this, but I
probably deserve it... but this is how "I" see it, sorry for any offence.

>
> In short the Imperial Marine Force is the ultimate level of Imperial
> intervention.  When they come in, just their presence can stop rebellions
> in their tracts.
>
> One of the sidebars I've composed has a Marine fire team popping a
> micronuke on a single sniper.. an observer in the command craft wonders
why
> the excessive firepower was used, when the rifle the sniper had couldn't
> even scar the Marine armor.
>
> The Force Ensign in charge explained that the witnesses to the event would
> tell everyone that not only is resistance futile, but extremely deadly to
> boot, and that the Marines will be able to mop up without having to
inflict
> massive casualties.
>

I kind of find this as something straight out of a comic book (I'm not a big
comic fan you may gather).  It really doesn't sound realistic to me... I
could be wrong however, I know other's won't agree with me.

>
> When not on combat deployments, they wear some sort of utility/fatigue
> uniform.
>
> The Imperium can easily afford to equip the 5000 or so Marines in each
> subsector.  Assume that Marine Assault BD costs about Cr. 500,00 with
> weapons.  That's 2.5 billion credits per subsector.  Easily raised by the
> Imperium.
>

To me, this gets back to the perfect universe, throwing out all those
adventure seeds about corrupt officials or the syphoning of funds for one
project to boost another, less palatable project.  Why?  Because the money
always gets through to where it is going and therefore, no corruption in
that regard... a perfect universe?

Money is always an issue with governments, sure they can raise 2.5 bill (and
that's just for BD), but do they spend it all on what's needed? ("Well, we
can trim off .5 of a bill from the defence BD budget to get your office
redecorated Senator Extravegance?").


>
> That's why they are used only as assault troops.  Army troops do the
> consolidation thing.
>

I'm sure that in WWII, US Marines were used as plain old grunts at times
(not purely for beach assaults and such -- as storm troopers), who spent
weeks/months trudging through swamps and jungles clearing out enemy pockets
of resistance.  I don't see the IM's doing the assault thing then saying,
"It's knock-off time... where's the army?"

> They do have weapons for self defense, but they don't train in combat ops
> the way the Army does.  Think of them as tankers.. they are lost outside
> their vehicles, with minimal training on what to do if their vehicle is
> disabled.
>

I know some turretheads that would stoutly disagree with you here.  History
also shows that vehicle crews who have lost their vehicles were quite
capable of taking up a small arm and fighting alongside the grunts.  Tobrok
was just one example, when the city was under seige, vehicle crews defended
on foot after losing their vehicles or running out of ammo for them.  I
personally think you are selling IM's short.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 22:53:55 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

>	Dr. Gould is an entertaining and informed writer, and
>	his points are well made. I would argue, however, that
>	while life would look quite different if we "ran" our
>	evolutionary history again, there are some traits that
>	have evolved independantly more than once.

I remember reading an article in an Encyclopedia Britannica yearbook about
evolved traits. The author identified several traits that evolved
independently in several different species, which he called "universals",
and traits that appeared only once in the evolutionary record. I forget
what he called these other specific traits. The point was that some traits
are so useful they become dominant in every species that develops them
while others, though they may be useful, do not have an overwhelming
advantage.

The interesting part is where he listed several universal and specific
traits. Universals included things like specialized tissues, vision,
flight, and intelligence. He claimed there is something so advantageous in
these traits that they reappear over and over.

Specific traits included things like bone and crossed breathing/digestive
passages. Though vertibrates are common, they all descended from a common
ancestor and bones were never developed in any other evolutionary line.
There were other examples I can't remember. I could look up the reference
if anyone is really interested.

I find it interesting that many sci-fi aliens have things like
undifferentiated tissues and no eyesight to make them "alien", but nearly
all have skeletons and combined breathing/eating orfices.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1999 22:57:42 -0700
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@home.com>
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel

>This thread is starting to support the idea that travel between stars using
>Jump Drive is not FTL travel at all.

Well, if the star systems one jumps to are in our universe, then it has to
be FTL travel because there are no star systems within a few light-weeks of
Earth but there are lots within a few jumps.

>If one removed generation ships and
>jump masking from the game, the 2-D Hexagonal nature of the mapping system
>could be said to relate otherwise unconnected systems.  There would be
>nothing to prevent every Traveller system existing in a separate literal
>universe, connected only through J-Space.  Ideas?  Takers?

The idea has been proposed before to solve the "space is 2D" problem. Alas,
there are many canonical references to Traveller star maps matching both
jump and normal space travel distances and directions. Additionally,
interstellar borders in the OTU only make sense if jump space maps to 2
dimensions.

- --
IMTU t4+ ru ge+ !3i(3i++) jt-- au+ ls- 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 04:03:40 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

- -----Original Message-----
From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Sunday, June 27, 1999 1:25 AM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...


>> Doug Berry said:

>> The Force Ensign in charge explained that the witnesses to the event
would
>> tell everyone that not only is resistance futile, but extremely deadly to
>> boot, and that the Marines will be able to mop up without having to
>inflict
>> massive casualties.
>>


The Roc said:

>I kind of find this as something straight out of a comic book (I'm not a
big
>comic fan you may gather).  It really doesn't sound realistic to me... I
>could be wrong however, I know other's won't agree with me.


I disagree and yet agree.

The historical reason that is usually cited for the use of the atom bombs at
Hiroshima and Nagasaki is quite similar to the one Doug's Force Ensign
gives. There's also a story, possibly a myth, about the Soviet Union's
response to hijacking terrorists: simply blow up the whole plane. It's
common in war for one side to use extreme measures to terrorize the enemy
into believing that resistance is futile.

However, the method doesn't always work. There are many cases in which the
use of excessive force actually strengthens the will and resolve of the
people to win. Take a look at Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union during
World War II. The Nazis were brutal and absolutely merciless, but after the
initial shock was over the Soviets fought even harder. They knew that the
only way to survive was to win. Then, years later, the same thing happened
in reverse in Afghanistan. The Soviets were brutal and absolutely merciless,
and it only strengthened the resolve of the various factions they were
fighting after the initial shock wore off.

The use of excessive force, at least in my humble opinion, is ultimately a
gamble. I've never seen the Imperium as being the type to gamble.

>> That's why they are used only as assault troops.  Army troops do the
>> consolidation thing.
>>
>
>I'm sure that in WWII, US Marines were used as plain old grunts at times
>(not purely for beach assaults and such -- as storm troopers), who spent
>weeks/months trudging through swamps and jungles clearing out enemy pockets
>of resistance.  I don't see the IM's doing the assault thing then saying,
>"It's knock-off time... where's the army?"


In Doug's defense, the Imperial marines aren't American marines, or British
marines, or any other marines that exist (or have existed) in the real
world.

The Imperial marines are not specially trained soldiers that land in Higgins
boats, en masse, to take a beach. Imperial marines exist as well trained
pilots for the biggest and baddest force multiplier the world has ever
known: battle dress.

Imperial marines work in small groups with heavy powered armor with really
nasty and brutal heavy weapons. The high-tech, state of the art nature of
their battle dress means that Imperial marines simply *cannot* be used just
like infantry.

It's possible that my vision of Imperial marines is heavily influenced by
the M.I. Starship Troopers. Marines would be sent in to quickly demoralize a
world and, if required, secure a landing point for infantry to come and do
the grunt work.

The closest comparison for Imperial marines in the modern day are combat air
pilots and tank crews.

In their aircraft, pilots are missile firing, target bombing, smart-bomb
guiding badasses. Outside of their planes, they are just guys with guns. All
of their extensive and expensive training and skill in using high tech
weapons is gone.

In their tanks, tank crews are big-gun shooting, building smashing, infantry
crushing badasses. Outside of their tanks, they are just guys with guns.
When they're outside their tanks, all of their training, experience and
skill goes to waste.

Inside battledress, an imperial marine is a brick-busting, lightning spewing
hardcore badass. His training, experience and skill is in using the ultimate
single-man force multiplier the world has ever known. Outside of his suit,
the Imperial marines skill, training and experience goes to waste.

American marines in WWII were often used as vanilla infantry because their
skill sets overlapped with those of infantry. You'll also note that
sometimes infantry were used to take beaches, which should have been done by
marines. However, in the modern day, only a sadistic or utterly desperate
American leader would use combat air pilots or tank crews as vanilla
infantry.

>I know some turretheads that would stoutly disagree with you here.  History
>also shows that vehicle crews who have lost their vehicles were quite
>capable of taking up a small arm and fighting alongside the grunts.  Tobrok
>was just one example, when the city was under seige, vehicle crews defended
>on foot after losing their vehicles or running out of ammo for them.  I
>personally think you are selling IM's short.


I think you missed Doug's point. He wasn't selling them short. Look at it
this way:

I'm an Imperial marine. I am trained to wear a suit of powered armor. High
tech powered armor is nothing like modern day body armor by any stretch of
the imagination. It's climate controlled. It's impervious the the majority
of small arms. It lowers the volume of the loud explosions outside. It saves
me from being blinded by darkening at just the right moment. Combat for me
is not about sighting down the barrel of my rifle and firing. It's about
keeping an eye on my HUD, my suit computer assessing the value of potential
threats. My suit allows me to zoom in on an enemy bunker with the image
superimposed in just such a way that I can still view the battlefield. When
I jump, robotic legs and maybe even contragrav packs or gravitic thrusters
allow me to soar through the air. I have most likely never smelled burning
flesh, plastic and rubber on a high intensity battlefield.

If I get out of my suit I am at a distinct disadvantage and my chances of
being killed are entirely different. I am not an idiot. I know this
inherently. I am not infantry. I don't want to be infantry. I am a
battledress pilot. I am an Imperial marine. If I get out of my suit am I
completely helpless? No. Maybe I can get to my sidearm. Maybe I can pick up
a falled rifle. However, I am now helpless. I am a specialist without my
specialty. I know how to fire an ACR, I remember from basic. Actually, I was
pretty good with the ACR. However, while the Imperial infantry soldiers were
drilling day after day with their ACRs, I was practicing smashing into
entrenchments in a suit made of a high-tech, ultra-dense alloys that also
has the added bonus to increase my strength to superhuman levels. While the
impie infantry was out there, making an art out of the belly crawl, with
live rounds going over their heads, I was being hit with a barrage of false
suit failures.

I know how to react when my oxy-tank has been ruptured by an armor piercing
shell. I know how to deal with a sudden failure of the climate control unit.
I know that sometimes the suit can get touchy and switch to the backup
battery when a micronuke goes off nearby. I know how to jettison my ammo to
avoid losing a large chunk of my suit and my left arm when it's warranted.
That infantry soldier belly-crawled though. He's a hell of alot better than
me at doing it.

Can an Imperial marine survive on the field of battle without his armor?
It's possible. However, any battlefield hostile enough to warrant the use of
Imperial marines in powered armor is likely hot, hot, hot.

You're also making a very unfair comparison by going back in time and
picking a very specialized situation.

1.) Tank crews and their training programs were entirely different in WWII
than they are now. It takes a greater degree of specialization to be a
modern tanker than a WWII tanker. If I remember correctly, in that campaign
the danger of running out of fuel and ammo was always looming for both
sides. As a result, the the training was more intensive. I may be off base,
but I'm reasonably sure I've read or heard that somewhere. My own historical
specialty is the time period between the Reconstruction and World War II,
focusing strongly on the early 20th century in America. I'm not as up on my
WWII history as I should be.

2.) You're talking about a siege where the soldiers in question had only a
few options: fight, surrender or die. Running out of fuel and ammo was not a
matter of if but when.

3.) Allied WWII tank crews were much "closer" to combat than modern tank
crews are. Their effective range for punching through German armor was
relatively short. The ports on the tank were big open holes, which forced
the tankers to experience much of the experience of combat in the open. The
danger from enemy infantry was much more real to an Allied WWII tanker than
a modern day tanker. Ultimately, a modern day tank crew without a tank is
utterly useless in the roles that tanks perform and, all things being equal,
they are far less useful than the same number of infantry soldiers in the
roles that infantry soldiers perform.

If an Imperial marine is caught with his pants down, he's going to haul ass
to get in his suit. If the suit is unavailable (because it's destroyed) he's
going to try to get to a place where he can get a new suit. He is more like
a pilot than anything else.

I'm not trying to insult tankers or pilots here, nor am I trying to talk out
of my ass. The fact remains that, all things being equal, someone with more
training and more experience with something will be much better than someone
else. I'm not  downplaying natural talent here, it does (and should) play a
factor.

Tankers aren't trained to be rank and file infantry, nor are pilots. I think
that Impie marines will be very similar.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 04:17:14 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Marines

>But once again, ship board duty is an exception to the Marine norm.  While
>acting as ship;s security or doing patrols of Startown during liberty, they
>aren't (normally) going to get into firefights.
>- --
>
tell that to the marines in the 4th and fifth frontier wars... as evidenced
by AHL, they fight aboard ship without BD.

At least IMTU, Marines are all TRAINED to use BD, but most actual mission
time is spent in regular uniforms... BD suits are generally issued to
troops who need it for the operational mission.

The combat paralysis doesn't make much sense to me; The ImMar training
cycles would assure that they were as prepared for fighting outside the
suit as in it... BD is just too expensive for "Normal" operations. Combat
armor, however is typical marine "Threat Environment", and typicall "Low
Threat" is the CES, as per the TD on earth.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 04:27:47 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)

Chris Seamans wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
If an Imperial marine is caught with his pants down, he's going to haul ass
to get in his suit. If the suit is unavailable (because it's destroyed) he's
going to try to get to a place where he can get a new suit. He is more like
a pilot than anything else.

I'm not trying to insult tankers or pilots here, nor am I trying to talk out
of my ass. The fact remains that, all things being equal, someone with more
training and more experience with something will be much better than someone
else. I'm not  downplaying natural talent here, it does (and should) play a
factor.

Tankers aren't trained to be rank and file infantry, nor are pilots. I think
that Impie marines will be very similar.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
IMTU, Battle Dress ops were probably a bit rarer that the TU's described
by Chris and Doug. That Super-Suit wasn't something they handed out
to every Marine who passed basic, it was something you *earned* and
kept on earning - because there were a dozen (or more) marines who
would kick your butt to wear your suit if they could. Being a Drop
Commando (or other elite BD trooper) was the best a Marine could be.
Therefore, these BD Troops were frightening even when stark naked.

I think my PC's saw a whole squad in Battledress once. They frequently
saw Marines in combat armor, but Battledress - that was something
special. 

Granted, I never ran a middle-of-a-major-war campaign, where you might
have a situation where every super-suit in the Domain was brought
to one battle fleet.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 19:43:24 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@hartwick.edu>
To: 'TML' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 1999 6:27 PM
Subject: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)


>
> IMTU, Battle Dress ops were probably a bit rarer that the TU's described
> by Chris and Doug. That Super-Suit wasn't something they handed out
> to every Marine who passed basic, it was something you *earned* and
> kept on earning - because there were a dozen (or more) marines who
> would kick your butt to wear your suit if they could. Being a Drop
> Commando (or other elite BD trooper) was the best a Marine could be.
> Therefore, these BD Troops were frightening even when stark naked.
>
> I think my PC's saw a whole squad in Battledress once. They frequently
> saw Marines in combat armor, but Battledress - that was something
> special.
>
> Granted, I never ran a middle-of-a-major-war campaign, where you might
> have a situation where every super-suit in the Domain was brought
> to one battle fleet.
>

This too, was pretty much how I saw IM's and BD in my old campaign, and I
don't recall where BD was the equipment of only marines (it has been some
year's since I GM'd a CT game, so I may be forgetting something vital
here?), but thought even army units were equipped with it.  Please, someone
let me know if I am wrong in this?

My old campaign was in the Marches, I featured regular border clashes with
Vargr and Imperial patrols, and the odd Zho vessel testing the water
(Saying, "Whoops!  Sorry Mr Imperial person... I errr... misjumped... I'm
leaving now! While thinking, "Hmmm, quick response, lucky they fell for the
old 'misjump' ploy."), so both the army and marine units close to the danger
areas were equipped with BD or CA, depending on different factors (policy,
politics, etc.), but otherwise, not a lot of BD floating about.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 21:41:32 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 1999 6:03 PM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...



>
> The Roc said:
>
> >I kind of find this as something straight out of a comic book (I'm not a
> big
> >comic fan you may gather).  It really doesn't sound realistic to me... I
> >could be wrong however, I know other's won't agree with me.
>
>
> I disagree and yet agree.
>
> The historical reason that is usually cited for the use of the atom bombs
at
> Hiroshima and Nagasaki is quite similar to the one Doug's Force Ensign
> gives. There's also a story, possibly a myth, about the Soviet Union's
> response to hijacking terrorists: simply blow up the whole plane. It's
> common in war for one side to use extreme measures to terrorize the enemy
> into believing that resistance is futile.
>

As the history old books say, it was to save the lives of all the GI's that
would have to fight for the main islands, but the new books say that the
American commanders knew the Japanese were about to capitulate, but did not
tell Truman... the military simply wanted a live test bed for the two
designs while they could use it against the monster that was Japan, the
baby-eating rapists that they were (as they were seen at the time anyway).

   <<Snip>>

>
> >I'm sure that in WWII, US Marines were used as plain old grunts at times
> >(not purely for beach assaults and such -- as storm troopers), who spent
> >weeks/months trudging through swamps and jungles clearing out enemy
pockets
> >of resistance.  I don't see the IM's doing the assault thing then saying,
> >"It's knock-off time... where's the army?"
>
>
> In Doug's defense, the Imperial marines aren't American marines, or
British
> marines, or any other marines that exist (or have existed) in the real
> world.
>

No, but I knew of several games once where the IM's were based heavily on US
Marines (I didn't know of any based upon the British?) of WWII to Vietnam
era, and I'm sure a lot probably still are (IMHO).  In My game, I had a
generic variety, SF, not real-world based at all.

>
> The Imperial marines are not specially trained soldiers that land in
Higgins
> boats, en masse, to take a beach. Imperial marines exist as well trained
> pilots for the biggest and baddest force multiplier the world has ever
> known: battle dress
>
> Imperial marines work in small groups with heavy powered armor with really
> nasty and brutal heavy weapons. The high-tech, state of the art nature of
> their battle dress means that Imperial marines simply *cannot* be used
just
> like infantry.

Which is why they probably take them out of their suits to fight like real
men in certain conflicts.  Personally, I see BD skills no different than any
land-based vehicular skill, the troopie with BD-2 skill can use the suit
better than his mate with BD-1, just like the ground-car -2 driver can keep
his vehicle under control better than the Ground-car -1 driver.

>
> In their aircraft, pilots are missile firing, target bombing, smart-bomb
> guiding badasses. Outside of their planes, they are just guys with guns.
All
> of their extensive and expensive training and skill in using high tech
> weapons is gone.
>

Well, and again, this is just me... but I have never seen BD use as such an
expensive skill as being a pilot.  And I have never seen EVERY IM character
rolled as having BD skill, yet they still went to war and won awards (using
Book 4).  This means that if ALL marines to see combat are BD equipped, that
a 0-level BD skilled marine performed just as good (or better) as a 1-, 2-,
3-, 4-, 5-level BD skilled marine... why bother teaching the skill at all?

> In their tanks, tank crews are big-gun shooting, building smashing,
infantry
> crushing badasses. Outside of their tanks, they are just guys with guns.
> When they're outside their tanks, all of their training, experience and
> skill goes to waste.

Like I said, the tankers I know would dispute this heartily.  Also, I know
several of those have attended the same survival courses as the Aussie north
enders and SAS quite successfully with high ratings.  To say they are
unskilled outside of their vehicles is not a good thing at all, nor is it
truthful.

And why call them Imperial Marines?  Why not call them "Suiters" or some
such, like you call armour crews "Tankers" for example.  The line of thought
I see here is that Marines are like unskilled soldiers who can only perform
with a comodicum of skill in a "vehicle" (BD) they are skilled in using.  It
was kinda put forward that tankers are unskilled soldiers without their
vehicles, so I see the same difference with IM's occuring with this argument

>
> Inside battledress, an imperial marine is a brick-busting, lightning
spewing
> hardcore badass. His training, experience and skill is in using the
ultimate
> single-man force multiplier the world has ever known. Outside of his suit,
> the Imperial marines skill, training and experience goes to waste.
>

It sounds to me that IM's cannot fight at all?  No real basic infantry-like
training?  They don't have to be skilled at unarmed combat and only lightly
skilled in small-arms usage.  They have a suit that does everything for
them... as long as you can see your target, you will have a good chance to
kill it.  So I assume that with this line of thought, if you take the
"average" IM (not the one that works out doing kickboxing) out of his suit
and put him into a bar brawl against an Imperial grunt (who is trained to
kill with whatever he has handy)... the grunt will win?  My goodness, I
can't see any John Wayne like movies of the Imperial Marine Corp!  ;^)

> American marines in WWII were often used as vanilla infantry because their
> skill sets overlapped with those of infantry. You'll also note that
> sometimes infantry were used to take beaches, which should have been done
by
> marines. However, in the modern day, only a sadistic or utterly desperate
> American leader would use combat air pilots or tank crews as vanilla
> infantry.

But we are talking about a trained ground troopie, not a pilot or tanker.
He is still a troopie in a suit.  I still see an IM in basic training
learning to be a Grunt before he gets close to a suit that possibly doesn't
require the same training as a tank (where you have 3-5 people trained in
their individual jobs and in acting as a "hive mind" for one unit -- the
tank) or much less than an aircraft.

I see IM's doing survival courses, firing courses, medical courses (first
aid), stealth training, etc., just like a grunt.  I can see them fielded
without BD in combat to prove worthy of using BD.

>
>
> I think you missed Doug's point. He wasn't selling them short. Look at it
> this way:
>
> I'm an Imperial marine. I am trained to wear a suit of powered armor. High
> tech powered armor is nothing like modern day body armor by any stretch of
> the imagination. It's climate controlled. It's impervious the the majority
> of small arms. It lowers the volume of the loud explosions outside. It saves
> me from being blinded by darkening at just the right moment. Combat for me
> is not about sighting down the barrel of my rifle and firing. It's about
> keeping an eye on my HUD, my suit computer assessing the value of potential
> threats. My suit allows me to zoom in on an enemy bunker with the image
> superimposed in just such a way that I can still view the battlefield. When
> I jump, robotic legs and maybe even contragrav packs or gravitic thrusters
> allow me to soar through the air. I have most likely never smelled burning
> flesh, plastic and rubber on a high intensity battlefield.

I wouldn't give a soldier a suit if he didn't know everything else.  The
incidence of armour loss on the battlefield would be reasonably med-high, so
would the loss of BD... not a feasable bad-arsed reputation when you lose
the "Battle of Naked Trooper" because "To many troops lost their BD, caused
a complete route.  Enemy swarmed over our armour support and they had to be
abandoned... bloody cowardly marines!"  Not one for the recruiting poster...
plus all the war correspondence filming IM troops without armour cowering
and/or fleeing in every battle where their BD is lost!

It just doesn't jell with how I (again, it's my opinion) imagine a fierce
Imperial Marine operates...

   <<Snip>>

>
>
> Can an Imperial marine survive on the field of battle without his armor?
> It's possible. However, any battlefield hostile enough to warrant the use
of
> Imperial marines in powered armor is likely hot, hot, hot.

As opposed to a battlefield hostile enough to warrant grunts in BD (unless I
missed that thing I mentioned about only marines having such armour) with
armour support?

>
> You're also making a very unfair comparison by going back in time and
> picking a very specialized situation.

   <<Snip>>
>
> If an Imperial marine is caught with his pants down, he's going to haul ass
> to get in his suit. If the suit is unavailable (because it's destroyed) he's
> going to try to get to a place where he can get a new suit. He is more like
> a pilot than anything else.

Which puts him in the situation where, if there are no other "vehicles"
(suits) available to him for whatever reasons, our big bad marine is
relegated to the field kitchens out of the way of the real fighting men?
Makes that cutlass sensible now :^)

   <<Snip>>

I'm not having a go at you personally, I'm just trying to make sense of the
logic of an impressively cudo'ed fighting force that can't seem to perform
without the best equipment, when the lowly grunt can kill with his bear
hands if required.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 09:36:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Alien Life

>ObTrav: Has anyone actually done any statistical studies of how likely an
>Earthlike world is using the CT world-building system?  I wonder what the
>Drake equation looks like for the Third Imperium. . .
>
>Jon

Fairly likely around main sequence stars.

I once detailed every system in four subsectors (Aramis, Regina, Lanth,
Rhylanor) for my campaign. Every world in every system had all possible
data generated (except maps). I had to tweak about 1/3 of the worlds to
make them habitable, which means that 2/3 had habitable temperature ranges
(the main problem) from the start.

Mind you, this was starting with the Travller UWP stats. I haven't kept
track of any systems generated from scratch.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #776
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 27 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 777



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Dark Nebula
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)
Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)
RE: Alien life
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Naked Marines (was re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)
Nukes and Dampers
RE: Game Balanced Aliens
Re: Imperial Marine Battledress/Potty-Training Issues
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 09:36:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Dark Nebula

>Right now there's a copy of "Dark Nebula" up for sale.  This is one
>I've never seen or even heard of before now. . .
>
>Can anyone give me a capsule review?  In particular, does the
>game contain any interesting canonical information on Solomani
>history that I might be able to put to use?
>
>Jon

Not much history. This is the game system from "Imperium", presented as a
series 120 game. Nice little game, some neat twists, but not a lot of
history. (For one thing, the astromorphic maps are in a different
configuration for each game!)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 09:36:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Robert Prior <robert_prior@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

>I remember reading an article in an Encyclopedia Britannica yearbook about
>evolved traits. The author identified several traits that evolved
>independently in several different species, which he called "universals",
>and traits that appeared only once in the evolutionary record. I forget
>what he called these other specific traits. The point was that some traits
>are so useful they become dominant in every species that develops them
>while others, though they may be useful, do not have an overwhelming
>advantage.
>
>The interesting part is where he listed several universal and specific
>traits. Universals included things like specialized tissues, vision,
>flight, and intelligence. He claimed there is something so advantageous in
>these traits that they reappear over and over.
>
>Specific traits included things like bone and crossed breathing/digestive
>passages. Though vertibrates are common, they all descended from a common
>ancestor and bones were never developed in any other evolutionary line.
>There were other examples I can't remember. I could look up the reference
>if anyone is really interested.

I didn't see that article, but these points are made in "The Collapse of
Chaos" and "Figments of Reality" by Ian Stewart and Jack Cohen.   Jack
Cohen was the chap who designed Grendels for "Legacy of Heorot".

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 17:15:31 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

- -----Original Message-----
From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: 27 June 1999 13:11
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...


<snip>

>I wouldn't give a soldier a suit if he didn't know everything else.  The
>incidence of armour loss on the battlefield would be reasonably med-high,
so
>would the loss of BD... not a feasable bad-arsed reputation when you lose
>the "Battle of Naked Trooper" because "To many troops lost their BD, caused
>a complete route.  Enemy swarmed over our armour support and they had to be
>abandoned... bloody cowardly marines!"  Not one for the recruiting
poster...
>plus all the war correspondence filming IM troops without armour cowering
>and/or fleeing in every battle where their BD is lost!
>
>It just doesn't jell with how I (again, it's my opinion) imagine a fierce
>Imperial Marine operates...
>


<snip>

>I'm not having a go at you personally, I'm just trying to make sense of the
>logic of an impressively cudo'ed fighting force that can't seem to perform
>without the best equipment, when the lowly grunt can kill with his bear
>hands if required.
>
>--  The Roc


Quite.

After all, what happens if the enemy fleet reappears and interferes with
resupply and reinforcements.  The Marines may have to fight for several
weeks isolated from their logistic tail. Eventually power cells and oxygen
tanks are depleted, and the BD is effectively out of commission.  These
elite forces will then have to rely on more mundane methods of force
projection... perhaps even as mundane as fatigues and cutlasses <g>

After all, except within the confines of a single system, we aren't looking
at a situation with real time intelligence and command/control.  They can't
just radio in a request for resupply if their fleet has been forced to jump
out of the system by enemy activity.  There may not have been time to evac
them. It will be at least two weeks before friendlies reappear, maybe longer
if a sufficient force to repel the enemy fleet takes time to assemble.
These troops will *have* to be able to operate without their BD, or at the
first hitch their assault will fail.

YMMV

Matt

Matthew Bond
mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- --------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
.To blast him with a micronuke is quite another!"
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 13:19:21 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Bruce Johnson writes:
<snipped>
"I would be surprised if it were a generalized trait of all 
reptiles, but I'll be equally surprised if parthenogenesis 
_isn't_ more widespread in reptile populations that we 
currently think...they're not exactly the most well-studied 
critters on the planet..."

	Very true! How many Traveller worlds, occupied for a
	few centuries, have poorly understood native flora 
	and fauna given that we have lived here for many 
	thousands of years and don't know much about a lot?

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 13:24:50 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Douglas E. Berry writes:
"But that was the whole point of the novel.. the Moties..."
<snipped>

	I loved the novel, but I just don't think that they
	fit into MTU very well (at least, not without some
	modification). I also think that the novel would not 
	have suffered if the Moties were a little "weaker."
	Just my cr. 0.02.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 10:24:49 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...
.
>The use of excessive force, at least in my humble opinion, is ultimately a
>gamble. I've never seen the Imperium as being the type to gamble.

  If establishing the Solomani Autonomous Region was a calculated response as
opposed to a gamble, then I don't care much for their strategic intellects :)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 13:24:56 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@hartwick.edu>
To: 'TML' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, June 27, 1999 4:33 AM
Subject: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)


Walter Smith said:

>IMTU, Battle Dress ops were probably a bit rarer that the TU's described
>by Chris and Doug. That Super-Suit wasn't something they handed out
>to every Marine who passed basic, it was something you *earned* and
>kept on earning - because there were a dozen (or more) marines who
>would kick your butt to wear your suit if they could. Being a Drop
>Commando (or other elite BD trooper) was the best a Marine could be.
>Therefore, these BD Troops were frightening even when stark naked.


If you have a different take on the way that they're used, you have a
different take on the way that they're used. I'm not going to argue with
that. However, Battle Dress is relatively cheap and the mission directives
of the Imperial Marines are specialized enough that I'm not sure I can see
much use for the marines if they're not tied in with battle dress. That's
just my spin on the situation.

>I think my PC's saw a whole squad in Battledress once. They frequently
>saw Marines in combat armor, but Battledress - that was something
>special.


Fair enough. My PCs have never actually seen anyone in Battle Dress at all.
Battle dress in IMTU is rare on the order of modern day MBTs and jet
fighters. Most of my campaigns have been distinctly non-military in flavor
anyway.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 13:32:16 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)

- -----Original Message-----
From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Sunday, June 27, 1999 5:39 AM
Subject: Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)


>This too, was pretty much how I saw IM's and BD in my old campaign, and I
>don't recall where BD was the equipment of only marines (it has been some
>year's since I GM'd a CT game, so I may be forgetting something vital
>here?), but thought even army units were equipped with it.  Please, someone
>let me know if I am wrong in this?


Some army units are equipped with it. The army units who are equipped with
it would likely have similar problems. However, Imperial marines are a
specialized lot. They strike hard and strike fast from orbit. A requirement
for this is powered armor. Powered armor is the only weapons platform that
can be dropped from orbit effectively and multiply the force strength of the
marines enough to secure the initial beachhead. Powered armor is also the
best weapons platform for onboard defense of the Imperial Navy's big ships.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 13:49:49 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Alien life

Rob Brady writes:
<snipped>
"Life exists on many systems, but getting above the 
pennsylvanian era (IIRC: plants, insects, and fish) is rare..."

	AFAIK, the most primitive vertebrates appeared in the 
	oceans of Terra in the Ordovician Period (500-439 MYA). 
	Early jawed fishes, terrestrial vascular plants, and 
	insects appeared in the Silurian Period (439-409 MYA). In 
	the Devonian Perod (409-354 MYA), these groups diversified
	and amphibians appeared. All this took place during the
	Paleozoic Era (543-251 MYA). [MYA = Million Years Ago]

"...getting any intelligent life is very very rare (out of 442 
worlds I generated (1 sector) there were 15 intelligent species,
."

	This is about what I generated for myself.

"...9 of them had already done themselves in (you know: nuclear 
wars; greenhouse gases; overpopulation and food riots), 5 of them 
had low tech, and 1 was a spacefaring, pre-interstellar system. I 
tend to think this is a little high, but the rest of them may 
still do themselves in."

	My, you are an optimist  :-)

"After all, if there are so many intelligent beings out there, 
why haven't they radioed us yet?"

	Would YOU want to talk to the beings that put out the stuff
	that we broadcast on TV?

<snipped>

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 10:41:52
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

At 09:41 PM 6/27/99 +1000, you wrote:

>Well, and again, this is just me... but I have never seen BD use as such an
>expensive skill as being a pilot.  And I have never seen EVERY IM character
>rolled as having BD skill, yet they still went to war and won awards (using
>Book 4).  This means that if ALL marines to see combat are BD equipped, that
>a 0-level BD skilled marine performed just as good (or better) as a 1-, 2-,
>3-, 4-, 5-level BD skilled marine... why bother teaching the skill at all?

Just to point out that this is a proposal for a GURPS book, so that the
templete for an Imperial Marine *will* include a point or two spent on
Battlesuit.

>Like I said, the tankers I know would dispute this heartily.  Also, I know
>several of those have attended the same survival courses as the Aussie north
>enders and SAS quite successfully with high ratings.  To say they are
>unskilled outside of their vehicles is not a good thing at all, nor is it
>truthful.

There is a world of difference between going to training and actually
getting shot at.

>And why call them Imperial Marines?  Why not call them "Suiters" or some
>such, like you call armour crews "Tankers" for example.  The line of thought
>I see here is that Marines are like unskilled soldiers who can only perform
>with a comodicum of skill in a "vehicle" (BD) they are skilled in using.  It
>was kinda put forward that tankers are unskilled soldiers without their
>vehicles, so I see the same difference with IM's occuring with this argument

Why is the 1st Cavalry Divison still called Calalry?  They don't seem to
have any horses..  As I pointed out in my essay, the current Imperial
Marines take their lineage from the Sylean marines, who trace themselves
back to a RoM unit.  The RoM Marines were originally drawn from units like
the 82nd Airborne, the USMC, Rangers, Royal Marines.. all the units trained
to fight light and hard.

>It sounds to me that IM's cannot fight at all?  No real basic infantry-like
>training?  They don't have to be skilled at unarmed combat and only lightly
>skilled in small-arms usage.  They have a suit that does everything for
>them... as long as you can see your target, you will have a good chance to
>kill it.  So I assume that with this line of thought, if you take the
>"average" IM (not the one that works out doing kickboxing) out of his suit
>and put him into a bar brawl against an Imperial grunt (who is trained to
>kill with whatever he has handy)... the grunt will win?  My goodness, I
>can't see any John Wayne like movies of the Imperial Marine Corp!  ;^)

*sigh*  The original idea was a limited form of Combat Paralysis that
*some* Marines might might have.

Each individula Marine will differ.  Yes, there will be hand to hand
training, simply as a confidence booster if nothing else.

Also, the average Marine has been trained as a fencer (to increase body
awarness) and so can take that trooper down with a pool cue.

>But we are talking about a trained ground troopie, not a pilot or tanker.
>He is still a troopie in a suit.  I still see an IM in basic training
>learning to be a Grunt before he gets close to a suit that possibly doesn't
>require the same training as a tank (where you have 3-5 people trained in
>their individual jobs and in acting as a "hive mind" for one unit -- the
>tank) or much less than an aircraft.

Every single soldier in the United States Army learns to fire the M-16A2
rifle.  Only a few MOSs continue to train and fire it after basic.  A
Chaplain's Assaistant might only fire his weapon twice a year.  That skill
is going to degrade.

So the Recruit learns some basic infantry tactics before getting into his
suit.  Then he's either in the suit of doing jobs like Consulte guard for
the next ten years.  Suddenly one day, his suit fails during a battle, and
he crawls out.  How much of that training will he remember?  He has ten
years of battle habits based around by almost invulnerable to fire.

>I see IM's doing survival courses, firing courses, medical courses (first
>aid), stealth training, etc., just like a grunt.  I can see them fielded
>without BD in combat to prove worthy of using BD.

That's fairly ridiculous.  They don't make tankers serve as infantry before
their allowed to drive M1's.  Battledress infantry is a skilled position,
just like driving a tank or being an artillerist.
>

>I wouldn't give a soldier a suit if he didn't know everything else.  The
>incidence of armour loss on the battlefield would be reasonably med-high, so
>would the loss of BD... not a feasable bad-arsed reputation when you lose
>the "Battle of Naked Trooper" because "To many troops lost their BD, caused
>a complete route.  Enemy swarmed over our armour support and they had to be
>abandoned... bloody cowardly marines!"  Not one for the recruiting poster...
>plus all the war correspondence filming IM troops without armour cowering
>and/or fleeing in every battle where their BD is lost!

Considering that the one suit of BD we've seen for G:T had heavy enough
armor to stop *any* hand-held weapon, I don't think that armor loss is
going to be that high.

Anyway, that's why the Marines do things like pop micronukes on snipers.
Move Fast, Hit Hard, No Mercy.

- -- 

Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"Avoid small projects, they leave no mark on people's memories"
- - Daniel Burnham, San Francisco City Planner, 1907.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 10:48:21
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

At 05:15 PM 6/27/99 +0100, you wrote:

>After all, what happens if the enemy fleet reappears and interferes with
>resupply and reinforcements.  The Marines may have to fight for several
>weeks isolated from their logistic tail. Eventually power cells and oxygen
>tanks are depleted, and the BD is effectively out of commission.  These
>elite forces will then have to rely on more mundane methods of force
>projection... perhaps even as mundane as fatigues and cutlasses <g>

This is what's known in military circles as a "fucked up situation."  What
happens when any units logistical tail is cut?  They tend to die.  

Let me make this clear.  I am *NOT* saying that deprived of their armor,
Marines curl up in fetal positions and make whimpering noises.  What I am
saying is that Marines and trained and equipped to use Battledress.  They
are not designed for extended combats, the are designed to provided brief,
precise bursts of overwhelming violence to either neutralize a specific
target or open a breach for follow-on forces.

If they are forced to abandon their battledress, they will probably fight
on, but *they won't be as good at it as the Army troops who train for this
situation.*


- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 10:50:54
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Naked Marines (was re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)

At 08:45 PM 6/26/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Do Marines always fight in Battle Dress? I know they'd *prefer* to have
>their personal superhero suit on every time things get bad, but won't there
>be occaisions where the fight shows up and they aren't dressed for it?
>
>I especially expect Marines to train for unarmored (or lightly-armored) 
>action if the armor has a high maintenance time compared to active
>time, or a cost high enough that every marine doesn't get a set unless
>they're the Drop Commandoes.

They train for unarmored ops the way the Coast Guard trains for riot
supression: It's not our job, and we're not equipped for it.

for the light roles, Army Jump Brigades are avalible.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 14:06:30 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Nukes and Dampers

Christopher Thrash wrote:

> Besides, nuclear dampers make clean-up a snap.

And if the nuke damper runs out of power?

Actually, this is a good question.  Do nuke dampers permanently
'absorb' troublesome radiation or do they 'dampen' it only so long
as it it powered?

If the former, then NDs can be used to scrub an area clean.
If the latter, then they are only temporary abatement.


- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 14:13:14 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Game Balanced Aliens

Michel Vaillancourt writes:
<snipped>
"As an aside, in AD&D, how many groups have you seen that 
even have a *majority* of humans?  Too many benefits to 
taking one of the demi-human races. As a result, I tend to 
work on a simple accounting system...  a given race cannot 
be any more than "+2" greater than human...  Every point
af stat or skill better must be balanced back down with a 
dis-add of some kind."

	I introduced additional penalties for non-humans in
	AD&D, and most of my Traveller aliens have at least
	some disadvantages (there are one or two exceptions,
	for which I have invoked certain constraints that have
	prevented them from taking over...but even these 
	species are not unlimited in abilities, just superior 
	on average to humans).

<cool stuff snipped>

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 14:21:10 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marine Battledress/Potty-Training Issues

Black ICE wrote:

> (Note: add "Incontinence" [at reduced cost; only applies when battledress is
> not available in a combat situation] to the list of disadvantages
> available to Marine templates....)

Odious Personal Habit,  -15 points
- -4 Reaction

- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

NOTE: Please include all previous mail in responses.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 14:34:36 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

Hypercleats writes:
"I don't see what physical laws the Moties break, and the 
reason for keeping them bottled up(see below) would apply 
in ST as well, wouldn't it?"

	Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the Moties broke
	specific laws (though that is exactly what I did).
	What I found difficult to take were things such as:

	A Motie with no tools able to see and manipulate 
	microcircuits in a sealed unit.

	Unintelligent "Watchmakers" with absolutely no concept
	of how a Langston Field works, without tools or
	plans or any clues about how many (most?) of the 
	components work, not only pull it appart but redesign
	it and build a MUCH improved unit with capabilities
	that the original did not have.

	Incredably advanced, highly intelligent, and specialized
	Moties that cannot solve a basic biological problem.

	It has been a while since I read the books, but I also 
	found that, despite their specializations, they performed
	quite well at other things (other than combat). In Star
	Trek I have aliens that can absorb electrical, heat, or
	photon energy and replicate themselves instantly, or use 
	that energy to electrocute nearby Starfleet Redshirts. 
	That's OK, the Organians will keep them in line if they 
	get out of hand. There are "energy" beings with entirely
	undefined "energy" without matter floating around and
	doing their thing. Naturally occuring organisms that can,
	for no other reason than the plot, resist phaser blasts
	easily. Lots of fun, but definitly not Traveller.

<snipped>

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 15:09:17 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)

Walter Smith wrote:

> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> IMTU, Battle Dress ops were probably a bit rarer that the TU's described
> by Chris and Doug. That Super-Suit wasn't something they handed out
> to every Marine who passed basic, it was something you *earned* and
> kept on earning - because there were a dozen (or more) marines who
> would kick your butt to wear your suit if they could. Being a Drop
> Commando (or other elite BD trooper) was the best a Marine could be.
> Therefore, these BD Troops were frightening even when stark naked.

I have to agree.

I guess what's troubling to me is that Doug's vision of the I'rine's is
different
from what I'm used.  Not bad, just different.  The picutre I have involves
BD as a rare sight.

In Book 1, there is no Battledress skill at all, but then BD probably
didn't exist yet.

In Book 4, BD skill is there, but it is difficult to get requiring a roll
of 6 and a TL12+ world.  The automatic skill is Gun Combat.
The second skill (MOS) is either
Gun Cmbt (2/6)
 Zero-G (2/6)
Hvy Wpns (1/6)
Fwd Obs (1/6)
Battledress (1/6 + TL 12+ requirement).

The type of action the I'rine will see in Book 4 Chargen:
Raid (2/11)
Counter Insurgency (2/11)
Police Action (2/11)
Ships Troops (2/11)
Inernal Security (1/11)
Garrison (1/11)
Training (1/11)

In my mind, the real elite of these were those who went to Commando
School and Protected Forces Training, neither if which involved BD

Command School Skills:  Brawling, Gun Cbt, Demolitions, Wilderness
Survival, Recon, Vacc Suit, Blad Cbt and Instruction.  BD is available
to the Commando Branch, but with the same rarity for a regular marine.

Protected Forces Skills:  Vacc Suit, Zero G Combat

I guess the picture Doug paint's says to me that a Marine without
Battledress skills is not a marine.  And that isn't interesting to me.
But doing some reading and its not Doug's fault.  Seems GT is
BD-happy.

In GT templates, all marines have either BD or Exoskeleton,
but I think that has something to do with the point-based chargen
system that makes it easy to throw a point, or half a point at
just about anything.  (We can debate chargen systems elsewhere).

And Star Mercs drove this home even further.  On page 116,
describing a marine security detachment:

"For formal duties, mariens are armed with the traditional
cutlass and a snub autopistol along with their dress uniforms.
Normal shipboard duties are carried out in everyday uniform,
supplemented by flak jackets and gauss rifles (gauss pistols
for officers) as necessary.  In an alert situation, they don
battledress. . . ."
   "Marines assigned to a downport or other non-space duties
are equipped with battledress and gauss rifles . . ."

Describing a Marine Task Force on page 118:

"All marines are equipped with battledress and armed with
FGMP-12s unless otherwise specified."

"All commandoes are equipped with commando battle dress and
armed with FGMP-12s unless otherwise noted."

I guess the knife-fighting, jungle-humping marine commando is gone.

Whoever is making the BD is getting really wealthy.  If I were the Zhodani,
for the 6th Frontier War, I'd target the BD manufacturers.


A minor point:
Note:  We're already headed for inconsistencies within GT.
The inks not dry on Star Mercs.   On page 21, Marine Commandos
wear Green Berets with a golden sunburst and the words
"All Means To Victory".  So in the end will we have an OTU with
regular marines wearing maroon berets and the commandos wearing
green ones?  I don't care which color but I appreciate consistency.

But green?  That will clash with the maroon dress uniform (not that I'm
a fan of that either, but I think its time to call a fashion consultant.
Things are getting ugly).  ;-)

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 12:32:45 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

Ian Ferguson wrote:

> Hypercleats writes:
> "I don't see what physical laws the Moties break, and the
> reason for keeping them bottled up(see below) would apply
> in ST as well, wouldn't it?"

And Traveller I forgot to mention.

>
>         Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the Moties broke
>         specific laws (though that is exactly what I did).
>         What I found difficult to take were things such as:

O.K., just a broad statement then, and one that I agree with.

>
>         A Motie with no tools able to see and manipulate
>         microcircuits in a sealed unit.

Well this means I have to read the book again, I can't remember that
lil' bit.

>
>         Unintelligent "Watchmakers" with absolutely no concept
>         of how a Langston Field works, without tools or
>         plans or any clues about how many (most?) of the
>         components work, not only pull it appart but redesign
>         it and build a MUCH improved unit with capabilities
>         that the original did not have.

I admit the "Watchmakers" pushed it a bit, I just took it that they
worked at the instruction of an Engineer, communicating in subtle ways
only millenia of symbiosis can develop. Perhaps even empathy or
psionics. I think that is very deft "hand-waving" on my part, a skill I
employ often. :)

>
>         Incredably advanced, highly intelligent, and specialized
>         Moties that cannot solve a basic biological problem.

Basic, yes, but in a zone of great potential socio-scientific friction.
Propagation of the species is hard-wired deep within our bio-chemical
framework. Hard to look at the problem objectively, IMHO.

<snip>

Now where did I put TMiGE? ;)

BZA

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #777
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Sunday, June 27 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 778



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Imperial Marines and Gurps
Re: Nukes and Dampers
Marines in GAME terms (was Re: Battle Dress . . .)
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)
Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps
Re: Marines in GAME terms (was Re: Battle Dress . . .)
Re: Nukes and Dampers
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re: Marines in GAME terms (was Re: Battle Dress . . .)
Re: Marines in GAME terms (was Re: Battle Dress . . .)
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers) 
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 15:39:47 -0500
From: "Alan R. Chambers" <alanross@bellsouth.net>
Subject: Imperial Marines and Gurps

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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If you are going to write the ground forces book for Gurps, please read =
Star Mercs P. 116-118. It discusses Imperial Marine Security Detachments =
and Task Forces."Normal shipboard duties are carried out in everyday =
uniform, supplemented by flak jackets and Gauss Rifles (Gauss pistols =
for officers) as necessary. In Alert situations they don battledress."=20
 This section suggests that all marines are trained in FG-12's, Gauss =
weapons, Ram grenades and Battledress. Since for formal duties they =
carry snub pistols and Cutlasses I would think they were trained with =
those weapons as well.=20
If I were a marine officer I would carry whatever my men carried for a =
longarm. The old W.W.II German Sniper adage "Shoot the man with the =
carrying the M1 carbine and a pistol" comes to mind.
Alan    =20

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<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT size=3D2>If you are going to write the ground =
forces book=20
for Gurps, please read Star Mercs P. 116-118. It discusses Imperial =
Marine=20
Security Detachments and Task Forces.&quot;Normal shipboard duties are =
carried=20
out in everyday uniform, supplemented by flak jackets and Gauss Rifles =
(Gauss=20
pistols for officers) as necessary. In Alert situations they don=20
battledress.&quot;&nbsp;</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT size=3D2>&nbsp;This section suggests that all =
marines are=20
trained in FG-12's, Gauss weapons, Ram grenades and Battledress. Since =
for=20
formal duties they carry snub pistols and Cutlasses I would think they =
were=20
trained with those weapons as well.&nbsp;</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT size=3D2>If I were a marine officer I would carry =
whatever=20
my men carried for a longarm. The old W.W.II German Sniper adage =
&quot;Shoot the=20
man with the carrying the M1 carbine and a pistol&quot; comes to=20
mind.</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
<DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT size=3D2>Alan&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;=20
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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 14:14:53 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Nukes and Dampers

>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 14:06:30 -0400
>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
>Subject: Nukes and Dampers
>
>Actually, this is a good question.  Do nuke dampers permanently
>'absorb' troublesome radiation or do they 'dampen' it only so long
>as it it powered?
>
>If the former, then NDs can be used to scrub an area clean.
>If the latter, then they are only temporary abatement.

"Nuclear Dampers: A common term, damper units actually may be used to
increase or decrease the stability of atomic nuclei. Projecting from two
separate stations, the intersection of the two transmitted broadcasts
produces as series of nodes and anti-nodes. In the area of the nodes, the
strong nuclear force is enhanced, making the nucleus more stable. In the
area of the anti-nodes, the strong nuclear force is depressed, making the
nucleus much less stable." Book 4, p. 42.

To use nuclear dampers for cleaning up fallout, one sweeps the affected
area with anti-nodes. This reduces the stability (and thus the half-life)
of the radioactive by-products, causing them to decay into more-or-less
harmless substances much more quickly than in nature.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 99 16:09:51 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Marines in GAME terms (was Re: Battle Dress . . .)

On 06/27/99 at 03:09 PM,  Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:

>Walter Smith wrote:

>> >>>>>>>>>>>>
>> IMTU, Battle Dress ops were probably a bit rarer that the TU's described
>> by Chris and Doug. That Super-Suit wasn't something they handed out
>> to every Marine who passed basic, it was something you *earned* and
>> kept on earning -

>I have to agree.

So do I.

I preface my remarks by saying I think Doug is as entitled to his
vision just as much as, but no more than, any of the rest of us.  I
either don't understand, or don't agree with this vision, cum si cum
sa.  IAC, what I post below is my own muddled vision on the subject
of Marines in Traveller the Game, make of it what you will.

>I guess what's troubling to me is that Doug's vision of the I'rine's
>is different from what I'm used.  Not bad, just different. 

IMO, I'm afraid I have to say it's bad, not just different.  The
problem I have is *game* related, not universe related.  

IMO, doing Marines Doug's way devalues the entire Marine career when
it comes to developing characters for most types of Traveller Games.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Doug envisions Imperial Marines as
being akin to Heinlein's Starship Troopers. Fine, but I don't think
Trooper characters work in *most* Traveller scenarios.  IMTU (and I
think most TU's) the appearance, availability and use of Powered
Battlesuits is far from routine.  In most cases, Player Characters,
simply don't have access to them, and a skill set that focuses on
them is unused and wasted.

Conceptually, when a player says, "I want my character to have
been a Marine."  I'm thinking Pournelle's Line Marine (Johnny
Christian Falkenberg's boys) not a Heinlein Starship Trooper.  I
expect lots of infantry "grunt" skills like combat rifeman, ground
tactics, brawling, forward observer and wilderness survival on that
character sheet.  

This kind of character, call him Joe, *does* fit into roleplaying
parties of many kinds.  Merchant Campaign, Joe provides protection
and muscle for the group.  A Mercenary campaign, Joe is one of your
officers or troopers.  Exploration of new planets, Joe protects the
Scientists and Scouts (as if they need it.)  Diplomatic missions,
Joe is the bodyguard or part of the security detail.  Then *when*
the party eventually gets into the kind of combat that roleplaying
parties always get into Joe is the combat wonk and his character
shines.

OTOH, when a player says, "I want my character to have been a Jump
Trooper."  *then* Heinlein's Starship Troopers (Johnny Rico's mates)
springs to mind.  I expect this character, call him Sam, to be more
like Doug describes...a Powersuit driver with a little infantry
training.  

IMO, Sam doesn't mesh with most roleplaying parties nearly as well
as Joe. Sam works fine in a high-tech combat game and he might fit
okay in a mercenary scenario *if* he has that battlesuit, but if he
doesn't...  

In most scenarios, IMTU at least, he *isn't* going to have a powered
battlesuit, and Sam's training is going to be inferior to Joe's.
The player, and I, want to be able to build a Marine like Joe more
than we want to build a Marine like Sam.

So, Doug, in your vision how do we get a Joe instead of a Sam out of
the Marine career?  Does Joe come from the Army, while Sam comes
from the Marines?

Yesterday, I posted a suggestion that has been mostly ignored.  I'll
briefly present the gest of it again.  

   All Marines are combat rifemen first and specialists second.
   
   All Marines are trained, and continue to train, in infantry
   skills throughout their career.  Every Marine is expected to be
   able to fight and win with ACR and cutlass.
   
   A few Marines are given specialty training in powered Battlesuit
   and/or Jump Capsule use and are assigned tours with *elite* units.
   
   A few Marines are given specialty training in medicine,
   administration, armor or air, too, and are assigned tours with
   support units.
   
   But *all* Marines are always combat rifemen first and foremost.

Personally, I think this works better in *game* terms.  Now, we can
get a general-purpose Marine like Joe (he stayed in the
infantry/line his entire career), and we can get the specialist Sam
too (along with infantry training he received and did several tours
in Battlesuits).  We also can get Hank (infantry, then received
Medic training), Sue (infantry and then grav-tank), Eneri (infantry
and then air), and Rnold (infantry and then commando).

In GURPS game *book* terms, there are lots of career tracks
(Templates) to write and fill the pages.  In game *play* terms,
there are lots of career tracks for players to choose characters
from.  Again, I think this works better than Marines being a force
of specialty Powersuit drivers.

That's more than my two cents on this subject and I'm done. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:46:19 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: 27 June 1999 18:58
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...


>At 05:15 PM 6/27/99 +0100, you wrote:
>
>>After all, what happens if the enemy fleet reappears and interferes with
>>resupply and reinforcements.  The Marines may have to fight for several
>>weeks isolated from their logistic tail. Eventually power cells and oxygen
>>tanks are depleted, and the BD is effectively out of commission.  These
>>elite forces will then have to rely on more mundane methods of force
>>projection... perhaps even as mundane as fatigues and cutlasses <g>
>
>This is what's known in military circles as a "fucked up situation."  What
>happens when any units logistical tail is cut?  They tend to die.
>
>Let me make this clear.  I am *NOT* saying that deprived of their armor,
>Marines curl up in fetal positions and make whimpering noises.  What I am
>saying is that Marines and trained and equipped to use Battledress.  They
>are not designed for extended combats, the are designed to provided brief,
>precise bursts of overwhelming violence to either neutralize a specific
>target or open a breach for follow-on forces.
>
>If they are forced to abandon their battledress, they will probably fight
>on, but *they won't be as good at it as the Army troops who train for this
>situation.*
>
>Doug Berry
>dberry@hooked.net
>http://www.hooked.net/~dberry


While I can certainly understand your point of view regarding the relative
abilities of the army and marines in long term deployments, and that your
view is that marines have a different skill set to the army, I am not sure
that your point of view is the same as that of many of the posters on this
list.

This would be no problem if you were simply describing the marines in YTU,
after all "vive le difference".  However, your description is that of the
proposed *canon* marines.  I thought you were posting your proposal in order
to receive constructive criticism, and to get a feeling for the "de facto"
canon. ie the way marines are used by the majority of Traveller gamers.

Obviously, the TML doesn't necessarily reflect the majority of traveller
games, but it probably contains some of the most in depth thought about the
traveller universe.

The majority of the replies I have read in the threads spawned by your
initial post seem to be of the view that they are not only BD supertroopers,
but are also damn hard in the role of PBI.

I appreciate the need for a difference in the GT templates for marines and
army, but this can be taken up by such things as Marine Codes of Honour, and
better diplomatic/interpersonal skills in the army (representing more
emphasis on peacekeeping/long-term occupation etc).

Also, I don't think you are fully taking into account the deployment and
reinforcement timetable imposed by jumpspace.  You *have* to allow for
disruption to the timetable as I previously outlined.  Or send in such
overwhelming force that you cannot be defeated.  However, such a force may
not be available on hand to deal with a situation, or if it is, what is the
enemy doing elsewhere, and how do you (as in theatre commander, not you
personally) respond to that?

If you just send in the marines, while a follow on force of grunts is
assembled and shipped, you cannot guarantee that the timetable will be met.
Think 18th / 19th century troop deployment, not late 20th.  Yes, the BD
Shocktroopers *will* establish a bridgehead, but they may need to hold it
for weeks before the follow on forces arrive, and they can't be suited up
continuously for that long.

regards,

Matt

Matthew Bond
mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- --------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
.To smash his planet with a near-C asteroid is quite another!"
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 14:42:23
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)

At 03:09 PM 6/27/99 -0400, you wrote:

>I guess the picture Doug paint's says to me that a Marine without
>Battledress skills is not a marine.  And that isn't interesting to me.
>But doing some reading and its not Doug's fault.  Seems GT is
>BD-happy.

It's not that he's not a Marine, but he's been not using the tools with
which he's been trained.  In the ongoing comparison of B Marines with
armored vehicle crews, a few people have pointed out that some tankers do
quite well outside their disabled vehicles.  True enough, but they aren't
doing what you want them to be doing, which is driving around killing enemy
tanks.

IMO, the Marines are *the* strike force.  On occasion, they've had to fight
unarmored.  This isn't what they are trained to do, and it shows.

The template I'm working on for basic Marine characters includes the
following skills:

Battlesuit/12
Beam Weapons/12
Gunner (Rocket Launcher)/12
Guns/12
Armoury (Battlesuit)/12
Electronic Operation (Sensors)/12
Tactics
Camouflage
Savoir-Faire (Marines)

That's just the most basic list.  Getting professional levels in just those
skills could easily eat up 30-40 pts.


>I guess the knife-fighting, jungle-humping marine commando is gone.

That image is an artifact of the 20th Century.  Marines used to be troops
whose job it was to stand in the rigging and snipe at officers on enemy ships.

Anyway, you said the magic word: commando.  Airborne Rangers operate
exactly in the way you describe; knife fighting, sneaky as all hell.  There
are just over 2400 Rangers in the entire US Army.  They are special duty
troops.

The Marines are special troops also.  In 5FW, there are only 8 Marine
Regiments in the entire game, 40 points of combat power (IIRC).  Compare
this the thousands of points of Army troops.  Marines are obviously
something special.

>Whoever is making the BD is getting really wealthy.  If I were the Zhodani,
>for the 6th Frontier War, I'd target the BD manufacturers.

Who says they don't?  One of the biggest Zho thrusts in the 5th War was
towards Rhylanor, perhaps that's where the SM's biggest BD contractor is
based?

Anyway, as a matter of scale the cost of one Marine Regiment is dwarfed by
the cost of providing an Imperial Army division with tanks, APCs, and the
ships to transport them.  You can store a suit of Battledress in about the
same area as a cold sleep berth IMTU (this includes spare parts, a work
bench, etc.)  Since the Marines carry their fire support with them, they
don't need anywhere near as much transportation tonnage.

>A minor point:
>Note:  We're already headed for inconsistencies within GT.
>The inks not dry on Star Mercs.   On page 21, Marine Commandos
>wear Green Berets with a golden sunburst and the words
>"All Means To Victory".  So in the end will we have an OTU with
>regular marines wearing maroon berets and the commandos wearing
>green ones?  I don't care which color but I appreciate consistency.

In the current US Army:

Enlisted men where overseas caps
Officers wear the traditional brimmed cap
Airborne troops wear maroon berets
Rangers wear black berets
Special Forces wear green berets
Drill Sergeants wear campaign hats

and that's not to mention that female soldiers have variants on all the
types mentioned above!

>But green?  That will clash with the maroon dress uniform (not that I'm
>a fan of that either, but I think its time to call a fashion consultant.
>Things are getting ugly).  ;-)

If I'm allowed, I'm changing the uniform color to dark gray with maroon
highlights.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 14:51:54
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps

At 03:39 PM 6/27/99 -0500, Alan wrote:
>If you are going to write the ground forces book for Gurps, please read
Star Mercs P. 116-118. It discusses Imperial Marine Security Detachments
and Task Forces."Normal shipboard duties are carried out in everyday
uniform, supplemented by flak jackets and Gauss Rifles (Gauss pistols for
officers) as necessary. In Alert situations they don battledress." 

OK, I hate to sound like I'm getting pi**ed off, but nowhere have I stated
that Marines are sealed into their armor at the start of Initial training,
only to be released after their tour of duty is up.

Of course they have other uniforms, and they are trained in other weapons.

My point is that a Marine, who by training and experience fights pitched
battles in a suit of Battledress, *might*, I say again *MIGHT*, have the
disadvantage of Combat Paralysis if he is suddenly caught in a firefight
without the protection he's used to having.

Now, if your Marine had to fight blackguards storming the Embassy while in
black tie and tails, it's not likely that he would have this little
problem.  In fact, if he was into martial arts, or just was a real fun
drunk, he'd probably be used to fighting unaugmented.  It was just a
suggestion that someone could use to make an interesting character or NPC.

This is one of the reasons the Marines teach fencing, to keep the men alert
and on guard, if you'll forgive the pun.

>If I were a marine officer I would carry whatever my men carried for a
longarm. The old W.W.II German Sniper adage "Shoot the man with the
carrying the M1 carbine and a pistol" comes to mind.

screw that, shoot the radioman first, then whoever looks like he's competent.

- -- 
Douglas E. Berry - dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol,
violence, or insanity to anyone,
but they've always worked for me.
             -- Hunter S. Thompson

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 15:09:43
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Marines in GAME terms (was Re: Battle Dress . . .)

At 04:09 PM 6/27/99 -0500, Eris wrote:

>IMO, doing Marines Doug's way devalues the entire Marine career when
>it comes to developing characters for most types of Traveller Games.
>Maybe I'm wrong, but I think Doug envisions Imperial Marines as
>being akin to Heinlein's Starship Troopers.

Actually, they're based on the US Army's Airborne Rangers, a group I have a
passing familiarity with.

 Fine, but I don't think
>Trooper characters work in *most* Traveller scenarios.  IMTU (and I
>think most TU's) the appearance, availability and use of Powered
>Battlesuits is far from routine.  In most cases, Player Characters,
>simply don't have access to them, and a skill set that focuses on
>them is unused and wasted.

OK, but Ground Forces is the sourcebook for the Imperial Military.  Star
Mercs has wonderful templates for former members of the herd.  This book is
for those who want to play active duty folks.

So why play a Marine?  That Marine is going to have been more places, and
have more technical skills that his Army counterpart.  The Marine will have
access to skills that would make him a valued crewman on a small merchant.
He will even have decent levels of military skills.  The ex soldiers will
have seen starships as a passenger, with pissed off Navy crewmembers
telling them to stay in the damn hold and don't touch anything!

So the Marine would be a more balanced character for most groups with their
own spaceship.  For a group riding with others, take along the ex-grunt for
better combat power.

>Conceptually, when a player says, "I want my character to have
>been a Marine."  I'm thinking Pournelle's Line Marine (Johnny
>Christian Falkenberg's boys) not a Heinlein Starship Trooper.  I
>expect lots of infantry "grunt" skills like combat rifeman, ground
>tactics, brawling, forward observer and wilderness survival on that
>character sheet.  

When I joined the infantry, I didn't think that my job skills would include
maintaining 10 ton armored vehicles and operating a multi channel radio.
If the player wants that kind of character, there is going to be an Army
Jump Infantry template that is much more what you are describing.

<snip>

>So, Doug, in your vision how do we get a Joe instead of a Sam out of
>the Marine career?  Does Joe come from the Army, while Sam comes
>from the Marines?

As I've pointed out above, Sam is going to have more ship orientated
skills, and probably been more places (more Area Knowledge and Language
skills).  An old Gunnery Sergeant could legitimately spend a dozen or two
points on AK just of Startowns in the game area!

Joe is going to have more combat skills, but might not be all that
interesting when there isn't combat around (unless he was Combat Engineer
or something.)

So Sam is the ship's steward (spent some time as the valet for a Marine
Vice Marshal), helps tinker with the engineer (some mechanical and
engineering skills from long deployments), and still provides the kind of
muscle you describe in the text I snipped.


- -- 

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html 

"In the long run luck is given only to the efficient." 
           -Helmuth von Moltke, Imperial German Army

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 15:11:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Nukes and Dampers

At 02:06 PM 6/27/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Actually, this is a good question.  Do nuke dampers permanently
>'absorb' troublesome radiation or do they 'dampen' it only so long
>as it it powered?

I believe the canonical description has them either speeding up or slowing
down the natural process, for example causing nuclear materials to decay
quickly to harmlessness, or surpressing it long enough for clean up.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 15:15:19
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

At 02:34 PM 6/27/99 -0400, you wrote:

>	Incredably advanced, highly intelligent, and specialized
>	Moties that cannot solve a basic biological problem.


They've tried.  Repeatedly.  The problem is that if the don't reproduce,
they die.  I got the impression that many, many Crazy Eddies tried to break
the connection between pregancy and survival.

It's a basic problem because we don't have it.  What's the solution to our
basic problem:

We can't easily expand through the universe because we need to breathe.  So
the easy question is how do we stop breathing.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 15:18:42
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

At 12:32 PM 6/27/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Propagation of the species is hard-wired deep within our bio-chemical
>framework. Hard to look at the problem objectively, IMHO.

You better believe it.

One of the side effects of my illness and chemo was a near total loss of
sexual desire.  You cannot *belive* how sex-drenched this culture is when
your not interested.

The urge to mate is very strong in humans, often over-riding intelligence.
In the Moties it is as vital as eating.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 18:21:20 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Marines in GAME terms (was Re: Battle Dress . . .)

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Yesterday, I posted a suggestion that has been mostly ignored.  I'll
> briefly present the gest of it again.
>
>    All Marines are combat rifemen first and specialists second.

IIRC, and I'm fairly confident of this, in the US Marines,
you don't get out of basic training without qualifying as
a Marksman.

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 15:36:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Marines in GAME terms (was Re: Battle Dress . . .)

At 06:21 PM 6/27/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>
>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>> Yesterday, I posted a suggestion that has been mostly ignored.  I'll
>> briefly present the gest of it again.
>>
>>    All Marines are combat rifemen first and specialists second.
>
>IIRC, and I'm fairly confident of this, in the US Marines,
>you don't get out of basic training without qualifying as
>a Marksman.

Neither do you in the Army.  In fact, I'm not aware of any military
organization in the Western world that *doesn't* require basic skill with
the service arm.

Now, how often do the members of a Marine Air Wing go out and practise
infantry tactics?  How about Marine tankers?  Do they spend enough time out
of the shell to realistically call themselves skilled infantry?

Infantry is a very difficult discipline, and requires constant traing and
drill to master.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 20:03:28 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers) 

> Hypercleats writes:
> "I don't see what physical laws the Moties break, and the 
> reason for keeping them bottled up(see below) would apply 
> in ST as well, wouldn't it?"
> 
> 	Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that the Moties broke
> 	specific laws (though that is exactly what I did).
> 	What I found difficult to take were things such as:
> 
> 	A Motie with no tools able to see and manipulate 
> 	microcircuits in a sealed unit.
> 
> 	Unintelligent "Watchmakers" with absolutely no concept
> 	of how a Langston Field works, without tools or
> 	plans or any clues about how many (most?) of the 
> 	components work, not only pull it appart but redesign
> 	it and build a MUCH improved unit with capabilities
> 	that the original did not have.
> 
> 	Incredably advanced, highly intelligent, and specialized
> 	Moties that cannot solve a basic biological problem.
> 
> 	It has been a while since I read the books, but I also 
> 	found that, despite their specializations, they performed
> 	quite well at other things (other than combat). In Star
> 	Trek I have aliens that can absorb electrical, heat, or
> 	photon energy and replicate themselves instantly, or use 
> 	that energy to electrocute nearby Starfleet Redshirts. 
> 	That's OK, the Organians will keep them in line if they 
> 	get out of hand. There are "energy" beings with entirely
> 	undefined "energy" without matter floating around and
> 	doing their thing. Naturally occuring organisms that can,
> 	for no other reason than the plot, resist phaser blasts
> 	easily. Lots of fun, but definitly not Traveller.


OK, *one* thing you guys are forgetting is that the Moties used genetic 
engineering on themselves and other native species to enhance their 
abilities.  The three arm modification common to most Motie subspecies is the 
major case in point.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 17:53:07 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

>
> OK, *one* thing you guys are forgetting is that the Moties used genetic
> engineering on themselves and other native species to enhance their
> abilities.  The three arm modification common to most Motie subspecies is the
> major case in point.

Yes, at least I was forgetting that, where did I put that book? ;) The
"Watchmakers" were engineered "Motie-monkeys", right? Was their breed-or-die
syndrome related to the genetic engineering?

How many races in the Imperium have modified themselves? The Vagyr, Dolphins,
etc. don't count as they were uplifted by another race. I consider the
Jonkereen(sp?) to be close to what I am talking about, although it is more like
an isolated project. Have any species taken it to the extreme that the Moties
did, where the entire population is altered even on a socio-economic military and
psychological level? Just curious.

BZA

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #778
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 28 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 779



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers) 
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re: Imperial Marines...
Armor update
Re: Armor update
Re: Heretic system presence (was Hexagons)
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines...
CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 
Re: Imperial Marines...
Sandcasters
Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 
Re: Imperial Marines
RE: Armor update

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 21:04:01 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers) 

> >
> > OK, *one* thing you guys are forgetting is that the Moties used genetic
> > engineering on themselves and other native species to enhance their
> > abilities.  The three arm modification common to most Motie subspecies is the
> > major case in point.
> 
> Yes, at least I was forgetting that, where did I put that book? ;) The
> "Watchmakers" were engineered "Motie-monkeys", right? Was their breed-or-die
> syndrome related to the genetic engineering?

Yeah, it was.  I forget the reasoning behind it, though.  But *all* Moties 
are hermaphroditic, which isn't a bad lil survival trait...
 
> How many races in the Imperium have modified themselves? The Vagyr, Dolphins,
> etc. don't count as they were uplifted by another race. I consider the
> Jonkereen(sp?) to be close to what I am talking about, although it is more like
> an isolated project. Have any species taken it to the extreme that the Moties
> did, where the entire population is altered even on a socio-economic military and
> psychological level? Just curious.

Humaniti uplifted the dolphins.  And there's a not-quite canon reference to 
uplifted jabberwocks on the BARD pages.  I have no knowledge of genetic 
engineering on an entire population level that I'm allowed to talk about; 
some of my PBEM players read this list!  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:14:48 +1000
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

Dear Folks -

Terry disagreed with Doug as follows:
>Number 1. Not every use of marines will involve
>battle dress.

From (my less than perfect) memory, I would have agreed... I thought that
standard Marine gear was the Combat Environment Suit plus gauss rifle, with
the occasional support-weapon (FGMP) wielder in battle dress.

Certainly, the Assault groups are full battle dress - in fact, they use
Assault Battle Dress, the AF 22 one with knee greaves and the
skimpy-looking Cloth skirt (if you are brave, insert wolf-whistle here).
These guys would certainly be candidates for Combat Paralysis. [Hey, they
may even have some sort of cross-dressing quirk... <smack!> OK, I'll be
good! <whimper>]

Even so, at firebases in "undress" they still need to know what to do when
it "drops in the pot" and they don't have the required 10 mins to "dress".
(Or do they "don" their armour - y'know, like in all those news reports
about firemen, when they "don breathing apparatus" ;-).
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 21:43:45 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

In a message dated 6/27/99 8:54:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
eris@sierratel.com writes:

<< Was their breed-or-die
 syndrome related to the genetic engineering? >>
Nope...the way I remember it  , the Moties started out that way...It's the 
"one thing" that they couldn't breed out of their genetic make-up...
BobS

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:37:16 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

- -----Original Message-----
From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Sunday, June 27, 1999 8:11 AM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...


>As the history old books say, it was to save the lives of all the GI's that
>would have to fight for the main islands, but the new books say that the
>American commanders knew the Japanese were about to capitulate, but did not
>tell Truman... the military simply wanted a live test bed for the two
>designs while they could use it against the monster that was Japan, the
>baby-eating rapists that they were (as they were seen at the time anyway).


Well, I remember that a little while ago there was a raging flamewar on just
this topic. I'd really rather not get into it. I used it as an example to
point out the use of "instructional" excessive force is not unknown to the
world.

>No, but I knew of several games once where the IM's were based heavily on
US
>Marines (I didn't know of any based upon the British?) of WWII to Vietnam
>era, and I'm sure a lot probably still are (IMHO).  In My game, I had a
>generic variety, SF, not real-world based at all.


If somebody wants to use a "template" from history for his Marines, that's
cool, but I personally just can't see it that way.

>Which is why they probably take them out of their suits to fight like real
>men in certain conflicts.  Personally, I see BD skills no different than
any
>land-based vehicular skill, the troopie with BD-2 skill can use the suit
>better than his mate with BD-1, just like the ground-car -2 driver can keep
>his vehicle under control better than the Ground-car -1 driver.


I think that we aren't on the same page here with the concept of powered
armor. I don't know if there's a way to rectify this. Using the suit is not
simply climbing in behind the wheel and driving around.

>Well, and again, this is just me... but I have never seen BD use as such an
>expensive skill as being a pilot.  And I have never seen EVERY IM character
>rolled as having BD skill, yet they still went to war and won awards (using
>Book 4).  This means that if ALL marines to see combat are BD equipped,
that
>a 0-level BD skilled marine performed just as good (or better) as a 1-, 2-,
>3-, 4-, 5-level BD skilled marine... why bother teaching the skill at all?


Well, I'm not going to argue with Book 4. I will say that, despite the fact
I like the concept of a random character generation system that creates a
life history, it does have its failing. It was possible, for example, to
come out with a character who had little or no "useful" skills at all. A
free trader crewman who had bow combat, admin and groundcar skills, for
example. ;)

I'm being harsh toward the system, as that was something that turned most of
the people I knew off to Traveller. I find it endearing and interesting to a
large extent, but it also has some serious flaws. There were many times that
people went into the system expecting Han Solo who came out with a
distinctly unromantic character.

>Like I said, the tankers I know would dispute this heartily.  Also, I know
>several of those have attended the same survival courses as the Aussie
north
>enders and SAS quite successfully with high ratings.  To say they are
>unskilled outside of their vehicles is not a good thing at all, nor is it
>truthful.


Yes. And there will be Imperial Marines who will be able to match up pound
for pound and ounce for ounce with infantry soldiers. I honestly think that
you're missing the point here. I also think that you're guilty of what you
accuse me of, you're selling the infantryman short. After all, if every tank
crew is actually comparable to soldiers from hardcore kickass infantry
units, why bother spending money and time on training infantry to be
infantry?

Besides, you're stacking the deck in your favor again. ;)

You're talking about a survival course. I'm not denying that tank crews and
pilots are trained for survival. The government spent alot of money on their
specialized training, and any experience they've had on the battlefield is
invaluable, even if it was the kind of experience that got their tank
disabled. You want people like this to survive, get back to base, and hop
into another vehicle to perform the job they've been trained to do.

>And why call them Imperial Marines?  Why not call them "Suiters" or some
>such, like you call armour crews "Tankers" for example.  The line of
thought
>I see here is that Marines are like unskilled soldiers who can only perform
>with a comodicum of skill in a "vehicle" (BD) they are skilled in using.
It
>was kinda put forward that tankers are unskilled soldiers without their
>vehicles, so I see the same difference with IM's occuring with this
argument


The line of thought I see from you is that training and experience don't
factor in at all. Any guy with a gun is magically as well trained and has
the same skills and experiences that an infantry soldier has... which is
selling the infantry soldier short.

I am not saying that tankers are completely unskilled when not in their
vehicles. I am saying that the bulk of their specialized training is utterly
worthless if they don't have a big metal beast to ride in. Their talents,
skills and abilities go to waste if they are not in a tank. I don't think
that this is at all unrealistic.

>It sounds to me that IM's cannot fight at all?  No real basic infantry-like
>training?  They don't have to be skilled at unarmed combat and only lightly
>skilled in small-arms usage.

Not at all. I think, though, that there's something that hasn't been
communicated yet, and this discussion hinges on it:

This debate arose because Doug said he was going to put disadvantage into
his Imperial marine templates for a GURPS book. This does not mean that
every single Imperial marine will actually have this disadvantage, nor does
it mean that every single Imperial marine without this disadvantage is a
candy-ass without his suit. What it means is that there will be a template,
a group of skills, advantages and disadvantages. Some will be required,
others won't be. In the case of disadvantages, the template will say
something like "100 points in the following disadvantages." There will be a
couple hundred points worth of disadvantages, including the one that makes a
marine a candy-ass without his powered armor. A marine character will not
have to take this disadvantage. It's just one of many possible
disadvantages. In addition, the disadvantage itself is not crippling all of
the time. It is possible for a character with this disadvantage to fight.
Sometimes, however, the Imperial marine will freeze up when the adrenaline
dies down and he realizes that he's in a hot LZ without his lobster suit.
That's what the disadvantage means.

>They have a suit that does everything for
>them... as long as you can see your target, you will have a good chance to
>kill it.  So I assume that with this line of thought, if you take the
>"average" IM (not the one that works out doing kickboxing) out of his suit
>and put him into a bar brawl against an Imperial grunt (who is trained to
>kill with whatever he has handy)... the grunt will win?  My goodness, I
>can't see any John Wayne like movies of the Imperial Marine Corp!  ;^)

No. That's not what I'm saying at all. You're taking what I'm saying to the
extreme. This might be my fault, or you just might be being difficult ;)

The vehicle they're in does many, many things for them, but they're not
unskilled. In order to use it properly, they have to be fast, they have to
have good judgement, and they have to be trained heavily in *battle dress*
small unit tactics. They have to be able to read the coded information on
their HUDs and know what those mean while firing their fusion gun at an
enemy entrenchment and keeping a lock for their shoulder-mounted missile
launcher on that converted mining drone with the heavy drilling laser that
floated over the nearby ridge just
a second and a half ago.

They aren't unskilled, it's just that their training, their skills and their
experiences do not happen to be those of your basic grunt.


Can they fight outside of armor? Sure. I'm not disagreeing with this, and it
would appear that Doug isn't disagreeing with this either.

>But we are talking about a trained ground troopie, not a pilot or tanker.
>He is still a troopie in a suit.  I still see an IM in basic training
>learning to be a Grunt before he gets close to a suit that possibly doesn't
>require the same training as a tank (where you have 3-5 people trained in
>their individual jobs and in acting as a "hive mind" for one unit -- the
>tank) or much less than an aircraft.


Battle dress tactics will be different than infantry tactics. Battle dress
skills will be different than infantry skills. Battle dress, at least as far
as I've seen, is not simply a suit of armor. It is a complicated
technological wonder, the absolute greatest force multiplier a single person
can pilot.

>I see IM's doing survival courses, firing courses, medical courses (first
>aid), stealth training, etc., just like a grunt.  I can see them fielded
>without BD in combat to prove worthy of using BD.


Oh... I must have missed that part in the modern world where pilots and
tankers prove themselves in combat before being allowed to handle their
vehicles ;)

This creates a rather interesting problem both in GURPS and in reality.
There are only so many hours in a day to train. There is only so much a
single person can retain. If you'll pardon me for saying so, what you're
proposing sounds to me like something out of a comic book.

>I wouldn't give a soldier a suit if he didn't know everything else.

Everything? Does that include classical Vilani literature? ;)

Seriously though, where does the line get drawn? For example, every infantry
soldier learns some first aid. Is every infantry soldier as good as a combat
medic? I mean, I don't want to give a rifle, a helmet and a flak vest to
somebody unless they know *everything*.

How about a pilot? Does a pilot have to be a field medic, a commando, and a
computer repairman before he gets his hands on a plane? The Imperium is
going to have to draw the line somewhere.

>The
>incidence of armour loss on the battlefield would be reasonably med-high,
so
>would the loss of BD... not a feasable bad-arsed reputation when you lose
>the "Battle of Naked Trooper" because "To many troops lost their BD, caused
>a complete route.  Enemy swarmed over our armour support and they had to be
>abandoned... bloody cowardly marines!"  Not one for the recruiting
poster...
>plus all the war correspondence filming IM troops without armour cowering
>and/or fleeing in every battle where their BD is lost!


I apologize if I say, again, this sounds a bit unrealistic. You're expecting
Imperial marines to be Rambo. I disagree strongly with this. I'm not saying
that they shouldn't be tough. I'm just saying that their skin isn't
bulletproof.

Do you honestly think that any single human being without a suit of powered
armor is equal to with a suit of powered armor? I am really baffled here. If
the combat zone is hot enough to kill a battle dress piloting marine, the
marine has very little chance of surviving no matter how many skills or how
much experience he has.

>It just doesn't jell with how I (again, it's my opinion) imagine a fierce
>Imperial Marine operates...


It seems to me that you expect superheroic levels of ability from human
beings. To assume that a single man with a sidearm or rifle would be able to
survive and *win* a combat that took out his battle dress is, well, not
particularly realistic.

>As opposed to a battlefield hostile enough to warrant grunts in BD (unless
I
>missed that thing I mentioned about only marines having such armour) with
>armour support?


Now you're just being argumentative. The Imperial army guys who use battle
dress will be just as specialized as Imperial marines.

>Which puts him in the situation where, if there are no other "vehicles"
>(suits) available to him for whatever reasons, our big bad marine is
>relegated to the field kitchens out of the way of the real fighting men?
>Makes that cutlass sensible now :^)


If marines are required on the battlefield an unarmored man will have little
chance of surviving no matter how many skills he has. Period. There is no
changing this, at least not realistically. Plasma guns, fusion guns and
their splashes, radiation and blasts from meson sleds... There are *no*
"real fighting men" on a battlefield like that. There are no guys with
sidearms and Imperial issue coveralls that will have the slightest chance of
turning the tide of battle.

>I'm not having a go at you personally, I'm just trying to make sense of the
>logic of an impressively cudo'ed fighting force that can't seem to perform
>without the best equipment, when the lowly grunt can kill with his bear
>hands if required.


I didn't think that you were having a go at me personally. It's okay.

<shrug> You're overstating and / or misunderstanding the comments and claims
I made. I can't help that. I never said that Imperial marines are helpless
as babies without their suits. I did say that they are not on par with an
infantry soldier in the same situation. I did say that the skill set of an
Imperial marine is entirely different than that of an infantry soldier.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 20:09:11 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: Armor update

Hot on the heels of the current armor debate (I love openings like that :),
I thought I'd let everyone know of the current progress I'm making on
vac-formed combat armor.  In the last couple of days I've purchased some
initial plastic stock, built a vacuum table ('cept I have to redo the
neoprene bed), built a couple of vac frames, and have just started sculpting
parts.  As soon as I can get my vid capture system back up, I'll start
posting progress shots.

Back to your normally scheduled Marine debate :)

Best,
Jesse

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:59:26 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Armor update

But jesse...I saw your design plans, I really think the groinal laser in your 
suit is too much...paging Dr Freud ya know.     ;-)

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 01:30:31 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: Heretic system presence (was Hexagons)

At 10:45 AM 6/26/99 -0300, Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>        Hi, Rob...  Check out my 2D near-star map on my website...  going 2D
>with the gliese data causes problems...  you can't move for fear of bumping
>into a star-system.  My map is pretty "empty" by comparison because I have
>eye-ball filtered out any thing that wasn't main sequence, except those with
>cool names =).  The 2D Gliese is playable that way.
>	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
>		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"

Did I mention that your site and Adam Getchell's (The guy who started the
FTL == Time Travel thread) campaign, http://hapkido.ucdavis.edu/traveller/
were two of the things that made me disgusted at how SOFT SF my campaign
world was, and started me on this absolute gearhead "Scout" mind set. _I_
will have the most believable campaign world! I WILL! I WILL! (Not that
anyone will ever play in it, I just love creating it!)

(Should I add FTL, SF, gearhead, and GG to my spell checker dictionary?)
(Never mind 'traveller'. Merriam-Webster lists it as a variant spelling.)
- -- 
At last, the complete guide to determining the eclipses of gas giants,
and how they impact the civilizations that live on tidally locked,
habitable planets surrounding said GG.  -- Special supplement, by
Rob Brady				robb a@t datatone d.o.t com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 21:10:37 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 15:36:35
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>Subject: Re: Marines in GAME terms (was Re: Battle Dress . . .)
>
>Now, how often do the members of a Marine Air Wing go out and practise
>infantry tactics?  How about Marine tankers?  Do they spend enough time out
>of the shell to realistically call themselves skilled infantry?

"Every Marine a Rifleman." They really do live it, too. Every Marine, from
Recruit Private to the Commandant himself, qualifies with the rifle every
year -- no other service that I know of can make that claim; the Army
certainly can't. If they expect to stay in the Marines, they'll do a damn
sight better than simply qualify, too.

Every Marine aviator does a tour as an infantry platoon leader *before*
he's allowed to go to flight school, so that he never forgets his mission:
support to the infantry. They also spend a huge fraction of their careers
in ANGLICOs and other direct support positions, humping along with the
infantry.

Marine tankers do the complete infantry course, then go to Fort Knox to
learn the tank part from the Army; same story for the artillerymen. The
ones I know are only passing good tankers, because they spend so much time
worrying about the infantry they support. When there are *at most* four
tanks in a battalion landing team (by far the most common MAGTF), this
makes a certain amount of sense -- they don't really engage in mounted
warfare per se all that often, and they don't have the depth of experience
available to an Army armored unit.

I have a tremendous amount of professional respect for the USMC and their
brethren of other nationalities (I've served with Dutch and Norwegian
Marines as well). The Army would do well to adopt much of what they teach,
starting with the notion that it should be *hard* to graduate basic and a
matter of pride to call yourself a Marine.

US Army Rangers are a very poor model for what the Imperial Marines are
asked to do: they are far too specialized, though they are wonderfully good
at what they do. Use them instead for the Sylean Rangers, Imperial Marine
Commandos, and other special purpose forces. Whatever their qualifications,
Imperial Marines are a general purpose force; in fact, they are all too
often the *only* force available for whatever crisis is at hand.

Christopher B. Thrash
Major, U.S. Cavalry
Aviator
former Sergeant, U.S. Army Infantry

P.S. I cannot recommend too highly _Warfighting_ (Lt. Col. H.T. Hayden,
ed), which is a reprint of the USMC's FMFM 1 Warfighting, FMFM 1-1
Campaigning, and FMFM 1-3 Tactics, all in one volume. I make all my
lieutenants read FMFM 1-3 for professional development, because it is the
single best description of what we are trying to achieve in training, and
it addresses all arms -- infantry, aviation, support -- rather than just
the combat types.

Tom Clancy's _Marine_ also has a pretty fair laundry list of all the
missions a MAGTF is expected to undertake. 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 23:14:32 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

Chris Seamans wrote:

> I apologize if I say, again, this sounds a bit unrealistic. You're expecting
> Imperial marines to be Rambo. I disagree strongly with this. I'm not saying
> that they shouldn't be tough. I'm just saying that their skin isn't
> bulletproof.

Wasn't Rambo in the Army?

<g,d,r>

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 23:17:26 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 

> -----Original Message-----
> >Well, and again, this is just me... but I have never seen BD use as such an
> >expensive skill as being a pilot.  And I have never seen EVERY IM character
> >rolled as having BD skill, yet they still went to war and won awards (using
> >Book 4).  This means that if ALL marines to see combat are BD equipped,
> that
> >a 0-level BD skilled marine performed just as good (or better) as a 1-, 2-,
> >3-, 4-, 5-level BD skilled marine... why bother teaching the skill at all?
> 
> 
> Well, I'm not going to argue with Book 4. I will say that, despite the fact
> I like the concept of a random character generation system that creates a
> life history, it does have its failing. It was possible, for example, to
> come out with a character who had little or no "useful" skills at all. A
> free trader crewman who had bow combat, admin and groundcar skills, for
> example. ;)

What's useless about bow combat and groundcar skills for a free trader 
crewman?  If you're constantly bouncing about on low tech planets, ground 
cars are usually readily availiable, as are bows.  And admin helps you cut 
through the paperwork to get offplanet faster.  The big cash scores are gonna 
be *away* from more 'civilised' worlds.
 
> I'm being harsh toward the system, as that was something that turned most of
> the people I knew off to Traveller. I find it endearing and interesting to a
> large extent, but it also has some serious flaws. There were many times that
> people went into the system expecting Han Solo who came out with a
> distinctly unromantic character.

The system makes *useable* characters.  That was its purpose.
 
Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 23:53:53 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Sunday, June 27, 1999 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...


>Wasn't Rambo in the Army?
>
><g,d,r>


If you were Rambo, you wouldn't have to duck and run ;)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 00:01:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael A Newman <manst4+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Sandcasters

What is canon as to how sandcasters are used?  Do they the cast a cloud
which is then held in place around the ship, in some sort of
field-thingie?  Or do they repeatedly cast new clouds as they are lost to
vector changes?  Are they cast in expectation of incoming fire from
specific sources, or are they used constantly when in combat situations,
as in "Raise shields?"  None of the above?
Thanks,
Michael

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 00:07:15 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Sunday, June 27, 1999 11:20 PM
Subject: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)


>What's useless about bow combat and groundcar skills for a free trader
>crewman?  If you're constantly bouncing about on low tech planets, ground
>cars are usually readily availiable, as are bows.  And admin helps you cut
>through the paperwork to get offplanet faster.  The big cash scores are
gonna
>be *away* from more 'civilised' worlds.


I'm especially intrigued by that last part: the big cash scores are going to
be *away* from more 'civilized' worlds. How do you mean exactly?

Admin isn't useless for a trader. I know. However, there were times that
this was the only useful skill I ever rolled for a character. I consider bow
combat useless as I have yet to actual see a bow used in a Traveller
campaign. Ground car is marginally useful at best.

Am I to believe that free traders squeeze these guys with useless skills on
their ships just in case they ever need someone to use a bow or drive a car
with wheels? The classic Traveller system was a system that was light on
starting skill points anyway, and it was a little while before they even
introduced a method to learn new skills or improve old ones.

>The system makes *useable* characters.  That was its purpose.


Who wants a character that's usable if it's not much fun to use?

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 23:58:13 -0500
From: "Brian T. Simmons" <bsimmons@onramp.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

- -----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Sunday, 27 Jun 99 22:13
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines


>>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 15:36:35
>>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>>Subject: Re: Marines in GAME terms (was Re: Battle Dress . . .)
>>
>>Now, how often do the members of a Marine Air Wing go out and practise
>>infantry tactics?  How about Marine tankers?  Do they spend enough time
out
>>of the shell to realistically call themselves skilled infantry?
>
>"Every Marine a Rifleman." They really do live it, too. Every Marine, from
>Recruit Private to the Commandant himself, qualifies with the rifle every
>year -- no other service that I know of can make that claim; the Army
>certainly can't. If they expect to stay in the Marines, they'll do a damn
>sight better than simply qualify, too.


> <snip>

>Christopher B. Thrash
>Major, U.S. Cavalry
>Aviator
>former Sergeant, U.S. Army Infantry
>

    Major, what Army are you in?  I may have only been lowly Specialist
(E-4, one rank below Sergeant E-5), and I was just generator mechanic, but I
know that I qualified every six months with my M16. Plus once a week for at
least four hours one day during the time called Sergeant's Time we trained
on the basics combat and survival skills. Keep in mind, as a mechanic my job
was to keep our generators up and running.
    I do know that as much as I trained in the basics combat skills, the
Marines must do it twice as much.  To use an old term, They are Hard Core.
You have to look at the big picture, what happens when that aircraft get
shot out from underneath them or there tank gets hit in the tracks.  They
are on foot and become Infantry.  So they have to know what to do or they
will be someone else's burden and that will just get more troops killed or
wounded.
    Even I, as a mechanic, I knew how to shoot, to read a map, to move under
fire, what grenade is best for what job and how to drop another human at 300
meters with my M16. I could set claymores and fire light anti-tank weapons
too.  The training even goes the other way also, I trained to drive, load
and fire a M-1 Abrams  while I was with Support Battalion that supported two
Armored Cavalry Brigades and a Mechanized Infantry.  The Infantry had
Bradlys, but you could not pay me enough to get in those in combat.
    While I was with a Combat Engineering Battalion I was trained in the use
of high explosives.  If I had some C-4 and Det-cord I could  take out a
bridge or blow out other things to hamper the enemy.
    I was even in two different Combat Aviation Brigade while stationed at
Ft. Hood, Texas. One flew Cobras and the other Apaches.  And there I trained
just as hard in two outings to the National Training Center (NTC) at Fort
Irwin, California in the basics of land and air tactics.

    So you could say that in a short amount of time a trooper could have the
opportunities  to learn a lot of combat oriented skills, and some could be
enough to be called "skilled" in the other areas out side of there assigned
duties.

Brian T. Simmons
former Specialist (E-4), U.S. Army

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 22:31:04 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Armor update

Hey, the groinal thing "worked" for Kryton, didn't it?  :)

Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of
> Tascelt@aol.com
> Sent: Sunday, June 27, 1999 7:59 PM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Armor update
> 
> 
> But jesse...I saw your design plans, I really think the groinal 
> laser in your 
> suit is too much...paging Dr Freud ya know.     ;-)
> 
> TAS
> 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #779
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 28 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 780



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Dragon*Con
Re: CT Skills
Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 
Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 
Re: CT Skills
Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 
Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 
Re: CT Skills
Re: CT Skills

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 01:14:03 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> Date: Sunday, June 27, 1999 11:20 PM
> Subject: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)
> 
> 
> >What's useless about bow combat and groundcar skills for a free trader
> >crewman?  If you're constantly bouncing about on low tech planets, ground
> >cars are usually readily availiable, as are bows.  And admin helps you cut
> >through the paperwork to get offplanet faster.  The big cash scores are
> gonna
> >be *away* from more 'civilised' worlds.
> 
> 
> I'm especially intrigued by that last part: the big cash scores are going to
> be *away* from more 'civilized' worlds. How do you mean exactly?

Because the megacorps are going to be trying to corner the markets on the 
civilised worlds.  I'm not saying *every* jerkwater planet's gonna make you a 
killing, just that it's more likely that an independent will do better on one 
than trying to cut out a megacorp on a high pop TL15 planet.  They just won't 
have the resources to compete.
 
> Admin isn't useless for a trader. I know. However, there were times that
> this was the only useful skill I ever rolled for a character. I consider bow
> combat useless as I have yet to actual see a bow used in a Traveller
> campaign. Ground car is marginally useful at best.
> 
> Am I to believe that free traders squeeze these guys with useless skills on
> their ships just in case they ever need someone to use a bow or drive a car
> with wheels? The classic Traveller system was a system that was light on
> starting skill points anyway, and it was a little while before they even
> introduced a method to learn new skills or improve old ones.

Where have you been adventuring???
 
> >The system makes *useable* characters.  That was its purpose.
> 
> 
> Who wants a character that's usable if it's not much fun to use?

Fun is what you make of it.  Do you *REALLY* wanna play a character who's so 
over the top that *nothing* is a challange for him?  Not me.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 00:25:24 -0700
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

At 05:53 PM 6/27/99 -0700, BZA wrote:

>How many races in the Imperium have modified themselves? The Vagyr, Dolphins,
>etc. don't count as they were uplifted by another race. I consider the
>Jonkereen(sp?) to be close to what I am talking about, although it is more 
>like
>an isolated project. Have any species taken it to the extreme that the Moties
>did, where the entire population is altered even on a socio-economic 
>military and
>psychological level? Just curious.
The only race that I can think of that modified itself is Humaniti, 
specifically Solomani and Vilani (Imperial).


Jimmy Simpson
	nimrodd@fastlane.net
"Cannot say.
  Saying, I would know.
  Do not know.
  So cannot say."
		-Zathras (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 00:38:33 -0700
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@santech.com>
Subject: Dragon*Con

I sent this query out before, but I have since rebuilt my computer, so I 
ask again.
Is anybody on this list going to Dragon*Con over the July 4th weekend?
In moving over and cleaning up my e-mail I found that I had received one 
response, are there any others out there?


Jimmy Simpson
       nimrodd@fastlane.net

"You can get more with a kind word
      and a 2 x 4,
than you can with just a kind word."
                          -Marcus Cole (Babylon 5)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 01:15:30 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

On 06/28/99 at 12:07 AM,  "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> said:

>From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>

>>What's useless about bow combat and groundcar skills for a free trader
>>crewman?  If you're constantly bouncing about on low tech planets, ground
>>cars are usually readily availiable, as are bows.  And admin helps you cut
>>through the paperwork to get offplanet faster.  The big cash scores are
>>gonna be *away* from more 'civilised' worlds.

>I'm especially intrigued by that last part: the big cash scores are
>going to be *away* from more 'civilized' worlds. How do you mean
>exactly?

>Admin isn't useless for a trader. I know. However, there were times
>that this was the only useful skill I ever rolled for a character. I
>consider bow combat useless as I have yet to actual see a bow used in
>a Traveller campaign. Ground car is marginally useful at best.

Different campaign styles probably.  I have seen bow's used a time
or two, but you are right it's not what I'd call a very *useful*
skill.  ;-) BTW, I looked at my copy of B1 just now and didn't see a
Bow skill in the Merchant's career.  I know it showed up eventually,
but Bow skill wasn't in my B1 at all.

OTOH, ground car is an *extremely* useful skill when ground
transportation is the norm on a planet and grav vehicle is the norm
for the TL of the group in general.  Famous last words, "Hey, I can
drive an air-raft, of course I can drive that truck!"

>Am I to believe that free traders squeeze these guys with useless
>skills on their ships just in case they ever need someone to use a
>bow or drive a car with wheels? 

Ha! Ha! It's not *that* bad. ;->

>The classic Traveller system was a system that was light on
>starting skill points anyway, and it was a little while before they
>even introduced a method to learn new skills or improve old ones.

Oh, I agree with you on that.  CT *was* a little light on skills,
and lighter on skill improvement.  There are howevers to both of
those objections, though.

In CT the PC could attempt any "task" with or without a skill in
that area, there were some hefty -DM's for no expertise in some
cases.  So, the PC wasn't *quite* as limited as his character sheet
might seem to indcate.

In character generation you only got 1 or 2 skills every 4 years.
Given that you shouldn't expect characters to advance very fast in
game play.  That's why I don't think CT considered skill improvement
to be especially important.  If a campaign continued for 3, 4, 5
years the Ref (to use CT terminology) could just pick, or tell the
player to pick a skill to go up a point. ;->

>>The system makes *useable* characters.  That was its purpose.

>Who wants a character that's usable if it's not much fun to use?

Um, well, we could always counter with how much fun the character is
depends more on how you play them than what is on their character
sheet. ;-J  You do have a point, though.

I don't much care for point based chargen, that's my biggest
problem with GURPS. 

Personally, I think a mix of random selection, career packages, and
a little free-choice gives the most "interesting" characters.

Something like...

Pre-Career
    Randomly select Attributes

    Choose a small set of background skills from lists that vary
    based on the PC's Social Class and homeworld factors (TL, Hydro,
    Atmos, etc)

Career
    First Career:  Receive a small set of Career/Occupation Skills
    corresponding to "Basic/Advanced Training"
    
    Succeeding Careers:  Receive a potentially smaller set of skills
                        (if you already have that skill you don't
                        get an inprovement)
    
    Each 2 year term
        Randomly select:  1 skill from Career Occupation table
                          1 skill from Career Life table
                          1 skill from Career Mission table
                          
        Freely choose 1 skill as a hobby/interest (with GM approval)
        
        On Commission receive a small set of Officer skills
        
        On promotion 1 skill at random from one of the tables (BTW,
                    I've never quite understood why you get a skill
                    when you are promoted.  It seems to me you'd get
                    a promotion when you reach certain milestones,
                    seniority or skill levels.)

What does this remind you of, CT Advanced? ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 02:16:33 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)


>Because the megacorps are going to be trying to corner the markets on the
>civilised worlds.  I'm not saying *every* jerkwater planet's gonna make you
a
>killing, just that it's more likely that an independent will do better on
one
>than trying to cut out a megacorp on a high pop TL15 planet.  They just
won't
>have the resources to compete.


Fair enough, not too far from my own idea of trade. Generally, in my
developed areas, tramps carry the stuff the megacorps don't want to carry.
In other words, the kind of stuff that makes for good adventures and
scenarios.

Before: "What's that? You need to get an adult Narinvan Mantis from Cameron
to Wendell? Sure, we can do that!"

After: "That jerk never told us that its diamond-hard teeth could rend
through the standard transport cage. <sigh> Oh well, hopefully I can find
another engineer at Wendell Down."

>> Am I to believe that free traders squeeze these guys with useless skills
on
>> their ships just in case they ever need someone to use a bow or drive a
car
>> with wheels? The classic Traveller system was a system that was light on
>> starting skill points anyway, and it was a little while before they even
>> introduced a method to learn new skills or improve old ones.
>
>Where have you been adventuring???


Usually in the more developed areas of the Imperium. That's what my players
seem to like best.

>Fun is what you make of it.  Do you *REALLY* wanna play a character who's
so
>over the top that *nothing* is a challange for him?  Not me.


You're right. Fun is what you make of it.

However, there *is* a wide gulf of difference between allowing the players
to play the sorts of characters they want to play (with the sorts of skills
they want) and characters that are so over the top that *nothing* is a
challenge for them!

Fortunately, I've been blessed with a non-munchkin gaming group. Apparently,
other folks have problems with this sort of player, and fortunately, I've
never had to worry about this.

For the record, we used the T4 rules the last time I ran a campaign, and we
combined the two methods of character creation. T4 gives one skill per year
and there are 4 years per term. The tables are set up so 1D decides the
skill category and 1D decides the skill. Year 1: Roll for each. Year 2: Roll
for category, pick skill. Year 3: Pick category, roll for skill. Year 4:
Pick category and pick skill.

I *like* random character generation systems. I'm a diehard for them. I just
never got along well with the CT / "Advanced" CT / MT systems. For some
reason, T4 seemed to work very well, but it might have been the
"combination" method that I came up with.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 02:32:58 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 

"Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> types:

>Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net> writes:
>
>>The big cash scores are
>>gonna be *away* from more 'civilised' worlds.
>
>
>I'm especially intrigued by that last part: the big cash scores are going to
>be *away* from more 'civilized' worlds. How do you mean exactly?
>

 The theory is that the "easy" money to be had on the hi-pop, hi-tech
worlds is already being made by someone else.

>Admin isn't useless for a trader. I know. However, there were times that
>this was the only useful skill I ever rolled for a character. I consider bow
>combat useless as I have yet to actual see a bow used in a Traveller
>campaign. Ground car is marginally useful at best.
>
>Am I to believe that free traders squeeze these guys with useless skills on
>their ships just in case they ever need someone to use a bow or drive a car
>with wheels? The classic Traveller system was a system that was light on
>starting skill points anyway, and it was a little while before they even
>introduced a method to learn new skills or improve old ones.
>

 Not quite. CT skill scales were such that most skills could earn you a good
living at just Skill-1, and only one such skill was necessary. The rest could
afford to be extras, hobbies, or "color."  Given a character with Admin,
Wheled Vehicle, and Archery, I would provide a Captain/Owner who
doesn't like robots for his cargo handling. Instant need for a Supercargo
who can drive a forklift. Admin and Wheeled Vehicle ARE the character's
reason for being onboard.
 With CT and MT, your determined skill set isn't _everything_ you can do,
it's what you do WELL.

>>The system makes *useable* characters.  That was its purpose.
>
>
>Who wants a character that's usable if it's not much fun to use?
>

 Turn the Archery into an excuse to be on certain worlds at certain times, for
Grark hunting season, a big archery tourney, or a showing of an
archeological site with ancient (or Ancient) archers.

  Half the fun is getting into situations you aren't suited for. Two 
characters
come to mind immediately: Hobart Floyt and Arthur Dent. Hobart is a
Librarian, and Arthur's sole useful skill turnes out to be sandwich-making.
Both lead very interesting lives that are very interesting to read about...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:08:24 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 2:18 AM
Subject: Re: CT Skills


>Different campaign styles probably.  I have seen bow's used a time
>or two, but you are right it's not what I'd call a very *useful*
>skill.  ;-) BTW, I looked at my copy of B1 just now and didn't see a
>Bow skill in the Merchant's career.  I know it showed up eventually,
>but Bow skill wasn't in my B1 at all.


Bow combat: I was being a little extreme in my example, although I vividly
remember getting several characters with one largely useless skill, two
useless skills. I know, bow combat didn't come along for a little while. I
was hoping nobody would catch my error ;)

Different Campaign styles: I'm sure it is. The games I run tend to be very
urbanized, for example. I also am partial to the region where the Daibei
sector and the Solomani Rim meets. That's not exactly a frontier region.

>OTOH, ground car is an *extremely* useful skill when ground
>transportation is the norm on a planet and grav vehicle is the norm
>for the TL of the group in general.  Famous last words, "Hey, I can
>drive an air-raft, of course I can drive that truck!"


True enough. That might be fine on the frontier, or even somewhere that is
simply "off the beaten trade routes"... However, a character generation
system should be capable of generating characters that can be used in any
Imperial-type setting, even if it isn't the Spinward Marches or another
frontier.

>>Am I to believe that free traders squeeze these guys with useless
>>skills on their ships just in case they ever need someone to use a
>>bow or drive a car with wheels?
>
>Ha! Ha! It's not *that* bad. ;->


Well... Okay. You got me. I *have* gotten some characters that are nearly
that bad. As an example: under vanilla CT character generation merchant
characters aren't guaranteed a single starship related skill until they
reach 1st Officer.

>Oh, I agree with you on that.  CT *was* a little light on skills,
>and lighter on skill improvement.  There are howevers to both of
>those objections, though.
>
>In CT the PC could attempt any "task" with or without a skill in
>that area, there were some hefty -DM's for no expertise in some
>cases.  So, the PC wasn't *quite* as limited as his character sheet
>might seem to indcate.


True enough. Also, it was a system that was created while RPGs were in their
infancy. Wasn't it one of the first systems to use the concept of skills at
all? Can't blame GDW if it was rough around the edges ;)

>In character generation you only got 1 or 2 skills every 4 years.
>Given that you shouldn't expect characters to advance very fast in
>game play.  That's why I don't think CT considered skill improvement
>to be especially important.  If a campaign continued for 3, 4, 5
>years the Ref (to use CT terminology) could just pick, or tell the
>player to pick a skill to go up a point. ;->


Yep. Then again, game design was a young art.

>>>The system makes *useable* characters.  That was its purpose.
>
>>Who wants a character that's usable if it's not much fun to use?
>
>Um, well, we could always counter with how much fun the character is
>depends more on how you play them than what is on their character
>sheet. ;-J  You do have a point, though.


I will agree, but only in theory. I enjoy taking on challenges when I play
games other GMs are running. I'll frequently take skills or characters that
have little practical value. Most of my friends who are GMs run combat heavy
games and I never really take combat heavy characters. I always have fun
playing, and people tend to remember the characters I play.

However, I've found that the quickest way to driving off players is to force
your own gaming aesthetic on them... whether it's by not being responsive to
the type of campaign they want to play or not realizing that some people
don't *like* playing the cabin boy who provides comic relief until there's a
bow to be fired or a ground car to be driven ;)

<in best Road Warrior aussie accent: "I'll drive that tanker!">

>I don't much care for point based chargen, that's my biggest
>problem with GURPS.


I have my issues with point based character generation. However, I've
managed to come to terms with GURPS, to some extent. One of the problems
with random character generation is the potential of a severe imbalance
within the party. The people I play with are hardened RPG veterans who like
playing quirky and entertaining characters, so I don't have to worry about
them looking for ways to get serious advantages in point based character
generation. However, as a rule, they don't like to play characters that are
too far from what they want to play.

>Personally, I think a mix of random selection, career packages, and
>a little free-choice gives the most "interesting" characters.


I completely agree. Fortunately, so do my players.

<snippage>

>What does this remind you of, CT Advanced? ;->


Pretty much. ;)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:17:33 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 

> -----Original Message-----
> 
> >Because the megacorps are going to be trying to corner the markets on the
> >civilised worlds.  I'm not saying *every* jerkwater planet's gonna make you
> a
> >killing, just that it's more likely that an independent will do better on
> one
> >than trying to cut out a megacorp on a high pop TL15 planet.  They just
> won't
> >have the resources to compete.
> 
> 
> Fair enough, not too far from my own idea of trade. Generally, in my
> developed areas, tramps carry the stuff the megacorps don't want to carry.
> In other words, the kind of stuff that makes for good adventures and
> scenarios.

IMTU, there aren't a whole lotta tramps flying in the developed areas, at 
least, not before the Rebellion anyways.  Now, they're starting to come back, 
flying interface between the Wilds and the Safes, places where the corporados 
don't *even* wanna be flying.
 
> Before: "What's that? You need to get an adult Narinvan Mantis from Cameron
> to Wendell? Sure, we can do that!"
> 
> After: "That jerk never told us that its diamond-hard teeth could rend
> through the standard transport cage. <sigh> Oh well, hopefully I can find
> another engineer at Wendell Down."

*chuckle*
 
> >> Am I to believe that free traders squeeze these guys with useless skills
> on
> >> their ships just in case they ever need someone to use a bow or drive a
> car
> >> with wheels? The classic Traveller system was a system that was light on
> >> starting skill points anyway, and it was a little while before they even
> >> introduced a method to learn new skills or improve old ones.
> >
> >Where have you been adventuring???
> 
> 
> Usually in the more developed areas of the Imperium. That's what my players
> seem to like best.

Personally, I like running around on the fringes.  Dunno why, but it *seems* 
there's more action out there than around the center of the Imperium.
 
> >Fun is what you make of it.  Do you *REALLY* wanna play a character who's
> so
> >over the top that *nothing* is a challange for him?  Not me.
> 
> 
> You're right. Fun is what you make of it.
> 
> However, there *is* a wide gulf of difference between allowing the players
> to play the sorts of characters they want to play (with the sorts of skills
> they want) and characters that are so over the top that *nothing* is a
> challenge for them!
> 
> Fortunately, I've been blessed with a non-munchkin gaming group. Apparently,
> other folks have problems with this sort of player, and fortunately, I've
> never had to worry about this.

For me, the challange is to roll something up and *play* it as it falls.  
More on this in a bit...
 
> For the record, we used the T4 rules the last time I ran a campaign, and we
> combined the two methods of character creation. T4 gives one skill per year
> and there are 4 years per term. The tables are set up so 1D decides the
> skill category and 1D decides the skill. Year 1: Roll for each. Year 2: Roll
> for category, pick skill. Year 3: Pick category, roll for skill. Year 4:
> Pick category and pick skill.

Here's the guy I play in Roger Barr's 'Lucky Credit' PBEM:

Romli Issak Elvis Hamlin, ex-Sharurshid employee, 5 terms, 38 yrs old.

UPP (Original):  78A987  UPP (Final): 78ABB7    Cr:  110 KCr

Skills:
Engineering-3                     Handgun-4
Dagger-1                          Vacc Suit-1
Commo-1                           Admin-1
Computer-1                        Leader-1
Sh Tactics-1                      Trader-2
Liason-1                          Broker-3
Pilot-1                           Legal-1

He did 4 years in the regional Sharurshid 'baby brass school', then 16 years 
bouncing in and out of the company and a couple of its subsidiaries.  He got 
stuck having to take the O-3 exam twice due to department & corporate 
bouncing around.  Finally, he'd had enough and told them to shove it.  He 
finally got a berth onboard a tramp freighter, the 'Lucky Credit', as 3rd 
Officer/Chief Engineer/Lead Broker.

> I *like* random character generation systems. I'm a diehard for them. I just
> never got along well with the CT / "Advanced" CT / MT systems. For some
> reason, T4 seemed to work very well, but it might have been the
> "combination" method that I came up with.

Hamlin's straight outta 'Merchant Prince', and I was happy with how he ended 
up.  We worked the Handgun-4 into his bio as him being on the corporate 
Shooting Team that was trendy in the Deneb area for about 5, 10 years (copped 
a gun & a couple more Gun Cbts as material bennies).  And he has serious 
problems adjusting his thinking from 20 years of 'right way, wrong way, 
Sharurshid way', even though no corporation will bother talking to him about 
a job due to Sharurshid's blackballing him when he quit.

All in all, a fun guy to hang with.  And a guy who's looking to skipper his 
own boat someday.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:32:07 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 

> >>The big cash scores are
> >>gonna be *away* from more 'civilised' worlds.
> >
> >I'm especially intrigued by that last part: the big cash scores are going to
> >be *away* from more 'civilized' worlds. How do you mean exactly?
> 
>  The theory is that the "easy" money to be had on the hi-pop, hi-tech
> worlds is already being made by someone else.
> 
> >Admin isn't useless for a trader. I know. However, there were times that
> >this was the only useful skill I ever rolled for a character. I consider bow
> >combat useless as I have yet to actual see a bow used in a Traveller
> >campaign. Ground car is marginally useful at best.
> >
> >Am I to believe that free traders squeeze these guys with useless skills on
> >their ships just in case they ever need someone to use a bow or drive a car
> >with wheels? The classic Traveller system was a system that was light on
> >starting skill points anyway, and it was a little while before they even
> >introduced a method to learn new skills or improve old ones.
> 
>  Not quite. CT skill scales were such that most skills could earn you a good
> living at just Skill-1, and only one such skill was necessary. The rest could
> afford to be extras, hobbies, or "color."  Given a character with Admin,
> Wheled Vehicle, and Archery, I would provide a Captain/Owner who
> doesn't like robots for his cargo handling. Instant need for a Supercargo
> who can drive a forklift. Admin and Wheeled Vehicle ARE the character's
> reason for being onboard.
>  With CT and MT, your determined skill set isn't _everything_ you can do,
> it's what you do WELL.

A guy with Wheeld Vehicle-1 & Admin-1 would be picked up by a tramp skipper 
to handle his cargo *AND* buy/sell it on pick up & drop off points.  The DM 
'spread' on Admin-1 is 2, i.e., DM -1 on all buying rolls on the T&S price 
table, +1 on all selling rolls on the same table.

FWIW, I *don't* like the abstract trade spec system that debutted in Merchant 
Prince.  Under the original T&S rules, I could usually take a 20-100KCr stake 
and start up a full blown merchant company within 5 game years.  <grin>
 
> >>The system makes *useable* characters.  That was its purpose.
> >
> >
> >Who wants a character that's usable if it's not much fun to use?
> >
> 
>  Turn the Archery into an excuse to be on certain worlds at certain times, for
> Grark hunting season, a big archery tourney, or a showing of an
> archeological site with ancient (or Ancient) archers.

Or, being able to take down a bad guy on a planet where the highest tech is 
the crossbow, and Impie regs deny you the use of that FGMP-15 you rilly wanna 
use on them.
 
>   Half the fun is getting into situations you aren't suited for. Two 
> characters
> come to mind immediately: Hobart Floyt and Arthur Dent. Hobart is a
> Librarian, and Arthur's sole useful skill turnes out to be sandwich-making.
> Both lead very interesting lives that are very interesting to read about...

Yup.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:52:19 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

Chris Seamans wrote:

> Bow combat: I was being a little extreme in my example, although I vividly
> remember getting several characters with one largely useless skill, two
> useless skills. I know, bow combat didn't come along for a little while. I
> was hoping nobody would catch my error ;)

LOL!  I was all prepared to pounce on you.  I caught it, but thought I'd
be nice.  I figured you had meant to say Blade CBT instead, and was
waiting for you to dig your way out of saying that a character with
Blade-1,  Admin-1, and Ground Vehicle-1 was useless.  But then
you went and dug the hole deeper.  ;-)


> Well... Okay. You got me. I *have* gotten some characters that are nearly
> that bad. As an example: under vanilla CT character generation merchant
> characters aren't guaranteed a single starship related skill until they
> reach 1st Officer.

Right.  (assuming Edu<8) They can only get:
Blade CBT, Bribery, Gun CBT, Streetwise, Medical or +1 Str, Dex, or End.
Those are useless for a merchant on a starship.

Only 8 of the 18 available rolls are 'directly starship-related related skills:
0/6 on the Personal Development Table (no suprise)
4/6 on the Service Skills table
4/6 Advanced Education Table (not the Edu 8+ one)

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 03:56:15 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Something like...

[snip]

> Career
>     First Career:  Receive a small set of Career/Occupation Skills
>     corresponding to "Basic/Advanced Training"
>
>     Succeeding Careers:  Receive a potentially smaller set of skills
>                         (if you already have that skill you don't
>                         get an inprovement)

Thought just occured to me:

Limiting max skill level by appropriate attribute.
Half the Attribute.
Dex 6 limits Rifle to max of 3
Edu 8 limits Physics to max of 4

Thoughts?


>         On promotion 1 skill at random from one of the tables (BTW,
>                     I've never quite understood why you get a skill
>                     when you are promoted.  It seems to me you'd get
>                     a promotion when you reach certain milestones,
>                     seniority or skill levels.)

Sort of like Merchant Prince chargen?
In a min-maxing sense, IMO, there should be some reward for promotion,
either something gained directly (like a skill), or something that the rank
enables (muster out bonuses, special skill tables, special schools, etc.).
Else, why does it matter in chargen?  Else why is it desirable to the player
(as opposed to the character)?  I have virtually no interest in creating a
character that I want to play in GT with _any_ level of former rank,
whatsoever.  I can spend that point somewhere else.  But I would really
like to get 5 skills every year instead of just 4.


- --
Bloo

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #780
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 28 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 781



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Sandcasters
Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Imperial Marines
001-0
OT: Weird Al parody site...
Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines
RE: Imperial Marines...
Re: Imperial Marines...
re: Battle Dress
re: Battle Dress
RE: Sandcasters
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:29:55 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: Sandcasters

At 12:01 AM 28/06/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>What is canon as to how sandcasters are used?  Do they the cast a cloud
>which is then held in place around the ship, in some sort of
>field-thingie?  Or do they repeatedly cast new clouds as they are lost to
>vector changes?  Are they cast in expectation of incoming fire from
>specific sources, or are they used constantly when in combat situations,
>as in "Raise shields?"  None of the above?
>Thanks,
>Michael
>

        Its a missile with an alblative sand in it...  the missile is fired
"up threat" towards probable origins of laser or missile fire.  The missile/
canister sails out, explodes and creates a "slick" or "plume" of material
between the ship and the threat.  The sand has a vector...  which means that
if the ship does anything but station keeping, it leaves the plume behind
and will have to disperse more sand next round.
        Incoming energy weapons fire is absorbed by the sand.  Missiles can
be damaged when passing through the cloud or proximity fuses triggered by
the cloud.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:25:56 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 5:09 AM
Subject: Re: Battle Dress (was re: Imperial Marines)



> > Therefore, these BD Troops were frightening even when stark naked.
>
> I have to agree.
>
> I guess what's troubling to me is that Doug's vision of the I'rine's is
> different
> from what I'm used.  Not bad, just different.  The picutre I have involves
> BD as a rare sight.
>
> In Book 1, there is no Battledress skill at all, but then BD probably
> didn't exist yet.
>
> In Book 4, BD skill is there, but it is difficult to get requiring a roll
> of 6 and a TL12+ world.  The automatic skill is Gun Combat.
> The second skill (MOS) is either
> Gun Cmbt (2/6)
>  Zero-G (2/6)
> Hvy Wpns (1/6)
> Fwd Obs (1/6)
> Battledress (1/6 + TL 12+ requirement).
>
> The type of action the I'rine will see in Book 4 Chargen:
> Raid (2/11)
> Counter Insurgency (2/11)
> Police Action (2/11)
> Ships Troops (2/11)
> Inernal Security (1/11)
> Garrison (1/11)
> Training (1/11)
>

This is where I have made my biggest mistake, looking at the Traveller
Universe from a CT slant and past real history.  BD it seems is going to go
from a highly prised, rare skill to a shoved down every marine player's
throat in GT.

I shall try and think of it in GT terms from now on (a system of traveller I
don't care to play, but that is actually beside the point).  I don't even
know if GT has a generation system that includes details such as Raid,
Counter Insurgency, Police Actions, etc., but don't imagine there will be
all of them as some of these assignments sound out of the area of IM
operations in GT as they require extended periods on the ground in army-like
operations.

Sorry for the confusion, CT/GURPS, you know how it is :^)

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:54:24 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Matthew Bond <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 7:46 AM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...



>
> While I can certainly understand your point of view regarding the relative
> abilities of the army and marines in long term deployments, and that your
> view is that marines have a different skill set to the army, I am not sure
> that your point of view is the same as that of many of the posters on this
> list.
>
> This would be no problem if you were simply describing the marines in YTU,
> after all "vive le difference".  However, your description is that of the
> proposed *canon* marines.  I thought you were posting your proposal in
order
> to receive constructive criticism, and to get a feeling for the "de facto"
> canon. ie the way marines are used by the majority of Traveller gamers.
>

Well, as I now see it Matt, GURPS is comic book heavy on things like BD, and
in a sense, it is "de facto canon."  If there is still a T-5 system in
production, then surely it must be what you would call "Traveller canon," as
I assume (and again I may be wrong) it is based on the established Traveller
history the older Traveller players started off with.

Therefore, in GT, you have every IM in BD with micronukes, while in CT, IM's
have to work to earn their BD-skill, let alone a suit of BD.  This suits me
fine if that's the way it is meant to be.  GT IM's = vehicle (suit) crew
(suiters perhaps?), while CT IM's = multi-role, ground fighting forces.

I step aside from this argument now (if I don't have to answer further on
it).  I do not play GT so the minority may have this rule their way (GT
player's will have to carry on the debate alone as I am not qualified to
argue against GT rules) from where I stand.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 22:01:29 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 27, 1999 2:51 PM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps



>
> My point is that a Marine, who by training and experience fights pitched
> battles in a suit of Battledress, *might*, I say again *MIGHT*, have the
> disadvantage of Combat Paralysis if he is suddenly caught in a firefight
> without the protection he's used to having.

Not arguing here, just further curiosity about GT rules.  Do, or will, all
military personnel be lumbered with this CP disadvantage?  I mean, the oft
mentioned tankers and pilots who lose their particular vehicle?  Artillery
crew and navy (wet and space) when they lose their specialty equipment?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:08:07 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

At 17:15 27/06/1999 +0100, "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk> wrote:

>After all, what happens if the enemy fleet reappears and interferes with
>resupply and reinforcements.  The Marines may have to fight for several
>weeks isolated from their logistic tail. Eventually power cells and oxygen
>tanks are depleted, and the BD is effectively out of commission.  These
>elite forces will then have to rely on more mundane methods of force
>projection... perhaps even as mundane as fatigues and cutlasses <g>
>
>After all, except within the confines of a single system, we aren't looking
>at a situation with real time intelligence and command/control.  They can't
>just radio in a request for resupply if their fleet has been forced to jump
>out of the system by enemy activity.  There may not have been time to evac
>them. It will be at least two weeks before friendlies reappear, maybe longer
>if a sufficient force to repel the enemy fleet takes time to assemble.
>These troops will *have* to be able to operate without their BD, or at the
>first hitch their assault will fail.

And their heroic reistance to the last will become legends to inspire
the generations to come.

However, I think Doug was expecting that normal service for the IM
involved winning battles more often than being wiped out.

If the situation needs Imperial action now and it has to be the marines
from the navy and not the contact group from the scouts, then it seems
to follow that 100 marines in body armour and a gauss rifle cannot secure
a planet.

If they cannot win using battledress and the navy high guard, then, when
these facilities are removed, I think they've lost the battle.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 06:22:18 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

>Date: Sun, 27 Jun 1999 23:58:13 -0500
>From: "Brian T. Simmons" <bsimmons@onramp.net>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Marines
>
>From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
>
>>"Every Marine a Rifleman." They really do live it, too. Every Marine, from
>>Recruit Private to the Commandant himself, qualifies with the rifle every
>>year -- no other service that I know of can make that claim; the Army
>>certainly can't. If they expect to stay in the Marines, they'll do a damn
>>sight better than simply qualify, too.
>
>    Major, what Army are you in?  

I am in an Army where all aircrews and virtually all officers above the
rank of lieutenant qualify with the pistol, not the rifle. (Tankers used to
carry pistols and M3 submachineguns, but with the advent of the M4 carbine
this is less necessary.) Pistols are (out the hands of specialists like
SFOD-Delta) designed for self-defense, not combat. *Every single Marine*
qualifies with the rifle, every year; officers who carry pistols qualify
with them in addition, not in lieu.

I have fought this trend my entire career; I carried both a pistol and an
M4 on every mission in Somalia, despite the weight of ammunition and the
incredibly cramped size of a Cobra cockpit.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 08:37:11 EDT
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: 001-0

What day way the founding day of the Third Imperium?

Excel 97 has a date function that says Jan 9 4531 is a Tuesday. That is 
theoretically the benchmark date.

BUT, is it a Tuesday?

Does the Excel 97 function recognize Feb 29 4000 as a valid date? The 
Traveller Solomani calendar (perhaps at odds with the current concept of the 
Solomani calendar) says that every 4th year is a leap year, but the 00 years 
are not, but every 400th year is (ie, 1600, 2000, 2400). That makes 4000 a 
leap year. The Traveller universe makes the further adjustment that years 
divisible by 4000 are not leap years.

If the excel function recognizes Feb 29 4000 as a valid date, then Jan 9 4531 
isn't a Tuesday. What should it be?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:39:47 -0600 (CST)
From: "Jason Kemp" <Jason.Kemp@tdh.state.tx.us>
Subject: OT: Weird Al parody site...

Greetings, All,

For those who enjoy the albeit-strange musical talents of Weird Al 
Yankovic, he's just released a parody of Phantom Menace, to the tune 
of American Pie.  The URL is below (It does contain spoilers!):

http://www.sagabegins.com/

Someone may have already reported this, as I haven't read the digests 
yet from the weekend.  If so, I apologize for wasting bandwidth.

Thanks for your time.  Enjoy!

Humorously,
Jason

==============================
Jason Kemp, ADS Programmer III
(512)458-7111 ext. 3375

Internet Address: jason.kemp@tdh.state.tx.us
==============================

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 00:52:37 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Imperial Marines

I thought I'd add my $NZ0.0389 (at todays rate of exchange).

Lets look at the Marines. From the 5FFW counter mix it can be seen that
even for a frontier sector on the verge of war they are fairly thin on the
ground, so I think it can be safely assumed they are an elite force. So the
question is, just what is their role? Well most people seem to agree that
they are the Imperium's rapid reaction force. Now, just what are they
reacting too? Well there's the obvious Zhodani Consular Guard storming
across the frontier (suit up and hold the line till the Army arrives). Then
theres "assisting the civil powers". I think this role would be the most
common Marine role by a long chalk. So just what does this entail? Well
sometimes it will mean suiting up and going out to kick insurgent (or any
body elses) butt.

However, I think far more frequent would be "preemtive" intervention. This
is where the situation has not moved to a full on combat situation, but
you've got riots, strikes, civil disobediance etc. here the Imperial Marine
in battledress with their FGMP-14 (or 12a) is not the best option, firing
over a milling crowd's heads with fusion guns is *not* a smart idea, nor is
trying to subdue a rioter with BD enhanced superstrength. Here you want
most of your Marines in Combat Environment Suits and carrying Gauss
Rifles (plenty menacing for the run of the mill) with a few in full kit hidden
out of sight in case things turn ugly.

I see the Marines a a highly skilled flexible response force. Sure if the
lead (or plasma) starts flying, they will adopt the philosophy of "Don't tap
it, thump it". But for the majority of their missions, this will not be the
required response and the Marines are going to have to be able to deal
with a wide range of situations. As I see it the difference between the
Army and the Marines is that when the Army goes in, its a shooting war.
Whereas the Marines are used mostly to prevent the Army being needed,
with a side order of rapid application of maximum firepower if required.
However the prime role of the Marines is to avoid the need to apply that
firepower.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 23:12:35 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 12:37 PM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...



>
> I'm being harsh toward the system, as that was something that turned most
of
> the people I knew off to Traveller. I find it endearing and interesting to
a
> large extent, but it also has some serious flaws. There were many times
that
> people went into the system expecting Han Solo who came out with a
> distinctly unromantic character.
>

I believe the beauty of a good role player is using what one gets with
random roles.  But then again, I never accepted players in my game that
required the best stats and skills (and the only walk-outs I had was when we
switched to MT!  Weird huh?  The rules changes were to confusing for them??)

>
> The line of thought I see from you is that training and experience don't
> factor in at all. Any guy with a gun is magically as well trained and has
> the same skills and experiences that an infantry soldier has... which is
> selling the infantry soldier short.
>

I was an assault troop (QMI -- Mounted Infantry -- a grunt with transport)
and our vehicle (APC) crew were armour, there was the distinction between
the two.  They too had to train as infantry.  They were not trained to lose
their vehicle in combat, but if it happened, they were trained to help us
grunts defeat the enemy we faced and return to take control of another
vehicle later.  I believe Australian arnour crews have to spend a period of
time each year on the ground as grunts also.  Go figure?

>
> >I see IM's doing survival courses, firing courses, medical courses (first
> >aid), stealth training, etc., just like a grunt.  I can see them fielded
> >without BD in combat to prove worthy of using BD.
>
>
> Oh... I must have missed that part in the modern world where pilots and
> tankers prove themselves in combat before being allowed to handle their
> vehicles ;)
>

Well, that's because you see BD as a be all and end all of IM equipment, it
is equated as a vehicle, where I see it as just another piece of ground
troop equipment.  You are saying IM's are dedicated to wearing BD in combat,
that IS their specialty where I say it is just a piece of equipment they are
skilled in using, like not every marine may be skilled in FO or even the use
of a VRF-GG, not every marine is skilled in the use of BD.  I see them as a
troopie, not a pilot or turrethead :^)

> This creates a rather interesting problem both in GURPS and in reality.
> There are only so many hours in a day to train. There is only so much a
> single person can retain. If you'll pardon me for saying so, what you're
> proposing sounds to me like something out of a comic book.
>

That means that my APC crews couldn't learn that infantry stuff they did
along with specialised vehicle training and tactics?  Like I said, I don't
read comics.  It's sad that there don't seem to be military vehicle crews on
this list, I'd like to know if the US or British vehicle crews are as
incapable of learning multi-skills as suggested?

> >I wouldn't give a soldier a suit if he didn't know everything else.
>
> Everything? Does that include classical Vilani literature? ;)
>

My, my... Now who is taking thisng to extremes?  We were talking about
combat situations with the smells of burnt bodies, blood, cordite (or
equivalent... ozone?), the sound of wounded combatants from both sides...
you know, the general battlefield canvas.

> How about a pilot? Does a pilot have to be a field medic, a commando, and
a
> computer repairman before he gets his hands on a plane? The Imperium is
> going to have to draw the line somewhere.
>

With this anology, where the answer is no, we are saying that an IM cannot
service his own suit and do reloads, because typically, this is outside the
realms of a pilot's job discription.  So if you wish to go that way, that
does seem to limit our marine somewhat as he is as highly skilled in the use
of his suit as a pilot is in his aircraft and have been equated to each
other all through this thread.

> >The
> >incidence of armour loss on the battlefield would be reasonably med-high,
> so
> >would the loss of BD... not a feasable bad-arsed reputation when you lose
> >the "Battle of Naked Trooper" because "To many troops lost their BD,
caused
> >a complete route.  Enemy swarmed over our armour support and they had to
be
> >abandoned... bloody cowardly marines!"  Not one for the recruiting
> poster...
> >plus all the war correspondence filming IM troops without armour cowering
> >and/or fleeing in every battle where their BD is lost!
>
>
> I apologize if I say, again, this sounds a bit unrealistic. You're
expecting
> Imperial marines to be Rambo. I disagree strongly with this. I'm not
saying
> that they shouldn't be tough. I'm just saying that their skin isn't
> bulletproof.
>
> Do you honestly think that any single human being without a suit of
powered
> armor is equal to with a suit of powered armor? I am really baffled here.
If
> the combat zone is hot enough to kill a battle dress piloting marine, the
> marine has very little chance of surviving no matter how many skills or
how
> much experience he has.
>

You seem to assume that there will only be one type of enemy encountered,
those armed with weapons to take out a BD-equipped trooper.  I assumed that
our marines would also assault strongpoints where the heavy weapons would be
capable of taking down armour support and BD-equipped marines.  You are now
saying that if the marine has his suit disabled and has to leave it behind,
he is also no match for the supporting enemy troops with ACR's and cloth
armour.  I'd mention that historically, when a piece of armour was
neutralised, those firing upon said armour would usually change target to
another functioning piece of armour, leaving the crew and supporting ground
troops to their own supporting ground troops to neutralise, but you told me
before that using real life/historical examples was
incorrect/unfair/unrealistic(?), so I guess I'll assume that the gunners
neutralising the BD's will continue to fire upon the man inside the suit
after the suit itself is destroyed and ignore the other functioning BD's
attacking...

No, bugger it, I will mention that historically, when a piece of armour was
neutralised, those firing upon said armour would usually change target to
another functioning piece of armour, leaving the crew and supporting ground
troops to their own supporting ground troops to neutralise.  I would assume
that on most battlefields, that when a man is forced to abandon his
"armour," he is not written off altogether, that he can still contribute to
the fight as per your "If the combat zone is hot enough to kill a battle
dress piloting marine, the marine has very little chance of surviving no
matter how many skills or how much experience he has" statement... Sorry,
history always gets in my way like that.

> >It just doesn't jell with how I (again, it's my opinion) imagine a fierce
> >Imperial Marine operates...
>
>
> It seems to me that you expect superheroic levels of ability from human
> beings. To assume that a single man with a sidearm or rifle would be able
to
> survive and *win* a combat that took out his battle dress is, well, not
> particularly realistic.
>

Hmmmm... An unarmoured man with a single shot weapons killing an armoured
giants?  I guess you are right, it just doesn't happen (can someone else
tell him please?)

>
> >Which puts him in the situation where, if there are no other "vehicles"
> >(suits) available to him for whatever reasons, our big bad marine is
> >relegated to the field kitchens out of the way of the real fighting men?
> >Makes that cutlass sensible now :^)
>
>
> If marines are required on the battlefield an unarmored man will have
little
> chance of surviving no matter how many skills he has. Period. There is no
> changing this, at least not realistically. Plasma guns, fusion guns and
> their splashes, radiation and blasts from meson sleds... There are *no*
> "real fighting men" on a battlefield like that. There are no guys with
> sidearms and Imperial issue coveralls that will have the slightest chance
of
> turning the tide of battle.
>

Well, the point is, if the army has that equipment (BD's) available to them,
why bother fielding the marines in the first place?   Field the army units
and if some should lose their suits, they are skilled enough to go to ground
and still do some damage as they are multi-roled where the marines are not?
They can diddly bop off to a flank and take out one or two of the enemy
support crews where possible, perhaps damage some of the enemies equipment
before going to ground again (or getting micronuked like snipers do?).

> >I'm not having a go at you personally, I'm just trying to make sense of
the
> >logic of an impressively cudo'ed fighting force that can't seem to
perform
> >without the best equipment, when the lowly grunt can kill with his bear
> >hands if required.
>
>
> I didn't think that you were having a go at me personally. It's okay.
>

Thanks, and believe it or not, that still stands... I am just defending my
statements as I still don't see logic with the proposed "all marines in BD"
rule.  However, being a GURPS thing, they can have whatever rules they like
as I don't play GT (I guess I'm a CT loyalist).

> <shrug> You're overstating and / or misunderstanding the comments and
claims
> I made. I can't help that. I never said that Imperial marines are helpless
> as babies without their suits. I did say that they are not on par with an
> infantry soldier in the same situation. I did say that the skill set of an
> Imperial marine is entirely different than that of an infantry soldier.
>

Perhaps.  I don't see these guys as traditional marines if forced to be
BD-bound.  I always saw marines as a multi-role capable force, in and out of
suits, not a vehicular-bound force like turretheads and pilots... they are
just not the same...

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:21:11 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial Marines...

Where would the marines from Honor Harringtons Star Kingdom fit into this.
Incidently has anyone tried using Traveller - any edition, as the basis for
a game using this background?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:47:29 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

>As the history old books say, it was to save the lives of all the GI's that
>would have to fight for the main islands, but the new books say that the
>American commanders knew the Japanese were about to capitulate, but did not
>tell Truman... the military simply wanted a live test bed for the two
>designs while they could use it against the monster that was Japan, the
>baby-eating rapists that they were (as they were seen at the time anyway).

This sounds to me like politically-correct historical revisionism...
The politically-correct of today are so horrified by the idea of the
use of atomic weapons that they gloss over the reasons for their use
in 1945: there was a war on. I am appalled by the peaceniks who every 
August 8 stage a protest shouting "No more Hiroshimas" -- I'll agree 
to that so long as they agree to the idea of "No more Pearl Harbors".
(The ironic part of all this: I'm a Canadian.)


In an effort to avoid another flamewar, an ObTrav:

The Imperium has been around for over 1100 years in the "present" of 
most Traveller campaigns. What kind of "historical revisionism" is there
in the year 1120 about past events? The Solomani Rim War and some of the
early pacification campaigns are probably good starting points... 

eg, What does a schoolchild in the Imperium learn about the Solomani
Rim War, and how does it differ from what a schoolchild in the Solomani
Confederacy learns?







     Glenn St-Germain § Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com § http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:44:05 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Battle Dress

Steve Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I guess what's troubling to me is that Doug's vision of the I'rine's is
different from what I'm used.  Not bad, just different.  The picutre I have involves BD as a rare sight.

In Book 1, there is no Battledress skill at all, but then BD probably
didn't exist yet.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Wasn't a high enough level of Vac Suit skill (2? 3?) originally considered
sufficient for using battle dress? That would be along the lines that
"Vac Suit" was a generic skill with protective gear, and that Battle Dress
is an armored form of an advanced hostile environment suit - Battle Dress
skill would be the result of an advanced and specialized training course
focused on the capabilities of BD. 

Thus a crack Vac Suit user might be good with HUD's, backup systems, 
user-friendly sensors and even Exoskeleton-assists, but wouldn't be very adept with things like HUD-linked targeting computers or BD repair.
A character with Battle Dress skill - a much rarer animal - would have
most or all of the Vac Suit skill knowledge, would know how to maintain
BD, might know some unusual tricks for getting more out of BD, and
might even know useful things about wrecking other people's BD.

Of course, a skill with the FGMP's would probably cover the targeting computer for the Vac Suit guy. 

I may have Vac Suit as BD skill confused in my memory - my CT books
are not at the desk I'm working from now.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:17:59 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Battle Dress

Chris Seamans wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
If you have a different take on the way that they're used, you have a
different take on the way that they're used. I'm not going to argue with
that. However, Battle Dress is relatively cheap and the mission directives
of the Imperial Marines are specialized enough that I'm not sure I can see
much use for the marines if they're not tied in with battle dress. That's
just my spin on the situation.
>>>>>>>>>>>
I don't see the mission directives of the IM as that specialized - if anything,
I see the exact opposite. 

Marines, from my view, are going to be the troops of choice for almost 
*every* short-term mission. Every major (and most minor) Imperial Navy 
vessel and installation has some on hand, they're usually the closest 
manpower to be had. Very, very few of these short-term missions will be 
of the "drop from orbit and storm the citadel" variety...I would even say
that in many of these missions, if a Marine even has to fire a weapon then 
something has gone very wrong. Remember, the Imperial Marines spend
most of their time working inside the Imperium, on security and internal
policing duties - a major interstellar war only comes along once a
generation or so.

I see BD-specialist marines as elite troops, while it seems Doug's
design has the average line marine being a BD trooper. I believe my
take is closer to CT canon, though I may be wrong. I'm almost certain
Doug's take is GT canon - after all, he's the one writing this part 
of it. :-) 

FWIW, I think Doug's idea for a Combat Paralysis disad for elite
BD-jockeys is an excellent one. It was when he described Marines
as never seeing a fight outside their armor that he went too far for my
taste. His telling of Marine veterans who had never smelled the smoke
of a battlefield may have been some playful hyperbole, of course.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:28:15 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Sandcasters

Michael A Newman writes:
"What is canon as to how sandcasters are used?  Do they the 
a cloud which is then held in place around the ship, in some 
sort of field-thingie?  Or do they repeatedly cast new clouds 
as they are lost to vector changes?  Are they cast in 
expectation of incoming fire from specific sources, or are 
they used constantly when in combat situations, as in "Raise 
shields?"  None of the above?"

	I can't help you with canon, but IMTU a canister of
	sand is fired towards one target. The canister bursts
	and obscures that target, interfering with laser fire
	in either direction. The sand dissipates in one turn.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:36:18 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

Keven R. Pittsinger writes:
"OK, *one* thing you guys are forgetting is that the Moties 
used genetic engineering on themselves and other native 
species to enhance their abilities.  The three arm modification 
common to most Motie subspecies is the major case in point."

	I haven't actually forgotten this. Rather, I still find
	the Motie's extraordinary abilities hard to swallow. In
	fact, their ability to geneer themselves just makes their
	inability to overcome the reproduction problem all the 
	more difficult to accept. Recall that it is not only 
	physical features that were geneered, but intellectual
	features as well. This is pretty subtle stuff, betraying
	an intimate knowledge of their biology and how to
	manipulate it.

Peez

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #781
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 28 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 782



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: "Personalities In Traveller"
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Vilani Lies (was Re: Imperial Marines...)
Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps
RE: Imperial Marines...
Re: Imperial Marines
Battle Dress
Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 
RE: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 
Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 
Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 
Re: 001-0
Re: Armor update
paraplegia
Re: 001-0

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:41:16 -0400
From: "Bob Sanders" <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: "Personalities In Traveller"

Someone asked:
>This does lead me to ask a question.
>
>Would any combat vet on this list mind sharing
>1) their reasons for joining the military
>2) reasons they see for making the military a career.
>
>I'd appreciate it if you would also share the country/military branch
>you've
>had experience with so I can pick up any differences.

Not sure if you still want this, as I am some what behind on the TML...

I joined the US Navy in 81, right out of high school. At that time the US
economy was not great, and I was in trouble with the law.  As a bargaining
chip with the judge I expressed an interest in the military.  With that much
thinking I walked to the recruiting office and joined.

It was the best thing I could have done.  I loved bootcamp, finally had some
discipline in my life, and felt part of something.  I was part of the task
force in Grenada, Beirut, and the Gulf, working on the flight deck of the
USS Independence on F-14's. (Avionics, troubleshooting)

After I got out in 85, still wanted to be part of the military, and needed
the cash to help pay for school, so I joined the Marines.

They agreed to pay for school.

Got sent to the Gulf War, and fought in 4 battles - at the first line,
outside the oil fields, farm house, and airport.

After the war, I could see the writing on the wall, the old USSR was gone,
Clinton was in office, and the military was downsizing.  I decided to move
on.

Not sure if that's what you wanted, or if that helps...

Bob Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:46:37 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

Douglas E. Berry writes:
">	Incredably advanced, highly intelligent, and specialized
>	Moties that cannot solve a basic biological problem.


They've tried.  Repeatedly.  The problem is that if the don't 
reproduce, they die.  I got the impression that many, many 
Crazy Eddies tried to break the connection between pregancy and 
survival.

It's a basic problem because we don't have it.  What's the 
solution to our basic problem:

We can't easily expand through the universe because we need to 
breathe.  So the easy question is how do we stop breathing."

	We also have the drive to reproduce, all evolved organisms
	do. Of course, geneered ones could have this drive reduced,
	but that could be dangerous and even fatal for the Moties.
	Nevertheless, simple measures available currently on Terra
	could control Motie population growth: therapeutic abortions
	or infantacide. And even that assumes that there is some
	bizarre reason that the Moties cannot use hormones (or other 
	measures) to fool their bodies into thinking that they are 
	pregnant. By the way, given the abilities that the Moties 
	demonstrate in the books, I would expect that they could 
	allow a human to live without breathing (by ventilating the 
	lungs with a tube, or directly managing gas exchange with an 
	artificial lung).

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:51:06 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Vilani Lies (was Re: Imperial Marines...)

At 07:47 AM 6/28/99 -0600, cos 90 wrote:
>eg, What does a schoolchild in the Imperium learn about the Solomani
>Rim War, and how does it differ from what a schoolchild in the Solomani
>Confederacy learns?

Being a Solomani freedom fighter I can tell you right now that the 
Vilani library data is full of lies! First of all, calling the ROM
the 'ramshackle empire' when it brought a higher tech-level and a 
higher degree of freedom to the populace than any rule before is 
ridiculous. Claming that Solomani are terrorists is another lie.
A terrorist is someone who terrorizes the civilian population into
getting what he wants. Being a revolutionary, I only attack military
targets, and do my best not to inflict civilian casualties. Finally,
there was never any reason to place Terra under Vilani control. The
library data incorrectly states that we were supressing non-Solomani
worlds, and Empress Margaret II was forced to revoke our charter.
What nonsense! Who has ever heard of a politician doing something
simply because it was 'the right thing to do'! More akin to the 
Pacification wars of the early 21st century, where states where
taken over because they needed 'food & health care assistance',
Empress Margaret II simply used this as an excuse to raise her
popularity ratings at the Vilani court.

- -- 
Remember Mother Earth!
Alexis Tsunis, Brigade Commander, Rule of Terra
(of course this is not my email - I had to steal this poor fools terminal
to write anonymously. Computer-4, hah! His password was quite easily
cracked. BTW:If you look it up, you'll find that Alexandrov Tsunis died at
birth on Terra. Now _that_ took computer-4!)




- -- 
Rob Brady 685B57            Computer Geek, 4 terms
Computer-4, Electronic-2, Streetwise-1
"Don't even ask about quirks!"     robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 08:06:09
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps

At 10:01 PM 6/28/99 +1000, you wrote:

>> My point is that a Marine, who by training and experience fights pitched
>> battles in a suit of Battledress, *might*, I say again *MIGHT*, have the
>> disadvantage of Combat Paralysis if he is suddenly caught in a firefight
>> without the protection he's used to having.
>
>Not arguing here, just further curiosity about GT rules.  Do, or will, all
>military personnel be lumbered with this CP disadvantage?  I mean, the oft
>mentioned tankers and pilots who lose their particular vehicle?  Artillery
>crew and navy (wet and space) when they lose their specialty equipment?

No.  Some vehicle crew member perform spectacularly outside their vehicles
either through training or just innate competence.  The vast majority of
Marines if forced to fight un augmented will do a decent job of it.
However, there is that one guy who isn't prepared for the smoke and smells
and noise, and freezes.  It might be your company Ship's Sergeant or Force
Lieutenant, or it might be the guy calling in your fire support.

The rational is that no matter how many roles they serve unarmored, when
heavy combat comes up Marines suit up.  This means that the truly horrible
aspects of war are seen through a HUD from behind heavy armor.  A Marine
suddenly deprived of that protection might not be able to get the image of
what happens to unarmored people out of his mind, especially if the Opfor
is wearing BD.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 08:16:54
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Imperial Marines...

At 09:21 PM 6/28/99 +0800, you wrote:
>Where would the marines from Honor Harringtons Star Kingdom fit into this.
>Incidently has anyone tried using Traveller - any edition, as the basis for
>a game using this background?

Since we haven't seen much grounf combat in the HH novels beyond the
battles in _OBS_, the assault on the asteroid base in _THOTQ_, and the
attack on the prison complex in the latest one, I really couldn't say.

The Royal Manticoran Marines seem to more of a ship based force that the
traveller Marines.  They don't do jumps, and don't seem to have powered
armor in the Battledress sense.  They do carry gauss rifles.

Doing HH in Traveller might be difficult for two reasons:  The sheer size
of the ships, and the different FTL method used.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:11:29 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

Sometimes it is helpful to go back to the source material:

From "Imperial Marine Task Force Organization", by Loren Wiseman, JTAS#12,
pp. 42-45:

"The marines serve several functions. They provide a hard-hitting, rapidly
deployable strike force for offensive and defensive military operations.
They guard vital installations for the navy and other branches of the
Imperial government. They serve as an interstellar police force in many
places along the frontier, keeping the peace and enforcing the Imperial
rules of war. Because of this last function, they are known in mercenary
parlance as "the cops."

So it would appear that police actions and peace-keeping *are* missions for
the Imperial Marines. However, the article also says:

"All marine line troops are jump trained, and are issued jump capsules if
the mission warrants."

"Line marine units are equipped to tech level 15 standards. Marines used as
ship's troops usually lack vehicles, and are armed with hand-carried
weapons only. All marines are equipped with battle dress, and are armed
with FGMP-14s. Unlike other units, even administrative and logistical (but
not medical) personnel are equipped in this fashion, as all but medical
personnel in a marine unit are expected to be able to fight."

So Doug is quite correct in insisting that all Marines be battle dress
troopers. I suppose the slogan becomes "Every Marine a Trooper." I'll have
to think about what implications this has for operations less than
full-blown combat.

There is some ambiguity about whether the Imperial Marines follow the USMC
practice of getting their medical personnel (Hospital Corpsmen) on loan
from the Navy. MT Player's Handbook, p. 45, says "Marines have no medical
officers; they are treated by Navy doctors." If the medical personnel are
actually IN, then all Marines are expected to fight.

From the discussion of Task Forces, it appears that an Imperial Marine
regiment consists of:

[Regimental Headquarters]
3 Force Command Headquarters
9 Line Marine Companies
5 Meson Gun Batteries
2 Lift Cavalry Companies
1 Grav Tank Company
1 Commando Company
Various support elements form the "regimental pool", including:
	point defense
	nuclear damper
	scouts (called "recon" in GT: SM)
	medical
	maintenance
	mess and transport
	admin and logistics

The Imperial Marine Task Force in GT: SM (pp. 116-118) is therefore
somewhat misleading, in that it includes a complete Commando company "from
the regimental pool", when there is only one (GT:SM, p. 21, also says there
is only one company per regiment). It is also designed without the
additional assets required for long-term independent ops, and so is more
suitable for operations closely associated with its parent regiment.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:14:33 -0500
From: "Slack, Andy" <andy.slack@gb.unisys.com>
Subject: Battle Dress

Just my $0.02...

From what I've seen of the thread [may have missed some over the weekend]
it assumes that the GT template is not mutable [I always assumed it was],
and that all Marines are Imperial Marines.

CT Book 1 had Battle Dress, but not Battle Dress skill. IIRC this was
because BD was brought in later [Book 4], wherein BD subsumed Vacc Suit
_and_ how to operate the suit's built-in weapons and electronics. In
Book 4, about half the plasma weapons could only be used when in BD, as the
whole suit was used as a recoil carriage for the weapon. This makes
GT Battlesuit exactly parallel to CT Battle Dress.

CT Book 4 and JTAS both stress the Imperial Marines as a body which
responded "with speed and overwhelming force" and was equipped to TL
14-15. Again by CT Book 4, that would have had almost all of them in
Battle Dress, which IIRC is supported by the JTAS articles detailing
the structure of a Marine force.

But IMTU they don't work that way. Mind you, IMTU, which is heavily
CT based although now played in GT, Free Fall is not a prerequisite for
Vacc Suit which in turn is not a prerequisite for starship Piloting...

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 12:16:34 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 

At 12:07 AM 6/28/99 -0400, Chris Seamans wrote:
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
>
>with wheels? The classic Traveller system was a system that was light on
>starting skill points anyway, and it was a little while before they even
>introduced a method to learn new skills or improve old ones.
>
Bow combat? Is that a cascade skill from gun combat?

Anyway, (hoping this won't get lost in the flame war) just wanted to point
out that LBB #2 (Starships, should be subtitled, "And other miscellaneous
stuff we couldn't fit anywhere else") has a chapter titled "Experience".
Basically, you can throw yourself into a skill for four years and gain a 
temporary +1 to that skill (ie. I am probably only computer-3, but since
I am working at it all the time, I act as computer-4). At the end of 4
years you can continue to throw your self improvement at this target
(pretty sure I will), and then the bonus becomes permanent.

I have never had a useless character. I have never placed Jamison Starseeker
either, so perhaps I am missing something <g>.

BTW: I was reading the gurps disadvantages (is that what they call them?). 
What do you suppose being paraplegic in the 53rd century will be like? To
misquote I magazine I recently read: I watch Star-Trek, so I know that one
day every building will be fully handicapped accessible. Doors will open
automatically when you approach them, elevators will go where ever you want
them to, and (according the 'The Voyage Home' which I happened to catch 
last night) Dr. McCoy will say, "Chemotherapy? What is this, the Spanish
Inquisition?"


- -- 
Rob Brady 685B57            Computer Geek, 4 terms
Computer-4, Electronic-2, Streetwise-1
"Don't even ask about quirks!"     robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:29:17 -0700
From: Jay.Alverson@phs.com
Subject: RE: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 

Imagine the standard 53rd century wheelchair...

sensors
grav + wheel driven
tractor beams for handling things
possible advanced optics
radio/cellular commo
mind impulse control
satellite navigation


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Rob Brady [SMTP:robb@datatone.com]
> Sent:	Monday, June 28, 1999 9:17 AM
> To:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com; traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject:	Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 
> 
> At 12:07 AM 6/28/99 -0400, Chris Seamans wrote:
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> >
> >with wheels? The classic Traveller system was a system that was light on
> >starting skill points anyway, and it was a little while before they even
> >introduced a method to learn new skills or improve old ones.
> >
> Bow combat? Is that a cascade skill from gun combat?
> 
> Anyway, (hoping this won't get lost in the flame war) just wanted to point
> out that LBB #2 (Starships, should be subtitled, "And other miscellaneous
> stuff we couldn't fit anywhere else") has a chapter titled "Experience".
> Basically, you can throw yourself into a skill for four years and gain a 
> temporary +1 to that skill (ie. I am probably only computer-3, but since
> I am working at it all the time, I act as computer-4). At the end of 4
> years you can continue to throw your self improvement at this target
> (pretty sure I will), and then the bonus becomes permanent.
> 
> I have never had a useless character. I have never placed Jamison
> Starseeker
> either, so perhaps I am missing something <g>.
> 
> BTW: I was reading the gurps disadvantages (is that what they call them?).
> 
> What do you suppose being paraplegic in the 53rd century will be like? To
> misquote I magazine I recently read: I watch Star-Trek, so I know that one
> day every building will be fully handicapped accessible. Doors will open
> automatically when you approach them, elevators will go where ever you
> want
> them to, and (according the 'The Voyage Home' which I happened to catch 
> last night) Dr. McCoy will say, "Chemotherapy? What is this, the Spanish
> Inquisition?"
> 
> 
> -- 
> Rob Brady 685B57            Computer Geek, 4 terms
> Computer-4, Electronic-2, Streetwise-1
> "Don't even ask about quirks!"     robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:36:57
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 

At 12:16 PM 6/28/99 -0400, you wrote:

>BTW: I was reading the gurps disadvantages (is that what they call them?). 
>What do you suppose being paraplegic in the 53rd century will be like? To
>misquote I magazine I recently read: I watch Star-Trek, so I know that one
>day every building will be fully handicapped accessible. Doors will open
>automatically when you approach them, elevators will go where ever you want
>them to, and (according the 'The Voyage Home' which I happened to catch 
>last night) Dr. McCoy will say, "Chemotherapy? What is this, the Spanish
>Inquisition?"

There was one paraplegic NPC in Trail of the Sky Raiders.  I imagine that
most forms of nerve damage will be repairable, but in some cases there will
be no way to restore function in the lower body.

I'm currently playing with a GURPS write up for Arameth Gridlore.  Now Ari
was born in, and lived in, microgravity for the majority of his life.  He
has several disads surrounding this, like a very low strength, Skinny, Low
G-tolerance, and Quirks like "hates dirt" and thinks planet dwellers are
idiots"

Speaking from experience, chemotherapy *is* the Spanish Inquisition.  When
the nurse comes in wearing all sorts of gear to insure that not a single
drop of the stuff they are pumping into your veins touches her skin, you
gotta wonder.  Not to mention that bleomyacin (sp?) burns like hell until
it dilutes, making the entire arm with the IV feel like it's being eaten by
Army ants..  TL-8 medicine sucks.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 17:24:32 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>>If I were a marine officer I would carry whatever my men carried for a
>longarm. The old W.W.II German Sniper adage "Shoot the man with the
>carrying the M1 carbine and a pistol" comes to mind.
>
>screw that, shoot the radioman first, then whoever looks like he's competent.

The modern version is `shoot the one waving his arms around first.'

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 17:38:41 +0100
From: Matt Clonfero <Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

cos 90  wrote:

>The Imperium has been around for over 1100 years in the "present" of 
>most Traveller campaigns. What kind of "historical revisionism" is there
>in the year 1120 about past events? The Solomani Rim War and some of the
>early pacification campaigns are probably good starting points... 
>
>eg, What does a schoolchild in the Imperium learn about the Solomani
>Rim War, and how does it differ from what a schoolchild in the Solomani
>Confederacy learns?

That's what us Solomani call the War of Sylian Aggression...

Aetherem Vincere
Matt
- -- 
Matt Clonfero: Matt-C@aetherem.demon.co.uk    | To err is human, To forgive
My employer and I have a deal - I don't speak | is not Air Force Policy.
for them, and they don't speak for me.        |   -- Anon, ETPS.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 12:46:51 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

Keven R. Pittsinger writes:
<snipped>
"But *all* Moties are hermaphroditic, which isn't a bad lil 
survival trait..."
<snipped>

	Biologists are trying to figure out why organisms use
	sex at all (Yes, I know why I use it, but "why" in an
	evolutionary sense). The biggest advantage to sex that
	I have heard is that each time an organism reproduces
	sexually, it has a chance to reshuffle its genes with
	those of another individual. This allows some of your 
	offspring to loose nasty mutations that you have picked 
	up, or even pick up useful mutations that your mate has.
	So, being hermaphroditic has its advantages and
	disadvantages.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 12:50:58 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>;
traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)


>BTW: I was reading the gurps disadvantages (is that what they call them?).
>What do you suppose being paraplegic in the 53rd century will be like? To
>misquote I magazine I recently read: I watch Star-Trek, so I know that one
>day every building will be fully handicapped accessible. Doors will open
>automatically when you approach them, elevators will go where ever you want
>them to, and (according the 'The Voyage Home' which I happened to catch
>last night) Dr. McCoy will say, "Chemotherapy? What is this, the Spanish
>Inquisition?"


There is a comment in one of the GURPS books that prosthetics and limb
cloning can be assumed to be rather common, so, in a High-Tech universe
players should come up with a reason why they are "still" disabled.

As a result, I don't think that every building would be fully accessible to
those who are handicapped. I think this would be a rare sight and the would
exist only on worlds with low tech levels.

However, I just got this great image in my head... MedTraders. The crews of
these merchant ships include those who are well trained in high-tech medical
techniques. They jump from world to world on a circuit selling what low-tech
folks will pay most for: a way to circumvent disabilities. They carry the
best generic prosthetics money can buy: arms, legs, eyes, high-tech
pacemakers, stuff like that. Some see their role as a romantic ideal:
providing relief to the unfortunate. Others, however, are opportunistic and
they pore over newsfeeds and are often the first to arrive after rebellions,
wars and disasters...

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:56:24 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: 001-0

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> What day way the founding day of the Third Imperium?
> 
> Excel 97 has a date function that says Jan 9 4531 is a Tuesday. That is
> theoretically the benchmark date.
> 
> BUT, is it a Tuesday?
> 
> Does the Excel 97 function recognize Feb 29 4000 as a valid date? The
> Traveller Solomani calendar (perhaps at odds with the current concept of the
> Solomani calendar) says that every 4th year is a leap year, but the 00 years
> are not, but every 400th year is (ie, 1600, 2000, 2400). That makes 4000 a
> leap year. The Traveller universe makes the further adjustment that years
> divisible by 4000 are not leap years.
> 
> If the excel function recognizes Feb 29 4000 as a valid date, then Jan 9 4531
> isn't a Tuesday. What should it be?

Hmm...'cal' on our Digital Unix box claims to be accurate for years
1-9999

cal 2 4000 gives:

       February 4000
Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
         1   2   3   4   5
 6   7   8   9  10  11  12
13  14  15  16  17  18  19
20  21  22  23  24  25  26
27  28  29

cal 1 4531 gives:

       January 4531
Sun Mon Tue Wed Thu Fri Sat
     1   2   3   4   5   6
 7   8   9  10  11  12  13
14  15  16  17  18  19  20
21  22  23  24  25  26  27
28  29  30  31

Jan 9, 4531 is indeed a Tuesday, unless the underlying algorithms in
both MS Excel and Digital Unix 4.0 are both wrong, identically.

I vaguely recall having seen, somewhere, the algorithm for determining a
day for a given date, but for the life of me I can't remember where. If
It bubbles to the surface, I'll look it up and pass it along.




- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:03:05 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Armor update

Better that than a groinal eggbeater attachment, though the vaccum
attachmentalways seemed rather twisted to me.

"Engage Panic Circuits...Panic Circuits Engaged...Yiiihiiiii!"

Kryten

(my windows startup sound incidentally.  My shut down is Holly shouting:
"Abandon Ship Abandon Ship! Oh damn, the sirens gone! Awooga Awooga
abandon ship!" Rather approproate for this system.)

Tascelt@aol.com wrote:
> 
> But jesse...I saw your design plans, I really think the groinal laser in your
> suit is too much...paging Dr Freud ya know.     ;-)
> 
> TAS

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:10:20 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: paraplegia

At 09:36 AM 6/28/99 +0000, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>At 12:16 PM 6/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
>
>There was one paraplegic NPC in Trail of the Sky Raiders.  I imagine that
>most forms of nerve damage will be repairable, but in some cases there will
>be no way to restore function in the lower body.

Book 8, Robots says that at TL14 direct computer implants into the brain
are possible, though 3I basically keeps these for curing neurological
disorders, not for IQ enhancement. I imagine this would include running an
ethernet cable between T9 and T7, skipping that damaged batch of nerves at
T8 altogether...

Then again, Christopher Reeves thinks we will have spinal cord injury cures
in the next few years.

>Army ants..  TL-8 medicine sucks.

Must agree wholeheartedly!

- -- 
Steve Reeves sweats / and never takes a shower / Steve Reeves'
strong / he'll lift the Eiffel Tower! / Steve Reeves' name / will
carry on forever! / He's the man of the hour  -- Sea Monster
Rob Brady                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:49:04 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: 001-0

- -----Original Message-----
From: CardSharks@aol.com <CardSharks@aol.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: 28 June 1999 13:42
Subject: 001-0


>What day way the founding day of the Third Imperium?
>
>Excel 97 has a date function that says Jan 9 4531 is a Tuesday. That is
>theoretically the benchmark date.
>


Cool.  I'm currently writing a calendar converter program in Delphi for
traveller.  Enter in a date in either Imperial, solomani, Vilani, Aslan, or
Zhodani date format, and it'll convert it to give you the equivalent date in
all the others.

I was going to assume that 001-0000 was a Jan 1, on the basis that as the
Imperial calendar was based on the solomani calendar, it would make sense
for Cleon to announce that his new calendar will start on the first day of
the next (solomani) year.

Also, using the calendars as described in the MT Ref's Companion, the dates
given for various events in the chronologies soon seem to get out of sync.
What do you feel are the *true* base dates for the calendars? Do you (or
anyone else) have a definitive list of equivalent dates for 001-0000 (or any
other given date) in each calendar?

>BUT, is it a Tuesday?
>
>Does the Excel 97 function recognize Feb 29 4000 as a valid date?

Yes, it does.

>The Traveller Solomani calendar (perhaps at odds with the current concept
of the
>Solomani calendar) says that every 4th year is a leap year, but the 00
years
>are not, but every 400th year is (ie, 1600, 2000, 2400). That makes 4000 a
>leap year. The Traveller universe makes the further adjustment that years
>divisible by 4000 are not leap years.


I didn't know that Traveller made an adjustment in 4000, thanks :)

>If the excel function recognizes Feb 29 4000 as a valid date, then Jan 9
4531
>isn't a Tuesday. What should it be?


A Monday

>
>Marc
>

regards,

Matt

Matthew Bond
mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- --------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
.To run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #782
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 28 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 783



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Vilani Lies (was Re: Imperial Marines...)
Re: 001-0
Re: 001-0
RE: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 
Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)
Re: 001-0
Re: "Personalities In Traveller"
Re: CT Skills
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re: CT Skills
Re: CT Skills
Skill Levels (was Re: Vilani Lies)
Re: Imperial Marines
RE: Vilani Lies (was Re: Imperial Marines...)
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: CT Skills
Re: Xenobiology 101 (New Scientist article "How to design an alien")

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:23:09 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Vilani Lies (was Re: Imperial Marines...)

At 11:51 AM 6/28/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Remember Mother Earth!
>Alexis Tsunis, Brigade Commander, Rule of Terra
>(of course this is not my email - I had to steal this poor fools terminal
>to write anonymously. Computer-4, hah! His password was quite easily
>cracked. BTW:If you look it up, you'll find that Alexandrov Tsunis died at
>birth on Terra. Now _that_ took computer-4!)
>-- 
>Rob Brady 685B57            Computer Geek, 4 terms
>Computer-4, Electronic-2, Streetwise-1
>"Don't even ask about quirks!"     robb at datatone dot com

This has gotten me thinking, and an apology if this has been covered in the
distant past.  In a few weeks I'll be starting MCSE classes for
certification.  In the Traveller, what level of Computer skill would that
confer?  Or for that matter, if you get certified by Sun for Solaris or
gain A+ for hardware?

IMO, I would give it Computer 2 or perhaps Computer 3 with limitations on
how the skill applied.


Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 12:32:37 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: 001-0

Marc Miller <CardSharks@aol.com> wrote:

> What day way the founding day of the Third Imperium?
>
> Excel 97 has a date function that says Jan 9 4531 is a Tuesday. That is 
> theoretically the benchmark date.

I figured this out for myself once.  But, as I recall, the founding date
given in the GDW _Solomani_ alien module was 19 Jan 4521.  That turns out
to be a Sunday according to UNIX's cal(1) program.  If we implement the
4000-year correction Herschel suggested, then Holiday is a Saturday, and 
the first Oneday of 0 Imperial (002-0) is on the third Sunday in AD 4521.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:37:20 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: 001-0

At 08:37 AM 6/28/99 -0400, CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

>Traveller Solomani calendar (perhaps at odds with the current concept of the 
>Solomani calendar) says that every 4th year is a leap year, but the 00 years 
>are not, but every 400th year is (ie, 1600, 2000, 2400). That makes 4000 a 
>leap year. The Traveller universe makes the further adjustment that years 
>divisible by 4000 are not leap years.

This is the current concept of a leap year. 1900 was not a leapyear, but
2000 will be. 4000 will not be. This is because the length of a year is
not 3.25 but (IIRC) 3.241 days. (Or some other ridiculous number like that.
You'd think that knowing we were the center of the universe, things would
turn out differently.)

The algorithm for computing a the day of the week is stupid. Get a well
known date, for instance, January 1st 1900 was a Monday. (Great way to
start out the century <g>). Calculate number of days between january 1st
1900 and january 1st <your year> using the above leap year algorithm/kluge.
Count the number of days in between 1/1/<your year> and <your day> with a
table of 30 days hath september, april, june, and november, etc...
divide this whole mess by 7. The remainder (days modulus 7) is the day of
the week with monday being 0 (because of the well known date we picked).

Hmm... Should I import the imperial calendar into Office. I can then set a
reminder - email me two days before Cleon becomes Emperor. Then if I am 
busily working and not watching the news, I will know to send him an
online greeting card. (or course it will take several weeks to arrive...).

Besides, I think the Solomani Confederation uses their own calendar still.
Maybe it isn't ours, but it most certainly isn't based on the formation of
the 3I.

- -- 
I could not say I believe. I know! I have had the experience of being gripped
by something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God.
							-- Carl Jung
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:35:43 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: RE: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 

At 09:29 AM 6/28/99 -0700, you wrote:
>Imagine the standard 53rd century wheelchair...
>
>sensors
>grav + wheel driven
>tractor beams for handling things
>possible advanced optics
>radio/cellular commo
>mind impulse control
>satellite navigation

Sounds a lot like the kid's play chair from 101 Vehicles...

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 10:43:37 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)

Chris Seamans wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 1:23 AM
> Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)
>
> >Because the megacorps are going to be trying to corner the markets on the
> >civilised worlds.  I'm not saying *every* jerkwater planet's gonna make you
> a
> >killing, just that it's more likely that an independent will do better on
> one
> >than trying to cut out a megacorp on a high pop TL15 planet.  They just
> won't
> >have the resources to compete.

This is very true, however a freelance merchant can do best IMHO if he or she
skirts the edge between "backwater" and developed systems. Megacorps many times
ditch fractions of their cargo that have damaged cases or don't round out to
full cargo holds. And one never wants to be too far from a port able to make
repairs/modifications to your ship.

>
> Fair enough, not too far from my own idea of trade. Generally, in my
> developed areas, tramps carry the stuff the megacorps don't want to carry.
> In other words, the kind of stuff that makes for good adventures and
> scenarios.
>
> Before: "What's that? You need to get an adult Narinvan Mantis from Cameron
> to Wendell? Sure, we can do that!"
>
> After: "That jerk never told us that its diamond-hard teeth could rend
> through the standard transport cage. <sigh> Oh well, hopefully I can find
> another engineer at Wendell Down."

Now this is real free-trading, screw that fifty ton shipment of wood. Has any
body created a list of unusual cargoes? If I find mine, I'll post it.

>
> >> Am I to believe that free traders squeeze these guys with useless skills
> on
> >> their ships just in case they ever need someone to use a bow or drive a
> car
> >> with wheels?

I would say that the character learned those skills because he HAD to. Sounds
like a merchant working backwater systems in the service of an up-and-coming
trade consortium where such skills were very useful.

> The classic Traveller system was a system that was light on
> >> starting skill points anyway, and it was a little while before they even
> >> introduced a method to learn new skills or improve old ones.

CT skills are very "grainy" in ratings, it would be unwise to allow skill
advancment if skill resolution remained the same.

> >Where have you been adventuring???
>
> Usually in the more developed areas of the Imperium. That's what my players
> seem to like best.

Probably too scared of piracy in unpatrolled space. Pirates always make me
nervous.

> Fortunately, I've been blessed with a non-munchkin gaming group. Apparently,
> other folks have problems with this sort of player, and fortunately, I've
> never had to worry about this.

Lucky little Skin-Monkey. I am usually surrounded by "munchkins".

> For the record, we used the T4 rules the last time I ran a campaign, and we
> combined the two methods of character creation. T4 gives one skill per year
> and there are 4 years per term. The tables are set up so 1D decides the
> skill category and 1D decides the skill. Year 1: Roll for each. Year 2: Roll
> for category, pick skill. Year 3: Pick category, roll for skill. Year 4:
> Pick category and pick skill.

Very much like my arbiters choice of mixing High Guard with the basic CT
system, although you will note that this creates very skilled characters. I am
thinking of using this system for a home-rules campaign, but I think I will
convert skill resolution to something more like White Wolf's Storyteller
system. That should reduce the grainy nature of CT skill ratings.

> I *like* random character generation systems. I'm a diehard for them. I just
> never got along well with the CT / "Advanced" CT / MT systems. For some
> reason, T4 seemed to work very well, but it might have been the
> "combination" method that I came up with.

Never played any Traveller except CT, but I have to agree on liking random
character generation. The approach CT takes makes it like playing a whole other
game. I like generating characters even more than playing actually.

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:40:44 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: 001-0

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>; CardSharks@aol.com
<CardSharks@aol.com>
Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: 001-0


>I figured this out for myself once.  But, as I recall, the founding date
>given in the GDW _Solomani_ alien module was 19 Jan 4521.  That turns out
>to be a Sunday according to UNIX's cal(1) program.  If we implement the
>4000-year correction Herschel suggested, then Holiday is a Saturday, and
>the first Oneday of 0 Imperial (002-0) is on the third Sunday in AD 4521.


When Marc Miller says the Third Imperium was founded on January 9, 4531,
you'd better take his word for it ;)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 12:44:17 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Re: "Personalities In Traveller"

Bob Sanders posted:
>
>Someone asked:
>>This does lead me to ask a question.
>>
>>Would any combat vet on this list mind sharing
>>1) their reasons for joining the military
>>2) reasons they see for making the military a career.
>>
>>I'd appreciate it if you would also share the 
>>country/military branch you've had experience with
>>so I can pick up any differences.

That was me. And yes, I definitely still needed the
feedback.

To all of you who responded, thank you very, very
much. Your candor is greatly appreciated and has
helped me tremendously.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:02:29 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

> > Well... Okay. You got me. I *have* gotten some characters that are nearly
> > that bad. As an example: under vanilla CT character generation merchant
> > characters aren't guaranteed a single starship related skill until they
> > reach 1st Officer.
>
> Right.  (assuming Edu<8) They can only get:
> Blade CBT, Bribery, Gun CBT, Streetwise, Medical or +1 Str, Dex, or End.
> Those are useless for a merchant on a starship.

I don't think Medical is EVER useless, Bribery (Yes inspector, I know I shouldn't
be transporting Bio-Hazardous materials without proper papers, but all safty
precautions have been taken. Perhaps we can come to some sort of, eh, aggreement?)
and Streetwise (Jik, we are running behind, and I need you to find me some high
profit cargo to fill up that last ten tons of space. No, I don't care if the cargo
is "hot", I need PROFIT! Just be quick, alright?) are like way Han Solo, Attribute
bonuses(boni?) are always appreciated, and who ever turns down Blade or Gun CBT?

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:06:01 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

>From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
.
>	I haven't actually forgotten this. Rather, I still find
>	the Motie's extraordinary abilities hard to swallow. In
>	fact, their ability to geneer themselves just makes their
>	inability to overcome the reproduction problem all the 
>	more difficult to accept. Recall that it is not only 
>	physical features that were geneered, but intellectual

  ISTR from the novel that many of those features (including Brown gear-
headism?) were attributed to mutations that occurred in the aftermath of
the destruction associated with the first few cycles - if so (and there
were _lots_ of Moties and mutagens running around during those years) then
must Motie geneering skill at the time be much greater than that of a 17th C.
English gentleman sheep farmer?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:09:51 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

>
> Thought just occured to me:
>
> Limiting max skill level by appropriate attribute.
> Half the Attribute.
> Dex 6 limits Rifle to max of 3
> Edu 8 limits Physics to max of 4
>
> Thoughts?

I love it! I wonder if different types of skills might suffer lesser or greater
govenor settings?

>
> >         On promotion 1 skill at random from one of the tables (BTW,
> >                     I've never quite understood why you get a skill
> >                     when you are promoted.  It seems to me you'd get
> >                     a promotion when you reach certain milestones,
> >                     seniority or skill levels.)
>
> Sort of like Merchant Prince chargen?
> In a min-maxing sense, IMO, there should be some reward for promotion,
> either something gained directly (like a skill), or something that the rank
> enables (muster out bonuses, special skill tables, special schools, etc.).
> Else, why does it matter in chargen?  Else why is it desirable to the player
> (as opposed to the character)?  I have virtually no interest in creating a
> character that I want to play in GT with _any_ level of former rank,
> whatsoever.  I can spend that point somewhere else.  But I would really
> like to get 5 skills every year instead of just 4.
>
> --
> Bloo

My arbiter always allowed high rank to equate with background contacts, so
ranking military characters could try and finagle military surplus weapons and
equipment by calling in old favors, Merchant types could get trade information,
Scouts might know all kinds of odd rumours, etc.

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 14:08:56 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

Steve Daniels said:

>> Right.  (assuming Edu<8) They can only get:
>> Blade CBT, Bribery, Gun CBT, Streetwise, Medical or +1 Str, Dex, or End.
>> Those are useless for a merchant on a starship.


Hypercleats said:

>I don't think Medical is EVER useless, Bribery (Yes inspector, I know I
shouldn't
>be transporting Bio-Hazardous materials without proper papers, but all
safty
>precautions have been taken. Perhaps we can come to some sort of, eh,
aggreement?)
>and Streetwise (Jik, we are running behind, and I need you to find me some
high
>profit cargo to fill up that last ten tons of space. No, I don't care if
the cargo
>is "hot", I need PROFIT! Just be quick, alright?) are like way Han Solo,
Attribute
>bonuses(boni?) are always appreciated, and who ever turns down Blade or Gun
CBT?


No. Mr. Daniels was not saying that those skills are useless. They are
useless for a merchant on a starship. Medical doesn't quite work on the
drive system when it fails. You can't bribe the navigation computer when you
need to make a jump and you'll just look like an ass trying to use
streetwise to navigate through a planetoid belt. ;)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 14:14:38 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Skill Levels (was Re: Vilani Lies)

At 01:23 PM 6/28/99 -0400, Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
>At 11:51 AM 6/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
>

Are there still programs which cull everything after the "-- " out. I know
the TML archives don't.

>>Rob Brady 685B57            Computer Geek, 4 terms
>>Computer-4, Electronic-2, Streetwise-1
>>"Don't even ask about quirks!"     robb at datatone dot com
>
>This has gotten me thinking, and an apology if this has been covered in the
>distant past.  In a few weeks I'll be starting MCSE classes for
>certification.  In the Traveller, what level of Computer skill would that
>confer?  Or for that matter, if you get certified by Sun for Solaris or
>gain A+ for hardware?
>

I based my thoughts on Traveller, the silly era.
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/vacc.html
(You'll of course want to go back and look at the rest of the silly stuff
on this site.)

Basically, if I mustered out right now, I would probably get computer-3, but
because I am inside them all the time now, and constantly reading more stuff
I gave myself a 4 based on the LBB rules on experience. 

Translating vacc-suit to computer, I think this means: Talks to other
programmers about computers as if they were sexual experiences, can whip
up a program to do perfect hashing or large number calculations w/o 
reference materials. Has studied algorithms, AI, parser generation at a
graduate level and worked for a number of years in the computer industry.

Now electronics is another story. I think electronics-4 would include 'can
build a CPU using transistors and a breakout board'. I thought of this, 
never actually tried.



- -- 
I could not say I believe. I know! I have had the experience of being gripped
by something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God.
							-- Carl Jung
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:32:29 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

>From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Marines
.
>statements as I still don't see logic with the proposed "all marines in BD"
>rule.  However, being a GURPS thing, they can have whatever rules they like
>as I don't play GT (I guess I'm a CT loyalist).

  FWIW, under CT/Striker being in BD wasn't _that_ big a deal - a PGMP-14
still kills most bugs dead, and Combat Armour of the same TL offers a very
similar level of protection (mobility isn't augmented, but that won't matter
much for a lot of missions). The BD as super-suit is a post-CT aberratio^h^h,
er, _concept_...                <no! not the comfy chair!>

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"
        (but Space 1889 is quite cool, too)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 11:39:22 -0700
From: Jay.Alverson@phs.com
Subject: RE: Vilani Lies (was Re: Imperial Marines...)

my guess is that if you're doing what everyone else can do it's
computer-1 or computer-2  (specific system trained)

computer-3 to computer-5 would probably be for those who can make their
way on any type of system (ie, writing software/programs for *any* type of
system).  Protocols, etc are just a doorway...you've probably got alot
friends
associates who are in this too (helping).

computer-6 and up might be in the designer stage (you've done just about
everything else) from theory to actuality.  Hardware determines the
possibilities for the software...You dream it up, your 100+ computer-3 or
computer-4 guys develop it or your (AI computer program develops it).

So when you jump in-system, get to the starport and hook into their local
net, you'll need something to connect/talk/handshake and be able to do
searches with, probably fairly standard software, much like what we use
now.  Just super-powerful/efficient.

Anyone know what the OS looks like on a Cray?  (or the GUI, or whatever)
Does it just use UNIX?  Or something better?

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Kurt Feltenberger [SMTP:kurt@blazenet.net]
> Sent:	Monday, June 28, 1999 10:23 AM
> To:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject:	Re: Vilani Lies (was Re: Imperial Marines...)
> 
> At 11:51 AM 6/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >Remember Mother Earth!
> >Alexis Tsunis, Brigade Commander, Rule of Terra
> >(of course this is not my email - I had to steal this poor fools terminal
> >to write anonymously. Computer-4, hah! His password was quite easily
> >cracked. BTW:If you look it up, you'll find that Alexandrov Tsunis died
> at
> >birth on Terra. Now _that_ took computer-4!)
> >-- 
> >Rob Brady 685B57            Computer Geek, 4 terms
> >Computer-4, Electronic-2, Streetwise-1
> >"Don't even ask about quirks!"     robb at datatone dot com
> 
> This has gotten me thinking, and an apology if this has been covered in
> the
> distant past.  In a few weeks I'll be starting MCSE classes for
> certification.  In the Traveller, what level of Computer skill would that
> confer?  Or for that matter, if you get certified by Sun for Solaris or
> gain A+ for hardware?
> 
> IMO, I would give it Computer 2 or perhaps Computer 3 with limitations on
> how the skill applied.
> 
> 
> Kurt Feltenberger
> 
> "To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
>    may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
>      ~Stephen Decatur
> 
> 
> mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 14:46:06 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

- -----Original Message-----
From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 7:50 AM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...


>Well, as I now see it Matt, GURPS is comic book heavy on things like BD,
and
>in a sense, it is "de facto canon."

I'll call your bluff. Seeing as you take great pains to point out that you
don't read comic books, what exactly is "comic book heavy" about GURPS
Traveller Battle Dress?

>If there is still a T-5 system in
>production, then surely it must be what you would call "Traveller canon,"
as
>I assume (and again I may be wrong) it is based on the established
Traveller
>history the older Traveller players started off with.


My own canon line is something like this:

Marc Miller is way at the top of the period. He is the creator of Traveller
and the Third Imperium setting.

Loren Wiseman runs a close second. He worked closely with Marc, and he was a
strong influence on the Traveller universe.

Official GDW Classic Traveller materials are next on the list, including
JTAS.

Official GDW MegaTraveller and TNE materials are next.

DGP is next. They are spoken of highly, but they never seemed to make it to
my area. I've never actually seen a DGP product...

I find it vaguely insulting that you are attempting to invoke the grognard
rule here. By the time you read this, you will most likely have seen
Christopher Thrash's post concerning Loren Wiseman's JTAS article on the
subject of Imperial marines. Specifically, I call your attention to the
statement "All marines are equipped with battle dress, and are armed with
FGMP-14s."

Obviously, anybody can play Traveller in any of its incarnations as they
would like. However, it's not very sporting to try to imply that your own TU
is "canon" because you think that you might have been playing longer.

>Therefore, in GT, you have every IM in BD with micronukes, while in CT,
IM's
>have to work to earn their BD-skill, let alone a suit of BD.  This suits me
>fine if that's the way it is meant to be.  GT IM's = vehicle (suit) crew
>(suiters perhaps?), while CT IM's = multi-role, ground fighting forces.


If you'll pardon my asking, can you please find me a Classic Traveller canon
reference that says that Imperial Marines have to "work to earn their
BD-skill, let alone a suit of BD."

This is not a personal attack on you, but you did invoke almighty canon, and
a level of "grognard empathy" with the universe of the Third Imperium. I'm
only asking you to back up your bold statements. ;)

Wow. I'll have to mark this date on my calendar! The first time I've ever
argued *in favor of canon!* ;)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 12:04:45 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

Chris Seamans wrote:

> Steve Daniels said:
>
> >> Right.  (assuming Edu<8) They can only get:
> >> Blade CBT, Bribery, Gun CBT, Streetwise, Medical or +1 Str, Dex, or End.
> >> Those are useless for a merchant on a starship.
>
> Hypercleats said:
>
> >I don't think Medical is EVER useless, Bribery (Yes inspector, I know I shouldn't
> >be transporting Bio-Hazardous materials without proper papers, but all safty
> >precautions have been taken. Perhaps we can come to some sort of, eh, aggreement?)
> >and Streetwise (Jik, we are running behind, and I need you to find me some high
> >profit cargo to fill up that last ten tons of space. No, I don't care if the cargo
> >is "hot", I need PROFIT! Just be quick, alright?) are like way Han Solo, Attribute
> >bonuses(boni?) are always appreciated, and who ever turns down Blade or Gun
> CBT?
>
> No. Mr. Daniels was not saying that those skills are useless. They are
> useless for a merchant on a starship.

Not.

> Medical doesn't quite work on the
> drive system when it fails.

That's the Engineer's job.

> You can't bribe the navigation computer when you
> need to make a jump

Navigator's job.

> and you'll just look like an ass trying to use
> streetwise to navigate through a planetoid belt. ;)

Pilot's job.

We do fully crew our starships, don't we?

I do wonder about a Merchant with no Admin. however. I can't roll up a
character in Merchants without getting Admin. by at least the third term.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 12:13:05 -0700
From: mdeck@quintcom.com
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (New Scientist article "How to design an alien")

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G'Day All,



I've seen a bit of interest on the list about "designing" aliens. This stuff was
from an old New Scientist article by Jack Cohen, and has a number of interesting
bits in it, and chunks I don't agree with too. All my comments are in [square
brackets] and you can take them as my opinion only...



How to design an alien

======================

[from New Scientist, 21 December 1991, Vol.132 No.1800 Page 18]



During 30 years as a university lecturer in reproductive biology, I have
lectured to many school audiences. I thought it was an important and enjoyable
part of the job. One of the most popular requests was for my favourite subject:
'The possibility of life on other planets'. I must have given this talk more
than 300 times, and over the years science fiction writers have heard about it
and come to use my 'expertise'. [Just ignore his self congratulatory note...]



Science fiction writers are in the business of giving us stories with an
alternative social or environmental background. They want the background to be
as authentic as possible. If the stories are based on another planet this means
building a new world ecology with a detailed evolutionary history so that the
plot does not have any obvious contradictions.



Over the years, I have been faced with many ideas about the kinds of aliens that
could be out there, but have always firmly rejected the usual anthropomorphic
(human-like) versions that some science fiction writers, as well as lay people
and professional scientists, have suggested. The famous geneticist Conrad
Waddington [Famous?! Well, to some perhaps!], for example, was sure that the
highest form of life on any Earth-like planet would closely resemble Waddington.
I reject this idea. Evolution is a contingent process: even if evolution on this
planet was run through again, the land vertebrates [The main point of this
article...] would be very unlikely to reappear and, even if something like them
did, their anatomies would have many important differences .



On any other planet, the chances of the same genetic systems as ours arising,
with the same oddities selected, leading to the same combinations of genes seem
slight. Finding another planet with our kind of dinosaurs or people is more
unlikely than finding a remote Pacific island on which the natives speak perfect
German or cockney rhyming slang.



So, if we can't have human beings or dinosaurs on alien planets, what are the
rules to use? Aliens cannot just be invented. 'Enter an intelligent gas cloud,
left . . .' does not work without a lot of build-up. Biologists have learnt some
rules from our own evolutionary stories. Although every detail must be
different, there are patterns of general problems, and common solutions to those
problems, that would apply to life anywhere in the Universe. The most useful
clue to such common, or 'universal', solutions is that several very different
organisms invented them separately on Earth. For example, aerial flight was
developed by the ancestors of birds, insects, and bats, and by the teleost
fishes.



Another example is photosynthesis, which was invented by several different
bacteria-type organisms (violet bacteria, cyanobacteria, and the ancestors of
green plants, and probably many more, now extinct). Yet another is evolutionary
symbiosis, in which several disparate organisms combine to make a much more
complex reproductive system, for example in the original eukaryote (nucleated)
cell, in termites and in cows, which have symbionts in their guts.



These universal solutions will, I am sure [Ah, to be sure...*grin*], be found on
pretty well all other planets with life. Many scientists think that such life is
extremely common in the Universe and that there are at least a million planets
with life even in our Galaxy. And, to answer your next question: yes, I do think
that intelligence [Wishful thinking. IMHO: intelligence doesn
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?t equate to tech.
society], though perhaps not self-awareness, is one of the universal solutions.
On this planet the cephalopods (octopuses, cuttlefishes [Interesting example.
Cuttlefish would be one of my alternatives that could have developed in place of
the vertebrates, but didn?t.] and squids), and several vertebrate clades
including carnivores, toothed whales and primates have achieved a great increase
in versatility of complex behaviour over their ancestors; I could argue for the
mantis shrimps, too, among the arthropods. So I reckon that there are plenty of
intelligent aliens, derived from diverse evolutionary pathways. That memorable
bar scene in the first Star Wars film may well have a real counterpart 'out
there'.



There are, however, many important 'accidental', contingent inventions too, such
as the suite of anatomical oddities that we, Waddington and all other land
vertebrates have inherited [Did they?  Early vertebrate evolution is
controversial!] from the fish-that-came-out-of-the-water (possibly
Eusthenopteron). These oddities I call 'parochial'; they would be specific to
one evolutionary line on one planet only. What do I mean by a universal or
parochial solution? I have argued that two of the adaptations explained so
whimsically in Rudyard Kipling's Just So Stories - how the elephant got its
trunk and how the giraffe got its long neck - could be examples of the same
universal solution. The elephant has immensely thick legs - surely a universal
solution to the problem of supporting bulk on a planet with a reasonably high
gravity. But it has a trunk, which looks like a contingent evolutionary
characteristic that could only occur on Earth. How the alien got its universal
characteristics Now look at the giraffe. We usually assume that the adaptive
advantage of a long neck is being able to browse on the higher branches not
reached by its competitors. But another way to view the giraffe is not primarily
as a peculiar feeder but as a peculiar strider. Because of its unusual
locomotion, the longer the front legs are, the faster it can run (its gait is
more of a 'pace' than that of most mammals). So selection may have been mostly
for longer legs, which took its head further from the ground. Feeding was not
difficult, because now it could, indeed, browse higher than its competitors, but
drinking was. Water is found only at ground level, so if you want to dr=
ink
without kneeling you need a long neck - or a trunk. These characteristics
provide the same solution to the drinking problem, not the browsing-competition
problem.



Alien evolutionary solutions would produce these subtly but deeply similar
solutions as well as the obviously similar ones. This is why a knowledge of the
local experiment in evolution is necessary for inventing and assessing alien
designs; it requires a generalisation of the biology we know. This involves
deeper, more divergent science than DNA-is-God-and-RNA-is-its-Prophet molecular
biology and is much more fun, too.



Every evolved creature will not only have the universal solutions; it will also
have its own special, peculiar set of parochial ones. Just as we can recognise
universals in our evolutionary story because they manifest themselves in many
diverse ways [Dubious argument, but I think I know what he means.], so we should
be able to recognise parochials because they happened only once. Sometimes,
however, we cannot tell if something happened once, or many times over. RNA and
replication may have originated many times in an abiotic world, or only once,
and then multiplied enormously - molecules are not stamped with their patent
date. Usually we can tell, however: mammalian-type hair, with its follicle and
papilla machinery, bird feathers, hydraulic locomotion in spiders, delicate
manipulation by multiple suckers in cephalopods are all parochials. These
evolutionary tricks contrast with the use of hairy structures by both mice and
bumblebees for thermal insulation, jointed exoskeletal limbs in crustaceans,
spiders and insects, and thin branched ends to limbs for manipulation by mammals
and insects, which are universals.



Some of our own parochial characters are common to all land vertebrates, and
were presumably 'invented' by our common ancestor, perhaps Eusthenopteron. We
all have ventral lungs, so the trachea opens ventrally from the floor of the
'throat'; consequently, all of us have airways that can get in the way of our
food-ways. This is an awful bit of design, and is one of the best arguments
against special creation. Our hands and feet have the common 'pentadactyl'
pattern, variations of which are characteristic of all the descendants of
Eusthenopteron but of no other organisms on this planet [Objection, your honor!
Somewhere in Nature I seem to remember seeing some paper on 6, 7, & 14 digit
amphibians from the Carboniferous era!].



Joints are a universal, but knees and elbows, five fingers - even bone - - are
parochial. The development of vertebrate gonads and their ducts is inextricably
mixed up with the kidneys and urinary ducts, and usually with the cloaca too. So
our 'instinctive' reproductive behaviour has all kinds of parasitological
hang-ups. It could have been anticipated that an intelligent vertebrate social
species would find much of its social excitement in sexual guilts [What the
hell?! I think this comes under the category of "brain fart"]. Aliens that do
not share this set of parochials (and few would share some of them) will not
have faces like ours at all - eyes, yes, but nose, external ears,
teeth-like-scales, no - and certainly will not share our interest in prurient
experience. No alien pornography of our kind, then. Some of the standard cliches
of science fiction come to pieces when they are viewed in this light.
Anthropomorphic aliens are everywhere, like Star Trek's Mr Spock - whose
evolutionary convergence is so close to us that hybrids can be made (when we cannot even breed with our brothers
and sisters the reptiles and fishes, or a cousin like the octopus). The Klingons
are obviously a device to save make-up, no more alien than our sibling species
the chimpanzees. I disbelieve all the flying saucer stories that have little
green men, not because they are little and green, but because they are men.
Little green splots would be so much more believable.



Science fiction writers have two opposing temptations when designing aliens -
towards and against aliens that resemble people. Towards, because the reader can
identify more easily and the extras for the film version are not so costly. And
against, because of scientific likelihood and the opportunities to exercise the
disciplined imagination. So there are many respectable aliens in literature, as
well as the strictly impossible such as Mr Spock. Hal Clement's famous story,
which he wrote in the 1950s, called Mission of Gravity [I?d like to read this,
has anyone else?], concerned the giant, rapidly rotating planet Mesklin. It had
a variable gravity of 600g at the flattened poles and only 4g at the equator.
The scenario was correct scientifically - Clement, alias Harry Stubbs, is a
college physics teacher.



The intelligent Mesklinites were like enormous centipedes, derived from aquatic
jet-propelled ancestors, and they have diverged in biology and culture. Their
culture near the north pole has all the phobias you would expect at high
gravity, but Clement exposes the world and its life to us via an odyssey to
rescue a United Planets probe that crashed at Mesklin's south pole. Barlennan,
the hero, is an odd Mesklinite who is prepared to endure psychological stress -
like being six inches above ground, or having a heavy object above him briefly -
in order to learn new things. Like most 1950s aliens, Barlennan and his crew are
really dressed-up Americans in outlook, but the book is one of the first
systematic attempts to invent a world, and it is still fun to read.



One of the best-realised alien cultures, found in Larry Niven and Jerry=
Pournelle's book The Mote in God's Eye, is much more complex and alien =
[I feel the same, but a biologist friend of mine still thinks they?re little green men
with funny backbones *grin*]. During an alien war, for example, the so-called
'watchmaker' variants of the aliens not only invade human ships, but repair and
improve their equipment too - and that is a necessary part of both the ambience
and the plot. Other aliens in Niven's books inhabit his Known Space: a
moderately consistent fictional construct with about 20 well-worked-out kinds of
aliens. He has Outsiders, exposed to space on their skeletal 'spaceships',
following the Star-Seeds on their 100 000-year cycle into and out of the Galaxy
(I do not think we are ever told what Star-Seeds are), and serving as
information-brokers. There are the cowardly Puppeteers, the Bandersnatchi, great
galleon-like creatures on many planets, disseminated by the ancient Slavers - no
one knows if they are intelligent. Some of you will have met this universe in
Niven's best-selling novel Ringworld, or others of the series. You may know of
Jim White's Hospital Station series, too, in which a plethora of unlikely - that
is to say, likely - aliens crew a space hospital. White imports a series of
puzzles, one per story, to exercise the hospital's staff and the reader's mind.
I helped White with many of these. Some of my ideas have also got into Niven's
Known Space stories, but my best known alien contribution to Niven is probably
the grendels [He admits inventing grendels!!!  Such a boring alien!  A crocodile
on speed - and even then such a poor one, to this day I don't know whythey
needed to invent the magic go-juice instead of better muscle/bone leverage, or
some group-hunting mechanic, in fact, a whole bunch of things that are more
likely to evelove than magic go-juice. And the ecology! So simple! - ahhhhh
don't get me started - my opinion of grendels are off-topic].



I have helped Brian Aldiss a bit with his Heliconia series, despite the
unlikelihood of Heliconia's anthropomorphic creatures. Heliconia is a world
orbiting in a complex planetary system of a binary star such that its seasons
last hundreds of years. Aldiss uses these bizarre (and impossible) climatic
swings to probe the social structures on a world of exotic but Earth-like
creatures. Aldiss works the aliens into our minds much as stories of earlier
eras used goblins and ghosts and long-legged beasts. His aliens latch onto our
myths, and Aldiss then twists our real-world perceptions most agreeably - his
aliens do not have to be likely, they have to be potent symbols, and I was happy
to be able to help with this artistic, rather than scientific, endeavour.



I have not yet invented any aliens of my own because I am convinced that aliens
would be so different as to make any interaction with humans unlikely. And that
would not make much of a story. But there are two science-fiction universes
where I have contributed ideas about the interaction between humans and alien
life forms: Harry Harrison's West of Eden series, and Annie McCaffrey's Dragons
of Pern series. In Harrison's novels, the meteorite supposedly did not hit the
Earth at the end of the Cretaceous period and kill off the dinosaurs and their
relations. The result was that intelligent reptiles, the Yilane, developed from
mosasaurs. I was able to create a credible world-view for them, because they are
our cousins.



McCaffrey's Dragons of Pern was more difficult. McCaffrey had already invented
alien life forms: 'Thread', an irrational 'menace' which rained down from the
skies of Pern and 'destroyed everything organic'; and fire-lizards, an
indigenous life form from which the dragons she needed for her plots had been
engineered. She had written most of the later stories before we cooperated on
the 'first' one. Nevertheless, McCaffrey's dragons have been made by people,
engineered from local life forms to solve a problem by symbiosis with people, so
it is alright to assume that there is a mutual understanding between people and
dragons. What was really difficult was putting together all the other props into
a consistent alien ecology [I agree].



Even if interaction with way-out alien life forms causes problems, there is
another way that a biologist like me can enjoy thinking about alien life. This
involves testing my evolutionary paradigms by generalising them to wider
contexts. Universal evolutionary solutions are OK, but how do you test invented
alien parochials? My test has been, again: 'if an organism on Earth solves a
particular problem using a parochial trick, this shows it is possible' for an
alien. I gave a talk at the World Science Fiction Convention in 1979, and was
challenged to invent likely evolutionary scenarios for a variety of famous types
of alien - by their creators. I have done this publicly some tens of times since
then, and it has been fun.



I will give you an example of a tiny bit of constructed evolutionary history for
an invented alien creature. The creature is the Tribble, famous from David
Gerrold's episode of Star Trek in which they provided the major story line.
Tribbles are, when we see them on the screen, galaxy-wide cuddly pets. They are
furry hemispheres with almost no features, but of many different colours. We are
told that they eat almost anything organic, and that they are prolific breeders.
Indeed, they 'devote half of their metabolism to reproduction', are 'born
pregnant' and 'reproduce at will'. In the course of the story they multiply
amazingly, especially in dark cupboards and other spaces. They make a purring,
trilling sound when stroked, which seems to soothe everybody's nerves. They seem
most unlikely aliens.



One of the least believable characteristics of the Tribbles is that everybody -
except the Klingons - loves them. Clearly they are symbionts, eating anything -
anything? Who would want a symbiont that ate everything? You could not leave any
food about. But just a moment, they would eat faeces, wouldn't they? Like
village dogs in the tropics, they would clean up after their hosts. Let us
imagine a burrowing alien whose food, perhaps a grass-like plant, is eaten
outside the burrow - something like a rabbit, mouse or marmot. The last is
potentially interesting, because marmot burrows can be shared, by a burrowing
owl and a rattlesnake. Let us imagine the alien or 'exo-marmot' burrow also
inhabited by a couple of very different predators. A slug-like detritivore would
find rich pickings in abandoned burrows. Perhaps, later, some exo-marmots would
welcome a creature that acts as a Hoover.



This 'proto-Tribble' would lose any characteristics that made its ancestor
repellent or obvious as it adapts to living with its exo-marmot symbiont. Those
that do not get noticed by the other inhabitants of the burrow system do even
better. So the Tribbles lose an obvious head, sense organs and proper locomotory
organs as they become the 'every burrow should have one' general symbiont. The
requirements of their breeding system, however, are very stringent: they must be
continent within the burrow, but be able to multiply extremely rapidly if they
get a chance to colonise a new burrow system. This is similar to the problem
faced by Gyrodactylus, a monogenean ectoparasite of fishes, which should not
dam-age its host fish (but frequently does, in ponds and aquaria) but should
multiply rapidly on a new host. This parasite has two, or even three,
generations in its uterus, and sperm from its last few matings can invade any
mature embryos. The parasite can be a grandmother even before it is born. On
transfer to a new fish, the embryos, and their embryos, hatch quickly and each
generates more babies from the mixed sperm population that they all inherit. In
the same way, our proto-Tribble could be 'born pregnant', and each Tribble would
be many genetic lines, not just one individual's genetics (that is why so many
differently coloured Tribbles appeared all over the Starship Enterprise, of
course). I have a picture of them creeping out of their individual burrows on
moonlit nights, mating on the exo-grass and returning with their renewed genetic
diversity (but I have not assumed an egg-sperm system, which might be a
parochial; diploidy [My biologist friend says: Diploidy =3D 2 chromosomes. Two
chromosomes are a necessary safeguard against information loss. Egg-sperm system
are almost certainly local - but some means of generating random mixing of
proven genetic patterns may be universal] or an equivalent is probably a
universal).



The exo-marmot, however, did not stay like that; it evolved slowly towards a
kind of universal innkeeper organism, becoming intelligent and acquiring many
more guest symbionts to add to its original couple of predators. Young
exo-marmots, much bigger now, were intrigued by Tribble behaviour - they bred
them for colour pattern and, later, for the purring sound. I have not space here
to give the long and eventful history of the exo-marmots; in the end, they never
managed to restrict population growth. They never learned from their Tribbles,
either the lesson of continence or the penalties of profligacy. Apart from
keeping science fiction readers and writers happy, why should scientists like me
be interested in inventing and criticising such alien life forms? Science works
by asking questions around what we think we know, of the type 'what might be . .
. ?' That is the way we generate theories, design experiments and test
explanations, so our prejudices about evolution on Earth can be tested against
hypothetical but rational alternatives. And it is worth remembering that science
fiction is a hidden, and often unappreciated asset to the scientific community.
A well thought out best-selling novel by Clement, Niven or McCaffrey does much
more for the public understanding of science than any number of public meetings
or worthy popularisations of science on television, or even in New Scientist.



JACK COHEN

Jack Cohen is a freelance reproductive biologist who consults with his right
hand and designs aliens with his left.



Cheers, Mike.
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Michael Deck.            Why isn't phonetic spelled the way it sounds? |
+------+ Systems Engineer, Information Services, Operations Group +------+
+------+ Quintessent Communication Inc. Bellevue, Seattle, U.S.A. +------+
| Email: mdeck@quintcom.com AIM:Zakimimula Ph: 425 201 2520 ICQ:2699820  |
+----------------------------------------------ooo-/*\-ooo---------------+
                                                  (O O)
                                                   |||
=

- --0__=H38CYakau9NqcUQ5V72H0ntDq6CW7OAUQuoKxevEEuCcY9wkElFePrsi--

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #783
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest        Monday, June 28 1999        Volume 1999 : Number 784



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 
Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)
Re: CT Skills
Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
How common is life (was: Re: Copyright information)
Re: Sandcasters
Re: CT Skills...and more!
We're not ALL GT out here (was Re: Battle Dress...)
Re: 001-0
I'renes
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)
Re: CT Skills
Re: FTL == time travel
RE: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:14:12 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 3:20 AM
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)


>IMTU, there aren't a whole lotta tramps flying in the developed areas, at
>least, not before the Rebellion anyways.  Now, they're starting to come
back,
>flying interface between the Wilds and the Safes, places where the
corporados
>don't *even* wanna be flying.


Well, it merely sounds like a clash of playing styles (more on that in a
second).

>> Usually in the more developed areas of the Imperium. That's what my
players
>> seem to like best.
>
>Personally, I like running around on the fringes.  Dunno why, but it
*seems*
>there's more action out there than around the center of the Imperium.


I think that there are different kinds of action. In the more developed and
established areas, you're going to have alot more intercorporate "black
ops," since, to some extent these things are almost legal. Stuff like
kidnapping, assassination, data and research theft, headhunting, defections,
stuff like that.

>For me, the challange is to roll something up and *play* it as it falls.
>More on this in a bit...


To be honest, I agree. There are certain considerations that Traveller has
that many other games don't. Andy Slack went into some of these
considerations years ago in his excellent White Dwarf article "Backdrop of
Stars," and many of them hold true today.

What I mean, Keven, is that you, from what I've seen, have an excellent grip
on canon. You can put those random rolls together and create a character who
has depth and who you feel you can play. Hamlin's a great character, but it
also looks like he was blessed with a number of good skills.

Unfortunately, not all players have the same knowledge of the universe going
in. While I don't doubt you can create an effective merchant character with
bow combat, groundcar and admin skills, not everybody can.

>Hamlin's straight outta 'Merchant Prince', and I was happy with how he
ended
>up.  We worked the Handgun-4 into his bio as him being on the corporate
>Shooting Team that was trendy in the Deneb area for about 5, 10 years
(copped
>a gun & a couple more Gun Cbts as material bennies).  And he has serious
>problems adjusting his thinking from 20 years of 'right way, wrong way,
>Sharurshid way', even though no corporation will bother talking to him
about
>a job due to Sharurshid's blackballing him when he quit.
>
>All in all, a fun guy to hang with.  And a guy who's looking to skipper his
>own boat someday.


That's exactly my above point! ;)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 14:21:20 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
> 
> At 09:29 AM 6/28/99 -0700, you wrote:
> >Imagine the standard 53rd century wheelchair...
> >
> >sensors
> >grav + wheel driven
> >tractor beams for handling things
> >possible advanced optics
> >radio/cellular commo
> >mind impulse control
> >satellite navigation
> 
> Sounds a lot like the kid's play chair from 101 Vehicles...

Add a couple centimeters of superdense, slap on a plasma cannon or two,
and you have Ditzie's Go-kart.

<<snip sig>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:27:10 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

- -----Original Message-----
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 3:05 PM
Subject: Re: CT Skills


>> No. Mr. Daniels was not saying that those skills are useless. They are
>> useless for a merchant on a starship.
>
>Not.


<Must bite my tongue... Must bite my tongue...>

ARGH!

1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10... Okay, I'm better now. Let's take
things from the top.

>That's the Engineer's job.

>
>Navigator's job.
>
>Pilot's job.


Thnk you very much for informing me that fixing the drive when it breaks is
the engineer's job, navigating the ship from star to star is the navigator's
job, and piloting the ship is the pilot's job. I never would have figured
that out.

>We do fully crew our starships, don't we?


If you would have deigned to try to understand my original point, perhaps
you wouldn't have needed to resort to base sarcasm. It is possible to roll
up a character that doesn't have a single ship-based skill. Hence, it is
quite difficult for him to be part of that fully crewed starship that you
allude to... which takes us back to square one, there'd be little reason for
him to be on the free trader in the first place, except to use his
specialized abilities when they're called for, and that means that in the
Third Imperium your average free trader must be packed like a Tokyo subway.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 12:33:41 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:25:27, "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

>>ObTrav:  Traveller military personnel (at least those generated with
>>Mercenary or High Guard) seem to be _much_ more competent in combat than
>>either redshirts or Stormtroopers.

>Nature of film/TV.  Realistic infantry combat would involve a flurry of
>shots, each side throwing smoke, and calling in artillery.
>
>Also, television and film have to tone down what really happens when you
>shot someone.  Imagine the sequence when the Stormtroopers break into
>Leia's ship in the early parts of SW:ANH.  Instead of that tidy little
>corridor, imagine rebel troops half-burned, loose organs spilled onto the
>deck, a mutilated Stormtrooper screaming for his mother.. sort of loses the
>space opera touch..

Also, if the Storm Troopers didn't miss the first shots, any surprise
would show the storm trooper shooting the protagonists and killing them
and would tend to bring the movie to an end.  :-)
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 12:31:15 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: How common is life (was: Re: Copyright information)

> The odds of life existing are remote in the first place.  The
>odds of there being two planets in this galaxy with life on them is
>staggering.

This is not known at all.  It is currently believed that life
began "quickly" on the _Earth_.  There is solid evidence of life
3.5 billion years ago and decent evidence for life 3.9 billion
years ago.  The planet was almost certainly uninhabitable more
than 4.2 billion years ago and the "late heavy bombardment"
(which is thought to have impactors big enough to sterilize the
planet) is thought to have lasted until about 4 billion years
ago.  It can be claimed that the error bars in estabishing the
length of the interval are bigger than the interval itself.
Basically, life is thought to have arisen over a period of
0-700 million years.

The idea that life began so quickly on Earth has lead to the
speculation that life is common (and increased interest in seeing
if there was ever any life on Mars or Europa).  However, this
is, indeed speculation.  It is based mostly on the assumption
that there is nothing "special" about the Earth.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 12:16:47 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: Sandcasters

On 06/28/99 at 07:29 AM,  Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca> said:

>At 12:01 AM 28/06/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>>What is canon as to how sandcasters are used?  

>        Its a missile with an alblative sand in it...  the missile is
>fired "up threat" towards probable origins of laser or missile fire. 
>The missile/ canister sails out, explodes and creates a "slick" or
>"plume" of material between the ship and the threat.  The sand has a
>vector...  which means that if the ship does anything but station
>keeping, it leaves the plume behind and will have to disperse more
>sand next round.

>        Incoming energy weapons fire is absorbed by the sand. 
>Missiles can be damaged when passing through the cloud or proximity
>fuses triggered by the cloud.

Ah, um! ;->

OTOH, it *could* be a cloud of magnetically charged (or
gravitationally suspended) particles that are held in place for a
few turns by a field generated by the ship.  In which case the
"sand" would travel along with the ship...for a while.  The downside
could be that the sand reduces the ship's sensors to 0 along the
covered arc while in use.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 14:27:23 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills...and more!

On 06/28/99 at 03:56 AM,  Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:


>Thought just occured to me:

>Limiting max skill level by appropriate attribute.
>Half the Attribute.
>Dex 6 limits Rifle to max of 3
>Edu 8 limits Physics to max of 4

>Thoughts?

Hum...well, I can understand the reasoning behind it, and in CT (and
maybe MT) it makes some sense.  

A brief synopsis of how the different Traveller systems looked at
Characteristic and Skill levels...

In CT, Attribute (Characteristic) levels were only sometimes used
and then mainly as a +/- 1 DM on a 2d6 roll.  Skills (if you had
them) were more important than the Att although their average level
(~1.5) was only about 1/3 the average ATT level (7).  What really
dominated was the 2d6 roll.  I don't recall a lot of complaints
about it, at the time, but then I wasn't "hooked up" with a large
group of vocal folks like the TML then.  ;->

In MT, Attributes were used at A/5, so the range was 0 to 3 with 1
most common.  This meant that Skills were still more important than
the Att (and by about the same amount), and the 2d6 roll was still
most important of all when it came down to doing things.  The
largest complaints I recall hearing about the MT task system were
that the Att was undervalued, and the Task Level steps
were...(something or other...hard to remember?  Was that it?).
Actually, I think most people *liked* the MT system...didn't like
the errata.

With TNE, things turned on their head..it seems to me.  The Att and
the Skill had equal weight in the Task resolution, *but* the Att
averaged about twice as high as the skill (even though you got more
skills than before).  So, here the Att level became more important
than the Skill, and lots of folks didn't like that.  Then there was
the 1d20, I think that bugged CT purists more than even the V word.
;-> Thing is, this system does *work* pretty well, and is, darn it,
down right elegant.

T4 stayed with full Att + skill, so Att remained too dominate in
many people's opinion.  OTOH, it used multiple d6's, rather than the
d20, so a lot of us old CT folks were more willing to give it a
shot.  ;-> Think is T4 broke down on hard tasks making them too easy
for most people's tastes.  KB's alternative system actually fixes
the problems pretty well, but it isn't official.  Heck, I get the
feeling that it is actively disliked by the only source of official
approval/disapproval we have.

Personally, I think I would prefer a system where the *average*
Skill level is about the same as the *average* Attribute level.
Maybe like MT, but with Att/3 rather than 5 and a broader range of
Task levels.  Here Skill is still a little more than Att, but they
are much closer. Example:

(A/3+S+2d6) against task level. 

Average Guy: ATT 7 (7/3=2), Skill 2 = 4+7 = 11

 3+  Easy           success
 6+  Routine        success
 9+  Difficult      83%
12+  Formidable     42%
15+  Staggering      8%
18+  Hopeless       failure
21+  Impossible     failure


.or like TNE, but with the first time you gain a Skill you roll a
d6 rather than just take 1 level (this boosts average Skill levels
by 2.5) and, on average, makes the two parts of an an Asset just
about the same.  Then the Task could be Att+Skill, Skill+Skill, or
Att+Att >= (some D) and it would all work out. 

I see two possibilities for the dice and Task difficulty to go,
either 3d6 and +/- numbers for the different levels or 1d20 and the
normal */ of TNE.  Frankly, I think the TNE method is the most
elegant way to go, as per...

Average Guy: Att 6, Skill 5 = 11

Assetx4  Easy       44  95%
Assetx2  Routine    22  95%
Asset    Difficult  11  55%
Asset/2  Formidable  5  25%
Asset/4  Staggering  2  10%
Asset/8  Hopeless    1   5%
Asset/12 Impossible  0   5%

Sorry, about all this, but when Skills come up I start tinkering
again. ;->

>>         On promotion 1 skill at random from one of the tables (BTW,
>>                     I've never quite understood why you get a skill
>>                     when you are promoted.  It seems to me you'd get
>>                     a promotion when you reach certain milestones,
>>                     seniority or skill levels.)

>Sort of like Merchant Prince chargen?

Something like that, yes.

>In a min-maxing sense, IMO, there should be some reward for
>promotion, either something gained directly (like a skill), or
>something that the rank enables (muster out bonuses, special skill
>tables, special schools, etc.). Else, why does it matter in chargen? 
>Else why is it desirable to the player (as opposed to the character)? 

I agree you should get something, but I don't think it should be an
automatic extra skill level.  Um..maybe the number of rolls you get
on the mustering out tables equal 1 plus the number of promotions
and commissions you received in a career?  So, if you spend 20 years
in a career, but never get promoted you get only 1 roll when
mustering out, but if you get a commission and 4 promotions you get
6 rolls.  Now, *that* would make promotions desirable!  Makes some
sense too, a 20 year Private won't get the same benefits as a 20
year Major.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 14:35:17 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: We're not ALL GT out here (was Re: Battle Dress...)

On 06/28/99 at 09:25 PM,  "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au> said:

>> The type of action the I'rine will see in Book 4 Chargen:
>> Raid (2/11)
>> Counter Insurgency (2/11)
>> Police Action (2/11)
>> Ships Troops (2/11)
>> Inernal Security (1/11)
>> Garrison (1/11)
>> Training (1/11)

>This is where I have made my biggest mistake, looking at the
>Traveller Universe from a CT slant and past real history.  BD it
>seems is going to go from a highly prised, rare skill to a shoved
>down every marine player's throat in GT.

>I shall try and think of it in GT terms from now on (a system of
>traveller I don't care to play, but that is actually beside the
>point).  

Roc, you sound bitter.  Don't be.  There are still a lot of us out
here that aren't completely bought into GT's way of doing things.
There is a lot of good material in the GT books, but everyone can
pick and choose the parts they want to use and adapt to their games.
If every Marine is a BD pilot that won't be a part I use, and that's
okay with me.  I'm used to going my own way, it's part of being a
heretic, you know.

Now, *you* can be a heretic, too!  I promise it only hurts for a bit and
then you don't feel a thing.  ;->

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:00:09 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: 001-0

Chris Seamans wrote:

> When Marc Miller says the Third Imperium was founded on January 9, 4531,
> you'd better take his word for it ;)

Hey, it's just as possible for Marc to misread old notes as it is for
any of us!  :)  (Or for me to be totally off-base; but I *swear* this
is what I remember....)

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 19:57:27 GMT
From: scharlto@ifsna.com
Subject: I'renes

I don't know who was the first person to coin the term "I'rine" for the
Imperial Marines, but it is going stright into my guidebook for Marine PCs
in my campaign!  There may even be some obnoxious stuff like calling
Marines 'Ladies' 'cuz they are all Irenes, or having a unoffical 'Love Song
for Irene' as the Marine trooper's marching song.

As for my universe; all Marines get trained in Battle Dress (at least for
familiarization) and have it issued.  It is the preferred gear for combat
but it is NOT always used in combat (due to space considerations,
psychological or political reasons).  But all the Marines have a suit of BD
fitted to their frames; some Marines end up wearing them only at annual
maneuvers, some Marines wear the same suit through many battles in a
20-year combat career, and some Marines get new suits every few years
because of battle damage, transfer to a recon or commando unit, or
promotion to officer.  When the Marine leaves the Corps, the suit is
recycled for a new Marine, or scrapped for parts.  It is not available as a
muster-out benny.

And since the Battle Dress armor value is not that much better than Combat
Armor, BD does not become an invincible walking fortress; BD Marines die, a
bit slower than Combat-Environment Suited Marines, but they die
nonetheless.

Steve Charlton

Steve Daniels wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I guess what's troubling to me is that Doug's vision of the I'rine's is
different from what I'm used.  Not bad, just different.  The picutre I have
involves BD as a rare sight.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:02:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

- --- Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com> wrote:

> From "Imperial Marine Task Force Organization", by Loren Wiseman,
> JTAS#12, pp. 42-45:
> "Line marine units are equipped to tech level 15 standards. Marines
> used as
> ship's troops usually lack vehicles, and are armed with hand-carried
> weapons only. All marines are equipped with battle dress, and are
> armed
> with FGMP-14s. Unlike other units, even administrative and logistical
> (but
> not medical) personnel are equipped in this fashion, as all but
> medical
> personnel in a marine unit are expected to be able to fight."
> 
> So Doug is quite correct in insisting that all Marines be battle
> dress
> troopers. I suppose the slogan becomes "Every Marine a Trooper." I'll
> have
> to think about what implications this has for operations less than
> full-blown combat.

I have no trouble with them all having issue battledress but I 
cannot envision an elite force that is so lacking without 
their special toy. Imperial Marines without BD should still 
be something to make most yahoos run for cover. As fast as they 
can. 
 
If GT is going the route that IM's are exclusivly BD, I disagree 
and will chart the course of the heretic. IMTU they will be something
to be feared with or without BD.

Terry 
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:04:36 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

Steven Hudson writes:
"ISTR from the novel that many of those features (including 
Brown gear-headism?) were attributed to mutations that occurred 
in the aftermath of the destruction associated with the first 
few cycles - if so (and there were _lots_ of Moties and mutagens 
running around during those years) then must Motie geneering 
skill at the time be much greater than that of a 17th C. English 
gentleman sheep farmer?"

	It's been a while, but I thought that it was implied that
	the Moties had geneered themselves. I would find it
	even more difficult to believe that the Moties could have
	been bread from random mutations, given the extreme 
	specialization and ability that they displayed.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:07:36 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)

Chris Seamans wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 3:20 AM
> Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)
>
> >IMTU, there aren't a whole lotta tramps flying in the developed areas, at
> >least, not before the Rebellion anyways.  Now, they're starting to come
> back,
> >flying interface between the Wilds and the Safes, places where the
> corporados
> >don't *even* wanna be flying.

Sounds like my kind of game! :)

> >Personally, I like running around on the fringes.  Dunno why, but it
> *seems*
> >there's more action out there than around the center of the Imperium.
>
> I think that there are different kinds of action. In the more developed and
> established areas, you're going to have alot more intercorporate "black
> ops," since, to some extent these things are almost legal. Stuff like
> kidnapping, assassination, data and research theft, headhunting, defections,
> stuff like that.

No doubt. Query: How almost legal? There seems to be a strong undercurrent of
"shady dealings" in my arbiters campaign(he's very good at GMing), and I
alway's get nervous with black ops. I am not a strong Imperial sympathizer, but
neither do I want to get on their "bad side". Additionally, the less "almost
legal" actions are, the more cut-throat the participants usually are, so...  ;)

> >For me, the challange is to roll something up and *play* it as it falls.
> >More on this in a bit...

Amen.

> To be honest, I agree. There are certain considerations that Traveller has
> that many other games don't. Andy Slack went into some of these
> considerations years ago in his excellent White Dwarf article "Backdrop of
> Stars," and many of them hold true today.
>
> What I mean, Keven, is that you, from what I've seen, have an excellent grip
> on canon. You can put those random rolls together and create a character who
> has depth and who you feel you can play. Hamlin's a great character, but it
> also looks like he was blessed with a number of good skills.

Very nice skills! ;)

> Unfortunately, not all players have the same knowledge of the universe going
> in. While I don't doubt you can create an effective merchant character with
> bow combat, groundcar and admin skills, not everybody can.

Some of the resposibility lies on the arbiter as well. A party can be rounded
out with a non-player character, the campain can focus on what you are good at,
"freebie skills" etc. can be given in moderation (it IS *your* game), or
secondary characters can be added. The Traveller Universe has the nice aspect
of an enormous backdrop of a variety of tech levels to stage a campain. You
could easily mis-jump and crash-land into nearly any setting, or augment
low-tech skills with high-tech tools (T15 Compound Bow w/ HUD and HEAP
Gyro-Shafts (tm) anyone?).

> >Hamlin's straight outta 'Merchant Prince', and I was happy with how he
> ended
> >up.  We worked the Handgun-4 into his bio as him being on the corporate
> >Shooting Team that was trendy in the Deneb area for about 5, 10 years
> (copped
> >a gun & a couple more Gun Cbts as material bennies).

<western drawl>I said draw, human!</western drawl> ;)

> And he has serious
> >problems adjusting his thinking from 20 years of 'right way, wrong way,
> >Sharurshid way', even though no corporation will bother talking to him
> about
> >a job due to Sharurshid's blackballing him when he quit.

Nice campain texture bits, I love it!

> >All in all, a fun guy to hang with.  And a guy who's looking to skipper his
> >own boat someday.

Who isn't?

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:05:31 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 3:52 AM
Subject: Re: CT Skills


>LOL!  I was all prepared to pounce on you.  I caught it, but thought I'd
>be nice.  I figured you had meant to say Blade CBT instead, and was
>waiting for you to dig your way out of saying that a character with
>Blade-1,  Admin-1, and Ground Vehicle-1 was useless.  But then
>you went and dug the hole deeper.  ;-)


<Calls out from his hole> "Is it safe to come out yet?"

It was only meant to illustrate that, if there are issues with a chargen
system that makes it less effective for folks, then it's tough for me to
consider it as the be all and end all of canon.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:11:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel

Rob Brady wrote:

> http://caliban.physics.utoronto.ca/neufeld/FTL.stuff/throop.txt
> is probably a better explanation of how FTL violates causality,
> but once again the only way to violate causality in the
> Traveller universe is jump from a system that has a velocity
> of 0, to a system that has a velocity of near C (.82C is what
> is specifically mentioned). I don't think this is ever
> possible, because said system would pass into another hex in
> less than 4 years.

That's...well, let's back up a step.  I haven't really been following this
thread, so bear with me.  There's a more mathematical analysis at the same
site in http://caliban.physics.utoronto.ca/neufeld/FTL.stuff/acausal.ps.

As best as I can tell, the Traveller jump drive is defined in such a way
that there's a preferred reference frame; it behaves differently from the
ship's point of view depending on the relative speed between the ship and
some given world.  This violates special relativity.  If this *isn't* true 
we can build a time machine, which I think works as follows.

Let's say that we've got a ship that can teleport at an effective speed
of 1020x lightspeed (effectively jump-6).  It's also got a 6G drive.
We'll start at rest relative to Earth, and jump 20 ly (about 6 pc) away
to Remulak.  We exit jump at Remulak, still at rest relative to Earth.
While there, we refuel and accelerate away from Earth to some speed v,
spending time t in system.  Then we jump back to Earth; total trip time
measured at Earth is T.  Now, according to the analysis in acausal.ps,
we get a final equation which can be re-written in this case as

  T == 20(2/1020 - v) + t
       where t and T are in years and v is measured as a fraction of
       lightspeed.

If we don't accelerate relative to Earth at all while at Remulak (v == 0),
and spend 3 hours (0.000342 years) there, then elapsed trip time for the
ship as measured at Earth is
 
  T == 20(2/1020 - 0) + 0.000342 == 0.0396 year, or about two weeks.

Let's try that again, but this time we'll spend the three hours at Remulak
accelerating to 600 km/s (0.002 c) relative to Earth with our 6G drive. 
Elapsed trip time as measured at Earth is then

  T == 20(2/1020 - 0.002) + 0.000342 == -0.000442 year, or -3.87 hours.

.so, the ship ends up at Earth almost four hours *before* it left!

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:12:07 -0700
From: Jay.Alverson@phs.com
Subject: RE: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

Someone was complaining that the robots in the robot army in "Phantom
Menace" couldn't hit anything.

My friend said "neither could the stormtroopers."

Same npcs, different incarnation....

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	David P. Summers [SMTP:summers@alum.mit.edu]
> Sent:	Monday, June 28, 1999 12:34 PM
> To:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject:	Re: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
> 
> Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:25:27, "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> 
> >>ObTrav:  Traveller military personnel (at least those generated with
> >>Mercenary or High Guard) seem to be _much_ more competent in combat than
> >>either redshirts or Stormtroopers.
> 
> >Nature of film/TV.  Realistic infantry combat would involve a flurry of
> >shots, each side throwing smoke, and calling in artillery.
> >
> >Also, television and film have to tone down what really happens when you
> >shot someone.  Imagine the sequence when the Stormtroopers break into
> >Leia's ship in the early parts of SW:ANH.  Instead of that tidy little
> >corridor, imagine rebel troops half-burned, loose organs spilled onto the
> >deck, a mutilated Stormtrooper screaming for his mother.. sort of loses
> the
> >space opera touch..
> 
> Also, if the Storm Troopers didn't miss the first shots, any surprise
> would show the storm trooper shooting the protagonists and killing them
> and would tend to bring the movie to an end.  :-)
> ______________________________
> summers@alum.mit.edu
> (This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in
> California.)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #784
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 29 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 785



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)
RE: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 
Re: I'renes
RE: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines
Trade Routes question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:15:11 -0700
From: Jay.Alverson@phs.com
Subject: RE: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)

exactly...what's that thing they advertise on tv..."the Rascal".

How about a VRF Gauss gun, perhaps some aerosol agent...

"little nellie" in the James Bond movies (you only live twice)...

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Black ICE [SMTP:wombat@premier.net]
> Sent:	Monday, June 28, 1999 12:21 PM
> To:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject:	Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)
> 
> Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
> > 
> > At 09:29 AM 6/28/99 -0700, you wrote:
> > >Imagine the standard 53rd century wheelchair...
> > >
> > >sensors
> > >grav + wheel driven
> > >tractor beams for handling things
> > >possible advanced optics
> > >radio/cellular commo
> > >mind impulse control
> > >satellite navigation
> > 
> > Sounds a lot like the kid's play chair from 101 Vehicles...
> 
> Add a couple centimeters of superdense, slap on a plasma cannon or two,
> and you have Ditzie's Go-kart.
> 
> <<snip sig>>
> 
> -- 
> AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
> "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:16:54 -0700
From: Jay.Alverson@phs.com
Subject: RE: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 

anyway to view "Hamlin?"...

stats on a web page?  cut & paste?

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Chris Seamans [SMTP:semo@pil.net]
> Sent:	Monday, June 28, 1999 12:14 PM
> To:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject:	Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 3:20 AM
> Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)
> 
> 
> >IMTU, there aren't a whole lotta tramps flying in the developed areas, at
> >least, not before the Rebellion anyways.  Now, they're starting to come
> back,
> >flying interface between the Wilds and the Safes, places where the
> corporados
> >don't *even* wanna be flying.
> 
> 
> Well, it merely sounds like a clash of playing styles (more on that in a
> second).
> 
> >> Usually in the more developed areas of the Imperium. That's what my
> players
> >> seem to like best.
> >
> >Personally, I like running around on the fringes.  Dunno why, but it
> *seems*
> >there's more action out there than around the center of the Imperium.
> 
> 
> I think that there are different kinds of action. In the more developed
> and
> established areas, you're going to have alot more intercorporate "black
> ops," since, to some extent these things are almost legal. Stuff like
> kidnapping, assassination, data and research theft, headhunting,
> defections,
> stuff like that.
> 
> >For me, the challange is to roll something up and *play* it as it falls.
> >More on this in a bit...
> 
> 
> To be honest, I agree. There are certain considerations that Traveller has
> that many other games don't. Andy Slack went into some of these
> considerations years ago in his excellent White Dwarf article "Backdrop of
> Stars," and many of them hold true today.
> 
> What I mean, Keven, is that you, from what I've seen, have an excellent
> grip
> on canon. You can put those random rolls together and create a character
> who
> has depth and who you feel you can play. Hamlin's a great character, but
> it
> also looks like he was blessed with a number of good skills.
> 
> Unfortunately, not all players have the same knowledge of the universe
> going
> in. While I don't doubt you can create an effective merchant character
> with
> bow combat, groundcar and admin skills, not everybody can.
> 
> >Hamlin's straight outta 'Merchant Prince', and I was happy with how he
> ended
> >up.  We worked the Handgun-4 into his bio as him being on the corporate
> >Shooting Team that was trendy in the Deneb area for about 5, 10 years
> (copped
> >a gun & a couple more Gun Cbts as material bennies).  And he has serious
> >problems adjusting his thinking from 20 years of 'right way, wrong way,
> >Sharurshid way', even though no corporation will bother talking to him
> about
> >a job due to Sharurshid's blackballing him when he quit.
> >
> >All in all, a fun guy to hang with.  And a guy who's looking to skipper
> his
> >own boat someday.
> 
> 
> That's exactly my above point! ;)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:22:04 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: I'renes

scharlto@ifsna.com wrote:
> 
> I don't know who was the first person to coin the term "I'rine" for the
> Imperial Marines, but it is going stright into my guidebook for Marine PCs
> in my campaign!  There may even be some obnoxious stuff like calling
> Marines 'Ladies' 'cuz they are all Irenes, or having a unoffical 'Love Song
> for Irene' as the Marine trooper's marching song.
> 
A filker with more time than I have could write one to the tune of "Come
On, Eileen", by Dexy's Midnight Runners....

<<snip>>


- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:23:00 -0700
From: Jay.Alverson@phs.com
Subject: RE: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)

I imagine if you're a *serious* pirate you don't just wanna lay around and
*hope* something comes your way.  WWII taught the importance of convoying
for merchant protection.

You (a megacorp) might want to hire a broker, who makes "delicious deals"
for merchant ships (competition) to jump to a particular system and right
into the jaws of your little operation.  If you're interested in ships, you
can acquire a cargo for considerably less, have the *best looking* ship
transport it...

Then fold it up and move to the next subsector...

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Hypercleats [SMTP:eris@sierratel.com]
> Sent:	Monday, June 28, 1999 1:08 PM
> To:	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject:	Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)
> 
> Chris Seamans wrote:
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
> > To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> > Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 3:20 AM
> > Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...)
> >
> > >IMTU, there aren't a whole lotta tramps flying in the developed areas,
> at
> > >least, not before the Rebellion anyways.  Now, they're starting to come
> > back,
> > >flying interface between the Wilds and the Safes, places where the
> > corporados
> > >don't *even* wanna be flying.
> 
> Sounds like my kind of game! :)
> 
> > >Personally, I like running around on the fringes.  Dunno why, but it
> > *seems*
> > >there's more action out there than around the center of the Imperium.
> >
> > I think that there are different kinds of action. In the more developed
> and
> > established areas, you're going to have alot more intercorporate "black
> > ops," since, to some extent these things are almost legal. Stuff like
> > kidnapping, assassination, data and research theft, headhunting,
> defections,
> > stuff like that.
> 
> No doubt. Query: How almost legal? There seems to be a strong undercurrent
> of
> "shady dealings" in my arbiters campaign(he's very good at GMing), and I
> alway's get nervous with black ops. I am not a strong Imperial
> sympathizer, but
> neither do I want to get on their "bad side". Additionally, the less
> "almost
> legal" actions are, the more cut-throat the participants usually are,
> so...  ;)
> 
> > >For me, the challange is to roll something up and *play* it as it
> falls.
> > >More on this in a bit...
> 
> Amen.
> 
> > To be honest, I agree. There are certain considerations that Traveller
> has
> > that many other games don't. Andy Slack went into some of these
> > considerations years ago in his excellent White Dwarf article "Backdrop
> of
> > Stars," and many of them hold true today.
> >
> > What I mean, Keven, is that you, from what I've seen, have an excellent
> grip
> > on canon. You can put those random rolls together and create a character
> who
> > has depth and who you feel you can play. Hamlin's a great character, but
> it
> > also looks like he was blessed with a number of good skills.
> 
> Very nice skills! ;)
> 
> > Unfortunately, not all players have the same knowledge of the universe
> going
> > in. While I don't doubt you can create an effective merchant character
> with
> > bow combat, groundcar and admin skills, not everybody can.
> 
> Some of the resposibility lies on the arbiter as well. A party can be
> rounded
> out with a non-player character, the campain can focus on what you are
> good at,
> "freebie skills" etc. can be given in moderation (it IS *your* game), or
> secondary characters can be added. The Traveller Universe has the nice
> aspect
> of an enormous backdrop of a variety of tech levels to stage a campain.
> You
> could easily mis-jump and crash-land into nearly any setting, or augment
> low-tech skills with high-tech tools (T15 Compound Bow w/ HUD and HEAP
> Gyro-Shafts (tm) anyone?).
> 
> > >Hamlin's straight outta 'Merchant Prince', and I was happy with how he
> > ended
> > >up.  We worked the Handgun-4 into his bio as him being on the corporate
> > >Shooting Team that was trendy in the Deneb area for about 5, 10 years
> > (copped
> > >a gun & a couple more Gun Cbts as material bennies).
> 
> <western drawl>I said draw, human!</western drawl> ;)
> 
> > And he has serious
> > >problems adjusting his thinking from 20 years of 'right way, wrong way,
> > >Sharurshid way', even though no corporation will bother talking to him
> > about
> > >a job due to Sharurshid's blackballing him when he quit.
> 
> Nice campain texture bits, I love it!
> 
> > >All in all, a fun guy to hang with.  And a guy who's looking to skipper
> his
> > >own boat someday.
> 
> Who isn't?
> 
> BZA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 19:58:38 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

- -----Original Message-----
From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines


>I believe the beauty of a good role player is using what one gets with
>random roles.  But then again, I never accepted players in my game that
>required the best stats and skills (and the only walk-outs I had was when
we
>switched to MT!  Weird huh?  The rules changes were to confusing for
them??)


I believe the beauty of a good roleplayer is to work as one in a larger
group and contribute to the fun and enjoyment of human interaction.

Anything else is just icing. I'm not sure precisely where the concept of
"allowing players to play the sorts of characters they want to play" got
mutated into "giving players the best stats and skills."

>I was an assault troop (QMI -- Mounted Infantry -- a grunt with transport)
>and our vehicle (APC) crew were armour, there was the distinction between
>the two.  They too had to train as infantry.  They were not trained to lose
>their vehicle in combat, but if it happened, they were trained to help us
>grunts defeat the enemy we faced and return to take control of another
>vehicle later.  I believe Australian arnour crews have to spend a period of
>time each year on the ground as grunts also.  Go figure?


<Shrug> You've not added anything new to the debate here. I'm not denying
that Imperial marines are trained to fight without armor. I do think that,
in the majority of cases, their training, skills and experience will not gel
in the same way as those who are expected to always survive without the
assistance of the ultimate single-man weapons platform.

"Training, skills and experience" has been my mantra throughout this entire
discussion. Perhaps I'm unclear on what I mean by those words:

Training covers instruction, study and basic drilling. Natural talent can be
factored in.

Skills cover what a person learns from applied training. This would cover
stuff along the lines of the survival course you mentioned before or
full-scale wargames. The training is honed to a razor sharp point. Again,
people can discover natural talent in the skill-gaining phase as well.

Experience covers everything a person learns when that razor sharp point is
applied in real life. If a situation goes right, the experience gained is
valuable, if the situation goes wrong, the experience gained is priceless.
Once again, natural talent can play a large part in this.

To use a non-military example that everyone can understand: Imagine I'm
taking a college course, say a math course. Training covers the teachers
instruction and sample problems done in class. Skill-acquisition covers
homework and testing. After all, I'm doing problems on my own, without a
safety net. I'm learning how to apply my training in various ways.
Experience covers what happens once I get out in the real world and start
using my training and skills to earn a living.

Experience is the only thing that can't be taught. All things being equal, I
am of the opinion that experience is probably the most important of the
three categories.

As an example, an Imperial marine may be trained in the use of many small
arms. He may even, like modern marines, have be skilled well enough with the
use of the rifle to maintain his post. An imperial marine may be able to
kill someone with a knife, his bare hands, or a popsicle stick. That's
secondary.

That doesn't mean he's got experience. He hasn't held that popsicle stick in
his sweaty hand and driven it into the throat of an enemy.

An Imperial marine's training may very well cover alot of different things.
However, since the skills an Imperial marine needs to survive are tied in
with his vehicle, that's where the bulk of his training is going to fall.

Imperial marines might do very well on survival courses. They might do very
well with ACRs and gauss guns. However, most of the skill-acquisition is
going to be based on the suit. As I've already said: If you'd like to think
of a marine's suit as a piece of equipment that is roughly the same as
tossing on a Kevlar vest, go right ahead. However, that's something that is
completely impossible to rectify in my own mind.

>Well, that's because you see BD as a be all and end all of IM equipment, it
>is equated as a vehicle, where I see it as just another piece of ground
>troop equipment.  You are saying IM's are dedicated to wearing BD in
combat,
>that IS their specialty where I say it is just a piece of equipment they
are
>skilled in using, like not every marine may be skilled in FO or even the
use
>of a VRF-GG, not every marine is skilled in the use of BD.  I see them as a
>troopie, not a pilot or turrethead :^)


Fair enough, and I honestly don't think that we're going to be able to find
middle ground on the issue of "vehicle vs. a suit of armor."

Personally, I think that the very tactics of battle dress use would be quite
different from anything we've seen. I also think that the use of spaceships
and gravitics would galvanize a new theory of combined arms. I think that
this, coupled with the innate technological sophistication and control
considerations of battle dress would specialize the soldier to such a degree
that it could no longer even be considered "infantry warfare."

As an example of what I mean, look at how Heinz Guderian's influential book
"Achtung Panzer" helped to reinvent modern warfare after World War I. Prior
to this, the role of armor was entirely different, sort of like rolling
bunkers with light artillery to support infantry. The role of air power
changed drastically as well.

Then, with each new form of technology, the face of warfare has changed,
sometimes subtly, sometimes drastically. Airmobile infantry, attack
helicopters, cruise missiles, smart bombs, intercontinental ballistic
missiles...

Personally, I find it difficult to imagine that powered armor will be used
in the same capacity as infantry, or that the training, skills, esperience
and tactics will be completely compatible with each other.

>> This creates a rather interesting problem both in GURPS and in reality.
>> There are only so many hours in a day to train. There is only so much a
>> single person can retain. If you'll pardon me for saying so, what you're
>> proposing sounds to me like something out of a comic book.
>>
>
>That means that my APC crews couldn't learn that infantry stuff they did
>along with specialised vehicle training and tactics?  Like I said, I don't
>read comics.  It's sad that there don't seem to be military vehicle crews
on
>this list, I'd like to know if the US or British vehicle crews are as
>incapable of learning multi-skills as suggested?


I think I've made my opinion on this clear several times. It's a matter of
both focus (where the bulk of the training and skill acquisition is aimed)
and experience (how it's applied on the battlefield).

>> >I wouldn't give a soldier a suit if he didn't know everything else.
>>
>> Everything? Does that include classical Vilani literature? ;)
>>
>
>My, my... Now who is taking thisng to extremes?  We were talking about
>combat situations with the smells of burnt bodies, blood, cordite (or
>equivalent... ozone?), the sound of wounded combatants from both sides...
>you know, the general battlefield canvas.


Note the smiley face ;)

However, I wouldn't say that's completely incompatible with literature. Many
fine examples of literature, especially poetry, have come out of the
"battlefield canvas." The British ranks were swelling with fine poets during
the First World War. In fact, it is thought by some that if a good number of
them had survived, a new movement in English literature would have been born
in Britain. However, I digress. That's not entirely relevant to the
discussion at hand.

>> How about a pilot? Does a pilot have to be a field medic, a commando, and
>a
>> computer repairman before he gets his hands on a plane? The Imperium is
>> going to have to draw the line somewhere.
>
>With this anology, where the answer is no, we are saying that an IM cannot
>service his own suit and do reloads, because typically, this is outside the
>realms of a pilot's job discription.  So if you wish to go that way, that
>does seem to limit our marine somewhat as he is as highly skilled in the
use
>of his suit as a pilot is in his aircraft and have been equated to each
>other all through this thread.


Once again, I think it comes down to our differences in the way that we see
powered armor being used in the Third Imperium.

>You seem to assume that there will only be one type of enemy encountered,
>those armed with weapons to take out a BD-equipped trooper.

Well, yes. That would most likely be the quickest way to remove an Imperial
marine from his armor. Otherwise, they're not going to have to much of a
problem.

>I assumed that
>our marines would also assault strongpoints where the heavy weapons would
be
>capable of taking down armour support and BD-equipped marines.

Okay. That seems to be a fair enough assumption as well.

>You are now
>saying that if the marine has his suit disabled and has to leave it behind,
>he is also no match for the supporting enemy troops with ACR's and cloth
>armour.

Yes and no. I am saying that the bulk of his training and skills, and the
*overwhelming majority* of his experience is going to be aimed towards using
his kickass weapons platform.

I am saying, that all things being equal, an Imperial marine climbing out of
disabled battle dress is going to be, pound for pound, less effective than
an infantry soldier. I am saying that in open combat, with both sides being
armed and armored equally, an infantry soldier would be at a distinct
advantage.

Now, on the other hand, I'm not adverse to the concept of elite Imperial
marines. Guys who are both masters of battle dress and non-battle dress
combat. These guys would be on the same level as, say, theNavy Seals or
other hardcore high-end special forces. However, they'd be the exception,
not the rule.

Few people in real life can measure up to the sheer Adonis-like perfection
that these elite groups require. They would not be the adventuring rank and
file.

>I'd mention that historically, when a piece of armour was
>neutralised, those firing upon said armour would usually change target to
>another functioning piece of armour, leaving the crew and supporting ground
>troops to their own supporting ground troops to neutralise,

Fair enough. However:

1.) A high-tech battlefield is likely to be extremely hot. A guy climbing
out of his lobster suit is going to havea damn good chance of being turned
into a puddle by incidental fire.

2.) Imperial marines will *usually* be involved in assault, not defense.
Those defenders dressed in cloth will have the distinct advantage as they
can already have their weapons trained on the poor Impie marine before he
even gets out.

3.) There's alot of time, effort and specialized training that goes into
making an Imperial marine. The enemy does not want that specialist getting
off the battlefield to come back in another suit.

>but you told me
>before that using real life/historical examples was
>incorrect/unfair/unrealistic(?),

Bah... Now I can tell that you're simply trying to bait me, or you haven't
been reading my posts. Either one is not very sporting, Roc. As everyone's
favorite baldheaded evil genius might say: "Throw me a frickin' bone here,
people!"

No. I said that with the real life examples you were using, you were
stacking the deck in your favor picking things that, in my opinion, are the
exception, not the rule. Here are the ones I remember:

WWII American marines filling in for American Infantry: I stated my opinion
clearly on this. To assume that American World War II marines are anything
like Imperial marines is like assuming that the B2 Stealth Bomber fills the
same role as a WWI Gotha bomber. As technologies change, roles of fighting
forces will change, and the names attached to them might no longer apply in
the same way.

To use an example I've already mentioned: The leaders in World War I did not
use their armor pieces in the same way as the Germans did when they went on
their offensive campaign.

The Siege of Tobruk: You picked a special case where backs were to the wall
and tried to apply it across the board.

Australian survival course: You equated a survival course with a combat
situation, which I don't think is a fair comparison.

>so I guess I'll assume that the gunners
>neutralising the BD's will continue to fire upon the man inside the suit
>after the suit itself is destroyed and ignore the other functioning BD's
>attacking...


No. However, it seems like you're starting to put words into my mouth,
something that I don't usually react favorably too.

>I would assume
>that on most battlefields, that when a man is forced to abandon his
>"armour," he is not written off altogether, that he can still contribute to
>the fight as per your "If the combat zone is hot enough to kill a battle
>dress piloting marine, the marine has very little chance of surviving no
>matter how many skills or how much experience he has" statement... Sorry,
>history always gets in my way like that.


It takes a mighty big nutcracker to crack battle dress. Any weapon of
sufficient power to crack battle dress is going to be more than powerful
enough to decimate the poor battle dress pilot who hatches from his cracked
egg like a vulnerable baby bird. Okay, that was flowery and pretentious. I
think I'm having too much fun here ;)

However, it doesn't take a huge, high-tech nutcracker to nail the poor
battle dress pilot who discovers himself suddenly unprotected. A sniper with
a low-tech rifle can ice him. A guy with an even lower tech bow can stick
one or more shafts through him. A machine-gun emplacement can riddle him
with bullets. Shrapnel, stray bullets, the splash from a plasma rifle or the
larger splash from a plasma cannon, all of these things can conspire against
the poor Imperial marine.

But what, there's more! Hell, the majority of worlds are rather unpleasant
to begin with! How long does our intrepid Johnny Rico clone last in a
vacuum? A hostile atmosphere? An insidious atmosphere? A <sigh> Chlorine
based atmosphere?

>> It seems to me that you expect superheroic levels of ability from human
>> beings. To assume that a single man with a sidearm or rifle would be able
>to
>> survive and *win* a combat that took out his battle dress is, well, not
>> particularly realistic.
>>
>
>Hmmmm... An unarmoured man with a single shot weapons killing an armoured
>giants?  I guess you are right, it just doesn't happen (can someone else
>tell him please?)


C'mon, tell me. ;)

My assumption is that you mean David and Goliath. There are real world
examples where the human spirit wins despite opposition by a larger, more
accomplished and formidable foe. I don't doubt this. These are exceptions to
the rule, and I honestly don't think that they should be considered the
standard.


>Well, the point is, if the army has that equipment (BD's) available to
them,
>why bother fielding the marines in the first place?

A very good question. I'd say that the doctrine and tactics of the Impie
Marines are different than that of the Imperial Army.

Impie marines are expected to work closely with the Impie navy. One of their
specialties would be a sort of orbital blitzkrieg. They are dropped in their
capsules to the surface of a planet where they eliminate the enemy's big
guns that would otherwise endanger troop ships and the vessels that would
serve as ortillery. They'd also clear LZs for landing craft.

>Field the army units
>and if some should lose their suits, they are skilled enough to go to
ground
>and still do some damage as they are multi-roled where the marines are not?
>They can diddly bop off to a flank and take out one or two of the enemy
>support crews where possible, perhaps damage some of the enemies equipment
>before going to ground again (or getting micronuked like snipers do?).


Of course, again, you're assuming that the battlefield is not hot, and that
the world is not hostile to human beings. Neither case is likely to be true.

>Thanks, and believe it or not, that still stands... I am just defending my
>statements as I still don't see logic with the proposed "all marines in BD"
>rule.  However, being a GURPS thing, they can have whatever rules they like
>as I don't play GT (I guess I'm a CT loyalist).


Well... I've already commented on that. Loren Wiseman writing for the ol'
JTAS seems to be enough CT credibility for me ;)

>Perhaps.  I don't see these guys as traditional marines if forced to be
>BD-bound.  I always saw marines as a multi-role capable force, in and out
of
>suits, not a vehicular-bound force like turretheads and pilots... they are
>just not the same...


Fair enough. You say tomato and I say...um... that marines are battle dress
pilots ;)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:43:00 -0500
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

I have to get my .02Cr in on this subject.

I feel that less than 50% of the marines will have battledress training.
Not every marine will qualify for battledress training (disqualifiers
include [even if controlled with medication] mild clostrophobia
[anything more would disqualify for the marines], lack of body control
[mussle "ticks", mild sezures, etc.], lack of mental control). The
breakdown of the Imperial Marines will be as such:

Marine Infantry: This is the first unit a marine recruit will see after
bootcamp.  This unit is more a training ground than anything else.  Its
duty in combat is to expand and hold a bridgehead until the army
arrives.  It will take over a bridgehead established by the Drop Troops
and expand it to the size needed by the army.  The young marines entire
goal while assigned to the infantry is to qualify for another unit (if
they wanted this knid of job they would have joined the army).  Most
NCO's in the infantry are instructors.  Infantry are equiped with combat
armor and gauss rifles.  Marine infantry is never seen on recruiting
posters.

Ship's Troops: Must be qualified for battlesdress training (assumed that
training will occur on the ship if not already trained) or naval gunnery
training. Duties include shipboard gaurd duty (Captains cabin, weapons
lockers, ordinance lockers), boarding actions (customs, military
boardings, and repelling boarders), shore patrol when at ports without
naval bases.  Drop Troops are recruited from the ranks of Ship's
Troops.  Equipment is a mix of combat armor and battledress.  Ship's
Troops are not seen on recruiting posters except "on liberty in a new
port".

Technical:  These are the mechanics and technicians that keep the marine
equipment working.  This is not a seperate branch, they have to be as
qualified as the troops in the unit they are assigned as there are no
non-combat MOS's.  They are equiped as the unit they are assigned to.

Diplomatic Corps:  Some times called the "Spit and Polish Corps" as they
spend as much time in thier dress uniforms as in other uniforms.  They
are trained to expect combat to occur when they are without armor and
with little amunition.  Duties include gaurding embacies, nobles,
admirals, and naval bases, also shore patrol.  The best personal
bodygaurds in the Imperium are drawn from the Marine Diplomatic Corps.
Equipment includes extra dress uniforms, diplomatic cloth armor and side
arms, other equipment as required. Commonly seen on recruiting posters.

Armored:  This is the smallest of the marine units (size as Doug
stated). Equipment cloth armor, side arm and vehicle.

Drop Troops:  The elite of the Marine Corps (minimum rank sargent).
Duties include key instalation attack, initial bridgehead, rapid
response.  Equipment; Battledress and Heavy Weapons.  Commonly seen on
recruiting posters.

Equipment overview:
Marine Infantry:
     Armor; Combat armor 100%
     Weapon; Gauss rifles 80%, other weapons 20%
Ship's Troops:
     Armor; Combat armor 50%, Battledress 50%
     Weapon; Gauss rifles 50%, heavy weapons 50%
Technical:
     Armor; as unit assigned
     Weapon; as unit assigned
Diplomatic Corps:
     Armor; Diplomatic cloth 80%, combat armor 20%
     Weapon; side arms and gauss rifles 80%+
Armored:
     Armor; vehicle, cloth armor
     Weapon; side arms
Drop Troops:
     Armor; battlesdress 100%
     Weapon; heavy weapons 100%

equipment will be lighter closer to civilization and heavier towards the
fringes.

Charles

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:50:55 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Trade Routes question

Sophonts,

On Pg 18 of FT, it says "Jumps longer than two parsecs are only permitted
. when a route of at least feeder magnitude can save a jump or more by
using a jump-3 route."

My question to the learned members is; does this entirely preclude a Jump-3
Minor route ?  Many ships travelling "behind the claw" are J3 capable, and
it would make sense to me that to a shipper, 'time is money'.  Ergo, I
would have thought that running a J3 (if possible) would be better than a
circuitous double J2 route.

I've just done the routes fro Pretoria/Deneb and have a J3 Minor Route that
would otherwise follow a J3 Feeder then a J1 Minor to get to the target
world.  I'm working on other Deneb s/sectors and will post them somewhere
if anyone's interested.

Dave

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #785
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 29 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 786



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Marines
Brand Power/Loyalty
Re: My take on the Army and Marines (LONG!)
Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps
Re: I'renes
Re: Alien Life
Violence Immersion
Re Battle Dress
Re: CT Skills
Re: CT Skills
Subject Transitions
RE: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps
Start-ups (was: Re: Armor update)
Re: CT Skills
Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 
Re: CT Skills 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:42:11 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

The Roc said :

>I was an assault troop (QMI -- Mounted Infantry -- a grunt with transport)
>and our vehicle (APC) crew were armour, there was the distinction between
>the two.  They too had to train as infantry.  They were not trained to lose
>their vehicle in combat, but if it happened, they were trained to help us
>grunts defeat the enemy we faced and return to take control of another
>vehicle later.  I believe Australian arnour crews have to spend a period of
>time each year on the ground as grunts also.  Go figure?

Not 1st Armored.

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:42:18 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Brand Power/Loyalty

Sophonts,

Given the fairly generic nature of vehicles, what do people use for
differences between manufacturers or brand names for their manufactured
goods ?  For example, in Australia, we have the co-called 'big-four' family
cars, each with their own foibles, quirks and selling points, but basically
they're a mid-large family car at around $30K.  I would suggest though,
that in Traveller terms, they're all essentially the same vehicle.

What do list-folk do about introducing pros and cons, quirks and features
to their goodies to make them appealing to the buying public (PC's) ?  Or
are people using no-name brand generic products ?

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 18:36:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: My take on the Army and Marines (LONG!)

- --- "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

I will post my disagreements with this. Obviously, you are the
commandant of your own view and I respect that while disagreeing in
part.

> MARINE OPERATIONS
> 
> More than any other service, the Marines are dedicated to the raw
> application of force.  Marines are not trained in the peacekeeping or
> limited operations that the Army excels at.  When the Marines engage
> in combat, their creed is to use the maximum amount force possible to
> overwhelm and destroy the enemy in the minimal amount of time. 
> Marines are infamous for using fusion weapons to destroy an entire 
> building to root out a single sniper.

While I have read your reasoning, I do not agree completely. Maximum 
nessisary force yes. Take out the entire floor, yes. The whole 
building? No.  

> Non-Fleet Marines play a variety of roles in the Imperial defense
> establishment.  Marines are the Emperor's troops, and guard all
> Imperial facilities.  The most visible of these guards are the  
> sophonts assigned to guard Imperial consulates on member worlds.  
> These Marines are selected for their appearance and poise, and serve 
> as a daily reminder of the implied force that the Imperium controls.

With the number of roles they fill, they had best be as good or better
than the general army sophont. It looks really bad when the embassy 
is over-run.

> MARINE TRADITIONS
> 
> The Imperial Marine Force traces it's roots to a detachment of Rule of Man
> Marines stranded on Sylea at the beginning of the Long Night.  The RoM
> Marines were in turn based on the assault troops of the Terran Confederation.  These troops were drawn from several sources on
> Earth, most
> notably organizations such as the United States Marine Corps, the Royal
> Marines, and various airborne and special operations groups.  With such a
> long history, the Marines have developed some unique and fiercely guarded
> traditions.

And with those long traditions, they would be appaled at becoming 
nothing more than the men in the armor. That are Imperial Marines 
and could not stand being less than the best. If they lacked skill 
at fighting without their armor, they would rapidly fix that problem.
 
Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:57:30 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps

- ----------
> From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps
> Date: Monday, 28 June, 1999 8:01 AM
> 
> Not arguing here, just further curiosity about GT rules.  Do, or will, all
> military personnel be lumbered with this CP disadvantage?  I mean, the oft
> mentioned tankers and pilots who lose their particular vehicle?  Artillery
> crew and navy (wet and space) when they lose their specialty equipment?

GURPS lets you design whatever character you want, with any set of skills,
as long as it fits a set point total.  There are also provision (seldom if
ever used in play) for skill atrophy.  You could quite easily say that a
character had been trained in some skill (like battlesuit) but had not used
it in some time and thus had forgotten it and did not have to pay for it. 
If they wanted to relearn it, I'd give them a great headstart, but
otherwise, the forgotten skill has no cost and no game effect.
 
So the short answer is no, military characters won't be burdened with
useless skills, unless they want to keep them at low level for background. 
A GT character will probably have more skills than a CT or MT character, so
tossing a few points into some old skills to reflect previous experience
isn't a stupid thing to do.

Tom S.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 14:38:39 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: I'renes

Black ICE wrote:
> 
> scharlto@ifsna.com wrote:
> >
> > I don't know who was the first person to coin the term "I'rine" for the
> > Imperial Marines, but it is going stright into my guidebook for Marine PCs
> > in my campaign!  There may even be some obnoxious stuff like calling
> > Marines 'Ladies' 'cuz they are all Irenes, or having a unoffical 'Love Song
> > for Irene' as the Marine trooper's marching song.
> >
> A filker with more time than I have could write one to the tune of "Come
> On, Eileen", by Dexy's Midnight Runners....

Or a low-tech sniper with a crunch gun 

"Good Night..." ker-BLAM "Irene, good night..."

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 12:50:02 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Alien Life

Sat, 26 Jun 1999 19:40:35 -0400, "C. Michael (Swordy)"
<swordworlder@clinic.net>
>Finding amino acids is but one tiny part of the problem.  Now find twenty
>specific ones, all left-handed, and assemble them into usable chains to make
>a valuable protein without destroying your building blocks.  Now do it a
>thousand times in the thousand different configurations that will fit
>together perfectly to may one usable cell.  The odds turn out to be greater
>than 20^100 against*.  Not too promising.

It isn't know if out current set of amino acids is the only usuable
set or if you can get by with some subset (getting left handed ones
is easy since they will tend to come in racemic mixtures).  Nor
is it clear how hard it is to come combinations the form enzymatic
molecules and how many enzymes you need to start up a protobiochemistry.

Such calc can be used to help look at the problem but need to be taken
in context.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 23:45:57 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Violence Immersion

>I think that some entertainment would be violent, some entertainment
>wouldn't be. In the Third Imperium there are potential markets for every
>product... somewhere. In fact, violent media might be used in ways we
>haven't imagined yet:
>
>Imagine a world that staurates its population with extremely realistic
>violent imagery... in order to cultivate the message that violence is bad.

Unless they are wired differently than humans, it won't work. Humans are
apparently hard wired to become accustomed to anything which is common in
their environment. Humans are hard wired to adapt. Biophysical studies have
shown that persons exposed to lots of violent imagery grow less and less
affected from a biological standpoint by that same type of imagery with
repeated exposures. The exceptions are in cases where some direct physical
stimulus is applied while the imagery is viewed causing pain or discomfort
of a physical nature. In short, unlesss you are made to be violently ill or
in great pain, the more you watch, the less you'll feel upon seeing it
again.

The same principle applies in the movie industry to special effects of all
kinds... Which is why hollywood MUST keep pushing the envelope, rather than
sticking at a plateau of graphical quality... if you don't keep pushing,
eventually everything becomes "normal"....

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 00:06:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: Re Battle Dress

>Some army units are equipped with it. The army units who are equipped with
>it would likely have similar problems. However, Imperial marines are a
>specialized lot. They strike hard and strike fast from orbit. A requirement
>for this is powered armor. Powered armor is the only weapons platform that
>can be dropped from orbit effectively and multiply the force strength of the
>marines enough to secure the initial beachhead. Powered armor is also the
>best weapons platform for onboard defense of the Imperial Navy's big ships.
>
hardly true. On both counts. Orbital drops can be handled in at least three
methods: Orbital BD OR COMBAT ARMOR drops (specified that combat armor can
be used in drop capsules in several places, don't have books to hand to
cite), Shuttle to HALO Parachute Drops, and shuttle to ground drops.

As far as ship-board, Battle dress is big, bulky, and prevents certain
types of movement, as does combat armor. Additionally, BD INSIDE a ship is
probably not a  good thing... the enhanced strength, excessive mass, and
extremely tough armor make for being able to cause extensive friendly
damage before weapons. Now, on the OUTSIDE, sure, it makes sense.

Besides, Azhanti High Lightning provided canon support for both BD and CES
suited marines aboard a late period imperial cruiser. Striker, MT, and CT
never said all marines are BD trained and equipped, just that the marines
were the primary source of drop troops in BD. Otherwise, all marines would
have had Battle Dress Skill under Mercenary (Bk 4) or MT. Simply put, the
"All marines have BD training" was added in an issue of Traveller Digest
(DGP).

The Imp Marines are obviously NOT the MI of Starship Troopers... they
actually do have shipboard duties (including gun crews, see AHL and
Lightning Class Cruisers). Also, Marines as generated in all editions of
Traveller prior to GT Could and often did wind up with massive combat
skills without being battle dress trained. Likewise, BD is not exclusive to
the Imp Marines... Army, Scout and a couple of others could and did wind up
with the skill under Bks 4,5,6, and MT.

Mind you, IMTU, all marines get BD-0 during basic, and there are large
units using Combat armor, and equal numbers in BD, but even more in CES.
Not counting parade units, units on loan as huscarles, etc. (IMTU, the Duke
of Regina has a regiment of Imp Marines "on loan" as huscarles, in addition
to the 4518th LIR.)

Question to Doug Berry now: Why the change in the ranks titles (established
in canon in CT and MT by the tables in the expanded CGen)?

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 18:20:29 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

Chris Seamans wrote:

> Steve Daniels said:
>
> >> Right.  (assuming Edu<8) They can only get:
> >> Blade CBT, Bribery, Gun CBT, Streetwise, Medical or +1 Str, Dex, or End.
> >> Those are useless for a merchant on a starship.

[snip]


> No. Mr. Daniels was not saying that those skills are useless. They are
> useless for a merchant on a starship. Medical doesn't quite work on the
> drive system when it fails. You can't bribe the navigation computer when you
> need to make a jump and you'll just look like an ass trying to use
> streetwise to navigate through a planetoid belt. ;)

Um.  I was being sarcastic.

They may in fact be useful to make  starship go.
But they are not useless to anyone who might be _on_ a starship,
since that will inevitably take the character somewhere else.

- --
Bloo
Support Guru and Registrar
Roger Wilco
http://www.rogerwilco.com/

NOTE: Please include all previous mail in responses.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:53:45 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

>> Medical doesn't quite work on the
>> drive system when it fails.
>
>That's the Engineer's job.


How does said engineer get his training? Certainly not as a young merchant.


>> You can't bribe the navigation computer when you
>> need to make a jump
>
>Navigator's job.


How does said navigator get his training? Certainly not as a young merchant.


>> and you'll just look like an ass trying to use
>> streetwise to navigate through a planetoid belt. ;)
>
>Pilot's job.


How does said pilot get his training? Certainly not as a young merchant.


>We do fully crew our starships, don't we?


Apparently only with old merchant crews (or with young naval crews). I
guess merchants have to "earn" the right to be a spacer. Not unlike how our
modern armor crews have to "earn" the right to be tankers ... oops, wrong
thread! ;-P

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:30:57 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Subject Transitions

"From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: How common is life (was: Re: Copyright information)"

	Only on the TML could a discussion of Copyright move
	to the vulgarity of life. Gotta love it.

Sorry about the bandwidth, now back to your string...

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:38:06 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

Jay Alverson writes:
<snipped>
"> Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:25:27, "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> 
> >>ObTrav:  Traveller military personnel (at least those generated with
> >>Mercenary or High Guard) seem to be _much_ more competent in combat than
> >>either redshirts or Stormtroopers."

	Are you kidding? How many Imperial Marines have the 
	pin-point accuracy required to fire that many shots in that
	little space and still not hit anyone?!

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:27:50 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

Michael Deck writes (quoting Jack Cohen):
<snipped>
"Finding another planet with our kind of dinosaurs or people 
is more unlikely than finding a remote Pacific island on 
which the natives speak perfect German or cockney rhyming slang."

	This may be so, but it is also possible that the dinosaur
	form (or ours) is easily 'converged' at through other 
	evolutionary trajectories. I agree with his general point 
	here, but I would avoid making such specific cases.

<snipped>
"And, to answer your next question: yes, I do think that 
intelligence [Wishful thinking. IMHO: intelligence doesn
- - --0__=H38CYakau9NqcUQ5V72H0ntDq6CW7OAUQuoKxevEEuCcY9wkElFePrsi
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: 
inline Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

?t equate to tech. society], though perhaps not self-awareness, 
is one of the universal so=lutions.

	I think that he is a little unclear here on what he means
	by 'Intelligence.' The following text implies that he
	just means complex nervous systems with complex behaviour.

	Sorry, I left that extra format stuff in to let the sender 
	know what evil he has inflicted on me ;)

<snipped>
"Our hands and feet have the common 'pentadactyl' pattern, 
variations of which are characteristic of all the descendants of
Eusthenopteron but of no other organisms on this planet [Objection, 
your honor! Somewhere in Nature I seem to remember seeing some 
paper on 6, 7, & 14 digit amphibians from the Carboniferous era!]."

	Quite so. To be fair, though, the number of digits did
	settle down to 5 and then seems to have been stuck there.

<snipped>
"The development of vertebrate gonads and their ducts is 
inextricably mixed up with the kidneys and urinary ducts, and 
usually with the cloaca too. So our 'instinctive' reproductive 
behaviour has all kinds of parasitological hang-ups. It could have 
been anticipated that an intelligent vertebrate social species 
would find much of its social excitement in sexual guilts [What 
the hell?! I think this comes under the category of "brain fart"].

	No argument, that sounds like frontal flatulance to me. I
	worry about this man's mental health.

<snipped>
"like Star Trek's Mr Spock - whose evolutionary convergence is so 
close to us that hybrids can be made (when we cannot even breed 
with our brothers and sisters the reptiles and fishes, or a 
cousin like the octopus)."

	Mind you, with Trek Tech we might be able to produce human-
	octopus hybrids. The question is, would we want to? There
	might be somebody out there who would try.

<snipped>
"Hal Clement's famous story, which he wrote in the 1950s, called 
Mission of Gravity [I?d like to read this, has anyone else?]"

	Yup. Not excellent, but not a total write-off (IIRC). I
	did like the way the aliens were developed, though they
	suffered from the 'super-organism' problem (again, IIRC).

<snipped>

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:26:14
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines and Gurps

At 05:24 PM 6/28/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>>screw that, shoot the radioman first, then whoever looks like he's
competent.
>
>The modern version is `shoot the one waving his arms around first.'

Nope, *always* kill the guy who can talk to the outside world first.  Once
you've dealt with the problems of artillery fire, air support, and
reinforcements, then look for the idiot who wants to be a hero.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:11:35
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Start-ups (was: Re: Armor update)

At 10:03 AM 6/28/99 -0700, Bruce wrote:

>(my windows startup sound incidentally.  My shut down is Holly shouting:
>"Abandon Ship Abandon Ship! Oh damn, the sirens gone! Awooga Awooga
>abandon ship!" Rather approproate for this system.)

Kirsten has installed software that shuffles through wallpaper and start-up
wavs randomly.  This morning I got "This is what happens when demented
children play with powerful toys" over the Gridlore Technologies logo.

The closing wav is Daffy Duck saying: "There.  Now you'll never have to
look at those dirty Windows anymore."

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 15:19:33
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

At 03:27 PM 6/28/99 -0400, you wrote:

>If you would have deigned to try to understand my original point, perhaps
>you wouldn't have needed to resort to base sarcasm. It is possible to roll
>up a character that doesn't have a single ship-based skill. Hence, it is
>quite difficult for him to be part of that fully crewed starship that you
>allude to... which takes us back to square one, there'd be little reason for
>him to be on the free trader in the first place, except to use his
>specialized abilities when they're called for, and that means that in the
>Third Imperium your average free trader must be packed like a Tokyo subway.

Captain: "Well, looks we we're going to need to drive a steam locomotive,
decipher Old High Vilani and shoot crossbows while bribing clerks in this
adventure."

1st Officer: "Right, I'll go defrost Fitz and Duncan, and stick the
Engineering staff in the Cold Sleep Berths."
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:21:40 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 

> Chris Seamans wrote:
> > >Because the megacorps are going to be trying to corner the markets on the
> > >civilised worlds.  I'm not saying *every* jerkwater planet's gonna make you
> > a
> > >killing, just that it's more likely that an independent will do better on
> > one
> > >than trying to cut out a megacorp on a high pop TL15 planet.  They just
> > won't
> > >have the resources to compete.
> 
> This is very true, however a freelance merchant can do best IMHO if he or she
> skirts the edge between "backwater" and developed systems. Megacorps many times
> ditch fractions of their cargo that have damaged cases or don't round out to
> full cargo holds. And one never wants to be too far from a port able to make
> repairs/modifications to your ship.

That's where the consistent money is, anyways.  <grin>
 
> >
> > Fair enough, not too far from my own idea of trade. Generally, in my
> > developed areas, tramps carry the stuff the megacorps don't want to carry.
> > In other words, the kind of stuff that makes for good adventures and
> > scenarios.
> >
> > Before: "What's that? You need to get an adult Narinvan Mantis from Cameron
> > to Wendell? Sure, we can do that!"
> >
> > After: "That jerk never told us that its diamond-hard teeth could rend
> > through the standard transport cage. <sigh> Oh well, hopefully I can find
> > another engineer at Wendell Down."
> 
> Now this is real free-trading, screw that fifty ton shipment of wood. Has any
> body created a list of unusual cargoes? If I find mine, I'll post it.

I oughta come up with one.  <grin>
 
> > >Where have you been adventuring???
> >
> > Usually in the more developed areas of the Imperium. That's what my players
> > seem to like best.
> 
> Probably too scared of piracy in unpatrolled space. Pirates always make me
> nervous.

Pirates only hang out where they're gonna make money.

> > Fortunately, I've been blessed with a non-munchkin gaming group. Apparently,
> > other folks have problems with this sort of player, and fortunately, I've
> > never had to worry about this.
> 
> Lucky little Skin-Monkey. I am usually surrounded by "munchkins".

Remind me to tell you about a character submitted to my PBEM sometime.  
Downright scarey.  This guy wanted to come into the game as a fleet commander 
of a hostile government, *complete* with 200KT ship, and join the rest of the 
party.  Skills out the ass, full tilt blue blood.  Can you say 'over the top'?
 
> > For the record, we used the T4 rules the last time I ran a campaign, and we
> > combined the two methods of character creation. T4 gives one skill per year
> > and there are 4 years per term. The tables are set up so 1D decides the
> > skill category and 1D decides the skill. Year 1: Roll for each. Year 2: Roll
> > for category, pick skill. Year 3: Pick category, roll for skill. Year 4:
> > Pick category and pick skill.
> 
> Very much like my arbiters choice of mixing High Guard with the basic CT
> system, although you will note that this creates very skilled characters. I am
> thinking of using this system for a home-rules campaign, but I think I will
> convert skill resolution to something more like White Wolf's Storyteller
> system. That should reduce the grainy nature of CT skill ratings.

CT & the *other LBBs make definitely playable characters.  And occaisionally, 
I haul out my old copy of 'Scouts and Assassins' (2nd edition, *NOT* for 
sale!!) for specials like one NPC in my PBEM.  <grin>
 
> > I *like* random character generation systems. I'm a diehard for them. I just
> > never got along well with the CT / "Advanced" CT / MT systems. For some
> > reason, T4 seemed to work very well, but it might have been the
> > "combination" method that I came up with.
> 
> Never played any Traveller except CT, but I have to agree on liking random
> character generation. The approach CT takes makes it like playing a whole other
> game. I like generating characters even more than playing actually.

I like *playing*.  Reffing is ok.  Just constant rolling of characters can 
get boring.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:55:00 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills 

> >> No. Mr. Daniels was not saying that those skills are useless. They are
> >> useless for a merchant on a starship.
> >
> >Not.
> 
> 
> <Must bite my tongue... Must bite my tongue...>
> 
> ARGH!
> 
> 1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10... Okay, I'm better now. Let's take
> things from the top.
> 
> >That's the Engineer's job.
> 
> >
> >Navigator's job.
> >
> >Pilot's job.
> 
> 
> Thnk you very much for informing me that fixing the drive when it breaks is
> the engineer's job, navigating the ship from star to star is the navigator's
> job, and piloting the ship is the pilot's job. I never would have figured
> that out.
> 
> >We do fully crew our starships, don't we?
> 
> 
> If you would have deigned to try to understand my original point, perhaps
> you wouldn't have needed to resort to base sarcasm. It is possible to roll
> up a character that doesn't have a single ship-based skill. Hence, it is
> quite difficult for him to be part of that fully crewed starship that you
> allude to... which takes us back to square one, there'd be little reason for
> him to be on the free trader in the first place, except to use his
> specialized abilities when they're called for, and that means that in the
> Third Imperium your average free trader must be packed like a Tokyo subway.

OK, your 'ship based' skills keep your boat flying.  Your *non* ship-based 
skills (weapons, Broker, Trader, Admin, Streetwise, etc) are what make and 
protect your money on the ground.  And IIRC, *ANYBODY* could be a steward on 
a ship, doesn't take Steward skill, they just screw up people's dinner orders 
a lot & the ship's laundry breaks down on them.  A *lot*.

Would I pay for a 'utility infielder' without hard ship skills (Pilot, Nav, 
Engineering, Gunnery)?  Depending on his skills, I might.  Give him Wheeled & 
Grav Vehicle, some decent Admin (2+), and I'd hire him on the spot to be my 
loadmaster & purser in flight.  He'd also be the guy I'd send to town to 
unload my speculative cargo and find the next load to slick out and make a 
cred or 3 on.  Add a Handgun level, and he'd double as a security officer 
during flight, keep the biofreight from gettin too awful out of hand.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #786
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 29 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 787



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: paraplegia 
Re: CT Skills
Garoo
Re: FTL == time travel
Re: I'renes
RE: Armor update
Re: 3dmapping
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: We're not ALL GT out here (was Re: Battle Dress...)
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Battle Dress
The Bomb
Re: Imperial Marines

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:33:55 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: paraplegia 

> At 09:36 AM 6/28/99 +0000, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> >At 12:16 PM 6/28/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >
> >There was one paraplegic NPC in Trail of the Sky Raiders.  I imagine that
> >most forms of nerve damage will be repairable, but in some cases there will
> >be no way to restore function in the lower body.
> 
> Book 8, Robots says that at TL14 direct computer implants into the brain
> are possible, though 3I basically keeps these for curing neurological
> disorders, not for IQ enhancement. I imagine this would include running an
> ethernet cable between T9 and T7, skipping that damaged batch of nerves at
> T8 altogether...

Great idea, actually.

> Then again, Christopher Reeves thinks we will have spinal cord injury cures
> in the next few years.

Speaking as one of the guys who helped raise funding for spinal cord injury 
research for 5 years, I can safely say that some of the ideas coming out of 
the PVA labs these days are pretty wild.  That 'ethernet' idea already came 
up a couple years ago, spurred on by developements in the process of growing 
neurons in silicon chips.  <grin>  Main problems with it at present, as far 
as replacing a chunk of spinal cord goes, anyways, is being able to culture 
enough cloned nerve cells to 'dope' the chips.  Last I heard of the 
technology, they were about 10% of the way to getting enough nerve density on 
the chips.  Second hardest problem, and the one they expected to solve within 
5-10 years was the software package needed by the computer that would handle 
the signal switching; it needed to be able to 'learn' which nerve cells had 
grown back in, store that information, and find other pairs to relink.  Best 
WAG on then-current state of the art was, it'd take up to 5 years to retrain 
the computer to take up 10% of the spinal cord's functions.
 
> >Army ants..  TL-8 medicine sucks.
> 
> Must agree wholeheartedly!

I can't wait for TL11 med tech.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 99 15:33:51 -0500
From: "Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

On 06/28/99 at 03:27 PM,  "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> said:

>Thnk you very much for informing me that fixing the drive when it
>breaks is the engineer's job, navigating the ship from star to star
>is the navigator's job, and piloting the ship is the pilot's job. I
>never would have figured that out.

Hee! Hee! Good one!

>>We do fully crew our starships, don't we?

That's a good one too! You two are real cards! ;->

Keep in mind, both of you, that in CT a party *can* fly a ship with
a crew that doesn't have the Pilot, Engineering, or Navigation
skills.  Sure, you *want* skilled people, but computer programs can
be substituted for some of these tasks and anyone can try almost
anything with appropriate -DM's.  It makes it tougher to perform
risky tasks, but the routine things are still pretty routine.

To answer Chris' point, *if* I had people with ship skills I'd
certainly put them in those positions.  The PC in question could
still do productive work, though, as Steward, Medic, Gunner (you
hope you never actually *need* him, but regs require one to be
aboard), Cargohandler, and a swing-man to relieve the more skilled
PC's on the ship.  He could *train* for a skilled position and he
would have uses on-planet (where most adventures take place).  No,
you wouldn't want *all* your PC's to be like this guy, but it's
unlikely they all would be.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
"Eris Reddoch" <eris@pcola.gulf.net>    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:57:08 -0400
From: "Paul Schirf" <pc@perkworks.com>
Subject: Garoo

After re-reading the BtC reference to the Garoo it
becomes clear that they should be removed from
the minor races section and declared to be Solomani.
Garoo is tiny, with no water and no atmosphere!
There is no real chance that they're a minor human
race.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 19:49:22 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel

At 03:11 PM 6/28/99 -0500, Steven Bonneville wrote:
>Rob Brady wrote:
>> but once again the only way to violate causality in the
>> Traveller universe is jump from a system that has a velocity
>> of 0, to a system that has a velocity of near C (.82C is what
>
>Let's try that again, but this time we'll spend the three hours at Remulak
>accelerating to 600 km/s (0.002 c) relative to Earth with our 6G drive. 
>Elapsed trip time as measured at Earth is then
>
>  T == 20(2/1020 - 0.002) + 0.000342 == -0.000442 year, or -3.87 hours.
>
>...so, the ship ends up at Earth almost four hours *before* it left!

Thanks a lot Steve! I have been hoping that someone with a better grasp
than myself would come along and confirm or deny. I didn't realize that 
such a small amount of acceleration would be needed though.

You seem to confirm my uninformed opinion of this though - if the week 
that a jump takes is measured in _system_ time, there isn't much you
can do to time travel, but if the week is measured in _ship_ time,
you can break it a lot easier than I thought!

- -- 
I could not say I believe. I know! I have had the experience of being gripped
by something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God.
							-- Carl Jung
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 18:27:42 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: I'renes

scharlto@ifsna.com wrote:

> I don't know who was the first person to coin the term "I'rine" for the
> Imperial Marines, but it is going stright into my guidebook for Marine PCs
> in my campaign!  There may even be some obnoxious stuff like calling
> Marines 'Ladies' 'cuz they are all Irenes, or having a unoffical 'Love Song
> for Irene' as the Marine trooper's marching song.
>

Well, its not that original, but I promise I didn't steal it from anywhere
else.
A couple of years ago, I was speculating on military branch common
insults/nicknames.  "I'rine" for "Imperial maRINE" was a natural since
it sounds just like "GI'rine" (G.I. maRINE), a term I've heard once or
twice for USMC.

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 18:27:03 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Armor update

Whoops!!  Beer in the keyboard!!!!!

ROFLMAOM!!!!!!!!!

Jesse





> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Bruce
> Johnson
> Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 10:03 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Re: Armor update
> 
> 
> Better that than a groinal eggbeater attachment, though the vaccum
> attachmentalways seemed rather twisted to me.
> 
> "Engage Panic Circuits...Panic Circuits Engaged...Yiiihiiiii!"
> 
> Kryten
> 
> (my windows startup sound incidentally.  My shut down is Holly shouting:
> "Abandon Ship Abandon Ship! Oh damn, the sirens gone! Awooga Awooga
> abandon ship!" Rather approproate for this system.)
> 
> Tascelt@aol.com wrote:
> > 
> > But jesse...I saw your design plans, I really think the groinal 
> laser in your
> > suit is too much...paging Dr Freud ya know.     ;-)
> > 
> > TAS
> 
> -- 
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:44:18 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: 3dmapping

WOW!
Can you tell me how to take three points on a grid and translate it into bearing
and mark?

"William F. Hostman" wrote:

> To find distance from a to be with 3d coordinates:
>
> D=([(Xa-Xb)^2]+[(Ya-Yb)^2]+[(Za-Zb)^2])^.5
>
> But, if you really want it, I can bang out an ugly text-interface Mac
> Application in a few hours, sometime next week (private email only,
> please.. I'll be gone all weekend). Or, if you have excell, layout your top
> 4 rows and left 4 collums with the name and coordinates, and in e5, input
> the following formula:
>         =sqrt((($b5-e$2)^2)+(($c5-e$3)^2)+(($d5-e$4)^2))
> This assumes row 1 and Collumn A are names
> 2 and b are X coords
> 3 and C are Y
> 4 and D are Z.
> You can fill down and right; this formula is specifically keyed for filling
> (that's what all the dollar signs are for). In lotus, it is very similar
> (altho I haven't touched lotus in years).
>
> William F. Hostman
> Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
> ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis      ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
> IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
> as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
> "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

- --
- ----------------------------------------------------------------
Don't YOU carry duct tape everywhere you go?


          Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:20:49 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

- -----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 12:14 PM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines


>So it would appear that police actions and peace-keeping *are* missions for
>the Imperial Marines. However, the article also says:


Yes, however, are they to be considered police actions and peace-keeping as
we know them today? I haven't taken a look at the Imperial rules of war
recently, so I may be a little off base.

The line I'm really interested in is "enforcing the Imperial rules of war."
I seem to recall that most of the Imperial rules of war the Marines might be
called in to enforce is the use of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons.
In other words, weapons of mass destruction. Somehow I don't think the
marines are going to go deal with this with kevlar vests, assault rifles and
blue helmets with a big white Imperial starburst on them ;)

The same thing with peace-keeping. Forces. Is it peace-keeping in the modern
sense or a sort of efficient Imperial peace-keeping.

Do the marines get down on the ground in white grav-APCs and blue combat
armor with big, white Imperial Starbursts emblazoned on their heads and
wedge themselves between combatants to keep the peace? Or do they say:
"Start blowing each other up again, and we send the marines down with a
six-pack of whoopass."

It's a tough question. Imperial forces answer to the emperor. The emperor
only has to worry if the moot strongly disagrees with him... I think that,
especially with the Vilani mindset, peace-keeping will be of the second
sort, not the first. It's the most efficient use of materials and training,
both of which are expensive.

>So Doug is quite correct in insisting that all Marines be battle dress
>troopers. I suppose the slogan becomes "Every Marine a Trooper." I'll have
>to think about what implications this has for operations less than
>full-blown combat.


I would tend to think that whenever the Imperial Marines are used, the
situation heats up to full-blown combat if it hasn't already.


Chris "Cap'n Sparky" Seamans ( semo@pil.net )
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-=
Visit the Repository! Imperial and Vilani culture.
TravClassifieds: Find a player or GM in your area.
Submissions welcome. http://www.pil.net/~semo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:51:26 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: We're not ALL GT out here (was Re: Battle Dress...)

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 5:35 AM
Subject: We're not ALL GT out here (was Re: Battle Dress...)


> On 06/28/99 at 09:25 PM,  "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au> said:
>
> >> The type of action the I'rine will see in Book 4 Chargen:
> >> Raid (2/11)
> >> Counter Insurgency (2/11)
> >> Police Action (2/11)
> >> Ships Troops (2/11)
> >> Inernal Security (1/11)
> >> Garrison (1/11)
> >> Training (1/11)
>
> >This is where I have made my biggest mistake, looking at the
> >Traveller Universe from a CT slant and past real history.  BD it
> >seems is going to go from a highly prised, rare skill to a shoved
> >down every marine player's throat in GT.
>
> >I shall try and think of it in GT terms from now on (a system of
> >traveller I don't care to play, but that is actually beside the
> >point).
>
> Roc, you sound bitter.  Don't be.  There are still a lot of us out
> here that aren't completely bought into GT's way of doing things.
> There is a lot of good material in the GT books, but everyone can
> pick and choose the parts they want to use and adapt to their games.
> If every Marine is a BD pilot that won't be a part I use, and that's
> okay with me.  I'm used to going my own way, it's part of being a
> heretic, you know.
>
> Now, *you* can be a heretic, too!  I promise it only hurts for a bit and
> then you don't feel a thing.  ;->
>
> Eris
>

Heheheheheh...

Not so much bitter, I just realised I was thinking from another point of
view.  I do use other game products as resources and  have even used GURPS
for fantasy, just never played the rules or any of their worlds/backgrounds,
just adapted what I needed.

I also didn't play every single Traveller rule as "gospel" either, took my
slant on various things also.  I really don't mind what rules are made
GT-canon, but something's CT-canon work well for game plots which I like
(handwaves or no, they do assist in making plots work), like marines not
being forced into BD all of the time.

But as established, it is CT-canon that IM's were issued BD, but nothing
mentions they have to be fielded all the time with it, so I'm happy :^)

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:02:54 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 4:46 AM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...


> -----Original Message-----
> From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
> Date: Monday, June 28, 1999 7:50 AM
> Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...
>
>
> >Well, as I now see it Matt, GURPS is comic book heavy on things like BD,
> and
> >in a sense, it is "de facto canon."
>
> I'll call your bluff. Seeing as you take great pains to point out that you
> don't read comic books, what exactly is "comic book heavy" about GURPS
> Traveller Battle Dress?
>

Well, like my son used to read GI-Joe, how they always had the biggest and
badest stuff at their disposal, sounds very similar.  Like the current
generation of comics he likes to read, where everything is available and
almost common to the characters.  You know, that sort of thing.

> >If there is still a T-5 system in
> >production, then surely it must be what you would call "Traveller canon,"
> as
> >I assume (and again I may be wrong) it is based on the established
> Traveller
> >history the older Traveller players started off with.
>
>
> My own canon line is something like this:
>
> Marc Miller is way at the top of the period. He is the creator of
Traveller
> and the Third Imperium setting.
>
> Loren Wiseman runs a close second. He worked closely with Marc, and he was
a
> strong influence on the Traveller universe.
>
> Official GDW Classic Traveller materials are next on the list, including
> JTAS.
>
> Official GDW MegaTraveller and TNE materials are next.
>
> DGP is next. They are spoken of highly, but they never seemed to make it
to
> my area. I've never actually seen a DGP product...
>
> I find it vaguely insulting that you are attempting to invoke the grognard
> rule here. By the time you read this, you will most likely have seen
> Christopher Thrash's post concerning Loren Wiseman's JTAS article on the
> subject of Imperial marines. Specifically, I call your attention to the
> statement "All marines are equipped with battle dress, and are armed with
> FGMP-14s."
>

Yes I did, and I also stated that because you are issued with something does
not mean you always use it.  I don't see an IM in a pair of issued jocks,
singlet, dress uniform under fatigues under urban cam under desert cam under
jungle cam under his BD.  Mission specifics tend to state what a troopie
takes into the field.  If a mission specific says don't take BD, then I'm
sure the marine won't take BD?  What's hard to work out about that?  I was
issued a rifle but never had to carry it about all the time.  Sometimes I
even had to carry a GPMG or a SMG instead, even though my rifle was
officially issued to me, it was on occassion exchanged for other weapons.

Now from your military experience, were you lumped with only one piece of
equipment all the time or did you to find you had to swap?  Or is the
Australian army the only one that does this?

> Obviously, anybody can play Traveller in any of its incarnations as they
> would like. However, it's not very sporting to try to imply that your own
TU
> is "canon" because you think that you might have been playing longer.
>

I don't think my traveller universe is canon, I am saying that CT is, oh, I
don't know... more canon than GT?  I did bow to the CT canon about the
maines in the JTAS article, but I'm also saying that just because you are
issued a piece of equipment, doesn't mean you are compled by every situation
to use it.  But again, I draw from history/real life.  BD is kit, you don't
have dress BD (but then again you might), you don't have KP-BD or mess-BD...
you have it, but the situation does not demand you use it.  Certain actions
are like that.

> >Therefore, in GT, you have every IM in BD with micronukes, while in CT,
> IM's
> >have to work to earn their BD-skill, let alone a suit of BD.  This suits
me
> >fine if that's the way it is meant to be.  GT IM's = vehicle (suit) crew
> >(suiters perhaps?), while CT IM's = multi-role, ground fighting forces.
>
>
> If you'll pardon my asking, can you please find me a Classic Traveller
canon
> reference that says that Imperial Marines have to "work to earn their
> BD-skill, let alone a suit of BD."
>

That's the part where when you roll your character, he still performs raids,
CI's, PA's, etc., yet doesn't seem to roll a single BD skill or even a
vacc-suit skill... Not all marines get the skill.  In my opinion, it is not
a gimme as it is going to be in GT, thus you have to work to earn the
skill... don't work hard enough and you don't get the skill (it's like an
abstract interpretation of an abstract rule if you will, like puting in
words other than "unlucky enough not to roll it").

> This is not a personal attack on you, but you did invoke almighty canon,
and
> a level of "grognard empathy" with the universe of the Third Imperium. I'm
> only asking you to back up your bold statements. ;)
>
> Wow. I'll have to mark this date on my calendar! The first time I've ever
> argued *in favor of canon!* ;)
>

I am not saying that if a marine had the chance to don BD for a combat
situation, he wouldn't, one always equips oneself to the highest standard
when one has a choice.  What I am trying to say is, that a marine would
probably be put into certain combat situations where he was not permitted to
use his issued BD.  I see the IM's as a flexible arm of the military able to
perform to a high standard regardless of what situation and equipment is
present.  I do not see a marine as being less capable than an infantry grunt
out of his suit.

Marines by (any canon) tradition I imagine, are more proud and capable than
a standard infantryman.  No that of course is just my take on it remember.
Pilots are considered elite in their own right, and you are relegating
marines to the same status as a pilot.  A pilot is still a fighting man, but
not a "fighting man" if you know what I mean.  Your take is making a marine
a pilot type fighting man, not a blood and guts, in amongst the thick of it,
smell the enemy's urine as he dies kind of fighting man that I thought most
players imaged an IM to be... he is now a pilot of a suit.  Sure, he's still
in the think of it, but take away his suit and he has little training to
survive on a battle field.

What I do agree with is, that a hit bad enough to "take out" a suit of BD
must surely have an effect on the wearer due to his proximity to the suit
(how much room is in a suit anyway?), so I guess the wearer would get hurt
when the suit goes down... whether that fact causes CP if the trooper
survives is pertinent.  However, the loss of a suit on the battlefield could
also be the simple putting out of action of the BD by a near miss ("Damn!
Systems just went down... I'm a sitting gbud here!  I'm bailing!!), where
the wearer ejects from the suit and where capable, is still a fit and
fighting ground trooper acting in no fashion different from a regular
infantry man.

Obviously, it's okay by me and probably everyone else, if your marine is a
pilot-type fighting man, but I don't think it should be forced upon every
other player by a resource book that they have to have pilot-type fighting
men too.  If this is not the case (that the resource book is not forcing all
IM's into suits for ALL actions), then I hope it will reflect the fact
somewhere in the text that some actions do not require them to be marine
pilots of suits, by suits not being required in all combat situations.

I have taken up far to much bandwidth and to much of your time with this
issue.  I am sorry for that, but I see indications that the majority of
posters do not want to see IM's BD-bound.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:57:54 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines


> Sometimes it is helpful to go back to the source material:
>
> >From "Imperial Marine Task Force Organization", by Loren Wiseman,
JTAS#12,
> pp. 42-45:
>
> "The marines serve several functions. They provide a hard-hitting, rapidly
> deployable strike force for offensive and defensive military operations.
> They guard vital installations for the navy and other branches of the
> Imperial government. They serve as an interstellar police force in many
> places along the frontier, keeping the peace and enforcing the Imperial
> rules of war. Because of this last function, they are known in mercenary
> parlance as "the cops."
>
> So it would appear that police actions and peace-keeping *are* missions for
> the Imperial Marines. However, the article also says:
>
> "All marine line troops are jump trained, and are issued jump capsules if
> the mission warrants."
>
> "Line marine units are equipped to tech level 15 standards. Marines used as
> ship's troops usually lack vehicles, and are armed with hand-carried
> weapons only. All marines are equipped with battle dress, and are armed
> with FGMP-14s. Unlike other units, even administrative and logistical (but
> not medical) personnel are equipped in this fashion, as all but medical
> personnel in a marine unit are expected to be able to fight."
>

Thanks Chris, I certainly won't argue with that, but I do have to mention
that even though a troopie is issued with a piece of equipment, they don't
always use that equipment everytime due to mission directives.  I was issued
an SLR, but often found myself lumped with an M60 or an F1.  I still
personally see BD as another suit, like jungle greens/cam, dress uniform,
etc. which they are issued with, they wear them on respective occassions and
not all combat actions would require the expense of wearing BD?

> So Doug is quite correct in insisting that all Marines be battle dress
> troopers. I suppose the slogan becomes "Every Marine a Trooper." I'll have
> to think about what implications this has for operations less than
> full-blown combat.
>

It paints a rather amusing picture of IM catering Corp personnel making
brekkie or peeling spuds in a field kitchen in full BD!  Not to mention
admin just behind the lines... computer keyboards must have 3" square keys!
You try typing with motorcycle gauntlets on!!  I imagined field computers to
be a little smaller, not a metre or so larger  :^)  Heheheheh.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:30:59 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@hartwick.edu>
To: 'TML' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 12:44 AM
Subject: re: Battle Dress


>
> Wasn't a high enough level of Vac Suit skill (2? 3?) originally considered
> sufficient for using battle dress? That would be along the lines that
> "Vac Suit" was a generic skill with protective gear, and that Battle Dress
> is an armored form of an advanced hostile environment suit - Battle Dress
> skill would be the result of an advanced and specialized training course
> focused on the capabilities of BD.
>
> Thus a crack Vac Suit user might be good with HUD's, backup systems,
> user-friendly sensors and even Exoskeleton-assists, but wouldn't be very
adept with things like HUD-linked targeting computers or BD repair.
> A character with Battle Dress skill - a much rarer animal - would have
> most or all of the Vac Suit skill knowledge, would know how to maintain
> BD, might know some unusual tricks for getting more out of BD, and
> might even know useful things about wrecking other people's BD.
>
> Of course, a skill with the FGMP's would probably cover the targeting
computer for the Vac Suit guy.
>
> I may have Vac Suit as BD skill confused in my memory - my CT books
> are not at the desk I'm working from now.
>
> Walt Smith
>

I recall something along these lines too, that a high enough vacc-suit skill
allowed you to use any environmental suit, including BD at a lower
standard(?),  I don't recall the reverse being the effect though?  If BD was
a "super vacc-suit" I'd imagine you could automatically posses vacc-suit
skill, but it never worked that way from the rules I remember?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:25:43 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: The Bomb

- ----- Original Message -----
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Monday, June 28, 1999 11:47 PM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...


> >As the history old books say, it was to save the lives of all the GI's
that
> >would have to fight for the main islands, but the new books say that the
> >American commanders knew the Japanese were about to capitulate, but did
not
> >tell Truman... the military simply wanted a live test bed for the two
> >designs while they could use it against the monster that was Japan, the
> >baby-eating rapists that they were (as they were seen at the time
anyway).
>
> This sounds to me like politically-correct historical revisionism...
> The politically-correct of today are so horrified by the idea of the
> use of atomic weapons that they gloss over the reasons for their use
> in 1945: there was a war on. I am appalled by the peaceniks who every
> August 8 stage a protest shouting "No more Hiroshimas" -- I'll agree
> to that so long as they agree to the idea of "No more Pearl Harbors".
> (The ironic part of all this: I'm a Canadian.)
>
>

Well, I'm an Aussie who also had family fight against the Japanese.  I don't
think this is so much "revisionism" as more a fact that documents actually
came to light suggesting the military planners kept Truman in the dark (I
can't think for some reason... to lazy to get the books out... it was Truman
at that time wasn't it?) because they WANTED the two bombs to be dropped and
tested while public opinion was still on their side.

I too, feel the bombs had to be dropped... but for very different reasons.
It has changed the way people think for better or worse.

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 01:06:32 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Marines
.
>Experience is the only thing that can't be taught. All things being equal, I
>am of the opinion that experience is probably the most important of the
>three categories.

  FWIW, if an example could be made of a WW I UK infantry unit known for its
poets then a good argument could be made that the best battalions in the BEF
had little or no combat experience, and yet if the Boer War had been only a
few years previous it's hard to see how they* could have done better.

  * the cavalry could have used the practice though. If nothing else, certain
field grade officers could've done their duty by stopping a slug in the brain-
pan, however tiny.

>As an example of what I mean, look at how Heinz Guderian's influential book
>"Achtung Panzer" helped to reinvent modern warfare after World War I. Prior
>to this, the role of armor was entirely different, sort of like rolling
>bunkers with light artillery to support infantry. The role of air power
>changed drastically as well.

  "Achtung! Panzer!" was published in 1937; you're probably thinking of
Fuller or Liddell-Hart.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #787
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 29 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 788



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Girlie Marines That Wear (Battle) Dresses
Re: CT Skills
Re: CT Skills
Xenobiology 101 : Introductory Remarks (long)
Skill Levels [WAS: Vilani Lies, Imperial Marines]
Re: Girlie Marines That Wear (Battle) Dresses
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Re Battle Dress
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: CT Skills 
RE: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek
Test, please ignore.
OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:09:55 -0700
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:04:36 -0400, Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
wrote:

>Steven Hudson writes:
>"ISTR from the novel that many of those features (including 
>Brown gear-headism?) were attributed to mutations that occurred 
>in the aftermath of the destruction associated with the first 
>few cycles - if so (and there were _lots_ of Moties and mutagens 
>running around during those years) then must Motie geneering 
>skill at the time be much greater than that of a 17th C. English 
>gentleman sheep farmer?"
>
>	It's been a while, but I thought that it was implied that
>	the Moties had geneered themselves. I would find it
>	even more difficult to believe that the Moties could have
>	been bread from random mutations, given the extreme 
>	specialization and ability that they displayed.
>
>Peez

My own reading suggests that Steven is right:  they use no genetic
engineering techniques more advanced than breeding/eugenics.  Motie
generations are very short, especially among the smaller forms (like
Watchmakers); presumably, the Masters simply bred their subjects for the
desired qualities until they got Warriors, or Doctors, or whatever caste
they wanted to create.

The real reason that trying to invent some sort of birth control method
(whether surgical, chemical, geneering, what have you) doesn't work is that
the Moties have no central government.  If one Master's subjects stop
breeding, eventually the others outnumber him and wipe him out so they can
take his land.  Population pressure leads to total ruthlessness.  (Niven
uses a similar theme in his description of the constant warring between Pak
protectors to gain living space for their bloodlines.)

So unless someone has the ability to IMPOSE a solution on the entire Motie
population at once, it won't work.  Cue the sequel...


- --------------
Kelly St.Clair     "At last we will reveal our pants to the Jedi.  At last we
kellys@efn.org      will have revenge."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:48:55 +0100
From: Ashley Munday <Ashley.Munday@liffe.com>
Subject: Girlie Marines That Wear (Battle) Dresses

As so many others, my Cr. 0.02.

Doug, he say, many digests past while I was sleeping: "The rational is that
no matter how many roles they serve unarmored, when heavy combat comes up
Marines suit up."

How come then in "The Kinunir" only 1/3 of the ships troops are equipped
with BD and PGMP-13's?They're the jump troopers who get bunged in capsules
and dropped on the unsuspecting. The other 2/3 are a Vacc Suited boarding
unit and a unit of motorised infantry.

Loads of people seem to be assuming that BD makes you invulnerable to small
arms fire. What a load of cock. A Gaus Rifle, ACR or Autorifle with a
moderately competent user breaks through often enough to make most people
wearing BD dive for cover. AHL and Striker made it a bit better, but even
then there's a fair chance of injuring someone in BD with the slug throwing
small arms.

So, if GURPS Traveller is giving BD a massive PD and DR, IMO it aint right
and someone ought to change it.

Another thing... The Quote of Loren the Wise "All marines are equipped with
battle dress, and are armed with FGMP-14s." If the Marines are all equipped
to TL 14 - 15, how do they get on in the Regina subsector (highest TL was 13
in 1105)? Presumably the marines there use TL 13 gear (as in "The Kinunir")
so they can get it fixed locally. (Side issue: Do the Imperial Navy and
Scouts also have some lower tech gear so they can get it fixed on more
worlds?)

Finally, the Roc says: "It paints a rather amusing picture of IM catering
Corp personnel making
brekkie or peeling spuds in a field kitchen in full BD!"

Not at all - ever tried lifting a 40 pot of porridge for a platoon without
BD on?

Cheers,

Ash
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:56:36 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

At 15:19 28/06/1999, Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net wrote:
<snip>
>>Third Imperium your average free trader must be packed like a Tokyo subway.
>
>Captain: "Well, looks we we're going to need to drive a steam locomotive,
>decipher Old High Vilani and shoot crossbows while bribing clerks in this
>adventure."
>
>1st Officer: "Right, I'll go defrost Fitz and Duncan, and stick the
>Engineering staff in the Cold Sleep Berths."

You, you, you...

you have no have no respect for other people's keyboards or their
ability to concentrate at work, do you?

:-)

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:07:36 +0100
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

At 16:53 28/06/1999 -0600, "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net> wrote:

>>> and you'll just look like an ass trying to use
>>> streetwise to navigate through a planetoid belt. ;)
>>
>>Pilot's job.
>
>
>How does said pilot get his training? Certainly not as a young merchant.

When generating a group a player characters, my usual preference is
to have an ex-Navy pilot out of flight school with pilot 3 or 4 and
just use the owner/captain's pilot 1 as a backup.

The same goes for most of the other technical ship skills, so it
seems reasonable to me.

Let the armed forces provide the technical training which they
seem good at, and the merchants provide the people whose career
ambition was to make money.

IIRC, things improved with book 7 and megacorp engineering branches - 
finally organisations who can afford training in the technical stuff.

Phil Kitching
- --
  http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
  Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
 "Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:15:35 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Xenobiology 101 : Introductory Remarks (long)

Alien flora and fauna are a staple part of much science fiction.
A large body of literature exists describing ways of building plausible
worlds. When it comes to 'critters' one is left a little more to one's
own devices.

The purpose of this series of articles is to consider relevant aspects
of biology, (bio)chemistry, physics, physiology and ecology in order to
flesh out game statistics.

[The rules presented in the various incarnations of Traveller and some
other RPGs (I haven't sighted a copy of 'GURPS Bestiary' or 'Uplift')
present a good starting point for creating creature encounters
(approximate ecological niche, size, speed, armour, health, damage
capacity, etc.)]
	
* Definition of life
For the purposes of this discussion, 'living things' are those systems
which :-
 - are capable (to varying extents) of growth, self-repair and
reproduction ;
 - require various energetic and chemical inputs to enable these
processes.

These criteria get blurry at both ends of the size scale : is a prion
'alive'? a single enzyme? an ecosystem? a biosphere?

Leaving this philosophical problem aside, let us begin.

* Prequisites
Three basic conditions seem to be necessary to the development of life.
 - Building blocks ;
 - Energy ; and 
 - Solvents

1. Building blocks
Appropriate elements need to be present for anything to happen at all.

Cosmic abundance of the first thirty elements :-
Hydrogen	1		Chromium	9 X 10^(-7)
Helium		0.25		Manganese	5 X 10^(-7)
Oxygen	        10^(-4)	        Phosphorus	2 X 10^(-7)
Carbon-----------		Chlorine	"
Neon            |		Potassium	10^(-7)
Magnesium	~5 X 10^(-5)	Titanium	9 X 10^(-8)
Silicon         |		Cobalt		7 X 10^(-8)
Iron-------------		Fluorine	5 X 10^(-8)
Sulphur	        2 X 10^(-5)	Zinc		"
Nitrogen	7.5 X 10^(-6)	Copper		2 X 10^(-8)
Nickel		"		Vanadium	10^(-8)
Aluminium	5 X 10^(-6)	Boron		5 X 10^(-9)
Sodium	        2 X 10^(-6)	Scandium	10^(-9)
Calcium	        "		Beryllium	10^(-10)
Argon		10^(-6)	        Lithium	        10^(-11)

Heavier elements are RARE.

In the 1960s, Urey and Miller demonstrated that the four basic classes
of terrestrial 'biological molecules', (amino acids, fats, sugars and
nucleotides) could be generated from a mixture of water, methane (CH4),
ammonia (NH3) and hydrogen subjected to electricity.

Carbon provides a skeleton on which complex compounds can be built ; it
is tetravalent and forms strong stable covalent bonds (electron sharing)
with other elements.

Oxygen is a highly reactive chemical which permits the development of
polar species.
Its higher affinity for electrons leads to localised negative charge
around the oxygen atom - the donor becomes relatively positively
charged. Water molecules are a good example :-
        H d+
        /
    d- O            [approximately, allowing for text-only messages]
        \           [d+ and d- represent weak but significant charges]
        H d+

Nitrogen can form a wide variety of compounds with the other elements ;
ammonia is an important solvent.

Are there any other candidate elements for the 'short list of building
blocks'?

Silicon : like carbon, it is tetravalent and therefore has the potential
to form complex structures.
	However, silicon has a larger covalent radius (bigger atoms!) and
therefore compounds with pure silicon backbones e.g. the silanes
(SiH4, Si2H6, etc.) are not as stable as their carbon analogues.
	In fact silanes larger than SiH4 decompose explosively in water and
oxygen ; they may be more stable in less polar solvent systems or
at extremely low temperatures, neither of which are conducive to the
development of the complex chemical systems we are looking for.
	Silicones (chains of alternating silicon and oxygen atoms) are
very stable and represent a viable (but unusual) alternative to carbon
as a ‘foundation material’.
[Silicates - silicon oxides - comprise much of the mass of rocky
bodies!]

Boron : It has a similar covalent radius to carbon, so compounds are
likely to be more stable. Being trivalent, it can replace nitrogen in
most carbon compounds. Like silicon, boron hydrides (B2H6, etc.) react
vigorously with water and oxygen.

Other elements reflect the metals and salts present in the primordial
solvent. The following elements are also present in varying proportions
in terrestrial life (in no particular order) :-

Chlorine, phosphorus, sulphur, fluorine, selenium, iodine, sodium,
potassium, magnesium, calcium, iron, zinc, copper, cobalt, manganese,
molybdenum, and vanadium.

Many of the metallic elements listed above have catalytic functions.
The non-metals could be important in the formation of solvents and
metabolic pathways.

2. Energy
The Second Law of Thermodynamics implies that a chemical system will
tend to move towards the lowest energy state. Living things rely on
energy from ‘outside’ to maintain internal complexity and order.
	The most important source (at least for surface-based life) is from the
star(s) the planet orbits.
	The ‘solar constant’ is ~1353W per square metre at one AU (150
million km) ; it varies inversely with the square of the distance from
the primary, directly with luminosity, and is attenuated by the
atmosphere, depending on its composition (roughly inversely with
atmospheric pressure/density ; the maximum energy (100% efficiency)
obtainable on the ground on Earth is 956W per square metre).
	Internal heat, from the decay of radioisotopes in the mantle and
core regions of metallic and rocky worlds (in ‘First In’ terms,
non-rockballs) leads to familiar phenomena such as plate tectonics and
vulcanism. As recently demonstrated, the deep ocean vents allow the
development of a vigorous ecosystem in the vicinity of the plume.  
	Satellites of gas giants develop a significant amount of internal heat
from tidal effects driven by their primary.
Io is a good example of this. Europa may have large bodies of liquid
water beneath its icy exterior.

Other compounds may be present that make important reactions more likely
to happen (catalysts). The required activation energy may be reduced by
the presence of intermediary electron donors (e.g. metals and metal
ions) or a substrate which allows compounds to interact more readily
(e.g. clays, porous rocks, etc.) 

3. Solvents
Chemical reactions need an appropriate medium to take place in.
Solvents need to have certain properties for our purposes.
	They should be composed of common elements from the list above.
	They should be liquid across a wide temperature range - this increases
the probability of ‘life processes’ starting in them in the
first place.
	They need to be relatively polar to encourage the dissociation of salts
into their constituent ions ; this facilitates the transfer of
electrons and thus enables the development of potential differences.
This becomes important in a wide variety of cellular functions (to be
discussed in a later post).

Some candidate solvents :-

Solvent	        Formula	  Melting Point	  Boiling Point	  Dipole moment
* Water		H2O		0		100		6.2
* Hydrogen	H2O2		-0.4		158		7.3
peroxide
* Ammonia	NH3		-78		-33	        4.9
* Nitric acid	HNO3		-47		86		7.2
* Nitrosyl	NOCl		-65		-6		6.3
chloride
* Hydrazine	N2H4		1		114		5.8
* Hydrogen	HF		-83		19		6.1
fluoride
* Sulphur	SO2		-73		-10	        5.5
dioxide
* Sulphuryl	SO2Cl2		-54		69		6.0
chloride
* Thionyl	SOCl2		-104		75	        4.8
chloride
* Sulphuryl	SO2F2		-120		-52		3.7
fluoride
* Sulphur       SO2             -73      	-10	        5.5
dioxide		
* Phosphorus	PF3		-160		-95		3.4
trifluoride
* Phosgene	COCl2		-104		8		3.9
* Hydrogen	HCl		-114		-85		3.6
chloride
* Hydrogen	H2S		-83		-62		3.2
sulphide

Melting and boiling points are in degrees Celsius ; boiling points
assume one atmosphere (101 kPa, 14.5psi or 760mm mercury/Torr) ambient
pressure.
Dipole moment is a measure of molecular polarity and is expressed in
units of 10^(-30) coulomb metres. Salts are obviously much more polar ;
for example sodium chloride has a dipole moment of 30. 

The two most likely compounds are water and ammonia, on the basis of
cosmic abundance and their intermediate reactivity, but the others are
certainly plausible.

* Likely Worlds (using G:T 'First In')
Given the criteria above :-
i. Surface based life requires an atmosphere to prevent important
chemicals from boiling off into space.
ii. Underground life requires active geology or tidal heating.

There is an enormous degree of latitude possible with (underground)
life, especially considering more exotic solvents of freezing points of
- -100 degrees Celsius or lower!
	This gives us plenty of world types to play with. 
In fact almost any world could support some sort of subsurface microbial
life, given the right chemistry.

Worlds with surface liquid are much more likely to be life bearing.
This liquid will be the solvent system in which life arises, on balance
of probabilities.

* What? No cryogenic creatures or plasma beings?
I have ignored the possibility of creatures that function at extremes
of temperature for the following reasons :-
	Reaction rates will either be very slow or terribly fast depending on
which end of the scale is being considered.
	The other problems with high temperatures are that very few compounds
remain stable ; certainly complex molecules are unlikely to survive.
Their formation in any case is problematic as there is plenty
 of energy available but not enough time for reactants to stick
together. 
	Low-temperature creatures (superconducting nervous systems?)
need highly concentrated building blocks in order to happen at all
(again, consider the composition of typical superconductors).
	In summary : high/low temperature = high/low energy = low probability
of establishing the necessary level of order. 
 	
* Aside : Eutectic mixtures and temperature ranges :-
A eutectic mixture is one whose melting point is lower than any of
its ingredients.
	This effect is a consequence of freezing point depression - one of the
colligative properties of a solution. (Those properties depending on the
amount of substance dissolved in a solvent rather than the identity of
the solute - the others are boiling point elevation, vapour pressure
depression and osmotic pressure).
	An example of freezing point depression : water's freezing point
 can be depressed by 1.86 degrees C per mole of substance added per
 kilogram of water.
	Ammonia has a solubility of 480g ammonia per kilogram of water
 at 25 degrees C. The mass of one mole of ammonia is 17g (NH3) - so 480g
 is 28.2 moles. The freezing point of our saturated ammonia-water
 solution is roughly -50 degrees Celsius!

* What's in the next post?
>From building blocks to biomolecules : the advent of order
Metabolism : What does it mean to be an 'oxygen breather', anyway?
The coming of cells : the importance of membranes
Multicellularity : the grand experiment


Constructive criticism and comments welcome.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 05:35:14 -0500
From: "Slack, Andy" <andy.slack@gb.unisys.com>
Subject: Skill Levels [WAS: Vilani Lies, Imperial Marines]

Baselines:
CT Book 1 fully qualified: Level 1. [Says so in Book 3]
CT Book 5+ fully qualified: Level 2. [Says so in High Guard]
CT licenced Doctor: Level 3 [Says so in Book 1]

"Fully qualified" means someone you would trust to fly a
starship, lead a platoon in combat, fix your groundcar etc.
Personally I would rate this as 2-3 years of experience,
based on software teams I've led, and that stacks up quite
well with CT.

Depending on whether you use Books 4/5 and the Instruction
rules or not, it takes between 6 weeks and 2 years to gain
an expertise level. Taking the doctor as a yardstick, level 3
[GT skill level 15] represents probably four years of
intensive training and experience for the average PC.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 03:25:04
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Girlie Marines That Wear (Battle) Dresses

At 10:48 AM 6/29/99 +0100, you wrote:
>As so many others, my Cr. 0.02.
>
>Doug, he say, many digests past while I was sleeping: "The rational is that
>no matter how many roles they serve unarmored, when heavy combat comes up
>Marines suit up."
>
>How come then in "The Kinunir" only 1/3 of the ships troops are equipped
>with BD and PGMP-13's?They're the jump troopers who get bunged in capsules
>and dropped on the unsuspecting. The other 2/3 are a Vacc Suited boarding
>unit and a unit of motorised infantry.

Because that's how the Navy decided the Marine complement of the class
should be divied up this way.  Nothing about that ship made sense IMHO.

>Loads of people seem to be assuming that BD makes you invulnerable to small
>arms fire. What a load of cock. A Gaus Rifle, ACR or Autorifle with a
>moderately competent user breaks through often enough to make most people
>wearing BD dive for cover. AHL and Striker made it a bit better, but even
>then there's a fair chance of injuring someone in BD with the slug throwing
>small arms.
>
>So, if GURPS Traveller is giving BD a massive PD and DR, IMO it aint right
>and someone ought to change it.

Why?  You can build powerful Battledress using Vehicles, and why shouldn't
the Marines and select Army troops have the best?  You can take a shot at
the vision slit (-9 to hit), or use a heavy weapon, but the whole idea is
that the battledress equipped trooper is going to be something as
terrifying to normal infantry as a King Tiger was on the Western Front.

>Another thing... The Quote of Loren the Wise "All marines are equipped with
>battle dress, and are armed with FGMP-14s." If the Marines are all equipped
>to TL 14 - 15, how do they get on in the Regina subsector (highest TL was 13
>in 1105)? Presumably the marines there use TL 13 gear (as in "The Kinunir")
>so they can get it fixed locally. (Side issue: Do the Imperial Navy and
>Scouts also have some lower tech gear so they can get it fixed on more
>worlds?)

We took our TL-8 Marines and soldiers to Somalia, and they didn't suddenly
become TL-5.  The Navy and Marines train and equip at the Imperial standard
level.  They carry spares and have those nice Navy bases.

Acorrding to FFW, there are many Army units from TL-11 to 14.  Only the
Marines are exclusively TL-15. 

>Finally, the Roc says: "It paints a rather amusing picture of IM catering
>Corp personnel making
>brekkie or peeling spuds in a field kitchen in full BD!"
>
>Not at all - ever tried lifting a 40 pot of porridge for a platoon without
>BD on?

You know, I did KP when I was in the Army.  Even though I was infantry, I
didn't do it in steel pot, full camo, while carrying an M-16.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 03:33:14
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

At 11:02 AM 6/29/99 +1000, you wrote:

>Well, like my son used to read GI-Joe, how they always had the biggest and
>badest stuff at their disposal, sounds very similar.  Like the current
>generation of comics he likes to read, where everything is available and
>almost common to the characters.  You know, that sort of thing.

No, not the characters, but the Marines.  There is an important difference.  

The book this proposal is for is the sourcebook to the *active duty*
Imperial ground troops.  Not the retired, ex-Marines you see running around
Free traders.  So the TO&Es and skill templates are going to reflect the
needs of the Imperial will.

If you design a Marine, he *will* know how to use Battledress.  It's a
required skill in the template.  If you decide the rest of his career was
spent as a file clerk at a logistical dump, then his skills will reflect
that choice.  But someday, he might find himself in a position to use the
half-forgotten skill.

- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 03:37:13
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Re Battle Dress

At 12:06 AM 6/29/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Question to Doug Berry now: Why the change in the ranks titles (established
>in canon in CT and MT by the tables in the expanded CGen)?

Two reasons:

1.  I don't really think that rank titles are going to freeze for the next
few millennia when the rank structure it was based on has already changed
twice since the publication of Mercenary.

2. I like mine better.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 06:55:03 -0400
From: "Slack, Andy" <andy.slack@gb.unisys.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

Chris Seamans <semo@pil.net> wrote:
>But again, I draw from history/real life.  BD is kit, you don't
have dress BD (but then again you might), you don't have KP-BD or mess-BD...
you have it, but the situation does not demand you use it.  Certain actions
are like that.<

ROFLMAO! I knew Marine food would be bad, but jeez, if they have to wear
BD into the galley and mess...

Andy

"The tougher the army, the worse the food. I just didn't realise the
Roman army was _that_ tough." -- Asterix the Legionary

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:00:13 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: CT Skills 

At 04:55 PM 28/06/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>> If you would have deigned to try to understand my original point, perhaps
>> you wouldn't have needed to resort to base sarcasm. It is possible to roll
>> up a character that doesn't have a single ship-based skill. Hence, it is
>> quite difficult for him to be part of that fully crewed starship that you
>> allude to... which takes us back to square one, there'd be little reason for
>> him to be on the free trader in the first place, except to use his
>> specialized abilities when they're called for, and that means that in the
>> Third Imperium your average free trader must be packed like a Tokyo subway.
>
>OK, your 'ship based' skills keep your boat flying.  Your *non* ship-based 
>skills (weapons, Broker, Trader, Admin, Streetwise, etc) are what make and 
>protect your money on the ground.  And IIRC, *ANYBODY* could be a steward on 
>a ship, doesn't take Steward skill, they just screw up people's dinner orders 
>a lot & the ship's laundry breaks down on them.  A *lot*.
>
>Would I pay for a 'utility infielder' without hard ship skills (Pilot, Nav, 
>Engineering, Gunnery)?  Depending on his skills, I might.  Give him Wheeled & 
>Grav Vehicle, some decent Admin (2+), and I'd hire him on the spot to be my 
>loadmaster & purser in flight.  He'd also be the guy I'd send to town to 
>unload my speculative cargo and find the next load to slick out and make a 
>cred or 3 on.  Add a Handgun level, and he'd double as a security officer 
>during flight, keep the biofreight from gettin too awful out of hand.
>
>Keven

        <Jumping up and down and waving arms to get attention>
        <Making "T" time-out signal>

        Guys...  You seem to be arguing two different worlds here.  What a
*real* tramp frieghter crew should have, and what your average random "You
met in a bar and all decided to buy a Free Trader together" *player
character* will have.
        The two pictures just don't mesh.  No point in arguing about it.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:00:12 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: RE: TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek

At 04:38 PM 28/06/1999 -0400, you wrote:
>Jay Alverson writes:
><snipped>
>"> Fri, 25 Jun 1999 18:25:27, "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
>> 
>> >>ObTrav:  Traveller military personnel (at least those generated with
>> >>Mercenary or High Guard) seem to be _much_ more competent in combat than
>> >>either redshirts or Stormtroopers."
>
>	Are you kidding? How many Imperial Marines have the 
>	pin-point accuracy required to fire that many shots in that
>	little space and still not hit anyone?!
>
>Peez
>

        LOL!

        Seriously, I have preided over two types of gunfights, in general,
in my Traveller games.  The first was "Rogue Prince" game where SMG-2 was
the *meanest* weapon skill anyone had....  Body-pistol-1 was the norm.  More
than one gunfight looked like Storm Troopers vs Rebel Soldiers with two
sides of five or six blasting away at each other....
        ....And only making a real mess out of each other's clothes in the
first *minute*, since they were all wearing balistic cloth underneath.

        The other was a CAT Squad (Counter, Actively, Terrorism) game, where
Fusion Pistol -2 was standard for the Home Team and one-shot kills were the
norm and the sniper had Laser Rifle-5.

        It really depends on what type of game you are running and how
important the fight scenes are.

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:41:56 +0100
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Test, please ignore.

1 ... 2 ...

1 ... 2 ...

Not testing just counting my brain cells ...

- -- 

   Ewan Quibell                       Their's not to make reply,
   Senior Communications Engineer     Their's not to reason why,
   Computer Centre                    Their's but to do and die:
   University of Brighton             Into the valley of Death
                                      Rode the six hundred.
   E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              Alfred, Lord Tennyson

   #include<stddisclaimer.h>

   My spelling is entirerly due to dyslexia, typos, and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:40:42 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning

(Sorry to waste bandwidth, but this is important)

Friends,

Over the weekend someone brought up the Yahoo/Geocities merger and the new,
revised Terms of Service.  Simply put, if you have any sites hosted by
Yahoo/Geocities, you risk loosing control and ownership of the content and
materials on your site, even if it is copywritten or trademarked.

Here is a link to an article that goes into detail regarding the situation.
 You may need to cut and paste it into your browser as it is a bit long.

http://technews.netscape.com/computing/technews/newsitem/0,290,38463,00.html
?pt.netscape.fd.hl.ne

Here is the relevant portion of the Yahoo/Geocities TOS that states the
changes:

>8. CONTENT SUBMITTED TO YAHOO
>
>By submitting Content to any Yahoo property, you automatically grant, or 
>warrant that the owner of such Content has expressly granted, Yahoo the 
>royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive and fully sublicensable 
>right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, 
>create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display such Content 
>(in whole or part) worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works in any 
>form, media, or technology now known or later developed. You acknowledge 
>that Yahoo does not pre-screen Content, but that Yahoo and its designees 
>shall have the right (but not the obligation) in their sole discretion to 
>refuse, edit, move or remove any Content that is publicly available via the 
>Service. Without limiting the foregoing, Yahoo and its designees shall have 
>the right to remove any Content that violates the TOS or is otherwise 
>objectionable. You agree that you must evaluate, and bear all risks 
>associated with, the use of any Content, including any reliance on the 
>accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of such Content. In this regard, you 
>acknowledge that you may not rely on any Content created by Yahoo or 
>submitted to Yahoo, including without limitation information in Yahoo! 
>Message Boards, Yahoo! Clubs, and in all other parts of the Service. 

Note:  If you sign in using the new TOS, you will unfortuantely be bound by
them.

Free sites are nice, but now they are nice if you have nothing to loose.
Most of the larger free site hosts have similar or comprable Terms of
Service, so please re-read them and if you have any questions, either
contact the Host's help desk or pull your site and host it with your ISP or
with a pay for use site.



Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #788
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 29 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 789



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Girlie Marines That Wear (Battle) Dresses
Re: Re Battle Dress
re: Xenobiology 101
Imperial Marines and Operations Other Than War
More Battle Dress stuff
Re: CT Skills
Re: Brand Power/Loyalty
RE: Shoot-outs (was TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)
Re: 001-0
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses
Re: CT Skills
RE: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses
Re: CT Skills
RE: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
[OT] Re: Start-ups (was: Re: Armor update)
Re: Trade Routes question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 21:14:01 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Girlie Marines That Wear (Battle) Dresses

The answer to a battlesuited marine - a HEAP grenade...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:17:47 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Re Battle Dress

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
> 
> At 12:06 AM 6/29/99 -0400, you wrote:
> 
> >Question to Doug Berry now: Why the change in the ranks titles (established
> >in canon in CT and MT by the tables in the expanded CGen)?
> 
> Two reasons:
> 
> 1.  I don't really think that rank titles are going to freeze for the next
> few millennia when the rank structure it was based on has already changed
> twice since the publication of Mercenary.
> 
> 2. I like mine better.

One way to keep the the canon-cockers happy would be to mention that
these rank titles are part of a post-FFW reform and reorganization.

Come to think of it, that would work to explain your increased emphasis
on BD training and use by the IM.

Just don't take away my Imperial Army BD Jump Troops!

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:26:06 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Xenobiology 101

Ian Ferguson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
"The development of vertebrate gonads and their ducts is 
inextricably mixed up with the kidneys and urinary ducts, and 
usually with the cloaca too. So our 'instinctive' reproductive 
behaviour has all kinds of parasitological hang-ups. It could have 
been anticipated that an intelligent vertebrate social species 
would find much of its social excitement in sexual guilts [What 
the hell?! I think this comes under the category of "brain fart"].

	No argument, that sounds like frontal flatulance to me. I
	worry about this man's mental health.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The best guess I can come up with is that the speaker saw near-
inevitable psychological problems due to our design combining
an excretory organ with a reproductive organ.

If we did all our reproduction with a specialized tube that stuck out of
our foreheads, and did nothing but copulative and reproductive
functions, would the human race be so inclined to see sex as "dirty"?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 07:28:21 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Imperial Marines and Operations Other Than War

>Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:20:49 -0400
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
>Subject: Re: Imperial Marines
>
>Yes, however, are they to be considered police actions and peace-keeping as
>we know them today? I haven't taken a look at the Imperial rules of war
>recently, so I may be a little off base.
>
>The line I'm really interested in is "enforcing the Imperial rules of war."
>I seem to recall that most of the Imperial rules of war the Marines might be
>called in to enforce is the use of nuclear, biological or chemical weapons.
>In other words, weapons of mass destruction. 

MT Imperial Encyclopedia, p. 28:

"The main aim of the rules was maintaining the economic and military
well-being of the realm. They gave the Imperium the right to intervene only
when local military action threatened this well-being. The primary causes
of instability, as viewed by Imperial analysts, have been long-term
economic dislocation and excessive extraplanetary influence:
"A. Long-term social or economic dislocation is suffered when a region
loses its ability to cary on at its pre-war level of economic activity.
"B. Excessive extraplanetary influence is even more vague. Historically,
the Imperium has tolerated the use of force as a necessary outlet for
built-up political and social pressures. In such cases, a short war is
deemed preferable to continuing tension, sabotage, political agitation,
etc. However, attempts by extraplanetary forces, such as offworld
governments or large commercial interests, to seize control of a world's
affairs are beyond the scope of the "safety valve" rationale....
"Unlike the above rules, one prohibition is clear and firm throughout the
Imperium: use or possession of nuclear weapons, if discovered, and
regardless of size or type."

So there are a whole range of actions that could trigger Imperial
intervention. Use or possessions of WMD's is simply the only automatic one.

>The same thing with peace-keeping. Forces. Is it peace-keeping in the modern
>sense or a sort of efficient Imperial peace-keeping.
>
>Do the marines get down on the ground in white grav-APCs and blue combat
>armor with big, white Imperial Starbursts emblazoned on their heads and
>wedge themselves between combatants to keep the peace? Or do they say:
>"Start blowing each other up again, and we send the marines down with a
>six-pack of whoopass."
>
>It's a tough question. Imperial forces answer to the emperor. The emperor
>only has to worry if the moot strongly disagrees with him... I think that,
>especially with the Vilani mindset, peace-keeping will be of the second
>sort, not the first. It's the most efficient use of materials and training,
>both of which are expensive.

Only if the threat is believed. Somewhere, sometime, there will be some
jerkwater dictator/corporate climber (Burke) who doesn't believe the
Imperium has the will or the skill to stop him from doing whatever he wants
(sound familiar, anyone?). At that point, the question becomes, how do I
employ all these lovely battledress-equipped Marines without doing more
damage than good? If you can't do this reasonably well, your threat loses
its credibility with everyone else. 
Shooting wars are easy: both sides line up, wear uniforms to identify who
is on which side, and duke it out in the open. Anything less than a
full-blown war is hard, especially when some of the "combatants" are
civilians or part-timers. Vietnam is not the only war in recent memory
where just finding "the Enemy" was one of the most difficult parts of the
entire operation.

Now picture the mission and intent the Marine Task Force CO has just been
handed (probably by the IN fleet or squadron commander, as the senior
Imperial official present):

"On order, deploy your task force to and occupy planet Quagmire to
establish Imperial presence. Secure the starport and consulate in order to
protect Imperial interests and create a beachhead for further
reinforcement; garrison forces are attached to you upon linkup. Clear
belligerents from Quagmire City and a 10km radius around it in order to
restore security and stability. Be prepared to clear and maintain a zone up
to 100 km in radius.

"I want you to use surprise and overwhelming combat power to shock the
belligerents into inaction, then exploit your momentum to seize the
initiative from both sides and establish a new status quo with you in
charge. At the end of the operation, your task force has secured the
starport and the consulate, you have put an end to all active hostilities
within Quagmire City and the 10km buffer zone, and there has been minimal
collateral damage to the city and its inhabitants."

That's actually pretty clear cut, and even so it begs the question of how
he's supposed to know a "belligerent" if they aren't actively shooting. Are
the corps on-planet involved ("excessive planetary influence") or are they
entitled to protection ("Imperial interests")? What is "security and
stability", and how does he know when it's achieved? 

More likely, the usual op order consists of "Get in there, and stop the
fighting!"

>I would tend to think that whenever the Imperial Marines are used, the
>situation heats up to full-blown combat if it hasn't already.

My point is that this makes them an extremely blunt instrument; you might
just as well nuke 'em from orbit instead. 

As the proverb would have it, "Fighting for peace is like copulating for
virginity." Somewhere along the line, you have to employ carefully
modulated and focused violence against just those elements who are still
causing problems in an otherwise innocent population, one that you have
been sent in to protect. This requires extensive human intelligence and
face-to-face contacts. It requires TRUST, not only for the locals to give
the Marines the information they need to carry out the mission, but for
them to accept that the solution the Marines offer is a better alternative
than continuing to fight each other (or the Marines). 

I'm having a hard time imagining how faceless battlesuited stormtroopers
are going to get to this level of trust, or how (as you say) they can avoid
becoming a provocation to total warfare. Certainly, if "the Marines have
landed" is automatically equivalent to "everything you care about will be
destroyed, whether you had any part in this conflict or not", they are not
going to get much cooperation.

"Peace-keeping" cannot mean "Kill them all, and God shall know his own," if
the Imperium is to survive.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:35:04 +0100
From: Ashley Munday <Ashley.Munday@liffe.com>
Subject: More Battle Dress stuff

Doug replied to my points. The first was about the make up of the Marine
platoon on Kinunir class ships.

"Because that's how the Navy decided the Marine complement of the class
should be divied up this way.  Nothing about that ship made sense IMHO."

I was only 12 or 13 when I saw "The Kinunir," so I didn't have the benefit
of Sir's intense wisdom about what was right and what was wrong about the
ship design. Having said that, it's the oldest example I've seen in print of
a Marine platoon: Only 1/3 wearing BD: It's a de-facto standard. Saying "All
marines wear BD and use FMGP-14s" goes against that standard.

I mentioned that BD is not as rock hard as various peoples implication: Doug
replied that using (I assume GURPS)vehicles that you can build something
that is. He goes on:

"...but the whole idea is that the battledress equipped trooper is going to
be something as terrifying to normal infantry as a King Tiger was on the
Western Front."

Sorry old son, but it patently isn't that scary. AFAIK taking out a Tiger
Tank with a small arm is an exercise in futility, not the chance a character
with a Gaus rifle gets shooting at someone in Battle Dress gets. What I'd
hate to see is one weekend we play in a universe where a burst of Gaus rifle
fire has a fair chance of taking out a man in TL 13 BD (using Book 1 / AHL
or Striker) and the next weekend we have the situation where the same weapon
in the hands of a comparable character won't stand a chance (using GURPS).

Ash
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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:32:18 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 3:09 AM
Subject: Re: CT Skills


>Um.  I was being sarcastic.


My apologies, a misunderstanding.

>They may in fact be useful to make  starship go.
>But they are not useless to anyone who might be _on_ a starship,
>since that will inevitably take the character somewhere else.


That's interesting. Traveller always gave me the impression that there was
usually a small group of people on board a free trader and that as a result,
there should be a sort of doubling up factor on skills. However, now I can
understand why free trader crews can't ever make ends meet... Too many
mouths to feed ;)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:37:48 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Brand Power/Loyalty

>What do list-folk do about introducing pros and cons, quirks and
features

>to their goodies to make them appealing to the buying public (PC's) ?=20
Or

>are people using no-name brand generic products ?


When time permits, I allow my imagination to run away.  Advertisement
encountered by the Players at one point is below;


[hope this comes through without code and such.  Apologies if not]


Of course, this is the advertiser's hype.  In practce not everything
worked as advertised.  There is a picture but, alas, not in digital
format, yet.  Picture a Chevy Suburban with gull-wing side doors and a
lumpy top hatch aft of the driver's sunroof.


<bold><fontfamily><param>Arial</param>Rorschach Vehicle Company Fact
Sheet for;


</fontfamily></bold><fontfamily><param>Braggadocio</param><bigger><bigger><b=
igger>The
MacGregor Explorer



</bigger></bigger></bigger></fontfamily><fontfamily><param>Arial</param>	Thi=
s
Top-of-the-line Heavy Duty Grav Vehicle is perfect for all your
vehicular needs; from flying around the outback of Vishnu hunting the
vicious Gorgoreth long-toothed felinoid, to cruising "The Strip" in
Glisten's famous Honsu Sector.  Do what you do in style and comfort in
the MacGregor Explorer!


=46eatures Include;


=BA Custom Liqui-Plush=A9 letheresque interior seating for six.

=BA A Thorough sensor suite including the Famous Navitron=A9 millimeter
wave navigation radar paired with the highest quality civilian avionics
from Turbulon Systems (we are Nasiirka).  Also allows auto-pilot, NOE
flying assist, global navigation system, remote operation, and many
more features.

=BA Powerful radio communications package to transmit voice and data
across continental range,  Laser emitter for laser communication to
line-of-sight for secure orbital communications.

=BA High quality Allegro grav units; 5 in all with one emergency backup
mounted centrally and one at each corner suspense point.  Output is 26
metric tons of thrust; sufficient to drive the craft at 5G, or to lift=20
up to 15 tons at 1G. =20

=BAExternal eye bolts and hooks at strategic hardpoints allow carrying of
slung loads.  Roof rack available for topside cargo carrying
(pressurized roof-mounted carrying capsule also available).  Eye-bolts
are also placed to allow easy transport or loading/unloading of the
unpowered grav vehicle.

=BA Auxiliary Thruster package (optional) allows limited maneuvering
outside any gravity well, making this vehicle ideal as a ships craft.=20
On-board reaction fuel is good for about 3 g-hours of thrust (normal
load).

=BA Optional atmospheric re-entry package allows surface to orbit travel
and vice versa with the addition of heat-resistant ceramic tiles to the
underside of the craft, maneuvering software for orbital hook-up, and
standardized docking collar hardware to the roof hatch.

=BA Triply redundant Nasiirka 500/36X on-board computers.

=BA Pionitron's Blue Star=A9 High-output Fusion Generator putting out 6.2
Gigawatts of power.  this is ample for all internal systems, and
sufficient to power a small portable habitat for six on an airless
planet.

=BA Battery backup good for 24 hours emergency use (Life support and
communications only).

=BA Full virtual user interface; either plug-in or headset may be used.

=BA Complete life support package with measures ranging from simple
atmosphere filtering and temperature control (no time limit) to full
vacuum capable life support good for 24 hours.  Full inertial dampers
(standard) and optional artificial gravity package keep driver and
passengers comfortable at any speed or acceleration.

=BA Landing and running lights and optional directional spotlights (up to
6) allow rough landing in any conditions.

=BA Shock absorbing four-point retractable landing pods by Anderson
Gear.

=BA Tinted, Protectron=A9  glass for protection against cosmic radiation,
and for privacy.  Hardened to a level sufficient against micrometeors
and, incidentally, small arms fire.

=BA Optional roof hatch for shooting at game, emergency egress, and
style.

=BA Lightly armored hull to prevent damage from normal wear and tear from
preventing a pressure seal, and for resistance against micrometeors,
aggressive animals, or unhappy natives.

=BA Front and rear crystaliron grillwork, High/Low directional lights,
window embedded clarity maintenance system, emergency medical kit,
electronic toolkit, emergency signaling kit.


See your dealer for specific questions and prices

</fontfamily>

Peter H. Brenton

MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center	=09

(617) 253-3185

pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:45:45 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Shoot-outs (was TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)

Michel Vaillancourt writes:
<snipped>
"Seriously, I have preided over two types of gunfights, 
in general, in my Traveller games.  The first was "Rogue 
Prince" game where SMG-2 was the *meanest* weapon skill 
anyone had....  Body-pistol-1 was the norm.  More than one 
gunfight looked like Storm Troopers vs Rebel Soldiers with 
two sides of five or six blasting away at each other....
.And only making a real mess out of each other's clothes 
in the first *minute*, since they were all wearing balistic 
cloth underneath."
The other was a CAT Squad (Counter, Actively, Terrorism) game, 
where Fusion Pistol -2 was standard for the Home Team and one-
shot kills were the norm and the sniper had Laser Rifle-5. 
It really depends on what type of game you are running and how
important the fight scenes are."

	Absolutely. My players enjoy a good shoot-out from time 
	to time, and the first type is usually more fun and lets
	them get out their aggressive urges. The one-shot-one-kill
	can be satisfying as well, depending on which side the 
	players are on!

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 07:44:30 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: 001-0

A
>What day way the founding day of the Third Imperium?
>
>Excel 97 has a date function that says Jan 9 4531 is a Tuesday. That is 
>theoretically the benchmark date.
>
>BUT, is it a Tuesday?
>
>Does the Excel 97 function recognize Feb 29 4000 as a valid date? The 
>Traveller Solomani calendar (perhaps at odds with the current concept of the 
>Solomani calendar) says that every 4th year is a leap year, but the 00 years 
>are not, but every 400th year is (ie, 1600, 2000, 2400). That makes 4000 a 
>leap year. The Traveller universe makes the further adjustment that years 
>divisible by 4000 are not leap years.
>
>If the excel function recognizes Feb 29 4000 as a valid date, then Jan 9
4531 
>isn't a Tuesday. What should it be?

I don't recall anything in any of my Traveller sources that years
divisible by 4000 are not leap years... do you have a reference?

There is a Perpetual Calendar on the Web at
	http://www.wiskit.com/calendar.html
which can give you the month's calendar for any month from 0001 to 9999.
According to that calendar, 4531 01 09 is a Tuesday.

However if in YTU, 4000 was not a leap year, 4531 01 09 is a Monday.

Needless to say, I have the above website bookmarked. Comes in handy
for campaigns set in the future and/or involving Time Travel...



     Glenn St-Germain § Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com § http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:02:29 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

Kelly St.Clair" writes:
"My own reading suggests that Steven is right:  they use no 
genetic engineering techniques more advanced than breeding/
eugenics.  Motie generations are very short, especially 
among the smaller forms (like Watchmakers); presumably, the 
Masters simply bred their subjects for the desired qualities 
until they got Warriors, or Doctors, or whatever caste they 
wanted to create.
The real reason that trying to invent some sort of birth 
control method (whether surgical, chemical, geneering, what 
have you) doesn't work is that the Moties have no central 
government.  If one Master's subjects stop breeding, eventually 
the others outnumber him and wipe him out so they can take his 
land.  Population pressure leads to total ruthlessness.  (Niven
uses a similar theme in his description of the constant warring 
between Pak protectors to gain living space for their bloodlines.)
So unless someone has the ability to IMPOSE a solution on the 
entire Motie population at once, it won't work.  Cue the sequel..."

	I guess my memory is not what it used to be, at least I
	think that it used to be better...      :o
	I still find it hard to believe that the extreme Motie
	abilities could be selectively bred for. For one thing,
	the adaptations themselves stretch my credulity (although
	I cannot claim to really know enough to absolutely deny
	that they are possible). Another problem is that such a 
	breeding program would take a LONG time, requiring
	stability (not a Motie trait) and singularity of purpose.
	Yet another problem is the reproduction issue. How does 
	one selectively breed if everyone reproduces? They could 
	just kill off the ones that they didn't want to breed, but 
	just who is going to kill off the early Warriors that one
	doesn't want to breed? Finally, the arguments quoted above 
	could apply to humans as well. Our generationa are not as 
	short as those of Moties, but we have not bread any trait
	into any 'caste' of humans that I am aware of (one could 
	argue that the sexes are different castes, but that's another 
	story).

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:00:45 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses

Ashley Munday wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
Loads of people seem to be assuming that BD makes you invulnerable to small arms fire. What a load of cock. A Gaus Rifle, ACR or Autorifle with
a moderately competent user breaks through often enough to make most 
people wearing BD dive for cover. AHL and Striker made it a bit better, but 
even then there's a fair chance of injuring someone in BD with the slug 
throwing small arms.
>>>>>>>>>>
IIRC, one of the most effective anti-BD weapons in AHL was a snub pistol 
firing HEAP. That's a sidearm, folks, and a reasonably low-tech one.  ;-)

Note the situation: short ranges, *lots* of cover, engagement ranges often
too short for successful use of unweildy weapons like FGMP's.
Yes, you could kill him and all his buddies with one shot - but he'll
empty his HEAP clip into your face before you've got the FGMP locked
and the suit in a proper firing crouch. 

This guy with the pistol would be a scorchmark on a traditional battlefield,
wiped out by heavy weapons while a kilometer or more away. Put him
in the maze of a starship, he's dangerous. BD is nice, but doesn't 
always rule.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:28:15 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

- -----Original Message-----
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 3:12 AM
Subject: Re: CT Skills


>Keep in mind, both of you, that in CT a party *can* fly a ship with
>a crew that doesn't have the Pilot, Engineering, or Navigation
>skills.  Sure, you *want* skilled people, but computer programs can
>be substituted for some of these tasks and anyone can try almost
>anything with appropriate -DM's.  It makes it tougher to perform
>risky tasks, but the routine things are still pretty routine.


Wha!?!? You're claiming that you don't need *people* to fly a starship? You
can just use these new fangled... what's your word for them? com-PYOO-ter
programs?

Poppycock!

Everyone knows that *people* fly starships, not these new-fangled
com-PYOO-ter programs. After all, if we begin to rely on these <hrmph>
machines, what happens if someone... say, finds a silicon based lifeform and
manages to (as improbable as it may sound) turn it into some sort of
high-tech weapon. A *disease* of computers, roughly analagous to... hmmm...
I think virus is the term your race of savages uses for such a concept.
Fortunately, we were never burdened by such nastiness on Vland. Heh. We
don't even have a term for them in our language!

So, if this <ahem> Virus were to break loose, it would mean the very end of
the Third Imperium! Bah! Not worth the risk, after all, who knows what sort
of *miscreants* would band together afterwards? Without the Imperium, just
about anybody could claim that the stars were their birthright...

Hmmm... Wait just a second. If such a thing happened, then the Three Bureaux
would be untouched, since after all, we still do our *own* long division on
our starships. I'm proud to say that we don't even use those infernal
calc-YOO-lay-tors! If the Three Bureaux were untouched... yes! Now I see it!
A new Ziru Sirka might rise like... like... one of your Phoenixes, from the
ashes of Cleon's...

<ahem>

Yes, yes... I'm all for it.

Pardon me. It's too early and I haven't had enough caffeine. Eris, you do
know that you are appealling to the dark side of my Traveller upbringing by
simply mentioning the concept of automation? You heretics are shameless.

I digress. I took myself entirely too seriously. My apologies for such an
outburst. It's these damnable machines. Communication occurs so quickly.
It's not something I'm used to. I prefer the traditional Vilani art of
writing, but I wouldn't expect you Solomani types to understand such things.
You just can't see the inherent value in tradition. ;)

You do remember that we were zipping around the stars while you people were
mucking about building stone fortresses and such, right?

Now, if you'll excuse me, I must dim the lights and put some clothes into
the drying-machine. You look puzzled? Ah, that's understandable... You
Solomani wouldn't know about such things as the fine, age-old tradition of
Dryer Dimming. You see, when your kind were traipsing around in caves
sticking sharp pointy things into animals, we invented this device to dry
our freshly washed clothes. Thanks to our grand technological advancements,
we Vilani were always at a loss for power. We had to turn down the lights,
just a bit mind you, in order to make sure there was enough energy. Funny
thing, though, I could have sworn Marc said he'd be sure to put Dryer
Dimming in as library data.

<hrmph> As I previously stated, you Solomani have no respect at all for
tradition.

Alright. Alright. I'll go back to my cage now.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 22:48:31 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses

The effective range of man portable plasma and fusion guns is not all that
good.Plus the fact that the marine trooper is in a nice set of armour, which
not only sets off a hole bunch of remote sensors, after all what was the
battle computer and sensor arrays for? It may also have enough ground
pressure to set off anti-armour land mines. Plus at the lower tech levels,
and after the rebellion got into full swing lower tech armour became more
widespread, in TNE at least, the trooper in a loaded battlesuit had both
Agility and Initiative penalties. No wonder the army guys had all those
light anti-armour missiles.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:12:04 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

Steve Daniels wrote:

> Chris Seamans wrote:
>
> > Steve Daniels said:
> >
> > >> Right.  (assuming Edu<8) They can only get:
> > >> Blade CBT, Bribery, Gun CBT, Streetwise, Medical or +1 Str, Dex, or End.
> > >> Those are useless for a merchant on a starship.
>

> [snip]
>

> They may in fact be useful to make  starship go.

There should be a "not" in that sentence.  sorry.

Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:12:08 -0700
From: "Thing" <gduke@orca.esd114.wednet.edu>
Subject: RE: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

On Monday, June 28, 1999 9:47 AM
Ian Ferguson said,

> 	Biologists are trying to figure out why organisms use
> 	sex at all (Yes, I know why I use it, but "why" in an
> 	evolutionary sense). The biggest advantage to sex that
> 	I have heard is that each time an organism reproduces
> 	sexually, it has a chance to reshuffle its genes with
> 	those of another individual. This allows some of your
> 	offspring to loose nasty mutations that you have picked
> 	up, or even pick up useful mutations that your mate has.
> 	So, being hermaphroditic has its advantages and
> 	disadvantages.

The Science & the Citizen article "Mutations Galore" in the 04/99 issue of
Scientific American supported this theory.
http://www.sciam.com/1999/0499issue/0499scicit4.html

Basically they determined that humans have a scarily high mutation rate and
theorized that sexual reproduction has allowed us to select out the bad
genes and reduce the overall fatality through mutation rate.  If this is
true all the modern work on fertility therapy should have an even worse
effect on the gene pool than I have long thought.

the 04/99 issue also has some good articles on tissue engineering and an
article called "Is Space Finite?"
(http://www.sciam.com/1999/0499issue/0499weeks.html) that talks about the
possibility that the universe isn't as vast as it appears.

G.D.D.
=======
We don't care.  We don't have to.  We're engineers.  -unknown

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:13:31 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: [OT] Re: Start-ups (was: Re: Armor update)

"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:

> Kirsten has installed software that shuffles through wallpaper and start-up
> wavs randomly.  This morning I got "This is what happens when demented
> children play with powerful toys" over the Gridlore Technologies logo.

Whats it called? I'd be intereseted in that.

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:24:08 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Trade Routes question

On 06/29/99 16:50:55 you wrote:
>
>Sophonts,
>
>On Pg 18 of FT, it says "Jumps longer than two parsecs are only permitted
>.... when a route of at least feeder magnitude can save a jump or more by
>using a jump-3 route."
>
>My question to the learned members is; does this entirely preclude a Jump-3
>Minor route ?  Many ships travelling "behind the claw" are J3 capable, and
>it would make sense to me that to a shipper, 'time is money'.  Ergo, I
>would have thought that running a J3 (if possible) would be better than a
>circuitous double J2 route.

It does not preclude a J-3 Minor route.  In fact, there's a "canonical"
example in the District 268 route map on pg.125 of FT.  (That map has lots 
of other things wrong with it.  For some reason it was significantly changed 
from the accurate map I submitted.)  In the text it says the route is 
maintained for "political purposes" by Trexalon.

The reason J-3 minor routes do not generally occur is that they are not 
economic for through traffic.  J-3 ships are slightly more expensive on a 
dton-freight/parsec basis than J-2 ships.  Since astrography generally makes 
J-2 the most convenient J-3 ships are somewhat specialized.  While the J-3 
ship would save money on the one J-3 hop of a multi-jump journey, it would 
*lose* money on all the other jumps.  

Some J-3 minor routes make sense and some don't.  Where there is enough 
traffic originating and terminating in a pair of worlds 3pc apart, feel free 
to have a J-3 minor route.  The rules in FT regarding route placement are, 
by necessity, somewhat abstracted.  The only really accurate way of doing it 
would be to take the roll of a megacorp, local line, and free trader and see 
how these economicly rational actors would behave in a given situation and 
then make route decisions based on the results of this simulation.

>I've just done the routes fro Pretoria/Deneb and have a J3 Minor Route that
>would otherwise follow a J3 Feeder then a J1 Minor to get to the target
>world.  I'm working on other Deneb s/sectors and will post them somewhere
>if anyone's interested.

Just please be sure you note in the accompanying documentation where you 
depart from the strict guidelines on things like J-3 minor routes.  That's 
what I did in making special notice of the J-3 route from Trexalon to Kwai 
Ching.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
Co-Author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #789
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Tuesday, June 29 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 790



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

RE: Yahoo/Geocities Warning
Re: CT Skills
Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning
RE: Yahoo/Geocities Warning
Re: THE IM: Girlie Marines That Wear (Battle) Dresses or the last word of the imperium
Re: Imperial Marines...
RE: Girlie Marines That Wear (Battle) Dresses
Re: Battle Dress
re: OT: Yahoo/Geocities warning
Re: FTL == time travel
Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...
RE: Shoot-outs (was TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)
Re: Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:43:58 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Yahoo/Geocities Warning

Ow!  Holy crap!  Glad I'm not on Yahoo/GeoCities.  Sometimes it "pays" to
have a pay-for-use site :)

Hey, anyone that's ejecting from Y/C, think about going to hosting service I
use, slip.net (www.slip.net).  I think they've got unlimited
storage/bandwidth/etc as low as about USD

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Kurt
> Feltenberger
> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 5:41 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: OT: Yahoo/Geocities Warning
>
>
> (Sorry to waste bandwidth, but this is important)
>
> Friends,
>
> Over the weekend someone brought up the Yahoo/Geocities merger
> and the new,
> revised Terms of Service.  Simply put, if you have any sites hosted by
> Yahoo/Geocities, you risk loosing control and ownership of the content and
> materials on your site, even if it is copywritten or trademarked.
>
> Here is a link to an article that goes into detail regarding the
> situation.
>  You may need to cut and paste it into your browser as it is a bit long.
>
> http://technews.netscape.com/computing/technews/newsitem/0,290,384
63,00.html
?pt.netscape.fd.hl.ne

Here is the relevant portion of the Yahoo/Geocities TOS that states the
changes:

>8. CONTENT SUBMITTED TO YAHOO
>
>By submitting Content to any Yahoo property, you automatically grant, or
>warrant that the owner of such Content has expressly granted, Yahoo the
>royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive and fully sublicensable
>right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate,
>create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display such Content
>(in whole or part) worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works in any
>form, media, or technology now known or later developed. You acknowledge
>that Yahoo does not pre-screen Content, but that Yahoo and its designees
>shall have the right (but not the obligation) in their sole discretion to
>refuse, edit, move or remove any Content that is publicly available via the
>Service. Without limiting the foregoing, Yahoo and its designees shall have
>the right to remove any Content that violates the TOS or is otherwise
>objectionable. You agree that you must evaluate, and bear all risks
>associated with, the use of any Content, including any reliance on the
>accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of such Content. In this regard, you
>acknowledge that you may not rely on any Content created by Yahoo or
>submitted to Yahoo, including without limitation information in Yahoo!
>Message Boards, Yahoo! Clubs, and in all other parts of the Service.

Note:  If you sign in using the new TOS, you will unfortuantely be bound by
them.

Free sites are nice, but now they are nice if you have nothing to loose.
Most of the larger free site hosts have similar or comprable Terms of
Service, so please re-read them and if you have any questions, either
contact the Host's help desk or pull your site and host it with your ISP or
with a pay for use site.



Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:29:58 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

> > Thnk you very much for informing me that fixing the drive when it breaks is
> > the engineer's job, navigating the ship from star to star is the navigator's
> > job, and piloting the ship is the pilot's job. I never would have figured
> > that out.

I did not mean for that to sound that sarcastic (just a 'lil), I should of added
a ;) or perhaps"<g,d&r>". I figure you know who is assigned these tasks.

> > If you would have deigned to try to understand my original point, perhaps
> > you wouldn't have needed to resort to base sarcasm. It is possible to roll
> > up a character that doesn't have a single ship-based skill.

Highly unlikely however.

> Hence, it is
> > quite difficult for him to be part of that fully crewed starship that you
> > allude to... which takes us back to square one, there'd be little reason for
> > him to be on the free trader in the first place, except to use his
> > specialized abilities when they're called for, and that means that in the
> > Third Imperium your average free trader must be packed like a Tokyo subway.

Never been on a Tokyo subway, but I assume they are too crowded to fix a jump
drive in. ;)
I do see free traders as more like submarines than the Millenium Falcon. Crowded,
bare, and perhaps a little stinky at times. T he Falcon has a crew of two, is
very clean, has nice walls, lights, etc. I don't see two people being all you
need to run an intersteller vessel.

> OK, your 'ship based' skills keep your boat flying.  Your *non* ship-based
> skills (weapons, Broker, Trader, Admin, Streetwise, etc) are what make and
> protect your money on the ground.  And IIRC, *ANYBODY* could be a steward on
> a ship, doesn't take Steward skill, they just screw up people's dinner orders
> a lot & the ship's laundry breaks down on them.  A *lot*.

Anybody can perform many of the skills listed, exceptions being perhaps
Battledress and other such skills. A score of one in Traveller(CT at least) means
a hell of a lot. Scores are hardly ever above four. Traveller is very grainy in
rating things like attributes, skills, planetary population, etc.

> Would I pay for a 'utility infielder' without hard ship skills (Pilot, Nav,
> Engineering, Gunnery)?  Depending on his skills, I might.  Give him Wheeled &
> Grav Vehicle, some decent Admin (2+), and I'd hire him on the spot to be my
> loadmaster & purser in flight.

Same here. If he is just handling paperwork and not actually buying and selling,
I'll hire at Admin 1 even, as long as he has a couple more interesting skills
(recruit comes to mind)

> He'd also be the guy I'd send to town to
> unload my speculative cargo and find the next load to slick out and make a
> cred or 3 on.

For this I would need Admin 2+ as well.

> Add a Handgun level, and he'd double as a security officer
> during flight, keep the biofreight from gettin too awful out of hand.

I hate biofreight, worse than passengers. Unpredictable. Give me computer parts
please.

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:30:25 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:

> (Sorry to waste bandwidth, but this is important)
>
> Friends,
>
> Over the weekend someone brought up the Yahoo/Geocities merger and the new,
> revised Terms of Service.  Simply put, if you have any sites hosted by
> Yahoo/Geocities, you risk loosing control and ownership of the content and
> materials on your site, even if it is copywritten or trademarked.
>
> Here is a link to an article that goes into detail regarding the situation.
>  You may need to cut and paste it into your browser as it is a bit long.
>
> http://technews.netscape.com/computing/technews/newsitem/0,290,38463,00.html
> ?pt.netscape.fd.hl.ne
>
> Here is the relevant portion of the Yahoo/Geocities TOS that states the
> changes:
>
> >8. CONTENT SUBMITTED TO YAHOO

[snip]


Yeeeooooowwwwww!!

Goodnight copyright.  Thats giving the farm away, lock, stock and barrel.
It looks like the intention is to allow them the ability to remove troublesome
content from their webservers, potentially a prudent move given liability
laws that 'could' make them liable for content of those who publish on their
with them.  But they couldn't do that without taking total control.  So
what might have been originally intended as a legal move to protect the
company, ends up being a wholesale transfer of copyrights.


Essentially, they're saying that their servers are like chalkboard in
public.  You can write what you want, but its their chalkboard,
and they can take, sell, edit, destroy, copy, etc., anything that
appears on their chalkboard.  You post anything at all, and you're
giving it away.  Well, at least the issue is known.  I'd doubt they'd
ever actual touch anything you post.  But they want the full arsenal
available in case there ever is a problem.

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:46:43 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: Yahoo/Geocities Warning

Sorry, my finger slipped.  As I was saying, slip.net has unlimited storage
and traffic for as low as about USD$12-15 last time I saw.  It is possible
to exceed the limits of the "unlimited" policy, but you've gotta' be
generating a WHOLE lot of traffic, and I don't think there's a trav site out
there that generates THAT much traffic :)

Best,
Jesse



> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Kurt
> Feltenberger
> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 5:41 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: OT: Yahoo/Geocities Warning
>
>
> (Sorry to waste bandwidth, but this is important)
>
> Friends,
>
> Over the weekend someone brought up the Yahoo/Geocities merger
> and the new,
> revised Terms of Service.  Simply put, if you have any sites hosted by
> Yahoo/Geocities, you risk loosing control and ownership of the content and
> materials on your site, even if it is copywritten or trademarked.
>
> Here is a link to an article that goes into detail regarding the
> situation.
>  You may need to cut and paste it into your browser as it is a bit long.
>
> http://technews.netscape.com/computing/technews/newsitem/0,290,384
63,00.html
?pt.netscape.fd.hl.ne

Here is the relevant portion of the Yahoo/Geocities TOS that states the
changes:

>8. CONTENT SUBMITTED TO YAHOO
>
>By submitting Content to any Yahoo property, you automatically grant, or
>warrant that the owner of such Content has expressly granted, Yahoo the
>royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive and fully sublicensable
>right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate,
>create derivative works from, distribute, perform and display such Content
>(in whole or part) worldwide and/or to incorporate it in other works in any
>form, media, or technology now known or later developed. You acknowledge
>that Yahoo does not pre-screen Content, but that Yahoo and its designees
>shall have the right (but not the obligation) in their sole discretion to
>refuse, edit, move or remove any Content that is publicly available via the
>Service. Without limiting the foregoing, Yahoo and its designees shall have
>the right to remove any Content that violates the TOS or is otherwise
>objectionable. You agree that you must evaluate, and bear all risks
>associated with, the use of any Content, including any reliance on the
>accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of such Content. In this regard, you
>acknowledge that you may not rely on any Content created by Yahoo or
>submitted to Yahoo, including without limitation information in Yahoo!
>Message Boards, Yahoo! Clubs, and in all other parts of the Service.

Note:  If you sign in using the new TOS, you will unfortuantely be bound by
them.

Free sites are nice, but now they are nice if you have nothing to loose.
Most of the larger free site hosts have similar or comprable Terms of
Service, so please re-read them and if you have any questions, either
contact the Host's help desk or pull your site and host it with your ISP or
with a pay for use site.



Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:36:29 -0400
From: "Bob Sanders" <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: THE IM: Girlie Marines That Wear (Battle) Dresses or the last word of the imperium

As many others have all ready done, I will toss my .2cr into the pile.

I have to agree with Mr. Berry on much of what he wrote.  IMTU the IM are
THE toughest bunch around, and are the only ground force that acts as the
will of the emperor.

What we all need to remember is that in the 1100's the imperium is big.
very big.  REALLY REALLY BIG.  SUPER SIZED BIG.  For any small action the
local forces, rulers, nobles, etc... will have many many many options.
Mercs, local forces, army units, scouts, noble troops, starport secforces,
etc...  enough people running around with guns to scare anyone from doing
something wrong.  However, when the s**t hits the fan, you need something
that will shock the entire sector into recognizing that the imperium has the
final word on any dispute.  When the I'renes (and to whom ever came up with
this term, good job)hit, little is left standing.  It is not important who
was right or wrong, only that the Emperor has decided to make a statement.
The only way for a very small force in the very big imperium to make that
much of a statement is with overwhelming force with something unique.

I see that the I'renes are the only force in the imperium to be equipped
100% uniform.  EVERY unit has the same equipment.  And that includes BD. And
just like every marine today is trained with a rifle, so is every IM trained
with BD.

Here is a little sample from my battledress rules.  Please understand that
99% of my games never have BD in them.  It would be like seeing an M1
today...  You may see one on the news once and awhile, or if you go on to a
base, but never around town. I hoppled these rules together from several
sources for some players that wanted to try out BD in the game.  What they
found out was that unless you come in with a completely integrated force
structure, with support, a well equipped army can defeat you...  just having
a couple of suits was not enough. But that is another story.

BATTLEDRESS DATA
OVERVIEW:
Battledress is a full coverage exoskeleton with its own power supply and
servos.  The first suits of Battledress appear at TL-13.
In order to use Battledress, the wearer must undergo extensive training and
in some cases, surgery.  Because of the great expense involved in preparing
and training someone in the use of Battledress, the warriors are far more
valuable then their suits.  Only the most highly qualified are selected for
assignment to Battledress units.
The Armor Panels on each suit are replaceable, and are mounted to an
internal structural frame.  The frame provides all joints, hydroelectronic
mounts, and equipment mounts, as well as structural strength.  The size and
strength of the frame determines the suit's combat load and the weight of
armor that may be carried.
One of the primary limitations on Battledress is that its great weight can
collapse normal floors and structures which are not designed for heavy
loads.  Because of this, three different classes of Battledress have been
developed; Heavy, used for field combat; Medium, used in cities; Light,
which is for use on board starships and low-intensity conflicts.  Some suits
are able to be modified for different classes.  With the addition, or
subtraction, of Armor Panels, the suit can be adapted for any environment.
Most suits, however, are developed for a separate purpose.

Battlepack Bays:  The primary weapons of Battledress are Battlepacks.  These
weapon systems are carried in Battlepack Bays on the rear of the suit.  The
number of bays available varies for each suit.  Each Battlepack weapon has a
number of bays required and is shown on the Weapons List.

Heavy Battledress can sometimes carry two light Battlepacks rather than one
heavy battlepack.  If carrying two Battlepacks each must be aimed and fired
separately unless they are linked together.  If two Battlepacks are linked
they have to be the same type of weapon system.  The To Hit roll is combined
into one roll, but the damage is kept separate.

Auxiliary Packs:  Some suits have spaces for Auxiliary Packs, on each limb a
nd on the body.  These are small, semi-independent weapon systems and
equipment packages which enhance the ability and efficiency of Battledress.

All Battledress suits have the standard Equipment listed in the Battledress
Systems.  The only variation is the number of Body Aux Packs.  All suits
have at least two Shoulder, two Thigh, two Abdomen, two Chest Aux Packs,.


BATTLEDRESS
Imperial:  The Imperium came out with one of the first suits of Battledress,
and have followed it with a long succession of improvements.

BD13:  Due to the high cost and training involved, the BD13 was designed
specifically for supporting Non-Powered Infantry.  It is slow and cumbersome
by current levels, but still packs a surprising punch.  Effective Str. is
27.  The BD13 has 8 Battlepack Bays and one additional Arm Aux Bay.  The
Operator must have surgery in order use the suit.

BD14 Series:  Built in three different models; Light, Medium, and Heavy, the
BD14 was a substantial improvement over the BD13.  The suits were for the
first time, designed to operate in groups, and fielded as large combat
units.

BD14H:  The Heavy version, the BD14H has 8 Battlepack Bays, 6 additional Aux
Bays (2 Chest, 2 Abdomen, 2 Arm), and an effective Str. of 40.

BD14M:  The Medium class of the series.  The BD14M has 4 Battlepack Bays and
3 additional Aux Bays (2 chest, 1 Arm).  Effective Str. is 30.

BD14L:  The Light variant of the series, the BD14L has 4 Battlepack Bays and
an effective Str. of 18.

BD15 Series:  Identical to the BD14 Series, only with more armor and
increasingly ease of use.

MBD15 Series:  The Imperial Marines, with their unique mission, recognized
the need to have a force that could rapidly change its configuration.  The
result is the MBD15, a suit that with the addition or subtraction of Armor
Panels can change from Heavy to Medium to Light.

MBD15 Heavy Configuration:  8 Battlepack Bays, 10 additional Aux Bays (4
Chest, 2 Abdomen, 2 Thigh, 2 Arm), and an effective Str. of 45.

MBD15 Medium Configuration:  4 Battlepack Bays, 3 additional Aux Bays (2
Chest, 1 Arm), and an effective Str. of 60.  The Str. is higher due to the
loss of Armor Panels on the same Frame.

MBD15 Light Configuration:  4 Battlepack Bays, no additional Aux Bays, and
an effective Str. of 70.

CD14&15:  The Imperial Army and Navy recognized the need for the crews of
combat vehicles, landing craft, and small ships to have some protection.
The result is the Crewdress, a light form of Battledress, based on the same
technology, but much lighter.  The CD14&15 have no Aux Packs and can carry
no Battlepacks.  The effective Str. is 15.

CBD14&15:  The Colonial Battledress is a cheap alternative to the high
priced Imperial versions.  It comes with only 2 Battlepack Bays, and half
the normal Aux Bays and one Arm Bay.  Its effective Str. is 18.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:41:47 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

>Yes I did, and I also stated that because you are issued with something does
>not mean you always use it. [...]


Seems a shame, what with said equipment costing half a MCr or so. An awful
lot like sending tank gunner out into combat a without his tank.

One of the fundamental issues here seems to be how BD is envisioned. Some
seem to see it as a high-tech, armored jumpsuit that takes little skill to
use properly, and others see it as a specialized vehicle that requires
great skill to use properly.

Battledress ain't like a set of heavy clothes. It *does* take a skill to
use properly, and to be *really* professional in it you are going to have
to spend a lot of your training time suited up.

Thinking about it in game terms, every skill level or character point you
put into battledress skill is a skill level or character point that doesn't
go to something else. IIRC, any actions that you take in battledress are
(more or less) limited to your skill level in battledress. So it would
behoove combat personnel to have lots of ability in battledress -- in other
words, specialized training.

Of course, if battledress *is* a highly specialized vehicle it seems seems
somewhat ridiculous to say that every Imperial Marine learns the skill.
After all, not every joe in an air force learns how to fly a fighter, nor
does every member of an army know how to operate a tank. What about IM
support personnel? What about marine fliers for interface craft or drivers
for grav armor and artillery? Why waste time training them in battledress
when they could better spend the time training in their own specialty?

As written, the IM don't seem very autonomous. Rather, they look to me like
highly specialized shock troops for the Imperial Navy. I guess that this
might be a better model than the U.S. Marine model that a lot of people
seem to be equating them with.


>I have taken up far to much bandwidth and to much of your time with this
>issue.  I am sorry for that, but I see indications that the majority of
>posters do not want to see IM's BD-bound.


Hmm. I don't remember it actually being put to a vote, so I'd be reticent
to say a majority felt either way about the matter. I personally though
Doug's piece was terrific.

In any event I don't think this has been a waste of bandwidth -- to me,
it's been entertaining, informative, and timely. My next game, while not
Traveller, has the PCs as troops in battledress (MARS guys in HAAM suits).

Ciao,

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 11:46:32 -0400
From: "Bob Sanders" <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: RE: Girlie Marines That Wear (Battle) Dresses

"Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com> wrote:

>The answer to a battlesuited marine - a HEAP grenade...

IMTU several things would happen, the BD computer would ID the source of the
grenade, and target return fire on command by the operator, while several
defensive systems would automatically act to neutralize the grenade...  AND
if it did hit, it would not penetrate the suit.  It may damage a system one
the suit.

I have changed the AV of BD, and pen of weapon systems.  My games tend not
to have too much gunfighting in them, as people die very fast when shots
fly.

Bob Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 08:51:16 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

> > Wasn't a high enough level of Vac Suit skill (2? 3?) originally considered
> > sufficient for using battle dress? That would be along the lines that
> > "Vac Suit" was a generic skill with protective gear, and that Battle Dress
> > is an armored form of an advanced hostile environment suit - Battle Dress
> > skill would be the result of an advanced and specialized training course
> > focused on the capabilities of BD.
> >
> > Thus a crack Vac Suit user might be good with HUD's, backup systems,
> > user-friendly sensors and even Exoskeleton-assists, but wouldn't be very
> adept with things like HUD-linked targeting computers or BD repair.

I agree with everything except Exoskeleton assist repair. That is only on BD,
isn't it?

>
> > A character with Battle Dress skill - a much rarer animal - would have
> > most or all of the Vac Suit skill knowledge, would know how to maintain
> > BD, might know some unusual tricks for getting more out of BD, and
> > might even know useful things about wrecking other people's BD.
> >
> > Of course, a skill with the FGMP's would probably cover the targeting
> computer for the Vac Suit guy.

Interesting point, FGMP's always come with tageting computers? Where are my
LBB's? ;)

> > I may have Vac Suit as BD skill confused in my memory - my CT books
> > are not at the desk I'm working from now.

I don't see how one could argue against using one skill for the other in areas
that require the same technical know-how. Learn to set your VCR clock and you
can probably do the same on your microwave.

> I recall something along these lines too, that a high enough vacc-suit skill
> allowed you to use any environmental suit, including BD at a lower
> standard(?),  I don't recall the reverse being the effect though?

Yeesh, that sounds scary. Do the Exoskeleton -assists have an "off" setting?
Battledress requires alot of traing to avoid smashing things on accident. I
would think that BD skill could be used for Vac Suit, but an arbiter could
convince me otherwise for his universe by saying BD is more user-friendly or
even completly automatic for some of the basics, rendering BD users somewhat
pampered. But able to crush their enemies!

> If BD was
> a "super vacc-suit" I'd imagine you could automatically posses vacc-suit
> skill, but it never worked that way from the rules I remember?

Hmm, maybe Vac Suit should be a prerequisite?

BZA

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:00:30 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: OT: Yahoo/Geocities warning

Bloo wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
Goodnight copyright.  Thats giving the farm away, lock, stock and barrel.
It looks like the intention is to allow them the ability to remove troublesome
content from their webservers, potentially a prudent move given liability
laws that 'could' make them liable for content of those who publish on their
with them.  But they couldn't do that without taking total control.  So
what might have been originally intended as a legal move to protect the
company, ends up being a wholesale transfer of copyrights.
>>>>>>>>>>>
That's almost like saying that my local TV station owns the copyright to
_The Wizard of Oz_, since they got to broadcast it a time or two.

I'm surprised that Yahoo and Geocities need to own the material to
censor it. All they should need, as part of their usage agreement,
is a notice that certain subjects are taboo, a notice that the poster is
responsible for what he puts on the site, and a notice that the service 
provider reserves the right to terminate service based on certain criteria.

Maybe they thought it was simpler to say, "If you post it, we own it.
Since we own it, we can take it down or leave it up at whim."

If I were a Yahoo/Geocities user, I'd be worried about some vice
president reading their service agreement and getting the wonderful
idea of harvesting the entire web community for saleable content. Want
to see your web page's logo on a T-shirt, with you forbidden from using it?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:11:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel

Howdy!

Rob Brady wrote:
> At 03:11 PM 6/28/99 -0500, Steven Bonneville wrote:
> >Rob Brady wrote:
> >> but once again the only way to violate causality in the
> >> Traveller universe is jump from a system that has a velocity
> >> of 0, to a system that has a velocity of near C (.82C is what
> >
> >Let's try that again, but this time we'll spend the three hours at Remulak
> >accelerating to 600 km/s (0.002 c) relative to Earth with our 6G drive. 
> >Elapsed trip time as measured at Earth is then
> >
> >  T == 20(2/1020 - 0.002) + 0.000342 == -0.000442 year, or -3.87 hours.
> >
> >...so, the ship ends up at Earth almost four hours *before* it left!

Unless, of course, the jump takes at least four hours longer...in ship
time...
> 
> Thanks a lot Steve! I have been hoping that someone with a better grasp
> than myself would come along and confirm or deny. I didn't realize that 
> such a small amount of acceleration would be needed though.
> 
> You seem to confirm my uninformed opinion of this though - if the week 
> that a jump takes is measured in _system_ time, there isn't much you
> can do to time travel, but if the week is measured in _ship_ time,
> you can break it a lot easier than I thought!
> 
One can simply assert that a jump will always take long enough to avoid
this problem from occurring...

yours,
Michael
- -- 
Michael and MJ Houghton   | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net         | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA            | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
                          | http://www.radix.net/~herveus/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 17:29:39 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...

Yet another BD thread, ho hum :)

The trouble with the image of BD Marines in the GT universe is the
inconsistency with the previous canon.  In CT / MT / TNE, BD was good armour
but was still vulnerable to hefty, man-portable, slugthrowers etc.  It
enhanced strength, and gave effectively unlimited endurance.  In the actual
GT book, the two types of BD mentioned are in this same mould. PD 4 DR 240
tops...

Then came Star Mercs and the horrendous Commando BD.  DR1200!!, speed
70mph!!!...  Whuh?!?

Let me get this straight... You want me to put my legs in here while it runs
at 70mph? Human limbs (even when being moved by an external device rather
than under their own power) just aren't designed for that.  If my legs
aren't in the BD legs, then I'm just the Pilot/Driver of a very small Mech',
and I want to play Traveller not Mechwarrior.

Also, the max damage for an (Gurps) FGMP-12 is 8d6*20, with no armour
divider, for a max of 960.  Hmmm, BD that is *invulnerable* to the best FGMP
in the Imperium.... I don't think we're in canon any more, Toto!

I can see the situation now...
"Stop using those Californium Rounds, or we send in the Marines...."
"Send 'em in, at least we've got something that'll hurt them...."

<sigh>

Matt

Matthew Bond
mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- --------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
.To run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:34:02 -0400
From: "Slack, Andy" <andy.slack@gb.unisys.com>
Subject: RE: Shoot-outs (was TL's of Star Wars and Star Trek)

Michel Vaillancourt writes:
>It really depends on what type of game you are running and how
important the fight scenes are."<

Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca> wrote:
>	Absolutely. My players enjoy a good shoot-out from time 
>	to time, and the first type is usually more fun and lets
>	them get out their aggressive urges. The one-shot-one-kill
>	can be satisfying as well, depending on which side the 
>	players are on!

Ran a couple PCs with a platoon of BD-wearing, PGMP-toting NPCs
up against the Chamax Horde once. They were feeling pretty good
until reports started coming over the tacnet...

"I'm out."
"I've got five left."
"Marines, fire by reduction, go!"

That was when they called for transport out.

Andy

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:31:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...

Matthew Bond writes:
> Then came Star Mercs and the horrendous Commando BD.  DR1200!!, speed
> 70mph!!!...  Whuh?!?

Ugh.  Commando battledress was never seen in the Star Mercs playtest (actually,
none of the vehicles are, which could have made problems with all of them; for
example, I suspect I hsould have designed the Astrin as an IFV with a lot more
armor and firepower, rather than as a basic APC).  For the most part, one is
best off ignoring the commando battledress in Star Mercs.
>
> I can see the situation now...
> "Stop using those Californium Rounds, or we send in the Marines...."
> "Send 'em in, at least we've got something that'll hurt them...."

Nah.  This wasn't clear in the stats, but DR is _squared_ against concussion. 
6d*2000 won't scratch DR 1200 (actually, it might cause the frame to
disintegrate, I don't remember how many body hp it has, and hp^2 will
disintegrate the frame).  The Intrepid has enough armor to survive a direct hit
with a kiloton nuclear weapon, though the frame will break apart at only about
0.2 kilotons.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #790
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Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 30 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 791



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning
Re: OT: Yahoo/Geocities Warning 
re: Battle Dress
Re: Imperial Marines...
RE: Xenobiology 101
3d-space
RE: Battle Dress
Copyright problem with Yahoo web sites
Leaving Geocities
Batledress, Hoorah!
Re: OT: Yahoo/Geocities warning
Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning
Re: Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...
Re: Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 09:50:14 -0700
From: Hypercleats <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:

> (Sorry to waste bandwidth, but this is important)
>
> Friends,
>
> Over the weekend someone brought up the Yahoo/Geocities merger and the new,
> revised Terms of Service.  Simply put, if you have any sites hosted by
> Yahoo/Geocities, you risk loosing control and ownership of the content and
> materials on your site, even if it is copywritten or trademarked.
>

I read somewhere that "If creativity is a field, copyright is the fence."

Can TOS that are contrary to previous copyrights really be legal? This sounds
crazy, must be true. ;)

BTW, I looked everywhere to find out what ROFLMAO means, but haven't found an
answer yet. Any help?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:50:35 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: OT: Yahoo/Geocities Warning 

> BTW, I looked everywhere to find out what ROFLMAO means, but haven't found an
> answer yet. Any help?

"Rolling On Floor Laughing My Ass Off".

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:24:12 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Battle Dress

Hypercleats wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I agree with everything except Exoskeleton assist repair. That is only on 
BD, isn't it?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I'm thinking of some specialized hostile operations suits, such as one
might use in heavy gravity, deep ocean or nasty weather. I recall 
a White Dwarf (?) scenario that involved a processing plant in a gas
giant atmosphere, where the winds and high gravity made a civilian
variety of BD almost a requirement for the maintenance crews.

Hypercleats again:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Interesting point, FGMP's always come with tageting computers? Where
are my LBB's? ;)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The FGMP's that hook up to Battle Dress seem to - they include a
socket on the suit, part of the firing procedure is to plug in the gun. It
gives you a targeting reticle in your HUD, status readouts, and IIRC
even helped you get your BD into one of the predefined stable firing
stances so you wouldn't knock yourself on your metal-encased keister.

It may be that only the BD versions had integral firing computers, while
the grav-stabilized FGMP's used simpler sights. Remember, you can't
use a standard optical sight with a BD (or even Vac Suit) helmet on - 
you can't put your eye up to the optics. Even an ACR or Guass Rifle
intended for BD troops would need some kind of targeting link to the HUD.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:48:23 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

- -----Original Message-----
From: The Roc <roc@kewl.com.au>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 3:39 AM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...


>Well, like my son used to read GI-Joe, how they always had the biggest and
>badest stuff at their disposal, sounds very similar.  Like the current
>generation of comics he likes to read, where everything is available and
>almost common to the characters.  You know, that sort of thing.


You do realize the book that Doug is planning to do is on marines who are in
current service, right? It would be more akin to, to use the pilot analogy
again, American fighter pilots flying fighter craft. It's their job to use
the biggest and baddest stuff.

>Yes I did, and I also stated that because you are issued with something
does
>not mean you always use it.

Fair enough. Again, I think this is a matter of how we see battle dress used
and as I said, it doesn't appear there's common ground between us.

>I don't see an IM in a pair of issued jocks,
>singlet, dress uniform under fatigues under urban cam under desert cam
under
>jungle cam under his BD.  Mission specifics tend to state what a troopie
>takes into the field.  If a mission specific says don't take BD, then I'm
>sure the marine won't take BD?  What's hard to work out about that?  I was
>issued a rifle but never had to carry it about all the time.  Sometimes I
>even had to carry a GPMG or a SMG instead, even though my rifle was
>officially issued to me, it was on occassion exchanged for other weapons.


Fair enough. You're just seeing things quite differently. I see Battle Dress
as integral to Impie marines. You seem to see it as something that the
soldier is issued, but may never put it on. Ostensibly because he's got to
prove himself to be a real snake eater to use it.

>Now from your military experience, were you lumped with only one piece of
>equipment all the time or did you to find you had to swap?  Or is the
>Australian army the only one that does this?


Alas, I have no military experience to say one way or another. To the best
of my knowledge though, folks like fighter pilots are usually given
airplanes when they go into the field, and tank crews are usually given
tanks.

>I don't think my traveller universe is canon, I am saying that CT is, oh, I
>don't know... more canon than GT?

Well, I'm not going to prod you and turn this into a potential flamewar. You
did make it quite clear that established Traveller canon included the
concept that marines had to work to get battle dress skill, let alone battle
dress.

>I did bow to the CT canon about the
>maines in the JTAS article, but I'm also saying that just because you are
>issued a piece of equipment, doesn't mean you are compled by every
situation
>to use it.  But again, I draw from history/real life.  BD is kit, you don't
>have dress BD (but then again you might), you don't have KP-BD or
mess-BD...
>you have it, but the situation does not demand you use it.  Certain actions
>are like that.


I also draw from history/real life. You keep referring to like it's some
sort of magic wand that you can wave over things, as if merely saying that
*you* are drawing from history and real life gives my side of the discussion
less validity. I'm not saying that to fire you up, but it seems to be the
case.

I assure you, I also draw from history/real life. It would appear that Doug
does too. You're not the only one who does. It's not a matter of real life
and history. The problem is that the real life and historical parallels we
see are entirely different.

Pilots don't have dress planes, or KP-planes or mess-planes. You have a
plane, but the situation does not always demand you use it.

>That's the part where when you roll your character, he still performs
raids,
>CI's, PA's, etc., yet doesn't seem to roll a single BD skill or even a
>vacc-suit skill...

Fair enough. As I've already said, I have certain problems with that method
of character generation. It can give results that are not consistent with
written canon. I'm not sure if I can agree that if it doesn't match a
specific character generation system then it's not canon.

>Not all marines get the skill.  In my opinion, it is not
>a gimme as it is going to be in GT, thus you have to work to earn the
>skill... don't work hard enough and you don't get the skill (it's like an
>abstract interpretation of an abstract rule if you will, like puting in
>words other than "unlucky enough not to roll it").


Fair enough. Do keep in mind that, as I've already said, Doug's book is
about Imperial marines in Imperial service. Even in Classic Traveller, it
would be difficult at best to give out skills for such a campaign by random
chance.

"Well, you've got battle dress, but you two don't. Fred, you'll be hitting a
hot dirtside LZ in your battle dress and a plasma rifle. You two guys have
vac suits and combat rifles."

>I am not saying that if a marine had the chance to don BD for a combat
>situation, he wouldn't, one always equips oneself to the highest standard
>when one has a choice.  What I am trying to say is, that a marine would
>probably be put into certain combat situations where he was not permitted
to
>use his issued BD.  I see the IM's as a flexible arm of the military able
to
>perform to a high standard regardless of what situation and equipment is
>present.  I do not see a marine as being less capable than an infantry
grunt
>out of his suit.


Well, in composing this message I took a break and walked into the living
room where I found the May-June 1999 issue of Army RD&A face down. On the
back there's this picture, a collection of concept art. Above it is the
phrase "Force XXI." It shows various pieces of equipment, but the
centerpiece of the image is an infantryman. His entire body is sealed inside
a suit. He's got some sort of device strapped to his left forearm. On his
back is some sort of high-tech equipment. His face is completely covered by
a sort of visor and helmet, and in the image we can see that there is a
targetting HUD projected onto it. He's got a nasty looking gun with some
sort of double scope.

From what I know of the Force XXI program, it's an attempt to create a new
military doctrine based on the new technologies that are available to the
military. The new combat rifle, for example, will most likely debut as part
of a suit not unlike the one the soldier is wearing. If the theory becomes
practice, the soldier will be able to use the HUD in conjunction with the
rifle to find the range to a target and make sure that his grenade explodes
where the target is. In and of itself, that's an entirely new skill that no
infantryman has ever needed to know before. That's only one part of the
suit's utility, apparently, the suit will venture into territory that you
seem to claim is comic bookish. This will not supplant the infantryman's
usefulness without the suit entirely, but it might very well start such a
trend. In theory, the soldier's not expected to survive without the suit. It
makes the assumption that the battlefields of the 21st century will likely
include contaminants of all sorts: biological, chemical, radioactive. What
kind of new doctrine such a suit will usher in, if any, is unclear now. The
suit is still in the concept stage. However, we're on the verge of seeing
the very first suit of "combat armor," and who knows where it's going to
take us.

It's gospel to me that the more we rely on technology, the less we'll be
able to do without it. I know you're getting tired of the discussion, but
I'm going to step off of the pilot angle and propose one last scenario...
from history ;)

Imagine on one side there's a group of German soldiers from WWI. On the
other side is a group of late 18th century British regulars. Who would you
lay money on? The British regulars were historically renowned for their
abilities. They had an excellent reputation. The German WWI soldiers were
also renowned for their battlefield prowess. My money would be with the
Germans.

On the other hand, let's change the experiment. Suddenly, the German
soldiers are issued Brown Bess muskets instead of their rifles and machine
guns. For the sake of argument, we'll even say that they've been trained to
some extent with the guns, but the bulk of their . The Germans don't look
like such a sure bet anymore, do they? In fact, most bookies, if given the
proper information, would probably favor the British regulars.

It has nothing to do with how impressive the fighting force's record is. It
has more to do with the training, skills and experience the fighting force
has and where the bulk of the training, skills and experiences happens to
be.

>Marines by (any canon) tradition I imagine, are more proud and capable than
>a standard infantryman.  No that of course is just my take on it remember.


Fair enough.

>Pilots are considered elite in their own right, and you are relegating
>marines to the same status as a pilot.  A pilot is still a fighting man,
but
>not a "fighting man" if you know what I mean.

No. I do understand what you mean.

>Your take is making a marine
>a pilot type fighting man, not a blood and guts, in amongst the thick of
it,
>smell the enemy's urine as he dies kind of fighting man that I thought most
>players imaged an IM to be... he is now a pilot of a suit.  Sure, he's
still
>in the think of it, but take away his suit and he has little training to
>survive on a battle field.


Because the battlefield won't be one of the past, it'll be one of the
future.

>the wearer ejects from the suit and where capable, is still a fit and
>fighting ground trooper acting in no fashion different from a regular
>infantry man.


That seems to be the way the world is going in real life. Ever since the
first cavemen figured out that they could sharped a stick or make a flint
knife this has been the case mankind has had to rely on technology. This is
not modern, it's ancient. Charioteers, Longbow men, native americans in the
role of light cavalry. Like you, I can call on history for examples. History
is full of specialized soldiers who were feared and respected by their
enemies but who were not as effective without the tools they had trained,
had skill with and had experience with.

>Obviously, it's okay by me and probably everyone else, if your marine is a
>pilot-type fighting man, but I don't think it should be forced upon every
>other player by a resource book that they have to have pilot-type fighting
>men too.

<Shrug> It's unavoidable when a setting or background reaches a certain size
that every single element of the background isn't going to appeal to
everybody. The Traveller Universe codes at the bottom of posts to the lists
were a lighthearted attempt to deal with this concept during (if I remember
correctly) the great automation debate. Whenever any changes (or imagined
changes) are proposed on the list there's always a "smacking around" period
of tension, with different opinions of how the Official Traveller Universe
should be.

I've traditionally been the one being smacked around mind you ;)

The problem is that canon is not written by one person. It's a creative
collaborative effort by many people. There *are* contradictions in it here
and there. That's inevitable for anything that's lasted for 20 years.

Thirty years from now the folks playing Traveller might look back at this
debate and say, "Sheez! Everybody knows that the Heavy Armored Infantry in
real life can't even be seperated from their suits! How could anybody be as
backwards as these two guys."

>If this is not the case (that the resource book is not forcing all
>IM's into suits for ALL actions), then I hope it will reflect the fact
>somewhere in the text that some actions do not require them to be marine
>pilots of suits, by suits not being required in all combat situations.


The resource book isn't forcing anything on anybody. There are resources
such as the Traveller mailing list where you can ask what other people think
of products. Most game stores allow people to browse through their books
before buying them.

I can't read minds, but I suspect that Doug submitted his proposal to the
list for the kind of feedback that we are now giving as we type to each
other. It's going to help him to temper and forge the work he's writing. He
may take my comments under advisement, he may take yours, or Mr. Thrash's,
or anybody else's. He may press on with his own vision and ignore all
comments. That's what helping to shape a universe is about.

Nobody's forcing anything on anybody here.

>I have taken up far to much bandwidth and to much of your time with this
>issue.  I am sorry for that, but I see indications that the majority of
>posters do not want to see IM's BD-bound.


<shrug> I've seen no indications of the sort one way or another. I've seen
people weigh in on both sides. Then I've also seen people way in on one side
with reservations, and then I've seen others prod Doug about specific points
and what they feel is right or wrong with it, but I haven't seen a landslide
of opinion one way or the other yet.

However, you haven't taken up too much of my time. I've enjoyed the
conversation. I don't think that either of us managed to "win" and I think
continued discussion of the broad points would be useless. I see battle
dress one way, you see it another way. I didn't really set out to win. I'd
never really thought much one way or another about the Marines, and this
discussion has allowed me to fit them into my own Traveller universe more
effectively. So, don't worry about taking up my time. I'll manage. ;)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:58:01 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Xenobiology 101

Walter Smith writes:
<snipped>
"If we did all our reproduction with a specialized tube that 
stuck out of our foreheads, and did nothing but copulative 
and reproductive functions, would the human race be so 
inclined to see sex as "dirty"?"

	Quite possibly. We have only scratched the surface of
	the behaviours of other organisms with simpler
	minds, and which we can study with less bias, so I'm
	not about to say that our reproductive/excretory
	organs have not engendered psychological problems. On
	the other hand, I tend to think not.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:59:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: 3d-space

>WOW!
>Can you tell me how to take three points on a grid and translate it into
>bearing
>and mark?
>
>"William F. Hostman" wrote:
>
>> To find distance from a to be with 3d coordinates:

I'll do it, but not tonight.... Shall I do it as a small application? ;-)
If I do, I'll post it to my web site (C++ source and a mac application)

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 12:29:58 -0700
From: Jay.Alverson@phs.com
Subject: RE: Battle Dress

What kind of sensors (in battle dress) do GM's out there use?  I'm an old
Classic Traveller player just picking up.

I assume IR (or FLIR), UV,

what about enivronment checks ?( gas, poisons, corrosives, for non-suited
civilians nearby), sound or radar imaging?  Others???

Thanks...


> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Walter Smith [SMTP:SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU]
> Sent:	Tuesday, June 29, 1999 10:24 AM
> To:	'TML'
> Subject:	re: Battle Dress
> 
> Hypercleats wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I agree with everything except Exoskeleton assist repair. That is only on 
> BD, isn't it?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> I'm thinking of some specialized hostile operations suits, such as one
> might use in heavy gravity, deep ocean or nasty weather. I recall 
> a White Dwarf (?) scenario that involved a processing plant in a gas
> giant atmosphere, where the winds and high gravity made a civilian
> variety of BD almost a requirement for the maintenance crews.
> 
> Hypercleats again:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Interesting point, FGMP's always come with tageting computers? Where
> are my LBB's? ;)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> The FGMP's that hook up to Battle Dress seem to - they include a
> socket on the suit, part of the firing procedure is to plug in the gun. It
> gives you a targeting reticle in your HUD, status readouts, and IIRC
> even helped you get your BD into one of the predefined stable firing
> stances so you wouldn't knock yourself on your metal-encased keister.
> 
> It may be that only the BD versions had integral firing computers, while
> the grav-stabilized FGMP's used simpler sights. Remember, you can't
> use a standard optical sight with a BD (or even Vac Suit) helmet on - 
> you can't put your eye up to the optics. Even an ACR or Guass Rifle
> intended for BD troops would need some kind of targeting link to the HUD.
> 
> Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:49:53 +0200
From: Volker Greimann <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Copyright problem with Yahoo web sites

At 00:04 29.06.99 -0500, you wrote:
>On 06/28/99 at 10:25 PM,  Paul Kerby <ybrekp@mtco.com> said:
>
>>And aren't they in the middle of a merger with Geocities???
>
>Yes, they are, and this new Term of Service Agreement applies to *all*
current GeoCities pages. As I understand it you can't get to your web space
even to take it down without accepting the agreement, and then you've
agreed to it. ;-/

Yes, you can! Just log into the geocities ftp-server with you name and
password.
That should get you around this idiocy.

BTW: As far as I know they can´t just go and claim everything as their own
suddenly when
they feel like it. This is not the deal i signed when joining geocities.
As deal is a deal and without my consent, they cannot suddenly change that. 
So if i don´t react at all, i won´t be bound by this as silence can´t be
interpreted as a willful action. And you need at least that for a new
contract. 
Volker
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Volker A. Greimann --- http://www.greimann.de --- volker@greimann.de

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 21:34:47 +0000
From: "Carlos Alos-Ferrer" <Carlos.Alos-Ferrer@univie.ac.at>
Subject: Leaving Geocities

After reading the TOS in Yahoo/Geocities, I find that this is nothing 
to joke about. Those folks effectively own whatever you 
put in your pages there.

I am not ready to accept that, so I have temporarily left Geocities 
and wrote an email to them (to Yahoo, from their "Info" page; 
comments@geocities.com no longer works) asking to remove that Clause 
8. I humbly recommend other homesteaders to do the same.

My pages are now here, in otherwise unused space at my professional 
account:

http://mailbox.univie.ac.at/~a4411may/trav

Including the Geonee Online Sourcebook and the Beyond The Extents 
Campaign Homepage.

Carlos Alos-Ferrer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:24:41 +1000
From: dadams@parracity.nsw.gov.au
Subject: Batledress, Hoorah!

The problem I have with every Marine having a Battle dress and FMPG-14 is
actually the training.

Lets face it, while the basics of warfare can be learned during basic
training, *effective* use of these equipment takes years to learn.

   A person out of boot camp, armed with a BD and fusion gun is as much a
danger to himself and to  his team, as much as he is to the enemy. Green
troopers will statistcly break quicker than veteren troops, and would not
focus their fire power effectively as they would if they had some
experience.

The last thing I want is a power suit is some person who has done minimal
training or had little combat experience. I want someone who knows what a
shooting war is, knows how to survive a shooting war, and be able to use
the force multiplier available to him with the PA to make sure the other
person dies for his king/country/corperation/religion.

In my Trav campaign, Ship troops and shock troops would have access to PA
(i disagree with limited PA in ships, as you may have to fight outside a
ship, in the fuel tanks or even jump to an enemy ship in space).  Power
armour would be the Best of the Best, the goal that other marines spend
their career trying to earn. Other marines fight in combat armour (which
would be augmented, but not to the level of PA).

People may disagree, its their job.

In many wargames (Star Grunt II and WH40k spring to mind, both small
company level combat as seen in traveller games), only elites get Power
armour. While there are PA only troops (Deathwing Terminators in 40k, New
Israeli in SGII), these are extreamly dangerous units limited in number.
While there is nothing stopping you in SGII from having PA for every Tom ,
Dick and Harriet in your army, giving PA to green or regular troops is just
asking for trouble (I know i have PA, but there is no way I am charging
that hill, theose guys have guns!!!!!). (In Stargrunt close assult, the
attacking player makes a morale check before attacking, based on leadership
and troop quality. If you cant guarentee your troops being able to attack,
why are they there???).

Darryl


Visit our Web Site : http://www.ParraCity.nsw.gov.au

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:05:57 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: OT: Yahoo/Geocities warning

Walter Smith wrote:

> Bloo wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> Goodnight copyright.  Thats giving the farm away, lock, stock and barrel.
> It looks like the intention is to allow them the ability to remove troublesome
> content from their webservers, potentially a prudent move given liability
> laws that 'could' make them liable for content of those who publish on their
> with them.  But they couldn't do that without taking total control.  So
> what might have been originally intended as a legal move to protect the
> company, ends up being a wholesale transfer of copyrights.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> That's almost like saying that my local TV station owns the copyright to
> _The Wizard of Oz_, since they got to broadcast it a time or two.
>
> I'm surprised that Yahoo and Geocities need to own the material to
> censor it. All they should need, as part of their usage agreement,
> is a notice that certain subjects are taboo, a notice that the poster is
> responsible for what he puts on the site, and a notice that the service
> provider reserves the right to terminate service based on certain criteria.

Well, then they have to define whats taboo.
"How to make a pipe bomb" might be a good example of taboo.
But "Chemistry notes on combustive reactions" might be hunky dory.
By being rather sweeping in the privileges they get in the deal, they
don't have to deal with any fine lines.  If I was them, since the web space
is free, its the deal I'd want.  The other option is disclaimers and liability
waivers.  If I'm a web publisher, I want control of my intellectual property.
If I want control, they want liability waivers.  Even though its not really a
legal issue, if you pay for the privilege to post, you're more likely to
refrain from illegal conduct.  If its totally free, it almost becomes and
invitation to say whatever you want, regardless of the consequences.


>Maybe they thought it was simpler to say, "If you post it, we own it.

> Since we own it, we can take it down or leave it up at whim."

Thats about what it says, translated from the legalese.

> If I were a Yahoo/Geocities user, I'd be worried about some vice
> president reading their service agreement and getting the wonderful
> idea of harvesting the entire web community for saleable content. Want
> to see your web page's logo on a T-shirt, with you forbidden from using it?

The agreement says "non-exclusive", so they couldn't stop you from
doing anything with your material.  But, they could do whatever you
could do.

- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:11:07 -0400
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning

Hypercleats wrote:

> I read somewhere that "If creativity is a field, copyright is the fence."

Well, thats fairly accurate.  If you want to reap what you sow, put up
a fence or anyone who wants to can take it.

> Can TOS that are contrary to previous copyrights really be legal? This sounds
> crazy, must be true. ;)

You mean contrary to previous "agreements" don't you?
If you make a new agreement, the old one is gone.
Otherwise the original is valid until it expires or is otherwise terminated.
Things like TOS are changed all the time.  By continuning to use whatever is
the object of the TOS, you agree to them.


- --
Bloo

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 19:22:25 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...

- ----------
> From: Matthew Bond <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...
> Date: Tuesday, 29 June, 1999 12:29 PM
> 
> 
> Yet another BD thread, ho hum :)
> 
> The trouble with the image of BD Marines in the GT universe is the
> inconsistency with the previous canon.  In CT / MT / TNE, BD was good
armour
> but was still vulnerable to hefty, man-portable, slugthrowers etc.  It
> enhanced strength, and gave effectively unlimited endurance.  In the
actual
> GT book, the two types of BD mentioned are in this same mould. PD 4 DR
240
> tops...
> Then came Star Mercs and the horrendous Commando BD.  DR1200!!, speed
> 70mph!!!...  Whuh?!?

That particular design was totally broken (in terms of playability) and was
never playtested.  It caused a rather large hue and cry on Pyramid, where
the playtests happen.  I would tend to ignore it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:28:47 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Matthew Bond <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 2:29 AM
Subject: Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...


>
> Yet another BD thread, ho hum :)
>
> The trouble with the image of BD Marines in the GT universe is the
> inconsistency with the previous canon.  In CT / MT / TNE, BD was good
armour
> but was still vulnerable to hefty, man-portable, slugthrowers etc.  It
> enhanced strength, and gave effectively unlimited endurance.  In the
actual
> GT book, the two types of BD mentioned are in this same mould. PD 4 DR 240
> tops...
>
> Then came Star Mercs and the horrendous Commando BD.  DR1200!!, speed
> 70mph!!!...  Whuh?!?
>
> Let me get this straight... You want me to put my legs in here while it
runs
> at 70mph? Human limbs (even when being moved by an external device rather
> than under their own power) just aren't designed for that.  If my legs
> aren't in the BD legs, then I'm just the Pilot/Driver of a very small
Mech',
> and I want to play Traveller not Mechwarrior.
>
> Also, the max damage for an (Gurps) FGMP-12 is 8d6*20, with no armour
> divider, for a max of 960.  Hmmm, BD that is *invulnerable* to the best
FGMP
> in the Imperium.... I don't think we're in canon any more, Toto!
>
> I can see the situation now...
> "Stop using those Californium Rounds, or we send in the Marines...."
> "Send 'em in, at least we've got something that'll hurt them...."
>
>

LOL!!

Okay, okay... This is GT you are talking about?  Sounds like old AD&D Monty
Haul!!  And someone told me these are still good resource books???

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #791
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 30 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 792



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Marines...
Ca-li-for-nium, here I come!...(was Re: Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...)
Ca-li-for-nium, here I come!...(was Re: Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...)
OT, sort of
test, please ignore
RE: Xenobiology 101
Re: Girlie Marines That Wear (Battle) Dresses
Re: CT Skills
An Invitation to Traveller-Culture
RE: Battle Dress
Re: Re Battle Dress
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Battle Dress
Re: More Battle Dress stuff
Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning
YAAA
Re: Skill Levels [WAS: Vilani Lies, Imperial Marines]
Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:20:47 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Joseph R. Dietrich <yikes@evansville.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 2:41 AM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...



>
> >I have taken up far to much bandwidth and to much of your time with this
> >issue.  I am sorry for that, but I see indications that the majority of
> >posters do not want to see IM's BD-bound.
>
>
> Hmm. I don't remember it actually being put to a vote, so I'd be reticent
> to say a majority felt either way about the matter. I personally though
> Doug's piece was terrific.
>

I do apologise for that, I did take a liberty with the number of posts, not
an actual vote.  I looked at (at the time), that there were two people
saying marines eat, sleep, shower in BD* ...
(* an exaggeration to get my point over that they really, really, really,
want ALL marines to be in BD -- not what they actually said)
. and wanted non-suited IM's to have a chance at being penalised, against
what I saw as several individuals posting that marine players should not
have BD-skill shoved down their throats.

I took the afore mentioned liberty, knowing I would be "right" (no further
posters = the majority of posts say no forced BD) or "wrong" (poster's such
as yourself being almost compelled to post a view one way or the other as I
have "no right to speak for you"... and this has been the case).  I was
working on the old premise that "if you do not vote in a government
election, you have no rights to complain about whom is elected." (not that
that stops non-voters :)  However, I wasn't actually going to ask for a
consensus, but it sounds like an idea :^)

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 00:33:08 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Ca-li-for-nium, here I come!...(was Re: Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Cc: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: 29 June 1999 17:45
Subject: Re: Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...


>Matthew Bond writes:>>

<snip>

>> I can see the situation now...
>> "Stop using those Californium Rounds, or we send in the Marines...."
>> "Send 'em in, at least we've got something that'll hurt them...."
>
>Nah.  This wasn't clear in the stats, but DR is _squared_ against
concussion.

Vehicles p184 sidebar "It also does not apply to unsealed personal armor or
battlesuits..."

>6d*2000 won't scratch DR 1200 (actually, it might cause the frame to
>disintegrate, I don't remember how many body hp it has, and hp^2 will
>disintegrate the frame).  The Intrepid has enough armor to survive a direct
hit
>with a kiloton nuclear weapon, though the frame will break apart at only
about
>0.2 kilotons.


Actually 12d*2000 max for a 0.001kT micronuke.  Which will also do 12d*400
flash damage, for which DR definitely is not squared.

Matt

Matthew Bond
mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- --------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
.To run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:07:38 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: Ca-li-for-nium, here I come!...(was Re: Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Cc: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: 29 June 1999 17:45
Subject: Re: Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...


>Matthew Bond writes:>>

<snip>

>> I can see the situation now...
>> "Stop using those Californium Rounds, or we send in the Marines...."
>> "Send 'em in, at least we've got something that'll hurt them...."
>
>Nah.  This wasn't clear in the stats, but DR is _squared_ against
concussion.

Vehicles p184 sidebar "It also does not apply to unsealed personal armor or
battlesuits..."

>6d*2000 won't scratch DR 1200 (actually, it might cause the frame to
>disintegrate, I don't remember how many body hp it has, and hp^2 will
>disintegrate the frame).  The Intrepid has enough armor to survive a direct
hit
>with a kiloton nuclear weapon, though the frame will break apart at only
about
>0.2 kilotons.


Actually 12d*2000 max for a 0.001kT micronuke.  Which will also do 12d*400
flash damage, for which DR definitely is not squared.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 01:26:49 -0500
From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
Subject: OT, sort of

If you fill in all the occurrences of 2300 AD with  Traveller 2300 it should
fit better here.
Sorry to waste the time.

"I am recruiting some more players for a 2300 AD pbem.  The game has just
started and as usual, a few players have dropped or disappeared.
The game is set in 2298 and the players have been hired as the crew of an
exploration ship.  This ship is funded by a megacorp and is subject to great
deal of interest from other nations and their respective intelligence
agencies"

If interested, contact me off list
redroach@flex.net
tvv

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------
"... you may all go to hell and I will go to Texas."
David Crockett

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:44:28 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: test, please ignore

Please ignore this post
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:17:55 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Xenobiology 101

Thing writes:
<snipped>
"Basically they determined that humans have a scarily high 
mutation rate and theorized that sexual reproduction has 
allowed us to select out the bad genes and reduce the 
overall fatality through mutation rate.  If this is true 
all the modern work on fertility therapy should have an 
even worse effect on the gene pool than I have long thought."
<snipped>

	No biologist that I know doubts this, but that doesn't
	sew up the problem entirely. It is difficult to imagine
	a scenario where "going sexual" will grant an advantage
	to an individual organism. Remember that natural 
	selection does not, under all but very specialized 
	conditions, favour populations that do better. Rather, 
	superior individuals are favoured, sometimes at the 
	expense of the population. It may be that in early 
	populations of organisms, the accumulation of deleterious
	mutations became such a problem that shuffling genes 
	more than made up for the sacrifices of diluting your
	genes and halving the number of individuals that may
	reproduce (not to mention the problems in finding a
	mate, exchanging STDs, fighting over control of
	reproductive effort, etc.)	After all that, one still has 
	to consider the fact that many species seem to have done 
	well for millions of years without sex.

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 23:54:27 -0700
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Girlie Marines That Wear (Battle) Dresses

>From: Ashley Munday <Ashley.Munday@liffe.com>
>Subject: Girlie Marines That Wear (Battle) Dresses
.
>How come then in "The Kinunir" only 1/3 of the ships troops are equipped
>with BD and PGMP-13's?They're the jump troopers who get bunged in capsules
>and dropped on the unsuspecting. The other 2/3 are a Vacc Suited boarding
>unit and a unit of motorised infantry.

  600,000 kilo's of carrier is "motorised"? I'd hate to see your IFV's :>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 00:15:06 -0500
From: Alex Ingram <ingram@airmail.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

> What does this remind you of, CT Advanced? ;->
>
> Eris
> ------------------------------------------------------------

Yes! Advanced Classic Traveller is alive in my game world. In 1975 I was
introduced to Traveller and have been involved in role-playing and refing a
Traveller universe ever since. I like the way Traveller developed characters on
a year-by-year basis and not just throwing a fixed number of skills points at a
PC. But I also felt that the character generation rollup was weak and somewhat
unrealistic. So I decided to create a much more comprehensive and realistic
system. I’ve spent hundreds of hours during the past twenty four years
developing a better system that provides a much more dynamic and realistic PC.
There’s an overview of the chargen system I have been using over the years. This
includes an extensive pre-service background:

The first roll is for Special Characters: There’s a remote possibility (a roll
20 on 1d20) of the PC being a laboratory massed-produced clone, or genetically
enhanced, or cybernetically enhanced, or psionically enhanced, or a symbiont, or
a shape-shifter, or an intelligent android. Some of these will affect the base
characteristics scores.

For normal PCs roll the characteristics, or roll and modify if PC is Special

Family Structure: PC was raised by: Orphanage, Multiple Foster Families, Single
Foster Family, Natural Parent(s), Grand Parent(s), Other Extended Family,
Commune (Multiple Parents). Adds to fleshing out a PC.

Roll for each Parents Background: Education Level, Social Standing, Family
Wealth, State of Health (healthy, chronic illness, dead), Ethnic Background
(first, second or third generation), Profession(s), Siblings (number, sex) and
PC’s High School Type (religious, public, elite private, military, home, private
tutoring) along with High School Honors/Scholarships

Next roll PCs Home World: Planet Type (garden, ice, ocean, vacuum, desert), Tech
Level (TL-5 to TL-16), Production (agricultural, mining, industrial,
technological), Population (very high, high, medium, low, very low), GNP (very
rich, rich, medium, poor, very poor), Law Level (very high, high, medium, low,
very low)

Roll for Pre-Service Skills (consistent with PCs background and home world): An
automatic SL-3 for Primary Language. Roll once for each catagory: Computer,
Personality, Sports, Performance, Second Language, Technical,
Vehicle/Aircraft/Watercraft, Survival, Weapon

University or Military Academy: Entrance, Graduation, Honors, Skills

Branch Selection, Branch School Skills, Honors

(In real life situations commissioned officers are in command of military units
and make all major decisions. I make it easier to receive a commission. If a
failure occurs for University or Academy entrance or graduation the PC may save
eight skill points during their enlisted service and earn a bachelor’s degree
(going to college at night). In this way they can be almost guaranteed of a
direct commission.) I also have a Warrant Office program for each service.

Each year contains a series of rolls: Assignment, Position (command or staff),
Unit/Ship/School/Other (POW, Hospital/Rehab), Honors for Schools, Mission,
Survival/Capture/POW, Wounds/Hospital/Rehab, Skill Roll (normally one or
numerous for military schools), Efficiency Report*, Decorations, Special Life
Events (marriage, divorce, birth of child, death of parent, bankruptcy, win the
lotto, become famous due to military mission, etc.), PIPs** Received/ Used,
Promotion, Friendly or Hostile Contact***, Aging.

Eventually, the PC either transfers to another service/organization (allowed
only once) or resigns his commission anytime before retirement and begins the
game, or retires and rolls for money saved, equipment owned, additional contacts
(friendly or hostile), ship title, established credit lines, special permits,
professional licenses, guild or association memberships, cybernetic
implants/devices, finding psionics training, anagathics, noble title and estate,
etc. Some PCs may be court marshalled and serve prison time before being
released into the game.

* Efficiency Reports are critical to promotion and future command assignments.
They can be Poor (charges filled and Court Marshal ordered), Average or
Excellent (Receiving PIPs)

** PIPs are Personal Influence Points awarded for duty as Generals/Admirals Aid,
Diplomatic Attache, Liaison to the Imperial Moot, Special Command Assignments,
Military Academy Professorship, Excellent Efficiency Reports, Decorations of
High Level, etc. These are in essence political favors owed the PC by someone
with influence that can be used to affect die rolls either plus or minus for any
roll except survival and efficiency reports. Example: the PC rolls a 4 on a
skill table but wants another skill on the table, he adds or substracts PIPs to
the roll reducing his PIP bank.

*** Every year roll for a contact - an NPC that may be a special family member,
a best friend, a patron or mentor, a former commander, a professor, or a
powerful enemy. Each contact will have a name, service, position, rank, world
location and if frieendly or hostile and reasoning for their feelings. Other
game PCs can be contacts making for common interests or experiences on group
startup.

 I have used this system in dozens of roll ups with excellent results. Players
always enjoy their PCs more having more extensive background knowledge. The
system I use was taken from hundreds of manuals and books on the military
personnel systems of the US, UK, Germany and Israel.

Comments please!

Alex Ingram

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 23:55:52 GMT
From: jzeitlin@cyburban.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: An Invitation to Traveller-Culture

TravLang Is Dead; Long Live Traveller-Culture.

After a long period of inactivity, I've decided to try to revive
what started out at the Traveller Language Project, and which
later did a partial morph to the Traveller Cultural Development
Project.  The revival includes moving the list to ONEList and
renaming it.

Now, comes the hard part: recruitment.  We still have most of the
people who joined the original TravLang list out of interest in
the language concept.  We're still interested in that aspect, but
it's not exclusive.  Now, we want people with vocations,
avocations, hobbies, interests, skills, and so on in just about
anything that we could use to flesh out a potentially massive
sourcebook on a focus culture in the Traveller universe.  And I
mean _anything_.  Interested in military history and/or
operations?  Tell us about Vilani military doctrine and
philosophies.  Medicine?  What's Vland's medical history and
current approach to medical diagnosis and treatment?  Literature?
What are the various Vilani literary forms, and how did they
develop, and what are some noteworthy works?  Architecture?  How
did it develop on Vland, what sort of styles are favored (and
what styles have been favored historically), and what are the
philosophies behind various types of designs?  You get the idea.
Basicly, if you have something to contribute to _this_ list,
chances are you also have ideas that can be used in
Traveller-Culture.  Come give us a try.  You can subscribe by
visiting 

http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/Traveller-Culture

with your web browser, or send e-mail to 

mailto:Traveller-Culture-subscribe@onelist.com

Traveller-Culture is available as both a reflector and a digest.
The default is to sign you up for the reflector; you can change
your subscription through the ONEList member center, or by
sending email to

mailto:Traveller-Culture-digest@onelist.com

to start receiving the digest, or

mailto:Traveller-Culture-normal@onelist.com

to receive the reflector.  All messages are archived as digests
in the Member Center; there are also files in the shared file
area that may be of interest to list participants.

Please, come join the fun, and make it more fun!

Right now, we're focussing on the Vilani.  If you have any ideas
about what makes the Vilani Vilani, come join us and share them,
and see if we can all agree.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 14:04:49
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Battle Dress

At 12:29 PM 6/29/99 -0700, you wrote:
>What kind of sensors (in battle dress) do GM's out there use?  I'm an old
>Classic Traveller player just picking up.
>
>I assume IR (or FLIR), UV,
>
>what about enivronment checks ?( gas, poisons, corrosives, for non-suited
>civilians nearby), sound or radar imaging?  Others???

The much maligned Scout/Commando BD in _Star Mercs_ has:

10 mile AESA (Active sensor)
5 mile PESA (Passive sensor)
1 mile passive sonar
.5 mile geophone
2 mile radscanner
.1 mile gravscanner
Level 10 surveillance sound detector

All of this integrated and run by the onboard minicomputer.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:55:51
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Re Battle Dress

At 08:17 AM 6/29/99 -0500, you wrote:

>One way to keep the the canon-cockers happy would be to mention that
>these rank titles are part of a post-FFW reform and reorganization.

I think I put in a hint that the ranks had changed before in the section on
the Marine Cutlass.  i mentioned "Star Sergeant" what's-his-name, mumble
mumble..

>Just don't take away my Imperial Army BD Jump Troops!

Never!  The Army Jump Brigades take the jobs that are too big for a Marine
Regiment!  The also jump with artillery support in module form.  Army
Jumpers have to assemble their field guns on the LZ, and they are muscle
moved until support comes in.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:42:06
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

At 10:41 AM 6/29/99 -0600, you wrote:

>Of course, if battledress *is* a highly specialized vehicle it seems seems
>somewhat ridiculous to say that every Imperial Marine learns the skill.
>After all, not every joe in an air force learns how to fly a fighter, nor
>does every member of an army know how to operate a tank. What about IM
>support personnel? What about marine fliers for interface craft or drivers
>for grav armor and artillery? Why waste time training them in battledress
>when they could better spend the time training in their own specialty?

About as ridiculous as modern USMC pilots keeping up their M-16A2
qualification.

You learn it because every Marine learns it.  Someday, that Marine fighter
jock may be forced into a position where he has to suit and fight a
desperate rearguard action, just like a USMC F/A-18 pilot could find
himself leading a bunch of jarheads.  

In the template as written, the mandatory investment is a whopping 2 points
out of 140 for an average campaign.  This gives you DX worth of the skill,
or Battlesuit (TL12)-10 for an average human.

>As written, the IM don't seem very autonomous. Rather, they look to me like
>highly specialized shock troops for the Imperial Navy. I guess that this
>might be a better model than the U.S. Marine model that a lot of people
>seem to be equating them with.

Bingo!  We have a winner.  The marines and Navy are part and parcel of the
Emperor's will.  The Marines depend on the Navy for the vast majority of
their support and supply, and even to haul them around.  The Imperial
Marine Force is nowhere near as autonomous as the USMC.


- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:22:27
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

At 08:51 AM 6/29/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Yeesh, that sounds scary. Do the Exoskeleton -assists have an "off" setting?
>Battledress requires alot of traing to avoid smashing things on accident. I
>would think that BD skill could be used for Vac Suit, but an arbiter could
>convince me otherwise for his universe by saying BD is more user-friendly or
>even completly automatic for some of the basics, rendering BD users somewhat
>pampered. But able to crush their enemies!

The strength augmentation would of course have a "safe" setting that allows
an individual to move, carry his/her load of gear and do the predrop
routine.  After the trooper is secured in the drop capsule, then the safety
interlocks are turned off and full power is routed to the suit's "muscles."

The advantage in advanced Battledress is that it does do a lot of the work
for the trooper inside it.  The true advantage isn't the strength and
armor, but the amount of information a BD equipped soldier can process.
The BD computer processes all the sensor information and presents it to the
trooper on his HUD.  It's also tied in to a network consisting of the
trooper's squadmates.  What they see, he sees, and his chain of command
sees.  The battlecomp also does a lot of information sorting.  Say a sniper
fires at a Marine.  The point-defence radar picks up the incoming slug,
analyzes the flight characteristics, assigns the round a position in the
threat queue for PD fire, and back-tracks to the point of origin.  It then
puts up an icon (I've always pictured red inverted triangles) over the
probable location of the shooter, along with a quick rundown of what he's
using against you.

Since all the squaddies get the same info, it's much easier for the
Sergeant to direct an appropriate response.  Also, the contact information
filters up to platoon and company levels much faster.
- --

Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net
 http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/index.html

"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
                   - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:51:09
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: More Battle Dress stuff

At 02:35 PM 6/29/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Doug replied to my points. The first was about the make up of the Marine
>platoon on Kinunir class ships.
>
>"Because that's how the Navy decided the Marine complement of the class
>should be divied up this way.  Nothing about that ship made sense IMHO."
>
>I was only 12 or 13 when I saw "The Kinunir," so I didn't have the benefit
>of Sir's intense wisdom about what was right and what was wrong about the
>ship design. Having said that, it's the oldest example I've seen in print of
>a Marine platoon: Only 1/3 wearing BD: It's a de-facto standard. Saying "All
>marines wear BD and use FMGP-14s" goes against that standard.

Except that the Kinunir model was broken when Loren wrote "Imperial Marine
Task Force Organization" for JTAS #12.  In there it was explicitly sated
that *all* Marines are equipped with BD and armed with fusion weapons.

If you use Kinunir for your canonical standard, then Regina Subsector is
adequately protected by five 1200 ton battlecruisers.

>I mentioned that BD is not as rock hard as various peoples implication: Doug
>replied that using (I assume GURPS)vehicles that you can build something
>that is. He goes on:
>
>"...but the whole idea is that the battledress equipped trooper is going to
>be something as terrifying to normal infantry as a King Tiger was on the
>Western Front."
>
>Sorry old son, but it patently isn't that scary. AFAIK taking out a Tiger
>Tank with a small arm is an exercise in futility, not the chance a character
>with a Gaus rifle gets shooting at someone in Battle Dress gets. What I'd
>hate to see is one weekend we play in a universe where a burst of Gaus rifle
>fire has a fair chance of taking out a man in TL 13 BD (using Book 1 / AHL
>or Striker) and the next weekend we have the situation where the same weapon
>in the hands of a comparable character won't stand a chance (using GURPS).

Persoanl note: please don't call me "son", don't want to get into it, but
it's guarnteed to set me off.

To make things clear, I'm not designing for a shooting gallery, I'm
designing for an elite military force that has the power (and credit lines)
of the Iridium Throne and 11,000 worlds behind it.  The early versions of
Assault BD are a bit slower (no sprinting at 70MPH! Carry about the same
armor, and have nasty intergal weapons systems.  It's designed so that a
sixty man platoon can handle forces several times their own size without
being wiped out.
- -- 

Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net
Sjolidsforingi, Njosnadeild
Geimdeild sambandshersins 
Gram, Sverdaheimssambandid
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 17:12:51 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning

Kurt Feltenberger wrote:
> 
> (Sorry to waste bandwidth, but this is important)
> 
> Friends,
> 
> Over the weekend someone brought up the Yahoo/Geocities merger and the new,
> revised Terms of Service.  Simply put, if you have any sites hosted by
> Yahoo/Geocities, you risk loosing control and ownership of the content and
> materials on your site, even if it is copywritten or trademarked.
> 
> Here is a link to an article that goes into detail regarding the situation.
>  You may need to cut and paste it into your browser as it is a bit long.
> 
> http://technews.netscape.com/computing/technews/newsitem/0,290,38463,00.html
> ?pt.netscape.fd.hl.ne

In a general sense, do the following Terms of Service (Homestead.com)
grab as much as Yahoo has?:

**begin quote**

8.4 Solely for the purposes of displaying your Homestead on the Internet
and for Homestead's advertising and promotional purposes, you hereby
grant to us the right to exercise all intellectual property rights, in
any media now known or not currently known, with respect to any content
you place on your Homestead. 

**end quote**

As a layman, I would think that Homestead is limiting itself more than
Yahoo has (due to the first clause), but I wonder about the vagueness of
the term "all intellectual property rights" in the second clause of the
sentence.

ObTrav:  Most of my site is simply links to other sites, and therefore
my only intellectual property is the actual HTML code.  However,
AuricTech Shipyards (FF&S2 ship designs [the Trav content of this post]
contains original content, the rights to which I want to maintain.

<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:33:07 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: YAAA

At 09:50 AM 29/06/1999 -0700, you wrote:
>
>BTW, I looked everywhere to find out what ROFLMAO means, but haven't found an
>answer yet. Any help?
>

        ROFLMAO ....    Rolling On the Floor Laughing My A$$ Off
        YAA     ...........     Yet Another Annoying Acronym

        BYE
        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 15:20:09 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: Skill Levels [WAS: Vilani Lies, Imperial Marines]

At 05:35 AM 6/29/99 -0500, Andy Slack wrote:
>Baselines:
>CT Book 1 fully qualified: Level 1. [Says so in Book 3]
>CT Book 5+ fully qualified: Level 2. [Says so in High Guard]
>CT licenced Doctor: Level 3 [Says so in Book 1]

These were about the range I was thinking. Someone with no
computer skill could use application programs (library,
return-fire, auto-evade), computer-1 would mean competent
to oversee a system - so when the pilot says, "My quick-start
menu bar has disappeared" (or the TL15 equivalent) this guy
could say, "You dimwit! Copy <menu-bar> to your rc1 directory
and reboot."

Computer-3 would be a comp-sci graduate.

Electronics-1 could plug off the shelf components into your
computer, and diagnose which part was faulty when the pilot
was saying, "My <instert tech here> button isn't working".

Electronics-3 would be an electronics engineer.

I suppose medic-1 would be like an LPN.
          medic-2 would be like an RN.
The equivalent 4 year degree would be BSN? Bachelor of Nursing?

An MD, OTOH, has more 4 years of just pre-med, then 2? years
medical school. If he just wants to be a GP, he then has 1
year of internship (working in the field).

I had forgotten about the instruction skill rules though. This
seems to say that skill-1 is achieved in a semester, which
makes the skills cheap (which is why they say the GM should 
make it difficult to find instructors).

- -- 
At last, extensive rules for the personnel and starships of the
interstellar navies of the universe.
Rob Brady                              robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:11:18 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills (was, Re: Imperial Marines...) 

> >IMTU, there aren't a whole lotta tramps flying in the developed areas, at
> >least, not before the Rebellion anyways.  Now, they're starting to come
> back,
> >flying interface between the Wilds and the Safes, places where the
> corporados
> >don't *even* wanna be flying.
> 
> 
> Well, it merely sounds like a clash of playing styles (more on that in a
> second).

Poss-a-bull...  <grin>

> >> Usually in the more developed areas of the Imperium. That's what my
> players
> >> seem to like best.
> >
> >Personally, I like running around on the fringes.  Dunno why, but it
> *seems*
> >there's more action out there than around the center of the Imperium.
> 
> 
> I think that there are different kinds of action. In the more developed and
> established areas, you're going to have alot more intercorporate "black
> ops," since, to some extent these things are almost legal. Stuff like
> kidnapping, assassination, data and research theft, headhunting, defections,
> stuff like that.

On the fringes, you get all of that, plus brushfire wars flaring up every now 
and again, commerce raiding, piracy, mopery, dopery, buggery, and politicking.
 
> >For me, the challange is to roll something up and *play* it as it falls.
> >More on this in a bit...
> 
> 
> To be honest, I agree. There are certain considerations that Traveller has
> that many other games don't. Andy Slack went into some of these
> considerations years ago in his excellent White Dwarf article "Backdrop of
> Stars," and many of them hold true today.

IIRC, the article is on his site someplace.  I'd post the ref, but I don't 
have it handy.
 
> What I mean, Keven, is that you, from what I've seen, have an excellent grip
> on canon. You can put those random rolls together and create a character who
> has depth and who you feel you can play. Hamlin's a great character, but it
> also looks like he was blessed with a number of good skills.

I've been playing since '78, *long* before 'Spinward Marches' came out.  
Hamlin came out the way he did because I got *lucky* with him.
 
> Unfortunately, not all players have the same knowledge of the universe going
> in. While I don't doubt you can create an effective merchant character with
> bow combat, groundcar and admin skills, not everybody can.

All it takes is a bit of work & experience, which *anybody* can get.
 
> >Hamlin's straight outta 'Merchant Prince', and I was happy with how he
> ended
> >up.  We worked the Handgun-4 into his bio as him being on the corporate
> >Shooting Team that was trendy in the Deneb area for about 5, 10 years
> (copped
> >a gun & a couple more Gun Cbts as material bennies).  And he has serious
> >problems adjusting his thinking from 20 years of 'right way, wrong way,
> >Sharurshid way', even though no corporation will bother talking to him
> about
> >a job due to Sharurshid's blackballing him when he quit.
> >
> >All in all, a fun guy to hang with.  And a guy who's looking to skipper his
> >own boat someday.
> 
> 
> That's exactly my above point! ;)

All his personality quirks are straight out of the rolls plus what's in MP.  
After all, Sharurshid is a Villani mega, and even casual perusers of the TML 
know the Villani tend to be ultraconservative, stomping donw *hard* on 
original thinking.  Thus, the 'right way, wrong way, Sharurshid way' that a 
loyal corporado like Hamlin developed in his 20 year stint with the mega.  
Company housing, Company anthem, Company funeral.  <grin>

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #792
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 30 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 793



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Xenobiology 101
The definition of 'To Secure' (was Re: My take ... (LONG!))
Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: CT Skills 
re : Xenobiology 101 (reproductive hangups?)
Xenobiology 101 : From Primordial Soup to Cells (long)
RE: OT: Yahoo/Geocities Warning
FFS2 gun design question
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re: FTL == time travel
Andy Slack is moving...
Re: More Battle Dress stuff
re : Trade Routes
Battle Dress (warning : contains some patially-translated Ditzie-speak)
Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 18:28:20 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

- -----Original Message-----
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@hartwick.edu>
To: 'TML' <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 9:31 AM
Subject: re: Xenobiology 101


>The best guess I can come up with is that the speaker saw near-
>inevitable psychological problems due to our design combining
>an excretory organ with a reproductive organ.
>
>If we did all our reproduction with a specialized tube that stuck out of
>our foreheads, and did nothing but copulative and reproductive
>functions, would the human race be so inclined to see sex as "dirty"?


I'm not completely convinced that it's purely biological. There are various
tribes that exist to whom the sexual act is not considered "dirty." I'm not
an anthropologist or anything of the sort, mind you. However, there's a
distinct possibility that the taboo status of the sexual act has less to do
with its actual "dirtiness" and more to do with the little tiny people that
it produces. In other words, sex can lead to another mouth to feed for the
community.

For example, I can easily imagine that this is how various marriage customs
got started over the years. After all, on the base level, you are "getting
permission" from your community's authority to engage in the sex act. Of
course, the spirit of the institution may no longer exist in the same
fashion, but it's not hard to see how it can be based on the result, not the
act itself.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:57:32 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <JCornish@appiangraphics.com>
Subject: The definition of 'To Secure' (was Re: My take ... (LONG!))

- ------------------------------

On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 18:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com> did
spill onto his keyboard:

> MARINE OPERATIONS
> 
> More than any other service, the Marines are dedicated to the raw
> application of force.  Marines are not trained in the peacekeeping or
> limited operations that the Army excels at.  When the Marines engage
> in combat, their creed is to use the maximum amount force possible to
> overwhelm and destroy the enemy in the minimal amount of time. 
> Marines are infamous for using fusion weapons to destroy an entire 
> building to root out a single sniper.

While I have read your reasoning, I do not agree completely. Maximum 
nessisary force yes. Take out the entire floor, yes. The whole 
building? No.  

You do know the how 'to secure a building' is interpreted by the branches of
the United States Armed Forces.

If you order a Marine unit to secure a building they will either call in an
airstrike, or set demolitions to level the building to the ground.

If you order an Army unit to secure a building, the unit will set up a fence
and bunker to protect it.

If you order a Navy unit to secure a building, a guard will turn out the
lights and lock the doors.

If you order an Air Force unit to secure a building, they will sign a long
term lease agreement for it.

A Marine unit securing a site is a pretty serious bit of business, from what
some of my ex-military friends have told me.

Jeffrey Cornish

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 18:04:16 EDT
From: RnLschaefr@aol.com
Subject: Re: OT:  Yahoo/Geocities Warning

In a message dated 6/29/99 12:51:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
eris@sierratel.com writes:

<< ROFLMAO  >>
= "rolling on the floor laughing my ass off"...
BobS

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 16:48:01 -0400
From: "Shade" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

Ok...my .02 credits

It would seem to me that Doug is essentially right.  Although I dont believe
that guard duty on a ship would require BD, I have to believe that a Marine
is going to be armed with that option at every turn.  The point is brought
up that in AHL people will snub pistols are taking down BD.  This seems
reasonable to a degree ( in the maze of the ship ), but as the writer said,
" in a battlefield, the guy with the pistol would be toast ".

Doug is also right in this:  In an Imperium where messages take months and
years to get out to the people, nothing says " Get your ducks in a row "
like the threat of Marines coming down on your ass.  Marines have to be
fearsome.  Marines have to come in with a big show of force and use that to
scare the people into line.  It has to be this way, I see no other way
around it.

We had a game being run at a FLGS at one point though where TL15 BD Marines
were fighting the local TL6 " warlord ".  The BD Marine tried to stand down
the local equivalent of a Tiger.  The tank shot, knocked him down, and then
basicly ran over him.

The sound was described as "  that sickening lobster-in-the cracker crunch
".

I always liked that.

Shade



Madness takes its toll.....please have exact change.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 18:54:27 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills 

- -----Original Message-----
From: Keven R. Pittsinger <jamstar@earthlink.net>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 3:12 AM
Subject: Re: CT Skills


>OK, your 'ship based' skills keep your boat flying.  Your *non* ship-based
>skills (weapons, Broker, Trader, Admin, Streetwise, etc) are what make and
>protect your money on the ground.  And IIRC, *ANYBODY* could be a steward
on
>a ship, doesn't take Steward skill, they just screw up people's dinner
orders
>a lot & the ship's laundry breaks down on them.  A *lot*.


I'm never said that non ship-based skills are useless. I did say that they
don't substitute for ship-based skills when you need ship-based skills.
That's pretty much the heart of it.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:17:13 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: re : Xenobiology 101 (reproductive hangups?)

Walt Smith wrote :-
> If we did all our reproduction with a specialized tube that stuck out of
> our foreheads, and did nothing but copulative and reproductive
> functions, would the human race be so inclined to see sex as "dirty"?

First thought : would 'dickhead' be a term of endearment?
Second thought : where would the foetus gestate? (Although Athena sprang
from Zeus' forehead...)

Sorry.
On a more serious note :-
Sex (the reproductive act rather than meiosis, etc.) being "dirty"
probably has its basis more in culture than anything else.
Sex feels good so reproduction will occur - consider it as an exercise
in risk-benefit.
For humans, sex and the search for it can be so time consuming that a
person could spend their time doing little else.
This is discouraged so that other aspects of life can go on :- feeding,
self-defence and cultural activities, for example.

Just my Cr 0.02...
[ducks for cover behind Xenobiology notes]

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:18:10 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Xenobiology 101 : From Primordial Soup to Cells (long)

* From Building Blocks to Biomolecules
Simple molecules - for example sugars, amino acids and nucleotides
(purine or pyrimidine [nitrogen-containing] bases joined to phosphated
sugars) - can join together to form polymers.
	Polymer formation is relatively easy to induce. Heating of dry
organic compounds can lead to polymer formation, as can catalysis by
a wide range of substances e.g. inorganic phosphates.
	These compounds would initially be completely random in their
structure. Polynucleotides can act as templates for further
polymerisation reactions, e.g. :-

A-G-G-U + nucleotide soup -> A-G-G-U -> A-G-G-U + U-C-C-A,
                             * * * *
                             U-C-C-A

where A = adenine, C = cytosine, G = guanine, U = uracil and * represent
hydrogen bonds ('weak' areas of relative negative and positive charge).

A can only link weakly with U and C with G due to the shapes of the
molecules and the distribution of charge.

	This process, called complementary templating, is the basis of
genetic information transcription in all terrestrial organisms.
	Polynucleotide chains will adopt unique three-dimensional shapes
depending on their sequence. Such molecules have been demonstrated to
exert catalytic activity on other molecules and the ability to copy
themselves.
	With time, errors would arise in the copying process, leading to
new molecules being produced. Given an initial set of conditions, a
group of 'replicators' would have eventually dominated the environment.
One presumes the fastest, most accurate and most stable replicators
prevailed. 
	Nucleotides are limited however in the variety of reactions they can
catalyse. The potential number of amino acid polymers - proteins - is
much larger, simply because there are more amino acids to choose from.
[Note that even though twenty amino acids and five nucleotides make up
almost all of those found in Earthly life, the number of possible amino
acids and nucleotides is almost endless].
	The number of possible sugar polymers [carbohydrates] is larger still.
Consider this : eleven chemically distinct compounds can be created from
two molecules of glucose.  

It is currently thought that nucleotides came first, then proteins, then
carbohydrates. Any sequence is possible, although carbohydrates are yet
to be shown to be capable of catalytic activity - but the science of
glycobiology is still relatively young. 

* Aside : Optical isomerism
Compounds can display optical isomerism - they rotate polarised light in
different directions. The structural requirement is simple - a carbon
atom linked to four different chemical groups.
	Chemists group compounds into those that rotate polarised light
clockwise (dextro, + or D isomers) or counterclockwise (laevo, - or L
isomers).
	In terrestrial life, all amino acids are L isomers.
Almost all sugars are D isomers (gut membrane glucose transporters will
accept L-glucose with 1% of the avidity of the D form - but most
organisms can't do anything with L-glucose). 
	Where optical isomerism is possible, in time one form will dominate
over another because to catalyse reactions with the other isomer
requires more energy. This phenomenon is known as 'stereoselectivity'.

How did this situation arise?
It is currently thought that a small excess of one isomer, created by an
abundance of circularly polarised light (common in star forming
regions), and subsequent amplification by later chemical reactions, did
the trick.

[If left alone for long enough, amino acids will revert to a mixture of
both isomers (a so-called racemic mixture). This is the basis of a
relatively new sample dating technique, since this process occurs at a
known rate].

So with time and the right conditions, molecules capable of
sophisticated stereoselective synthetic reactions are possible.
'Communities' of these chemicals represent the precursors to life as we
know it. How are their energy needs met?

* Metabolism : What does it mean to be an 'oxygen breather', anyway?
The sum total of the chemical reactions taking place in an organism is
termed metabolism.
	Reactions are of two broad types : catabolic, where energy is
liberated in a series of small usable steps via the breakdown of complex
molecules, and anabolic - the synthesis of complex molecules from
simpler substrates, which costs energy.
	In Earthly life, there are two important chemical reactions that 
illustrate both processes :-

Catabolic : the aerobic breakdown of glucose
C6H12O6 + 6O2 -> 6CO2 + 6H2O + 3085kJ/mol glucose (50% stored in the
high energy phosphate bonds of 38 molecules of adenosine triphosphate,
ATP ; the remainder is 'wasted' heat).

and the reverse anabolic reaction, photosynthesis - this allowed the
replenishment of organic molecules from atmospheric gases.

Photosynthesis is the reason why worlds have oxygen in their
atmospheres. Oxygen is difficult to liberate from rocks, etc. without
extensive violent geological activity.

Early in life's history, it is presumed that energy requirements were
met by the anaerobic degradation of glucose (glycolysis) as it forms the
"backbone" of most contemporary organisms' metabolic pathways :-
glucose -> lactic acid + 2 ATP

The capability to use oxygen came later when it became more abundant.
Aerobic respiration [the citric acid or Krebs cycle and the electron
transport chain] is based entirely within mitochondria, which are
symbiotic bacteria which merged with our distant ancestors early in the
story of life.   

Chloroplasts, the organelles of photosynthesis, also appear to be
endosymbionts.

* Some alternative systems
Hypothetical central metabolic pathways take the following general
form:-

'biomolecule' + 'reactant' <-> 'breakdown products' + energy

Reactant       Breakdown Product of Reactant
['inhaled']    ['exhaled']   
[Oxygen        Carbon dioxide and water]
Nitrogen       Ammonia or urea (NH2 - CO - NH2)
Sulphur        Hydrogen sulphide
Hydrogen       Water 
peroxide
Chlorine       Chlorides
Methane        Carbon dioxide
Phosgene       Carbon dioxide
Hydrogen       Methane
Ammonia        Nitric acid
Hydrogen       Sulphuric acid
sulphide

The forward (left -> right) reaction is equivalent to the breakdown of
glucose ; the reverse, photosynthesis.

In general terms, reactions analogous to glucose breakdown should :-
 - cause the 'biomolecule' to lose electrons (oxidation) ;
 - cause the 'reactant' to gain electrons (reduction) ; and
 - lead to the release of energy from bond rearrangements.

The ammonia -> nitric acid and hydrogen sulphide -> sulphuric acid
systems do not fulfil the criteria above, in that the reactant
substances are oxidised, not reduced ; but energy production is
reasonable. Exotic or corrosive atmosphere worlds could be populated
with organisms that run on such systems.

* The coming of cells : the importance of membranes
To maintain large amounts of complicated machinery in a stable
environment, the machinery should be enclosed.
	Cells can be seen as complex chemical plants. Membranes develop to let
nutrients in, wastes out and to keep interconnected machinery in close
proximity.
	Cell membranes are made up primarily of phospholipids : molecules with
a charged end and an uncharged one. Fats form droplets in water ;
phospholipids form vesicles with a bilayer of phospholipid molecules
separating inside and outside.

Outside    0======  =======0   Inside
           0======  =======0
           0======  =======0

where 0 represents the charged (hydrophilic) end, = the hydrophobic
portions.
	Keeping cellular machinery and metabolic intermediates charged prevents
them from leaving the cell, as they can't easily cross the hydrophobic
portion of the membrane. [Uncharged compounds with reasonable solubility
in both media can cross easily - e.g. oxygen and carbon dioxide].
	As cells become more complex, internal membranes arise to divide the
cell into compartments or organelles.
Some notable examples include :-
	- the nucleus, where genetic information is stored, transcribed and
repaired ;
	- the endoplasmic reticulum, where protein and lipid synthesis is
performed, as well as many miscellaneous reactions (e.g. breakdown of
foreign compounds) ;
        - the Golgi apparatus, which adds carbohydrate chains to
proteins ; and
        - vesicles which serve storage, secretory and degradative
functions (lysosomes and peroxisomes as examples of the last category).

* Multicellularity : the grand experiment
Most terrestrial life is made up of single celled organisms without
nuclei (prokaryotes or bacteria). Depending on which estimates you read,
most of the Earth's biomass could actually be subsurface bacteria.
	Why do multicellular organisms exist at all?
	There must be some benefits from specialisation e.g. easier to maintain
a certain environment (temperature, acidity, solute concentration) and
the ability to better make use of available resources (e.g. a tree vs. a
blue-green alga or cyanobacterium).
	With the advent of different organisms, different ecological niches
arose - and yet more creatures appeared to inhabit these new
environments.
	The process probably had its beginnings in colonial organisms,
single-celled forms which grouped together because they could feed more
efficiently. Examples include myxobacteria (which 'hunt in packs' and
form 'fruiting bodies' when resources run low), and green algae e.g.
Gonium sp. which aggregate in groups of 4, 8, 16 or 32 cells.
Volvox sp. can have more than 50,000 cells linked together to form a
hollow sphere. There is some division of labour within these colonies,
with a small population of cells serving a reproductive function.
	From these humble beginnings, things became very complicated as
organisms adapted to meet the challenges of varied and varying
environments. For example :-
	The development of extracellular substrates to serve as foundations for
sheets of cells (epithelia) ;
	Folding these sheets to produce enclosed regions e.g. the digestive sac
or coelenteron of hydrae, anemones and corals ; the space between the
inner and outer cell layers of these organisms in which their nervous
system enjoys conditions amenable to the propagation of signals
(saltatory conduction) ;
	The development of nervous and sensory systems to adapt to changing
environments ; and
	Other systems to handle waste and nutrient transport, maintain fluid,
electrolyte and acid-base balance, structural support and locomotion,
etc.	 	
	Vertebrates have over 200 distinct cell types, which can be grouped
into several organ systems.

* Summary
- - Biological molecules are complex. Their formation given appropriate
conditions seems inevitable. Stereochemistry develops early as it is a
more efficient way of using available resources.
- - Metabolism is dependent on chemical reaction pathways that turn 'food'
into usable energy ; waste products are recycled with the assistance of
external energy sources (light, heat, chemical gradients).
- - The formation of cells and multicellular organisms are mechanisms for
making better use of available resources. The activity of living things
can dramatically change the planetary environment, creating new niches
for life to occupy.

* What's in the next post?
Scaling laws :- relating metabolic rate to size and a few other
interesting parameters
Organ physiology :- hearts, lungs, kidneys, etc. Why they are necessary
and some other functional considerations.

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 10:40:02 -0700
From: "Cliff Linehan" <Cnl@sfamipec.com>
Subject: RE: OT: Yahoo/Geocities Warning

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com 
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Kurt
> Feltenberger
> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 5:41 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com 
> Subject: OT: Yahoo/Geocities Warning
>
>
> (Sorry to waste bandwidth, but this is important)
>
> Friends,
>
> Over the weekend someone brought up the Yahoo/Geocities merger
> and the new,
> revised Terms of Service.  Simply put, if you have any sites hosted
by
> Yahoo/Geocities, you risk loosing control and ownership of the
content and
> materials on your site, even if it is copywritten or trademarked.

Thanks for the heads up on that. I just yanked my important stuff stuff
from the site.



Clifford Linehan
cnl@sfamipec.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:15:12 +1200
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: FFS2 gun design question

I'm currently updating my T4 gunsmith spreadsheet to include heavy
weapons and I have some questions. (Its part of an ongoing project for
a FFS2 vehicle design sheet).

1 - At what TL do Nuclear and Collapsing Nuclear warheads become
available? I can't find this in FFS2 anywhere.

2 - How do you calculate how many submunitions can be fitted into a
warhead? Apparently this was also left out.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 20:03:53 -0500
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

At 09:09 PM 6/28/99 -0700, you wrote:
>On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:04:36 -0400, Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
>wrote:
>
>
>My own reading suggests that Steven is right:  they use no genetic
>engineering techniques more advanced than breeding/eugenics.  Motie
>generations are very short, especially among the smaller forms (like
>Watchmakers); presumably, the Masters simply bred their subjects for the
>desired qualities until they got Warriors, or Doctors, or whatever caste
>they wanted to create.
>
>The real reason that trying to invent some sort of birth control method
>(whether surgical, chemical, geneering, what have you) doesn't work is that
>the Moties have no central government.  If one Master's subjects stop
>breeding, eventually the others outnumber him and wipe him out so they can
>take his land.  Population pressure leads to total ruthlessness.  (Niven
>uses a similar theme in his description of the constant warring between Pak
>protectors to gain living space for their bloodlines.)
>
IIRC, somewhere in TMiGE, it is mentioned that one crazy eddie did manage
to find a reliable form of birth control. And, his Master WAS wiped out by
over-breeding neighbors. It's mentioned when the midshipmen are trapped on
the surface of Mote Prime. 

Okay. I've pulled out the book. A hormone was developed that would trick
the motie body into thinking it was pregnant and then turn the motie into a
sterile male. The problem is, the hormone only works on a female who hasn't
been pregnant yet, and the change isn't reversible. Therefore, the moties
this procedure is used on can never have kids.

That would certainly explain its' lack of popularity.

  
Richard Wilson

rtwilson@rollanet.org
rtwilson2@yahoo.com
ICQ# 33152095

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 21:40:49 +0100
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel

Using the simple equation d=s*t, the trip to Remulak takes

        t = 20 / 1020 (= 0.01961 years, = approx. 7 days 3 hours 45 minutes)

Obviously, the equation is reversible - it works in either direction, so any
difference in the return journey is due to the movement of the distant
system, as you say. However, that movement, relative to Earth, affects not
the speed (1020) but the distance to be travelled (20 light years) so that
on the return journey and using your figures the distance to be travelled
(D) is as follows:

    D = 20 + (0.002 * 0.000343)  = 20.000000686

the return journey therefore takes

    t = 20.000000686 / 1020 (= 0.01961)

In other words, the difference is insignificant and no time travel has taken
place.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: 28 June 1999 22:37
Subject: Re: FTL == time travel


>Rob Brady wrote:
>
>> http://caliban.physics.utoronto.ca/neufeld/FTL.stuff/throop.txt
>> is probably a better explanation of how FTL violates causality,
>> but once again the only way to violate causality in the
>> Traveller universe is jump from a system that has a velocity
>> of 0, to a system that has a velocity of near C (.82C is what
>> is specifically mentioned). I don't think this is ever
>> possible, because said system would pass into another hex in
>> less than 4 years.
>
>That's...well, let's back up a step.  I haven't really been following this
>thread, so bear with me.  There's a more mathematical analysis at the same
>site in http://caliban.physics.utoronto.ca/neufeld/FTL.stuff/acausal.ps.
>
>As best as I can tell, the Traveller jump drive is defined in such a way
>that there's a preferred reference frame; it behaves differently from the
>ship's point of view depending on the relative speed between the ship and
>some given world.  This violates special relativity.  If this *isn't* true
>we can build a time machine, which I think works as follows.
>
>Let's say that we've got a ship that can teleport at an effective speed
>of 1020x lightspeed (effectively jump-6).  It's also got a 6G drive.
>We'll start at rest relative to Earth, and jump 20 ly (about 6 pc) away
>to Remulak.  We exit jump at Remulak, still at rest relative to Earth.
>While there, we refuel and accelerate away from Earth to some speed v,
>spending time t in system.  Then we jump back to Earth; total trip time
>measured at Earth is T.  Now, according to the analysis in acausal.ps,
>we get a final equation which can be re-written in this case as
>
>  T == 20(2/1020 - v) + t
>       where t and T are in years and v is measured as a fraction of
>       lightspeed.
>
>If we don't accelerate relative to Earth at all while at Remulak (v == 0),
>and spend 3 hours (0.000342 years) there, then elapsed trip time for the
>ship as measured at Earth is
>
>  T == 20(2/1020 - 0) + 0.000342 == 0.0396 year, or about two weeks.
>
>Let's try that again, but this time we'll spend the three hours at Remulak
>accelerating to 600 km/s (0.002 c) relative to Earth with our 6G drive.
>Elapsed trip time as measured at Earth is then
>
>  T == 20(2/1020 - 0.002) + 0.000342 == -0.000442 year, or -3.87 hours.
>
>...so, the ship ends up at Earth almost four hours *before* it left!
>
>  -- Steve Bonneville
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 05:47:52 -0400
From: "Slack, Andy" <andy.slack@gb.unisys.com>
Subject: Andy Slack is moving...

Sorry for the bandwidth, this is the fastest way to reach you all...
Would someone be kind enough to cross-post this to the 2300 AD
mailing list?

I have changed ISP, and my old provided has been unexpectedly quick
to delete my old account.

The Halfway Station Website is now at:

http://www.halfwaystation.freeserve.co.uk/

You can reach me by email at either of:
Home: snakebite@halfwaystation.freeserve.co.uk
Work: andy.slack@gb.unisys.com

We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming...
Andy

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:08:08 -0400
From: "Thomas Schoene" <TomSchoene@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: More Battle Dress stuff

- ----------
> From: Ashley Munday <Ashley.Munday@liffe.com>
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: More Battle Dress stuff
> Date: Tuesday, 29 June, 1999 9:35 AM
> 
> I was only 12 or 13 when I saw "The Kinunir," so I didn't have the
benefit
> of Sir's intense wisdom about what was right and what was wrong about the
> ship design. Having said that, it's the oldest example I've seen in print
of
> a Marine platoon: Only 1/3 wearing BD: It's a de-facto standard. Saying
"All
> marines wear BD and use FMGP-14s" goes against that standard.

Being the oldest source doesn't make it the best.  As has been pointed out,
later canonical material said otherwise.  Given that Kinunir is Adventure
1, I think it's safe to say that things have changed a bit (you'll never
see a 1200-ton ship with a black globe now either.)
 
FWIW: I submitted a Kinunir conversion for the GT Imperial Navy book and
gave it battledress space for all troops.

> What I'd
> hate to see is one weekend we play in a universe where a burst of Gaus rifle
> fire has a fair chance of taking out a man in TL 13 BD (using Book 1 / AHL
> or Striker) and the next weekend we have the situation where the same weapon
> in the hands of a comparable character won't stand a chance (using GURPS).

Me too.  And if you discount the Commando battledress, which everyone
agrees is a bad idea, done by someone not real familiar with GURPS, then
you do have almost this situation.  A Gauss Rifle firing stock ammo won't
generally do the trick (except on a critical success, which can often
bypass all armor), but switch to hyperdense penetrators or some such and
it's a real threat.

Tom Schoene

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 22:38:23 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: re : Trade Routes

Technically, the rules as written in GT:FT preclude jump-3 Minor Routes.

Me, I saw whack it in. The cost per parsec of a jump-3 is only marginally
higher than for jump-2, and given that jump-3 ships can be built at
TL12/GT10, there isnt really a technology limit.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:42:09 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Battle Dress (warning : contains some patially-translated Ditzie-speak)

I cant speak for anyone else, but Ditzie isnt particularily impressed by
battledress.

In her view, clammie-wammie shells have some plussie wussie wussies, like
you can carry-warry more, but the minus-winus that you cant really carry
enough aaaarmament to be seeerious on on on a hiiii-tech battlefield.

The point about being immune to shrapnel is well made, however
cluster-wuster bomblets still hurt you (in three out of four design
sequences).

Leg infantry-winfantry can carry heavy equipment-wipment on graaaav sleds,
an an an can hide better-wetter becaaaaause they put out less watts of
energy-wenergy than a claaaaamshell. An an an leg infantry-winfantry can
use Wappoteurs.

She also isnt convinced that battle-wattle dwess can have good enough
pointie-wointie deeefense to stop plasma-gun tipped gwav missiles.

She reckons if you want a tank, be in a tank. If you want to be infantry,
be goooood at hiding-widing, an an an cawwy a biiiig stick.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 21:50:58 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses

>From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
>Subject: RE: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses
>
>The effective range of man portable plasma and fusion guns is not all that
>good.Plus the fact that the marine trooper is in a nice set of armour, which
>not only sets off a hole bunch of remote sensors, after all what was the
>battle computer and sensor arrays for? It may also have enough ground
>pressure to set off anti-armour land mines. Plus at the lower tech levels,
>and after the rebellion got into full swing lower tech armour became more
>widespread, in TNE at least, the trooper in a loaded battlesuit had both
>Agility and Initiative penalties. No wonder the army guys had all those
>light anti-armour missiles.

One of Roderick's very early designs was a very heavy rifle designed for
use within battledress. Plasma/fusion guns are nice clamshells, but I cant
see why a trooper in BD couldnt use some sort of chain gun from the hip. Or
lug a dirty great big recoiless rifle.

One of the key points about the survivability of BD troops is the efficacy
of BD point defense. Rocket-propelled grenades are a too-obvious
countermeasure to BD for them to lack defenses against it.

If I was building BD, I'd certainly build it with a grav belt, which should
reduce the contact mine problem (mines with prox fuses of various sorts,
OTOH will be an issue for all troops).

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #793
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 30 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 794



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: CT Skills
Xenobiology 101 : Scaling laws and some organ physiology (long)
More Fun for the Marines
re: Imperial Marines
Re: Leaving Geocities (OT)
Re: The definition of 'To Secure' (was Re: My take ... (LONG!))
Cray OS (Was : Vilani Lies)
Re: CT Skills
Re: Imperial Marines...
3dspace
Mercenary Doctors (was re: CT Skills)
2300AD/Traveller 2300
Re: Imperial Marines...
MedTraders
Re: Cray OS (Was : Vilani Lies)
RE: Battle Dress
RE: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses
RE: More Battle Dress stuff
FW: The definition of 'To Secure' (was Re: My take ... (LONG!))

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 06:06:40 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

>Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 00:15:06 -0500
>From: Alex Ingram <ingram@airmail.net>
>Subject: Re: CT Skills
>
>Yes! Advanced Classic Traveller is alive in my game world. In 1975 I was
>introduced to Traveller and have been involved in role-playing and refing a
>Traveller universe ever since.... 
>
>Comments please!
>
>Alex Ingram

Call the Templars -- we've got another line jumper. This one comes from an
alternate where Traveller was released in 1975, not 1977.

;-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:26:58 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Xenobiology 101 : Scaling laws and some organ physiology (long)

* Scaling laws : some interesting rules o'thumb
In the 1930s an American veterinarian, Max Kleiber, noted that metabolic
rate was proportional to an animal's mass raised to the 3/4 power.
        This relationship has been investigated in plants, animals and
cellular organelles and would appear to be generally valid
across 27 orders of magnitude (!).
        Other parameters that seem to fit power functions include
longevity, heart rate, number of offspring, lung surface area, etc.
        In general :-
        variable = constant X mass^power

The constants vary with the group of organisms concerned (birds,
mammals, etc.)

Why are such relationships important?
For the purpose of this discussion, it allows us to guesstimate sensible
answers to questions like "How much methane does this creature need an
hour to survive?" or "What is the IR signature of a K'kree in ceremonial
armour at laser rifle range?"
        In more general terms the presence of power laws suggests that
organisms are optimally adapted to get nutrients in and wastes out, and
as they get larger the adaptations required change (and are generally
more efficient).

* Some (more) biological gearheadedness
It is assumed that all life on a given world arises from a given solvent
system (e.g. water) and has common central metabolic pathways (e.g.
glycolysis / photosynthesis).
	- Metabolic rate is proportional to oxygen consumption.
Each litre of oxygen consumed (at standard laboratory conditions,
25 degrees Celsius and one atmosphere (101kPa, 14.5 psi, 760 Torr)
pressure) liberates 4.82kcal or 20.15kJ.
        In physiology, the respiratory quotient (R) is the ratio of
carbon dioxide produced to oxygen consumed.
 Different energy substrates have different R values when oxidised :-
        carbohydrates 1.0, 4.1kcal/g
        fats 0.7, 9.3kcal/g
        protein 0.82, 4.1kcal/g
        average diet R=0.8

	A simple, if somewhat inaccurate rule of thumb could be as follows :-
One litre of oxygen at standard lab conditions is about 0.04 mole.
This amount of all the reactants is required to liberate
4.82kcal/20.15kJ.

	- Metabolic rate varies with the fourth power of absolute temperature
(living things behave like blackbody radiators).
Over the liquid temperature range of the solvents mentioned in the first
post (113-433 K) a 216-fold range of values is therefore possible.
	Creature core temperature (that of the most metabolically active
tissues) must be more than ambient to permit radiation of waste heat.
(Aside : The core temperature of birds and mammals ranges from
29-39 degrees Celsius).

Creature mass is approximately volume X solvent density :-
Solvent         Formula   Density of liquid (g/cc)
* Water         H2O         1.0  
* Hydrogen      H2O2        1.4
peroxide
* Ammonia       NH3         0.8 
* Nitric acid   HNO3        1.5 
* Nitrosyl      NOCl        1.4
chloride
* Hydrazine     N2H4        1.0   
* Hydrogen      HF          1.0
fluoride
* Sulphuryl     SO2Cl2      1.7
chloride
* Thionyl       SOCl2       1.6
chloride
* Sulphuryl     SO2F2       1.7   
fluoride
* Sulphur       SO2         1.4 
dioxide         
* Phosphorus    PF3         1.6 
trifluoride
* Phosgene      COCl2       1.4 
* Hydrogen      HCl         1.2
chloride
* Hydrogen      H2S         2.0
sulphide

	Let us consider an example.
	The PCs capture a 0.5kg 'methane-breathing' animal (about the size of a
rat) on an icy world (average surface temperature 240 K).
We shall assume the beast has a core temperature of 260 K.

Metabolic rate ~ (temp ratio)^4
For convenience we shall use a rat's core temperature for this
calculation :-

metabolic rate ~ (260/310)^4, or 0.49 that of a comparable mammal

metabolic rate in kJ/hour = 17.42 X (mass in kg)^0.75 for mammals

0.49 X 17.42 X (0.5)^0.75 = 0.59kJ/hr

This requires (0.59/20.15) L/hr of methane at 298K.

Using the ideal gas law, the volume of gas required at 240K is
 (0.59 X 240/(20.15 X 298)) = 0.024L per hour (24mLs).

N.B. The metabolic rate derived using the formula above is a basal one
(sitting quietly, reading, etc.) Metabolic rate can be increased by a
factor of eight with vigorous exercise
(e.g. cross country skiing).	

	Just for completeness :- what is the IR signature of our K'kree
guard?
	K'kree mass upwards of 500kg. Let's say he weighs in at 600kg
and behaves in physiological terms much like a terrestrial mammal.

Metabolic rate = 17.42 X (600)^0.75
               = 2111.8 kJ/hour
               = 586.6J/sec or 586.6W
In DSR terms, the K'kree has a passive IR sig of -2.5.

* Organ Physiology :-
The development of organs is a consequence of specialisation of
function. This section aims to touch on certain important functional
considerations.

i. Digestive system :- processes foodstuffs, breaking the constituents
into smaller molecules to facilitate absorption. These absorbed
compounds are either stored or distributed to working tissues as
required.
	In man, food is chewed to increase its surface area ; saliva
is secreted to moisten the bolus and begin digestion of carbohydrate ;
the food bolus is then propelled into the stomach, where acid and pepsin
are released to facilitate protein digestion. Food is then propelled
into the small intestine where it is exposed to digestive enzymes
released from the pancreas and bile, which helps emulsify fats.
Absorption takes place predominantly in the small intestine ; waste
material is dehydrated in the large intestine and stored pending its
expulsion.
	Other animals have variations on this basic theme e.g. multiple
stomachs to facilitate the digestion of cellulose in cattle.
	Absorbed material is conveyed to the liver - the body's
metabolite processing centre and either stored (carbohydrates ->
glycogen), shipped (fats to fatty tissue, sugars to the brain, etc.) or
spent.

ii. Cardiorespiratory :- a transport system is required to move
nutrients and wastes to and from the tissues and to exchange gaseous
substances with the atmosphere (lungs) or surrounding fluid (gills).
	Creatures that rely on liquids or solid reactants (e.g. sulphur
or hydrogen peroxide 'breathers') may have a combined digestive/
respiratory tract, as the volume of reactant required is small compared
to gases.
	Gas breathers will require a specialised lung or gill arrangement with
sufficient area to permit gas exchange (300 million
alveoli in man have a total surface area of 70m2). 
	A negative pressure gradient needs to be generated to draw air into the
lungs, which requires distensible lungs and a sealed muscle lined
compartment to hold them in.
	[The arrangement described for the K'kree in G:T Aliens Module
2, where a muscle lined windpipe and the 'gut booster' mechanism
(diaphragmatic pump) helps inflate two sets of lungs not
confined in a ribcage is plausible but inelegant].
	Very small creatures will have a network of interconnected air
pores or trabeculae to enable gas exchange by diffusion. The circulatory
system in insects is largely separate from the trabecular system,
serving mainly to shuttle nutrients from the gut.
	Specialised transport compounds will arise to convey
reactants in the case of the gaseous ones in most cases ; there is not
enough gas dissolved in a solvent to meet metabolic needs until very
low temperatures are attained (-100 Celsius or thereabouts).
	Haemoglobin is the oxygen transport compound in terrestrial
life ; it relies on an iron atom to co-ordinate with molecular oxygen
(and is the reason why blood is red).
	
[Aside : For fans of funny coloured blood :-
sulphated haemoglobin is brown,
reduced (met)haemoglobin is blue.
Copper-based compounds will be blue, green or red ;
Cobalt-based compounds will be red, pink or blue.]

Blood, whatever its chemical constitution (nitric acid as solvent?),
requires at least one pump to maintain its circulation. Multiple hearts
are frequently encountered in science fiction ; as long as the pumps are
co-ordinated so as to guarantee forward flow, all is well (as anyone who
has worked with circulatory assist devices in people will attest).
	Terrestrial life tends to have one primary heart and an 'informal'
system of pumping driven by surrounding muscles - vasomotion.
  	 
iii. Renal
The internal environment of an organism tends to remain stable despite
changes in nutrient flows, etc.
	In terrestrial life, the kidneys act primarily to regulate body fluid
composition and blood pressure, as a second level of control on
acid-base balance (carbon dioxide elimination from the lungs is the
primary controller), and eliminate nitrogenous (urea is one of the waste
products of protein breakdown) and other non-volatile wastes.

iv. Nervous
Command, control, and integration.
Feedback loops are a common motif in physiology :-
- - stimulus
- - interpret sensory inputs
- - determine appropriate response
- - relay instructions to effector systems
- - stimulus

The nervous system relies on electrical and chemical transmission of
information in order to rapidly adapt to a changing environment.
It displays plasticity - neurones will change the way they are
interconnected in response to stimuli.

Some sensory modalities :- vision/photoception ; galvanic (the electric
field organs of some fish) ; hearing (pressure receptor) ; taste and
smell (chemical analysis) ; touch (pressure, heat, cold, pain) ;
proprioception (joint and limb position) ; vestibular system
(accelerometry) 

v. Endocrine
Hormones are chemicals that mediate longer term changes in organ
function. These are under negative feedback control (so that when the
target condition is achieved the secretion of the stimulatory or
inhibitory hormone is decreased).
	The relevant glands are distributed throughout the body ;
canonically, the Hivers have one master gland located under the brain?

vi. Immune
The organism needs to protect itself from microbial and parasitic
threats. Recognition of 'self' and 'not-self' cells is an ancient
feature ; most worms have a developed immune system.
	Surveillance is conducted, as always, at borders - in the gut,
respiratory tract and the skin.

What's in the Next Post?
Body plans, and a little about evolution, plants and ecology.


Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:34:24 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: More Fun for the Marines

One other area the IM are probably going to see service is work cleaning up
after local wars - both in keeping an established peace, and more prosaic
work such as mineclearing and bomb squad work.

This will not be routine (why would the Imperium be interested in clearing
a bunch of mines from some godforsaken rock), but it could happen (the
Marquis wants it to happen, and his cousin-in-law the Admiral agrees).

I can just see the TAS Journal photopiece now - an Imperial Marine in full
battledress, searching for mines as a peasant drives his bullocks through
the rice paddy in background ...

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:21:36 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Imperial Marines

Shade wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
It would seem to me that Doug is essentially right.  Although I dont believe
that guard duty on a ship would require BD, I have to believe that a Marine
is going to be armed with that option at every turn.  The point is brought
up that in AHL people will snub pistols are taking down BD.  This seems
reasonable to a degree ( in the maze of the ship ), but as the writer said,
" in a battlefield, the guy with the pistol would be toast ".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Actually I said "on a *conventional* battlefield".

You know, the big area of mixed terrain, inhabited by big, organized
military units, heavy weapons, armored vehicles, artillery support?

IMO, these will be relatively rare - the Imperial military only has a major
war once a generation or so, the rest of the time they spend on
internal policekeeping. A Marine will probably see a lot of action, but
I'll bet it's more often of the small-scale variety. 

Is BD the appropriate uniform for counter-insurgency work? I don't mean
the final assault on the main rebel stronghold, I mean the day-to-day work?

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:32:50 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Leaving Geocities (OT)

Re the Geocities controversy: I took my pages off Geocities a
couple of years ago when they started forcing the owners of pages
on their system to put code on their pages that caused a pop-up
window to appear. (I &^@#% *hate* pop-up windows...) But this new 
development goes way too far.

All I can say is, when it comes to Geocities, it's worth
every cent you pay for it, but nothing more.


     Glenn St-Germain § Edmonton, Alberta, Canada 
cos90@powersurfr.com § http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn
        "There is no longer any normal to be"
                                 -- Gary Numan

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:04:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: The definition of 'To Secure' (was Re: My take ... (LONG!))

- --- Jeff Cornish <JCornish@appiangraphics.com> wrote:
>> While I have read your reasoning, I do not agree completely. Maximum

>> nessisary force yes. Take out the entire floor, yes. The whole 
>> building? No.  
> 
> You do know the how 'to secure a building' is interpreted by the
> branches of the United States Armed Forces.
> 
> If you order a Marine unit to secure a building they will either call
> in an airstrike, or set demolitions to level the building to the 
> ground.

So it was that marines that secured the Chinese embassy? Kidding, just
kidding.
 
> If you order an Army unit to secure a building, the unit will set up
> a fence and bunker to protect it.

Sounds about like my time in the airborne.

> If you order a Navy unit to secure a building, a guard will turn out
> the lights and lock the doors.

<snort>

> If you order an Air Force unit to secure a building, they will sign a
> long term lease agreement for it.

ROFL

> A Marine unit securing a site is a pretty serious bit of business,
> from what some of my ex-military friends have told me.

All I disagree with here is the use of maximum destruction. Controlled 
force is the key. If the marines land where a civil disorder is 
happening and kill everyone and destroy everything, that will 
spawn hatred of the Imperial forces and distrust for them. They MUST 
be more controlled. If not, call them stormtroopers and play star 
wars.

Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 00:01:45 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Cray OS (Was : Vilani Lies)

Jay Alverson said :

*SNIP*

>Anyone know what the OS looks like on a Cray?  (or the GUI, or whatever)
>Does it just use UNIX?  Or something better?

Spoke to a bloke who used one here and he said that (from the operator's
POV) it was MVS/OS-390.  Would that be about right ?

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 00:04:34 +1000
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

Chris Seamans said :

>However, I just got this great image in my head... MedTraders. The crews of
>these merchant ships include those who are well trained in high-tech medical
>techniques. They jump from world to world on a circuit selling what low-tech
>folks will pay most for: a way to circumvent disabilities. They carry the
>best generic prosthetics money can buy: arms, legs, eyes, high-tech
>pacemakers, stuff like that. Some see their role as a romantic ideal:
>providing relief to the unfortunate. Others, however, are opportunistic and
>they pore over newsfeeds and are often the first to arrive after rebellions,
>wars and disasters...

Now *that* is a cool idea.  Mind if I nick it ?
The image of the mercenary doctor ...  That's just the ticket for an
adventuring party as it easily caters for any mix of character motivations.

"Sure, I can give you back the use of your limbs.  What's it worth ..... ?"
*thumbing scalpel and glancing hungrily sideways at unfortunate*

Dave

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:16:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

- --- "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

> The book this proposal is for is the sourcebook to the *active duty*
> Imperial ground troops.  Not the retired, ex-Marines you see running
> around
> Free traders.  So the TO&Es and skill templates are going to reflect
> the
> needs of the Imperial will.

The problem there is that one becomes the other. Those retired marines 
will have come from the active duty. Most folks want characters will 
what they consider useful skills. They way you seem to be angling, very

few, if any, of the posters here on the TML would be satisfied. 
Why make it so that most users must handwave the characters to what 
is playable? You will propose the book as you want, and that is as 
it should be. However, I urge you to think about what we have said. 
Some kind of optional rules set perhaps or a varient set of templates.
If you don't, you can be certain that the most folks will stray from 
your vision of cannon in that area.

My appologies if this offends.

Terry
_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:20:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: 3dspace

>>WOW!
>>Can you tell me how to take three points on a grid and translate it into
>>bearing
>>and mark?
>>
>>"William F. Hostman" wrote:
>>
>>> To find distance from a to be with 3d coordinates:
>
>I'll do it, but not tonight.... Shall I do it as a small application? ;-)
>If I do, I'll post it to my web site (C++ source and a mac application)

actually, I did it last night... hehehe

to find it, click on "Traveller" in the upper right pane of
http://home.gci.net/~aramis

Enjoy!

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:20:04 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: Mercenary Doctors (was re: CT Skills)

David Healey wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Now *that* is a cool idea.  Mind if I nick it ?
The image of the mercenary doctor ...  That's just the ticket for an
adventuring party as it easily caters for any mix of character motivations.

"Sure, I can give you back the use of your limbs.  What's it worth ..... ?"
*thumbing scalpel and glancing hungrily sideways at unfortunate*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Add in the competition between these mercenary doctors and the
IISS department responsible for the controlled spread of technology
within the Imperium.

Now wouldn't this get the IISS's attention: a plague breaks out on a low
tech planet, a disease that isn't usually fatal, but tends to leave the victim 
blinded due to retinal damage. A "mercenary doctor" just happens to 
show up a week later, with a cargo bay topped off with cybernetic eyes...

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:33:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: "William F. Hostman" <aramis@gci.net>
Subject: 2300AD/Traveller 2300

>From: "Thomas Vickers" <redroach@flex.net>
>Subject: OT, sort of
>
>If you fill in all the occurrences of 2300 AD with  Traveller 2300 it should
>fit better here.
>Sorry to waste the time.
>
2300AD is simply the revised edition of Traveller 2300. It was apparently
renamed to avoid confusion with CT and MT.

William F. Hostman
Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis	ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
"Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:35:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

- --- Terry Mixon <tlmixon@yahoo.com> wrote:

> --- "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
> 
> > The book this proposal is for is the sourcebook to the *active
> duty*
> > Imperial ground troops.  Not the retired, ex-Marines you see
> running
> > around
> > Free traders.  So the TO&Es and skill templates are going to
> reflect
> > the
> > needs of the Imperial will.
> 
> The problem there is that one becomes the other. Those retired
> marines 
> will have come from the active duty. Most folks want characters will 
> what they consider useful skills. They way you seem to be angling,
> very
> few, if any, of the posters here on the TML would be satisfied. 
> Why make it so that most users must handwave the characters to what 
> is playable? You will propose the book as you want, and that is as 
> it should be. However, I urge you to think about what we have said. 
> Some kind of optional rules set perhaps or a varient set of
> templates.
> If you don't, you can be certain that the most folks will stray from 
> your vision of cannon in that area.

Correction. I made an assumption in stating that most folks would 
differ. I withdraw that line of the statement.

Terry

_________________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:45:20 -0600
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
Subject: MedTraders

David Healey wrote:
> 
> >However, I just got this great image in my head... MedTraders. The crews of
> >these merchant ships include those who are well trained in high-tech medical
> >techniques. They jump from world to world on a circuit selling what low-tech
> >folks will pay most for: a way to circumvent disabilities. They carry the
> >best generic prosthetics money can buy: arms, legs, eyes, high-tech
> >pacemakers, stuff like that. Some see their role as a romantic ideal:
> >providing relief to the unfortunate. Others, however, are opportunistic and
> >they pore over newsfeeds and are often the first to arrive after rebellions,
> >wars and disasters...
> 
> Now *that* is a cool idea.  Mind if I nick it ?
> The image of the mercenary doctor ...  That's just the ticket for an
> adventuring party as it easily caters for any mix of character motivations.

I like this idea myself, and will probably implement it IMTU.

Now, to calm down the profit-hungry private doctor ships, there will probably be
an organization like the Red Cross that does the same service, but charges far
less.

- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:48:17 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: Cray OS (Was : Vilani Lies)

At 12:01 AM 7/1/99 +1000, David Healey wrote:
>Jay Alverson said :
>>Anyone know what the OS looks like on a Cray?  (or the GUI, or whatever)
>>Does it just use UNIX?  Or something better?
>
>Spoke to a bloke who used one here and he said that (from the operator's
>POV) it was MVS/OS-390.  Would that be about right ?

That would be about right. So getting back to Traveller, you submit your
jobs in JCL (Job Control Language), which usually some guy who knows 
specifically about MVS has written for you, and an operator watches the
console and  varies the i/o devices you need on and off line.

Not what is happening on a Beowulf. To imagine later TL8 computers used
by free traders between Earth / Luna / Mars / the international space
station, there would be a graphical display of the planets, you would 
click where you want to go, and some sexy algorithm will determine what
gravity wells you should use as slingshots.



- -- 
Add a completely new dimension to science fiction adventure with
Robots.
Rob Brady                               robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:50:42 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Battle Dress

Im an ex CT player, I now use TNE, the battledress in this system is good
but not invulnerable. Also all those sensors people want on the suits
consume power, eating into battery life. Hope the supply boat arrives soon
my batteries out! No power to the suit to sensor information, no HUD, and
even if the plasma or fusion gun has ammo left try firing it without the
suits electronics to find the target.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:50:46 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses

Here comes the power consumption bill again, more gismoz on the suit, more
power consumed.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:50:43 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: More Battle Dress stuff

I seem to remember that the marines on the old Azhanti High Lightning class
ships were equipped with plasma weapons rather than fusion. Made a mess of
the electronic consoles when we fired them too, but hell they were old
ships, the navy would never need them.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:50:51 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <JCornish@appiangraphics.com>
Subject: FW: The definition of 'To Secure' (was Re: My take ... (LONG!))

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Cornish 
> Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 10:58 AM
> To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'
> Subject: The definition of 'To Secure' (was Re: My take ... (LONG!))
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 18:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Terry Mixon 
> <tlmixon@yahoo.com> did spill onto his keyboard:
> 
> > MARINE OPERATIONS
> > 
> > More than any other service, the Marines are dedicated to the raw
> > application of force.  Marines are not trained in the 
> peacekeeping or
> > limited operations that the Army excels at.  When the Marines engage
> > in combat, their creed is to use the maximum amount force 
> possible to
> > overwhelm and destroy the enemy in the minimal amount of time. 
> > Marines are infamous for using fusion weapons to destroy an entire 
> > building to root out a single sniper.
> 
> While I have read your reasoning, I do not agree completely. Maximum 
> nessisary force yes. Take out the entire floor, yes. The whole 
> building? No.  
> 
> You do know the how 'to secure a building' is interpreted by 
> the branches of the United States Armed Forces.
> 
> If you order a Marine unit to secure a building they will 
> either call in an airstrike, or set demolitions to level the 
> building to the ground.
> 
> If you order an Army unit to secure a building, the unit will 
> set up a fence and bunker to protect it.
> 
> If you order a Navy unit to secure a building, a guard will 
> turn out the lights and lock the doors.
> 
> If you order an Air Force unit to secure a building, they 
> will sign a long term lease agreement for it.
> 
> A Marine unit securing a site is a pretty serious bit of 
> business, from what some of my ex-military friends have told me.
> 
> Jeffrey Cornish
> 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #794
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 30 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 795



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Marines
FW: The definition of 'To Secure' (was Re: My take ... (LONG!))
Nuke-Powered Nanotech
Re: Xenobiology 101 : Scaling laws and some organ physiology (long)
Oops; was Re: Marines securing things...
RE: Regal class battlecruisers
An interesting twist...
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Leaving Geocities (OT)
Re: CT Skills
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen
Re: Re : Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: Xenobiology 101
Re: The Military & the Media...
Re: Hexagons
Re: Xenobiology 101

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:56:10 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <JCornish@appiangraphics.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

Doesn't MARINE stand for 'My Ass Rides In Nave Equipment.'  That's what my
housemates say (one ex-navy an one reserve).

;-)

Jeffrey

Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1999 13:42:06
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

At 10:41 AM 6/29/99 -0600, you wrote:

>Of course, if battledress *is* a highly specialized vehicle it seems seems
>somewhat ridiculous to say that every Imperial Marine learns the skill.
>After all, not every joe in an air force learns how to fly a fighter, nor
>does every member of an army know how to operate a tank. What about IM
>support personnel? What about marine fliers for interface craft or drivers
>for grav armor and artillery? Why waste time training them in battledress
>when they could better spend the time training in their own specialty?
About as ridiculous as modern USMC pilots keeping up their M-16A2
qualification.
You learn it because every Marine learns it. Someday, that Marine fighter
jock may be forced into a position where he has to suit and fight a
desperate rearguard action, just like a USMC F/A-18 pilot could find
himself leading a bunch of jarheads. 
In the template as written, the mandatory investment is a whopping 2 points
out of 140 for an average campaign. This gives you DX worth of the skill,
or Battlesuit (TL12)-10 for an average human.
>As written, the IM don't seem very autonomous. Rather, they look to me like
>highly specialized shock troops for the Imperial Navy. I guess that this
>might be a better model than the U.S. Marine model that a lot of people
>seem to be equating them with.
Bingo! We have a winner. The marines and Navy are part and parcel of the
Emperor's will. The Marines depend on the Navy for the vast majority of
their support and supply, and even to haul them around. The Imperial
Marine Force is nowhere near as autonomous as the USMC.

- - -- 
Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 07:56:20 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <JCornish@appiangraphics.com>
Subject: FW: The definition of 'To Secure' (was Re: My take ... (LONG!))

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Cornish 
> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 7:51 AM
> To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'
> Subject: FW: The definition of 'To Secure' (was Re: My take 
> ... (LONG!))
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Jeff Cornish 
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 1999 10:58 AM
> > To: 'traveller@lists.imagiconline.com'
> > Subject: The definition of 'To Secure' (was Re: My take ... (LONG!))
> > 
> > 
> > ------------------------------
> > 
> > On Mon, 28 Jun 1999 18:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Terry Mixon 
> > <tlmixon@yahoo.com> did spill onto his keyboard:
> > 
> > > MARINE OPERATIONS
> > > 
> > > More than any other service, the Marines are dedicated to the raw
> > > application of force.  Marines are not trained in the 
> > peacekeeping or
> > > limited operations that the Army excels at.  When the 
> Marines engage
> > > in combat, their creed is to use the maximum amount force 
> > possible to
> > > overwhelm and destroy the enemy in the minimal amount of time. 
> > > Marines are infamous for using fusion weapons to destroy 
> an entire 
> > > building to root out a single sniper.
> > 
> > While I have read your reasoning, I do not agree 
> completely. Maximum 
> > nessisary force yes. Take out the entire floor, yes. The whole 
> > building? No.  
> > 
> > You do know the how 'to secure a building' is interpreted by 
> > the branches of the United States Armed Forces.
> > 
> > If you order a Marine unit to secure a building they will 
> > either call in an airstrike, or set demolitions to level the 
> > building to the ground.
> > 
> > If you order an Army unit to secure a building, the unit will 
> > set up a fence and bunker to protect it.
> > 
> > If you order a Navy unit to secure a building, a guard will 
> > turn out the lights and lock the doors.
> > 
> > If you order an Air Force unit to secure a building, they 
> > will sign a long term lease agreement for it.
> > 
> > A Marine unit securing a site is a pretty serious bit of 
> > business, from what some of my ex-military friends have told me.
> > 
> > Jeffrey Cornish
> > 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:02:32 -0500
From: "Smart, David J (David)" <dasmart@lucent.com>
Subject: Nuke-Powered Nanotech

University Science has released a story about using nuclear power
for nano-devices. The excerpt below was taken from the full story
found at: http://unisci.com/stories/19992/0630995.htm


- --- quote ---
Harnessing Nuclear Energy On A Truly Tiny Scale

Extremely small amounts of radioactive material already perform
functions in smoke detectors, photocopiers, pacemakers and other
devices. Now a trio of University of Wisconsin-Madison engineers
envision tiny batteries turning a single microscopic gear...

Known as micro-electromechanical structures, or MEMS devices,
they tend to be smaller than a width of human hair, about 60 to
70 microns, Blanchard said. Because of their small size, they can
perform extremely precise functions in applications such as
medical equipment, environmental management and automobiles...
- --- endquote ---

What's really wild is that such devices can possibly be used in
the lubricants of machinery to sense when maintenance is needed,
according to the article.

Even if you're not running a G:T campaign, this can be additional
color for characters with high-TL Engineering/Mechanical skills.
Just another example of how to use nano-tech in Traveller without
it overwhelming a campaign.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:03:59 EDT
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 : Scaling laws and some organ physiology (long)

Oh, my.

Where were you when I was working on the rules for First In?

Giving me *lots* of things to think about. . .

- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:03:23 -0700
From: Jeff Cornish <JCornish@appiangraphics.com>
Subject: Oops; was Re: Marines securing things...

Mea culpa
 
Sorry for resending this several times.  My mailserver gave me the
impression that it had not gone through.  So of course my response (as a
grade one tech support type person) was to try it again.
 
Please direct flames to this strawman beside me.
 
 
 

Jeffrey Cornish
Appian Graphics Technical Support
E-Mail                mailto:jcornish@appiangraphics.com
<mailto:jcornish@appiangraphics.com> 

APPIAN GRAPHICS
18047 NE 68th St.
Suite B-100
Redmond, WA 98052

Internet:           http://www.appiangraphics.com
<http://www.appiangraphics.com/> 
Appian Sales and Support in Europe:  http://www.appian.dk
<http://www.appian.dk/> 
E-Mail: mailto:support@appiangraphics.com
<mailto:support@appiangraphics.com> 
Toll Free:          1 (800) 422-7369
Local or International:(425) 882-2020
BobCode K H E+++ m4 C B-15 O L S++++ T A H b3



 

 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:33:23 +0800
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Regal class battlecruisers

Anyone out there in the universe know whether any of the old TL14 Regal
class battlecruisers were returned to service prior to the big collapse to
fight in the 2nd Solomani Rim war? Or even if the Solomani may have had
examples of this class. Its styling always looked more Solomani than Vilani.

If anyone is interested I have done an interpretation of this class using
FFS1 (I use TNE) T4 just didn't get here (Western Australia) in sufficient
amounts to be a viable system.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:22:39 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: An interesting twist...

Just saw this while reading the daily news.  The postulation is that there
are potentially Earth-like planets that were ejected from the solar system...

Check the link and read on...

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/headlines/ts/story.html?s=v/nm/19990630/ts/space_
life_1.html

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 10:34:41 -0700
From: James Brewer <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>
Subject: Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

Sorry if this is a little late, but I'm just getting to this weekends posts.

<<
Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 07:47:29 -0600
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

>As the history old books say, it was to save the lives of all the GI's that
>would have to fight for the main islands, but the new books say that the
>American commanders knew the Japanese were about to capitulate, but did not
>tell Truman... the military simply wanted a live test bed for the two
>designs while they could use it against the monster that was Japan, the
>baby-eating rapists that they were (as they were seen at the time anyway).

This sounds to me like politically-correct historical revisionism...
The politically-correct of today are so horrified by the idea of the
use of atomic weapons that they gloss over the reasons for their use
in 1945: there was a war on. I am appalled by the peaceniks who every 
August 8 stage a protest shouting "No more Hiroshimas" -- I'll agree 
to that so long as they agree to the idea of "No more Pearl Harbors".
(The ironic part of all this: I'm a Canadian.)


In an effort to avoid another flamewar, an ObTrav:

The Imperium has been around for over 1100 years in the "present" of 
most Traveller campaigns. What kind of "historical revisionism" is there
in the year 1120 about past events? The Solomani Rim War and some of the
early pacification campaigns are probably good starting points... 

eg, What does a schoolchild in the Imperium learn about the Solomani
Rim War, and how does it differ from what a schoolchild in the Solomani
Confederacy learns?>>

As I remember in DGP's Solomani/Aslan supplement the Confederations
official name for the Solomani Rim War is the War for Solomani liberty or
the War for Independence.  Although the Imperium doesn't officially
recognize the Solomani Confederation it still has 2/3 of its prewar size.

Jim Brewer 







    

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:05:00 -0700
From: "Justice Hypercleats" <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Leaving Geocities (OT)

> Re the Geocities controversy: I took my pages off Geocities a
> couple of years ago when they started forcing the owners of pages
> on their system to put code on their pages that caused a pop-up
> window to appear. (I &^@#% *hate* pop-up windows...)
Amen!
> But this new  development goes way too far.
Yes it does.
>
> All I can say is, when it comes to Geocities, it's worth
> every cent you pay for it, but nothing more.
I don't know, when I am browsing on the web, I consciously avoid Geocities
sites unless the content sounds too interesting. Even then, those pop-up's
can drive you NUTS! Sometimes it seems if you let the first page load
totally, the pop-up can be closed without it coming back on going to a
deeper page. Sometimes. Pop-ups suck. ;)

BZA

////////////////////////////////////////
 Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so- zh- vi-  A523
IMTU tc++ ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:49:48 -0400
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

At 12:15 AM 6/30/99 -0500, you wrote:
<<snip>>
>Yes! Advanced Classic Traveller is alive in my game world. In 1975 I was
>introduced to Traveller and have been involved in role-playing and refing a
>Traveller universe ever since. I like the way Traveller developed
characters on
>a year-by-year basis and not just throwing a fixed number of skills points
at a
>PC. But I also felt that the character generation rollup was weak and somewhat
>unrealistic. So I decided to create a much more comprehensive and realistic
>system. I’ve spent hundreds of hours during the past twenty four years
>developing a better system that provides a much more dynamic and realistic PC.
>There’s an overview of the chargen system I have been using over the years. 
>This
>includes an extensive pre-service background:
<<snip>>

This sounds a lot like FGU's Freedom Fighters.  FF takes the prize as the
most detailed and time consuming chargen I've ever seen.  One character to
the better part of 8 hours...Then again, I love detail.  One player had a
severe attack of the stupids and got himself killed three hours into the
first session...

Kurt Feltenberger

"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations, 
   may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
     ~Stephen Decatur


mailto:kurt@blazenet.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:18:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

In mail you write:

> Yep, I started in Artillery!  I'm pretty sure I would have been able to fire
> over hills at targets I never knew what were what!  Although, during WWII,
> there was a high incidence of bomber pilots and crew that suffered mental
> problems from bombing faceless targets too!  We are complex animals...

Well, one *big* difference between artillery and bombers is that the
bomber crews *see* the target, even if they don't see the people there.
And since a *lot* of the targets were cities, I'd says it's not *that*
big a jump. After all, one city looks much like another from the air.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:45:50 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: First In: Problems with WorldGen

In mail you write:

Warning, I don't have the book you are using, so my answers may not match.

> 1.) How does a worldbuilder figure out a blackbody temp for a moon? In the
> formula B=(278 * Fourth Root of L) / Square root of R (p. 75) is R the
> radius of the parent world's orbit in the case of a moon?

Probably.

> 2.) Are there any special considerations for the moons of gas giants in
> general?

I'd say that you need to check for radiation belts. Jupiter's will kill
you in short order. Any settelements on its moons will have to be well buried.

> 5.) What kind of life can exist on Hostile worlds? (Look down for specific
> questions)
>
>     a.) Hostile (SG): "A gas subgiant close enough to its primary star may
> support life." (p. 68) What is "close enough" exactly? What type of life can
> it support?

I assume they mean close enough for water to exist as a liquid.

>     b.) Hostile (N): "Terra itself was a nitrogen world early in its
> history, before the advent of photosynthetic life." Does this mean it's
> possible for a Hostile (N) world to support very primitive,
> non-photosynthetic life?

Sure, but you are talking *really* primitive. Single-celled sludge.

>     c.) Hostile (A): "If an ammonia world is warm enough, it may have oceans
> of liquid water and ammonia in a so-called "eutectic" mixture. Such a world
> may support life." What is warm enough, exactly? It would appear that the
> only Hostile (A) worlds that can appear only appear in the Outer Zone, where
> it doesn't seem that they could actually be warm enough.

Warm enough depends on a lot of things. The mix of water & ammonia for
one. Pressure will play a part also. I don't have the phase diagrams
for a water/ammonia mixture. But I understand that they get really odd.

Check out Hal Clement's book "Star Light" for an example of a
water/ammonia world. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:24:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re : Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> Robert O'Connor wrote:
>
>> Folks, would it be worthwhile starting a series on alien building?
>
> Ooo, yeah yeah yeah!
>
>>
>> I'd be happy to start in with biochemistry and physiology.
>
> Just steer it clear of Star Trek's funny foreheads and odd-coloured
> bodily fluids and I'll be happy!

Actually, the "odd colored bodily fluids" isn't that strange. Even on
Terra we've got examples of several chemicals *other* than hemoglobin
being used for oxygen transport. And they are all markedly colored.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:27:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> Hypercleats writes:
> "I am glad to see this thread morph into such informative 
> discussion. Missiles bore me, aliens are cool. (Beavis giggle)"
>
>         Aliens are cool, but I like missiles too  :-)
>
> "Thus it is nice to have another "grabber", but this deeloped 
> later and is not a limb. Imagine a prehensile tail on, oh, say 
>  bird type critter that is marsupial. Now that sounds alien 
> with terran proven forms."
>
>         I like the tail-bird! Some Terran birds use their beak 
>         as a third "hand," and other forms may spring to mind:
>         prehensile nose? ears? wattle?

You missed the most "obvious" prehensile appendage. At least it's
on\bvious to folks who've spent much time around cattle. A bull's penis
is *very* prehensile. 

Of course, there *are* evolutionary disadvantahes to having damage to
your manipulatory appendage interfere with your ability to reproduce.

And I want to see the look on the player's face when he finds out what
he just "shook" when greeting the alien ambassador. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:39:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
> "Well, unless evolution follows a *really* different path, 
> life is still going to start in the water and move onto land 
> later."
>
>         No argument there. It is hard (though perhaps not
>         impossible) to imagine life evolving without a solvent
>         such as water.

Well, there *is* some speculation that the surfaces of certain feldspar
derived clays served as a template for the earliest self-replicating
molecules. 

> "We've seen three cases of this on Earth (four if you count 
> plants).
>
> 1. Arthopods moved onto the land from seaside areas. (Crabs, etc). 
> 2. Insects either moved onto the land or evovled from arthropods.
> 3. lungfish crawled between shallow lakes/puddles.
>
> The first two are limited by exoskeletons. The third isn't."
>
>         "Plants" may have colonized terrestrial environments more 
>         than once, though the early colonizers did not seem to
>         fossilize well. Insects are arthropods, but I'm not sure
>         what you mean by "limited by exoskeletons." Exo- and
>         Endo- skeletons have advantages and disadvantages.

But the limits of exo-skeletons select *againt* large sizes.

> "You will *not* find an insect that lives under Earth-like 
> conditions that has a point more than an inch from the 
> surface of its body. That's the max distance that air can 
> diffuse thru the spiracles that insects use for respiration."
>
>         Once again, the question should not be "what do we have
>         on Terra?" For your information, there is active movement
>         of air in and out of insect trachea (the spiracles are
>         just the openings of the trachea). I have no doubt that
>         the size of animals with respiratory systems like insects
>         is limited, but I'm not sure that even the largest insects
>         that have walked our planet represent that limit.

The folks writing the stuff I've read seem to be fairly sure. 

> Spiders get bigger because they have a rudimentary form of lung.
>
>         Are the biggest spiders bigger than the biggest insects?

Yep. Even a "typical" tarantula has a body that's far bigger than any
insect can have. And there are spiders with bodies even larger. The
infamous "bird-eating" spider comes to mind.

BTW, one of the big limits on exoskeletons is a combination of lack of
leverage as the limbs get larger, and problems with load bearing at
joints. There's just too much "stuff" going through the joints. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:46:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> Probably not generalized, but just last night I saw a show on TLC
> regarding a herpetologist who was quite surprised when his grown,
> handraised female rattlesnake gave birth to a male offspring. Uhh, did I
> mention that the snake in question had lived its entire life in a glass
> aquarium in his lab out of contact with other snakes? They're waiting
> for the male to reach sexual maturity to see if it is fertile. If so,
> this has BIG implications for rattlesnake population studies...
>
> I would be surprised if it were a generalized trait of all reptiles, but
> I'll be equally surprised if parthenogenesis _isn't_ more widespread in
> reptile populations that we currently think...they're not exactly the
> most well-studied critters on the planet...

Uhm... slight detail problem here. Parthogenesis can produce *female*
offspring. It can't produce *male* offspring (the mother doesn't have
any Y chromosomes). 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:54:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media...

In mail you write:

> At Ft. Benning, my spotter and I were working a patrol of IOBC (Infantry
> Officer Basic Course) students.  These are guys who have been commissioned,
> but still have to learn how to be infantry types.
>
> We were trying to figure out who was in charge (does the term Chinese Fire
> Drill mean anything to y'all), when Gordon told me to look in a certain
> direction.  "Tell me that I'm not seeing this."  Since I had much better
> magnification on the scope than he had on the binocs, I obliged.
>
> And there he was.  About 40m away from the rest of the patrol, and behind
> some trees, one of the LTs had decided to stop and..  ummmm... enjoy the
> view.  With his pants around his ankles.  I kid you not.
>
> This was too good to pass up.  I picked the target closest to our friend,
> and shot him (MILES laser tag system) this of course set off an immediate
> action drill.  I then started peppering the wanker with near misses, just
> enough to make his buzzer make bleeping noises that said that a bullet had
> passed close enough to hear.
>
> Sure enough, the rest of the patrol ran towards the guy, and found him
> cowering in the dirt, BDUs still wrapped up in his boots.  The laughter was
> clear even at 200m.

ROFL!

You've just given me an idea for an *evil* pysch warfare weapon. 

We all know about the "bouncing betty" aka "castrator mine". 

Well, picture a mine intended to be deployed in the "right" sort of
terrain. It has simple chemical and moisture sensors. It waits for the
unique signature of a troopie taking "the pause that refreshes" and
homes in on the source (alternately, fires a small explosive projectile
at the source). Obviously, a much smaller than normal charge will do,
since body armor won't be a factor.

Deployed properly, you could have the troops too scared to take a dump
or a leak outside their perimeter. This tends to disrupt patrols
considerably. 

Even nastier is a biological weapon. A sort of tick, chigger, or other
small to medium sized insect that responds to the same "cues" and leaps
at the target and starts *burrowing*. It can be species specific, or
perhaps respond to differing chemical signatures caused by differing
diets. So the natives are safe and only the imported troops are at risk.

Yes, these are "sick" weapons. But they serve their purpose admirably.
They make troops *very* unwilling to go out in the field.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:31:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hexagons

In mail you write:

> Phil Kitching wrote:
>
>> At 21:20 24/06/1999 +0100, John Buston <John.Buston@tesco.net> wrote:
>> >>I am moving stars out of the center of their
>> >>hexagons in order to make more believable star maps.
>
> Observation: While dinking around with hex paper and polyhedrons, I
> noticed that apparently twenty tetrahedrons make an icosahedron, and
> as far as I can tell this can be continued as a pattern out from each
> exterior point making twelve more icosahedrons intersecting the
> first, and so on.

Nope. If you have enough 4 sided dice you'll find that you *cannot*
construct an icosahedron out of tetrahedrons. There will be gaps.
Significant ones. 

Tetrahedra cannot be used to "fill" space. Cubes can, and so can a
*mix* of tetrahedra and octahedra. No other regular polyhedrons will
"fill space". 

> If you consider each of those points to be a "space", you can map
> them on multiple layers of hex paper.  Each sheet must alternate so
> that two held up to the light show a pattern like that Escheresque
> cube inversion we all doodle while on the phone(well, I do), and
> three held to the light appear as isometric paper. You could add
> depth to your galaxy too, but astrogation will involve more page
> turning.  Might work better with transparencies.

Nice idea, but as I note above it doesn't really work. 

If I ever go to 3-d "maps" they'll either be computerized (possibly
even using "3-D" glasses) or they'll be *models*. Basicly, small
plastic beads on *really* fine wire. Use thicker, painted wire to
indicate X-boat routes. Then you can pick up the "map" and look at it
from different angles.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:39:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
> "Well, unless evolution follows a *really* different path, 
> life is still going to start in the water and move onto land 
> later."
>
>         No argument there. It is hard (though perhaps not
>         impossible) to imagine life evolving without a solvent
>         such as water.

Well, there *is* some speculation that the surfaces of certain feldspar
derived clays served as a template for the earliest self-replicating
molecules. 

> "We've seen three cases of this on Earth (four if you count 
> plants).
>
> 1. Arthopods moved onto the land from seaside areas. (Crabs, etc). 
> 2. Insects either moved onto the land or evovled from arthropods.
> 3. lungfish crawled between shallow lakes/puddles.
>
> The first two are limited by exoskeletons. The third isn't."
>
>         "Plants" may have colonized terrestrial environments more 
>         than once, though the early colonizers did not seem to
>         fossilize well. Insects are arthropods, but I'm not sure
>         what you mean by "limited by exoskeletons." Exo- and
>         Endo- skeletons have advantages and disadvantages.

But the limits of exo-skeletons select *againt* large sizes.

> "You will *not* find an insect that lives under Earth-like 
> conditions that has a point more than an inch from the 
> surface of its body. That's the max distance that air can 
> diffuse thru the spiracles that insects use for respiration."
>
>         Once again, the question should not be "what do we have
>         on Terra?" For your information, there is active movement
>         of air in and out of insect trachea (the spiracles are
>         just the openings of the trachea). I have no doubt that
>         the size of animals with respiratory systems like insects
>         is limited, but I'm not sure that even the largest insects
>         that have walked our planet represent that limit.

The folks writing the stuff I've read seem to be fairly sure. 

> Spiders get bigger because they have a rudimentary form of lung.
>
>         Are the biggest spiders bigger than the biggest insects?

Yep. Even a "typical" tarantula has a body that's far bigger than any
insect can have. And there are spiders with bodies even larger. The
infamous "bird-eating" spider comes to mind.

BTW, one of the big limits on exoskeletons is a combination of lack of
leverage as the limbs get larger, and problems with load bearing at
joints. There's just too much "stuff" going through the joints. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #795
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 30 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 796



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: Ca-li-for-nium, here I come!...(was Re: Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...)
Re: Battle Dress
Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses
List down again?
Re: Battle Dress
Re: Yahoo/Geocities Warning
Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses
RE: List down again?
Avoiding Pop-Ups [OT]
Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)
Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")
Re: Re Platinum
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)
Re: The Uplift Question
Re: Shipping stuff
Re: Webpage Query (was What is a month?)
Re: First In - Aion homeworld errata

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:54:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

In mail you write:

> Hypercleats wrote:
>> 
>> >
>> > I saw something recently on either Discovery channel or The Learning
>> > Channel about the development of robots. Various robot designs have been
>> > tried. It turns out that the four-legged ones offer the best combination
>> > of stability and power usage.
>> 
>> What about tripods?
>
> They weren't covered for some reason. 

Mainly because nobody is building them. No models in nature.

>> > I'm no biologist, but it seems to me that any ground-dwelling species
>> > will evolve the same way. Natural selection will eliminate all but the
>> > most efficient designs, given enough time.
>> 
>> Now this is a good framework to go from. But some alien life may exist in a
>> more viscous medium than water or air. I think they might have some more
>> leniency given to their form. Maybe?

But more viscous also means that it's *harder* to move.

> Agreed. Also, the different gravitational forces on other worlds will
> alter the power required for locomotion. On low-G worlds, six-legged
> creatures could well be larger, because they don't require as much
> energy to move.

Actually, six legs *always* require more energy than 4 legs. Think
about it. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:12:27 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Ca-li-for-nium, here I come!...(was Re: Corpsman! My legs are broken... again...)

Matthew Bond writes:
> 
> Vehicles p184 sidebar "It also does not apply to unsealed personal armor or
> battlesuits..."

Yes, but commando battledress is sealed (there are a wide variety of problems
with how explosives work in GURPS.  

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:09:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

Douglas E. Berry writes:
>> The much maligned Scout/Commando BD in _Star Mercs_ has:
> 
> 10 mile AESA (Active sensor)
> 5 mile PESA (Passive sensor)
> 1 mile passive sonar
> .5 mile geophone
> 2 mile radscanner
> .1 mile gravscanner
> Level 10 surveillance sound detector

Wow.  Yet more rather silly tech.  Passive sonar is only useful if you're going
swimming, and not very useful there with that little range.  A geophone is
useful for detecting heavy objects on the ground.  Hm...oh that's really
relevant in traveller at TL 9+.  As for the gravscanner -- that's too low range
to be worth _anything_ (it was also unclear whether the tech is actually
available in GT, which is why the grav tanks don't have gravscanners.  They hav
enough waste space to add one, though).

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:27:55 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Antony Farrell <Skaran@bigpond.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 12:50 AM
Subject: RE: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses


> Here comes the power consumption bill again, more gismoz on the suit, more
> power consumed.
>

LOL!!

This reminds me of bubblejet printers.  Supplied very cheaply (often free
with some systems), but when you have to replace consumables -- Holy
Snapping Duck Shiiiiit!

ObTrav:  What is the upkeep of BD?  Do local governments have a choice in
forces used on their worlds?

"Yes, I understand this civil war is getting out of hand and disrupting
vital supplies manufactured locally.  Yes, yes, I understand the Imperium
has no choice but to step in now.  Oh yes I do know that.  What?  Oh please
sir, another few weeks is neither here nor there... I do not want Imperial
Marines anywhere near my world!  Send me the army or we will oppose the
Imperium's entry into this conflict*"

Yes, I understand such a threat shouldn't mean a lot if the Imperium has
chosen to move... but it may have certain political ramifications that those
in need of rescue oppose being rescued this way -- The truth being stranger
than fiction credo can also apply to RPG's.

And the reason for not wanting IM's to come to the rescue?  Cost, the
facelessness of IM's in their suits, fear, hated by the general public, and
their habit of overkill...

IM Cmdr:  Several enemy forces with auto rifles in that building... get me a
micronuke.
IM 2IC:  But Sir, that building is adjacent to the President's home, you
will destroy everything around it.
IM Cmdr:  Gee, I hope the President isn't home!  LOAD!!!!

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:00:37
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: List down again?

If anybody sees this, could you mail me?  I haven't gotten list mail all
day.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 13:31:04 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Antony Farrell <Skaran@bigpond.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 12:50 AM
Subject: RE: Battle Dress


> Im an ex CT player, I now use TNE, the battledress in this system is good
> but not invulnerable. Also all those sensors people want on the suits
> consume power, eating into battery life. Hope the supply boat arrives soon
> my batteries out! No power to the suit to sensor information, no HUD, and
> even if the plasma or fusion gun has ammo left try firing it without the
> suits electronics to find the target.
>

In comic style... I'm assuming the power doesn't run out until after the
battle is over?  Or unless the plot device dictates it?

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 19:08:55 EDT
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Yahoo/Geocities Warning

Gee that really does suck big time but ya know...despite their fancy 
announcement it doesn't really sound too legal to just "declair" that all the 
stuff on their service belongs to them, some lawyer's gonna tear them up bad 
I predict, not to mention the fact that everyone will abandon them faster 
than you can say "Emperor Strephon!!  Duck!!"

Maybe that's what the new owner wants though...to destroy the company and 
thus have a tax write off.

TAS

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:29:02 -0400
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses

>>From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
>>Subject: RE: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses
>>
>>The effective range of man portable plasma and fusion guns is not all that
>>good.Plus the fact that the marine trooper is in a nice set of armour, which
>>not only sets off a hole bunch of remote sensors, after all what was the
>>battle computer and sensor arrays for? It may also have enough ground
>>pressure to set off anti-armour land mines. Plus at the lower tech levels,
>>and after the rebellion got into full swing lower tech armour became more
>>widespread, in TNE at least, the trooper in a loaded battlesuit had both
>>Agility and Initiative penalties. No wonder the army guys had all those
>>light anti-armour missiles.
>
>One of Roderick's very early designs was a very heavy rifle designed for
>use within battledress.

Ahhhh yes, the Crunch Gun.  Based on the 14.5mm Norwiegan(?) anti-tank
rifle.  They used skis to trek it around the countryside.  Perfect answer
to the classic smash and grab TNE scenario ("There's a *hole* in his
F*cking Armor!").

>Plasma/fusion guns are nice clamshells, but I can't
>see why a trooper in BD couldnt use some sort of chain gun from the hip. Or
>lug a dirty great big recoiless rifle.

<Buzzzz> Thank you for playing.

The Imperial Navy logistics infrastructure dictates that the BD Marine
trooper carry a weapon that does not require resupply, such as an energy
weapon or a laser weapon (which is also an energy weapon I guess).

Carrying something that takes real ammo brings up all sorts of potential
resupply difficulties.  The best course of action is to use weapons which
do not require ammo.  Exceptions, of course, exist.

>One of the key points about the survivability of BD troops is the efficacy
>of BD point defense. Rocket-propelled grenades are a too-obvious
>countermeasure to BD for them to lack defenses against it.

Back to the tiny, turret mounted radar guided point defense gun on board
BD.  I thought this was a freaky idea when it first was floated.  Then when
it was published I nearly ruined a keyboard.

I felt then and still feel now that Battle Dress is stealthy, and the
"active defense" of a BD trooper is to kill the GL gunner before he is in
range, or not provide a target after he is in range.  Battle Dress is a
very capable tool for a soldier to have, not a cure-all for the dangers of
the battlefield.

>If I was building BD, I'd certainly build it with a grav belt, which should
>reduce the contact mine problem (mines with prox fuses of various sorts,
>OTOH will be an issue for all troops).

The power required to constantly run a grav belt at TL15 or less makes the
image of the BD trooper constantly hovering a few centimeters above the
ground unlikely.  On the other hand, battle dress is not particularly
susceptable to most mines, except those specifically designed to defeat it.
I think vehiclular mines would *not* be set off by BD (The weight is a lot,
but not what the lightest military vehicles weigh, and more sophisticated
mines will be designed *not* to go off for BD, but to wait for real
vehicles) and most anti-personnel mines are shrapnel makers to which the BD
is generally immune.  The purpose built anti-BD mine has a thin penetrator
set vertically about 6" below the surface, a pressure trigger (that
activates when the pressure goes on) sets off a small charge which drives
the 'spike' right up through the foot of the BD trooper and hopefully
through the leg and body as well.  Such a mine would be set for about #400,
more than the largest man and most animals, but less than the average BD
suit.

Note that the materials must not be metal, and the mines cannot give off
any heat (even batteries give off trace amounts).  Otherwise detecting them
would be much too simple a matter.

All this is, of course, IMTU.  All the usual disclaimers intended to
prevent flame wars apply.

Pete


                      Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"A Good Traveller has no fixed plans and no intent on arriving."
  -Lao Tzu (570-490 BC)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:46:49 -0700
From: "Jesse DeGraff" <fenris@slip.net>
Subject: RE: List down again?

Hey Doug,
I've gotten some small amount of TML traffic today, say about 15 messages.

Jesse

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.imagiconline.com]On Behalf Of Douglas E.
> Berry
> Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 11:01 AM
> To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com
> Subject: List down again?
> 
> 
> If anybody sees this, could you mail me?  I haven't gotten list mail all
> day.
> -- 
> 
> Doug Berry
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 20:33:18 MST
From: Jim Moss <jkmoss@hotmail.com>
Subject: Avoiding Pop-Ups [OT]

It's simple...just turn off Java and JavaScript.  I only turn them on when I 
go to a site where I find I need them.  I love seeing the code for a pop-up 
show up as raw HTML on the bottom of a Geocities page, knowing I'm thwarting 
them, if only ever-so-slightly.  For a long time before I learned that 
trick, I actually kept a list of Geocities pop-up sponsors, and deliberately 
avoided visiting them.  I'd skip Geocities completely, but too many people 
have too much cool stuff there.

Maybe not for much longer.

Jim


_______________________________________________________________
Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:58:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (was Evolution of number of legs)

In mail you write:

> ringrose@ascent.com wrote:
>> 
>>   From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
>> 
>>   The six-legged robots were stable, but required too much power for
>>   motion. The power required increased exponentially the larger the robots
>>   got, which might explain why the only species on Earth that have six
>>   legs are very small.
>> 
>> If you are going to move with substantial speed, you are not going to
>> be statically stable.  I can't think of _any_ creature which regularly
>> moves in a statically stable manner.  So this data point regarding the
>> six-legged robots is not applicable.
>> 
>
> I don't understand. Picture, say, a cheetah, the fastest land animal on 
> Earth. Why isn't that statically stable?
>
> Or perhaps I should ask you to define "statically stable". To me, that means
> that it will not topple over when at rest. Is that the wrong definition?

Yep. "Statically stable" means that if you *froze* the motion at any
point, the critter wouldn't fall over. "Static" equals "not moving". 

Insects are statically stable because they use their six legs as a
*pair* of tripods. So, for instance, they'll have the front and back
right legs and the mid left leg "planted" while they move the other
three to a new position. Once they are in position, the insect shifts
its center of gravity from being over the first tripod of legsd to
being over the second. Once it's over the second tripod, the first set
of three legs is free to move. But at no point is the insect in an
unstable position.

Dynamicly stable is stuff that's stable *only* because it is moving.
For example, when you walk, your center of gravity is ahead of your
feet. You are continually "falling" forward, but placing your feet so
as to keep from completing the fall.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:14:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Military & the Media (Or "Personalities In Traveller")

In mail you write:

>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>> I suspect that the "recoil" answer is given because it's not *possible*
>> to explain the feelings to someone who hasn't been there. And that's
>> why the question is asinine. Any sort of *meaningful* answer is far to
>> long and complex for a soundbite.
>
> Why is a question asinine if it can't be answered meaningully in a
> soundbite?  If a question calls for a long, complex, and meaningful
> answer, it sounds like a very interesting and useful question to me.

My (somewhat buried) point was that modern "reporters", especially TV
reporters don't *want* long, complex answers. They want a quick, simple
answer. A "soundbite". 

Think back over the new broadcasts you've watched recently. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:07:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Re Platinum

In mail you write:

>>It does keep a good edge. I knew a derrikman with a platinum pocketknife...
>>a rather expensive utility toy.
>
> Quite expensive I'd say.
>
> I'd only ever dealt with it a few times at work. I'm no metallurgist, but it
> felt like the kind of metal that would hold a good edge.

Keep in mind the fact that "native platinum" (ie loose nuggets of the
metal) are actually a *mix* of platinum, iridium, osmium, etc. As such
they are *damned* hard. 

Platinum-iridium alloys are used for certain measurement standards
*because* they are so hard to deform. And osmium-iridium alloys are
used in the Osmiroid pens because it takes next to forever to dull the
pen tip (paper being *very* abrasive).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:13:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

In mail you write:


>> Well, the good news is that the planet wouldn't be there when the debris
>> cloud came back. Not the first time, anyway.
>
> This is a sure bet? Is it because if the object hurled is hurled at
> any speed not within a tight margin of error it won't come back at
> all, thus at the right speed to enter orbit it has an orbital period
> similar to it's launch planet?

It's like this. The period of an orbit is determined by the length of
the semi-major-axis. For a circle, this is the radius. For an ellipse,
it's half the long axis. 

The *perfect* "drop it into the sun" orbit is a degenerate ellipse (aka
a straight line) with a focus at each end. So the semi-major axis is
1/2 the distance to the center of the star. 

Kepler's third law says that for bodies orbiting the same primary the
semi-major axis cubed divided by the period squared equals a constant. 

Thus:

	1^3     .5^3
       ----- = ------  
        1^2      P^2

         1    .793
        --- = -----
         1     P^2

        P^2 = .793
        P = .89

So the period of the "junk" will be roughly 89% of the period of the
planet it was dumped from. So if you dumped it from Earth on Jan 1,
it'd be back at that point in Earth's orbit about 325 days later
(around Nov 21).

> Could this cloud become a permanent or semi-perm system feature?

Unlikely. It'll be expanding and dissipating. And every periastron more
of the material will either be capturing by the star or driven into
even more divergent orbits by light pressure and stellar wind effects.

It'd also be *really* small, unless you were accumulating truly
*awesome* amounts of wastes. Consider that a measly 1 km diameter
asteroid has a volume of 523,598,775.6 cubic meters and a mass of over
2 *billion* tons. So your waste shipment is going to be pretty trivial
compared with that. And that's a *minor* body in a star system.

> I know alot of variables are still being left, open such as how much
> waste, what sort of world, steller type, etc.

Actually, most of those variables "drop out". That is, they don't
really affect the situation that much.

>> The trick with hitting the star is that it takes *very* little sideways
>> velocity to turn an "impact" orbit into a "grazing" orbit.
>
> Little enough to be caused by steller winds? Solar flare?

If you do it right, you are approaching "head on", so those effects
would merely delay the impact a *tiny* bit. They can't give it a
sideways component unless it is *already* moving sifeways. If it *is*
then they'll magnify the effects somewhat.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:38:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

In mail you write:

>   Vaguely related, I recall an old SF short of near-future lowish
> tech shipping in the Solar System, where the critical hazard (IIRC)
> for the protagonist was investigating the history of a debris field
> dumped overboard* from a distressed vessel several decades before.
> This unknown drift or swarm of lead bricks* from this freighter
> inflicted carnage on this transit, was then implicated in a past
> disappearance (?), and could be charted if enough data could be
> gathered, which included using informed guesswork to browbeat crucial
> admissions from one of the few surviving ancients who knew the
> dreadful truth of their ships escape from disaster.

>  * yes, they dumped hundreds of lead bricks from their reactor shielding
>   while at high relative velocity to much of the system. Anyone remember
>   the various KKM discussions? :>  And, yes, this was illegal, too...
>
>   The title (& author) escapes me, but IIRC the feature was called the
> Sunflower Drift after the vessel. The authors name might have been White?

"Deadly Litter" by James White. Alas, he made an *incedibly* stupid
error. He didn't understand the concept of "escape velocity". 

Since the ships in question were "constant boost" ships, even if the
acceleration was fairly low, the velocities of the "litter" were in the
hundreds of kilometers per second range dut\ring much of the trip. And
solar escape velocity at Earth orbit is ony about 40 km/sec. 

Thus, the junk would be on hyperbolic trajectories and *never* return. 
For that matter, stuff at velocities *close* to system escape could
take *millienia* to come back. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:11:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: dumping toxics (was: Shipping stuff)

In mail you write:

> On Wednesday, June 23, 1999 8:04 PM
> Leonard Erickson said,
>
>> You can get the package to the sun quicker by adding a radial component
>> to the velocity, and that *will* reduce the effect of any remaining
>> tangential velocity. But it takes a *lot* of extra radial velocity to
>> make a difference.
>
> Couldn't you transform some of the tangential velocity by either deflecting
> the container off of a stationary object or use a gravitational body such as
> a moon to impart radial velocity?

There *aren't* any "stationary objects". And at the velocities
involved, you don't deflect, you splash.

Gravity sling manuevers get used all the time. But they trade initial
fuel use for *long* travel times. Given Traveller tech levels, it's not
worth it. Too many more things that could go wrong. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:16:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: The Uplift Question

In mail you write:

> Antony Farrell wrote:
>> 
>> The here in Australia, it seems we have so many overseas commitments that
>> more of our armed forces are overseas than at home. Mind-you they do have 
> to
>> have a whip around to buy ammunition.
>
> IIRC, Fiji actually _does_ have more ground forces overseas in
> peacekeeping forces than at home.  From what I understand, the money
> paid to Fiji as compensation for providing peacekeepers is a major part
> of the military budget.
>
> ObTrav:  Dorsai or Metzadan Mercenary Corps, anyone?

You can have the Metzadans. I'll take the Dendarrii Mercenary Fleet. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:49:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipping stuff

In mail you write:

> Picture this, a waste stream needs to be disposed yet the price of recycling
> or proper disposal results in a red ink.  Someone comes a long and says for
> a very low price I'll take the problem off your hands no fuss no muss.
> Perhaps that someone looks legitimate and charges what appears to be what is
> the legitimate market price yet they make an even better profit by improper
> disposal.  I've seen both circumstances.

<interesting scenarios skipped>

Here are some scenarios based on historical details (and in one case on
an *actual* occurence!).

Planet A has just started processing petroleum to make kerosene for
lamps. This results in a lot of tar that they use on roads, and a bunch
of distillate that's *too* volatile to use. They are just dumping it.
Along comes a merchant who offers to haul it off for a small fee. He
hauls it to plent B which has just started using internal combustion
engines. He's able to *sell* the gasoline at an incredible profit. :-)

An offworlder is going around offering to re-roof various buildings for
*free*. He's got a bunch of mumbo jumbo about why, but after he finally
gets someone to accept his offer, and the new roof proves to be good,
he's swamped with customers. He only makes the offer to *some* places
though. He's nice enough to haul off and dispose the old roofing.

What's *realy* going on? The buildings have lead sheet roofing (quite
common in some areas and periods). He found out that one particular
lead mine in this area had a *high* silver content in the lead. It'd
gone unnoticed due to primitive assaying and refining techniques of the
time. He's tracked down the places that were roofed with lead from this
mine. He bought enough pure lead for the first roofing job. He then
refinined the silver out of the old roofing, and was able to make a
profit even though he did have to buy extra lead to replace the silver.

This actually happened in Europe!

Offworlders buy up a bunch of old, worked out mines, including the
tailings piles and other places contaminated by tailings and ore
processing. And they start cleaning up the mess!

The gimmick is that the tailings contain *valuable* amounts of other
metals. So does the mine. There are places in the American West where
the same mine has been worked for as many as *four* different metals. 
It's also *routine* to re-process the "sludge" left behind by several
refining processes, as the process has concentrated metals that
wouldn't otherwise be worth going after. 

And with modern bio-tech, a lot of the "toxic" materials leaching from
old mines and facilities is actually a recoverable *resource*. Add in
the avialability of stuff like fusion "torches" at higher TLs and
reprocessing mine/smelter wastes will be a major industry. So will
mining old garbage dumps. 

The problems will be the organo-metallic soups left behind by some
chemical industries. But I expect that *somewhere* someone will have a
use for even those. And if not, it's still fairly simple to concentrate
them and ship them to a holding facility on a moon or asteroid. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:17:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Webpage Query (was What is a month?)

In mail you write:

>> > it's day/night cycle will be it's orbital period around the GG...
>>
>> Aaaagh.  This just isn't so, no matter how many of you say it :-).
>>
>
> I love that attitude! ;)
> <snip>
>
>>
>> (Wish I could drop a decent animation into the e-mail at this point. :-)

Sorry, but given that such moons are almost certainly tidally locked
*to the GG*, then to a first approximation, their solar day is equal to
their orbital period around the gas giant. 

Check any reference about the length of Luna's day for diagrams and
references. 

If the moon *isn't* tidally locked, *then* things get interesting. But
that's unlikely.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:20:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: First In - Aion homeworld errata

In mail you write:

> In a message dated 6/24/99 1:08:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> shadow@krypton.rain.com writes:
>
> << Do be aware that the Bode rules are one of many possible spacings that
>  fulfil a *required* condition. Simply put, no planet may have an orbit
>  whose period is related to that of another "near" orbit by an integer.
>  And simple fractions (2/3, 3/2, etc) are likely ruled out as well.  >>
>
> Hmm, I didn't get all the specifics, but a quick search on yahoo with 
> something like "Neptune Pluto Resonance" gave a link that claimed those two 
> planets have a 2:3 relation.  Of course, Pluto is far from being a "normal" 
> planet in its orbit compared to the others.  Maybe this is the early stages 
> of just what shadow is talking about?!?

It's possible that a 2:3 *is* stable, I'd have to try running things
thru. I know that x:1 resonances *aren't* stable. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #796
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Wednesday, June 30 1999      Volume 1999 : Number 797



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)
Re: Alien Life
Re: Nukes and Dampers
Re: Sandcasters
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: YAAA
Re: 3dspace
OT: Is anyone out there... on the list I mean...
A Heretics View of Battle Dress (Long, Some OT Stuff) (was Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses) 
RE: Xenobiology 101 : Introductory Remarks (long)
Several things, incl BD, Xenobio/psych, etc
Re: List down again?
Re: The definition of 'To Secure' (was Re: My take ... (LONG!))
Re: List down again? 
Battle Riders
Re: Battle Dress

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:48:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers)

In mail you write:

>>         A Motie with no tools able to see and manipulate
>>         microcircuits in a sealed unit.
>
> Well this means I have to read the book again, I can't remember that
> lil' bit.

Either the Motie Engineer they first encounter or one of the
watchmakers that come aboard with it takes apart and repairs a notepad
computer. One of the ship's officers states that it's not *possible,
because they are a solid block of micro-circuits, and *they* don't
repair them, they just replace them.

>>         Unintelligent "Watchmakers" with absolutely no concept
>>         of how a Langston Field works, without tools or
>>         plans or any clues about how many (most?) of the
>>         components work, not only pull it appart but redesign
>>         it and build a MUCH improved unit with capabilities
>>         that the original did not have.

Actually, the increased capabilities are inherent in the Langston
field, as the humans figure out how to do it (much later) from nothing
more than observations. "All" they did was make it able to expand the
field as the absorbed energy increased, thus giving it more area to
radiate away the absorbed energy.

> I admit the "Watchmakers" pushed it a bit, I just took it that they
> worked at the instruction of an Engineer, communicating in subtle ways
> only millenia of symbiosis can develop. Perhaps even empathy or
> psionics. I think that is very deft "hand-waving" on my part, a skill I
> employ often. :)

They've got an "instinct level" understanding of machinery and
electronics. That wouldn't necessarily be "magic", just a *lot* of
selective breeding plus (perhaps) some genetic engineering.

And while they aren't necessarily intelligent, I have to wonder if they
don't have something similar to a hive mind when they are in large
groups.

Frankly, humanity *doesn't* have any experience with a
symbiote/competitor that isn't intelligent but *can* not only use but
*make* tools. They wouldn't have to be as bright as a chimp to be a
*major* hazard.

>>         Incredably advanced, highly intelligent, and specialized
>>         Moties that cannot solve a basic biological problem.

> Basic, yes, but in a zone of great potential socio-scientific friction.
> Propagation of the species is hard-wired deep within our bio-chemical
> framework. Hard to look at the problem objectively, IMHO.

Also, there's little evidence of Motie genetic engineering
capabilities. They seem to be *very* weak in the bio-sciences.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:31:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alien Life

In mail you write:

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John R. Snead <jsnead@netcom.com>
>> I beg to differ here.  We have no info on sentient life, the galaxy may be
>> teeming with it, or we may be the only one.  However, life seems to have
>> evolved on Earth shortly after it cooled. The chemicals of life (amino
>> acids...) are found in interstellar gas clouds throughout the universe,
>> and Mars may well have once had life.  All that adds up to a strong
>> likelihood that life is found everywhere it can possibly evolve.
>
> Finding amino acids is but one tiny part of the problem.  Now find twenty
> specific ones, all left-handed, and assemble them into usable chains to make
> a valuable protein without destroying your building blocks.  Now do it a
> thousand times in the thousand different configurations that will fit
> together perfectly to may one usable cell.  The odds turn out to be greater
> than 20^100 against*.  Not too promising.

Sorry, wrong calculation. 

What you need is *not* to get them to form a cell. That comes *far*
later in evolution. What's needed is for them to assemble into a
moloecule capable of replicating itself (with some errors allowed). 

Once *that* happens, evolution begins. You get variants of the molecule
competing for available resources. The ones that work best will
proliferate at the cost of others. *Eventually* you'll get groups of
molecules working together, and finally, cells.

BTW, there's some evidence that the surfaces of various clays form a
sort of template that encourages formation of amino acid chains and the
like.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 19:02:00 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Nukes and Dampers

In mail you write:

> Christopher Thrash wrote:
>
>> Besides, nuclear dampers make clean-up a snap.
>
> And if the nuke damper runs out of power?
>
> Actually, this is a good question.  Do nuke dampers permanently
> 'absorb' troublesome radiation or do they 'dampen' it only so long
> as it it powered?
>
> If the former, then NDs can be used to scrub an area clean.
> If the latter, then they are only temporary abatement.

It's *specifically* mentioned that NDs can clean up fallout. So the
ability to *permanently* destroy radio-isotopes is canonical.

And from the descriptions, they work by either speeding up or slowing
down nuclear reactions (including decay of isotopes).

So to clean up after a nuke, you just increase the decay rate
drasticly. Thus will result in a fair amount of heat as all those
alphas, betas, and gammas come off the radioactive materials. You just
keep the rate to something that'll not cause excessive heating (too
much heat and you have boiling groundwater and induced updradfts, both
of which can carry contamination out of the area).

Slowing down the rate is useful for storing things like short-lived
isotopes (including those Californium mini-nukes), but not for anything
else.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 19:11:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sandcasters

In mail you write:

> What is canon as to how sandcasters are used?  Do they the cast a cloud
> which is then held in place around the ship, in some sort of
> field-thingie?  Or do they repeatedly cast new clouds as they are lost to
> vector changes?  Are they cast in expectation of incoming fire from
> specific sources, or are they used constantly when in combat situations,
> as in "Raise shields?"  None of the above?

IN CT they are *explicitly* described as staying on the vector the ship
had when it launched them. So if you manuever, you leave them behind. 

You use them when you want to use them. Given that you've got limited
numbers of canisters, I'd only use them if I was running directly away
from the firing ship, or if I had a reason to not change course.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:16:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

In mail you write:

> I have a tremendous amount of professional respect for the USMC and their
> brethren of other nationalities (I've served with Dutch and Norwegian
> Marines as well). The Army would do well to adopt much of what they teach,
> starting with the notion that it should be *hard* to graduate basic and a
> matter of pride to call yourself a Marine.

Alas, this ios being toned down. I've heard reports that DIs can no
longer make recruits "drop and give me 50" from drop[ping their rifle.
In fact, assigning push ups as punishment apparently requires cinsent
of the recruit now!

I got this from some marines griping in another newsgroup.

While it isn't confirmed, it's all too likely given the serious
civilian/military differences. :-(

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:12:14 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: YAAA

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:

>         ROFLMAO ....    Rolling On the Floor Laughing My A$$ Off
>         YAA     ...........     Yet Another Annoying Acronym

            ROFLMAOSINANO ...... Rolling on floor laughing my a$$ off so i need a
new one.
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Big eyed Anime grin.


        Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 14:08:38 -0500
From: Talisman <shimmer@mhtc.net>
Subject: Re: 3dspace

Actually I would just like to see the formula.  I do most of my programming in
qbasic.


"William F. Hostman" wrote:

> >>WOW!
> >>Can you tell me how to take three points on a grid and translate it into
> >>bearing
> >>and mark?
> >>
> >>"William F. Hostman" wrote:
> >>
> >>> To find distance from a to be with 3d coordinates:
> >
> >I'll do it, but not tonight.... Shall I do it as a small application? ;-)
> >If I do, I'll post it to my web site (C++ source and a mac application)
>
> actually, I did it last night... hehehe
>
> to find it, click on "Traveller" in the upper right pane of
> http://home.gci.net/~aramis
>
> Enjoy!
>
> William F. Hostman
> Mailto:aramis@gci.net http://home.gci.net/~aramis http://www.alaska.net/~mhaa
> ICQ:14640742          AIM:AKAramis      ARM 1.0: 3 R H++ P+
> IMTU 1.0: tc tm++ tn t4- tt+ to- ?tg ru+ ge 3i+ jt-() au+ st+ ls ls- kk+
> as+ hi+ dr+ va++(--) so+ zh++ vi+ da++ sy- ge- pi+
> "Smith & Wesson: THe original Point and Click interface!"

- --
- -------------------------------------------------------------
Big eyed Anime grin.


        Shimmer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:33:53 +0100
From: "Matthew Bond" <mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk>
Subject: OT: Is anyone out there... on the list I mean...

Is it just me, or are others experiencing problems with receiving the list
lately?

The last couple of days nothing appears for hours (like 10 - 16 hours) then
tons arrive in a few minutes...

I'm starting to feel lonely... I actually miss you guy's <sniff>

obTrav: Is this what it's like to be an XBoat "pilot"? No communication with
anyone for ages, then more than they can cope with <g>.  I wonder if any of
them hack into the messages their carrying, just for something new to
read...

Matt

Matthew Bond
mgb@akira.swinternet.co.uk
www.akira.swinternet.co.uk
- --------------------------------------------------------------
"To strike a man who insults you is one thing...
.To run him through with a sword is quite another!"
- --------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 18:23:23 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: A Heretics View of Battle Dress (Long, Some OT Stuff) (was Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses) 

        Hi, all!
        I ref R.Talsorian's "Cyberpunk 2020" RPG in alternation to my CT
game.  CP2020 has one of the most reasonable POV's on BD (which it calls
Powered Armor, or PA Suits), including the issue that mecha are basically
impossible due to weight vs terrain issues.
        Here are some excerpts from the "Maximum Metal" supplement for
CP2020.  This information is reproduced without permission and is not an
attempt to challenge copyright or reserved rights.  Information in square
brackets are my own comments to OBTRAV the info.

        O/_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
        O\
        [Underlying System to handle the "work" part of a PA Suit is a
modified linear frame]
        A linear frame resembles a suit of contoured metal body armor. The
frame is grafted onto your body, while its systems are directly neurolinked
to your muscles and bones. Linear frames are designed to take over a
percentage of the load, while leaving you enough "work" to allow you to
gauge how much you're lifting and maintain control of the weight.

        For example, if you exert enough force to lift ten pounds, the
linear frame provides no more power than would be required to move its own
bulk. if you lift a hundred pounds, the linear frame splits the difference,
lifting 20% of this mass so that you lift 80 lbs. If you lift 500 pounds,
the linear frame takes 80% (400lbs), leaving you to lift 100lbs. At the top
end of the scale (2,000 lbs for Linear Q), the frame lifts 80% of the
weight, while you lift only 200lbs.
        [Here is the answer to the "what about the guy walking in a starship
corridor"...  he doesn't feel any different than being out of his suit,
since the suit is just dealing with *extra* load, not what he or she can
handle.]

        Why powered armor? Veteran CP players know the advantages of
strolling through a combat zone in MetalGear(R), an all-body exoskeleton
armor which provides 25SP of protection. 
        [In Cp2020, people *die* at 20pts of damage.  a 5.56mm will do 5d6;
7.62mm will do 6d6+3.  This stuff makes you Superman to small arms fire]
        Now, imagine that the good folks at Arasaka, Militech, OrbitalAir,
and Zetatech are not satisfied with 25SP of armor-, that some of their
personnel are too highly trained to be cheaply expended; that some ventures
are too covert to leave their own dead bodies around: or, that a battle zone
is so hot that a conventional soldier cannot conceivably fulfill the
objectives. Suppose that you need soldiers who can walk around in 35SP,
50SP, or even more armor, whose primary weapons are capable of clearing out
dozens of personnel, AFV, and hardened installations. Suppose, that by
spending a little real money now, you can save the expenditure of lots of
real money later. Powered Armor. The simple answer to these and many other
fine questions. Not cheap, not subtle, but hard to stop - very hard to stop.
        [I imagine the rational for even having I-Marines is basically this
only re-written with Imperial Organizations instead of Megacorps.  You need
a locally managed troubleshooting force which can rapidly react to
sistuations in such a fashion that the Bad Guys think twice about even
starting up.  Further, the Marines are there to buy time for the Army to
moblize and redeploy in overwhelming numbers.  BD/ PA is an awesome force
multiplier.]

COMM-Systems & Sensors NAME
COMMO LINK
SAT UPLINK
CELL PHONE
SCRAMBLER
LASER COM
REMOTE TARGETING
SENSORY EXTENSIONS
ANTI-DAZZLE
LOW LIGHT
INFRA RED
THEBMAL TARGETING
TELESCOPICS
IMAGE ENHANCE
VISUAL SPECTRUM 
BACKUP
AUDIO/ VISUAL 
RECORDER 
RADAR
SONAR
MAGNETOMETER
LASER DETECTOR
MICROWAVE DETECTOR

Misc Odds & Sods
WINCH & GRAPPLE
FIRE EXTINGUISHER
SEARCHLIGHT
HEAVY TOOL 
SUITE
LIGHT TOOL SUITE
CLIMBER CLAWS

MELEE WEAPONS
HEAVY BLADED WEAPON (1 - HAND)
- -HEAVY BLADED WEAPON (2- HAND)
HEAVY BLUNT WEAPON (1 -HAND)
HEAVY BLUNT WEAPON (2-HAND)
HEAVY POINTED WEAPON (2- HAND)
LARGE POWER SAW
RETRACT MONO-PA SWORD
[These are more for killing other PA Suits, than dealing with infantry.  A
typical CP2020 PA Suit has a STR of 35 out of 10, and can do 4D10 with a
punch...  more than enough to kill a "Nudie"]

12.7MM HVY MG
13.9x99mm Hvy RIFLE
14.5mm HVY MG
12.7mm GATLING
4MM RAILGUN
[Light Anti-Vehcle Stuff...  the 12.7mm gatling will really screw up light
APC's or combat choppers.]

PAINTING LASER
PHOTON ASSAULT CANNON
[CP2020 is not big on laser weapons...  the PAC is really inefficeint
compared to CT laser rifles.]

BRP RIPPLE FLETCH. 
PACK
BFC-2 FETCH CLOUD
BFC-3 FLETCH CLOUD
BFC-4 FETCH CLOUD
BFCWA FLETCH CLOUD
BIM MINELET VOLLY
BSP VARIETY SHOW
BLP BREECH SPRAY
BOM WIRE OBSTACLE
BPL PLASTIC 
OBSTACLE
BSS SILICON SPRAY
BES Epoxy SPRAY
[Infantry Platoon Wreckers...  the "Fletch Cloud" are of course, flechette
cluster packs firing several hundred needles in various arc-widths depending
on unit.]

BCL-20
20-25mm AUTOCANNON
BHC--G8--
27-30mm AUTOCANNON
LATG 37MM
EMG-83 IMPROVED 
RAILGUN
75mm RECOILESS
IFAR
IFAR 3-POD
IFAR 6-POD
MINI-80C 6
MINI-ROC I 5C
LAW-111
LIGHT ATGM
SPECTRE ATGM
SCORPION 16 SAM
RED KNIGHT SAM
[Serious Anti-Armor weapons...  the 75mm recoiless is a shoulder-mounted
monster that worries MBT drivers.  ATGM is "Anti-Tank Guided Missle"]

5.56mm LIGHT MG
7.62mm LIGHT MG
G-20 CASELESS 10mm MG
5.56M M MINIGUN
7.62MM MINIGUN
HIVE 10MM CASELESS GATLING
ONI AUTOSHOTGUN
[Assorted lead sprayers.  The HIVE, when loaded with Amor Peircing
Incendiary rounds can really screw up an infantry encampment CO's day.]

TSUNAMI 25mm GRENADE-LAUNCHER
40mm AUTO-GL
30MM AUTO-GL
SUPER RAKATE
SAUCER SHOOTER
EMP GRENADIER
[Meaner multipurpose...  the RAKATE is a 30mm gyroget launcher]

M-31PA
AUTO-FLETCHETTE "PISTOL"
14mm PISTOL
"DRAGON" FLAMER
MICRO-MISSILES
"BIG BOOMER"
[lighter multipurpose...  the M31Pa is a Auto-GL pistol for PA Suits...
It's Icky.]

        O/_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
        O\
        The design sequence for Max Metal is nice and straightforward.
Battlefield endurance for a suit and wearer is 24hrs.  You can ramp up the
suit easily with extra battery packs if you don't mind turning over option
spaces to that.  The wearer, on the other hand, is more complicated to
stretch for endurance.
        Control systems on the best PA suits are by Direct Neural Interface
connections to VR inputs based on sensors.  You don't feel the suit, it
isn't in your way, and the sensors are the world.  Any real suit is fully
NBCW proofed.
        A "classic" PA Suit from the CP2020 millieu is the Miltitech Commando:

        Commando Highlights
        945Kg   
        Reaction Bonus of +4/20
        STR 35 (Punch 4d10, Kick 6d10)
        Cost 108,306Eb (1EB = 2USD)
        Armor 65pts
        Internal/ Mounted Weapons:  R Arm - 20mm Cannon, L Arm M31-PA,
Ribbon Canister, BFC-4, BSP Variety pack, 1-H Hvy Blade
        Carried Weapons:  40mm Auto-GL, Relodable ATGM
        Electronics: VR, Radio, A/V recorder, Laser Detector
        Misc:  Smoke Canisters, Auto-Doctor, EMP Sponge, Mutliple Reloads
for all weapons and defenses

        A LAW rocket will effectively do 8d10 (40pts avg, armor ignores,
operator annoyed), an RPG-A will effectively do 12d10 (60pts, armor creaks,
operator hoses you in case you get lucky next time).  A 75mm MBT cannon will
splatter the suit and its wearer all over the landscape.

        The point?  Glad you asked.
        Ignoring the GT-Commando suit, and looking at the more reasonable BD
which the CP2020 Militech Commando is a a fair representation of from my
POV, I cannot fathom why an empire that will build a Tigress *would* *not*
equip every marine they had with this kind of gear.  The communications
times mean that when the word gets to the garrison and the garrison gets to
the deployment site, the $hit hit the airlock a month ago...  which means
that the $hit disturbers have to be *soooooo* scared about what is going to
happen when the IM shows up that they don't *dare* actually do anything.
        The IM with CES and Guass are rapid-reaction infantry who you can
slaughter as easily as any other well-trained infantry with CES and Guass.
Not very scary in the short term.  A BD trooper who you have to use tanks
against to kill are another freakin' story...  200 marines land and *you*
now have find 200 tanks to play tag with them in urban centers and in the
woods.  Depending on your design system, the BD man has just as good odds of
one-shot-one-kill on your tanks as you do on him.
        Except he can hide.  He can snipe from building tops.  He can fit
down alleys.  He can fight you from everywhere you can't follow.
        Imperial Marines and Battle Dress.  It Just Makes Sense.
        So, about that little insurrection of yours....  Are you gonna want
to make enough noise that the Imperium gets involved?  Nope.  Result:  A
nice, "quiet" Imperium, just the way the Emperor, the Moot and the Corps
like it.

        JMHO, YMMV, YAAA, BYE.

        --Michel

	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:43:59 -0400
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Xenobiology 101 : Introductory Remarks (long)

Robert O'Connor writes:
<snipped>
"These criteria get blurry at both ends of the size scale : 
is a prion 'alive'? a single enzyme? an ecosystem? a biosphere?"

	There are certainly fuzzy areas, but from an evolutionary 
	standpoint there is no point to considering an ecosystem
	(or a biosphere) an organism. For natural selection to 
	act, there must be reproducing entities that may differ in
	their ability to reproduce. One might argue that populations
	might "reproduce," (indeed, some biologists have so argured) 
	but selection on individuals is expected to overwhelm 
	selection on groups unless very specific conditions are met.

"Boron : It has a similar covalent radius to carbon, so compounds 
are likely to be more stable. Being trivalent, it can replace 
nitrogen in most carbon compounds. Like silicon, boron hydrides 
(B2H6, etc.) react vigorously with water and oxygen."

	Is there a reason that life could not be based on trivalent
	building blocks? I realize that this would reduce the 
	potential complexity, but what if something like Boron
	(if it was common enough in a system) was used in place of
	carbon?

	Thanks for an excellent post, I am looking forwards to the
	next in the series!

Peez

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 15:38:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Michael A Newman <manst4+@pitt.edu>
Subject: Several things, incl BD, Xenobio/psych, etc

As a contribution to the very interesting BD thread, I'd like to refer
folks to a comic book limited series of a few years ago: Shadow Empires by
Chris Moeller.  It follows the leader of a battalion(?) built around a
squad (platoon?) of what is known as "Iron" in this TU.  It's beautifully
rendered (fully painted) and has a nifty politico-socio-religious
background.  Cool visual realizations of BD and other personal armor,
weapons, vehicles, ships, etc.  I'd also take a look at another series of
his, more recent: Sheva's War.  This story is set a few subsectors over
and follows a noblewomen in charge of troops when the stuff hits the fan.
Interesting take here is on psionics--not pyrotechnically strong, but
subtle and strictly the purview of the nobility.  Also fully painted. 

When it comes to Xenobio/psych: A little while ago I read Ring of Swords
by E. Arnason.  (No real spoilers ahead.)  It's set about a century from
now and humanity has made contact with another interstellar race; it has
not gone all that well--there has been some shooting.  Surprise: they are
REALLY similar to us, as in they are mammals, bipedal, etc.  Problem:  their
psychology/culture, especially their attitudes towards sex and
reproduction, are so dissimilar that they can't decide if we are human or
not, that is, not animals.  Up and down as a novel, but some interesting
ideas. 

Etiquette question: I have some old CT and MT books (mostly DGP) that I
want to sell.  Thought I'd give people on this list a chance before I put
them up on Ebay.  Have I said too much already for politeness? 

Judge's Guild is back, and some of their Traveller stuff is available
again.  Is anyone familiar with their work?  I have seen very little.  How
is the quality/usefulness?

Thanks,
Micheal

Thanks for the responses re: sandcasters.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:41:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Subject: Re: List down again?

The list box ran out of disk space.  I cleaned up a bunch of stuff and 
we will work to rearrange things to improve matters.

Rob

> If anybody sees this, could you mail me?  I haven't gotten list mail all
> day.
> -- 
> 
> Doug Berry
> dberry@hooked.net
> http://www.hooked.net/~dberry
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:08:10 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: The definition of 'To Secure' (was Re: My take ... (LONG!))

Terry Mixon wrote:
> 
> --- Jeff Cornish <JCornish@appiangraphics.com> wrote:

> If you order a Marine unit to secure a building they will either call
> > in an airstrike, or set demolitions to level the building to the
> > ground.
> 
 
> > If you order an Air Force unit to secure a building, they will sign a
> > long term lease agreement for it.
> 
> ROFL

And just _which_ branch secured the building with the greatest long term
ROI? The ones who mad a large pile of rubble, or the ones with a
complete building that they can do what they want with, AND natives who
are reasonably happy to have them there...

This IS  a trade centered Imperium, after all ;-)

- -- 
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:46:56 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: List down again? 

> The list box ran out of disk space.  I cleaned up a bunch of stuff and 
> we will work to rearrange things to improve matters.
> 
> Rob
> 
> > If anybody sees this, could you mail me?  I haven't gotten list mail all
> > day.

Coolness, Bob.  For awhile, I was thinking the list server was spasming on & off the net cause it wasn't accepting my posts.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:55:04 +0100
From: Chris Thompson <u12ct@abdn.ac.uk>
Subject: Battle Riders

How many battle riders are normally carried by a battle tender and of
what displacement?
- -- 
Capt Devir 
Hell Team

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:09:38 -0700 (PDT)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Battle Dress

Douglas E. Berry writes:
>> The much maligned Scout/Commando BD in _Star Mercs_ has:
> 
> 10 mile AESA (Active sensor)
> 5 mile PESA (Passive sensor)
> 1 mile passive sonar
> .5 mile geophone
> 2 mile radscanner
> .1 mile gravscanner
> Level 10 surveillance sound detector

Wow.  Yet more rather silly tech.  Passive sonar is only useful if you're going
swimming, and not very useful there with that little range.  A geophone is
useful for detecting heavy objects on the ground.  Hm...oh that's really
relevant in traveller at TL 9+.  As for the gravscanner -- that's too low range
to be worth _anything_ (it was also unclear whether the tech is actually
available in GT, which is why the grav tanks don't have gravscanners.  They hav
enough waste space to add one, though).

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #797
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 1 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 798



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Battledress, Hoorah!
Re: More Fun for the Marines
re: Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines...
Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses
Re: More Battle Dress stuff
re: A Heretic's View of Battle Dress
Re: CT Skills
Re: Xenobiology 101 : From Primordial Soup to Cells (long)
re: Imperial Marines
Re: MedTraders
Re: MedTraders
Trader Ships and life pods
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers) 
Re: MedTraders
Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Gripping Hand spoilers)
Re: Sandcasters
Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: MedTraders

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:13:24
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Battledress, Hoorah!

At 04:24 PM 6/30/99 +1000, you wrote:
>The problem I have with every Marine having a Battle dress and FMPG-14 is
>actually the training.
>
>Lets face it, while the basics of warfare can be learned during basic
>training, *effective* use of these equipment takes years to learn.

Which is why Marine training takes a year.  Eight weeks for the basics,
then several months learning to use the equipment.  Even then, an Armsman/3
is considered to be barely qualified to walk a straight line.

>In many wargames (Star Grunt II and WH40k spring to mind, both small
>company level combat as seen in traveller games), only elites get Power
>armour.

It's important to remember that in the Traveller universe battledress has
been known and used for over two thousand years.  It's not like the Marines
of 1120 are receiving something new and precious, they're just the latest
users in a *very* long line.  The SGII time line goes barely 300 years
forward, IIRC.
- --

Douglas E. Berry, dberry@hooked.net
Inquisitor Maximus
Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:47:49
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: More Fun for the Marines

At 10:34 PM 6/30/99 +1100, you wrote:
>
>One other area the IM are probably going to see service is work cleaning up
>after local wars - both in keeping an established peace, and more prosaic
>work such as mineclearing and bomb squad work.

Imperial Army Engineers, which get a big space in a section on "Ongoing
Military Campaigns."

While I've ben arguing in favor of my BD Marines, I agree that a straight
combat unit makes for lousy role-play.  So I've included some suggestions
on basing a campaign on an Engineer or Medical unit.  These guys tend to do
more in peacetime, and have the disadvantage that their not a bunch of
combat monsters.

Yes, he said Medical.  M*A*S*H in space.  Think about it, when they weren't
being utterly silly they got some good plots in.  To steal one:

While supporting a Counter-Insurgency mission, the staff notices that a
united of mixed Vargr/Human troops is taking casualties that are
disproportionately high among the Vargr.  A little detective work shows
that the commander of the unit lost his wife to Vargr corsairs many years
ago.  Problem, the guy is a bloody hero, outranks the PC commander, and is
a minor noble to boot.  How do we get this butcher away from his troops?

- -- 

Douglas E. Berry
Templar Agent at Large.
dberry@hooked.net  
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html 

TravGeekCode: 
tc+ tm+ !tn- t4@ ?tg+ tt@ to(CORPS)++ ru@ $ge++ 3i
ii+ au st+ ls+ pi kk+ so(++) va++ dr+ zh+ sw++ ?da
         

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:25:31
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re: Imperial Marines

At 09:21 AM 6/30/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Is BD the appropriate uniform for counter-insurgency work? I don't mean
>the final assault on the main rebel stronghold, I mean the day-to-day work?

While the small group of Marines who were first on station wait for the
Army to arrive, yes.

Let's assume that the People's Democratic Liberation Front of Judea is
struggling to throw off the Imperial yoke.  In doing this, they have
triggered an Imperial intervention (they've spread their brand of terrorism
to other systems, and have severely slowed trade.)

The nearest u it is the scattered companies of a Task Force, which are
notified and diverted to Judea.  At the same time, Army Command starts
making plans to move a Division or two of Lift Infantry to the world if it
becomes necessary.

The Marines are given the job of guarding the Consulate, the starport, and
acting as a Mike Force for the local troops who are hunting out rebel
strongholds.  The Marines are going to be in BD for two reasons: they are
there to project Imperial power, and they cannot afford to take casualties.

If the problem looks to be long term (i.e: the rebels don't collapse in the
first few weeks), then the Army will come in for the long term solution.  A
Lift Infantry Division has the assets to conduct a long term campaign, and
to provide the internal security needed in the aftermath.  The army grunts
will be in CES with gauss rifles.  There will also be a hell of lot more of
them.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:39:02
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines...

At 07:16 AM 6/30/99 -0700, you wrote:
>--- "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>The problem there is that one becomes the other. Those retired marines 
>will have come from the active duty. Most folks want characters will 
>what they consider useful skills. They way you seem to be angling, very
>few, if any, of the posters here on the TML would be satisfied.

1.  Everyone is judging this based on a *single* proposed disad that would
be *available*, not mandatory for Marine characters.  

2.  The mandatory investment in Battlesuit takes up 1.4% of the average
character's pool of points at character generation.  The total package of
skills and advantages costs about 80 points, and has many options built in.
 This leaves about 60 points for customizing your character to your heart's
content.

3.  The most wonderful book _Star Mercs_ contains eleven templates for
*former* military types, including naked, manly-man infantry.

4.  The book I am trying to write is the guide to the active duty Army and
Marines.  The aforementioned _Star Mercs_ is for retired types.

5.  _Ground Forces_, if I write it, will contain far more than simple
templates.  It will give the reader an idea on how the Army and Marines are
run, how they fight, their equipment, and a host of other informational
pieces.  One more time: It's for people who might like to run/play *active
duty* games.

6.  Like any other game book, if you don't like what I write, ignore it!
The game police are not going to come to your door if I see print and you
decide that the Imperial Marines are actually a dance troupe who use
interpretive ballet to shame their foes into surrendering.
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:55:14 -0500
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses

The Roc wrote:
> 
<<snip>>
> 
> ObTrav:  What is the upkeep of BD?  Do local governments have a choice in
> forces used on their worlds?
> 
> "Yes, I understand this civil war is getting out of hand and disrupting
> vital supplies manufactured locally.  Yes, yes, I understand the Imperium
> has no choice but to step in now.  Oh yes I do know that.  What?  Oh please
> sir, another few weeks is neither here nor there... I do not want Imperial
> Marines anywhere near my world!  Send me the army or we will oppose the
> Imperium's entry into this conflict*"

At which point the Imperial representative (with a small smile [or
his/her/its race's equivalent] playing across his/her/its face) says,
"Of _course_ we didn't plan on sending in the Imerial Marines!  Army
troops are even now en route to restore order."  [thinking to self:
"Interesting that the nearest unit available for deployment was the
1199th Jump Infantry Regiment, Imperial Army, and _they_ have
battledress _too_.  How..._unfortunate_ for the troublemakers...."]

Never forget that, even if the Imperial Marines are universally
BD-capable, this doesn't imply that they are the _only_ BD-equipped
forces.

<<snip>>

- -- 
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:38:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: More Battle Dress stuff

On 06/29/99 13:51:09 Doug Berry wrote:
>The early versions of
>Assault BD are a bit slower (no sprinting at 70MPH! Carry about the same
>armor, and have nasty intergal weapons systems.  It's designed so that a
>sixty man platoon can handle forces several times their own size without
>being wiped out.
>-- 

	Just a thought, but has anyone figured out the ground pressure of this 
beasty?  I remember looking at the Scout/Commando suit and back-of-
the-envelope figuring that it's ground pressure was much greater than that of 
a tank.


- ------------------
Jim MacLean
Economist, Traveller Fan
Co-Author GT: Far Trader

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:54:08 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: A Heretic's View of Battle Dress

Michel Vaillancourt wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
        Imperial Marines and Battle Dress.  It Just Makes Sense.
        So, about that little insurrection of yours....  Are you gonna want
to make enough noise that the Imperium gets involved?  Nope.  Result:  A
nice, "quiet" Imperium, just the way the Emperor, the Moot and the Corps
like it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Except that, canonically, it *ain't* a nice, "quiet" Imperium. Insurrections,
Ine Givar ops, MegaCorp Tradewars turning hot, all kinds of things seem
to keep the Imperium hopping. You even have P****...no, I won't say it.

Anyway, you have all kinds of things happening that Marines may see
a piece of - IMO, not just BD assaults.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:48:50 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: CT Skills

- -----Original Message-----
From: David Healey <dhealey@giant.net.au>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: CT Skills


>Now *that* is a cool idea.  Mind if I nick it ?


Be my guest.

>The image of the mercenary doctor ...  That's just the ticket for an
>adventuring party as it easily caters for any mix of character motivations.


Just the image of a dozen trading vessels descending on a world after
hearing that a revolution has cooled down is one that makes interesting
background.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 13:34:42 -0700
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 : From Primordial Soup to Cells (long)

Wed, 30 Jun 1999 12:18:10 +1000, "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
[A few caveats.  First a disclaimer, these are my own personal
comments and don't reflect any other source...]

>* From Building Blocks to Biomolecules
>Simple molecules - for example sugars, amino acids and nucleotides
>(purine or pyrimidine [nitrogen-containing] bases joined to phosphated
>sugars) - can join together to form polymers.
>	Polymer formation is relatively easy to induce. Heating of dry
>organic compounds can lead to polymer formation, as can catalysis by
>a wide range of substances e.g. inorganic phosphates.

The key is "relatively".  This is one of the significant issues
in the field, particularly for amino acids.  Drying cycles is
one of the mechanisms that have been invoked, but it is not
entirely satisfactory.

>It is currently thought that nucleotides came first, then proteins, then
>carbohydrates.

This is the matter of some debate and I wouldn't hazzard to guess whether
this is accepted be more people in the field or not.  It certainly
has its share or detractors.  I may also be that _none_ of these
came first.  There is evidence that amphiphiles may have formed,
or been delivered by meteorites, first and formed "protocells"
(see the posters discussion on cell membranes).  These then
contained reactions and may even have had catalytic effects.

[On optical isomerism]
>How did this situation arise?
>It is currently thought that a small excess of one isomer, created by an
>abundance of circularly polarised light (common in star forming
>regions), and subsequent amplification by later chemical reactions, did
>the trick.

This is only one theory.  We know so little about this that many
theories abound.  It is also possible that life didn't go entire
to on isomer until _after_ life started.  It is entirely possible
that protiens need to be made out of one isomer, or the other,
to fold right.  Life could have started with both isomers and died
out.

Note: no one has made enzymes out of right handed amino acids.  It
is not impossible that left handed ones simply work better.  This
is probably better for Traveller because it explains why, since
everyone is alway trading food around, most species can eat alien
food.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net.  My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:08:25 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Imperial Marines

Douglas Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>Is BD the appropriate uniform for counter-insurgency work? I don't mean
>the final assault on the main rebel stronghold, I mean the day-to-day work?

While the small group of Marines who were first on station wait for the
Army to arrive, yes.
>>>>>>>>>>>
Point on minimizing casualties noted...I was thinking more in terms of,
"How many hours straight can a troopie use his battledress before he
has to take it offline for X hours of maintenance?". If downtime hours per
uptime hours are too great, the small Marine contingent may have to
ration their BD usage. Do all of them wear the BD while doing a standard
security sweep, or just the point man and the guys with the heavy weps?

Not a problem if BD maintenance is trivial, nor if the Imperium sends
along a lot of spares.

BD maintenance profile isn't a problem for orbital assault or starship 
defense/starship boarding situations. In either case, you know
pretty far in advance exactly when the op will start, and it should 
be over pretty quickly (at least for your unit). These are the prime
missions Marines seem equipped for in GT (all BD, all energy weps),
IMO Marines will often find themselves in situations with an entirely
different pace and duration of operations.

Walt Smith

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:20:58 -0300
From: Michel Vaillancourt <misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca>
Subject: Re: MedTraders

At 08:45 AM 30/06/1999 -0600, you wrote:
>> Now *that* is a cool idea.  Mind if I nick it ?
>> The image of the mercenary doctor ...  That's just the ticket for an
>> adventuring party as it easily caters for any mix of character motivations.
>
>I like this idea myself, and will probably implement it IMTU.
>
>Now, to calm down the profit-hungry private doctor ships, there will
probably be
>an organization like the Red Cross that does the same service, but charges far
>less.
>
        "Doctors Without Planets"

        --Michel
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Michel R. Vaillancourt	misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
				ICQ # 31172292
	"Reality Error in Progress....
			....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"	
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
	Into Cyberpunk?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
	Into Traveller?  Check Out:
		"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
	-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 17:19:41 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: MedTraders

- -----Original Message-----
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@GLJA.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Wednesday, June 30, 1999 10:45 AM
Subject: MedTraders


>I like this idea myself, and will probably implement it IMTU.
>
>Now, to calm down the profit-hungry private doctor ships, there will
probably be
>an organization like the Red Cross that does the same service, but charges
far
>less.


Or you can have a group that sets up small hospitals on "technologically
challenged" planets throughout the Imperium. They use technologies that may
be cheaper in scale, but less portable. Stuff like limb cloning, maybe even
extensive anagathic regimens[1]. In fact, that might be one of the reasons
why anagathics are so expensive. Various private organizations might funnel
off the excess profit and use it to help those who are less fortunate.

[1] My own version of anagathics differs from the traditional canon view.
Living longer isn't a matter of simply popping a pill every once in awhile
and stopping the aging process. There's high-end genetic engineering, which
has certain distinct advantages, but sometimes results in strange physical
or mental side effects. There's also cybernetics, but you can only go so far
in the Imperium with this. After all, too much cybernetic tech and you're no
longer a citizen. In my own Third Imperium, this rule was political. It was
a method employed to remove certain extremely conservative (and long-lived)
nobles in the moot and to marginalize their possible influence. There's also
the use of nanotechnology to stop the aging process. Then, there are more
traiditional medical technologies, drugs, therapy, minor implants, etc.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:59:27 -0500
From: "Kevin Roberts" <kr23st00@apex.net>
Subject: Trader Ships and life pods

I am trying to run a game of T4 traveller.  I would like to ask is 
for a few cargo type ships. and life type boats that can go into 
them.  

I am asking for a few designs.  

Sorry for the distruption....

end of line...

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 00:56:47 -0400
From: "Keven R. Pittsinger" <jamstar@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Mote in God's Eye spoilers) 

> In mail you write:
> 
> >>         A Motie with no tools able to see and manipulate
> >>         microcircuits in a sealed unit.
> >
> > Well this means I have to read the book again, I can't remember that
> > lil' bit.
> 
> Either the Motie Engineer they first encounter or one of the
> watchmakers that come aboard with it takes apart and repairs a notepad
> computer. One of the ship's officers states that it's not *possible,
> because they are a solid block of micro-circuits, and *they* don't
> repair them, they just replace them.

A Watchmaker, IIRC.
 
> > I admit the "Watchmakers" pushed it a bit, I just took it that they
> > worked at the instruction of an Engineer, communicating in subtle ways
> > only millenia of symbiosis can develop. Perhaps even empathy or
> > psionics. I think that is very deft "hand-waving" on my part, a skill I
> > employ often. :)
> 
> They've got an "instinct level" understanding of machinery and
> electronics. That wouldn't necessarily be "magic", just a *lot* of
> selective breeding plus (perhaps) some genetic engineering.

I'd say, a good *bit* of genetic engineering, to make sure the necessary 
memory engrams get reproduced in every generation.  And the more instinct you 
genetically wire into them, the *less* room there is for intelligence, to the 
point where they can *barely* understand simple commands.
 
> And while they aren't necessarily intelligent, I have to wonder if they
> don't have something similar to a hive mind when they are in large
> groups.

I don't think they are.  No interpersonal wideband communication channels 
between the individuals.

> Frankly, humanity *doesn't* have any experience with a
> symbiote/competitor that isn't intelligent but *can* not only use but
> *make* tools. They wouldn't have to be as bright as a chimp to be a
> *major* hazard.
> 
> >>         Incredably advanced, highly intelligent, and specialized
> >>         Moties that cannot solve a basic biological problem.
> 
> > Basic, yes, but in a zone of great potential socio-scientific friction.
> > Propagation of the species is hard-wired deep within our bio-chemical
> > framework. Hard to look at the problem objectively, IMHO.
> 
> Also, there's little evidence of Motie genetic engineering
> capabilities. They seem to be *very* weak in the bio-sciences.

Accent on *SEEM*.  They have this annoying habit of hiding things they don't 
want outsiders to see.  Also, the modifications were made something on the 
order of a *million* years previous; once made, the technology doesn't have 
to survive, just its results.

Keven

- -- 
tc++ tm+ tn t4- to ru++ ge+ 3i c+ jt au st- ls pi+ ta+ he+ so- vi zh sy
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                     Science-Fiction Adventure
                                                     In Reavers' Deep

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 01:05:39 -0400
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
Subject: Re: MedTraders

Just to add some thought to this thread, in addition to the red cross
are missionaries (soup kitchens in Ireland during the potato famine 
would feed you if you converted), relief funds (if the country A
sends more money to your world than country B, perhaps you will be
more supportive of them), and I know of a wacky guy who is taking
the idea of high-tech wheelchairs, and inventing ways to make them
out of materials that are readily available and more durable for 
lower tech areas.


- -- 
I could not say I believe. I know! I have had the experience of being gripped
by something that is stronger than myself, something that people call God.
							-- Carl Jung
Rob Brady		                                robb at datatone dot com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:29:26 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Xenobiology 101 (possible Gripping Hand spoilers)

The problem with the Moties solving their pregnancy difficulty is that
the crazy eddies HAD solved it a number of times as we learn in TMIGE. 
Those who used those methods, however, lost wars to those who had not
used whatever the methods were, since they didn't have the population
level afterwards to win.
What ended up happening at the end of GH (spoiler alert)...


. involved denying interstellar travel to those who didn't use the
method the humans had worked out.  There was not to be an effort to get
all Moties to use it (since that would effectively kill the Motie race
in one generation).
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:07:06 -0600
From: "Joseph Kimball" <HPJKimba@ihc.com>
Subject: Re: Sandcasters

>>>> (begin quoted material)
What is canon as to how sandcasters are used?  Do they the cast a
cloud
which is then held in place around the ship, in some sort of
field-thingie?  Or do they repeatedly cast new clouds as they are lost
to
vector changes?  Are they cast in expectation of incoming fire from
specific sources, or are they used constantly when in combat
situations,
as in "Raise shields?"  None of the above?
Thanks,
Michael
>>>>
At least in CT, sandcasters were cast in a cloud on a specific vector,
and then didn't maneuver so you would loose their effect as you
continued to maneuver.  Sand was almost ignored in MT as far as I could
see.  In TNE, sandcasters became more of the "shield" effect, with a
cannister worth of sand being held in a field by the casting turret and
being used to actively intercept fire.  A nice visual of this effect is
on the cover of Brilliant Lances (the TNE ship-to-ship combat game).  I
was never clear on which theory was held to in T4, and I don't think it
has been made clear in the G:T book.
- - Joseph

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 15:24:40 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Black ICE <wombat@premier.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 1:55 PM
Subject: Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses


> The Roc wrote:
> >
> <<snip>>
> >
> > ObTrav:  What is the upkeep of BD?  Do local governments have a choice
in
> > forces used on their worlds?
> >
> > "Yes, I understand this civil war is getting out of hand and disrupting
> > vital supplies manufactured locally.  Yes, yes, I understand the
Imperium
> > has no choice but to step in now.  Oh yes I do know that.  What?  Oh
please
> > sir, another few weeks is neither here nor there... I do not want
Imperial
> > Marines anywhere near my world!  Send me the army or we will oppose the
> > Imperium's entry into this conflict*"
>
> At which point the Imperial representative (with a small smile [or
> his/her/its race's equivalent] playing across his/her/its face) says,
> "Of _course_ we didn't plan on sending in the Imerial Marines!  Army
> troops are even now en route to restore order."  [thinking to self:
> "Interesting that the nearest unit available for deployment was the
> 1199th Jump Infantry Regiment, Imperial Army, and _they_ have
> battledress _too_.  How..._unfortunate_ for the troublemakers...."]
>
> Never forget that, even if the Imperial Marines are universally
> BD-capable, this doesn't imply that they are the _only_ BD-equipped
> forces.
>
> <<snip>>
>

Sneeeeeeky Imperial-type guys :^)

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 22:35:46 -0700
From: "Justice Hypercleats" <eris@sierratel.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

> In mail you write:
> 
>> I have a tremendous amount of professional respect for the USMC and their
>> brethren of other nationalities (I've served with Dutch and Norwegian
>> Marines as well). The Army would do well to adopt much of what they teach,
>> starting with the notion that it should be *hard* to graduate basic and a
>> matter of pride to call yourself a Marine.
>
> Alas, this ios being toned down. I've heard reports that DIs can no
> longer make recruits "drop and give me 50" for dropping their rifle.
> In fact, assigning push ups as punishment apparently requires consent
> of the recruit now!
That is absolutely crazy, you can't train soldiers like that!  My grand dad
would of put me on some kind of work detail for a month at least for
dropping a rifle. And I'm a civilian! Of course HE was a gunner in WW2...
>
> I got this from some marines griping in another newsgroup.
>
> While it isn't confirmed, it's all too likely given the serious
> civilian/military differences. :-(
I believe it, typical skin monkey behavior. ObTrav: Compare this to the
decline of the Sardaukar(sp?) in Dune... Where are such parallels in Trav.
I'm thinking CT , early 1000's. The Empire seems stable as far as I see,
although I only have the LBB's. Seems to require an assassination to erupt
into chaos, or am I interpreting what little I hear? How do the Imp's feel
about this "Star Trigger" of the Darrians I just recently read about? That
is one serious "Weapon of Mass Destruction"! I can't  remember any declining
power of that time period, is there one?

BZA

////////////////////////////////////////
Akella 0609 C654474-6 S kk+ hi++ as+ va+ dr+ da+ so- zh- vi-  A523
IMTU tc++ ru@ 3i+(-) c+ jt au@ st- ls+ pi+ ta@ he+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 09:55:19 -0600
From: "Christopher Thrash" <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

One really good reason for keeping Marines in battledress as much as
possible just occurred to me. Apologies if it has been mentioned before
(some of those replies were pretty long, so I may have missed it).

Acclimation.

Marines, more so than any other force in the Imperium, have to land on
worlds with any conceivable combination of gravity, pressure, and trace
gasses and expect to function -- without time for adaptation.

The suit provides a controlled environment and carries its own weight (and
the weight of weaponry and equipment) against the local gravity. This
allows the Marine Task Force to effectively ignore local conditions and
concentrate on the mission. Part of the handover process to the Army may
involve giving them time to acclimate and adapt (where possible), so that
they can continue the fight without all the life support gear and attendant
logistical tail. 

[This was a significant lesson learned in Somalia, by the way -- the 10th
Mountain Division troops sent directly from Fort Drum, NY, in the dead of
winter suffered mightily in East Africa. When the time came for UPHOLD
DEMOCRACY in Haiti, the timetable included 10-14 days for the 10th Mountain
troops in Florida, so they could acclimate. This worked much better.]

This suggests a need for Marine vehicles like a mobile NBC shelter, large
enough for the Marines to shuck their suits when they need a rest. Such a
shelter could be installed in a cutter module, in a series of cargo
containers that link together, in tents or be integrated with field
maintenance shelters on grav sleds. The US has a system called Force
Provider which covers essentially these functions, less the maintenance
requirement for the suits.

I'm still considering how battlesuited troops do the "hearts and minds"
schtick, but that has become the issue for me, rather than whether or not
battlesuited troops make sense in the first place. They do.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 01:50:04 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: MedTraders

- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Brady <robb@datatone.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>;
traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 1:03 AM
Subject: Re: MedTraders


>Just to add some thought to this thread, in addition to the red cross
>are missionaries (soup kitchens in Ireland during the potato famine
>would feed you if you converted), relief funds (if the country A
>sends more money to your world than country B, perhaps you will be
>more supportive of them), and I know of a wacky guy who is taking
>the idea of high-tech wheelchairs, and inventing ways to make them
>out of materials that are readily available and more durable for
>lower tech areas.


There are other possibilities as well. For example, here in Philadelphia
there's an interesting law on the books. If your company wants to come in
and build a building downtown, you've got to spend 1% of the building price
on beautification projects in the area. Usually, the company erecting the
building hires a sculptor and plops down a sculpture somewhere. Sometimes
it's used to create small parks or shady little areas. As a result, downtown
Philadelphia has *tons* of nice stuff around.

An idea like this could be added into a Traveller Universe. It might be very
common for planets to request that megacorps perform some "good" service in
order to close a lucrative deal. Of course, some megacorps might do that
*anyway* to sweeten a deal or to edge out competitors.

A megacorp might contract a bunch of medtraders to do work on a specific
world to help close a deal. Of course, it doesn't have to be medical-types,
it could be anything. I'm thinking of the scene in "Indiana Jones and the
Last Crusade" where the Germans are trying to lure the local Arab bigwig
into letting them borrow a tank and a bunch of soldiers to help them with
their dig. He's not really buying it. They wave gold and jewels in his face
and he's unimpressed. Then he sees their car... and it turns out he's a huge
car buff ;)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #798
**********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest       Thursday, July 1 1999       Volume 1999 : Number 799



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Imperial Marines
Re: Trader Ships and life pods
Webspace ownership on AOL
Re: Imperial Marines
Re: More Fun for the Marines
Re : MedTraders
Re:TL8 Medicine
Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses
Re: Imperial Marines
Re : Xenobiology 101 : Introductory Remarks
Re : Xenobiology 101 : From Primordial Soup to Cells (long, longish)
Re: 001-0
Re: 001-0
Re: 3dmapping
Re: MedTraders
Re: Cray OS (Was : Vilani Lies)
Re: Mercenary Doctors (was re: CT Skills)
Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses
Re: Battle Riders
Re: More Battle Dress stuff
re: Girlie Marines who wear (Battle) Dresses

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 01:59:26 -0400
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

- -----Original Message-----
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
To: traveller@lists.imagiconline.com <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Cc: dberry@hooked.net <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thursday, July 01, 1999 1:44 AM
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines


>Acclimation.
>
>Marines, more so than any other force in the Imperium, have to land on
>worlds with any conceivable combination of gravity, pressure, and trace
>gasses and expect to function -- without time for adaptation.


I believe I went over this briefly in one of my responses to The Roc. It
didn't go into the detail that you're going into here.

>The suit provides a controlled environment and carries its own weight (and
>the weight of weaponry and equipment) against the local gravity. This
>allows the Marine Task Force to effectively ignore local conditions and
>concentrate on the mission. Part of the handover process to the Army may
>involve giving them time to acclimate and adapt (where possible), so that
>they can continue the fight without all the life support gear and attendant
>logistical tail.


I hadn't thought of it that way. That makes a hell of alot of sense.

>I'm still considering how battlesuited troops do the "hearts and minds"
>schtick, but that has become the issue for me, rather than whether or not
>battlesuited troops make sense in the first place. They do.


Like I've already said, I'm not sure that the marines would be expected to
do the "hearts and minds" routine. Even if a government is *trying* to win
the hearts and minds of a population, not every branch of the armed services
will be handing out candy bars to little kids or helping to relocate people
living in areas where fighting is growing more intense.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 03:11:11 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Trader Ships and life pods

"Kevin Roberts" <kr23st00@apex.net> asks:

>I am trying to run a game of T4 traveller.  I would like to ask is 
>for a few cargo type ships. and life type boats that can go into 
>them.  
>I am asking for a few designs.  
>Sorry for the distruption....
>
>end of line...

 Check out the Falcon Subsidized Trader (300 tons) at my site:

 http://members.aol.com/gypsycomet/index.html
  and follow the Starships link...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 03:48:46 EDT
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Webspace ownership on AOL

All,
  With the Yahoo/GeoCities TOS problem getting all the attention, I decided 
to take a second look at AOLs TOS documents. I found a distressingly similar 
statement there, and have sent an inquiry to AOL regarding it. Depending on 
the answer, my pages may be moving soon. I will keep you posted...

GC

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 01:15:51 -0700
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:47:49, "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>1.  Everyone is judging this based on a *single* proposed disad that would
>be *available*, not mandatory for Marine characters.  
>
>2.  The mandatory investment in Battlesuit takes up 1.4% of the average
>character's pool of points at character generation.  The total package of
>skills and advantages costs about 80 points, and has many options built in.
> This leaves about 60 points for customizing your character to your heart's
>content.

This, I suspect, is where peoples' CT experience is tripping them up.  In
Book 4 (let alone, god forbid, Book 1), being *required* to devote two or
more of your skill picks to Battle Dress is a Big Deal(tm)... especially
when most CT campaigns are NOT active duty, and thus these picks will be
"wasted" (unless the GM lets his PCs get their hot little hands on a suit
of BD, yeah right).

GURPS characters have a LOT more skills, and basic competency in them is a
LOT easier to come by.  So long to the one-trick-ponies that CT chargen so
often produced.

As for the concerns that the Combat Paralysis disad will be mandatory:
well, I suspect this is two-fold.  First, many people have been raised on a
portrayal of Marines, whatever their country of origin, as (to use the
phrase of Sgt. Apone) "absolute BADASSES!"  The notion of their manly-man
PC curling into a ball and wetting himself if caught outside of his
Superman suit during a fight (which you KNOW is gonna happen sooner or
later, GMs live for that sorta thing) does not fit in with that image.
Secondly, the memories of arbitrary restrictions that WERE mandatory - like
"cannot wear armor" and "cannot use edged weapons" - are probably still in
the living memory of many of the old-timers on this list. :)

What it comes down to is:  it's your book, write what you like.  You at
least seem to have a grasp of past canon on the subject and some RL
experience to boot, which is more than some game writers can say.

Peace.


- --------------
Kelly St.Clair     "At last we will reveal our pants to the Jedi.  At last we
kellys@efn.org      will have revenge."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 01:19:07 -0700
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: More Fun for the Marines

On Wed, 30 Jun 1999 08:47:43, "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:
>Yes, he said Medical.  M*A*S*H in space.  Think about it, when they weren't
>being utterly silly they got some good plots in.  To steal one:
>
>While supporting a Counter-Insurgency mission, the staff notices that a
>united of mixed Vargr/Human troops is taking casualties that are
>disproportionately high among the Vargr.  A little detective work shows
>that the commander of the unit lost his wife to Vargr corsairs many years
>ago.  Problem, the guy is a bloody hero, outranks the PC commander, and is
>a minor noble to boot.  How do we get this butcher away from his troops?

DANG!  This is brilliant.  Now I'm going to have to find an episode guide
and start trawling it for plots...

Not your standard "Merchants and Mercenaries" campaign, by a long shot.


- --------------
Kelly St.Clair     "At last we will reveal our pants to the Jedi.  At last we
kellys@efn.org      will have revenge."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 20:23:35 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : MedTraders

Walt Smith wrote :-
> 
> Now wouldn't this get the IISS's attention: a plague breaks out on a low
> tech planet, a disease that isn't usually fatal, but tends to leave the victim 
> blinded due to retinal damage. A "mercenary doctor" just happens to 
> show up a week later, with a cargo bay topped off with cybernetic eyes...

Depending on how low-tech the planet is and the prevailing cultural
mores, blindness *would* be a death sentence ; the Australian
ophthalmologist Fred Hollows' work in Nepal and other Third World
locales doubtless prolonged the lives of many locals with cataracts.

Depending on the size of the problem, 'travelling medicine shows' may be
woefully inadequate to do anything constructive (although unlike
historical snake oil sellers, the stuff they peddle might actually
work!) ; or they could train up the locals and make a real difference
(citing Hollows as an RW example again). 
	Doing the latter takes planning comparable to any military operation ;
Medicine Sans Frontieres is perennially short of logisticians as well as
medical and nursing staff!

Perhaps we should expand the terms of discourse of this thread.
'Star Mercs' rely on superior off-world expertise, contracting out their
services (any service) to lower-tech worlds.
	The 3I equivalent to Anderson Consulting or Drake ("Solutions, Inc.")
can provide trained individuals and materiel to solve *almost*
any problem, if you pay the fee....

"NikoMak Associates, LIC : Force is the Crudest Means of Imposing Your
Will"


Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 02:24:53 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re:TL8 Medicine

Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote

> Speaking from experience, chemotherapy *is* the Spanish Inquisition.  When
> the nurse comes in wearing all sorts of gear to insure that not a single
> drop of the stuff they are pumping into your veins touches her skin, you
> gotta wonder.  Not to mention that bleomyacin (sp?) burns like hell until
> it dilutes, making the entire arm with the IV feel like it's being eaten by
> Army ants..  TL-8 medicine sucks.

[Apologies if this has already been covered, I am a bit
behind on the TML.]

When you say that Tl-8 medicine sucks I assume you mean in comparison
to TL9 and higher medicine.  IIRC the cure for cancer is TL
9 or 10
according to canon.

However compared to _lower_ TL medicine I think that TL 8 medicine
is wonderful.  I know that I would be dead, probably several
times over,
with TL 5 or 6 medicine.  I suspect that this is the case
for many others as well.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 03:26:37
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses

At 01:27 PM 7/1/99 +1000, you wrote:

>"Yes, I understand this civil war is getting out of hand and disrupting
>vital supplies manufactured locally.  Yes, yes, I understand the Imperium
>has no choice but to step in now.  Oh yes I do know that.  What?  Oh please
>sir, another few weeks is neither here nor there... I do not want Imperial
>Marines anywhere near my world!  Send me the army or we will oppose the
>Imperium's entry into this conflict*"

"You misunderstand me, my Lord, the option isn't yours anymore.  The
troopship Andrew Young carrying the 1/3427th Regiment will arrive in three
weeks.  At that point, this war *will* end.  How it ends is up to you, but
you will no longer be allowed to disrupt trade across this subsector.  I
suggest you and your opponents sit down for some hard negotiating.  Now."

- -- 

Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/gateway.html

TML Great Old One
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 03:28:52
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Marines

At 01:59 AM 7/1/99 -0400, you wrote:

>Like I've already said, I'm not sure that the marines would be expected to
>do the "hearts and minds" routine. Even if a government is *trying* to win
>the hearts and minds of a population, not every branch of the armed services
>will be handing out candy bars to little kids or helping to relocate people
>living in areas where fighting is growing more intense.

"Give me your hearts and minds or I'll burn your Godd**n hut down."
- -- 

Doug Berry
dberry@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~dberry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 20:35:34 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Xenobiology 101 : Introductory Remarks

Ian 'Peez' Ferguson wrote :-
> Is there a reason that life could not be based on trivalent
>         building blocks? I realize that this would reduce the 
>         potential complexity, but what if something like Boron
>         (if it was common enough in a system) was used in place of
>         carbon?
Firstly, thanks for passing a keen eye over over my ramblings.
My casual knowledge of boron chemistry was distilled into the post.
I will try and find some appropriate references to answer both
questions.

Gut feeling : there is a lack of appropriate solvents for boron
compounds unless they were combined with carbon or silicon to get around
the 'boron hydride' problem (they react explosively with water, oxygen
and most of the solvents I listed later in the post).

Apparently several groups have replaced the nitrogen atoms in a wide
range of organic compounds with boron. This is intriguing. Again, I will
try to dig up some info (RW commitments willing).

Jon Zeigler wrote :-
> Oh, my.
> 
> Where were you when I was working on the rules for First In?
> 
> Giving me *lots* of things to think about. . .
> 
Thanks for taking notice of my scratchings!


Gentlemen, I'd like a little bit of input into what to cover next.
Any suggestions?
> What's in the Next Post?
> Body plans, and a little about evolution, plants and ecology.
> 

Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 20:57:24 +1000
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Xenobiology 101 : From Primordial Soup to Cells (long, longish)

David Summers wrote :-
<with regard to early polymer formation>
> The key is "relatively".  This is one of the significant issues
> in the field, particularly for amino acids.  Drying cycles is
> one of the mechanisms that have been invoked, but it is not
> entirely satisfactory.

True. As Leonard Erickson has repeatedly alluded to in recent posts, the
'catalytic clay' theory is becoming more popular. I should have spent a
little more time going over various theories ; but this series is
designed to stimulate idea exchange, primarily.

I'm more than happy to sit back, see what comments come in and make
appropriate modifications.

On 'which came first' :-
> There is evidence that amphiphiles may have formed,
> or been delivered by meteorites, first and formed "protocells"
> (see the posters discussion on cell membranes).  These then
> contained reactions and may even have had catalytic effects.

Do you have a reference for your last statement? I'd love to read about
catalytic activity in fatty acids ; my (possibly misinformed) stance on
this is that this group of compounds is unlikely to behave in such a
way.

But, like the carbohydrates, perhaps they haven't been put together in
the right way.. yet.

Regarding the development of isomerism :-
Again, I should have covered some of the alternate theories.
In optically active systems, it is energetically 'cheaper' to develop
enzymes, etc. that will handle only one isomer. This must afford
evolutionary advantage to those replicators that deal exclusively with
one isomer.
	David, your other points are well taken. Constructing peptide chains
out of D-amino acids would make an interesting, if not overtly Ph.D.
worthy, project.

<one isomer everywhere?>
> This is probably better for Traveller because it explains why,
> since everyone is alway trading food around, most species can eat
> alien food.
 
But our 20 amino acids aren't the only possible ones. There are six
equally likely alternates to tryptophan that have the same empirical
formula, for example.

Alien food is as immunogenic as your local nosh, but may cause bloating,
wind and diarrhoea because you can't absorb funny sugar X or amino acid
Y. Or some complex organic in the foreign food acts as an
anti-infective, anti-tumour drug or causes hallucinosis.
	Sky's the limit for intriguing possibilities.

Thank you for taking the time out to read my post!
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 23:42:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 001-0

In mail you write:

> What day way the founding day of the Third Imperium?
>
> Excel 97 has a date function that says Jan 9 4531 is a Tuesday. That is 
> theoretically the benchmark date.
>
> BUT, is it a Tuesday?
>
> Does the Excel 97 function recognize Feb 29 4000 as a valid date? The 
> Traveller Solomani calendar (perhaps at odds with the current concept of the 
> Solomani calendar) says that every 4th year is a leap year, but the 00 years 
> are not, but every 400th year is (ie, 1600, 2000, 2400). That makes 4000 a 
> leap year.

Ok, right up the there, you are consistent with the Gregorian calendar.

> The Traveller universe makes the further adjustment that years 
> divisible by 4000 are not leap years.

Here you part company with the Gregorian Calendar. BTW, the Russian
Calendar (adopted from the Orthodox churches) has a somewhat different
rule:

        Every year which when divided by 900 leaves a remainder of 200
        or 600 is a leap year.

This corrects the year length more accurately than the 4000 year rule
does.

 
> If the excel function recognizes Feb 29 4000 as a valid date, then Jan 9 
> 4531 isn't a Tuesday. What should it be?

A Monday. It's really quite simple. You've dropped Feb 29, 4000. Thus
all dates from that point onward are one day earlier.

BTW, thanks for letting us know about this. I was about the start
writing date routines for interconverting the calendars. You've just
saved me from making a mistake.

I do have a question though. I can't recall if the Imperial Calendar
has leap years every 4th year (like the old Julian calendar), never has
leap years, or has the 100/400 year rule. Which is it *officially*.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:01:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 001-0

In mail you write:

> At 08:37 AM 6/28/99 -0400, CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
>
>>Traveller Solomani calendar (perhaps at odds with the current concept of 
> the 
>>Solomani calendar) says that every 4th year is a leap year, but the 00 
> years 
>>are not, but every 400th year is (ie, 1600, 2000, 2400). That makes 4000 a 
>>leap year. The Traveller universe makes the further adjustment that years 
>>divisible by 4000 are not leap years.
>
> This is the current concept of a leap year. 1900 was not a leapyear, but
> 2000 will be. 4000 will not be. This is because the length of a year is
> not 3.25 but (IIRC) 3.241 days. (Or some other ridiculous number like that.
> You'd think that knowing we were the center of the universe, things would
> turn out differently.)

Please check the Calendar FAQ. The 4000 year rule has been *suggested*.
But it is *not* part of the legal definition of the calendar (which,
for the UK and all former British colonies *including* the US is
defined in an Act of Parliment, and *does* have to 4 year, 100 year and
400 year rules).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:11:57 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 3dmapping

In mail you write:

> WOW!
> Can you tell me how to take three points on a grid and translate it into 
> bearing
> and mark?

Could you be a bit more specific as to *exactly* what you want?

Assuming that what you want is to take the (x,y,z) co-ordinates of two
points and generate a relative bearing, it's doable, but *messy*. 

The "simple" part is modifying the (x,y,z) co-ordinates so that one
ship is at (0,0,0). You just add/subtract the same amount to the X, Y
and Z co-ordinates of *each* ship. 

Then you just do a rectangular to spherical co-ordinate transform. The
new co-ordinates will be theta, phi and r. Theta is the angle from the
X or Y axis (I forget which). Phi is the angle from the X-Y plane. And
r is the distance from the origin. 

If that's what you want, I'll dig up the formulas, but they are messy.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:21:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: MedTraders

In mail you write:

> David Healey wrote:
>> 
>>> However, I just got this great image in my head... MedTraders. The
>>> crews of these merchant ships include those who are well trained in
>>> high-tech medical techniques. They jump from world to world on a
>>> circuit selling what low-tech folks will pay most for: a way to
>>> circumvent disabilities. They carry the best generic prosthetics
>>> money can buy: arms, legs, eyes, high-tech pacemakers, stuff like
>>> that.  Some see their role as a romantic ideal: providing relief to
>>> the unfortunate. Others, however, are opportunistic and they pore
>>> over newsfeeds and are often the first to arrive after rebellions,
>>> wars and disasters...
 
>> Now *that* is a cool idea.  Mind if I nick it ?  The image of the
>> mercenary doctor ...  That's just the ticket for an adventuring
>> party as it easily caters for any mix of character motivations.

> I like this idea myself, and will probably implement it IMTU.
>
> Now, to calm down the profit-hungry private doctor ships, there will
> probably be an organization like the Red Cross that does the same
> service, but charges far less.

I suggest that all of you go looking for old Murray Leinster
paperbacks. One of the many "series" he wrote involved the Med-Ship
Service. Lots of ideas, and not *that* hard to adapt to Traveller. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:26:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Cray OS (Was : Vilani Lies)

In mail you write:

> Not what is happening on a Beowulf. To imagine later TL8 computers used
> by free traders between Earth / Luna / Mars / the international space
> station, there would be a graphical display of the planets, you would 
> click where you want to go, and some sexy algorithm will determine what
> gravity wells you should use as slingshots.

With Traveller drives, there's no point in doing slingshot manuevers.
Those save fuel, but cost time. given the low fuel consumption of the
few manuever drives that even *use* fuel, it just ain't gonna happen.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 00:28:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Mercenary Doctors (was re: CT Skills)

In mail you write:

> David Healey wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Now *that* is a cool idea.  Mind if I nick it ?
> The image of the mercenary doctor ...  That's just the ticket for an
> adventuring party as it easily caters for any mix of character motivations.
>
> "Sure, I can give you back the use of your limbs.  What's it worth ..... ?"
> *thumbing scalpel and glancing hungrily sideways at unfortunate*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Add in the competition between these mercenary doctors and the
> IISS department responsible for the controlled spread of technology
> within the Imperium.
>
> Now wouldn't this get the IISS's attention: a plague breaks out on a low
> tech planet, a disease that isn't usually fatal, but tends to leave the 
> victim 
> blinded due to retinal damage. A "mercenary doctor" just happens to 
> show up a week later, with a cargo bay topped off with cybernetic eyes...

Not that far from the plot of one of Leinster's Med-Ship stories. But
the Med service doesn't approve of that sort of thing. And crossing
them can be *really* bad news.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 22:05:33 +1000
From: "The Roc" <roc@kewl.com.au>
Subject: Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses

- ----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 01, 1999 3:26 AM
Subject: Re: Girlie Marines that wear (Battle) dresses


> At 01:27 PM 7/1/99 +1000, you wrote:
>
> >"Yes, I understand this civil war is getting out of hand and disrupting
> >vital supplies manufactured locally.  Yes, yes, I understand the Imperium
> >has no choice but to step in now.  Oh yes I do know that.  What?  Oh
please
> >sir, another few weeks is neither here nor there... I do not want
Imperial
> >Marines anywhere near my world!  Send me the army or we will oppose the
> >Imperium's entry into this conflict*"
>
> "You misunderstand me, my Lord, the option isn't yours anymore.  The
> troopship Andrew Young carrying the 1/3427th Regiment will arrive in three
> weeks.  At that point, this war *will* end.  How it ends is up to you, but
> you will no longer be allowed to disrupt trade across this subsector.  I
> suggest you and your opponents sit down for some hard negotiating.  Now."
>

From the Office of the Sector Capital:  I am sorry Commander, but the
Emperor agrees, that for political reasons beyond your obvious
comprehension... the Andrew Young will be several sectors away from this
situation and we do not care to have marine presence within "Cooee" of the
place.  We have a more politically palatable regiment of Lift Infantry
enroute as we speak.  Move your faceless baby-eaters out of system now or be
relieved of command.

To which, the Army arrive, and conduct a politically favourable mission
(perhaps this world has felt those micronukes before, and never again?),
leaving the city virtually intact, while the Andrew Young is following
orders assisting Customs patrols in the Upperkickatinalong Sector...

- --  The Roc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 05:45:48 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Battle Riders

>Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 16:55:04 +0100
>From: Chris Thompson <u12ct@abdn.ac.uk>
>Subject: Battle Riders
>
>How many battle riders are normally carried by a battle tender and of
>what displacement?

Canonical examples run from three to eight riders. There are no firm
guidelines on size, but 20,000 to 100,000 dtons is probably a good guess.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 01 Jul 1999 06:29:07 -0600
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: More Battle Dress stuff

>Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1999 11:38:26 -0500 (CDT)
>From: jmaclean@ix.netcom.com
>Subject: Re: More Battle Dress stuff
>
>	Just a thought, but has anyone figured out the ground pressure of this 
>beasty?  I remember looking at the Scout/Commando suit and back-of-
>the-envelope figuring that it's ground pressure was much greater than that
of 
>a tank.

It's in the description: Ground Pressure Low (1,065 lb/sf); it had to be
calculated to arrive at Off-Road Speed. This is the same rating as the M1
tank in VE2 (p. 141). There appears to have been a deliberate effort on the
part of the designer to reduce ground pressure by making the legs huge in
proportion to the rest of the body: 

	200lb pilot	Commando BD	increase
Head	0.5 cf		1 cf		x2
Body	2 cf		6 cf		x3
Arms	0.2 cf each	0.4 cf each	x2
Legs	0.5 cf each	2.6 cf each	x5.2

So forget about all those illustrations of cool-looking, man-shaped
battledress. When you consider that there is a limit to how wide the stance
of the trooper within the suit can be, and remember that the volume of
armor is *not* anywhere taken into account, you can see that all that
excess volume has to go on the front, back, and sides of the legs. This
thing is a troll, with bulbous legs, a barrel chest, and tiny (in
proportion) head and arms. Add the flight pack, and you get a hunchback as
well.

Someone asked about maintenance: by GURPS rules (p. VE146), the Commando BD
requires 4 hours of maintenance after 32.4 hours of use. Call it 4 hours
out of every 36. This means that your Commando BD force would require one
mechanic for every 3-6 suits. Regular Improved BD (p. GT118) requires 4
hours of maintenance after 80 hours of use, or one mechanic for 8-16 suits.
The variation depends on how many hours you work your mechanics a day, from
8 to 16.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 1999 09:29:17 -0400
From: Walter Smith <SmithW@HARTWICK.EDU>
Subject: re: Girlie Marines who wear (Battle) Dresses

Douglas Berry wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
"You misunderstand me, my Lord, the option isn't yours anymore.  The
troopship Andrew Young carrying the 1/3427th Regiment will arrive in three
weeks.  At that point, this war *will* end.  How it ends is up to you, but
you will no longer be allowed to disrupt trade across this subsector.  I
suggest you and your opponents sit down for some hard negotiating.  Now."
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Cut-and-paste the above, hand to a player whose Marine officer just
badly blew a reenlistment roll. The above was probably said by an
Imperial diplomat or other non-military representative - but once the
Marines land, the noble in charge of this world is going to hold the force
commander personally responsible for damages caused that don't
meet *his* expectations of a best possible outcome. Especially if the
guy giving the above speech is too high for the world's noble to touch.

This noble didn't win this world out of a crackerjack box. He has it 
because he has connections and influence. His 3rd Cousin the Sector
Duke may think him an idiot, but an idiot with a noble patent has more
clout than a Marine Colonel. If someone's head has to roll because
the Marquis de Garda Villis' pet Museum of Interstellar History got
micronuked, the Marine officer in charge on the ground will look like a 
mighty tempting target.

How can said scapegoat target protect his career? Time to get as good
at playing politics as he is at planning assaults...or be so damn good
at planning assaults that someone big and important wants to keep
him around. (Of course, in the latter case, his career lasts as long
as the big important guy does).

Walt Smith

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1999 #799
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