Traveller-digest            Friday, 19 July 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 271

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Psionic auto-mindprobe?
         2. Re: Psionic auto-mindprobe?
         3. Re: Terran History:  Canada
         4. Re: Realism
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #266
         6. Re: Virus of my Virus
         7. Re: Alien Races
         8. Re: Aliens
         9. Re: Subs and Ships
        10. Re: Planing  Supercarriers
        11. F-16 Engines
        12. More Canadian horn-blowing
        13. Re: Jump Drives
        14. Terran History: Canada
        15. Re: Fighters in SPACE
        16. Re: Realism
        17. Re: Name for E-Mag?
        18. Re: Fighters in SPACE

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Seemann <mark@dk-online.dk>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 15:23:30 +-200
Subject: Psionic auto-mindprobe?

Hi all Travellers

One of my players have a psionic character with telepathy, awareness and =
telekinesis. The character is considering mindprobing herself to see =
what happens. She has the skill and the power to do so.

My question is, though, what will actually happen if she does so?

Will everything unconscious be revealed for her? Will she goes insane? =
Or will she aquire spiritual enlightenment? Is it possible at all? Or is =
there a danger for an infinite recursive loop? A finite recursive loop?

Any ideas?

TIA

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann/

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 09:59:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Psionic auto-mindprobe?

Personally, as a referee who has GMed many psi characters, I would not
allow this.  It does not make sense to me.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 1996 22:50:25 -0800
Subject: Re: Terran History:  Canada

On 18 Jul 96 at 15:54, Glenn M. Goffin spewed:

> >From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
> 
> >> Believe it or not, Rock and Roll is considered to have started in Ontario,
> >> Canada.  I don't remember who the artist was, but some Canadian is credited
> >> with cutting the first Rock and Roll song.  

Notwithstanding Mr. Young's contribution... the first rock record is 
generally considered to be Rock Around the Clock by Bill Haley and 
the Comets...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 09:57:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Realism

On Friday, July 19, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> 4. consider the *consequences* of the new laws. For instance, thruster
>    plates lead to near c missiles, unless you can find a way around it.

Now that they are gravitically-based, just dictate a speed limit
of about 0.01c (still high, but not TOO high). I use that number
because some HEPlaR craft (and things like Orion I) could get to
around that speed anyway (but it's a one-way trip for them :-).

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 06:57:36 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #266

Darryl Adams wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, derek stanley wrote:
> 
>>
>>Actually she wasn't born in Vancouver, she's from Campbell River (?)
>>something like that.  She was discovered in the crowd at a BC Lions
>>football game and became the Labbats Blue Girl.
> 
>And they say that Australians are a wierd mob. What the bl**dy hell is a
>Labbat Blue Girl???

It's a beer.  Kinda like a bud girl or what have you.  Maybe she was a 
Molsen Girl???
 
>>Lets not forget, William Shatner, horrid captian of the Enterprise, 
>>James Doehan (?) intrepid engineer of the Enterprise, Michael J. Fox, 
>>Alanis Morissette, Brian Adams, Most of the Original Cast of SNL, Dan 
>>Acryod (?), John (the great one) Candy, Martian Short, Harrold Ramis, 
>>Rick Morannis, Dave Thomas, Lorne Greene, Sarah Chalke, Jason Priestly, 
>>Alan Thicke (you can keep him), Cynthia Stevenson etc. etc. etc.
>>
>> and the list of famous Canadians goes on and on and on...
> 
>The scarey thing is that they ALL had to leave Canada to become famous.
>We also had this thing, where you did not make it unless you made it
>oversees. Fortunately this has resulted all the bimbo's and himbo's from
>our soaps to go to england to wear strange clothes at pantomines and 
>pass out at American pubs.

Yep I'm pretty sure just about every culture in the world has 
expericenced the, "sure you're huge here kid but you're really no one 
till you've made it in America."

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 07:11:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Virus of my Virus

Wes Payne wrote:
> 
> Thus spake Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>>Anyway the Virus Safe computers of the Regency are actually already
>>infected in the first place.  They're just infected with a domesticated
>>strain of Virus that sit's there quietly waiting for another strain to
>>enter the computer.
> 
>You've probably already been 'zinged' for this, but:  It was the RC, not
>the Regency, that adopted 'domesticated' (Peacemaker) virus strains for
>their own shipboard computer systems, as detailed in the "Vampire 
>Fleets" sourcebook.  That same resource also, quite unmistakably, points 
>out the Regency opposition to such an action.  Check out the quote about 
>"pacts with devils" if you've got it.

You know I should have known this, and you are the first person to zing 
me on it.  I was thinking about Peacemakers and Snakes.  There is a 
section in the main TNE book about domesticated Viri in the Regency but 
this is super secret.  Shhhhhhhh!!!  Don't tell anyone Shhhhhhhh!!!

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 07:14:16 -0800
Subject: Re: Alien Races

On 18 Jul 96 at 10:14, William F. Hostman spewed:

> >I think you're probably correct with the latter statement...  What I want to
> >know is who they patterned the K'kree after???  ;-)
> >
> >Stu
> IMHO, Probably the Mongols... The mongols ruled russia for over a century;
> they didn't bother with direct control... but the punishment for
> non-conformity to their government was the death of the "rebelious"
> subjects. So who are the Hivers modeled after?

I don't really see even the Mongols comparing all that well.  A large 
number of the Mongols conquered China...then they saw that China had 
more things to offer than a short and dangerous life roaming the 
steppes...so they settled down...and their descendents became 
Chinese...

If the Mongols were like the K'kree, they'd have walked into China, 
exterminated the Chinese, then moved on elsewhere...

Stu 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 07:23:44 -0800
Subject: Re: Aliens

On 19 Jul 96 at 1:55, gdw.support@genie.com spewed:

> > So who are the Hivers modeled after?
> 
> Damfino. Why does _every_ race have to have a single inspiration?

It would have been pretty pathetic if they had...  Even what 
comparisons you can make about some of the races break down if you 
take them too far...

I think that all of the Traveller aliens have something in common 
with cultures from Earth, but I don't see any of them being exact 
fits...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 07:52:43 -0800
Subject: Re: Subs and Ships

On 19 Jul 96 at 0:08, David C.. Broussard spewed:

> I doubt in modern naval warfare that a sub would get a torp shot at a
> carrier.  They are too well protected.  More likely an Oscar class Cruise
> missile style sub could take out a carrier.

Actually a missile sub might have a harder time in some 
ways...considering the SAM's and close defense systems on your 
typical carrier group...

Never say never...  My understanding is that subs have gotten "shots" 
off against Carriers quite a few times in exercises...  

On the other hand, it would be tough.  In a pinch the carrier can 
travel at a speed of only a few knots less than your average torpedo, 
and it is heavily escorted by a variety of sub hunters:  S-3 Viking 
aircraft, helicopters, and of course all those wonder frigates and 
destroyers that are part of a carrier escort group...

A modern sub though, is a tough opponent for anybody...  

> Torps are too slow, and too short range to get a shot in on a carrier. 

Depends on the torp...  The British Swordfish reportedly has a speed 
of 70 knots... Most Russian & American torps would still have a 10-12 
knot advantage in speed...not enough for a long range shot...but good 
enough if you get close enough...

> Figure that the ASW screen goes out minimum 50 miles from a carrier, it
> would be a challenge.  Although near to a coast a particularly reckless
> D/E Captain might sit on the bottom waiting for the group to pass
> overhead, then if he was lucky he might get off ONE shot.
> DCB

Actually, in shallow waters, the submarine has the edge in ASW 
matters...lots of ground clutter to mess the heck out of active 
sonar, no room to drag a passive sonar "tail", etc...

You might want to think in terms of one spread...  Any sub getting 
close enough to a carrier is probably going to throw everything but 
the kitchen sink at it...if for no other reason than that 1 torpedo 
won't kill a carrier...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 10:55:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Planing  Supercarriers

At 08:55 PM 7/18/96 -0500, you wrote:

>Yeah, but it's a lot prettier framed in the reticle of a periscope. ;)
>Of course, a torpedo might have a little trouble catching her if she were
running
>fast enough plane, but if you did get her, Rock and Rolll!!
>
>There's just subs and targets.  (of course, some targets shoot back! :)  )
>


<*AHEM!*>  Look behind you... there's a Spruance watching you! :) 
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 96 10:58:50 -0400
Subject: F-16 Engines

Hi,
I asked my Dad who works at Pratt & Whitney, (They make the 
engines for the F-16 and several other jets) if a private
citizen could buy an engine. He said that the Government
paid for the R&D of the engine, so they control who can buys
one.  That is why Arm sales to foreign countries must have
congressional approval.  

My Mom then suggested trying to buy an engine from a foreign country
that had bought some, but of course that is fairly illegal, but
that doesn't stop many Traveller players. :)
Lewis

------------------------------

From: Tom Opgenorth <topgenor@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 09:17:38 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: More Canadian horn-blowing

> Least we forget the inventor of standard time zones, can't remeber his 
> name 
He was Sir(?) Sanford Flemming.

Other things / people that are Canadian
     Basketball
     Bangalore Torpedos
     The first radio transmission was made in Canada, can't remeber by who
     Banting & Best - I do believe that Banting was the Canadian.

> And they say that Australians are a wierd mob. What the bl**dy hell is a 
> Labbat Blue Girl???
Labatt's Blue is one of the more popular beers up here.  Pamela 
Anderson-Lee was choosen to run around in minimal clothing and 
advertise the beer for Labatts.

I saw a movie last night called Canadian Bacon.  Hilarious movie.  With 
the end of the Cold War, the Yank's need a new enemy to keep their 
military factories going.  So they beging this massive campaign of 
anti-Canadian propaganda.

===========================================================================
Tom Opgenorth                               topgenor@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Edmonton, Alberta,Canada                 http://www.worldgate.com/~topgenor
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manubay's Laws For Programmers:
  1.  If a programmer's modification of an existing program works, it's
      probably not what the users want.
  2.  User don't know what they really want, but they know for certain what 
      they don't want.
===========================================================================



------------------------------

From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 16:30:07 +0100
Subject: Re: Jump Drives

 Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu> said:

>As it stands, barring some error during the transition to J-space, or
>the destruction of the ship, nothing that happens on board will change
>the duration or destination of the voyage.


While this is true from canon - ie. once you have entered jump space
your destination and the time it takes to get there are fixed - damage
to the jump grid while in jumpspace should cause problems.  A big hole
blown in the hull can allow the jump bubble to intrude, placing part
of the ship off-limits.  Too big a hole, and the thing inrtrudes to a
catasrophic degree, so the vessel never arrives.  Obviously, the
catastrophic effect doesn't lead to a great adventure ("...there is a
big bang, which shakes the ship despite the inertial dampers. The jump
field monitors go haywire, redlighting across the holoHUD, and then
the entire vessel shudders under the compression of the encroaching
jumpspace as the jump field fails.  You die."), but the former can
result in some frantic moments.  See SOM for a description of a hull
breach in jumpspace.

Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

From: Ron Dawson <rdawson@cgc.ns.ca>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 15:31:44 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Terran History: Canada

> From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
> On Thu, 18 Jul 1996, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> > >> Believe it or not, Rock and Roll is considered to have started in Ontario,
> > >> Canada.  I don't remember who the artist was, but some Canadian is credited
> > >> with cutting the first Rock and Roll song.  
<snip>
> > Neil Young?
> 
>    Yeah, that's the guy I was thinking of. 
> 
>    After I posted, I started thinkingh sbout this. I think the original
> poster is wrong (unless he wasn't thinking about Young), b/c Neil couldn;t
> possibly have published stuff before Elvis. 

I'm surprised as well at this.  I'd heard that it was Ronnie Hawkins (sp?)
who was the Canadian father of Rock 'n Roll.  The Band (Robbie Robertson
et al) was origianlly his band before going their separation.

- - Ron


------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 08:33:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Fighters in SPACE

On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, Wes Payne wrote:

> > ships, as the larger ships can get the same armount of armour for less
> > displacement % of the ship.
>
> That may be true for water-going vessels, but the title of this thread
> includes the word "SPACE", as in outer space.  The point I made, that Mr.
<snip>
 Yes, well rember that in Traveller massiv amounts of armour are
effectivley the water in that same therory. Larger ships can have more
armour with less % wise penelty.
<snip>
> fighters were simply so much smaller.  Fighters in Traveller, to be truly
> effective, would have to rely on the fact that they're more difficult to
> detect than larger ships, perhaps being able to deliver a missile 'sucker
> punch' before the opposing capital ships had time to react.
 This is the therory that I support. I feel that while having super-nimble
fighters may be cool, it a: isn't very realistic and b: you don't get
big old battleships(Look at Rifts<shudder>, the large battleships are so
out gunned by less then a tenth of their price in fighters. That's what
would happen in Traveller most likley)

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 10:38:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Realism

>When was the last time you heard of a bridge or building failing due to
>improper design? When they do it makes nationwide news. Failing for
>lack of maintenance, yes. Due to sabotage or natural conditions
>exceeding design parameters (earthquake, flood, etc), yes.

Actually, in the Eighties (I think) the John KHancock building (in Boston)
kept shedding windows in "high" winds (we're talking relatively normal
conditions, not hurricaines or storms).  They closed the entire square
underneath it and had to conduct a major redesign of the fittings for the
windows.  I'd call this a 'suprise'.

The same building is/was responsible for causing the landmark Trinity
Church next door (a 150 year old structure) to begin "sinking" because the
enormous pilings for the Hancock bldg had undermined the strata in the
area. 

Another building in Boston (Ruggles Center) had to be evacuated within a
year of the time it was built due to unexpected enviromental conditions as
the insulation installed became airborne.  Definitely a building
"failure".

Pete


------------------------------

From: cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com (Dragoness Eclectic)
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 15:56:18 GMT
Subject: Re: Name for E-Mag?

On Jul 18, 1996 18:02:00, 'jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)' wrote: 
 
E-zine name:  
  Free Trader <something> ? 
   
>While you're at it, throw in a few titles for some of the 
>things you'd like to see as regularly appearing themes - kind 
>of like "Ship's Locker" and "Contact" were in the original 
>JTAS. 
 
ship/vehicle/equipment designs: "From the Drawing Board" 
interesting places: "Scout Service Reports"  
(maybe do this as a series of "Scout Service Reports from <> Sector"?) 
 
                --Cynthia 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
Alt.gothic.CR Master-at-Arms ---------- cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com

------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Fri, 19 Jul 1996 11:03:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Fighters in SPACE

On Fri, 19 Jul 1996, Wes Payne narrated:

> Thus spake Bri <bri@teleport.com>:
> 
> > On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, David C.. Broussard wrote:
> 
[lets snip some stuff here] 
> > > That has not always been a requirement, but it has been the case for a
> > > while.  Fighters and other aircraft are hard to hit because they usually
> > > move so much faster.  Traveller's problem is just like Wes said, the
> > > Capital Ships can often move just as fast as the fighters.  Oh well.
> 
> The point I made, that Mr. 
> Broussard noted, was that many of the capital ships in Traveller could 
> accelerate just as quickly as could fighters, negating their 
> speed/maneuverability edge. With the attention required to reaction mass 
> (which limited just how much acceleration could be done), an edge for 
> fighters over capital ships might be afforded in TNE/BL, but in earlier 
> starship combat systems, there were many ships which, although being 
> thousands of times larger than fighters, were just as nimble.  This 
> problem will return along with thruster plates.
> 
> A possible fighter advantage, which many people, including Mr. Broussard, 
> touched upon, was the lower sensor cross section...[snip]

Another possible advantage, non-canonical, which should/can be given to
fighters and certain other small craft is a higher G limit.  I know, you
say, 6G is the limit, but consider; Big vessels with large crews have the
need for their crew to walk around and work at full acceleration.  This
means the (canonical) limit of 6G is a restriction of the inertial
compensators, not the actual manuver drive (whatever that may be).  You
know as well as I do that fighter pilots in atmosphere have been known to
take as much as 9G for brief periods of time.   We also know that there
should be no barrier to increased acceleration with an increased manuver
drive size and power input.  I would therefore postulate that a Traveller
fighter craft could routinely accelerate at about 9G, this being 6G of
'compensated' acceleration and 3G of 'uncompensated' acceleration. 

In fact, it is the fitness of the pilot, the sophistication of their 'G
suit' and the reclined, seated position which would dictate the G limits
of the occupants.  The limits of the craft itself need to be set at
construction time, and reduced by any damage taken (this can be translated
from hits with a manuver drive result - sometimes it's the ship's
structure or inertial compensators which are limiting manuver
speed, not actual manuver drive damage). So unpassengered
ship's boats and grav vehicles should be similarly capable if built to a
higher G specification originally.

The problem now is that this makes fighters and small craft too important.
Fighters now make critical long-range sensor platforms ("The eyes and
ears" of a fleet or ship).  Plus, no small vessel will ever be able to
outrun a fighter equipped unit in a straight chase.

Something to think about, anyway.

Pete     


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #271
**********************************
