Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3600
Date: | 2/5/01 2:56:48 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, February 5 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3600
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Recoil, Second Thoughts....
Pagin Mark Cook
Freetrader Deckplanes and ship info
Re: Request for info
Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
Re: Uhhhhh
RE: Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
Re: 52 million ton hull!
Re: Request for info
re: Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift
Re: Lasers
RE: Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
Villani Invasion Early Warning Network.
Re: Lasers
Re: Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift
RE: "Hard" sci-fi and Traveller
Re: Solar Power in Traveller
Re: Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift
Re: Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift
re: More Interstellar War Thoughts (semi-long)
Re: [Website Review] Spinward Marches Trade Map
Re: Islandwhana and Roark's Drift
Re: ATTN Downport
Re: Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift
The Russians invented it first?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 20:31:11 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Recoil, Second Thoughts....
Leonard Erickson wrote:
> It's *hard* science fiction. Which means that you aren't allowed to
> just wave your hands around problems in science or engineering.
"Allowed" is a very strong word. "Not intended to" is better. Any
referee may change anything about the game, remember? ;-)
Still, I do agree. This is not space opera. It's *science* fiction.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:36:42 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Pagin Mark Cook
Mark,
Can you get in touch with me immediately?
Loren Wiseman
Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society http://jtas.sjgames.com/
SJ Games
lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
(512) 447-7866 VOX
(512) 447-1144 FAX
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:06:03 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: Freetrader Deckplanes and ship info
I am looking for Freetrader (ie Beowolf) deckplans in the small size that i
can look at. also ship statistics. jump drive size ect.
anyone got a url?
thanks
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 20:10:49 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Request for info
Jeff Rowse wrote:
> Can anyone tell me the effects of someone siting a fighter-type radar on the
> floor below my office? Laymans' terms preferably cos we're IT types!
> Fairly urgent 'cos they wanted to put it in last week...
>
> Thanks in advance,
> Jeff Rowse.
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
In laymen's terms - generally very problematic up to 10s of metres (although an
aircraft radar is a focussed beam which probably won't be pointing up to your
floor but you will probably be in a sidelobe which is a beam that goes off in
another direction to that being purposefully illuminated - function of radar -
sorry about that :-) but will depend totally upon the exact type/power etc).
Basically put, the closer the worse by a big magnitude.
If it was me, i wouldn't be ******g happy about it until i had it all worked out
(get the guys below to go through the radar range equation with you to show you
a rough order of what the power level would be at the range you are).
Good luck.
Si
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 12:18:42 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
If anyone can help me out, please send to BOTH of my addresses:
jdegraff@pacbell.net
jedegraf@cisco.com
Thanks for the help!
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:01:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Uhhhhh
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
>owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
>
>> Clint Eastwood did an excellent
>> documentary (entitled "Firefox") on how the US stole the
>>technology from the Soviets.
>
>Tongue firmly in cheek here, I hope?
I'm the one who wrote it. What do you think?
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:59:28 -0600
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com>
Subject: RE: Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
Done!
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jesse Degraff
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 2:19 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
If anyone can help me out, please send to BOTH of my addresses:
jdegraff@pacbell.net
jedegraf@cisco.com
Thanks for the help!
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:09:27 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: 52 million ton hull!
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
> Timothy Little wrote:
> > How about six separate toruses?
>
> The toruses would need to have slightly different radii (or they would
> be connected).
Of course :)
I was thinking an arrangement a bit like Saturn's rings. I must
admit, having different inclinations might be more flexible. I would
be worried about the complexity of traffic-control through. With a
single orbital plane, you could just designate one hemisphere as
"approach", and the other as "departure".
One thing I'd like to know, is how traffic control deals with ships of
greatly differing acceleration capabilities? There would also have to
be provision for drive failure at any time. I suspect designing safe
traffic-flow patterns would be a Hard problem.
> > Or one torus and five stations that are each merely huge?
>
> Could work, but I get a sudden vision of a huge station smashing
> into a even larger torus...
Well, I guess you'd put them in different orbits.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:08:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Request for info
In mail you write:
> Can anyone tell me the effects of someone siting a fighter-type radar on the
> floor below my office? Laymans' terms preferably cos we're IT types!
> Fairly urgent 'cos they wanted to put it in last week...
If the emitter is aimed at you, it would be bad.
It also is likely to violate a *bunch* of safety regulations unless
they put in shielding, and make actual *measurements* of RF field
strengths.
It's not going to "explode rabbits". It could cause tissue damage of
varying levels, and also could lead to things like cataracts from
prolonged exposure.
In the US I'm *certain* there are federal regulations detailing what
they can and can't do.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:08:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift
>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
The 1964 movie with Michael Caine is rather good. So far as I know the
history, it is very accurate, but I have never read a definitive text on
the battle.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 11:04:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Lasers
In mail you write:
> At traveller tech levels, a mostly-solid-state laser rifle doesn't seem
> impractical; it'd be modular, of course, for repairs, but generally
> mud-tight.
> Focusing and adaptive optics could be done through solid-state
> transmissive elements rather than mirrors. Keeping mud off the exit window
> would be the tricky part - tiny windshield wipers, perhaps? (or a proper
> electrostatic charge on the window to at least repel dust?)
How about a recessed emitter, with a cover that's "blown" out of the
way by a bit of compressed gas. The laser trigger has an interlock with
a pressure sensor. If the pressure doesn't drop fast enough, the
"barrel" must be blocked. Otherwise, the escaping gas helps clear
"crud" out.
The gas cartridge could be part of the magazine.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:14:38 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
Done on the deckplans anyway, which are very nice.
Now I need pictures if they exist.....
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Matthew W. Helton
> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 12:59 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: RE: Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
>
>
> Done!
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jesse Degraff
> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 2:19 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
>
> If anyone can help me out, please send to BOTH of my addresses:
> jdegraff@pacbell.net
> jedegraf@cisco.com
>
> Thanks for the help!
> Jesse
>
> "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
> deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:19:30 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Villani Invasion Early Warning Network.
As every loyal TML member should be aware.
Art Bell returns to the airwaves tonight in 8 Hours, 48 Minutes.
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
==============
AMAT VICTORIA CURAM.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:20:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Lasers
Leonard Erickson writes:
> How about a recessed emitter, with a cover that's "blown" out of the
> way by a bit of compressed gas. The laser trigger has an interlock with
> a pressure sensor. If the pressure doesn't drop fast enough, the
> "barrel" must be blocked. Otherwise, the escaping gas helps clear
> "crud" out.
Seems overly complicated. I suspect you'd just use a shutter and have
cleaning material available. Or do something like an eye, and have cleaning
fluid.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 13:29:28 -0800
From: Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com>
Subject: Re: Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift
on 2/5/2001 1:08 PM, Glenn Goffin wrote:
> So far as I know the
> history, it is very accurate, but I have never read a definitive text on
> the battle.
I have, but it was years ago. As I recall, the depiction of the battle
itself was pretty accurate for a movie. Some differences:
1. This wasn't actually addressed in the movie, but the attack on Rorke's
Drift was against orders. King Cetswayo had given very specific orders that
his troops were not under any circumstance to cross the river into
Natal--the idea being to make it clear that the Zulus were just defending
themselves.
2. Lts. Chard and Bromhead wanted to run away before the Zulus arrived but
Colour Sergeant Bourne convinced them they had a better chance if they
stayed where they were.
3. The priest and his daughter were apparently made up for the movie--there
was no mention of them in the history. The native auxiliaries ran away
without any encouragement.
4. The scene where the two sides were singing at each other didn't happen.
In fact, "The Men of Harlech" wasn't adopted as the regimental song of the
24th Regiment until two years later.
- --
Ken Hagler
| ICQ#: 34591293 | For PGP key send mail with |
| http://www.orange-road.com/ | subject "Send PGP Key". |
| And tho' we are not now that strength which in old days |
| Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are --Tennyson |
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:36:27 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: RE: "Hard" sci-fi and Traveller
>It's *hard* science fiction. Which means that you aren't allowed to
>just wave your hands around problems in science or engineering. A few
>things (like jump drive) are taken as givens. The rest has to conform
>to the laws of physics (Especally since they aren't going to change.
>They may get *extended*, but any "changes" will be in the fine print).
Actually, I would make the claim that Traveller isn't really a hard
science-fiction roleplaying game. It's a roleplaying game which attempts to
recreate a specific sub-genre of science-fiction. This is far from saying I
agree with Ray's claim that it's science-fiction so you can make things up
as you go along, but it's just as far from the claim that Traveller is
ultra-realistic as well.
Lasers and energy weapons are a staple of the science-fiction stories and
novels which Traveller is grounded in. They are arguably an integral part of
the look and feel of the universe the game is trying to recreate. I'm
unaware of any version of the game, from CT to GT, in which lasers are not
presented as a viable choice for personal armament. While I can acknowledge
that in real life it's entirely possible that we may never, ever see
personal laser weapons, I also have to acknowledge that they are one of the
game's background assumptions. Lasers are one of the conventions that Marc,
Loren and the folks at GDW used to throw up a red flag about the way the
universe works
In a certain sense, the existence of lasers cuts deeper than even much of
the "Third Imperium" background.
Note that I'm not saying, nor do I mean to imply, that you're a bad person
(or that you're not playing "Traveller") if you choose to not use personal
laser weapons in your campaign. I'm also not saying or implying, that you're
a bad person (or that you're not playing "Traveller") if you choose to have
personal laser weapons so common that they're sold in every convenience
store in charted space. The real core-truth of the matter is that I base my
opinions about people on more substantial issues, and I've never really been
into micro-managing how other people play Traveller.
What I am trying to say is that a holler from the "hard science-fiction"
camp about the improbability of lasers or other energy weapons ranks at
about the same level as a holler from the "it's science-fiction, so
anything's possible" camp concerning the dominant nature of laser weapons.
The simple fact is that Traveller materials don't really support either side
in this particular argument. Unlike you're claiming, Trav really isn't hard
science-fiction, and unlike Ray's claiming, it really isn't "you can do
anything" science-fiction either.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:43:27 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Solar Power in Traveller
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> No, because pulverized material doesn't become magically opaque.
> Useful directions are any directions which get the water out of the
> way.
It becomes a *lot* more transparent after it expands, increasing the
optical depth from a few millimetres to many centimetres. Much of it
also cools and recondenses on the cavity walls, even on these
timescales.
> The main energy requirement here (>50%) is for the material in the
> cavity, we'll say the hole is 5mm on a side,
The longitudinal enlargement is substantially greater than the lateral
expansion. The material that must be moved isn't well approximated by
moving a fixed block of solid.
Another thing you have neglected is the fact that the back of the
cavity has momentum -- it is already moving at about 800 m/s by the
time the next pulse hits. That is actually one of the reasons why the
longitudinal expansion is significantly greater. The continuing
lateral expansion helps too, in a lesser sense.
> Now, the way you're imparting energy into the cavity is by
> vaporizing water. In effect, this is a rocket equation -- the force
> of boiling water is what is driving the remaining material inward.
That's right. However, it is not a rocket from rest to over 1000 m/s
each pulse. Only the very first pulse does that. It is better
approximated by a 'slug' being propelled through viscous tissue by
ablative laser thrust. Of course, the slug isn't really a slug, and
there are significant losses. However, neglecting the momentum of the
material in the cavity is a very poor approximation. I can see why
you might think the energy requirement should be so much higher.
> Assuming the boiling water is moving at 2.5 kilometers per second
> (requiring roughly 5 kilojoules per gram, including heat of
> vaporization) we need to vaporize 0.05 grams of water, taking 250
> joules.
The actual amount of water vaporized would be about 0.008 grams, with
an average "exhaust velocity" of 1800 m/s. This (roughly speaking)
drives about 0.04 grams of material from 800 m/s to 1200 m/s. That
material meets significant drag, but retains enough energy to be still
moving at 800 m/s by the time the next pulse hits.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:03:02 -0800
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift
So all in all one of Hollywood's more historical attempts.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Hagler" <khagler@orange-road.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 1:29 PM
Subject: Re: Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift
> on 2/5/2001 1:08 PM, Glenn Goffin wrote:
>
> > So far as I know the
> > history, it is very accurate, but I have never read a definitive text on
> > the battle.
>
> I have, but it was years ago. As I recall, the depiction of the battle
> itself was pretty accurate for a movie. Some differences:
>
> 1. This wasn't actually addressed in the movie, but the attack on Rorke's
> Drift was against orders. King Cetswayo had given very specific orders
that
> his troops were not under any circumstance to cross the river into
> Natal--the idea being to make it clear that the Zulus were just defending
> themselves.
>
> 2. Lts. Chard and Bromhead wanted to run away before the Zulus arrived but
> Colour Sergeant Bourne convinced them they had a better chance if they
> stayed where they were.
>
> 3. The priest and his daughter were apparently made up for the
movie--there
> was no mention of them in the history. The native auxiliaries ran away
> without any encouragement.
>
> 4. The scene where the two sides were singing at each other didn't happen.
> In fact, "The Men of Harlech" wasn't adopted as the regimental song of the
> 24th Regiment until two years later.
> --
> Ken Hagler
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 22:04:12 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift
Ken Hagler wrote:
"1. This wasn't actually addressed in the movie, but the attack on
Rorke's Drift was against orders. King Cetswayo had given very specific
orders that his troops were not under any circumstance to cross the river
into Natal--the idea being to make it clear that the Zulus were just
defending themselves."
This is accurate. The Zulu "impi" (their regimental equivalent) that
attacked the Drift had missed out on the previous day's fight at Isandhlwana
and was rather miffed about the fact. They were disobeying orders and were
out "tuft" hunting; they were looking for a fight in order to grab some
glory/notoriety. They did become famous, just not the way they wanted to.
King Cetswayo was removed from the Zulu territory after the war and
brought to Britain. Strangely enough, he became quite a favorite among all
classes, an "A" class party guest and subject of many music hall ditties.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:08:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: More Interstellar War Thoughts (semi-long)
This one has been bouncing around the X-Boat system for a week, and has
come back to me, so I'm sending it back to the list:
>From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
[excellent discussion deleted]
I think that the dates have become skewed. I think (without looking at
any source material) that the Treaty of New York post-dated contact with
the Vilani at Barnard's Star. It makes more sense to me that the only way
in which the various nations would give up control over their military
forces would be in the face of a real extraterrestrial threat. Coming to
the brink of World War 3 seems no more likely to motivate everyone in the
world to give up control of their armies to a central government than did
the experiences of the previous world wars. To the contrary, fear would
make people more likely to try to retain control of their own forces.
As far as Terran development of the jump drive, I think that the Greys,
who are a subject race of the Vilani (maybe they are the real Vegans) have
been leaving the details in crop circles and other places for some time.
The Greys/Vegans are not themselves strong enough to get their freedom
from the Vilani, but they believe that because the Terrans are the same
species as the Vilani, the Terrans will be able to overthrow the Vilani
and free at least this region of space from Vilani domination. (And of
course they are correct.)
The Greys/Vegans do not have quite the foresight to realize that the
Terrans are as likely to exploit the Vegans as the Vilani were.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 16:13:43 -0600
From: Terry Mixon <tmixon@ghg.net>
Subject: Re: [Website Review] Spinward Marches Trade Map
"Trevor, Peter" wrote:
> Improvements: A few cosmetic adjustments to the front page
> wouldn't go amiss. Beyond that, to make this site a true
> resource for merchant campaigns it would benefit from some
> articles on trade (perhaps something to explain that trade volume
> with a Zho planet, maybe something exploring the effect temporary
> and otherwise of the 5FW, more 101 cargos, a bulk freighter
> design, etc).
Thanks for the feedback!
My schedule doesn't leave me as much free time to add to the site as I
want so I will start where I can. What cosmetic changes to the front
page would
you recommend?
Regards,
Terry Mixon
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:51 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Islandwhana and Roark's Drift
In-Reply-To: <3a7ea8eb.15378007@post.demon.co.uk>
Greetings dear hearts.
Point of Information: if you wish to pronouce it, "Isandhlwana" is said
pretty much as it looks - "I-sandal-waa-nah"
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:51 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: ATTN Downport
In-Reply-To: <001901c08f20$2de54720$c926a318@nc.rr.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
Stop strutting you lot. My medals site is nearly 800 pages and there are
many more countries to do... :-)
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 14:51:40 -0800
From: Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com>
Subject: Re: Isandhlwana and Rorke's Drift
on 2/5/2001 2:03 PM, Dave Strebe wrote:
> So all in all one of Hollywood's more historical attempts.
Well, it was an English movie... :-)
- --
Ken Hagler
| ICQ#: 34591293 | For PGP key send mail with |
| http://www.orange-road.com/ | subject "Send PGP Key". |
| And tho' we are not now that strength which in old days |
| Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are --Tennyson |
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 17:47:09 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: The Russians invented it first?
Was written:
>> Clint Eastwood did an excellent
>> documentary (entitled "Firefox") on how the US stole the technology from
>> the Soviets.
Historically there is an example which while not as dramatic is indeed true,
ribbon bridge. First seen by the west on Soviet TV late in the 1960's.
The footage showed a strange huge suit case like apparatus on trucks being
backed up to a river. Hay presto the "suit case" slides off the truck
deploys and 20 feet of high quality floating bridge appears. This was at a
time when it took trucks, a crane, an air compressor and an US Army Engineer
platoon approximately 8 hours to do the equivalent task. Talk about
shivers, recall if you will the defense doctrine of the time and just how
many rivers there are in Europe should the Red hoard come through the Fulda
gap. Story goes we started back engineering from the footage darn quick.
Then we got a chuck curtsey of the Israeli's who had captured some during
the 73 A/I War. The neat thing is that it uses no technology that wasn't
available in WWII and is far more economical and serviceable than what it
replaces, M4T6 float.
In game play I suggest that there is the possiblity of neat little low tech
local solutions to common problems which take advantage of local materials
possibly with a little bit of higher tech assistance. I thus can see a set
of Paternoster chain pumps circa 13th century Earth being powered by a power
take off from a wrecked ATV or perhaps an internal combustion engine running
on methane generated by....
Dan
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3600
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From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)
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Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3600
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3601
Date: | 2/5/01 7:35:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, February 5 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3601
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Rangefinding discussion with background.
CT fonts question
Traffic control (was: 52 million ton hull!)
Re: CT fonts question
Re: The Russians invented it first?
Re: ATTN Downport
Re: ATTN Downport
Re: ATTN Downport
Re:Uhhhhh
Re: CT fonts question
RE: CT fonts question
RE: Lasers
World map template needed
Re: ATTN Downport
Re: CT fonts question
Re: World map template needed
Re: Solar Power in Traveller
Re: [TML] Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
MT starship combat
Re: CT fonts question
RE: [TML] Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
re: More Interstellar War Thoughts (semi-long)
Re: ATTN Downport
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:07:52 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Rangefinding discussion with background.
Was written:
>I was under the impression Bows and Crossbows were used by the British up
>into the 1960's for some Special Ops troopers before the Sterling
(Patchett)
>L34A1 became standard issue.
Got my info from a book called, if I am remembering correctly, "The English
Longbow" which is intended to be the history of the weapon. Its a round
somewhere if you want me to find it for a full cite. By the way crossbows I
can believe, it is a lot easier to go from a rifle to a crossbow than from
either to a bow.
Dan
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:11:46 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: CT fonts question
Does anyone know what fonts were used on the CT box (both the 'Mayday'
message & the actual Traveller logo itself)?
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 00:23:59 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Traffic control (was: 52 million ton hull!)
Timothy Little wrote:
> One thing I'd like to know, is how traffic control deals with ships of
> greatly differing acceleration capabilities? There would also have to
> be provision for drive failure at any time.
Ask real-world airport traffic control. Same thing, but not using the
third dimension as much. Algorithms exist for handling that kind of
problem, but they are very complicated.
> I suspect designing safe traffic-flow patterns would be a Hard problem.
It gets even harder with full use of the third dimension...
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 16:27:58 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: CT fonts question
knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> Does anyone know what fonts were used on the CT box (both the 'Mayday'
> message & the actual Traveller logo itself)?
Adobe's Optima is a very close match, if not the same font.
Loren has said what it was, but it was a font available on the IBM
typesetter GDW was using at the time, and is not, IIRC, available under
that name.
There are similar fonts available as shareware, 'Toronto' and 'Ottowa'
are two names off the top of my head.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 23:55:53 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: The Russians invented it first?
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Was written:
"Historically there is an example which while not as dramatic is indeed
true, the ribbon bridge..."
Weren't our commie pals the first to come up with reactive armor for
tanks too? They needed a way to counter all the shaped charge warheads NATO
was planning to throw at the horde of armor coming down the Fulda Gap. The
Isrealis took quite a few examples off their friendly neighbors in '73 and
shared them with the West.
That kicked off a whole series of armor vs. weapon changes in tanks
worldwide, finally culminating with the "composite" or "Cobham" armor and
the depleted uranium penetrator. Which in turn led to sqawking about
radiation poisoning from the Iraqis and Serbs who'd been on the receiving
end of such rounds...
And the dance goes on.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:56:03 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: ATTN Downport
~I started out with nothing.....I still have most of it left~
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 04, 2001 10:18 PM
Subject: Re: ATTN Downport
> Oops, I was wrong. This was the last spider:
>
> Your site has been spidered.
>
> Our search engine has finished indexing your site:
> Site URL : http://www.downport.com/index.html
> E-mail : webmaster@downport.com
> Site ID : 7110039
> Pages Indexed : 1317
>
> I like to be as accurate as possible lest the TML Old Great Ones banish
me.
>
Isn't that "TML Great Old Ones"?
>
> I guess it's your turn to whip it out and put me to shame...
>
I would but this highway isn't long enough....Ooohhhhh, you were talking web
pages. <blush>
Thom Harris - GOFIR - <Gnarly Old Fart In Residence>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 19:03:23 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN Downport
On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 22:01:15 -0500 (EST), Tod Glenn
<webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>on 2/4/01 5:49 PM, SwordWorlder at SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com wrote:
>> trouble the most. I am looking for a better solution. I will probably change
>> over to JSP as soon as we move the site onto our own servers in the next
>> week or so. With 300+ pages to maintain, I really need to automate as much
>> as possible :-)
>Only 300+ pages. You lucky dog. I wish I only had 300 pages. Fortunately,
>I do have 4 helpers. Glad to see everyone busily working on their sites.
What Swordy may not realize is that in addition to his own 300+ pages, he's
hosting nearly that many on Freelance Traveller alone (last count, from
memory, FrontPage says I have 283 or thereabouts)!
<buffs nails on shirtfront> And Freelance Traveller is a one-man operation,
too! <grin>
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 19:05:30 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN Downport
On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 22:01:15 -0500 (EST), Timothy Little
<tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net> wrote:
>SwordWorlder wrote:
>> Unfortunately, there are some browsers with which it will not work
>> properly due to the size of the include files.
>I thought SSI was exactly what it says -- *server* side includes. How
>does the browser make a difference? All it sees is HTML.
Size, exactly as Swordy said - the resulting page may be too big for some
browsers - especially older ones - to handle.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 19:03:26 -0500
From: Laning <laning@wizard.net>
Subject: Re:Uhhhhh
Glenn, I think you scared me too for a minute there. I don't know about
you, but I've encountered people who believe stuff like that. I'd guess
the odds are about 50/50 that at least one true believer in UFOs and
worldwide government conspiracies actually reads this list.
If you wanted to escape into a full-blown delusional system, you could pick
worse things than the Traveller universe, certainly. :->
Anyway, once I got over the concern that the post was serious, it was
pretty damned funny.
ObTrav: The adventurers just can't help viewing the contents of the pouch
they are bearing as confidential couriers for their patron. The pouch
seems to contain a classified account of an Imperial Naval Intelligence
operation that stole a Zhodani high tech fighter intact. Unknown to the
adventurers, this "classified account" is actually an entertainment vid
intended for distribution on the destination high-pop, high-tech world.
The desire for secrecy and confidential couriers is out of concern for
industrial sabotage of the world premiere of what Tantamount Studios' hopes
will be the biggest hit of the season.
- --Laning (really fnord it's fnord just fnord a fnord joke fnord)
>Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 13:01:35 -0800 (PST)
>From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Re: Uhhhhh
>
>>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
>
>>owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
>>
>>> Clint Eastwood did an excellent
>>> documentary (entitled "Firefox") on how the US stole the
>>>technology from the Soviets.
>>
>>Tongue firmly in cheek here, I hope?
>
>I'm the one who wrote it. What do you think?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 16:22:27 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: CT fonts question
on 2/5/01 3:11 PM, knightsky@juno.com at knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> Does anyone know what fonts were used on the CT box (both the 'Mayday'
> message & the actual Traveller logo itself)?
>
>
> Perry
> "In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
>
>
Optima
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:25:43 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: CT fonts question
http://vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/resources/
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of knightsky@juno.com
> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 3:12 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: CT fonts question
>
>
> Does anyone know what fonts were used on the CT box (both the 'Mayday'
> message & the actual Traveller logo itself)?
>
>
> Perry
> "In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 19:22:37 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: RE: Lasers
Bruce wrote:
>The USAF is funding the YAL-1 airborne laser, which looks likely to be a
>effective anti-theatre-ballistic-missile unit, and (whether it can
>get TBMs or not) will be near-certain death for aircraft out to its
horizon.
>This is a pretty serious program...
I should have qualified my statement. When I was composing what I wrote, I
was thinking more along the lines of personal laser weapons, but I failed to
make that clear. I'm not married to the notion that personal laser weapons
will never pan out, which is why I said that it was entirely possible they
might never exist, not that they would never exist.
But you're right, the USAF has at least one large-scale laser project in
the works, and I seem to recall that a surface-to-air laser emplacement has
already been developed (as somebody else in this thread pointed out, as
well). The role that lasers will have on the battlefield in the future will
be decided by their strengths and weaknesses. If one of the weaknesses of
lasers happens to be that they are "delicate", then it would make sense to
put them in places where frequent maintenance would be the norm. The large
amounts of power they require would also tend to put them in locations where
power would be relatively plentiful. The current designs for battlefield
lasers seem to be pretty much in line with this, which tends to push lasers
at this point into a decidedly defensive role.
Whether they will stay in the defensive role or not is another story
entirely.
I'm a little biased these days, though, because lately I've gotten this
crazy notion into my head that putting a little more thought into the
weapons used in roleplaying games could make them a little more interesting
for everyone involved. As a result, I've been trying to think of new ways to
approach various weapons in role-playing games. None of this really has much
to do with your post, and as it's not strictly a "response", so I'll refrain
from going into it at the moment.
>At traveller tech levels, a mostly-solid-state laser rifle doesn't seem
>impractical; it'd be modular, of course, for repairs, but generally
mud-tight.
>Focusing and adaptive optics could be done through solid-state
>transmissive elements rather than mirrors. Keeping mud off the exit window
>would be the tricky part - tiny windshield wipers, perhaps? (or a proper
>electrostatic charge on the window to at least repel dust?)
There are a lot of ways one could go in trying to keep dust, grime, mud,
scratches and other blemishes off of the exit window. When I composed my
message this morning I was thinking that there are a number of useful
chemicals which already exist and would go some distance towards solving the
problem. Another poster mentioned that something similar to the way we keep
our eyes clean might also prove to be be effective.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 17:38:14 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: World map template needed
Sorry to bug everyone again, but I'm looking for a copy of the Traveller
'orange peel' world map, in Adobe Illustrator if possible, or any photoshop
compatible format.
Thanks.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 20:42:40 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN Downport
><buffs nails on shirtfront> And Freelance Traveller is a one-man operation,
>too!<grin>
Weird HTML tags there, man. Are they particular to Internet Explorer?
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 20:47:31 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: CT fonts question
>>Does anyone know what fonts were used on the CT box (both the 'Mayday'
>>message & the actual Traveller logo itself)?
>
>Adobe's Optima is a very close match, if not the same font.
Try Zapf Humanist 601. It's very close, if not the same, and is the most
commonly used "Humanist" font -- that sort of tapered not-a-serif,
not-a-sans-serif style. Wonderful font. I try to sneak it in wherever I can.
ObTrav: Zapf Humanist is obviously mandated for use in all internal memos
for the Solomani Party.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 20:52:33 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: World map template needed
>Sorry to bug everyone again, but I'm looking for a copy of the Traveller
>'orange peel' world map, in Adobe Illustrator if possible, or any photoshop
>compatible format.
If you haven't got one by tomorrow, e-mail me at this address during
business hours (Eastern Standard) and I can get Corel Draw to spit out an
Illustrator file for you. I'll, uhhhh, do it on my lunch hour...yeah, that's
the ticket!
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:07:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Solar Power in Traveller
Timothy Little writes:
> Anthony Jackson wrote:
> > No, because pulverized material doesn't become magically opaque.
> > Useful directions are any directions which get the water out of the
> > way.
>
> It becomes a *lot* more transparent after it expands, increasing the
> optical depth from a few millimetres to many centimetres.
I said 'pulverized'. Vaporized material, or material thrown out of the hole,
may become more transparent as it expands. Stuff inside the cavity is going
to be compressed, which isn't going to help its transpar
> > The main energy requirement here (>50%) is for the material in the
> > cavity, we'll say the hole is 5mm on a side,
>
> The longitudinal enlargement is substantially greater than the lateral
> expansion. The material that must be moved isn't well approximated by
> moving a fixed block of solid.
I'm assuming a factor of 2 there. The actual material to be moved is
considerably greater than what I'm saying, but its average velocity is
also much lower, so the solid approximation should be close enough.
>
> Another thing you have neglected is the fact that the back of the
> cavity has momentum -- it is already moving at about 800 m/s by the
> time the next pulse hits.
No it won't be. It will slow down quite fast as it hits more water.
> That's right. However, it is not a rocket from rest to over 1000 m/s
> each pulse. Only the very first pulse does that. It is better
> approximated by a 'slug' being propelled through viscous tissue by
> ablative laser thrust. Of course, the slug isn't really a slug, and
> there are significant losses. However, neglecting the momentum of the
> material in the cavity is a very poor approximation. I can see why
> you might think the energy requirement should be so much higher.
The 'slug' being described is very low mass, and can be expected to have
lousy penetration anyway.
>
>
> > Assuming the boiling water is moving at 2.5 kilometers per second
> > (requiring roughly 5 kilojoules per gram, including heat of
> > vaporization) we need to vaporize 0.05 grams of water, taking 250
> > joules.
>
> The actual amount of water vaporized would be about 0.008 grams, with
> an average "exhaust velocity" of 1800 m/s. This (roughly speaking)
> drives about 0.04 grams of material from 800 m/s to 1200 m/s. That
> material meets significant drag, but retains enough energy to be still
> moving at 800 m/s by the time the next pulse hits.
>
>
> --
> IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so-
> kk-- Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 21:05:34 -0500
From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
>Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:59:28 -0600
>From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com>
>Subject: RE: Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
>
>Done!
>
>
>- -----Original Message-----
>From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
>[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jesse Degraff
>Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 2:19 PM
>To: traveller@lists.ient.com
>Subject: Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
Utterly cool, Jesse's doing renders of the corsair! =D THIS I'm looking
forward to.... =)
Cheers
- ---
==============================================================
Jonathan McDermott, CNE/MCSE NOSPAMcaraig@mindspring.com
System Administrator http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Anubis@SpatialWastes -*- Caraig,Dermott@FurryMUCK
IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@
- ------------------------------------------------------------
"Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."
-Steve Wozniak
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:14:58 -0800
From: "A. O'Mary" <omary@my-deja.com>
Subject: MT starship combat
I ran a session of MT starship combat recently and need some clarification of the rules. Of course I came to the TML..
I applied the MT errata to my books but one problem doesn't seem to have been addressed.
If I read the procedure correctly, to penetrate a defense (screen, sand, etc) is a task: Difficult, confrontation, (+ attacker's computer#, -(defender's comp# + value from table)
The tables appear to be arranged with the attacking weapon factor (rows) vs defending screen value (columns). The problem is the values seem wrong. A factor 'A' laser battery has a bigger negative modifier for penetration than a factor '1' laser battery, vs the same sandcaster factor. It makes sense if you *add* the table's value to the 2d6 roll instead of subtracting it.
- ------------------------------------------------------------
- --== Sent via Deja.com ==--
http://www.deja.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 18:19:05 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: CT fonts question
on 2/5/01 5:47 PM, Paul Drye at p_drye@hotmail.com wrote:
> ObTrav: Zapf Humanist is obviously mandated for use in all internal memos
> for the Solomani Party.
>
> Cheers,
> Paul Drye
I laughed until I stopped.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 18:20:30 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
How'd you guess that from my request? j/k ;)
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jonathan 'Caraig'
> McDermott
> Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 6:06 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
>
>
>
> >Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 14:59:28 -0600
> >From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com>
> >Subject: RE: Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
> >
> >Done!
> >
> >
> >- -----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> >[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jesse Degraff
> >Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 2:19 PM
> >To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> >Subject: Need Corsair illos / deckplans ASAP
>
> Utterly cool, Jesse's doing renders of the corsair! =D THIS I'm looking
> forward to.... =)
>
> Cheers
>
>
> ---
> ==============================================================
> Jonathan McDermott, CNE/MCSE NOSPAMcaraig@mindspring.com
> System Administrator http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Anubis@SpatialWastes -*- Caraig,Dermott@FurryMUCK
> IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> "Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."
> -Steve Wozniak
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 15:47:44 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: re: More Interstellar War Thoughts (semi-long)
On 5 Feb 2001, at 14:08, Glenn Goffin wrote:
> This one has been bouncing around the X-Boat system for a week, and has
> come back to me, so I'm sending it back to the list:
>
> >From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
>
> [excellent discussion deleted]
>
> I think that the dates have become skewed. I think (without looking at
> any source material) that the Treaty of New York post-dated contact with
> the Vilani at Barnard's Star. It makes more sense to me that the only way in
> which the various nations would give up control over their military forces
> would be in the face of a real extraterrestrial threat. Coming to the brink
> of World War 3 seems no more likely to motivate everyone in the world to give
> up control of their armies to a central government than did the experiences of
> the previous world wars. To the contrary, fear would make people more likely
> to try to retain control of their own forces.
The Treaty of New York does date from before first contact (2026 IIRC). But
I think its just the UN finally getting around to implimenting Article 47 of the
charter. All this does is call for the various nations to provide a list of forces
that will be available for UN deployment and set a permanent military
committee to oversee such deployments. Still fairly radical, but a lot more
palitable than a standing UN army.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:34:39 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN Downport
Sorry to do this to you, Pal. I tried to let you off easy...
<whipping out the big guns>
http://webstat.primary.net/domain/www.downport.com/usage_200101.html
</whipping out the big guns>
Read 'em and weep, slugger.
:-p
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>
> grand total Traveller webpages: 2,435
>
> Note that the pages for spinwardmarches.com only include details for
Regina
> subsector, which has 692 pages. If we assume similar number for each of
the
> other subsector, we are looking at about about 12,000 pages when it's all
> done. Ouch!
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3601
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3602
Date: | 2/6/01 6:51:43 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 6 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3602
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Lasers (was Re: Recoil, Second Thoughts....)
Science Fiction
Re: MT starship combat
Re: Documentary
Re: ATTN Downport
Re: ATTN Downport
Re: ATTN Downport
Downfall o' the Roman Emp (was something else that I don't remember any more)
Re: Science Fiction
Re: Islandwhana and Roark's Drift
Planetary Navies
RE: Beowulf Deck plans...
Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
Re: CT fonts question
Vargr Scout
Re: Planetary Navies
Re: [Website Review] Traveller Core Route Maps
Re: [Website Review] Traveller Core Route Maps
RE: Beowulf Deck plans...
Re: Islandwhana and Roark's Drift
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 21:45:37 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Lasers (was Re: Recoil, Second Thoughts....)
"Matthew P. Picio" wrote:
>
<<snip>>
>
> 1st time posting to the TML - Hello, all. Here's a link to the Tactical
> High-Energy Laser (THEL). The media gallery has a few excellent pics.
>
> http://www.trw.com/presskits/detailinfo/1,,2_12^2^12^23,00.html
Welcome aboard, and thanks for the link!
Now for your newbie essay assignment:
Discuss the significance of monetary policies in the Second Imperium,
the Sylean Federation, and the Third Imperium. In addition to the
financial collapse that heralded the Long Night, your essay should
address the financial impact of the Zhunastu School of Contact on both
the targeted worlds and the Sylean Federation. Additionally, your essay
should compare the relative strengths and weaknesses of the three
polities' monetary policies.
<<snip>>
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:55:33 -0500
From: "Ray Rangel" <ray.rangel@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Science Fiction
I have been in the computer industry for over 20 years. In that time I have
gone from bootstrapping computers using toggle switches in groups of threes
(facilitating entry of octal digits) to booting off of my CD-ROM using laser
technology.
In 1984 Intel proclaimed that the 80186 was the fastest processor that
physics would allow and that we had hit the "hardware" barrier.
The first computers that I worked on were megawatt eating monster machines
that had performance which is now surpassed by the bottom end Palm Pilot.
Science Fiction? SCIENCE fiction? science FICTION?
Why does assuming that power sources in the future will be more reliable
than they are now break any physical laws? Why does a projection that a
solid state LASER might be constructed in the future with far more power and
reliability than we have now break any physical laws?
The fact is that there are an infinite number of paths that the future can
take and still remain within the scope of the real, physical, bounds of the
universe.
As I have said before, I am on new ground where it comes to the Traveller
universe. I'm sure that if I were (or have) said something that is contrary
to the Traveller Universe as it has been defined by canon, then some one
would be kind enough to correct me. But, so far, I can see no physical
barriers that are insurmountable to the proposals stated for the use of
battlefield LASERs in the far future. The objections, so far, have
identified technological hurdles that must be crossed, but none physical.
What I have seen, though, is the tendency to define tomorrow's possibilities
in terms of today's technological limitations. Intel did the same thing in
1985...just before they proved themselves wrong...again.
All of us that were programming computers by flipping switches, feeding
cards, or punching paper tape would have thought that the concept of a giant
network interconnecting super-computers in millions of homes all over the
world was anything but lunacy. How about billions of bits could be stored on
silvery plastic disks written and read by LASER beams within a package
measuring about 6x5.5x1.5 and running on only milliamps at only 12 volts.
Science Fiction means staying within the bounds of natural law. Ok, I'll go
along with that. Perhaps it's just my nature as an engineer...I just
naturally try to think about things CAN be done instead of why they can't.
That's why I have enjoyed SF for so many years. SF acknowledges the
possibilities rather than the limitations.
Ok, Ray's off his soapbox...sorry for the diversion...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 23:00:13 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: MT starship combat
At 06:14 PM 2/5/01 -0800, you wrote:
>I ran a session of MT starship combat recently and need some clarification
>of the rules. Of course I came to the TML..
>I applied the MT errata to my books but one problem doesn't seem to have
>been addressed.
>If I read the procedure correctly, to penetrate a defense (screen, sand,
>etc) is a task: Difficult, confrontation, (+ attacker's computer#,
>-(defender's comp# + value from table)
>The tables appear to be arranged with the attacking weapon factor (rows)
>vs defending screen value (columns). The problem is the values seem wrong.
>A factor 'A' laser battery has a bigger negative modifier for penetration
>than a factor '1' laser battery, vs the same sandcaster factor. It makes
>sense if you *add* the table's value to the 2d6 roll instead of
>subtracting it.
Hi Art!
Long time no hear!
IIRC, the number on the chart is the number you must roll above, with all
modifiers added to the number on the chart, to hit and penetrate.
Hope this helps!
Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
~Stephen Decatur
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 23:15:47 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Documentary
>>> Clint Eastwood did an excellent
>>> documentary (entitled "Firefox") on how the US stole the
>>>technology from the Soviets.
>>
>>Tongue firmly in cheek here, I hope?
>
>I'm the one who wrote it. What do you think?
I'm afraid I'm a little gunshy on stuff like this due to my membership on the
GAMA committee in charge of defending games against loonie attacks in the
media. Remember that so-called list of over 100 deaths that were linked to
roleplaying games? One of those was the case presented in the "Investigative
book, Mazes and Monsters by Rona Jaffe"!! The people who prepared the list
were serious -- and had clearly never actually read the book (the rest of the
list was almost as ludricrous). And the list, of course, is still circulating
in urban legend . . . "I heard that those games have caused hundreds of
deaths . . . " etc.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 08:17:39 +0400
From: Andrew Long <andylong@emirates.net.ae>
Subject: Re: ATTN Downport
> Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:34:39 -0500
> From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
>
> Sorry to do this to you, Pal. I tried to let you off easy...
>
> <whipping out the big guns>
> http://webstat.primary.net/domain/www.downport.com/usage_200101.html
> </whipping out the big guns>
>
> Read 'em and weep, slugger.
>
> :-p
Hey, I'm in there! That 7th place is all my own work ('cos no-one ELSE has admitted being here in the UAE) (OK, I exaggerate - it's all mine and Teleport Pro's work)
Andy
========================================
Andy Long AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae
========================================
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 20:18:52 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN Downport
on 2/5/01 7:34 PM, SwordWorlder at SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com wrote:
> Sorry to do this to you, Pal. I tried to let you off easy...
>
> <whipping out the big guns>
> http://webstat.primary.net/domain/www.downport.com/usage_200101.html
> </whipping out the big guns>
>
> Read 'em and weep, slugger.
>
> :-p
>
I won't even try to compete in terms of hits. Downport has been around a
lot longer, and has a wider variety of material.
I did find the output from webalizer interesting. I've downloaded the
source to compile later. Nice output.
Hey, I'm just small time, running this all off the Sparc20 on my desk over a
768K DSL line.
I do like to brag that we've got one of the better game narratives out
there, with details of every (weekly) game for the past couple of years.
And I am one of the people keeping your hits up. I gotta check downport at
least weekly for more good stuff.
Keep up the good work.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 23:48:24 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN Downport
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> Hey, I'm just small time, running this all off the Sparc20 on my desk over
a
> 768K DSL line.
Oh, that sounds like it would be lots of fun to test with SiteLoad. Ever had
a stress test done on your sites? :-)
BTW, have you added all of your URLs to the Open Directory?
http://dmoz.org/Games/Roleplaying/Systems/Traveller/ It is the basis for
several search engines and can really drive traffic to your site. Best of
all, it is free. Second best, the editor of the Traveller categories is a
Traveller :-)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 00:12:36 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Downfall o' the Roman Emp (was something else that I don't remember any more)
> Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 00:08:55 -0600
> From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> Subject: Re:
>
> DaveShayne wrote:
> > (Probably improvements in agricultural productivity in the
> > intervening centuries would be the big one.)
>
> That would be climatic changes due to a very large Volcano
> (don't remember which at the time). Ruined crops and agricultural
> productivity for two years. And it happened at the worst possible
> time - with the Huns on the door.
>
> - -bloo
I hadn't come across this one before.
Ob Trav: What other occurances are blamed for the downfall
of the Rule of Man? I suspect that every generation of historians
would put forward a new theory on the "true causes" of the Long
Night.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 21:24:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction
In mail you write:
> I have been in the computer industry for over 20 years. In that time I have
> gone from bootstrapping computers using toggle switches in groups of threes
> (facilitating entry of octal digits) to booting off of my CD-ROM using laser
> technology.
>
> In 1984 Intel proclaimed that the 80186 was the fastest processor that
> physics would allow and that we had hit the "hardware" barrier.
Which was utter bullshit.
> The first computers that I worked on were megawatt eating monster machines
> that had performance which is now surpassed by the bottom end Palm Pilot.
So?
> Science Fiction? SCIENCE fiction? science FICTION?
>
> Why does assuming that power sources in the future will be more reliable
> than they are now break any physical laws?
there's a big difference between "more reliable" and "won't break at all".
> Why does a projection that a
> solid state LASER might be constructed in the future with far more power and
> reliability than we have now break any physical laws?
The problem isn't building one with more power. Not even now. The
problem is that because of the way they work, high power levels will
fry the device. They can't dissipate heat fast enough to stay at a
temperature that won't ruin the junction.
"Potting" things as was suggested means that they will be *harder* to
cool. The coating acts as a thermal insulator. And pretty much *has*
to since getting materials that are good thermal conductors but
electrical insulators is very hard to pull off for reasons having to do
with basic physics.
> The fact is that there are an infinite number of paths that the future can
> take and still remain within the scope of the real, physical, bounds of the
> universe.
No, not *infinite*. But damned large. It's just that ignoring things
like heat dissipation isn't one of them.
> As I have said before, I am on new ground where it comes to the Traveller
> universe. I'm sure that if I were (or have) said something that is contrary
> to the Traveller Universe as it has been defined by canon, then some one
> would be kind enough to correct me. But, so far, I can see no physical
> barriers that are insurmountable to the proposals stated for the use of
> battlefield LASERs in the far future. The objections, so far, have
> identified technological hurdles that must be crossed, but none physical.
BTW, "laser" quit being an acronym some years back. You *don't*
capitalize it that way anymore.
As for the objections, I hope someone will point you to the list
archives.
I'll just summarize by saying that heat dissipation, and keeping the
optics clean are going to be hard *regardless* of the tech level.
> What I have seen, though, is the tendency to define tomorrow's possibilities
> in terms of today's technological limitations. Intel did the same thing in
> 1985...just before they proved themselves wrong...again.
We do that sometimes.. But far more often people *assume* that problems
are hard because our technology is inadequate when in fact our
technology is quite good and the laws of nature make the problem
*inherently* hard.
Heat dissipation is one of those problems.
> All of us that were programming computers by flipping switches, feeding
> cards, or punching paper tape would have thought that the concept of a giant
> network interconnecting super-computers in millions of homes all over the
> world was anything but lunacy.
I hate to burst your bubble, but *I* started programming using FORTRAN
IV on an IBM 370. I've toggled in bootstrap code on a Honeywell
"mainframe" that used 6-bit words, and couldn't handle more than 32k
words of RAM. And I still have a couple of programs punched into paper
tape as "historical artifacts" for impressing the newbies. Right along
with a couple of 5 meg diskpacks from and IBM 2311 drive, and a 256
*byte* core plane.
And I was trying to figure out a way to have what we'd now call an
"online game" back in the mid 70s.
> Science Fiction means staying within the bounds of natural law. Ok, I'll go
> along with that. Perhaps it's just my nature as an engineer...I just
> naturally try to think about things CAN be done instead of why they can't.
> That's why I have enjoyed SF for so many years. SF acknowledges the
> possibilities rather than the limitations.
Sure, but for an RPG, you *do* need to worry about the *limits* the
same as an author does. The limits control the way the story can go.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:46:07 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Islandwhana and Roark's Drift
I always thought it was pronounced with the 'hl' slurred in the Zulu fashion
(I'm sorry I can't remember the technical term for that sound).
eee-san-HLWAN-a
stress on the second from last sylable.
Ben Aaronovitch
Who once studied Ndebele, Shona and Xhosa and ended up mumbling in Krio and
Themne.
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Megan Robertson <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Cc: <mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk>
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 10:51 PM
Subject: Re: Islandwhana and Roark's Drift
> In-Reply-To: <3a7ea8eb.15378007@post.demon.co.uk>
> Greetings dear hearts.
>
> Point of Information: if you wish to pronouce it, "Isandhlwana" is said
> pretty much as it looks - "I-sandal-waa-nah"
>
> Hugs and kisses,
>
> Mexal.
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 11:01:01 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Planetary Navies
Is there a consensus on the size of planetary navies with regard to their UWP?
Ben
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 11:08:58 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Beowulf Deck plans...
>
>Jesse Degraff wrote:
>> I think Loren said that an AHL would be approximately 50-55
>pages :D I'm
>> game if you're game ;)
>
>Jens: The scary thing is that it wouldn't be impossible...
>
>You might want to add a few pages of diagrams explaining which pages
>connect to which pages, though...
Woo-hoo! ACQ with Cardboard Heros, anyone? :)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 12:23:51 -0000
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
Subject: Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
...for your help. I have cut-and-pasted into a Notepad doc which I will
share with my colleagues. Quick background (names changed to protect the
Terminally Stupid):
Adam wants to install a radar test rig on the ground floor of 'my' building.
Brian, my local Health & Safety 'Representative' (with no applicable
background at all) doesn't see anything particularly risky in this.
Charlie, my colleague, asks if anyone knows what a worst-case scenario
might be.
I had a *very* rough idea (RF induction heating, most of the energy goes
straight out but it does still radiate other directions too, should be safe
if shielded correctly) so thought I would ask people who really *do* know
what they are talking about..
Oh, and Brian now tells me that the installation could be months away...
Aaarrggh!
Thanks again,
Jeff.
"Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so."
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 07:52:30 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: CT fonts question
Thanks! This is exactly what I needed.
On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:25:43 -0800 "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
writes:
> http://vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/resources/
>
> Jesse
>
> "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> safety
> deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of
> knightsky@juno.com
> > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 3:12 PM
> > To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> > Subject: CT fonts question
> >
> >
> > Does anyone know what fonts were used on the CT box (both the
> 'Mayday'
> > message & the actual Traveller logo itself)?
> >
> >
> > Perry
> > "In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________________________________________
> > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
>
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 12:59:50
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Vargr Scout
Does anyone have the GT stats for this ship that appeared in AM3 but not in
GT AR 1...
TIA
Mike non gearhead type
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 14:36:51 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Planetary Navies
Ben Aaronovitch wrote:
> Is there a consensus on the size of planetary navies with regard to their UWP?
Pocket Empires (with help from Imperial Squadrons) could answer these
questions for you, I believe.
However, they are T4 supplements. Pretty good ones, but still...
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:59:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: [Website Review] Traveller Core Route Maps
Howdy!
>
> BTW, does anyone know how to get AOL60 to send just text mail rather than
> this gibberish which is coming out at the bottom of my TML posts? (Must get
> linux box hooked up before I go crazy)
>
This appeared on another mailing list:
Here is the final word on stopping HTML from staying in AOL email, as
approved by an AOL user.
If you have installed AOL's version 6.0 software, and have trouble
with being unable to turn off HTML in your email, there is a solution.
For AOL email using Windows:
(1) Change your font to Arial 10 if not already on Arial 10 (Arial 10
is the AOL default).
(2) Write your message.
(3) Highlight the entire message (including signature) using the
mouse (or do ctrl-A to do the same thing).
(4) Right click anywhere within the message itself. A 'popup menu'
appears. Move the cursor to "text", and another menu will appear.
Move the cursor to "normal" and click on it.
My thanks to Ron Parker who runs the Tabletweaving List for pulling
this together.
yours,
Michael
- --
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:00:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: [Website Review] Traveller Core Route Maps
Howdy!
>
> Nice one. I just downloaded Cliff's Core route zip, then saw his warning. So
> that will make me happy. I really like Gal24 - it's perfect for Mac users
> who have to deal with emulation speeds. I am planning to try some Tcl/Tk
> software I saw on http://www.radix.net/~herveus/traveller/ that professes to
> be able to use the same map files though. Particularly since running Virtual
> PC on MacOS 9 under MacOS X is a bit overkill (oh for a native OSX PC
> emulator). ;)
>
That is Perl/Tk software...you really need a *nix box to use that effectively
yours,
Michael
- --
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:29:23 -0500
From: "Charles Prevatte" <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Beowulf Deck plans...
I think it would be a viable product. The AHL was one of the most popular
products of it's type in the CT line (IMO). I would be interested in this
product. The ASL has been the map of choice for many a game for me.
Some extras that would be nice if they were included would be ACQs, the AHL
supplement book, some adventures, some ACQ senerios, and some card board
heros.
How about a Gurps book with all the text and smaller 'planning maps and the
full scale maps in ether a boxed set or as separate but complemetary
products?
I think the ship maps are a very viable product line and I am looking foward
to new editions...espicially the ASL.
Loren, is there any chance that this could be done?
ps, My FLGS recently delivered into my hand a collection of Twilight 2000
materials with a very familiar sounding name as the author for a great many
of them. I have thourghly enjoying them. Have you considered a TW2000
Gurps world book?
Charles L.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jones, Dean
> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 6:09 AM
> To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> Subject: RE: Beowulf Deck plans...
>
>
>
>
> >
> >Jesse Degraff wrote:
> >> I think Loren said that an AHL would be approximately 50-55
> >pages :D I'm
> >> game if you're game ;)
> >
> >Jens: The scary thing is that it wouldn't be impossible...
> >
> >You might want to add a few pages of diagrams explaining which pages
> >connect to which pages, though...
>
> Woo-hoo! ACQ with Cardboard Heros, anyone? :)
>
> Dean
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:44:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: Islandwhana and Roark's Drift
Howdy!
Stephen wrote:
>
> According to the 3W game notes of the battle, Rorke's Drift pitted
> three Zulu regiments (the uThulwana, uDloko and iNdulyengwe) with
> about 3000-4000 men between them, against 152 British soldiers, mostly
> from B Company, 2nd Battalion, 24th Regiment (South Wales Borderers).
> The TL4 troops suffered 18 killed and 13 wounded, making a 20%
> casualty rate. I don't know the Zulu casualties (although I suspect
> they realised that the outpost wouldn't be easy to take and gave up
> attacking it, rather than actually being "beaten" in the sense of
> "huge casualties and broken morale").
>
I saw bits of a documentary about the battle that included modern
reenactors attempting to set a more precisely accurate scene than
the movie did as well as discussing the sequence of events.
I do recall seeing and hearing remarks that the Zulus did get inside
the perimeter something like a dozen or more times in the course of
the battle.
All in all, a rousing good story and a fine movie.
yours,
Michael
- --
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3602
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3603
Date: | 2/6/01 1:40:10 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 6 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3603
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [Website Review] Traveller Core Route Maps
Re: Documentary
Re: Islandwhana and Roark's Drift
Islands subsectors
RE: CT fonts question
RE: "Hard" sci-fi and Traveller
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Islands subsectors
RE: Islands subsectors
Re: Islands subsectors
Re:Uhhhhh
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Islands subsectors
Terraforming tips
Re: Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
Re: Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
Re: Traffic control (was: 52 million ton hull!)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 06:50:45 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [Website Review] Traveller Core Route Maps
on 2/6/01 6:00 AM, Michael Houghton at herveus@Radix.Net wrote:
> Howdy!
>
>>
>> Nice one. I just downloaded Cliff's Core route zip, then saw his warning. So
>> that will make me happy. I really like Gal24 - it's perfect for Mac users
>> who have to deal with emulation speeds. I am planning to try some Tcl/Tk
>> software I saw on http://www.radix.net/~herveus/traveller/ that professes to
>> be able to use the same map files though. Particularly since running Virtual
>> PC on MacOS 9 under MacOS X is a bit overkill (oh for a native OSX PC
>> emulator). ;)
>>
> That is Perl/Tk software...you really need a *nix box to use that effectively
>
> yours,
> Michael
Well OSX is built on BSD 4.4. A port should be trivial, if someone hasn't
already don it.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 09:56:59 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Documentary
>Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 23:15:47 EST
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Documentary
>I'm afraid I'm a little gunshy on stuff like this due to my membership on the
>GAMA committee in charge of defending games against loonie attacks in the
>media. Remember that so-called list of over 100 deaths that were linked to
>roleplaying games? One of those was the case presented in the "Investigative
>book, Mazes and Monsters by Rona Jaffe"!! The people who prepared the list
>were serious -- and had clearly never actually read the book (the rest of the
>list was almost as ludricrous). And the list, of course, is still circulating
>in urban legend . . . "I heard that those games have caused hundreds of
>deaths . . . " etc.
>
>LKW
>
>------------------------------
Bugger! Are you still doing that, Loren? The committe work, I mean. Are
there still a lot of attacks (above and beyond Frank Chick pamphlets, that
is) becasue, to be honest, maybe I've been blissfully ignorant and unseeing
of any, but I haven't run accross any. (Watch, with my luck, someone will
whip out yesterday's Newsweek proclaiming Traveller the newest and most
powerful incarnation of Der Teufel.)
Cheers
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 15:24:00 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islandwhana and Roark's Drift
>From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Stephen wrote:
"According to the 3W game notes of the battle, Rorke's Drift pitted
three Zulu regiments..."
I dug out my copy of the game too after seeing this thread. Like most
of the products foisted on the public but the late, and unlamented, 3W
company, it's dman near unplayable. In this case, however, 3W isn't to
blame. Unlike most of their other offerengs.
The battle is probably one of those actual events that CAN'T be made
into a good wargame. Antietam is another example of this.
In any Antietam game, the Union played must be shackled by rules to
prevent him from using the entire AoP at the same time. If McClellan had
bothered to do so, the AoNV would have been destroyed. In order to
"balance" the game, the designer has to insert rules to keep the Union
player "stupid". Probably the most fun, tactical Antietam game to
incorporate rules of this type is XTR's version.
Rules of this type in all wargames are actually known as "McClellan
rules". Such is fame...
A Rorke's Drift game would have to have "McClellan rules" for the Zulu
player. A modern player, not operating with the 1879 Zulu mindset and
cultural strictures, would easily crush Company B of the 24th Foot.
To summarize all my blather; some historical conflicts can be
SIMULATED, but that doesn't mean they will then be FUN or INTERESTING to
play.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 16:08:18 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Islands subsectors
Gentlemen,
This topic has most likely been flogged to death here on the TML, but
I'm a newbie so bear with me.
Why didn't the 3I annex or conquer the Islands?
The gap between the Ilelish sector and the Islands is either 6 parsecs
(as stated in TCS) or 8 parsecs (as mapped by DGP). The smaller gap could
easily be surmounted by a pre-Civil War, jump-3, Imperium. The larger could
be crossed by the Imperium around the time of Civil war, because the jump-4
X-boat network was put in place at then.
None of the future Island powers would have navies or large armies
prior to the 3I's arrival. Neither were necessary in the sub-light culture
of the cluster. Navies, if they existed, would be in-system customs
patrols. Armies would be skewed towards anti-terrorist, gendarme, or
disaster relief rather than planetary defense. After all, Serendip Belt was
able to subjegate most of the Islands with the single advantage of the jump
drive.
The 3I undertook a huge colonization effort "Behind the Claw" sending
settlers and traders by the millions into the Deneb, Marches, and Trojan
Reach sectors. GDW's SMC states that there were very few pre-existing human
settled worlds from the 1st or 2nd Imperiums in the region, so the 3I just
didn't absorb already settled worlds like they had in other regions.
Instead they had to ship everyone and everything there from the main body of
the Empire.
Now, Mora was settled in 60, Regina by 75, and the big settlement push
in the Marches took place between 200 and 400. So all these settlers, their
kine and kiddies, their furniture and farm equipment were shipped there
THROUGH the Corridor sector during the same time (210-348) that the Navy was
playing "dog catcher" there.
Why didn't some bright light in the Ministry of Colonization, or some
other department, see the Islands as another route to the new worlds "Behind
the Claw"? I'm sure many a colony ship or convoy was hit by Vargr raiders,
each time with with huge loss of life and materials. No one ever looked for
another route?
The Navy fought the Vargr campaign over FOUR generations, and then just
to push back our furry friends two subsectors coreward. Not one of the
Navy's planners or admirals looked for another route just in case they
couldn't stabilize Corridor enough for civilian traffic? Or for an
alternate path for re-enforcements against the Zho's just in case the Vargr
portion of the Outworld Coalition managed to pull their collective head out
long enough to disrupt travel through the Corridor Sector?
T:NE's RSB has maintenance starved vampire fleets doing it easily
enough and often enough to destroy Island worlds. The vampires supposedly
do it often enough that it forced the Regency to annex the area for
quarantine reasons.
So, why couldn't the Third Imperium?
Can't wait to hear you takes,
Larsen E. Whipsnade
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 08:27:47 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: CT fonts question
No prob, that's why I put it there :D
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of knightsky@juno.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 4:53 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: CT fonts question
>
>
> Thanks! This is exactly what I needed.
>
> On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 16:25:43 -0800 "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
> writes:
> > http://vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/resources/
> >
> > Jesse
> >
> > "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
> > safety
> > deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> > -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> > > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of
> > knightsky@juno.com
> > > Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 3:12 PM
> > > To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> > > Subject: CT fonts question
> > >
> > >
> > > Does anyone know what fonts were used on the CT box (both the
> > 'Mayday'
> > > message & the actual Traveller logo itself)?
> > >
> > >
> > > Perry
> > > "In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________________________________________
> > > GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> > > Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> > > Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> > > http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
> >
>
>
>
> Perry
> "In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
> Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
> Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
> http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 11:44:21 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: "Hard" sci-fi and Traveller
Chris Seamans writes:
>>It's *hard* science fiction. Which means that you aren't allowed to
>>just wave your hands around problems in science or engineering. A few
>>things (like jump drive) are taken as givens. The rest has to conform
>>to the laws of physics (Especally since they aren't going to change.
>>They may get *extended*, but any "changes" will be in the fine print).
>Actually, I would make the claim that Traveller isn't really a hard
>science-fiction roleplaying game. It's a roleplaying game which attempts to
>recreate a specific sub-genre of science-fiction. This is far from saying I
>agree with Ray's claim that it's science-fiction so you can make things up
>as you go along, but it's just as far from the claim that Traveller is
>ultra-realistic as well.
<snipped>
I would support your claim. Traveller (at least CT) is harder SF than
many other games, but is nowhere near as hard as it could be.
I find this to be a Good Thing (tm), and I suspect that it would not
have enjoyed the success that it has if Mr. Miller had made it 'hard'
SF.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:10:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
> Gentlemen,
>
> This topic has most likely been flogged to death here on the TML, but
> I'm a newbie so bear with me.
>
> Why didn't the 3I annex or conquer the Islands?
Mostly because it's J7 from anywhere, and really not worth the bother.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 09:30:34 -0800
From: Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
on 2/6/2001 8:08 AM, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> This topic has most likely been flogged to death here on the TML, but
> I'm a newbie so bear with me.
>
> Why didn't the 3I annex or conquer the Islands?
Actually, that's a good question. :-)
The Imperium didn't know the Cluster was inhabited until after the Fourth
Frontier War. So, they wouldn't have known there was anything to annex or
conquer.
I could think of two possibilities why they didn't colonize:
1. It's a long way to go--11 parsecs from the nearest Imperial
high-population world. Maybe it's economically unfeasible to colonize
systems that are so far from the nearest major planet?
2. The Imperium is incredibly slow to do anything. Maybe one branch of the
Imperial government intended to colonize, but before they got around to it
the Cluster was full of high-population worlds with jump drive (courtesy of
the Scouts and that misjumped cruiser).
- --
Ken Hagler
| ICQ#: 34591293 | For PGP key send mail with |
| http://www.orange-road.com/ | subject "Send PGP Key". |
| And tho' we are not now that strength which in old days |
| Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are --Tennyson |
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:30:40 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Islands subsectors
Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Why didn't the 3I annex or conquer the Islands?
<snip>
My take on this is:
IIRC the initial exploration behind the claw was done by traders
who eventually made contact with the Sword Worlds and the
Darrians. While commercial interests may have access to J4 they
would prefer cheaper low jump vessels ... unless Corridor was
teaming with Vargr corsairs the occasional lost ship was probably
justifiable on the balance sheet. And thus a trade route was
established, together with demands from the merchants to the
Emperor for protection. With a trade route (established in 60)
and IN protection already committed it makes more sense in 210-
348 to send colonisation ships that way too, especially since at
least part of the transportation task would have been contracted
out to those same commercial interests.
With Corridor itself being colonised the IN were fully committed
to its defense. Opening up a second line through the Islands
Cluster would never have been a priority and was probably shelved
indefinitely due to budget concerns.
Also, I think the Vargr problem was overstated. The 3I was not
waging an all-out war against the Vargr ... I think the reason it
lasted 4 generations is that the bulk of naval activity was
convoy escort duty (with only the occasional seek and destroy
mission).
Finally, there's a psychological motivation. No true-blood
Sol^H^H^Hhuman is going to be denied the easier Corridor route
and forced to use the more difficult Islands Cluster route by a
bunch of jumped-up doggies with delusions of grandeur!
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 17:42:21 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
"Mostly because it's J7 from anywhere, and really not worth the
bother."
The cluster would be a secure, Imperial-only second route to "Behind
the Claw". There are several systems with Terra-like worlds and many more
marginal and resource systems. None are heavily populated (except
Esperanza) and none are really defended. Any Imperial military mission
would have a cakewalk.
The Imperium would have another bit of exploitable territory, another
route to the Marches, and two more subsectors for the nobility's extra kids
to find fiefs in. And all of this could be had for cheap, but the fear of
having to use deep space fuel depots or drop tanks keeps the Imperium away?
Please.
The 3I supposedly spent all sorts of blood and treasure to clear the
Corridor and futzed around for decades near Vland looking for shortcuts
along the Great Rift's coreward edge (they even knighted the gaggle of
scouts who led those fruitless missions), but wouldn't have "bothered" to
annex the Islands to secure another route?
Sorry, "it's not worth the bother" doesn't quite cut it. Try again.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 17:50:13 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re:Uhhhhh
Laning wrote:
>ObTrav: The adventurers just can't help viewing the contents of the pouch
>they are bearing as confidential couriers for their patron. The pouch
>seems to contain a classified account of an Imperial Naval Intelligence
>operation that stole a Zhodani high tech fighter intact. Unknown to the
>adventurers, this "classified account" is actually an entertainment vid
>intended for distribution on the destination high-pop, high-tech world.
>The desire for secrecy and confidential couriers is out of concern for
>industrial sabotage of the world premiere of what Tantamount Studios' hopes
>will be the biggest hit of the season.
thank you
that might be just the sort of scarlet fish that I need this weekend.
:)
Phil Kitching
- --
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 09:53:31 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
> The cluster would be a secure, Imperial-only second route to "Behind
> the Claw".
Actually, it passes through aslan worlds on the spinward side. More to the
point, who cares? You can get a fleet to the marches without having to
deal with annoying deep-space jumps and drop tanks.
> There are several systems with Terra-like worlds and many more
> marginal and resource systems. None are heavily populated (except
> Esperanza) and none are really defended. Any Imperial military mission
> would have a cakewalk.
What do you gain from doing this? It might be a relatively wealthy area, but
there isn't going to be regular trade, so there's no way for it to benefit
the rest of the imperium (or more accurately, benefit whoever pays for the
mission). If the Imperium doesn't bother to take out the sword worlds, they
certainly wouldn't bother with the Islands.
> The Imperium would have another bit of exploitable territory, another
> route to the Marches, and two more subsectors for the nobility's extra kids
> to find fiefs in. And all of this could be had for cheap, but the fear
> of having to use deep space fuel depots or drop tanks keeps the Imperium
> away? Please.
> The 3I supposedly spent all sorts of blood and treasure to clear the
> Corridor and futzed around for decades near Vland looking for shortcuts
> along the Great Rift's coreward edge (they even knighted the gaggle of
> scouts who led those fruitless missions), but wouldn't have "bothered" to
> annex the Islands to secure another route?
> Sorry, "it's not worth the bother" doesn't quite cut it. Try again.
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 17:57:52 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>From: Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com>
"The Imperium didn't know the Cluster was inhabited until after the
Fourth Frontier War. So, they wouldn't have known there was anything to
annex or conquer."
Sorry can't buy that. Any populated world would make enough "noise" to
be detectable, let only sub-light ramscoop craft. The Imperium goofed
around with a bunch of "short-cut" missions along the Great Rift's coreward
edge that eventually failed. The 3I would have known that the systems were
there and that they were populated.
As for the possibilty they might be empty, there were colonist
travelling 100's of parsecs to systems in Dnenbe or the Marches. "Empty"
Islands systems a bit closer to home should have been coveted, despite a 6
or 8 parsec "moat'
"I could think of two possibilities why they didn't colonize:
1. It's a long way to go--11 parsecs from the nearest Imperial
high-population world. Maybe it's economically unfeasible to colonize
systems that are so far from the nearest major planet?"
The systems in the Marches or Deneb are closer to those same hi-pop
worlds?
"2. The Imperium is incredibly slow to do anything. Maybe one branch of the
Imperial government intended to colonize, but before they got around to it
the Cluster was full of high-population worlds with jump drive (courtesy of
the Scouts and that misjumped cruiser)."
This I can believe. The Islands might have got put on the back burner
and "forgot" about. Perhaps it had something to do with the pro and anti
Solomani Movement factions at court? Wasn't that nonsense coming to a peak
around the time of the Civil War and afterwards? Until Arbellatra's son,
Zhakirov, sent the Space Nazis packing, god bless him.
Larsen E. Whipsnade
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 18:11:07 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
"Actually, it passes through aslan worlds on the spinward side"
Sorry, the other side comes out near Cerebin, a world a few parsecs
from Tobia, the Imperial sector captial of the Trojan Reach. Remember, this
all would have happend well PRIOR to Strephon's "assassination" and the
susequent Aslan ihatei invasion
"If the Imperium doesn't bother to take out the sword worlds, they
certainly wouldn't bother with the Islands."
The bearded chuckleheads squatting on the Sword Worlds aren't defended
in any "real" terms by their own military prowess. It's the threat of their
big brother, the Zhodani Consulate, that kept/keeps them independent and
even that didn't stop the Imperium from carving off half of their systems to
form the Border Worlds after the 5th FW.
Also, don't forget, the Islands would have no navies or large armies
when the Imperium arrived. There would be little fighting, maybe some
terrorist activity. First Contact would have been made by smiling diplomats
from the Imperial Foreign Service, who let the Islanders know they were now
part of the Third Imperium while pointing skyward to the orbitting battle
fleet.
Larsen E. Whipsnade
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 10:12:57 -0800
From: Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
on 2/6/2001 9:57 AM, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Sorry can't buy that. Any populated world would make enough "noise" to
> be detectable, let only sub-light ramscoop craft. The Imperium goofed
> around with a bunch of "short-cut" missions along the Great Rift's coreward
> edge that eventually failed. The 3I would have known that the systems were
> there and that they were populated.
You'd think so, wouldn't you? But, they didn't know the systems were
inhabited until that cruiser returned after the Fourth Frontier War and told
them. It says so in TCS. As for why they didn't go there before, there's no
official explanation. I'm pretty sure the "real" reason is that if they had
there wouldn't be nice isolated cluster full of hostile powers available for
strategic High Guard games.
> "I could think of two possibilities why they didn't colonize:
> 1. It's a long way to go--11 parsecs from the nearest Imperial
> high-population world. Maybe it's economically unfeasible to colonize
> systems that are so far from the nearest major planet?"
>
> The systems in the Marches or Deneb are closer to those same hi-pop
> worlds?
Actually, a better snide response would have been, "Since when does the
Imperium care about economic feasibility of colonies?"
- --
Ken Hagler
| ICQ#: 34591293 | For PGP key send mail with |
| http://www.orange-road.com/ | subject "Send PGP Key". |
| And tho' we are not now that strength which in old days |
| Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are --Tennyson |
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:18:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
> "I could think of two possibilities why they didn't colonize:
> 1. It's a long way to go--11 parsecs from the nearest Imperial
> high-population world. Maybe it's economically unfeasible to colonize
> systems that are so far from the nearest major planet?"
A J8 rift is a major cost; in GT the costs are comparable to crossing an
entire sector at J2-J3, in CT it typically isn't even possible without
drop tanks, whose TL of introduction is unclear. In addition, there's
really nothing along the way to tempt settlers, unlike other directions.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 13:36:22 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Terraforming tips
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/02/05/earth.move/index.html
Share & enjoy.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions should be yours too! - http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"What's a FAQ? Boy, I wish someone would put a list of answers
for common questions such as this..."
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 10:41:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
In mail you write:
> ..for your help. I have cut-and-pasted into a Notepad doc which I will
> share with my colleagues. Quick background (names changed to protect the
> Terminally Stupid):
> Adam wants to install a radar test rig on the ground floor of 'my' building.
> Brian, my local Health & Safety 'Representative' (with no applicable
> background at all) doesn't see anything particularly risky in this.
Then you need to go "over his head" and get *someone* to dig up a copy
of the applicable OSHA (or equivalent) safety rules. Then point out the
applicable rules.
> Charlie, my colleague, asks if anyone knows what a worst-case scenario
> might be.
> I had a *very* rough idea (RF induction heating, most of the energy goes
> straight out but it does still radiate other directions too, should be safe
> if shielded correctly) so thought I would ask people who really *do* know
> what they are talking about..
Well, there are some effects that occur from long term exposure that
folks aren't entirely sure are due to heating. And no, I'm *not*
talking about the BS that folks attribute to cell phones.
Anybody know if there's anybody besides OSHA who might have regulations
covering this? I keep thinking that the same folks that were causing
problems about laser gunsights violating safety rules probably have
authority over this as well.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 14:15:22 -0500
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
At 10:41 AM -0800 2/6/01, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Well, there are some effects that occur from long term exposure that
>folks aren't entirely sure are due to heating. And no, I'm *not*
>talking about the BS that folks attribute to cell phones.
Said BS is taken fairly seriously by researchers at the VA and DOD
hospitals I worked for. It was easy to pick out the people in
oncology; they were the ones who *refused* to use cell phones,
instead of insisting on being provided with several ;)
Kenji
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 19:27:59 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>From: Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com>
"I'm pretty sure the "real" reason is that if they had
>there wouldn't be nice isolated cluster full of hostile powers available
>for strategic High Guard games."
I think that's the "real" reason too! But for the sake of Our Olde
Game's "history" here's another; the Imperium knew the Cluster was populated
by non jump capable worlds and suppressed the info. They wanted them as
some sort of control for a psychohistorical research project. When the
mis-jumped cruiser, "Eldorado", returned from the Islands, the cat was out
of the bag. That's why the Scouuts were sent in to distribute jump drives
to the other prospective Island powers; the Imperium wanted to run a few
more experiments.
After all, wouldn't it be better from the Imperium's viewpoint to have
a Serendip dominated mini-empire that could become a quiet, little,
backwater, client state than eight warring systems in which all sorts of
hell could break loose?
"Actually, a better snide response would have been, "Since when does
the Imperium care about economic feasibility of colonies?"
Okay, you got me! Mea culpa. 8^)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:48:01 +0000
From: Paul Campbell <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
On Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 10:41:36AM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Anybody know if there's anybody besides OSHA who might have regulations
> covering this? I keep thinking that the same folks that were causing
> problems about laser gunsights violating safety rules probably have
> authority over this as well.
Laser gunsights? Violating safety rules?
If someone points a gun at me with a laser gunsight I'm gonna care
more about the bullet than the laser.
- --
Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24
http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net
jupiter: 7:43pm up 28 days, 9:23, 2 users, load average: 0.41, 0.27, 0.31
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 08:39:32 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Traffic control (was: 52 million ton hull!)
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
[...traffic control...drive failure?...]
> Ask real-world airport traffic control. Same thing, but not using the
> third dimension as much.
I suppose it would be at least as rare as aeroplanes losing all engine
power, at that. One major difference is that aeroplanes without
engines can still maneuver somewhat, while spaceships without power
must keep going in a straight line, no matter what might be in the
way.
> Algorithms exist for handling that kind of problem, but they are
> very complicated.
No kidding -- I've read (well, more like skimmed) a few papers on the
subject :)
Certainly lots of little stations would be easier than one big
station, since the spatial traffic density will be much lower. Not
that one single station would work well anyway -- I can't imagine a
planet with non-negligible trade having any less than about 10
groundports, and multiple highports.
There may be some Imperium-wide conventions, e.g. "approach from the
north, leave from the south", to avoid having ships with opposed
velocity vectors from travelling too close together. Possibly even
common designated approach corridors for ships of varying deceleration
capability.
> > I suspect designing safe traffic-flow patterns would be a Hard problem.
>
> It gets even harder with full use of the third dimension...
In some ways it would be easier. With all dimensions treated fairly
equally, there is a lot more room in which to avoid collisions.
Aircraft traffic control has to deal with the fact that it is much
easier to lower altitude than to raise it, and that lateral
maneuvering is much easier (and with a lot more room) than vertical.
I suspect the difficulty with space control will be trying to
coordinate a whole bunch of ships that are all converging toward a
given set of stations at greatly different speeds and rates of
deceleration. One thing is for sure -- you will almost certainly have
to make the last fraction of your approach at a substantially lower
deceleration than your ship is capable of, to allow for problems or
necessary alterations to your approach path.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3603
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3604
Date: | 2/6/01 6:33:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 6 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3604
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [Website Review] Traveller Core Route Maps
Re: Science Fiction
Re: Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
Re: Solar Power in Traveller
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Science Fiction
Re: Solar Power in Traveller
Re: ATTN Downport
Re: ATTN Downport
What can go wrong with your Free Trader...or 'Why is my serial number '3'?
Re: Documentary
Re: Documentary
Re: CT fonts question
Re: What can go wrong with your Free Trader...or 'Why is my serial number '3'?
Re: Solar Power in Traveller
Re: in AOL mail
Re: AHL
Re: Solar Power in Traveller
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
Re: Science Fiction
Re: Downfall o' the Roman Emp (was something else that I don't remember any more)
Re: CT fonts question
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 15:04:36 -0700
From: Cliff Linehan <clinehan@sfamipec.com>
Subject: Re: [Website Review] Traveller Core Route Maps
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 16:59:32 EST From: JimVassila@aol.com
>Cliff, as long as the patch seems to be working okay, go ahead and post
>it on your website so that people can see your handiwork in all its
>glory :-)
>
Thanks Jim. I will be getting the 2.4c patch onto my website as soon as I
can. Hovever, I was sent out of town by my company at the last minute and so
it will not be until after Feb 13th that I will be able to add the patch.
The patch will cover 500 sectors. This is inclusive of the entire list of
sectors that is on my website and about 100 extra sectors.
Clifford Linehan
http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller
Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 16:40:47 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Science Fiction
> I'll just summarize by saying that heat dissipation, and keeping the
> optics clean are going to be hard *regardless* of the tech level.
<snip>
> We do that sometimes.. But far more often people *assume* that problems
> are hard because our technology is inadequate when in fact our
> technology is quite good and the laws of nature make the problem
> *inherently* hard.
>
> Heat dissipation is one of those problems.
<snip>
Hmm. What might be some near-handwavium ways of improving heat
dissipation at higher tech levels?
> Sure, but for an RPG, you *do* need to worry about the *limits* the
> same as an author does. The limits control the way the story can go.
Definitely. I like Traveller for the greater realism it has and
strives for. And the great minds on this list are wonderful for
filling in the gaps in my knowledge of things like physics, that will
help make my TU and games more enjoyable (for me and I hope my
players).
But there are things I'd like to tweak IMTU, to give it what to *me
and my group* is a better feel. Some things to add a bit of "awe and
wonder" to the milieu that seems so impressive in my head. In trying
to entice my group to play Traveller again I've faced comments that
Traveller amounted to "TL7 characters/equipment with starships".[1]
So I think about adding some things like, for example, "blasters" or D.
Drake's "powerguns" - things to entice the firepower- and defense-
minded in our group. I'd want them more powerful than TL7-8 slug
throwers *but still less powerful than the top-o-the-line FGMP-15*.
I don't mean I want lightsabers and the force; making it space fantasy.
If I did, I'd play a different game. I don't want to do away with the
TU but fill it in with new and interesting tech that results from
pondering developments in technology according to the TU tech
timeline.[2]
And reading through Traveller's Digest #12 last night, the article
about replacement body part technology also started me thinking about
what type of medical technology would be common at the TLs the PCs
would normally encounter - to try to give them some chance of keeping
PCs alive when they inevitably get into fights.[3][4]
So to wrap it up, I really like the realism of Traveller, but I'd like
to stretch the limits a bit, as "realistically as possible" if that
makes sense (i.e. one little discovery like an improved heat
dissipation technology could form the basis of many different
improvements in other tech areas).[5]
Rob
Longwinded (cough, "boring", cough) thoughts I removed from above to
spare you. Read if you want. :)
[1] I won't go on about the use of cutlasses - but *I* like them,
especially as I read Patrick O'Brien's Aubrey/Maturin series, and the
Honor Harrington series.
[2] Some of the discussions of slugthrower in recent days (I'm
perpetually catching up on this list) have been enlightening and give
me new regard for the venerable slugthrower, which is great.
[3] Getting into fights may be our own fault as players, but we have
changed since we last played Traveller, so suspect there's hope.
[4] The article posited "growth quickening advances" around TL11 or 13
that reduced the time it took to regrow body parts. That'd be an
interesting discovery to think about what other implications it might
have. What age would be "old age" when you can get new organs in a few
weeks or months? 70? 90? To stick with the feel of the TU I'd think
you might say it's possible to get these organs and stay alive, but not
much longer and not without possible reductions in activity level,
something like that.
[5] I'm still pondering shields after my posting a few months ago;
not ST or SW type, but like above, something inbetween current and
Traveller TL15 - maybe just as shields to protect space travellers
from radiation or something. But I have not collected much data yet
to post. :}
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Aio, quantitas magna frumentorum est.
Yes, that is a very large amount of corn.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 16:10:20 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
<<snips discussion of RF hazards>>
>
> Anybody know if there's anybody besides OSHA who might have regulations
> covering this? I keep thinking that the same folks that were causing
> problems about laser gunsights violating safety rules probably have
> authority over this as well.
And I suspect that the Federal Communications Commission (or its
equivalent in Jeff Rowse's area, if he's not in the US) would have some
concerns over a microwave emitter of that power being operated in an
office building. Heck, they have to approve _computer monitors_ to
ensure that they don't emit too much RF interference....
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:58:05 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Solar Power in Traveller
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Stuff inside the cavity is going to be compressed, which isn't going
> to help its transpar
It generally runs into the cavity walls, helping to enlarge the
cavity. It is, however, optically thin on the length scales we are
discussing here. The vapour is actually more of a problem.
> > Another thing you have neglected is the fact that the back of the
> > cavity has momentum -- it is already moving at about 800 m/s by the
> > time the next pulse hits.
>
> No it won't be. It will slow down quite fast as it hits more water.
It *does* slow down fast: 1200 m/s to 800 m/s in 5 microseconds is a
*lot* of deceleration -- 8 million g's. If you can construct a
plausible model which gives much higher deceleration that this, feel
free to send it to me so I can compare it with my own.
> The 'slug' being described is very low mass, and can be expected to have
> lousy penetration anyway.
Yes, a few centimetres before dissipating. That's why the concept
needs a 200 kHz pulse train, not just a single pulse. You really do
seem to be fixated on the misconception that I'm talking about pulses
far enough apart that the energy from the preceding pulse has almost
completely dissipated. I'm not. The separation between pulses is
comparable to the time it takes to dissipate a fraction of the energy
from the preceding pulse -- *deliberately* so.
If you think the timescale for dissipation of kinetic energy in the
rear cavity wall is substantially shorter than 5 microseconds, feel
free to post some numbers supporting it. Then re-do the model for a
pulse train based on your new timescale.
There is no point in arbitrarily claiming that the timescale is
shorter, and then trying to discredit the concept by ignoring the fact
that the timing between pulses is deliberately chosen to match the
kinetic energy dissipation timescale.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 15:05:46 -0800
From: Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
on 2/6/2001 11:27 AM, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> That's why the Scouuts were sent in to distribute jump drives
> to the other prospective Island powers; the Imperium wanted to run a few
> more experiments.
> After all, wouldn't it be better from the Imperium's viewpoint to have
> a Serendip dominated mini-empire that could become a quiet, little,
> backwater, client state than eight warring systems in which all sorts of
> hell could break loose?
That's a good theory, and even TCS points out that the Scouts were behaving
strangely.
Another possibility:
The Scouts saw that the Belters couldn't conquer and hold the entire Cluster
by themselves. Sooner or later the other high-tech, high-population worlds
would figure out the jump drive themselves, resulting in the warring systems
situation anyway. By giving out the jump drive technology, the Scouts build
goodwill towards the Imperium from the people who otherwise might have
blamed them for the Belters' rampage.
- --
Ken Hagler
| ICQ#: 34591293 | For PGP key send mail with |
| http://www.orange-road.com/ | subject "Send PGP Key". |
| And tho' we are not now that strength which in old days |
| Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are --Tennyson |
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 15:27:10 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: Science Fiction
Ray Rangel wrote:
> In 1984 Intel proclaimed that the 80186 was the fastest processor that
> physics would allow and that we had hit the "hardware" barrier.
Do you have a citation for this claim? I'd be pretty certain that if this
happened, it was a marketing maneuver and not anyone's actual belief.
- -Russell B
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 15:35:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Solar Power in Traveller
Ok, I went about this whole argument from a different perspective. See what
you think of my assumptions.
1: we will assume a 'pulse train' is equivalent to a bullet passing through
the target. Therefore, it requires similar energy to penetrate. We will, for
now, assume that the effective 'bullet' is the same size as the beam.
2: this bullet is being propelled by the expansion of water vapor at 1,800
meters per second; the 'bullet' itself is going at 1,000 meters per second.
Since the propellant is going faster than the bullet, it carries off more
energy than the bullet by a ratio of 1.8:1. Thus, it takes 2.8x more energy.
3: to boil water in this way, you also have to break chemical bonds of the
water. This roughly doubles the energy requirements, to x5.6
4: as we have an expanding gas which is not being constricted by any muzzle,
much of the force is directed other than forwards and backwards; in particular,
roughly 1/3 of the force goes forward/back (the rest isn't entirely wasted,
it makes the hole larger, which is good, and tends to heat/cauterize it, which
isn't really useful). Our energy requirement is now x16.8
5: now, if we're using a 2mm beam, it has only 1/8 the surface area of a .223
6: therefore, to accomplish penetration equivalent to the .223, we need twice
the energy.
That's actually pretty good, better than I'd expected. As far as sideways
velocity, this approximation applies force in all directions, so it shouldn't
matter as long as the beam doesn't brush the sides of the hole.
This approximation ignores any possible material in the beam path, which there
would be some. This approximation also ignores the non-water portion of the
body, which could help or hinder, but is probably a hindrance for the simple
reason that it isn't evenly distributed, and will thus tend to produce
irregularities in the beam and disrupt the compression wave in the tissue.
It also ignores some of the 'rocket' being not vaporized, which while true is
probably not relevant, since the portion going directly back (which is
mostly what matters for thrust) is going to be completely vaporized.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 15:49:44 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN Downport
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> > Hey, I'm just small time, running this all off the Sparc20 on my desk
over
> a
> > 768K DSL line.
>
> Oh, that sounds like it would be lots of fun to test with SiteLoad. Ever
had
> a stress test done on your sites? :-)
>
Not yet. I generally don't see much of a load. I've got 2 processors and
tons O RAM.
BTW, I put a landgrab image with a link back to downport on the
spinwardmarches.com site. Hope tha's ok.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 15:54:36 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN Downport
Forgot to mention,
I installed webalizer on the travellercentral site.
http://www.travelercentral.com/temp/usage
Look like I get about 25% of your activity.
(231,000 hits vs. 71,000).
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 17:28:12 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: What can go wrong with your Free Trader...or 'Why is my serial number '3'?
Attention GM's, while this url (
http://people.ne.mediaone.net/constantin/Prout/index.html ) specifically
covers the trials and tribulations of a boat owner and his mis-designed
yacht, there's lots of gaming fodder to inflict on your players.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 16:30:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Documentary
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
I had written:
>>>> Clint Eastwood did an excellent
>>>> documentary (entitled "Firefox") on how the US stole the
>>>>technology from the Soviets.
You replied:
>>>Tongue firmly in cheek here, I hope?
I responded:
>>I'm the one who wrote it. What do you think?
You replied:
>I'm afraid I'm a little gunshy on stuff like this due to my
>membership on the GAMA committee in charge of defending games against
>loonie attacks in the media. Remember that so-called list of over 100
>deaths that were linked to roleplaying games? One of those was the case
[deleted]
I think you can relax a little when you read this list, Loren. If I wrote
it, you can be sure that I know whether it's real or not. The same is
true of every other regular poster (except maybe Kenji Schwartz).
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 16:37:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Bernie McGeehan <einreb62@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Documentary
- --- GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
"I heard that those games have
> caused hundreds of
> deaths . . . " etc.
>
> LKW
Hundreds of deaths? Well, heck, I imagine between us
all we've knocked out something like a few billion
deaths...between PCs & NPCs...
=====
"I don't know much about what I like, but I do know Art." me @ the Rijksmuseum, Amsterdam (Terra/Sol 3)http://prattfall.tripod.com/index.html
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 20:05:04 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: CT fonts question
On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 22:32:40 -0500 (EST), knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>Does anyone know what fonts were used on the CT box (both the 'Mayday'
>message & the actual Traveller logo itself)?
The original was called Optima; there are several clones of it with names
like Opta and Optim (and probably some others). A good 'official' clone of
it is Zapf Humanist BT
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 19:25:59 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: What can go wrong with your Free Trader...or 'Why is my serial number '3'?
Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
> Attention GM's, while this url (
> http://people.ne.mediaone.net/constantin/Prout/index.html ) specifically
> covers the trials and tribulations of a boat owner and his mis-designed
> yacht, there's lots of gaming fodder to inflict on your players.
Of course, PCs can avoid such difficulties (which make General
Shipyards' products seem reliable) by purchasing ships from yards that
take pride in their work, such as AuricTech Shipyards.... ;-)
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:39:22 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Solar Power in Traveller
Anthony Jackson wrote:
> Ok, I went about this whole argument from a different perspective.
> See what you think of my assumptions.
Not bad, I've got a few nitpicks but certainly within the right order
of magnitude.
> 6: therefore, to accomplish penetration equivalent to the .223, we
> need twice the energy.
Somewhere between the same energy and twice as much, yes, depending on
small factors in the model of a few tens of percent each.
> That's actually pretty good, better than I'd expected. As far as
> sideways velocity, this approximation applies force in all
> directions, so it shouldn't matter as long as the beam doesn't brush
> the sides of the hole.
Past about 20-30 cm, the hole loses symmetry though, so any
penetration beyond that becomes successively less likely. It's a
curious concidence that it happens to be about the desired penetration
depth to reliably cause damage to vital organs in the torso of a
human.
You can increase penetration by increasing beam diameter (and hence
energy required, going up with the square) and/or pulse energy and
spacing (energy required going up exponentially, but initially
linear).
I've now run some models with some materials having properties that
might be expected of "futuristic" vehicle armour. Pulse trains do
little, in this case. A train of pulses is better than a single
pulse, but not a *lot* better as it seems to be for relatively soft
targets with high heats of vaporisation like humans.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:39:30 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: in AOL mail
> If you have installed AOL's version 6.0 software, and have trouble
> with being unable to turn off HTML in your email, there is a solution.
>
> For AOL email using Windows:
>
> (1) Change your font to Arial 10 if not already on Arial 10 (Arial 10
> is the AOL default).
>
> (2) Write your message.
>
> (3) Highlight the entire message (including signature) using the
> mouse (or do ctrl-A to do the same thing).
>
> (4) Right click anywhere within the message itself. A 'popup menu'
> appears. Move the cursor to "text", and another menu will appear.
> Move the cursor to "normal" and click on it.
>
>
> My thanks to Ron Parker who runs the Tabletweaving List for pulling
> this together.
And you have to do this for each message? No way to set it as a default? This
is not an optimum solution.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:42:08 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: AHL
> Loren, is there any chance that this could be done?
I'm looking at the question. How much are you willing to pay?
> ps, My FLGS recently delivered into my hand a collection of Twilight 2000
> materials with a very familiar sounding name as the author for a great many
> of them. I have thourghly enjoying them. Have you considered a TW2000
> Gurps world book?
Nope. I'm busy enough as it is.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:47:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Solar Power in Traveller
Timothy Little writes:
> I've now run some models with some materials having properties that
> might be expected of "futuristic" vehicle armour. Pulse trains do
> little, in this case. A train of pulses is better than a single
> pulse, but not a *lot* better as it seems to be for relatively soft
> targets with high heats of vaporisation like humans.
So, what would be optimal armor, particularly for situations where impact
weapons might be rare (i.e. ship combat)? I'd guess on something that's
mostly carbon (for its nice 60 kj/gram heat of vaporization, plus diamond
dust has enough transparency and refractivity to refract a lot of the light
sideways) but not clear what you'd mix it with to contain shock waves, pure
diamond would be very brittle.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:51:19 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
> Bugger! Are you still doing that, Loren? The committe work, I mean.
The Committee stil exists, and the work continues, but I haven't taken an
active part in years.
> Are
> there still a lot of attacks (above and beyond Frank Chick pamphlets, that
> is) becasue, to be honest, maybe I've been blissfully ignorant and
unseeing
> of any, but I haven't run accross any. (Watch, with my luck, someone will
> whip out yesterday's Newsweek proclaiming Traveller the newest and most
> powerful incarnation of Der Teufel.)
Try:
http://www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp
And, for good measure, try:
http://www.chick.com/bc/2000/dinosaurs.asp
You'll either laugh or cry.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:48:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
In mail you write:
> On Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 10:41:36AM -0800, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Anybody know if there's anybody besides OSHA who might have regulations
>> covering this? I keep thinking that the same folks that were causing
>> problems about laser gunsights violating safety rules probably have
>> authority over this as well.
>
> Laser gunsights? Violating safety rules?
>
> If someone points a gun at me with a laser gunsight I'm gonna care
> more about the bullet than the laser.
Which is essentially the argument that got them exempted from the usual
power restrictions.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:49:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction
In mail you write:
>
>> I'll just summarize by saying that heat dissipation, and keeping the
>> optics clean are going to be hard *regardless* of the tech level.
> <snip>
>> We do that sometimes.. But far more often people *assume* that problems
>> are hard because our technology is inadequate when in fact our
>> technology is quite good and the laws of nature make the problem
>> *inherently* hard.
>>
>> Heat dissipation is one of those problems.
> <snip>
>
> Hmm. What might be some near-handwavium ways of improving heat
> dissipation at higher tech levels?
You need a type of handwavium that is an electrical insulator, and a
thermal "superconductor". Being a directional conductor (ie heat
conducts rapdily north-south, but slowly east-west) would be useful as
well.
And you want it dumping heat into eaier some "fractal" convection
cooling fins with *forced* air draft, or you need one hell of a heat
sink of some sort.
IR signature is going to be a real problem.
> But there are things I'd like to tweak IMTU, to give it what to *me
> and my group* is a better feel. Some things to add a bit of "awe and
> wonder" to the milieu that seems so impressive in my head. In trying
> to entice my group to play Traveller again I've faced comments that
> Traveller amounted to "TL7 characters/equipment with starships".[1]
Alas, that *is* what we've got for rules. And for most of the stories
they were based on.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 21:02:29 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Downfall o' the Roman Emp (was something else that I don't remember any more)
At 12:12 AM 2/6/01 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > That would be climatic changes due to a very large Volcano
> > (don't remember which at the time). Ruined crops and agricultural
> > productivity for two years. And it happened at the worst possible
> > time - with the Huns on the door.
> >
> > - -bloo
>
>I hadn't come across this one before.
From a discussion on an archaeology list a couple months ago:
***
"It was a catastrophic event, which can be proven in trees in the
whole world ", explains to Baillie, which gathered an extensive tree
ring file. Among them are also trees, which were conserved in sumps
and whose tree rings go some thousand years into the past. Tree rings
approximately from the year 540 A.D. document a strongly slowed down
growth of the trees. A similar tree ring sample gives only 1816, to
the "year without summers", caused by an outbreak of the Indonesian
volcano Tambora.
***
I saw a rerun of this show as well. To add to Vel's list, there are also
records
of eclipses in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle around this time:
A.D. 538. This year the sun was eclipsed, fourteen days before
the calends of March, from before morning until nine.
A.D. 540. This year the sun was eclipsed on the twelfth day
before the calends of July; and the stars showed themselves full
nigh half an hour over nine.
***
About a year old there was a television broadcast making light of a new
theory concerning the onset of the "dark ages" due to a massive worldwide
weather change due to a volcanic super eruption where so much debris was
thrown into the upper stratosphere thus changing the weather worldwide akin
to a "nuclear winter."
Here's what I recall...
1. Massive explosion in East Indies about the year 535-540.
2. Chinese accounts of dark sky and famine due a lack of growing season
3. Massive shifts of population groups searching for a better place to grow
crops and survive.
4. Ice samples taken from the polar ice in Greenland finding an ash layer
about the time of the event in the sixth century.
5. Accounts of strange weather from writings from Antioch Syria
6. Account of strange events in Rome Italy
***
James
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 21:29:48 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: CT fonts question
>The original was called Optima; there are several clones of it with names
>like Opta and Optim (and probably some others). A good 'official' clone of
>it is Zapf Humanist BT
I'm not sure it even counts as a clone. Hermann Zapf designed Optima and, so
far as I know, Zapf Humanist BT is just the version of it he licensed to
Bitstream. Font companies have to play silly games with font names like this
all the time, because of Linotype AG's anal trademark restrictions on them.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3604
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3605
Date: | 2/7/01 2:28:50 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 7 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3605
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: [Website Review] Starbase Progress
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: Anti-RPG
RE: Anti-RPG
Back after an Absence
LASER...err...Laser heat dissipation
Re: in AOL mail
Re: Traffic control (was: 52 million ton hull!)
Re: in AOL mail
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
Science Fiction
Re: Traffic control (was: 52 million ton hull!)
Re: Anti-RPG
RE: Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:02:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Don Roberts <tne1201@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
- --- GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > Bugger! Are you still doing that, Loren? The
> committe work, I mean.
>
> The Committee stil exists, and the work continues,
> but I haven't taken an
> active part in years.
>
> > Are
> > there still a lot of attacks (above and beyond
> Frank Chick pamphlets, that
> > is) becasue, to be honest, maybe I've been
> blissfully ignorant and
> unseeing
> > of any, but I haven't run accross any. (Watch,
> with my luck, someone will
> > whip out yesterday's Newsweek proclaiming
> Traveller the newest and most
> > powerful incarnation of Der Teufel.)
>
> Try:
> http://www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp
>
> And, for good measure, try:
> http://www.chick.com/bc/2000/dinosaurs.asp
>
> You'll either laugh or cry.
>
> LKW
I have to take a strong stand here! This nitwit and
others like him spread a message of hate and fear of
anything they don't believe. Who is this Frank Chick
fellow anyway? Never heard of him. But to the point.
The last time I checked I lived in The UNITED STATES
OF AMERICA. Where you had the freedom to believe
anything that you want to. People like Mr. Chick and
his moral minority spend all their time running around
trying to stop people from doing things that make them
happy because they are basically "messed up freaks"
with a serious control complex. If they believe that
they have all the right ideas on the way life should
be lived for other people, then why don't they go
start a country of their own and quit bothering the
rest of us with this nonsense. I have played D&D for
years. I have never had or will have a desire to harm
anyone in real life other than the defensen of my
person or family. I am so sick of this claptrap that
gamers are outcasts and losers. I have went through
my entire life getting along with people and making
friends. Most of the gamers I have met are
intelligent people with a good sense of ethics. I
think this is the key word here anyway. These people
of "higher calling" are scared to death of anything or
anyone who resembles learning or education. Because
of small minded people like christians, many different
groups have been persecuted over the last 2000 years.
They have made us ashamed to be another
sex,race,affiliation,religion,sexual preference,or
career. It smacks of intolerance which is brought on
by ignorence. The only way that we can get to the
future successfully is by leaving off with this
nonsense and not looking back at how narrow our views
have been, but the possibilities we can accomplish. I
call you out Mr. Chick! I am not afraid of you!! I
have reason and education as my ally!!! And I don't
need your "brainwashing" to do anything for me!! So
scuttle under the rock from whence you came, and leave
us alone!!!!
I am going to get off of my soapbox now
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 04:03:26 +0100
From: "Patrik Holmström" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Website Review] Starbase Progress
Thanks for the review Peter. I'm sorry for not replying any sooner but I'm
taking 4 courses this semester and they all involve programming
exercises/projects so time has been in short supply. Especially this week
has been insane. I "found" some free time between midnight and the first
lecture so I have been able to get rid of my TML backlog.
>Peter Trevor wrote:
>Finally, there is a "What's New" page. From this you can see
>that updates appear fairly frequently.
I try to update once a month. We'll see if I can keep that up with my
current workload but something new should appear every month.
>One minor problem here, however, is that some of the links are broken.
That has now been fixed. I blame the gremlins for all broken links and
typos.
>In summary: a well put together site, but evidentially still a
>work in progress.
>
>Improvements: apart from fix the broken links (obviously) and
>increase the content as shown to be planned (perhaps focusing
>more on the underweight vehicles and guns sections), there are
>two areas of potential improvement. First, while not necessary,
>some illustrations and/or deckplans would be nice. Second, some
>background on Dimashq would be great ... who are they, how big
>are they, how long have they been around, that sort of thing.
>Also, why is this site called "Starbase Progress" and not
>"Dimashq Corporation"?
I'm using the site as an excuse for turning all my finished material into a
electronic format. I probably have several hundred items of various kind
(and quality) on hard drives and paper. The reason why some sections are
almost empty is that I'm not considering the material finished (deckplans
and background) or unsatisfied with the design rules (vehicles). I hope to
get some of the deckplans and basic background done during the summer.
Patrik Holmström <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
http://www.docs.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/
Mar's Law:
Everything is linear if plotted loglog with a fat magic marker.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:10:47 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
I suggest you use the EMail Us option on Mr Chick's page and express
your views to him..... Be polite... the man is delusional and may easily
take offense to anything you say.
Good Luck!
- -----Original Message-----
From: Don Roberts [mailto:tne1201@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 2:03 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
- --- GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > Bugger! Are you still doing that, Loren? The
> committe work, I mean.
>
> The Committee stil exists, and the work continues,
> but I haven't taken an
> active part in years.
>
> > Are
> > there still a lot of attacks (above and beyond
> Frank Chick pamphlets, that
> > is) becasue, to be honest, maybe I've been
> blissfully ignorant and
> unseeing
> > of any, but I haven't run accross any. (Watch,
> with my luck, someone will
> > whip out yesterday's Newsweek proclaiming
> Traveller the newest and most
> > powerful incarnation of Der Teufel.)
>
> Try:
> http://www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp
>
> And, for good measure, try:
> http://www.chick.com/bc/2000/dinosaurs.asp
>
> You'll either laugh or cry.
>
> LKW
I have to take a strong stand here! This nitwit and
others like him spread a message of hate and fear of
anything they don't believe. Who is this Frank Chick
fellow anyway? Never heard of him. But to the point.
The last time I checked I lived in The UNITED STATES
OF AMERICA. Where you had the freedom to believe
anything that you want to. People like Mr. Chick and
his moral minority spend all their time running around
trying to stop people from doing things that make them
happy because they are basically "messed up freaks"
with a serious control complex. If they believe that
they have all the right ideas on the way life should
be lived for other people, then why don't they go
start a country of their own and quit bothering the
rest of us with this nonsense. I have played D&D for
years. I have never had or will have a desire to harm
anyone in real life other than the defensen of my
person or family. I am so sick of this claptrap that
gamers are outcasts and losers. I have went through
my entire life getting along with people and making
friends. Most of the gamers I have met are
intelligent people with a good sense of ethics. I
think this is the key word here anyway. These people
of "higher calling" are scared to death of anything or
anyone who resembles learning or education. Because
of small minded people like christians, many different
groups have been persecuted over the last 2000 years.
They have made us ashamed to be another
sex,race,affiliation,religion,sexual preference,or
career. It smacks of intolerance which is brought on
by ignorence. The only way that we can get to the
future successfully is by leaving off with this
nonsense and not looking back at how narrow our views
have been, but the possibilities we can accomplish. I
call you out Mr. Chick! I am not afraid of you!! I
have reason and education as my ally!!! And I don't
need your "brainwashing" to do anything for me!! So
scuttle under the rock from whence you came, and leave
us alone!!!!
I am going to get off of my soapbox now
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 19:25:21 -0800 (PST)
From: healyzh@aracnet.com
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
> Try:
> http://www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp
>
> And, for good measure, try:
> http://www.chick.com/bc/2000/dinosaurs.asp
>
> You'll either laugh or cry.
>
> LKW
>
Loren,
Thank you for posting the links. What a wonderful web-site! I'd encourage
everyone to approach the web-site with an open mind instead of some
knee-jerk reaction! Sure the first activelly attacks our hobby, but both
make very valid points.
Zane
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:35:35 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
> Try:
> http://www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp
>
> And, for good measure, try:
> http://www.chick.com/bc/2000/dinosaurs.asp
>
> You'll either laugh or cry.
>
> LKW
>
Laughter... lots of laughter.... I've read the DMG and the PHB, where
are these rituals he speaks about? Unless these rituals involve the
consumption of potato chips and coke accompanied with general merriment
and sillines while rolling dice, then I am probably in trouble.
This guy must have fits over 'Buffy the Vampire Slayer!'.
OBTRAV:
Try to imagine a world run by people like this. It would have to be
interdicted, so that outsiders could not contaminate other peoples
views. Probably a little like modern day Afganistan.
The players are hired by a patron to try and sell AD&D on this world.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 22:57:43 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Back after an Absence
Hello Folks,
Been away for a while, and am coming back for a visit or ten. Are there
any individuals here who discuss the Traveller Universe from a GURPS
perspective?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 22:48:10 -0500
From: "Ray Rangel" <ray.rangel@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: LASER...err...Laser heat dissipation
And this is a good example of how tunnel vision prevents problems from being
solved...
There has been a refrain that one can't "pot" a laser (or LASER) because the
heat must be dissipated.
The unspoken assumption is that the heat must be _dissipated_. I would offer
that the heat may be absorbed by material not unlike what is used on the
present day space shuttle heat shield. Material that can absorb heat rapidly
and dissipate it very slowly. If the entire LASER is potted in material
having this property, then heat would not be a factor.
The shuttle engineers realized that an ablative head shield (getting rid of
the heat quickly) wouldn't work, so they rethought the problem and ended up
storing the heat instead.
I would submit that it is human nature to frame one's concept of the
universe with one's own experience. It is quite natural to assume that
something can't be done because it's never been done before. Many
discoveries and inventions occur because the person(s) allowed themselves to
step over the bounds of their own experience and examine a problem from a
hitherto unseen angle.
Even on this list we have seen people taking tentative steps over the
bounds. They briefly explored ways in which optical surfaces could be
protected.
The assumption in these posts has been that a laser must be high powered to
do damage. However, looking at the use of a laser from a different
perspective reveals that the damage is caused by the heat generated at the
target. It is entirely possible to hit the target with many nano bursts of
low energy to get the same effect. Thus, a laser that uses a msec burst
composed of pulses that are in the sub usec range would use half the power
and get substantially the same effect (the pulses are so short that the
subject doesn't cool between them).
I am reminded of a film I saw when I was in the Air Force. It was a segment
demonstrating the minigun. The minigun used was .22 caliber, I don't
remember hw many barrels it had. But the point is that it fired so fast that
a block of concrete about 2'x2' was reduced to dust in seconds. There's a
lesson in there somewhere....
The possibilities are endless...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 22:13:27 -0600
From: Charles McKnight <cmcknight01@home.com>
Subject: Re: in AOL mail
At 08:39 PM 2/6/01 -0500, you wrote:
> > If you have installed AOL's version 6.0 software, and have trouble
> > with being unable to turn off HTML in your email, there is a solution.
> >
> > For AOL email using Windows:
> >
> > (1) Change your font to Arial 10 if not already on Arial 10 (Arial 10
> > is the AOL default).
> >
> > (2) Write your message.
> >
> > (3) Highlight the entire message (including signature) using the
> > mouse (or do ctrl-A to do the same thing).
> >
> > (4) Right click anywhere within the message itself. A 'popup menu'
> > appears. Move the cursor to "text", and another menu will appear.
> > Move the cursor to "normal" and click on it.
> >
> >
> > My thanks to Ron Parker who runs the Tabletweaving List for pulling
> > this together.
>
>And you have to do this for each message? No way to set it as a default? This
>is not an optimum solution.
>
>LKW
Neither is AOL. fnord
Chuck
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 17:57:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traffic control (was: 52 million ton hull!)
In mail you write:
> Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
> [...traffic control...drive failure?...]
>> Ask real-world airport traffic control. Same thing, but not using the
>> third dimension as much.
>
> I suppose it would be at least as rare as aeroplanes losing all engine
> power, at that. One major difference is that aeroplanes without
> engines can still maneuver somewhat, while spaceships without power
> must keep going in a straight line, no matter what might be in the
> way.
Actually, a straight line is the *last* thing they'll be following.
Gravity is a significant concern. When they lose power, they'll be
following *some* sort of orbit, ranging from circular, to elliptical,
to parabolic to hyperbolic. And which may or may not intersect the
planet or some other body.
> There may be some Imperium-wide conventions, e.g. "approach from the
> north, leave from the south", to avoid having ships with opposed
> velocity vectors from travelling too close together. Possibly even
> common designated approach corridors for ships of varying deceleration
> capability.
It's rather more complex than that, even with the ability to maintai
multi-g accelerations for hours or days.
>> > I suspect designing safe traffic-flow patterns would be a Hard problem.
>>
>> It gets even harder with full use of the third dimension...
>
> In some ways it would be easier. With all dimensions treated fairly
> equally, there is a lot more room in which to avoid collisions.
> Aircraft traffic control has to deal with the fact that it is much
> easier to lower altitude than to raise it, and that lateral
> maneuvering is much easier (and with a lot more room) than vertical.
Orbital mechanics makes manuevering near a planet "interesting". The
direction you apply thrust in isn't the direction you intend to go. The
relationship is non-intuitive.
> I suspect the difficulty with space control will be trying to
> coordinate a whole bunch of ships that are all converging toward a
> given set of stations at greatly different speeds and rates of
> deceleration. One thing is for sure -- you will almost certainly have
> to make the last fraction of your approach at a substantially lower
> deceleration than your ship is capable of, to allow for problems or
> necessary alterations to your approach path.
It's worse than that, as you will want trajectories such that if the
drive fails at any given moment, the resulting orbit will not be
dangerous to the ship or to anything else in the vicinity for at least
many hours (to give time to get a big enough tug out to them).
G. Harry Stine, writing as "Lee Correy" dealt with some of the "fun"
for space traffic control in his novel "Manna" (I think that was the
title). If you can find a copy, read it.
Stine was both a pilot *and* familar with orbital mechanics and the
like. So his ideas are about the most realistic we'll see before we
really *do* have to set up such a system.
There are two lovely scenes dealing with traffic control. The first has
a ship making a flight from ground to L5 at a point when a lot of
people are unhappy with the country it lifts from and *especially*
unhappy with some of the folks on the ship. Enough so that they apply
pressure to make things difficult.
After the second time STC hands them a flight plan that would run them
thru the "engagement zone" of a (supposedly secret) military satellite,
the pilot declares that he's invoking rule<something> and operating on
his own responsibility to detect and avoid traffic.
He does some hairy flying while his co-pilot is busily working the
computer for all he's worth to make sure that thy won't even *appear*
to be getting too close to things that might make people nervous.
Later, they are using transatmospheric fighters in an attempt to put
down the "rebels" in a "civil war". They basicly inform STC that per
(some treaty) they are declaring the space above their country off
limits as part of a police action, and asking them to warn off anybody
who gets too close.
Picture a major spaceport being attacked from orbit by "fighters" that
are coming in at mach 25!
Also picture the fun of trying to coordinate the passes by the space
fighters with the *subsonic* troop transports...
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:12:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: in AOL mail
In mail you write:
>> If you have installed AOL's version 6.0 software, and have trouble
>> with being unable to turn off HTML in your email, there is a solution.
>>
>> For AOL email using Windows:
>>
>> (1) Change your font to Arial 10 if not already on Arial 10 (Arial 10
>> is the AOL default).
>>
>> (2) Write your message.
>>
>> (3) Highlight the entire message (including signature) using the
>> mouse (or do ctrl-A to do the same thing).
>>
>> (4) Right click anywhere within the message itself. A 'popup menu'
>> appears. Move the cursor to "text", and another menu will appear.
>> Move the cursor to "normal" and click on it.
>>
>>
>> My thanks to Ron Parker who runs the Tabletweaving List for pulling
>> this together.
>
> And you have to do this for each message? No way to set it as a default?
> This is not an optimum solution.
What do you expect from AOL?
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:42:20 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
On 6 Feb 2001, at 17:57, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> >From: Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com>
> "The Imperium didn't know the Cluster was inhabited until after the
> Fourth Frontier War. So, they wouldn't have known there was anything to annex
> or conquer."
> Sorry can't buy that. Any populated world would make enough "noise" to
> be detectable, let only sub-light ramscoop craft. The Imperium goofed around
> with a bunch of "short-cut" missions along the Great Rift's coreward edge that
> eventually failed. The 3I would have known that the systems were there and
> that they were populated.
Why? I assume you are referring to EM "noise" (I just love that myth). I did
a lot of research on this for my IW work. It turns out that the chance of
accidentally stumbling across a technological civilisation's EM signiture is
so small as to be almost nil. Yes a reasonable tech world will pump out an
incredible amount of EM radiation. But virtually all of it is low power short
range stuff that probably wouldn't carry any great distance (definitly not
over interstellar distances). The few sources that might carry across
interstellar space (extremely high powered military radars and the like) are
essentially mindless signals and could easily be mistaken for natural
phenomn. And regardless of the power problem, its all confined to a very
narrow part of the spectrum that will easily be drowned out by any other
technological civilisation.
Bottom line is: unless you are specifically looking and willing to commit a
good length of time (years), you won't find a technological world.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 06:31:24 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
"Why? I assume you are referring to EM "noise" (I just love that myth).
I did a lot of research on this for my IW work. It turns out that the chance
of accidentally stumbling across a technological civilisation's EM signiture
is so small as to be almost nil."
Well, you learn something new every day! Thanks!
The fact the the 3I wouldn't be able to detect the colonies on the
Island worlds makes both subsectors' non-conquest even more odd.
Most of the replies have to my question argued that the Imperium
wouldn't wanted to bear the cost of the military campaign necessary to
conquer and hold the Islands. If the 3I had simply thought the subsectors'
worlds were empty, they would have planned on sending colonists instead of
cruisers. The cost of a scouting and colony mission would have been much
less and thus have a better chance of being launched. So, why wasn't it?
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:29:02 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
On Tue, 6 Feb 2001, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Well, there are some effects that occur from long term exposure that
> folks aren't entirely sure are due to heating. And no, I'm *not*
> talking about the BS that folks attribute to cell phones.
There was a Norwegian research project about cell phones a few (~8) years
ago. The results were reported in Helsingin Sanomat (the largest newspaper
in Finland). The article began : "A Norwegian research group has
discovered that cell phones emit electromagnetic radiation"...
I believe that this outstanding news is probably caused by the high
scientific education of journalists...
(This article was displayed in my electromagnetics book...)
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 03:38:30 -0500
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: Science Fiction
Fellow Travellers,
<heretic mode>
I started playing Traveller for two reasons: First, my fundamentalist
parents wouldn't let me play D&D, but they would let me role-play if it
didn't have anything to do with magic, demons and such, and second, I wanted
to create my own fictional universe for my friends and I. I preferred
Traveller without the Imperium and all of the other "background" material; I
still do, in fact. The great thing about Traveller is that you have a very
adaptable set of rules that can be used in virtually any setting. My friends
and I have explored the gritty reality of William Gibson, we've played in
any number of Heinlein's and Asimov's future worlds, and yes, we've
adventured in the universe that Marc gave us, too. There is a LOT of stuff
in science fiction literature that would be dismissed as "non-canonical" or
"not good science" by some of us but it can still make an enjoyable
adventure! I think that the rules were made to be a simple guide to help you
make the game fit your conception of the universe. The concept of
"canonical" and "non-canonical" seems kind of stupid and arbitrary in the
face of the fact that it is after all, just a game, albeit the best RPG
ever. I guess that I view Traveller as nothing more than a framework, and
it's what my fellow players and I put into it that makes it fun.
</heretic mode>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:27:45 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Traffic control (was: 52 million ton hull!)
Leonard Erickson wrote:
[Tim Little wrote:]
> > engines can still maneuver somewhat, while spaceships without power
> > must keep going in a straight line, no matter what might be in the
> > way.
> Actually, a straight line is the *last* thing they'll be following.
I originally typed "geodesic", but figured most people wouldn't
understand it and it wasn't essential to the description, so I
replaced it with the closest analog in common speech. Clearly I
should have stuck with the original (highly pedantic) phrasing.
> Orbital mechanics makes manuevering near a planet "interesting". The
> direction you apply thrust in isn't the direction you intend to
> go. The relationship is non-intuitive.
For ships with the delta-V and thrust capability of Traveller ships,
orbital mechanics is far less important than it is with our primitive
technology. It must still be taken into account as a correction, but
nearly every Traveller ship for which I've seen specifications has the
ability to overcome any habitable planet's gravity by "brute force"
with no non-intuitive thrust directions necessary.
> It's worse than that, as you will want trajectories such that if the
> drive fails at any given moment, the resulting orbit will not be
> dangerous to the ship or to anything else in the vicinity for at least
> many hours (to give time to get a big enough tug out to them).
Yes, that's what makes it an interesting problem.
> G. Harry Stine, writing as "Lee Correy" dealt with some of the "fun"
> for space traffic control in his novel "Manna" (I think that was the
> title). If you can find a copy, read it.
>
> Stine was both a pilot *and* familar with orbital mechanics and the
> like. So his ideas are about the most realistic we'll see before we
> really *do* have to set up such a system.
Sounds like fun :) I'll see if I can find a copy.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:05:44 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
On 6 Feb 2001, at 19:02, Don Roberts wrote:
> anyone who resembles learning or education. Because
> of small minded people like christians, many different
> groups have been persecuted over the last 2000 years.
Please do not lump all Christians in with Mr Chick and his ilk. His brand of
bigoted intolerance has very little to do with mainstream Christianity and is
actively detested and opposed by many. I really hate it when the high
profile small mindedness of a bunch of zelots blind people to the much
larger reality. The pity of it is that people like Mr Chick go out of their way
to get publicity, while mainstream Christianity tends to remain silent as to
their works. (and yes I know that historical mainstream Christianity has
more than a little blood on its hands).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:39:54 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
John Groth wrote :
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> <<snips discussion of RF hazards>>
> > Anybody know if there's anybody besides OSHA who might have regulations
> > covering this? I keep thinking that the same folks that were causing
> > problems about laser gunsights violating safety rules probably have
> > authority over this as well.
>
> And I suspect that the Federal Communications Commission (or its
> equivalent in Jeff Rowse's area, if he's not in the US) would have some
> concerns over a microwave emitter of that power being operated in an
> office building. Heck, they have to approve _computer monitors_ to
> ensure that they don't emit too much RF interference....
Not knowing the details I have to say that while a radar can be dangerous,
what they're trying to do inn this case may be perfectly safe and legal.
It is common practice to link two line-of-site buildings with directional
radar-frequency microwave transmitters for networking purposes. The
difference betwen a radar and a microwave link is the power of the
transmission, and also the beam spread.
It is common practice to install radar-frequency base stations for PCS and
other cell-based comms systems inside buildings or for RF networking as
well.
Kenji (was it?) needs to ensure that they were actually talking about
installing a _radar_ and not just a "radar-frequency" microwave transmitter,
before he starts getting worried.
And even if it is a radar, what type of radar is it ?
If it's an X or K-Band police radar unit, while standing right in front of
it for long periods of time might be hazardous, it's not going to be a big
problem in any other way. The power output is too low to be dangerous
anymore than a few feet away from it's waveguide, and even there it'd only
be dangerous after prolonged exposure.
We used to have a klystron that operated in the K-Band in our office,
something left over from a fifties fighter aircraft, that we used to annoy
traffic officers with. Whenever they parked with radar on the street up the
road from our office, we'd hit them every now and then with a pulse from our
klystron, which totally screwed whatever reading they were getting at the
time, because it overpowered the true return signal.
Frankie
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3605
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3606
Date: | 2/7/01 6:49:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 7 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3606
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Documentary
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Anti-RPG
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: Downfall o' the Roman Emp (was something else that I don't re member any more)
RE: Anti-RPG
RE: Another question...
Re: Back after an Absence
OT: LASER
Re: in AOL mail
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Back after an Absence
[Website Review] Dave's Traveller Site
RE: Anti-RPG
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: [TML] Anti-RPG
RE: Another question...
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Back after an Absence
RE: AHL
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:45:11 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Documentary
Bernie McGeehan wrote :
> --- GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> "I heard that those games have
> > caused hundreds of
> > deaths . . . " etc.
>
> Hundreds of deaths? Well, heck, I imagine between us
> all we've knocked out something like a few billion
> deaths...between PCs & NPCs...
At least. One player alone in our TNE game was personally responsible for
around 2 billon deaths. He spent several hours playing the main weaponry of
a starship over the surface of an effectively undefended planet,
concentrating on the larger population centres.
And no, we didn't let him "get away with it".
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 02:40:17 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:
>Loren wrote:
> > Try:
> > http://www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp
> >
> > And, for good measure, try:
> > http://www.chick.com/bc/2000/dinosaurs.asp
> >
> > You'll either laugh or cry.
> >
> > LKW
>
> Loren,
> Thank you for posting the links. What a wonderful web-site! I'd
> encourage everyone to approach the web-site with an open mind instead
> of some knee-jerk reaction! Sure the first activelly attacks our
> hobby, but both make very valid points.
LIke what? I'm honestly curious. I make my living in the RPG
industry and saw nothing resembling truth in anything on that page.
Perhaps you were joking?
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 02:47:24 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
"Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote:
>
> On 6 Feb 2001, at 19:02, Don Roberts wrote:
>
> > anyone who resembles learning or education. Because
> > of small minded people like christians, many different
> > groups have been persecuted over the last 2000 years.
>
> Please do not lump all Christians in with Mr Chick and his ilk. His
> brand of bigoted intolerance has very little to do with mainstream
> Christianity and is actively detested and opposed by many. I really
> hate it when the high profile small mindedness of a bunch of zelots
> blind people to the much larger reality. The pity of it is that people
> like Mr Chick go out of their way to get publicity, while mainstream
> Christianity tends to remain silent as to their works. (and yes I know
> that historical mainstream Christianity has more than a little blood
> on its hands).
Agreed, there are a lots of nuts out there of every stripe, they rarely
represent that mainstream of any large group. I'm a Wiccan priest
and I've still met more tolerant & intelligent Christians than I have
bigotted fundy nutballs.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:45:40 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
>> Are
>> there still a lot of attacks (above and beyond Frank Chick
>pamphlets, that
>> is) becasue, to be honest, maybe I've been blissfully ignorant and
>unseeing
>> of any, but I haven't run accross any. (Watch, with my
>luck, someone will
>> whip out yesterday's Newsweek proclaiming Traveller the
>newest and most
>> powerful incarnation of Der Teufel.)
>
>Try:
>http://www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp
>
>And, for good measure, try:
>http://www.chick.com/bc/2000/dinosaurs.asp
>
>You'll either laugh or cry.
>
Thanks, Loren...I always enjoy a good anti-RPG site (no, really). I wonder
if anyone's thought of writing an RPG setting where all of these ideas are
true...maybe we should suggest GURPS Frank Chick to SJ? :)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:49:54 -0000
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Downfall o' the Roman Emp (was something else that I don't re member any more)
> Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 21:02:29 -0500
> From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
> Subject: Re: Downfall o' the Roman Emp (was something else
> that I don't remember any more)
>
> At 12:12 AM 2/6/01 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
> > > That would be climatic changes due to a very large Volcano
> > > (don't remember which at the time). Ruined crops and agricultural
> > > productivity for two years. And it happened at the worst possible
> > > time - with the Huns on the door.
> > >
> > > - -bloo
> >
> >I hadn't come across this one before.
>
> From a discussion on an archaeology list a couple months ago:
>
> ***
> "It was a catastrophic event, which can be proven in trees in the
> whole world ", explains to Baillie, which gathered an extensive tree
> ring file. Among them are also trees, which were conserved in sumps
> and whose tree rings go some thousand years into the past. Tree rings
> approximately from the year 540 A.D. document a strongly slowed down
> growth of the trees. A similar tree ring sample gives only 1816, to
> the "year without summers", caused by an outbreak of the Indonesian
> volcano Tambora.
>
> ***
> I saw a rerun of this show as well. To add to Vel's list,
> there are also
> records
> of eclipses in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle around this time:
> A.D. 538. This year the sun was eclipsed, fourteen days before
> the calends of March, from before morning until nine.
> A.D. 540. This year the sun was eclipsed on the twelfth day
> before the calends of July; and the stars showed themselves full
> nigh half an hour over nine.
>
> ***
> About a year old there was a television broadcast making
> light of a new
> theory concerning the onset of the "dark ages" due to a
> massive worldwide
> weather change due to a volcanic super eruption where so much
> debris was
> thrown into the upper stratosphere thus changing the weather
> worldwide akin
> to a "nuclear winter."
> Here's what I recall...
> 1. Massive explosion in East Indies about the year 535-540.
> 2. Chinese accounts of dark sky and famine due a lack of
> growing season
> 3. Massive shifts of population groups searching for a better
> place to grow
> crops and survive.
> 4. Ice samples taken from the polar ice in Greenland finding
> an ash layer
> about the time of the event in the sixth century.
> 5. Accounts of strange weather from writings from Antioch Syria
> 6. Account of strange events in Rome Italy
>
> ***
> James
All very interesting, and no doubt true. But about a century too late
for it to be one of the causes of the collapse of the Western Roman
Empire as Bloo suggested. I suggest reading Joseph Trainter's "The
Collapse of Complex Societies" for an interesting case study of the
collapse of Rome.
Matt
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:48:16 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
> Because
>of small minded people like christians, many different
>groups have been persecuted over the last 2000 years.
>They have made us ashamed to be another
>sex,race,affiliation,religion,sexual preference,or
>career.
>
Let's be fair Don, you are generalising a bit. I hear a certain Traveller
writer found God a couple of years ago, and more power to him for it.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:48:48 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Another question...
>
>
>Here is a hypothetical for you guys.
>
>if you could go back in time and Slap the design Documments
>down for say the
>new f-22 in front of John and wilbur Wright. what do you think
>they would
>get from looking at them?
>
A headache?
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 12:34:02 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Back after an Absence
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Been away for a while, and am coming back for a visit or ten. Are there
> any individuals here who discuss the Traveller Universe from a GURPS
> perspective?
We discuss the Traveller universe from every possible perspective...
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:44:04 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: OT: LASER
Sorry... when ever I see 'laser' capitalised I hear Doctor Evil
'So you see Mr. Powers, with the use of my LASER I shall take over the
world'
I also see him doing the quote fingers. :)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 13:10:23
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: in AOL mail
I use AOL at Home and I've stuck with AOL 4.0. I enjoy some of the features
of AOL and have had it for six years. I dislike the tendency of 5.0 and 6.0
to "block" other Internet software installed on a PC. So I'm sticking with
4.0.
Mike
- ----Original Message Follows----
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: in AOL mail
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:39:30 EST
> If you have installed AOL's version 6.0 software, and have trouble
> with being unable to turn off HTML in your email, there is a solution.
>
> For AOL email using Windows:
>
> (1) Change your font to Arial 10 if not already on Arial 10 (Arial 10
> is the AOL default).
>
> (2) Write your message.
>
> (3) Highlight the entire message (including signature) using the
> mouse (or do ctrl-A to do the same thing).
>
> (4) Right click anywhere within the message itself. A 'popup menu'
> appears. Move the cursor to "text", and another menu will appear.
> Move the cursor to "normal" and click on it.
>
>
> My thanks to Ron Parker who runs the Tabletweaving List for pulling
> this together.
And you have to do this for each message? No way to set it as a default?
This
is not an optimum solution.
LKW
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 07:19:26 -0600
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
Loren posted:
>
> > Are
> > there still a lot of attacks (above and beyond Frank Chick pamphlets, that
> > is) becasue, to be honest, maybe I've been blissfully ignorant and
> unseeing
> > of any, but I haven't run accross any. (Watch, with my luck, someone will
> > whip out yesterday's Newsweek proclaiming Traveller the newest and most
> > powerful incarnation of Der Teufel.)
>
> Try:
> http://www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp
>
> And, for good measure, try:
> http://www.chick.com/bc/2000/dinosaurs.asp
>
> You'll either laugh or cry.
>
> LKW
Come on now, Loren. You know the universe must remain in
balance.
*Someone* had to offset the brilliance of Einstein.
I do admit the depths of stupidity and intellectual
cowardice this guy sinks to is rather awesome.
David
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 13:23:00
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Back after an Absence
Welcome back!
All forms of Traveller are discussed here..
Mike
- ----Original Message Follows----
From: hal@buffnet.net
Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Back after an Absence
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 22:57:43 -0800
Hello Folks,
Been away for a while, and am coming back for a visit or ten. Are there
any individuals here who discuss the Traveller Universe from a GURPS
perspective?
Hal
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:32:08 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: [Website Review] Dave's Traveller Site
The Traveller Website Review
- ----------------------------
Following a link from the Freelance Traveller links page we come
to ...
Dave's Traveller Site
(http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj/Traveller/index.html)
Note this URL ends "index.html" and not "Traveller.html" as the
Freelance Traveller has it. Dave Golden (the site's owner) has
reorganised this site and left a forwarding page in the old
location.
The front page is a straight forward list of the different
sections (reminiscent of an old JTAS table of contents). First
up was "Amber Zone" which holds 13 items (CT and/or TNE) ranging
from plot hooks to full adventures. "The Admiralty" is a site in
its own right with 90 starship designs (both military and
civilian, mostly CT and TNE but also a few MT), designers notes
(and more) for FF&S2, a dozen different ship panels for Brilliant
Lances, and alternative/additional rules for both Brilliant
Lances and Battle Rider. "Casual Encounter" has a few TNE NPCs.
"Ship's Locker" looks set to be another mini-site but there are
only a few items so far. "Rules & Errata" has ... er, houserules
and errata.
But that's not all: "Software" has a mix of spreadsheets and DOS
programs. "Artwork" has a dozen CGI images (but some are
missing, like those from Chris Cox, as the linked site may have
gone), plus a few photos of painted miniatures. "Elsewhere" has
the usual mix of website links.
On the downside "Contact!" doesn't link to anything, and the
"What's New" page indicates there have been no updates since
23-Sep-1999 (prior to that there were fairly regular updates).
In summary: This site does have a lot of material (with the
focus being on CT, TNE, MT, and T4 ... in that order). However,
it also appears to be a dead site and as such could vanish at any
moment. Short of Dave Golden (the webmeister) being persuaded to
resume development of this site I recommend 'strip mining' it
while its still around.
Improvements: The owner should resume developing this site.
Other than that the "Casual Encounter" and "Ship's Locker"
sections are a bit light on material, the "Artwork" CGI links
need maintenance, and the "Contact!" section should either be put
in place or the link removed.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 05:43:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Don Roberts <tne1201@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
- --- "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com> wrote:
>
>
> > Because
> >of small minded people like christians, many
> different
> >groups have been persecuted over the last 2000
> years.
> >They have made us ashamed to be another
> >sex,race,affiliation,religion,sexual preference,or
> >career.
> >
>
> Let's be fair Don, you are generalising a bit. I
> hear a certain Traveller
> writer found God a couple of years ago, and more
> power to him for it.
>
> Dean
You are correct I am generalising just a tad. Maybe I
am being absurd and directing that to absurdity. My
comments were directed to Mr chick and his fundy
nutball friends. It is because of people of his ilk
that I have experienced my own "persecution"
By the way, if anyone is wondering, I am a Deist in my
philosophy. I concur wholeheartedly with the works of
Thomas Paine expounded in "Age of Reason" and
personally believe that the ultimate choice is up to
the individual. (you hear that
fundamentalists...individual not collective) But that
is a topic for another Mailing List.
My comments were not intended to hurt anyone or cause
anyone undo distress. I apologize if anyone on the
list was offended. However, these were just my
opinions;and you know what they say about opinions.
That they are like ****** and everyone has one.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:56:26 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
>>
>> Dean
>You are correct I am generalising just a tad. Maybe I
>am being absurd and directing that to absurdity. My
>comments were directed to Mr chick and his fundy
>nutball friends. It is because of people of his ilk
>that I have experienced my own "persecution"
>By the way, if anyone is wondering, I am a Deist in my
>philosophy. I concur wholeheartedly with the works of
>Thomas Paine expounded in "Age of Reason" and
>personally believe that the ultimate choice is up to
>the individual. (you hear that
>fundamentalists...individual not collective) But that
>is a topic for another Mailing List.
>My comments were not intended to hurt anyone or cause
>anyone undo distress. I apologize if anyone on the
>list was offended. However, these were just my
>opinions;and you know what they say about opinions.
>That they are like ****** and everyone has one.
Well, I personally was neither hurt nor offended. I enjoy stuff like Chicks
site for pure entertainment value.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 08:10:51 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
"Jones, Dean" wrote:
<<snip>>
>
> Well, I personally was neither hurt nor offended. I enjoy stuff like Chicks
> site for pure entertainment value.
For an amusing parody of Chick's pamplets, check out:
http://www.e-sheep.com/Saturnalia/
Be warned: the site is sexually explicit (cartoon nudity and sex).
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 09:12:36 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Anti-RPG
Loren,
Thanks for your comments on the issue, and the links.
I was going to write out something longer but I relaized that my religious
beliefs (whatever they might be) are between me and the Universe, and
that's that. =)
Cheers
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 14:40:22 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Another question...
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
"Here is a hypothetical for you guys, if you could go back in time and
Slap the design Documments down for say the new f-22 in front of John and
wilbur Wright. what do you think they would get from looking at them? A
headache?"
The Wright Bros. (Wilbur and Orville, but the way) were not the simple,
hayseed, bicycle mechanincs popular mythology would have you believe. Their
project lasted for more than a decade, involved much research in different
areas, plus fund raising. They weren't two pin-heaed rubes living in the
1900's version of a trailer park following to Jerry Springer on the
telegraph.
They kept up a huge correspondence with researchers into flight
world-wide. They purchased a gasoline engine (cutting edge hi-tech for
their time), then redesigned and rebuilt it for the higher power and lower
weight they needed. They invented wing warping, aerilons(sic), elevators,
etc.
They were also the first to realize that powered flight would be
dynamic rather than static. It had been assumed that an aircraft in flight
would behave like water craft; you set the rudder and have no need to make
corrections until you needed to change direction. Thanks to their years of
glider experiments, the Wrights realized that flight would require the
constant adjustment to the craft by it's pilot. This was something other
researchers didn't even suspect.
When they went on their European tour to so off the "Flyer", their
first stop was in France. The French researchers were proud and rightfully
so, they had nearly succeeded to fly before the Wrights had. The French
showed up thinking they'd see a series of short hops. Instead one of the
brothers blithely took off and circled the field for an hour or so. Most of
the French left weeping. One vowed never to work in the field again because
the Wrights were so far ahead.
I think the brothers would recognize many of their ideas still present
in the F-22. In fact, after marvelling over it's power plant, materials,
and controls, I think they'd want to take it for a spin!
One of them; I forget who, saw aircraft change drastically during his
lifetime as he lived for a year or two after WW2 (the other died before
WW1). But, no matter how much the machines had changed, they still flew the
same way the "Flyer" did.
Larsen E. Whipsnade
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 06:24:27
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
At 07:02 PM 2/6/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>I have to take a strong stand here! This nitwit and others like him spread
>a message of hate and fear of anything they don't believe. Who is this
>Frank Chick fellow anyway? Never heard of him. But to the point.
Jack Chick. He's a complete nutcase who, alas, is a very charismatic and
has attracted a following of zombies. Best known for his really annoying
little comic books that zombies leave all over the place. I collect them.
> The last time I checked I lived in The UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. Where you
>had the freedom to believe anything that you want to.
Exactly. And if Chick wants to be brain dead, and believe in a really odd
version of the Bible, that's his choice.
>People like Mr. Chick and his moral minority spend all their time running
>around trying to stop people from doing things that make them happy because
>they are basically "messed up freaks" with a serious control complex.
No argument here. One of the newsgroups I regularly read is alt.atheism.
We are constantly bombarded by theist who seem to be determined to convince
that we aren't *really* happy, or that we *really do* believe in God,
seemingly just to justify their own lives.
>If they believe that they have all the right ideas on the way life should
>be lived for other people, then why don't they go start a country of their
>own and quit bothering the rest of us with this nonsense.
Well, as you pointed out, they are in America. Chick and Co. are nutters,
and nobody really takes them seriously.
>I have played D&D for years. I have never had or will have a desire to harm
>anyone in real life other than the defensen of my person or family. I am so
>sick of this claptrap that gamers are outcasts and losers. I have went
>through my entire life getting along with people and making friends. Most
>of the gamers I have met are intelligent people with a good sense of ethics.
And teenagers who game have a much lower suicide rate. The problem is that
these are facts.
(Note to the religious on the list. The following paragraph refers only to
the extremists like Jack Chick.)
There are religious leaders who depend upon ignorance for their power.
Ignorance and fear. Jack Chick is one of those people. He is himself
afraid of the world, so retreats into this fantasy land of an Old Testament
God, and sees anyone who doesn't met his own standards as satanic. It's
not just gamers. Read the tracts on Chick's site and you'll see Catholics,
Mormons, Jews, feminists, scientists.. everybody gets slammed!
Chick, BTW, is also the man who gave us Dark Dungeons.. read the MST3K
version here:
http://www.fecundity.com/darkdung/setup.html
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies. On the
other hand, as a species we write better string quartets.
- Rich Clancey
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 06:31:31
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Back after an Absence
At 10:57 PM 2/6/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>Hello Folks,
> Been away for a while, and am coming back for a visit or ten. Are there
>any individuals here who discuss the Traveller Universe from a GURPS
>perspective?
Some of us write Traveller Universe from a GURPS perspective. :)
Welcome back.
- --
Douglas E. Berry Templar Agent at Large.
gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
Author of GT: Ground Forces
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:50:34 -0500
From: "Charles Prevatte" <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: AHL
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of GDWGAMES@aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2001 8:42 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: AHL
>
>
> > Loren, is there any chance that this could be done?
>
> I'm looking at the question. How much are you willing to pay?
>
Well, you really are asking the wrong person as I collect pretty much
everything GURPS makes and have done so sence the boxed set first came out.
(My boxed set died of over use long ago, sadly). I'm also a traveller
player all the way back to the LBBs. I have 2 copies of the original ASL.
Maps only ($40-$60) depending on what was included and scale. If done like
the Beowolf then tward the high end and perhaps a bit more. I really
depends on bang for the buck. If there were a gurps book available (sold
separately the price above is only for the maps) of adventures to go with it
I'd be much more inclined to pay a higher price for the maps. If the book
had small scale 'planing maps' (say one page per large map) to complement
the large scale maps then it could be a stand alone product with the map
pack being an add on.
I'd probably pay more than above but I'd like the price low enough so I
could get 2 copies without feeling to guilty. One to have laminated for use
and the other to keep. Ours FLGS does laminating and carries a good line of
alcahol and dry erase markers.
Adventure/history book (another $20) (Standard GURPS book price for standard
GURPS book size) I've always considered GURPS books a good deal for the
money.
Hope this helps...
> > ps, My FLGS recently delivered into my hand a collection of
> Twilight 2000
> > materials with a very familiar sounding name as the author for
> a great many
> > of them. I have thourghly enjoying them. Have you considered a TW2000
> > Gurps world book?
>
> Nope. I'm busy enough as it is.
>
> LKW
>
Could you add it to the "wish list" then?
Charles L.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3606
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3607
Date: | 2/7/01 9:16:02 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 7 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3607
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
Handwavium Heat Dissipations (was Re: Science Fiction)
Re: Science Fiction
Re: ATTN Downport
TL7 PCs with starships (was Re: Science Fiction)
RE: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
Re: Handwavium Heat Dissipations (was Re: Science Fiction)
RE: Handwavium Heat Dissipations (was Re: Science Fiction)
RE: Science Fiction (long reply)
RE: 52 million ton hull!
RE: 52 million ton hull!
Re: 52 million ton hull!
RE: 52 million ton hull!
Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
Re: LASER...err...Laser heat dissipation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 15:17:37 -0000
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
Subject: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
Since I appear to have kicked a biggish worm can, a little more
background...
It's a current-generation airborne radar as used in front-line fighters. It
will be mounted in a fixed test rig, which in turn (we have now been told:-)
will be inside a properly-shielded "box" to prevent it microwaving us as we
work.
Now they're just worried what it'll do the the nice, shiny computers the
other side of a (rather flimsy) internal wall...
<slightly tongue-in-cheek>
To anyone under the mistaken belief that Boing had *anything* to do with the
current Harrier (GR7 or AV8B for those who don't know any better:-), I have
two things to say. Firstly, it was McDonnel Douglas who stumped up the
money, long before Boing took them over.
Secondly, it was designed by the Brits, the Yanks just paid for it!
</slightly tongue-in-cheek>
My favorite story (quite possibly true, but could just be an Urban Myth) is
that of the two poor policemen out zapping innocent motorists who suddenly
found their nice speed camera had died on them. When they demanded that the
Top Neddy at the local RAF base should buy them a new one, they were a
little put out to be told that they should be grateful they weren't
currently collecting little pieces of each other from the local hills -
pointing radar devices at fighter-bombers on a live-fire exercise is *not* a
good idea... especially when they are carrying anti-radar weaponry :-)
Jeff.
_________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:28:07 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Handwavium Heat Dissipations (was Re: Science Fiction)
<color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>On 6 Feb 2001, at 17:49, Leonard Erickson wrote:
<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>> > Hmm. What might be some near-handwavium ways of improving heat
> > dissipation at higher tech levels?
>
> You need a type of handwavium that is an electrical insulator, and a
> thermal "superconductor". Being a directional conductor (ie heat
> conducts rapdily north-south, but slowly east-west) would be useful as
> well.
</color>>
<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>> And you want it dumping heat into eaier some "fractal" convection
> cooling fins with *forced* air draft, or you need one hell of a heat
> sink of some sort.
>
> IR signature is going to be a real problem.
</color>(The mention of superconductor reminded me of Niven's superconductor
cloth in the Ringworld books - though that's an electrical
superconductor.)
What affects a material's heat conductivity? (I'm thinking what atomic
level property.) How interelated would thermal and electric
superconductors be? (i.e. if a room-temp electrical superconductor is
found, would it work as a termal superconductor? enough to have the
properties you describe above?)
I suppose any kind of heat->electrical conversion (which could then be
used or stored) is currently inefficient.
<<pause>
I found this webpage which looked interesting:
http://www.energyscience.co.uk/notes/rn9702.htm
"Thermoelectric Superconductivity" by Harold Aspden, 1997
"superconductivity is a phenomenon by which heat is converted into
electricity in a manner contrary to the second law of thermodynamics"
"the phenomenon breaks the laws of physics by regenerating electricity
from heat and doing that with a 100% conversion efficiency"
(He then talks about his theory of gravity and that made me wonder
how the discovery of AG/CG might affect or require superconductive
materials.)
Would the directional property have to be inherent to the
material/structure or could it be done with thermal resistent material
channeling heat in the desired direction?
In any case, it seems to me like an interesting topic to explore
the implications of - if there were evolutionary breakthroughs in
heat dissipation technology, how would it affect other tech and the
TU at various tech levels? (Perhaps adjusting the degree of
'breakthroughs' so as to not run counter to the OTU or surpassing a
Vingian limit.)
Rob
<nofill>
- --
Rob
'Gee, what are we going to do tonight, Mr.Gates?'
'The same thing we do every night, Pinky! Try to take over the world!'
- --
- -- Phil Fraering, on Slashdot.org, article 735, 17 Feb 1998
- -- ('But you just have to say, Windows just doesn't have the same
- -- gracefulness that 'I will pose as Jimmy Hoffa, BACK FROM
- -- VACATION...' does...')
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:32:10 -0800
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Science Fiction
>I hate to burst your bubble, but *I* started programming using FORTRAN
>IV on an IBM 370. I've toggled in bootstrap code on a Honeywell
>"mainframe" that used 6-bit words, and couldn't handle more than 32k
>words of RAM. And I still have a couple of programs punched into paper
>tape as "historical artifacts" for impressing the newbies. Right along
>with a couple of 5 meg diskpacks from and IBM 2311 drive, and a 256
>*byte* core plane.
You had paper tape? I used to *dream* of programming with paper tape.
When we wanted to solve a problem we had to build a big stone circle
in the middle of a plain and wait for the winter solistice.
Paper tape - kids these days don't know how good they have it.
(and, for the record, I don't see what's wrong with speculations like "maybe a
mostly-solid-state-laser could be more reliable than something that has moving
parts that move at nearly the speed of sound (ie, a gun.) Maybe the *details*
suggested aren't perfect (encasing the whole thing in plastic) but since
Traveller
already handwaves heat radiation for starships, handwaving it for small arms
isn't
terrible. And I should note that Traveller incarnations actually do take a
compromise
approach; lasers are useful weapons but with limitations (especially power pack
size, and armour penetration in TNE) and hence do not dominate the battlefield.
TNE even lets you make them extra-rugged so you can toss them around
casually.
Bruce
Bruce
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 23:02:07 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: ATTN Downport
The numbers to pay attention to (the ones that matter commercially) are
Total Pages and Total Visitors. Hits and files count everything and can be
seriously affected by images and scripts. Look at how Heaven & Earth has a
category where over 9000 hits were generated by only 400 visitors! Another
interesting number is the Unique URLs, which tells you how many of your
pages were actually visited during the period. My favorite number, though,
is Total Unique Sites, which gives you an inkling of how many *different*
people viewed the site. It is tainted by the fact that one person might
visit with several different IP addresses during a month, but the number is
not more than 2x the actual, I'd guess. That means that about 2800 different
people with an interest in Traveller visited Downport in January. Call that
a mini market analysis :-)
I do notice one excellent statistic about your site: your average visitor
views 7.9 pages versus Dowport's 6.3 page average. So, even though we bring
in five times as many visitors we only get about four times as many hits out
of them.
ObTrav: From my perspective, Traveller seems to be alive and well. It should
be giving somebody a nice revenue stream. Who on this list is actually
making money in the Traveller business (no, eBay does not count :-p )
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<><~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Colin Michael, webmaster@downport.com
www.Downport.com - "The Traveller Domain"
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> I installed webalizer on the travellercentral site.
>
> http://www.travelercentral.com/temp/usage
>
> Look like I get about 25% of your activity.
> (231,000 hits vs. 71,000).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:36:29 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: TL7 PCs with starships (was Re: Science Fiction)
On 6 Feb 2001, at 17:49, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > But there are things I'd like to tweak IMTU, to give it what to *me
> > and my group* is a better feel. Some things to add a bit of "awe and
> > wonder" to the milieu that seems so impressive in my head. In trying
> > to entice my group to play Traveller again I've faced comments that
> > Traveller amounted to "TL7 characters/equipment with starships".[1]
>
> Alas, that *is* what we've got for rules. And for most of the stories
> they were based on.
Is that how you and others play? Do you add anything to give the
milieu a boost to it's TL feel? (when in appropriately high TL areas.)
Are there post-1980 works of fiction or scientific
developments that influence your TU?
- --
Rob
'Basic research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.'
- - Wehner Von Braun
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:34:17 -0600
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com>
Subject: RE: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
Jeff,
And well they should be concerned. Some fighter radars are capable of
producing over a hundred thousand watt pulse down a 1 degree bearing: This
is enough to reheat your lunch well in excess of 100 meters away. This
classifies as a "BAD THING" for digital watches, cell phones, PDAs and the
like.
Even the smallest signal leakage could bollix up a computer quite some
distance away.
Hope they figure a way to keep your nice computers from getting EMP'd to
death. I might run this one by my sister: she works for a network chipmaker
that specializes in Gigabit Ethernet and Fiber (Broadcom)...
Best,
Matt
I knew that the Harrier was a first and foremost a British effort: the
Marines with their endless fascination with more weaponry (funny they only
drop dumb bombs instead of laser guided munitions, but hey, they're Marines,
after all...) helped fund the AV8B (the new supercritical wing, additional
hard points and LIDs - they also added weight on wheels safeties for the
weapons, because, again, they are only Marines...)
)
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jeff Rowse
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 9:18 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
Since I appear to have kicked a biggish worm can, a little more
background...
It's a current-generation airborne radar as used in front-line fighters. It
will be mounted in a fixed test rig, which in turn (we have now been told:-)
will be inside a properly-shielded "box" to prevent it microwaving us as we
work.
Now they're just worried what it'll do the the nice, shiny computers the
other side of a (rather flimsy) internal wall...
<slightly tongue-in-cheek>
To anyone under the mistaken belief that Boing had *anything* to do with the
current Harrier (GR7 or AV8B for those who don't know any better:-), I have
two things to say. Firstly, it was McDonnel Douglas who stumped up the
money, long before Boing took them over.
Secondly, it was designed by the Brits, the Yanks just paid for it!
</slightly tongue-in-cheek>
My favorite story (quite possibly true, but could just be an Urban Myth) is
that of the two poor policemen out zapping innocent motorists who suddenly
found their nice speed camera had died on them. When they demanded that the
Top Neddy at the local RAF base should buy them a new one, they were a
little put out to be told that they should be grateful they weren't
currently collecting little pieces of each other from the local hills -
pointing radar devices at fighter-bombers on a live-fire exercise is *not* a
good idea... especially when they are carrying anti-radar weaponry :-)
Jeff.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 15:46:32 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Handwavium Heat Dissipations (was Re: Science Fiction)
Gents,
The previous post postulated a heat superconductor and then mentioned
Niven's electrical superconducting cloth from the "Ringworld" series.
Didn't Niven and Pournelle also come up with a heat superconductor in
both "Mote" books that the Moties had developed? If my little gray cells
are firing properly, it was one of the most important artifacts the first
mission brought back. In "The Gripping Hand" there's an aside about how
most space craft are now sheathed in it and that it has revolutionized sip
combat, giving the 2nd Empire even more of an edge over the other human
"Outie" worlds.
Laresen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:42:13 -0600
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com>
Subject: RE: Handwavium Heat Dissipations (was Re: Science Fiction)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C090EA.4093F800
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charset="us-ascii"
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Historically, technological improvements revolve around heat: How to make
more of it, and how to use more of it.
I think it would be reasonable to assume that most efforts after
fusion is made a reality will be to use heat more efficiently. Even now,
major efforts are made to keep thermal efficiency as high as possible
(Mostly with internal combustion engines and to a limited extent, with
fission reactors; Liquid Sodium and Breeder Reactors)
Thoughts?
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<div class=3DSection1>

color=3Dnavy
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:12.0pt;color:navy'>Historically, technological
improvements revolve around heat: How to make more of it, and how to use =
more
of it. </span><span =
style=3D'color:navy;mso-color-alt:
windowtext'><o:p></o:p></span>

<span class=3DEmailStyle16>color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></span>

<span class=3DEmailStyle16>color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><s=
pan
style=3D'mso-tab-count:1'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>I
think it would be reasonable to assume that most efforts after fusion is =
made a
reality will be to use heat more efficiently. Even now, major efforts =
are made
to keep thermal efficiency as high as possible (Mostly with internal =
combustion
engines and to a limited extent, with fission reactors; Liquid Sodium =
and
Breeder Reactors)<o:p></o:p></span></span>

<span class=3DEmailStyle16>color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><!=
[if =
!supportEmptyParas]>&nbsp;<![endif]><o:p></o:p></span></span>

<span class=3DEmailStyle16>color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><s=
pan
style=3D'mso-tab-count:1'>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp=
;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span>Thoughts?<o:p></o:p></span></span>

<span class=3DEmailStyle16>color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Arial'><s=
pan
style=3D"mso-spacerun: =
yes">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></span></span>

</div>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C090EA.4093F800--
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:53:34 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: Science Fiction (long reply)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Ray Rangel
> Sent: 06 February 2001 03:56
> To: Traveller
> Subject: Science Fiction
>
> I have been in the computer industry for over 20 years. In
> that time I have gone from bootstrapping computers using
> toggle switches in groups of threes (facilitating entry of
> octal digits) to booting off of my CD-ROM using laser
> technology.
>
Ahh, the good-old PDP-8, I remember it well. (BASIC on paper tape - we
had to write the interpreter as part of our computer studies course.
Those were the days....)
>
> In 1984 Intel proclaimed that the 80186 was the fastest
> processor that physics would allow and that we had hit
> the "hardware" barrier.
>
At the time, it was true - but the barrier was the maximum capacity of
the then _available_ hardware, not of the physical limits of matter.
>
[snip]
>
> Why does assuming that power sources in the future will be
> more reliable than they are now break any physical laws?
>
Because we now know the fundamental energy equivalent content of much
of the material universe (including even some idea of the Casimir
energy of the vaccuum itself). Together with the mechanical laws
governing physical systems (back to Newton...) we know the maximum
efficiency a system can have. Given the maximum efficiency and the
total available energy, it is a breeze to work out the maximum
possible available energy from a particular power source type.
>
> Why does a projection that a solid state LASER might be
> constructed in the future with far more power and
> reliability than we have now break any physical laws?
>
It doesn't. It means that get such a device there needs to be a new
discovery that might change the way such laws can be applied. As an
example, silicon solar power collectors can reach up to 20%-30%
efficiency which limits the amount of energy you can get from solar
power. Whatever you do, you can't change that without breaking the
laws of physics, BUT a recent discovery of a new _form_ of crystalline
silicon (black silicon, New Scientist Jan 2001) provides a potential
new way of collecting solar energy with efficiencies of around 90%.
The laws of physics don't change; the mechanical laws used to
construct collectors don't change - but something new and previously
unknown has been added.
Similarly, a laser works as it does because of "charging" the quantuum
energy levels in the laser "engine". These also have a maximum -
defined by the laws of physics. In order to increase the output
energy, you need to find something new that allows a greater _number_
of quantuum states to be charged/discharged to produce the laser beam.
If our current lasers were 100% efficient (charged all the available
states), that would be the absolute limit (they are not though). As it
is - like solar collectors - a new substance that has a higher
available number of "chargable states" may produce a more powerful
beam. In fact, the black silicon already mentioned did just that,
producing a beam 5 times more powerful than the _same_ equipment using
standard amorphous silicon.
>
[snip]
>
Sorry this has been a bit long, but the upshot of it all is that we
now know more about the fundamental nature of the universe and its
absolute, (probably) fixed limits of capability. You simply cannot
break those laws (as far as we know).
What you _can_ do is change the efficiency with which our devices use
those laws. About the best we can ever reasonably hope to do is to
reach 90% efficiency for anything. Our current laser technology is
around 10%-30% efficient and so it is unlikley we will ever see lasers
more than 3 to 10 times more powerful than we have now.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:27:18 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: 52 million ton hull!
>
>Timothy Little wrote:
>> How about six separate toruses?
>
>The toruses would need to have slightly different radii (or they would
>be connected). You would probably want to place them at
>different angles
>compared to the equator of the plane, since that would (on
>average) give
>a shorter trip from the planet to a highport.
>
>> Or one torus and five stations that are each merely huge?
>
>Could work, but I get a sudden vision of a huge station smashing into a
>even larger torus...
Perhaps Six highports connected together, forming a torus with dirty great
lumps on it? It'd look a bit like a crown, but with the spikes on top AND
bottom. Given time, you could walk from one highport to another. Maybe a
transit system between facilities? It'd give you plenty of additional living
space and would be considerably easier to contruct than a ringworld.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:46:39 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: 52 million ton hull!
Dean Jones wrote:
> Perhaps Six highports connected together, forming a torus with
> dirty great lumps on it? It'd look a bit like a crown, but with
> the spikes on top AND bottom. Given time, you could walk from
> one highport to another. Maybe a transit system between
> facilities? It'd give you plenty of additional living space and
> would be considerably easier to contruct than a ringworld.
Or why not just go for a "distributed structure" like the Borg
world in Star Trek Voyager? Just keep adding bits where-ever as
time goes by without regard for aestetics or symmetry. Actually
large highports probably do grow from small ones over time in
much the same way that ground cities grow.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 11:00:49 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: 52 million ton hull!
On the subject of highports:
http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/02/07/shuttle.launch/index.html
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:57:39 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: 52 million ton hull!
>
>Dean Jones wrote:
>> Perhaps Six highports connected together, forming a torus with
>> dirty great lumps on it? It'd look a bit like a crown, but with
>> the spikes on top AND bottom. Given time, you could walk from
>> one highport to another. Maybe a transit system between
>> facilities? It'd give you plenty of additional living space and
>> would be considerably easier to contruct than a ringworld.
>Peter Trevor wrote:
>Or why not just go for a "distributed structure" like the Borg
>world in Star Trek Voyager? Just keep adding bits where-ever as
>time goes by without regard for aestetics or symmetry. Actually
>large highports probably do grow from small ones over time in
>much the same way that ground cities grow.
>
Hmm, not sure about Borg-style distributed structure...would make it look
kind of plain and ring-like. I was trying to suggest a structure that
combines the really cool image of a ring circling the planet with the
concept of six highports.
While your suggestion would make it nicely lumpy it would probably lack huge
sticky-out bits the size of Trin highport :)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:02:07 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
<minor nit>
> To anyone under the mistaken belief that Boing had *anything* to do with
the
it's Boeing
</minor nit>
Unless that was intentional.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:14:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: LASER...err...Laser heat dissipation
Ray Rangel writes:
> And this is a good example of how tunnel vision prevents problems from
> being solved...
>
> There has been a refrain that one can't "pot" a laser (or LASER) because
> the heat must be dissipated.
>
> The unspoken assumption is that the heat must be _dissipated_.
The heat has to be gotten rid of somehow. You can use coolant material with
a high heat capacity to absorb the heat temporarily, but there's a limit to
how much those materials can absorb, so eventually you do need to dissipate
the heat.
> The assumption in these posts has been that a laser must be high powered to
> do damage.
Which, in fact, it must. Still, the best way to make a laser produce less
heat is to make it more efficient; a theoretical 99% efficient laser probably
wouldn't have much in the way of heat problems. However, high efficiency for
lasers is another of those Hard problems.
However, looking at the use of a laser from a different
> perspective reveals that the damage is caused by the heat generated at the
> target. It is entirely possible to hit the target with many nano bursts of
> low energy to get the same effect. Thus, a laser that uses a msec burst
> composed of pulses that are in the sub usec range would use half the power
> and get substantially the same effect (the pulses are so short that the
> subject doesn't cool between them).
No, it would use the same amount of power.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3607
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From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)
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Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3607
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3608
Date: | 2/7/01 1:16:58 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 7 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3608
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
X-TEK Landgrab info
RE: Science Fiction
RE: 52 million ton hull!
Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
RE: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
More landgrap info...
Urgent
RE: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
Re: The Russians invented it first?
Re: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
Re: Documentary
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
Re: What can go wrong with your Free Trader...or 'Why is my serial number '3'?
RE: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
Re: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
Re: What can go wrong with your Free Trader...or 'Why is my serial number '3'?
Re: More landgrab info...
Greetings
Re: More landgrab info...
Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:21:20 -0500 (EST)
From: "William 'Commander X' Prankard" <cmdrx@ao.net>
Subject: X-TEK Landgrab info
The new interest in the land grab has made me look and see how the
research facility on 871-438 is doing. According to our timetable we are
currently over halfway complete with Phase II of the project with
completion by 150-1121. (Current campain date is 38-1121) Phase II will
upgrade the current Class D/II starport facility to a Class C/III. The
Starport will include an X-TEK upgrade and repair facility and a
manufacturing level of technology at the highest current imperial levels
(TTL 15/ GTL12). The research facility at area 51 is also due to be
online by 150-1121.
Clearence has been granted by the Archducal court to procede with an
orbital shipyard facility (Phase III). When completed, this facility will
upgrade the Starport to Class A/V. This facility will be 100,000dt in
size and will take nearly 1.5 standard years to build. Completion date is
slated for holiday of 1123.
URL (update your bookmarks, Downport's link is wrong!)
http://www.ao.net/~cmdrx/xtek/xtekinfo/landgrab.htm
\\ // Commander X
\\ // CEO X-TEK Industries of Deneb, LIC
T E K Starship Contractor & High Energy Weapons Research
// \\ http://www.ao.net/~cmdrx/xtek
// \\ 0608 D557777-A kk- va+ so+ zh+ da+ A723
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 09:22:44 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Science Fiction
yes. I agree. totally.
What Ray said.
hasta
- -----Original Message-----
From: Ray Rangel [mailto:ray.rangel@worldnet.att.net]
Sent: Monday, February 05, 2001 7:56 PM
To: Traveller
Subject: Science Fiction
I have been in the computer industry for over 20 years. In that time I have
gone from bootstrapping computers using toggle switches in groups of threes
(facilitating entry of octal digits) to booting off of my CD-ROM using laser
technology.
In 1984 Intel proclaimed that the 80186 was the fastest processor that
physics would allow and that we had hit the "hardware" barrier.
The first computers that I worked on were megawatt eating monster machines
that had performance which is now surpassed by the bottom end Palm Pilot.
Science Fiction? SCIENCE fiction? science FICTION?
Why does assuming that power sources in the future will be more reliable
than they are now break any physical laws? Why does a projection that a
solid state LASER might be constructed in the future with far more power and
reliability than we have now break any physical laws?
The fact is that there are an infinite number of paths that the future can
take and still remain within the scope of the real, physical, bounds of the
universe.
As I have said before, I am on new ground where it comes to the Traveller
universe. I'm sure that if I were (or have) said something that is contrary
to the Traveller Universe as it has been defined by canon, then some one
would be kind enough to correct me. But, so far, I can see no physical
barriers that are insurmountable to the proposals stated for the use of
battlefield LASERs in the far future. The objections, so far, have
identified technological hurdles that must be crossed, but none physical.
What I have seen, though, is the tendency to define tomorrow's possibilities
in terms of today's technological limitations. Intel did the same thing in
1985...just before they proved themselves wrong...again.
All of us that were programming computers by flipping switches, feeding
cards, or punching paper tape would have thought that the concept of a giant
network interconnecting super-computers in millions of homes all over the
world was anything but lunacy. How about billions of bits could be stored on
silvery plastic disks written and read by LASER beams within a package
measuring about 6x5.5x1.5 and running on only milliamps at only 12 volts.
Science Fiction means staying within the bounds of natural law. Ok, I'll go
along with that. Perhaps it's just my nature as an engineer...I just
naturally try to think about things CAN be done instead of why they can't.
That's why I have enjoyed SF for so many years. SF acknowledges the
possibilities rather than the limitations.
Ok, Ray's off his soapbox...sorry for the diversion...
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:04:21 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: 52 million ton hull!
Dean Jones wrote:
> > Or why not just go for a "distributed structure" like the Borg
> > world in Star Trek Voyager? Just keep adding bits where-ever as
> > time goes by without regard for aestetics or symmetry. Actually
> > large highports probably do grow from small ones over time in
> > much the same way that ground cities grow.
>
> Hmm, not sure about Borg-style distributed structure...would
> make it look kind of plain and ring-like. I was trying to suggest
> a structure that combines the really cool image of a ring circling
> the planet with the concept of six highports. While your
> suggestion would make it nicely lumpy it would probably lack huge
> sticky-out bits the size of Trin highport :)
The scene in ST:V I was thinking about would have it as dozens of
irregular "industrial"-looking structures, some connected by long
'strands' ... with ships zipping inbetween. A sort of "busy
disorganised construction site" look as opposed to the ST
Federation "planned society" look.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:31:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
Hey, has anyone mentioned that the San Francisco Bay Area group had a very
successful outing last Saturday? Ten people (if I counted right) all
found each other at the USS Hornet Museum, which is simply the USS Hornet
CVS-12, a WW2-era aircraft carrier docked at Alameda Naval Air Station.
Much of the ship still works, including the main aircraft elevator, the
radar, and, most importantly, the heads. The galley looked operational,
too, but food was served to museum guests by an outside catering service.
Some of us took tours, including: the island, which is the conning tower
structure that oversees flight operations and contains the main bridge;
the engine room; the forward area (including the anchor chain room and the
secondary bridge).
Dave Summers estimated that the volume of the Hornet worked out to about
50,000 dtons.
I hope someone posts the pictures of us taking off in the A-8 fighter
(about the size of a Rampart, I think) and sitting in the captain's chair.
We also took a flight simulator ride before lunch (don't do it after). I
resisted the impulse to buy yet another hat.
Across the dock was the USS Bremerton, a Los Angeles-class fast attack
submarine. It is on active duty, but was taking a liberty stop at
Alameda, and giving tours. Some of the group took tours of the sub, too.
I came back on Sunday for a tour, but they had lost shore power and were
having to snorkel, so they were not giving any tours that afternoon for an
indefinite time. They were supposed to be open for tours through Tuesday,
but when I showed up on my lunch break, they were gone! Maybe they sped
off early to intervene in some crisis off the California coast.
I heartily recommend the USS Hornet Museum to get a feeling for the
interior of a good-sized ship, but I've gone on long enough, so I'll ask
the other participants to provide some more details (assuming the list is
interested).
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 10:48:48 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
Pictures gonna' be posted somewhere? Wish I coulda' gone, but there was no
way in hell with the current projects I'm working on :(
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Glenn Goffin
> Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 10:32 AM
> To: traveller mailing aa list
> Subject: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
>
>
> Hey, has anyone mentioned that the San Francisco Bay Area group had a very
> successful outing last Saturday? Ten people (if I counted right) all
> found each other at the USS Hornet Museum, which is simply the USS Hornet
> CVS-12, a WW2-era aircraft carrier docked at Alameda Naval Air Station.
> Much of the ship still works, including the main aircraft elevator, the
> radar, and, most importantly, the heads. The galley looked operational,
> too, but food was served to museum guests by an outside catering service.
> Some of us took tours, including: the island, which is the conning tower
> structure that oversees flight operations and contains the main bridge;
> the engine room; the forward area (including the anchor chain room and the
> secondary bridge).
>
> Dave Summers estimated that the volume of the Hornet worked out to about
> 50,000 dtons.
>
> I hope someone posts the pictures of us taking off in the A-8 fighter
> (about the size of a Rampart, I think) and sitting in the captain's chair.
>
> We also took a flight simulator ride before lunch (don't do it after). I
> resisted the impulse to buy yet another hat.
>
> Across the dock was the USS Bremerton, a Los Angeles-class fast attack
> submarine. It is on active duty, but was taking a liberty stop at
> Alameda, and giving tours. Some of the group took tours of the sub, too.
> I came back on Sunday for a tour, but they had lost shore power and were
> having to snorkel, so they were not giving any tours that afternoon for an
> indefinite time. They were supposed to be open for tours through Tuesday,
> but when I showed up on my lunch break, they were gone! Maybe they sped
> off early to intervene in some crisis off the California coast.
>
> I heartily recommend the USS Hornet Museum to get a feeling for the
> interior of a good-sized ship, but I've gone on long enough, so I'll ask
> the other participants to provide some more details (assuming the list is
> interested).
>
> --Glenn
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 11:20:54 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: More landgrap info...
Ok First I definatly want to do Rio in the Chronor Sector so if someone
could set me up for it i would really appreciate it.
Second I am using CT rules for the creation of this world. I see some are
using other sets of rules or something because i see classifications i ahve
never seen
Ex class C/III starport
is there a Problem using just CT rules for the creation of this system?
Also i would like a complete history of the Empirium and specifically the
Spinward marches.
Where can i get this.
also if someone can make me a copy of the Zhodani book so i can have some
understanding of them and the way they do things. I can pay for the copies
and mailing.
Anyway
thanks
Bill Lane
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 13:24:59 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Urgent
I need an answer to this question ASAP:
Are there established subsector names for subsectors E and I of the Fornast
Sector?
Loren Wiseman
Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society http://jtas.sjgames.com/
SJ Games
lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
(512) 447-7866 VOX
(512) 447-1144 FAX
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 11:20:06
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
At 10:48 AM 2/7/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>Pictures gonna' be posted somewhere? Wish I coulda' gone, but there was no
>way in hell with the current projects I'm working on :(
We'll be getting our pictures back today, and I'll put up the best ones on
a page.
The plane Glenn mentioned was actually a F-8 Crusader.
At one point Kirsten threatened to leave me if I didn't keep timing off
6-second intervals. What can I say? That ship just screamed "Live Action
ACQ." :)
We were lucky enough to show up on a "living ship" day. They were moving
planes around, announciments coming over the PA system. A very interesting
place.
What Glenn forgot to mention was dinner afterwards at The Old Spaghetti
Factory. Very, very good food.
I think only dave got into the sub. Kiri-chan and her friend (forgotten
his name) went over, but she had had her fill of ladders, and Kirsten and I
were just too tired to go further.
Oh, they also have a Moon rock. Kept in a crystal pyramid. Fnord!
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
Embrace Fascism. The uniforms look cool
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 19:37:41 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: The Russians invented it first?
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> That kicked off a whole series of armor vs. weapon changes in tanks
> worldwide, finally culminating with the "composite" or "Cobham" armor and
> the depleted uranium penetrator. Which in turn led to sqawking about
> radiation poisoning from the Iraqis and Serbs who'd been on the receiving
> end of such rounds...
>
I think you are mainly thinking about ERA (explosive reactive Armour) which
causes HESH, HiEx and stand-off rounds to detonate too early so that their
effectiveness takes a huge tumble.. DU just goes straight through and ruins
your day baby!
Si
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 19:36:19 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
"Hey, has anyone mentioned that the San Francisco Bay Area group had a
very successful outing last Saturday? Ten people (if I counted right) all
found each other at the USS Hornet Museum, which is simply the USS Hornet
CVS-12, a WW2-era aircraft carrier docked at Alameda Naval Air Station."
Nice to here that they found some use for NAS Alameda after closing the
base. I had the (mis)fortune to be homeported there during the latter half
of the 80's.
The gaggle of kleptocrats in DC had decided to spread out the Navy's
paychecks, so two carriers, Enterprise and Vinson, and two cruisers,
Arkansas and California, were reassinged to Alameda. While a perfectly
servicable air base; and already home to a marine air group, the base and
surrounding community were completely unsuited for the 6000+ sailors aboard
the four warships now homeported there.
There was next-to-none base housing available for the married crew
members and rents in the community were completely out of our reach. Some
of my shipmates had to live as far away as Vellejo. Simple necessities like
fleet parking, laundromats, shuttle buses, and the like weren't available.
NAS Alameda simply couldn't support us and no attempts were made to
change that. We had trouble over waht should have been simple ship services
like sewage, shore steam, electricity, and resin trucks. Believe me,
Bremerton's trouble with shore power during your visit was a weekly
occurance for us. How much juice do you think 2 carriers and 2 cruisers
need to run their coolant pumps? Our emergencey diesels got plenty of run
hours.
During one of our deployments, the base command towed all our cars out
of the parking lots and deposited them in a lot at the end of the airstrip.
We got charged for it too. A nice present to come home to after 8 months in
the Persian Gulf
There was also no maintenance support, and this for 4 nuclear powered
vessels! Anytime we needed anything done, we had to pull rods and steam
south to San Diego; the place we should have been in the first place.
I won't even get into how much the town of Alameda "enjoyed" having
6000+ squids dumped on them. Let's just say that my shipmates and I quickly
collected quite a number of jaywalking tickets.
On a historical note, Alameda was where Hornet loaded Doolittle and his
B-25s for the Tokyo raid. Great idea to have her return there.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 19:47:36 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Documentary
> Hundreds of deaths? Well, heck, I imagine between us
> all we've knocked out something like a few billion
> deaths...between PCs & NPCs...
>
Mostly PCs i'm proud to say
lol
Si
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 19:55:34 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
> <snip>
> *Someone* had to offset the brilliance of Einstein.
>
> David
Here's one to start some controversy, was the big E as brilliant or less or more so
than Prof Hawking?
<throws in social hand grenade and then retires to safe distance>
:-)
Si
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 19:52:46 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
>
> Let's be fair Don, you are generalising a bit. I hear a certain Traveller
> writer found God a couple of years ago, and more power to him for it.
>
> Dean
Which sector was he/she in?
;-)
Si
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 19:58:30 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
> My favorite story (quite possibly true, but could just be an Urban Myth) is
> that of the two poor policemen out zapping innocent motorists who suddenly
> found their nice speed camera had died on them. When they demanded that the
> Top Neddy at the local RAF base should buy them a new one, they were a
> little put out to be told that they should be grateful they weren't
> currently collecting little pieces of each other from the local hills -
> pointing radar devices at fighter-bombers on a live-fire exercise is *not* a
> good idea... especially when they are carrying anti-radar weaponry :-)
> Jeff.
Partial myth but the basis of the story is true
Si
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 13:05:20 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: What can go wrong with your Free Trader...or 'Why is my serial number '3'?
John Groth wrote:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>> Attention GM's, while this url (
>> http://people.ne.mediaone.net/constantin/Prout/index.html ) specifically
>> covers the trials and tribulations of a boat owner and his mis-designed
>> yacht, there's lots of gaming fodder to inflict on your players.
>
> Of course, PCs can avoid such difficulties (which make General
> Shipyards' products seem reliable) by purchasing ships from yards that
> take pride in their work, such as AuricTech Shipyards.... ;-)
Any PC that can buy a ship from someplace that advertises "Gold-Plated
[tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" has too much money, and
should have it taken away promptly. ;-)
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:19:59 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
Would love to go the next time the SF area travellers get together. is there
some way to get into contact with them ?
hasta
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Goffin [mailto:gmgoffin@yahoo.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 10:32 AM
To: traveller mailing aa list
Subject: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
Hey, has anyone mentioned that the San Francisco Bay Area group had a very
successful outing last Saturday? Ten people (if I counted right) all
found each other at the USS Hornet Museum, which is simply the USS Hornet
CVS-12, a WW2-era aircraft carrier docked at Alameda Naval Air Station.
Much of the ship still works, including the main aircraft elevator, the
radar, and, most importantly, the heads. The galley looked operational,
too, but food was served to museum guests by an outside catering service.
Some of us took tours, including: the island, which is the conning tower
structure that oversees flight operations and contains the main bridge;
the engine room; the forward area (including the anchor chain room and the
secondary bridge).
Dave Summers estimated that the volume of the Hornet worked out to about
50,000 dtons.
I hope someone posts the pictures of us taking off in the A-8 fighter
(about the size of a Rampart, I think) and sitting in the captain's chair.
We also took a flight simulator ride before lunch (don't do it after). I
resisted the impulse to buy yet another hat.
Across the dock was the USS Bremerton, a Los Angeles-class fast attack
submarine. It is on active duty, but was taking a liberty stop at
Alameda, and giving tours. Some of the group took tours of the sub, too.
I came back on Sunday for a tour, but they had lost shore power and were
having to snorkel, so they were not giving any tours that afternoon for an
indefinite time. They were supposed to be open for tours through Tuesday,
but when I showed up on my lunch break, they were gone! Maybe they sped
off early to intervene in some crisis off the California coast.
I heartily recommend the USS Hornet Museum to get a feeling for the
interior of a good-sized ship, but I've gone on long enough, so I'll ask
the other participants to provide some more details (assuming the list is
interested).
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 14:35:17 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
>
> From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
> "Hey, has anyone mentioned that the San Francisco Bay Area group had a
> very successful outing last Saturday? Ten people (if I counted right) all
> found each other at the USS Hornet Museum, which is simply the USS Hornet
> CVS-12, a WW2-era aircraft carrier docked at Alameda Naval Air Station."
>
<<snip>>
> On a historical note, Alameda was where Hornet loaded Doolittle and his
> B-25s for the Tokyo raid. Great idea to have her return there.
Wrong _USS Hornet_. Doolittle flew from CV-8 (also named _Hornet_),
which was subsequently sunk during the Guadalcanal campaign.
ObTrav: Over the 1100+ years of Imperial history, ship names
(especially for major combatants) must have been reused repeatedly,
causing similar confusion.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 14:37:48 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: What can go wrong with your Free Trader...or 'Why is my serial number '3'?
Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
> John Groth wrote:
>
> > Bruce Johnson wrote:
> >
> >> Attention GM's, while this url (
> >> http://people.ne.mediaone.net/constantin/Prout/index.html ) specifically
> >> covers the trials and tribulations of a boat owner and his mis-designed
> >> yacht, there's lots of gaming fodder to inflict on your players.
> >
> > Of course, PCs can avoid such difficulties (which make General
> > Shipyards' products seem reliable) by purchasing ships from yards that
> > take pride in their work, such as AuricTech Shipyards.... ;-)
>
> Any PC that can buy a ship from someplace that advertises "Gold-Plated
> [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" has too much money, and
> should have it taken away promptly. ;-)
I wholeheartedly agree. Preferably into our coffers.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 15:44:36 -0500
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: More landgrab info...
William Lane wrote:
> I am using CT rules for the creation of this world. I see some are
>using other sets of rules or something because i see classifications i ahve
>never seen
>Ex class C/III starport
GURPS:Traveller follows the GURPS:Space convention of labeling starports by roman numerals instead of letters. Whoever wrote the above was providing both sets of info; just like the folks who list both GURPS and 'standard' tech-levels (GTL 12 = TTL 15). Helpful, but by no means mandatory.
>is there a Problem using just CT rules for the creation of this system?
I believe the original Landgrab proposal said to use whatever system(s) you're comfortable with. If I ever get around to claiming a system, I'll almost certainly use CT or MT to detail it.
>Also i would like a complete history of the Empirium and specifically the
>Spinward marches.
>Where can i get this.
History of the Imperium - supplement 8, MT Imperial Encyclopedia, or GURPS:Traveller rulebook. History of the Spinward Marches - supplement 11 or (IIRC) The Traveller Adventure; Spinward Marches Campaign (which I don't have near me) and GT:Behind the Claw (which I don't have at all) presumably repeat and/or supplement this.
Trent
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 15:59:51 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Greetings
Hello Folks,
Good to see so many people on the list <grin>. I was literally taken
aback when my email messages tripled in volume from what I expected after
signing on to the traveller mailing list.
In any event - I look forward to discussing issues relating to GURPS
TRAVELLER. I finally broke down and purchased a copy of the deckplans for
the BEOWULF. Eventually, once I finish working on my visual basic program,
I should be able to automate the FAR TRADER rules enough to use them on my
laptop. Currently, I am working on *learning* to use visual basic, so my
progress is rather slow. I have an algorithm in place (I developed it on
my excel spreadsheet no less <sigh>) that lets me mathematically discern
what the distance from starting hex is to an entered ending hex location.
Perhaps I can solve my programming problems sometime within the next week
(with respect to the distance finder)...
In any event, I look forward to starting up some form of TRAVELLER in the
near future. We have a gaming group that meets every 2 weekends per month.
I'm thinking of starting a TRAVELLER campaign on the alternate 2 weekends
(don't tell my wife this, or I'm in the dog house sooner than I want to be
<grin>)
Gotta run...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:02:57 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: More landgrab info...
Hello Folks,
Since I am a latecomer to this thread, what is the landgrab?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 12:41:57 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
Subject: Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
Hello everyone:
One of my instructors at the US Air Force Academy told us a story about taking
out a radar gun on a highway patrolman's car with a short SMALL burst from a
B-52 ECM gear. The police man was standing by the back gate trying to get people
going in to meet the roll call time. The gun was smoking as the cop dropped it
was how he put it. Of course the base commander and the officer of the day met
him as they were deplaning to enquire about a "SLIGHT BREAKING OF THE SPURIOUS
EMISSION RULES!" He was put under arrest for all of three seconds then dismissed
and nothing more was said about it. When the cops enquired about the Air Force
repaying for their damaged radar gun the commander politely said "No, you should
not be aiming that thing around B52s loaded with nuclear weapons and fightes
with antiradiation missiles, espically when they are coming in for landings!" He
also stated that the people who had done this were punished and that was the end
of the conversation.
John W. Fox
PS: This was verified by another instructor who also happened to be at the base
at that time.
>
>
>
> > My favorite story (quite possibly true, but could just be an Urban Myth) is
> > that of the two poor policemen out zapping innocent motorists who suddenly
> > found their nice speed camera had died on them. When they demanded that the
> > Top Neddy at the local RAF base should buy them a new one, they were a
> > little put out to be told that they should be grateful they weren't
> > currently collecting little pieces of each other from the local hills -
> > pointing radar devices at fighter-bombers on a live-fire exercise is *not* a
> > good idea... especially when they are carrying anti-radar weaponry :-)
> > Jeff.
>
> Partial myth but the basis of the story is true
>
> Si
>
>
>
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3608
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3609
Date: | 2/7/01 3:01:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 7 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3609
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Science Fiction
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Greetings
Re: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
RE: Greetings
Re: Science Fiction
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: in AOL mail
Re: CT fonts question
Re: in AOL mail
(no subject)
Re: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
RE: (no subject)
Aakkk
RE: in AOL mail
Re: (no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
(no subject)
Re: More landgrab info...
RE: (no subject)
Unsubscibe information
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:08:53 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 06:24:27
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
>
> At 07:02 PM 2/6/2001 -0800, you wrote:
<snip>
> Chick, BTW, is also the man who gave us Dark Dungeons.. read the MST3K
> version here:
>
> http://www.fecundity.com/darkdung/setup.html
This is like way totally funny.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:28:23 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Science Fiction
> Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:32:10 -0800
> From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
> Subject: Re: Science Fiction
> You had paper tape? I used to *dream* of programming with paper tape.
> When we wanted to solve a problem we had to build a big stone circle
> in the middle of a plain and wait for the winter solistice.
You think that's bad. We'd've been lucky to have the plain. We had to get
up at six in the morning and level the mountains with our bare hands to get
a plain to build in the middle of.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:39:22 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
on 7/2/01 1:51 am, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> Try:
> http://www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp
>
> And, for good measure, try:
> http://www.chick.com/bc/2000/dinosaurs.asp
>
> You'll either laugh or cry.
These are the folk who seem to be taking their role-playing far too
seriously, and in danger of confusing their games with the nature of
consensual reality. If only they knew.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 15:39:10 -0600
From: Terry Mixon <tmixon@ghg.net>
Subject: Re: Greetings
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Hello Folks,
> Good to see so many people on the list <grin>. I was literally taken
> aback when my email messages tripled in volume from what I expected after
> signing on to the traveller mailing list.
Welcome!
> In any event - I look forward to discussing issues relating to GURPS
> TRAVELLER. I finally broke down and purchased a copy of the deckplans for
> the BEOWULF. Eventually, once I finish working on my visual basic program,
> I should be able to automate the FAR TRADER rules enough to use them on my
> laptop. Currently, I am working on *learning* to use visual basic, so my
> progress is rather slow. I have an algorithm in place (I developed it on
> my excel spreadsheet no less <sigh>) that lets me mathematically discern
> what the distance from starting hex is to an entered ending hex location.
> Perhaps I can solve my programming problems sometime within the next week
> (with respect to the distance finder)...
It is more difficult than that, I am afraid. The distance that Far Trader uses
is not straight line but how far you need to travel to get there. Also,
Jim MacLean has modified the rules some since it was published.
Check out my site for my efforts and the updated rules.
http://www.ghg.net/tmixon/Trade
Have a great day.
Terry
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:48:02 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
"Wrong _USS Hornet_. Doolittle flew from CV-8 (also named
_Hornet_),which was subsequently sunk during the Guadalcanal campaign."
Ooops, mea culpa. The original got it during the Battle of Santa Cruz,
right? Guess that's what happens when you type faster than you're brain
works.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:00:11 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Greetings
Nice to meet ya'! There's plenty of fun & flames (i.e. heated debate) for
all, so come on in, have a seat, and grab a liquid of your choice ;)
Best,
Jesse
"Striving to Produce a Better (Illustrated) Traveller Universe" (tm)
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
p.s. Just so ya' know who I am, I did the cover on that deckplan book, as
well as a lot of other cgi in the G:T books.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of hal@buffnet.net
> Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 1:00 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Greetings
>
>
> Hello Folks,
> Good to see so many people on the list <grin>. I was literally taken
> aback when my email messages tripled in volume from what I expected after
> signing on to the traveller mailing list.
> In any event - I look forward to discussing issues relating to GURPS
> TRAVELLER. I finally broke down and purchased a copy of the deckplans for
> the BEOWULF. Eventually, once I finish working on my visual
> basic program,
> I should be able to automate the FAR TRADER rules enough to use them on my
> laptop. Currently, I am working on *learning* to use visual basic, so my
> progress is rather slow. I have an algorithm in place (I developed it on
> my excel spreadsheet no less <sigh>) that lets me mathematically discern
> what the distance from starting hex is to an entered ending hex location.
> Perhaps I can solve my programming problems sometime within the next week
> (with respect to the distance finder)...
>
> In any event, I look forward to starting up some form of
> TRAVELLER in the
> near future. We have a gaming group that meets every 2 weekends
> per month.
> I'm thinking of starting a TRAVELLER campaign on the alternate 2 weekends
> (don't tell my wife this, or I'm in the dog house sooner than I want to be
> <grin>)
>
> Gotta run...
>
> Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 22:00:01 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Science Fiction
>From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
> > From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
"You had paper tape? I used to *dream* of programming with paper tape.
When we wanted to solve a problem we had to build a big stone circle in the
middle of a plain and wait for the winter solistice."
"You think that's bad. We'd've been lucky to have the plain. We had to
get up at six in the morning and level the mountains with our bare hands to
get a plain to build in the middle of."
Luxury. You had it easy. We'd loved to have a mountain. We had to
get up half an hour before we went to bed, leave the shoebox, and LICK the
ocean away with our tongues, just to get enough dry land to build on. And
when we got home, our dad would kill us and cut our heads off.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:23:06 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
You know a L O N G time ago someone gave me that exact pamplet. i cant
remember where or who but they honest to god believed i was practicing
witchcraft by playing DnD and traveller 8P
I still laugh at that stupid thing 8P
I dont generally talk religeon because it can be a sensitive subject to
some.
I call myself a christian. but It seems to me that a religion that is
suppose to be based on forgiveness is not very forgiving. there are groups
of christians who are more bigoted than any i know. And if you dont worship
god the exact way they do your going to 'burn in hell" forever. I really
cant stand that.
I respect all religions and because of that I am considered poorly by the
paster of my last church in Illinois.
anyway time to depart form the subject.
That Link was Great! i laughed good at it. and yes that was no DnD game the
boys were out numbered by the girls 8P
- -----Original Message-----
From: DaveShayne [mailto:daveshayne@email.msn.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 1:09 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 06:24:27
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
>
> At 07:02 PM 2/6/2001 -0800, you wrote:
<snip>
> Chick, BTW, is also the man who gave us Dark Dungeons.. read the MST3K
> version here:
>
> http://www.fecundity.com/darkdung/setup.html
This is like way totally funny.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:34:08 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: in AOL mail
On Tue, 6 Feb 2001 21:30:21 -0500 (EST), GDWGAMES@aol.com (Loren Wiseman -
yes, _that_ Loren Wiseman) wrote
>> If you have installed AOL's version 6.0 software, and have trouble
>> with being unable to turn off HTML in your email, there is a solution.
>And you have to do this for each message? No way to set it as a default? This
>is not an optimum solution.
According to a large number of people on various sections of the internet,
the optimum solution is to install AOL 5.0 instead, and that AOL recommends
this if the HTML issues really are a problem.
\begin{rant}
I am not the only one to suspect that AOL did this to try to establish
_their_ way as the standard.
\end{rant}
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:38:10 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: CT fonts question
On Tue, 6 Feb 2001 21:30:21 -0500 (EST), "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
wrote:
I had written:
>>The original was called Optima; there are several clones of it with names
>>like Opta and Optim (and probably some others). A good 'official' clone of
>>it is Zapf Humanist BT
To which Paul replied:
>I'm not sure it even counts as a clone. Hermann Zapf designed Optima and, so
>far as I know, Zapf Humanist BT is just the version of it he licensed to
>Bitstream. Font companies have to play silly games with font names like this
>all the time, because of Linotype AG's anal trademark restrictions on them.
You're correct about HZ designing Optima, but ZHBT is not merely a
'license'; HZ actually redesigned the font for electronic use - Optima was
designed with lead type in mind; there are some _very_ subtle differences
needed to allow for good rendering in electronic use, and HZ incorporated
those into ZH (and ZHBT is merely a licensed version of ZH).
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:42:47 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: in AOL mail
On Wednesday, February 07, 2001 2:34 PM
Jeff Zeitlin said,
> I am not the only one to suspect that AOL did this to try to establish
> _their_ way as the standard.
Suspects?!!
Just like AOL hasn't had any significant requests from there users wanting
to use a standard mail package, or be able to view most newer HTML features.
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
==============
"The universe is not only stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we
*can* imagine." -Arthur C. Clarke
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:38:40 EST
From: FragginBastitch@aol.com
Subject: (no subject)
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:43:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Nice to here that they found some use for NAS Alameda
>after closing the base. I had the (mis)fortune to be homeported there
>during the latter half of the 80's.
[deleted]
I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience at NAS Alameda, but I really
appreciate your long post about it. It's full of details that are going
to get a little tech-level uplift and be deposited into my own Traveller
campaign.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:43:56 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: (no subject)
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
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Umm isnt this the ass who sent that nasty email to one of our list members
about his website?
- -----Original Message-----
From: FragginBastitch@aol.com [mailto:FragginBastitch@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 2:39 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: (no subject)
unsubscribe traveller
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<DIV><SPAN class=463004522-07022001>Umm
isnt this the ass who sent that nasty email to one of our list members about his
website?</SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left> size=2>-----Original Message-----
From: FragginBastitch@aol.com
[mailto:FragginBastitch@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001
2:39 PM
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subject)
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:45:29 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: Aakkk
I hope i did not some how unsubscribe myself by replying to that email.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:46:37 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: in AOL mail
I think i did could someone send me the instructions for reapplying to the
email list please at
wlane@asera.com
gads im so stupid
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:52:19 EST
From: FragginBastitch@aol.com
Subject: Re: (no subject)
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Yes,that was me. I should like to take this opportunity to officially and
humbly apologize for my remarks. No excuses. It was wrong and I admit it. I
do hereby apologize. TY.
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Yes,that was me. I should like to take this opportunity to officially and
humbly apologize for my remarks. No excuses. It was wrong and I admit it. I
do hereby apologize. TY.
- --part1_44.b2d69b0.27b32ba3_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:53:25 EST
From: FragginBastitch@aol.com
Subject: (no subject)
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Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:53:41 EST
From: FragginBastitch@aol.com
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:53:56 EST
From: FragginBastitch@aol.com
Subject: (no subject)
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 16:55:53 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: More landgrab info...
trentfs@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> William Lane wrote:
> > I am using CT rules for the creation of this world. I see some are
> >using other sets of rules or something because i see classifications i ahve
> >never seen
> >Ex class C/III starport
> GURPS:Traveller follows the GURPS:Space convention of labeling starports
> by roman numerals instead of letters. Whoever wrote the above was
> providing both sets of info; just like the folks who list both GURPS
> and 'standard' tech-levels (GTL 12 = TTL 15). Helpful, but by no means
> mandatory.
Personally, I use the standard Traveller A-X ports and TL's as opposed
to the GURPS I-V and TL's. I haven't, but I should (and will when I get
a chance) include a table of conversions on my website from Traveller
conventions to GURPS conventions. As you say not mandatory, but very
helpful. What should be mandatory (not really of course ;) is, at least,
letting the reader know which labeling convention you are using. When I
see TL13 it means something entirely different from what a GURPSite
reader would think it means.
As an aside, if anyone is itching to do some system detailing, but for
some reason you want to do it outside the Spinward Marches, I could use
some help on systems in Reavers Deep and/or my own Quental Main sector.
Eris
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:00:17 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: (no subject)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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The same. I did manage to send him correct directions while maintain
civility though.
I was sorely tempted to do otherwise......
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of William Lane
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 2:44 PM
To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
Subject: RE: (no subject)
Umm isnt this the ass who sent that nasty email to one of our list members
about his website?
-----Original Message-----
From: FragginBastitch@aol.com [mailto:FragginBastitch@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 2:39 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: (no subject)
unsubscribe traveller
- ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C09116.AED05210
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D095165922-07022001>size=3D2>The=20
same.&nbsp; I did manage to send him correct directions while maintain =
civility=20
though.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D095165922-07022001>
size=3D2></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D095165922-07022001>size=3D2>I was=20
sorely tempted to do otherwise......</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D095165922-07022001>
size=3D2></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D095165922-07022001>
size=3D2>Jesse</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>

"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a =
little=20
temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin =
Franklin,=20
Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
&nbsp;

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=3Dltr=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----
From:=20
owner-traveller@lists.ient.com =
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On=20
Behalf Of William Lane
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, =
2001 2:44=20
PM
To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
Subject: RE: (no =
subject)
</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D463004522-07022001>color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Umm=20
isnt this the ass who sent that nasty email to one of our list members =
about=20
his website?</SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----
From: =
FragginBastitch@aol.com=20
[mailto:FragginBastitch@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February =
07,=20
2001 2:39 PM
To: =
traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: (no=20
subject)
</DIV>lang=3D0=20
face=3D"Arial Rounded MT Bold" size=3D2 =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">unsubscribe=20
traveller </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>
- ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C09116.AED05210--
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:00:16 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: Unsubscibe information
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0027_01C09116.AE8A2150
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Try this instead:
<begin paste from Welcome e-mail>
Welcome to the traveller mailing list!
Please save this message for future reference. Thank you.
If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list,
you can send mail to <majordomo@lists.ient.com> with the following
command in the body of your email message:
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or from another account, besides yourname@yourisp.com:
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<end paste>
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of FragginBastitch@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 2:39 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: (no subject)
unsubscribe traveller
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<HEAD>
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charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D208445322-07022001>size=3D2>Try=20
this instead:</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D208445322-07022001>
size=3D2></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D208445322-07022001>
size=3D2>&lt;begin paste from Welcome e-mail&gt;</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D208445322-07022001>

Welcome to the traveller mailing list!

Please save this message for future reference. Thank=20
you.

If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing=20
list,

you can send mail to &lt;majordomo@lists.ient.com&gt; =
with the=20
following

command in the body of your email message:

unsubscribe traveller

or from another account, besides&nbsp;<SPAN=20
class=3D208445322-07022001><A=20
href=3D"mailto:yourname@yourisp.com">yourname@yourisp.com</SPAN>:</FO=
NT>

unsubscribe traveller <SPAN =
class=3D208445322-07022001><A=20
href=3D"mailto:yourothername@yourotherisp.com">yourothername@yourotherisp=
.com</SPAN>

</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN=20
class=3D208445322-07022001>&lt;end paste&gt;</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D208445322-07022001>
size=3D2>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----
From:=20
owner-traveller@lists.ient.com =
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On=20
Behalf Of FragginBastitch@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, =
February 07,=20
2001 2:39 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: =
(no=20
subject)
</DIV>lang=3D0=20
face=3D"Arial Rounded MT Bold" size=3D2 =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">unsubscribe=20
traveller </BLOCKQUOTE>
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3609
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3610
Date: | 2/7/01 4:21:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 7 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3610
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: (no subject)
Re: More landgrab info...
Re: More landgrab info...
How to Unsubscribe
Re: Science Fiction
Re: Aakkk
(no subject) x 4
Re: in AOL mail
Re: More landgrab info...
Re: More landgrab info...
Re: More landgrab info...
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: More landgrab info...
RE: Anti-RPG
RE: Anti-RPG(long)
What does "OBTrav:" mean?
Re: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
Black Curtain
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: Anti-RPG
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:59:13 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: (no subject)
This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.
- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C09159.970D9320
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Might try putting the unsubscribe in the subject line. also at least you got
the guts to admit you were wrong. That is a point in your favor. Hasta
- -----Original Message-----
From: FragginBastitch@aol.com [mailto:FragginBastitch@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 2:52 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: (no subject)
Yes,that was me. I should like to take this opportunity to officially and
humbly apologize for my remarks. No excuses. It was wrong and I admit it. I
do hereby apologize. TY.
- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C09159.970D9320
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charset="iso-8859-1"
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HEAD>
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1">
<META content="MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=GENERATOR></HEAD>
<DIV><SPAN class=404305922-07022001>Might
try putting the unsubscribe in the subject line. also at least you got the guts
to admit you were wrong. That is a point in your favor.
Hasta</SPAN></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left> size=2>-----Original Message-----
From: FragginBastitch@aol.com
[mailto:FragginBastitch@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001
2:52 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: (no
subject)
</DIV> face="Arial Rounded MT Bold" size=2 FAMILY="SANSSERIF">Yes,that was me. I
should like to take this opportunity to officially and
humbly apologize
for my remarks. No excuses. It was wrong and I admit it. I
do hereby
apologize. TY. </BLOCKQUOTE>
- ------_=_NextPart_001_01C09159.970D9320--
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:04:47 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: More landgrab info...
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>
> Hello Folks,
> Since I am a latecomer to this thread, what is the landgrab?
Back in March 2000, during an unusually annoying flame-fest, TML Great
Old One Doug Berry (yes the Doug Berry who wrote GT: Ground Forces)
suggested that:
**begin quote**
Anyone interested takes a world in the Spinward Marches and details the
hell out of it. First In would be preferred, but any of the earlier
systems
will be acceptable. climate, Culture, Ecosystems, Government, odd laws,
religions, notable events for 1100-1120, linguistic notes.. everything
to
make each world a living experience.
**end quote**
Does that help?
You can find links to several Landgrab projects at:
http://www.downport.com/landgrab/index.html
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:01:11 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: More landgrab info...
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Hello Folks,
> Since I am a latecomer to this thread, what is the landgrab?
The one sentence version...Pick a star system, detail the heck out of
it, and post it on the web! <g>
Specifically, the suggestion was to stake a claim to a system in the
Spinward Marches and use Book 2, Book 6, MT, WBH, WTH, and/or First In
to detail. You could do as much, or as little, as you chose and there
wasn't a time that you had to be finished. The TML would serve as a
sounding board, clearing house and advisory committee, and in return we
would get a much richer playground to run our games in.
Eris
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:06:59 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: How to Unsubscribe
The easiest way to unsubscribe to the TML is to follow the TML link from
this URL:
http://www.travellercentral.com/
Thanks to Tod Glenn for providing this service (along with the rest of
his excellent site)!
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:05:12 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Science Fiction
> Luxury. You had it easy. We'd loved to have a mountain. We had to
> get up half an hour before we went to bed, leave the shoebox, and LICK the
> ocean away with our tongues, just to get enough dry land to build on. And
> when we got home, our dad would kill us and cut our heads off.
Yeah, and you thell that to kids nowadays and they don't believe you.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:09:14 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Aakkk
William Lane wrote:
>
> I hope i did not some how unsubscribe myself by replying to that email.
Apparently not.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:06:36 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: (no subject) x 4
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C09117.90B85A10
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charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Just gets better & better, doesn't it? ROFLMAO!!!!!
Jesse
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of FragginBastitch@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 2:54 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: (no subject)
unsubscribe traveller
- ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C09117.90B85A10
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Dus-ascii">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4522.1800" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D832270323-07022001>size=3D2>Just=20
gets better &amp; better, doesn't it?&nbsp; =
ROFLMAO!!!!!</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D832270323-07022001>
size=3D2>Jesse</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px =
solid">
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>face=3DTahoma=20
size=3D2>-----Original Message-----
From:=20
owner-traveller@lists.ient.com =
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On=20
Behalf Of FragginBastitch@aol.com
Sent: Wednesday, =
February 07,=20
2001 2:54 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: =
(no=20
subject)
</DIV>lang=3D0=20
face=3D"Arial Rounded MT Bold" size=3D2 =
FAMILY=3D"SANSSERIF">unsubscribe=20
traveller </BLOCKQUOTE>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0035_01C09117.90B85A10--
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:07:01 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: in AOL mail
There is a form on my website. go to http://www.travellercentral.com and
click on TML in the nav bar.
Tod
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "William Lane" <wlane@Asera.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 2:46 PM
Subject: RE: in AOL mail
> I think i did could someone send me the instructions for reapplying to the
> email list please at
>
> wlane@asera.com
>
> gads im so stupid
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:06:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: More landgrab info...
Eris Reddoch writes:
> Personally, I use the standard Traveller A-X ports and TL's as opposed
> to the GURPS I-V and TL's. I haven't, but I should (and will when I get
> a chance) include a table of conversions on my website from Traveller
> conventions to GURPS conventions. As you say not mandatory, but very
> helpful. What should be mandatory (not really of course ;) is, at least,
> letting the reader know which labeling convention you are using. When I
> see TL13 it means something entirely different from what a GURPSite
> reader would think it means.
Heh. I use TL-D for that, if I want to use Traveller TLs. The differences
between TTL 0-9 and GTL 0-9 are rarely interesting in any case.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:10:38 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: More landgrab info...
> Back in March 2000, during an unusually annoying flame-fest, TML Great
> Old One Doug Berry (yes the Doug Berry who wrote GT: Ground Forces)
> suggested that:
>
Anyone heard from Doug recently? I posted the Heya details on
http://www.spinwardmarches.com and wanted his OK/comments.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:15:33 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: More landgrab info...
Tod Glenn wrote:
>
<<snip>>
>
> Anyone heard from Doug recently? I posted the Heya details on
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com and wanted his OK/comments.
He posted to the TML this morning....
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:14:07 -0800 (PST)
From: healyzh@aracnet.com
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
> > Thank you for posting the links. What a wonderful web-site! I'd
> > encourage everyone to approach the web-site with an open mind instead
> > of some knee-jerk reaction! Sure the first activelly attacks our
> > hobby, but both make very valid points.
>
> LIke what? I'm honestly curious. I make my living in the RPG
> industry and saw nothing resembling truth in anything on that page.
> Perhaps you were joking?
>
> -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
Actually the fact that you make your living in the RPG industry indicates
you might be a little to close to the subject :^) BTW, I've written for
Empire of the Petal Throne, which as a whole makes D&D look down right
wholesome in most cases. As for making my living, I make it in the computer
industry.
While some of the facts in the RPG article seem to be more than a little
far-fetched (actually some sound like downright lies, calculated to invoke
outrage, to me personally) I think it makes some very valid points. I've
become more than a little concerned with the effects of RPG's, CCG's, and
*Computers* on impressionable minds.
Has the article convinced me that RPG's are evil, that they should be
banned, and I should burn my collection of several 100 RPG books? No.
However, I do think that parents should keep a watchful eye on thier
childrens gaming habits, because I do believe there are real dangers for
certain types of personalities, in gaming and in computers. Personally I
think that the parents should be responsible for thier children and for
themselves.
Why do I think there are real dangers? Consider this, at any Gaming
Convention, Sci-Fi Convention, or Computer Swapmeet, have you ever noticed how
there seem to be a far higher percentage of people with a very weak grasp on
reality than you would normally find? There also seem to be a higher
concentration of people that don't seem to know what soap and water is for.
Yes, I'm aware that most of the people there are normal well adjusted
people, I'm just pointing out that these things seem to draw out those that
aren't. Oh, and in all honesty since my collection of RPG books is around
500 items (including over 200 Traveller items), I'm most likely in the
non-well adjusted catagory, but then I've come to realize in the last couple
years that I've a major problem with collecting.
As for the Dinosaur article, consider this, evolutionism is a Religion! Why
is it that Evolutionism can be taught in schools, and not Creationism? The
teaching of Evolutionism in schools is in fact a form of Religous
Persecution in that it encourages Religous intollerance.
Take some time, read through some of the material on the site with an open
mind (it seems most here have failed to do that). You might find it makes a
lot of sense. I for one really like the poster they're offering and am
tempted to order one.
Remember all I'm asking is that you consider what I'm saying with an open
mind. Challenge that which you "know" to be true.
Zane
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 18:16:37 -0500
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: More landgrab info...
Tod Glenn wrote:
>Anyone heard from Doug recently? I posted the Heya details on
>http://www.spinwardmarches.com and wanted his OK/comments.
Wasn't it Doug who just posted the link to the MST3K'd 'Dark Dungeons' earlier today?
Trent
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:40:22 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
- -----Original Message-----
From: healyzh@aracnet.com [mailto:healyzh@aracnet.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 10:14 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
While some of the facts in the RPG article seem to be more than a little
far-fetched (actually some sound like downright lies, calculated to
invoke
outrage, to me personally) I think it makes some very valid points.
I've
become more than a little concerned with the effects of RPG's, CCG's,
and
*Computers* on impressionable minds.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
These same impressionable minds can be affected by TV, radio. They can
fall prey to cults of any sort like that 'Waco' fella or even
fundamentalist christians. They can fall prey to rampant commercialism,
gambling or peer pressure.
But you are right, it is up to the parents to ensure that the child is
given an education that ensures that these people will not be victims,
but can make their own informed choices, and know the bounds between
reality and fantasy.
As for the Dinosaur article, consider this, evolutionism is a Religion!
Why
is it that Evolutionism can be taught in schools, and not Creationism?
The
teaching of Evolutionism in schools is in fact a form of Religous
Persecution in that it encourages Religous intollerance.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hmmmm.... the theory of evolution has been developed through the study
of science. Science is not a religion, it is a methodolgy used to
attempt to discover facts. Most of the credible evidence supports the
case for evolution. There is no credible evidence for the case for
Creationism.
Also note that creationism is not about proving the case for creation,
that is taken as a fact. Instead creationism seems to be about
presenting all the problems in modern science as proof that;
a. Physics is flawed
b. Geology is flawed
c. Astronomy is flawed
d. Biology is flawed
And since science is flawed, it cannot be believed. If science cannot be
believed, then the world was create as according to the bible. (Replace
'bible' with the name of any other holy book , and the arguement can
also be used to show that any religion may have a point!)
As to religious interferance, that is truly a thorny issue, becuase one
persons beleifs are guaranteed to interfere with anothers. I can't
really comment on it, except to say that I am happy to accept any
religion's existance as long as
a. It doesn't prey on the weak
b. It genuinely goes out of its way to provide a beneficial service
c. It does not hurt or harm anyone physically, emotionally or
financially
d. It does not expect me or my family to worship it.
OBTrav: (Ok, after that I had better have an OBTrav)
THe players are hired by a local parents group to teach their children a
subject that is conterversial on the world. There exist a small group
violenty opposed to these teachings. The players need to find a way to
continue these lessons without causing harm to anyone in the community.
This may be difficult when the materials they try to teach are burned by
the fanatics, or some of the students, or even the players themselves,
become the victims of physical violence. At some stage the 'Authorities'
may intervene, on which side should be determined by the referee.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:56:24 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG(long)
>While some of the facts in the RPG article seem to be more than a little
>far-fetched (actually some sound like downright lies, calculated to invoke
>outrage, to me personally) I think it makes some very valid points. I've
>become more than a little concerned with the effects of RPG's, CCG's, and
>*Computers* on impressionable minds.
Most of that is written in such a way as to outrage christians to treat
anyone who RPs as if they are a "witch". what is a "witch". according to
them it is someone tied into satanic ritual. Now i dont know anything about
real witchs but i believe they are actually a pacifistic religion. at least
what i remember from the one Wicca i meet once. So the doctrine he (in that
booklet) espouses is the "Oh your not like me so you must be Satanic".
Anything can be an impression on a young mind. the things my Wife must face
because she was raised in an extremly abusive household still effect here.
she has litteral flashback episodes like you see war verterans face. Also
you should add Movies, Comic Books, and TV to your list. all of these are
and have gotten extremly graphic in the last 20 or so years. those also have
an impression on young minds.
>However, I do think that parents should keep a watchful eye on thier
>childrens gaming habits, because I do believe there are real dangers for
>certain types of personalities, in gaming and in computers. Personally I
>think that the parents should be responsible for thier children and for
>themselves.
Absolutly. Parents are responsable for their children and raising them.
>Why do I think there are real dangers? Consider this, at any Gaming
>Convention, Sci-Fi Convention, or Computer Swapmeet, have you ever noticed
how
>there seem to be a far higher percentage of people with a very weak grasp
on
>reality than you would normally find?
I may sound bad but yes you are right i ahve meet a few of the more Out
there people at these conventions. but you know they are everywhere not just
in Sci-Fi. lets See the KKK is pretty out there. To think that there is some
thing about a persons skin that makes him sub-human is pretty out there.
I have a cousin who is in the KKK. he firmly believes that when they show
the 10 commandments on tv every easter it is some plot by the jewish
community to try and Subvert the good white christians. never occured to him
that pass over is around the same time.
>As for the Dinosaur article, consider this, evolutionism is a Religion!
Why
>is it that Evolutionism can be taught in schools, and not Creationism?
i can answer that Evolitionism is a scientific endevour. it should be taught
in schools. Creationism is a religious concept it should be taught in
church.
School is not a place for religion. it is a place for teachers to teach you
how to read, do math and learn the basics of the universe in a hard strait
forward way. they should learn all those things pertinate to science there.
Physics, Geology, Geography, and history.
religious persuits and training should be the perview of a church and the
pastor there to teach those things about faith and belief in a diety.
>The
>teaching of Evolutionism in schools is in fact a form of Religous
>Persecution in that it encourages Religous intollerance.
I disagree totally and ill tell you why. this country was founded by
Puritans who were persicuted in england to they came to the New World to
escape that persicution. Now here we are hundreds of years later in the
country they founded. And we wish to Force Judiea/Christian religious
doctron down the throats of children from familys who are not christian or
jewish but who must attend public school. the same goes with our public
buildings. How can a muslum or a wicca or anyone else who is of any religion
other than christian feel they ahve a stake in this country or even a fair
chance if they are forced to attend a school that forces them to hear our
religios retoric or go to court with christian parafinalia adorning the
walls?
The answer is they cant.
So here we are hundreds of years later doing the exact same thing to people
that forced our fore fathers to flee england. Religious Endevours should be
taught in the church not in Public Institutions. Especially not ina country
that is suppose to allow freedom of religion.
>Remember all I'm asking is that you consider what I'm saying with an open
>mind. Challenge that which you "know" to be true.
I have an open mind and tend to listen to all points of view. Mine views are
not always right and i can usually learn something from most things. but i
have found that some of the most religious people refuse to acknoledge
anything other than what they belief. they also usually ahve the least
tolerance of others. at least in my experiance.
The thing is what is it about DnD and Role Playing that christians hate? I
never understood this. this sounds really out there but It always seemed
that is was the fact that it allowed you to dream. to say what if. because
if you start dreaming and saying what if you might start questioning things
as they are laid out in the bible.
Youll look at the first few lines of genisis and say hmm maybe god explain
Evalution to moses and because moses could not understand he put it into
pariable.
God said Let there be light and there was. Wow you know Stellar nebulas are
very bright.
on the second day god made the heaven and earth. Wow you know the sun and
planets could ahve formed in that nebula.
on the 3rd day....
to me i think the real conservitive christians should be Looking at what
THEY know to be true and re evaluating it a bit.
anyway i know this is going to start a flame war. i hate talking about
religion usually upsets someone.
Hasta
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 15:59:37 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
I keep seeing this and wonder what it means. thanks in advance
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 18:11:38 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
William Lane wrote:
>
> I keep seeing this and wonder what it means. thanks in advance
Obligatory Traveller Reference. It signals the intent to tack some
Traveller relevance onto an otherwise offtopic post.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:12:15 -0800
From: "Jeffrey Yin" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Black Curtain
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C09120.BC977F40
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am confused. Is the only reason some people believe the Black Curtain =
may be something "supernatural" is due to the paragraph in Survival =
Margin?
Jeffrey Yin
- ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C09120.BC977F40
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<DIV>
<DIV>I am confused. Is the only reason some =
people=20
believe the Black Curtain may be something "supernatural" is due to the=20
paragraph in Survival Margin?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jeffrey =
Yin</DIV></DIV>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C09120.BC977F40--
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:28:30 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
> From: Dean Jones
> I wonder if anyone's thought of writing an RPG setting where all of these
> ideas are true...maybe we should suggest GURPS Frank Chick to SJ? :)
Not a bad idea. : )
Actually what I was thinking was using some of his delusions as a basis for
a D&D setting: the world really was "recently" created, dinosaurs are
still around, and there are a whole bunch of spirits hanging about being
gods. Of course, several of these spirits all (falsely) claim to be the
One True God, and their worshippers busily bother each other about it. For
some of this stuff, lift bits of Chick's attacks on Islam, the Masons and
so on. (Some actual _research_ on these topics would help too, of
course...). Obviously you would need to file off all the serial numbers.
Getting serious-ish for a moment: the thing about this site that really
bugged me was the anti-Arab racism in the anti-Islamic section. This
crossed the line between insane and evil.
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:18:41 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:
> While some of the facts in the RPG article seem to be more than a little
> far-fetched (actually some sound like downright lies, calculated to invoke
> outrage, to me personally) I think it makes some very valid points. I've
> become more than a little concerned with the effects of RPG's, CCG's, and
> *Computers* on impressionable minds.
Or the WWF, or Mighty Mouse and Roadrunner cartoons, or MAD Magazine, or
Bible Study, for that matter...
Computers are not inherently evil...do you think that writing a report
in MS Word somehow corrupts the young mind? (ok, ok, you got me
there...amend that to a non-MS program ;-)
Is there inappropriate stuff on the _internet_ (which is different from
Computers) for little kids? Of course there is.
Are there inappropriate computer *games* for little kids? Of course
there are.
Do kids that evince a taste for computer programming get treated as
outcasts? Damn straight, all those god-fearing regular kids treat them,
generally, like social paraiahs to be avoided like the plague.
America is possibly the only country in the world where learning is not
venerated but treated as something to be avoided. God forbid your kid
turn into a *nerd*!! Eeeeewwww!
No wonder we have to fight these same stupid battles over and over and
over again!
> Has the article convinced me that RPG's are evil, that they should be
> banned, and I should burn my collection of several 100 RPG books? No.
> However, I do think that parents should keep a watchful eye on thier
> childrens gaming habits, because I do believe there are real dangers for
> certain types of personalities, in gaming and in computers. Personally I
> think that the parents should be responsible for thier children and for
> themselves.
People with personalites like that are going to obsess over _something_,
be it D&D, Magic the Gathering, football, WWF...something.
These are the people who populate cults world-wide, and D&D doesn't have
a _damned_ thing to do with it.
>
>
> Why do I think there are real dangers? Consider this, at any Gaming
> Convention, Sci-Fi Convention, or Computer Swapmeet, have you ever noticed how
> there seem to be a far higher percentage of people with a very weak grasp on
> reality than you would normally find? There also seem to be a higher
> concentration of people that don't seem to know what soap and water is for.
Oh, puleeze! No more so than any other large gathering of people.
I would think that the grasp on reality bit is a lot lower at the
average Billy Graham revival than at most SF Conventions. These are
peple who think that the preacher smacking them on the face will cure
them of cancer.
These are the people who send in money to the teevee preachers who
announce public prayers to 'heal their Pontiacs!' (True story, I heard
it myself on a radio evangelist show.
Hell, the entire Republican Convention was given over to the completely
looney-tunes idea that the Republicans *like* everybody! <gdr>
> As for the Dinosaur article, consider this, evolutionism is a Religion! Why
> is it that Evolutionism can be taught in schools, and not Creationism? The
> teaching of Evolutionism in schools is in fact a form of Religous
> Persecution in that it encourages Religous intollerance.
Good try, but BZZZT Thank you for playing the Creationist Twist The
Logic Game.
Creationism is not a theory but explicitly Christian theology
masquerading as science.
It is a way to sneak Christian dogma into the schools. Notice that
little thought is given to _other_ religion's Creation Myths.
The Bhagavadgita is rarely cited by creationists. Be kind of a royal
bitch to find out that the world really is floating in a bowl of water
supported by four elephants, standing on the back of a turtle.
Evolution is not a religion, but a tested (and proven) scientific
theory. If you choose not to believe that good for you, but it's not
going to change what is and isn't provably true.
If you choose to believe that Science is a religion, I pity you for your
profound ignorance.
You may in fact choose to not believe in gravity, go right ahead, jump
off the roof.
You may, in fact choose not to believe that the Earth is over 4 billion
years old. Doesn't make much of a difference to the rocks.
This, Zane, is where most negative impressions of Christians comes forth.
"By not allowing me to persecute others you're persecuting me!"
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3610
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3611
Date: | 2/7/01 6:49:20 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 7 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3611
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3610
Re: Anti-RPG
re: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
Re: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Re: Anti-RPG(long)
Re: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
Re: Landgrab 876-574/Five Sisters (long)
Re: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
Government Code questions
Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
RE: How to unsubscribe
Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
RE:
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: 52 million ton hull!
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
Re: Anti-RPG(long)
Re: Government Code questions
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:41:16 -0500
From: "John Watts" <jwatts@catt.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3610
> Why do I think there are real dangers? Consider this, at any Gaming
> Convention, Sci-Fi Convention, or Computer Swapmeet, have you ever noticed
how
> there seem to be a far higher percentage of people with a very weak grasp
on
> reality than you would normally find? There also seem to be a higher
> concentration of people that don't seem to know what soap and water is
for.
Offhand, I'd say as many people are that way as I've seen at any major
convention. Ever been to a political convention? Ever been to a Shriner's
convention? Ever been to an electrician's trade show?
I've been to all three and guess what...... its the same TYPES of people,
just with a different interest at heart.
I'll never forget a few years back, I attended a SF con that was in a hotel
across the street from a Promise Keepers meeting. It was truly amazing.....
It was the exact same thing, the exact types of people, just a different
interest.
It was like..... GodCon.
John Watts
Trav GM since 85
"Hokey Religions and Ancient Weapons are no match for a Good Blaster"
-H. Solo, respected Solomani Philosopher
IMTU-UWP John Watts 0608 C209389-8 N hi-- as+ va+ so+++ da+ 223
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 00:43 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
In-Reply-To: <3A81D4C8.8993.626875@localhost>
Greetings dear hearts.
Back in 1984, I was collared during a UK roleplaying convention (by the
TSR staff, in the days when such existed!) and made to talk to a radio
reporter on this. She asked if I thought that playing RPGs could lead
people "to believe in the existence of the Devil."
The look on her face when I pointed out that Christians believe in the
EXISTENCE of the Devil was, well, quite a sight :-)
Especially when supported by chapter and verse from the Bible (no copy
present!) and the further comment that accepting the existence of
someone and worshipping them were two separate things.
Hmmm... who told TSR I was a preacher...
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:47:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
>From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
>I keep seeing this and wonder what it means. thanks in advance
It's just an abbreviation for "obiter Traveller."
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 16:51:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>Obligatory Traveller Reference. It signals the intent to
Come on, John, for the founder of a company with a Latin name:
>AuricTech Shipyards
you really should be more sensitive to the antecedents of our own
language.
Or, as Catullus is known to have remarked, semper ubi sub ubi!
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices.
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:07:46 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Okay, how about we all sit on our hands for a few minutes and think this
one through. This is not only *way* off topic, but potentially as explosive as
the dreaded "Gun Control". May I humbly suggest we drop this.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:14:59 -0800 (PST)
From: healyzh@aracnet.com
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG(long)
> Anything can be an impression on a young mind. the things my Wife must face
> because she was raised in an extremly abusive household still effect here.
> she has litteral flashback episodes like you see war verterans face. Also
> you should add Movies, Comic Books, and TV to your list. all of these are
> and have gotten extremly graphic in the last 20 or so years. those also have
> an impression on young minds.
You've a very valid point, and don't leave out the influence of Music.
Actually my wife found out about a fascinating study on the influence of
Music on peoples study habits. Basically your children should start
listening to Classical music before they're even born, and continue on
listening to it.
> i can answer that Evolitionism is a scientific endevour. it should be taught
> in schools. Creationism is a religious concept it should be taught in
> church.
Both Evolutionism and Creationism are a matter of faith. The Creationist
has faith that, that which thier religious text teach is correct (remember,
not only Christions are Creationists). The Evolutionist has faith that,
that which man teaches is correct. Who can say that in one or both cases
Satan isn't misleading them?
> buildings. How can a muslum or a wicca or anyone else who is of any religion
> other than christian feel they ahve a stake in this country or even a fair
> chance if they are forced to attend a school that forces them to hear our
> religios retoric or go to court with christian parafinalia adorning the
> walls?
>
> The answer is they cant.
Strange, what I'm seeing is what was once a Christian nation, where now
Christians are ridiculed and in some cases persecuted. But then I also see
a Nation where everyone is supposed to be equal, yet isn't.
> anyway i know this is going to start a flame war. i hate talking about
> religion usually upsets someone.
Actually it's been far more peaceful and calm than I would expect.
Zane
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 19:39:03 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
Glenn Goffin wrote:
>
<<snip>>
>
> Or, as Catullus is known to have remarked, semper ubi sub ubi!
And it should be clean, in case you're in an accident.... ;-)
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 02:43:08 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Landgrab 876-574/Five Sisters (long)
Michael McKeown writes:
> The IISS first surveyed the system 72 years ago in 1048 as part of the
>Second Survey.
This really isn't very likely. The canonical claim that Andor and Candory wasn't
discovered until 802[*] to the contrary notwithstanding, the First Survey is the
latest possible time that all of Five Sisters would be surveyed, and a date late
in the 1st Century is quite possible (_The Traveller Book_, p. 149 states that
the first Imperial surveys of the Spinward Marches were completed by the year
100). If for some strange reason the first Survey missed covering subsector M
(even though we know for a fact that it did cover subsector N), one would
suppose that a survey would've been made either before or shortly after it was
made an Imperial District in 602. And if that somehow didn't happen, the special
effort to colonize Five Sisters mandated by Emperor Paulo in 740 would seem to
be a very likely occasion for getting it done.
[*] These kind of dates goes back to the very early days of Traveller when the
Traveller Universe was in its infancy. They are on a par with the claim that
Ruie (one parsec from Regina) was a lost colony discovered in 1074...
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 19:49:19 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
Glenn Goffin wrote:
>
> >From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
> >I keep seeing this and wonder what it means. thanks in advance
>
> It's just an abbreviation for "obiter Traveller."
From the Lewis & Short online Latin Dictionary:
ob-iter, adv., on the way, in going or passing along (except in Laber.,
not anteAug.; cf. Charis. 187 P. Augustus found fault with Tiberius for
using per viam instead of obiter, Charis. l. l.).
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/resolveform?lang=Latin
Which is remarkably similar (in gist) to my definition of ObTrav.
Having spent zero days of my life in formal Latin training, this
surprises me greatly.
Linguistic twists never cease to amuse me. (Then again, I have studied
three foreign languages so far, of which only the most recently-studied
[Spanish] has an alphabet that resembles our Latin-based English
alphabet.)
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:58:13 -0800
From: "Colin Paddock" <su_liam@ordata.com>
Subject: Government Code questions
On the subject of government codes would the Roman Republic have been a
4.Representative Democracy(I have problems with this) or a 3 or C oligarchy.
Another question I have is about the difference between
Self-perpetuating Oligarchies and Charismatic Oligarchies as well as between
Charismatic and Non-charismatic dictatorships. If a charismatic government
continues to exist after its popular initial leader(s) have passed on does
it become self-perpetuating? And if a self-perpetuating government comes
into the hands of a charismatic leader or leaders does it become charismatic
or does the self-perpetuating label refer to governments that have shown the
stability to survive beyond their founders? In the latter case charimatic
states would seem to be by nature young and short-lived because they either
collapse after the charismatic leadership leaves or become non-charismatic.
The self-perpetuating forms could be either young governments that took
power by force or by appealing to an influential minority or charismatic
states that have survived.
Sorry if this doesn't make much sense. I really am having a hard time
formulating these questions.
- ---------------
And so it went.
It was not called the Net of a Million Lies for nothing.
Vernor Vinge, A Fire Upon the Deep
- ---------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 19:57:37 -0600
From: "James Jensen" <cheeb0@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
Zane, I'm with you. Evolution *is* a religion. It requires you to believe
something to be true that is not proven. I'm not against it being taught in
schools per se, but I believe that it should be taught as the *theory* that
it is. A *THEORY* folks!
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind or convert them, but I cannot let
this just pass by without putting in my Cr0.02.
Let's start this argument on a fairly inarguable ground: evolution is
unproven. Some of you may disagree, but let me ask you this: were *you*
there when it happened? In this case, all of the evidence in the world is
just circumstantial without a witness.
Now evolution fits neatly into the title of "Theory". Now we shall proceed
to compare it with the Theory of Relativity, another unproven idea (nobody's
been up to 0.99c to test it, and the authenticity of tests with hydrogen
atoms can be easily debated).
Theory of Relativity
- ----------------------------------
Found on the previously studied principle that the speed of light thru a
vacuum is constant.
Meant to reconcile older ideas of the laws of physics with newer
discoveries.
Meant to disprove the existence of ether.
Has been so far impossible to prove due to the limitations of today's
tehcnology.
Theory of Evolution
- ---------------------------------------
Founded on the fact that there are similarities between humans and apes.
Meant to open up to possibility that humans could have come about without a
Divine Being.
Meant to disprove the existence of God.
Has been so far impossible to prove because it has not been observed.(!)
Now, here are some things that I have heard from scientists on PAX's
Encounters With the Unexplained, on the episode about Adam & Eve (for more
detailed and accurate information, I recommended getting the tape of this
one):
* There has been uncovered evidence that can only be reconciled if man once
aged more slowly.
* It has been proven that we could have come from a single set of parents,
and recent tests with genetics and the rate of mutation within a certain
stuff (name not remembered) placed the first woman at 6,000 years ago (too
soon for evolution).
Now for some odd tidbits:
* My grandfather once found fossils on a large mountain in Las Vegas. They
were sea creatures.
* Given the ability to create matter from energy through the creation of
antimatter, the Big Bang becomes possible. But it still begs the question:
why didn't the matter and antimatter wipe themselves out soon after
formation?
* Creationism doesn't require the breaking of physical laws to have
happened. It's my belief that the biblical miracles, such as the bread
falling from heaven, are in fact God commanding physical laws to start
working for a certain purpose, and that they work then like they always do,
save that they were sparked into action for these specific purposes. As for
the apparent changing of physical laws with the appearance of the rainbow
after the flood: it is my belief that it had never rained before then, and
that water had come from the ground before the Flood.
Anyway, that's what I have to say, whether the rest of you like it or not.
Evolution's not a fact, it's a theory. And if schools would teach it as
such, rather than a fact, then that's ok with me.
- -J. Jensen
Administrator of the Milieu: 0 Aid Society
http://members.nbci.com/cheebzero/trav_index.htm
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:00:42 -0800
From: "A. O'Mary" <omary@my-deja.com>
Subject: RE: How to unsubscribe
>
>Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:06:59 -0600
>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: How to Unsubscribe
>
>The easiest way to unsubscribe to the TML is to follow the TML link from
>this URL:
>
>http://www.travellercentral.com/
>
>Thanks to Tod Glenn for providing this service (along with the rest of
>his excellent site)!
And now I have a related question. I have an e-mail addy that was changed by the mail server. The old addy, under which I subscribed to the TML, still forwards to my account. And I can't seem to unsubscribe, since the addys are different. I've tried all the methods listed for unsubbing an account (including requests to the list administrator) but it never works. My choices are getting one copy of the TML and being unable to post, or getting two copies and watching my mailbox fill up. Any ideas?
ALO
- ------------------------------------------------------------
- --== Sent via Deja.com ==--
http://www.deja.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:07:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
James Jensen writes:
> Zane, I'm with you. Evolution *is* a religion. It requires you to believe
> something to be true that is not proven. I'm not against it being taught in
> schools per se, but I believe that it should be taught as the *theory*
> that it is. A *THEORY* folks!
Actually, evolution _is_ proven. It's natural selection that is the theory.
In any case, this is something of a misunderstanding of what a scientific
theory is, creationism isn't even a scientific theory, because it has no
predictive value and cannot be tested.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:10:07 -0800
From: "A. O'Mary" <omary@my-deja.com>
Subject: RE:
>
>Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 23:00:13 -0500
>From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
>Subject: Re: MT starship combat
>
>At 06:14 PM 2/5/01 -0800, you wrote:
>>I ran a session of MT starship combat recently and need some clarification
>>of the rules. Of course I came to the TML..
>>I applied the MT errata to my books but one problem doesn't seem to have
>>been addressed.
>>If I read the procedure correctly, to penetrate a defense (screen, sand,
>>etc) is a task: Difficult, confrontation, (+ attacker's computer#,
>>-(defender's comp# + value from table)
>>The tables appear to be arranged with the attacking weapon factor (rows)
>>vs defending screen value (columns). The problem is the values seem wrong.
>>A factor 'A' laser battery has a bigger negative modifier for penetration
>>than a factor '1' laser battery, vs the same sandcaster factor. It makes
>>sense if you *add* the table's value to the 2d6 roll instead of
>>subtracting it.
>
>Hi Art!
>
>Long time no hear!
>
>IIRC, the number on the chart is the number you must roll above, with all
>modifiers added to the number on the chart, to hit and penetrate.
>
>Hope this helps!
>
>Kurt Feltenberger
>kurt@blazenet.net
Hiya, Kurt
I have to disagree. In the first place the number from the chart is listed as being a DM (next to the last page of the Ref's Manual). Secondly, that has the same problem as using the number as a negative modifier - the higher the weapon factor the more difficult it becomes to penetrate a given defense. It should become *easier* as your weapon factor becomes greater.
The combat was... well... short and deadly. Amazing how quickly those crits add up.
ALO
- ------------------------------------------------------------
- --== Sent via Deja.com ==--
http://www.deja.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 02:11:19 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Douglas E. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
> At 07:02 PM 2/6/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
> There are religious leaders who depend upon ignorance for their power.
> Ignorance and fear.
Fear and Ignorance.
Trust no one.
Keep your laser handy.
The computer is your friend.
Ben
Sorry couldn't resist that.
> Jack Chick is one of those people. He is himself
> afraid of the world, so retreats into this fantasy land of an Old Testament
> God, and sees anyone who doesn't met his own standards as satanic. It's
> not just gamers. Read the tracts on Chick's site and you'll see Catholics,
> Mormons, Jews, feminists, scientists.. everybody gets slammed!
>
> Chick, BTW, is also the man who gave us Dark Dungeons.. read the MST3K
> version here:
>
> http://www.fecundity.com/darkdung/setup.html
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
>
> "Genetically" we are nearly identical to fruit flies. On the
> other hand, as a species we write better string quartets.
> - Rich Clancey
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 01:54:08 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: 52 million ton hull!
Actually I've gone for 18 spherical hulls of 3 million dtons each arranged in
two rosettes of 9 each to form a sort of torus.
The original highport was built as a single rosette of 9 hulls and then as more
capacity was required extra hulls were added until a second rosette was
completed.
Although each hull has it's own fusion reactor, control room and M-drives they
are fairly specialised, 4 being mainly cargo transport, 2 mainly handling
passenger, 1 with most of the fuel tankage etc.
One thing I'm still bothered about is whether Trin's ring system would prevent
me from placing it in GEO. (Even though the ring is much closer in the particle
density may be quite high at GEO I don't know).
And what the hell are these glittery particles anyway, how come they glitter.
Can't be ice we're too close into the sun.
Sigh.
A gamemasters work is never done.
Ben
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Trevor, Peter <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 6:04 PM
Subject: RE: 52 million ton hull!
> Dean Jones wrote:
> > > Or why not just go for a "distributed structure" like the Borg
> > > world in Star Trek Voyager? Just keep adding bits where-ever as
> > > time goes by without regard for aestetics or symmetry. Actually
> > > large highports probably do grow from small ones over time in
> > > much the same way that ground cities grow.
> >
> > Hmm, not sure about Borg-style distributed structure...would
> > make it look kind of plain and ring-like. I was trying to suggest
> > a structure that combines the really cool image of a ring circling
> > the planet with the concept of six highports. While your
> > suggestion would make it nicely lumpy it would probably lack huge
> > sticky-out bits the size of Trin highport :)
>
> The scene in ST:V I was thinking about would have it as dozens of
> irregular "industrial"-looking structures, some connected by long
> 'strands' ... with ships zipping inbetween. A sort of "busy
> disorganised construction site" look as opposed to the ST
> Federation "planned society" look.
>
> Regards PLST
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:19:59 -0800 (PST)
From: healyzh@aracnet.com
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
Bruce Johnson wrote:
> healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:
> > As for the Dinosaur article, consider this, evolutionism is a Religion! Why
> > is it that Evolutionism can be taught in schools, and not Creationism? The
> > teaching of Evolutionism in schools is in fact a form of Religous
> > Persecution in that it encourages Religous intollerance.
>
> Good try, but BZZZT Thank you for playing the Creationist Twist The
> Logic Game.
>
> Creationism is not a theory but explicitly Christian theology
> masquerading as science.
Last I checked, Christions weren't the only ones that believe in some form
of Creationism. Oh, and thank you for indirectly pointing out that
evolution is a *theory*, not a fact.
> It is a way to sneak Christian dogma into the schools. Notice that
> little thought is given to _other_ religion's Creation Myths.
Believe it or not I'd have no problem seeing all or none taught. However,
if you're going to teach evolutionism, you should also be teaching the
alternate points of view.
> Evolution is not a religion, but a tested (and proven) scientific
> theory. If you choose not to believe that good for you, but it's not
> going to change what is and isn't provably true.
Ah, now there is a contradiction. Think about what you just said for a
moment. A "tested (and proven) scientific theory". Last I checked if
something is proven it's not a theory. Furthermore, how are you going to
prove it? You are simply *believing* that certain people have interpretted
what they've seen correctly. You have *faith*, that this is true. Hmmm,
that sure sounds like a religion to me.
> If you choose to believe that Science is a religion, I pity you for your
> profound ignorance.
Actually I said *Evolutionism* is a religion. I don't think Science is a
religion. I don't think it's perfect either. How many times over the past
couple hundred years have scientists shown other scientists to be wrong.
> You may in fact choose to not believe in gravity, go right ahead, jump
> off the roof.
>
> You may, in fact choose not to believe that the Earth is over 4 billion
> years old. Doesn't make much of a difference to the rocks.
>
> This, Zane, is where most negative impressions of Christians comes forth.
>
> "By not allowing me to persecute others you're persecuting me!"
Last I checked I'm not trying to persecute anyone, and in fact am advocating
tolerance. You on the other hand appear to be rediculing me for my faith,
while denying your own. You're also showing the sort of religious
intolerance I'm talking about. You're so sure that Evolution is true that
you are unwilling to consider otherwise, and are willing to ridicule anyone
that believes differently. Isn't that the sort of intolerance you're
accusing Christians of?
Zane
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:23:51 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
> Actually, evolution _is_ proven. It's natural selection that is the
theory.
> In any case, this is something of a misunderstanding of what a scientific
> theory is, creationism isn't even a scientific theory, because it has no
> predictive value and cannot be tested.
Wow, I must have missed something. What a great argument! When did you prove
evolution?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:39:06 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG(long)
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <healyzh@aracnet.com>
> Strange, what I'm seeing is what was once a Christian nation, where now
> Christians are ridiculed and in some cases persecuted. But then I also
see
> a Nation where everyone is supposed to be equal, yet isn't.
Though this country was indeed founded by people who claimed Christianity,
and it was run by Christians, mostly Protestants, for many years, there has
always been a very large population outside of those bounds, most often a
majority. But there is no way to claim anyplace on God's gray Earth as a
Christian nation. Christians have no home or nation here until Christ
himself establishes one.
Wow. It's been a year or so since we had a lively religion flame war. Winter
must be getting some folks stir crazy. I think I'll make some popcorn and
get a front row seat.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 02:43:55 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Government Code questions
>From: "Colin Paddock" <su_liam@ordata.com>
"On the subject of government codes would the Roman Republic have been
a 4 Representative Democracy(I have problems with this) or a 3 or C
oligarchy."
and
"Another question I have is about the difference between
Self-perpetuating Oligarchies and Charismatic Oligarchies as well as between
Charismatic and Non-charismatic dictatorships. If a charismatic government
continues to exist after its popular initial leader(s) have passed on does
it become self-perpetuating?"
I always felt that IISS 1st and 2nd Survey data was not meant by the
Imperium to be "set in stone". Instead, it was a snap-shot of the entire
Imperium at a particualr moment in time. There are plenty of canonical
references to UPPs being adjusted for a wide variety of reasons; starport
upgrades, population flux, tech improvements, so why not for changes in
governments?
Using your oligarchies example, a popular figure engineers his election
to the Presidency of a shaky republic and a few years later engineers it's
overthrow, crowning himself emperor in the process. At first, he's wildly
popular with the population, reviving morale through a series of military
adventures, rebuilding infrastructure, fostering tech improvements, but
after a few decades and a few blunders, he's viewed less favorably. At the
end, he leads his people into a disasterous war and is forced to abdicate.
Why couldn't the IISS have re-rated his world's government code through the
years of his reign, changing it from 4 to A to D over the thirty year span?
If my example seems familiar it should. It's Napoleon III.
As for your quetions on the Roman Republic, it was a self perpetuating
oligarchy, not a representative democracy. Remember the members of
Senatorial and Equestrian classes who met and voted on policy were not
ELECTED to those positions. Instead, they were either born or appointed to
them. Conversely, the Zhodani Consulate has a government code of 4.
Although the members of their councils are all nobles, those nobles are
elected to their seats, albeit by other nobles. It's a representative
democracy with a very limited franchise. Which isn't too bad of an idea.
After watching "The Jerry Springer Show", the idea of not letting most
people vote is strangely soothing. 8^)
Larsen
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3611
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3612
Date: | 2/7/01 8:07:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 7 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3612
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Anti-RPG
RE: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Anti-RPG (religion and Evolution)
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long) & Proof( short)
Theory of Evolution
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Anti-RPG (religion and Evolution)
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
RE: Anti-RPG (religion and Evolution)
RE: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Re: Islands subsectors
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:56:18 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
I've found that sci-fi fans are about 90% agnostic, and 95% or more will
accept the worst science as trumping any scripture, so you are not going to
get very far with this crowd by attacking their dogma. The world of
Traveller is as much a fantasy as any game of Car Wars or (gasp) D&D. When
playing here we leave reality at the door and check out for awhile. And
sometimes we have a little entertainment.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <healyzh@aracnet.com>
> Last I checked I'm not trying to persecute anyone, and in fact am
advocating
> tolerance. You on the other hand appear to be rediculing me for my faith,
> while denying your own. You're also showing the sort of religious
> intolerance I'm talking about. You're so sure that Evolution is true that
> you are unwilling to consider otherwise, and are willing to ridicule
anyone
> that believes differently. Isn't that the sort of intolerance you're
> accusing Christians of?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:46:38 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
- -----Original Message-----
From: SwordWorlder [mailto:SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 1:24 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Jackson" <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
> Actually, evolution _is_ proven. It's natural selection that is the
theory.
> In any case, this is something of a misunderstanding of what a
scientific
> theory is, creationism isn't even a scientific theory, because it has
no
> predictive value and cannot be tested.
Wow, I must have missed something. What a great argument! When did you
prove
evolution?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Take a look at the following sites, this may help clear up the
fact/theory arguement
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html
http://www.gate.net/~rwms/EvoEvidence.html
http://www.skeptictank.org/hs/factfaq.htm
These are good sites, where all references are cited so they may be
further investigated.
http://www.evolutionhappens.net/
This site has some info that may be relevant, but doesn't appear to cite
any claims.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:07:04 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:
> > > Thank you for posting the links. What a wonderful web-site! I'd
> > > encourage everyone to approach the web-site with an open mind
> > > instead of some knee-jerk reaction! Sure the first activelly
> > > attacks our hobby, but both make very valid points.
> >
> > LIke what? I'm honestly curious. I make my living in the RPG
> > industry and saw nothing resembling truth in anything on that page.
> > Perhaps you were joking?
> >
> > -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
>
> Actually the fact that you make your living in the RPG industry
> indicates you might be a little to close to the subject :^) BTW, I've
> written for Empire of the Petal Throne, which as a whole makes D&D
> look down right wholesome in most cases. As for making my living, I
> make it in the computer industry.
>
<snip>
> Why do I think there are real dangers? Consider this, at any Gaming
> Convention, Sci-Fi Convention, or Computer Swapmeet, have you ever
> noticed how there seem to be a far higher percentage of people with a
> very weak grasp on reality than you would normally find? There also
> seem to be a higher concentration of people that don't seem to know
> what soap and water is for. Yes, I'm aware that most of the people
> there are normal well adjusted people, I'm just pointing out that
> these things seem to draw out those that aren't. Oh, and in all
> honesty since my collection of RPG books is around 500 items
> (including over 200 Traveller items), I'm most likely in the non-well
> adjusted catagory, but then I've come to realize in the last couple
> years that I've a major problem with collecting.
I can understand that point of view, but I strongly disagree and so
do the facts. From my experience, some folks are just unstable. If
it's not RPGs or computer games, it will be action movies, fantasy
novels, hate groups, extreme religious cults, sports fandom, or
simply their own home-brew brand of craziness.
The rates of suicide and violent crime is no higher among RPG
players than among any other section of the population (somewhat
lower IIRC). Some nutballs, get attracted to the fringe, but IMHO,
the fringe doesn't make anyone a nutball. Also, the vast majority of
nutballs in gaming are totally harmless to both themselves and
others. On average, extreme sports fans are more likely to end up
being violent towards others (likely because of the dynamics of the
two particular hobbies, one hobby involves large crowds of highly
emotional people, and the other doesn't).
The whole idea that people need to be protected from themselves
bothers me (in addition to being a great way for governments to
erode civil rights in the name of public safety). I've been to lots of
gaming cons. I see loads of folks with fewer social skills than
many invertebrates, but very few I'd worry about harming
themselves or others. I've also read studies about violent media &
pornography and similar types of entertainment people worry about,
and it simply isn't true that such things are dangerous. There may
seem to be a problem, but statistics indicate there isn't.
> As for the Dinosaur article, consider this, evolutionism is a
> Religion! Why is it that Evolutionism can be taught in schools, and
> not Creationism? The teaching of Evolutionism in schools is in fact a
> form of Religous Persecution in that it encourages Religous
> intollerance.
In a word, No.
I'm deeply religious, I've had several religious visions where gods
have spoken to me. However, I recognize that these have all been
subjective, unmeasureable experiences with no validity to anyone
but me. That what religion is all about. It is a belief system about
unmeasurables (life after death, the existence of souls, deities, and
other non-physical phenomena) as well as (normally) a system of
ethics and morals. When you get down to it, religion always come
down to either I believe something either because I feel in my heart
that's it's true, or because someone else I trust/respect told me
that it's true.
Evolutionary biology is about none of these things. Natural
selection has been proven in numerous laboratories, the age of
various extinct animals has been established by various checkable
techniques. While many people believe in evolution because they
are told it is true, they could if they wished also examine the
primary data and prove it form themselves.
OTOH, Materialism (the belief that there are no non-physical
phenomena like deities, or souls) is a belief system. Like any
other system of faith, it is completely unprovable except by purely
subjective means. It should not be taught in schools. However,
evolutionary biology, like other forms of science, is based upon
checkable, repeatable measurements.
Creationism has *nothing* to back it up but religious faith. I've read
the "data" a number of creation scientists have put forward, it's all
full of inaccuracies, misunderstandings, and statements that either
prove the writer is seriously ignorant or deliberately lying. It is not
science, and is not provable except to people who were completely
certain that it was correct long before they look at any of the
alleged data.
I also take strong issue with anyone (religious person, scientist or
whatever) who states that science has any innate conflict with
religion. If your religion contradicts established science, it is not
only incorrect, it is deal with areas that I think are not appropriate
for religion. Such people are normally doing pseudo-science
disguised as religion.
If a scientist thinks they can prove or disprove the existence of the
souls or life after death (Tippler's Omega Point nonsense comes to
mind) they are doing bad science, or more often religion disguised
as science.
Topics like correct ethical or moral behavior, the fate of the soul
after death, and the existence or non existence of any particular
deity are simply not topics science can address. In the absence of
anything other than personal belief and subjective experience, you
can't prove or disprove any claims made about any of these topics.
Any scientist who claims otherwise is a fool (most don't).
Since sciences like evolutionary biology are about provable,
repeatable events which have universal applicability. As such, they
are perfectly reasonable topics for public school education. OTOH,
other than classes in comparative religion, religion is not a suitable
topic for public school since there is no single provable answer.
Comments welcome.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:13:51 -0800
From: "Jason Bernstein" <apoc527@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (religion and Evolution)
Ok, this could get ugly...but please, see my responses below
(Oh, I'm a Genetics major...so, yes, I'm biased. I also don't believe in
the Judeo-Christian "god." However, I hold nothing against those that do.
Some of my best friends have an extreme devotion to the Church.)
>
> Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:19:59 -0800 (PST)
> From: healyzh@aracnet.com
> Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
>
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> > healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:
> > > As for the Dinosaur article, consider this, evolutionism is a
Religion! Why
> > > is it that Evolutionism can be taught in schools, and not Creationism?
The
> > > teaching of Evolutionism in schools is in fact a form of Religous
> > > Persecution in that it encourages Religous intollerance.
> >
> > Good try, but BZZZT Thank you for playing the Creationist Twist The
> > Logic Game.
> >
> > Creationism is not a theory but explicitly Christian theology
> > masquerading as science.
>
> Last I checked, Christions weren't the only ones that believe in some form
> of Creationism. Oh, and thank you for indirectly pointing out that
> evolution is a *theory*, not a fact.
>
> > It is a way to sneak Christian dogma into the schools. Notice that
> > little thought is given to _other_ religion's Creation Myths.
>
> Believe it or not I'd have no problem seeing all or none taught. However,
> if you're going to teach evolutionism, you should also be teaching the
> alternate points of view.
Evolution SHOULD be taught, but only if you feel the need to teach such
things as Biology, Math, Physics, or Chemistry. Why? Evolution has its
roots in SCIENTIFIC discovery. Evolution is a theory (whoever said it was
proven is on one VERY power narcotic...), however it's a theory that a) has
not been disproven and b) has lots of support for it. There are many
biochemical arguments that are EXTREMELY convincing that support the theory
of evolution as well as many genetic ones. The FACT (I use the term
correctly) that the human genome is littered with the genomes of ancient
retroviruses is excellent evidence that people have been around for a while,
evolving into the present day population. Let's not forget anthropology,
archaealogy and of course, genetics. Creationism is a story. It has no
evidence either for or against it and it is largely the product of thousands
of years of Christian (ie Hiver) manipulations. The Hiv...errr
Christians...developed an amazing system to control the thoughts of people.
They answered questions that could not be answered. However, that was a
long time ago and the necessity of religion (at least the huge, lumbering
organized kind) is waning. I have no problem with individual spiritualism
or one's personal connection to whatever higher power one chooses to believe
in. What I have a problem with is giant organizations trying to force their
own beliefs onto me or others who are not receptive to those beliefs.
Therefore, teaching Creationism in school is BAD.
>
> > Evolution is not a religion, but a tested (and proven) scientific
> > theory. If you choose not to believe that good for you, but it's not
> > going to change what is and isn't provably true.
>
> Ah, now there is a contradiction. Think about what you just said for a
> moment. A "tested (and proven) scientific theory". Last I checked if
> something is proven it's not a theory. Furthermore, how are you going to
> prove it? You are simply *believing* that certain people have
interpretted
> what they've seen correctly. You have *faith*, that this is true. Hmmm,
> that sure sounds like a religion to me.
As I've said before, Evolution isn't proven, however it's far more valid a
theory than Creationism. The thing that sets evolution apart from
Creationism is that you don't HAVE to accept someone else's word to see the
evidence. With training, you can do it yourself. Reducing science to a
different form of religion is downright silly. Without getting TOO
philosophical, science is based off physical facts and REAL, TANGIBLE
evidence. Religion is based off of what someone else tells you when you're
young. Hence, Evolution, which has real, tangible evidence (whether or not
you choose to misinterpret that evidence is up to you) which makes it a
scientific theory, NOT a religion.
>
> > If you choose to believe that Science is a religion, I pity you for your
> > profound ignorance.
>
> Actually I said *Evolutionism* is a religion. I don't think Science is a
> religion. I don't think it's perfect either. How many times over the
past
> couple hundred years have scientists shown other scientists to be wrong.
>
> > You may in fact choose to not believe in gravity, go right ahead, jump
> > off the roof.
> >
> > You may, in fact choose not to believe that the Earth is over 4 billion
> > years old. Doesn't make much of a difference to the rocks.
> >
> > This, Zane, is where most negative impressions of Christians comes
forth.
> >
> > "By not allowing me to persecute others you're persecuting me!"
>
> Last I checked I'm not trying to persecute anyone, and in fact am
advocating
> tolerance. You on the other hand appear to be rediculing me for my faith,
> while denying your own. You're also showing the sort of religious
> intolerance I'm talking about. You're so sure that Evolution is true that
> you are unwilling to consider otherwise, and are willing to ridicule
anyone
> that believes differently. Isn't that the sort of intolerance you're
> accusing Christians of?
>
> Zane
>
Ahh...yes the nasty, flame war argument. Ok, Zane, I do not have ANYTHING
against you for your faith, nor do I think less of you as a person or that
you are somehow "stupider" than I am. Oh, and for the record, here's what I
believe. I fully believe in Evolution as the mechanism for life on Earth.
However, I do believe in a "god" that started the Big Bang. The truth of
the matter is simple. We can get evidence for Evolution, but we have NO
idea how the universe started. The Big Bang is as valid as God in my eyes,
and until evidence IS gathered on the start of the universe, I will not
change my opinion. See? I have faith too...
- -Jake Bernstein
University of Washington, Department of Genetics
apoc527@u.washington.edu
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:16:03 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
"Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au> wrote:
> Getting serious-ish for a moment: the thing about this site that
> really bugged me was the anti-Arab racism in the anti-Islamic section.
> This crossed the line between insane and evil.
The Chick pamphlet on the Catholic Church was similarly evil (all
about how the evil Catholics tried to stop the publication of the King
James bible. It was full of images of demons leering out of stained
glass windows and similarly sick stuff. These folks are bigots of
the worst sort. They deserve nothing but contempt and mockery.
I've not seen an anti-semitic pamphlet from them, but given that in
the US, truly evil bigots always manage to stick in some anti-
semitism too, I'm sure there's one out there someplace.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:20:29 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long) & Proof( short)
Actually, contrary to about every argument, nothing is proven, or provable.
If you let go of a ball 100 time and it falls straight down, it doesn't mean
that if you let go that 101th time it won't hover, or shoot of sideways or
just pop out of existance. It's a preponderance of circumstantial evidince.
It is a matter of faith. Faith in causality. Because if you don't have some
faith in that you can't plan on anything. You can't take a best guess on
probability and no one has the answers unless they are the ones pulling the
strings.
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs.
====================
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:23:57 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: Theory of Evolution
>Founded on the fact that there are similarities between humans and apes.
No. Founded on the fact that certain finches shared traits while others did
not. It took a lot of anthropological evidence to make that jump.
>Meant to open up to possibility that humans could have come about without a
Divine Being.
No way. Darwin was a fervent Christian. In fact, he delayed publication of
his ideas because he knew what they would mean to the Judeo-Christian
notions of creation.
>Meant to disprove the existence of God.
No ******* way. Has it ever occurred to you that Evolution and Creationism
can co-exist? That the Big Bang is eerily similar to the depiction of the
universe's creation in Genesis? That the sequence in which lifeforms arose
on Earth is the same as well? The Theory of Evolution doesn't predict an
outcome, just a process. I have no problem believing that God is
responsible for the outcome.
>Has been so far impossible to prove because it has not been observed.(!)
There's evolution and there's "Evolution." It's not over, it never will be.
Many of us have seen pictures of the light and dark moths adjusting to
pollution in Industrial Britian. That sort of "evolution" happened within
the span of fifty years tops. Bacteria resistant to penicillin, boll
weevils resistant to pesticides, these happen even quicker. This sort of
evolution is so widespread many would be tempted to call it by another name,
but it's evolution. I will grant that the theory does not explain
everything, but that's why it's a theory.
ObTrav: Larry Niven wrote a story which (IMHO) supposes that intelligence
was no longer a required or beneficial survival trait in humanity. So
humans started regressing. Mayhap there's a similar planet in the Imperium
where machines make knowledge superfluous and indeed dangerous.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 03:30:21 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
>From: healyzh@aracnet.com
>snip
"Ah, now there is a contradiction. Think about what you just said for
a moment. A "tested (and proven) scientific theory". Last I checked if
something is proven it's not a theory. Furthermore, how are you going to
prove it"
Should I bother? Why not? (sigh)
I believe that you're confusing the scientific meaning of the word
"theory", what rhetoricians mean by "theory", and it's popular usage. The
same word often means very different things to different folks. After all,
there is a "theory" for gravitational attraction that I'm sure you would
agree has been proven.
Now for your evolution arguments. A few posts ago you mentioned
something about man coming from apes. That's not exactly what Darwin meant
or said. Or what the anthropologists after him. He wrote that man and apes
had a common ancestor, which is something completely different.
I'm sure you've read about our new problems with antibiotic resistant
bacterias or the new type of TB that defies conventional treatsments or the
the bacterias that have found certain types of plastics tasty? Where did
they all come from? Why they evolved to fill new ecological niches, that's
where they come from.
Now, you might be one of the folks who feel that evolution works for
certain types of life, but not others; the Man is Special argument. This is
a completely understandable and very human conceit. But doesn't that mean
that your deity now only operates within the "gaps", here but not there?
Kind of odd for a being described as all powerful, isn't it?
Evolution has been aceepted by the Catholic Church recently. That took
them quite a bit faster than their eventual rehabilitation of Galileo.
Maybe finally admitting the Earth revolves around the Sun and that a vacuum
does exist loosened them up a bit.
And finally, as an engineer I'd have problems with any holy text that
has an incorrect value for pi. Unfortunately, the Bible does. Now, the
deity who dictated the Bible may have known the actual value of pi, but the
human who transcribed it screwed up. Now the question is, what else did
that human transcriber get wrong?
As a species we've slowly retreated from the position that unseen
supernatural agents caused everything from the rain to tides to wind and
have come to realize that rational, understandable forces are responsible
instead. Each step brings us closer to the fact that humanity isn't some
special, divinely inspired, creation but rather is a happy accident that the
Universe cares nothing about. This knowledge hurts our pride, so some folks
refusal to face it is understandable, because it so very human.
Larsen
"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your
right to say it."
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:42:55 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (religion and Evolution)
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Bernstein" <apoc527@u.washington.edu>
> archaealogy and of course, genetics. Creationism is a story. It has no
> evidence either for or against it and it is largely the product of
thousands
> of years of Christian (ie Hiver) manipulations. The Hiv...errr
> Christians...developed an amazing system to control the thoughts of
people.
> They answered questions that could not be answered. However, that was a
> long time ago and the necessity of religion (at least the huge, lumbering
> organized kind) is waning.
"The danger of a man rejecting God is not that he will believe in nothing,
but that he will believe in anything."
;-)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:46:06 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> instead. Each step brings us closer to the fact that humanity isn't some
> special, divinely inspired, creation but rather is a happy accident that
the
> Universe cares nothing about. This knowledge hurts our pride, so some
folks
> refusal to face it is understandable, because it so very human.
"The danger of a man rejecting God is not that he will believe in nothing,
but that he will believe in anything."
Yeah, I know, I'm beginning to repeat myself. But aren't we all ;-)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:48:57 -0500
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
At 2:07 PM +1300 2/8/01, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
>Okay, how about we all sit on our hands for a few minutes and think this
>one through. This is not only *way* off topic, but potentially as explosive as
>the dreaded "Gun Control". May I humbly suggest we drop this.
I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew. I'm disgusted with the
unbelievable lameness of you people. Why can't we go back to
fighting over penis size? This is simply pathetic.
Signing off,
Kenji
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:45:26 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG (religion and Evolution)
- -----Original Message-----
From: SwordWorlder [mailto:SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 2:43 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (religion and Evolution)
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Bernstein" <apoc527@u.washington.edu>
> archaealogy and of course, genetics. Creationism is a story. It has
no
> evidence either for or against it and it is largely the product of
thousands
> of years of Christian (ie Hiver) manipulations. The Hiv...errr
> Christians...developed an amazing system to control the thoughts of
people.
> They answered questions that could not be answered. However, that was
a
> long time ago and the necessity of religion (at least the huge,
lumbering
> organized kind) is waning.
"The danger of a man rejecting God is not that he will believe in
nothing,
but that he will believe in anything."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That is so true... I don't believe in god... but I do beleive in "The
Hand of Nicola".
Nicola being my wife!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:43:23 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
- -----Original Message-----
From: Kenji Schwarz [mailto:schwarz@fas.harvard.edu]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 2:49 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Cc: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
At 2:07 PM +1300 2/8/01, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
>Okay, how about we all sit on our hands for a few minutes and think
this
>one through. This is not only *way* off topic, but potentially as
explosive as
>the dreaded "Gun Control". May I humbly suggest we drop this.
I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew. I'm disgusted with the
unbelievable lameness of you people. Why can't we go back to
fighting over penis size? This is simply pathetic.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I'm game....... shall we talk about our RPG penises or our mundane
penises?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:02:29 -0800
From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>The few sources that might carry across
>interstellar space (extremely high powered military radars and the like) are
>essentially mindless signals and could easily be mistaken for natural
>phenomn.
Probably not; military radars are much narrower bandwidth than any
natural signal.
Bruce
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 04:00:48 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
"I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew. I'm disgusted with the
unbelievable lameness of you people. Why can't we go back to
fighting over penis size? This is simply pathetic.
Signing off,
Kenji"
Well, I for one didn't want to make you all feel you were lacking...
Larsen E. "The Human Tripod" Whipsnade
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 05:02:11 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
> The 3I undertook a huge colonization effort "Behind the Claw" sending
>settlers and traders by the millions into the Deneb, Marches, and Trojan
>Reach sectors.
"By the millions" is propably an exaggeration.
>GDW's SMC states that there were very few pre-existing human settled worlds
>from the 1st or 2nd Imperiums in the region,
None or at least pretty nearly none from the time of the 1st Imperium, but
quite a few from the time of the Rule of Man (note, however, that these were
mostly Vilani fleeing from the RoM, so some sources call the 1st Imperium
colonies). In the Spinward Marches only two of these survived until -1513
(well, more than two if you believe _Behind the Claw_), but an unspecified
number settled in Deneb and the Trojan Reach.
>...so the 3I just didn't absorb already settled worlds like they had in other
>regions. Instead they had to ship everyone and everything there from the main
>body of the Empire.
Actually, a trade scout encountered a league of four starfaring worlds in the
2nd quadrant and brokered the sale of an entire fleet of obsolescent warships
to defend them against Vargr raiders. With this auspicious start the Lidash
League voted to join the Imperium _en bloc_ in Year 100. [Source: My article
"Mora -- Year 100" in JTAS Online ;-)]. There's a lot more to that story, of
course.
> Now, Mora was settled in 60, Regina by 75,
The initial settlement on Mora was a mining outpost. The original settlers
didn't plan to settle there. It just worked out that way. Regina was settled by
a group of utopians who wanted a world far, far away from the Imperium.
>...and the big settlement push in the Marches took place between 200 and 400.
True.
>So all these settlers, their kine and kiddies, their furniture and farm
>equipment were shipped there THROUGH the Corridor sector...
Some settlers, yes, but how many? A few tens of thousands of people arriving
around 200 is able to account for any canonical population level in the Domain
in 1100.
>...during the same time (210-348) that the Navy was playing "dog catcher"
>there.
> Why didn't some bright light in the Ministry of Colonization, or some
>other department, see the Islands as another route to the new worlds "Behind
>the Claw"? I'm sure many a colony ship or convoy was hit by Vargr raiders,
>each time with with huge loss of life and materials.
Why do you assume that? As long as there are strong worlds spaced at regular
intervals along the route, colony ships would be able to get across Corridor
without worrying about Vargr raiders at all. The navy might have to provide
somer of those strongpoints in the form of Navy bases, but that's what a Navy is
for.
> The Navy fought the Vargr campaign over FOUR generations, and then just
>to push back our furry friends two subsectors coreward.
I've got a different theory there (And it's just a theory, mind you). I think
humans settled on quite a few empty worlds corewards of the Deneb-Corridor
border. The Vargr campaigns were fought with mostly local forces and ended with
the imperium abandoning the coreward settlements and pulling back to hold "The
Line". There were some Vargr states in Corridor in 200, but they were propably
put under control fairly early in the Vargr Campaigns.
>Not one of the Navy's planners or admirals looked for another route just in
>case they couldn't stabilize Corridor enough for civilian traffic? Or for an
>alternate path for re-enforcements against the Zho's just in case the Vargr
>portion of the Outworld Coalition managed to pull their collective head out
>long enough to disrupt travel through the Corridor Sector?
Different time frames. The Zhodani weren't regarded as hostile until late 6th
Century and the Outworld Coalition didn't exist much before that. Certainly not
during the Vargr Campaigns.
> T:NE's RSB has maintenance starved vampire fleets doing it easily
>enough and often enough to destroy Island worlds. The vampires supposedly
>do it often enough that it forced the Regency to annex the area for
>quarantine reasons.
> So, why couldn't the Third Imperium?
They had higher priorities elsewhere.
Peter Trevor writes:
>IIRC the initial exploration behind the claw was done by traders who
>eventually made contact with the Sword Worlds and the Darrians.
The evidence is contradictory, but IMO the best interpretation has the Scouts
making the initial contact, the traders following the Scouts and the settlers
following the traders.
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>Sorry can't buy that. Any populated world would make enough "noise" to
>be detectable, let only sub-light ramscoop craft.
You're stating an opinion as a fact, a practice that is frowned on here on the
TML. We really don't know how much noise _that anyone is listening for_ a
future society would generate. And regardless of what the true state of affairs
may be here in the Real Universe, the assumptions of the Traveller Universe is
that a world like, say, Earth anno 2100 AD doesn't produce enough noise to make
a Vilani look twice. Also, IIRC, the missions that colonized the Island clusters
were "backup missions" designed to make sure some Tellurians survived the
struggle with the Vilani. As such they may deliberately have tried to minimize
the noise they made.
> As for the possibilty they might be empty, there were colonist
>travelling 100's of parsecs to systems in Deneb or the Marches. "Empty"
>Islands systems a bit closer to home should have been coveted, despite a 6
>or 8 parsec "moat'
An 8 parsec moat would be a huge obstacle to a jump-1 or jump-2 colony ship.
The logistics of getting a ship that is only 20% fuel tanks across an 8-parsec
gap is quite involved and very costly.
>"If the Imperium doesn't bother to take out the sword worlds, they
>certainly wouldn't bother with the Islands."
>
> The bearded chuckleheads squatting on the Sword Worlds aren't defended
>in any "real" terms by their own military prowess. It's the threat of their
>big brother, the Zhodani Consulate, that kept/keeps them independent and
>even that didn't stop the Imperium from carving off half of their systems to
>form the Border Worlds after the 5th FW.
I think that another thing that is protecting them is Imperial Policy aka the
Emperor's Whim. District 268 was made an Imperial District in 602. In the
following 500 years the Imperium tried to encourage the systems in District 268
to join the Imperium, yet only TWO of them actually did so. The Imperium could
have gobbled up District 268 at any time during those 500 years (well, any time
after the Civil War ended), but they didn't. Why not? The only reason I can
think of is that it was because during those years it was against Imperial
Policy to use force (or even moral suasion ;-).
Hans
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3612
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Traveller-digest Thursday, February 8 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3613
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Science fiction
Re: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Re: [TML] Anti-RPG
RE: Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: [TML] Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Re: Anti-RPG(long)
Re: Anti-RPG (religion and Evolution)
New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
Re: More landgrab info...
humour?
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: More landgrab info...
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3610
FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
Re: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Science Fiction
Re: Government Code questions
Re: Islands subsectors
***SNORE***
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: More landgrab info...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 05:09:59 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Science fiction
Rob Davenport writes:
>Hmm. What might be some near-handwavium ways of improving heat
>dissipation at higher tech levels?
For starships a subspace heat sink will do wonders. Some device that allows heat
to be leaked into another dimension but cannot be used close to a gravity well.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:14:35 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com>
Subject: Re: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
Bill,
I'm SURE somebody will put this on the list; I don't want to waste
bandwidth... OBTRAV denotes the obligatory traveller reference; all
messages on the TML are supposed to be Traveller-related; the OBTRAV
provides that connection... ;*)
- - Bill
At 03:59 PM 2/7/01 -0800, you wrote:
>I keep seeing this and wonder what it means. thanks in advance
>
>Bill
Bill Rutherford
worj@home.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:24:03 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com>
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Hear, hear! I liked the D&D setting in Alan Bradley's post, though!
At 02:07 PM 2/8/01 +1300, you wrote:
>Okay, how about we all sit on our hands for a few minutes and think this
>one through. This is not only *way* off topic, but potentially as
>explosive as
>the dreaded "Gun Control". May I humbly suggest we drop this.
Bill Rutherford
worj@home.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:22:00 -0500
From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Anti-RPG
>Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:07:04 -0800
>From: sneadj@mindspring.com
>Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
>That what religion is all about. It is a belief system about
>unmeasurables (life after death, the existence of souls, deities, and
>other non-physical phenomena) as well as (normally) a system of
>ethics and morals. When you get down to it, religion always come
>down to either I believe something either because I feel in my heart
>that's it's true, or because someone else I trust/respect told me
>that it's true.
Bravo! I know I snipped a very great deal of your post, but I had to jump
in (even after I said I wouldn't....) I've been wondering for the longest
time to put into good words this sort of feeling, as it's been hard to
explain to others, sometimes. Thank you!
To the list in general: So far this thread has been very genteel, courteous
and amicable. Please, please, please, let's not let it explode into the
sort of horrendous flamewar that often accompanies (or, rather, ends)
religious discussions. Last thing I want to see is another flamewar
here. I'm reading enough of one on the B5W list. =) Thanks!
- ---
==============================================================
Jonathan McDermott, CNE/MCSE NOSPAMcaraig@mindspring.com
System Administrator http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Anubis@SpatialWastes -*- Caraig,Dermott@FurryMUCK
IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@
- ------------------------------------------------------------
"Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."
-Steve Wozniak
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 22:10:22 -0600
From: Richard Wilson <rtwilson@rollanet.org>
Subject: RE: Thank you (all)... (was Request for Information)
At 04:39 AM 2/7/01, you wrote:
>John Groth wrote :
> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > <<snips discussion of RF hazards>>
> > > Anybody know if there's anybody besides OSHA who might have regulations
> > > covering this? I keep thinking that the same folks that were causing
> > > problems about laser gunsights violating safety rules probably have
> > > authority over this as well.
> >
> > And I suspect that the Federal Communications Commission (or its
> > equivalent in Jeff Rowse's area, if he's not in the US) would have some
> > concerns over a microwave emitter of that power being operated in an
> > office building. Heck, they have to approve _computer monitors_ to
> > ensure that they don't emit too much RF interference....
>
>Not knowing the details I have to say that while a radar can be dangerous,
>what they're trying to do inn this case may be perfectly safe and legal.
>
>It is common practice to link two line-of-site buildings with directional
>radar-frequency microwave transmitters for networking purposes. The
>difference betwen a radar and a microwave link is the power of the
>transmission, and also the beam spread.
>
>It is common practice to install radar-frequency base stations for PCS and
>other cell-based comms systems inside buildings or for RF networking as
>well.
You still need FCC approval to install the system. And, depending on if
it's an actual fighter radar, you may also need FAA approval if you are
near a flight path where the system can cause interference with other aircraft.
Richard Wilson
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 05:28:22 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes;
> Most of the replies have to my question argued that the Imperium
>wouldn't wanted to bear the cost of the military campaign necessary to
>conquer and hold the Islands. If the 3I had simply thought the subsectors'
>worlds were empty, they would have planned on sending colonists instead of
>cruisers. The cost of a scouting and colony mission would have been much
>less and thus have a better chance of being launched. So, why wasn't it?
Maybe because the Imperium either didn't sponsor colonization at all at the
time (was there a Ministry of Colonization mentioned in _Milieu 0_?) or because
whatever colonization they did sponsor went to worlds close to the worlds the
colonists came from (by far the most economic way to do it). Thus any
long-distance colonization was down to private enterprise and they all
preferred going to places from where Scout reports were available (however
sketchy).
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:27:00 -0500
From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
>Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 04:00:48 -0000
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
>
>From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
> "I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew. I'm disgusted with the
>unbelievable lameness of you people. Why can't we go back to
>fighting over penis size? This is simply pathetic.
>Signing off,
>Kenji"
>
>
> Well, I for one didn't want to make you all feel you were lacking...
>
>
> Larsen E. "The Human Tripod" Whipsnade
*SHPLORT!* Ow, not while drinking milk, no fair...!
I suddenly got the horrible, horrible image of Martian tripod machines...
no, I won't go there. It's just too much for a Wednesday night. Or any
night for that matter.
Cheers!
- ---
==============================================================
Jonathan McDermott, CNE/MCSE NOSPAMcaraig@mindspring.com
System Administrator http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Anubis@SpatialWastes -*- Caraig,Dermott@FurryMUCK
IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@
- ------------------------------------------------------------
"Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."
-Steve Wozniak
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:35:41 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG(long)
At 09:39 PM 2/7/01 -0500, you wrote:
><SNIP>
>Though this country was indeed founded by people who claimed Christianity,
>and it was run by Christians, mostly Protestants, for many years, there has
>always been a very large population outside of those bounds, most often a
>majority. But there is no way to claim anyplace on God's gray Earth as a
>Christian nation. Christians have no home or nation here until Christ
>himself establishes one.
...wasn't this country allegedly originally run by the Masons? ...and
aren't there those who claim the Masons not to be Christian at all? [No
offense to any listmember Masons; just an observation on what some believe...]
Bill Rutherford
worj@home.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:47:15 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (religion and Evolution)
I apologize in advance for posting this because I couldn't come up with a
snappy OBTRAV...
I've snipped the entire preceding thread simply to save space. A thought
about teaching evolution and creationism in schools: Unless one's dealing
with a discipline of things clearly proven (e.g., geometry), isn't it
proper to teach it in an evaluative manner? That is, if one is teaching a
theory, isn't it proper to teach both the pros and cons of that
theory? I'm not a teacher and haven't been in a non-technical school in
about 20 years, so I ask this seriously; I don't know! That being the
case, though, would teaching alternative theories of "Where we came from"
in school that included teaching the theory of creationism necessitate
discussing the cons of that theory as well as the pros? That is, is there
a line between teaching something as fact and presenting it as an
interesting alternative theory? In short, where's the line between
teaching and preaching (on whatever topic, be it creationism or evolution)?
Bill Rutherford
worj@home.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 22:48:59 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
In the next week or so, I will be mobilized to serve in the fifth year
of the one-year peacekeeping mission in the Balkans.
This means that I will be unable to read every TML post. As a result, I
will not be able to archive every TML keyboard kill.
I therefore humbly ask for a volunteer to take over this task.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:49:31 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: More landgrab info...
Hello Folks,
Thanks for the info <grin>
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 20:55:41 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: humour?
...
>humans started regressing. Mayhap there's a similar planet in the Imperium
>where machines make knowledge superfluous and indeed dangerous.
Already happened - Darrian, in -924 :>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 20:56:01 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
>Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
...
>Probably not; military radars are much narrower bandwidth than any
>natural signal.
FWIW, would passives (and thorough comms updates) be sufficient for
in-system traffic control in their pre-FTL state? Assuming that they
might in some cases have many hundreds or even several thousands of
craft puttering about their systems (Serendip in particular...). Is
there much point in high-powered radar where there's no military
threat, and everything is starting in your telescopes fields of view?
ObTrav: how would creationism and gun control modify the above? :>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 19:55:57
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
At 07:57 PM 2/7/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>Zane, I'm with you. Evolution *is* a religion. It requires you to believe
>something to be true that is not proven. I'm not against it being taught in
>schools per se, but I believe that it should be taught as the *theory* that
>it is. A *THEORY* folks!
http://www.talkorigins.org
Read the FAQs. Answers a number of questions.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 20:42:31
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
At 07:16 PM 2/7/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>I've not seen an anti-semitic pamphlet from them, but given that in
>the US, truly evil bigots always manage to stick in some anti-
>semitism too, I'm sure there's one out there someplace.
The complete tract list:
http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp
Some tracts about, or mentioning, Judaism.
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1000/1000_01.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0014/0014_01.asp
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 20:46:46
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: More landgrab info...
At 03:10 PM 2/7/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>Anyone heard from Doug recently? I posted the Heya details on
>http://www.spinwardmarches.com and wanted his OK/comments.
Doug has been fighting the flu. The real, honest-to-God influenza. Since
I'm already immuno-compromised, this has slowed me way down.
Go ahead and post it Tod, I really don't have the time to do more at this
time.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 20:57:54
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3610
At 07:41 PM 2/7/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>I'll never forget a few years back, I attended a SF con that was in a hotel
>across the street from a Promise Keepers meeting. It was truly amazing.....
>It was the exact same thing, the exact types of people, just a different
>interest.
SiliCon '89 had the misfortune of having to share the hotel with a
evangelical youth group. About 150 of them, as I recall.
I have never dealt with a ruder, more destructive group in my 20+ years of
con going. They rampaged across the hotel, going into convention spaces
despite repeated, weak, warnings from their "leaders," hassled femfen,
crashed our parties, and lectured incessantly.
Ever been preached to by a drunken teenager? It is an experience. And
when we started counter-attacking, pointing out Biblical inconsistencies
and the like, they got violent.
At about 0300, the hotel had enough. They threw out the youth group, and
(I heard from the Chairman's wife later) apologized to the convention staff
in front of the youth group's director.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 00:05:00 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
Hello Terry,
You would have to throw ice water on my back while I'm trying to grapple
with the issue of automating the distance finder routine <grin>. The only
options I have at this point is to finish my original plans to create the
distance finder. Once that is done, perhaps figure a way to trace the
shortest distance from point to point via jump drive X where X represents
the jump drive value of the ship in question.
>It is more difficult than that, I am afraid. The distance that Far Trader
uses
>is not straight line but how far you need to travel to get there. Also,
>Jim MacLean has modified the rules some since it was published.
The updated chart showing the new trade charts was a nice find for me
<grin>. Thanks.
As you are willing to do revisions <evil grin>...
Why is it that a Jump 1 transportation is more expensive than a Jump 2
transportation cost? Let me put it this way...
Shipper to agent: I want to send my package to Chicago. How much is it?
Agent: well, you can send it via air and it will cost you $15. You can
send it via Ground, and it will cost you $5. Which will it be?
Shipper: how long are the delivery times?
Agent: Air is overnight, while ground is 3 to 4 days.
Shipper: Ok, I'll take the overnight.
(alternative)
Shipper: I think I will take the ground delivery. It isn't worth paying 3
times as much to get it there overnight...
In general, I would have thought that the faster services would be able
to charge more money for the speed bonus. In short, how would you resolve
the problem I've set before you? <grin> (no fair saying "I won't do a
thing, bleh...")
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 00:05:12 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com>
Subject: Re: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
Yike! This was to have gone off-list...
At 11:14 PM 2/7/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Bill,
>
>I'm SURE somebody will put this on the list; I don't want to waste
>bandwidth... OBTRAV denotes the obligatory traveller reference; all
>messages on the TML are supposed to be Traveller-related; the OBTRAV
>provides that connection... ;*)
>
>- Bill
>
>
>At 03:59 PM 2/7/01 -0800, you wrote:
>>I keep seeing this and wonder what it means. thanks in advance
>>
>>Bill
>
>Bill Rutherford
>worj@home.com
Bill Rutherford
worj@home.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:04:47 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
Bruce Johnson writes:
>This, Zane, is where most negative impressions of Christians comes forth.
>
>"By not allowing me to persecute others you're persecuting me!"
Ahh... That reminds me of one of my favorite sig quotes.
Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
- - "You don't like the Goths?"
- - "No! Not with the persecution we have to put up with!"
- - "Persecution?"
- - "Religious persecution. We wont stand for it forever."
- - "I thought the Goths let everybody worship as they pleased."
- - "That's just it! We Orthodox are forced to stand around and
watch Arians and Monophysites and Nestorians and Jews going
about their business unmolested, as if they owned the
country. If that isn't persecution, I'd like to know what is!"
-Martin Padway and stranger in bar in
"Lest Darkness Fall"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 06:09:00 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Science Fiction
Tod Glenn writes:
>
>> Luxury. You had it easy. We'd loved to have a mountain. We had to
>>get up half an hour before we went to bed, leave the shoebox, and LICK the
>>ocean away with our tongues, just to get enough dry land to build on. And
>>when we got home, our dad would kill us and cut our heads off.
>
>
>Yeah, and you tell that to kids nowadays and they don't believe you.
You think that's bad? In the old days you could tell the kids the truth all day
long, thrash them six times a day and cut their heads off at bedtime, and they
STILL wouldn't believe you!
Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"The greys are lovely people, absolutely fabulous with genetics and
bioengineering, but they can't park their spaceships worth a damn."
-john, humorless toad
jcfiala@cssltd.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 02:31:16 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: Government Code questions
>
> Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:58:13 -0800
> From: "Colin Paddock" <su_liam@ordata.com>
> Subject: Government Code questions
>
> On the subject of government codes would the Roman Republic have been a
> 4.Representative Democracy(I have problems with this) or a 3 or C oligarchy.
>
> Another question I have is about the difference between
> Self-perpetuating Oligarchies and Charismatic Oligarchies as well as between
> Charismatic and Non-charismatic dictatorships. If a charismatic government
> continues to exist after its popular initial leader(s) have passed on does
> it become self-perpetuating? And if a self-perpetuating government comes
> into the hands of a charismatic leader or leaders does it become charismatic
> or does the self-perpetuating label refer to governments that have shown the
> stability to survive beyond their founders? In the latter case charimatic
> states would seem to be by nature young and short-lived because they either
> collapse after the charismatic leadership leaves or become non-charismatic.
> The self-perpetuating forms could be either young governments that took
> power by force or by appealing to an influential minority or charismatic
> states that have survived.
>
> Sorry if this doesn't make much sense. I really am having a hard time
> formulating these questions.
>
What I might suggest is to get a subscription to the online JTAS
http://jtas.sjgames.com and look through the archives. There was a
series of articles by Matt Stevens describing the various traveller
government types, one per article. While they may not exactly match what
everyone has in mind IYTU, they should be a good basis for answering
your basic questions and allowing you to ask more, better ones.
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 05:21:39 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
"Some settlers, yes, but how many? A few tens of thousands of people
arriving around 200 is able to account for any canonical population level in
the Domain in 1100."
Would the desendents of a few tens of thousands of people arriving by
200 been enough to fight the first two Frontier Wars? Or provide Plankwell
with the fleet he needed to have his "chat" with Jaqueline I?
"Any populated world would make enough "noise" to be detectable"
Sorry, about this one. I've been corrected already.
"Also, IIRC, the missions that colonized the Island clusters
>were "backup missions" designed to make sure some Tellurians survived the
>struggle with the Vilani."
The ESA mission left before contact with the Vilani.
"An 8 parsec moat would be a huge obstacle to a jump-1 or jump-2 colony
ship. The logistics of getting a ship that is only 20% fuel tanks across an
8-parsec gap is quite involved and very costly."
Granted, but IMHO opinion the 3I was jump-3 early on, after all the
Rule of Man was. And prior to the Civil War, jump-4 must have generally
available, otherwise the x-boat network couldn't have been as quickly as it
was. A scout squadron with drop tanks could have crossed the moat and let
the Islanders know they were now part of the Imperium. It would have been a
diplomatic annexation backed up with veiled threats, and not a hard fought
conquest. The islanders would have no navies and their armies would not be
set up for planetary defense.
"I think that another thing that is protecting them (the Sword Worlds)
is Imperial Policy aka the Emperor's Whim."
I wholeheartedly agree. The Sword Worlds are a perfect "Bad Example"
that Imperial diplomats can point to. Emperor's Whim is also why the
Islands were never annexed. The Imperium knew about the colonies there but
had some compelling reason to leave them alone. Some sort of research comes
to mind. That's also why they distributed jump drive technology after the
Eldorado incident rather allow the Serendips to set up a pocket empire that
could become a client state.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:16:48 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: ***SNORE***
Could someone please nudge me and wake me up when this whole religion
bucket of codswallop departs the list for more ethereal regions. I thought we
got together to talk about Traveller, fercryinoutloud! You know... Science
Fiction Adventure in the Far Future... that sort of thing.
Sheesh!
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 05:25:26 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
"Maybe because the Imperium either didn't sponsor colonization at all
at the time (was there a Ministry of Colonization mentioned in _Milieu 0_?)
or because whatever colonization they did sponsor went to worlds close to
the worlds the colonists came from (by far the most economic way to do it).
Thus any long-distance colonization was down to private enterprise and they
all preferred going to places from where Scout reports were available
(however sketchy)."
All very good points! They apply if the Imperium believed the Islands
to be uninhabited though.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:32:33 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: More landgrab info...
on 2/7/01 8:46 PM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:
> At 03:10 PM 2/7/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>
>> Anyone heard from Doug recently? I posted the Heya details on
>> http://www.spinwardmarches.com and wanted his OK/comments.
>
> Doug has been fighting the flu. The real, honest-to-God influenza. Since
> I'm already immuno-compromised, this has slowed me way down.
>
> Go ahead and post it Tod, I really don't have the time to do more at this
> time.
Thanks Doug.
Get well soon.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3613
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Traveller-digest Thursday, February 8 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3614
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
FAR TRADER
Re: Anti-RPG (religion and Evolution)
Gun Control
Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Traveller-digest
Re: Islands subsectors
the religion flamewar
Re: Religion, Creationism, SCience et al
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Anti-RPG
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: ***SNORE***
Re: Religion, Creationism, SCience et al
Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
RE: Anti-RPG (religion and Evolution)
RE: Anti-RPG(long)
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
RE: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Re: Anti-RPG(long)
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Boing
Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 00:36:33 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: FAR TRADER
Hello Terry,
Question for you? You mentioned that distance was to be measured in via
the jumps taken enroute right? What is the difference between a Jump path
that travels (numbers represent parsecs) for a Jump2 FarTrader, and the
straight distance?
222131 = 7 jumps (requires a fuel bladder to make the jump 3 transit)
11 parsecs total
As I see it now, there is no real difference between the 11 parsec
distance as measured by straight distance and the ship jumping.
On the other hand, I suppose that one could take a J shaped path to reach a
destination. It would be 6 parsecs by the map, yet 11 parsecs by the "J"
journy. However, that raises a new issue. Suppose you have two stars on a
spinward main. A portion of the Spinward Main makes a "C" shape. As it
turns out however, a Jump 3 ship can make the transit in one jump. (Note:
example taken from 1927 to 2125 on Spinward marches map) Is this a world
that is considered to be 6 parsecs away (for jump 1 ships) or 3 parsecs
away for jump 3 ships?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 05:37:42 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (religion and Evolution)
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com>
"Unless one's dealing with a discipline of things clearly proven (e.g.,
geometry), isn't it proper to teach it in an evaluative manner."
Unfortunately, we haven't been able to successfully teach large numbers
of people to think logically or in an evaluative manner during our entire
history as a civilized species.
Hell, I mortally certain the vast majority of folks spend most of the
lives in a state of pre-consciousness, only operating day to day as Swift's
ingenious machines for "turning drink and food into piss and shit."
Collectively, we are rationalizing animals, not rational ones.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 00:49:13 EST
From: GaryBartz@aol.com
Subject: Gun Control
No...not in real life.
In the classic 3I setting why was gun control linked to law level?
Fully understanding that players want to take direct action in their
adventures (as opposed to role playing a non-violent solution), why not
police patrol response time (something which was greatly improved in the late
60s and 70s in America), or fairness of the local police and courts?
It would seem that guns could have been part of the social structure of the
world, a good example being that in my state a gun can be carried openly, but
no one ever does becasue of social pressure.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 00:53:49 EST
From: JFZeigler@aol.com
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Eh. Time to unsubscribe for a few weeks again. See you guys in March.
- ----------
Jon F. Zeigler: Mathematician, computer geek, amateur historian, freelance
writer, occasional scribbler of bad poetry
"For any statement, no matter how innocuous, there exists a nonempty
set of people who will take offense at it."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:04:46 -0700
From: "samir" <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: Traveller-digest
I apologize in advance, But I am in need of serious real life legal expert
advice/help from anyone in the Navy, please contact me off list.
Thanks
Samir
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:04:30 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
> Would the desendents of a few tens of thousands of people arriving by
>200 been enough to fight the first two Frontier Wars? Or provide Plankwell
>with the fleet he needed to have his "chat" with Jaqueline I?
Well, the few tens of thousand would be per planet, so you should multiply that
by a couple of dozen. Anyway, try taking a world with 20,000 inhabitants and
give them a population increase of 3% pa. for 400 years. And of course there
would be some immigration from the core during those 400 years. Also, some of
the worlds, like Mora and Regina, would've had an additional 125 years of
development. Not to mention the worlds in Deneb which could supply a lot of
immigrants too (Which is why I made them up in the first place; I realized that
the Imperium would need a source of warm bodies closer to the Spinward Marches
to fuel the development of that sector). And there were some worlds with Vargr
populations (Jewell, Grant, and Extolay and very possibly more) which could be
assimilated in much less than 400 years.
> "Also, IIRC, the missions that colonized the Island clusters
>>were "backup missions" designed to make sure some Tellurians survived the
>>struggle with the Vilani."
>
> The ESA mission left before contact with the Vilani.
OK.
> "An 8 parsec moat would be a huge obstacle to a jump-1 or jump-2 colony
>ship. The logistics of getting a ship that is only 20% fuel tanks across an
>8-parsec gap is quite involved and very costly."
>
> Granted, but IMHO opinion the 3I was jump-3 early on, after all the
>Rule of Man was. And prior to the Civil War, jump-4 must have generally
>available, otherwise the x-boat network couldn't have been as quickly as it
>was.
The imperium developed jump-4 in 300. But that doesn't mean that colony
promoters would use jump-4 ships for colony ventures. One feature of jump-4
ships is that they use 45% of the ship's tonnage off the top as opposed to a
jump-1 ship which only uses 12%. If you were to build a jump-4 ship capable of
crossing an 8-parsec gab, you'd have to use 80% for the fuel and 5% for the
drive. That leaves you 15% for maneuver drive, power plant, crew quarters and
payload...
>A scout squadron with drop tanks could have crossed the moat
Drop tanks weren't invented until around 1080.
>...and let the Islanders know they were now part of the Imperium.
But as we've been told, they didn't even know the Island clusters were
inhabited and they weren't even interested enough to includ them in the First
Survey.
>>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> "Maybe because the Imperium either didn't sponsor colonization at all
>at the time (was there a Ministry of Colonization mentioned in _Milieu 0_?)
>or because whatever colonization they did sponsor went to worlds close to
>the worlds the colonists came from (by far the most economic way to do it).
>Thus any long-distance colonization was down to private enterprise and they
>all preferred going to places from where Scout reports were available
>(however sketchy)."
>
> All very good points! They apply if the Imperium believed the Islands
>to be uninhabited though.
They also apply if the logistics of space travel makes the Island clusters an
unattractive goal for settlers.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:05:33 -0800
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: the religion flamewar
From: SwordWorlder <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: <healyzh@aracnet.com>
>> Strange, what I'm seeing is what was once a Christian nation, where now
Christians are ridiculed and in some cases persecuted.
>>
Huh? Last time I checked, SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE was in the
constitution. The Founding Fathers were Deists.
>>But then I also see a Nation where everyone is supposed to be equal, yet
isn't.
>>
Actually, Zane, you Christians are just having to finally follow the same
rules everyone else in America does, and you don't like it very much.
Boo hoo.
There has never been a time in American history when a Buddhist, Wiccan, or
even Jewish believer could give a specifically religious speech at a public
ceremony (anyone can give a speech that is not specifically religious),
expect their scriptures or laws to be posted in the courthouse, expect their
religious traditions to be taught in public school, or expect their
religious laws to be enforced upon the bodies of other people (such as
unhappily pregnant women and gays and bisexuals). However, Christians got
away with it, even though it was unconstitutional, until a number of very
brave people stood up to them. Being in the majority doesn't make you
right, they found out.
>Though this country was indeed founded by people who claimed Christianity,
>
nope, Deists for the most part. Deists are not Christian; they don't
believe in the Trinity, nor in the active participation of God in human
affairs.
>and it was run by Christians, mostly Protestants, for many years, there has
always been a very large population outside of those bounds, most often a
majority. But there is no way to claim anyplace on God's gray Earth as a
Christian nation. Christians have no home or nation here until Christ
himself establishes one.
>
Well, whatever-- but there ARE countries where Christianity is THE official
religion, and I'm sick and tired of the Religious Right trying to make
America into one. Being as how I do not believe Christ himself is going to
be establishing any nations on this planet, I accept these countries'
definition of themselves, just as I'm not interested in hearing how you're a
nice Christian and all those other people who brought us the Inquisition,
the witch burnings and hangings, Operation Rescue, abortion doctor killings,
the Defense of Marriage Act, etc are not REAL Christians, because they sure
thought they were and Jesus ain't here to ask. Whatever.
I'll judge whether I want to be your friend or not on how you behave in my
presence, and if you're nice, I'll be nice to you, too. I don't hate
Christians, and I don't like any other groups that want to institute
theocracy much. But don't expect props on behalf of your religion unless
you're willing to take a stand on all the bullshit it has pulled.
>Wow. It's been a year or so since we had a lively religion flame war.
Winter must be getting some folks stir crazy. I think I'll make some popcorn
and get a front row seat.
>
lol.
If you want to live in a Christian nation I have no objection to your doing
so-- somewhere else. America is the place people went to get away from the
government telling them what to believe. There are plenty of Christian
nations in the world, and I'm damn glad I don't live in one. Among the many
reasons I intend to emigrate is the constant push to try and take over the
US government. It's not high on my list of reasons, because I don't think
it is likely to succeed, but it is on there.
Kiri
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:09:23 -0800
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, SCience et al
Can't you guys spell "science"? Come on, on a Traveller list this should be
no problem.
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
>At 2:07 PM +1300 2/8/01, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
>>Okay, how about we all sit on our hands for a few minutes and think this
one through. This is not only *way* off topic, but potentially as explosive
as the dreaded "Gun Control". May I humbly suggest we drop this.
>>
>I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew. I'm disgusted with the
>unbelievable lameness of you people. Why can't we go back to
>fighting over penis size? This is simply pathetic.
>
Sure Kenji.
You show me yours, and...
hm, maybe that's why that flame war doesn't go very far, not everyone can
participate equally.
I just realized I owe you private mail too. I'm sorry. =( I had an
attack of LiFe. I didn't take Chinese, but I'll have to this summer.
Love,
kiri-chan ^_^
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 20:11:03 +0000
From: Paul Campbell <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
On Tue, Feb 06, 2001 at 08:51:19PM -0500, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > Bugger! Are you still doing that, Loren? The committe work, I mean.
>
> The Committee stil exists, and the work continues, but I haven't taken an
> active part in years.
>
> > Are
> > there still a lot of attacks (above and beyond Frank Chick pamphlets, that
> > is) becasue, to be honest, maybe I've been blissfully ignorant and
> unseeing
> > of any, but I haven't run accross any. (Watch, with my luck, someone will
> > whip out yesterday's Newsweek proclaiming Traveller the newest and most
> > powerful incarnation of Der Teufel.)
>
> Try:
> http://www.chick.com/articles/dnd.asp
The second paragraph. How he expects to retain *any* credibility
after that?
I've been asked a few times in the last few months by people at work,
'What is this roleplaying that you do?' For a joke I should point
them to this.
- --
Paul Campbell (Sourceforge) <kemitix@users.sourceforge.net>
GPG Key fingerprint = 9C4F 31A3 8814 9F94 A533 A979 E63F 0C69 A771 0F24
http://www.kemitix.uklinux.net
jupiter: 8:03pm up 29 days, 9:43, 2 users, load average: 0.31, 0.31, 0.35
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:20:04 -0800
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
From: SwordWorlder <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
>I've found that sci-fi fans are about 90% agnostic, and 95% or more >will
accept the worst science as trumping any scripture, so you are >not going to
get very far with this crowd by attacking their dogma.
As my religious beliefs are Buddhism mixed with a great lot of Shinto and a
little bit of Paganism, why should I accept the scripture of a religion in
which I do NOT believe as an argument against anything?
My response to "it says in the Bible..."
is almost always "So what?"
The Bible is only an authority to people who believe in it. I would not
expect you, who are a Christian, to take seriously a quotation from the
Nihon Shoki or the Lotus Sutra. Please do not expect me to take seriously
a quotation from the Bible. ESPECIALLY not when I'm doing science.
Bad science is bad, but it is science. To argue against it, one must use
the scientific method. You can no more scientifically prove that God
created the world in seven days than I can scientifically prove that the
Emperor of Japan is descended from the Goddess Amaterasu and that all human
beings have a kami nature. The difference is, I'm not trying. Either you
believe it or you don't, and it's no skin off my nose either way.
One cannot argue even the best of religion against the worst of science,
because they are entirely different disciplines.
Kiri ^_^
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:43:26 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
Megan Robertson wrote :
> Back in 1984, I was collared during a UK roleplaying convention (by the
> TSR staff, in the days when such existed!) and made to talk to a radio
> reporter on this. She asked if I thought that playing RPGs could lead
> people "to believe in the existence of the Devil."
>
> The look on her face when I pointed out that Christians believe in the
> EXISTENCE of the Devil was, well, quite a sight :-)
>
> Especially when supported by chapter and verse from the Bible (no copy
> present!) and the further comment that accepting the existence of
> someone and worshipping them were two separate things.
>
> Hmmm... who told TSR I was a preacher...
Promise not to hit me too hard, but when I read that I got this visual in my
mind
of the lines being said by the Vicar of Dibbley.....
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 06:36:16 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
>From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>
You mnetioned your desire to emigrate soon. May I ask which countries
are on your "short" list and why?
Please believe me, this is not to set-up a personal attack on you.
I've traveled extensively for work (the only continent I haven't stepped
foot on is Antartica and I'm working on that) and am always fascinated by
the various cultures and peoples I've met. I personally believe that
Canada's overall "cultural mores" are more to my liking than that of the
USA. Or more accurately, what the USA's has devolved into during my adult
life.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 22:39:22 -0800
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: ***SNORE***
>Could someone please nudge me and wake me up when this whole religion
>bucket of codswallop departs the list for more ethereal regions. I thought we
>got together to talk about Traveller, fercryinoutloud! You know... Science
>Fiction Adventure in the Far Future... that sort of thing.
>
>Sheesh!
>
> - Mark C.
>
> mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
> 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
> Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
**Nudges Mark before it's over just to see the reaction**
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:45:49 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, SCience et al
On 7 Feb 2001, at 22:09, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> Can't you guys spell "science"? Come on, on a Traveller list this should be
> no problem.
Well two points here, 1) I am actually dyslexic, and 2) at the time my
keyboard was recovering from a close encounter with my seven year old
daughter and a soft drink (and the C key was sticking). Uhmm does
resurrection from a keyboard kill count as a miracle?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:45:49 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
On 8 Feb 2001, at 0:53, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> Eh. Time to unsubscribe for a few weeks again. See you guys in March.
I'm giving it another 24 hours for people to pull their heads out of their
backsides and then I'll be joining you
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:14:23 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG (religion and Evolution)
SwordWorlder wrote :
> "The danger of a man rejecting God is not that he will believe in nothing,
> but that he will believe in anything."
The danger of a man accepting a god is that he will accept anything that god
tells him.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:17:39 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG(long)
Bill Rutherford wrote :
> ...wasn't this country allegedly originally run by the Masons? ...and
> aren't there those who claim the Masons not to be Christian at all? [No
> offense to any listmember Masons; just an observation on what
> some believe...]
No, it was run by Adam Weishaupt, once of the Bavarian Illuminati
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 07:19:01 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
"Well, the few tens of thousand would be per planet, so you should
multiply that by a couple of dozen..."
I'm sorry but I see a far greater colonization effort than the one you
propose. And with far fewer Vilani refugee worlds seeded through Deneb. I
think of the colonization "Behind the Claw" as one of those huge "movements
of the people" that occur in history. As for any Vargr settlements in the
area providing warm bodies, I believe they would have been run off, not
assimilated. No material points to large Vargr populations in either the
Marches or Deneb. If the pre-existing Vargr worlds had provided settlers,
we'd see their daughter colonies in the guise of many more Vargr majority
worlds.
IMHO, the antebellum Imperium is a vibrant, thrusting society whose
overexpansion nearly leads to it's destruction. They would and could make a
huge effort as part of their interstellar "manifest destiny". How else can
we explain all the simulteaneous Pacification Campaigns, recontact missions,
colonizing efforts, wars, and such stuff? The 3I did an amazing amount of
stuff in it's first 300 years.
Cleon sold people a dream as much as he did trade benefits. The
possibility of participating in the huge land rush across the Great Rift
might have been a nice carrot for luring worlds into the Imperium. Some
worlds might have been excited by the prospect outfitting colonists. Others
might have looked forward to being able to ship off their malcontents.
IMHO, the return of an interstellar society among the worlds of the
Long Night kicked off a wide epidemic of the "itchy foot syndrome" and the
Imperium had only one frontier to abosrb this restlessness. Anyone who
wanted to chuck it all in and start all over had to go behind the "Claw",
everywhere else was already settled to one degree or another.
About whether jump-3 or jump-4 ships could tackle the Rift and visit
the Islands, I designed a jump-3 High guard squadron to move 1000dT per ship
over a 3 jump/nine parsec route for the ct-starships list. The cost was
about one third of a single Island world's TCS budget. Pricey, yes, but a
drop in the bucket for the Imperium. The squadron included two deep space
depots and the tankers to fuel them.
I think the Imperium could have reached the Islands. I also believe
that there would have been military, economic, transportation, and
communication reasons and benefits to annex or settle the Cluster. The only
"reason" I can come up with for this not happening is some over riding
Imperial need for it not too, and not because it would be too hard or not
worth it.
But that's just my 0.02Cr. 8^)
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:53:24 +1100
From: "Jeffrey Michael Malone" <NarellePark@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
In broad terms, something sort-of similar happened in 1967 on the USS
Forestal off the coast of North Vietnam. A rocket on an aircraft was
accidently illuminated by one of the ship's radars, which triggered its
launch. The rocket hit another aircraft, and the net result was a fire that
burnt for nearly a day and killed 134 people and destroyed 26 aircraft.
An interesting corollary of Moore's Law (or rather, its technical
under-pinnings), is that as electonics become more miniturised, they also
become more susceptible to natural, accidental or deliberate interference.
(On the above, see the Nov 2000 edn of Journal of Electronic Defense at:
www.jedonline.com)
ObTrav: the (increasing) vulnerability (and pervasiveness) of traditional
electronic technology makes RF/HPM weapons increasingly more attractive from
Tech 8 onwards. This could lead several ways:
1. Shielding and back-ups (the 'fib' computers in HG, as an example)
2. Spur the development of alternate electronic/computer technologies
(quantum computing, biological computers, others?)
3. Rejection of electronic technologies in favour of other solutions
(nano-tech, MEMs)
4. Rejection of technology per se (turning back the clock).
Opinions?
J.M. Malone
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:49:22 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Sort of like the survivalists heading for the hills after the war
starts.
I understand your sentiment, and unfortunatley this seems to have
touched off a very emotive issue here, and I can't see it going anywhere
but downhill!
Could we possible turn the list off for a week, then restart?
Those people who want to argue religion vs science, could you move this
off the list? Start a yahoo group and have it out there...... don't
bother telling us the results, we know what it is going to be....
Creationists/Religious types - you can't win this!
Evolutionists/Scientific types - you can't win this!
Both of you - The TML isn't the forum!
Obtrav: I dunno... can anyone think of one?
- -----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance [mailto:a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz]
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 5:46 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
On 8 Feb 2001, at 0:53, JFZeigler@aol.com wrote:
> Eh. Time to unsubscribe for a few weeks again. See you guys in
March.
I'm giving it another 24 hours for people to pull their heads out of
their
backsides and then I'll be joining you
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 00:05:27 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG(long)
>Subject: Re: Anti-RPG(long)
...
>Strange, what I'm seeing is what was once a Christian nation, where now
>Christians are ridiculed and in some cases persecuted. But then I also see
>a Nation where everyone is supposed to be equal, yet isn't.
"a Nation where everyone is supposed to be equal"
Is that the former Soviet Union that's being referred to, or China? :>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 00:48:05 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
...
>edge that eventually failed. The 3I would have known that the systems were
>there and that they were populated.
> As for the possibilty they might be empty, there were colonist
>travelling 100's of parsecs to systems in Dnenbe or the Marches. "Empty"
>Islands systems a bit closer to home should have been coveted, despite a 6
>or 8 parsec "moat'
The first point isn't strictly proven, but the latter is (IMHO) a pain.
And yet some of the OTU history implies very strongly that deep-space
jumping isn't practical for NPC's :|
>"2. The Imperium is incredibly slow to do anything. Maybe one branch of the
>Imperial government intended to colonize, but before they got around to it
...
> This I can believe. The Islands might have got put on the back burner
>and "forgot" about. Perhaps it had something to do with the pro and anti
>Solomani Movement factions at court?
That might also explain the multi-polar solution - if the Serendips
were overlords and went Sollie then it's a problem, but the piranha-
pool solution pretty much prevents them from ever accomplishing much
more than establishing a postal union, if that :)
Steven Hudson
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:43:54 -0000
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Boing
In mail Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
><minor nit>
> > To anyone under the mistaken belief that Boing had *anything* to do with
>the
>it's Boeing
></minor nit>
>
>Unless that was intentional.
>
>Tod
It was intentional - like calling BAE Systems (this weeks' name*) "British
Waste-O'-Space" or "Messy Beast", and other similar nicknames for all the
'great' aircraft manufacturers (except MiG - but I'm open to ideas:-).
Unfortunately I forget that not everybody knows who (or what) I really
mean...
What happens IYTU when a Megacorp takes over smaller companies? Do all the
employees transfer happily, or do some work against their new employers'
best interests? And how much confusion arises when people use nicknames
that other people don't know?
*This was intended as a joke. Unfortunately an increasing number of
companies in the UK seem to think spending a small fortune on "rebranding"
makes up for *not* spending money on real investment in people, hardware
and/or software...
Jeff
"I say what it occurs to me to say when I think I hear people say things.
More I cannot say." - The Man in The Shack.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:59:33 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
[I know I shouldn't get involved. Had to, though...]
On Wed, 7 Feb 2001, James Jensen wrote:
> Zane, I'm with you. Evolution *is* a religion. It requires you to believe
> something to be true that is not proven. I'm not against it being taught in
> schools per se, but I believe that it should be taught as the *theory* that
> it is. A *THEORY* folks!
This seems to be a matter of definition.
I define "religion" as a stricture which is given by some authority, and
which is not changeable.
The term "evolution" is related to the term "science". "Science" is a
mishmash of theories. One of the point of scientific theories is that they
_can_not_ be proven true. They can, of course, be proven false.
Other point of science is that (on an idealistic level, in my experience
not in elementary teaching) it is modifiable. If something new comes up
which is not explained by current theories the theories and the new
something is examined and theory is (again, idealistically) modified so
that it accommodates the new something, or the theory is ditched.
Case, see electromagnetic radiation and ether.
A theory is not scientific unless it can be disproven.
How many times Creationism has changed its principles after new facts?
How can you disprove it?
You are very right in that scientific teaching should be taught in
schools. Still, in my view, scientific theories and religious theories are
a completely different thing.
On the matter of believing :
Everybody must, on some level, believe almost everything.
How do you know that the world in which you seem to live is true?
All I can be sure of is that somewhere is something that thinks my
thoughts. (If I get deeper, even that might not be true. Might be useful
to read theories
I admit that we humans are wired so that we easily take the world
for granted, it makes interacting with it much easier. B-)
(Yes, most of the time I take the universe for granted. This is just for
times of philosophical discussion.)
(And yes, sometimes I like to play the Creationist game :
The world was created 9 am last Thursday. It was created with all the
memories and thoughts and things, just as everybody remembers it. Now, how
is this different from regular Creationism? How do you prove the
difference or disprove the theory?)
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3614
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3615
Date: | 2/8/01 5:41:23 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Thursday, February 8 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3615
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
re: Islands subsectors
Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
more humour?
re: FAR TRADER Economics
Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Government Code questions
Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
[OT] Big Bang
RE: [OT] Big Bang
Re: 52 million ton hull!
Re: Boing
RE: Anti-RPG
RE: Anti-RPG (religion and Evolution)
RE: Anti-RPG
Vargr Governments in Meshan Sector
Re: [TML] Anti-RPG
Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
RE: Tim Little and Procmail
Re: More landgrab info...
Re: Government Code questions
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 01:06:14 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Islands subsectors
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Islands subsectors
...
> T:NE's RSB has maintenance starved vampire fleets doing it easily
>enough and often enough to destroy Island worlds. The vampires supposedly
>do it often enough that it forced the Regency to annex the area for
>quarantine reasons.
> So, why couldn't the Third Imperium?
FWIW, TNE had different takes on a number of things, and the sudden
omnipresence of deep-space refuelling is extremely jarring with the
OTU history exemplified in various of the wargames.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:08:35 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
> "I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew. I'm disgusted with the
> unbelievable lameness of you people. Why can't we go back to
> fighting over penis size? This is simply pathetic.
> Signing off,
> Kenji"
> Well, I for one didn't want to make you all feel you were lacking...
> Larsen E. "The Human Tripod" Whipsnade
Hey, it is not the size, but skill. B-P
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:13:34 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Jeffrey Michael Malone wrote:
> ObTrav: the (increasing) vulnerability (and pervasiveness) of traditional
> electronic technology makes RF/HPM weapons increasingly more attractive from
> Tech 8 onwards. This could lead several ways:
>
No, it does not.
Ever wonder why the Traveller computers are so big? Well, it is all
protection, as larger things are less suspectible to jamming and
disturbances.
B-)
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 01:23:43 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: more humour?
>Obtrav: I dunno... can anyone think of one?
i) People wonder why the Islands are always at risk of war?
ii) People wonder why the 3I doesn't even try to keep the
lid screwed down really tight?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 01:26:28 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: FAR TRADER Economics
>From: hal@buffnet.net
>Subject: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
...
>Shipper: I think I will take the ground delivery. It isn't worth paying 3
>times as much to get it there overnight...
>
> In general, I would have thought that the faster services would be able
>to charge more money for the speed bonus. In short, how would you resolve
>the problem I've set before you? <grin> (no fair saying "I won't do a
>thing, bleh...")
The better comparison is perhaps "hmm, the steamer costs significantly
more per day to operate, but moves cargo twice as fast, for a lower unit
charge per distance. Okay, steamer it is..."
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:24:48 +1100
From: "Jeffrey Michael Malone" <NarellePark@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
Hmm...I thought this was the very point I was making...extensive shielding
(=extra mass) would be a response to the potential threat of RF/HPM weapons,
as well as environmental EM threats.
In any case, I wasn't thinking solely of the space combat environment. One
thing that came to mind was something like the ARPOBDIF (Anti-Robotic
Positronic Brain Disrupter Field) weapons that were in Space Opera, though
working entirely within the EM spectrum, rather than with 'positrons' (or
whatever notional particles might disrupt a positronic brain). Or other
sorts of equipment...not everything is going to be shielded to the gunnels
like computers optimised for spacecraft.
J.M.M.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Mikko V. I. Parviainen <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 8:13 PM
Subject: Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
> On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Jeffrey Michael Malone wrote:
> > ObTrav: the (increasing) vulnerability (and pervasiveness) of
traditional
> > electronic technology makes RF/HPM weapons increasingly more attractive
from
> > Tech 8 onwards. This could lead several ways:
> >
>
> No, it does not.
>
> Ever wonder why the Traveller computers are so big? Well, it is all
> protection, as larger things are less suspectible to jamming and
> disturbances.
>
> B-)
>
> --
> +++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
> <-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
> >-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
> <>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 01:33:43 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
...
>conquest. The islanders would have no navies and their armies would not be
>set up for planetary defense.
Not for a generation or so, while the 3I and its corps installed the
infrastructure that would make the Islands an incredible fortress. Boy,
I hope that they do a _real_ thorough indoctrination job on them...
...and that means better than their handling of Ilelish :|
...
> I wholeheartedly agree. The Sword Worlds are a perfect "Bad Example"
>that Imperial diplomats can point to.
But are they less trouble on the outside?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 01:51:03 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
...
>Canada's overall "cultural mores" are more to my liking than that of the
>USA. Or more accurately, what the USA's has devolved into during my adult
>life.
We're happy to accept more engineers*, but we'd prefer Brits. OTOH,
we'd be thrilled over-all if we could exchange a slightly used US-born
politician for a few of you :>
*to prove your credentials, you may have to hang something off of
a bridge...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 21:02:02 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: Government Code questions
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
>
> After watching "The Jerry Springer Show", the idea of not letting most
> people vote is strangely soothing. 8^)
>
>
I sometimes thing that the showing of the "The Jerry Springer Show" might be
sponsered by one of our government departments to encourage nationalistic
feelings....'Look at the Goofy Americans' sorta thing...how many countries could
support a show like this?
ObTrav: How transportable are a planet's entertainment programs? Australia gets
a lot of American T.V. shows...would a (sub)-sectors high pop/ high tech planets
dominate the smaller planets entertainment? How many planets are showing re-runs
of 'Regina Highport Dock Police' or such?
Other Rob
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 02:55:02 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
"James Jensen" <cheeb0@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Theory of Evolution
> - ---------------------------------------
> Founded on the fact that there are similarities between humans and
> apes.
True.
> Meant to open up to possibility that humans could have come about
> without a Divine Being.
Wrong
> Meant to disprove the existence of God.
No.
Most religions, including most Christian faiths have no trouble with
evolution. You can make the book of Genesis look like a very good
parable of current theories of cosmology and evolution. Of course,
you need to get away from the idea that 7 days means 168 hours
and not some longer time period like say 15 billion years (1day/per
2 billion years perhaps).
Perhaps God set the whole thing going and mostly let it go, except
maybe for talking to some folks and such. Perhaps God is more
concerned with humanity that with having to determine planetary
orbits or creating animals which can be set to evolve naturally.
Also remember that modern cosmology would also need to be
disproven if "creation science" is to have a hope of being believable.
I have a minor in physics and can tell you that these days
cosmology is very well defined. We know the whole story back to
a few million years after the big bang.
The current scientific explanations for the origins of the universe
and the evolution of Terran life in no way contradicts the basic
tenants of Christianity. They do contradict the tenants of a small
subset known as biblical literalism. However, given that different
translations and editions of the bible say remarkably different
things (ever read the Gospel of Thomas?) I can't see that biblical
literalism makes much sense (unless you are like the Chick
publications folks who believe the King James bible was divinely
inspired and all other modern version are tools of the Devil [no, I'm
neither kidding nor exaggerating]).
> Has been so far impossible to prove because it has not been
> observed.(!)
Untrue. Between more recent experiments with bacteria to the
older one with a moth population adapting to changes in the color
of the trees they lived on (caused by reductions in air pollution) by
selecting for moths which were lighter in color (ie in a few moth
generations the moths had gone from being 90% black to 90%
white), it's been pretty well proven.
<snip>
>* It has been proven that we could have come from a single set of
>parents, and recent tests with genetics and the rate of mutation
>within a certain stuff (name not remembered) placed the first
>woman at 6,000 years ago (too soon for evolution).
1) That would be the first fully modern human (as opposed to the
first hominid). This idea in no way contradicts current theories of
evolution.
2) It was 60,000 years ago.
3) This is based upon mitochondrial DNA evidence and says
nothing about the first couple, only the first (fully human) woman.
Mitochondrial DNA is inherited only from one's mother.
>Now for some odd tidbits:
>* My grandfather once found fossils on a large mountain in Las
>Vegas. They were sea creatures.
Does the term continental drift mean anything? Please, for pity's
sake, read some basic books on geology and biology written by
actual scientists. I can suggest some if you like. Perhaps
someone here can suggest some written by a scientist who is
known to be a Christian? The answers to your comments are all
there. Also, take my word for it, many scientists I've met are also
religious, and a number of them are Christians (heck both Darwin
and Huxley were Christians).
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:05:53 -0000
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk>
Subject: [OT] Big Bang
> Oh, and for the
> record, here's what I
> believe. I fully believe in Evolution as the mechanism for
> life on Earth.
> However, I do believe in a "god" that started the Big Bang.
> The truth of
> the matter is simple. We can get evidence for Evolution, but
> we have NO
> idea how the universe started. The Big Bang is as valid as
> God in my eyes,
> and until evidence IS gathered on the start of the universe,
> I will not
> change my opinion. See? I have faith too...
>
> - -Jake Bernstein
> University of Washington, Department of Genetics
> apoc527@u.washington.edu
I had an argument with my Father about a year ago on this very subject.
He had a similar view to you in that he could accept everything after
the big bang happened without Gods involvement, but that God had to be
there to 'light the blue touchpaper' and set off the bang.
"Why?" I asked. "Because I can't accept that the big bang just
'happened'", he replied. "So what created God? Where did God come from?"
I asked. "God just exists, he doesn't need anything to create him, he
just *is*." was the reply. "But if you can accept the existence of a
God, who just 'happened', who's only role is to set off the big bang,
then why can't you just accept that the big bang 'just happened' without
the necessity of invoking a Supreme Red-Button-Pusher?"
Effectively the big bang *is* God, in as much as it created everything
in our universe...
Matt
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:14:45 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: [OT] Big Bang
>>
>> - -Jake Bernstein
>> University of Washington, Department of Genetics
>> apoc527@u.washington.edu
>
>I had an argument with my Father about a year ago on this very subject.
>He had a similar view to you in that he could accept everything after
>the big bang happened without Gods involvement, but that God had to be
>there to 'light the blue touchpaper' and set off the bang.
>
>"Why?" I asked. "Because I can't accept that the big bang just
>'happened'", he replied. "So what created God? Where did God
>come from?"
>I asked. "God just exists, he doesn't need anything to create him, he
>just *is*." was the reply. "But if you can accept the existence of a
>God, who just 'happened', who's only role is to set off the big bang,
>then why can't you just accept that the big bang 'just
>happened' without
>the necessity of invoking a Supreme Red-Button-Pusher?"
>
>Effectively the big bang *is* God, in as much as it created everything
>in our universe...
>
I rather like the 'Friends of Wigner' theory from Stephen Baxter's Timelike
Infinity, which places God at the end of time and defines Him as the entity
whose observation collapses and finally resolves the totally of quantum
uncertainty.
The idea is that if you place a Shroedinger Box and an observer into a box
and seal the whole lot up the entirity becomes a sealed quantum system and
is uncretain. Since this can be applied recursively there has to be an
observer whose observation collapses the entire wave form of the universe
and resolves it. Such an observer could be said to have all knowledge and
all power...and is therefore God. I don't believe it to be the case, but I
really like the idea.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 12:44:32 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: 52 million ton hull!
Ben Aaronovitch wrote:
> Actually I've gone for 18 spherical hulls of 3 million dtons each arranged in
> two rosettes of 9 each to form a sort of torus.
With rosette I assume that you mean that they are equally spaced along
the same orbit?
> One thing I'm still bothered about is whether Trin's ring system would prevent
> me from placing it in GEO. (Even though the ring is much closer in the particle
> density may be quite high at GEO I don't know).
>
> And what the hell are these glittery particles anyway, how come they glitter.
> Can't be ice we're too close into the sun.
My guesses:
1) Some kind of metal-rich fragments
2) Glass
3) Some kind of crystal
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 12:46:11 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Boing
Jeff Rowse wrote:
> It was intentional - like calling BAE Systems (this weeks' name*) "British
> Waste-O'-Space" or "Messy Beast", and other similar nicknames for all the
> 'great' aircraft manufacturers (except MiG - but I'm open to ideas:-).
Mashed into Ground?
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:48:52 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
>
>>
>> Let's be fair Don, you are generalising a bit. I hear a
>certain Traveller
>> writer found God a couple of years ago, and more power to him for it.
>>
>> Dean
>
>Which sector was he/she in?
>;-)
>
<Groan> :)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:53:35 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG (religion and Evolution)
>
>As I've said before, Evolution isn't proven, however it's far
>more valid a
>theory than Creationism. The thing that sets evolution apart from
>Creationism is that you don't HAVE to accept someone else's
>word to see the
>evidence. With training, you can do it yourself. Reducing
>science to a
>different form of religion is downright silly. Without getting TOO
>philosophical, science is based off physical facts and REAL, TANGIBLE
>evidence. Religion is based off of what someone else tells
>you when you're
>young. Hence, Evolution, which has real, tangible evidence
>(whether or not
>you choose to misinterpret that evidence is up to you) which makes it a
>scientific theory, NOT a religion.
Where does that leave Gnosticism (ie direct experience of the divine, in
whatever form)? Are gnostic experiences as scientifically valid as the field
of psychology?
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:01:53 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
>
>The rates of suicide and violent crime is no higher among RPG
>players than among any other section of the population (somewhat
>lower IIRC). Some nutballs, get attracted to the fringe, but IMHO,
>the fringe doesn't make anyone a nutball. Also, the vast majority of
>nutballs in gaming are totally harmless to both themselves and
>others. On average, extreme sports fans are more likely to end up
>being violent towards others (likely because of the dynamics of the
>two particular hobbies, one hobby involves large crowds of highly
>emotional people, and the other doesn't).
I assume 'extreme sports fans' means 'highly dedicated enthusiasts of team
sports, like football' rather than snowboarders and skydivers? :)
<snip a worthy discussion by John>
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:15:52 -0500
From: "Alberti, Joe (TRANS)" <Joe.Alberti@Trans.ge.com>
Subject: Vargr Governments in Meshan Sector
Is there any information written on the following Vargr governments in
Meshan Sector:
17 th Disjuncture (interesting name)
Opposition Alliance
Voekhaeb Society
First Fleet of Dzo
Joe Alberti
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:48:21 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: [TML] Anti-RPG
>That what religion is all about. It is a belief system about
[...]
Thank you all. You have induced me to do something I've been meaning
to do for ages -- learn how to implement a 'procmail' filter to get
rid of rubbish. 600 items of spam over the last few months weren't
inducement enough, but 90 religion posts in 10 hours were.
Just thought the participants on all sides would be pleased to know
that I consider their contributions to the thread to be more
irritating than "MAKE $$$4$ FaST!!1!".
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 06:55:40 -0600
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Larsen E. Whipsnade
>
> From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
> "I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew. I'm disgusted with
> the unbelievable lameness of you people. Why can't we go
> back to fighting over penis size? This is simply pathetic.
> Signing off,
> Kenji"
>
>
> Well, I for one didn't want to make you all feel you were
> lacking...
>
>
> Larsen E. "The Human Tripod" Whipsnade
Naw. The only person who can make us feel lacking is
ourselves.
Personally, though, I believe the Vargr Church of the Chosen
Ones is on the right track. Evidence to the contrary is
obviously an Imperial-based conspiracy to maintain the
shaky dominance of humaniti throughout the Domain of Deneb.
David
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:49:36 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Tim Little and Procmail
You've shamed me. No more posts from me.
Dean
>
>
>>That what religion is all about. It is a belief system about
>[...]
>
>Thank you all. You have induced me to do something I've been meaning
>to do for ages -- learn how to implement a 'procmail' filter to get
>rid of rubbish. 600 items of spam over the last few months weren't
>inducement enough, but 90 religion posts in 10 hours were.
>
>Just thought the participants on all sides would be pleased to know
>that I consider their contributions to the thread to be more
>irritating than "MAKE $$$4$ FaST!!1!".
>
>
>--
>IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+
>va++ as+ so- kk--
>Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 13:23:03
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: More landgrab info...
>Thanks Doug.
>
>Get well soon.
>
>Tod
I second the motion...
Mike
- ----Original Message Follows----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Subject: Re: More landgrab info...
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 21:32:33 -0800
on 2/7/01 8:46 PM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:
> At 03:10 PM 2/7/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>
>> Anyone heard from Doug recently? I posted the Heya details on
>> http://www.spinwardmarches.com and wanted his OK/comments.
>
> Doug has been fighting the flu. The real, honest-to-God influenza.
Since
> I'm already immuno-compromised, this has slowed me way down.
>
> Go ahead and post it Tod, I really don't have the time to do more at this
> time.
Thanks Doug.
Get well soon.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 13:40:48 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: Government Code questions
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>>From: "Colin Paddock" <su_liam@ordata.com>
> If a charismatic government
>continues to exist after its popular initial leader(s) have passed on does
>it become self-perpetuating?"
I'd say the key words are "enjoying the support of the citizens". If
the government is popular and generally respected, it's "Charismatic".
If it rules purely by inertia and/or terror, it's "self-perpetuating".
> I always felt that IISS 1st and 2nd Survey data was not meant by the
>Imperium to be "set in stone". Instead, it was a snap-shot of the entire
>Imperium at a particualr moment in time.
Plus, it's a very subjective classification, depending entirely on the
observer's own political views and value-judgements. Case in point:
> As for your quetions on the Roman Republic, it was a self perpetuating
>oligarchy, not a representative democracy. Remember the members of
>Senatorial and Equestrian classes who met and voted on policy were not
>ELECTED to those positions. Instead, they were either born or appointed to
>them. Conversely, the Zhodani Consulate has a government code of 4.
>Although the members of their councils are all nobles, those nobles are
>elected to their seats, albeit by other nobles. It's a representative
>democracy with a very limited franchise.
I'd say that both the Roman Republic and Zhodani Consulate had the
same form of government; classifying them differently is purely a
political decision.
Roman officials (consuls, tribunes, etc) were elected by an assembly
of all Roman citizens. (The franchise was not equal - certain
peoples' votes counted more than others). Being a Roman citizen was a
hereditary status, but there were ways for non-citizens to gain that
status. An increasing number of inhabitants of the Roman empire
(small "e") were not citizens - they were either slaves, or
foreigners/socii ("allies").
Zhodani officials are elected by all Zhodani nobles. Being a Zhodani
noble is a hereditary status (since all noble children are psionically
trained, regardless of their actual psionic ability) but there are
ways for non-nobles to gain that status (being psionically tested and
becoming an intendant.) However, if we assume that psionic ability is
genetic/hereditary, and that nobles generally marry other nobles, then
over the millennia that the Zhodani have used this system, I would
think that psionic ability has been pretty well concentrated in the
ranks of the nobility. Finding a prole with the power to become an
intendant must be a pretty rare event - not unheard of, but very
uncommon. Most Zhodani are non-voting, non-citizen proles. Calling
such a government a "representative democracy" is evidence that
either:
a) the IISS investigators only spoke to nobles.
b) the Zhodani proles were only too happy to say that their
government, which none of them voted for or has any influence over, is
a representative democracy. The IISS team, strangely enough, took
them at their word without questioning them. (Or at least,
remembering that they questioned them. Some of them may occasionally
have vague doubts surfacing in their mind when they look at the
Library Data rating of "Government Type: 4", but such thoughts quickly
slip away leaving only a warm fuzzy glow.)
Stephen
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3615
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3616
Date: | 2/8/01 8:15:50 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Thursday, February 8 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3616
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Anti-RPG(long)
Re: [TML] Procmail
RE: Science Fiction (long reply)
RE: [TML] Procmail
Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
RE: Rob Davenports 'Boring' thoughts (was Science Fiction)
Re: Snappy questions
RE: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
RE: 52 million ton hull!
RE: Snappy questions
Flamewars IYTU
GT Cargo question
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Government Code questions
Hinterworlds
Re: GT Cargo question
Re: Flamewars IYTU/Rebellions - longish
Re: Flamewars IYTU
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 13:40:47 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG(long)
"SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com> writes:
>Though this country was indeed founded by people who claimed Christianity,
Actually, this country was founded by people who worshipped Woden,
Thunor, Tiw, Frey and their companions.
Oh, wait, by "this country" did you mean the one *you* live in, rather
than the one *I* live in?
;-)
Stephen
(and it is ironic that these days, there seems to be rather more
religious intolerance in the country the Puritans founded than in the
ones they left)
ObTrav: *many* of the colony worlds in the Marches seem to have been
settled by religious groups looking for a place to practice their
beliefs unhindered. What have they mutated into?
How would the Imperium react to a world which controlled a colony or
two of its own in order to conduct "Flower Wars" against them,
gathering captives for sacrifice to their Sun God?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:07:46 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Procmail
>Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:49:36 -0000
>From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
>Subject: RE: Tim Little and Procmail
>
>You've shamed me. No more posts from me.
>
>Dean
>
> >
> >
> >>That what religion is all about. It is a belief system about
> >[...]
> >
> >Thank you all. You have induced me to do something I've been meaning
> >to do for ages -- learn how to implement a 'procmail' filter to get
> >rid of rubbish. 600 items of spam over the last few months weren't
> >inducement enough, but 90 religion posts in 10 hours were.
> >
> >Just thought the participants on all sides would be pleased to know
> >that I consider their contributions to the thread to be more
> >irritating than "MAKE $$$4$ FaST!!1!".
Same here, actually. :/
ObTrav (I): How the heck would you put a procmail filter on an xboat
message? Would it be like a telegram that you would have to sign for, not
knowing what it is? Methinks it would be very much like that, but wouldn't
there be a way to tell the 'post office,' "Look, I'm not accepting anything
from so-and-so."
ObTrav (II): So what would a mailing list accross a subsector look like...?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:12:57 -0000
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Science Fiction (long reply)
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Mark Preston
Sent: Wednesday, 7 February 2001 3:54 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Science Fiction (long reply)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Ray Rangel
> Sent: 06 February 2001 03:56
> To: Traveller
> Subject: Science Fiction
>
> I have been in the computer industry for over 20 years. In
> that time I have gone from bootstrapping computers using
> toggle switches in groups of threes (facilitating entry of
> octal digits) to booting off of my CD-ROM using laser
> technology.
>
"Precisely how many toggle flips in toto are involved in this entire
procedure?"
Mystery Men
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:19:17 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Procmail
>
>Same here, actually. :/
>
>ObTrav (I): How the heck would you put a procmail filter on an xboat
>message? Would it be like a telegram that you would have to
>sign for, not
>knowing what it is? Methinks it would be very much like that,
>but wouldn't
>there be a way to tell the 'post office,' "Look, I'm not
>accepting anything
>from so-and-so."
Probably not a problem...I personally see the Xboat system as being
something like Pony Express in the 1800s...it'd be too expensive to use for
advertising mailshots and discussion threads. For interstellar junkmail/mail
lists you'd probably need very-high bandwidth FTL comms and computer
networking. Companies and Corps could use 20th Century advertising
techniques planet-side without a problem, and only use the X-boat system to
transmit new content to their regional HQs to be rolled out as the regional
director sees fit...usually on a planet-by-plnet basis depending upon local
tech levels and sales data balanced against expected revenue generated by
advertising. If advertising is more expensive than what you expect to get
back, you don't advertise. Junk email is great (from a telemarketters
viewpoint) because to all intents and purposes sending an email is free and
automation allows it to be quick and easy.
And this is now a thread on communications and business, not religion, so
it's OK for me to write about :)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:27:58 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
>At 2:07 PM +1300 2/8/01, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> >Okay, how about we all sit on our hands for a few minutes and think this
> >one through. This is not only *way* off topic, but potentially as
> explosive as
> >the dreaded "Gun Control". May I humbly suggest we drop this.
>I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew. I'm disgusted with the
>unbelievable lameness of you people. Why can't we go back to
>fighting over penis size? This is simply pathetic.
Length, width or simply volume?
Oh ya, just were *do* the Sayat fit into all of this?
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else
wants `em.
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:23:44 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
>Okay, how about we all sit on our hands for a few minutes and think this
>one through. This is not only *way* off topic, but potentially as
explosive as
>the dreaded "Gun Control". May I humbly suggest we drop this.
hhmmm...don't you mean the 'dreaded "Victim disarmament"' thread?
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else
wants `em.
A well-educated electorate being necessary to the prosperity of a free
state, the
right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:29:14 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Rob Davenports 'Boring' thoughts (was Science Fiction)
>
>Longwinded (cough, "boring", cough) thoughts I removed from above to
>spare you. Read if you want. :)
>
>[1] I won't go on about the use of cutlasses - but *I* like them,
>especially as I read Patrick O'Brien's Aubrey/Maturin series, and the
>Honor Harrington series.
>
Me too. I've found the best way to encourage swordplay is to discourage
gunplay...maybe by inserting engery deflection technology (nice idea, but
not feasable in Traveller) or by increasing time between shots. If energy
weapons need 60 seconds to recharge their batteries you've got yourself
flintlock blasters!
>[2] Some of the discussions of slugthrower in recent days (I'm
>perpetually catching up on this list) have been enlightening and give
>me new regard for the venerable slugthrower, which is great.
If you use GURPS at all, check out UT2. Electrothermal slug throwers!
>
>[4] The article posited "growth quickening advances" around TL11 or 13
>that reduced the time it took to regrow body parts. That'd be an
>interesting discovery to think about what other implications it might
>have. What age would be "old age" when you can get new organs in a few
>weeks or months? 70? 90? To stick with the feel of the TU I'd think
>you might say it's possible to get these organs and stay alive, but not
>much longer and not without possible reductions in activity level,
>something like that.
Brain and neural tissue degeneration presents a limit to immortality through
transplantation. Medico Rob could advise better on this than I.
>
>[5] I'm still pondering shields after my posting a few months ago;
>not ST or SW type, but like above, something inbetween current and
>Traveller TL15 - maybe just as shields to protect space travellers
>from radiation or something. But I have not collected much data yet
>to post. :}
Perhaps some kind of deflector that would hold a bubble of atmosphere around
the traveller in question. You could deflect away a great deal of the rads
and trust the pitiful shreds of gas around you to soak up some more. Not a
long term solution to leaving a ship due to explaosive decompression.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 05:34:24 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Snappy questions
"Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> wrote
> > Well, I for one didn't want to make you all feel you were lacking...
> > Larsen E. "The Human Tripod" Whipsnade
> Hey, it is not the size, but skill. B-P
> Ever wonder why the Traveller computers are so big? Well, it is all
> protection, as larger things are less suspectible to jamming and
> disturbances.
Is there a connection between these two consecutive messages? :)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:32:50 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
>
>Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
>>At 2:07 PM +1300 2/8/01, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
>> >Okay, how about we all sit on our hands for a few minutes
>and think this
>> >one through. This is not only *way* off topic, but potentially as
>> explosive as
>> >the dreaded "Gun Control". May I humbly suggest we drop this.
>>I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew. I'm disgusted with the
>>unbelievable lameness of you people. Why can't we go back to
>>fighting over penis size? This is simply pathetic.
>
>Length, width or simply volume?
>
>Oh ya, just were *do* the Sayat fit into all of this?
Remember this is Traveller, Mark. Penis size should be measured by tonnage
of liquid hydrogen it displaces.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:35:38 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: 52 million ton hull!
>
>Ben Aaronovitch wrote:
>> Actually I've gone for 18 spherical hulls of 3 million dtons
>each arranged in
>> two rosettes of 9 each to form a sort of torus.
>
>With rosette I assume that you mean that they are equally spaced along
>the same orbit?
>
>> One thing I'm still bothered about is whether Trin's ring
>system would prevent
>> me from placing it in GEO. (Even though the ring is much
>closer in the particle
>> density may be quite high at GEO I don't know).
>>
>> And what the hell are these glittery particles anyway, how
>come they glitter.
>> Can't be ice we're too close into the sun.
>
>My guesses:
>
>1) Some kind of metal-rich fragments
>2) Glass
>3) Some kind of crystal
1) Loose sequins.
2) Dandruff.
3) The result of drinking from the Chief Engineer's still.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:36:47 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Snappy questions
>
>"Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> wrote
>
>> > Well, I for one didn't want to make you all feel you
>were lacking...
>> > Larsen E. "The Human Tripod" Whipsnade
>
>> Hey, it is not the size, but skill. B-P
>
>> Ever wonder why the Traveller computers are so big? Well, it is all
>> protection, as larger things are less suspectible to jamming and
>> disturbances.
>
>Is there a connection between these two consecutive messages? :)
>
SPLORT
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:48:34 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: Flamewars IYTU
(Don't worry, this *is* Traveller related.)
The recent religion discussion here on the TML has reminded me of
something ...
In current American culture, if the media and this list are to be
believed, there are passionate differences of opinions in a
number of areas: "literal biblicalism", abortion, free trade, etc
in the US, animal rights issues, wealth, etc in the UK ... And
debate on these issues is not limited to rational discussion by
pundits and politicians, and in the bars and coffee houses of the
land ... but includes protest marches, riots, and targeted
harassment and even violence against those seen to be associated
with a controversial activity.
I was wondering what issues fired similar behaviour in the
citizens of the 3I. Now much of what affects the population
would depend on the local (planetary) issues, but are there any
common multi-world issues?
Recently Doug Berry wrote:
> What happens when a high-pop, TL12 world suddenly finds itself
> faced with a destabilizing social upheveal caused by serious
> rifts between the have minority and the have-nots who do all
> the work?
>
> What do you do if you're the Subsector Duke, and the bulk of
> your Army is from this world?
>
> What do you do if those shipyards are needed by the Navy?
>
> What do you do when rioting breaks out in an arcology?
>
> Think fast.
>
> Because Strouden is burning.
To which all the replies were variations on a theme: IIRC some
argued for fast decisive action, while others proposed surgical
strikes, but it all came down to the same thing: send in the
troops.
Yet one of the cornerstones (as I understand it) of the 3I is
that the 3I rules the space between the planets, the planets
themselves were largely self-governing. So while the Subsector
Duke orders in a Imp Marine force to secure the highly important
shipyards might not there be some protests on other planets
across the sector at this interventionist action?
Now I don't really want to get into a debate of a *specific*
issue like this, what I'm getting at is: if the troops are sent
in on Strouden might this mean that Imperial military personnel
and officials on far away volatile Efate are put on heightened
alert?
I'm thinking we could have a "Pocket Empires"-like system for
judging popular support on other worlds than the one focused on
in the scenario. After all, if the Subsector Duke concerned
realises there is going to be a significant public outcry in some
quarters to his action that makes his decision more complicated
(and realistic). He might find he *can't* send in the troops,
even if it is militarily feasible.
Thoughts?
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 15:37:40
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: GT Cargo question
Ok...my newbie "ness" will really show in this question...
I noticed that the GT Scout ship has 12 cargo spaces...From reading through
the books and GT:FT...this is about 12 tons of cargo space...but the CT
scout ship has 3 tons of space...Is the differnce because GT uses Liquid
Hydrogen as the measure? It appeared to me that the conversion wasnt a
direction conversion of the ship because the GT version of the Type S has 4x
the cargo space...
Putting on my flame protected suit now :-
Mike
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 07:48:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> >From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>
>
> You mnetioned your desire to emigrate soon. May I ask which countries
> are on your "short" list and why?
> Please believe me, this is not to set-up a personal attack on you.
> I've traveled extensively for work (the only continent I haven't stepped
> foot on is Antartica and I'm working on that) and am always fascinated by
> the various cultures and peoples I've met. I personally believe that
> Canada's overall "cultural mores" are more to my liking than that of the
> USA. Or more accurately, what the USA's has devolved into during my adult
> life.
>
I'm part Japanese, and I'm going to be one of those that makes what's
called "the Return" over there. =)
I don't LOOK terribly Japanese, nor was I raised by those relatives, but
when I went over there... I felt like I'd come home after being gone a
long, long time, and wouldn't have come back if there hadn't been some
legal matters I needed to tend to.
I've got a lot of Canadian friends though, and if I didn't have that
emotional draw, that is probably where I'd end up. I do think their
cultural mores are what the US probably should have been. They got a lot
of our best and most freedom-loving during the 60's, so I guess it's no
surprise.
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 07:49:11 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Government Code questions
on 2/8/01 2:02 AM, Rob at rhoughto@one.net.au wrote:
> ObTrav: How transportable are a planet's entertainment programs? Australia
> gets
> a lot of American T.V. shows...would a (sub)-sectors high pop/ high tech
> planets
> dominate the smaller planets entertainment? How many planets are showing
> re-runs
> of 'Regina Highport Dock Police' or such?
>
> Other Rob
>
>
It's "Major Case Squad", with Dirk Savage (of Dick Salamander fame) playing
the part of Inspector Globber.
If Current trends are any indication, we can expect the exported shows to be
action/sex (Baywatch and cop shows) or very broad slapstick--things that
will cross cultures. Subtle offworld Tri-Ds will be shown in art house
theaters, or maybe a clever drama from some smaller world will make it on
the public channel.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:56:07 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Hinterworlds
I need to speak/communicate ASAP to someone who owns a copy of the
Challenge with the Hinterworlds article (#39 -- I have 38 and 40, evidently
39 is still 1100 miles away).
Reply to both lkw@io.com and gdwgames@aol.com please.
Loren Wiseman
Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society http://jtas.sjgames.com/
SJ Games
lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
(512) 447-7866 VOX
(512) 447-1144 FAX
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:02:00 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: GT Cargo question
Michael McKeown wrote:
>
> Ok...my newbie "ness" will really show in this question...
>
> I noticed that the GT Scout ship has 12 cargo spaces...From reading through
> the books and GT:FT...this is about 12 tons of cargo space...but the CT
> scout ship has 3 tons of space...Is the differnce because GT uses Liquid
> Hydrogen as the measure? It appeared to me that the conversion wasnt a
> direction conversion of the ship because the GT version of the Type S has 4x
> the cargo space...
All versions of Traveller have used the dton as a measure of volume.
IIRC, MT used 13.5 m^3 as the definition of one dton, while T4 rounded
this to 14 m^3. (I don't know about TNE, and I don't recall CT
addressing the subject.)
Bear in mind that the Book 2 Type S required 20 dtons of power plant
fuel, while a similar ship designed under High Guard would require 2
dtons of power plant fuel. Apparently Book 2 power plants are far less
efficient than milspec HG power plants.
Similarly, the T4 version, needing only .7 dtons of power plant fuel,
has 12.9 dtons of cargo space.
Bottom line: Changes in the technical architecture between the various
Traveller rulesets have had a major impact on design parameters.
<<snip>>
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 15:58:12 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Flamewars IYTU/Rebellions - longish
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
snip...
"(Don't worry, this *is* Traveller related.)"
"Yet one of the cornerstones (as I understand it) of the 3I is
that the 3I rules the space between the planets, the planets
themselves were largely self-governing. So while the Subsector
Duke orders in a Imp Marine force to secure the highly important
shipyards might not there be some protests on other planets
across the sector at this interventionist action?"
"I'm thinking we could have a "Pocket Empires"-like system for
judging popular support on other worlds than the one focused on
in the scenario. After all, if the Subsector Duke concerned
realises there is going to be a significant public outcry in some
quarters to his action that makes his decision more complicated
(and realistic). He might find he *can't* send in the troops,
even if it is militarily feasible."
Now, this is more like it!
Wouldn't a high populaion world have more of the petty, and not so
petty, Imperial nobility in residence? While the subsector duke who resides
there might not have a finger to spare for planetary pulse taking, might
there not be a gaggle of barons, marquis, and counts(?) who's outlook is
decidedly local? They could act as an early warning system, giving alarm
when the "popular madnesses and delusions of the crowd" approach a danger
point.
I believe the oft quoted Imperial conceit about "not ruling worlds, but
the space between them" to be a polite fiction. It's a useful bit of
propaganda, but rarely survives any real scrutiny. It's rather like the
American conceit about equal justice. While a planet like Vanejen can
snooze on with little Imperial involvement, Mora will interest the Imperium
far more. There will a great deal of Imperial involvement in Mora's
"plantary" affairs, albeit behind the scenes involvement.
Let's face it, some worlds are just more important than others, or even
dozens of others. A strategic asset like Mora would be the site of a
never-ending, hearts-and-minds effort by the Imperium. The Imperium will
spend pork barrel credits there, ennoble locals of sufficient stature, run
deniable black propaganda, and all the other hallmarks of psychological
warfare. Machiavelli wrote all about this a very long time ago.
The fun starts when the Imperium trips up, the hidden hand is glimpsed
by the population too often or the local fail to gauge the sudden rise of a
cutural movement. Thanks to the law of large numbers, the Imperium is going
to trip up. But things will have to have gone extremely bad from an
Imperial viewpoint before the jackboot comes down. There are just too many
other tools to use first, especially if you identify a problem quickly
enough.
Obtrav - The PCs are tasked to work in a certain area after a natural
disaster. An imperial noble has decided to release certain of his
discretionary funds to assist in rebuilding. While they're not nearly as
much as the local money's and insurance settlements be disbursed n the
region, the noble hopes to assist some of the truly needy with the money and
score some pro-Imerial brownie points.
The PCs are given a sum of money and then must assist the noble in
determining how muchj and to whom it hould be given. The people in the
region here about the program and fixate on getting an imperial grant as the
solution to all their problems. The noble is continually mobbed.
Recipients of some grants feel they weren't given enough and get angry.
Others try to scare off potential recipients in order to better there own
chances.
The PCs are asked to invesitgate a sudden and wildly popular social
movement at a distant city. Several low caste residents have become
convinced that a rust stain along the side of one of the city's cooling
tower contains the portrait of Saint Stupnagel. Tens of thousands of
pilgrims of the same caste are now squatting in shanty towns at the site.
Several charismatic leaders have arose and some instances of mob violance
have occurred as each tries to control the "holy" site. Pilgrims are
donating their life savings to the movements.
The PCs must vidoetape a few of the leaders' sermons, without them
knowing it. They also must get a smaple of the rust stain for analysis so
that the Imperium's civil affairs agents can use it in their oen press
offensive. They might be tasked to determine just where all the money is
going and whether there is any off-world involvement. Is this just a
popular groundswell to loosen the cultural strictures of this world, or is
it a Zho plot?
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:07:29 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Flamewars IYTU
on 2/8/01 6:48 AM, Trevor, Peter at Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:
> I'm thinking we could have a "Pocket Empires"-like system for
> judging popular support on other worlds than the one focused on
> in the scenario. After all, if the Subsector Duke concerned
> realises there is going to be a significant public outcry in some
> quarters to his action that makes his decision more complicated
> (and realistic). He might find he *can't* send in the troops,
> even if it is militarily feasible.
>
> Thoughts?
>
Agreed. Since planet have a great deal of autonomy in the Imperium, we can
expect there to be an outcry when it is violated, particularly on nearby
worlds. In the US, we have have the "states right vs the federal
government" since the country's founding. At it's height, we had the US
civil war".
If Imperial troops are sent in to quell Strouden, the media will have to be
handled very carefully, otherwise if things get out of hand, nearby planets
will worry "will we be next?".
Anyone who spent time in the military will tell you that troops make poor
police. The whole mindset and training is to "kill people and break stuff".
Police typically have much more training in de-escalating a situation and
use of non-lethal force.
The local Imperial commander (unless he's a nut case) is going to be very
reluctant to commit troops to quelling a civil disturbance.
That is why I suggested blockading food supplies and a PsyOps campaign.
Troops would be used to secure essential facilities, but would be kept out
of contact with the locals as much as possible. No need for any atrocities.
An ugly situation no matter how you look at it.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3616
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Traveller-digest Thursday, February 8 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3617
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3610
Emigration (was Anti-RPG)
Marketing vs. Privacy in the Traveller Universe
[TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
RE: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
RE: GT Cargo question
Re: Boing
Re: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
RE: Boing
RE: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
Traveller, the True Calling
Religion
!!Request!!, and Current Flamewars of the Apocolypse (tm)
RE: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
Re: FAR TRADER (and FT Economics)
Re: GT Cargo question
Re: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
Re: Boing
RE: Boing
Re: Traveller, the True Calling
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:11:21 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3610
Dear Douglas et al:
There is a line between evangelizing, telling a person you think they are
blowing it and going over board. This group obviously went overboard bigtime
(even to the attempts by the leaders to prevent them from entereing) [the bible
does say alot about respecting and obeying your superiors]
There are lots of chistians in gaming and RPGing. Some of even play D&D and
still worship Jesus. Please do not judge all chrsitians by the acts of a few.
John W. Fox
Born Again Christian
Traveller player
D&D player and DM
>
> At 07:41 PM 2/7/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >I'll never forget a few years back, I attended a SF con that was in a hotel
> >across the street from a Promise Keepers meeting. It was truly amazing.....
> >It was the exact same thing, the exact types of people, just a different
> >interest.
>
> SiliCon '89 had the misfortune of having to share the hotel with a
> evangelical youth group. About 150 of them, as I recall.
>
> I have never dealt with a ruder, more destructive group in my 20+ years of
> con going. They rampaged across the hotel, going into convention spaces
> despite repeated, weak, warnings from their "leaders," hassled femfen,
> crashed our parties, and lectured incessantly.
>
> Ever been preached to by a drunken teenager? It is an experience. And
> when we started counter-attacking, pointing out Biblical inconsistencies
> and the like, they got violent.
>
> At about 0300, the hotel had enough. They threw out the youth group, and
> (I heard from the Chairman's wife later) apologized to the convention staff
> in front of the youth group's director.
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
>
> TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
> Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
> Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 16:23:52 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Emigration (was Anti-RPG)
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
>snip
>"I'm part Japanese, and I'm going to be one of those that makes what's
>called "the Return" over there. =)"
>
>"I don't LOOK terribly Japanese..."
Well, I applaud your brave decision to return to your roots. Now if we
could only convince so many others to do the same there would be far less
human fodder for "The Jerry Springer Show". 8^)
Seriously though, what your doing takes a great amount of courage and
you should be proud for doing it.
May I ask if you speak the lingo? Or can read any of the scripts your
future home uses? You mention you don't "look terribly Japanese", has that
been a problem during your visits?
I have visited Japan many times for both business and pleasure. Being
a typical American, I learn a few polite phrases to get along with but
promptly forget them when I board the flight home. The people there were
unfailing polite and helpfully to me thanks to my "western" visage, but I
was troubled by the reception some of my non-Japanese Asian co-workers had.
Please understand me, what happened to them was nothing like the race
hate that happens here in the US, where the wrong skin color in the wrong
neighborhood at the wrong time will get you beaten, if your lucky.
But there was a certain coolness, or haughtiness, displayed towards them at
times when it was percieved that I was not with them. It might just be nit
picking, but it saddened me to see it, especially when I was being treated
so well in such a beautiful country.
Also, have you rode the subways during any of your visits? Another
thing I noticed during all my visits there was a air of assumed sexism that,
while it does exist here, isn't displayed quite so openly. After seeing my
first "groping", I had to leave the car at the next stop to compose myself.
It was the gallant reflex I'm afraid. I wanted to thump the perpetrators so
badly that I had to remove myself from the situation. On the plus side,
they did stop once they saw me glowering at them. I suppose letting a
westerner witness it involved a loss of face.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:25:35 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Marketing vs. Privacy in the Traveller Universe
I was reading this morning of the current project of Sanford Wallace,
[aka Spamford, aka The Spam King] in foisting unwanted, unsolicited ads
on people:
http://news.cnet.com/news/0-1005-201-4687442-0.html
which prompted me to go back to the junkbusters site to see what might
be new in the world of anti-spam (http://www.junkbusters.com). They
have some thought-provoking pages there (well, they provoked *me* to
think at least) Some quotes:
"As a technologically advanced consumer you can look forward to High-
tech Junk Communications that give direct marketers unprecedented
speed, specificity, frequency and emotional impact. The messages will
be individually targeted to be most effective on you, chosen by teams
of psychologists and statisticians with ever greater accuracy thanks
to the greatly increasing amount of demographic, psychographic and
behavioral information collected about you and efficiently traded among
direct marketing organizations. Even the information you published
years ago on Usenet or the Web will be used to target and persuade
you."
"Then there are the new means of delivery: junk alphanumeric pages on
beepers, advertising displayed by Web browsers and software for reading
email, on Instant Messaging systems, on personal digital assistants,
through Internet broadcasting and micro-targeted interactive
television. These technological marvels promise to keep us busy well
into the next century. "
So, Ob Traveller[1]
What is the state of marketing vs. privary IYTU? Would the Imperium
regulate/prohibit the sale of citizen's personal information?
Information gathered and kept on one world, by local companies or
megacorp branches, would probably not get interfered with.
(Though imagine the adventurers return to a world and are beseiged on
the com units, restaurants, bedrooms, privies with targeted ads asking
how their trip to Regina went, and isn't time the replaced their old
size 8 shoes that only have a little tread left anyway? There's a sale
at Eneri's Mart on the corner for that wine you bought so much of last
time you were here. Oh, and if that rash hasn't cleared up yet, would
they like to try a new topical cream?)
But for citizens that travel, would getting peppered, tracked and
assaulted by marketers on every world they visited be enough to have
had regulations put in place (long ago perhaps)?
What might the 'standard imperial culture's' view of marketing be?
What about in the Confederation? or old Vilani views be?
Maybe I tone down the caffeine in the morning,
Rob
[1] I intended "ob" not "obiter", which I thought is what the Ob in
ObTrav stood for anyway, meaning "in regards to" or "concerning,
about"; but after looking up obiter ("by the way", "in passing") I
think that's a better source word when adding something about Traveller
to an OT post. Now for those posts (like this one I hope) that are
more about Traveller but inspired by OT news, I'm guessing ob would be
better - but I'm open to suggestions from those more knowledgable about
Latin than myself. :)
- --
Rob
'We have enough youth, how about a fountain of SMART?'
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:27:20 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
>Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 07:49:11 -0800
>From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: Re: Government Code questions
>
>If Current trends are any indication, we can expect the exported shows to be
>action/sex (Baywatch and cop shows)
Next on 'MoJ Blues'....
A Baywatch-type show might be exported, if the actors were recognizable
accross several worlds, but I can't see it becoming popular accross an
entire subsector. Then again, I can't see why Baywatch got popular in the
first place. :6
>or very broad slapstick--things that
>will cross cultures.
I just got the sudden image of "Hiver slapstick." Starring, M. Moe, M.
Larry, and M. Curley....
*waves fingers* Subtitle: "Oooh, a wise Vargr! Nyuk nyuk nyuk!"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:31:38 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
>>
>>If Current trends are any indication, we can expect the
>exported shows to be
>>action/sex (Baywatch and cop shows)
>
>Next on 'MoJ Blues'....
>
>A Baywatch-type show might be exported, if the actors were
>recognizable
>accross several worlds, but I can't see it becoming popular accross an
>entire subsector. Then again, I can't see why Baywatch got
>popular in the
>first place. :6
>
>>or very broad slapstick--things that
>>will cross cultures.
>
>I just got the sudden image of "Hiver slapstick." Starring,
>M. Moe, M.
>Larry, and M. Curley....
>
>*waves fingers* Subtitle: "Oooh, a wise Vargr! Nyuk nyuk nyuk!"
>
>
LOL Like it! Interesting that the Three Hivers are all manipulators...
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:35:36 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: GT Cargo question
John Groth wrote:
> All versions of Traveller have used the dton as a measure of
> volume. IIRC, MT used 13.5 m^3 as the definition of one dton,
> while T4 rounded this to 14 m^3. (I don't know about TNE, and
> I don't recall CT addressing the subject.)
CT also used 13.5 m^3 per ton by implication. It was mentioned
on making deckplans from ship designs to use 2 game squares per
dton. The squares in CT represented 1.5m x 1.5m and IIRC Traders
& Gunboats listed the distance from one deck floor to the next as
3m ... although usually decks were 0.5m thick (incl plumbing,
power, etc) so non-cargo areas actually have only 83% volume per
square as a cargo area. This can be excused by a plus/minus 10%
leeway factor given in CT. MT just formalised this.
IIRC TNE introduced the change to 14 m^3 per ton. TNE used a 2m
scale instead of CT/MT's 1.5m ... and so a correlation of dtons
to game squares could no longer be maintained, thus 13.5 was
rounded to 14.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:38:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Boing
Ya know, guys, I work for Boeing (I do computer support at their
Huntsville facility) and I have just one thing to say to you:
WE'LL OWN YOU ALL, SOMEDAY!
Muuwahahahaha!
Boeing will be the first Megacorp!
Our motto will be: "Boeing. Your only choice for all your defense,
aircraft and space system needs."
- --- Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:
> Jeff Rowse wrote:
> > It was intentional - like calling BAE Systems (this weeks' name*)
> "British
> > Waste-O'-Space" or "Messy Beast", and other similar nicknames for
> all the
> > 'great' aircraft manufacturers (except MiG - but I'm open to
> ideas:-).
>
> Mashed into Ground?
>
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> | jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
> | ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
> * http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" — Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1
**********************************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:55:38 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
> A Baywatch-type show might be exported, if the actors were recognizable
> accross several worlds, but I can't see it becoming popular accross an
> entire subsector. Then again, I can't see why Baywatch got popular in the
> first place. :6
>
I don't think it's popular because the actors are recognized. Think slow
motion shot of character running on beach.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:04:50 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Boing
I think you'll have to fight Cisco for it. You wouldn't be able to BUILD
anything post-70's without network infrastructure ;)
"We are Cisco of Borg. You will be assimilated. We will add your distinct
functionality to our own."
Scary thought: Cisco averaged something like 2 acquisitions per week last
year, IIRC from the last company-wide meeting.
Jesse DeGraff
Video Engineer
Engineering Education
Cisco Systems, Inc.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Gerry Harris
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 8:39 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Boing
>
>
> Ya know, guys, I work for Boeing (I do computer support at their
> Huntsville facility) and I have just one thing to say to you:
>
> WE'LL OWN YOU ALL, SOMEDAY!
>
> Muuwahahahaha!
>
> Boeing will be the first Megacorp!
>
> Our motto will be: "Boeing. Your only choice for all your defense,
> aircraft and space system needs."
>
>
> --- Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm <jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote:
> > Jeff Rowse wrote:
> > > It was intentional - like calling BAE Systems (this weeks' name*)
> > "British
> > > Waste-O'-Space" or "Messy Beast", and other similar nicknames for
> > all the
> > > 'great' aircraft manufacturers (except MiG - but I'm open to
> > ideas:-).
> >
> > Mashed into Ground?
> >
> > * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> > | jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
> > | ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
> > * http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
>
>
> =====
> Gerry Harris
> ******************************************************************
> ****************************
> Fther Traveller http://www.aethertraveller.com
> Soldier's Companion
> http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
> ******************************************************************
> ****************************
> "Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" Antony, "Julius
> Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1
> ******************************************************************
> ****************************
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
> a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:04:51 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
ROFLMAO!!!!!
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jonathan McDermott
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 8:27 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
>
>
>
> >Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 07:49:11 -0800
> >From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> >Subject: Re: Government Code questions
> >
> >If Current trends are any indication, we can expect the exported
> shows to be
> >action/sex (Baywatch and cop shows)
>
> Next on 'MoJ Blues'....
>
> A Baywatch-type show might be exported, if the actors were recognizable
> accross several worlds, but I can't see it becoming popular accross an
> entire subsector. Then again, I can't see why Baywatch got
> popular in the
> first place. :6
>
> >or very broad slapstick--things that
> >will cross cultures.
>
> I just got the sudden image of "Hiver slapstick." Starring, M. Moe, M.
> Larry, and M. Curley....
>
> *waves fingers* Subtitle: "Oooh, a wise Vargr! Nyuk nyuk nyuk!"
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 12:02:23 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Traveller, the True Calling
"Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com> types:
> >Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
> >>At 2:07 PM +1300 2/8/01, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> >> >Okay, how about we all sit on our hands for a few minutes
> >and think this
> >> >one through. This is not only *way* off topic, but potentially as
> >> explosive as
> >> >the dreaded "Gun Control". May I humbly suggest we drop this.
> >>I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew. I'm disgusted with the
> >>unbelievable lameness of you people. Why can't we go back to
> >>fighting over penis size? This is simply pathetic.
> >Length, width or simply volume?
> >Oh ya, just were *do* the Sayat fit into all of this?
>Remember this is Traveller, Mark. Penis size should be measured by tonnage
>of liquid hydrogen it displaces.
Opps...I stand (along with the other tripods) corrected.
I'm reminded of a SF "short" story I read years ago about a man who is
*seriously* injured.
One of the replacement parts he gets is a cyberpenis. The hospital staff
askes him to select a model that resembled his natural equipment.' Of
course he added a few inches when selecting the new model.
This option is covered in GURPS:Robots & GURPS:Biotech.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ - Opinions should be yours too!
Monday special, two valiums with a coffee chaser.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:07:45 -0600
From: "James Jensen" <cheeb0@hotmail.com>
Subject: Religion
I would like to suggest that religion be a "taboo" subject from now on. The
fact is that religion is THE MOST TOUCHY SUBJECT that there is. And, aside
from the ethics and morals of play (something best left to the individual
groups and gamers), it is irrelevant to Traveller.
In Traveller, evolution is fact. And, within this context, I can accept
that.
So, let's file this whole thing in with near-C rocks and that stuff.
- -J. Jensen
Administrator of the Milieu: 0 Aid Society
http://members.nbci.com/cheebzero/trav_index.htm
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:14:18 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: !!Request!!, and Current Flamewars of the Apocolypse (tm)
Wow, a couple FotA's (tm) going on and I didn't accidentally start either of
them! That's nearly a first :D
Anyway, last chance request. If anyone's seen or heard of EXTERNAL pictures
of the Corsair, please scan & send or let me know where ASAFP. I've got to
get this ship built, textured, & rendered for a cover by the 10th. Several
people have sent me that very nice .gif deckplan that looks like it was
extrapolated from Rob Caswell's (?) cool silhouette, but if there's any
other reference I'd sure like it before I go making s#!t up ;)
Best,
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Loren Wiseman
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 7:56 AM
> To: traveller@ient.com
> Subject: Hinterworlds
>
>
> I need to speak/communicate ASAP to someone who owns a copy of the
> Challenge with the Hinterworlds article (#39 -- I have 38 and 40,
> evidently
> 39 is still 1100 miles away).
>
> Reply to both lkw@io.com and gdwgames@aol.com please.
>
>
>
> Loren Wiseman
> Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
> Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society
> http://jtas.sjgames.com/
> SJ Games
> lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
> (512) 447-7866 VOX
> (512) 447-1144 FAX
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:13:14 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
Jonathan McDermott wrote:
> A Baywatch-type show might be exported, if the actors were
> recognizable accross several worlds, but I can't see it becoming
> popular accross an entire subsector. Then again, I can't see
> why Baywatch got popular in the first place. :6
There was an amusing scene near the beginning of the film Red
Corner: a business executive (Richard Gere) was in China to sell
a package of US TV shows. He expected to have trouble with a
Baywatch-type show offending their sensibilities but the Chinese
officials allowed it. However, they had serious problems with
"The Partridge Family"!!! Because it showed a family breaking
the one-child-per-family rule.
Okay, this was fictional and set on contemporary Earth, but I'm
sure you can see the ObTrav here in the multi-cultural 3I.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:17:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER (and FT Economics)
hal@buffnet.net writes:
> On the other hand, I suppose that one could take a J shaped path to reach a
> destination. It would be 6 parsecs by the map, yet 11 parsecs by the "J"
> journy. However, that raises a new issue. Suppose you have two stars on a
> spinward main. A portion of the Spinward Main makes a "C" shape. As it
> turns out however, a Jump 3 ship can make the transit in one jump. (Note:
> example taken from 1927 to 2125 on Spinward marches map) Is this a world
> that is considered to be 6 parsecs away (for jump 1 ships) or 3 parsecs
> away for jump 3 ships?
3 parsecs. What you should actually do is assume that trade vessels are either
J2 or J3, and figure that the distance is (# of legs) * (Jn), unless there's
a midpoint at which it is convenient to transfer cargo to a lower or higher
jump ship.
> Why is it that a Jump 1 transportation is more expensive than a Jump 2
> transportation cost? Let me put it this way...
Because a J1 ship costs roughly 70% as much as a J2 ship, and moves half as
fast. The net effect is that no-one ships anything by J1 ships unless the
distance is one parsec.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:19:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: GT Cargo question
Michael McKeown writes:
> Ok...my newbie "ness" will really show in this question...
>
> I noticed that the GT Scout ship has 12 cargo spaces...From reading through
> the books and GT:FT...this is about 12 tons of cargo space...but the CT
> scout ship has 3 tons of space...Is the differnce because GT uses Liquid
> Hydrogen as the measure? It appeared to me that the conversion wasnt a
> direction conversion of the ship because the GT version of the Type S has
> 4x the cargo space...
It's because the GT design system isn't exactly the same as the CT design
system.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 17:19:05 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
>From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
"or very broad slapstick--things that will cross cultures. I just got the
sudden image of "Hiver slapstick." Starring, M. Moe, M. Larry, and M.
Curley....
*waves fingers* Subtitle: "Oooh, a wise Vargr! Nyuk nyuk nyuk!"
Of course, with a bow to Hiver psychology, all pies would be thrown
from a great distance...
Larsen E. "Guards! Seize them!" Whipsnade
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:20:14
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Boing
At 08:38 AM 2/8/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>Ya know, guys, I work for Boeing (I do computer support at their
>Huntsville facility) and I have just one thing to say to you:
>
>WE'LL OWN YOU ALL, SOMEDAY!
>
>Muuwahahahaha!
>
>Boeing will be the first Megacorp!
*ahem* I invite you to look ionto the Twin Giants, PepsiCo and Coca-Cola.
I have considered an illuminati game where everything that has happened
since 1950 has been caused by these two rivals.
For ex: In the 1950s, Coke had almost complete domination of the Cuban
market (fact). So Pepsi arranges Castro's little movement. But Coke
counterstrikes by making sure that the American government isolates Cuba!
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:26:22 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Boing
>>Ya know, guys, I work for Boeing (I do computer support at their
>>Huntsville facility) and I have just one thing to say to you:
>>
>>WE'LL OWN YOU ALL, SOMEDAY!
>>
>>Muuwahahahaha!
>>
>>Boeing will be the first Megacorp!
>
>*ahem* I invite you to look ionto the Twin Giants, PepsiCo
>and Coca-Cola.
>I have considered an illuminati game where everything that has happened
>since 1950 has been caused by these two rivals.
>
>For ex: In the 1950s, Coke had almost complete domination of the Cuban
>market (fact). So Pepsi arranges Castro's little movement. But Coke
>counterstrikes by making sure that the American government
>isolates Cuba!
>--
>
Ewige Blumencraft! That's Brilliant! How about the Gulf War?
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 17:29:05 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller, the True Calling
>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
>I'm reminded of a SF "short" story I read years ago about a man who is
>*seriously* injured. One of the replacement parts he gets is a cyberpenis.
> The hospital staff askes him to select a model that resembled his natural
>equipment.' Of course he added a few inches when selecting the new model."
I think the author was Joe Haldeman, of "Forever War" fame, and the
story is "More than the sum of his parts". The recipient has a few other
items replaced, slowly becomes psychotic, and ends up gutting soome poor
woman like a trout. Yechhhh.
Now, there's an adventure seed for ya'!
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3617
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3618
Date: | 2/8/01 10:32:28 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Thursday, February 8 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3618
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
Re: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
Re: Emigration (was Anti-RPG)
RE: Boing
fire extinguisher
Re: Boing
Re: !!Request!!, and Current Flamewars of the Apocolypse (tm)
Re: [TML] Boing -- er, no, "Exported Video," sorry
Re: [TML] !!Request!!
re: Theory of Evolution
RE: !!Request!!, and Current Flamewars of the Apocolypse (tm)
RE: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Re: Boing
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Theory of Evolution
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: ***SNORE***
[none]
RE: [TML] Boing -- er, no, "Exported Video," sorry
Re: Emigration (was Anti-RPG)
System Writeup Outlines
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:32:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>Glenn Goffin wrote:
>> It's just an abbreviation for "obiter Traveller."
John Groth replied:
>From the Lewis & Short online Latin Dictionary:
>
>ob-iter, adv., on the way, in going or passing along
[deletion]
>Which is remarkably similar (in gist) to my definition of
>ObTrav.
>Having spent zero days of my life in formal Latin training,
>this surprises me greatly.
Well, as a native speaker of English, you can hardly avoid substantial
osmotic absorption of Latin. As the mummy said while acquiring English,
in that Anne Rice novel whose name escapes me, "Oh, hear the Latin in it!"
- --Glenn
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Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 17:33:57 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
"A Baywatch-type show might be exported, if the actors were
recognizable accross several worlds..."
Do you think the Zhodani hit "Law & Order: Tavrchedl' Unit" will do
well in the Imperial market? I'm trying to put together SuSAG's quarterly
media buys....
Larsen E. "Soon to be out of a job and running for his life" Whipsnade
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:37:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Emigration (was Anti-RPG)
On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> >From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
> >snip
> >"I'm part Japanese, and I'm going to be one of those that makes what's
> >called "the Return" over there. =)"
> >
> >"I don't LOOK terribly Japanese..."
>
>
> Well, I applaud your brave decision to return to your roots. Now if we
> could only convince so many others to do the same there would be far less
> human fodder for "The Jerry Springer Show". 8^)
> Seriously though, what your doing takes a great amount of courage and
> you should be proud for doing it.
> May I ask if you speak the lingo? Or can read any of the scripts your
> future home uses? You mention you don't "look terribly Japanese", has that
> been a problem during your visits?
I am currently majoring in Japanese. I can write and read hiragana,
katakana and about 300 kanji, I speak the language well enough to get
around and expect that this will improve over time. I've never had a
problem getting around Japan. The biggest problem I've had with regard to
my looks is the jawdrop factor when someone addresses me from behind
because I dropped something or my backpack unzipped itself and addresses
me in Japanese because they see long black straight hair. Then when I
turn around the jaw goes drop because the eyes are too round and the face
is too pale, and even though I answered in nihongo they try to remember
their high school English, usually unsuccessfully.
Once or twice I've had people give me crap for being hapa, but it's mild
compared to the racial crap we get here in the US.
> I have visited Japan many times for both business and pleasure. Being
> a typical American, I learn a few polite phrases to get along with but
> promptly forget them when I board the flight home. The people there were
> unfailing polite and helpfully to me thanks to my "western" visage, but I
> was troubled by the reception some of my non-Japanese Asian co-workers had.
Yes, they are much much more forgiving of obvious foreigners than not so
obvious ones.
> Please understand me, what happened to them was nothing like the race
> hate that happens here in the US, where the wrong skin color in the wrong
> neighborhood at the wrong time will get you beaten, if your lucky.
> But there was a certain coolness, or haughtiness, displayed towards them at
> times when it was percieved that I was not with them. It might just be nit
> picking, but it saddened me to see it, especially when I was being treated
> so well in such a beautiful country.
I get worse here from people who assume I'm Hispanic.
> Also, have you rode the subways during any of your visits? Another
> thing I noticed during all my visits there was a air of assumed sexism that,
> while it does exist here, isn't displayed quite so openly. After seeing my
> first "groping", I had to leave the car at the next stop to compose myself.
> It was the gallant reflex I'm afraid. I wanted to thump the perpetrators so
> badly that I had to remove myself from the situation. On the plus side,
> they did stop once they saw me glowering at them. I suppose letting a
> westerner witness it involved a loss of face.
If anyone sees that, it's a loss of face. Taking the offender's hand and
bending the fingers backward or asking politely "you seem to have lost
something, is this yours?" can be quite effective. Although the worst
groping I ever got was on BART between San Francisco and Oakland. I agree
that it's a problem, but I certainly don't think it's unique to Japan.
Kiri ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:36:09 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Boing
Jesse Degraff wrote:
> I think you'll have to fight Cisco for it. You wouldn't be able
> to BUILD anything post-70's without network infrastructure ;)
>
> "We are Cisco of Borg. You will be assimilated. We will add
> your distinct functionality to our own."
>
> Scary thought: Cisco averaged something like 2 acquisitions per
> week last year, IIRC from the last company-wide meeting.
I think EDS is another contender for that title. They may not
have as many "acquisitions" as Cisco but their modus operandi is
to assimilate the IT department of their clients. They start
with a standard facilities management deal and modify it so that
the client company's IT staff (including their IT director)
become EDS staff ... and then over a year are rotated out to
other projects (and replaced with EDS staff with no former ties
to the client). Now being in a *partnership* with the client
company they exercise input into the client company's IT plans
... and thus the client's long term general strategic goals.
Should a client wish to end their relationship they discover (too
late) that not only do they not have an IT department of their
own, but no one in the company knows how to set one up. So they
have little choice but to renew the contract indefinitely.
Note the last clause:
"We are EDS of Borg. You will be assimilated. We will add your
distinct functionality to our own. Your culture will adapt to
service us!"
ObTrav: ... er ... an example of how a predatory megacorp might
function.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:42:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: fire extinguisher
In an earlier post today I made a cmt which could be interpreted as my
saying that only the people who left the US during Vietnam were
freedom-loving, and that is NOT what I meant to say. This will teach me
not to post before coffee/tea/soda!
I apologize if anyone read that and felt insulted.
I have the utmost respect for those who fought and for those who left--
for those who acted with what they felt to be honor based on what they
believed was right.
It's the people who finagled and finessed their way around the issue while
claiming to have different sets of principles depending upon who they were
talking to that I haven't got much respect for.
There are a lot of people who were loud anti-war protesters and who
avoided the draft by all kinds of tricks and who then turned around to
become as conservative as they were once liberal the second they got money
and the danger of being sent to war disappeared, and they brought us the
greed and excess and nastiness of the 80's followed by the assaults on
personal privacy and freedom disguised as liberalism of the 90's. Those
are the people I haven't a whole lot of use for.
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 17:46:35
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Boing
Hi Gerry,
I'm with Boeing too, in Colorado Springs. I thought there might be some of
us on the list. There was an article recently (I think in Aviation Week)
predicting that in the not too distant future there will only be two or
three major aviation / aerospace defense contractors worldwide. "Boing"
intends to be one of them; I used to work for Rockwell. Maybe we should be
putting Boeing logos on Solomani ships.
John
>From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
>Ya know, guys, I work for Boeing (I do computer support at their
>Huntsville facility) and I have just one thing to say to you:
>
>WE'LL OWN YOU ALL, SOMEDAY!
>
>Muuwahahahaha!
>
>Boeing will be the first Megacorp!
>
>Our motto will be: "Boeing. Your only choice for all your defense,
>aircraft and space system needs."
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 17:48:31 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: !!Request!!, and Current Flamewars of the Apocolypse (tm)
>From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
>
"Anyway, last chance request. If anyone's seen or heard of EXTERNAL
pictures of the Corsair, please scan & send or let me know where ASAFP..."
SJG's Gurps:Traveller, pg 82, unless that's one of your's already?
Also G:AR1, pgs 81, 82, 91. The ones on 81 and 91 are kinda crude, and the
one on 82 looks to be a smaller duplicate of the G:T illo. All four show a
scythe-like vertical fin extending dorsally and ventrally from the ship's
nose. I've always like the retro 50's look of the Bow-wows' shipping!
I've got MT's Cogs n' Dogs around here somewhere. I'll try and dig it
out by evening EST and take a look.
By the way Mr. DeGraff, may I gush over the illos at your website?
You're the bom-biggity!
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 12:46:06 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Boing -- er, no, "Exported Video," sorry
>Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:55:38 -0800
>From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
>
> > A Baywatch-type show might be exported, if the actors were recognizable
> > accross several worlds, but I can't see it becoming popular accross an
> > entire subsector. Then again, I can't see why Baywatch got popular in the
> > first place. :6
> >
>
>I don't think it's popular because the actors are recognized. Think slow
>motion shot of character running on beach.
>
>Tod
>
>------------------------------
Oh, THAT. Yeesh, if I wanted that, I could just play DOA2 and set my age
to 'dirty old man.' =)
(Maybe THIS thread should be titled 'Boing' instead of the previous message?)
ObTrav: The RSB notes that Zhodani don't get all that excited about nekkid
folks (stinks to be them...) so it's probably safe to assume that other
cultures won't appreciate the... ahhhhhh, artistry, so to
speak. Certainly, Vargr would probably have at least slightly different
cultural mores than humans, so I don't think Baywatch will really appeal to
John-Doe-Vargr Gvurrzegh or your average Vegan. Unless someone got the
bright idea of doing a multi-species Baywatch. To which my mind replies:
"Oh, that is just plain WRONG!" for some reason. =)
Gosh, this is about as bad as I've ever been on the TML. Either Spring is
in the air, (it must have a strong stech if it's the middle of February) or
work is being really unfulfilling today.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 12:53:05 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] !!Request!!
>Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:14:18 -0800
>From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
>Subject: !!Request!!, and Current Flamewars of the Apocolypse (tm)
>Anyway, last chance request. If anyone's seen or heard of EXTERNAL pictures
>of the Corsair, please scan & send or let me know where ASAFP. I've got to
>get this ship built, textured, & rendered for a cover by the 10th. Several
>people have sent me that very nice .gif deckplan that looks like it was
>extrapolated from Rob Caswell's (?) cool silhouette, but if there's any
>other reference I'd sure like it before I go making s#!t up ;)
>
>Best,
>Jesse
Ahhh, the Corsair... Ergh, sorry for the delay in noting this, Jesse, but
the only EXTERNAL picture I know of is a Kieth-drawn stern-quarter view
image in Megatraveller. And my books are home right now. ISTR that the
deckplan and the shillouette follow it pretty closely, however.
I'll wait patiently until you're done before asking what book it is, if
it'll be about pirates and corsairs. =) Oh, don't forget the cable attach
points on the hull. Pirates need something to hook lines to, before they
start swinging accross th' void onto a fat merchant a-loaded wit' fine
plunder! Arrrrr....
Uhm... yes, there are pirates IMTU, why do you ask...?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:58:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Theory of Evolution
>From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
>ObTrav: Larry Niven wrote a story which (IMHO) supposes
>that intelligence was no longer a required or beneficial survival trait
>in humanity. So humans started regressing.
Intelligence and education may actually be negative survival traits. It
appears cross-culturally that whenever a community's level of education
increases, its birth rate drops. Or, as an ex-girlfriend once exclaimed,
"by not having children you're just helping the intelligentsia breed
itself out of existence!" (or words to that effect).
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:01:47 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: !!Request!!, and Current Flamewars of the Apocolypse (tm)
Ooops, sorry! Not the VARGR corsair, but the 440dt Nishemani Class corsair
that pira^h^h^h^h^ ethically challenged merchants are wont to use :)
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 9:49 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: !!Request!!, and Current Flamewars of the Apocolypse (tm)
>
>
> >From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
> >
> "Anyway, last chance request. If anyone's seen or heard of EXTERNAL
> pictures of the Corsair, please scan & send or let me know where ASAFP..."
>
> SJG's Gurps:Traveller, pg 82, unless that's one of your's already?
> Also G:AR1, pgs 81, 82, 91. The ones on 81 and 91 are kinda
> crude, and the
> one on 82 looks to be a smaller duplicate of the G:T illo. All
> four show a
> scythe-like vertical fin extending dorsally and ventrally from the ship's
> nose. I've always like the retro 50's look of the Bow-wows' shipping!
> I've got MT's Cogs n' Dogs around here somewhere. I'll try
> and dig it
> out by evening EST and take a look.
> By the way Mr. DeGraff, may I gush over the illos at your website?
> You're the bom-biggity!
>
>
> Larsen
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:01:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
>From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
>I'm game....... shall we talk about our RPG penises or our
>mundane penises?
You know, I once ran a rather enviably endowed pirate character named
Bates. He thought he was quite a good dancer, and once he tried to
fandango on skates. Unfortunately, he tripped on his cutlass, which
rendered him nutless, and practically useless on dates.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:10:45 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Boing
On Thursday, February 08, 2001 9:20 AM
Douglas E. Berry said,
> *ahem* I invite you to look ionto the Twin Giants, PepsiCo and Coca-Cola.
> I have considered an illuminati game where everything that has happened
> since 1950 has been caused by these two rivals.
That would work if Pepsi and Coke weren't already the same company. All of
this competition is just a sham to make you think you have a choice in what
you drink and make them appear to busy competing to go after there real
goals.
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
==============
"We all enter this world the same way: naked, screaming, and covered in
blood...But if you live your life right, that kind of thing doesn't have to
stop there." -Dana Gould
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:06:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Regina was settled by a group of utopians who wanted a world far, far
>away from the Imperium.
Hans, do you have a canonical source for that comment? My current
campaign starts on Regina, and I'd like to keep track of how far off-canon
my universe is. (My Regina sounds close to this concept, having been
settled initially by members of the New Catholic Church, which aligned
itself with Sylea and opposed the ancient church of Rome.)
- --Glenn
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:12:48 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Theory of Evolution
On Thursday, February 08, 2001 9:58 AM
Glenn Goffin said,
> Intelligence and education may actually be negative survival traits. It
> appears cross-culturally that whenever a community's level of education
> increases, its birth rate drops. Or, as an ex-girlfriend once exclaimed,
> "by not having children you're just helping the intelligentsia breed
> itself out of existence!" (or words to that effect).
"It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value." -Arthur
C. Clarke
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
==============
"Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American
people." -P.T. Barnum
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:08:55 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
healyzh@aracnet.com wrote:
> Last I checked I'm not trying to persecute anyone, and in fact am advocating
> tolerance. You on the other hand appear to be rediculing me for my faith,
> while denying your own. You're also showing the sort of religious
> intolerance I'm talking about. You're so sure that Evolution is true that
> you are unwilling to consider otherwise, and are willing to ridicule anyone
> that believes differently. Isn't that the sort of intolerance you're
> accusing Christians of?
I am not ridiculing you for your faith, you may practice it as you will,
but that still doesn't give you the right to teach it in schools,
masquerading as science.
You seem to be hung up regarding the meaning of 'belief', 'fact' and
'theory'. These are common english words describing different things in
the two contexts of religion and science.
That scientists call evolution a theory in no way indicates that it's
just some belief system. Belief in observable data, and models that fit
that data in no way correlates to belief as in religious belief.
I accept evolution not because I really, really believe it in my heart
of hearts as THE TRUTH, but because, it is a model that fits the
observed facts better than any other model so far put forth. It is a
model that changes over time, as we gain more knowledge of the past and
present physical world we live in.
Evolution doesn't require me to believe anything that a farmer breediong
for different traits has seen with his or her own eyes over and over again.
Creationsism requires me to believe thirteen impossible things befor
breakfast.
Man is a tool maker, it's how we got to the top of the evolutionary food
chain here on this planet. It's no surprise that we have invented a
toolmaker god to believe in.
Arguing science as belief and religion as belief is simply a matter of
the English language being inadequate to describe the difference.
Science requires you to believe things that you have witnessed in
person, measured and can reproduce or predict. There is no 'faith'
component.
Religious belief requires that faith be the basis of everything, that
what you observe be interpreted in light of that faith.
I beleive that evolution is a true description of reality.
I have seen the analysis of moths that adapted to the soot darkening the
oak trees in England, the succession of smaller iguanas over larger ones
in the Galapagos following la nina years (genetic evidence has shown
that these are indeed different populations, not merely smaller due to
environmental stress), and other evidence, objectively and reproducibly
measured.
I have a deeply held faith that "what goes 'round, comes 'round and
payback is a bitch." I know this is on faith, because I've witnessed
people do bad things to others and get away with it scot-free. Still, I
believe that, and conduct my life with that in mind.
As for persecution, when was the last time some athiest stood on a
corner, face contorted in rage, screaming at you 'You're NOT going to
HELL! THERE IS NO HELL!!!'?
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:02:57 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: ***SNORE***
Bill <beast@aracnet.com> writes:
> >Could someone please nudge me and wake me up when this whole religion
> >bucket of codswallop departs the list for more ethereal regions. I
> thought we
> >got together to talk about Traveller, fercryinoutloud! You know... Science
> >Fiction Adventure in the Far Future... that sort of thing.
> >
> >Sheesh!
> >
> > - Mark C.
>
>**Nudges Mark before it's over just to see the reaction**
SNURK! GRMPH.... oh, man. Bill, that's cruel! They're still at it and I
was having
this *wonderful* dream involving my favorite Vargr and a room full of
nekkid Antarian
slave girls!
Some people have *no* compassion. >^P
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:19:05 -0500 (EST)
From: rgd@ohio.voyager.net
Subject: [none]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:17:20 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Boing -- er, no, "Exported Video," sorry
Jonathan McDermott wrote:
> speak. Certainly, Vargr would probably have at least slightly
> different cultural mores than humans, so I don't think Baywatch
> will really appeal to John-Doe-Vargr Gvurrzegh or your average
> Vegan. Unless someone got the bright idea of doing a multi-
> species Baywatch. To which my mind replies: "Oh, that is just
> plain WRONG!" for some reason. =)
Thank you very much. I'm now stuck with an image in my head of a
female Vargr running along a beach in slow mo ... snout open,
tongue lolling from side to side with the paces, and ... how many
bikini tops?!?!?!?!
Meanwhile a Bwap playing in the sea nearby watches with eyes
wide. And a Hiver is starfished on the rocks.
Regards PLST
(Actually, I'm not sure about the Bwap with all that salt.)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 18:20:39 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Emigration (was Anti-RPG)
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
snip
"Although the worst groping I ever got was on BART between San
Francisco and Oakland. I agree that it's a problem, but I certainly don't
think it's unique to Japan."
Thank you for replying to all my silly questions and comments. It was
very kind of you.
With repsect to my comments about "groping", I don't think it's unique
to Japan either. Instead I was using it to illustrate the feeling I had
while visiting Japan, to whit: that overt sexist behavior isn't as frowned
upon as it is in the parts of the US where I live and work. Because this
country is segregated de facto rather than de jure, I can't speak for those
portions I don't move through.
Like many of the fat, dumb, and happy, I rarely ride public
transportation in the US but I was aware that "groping" occurred here also.
It was the blatentness of the several incidents I witnessed in Japan that
shocked me.
Each involved more than one man and would have continued, without
protest from the female victim, had not the perpetrators suddenly realized
that a gajin was present.
The worst incident I witnessed can serve to illustrate the rest. While
any unwanted touching is wrong, a pinch on the bottom or quick grab is
child's play when compared to treating a woman's breasts like a pair of
squeeze bulb horns over the space of many minutes and through a couple
stops. If one of the perps hadn't shifted his position during a stop for
better access to his victim, he wouldn't have seen me, been ashamed enough
to stop, and let the others know I was there.
The perps left at the next, not the poor woman. She remained
surprisingly passive during the entire incident. In fact, all the women I
saw never resisted. It was that fact that saddened me more than anything
else.
While this isn't pretty, it sure beats the hell out of school
shootings, crack babies, cannibalism, racial profiling, and all the other
cultural splendors of Earth's newest banana republic, the US of A.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:30:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Timothy Tow <t_pz_t@yahoo.com>
Subject: System Writeup Outlines
The US State Department has a similar write-up for
individual countries that could serve as a template
for world descriptions. It's not as graphically rich
as the CIA's world fact book site, but contains a
historical background section.
http://www.state.gov/www/background_notes/index.html
Tim
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3618
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3619
Date: | 2/8/01 12:11:28 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Thursday, February 8 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3619
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Islands - Bad example?
RE: Boing
Re: Boing
RE: Boing
Re: Islands - Bad example?
Re: ***SNORE***
Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
Re: Boing
Re: Boing
re: thoughts (RE: Rob Davenports 'Boring' thoughts (was Science Fiction))
Good Luck John
Re: Penis Size Wars
Re: Penis Size Wars
Re: Islands - Bad example?
Re: [Website Review] Traveller Core Route Maps
Re: Religion
Re: Islands - Bad example?
(Fwd) Re: Science fiction
Re: Religion
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 18:34:45 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Islands - Bad example?
I remember a Far Side-like one panel comic strip in which you see a
groups of mothers with children walking by and standing around a filthy
walled pit. Some of the mother's are holding their children aloft. The
kiddies all look frightened and interested. The pit bears a sign stating
"People Who Don't Brush Their Teeth".
Could that be why the Imperium never annexed or conquered the Islands?
Taking the fact that the Imperium didn't know the Islands were
inhabited, or didn't care that they were, prior to the Eldorado mis-jump
during the 4th Frontier War (something I personally don't believe) gives us
an interesting time frame.
The Solomani Rim War had only been over for 80 years or so and the
Imperium finds a cluster full of archaic Sollies smack dab between Ilelish
and the Trojan Reach. The lack of jump drive technology among those worlds
gives the Imperium a little time to plan, but they know that Serendip Belt
will eventually reverse engineer the drive they helped repair. So, how best
to use this situation for the Imperium's benefit?
A IISS mission is dispatched to survey the entire cluster secretly.
Once all the worlds whose industrial base can support jump drive, those
systems are contacted and jump drives distributed. A long term covert
mission is then put in place to continually keep the Island pot boiling.
The Imperium derives two considerable benefits from this policy.
First, a moderately powerful pocket empire full of archaic Sollies never
forms in the Rift. If that had occurred, additional military assets would
have had to been redeployed to Ilelish and the Trojan Reach from other hot
spots like the Marches or Rim. Something the Imperium would have wished to
avoid.
Second, the Islanders constant bickering and fighting gives the
Imperium a nice bit of propaganda to use along the Solomani Rim. They'd
make sure every single report coming out of the Islands would get a wide
distribution. It's likely that the Imperium would even fund news gathering
operations in the Islands to ensure enough of a "supply" of stories.
The Imperium gets both these benefits on the cheap, when compared to
the cost of conquest, occupation, and annexation. But would setting up the
Serendips (or another world) as an Imperial supported client state give the
3I benefits too? And without the rather cynical motivation the other plan
had? I guess it depends on how the IISS thought the Serendips would behave.
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 09:37:25
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Boing
At 09:04 AM 2/8/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>I think you'll have to fight Cisco for it. You wouldn't be able to BUILD
>anything post-70's without network infrastructure ;)
>
>"We are Cisco of Borg. You will be assimilated. We will add your distinct
>functionality to our own."
Hmmm.. that makes eight people I know who work at cisco, and you are the
only one who isn't named Dave. There are so many Dave's in local fandom
that they now great each other in this way:
"You are Dave."
"You are Dave."
"Together, we are.. DAVE."
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:40:30
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Boing
At 10:10 AM 2/8/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>On Thursday, February 08, 2001 9:20 AM
>Douglas E. Berry said,
>
>> *ahem* I invite you to look ionto the Twin Giants, PepsiCo and Coca-Cola.
>> I have considered an illuminati game where everything that has happened
>> since 1950 has been caused by these two rivals.
>
>That would work if Pepsi and Coke weren't already the same company. All of
>this competition is just a sham to make you think you have a choice in what
>you drink and make them appear to busy competing to go after there real
>goals.
Damnit! Now if you come to BayCon, we'll have to sacrifice to our dark,
carbonated gods!
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:42:52
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Boing
At 05:26 PM 2/8/2001 -0000, you wrote:
>Ewige Blumencraft! That's Brilliant! How about the Gulf War?
Do you have any *idea* how much money Coke made as the exclusive supplier
of 500,000 American soldiers? And what kind of market penertration they
got?
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:48:15 -0800
From: Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com>
Subject: Re: Islands - Bad example?
on 2/8/2001 10:34 AM, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> A long term covert
> mission is then put in place to continually keep the Island pot boiling.
> The Imperium derives two considerable benefits from this policy.
> First, a moderately powerful pocket empire full of archaic Sollies never
> forms in the Rift.
[snip]
> Second, the Islanders constant bickering and fighting gives the
> Imperium a nice bit of propaganda to use along the Solomani Rim.
I kind of like this theory--it makes sense given the history in TCS, and it
explains some otherwise really peculiar Imperial behavior.
Maybe I should send the history of the Islands from the TCS play-by-email
game I was in some years ago. It shows how that Imperial policy could
simultaneously be a complete success and a total disaster. :-)
- --
Ken Hagler
| ICQ#: 34591293 | For PGP key send mail with |
| http://www.orange-road.com/ | subject "Send PGP Key". |
| And tho' we are not now that strength which in old days |
| Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are --Tennyson |
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:51:50 -0800
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: ***SNORE***
>Bill <beast@aracnet.com> writes:
>
>> >Could someone please nudge me and wake me up when this whole religion
>>>bucket of codswallop departs the list for more ethereal regions.
>>>I thought we
>>>got together to talk about Traveller, fercryinoutloud! You know... Science
>>>Fiction Adventure in the Far Future... that sort of thing.
>>>
>>>Sheesh!
>>>
>>> - Mark C.
>>
>>**Nudges Mark before it's over just to see the reaction**
>
>SNURK! GRMPH.... oh, man. Bill, that's cruel! They're still at it
>and I was having
>this *wonderful* dream involving my favorite Vargr and a room full
>of nekkid Antarian
>slave girls!
>
>Some people have *no* compassion. >^P
>
> - Mark C.
>
> mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
> 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
> Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
What?... You think I was going to let you get away with enjoying
those slave girls by yourself, while I had to listen to all this?
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:53:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
>Hey, it is not the size, but skill. B-P
All the small guys say that. I'm a little worried about mine, however.
It's so big that when it fills with blood I get a little light-headed like
I might faint. I think I need to eat more.
That puts me in mind of an Ob Traveller story that my father, a merchant
sailor, once told me and some other guys after work. It seems that there
was a guy on his ship who was so well set up that when they were in port
... well, it's a family list, I'd better leave the rest to your overactive
imaginations. It is a problem that spacers can encounter while seeking
professional companionship dirtside.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:54:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Trav Webmaster <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
Quoting Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>:
> >From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>
> >Regina was settled by a group of utopians who wanted a world far, far
> >away from the Imperium.
>
> Hans, do you have a canonical source for that comment? My current
> campaign starts on Regina, and I'd like to keep track of how far
> off-canon
> my universe is. (My Regina sounds close to this concept, having been
> settled initially by members of the New Catholic Church, which aligned
> itself with Sylea and opposed the ancient church of Rome.)
>
> --Glenn
>
Material, Please.. Since I am the landgrabber of Regina/Regina, I'd love to get
this data. My own campaigns have all been centered on the Regina Upport,so
I've never dealt in any detail with the planet proper. Please check out
http://www.spinwardmarches.com for the data posted so far, or for additional
material, see http://www.travellercentral.com/regina/regina.html
You thoughts, ideas, and submissions are welcome, particularly historical
material. The only canon data I have indicates Regina was settled in the year
75.
Thanks, Tod
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:55:04 -0000
From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
Been following this thread with some interest, not my part of space or era
(I play TNE and haven't played CT for at least 15 yrs), but a question
suddenly occurred to me.
What is the first date for deep space refuelling after the Rule of Man and
Long Night. If there is no canonical data for deep space refuelling could
this then explain the failure of the 3rd Imperium to reach the Islands?
Another query on Deep space refuelling where (other than TNE) can I find
data (and rules) on this and deep space jumps. A website or rulebook
references would be sufficient. Thank you in advance.
Peter
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk (Trav & AD&D)
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
And life is harsh and rarely fair.
Never appeal to a man's 'better nature.' He may not have one.
Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love (By Robert.Heinlan)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:56:13 -0500
From: "Matthew P. Picio" <ace@acehunter.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
Very reminiscent of the Exordium series. The Kelly have ribbons instead of
fingers, but they always reminded be bit of Hivers for some strange reason.
Exordium's Panarchy also had a lot of intrigue among the Douloi which can
provide tons of ideas for a "noble" campaign.
- -Matt
ace@acehunter.com
http://www.acehunter.com
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jonathan McDermott" <caraig@mindspring.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 8:27 AM
Subject: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
>
> >Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 07:49:11 -0800
> >From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> >Subject: Re: Government Code questions
> >
> >If Current trends are any indication, we can expect the exported shows to
be
> >action/sex (Baywatch and cop shows)
>
> Next on 'MoJ Blues'....
>
> A Baywatch-type show might be exported, if the actors were recognizable
> accross several worlds, but I can't see it becoming popular accross an
> entire subsector. Then again, I can't see why Baywatch got popular in the
> first place. :6
>
> >or very broad slapstick--things that
> >will cross cultures.
>
> I just got the sudden image of "Hiver slapstick." Starring, M. Moe, M.
> Larry, and M. Curley....
>
> *waves fingers* Subtitle: "Oooh, a wise Vargr! Nyuk nyuk nyuk!"
>
>
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:14:57 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Boing
On Thursday, February 08, 2001 10:40 AM
Douglas E. Berry said,
> Damnit! Now if you come to BayCon, we'll have to sacrifice to our dark,
> carbonated gods!
Whoa UserFriendly Flashback!
Working on coming. Looks good if the work money on the offer I am expecting
is decent.
Have you ever tried brainwash?
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
==============
"When you have shot and killed a man, you have in some measure clarified
your attitude toward him. You have given a definite answer to a definite
problem. For better or for worse, you have acted decisively. In a way the
next move is up to him!" -Robert Heinlein
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:13:00 -0800
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Boing
> At 05:26 PM 2/8/2001 -0000, you wrote:
>
> >Ewige Blumencraft! That's Brilliant! How about the Gulf War?
>
> Do you have any *idea* how much money Coke made as the exclusive supplier
> of 500,000 American soldiers? And what kind of market penertration they
> got?
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
>
You mean to say:
War is good business, invest your children?
Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:15:30 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: re: thoughts (RE: Rob Davenports 'Boring' thoughts (was Science Fiction))
(At first I thought the subject had changed to my "boing" thoughts,
and I thought, gee, I didn't make any comments on the Boeing nickname
thread... :)
On 8 Feb 2001, at 14:29, Jones, Dean wrote:
> >[1] I won't go on about the use of cutlasses - but *I* like them,
> >especially as I read Patrick O'Brien's Aubrey/Maturin series, and the
> >Honor Harrington series.
>
> Me too. I've found the best way to encourage swordplay is to discourage
> gunplay...maybe by inserting engery deflection technology (nice idea, but
> not feasable in Traveller) or by increasing time between shots. If energy
> weapons need 60 seconds to recharge their batteries you've got yourself
> flintlock blasters!
Ah, good idea. I've been thinking along the lines of 'guns
sufficiently powerful to penetrate armor are dangerous to ship systems'
for onboard combat, or cutlasses are used once all the ammo/power is
gone. And more generally used than implied by the statement
(somewhere) that marines had cutlasses for show and historical reasons.
(For that matter, I'd like to see units with dress uniforms being kilts
and drum and bagpipe accompanying them, but that's just me. :)
Actually, in the O'Brien books I've been reading most recently, it
seems pikes are used just as much as swords/cutlasses; a tad big on
a starship I'd guess. (And then there's my interest in other martial
weapon techniques like Filipino escrima/kali and Chinese Tai Chi sword,
and non-weapon arts like jujitsu, etc. But there's already too much in
one post already... :)
> >[2] Some of the discussions of slugthrower in recent days (I'm
> >perpetually catching up on this list) have been enlightening and give
> >me new regard for the venerable slugthrower, which is great.
>
> If you use GURPS at all, check out UT2. Electrothermal slug throwers!
Hmm. I've got UT, but not UT2, I'll have to find it somewhere. (My FLGS
are fully warhammer-compliant it seems - most rpgs gone.)
> >[4] The article posited "growth quickening advances" around TL11 or 13
> >that reduced the time it took to regrow body parts. That'd be an
> >interesting discovery to think about what other implications it might
> >have. What age would be "old age" when you can get new organs in a few
> >weeks or months? 70? 90? To stick with the feel of the TU I'd think
> >you might say it's possible to get these organs and stay alive, but not
> >much longer and not without possible reductions in activity level,
> >something like that.
>
> Brain and neural tissue degeneration presents a limit to immortality through
> transplantation. Medico Rob could advise better on this than I.
I can definitely see the brain as the limit there. If you could
regenerate brain tissue, would you forget stuff?
1/2-:) as I'm a non-medico.
> >[5] I'm still pondering shields after my posting a few months ago;
> >not ST or SW type, but like above, something inbetween current and
> >Traveller TL15 - maybe just as shields to protect space travellers
> >from radiation or something. But I have not collected much data yet
> >to post. :}
>
> Perhaps some kind of deflector that would hold a bubble of atmosphere around
> the traveller in question. You could deflect away a great deal of the rads
> and trust the pitiful shreds of gas around you to soak up some more. Not a
> long term solution to leaving a ship due to explaosive decompression.
I was thinking more of starship size shields - and the physics behind
why shields would or would work certain ways as Mr.Erickson was kind
enough to point out. I haven't dug through the TML archives yet for
other tidbits to collect though.
(Though one thing I had been thinking of was - it was mentioned the
shields would be more of an area effect than a thin (but strong) screen
around the generator, but I wondered if you could get that effect by
having a second field created that cancelled the first for all but the
outmost layer of the sphere of effect. One may not want to be within
the sphere of two interacting fields, and have to hope they stayed
coordinated and didn't shrink into nothingness. But just some more odd
thoughts...)
Rob
- --
Rob
'Better to understand a little than to misunderstand a lot.'
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:23:11 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Good Luck John
John Groth wrote:
>
> In the next week or so, I will be mobilized to serve in the fifth year
> of the one-year peacekeeping mission in the Balkans.
>
Sorry I can't volunteer to track keyboard kills, John, but I did want to
wish you good luck while you're over there. Keep your head down and all
that.
- -Russell B
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 11:26:41 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: Penis Size Wars
Kiri wrote:
>
> From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
> >I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew. I'm disgusted with the
> >unbelievable lameness of you people. Why can't we go back to
> >fighting over penis size? This is simply pathetic.
> >
>
> Sure Kenji.
>
> You show me yours, and...
>
> hm, maybe that's why that flame war doesn't go very far, not everyone can
> participate equally.
Kiri, Kiri, Kiri...
We live in a wonderful age, where everyone really _can_ participate
equally. I know you live within walking distance of Good Vibrations.
I'm certain you could go and find yourself some equipment that would
put Kenji's to shame.
- -Russell B
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:51:49 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Penis Size Wars
On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
> Kiri wrote:
> >
> > From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
> > >I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew. I'm disgusted with the
> > >unbelievable lameness of you people. Why can't we go back to
> > >fighting over penis size? This is simply pathetic.
> > >
> >
> > Sure Kenji.
> >
> > You show me yours, and...
> >
> > hm, maybe that's why that flame war doesn't go very far, not everyone can
> > participate equally.
>
> Kiri, Kiri, Kiri...
>
> We live in a wonderful age, where everyone really _can_ participate
> equally. I know you live within walking distance of Good Vibrations.
> I'm certain you could go and find yourself some equipment that would
> put Kenji's to shame.
LOL! That is true. But then, it's not quite the same is it? I mean, we
could ALL go and buy the biggest model they have, and all that would prove
is that we can all afford it.
(IMNSHO, the biggest model they have is TOO big, on the "just where do you
think you're gonna put THAT?" scale.)
Then again, what I have got is equally interesting... more
interesting, in fact, to 90% of the guys and 10% of the women I
know... just in a different way.
back to TMI-land,
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 19:55:16 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands - Bad example?
From: Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com>
"I kind of like this theory--it makes sense given the history in TCS,
and it explains some otherwise really peculiar Imperial behavior.
Maybe I should send the history of the Islands from the TCS play-by-email
game I was in some years ago. It shows how that Imperial policy could
simultaneously be a complete success and a total disaster. :-)"
Please, please, please, please, please! I wanna read it!
Larsen (jumping up and down eagerly)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 20:00:21 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Website Review] Traveller Core Route Maps
on 6/2/01 2:00 pm, Michael Houghton at herveus@Radix.Net wrote:
> That is Perl/Tk software...you really need a *nix box to use that effectively
Yup, so I discovered. Which is okay on my Linux box - works well, thanks.
However, it's not so happy on MacOS X, because for some reason, I can't get
Perl/Tk working right. It will compile but won't work... due to some
mysterious "dyld: multiple definition" errors. Seems the MacOS X (Mach)
dynamic loader is somewhat peculiar. Free software sites across the 'Net are
awash with tales of woe from Darwin/OSX porters, but very short on
solutions. So being a lazy hacker, I'll give up at this point and wait until
somebody more talented posts an answer. :)
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:00:38 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Religion
"James Jensen" <cheeb0@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I would like to suggest that religion be a "taboo" subject from now
> on. The fact is that religion is THE MOST TOUCHY SUBJECT that there
> is. And, aside from the ethics and morals of play (something best left
> to the individual groups and gamers), it is irrelevant to Traveller.
Actually, all of the religion discussions I've been in have tended to
be considerably shorter and less flamish than the majority of
discussions about either gun control or libertarianism. I've no real
idea why, but feelings tend to be far more heated about those two
issues.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 20:03:07 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands - Bad example?
>From: Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com>
>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
"I kind of like this theory--it makes sense given the history in TCS, and it
explains some otherwise really peculiar Imperial behavior.
Maybe I should send the history of the Islands from the TCS play-by-email
game I was in some years ago. It shows how that Imperial policy could
simultaneously be a complete success and a total disaster. :-)"
Please, please, please, please, please! I wanna read it!
Larsen (jumping up and down)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:06:57 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Science fiction
Oops, apparently this didn't get sent out correctly the first time...
- ------- Forwarded message follows -------
From: Rob Davenport <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
To: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>,traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Science fiction
Send reply to: rgd@bigfoot.com
Date sent: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:19:49 -0500
On 8 Feb 2001, at 5:09, Hans Rancke-Madsen wrote:
> >Hmm. What might be some near-handwavium ways of improving heat
> >dissipation at higher tech levels?
>
> For starships a subspace heat sink will do wonders. Some device that allows heat
> to be leaked into another dimension but cannot be used close to a gravity well.
Interesting. Are there canon references to other dimensions being used?
(other than jump space, I suppose.)
Can an dimension-dump be used with say moderate efficiency or effect to
improve (or explain) existing TL12-15 starships?
If not, an dimensional heat sink sounds like a high TL item - 16+?
Finding an alien starship with no heat signature on sensors, but still
obviously using lots of power would intrigue PCs. could make for some
interesting performance characteristics in such an alien ship. (And
adventures in trying to find/get/keep/implement the technology.)
Rob
- ------- End of forwarded message -------
- --
Rob
'Basic research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing.'
- - Wehner Von Braun
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:09:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Religion
On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> "James Jensen" <cheeb0@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > I would like to suggest that religion be a "taboo" subject from now
> > on. The fact is that religion is THE MOST TOUCHY SUBJECT that there
> > is. And, aside from the ethics and morals of play (something best left
> > to the individual groups and gamers), it is irrelevant to Traveller.
>
> Actually, all of the religion discussions I've been in have tended to
> be considerably shorter and less flamish than the majority of
> discussions about either gun control or libertarianism. I've no real
> idea why, but feelings tend to be far more heated about those two
> issues.
Perhaps because people who are bright enough to get on the net realize
that they are unlikely to change anyone's opinion about matters of faith.
It's in Real Life that I always have trouble with religious flamage.
Kiri ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3619
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3620
Date: | 2/8/01 2:23:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Thursday, February 8 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3620
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: !!Request!!, and Current Flamewars of the Apocolypse (tm)
Penis wars
Re: (Fwd) Re: Science fiction
I know there older GOFs out there than me...
Re: Penis Size Wars
Re: Islands - Bad example?
Re: Boing
RE: Boing
Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
RE: [TML] Boing -- er, no, "Exported Video," sorry
Re: FAR TRADER (and FT Economics)
Re: FAR TRADER (and FT Economics)
RE: !!Request!!, and Current Flamewars of the Apocolypse (tm)
Re: Penis Size Wars
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:05:03 -0600
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com>
Subject: RE: !!Request!!, and Current Flamewars of the Apocolypse (tm)
Don't worry Jesse, we'll support you're your rendition of the Corsair. Until
we see it, of course: then we'll all tell you what you did wrong. :-P
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jesse Degraff
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 11:14 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: !!Request!!, and Current Flamewars of the Apocolypse (tm)
Importance: High
Wow, a couple FotA's (tm) going on and I didn't accidentally start either of
them! That's nearly a first :D
Anyway, last chance request. If anyone's seen or heard of EXTERNAL pictures
of the Corsair, please scan & send or let me know where ASAFP. I've got to
get this ship built, textured, & rendered for a cover by the 10th. Several
people have sent me that very nice .gif deckplan that looks like it was
extrapolated from Rob Caswell's (?) cool silhouette, but if there's any
other reference I'd sure like it before I go making s#!t up ;)
Best,
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Loren Wiseman
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 7:56 AM
> To: traveller@ient.com
> Subject: Hinterworlds
>
>
> I need to speak/communicate ASAP to someone who owns a copy of the
> Challenge with the Hinterworlds article (#39 -- I have 38 and 40,
> evidently
> 39 is still 1100 miles away).
>
> Reply to both lkw@io.com and gdwgames@aol.com please.
>
>
>
> Loren Wiseman
> Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
> Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society
> http://jtas.sjgames.com/
> SJ Games
> lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
> (512) 447-7866 VOX
> (512) 447-1144 FAX
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 20:20:19 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Penis wars
Ah, so good to see the list spending time an important topic for once.
I served with a follow who's "alter-ego", so to say, was so impressive
that the rest of the crew gave it a name; Nessie.
He was known as "Schwab" (don't ask) and was always referred to in the
plural, like - "Where are Nessie and Schwab?" or "Go get Nessie and Schwab".
He was even paged that way; "Nessie and Schwab, lay to EOS". Please note
that Nessie was always referred to first.
The strange twist to all this was that, although Schwab should have
been popular with the ladies, he wasn't thanks to several odious personal
habits, such as an aversion to soap and water.
The waste of such potential was often commented on among us. One
fellow referred to it being like "a chimp with a cello". The universe can
be a very cruel place.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:30:23 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: (Fwd) Re: Science fiction
On Thursday, February 08, 2001 12:06 PM
Rob Davenport said,
> Interesting. Are there canon references to other dimensions being used?
> (other than jump space, I suppose.)
The teleportation portals created by Grandfather and described in Secrets of
the Ancients use a large body, usually a planet in a pocket dimension as a
sink to dump the differences in potential energy into. Of course these are
extremely high tech devices, (well) beyond the Imperial norm in any of the
OTU Milieu's.
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
==============
"A jury consists of twelve persons chosen to decide who has the better
lawyer."- Robert Frost
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 15:28:34 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: I know there older GOFs out there than me...
but...
>Perhaps because people who are bright enough to get on the net realize
>that they are unlikely to change anyone's opinion about matters of faith.
I still have to question this statement.
I would have agreed prior the endless September started in large part by AOL.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions should be yours too! - http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"What's a FAQ? Boy, I wish someone would put a list of answers
for common questions such as this..."
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 12:32:20 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
Subject: Re: Penis Size Wars
OK EVERYONE:
TAKE THREE STEPS BACK, PUT THE FIREARMS DOWN AND LETS TALK!!!
Average size (as documented in several studies)
Length 6 inches
Diameter 2 inches (We will be generous here)
Total volume = L X pi X r^2
6" X pi X 1"^2
6" X pi X 1""
6in^3 X pi
18.85 in^3
Density of Liquid H2 is 1 ton equals 13.5 M^3 (as given in traveller book)
1 in = 2.54 cm
1 M = 100 cm.
1 M = 39.37 in
1M^3 = 39.37 ^3 = 61.02 X 10^3 in^3
Thus
Average volume of said object diveded by volume of ton gives percentage of ton
18.85 / 61.02 X 10^3 = 308.9 X 10^-6
Average weight
Total weight = 308.9 X 10^-6 X 2000 Lbs
617.8 X 10^-3
0.62 lbs
If Metric Ton 308.9 X 10^-6 X 2200 lbs
678.6 X 10^-3
0.68 lbs
And we are being generous here!
ARGUMENT SETTLED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
John W. Fox
> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:51:49 -0800 (PST)
> From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Penis Size Wars
> MIME-Version: 1.0
>
> On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Russell Bornschlegel wrote:
>
> > Kiri wrote:
> > >
> > > From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
> > > >I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew. I'm disgusted with the
> > > >unbelievable lameness of you people. Why can't we go back to
> > > >fighting over penis size? This is simply pathetic.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Sure Kenji.
> > >
> > > You show me yours, and...
> > >
> > > hm, maybe that's why that flame war doesn't go very far, not everyone can
> > > participate equally.
> >
> > Kiri, Kiri, Kiri...
> >
> > We live in a wonderful age, where everyone really _can_ participate
> > equally. I know you live within walking distance of Good Vibrations.
> > I'm certain you could go and find yourself some equipment that would
> > put Kenji's to shame.
>
> LOL! That is true. But then, it's not quite the same is it? I mean, we
> could ALL go and buy the biggest model they have, and all that would prove
> is that we can all afford it.
>
> (IMNSHO, the biggest model they have is TOO big, on the "just where do you
> think you're gonna put THAT?" scale.)
>
> Then again, what I have got is equally interesting... more
> interesting, in fact, to 90% of the guys and 10% of the women I
> know... just in a different way.
>
> back to TMI-land,
> Kiri
> ******************************************************************************
> Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
> tiamat@tsoft.com
>
> "If time passes, everything turns into beauty
> If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
> Everything starts wearing fresh colors
> Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
> Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
> Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 12:34:49 -0800
From: Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com>
Subject: Re: Islands - Bad example?
on 2/8/2001 11:55 AM, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Please, please, please, please, please! I wanna read it!
Okay. :-)
Here's a summary. I was the Neubayern player in that game. I know some of
the other people from the game are on the list, so they can correct me if
there's too much of a pro-Neubayern bias.
This is part of a larger document that extended the "history" up to 5650 AD.
History
Colonization
The Island Cluster was colonized by three sublight generation ships
launched by the European Space Agency in the mid-21st century. These ships
each settled a different world in the Cluster, and from there other colonies
were established.
First Contact
During the Fourth Frontier War of the fifty-sixth century, an Imperial
cruiser misjumped into the Island Cluster, ending up at the Serendip Belt.
The cruiser was able to repair its jump drive with the aid of the
inhabitants, and went on its way.
The people of the Serendip Belt had figured out how to reproduce the
jump drive, and began a campaign to conquer the entire Cluster. They
initially did pretty well, conquering the nearby small colonies outright and
constantly attacking the heavily populated worlds of New Colchis and
Neubayern.
A few years passed, and an Imperial Scout fleet arrived in the Cluster
to make contact with the inhabitants whose existance had been reported by
the cruiser. Seeing the situation, the Scout commander took the unusual
step of distributing jump technology to all the worlds of the Cluster.
³Warring Provinces² Era
For the next century, the major worlds of the Island Cluster fought a
series of small wars over territory, as each tried to secure its position
and conquer its neighbors. Alliances were formed and broken with great
regularity. Just when it looked like this might continue indefinitely, the
status quo was broken.
The Old Islands War‹Birth of the Alliance
In 5627, Neubayern and New Home formed a defensive alliance. Almost
immediately thereafter, a war broke out over control of the St. Genevieve
system with the Neubayern/New Home alliance on one side, and the
Sansterre/Amondiage Codominion on the other.
This war lasted only a few weeks, but resulted in a death toll in the
billions as civilian targets were attacked from space. However, the two
sides were able to put aside their differences in the peace talks that
followed.
From these peace talks the idea of the Old Islands Alliance, a loose
confederation of major powers, was born. The Old Islands Alliance initially
was made up of all the major Old Islands countries except Amondiage, which
was in turn allied with the Alliance. St. Hilaire of the New Islands also
joined.
The new Alliance almost immediately found itself at war with the
Serendip Belt/New Colchis Concord over a territorial dispute, but the
Alliance achieved an overwhelming victory thanks to Fleet Admiral Sir Isaac
Connor of New Home.
Cold War
For the next four years, the Old Islands Alliance and the Concord were
locked in a Cold War. Alliance technology began making great strides during
this period, to the dismay of the Concord.
Towards the end of this period, in 5630, an Imperial military
expedition arrived in the Cluster for a bit of ³gunboat diplomacy,²
expecting to bully a small group of ³primitives.² The entire fleet arrived
at Amondiage and was promptly captured intact by the local navy. Thus began
the Amondiage-Imperium War.
Blow-up
5631 started with a bang‹the Serendip Belt made a genocidal attack
against the Orpheides, a stone-age species native to the planet Orphee. Amid
cries of outrage, all the other nations of the Cluster dispatched relief
expeditions to save the Orpheides from extinction.
The relief expeditions had only just arrived when a second Serendip Belt
attack killed most of the surviving Orpheides, along with several of the
relief ships‹including ships from their ally, New Colchis.
After this, all the remaining great powers of the Cluster joined the
Alliance and declared war on the Serendip Belt. The Belters responded by
launching genocidal attacks at Neubayern and New Colchis that killed ten
billion civilians, but cost the Serendip Belt their fleet. The annihilation
of the Serendip Belt followed soon after.
At the same time, Amondiage had launched a devastating attack on the
Imperium, destroying the Imperial sector capital at Cyril with an antimatter
³planetbuster² bomb.
So, the upshot was that the Imperium got its anti-Solomani propoganda with
the billions of casualties, but they also got a unified (and potentially
very dangerous) Cluster anyway...
- --
Ken Hagler
| ICQ#: 34591293 | For PGP key send mail with |
| http://www.orange-road.com/ | subject "Send PGP Key". |
| And tho' we are not now that strength which in old days |
| Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are --Tennyson |
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:12:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Boing
I started working at the Rockwell plant in Duluth, GA. We were bought
out by Boeing, which closed that plant and moved me here to Huntsville.
Small world.
The Solomani Sphere is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Boeing, so yes
Solomani ships should sport the globe-swish (or rocket, globe, tail --
depends on what you're looking at).
- --- John Lambert <hovtej@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Gerry,
>
> I'm with Boeing too, in Colorado Springs. I thought there might be
> some of
> us on the list. There was an article recently (I think in Aviation
> Week)
> predicting that in the not too distant future there will only be two
> or
> three major aviation / aerospace defense contractors worldwide.
> "Boing"
> intends to be one of them; I used to work for Rockwell. Maybe we
> should be
> putting Boeing logos on Solomani ships.
>
> John
>
> >From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
> >Ya know, guys, I work for Boeing (I do computer support at their
> >Huntsville facility) and I have just one thing to say to you:
> >
> >WE'LL OWN YOU ALL, SOMEDAY!
> >
> >Muuwahahahaha!
> >
> >Boeing will be the first Megacorp!
> >
> >Our motto will be: "Boeing. Your only choice for all your defense,
> >aircraft and space system needs."
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" — Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 13:13:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Boing
Sounds a bit parasitic...
- --- "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com> wrote:
> Jesse Degraff wrote:
> > I think you'll have to fight Cisco for it. You wouldn't be able
> > to BUILD anything post-70's without network infrastructure ;)
> >
> > "We are Cisco of Borg. You will be assimilated. We will add
> > your distinct functionality to our own."
> >
> > Scary thought: Cisco averaged something like 2 acquisitions per
> > week last year, IIRC from the last company-wide meeting.
>
> I think EDS is another contender for that title. They may not
> have as many "acquisitions" as Cisco but their modus operandi is
> to assimilate the IT department of their clients. They start
> with a standard facilities management deal and modify it so that
> the client company's IT staff (including their IT director)
> become EDS staff ... and then over a year are rotated out to
> other projects (and replaced with EDS staff with no former ties
> to the client). Now being in a *partnership* with the client
> company they exercise input into the client company's IT plans
> ... and thus the client's long term general strategic goals.
> Should a client wish to end their relationship they discover (too
> late) that not only do they not have an IT department of their
> own, but no one in the company knows how to set one up. So they
> have little choice but to renew the contract indefinitely.
>
> Note the last clause:
> "We are EDS of Borg. You will be assimilated. We will add your
> distinct functionality to our own. Your culture will adapt to
> service us!"
>
> ObTrav: ... er ... an example of how a predatory megacorp might
> function.
>
> Regards PLST
>
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" — Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1
**********************************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 14:17:01 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
John Groth wrote:
> In the next week or so, I will be mobilized to serve in the fifth year
> of the one-year peacekeeping mission in the Balkans.
Hey John, good luck.
Something I've not heard said a lot, but you folks _are_ doing good over
there.
Yes it's been a five year long 'one-year mission' but they _haven't_
been running each other into mass graves again, either.
Keeping peace is a very important mission, and you all deserve great
recognition for a difficult task.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:20 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
In-Reply-To: <NDBBIJCCGLPKIPPMAFKAIEHLFLAA.frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Greetings dear hearts, especially Frankie.
The Vicar of Dibbley? She's better looking than me, far funnier, but I
have longer hair :-)
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:20 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.4.10.10102081108120.10629-100000@chico.hut.fi>
Greetings dear hearts.
Guess I'd better get my, erm, vacc suit...
Don't have a 'schlong' to compare with you lot's endowment :-)
Oh, you did say RPG ones were acceptable, I do play male characters
sometimes. Not that I've really thought about that item of their
equipment!
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:56:30 -0600
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Boing -- er, no, "Exported Video," sorry
Ah, but you forgot the Ever-Artistic Aslan with their monogrammed Thongs and
Speedos...
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 17:07:49 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER (and FT Economics)
Hello Folks,
I guess rather than put things in Traveller terms <grin>, I should be
flat out saying what I mean.
Specifically:
IF (and I do mean if) it takes X dollars for the general run of the mill
business to run at a bare minimal profit margin, and said unit is the
slowest unit in the delivery business - the price the slowest unit charges
to survive will be the baseline for which the rest of the industry charges
its fees. If the faster units can compete more effectively than the slower
units such that they drive slower units into bankruptcy - then the slower
units should not even exist!
The alternative to this would mean then, that if the slower units exist,
the faster units are not competing, but in fact, are actually profiting
from the difference in operations cost.
Put another way:
Jump 1 ships should be the baseline cost.
Jump 2 ships should charge a set percentage more than the Jump 1 ships, or
they should charge the same amount, but get more of the Jump 1's business.
This means that where the jump 2 ship might have 90% of its cargo hold
full, the Jump 1 ship may have only 50% of its cargo hold full.
Lets examine this aspect from a different perspective, that of the
shipper. If I hire the services of a Jump 1 ship to transship my cargo
say, 4 parsecs - I wind up paying (based on $700 per parsec cost) $2,800.
The Jump 2 shipping agency will only charge me $2,600 (assuming a base cost
of say, $650 per parsec). Not only that, but they get the shipment there
some two jumps sooner. I could *wait* two weeks and still pay less, and
still have my cargo arrive at the same time as a more costly operative!
This goes contrary to what a capitalism driven economy will tolerate (at
least in my limited experience!).
I think the best way overall, to fix the Traveller problems with pricing
and economics is to do the following:
Treat Jump capabilities as being TL aspects (much like they were in CT).
Any Jump drive that is in operation for more than 2 TL's past its
introduction are treated as being 2 TL's.
Since I don't have all my traveller reference books available, this is not
going to be accurate, but perhaps it will give the gist of what I am trying
to say:
Early TL 9 Jump 1
Late TL 9 Jump 2
Early TL 10 Jump 3
Late TL 10 Jump 4
TL 11 Jump 5
TL 12 Jump 6
At 1 tech level after introduction, the cost of the drives are halved. At
2 tech levels after introduction, the jump drives are 1/4 price. Since
GURPS TRAVELLER assumes a Mature TL10 Interstellar community, I would
suspect that Jump 3 and Jump 4 drives are to be considered as being normal
priced drives, while Jump 1 and 2 drives are considered to be 1/2 priced.
Perhaps Jumps 5 and 6 drives should either be 10x price or 2x price as
rated against the TL10 society?
All in all, I am willing to use the TRAVELLER economy rules relatively
untouched, but in my heart, I know that the pricing structure for ship's
incomes is not realitic when compared with how our capitalistic society of
today.
For those of you who think "what an anal retentive guy" <wink>...
All of my interest in examining *any* role playing system's economics is
based on the simple premise "If it works for the common working man, then
it will work for the upper echelons of society". In other words, if the
rules for incomes on farmers at a serf level work, they will work for the
Knight or Barons of the land. Same thing is true for the Shippers of
cargo. If the economics rules work for them, then it will work for the
ship captains. If the economic rules for the shippers are broken, then the
entire system needs to be re-evaluated and made to work, or deliberately
handwaved into "Oh, there are mysterious forces that make this so. Magic
works because. Traveller Economics work because. (no flames intended
here, but a statement of facts).
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:11:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER (and FT Economics)
hal@buffnet.net writes:
> its fees. If the faster units can compete more effectively than the slower
> units such that they drive slower units into bankruptcy - then the slower
> units should not even exist!
Other than for J1 links, the slower units don't exist. For a J1 link, the
slower unit is more efficient.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:17:49 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: !!Request!!, and Current Flamewars of the Apocolypse (tm)
LOL!!! That's what I was afraid of ;)
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Matthew W. Helton
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 12:05 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: RE: !!Request!!, and Current Flamewars of the Apocolypse (tm)
>
>
> Don't worry Jesse, we'll support you're your rendition of the
> Corsair. Until
> we see it, of course: then we'll all tell you what you did wrong. :-P
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jesse Degraff
> Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 11:14 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: !!Request!!, and Current Flamewars of the Apocolypse (tm)
> Importance: High
>
> Wow, a couple FotA's (tm) going on and I didn't accidentally
> start either of
> them! That's nearly a first :D
>
> Anyway, last chance request. If anyone's seen or heard of
> EXTERNAL pictures
> of the Corsair, please scan & send or let me know where ASAFP.
> I've got to
> get this ship built, textured, & rendered for a cover by the
> 10th. Several
> people have sent me that very nice .gif deckplan that looks like it was
> extrapolated from Rob Caswell's (?) cool silhouette, but if there's any
> other reference I'd sure like it before I go making s#!t up ;)
>
> Best,
> Jesse
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Loren Wiseman
> > Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 7:56 AM
> > To: traveller@ient.com
> > Subject: Hinterworlds
> >
> >
> > I need to speak/communicate ASAP to someone who owns a copy of the
> > Challenge with the Hinterworlds article (#39 -- I have 38 and 40,
> > evidently
> > 39 is still 1100 miles away).
> >
> > Reply to both lkw@io.com and gdwgames@aol.com please.
> >
> >
> >
> > Loren Wiseman
> > Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
> > Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society
> > http://jtas.sjgames.com/
> > SJ Games
> > lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
> > (512) 447-7866 VOX
> > (512) 447-1144 FAX
> >
> >
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:20:01 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Penis Size Wars
>From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
> Total weight = 308.9 X 10^-6 X 2000 Lbs
> 617.8 X 10^-3
> 0.62 lbs
> If Metric Ton 308.9 X 10^-6 X 2200 lbs
> 678.6 X 10^-3
> 0.68 lbs
> And we are being generous here!
>
> ARGUMENT SETTLED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
>
> John W. Fox
Thank you sir. I am now converting all my High Guard ship volumes into
ISPV units; Imperial Standard Penis Volumes. Navy command feels that the
resulting inflation (ahem) of Imperial ship sizes will ahve a salutory
effect on the Zhodani.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3620
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From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)
To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3620
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3621
Date: | 2/8/01 3:51:59 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Thursday, February 8 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3621
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
re: Religion
Re: Boing
Re: Traveller, the True Calling
Re: [TML] Anti-RPG
Re: Government Code questions
Re: Penis Size Wars
Re: Anti-RPG (religion and Evolution)
Re: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
Re: Traveller, the True Calling
Re: Religion
Re: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
Re: Government Code questions
Re: [TML] Boing -- er, no, "Exported Video," sorry
RE: [TML] Boing -- er, no, "Exported Video," sorry
Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions)
Re: Science Fiction
Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Re: [TML] Boing -- er, no, "Exported Video," sorry
Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
Re: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions)
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: [OT] Big Bang
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:23:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Religion
>From: "James Jensen" <cheeb0@hotmail.com>
>I would like to suggest that religion be a "taboo" subject
>from now on.
I'm not in favor that approach. Although much of the recent discussion
has been off-topic, religion is still an important part of culture, and
culture is properly part of our concern as Traveller players and referees.
I would be in favor of deeming repeated posts of off-topic or way off
topic material taboo. Of course, taboo in traditional culture may mean
that it is a subject that is ignored and that people pretend does not
exist. That's what I do with most noise on the TML -- I ignore it.
Also, while we're on that subject, remember that one sophont's noise is
another's signal.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:26:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Boing
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
>*ahem* I invite you to look ionto the Twin Giants, PepsiCo
>and Coca-Cola. I have considered an illuminati game where everything that
>has happened since 1950 has been caused by these two rivals.
>
>For ex: In the 1950s, Coke had almost complete domination of the Cuban
>market (fact). So Pepsi arranges Castro's little movement.
>But Coke counterstrikes by making sure that the American government
>isolates Cuba!
That would explain why, when I was in the Soviet Union many years ago,
Pepsi was readily available (with the name written in Cyrillic
characters), but not Coke.
- --Glenn
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:28:39 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller, the True Calling
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> I think the author was Joe Haldeman, of "Forever War"
>fame, and the story is "More than the sum of his parts". The recipient
>has a few other items replaced, slowly becomes psychotic, and ends up
>gutting soome poor woman like a trout. Yechhhh.
> Now, there's an adventure seed for ya'!
D'oh! Now I can't run my planned second adventure for the Regina
Subsector Secret Police!
- --Glenn
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:31:30 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: [TML] Anti-RPG
On 8 Feb 2001, at 23:48, Timothy Little wrote:
> >That what religion is all about. It is a belief system about
> [...]
>
> Thank you all. You have induced me to do something I've been meaning
> to do for ages -- learn how to implement a 'procmail' filter to get
> rid of rubbish. 600 items of spam over the last few months weren't
> inducement enough, but 90 religion posts in 10 hours were.
>
> Just thought the participants on all sides would be pleased to know
> that I consider their contributions to the thread to be more
> irritating than "MAKE $$$4$ FaST!!1!".
Repeat after me "On the TML there is no such thing as an off-topic post." :)
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 09:44:04 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: Government Code questions
Tod Glenn wrote:
> on 2/8/01 2:02 AM, Rob at rhoughto@one.net.au wrote:
> > ObTrav: How transportable are a planet's entertainment programs? Australia
> > gets
> > a lot of American T.V. shows...would a (sub)-sectors high pop/ high tech
> > planets
> > dominate the smaller planets entertainment? How many planets are showing
> > re-runs
> > of 'Regina Highport Dock Police' or such?
> >
> > Other Rob
> >
> >
>
> It's "Major Case Squad", with Dirk Savage (of Dick Salamander fame) playing
> the part of Inspector Globber.
>
I was trying to find an equivilent for "Water Rats", an Australian police drama
based on the Sydney Harbour Water Police...different department with the
possibility of crossovers and cameos...
>
> If Current trends are any indication, we can expect the exported shows to be
> action/sex (Baywatch and cop shows) or very broad slapstick--things that
> will cross cultures. Subtle offworld Tri-Ds will be shown in art house
> theaters, or maybe a clever drama from some smaller world will make it on
> the public channel.
What about shows aimed at the 'commen imperial citzen'? Semi-propagandic Action
shows based around the Navy or Marines? MoJ police stuff chasing down Ine Givar
or Swordies or Joes or Hiver manipulations or whatever? The Imperial Ministry of
propaganda must be very busy...
Also...what about the 'Bollywood' concept? India (a high pop place if ever I saw
one) has a bigger move industry than America...but most of its product is for
local release cos the 'western' world is under the sway of 'Hollywood' ...
Other Rob
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 16:48:48 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Penis Size Wars
John Fox wrote:
>
> OK EVERYONE:
> TAKE THREE STEPS BACK, PUT THE FIREARMS DOWN AND LETS TALK!!!
Perhaps you should have said "put the _guns_ down...." ("This is my
rifle, this is my gun....")
>
> Average size (as documented in several studies)
> Length 6 inches
> Diameter 2 inches (We will be generous here)
>
> Total volume = L X pi X r^2
> 6" X pi X 1"^2
> 6" X pi X 1""
> 6in^3 X pi
> 18.85 in^3
>
> Density of Liquid H2 is 1 ton equals 13.5 M^3 (as given in traveller book)
> 1 in = 2.54 cm
> 1 M = 100 cm.
> 1 M = 39.37 in
> 1M^3 = 39.37 ^3 = 61.02 X 10^3 in^3
>
> Thus
> Average volume of said object diveded by volume of ton gives percentage of ton
>
> 18.85 / 61.02 X 10^3 = 308.9 X 10^-6
>
<<snip discussion of mass>>
Funny. I always thought the standard Traveller penis displaced 40 tons
of LHyd (see Book 2, page 18; T4, page 100; and GT [1st edition], page
141).
<<snip>>
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:47:55 -0500
From: "Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (religion and Evolution)
> Where does that leave Gnosticism (ie direct experience of the divine, in
> whatever form)? Are gnostic experiences as scientifically valid as the
field
> of psychology?
>
> Dean
I've been trying to stay quite in this whole discussion but the above
comment really pushed my buttons...
Psychology is as much a science as physics. Psychologists construct a
hypothesis based on observation, test that hypothesis in a controlled
environment and either accept or reject the hypothesis based on those tests.
Many people seem to confuse the term clinician with psychologist. It's kind
of like saying that an architect is a physicist. Application of theory vs.
development of that theory.
Anthony Colosetti
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 09:52:38 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
"Jones, Dean" wrote:
> >>
> >>If Current trends are any indication, we can expect the
> >exported shows to be
> >>action/sex (Baywatch and cop shows)
> >
> >Next on 'MoJ Blues'....
> >
> >A Baywatch-type show might be exported, if the actors were
> >recognizable
> >accross several worlds, but I can't see it becoming popular accross an
> >entire subsector. Then again, I can't see why Baywatch got
> >popular in the
> >first place. :6
> >
> >>or very broad slapstick--things that
> >>will cross cultures.
> >
> >I just got the sudden image of "Hiver slapstick." Starring,
> >M. Moe, M.
> >Larry, and M. Curley....
> >
> >*waves fingers* Subtitle: "Oooh, a wise Vargr! Nyuk nyuk nyuk!"
> >
> >
>
> LOL Like it! Interesting that the Three Hivers are all manipulators...
>
If they're getting their show screened in Imperial space...I think there
would *have* to be some manipulation going on....
Other Rob
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 09:54:40 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller, the True Calling
Mark Urbin wrote:
> "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com> types:
> > >Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
> > >>At 2:07 PM +1300 2/8/01, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> > >> >Okay, how about we all sit on our hands for a few minutes
> > >and think this
> > >> >one through. This is not only *way* off topic, but potentially as
> > >> explosive as
> > >> >the dreaded "Gun Control". May I humbly suggest we drop this.
> > >>I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew. I'm disgusted with the
> > >>unbelievable lameness of you people. Why can't we go back to
> > >>fighting over penis size? This is simply pathetic.
> > >Length, width or simply volume?
> > >Oh ya, just were *do* the Sayat fit into all of this?
> >Remember this is Traveller, Mark. Penis size should be measured by tonnage
> >of liquid hydrogen it displaces.
>
> Opps...I stand (along with the other tripods) corrected.
>
> I'm reminded of a SF "short" story I read years ago about a man who is
> *seriously* injured.
> One of the replacement parts he gets is a cyberpenis. The hospital staff
> askes him to select a model that resembled his natural equipment.' Of
> course he added a few inches when selecting the new model.
>
> This option is covered in GURPS:Robots & GURPS:Biotech.
>
Of course you remember what happened when it was combined with a Cyberleg? and
what happened at the end of the story?
Other Rob
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 09:56:22 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: Religion
James Jensen wrote:
> I would like to suggest that religion be a "taboo" subject from now on. The
> fact is that religion is THE MOST TOUCHY SUBJECT that there is. And, aside
> from the ethics and morals of play (something best left to the individual
> groups and gamers), it is irrelevant to Traveller.
>
> In Traveller, evolution is fact. And, within this context, I can accept
> that.
>
Well...that and the Ancients fooled around some....
> So, let's file this whole thing in with near-C rocks and that stuff.
>
we could file it *on* a near-c rock....
Other Rob
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 09:59:40 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> >From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> "A Baywatch-type show might be exported, if the actors were
> recognizable accross several worlds..."
>
> Do you think the Zhodani hit "Law & Order: Tavrchedl' Unit" will do
> well in the Imperial market? I'm trying to put together SuSAG's quarterly
> media buys....
>
yes...but it'll need subtitles...
Other Rob
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 14:58:13 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Government Code questions
> What about shows aimed at the 'commen imperial citzen'? Semi-propagandic
Action
> shows based around the Navy or Marines? MoJ police stuff chasing down Ine
Givar
> or Swordies or Joes or Hiver manipulations or whatever? The Imperial
Ministry of
> propaganda must be very busy...
Naturally. Though if Hollywood is any indication, the Tri-D industry will
provide the material. The Imperiumk will become involved indirectly by
supporting the 'right' (i.e. pro-Imperial) shows by allowing filming aboord
real naval vessels, bases, etc. Making the life of the filmaker much easier,
without worrying about being accused of making propaganda or censorship.
Government agents hunting down the enemy of the day is a natural. Dick
Salamander, super-spy hero of a dozen or more Spinward Marches Tri-Ds
naturally works for some (unspecified) government (Imperial) agency. The
one where you get cool gadgets, spiffy clothes and a nice vehicle to tool
around in. (All the real agents want to know which agency this is, so they
can transfer).
The Imperium is shown in a good light, and naturally, the producer/director
of the show gets lots of cooperation from the Imperium. Occasionally, real
Marches nobles and Senior military types appear in cameos as themselves.
It's all good fun, but it puts the Imperium in the correct light, and keeps
alive the idea that the ENEMY is always trying to chip away at the 3I.
There's also the typical 'recruiting' shows. Think of "Top Gun", which
could have been a recruiting add for naval aviation.
>
> Also...what about the 'Bollywood' concept? India (a high pop place if ever
I saw
> one) has a bigger move industry than America...but most of its product is
for
> local release cos the 'western' world is under the sway of 'Hollywood' ...
>
> Other Rob
I would think the the equivalent of Bollywood would be the local (planetary)
industry. It may not have the high production values of the big Tri-D world
(where is this place anyway?) but it's output is targeted to the local
consumer.
This naturally raises the question, and I'll confine this to the Spinward
Marches for LandGrab purposes--where is the center of the
Tri-D/entertainment industry in the Marches? What planet is the 'Hollywood'
equivalent?
Tod
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:03:34 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: [TML] Boing -- er, no, "Exported Video," sorry
Jonathan McDermott wrote:
> >Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:55:38 -0800
> >From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> >Subject: Re: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
> >
> > > A Baywatch-type show might be exported, if the actors were recognizable
> > > accross several worlds, but I can't see it becoming popular accross an
> > > entire subsector. Then again, I can't see why Baywatch got popular in the
> > > first place. :6
> > >
> >
> >I don't think it's popular because the actors are recognized. Think slow
> >motion shot of character running on beach.
> >
> >Tod
> >
> >------------------------------
>
> Oh, THAT. Yeesh, if I wanted that, I could just play DOA2 and set my age
> to 'dirty old man.' =)
>
> (Maybe THIS thread should be titled 'Boing' instead of the previous message?)
>
> ObTrav: The RSB notes that Zhodani don't get all that excited about nekkid
> folks (stinks to be them...) so it's probably safe to assume that other
> cultures won't appreciate the... ahhhhhh, artistry, so to
> speak. Certainly, Vargr would probably have at least slightly different
> cultural mores than humans, so I don't think Baywatch will really appeal to
> John-Doe-Vargr Gvurrzegh or your average Vegan. Unless someone got the
> bright idea of doing a multi-species Baywatch. To which my mind replies:
> "Oh, that is just plain WRONG!" for some reason. =)
>
No dogs on the beach....
Other rob
(can you just imagine the vargr equivelent of Pamela Anderson-Lee?)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:05:35 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Boing -- er, no, "Exported Video," sorry
I was trying NOT to ;)
Quick!!!! Don't think of a pink elephant!
See what I mean? :D
Jesse
> >
>
> No dogs on the beach....
>
> Other rob
>
> (can you just imagine the vargr equivelent of Pamela Anderson-Lee?)
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 23:06:55 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions)
>From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
"Also...what about the 'Bollywood' concept? India (a high pop place if ever
I saw one) has a bigger move industry than America...but most of its product
is for local release cos the 'western' world is under the sway of
'Hollywood' ..."
Other Rob
I can see all sorts of entertainment media from many worlds finding
niches on other worlds. Despite many many bad examples, humanity is rather
xenophilic. Just the fad factor will help many of the cross- overs; look at
the current anime fad in the US.
Whether or not every nuance of a peice of entertainment will be picked
on is much less certain. Friends in the UK tell mee half the humor on
"Monty Python" involved the charecters accents and thus was completely lost
to the legion of fans in North America. The best way it was explained to me
was to imagine a neurosurgeon charecter on SNL who sounds like Jethro Bodine
of the Beverly Hillbillies.
Jiggle shows would be marketed very carfully and not just becuse of the
usual "we wrap our women in bedsheets" reasons. Standards of beauty and
what's considered obscene very widely too. There was a recent post about a
sci-fi short story in which only the navel had to be covered while swimming.
As for standards of beauty, I was informed during a biz trip to southern
India that the standard of feamle beauty there involved eyebrows so
"luxurious" that they'd do Ed Asner or Andy Rooney proud. Don't think that
might come across too well elsewhere.
Speaking of "Bollywood" India's film, I don't think Hollywood's
supposed sranglehold on worldwide film distribution has anything to do with
that lack of Indian film not being exported. First, the domestic audience
is so huge that the films are strongly skewed towards local mores. Second,
the Bollywood product is almost uniformly HORRIFIC. Believe me, if Ed Wood
had worked there, the locals would think of him as Speilberg. I've seen
better film on a four day old glass of milk.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 18:16:29 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: Science Fiction
On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:59:39 -0500 (EST), "DaveShayne"
<daveshayne@email.msn.com> wrote:
>Subject: Re: Science Fiction
>> Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:32:10 -0800
>> From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
>> Subject: Re: Science Fiction
>> You had paper tape? I used to *dream* of programming with paper tape.
>> When we wanted to solve a problem we had to build a big stone circle
>> in the middle of a plain and wait for the winter solistice.
>You think that's bad. We'd've been lucky to have the plain. We had to get
>up at six in the morning and level the mountains with our bare hands to get
>a plain to build in the middle of.
Hands? What kind of luxury is this, "hands"? And on top of that, the
mountains we had to level for the plains to build on hadn't been raised,
yet; we had to raise them ourselves, with nothing better than pseudopodia
extruded from our undifferentiated cytoplasm to work with!
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:05:57 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
> Remember this is Traveller, Mark. Penis size should be measured by
> tonnage of liquid hydrogen it displaces.
SPLORT!!!
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 18:18:13 -0500
From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Boing -- er, no, "Exported Video," sorry
>Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:56:30 -0600
>From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] Boing -- er, no, "Exported Video," sorry
>
>Ah, but you forgot the Ever-Artistic Aslan with their monogrammed Thongs and
>Speedos...
>
>------------------------------
For 'artistic' you want the Ithklur. =)
- ---
==============================================================
Jonathan McDermott, CNE/MCSE NOSPAMcaraig@mindspring.com
System Administrator http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------
Anubis@SpatialWastes -*- Caraig,Dermott@FurryMUCK
IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@
- ------------------------------------------------------------
"Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."
-Steve Wozniak
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 23:27:51 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
>John Groth wrote:
"In the next week or so, I will be mobilized to serve in the fifth
year of the one-year peacekeeping mission in the Balkans."
Bruce Johnson wrote:
"Hey John, good luck.
Something I've not heard said a lot, but you folks _are_ doing good
over there. Yes it's been a five year long 'one-year mission' but they
_haven't_been running each other into mass graves again, either.
Keeping peace is a very important mission, and you all deserve great
recognition for a difficult task."
Let me add my thanks here too. The mission is important and you and
your unit should be commended. If the media chooses to ignore that, it's
because they're ratings-driven assholes and not the selfless diseminators of
information they like to pretend they are. (Ever notice how they ALWAYS seem
to do a special on breast cancer druing sweeps? Got nothing to do with the
boobs, right?)
I spent quite a bit of my life convoying oil tankers belonging to folks
who hated me and prtoecting them from two sets of chuckleheads that could be
used as an argument against both evolution AND creation.
We did that job very well and for a very long time, but the only press we
got was when we took casulties.
You and your unit are going to do your jobs and do them well. And
because you're doing them, along with the Brits and French, there will be a
whole bunch of kids who'll get to grow up. Keep that in mind, but don't
expect them to thank you.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:30:24 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions)
Speaking of "Bollywood" India's film, I don't think Hollywood's
> supposed sranglehold on worldwide film distribution has anything to do
with
> that lack of Indian film not being exported. First, the domestic audience
> is so huge that the films are strongly skewed towards local mores.
Second,
> the Bollywood product is almost uniformly HORRIFIC. Believe me, if Ed
Wood
> had worked there, the locals would think of him as Speilberg. I've seen
> better film on a four day old glass of milk.
>
Something not unique to India. Check out the 'cult' section of you local
video store. There's plenty of American fodder that is absolutely painful
to watch-- or funny, dependy on your taste. MST3K anyone?
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 18:44:52 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> Evolution doesn't require me to believe anything that a farmer breediong
> for different traits has seen with his or her own eyes over and over
again.
Not being a farmer, I did not know that I could breed a cow and a pig and
get zebra... or anything else, for that matter.
;-)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 18:52:11 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 23:02:15 -0500 (EST), sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
>I also take strong issue with anyone (religious person, scientist or
>whatever) who states that science has any innate conflict with
>religion. If your religion contradicts established science, it is not
>only incorrect, it is deal with areas that I think are not appropriate
>for religion. Such people are normally doing pseudo-science
>disguised as religion.
>If a scientist thinks they can prove or disprove the existence of the
>souls or life after death (Tippler's Omega Point nonsense comes to
>mind) they are doing bad science, or more often religion disguised
>as science.
Thank you.
I've always taken a short description of the proper spheres of science and
religion to be
"Science asks what the universe is. Religion asks why."
It's a little bit of an oversimplification, but I think it's largely
usable...
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 18:52:16 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Big Bang
On Thu, 8 Feb 2001 08:40:12 -0500 (EST), Matt Bond
<MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Effectively the big bang *is* God, in as much as it created everything
>in our universe...
"And G-d said, 'Let there be Light!' And He was Light."
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3621
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3622
Date: | 2/8/01 9:09:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Friday, February 9 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3622
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Anti-RPG (LONG)
Re: Anti-RPG
inflation of Imperial Naval vessels
Re: Flamewars IYTU/Rebellions - longish
Re: inflation of Imperial Naval vessels
Re: Hinterworlds
Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Missing Sites
keeper of the keyboard kill card
Re: Government Code questions
Re: Boing
Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
Re: Penis Size Wars
Re: Islands subsectors
hey, anyone else?
Re: hey, anyone else?
Re: Science Fiction
Re: Penis Size Wars (and Ravioli Rail-Gun Question)
Re: the religion flamewar
Re: Anti-RPG
RE: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Re: Penis Size Wars (and Ravioli Rail-Gun Question)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:39:03 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (LONG)
Dear Folks -
Bruce responded to Zane:
> While some of the facts in the RPG article seem to be more than a little
> far-fetched (actually some sound like downright lies, calculated to
invoke
> outrage, to me personally) I think it makes some very valid points.
There was a lot of rubbish and not a few downright lies in the cartoon,
which unfortunately undermines any valid points that good ol' Chick may be
trying to make.
(Um, were there any? Maybe one or two - well hidden.)
>> I've
>> become more than a little concerned with the effects of RPG's, CCG's,
and
>> *Computers* on impressionable minds.
>
>Or the WWF, or Mighty Mouse and Roadrunner cartoons, or MAD Magazine, or
>Bible Study, for that matter...
I once read a book called "Playing With Fire" that identified four supposed
dangers of RPGs. While it was a little saner than the frothing-at-the-mouth
tracts of Chick, two of the dangers were rubbish, one was almost
reasonable, and one was valid. The one really valid point warned about the
amount of involvement (in time and money) that a person could sink into a
game.
The almost-reasonable point was related - that people could become too
involved and lose their grip in reality, or at least end up with distorted
priorities (it's just a GAME, right?).
Bruce recognised this when he said:
>People with personalites like that are going to obsess over _something_,
>be it D&D, Magic the Gathering, football, WWF...something.
Like anything taken to extremes, really. There was a bloke on Oz TV a few
weeks ago who was totally obsessed with Rugby League and the Eels footy
team - and I mean _totally_ - to an extent that his wife and kids left him.
In other words, the problem (addiction, obsessiveness) is not confined to
RPGs. However, it is valid to warn against it - just like you wouldn't let
your kids watch too much TV or sink all their money into MtG or bubble-gum
cards. (Comics are another matter - "after all, they're an _investment_,
right?" ;-) ;-)
>I would think that the grasp on reality bit is a lot lower at the
>average Billy Graham revival than at most SF Conventions. These are
>peple who think that the preacher smacking them on the face will cure
>them of cancer.
<quibble>
I don't think ol' Billy's into that. Others are, though, so point taken.
</quibble>
>These are the people who send in money to the teevee preachers who
>announce public prayers to 'heal their Pontiacs!' (True story, I heard
>it myself on a radio evangelist show.
Part of the modern "Prosperity Doctrine", no doubt - and totally
un-Biblical. If only these people would read the original source instead of
accepting how someone else "interprets" it for them. It's not like the book
is locked away any more (not since Gutenberg came along, anyway ;-).
(FWIW, this is the whole idea behind "Life of Brian". The Python guys said
they weren't mocking Christ (in fact he said a lot of good things), they
were mocking the people who purported to be speaking on his behalf or
interpreting what he said - "Blessed are the cheese-makers", and all that.)
>Evolution is not a religion, but a tested (and proven) scientific
>theory.
<quibble>
Scientific proof requires experimental repeatability. That's a little hard
for historical events. Historical proof is a little different when it comes
to "testing" and "proving" it, and the difference is an important one.
</quibble>
<rant>
Pet peeve: if it's fact, why is it called a "theory"? It's taught as though
it were fact.
</rant>
>If you choose to believe that Science is a religion, I pity you for your
>profound ignorance.
You have to be fair about this. Both sides of the argument bring along
their own baggage when they approach the questions of Life, the Universe,
and Everything. If you don't believe that miracles are possible, you won't
ever see miracles. If you don't believe that evolution is possible, you'll
ignore anything that points to evolution. Like the classic Old West old
timer who, when confronted with a giraffe, said "There ain't no setch
animal!"
It is very hard for either side to be objective about a thing that,
depending on the answer, would change their entire world-view.
BTW, what has all this got to do with Traveller?
(Actually, that's a bit tongue-in-cheek. The persecution of RPGs has a LOT
to do with Trav, since it is one, and thus is a valid discussion topic.)
Which reminds me: for a long time, I've had a broken link to "Q&A About
RPG's" by... _Loren Wiseman_ and Michael Stackpole. Loren, where did the
article disappear to?
In the meantime, there's a quite different Christian perspective on RPGs
from M. J. Young. Here's his main page:
http://members.aol.com/MarkJYoung/
His main page links to "Confessions of a Dungeons & Dragons Addict", or you
can use the direct link here:
http://members.aol.com/MarkJYoung/confess.html
Also his main page has a link to the The Alignment Quiz (apparently, even
Gary Gygax liked it - make of that what you will ;-). I took it for my
neutral good mage, and he came out perfectly; 4 points toward Law (where <
8 means Neutral), and 26 points towards Good (out of a max 30). Worth a
look - you can certainly use "alignment" as part of the basis for any
character's motivations in any RPG. Just be sure to read the
disclaimer/explanation given at the top of the quiz:
> "First, this is to be answered from the perspective of your character,
> and not from your own view. You may disagree strongly with your
character,
> or believe he is a little one-sided on some issues; but it is the
> character's answer to the question which matters. Second, alignment is
not
> a character trait or a byword or a club. Alignment is a belief system, a
> core value in a theological philosophy of life. This is, at the heart,
> what your character believes the world is or should be like."
That is, you should use "alignment" as an influence on your PC's actions,
without being strait-jacketed to it. It could help to flesh out any PC's
motivations.
And be sure to check out the Temporal Anomalies page, where Mark examines a
number of (sorry, that should read *MANY*) time-travel movies in relation
to how they handle the nature of time. All you ever wanted to know (and
more!) about the anomalies caused by time-travel - N-Jumps, Infinity Loops,
and Sawtooth Snaps. Just allow yourself a little time (haha) to take it all
in (my brain hurts). ;-) You can reach it from his Links page, or this
direct reference:
http://www.geocities.com/area51/rampart/6040/
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 15:59:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
SwordWorlder writes:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> > Evolution doesn't require me to believe anything that a farmer breediong
> > for different traits has seen with his or her own eyes over and over
> again.
>
> Not being a farmer, I did not know that I could breed a cow and a pig and
> get zebra... or anything else, for that matter.
You can, however, breed a turkey (normally fairly small) into a 20 pound lump
of white meat only capable of breeding by articial insemination.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:05:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: inflation of Imperial Naval vessels
you do recall the time the Zhodani on Esalin ordered a case of condoms
from the Imperials. As part of a psyop, the specifications called for
30cm long and 10cm wide, made of very strong flexible synthetic material.
The Imperial factory on the other side of the border manufactured them to
specs and delivered them several days early. The Zhodani were not amused
to discover that the condom wrappers were all marked, "condom, one each,
color: clear, size: small."
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 19:18:17 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com>
Subject: Re: Flamewars IYTU/Rebellions - longish
At 03:58 PM 2/8/01 +0000, Peter and another wrote:
<SNIP>
> "(Don't worry, this *is* Traveller related.)"
>"Yet one of the cornerstones (as I understand it) of the 3I is
>that the 3I rules the space between the planets, the planets
>themselves were largely self-governing. So while the Subsector
>Duke orders in a Imp Marine force to secure the highly important
>shipyards might not there be some protests on other planets
>across the sector at this interventionist action?"
><SNIP>
> The PCs must vidoetape a few of the leaders' sermons, without them
> knowing it. They also must get a smaple of the rust stain for analysis
> so that the Imperium's civil affairs agents can use it in their oen press
> offensive. They might be tasked to determine just where all the money is
> going and whether there is any off-world involvement. Is this just a
> popular groundswell to loosen the cultural strictures of this world, or
> is it a Zho plot?
THIS is what makes the TML so valuable to me... Even a flamish sort of
topic can breed great OBTRAV ideas!
Bill Rutherford
worj@home.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:32:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: inflation of Imperial Naval vessels
On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Glenn Goffin wrote:
> you do recall the time the Zhodani on Esalin ordered a case of condoms
> from the Imperials. As part of a psyop, the specifications called for
> 30cm long and 10cm wide, made of very strong flexible synthetic material.
> The Imperial factory on the other side of the border manufactured them to
> specs and delivered them several days early. The Zhodani were not amused
> to discover that the condom wrappers were all marked, "condom, one each,
> color: clear, size: small."
congrats. you owe UCSF a keyboard. where should I send the bill?
lol, luckily they are more durable than that...
kiri-chan ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 18:44:02 +0000
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Hinterworlds
I no longer have the actual challege magazine, but I do have the
Hinterworlds insert.
If you need something out of it I can try to scan it and email......
Doug
dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca
(LLB since 1978!)
Loren Wiseman wrote:
>
> I need to speak/communicate ASAP to someone who owns a copy of the
> Challenge with the Hinterworlds article (#39 -- I have 38 and 40, evidently
> 39 is still 1100 miles away).
>
> Reply to both lkw@io.com and gdwgames@aol.com please.
>
> Loren Wiseman
> Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
> Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society http://jtas.sjgames.com/
> SJ Games
> lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
> (512) 447-7866 VOX
> (512) 447-1144 FAX
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:44:06 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Well that was a keyboard kill.
And a horrific mental image as well.
Ben
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jones, Dean <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 2:32 PM
Subject: RE: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
>
>
>
> >
> >Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
> >>At 2:07 PM +1300 2/8/01, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> >> >Okay, how about we all sit on our hands for a few minutes
> >and think this
> >> >one through. This is not only *way* off topic, but potentially as
> >> explosive as
> >> >the dreaded "Gun Control". May I humbly suggest we drop this.
> >>I wholeheartedly agree with Andrew. I'm disgusted with the
> >>unbelievable lameness of you people. Why can't we go back to
> >>fighting over penis size? This is simply pathetic.
> >
> >Length, width or simply volume?
> >
> >Oh ya, just were *do* the Sayat fit into all of this?
>
> Remember this is Traveller, Mark. Penis size should be measured by tonnage
> of liquid hydrogen it displaces.
>
> Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 01:27:20 -0000
From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Missing Sites
With all these site reviews going on I decided to really get some work on
updating my site :-), the fact that I have 10 days off is helping of
course.
Anyway whilst checking my links I found some sites missing, can anyone help
with the following.
The Traveller Atlas seems to have disappeared, anyone have any idea where it
has moved to or if there is an equivalent site out there.
Original Url: http://www.vvm.com/~dward0/home.html
Clifford Linehan's project to map the entire Zhodani Core Expedition
sectors website
Original Url : http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller
Peter
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk (Trav & AD&D)
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
And life is harsh and rarely fair.
Never appeal to a man's 'better nature.' He may not have one.
Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love (By Robert.Heinlan)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 17:48:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: keeper of the keyboard kill card
John, I can't volunteer my services as I am already over-extended, but
along with the rest of the crew I wish you good luck and safety. You have
a difficult, dangerous, and really thankless (in that people have pretty
much forgotten about it) job to do. Reasonable people may differ over
whether it is the right or most effective thing to be doing, but that does
not diminish the nobility of the act.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 02:04:20 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Government Code questions
on 8/2/01 7:31 am, Thom Jones-Low at tjoneslo@together.net wrote:
> What I might suggest is to get a subscription to the online JTAS
> http://jtas.sjgames.com and look through the archives. There was a
> series of articles by Matt Stevens describing the various traveller
> government types, one per article. While they may not exactly match what
> everyone has in mind IYTU, they should be a good basis for answering
> your basic questions and allowing you to ask more, better ones.
I second this. It's a useful article. In fact, given that there's a whole
year of JTAS articles in the vaults, the subscription is an absolute
bargain. I'm very happy that I subscribed to this resource.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 02:04:22 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Boing
on 8/2/01 9:20 am, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:
> *ahem* I invite you to look ionto the Twin Giants, PepsiCo and Coca-Cola.
> I have considered an illuminati game where everything that has happened
> since 1950 has been caused by these two rivals.
>
> For ex: In the 1950s, Coke had almost complete domination of the Cuban
> market (fact). So Pepsi arranges Castro's little movement. But Coke
> counterstrikes by making sure that the American government isolates Cuba!
It seems amazing, but there are parallels with better known wars caused and
financed by petrochemical companies. Any huge corporation may perform such
actions. The indications are there on a smaller scale - in the 1960s and
1970s, an organised crime gang war exploded out of the Glasgow ice cream
trade. To bring the vendettas involving murder, destruction of property
(houses, warehouses, ice cream vans, etc) and other violent crime to a halt,
several whole families and workforces had to be sent to prison. Ice cream
and fizzy drinks are just as valid to fight over as oil and precious metals.
Gordon.
ObTrav: The players are hired to operate an ice cream van in a nearby
neighbourhood, unaware of informal agreements over 'allotted turf'.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 02:04:22 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
on 8/2/01 4:48 am, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:
> In the next week or so, I will be mobilized to serve in the fifth year
> of the one-year peacekeeping mission in the Balkans.
>
> This means that I will be unable to read every TML post. As a result, I
> will not be able to archive every TML keyboard kill.
>
> I therefore humbly ask for a volunteer to take over this task.
I'm afraid as a list newbie, I haven't an idea about what you're on about.
Which would probably make me a perfect volunteer, but I'm not that mad. :)
But good luck in SFOR or whichever force you're being assigned to.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 02:41:23 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Penis Size Wars
on 8/2/01 10:48 pm, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:
> <<snip discussion of mass>>
>
> Funny. I always thought the standard Traveller penis displaced 40 tons
> of LHyd (see Book 2, page 18; T4, page 100; and GT [1st edition], page
> 141).
>
> <<snip>>
Actually, Book 2, page 17 if you've looking in version 1, but I see what
you're driving at (fnarr, fnarr). :)
Gordon.
PS: You do realise that it's fashionable for nobles in Solomani space to
travel intra-system in custom-built oversized pinnaces? Hence: "Did you hear
that Baroness F'fnarr got herself a big fat pinnace?"
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:46:51 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
> From: "Peter Scarrott"
> What is the first date for deep space refuelling after the Rule of Man
> and Long Night. If there is no canonical data for deep space refuelling
> could this then explain the failure of the 3rd Imperium to reach the
> Islands?
IIRC, during the Julian War the Julian fleets crossed part of the Lesser
Rift when they raided into the rear of the Imperial fleets.
I would take it that the technique is known, but isn't usually viable for
commercial purposes. For the Imperium, no trade = no interest. The
Islands aren't anywhere they would _want_ to go.
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:51:51 -0700
From: "A. Batishko" <abatish@utah-inter.net>
Subject: hey, anyone else?
I recently moved into the Salt Lake City area. Any of you guys from around
there? I'm really missing my old RPG group...
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:02:07 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: hey, anyone else?
"A. Batishko" wrote:
>
> I recently moved into the Salt Lake City area. Any of you guys from around
> there? I'm really missing my old RPG group...
Well, if you check out the TML roster at:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr/
you'll find that there are two folks who are (or at least were) TMLers
in Utah. More than that, I cannot say for sure.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 19:58:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Science Fiction
In mail you write:
>>I hate to burst your bubble, but *I* started programming using FORTRAN
>>IV on an IBM 370. I've toggled in bootstrap code on a Honeywell
>>"mainframe" that used 6-bit words, and couldn't handle more than 32k
>>words of RAM. And I still have a couple of programs punched into paper
>>tape as "historical artifacts" for impressing the newbies. Right along
>>with a couple of 5 meg diskpacks from and IBM 2311 drive, and a 256
>>*byte* core plane.
>
> You had paper tape? I used to *dream* of programming with paper tape.
> When we wanted to solve a problem we had to build a big stone circle
> in the middle of a plain and wait for the winter solistice.
>
> Paper tape - kids these days don't know how good they have it.
Want to borrow one of my abacuses? (and yes, I really *do* have several
:-)
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:11:36 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Penis Size Wars (and Ravioli Rail-Gun Question)
Dear Folks -
John mused:
>Funny. I always thought the standard Traveller penis displaced 40 tons
>of LHyd (see Book 2, page 18; T4, page 100; and GT [1st edition], page
>141).
Is that the slow or fast one? With or without the wings?
;-)
On another topic, John, you might know the answer to this: Howard Tayler
(Schlock Mercenary) would like to know who came up with the calcs for the
Raviolli Rail-Gun. Do you know?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 23:31:16 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com>
Subject: Re: the religion flamewar
At 10:05 PM 2/7/01 -0800, Kiri wrote:
><SNIP>Among the many
>reasons I intend to emigrate is the constant push to try and take over the
>US government. It's not high on my list of reasons, because I don't think
>it is likely to succeed, but it is on there.
??? To where?
Bill Rutherford
worj@home.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:31:57 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
Dear Folks -
Andrew said:
>Okay, how about we all sit on our hands for a few minutes and think this
>one through. This is not only *way* off topic, but potentially as
explosive as
>the dreaded "Gun Control". May I humbly suggest we drop this.
Ahh! Sorry, Andrew, sent my post before I read your request. OK, I'll stop
and sit on my hands.
Altho i fond tie=ping w/nose iz v.difkilt!
;-)
Ah me, this must be a Friday!
>Uhmm does resurrection from a keyboard kill count as a miracle?
ROFL!
James wrote:
>I would like to suggest that religion be a "taboo" subject
>from now on.
Actually, the original subject (attacks on RPGs) IS a viable discussion
topic; it's just that it degenerated - diverged slightly - OK, misjumped 36
parsecs off-topic.
From Glenn:
>Also, while we're on that subject, remember that one sophont's noise is
>another's signal.
Or, from my website, "One person's web page is another person's kill-file".
John wrote:
>Please do not judge all christians by the acts of a few.
Amen to that!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 23:51:21 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com>
Subject: RE: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
At 10:01 AM 2/8/01 -0800, Glenn wrote:
> >From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
>
> >I'm game....... shall we talk about our RPG penises or our
> >mundane penises?
>
>You know, I once ran a rather enviably endowed pirate character named
>Bates. He thought he was quite a good dancer, and once he tried to
>fandango on skates. Unfortunately, he tripped on his cutlass, which
>rendered him nutless, and practically useless on dates.
Uhhh... If we're going to ban near-C rocks and religion, could we
*possibly* ban really, really bad poetry, too?
Bill Rutherford
worj@home.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 23:11:08 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Penis Size Wars (and Ravioli Rail-Gun Question)
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
>
<<snip>>
>
> On another topic, John, you might know the answer to this: Howard Tayler
> (Schlock Mercenary) would like to know who came up with the calcs for the
> Raviolli Rail-Gun. Do you know?
Well, I have an archival copy of the Ravioli Rail-Gun post. It includes
the following e-mail addresses:
"Peter H. Brenton" pbrenton@mit.edu : Originally posted the RRG to the
TML
0xdeadbeef@substance.abuse.blackdown.org : A recipient of the RRG post
glen mccready glen@qnx.com : Apparently the originator of the RRG
Note that the RRG was originally posted to the TML on 30 Dec 1998, so
some or all of the above e-mail addresses may be obsolete.
Hope this helps!
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3622
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3623
Date: | 2/8/01 11:06:53 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, February 9 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3623
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Traffic control (was: 52 million ton hull!)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3618
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3622
Regina (Was: Islands subsectors)
Re: LASER...err...Laser heat dissipation
GT: Problems in Jumpspace
Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: TL7 PCs with starships (was Re: Science Fiction)
Re: 52 million ton hull!
MIME (was Re: (no subject))
Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
Re: Islands -- bad example?
[FILK] a first and two lasts.
re: Islands - Bad example?
Re: ***SNORE***
Re: Gun Control
Re: GT Cargo question
Re: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
re: Theory of Evolution
Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:49:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traffic control (was: 52 million ton hull!)
In mail you write:
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> [Tim Little wrote:]
>> > engines can still maneuver somewhat, while spaceships without power
>> > must keep going in a straight line, no matter what might be in the
>> > way.
>
>> Actually, a straight line is the *last* thing they'll be following.
>
> I originally typed "geodesic", but figured most people wouldn't
> understand it and it wasn't essential to the description, so I
> replaced it with the closest analog in common speech. Clearly I
> should have stuck with the original (highly pedantic) phrasing.
Well, I try not to be *too* pedantic. But I also try to avoid letting
stuff get *too* simplified.
>> Orbital mechanics makes manuevering near a planet "interesting". The
>> direction you apply thrust in isn't the direction you intend to
>> go. The relationship is non-intuitive.
>
> For ships with the delta-V and thrust capability of Traveller ships,
> orbital mechanics is far less important than it is with our primitive
> technology. It must still be taken into account as a correction, but
> nearly every Traveller ship for which I've seen specifications has the
> ability to overcome any habitable planet's gravity by "brute force"
> with no non-intuitive thrust directions necessary.
There are some older designs that only have 1g maneuver drives.
>> It's worse than that, as you will want trajectories such that if the
>> drive fails at any given moment, the resulting orbit will not be
>> dangerous to the ship or to anything else in the vicinity for at least
>> many hours (to give time to get a big enough tug out to them).
>
> Yes, that's what makes it an interesting problem.
Isn't it just. <eg>
>> G. Harry Stine, writing as "Lee Correy" dealt with some of the "fun"
>> for space traffic control in his novel "Manna" (I think that was the
>> title). If you can find a copy, read it.
>>
>> Stine was both a pilot *and* familar with orbital mechanics and the
>> like. So his ideas are about the most realistic we'll see before we
>> really *do* have to set up such a system.
>
> Sounds like fun :) I'll see if I can find a copy.
Just about all his stuff as "Lee Correy" is at least worth a read. He
got a bit of notoriety when "Shuttle Down" was re-released just before
the Challenger accident.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 00:10:36 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3618
> Thank you very much. I'm now stuck with an image in my head of a
> female Vargr running along a beach in slow mo ... snout open,
> tongue lolling from side to side with the paces, and ... how many
> bikini tops?!?!?!?!
Three.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 00:33:28 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3622
In a message dated 08-Feb-01 11:09:42 PM Central Standard Time,
owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
> you do recall the time the Zhodani on Esalin ordered a case of condoms
> from the Imperials. As part of a psyop, the specifications called for
> 30cm long and 10cm wide, made of very strong flexible synthetic material.
> The Imperial factory on the other side of the border manufactured them to
> specs and delivered them several days early. The Zhodani were not amused
> to discover that the condom wrappers were all marked, "condom, one each,
> color: clear, size: small."
There are only three sizes of condoms: Large, Extra-Large, and Omigawd!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 06:40:12 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Regina (Was: Islands subsectors)
Glenn Goffin writes:
>>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>
>>Regina was settled by a group of utopians who wanted a world far, far
>>away from the Imperium.
>
>Hans, do you have a canonical source for that comment? My current
>campaign starts on Regina, and I'd like to keep track of how far off-canon
>my universe is. (My Regina sounds close to this concept, having been
>settled initially by members of the New Catholic Church, which aligned
>itself with Sylea and opposed the ancient church of Rome.)
That depends on whether you regard JTAS Online articles as canon. In my article
"Mora -- Year 100" I included a few Library Data bits to give people a feel for
Mora's surroundings. One of them was:
"_Six Worlds Subsector:_ Subsector C of Spinward Marches. Named after a cluster
of six Human-prime and Human-norm planets that were found by the original scout
expedition and struck the fancy of several utopian groups in the core. All six
worlds (and several more) have already been settled."
One of those six worlds is, of course, Regina. I do have some more details
about Regina's early history, but they haven't been published. I'd be most
interested in seeing anything you have developed (especially if you won't
mind me using it).
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 20:55:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: LASER...err...Laser heat dissipation
In mail you write:
> And this is a good example of how tunnel vision prevents problems from being
> solved...
>
> There has been a refrain that one can't "pot" a laser (or LASER) because the
> heat must be dissipated.
>
> The unspoken assumption is that the heat must be _dissipated_. I would offer
> that the heat may be absorbed by material not unlike what is used on the
> present day space shuttle heat shield. Material that can absorb heat rapidly
> and dissipate it very slowly. If the entire LASER is potted in material
> having this property, then heat would not be a factor.
Actually, the tiles on the shuttle merely *conduct* heat very, very
slowly.
Actually, it'd be *worse*. The solid state laser will be *ruined* if
the temp goes too high. So the heat *has* to be *made* to move elsewhere.
> I would submit that it is human nature to frame one's concept of the
> universe with one's own experience. It is quite natural to assume that
> something can't be done because it's never been done before. Many
> discoveries and inventions occur because the person(s) allowed themselves to
> step over the bounds of their own experience and examine a problem from a
> hitherto unseen angle.
But one has to *have* experience or information about a subject before
one has a chance of producing *workable* off the wall solutions.
If one *doesn't*, one is merely repeating *known to be unworkable*
"solutions" that the experienced folks *rightly* gave up on ages ago.
> Even on this list we have seen people taking tentative steps over the
> bounds. They briefly explored ways in which optical surfaces could be
> protected.
Sure.
> The assumption in these posts has been that a laser must be high powered to
> do damage. However, looking at the use of a laser from a different
> perspective reveals that the damage is caused by the heat generated at the
> target. It is entirely possible to hit the target with many nano bursts of
> low energy to get the same effect.
You are missing the point. For a given amount of energy deposited in
the target (and the intervening air), call it X, a specific amount of
energy will be deposited in the laser as waste heat (call that Y).
Firing a series of short pulses instead of one long pulse *won't* make
a difference in X & Y. If delivering one megajoule to the target leaves
1 kilojoule of heat in the laser (an efficiency of 99.9%!!) it makes no
difference whether the laser fired a single 1 megawatt pulse lasting 1
second, or 1000 1 terawatt pulses 1 nanosecond long.
In fact, the higher power levels in the nanosecond long terawatt pulses
are apt to result in *more* waste heat in the laser.
> Thus, a laser that uses a msec burst
> composed of pulses that are in the sub usec range would use half the power
> and get substantially the same effect (the pulses are so short that the
> subject doesn't cool between them).
Neither does the laser. Which is the point.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 00:48:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org>
Subject: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
What happens in canon to a ship that is already in jumpspace if ...
1.) ... external stores (ie. items attached to hull) are jettisoned?
2.) ... the jump drive is turned off?
3.) ... the flow of power (or fuel) to the jump engines is reduced?
4.) ... the jump volume of the ship is increased by inflating a
balloon inside a cargo mesh?
5.) ... an attached ship with its own jump drive tries to use it?
(BTW, could two attached jump ships synchronize their drives and
jump as one?)
- --
@==================================================@
| Dalton S. Spence, B.Sc. <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> |
| Home Page: http://www.hwcn.org/~ag775/home.html |
| Family Motto: Virtute Acquiritur Honos |
| "Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium." |
| Cleon I, First Emperor of the Third Imperium |
| You must meet Paul at Main Street and get the |
| tubular shoggoth. FNORD! |
@==================================================@
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:03:01 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
On 9 Feb 2001, at 0:48, Dalton Spence wrote:
> What happens in canon to a ship that is already in jumpspace if ...
> 1.) ... external stores (ie. items attached to hull) are jettisoned?
They spin out and hit the J-Field, maybe the ship goes boom, maybe the J-
Field destabilises and a) ship goes boom b) J-Field geometry changes and
part of the ship gets exposed to J-Space (this is bad for the section
exposed, but the ship may survive) c) nothing happens. Whatever happens,
the things jettisoned are lost.
> 2.) ... the jump drive is turned off?
Either a) the ship goes boom b) The J-Field collapses and the entire ship is
lost in J-Space (maybe to reappear centuries latter, great in-jump
adventure material here) or c) nothing happens
> 3.) ... the flow of power (or fuel) to the jump engines is reduced?
See 2)
> 4.) ... the jump volume of the ship is increased by inflating a
> balloon inside a cargo mesh?
The expanding volume strikes the J-Field, see 1)
> 5.) ... an attached ship with its own jump drive tries to use it?
> (BTW, could two attached jump ships synchronize their drives and
> jump as one?)
Both ships are lost (this is from Marc's JTAS jumpspace article).
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:12:38 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
In mail you write:
>>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
> "Why? I assume you are referring to EM "noise" (I just love that myth).
> I did a lot of research on this for my IW work. It turns out that the chance
> of accidentally stumbling across a technological civilisation's EM signiture
> is so small as to be almost nil."
>
> Well, you learn something new every day! Thanks!
> The fact the the 3I wouldn't be able to detect the colonies on the
> Island worlds makes both subsectors' non-conquest even more odd.
> Most of the replies have to my question argued that the Imperium
> wouldn't wanted to bear the cost of the military campaign necessary to
> conquer and hold the Islands. If the 3I had simply thought the subsectors'
> worlds were empty, they would have planned on sending colonists instead of
> cruisers. The cost of a scouting and colony mission would have been much
> less and thus have a better chance of being launched. So, why wasn't it?
Why bother? The worlds are isolated and expensive to reach. It's just
not worth the hassles.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:21:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: TL7 PCs with starships (was Re: Science Fiction)
In mail you write:
> On 6 Feb 2001, at 17:49, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> > But there are things I'd like to tweak IMTU, to give it what to *me
>> > and my group* is a better feel. Some things to add a bit of "awe and
>> > wonder" to the milieu that seems so impressive in my head. In trying
>> > to entice my group to play Traveller again I've faced comments that
>> > Traveller amounted to "TL7 characters/equipment with starships".[1]
>>
>> Alas, that *is* what we've got for rules. And for most of the stories
>> they were based on.
>
> Is that how you and others play? Do you add anything to give the
> milieu a boost to it's TL feel? (when in appropriately high TL areas.)
It's the way we did things way back when I still actively gamed.
> Are there post-1980 works of fiction or scientific
> developments that influence your TU?
Alas, *most* of these will lead to players asking "well if *that*
works, why can't we do *this*?" and the ref not having a good answer
because there *isn't* any rational reason why they can't.
I watched folks take things like "jump capacitors" and turn out ships
that were super weapons. I've *never* seen a bunch of RPGers who, given
half a chance would exploit any technology (or "magic item" :-) to the
absolute limit.
Which is why I prefer to do my best to think thru the implications
*before* introducing things. And why I prefer to stick to "real"
science as much as possible. You get fewer conflicting answers that way.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:32:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: 52 million ton hull!
In mail you write:
> Perhaps Six highports connected together, forming a torus with dirty great
> lumps on it? It'd look a bit like a crown, but with the spikes on top AND
> bottom. Given time, you could walk from one highport to another.
Assuming you can maintain an average speed of 4 mph, it'd take about 2
*years* to walk all the way around. So it'd take about 4 months to walk
between statiions. :-)
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 21:36:14 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: MIME (was Re: (no subject))
In mail you write:
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
> ------=_NextPart_000_002B_01C09116.AED05210
> Content-Type: text/plain;
> charset="iso-8859-1"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Would folks *please* turn off HTML when posting to the list. And even
more so when sending *me* email?
I'm running a plain text mail program *on purpose* so as to avoid
viruses and the like. *Attachments are fine, as I can manually decode
them. But HTML, especially HTML *only* messages, with no plain text
version, are enough of a pain to deal with that I'm going to just start
deleting them from my email unread.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 07:09:39 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
Alan Bradley writes:
>>From: "Peter Scarrott"
>>What is the first date for deep space refuelling after the Rule of Man
>>and Long Night. If there is no canonical data for deep space refuelling
>>could this then explain the failure of the 3rd Imperium to reach the
>>Islands?
Given that jumps to deep space is possible in the first place, the first use of
it was propably not very long after the Vilani invented jump drive. As for the
first use after the RoM, any starfaring pocket empire propably used it on
occasion all through the Long Night.
>IIRC, during the Julian War the Julian fleets crossed part of the Lesser
>Rift when they raided into the rear of the Imperial fleets.
>
>I would take it that the technique is known, but isn't usually viable for
>commercial purposes. For the Imperium, no trade = no interest. The
>Islands aren't anywhere they would _want_ to go.
Precisely. Deep space refuellig is _expensive_.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 07:16:42 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Islands -- bad example?
Ken Hagler writes:
>Here's a summary. I was the Neubayern player in that game. I know some of
>the other people from the game are on the list, so they can correct me if
>there's too much of a pro-Neubayern bias.
> Blow-up
> 5631 started with a bang‹the Serendip Belt made a genocidal attack
> against the Orpheides, a stone-age species native to the planet Orphee. Amid
> cries of outrage, all the other nations of the Cluster dispatched relief
> expeditions to save the Orpheides from extinction.
> The relief expeditions had only just arrived when a second Serendip Belt
> attack killed most of the surviving Orpheides, along with several of the
> relief ships‹including ships from their ally, New Colchis.
> After this, all the remaining great powers of the Cluster joined the
> Alliance and declared war on the Serendip Belt. The Belters responded by
> launching genocidal attacks at Neubayern and New Colchis that killed ten
> billion civilians, but cost the Serendip Belt their fleet. The annihilation
> of the Serendip Belt followed soon after.
I played Serendip Belt early in the game, but I want everybody to know that I
lost that role (in-game due to a massive coronary, meta-game due to a
misunderstanding between me and Steve Higginbotham who ran the game) long before
that happened. (Instead I got a polity of six worlds lying in the rift corewards
of the Islands Cluster and spent two years building it up and sending out scout
expeditions that hardly ever returned. And just as I was beginning to open a
dialog with one or two people in the cluster, they self-destructed... ;-(
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 01:25:52 -0500
From: Kenji Schwarz <schwarz@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: [FILK] a first and two lasts.
Came back again after all, but just long enough for this.
Presumably the first Trav tune to have Vilani lyrics, and my money
says the last, too.
Adios, y'all--
Near-c Rocks (with mad props to the Clash)
Near-c rocks 'n debates for the ego
And loopholes open in the dear old canon
Oh, please, help the TML get it
Now that GDW's dead and gone
Flaming posts from the digest list
The wank fests for the right answer
Near-c rocks are just hard sci-fi
I'm wearing out my delete key again
CHORUS:
Near-c rocks, kishbasaazu megesuppu
Kishmugshizu, kha du shekigun
Near-c rocks, kishbasaazu megesuppu
Kishmugshizu, kha du shekigun
Near-c rocks in this mature forum
The efficiency pros can't rest in peace
He takes the right side,
He thinks the wrong thing,
After they read more they'll agree.
List's got no readers, all turned to sleepers
The earnest keyboards are free of spew
Near-c rocks bite the big one
This listero's interest has run out again.
(CHORUS)
List traffic rings with "let's be adult"
Or do I hear the echo from last time this happened
With trenches full of experts,
Righteous posters, quoting messages to send back again
Near-c rocks must be dealt with
I'm reading posts from another list
Near-c rocks can't be avoided
I'm using my delete key tonight
Near-c flames for the Zhodani, Solomani, kha du shekigun
Near-c flames on the whole list, kha du shekigun
Kenji
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:48:21 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Islands - Bad example?
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Islands - Bad example?
...
> The Solomani Rim War had only been over for 80 years or so and the
>Imperium finds a cluster full of archaic Sollies smack dab between Ilelish
>and the Trojan Reach. The lack of jump drive technology among those worlds
>gives the Imperium a little time to plan, but they know that Serendip Belt
>will eventually reverse engineer the drive they helped repair. So, how best
>to use this situation for the Imperium's benefit?
Correction: CS _Eldorado_ goes "oops!" in 980 - the SRW is going to
break out in the next generation it seems. The Serendips test their
first FTL ship in 983; the 3FW ends in 986. The SRW goes hot in 990 :|
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 22:44:33 -0800
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: ***SNORE***
>SNURK! GRMPH.... oh, man. Bill, that's cruel! They're still at it
>and I was having
>this *wonderful* dream involving my favorite Vargr and a room full
>of nekkid Antarian
>slave girls!
>
>Some people have *no* compassion. >^P
>
> - Mark C.
Do I want to know what Fearless Cap'n Vouf was doing with those slave
girls? (Getting them to rub his tummy would be my guess... lookit his leg
twitch!)
- --------------
Kelly St.Clair "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org Right here in fair Verona
With a capital T that rhymes with D
That stands for Duel..."
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 00:01:33 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Gun Control
> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 00:49:13 EST
> From: GaryBartz@aol.com
> Subject:
>
> No...not in real life.
> In the classic 3I setting why was gun control linked to law level?
It's a shorthand description based on a scale that's easily grasped.
at law level 1 you can get away with almost anything. At law level
A you can get away with almost nothing. The Worldbuilders Handbook
split law level up into distinct areas and kept the UWP LL as
the overall average.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 00:38:34 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: GT Cargo question
> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 10:02:00 -0600
> From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> Subject: Re: GT Cargo question
>
> Michael McKeown wrote:
> >
> > Ok...my newbie "ness" will really show in this question...
> >
> > I noticed that the GT Scout ship has 12 cargo spaces...From reading
through
> > the books and GT:FT...this is about 12 tons of cargo space...but the CT
> > scout ship has 3 tons of space...Is the differnce because GT uses Liquid
> > Hydrogen as the measure? It appeared to me that the conversion wasnt a
> > direction conversion of the ship because the GT version of the Type S
has 4x
> > the cargo space...
>
> All versions of Traveller have used the dton as a measure of volume.
> IIRC, MT used 13.5 m^3 as the definition of one dton, while T4 rounded
> this to 14 m^3. (I don't know about TNE, and I don't recall CT
> addressing the subject.)
CT suplement 7 gives ~14 cubic meters (and notes that 2 grid squares of 1.5
meters across
with a ceiling height of 3m = 13.5 m^3.)
>
> Bear in mind that the Book 2 Type S required 20 dtons of power plant
> fuel, while a similar ship designed under High Guard would require 2
> dtons of power plant fuel. Apparently Book 2 power plants are far less
> efficient than milspec HG power plants.
And that same Power Plant A installed in a Free Trader requires 10 tons
of fuel. (Try explaining that Mr. Science)
>
> Similarly, the T4 version, needing only .7 dtons of power plant fuel,
> has 12.9 dtons of cargo space.
>
> Bottom line: Changes in the technical architecture between the various
> Traveller rulesets have had a major impact on design parameters.
For Sure. Note that with HG you can build a scout (J2,G2) with 60%
fuel capacity. It's cramped but do-able.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 01:12:25 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
> Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 17:33:57 -0000
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [TML] Exported Video (was: Government Code questions)
>
> >From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> "A Baywatch-type show might be exported, if the actors were
> recognizable accross several worlds..."
>
> Do you think the Zhodani hit "Law & Order: Tavrchedl' Unit" will do
> well in the Imperial market? I'm trying to put together SuSAG's quarterly
> media buys....
"We know you will soon want to think about commiting a crime. Just give
yourself
up now and we can get on with your re-education."
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 01:24:40 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: re: Theory of Evolution
> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 09:58:04 -0800 (PST)
> From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
> Subject: re: Theory of Evolution
>
> >From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
>
> >ObTrav: Larry Niven wrote a story which (IMHO) supposes
> >that intelligence was no longer a required or beneficial survival trait
> >in humanity. So humans started regressing.
>
> Intelligence and education may actually be negative survival traits. It
> appears cross-culturally that whenever a community's level of education
> increases, its birth rate drops. Or, as an ex-girlfriend once exclaimed,
> "by not having children you're just helping the intelligentsia breed
> itself out of existence!" (or words to that effect).
From the same data points it could also be argued that when a community's
birth rate drops it's level of education increases. The mechanism is fairly
obvious the fewer children a community of a given size has the greater the
resources (educational and otherwise) that can be focused on each child.
And looking for individual survival traits in a species whose greatest
survival trait is co-operative action is probably counter-productive.
"If I appear to be able to see farther than other men it is only because
I am standing on the heads of giants." I. Newton.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 01:43:03 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
> Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 10:53:15 -0800 (PST)
> From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
>
> >From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
>
> >Hey, it is not the size, but skill. B-P
>
> All the small guys say that. I'm a little worried about mine, however.
> It's so big that when it fills with blood I get a little light-headed like
> I might faint. I think I need to eat more.
Hah I have to get a full pint transfusion before I can even *think*
about gettin' it up.
And since I'm now reminded of it.... Drew Carey put out a book
a couple of years ago called "Dirty Jokes and Beer" in it he has
a chapter of big dick jokes. My personal favorite:
"My dick's so big it has it's own agent."
Just had to share.
David Shayne
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3623
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3624
Date: | 2/9/01 3:08:11 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, February 9 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3624
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3618
Rio (Was: More landgrab info)
Re: Planetary navies
Re: The Russians invented it first?
Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
Re: FAR TRADER (aka GT Trade and Commerce)
Re: GT : Problems in Jumpspace
re: Islands - Bad example?
RE: Government Code questions
Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
Re: Boing
Re: Boing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:11:34 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> "Well, the few tens of thousand would be per planet, so you should
>multiply that by a couple of dozen..."
>
> I'm sorry but I see a far greater colonization effort than the one you
>propose.
That's up to you, of course, but have you ever tried working out the per-parsec
cost of emigration? If not, maybe doing so would change your mind.
>And with far fewer Vilani refugee worlds seeded through Deneb.
Five of them have been mentioned in an article on JTAS Online so far, and more
are certainly implied. YMMV as to the canonicity of JTAS Online articles, of
course.
>I think of the colonization "Behind the Claw" as one of those huge "movements
>of the people" that occur in history. As for any Vargr settlements in the
>area providing warm bodies, I believe they would have been run off, not
>assimilated.
You don't "run off" a couple of hundred millions sentients. You either kill them
off or work out a _modus vivendi_ with them.
>No material points to large Vargr populations in either the Marches or Deneb.
>So far two such worlds, Grant and Extolay, have been mentioned, again in JTAS
Online articles, and I certainly hope to introduce a few more (but only a few).
Jewell would be one of them.
>If the pre-existing Vargr worlds had provided settlers, we'd see their
>daughter colonies in the guise of many more Vargr majority worlds.
Not necessarily. With humans providing the starships, Vargr would come along
either as second-class citizens or, at best, as equal partners. Some Vargr
_might_ have formed all-Vargr settlements, but that doesn't mean that they
would've been allowed to keep such worlds for themselves.
> IMHO, the antebellum Imperium is a vibrant, thrusting society whose
>overexpansion nearly leads to it's destruction. They would and could make a
>huge effort as part of their interstellar "manifest destiny". How else can
>we explain all the simulteaneous Pacification Campaigns, recontact missions,
>colonizing efforts, wars, and such stuff? The 3I did an amazing amount of
>stuff in it's first 300 years.
The pacification Campaigns were against established societies and served a very
pragmatic purpose. I'm not sure what you mean about recontact missions. There
isn't all that much evidence of colonizing effort on the part of the Imperium
itself, and what wars are you referring to?
>Some worlds might have been excited by the prospect outfitting colonists.
>Others might have looked forward to being able to ship off their malcontents.
No doubt. But it still costs a lot to outfit colonists, especially pioneer
colonists.
> IMHO, the return of an interstellar society among the worlds of the
>Long Night kicked off a wide epidemic of the "itchy foot syndrome" and the
>Imperium had only one frontier to absorb this restlessness.
Not true. There were plenty of empty and near-empty worlds in all directions.
> About whether jump-3 or jump-4 ships could tackle the Rift and visit
>the Islands, I designed a jump-3 High guard squadron to move 1000dT per ship
>over a 3 jump/nine parsec route for the ct-starships list. The squadron
>included two deep space depots and the tankers to fuel them.
And how many ships were there?
>The cost was about one third of a single Island world's TCS budget.
TCS budgets are equivalent to about 5% of GWP. A third of that would be almost
2% of GWP. How many settlers would those ships move per year (remember to
include 1.5 dT of equipment (which, incidentally, has to be paid for too) per
settler in the amount moved.
>Pricey, yes, but a drop in the bucket for the Imperium.
Óh, the _Imperium_ could no doubt afford it. And so could any high-population
member world. The question is, why would they spend all that money to get rid
of a tiny fraction of a percent of their population?
> I think the Imperium could have reached the Islands.
There's no argument that they _could_. There may also be good reasons why they
would've wanted to. But is there any reasons why they absultely couldn't not do
it? I don't think so.
>I also believe that there would have been military, economic, transportation,
>and communication reasons and benefits to annex or settle the Cluster.
Maybe there were. I'm not so sure as you, but it doesn't really matter. Because
the real question is whether there would be no reasons why the Imperium and its
member worlds would have higher priorities closer to home, things they wanted to
do even more than they wanted to settle the Islands cluster.
>The only "reason" I can come up with for this not happening is some over
>riding Imperial need for it not too, and not because it would be too hard
>or not worth it.
Whereas I'm going for the 'not worth it" explanation.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 00:15:35 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@home.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3618
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > Thank you very much. I'm now stuck with an image in my head of a
> > female Vargr running along a beach in slow mo ... snout open,
> > tongue lolling from side to side with the paces, and ... how many
> > bikini tops?!?!?!?!
>
> Three.
Loren that's not helping......
- --
Evyn
The theme of the whole thing is clear. We have to be careful with wisdom. We
have to make certain we're ready for it when it comes knocking on our door.
Knowledge isn't always a blessing;
sometimes, it's damnation.
Play Dirty: Let's All Go to the Movies!, by John Wick
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:14:45 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Rio (Was: More landgrab info)
William Lane writes:
>Ok First I definatly want to do Rio in the Chronor Sector so if someone
>could set me up for it i would really appreciate it.
>
>Second I am using CT rules for the creation of this world. I see some are
>using other sets of rules or something because I see classifications i ahve
>never seen
>
>Ex class C/III starport
>
>is there a Problem using just CT rules for the creation of this system?
Not as far as I am concerned, but _GT:First In_ does have some superb rules. I
find that using a mixture of _First In_ and _World Builders' Handbook_ produces
better results than using either by itself.
Using CT rules alone does have the problem that you sometimes get impossible
results (world size vs. atmosphere etc.).
>Also I would like a complete history of the Imperium...
Wouldn't we all.
>...and specifically the Spinward Marches.
>
>Where can i get this.
I'm working on it, but it won't be finished for a while yet ;-). Meanwhile I can
send you my file of canonical dates for the Spinward Marches. It's too long to
post here. Let me know if you want it.
However, I think it will be all right to post my file on Rio:
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
System: Rio
Subsector: Cronor
Sector: Spinward Marches - Classic Era
Coordinates: 0301 (A0301)
UWP: C686648-8
Starport: Routine
Size: Medium (10,000 km)
Atmosphere: Dense
Hydrographics: 62% water
Population: 2,000,000
Govt: Representative democracy
Law Level: High
Technology: Pre-Stellar
Bases: None
Trade Codes: Ag Ni Ri Tp
Travel Zone: Green
Planetoid Belts: 0
Gas Giants: 1
Allegiance: Non-aligned
Stars: M1 V M0 D
Rio is settled between 400 and 500 [TA:15]. It is part of the Imperium by
589, but becomes independent during 1FW and remains independent until
sometime between 1122 and 1202 where it becomes a Zhodani client state.
[SMC:14-15 & RS:36]
0301 Rio (Independent)
Starport: Class III
Diameter: 6,215 miles (10,000 km). Atmosphere: Dense oxygen-nitrogen.
Surface Water: 62%. Climate: Cold. Population: 1,100,000,000. Government:
Representative democracy. Control Rating: 4. TL: 8.
Rio was first colonized by humans during the Rule Of Man. The landing went
badly ,and left the settlers with no way off-world. It took hundreds of years
for the settlers to regain past knowledge until they were contacted by the
Zhodani and the Imperials. The government of Rio has kept the planet neutral
for the past 530 years, and allows both Imperial and Zhodani vessels to use
its starport as long as all starship weapons remain covered.
1105: C686648-8/?
1107: -"-
1110: C686648-8/2
1117: -"-
1202: B686648-A/6; Interface station
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...and my tentative history of Chronor subsector to 55 (Note that this is not
canonical; it is, however, compatible with the canon I know of):
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Around -300,000 the Ancients visited several of the worlds in Chronor Subsec-
tor and left their traces on at least two of them. A group of Droyne was left
on A0103 (Errere/Ezhfrepl) and lost their ability to caste after the Final
War. Their descendants survive as Chirpers, though not known by that name. One
or more Ancient sites lie hidden on A0307 (Atsa/Brefie) and won't be found
until after 1117.
Siru Zirka scouts propably never reached this far; if they did, the records
have been lost.
Around -2500 the Zhodani established a small research outpost on Idrianzh
(0202). The outpost was maintained more or less continuously and other
outposts were kept, on and off, on several other worlds until around -1000,
but no permanent settlements ever took root.
Between -1370 and -1270 the Darrians of Daryen (0627) explored most of the
space for more than 20 parsecs around them, almost certainly including some of
Cronor Subsector, but they just missed encountering the Zhodani. After that
exploration was limited to worlds closer to home. A renewed spurt of explora-
tions begun around -930 was cut short by the MAGHIZ before it reached the
Zhodani.
During the 11th Century PI Chronor Subsector was the site of a grand Zhodani
colonization project involving numerous T-prime and T-norm planets in Chronor
and the surrounding subsectors during which a number of indigenous species
were transplanted between the various planets. A policy change caused the
abandonment of the entire project around -1000. Since then some mining
ventures have occasionally been attempted, but they have usually failed. The
only Zhodani presense in the subsector in the Year 55 is a small mining outfit
on Chronor.
In 50, following an incredible series of no less than 4 misjump, Morton Stout,
an independent Imperial trader, stumbled across a Zhodani mining outpost on
Chronor. He kept the discovery secret and tried to raise money for a trade
expedition to this fantastic new market, but failed because he couldn't
convince potential investors of his not very belivable story. It would be
years before he was vindicated and recieved a spot in the history books (as
well as in the Guiness Book of Galactic Records for Most Consecutive Misjumps
Survived).
In 52 the Imperial Scout Cruiser VASCO DA GAMA sent to explored the 1st
Qadrant found the Zhodani at Chronor. They aborted their original mission,
went to Prtzl, the nearest sizable Zhodani planet, in the Massina Subsector,
spent over a year there, and returned to Deneb in 54.
In late 55 a second expedition returned to the Marches to complete the survey.
VITUS BERING and JOSEPH BANKS took a diplomatic mission to Prtzl and
afterwards surveyed the rest of the 1st Qadrant.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As you will see if you look at my notes, there are several canon conflicts
concerning Rio. According to a line in _Darrians_ in -1513 the only human
populations in the Spinward Marches was on Darrian, Vanejen, Algine and "a few
Zhodani worlds". So when BtC says that Rio was settled during the Rule of Man,
we get a problem, unless we assume that it is one of those Zhodani worlds at the
time.
Next there is the star class. If Rio is settled during the RoM, when most of the
worlds in the Marches are empty, we must assume that it was selected out of a
number of possible worlds. Thus it should not only be a pretty nice world, but
one of the nicest worlds in its stellar neighborhood. (Unless you prefer to
assume that the settlers had no choice because their jump drive was on the
fritz, and that one has been used so often it has green fuzz growing all over
it). It has the potential to be a Terran-prime world, but only if it is in the
life zone and isn't tide-locked. My suggestion would be to change the primary to
a K1 V instead of an M1 V. In fact, if you're using CT rules only, you _have_ to
change the star class, because by CT rules M1 class stars don't have a suitable
orbit for a world with a breathable atmosphere.
Finally, there is the size of the population. CT canon has it as 2 million while
BtC has it as 1.1 billion. Now, it's no secret that I consider BtC badly broken,
but for once I'm inclined to go with what it says over previous canon. If Rio
has been settled for 3,000 years, 2 million inhabitants is on the low side, IMO.
Not to mention that if Rio is neutral, then either it is capable of defending
itself, or it has some "Big Brother" that protects it. Neither of these points
are irrefutable; life on Rio could be unusually hard and diplomatic pressure by
the Imperium _might_ have kept the Zhodani at bay (although it hasn't protected
several other worlds that we know of). But the total lack of correlation between
habitability and population is one of the things that bugs me about CT world
generation, so I'd welcome a chance to up the population of a Terran-prime
world. YMMV.
Anyway, here is a suggestion for a few entries to Rio's chronology:
Settled some time between -2300 and -1700 by a group of Vilani [or other
dissidents] fleeing the Rule of Man. Lost most technology during the landing and
spent several centuries in barbary.
Contacted by the Zhodani some time before -1513. The Zhodani set up a small
outpost (scientific, trade, mining, what?). They interacted with the locals, but
didn't interfere much with them (Maybe the locals were nomadic or just spread
out all over the world?).
From -1100 to -1000 the Zhodani did a lot of preparations for settling the area.
This would include missions to Rio, but they did not have the manpower to
assimilate the locals (They may have given them some bad memories, though ;-).
Around -1000 the Zhodani abandoned their grand scheme and left Rio alone again
(Maybe there was a second technological regression after they went away?).
Between 400 and 500 Imperials came to Rio and settled there. Rio joins the
Imperium between 500 and 589, but becomes independent again during the 1st
Frontier War and remains independent from then on.
Let me know what you think.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:20:45 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Planetary navies
Ben Aaronovitch writes:
>Is there a consensus on the size of planetary navies with regard to their UWP?
No. The tables in "Fifth Frontier War" and elsewhere produce _very_
understrength navies for high-population worlds while _TCS_ and _Striker_
rules produce huge budgets. Canonical Imperial navy figures from _Rebellion
Sourcebook_ indicates budgets smaller than TCS/Striker implies, but still a lot
more than FFW implies.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:26:08 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: The Russians invented it first?
Daniel Phelps writes:
>The neat thing is that it [ribbon bridge] uses no technology that wasn't
>available in WWII...
So does that make it TL 5 or TL 6? ;-)
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 04:00:27 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
Hello Folks,
Here is an added riddle to the question <grin>.
How many people remember the wargame (boardgame) Imperium? If I recall
correctly, it supposedly was intended to simulate the interstellar wars
back when Jump 1 and Jump 2 were the fastest ships on the block. They had
fuel tanker counters that permitted a ship to refuel at stars that didn't
have any fuel sources. Would that not constitute the first known deep
space refueling?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 04:08:06 -0500
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
Fellow Travellers,
I have been enjoying the discussion of large starports, and just wanted to
throw my .02 in on the subject.
The primary role of the orbital facility IMTU is not habitation, but
commerce, as I see it. I have designed a number of space habitats, but
generally they are built into asteroids, because I think it's ridiculous to
assume that the amount of labor and material needed to build something as
massive as a 52 million dTon station is cost-effectively available. IMTU,
the Type A starport, or orbital facility, is generally a series of small
modular structures like docking nodes, habitation modules, orbital
warehouses, factories, repair latticeworks, solar collectors, microwave
power transmitters, mooring and pressure-dock facilities, provisioning
depots and the like. The various facilities that comprise it are in several
different orbits, from geosync on down, and perhaps in lagrange and/or
trojan points. The starport isn't a single facility, but lots of smaller
facilities with crews that rotate Up and then back to the surface. I don't
design my starports like a Ports'o Call in space because I don't think
merchants would want to set up shop in a tin can, and I don't think people
would want to permanently reside Up. The promenade is best left on (or
under) the surface of the planet, at the downport. Defense weaponry is not
really a priority; that's why God invented asteroid-hulled system monitors.
Besides, if I'm hell-bent on capturing a world, destroying the
infrastructure needed to profitably maintain it would be kinda dumb. Of
course, if I am there to screw you over by wrecking that infrastructure,
then it's going to take some work to track all of the pieces down and whack
them. I actually prefer to put a lot more work into the downport, unless
there's a reason not to. Anyway, I just wanted to stir the pot a little.
Loving the fact that I live in a town called Star City (no, really!)
Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 21:13:56 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER (aka GT Trade and Commerce)
>From: hal@buffnet.net
>Subject: Re: FAR TRADER (and FT Economics)
>
>Hello Folks,
> I guess rather than put things in Traveller terms <grin>, I should be
>flat out saying what I mean.
<good stuff snipped>
I'll start this out with a phrase from my favorite historian, Fernand Braudel ... 'Either the wily Venetians
were deliberatly losing money on every cargo they insured, or our calculations are wrong'.
>
>Put another way:
>
>Jump 1 ships should be the baseline cost.
>
>Jump 2 ships should charge a set percentage more than the Jump 1 ships, or
>they should charge the same amount, but get more of the Jump 1's business.
>This means that where the jump 2 ship might have 90% of its cargo hold
>full, the Jump 1 ship may have only 50% of its cargo hold full.
>
> Lets examine this aspect from a different perspective, that of the
>shipper. If I hire the services of a Jump 1 ship to transship my cargo
>say, 4 parsecs - I wind up paying (based on $700 per parsec cost) $2,800.
>The Jump 2 shipping agency will only charge me $2,600 (assuming a base cost
>of say, $650 per parsec). Not only that, but they get the shipment there
>some two jumps sooner. I could *wait* two weeks and still pay less, and
>still have my cargo arrive at the same time as a more costly operative!
>
>This goes contrary to what a capitalism driven economy will tolerate (at
>least in my limited experience!).
>
It will tolerate it, but not for very long.
What will happen is the price of the capital embodied in the jump-1 ships will fall, until they can
achieve and acceptable rate of return. It doesnt matter if they 'go bankrupt' - regardless of who owns
them, they will still do their tacky 1 parsec jumps in order to earn what revenue they can.
Of course, no-one will build any new jump-1 ships.
>I think the best way overall, to fix the Traveller problems with pricing
>and economics is to do the following:
>
>Treat Jump capabilities as being TL aspects (much like they were in CT).
>Any Jump drive that is in operation for more than 2 TL's past its
>introduction are treated as being 2 TL's.
>
>Since I don't have all my traveller reference books available, this is not
>going to be accurate, but perhaps it will give the gist of what I am trying
>to say:
>
>Early TL 9 Jump 1
>Late TL 9 Jump 2
>Early TL 10 Jump 3
>Late TL 10 Jump 4
> TL 11 Jump 5
> TL 12 Jump 6
>
>At 1 tech level after introduction, the cost of the drives are halved. At
>2 tech levels after introduction, the jump drives are 1/4 price. Since
>GURPS TRAVELLER assumes a Mature TL10 Interstellar community, I would
>suspect that Jump 3 and Jump 4 drives are to be considered as being normal
>priced drives, while Jump 1 and 2 drives are considered to be 1/2 priced.
>Perhaps Jumps 5 and 6 drives should either be 10x price or 2x price as
>rated against the TL10 society?
Ummm, this does work (and is kinda supported by a sidebar in GT:FT, that supports items falling in
price after their introduction). If you regard the 3I as being a GT10 society, then I would rule that jump-
1 drives get a 50% price discount, jump-2 drives get a 25% discount, jump-4 drives get a price
increase and so on. I'm pretty sure that you are right in the TL advancement for Gurps Trav (High
Guard stated that jump capbility went up with TL. CT was actually silent on the issue).
Jump-1 drives are still economic only for 'coasting' in-system (in jumpspace, no-one can bushwhack
you) and for those rare 1-parsec runs.
Jump-2 drives become even closer to jump-3 in economic viability.
Jump-4 and up are still only economic for specialist roles.
Of course, you also have to modify the 'sticker price' of all other components, and good in general,
according to these rules.
>
> All in all, I am willing to use the TRAVELLER economy rules relatively
>untouched, but in my heart, I know that the pricing structure for ship's
>incomes is not realitic when compared with how our capitalistic society of
>today.
Think of how many prop-driven C47s are still flying commercial cargo routes. We still have a lot of old
clunkers in the sea-lanes, and you can buy them for very economical prices. But there is less of a gap
between the capbility of a 40s freighter and a modern one, than that between a C47 and a 747.
>
>For those of you who think "what an anal retentive guy" <wink>...
>
> All of my interest in examining *any* role playing system's economics is
>based on the simple premise "If it works for the common working man, then
>it will work for the upper echelons of society". In other words, if the
>rules for incomes on farmers at a serf level work, they will work for the
>Knight or Barons of the land. Same thing is true for the Shippers of
>cargo. If the economics rules work for them, then it will work for the
>ship captains. If the economic rules for the shippers are broken, then the
>entire system needs to be re-evaluated and made to work, or deliberately
>handwaved into "Oh, there are mysterious forces that make this so. Magic
>works because. Traveller Economics work because. (no flames intended
>here, but a statement of facts).
>
Hey, you should have seen the convolutions some people went into to justify a flat Cr1000 per jump
freight rate :) Seriously, welcome to the Economic Gearheads fraternity :)
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 21:16:44 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: GT : Problems in Jumpspace
>From: Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org>
>Subject: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
>
>What happens in canon to a ship that is already in jumpspace if ...
>
>1.) ... external stores (ie. items attached to hull) are jettisoned?
>
Misjump.
>2.) ... the jump drive is turned off?
Catastophic misjump.
>
>3.) ... the flow of power (or fuel) to the jump engines is reduced?
Either a misjump or a catastophic misjump.
>
>4.) ... the jump volume of the ship is increased by inflating a
> balloon inside a cargo mesh?
>
Catastrophic misjump/
>5.) ... an attached ship with its own jump drive tries to use it?
> (BTW, could two attached jump ships synchronize their drives and
> jump as one?)
>
Nobody knows. Neither ship has ever come back.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:24:11 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: Islands - Bad example?
>From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
"Correction: CS _Eldorado_ goes "oops!" in 980 - the SRW is going to
break out in the next generation it seems. The Serendips test their
first FTL ship in 983; the 3FW ends in 986. The SRW goes hot in 990 :|"
Sorry. my mistake. I was thinking 4th instead of 3rd Frontier War, but
my reasoning still fits. In fact it makes an IISS mission rather than a
military one much more likely.
Canon speaks about a slow build up of tensions in the Rim. The
Imperium dissolves the Sollie Sphere in 950 and begin reabsorbing worlds
that have petitioned it to do so. Both side are undoubtedly moving assets
into the region, the Imperium wouldn't want a squadron or two hieing it off
ot the Islands, not with a hot war about to break out along the Rim and
another just over in the Marches.
CS Eldorado's return with news of a cluster full of archaic Sollies
comes only a few years before the Rim melts down. I can see a harried naval
planning staff on Capital telling the IISS in effect that the military has
it's hands full and asking the Scouts to do something to keep the lid on.
The IISS specialists would have forecast Serendip's development of the
jump drive and then using it for imperial ambitions. As a military mission
to annex the area and forestall the creation of a Sollie empire poised off
Ilelish can't be mounted, the IISS takes out their "divided and weaken"
handbooks and does some figuring. Voila, we get the "Jump Drive
Distribution and Emperor Gavin's Traveling Magical Technology Show".
Over the next few decades, the IISS puts in appearances to ensure that
the local temperatures stay hot. "Bumbling" diplomats blithely repeat
information on world that another world had told them in confidence.
Hearty, drunken, back slapping Imperial military types regale audiences of
junior officers with glorious tales of fighting the Zho and Swordies.
Imperial credits are strewn about; causing sporadic commodity shortages,
buying airtime for extremists groups, bribing politicians and turncoats.
The PsyOps possibilities are endless.
By 1105, the Imperium might look at the cluster with pride for their
handiwork, rather than hand shakes and hand wringing.
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:56:55 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Government Code questions
>
>Also...what about the 'Bollywood' concept? India (a high pop
>place if ever I saw
>one) has a bigger move industry than America...but most of its
>product is for
>local release cos the 'western' world is under the sway of
>'Hollywood' ...
>
Hmm, would subtitled Zhodani movies be popular with the arthouse crowd?
Jodiewood? :)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 03:02:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
If you really want to get technical, please note that the U.S. had to
stage fuel caches to make the jump to Barnard.
- --- hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Hello Folks,
> Here is an added riddle to the question <grin>.
>
> How many people remember the wargame (boardgame) Imperium? If I
> recall
> correctly, it supposedly was intended to simulate the interstellar
> wars
> back when Jump 1 and Jump 2 were the fastest ships on the block.
> They had
> fuel tanker counters that permitted a ship to refuel at stars that
> didn't
> have any fuel sources. Would that not constitute the first known
> deep
> space refueling?
>
> Hal
=====
Gerry Harris
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:35:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Boing
In mail you write:
> At 09:04 AM 2/8/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>>I think you'll have to fight Cisco for it. You wouldn't be able to BUILD
>>anything post-70's without network infrastructure ;)
>>
>>"We are Cisco of Borg. You will be assimilated. We will add your distinct
>>functionality to our own."
>
> Hmmm.. that makes eight people I know who work at cisco, and you are the
> only one who isn't named Dave. There are so many Dave's in local fandom
> that they now great each other in this way:
>
> "You are Dave."
>
> "You are Dave."
>
> "Together, we are.. DAVE."
I used to share a house with two Daves (and a couple other people).
since they tended to keep very different hours, our standard response
to questions about them was:
"Dave? Dave's not here man..."
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 23:54:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Boing
In mail you write:
>>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
>>*ahem* I invite you to look ionto the Twin Giants, PepsiCo
>>and Coca-Cola. I have considered an illuminati game where everything that
>
>>has happened since 1950 has been caused by these two rivals.
>>
>>For ex: In the 1950s, Coke had almost complete domination of the Cuban
>>market (fact). So Pepsi arranges Castro's little movement.
>>But Coke counterstrikes by making sure that the American government
>>isolates Cuba!
>
> That would explain why, when I was in the Soviet Union many years ago,
> Pepsi was readily available (with the name written in Cyrillic
> characters), but not Coke.
Since the Soviets wouldn't allow Pepsi to take their profits out as
rubles, Pepsi had to *buy* something and ship that out.
As I recall, the eventual deal was that PepsiCo got one liter of
Stolichoyna vodka for every liter of Pepsi sold in the USSR.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3624
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3625
Date: | 2/9/01 7:20:49 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Friday, February 9 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3625
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: [TML] Anti-RPG
Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
RE: Anti-RPG
RE: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Re: Islands
Re: Islands - Bad example?
Re: ***SNORE***
Coke v. Pepsi
Re: Islands
Re: Islands subsectors
[OT] Facts & Theories
RE: Islands
Re: Penis Size Wars (and Ravioli Rail-Gun Question)
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
RE: Islands
Re: Rio (Was: More landgrab info)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 11:15:18 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
"Five of them have been mentioned in an article on JTAS Online so far,
and more are certainly implied. YMMV as to the canonicity of JTAS Online
articles, ofcourse."
Not being familiar with JTAS Online (I've been there but haven't
subscribed) I wonder about it's "canonicity". Is there a Miller recognized
line editor? Even with one, there could still be some whoppers created.
Look at DGPs jump fuel ruling in MT for intance.
"You don't "run off" a couple of hundred millions sentients. You either
kill them off or work out a _modus vivendi_ with them."
Or blockade them to prevent off world travel. Do you really think the
Imperium would tacitly allow further colonization in Deneb or the Marches by
the same species it's fighting in the Corridor?
"No material points to large Vargr populations in either the Marches or
Deneb. So far two such worlds, Grant and Extolay, have been mentioned,
again in JTAS Online articles, and I certainly hope to introduce a few more
(but only a few). Jewell would be one of them."
Jewell? Jewell? JEWELL!??! The steadfastly loyal fortress world of
five Frontier Wars? The Third Imperium's Stalingrad, Alamo, and Rorke's
Drift all rolled in to one? The world that's been besieged, invaded,
bombed, and cratered while remaining unswervingly loyal to the Emperor and
Imperium? Jewell inhabited by a Vargr majority? Pull my other leg, it
barks.
I think I know have a new winner for the "contradiction in terms"
definitions contest. "Loyal Vargr" sure beats "jumbo shrimp".
My question above about the "canonicity" of JTAS Online has been
answered. 8^)
"There isn't all that much evidence of colonizing effort on the part of the
Imperium itself, and what wars are you referring to?"
The Corridor campaign, the Julian Wars, the war agaist the Aslan that
culminated in the Peace of Ftahalr. the Ilelish Rebellion, the Chanestin
Kingdom (they actually bombed the Imperial Palace. There also was still
enough of a threat to force Martin I 166-195 to fortify his palace.)
"And how many ships were there?"
Four frieghter each handling slightly more than 1000dT. I figured with
three operating at any given time and the fourth done for simple maintenance
and crew liberty. That would put one at each trans-rift terminus world 3
out of four weeks. Figuring 2dTs for and colonist and his supplies it's 500
every 4 week period, or 6500. Let's call it 6000, freeing up some
additional cargo space for incidentals. So we could move your 10K colonist
target with only four ships in 20 months.
"Óh, the _Imperium_ could no doubt afford it. And so could any
high-population member world. The question is, why would they spend all that
money to get rid of a tiny fraction of a percent of their population?"
Isn't there a canon description of a Marches system being developed for
colonization, but the project is running behind due to the 5th Frontier War
and the first group of colonists in low berths are due soon "from the Core"?
Why should those corpsicles come all the way out to Marches if there are
higher priorities and still empty spaces closer to home?
Because sustained, substantial Imperial emigration into Deneb, the
Marches, and the Trojna Reach is a long standing Imperial policy. It
re-enforces the Imperial claim to those areas over the claims of the other
species and branches of humaniti already there.
Why do the territorial acquisistions anglo Kiwis stand, despite the
fact that the Maoris had been the since circa 900AD? Because the UK shipped
in more colonists than there were Maori, that's why.
"Whereas I'm going for the 'not worth it" explanation."
So am I. I'm saying the benefits of keeping the Islands as a
collection of squabbling mini-powers far outweighed the benefits of
annexation or the creation of a client state at the time that decision was
made; i.e. after the Eldarodo's return and a few years prior to the Rim War.
Why some high pop worlds in Ilelish or Daibei didn't see the Ilands as
an attractive colonization project far earlier, rather than shipping their
cargoes of corpsicles "Behind the Claw" via Vland is the mystery.
Hope to read your reply soon, 'cause your stuff is not only good, it's
GREAT! :)
Larsen (imitating Tony T. Tiger and jabbing a forefinger skyward)
>
>
>Hans
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 11:42:07 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: [TML] Anti-RPG
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
>Repeat after me "On the TML there is no such thing as an off-topic post." :)
Possibly...
Gearheads may be fascinated by exactly how lasers work, or don't
work... People wanting to create believable opponents for their PCs
may prefer to read about strange belief systems and the types of
argument their followers use. Both, IMO, are equally on-topic - or
off-topic, depending on your point of view.
...and it's surely the ultimate irony for Mr Chick and his like to
find their works being used as resources for a role-playing game...
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 11:47:40 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
"If you really want to get technical, please note that the U.S. had to
stage fuel caches to make the jump to Barnard."
- --- hal@buffnet.net wrote:
"Hello Folks,
Here is an added riddle to the question <grin>.
How many people remember the wargame (boardgame) Imperium? If I
recall correctly, it supposedly was intended to simulate the interstellar
wars back when Jump 1 and Jump 2 were the fastest ships on the block.
They had fuel tanker counters that permitted a ship to refuel at stars that
didn't have any fuel sources. Would that not constitute the first known
deep space refueling?"
IMHO deep space refueling is "doable" but not widespread because
ecenomic factors, the pinpoint jump navigation required, most ship's being
built without the capability in mind, and sheer social inertia coupled with
a set of mental blinders. The Imperials only think to do it when all other
possibilities are exhausted.
And the above is from a fellow who thinks the 3I would have used one or
two deep space fuel caches to reach the Islands well before the actual
contact date!
Canon is littered with examples of deep space refueling. In the
Traveller Adventure, Arekut, the tukera subsidary, operates a busy deep
space fuel depot in the sleepy Aramis subsector, even goiing as far as
staffing it. The PCs are hired by Oberlindes to capture the depot and then
capture every ship that visits it for a set period of time.
Now if a small megacorp subsidary can find the means to build, staff,
and supply a deep space fuel depot and everyday merchant ships can jump so
precisely that maneuvering towards it takes so little time, then why are
people so dead set against the idea? Beats me.
It might be our "real world" experiences coming to the fore. We see
military ships and aircraft refueling while under way and in flight, but
container ships and 747 cargo craft don't. FedEx, UPS, and Lykes Lines
don't refuel that way, so non-military types in Traveller shouldn't. Guess
we're wearing blinders too.
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 01:03:42 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> I've always taken a short description of the proper spheres of science and
> religion to be
>
> "Science asks what the universe is. Religion asks why."
Nope.
Philosophy asks why.
Religion tells you to stop asking awkward questions and just have faith.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 01:06:44 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Bill Rutherford wrote :
> Uhhh... If we're going to ban near-C rocks and religion, could we
> *possibly* ban really, really bad poetry, too?
Only if _you're_ willing to tell the Vogons
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 07:14:45 -0500
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Islands
>Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:24:11 -0000
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: re: Islands - Bad example?
> CS Eldorado's return with news of a cluster full of archaic Sollies
>comes only a few years before the Rim melts down. I can see a harried naval
>planning staff on Capital telling the IISS in effect that the military has
>it's hands full and asking the Scouts to do something to keep the lid on.
> The IISS specialists would have forecast Serendip's development of the
>jump drive and then using it for imperial ambitions. As a military mission
>to annex the area and forestall the creation of a Sollie empire poised off
>Ilelish can't be mounted, the IISS takes out their "divided and weaken"
>handbooks and does some figuring. Voila, we get the "Jump Drive
>Distribution and Emperor Gavin's Traveling Magical Technology Show".
Nope, still doesn't fit:
"With the end of the war, the Imperial Interstellar Scout Service followed
up on the Navy's report and dispatched a survey team to establish
relations. Upon their arrival, they found that the Serendips had already
duplicated the jump drives they had seen (and helped repair) and were
themselves in the process of establishing control over the entire cluster.
The Survey team carefully distributed jump drive technology to seven other
systems and helped reestablish [sic] a balance of power within the region."
Adv. 5, p. 41.
"5501 Imperial Strike Cruiser Eldorado misjumps into Clusters...
"5534 Imperial Scout Service mission spreads jump technology"
Ibid., p. 43.
"The IISS mission commander suffered from some sort of messiah complex and,
seeking to atone for this inadvertant sin, began distributing jump
technology to the other major powers, thoughtfully ensuring that they could
all make interstellar war on an even footing."
The Regency Sourcebook, p. 33.
It is reasonably clear from context that the Imperium did not expect to
find the Islanders in possession of jump drive technology. Note that the
follow-up mission was more than 30 years in coming, and was not sent until
well after the end of the Solomani Rim War (1013 Imperial).
The actions of the IISS mission commander make sense in context if you note
that the expedition was mounted by the Imperial Grand Survey ("the Survey
team"), not the Contact and Liaison Branch of the Exploration Office. Best
guess is that some Imperial bureaucrat noted that the previously unknown
colonies were located in the "fully inintegrated" Reft Sector, and
dispatched a mapping expedition to correct the lapse in First Survey data.
The IGS mission commander, inexperienced in first contact protocols, took
the situation s/he found as license for heroic measures, with what results
we are all familiar.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 12:23:33 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands - Bad example?
>From: Ken Hagler <khagler@orange-road.com>
>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
>To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
>Subject: Re: Islands - Bad example?
>Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 12:34:49 -0800
>
>on 2/8/2001 11:55 AM, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
> > Please, please, please, please, please! I wanna read it!
>
"Okay. :-)
"Here's a summary. I was the Neubayern player in that game. I know some of
the other people from the game are on the list, so they can correct me if
there's too much of a pro-Neubayern bias.'
Ken,
Thanks so much for taking the time to tpye all that up. It was a
fscinating read.
I ran dozens of TCS campaigns in the mid-80's (we were at sea and had
oodles of time on our hands). Our games usually played out like yours. The
1st alliances would occur in the Old Islands; mostly Sasnterre and
Amondiage, both francophones and too close to one another for any effective
defense. Neubayern, New Home, and the Alliance would duke it out for St. G
too. Surprisingly, most NH players took it's isolationist fervor to heart,
only attacking players or alliances that seemed to grow too powerful,
knocking them down, and then returning home.
None of the players I had during TCS tournaments were as bloodthirsty
as your. We never really got around to genocide...
Most of the New Island powers skirmished alot, but engaged in no real
fleet actions. They were too nervous about Esperanza, the 800lb gorilla.
Who ever put that world in the game, never PLAYTESTED the damn thing.
Using the results of many TCS tournies, I put together a background for
the RPG campaigns I ran later on. In it, Neubayern and Amondiage first
fight over St. G with NH and Sansterre staying out of it. When Neubayern
gets the upper hand, Sansterre sees it's window to the rest of the cluster
threatened and comes in.
After a bitter fight, all three systems agree to disagree and form a
League. Amondiage is exhausted, Neubayern is nervous about it's rear flank
via Topas, and Sansterre is frightened that another power could control it's
access to the rest of the cluster via St. G. All the other systems in the
subsector, with the exception of NH, are either coaxed into or told they are
now associate members of the League.
The League goes thru the usual growing pains (think of it as the EU
meets NATO) and embarks on a few projects to help foster a feeling of unity.
The first is the trans-rift fuel depots I've been flogging to the list.
the second is the tech upgrade of Colchis, hoping to make that world a full
member (the tech uplift is what coaxed Colchis in to joining). Another
project is the succor of Sturgoen's Law. League scientists work on ways to
defeat the plants there.
League foreign policy has it's hands full too. NH is now very
frightened of the League and is considering alliances in the New Islands.
The League wants to assuage their fears and, hopefully, coax NH into
joining. New Colchis and Joyuese form an alliance. New Colchis is angry at
Colchis' becoming an associate League member and is trying to sabotage the
tech uplift. Joyuese is unhappy it's interests around Topas and Berlichgen
are now opposed by the League (the League "inherited" Neubayern's interests
there).
The Alliance wants to include Serendip, but that world wants a promise
of assistance versus Esperanza, something the Alliance hopes to avoid. It
maintains cool, but cordial, relations with the 800lb goriall and wants to
keep them that way while they deal with the League.
So, the Islands have two nascent opposed "superpowers", two
increasingly nervous "great powers" that could jump either way, and one
800lb gorilla that's the riddle wrapped in a conundrum swallowed by an
enigma. Made for great cold war-ish RPG play.
Did I mention that the cluster is sort of "lacking" in easily found and
recoverable lanthanum deposits? (due to Ancients mining actvity, why else
were they there?) And all the powers are frantic to ensure it's steady
supply? And there's those hints of Imperial interference...
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 07:31:30 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: ***SNORE***
> >SNURK! GRMPH.... oh, man. Bill, that's cruel! They're still at it
> >and I was having
> >this *wonderful* dream involving my favorite Vargr and a room full
> >of nekkid Antarian
> >slave girls!
> >Some people have *no* compassion. >^P
> > - Mark C.
>Do I want to know what Fearless Cap'n Vouf was doing with those slave
>girls? (Getting them to rub his tummy would be my guess... lookit his leg
>twitch!)
Uhhh Kelly, that's not his leg....
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 07:48:02 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: Coke v. Pepsi
> >>*ahem* I invite you to look ionto the Twin Giants, PepsiCo
> >>and Coca-Cola. I have considered an illuminati game where everything
that
> >
> >>has happened since 1950 has been caused by these two rivals.
> >>
> >>For ex: In the 1950s, Coke had almost complete domination of the Cuban
> >>market (fact). So Pepsi arranges Castro's little movement.
> >>But Coke counterstrikes by making sure that the American government
> >>isolates Cuba!
> >
> > That would explain why, when I was in the Soviet Union many years ago,
> > Pepsi was readily available (with the name written in Cyrillic
> > characters), but not Coke.
>
> Since the Soviets wouldn't allow Pepsi to take their profits out as
> rubles, Pepsi had to *buy* something and ship that out.
>
> As I recall, the eventual deal was that PepsiCo got one liter of
> Stolichoyna vodka for every liter of Pepsi sold in the USSR.
>
Richard Nixon was an attorney for Pepsi. No coincidence that Coke was
introduced to the USSR once Jimmy Carter became president.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 12:58:33 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands
>From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
"Note that the follow-up mission was more than 30 years in coming, and
was not sent until well after the end of the Solomani Rim War (1013
Imperial)."
Okay, sorry, should have dug out TCS for the timeline. Mea culpa.
How long did it take Eldorado to effect repairs? I'm not saying 20 or
30 years, but they'd have to make the tools to make the tools to make the
repair parts. And I seriously doubt the Serendips were tootling aroud their
belt in craft conforming to 3I mil-specs either.
Is a 3I meter and gram exactly the same as a Serendip meter and gram?
Measurement and calibration could have been a nightmare. Was the Eldorado
there a year, or two, or five?
"The IGS mission commander, inexperienced in first contact protocols..."
Hmmm, the Survey office dispatches a squadron into the Rift to map out
a previously unknown and unheard cluster (which doesn't say much for the
state of 3I astronomy. They're using Longbow-like arrays to spy on the Zho,
even building them in the Vargr extants, but didn't know about 20+ systems 8
parsecs from Ilelish?). The office knows the cluster is inhabited because
the Navy has already made contact with one system, has heard tales of
others, and seen the sub-light craft used to move between them. So, the
IISS picks a commander inexperienced with first contact protocols.
Okay.
Ascribing machiavellian motivations to the Imperium works just as well
after the Rim War as before it. The Imperium is exhausted by the conflict.
They know 30 years ago a group of archaic Sollies saw that a jump drive was
possible. Knowing the history of the Interstellar Wars, they know that it's
only a matter of time before the natives copy it and start to use it. The
Imperium has been fortunate nothing has come to a boil in that quarter in
the last thirty years, but something has to be done now.
A PsyOp mission is dispatched under the COVER of a survey. If the
Serendips haven't achieved jump flight, maybe the knowledge can be
contained. The IISS finds a Serendip empire though, albeit one barely born.
Now, all the other inhabited Island systems know about jump drive too.
Maybe not enough to build one right off the bat, but they know it's possible
and that's half the battle.
The IISS commander carefully selects and seeds jump drive technology to
seven other systems. The Serendip empire is strangled by proxy in it's
cradle. Imperial hands are kept clean. Now, a potentially dangerous
cluster of archaic Sollies has been set at each others' throats and the lid
has been firmly clamped down on the whole situation, from the Imperium's
viewpoint.
As for the commander with the messiah complex? You know, the fellow
the Regency history books are so dismissive of, becasue the Regency is
currently spending oodles blood and treasure to clean up his mess? Well, he
was forced to resign, of course, and then dropped out of sight.
There was that matter of a secret ceremony of ennoblement at the Palace
a few years later though, and a world in the Lishun sector got a brand new
marquis to look after it's affairs right afterwards.
Larsen
"Anyone want to suggest a Machiavelli world book to SJG?"
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 08:09:00 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>>What is the first date for deep space refuelling after the Rule of Man and
>>Long Night. If there is no canonical data for deep space refuelling could
>>this then explain the failure of the 3rd Imperium to reach the Islands?
>
>IIRC, during the Julian War the Julian fleets crossed part of the Lesser
>Rift when they raided into the rear of the Imperial fleets.
Based on the maps at Anthony Jackson's website, there is an roundabout
Jump-5 route, and a Jump-6 route across the Lesser Rift. What was the tech
level of the Protectorate during the Julian War? It's just possible that
they could make the trip without deep space refuelling, though I'm assuming
not.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:01:27 -0000
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk>
Subject: [OT] Facts & Theories
> Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:39:03 +1100
> From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (LONG)
<snip>
> >Evolution is not a religion, but a tested (and proven) scientific
> >theory.
>
> <quibble>
> Scientific proof requires experimental repeatability. That's
> a little hard
> for historical events. Historical proof is a little different
> when it comes
> to "testing" and "proving" it, and the difference is an important one.
> </quibble>
>
> <rant>
> Pet peeve: if it's fact, why is it called a "theory"? It's
> taught as though
> it were fact.
> </rant>
That is because there are two aspects of Evolution (and, indeed, any
other scientific study). There is the 'fact' of the thing (i.e. what
empirically can be observed) and there is the 'theory' that explains the
facts. Theories are subject to refinement as more empirical data becomes
available, and can be replaced with new ones as flaws are discovered.
So the fact of evolution is that new species evolve from existing
species. The theory of evolution is the currently accepted explanation
for the mechanism for this change.
For creationism to be taught alongside evolution, as an alternative
explanation (ie Theory) then it would need to credibly explain how
species evolve. IIRC it doesn't. In fact it dismisses the concept
completely.
Someone else stated that like evolutionary theory, Einstein's Theory of
Relativity was 'unproven', because it was only a theory... again, the
Fact of relativity exists. It is capable of being (and has been)
measured. The theory predicted precisely the observed measurements, and
is therefore 'proved', especially as no reliable contrary data has been
observed in nearly a century of research. Now that doesn't necessarily
mean that the theory is complete, only that we cannot observe any
discrepancies.
For it's time, Newton's theory of Gravitation fitted the observable
data, but as the level of detail that we can observe increased it was
found to be incomplete. It was found that the theory of Quantum
Mechanics better explained details on the microscopic level, but at the
macroscopic level various factors of quantum mechanics cancel each other
out, leaving an equation corresponding to Newton's. Therefore Newton's
theorem was a subset of Quantum Mechanics, but until observation
revealed the discrepancies at the finest level it matched the data
available and was assumed to apply at all levels.
Similarly, the current theories of quantum mechanics, relativity and
evolution may well each be subsets of more complicated processes we are
as yet unable to detect. When we do detect these processes the theories
will be revised, but the existing theories are still valid, as they
reliably explain observed data in a repeatable, verifiable way.
So to reiterate, evolution is a fact and the current theory is the most
reliable explanation. Creationism disregards the data and handwaves it
away and thus has no basis for claiming equal 'airtime' with evolution
within a scientific curriculum. It is an act of faith to believe in
Creationism, and as such should be taught in Church, not school (or at
least, only in a comparative religions, or religious studies type class,
not in biology)
Matt
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:30:48 -0000
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Islands
That's what I liked about a backwater sector like Banners, there is
virtually no canon apart from a few names, so I can have basically a
completely free run while still being close enough (in this case to Aslan
and Solomani space plus various client states) to feel that I am still in
the same universe.
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:00:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: Penis Size Wars (and Ravioli Rail-Gun Question)
Howdy!
> david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
> >
> <<snip>>
> >
> > On another topic, John, you might know the answer to this: Howard Tayler
> > (Schlock Mercenary) would like to know who came up with the calcs for the
> > Raviolli Rail-Gun. Do you know?
>
> Well, I have an archival copy of the Ravioli Rail-Gun post. It includes
> the following e-mail addresses:
>
I forwarded this message to Howard Tayler (with the subject line intact).
He allowed as how the subject really got his attention. :)
yours,
Michael
- --
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 15:03:20 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
"Based on the maps at Anthony Jackson's website, there is an
roundabout Jump-5 route, and a Jump-6 route across the Lesser Rift. What was
the tech level of the Protectorate during the Julian War? It's just possible
that they could make the trip without deep space refuelling, though I'm
assuming not."
HG2 states that jump-5 is available at TL 14 and jump-6 is available at
TL 15. At the timne of the Julian War, roughly the 3I's 2nd century, the
Imperium wasn't at TL 15 yet, so, like you, I doubt the Julian's were
either.
So either the Julian's had TL 15 jump drives, but no other TL 15
devices, or they used <GASP> deep space refueling! And enough of it to move
entire fleets, plus troops. And all the supplies needed for the offensive
until they linked up with their own border. Just think of the tonnage
moving along those fuel caches...
Good thing no one on the TML told them it couldn't be done, otherwise
they would have lost the war! 8^)
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:10:17 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
> What happens in canon to a ship that is already in jumpspace if ...
I don't know that these are specifically dealt with in the rules. Here are my
private thoughts (YMMV):
> 1.) ... external stores (ie. items attached to hull) are jettisoned?
Whatever is jettisoned vanishes completely. You never find a trace of it.
> 2.) ... the jump drive is turned off?
Ditto for the ship and all who ride in her.
> 3.) ... the flow of power (or fuel) to the jump engines is reduced?
Ditto
> 4.) ... the jump volume of the ship is increased by inflating a
> balloon inside a cargo mesh?
Why? What possibly utility could this have? I'm inclined to say absolutely
nothing good or bad happens, unless I get annoyed, in which case I rule that
jumpspace is destroyed and FTL travel is impossible anywhere in the universe.
> 5.) ... an attached ship with its own jump drive tries to use it?
> (BTW, could two attached jump ships synchronize their drives and
> jump as one?)
These last two have been asked before on the list. Answers varied. Personally
I lean toward the both ships are destroyed hypothesis.
********
Frankly, as GM I get a little annoyed at players trying crackpot stunts like
this. "OK, what happens if we stretch a tightrope between two 747s in flight
and try to walk between them?" If they try it too often, they discover that
everyone concerned dies a horrible death.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 15:11:47 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Islands
>From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
"That's what I liked about a backwater sector like Banners, there is
virtually no canon apart from a few names, so I can have basically a
completely free run while still being close enough (in this case to Aslan
and Solomani space plus various client states) to feel that I am still in
the same universe."
Yes, drat it!
I set my campaigns in the Islands for the same reasons, until DGP saw
fit to publish their maps and change the canon. TCS said the Islands were
"...jump-6, or jump-3 with tanks..." distant from the Imperium. Just what a
bunch of fueding TL 13 worlds could handle. Then DGP's maps "adjusted" the
gap to 7 to 8 parsecs, thus blowing my entire campaign out of the water.
Drat, and double drat! Maybe's it time to move to Astron or Theta
Borealis. I should be glad I didn't choose Kuzu for a setting, the various
Traveller publishing entities have changed it's location nearly a dozen
times.
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 07:19:09 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Rio (Was: More landgrab info)
on 2/9/01 12:14 AM, Hans Rancke-Madsen at rancke@diku.dk wrote:
>
> I'm working on it, but it won't be finished for a while yet ;-). Meanwhile I
> can
> send you my file of canonical dates for the Spinward Marches. It's too long to
> post here. Let me know if you want it.
>
> However, I think it will be all right to post my file on Rio:
Hans, can you include me in this mailing. I'd like this data (with you
permission) for posting on http://www.spinwardmarches.com.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3625
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3626
Date: | 2/9/01 10:15:25 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Friday, February 9 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3626
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: PepsiCo
Re: JTAS Online
Re: JTAS Online
Re: JTAS Online
JTAS
RE: Theory of Evolution
Re: JTAS
Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
RE: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
RE: JTAS
Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
RE: [TML] !!Request!!
Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Bandwidth Jealosy )wasRE:JTAS)
Re: [OT] Facts & Theories
Re: ***SNORE***
Re: Government Code questions
Re: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions)
RE: Boing
Heplar, T-Plates, etc.
Re: Islands clusters
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:25:09 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: PepsiCo
> Since the Soviets wouldn't allow Pepsi to take their profits out as
> rubles, Pepsi had to *buy* something and ship that out.
What would PepsiCo have done with rubles anyway?
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:27:13 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: JTAS Online
> Not being familiar with JTAS Online (I've been there but haven't
> subscribed) I wonder about it's "canonicity". Is there a Miller
recognized
> line editor?
I think it's fair to describe me that way, yes.
Loren Wiseman
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 15:38:36 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: JTAS Online
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
"Not being familiar with JTAS Online (I've been there but haven't
subscribed) I wonder about it's "canonicity". Is there a Miller recognized
line editor?
I think it's fair to describe me that way, yes.
Loren Wiseman"
Great Ceasars' Ghost! Godfey Daniel! Shades Of Lovecraft! One of the
Olde Wise Ones straight from the depths of colorless space!
That settles it, I'll subsribe.
Larsen E. "Worshipful" Whipsnade
P.S. How's the Space:1889 movie cooming along?
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 15:46:06
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: JTAS Online
I can say my $15 subscription was WELL worth it...
Mike
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 07:52:45 -0800
From: "Colin Paddock" <su_liam@ordata.com>
Subject: JTAS
I have been trying to subscribe to JTAS for the last couple of days, but
the sjgames site seems to time me out before sending me the entire
subscription agreement. I'm not too concerned about the content of the
agreement, but I can't subscribe until they've sent the entire thing to me!
My question for people who are already on JTAS is this: Is the magazine
itself as glacially slow as the subscription site? I would like to know if I
can actually get access to the material I'm paying for before plunking down
ggod cash. Poverty makes a man cheap!
Thank you,
Colin Paddock
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death
that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye and see its path. Where
the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.
Frank Herbert, Dune
- -----------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 11:03:27 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Theory of Evolution
DaveShayne writes:
>>>ObTrav: Larry Niven wrote a story which (IMHO) supposes
>>>that intelligence was no longer a required or beneficial survival trait
>>>in humanity. So humans started regressing.
>>Intelligence and education may actually be negative survival traits. It
>>appears cross-culturally that whenever a community's level of education
>>increases, its birth rate drops. Or, as an ex-girlfriend once exclaimed,
>>"by not having children you're just helping the intelligentsia breed
>>itself out of existence!" (or words to that effect).
>From the same data points it could also be argued that when a community's
>birth rate drops it's level of education increases. The mechanism is fairly
>obvious the fewer children a community of a given size has the greater the
>resources (educational and otherwise) that can be focused on each child.
>And looking for individual survival traits in a species whose greatest
>survival trait is co-operative action is probably counter-productive.
Actually, there is no shortage of individual survival traits to
be found in humans. Our propensity for selfish behaviour is
a good place to start. There is still some debate as to the
mechanisms by which cooperative behaviour evolves, but
many believe that it may be attributed to purely selfish
behaviours. This certainly fits into evolutionary theory (NOTE
for the scientifically illiterate: the term "theory" in science
refers to "A mature, coherent body of interconnected
statements, based on reasoning and evidence, that explains
a variety of observations"[1], and does not in any way imply
a state of tentativeness or a lack of evidence.).
[1] Futuyma, 1998
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:08:28 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: JTAS
Colin Paddock wrote:
>
> I have been trying to subscribe to JTAS for the last couple of days, but
> the sjgames site seems to time me out before sending me the entire
> subscription agreement. I'm not too concerned about the content of the
> agreement, but I can't subscribe until they've sent the entire thing to me!
> My question for people who are already on JTAS is this: Is the magazine
> itself as glacially slow as the subscription site? I would like to know if I
> can actually get access to the material I'm paying for before plunking down
> ggod cash. Poverty makes a man cheap!
I had some delay problems a few days ago with both JTAS and Pyramid, but
they seem to have cleared up.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 11:14:44 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
Hello Larson,
> IMHO deep space refueling is "doable" but not widespread because
>ecenomic factors, the pinpoint jump navigation required, most ship's being
>built without the capability in mind, and sheer social inertia coupled with
>a set of mental blinders. The Imperials only think to do it when all other
>possibilities are exhausted.
I have a real problem with this explanation. Here is why:
In order to hit a specific star using Jump drive, one needs to have what
amounts to "pinpoint" jump navigation. Secondly, there are no stellar
masses or body masses (unless you want to discuss rogue planetary masses
<grin> to act as a jump shadow provider. There really should be no reason
why jumps can't be co-ordinated within a +/- percentage of accuracy
equivalant to the distance of a few AU's at worst.
I concur with your belief about "blinders" <grin>. Someone from the
mailing list once pointed out the concept of using slow (or was it fast?)
Drugs as a means of slowing down the metabolisms of humans for jump
transit. At a 60:1 ratio of real time to perceived time, someone who is a
passanger for 1 week's time would feel as if only 2.8 hours had passed.
This drug could be used *instead* of low berths! It could also be required
that all passengers take this drug as an anti-hijacking preventative <grin>.
All things considered, I suspect that a lot of "canon" material in
Traveller is the result of oversights and lack of expertise and/or time to
consider the implications. One of the reasons why I suspect that tech
level increases are population level driven is because the more people you
have working on a problem - sooner or later the problem will either be
partially solved, or fully solved. The more people you have working on a
problem, the more "blind alleys" are that can be explored and discarded
until finally, the solution is wrinkled out.
Hal
PS - the analogy of planet bound systems to space borne systems is a flawed
one. None of the ships on the surface of the world need worry about life
support supplies running out. Also, if you really consider the issue -
during world war II, weren't there fuel bunker ships???
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:57:10 -0600
From: "David C. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Subject: RE: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
> > What happens in canon to a ship that is already in jumpspace if ...
>
> > 1.) ... external stores (ie. items attached to hull) are jettisoned?
>
> Whatever is jettisoned vanishes completely. You never find a trace of it.
This makes perfect sense.
>
> > 2.) ... the jump drive is turned off?
>
> Ditto for the ship and all who ride in her.
>
> > 3.) ... the flow of power (or fuel) to the jump engines is reduced?
>
> Ditto
I have a problem here. IIRC, back in CT, or HG, it talked about the
preperation for jump. It mentioned that the Hydrogen fuel was all consumed
and then the ship jumped. This is also similar to the Black Globe
Generators that stored the energy in the Jump Capacitors, and could be used
to jump the ship.
Thus the way that it read to me was that the process of opening the Jump
Tear took all the energy, and then nothing else was required for the
duration of the jump.
Allowing a momentary glitch of power to destroy a ship...well considerring
the office building I am in suffers a brown out once a month...and the
average Free trader spends about 6 days per 21 in jump...your odds for
survival approach nil over the long term. Just a thought.
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)
ICQ PIN 1259783
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber. However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:55:48 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: JTAS
I never had a problem with the subscription server being slow like that, or
having slow access to JTAS itself (with the exception of the discussion
forum, but that's to be expected when there's a WHOLE bunch of messages in
there ;). Of course, my access to it has always been on a fast pipe. DSL
at home, and T1 or greater at work, so that may have something to do with
it......
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Colin Paddock
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 7:53 AM
> To: Traveller Mailing List
> Subject: JTAS
>
>
> I have been trying to subscribe to JTAS for the last couple
> of days, but
> the sjgames site seems to time me out before sending me the entire
> subscription agreement. I'm not too concerned about the content of the
> agreement, but I can't subscribe until they've sent the entire
> thing to me!
> My question for people who are already on JTAS is this: Is the magazine
> itself as glacially slow as the subscription site? I would like
> to know if I
> can actually get access to the material I'm paying for before
> plunking down
> ggod cash. Poverty makes a man cheap!
>
> Thank you,
>
> Colin Paddock
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death
> that brings total obliteration.
> I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
> And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye and see its
> path. Where
> the fear has gone there will be nothing.
> Only I will remain.
>
> Frank Herbert, Dune
> -----------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 16:54:50 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
>From: hal@buffnet.net
"All things considered, I suspect that a lot of "canon" material in
Traveller is the result of oversights and lack of expertise and/or time to
consider the implications. One of the reasons why I suspect that tech
level increases are population level driven is because the more people you
have working on a problem - sooner or later the problem will either be
partially solved, or fully solved. The more people you have working on a
problem, the more "blind alleys" are that can be explored and discarded
until finally, the solution is wrinkled out."
Hi Hal,
Thanks for input! I happen to believe that deep space refuleing is
cheap and easy. What I was trying to do, and very poorly at that, was to
find some common ground for this teapot tempest.
I also agree with your point about navigation. Any system that can
take a ship into jump space and then pull it out parsec away within a few AU
of it's target point implies pin-point navigation. I added that requirement
as sop to the wavering minds, even though I knew better.
Deep space fuel caches have been a part of Traveller since before there
was a Traveller. Look at the Imperium boardgame and the need for players to
build a tanker in order to transit through Sirius. Other examples abound
throughout every version of the game.
There are just too many examples for the idea to be a simple oversight;
like A:4's jump torpedoes or DGP's jump fuel ideas. The game's own history
has the US doing it with tiny, experimental craft in order to reach Banard.
Every example points to it's ease and use. But, folks simply still
won't accept it. If a bunch of stumble bums like Arekut and the rag-tag
crew of the March Harrier can do it, why not anyone else?
The only "barrier" to it's general use (other than mental blinders)
might be the ship's physical construction, and I'm stretching things here.
A FedEx DC-10 doesn't differ too much from the Air Force version, but the
USAF's airframe has a few extra widgets that make air-to-air refueling
possible. The FedEx plane cannot even attempt it.
Might ships that are expected to use deep space fuel caches have a few
extra widgets? Something that makes refueling easier and faster, without
the need for extensive EVAs that the crew might be ill suited for, or some
other unknown requirements? If so, merchant firms would have an "excuse"
for not doing it more often.
Your point about "real world" examples is well made. They can only be
taken so far. Yes, there were fleet oilers on almost all the major
combatants rosters. In fact, colliers were used in WW1, the Russo-Japanese
War, with the Great White Fleet, even during the Civil War.
Most of these vessels could only replenish their charges while moored.
The fast oilers and stores ships in WW2 could do so while both vessels were
moving. Of course that took extra widgets on both ships too. And I'm not
suggesting that deep space refueling takes place without the vessels being
at rest with respect to one another.
Larsen
P.S. I like your take on population vs. tech level too. With economies of
scale, a larger population can support more specialists for research,
application, and prodcution. Small-pop, hi-tech worlds must rely on
imported, rather than indigenous, technology. There's thread going on at
the trav-culture group about this right now.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 08:58:58 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] !!Request!!
LOL!!! I'll let ya' know as soon as I can ;)
Jesse
> Ahhh, the Corsair... Ergh, sorry for the delay in noting this, Jesse, but
> the only EXTERNAL picture I know of is a Kieth-drawn stern-quarter view
> image in Megatraveller. And my books are home right now. ISTR that the
> deckplan and the shillouette follow it pretty closely, however.
>
> I'll wait patiently until you're done before asking what book it is, if
> it'll be about pirates and corsairs. =) Oh, don't forget the cable attach
> points on the hull. Pirates need something to hook lines to, before they
> start swinging accross th' void onto a fat merchant a-loaded wit' fine
> plunder! Arrrrr....
>
> Uhm... yes, there are pirates IMTU, why do you ask...?
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 02:06:50 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
On Thursday, February 08, 2001, 3:23:44 PM, the following was written:
MU> >Okay, how about we all sit on our hands for a few minutes and think this
MU> >one through. This is not only *way* off topic, but potentially as
MU> explosive as
MU> >the dreaded "Gun Control". May I humbly suggest we drop this.
We didn´t have an "Using the A-Bomb was/wasn´t evil!"-Threat in a long
time ;-)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:05:04 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: Bandwidth Jealosy )wasRE:JTAS)
</Green eyes>
Huh, it's alright for some
</Green eyes>
Dean
>
>I never had a problem with the subscription server being slow
>like that, or
>having slow access to JTAS itself (with the exception of the discussion
>forum, but that's to be expected when there's a WHOLE bunch of
>messages in
>there ;). Of course, my access to it has always been on a
>fast pipe. DSL
>at home, and T1 or greater at work, so that may have something
>to do with
>it......
>
>Jesse
>
>"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little
>temporary safety
>deserve neither liberty nor safety."
>-Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
>> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Colin Paddock
>> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 7:53 AM
>> To: Traveller Mailing List
>> Subject: JTAS
>>
>>
>> I have been trying to subscribe to JTAS for the last couple
>> of days, but
>> the sjgames site seems to time me out before sending me the entire
>> subscription agreement. I'm not too concerned about the
>content of the
>> agreement, but I can't subscribe until they've sent the entire
>> thing to me!
>> My question for people who are already on JTAS is this: Is
>the magazine
>> itself as glacially slow as the subscription site? I would like
>> to know if I
>> can actually get access to the material I'm paying for before
>> plunking down
>> ggod cash. Poverty makes a man cheap!
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Colin Paddock
>>
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------
>> I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the
>little-death
>> that brings total obliteration.
>> I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me
>and through me.
>> And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye and see its
>> path. Where
>> the fear has gone there will be nothing.
>> Only I will remain.
>>
>> Frank Herbert, Dune
>> -----------------------------------
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:20:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Facts & Theories
Matt Bond writes:
> For creationism to be taught alongside evolution, as an alternative
> explanation (ie Theory) then it would need to credibly explain how
> species evolve. IIRC it doesn't. In fact it dismisses the concept
> completely.
Well, no. A scientific theory needs to be testable and have predictive value
to be taken seriously (in practice, these work out to the same thing).
Creationism is neither.
>
> Someone else stated that like evolutionary theory, Einstein's Theory of
> Relativity was 'unproven', because it was only a theory... again, the
> Fact of relativity exists.
Well, to be more accurate, time dilation, mass changes, etc, have been observed. Relativity is the theory of why and how this happens.
> out, leaving an equation corresponding to Newton's. Therefore Newton's
> theorem was a subset of Quantum Mechanics, but until observation
> revealed the discrepancies at the finest level it matched the data
> available and was assumed to apply at all levels.
More accuracely, newton's laws of motion are a good approximation of actual
behavior within the range of objects observable with instruments available
at the time. They are not a subset.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 09:27:47 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: ***SNORE***
>Do I want to know what Fearless Cap'n Vouf was doing with those slave
>girls? (Getting them to rub his tummy would be my guess... lookit his leg
>twitch!)
Well, Kelly, you obviously know who my favorite Vargr is (although I guess
technically, he isn't mine.) :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:40:03 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Government Code questions
On 9 Feb 2001, at 9:44, Rob wrote:
> Also...what about the 'Bollywood' concept? India (a high pop place if ever I saw
> one) has a bigger move industry than America...but most of its product is for
> local release cos the 'western' world is under the sway of 'Hollywood' ...
Hmm, as a different data point, I work with a chap from India (Madras
vicinity - or what used to be called Madras I guess), and we were
talking about comedians (I had seen Tim Allen live years ago) and he
said the idea of actually going to see a *comedian* was foreign to him.
The media industry in India, which he said was big, not not as big (or
polished) as ours. Given the large number of individual cultures and
languages within India, the good local comedians he said got glossed
over in favor of comedians and shows that he *distinctly* western
styles, because they were western and were profitable if pale
immitations of Hollywood affairs.
I'm sure there are local groups/cultures that turn away from the
western influence in India, but he didn't mention any. He's visiting
relatives in Florida, but I'll ask when he returns next week.
> Other Rob
Hmm. I guess I'm the 'other other Rob', or Rob^3, or just
Rob D.
- --
Rob
'Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at math.'
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:55:05 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions)
On 8 Feb 2001, at 23:06, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> I can see all sorts of entertainment media from many worlds finding
> niches on other worlds. Despite many many bad examples, humanity is rather
> xenophilic. Just the fad factor will help many of the cross- overs; look at
> the current anime fad in the US.
(True, but it strikes me as weird that we can be so xenophobic and -
philic at the same time. OK, maybe not the same time or group of
people. People would tend toward phobia if feeling threatened in some
way, and philia if feeling secure and bored [i.e. the younger
generations].)
> Whether or not every nuance of a peice of entertainment will be picked
> on is much less certain. Friends in the UK tell mee half the humor on
How much bandwidth would their be for media?
Are there only n "channels" of stuff coming off the x-boats? ITV1,
ITV2, etc. Or would there be 500,000 channels to choose from?
(Thinking about it, I can imagine a few dozen standard Imperium-wide, x-
boat-carried, Imperium-sponsored channels used to disseminate public
information, and help keep the culture knitted together; while in
larger and larger markets there would be more "channels" of media,
state-tolerated/approved carried through commercial routes.)
> "Monty Python" involved the charecters accents and thus was completely lost
> to the legion of fans in North America. The best way it was explained to me
> was to imagine a neurosurgeon charecter on SNL who sounds like Jethro Bodine
> of the Beverly Hillbillies.
Well, that explains some of the TV shows and how I missed some of the
humor there while loving the movies.
> Jiggle shows would be marketed very carfully and not just becuse of the
> usual "we wrap our women in bedsheets" reasons. Standards of beauty and
> what's considered obscene very widely too. There was a recent post about a
> sci-fi short story in which only the navel had to be covered while swimming.
On official channels, sure they'd be 'least common offensive
denominator', but I suspect people of means could get whatever types of
shows are out there.
> As for standards of beauty, I was informed during a biz trip to southern
> India that the standard of feamle beauty there involved eyebrows so
> "luxurious" that they'd do Ed Asner or Andy Rooney proud. Don't think that
> might come across too well elsewhere.
> Speaking of "Bollywood" India's film, I don't think Hollywood's
> supposed sranglehold on worldwide film distribution has anything to do with
> that lack of Indian film not being exported. First, the domestic audience
> is so huge that the films are strongly skewed towards local mores. Second,
> the Bollywood product is almost uniformly HORRIFIC. Believe me, if Ed Wood
> had worked there, the locals would think of him as Speilberg. I've seen
> better film on a four day old glass of milk.
My Indian friend said it was bad, but I had no idea...
Rob D.
- --
Rob
Surreal Sage sez: Maintain thy airspeed, lest the ground rise up and smite
thee
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:07:40 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Boing
Gerry Harris wrote:
> Sounds a bit parasitic...
Yup. And that was the watered-down description! Some of what
I've seen was unethical and even illegal. I'm hesitant to tell
all for legal reasons (not to mention OT). Hmmm ... if you see me
post a write-up of a Traveller megacorp in the next little while
then you should read between the lines.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:18:08 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Heplar, T-Plates, etc.
Greetings & Salutation all,
Does anyone know the cannonical (If exists) date for the creation/discovery
of thruster plates, heplar and other such non jump space drive systems?
I can find plenty of material on when each race dicovered a certain jump
drive level, But almost nothing about the various normal space drives.
I found this from the Traveller Integrated Time Line.
- -4288 First K'kree grav drive
Did the Villani scoot around on Heplar until the Terrans showed up?
What kind of drives did they use in the First Interstellar War?
etc.
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
==============
"There ain't no rules around here. We're trying to accomplish
something." -Thomas Edison
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:12:33 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Islands clusters
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> "Five of them have been mentioned in an article on JTAS Online so far,
>and more are certainly implied. YMMV as to the canonicity of JTAS Online
>articles, ofcourse."
>
> Not being familiar with JTAS Online (I've been there but haven't
>subscribed) I wonder about it's "canonicity". Is there a Miller recognized
>line editor?
Yes. Loren Wiseman is GT line editor AND editor of JTAS Online. And I really
reccomend you try out the magazine. You get 156 articles for $15 PLUS access
to all previous issues, another 160+ articles.
>Even with one, there could still be some whoppers created.
All we can do is our best.
>Look at DGPs jump fuel ruling in MT for intance.
I forget about that. What did their ruling say?
> "You don't "run off" a couple of hundred millions sentients. You either
>kill them off or work out a _modus vivendi_ with them."
>
> Or blockade them to prevent off world travel. Do you really think the
>Imperium would tacitly allow further colonization in Deneb or the Marches by
>the same species it's fighting in the Corridor?
I evidently see the Imperium as being a good deal less insular than you do. What
in the world difference does it make what species someone is if he is loyal to
the Imperium?
In any case, I don't intend to introduce any Vargr world with starfaring
capability at that time, so the point is entirely moot.
> "No material points to large Vargr populations in either the Marches or
>Deneb. So far two such worlds, Grant and Extolay, have been mentioned,
>again in JTAS Online articles, and I certainly hope to introduce a few more
>(but only a few). Jewell would be one of them."
>
> Jewell? Jewell? JEWELL!??! The steadfastly loyal fortress world of
>five Frontier Wars? The Third Imperium's Stalingrad, Alamo, and Rorke's
>Drift all rolled in to one? The world that's been besieged, invaded,
>bombed, and cratered while remaining unswervingly loyal to the Emperor and
>Imperium? Jewell inhabited by a Vargr majority? Pull my other leg, it
>barks.
I didn't say a Vargr majority. Just that in the year 55 I see Jewell as having
a moderate Vargr population.
> I think I know have a new winner for the "contradiction in terms"
>definitions contest. "Loyal Vargr" sure beats "jumbo shrimp".
I don't see the problem. Any Vargr would defend its home world against attack in
much the same way a human would.
> My question above about the "canonicity" of JTAS Online has been
>answered. 8^)
Well, in fairness to Loren, he hasn't accepted anything about Vargr on Jewell
and the adventure that mentioned Vargr on Grant was accepted for PYRAMID[*], so
he's innocent there too. But he is guilty wrt. the fully integrated Vargr on
Extolay.
[*] But it's mirrored in the JTAS Online archives, so you can read it anyway if
you get a subscription ;-).
>"There isn't all that much evidence of colonizing effort on the part of the
>Imperium itself, and what wars are you referring to?"
>
> The Corridor campaign,
Was propably fought to protect trade routes as much as or more than emigrant
routes.
>...the Julian Wars,
Fought to coerce valuable fully-developed tax-generating worlds to join.
>the war agaist the Aslan that culminated in the Peace of Ftahalr.
Appears to have been fought for a matter of principle (and by very limited
forces).
>...the Ilelish Rebellion,
Fought to suppress a rebellion.
>the Chanestin Kingdom (they actually bombed the Imperial Palace. There also
>was still enough of a threat to force Martin I 166-195 to fortify his palace.)
Eh? I thought the Chanestin Kingdom was broken just before the Imperium was
founded?
> "And how many ships were there?"
>
> Four frieghter each handling slightly more than 1000dT. I figured with
>three operating at any given time and the fourth done for simple maintenance
>and crew liberty. That would put one at each trans-rift terminus world 3
>out of four weeks. Figuring 2dTs for and colonist and his supplies it's 500
>every 4 week period, or 6500. Let's call it 6000, freeing up some
>additional cargo space for incidentals. So we could move your 10K colonist
>target with only four ships in 20 months.
Well, with an 8-parsec gap you need three jumps each way, so each ship would
deliver a load every 6 jump. Allow 8 days per jump on the average and it's one
round trip in 48 days. Call it 7 round trips per year to allow for slightly
longer turnaround times at the termini (terminusses?) and annual maintenance.
That's 3,500 per ship per year. Now, how much did you say such a ship cost?
Divide that by 3,500 and you get the cost to move a colonist one subsector.
Now figure out how much it'll cost to send one about ten times as far...
> "Óh, the _Imperium_ could no doubt afford it. And so could any
>high-population member world. The question is, why would they spend all that
>money to get rid of a tiny fraction of a percent of their population?"
>
> Isn't there a canon description of a Marches system being developed for
>colonization, but the project is running behind due to the 5th Frontier War
>and the first group of colonists in low berths are due soon "from the Core"?
Heh. There is indeed. Forboldn. I've actually written it up for PYRAMID. The
primary goal of the Ministry of Colonization is not to export people form the
core, it is to create a sound, moderately powerful, loyal system in the Marches.
> Why should those corpsicles come all the way out to Marches if there are
>higher priorities and still empty spaces closer to home?
Propably the result of some compromise struck by someone, somewhere. No doubt
the Ministry of Colonization has as much lobbying as any other government
institution.
> Because sustained, substantial Imperial emigration into Deneb, the
>Marches, and the Trojan Reach is a long standing Imperial policy. It
>re-enforces the Imperial claim to those areas over the claims of the other
>species and branches of humaniti already there.
If such a policy had been carried out for a millenium, then the demographics of
the Spinward Marches would be far different and the worlds far more crowded
than they are. And why should they? The child of an Imperial marcher is just as
loyal as someone shipped in from some other world. Propably more.
Incidentally, the project you speak of is a drop in the ocean (100,000 per year
for 10 years) and was in the planning stage for many decades (lowering the
average per year considerably) . Yet it is said to be the premier colonization
project in the Marches (or was it just Regina? I forget).
> Why some high pop worlds in Ilelish or Daibei didn't see the Ilands as
>an attractive colonization project far earlier, rather than shipping their
>cargoes of corpsicles "Behind the Claw" via Vland is the mystery.
Because colonization projects are not attractive to the exporting world unless
they serve some political purpose. Getting rid of malcontents and misfits have
benefits in itself, but sheer export is worthless. You can't relieve population
pressures worth a damn, and you get no benefit from your colonies unless they
are cloes enough for you to control. Remember, the Imperium discourages
multi-world member states.
> Now if a small megacorp subsidary can find the means to build, staff,
>and supply a deep space fuel depot and everyday merchant ships can jump so
>precisely that maneuvering towards it takes so little time, then why are
>people so dead set against the idea? Beats me.
Because it increases the cost of fuel considerably and is thus not interesting
except for very special occasions.
Hans
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3626
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3627
Date: | 2/9/01 12:03:10 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, February 9 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3627
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
John Groth, are you still recording? another keyboard kill
Re: 1889 Movie
Re: Heplar, T-Plates, etc.
RE: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
Imperium (Was something very long)
Re: Islands
RE: 1889 Movie
Re: JTAS Online
Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
re: hey, anyone else?
Re: Rio (Was: More landgrab info)
Hostile Environment Power Req'ts
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: JTAS
Re: Bandwidth Jealosy )wasRE:JTAS)
Re: Rio (Was: More landgrab info)
Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:38:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: John Groth, are you still recording? another keyboard kill
Woo-hoo! On my way to acedom! I hope John Groth is still checking his
email to record this one!
- --Glenn
********************************************************************
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:32:55 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: inflation of Imperial Naval vessels
On Thu, 8 Feb 2001, Glenn Goffin wrote:
> you do recall the time the Zhodani on Esalin ordered a
> case of condoms from the Imperials. As part of a psyop, the
[deletion]
congrats. you owe UCSF a keyboard. where should I send
the bill?
lol, luckily they are more durable than that...
kiri-chan ^_^
********************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:48:22 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: 1889 Movie
In a message dated 09-Feb-01 12:15:25 PM Central Standard Time,
owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
> P.S. How's the Space:1889 movie cooming along?
I'm no longer directly involved, but I understand the production company's
option is still active. The books themselves are being reprinted as facsimile
editions . . .
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 18:52:40 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Heplar, T-Plates, etc.
>From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
"Does anyone know the cannonical (If exists) date for the
creation/discovery of thruster plates, heplar and other such non jump space
drive systems?"
Check out G:Rim of Fire. There's a column starting on pg 42 that goes
into the technology of the Interstellar Wars. In essence it says Vland had
reactionless thrusters far superior to the Terrans at first, giving them a
big advantage in missiles and manueverability, but reverse engineering, and
Vilani gaffes, let the boys from Sol catch up fast enough not to be
squashed.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:58:08 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
Rob Davenport wrote:
> Are there only n "channels" of stuff coming off the x-boats?
> ITV1, ITV2, etc. Or would there be 500,000 channels to choose
> from?
>
> (Thinking about it, I can imagine a few dozen standard Imperium-
> wide, x-boat-carried, Imperium-sponsored channels used to
> disseminate public information, and help keep the culture
> knitted together; while in larger and larger markets there
> would be more "channels" of media, state-tolerated/approved
> carried through commercial routes.)
I don't see the X-boat system running this way. Rather than
channels I see entertainment media being bundled into packages
and sold to local distributors/broadcasters ... either on the
open market or through loose franchise agreements.
That's how the UK gets a lot of US programming today: we don't
get NBC (or whatever) directly, the BBC or a commercial
broadcaster buys the distribution rights. Also each package is
made up of some good stuff and some dross ... to get the good
stuff the local distributor gets the dross as well and usually
airs it since its paid for. (This also explains how the BBC can
have the broadcast rights to "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" while
rival Channel 4 has the broadcast rights to spin-off series
"Angel". In some parts they are even broadcast at the same time
in competition with each other.)
Back to Traveller: I see news programs and some documentaries
being distributed primarily in affiliation 'networks', and
entertainment media in more open market deals. (And some planets
may have only state-run broadcasters. They'd have a local
monopoly on x-boat media material.)
Example: "Duddley Media Corp" (a subsidiary of Naasirka) makes a
show "Pirates of the Blood Asteroids". Naasirka distribute it in
a package with a number of other shows. On Regina it has global
broadcast on "Channel Naasirka" (a franchise operation to
Naasirka). On Jewell its broadcast in the north by "Channel
Naasirka" (another franchise operation), but in the south on the
"Jewell Entertainment Network" (an independant). On Efate "Efate
TV" (another Naasirka franchise despite the different name)
declines to buy the broadcast rights, but "FreeTV Efate" (an
independent) and "Genius TV" (a rival to "Efate TV") club
together to buy the package this show is in ... "FreeTV" getting
"Pirates ..." and Genius TV getting everything else in the
package. On Yori there is only state-run "TV-One" and they
decline the show (so its not available there.) Thus a Naasirka
show is broadcast in some places on a franchise channel, in
others on an independant channel, and in some cases on a rival
channel, or not at all. And in each case the show would be
subject to local censorship as local customs and mores are
different.
Meanwhile the xboat (and sometimes a commercial trader) carries
the show in packages recorded on data spools (or whatever).
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 21:02:18 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Imperium (Was something very long)
On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> How many people remember the wargame (boardgame) Imperium? If I recall
Actually, I read the rules two days ago. B-)
Having played just two wars with it (the first one was when I bought the
game, about eleven years ago, or something like that, and the other three
years ago) I had the idea of playing Imperium on-line.
The idea has some difficulties, like dice and whether it should be
real-time or pbem, but these can be worked over.
Sadly, I have no time for long games this spring. Perhaps during the
summer...
Is anybody interested? I have asked my friends here, and they do not want
to play. I can of course ask again when I have the time, but the problems
could be worked out before playing...
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:02:19 -0600 (CST)
From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
Subject: Re: Islands
>Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 12:58:33 -0000
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Islands
> How long did it take Eldorado to effect repairs?
Most likely less than a year: there is not a separate entry in the
timeline. Certainly less than three years, however:
"5501 Imperial Strike Cruiser Eldorado misjumps into Clusters...
"5504 Serendip Belt starship C-Breaker makes first jump"
Adv. 5, p. 43
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:01:25 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: 1889 Movie
LKW wrote:
> > P.S. How's the Space:1889 movie cooming along?
>
> I'm no longer directly involved, but I understand the production
> company's option is still active. The books themselves are being
> reprinted as facsimile editions . . .
Doesn't it take a long time to print on a fax machine?
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:38:32
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: JTAS Online
At 10:27 AM 2/9/2001 EST, Loren wrote:
>> Not being familiar with JTAS Online (I've been there but haven't
>> subscribed) I wonder about it's "canonicity". Is there a Miller
>> recognized line editor?
>
>I think it's fair to describe me that way, yes.
I am now picturing a police line up. Marc is escorted in, and a number of
tall men with beards are in the viewing area. The cop asks Marc "Sir, do
you recognize any of these people?"
Marc squints, strps up to the glass, and then says: "Yes officer, that's
him, number 4. He's the one!"
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:43:26
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
At 10:48 PM 2/7/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>In the next week or so, I will be mobilized to serve in the fifth year
>of the one-year peacekeeping mission in the Balkans.
Johm since you are not combat arms, I'll give you our most treasureed secret.
The end of the rifle with the little hole in it goes towards the enemy.
Happy to help. :)
Take care of yourself, and we'll have a drink for you at BayCon. Send me
your snail mail and I'll make sure that you get some morale boosters over
there.
<sent to both home and list.>
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 10:45:18
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
At 02:04 AM 2/9/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>I'm afraid as a list newbie, I haven't an idea about what you're on about.
>Which would probably make me a perfect volunteer, but I'm not that mad. :)
We have a tradition of trying to make each other laugh hard enough to expel
whatever liquid one has been drink onto the keyboard. The traditional
expression of "that was so damn funny I nearly died" is simply "keyboard
kill."
I have several, including the day I got five people with one post.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:18:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: hey, anyone else?
>From: "A. Batishko" <abatish@utah-inter.net>
>
>I recently moved into the Salt Lake City area. Any of you
>guys from around there? I'm really missing my old RPG group...
If all of the bureaucrats are members of the same church, is it a
charismatic theocracy or an impersonal bureaucracy? You decide.
I lived there for three years in the late 1980s, and the skiing was
phenomenal! If you don't ski, now is the time to get up there and take
some lessons -- downhill, telemark, cross-country, whatever. Skiing is a
great resource. It is in fact one of the only things to do in the winter.
Do they still blast Christmas carols onto the street from loudspeakers in
the twin malls downtown, just like in a North Korean POW camp?
In the summer, go check out the desert (seriously, in the summer, you'll
have the place to yourself), especially the places off the tourist radar,
like Dead Horse Point, Wild Horse Canyon, the San Rafael Swell. Bring a
lot of water. Tune up your vehicle.
I knew several Iranians there. They said it was a lot like Tehran. For
example, it is at the northern end of a high plains desert, at the foot of
high mountains. The skiing around Tehran can be very good, they said.
There is also excellent Persian coffee available in cafes in both places
- --made by Persians in both places, of course.
When I lived there, I played Traveller a couple of times a year with a
friend from the east coast whose family was in Idaho Falls, and who used
to fly through Salt Lake City. I never connected with any local
Travellers, but the Internet was not then generally available to ordinary
consumers. (I was on the automation committee of my law firm at that
time, and recall one of the senior partners asking, "well, do we want to
be one of those law firms where every lawyer has a computer on their
desk?" and every lawyer under 35 nodding.) I did buy my copy of Invasion:
Earth there, at a store that sold checkers, Monopoly, and the like.
Ob Traveller, I'm thinking of travelling up to the Sierras to go skiing
pretty soon!
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:25:42 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Rio (Was: More landgrab info)
Hans,
Have you 'landgrabbed' Rio yet?
Tod
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Hans Rancke-Madsen" <rancke@diku.dk>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 12:14 AM
Subject: Rio (Was: More landgrab info)
> William Lane writes:
>
> >Ok First I definatly want to do Rio in the Chronor Sector so if someone
> >could set me up for it i would really appreciate it.
> >
> >Second I am using CT rules for the creation of this world. I see some are
> >using other sets of rules or something because I see classifications i
ahve
> >never seen
> >
> >Ex class C/III starport
> >
> >is there a Problem using just CT rules for the creation of this system?
>
> Not as far as I am concerned, but _GT:First In_ does have some superb
rules. I
> find that using a mixture of _First In_ and _World Builders' Handbook_
produces
> better results than using either by itself.
>
> Using CT rules alone does have the problem that you sometimes get
impossible
> results (world size vs. atmosphere etc.).
>
> >Also I would like a complete history of the Imperium...
>
> Wouldn't we all.
>
> >...and specifically the Spinward Marches.
> >
> >Where can i get this.
>
> I'm working on it, but it won't be finished for a while yet ;-). Meanwhile
I can
> send you my file of canonical dates for the Spinward Marches. It's too
long to
> post here. Let me know if you want it.
>
> However, I think it will be all right to post my file on Rio:
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -----
> System: Rio
> Subsector: Cronor
> Sector: Spinward Marches - Classic Era
> Coordinates: 0301 (A0301)
> UWP: C686648-8
>
> Starport: Routine
> Size: Medium (10,000 km)
> Atmosphere: Dense
> Hydrographics: 62% water
> Population: 2,000,000
> Govt: Representative democracy
> Law Level: High
> Technology: Pre-Stellar
>
> Bases: None
> Trade Codes: Ag Ni Ri Tp
> Travel Zone: Green
> Planetoid Belts: 0
> Gas Giants: 1
> Allegiance: Non-aligned
>
> Stars: M1 V M0 D
>
> Rio is settled between 400 and 500 [TA:15]. It is part of the Imperium by
> 589, but becomes independent during 1FW and remains independent until
> sometime between 1122 and 1202 where it becomes a Zhodani client state.
> [SMC:14-15 & RS:36]
>
> 0301 Rio (Independent)
> Starport: Class III
> Diameter: 6,215 miles (10,000 km). Atmosphere: Dense oxygen-nitrogen.
> Surface Water: 62%. Climate: Cold. Population: 1,100,000,000. Government:
> Representative democracy. Control Rating: 4. TL: 8.
>
> Rio was first colonized by humans during the Rule Of Man. The landing went
> badly ,and left the settlers with no way off-world. It took hundreds of
years
> for the settlers to regain past knowledge until they were contacted by the
> Zhodani and the Imperials. The government of Rio has kept the planet
neutral
> for the past 530 years, and allows both Imperial and Zhodani vessels to
use
> its starport as long as all starship weapons remain covered.
>
>
> 1105: C686648-8/?
> 1107: -"-
> 1110: C686648-8/2
> 1117: -"-
> 1202: B686648-A/6; Interface station
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -----
>
> ...and my tentative history of Chronor subsector to 55 (Note that this is
not
> canonical; it is, however, compatible with the canon I know of):
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -----
> Around -300,000 the Ancients visited several of the worlds in Chronor
Subsec-
> tor and left their traces on at least two of them. A group of Droyne was
left
> on A0103 (Errere/Ezhfrepl) and lost their ability to caste after the
Final
> War. Their descendants survive as Chirpers, though not known by that name.
One
> or more Ancient sites lie hidden on A0307 (Atsa/Brefie) and won't be
found
> until after 1117.
>
> Siru Zirka scouts propably never reached this far; if they did, the
records
> have been lost.
>
> Around -2500 the Zhodani established a small research outpost on
Idrianzh
> (0202). The outpost was maintained more or less continuously and other
> outposts were kept, on and off, on several other worlds until
around -1000,
> but no permanent settlements ever took root.
>
> Between -1370 and -1270 the Darrians of Daryen (0627) explored most of the
> space for more than 20 parsecs around them, almost certainly including
some of
> Cronor Subsector, but they just missed encountering the Zhodani. After
that
> exploration was limited to worlds closer to home. A renewed spurt of
explora-
> tions begun around -930 was cut short by the MAGHIZ before it reached the
> Zhodani.
>
> During the 11th Century PI Chronor Subsector was the site of a grand
Zhodani
> colonization project involving numerous T-prime and T-norm planets in
Chronor
> and the surrounding subsectors during which a number of indigenous species
> were transplanted between the various planets. A policy change caused the
> abandonment of the entire project around -1000. Since then some mining
> ventures have occasionally been attempted, but they have usually failed.
The
> only Zhodani presense in the subsector in the Year 55 is a small mining
outfit
> on Chronor.
>
> In 50, following an incredible series of no less than 4 misjump, Morton
Stout,
> an independent Imperial trader, stumbled across a Zhodani mining outpost
on
> Chronor. He kept the discovery secret and tried to raise money for a trade
> expedition to this fantastic new market, but failed because he couldn't
> convince potential investors of his not very belivable story. It would be
> years before he was vindicated and recieved a spot in the history books
(as
> well as in the Guiness Book of Galactic Records for Most Consecutive
Misjumps
> Survived).
>
> In 52 the Imperial Scout Cruiser VASCO DA GAMA sent to explored the 1st
> Qadrant found the Zhodani at Chronor. They aborted their original mission,
> went to Prtzl, the nearest sizable Zhodani planet, in the Massina
Subsector,
> spent over a year there, and returned to Deneb in 54.
>
> In late 55 a second expedition returned to the Marches to complete the
survey.
> VITUS BERING and JOSEPH BANKS took a diplomatic mission to Prtzl and
> afterwards surveyed the rest of the 1st Qadrant.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -----
>
> As you will see if you look at my notes, there are several canon conflicts
> concerning Rio. According to a line in _Darrians_ in -1513 the only human
> populations in the Spinward Marches was on Darrian, Vanejen, Algine and "a
few
> Zhodani worlds". So when BtC says that Rio was settled during the Rule of
Man,
> we get a problem, unless we assume that it is one of those Zhodani worlds
at the
> time.
>
> Next there is the star class. If Rio is settled during the RoM, when most
of the
> worlds in the Marches are empty, we must assume that it was selected out
of a
> number of possible worlds. Thus it should not only be a pretty nice world,
but
> one of the nicest worlds in its stellar neighborhood. (Unless you prefer
to
> assume that the settlers had no choice because their jump drive was on the
> fritz, and that one has been used so often it has green fuzz growing all
over
> it). It has the potential to be a Terran-prime world, but only if it is in
the
> life zone and isn't tide-locked. My suggestion would be to change the
primary to
> a K1 V instead of an M1 V. In fact, if you're using CT rules only, you
_have_ to
> change the star class, because by CT rules M1 class stars don't have a
suitable
> orbit for a world with a breathable atmosphere.
>
> Finally, there is the size of the population. CT canon has it as 2 million
while
> BtC has it as 1.1 billion. Now, it's no secret that I consider BtC badly
broken,
> but for once I'm inclined to go with what it says over previous canon. If
Rio
> has been settled for 3,000 years, 2 million inhabitants is on the low
side, IMO.
> Not to mention that if Rio is neutral, then either it is capable of defend
ing
> itself, or it has some "Big Brother" that protects it. Neither of these
points
> are irrefutable; life on Rio could be unusually hard and diplomatic
pressure by
> the Imperium _might_ have kept the Zhodani at bay (although it hasn't
protected
> several other worlds that we know of). But the total lack of correlation
between
> habitability and population is one of the things that bugs me about CT
world
> generation, so I'd welcome a chance to up the population of a Terran-prime
> world. YMMV.
>
> Anyway, here is a suggestion for a few entries to Rio's chronology:
>
> Settled some time between -2300 and -1700 by a group of Vilani [or other
> dissidents] fleeing the Rule of Man. Lost most technology during the
landing and
> spent several centuries in barbary.
>
> Contacted by the Zhodani some time before -1513. The Zhodani set up a
small
> outpost (scientific, trade, mining, what?). They interacted with the
locals, but
> didn't interfere much with them (Maybe the locals were nomadic or just
spread
> out all over the world?).
>
> From -1100 to -1000 the Zhodani did a lot of preparations for settling the
area.
> This would include missions to Rio, but they did not have the manpower to
> assimilate the locals (They may have given them some bad memories, though
;-).
>
> Around -1000 the Zhodani abandoned their grand scheme and left Rio alone
again
> (Maybe there was a second technological regression after they went away?).
>
> Between 400 and 500 Imperials came to Rio and settled there. Rio joins the
> Imperium between 500 and 589, but becomes independent again during the 1st
> Frontier War and remains independent from then on.
>
>
> Let me know what you think.
>
>
> Hans
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:19:10 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: Hostile Environment Power Req'ts
How much output of a power plant (% wise, not in absolute numbers) would
y'all say goes to provide artificial gravity and life support to an orbital
facility or sealed habitat on a zero-G world? Or a ship for that matter?
Is there some definite canon material on this?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:31:43 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
"Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:
> Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> > I've always taken a short description of the proper spheres of
> > science and religion to be
> >
> > "Science asks what the universe is. Religion asks why."
>
> Nope.
> Philosophy asks why.
> Religion tells you to stop asking awkward questions and just have
> faith.
Militant atheism is no more appealing, polite, or defensible than
any other form of religious fundamentalism.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 19:34:51 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: JTAS
on 9/2/01 3:52 pm, Colin Paddock at su_liam@ordata.com wrote:
> I have been trying to subscribe to JTAS for the last couple of days, but
> the sjgames site seems to time me out before sending me the entire
> subscription agreement. I'm not too concerned about the content of the
> agreement, but I can't subscribe until they've sent the entire thing to me!
> My question for people who are already on JTAS is this: Is the magazine
> itself as glacially slow as the subscription site? I would like to know if I
> can actually get access to the material I'm paying for before plunking down
> ggod cash. Poverty makes a man cheap!
No, the magazine is on a nice quick server that doesn't appear loaded. I had
some troubles with Mac IE5 cookie stuff when doing a password change for
Pyramid (the SJG mainstream magazine), but resolved the timeouts by
switching to another browser (Netscape 4). There's some fundamental error in
the site (which I reported to their webmaster) - it's not related to traffic
or load.
> X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express Macintosh Edition - 4.5 (0410)
I notice that you're using a Mac too. Try a (less standards compliant)
browser like the old Netscape for signing up or changing password.
I can otherwise use IE5 without problems.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 19:40:29 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bandwidth Jealosy )wasRE:JTAS)
on 9/2/01 5:05 pm, Jones, Dean at Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com wrote:
> </Green eyes>
>
> Huh, it's alright for some
>
> </Green eyes>
>
> Dean
Bill Gates did say that the limiting factor for e-business in Europe was the
diabolical speed of general net access. The percentage of folk with quick
connections in the UK is far smaller than the US, even in metropolitan
areas. Good job I'm planning to escape to the US very soon. Might even be in
Philly by next month. :)
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 19:50:10 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Rio (Was: More landgrab info)
on 9/2/01 7:25 pm, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:
> Hans,
>
> Have you 'landgrabbed' Rio yet?
I think it was William that wanted to grab Rio. If Hans grabbed all the
worlds he knew more about than the rest of us, there would be nothing left,
and he'd have a lot of writing to do. :)
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:00:31 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
on 9/2/01 10:45 am, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:
> We have a tradition of trying to make each other laugh hard enough to expel
> whatever liquid one has been drink onto the keyboard. The traditional
> expression of "that was so damn funny I nearly died" is simply "keyboard
> kill."
Ah, the light dawns. :)
> I have several, including the day I got five people with one post.
Do you get more points if somebody trashes an expensive laptop or
workstation keyboard?
Gordon.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3627
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3628
Date: | 2/9/01 12:43:15 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, February 9 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3628
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
HEPlaR and Thruster Plates
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3618
Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
RE: Anti-RPG
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: HEPlaR and Thruster Plates
General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
Re: Islands clusters
Re: Bandwidth Jealosy )wasRE:JTAS)
Re: John Groth, are you still recording? another keyboard kill
Re: Islands clusters
Re: [FILK] a first and two lasts.
Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:05:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: HEPlaR and Thruster Plates
I've been building an Interstellar Wars Sourcebook for use with the TNE
rules (hence all the Interstellar Wars posts lately). In the
MegaTraveller Referee's Companion it gives approximate dates for
Terra's acheivement of certain tech levels.
HEPlaR is first available at TL 10, which the Terrans achieved c. 2110
on the eve of the outbreak of the First Interstellar War.
I will be including Thruster Plates in MTU eventually -- based upon a
nascent theory about the nature of gravity that I read a few days back
- -- but I'm not letting them exist until TL18 (that way I don't screw up
all the work I've put into MTU). Canon-wise, thruster plates are
available at TL11, which the Terrans achieved around 2120, or about 10
years after HEPlaR.
I hope this helps some.
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" — Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1
**********************************************************************************************
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:06:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
On Sat, 10 Feb 2001, Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> > I've always taken a short description of the proper spheres of science and
> > religion to be
> >
> > "Science asks what the universe is. Religion asks why."
>
> Nope.
> Philosophy asks why.
> Religion tells you to stop asking awkward questions and just have faith.
actually, that's just some religions. Zen Buddhists deal with awkward
questions all day long sometimes.
(I'm not Zen, but in general, Buddhism is sympathetic to awkward
questions... except maybe for the Nichiren, who seem to be of the "just
shut up and chant" school.)
This is what comes of the tendency to equate all religions with
Christianity (which does, no matter how much some Christians don't like to
hear this, have a tendency to frown on asking too many questions, esp. of
God himself. Some variants of the Christian God make marine drill
sergeants look question-friendly.)
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 11:58:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
In mail you write:
> What happens in canon to a ship that is already in jumpspace if ...
>
> 1.) ... external stores (ie. items attached to hull) are jettisoned?
As I recall, they disappear when they hit the edge of the "jump bubble.
I recall a comment to the effect that they precipitate back into normal
space as random particles along the course line of the ship.
> 2.) ... the jump drive is turned off?
The drive *is* off once you enter jump. All the power, fuel, etc is
used to push you into jumpspace, create the jump bubble and give you
the "vector" that causes you to drop back into normal space a week
(more or less) later at the point you were aiming at (give or take a
bit).
> 3.) ... the flow of power (or fuel) to the jump engines is reduced?
See above. You can tear down the drive once you've entered jump and it
won't make a bit of difference.
> 4.) ... the jump volume of the ship is increased by inflating a
> balloon inside a cargo mesh?
Anything that tries to go past the edge of the field goes away.
> 5.) ... an attached ship with its own jump drive tries to use it?
No ship that has attempted this has ever been heard from again. <eg>
> (BTW, could two attached jump ships synchronize their drives and
> jump as one?)
Good question.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:04:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3618
In mail you write:
>> Thank you very much. I'm now stuck with an image in my head of a
>> female Vargr running along a beach in slow mo ... snout open,
>> tongue lolling from side to side with the paces, and ... how many
>> bikini tops?!?!?!?!
>
> Three.
Would one of the artists on the TML *please* do this pic? Pretty please?
I've got a few anthropomorphics fen I want to hand a reality check.<eg>
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 15:14:55 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
>Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:00:31 +0000
>From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
>Subject: Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
>
>on 9/2/01 10:45 am, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > We have a tradition of trying to make each other laugh hard enough to expel
> > whatever liquid one has been drink onto the keyboard. The traditional
> > expression of "that was so damn funny I nearly died" is simply "keyboard
> > kill."
>
>Ah, the light dawns. :)
>
> > I have several, including the day I got five people with one post.
>
>Do you get more points if somebody trashes an expensive laptop or
>workstation keyboard?
>
>Gordon.
>
>------------------------------
There was one time where, a little to the left, my head a few degrees to
the right, and someone would have chalked up a server room kill. =)
John, I wish you the best of luck over there, and best wishes for a speedy
and safe return amidst a 'mission complete.'
Since nobody else has stepped up to the plate, I should put my money where
my mouth is and volunteer to be keyboard-kill keeper, unless there are any
objections (in which case, you're more than welcome to take it over instead. =)
Cheers
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 09:32:29 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
John Snead wrote :
> "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:
> > Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> > > I've always taken a short description of the proper spheres of
> > > science and religion to be
> > >
> > > "Science asks what the universe is. Religion asks why."
> >
> > Nope.
> > Philosophy asks why.
> > Religion tells you to stop asking awkward questions and just have
> > faith.
>
> Militant atheism is no more appealing, polite, or defensible than
> any other form of religious fundamentalism.
And how is that comment related to what I wrote ?
Philosophy _is_ the branch of study that investigates the why of things.
Of course, there is no reason why religious people can't also be
philosophers.
And are you seriously suggesting that there is a religion out there doesn't
tell you to stop asking awkward questions and just have faith at some point
?
Isn't the faith component the whole _point_ of a religion ?
And how is either statement related to atheism, militant or otherwise?
BTW, it was a Jesuit who originally said that, not me.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:19:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:
>
> > Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> > > I've always taken a short description of the proper spheres of
> > > science and religion to be
> > >
> > > "Science asks what the universe is. Religion asks why."
> >
> > Nope.
> > Philosophy asks why.
> > Religion tells you to stop asking awkward questions and just have
> > faith.
>
> Militant atheism is no more appealing, polite, or defensible than
> any other form of religious fundamentalism.
Ah, but how are you defining militant atheism?
If you define militant atheists as people who go around getting in other
people's faces and telling them not to believe in any gods, acting exactly
like those who holler at you that you are going to hell if you don't, then
I agree with you.
If you define militant atheists as those who would prevent members of the
proselytizing faiths from doing this, then I have a problem with that
statement. I don't care if your religion tells you to go out and tell
other people the "good news" or whatever else you want to call it, I have
the RIGHT to not listen and to not be harassed about not listening. Nor
do I wish to have my pocket picked by having money that I have paid as
taxes for the purposes of public education, welfare, etc. used to pay
people to preach to the homeless before feeding them or to educate
children in creationism by the means of vouchers for religious schools, or
to tell people not to have sex, ever, unless they are married, instead of
providing the AIDS/contraception education I thought I was paying for.
For these and other beliefs, I've been branded a militant atheist when in
fact I am nothing of the sort. I happen to be very religious, but
absolutely not Christian, and am aware of the public outcry that would
result were I to attempt to force my religion on others the way that some
Christians do, or even worse, to attempt to make others pay for my doing
so, either by doing it in publicly-paid for places or by asking for public
funds with which to do it.
Those who defend the rights of persons to use publicly paid for places
without being subject to harassment by members of religions to which they
do not belong-- or the rights of persons not to have their tax dollars
spent to promote religions to which they do not belong, such as with
school vouchers-- are not "militant atheists".
They are merely defending the right of other people to not be bothered
with, or choose to pay for, your religion unless they choose to. They
may not be atheists.
They may even be devout people who don't wish to see their own religion
lose even more credibility with society on account of its members acting
in a rude and idiotic manner. Most of the members of Americans United for
Separation of Church and State are religious people, and the majority of
them are Christian.
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:29:17 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: HEPlaR and Thruster Plates
On Friday, February 09, 2001 12:05 PM
Gerry Harris said,
> HEPlaR is first available at TL 10, which the Terrans achieved c. 2110
> on the eve of the outbreak of the First Interstellar War.
D'oh! I forgot to relate by tech level.
Bad Gordon!
Thanks
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Minion of SheChemist and GothBunny
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
===========================
"I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of
tyranny over the mind of man." -Thomas Jefferson
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:24:58 -0500 (EST)
From: "Richard J. Pugh" <rjpugh@patriot.net>
Subject: General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
I have a very general question about jumping. This question probably
falls into the "Well, DUH!!!" category, so go easy on me. My knowledge of
the Traveller universe mechanics is spotty, and I'm working to correct
that.
A ship's hyperdrive is measured in terms of "jump" performance (jump-1
through jump-6). Do those numbers refer to range, or velocity?
If it's range, can a jump-1 ship make *only* short jumps of 3.2 ly or
less? If a target system is more than 4 ly away, you're hosed.
Or, does jump performance refer to velocity? For example, take a jump
that is 3 parsecs in length. An Empress Marva far trader can make that
trip in eleven days or so, because it has "jump 2" drive. That same trip
would take a Type F "Beowulf" trader around twenty-one days (three weeks),
because it has only a "jump 1" drive.
I'm hoping it's the later case; much easier for me to work with. I'm in
the early stages of designing a campaign; this will have a profound effect
on what kind of ship my PC's will be working on. The campaign will be set
in and around Reaver's Deep; stars aren't exactly close together over
there, so the range of a given ship is important.
Thanks for humoring me.
Richard Pugh
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:27:41 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands clusters
Hans,
Thanks for posting me back so quickly! This thread is a lot of fun,
don't you think?
Okay, time to return your serve, hmmm......
"Look at DGPs jump fuel ruling in MT for instance."
They decided that all of a ship's jump fuel load was used for jump,
regardless of the length of that jump. So a ship with a jump-4 drive that
jumped only 2 parsecs would use it's fuel as if it had jumped 4 parsecs.
And this AFTER they'd published the article on "Project Blackheart". Boy,
was there screaming about that one.
Eventually, they backed off a bit and came up with some formula to
calculate fuel use depending on both jump distance and jump drive rating. I
don't remember the exact numbers, but the jump-4 ship mentioned above could
now jump 1+2 parsecs before refueling, but still not 2+2.
"I evidently see the Imperium as being a good deal less insular than
you do. What in the world difference does it make what species someone is if
he is loyal to the Imperium?"
I don't see the Imperium as insular either, they're not Sollies after
all. Didn't they even change the flag so a new minor race could see it?
But I do think they'd be pragmatic. I can't quite grasp how they could be
fighting a species in one sector while also using the same species as
colonization partners and supports in an adjacent sector.
There is a mixed "humano-Vargr" society in the Antares area because
that's what the Imperium absorbed there. But, do we see a similar mixed
society in Lishun, Vland, Corridor, Deneb, or the Marches? Those areas
border the Vargr extants too, but none of the canon material I've seen shows
any mixed societies. The DGP maps pretty much listed "minority" species as
part of a system's UPP. Any significant Vargr numbers in their map of
Deneb?
"In any case, I don't intend to introduce any Vargr world with
starfaring capability at that time, so the point is entirely moot."
Well, they got there somehow and, even if they can no longer build
their own space craft, the Imperium would be foolish not to keep an eye on
them. All it would was one corsair visiting the world and getting word back
to his pack mates in the Extants. The Imperium would find a big nasty tumor
of Vargr piracy growing right inside it's borders. The very thing that
they're fighting for over 100 years in the Corridor.
"I don't see the problem. Any Vargr would defend its home world against
attack in much the same way a human would."
A single Vargr may be loyal to anything, a group of Vargr are loyal to
nothing. Why defend your world if turning coat means the fighting will
bypass you? During the opening moves of each war, the Vargr may prove
steadfast, but what about when the Zho seige is in it's 2nd year? Or after
the "loyal" Vargr realize they risk death, dismemberment, or property loss
if they resist further? The situation is made to order for their fickle,
volatile natures to undergo a flip-flop. They'd hand over the keys in a
heartbeat. It's hardwired into them.
Jewell has remained a rock throughout five wars and for over five
centuries. Any substantial Vargr minority population there would be an
enormous security risk. Vargr enclaves on world could welcome Zho invasiion
forces and delay Imperial defenders. Even small numbers of Vargr deciding
to switch sides could raise havoc. Think about having 10% of your SDB force
turn tail and run, or even join the other side.
It would make Imperial planners wake up in a cold sweat.
I brought up the wars to support my theory that the Imperium was a
vibrant, thrusting society prior to the Civil War era. The Imperium flet
they could accomplish anything. During each, they marshalled significant
forces.
The Corridor - It could have been fought to protect trade. Who were they
trading with? Partially developed worlds full of refugees from the 1st
Empire or RoM? 3I colonies? Both? If it was just waged to create a bridge
of strongpoints for shipping to jump between, why doesn't the Corridor map
so a majority of non-aligned, Vargr populated worlds surrounding a well
fortified jump-3 path of Imperial garrisons? Where did all those human
settlers come from and how did they get ahold of those worlds?
The Julian War - Exactly as you described it, but forcing well established
worlds with their own fleets and armies to join the Imperium takes some
muscle. Remember, the 3I was winning until they lost to a strategic gamble
on the part of the nascent Julian Protectorate. The 3I cut it's losses
sure, but they also absorbed a big chunk of real estate too.
Aslna Border Wars - This one was fought for a couple of reasons; to set a
firm boundry with the Aslan and to impress the independent human polities in
the area. Both sides had been fighting through out the Long Night and
neither side could prevail. The Aslan were hampered by their clan-based
structure, the humans by the small size of their polities. The 3I shows up,
fights and beats enough of the Aslan clans to force them to recognize the
DMZ, and suitably impresses to local human systems to join up. just forcing
the land hungry Aslan to respect a no settlement zone was some
accomplishment. Norris and the Regencey should be so lucky.
Ilelish Rebellion - MT covered this one in their sourcebook to show how
Lucan screwed the pooch with his response to a later rebellion. The affair
lasted years with the Imperium applying deliberate displays of overwhelming
force to avoid costly battles. At first the Imperium simply gathered forces
and sealed off the subsector sized area. Then they moved in slowly,
overawing each rebellious system in turn while maintaining the blockade.
Fianlly, they accepted Ilelish's surrender, then EVACUATED the entire
population and scrubbed the planet's equatorial region free of life. Care
to guess how many ship's the 3I used during all phases of this "mere"
rebellion? And while still guarding the frontiers?
The Chanestins - The 3I was still bedeviled by something in the Core sector
early in it's existence. Why was there any need for a pacification campaign
there? Why were the early Imperial palaces fortifed?
"Now, how much did you say such a ship cost?"
About 1400 MCr at TL 12.
"Divide that by 3,500 and you get the cost to move a colonist one
subsector."
Not exactly, once the ship's are built, all they have to be is
maintained. I don't exactly see a ship setting our from Daibei and
travelling al the way to Deneb with a load of colonists. I do see
corpsicles and the 1.5dT allotment being handled like frieght though.
Passed from shipper to shipper unitl they arrive at the IISS colony staging
base a couple of years after they froze out. Might this be the merchant
traffic we're fighting to defend in the Corridor?
"The question is, why would they spend all that money to get rid of a
tiny fraction of a percent of their population?"
Prestige? Pride in joining the Imperial mission? There's very good
economic evidence that the colonies the European powers scrambled for during
the 19th century never paid for themselves, so why did they do it?
"Isn't there a canon description of a Marches system being developed
for colonization..."
"There is indeed. Forboldn. I've actually written it up for PYRAMID."
I'd love to read that article! Would you have a copy on hand?
"The primary goal of the Ministry of Colonization is not to export
people form the core, it is to create a sound, moderately powerful, loyal
system in the Marches."
Well, exporting people is one way and handing out baby bonuses to
ensure large families is another. Couldn't both be used? If there are
large pre-existing colonies in Deneb and the Marches, would the 3I view
people who's ancestors fled it's two predecessors as potentially loyal or as
something that should be watched. The Romans absorbed many previously
settled areas, but they always set up their own colonies to keep and eye on
things.
If there were a large number of refugee colonies in Deneb, why di the
future Sword Worlders go so far into the "bush"? Wouldn't it ahve been more
economical to join a world already settled? Same question hold for the
Turkish corporation that traveled all the way to Darrian, why so far if
there were other human worlds who just as eagerly embrace the corporation's
technology as the Darrian's did?
"The child of an Imperial marcher is just as loyal as someone shipped
in from some other world. Propably more."
Very true. Canon materials even speak of that. Of course the fellow
shipped in from another world is a loyal Imperial too.
"Getting rid of malcontents and misfits have benefits in itself, but
sheer export is worthless. You can't relieve population
pressures worth a damn, and you get no benefit from your colonies unless
they are cloes enough for you to control. Remember, the Imperium discourages
multi-world member states."
I don't see colonization as shipping out misfits, malcontents, and
petty criminals. I'm suggesting the Imperium colonizes via the "australian
method". I see colonists as people who want to join the adventure, who want
their own land, who want the social freedom a new world will provide their
children, who have wanderlust.
Colonization is an Imperial mission, not that of it's member worlds.
Creating and founding new loyal worlds for the Imperium is not worthless.
Those worlds will grow to become productive members of the Imperium. Babies
are worthless too, in the short run. But the short run doesn't stop us from
having them.
I agree that you can't relieve overpopulation by emigration.
Population pressure on member worlds is handled by other means. Perhaps a
viral contraceptive based on the common cold...
"Because it increases the cost of fuel considerably and is thus not
interesting except for very special occasions."
Then why is a one-lung outfit like Arekut doing running a deep space
fuel cache in a backwater like Aramis? The March Harrier crew and their
employers plan on hijacking a ship a day for two weeks. Why so much traffic
if the benefits don't outway the costs? Or is it some megacorp tax dodge?
Well, that's it from me. Can't wait for you to shred it! Get
cracking, pal!
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:34:22 -0500
From: "James Fleming" <blackjack@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Bandwidth Jealosy )wasRE:JTAS)
Hey,
If you're gonna be in Philly, email me. I grew up in and currently live in
the area. I can point you to some FLGS's and other forms of entertainment.
Jim Fleming
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 2:40 PM
Subject: Re: Bandwidth Jealosy )wasRE:JTAS)
: on 9/2/01 5:05 pm, Jones, Dean at Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com wrote:
:
: > </Green eyes>
: >
: > Huh, it's alright for some
: >
: > </Green eyes>
: >
: > Dean
:
: Bill Gates did say that the limiting factor for e-business in Europe was
the
: diabolical speed of general net access. The percentage of folk with quick
: connections in the UK is far smaller than the US, even in metropolitan
: areas. Good job I'm planning to escape to the US very soon. Might even be
in
: Philly by next month. :)
:
: Gordon.
:
:
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 14:40:44 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: John Groth, are you still recording? another keyboard kill
Glenn Goffin wrote:
>
> Woo-hoo! On my way to acedom! I hope John Groth is still checking his
> email to record this one!
I am. I won't be unsubscribing until late next week. And I did archive
this kill.
This weekend, I'll try to post a list of current aces.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:46:17 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Islands clusters
On Friday, February 09, 2001 12:27 PM
Larsen E. Whipsnade said,
> I don't see the Imperium as insular either, they're not Sollies after
> all. Didn't they even change the flag so a new minor race could see it?
> But I do think they'd be pragmatic. I can't quite grasp how they could be
> fighting a species in one sector while also using the same species as
> colonization partners and supports in an adjacent sector.
That attitude seems to be assuming alliances along species lines rather than
sworn loyalties to the polity. Much like when the US assumed people of
Japanese decent would be working for the Japanese in WWII (greatly
simplified and partially wrong, I know.).
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Minion of SheChemist and GothBunny
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
===========================
"If the present Congress errs in too much talking, how can it be otherwise,
in a body to which the people send one hundred and fifty lawyers, whose
trade it is to question everything, yield nothing, and talk by the hour?
That one hundred and fifty lawyers should do business together, ought not to
be expected." -Thomas Jefferson
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:07:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [FILK] a first and two lasts.
In mail you write:
> Came back again after all, but just long enough for this.
>
> Presumably the first Trav tune to have Vilani lyrics, and my money
> says the last, too.
>
> Adios, y'all--
>
> Near-c Rocks (with mad props to the Clash)
>
> Near-c rocks 'n debates for the ego
> And loopholes open in the dear old canon
> Oh, please, help the TML get it
> Now that GDW's dead and gone
> Flaming posts from the digest list
> The wank fests for the right answer
> Near-c rocks are just hard sci-fi
> I'm wearing out my delete key again
>
> CHORUS:
> Near-c rocks, kishbasaazu megesuppu
> Kishmugshizu, kha du shekigun
> Near-c rocks, kishbasaazu megesuppu
> Kishmugshizu, kha du shekigun
I've got *no* idea what the tune to this is. Nor how to pronounce the
Vilani. Any chance of a WAV file on your web site? :-)
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:09:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
In mail you write:
>>>What is the first date for deep space refuelling after the Rule of Man
>>>and Long Night. If there is no canonical data for deep space refuelling
>>>could this then explain the failure of the 3rd Imperium to reach the
>>>Islands?
Deep space refueling was used for the *first* terran interstelar
expedition to use jump drive.
Remember, they only had J1 drives, and there are *no* stars within J1
of Sol.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 18:55:24 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
At 12:14 -0500 7/2/01, "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
><minor nit>
> > To anyone under the mistaken belief that Boing had *anything* to do with
>the
>it's Boeing
></minor nit>
>Unless that was intentional.
I know several people who work at a 'major European rival' to that
company in Seattle who insist it should be called 'boing'.
Dom
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3628
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3629
Date: | 2/9/01 1:25:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, February 9 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3629
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
RE: Boing
Re: [TML] !!Request!!
Re: General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
Re: General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
Re: General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
Re: General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
Re: Islands
RE: Boing
Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
Re: Hostile Environment Power Req'ts
RE: Boing
Re: [TML] !!Request!!
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3627
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 14:45:59 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
>
> At 10:48 PM 2/7/2001 -0600, you wrote:
> >In the next week or so, I will be mobilized to serve in the fifth year
> >of the one-year peacekeeping mission in the Balkans.
>
> Johm since you are not combat arms, I'll give you our most treasureed secret.
>
> The end of the rifle with the little hole in it goes towards the enemy.
You mean that little drainage plug on the butt of the rifle? ;-)
>
> Happy to help. :)
>
> Take care of yourself, and we'll have a drink for you at BayCon. Send me
> your snail mail and I'll make sure that you get some morale boosters over
> there.
I appreciate everyone's support and well wishes.
BTW, since I will have at least some Internet access, AuricTech
Shipyards will still be able to produce custom designs. You'll be able
to reach me at:
aurictech@esweeet.com
I also intend to subscribe to the TML digest at that address, so you
won't be completely rid of me! ;-)
Also, I'm boxing up my Traveller stuff for shipping, so that my parents
can send it to me as soon as I find out my snail-mail address over
there.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:24:25 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
At 21:44 -0500 7/2/01, "James Jensen" <cheeb0@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Let's start this argument on a fairly inarguable ground:
No, let's not start this argument.
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:35:45 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Boing
At 12:29 -0500 8/2/01, "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com> wrote:
>I think you'll have to fight Cisco for it. You wouldn't be able to BUILD
>anything post-70's without network infrastructure ;)
>
>"We are Cisco of Borg. You will be assimilated. We will add your distinct
>functionality to our own."
Even if you're a computer geek you've still got to eat ;-) I'd push
Unilever or (our dreaded rival) P&G or Nestle as a possible future
megacorp. They/we all have global operations
(multi-local/multinational), and products can be as high as 30-40% of
a supermarket shelves.
>Scary thought: Cisco averaged something like 2 acquisitions per week last
>year, IIRC from the last company-wide meeting.
Unilever only did 19, but one made it the biggest food producer in the world.
Admittedly P&G and Unilever's deodorant and personal wash brands
mightn't do as well in the gaming sector based on con experience...
<grin, duck and run>
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:40:09 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] !!Request!!
At 13:30 -0500 8/2/01, Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Ahhh, the Corsair... Ergh, sorry for the delay in noting this, Jesse, but
>the only EXTERNAL picture I know of is a Kieth-drawn stern-quarter view
>image in Megatraveller. And my books are home right now. ISTR that the
>deckplan and the shillouette follow it pretty closely, however.
I've vague recollections that the 'Letter of Marque' book (reprinted
in the lost supplements) had some silhouettes of a corsair design.
Unfortunately my copy is in safety at the moment. Can anyone check
this?
I can't remember any other corsairs in Traveller
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:43:48
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
The jump number refers to the number of parsecs (3.2 light years) traveled.
Each parasec is one hex on a standard 2D map. Every jump regardless of the
distance takes one week.
A mirco jump is one that is less than 3.2 year years can be performed as
well. It takes one week as well. This is often used to travel to the Oort
cloud of a system.
Mike
- ----Original Message Follows----
From: "Richard J. Pugh" <rjpugh@patriot.net>
Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Subject: General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:24:58 -0500 (EST)
I have a very general question about jumping. This question probably
falls into the "Well, DUH!!!" category, so go easy on me. My knowledge of
the Traveller universe mechanics is spotty, and I'm working to correct
that.
A ship's hyperdrive is measured in terms of "jump" performance (jump-1
through jump-6). Do those numbers refer to range, or velocity?
If it's range, can a jump-1 ship make *only* short jumps of 3.2 ly or
less? If a target system is more than 4 ly away, you're hosed.
Or, does jump performance refer to velocity? For example, take a jump
that is 3 parsecs in length. An Empress Marva far trader can make that
trip in eleven days or so, because it has "jump 2" drive. That same trip
would take a Type F "Beowulf" trader around twenty-one days (three weeks),
because it has only a "jump 1" drive.
I'm hoping it's the later case; much easier for me to work with. I'm in
the early stages of designing a campaign; this will have a profound effect
on what kind of ship my PC's will be working on. The campaign will be set
in and around Reaver's Deep; stars aren't exactly close together over
there, so the range of a given ship is important.
Thanks for humoring me.
Richard Pugh
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:46:08 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
>From: "Richard J. Pugh" <rjpugh@patriot.net>
"Or, does jump performance refer to velocity? For example, take a jump
that is 3 parsecs in length. An Empress Marva far trader can make that trip
in eleven days or so, because it has "jump 2" drive. That same trip would
take a Type F "Beowulf" trader around twenty-one days (three weeks),because
it has only a "jump 1" drive."
Rich.
A jump takes roughly a week, 168 hours +/- 10%, per jump. Your far
trader would take 2 weeks to cover 3 parsecs; one 2 parsec hop and one 1
parsec hop, plus the time of refueling between.
The free trader would tak three weeks, plus refueling times.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:11:02 -0800
From: "Dave Strebe" <strebe@intergate.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
A quick answer would be the jump drive is 'Range' related and not
'velocity' related.
So as far as I know you can jump any where up to the range set by the Jump
Drive
therefore a jump-1 , jump-2 or jump-3 could all be set to jump say 1
light-year
all three would take approximately the same time 1 week to accomplish the
jump.
Now the jump-2 could have jumped 2 parsecs and the jump-3 jumped 3 parsecs
in the same amount of time(approx. 1 week)
Dave
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard J. Pugh" <rjpugh@patriot.net>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 12:24 PM
Subject: General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
>
> I have a very general question about jumping. This question probably
> falls into the "Well, DUH!!!" category, so go easy on me. My knowledge of
> the Traveller universe mechanics is spotty, and I'm working to correct
> that.
>
> A ship's hyperdrive is measured in terms of "jump" performance (jump-1
> through jump-6). Do those numbers refer to range, or velocity?
>
> If it's range, can a jump-1 ship make *only* short jumps of 3.2 ly or
> less? If a target system is more than 4 ly away, you're hosed.
>
> Or, does jump performance refer to velocity? For example, take a jump
> that is 3 parsecs in length. An Empress Marva far trader can make that
> trip in eleven days or so, because it has "jump 2" drive. That same trip
> would take a Type F "Beowulf" trader around twenty-one days (three weeks),
> because it has only a "jump 1" drive.
>
> I'm hoping it's the later case; much easier for me to work with. I'm in
> the early stages of designing a campaign; this will have a profound effect
> on what kind of ship my PC's will be working on. The campaign will be set
> in and around Reaver's Deep; stars aren't exactly close together over
> there, so the range of a given ship is important.
>
> Thanks for humoring me.
>
>
> Richard Pugh
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 14:56:54 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
Gordon Hundley wrote:
>
<<snip>>
>
> Do you get more points if somebody trashes an expensive laptop or
> workstation keyboard?
>
Nope. A kill's a kill, regardless of size or expense of the machine in
question.
This is based on my reading of WW II practice, where a heavy bomber
counted as no more and no less of a kill than a light observation
floatplane.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 15:03:35 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
"Richard J. Pugh" wrote:
>
> I have a very general question about jumping. This question probably
> falls into the "Well, DUH!!!" category, so go easy on me. My knowledge of
> the Traveller universe mechanics is spotty, and I'm working to correct
> that.
>
> A ship's hyperdrive is measured in terms of "jump" performance (jump-1
> through jump-6). Do those numbers refer to range, or velocity?
>
> If it's range, can a jump-1 ship make *only* short jumps of 3.2 ly or
> less? If a target system is more than 4 ly away, you're hosed.
>
> Or, does jump performance refer to velocity? For example, take a jump
> that is 3 parsecs in length. An Empress Marva far trader can make that
> trip in eleven days or so, because it has "jump 2" drive. That same trip
> would take a Type F "Beowulf" trader around twenty-one days (three weeks),
> because it has only a "jump 1" drive.
Jump performance refers to range. A J-1 ship cannot travel two or more
parsecs in a single jump (except for misjumps).
However, a _Beowulf_-class Free Trader can travel two or more parsecs
without refueling by mounting extra fuel tankage in the cargo bay (20
dtons per extra jump), and making two or more jumps (at one week per
jump).
As an aside, what rules system are you using for ship design? If it's
High Guard or T4's FF&S2, AuricTech Shipyards will be glad to provide
ship design assistance.
<<snip>>
Fianlly, since you included the "newbie alert" in your post's subject,
here's your newbie essay assignment:
Discuss the impact of cheap fusion power on traditional "economics of
scarcity."
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 21:02:46 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands
>From: Christopher Thrash <thrash@io.com>
"How long did it take Eldorado to effect repairs?
Most likely less than a year: there is not a separate entry in the
timeline. Certainly less than three years, however:
"5501 Imperial Strike Cruiser Eldorado misjumps into Clusters...
"5504 Serendip Belt starship C-Breaker makes first jump"
Adv. 5, p. 43
Chris,
Thanks for getting back to me so quickly with this info.
So, the Serendips really got cracking on copying the technology they
saw, huh? Maybe they had some shadow project going, siphoning what secrets
and tech info they could from the Eldorado crew and the locals assisting
them. Just like the Soviet A-bomb program with Fuchs and the Rosnebergs
working on the inside. Every time a part was delivered to Eldorado, a
duplicate one made at the same facility was shipped to the Serendip project.
Sounds like a great adventure seed.
With "C-breaker" operational so early, the Serendips could get their
testing done, go into serial prodcution, and still have 20+ years to start
empire building. Busy little belters indeed!
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:45:05 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Boing
At 15:09 -0500 8/2/01, "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
>Hmmm.. that makes eight people I know who work at cisco, and you are the
>only one who isn't named Dave. There are so many Dave's in local fandom
>that they now great each other in this way:
>
>"You are Dave."
>
>"You are Dave."
>
>"Together, we are.. DAVE."
Jesse, just to avoid confusion, we'll call you 'Dave'. ;-)
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:49:30 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
At 17:20 -0500 8/2/01, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote:
>John Groth wrote:
> > In the next week or so, I will be mobilized to serve in the fifth year
> > of the one-year peacekeeping mission in the Balkans.
>Hey John, good luck.
>Something I've not heard said a lot, but you folks _are_ doing good over
>there.
>Yes it's been a five year long 'one-year mission' but they _haven't_
>been running each other into mass graves again, either.
>Keeping peace is a very important mission, and you all deserve great
>recognition for a difficult task.
Seconded; my brother in law was there four years ago, and has always
said it was worthwhile.
Hoping to see you back soon.
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 22:08:41 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Hostile Environment Power Req'ts
Michael Daumen wrote:
> How much output of a power plant (% wise, not in absolute numbers) would
> y'all say goes to provide artificial gravity and life support to an orbital
> facility or sealed habitat on a zero-G world? Or a ship for that matter?
> Is there some definite canon material on this?
That would depend a lot on the facility and what the power plant runs
when at 100%. If the power plant only runs life support, gravity, and
ceiling lights, about 99% would be needed. If it originally runs an
automated mining facility, I doubt you would need even as much as 1%.
"Fire Fusion & Steel" deals with technological design of all kinds. You
could design the facility using those rules. That would give you the
numbers you require.
Or, you could just say wing it. Chances are that the remaining power
plant output is just enough to keep the critical systems running, but
not for long... ;-)
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:13:16 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Boing
My Father's name was David ;)
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Dominic Mooney
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 12:45 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: RE: Boing
>
>
> At 15:09 -0500 8/2/01, "Douglas E. Berry"
> <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
> >Hmmm.. that makes eight people I know who work at cisco, and you are the
> >only one who isn't named Dave. There are so many Dave's in local fandom
> >that they now great each other in this way:
> >
> >"You are Dave."
> >
> >"You are Dave."
> >
> >"Together, we are.. DAVE."
>
> Jesse, just to avoid confusion, we'll call you 'Dave'. ;-)
>
> Dom
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:18:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] !!Request!!
Starship Operators Manual has a silouhette view of the Corsair, along
with several other vessels.
- --- Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> At 13:30 -0500 8/2/01, Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
> wrote:
> >Ahhh, the Corsair... Ergh, sorry for the delay in noting this,
> Jesse, but
> >the only EXTERNAL picture I know of is a Kieth-drawn stern-quarter
> view
> >image in Megatraveller. And my books are home right now. ISTR that
> the
> >deckplan and the shillouette follow it pretty closely, however.
>
> I've vague recollections that the 'Letter of Marque' book (reprinted
> in the lost supplements) had some silhouettes of a corsair design.
> Unfortunately my copy is in safety at the moment. Can anyone check
> this?
>
> I can't remember any other corsairs in Traveller
>
> Dom
>
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
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**********************************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:18:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
On Sat, 10 Feb 2001, Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> Philosophy _is_ the branch of study that investigates the why of things.
> Of course, there is no reason why religious people can't also be
> philosophers.
>
> And are you seriously suggesting that there is a religion out there doesn't
> tell you to stop asking awkward questions and just have faith at some point
> ?
He may not be, but I am.
Asking awkward questions is one of the things you are SUPPOSED to do in
some religions. Zen Buddhism comes to mind, and then there are the Jews,
who love to ask each other awkward questions about the Law.
> Isn't the faith component the whole _point_ of a religion ?
No. It's only the point of Christianity and Islam, to my knowledge.
The concept of "faith" doesn't really exist in Shinto. The kami don't
care whether you believe in them or not.
Neither do the loa of Voudoun. One either serves them or one doesn't, but
believing in them is kind of immaterial.
Religions where the divine is immanent (present, right here and now, in
the world with us) don't generally take much stock in belief.
Nor is faith a big player in Buddhism.
One doesn't believe oneself into Enlightenment.
In fact, quite a few religions are very uninterested in creeds and
beliefs. I wouldn't imagine the Vilani religion to be terribly
belief-oriented.
Kiri ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 15:24:27 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
John Groth wrote:
>
> "Richard J. Pugh" wrote:
> >
<<snip>>
> >
> > Or, does jump performance refer to velocity? For example, take a jump
> > that is 3 parsecs in length. An Empress Marva far trader can make that
> > trip in eleven days or so, because it has "jump 2" drive. That same trip
> > would take a Type F "Beowulf" trader around twenty-one days (three weeks),
> > because it has only a "jump 1" drive.
>
> Jump performance refers to range. A J-1 ship cannot travel two or more
> parsecs in a single jump (except for misjumps).
>
> However, a _Beowulf_-class Free Trader can travel two or more parsecs
> without refueling by mounting extra fuel tankage in the cargo bay (20
> dtons per extra jump), and making two or more jumps (at one week per
> jump).
To elaborate further: In your example, a _Beowulf_-class Free Trader
would require approximately three weeks to travel three parsecs (three
1-parsec jumps), and would have 35.9 dtons of cargo space available
after subtracting 40 dtons for additional jump fuel (using the T4
version of the ship on page 102). OTOH, an _Empress Marava_-class Far
Trader could travel the same three parsecs in two weeks (one 2-parsec
jump and one 1-parsec jump), with 44.9 dtons of cargo space available
after subtracting 20 dtons for the additional jump fuel required for the
extra 1-parsec jump (again, using the T4 version of the ship on page
102). On the gripping hand, AuricTech Shipyards can design a 200-ton
trader (using either HG or FF&S2) capable of J-3 performance, which
could travel three parsecs in one week. Let me know. ;-)
>
> As an aside, what rules system are you using for ship design? If it's
> High Guard or T4's FF&S2, AuricTech Shipyards will be glad to provide
> ship design assistance.
Also, if you have access to _Fire, Fusion, and Steel_ [FF&S] (the
original edition for TNE), I'm given to understand that FF&S has rules
for a "stutterwarp" drive, which may suit your needs.
<<snip>>
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:20:21 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3627
In a message dated 09-Feb-01 2:03:10 PM Central Standard Time,
owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
> Johm since you are not combat arms, I'll give you our most treasureed
secret.
>
> The end of the rifle with the little hole in it goes towards the enemy.
>
It has always been a puzzle to me why they don't put labels on everything
like they do on claymore mines: "Front -- Toward Enemy"
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:26:49 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
Greenly, Jeff wrote:
> The primary role of the orbital facility IMTU is not habitation, but
> commerce, as I see it. I have designed a number of space habitats, but
> generally they are built into asteroids, because I think it's ridiculous to
> assume that the amount of labor and material needed to build something as
> massive as a 52 million dTon station is cost-effectively available.
I would expect it to accrete over decades or centuries as trade
develops, and more facilities are needed. Sure, it'd be expensive,
but with handling hundreds of thousands of dtons per week, it'd be
profitable too.
> The starport isn't a single facility, but lots of smaller facilities
> with crews that rotate Up and then back to the surface.
I agree with the "lots of smaller facilities", but I seriously doubt
that all the crews would rotate from the surface. Would you commute
50000 kilometres to work? It would be much cheaper and more
convenient to have long-term living quarters, both for employees and
for the employers. At least some of them will have families, and over
centuries there will be quite a substantial number of people living
there permanently.
> I don't design my starports like a Ports'o Call in space because I
> don't think merchants would want to set up shop in a tin can,
There will be starship crews wanting something to do in their
off-hours while their ship is undergoing maintenance. I'm certain
that someone will want to sell them something. At the very least,
there will be somewhere to buy food and drink, and somewhere to sleep.
For the station crew, if nothing else.
There will probably be at least some representative of every major
local shipping company on hand to handle negotiations, or deal with
problems as they arise. Together with support staff, plus goods and
services for all those employees to buy.
Then there will be places to buy or manufacture small items that the
big shipyards and machine shops don't deal with. Things like your
personal wrist computer that broke while loading cargo. Would you
prefer to go to the surface to have it repaired or replaced, or (at a
slightly higher price) do it locally?
There will almost certainly be plenty of orbit-to-surface transport
companies, and probably recreation operators getting a first chance at
pitching their services to passengers as soon as they get off the big
liners.
In short, I can't see how there *wouldn't* be lots of private
enterprise on such stations unless it was expressly prohibited.
> and I don't think people would want to permanently reside Up.
Why not? I would. It would only take 0.001% of the population of a
large world to think similarly and you've got amply enough people to
run the whole thing without shuttling huge numbers of people back and
forth all the time. Just simple maintenance and starship-to-shutttle
cargo transfer alone for large worlds would employ at least tens of
thousands of people. That a lot of people to shuttle back and forth.
> I actually prefer to put a lot more work into the downport, unless
> there's a reason not to.
Anyone who sets up shop at a highport gets the first chance at
offworld customers. A lot of services will be more suited to the
highports, like the business of actually getting people and goods to
the surface. Then there is the principle that people prefer to buy
stuff without having to travel 50000 km to get it, even if it costs
more. With probably a few hundred thousand people on the station at
any given time, that's a pretty big market to be ignored by every
potential merchant in the system.
> Loving the fact that I live in a town called Star City (no, really!)
Nifty :)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3629
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From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3630
Date: | 2/9/01 3:30:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, February 9 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3630
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: TL7 PCs with starships (was Re: Science Fiction)
instructions
Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
RE: Anti-RPG
RE: Anti-RPG
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: Hostile Environment Power Reqt's
Re: [TML] !!Request!!
RE: [TML] !!Request!!
RE: [TML] !!Request!!
Re: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
Re: General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
RE: [TML] !!Request!!
Re: [TML] !!Request!!
RE: [TML] !!Request!!
Re: General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
Re: [TML] !!Request!!
RE: [TML] !!Request!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 16:28:57 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: TL7 PCs with starships (was Re: Science Fiction)
On 8 Feb 2001, at 21:21, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > Are there post-1980 works of fiction or scientific
> > developments that influence your TU?
>
> Alas, *most* of these will lead to players asking "well if *that*
> works, why can't we do *this*?" and the ref not having a good answer
> because there *isn't* any rational reason why they can't.
>
> I watched folks take things like "jump capacitors" and turn out ships
> that were super weapons. I've *never* seen a bunch of RPGers who, given
> half a chance would exploit any technology (or "magic item" :-) to the
> absolute limit.
>
> Which is why I prefer to do my best to think thru the implications
> *before* introducing things. And why I prefer to stick to "real"
> science as much as possible. You get fewer conflicting answers that way.
I agree - having potential additions well thought-out beforehand is
important, though I admit my first reaction to things is not "how will
the players exploit this". If I'm comfortable with something after
putting it through a reality-wringer, then I'll think about specific
gaming aspects. And the TML is the best reality-wringer I know of...
:)
Rob D.
- --
Rob
'what did he say?'...'blessed are the geek, dear, blessed are the geek, I think'
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:32:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: instructions
On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 09-Feb-01 2:03:10 PM Central Standard Time,
> owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
>
> > Johm since you are not combat arms, I'll give you our most treasureed
> secret.
> >
> > The end of the rifle with the little hole in it goes towards the enemy.
> >
> It has always been a puzzle to me why they don't put labels on everything
> like they do on claymore mines: "Front -- Toward Enemy"
>
In Japan there are instructions on the top of soda cans.
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:28:57 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
>From: hal@buffnet.net
>Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
>
>Hello Larson,
>
>> IMHO deep space refueling is "doable" but not widespread because
>>ecenomic factors, the pinpoint jump navigation required, most ship's being
>>built without the capability in mind, and sheer social inertia coupled with
>>a set of mental blinders. The Imperials only think to do it when all other
>>possibilities are exhausted.
>
>I have a real problem with this explanation. Here is why:
It's the economic factors that are the killer.
Basically, deep space refuelling is expensive. Do the costs of building, and then securing, the deep
space depot (I can assure you that Oberlindes wouldnt be the only people who would think of
bushwhacking a deep depot). Do the cost of refuelling it, including the fuel needed for the tanker to
jump out (if you increase misjump chances for deep-space jumps to, say, 1 in 216 or so, to reflect the
pinpoint navigation requirements then it becomes even more uneconomic).
Then calculate the amount of revenue the ship needs to earn, to make an equivalent profit to doing
'normal' runs.
You might - might- be able to make money doing this on the Islands run, especially if you are taking
high-value military cargos (I guess they'd sell you cultural items in return. Think trading the Hermitage
Museum for a squadron of A10s in 1942).
<stuff snipped>
>I concur with your belief about "blinders" <grin>. Someone from the
>mailing list once pointed out the concept of using slow (or was it fast?)
>Drugs as a means of slowing down the metabolisms of humans for jump
>transit. At a 60:1 ratio of real time to perceived time, someone who is a
>passanger for 1 week's time would feel as if only 2.8 hours had passed.
>This drug could be used *instead* of low berths! It could also be required
>that all passengers take this drug as an anti-hijacking preventative <grin>.
Umm, yeah. This really, really screws the economics of the Imperium. Handwave bad reactions to
jumpspace for fast drug ...
Our resident medico (the esteemed Rob O'Connor) also pointed out that people with metabolisms that
slow need a fair amount of medical care to prevent hypothermia, Among other medical problems.
Once you write in a reasonable amount of medical overhead, you may as well keep em awake.
Especially if you ditch the Cr2000 per person per month 'life support charges'.
>
> All things considered, I suspect that a lot of "canon" material in
>Traveller is the result of oversights and lack of expertise and/or time to
>consider the implications. One of the reasons why I suspect that tech
>level increases are population level driven is because the more people you
>have working on a problem - sooner or later the problem will either be
>partially solved, or fully solved. The more people you have working on a
>problem, the more "blind alleys" are that can be explored and discarded
>until finally, the solution is wrinkled out.
I actually dont agree with this. Usually, the problems of development are not technical problems, but
are structural problems.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:47:20 -0800
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
Militant Athiest? Not you Kiri. Perhaps a Militant voice for Freedom of
Choice, but never atheism. It's my belief that atheism refers to those who
do not believe in *anything*. I'm a christian, but I would defend your
right or anyone else's to believe what you want to, in peace. Sometimes I
think churches must be magnets for the mentally insane. :)
- -----Original Message-----
If you define militant atheists as those who would prevent members of the
proselytizing faiths from doing this, then I have a problem with that
statement. I don't care if your religion tells you to go out and tell
other people the "good news" or whatever else you want to call it, I have
the RIGHT to not listen and to not be harassed about not listening. Nor
do I wish to have my pocket picked by having money that I have paid as
taxes for the purposes of public education, welfare, etc. used to pay
people to preach to the homeless before feeding them or to educate
children in creationism by the means of vouchers for religious schools, or
to tell people not to have sex, ever, unless they are married, instead of
providing the AIDS/contraception education I thought I was paying for.
For these and other beliefs, I've been branded a militant atheist when in
fact I am nothing of the sort. I happen to be very religious, but
absolutely not Christian, and am aware of the public outcry that would
result were I to attempt to force my religion on others the way that some
Christians do, or even worse, to attempt to make others pay for my doing
so, either by doing it in publicly-paid for places or by asking for public
funds with which to do it.
Those who defend the rights of persons to use publicly paid for places
without being subject to harassment by members of religions to which they
do not belong-- or the rights of persons not to have their tax dollars
spent to promote religions to which they do not belong, such as with
school vouchers-- are not "militant atheists".
They are merely defending the right of other people to not be bothered
with, or choose to pay for, your religion unless they choose to. They
may not be atheists.
They may even be devout people who don't wish to see their own religion
lose even more credibility with society on account of its members acting
in a rude and idiotic manner. Most of the members of Americans United for
Separation of Church and State are religious people, and the majority of
them are Christian.
Kiri
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:37:33 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
"Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:
> John Snead wrote :
>
> > "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> wrote:
> > > Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> > > > I've always taken a short description of the proper spheres of
> > > > science and religion to be
> > > >
> > > > "Science asks what the universe is. Religion asks why."
> > >
> > > Nope.
> > > Philosophy asks why.
> > > Religion tells you to stop asking awkward questions and just have
> > > faith.
> >
> > Militant atheism is no more appealing, polite, or defensible than
> > any other form of religious fundamentalism.
>
> And how is that comment related to what I wrote ?
I assumed (it seems incorrectly) that you were making a knee-jerk
atheist statement. In my defense, I have seen similar statements
made by atheists who believe *all* religions are evil. I apologize for
thinking you such a person.
> Philosophy _is_ the branch of study that investigates the why of
> things. Of course, there is no reason why religious people can't also
> be philosophers.
>
> And are you seriously suggesting that there is a religion out there
> doesn't tell you to stop asking awkward questions and just have faith
> at some point ? Isn't the faith component the whole _point_ of a
> religion ?
Yes actually. A number of Pagans and Sufis (among others) would
take issue with that. Ultimately, there are two answers to religious
questions:
1) Accept what someone else or some book tells you.
2) Gain direct experience with the divine.
My visionary religious experiences form the basis for my faith. I
would be somewhat non-plussed if some deity directly told me to
stop asking awkward questions, but I suppose it could happen.
Perhaps my ideas of religion will change if this does occur.
> And how is either statement related to atheism, militant or otherwise?
>
> BTW, it was a Jesuit who originally said that, not me.
Interesting but understandable, the Jesuits have along history of
that sort of thing. I remember a Jesuit quote about how if the Pope
tells you black is white, then you should just accept that black *is*
white. All religions are not like that, mine certainly isn't.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 13:37:33 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote:
> Subject:
>
> On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > Militant atheism is no more appealing, polite, or defensible than
> > any other form of religious fundamentalism.
>
> Ah, but how are you defining militant atheism?
>
> If you define militant atheists as people who go around getting in
> other people's faces and telling them not to believe in any gods,
> acting exactly like those who holler at you that you are going to hell
> if you don't, then I agree with you.
Yes, this is my definition. Both on the net and in person I have run
into a number of people who are quite happy to tell folks that they
think any and all forms of religion are stupid, harmful delusions. I
have little patient with that sort of thing.
> If you define militant atheists as those who would prevent members of
> the proselytizing faiths from doing this, then I have a problem with
> that statement.
Gods no, being impolite in the name of relgion is no more
acceptable that any other form of impoliteness. I don't want anyone
attempting to shove their religion down my throat, be they fundy
Christian, Hari Krishna, Atheist, or whatever. I do my best to
ignore street preachers and treat door to door evangelists the same
way I treat telemarkets or door to door salespeople (No, I'm not
interested. <shut door/hang up phone>).
Well, OK there was the one time I laughed in their face and shut
the door, but that was the one set of door-to-door Scientologists I
got. Those folks are *very* difficult to take seriously.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:37:29 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Hostile Environment Power Reqt's
>From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
>Subject: Hostile Environment Power Req'ts
>
>How much output of a power plant (% wise, not in absolute numbers) would
>y'all say goes to provide artificial gravity and life support to an orbital
>facility or sealed habitat on a zero-G world? Or a ship for that matter?
>Is there some definite canon material on this?
There isnt, but what else would an orbital facility spend it's power on ?
I would imagine you'd build in some sort of safety margin (unless FS got the contract of course - they'd
read 'must have safety margin' in the specs, and your space station would have a honkin great
Particle Accelerator Weapon), but I'd expect it to be 90% or so, with a battery backup or fission system
for minimal life support for 12 hours (minimal ls = no gravity in 95% of the station, and air recycling only.
Another reason to import food in such a station ...).
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 16:48:44 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] !!Request!!
>Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:40:09 +0000
>From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] !!Request!!
>
>At 13:30 -0500 8/2/01, Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >Ahhh, the Corsair... Ergh, sorry for the delay in noting this, Jesse, but
> >the only EXTERNAL picture I know of is a Kieth-drawn stern-quarter view
> >image in Megatraveller. And my books are home right now. ISTR that the
> >deckplan and the shillouette follow it pretty closely, however.
>
>I've vague recollections that the 'Letter of Marque' book (reprinted
>in the lost supplements) had some silhouettes of a corsair design.
>Unfortunately my copy is in safety at the moment. Can anyone check
>this?
>
>I can't remember any other corsairs in Traveller
>
>Dom
>
>------------------------------
I have this book and have devoured it. They make mention of the Type P
corsair but it is not depicted IIRC. What they do have is the Type NP
raider, which is externally identical to the type NR free trader also
described in that book. Altogether a different beastie.
Corsairs of the Turku Wastes also had a corsair design, in fact they have a
few pirate ship designs, but they aren't the same design as the Type P
described in Citizens. The illustrations of them are fairly simple, as
well, making the ship out to be something akin to a faceted box.
Oh! I DO now recall *a* corsair in FASA's Adventure Class Ships Vol. I. I
can't take it as terribly canonical, though. 600 tons, six turrets, two
triple beam and four particle accelerator(!) seems a bit out of the ability
of even gun-happy ethically challenged arms merchants. Ther ewas, however,
a single illustration of it, and it was not the Type P.
Cheers
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:07:25 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] !!Request!!
Thanks for the info!
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jonathan McDermott
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 1:49 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: [TML] !!Request!!
>
>
>
> >Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:40:09 +0000
> >From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
> >Subject: Re: [TML] !!Request!!
> >
> >At 13:30 -0500 8/2/01, Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > >Ahhh, the Corsair... Ergh, sorry for the delay in noting this,
> Jesse, but
> > >the only EXTERNAL picture I know of is a Kieth-drawn stern-quarter view
> > >image in Megatraveller. And my books are home right now.
> ISTR that the
> > >deckplan and the shillouette follow it pretty closely, however.
> >
> >I've vague recollections that the 'Letter of Marque' book (reprinted
> >in the lost supplements) had some silhouettes of a corsair design.
> >Unfortunately my copy is in safety at the moment. Can anyone check
> >this?
> >
> >I can't remember any other corsairs in Traveller
> >
> >Dom
> >
> >------------------------------
>
> I have this book and have devoured it. They make mention of the Type P
> corsair but it is not depicted IIRC. What they do have is the Type NP
> raider, which is externally identical to the type NR free trader also
> described in that book. Altogether a different beastie.
>
> Corsairs of the Turku Wastes also had a corsair design, in fact
> they have a
> few pirate ship designs, but they aren't the same design as the Type P
> described in Citizens. The illustrations of them are fairly simple, as
> well, making the ship out to be something akin to a faceted box.
>
> Oh! I DO now recall *a* corsair in FASA's Adventure Class Ships
> Vol. I. I
> can't take it as terribly canonical, though. 600 tons, six turrets, two
> triple beam and four particle accelerator(!) seems a bit out of
> the ability
> of even gun-happy ethically challenged arms merchants. Ther
> ewas, however,
> a single illustration of it, and it was not the Type P.
>
> Cheers
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 22:32:12 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] !!Request!!
Mr. DeGraff,
I've been following this thread with interest (hoping to get a whiff of
the project your working on) and have finally come to the realization I "bum
doped" you a few days ago.
When you asked about corsairs, I automatically assumed Vargr corsairs
and stupidly sent you information on them. D'oh! What a knucklehead!
Please accept my apologies, and I hope my mis-information didn't waste
any of your precious time.
Larsen E. "The TML Thickie" Whipsnade
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:18:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
In mail you write:
> Meanwhile the xboat (and sometimes a commercial trader) carries
> the show in packages recorded on data spools (or whatever).
Actually, stuff live TV shows won't go by X-boat. It doesn't *need* to
be distributed that fast. The media (anything from film on up to data
crystals or some such, depending on TL) will be shipped as cargo. And
probably a whole "season" at once.
Actually, rather than "season", they'll probably "block" shows in
groups of some convenient number of episodes, given the varying year
lengths on different planets. 25 sounds like a nice round number, and
isn't that different from what the networks do now.
I can see special cargo containers for this kind of shipment. One big
block of data crystals (or equivalent), with extra armor/shielding, and
some encryption and anti-tamper gear.
They deliver the container to the network at the destination, and they
hook it up to a standard interface unit and enter their decryption key
(which was sent via the X-boat network). And they download the entire
package for distribution to their stations.
Thousands of hours of hi-res 3D video with multichannel high sample
rate audio. All in a few dtons. And totally useless without that key.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:27:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
In mail you write:
> I have a very general question about jumping. This question probably
> falls into the "Well, DUH!!!" category, so go easy on me. My knowledge of
> the Traveller universe mechanics is spotty, and I'm working to correct
> that.
>
> A ship's hyperdrive is measured in terms of "jump" performance (jump-1
> through jump-6). Do those numbers refer to range, or velocity?
Range.
> If it's range, can a jump-1 ship make *only* short jumps of 3.2 ly or
> less? If a target system is more than 4 ly away, you're hosed.
Yep. Unless you've got the fuel to make two jumps. Then you can make
one jump, then make a second.
> Or, does jump performance refer to velocity? For example, take a jump
> that is 3 parsecs in length. An Empress Marva far trader can make that
> trip in eleven days or so, because it has "jump 2" drive. That same trip
> would take a Type F "Beowulf" trader around twenty-one days (three weeks),
> because it has only a "jump 1" drive.
Nope. All jumps take a week (plus or minus a bit, just to make things
interesting). Also misjumps can take a *lot* longer if you get really
unlucky.
This means that, among other things, if that jump 1 trader manages to
jump out of the system you are invading, you *can't* beat him to his
destination, even if you know what it is.
> I'm hoping it's the later case; much easier for me to work with.
Afraid not.
BTW, I have to ask... What are you using for rules? This is *clearly*
spelled out in every edition of the rules I've ever encountered.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:51:03 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] !!Request!!
It's "Jesse", please! G*d only knows what'll happen if I let that "Mr.
DeGraff" stuff go to my head ;)
Anyways, no harm no foul. I realised right away that you'd mistaken (or I
hadn't explained clearly enough ;) the corsair I was after. No biggie!
And for those trying to guess: Yes, it has to do with "ethically
challenged" merchants, but No, it ain't for G:T Corsairs ;)
And with that little tease....
Thankfully yours,
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Larsen E. Whipsnade
> Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 2:32 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: RE: [TML] !!Request!!
>
>
> Mr. DeGraff,
>
> I've been following this thread with interest (hoping to get
> a whiff of
> the project your working on) and have finally come to the
> realization I "bum
> doped" you a few days ago.
> When you asked about corsairs, I automatically assumed Vargr
> corsairs
> and stupidly sent you information on them. D'oh! What a knucklehead!
> Please accept my apologies, and I hope my mis-information
> didn't waste
> any of your precious time.
>
>
> Larsen E. "The TML Thickie" Whipsnade
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 17:05:38 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: [TML] !!Request!!
Jesse Degraff wrote:
>
> It's "Jesse", please! G*d only knows what'll happen if I let that "Mr.
> DeGraff" stuff go to my head ;)
>
> Anyways, no harm no foul. I realised right away that you'd mistaken (or I
> hadn't explained clearly enough ;) the corsair I was after. No biggie!
And here I was, thinking of sending you external views of the F4U
Corsair and the A7 Corsair II.... ;-)
<<snip>>
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 23:12:23 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] !!Request!!
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
"Anyways, no harm no foul. I realised right away that you'd mistaken
(or I hadn't explained clearly enough ;) the corsair I was after. No
biggie!"
Whew... (gray headed fat man wipes copious sweat from brow)
"And for those trying to guess: Yes, it has to do with "ethically
challenged" merchants, but No, it ain't for G:T Corsairs ;)"
Gulp... (gray headed fat man begin to salivate copiously)
"And with that little tease....
Thankfully yours,
Jesse"
Hmmm... (gray headed fat man begins to sweat in anticipation, copiously)
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 17:22:33 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
<<snip>>
>
> Nope. All jumps take a week (plus or minus a bit, just to make things
> interesting). Also misjumps can take a *lot* longer if you get really
> unlucky.
>
> This means that, among other things, if that jump 1 trader manages to
> jump out of the system you are invading, you *can't* beat him to his
> destination, even if you know what it is.
Unless, of course, your plus-or-minus for that particular jump is low,
while the free trader in question has a high plus-or-minus for that
jump....
In some tactical situations, the invader may have the luxury of jumping
squadrons to systems near the target world, to intercept would-be Paul
Reveres. Naturally, this tactic is most effective in situations where
the first jump from the target system would lead to systems with little
naval strength. In such cases, the interdiction squadron might both
prevent news of the main invasion from spreading and, by imposing a
blockade on the weak destination system, force a capitulation of said
system.
However, an invading commander should never count on such a happy
result.
<<snip>>
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 17:26:59 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: [TML] !!Request!!
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
>
> From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
> "Anyways, no harm no foul. I realised right away that you'd mistaken
> (or I hadn't explained clearly enough ;) the corsair I was after. No
> biggie!"
>
> Whew... (gray headed fat man wipes copious sweat from brow)
>
> "And for those trying to guess: Yes, it has to do with "ethically
> challenged" merchants, but No, it ain't for G:T Corsairs ;)"
>
> Gulp... (gray headed fat man begin to salivate copiously)
>
> "And with that little tease....
> Thankfully yours,
> Jesse"
>
> Hmmm... (gray headed fat man begins to sweat in anticipation, copiously)
And I note with some alarm your profligate use of the word "copious"....
;-)
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:28:23 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] !!Request!!
LOL!!!
Jesse
> And here I was, thinking of sending you external views of the F4U
> Corsair and the A7 Corsair II.... ;-)
>
> <<snip>>
>
> --
> AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
> "Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
> Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
>
> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3630
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3631
Date: | 2/9/01 7:42:32 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, February 9 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3631
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Deep space refuelling
Re: Deep Space Refueling
Re: [TML] !!Request!!
Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
ref: Problems accessing JTAS/Pyramid
Re: Deep Space Refueling
Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
Re: ref: Problems accessing JTAS/Pyramid
The Active Traveller Campaign Census '01
Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
Re: PepsiCo
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
Re: The Active Traveller Campaign Census '01
Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Deep Space Refueling
Re: What can go wrong with your Free Trader...or 'Why is my serial number '3'?
Re: Deep Space Refueling
Re: Imperium (Was something very long)
Re: Deep Space Refueling
Re: Deep Space Refueling
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 15:31:35 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling
>From: hal@buffnet.net
>Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
...
>How many people remember the wargame (boardgame) Imperium? If I recall
>correctly, it supposedly was intended to simulate the interstellar wars
>back when Jump 1 and Jump 2 were the fastest ships on the block. They had
>fuel tanker counters that permitted a ship to refuel at stars that didn't
>have any fuel sources. Would that not constitute the first known deep
>space refueling?
They did not, however, permit jumping to/from a non-system (i.e.,
deep-space) hex.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:29:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Cessna <graymask1120@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refueling
Dear All,
I've been giving the whole DSR question some
thought.
I don't think 3I would encourage DSR, despite its
economic benefits vis travel time, because if merchant
vessels operating along the borders can use the
refueler points, so can an invading force.
Because of this, I think that, at least on the
frontiers, the Imperial Navy would either _strongly_
discourage, or outright ban, refueling stations...not
that this would nessesarily[sp?] preclude them in the
3I's interior sectors.
My $.02
Michael A. Cessna
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 23:42:12 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] !!Request!!
"And I note with some alarm your profligate use of the word
"copious"...."
It's a glandular thing and I'd thank you not to make fun of it.
Larsen E. (taking umbrage, copiously) Whipsnade
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:45:12 -0000
From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
That would be me
My comment referring to _after_ the Rule of Man and Long Night, was my
shorthanded way of acknowledging that fact. :-)
To elaborate my thinking was along the lines of the 3rd Imperium not having
this capability at the time we were discussing. I was planning on raising
the possibility that this could be another example of lost knowledge. The
2nd Imperium could do it, but why should the 3rd Imperium be capable of it.
the poit is moot though as several other people have pointed out other
examples of deep space refuelling.
- - - - -start quote - - - - - - - - -
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:09:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
In mail you write:
>>>What is the first date for deep space refuelling after the Rule of Man
>>>and Long Night. If there is no canonical data for deep space refuelling
>>>could this then explain the failure of the 3rd Imperium to reach the
>>>Islands?
Deep space refueling was used for the *first* terran interstelar
expedition to use jump drive.
Remember, they only had J1 drives, and there are *no* stars within J1
of Sol.
- - --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
- - - - - -end quote - - - - - -
Just to come back my original request for information. Can anyone point me
to canonical description of how deep space jumps work (requirements etc.) If
not any ideas how it does work?
Peter
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk (Trav & AD&D)
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
And life is harsh and rarely fair.
Never appeal to a man's 'better nature.' He may not have one.
Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love (By Robert.Heinlan)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:28:44 -0500
From: "Vincent Runci" <vahid@prodigy.net>
Subject: ref: Problems accessing JTAS/Pyramid
I am a subscriber to both Pyramid and JTAS and I also
time-out at both sites (and also the sjgames main site).
Since the 28th or so of December, I have not been able
to access either site. It takes an extremely
long time to download and never finishes the process.
What seems to be happening is that it completes
downloading the site except for a very small amount of data.
The little bar on the bottom of the browser page that indicates
how much data has been downloaded is almost solid, but then
it just stops. Little or no graphics are displayed, but if I move
my cursor around I can see link addresses displayed on the
bottom toolbar of my browser (I use IE5). I am not having any
problems accessing other non-SJG sites online. It is very annoying.
I have e-mailed SJgames tech people and they have been very
helpful, but none of their suggestions seem to be working.
Gordon Hundley's post (about switching browsers) sounded very
similar to my problem, but I'm not looking forward to
readjusting software on my damn computer.
original message:
I have been trying to subscribe to JTAS for the last couple of days, but
the sjgames site seems to time me out before sending me the entire
subscription agreement. I'm not too concerned about the content of the
agreement, but I can't subscribe until they've sent the entire thing to me!
My question for people who are already on JTAS is this: Is the magazine
itself as glacially slow as the subscription site? I would like to know if I
can actually get access to the material I'm paying for before plunking down
ggod cash. Poverty makes a man cheap!
Thank you,
Colin Paddock
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:05:56 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refueling
Michael Cessna wrote:
> I don't think 3I would encourage DSR, despite its economic
> benefits vis travel time, because if merchant vessels operating
> along the borders can use the refueler points, so can an invading
> force.
I don't see how this follows -- preventing the enemy from using a
refuelling base would seem to be simplicity itself. At the very
least, you could dump (or rupture) the tanks and let the hydrogen
dissipate into the void. Not easy to gather it back up again.
The next question is whether such a refuelling base would have the LH2
capacity to refuel a full invasion force. A few weeks of steady
merchant traffic isn't likely to need as much fuel as even one jump
for any significant invasion force. Such a force would also have the
problem of getting back home again. Sure, you might be able to hold
the enemy's fuel depot -- but you aren't going to absolutely rely on
it.
On the other hand, you could set up your own (secret) fuel depot half
a light year away or more, and not have to worry about the problems of
capturing intact and then protecting a critical and probably
relatively fragile base whose precise location is known to the enemy
who built it with unknown safeguards to prevent your use of it.
So, I don't think the possibility of having an enemy make use of it
would be a significant argument against building it. It is more
likely that refuelling points would be an asset in a war than a
liability. It seems to me that the worst you should expect is that
the enemy can deny you use of it. At best, you can use it to support
your own actions. If it helps your civilian activities, so much the
better.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 17:15:55 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> At 02:04 AM 2/9/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>
>
>
>
>> I'm afraid as a list newbie, I haven't an idea about what you're on about.
>> Which would probably make me a perfect volunteer, but I'm not that mad. :)
>
>
>
> We have a tradition of trying to make each other laugh hard enough to expel
> whatever liquid one has been drink onto the keyboard. The traditional
> expression of "that was so damn funny I nearly died" is simply "keyboard
> kill."
>
> I have several, including the day I got five people with one post.
I even have a GIF, suitable for orinting out and pasting on the side of
your monitor in neat little rows for when you score a <SPLORT> kill:
http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/images/splort.gif
I suspect that Doug's looks like Joe Foss'es Wildcat.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:47:10 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: ref: Problems accessing JTAS/Pyramid
on 10/2/01 12:28 am, Vincent Runci at vahid@prodigy.net wrote:
Hi,
> it just stops. Little or no graphics are displayed, but if I move
> my cursor around I can see link addresses displayed on the
> bottom toolbar of my browser (I use IE5). I am not having any
> problems accessing other non-SJG sites online. It is very annoying.
> I have e-mailed SJgames tech people and they have been very
> helpful, but none of their suggestions seem to be working.
> Gordon Hundley's post (about switching browsers) sounded very
> similar to my problem, but I'm not looking forward to
> readjusting software on my damn computer.
This doesn't sound like the same problem - remember I said that the timeouts
didn't happen for normal browsing, just a password change? You're also not
on a Mac, so it's really not likely to be. Don't go adjusting software yet.
You don't have to install a heavyweight like Netscape to browse the site.
Any browser that supports authentication will work - like Lynx. However,
this won't debug your problem. You might like to flush your cache and remove
your cookies for IE (either use a tool - window washer, evidence eliminator
- - to do this, or manually delete just the SJGames ones). You might like to
just re-install IE in case either a part of the software or a library has
some missing registry entry or similar. It could be because a bug in the
browser itself is being hit - check winupdate to see if there are fixes
available.
Good luck,
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 17:01:53 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: The Active Traveller Campaign Census '01
I was just cruising downport http://www.downport.com again, and notice the
Active Traveller Campaign Census of 99. Interesting.
I propose that since we are now into the 2nd month of the 21st century,
perhaps it's time to take a new census. Is anyone else interested? If
there is enough interest, I'll set up a form to let people report their
games.
Tod
- ----
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
- ----
Tod Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.travellerguns.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:48:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
In mail you write:
> (if you increase misjump chances for deep-space jumps to, say, 1 in
> 216 or so, to reflect the pinpoint navigation requirements then it
> becomes even more uneconomic).
Why do you need "pinpoint navigation"? The jump shouldn't bee any less
accurate than any other jump. And the station will have radio beacons
and the like. At worst, you lose some time rendezvousing with the
station.
Keep in mind that a parsec is "only" 200,000 AU. And that since jumps
to planets regularly achieve accuracies of well under 100,000 km, you
can decrease the accuracy by a factor of several thousand and merely
have it be a nuisance.
> Then calculate the amount of revenue the ship needs to earn, to make an
> equivalent profit to doing 'normal' runs.
That's the killer.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 01:05:04 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: New Keyboard Kill Keeper Needed
on 10/2/01 12:15 am, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:
> http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/images/splort.gif
I like it. Very nearly a kill itself. :)
> I suspect that Doug's looks like Joe Foss'es Wildcat.
What's going on here? First we had F-4U, now F-4F, since we're going
backwards did I miss F-4H1?
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 19:17:31 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: PepsiCo
On 02/09/01 at 10:25 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com said:
>> Since the Soviets wouldn't allow Pepsi to take their profits out as
>> rubles, Pepsi had to *buy* something and ship that out.
Caviar and vodka, and they made a mint.
>What would PepsiCo have done with rubles anyway?
Run a very, *very* big Monopoly game? <g>
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:05:48 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
> Not being familiar with JTAS Online (I've been there but haven't
>subscribed) I wonder about it's "canonicity". Is there a Miller
recognized
>line editor? Even with one, there could still be some whoppers
created.
>Look at DGPs jump fuel ruling in MT for intance.
Editor: Loren K. Wiseman
He was the Editor of the original "Journal of the Travellers' Aid
Society"
He also posts here regularly using GDWGAMES@aol.com
> "No material points to large Vargr populations in either the
Marches or
>Deneb. So far two such worlds, Grant and Extolay, have been mentioned,
>again in JTAS Online articles, and I certainly hope to introduce a few
more
>(but only a few). Jewell would be one of them."
Jesedipere/Aramis The Traveller Adventure pg124 42% Vargr
"The Best of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society" Vol.2 pg11
Contact Vargr writen by Loren K. Wiseman
"While only a few planets populated completely by Vargr exist within
thge Imperium, there are millions of Vargr considered to be citizens of
loyal subject planets."
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 02:14:01 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
"Then calculate the amount of revenue the ship needs to earn, to make an
equivalent profit to doing 'normal' runs."
Exactly! I'm not saying Imperial space is littered with deep space
fule caches, military or civilian, but in an 1100 world enpire there's going
to be some places where a fuel cache will pay it's own way.
I've been squinting at a map of the Spinward Marches while grinding out
some "quick 'n dirty" trade volumes ala G:FT. There are a few "C" shape
kinks in the Spinward Main where two middling sized worlds are 3 parsecs
straight line distance from each other, but 5 or 6 parsecs away if you're
limited to jump-1 or 2. Why would a fuel depot be placed to "straighten"
out a few of these kinks? Think of them as oxbows...
Then there's the Rhylanor mini-cluster. It contains 3 systems, 3 class
A starports, 2 high-pop worlds, 2 naval bases, and a subsector capital. But
it doens't lay on the Spinward Main. A single fuel depot at either 2614,
2714, 2813, 2914, or 2915 will connect the cluster to the Main. Would a
fuel depot be of any use here?
Look at the Trin's Veil subsector. It's the only subsector not
connected to the Main, but a single depot off Squanine would connect 16 of
32 worlds to it. An additonal single depot between Squanine and Conway
would add another 11 systems to the Main. Would someone find that prospect
an economic bonanza or would they grumble about the cost and bother?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 20:46:40 -0800
From: "Pat Connaughton" <patconnaughton@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: The Active Traveller Campaign Census '01
Sure, why not.
Always up for another survey
Pat
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
To: TML <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 5:01 PM
Subject: The Active Traveller Campaign Census '01
> I was just cruising downport http://www.downport.com again, and notice the
> Active Traveller Campaign Census of 99. Interesting.
>
> I propose that since we are now into the 2nd month of the 21st century,
> perhaps it's time to take a new census. Is anyone else interested? If
> there is enough interest, I'll set up a form to let people report their
> games.
>
> Tod
> ----
> When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
> ----
> Tod Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellerguns.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 20:50:15 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
On 02/09/01 at 12:48 AM, Dalton Spence <dalton.spence@hwcn.org> said:
>What happens in canon to a ship that is already in jumpspace if ...
Answering for MTU...
>1.) ... external stores (ie. items attached to hull) are
>jettisoned?
They drift away, pass through the jump bubble never to be seen again
>2.) ... the jump drive is turned off?
IMTU, the drive puts you into jump space, then you turn it off. The jump grid, which protects the ship from jump space be holding a bubble of real space (inflated by hydrogen) around the ship, is what stays on throughout the jump. Turn the grid off and the bubble begins to collapse, jumpspace begins to interact with the ship and its occupants destroying them. It doesn't happen immediately, so you'd have a chance to get it working again, but over a period of a few hours the ship and its occupants are slowly destroyed.
>3.) ... the flow of power (or fuel) to the jump engines is reduced?
If the bubble "degrades" through lack of power to the grid or "fuel" then see above, again slowly. A ship might survive if this happens late enough in the jump with only partial damage and maybe a mad crew...mad in all senses of the word.
>4.) ... the jump volume of the ship is increased by inflating a
> balloon inside a cargo mesh?
More volume, requires a bigger bubble. Otherwise, see the answers above.
>5.) ... an attached ship with its own jump drive tries to use it?
Either nothing happens, the attached ship blows up, or both are destroyed. I tend toward attached ship blows up.
> (BTW, could two attached jump ships synchronize their drives
>and jump as one?)
Nope, not that way. One can piggy-back the other, both grids can be energized to protect both ships, a bubble around both can be created, but only one drive is used. That one drive has to be able to create an opening for the volume of both ships and there has to be enough "fuel" for both ships.
All IMTU, of course.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 02:51:56 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
"Editor: Loren K. Wiseman. He was the Editor of the original "Journal
of the Travellers' Aid Society"
I recognise Mr. Wiseman's name. It's been all over the stuff I've been
buying since '79. What I didn't know was that he was involved with JTAS
Online. You see, sometimes I'm slow...
"The Best of the Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society" Vol.2 pg11
Contact Vargr writen by Loren K. Wiseman. While only a few planets
populated completely by Vargr exist within the Imperium, there are millions
of Vargr considered to be citizens of loyal subject planets."
Yes, that's a given, considering how many former Julian worlds the
Imperium absorbed or conquered before the Protectorate stalemated them. Why
there's even a Vargr archduke! There's millions of humans proably
considered to be disloyal Imperial subjects too. But what percentage of
Vargr turn "traitor" compared to other Imperial species?
If the Vargr can be trusted then where are their worlds along the
border with the Extants? How many Vargr majority worlds are there between
Lishun and the Marches? How many worlds settled by Vargr before the
Imperium's arrival in Deneb still have a Vargr majority? Damn few, if any
at all.
So how do you explain the absence of those worlds? The Vargr should be
there, especially given their well known raiding and settling proclivities.
They were operating in the area, looting the Ziru Sirka, before the Rule of
Man. So where are their worlds? Explanation please.
I can understand millions of Vargr living within the Imperium, heck
even tens of millions, but I think they'll be scattered in "small" amounts
across many worlds so their volatility can be dampened by their more stable
neighbors of many other species. Worlds with large numbers of Vargr, even
if not the majority, near the border with the Extants would be viewed by
Imperial policy makers as a Bad Idea.
This isn't simple racism, like Japanese interment camps during WW2 (we
interned Germans, Italians, and other Axis citizens too. They just don't
get the press). This is simple pragmatism. You don't think the Vilani, the
majority human population of the area, remember what happened to the
coreward half of their empire?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 03:02:16 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refueling
>From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
>>Michael Cessna wrote:
> > I don't think 3I would encourage DSR, despite its economic
> > benefits vis travel time, because if merchant vessels operating
> > along the borders can use the refueler points, so can an invading
> > force.
>
>I don't see how this follows -- preventing the enemy from using a
>refuelling base would seem to be simplicity itself. At the very
>least, you could dump (or rupture) the tanks and let the hydrogen
>dissipate into the void. Not easy to gather it back up again.
I agree with you, Mr. Little. A merchant depot wouldn't be big enough
to service a fleet. Very simple precautions could deny a fuel cache to the
enemy.
How about a fully fueled "gate keeper" vessel on watch at the depot?
If the newly arrived ships don't seem quite right, they slag the depot and
jump out, leaving several unknown ships with dry tanks behind. Two weeks
later a friendly task force arrives to clean up. Should be easy to take all
those surrenders, if anyone's still awake and not in low berths waiting for
rescue that is.
Don't want to waste a ship? Well a computer with an IFF system can
work too. If it doesn't like the answers it gets, BOOM, no depot.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 21:20:20 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: What can go wrong with your Free Trader...or 'Why is my serial number '3'?
On 02/07/01 at 01:05 PM, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:
>> Of course, PCs can avoid such difficulties (which make General
>> Shipyards' products seem reliable) by purchasing ships from yards that
>> take pride in their work, such as AuricTech Shipyards.... ;-)
>Any PC that can buy a ship from someplace that advertises
>"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" has too
>much money, and should have it taken away promptly. ;-)
Spoken as the player of a PC ship owner in my Akus PBEM. Speaking of which....Bruce, if you don't post soon, Ricardo might just dose off at the stick of his Ship's Boat. <g>
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:21:19 -0800 (PST)
From: healyzh@aracnet.com
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refueling
> How about a fully fueled "gate keeper" vessel on watch at the depot?
> If the newly arrived ships don't seem quite right, they slag the depot and
> jump out, leaving several unknown ships with dry tanks behind. Two weeks
> later a friendly task force arrives to clean up. Should be easy to take all
> those surrenders, if anyone's still awake and not in low berths waiting for
> rescue that is.
> Don't want to waste a ship? Well a computer with an IFF system can
> work too. If it doesn't like the answers it gets, BOOM, no depot.
>
> Larsen
However, if you don't waste a ship, you've got friendlies that jump in, and
find themselves surrounded by hostiles wanting any drop of fuel they might
still have onboard. Of course even with the ship you've the problem of the
week transit time so a lot of friendlies could have jumped into the depot,
and been plundered for fuel. It all depends on the volume of traffic I
suppose. Personally I'd want some system defense boats hanging around if
there was much danger of hostiles.
Zane
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 22:34:19 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Imperium (Was something very long)
>The idea has some difficulties, like dice and whether it should be
>real-time or pbem, but these can be worked over.
>
>Sadly, I have no time for long games this spring. Perhaps during the
>summer...
Have you ever considered "Moderated" play? Ie, have two players plus a
referee? This way, you don't see their build ups, nor do you see their
movements. Best of all, he doesn't see *yours*. I for one wouldn't mind
getting involved in such a contest as either the player or the referee. It
wouldn't be hard to whip up some form of record keeping at my end via Access.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:37:29 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refueling
On 10 Feb 2001, at 3:02, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> How about a fully fueled "gate keeper" vessel on watch at the depot? If
> the newly arrived ships don't seem quite right, they slag the depot and jump
> out, leaving several unknown ships with dry tanks behind. Two weeks later a
> friendly task force arrives to clean up. Should be easy to take all those
> surrenders, if anyone's still awake and not in low berths waiting for rescue
> that is.
Great plan except for one minor detail (don't ya just love that). First time
theres a communiation snafu between an incoming legit ship and the
depot, BOOM no depot. This is not to say that it can't work, just that in
reality its going to be a lot less fool-proof than it sounds.
> Don't want to waste a ship? Well a computer with an IFF system can work
> too. If it doesn't like the answers it gets, BOOM, no depot.
This actually makes things worse. No human on the spot to make a
judgement call.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 03:37:44 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refueling
>From: healyzh@aracnet.com
"However, if you don't waste a ship, you've got friendlies that jump
in, and find themselves surrounded by hostiles wanting any drop of fuel they
might still have onboard. Of course even with the ship you've the problem
of the week transit time so a lot of friendlies could have jumped into the
depot, and been plundered for fuel. It all depends on the volume of traffic
I suppose. Personally I'd want some system defense boats hanging around if
there was much danger of hostiles."
Excellent points. Perhaps prior to intensive use of a fuel cache, the
military would send forces ahead to insure it's security? Or have clusters
of them space a few 10's of AUs apart, so a relief force can still transit
to the area with a chance of getting home?
I don't know how and enemy will find a fuel cache in the first place.
The list has already informed me that inhabited world's cannot be "detected"
over interstellar ranges (see earlier in the Island's thread) so sensors
detecting ships operating around a fuel cache isn't going to happen.
That leaves espionage and intelligence. The computers or records
aboard captured ships might give a cache location. Interrogation of POWs
will do the same. The Zhos will do very well here.
Successful espionage could give one power a list of another's fuel
depots and their locations. Once again the Zhos would have a leg up on
anyone else.
There's two "OBTravs" for you right there!
Larsen
P.S. Wasn't there a Brilliant Lances scenario about Imp and Zho scouts
skirmishing around the placemnet of supply caches in a neutral system's
planetoid belt?
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3631
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Date: | 2/10/01 7:37:56 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Saturday, February 10 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3632
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: Deep Space Refueling
Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
Pirate ships was Re [TML]!! Request
Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
Re: Deep Space Refueling
Re: [FILK] a first and two lasts.
RE: Theory of Evolution
RE: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
TML Landhack?
RE: Pirate ships was Re [TML]!! Request
RE: Islands
Re: instructions
Re: instructions
Re: instructions
RE:OT instructions
Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
RE: Boing
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3627
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 19:50:10 -0800
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
One more word here, of clarification. I didn't mean to infer that atheists
believe in absolutely nothing, just that they do not believe in a
supernatural being or deity in charge of things.
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of J-Man
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 13:47
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
Militant Athiest? Not you Kiri. Perhaps a Militant voice for Freedom of
Choice, but never atheism. It's my belief that atheism refers to those who
do not believe in *anything*. I'm a christian, but I would defend your
right or anyone else's to believe what you want to, in peace. Sometimes I
think churches must be magnets for the mentally insane. :)
- -----Original Message-----
If you define militant atheists as those who would prevent members of the
proselytizing faiths from doing this, then I have a problem with that
statement. I don't care if your religion tells you to go out and tell
other people the "good news" or whatever else you want to call it, I have
the RIGHT to not listen and to not be harassed about not listening. Nor
do I wish to have my pocket picked by having money that I have paid as
taxes for the purposes of public education, welfare, etc. used to pay
people to preach to the homeless before feeding them or to educate
children in creationism by the means of vouchers for religious schools, or
to tell people not to have sex, ever, unless they are married, instead of
providing the AIDS/contraception education I thought I was paying for.
For these and other beliefs, I've been branded a militant atheist when in
fact I am nothing of the sort. I happen to be very religious, but
absolutely not Christian, and am aware of the public outcry that would
result were I to attempt to force my religion on others the way that some
Christians do, or even worse, to attempt to make others pay for my doing
so, either by doing it in publicly-paid for places or by asking for public
funds with which to do it.
Those who defend the rights of persons to use publicly paid for places
without being subject to harassment by members of religions to which they
do not belong-- or the rights of persons not to have their tax dollars
spent to promote religions to which they do not belong, such as with
school vouchers-- are not "militant atheists".
They are merely defending the right of other people to not be bothered
with, or choose to pay for, your religion unless they choose to. They
may not be atheists.
They may even be devout people who don't wish to see their own religion
lose even more credibility with society on account of its members acting
in a rude and idiotic manner. Most of the members of Americans United for
Separation of Church and State are religious people, and the majority of
them are Christian.
Kiri
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 03:42:46 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refueling
>From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
"This is not to say that it can't work, just that in reality its going
to be a lot less fool-proof than it sounds."
Especially when a fool like me comes up with the idea in the first
place!
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:57:25 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
>
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> "Then calculate the amount of revenue the ship needs to earn, to make an
>equivalent profit to doing 'normal' runs."
>
> Exactly! I'm not saying Imperial space is littered with deep space
>fule caches, military or civilian, but in an 1100 world enpire there's going
>to be some places where a fuel cache will pay it's own way.
Yeah. They are called 'type D starports' :)
> I've been squinting at a map of the Spinward Marches while grinding out
>some "quick 'n dirty" trade volumes ala G:FT. There are a few "C" shape
>kinks in the Spinward Main where two middling sized worlds are 3 parsecs
>straight line distance from each other, but 5 or 6 parsecs away if you're
>limited to jump-1 or 2. Why would a fuel depot be placed to "straighten"
>out a few of these kinks? Think of them as oxbows...
Nope. People would just use jump-3 ships on that particular run. IMO 90%+ of Imperial trade (by
volume) would go on jump-2 and jump-3 ships.
BTW, Terry Mixon did a complete map of the Spinward Marches' trade routes - if you plug 'I am
looking for Terry Mixon's trade map of the Spinward Marches' into your favorite search engine, then
you should find a link.
> Then there's the Rhylanor mini-cluster. It contains 3 systems, 3 class
>A starports, 2 high-pop worlds, 2 naval bases, and a subsector capital. But
>it doens't lay on the Spinward Main. A single fuel depot at either 2614,
>2714, 2813, 2914, or 2915 will connect the cluster to the Main. Would a
>fuel depot be of any use here?
No, because nobody uses jump-1 ships for moving cargo more than 1 parsec. It just isnt economic.
IMO mains havent been important since the Solomani lifted the First Imperium's ban on private jump-2
vessels.
> Look at the Trin's Veil subsector. It's the only subsector not
>connected to the Main, but a single depot off Squanine would connect 16 of
>32 worlds to it. An additonal single depot between Squanine and Conway
>would add another 11 systems to the Main. Would someone find that prospect
>an economic bonanza or would they grumble about the cost and bother?
In my opinion, no-one would do it. There isnt enough jump-1 shipping to make it worthwhile, and the
security problems are, well, problematic.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:22:06 -0000
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: Pirate ships was Re [TML]!! Request
In MTU on of the ships used its chameleon hull to give it the appearance of
rows of gun ports. The captain was dressed up as Blackbeard, and they even
hung "sails" on the folding EMS passive array. Quite impressive at boarding
ranges, the ship was a 100,000 dt heavy cruiser.
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 22:33:20 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 00:05:00 -0800, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>Hello Terry,
> You would have to throw ice water on my back while I'm trying to grapple
>with the issue of automating the distance finder routine <grin>. The only
>options I have at this point is to finish my original plans to create the
>distance finder. Once that is done, perhaps figure a way to trace the
>shortest distance from point to point via jump drive X where X represents
>the jump drive value of the ship in question.
That's exactly the sort of software that a functional trader would
want to have running on his ship's computer. But that is just the
basic version of the software. Later versions would include a way of
indexing those jumps cross-indexed by the cost of jump fuel as
reported on each stop's fuel status reports for other planets.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 04:59:46 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
>From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
"IMO mains havent been important since the Solomani lifted the First
Imperium's ban on private jump-2 vessels."
Then why all the blather about the Mains ever since the LBBs?
"...security problems are, well, problematic."
What security problems? A small fuel cache serving free traders 10s of
parsec from any border is going to have security problems? Please give me
an idea of them.
Larsen
P.S. The G:FT trade maps of the Marches are great!
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 21:09:52 -0800 (PST)
From: healyzh@aracnet.com
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refueling
> Excellent points. Perhaps prior to intensive use of a fuel cache, the
> military would send forces ahead to insure it's security? Or have clusters
> of them space a few 10's of AUs apart, so a relief force can still transit
> to the area with a chance of getting home?
Good point on the clusters. You'd probably want to have a couple small
caches out of sensor range off in random directions from the main one.
These would only be revealed to the Captains of the relief vessels once they
actaully needed the information.
> Successful espionage could give one power a list of another's fuel
> depots and their locations. Once again the Zhos would have a leg up on
> anyone else.
Pretty much.
Zane
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:31:47 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: [FILK] a first and two lasts.
> Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 12:07:12 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: [FILK] a first and two lasts.
>
> In mail you write:
>
> > Came back again after all, but just long enough for this.
> >
> > Presumably the first Trav tune to have Vilani lyrics, and my money
> > says the last, too.
> >
> > Adios, y'all--
> >
> > Near-c Rocks (with mad props to the Clash)
> >
> > Near-c rocks 'n debates for the ego
> > And loopholes open in the dear old canon
> > Oh, please, help the TML get it
> > Now that GDW's dead and gone
> > Flaming posts from the digest list
> > The wank fests for the right answer
> > Near-c rocks are just hard sci-fi
> > I'm wearing out my delete key again
> >
> > CHORUS:
> > Near-c rocks, kishbasaazu megesuppu
> > Kishmugshizu, kha du shekigun
> > Near-c rocks, kishbasaazu megesuppu
> > Kishmugshizu, kha du shekigun
>
> I've got *no* idea what the tune to this is. Nor how to pronounce the
> Vilani. Any chance of a WAV file on your web site? :-)
The tune would be that of "Spanish Bombs" by the Clash.
You'll find it on the classic album "London Calling."
And the Vilani should be pronounced badly as is
the spanish in "Spanish Bombs"
Oh and great work Kenji!
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 23:42:30 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: RE: Theory of Evolution
> Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 11:03:27 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
> Subject: RE: Theory of Evolution
>
> DaveShayne writes:
<snip>
> >And looking for individual survival traits in a species whose greatest
> >survival trait is co-operative action is probably counter-productive.
>
> Actually, there is no shortage of individual survival traits to
> be found in humans.
I didn't deny it. I'm suggesting that those individual traits pale against
the overiding trait of co-operative action. Working together humans
are the strongest and fastest creatures on the planet. Working
individually even the fastest and strongest are comparatively slow
and weak.
> Our propensity for selfish behaviour is
> a good place to start.
Assuming we are demonstrably more selfish than other species.
An assumption that I don't think is well founded.
> There is still some debate as to the
> mechanisms by which cooperative behaviour evolves, but
> many believe that it may be attributed to purely selfish
> behaviours.
Which still leaves the co-operative behavior in place.
> This certainly fits into evolutionary theory (NOTE
> for the scientifically illiterate: the term "theory" in science
> refers to "A mature, coherent body of interconnected
> statements, based on reasoning and evidence, that explains
> a variety of observations"[1], and does not in any way imply
> a state of tentativeness or a lack of evidence.).
>
> [1] Futuyma, 1998
>
> Peez
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 01:10:07 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
Thanks Peter for the great reply.
On 9 Feb 01, at 18:58, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> I don't see the X-boat system running this way. Rather than
> channels I see entertainment media being bundled into packages
> and sold to local distributors/broadcasters ... either on the
> open market or through loose franchise agreements.
You're probably right, I keep thinking that there'd be weekly if
not more frequent x-boat visits to a world, which might allow things
to be serialized a bit more. But then as Leonard pointed out in a
previous post I just caught up to, it'd probably be more economical
to ship entertainment media as freight. [I like the encryption key
thing too.]
I could see more frequent x-boat visits among the higher population
and more valuable trade routes, dimishing with distance and economic
importance. Unless there are a LOT of people willing to x-boat
pilots and the taxes cover a really vast fleet of x-boats.
So what *does* travel via x-boat? Official communications at many
levels; financial updates; personal 'mail' I think. (The military
organizations have their own network, if I'm not mistaken.)
Other ideas?
[snip]
> Back to Traveller: I see news programs and some documentaries
> being distributed primarily in affiliation 'networks', and
> entertainment media in more open market deals. (And some planets
> may have only state-run broadcasters. They'd have a local
> monopoly on x-boat media material.)
[snip great example]
Ah, yes. But people would still be able to order copy of the
show via mail-order type deal from some company, after a suitable
producer/distributor-imposed delay of course. Eventually all the
old shows/etc. would be in a local repository, and with a millenium
or more there could be plenty to choose from. Though I imagine 90+%
of it wouldn't be of interest to any but historians, but I could see
the local Naasirka media branch making fairly recent shows available
(per-view fee of course). You could force your grandkids to watch
the great oldies, like "Pirates of the Blood Asteroids" that you
grew up on. :)
But it grows late and I fear I'm losing coherence...
caffeine finally wearing off...
need sleep...
It's a truism here, the later I stay up, the earlier my 3 and 6 year
olds will be up.
Rob D.
- --
Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net
'Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.'
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 06:09:22 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: TML Landhack?
I've been fooling around with Stuart Ferris' neat Heaven & Earth software,
throwing a few systems in the Spinward Marches through it using different
seeds. It may not be quick with full details on, but it does its thing
unattended, and the results are useful. Perhaps this could be something of a
distributed.net or SETI@Home thing for us Traveller fans. Rather than simply
picking a world and generating it, what if somebody were to put up a website
with all the unclaimed Spinward Marches systems on, and allow people to
'check out' systems for generation? Anything that doesn't get 'checked in'
with the resulting data (in HTML format) in a certain time goes back in the
pool. Eventually (probably fairly quickly), the whole sector would be
detailed to a very high level. A bit more work and all the generation
systems could be covered. Then onto the next sector... ;)
Of course, this takes nothing away from the Landgrab, and cannot be close to
canon, but it would make a wonderful resource. Systems could be removed and
replaced with Landgrab and canon entries when they are published. But in the
meantime, there would be a lot of highly detailed places for GMs to call
upon when their players don't co-operate and decide to explore where they
haven't detailed...
A worthwhile idea?
Gordon (busy hacking together stuff for his first Traveller session in over
a decade).
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 22:08:41 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Pirate ships was Re [TML]!! Request
ROFL!!!! I LOVE it!!
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Antony Farrell
> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 4:22 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Pirate ships was Re [TML]!! Request
>
>
> In MTU on of the ships used its chameleon hull to give it the
> appearance of
> rows of gun ports. The captain was dressed up as Blackbeard, and they even
> hung "sails" on the folding EMS passive array. Quite impressive
> at boarding
> ranges, the ship was a 100,000 dt heavy cruiser.
>
> Antony
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:08:23 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: RE: Islands
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: RE: Islands
...
> I set my campaigns in the Islands for the same reasons, until DGP saw
>fit to publish their maps and change the canon. TCS said the Islands were
>"...jump-6, or jump-3 with tanks..." distant from the Imperium. Just what a
>bunch of fueding TL 13 worlds could handle. Then DGP's maps "adjusted" the
>gap to 7 to 8 parsecs, thus blowing my entire campaign out of the water.
Zuflucht to 0416 and Amondiage to 3028 are both seven parsecs in
GDW's _Atlas of the Imperium_ (1984). DGP has much to answer for,
but this doesn't seem to be one of the items.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:33:39 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: instructions
On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > It has always been a puzzle to me why they don't put labels on everything
> > like they do on claymore mines: "Front -- Toward Enemy"
> In Japan there are instructions on the top of soda cans.
Do you know what reads on the bottom of Swedish Coke bottles?
"Open at the other end."
(Sorry Jens, and other Swedish-minded people on the list... B-)
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:32:40 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: instructions
"Mikko V. I. Parviainen" wrote:
> Do you know what reads on the bottom of Swedish Coke bottles?
>
> "Open at the other end."
>
> (Sorry Jens, and other Swedish-minded people on the list... B-)
To hear that coming from a Finn is quite something... ;-)
(we use the same joke about Norweigans)
ObTrav: The SwordWorlds probably have a lot of internal dissent, but
whenever something external threatens one part, the rest of the
SwordWorld put aside their rivaleries until the external threat is dealt
with.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:47:59 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: instructions
On 10 Feb 2001, at 12:33, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:
> On Fri, 9 Feb 2001, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> > On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > > It has always been a puzzle to me why they don't put labels on everything
> > > like they do on claymore mines: "Front -- Toward Enemy"
> > In Japan there are instructions on the top of soda cans.
> Do you know what reads on the bottom of Swedish Coke bottles?
Here are some label instructions on consumer products:
1. On a blanket from Taiwan = Not to be used as protection from a tornado
2. On a helmet mounted mirror used by US cyclists = Remember, objects
in the mirror are actually behind you
3. On a Taiwanese shampoo = Use repeatedly for severe damage
4. On the bottle-top of a (UK) flavoured milk drink = After opening, keep
upright
5. On a New Zealand insect spray = This product not tested on animals.
6. In a US guide to setting up a new computer = To avoid condensation
forming, allow the boxes to warm up to room temperature before opening
(The instruction was INSIDE the box.)
7. On a Japanese product used to relieve painful haemorrhoids = Lie down
on bed and insert Poscool slowly up to the projected portion like a sword-
guard into anal duct. While inserting Poscool for approximately 5 minutes,
keep quiet
8. In some countries, on the bottom of Coke bottles = Open other end
9. On a packet of Sunmaid raisins = Why not try tossing over your
favourite breakfast cereal?
10. On a Sears hairdryer = Do not use while sleeping
11. On a bag of Fritos = You could be a winner! No purchase necessary.
Details inside.
12. On a bar of Dial soap = Directions - Use like regular soap.
13. On Tesco's Tiramisu dessert (printed on bottom of the box) = Do not
turn upside down.
14. On Marks & Spencer Bread Pudding = Product will be hot after heating.
15. On a Korean kitchen knife = Warning keep out of children.
16. On a string of Chinese-made Christmas lights = For indoor or outdoor
use only.
17. On a Japanese food processor = Not to be used for the other use.
18. On Sainsbury's peanuts = Warning - Contains nuts.
19. On an American Airlines packet of nuts = Instructions - Open packet,
eat nuts.
20. On a Swedish chainsaw = Do not attempt to stop chain with your
hands or genitals.
21. On a child's superman costume = Wearing of this garment does not
enable you to fly.
22. On some frozen dinners = Serving suggestion, Defrost.
23. On a hotel provided shower cap in a box = Fits one head.
24. On packaging for a Rowenta iron = Do not iron clothes on body.
25. On Boot's "Children's" cough medicine = Do not drive car or operate
machinery.
26. On Nytol sleep aid = Warning may cause drowsiness.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 12:02:08 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE:OT instructions
On the door of the loo at Sequoia National park: 'Please keep door closed to
discourage bears from entering' !
On Tesco's Instant Hot Oat cereal: 'Breakfast has been shown by many leading
nutritionists to be one of the most important meals of the day'. The others
being lunch and dinner?
MediaOne (AT&T Broadband) cable-modem assistance webpage can only be
accessed by a cable modem.
Midol premenstual tension relief medication: 'Do not take this product for
menstuation-related pain if you are pregnant.'
Miami beach parking department mail-order instructions: 'If you plan to only
purchase visitor permits through the mail, you must come in person to do
so.'
Radio add for an indigestion reliever: product described as 'chewy, not
chalky'. Serious-sounding, deep voice-over adds: 'contains calcium
carbonate'. Not just that, but it's all natural, 'chemical free' calcium
carbonate.
AOL ad: 'We can help you with our guide to computing for beginners' The
guide is available on AOL's website.
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 06:54:48 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
At 02:55 AM 2/8/01 -0800, John Snead wrote:
> >* It has been proven that we could have come from a single set of
> >parents, and recent tests with genetics and the rate of mutation
> >within a certain stuff (name not remembered) placed the first
> >woman at 6,000 years ago (too soon for evolution).
>
>1) That would be the first fully modern human (as opposed to the
>first hominid). This idea in no way contradicts current theories of
>evolution.
>
>2) It was 60,000 years ago.
>
>3) This is based upon mitochondrial DNA evidence and says
>nothing about the first couple, only the first (fully human) woman.
Actually, the last common female ancestor, not the first woman.
James
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 06:52:34
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Boing
At 08:45 PM 2/9/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>>"Together, we are.. DAVE."
>
>Jesse, just to avoid confusion, we'll call you 'Dave'. ;-)
You don't know how close you are..
Doug, conquered by the Dave Alliance during the great BayCon Nuclear War
Tournament of 1994. All Hail Llewellyn the Teddy Bear God of Death!
Married to Kirsten, an honorary Dave by virtue of dating.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 07:07:39
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3627
At 04:20 PM 2/9/2001 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 09-Feb-01 2:03:10 PM Central Standard Time,
>owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
>
>> Johm since you are not combat arms, I'll give you our most treasureed
>secret.
>>
>> The end of the rifle with the little hole in it goes towards the enemy.
>>
>It has always been a puzzle to me why they don't put labels on everything
>like they do on claymore mines: "Front -- Toward Enemy"
That much-maligned bit on the claymore has a very, very good reason behind
it. When you are installing the damn things at night, during a rainstorm,
it is very easy to get it turned around. So raised letters on the front of
the mine that you can feel helps you make sure that the mine you just
emplaced is not pointing at *you.*
For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, the M-18A1 Claymore
Antipersonnel Mine is a box about the size of a shoebox. Rather than
burying it, you set it up pointing in a specific direction. When triggered
(by a trip wire or by command) it sends a large number of ball bearings
into a conical kill zone. Linking several together on one circuit creates
what we like to call a "mechanical ambush." Bad guys walk into your kill
box, you press one switch, and upwards of a dozen mines go off.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Some days, you just can't get rid of a bomb!"
-Adam West, as Batman
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3633
Date: | 2/10/01 8:43:29 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Saturday, February 10 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3633
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Islands
Re: Deep Space Refueling
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: instructions
Re: Islands clusters
They All Died...
Re: Religion (long) and an OBTrav
Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
Re: instructions
Re: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Re: Deep Space Refueling
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:21:01 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Islands
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Islands
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:08:23 -0800
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Islands
"I set my campaigns in the Islands for the same reasons, until DGP saw
fit to publish their maps and change the canon. TCS said the Islands were
"...jump-6, or jump-3 with tanks..." distant from the Imperium. Just what a
bunch of fueding TL 13 worlds could handle. Then DGP's maps "adjusted" the
gap to 7 to 8 parsecs, thus blowing my entire campaign out of the water."
"Zuflucht to 0416 and Amondiage to 3028 are both seven parsecs in
GDW's _Atlas of the Imperium_ (1984). DGP has much to answer for,
but this doesn't seem to be one of the items."
Yikes, I'm a dope. Would you believe I have never seen a copy of the
"Atlas"? Guess I was silly enough to think that TCS was canon.
Larsen E. (I'm a pickin' and I'm a grinnin') Whipsnade
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:27:06 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refueling
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> I don't know how and enemy will find a fuel cache in the first
> place.
I believe we were talking about commercial, civilian fuel caches, not
military ones. Caches of this kind are not going to be secret unless they
are totally in-house ones run by a particular corporation for its own
ships.
Finding such a cache is a matter of asking.
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:47:01 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Yes, that's a given, considering how many former Julian worlds the
> Imperium absorbed or conquered before the Protectorate stalemated them.
> Why there's even a Vargr archduke! There's millions of humans proably
> considered to be disloyal Imperial subjects too. But what percentage of
> Vargr turn "traitor" compared to other Imperial species?
Well, as it happens, IMTU a major faction of the Ine Givar has a majority
of Vargr members. On the other hand, this faction specialises in raining
on the parade of the kind of people who going around calling Vargr
treacherous...
Basically, IMTU many Imperial Vargr get really militant when people start
saying this kind of stuff about them. And this includes Archduke Brzk -
not someone you want to mess with.
"So watch your oddly smelling butt, pinkie, before some less tolerant Vargr
than me pops a gauss needle into it."
- -----------------------------------------
With that out of my system: I think that relatively few of the Vargr
settlements in Imperial space were particularly large, and most of them
were either abandoned or have been overshadowed by larger human
settlements. There isn't really a policy of distributing Vargr over many
worlds rather than allowing to congregate on a few worlds, it just has
tended to work out that way. In any case, the largest concentrations of
Imperial Vargr are probably on High Population worlds, where tens or even
hundreds of millions of Vargr are just another ethnic community...
A slight general grumble: I was thinking of doing some stuff on Extolay as
part of my Phlume landgrab project (as Extolay and Phlume are adjacent),
and now I hear that Hans has done stuff on Extolay in JTAS which is bound
to directly contradict what I was going to do. Pout. Sulk.
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
Free Trader Captain Ouzogh: "No Zhodani ever called me Doggie".
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:21:27 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: instructions
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:
> 20. On a Swedish chainsaw = Do not attempt to stop chain with your
> hands or genitals.
Genitals were not mentioned. However, the rest is true.
You forgot the "do not dry pets in microwave" thing... ;-)
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:20:16 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Islands clusters
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
> "I evidently see the Imperium as being a good deal less insular than
>you do. What in the world difference does it make what species someone is if
>he is loyal to the Imperium?"
>
> I don't see the Imperium as insular either, they're not Sollies after
>all. Didn't they even change the flag so a new minor race could see it?
>But I do think they'd be pragmatic. I can't quite grasp how they could be
>fighting a species in one sector while also using the same species as
>colonization partners and supports in an adjacent sector.
Sorry, I don't see the problem. If the sophonts in question belonged to the same
political unit, or even the same culture, sure, but as it is, the Vargr of
Llaravi (early name for Extolay) propably don't even know that there are Vargr
in Provence and certainly couldn't care less about their problems.
> There is a mixed "humano-Vargr" society in the Antares area because
>that's what the Imperium absorbed there. But, do we see a similar mixed
>society in Lishun, Vland, Corridor, Deneb, or the Marches? Those areas
>border the Vargr extants too, but none of the canon material I've seen shows
>any mixed societies.
As Chris Thrash is fond of saying, "absence of evidence is not evidence of
absence". I don't agree with him in all cases, but unless you have a document
purporting to give an exhaustive overview of Vargr distribution in Imperial
space, the fact that such societies are not mentioned anywhere means absolutely
nothing. Traveller canon is full of such cases. There's a Zhodani client state
with about 70 worlds in the Foreven sector, no further spinward from the
Darrians than the Imperium is trailing of them. Any history of the Darrian
Confederation ought to contain at least a mention of their interaction with this
Avalar Consulate, but there's a whole book about the Darrians that doesn't
mention them by as much as a line.
Come to that, it took 20 years before the Vargr on Extolay showed up in any
canon source ;-).
>The DGP maps pretty much listed "minority" species as part of a system's UPP.
>Any significant Vargr numbers in their map of Deneb?
Culturally separate minorities are few or none (I can't remember if there are
one or two). Which is exactly why I made the Vargr on Extolay fully integrated.
> "In any case, I don't intend to introduce any Vargr world with
>starfaring capability at that time, so the point is entirely moot."
>
> Well, they got there somehow and, even if they can no longer build
>their own space craft, the Imperium would be foolish not to keep an eye on
>them.
You forget that until 250 all these worlds were outside the Imperium. Some of
them propably remained outside for a while longer.
>All it would was one corsair visiting the world and getting word back to his
>pack mates in the Extents.
Assuming facts not in evidence. To wit, that there are Vargr worlds with
starfaring capability close enough to the Marches to make raids economically
feasible. A Vargr raider has the same handicap every other pirate and privateer
has: He has to pay his own bills. Taking a ship on a three month journey to
steal a few chickens simply isn't cost-effective.
>The Imperium would find a big nasty tumor of Vargr piracy growing right inside
>it's borders.
In my (unpublished) writeup of the history of Regina, I do mention a bit of
Vargr trouble. No more than they can handle, though.
>The very thing that they're fighting for over 100 years in the Corridor.
You keep getting your dates mixed up. The Vargr problem didn't get big enough to
provoke a reaction until 210. Yet we know that there were Vargr in Corridor in
the year 0. If the Imperium took 210 years to lose patience with what starfaring
Vargr were doing in Corridor, why would they, in 100, worry about what
planet-bound Vargr were doing a couple of subsectors beyond their furthest
outpost?
> "I don't see the problem. Any Vargr would defend its home world against
>attack in much the same way a human would."
>
> A single Vargr may be loyal to anything, a group of Vargr are loyal to
>nothing. Why defend your world if turning coat means the fighting will
>bypass you? During the opening moves of each war, the Vargr may prove
>steadfast, but what about when the Zho seige is in it's 2nd year? Or after
>the "loyal" Vargr realize they risk death, dismemberment, or property loss
>if they resist further? The situation is made to order for their fickle,
>volatile natures to undergo a flip-flop. They'd hand over the keys in a
>heartbeat. It's hardwired into them.
I'm always leery of such absolute statements. Humans have lots of hardwired
traits that they manage to overcome. Which is why I came up with this for the
article I set on Extolay:
"Refereeing Assimilated Vargr
Assimilated Vargr have all the physical advantages and disadvantages of ethnic
Vargr, but many of the typical Vargr mental traits are less pronounced and
sometimes completely absent. Scientists disagree on how much these traits are
inborn but suppressed by association with Humans, or not inborn and just not
learned in the first place. In game terms, the mental and social advantages and
disadvantages of ethnic Vargr are common but not mandatory for assimilated
Vargr, and taboo traits are uncommon but not forbidden. The comparison between
dogs and wolves is highly impolitic, if difficult to avoid. Assimilated Vargr
react very poorly to the suggestion that they have been "tamed" by Humans or,
even worse, are just "Humans in Vargr suits" -- claims that ethnic Vargr are
quick to make. Assimilated and ethnic Vargr react to each other at -2 or worse."
_The Most Dangerous Prey_, JTAS Online, April 11, 2000
>Jewell has remained a rock throughout five wars and for over five centuries.
>Any substantial Vargr minority population there would be an enormous security
>risk.
I disagree, but even if you are right, so what? A risk is not a certainty. Maybe
Jewell avoided disaster by the skin of their teeth five times in a row. Maybe
they just beat the odds.
>Vargr enclaves on world could welcome Zho invasion forces and delay Imperial
>defenders.
Well, we know for a fact that there are no Vargr _enclaves_ on Jewell (Since
Jewell does not have a "V:0" notation). That doesn't prove there are no Vargr.
Or Vargr ghettos, if you want something in between enclaves and total
assimilation.
>Even small numbers of Vargr deciding to switch sides could raise havoc. Think
>about having 10% of your SDB force turn tail and run, or even join the other
>side. It would make Imperial planners wake up in a cold sweat.
Actually, it would be the Jewell government that would deal with any Vargr
problem, not the imperial planners. One simple solution would be not posting
all-Vargr crews to SDBs.
> I brought up the wars to support my theory that the Imperium was a
>vibrant, thrusting society prior to the Civil War era. The Imperium felt
>they could accomplish anything. During each, they marshalled significant
>forces.
>
>The Corridor - It could have been fought to protect trade. Who were they
>trading with? Partially developed worlds full of refugees from the 1st
>Empire or RoM?
Well, after 2,000 years I doubt any of those worlds could be said to have any
refugees. But yes.
>3I colonies? Both? If it was just waged to create a bridge of strongpoints
>for shipping to jump between, why doesn't the Corridor map so a majority of
>non-aligned, Vargr populated worlds surrounding a well fortified jump-3 path
>of Imperial garrisons?
First they set up a string of strongholds (at the very beginning they
negotiated with local Vargr worlds to protect the trade). That worked well
enough for more than 150 years. Not until then did they Vargr nuisance become
great enough to provoke a concerted response from the Imperium (though as it
took the Imperium 138 years to complete the campaigns, one could imagine that
they didn't make any all-out effort). After that there is another 700+ years for
the Imperials to move into Corridor.
>Where did all those human settlers come from and how did they get ahold of
>those worlds?
Most of the original immigrants would come from Vland, some from further away.
But by far the greatest number of those living there now was a result of
population growth.
>Aslna Border Wars - This one was fought for a couple of reasons; to set a
>firm boundry with the Aslan and to impress the independent human polities in
>the area.
Actually, the Imperium was asked by the Old Earth Union to mediate. When the
Aslans found out that the OEU was an Imperial client state, they challenged the
Imperial negotiator. He accepted the challenge and worked out the rules for the
coming conflict with limited forces specified for both sides. And he won. I
doubt if he even referred back to the Emperor before the whole thing was over,
although that last bit is down to me.
>Both sides had been fighting through out the Long Night and neither side could
>prevail. The Aslan were hampered by their clan-based structure, the humans by
>the small size of their polities. The 3I shows up, fights and beats enough of
>the Aslan clans to force them to recognize the DMZ, and suitably impresses to
>local human systems to join up. just forcing the land hungry Aslan to respect
>a no settlement zone was some accomplishment. Norris and the Regencey should
>be so lucky.
<Grin> I can just see the TML grognards wincing and heading for cover. You're
pressing one of my buttons here, Larsen. I've long been of the opinion that
given the canonical description of Aslan society, a few simple calculations will
show that there is no way the Aslans can invade the Domain of Deneb. Heck, the
Imperium has kept the Aslans at bay in the Trojan Reach for 500 years...
> Ilelish Rebellion [...]
>Care to guess how many ship's the 3I used during all phases of this "mere"
>rebellion? And while still guarding the frontiers?
If I could see what that had to do with our present discussion, I might.
>The Chanestins - The 3I was still bedeviled by something in the Core sector
>early in it's existence. Why was there any need for a pacification campaign
>there? Why were the early Imperial palaces fortifed?
You're touching on stuff from the _Travellers' Digests_ between 4 and 13 here,
aren't you? I'm afraid i don't have those, so you'll have to provide some quotes
if you want me to understand what you mean.
> "Now, how much did you say such a ship cost?"
>
> About 1400 MCr at TL 12.
>
> "Divide that by 3,500 and you get the cost to move a colonist one
>subsector."
>
>Not exactly, once the ship's are built, all they have to be is maintained.
Right you are. I should have said 35,000. So that would be Cr40,000 per settler.
That's about four times the average yearly earnings of a citizen. Now multiply
that by the square of the number of subsectors between the Imperial core and the
Marches and you'll get the cost to ship someone out there.
>I don't exactly see a ship setting our from Daibei and travelling all the way
>to Deneb with a load of colonists. I do see corpsicles and the 1.5dT
>allotment being handled like frieght though. Passed from shipper to shipper
>until they arrive at the IISS colony staging base a couple of years after they
>froze out.
You don't reduce the cost by doing it peacemeal. You still have to pay for the
whole trip.
> "The question is, why would they spend all that money to get rid of a
>tiny fraction of a percent of their population?"
>
> Prestige? Pride in joining the Imperial mission? There's very good
>economic evidence that the colonies the European powers scrambled for during
>the 19th century never paid for themselves, so why did they do it?
Oh, I've no doubt some Imperial member planets colonized all they could get
away with. I just think they would target worlds much closer to home.
> "Isn't there a canon description of a Marches system being developed
>for colonization..."
> "There is indeed. Forboldn. I've actually written it up for PYRAMID."
> I'd love to read that article! Would you have a copy on hand?
Sorry, SJG owns the electronic rights to it. But it's mirrored in the JTAS
Online archives, so you can get access to it with just a JTAS subscription.
>If there are large pre-existing colonies in Deneb and the Marches,
In Deneb. Not that many in the Marches.
>...would the 3I view people who's ancestors fled it's two predecessors as
>potentially loyal or as something that should be watched?
Why would the Imperium care what motives their remote ancestors might've had?
I'm sure the British government don't lose much sleep over the loyalties of the
people in the former Danelag, and they were Danish less than a millenium ago!
> If there were a large number of refugee colonies in Deneb, why did the
>future Sword Worlders go so far into the "bush"?
They came the other way, through the Aslan Hierate and across the Great Rift
(And then another 50 parsecs beyond the Hierate borders as it was then) (As
mentioned by Jon Zeigler in _GT:Rim of Fire_ and by me in my writeup of the
Sacnoth Dominate ;-) [I'm sorry to do this to you; it's not deliberate, but I
have spent a lot of thought and done a lot of work on the history of the
Spinward Marches, and some of it has snuck into my articles.]
>Wouldn't it have been more economical to join a world already settled?
It certainly would, but they didn't want that.
>Same question hold for the Turkish corporation that traveled all the way to
>Darrian, why so far if there were other human worlds who just as eagerly
>embrace the corporation's technology as the Darrian's did?
We're told they wanted to leave the area of the Rule of Man completely. Maybe
they thought the Lidash League worlds were too close to Vland.
> "The child of an Imperial marcher is just as loyal as someone shipped
>in from some other world. Propably more."
>
> Very true. Canon materials even speak of that. Of course the fellow
>shipped in from another world is a loyal Imperial too.
Yeah, but the local only costs a stamp to enlist.
> "Getting rid of malcontents and misfits have benefits in itself, but
>sheer export is worthless. You can't relieve population
>pressures worth a damn, and you get no benefit from your colonies unless
>they are cloes enough for you to control. Remember, the Imperium discourages
>multi-world member states."
>
> I don't see colonization as shipping out misfits, malcontents, and
>petty criminals.
Actually, I mentioned that as one of the few plausible sources of immigrants to
the Marches.
>I'm suggesting the Imperium colonizes via the "australian method".
I thought that was the "Australian method"???
>I see colonists as people who want to join the adventure, who want their own
>land, who want the social freedom a new world will provide their children, who
>have wanderlust.
And who have a couple of hundred thousand credits saved up.
> Colonization is an Imperial mission, not that of it's member worlds.
I disagree completely and totally. I don't think the early Imperium concerned
itself with colonization except in special circumstances.
>Creating and founding new loyal worlds for the Imperium is not worthless.
>Those worlds will grow to become productive members of the Imperium.
ssure, but you don't have to ship in the total population. Ship in a few tens of
thousands and nature will take its course. "Grow" is exactly the right word.
>Babies are worthless too, in the short run. But the short run doesn't stop us
>from having them.
Actually, there is considerable evidence that that is just what is happening in
1st World countries today...
> "Because it increases the cost of fuel considerably and is thus not
>interesting except for very special occasions."
>
> Then why is a one-lung outfit like Arekut...
I thought it was Akerut? Isn't Arekut the one in delphi? Or am I mixing them up?
(;-).
Anyway, Arekut or Akerut as the case may be is hardly a "one-lung outfit" its a
subsector-wide company.
>...doing running a deep space
>fuel cache in a backwater like Aramis? The March Harrier crew and their
>employers plan on hijacking a ship a day for two weeks. Why so much traffic
>if the benefits don't outway the costs? Or is it some megacorp tax dodge?
Obviously it is a special situation.
Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"...all at once I UNDERSTOOD just WHY it is that men FIGHT each other.
I suddenly saw the ANSWER to all this SENSELESS VIOLENCE that afflicts us!
But, like, I didn't write it down or anything and, like, y'know how it is -
next morning I had totally forgotten what it WAS, man."
"DR and Quinch get drafted" from _2000 AD_
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 15:40:54 -0000
From: Matt Bond <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk>
Subject: They All Died...
> Frankly, as GM I get a little annoyed at players trying
> crackpot stunts like
> this. "OK, what happens if we stretch a tightrope between two
> 747s in flight
> and try to walk between them?" If they try it too often, they
> discover that
> everyone concerned dies a horrible death.
>
> LKW
I assume that they must have seen Airforce One...
Matt
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:10:30 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Religion (long) and an OBTrav
>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
"3) This is based upon mitochondrial DNA evidence and says nothing
about the first couple, only the first (fully human) woman.
Actually, the last common female ancestor, not the first woman."
That is an important point usually lost by both evolution's detractors
and most of the science "popularizers". The 60K year mark for the
mitochrondrial "Eve" doen't mean that other human females didn't exist at
the same time, or even prior to that time.
What it does mean is that our mitochrondrial "Eve" is our most distant
ancestor who had at least ONE female in every generation of her descendents.
The mitochrondrial markers are only passed down by females.
If other females, who either co-existing with "Eve" or lived prior to
her, had a single descendent generation that did not contain a female, or a
female that bore childen, then the mitochrondrial DNA for those women was
not passed on within the genome.
60K years is quite a number of generations, so the idea that these
other "Eve's" mitochrondrial DNA traces passed out of the genome is entirely
plausible.
The mitochrondrial "Eve" was not the first human female, and neither
was she alone. She's just the most archaic one we can pinpoint with this
method.
ObTrav - Evidence for the removal and subsequent scattering of humaniti by
the Ancients points to a time frame of 400K - 300K years before the present.
But, current research on the human genome on Terra can only lead back to a
genetic "Eve" 75K - 60K in the past. Can the Vilani, Zhodani, and other
"human" minor races still be considered truly human?
Has the research been corrupted in some way? Has the research been
academically reviewed? Has it even examined other human populations off
Terra? Who's really paying for the research? Is this some sort of SolSec
plot?
The PCs are hired as assistants/bodyguards for the Imperial researchers
looking into this. Several groups on both sides of the issue have expressed
a keen, and sometimes violent, interest in the work. Pressure groups,
demonstrations, even acts of sabotage have occurred. Also, a key Imperial
researcher has recently disappeared.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:21:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
In mail you write:
> Look at the Trin's Veil subsector. It's the only subsector not
> connected to the Main, but a single depot off Squanine would connect 16 of
> 32 worlds to it. An additonal single depot between Squanine and Conway
> would add another 11 systems to the Main. Would someone find that prospect
> an economic bonanza or would they grumble about the cost and bother?
Hauling fuel is still expensive.
On the other hand, it might be worth jumping into a good location and
looking for "iceballs". Even one only a few km across would keep you in
business for a *long* time.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:18:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
In mail you write:
> On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 00:05:00 -0800, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>
>>Hello Terry,
>> You would have to throw ice water on my back while I'm trying to grapple
>>with the issue of automating the distance finder routine <grin>. The only
>>options I have at this point is to finish my original plans to create the
>>distance finder. Once that is done, perhaps figure a way to trace the
>>shortest distance from point to point via jump drive X where X represents
>>the jump drive value of the ship in question.
>
> That's exactly the sort of software that a functional trader would
> want to have running on his ship's computer. But that is just the
> basic version of the software. Later versions would include a way of
> indexing those jumps cross-indexed by the cost of jump fuel as
> reported on each stop's fuel status reports for other planets.
As well as what commodities were avalable and which were in demand, so
he could trade along the way.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 07:56:17 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: instructions
In mail you write:
> 5. On a New Zealand insect spray = This product not tested on animals.
That's merely a marketing item. They didn't use animals to test the
product for *safety*. Which makes a big difference to some folks.
> 10. On a Sears hairdryer = Do not use while sleeping
<sigh> caused by a stupid customer doing exactly that, then suing.
> 20. On a Swedish chainsaw = Do not attempt to stop chain with your
> hands or genitals.
I don't even want to *know*.
> 24. On packaging for a Rowenta iron = Do not iron clothes on body.
Because some idiot *tried*.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 00:17:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
In mail you write:
> Thanks Peter for the great reply.
> On 9 Feb 01, at 18:58, Trevor, Peter wrote:
>> I don't see the X-boat system running this way. Rather than
>> channels I see entertainment media being bundled into packages
>> and sold to local distributors/broadcasters ... either on the
>> open market or through loose franchise agreements.
>
> You're probably right, I keep thinking that there'd be weekly if
> not more frequent x-boat visits to a world, which might allow things
> to be serialized a bit more. But then as Leonard pointed out in a
> previous post I just caught up to, it'd probably be more economical
> to ship entertainment media as freight. [I like the encryption key
> thing too.]
There's also the consideration that when you buy a "current" series
right now, you buy it a season at a time. When you buy a discontinued
series (or old seasons of a long running series) you get the whole
thing.
> I could see more frequent x-boat visits among the higher population
> and more valuable trade routes, dimishing with distance and economic
> importance. Unless there are a LOT of people willing to x-boat
> pilots and the taxes cover a really vast fleet of x-boats.
>
> So what *does* travel via x-boat? Official communications at many
> levels; financial updates; personal 'mail' I think. (The military
> organizations have their own network, if I'm not mistaken.)
> Other ideas?
Anything that goes priority mail, fed-ex, airmail, etc now. plus stuff
that's now handled by fax or email. And stuff that used to be handled
by telegrams, cable, and telex.
Some will be electronic, some will be hardcopy. And some will be "small
packages".
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:38:39 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
> That much-maligned bit on the claymore has a very, very good reason behind
> it. When you are installing the damn things at night, during a rainstorm,
> it is very easy to get it turned around. So raised letters on the front of
> the mine that you can feel helps you make sure that the mine you just
> emplaced is not pointing at *you.*
Aren't there raised letters on the back of the mine also? Do they still have
a slight curve to them that can be used as a guide? (I operate in the
ignorance of having never seen an actual mine, merely one of the fiberglass
dummies used in training).
Another interesting factoid: since claymores are (supposedly*) command
detonated (a sentient touched them off) they aren't covered by the "mine ban"
treaty.
LKW
* They can be linked to a tripwire, so I understand.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:39:05 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refueling
>From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
"I believe we were talking about commercial, civilian fuel caches, not
military ones. Caches of this kind are not going to be secret unless they
are totally in-house ones run by a particular corporation for its own ships.
Finding such a cache is a matter of asking."
Would a civilian cache be "big' enough to assist a military operation?
Commerce raiders would undoubtedly find them useful, besides knowing the
locations. Would a battle fleet be able to "top off" using one?
Remember, except in a few extreme cases like a "bridge" to the Islands,
I'm suggesting a cache here and there to lengthen a Main or allow jump-2
frieghers a few navigational options. Tukera's megafreighters won't need
them, they've got the jump range already.
The Imperium might exert some control over where fuel caches could be
placed. The army in Wilhelmine Germany had the final say with regards to
railroad construction. They only allowed those that could help their
strategic plans, even insisting on over capacity in some areas. Could the
Imperium simply say "No deep space fuel caches with X parsecs of border Y"?
We've already confirmed the delicate nature of the caches. Couldn't
the Imperium simply destroy any of them in "delicate" areas after the
balloon goes up?
OBTrav - The PCs are hired by INI to determine the existence and location of
an "outlaw" fuel cache. While not strictly illegal in this area, all such
caches must be registered with the local navy base for obvious reasons.
Analysis of ship traffic in the subsector and continued rumors point to a
cache being operated, but searching a parsec wide area is impossible.
The PCs must infiltrate the disreputable shipping firm who allegedly
set up and uses the cahce, prove their bona fides, and wrangle the
permission to use it. INI wants precise navigational data on the location,
so their forces can jump in as close as possible to the cache and apprehend
the perpetrators.
A Vargr polity has collapsed just across the border. Adherents to the
losing side have entered the Imperium and an upsurge of Vargr corsair
activity is under way The PCs are tasked with destroying a set number of
civilian caches. The corsairs have been been using them to great effect.
Most naval assets are tied up with defending worlds and outposts, while the
rest are beating the bushes on a "rover round-up".
The PCs must travel rapidly between a half dozen civilain fuel caches
and either destroy them with their ship's weaponry or plant explosives,
which ever proves more effective. Navy command will want proof in the form
of sensor scans of each depot's destruction.
The PCs might face irate merchants not wanting their shortcut
destroyed, a ship that jumped after the cache was destroyed despite warings
issued at the starports on either side of it, or a Vargr corsair waiting at
a depot for incoming shipping or making repairs.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3633
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3634
Date: | 2/10/01 12:06:48 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Saturday, February 10 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3634
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
Re: [OT] Facts & Theories
Re: The Active Traveller Campaign Census '01
Claymore (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #3627)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Re: [OT] Facts & Theories
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Almost enough to get you to play WW.
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Extolay (was: Islands subsectors)
And now for something totally different (Was Islands clusters)
Still Problems accessing JTAS/Pyramid
Re: Islands clusters (long)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:47:20 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (not really) & Religion (long)
I said:
>At 02:55 AM 2/8/01 -0800, John Snead wrote:
>> >* It has been proven that we could have come from a single set of
>> >parents, and recent tests with genetics and the rate of mutation
>> >within a certain stuff (name not remembered) placed the first
>> >woman at 6,000 years ago (too soon for evolution).
>>
>>1) That would be the first fully modern human (as opposed to the
>>first hominid). This idea in no way contradicts current theories of
>>evolution.
>>
>>2) It was 60,000 years ago.
>>
>>3) This is based upon mitochondrial DNA evidence and says
>>nothing about the first couple, only the first (fully human) woman.
>
>Actually, the last common female ancestor, not the first woman.
>
>
>James
Wrote that this morning before going in to the boat for a couple
hours. Now that I'm properly awake.... 8)
Somebody did similar studies recently on Y-chromosome DNA. Since Y
chromosomes are found only in males, this gave a date for the last common
male ancestor (dubbed "Y-chromosome Adam") of around 59k years ago. The
correct date for "mitochondrial Eve," by the way, is around 143k years.
James
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:00:05 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
hal@buffnet.net writes:
>How many people remember the wargame (boardgame) Imperium? If I recall
>correctly, it supposedly was intended to simulate the interstellar wars
>back when Jump 1 and Jump 2 were the fastest ships on the block. They had
>fuel tanker counters that permitted a ship to refuel at stars that didn't
>have any fuel sources. Would that not constitute the first known deep
>space refueling?
No - because Imperium only let you jump between stars (including ones
with no planets), not to deep space (empty hexes).
Possible explanation: Vilani jumpdrive (which we know worked on
different principles to the 3I version) was only capable of
precipitating a ship *out* of jumpspace when it hit a major gravity
well. No star or other large object within J1 or J2 range, and the
ship would be lost forever in J-Space.
This would also explain the other point which puzzled me for a long
time: why Vland is in the far coreward corner of the Ziru Sirka,
rather than being roughly in its centre. There's a two-parsec rift
just to coreward of Vland, so until J-2 was discovered (or a
convenient large rock spotted in deep space) ships would *have* to
follow the Main to rimward/trailing...
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:03:16 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
"Look at the Trin's Veil subsector. It's the only subsector not
connected to the Main, but a single depot off Squanine would connect 16 of
32 worlds to it. An additonal single depot between Squanine and Conway
would add another 11 systems to the Main. Would someone find that prospect
an economic bonanza or would they grumble about the cost and bother?"
"Hauling fuel is still expensive."
So is limiting the numer of people who can trade with you.
"On the other hand, it might be worth jumping into a good location and
looking for "iceballs". Even one only a few km across would keep you in
business for a *long* time."
I guess it boils down to on how ubiquitous the free traders are and
whether they're considered important enough. Is there any TML concensus on
this?
The RPG portion of Our Olde Game is necessarily skewed towards the free
and far traders. It gives the PCs something to do while still being
manageable for the GM.
So, how many free traders are operating in an average subsector at any
given time? Four? Forty? Four hundred? (not likely!) Is the trade and
passenger traffic they bring to worlds off the megacorp's routes of any
importance? Or are they viewed as a barely tolerated nuisance?
We already know that world's subsidize merchant traffic through the
purchase of shipping. Would a single fuel cache that connects that world to
a Main and increases traffic not be worth a subsidy too?
The use of iceballs will drop the price. There's a canon reference to
an Imperial tender being used to give a large monitor a lift to it's new
home. How about the Navy using a tender every so often to seed a depot with
a couple 100KdTons of "ice-teroids". Be a heck of a PR story.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 09:10:48 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [OT] Facts & Theories
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Bond" <MBOND@karpad.demon.co.uk>
> So to reiterate, evolution is a fact and the current theory is the most
> reliable explanation. Creationism disregards the data and handwaves it
> away and thus has no basis for claiming equal 'airtime' with evolution
> within a scientific curriculum. It is an act of faith to believe in
> Creationism, and as such should be taught in Church, not school (or at
> least, only in a comparative religions, or religious studies type class,
> not in biology)
There remains no evidence (no matter how many times you state that it is
fact) that one species becomes another species. It has not been shown to
happen unaided. Nor has there been any proof offered to show that life can
come unaided from where there is none. Both ideas, creation and evolution,
are too poorly supported by evidence to be accepted without a measure of
will to do so.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 09:35:34 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: The Active Traveller Campaign Census '01
The list has been modified a bit since it was first placed there, but not
much. I think that is was eclipsed by a project that someone else did last
year, perhaps Eris? I'll give Rob Eaglestone first dibs on updating the
listing, since it was his baby in the first place. If anyone wants to update
their info they can email me directly. I was hoping for an improved version
that is broken down by country and state, but I should like to see another
twenty or so on the listing before bothering with that, eh?
Take a look at the list and see if your campaign is listed and if your
listing is up-to-date. http://www.downport.com/understanding/active.html
Meanwhile I'll contact Rob.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<><~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Colin Michael, ct@downport.com
www.Downport.com - "The Traveller Domain"
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
> I was just cruising downport http://www.downport.com again, and notice the
> Active Traveller Campaign Census of 99. Interesting.
>
> I propose that since we are now into the 2nd month of the 21st century,
> perhaps it's time to take a new census. Is anyone else interested? If
> there is enough interest, I'll set up a form to let people report their
> games.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 09:14:27 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Claymore (was: Traveller-digest V1999 #3627)
on 2/10/01 7:07 AM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:
> For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, the M-18A1 Claymore
> Antipersonnel Mine is a box about the size of a shoebox.
I'd call more the size of a tall paperback book, or a medium sized
soft-cover bible, if you prefer. here's a photo:
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/army/unit/guards/m18a1.htm
> Rather than
> burying it, you set it up pointing in a specific direction. When triggered
> (by a trip wire or by command) it sends a large number of ball bearings
> into a conical kill zone.
Now I know I've been reading this list too long. My brain said 'canonical
kill zone' when I read this.
> Linking several together on one circuit creates
> what we like to call a "mechanical ambush." Bad guys walk into your kill
> box, you press one switch, and upwards of a dozen mines go off.
Another use for popsicles. Aside from a cool, refreshing treat, they are
the source for the mark I claymore aiming device. (That's popsicle stick to
you non-prior service types.
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 09:19:11 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
on 2/10/01 8:38 AM, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> Aren't there raised letters on the back of the mine also? Do they still have
> a slight curve to them that can be used as a guide? (I operate in the
> ignorance of having never seen an actual mine, merely one of the fiberglass
> dummies used in training).
No letters on the back, and the curve is there to produce the wedge shaped
blast pattern. However, the teach you in basic that you can orient the mine
by holding it against your chest. If it fits nicely (i.e. the curve fits
you body), you've got it pointed the right direction
>
> Another interesting factoid: since claymores are (supposedly*) command
> detonated (a sentient touched them off) they aren't covered by the "mine ban"
> treaty.
>
> LKW
>
> * They can be linked to a tripwire, so I understand.
>
Any system that will fire a blasting cap can be used to detonate a
claymore: command detonate, tripwire, time fuze etc.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:21:51 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [OT] Facts & Theories
SwordWorlder wrote:
> Nor has there been any proof offered to show that life can
> come unaided from where there is none.
It has in fact been proved that life *can* come unaided. Amino acids et
al can form spontaneously. They can also form replicating structures, ie
life. It has not been proved that life *did* come unaided, however.
Let's leave the argument at that. I believe (!) that a lot of people
around here know my opinion already, so I will not restate it.
I will now go back to creating some Traveller ships. I advice the
participants of this argument to do the same.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:31:32 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
on 10/2/01 4:38 pm, GDWGAMES@aol.com at GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> Aren't there raised letters on the back of the mine also? Do they still have
> a slight curve to them that can be used as a guide? (I operate in the
> ignorance of having never seen an actual mine, merely one of the fiberglass
> dummies used in training).
I've seen a UK one - I don't know if they are the same manufacturer. They
have the same writing on the front, which is convex. The back is concave,
with a ridge, into the bottom of which is inserted the stand.
> Another interesting factoid: since claymores are (supposedly*) command
> detonated (a sentient touched them off) they aren't covered by the "mine ban"
> treaty.
>
> LKW
>
> * They can be linked to a tripwire, so I understand.
They can also be linked to a buried electronic pressure switch, and the mine
can be hidden in foliage without compromising its effectiveness. There are
also smaller variants, and ones that do not use metal shards, but composite
based ones that will be missed by conventional detectors. Copies of these
mines are made in South Africa and China and sold to any bidder.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:16:33 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
on 2/10/01 9:31 AM, Gordon Hundley at gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk wrote:
>
> They can also be linked to a buried electronic pressure switch, and the mine
> can be hidden in foliage without compromising its effectiveness. There are
> also smaller variants, and ones that do not use metal shards, but composite
> based ones that will be missed by conventional detectors. Copies of these
> mines are made in South Africa and China and sold to any bidder.
>
> Gordon.
Accuracy Systems used to make a miniature claymore known as the mini-more.
It was about the sized of a plastic soap travel container. Very cute. Add
a time fuse and an adhesive back and it's just the thing to take care of
rude strangers who may be following you.
(I really must work on my Trav weapons site...)
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:44:47 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
On Sat, 10 Feb 2001 GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
[Claymore mines]
> Aren't there raised letters on the back of the mine also? Do they still
> have
> a slight curve to them that can be used as a guide? (I operate in the
> ignorance of having never seen an actual mine, merely one of the fiberglass
> dummies used in training).
The ones I have seen (and detonated, as an exercise) were curved. I don't
remember where our mines came from, but I think that the curvature helps
to spread the stuff more efficiently.
> Another interesting factoid: since claymores are (supposedly*) command
> detonated (a sentient touched them off) they aren't covered by the "mine ban"
> treaty.
Hm. I could argue that _all_ mines are set off by the actions of sentient
beings, but that would probably be an exaggaration.
I'm all for banning air delivered mines and such, like the ones made to
look like toys, but as my fatherland is quite difficult to defend without
mines, the ban-all-personnel-mines treaty doesn't just sound very good.
(Argh, I just realised that this is going to be another gun control
thread, only about military grade weapons this time. Please disregard
previous chapter...)
> * They can be linked to a tripwire, so I understand.
Almost anything can, especially if its purpose is to hurt people. B-)
ObTrav:
How many planets do have nuclear weapon capability? How many of them do
have no actual weapons but can construct them in a very little time given
the need?
Of course, this is following from the Imperial rules of war.
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 07:51:50
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Almost enough to get you to play WW.
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6700/penguins/penguin0.html
- --
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!" - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 09:02:12
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
At 11:38 AM 2/10/2001 EST, you wrote:
>Aren't there raised letters on the back of the mine also? Do they still have
>a slight curve to them that can be used as a guide? (I operate in the
>ignorance of having never seen an actual mine, merely one of the fiberglass
>dummies used in training).
There used to be, but raised lettering on both sides tend to defeat the
purpose. The live ones I used had the "FRONT TOWARDS ENEMY" only.
>Another interesting factoid: since claymores are (supposedly*) command
>detonated (a sentient touched them off) they aren't covered by the "mine
>ban" treaty.
That treaty. Feh. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. Land mines
are an excellent method of denying an area to the enemy. Emplace them,
pull the safeties, and leave. They die, you don't get shot at. Or use
them to channel the enemy into a kill zone. The Germans were so good at
this that the Soviets learned to just accept the losses of charging over
minefields rather than dance to the Wehrmacht's tune.
>* They can be linked to a tripwire, so I understand.
And that's half the fun. One nasty trick I learned in the service was to
set up a mechanical ambush down the trail from where you are. Let the
enemy unit pass your position. They walk into the claymores. Boom.
Survivors will fall back towards their last rally point.. which means that
they'll come right into your kill zone. Boom again.
But always remember: *real* soldiers don't carry around popsicle sticks to
help aim the damn things.. :)
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Trust Ivanova, trust yourself, anybody else: shoot them."
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:01:44 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Extolay (was: Islands subsectors)
Alan Bradley writes:
>With that out of my system: I think that relatively few of the Vargr
>settlements in Imperial space were particularly large, and most of them
>were either abandoned or have been overshadowed by larger human
>settlements. There isn't really a policy of distributing Vargr over many
>worlds rather than allowing to congregate on a few worlds, it just has
>tended to work out that way. In any case, the largest concentrations of
>Imperial Vargr are probably on High Population worlds, where tens or even
>hundreds of millions of Vargr are just another ethnic community...
That's more or less the way I think of the few worlds that had Vargr settlements
prior to 55.
>A slight general grumble: I was thinking of doing some stuff on Extolay as
>part of my Phlume landgrab project (as Extolay and Phlume are adjacent),
>and now I hear that Hans has done stuff on Extolay in JTAS which is bound
>to directly contradict what I was going to do. Pout. Sulk.
Maybe not. It was only an Amber Zone and a Library Data entry, so the amount of
information is limited. The most important one is propably that in 1120 the
Vargr on Extolay are fully integrated (with the exception of the small community
of refugee Vargr introduced by _BtC_). As for the Library Data entry, I guess
I can quote that and regard it as fair use. I hope so, anyway. If not I'm sure
Loren will let me know.
"Llaravi (Spinward Marches 1711, C455776-5): Independent world orbiting in the
life zone around the star Kasengi in the Llaravi System. Settled in the 9th
century pre-Imperial by refugee Vargr from Gvurrdon. The society quickly
splintered and fell to a tech level of 2 to 3. When the Scouts found them
in 52, they put the planet under interdict pending further investigation. The
system proved a convenient link in the trade route to the Zhodani, however, and
as the system's lack of gas giants made the planet the most convenient source
of fresh fuel, passing traders frequently ignored the interdict to refuel. Some
of them went further and traded with the local princes. Several adventurers
made their way to the planet and entered into service with one prince or
another, helping them to improve their technology and advising them about
warfare. In 93, a scout mission came to the planet to evaluate its societies.
They found several societies well into the industrial revolution (as well as a
couple of hundred Humans living illegally on the planet) and concluded that
enforcing the interdict now would be more disruptive than allowing the state of
affairs to continue. The interdict was formally lifted in 98. A consortium of
Reginan businessmen maintain factors in the Principality of Ekhsthollae and
chip in to keep a spaceport running. A small fuel purification plant supplies
fuel to passing traders." [_Mora -- Year 100_, JTAS Online, February 22, 2000]
Note that this LD entry is from the Year 100.
Admittedly I've been tempted to do some more work on Extolay's history (it seems
to me to have some fascinating possibilities), but I'm tempted to do the same
with dozens of worlds and 9 times out of 10 I never get around to it.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:39:35 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: And now for something totally different (Was Islands clusters)
Hello Folks,
Has anyone considered doing for the Third Imperium, what was done for
TRAVELLER 2300 AD?
To wit:
We have the Survey from 4th Edition TRAVELLER. We have Pocket Empires
from 4th Edition TRAVELLER. We have GURPS STARPORTS, GURPS FAR TRADER, and
even some other GURPS rules for abstracted combats.
What would keep us as a mailing list occupied greatly, and would mesh in
well with the Land Grab concept <evil grin> is a moderated wargame over the
net that encompasses all of the elements of history for the Third Imperium
from start to finish.
How would this work?
Stage one would be to set up the history of the universe as it was until a
specified year. Stellar profiles would be built according to *realistic*
stellar data. Tech level advancements will result strictly from
investments into the social infrastructure and/or as a by-product of
social/economic intactions between two worlds with a disparate tech level
structure.
Stage two would be a careful record keeping phase where all events are
noted by the moderator(s) who in turn make note of the economic problems
faced by planets or social factors involved. Civil wars are handled as
"encounters" by specified players. If someone is running SuSag and finds
that they can create a governmentally friendly environment by funding an
insurgency, then that is what happens. Pirates will tend to operate out of
regions where governments find it convienient to permit - until some group
says "we are outlawing any contact with you until you clean up your act".
In short - a GRAND IMPERIAL game of truely epic proportions...
Perhaps Steve Jackson Games can create an Email based game that costs $20
per year to participate in for all those members who participate. <shrug>
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 11:53:18 -0800
From: "Colin Paddock" <su_liam@ordata.com>
Subject: Still Problems accessing JTAS/Pyramid
Normally I use Netscape 4.73. After I recieved Gordon Hunley's
suggestion, I tried IE 4.5. After that behaved the same way. I installed
Netscape 3.0 on my computer and tried that. Same result. Nothing else on
the net seems to be behaving this way except stuff on the sjgames.com/io.com
servers. Sadly I haven't got any response from their webmaster at all.
My patience is kind of failing me so I think if I don't find a solution
toot-sweet I'll have to give up on this (sob-sniff-sniffle). I'm sorry if
my posts are wasting bandwidth, I'm just kind of up a tree and I really
wanted to get onto Pyramid and JTAS.
If anybody has any ideas I'd be enormously thankful. On the subject of
which: Thanks to everybody who has already posted. It hasn't necessarily
fixed the problem but it has been good.
Thank you.
- -----------------------------------
>From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
>To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
>Subject: Re: ref: Problems accessing JTAS/Pyramid
>Date: Fri, Feb 9, 2001, 4:47 PM
>
> on 10/2/01 12:28 am, Vincent Runci at vahid@prodigy.net wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
>> it just stops. Little or no graphics are displayed, but if I move
>> my cursor around I can see link addresses displayed on the
>> bottom toolbar of my browser (I use IE5). I am not having any
>> problems accessing other non-SJG sites online. It is very annoying.
>> I have e-mailed SJgames tech people and they have been very
>> helpful, but none of their suggestions seem to be working.
>> Gordon Hundley's post (about switching browsers) sounded very
>> similar to my problem, but I'm not looking forward to
>> readjusting software on my damn computer.
>
> This doesn't sound like the same problem - remember I said that the timeouts
> didn't happen for normal browsing, just a password change? You're also not
> on a Mac, so it's really not likely to be. Don't go adjusting software yet.
>
> You don't have to install a heavyweight like Netscape to browse the site.
> Any browser that supports authentication will work - like Lynx. However,
> this won't debug your problem. You might like to flush your cache and remove
> your cookies for IE (either use a tool - window washer, evidence eliminator
> - to do this, or manually delete just the SJGames ones). You might like to
> just re-install IE in case either a part of the software or a library has
> some missing registry entry or similar. It could be because a bug in the
> browser itself is being hit - check winupdate to see if there are fixes
> available.
>
> Good luck,
>
> Gordon.
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:03:44 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands clusters (long)
Hans,
Thanks for the quick turn around! Your post, as always, was excellent!
Here's my take...
And away we go...
"Sorry, I don't see the problem. If the sophonts in question belonged
to the same political unit, or even the same culture, sure, but as it is,
the Vargr of Llaravi (early name for Extolay) propably don't even know that
there are Vargr in Provence and certainly couldn't care less about their
problems."
Canon refers to the Vargr's strong racial pride. Despite their
nebulous organization, they tend to present a united front when their race
is perceived to be threatened. I think news of Vargr being pushed out of
the Corridor would have been very frightening to those on Extolay. It's
within the Imperium's border and the Vargr there might get worried that the
pinkies will get eventually around to running them off, just like in the
Corridor.
I'm not worried about what political unit a Vargr belongs to today, I'm
worried about the one he'll belong to tomorrow. Or more accurately, what
the current political unit will change into. Vargr polities change their
stripes faster than the AIDS virus. And like that virus, they usualy keep
the same name.
I don't like to make sweeping generalizations either, both I also
believe that sophonts, when observed in sufficient quantities, can exhibit
predictable behaviors thanks to the psychological make up and evolution of
their species. All Hivers are not manipulators. All K'Kree are not
intolerant religious bigots. All Vargr are not unstable. But large numbers
of them do exhibit predictable behaviors.
"As Chris Thrash is fond of saying, "absence of evidence is not
evidence of absence"
I agree. There is no canon evidence for the existence or non-existence
of any Vargr states in Deneb. With all that empty ground, you, as a
recognised Traveller contributor, can fill it with what ever you wish.
Afterwards, you can change the canon motto of the Corridor Fleet from
"No Vargr below The Line" to "No, Vargr below The Line, unless they happen
to be on or from the many worlds we absorbed and exploited to assist in the
colonization of Deneb" Going to take one hell of a patch on the uniforms
though.
"You forget that until 250 all these worlds were outside the Imperium."
Outside doesn't mean beyond raiding distance.
"A Vargr raider has the same handicap every other pirate and privateer
has: He has to pay his own bills. Taking a ship on a three month journey to
steal a few chickens simply isn't cost-effective."
So, the canon references to Vargr wanderlust and the desire to see
what's 'round the bend don't make them a little less tied to economic
reasons for every action? What about a corsair on the losing side of the
constant political turmoil and on the run? Would it still be too long a
journey for him?
"The very thing that they're fighting for over 100 years in the
Corridor."
"You keep getting your dates mixed up. The Vargr problem didn't get big
enough to provoke a reaction until 210. Yet we know that there were Vargr in
Corridor in the year 0. If the Imperium took 210 years to lose patience with
what starfaring Vargr were doing in Corridor, why would they, in 100, worry
about what planet-bound Vargr were doing a couple of subsectors beyond their
furthest outpost?"
"Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that the fighting took about 100 years.
I know the Corridor Campaign started in 210 and finished in 348. Just
poor writing on my part.
"Refereeing Assimilated Vargr..."
Everything I've read about the Julians in the Challenge make no
reference to Vargr assimilation or social interaction with humans having a
stabilizing effect on their "mental traits". The Julians are said to have
to work around the problems the Vargr portion of their citizenry presents.
Of course those same traits provide benefits too. You get lemons, make
lemonade.
"Assimilated Vargr react very poorly to the suggestion that they have
been "tamed" by Humans or, even worse, are just "Humans in Vargr suits" --
claims that ethnic Vargr are quick to make."
Wow, Vargr "Uncle Toms"!
"Assimilated and ethnic Vargr react to each other at -2 or worse."
And the tension between them and the "Homies"! You haven't been
watching a lot of US television, have you? 8^)
"Actually, it would be the Jewell government that would deal with any
Vargr problem, not the imperial planners. One simple solution would be not
posting all-Vargr crews to SDBs."
So, a minority portion of your population is not going to be trusted to
participate in planetary defense. Just what is the quota for Vargr crew
aboard SDBs? 10%? 30%? Does Jewell wire their vacc-suits so the captain
(human, nautrally) can "neutralize" them quickly if they start to get
twitchy? Just how does the fact that their planetary defense command and
government don't trust them in any "important" positions go over with the
Vargr citizenry? You think that might cause some problems?
"First they set up a string of strongholds (at the very beginning they
negotiated with local Vargr worlds to protect the trade). That worked well
enough for more than 150 years. Not until then did they Vargr nuisance
become great enough to provoke a concerted response from the Imperium
(though as it took the Imperium 138 years to complete the campaigns, one
could imagine that they didn't make any all-out effort). After that there is
another 700+ years for the Imperials to move into Corridor."
So, the arrangement worked for a time and then something happened.
Okay. What happened? The Imperium make a few late payments and tick them
off? Or did the Vargr change their minds?
"Most of the original immigrants would come from Vland, some from
further away. But by far the greatest number of those living there now was a
result of population growth."
Makes sense. Population growth on the few settled Imperial worlds
until those worlds colonized nearby systems. Oh, aren't the Vargr there
already? How many systems were empty? We have many local Vargr worlds
protecting the trade route of a few Imperial ones. I'd think the Vargr
worlds were close by the Imperial ones for that to work. When those
Imperial worlds expanded and where did the Vargr go? If they didn't leave,
what did they think about the human settlers on what used to be "their"
planets? That could be a reason for the Corridor campaigns, protecting
human settlements on previously Vargr-only worlds.
"Actually, the Imperium was asked by the Old Earth Union to mediate.
When the Aslans found out that the OEU was an Imperial client state, they
challenged the Imperial negotiator. He accepted the challenge and worked out
the rules for the coming conflict with limited forces specified for both
sides. And he won. I doubt if he even referred back to the Emperor before
the whole thing was over, although that last bit is down to me."
I really like that. Fits very well with the Aslan and makes them
respect a border out of a desire to maintain their honor, rather than
becasue they were whipped. Fits really well.
"<Grin> I can just see the TML grognards wincing and heading for cover.
You're pressing one of my buttons here, Larsen. I've long been of the
opinion that given the canonical description of Aslan society, a few simple
calculations will show that there is no way the Aslans can invade the Domain
of Deneb. Heck, theImperium has kept the Aslans at bay in the Trojan Reach
for 500 years..."
I want to know why it happened too. I couldn't see any reason for the
border in the Trojan Reach not to stay quiet either. Guess the MT guys
wanted to whip up as much war as they could. Unfortuantely, it's part of
Our Old Game's canon. Should we try and come with a reason why it happened,
or rewrite the canon? You tell me. After all you write for the game!
"Care to guess how many ship's the 3I used during all phases of this
"mere" rebellion? And while still guarding the frontiers?"
"If I could see what that had to do with our present discussion, I
might."
It was one of my poorly written attempts to describe the Imperium's
will and industrial might.
The ships I was writing about were special transrift designs, not run
of the mill freighters. A bit more costly, but not too much.
Given that our colonist is a corpsicle and has a couple tons of baggage
or supplies, couldn't they be treated as frieght? Shipped out as deadhead
freight? The ship's heading that way anyway, so fill it up? There are
plenty of similar examples in our history. Cargoes being moved that would
never pay their own way on a pric per ton basis, but the ship's journey was
already profitable thanks to another commodity be hauled. Can that happen
in the 3I too? Does each and every ton of cargo have to be paid for, if the
cargo as a whole pays the bills?
"Why would the Imperium care what motives their remote ancestors
might've had? I'm sure the British government don't lose much sleep over the
loyalties of the people in the former Danelag, and they were Danish less
than a millenium ago!"
Point well taken. I wasn't factoring in the depth of time.
Of course, the majority of the folks in the Danelaw were subjegated
native peasants held down by a crust of immigrant jarls and prosperous
farmers. When the English kingdoms finally re-exerted control over the
area, they absorbed the elites becasue the majority of the population wasn't
a problem. By 1100, I don't think the 3I would have any qualms about the
loyalty of the pre-existing worlds in Deneb. But how about at first
contact?
How about a world in Deneb who's cultural myths about it's founding are
full of the brave ancestors fleeing the evil Ziru Sirka or RoM. They
celebrate Landing Day with trappings even after all the centuries. Don't
get me wrong, they don't beat their breasts about it or burn Emperors in
effigy, 2000 years is a long time after all, but it's a steady undercurrent.
It's how they differentiate themselves from others, how they see themselves
in the universe. Like what makes a Bavarian think he's different from a
Tyrolian.
Then, one day, ships appear with traders, or diplomats, or explorers
from the 3I. A polity that claims it's legitimacy from the very governments
that this world's brave and honored ancestors were fleeing. How will that
first contact go? Will either side feel slightly uncomfortable about the
other? The Arabs are still hurt and angry about the Crusades. How long
ago was that? (They've plenty of more recent reasons to squawk too, believe
me.)
"They came the other way, through the Aslan Hierate and across the
Great Rift (And then another 50 parsecs beyond the Hierate borders as it was
then) (As mentioned by Jon Zeigler in _GT:Rim of Fire_ and by me in my
writeup of the Sacnoth Dominate ;-) [I'm sorry to do this to you; it's not
deliberate, but I have spent a lot of thought and done a lot of work on the
history of the Spinward Marches, and some of it has snuck into my articles.]
No problem, I read that blurb in GT:RoF too. I just figured they
looked around a bit first, did a little surveying. Or did they just make a
beeline for Gram in order to settle it by -399? From the Trojan Reach they
could have gone into the Deneb or Reft sectors as easily as the Marches.
Could they have still come across the refugee-settled worlds before deciding
on Gram? There's evidence there was a long term Aslan presence on Mithril.
Maybe the clan that helped the Swordies told them about the region so they
could make the beeline to Gram.
And what a very long trip! Gee, I guess economics didn't play any part
in it. The Aslan males of the clan they'd helped simply provided all the
maintenance, fuel, and food the original Swordies needed. The Aslan females
were told to ignore the cost. Must have been one big favor.
Speaking about the history of the Marches, can you explain the maps in
SMC, please? Specifically, the pre-3rd Frontier War one that shows the
Sword Worlds split into two fragments. The current Sword World government
is supposed to be founded in 852, after the collapse of the Trilateralists.
So why two polities in 979? There's got to be a "fix". What is it?
"Wouldn't it have been more economical to join a world already
settled?"
"It certainly would, but they didn't want that."
Oh. So, I guess sometimes economics isn't the controlling factor in
colonization. So a sufficiently determined group from a small Long Night
fragment could put together a convoy and go just about anywhere. So
sometimes you can want something enough, that you let the costs go hang.
But not in the Third Imperium, of course. In the Imperium, ironclad
economic orthodoxy controls ALL activities. Tell me, was Cleon's middle
name Marx?
"Same question hold for the Turkish corporation that traveled all the
way to Darrian, why so far if there were other human worlds who just as
eagerly embrace the corporation's technology as the Darrian's did?"
"We're told they wanted to leave the area of the Rule of Man
completely. Maybe they thought the Lidash League worlds were too close to
Vland."
So, sometimes fervor overrides shipping costs. Or the need for
maintenance. But only if you're not part of the Third Imperium.
"Yeah, but the local only costs a stamp to enlist."
Yes. The Marcher enlists and serves in the Marches and the Lishuni in
Lishuni. Both are patriotic and do their bit locally with out being shipped
across the Imperium. Where did the first Imperial forces in the Marches and
Deneb come from? Vland most likely. Maybe a few specially raised units
form a little further away that are filled with folks who volunteered for
the opportunity to settle there after their enlistments? Sound possible?
"I'm suggesting the Imperium colonizes via the "australian method".
"I thought that was the "Australian method"???"
Sorry it's a typo, there was supposed to be a "not" between I'm and
suggesting. Another example of my poor writing. :(
And who have a couple of hundred thousand credits saved up.
Or signed up for an Imperial sponsored venture.
"I disagree completely and totally. I don't think the early Imperium
concerned itself with colonization except in special circumstances."
What about the many descriptions of the Marches containing a selection
of every Imperial culture and race? I'm not saying that local population
growth didn't create the lion's share of the folks "Behind the Claw". But I
do think that, over the centuries, large numbers of folks came out from the
older sectors.
"Sure, but you don't have to ship in the total population. Ship in a
few tens of thousands and nature will take its course. "Grow" is exactly the
right word."
I agree. Exactly what I've been driving at, although my poor writing
technique never brought it across clearly enough. Over the centuries, the
Imperium has run a couple of dozen Forbodln-like projects. Further
immigrants have been the wealthy restless, or military and megacorp
volunteers, or small groups of subsidized corpsicles. A trickle, but a
steady trickle lasting centuries. It would add up.
Now, if the Imperium could ship in a few tens of thousands to the
Marches, why not across 8 parsecs spinward of Ilelish?
"Actually, there is considerable evidence that that is just what is
happening in 1st World countries today..."
Yes, ZPG, and in some cases less than ZPG is an intriguing and strange
1st World phenomena. Wealth and selfishness are undobtedly part of it.
But, could be that we've no frontiers left?
"Because it increases the cost of fuel considerably and is thus not
interesting except for very special occasions."
Exactly. And in an Imperium of 1100 worlds, the law of large numbers
means there will be quite a few special occasions. Sometimes it will be
done just because someone wants to, and damn the cost.
Well, that's my latest load of garbage! Hope you're not spending too
much time responding to all of my posts, but thanks for doing so!
Larsen.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3634
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3635
Date: | 2/10/01 2:48:44 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Saturday, February 10 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3635
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Re: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
Re: Deep Space refuelling and Fast Drug
Re: Islands cluster
Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
Re: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
Re: Deep Space refuelling and Fast Drug
Re: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
Re: Science Fiction
Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 20:36:10 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
"That treaty. Feh. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. Land
mines are an excellent method of denying an area to the enemy. Emplace
them, pull the safeties, and leave. They die, you don't get shot at. Or
use them to channel the enemy into a kill zone. The Germans were so good at
this that the Soviets learned to just accept the losses of charging over
minefields rather than dance to the Wehrmacht's tune."
Being a squid myself, I'd never thought I see any of the damn things,
but during a trip to Straits of Hormuz I got the pleasure.
It's the latter half of the 80's and the locals were angry again. In
order to keep the oil flowing; which both sides wanted to disrupt, we got to
spend time convoying tankers up and down the Gulf. Horrific place too.
Clouds of wind blown sand even miles out in the Gulf tearing up our
ventilators. The ship itself was designed to fight in the North Atlantic,
so any air conditioning was reserved for the computers. Down in the engine
rooms, we relied on salt tablets and heat stress measurements. Tee shirts
and skivvies fell apart thanks to the salty sweat our bodies poured out. A
fellow on the signal bridge actually fried an egg on the deck and videoed it
to be replayed over the ship's TV system.
We'd picked up a few silent types in "cammies" at Diego Garcia and what
ever for I don't know. We weren't even sure what branch they were in. One
night, I was taking a stroll around the weather decks hoping to find a
breeze and came across these fellows working around a crate. I excused
myself, but they called me over and showed me a claymore mine. Everyman is
proud of his tools, I guess.
What in hell they thought they'd be needed for I still don't know to
this day. The poor angry fellows in their swedish speedboats armed with
Oerkilon pom-poms never got within 10nm of us or the tankers before the 5's
or aircraft scared them off or worse.
We dropped are passengers off during the next visit to Diego Garcia
and, although pulling convoy duty several times later, never had their type
aboard again.
What happened to the USS Cole got me thinking about this again. Did
some not too bright light in the Pentagon think that the claymores could
prevent a suicide bommber or boarding? We never pulled into any Gulf ports
and they couldn't get near us at sea. Just what the hell was is all about?
Larsen E. "Who didn't quite enjoy shooting fish in a barrel" Whipsnade
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:49:50 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Was written:
>Another interesting factoid: since claymores are (supposedly*) command
>detonated (a sentient touched them off) they aren't covered by the "mine
ban"
>treaty.
I remember one grizzled old sargent back in the 70's telling of having
trouble in Nam with the enemy turning claymores around at night. Said they
solved the problem by rigging some with mercury tilt switchs. He said that
they checked in the morning after one had gone off the night before and all
they found were the legs.
Dan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:27:32 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
On 10 Feb 01, at 0:17, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> There's also the consideration that when you buy a "current" series
> right now, you buy it a season at a time. When you buy a discontinued
> series (or old seasons of a long running series) you get the whole
> thing.
I could see the annual arrival in a sector of a major media
production house's New Show Boat - a moderately fast company ship
that peddles the current (as of when the ship left Core or wherever)
crop of shows to the worlds on it's route along with a vast library
of older shows, new stuff from further parts of the Imperium, etc.
Makes it's sales to the local media outlets (franchisees and local
branch offices [a la Peter's Naasirka example] and buys any locally
produced stuff for the return trip. Given a sufficient demand, more
ships could make the circuit more frequently.
There wouldn't be the media circus of the annual conventions where
media producers here woo and entice local affiliates and independents
with all the new shows for the next year - unless the various media
houses ended up on a natural (competitive?) cycle and used the same
or similar routes, it'd be rather high deviation in when your world
got new stuff. But it could be harder to plan your station/outlets
budget, not knowing when the next batch of stuff were going to
arrive.
Again, I'd see the more populous regions having more and more regular
service, while the provincials would have less.
Might be profitable to set up a special run (if you have a fast ship)
to get highly sought programs to distant worlds before the
competition. Or the people making the routes and selling the
programs could be the ones who buy on speculation and try to make
a profit with it.
Imagine: The PCs just finished an adventure and as part of the reward
they get dumped a collection of odd shows that might or might not
sell in this region of space. "The Galloping K'Kree Gourmet!",
"Hiver Fairy Tales and Bedtime Stories", "Solomani Rim 0210",
"This Old Starship", "Macroeconomic Process at work".
(OK, well I'm *trying* anyway. :)
Would actual entertainers make any kind of tours larger than their
own sector?
> > So what *does* travel via x-boat? Official communications at many
> > levels; financial updates; personal 'mail' I think. (The military
> > organizations have their own network, if I'm not mistaken.)
> > Other ideas?
>
> Anything that goes priority mail, fed-ex, airmail, etc now. plus stuff
> that's now handled by fax or email. And stuff that used to be handled
> by telegrams, cable, and telex.
>
> Some will be electronic, some will be hardcopy. And some will be "small
> packages".
So a fair to large amount of commercial communications? I suppose
only the megacorporations would have the resources to operate their
own interoffice x-boat system. Smaller corporations could still have
smaller x-boat systems, or dedicated couriers, etc., but the majority
of small to mid and even large business traffic would be through
the IISS x-boat system. OK, that seems to gel for me. Thanks!
Rob D.
- --
Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net
The manager will be continually amazed that policies he took for common
knowledge are totally unknown to some members of his team.
- - Fredrick P. Brooks, Jr.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:19:20 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Deep Space refuelling and Fast Drug
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
>
>>From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
> "IMO mains havent been important since the Solomani lifted the First
>Imperium's ban on private jump-2 vessels."
>
> Then why all the blather about the Mains ever since the LBBs?
If you impose freight prices by fiat that give a fixed price per jump, not by distance, then jump-1
freighters become kind of viable (until people start playing games with turning freight into speculative
cargo, in order to undercut their competitors prices). Mains are important for jump-1 ships (such as
those of the First Empire), and it's something thats quick, easy and stands out.
If you want a 2 word reason for the blather about the mains , the two words I'd use if I was in a bad
mood are 'economic illiteracy'.
It wasnt until Chris Thrash and Jim Maclean got GT:Far Trader and decided to do it right that Trav got
per-parsec freight costs, and once you change the economics of a society, other things tend to
change with it.
>
> "...security problems are, well, problematic."
>
> What security problems? A small fuel cache serving free traders 10s of
>parsec from any border is going to have security problems? Please give me
>an idea of them.
You are running a fuel depot, where people carrying valuable cargo are expected to to jump in to with
empty tanks. It is, by definition, a week from anywhere. Are we talking an ideal target for ethically
challenged merchants or what ?
>
>
> Larsen
>P.S. The G:FT trade maps of the Marches are great!
Oh yeah ... put 'Mixon et Frere Reinsurance' into your campaigns :) Terry deserves a huge amount of
kudos for the work he put in.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:38:20 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Islands cluster
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
> Canon refers to the Vargr's strong racial pride. Despite their
>nebulous organization, they tend to present a united front when their race
>is perceived to be threatened. I think news of Vargr being pushed out of
>the Corridor would have been very frightening to those on Extolay.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree about that. To me the Vargr racial pride
is about not taking any guff because of their origin, not to be alarmed because
some monkey-boys resented getting raided.
>It's within the Imperium's border and the Vargr there might get worried that
>the pinkies will get eventually around to running them off, just like in the
>Corridor.
I don't think the Imperium ran the Vargr out of Corridor any more than I think
they would run any they might find out of the Marches. They just took over and
installed their own governments.
> I agree. There is no canon evidence for the existence or non-existence
>of any Vargr states in Deneb. With all that empty ground, you, as a
>recognised Traveller contributor, can fill it with what ever you wish.
> Afterwards, you can change the canon motto of the Corridor Fleet from
>"No Vargr below The Line" to "No, Vargr below The Line, unless they happen
>to be on or from the many worlds we absorbed and exploited to assist in the
>colonization of Deneb" Going to take one hell of a patch on the uniforms
>though.
Since I was the one who came up with that motto, I don't mind saying that I saw
it as a resolve not to allow independent Vargr worlds "below The Line", not to
kill off every Vargr that happened to wander rimwards of it. Besides, when was
the last time you heard of a motto that really fit any real life situation it
was supposed to cover?
> "You forget that until 250 all these worlds were outside the Imperium."
>
> Outside doesn't mean beyond raiding distance.
No, it means "Not an Imperial problem".
> "A Vargr raider has the same handicap every other pirate and privateer
>has: He has to pay his own bills. Taking a ship on a three month journey to
>steal a few chickens simply isn't cost-effective."
>
> So, the canon references to Vargr wanderlust and the desire to see
>what's 'round the bend don't make them a little less tied to economic
>reasons for every action?
At the very least he has to somehow persuade someone to give his ship its annual
overhaul.
>What about a corsair on the losing side of the constant political turmoil and
>on the run? Would it still be too long a journey for him?
If I was him, I'd look for a world within reach with the facilities to maintain
my ship and try to strike a bargain with the local prince to enter his service.
If for some strange reason I decided to cross a stretch of worlds without
starport facilities, I'd find someone on the far side with a starport and make
nice to him. Maybe enter the service of one of the Reginan merchant princes.
>"The very thing that they're fighting for over 100 years in the Corridor."
> "You keep getting your dates mixed up. The Vargr problem didn't get big
>enough to provoke a reaction until 210. Yet we know that there were Vargr in
>Corridor in the year 0. If the Imperium took 210 years to lose patience with
>what starfaring Vargr were doing in Corridor, why would they, in 100, worry
>about what planet-bound Vargr were doing a couple of subsectors beyond their
>furthest outpost?"
>
> "Sorry, I wasn't clear. I meant that the fighting took about 100 years.
>I know the Corridor Campaign started in 210 and finished in 348. Just
>poor writing on my part.
Yes, I realized that. But you were arguing that the Imperials in the Year 100
should care about what happened to worlds two subsectors from the closest
Imperial world because of a war they fought a century later in an area that was
actually INSIDE the Imperium. I think the two cases are quite different.
> "Refereeing Assimilated Vargr..."
>
> Everything I've read about the Julians in the Challenge make no reference
>to Vargr assimilation or social interaction with humans having a stabilizing
>effect on their "mental traits". The Julians are said to have to work around
>the problems the Vargr portion of their citizenry presents.
Which, of course, shows that it IS possible to work around these problems. One
reason could be that those traits ARE stabilized somewhat by being around
humans. Which doesn't seem too unlikely to me when I contemplate what I've heard
about the different behavior of wild and tame wolves.
> "Actually, it would be the Jewell government that would deal with any
>Vargr problem, not the imperial planners. One simple solution would be not
>posting all-Vargr crews to SDBs."
>
> So, a minority portion of your population is not going to be trusted to
>participate in planetary defense. Just what is the quota for Vargr crew
>aboard SDBs? 10%? 30%? Does Jewell wire their vacc-suits so the captain
>(human, nautrally) can "neutralize" them quickly if they start to get twitchy?
>Just how does the fact that their planetary defense command and government
>don't trust them in any "important" positions go over with the Vargr
>citizenry? You think that might cause some problems?
Propably. Though I don't see why they shouldn't put a Vargr in command of an SDB
as long as he has a partly-human crew. Or maybe the Vargr that do well in the
military is the more 'Uncle Tomish' (your expression, not mine) of them, so
those that become officers really are trustworthy.
> "First they set up a string of strongholds (at the very beginning they
>negotiated with local Vargr worlds to protect the trade). That worked well
>enough for more than 150 years. Not until then did they Vargr nuisance
>become great enough to provoke a concerted response from the Imperium
>(though as it took the Imperium 138 years to complete the campaigns, one
>could imagine that they didn't make any all-out effort). After that there is
>another 700+ years for the Imperials to move into Corridor."
>
> So, the arrangement worked for a time and then something happened.
>Okay. What happened?
Not canon yet, but how does this sound to you: Humans pushed into Provence and
Tugilik (?) in increasing number, touching off more and more conflicts.
Meanwhile quite a few Vargr worlds developed jump technology of their own,
causing an increase in corsair activity. The Imperium started pushing back, the
Vargr pushed right back again and the whole thing escalated. The Imperium
proved unable to protect the Humans in Provence and Tugilik and finally let
itself get pushed back to the current border. Meanwhile, any independent Vargr
worlds in Corridor (assuming there were any left in 210) was "persuaded" to
join the Imperium.
> "Most of the original immigrants would come from Vland, some from
>further away. But by far the greatest number of those living there now was a
>result of population growth."
>
> Makes sense. Population growth on the few settled Imperial worlds
>until those worlds colonized nearby systems. Oh, aren't the Vargr there
>already? How many systems were empty?
Propably most of the crappy ones. Maybe some of the nice ones too.
>We have many local Vargr worlds protecting the trade route of a few Imperial
>ones.
Assuming that they relied solely on Vargr worlds (which they wouldn't) 8 or 9
would be enough to cross Corridor.
>I'd think the Vargr worlds were close by the Imperial ones for that to work.
>When those Imperial worlds expanded and where did the Vargr go?
Those that resisted got what the Amerindians got. Those who were good doggies
became Imperial citizens.
>If they didn't leave, what did they think about the human settlers on what
>used to be "their" planets?
Propably resented the hell out of it.
> "Actually, the Imperium was asked by the Old Earth Union to mediate.
>When the Aslans found out that the OEU was an Imperial client state, they
>challenged the Imperial negotiator. He accepted the challenge and worked out
>the rules for the coming conflict with limited forces specified for both
>sides. And he won. I doubt if he even referred back to the Emperor before
>the whole thing was over, although that last bit is down to me."
>
> I really like that. Fits very well with the Aslan and makes them
>respect a border out of a desire to maintain their honor, rather than
>becasue they were whipped. Fits really well.
Not my ideas. It's right out of _Cats&Rats_.
> I want to know why it happened too. I couldn't see any reason for the
>border in the Trojan Reach not to stay quiet either. Guess the MT guys
>wanted to whip up as much war as they could.
That's undoubtedly the meta-reason.
>Unfortuantely, it's part of Our Old Game's canon. Should we try and come with
>a reason why it happened, or rewrite the canon?
We should try, of course. But if we can't come up with something better than
"Well, that's just the way it is!", then we [and I use the term loosely, meaning
Marc and Loren ;-)] should do/authorize a rewrite once and for all and get rid
of an inexplicable discrepancy.
>You tell me. After all you write for the game!
Yeah, but Marc and Loren makes the decisions. I can only advise (and nag ;-).
> Given that our colonist is a corpsicle and has a couple tons of baggage
>or supplies, couldn't they be treated as frieght? Shipped out as deadhead
>freight? The ship's heading that way anyway, so fill it up?
That's assuming that they are heading out empty in the first place. A very iffy
assumption it seems to me.
>There are plenty of similar examples in our history. Cargoes being moved that
>would never pay their own way on a price per ton basis, but the ship's journey was
>already profitable thanks to another commodity be hauled. Can that happen
>in the 3I too?
Sure. And its a good way to explain individual local situations. But I don't see
why the traffic would always be empty in the same direction Imperium-wide.
> How about a world in Deneb who's cultural myths about it's founding are
>full of the brave ancestors fleeing the evil Ziru Sirka or RoM. They
>celebrate Landing Day with trappings even after all the centuries. Don't
>get me wrong, they don't beat their breasts about it or burn Emperors in
>effigy, 2000 years is a long time after all, but it's a steady undercurrent.
>It's how they differentiate themselves from others, how they see themselves
>in the universe. Like what makes a Bavarian think he's different from a
>Tyrolian.
> Then, one day, ships appear with traders, or diplomats, or explorers
>from the 3I. A polity that claims it's legitimacy from the very governments
>that this world's brave and honored ancestors were fleeing. How will that
>first contact go? Will either side feel slightly uncomfortable about the
>other?
Propably, but I have a very simple way to get around that problem: I'm going to
assume that no such world exist. (Although I do have Deneb refusing to join the
Imperium for several centuries. That is the reason Usani and not Deneb is the
capital of their subsector).
> No problem, I read that blurb in GT:RoF too. I just figured they
>looked around a bit first, did a little surveying. Or did they just make a
>beeline for Gram in order to settle it by -399?
Except that they didn't know they were making for Gram that's a pretty accurate
description. When they jumped to Spinward Marches 1223, they experienced jump
sickness, a warning sign that the jump drive was close to malfunctioning. After
checking out Gram they decided that it was a reasonably nice planet to settle
on. Maybe not the best one in the neighborhood, but not worth risking another
jump to get away from.
>From the Trojan Reach they could have gone into the Deneb or Reft sectors as
>easily as the Marches.
So they could, but they didn't. If they had, you would be asking why they
settled in Deneb, since they could just as easily have gone to the Marches.
>Could they have still come across the refugee-settled worlds before deciding
>on Gram?
I haven't worked out their route through Trojan Reach (or the settlement pattern
of TR for that matter), but it's quite possible they came across some of the
Vilani-settled worlds in the Reach. But since they were looking for an empty
world to settle, what difference does it make?
>There's evidence there was a long term Aslan presence on Mithril.
That was earlier and died out in a few generations (a misjump colony) (No, not
canon either; my explanation).
> And what a very long trip! Gee, I guess economics didn't play any part
>in it. The Aslan males of the clan they'd helped simply provided all the
>maintenance, fuel, and food the original Swordies needed. The Aslan females
>were told to ignore the cost. Must have been one big favor.
It was. They helped defend a small vassal clan of the Wahtoi while they were
engaged in a clan fight and unable to send help. "Economics" doesn't mean that
you invariably get exactly what you pay for; it means that if you get more,
somebody else is picking up the tab.
> Speaking about the history of the Marches, can you explain the maps in
>SMC, please? Specifically, the pre-3rd Frontier War one that shows the
>Sword Worlds split into two fragments. The current Sword World government
>is supposed to be founded in 852, after the collapse of the Trilateralists.
>So why two polities in 979? There's got to be a "fix". What is it?
I haven't gotten that far, but I plan to introduce a civil war to explain it.
> "Wouldn't it have been more economical to join a world already settled?"
> "It certainly would, but they didn't want that."
>
> Oh. So, I guess sometimes economics isn't the controlling factor in
>colonization. So a sufficiently determined group from a small Long Night
>fragment could put together a convoy and go just about anywhere.
Sure. But someone still has to pay for the ships.
>So sometimes you can want something enough, that you let the costs go hang.
Not really. Somebody always pays.
> "Same question hold for the Turkish corporation that traveled all the
>way to Darrian, why so far if there were other human worlds who just as
>eagerly embrace the corporation's technology as the Darrian's did?"
> "We're told they wanted to leave the area of the Rule of Man
>completely. Maybe they thought the Lidash League worlds were too close to
>Vland."
>
> So, sometimes fervor overrides shipping costs.
Nope. somebody always has to pay.
>Or the need for maintenance.
They propably got maintenance at Sylea and on Vland.
> And who have a couple of hundred thousand credits saved up.
>
> Or signed up for an Imperial sponsored venture.
That only works if the Imperium actually sponsors emigration ventures, something
we're debating at the moment.
> "I disagree completely and totally. I don't think the early Imperium
>concerned itself with colonization except in special circumstances."
>
> What about the many descriptions of the Marches containing a selection
>of every Imperial culture and race? I'm not saying that local population
>growth didn't create the lion's share of the folks "Behind the Claw". But I
>do think that, over the centuries, large numbers of folks came out from the
>older sectors.
Of course they did. We just appear to disagree on the actual numbers.
>Over the centuries, the Imperium has run a couple of dozen Forboldn-like
>projects.
A couple of dozen I don't mind. It's still a drop in the bucket.
>Further immigrants have been the wealthy restless, or military and megacorp
>volunteers, or small groups of subsidized corpsicles. A trickle, but a
>steady trickle lasting centuries. It would add up.
So it would.
> Now, if the Imperium could ship in a few tens of thousands to the
>Marches, why not across 8 parsecs spinward of Ilelish?
They just didn't see the need. Being able to do something does not mean you
absolutely must do it.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:00:05 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> So, how many free traders are operating in an average subsector
> at any given time? Four? Forty? Four hundred? (not likely!)
Actually, I worked out that (at least for MTU), 400 is just about
right for areas like the Spinward Marches. Based on trade being about
an average of 5% GWP, and free traders carrying about 2% of overall
trade volume. Both figures could easily be a lot higher.
> Is the trade and passenger traffic they bring to worlds off the
> megacorp's routes of any importance?
I would expect so -- for the worlds of middling pop in particular,
free traders be the only contact they get with the rest of the
Imperium.
> We already know that world's subsidize merchant traffic through
> the purchase of shipping. Would a single fuel cache that connects
> that world to a Main and increases traffic not be worth a subsidy
> too?
Absolutely!
> The use of iceballs will drop the price.
They will indeed. Iceballs should be an incredibly cheap source of
fuel, given their volume and cost of refining. I would go so far as
to say that fuel costs are grossly overpriced in canon. Or fuel
processors are grossly underpriced. I estimated costs for initial
construction, maintenance, staffing, consumables, some red tape costs,
and tankage for a refining and refuelling operation. Then arbitrarily
tripled them. It still seems that setting up a fuel refining
operation on an iceball in deep space should be a very profitable
operation even charging less for refined fuel than a regular starport
does.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:59:13 -0800
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
> "The Galloping K'Kree Gourmet!",
> "Hiver Fairy Tales and Bedtime Stories", "Solomani Rim 0210",
> "This Old Starship", "Macroeconomic Process at work".
> (OK, well I'm *trying* anyway. :)
>
> --
> Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net
>
>
>
Keyboard Kill!
It was "The Galloping K'Kree Gourmet!" did it, although "This Old Starship"
creates an interesting image.
Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:00:49 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space refuelling and Fast Drug
>From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
"It wasnt until Chris Thrash and Jim Maclean got GT:Far Trader and
decided to do it right that Trav got per-parsec freight costs, and once you
change the economics of a society, other things tend to change with it."
I have copy of GT:FT and thouroughly enjoy it. It's descriptions and
procedures work, while explaining a lot of stuff.
On the ct-starship's, we worry quite a bit about "backward
compatability". It's a clunker of a term but the best we've been able to
come up with to label the concept. We are kicking around changes and
additions to HG2 and TCS, but we sweat quite alot about whether our
suggestions will fit as many canon items as possible while also bending or
breaking as few as possible. Sure it slows things down, but it's a good way
to build concensus. It worked for the Vilani for thousands of years. 8^)
Now, if GT:FT changed the economics of Imperial society, and thus
changed Imperial society, is the Imperium of Gurps:Traveller then the
Imperium of CT? Or is it something different?
Before everyone gets there knickers in a knot, I am NOT slamming Gurps.
I have most of it's Traveller books and I prefer it's timeline over MT and
T:NE.
Wouldn't a precious cargo be shipped in an armed merchant to begin
with? Or escorted? I can see our "ethically challenged" merchants
attempting to ambush their way to fame and riches, but wouldn't the world
that subsidized the depot in the first place patrol it too?
The presence of a Gazelle, Fiery, or Type-P might be normal. Dragon
class SDB's could easily rotated on station by jump shuttles too. The
squids are getting paid whether they're port or on patrol.
I can't see a world establishing a depot in order to foster trade and
then ignoring it so badly that hijacking and piracy occur there.
"Oh yeah ... put 'Mixon et Frere Reinsurance' into your campaigns :)
Terry deserves a huge amount of kudos for the work he put in."
Will do! He deserves it!
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:13:48 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
>From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net>
> > "The Galloping K'Kree Gourmet!",
> > "Hiver Fairy Tales and Bedtime Stories", "Solomani Rim 0210",
> > "This Old Starship", "Macroeconomic Process at work".
> > (OK, well I'm *trying* anyway. :)
> > Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net
> >
> >Keyboard Kill!
>It was "The Galloping K'Kree Gourmet!" did it, although "This Old Starship"
>creates an interesting image.
A definite keyboard kill! Mr. Davenport deserves it to be recorded.
How a sitcom called "Brubeck's"? The parent corp would subsidize it as
advertising for all it's branches. Maybe even send the regulars on virtual
tours so it seems as if they're knocking back a burger and brew at the
Brubeck's "Right Here On Your Homeworld!"
A "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" might travel well. Soap operas
set on a luxury liner, cop shows, travelouges should all do well.
And of course there's also that old favorite broadcast on the Naasirka
Classic Netowrk; "Grandfather Knows Best."
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 01:08:53 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Science Fiction
Aghhh, SPLORT!
Bugger.
Two in one day - have you guys no compassion!
Ben
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 08, 2001 11:16 PM
Subject: Re: Science Fiction
> On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:59:39 -0500 (EST), "DaveShayne"
> <daveshayne@email.msn.com> wrote:
>
> >Subject: Re: Science Fiction
>
> >> Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 07:32:10 -0800
> >> From: "Bruce Macintosh" <bruce.macintosh@worldnet.att.net>
> >> Subject: Re: Science Fiction
>
> >> You had paper tape? I used to *dream* of programming with paper tape.
> >> When we wanted to solve a problem we had to build a big stone circle
> >> in the middle of a plain and wait for the winter solistice.
>
> >You think that's bad. We'd've been lucky to have the plain. We had to get
> >up at six in the morning and level the mountains with our bare hands to get
> >a plain to build in the middle of.
>
> Hands? What kind of luxury is this, "hands"? And on top of that, the
> mountains we had to level for the plains to build on hadn't been raised,
> yet; we had to raise them ourselves, with nothing better than pseudopodia
> extruded from our undifferentiated cytoplasm to work with!
>
> --
> Jeff Zeitlin
> jzeitlin@cyburban.com
> (ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:50:49 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
I have gone through all of my archived keyboard kills to date, and have
found the following TMLers with five kills or more:
Doug Berry: 17 kills
Kenji Schwarz: 8 kills
John Groth: 8 kills
Loren Wiseman: 6 kills
Leonard Erickson: 5 kills
Kiri Aradia Morgan: 5 kills
Frank G. Pitt: 5 kills
Glenn Goffin: 5 kills
Chris Seamans: 5 kills
Walter Smith: 5 kills
A total of 62 TMLers registered at least one kill during the rated
period.
Note that this task was made more difficult by the fact that many TMLers
who reported suffering a kill did not name the perpetrator. This forced
me to check my archives for the posts that triggered these unattributed
kills.
Congratulations to you all!
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3635
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3636
Date: | 2/10/01 8:39:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Saturday, February 10 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3636
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Keyboard Kill Victims (October 1999 to Today)
RE: Keyboard Kill Victims (October 1999 to Today)
Re: Claymores
Re: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
Re: Planetary navies
One for the programmers
Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
RE: instructions
RE: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
Re: Keyboard Kill Victims (October 1999 to Today)
Kiri, Doug, and BayCon (was: Re: Keyboard Kill Victims (October 1999 to Today))
Planetary Maps
Re: Deep Space Refulling
Re: Deep Space Refueling and Fast Drug
Re: The Active Traveller Campaign Census '01
RE: Claymores
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:54:57 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>I have gone through all of my archived keyboard kills to date, and have
>found the following TMLers with five kills or more:
>
>Doug Berry: 17 kills
>Kenji Schwarz: 8 kills
>John Groth: 8 kills
>Loren Wiseman: 6 kills
>Leonard Erickson: 5 kills
>Kiri Aradia Morgan: 5 kills
>Frank G. Pitt: 5 kills
>Glenn Goffin: 5 kills
>Chris Seamans: 5 kills
>Walter Smith: 5 kills
Wow! Do they all get snazzy leather flight jackets and silk scarfs for
becoming aces?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:09:33 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
>
> >From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> >I have gone through all of my archived keyboard kills to date, and have
> >found the following TMLers with five kills or more:
> >
<<snips list>>
>
> Wow! Do they all get snazzy leather flight jackets and silk scarfs for
> becoming aces?
Well, all TML Keyboard Kill aces are _authorized_ to wear flight jackets
and silk scarves. Unfortunately, they are not issue items, and
therefore aces must purchase their own garments and accoutrements.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:09:06 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
on 2/10/01 12:49 PM, Daniel Phelps at phelpsd@gate.net wrote:
> I remember one grizzled old sargent back in the 70's telling of having
> trouble in Nam with the enemy turning claymores around at night. Said they
> solved the problem by rigging some with mercury tilt switchs. He said that
> they checked in the morning after one had gone off the night before and all
> they found were the legs.
>
> Dan
>
Another popular trick was to place a grenade under the claymore, spoon up,
so if anyone disturbed the mine, boom.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:21:58 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Keyboard Kill Victims (October 1999 to Today)
Meanwhile, here is the list of those who have suffered at least five
keyboard kills during the rated period:
Doug Berry: Times killed - 12
Dean Jones: Times killed - 9
Bruce Johnson: Times killed - 7
Kiri Aradia Morgan: Times killed - 7
Dom Mooney: Times killed - 7
Seth Kimmel: Times killed - 5
Thom Harris: Times killed - 5
David J. Smart: Times killed - 5
I find it particularly interesting that Doug Berry and Kiri Aradia
Morgan appear on both the ace list and this list.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:43:55 -0800
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: RE: Keyboard Kill Victims (October 1999 to Today)
It's a CONSPIRACY, I tell ya...and no, I am not CRAZY.
;)
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of John Groth
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 15:22
To: TML
Subject: Keyboard Kill Victims (October 1999 to Today)
Meanwhile, here is the list of those who have suffered at least five
keyboard kills during the rated period:
Doug Berry: Times killed - 12
Dean Jones: Times killed - 9
Bruce Johnson: Times killed - 7
Kiri Aradia Morgan: Times killed - 7
Dom Mooney: Times killed - 7
Seth Kimmel: Times killed - 5
Thom Harris: Times killed - 5
David J. Smart: Times killed - 5
I find it particularly interesting that Doug Berry and Kiri Aradia
Morgan appear on both the ace list and this list.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 15:43:50 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Claymores
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>on 2/10/01 7:07 AM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, the M-18A1 Claymore
> > Antipersonnel Mine is a box about the size of a shoebox.
>
>I'd call more the size of a tall paperback book, or a medium sized
>soft-cover bible, if you prefer.
How does it compare in size to the Koran, the Book of Mormon, and the Sayings
of Confucius? That's the burning question here. :^)
When I left "Uncle Sam's Misguided Children" some 25 odd years ago, a training
Claymore kit apparently fell into my kit and followed me home. The (inert)
mine is
sitting here in my lap and I have my trusty tape measure in the other
hand. The
M18A1 is approximately 8 1/2" wide by 4 3/4" high (and 1 1/2" through the
body.)
> > Rather than burying it, you set it up pointing in a specific
> direction. When triggered
> > (by a trip wire or by command) it sends a large number of ball bearings
> into a
> >conical kill zone.
Well, fan-shaped, actually. When the M18A1 detonates, it delivers 700 steel
fragments in a
fan-shaped pattern approximately 2 meters high and 60 degrees wide at a
range of 50 meters.
These fragments are effective up to a range of 100 meters forward of the
mine (per my TM.)
And let's not forget the supposedly "friendly" side of the Claymore.
Backblast occurs within
an area of 16 meters to the rear and sides of the mine.
> > Linking several together on one circuit creates
> > what we like to call a "mechanical ambush." Bad guys walk into your kill
> > box, you press one switch, and upwards of a dozen mines go off.
Yup. Even the generic ground pounders (as opposed to us elite ordnance
chaps) were trained
to set that std. defensive perimeter. With an average of 9 Claymores (one
from the squad
leader and one from each member of the 2 4-man fire teams) makes for a nice
"Welcome
Mat." :^)
Hey, waddaya know! According the circuit tester, both the "clackers" in my
training kit
(that's M57 Electrical Firing Devices to you sticklers) still work! Now, if
only I can find a
brick of C4 and a screwdriver! :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:57:56 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
Given the variety of Tech Levels I can imagine a roaring trade in reality shows.
'Real Pirates', 'Adventures on the Edge of Civilization's. Docu-soaps
masquerading as cinema-verite accounts of 'primitive' lifestyles.
Adventure seed: characters hired to transport, bodyguard or even make such a
programme on a GTL5 or lower world.
Ben
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:54:56 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Planetary navies
Well for Trin I'm going for the following figures...
2% GNP for defense.
60% of that goes to the Navy.
Initial fleet purchase of 10 times the annual budget.
Prices taken from CT's Fighting Ships.
Annual maintenance at 10% of original purchase price.
No idea how to calculate personnel and materiel costs whatsoever.
But I don't need that much detail anyway.
Ben
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: Planetary navies
> Ben Aaronovitch writes:
> >Is there a consensus on the size of planetary navies with regard to their
UWP?
>
> No. The tables in "Fifth Frontier War" and elsewhere produce _very_
> understrength navies for high-population worlds while _TCS_ and _Striker_
> rules produce huge budgets. Canonical Imperial navy figures from _Rebellion
> Sourcebook_ indicates budgets smaller than TCS/Striker implies, but still a
lot
> more than FFW implies.
>
>
> Hans
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 11:07:32 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: One for the programmers
Ladies and Gentlemen...I have a problem that needs soulutions...I need a
piece of software that will calculate optimum ship routing...not in the
3I but just in the Sol system.
First instance: Ship in orbit around Earth, what is the quickest orbit
to Mars? via a grav assist on venus? or wait 100 days and then launch at
optimum? What is the course using the least fuel? What is the most
efficient (least fuel and time)?
Second instance: Ship in orbit around Earth, Optimum course for the
trailing Saturian LaGrange point? Same problem set...
All in a dynamic solar system...
Other Rob
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:07:19 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
On 10 Feb 2001, at 16:50, John Groth wrote:
> A total of 62 TMLers registered at least one kill during the rated
> period.
John, if you send me the figures, I'll take over the recording.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:29:38 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: instructions
Leonard Erickson
> > 5. On a New Zealand insect spray = This product not tested on animals.
>
> That's merely a marketing item. They didn't use animals to test the
> product for *safety*. Which makes a big difference to some folks.
And means it could be far more damaging to animals than one that has !
> > 10. On a Sears hairdryer = Do not use while sleeping
>
> <sigh> caused by a stupid customer doing exactly that, then suing.
So why isn't theor a warning about using them in baths ?
> > 24. On packaging for a Rowenta iron = Do not iron clothes on body.
>
> Because some idiot *tried*.
Er, in Australia they do it all the time.
As the Rodney Rude says :
"I'm so tough I get my girlfriend to iron my clothes - while I'm wearing
them!"
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:19:42 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
John Groth wrpte :
> I have gone through all of my archived keyboard kills to date, and have
> found the following TMLers with five kills or more:
>
> Doug Berry: 17 kills
So, the penguin sniper takes the highest number of kills ?
Seems appropiate somehow.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 07:46:05 -0800
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Kill Victims (October 1999 to Today)
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>Meanwhile, here is the list of those who have suffered at least five
>keyboard kills during the rated period:
>
>Doug Berry: Times killed - 12
>Dean Jones: Times killed - 9
>Bruce Johnson: Times killed - 7
>Kiri Aradia Morgan: Times killed - 7
>Dom Mooney: Times killed - 7
>Seth Kimmel: Times killed - 5
>Thom Harris: Times killed - 5
>David J. Smart: Times killed - 5
>
>I find it particularly interesting that Doug Berry and Kiri Aradia
>Morgan appear on both the ace list and this list.
>
Being in the same room with both of us is reason enough to come to Baycon,
guys.
Especially YOU, Kenji.
(naw, I don't wanna meet him in person or anything... @_@;;;)
Kiri ^_^
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:55:12 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Kiri, Doug, and BayCon (was: Re: Keyboard Kill Victims (October 1999 to Today))
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>
> From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>
<<snip>>
> >
> >I find it particularly interesting that Doug Berry and Kiri Aradia
> >Morgan appear on both the ace list and this list.
> >
> Being in the same room with both of us is reason enough to come to Baycon,
> guys.
True enough. And I know whereof I speak (see the last picture for
proof):
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/baycon_2000.htm
Heck, meeting these two (and other TMLers) at BayCon was worth a two-day
trip on Greyhound (each way!).
<<snip>>
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:59:37 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Planetary Maps
Help, folks.
I am still looking for a blank planetary 'orange peel' map in electronic
form- preferably in Adobe Illustrator, but any graphic format will do.
Specifically I'm looking for something about 1000 pixels wide at 72 dpi.
Check out the maps of Regina and Jenghe at http://www.spinwardmarches.com to
see what I'm up to.
Any landgrabbers who would like maps done of their worlds, let me know.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:18:57 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:00:05 GMT
> From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
> Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
>
> hal@buffnet.net writes:
>
> >How many people remember the wargame (boardgame) Imperium? If I recall
> >correctly, it supposedly was intended to simulate the interstellar wars
> >back when Jump 1 and Jump 2 were the fastest ships on the block. They had
> >fuel tanker counters that permitted a ship to refuel at stars that didn't
> >have any fuel sources. Would that not constitute the first known deep
> >space refueling?
>
> No - because Imperium only let you jump between stars (including ones
> with no planets), not to deep space (empty hexes).
>
> Possible explanation: Vilani jumpdrive (which we know worked on
> different principles to the 3I version) was only capable of
> precipitating a ship *out* of jumpspace when it hit a major gravity
> well. No star or other large object within J1 or J2 range, and the
> ship would be lost forever in J-Space.
>
> This would also explain the other point which puzzled me for a long
> time: why Vland is in the far coreward corner of the Ziru Sirka,
> rather than being roughly in its centre. There's a two-parsec rift
> just to coreward of Vland, so until J-2 was discovered (or a
> convenient large rock spotted in deep space) ships would *have* to
> follow the Main to rimward/trailing...
>
> Stephen
Anthony Jackson produced a very interesting picture during his process
of doing the analysis for the trade routes (http://maps.grandsurvey.com
). It's basically a dot map of the Imperium (a la Galactic), but with
the various mains over a specific size (20 I think) each done in a
different color.
Vland sits on one edge of the largest mains in know space, extending
rimward out of the Vland sector through the Dagudashaa, Zarushagar,
Gushemege and into the Iielish and Verge sectors. There's another huge
one just to trailing, and several more connected to the rimward areas of
the Vland main. It becomes easy to see where the Vilani would have
expanded to, as it shows the least cost routes to expand through.
But none of them lead spinward through the corridor or coreward to any
degree, even through that's where the Vargr are.
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:49:30 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refueling and Fast Drug
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Deep Space refuelling and Fast Drug
>
>>From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
> "It wasnt until Chris Thrash and Jim Maclean got GT:Far Trader and
>decided to do it right that Trav got per-parsec freight costs, and once you
>change the economics of a society, other things tend to change with it."
>
> I have copy of GT:FT and thouroughly enjoy it. It's descriptions and
>procedures work, while explaining a lot of stuff.
> On the ct-starship's, we worry quite a bit about "backward
>compatability". It's a clunker of a term but the best we've been able to
>come up with to label the concept. We are kicking around changes and
>additions to HG2 and TCS, but we sweat quite alot about whether our
>suggestions will fit as many canon items as possible while also bending or
>breaking as few as possible. Sure it slows things down, but it's a good way
>to build concensus. It worked for the Vilani for thousands of years. 8^)
Using per-parsec freight costs doesnt damage things too much, except maybe for A2s being a lot more
common than A1s. Sure, you need to explain that 'It's on a main, and that and Cr 0.25 gets you a cup
of coffee', and probably need to ignore and/or tweak some detail (like bits of the Traveller Adventure).
But CT never went into rules for 'how busy is that starport, anyway', let alone 'How much trade is there
in the Imperium'.
Basically, you can take your Merchant character, give him a copy of Terry Mixon's map, and explain
'These are the trade routes ... you probably worked mostly on *this* run in your first term with Naasirka.
You transferred down to Regulus Shipping, and were working around this area. Your two year charter
took you *here*' and so on. You tell the Naval character 'You mustered out at the Naval base on
Mora. You shipped out to here along this route, and then got onto a tramp to get you to your new post
as Captain Third Class in the Grote Defense Forces, attached to Elixabeth Squadron'
The 30 second summary is that Free Traders comeall shapes and sizes, and that most Imperial
merchant ships are jump-2 and jump-3, and that you can get paid extra to take stuff a long way, or to
go to dangerous places.
> Now, if GT:FT changed the economics of Imperial society, and thus
>changed Imperial society, is the Imperium of Gurps:Traveller then the
>Imperium of CT? Or is it something different?
Ummm, what it did was explain how the Imperium actually worked, and fix a couple of things.
Basically, the freight and passenger costs were broken,and fixing them changed some of the ways the
Imperium actually worked.
Fortunately, how Imperial Trade actually worked never got detailed.
But it is important to remember that 90%+ of trade within the Imperium is between the big worlds. Most
of the starports between them will be mere filling stops - a 10 000t freighter wont unload at most of it's
stops. There are still 'mains', but they look very different from the old ones ...
But thats where Free Traders come into it. A jump-2 or jump-3 freighter can make money going from a
big world, if it is prepared to get up and go once the freight broker books in the cargo. Or it can work
off the 'mains' that the megafreighters establish.
> Before everyone gets there knickers in a knot, I am NOT slamming Gurps.
> I have most of it's Traveller books and I prefer it's timeline over MT and
>T:NE.
>
> Wouldn't a precious cargo be shipped in an armed merchant to begin
>with? Or escorted? I can see our "ethically challenged" merchants
>attempting to ambush their way to fame and riches, but wouldn't the world
>that subsidized the depot in the first place patrol it too?
I'm still not convinced you would ever want to subsidise a depot. It is pretty easy to get 'viable routes'
with jump-3 shipping, and that is what I believe that the majority of freight goes on.
I would like you to detail a route in the Marches that you think would benefit from a deep space depot,
and we'll crunch some numbers about what it would cost.
> The presence of a Gazelle, Fiery, or Type-P might be normal. Dragon
>class SDB's could easily rotated on station by jump shuttles too. The
>squids are getting paid whether they're port or on patrol.
> I can't see a world establishing a depot in order to foster trade and
>then ignoring it so badly that hijacking and piracy occur there.
The problem is that the depot itself is cheap - I could probably knock one up for less than MCt 20
under any design system in Trav. However, if we have to put defenses on it or near it, then the cost
just went up substantially, and remember the thing has to make a profit (or at least break even).
You would need either obscene markups on the fuel, or be shifting a lot of fuel, to make a defended
depot worthwhile.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 21:13:30 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: The Active Traveller Campaign Census '01
On 02/10/01 at 09:35 AM, "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com> said:
>The list has been modified a bit since it was first placed there,
>but not much. I think that is was eclipsed by a project that
>someone else did last year, perhaps Eris?
No, not me. I've got the list of names and addresses of Travellers, but I'm not housing a list of active games.
>I'll give Rob Eaglestone
>first dibs on updating the listing, since it was his baby in the
>first place. If anyone wants to update their info they can email me
>directly. I was hoping for an improved version that is broken down
>by country and state, but I should like to see another twenty or so
>on the listing before bothering with that, eh?
Sounds good to me.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 22:37:54 -0600
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com>
Subject: RE: Claymores
Reminds me of a different RPG I was GMing...The Characters were delivered a
covered breakfast tray by "roomservice" at their hotel suite: 3 claymores
were wired to the lid. This 6 years before the idea came up in Point of No
Return (Nee' La Femme Nikita). One of the (4) paranoids in the group (of 5),
decided to tip up the lid with a knife and peer underneath before "serving"
themselves...smart boy he was, too. There was no way I was going to let the
party survive if they missed this one...
Of course, their riposte was classic: they wired the same claymores
underneath the serving cart, and switched the "fake" breakfast cart with a
real one ordered from a different room: They ate breakfast, and left the
leavings...and the assassins, I figured, were probably dumb enough to wonder
if somehow with the cart with the Claymores got switched somehow.
The party didn't check out quite as fast as the assassins did when they
checked under the tablecloth...
Matt
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Mark F. Cook
Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2001 5:44 PM
To: Traveller Mail List
Subject: Re: Claymores
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>on 2/10/01 7:07 AM, Douglas E. Berry at gridlore@pop.mindspring.com wrote:
>
> > For those who have no idea what I'm talking about, the M-18A1 Claymore
> > Antipersonnel Mine is a box about the size of a shoebox.
>
>I'd call more the size of a tall paperback book, or a medium sized
>soft-cover bible, if you prefer.
How does it compare in size to the Koran, the Book of Mormon, and the
Sayings
of Confucius? That's the burning question here. :^)
When I left "Uncle Sam's Misguided Children" some 25 odd years ago, a
training
Claymore kit apparently fell into my kit and followed me home. The (inert)
mine is
sitting here in my lap and I have my trusty tape measure in the other
hand. The
M18A1 is approximately 8 1/2" wide by 4 3/4" high (and 1 1/2" through the
body.)
> > Rather than burying it, you set it up pointing in a specific
> direction. When triggered
> > (by a trip wire or by command) it sends a large number of ball bearings
> into a
> >conical kill zone.
Well, fan-shaped, actually. When the M18A1 detonates, it delivers 700 steel
fragments in a
fan-shaped pattern approximately 2 meters high and 60 degrees wide at a
range of 50 meters.
These fragments are effective up to a range of 100 meters forward of the
mine (per my TM.)
And let's not forget the supposedly "friendly" side of the Claymore.
Backblast occurs within
an area of 16 meters to the rear and sides of the mine.
> > Linking several together on one circuit creates
> > what we like to call a "mechanical ambush." Bad guys walk into your
kill
> > box, you press one switch, and upwards of a dozen mines go off.
Yup. Even the generic ground pounders (as opposed to us elite ordnance
chaps) were trained
to set that std. defensive perimeter. With an average of 9 Claymores (one
from the squad
leader and one from each member of the 2 4-man fire teams) makes for a nice
"Welcome
Mat." :^)
Hey, waddaya know! According the circuit tester, both the "clackers" in my
training kit
(that's M57 Electrical Firing Devices to you sticklers) still work! Now, if
only I can find a
brick of C4 and a screwdriver! :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3636
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3637
Date: | 2/11/01 3:43:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Sunday, February 11 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3637
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: One for the programmers
Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
Intersellar TV
Re: One for the programmers
Re: And now for something totally different (Was Islands clusters)
Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
Re: One for the programmers
Re: And now for something totally different (Was Islands clusters)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Re: One for the programmers
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Deep space refuelling
Re: Deep space refuelling
Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
Re: Planetary Maps
Re: One for the programmers
Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:01:17 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: One for the programmers
Rob wrote:
> Ladies and Gentlemen...I have a problem that needs soulutions...I
> need a piece of software that will calculate optimum ship
> routing...not in the 3I but just in the Sol system.
What sort of delta-V capability are we talking about here? Traveller
magic drives or chemical rockets? Since this is a Traveller list,
I'll assume the former.
> First instance: Ship in orbit around Earth, what is the quickest
> orbit to Mars?
Point your ship at Mars and switch on thrusters. Turn over half way
and slow down again. Do some comparatively trivial fiddling so you
end up in orbit of Mars.
> What is the course using the least fuel?
Hohmann minimum-energy trajectory: wait until just the right time,
then boost out of Earth orbit (and out of Earth's orbit). Meet up
with Mars, aerobrake, and apply a little thrust to circularise your
orbit about Mars.
Getting to Venus requires more fuel than getting to Mars, if I
remember correctly.
> What is the most efficient (least fuel and time)?
Define 'most efficient'. You can have least fuel, or least time. Not
both at once. One measure might be a rough 'cost' formula:
cost = X Cr/day + Y Cr/ton of fuel.
You can minimise this, for various choices of X, Y, and thruster
parameters. It will vary with the relative positions of Earth and
Mars.
Under typical Traveller assumptions, it will nearly always be close to
'point and shoot', with orbital elements causing only a small
perturbation to this solution.
> Second instance: Ship in orbit around Earth, Optimum course for the
> trailing Saturian LaGrange point? Same problem set...
Again, it will depend on a lot of factors. Optimum with respect to
what measure, with what equipment, and under which circumstances?
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 23:12:45 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:18:29 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 00:05:00 -0800, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>>
>>>Hello Terry,
>>> You would have to throw ice water on my back while I'm trying to grapple
>>>with the issue of automating the distance finder routine <grin>. The only
>>>options I have at this point is to finish my original plans to create the
>>>distance finder. Once that is done, perhaps figure a way to trace the
>>>shortest distance from point to point via jump drive X where X represents
>>>the jump drive value of the ship in question.
>>
>> That's exactly the sort of software that a functional trader would
>> want to have running on his ship's computer. But that is just the
>> basic version of the software. Later versions would include a way of
>> indexing those jumps cross-indexed by the cost of jump fuel as
>> reported on each stop's fuel status reports for other planets.
>
>As well as what commodities were avalable and which were in demand, so
>he could trade along the way.
Well, that would make it just too easy. If all merchants used that
software exclusively, they certainly wouldn't feel like a "free
trader", they'd end up taking all their cargo instructions from their
routing program. I would rather keep my merchant owners looking at
the program results and then using their own intuition to vary from
that optimal route in order to take a plum cargo to that planet just a
single jump detour away.
For that matter, the major transit lines would probably have the easy
commodities snatched and in the pipeline before a free trader would be
able to get a profitable cargo off.
Another matter would be that, while the price of jump fuel might be
widely and easily available, market information about the demand for
and price of profitable commodities would be a jealously guarded piece
of trade information. Who will share it when someone else is likely
to make money from that information?
Adventure thread (and with a minor bow to the movie Trading Places) --
a free trader crew stumbles upon a plot to manipulate the futures
index (via reported shipments inbound) for a particular product. Can
they both foil the plotters (possibly a major shipping line) who are
feeding the false information AND make a tidy profit for themselves?
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:07:37 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Intersellar TV
This week on This Old Starship", we're going to refit a classic of the
trade mains, an Orrimot-class Logistics ship.
This beauty still has a hamster cage for simulating gravity.
We're going to turn that space into luxury cabins.
Next week, upgrading the twin Fusion plants.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
travhead.geo@yahoo.com -- Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Lair/3584/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:24:45 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: One for the programmers
Timothy Little wrote:
> Rob wrote:
> > Ladies and Gentlemen...I have a problem that needs soulutions...I
> > need a piece of software that will calculate optimum ship
> > routing...not in the 3I but just in the Sol system.
>
> What sort of delta-V capability are we talking about here? Traveller
> magic drives or chemical rockets? Since this is a Traveller list,
> I'll assume the former.
>
It's actually the latter...current era (1950's and onwards) technology....low
delta-v....
>
> > First instance: Ship in orbit around Earth, what is the quickest
> > orbit to Mars?
>
> Point your ship at Mars and switch on thrusters. Turn over half way
> and slow down again. Do some comparatively trivial fiddling so you
> end up in orbit of Mars.
>
> > What is the course using the least fuel?
>
> Hohmann minimum-energy trajectory: wait until just the right time,
> then boost out of Earth orbit (and out of Earth's orbit). Meet up
> with Mars, aerobrake, and apply a little thrust to circularise your
> orbit about Mars.
>
> Getting to Venus requires more fuel than getting to Mars, if I
> remember correctly.
>
> > What is the most efficient (least fuel and time)?
>
> Define 'most efficient'. You can have least fuel, or least time. Not
> both at once. One measure might be a rough 'cost' formula:
> cost = X Cr/day + Y Cr/ton of fuel.
>
> You can minimise this, for various choices of X, Y, and thruster
> parameters. It will vary with the relative positions of Earth and
> Mars.
>
> Under typical Traveller assumptions, it will nearly always be close to
> 'point and shoot', with orbital elements causing only a small
> perturbation to this solution.
>
> > Second instance: Ship in orbit around Earth, Optimum course for the
> > trailing Saturian LaGrange point? Same problem set...
>
> Again, it will depend on a lot of factors. Optimum with respect to
> what measure, with what equipment, and under which circumstances?
>
> --
> IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
> Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:40:22 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: And now for something totally different (Was Islands clusters)
> Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 14:39:35 -0500
> From: hal@buffnet.net
> Subject: And now for something totally different (Was Islands clusters)
>
> Hello Folks,
> Has anyone considered doing for the Third Imperium, what was done for
> TRAVELLER 2300 AD?
>
> To wit:
>
> We have the Survey from 4th Edition TRAVELLER. We have Pocket Empires
> from 4th Edition TRAVELLER. We have GURPS STARPORTS, GURPS FAR TRADER,
and
> even some other GURPS rules for abstracted combats.
> What would keep us as a mailing list occupied greatly, and would mesh in
> well with the Land Grab concept <evil grin> is a moderated wargame over
the
> net that encompasses all of the elements of history for the Third Imperium
> from start to finish.
It could be fun to play in that game *but* it wouldn't give us the history
of
the Imperium. Once one player does anything ahystorical (ie contrary to
canon) the setting will change. Maybe just a little but even small changes
have a way of snowballing into major discrepancies. (see chaos theory.)
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:02:47 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
On Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:50:49 -0600, John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
wrote:
>I have gone through all of my archived keyboard kills to date, and have
>found the following TMLers with five kills or more:
>
>Doug Berry: 17 kills
It must be that his clearly superior skills are actually attributable
to the concealed assistance he receives from his brother, Dave. He
should therefore be disqualified.
>Kenji Schwarz: 8 kills
>John Groth: 8 kills
>Loren Wiseman: 6 kills
>Leonard Erickson: 5 kills
>Kiri Aradia Morgan: 5 kills
>Frank G. Pitt: 5 kills
>Glenn Goffin: 5 kills
>Chris Seamans: 5 kills
>Walter Smith: 5 kills
Congratulations to the "legitimate" aces.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 00:31:49 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: One for the programmers
On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 11:07:32 +1100, Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au> wrote:
>Ladies and Gentlemen...I have a problem that needs soulutions...I need a
>piece of software that will calculate optimum ship routing...not in the
>3I but just in the Sol system.
>
>First instance: Ship in orbit around Earth, what is the quickest orbit
>to Mars? via a grav assist on venus? or wait 100 days and then launch at
>optimum? What is the course using the least fuel? What is the most
>efficient (least fuel and time)?
>
>Second instance: Ship in orbit around Earth, Optimum course for the
>trailing Saturian LaGrange point? Same problem set...
>
>All in a dynamic solar system...
Unfortunately, you've just named one of NASA's biggest problems. At
the moment, the software is just not up to doing it all by itself.
A good example is what they underwent in routing the Cassini
spacecraft to Saturn. This was by far a minimum fuel transit that
involved slingshots past Venus (twice), Earth and Jupiter before
rendezvousing with Saturn. Another example is the NEAR spacecraft
rendezvous with Eros. Especially in the case of the NEAR spacecraft,
it was almost as much an art as it was the science when the first
orbital insertion attempt failed.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:44:41 -0600
From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
Subject: Re: And now for something totally different (Was Islands clusters)
At 12:40 AM 2/11/01 -0500, David Shayne wrote:
>It could be fun to play in that game *but* it wouldn't give us the history
>of
>the Imperium. Once one player does anything ahystorical (ie contrary to
>canon) the setting will change. Maybe just a little but even small changes
>have a way of snowballing into major discrepancies. (see chaos theory.)
Why not start a completely new timeline?
"In the second decade of the twenty-first century the New World Order lay
in ruins..."
Les
=======================================================
Objects on screen may be more hostile than they appear.
=======================================================
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 21:30:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
In mail you write:
> Accuracy Systems used to make a miniature claymore known as the mini-more.
> It was about the sized of a plastic soap travel container. Very cute. Add
> a time fuse and an adhesive back and it's just the thing to take care of
> rude strangers who may be following you.
Another option would be an ultrasonic or IR "proximity fuse". Anything
gets within range, or closes at above a certain velocity (settable for
either) and BANG!.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 21:35:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
In mail you write:
> How many planets do have nuclear weapon capability? How many of them do
> have no actual weapons but can construct them in a very little time given
> the need?
>
> Of course, this is following from the Imperial rules of war.
Spread a lot of the right isotopes around. When the enemy enters the
area, hit it with a nuke damper set to accelerate the decay of said
isotopes. Enemy troops either die later (medium accel of decay) or go
into convulsions and the like immediately (high accel of decay).
A rather different sort of "enhanced radiation weapon".
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:02:00 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: One for the programmers
Rob wrote:
> It's actually the latter...current era (1950's and onwards)
> technology....low delta-v....
Ouch!
In that case, the best assumption is that minimising delta-V
requirement is by far the biggest concern.
> > > First instance: Ship in orbit around Earth, what is the quickest
> > > orbit to Mars?
That depends on your delta-V availability more than anything else.
From low orbit, it takes about 3.1 km/s to escape Earth. Much less
from the Moon's L4 or L5 points. You need at least another 3.0 km/s
to reach Mars, but that assumes that Mars is in the right spot at the
right time. Any additional delta-V will allow you to correct for Mars
not being in quite the right spot (hence reducing the wait before
launch), and/or reduce travel time from the basic 1.4 years.
You will also need a bit of delta-V to achieve Mars orbit -- how much
depends upon what sort of orbit is acceptable and whether you can
aerobrake. Of course, you also want a margin for course corrections
and/or unexpected alterations to the mission.
> > > What is the most efficient (least fuel and time)?
> >
> > Define 'most efficient'. You can have least fuel, or least time. Not
> > both at once. One measure might be a rough 'cost' formula:
> > cost = X Cr/day + Y Cr/ton of fuel.
This comment still applies. You need some criterion to define "most
efficient". You also need to know whether you have to get back again,
and whether you can refuel at Mars.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 05:08:55 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote
> So we could move your 10K colonist
> target with only four ships in 20 months.
>
> "Óh, the _Imperium_ could no doubt afford it. And so could any
> high-population member world. The question is, why would they spend all that
> money to get rid of a tiny fraction of a percent of their population?"
Especially when clubs and bullets are much cheaper.
> sustained, substantial Imperial emigration into Deneb, the
> Marches, and the Trojna Reach is a long standing Imperial policy. It
> re-enforces the Imperial claim to those areas over the claims of the other
> species and branches of humaniti already there.
> Why do the territorial acquisistions anglo Kiwis stand, despite the
> fact that the Maoris had been the since circa 900AD? Because the UK shipped
> in more colonists than there were Maori, that's why.
There was also the matter of several TL's of difference as well.
> "Whereas I'm going for the 'not worth it" explanation."
>
> So am I. I'm saying the benefits of keeping the Islands as a
> collection of squabbling mini-powers far outweighed the benefits of
> annexation or the creation of a client state at the time that decision was
> made; i.e. after the Eldarodo's return and a few years prior to the Rim War.
> Why some high pop worlds in Ilelish or Daibei didn't see the Ilands as
> an attractive colonization project far earlier, rather than shipping their
> cargoes of corpsicles "Behind the Claw" via Vland is the mystery.
It could be a 'Here be Dragons' mentality. If you are ignorant of
an area and exploration is not cheap then not exploring may seem
logical to a Vilani mindset. "They want to spend _how_ much money?
They don't know what the rate of return will be?"
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 05:14:53 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling
Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote
> Canon is littered with examples of deep space refueling. In the
> Traveller Adventure, Arekut, the tukera subsidary, operates a busy deep
> space fuel depot in the sleepy Aramis subsector, even goiing as far as
> staffing it.
Any chance they have at least eight other depots, making this
one Deep Space Nine?
> The PCs are hired by Oberlindes to capture the depot and then
> capture every ship that visits it for a set period of time.
And if this technique is at all common than deep space fuel
depots are an economic liability. The ships lost would be worth
far more than the savings realized by the depots existence.
If the Imperium rules space then they rule deep space. Therefore
if Imperial policy discourages commercial deep space stations
they will be rare.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:17:31 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling
Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:
> Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote
> > The PCs are hired by Oberlindes to capture the depot and then
> > capture every ship that visits it for a set period of time.
That sounds a lot like piracy to me. I would expect very serious
repercussions for such an action if it was ever discovered. As in,
"better leave no witnesses alive or we're dead" sort of repercussions.
> And if this technique is at all common than deep space fuel
> depots are an economic liability. The ships lost would be worth
> far more than the savings realized by the depots existence.
I haven't read the adventure, so I don't know what Oberlindes stands
to gain. Was it worth the likelihood of everyone involved being
spaced for piracy or conspiracy to commit piracy, together with any
other likely losses that would be sustained?
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 11:26:22 +0000
From: "Jonathan" <thegreatkraken@postmark.net>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
>On Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:50:49 -0600, John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>wrote:
>
>>I have gone through all of my archived keyboard kills to date, and have
>>found the following TMLers with five kills or more:
>>
>>Doug Berry: 17 kills
>
>It must be that his clearly superior skills are actually attributable
>to the concealed assistance he receives from his brother, Dave. He
>should therefore be disqualified.
>
>>Kenji Schwarz: 8 kills
>>John Groth: 8 kills
>>Loren Wiseman: 6 kills
>>Leonard Erickson: 5 kills
>>Kiri Aradia Morgan: 5 kills
>>Frank G. Pitt: 5 kills
>>Glenn Goffin: 5 kills
>>Chris Seamans: 5 kills
>>Walter Smith: 5 kills
>
>Congratulations to the "legitimate" aces.
>
>--
>JR Holmes
>jrholmes@wi.rr.com
What is a "keyboard kill"?
Please
Jonathan
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 05:14:08 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Maps
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/
Will 1024 x 768 in one of the following formats do?
.BMP
.CPT
.GIF
.MAC
.PCX
.PNG
.PSD
What about these raw formats?
.PCT
.CDR [CorelDraw 7]
.PDF
Take a look from your browser.
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/Travmaps/Hexworld1080.gif
bloo
Tod Glenn wrote:
> Help, folks.
>
> I am still looking for a blank planetary 'orange peel' map in electronic
> form- preferably in Adobe Illustrator, but any graphic format will do.
>
> Specifically I'm looking for something about 1000 pixels wide at 72 dpi.
>
> Check out the maps of Regina and Jenghe at http://www.spinwardmarches.com to
> see what I'm up to.
>
> Any landgrabbers who would like maps done of their worlds, let me know.
>
> Tod
> --
> "There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
> They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
> -Daniel Webster
> --
> Tod L Glenn
> webmaster@travellercentral.com
> http://www.travellercentral.com
> http://www.spinwardmarches.com
> http://www.solsec.org
> http://www.grandsurvey.com
> http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:32:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: One for the programmers
In mail you write:
> Rob wrote:
>> First instance: Ship in orbit around Earth, what is the quickest
>> orbit to Mars?
>
> Point your ship at Mars and switch on thrusters. Turn over half way
> and slow down again. Do some comparatively trivial fiddling so you
> end up in orbit of Mars.
>
>
>> What is the course using the least fuel?
>
> Hohmann minimum-energy trajectory: wait until just the right time,
> then boost out of Earth orbit (and out of Earth's orbit). Meet up
> with Mars, aerobrake, and apply a little thrust to circularise your
> orbit about Mars.
>
> Getting to Venus requires more fuel than getting to Mars, if I
> remember correctly.
Note that if the ratio of the semimajor axes of the orbits is more than
15:1, the least fuel orbit *isn't* a Hohmann. Instead, you put the ship
into a *parabolic* orbit tangent to the starting orbit, then when it
reaches infinity, you alter the course slight and put it in a
*different* parabolic orbit that is tangent to the destination orbit.
Obviously, this takes infinite time. But it turns out that even if you
*don't* go all the wayy to infinity (but merely to a distance much
greater than the radii of the start & destination orbits) you *still*
save fuel over a Hohmann orbit.
But you need to be willing to waste a *lot* of time.
>> What is the most efficient (least fuel and time)?
>
> Define 'most efficient'. You can have least fuel, or least time. Not
> both at once. One measure might be a rough 'cost' formula:
> cost = X Cr/day + Y Cr/ton of fuel.
>
> You can minimise this, for various choices of X, Y, and thruster
> parameters. It will vary with the relative positions of Earth and
> Mars.
>
> Under typical Traveller assumptions, it will nearly always be close to
> 'point and shoot', with orbital elements causing only a small
> perturbation to this solution.
Actually, for some Traveller situations, it's faster to Jump, even
in-system.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:07:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics (was Greetings)
In mail you write:
> On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:18:29 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
> Erickson) wrote:
>
>>In mail you write:
>>
>>> On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 00:05:00 -0800, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hello Terry,
>>>> You would have to throw ice water on my back while I'm trying to grapple
>>>>with the issue of automating the distance finder routine <grin>. The only
>>>>options I have at this point is to finish my original plans to create the
>>>>distance finder. Once that is done, perhaps figure a way to trace the
>>>>shortest distance from point to point via jump drive X where X represents
>>>>the jump drive value of the ship in question.
>>>
>>> That's exactly the sort of software that a functional trader would
>>> want to have running on his ship's computer. But that is just the
>>> basic version of the software. Later versions would include a way of
>>> indexing those jumps cross-indexed by the cost of jump fuel as
>>> reported on each stop's fuel status reports for other planets.
>>
>>As well as what commodities were avalable and which were in demand, so
>>he could trade along the way.
>
> Well, that would make it just too easy. If all merchants used that
> software exclusively, they certainly wouldn't feel like a "free
> trader", they'd end up taking all their cargo instructions from their
> routing program. I would rather keep my merchant owners looking at
> the program results and then using their own intuition to vary from
> that optimal route in order to take a plum cargo to that planet just a
> single jump detour away.
There's no way a program can give "optimal results". It can point out
things that *might* work. But given comm lag and market forces, there'd
still be a fair amount of risk.
> For that matter, the major transit lines would probably have the easy
> commodities snatched and in the pipeline before a free trader would be
> able to get a profitable cargo off.
Not necessarily. They are less likely to be interested in "one time"
shipments or "odd lots".
> Another matter would be that, while the price of jump fuel might be
> widely and easily available, market information about the demand for
> and price of profitable commodities would be a jealously guarded piece
> of trade information. Who will share it when someone else is likely
> to make money from that information?
People who are hoping to *sell* it to traders or *buy* it from them.
Of course, since they'll cheerfully sell to or buy from the first
person to make an acceptable offer, speed will count. Being the
*second* trader to show up with 50 tons of left handed greeble fixers
is going to be a great way to *lose* money. :-)
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3637
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3638
Date: | 2/11/01 8:28:48 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Sunday, February 11 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3638
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Deep space refuelling
RE: Anti-RPG
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
Re: Islands
Deep Space Refueling, Starship Economics and the Imperium
Re: Deep Space Refulling
Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
Taking moment out from the religion debate...?
Re: Islands subsectors
Re: Deep space refuelling
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: Deep Space Refueling, Starship Economics and the Imperium
Re: One for the programmers
[none]
Re: Planetary navies
Re: Planetary navies
Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
[none]
RE: [OT] Facts & Theories
Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:56:21 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling
>From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
"That sounds a lot like piracy to me. I would expect very serious
repercussions for such an action if it was ever discovered. As in,
"better leave no witnesses alive or we're dead" sort of repercussions."
It was during a trade war, an very "canonical" and very common
(supposedly) event. The Imperium "allows" it as long as property damage is
kep to a minimum and casulties among bystanders don't occur.
The PCs', in the March Harrier, arrive at the fuel depot in company
with a Oberlindes "star merc" vessel. They are planning on capturing ships
for a set time period. Once Arekut ship's miss their ETAs on either "side"
of the depot, corporate security forces will investigate. The Oberlindes
team plans on being gone by then. The PCs and Obelindes capture the
incoming ships, install prize crews, and jump them out for Oberlindes
facilities. So little or no crew casulties (hopefully) and passengers are
simply inconvienanced.
"And if this technique is at all common than deep space fuel
depots are an economic liability. The ships lost would be worth far more
than the savings realized by the depots existence."
Colonization is uneconomical too, yet colonization AND deep space fuel
depots are firmly part of the canon. Should we try and understand why they
occur, or simply ignore them? It's your call.
It's never hinted that the depots are structures or even manned; ala
ST:DS9 (shudder). Could they just be many, many multi-ton chunks of
"ice-teroid" and an automated fuel refinery?
"I haven't read the adventure, so I don't know what Oberlindes stands
to gain. Was it worth the likelihood of everyone involved being
spaced for piracy or conspiracy to commit piracy, together with any
other likely losses that would be sustained?"
The same explanation as above. Trade wars (actual armed fighting and
acts of sabotage, not targeted price cuts and ad campaigns) are part of
canon. So those involved would not be charged with arson, piracy, murder,
etc. as long as the propieties are kept. The adventure mentions that part
of Arekut's lock on subsector trade is their sucking up to the Marquis of
Aramis. Apparently, Aretuk has kept on his good side (maybe by buying
"gifts" of furniture and dishes for his palace at Leedor?) so Arekut's
strong arm practices aren't punished at all.
Oberlindes, with the PCs help, fights back and eventually digs up
enough dirt to embarass Arekut enough that the Marquis' protection is
withdrawn. Just like a politician, they don't even stay bought. 8^)
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:06:43 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
> From: Dean Jones
> I wonder if anyone's thought of writing an RPG setting where all of these
> ideas are true...maybe we should suggest GURPS Frank Chick to SJ? :)
Not a bad idea. : )
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
I thought there was already a game like this. In Nomine. :^)
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:06:45 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
>From: healyzh@aracnet.com
>snip
"Ah, now there is a contradiction. Think about what you just said for
a moment. A "tested (and proven) scientific theory". Last I checked if
something is proven it's not a theory. Furthermore, how are you going to
prove it"
> Should I bother? Why not? (sigh)
> And finally, as an engineer I'd have problems with any holy text that
>has an incorrect value for pi. Unfortunately, the Bible does. Now, the
>deity who dictated the Bible may have known the actual value of pi, but the
>human who transcribed it screwed up. Now the question is, what else did
>that human transcriber get wrong?
> Larsen
> "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your
>right to say it."
>
Just as a matter of curiosity where is the value of pi given? To which
particular version of the Bible are you referring? KJ? New American
Catholic? Vulgate? Greek Bible of Alexandria? The Wycliffite Bible? (As you
can see quoting the Bible can be a chancy thing :)) I'm interested because I
didn't realize that anyone had even attempted to calculate Pi until
Archimedes in the 3rd century (BC or BCE, if you prefer,) and didn't realize
that the Bible address the subject at all.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 07:18:39 -0600
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
JR Holmes posted:
>
> On Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:50:49 -0600, John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I have gone through all of my archived keyboard kills to date, and have
> >found the following TMLers with five kills or more:
> >
> >Doug Berry: 17 kills
>
> It must be that his clearly superior skills are actually attributable
> to the concealed assistance he receives from his brother, Dave. He
> should therefore be disqualified.
Now, now! Every sniper team consists of a shooter and a
spotter who
switch off roles every so often. It doesn't matter who spots
the
target and who takes the shot. A kill is a kill.
David
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:12:36 GMT
From: "John G. Wood" <elvwood@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Re: Islands
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Yikes, I'm a dope. Would you believe I have never seen a copy of the
> "Atlas"? Guess I was silly enough to think that TCS was canon.
Yes, it's canon. Yes, it's contradicted by other canon. Yes, that's exactly
the sort of thing that keeps many of us fruit[ful|less]ly occupied for days...
John
http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 05:22:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Deep Space Refueling, Starship Economics and the Imperium
Just a few thoughts:
If the Imperium gets its revenue from taking a cut of passage and
freight costs (roll this into the life support costs for the trip),
wouldn't it do everything in its power to promote the movement of goods
and people between worlds?
If your mini-main lies a couple of parsecs off one of the larger mains,
wouldn't the Imperium bankroll a deep-space fueling station to enusre
the maximum amount of trade with that mini-main?
We already know they undertake other operations to ensure the flow of
trade continues (anti-piracy, convoying in time of war, etc.), so why
not deep-space fueling caches?
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:23:37 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
"Vland sits on one edge of the largest mains in know space, extending
rimward out of the Vland sector through the Dagudashaa, Zarushagar,
Gushemege and into the Iielish and Verge sectors. There's another huge one
just to trailing, and several more connected to the rimward areas of the
Vland main. It becomes easy to see where the Vilani would have expanded to,
as it shows the least cost routes to expand through. But none of them lead
spinward through the corridor or coreward to any degree, even through that's
where the Vargr are."
I can certainly see why the existence of these mains would greatl skew
Vilani expansion in certain directions. Add in the presence of conquered
minor races to act as centers of expansion and the effect is reenforced even
more. The mains and the already inhabited worls strung along them will be
powerful incentives to channel growth in certain directions. But, even with
all that, the shear distances involved trouble me too.
As a highly centralized state, at a very minimum instructions and
officials would be dispatched from Vland to the Ziru Sirka's far corners.
Look at the cost of shipping the new "Grand High Poobah of Light Bulbs" or
the latest manual on toothbrushes from Vland to Dingir on the Solomani Rim.
Is that cost any less than transversing a 2 or 3 parsec rift within 10
parsecs of home?
The wonderful and excellent map you refer to shows gaps between these
huge Mains. Are all those gaps fortuitiuosly 2 parsecs? If they're not,
then the hide bound, figure the cost first, Vilani used (gasp) deep space
refuleing to crss them. Now the question is, if their using deep spce
refueling way off in Daibei, or Antares, or where ever, why not a few 10's
of parsecs near the home world?
IMHO, the reason for the first empire's extremely "lopsided" layout is
more a part of Our Olde Game's slow accretion of canonical data. The first
maps were simply sketched out, excepted without too many questions, and then
the writers and designers moved on. By the time someone looked at the Ziru
Sirka's lay out with the same eys we are, it was far too late to change
anything. The First Imperium's size and shape are a historical and
astrographical equivalent of the human appendix. They, and it, are
evolutionary left overs. They made sense at the time, but are of no use
today.
Think of the jump torpedoes in A:4 "Levithan" or the supposed
"mysteriousness" of an Imperial subsector in the Trojan Reach five parsec
from Glisten. They are both one time results of poor editorial control and
cannot be explained away.
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 05:32:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
Have y'all considered that Imperium's turn is two standard years? And,
at that scale deep-space jumps might not be apparent?
I'm using Imperium as one of the sources for my TNE Interstellar Wars
Sourcebook (I'm going to do the Interstellar Wars in 3D).
- --- Stephen Tempest <TML@stempest.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> hal@buffnet.net writes:
>
> >How many people remember the wargame (boardgame) Imperium? If I
> recall
> >correctly, it supposedly was intended to simulate the interstellar
> wars
> >back when Jump 1 and Jump 2 were the fastest ships on the block.
> They had
> >fuel tanker counters that permitted a ship to refuel at stars that
> didn't
> >have any fuel sources. Would that not constitute the first known
> deep
> >space refueling?
>
> No - because Imperium only let you jump between stars (including ones
> with no planets), not to deep space (empty hexes).
>
> Possible explanation: Vilani jumpdrive (which we know worked on
> different principles to the 3I version) was only capable of
> precipitating a ship *out* of jumpspace when it hit a major gravity
> well. No star or other large object within J1 or J2 range, and the
> ship would be lost forever in J-Space.
>
> This would also explain the other point which puzzled me for a long
> time: why Vland is in the far coreward corner of the Ziru Sirka,
> rather than being roughly in its centre. There's a two-parsec rift
> just to coreward of Vland, so until J-2 was discovered (or a
> convenient large rock spotted in deep space) ships would *have* to
> follow the Main to rimward/trailing...
>
> Stephen
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
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**********************************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:33:43 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Taking moment out from the religion debate...?
Folks, I need help.
(They say that's a good first step...)
No, seriously. I need some help and maybe you can provide some of it.
As you may or may not know, I have a new novel due out in a couple of weeks.
It's a Fantasy, from Hekaforge Productions. (Title is The Eye of Glory, by
Martin J Dougherty, if that matters). There's a lot riding on this, so I
need the launch to be a big success. I also need to improve sales of my
out-now Fantasy (Behind the Throne, Highbridge Press, ISBN 0-9678832-0-2) in
order to influence the publishers about a sequel.
You can obviously help by buying the book (!). TEOG will be on Amazon in a
few days. Behind the Throne is already there. But there's more than that.
Should you feel inclined, you can help me out by:
1. Going into your local book store and asking for it. This makes stores
more likely to order copies - it's important.
2. Making a recommendation on your website/sigline/zeppelin/arcane monolith
etc.
What's in it for you? Well, apart from the kudos of being able to point at
books in stores sometime in the future and tell your grandkids that you
helped get them there, I'm going to set up a "hall of fame". Tell me what
you did and I'll set up an honourable mention. And of course I'll be willing
to listen and discuss when you email me with comments or what you'd REALLY
like me to write next. In short... not much. (!)
But if you are willing to help me out, you'll have my gratitude. Whatever
that may be worth.
BTW: some folks were reviewing Behind the Throne... did anyone get that
done?
Regards,
MJD
Book details: (all by Martin J Dougherty)
Behind the Throne (Fantasy; Highbridge Press; Trade Paperback; ISBN
0-9678832-0-2. www.highbridgepress.com)
The Eye of Glory (Fantasy; Hekaforge Productions; Trade Paperback;
www.hekaforge.com)
In Glory Die (Fantasy; The Fiction Works; Ebook and POD Trade Paperback)
A Brevet for the Guillotine (Historical Adventure; 23House; Ebook (CD);
www.23house.com)
OBTRAV? OBTRAV???????????
OK then... errr.... I AM a Traveller writer. And I've been talking to one of
these publishers about a Traveller novel, but before we can even begin
discssions, I need sales figures to impress them with. That makes 2
OBTRAVs...
Regards
MJD
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:45:36 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
"Why do the territorial acquisistions anglo Kiwis stand, despite the
fact that the Maoris had been the since circa 900AD? Because the UK shipped
in more colonists than there were Maori, that's why."
"There was also the matter of several TL's of difference as well."
Fewer than you think. The Maoris has firearms toward the end and their
hill forts were tough nuts to crak. Also, the polity with the superior TL
was operating at the end of a months long supply route.
The UK's use of force didn't exterminate the Maori, unlike the
treatment of most natives in North America. Instead, that force made the
Maori acquiesce to the UK coloist's territorial demands. It didn't run them
all off or kill them all.
Despite the TL disparity, the Maori were still enough of a threat or
bother to force the colonial government to grant them political rights under
that government. They didn't end up disenfranchized non-entities, but the
settlers and thier descendants are the majority due to the sustained
emigration that the UK supported.
The Imperium might follow that example with regards to the pre-existing
colonies in Deneb. They found settlements with Imperial colonistsm, force
the natives to accept them, and ensure their settlements grow faster than
the native population. Wait a couple generations and you've got a world on
which the majority population is Imperial descended.
"It could be a 'Here be Dragons' mentality. If you are ignorant of
an area and exploration is not cheap then not exploring may seem
logical to a Vilani mindset. "They want to spend _how_ much money?
They don't know what the rate of return will be?"
While there were no dragons in the equally unexplored area 100's of
parsecs away in the area that would become the Marches. Hans Rancke makes a
pretty convincing argument that most of the Imperial settlers in Deneb and
the Marches came from the Vland sector. I guess those Vilani didn't bother
to ask the same questions the ones in Ilelish did.
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:56:44 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
"Any chance they have at least eight other depots, making this
one Deep Space Nine?"
God no. I'm not suggesting anything like what ever is done on that
execrable collection of television shows.(shudder)
As detailed in the Traveller Adventure, the Arekut depot in the Armais
subsector has a vessel on station. It most likely acts as a gatekeeper;
performing as a radio beacon, SAR asset, and fuel refinery. The crew, and
maybe the ship itself, would be rotated out on a regular basis. Think of
the crews aboard off shore oil rigs.
Part of the Oberlineds paln is to capture that vessel and then have the
March Harrier impersonate it. Thois will allow the Oberlindes "star merc"
ship to ambush the newly arrived Arekut shippiing.
Building a starport in deep space is tha LAST thing I'm suggesting.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:13:41 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
"Just as a matter of curiosity where is the value of pi given? To which
particular version of the Bible are you referring?...
It should be in all of the ones you mentioned. They would all have the
Old Testament I assume? (I rarely read the bible anymore, I can'r follow the
plot. 8^)
In Second Chronicles, the verse goes into great detail about the
furnishings of the Temple. A round bowl is described as being so many units
around (circumference) and then so many units across (diameter).
You plug the given diameter into the formula we've had since around 400
BC and you don't get the given circumference.
Kind of a big "oopsie" for a text that's supposed to be infallible
recieved wisdom, wouldn't you say?
So, maybe there was a copying error from some ur-text. If so, what
other copying mistakes are there?
Maybe the fellow who wrote that part hadn't seen the bowl and was
relying on the flawed rememberences of a witness. So, how many other
similar goofs are there in the text?
Please refer to all the different texts you mentioned and look it up.
Larsen
P.S. FWIW, I promise this to be my last post on this subject on the TML.
This thread is of no use to the topics discussed here. My apologies for
posting twice on this thread and helping to extend it's life. I was wrong
to do so.
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:18:32 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refueling, Starship Economics and the Imperium
>From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
"Just a few thoughts:"
"If the Imperium gets its revenue from taking a cut of passage and
freight costs (roll this into the life support costs for the trip),
wouldn't it do everything in its power to promote the movement of goods
and people between worlds?"
"If your mini-main lies a couple of parsecs off one of the larger mains,
wouldn't the Imperium bankroll a deep-space fueling station to enusre
the maximum amount of trade with that mini-main?"
"We already know they undertake other operations to ensure the flow of
trade continues (anti-piracy, convoying in time of war, etc.), so why
not deep-space fueling caches?"
Boy, I wish I could have said that! Sweet, succint, and to the point.
Thank you, sir.
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:27:27 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: One for the programmers
Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Note that if the ratio of the semimajor axes of the orbits is more
> than 15:1, the least fuel orbit *isn't* a Hohmann. Instead, you put
> the ship into a *parabolic* orbit tangent to the starting orbit,
[...]
That doesn't make any sense. A Hohmann transfer involves two thrusts.
One to make the orbit more elliptical, another to match speed with the
second body. Both involve less delta-V than that required to go
parabolic and decelerate from a parabolic into the destination orbit.
Now, I am aware that the Hohmann delta-V requirements for a 2-impulse
transfer between circular orbits has a maximum at about 15.58:1, is
this perhaps what you were thinking of?
In getting finer detail, calculations are complicated a bit by
inclined and/or elliptical orbits. Not many planets in our system
have inclinations and eccentricities sufficient to make much
difference though, so you can probably ignore it most of the time.
The only major variation is for Neptune-Pluto transfers.
> Actually, for some Traveller situations, it's faster to Jump, even
> in-system.
Very true. In our system, about Uranus orbit and outward for typical
maneuver drives.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:33:02 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: [none]
Gents,
As you all undoubted know by now, I'm a bit of a scatterbrained,
chucklehead. I've really pulled good one now; I accidently deleted a very
fine response to a recent post of mine.
The gentleman who was kind enough to respond was pointing out how
GT:Far Trader had fixed many problems with the Traveller trade system (very
true) and the economic infeasibility of deep space fuel caches.
The post was very well thought out and contained many good points. I
was preparing my usual weak riposte to it, when my lobes slipped a cog and I
deleted the gentleman's post.
If the poster, or someone else who might have saved it, could send me
another copy, I would be very grateful.
Thank you.
Larsen E. Whipsnade
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:24:44 -0000
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Planetary navies
How many ships constitute a fleet, anybody a clue?
Ben
'Let's be honest here - you paid for the women.'
Bill Murrey - Scrooged
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:44:01 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary navies
From: "Ben Aaronovitch" <bem@imaginaryfilms.demon.co.uk>
"How many ships constitute a fleet, anybody a clue?"
I think MT's Rebellion Sourcebook had a method for this. It talked
about how ships make-up a squadron, then how many squadrons make-up a fleet.
If my little grey cells are working correctly (something that isn't too
certain) this method will give you a wide range of ship numbers from fleet
to fleet.
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:47:38 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
Jonathan wrote:
> What is a "keyboard kill"?
Saying something so funny that another person laughs
coffee/cola/whatever all over the keyboard.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:56:39 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: [none]
Gentlemen,
I need some information, or more importantly the URLs where to find it.
There was a propulsion and/or power technology in MT concerning "rotary
sails". Think about laying a windmill on it's side, then shorten the
diameter of the windmill's vanes and increase their height.
You end up with a tall mast with several equally tall, small width vanes
attached to it. The whole contraption is sheathed in tube with two vertical
slits in it. Wind comes in one slit, turns the vanes, and exits the other
slit. The revolving mast is attached to some sort of transmission to drive
whatever.
Can anybody point me in the right direction to find the MT design
particulars? And the "wet navy" design and combat rules too?
Thanks in advance.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:36:03 -0000
From: "Mark Preston" <mark@mpreston.demon.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [OT] Facts & Theories
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Anthony Jackson
> Sent: 09 February 2001 17:21
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: [OT] Facts & Theories
>
> Matt Bond writes:
>
> > For creationism to be taught alongside evolution, as an
> > alternative explanation (ie Theory) then it would need to
> > credibly explain how species evolve. IIRC it doesn't. In
> > fact it dismisses the concept completely.
>
> Well, no. A scientific theory needs to be testable and
> have predictive value to be taken seriously (in practice,
> these work out to the same thing). Creationism is neither.
> >
I flatly _refuse_ to be drawn into the creationism argument.
> >
[snip]
>
However, the argument you are presenting is wrong. In order to be
_supportable_ a theory must be able to provide predictive results.
That is _not_ to be able to predict future events, but to be able to
predict and explain _all_ the observable states that result from the
theory.
This does not _prove_ the theory - in fact, it is unlikely that any
sceintific theory can be fully proven. The scientific method is that a
theory must be _falsified_ (in other words, its predictions shown to
be incorrect or a subsequent theory to provide _better_ predictive
capabilities). The theory of evolution can be falsified because it
makes detailed predictive statements possible. Creationism, on the
other hand, _cannot_ be falsified since it relies on an article of
faith and does _not_ make predictive statements possible. Therefore it
is neither science nor is it a valid scientific theory.
I do not comment here on which is most "correct", but on which is and
which is not science.
- --
Mark A. Preston, The Magpie's Nest, Lancashire, UK
Email : mark@magpiesnest.co.uk
Website : www.magpiesnest.co.uk
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:19:52
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
At 05:09 PM 2/10/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>Well, all TML Keyboard Kill aces are _authorized_ to wear flight jackets
>and silk scarves. Unfortunately, they are not issue items, and
>therefore aces must purchase their own garments and accoutrements.
And are required to do so within 180 days of confirmation of ace status.
Requests for exemtion may be made, in writing, to:
TML Ace Advisory Panel
#7, Up the Back Stairs
Lemon Curry, Regina.
Ask for "Leon."
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3638
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3639
Date: | 2/11/01 12:23:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Sunday, February 11 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3639
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Keyboard Kill Victims (October 1999 to Today)
Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3638
Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
Re: Deep Space Refulling
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Mines, yours, and ours
Re: 1889 Movie
re:General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
RE: Boing
Re: One for the programmers
Re: FAR TRADER Economics
Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
Re: Deep Space Refulling
Re: One for the programmers
RE: Boing
Re: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:21:40
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Kill Victims (October 1999 to Today)
At 05:21 PM 2/10/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>I find it particularly interesting that Doug Berry and Kiri Aradia
>Morgan appear on both the ace list and this list.
We're funny people John.. you've met us,, you know that. Of course, you
weren't in the room when I read Norris' "Keep the Flame" speech on helium...
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 11:34:27 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
>
> At 05:09 PM 2/10/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >Well, all TML Keyboard Kill aces are _authorized_ to wear flight jackets
> >and silk scarves. Unfortunately, they are not issue items, and
> >therefore aces must purchase their own garments and accoutrements.
>
> And are required to do so within 180 days of confirmation of ace status.
> Requests for exemtion may be made, in writing, to:
>
> TML Ace Advisory Panel
> #7, Up the Back Stairs
> Lemon Curry, Regina.
>
> Ask for "Leon."
Am I eligible for an extension of this deadline under the Soldiers' and
Spacers' Civil Relief Act?
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:48:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Douglas Sinclair <dns@smtp.interlog.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3638
Timothy Little wrote:
> That doesn't make any sense. A Hohmann transfer involves two thrusts.
> One to make the orbit more elliptical, another to match speed with the
> second body. Both involve less delta-V than that required to go
> parabolic and decelerate from a parabolic into the destination orbit.
>
> Now, I am aware that the Hohmann delta-V requirements for a 2-impulse
> transfer between circular orbits has a maximum at about 15.58:1, is
> this perhaps what you were thinking of?
Let me chime in in support of Leonard. The return-through-infinity
maneuver really does use less fuel than the Hohmann transfer when
travelling to distant bodies. The first trust clearly uses more delta-V
than the first Hohmann burn, though not by very much. The second thrust
is degenerate. If you actually go out to infinite distance, taking
infinite time, then it requires zero delta-V. I believe that the third
burn uses less delta-V than the second burn in a Hohmann transfer.
Certainly, I sat through the derivation in my Spacecraft Navigation course
and it made sense at the time. This early on a weekend, my brain isn't up
to rederiving it.
I find inclination changing maneuvers to be similarly counter-intuitive.
Inclination can be changed by a single burn at 90 degrees to the orbital
velocity. Alternatively, it can be changed with a three burn maneuver.
First the apogee is raised with a burn parallel to the orbital velocity.
Then, at apogee, the inclination is chandged with a burn at 90 degrees to
the orbital velocity. Finally, the apogee is lowered with a perigee burn
opposite to the orbital velocity. This three burn maneuver can use much
less fuel if large inclination changes are needed.
Doug
(The spacecraft engineer, not the sniper)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:47:27
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
At 11:34 AM 2/11/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" wrote:
>> And are required to do so within 180 days of confirmation of ace status.
>> Requests for exemtion may be made, in writing, to:
>>
>> TML Ace Advisory Panel
>> #7, Up the Back Stairs
>> Lemon Curry, Regina.
>>
>> Ask for "Leon."
>
>Am I eligible for an extension of this deadline under the Soldiers' and
>Spacers' Civil Relief Act?
Yes. You must report in person to the nearest Imperial Consulate with
copies of you discharge form (IS-488v), two forms of ID, and a completed
Form 876/DY-12. Please make an appointment in advance.
(Note: You cvivies think we're joking about this? Try getting seen at a VA
hospital sometime!)
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Trust Ivanova, trust yourself, anybody else: shoot them."
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:18:16 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
>
> Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:23:37 -0000
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
>
> From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
> "Vland sits on one edge of the largest mains in know space, extending
> rimward out of the Vland sector through the Dagudashaa, Zarushagar,
> Gushemege and into the Iielish and Verge sectors. There's another huge one
> just to trailing, and several more connected to the rimward areas of the
> Vland main. It becomes easy to see where the Vilani would have expanded to,
> as it shows the least cost routes to expand through. But none of them lead
> spinward through the corridor or coreward to any degree, even through that's
> where the Vargr are."
>
> I can certainly see why the existence of these mains would greatl skew
> Vilani expansion in certain directions. Add in the presence of conquered
> minor races to act as centers of expansion and the effect is reenforced even
> more. The mains and the already inhabited worls strung along them will be
> powerful incentives to channel growth in certain directions. But, even with
> all that, the shear distances involved trouble me too.
> As a highly centralized state, at a very minimum instructions and
> officials would be dispatched from Vland to the Ziru Sirka's far corners.
> Look at the cost of shipping the new "Grand High Poobah of Light Bulbs" or
> the latest manual on toothbrushes from Vland to Dingir on the Solomani Rim.
> Is that cost any less than transversing a 2 or 3 parsec rift within 10
> parsecs of home?
> The wonderful and excellent map you refer to shows gaps between these
> huge Mains. Are all those gaps fortuitiuosly 2 parsecs? If they're not,
> then the hide bound, figure the cost first, Vilani used (gasp) deep space
> refuleing to crss them. Now the question is, if their using deep spce
> refueling way off in Daibei, or Antares, or where ever, why not a few 10's
> of parsecs near the home world?
>
The gaps off the Vilani main are 2 parsecs, repeatedly. That is once
you build a deep space refueling station, you reach a small cluster of
one to four systems, and you need to do it again. You would need to
build at least 4 of these deep space stations to get across Corridor.
Meanwhile, the other Vilani corporations are making a much better profit
to rimward.
And the initial Vilani expansion was done using only jump-1 ships. And
by the time the Jump-2 ship came about, the Vilani retained complete
control of the technology. But by that time they already had their
empire, and used the technology to control the places they could get to.
Rarely to expand to new areas.
Because the Vilani had a complete strangle hold on the Jump-2 drive,
this made them lord and master of their domain. In order to expand
through a gap like corridor economically would require either the Vilani
do the work of moving the goods or build and maintain numerous deep
space stations to let others do the work. The Vilani chose neither.
> IMHO, the reason for the first empire's extremely "lopsided" layout is
> more a part of Our Olde Game's slow accretion of canonical data. The first
> maps were simply sketched out, excepted without too many questions, and then
> the writers and designers moved on. By the time someone looked at the Ziru
> Sirka's lay out with the same eys we are, it was far too late to change
> anything. The First Imperium's size and shape are a historical and
> astrographical equivalent of the human appendix. They, and it, are
> evolutionary left overs. They made sense at the time, but are of no use
> today.
> Think of the jump torpedoes in A:4 "Levithan" or the supposed
> "mysteriousness" of an Imperial subsector in the Trojan Reach five parsec
> from Glisten. They are both one time results of poor editorial control and
> cannot be explained away.
>
You seem to have the idea that the Traveller canon is an inviolate
dogma which can not be questioned. What I find amazing is after 20 years
and more than a hundred authors, the canon is as consistent as it is. So
if there are little problems like the Levithan's jump torpedoes or the
Annic Nova or several dozen other little things you don't like, don't
bother to explain them away, ignore them. Ask Eris about how much of the
traveller canon he uses.
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 11:51:29 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
On Sat, 10 Feb 2001 09:02:12 gridlore@pop.mindspring.com (Douglas E. Berry)
wrote:
>>Another interesting factoid: since claymores are (supposedly*) command
>>detonated (a sentient touched them off) they aren't covered by the "mine
>>ban" treaty.
>
>That treaty. Feh. You can't put the genie back in the bottle. Land mines
>are an excellent method of denying an area to the enemy. Emplace them,
>pull the safeties, and leave. They die, you don't get shot at. Or use
>them to channel the enemy into a kill zone. The Germans were so good at
>this that the Soviets learned to just accept the losses of charging over
>minefields rather than dance to the Wehrmacht's tune.
Well, the aim of the landmine treaty is to prevent stuff like widespread
airborne scattering of landmines in unknown, uncontrolled locations. As
claymores are manually emplaced in known locations, I'm not exactly sure that
they are covered under the treaty, so long as they're _dis_emplaced later. In
other words, they're not landmines, they're booby traps.
The problem with land mines are places like Cambodia and the Sudan where there
are _millions_ of the buggers scattered around and no one knows where they
are.
The problem is indeed that they're placed and you leave. Worse, a C-130 drops
thousands and thousands of them through a valley and leaves.
Then ten years after the damn war is over a kid wanders through heding groats
or something, and BLAMMO! No legs. Multiply by thousands.
That is what the landmine treaty is intended to prevent. Alas, since no one
can be counted on to play by the rules, the treaty banned 'em all. Sadly, that
makes it unlikely that the treaty will actually ever work.
You can believe that if the problem with landmines were, say, concentrated in
Nebraska instead of Bosnia, Sudan or Cambodia, the US would have made sure
everyone signed that treaty by now.
obTrav: You can _bet_ this comes under the Imperial rules of war under the
indiscriminate killing of civilians rule. Either mines are designed to
decompose safely after a short time, disarm themselves, blow themselves up on
a radio command, or any merc company or Imperial troops who use 'em are
required to police their minefields after the action.
Bruce Johnson
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:49:43 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Mines, yours, and ours
> The Germans were so good at
> this that the Soviets learned to just accept the losses of charging over
> minefields rather than dance to the Wehrmacht's tune.
This was Patton's policy too -- he said you took fewer casualties from the
mines than you did from the kiling zone the mine channeled you into.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:56:26 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: 1889 Movie
At 14:59 -0500 9/2/01, GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > P.S. How's the Space:1889 movie cooming along?
>
>I'm no longer directly involved, but I understand the production company's
>option is still active. The books themselves are being reprinted as facsimile
>editions . . .
details at http://www.heliograph.com/ if I remember correctly.
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:05:19 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re:General Question about Jumping (newbie alert!)
At 15:42 -0500 9/2/01, Richard J. Pugh" <rjpugh@patriot.net> wrote:
>A ship's hyperdrive is measured in terms of "jump" performance (jump-1
>through jump-6). Do those numbers refer to range, or velocity?
>
>If it's range, can a jump-1 ship make *only* short jumps of 3.2 ly or
>less? If a target system is more than 4 ly away, you're hosed.
Correct. The jump number refers to the range. All jumps take 168
hours (1 week) approximately, during which the ship is out of contact
and undetectable.
>I'm hoping it's the later case; much easier for me to work with. I'm in
>the early stages of designing a campaign; this will have a profound effect
>on what kind of ship my PC's will be working on. The campaign will be set
>in and around Reaver's Deep; stars aren't exactly close together over
>there, so the range of a given ship is important.
I'm afraid it's the first case. However, you can carry fuel and do a
deep space jump. There are arguments of canonicity on this here on
TML, but it's been there since CT. The easiest way to integrate this
with T4/GT emergence at a 100D diameter/Jump Masking is to assume
that the deep space jumps are to dark masses (eg comets, asteroids)
in deep space (a bit like Cherryh's Alliance/Union ships use).
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:09:56 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Boing
At 16:23 -0500 9/2/01, "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com> wrote:
> > >"You are Dave."
> > >
> > >"You are Dave."
> > >
> > >"Together, we are.. DAVE."
> >
> > Jesse, just to avoid confusion, we'll call you 'Dave'. ;-)
>My Father's name was David ;)
>Jesse
Actually, perhaps we should really avoid confusion and call all of
the Daves 'Bruce'?
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:38:30 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: One for the programmers
At 11:27 -0500 11/2/01, Timothy Little
<tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net> wrote:
>In getting finer detail, calculations are complicated a bit by
>inclined and/or elliptical orbits. Not many planets in our system
>have inclinations and eccentricities sufficient to make much
>difference though, so you can probably ignore it most of the time.
>The only major variation is for Neptune-Pluto transfers.
There's an interesting (if you're that way inclined) book on this:
Fundamentals of Astrodynamics
Bate, Mueller & White
Publisher Dover
ISBN 0-486-60061-0
$12.95
It's based on the USAF Academy's training courses and assumes a basic
(say A level (UK 18 year old exam)) understanding of physics, but
covers all sorts of stuff.
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:55:43 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics
On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 01:07:35 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> On Fri, 9 Feb 2001 22:18:29 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
>> Erickson) wrote:
>>
>>>In mail you write:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 08 Feb 2001 00:05:00 -0800, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Hello Terry,
>>>>> You would have to throw ice water on my back while I'm trying to grapple
>>>>>with the issue of automating the distance finder routine <grin>. The only
>>>>>options I have at this point is to finish my original plans to create the
>>>>>distance finder. Once that is done, perhaps figure a way to trace the
>>>>>shortest distance from point to point via jump drive X where X represents
>>>>>the jump drive value of the ship in question.
>>>>
>>>> That's exactly the sort of software that a functional trader would
>>>> want to have running on his ship's computer. But that is just the
>>>> basic version of the software. Later versions would include a way of
>>>> indexing those jumps cross-indexed by the cost of jump fuel as
>>>> reported on each stop's fuel status reports for other planets.
>>>
>>>As well as what commodities were avalable and which were in demand, so
>>>he could trade along the way.
>>
>> Well, that would make it just too easy. If all merchants used that
>> software exclusively, they certainly wouldn't feel like a "free
>> trader", they'd end up taking all their cargo instructions from their
>> routing program. I would rather keep my merchant owners looking at
>> the program results and then using their own intuition to vary from
>> that optimal route in order to take a plum cargo to that planet just a
>> single jump detour away.
>
>There's no way a program can give "optimal results". It can point out
>things that *might* work. But given comm lag and market forces, there'd
>still be a fair amount of risk.
Of course, the "optimal results" would be subject to the information
the program had available at the time. As you state, the partial
information available would be a major limitation of the program and
part of the gamble for merchants relying upon it.
>> For that matter, the major transit lines would probably have the easy
>> commodities snatched and in the pipeline before a free trader would be
>> able to get a profitable cargo off.
>
>Not necessarily. They are less likely to be interested in "one time"
>shipments or "odd lots".
I can't think of a much better way of describing the lot of a free
trader. This would tend to lessen the value of the commodities market
list you previously suggested adding to the trading program. It is
unlikely that "one time" and "odd lots" would be available on a
commodities report.
Now, you can bet that the major carriers are running the commodities
portion of the software and have it refined to an art. For that
matter, the major carriers are in a position to carry their own
proprietary information back and forth via their own methods.
>> Another matter would be that, while the price of jump fuel might be
>> widely and easily available, market information about the demand for
>> and price of profitable commodities would be a jealously guarded piece
>> of trade information. Who will share it when someone else is likely
>> to make money from that information?
>
>People who are hoping to *sell* it to traders or *buy* it from them.
>
>Of course, since they'll cheerfully sell to or buy from the first
>person to make an acceptable offer, speed will count. Being the
>*second* trader to show up with 50 tons of left handed greeble fixers
>is going to be a great way to *lose* money. :-)
Why wouldn't the person with that commodities information use it
themself and seize the profits rather than sell the information at a
lower price. Of course, they may be more comfortable being an
information broker rather than running the risks of a free trader's
life.
I wonder if the most current data might bring the best return by being
auctioned to the top bidder with a guarantee that it hasn't been
released to anyone else prior to being given to the winner. This
would minimize the risk to the buyer of being the second trader to
arrive with a particular cargo. It _would_ raise the cost for the
buyer, but it would be just another cost of doing business for that
merchant. And, of course, the data's value expires when the next
xboat arrives with an update.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:55:51 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 07:18:39 -0600, "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net>
wrote:
>JR Holmes posted:
>>
>> On Sat, 10 Feb 2001 16:50:49 -0600, John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I have gone through all of my archived keyboard kills to date, and have
>> >found the following TMLers with five kills or more:
>> >
>> >Doug Berry: 17 kills
>>
>> It must be that his clearly superior skills are actually attributable
>> to the concealed assistance he receives from his brother, Dave. He
>> should therefore be disqualified.
>
>Now, now! Every sniper team consists of a shooter and a
>spotter who switch off roles every so often. It doesn't
>the matter who spots target and who takes the shot.
>A kill is a kill.
>David
That Doug attempts to disguise his relation to professional humorist
Dave Barry by cleverly varying the spelling the last name he writes
under is no reason to exempt him from disqualification. He should be
handicapped by the same limp amateur humor I manage to provide (g).
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 11:05:20 -0800
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
> > The Germans were so good at
> > this that the Soviets learned to just accept the losses of charging
over
> > minefields rather than dance to the Wehrmacht's tune.
>
> This was Patton's policy too -- he said you took fewer casualties from the
> mines than you did from the kiling zone the mine channeled you into.
>
> LKW
>
But, you'll notice, Patton never charged through any minefields.
He just slapped soldiers who decided not to.
Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:14:03 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
Hello Larsen,
Under the circumstances...
The difference between an imperial sanctioned "small war" and that of a
trade war is this:
1) small wars generally are between governments and/or megacorporations.
As such, they have a LOT of political power.
2) trade wars that engage in acts of piracy can and will be prosecuted by
the local authorities as acts of "crime". From a Bank's point of view, if
you steal a multi-million credit ship without a letter or Marque, they are
quite within their legal domain to level charges of theft against you with
the nearest local authority. That letter of Marque is all that stands
between you and the gibbit so to speak...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:31:41 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
"The gaps off the Vilani main are 2 parsecs, repeatedly. That is once
you build a deep space refueling station, you reach a small cluster of one
to four systems, and you need to do it again. You would need to
build at least 4 of these deep space stations to get across Corridor.
Meanwhile, the other Vilani corporations are making a much better profit
to rimward."
Thanks Thom!. That makes complete sense. I didn't have the DGP maps
at hand (there around here somewhere...). It also helps explain Hans
Rancke's refugee colonized worlds in pre-Imperial Deneb. They would have
had the RoM's jump-3 technology to get there.
How far into Deneb does the Spinward Main reach? Is there a Deneb Main
too? In other words, how many 2 or 3 parsec gaps are there between that Main
and the one near Vland?
"And the initial Vilani expansion was done using only jump-1 ships. And
by the time the Jump-2 ship came about, the Vilani retained complete
control of the technology. But by that time they already had their
empire, and used the technology to control the places they could get to.
Rarely to expand to new areas."
Wasn't the jump-2 drive what enabled them to launch the Consolidation
Wars, and win them, in the first place? So they had it prior to the
official Ziru Sirka. Not, that it makes any difference. Their efforts with
jump-2 tech would have been building the empire in already settled areas and
not wasting resources to cross a few rifts to reach a few piddling clusters.
"... maintain numerous deep space stations..."
I've been very poor at making myself clear. I'm not talking about some
Deep Space 9 monstrosity built in iinterstellar space. I'm suggesting a
couple kilotons of "ice-teroid" dropped of with a radio beacon and maybe an
automatic fuel cracking station embedded in it. No space station, no
habitats, no shops and bars. Just a few KdTons of water ice lifted there
every few years by a colonial navy's battlerider tender in an effort to
entice more free trader and subsidized merchant traffic.
"You seem to have the idea that the Traveller canon is an inviolate
dogma which can not be questioned. What I find amazing is after 20 years
and more than a hundred authors, the canon is as consistent as it is. So
if there are little problems like the Levithan's jump torpedoes or the
Annic Nova or several dozen other little things you don't like, don't
bother to explain them away, ignore them. Ask Eris about how much of the
traveller canon he uses."
No canon is not inviolate, but the peculiarities in it are worth making
an effort to explain, before dismissing them. I have and do ignore the
examples we talked about. As I said they were the result of poor editorial
control early in Our Olde Game's history.
The game's consistencey over the years is a credit to Mr. Miller et.
al. But there are many "authorized" supplements from other firms that have
to be ignored. I remember one that detailed an entire sector and proposed
the existence of Trek-like matter transporters at Imperial tech levels.
Simply ignoring or waving off an inconvienant part of canon because it
doesn't fit our expectations is no good either. Trying to work all this
stuff out before you wave it off is a really fun part of the game.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:34:56 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: One for the programmers
On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Timothy Little wrote:
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > Note that if the ratio of the semimajor axes of the orbits is more
> > than 15:1, the least fuel orbit *isn't* a Hohmann. Instead, you put
> > the ship into a *parabolic* orbit tangent to the starting orbit,
> [...]
> That doesn't make any sense. A Hohmann transfer involves two thrusts.
> One to make the orbit more elliptical, another to match speed with the
> second body. Both involve less delta-V than that required to go
> parabolic and decelerate from a parabolic into the destination orbit.
> Now, I am aware that the Hohmann delta-V requirements for a 2-impulse
> transfer between circular orbits has a maximum at about 15.58:1, is
> this perhaps what you were thinking of?
My refence (Spacecraft Systems Engineering, Fortescue&Stark, Wiley 1995,
page 107) states that Hohmann tranfer orbit has minimum delta-V if
r2/r1 < 11.8. The book does not present calculations, so this is a bit
suspect. I could do some math when and if I have the time...
Alas, I returned the celestial mechanics book I had been reading to our
radio observatory, so I can't currently check what it said...
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:39:51 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: RE: Boing
On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Dominic Mooney wrote:
> At 16:23 -0500 9/2/01, "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > Jesse, just to avoid confusion, we'll call you 'Dave'. ;-)
> >My Father's name was David ;)
> Actually, perhaps we should really avoid confusion and call all of
> the Daves 'Bruce'?
Well, we could call every male person here 'Frank', execpt one, whom we
should then call 'Pekka'.
(This from perhaps the best Finnish movie ever, Calamari Union. I don't
know if can be acquired somewhere else, but if you can, watch it.)
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:18:02 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
From: hal@buffnet.net
"2) trade wars that engage in acts of piracy can and will be prosecuted
by the local authorities as acts of "crime"
Thanks for your input Hal.
From the "Traveller Adventure" page 108: Economic wars between
business entities, especially megacorporations, that extends beyond the
customary peaceful means of competition in the marketplace is termed
tradewar. Tradewar is a practice which brings companies directly into
physical conflict, involving raids, industrial, and other violent acts."
Apparently the companies involved in tradewars either hire stooges as
patsies to take the blame for the "violent" acts, use forces which give them
"plausible deniability", or have enough political muscle to tell anyone of
the local authorities to go screw if they think about prosecutions.
Page 108 and 109: "Imperial megacorporations and corporation are known
to resort to trade war when it is practical, but alwats within certain
assumed limits of force."
"First of all, any company's customers (as well as all innocent
bystanders) are considered exempt from the effects..."
"Employees of either company are considered soldiers in the war and are
fair game. Equipment and installations of either company are considered
fair target."
Apparently all the insurance companies paying out fees on policies
covering people and property are told to screw also.
Page 109: "Second, since the obeject of tradewar is to disrupt the
enemy company's opearions, there are NO RESTRICTIONS (emphasis mine) on
actions against the the enemy's merchantile operations. Similarly, the
resultant effects of tradewar on customers (lost shipments, delayed
deliveries, etc.) are accepted, even intended, in the effort to destroy the
rival."
About the Oberlindes operation, page 113: "Captured ships which still
have both jump and maneuver capability will be given skeleton crrews and
will jump to the Oberlindes rendevouz point."
Sure enough sounds like piracy to me. How is Oberlindes' getting away
with it? No mention of a letter of marque is made. Can a Imperial noble or
government issue one for use against an Imperial corporation?
Either Oberlindes has the political pull to tell the mortgage holders to
screw or there is enough "plausible deniability" for the perps not to be
identified.
A third possibility is that the information in the "Traveller
Adventure" belongs in the "ignore" portion of Our Olde Game's canon. If so,
does anyone have a list of those items, or pages and paragraphs in certain
items, that I should ignore from now on? An canon errata listing would be
of great help for me.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3639
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3640
Date: | 2/11/01 2:13:17 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Sunday, February 11 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3640
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Vilani Ship Names?
re: Islands - Bad example?
Re: Vilani Ship Names?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Re: FAR TRADER Economics
Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Ignoring Canon and other thoughts
re: Islands - Bad example?
Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
Re:
Re: Deep Space Refuelling, Starship Economics and the Imperium
Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
Re: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
Re: Planetary Maps
Re: Vilani Ship Names?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:24:54 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Vilani Ship Names?
For those of you who, like me, have had difficulty in providing Vilani
names for Imperial Navy warships (the pre-IW Vilani normally didn't name
their ships), here's a suggestion:
1. Open two browser windows.
2. With one window, go to the Nihon Kaigun page that addresses names
for Imperial Japanese Navy vessels:
http://www.combinedfleet.com/ijnnames.htm
3. With the other window, go to the "Vilani by Lonnie" site:
http://tribble.dreamhost.com/vilani.html
4. Use the translations of Japanese ship names as first and last names
(and, where applicable, middle names) in the Vilani name generator.
Ideally, you should use analogous names (i.e., IN cruisers get cruiser
names, IN battleships get battleship names, etc.). Where there is no
two or three word translation of the name, simply use the ship name as
the first name, and its property (such as "province," "mountain," or
"river") as the last name.
Voila! Instant Vilani warship names (appropriate for the type of ship
in question), with translations already provided!
Examples:
1. The IJN battlecruiser _Kirishima's_ name translates as "Misty
Island" (a volcano). Putting this into the Vilani name generator, I get
a list of names, from which I select _Misiriidanarisir Imisirii_. I now
have a Vilani _Kirishima_.
2. The IJN battleship _Hyuga_ is named for a Japanese province. I use
"Hyuga" as the first name, and "province" as the last name, and get
_Hiigekaniram Akhiiga_ (along with other choices).
3. The IJN aircraft carrier _Shokaku's_ name translates as "Happy
Crane." This gives me the option of _Hamiinarashi Rihamii_ as an
equivalent.
You can also use this technique with other navies' ships. Thus, _USS
Montana_ is input as "Montana State," which generates _Maaniranerarasiri
Maanirana_ as a possible name for a battleship.
Share and enjoy!
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:32:43 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Islands - Bad example?
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: re: Islands - Bad example?
...
>Imperial credits are strewn about; causing sporadic commodity shortages,
>buying airtime for extremists groups, bribing politicians and turncoats.
>The PsyOps possibilities are endless.
> By 1105, the Imperium might look at the cluster with pride for their
>handiwork, rather than hand shakes and hand wringing.
And in an orgy of self-congratulation, they ignore the rot about
them in Ilelish :>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:38:41 -0800
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani Ship Names?
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>For those of you who, like me, have had difficulty in providing Vilani
>names for Imperial Navy warships (the pre-IW Vilani normally didn't >name
their ships), here's a suggestion:
>
>1. Open two browser windows.
>
>2. With one window, go to the Nihon Kaigun page that addresses >names for
Imperial Japanese Navy vessels:
>
>http://www.combinedfleet.com/ijnnames.htm
>
>3. With the other window, go to the "Vilani by Lonnie" site:
>
>http://tribble.dreamhost.com/vilani.html
>
>4. Use the translations of Japanese ship names as first and last names
(and, where applicable, middle names) in the Vilani name generator.
Ideally, you should use analogous names (i.e., IN cruisers get cruiser
names, IN battleships get battleship names, etc.). Where there is no two or
three word translation of the name, simply use the ship name as the first
name, and its property (such as "province," "mountain," or "river") as the
last name.
>
LOL~~~~!!!!!!!! They really do put *everything* online!
I never thought of that but now I have a source of names for the Shiratori
Self-Defense Force ships in my novels, too. (OF COURSE they would use those
names... )
>Examples:
>
>1. The IJN battlecruiser _Kirishima's_ name translates as "Misty
>Island" (a volcano). Putting this into the Vilani name generator, I get
>a list of names, from which I select _Misiriidanarisir Imisirii_. I now
>have a Vilani _Kirishima_.
>
Yup. That is what Kirishima means. But y'all are NOT allowed to call me
"Misty" (b/c my ex-husband did), even though it is a legit translation of my
given name.
Although there is a Japanese brand of tea that is called "Mist tea" and I
really want to get a mug with the logo on it because the other translation
is, of course, Kiri's tea. (If written with a different character, my name
can mean a certain type of tree, but the character I actually use means
"fog" or "mist".)
The word "Yuki" means "snow" and the word "Kiri" means fog or mist. When
boys are more forward with my friend Yukiko and me than we would like, we
warn them to back off by saying "Kiri to Yuki wa abunai tenki desu ne..."
(Fog and snow are dangerous weather!)
Yukiko actually *doesn't* use the "snow" character but it makes a good joke.
I had dated Hiroshi for almost three months before I found out that even
though the characters I used to write his name were correct for the other
Hiroshi I knew, they were wrong for his.
ObTrav: Are there any character-based languages in common use in Traveller,
where the same name can have completely different meanings depending upon
which set of characters is used to represent the sounds?
Kiri ^_^
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:07:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
In mail you write:
> obTrav: You can _bet_ this comes under the Imperial rules of war under the
> indiscriminate killing of civilians rule. Either mines are designed to
> decompose safely after a short time, disarm themselves, blow themselves up on
> a radio command, or any merc company or Imperial troops who use 'em are
> required to police their minefields after the action.
I have this picture of a *very* humorless Imperial inspector picking a
few officers and enlisted at random, blind folding them, and telling
them to walk across an area they've "cleared". White canes available on
request...
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:11:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics
In mail you write:
>>> For that matter, the major transit lines would probably have the easy
>>> commodities snatched and in the pipeline before a free trader would be
>>> able to get a profitable cargo off.
>>
>>Not necessarily. They are less likely to be interested in "one time"
>>shipments or "odd lots".
>
> I can't think of a much better way of describing the lot of a free
> trader. This would tend to lessen the value of the commodities market
> list you previously suggested adding to the trading program. It is
> unlikely that "one time" and "odd lots" would be available on a
> commodities report.
But there may well be a sort of "want ads" distributed via xboats and
other ships.
>>> Another matter would be that, while the price of jump fuel might be
>>> widely and easily available, market information about the demand for
>>> and price of profitable commodities would be a jealously guarded piece
>>> of trade information. Who will share it when someone else is likely
>>> to make money from that information?
>>
>>People who are hoping to *sell* it to traders or *buy* it from them.
>>
>>Of course, since they'll cheerfully sell to or buy from the first
>>person to make an acceptable offer, speed will count. Being the
>>*second* trader to show up with 50 tons of left handed greeble fixers
>>is going to be a great way to *lose* money. :-)
>
> Why wouldn't the person with that commodities information use it
> themself and seize the profits rather than sell the information at a
> lower price. Of course, they may be more comfortable being an
> information broker rather than running the risks of a free trader's
> life.
Right. It's much *safer* to sell to and buy from the traders. The
profits are lower, but the risks are *much* lower.
And as I noted, I can see lists of "items wanted" and "items available"
being distributed to surrounding systems. Say out to 3 or 4 jumps?
It'd be relatively cheap, and the risk is all on the part of the folks
*responding* to the listing.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:44:57 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
Hello Larsen,
Regards to "ignore" patterns <Grin> - I tend to use those things which
make the most sense. I seem to recall a major thread going on some time
back that discussed the merits of public domain. For some odd reason, it
looks as though the public domain will start getting fewer and fewer items
as time passes. Why? Because the time period before an item becomes
public domain keeps getting extended somewhat mysteriously. Just when
Mickey Mouse would be due to enter public domain, the law changes that
extends this wait period another 10 to 20 years <grin>.
Does anyone seriously believe, especially after the Fourth Edition of
Traveller came out with the Survey book, that the Imperium would sanction
activities that amount to theft of commercial property without
compensation? Here is what I suspect would happen if theft of ships were
permitted under the Trade Wars Act...
1) ship insurance would skyrocket as more ships are targetted either by
seemingly terrorist activities or outright thefts
2) banks would scream bloody murder as they took losses of such magnitude.
The minimal deposit would change from 20% down payment to something more
like 50% plus. In the meantime, they would likely complain to the
authorities and demand that something be done about it.
3) any ship's captain who desires to get out from under his bank mortgage,
can arrange to have someone else start up a rival corporation, and start a
trade war <grin>. Gee, isn't it a co-incidence that I can steal your ship,
which is the same make and model as mine - while you steal my ship - and
the authorities can't touch us under the current Trade wars act? <snicker>
I just wish I could be a player in someone's campaign who is running their
universe with the TRADE WARS act a canon part of the rules! The Fun I
could have until some smart corporation hires a hit man to put me out of
business <wicked grin>.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:42:25 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
"Well, the aim of the landmine treaty is to prevent stuff like
widespread airborne scattering of landmines in unknown, uncontrolled
locations."
"The problem with land mines are places like Cambodia and the Sudan
where there are _millions_ of the buggers scattered around and no one knows
where they are."
"That is what the landmine treaty is intended to prevent. Alas, since
no one can be counted on to play by the rules, the treaty banned 'em all.
Sadly, that makes it unlikely that the treaty will actually ever work."
The land mine treaty is one of those noble and useless gestures that
are the hallmark of international politics. The people who devised it are
cynically aware it's of no use. They simply proposed it to get a propaganda
point against those countries that didn't sign it. They even got a princess
to help with their PR work. All the countries who signed it will ignore it
at the first opportunity that it suits them to do so. Would you rather sign
it, then lie and violate it, or speak the truth and denounce it for the
piece of bum-wipe it is?
Aerial seeded mines killing children in Nebraska wouldn't make the US
sign, because it's just another piece of useless, feel good, clap trap.
Just like the sea floor mining treaty. Everyone who signed that one didn't
have to technology to do it, so decided to prevent anyone else from doing it
either, and then puked and whined about the US not signing.
I'm sure there a many people who actually think it will work (like me,
you're not one of them). Those folks usually believe that pixies make the
flowers grow too.
The first conferences and treaties of this type were sponsored by Czar
Nicholas II and were held around the turn of the last century. These
treaties banned among other things as the use of poison gas, aerial bombing,
dum-dum bullets, shotguns, and submarine warfare. You can see how well they
worked.
As for me, I'll keep remembering the words of Admiral Jacky Fisher, the
UK's representative to those conferences. His quote: "Humanize war? You
might as talk about humanizing hell!"
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:47:40 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Ignoring Canon and other thoughts
Hello Folks,
Thomas Jones-Low said it better than I could I think <grin>. Most GM's
will pick and chose what they want to use for their campaigns and ignore
those rules that are either a pain in the neck, or just outright "wrong" in
their eyes". I won't bore you all with my ramblings of what is right or
what is wrong with Traveller. I will say this much however:
When the GM asserts that certain "facts" are true within his universe, he
will need to examine how people would use those "facts" in the Traveller
Universe. As some people on the Economics threads are leaning, it would
seem that Jump-1 engines are considered to be something of a minority and
are being phased out as being non-competitive. Perhaps they are right
<grin>. Perhaps, the laws of economic reality are such that Jump-1 tramp
freighters really are the old rusting hulks of ships that have seen better
days. This means then that there really shouldn't be any *new* ships being
built that are just Jump-1 capable! There are those who say that Deep
Space refueling points are a waste of time and money. There are those who
argue against this saying "no no no, this is *needed*". Perhaps both sides
are correct. When Jump-1 ships were all that existed, Deep space refueling
was mandatory to reach those areas that needed Jump-2's when Jump-2 didn't
exist. Once Jump-2 technology came into existance, these once vital
centers of refueling started to lose business and eventually went bankrupt.
The point I am trying to make here is this:
Traveller with too many "mistakes" detracts from some people's ability to
enjoy the universe.
There, I've said it. I am a Traveller Heretic. If something is wrong in
my eyes, I fix it. If computer sizes are wrong, I fix it. If economic
rules are wrong, I fix it. If something doesn't look right, I look at it
and try to see what I think is wrong about it. Best of all? If I am wrong
in my fixes, someone else on the list may know more about it to the extent
that they can fix it for me. That is one reason why I subscribe to any
mailing list - the ability to discuss issues with others so that I *can*
get a different viewpoint than my own. Until I talked with some people on
this list, I'd have never considered giving a price break on Jump-1 Drives
as being "early tech" devices. As it is, it doesn't really offer that much
of a savings over straight "price list" cost, but it does trim the cost of
Jump-1 drives by about 1 million for a Beowulf trader. It does however
trim the monthl cost owed to the bank by about $4,000 credits. This in
turn permits the Far Trader to trim his "minimal" 700 credit fee per jump
for cargo transport down a smattering. Best of all? It fits my "belief"
that a Jump 1 slower moving ship can charge a lesser fee such that his two
jump-1's will be marginally cheaper than a Jump-2's single jump fee. Will
many others follow my belief? Probably not <grin>. Is this a bad thing?
Not in my view. All that matters is that if you GM Traveller, that the
"universe" feels right for you. If you play in a Traveller Universe, that
you have fun. Anything else is a waste of time.
As it is? I already ignore GURPS canon in that I've created some Meson
spinal mounts that contradict canon. Why? I looked at the Original HIGH
GUARD rules on Meson Spinal Mounts. If you look at the progression on the
to hit charts, you find that as the spinal mounts become more advanced,
they hit their targets more often (as evidenced by the better to hit
values). They also inflict more "criticals" for every size grouping they
have above their target. To me, this implies the idea that there are
multiple hits occuring during each fire phase. And finally? In HIGH
GUARD, meson screens are effective. As Meson guns are written in GURPS
now, no amount of Meson Screening will deflect an incoming Meson shot.
This contradicts the HIGH GUARD rules in a major way. So which do I use?
GURPS canon, or GURPS weapon construction rules in a manner that violates
the new canon? I of course, chose the latter. If anyone is interested,
there is a website with my heretical musings at
http://www.buffnet.net/~hal.
Those who are interested in taking that information and archiving it are
advised to do so soon, because I will be redoing my web page and likely
taking material off permanently. Of course, much of that material will be
of little use once GURPS STARSHIPS comes out <grin>...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:01:04 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: Islands - Bad example?
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: Islands - Bad example?
"Imperial credits are strewn about; causing sporadic commodity
shortages, buying airtime for extremists groups, bribing politicians and
turncoats. The PsyOps possibilities are endless."
"By 1105, the Imperium might look at the cluster with pride for their
handiwork, rather than hand shakes and hand wringing."
"And in an orgy of self-congratulation, they ignore the rot about
them in Ilelish :> "
LOL! I know, ironic isn't it? Maybe the Island psyop work became the
tail that wagged the dog? The Imperial director of intelligence in Ilelish
had earned all his promotions thanks to his work in the Islands and is
fixated on them, to the detriment of the department's other missions.
Incompetence in the Imperium's higher levels isn't anything new. Can you
say Sector Admiral Frederick Santanocheev?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:03:58 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling (Was: Islands subsectors)
Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com> writes:
>Have y'all considered that Imperium's turn is two standard years? And,
>at that scale deep-space jumps might not be apparent?
Yes. It makes no difference.
One of the main strategies of Imperium is establishing chokepoints
(Nusku/Dushaam is one of the best IMO, since you can do both frontier
and civilised maintenance there) - and so block the enemy from raiding
your inner areas. If fleets could just jump through deep space and
raid *any* of your planets, the entire game would play differently.
Also, there's be no need for all those green lines connecting stars:
with 2-year turns you could just pick your fleet up and place it
wherever you wanted to.
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:06:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:
Challenges 53, 54 and 60 for Wet Navy and Challenge 61 for "Wood, Wind,
Steel & Steam."
- --- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> I need some information, or more importantly the URLs where to
> find it.
> There was a propulsion and/or power technology in MT concerning
> "rotary
> sails". Think about laying a windmill on it's side, then shorten the
>
> diameter of the windmill's vanes and increase their height.
> You end up with a tall mast with several equally tall, small width
> vanes
> attached to it. The whole contraption is sheathed in tube with two
> vertical
> slits in it. Wind comes in one slit, turns the vanes, and exits the
> other
> slit. The revolving mast is attached to some sort of transmission to
> drive
> whatever.
> Can anybody point me in the right direction to find the MT
> design
> particulars? And the "wet navy" design and combat rules too?
> Thanks in advance.
>
>
> Larsen
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
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**********************************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:09:20 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refuelling, Starship Economics and the Imperium
>From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
>Subject: Deep Space Refueling, Starship Economics and the Imperium
>
>Just a few thoughts:
>
>If the Imperium gets its revenue from taking a cut of passage and
>freight costs (roll this into the life support costs for the trip),
>wouldn't it do everything in its power to promote the movement of goods
>and people between worlds?
One of the best things it can do is not take a cut, but invoice planetary governments for it's revenue
instead. That way, space travel and interstellar trade is relatively cheaper.
>
>If your mini-main lies a couple of parsecs off one of the larger mains,
>wouldn't the Imperium bankroll a deep-space fueling station to enusre
>the maximum amount of trade with that mini-main?
>
What sort of main are we talking about ? A jump-1 main, or a jump-2 or -3 main ?
>We already know they undertake other operations to ensure the flow of
>trade continues (anti-piracy, convoying in time of war, etc.), so why
>not deep-space fueling caches?
>
>
Same reason they dont improve those type E starports in inconvenient places, I guess.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 15:23:53 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>
> Hello Larsen,
> Regards to "ignore" patterns <Grin> - I tend to use those things which
> make the most sense. I seem to recall a major thread going on some time
> back that discussed the merits of public domain. For some odd reason, it
> looks as though the public domain will start getting fewer and fewer items
> as time passes. Why? Because the time period before an item becomes
> public domain keeps getting extended somewhat mysteriously. Just when
> Mickey Mouse would be due to enter public domain, the law changes that
> extends this wait period another 10 to 20 years <grin>.
Personally, I agree with the premise of Spider Robinson's story
"Melancholy Elephants," which is that copyright _must_ have a set
expiration date, or we as a species will face psychic trauma on an
unprecedented scale. (For those not fortunate enough to own Spider's
_Melancholy Elephants_, the story is in reprint in his new collection
_By Any Other Name_.)
ObTrav: For those of you who have had the good fortune of reading
"Melancholy Elephants," imagine how much more severely this issue might
have affected the Vilani, given that their patent law protects both the
patented concept _and_ any concepts that are based on the original
concept. For those of you who haven't read the story, I quote the
single most important sentence:
"Have you ever seen a cheerful elephant?"**
**Note: Elephants involved in the Famille Spofulam Elephant-Mounted
Particle Accelerator may well be cheerful. These fortunate creatures
are merely the exception that proves the rule.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:47:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
Maybe there is a formal process for declaring a trade war, with a
built-in delay giving customers and insurance companies time to put
their houses in order before the shootin' begins...
- --- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
> From: hal@buffnet.net
> "2) trade wars that engage in acts of piracy can and will be
> prosecuted
> by the local authorities as acts of "crime"
>
>
> Thanks for your input Hal.
>
> From the "Traveller Adventure" page 108: Economic wars between
> business entities, especially megacorporations, that extends beyond
> the
> customary peaceful means of competition in the marketplace is termed
> tradewar. Tradewar is a practice which brings companies directly
> into
> physical conflict, involving raids, industrial, and other violent
> acts."
>
> Apparently the companies involved in tradewars either hire
> stooges as
> patsies to take the blame for the "violent" acts, use forces which
> give them
> "plausible deniability", or have enough political muscle to tell
> anyone of
> the local authorities to go screw if they think about prosecutions.
>
> Page 108 and 109: "Imperial megacorporations and corporation
> are known
> to resort to trade war when it is practical, but alwats within
> certain
> assumed limits of force."
> "First of all, any company's customers (as well as all innocent
> bystanders) are considered exempt from the effects..."
> "Employees of either company are considered soldiers in the war
> and are
> fair game. Equipment and installations of either company are
> considered
> fair target."
>
> Apparently all the insurance companies paying out fees on
> policies
> covering people and property are told to screw also.
>
> Page 109: "Second, since the obeject of tradewar is to disrupt
> the
> enemy company's opearions, there are NO RESTRICTIONS (emphasis mine)
> on
> actions against the the enemy's merchantile operations. Similarly,
> the
> resultant effects of tradewar on customers (lost shipments, delayed
> deliveries, etc.) are accepted, even intended, in the effort to
> destroy the
> rival."
>
> About the Oberlindes operation, page 113: "Captured ships which
> still
> have both jump and maneuver capability will be given skeleton crrews
> and
> will jump to the Oberlindes rendevouz point."
>
> Sure enough sounds like piracy to me. How is Oberlindes'
> getting away
> with it? No mention of a letter of marque is made. Can a Imperial
> noble or
> government issue one for use against an Imperial corporation?
> Either Oberlindes has the political pull to tell the mortgage holders
> to
> screw or there is enough "plausible deniability" for the perps not to
> be
> identified.
> A third possibility is that the information in the "Traveller
> Adventure" belongs in the "ignore" portion of Our Olde Game's canon.
> If so,
> does anyone have a list of those items, or pages and paragraphs in
> certain
> items, that I should ignore from now on? An canon errata listing
> would be
> of great help for me.
>
> Larsen
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" — Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act 3, Scene 1
**********************************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:47:58 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Maps
on 2/11/01 3:14 AM, Steve Daniels at stevedaniels@portcaddo.com wrote:
> http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/
[snip]
> Take a look from your browser.
> http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/Travmaps/Hexworld1080.gif
>
> bloo
>
>
Thanks, Bloo.
I ended up building my own hex map in Illustrator since I wanted a
transparent overlay, and also prefer vector graphics since they resize
better.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:41:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Vilani Ship Names?
In mail you write:
> I had dated Hiroshi for almost three months before I found out that even
> though the characters I used to write his name were correct for the other
> Hiroshi I knew, they were wrong for his.
>
> ObTrav: Are there any character-based languages in common use in Traveller,
> where the same name can have completely different meanings depending upon
> which set of characters is used to represent the sounds?
Well, a lot of folks, especially English speakers, but also a lot of
Europeans don't seem to realize that there are at least *three* ways of
writing a language:
alphabetic These are characterized by (generally) one character
representing one phoneme. English is pretty bad at
this, most other alphabetic systems are a lot better.
ideographic One character per word/concept. Chinese, hierogylphics
(mostly), etc.
syllabaric(?) The languages uses a syllabary. Each character
represents a *syllable* in a word. As near as I can
tell, both hirigana and katakana fit this.
It's that third kind that tend to catch folks by surprise. The rules
are rather different from those for alphabetic systems. For one thing,
foreign words are hard to represent even if they don't contain any
unusual phonemes, simply because because they contain phoneme
*combinations* that can't be represented.
A referee could have some fun with this. How long will it take the
players to realize that the name they got contains extra sounds because
they got it as it us (forced) to be represented in language A, but it's
actually a name from language B, which won't sound at all the same. :-)
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3640
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3641
Date: | 2/11/01 5:23:02 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Sunday, February 11 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3641
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Re: One for the programmers
Re: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
Re: Planetary Maps
Re: One for the programmers
Re: One for the programmers
Re: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
Re: Deep Space Refulling
Re: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
Taran [Long!]
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: Deep Space Refulling
Re: Planetary Maps
: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Landgrab Question
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Vilani Ship Names?
RE: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:26:44 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
My favorite Soviet WWII manuevers/combat techniques:
- The Taran. Named for the first pilot who tried it and
died as a result. Late war German fighters (I can't recall
if it was mostly 190s or 109s, probably the latter) used a lot
of wood in the tail assembly due to meta shortages. That's
where lots of important stuff is -- horizontal and vertical stabilizers,
rudders, and elevators. Soviet pilots tended to run out of ammo
in protracted dogfights. Pilot Taran decides to chew up the
tail of a Luftwaffe pilot with his propeller. Watching Ben Hur
too many times I guess. The move succeeded. Tail gone,
plane goes down. But that was true for Taran as well.
Several other Soviet pilots resorted to this. Some learned to
prepare for bailing before trying it and managed to survive.
One pilot did it *twice*! First time, he thought he land the plane
but crashed - lost his legs and got aluminum replacement legs
(surprising number of soviet pilots flew in combat with alum. legs,
including one female pilot IIRC). Gets back in the air. Does it
again. He died the second time, but got a German each time.
- The Dog Mine. The Soviets trained dogs to carry mines on
their backs, crawl under German Tiger tanks where the mine
would stick. They stopped the practice when they discovered
that they had trained the dogs too well. They only had Soviet
tanks to practice with and the dogs were very good at placing
the mines under the tanks they had practiced on. Brings new
meaning the phrase - practice the way you play.
- -bloo
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> > The Germans were so good at
> > this that the Soviets learned to just accept the losses of charging over
> > minefields rather than dance to the Wehrmacht's tune.
>
> This was Patton's policy too -- he said you took fewer casualties from the
> mines than you did from the kiling zone the mine channeled you into.
>
> LKW
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:19:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: One for the programmers
In mail you write:
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Note that if the ratio of the semimajor axes of the orbits is more
>> than 15:1, the least fuel orbit *isn't* a Hohmann. Instead, you put
>> the ship into a *parabolic* orbit tangent to the starting orbit,
> [...]
>
> That doesn't make any sense. A Hohmann transfer involves two thrusts.
> One to make the orbit more elliptical, another to match speed with the
> second body. Both involve less delta-V than that required to go
> parabolic and decelerate from a parabolic into the destination orbit.
> Now, I am aware that the Hohmann delta-V requirements for a 2-impulse
> transfer between circular orbits has a maximum at about 15.58:1, is
> this perhaps what you were thinking of?
Nope. I was quoting as best I can from an article on the subject. It's
been 10-20 years, but I know I've got the details I gave correct. Keep
in mind that if you *were* able to wait for the craft to go out to
infinity, that burn would have a magnitude of *zero*.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:31:22 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> Apparently all the insurance companies paying out fees on policies
> covering people and property are told to screw also.
Megacorps at this level would be 'self-insuring', IMHO. Or whatever
polices they could get would have "War & Strife" clauses which make
the policy void if the insured ship is taken into a known area of war
or other forms of violent conflict.
Besides, who has the financial wherewithall to insure a MegaCorps?
Only another MegaCorps for the substantial stuff.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:33:23 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> 1) ship insurance would skyrocket as more ships are targetted either by
> seemingly terrorist activities or outright thefts
Why would any insurance company insure a ship that was likely to
be targetted for attack?
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:35:10 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Maps
Tod Glenn wrote:
> I ended up building my own hex map in Illustrator since I wanted a
> transparent overlay, and also prefer vector graphics since they resize
> better.
I like vector too, which is why there are three vector formats
there. :-)
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:01:16 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: One for the programmers
Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Nope. I was quoting as best I can from an article on the
> subject. It's been 10-20 years, but I know I've got the details I
> gave correct. Keep in mind that if you *were* able to wait for the
> craft to go out to infinity, that burn would have a magnitude of
> *zero*.
Yeah, I made a math error :( I was ignoring the second burn anyway;
it's the third one that tripped me up.
The actual critical ratio isn't 15 though, but closer to 12. Unless
I've made another math error, but this time I used two different
derivations and got the same answer so I'm a bit more confident :)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:05:01 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: One for the programmers
Dominic Mooney wrote:
> There's an interesting (if you're that way inclined) book on this:
>
> Fundamentals of Astrodynamics
> Bate, Mueller & White
I'll take a look -- I've been doing enough orbital mechanics stuff
recently that deriving everything from first principles is getting to
be a pain :(
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:25:51 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
Steve Daniels wrote:
> Megacorps at this level would be 'self-insuring', IMHO. Or whatever
> polices they could get would have "War & Strife" clauses which make
> the policy void if the insured ship is taken into a known area of
> war or other forms of violent conflict.
Obviously megacorps in 3I aren't subject to legal action by citizens
whose lives are seriously impacted by such actions. It wouldn't take
many punitive damage lawsuits resulting from destruction of
life-essential medical supplies or collateral damage before the
megacorps thought twice about engaging in barely legal forms of
piracy.
I mean, how far are such actions allowed to impact the lives of
non-employees? Does the "licence to kill" extend to external
contractors? What about incidental non-employees who happen to be on
the bridge or in engineering when you blow it up? How much blood
money does the corp have to pay, and to whom?
I find these very interesting questions about the sort of society that
legitimizes large-scale lethal violence between civilian groups.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 23:33:24 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
>anything. The First Imperium's size and shape are a historical and
>astrographical equivalent of the human appendix. They, and it, are
>evolutionary left overs. They made sense at the time, but are of no use
>today.
Unless, like me, you think that finding reasonable-sounding
explanations for items in canon that seem to make no sense as being
part of the fun...
Actually, another explanation for the shape of the Ziru Sirka is that
once it *did* include large areas to Coreward of Vland, but these were
lost (to the Vargr) and now have no human settlement. After all,
aren't there references to the ZS having 15 sectors, as opposed to the
3I's 11?
> Think of the jump torpedoes in A:4 "Levithan" or the supposed
>"mysteriousness" of an Imperial subsector in the Trojan Reach five parsec
>from Glisten. They are both one time results of poor editorial control and
>cannot be explained away.
>
Jump torpedoes aren't only mentioned in Adventure 4: they're also
referred to on page 18 of Book Two: Starships...
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 23:34:31 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
"I find these very interesting questions about the sort of society that
legitimizes large-scale lethal violence between civilian groups."
So do I. Should we place trade wars in the jump torpedo/Annic Nova
file? Any concensus here?
I can't come up with any rational excuse for what supposedly occurs
during a trade war. Burger King can gun down the pimply faced kid running
McDonald's fryalator just because he's an employee? Beoing can try and slip
faulty turbine blades into an engine assembly line because they're going to
AirBus? Good grief!
I only brought it up as a reference during the thread on deep space
refueling an I'm sorry I did.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:46:41 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com>
Subject: Taran [Long!]
At 04:26 PM 2/11/01 -0600, you wrote:
>My favorite Soviet WWII manuevers/combat techniques:
>
> - The Taran. Named for the first pilot who tried it and
>died as a result. Late war German fighters (I can't recall
>if it was mostly 190s or 109s, probably the latter) used a lot
>of wood in the tail assembly due to meta shortages. That's
>where lots of important stuff is -- horizontal and vertical stabilizers,
>rudders, and elevators. Soviet pilots tended to run out of ammo
>in protracted dogfights. Pilot Taran decides to chew up the
>tail of a Luftwaffe pilot with his propeller. Watching Ben Hur
>too many times I guess. The move succeeded. Tail gone,
>plane goes down. But that was true for Taran as well.
Lt. I. Ivanov, of the 46th air fighter regiment (IAP) would appear to have
conducted the first "Taran" attack of the war at about 4:25 AM on June 22,
1941 - a bit over an hour and a half after the start of Operation
Barbarossa - ramming an He-111H over the Zholvka. Both planes went down
with no survivors.
Later, during the afternoon of June 22, 1941, Lt. D. V. Kokorev of the
124th IAP attacked and "shot down" a Bf-110c by ramming it's rudder, after
Kokorev's I-16 ran out of ammunition. Kokorev was able to crash-land his
aircraft, though, and walked away from it... The German aircrew didn't
survive.
A. I. Moklyak managed to shoot down two German aircraft in his I-16 (which
considering how meagerly armed the thing was, was quite a feat in itself!)
and rammed a third after running out of ammo.
A total of at least 9 Soviet pilots carried out taran attacks on June 22, 1941.
There were actually three types (of which I'm aware, anyway...) of taran
attacks... The sane-ist was to slowly approach the enemy a/c from the rear
and use one's propellor to chop up their rudder, hopefully causing them a
fatal loss of control. The Tarannyy Udar involved simply ramming the enemy
a/c and hoping for the best. Another type of taran attack was similar to
what the British did to buzz bombs - fly up near the enemy a/c's wing-tip
and do a sharp barrel roll away, trying to flip the enemy aircraft out of
control. This was the least successful method, but the safest to the
attacker...
Early in the war, the taran attack was looked upon as worthwhile because
the trade-off between an obsolescent Soviet fighter (an I-15 or I-16, a
MiG-1, or a LaGG-3, most likely) for a German bomber was
cost-effective. Soviet pilots, as a matter of course, wore parachutes and
were quite willing to use them if, ammo expended, they saw ramming as a
viable option...
Later, though, Soviet policy changed, as a) their aircraft (La-5/7/7fn,
Yak-3/7/9, etc.) became more advanced (and costly) and b) their aircrew
gained experience that would be wasted should they kill themselves by
ramming the foe... The taran seems to have completely died out (no pun
intended) after 1943, other than extremely isolated incidents...
Something over 200 such attacks were made during the first half of the war,
mainly as a way to bring down the bigger multi-engined aircraft - bombers
and the like. 18 pilots conducted at least two taran attacks, Aleksandr
Hlobystov (147 IAP) conducted 3 tarans, and Lt. Boris Kobzan (184 IAP) was
credited with (and survived!) 4...
It was a matter, I think, of using the tools available to carry out the
mission assigned... It had one salutory effect for the Soviets - German
bomber and recce aircrew were scared to death of Soviet fighters after the
first week or so of the war, as word of the taran tactic spread. It was
like the US tanker's reaction to any German tank after D-Day (i.e., "It's a
Tiger!") - every Soviet fighter in the air was trying to ram THEM personally...
BTW - I'm not literate in Russian, but I *think* "taran" means "ram"... It
most often appears uncapitalized in print, which leads one away from
thinking of it as somebody's name...
Oh - I'm not making this up! Read von Hardesty's "Red Phoenix"
(Smithsonian Press) for a good operational history of the Soviet Airforce
during WW II...
Bill Rutherford
worj@home.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:30:34 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
Dear Folks -
Kiri wrote:
>This is what comes of the tendency to equate all religions with
>Christianity (which does, no matter how much some Christians don't like to
>hear this, have a tendency to frown on asking too many questions, esp. of
>God himself. Some variants of the Christian God make marine drill
>sergeants look question-friendly.)
????? Maybe they should try reading Job.
Or a few of the Psalms. Plenty of questions there.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 23:55:53 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
"Actually, another explanation for the shape of the Ziru Sirka is that
once it *did* include large areas to Coreward of Vland, but these were lost
(to the Vargr) and now have no human settlement. After all,
aren't there references to the ZS having 15 sectors, as opposed to the
3I's 11?"
Took a peak at "Vilani and Vargr" They have one of those "dot maps"
showing the entire extant of the Ziru Sirka.(DGP has similar maps in the
"Solomani and Aslan" book too)
There were portions of the Ziru Sirka that were "lost" to the Vargr.
Most of it is now called the Julian Protectorate.
The Vilani expansion coreward took place some distance trailing of
Vland. A map of the Ziru Sirka has a surprising resemblance to that of the
Korean penninsular. Put both Koreas together and it looks real close.
Vland is very near the north-west corner. The territories that became the
Julian Protectorate extend some distance north-east. Terra just beyond the
southern coast.
The supposed "lop-sided" expansion refers to the relative paucity of
Vilani territory coreward and spinward in Vland's immediate vicinity when
compared to how far rimward and trailing they traveled.
Another poster (who's name I can't remember, sorry!) pointed out that a
series of 2 to 3 parsec wide "mini-rifts" exist spinward and coreward of the
general area of Vland. With only jump-2 drives and the fact that huge mains
lead trailing and rinward, this accident of astrography sent their efforts
in other directions.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:04:31 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Maps
on 2/11/01 2:35 PM, Steve Daniels at stevedaniels@portcaddo.com wrote:
>
>
> Tod Glenn wrote:
>
>> I ended up building my own hex map in Illustrator since I wanted a
>> transparent overlay, and also prefer vector graphics since they resize
>> better.
>
> I like vector too, which is why there are three vector formats
> there. :-)
>
> bloo
>
>
But none that my macintosh will recognize.
:(
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:28:43 -0800
From: "James W. Brewer" <jwbrewer@ucsd.edu>
Subject: : Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
>Well, the aim of the landmine treaty is to prevent stuff like widespread
>airborne scattering of landmines in unknown, uncontrolled locations. As
>claymores are manually emplaced in known locations, I'm not exactly
sure >that they are covered under the treaty, so long as they're
_dis_emplaced later. In other words, they're not landmines, they're booby
traps.
>The problem with land mines are places like Cambodia and the Sudan
where >there are _millions_ of the buggers scattered around and no one
knows where >they are. ...
>obTrav: You can _bet_ this comes under the Imperial rules of war under the
>indiscriminate killing of civilians rule. Either mines are designed to
>decompose safely after a short time, disarm themselves, blow themselves
up >on a radio command, or any merc company or Imperial troops who use 'em are
>required to police their minefields after the action.
>Bruce Johnson
>College of Pharmacy
>Information Technology Group
There is one problem with abolishing mines. It is extremely easy to turn
munitions such as artillery shells and mortar bombs into mines as the US
found in vietnam as the recipient. It's amazing how little is left after
an apc sets off a 500 lb bomb. I was in the US Army artillery and learned
how to set the fuse for point detonation and defeat the setback safety to
turn it into a mine. Even the proximity fuses could be used over the very
short term to achieve a detonation when the body of a vehicle passes over
to allow the hollow charge shells to attack armor.
A Former Redleg
Jim Brewer
jwbrewer@ucsd.edu
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:00:29 -0500
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: Landgrab Question
Fellow Travellers,
I don't have the ability to look at the official website right now, and was
wondering whether anyone had claimed any of the following worlds:
Forboldn (Regina/SM 0208-E893614-4)
Knorbes (Regina/SM 0207-E888787-2)
Whanga (Regina/SM 206-E676126-7)
If no-one has taken these, I would really like to stake a claim on one or
more. With 12 hours of night shift tonight, I'm gonna need something to
do...
Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:00:45 -0800
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
>Dear Folks -
>
>Kiri wrote:
>>This is what comes of the tendency to equate all religions with
>>Christianity (which does, no matter how much some Christians >>don't like
to hear this, have a tendency to frown on asking too
>>many questions, esp. of God himself. Some variants of the >>Christian God
make marine drill sergeants look question-friendly.)
>
>????? Maybe they should try reading Job.
This is an example of the benevolence of the Christian God toward those who
ask questions?
>Or a few of the Psalms. Plenty of questions there.
Perhaps so, but I tend to avoid arguing with people who belong to other
religions about their scripture, even though I may have (in the course of
obtaining an MA in late ancient/early medieval history) had to study it more
than they ever did.
(Aside from my conversion experience at Gokokuji, my familiarity with
Christianity and its history would have made it impossible for me to become
a Christian even if I had never become anything else. It's hard to believe
that any book is the absolute revealed divine truth after you know that it
has been edited, repeatedly, by persons with specific political intentions
in mind, beginning with Constantine's hand-picked bishops in Nicaea, after
which Christianity became decidedly less anti-militaristic and more socially
conservative-- and moving forward from there.)
Kiri ^_^
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:22:03 -0800
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani Ship Names?
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>In mail you write:
>
>> I had dated Hiroshi for almost three months before I found out that
>>even though the characters I used to write his name were correct >>for the
other Hiroshi I knew, they were wrong for his.
>>
>> ObTrav: Are there any character-based languages in common >>use in
Traveller, where the same name can have completely >>different meanings
depending upon which set of characters is used to represent the sounds?
>
>Well, a lot of folks, especially English speakers, but also a lot of
>Europeans don't seem to realize that there are at least *three* ways >of
writing a language:
>
>alphabetic These are characterized by (generally) one character
> representing one phoneme. English is pretty bad at
> this, most other alphabetic systems are a lot better.
>
>ideographic One character per word/concept. Chinese, hierogylphics
(mostly), etc.
Not exactly. Chinese characters, which are used in all Chinese dialects, as
well as in Japanese and sometimes in Korean, are often made up of other
characters. The "radicals" sometimes express concepts and sometimes
express that this character sounds similar to another word. For instance
the character for "horse" appears in Chinese words for "mother" and
"scolding" because they are all the syllable "ma" in Mandarin, just spoken
in different tones.
(I hate the Chinese language. It drives me bugfuck. Kenji and I have
expressed our frustrations with it on a number of occasions. He knows more
of it than I ever will, most likely. I plan to learn just enough of it to
be able to read Japanese classics and not be totally confused by Chinese
medicine and menus.)
>syllabaric(?) The languages uses a syllabary. Each character
> represents a *syllable* in a word. As near as I can
> tell, both hirigana and katakana fit this.
Hiragana and katakana are syllabaries, but kanji are not, and you can't even
read most street signs, let alone the newspaper, without knowing them.
About 2000 of them are needed for full adult literacy, and I'm still working
on that.
The syllabaries are derived from kanji. Katakana were developed by Buddhist
monks to facilitate reading comprehension of sacred texts and hiragana were
developed by women at court to make writing notes and letters easier.
Nowadays, hiragana is generally used for native Japanese words and katakana
for foreign words. Hiragana are also used for various grammatical items
that are necessary for comprehension, such as the inflected endings on verbs
and adjectives and the particles that hold your sentence together.
(Japanese, unlike Chinese, IS an inflected language and is NOT a tonal
language. Many people forget this!!!)
>It's that third kind that tend to catch folks by surprise. The rules
>are rather different from those for alphabetic systems. For one >thing,
foreign words are hard to represent even if they don't contain >any unusual
phonemes, simply because because they contain >phoneme *combinations* that
can't be represented.
All true.
>A referee could have some fun with this. How long will it take the
>players to realize that the name they got contains extra sounds >because
they got it as it is (forced) to be represented in language >A, but it's
actually a name from language B, which won't sound at all >the same. :-)
True. When written in Japanese my name looks like this in romaji:
Morugan (katakana) Kiri (kanji) Arajia (katakana, if I even bother
including this part).
Or, for those of you as can see the actual fonts:
ƒ‚ƒ‹ƒKƒ“–¶ƒAƒ‰ƒaƒA
This is the same Kiri that is in the name of the ship Kirishima (–¶“‡) but not
the same as the ship that was just named Kiri, which was named after a tree
(‹Ë).
This affects the way Japanese people pronounce English words. Many people
call me "Morugan-san". (Though anyone who knows me socially is usually
calling me "Kiri-chan" within 10 minutes.)
In addition to this, many words that appear to be English don't mean the
same thing in Japanese that they would in English.
Never compliment someone, especially a female, on her "pantsu". "Pantsu"
are panties.
A "moteru" is not a cheap place to stay the night, it's a cheap place to
take your date for a couple hours (aka love hotel).
And "baikingu" isn't exercise with a bicycle, it's a breakfast smorgasbord--
"baikingu" means "Viking" which for some reason got to be the word for
"smorgasbord" in Japanese.
I do, however, consider the Japanese term "sexfriend" to be nicer-sounding
than "fuckbuddy" and really wish it would catch on in English.
And "furin" which sounds like "fling" really does mean affair-- but it's a
native Japanese word that just happens to sound like what it actually means
in English.
Confused yet?
BTW, in some dialects, that nasty Japanese consonant that is not quite an
"L" and not quite an "R" can sound like a "D". When I speak quickly, I have
to be careful lest Americans think that my name is either Carrie or Kitty.
I find being called "Carrie" especially odious.
lol,
Kiri
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:17:14 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
> Does anyone seriously believe, especially after the Fourth Edition of
>Traveller came out with the Survey book, that the Imperium would sanction
>activities that amount to theft of commercial property without
>compensation? Here is what I suspect would happen if theft of ships were
>permitted under the Trade Wars Act...
>
>1) ship insurance would skyrocket as more ships are targetted either by
>seemingly terrorist activities or outright thefts
>
I suspect that Megacorp ships are self-insured, the way that many major
corporations are self-insured today. When you have enough assets it becomes
cheaper to absorb loss than to pay an insurance company a greater amount a
year than you will lose for insurance.
>2) banks would scream bloody murder as they took losses of such magnitude.
>The minimal deposit would change from 20% down payment to something more
>like 50% plus. In the meantime, they would likely complain to the
>authorities and demand that something be done about it.
Megacorps also most likely don't finance ships individually, the way PC's
and small time NPC business people do. They either borrow large amounts for
business ventures, some of which is spent on shipping, or they raise the
money be selling stocks or bonds. As a matter of fact the fact that a local
small company cannot survive a Trade War, due to being unable to absorb the
losses is probably one of the reasons that Megacorps are so dominant, and
one of the reasons small companies avoid Trade Wars with a Megacorp.
>
>3) any ship's captain who desires to get out from under his bank mortgage,
>can arrange to have someone else start up a rival corporation, and start a
>trade war <grin>. Gee, isn't it a co-incidence that I can steal your ship,
>which is the same make and model as mine - while you steal my ship - and
>the authorities can't touch us under the current Trade wars act? <snicker>
>
I suspect that unless you're a Megacorp, with a few dozen Nobles on your
board of directors you'll find yourself on a nice cold penal colony. After
all the Imperium is a place of men not laws. It's all in who you are and who
you know. You average run-of-the-mill ship's captain will find himself on
the "A" list of the Bank, Insurance Company and probably quite a few bounty
hunters and repo specialists, not to mention the MOJ and the Navy (piracy
suppression, you know.) Only the captains of major corporation vessels would
get a pass on losing a ship in a Trade War, any the captains career would
probably be bottoms up afterward.
>I just wish I could be a player in someone's campaign who is running their
>universe with the TRADE WARS act a canon part of the rules! The Fun I
>could have until some smart corporation hires a hit man to put me out of
>business <wicked grin>.
>
> Hal
Hit man? Nahh. That's too easy. Imperial Marines enforce violations of the
Rules of War, and piracy. And just hope that your bank isn't a subsidiary of
Hortalez et Cie, there won't be anywhere in known space you can hide from
their hackers. And you thought Sandra Bullock had trouble in "The Net".
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3641
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3642
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Traveller-digest Sunday, February 11 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3642
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
[BITS] Website Update 11 Feb 2001
RE: Boing
Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Re: Planetary Maps
Was: RE:Anti-RPG but has become much more malignant...
Re: FAR TRADER Economics
RE: Rob Davenports 'Boring' thoughts (was Science Fiction)
Re: Anti-RPG (LONG)
RE: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Re: One for the programmers
Re: Planetary Maps
RE: Anti-RPG
re: Islands - Bad example?
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Re: Deep Space Refulling
RE: Anti-RPG
Re: Anti-RPG
Re: Landgrab Question
Re: Islands subsectors
VERY quick Flaming Eye question....
Re: Deep Space Refulling
Re: Islands - Bad example?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:56:04 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: [BITS] Website Update 11 Feb 2001
BITS - British Isles Traveller Support
http://www.bits.org.uk/
11 February 2001 - The BITS website has finally had the first of a
number of planned updates, delayed nearly four months by the
webmaster's loss of computer hard drive and back up failure. This
update includes the following changes:
- - Details of the Periodicals Bibliography (AVAILABLE NOW) by Timothy Collinson.
This the the counterpart to 'the Traveller Bibliography', and details
all the articles in the five main Traveller magazines. Apologies to
Tim for the delay in this addition.
- - Details of many UK and Ireland conventions.
These include the five conventions that BITS is currently committed
to attending in the UK. The information covers the period until July
2001.
- - Details of a New US Distributor.
Links to Mystic Station Designs, who can supply BITS products to your US FLGS.
- - Details of a New Finnish Distributor.
BITS is happy to have our first distributor beyond the UK and USA -
Fantasiapelit Tudeer OY, based in Helsinki, Finland.
Watch out for more updates soon...
Dom (BITS Webmaster)
- ---- webmaster@bits.org.uk ----
BITS, CORE and the associated logos are trademarks of BITS UK Limited.
Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises. Used
under permission of license.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 16:57:29
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Boing
At 06:09 PM 2/11/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>Actually, perhaps we should really avoid confusion and call all of
>the Daves 'Bruce'?
The Three Bruces, Defenders of Unix Systems extraordinare, would probably
take exception.
Yes, Bay Area fandom gets odd.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:01:28
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
At 12:55 PM 2/11/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>That Doug attempts to disguise his relation to professional humorist
>Dave Barry by cleverly varying the spelling the last name he writes
>under is no reason to exempt him from disqualification. He should be
>handicapped by the same limp amateur humor I manage to provide (g).
Actually, I need no more help having grown up with my brother Craig, and
our late father, teaching me that bad jokes and tall tales are the
*essence* of ciovilized dining. That, and detailed, intense, dissections
of Von Manstein's actions against Zhukov, or whatever else the topic of the
day was.
My mother and sister, they would just roll their eyes.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:04:38
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
At 11:05 AM 2/11/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>But, you'll notice, Patton never charged through any minefields.
>He just slapped soldiers who decided not to.
The soldier that Patton slapped wasn't shaken from minefields.. he'd been
under near constant artillery attack for two and a half weeks, and when
Patton slugged him, was under consideration for his second Silver Star for
valor.
They taught us this in PLDC (Primary Leadership Development Course). Never
jump to conclusions.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 17:07:46
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
At 12:07 PM 2/11/2001 PST, you wrote:
>I have this picture of a *very* humorless Imperial inspector picking a
>few officers and enlisted at random, blind folding them, and telling
>them to walk across an area they've "cleared". White canes available on
>request...
Leonard! You never told me you were an instructor at the US Army Infantry
School!
That's *exactly* what we did after clearing a field. Got on line and
walked through it. We set off seven training mines. That was a lesson
that stuck with us.
Oh, and clearing mines has to be one of the nastiest, slowest, most
nerve-wracking things an infantryman is called upon to do.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 02:06:27 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Maps
At 20:21 -0500 11/2/01, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>But none that my macintosh will recognize.
>:(
I should have (MacOS) AI 7 format or EPS subsector (possibly) and
sector (definitely) maps that Andy Akins sent me. Do you want me to
mail you it?
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:15:26 -0500
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: Was: RE:Anti-RPG but has become much more malignant...
</rant>
Could we please just drop this topic/thread on religion? I am tired of
having to use my page-down key through so much of the journal. It's deeply
personal for most of us, and I for one am becoming really offended by a lot
of the posts on all sides. The TML really isn't an appropriate forum, and
those who have a need to flex their mental muscle on the list even when they
are wrong are never going to agree on anything or change anyone's mind, so
this topic really has been a waste of bandwidth, in my opinion. Can we get
back to Traveller, please?!?
<rant>
Sorry, but I needed to vent...
Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:20:31 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics
On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:11:18 PST, shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard
Erickson) wrote:
<snip>
>> Why wouldn't the person with that commodities information use it
>> themself and seize the profits rather than sell the information at a
>> lower price. Of course, they may be more comfortable being an
>> information broker rather than running the risks of a free trader's
>> life.
>
>Right. It's much *safer* to sell to and buy from the traders. The
>profits are lower, but the risks are *much* lower.
>
>And as I noted, I can see lists of "items wanted" and "items available"
>being distributed to surrounding systems. Say out to 3 or 4 jumps?
>
>It'd be relatively cheap, and the risk is all on the part of the folks
>*responding* to the listing.
Of course, though there would appear to be a small number of these
sort of ads represented in canonical adventures or adventure seeds,
they do appear to be more the exception than the rule. These ads
would need to be uncommon or else the speculative cargo rules of CT
would not have existed.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:22:45 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Rob Davenports 'Boring' thoughts (was Science Fiction)
>>[2] Some of the discussions of slugthrower in recent days (I'm
>>perpetually catching up on this list) have been enlightening and give
>>me new regard for the venerable slugthrower, which is great.
>
>If you use GURPS at all, check out UT2. Electrothermal slug throwers!
If you use GURPS at all check out Smartguns. At GTL14 a little advance for
GT, but definitely an improvement over the conventional slug thrower. Also
don't forget that Traveller firearms can shoot APS (Armor piercing), HEAT
(High Explosive Shaped Charge) and even Tranq rounds. Much more flexible
than a Laser.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:15:45 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG (LONG)
Dear Mark -
You asked:
> Thanks for copying me on your note. You appear to have presented your
case
>quite well; I hope it will have a significant impact on your audience. I
>also thank you for mentioning some of my work to them, which perhaps may
also
>be helpful to them.
The thread roughly started out as "Perscution of RPGs" but changed to
"Creation vs Evolution" before it died down - rather quickly this time.
The topic of religion is one of the "FWOTAs" ("Flame Wars Of The
Apocalypse" ;-) that appears on the Traveller Mailing List from time to
time. However, one thing that distinguishes the TML, I believe, is that
discussions of this sort are extremely polite in comparison to places such
as Usenet and other general discussion groups. Perhaps part of this is
because we are all required to subscribe, and thus really want to be there
to discuss Traveller, not just stir the pot (there's also the mild threat
of being unsubbed by the list admin ;-). I also think that people on this
list respect each other more than any other I've been on, so when a few
people say "Please take this off the list", people respond positively.
> I'm trying to work out whether you're one of the "David's" I know from
>somewhere, but I haven't been able to place you yet. Have we corresponded
>before, or are you on one of the lists or forums in which I participate?
It
>doesn't matter; I just like to connect the dots when there are
connections.
I think I have exchanged some emails with you before a few years ago.
Probably on a similar topic!
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:55:21 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
>My favorite story (quite possibly true, but could just be an Urban Myth) is
>that of the two poor policemen out zapping innocent motorists who suddenly
>found their nice speed camera had died on them. When they demanded that
the
>Top Neddy at the local RAF base should buy them a new one, they were a
>little put out to be told that they should be grateful they weren't
>currently collecting little pieces of each other from the local hills -
>pointing radar devices at fighter-bombers on a live-fire exercise is *not*
a
>good idea... especially when they are carrying anti-radar weaponry :-)
>Jeff.
>
True Story: I was assigned as a military police officer at a base that must
remain nameless somewhere in the U.S. Two state policemen attempted to set
up a speed trap on an interstate next to the outside double fence of a
restricted ordnance station. Normally this wouldn't have been a problem.
(That's why there's a double fence with a road between fences. The inside
fence marks an exclusion zone. The road is a patrol road.) That day they
were moving special ordnance out of the facility.
Two nice Marine Guards (in their field uniforms, with flack jackets and
M16's) drove up behind the State Troopers and asked them to move along. One
of the troopers stepped out of his vehicle and told the Marines to go to
hell and threatened to arrest them. He made the mistake of looking like he
was going to pull his side arm.
Luckily the Marine was a fairly experienced corporal, and not a nervous
green lance corporal. He did not shoot the officer. He did point his weapon
at the officer and order him to stand down. Luckily the Corporal of The
Guard knew that we liaisoned with local law enforcement so he called our
watch captain who asked us to take a ride to the location while the CDO
called the State Police.
The big bad trooper looked like he was going to shit bricks. His partner had
the presence of mind to stay in the vehicle and call his watch captain
rather than attempting to intervene.
After about 15 minutes the Troopies got a call on their radio that basically
told them to move along and set up their speed trap somewhere else. As far
as I know no action was ever taken against either of the Marines.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:59:27 -0800
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
>
> >But, you'll notice, Patton never charged through any minefields.
> >He just slapped soldiers who decided not to.
>
> The soldier that Patton slapped wasn't shaken from minefields.. he'd been
> under near constant artillery attack for two and a half weeks, and when
> Patton slugged him, was under consideration for his second Silver Star for
> valor.
>
> They taught us this in PLDC (Primary Leadership Development Course).
Never
> jump to conclusions.
> --
>
> Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
> http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
>
I was using an an example that wasn't really related. This should, but
probably won't, teach me to be more exact. Thanks for the _gentle_
correction.
The point I was trying to make was that its easy to say "charge through the
mine field" when you aren't going to be doing the charging.
I had read that Patton 'slapped' the soldier. Was it a 'slug', as in punch?
Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor
Next year, at Burning Man!
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:56:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: One for the programmers
In mail you write:
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Nope. I was quoting as best I can from an article on the
>> subject. It's been 10-20 years, but I know I've got the details I
>> gave correct. Keep in mind that if you *were* able to wait for the
>> craft to go out to infinity, that burn would have a magnitude of
>> *zero*.
>
> Yeah, I made a math error :( I was ignoring the second burn anyway;
> it's the third one that tripped me up.
>
> The actual critical ratio isn't 15 though, but closer to 12. Unless
> I've made another math error, but this time I used two different
> derivations and got the same answer so I'm a bit more confident :)
12, 15, what's the difference? :-)
It's still not likely to get much use on interplanetary flights, but
does get used for switching between orbits *around* a planet.
Also, unlike a Hohman orbit, it's not suitable for "free transit"
cargo, because it needs that second burn way out in the middle of
nowhere.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 18:58:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary Maps
In mail you write:
> I ended up building my own hex map in Illustrator since I wanted a
> transparent overlay, and also prefer vector graphics since they resize
> better.
Which Vector formats do you have it in? Can you produce it in HPGL
(I've got a CAD program that will *import* HPGL!)
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:23:53 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
On 9 Feb 2001, at 12:06, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> This is what comes of the tendency to equate all religions with
> Christianity (which does, no matter how much some Christians don't like to
> hear this, have a tendency to frown on asking too many questions, esp. of God
> himself. Some variants of the Christian God make marine drill sergeants look
> question-friendly.)
Some do, but not all. I'm an Anglican (can't get much more mainstream),
yet as part of my personal faith I reject the Trinity, the divinity of the earthly
Jesus and a whole host of other fairly biggies (Many fundamentalists would
have me tied to a burning stick faster than you could say hectic). My
parish has no problems with me worshipping and discussing faith. In fact,
I've had a number of very enjoyable discussions on this with my Vicar and
a number of senior clergy.
ObTrav? Well you'll just have to wait for Prometheus Rising :*>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:39:45 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Islands - Bad example?
...
>Incompetence in the Imperium's higher levels isn't anything new. Can you
>say Sector Admiral Frederick Santanocheev?
Revisionist! The man was a hero, betrayed by back-stabbing
opportunists who wanted his job!
("his followers ... worship him like a god")
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:47:22 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Here is an Adventure hook for the players...
Some well known or perhaps unknown pharmaceutical company discovers a form
of bacteria existing on some backwater planet. The bacteriologist sent the
bacteria in for sample lab work and it was discovered by accident (a
shipment of munition were sent via that same ship) that these particular
baterium enjoy working on nitrate based chemicals. Presto - a new method
for controlling land mines. Unfortunately, the man attempted to sell his
wonder product to the wrong people and he was found dead, his lab trashed,
etc. The players discover that his note book was accidentally mis-shipped
and they have come into possession of his journal. More importantly, they
have also come into possession of that same sample of bacteria. Now some
unnamed military complex is trying to forget that this bacteria was ever
found... (until someone tries to make a sale on the journal etc...)
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 23:31:21 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
>
> Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:31:41 -0000
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
>
> From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
> Thanks Thom!. That makes complete sense. I didn't have the DGP maps
> at hand (there around here somewhere...). It also helps explain Hans
> Rancke's refugee colonized worlds in pre-Imperial Deneb. They would have
> had the RoM's jump-3 technology to get there.
> How far into Deneb does the Spinward Main reach? Is there a Deneb Main
> too? In other words, how many 2 or 3 parsec gaps are there between that Main
> and the one near Vland?
>
Just so we are all looking at the same page. Goto
http://maps.grandsurvey.com and download the Imperial trade map built by
Anthony Jackson. It contains all of the canon sectors of the Imperium
and a few others besides.
The Spinward main does not reach into Deneb at all. By my count, there
are at least 10 2 parsec gaps to be covered between the Vilani main and
the Spinward Main.
> "And the initial Vilani expansion was done using only jump-1 ships. And
> by the time the Jump-2 ship came about, the Vilani retained complete
> control of the technology. But by that time they already had their
> empire, and used the technology to control the places they could get to.
> Rarely to expand to new areas."
>
> Wasn't the jump-2 drive what enabled them to launch the Consolidation
> Wars, and win them, in the first place? So they had it prior to the
> official Ziru Sirka. Not, that it makes any difference. Their efforts with
> jump-2 tech would have been building the empire in already settled areas and
> not wasting resources to cross a few rifts to reach a few piddling clusters.
>
Checking my canon reference, the GT book, the vilani discovered the
Jump-2 drive in 909 BC, and started the Consolidation wars in 880 BC, a
mere 29 years later. The consolidation wars lasted until 476 when the
Ziru Srika was declared, a term of 1356 years. By the time the
Consolidation wars were over, the Vilani has essentially stopped
expanding and conquered all known races. While they may have explored
out to spinward, if the Corridor and Provence sectors were essentially
empty of any minor human or alien races, there would have been little
attraction to the area. In fact, during the war there would have been an
attraction to leaving the area uninhabited. It allows the Vilani to
reduce the number of fronts on which they are fighting the war.
> "... maintain numerous deep space stations..."
>
> I've been very poor at making myself clear. I'm not talking about some
> Deep Space 9 monstrosity built in iinterstellar space. I'm suggesting a
> couple kilotons of "ice-teroid" dropped of with a radio beacon and maybe an
> automatic fuel cracking station embedded in it. No space station, no
> habitats, no shops and bars. Just a few KdTons of water ice lifted there
> every few years by a colonial navy's battlerider tender in an effort to
> entice more free trader and subsidized merchant traffic.
>
This still needs to be maintained. And I'd suggest the technologically
conservative Vilani would refuse to create an automated system for this
purpose. There would need to be a manned presence on this station.
I've also done some calculations for a jump drive using the known canon
about the system and using Tidal Accelerations. The smallest planetoid
you can safely target with a Jump 1 drive is about 50km in diameter. Any
smaller and the variability of the jump drive and the ship's real space
vector may cause the ship to smash into the object before the crew has a
chance to react. So the Deep Space station must be more than a few
thousand dtons of Ice and a radio beacon. A large comet would fill the
bill, but you need to find one you can't build one.
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:56:51 -0800
From: "J-Man" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
Thats interesting, or should I say TYPICAL, that most christians believe
that way. It says in the bible where God says TO QUESTION HIM. My take on
this is that God doesn't want mindless zombies who blindly walk off cliffs
when told to, per se. I suppose my brand of christianity wouldn't fit in
with most others as I favor mutual respect for others' beliefs (as long as
they do not harm others), Freedom of Choice, et al. I also firmly believe
in 'karma' whatever it happens to be called. If you do evil to others, it
will come back to you. I've seen this happen too many times for it to be
just coincidence. So these pios and fundamentalist christians that go
around hurting others with their brand of 'hate crime' (ie, putting others
down for *thier* differing beliefs, etc, etc ad adsurbum), will ultimately
pay a price for the pain they unleash upon others. I just wish we lived in
a world where respect was mutual and people took responisibility for their
own actions.
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Andrew
Moffatt-Vallance
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 19:24
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
On 9 Feb 2001, at 12:06, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> This is what comes of the tendency to equate all religions with
> Christianity (which does, no matter how much some Christians don't like to
> hear this, have a tendency to frown on asking too many questions, esp. of
God
> himself. Some variants of the Christian God make marine drill sergeants
look
> question-friendly.)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:29:37 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>
> >????? Maybe they should try reading Job.
>
> This is an example of the benevolence of the Christian God toward those
who
> ask questions?
Job was neither a Christian nor a Jew, and it is therefore applicable to
everyone. And yes, it is a wonderful example of many things, especially
benevolence. In that account, God answered more questions than He was asked
:-)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:32:51 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Landgrab Question
No one has claimed any of these. Which would you like?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<><~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Colin Michael, ct@downport.com
www.Downport.com - "Traveller Web Portal"
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
> I don't have the ability to look at the official website right now, and
was
> wondering whether anyone had claimed any of the following worlds:
>
> Forboldn (Regina/SM 0208-E893614-4)
> Knorbes (Regina/SM 0207-E888787-2)
> Whanga (Regina/SM 206-E676126-7)
>
> If no-one has taken these, I would really like to stake a claim on one or
> more. With 12 hours of night shift tonight, I'm gonna need something to
> do...
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:57:48 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Islands subsectors
...
> IMHO, the return of an interstellar society among the worlds of the
>Long Night kicked off a wide epidemic of the "itchy foot syndrome" and the
>Imperium had only one frontier to abosrb this restlessness. Anyone who
>wanted to chuck it all in and start all over had to go behind the "Claw",
>everywhere else was already settled to one degree or another.
But there are frontiers closer by, cheaper to reach, and more
likely to be economically rewarding - all those low-pop worlds
and every out-system of non Hi-pop mainworlds.
Even low passage from Core to Corridor is a big chunk of capital.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:56:24 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....
Don't have time to check my books, and need to know this.
Isn't the Flaming Eye the Vilani equivalent of the Solomani Skulls &
Crossbones? I've got a pic of the Eye on a Vargr ship, but I coulda' sworn
I'd read that it was a Vilani symbol. Maybe the Vargr ship was f#@%ing with
the Vilani? ;)
Thanks!!!!
Jesse
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:33:03 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
Thom Jones-Low wrote:
> The smallest planetoid you can safely target with a Jump 1 drive is
> about 50km in diameter. Any smaller and the variability of the jump
> drive and the ship's real space vector may cause the ship to smash
> into the object before the crew has a chance to react.
It would be possible for the ship to match velocity with the fuel
depot before jumping, at least to within a few hundred m/s or so. For
a 200m diameter or so snowball (or station), the jump limit is 20 km
so they can't possibly be any closer than that when they emerge. At
(say) 300 m/s, they've got over a minute to decelerate or avoid --
within the capability of any ship with 0.1G thrusters or better (20
seconds to realise there's a problem, 20 seconds to change
orientation, 20 seconds of thrust). And that's assuming a bad pilot.
It's also assuming the 1-in-a-trillion chance of actually emerging
close to the jump limit on a collision vector. The chances are much
greater of having a non-intersecting vector, as well as emerging much
further away. Is 1-in-a-trillion plus the ability to change course
safe enough?
In fact, I don't think it would even be worth the bother of matching
pre-jump velocity that closely. Even if you're going 100 km/s
relative to the station, your chance of emerging in a potentially
fatal position is only on the order of 1 in a billion.
A station with 0.03 km^2 cross-section is a very small target in a
jump uncertainty region with cross-section at least 80 000 000 km^2.
So no, I don't think such considerations will make the slightest bit
of difference.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:36:56 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Islands - Bad example?
...
> Most of the New Island powers skirmished alot, but engaged in no real
>fleet actions. They were too nervous about Esperanza, the 800lb gorilla.
>Who ever put that world in the game, never PLAYTESTED the damn thing.
FWIW, it's not clear that they can do much more than neutralize
their neighbours - even with a 10:1 advantage (TCS; "only" 6:1 in
RSB) there's some serious limits to their efficiency under HG2.
Armour J opponents is bad enough, but they not only don't have
meson weapons themselves but are down a TL on computers!
And a huge portion of their budget has to go into tankers if
they want to get anything done :)
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3642
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3643
Date: | 2/11/01 10:23:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, February 12 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3643
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....
Re: Boing
Re: Vilani Ship Names?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
RE: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....
Re: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....
Landgrab! Regina/ Forboldn, Knorbes, and Whanga
RE: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....
Re: Vilani Ship Names?
Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
Re: Vilani Ship Names?
Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
re: Ignoring Canon and other thoughts
Re: Islands clusters
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:40:25 -0800
From: "Terry Kuchta" <tkuchta@Desertlinc.com>
Subject: Re: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....
From: "Jesse DeGraff"
> Isn't the Flaming Eye the Vilani equivalent of the Solomani Skulls &
> Crossbones? I've got a pic of the Eye on a Vargr ship, but I coulda'
sworn
> I'd read that it was a Vilani symbol. Maybe the Vargr ship was f#@%ing
with
> the Vilani? ;)
Yes. It was mentioned in the DGP campaign book aptly titled "The Flaming
Eye". IIRC correctly, the plot line had some Vargr working wth/for some
Vilani.
"After all, we are a nation in all but name."
- -- Robert Foxx, CAO Foxx Industries, 2204, upon the decision to create the
Independent Military Services (IMS) unit.
Visit the 2300AD site of Foxx Industries at:
http://www.desertlinc.net/~tkuchta/index.htm
Terry Kuchta
tkuchta@desertlinc.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:13:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Boing
In mail you write:
> At 06:09 PM 2/11/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>
>>Actually, perhaps we should really avoid confusion and call all of
>>the Daves 'Bruce'?
>
> The Three Bruces, Defenders of Unix Systems extraordinare, would probably
> take exception.
>
> Yes, Bay Area fandom gets odd.
What do you mean "Bay Area"? *Fandom* (in general) gets odd.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:25:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Vilani Ship Names?
In mail you write:
>>Well, a lot of folks, especially English speakers, but also a lot of
>>Europeans don't seem to realize that there are at least *three* ways >of
> writing a language:
>>
>>alphabetic These are characterized by (generally) one character
>> representing one phoneme. English is pretty bad at
>> this, most other alphabetic systems are a lot better.
>>
>>ideographic One character per word/concept. Chinese, hierogylphics
> (mostly), etc.
>
>
> Not exactly. Chinese characters, which are used in all Chinese dialects, as
> well as in Japanese and sometimes in Korean, are often made up of other
> characters. The "radicals" sometimes express concepts and sometimes
> express that this character sounds similar to another word. For instance
> the character for "horse" appears in Chinese words for "mother" and
> "scolding" because they are all the syllable "ma" in Mandarin, just spoken
> in different tones.
>
> (I hate the Chinese language. It drives me bugfuck. Kenji and I have
> expressed our frustrations with it on a number of occasions. He knows more
> of it than I ever will, most likely. I plan to learn just enough of it to
> be able to read Japanese classics and not be totally confused by Chinese
> medicine and menus.)
Well, Egyptian Hierogyplhics are as much (if not *more* so) a mix of
characters for words, syllables and phonemes.
>>syllabaric(?) The languages uses a syllabary. Each character
>> represents a *syllable* in a word. As near as I can
>> tell, both hirigana and katakana fit this.
>
> Hiragana and katakana are syllabaries, but kanji are not, and you can't even
> read most street signs, let alone the newspaper, without knowing them.
> About 2000 of them are needed for full adult literacy, and I'm still working
> on that.
I didn't mention the kanji on purpose. First, because I couldn't recall
the name, and second because I knew they were closer to ideographic.
>>A referee could have some fun with this. How long will it take the
>>players to realize that the name they got contains extra sounds >because
> they got it as it is (forced) to be represented in language >A, but it's
> actually a name from language B, which won't sound at all >the same. :-)
>
>
> True. When written in Japanese my name looks like this in romaji:
>
> Morugan (katakana) Kiri (kanji) Arajia (katakana, if I even bother
> including this part).
Yeah. So to use you as an example, just how long do you think it'd take
the PCs to figure out that the "Morugan" they were warned about is the
"Morgan" one of them is dating? <eg>
> And "baikingu" isn't exercise with a bicycle, it's a breakfast smorgasbord--
> "baikingu" means "Viking" which for some reason got to be the word for
> "smorgasbord" in Japanese.
Oddly enough, the first word to pop into my mind upon seeing "baikingu"
*was* "viking"! Then again, my SCA persona *is* a viking. :-)
> I do, however, consider the Japanese term "sexfriend" to be nicer-sounding
> than "fuckbuddy" and really wish it would catch on in English.
Well, since I wouldn't use "fuckbuddy" on a *bet* and probably wouldn't
want to have someone who did as a "sexfriend", I'll cheerfully do my
part to introduce it!
> And "furin" which sounds like "fling" really does mean affair-- but it's a
> native Japanese word that just happens to sound like what it actually means
> in English.
> Confused yet?
What do you mean "yet"? I was confused to start with. :-)
> BTW, in some dialects, that nasty Japanese consonant that is not quite an
> "L" and not quite an "R" can sound like a "D". When I speak quickly, I have
> to be careful lest Americans think that my name is either Carrie or Kitty.
> I find being called "Carrie" especially odious.
Well, given your position on the keyboard kills list, how do you feel
about "Killi"? :-)
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:16:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
In mail you write:
> At 12:07 PM 2/11/2001 PST, you wrote:
>
>>I have this picture of a *very* humorless Imperial inspector picking a
>>few officers and enlisted at random, blind folding them, and telling
>>them to walk across an area they've "cleared". White canes available on
>>request...
>
> Leonard! You never told me you were an instructor at the US Army Infantry
> School!
Nope. I just have an exceedingly *twisted* mind.
> That's *exactly* what we did after clearing a field. Got on line and
> walked through it. We set off seven training mines. That was a lesson
> that stuck with us.
Just as my little idea will "encourage" folks to be *very* anal about
clearing the minefields they emplaced.
BTW, just out of curiosity, what does a training mine do when you set
it off?
> Oh, and clearing mines has to be one of the nastiest, slowest, most
> nerve-wracking things an infantryman is called upon to do.
There are times when I regret having such a good imagination... <shudder>
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:19:16 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
In mail you write:
> True Story: I was assigned as a military police officer at a base that must
> remain nameless somewhere in the U.S. Two state policemen attempted to set
> up a speed trap on an interstate next to the outside double fence of a
> restricted ordnance station. Normally this wouldn't have been a problem.
> (That's why there's a double fence with a road between fences. The inside
> fence marks an exclusion zone. The road is a patrol road.) That day they
> were moving special ordnance out of the facility.
Translation: "special ordnance" = nukes. At least that's what it usually means.
Though I suppose it *could* have been merely chemical or biological.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:34:52 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....
Yes what? Yes it's Vilani? Or yes the Vargr were using because it was
theirs?
Thx!!!
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Terry Kuchta
> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 8:40 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....
>
>
> From: "Jesse DeGraff"
>
> > Isn't the Flaming Eye the Vilani equivalent of the Solomani Skulls &
> > Crossbones? I've got a pic of the Eye on a Vargr ship, but I coulda'
> sworn
> > I'd read that it was a Vilani symbol. Maybe the Vargr ship was f#@%ing
> with
> > the Vilani? ;)
>
> Yes. It was mentioned in the DGP campaign book aptly titled "The Flaming
> Eye". IIRC correctly, the plot line had some Vargr working wth/for some
> Vilani.
>
>
>
> "After all, we are a nation in all but name."
> -- Robert Foxx, CAO Foxx Industries, 2204, upon the decision to create the
> Independent Military Services (IMS) unit.
>
> Visit the 2300AD site of Foxx Industries at:
> http://www.desertlinc.net/~tkuchta/index.htm
>
> Terry Kuchta
> tkuchta@desertlinc.com
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:55:05 -0800
From: "Terry Kuchta" <tkuchta@Desertlinc.com>
Subject: Re: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....
From: "Jesse DeGraff"
> Yes what? Yes it's Vilani? Or yes the Vargr were using because it was
> theirs?
From the back of the DGP Book "The Flaming Eye", under the symbol...
"The Flaming Eye is the age-old Vilani symbol for piracy -- similar to the
Solomani skull and crossbones. Vargr corsairs have started using the feared
Vilani symbol and are striking terror in the population of entire worlds
along the Vilani border with the Vargr Extents. What are the Vargr up to,
and why have they suddenly became so clever and organized in their attacks
on the Vilani? Find the answers to these questions and more in the pages of
this campaign sourcebook."
"After all, we are a nation in all but name."
- -- Robert Foxx, CAO Foxx Industries, 2204, upon the decision to create the
Independent Military Services (IMS) unit.
Visit the 2300AD site of Foxx Industries at:
http://www.desertlinc.net/~tkuchta/index.htm
Terry Kuchta
tkuchta@desertlinc.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 23:59:26 -0500
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: Landgrab! Regina/ Forboldn, Knorbes, and Whanga
Actually, I'd like to lay claim to all three worlds, if nobody minds. I'll
have the first draft of the webpage for them posted within the next 2 weeks.
Jeff
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:32:51 -0500
>From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
>Subject: Re: Landgrab Question
>
>No one has claimed any of these. Which would you like?
>
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<><~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>Colin Michael, ct@downport.com
>www.Downport.com - "Traveller Web Portal"
>> Forboldn (Regina/SM 0208-E893614-4)
>> Knorbes (Regina/SM 0207-E888787-2)
>> Whanga (Regina/SM 206-E676126-7)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:49:06 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....
LOL!!!! So it was yes to both!! Thanks for the clarification Terry, you've
been a great help!
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Terry Kuchta
> Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 8:55 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....
>
>
> From: "Jesse DeGraff"
> > Yes what? Yes it's Vilani? Or yes the Vargr were using because it was
> > theirs?
>
> From the back of the DGP Book "The Flaming Eye", under the symbol...
>
> "The Flaming Eye is the age-old Vilani symbol for piracy -- similar to the
> Solomani skull and crossbones. Vargr corsairs have started using
> the feared
> Vilani symbol and are striking terror in the population of entire worlds
> along the Vilani border with the Vargr Extents. What are the Vargr up to,
> and why have they suddenly became so clever and organized in their attacks
> on the Vilani? Find the answers to these questions and more in
> the pages of
> this campaign sourcebook."
>
>
>
> "After all, we are a nation in all but name."
> -- Robert Foxx, CAO Foxx Industries, 2204, upon the decision to create the
> Independent Military Services (IMS) unit.
>
> Visit the 2300AD site of Foxx Industries at:
> http://www.desertlinc.net/~tkuchta/index.htm
>
> Terry Kuchta
> tkuchta@desertlinc.com
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 21:17:03 -0800
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani Ship Names?
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
>In mail you write:
>
>> Not exactly. Chinese characters, which are used in all Chinese dialects,
as well as in Japanese and sometimes in Korean, are often made up of other
characters. The "radicals" sometimes express concepts and sometimes
express that this character sounds similar to another word. For instance
the character for "horse" appears in Chinese words for "mother" and
"scolding" because they are all the syllable "ma" in Mandarin, just spoken
in different tones.
>>
>
>Well, Egyptian Hierogyplhics are as much (if not *more* so) a mix of
characters for words, syllables and phonemes.
>
Perhaps so-- but I know almost nothing about them.
>>>syllabaric(?) The languages uses a syllabary. Each character
>>> represents a *syllable* in a word. As near as I can
>>> tell, both hirigana and katakana fit this.
>>
>> Hiragana and katakana are syllabaries, but kanji are not, and you can't
even read most street signs, let alone the newspaper, without knowing them.
About 2000 of them are needed for full adult literacy, and I'm still working
on that.
>>
>I didn't mention the kanji on purpose. First, because I couldn't recall
>the name, and second because I knew they were closer to >ideographic.
Yes, I understand-- but I thought it important to mention that they are
necessary for full functional literacy in Japanese.
>> Morugan (katakana) Kiri (kanji) Arajia (katakana, if I even bother
>> including this part).
>
>Yeah. So to use you as an example, just how long do you think it'd take the
PCs to figure out that the "Morugan" they were warned about is the "Morgan"
one of them is dating? <eg>
>
Given the way most Japanese slur the -u syllables, that one's not so hard.
However, my cat's name is so hard to say in Japanese that my best friend has
nicknamed her "Hanako".
My cat's real name, which is taken from a language used in my universe, is
"Tissriel". In nihongo, this becomes:
"Chi'shirieru"
which isn't even close to sounding like a real word. It is a woman's name
in Talassani.
So, IMTU, if you were Terran free traders on the D'Aschaksi side of the
Fringe, and you were warned by members of the Shiratori Self-Defense Force
about a dangerous Talassani spy called Chi'shirieru, and one of your number
was dating a Talassani woman called Tissriel, but knew nothing about the
Japanese language, you would probably have no idea that they were the same
person.
>> And "baikingu" isn't exercise with a bicycle, it's a breakfast
smorgasbord-- "baikingu" means "Viking" which for some reason got to be the
word for "smorgasbord" in Japanese.
>>
>Oddly enough, the first word to pop into my mind upon seeing "baikingu"
*was* "viking"! Then again, my SCA persona *is* a viking. :-)
>
Far and away, mine was a French "cavalier".
>> I do, however, consider the Japanese term "sexfriend" to be
nicer-sounding than "fuckbuddy" and really wish it would catch on in
English.
>>
>Well, since I wouldn't use "fuckbuddy" on a *bet* and probably wouldn't
want to have someone who did as a "sexfriend", I'll cheerfully do my part to
introduce it!
>
Thanks! In San Francisco there are a lot of people who use that word,
although *I'm* much more likely to sleep with someone who would use
"sexfriend" instead...
>> BTW, in some dialects, that nasty Japanese consonant that is not quite an
"L" and not quite an "R" can sound like a "D". When I speak quickly, I have
to be careful lest Americans think that my name is either Carrie or Kitty. I
find being called "Carrie" especially odious.
>>
>Well, given your position on the keyboard kills list, how do you feel
>about "Killi"? :-)
>
Annoying, but less so than a name which will forever bring images to my mind
of Sissy Spacek in a bloody prom dress.
Actually one of my friends loves to write "l" instead of "r" and calls me
"Kili" much more than I'd like. He signs himself "Hiloyuki". However, the
doubled consonant in Japanese would actually involve adding a glottal stop.
Kiri ^_^
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 23:16:01 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
On 02/11/01 at 03:44 PM, hal@buffnet.net said:
> Does anyone seriously believe, especially after the Fourth
>Edition of Traveller came out with the Survey book, that the
>Imperium would sanction activities that amount to theft of
>commercial property without compensation?
What does First Survey have to do with that? Other than showing the
Imperium (as represented by Imperium Games) was cocked up, that is.
<g>
>Here is what I suspect
>would happen if theft of ships were permitted under the Trade Wars
>Act...
Hal, it's not theft, it's commerce raiding. A Trade War is a
war...war with formal rules and regulations...but *real* war
none-the-less. The rules permit attacking and capturing ships of
the opposing side, that's all.
>1) ship insurance would skyrocket as more ships are targetted
>either by seemingly terrorist activities or outright thefts
Only things that are written into the contract are covered by
insurance. I doubt acts of war (including Trade Ware) would be.
>2) banks would scream bloody murder as they took losses of such
>magnitude. The minimal deposit would change from 20% down payment
>to something more like 50% plus. In the meantime, they would
>likely complain to the authorities and demand that something be
>done about it.
The banks shrug and confiscate assets the corporations have pledged
as security, and if the corporation can't cover it's outstanding
mortgages (regardless of who has current possession of the ships)
then expect foreclosure, *forcible* foreclosure and repossession of
assets.
BTW, I'd guess that any megacorporation would have it's own
insurance and banking branches. Megacorps would self-insure,
right?
>3) any ship's captain who desires to get out from under his bank
>mortgage, can arrange to have someone else start up a rival
>corporation, and start a trade war <grin>. Gee, isn't it a
>co-incidence that I can steal your ship, which is the same make and
>model as mine - while you steal my ship - and the authorities can't
>touch us under the current Trade wars act? <snicker>
You and your friend would still be responsible for making your
payments. I also rather expect the banks in question would
forcible repossess their assets, not being polite about it either.
The very idea that you and your friend were engaged in a Trade War
would probably keep people in stitches from the time of your capture
to the time of your execution. What you want to bet that's called
"fraud" even in the 53rd century? <g>
IAC, Trade Wars are between megacorporations, not Free Traders. In
the Traveller universe megacorporations are pretty close to being
governments in an of themselves, anyway, so why shouldn't war be one
of their perqs? I suspect that Trade Wars are sanctioned, licensed,
and regulated, by the Imperium. If someone decides to start one on
their own, without sanction or license, it *is* banditry.
That's my take on Trade Wars anyway.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 23:20:49 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
On 02/11/01 at 04:33 PM, Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com> said:
>> 1) ship insurance would skyrocket as more ships are targetted either by
>> seemingly terrorist activities or outright thefts
>Why would any insurance company insure a ship that was likely to be
>targetted for attack?
Well, actually, Bloo they will...at an appropriate rate, and with appropriate clauses. Heck, insurance companies will insure most anything if their numbers say they'll take more in than they'll pay out. That's not a knock, that's just business. <g>
OTOH, if someone had a ship likely to be attacked, I doubt the ship's owner would be able to *afford* the insurance.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 23:45:25 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
> Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:19:52
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
> Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
>
> At 05:09 PM 2/10/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>
> >Well, all TML Keyboard Kill aces are _authorized_ to wear flight jackets
> >and silk scarves. Unfortunately, they are not issue items, and
> >therefore aces must purchase their own garments and accoutrements.
>
> And are required to do so within 180 days of confirmation of ace status.
> Requests for exemtion may be made, in writing, to:
>
> TML Ace Advisory Panel
> #7, Up the Back Stairs
> Lemon Curry, Regina.
>
> Ask for "Leon."
Chalk up another one Doug.
This one is the full 16 pointer as food particles
were in fact nassaly passed.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 07:49:22 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Vilani Ship Names?
On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> (I hate the Chinese language. It drives me bugfuck. Kenji and I have
> expressed our frustrations with it on a number of occasions. He knows more
> of it than I ever will, most likely. I plan to learn just enough of it to
> be able to read Japanese classics and not be totally confused by Chinese
> medicine and menus.)
I hate Chinese language, too, but different reasons. It makes Japanese
difficult to learn. B-)
I studied Japanese for about a year, and the most annoying thing was when
I realised that there are quite a lot of homonyms in Japanese - because
they are Chinese loanwords, but the Japanese doesn't use tone as Chinese
languages.
One consequence of this is of course the ambiguity in names' appearance in
writing.
My kanji vocabulary was something like 50-100 kanji, but I have forgotten
almost everything. Most I remember are the kanji I see somewhat
regularily, like the different compass directions and others which are on
majiang tiles. B-)
A friend of mine, who studies Japanese in the Helsinki University once
said that Japanese people who live abroad forget writing of Japanese very
quickly. B-/
Japanese is one of the most interesting languages. I wish I had more time
for learning it. (Luckily, I know languages of two different
families... Japanese would be the third. Next one I am going to learn is
likely to be Italian, for my career plans involve being in Italy for some
portion of my time. [Planck satellite has its main base there during
the flight. B-)])
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:02:12 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
On Sun, 11 Feb 2001, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> Actually, I need no more help having grown up with my brother Craig, and
> our late father, teaching me that bad jokes and tall tales are the
> *essence* of ciovilized dining. That, and detailed, intense, dissections
> of Von Manstein's actions against Zhukov, or whatever else the topic of the
> day was.
I must someday attend your dinners. I have learned the same thing,
although only from my father. Of course, we taught the same thing to my
little brother. B-)
We could compare Finnish and Berryan civilized dinners.
> My mother and sister, they would just roll their eyes.
This seems an almost universal reaction of people of the female persuasion
to bad jokes. Good thing my girlfriend is not one of them. B-)
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:08:20 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Ignoring Canon and other thoughts
>From: hal@buffnet.net
>Subject: Ignoring Canon and other thoughts
...
><grin>. Perhaps, the laws of economic reality are such that Jump-1 tramp
>freighters really are the old rusting hulks of ships that have seen better
>days. This means then that there really shouldn't be any *new* ships being
>built that are just Jump-1 capable! There are those who say that Deep
...
>that a Jump 1 slower moving ship can charge a lesser fee such that his two
>jump-1's will be marginally cheaper than a Jump-2's single jump fee. Will
As other have said, J-1 ships will still be built for J-1 routes.
Further, a TL 9 J-1 ship can probably compete with other ships for
routes with _some_ J-2 legs; under the various rules you can make
a ship that approaches half the operating costs. Thus, you have to
finagle less than you might think to get the desired result.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:25:53 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Islands clusters
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Islands clusters
...
> Prestige? Pride in joining the Imperial mission? There's very good
>economic evidence that the colonies the European powers scrambled for during
>the 19th century never paid for themselves, so why did they do it?
Because the pressure groups arguing for it could never have gotten
money funnelled directly into their own pockets, but the colonial
admin & support, etc., served the same purpose quite handily? :)
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3643
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3644
Date: | 2/12/01 3:19:47 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, February 12 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3644
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Taking moment out from the religion debate...?
Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
Re: Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Re: Taking moment out from the religion debate...?
Real life suspended animation
Real life suspended animation (spell-checked)
Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
RE: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
Re: Ignoring Canon and other thoughts
Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
RE: Deep space refuelling
RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Re: Mines
Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
RE: Rob Davenports 'Boring' thoughts (was Science Fiction)
Re: Anti-RPG
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:01:22 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Taking moment out from the religion debate...?
MJ Dougherty wrpte :
> BTW: some folks were reviewing Behind the Throne... did anyone get that
> done?
Mine's been on my web-site at
http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/~frankie/mundens/reviews.html
for some months now.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:06:46 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:
> This seems an almost universal reaction of people of the female
> persuasion to bad jokes. Good thing my girlfriend is not one of
> them. B-)
Your girlfriend is not of the female persuasion?
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:52:23 +0400
From: Andrew Long <andylong@emirates.net.ae>
Subject: Re: Re: Snappy questions (was, once, 'Proximity to...Radar'
- ----- Original Message -----
> Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 20:19:16 PST
<Snip>
> Translation: "special ordnance" = nukes. At least that's what it usually means.
> Though I suppose it *could* have been merely chemical or biological.
>
> - --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
>
There's nothing 'mere' about chemical or biological weapons. Note the reaction of the East German chancellor in Clancy's Red Storm Rising to the proposal to use chemical weapons in the offensive on NATO (I know, it's a work of fiction - but isn't Clancy supposed to be thorough in his research?)
ObTrav: Which of the NBC triad are the Imperials more worried about? Or is it more than a triad? I note from Peter Hamilton's 'Night's Dawn' trilogy the attitude of the major powers to antimatter weaponry. I don't think that the 3I has the technology for AM weapons (yet.) They must be worried about things like the star trigger, at least; and given the existence of terraforming techniques, they must have the capacity to be used as weapons (if on a longer scale.)
Andy
========================================
Andy Long AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae
========================================
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 02:39:15 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
> Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:47:22 -0500
> From: hal@buffnet.net
> Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
>
> Here is an Adventure hook for the players...
>
> Some well known or perhaps unknown pharmaceutical company discovers a form
> of bacteria existing on some backwater planet. The bacteriologist sent
the
> bacteria in for sample lab work and it was discovered by accident (a
> shipment of munition were sent via that same ship) that these particular
> baterium enjoy working on nitrate based chemicals.
Say goodby to agriculture. Fertilizer = nitrate based chemicals.
Unless of course it combines with the nitrates in such a way as
to inhibit rapid combustion without interfering with it's uptake
through plant root systems. (Don't know off hand if that's
possible. I'm not a chemist.)
> Presto - a new method
> for controlling land mines.
And all firearms. Gunpowder is also known chemically as nitrocelulose (sp?)
I can see a lot of people up in arms (so to speak) over this. All of your
lower
tech armies are now rendered impotent or forced to purchase weapons at
a TL far in advance of anything that can be locally maintained. Mining firms
will be annoyed at having to find reasonable replacements to explosives
(again likely to be expensive high tech gear.) Then of course there's the
Imperial Rifle Association under the leadership of an AI simulacrum of
Charleton Heston. :)
> Unfortunately, the man attempted to sell his
> wonder product to the wrong people and he was found dead, his lab trashed,
> etc. The players discover that his note book was accidentally mis-shipped
> and they have come into possession of his journal. More importantly, they
> have also come into possession of that same sample of bacteria. Now some
> unnamed military complex is trying to forget that this bacteria was ever
> found... (until someone tries to make a sale on the journal etc...)
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 02:48:57 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Taking moment out from the religion debate...?
> Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:33:43 -0000
> From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
> Subject: Taking moment out from the religion debate...?
>
> Folks, I need help.
>
> (They say that's a good first step...)
>
> No, seriously. I need some help and maybe you can provide some of it.
Maybe. What's your payolla budget like and when would I get my check? <grin>
Seriously though I'll write down the titles and the next time i'm in borders
I'll ask.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 00:09:01 -0800
From: Roger Sanger <rodge@nwnexus.com>
Subject: Real life suspended animation
It may not be too long before we have a real low berth.
The field of suspended animation is called crionics, which deals with the science of
freezing organisms for later revivication (not to be confused with cryogenics, which is
general refrigeration science -- usually of food. Technically, crionics is a
subcategory of cryogenics).
They can already easily freeze and store zygots and embryos. But larger organisms such
as a person require more complex procedures, such as the use of an organically
compatible anti-freeze (with which they replace the patient's blood). A cryonically
frozen person sustains about 1% (cellular) damage during the freezing process, which is
far more than the body can cope with and survive (but far less than is sustained during
normal freezing). They have succeeded in freezing a dog and then bringing it back to
life -- unfortunately, it only survived for about an hour. But at least we're
progressing.
Once the patient is frozen, he or she is stored in liquid nitrogen. Kept at or near
absolute zero temperature, he or she sustains no further damage as long as the
temperature in the storage facility doesn't rise above a certain red-line maximum.
Crionics facilities generally have a back-up power generator in case of black outs, to
prevent accidental or premature thawing.
Lots of people are having themselves frozen nowadays. Generally, a client pays for it
by designating the crionics company as the beneficiary of the client's life insurance.
Theoretically, you could set up a trust, the trust paying for the crionic procedure and
storage of your body, with instructions to return your money to you once you are revived
and deamed competent (this practice has yet to be tested in the courts). Having your
head only frozen, costs about 1/3 as much as a whole body freeze (takes up less storage
space in the expensive freezers). The client wears a dog tag explaining the procedures
medical personnel are to follow in the case of the death of the individual. There is
also a phone number. When called, the company sends out an emergency response team
(ERT), who fly to the hospital where the deceased is, perform the crionics procedure,
and then transport the body back to the storage facility. They also urge a call if
death looks eminent.
But why get frozen if it doesn't work? Yes, it may be a long shot, but the reasoning is
that revivication technology might improve enough in the future to be able to fix the 1%
damage which is sustained during the crionic preservation process. Then there is the
"guinea pig" argument: if you are dead anyways, what harm could it do you to let them
experiment on your body for the good of mankind? By working on volunteers' bodies, they
may hone the science into a workable medical technology, or perhaps make other
worthwhile discoveries along the way. (One such discovery is the use of liquid
flourocarbons to fill the lungs to rapidly induce hypothermia in accident victims and
surgery patients -- but it is still in FDA testing. It works much better than packing
the patient in ice, the conventional method currently in use, it greatly improves the
chances of patient survival, and it greatly increases the amount of time in which the
surgery can take place -- this can keep an accident victim alive longer while surgeons
or the victim are enroute).
Even so, what about the crionic patient's memory? Would it be preserved intact, or is
it erased by the freezing process? They don't know yet. If it is erased, and the
client is successfully revived, he may be just a vegetable on life support. Or he may
be no better than a clone of the original, and would have to be educated from scratch --
a child in an adult's body. Goo goo gaa gaa.
Other uses for the technology would be freezing organs for transport and long-term
storage, freezing pets, zoological specimens, etc.
One of the main glitches in the current use of the technology is legal/political. There
is sometimes a conflict with a local authority, such as the police. In a case of
murder, the police want to do an autopsy, but that would totally ruin the client's
already slim chances of being revived. Does a dead person have rights? Is he a person
or just evidence? Exuming a body is also a problem, and requires premature thawing.
Another legal (and philosophical) problem is timing the freezing. Obviously, the longer
you wait to be frozen, the older you will be, and the harder it may be to revive you
when they finally can do that. Also, if you have a progressive disease such as brain
cancer, waiting to be frozen would have deliterious effects -- it might be better to
freeze you until a cure is found. The issue here of course, is suicide. Should you end
your life early in the hopes that crionics will some day lead to revivication, or should
you live out (in misery) what (little) time you have left? A crionics company would be
held criminally liable if it advised a client to commit suicide, or if it assisted in
any way. But for best results, the crionics ERT must be present and set up in advance.
They walk a fine ethical line.
Then there are your heirs. Will they stand by and let you designate yourself as your
own heir, or will they contest it in court? It is pretty hard to contest a life
insurance beneficiary assignment, but contesting a will (or even a trust) is another
story. When you are revived, you may find yourself penniless. On the other hand, if
the courts allow a trust to be created in your name (awaiting your revivication), your
money could be invested in your absence -- over a couple hundred years, it could grow
into an obscene fortune.
Of course, since revivication technology hasn't been tested on humans yet (and isn't
successful even in animal experiments), you wouldn't want to be the first one to be
revived. It would be better to wait until a good chance of success has been achieved,
letting others be the guinea pigs in the meantime.
All these ramifications could be adapted for use in a Traveller campaign. You'd want to
assign a tech level to both the freezing process and to the revivication process (which
deals with repairing freezing damage in addition to merely thawing the patient out).
Crionics has been around for over 30 years, so a freezing process could become available
as early as TL6. Revivication isn't available yet, and probably won't be until TL11 or
TL12.
Have fun,
Rodge
P.S.: My game collection is up for sale. It includes over 2500 items. I'm still in
the process of inventorying (and have only sent out a partial list so far). If there is
anything (Traveller, other sci-fi, D&D/AD&D, other fantasy, gaming mags, etc.) which you
are looking for, drop me a note and I'll keep a lookout for it while I'm going through
this stuff.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 00:17:53 -0800
From: Roger Sanger <rodge@nwnexus.com>
Subject: Real life suspended animation (spell-checked)
(I forgot to spell-check on the previous send, so here it is again)...
It may not be too long before we have a real low berth.
The field of suspended animation is called cryonics, which deals with
the science of
freezing organisms for later revivification (not to be confused with
cryogenics, which is
general refrigeration science -- usually of food. Technically, cryonics
is a
sub category of cryogenics).
They can already easily freeze and store zygotes and embryos. But
larger organisms such
as a person require more complex procedures, such as the use of an
organically
compatible anti-freeze (with which they replace the patient's blood). A
cryonically
frozen person sustains about 1% (cellular) damage during the freezing
process, which is
far more than the body can cope with and survive (but far less than is
sustained during
normal freezing). They have succeeded in freezing a dog and then
bringing it back to
life -- unfortunately, it only survived for about an hour. But at least
we're
progressing.
Once the patient is frozen, he or she is stored in liquid nitrogen.
Kept at or near
absolute zero temperature, he or she sustains no further damage as long
as the
temperature in the storage facility doesn't rise above a certain
red-line maximum.
Cryonics facilities generally have a back-up power generator in case of
black outs, to
prevent accidental or premature thawing.
Lots of people are having themselves frozen nowadays. Generally, a
client pays for it
by designating the cryonics company as the beneficiary of the client's
life insurance.
Theoretically, you could set up a trust, the trust paying for the
cryonic procedure and
storage of your body, with instructions to return your money to you once
you are revived
and deemed competent (this practice has yet to be tested in the courts).
Having your
head only frozen, costs about 1/3 as much as a whole body freeze (takes
up less storage
space in the expensive freezers). The client wears a dog tag explaining
the procedures
medical personnel are to follow in the case of the death of the
individual. There is
also a phone number. When called, the company sends out an emergency
response team
(ERT), who fly to the hospital where the deceased is, perform the
cryonics procedure,
and then transport the body back to the storage facility. They also
urge a call if
death looks eminent.
But why get frozen if it doesn't work? Yes, it may be a long shot, but
the reasoning is
that revivification technology might improve enough in the future to be
able to fix the 1%
damage which is sustained during the cryonic preservation process. Then
there is the
"guinea pig" argument: if you are dead anyway, what harm could it do
you to let them
experiment on your body for the good of mankind? By working on
volunteers' bodies, they
may hone the science into a workable medical technology, or perhaps make
other
worthwhile discoveries along the way. (One such discovery is the use of
liquid
fluorocarbons to fill the lungs to rapidly induce hypothermia in
accident victims and
surgery patients -- but it is still in FDA testing. It works much
better than packing
the patient in ice, the conventional method currently in use, it greatly
improves the
chances of patient survival, and it greatly increases the amount of time
in which the
surgery can take place -- this can keep an accident victim alive longer
while surgeons
or the victim are en route).
Even so, what about the cryonic patient's memory? Would it be preserved
intact, or is
it erased by the freezing process? They don't know yet. If it is
erased, and the
client is successfully revived, he may be just a vegetable on life
support. Or he may
be no better than a clone of the original, and would have to be educated
from scratch --
a child in an adult's body. Goo goo gaa gaa.
Other uses for the technology would be freezing organs for transport and
long-term
storage, freezing pets, zoological specimens, etc.
One of the main glitches in the current use of the technology is
legal/political. There
is sometimes a conflict with a local authority, such as the police. In
a case of
murder, the police want to do an autopsy, but that would totally ruin
the client's
already slim chances of being revived. Does a dead person have rights?
Is he a person
or just evidence? Exhuming a body is also a problem, and requires
premature thawing.
Another legal (and philosophical) problem is timing the freezing.
Obviously, the longer
you wait to be frozen, the older you will be, and the harder it may be
to revive you
when they finally can do that. Also, if you have a progressive disease
such as brain
cancer, waiting to be frozen would have deleterious effects -- it might
be better to
freeze you until a cure is found. The issue here of course, is
suicide. Should you end
your life early in the hopes that cryonics will some day lead to
revivification, or should
you live out (in misery) what (little) time you have left? A cryonics
company would be
held criminally liable if it advised a client to commit suicide, or if
it assisted in
any way. But for best results, the cryonics ERT must be present and set
up in advance.
They walk a fine ethical line.
Then there are your heirs. Will they stand by and let you designate
yourself as your
own heir, or will they contest it in court? It is pretty hard to
contest a life
insurance beneficiary assignment, but contesting a will (or even a
trust) is another
story. When you are revived, you may find yourself penniless. On the
other hand, if
the courts allow a trust to be created in your name (awaiting your
revivification), your
money could be invested in your absence -- over a couple hundred years,
it could grow
into an obscene fortune.
Of course, since revivification technology hasn't been tested on humans
yet (and isn't
successful even in animal experiments), you wouldn't want to be the
first one to be
revived. It would be better to wait until a good chance of success has
been achieved,
letting others be the guinea pigs in the meantime.
All these ramifications could be adapted for use in a Traveller
campaign. You'd want to
assign a tech level to both the freezing process and to the
revivification process (which
deals with repairing freezing damage in addition to merely thawing the
patient out).
Cryonics has been around for over 30 years, so a freezing process could
become available
as early as TL6. Revivification isn't available yet, and probably won't
be until TL11 or
TL12.
Have fun,
Rodge
P.S.: My game collection is up for sale. It includes over 2500 items.
I'm still in
the process of inventorying (and have only sent out a partial list so
far). If there is
anything (Traveller, other sci-fi, D&D/AD&D, other fantasy, gaming mags,
etc.) which you
are looking for, drop me a note and I'll keep a lookout for it while I'm
going through
this stuff.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:47:11 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Timothy Little wrote:
> Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:
> > This seems an almost universal reaction of people of the female
> > persuasion to bad jokes. Good thing my girlfriend is not one of
> > them. B-)
> Your girlfriend is not of the female persuasion?
No, she's not one of the females who don't laugh at bad jokes.
Last time I checked she was very much female, thank you.
B-)
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:10:35 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
>
>At 05:09 PM 2/10/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>Well, all TML Keyboard Kill aces are _authorized_ to wear
>flight jackets
>>and silk scarves. Unfortunately, they are not issue items, and
>>therefore aces must purchase their own garments and accoutrements.
>
>And are required to do so within 180 days of confirmation of
>ace status.
>Requests for exemtion may be made, in writing, to:
>
>TML Ace Advisory Panel
>#7, Up the Back Stairs
>Lemon Curry, Regina.
>
>Ask for "Leon."
Lemon Curry? :)
Dean
MPFC
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:22:05 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Ignoring Canon and other thoughts
>From: hal@buffnet.net
>Subject: Ignoring Canon and other thoughts
Until I talked with some people on
>this list, I'd have never considered giving a price break on Jump-1 Drives
>as being "early tech" devices. As it is, it doesn't really offer that much
>of a savings over straight "price list" cost, but it does trim the cost of
>Jump-1 drives by about 1 million for a Beowulf trader. It does however
>trim the monthl cost owed to the bank by about $4,000 credits. This in
>turn permits the Far Trader to trim his "minimal" 700 credit fee per jump
>for cargo transport down a smattering. Best of all? It fits my "belief"
>that a Jump 1 slower moving ship can charge a lesser fee such that his two
>jump-1's will be marginally cheaper than a Jump-2's single jump fee.
Quick point - imagine 2 systems, 4 parsecs apart on a jump-1 main. Ships take a net 9 days per jump,
including refuelling and getting to and from the jump point. The freight owners dont care how many
weeks it takes the cargo to get there - they are going to go with the lowest bidder.
A jump-1 ship will therefore take 36 days per run, thus it is doing a rough 10 runs a year, thus it needs
to earn enough revenue in only 10 runs to pay it's mortgage and other costs.
A jump-2 ship will take 18 days per run, thus it is doing a rough 20 runs a year, so it needs (relatively)
less revenue per run.
The jump-1 ship clearly needs a lot more than a couple of megacredits off it's mortgage to be
competitive on this route, based on those sort of numbers. OK, they also get a break on their power
plant (a jump-1 ship needs roughly 30 MW per 100 dtons, and a jump-2 ship needs about 60), but
these sort of calculations are what kills jump-1 ships.
You will see new-build jump-1 ships, but they will be for specialist routes and for trading in outsystems,
not for 'general purpose' freight routes.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:17:21 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Go to my news page from my site:
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
They are NOT in the gallery, you have to go from the news page ('cause I'm
too lazy ;)
Best,
Jesse
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:33:01 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Deep space refuelling
>
>From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
> "Any chance they have at least eight other depots, making this
>one Deep Space Nine?"
>
> God no. I'm not suggesting anything like what ever is
>done on that
>execrable collection of television shows.(shudder)
> As detailed in the Traveller Adventure, the Arekut depot
>in the Armais
>subsector has a vessel on station. It most likely acts as a
>gatekeeper;
>performing as a radio beacon, SAR asset, and fuel refinery.
>The crew, and
>maybe the ship itself, would be rotated out on a regular
>basis. Think of
>the crews aboard off shore oil rigs.
> Part of the Oberlineds paln is to capture that vessel and
>then have the
>March Harrier impersonate it. Thois will allow the Oberlindes
>"star merc"
>ship to ambush the newly arrived Arekut shippiing.
> Building a starport in deep space is tha LAST thing I'm
>suggesting.
>
Always struck me as odd that the Station was called Deep Space Nine, anyhow.
Bajor is only a couple of hours away in a sublight shuttle, so the station
is surely within the Bajoran system? Perhaps the name of the system reveals
some Federation chauvinism in regarding non-member world as being out in the
wilderness?
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:56:08 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Wow, she's a beut, Jesse.
Dean
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Jesse DeGraff [mailto:jdegraff@pacbell.net]
>Sent: 12 February 2001 09:17
>To: traveller@lists.ient.com
>Subject: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
>
>
>Go to my news page from my site:
>
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>
>They are NOT in the gallery, you have to go from the news page
>('cause I'm
>too lazy ;)
>
>Best,
>Jesse
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:22:55 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Mines
Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> wrote
> The problem with land mines are places like Cambodia and the Sudan where there
> are _millions_ of the buggers scattered around and no one knows where they
> are.
> obTrav: You can _bet_ this comes under the Imperial rules of war under the
> indiscriminate killing of civilians rule. Either mines are designed to
> decompose safely after a short time, disarm themselves, blow themselves up on
> a radio command, or any merc company or Imperial troops who use 'em are
> required to police their minefields after the action.
But land mines can only hurt people near them. If you have 11,000+
planets with a median population of about 500,000 per planet
then you have much more land available. Why should the Imperium
care about someone getting his leg blown off by a mine, it's
not 'indiscriminate' killing it kills only those foolish enough
to chose to live in an where there was a war within the last
few centuries. :)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:32:15 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Dave DeGraff wrote:
> They are NOT in the gallery, you have to go from the news page ('cause I'm
> too lazy ;)
I looked at the ship and thought 'Sauron'...
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:37:57 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Rob Davenports 'Boring' thoughts (was Science Fiction)
>>>[2] Some of the discussions of slugthrower in recent days (I'm
>>>perpetually catching up on this list) have been enlightening and give
>>>me new regard for the venerable slugthrower, which is great.
>>
>>If you use GURPS at all, check out UT2. Electrothermal slug throwers!
>
>If you use GURPS at all check out Smartguns. At GTL14 a little
>advance for
>GT, but definitely an improvement over the conventional slug
>thrower. Also
>don't forget that Traveller firearms can shoot APS (Armor
>piercing), HEAT
>(High Explosive Shaped Charge) and even Tranq rounds. Much
>more flexible
>than a Laser.
>
>
I personally like to combine the Smartsight Chip from GT2 with some kind of
sensor. You can tell your gun to cover someone and just leave it there! Of
course, you can use the Smartsight with energy weapons, but that's not the
point.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:42:29 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
"Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com> wrote
> my familiarity with
> Christianity and its history would have made it impossible for me to become
> a Christian even if I had never become anything else. It's hard to believe
> that any book is the absolute revealed divine truth after you know that it
> has been edited, repeatedly, by persons with specific political intentions
> in mind, beginning with Constantine's hand-picked bishops in Nicaea, after
> which Christianity became decidedly less anti-militaristic and more socially
> conservative-- and moving forward from there.)
I thought everyone knew that Y*hw*h told them how to edit it :)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:12:35 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
Timothy Little wrote:
> Greenly, Jeff wrote:
> > The primary role of the orbital facility IMTU is not habitation,
> > but commerce, as I see it. I have designed a number of space
> > habitats, but generally they are built into asteroids, because
> > I think it's ridiculous to assume that the amount of labor and
> > material needed to build something as massive as a 52 million
> > dTon station is cost-effectively available.
>
> I would expect it to accrete over decades or centuries as trade
> develops, and more facilities are needed. Sure, it'd be expensive,
> but with handling hundreds of thousands of dtons per week, it'd be
> profitable too.
Hmmm ... "accrete" ... what's the mass of a 'loaded' 52M dton
spaceport? In the film 2010 the Discovery had a thick layer of
sulphur dust accumulated over 10 years in Io's orbit. Okay, that
probably wasn't from gravitational accretion but a 52M dton
spaceport is slightly bigger. Would dust build up over decades
(or even centuries) of use be a significant problem? Especially
near a ring system? (I can see a scenario where the PCs are
delayed in docking their ship as the docking latches on the
ageing spaceport have become clogged ... again!)
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:23:29 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
"Trevor, Peter" wrote:
> Timothy Little wrote:
> > Greenly, Jeff wrote:
> > > The primary role of the orbital facility IMTU is not habitation,
> > > but commerce, as I see it. I have designed a number of space
> > > habitats, but generally they are built into asteroids, because
> > > I think it's ridiculous to assume that the amount of labor and
> > > material needed to build something as massive as a 52 million
> > > dTon station is cost-effectively available.
> >
> > I would expect it to accrete over decades or centuries as trade
> > develops, and more facilities are needed. Sure, it'd be expensive,
> > but with handling hundreds of thousands of dtons per week, it'd be
> > profitable too.
>
> Hmmm ... "accrete" ... what's the mass of a 'loaded' 52M dton
> spaceport? In the film 2010 the Discovery had a thick layer of
> sulphur dust accumulated over 10 years in Io's orbit. Okay, that
> probably wasn't from gravitational accretion but a 52M dton
> spaceport is slightly bigger. Would dust build up over decades
> (or even centuries) of use be a significant problem? Especially
> near a ring system? (I can see a scenario where the PCs are
> delayed in docking their ship as the docking latches on the
> ageing spaceport have become clogged ... again!)
>
> Regards PLST
Something Electrostatic would solve this i think....
Other Rob
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3644
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3645
Date: | 2/12/01 6:07:56 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, February 12 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3645
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Planetary navies
Re: Real life suspended animation
[Website Review] Jumpspace
RE: Real life suspended animation
:Anti-RPG but has become much more malignant...
RE: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
Re: FAR TRADER Economics
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
Re: Islands - Bad example?
Black Curtain (repost)
Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Re: Deep Space Refulling
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:30:36 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Planetary navies
Ben Aaronovitch wrote:
> How many ships constitute a fleet, anybody a clue?
That depends on the ego of the commanding officer and/or
planetary leader. Any planetary navy with more than a few small
ships would probably call itself a fleet.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 03:44:55 -0800
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Re: Real life suspended animation
Roger Sanger <rodge@nwnexus.com> wrote:
(snip)
There's one other caveat to chill the hopes (heh) of all these people who
have themselves frozen, hoping for a cure for what ails them, a new cloned
body for their head, or just one-way time travel: why should any future
society CARE enough to revive them? It presumes a level of charity almost
unheard of in all of history.
Any savings that survives decades of storage fees, service charges (hint:
banks are in business to MAKE money), bank mergers and closings, etc will
likely be expended in the medical bills for revival and treatment. The end
result is a culture-shocked homeless person with few or no useful job
skills. I doubt there'll ever be a shortage of those. More likely, as
Larry Niven noted, the corpsicle will be thawed out a piece at a time for
transplants, or simply tossed in a dumpster when the crionics company goes
bankrupt.
At best, crionic preservation is an act of vanity and/or immortality, not
unlike the Pharoahs laid to rest with all their riches after the priests
worked their era's preservative procedures on the corpse. (Cryo-mummies
won't be as much of a boon to future archaeologists, though; they require
steady power, and won't survive the first thaw.) At worst, it's an
assumption that the Future OWES you something.
- --------------
Kelly St.Clair "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org Right here in fair Verona
With a capital T that rhymes with D
That stands for Duel..."
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:51:01 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: [Website Review] Jumpspace
The Traveller Website Review
- ----------------------------
Time for another lucky dip from the internet ...
Jumpspace
(http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275)
Freelance Traveller calls this site "Welcome to My Dimension
(Glenn Hoppe)" which may have been its original name. What you
get is an old fashioned site layout with four main sections and a
"What's New" page.
The first section, "Traveller Downloads", contains some software
for Traveller. A computer referee assistant (needs Hypercard ...
odd software for an obscure computer system, "Mac" I think). An
ammunition design database (needs Filemaker Pro). Far Trader
deckplans in PDF format. Cutter, Launch, and Ship's Boat in PDF
format. And "Vehicle Factory" ... T4 designer in Excel.
The second section is for using the FUDGE ruleset with Traveller.
It includes both an introduction to FUDGE, and some simple rules
for converting T4 tasks to FUDGE.
The third section, "Jumpspace Institute", has two short articles
(a couple of paragraphs each) on the nature of jumpspace and
interstellar travel. There is also quite a good FAQ on jump that
all newbies (and some oldtimers) to Traveller should read ... 18
common questions with straight forward answers. This section
states it intends to add rules on drives, the effect of gravity,
and a bibliography of jump references ... "coming soon". Looking
at the "What's New" page I wouldn't hold my breath.
The fourth section has add-ons for some computer game called
"Marathon". Some of these add-ons have been designed to
Traveller-ise it. Basically, we are talking new levels ... but
without Marathon I don't see much purpose.
The terrible truth behind this site is revealed on the "What's
New" page. Started on 27-Oct-1996 it was abandoned just 7 months
later on 20-May-1997. Yes folks, this is a dead site. Brush
away the cobwebs, snag what you want, and move on. :-(
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:04:35 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Real life suspended animation
>
>(snip)
>
>There's one other caveat to chill the hopes (heh) of all these
>people who
>have themselves frozen, hoping for a cure for what ails them,
>a new cloned
>body for their head, or just one-way time travel: why should
>any future
>society CARE enough to revive them? It presumes a level of
>charity almost
>unheard of in all of history.
I think that the way it works is that the Cryocompanies are manned by people
who intend to get frozen themselves...so its enlightened self interest.
Remember that these companies will actually have a dedicated staff
monitoring their 'guests' and researching ready to decant and resuscitate.
It's *not* like a time capsule buried in the garden :)
>
>Any savings that survives decades of storage fees, service
>charges (hint:
>banks are in business to MAKE money), bank mergers and
>closings, etc will
>likely be expended in the medical bills for revival and
>treatment. The end
>result is a culture-shocked homeless person with few or no useful job
>skills.
You could always mooch off your decendants :). Besides, you can retrain.
I doubt there'll ever be a shortage of those. More
>likely, as
>Larry Niven noted, the corpsicle will be thawed out a piece at
>a time for
>transplants, or simply tossed in a dumpster when the crionics
>company goes
>bankrupt.
Maybe so. See also Greg Bear's "Heads". Fantastic. :)
>
>At best, crionic preservation is an act of vanity and/or
>immortality, not
>unlike the Pharoahs laid to rest with all their riches after
>the priests
>worked their era's preservative procedures on the corpse.
>(Cryo-mummies
>won't be as much of a boon to future archaeologists, though;
>they require
>steady power, and won't survive the first thaw.)
Actually, the cryostorage is done in vaccuum flasks filled with liquid
nitrogen. Power isn't required, just an occasional top-up to deal with
evaporation. To heck with the archaeologists, cryopreservation is done on
the assumption that eventaully revival will be possible. The cryocompany
staff would likely object to archaeologists coming into their offices and
stealing 'patients'.
At worst, it's an
>assumption that the Future OWES you something.
I'll pay the Future back next week :)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:23:15 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: :Anti-RPG but has become much more malignant...
>From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
"Can we get back to Traveller, please?!?
I have bee stupidly guilty of two posts on this htread and regret both.
I pledge to never to waste the the TML's bandwidth or time on the topic
again. Please except my apologies again.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:27:09 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
Rob Davenport wrote:
> Ah, yes. But people would still be able to order copy of the
> show via mail-order type deal from some company, after a suitable
> producer/distributor-imposed delay of course.
And subject to local censorship and planetary trade laws. High
population planets might ban shows featuring families with more
than one child. A planet who's economy is teatering on the brink
of collapse may ban private offworld trade in an attempt to stop
currency loss. Etc.
On low tech worlds home ownership of 3D viewers may be rare ...
but many shows could still be watched in communal cinemas.
> Eventually all the old shows/etc. would be in a local repository,
> and with a millenium or more there could be plenty to choose from.
> Though I imagine 90+% of it wouldn't be of interest to any but
> historians,
Then there's always the world where a millenium long religious
totalitarian state collapses and the floodgates open ...
> but I could see the local Naasirka media branch making fairly
> recent shows available (per-view fee of course).
Why "of course"? Looking at the current challenges to copyright
by the internet there may be other alternative revenue streams
that cover the cost of production. Built-in advertising, public
service contracts, monthly or annual subscription charges, etc.
Probably varying from planet to planet.
(On the other hand some planets would embrace "per-use" fees ...
and not just for viewing entertainment media. Why not shock your
players by introducing them to the concept of "pay-per-wear"
clothing!)
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:34:51 +0000
From: Phil Kitching <postmark.design@btinternet.com>
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics
JR Holmes wrote:
>Of course, though there would appear to be a small number of these
>sort of ads represented in canonical adventures or adventure seeds,
>they do appear to be more the exception than the rule. These ads
>would need to be uncommon or else the speculative cargo rules of CT
>would not have existed.
I disagree - they sound like an excellent justification for the
speculative cargo rules.
Why else would your trader decide that paying double the normal
cost for grain from a High Tech Industrial to take to a low tech
poor world would be better than buying computers at retail?
Phil Kitching
- --
http://www.btinternet.com/~salvo/
Postmark Design Bureau, Emerging Technologies Division.
"Microwaving half-baked ideas from across the Galaxy"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:41:00 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
From: hal@buffnet.net
"Here is an Adventure hook for the players...
"Some well known or perhaps unknown pharmaceutical company discovers a
form of bacteria existing on some backwater planet. The bacteriologist sent
the bacteria in for sample lab work and it was discovered by accident (a
shipment of munition were sent via that same ship) that these particular
baterium enjoy working on nitrate based chemicals. Presto - a new method
for controlling land mines. Unfortunately, the man attempted to sell his
wonder product to the wrong people and he was found dead, his lab trashed,
etc. The players discover that his note book was accidentally mis-shipped
and they have come into possession of his journal. More importantly, they
have also come into possession of that same sample of bacteria. Now some
unnamed military complex is trying to forget that this bacteria was ever
found... (until someone tries to make a sale on the journal etc...)"
I love it! The bacteria could be air-dropped over a mine field and
then you let nature work.
How about this too. Thye need some sort of trace minerals or compunds
in the soil to survive and thrive. The compounds could dropped along with
the beasties and reapplied in order to keep them working. When the field is
deactivated, you stop the mineral dusting and the useful little fellows die
out.
I'm suggesting this so the bacteria are a little harder to use and can
be turned "off". Otherwise, anyone with a sample could add them to an
opponnet's ship's air ducts, wait a certain amount of time, and board it
without trouble. The bacteria would have dined on all the small arms
ammunition during the wait.
The bacteria were able to thrive in the cargo hold of the first ship
because they'd been packed with their soil samples.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:58:44 -0000
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
Subject: Muppet Strikes Again.
Hiya peeps,
I have noticed that "Larsen E. Whipsnade" keeps calling everybody 'Mr'
<surname> when addressing people; two thoughts spring to mind...
Does this mean he considers everyone else on the list to be more 'worthy' of
respect than himself? Or...
I've heard rumours that certain groups use the term 'Mr' as an insult (as
in, "You really don't want to open that door, Mr Jones." when what they
really mean is "You can't really be that dumb, can you Major?!") - could it
be that he's insulting people?
ObTrav (OBligatory TRAVeller reference) - someone uses a term as a mark of
respect and the 'receiver' takes it as an insult... "Careful Janet, these
people are foreigners and may have customs different from our own."
On a totally different topic (and following from my question last week ref
proximity to radar systems), has anyone ever compiled a "Who's Who" of the
TML? Perhaps "Who's What" would be a better term - a list of who does what,
and therefore who might be able to help with a particular topic or problem -
I count myself *very* lucky to be a member of a group that has members with
such a wide-ranging spread of knowledge (even those who work for EDS)...
Jeff.
(Oh, I work for CSC ;-)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:58:12 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
Rob Davenport wrote:
> So a fair to large amount of commercial communications? I
> suppose only the megacorporations would have the resources to
> operate their own interoffice x-boat system. Smaller
> corporations could still have smaller x-boat systems, or
> dedicated couriers, etc., but the majority of small to mid
> and even large business traffic would be through the IISS
> x-boat system. OK, that seems to gel for me. Thanks!
Here's a thought: megacorp interoffice x-boat systems ... why?
Does "McDonalds (UK) Ltd" pass on *all* its paperwork (staff and
payroll records, store performance records, local supplier
invoices, etc) to the head office on the US? Unlikely.
"McDonalds (UK) Ltd" acts as an independant company and just
sends summary accounting information to the parent company.
Similarly TU megacorps would behave the same way. Thus, except
for the interstellar transport industry, OIC (offworld
interoffice communication) would be relatively small and could
therefore go via normal x-boat. The different operating units
of a megacorp would function larely as independant companies, so
the volume of OIC would be similar to the volume of B2B
communication.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:06:43 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Islands - Bad example?
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
"FWIW, it's not clear that they can do much more than neutralize
their neighbours - even with a 10:1 advantage (TCS; "only" 6:1 in
RSB) there's some serious limits to their efficiency under HG2."
"Armour J opponents is bad enough, but they not only don't have
meson weapons themselves but are down a TL on computers!"
"And a huge portion of their budget has to go into tankers if
they want to get anything done :)"
It didn't make any sense to me either! I would drop hints about the
"paper tiger" nature of Esperanza to the players and they would continue
with their minimalist, nervous skirmishing with each other. They'd arrange
cease fires, whine to the Old Islands' players tha attacked them, and keep
staring at Esperanza.
All I can say is that they hadn't parsed the HG2 rules and tech levels
as well as we members of the "ct-starships" list. Or hadn't parsed them at
all. They were behaving more like everyday, scared humans and not taking
the time to calculate.
In the many TCS games I moderated, Esperanza was never selected by a
player. In fact, if a prospective player found out the only system left was
Esperanza, they'd rather sit out and wait for the next game! They were
afriad of it on one hand and didn't want to play it on the other! I can't
explain that either.
The TCS tournies I moderated usually had Esperanza and New Home played
by the moderator. I had a Serendip player take the time to attack Esperanza
once (building tankers, etc.) but his fleet was not optimized to handle
fast, agile, buffered planetoids armed with PAWs. (I'd built most of the
fleet as monitors/riders with a squadron of jump tenders.) Although he
caused a great deal of damage, his own losses meant he was successfully
knocked over by a Joyuese/Neubayern alliance.
Mabe the memory of that incident kept the New Island players both
fearful of Esperanza and desirous of avoiding it.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 05:20:31 -0800
From: "Jeffrey Yin" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Black Curtain (repost)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C094B3.84BB5420
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am confused. Is the only reason some people believe the Black Curtain =
may be something "supernatural" is due to the paragraph in Survival =
Margin?
Jeffrey Yin
- ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C094B3.84BB5420
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HEAD>
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charset=3Diso-8859-1">
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.50.4134.600" name=3DGENERATOR>
<STYLE></STYLE>
</HEAD>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>I am confused. Is the only reason some =
people=20
believe the Black Curtain may be something "supernatural" is due to the=20
paragraph in Survival Margin?</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Jeffrey=20
Yin</DIV></DIV></DIV>
- ------=_NextPart_000_0022_01C094B3.84BB5420--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 07:32:54 -0600
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Jesse DeGraff gifted us with:
>
> Go to my news page from my site:
>
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>
> They are NOT in the gallery, you have to go from the news page ('cause I'm
> too lazy ;)
>
> Best,
> Jesse
DANG, Jesse! You always give us your best.
BTW, Happy Birthday!
The scout is awesome. That shade of red really looks eerie.
As for the corsair..oh BAYbee!
Both just joined my Jesse DeGraff collection of Traveller
art.
Hmmm..I wonder if my inkjet printer can make a T-shirt
ironable.
If so, you just earned one.
David Smart
(one of the original Jesse fans)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:31:09 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
>From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
"Just so we are all looking at the same page. Goto
http://maps.grandsurvey.com and download the Imperial trade map built by
Anthony Jackson."
Thanks for the link!
"The Spinward Main does not reach into Deneb at all."
Wow. So Dojodo/Mora and Tacaxeb/Rhylanor don't "connect" to any
Denebian counterparts. That's wild!. The Spinward Main snakes all this
distance, then BAM it stops right at the border.
"By my count, there are at least 10 2 parsec gaps to be covered between
the Vilani main and the Spinward Main."
Yup, fit's in with Han's work on refugee settled worlds in Deneb.
They'd need the RoM's jump-3 to get there.
"By the time the Consolidation wars were over, the Vilani has
essentially stopped expanding and conquered all known races. While they may
have explored out to spinward, if the Corridor and Provence sectors were
essentially empty of any minor human or alien races, there would have been
little attraction to the area."
I agree again. A mixture of available technology, existing Mains, and
the attractions of minor races and previously settled worlds created the
"shape" of the Ziru Sirka. They couldn't get to Deneb wihtout great effort
and weren't inclined to make it.
"The smallest planetoid you can safely target with a Jump 1 drive is
about 50km in diameter. Any smaller and the variability of the jump drive
and the ship's real space vector may cause the ship to smash into the object
before the crew has a chance to react."
Sorry, now I'm confused.(My usual state) Are you saying that a mass is
needed to percipitate a ship out of jump space so a ship must "aim" for it.
Or do you think they can't "aim" at a point within a 1 or 2 AU of their
destination and still have the time/fuel to rendevouz? How do I jump into a
belt system then?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:48:11 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
Jeff Rowse wrote:
> I have noticed that "Larsen E. Whipsnade" keeps calling everybody
> 'Mr' <surname> when addressing people; two thoughts spring to
> mind...
<snip>
> I've heard rumours that certain groups use the term 'Mr' as an
> insult (as in, "You really don't want to open that door, Mr
> Jones." when what they really mean is "You can't really be that
> dumb, can you Major?!") - could it be that he's insulting people?
The original JTAS article on the Sword Worlds mentioned this
trait. IIRC a Sword Worlder will usually misconstrue sarcastic
politeness as sincerity. Perhaps Mr Whipsnade is a Sword
Worlder. :-^
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:46:12 -0000
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jesse DeGraff
Sent: Monday, 12 February 2001 9:17 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Go to my news page from my site:
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
They are NOT in the gallery, you have to go from the news page ('cause I'm
too lazy ;)
Best,
Jesse
These are truly inspiring designs, if you ever have the time, more please.
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:52:06 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
David Smart wrote:
> Hmmm..I wonder if my inkjet printer can make a T-shirt
> ironable.
> If so, you just earned one.
Your local computer shop should carry inkjet printer transfer
paper that will allow you to make T-shirt prints.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:00:30 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
Jeff Rowse wrote:
> ObTrav (OBligatory TRAVeller reference) - someone uses a term as a mark of
> respect and the 'receiver' takes it as an insult... "Careful Janet, these
> people are foreigners and may have customs different from our own."
Say,
Does any of you folks know how to Madison?
> On a totally different topic (and following from my question last week ref
> proximity to radar systems), has anyone ever compiled a "Who's Who" of the
> TML? Perhaps "Who's What" would be a better term - a list of who does what,
> and therefore who might be able to help with a particular topic or problem -
That would be a very useful list indeed. Include physical location,
occupation, active campaigns, martial status...
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:59:38 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
>Jeff Rowse wrote:
>> I have noticed that "Larsen E. Whipsnade" keeps calling everybody
>> 'Mr' <surname> when addressing people; two thoughts spring to
>> mind...
><snip>
>> I've heard rumours that certain groups use the term 'Mr' as an
>> insult (as in, "You really don't want to open that door, Mr
>> Jones." when what they really mean is "You can't really be that
>> dumb, can you Major?!") - could it be that he's insulting people?
>
>The original JTAS article on the Sword Worlds mentioned this
>trait. IIRC a Sword Worlder will usually misconstrue sarcastic
>politeness as sincerity. Perhaps Mr Whipsnade is a Sword
>Worlder. :-^
>
Does that mean Swordworlder is from Whipsnade? :)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:03:10 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
Rob wrote:
> Something Electrostatic would solve [the dust problem] i think....
Using an electrostatic charge in the hull would get rid of all particles
of the same charge as the hull. Neutral particles would not be affected.
Particles with the opposite charge would be attracted to the hull.
Besides, you don't want the hair of new arrivals to look like a bad
70ies imitation.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:00:46 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
>Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:39:45 -0800
>From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
>Subject: re: Islands - Bad example?
>
>...
> >Incompetence in the Imperium's higher levels isn't anything new. Can you
> >say Sector Admiral Frederick Santanocheev?
>
> Revisionist! The man was a hero, betrayed by back-stabbing
>opportunists who wanted his job!
>
> ("his followers ... worship him like a god")
>
>------------------------------
"I love the smell of PGMPs in the morning! They smell like... victory."
THAT would make one heck of a Traveller campaign. Send the party out to
the bass end of the Imperium, behind the Claw, where an Imperial Navy
captain, in charge of a destroyer-raider squadron, has become something of
an aembarrassment to the Iridium Throne....
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 03:36:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
In mail you write:
>> bacteria in for sample lab work and it was discovered by accident (a
>> shipment of munition were sent via that same ship) that these particular
>> baterium enjoy working on nitrate based chemicals.
>
> Say goodby to agriculture. Fertilizer = nitrate based chemicals.
> Unless of course it combines with the nitrates in such a way as
> to inhibit rapid combustion without interfering with it's uptake
> through plant root systems. (Don't know off hand if that's
> possible. I'm not a chemist.)
Actually, if it just broke the explosives down into a different (less
energetic) nitrate "goo", the explosion would be lessened, though it'd
take a fair while to completely neutralize even a small charge. And the
detonator will still go boom, as they don't use nitrate based compounds.
Of course, simply sealing the explosive into an impermeable membrane
will stop the bacteria without affecting the usefulness of the mine in
the least.
>> Presto - a new method
>> for controlling land mines.
>
> And all firearms. Gunpowder is also known chemically as nitrocelulose (sp?)
> I can see a lot of people up in arms (so to speak) over this. All of your
> lower
> tech armies are now rendered impotent or forced to purchase weapons at
> a TL far in advance of anything that can be locally maintained. Mining firms
> will be annoyed at having to find reasonable replacements to explosives
> (again likely to be expensive high tech gear.)
Actually, for blasting, one "simple" alternative (for cases where you
place the charge right before the blast) is to pack the hole with
cotton, and pour in LOX. This is used in some coal mines and works
*quite* well. They like it because neither component is likely to
explode on its own while being transported (though a LOX spill in a
coal mine wouldn't be fun).
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3645
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3646
Date: | 2/12/01 8:02:10 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, February 12 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3646
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Real life suspended animation
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
RE: Mines, yours, and ours
RE: Real life suspended animation
RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Re: Ignoring Canon and other thoughts
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
Re:[TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
RE: Deep space refuelling
Re:[TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
RE: Deep space refuelling
Re: [TML] Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Citizens of the TML (was Re: Muppet Strikes Again.)
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: Theory of Evolution
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
RE: Anti-RPG
RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Re: Boing
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:06:19 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Real life suspended animation
From: Roger Sanger <rodge@nwnexus.com>
"It may not be too long before we have a real low berth."
"The field of suspended animation is called crionics, which deals with
the science of freezing organisms for later revivication (not to be confused
with cryogenics, which is general refrigeration science -- usually of food.
Technically, crionics is a subcategory of cryogenics)."
Thanks for the very informative post. I was immediately reminded of
Niven's stories involving organ banks and the horrific culture that uses
them.
His future world had folks who'd frozen themselves too and when the
supply of repair "parts" in the organ banks started to drop, the selfish,
ghoul-like citizenry began looking to see what was in the "freezer". First,
they thawed and disassembled all of those corpsicles that wouldn't have
enough money to support themselves if they were brought back. Next, they
decided to go after anyone who might have been frozen with the hope that
their mental illnesses could be cured in the future. The entire affair is
stopped (for the meantime) after a series of scandals and bad publicity. Of
course, Niven leaves the door open for the corpsicles to be broken up at a
later date, when the citizenry's greed outweigh's their morals. A pretty
good bet in my book.
Niven's organ bank stories make me shudder and if you think the society
he proposed would never come to pass, think about this. There have been
several couples over the last few years who have gone to great lengths to
concieve and bear a child for the express purpose of harvesting bone marrow
or blood factors from it. These "materials" are for the medical treatment
of another child, so the entire affair is currently considered "noble". In
fact so much so that the parents are lionized in the media. The child
providing the "spare parts" isn't consulted about it though.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:05:03 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
>Rob wrote:
>> Something Electrostatic would solve [the dust problem] i think....
>
>Using an electrostatic charge in the hull would get rid of all
>particles
>of the same charge as the hull. Neutral particles would not be
>affected.
>Particles with the opposite charge would be attracted to the hull.
>Besides, you don't want the hair of new arrivals to look like a bad
>70ies imitation.
Depends on which Milieu you're playing in :)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:07:30 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Mines, yours, and ours
>
>Actually, for blasting, one "simple" alternative (for cases where you
>place the charge right before the blast) is to pack the hole with
>cotton, and pour in LOX. This is used in some coal mines and works
>*quite* well. They like it because neither component is likely to
>explode on its own while being transported (though a LOX spill in a
>coal mine wouldn't be fun).
>
I can see the headlines now:
40 die in cream cheese flood. Survivors are described as 'delicious'.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:12:48 -0000
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Real life suspended animation
Don't try investing in Australian institutions if having yourself cryo
frozen. There is a federal law here that if there have been no transactions
on your account for a number of years (I cannot remember the actual number,
and bank charges do not count) then the assets are transferred to the
governments general revenue. You would then have to prove it was yours
before it is returned, without any interest. Just think what a century of
inflation would do to that investment!
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:12:52 -0000
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Sauron was a Vilani?
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:20:34 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Ignoring Canon and other thoughts
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
"You will see new-build jump-1 ships, but they will be for specialist
routes and for trading in outsystems, not for 'general purpose' freight
routes."
As usual, very good points. How many systems in the Imperium as a
whole trade with others 1 parsec away? Wouldn't the heavily settled
portions of the Core region have a few? Or, how many systems that trade are
2 parsecs apart, with a "worthless" (that is a system only used for it's
fuel resources) between them?
Would those two routes qualify under your "specialist route" loopholes?
Also, how does an outsystem trader refuel for the micro-jump back?
Iceballs? Gas giant? Iceball moved there on purpose? (gasp) Fuel depot?
(double gasp)
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:24:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Houghton <herveus@Radix.Net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
Howdy!
Jens wrote:
> Rob wrote:
> > Something Electrostatic would solve [the dust problem] i think....
>
[snip]
> Besides, you don't want the hair of new_arrivals to look like a bad
> 70ies imitation.
>
I was watching the NASA "Daily replay" Friday evening. Molly Ivins, one
of the mission specialists, has hair that reaches well down her back.
In one scene, she drifted in with it completely unbound. It all stood
pretty much straight out in a spectacular fashion. Don King would have been
jealous.
yours,
Michael
- --
Michael and MJ Houghton | Herveus d'Ormonde and Megan O'Donnelly
herveus@radix.net | White Wolf and the Phoenix
Bowie, MD, USA | Tablet and Inkle bands, and other stuff
| http://www.radix.net/~herveus/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:24:26 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re:[TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
>Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:56:24 -0800
>From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
>Subject: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....
>
>Don't have time to check my books, and need to know this.
>
>Isn't the Flaming Eye the Vilani equivalent of the Solomani Skulls &
>Crossbones? I've got a pic of the Eye on a Vargr ship, but I coulda' sworn
>I'd read that it was a Vilani symbol. Maybe the Vargr ship was f#@%ing with
>the Vilani? ;)
>
>Thanks!!!!
>Jesse
Jesse,
Don't know if you can really use that. The only indication I've seen that
the Flaming Eye is a pirates' symbol (a la the Jolly Roger (or the hundreds
other pirate flags that were in use, including John Rackham's skull and
cutlasses)) was in the Starship Operator's Manual by DGP. That may or may
not be canon verboten. It was, however, Vilani. I would say the Vargr
crew of that corsair had learned that such a symbol would be immediately
recognizable to their usual prey.
You could, of course, develop your own symbols without breaching canon too
much at all. Historical pirates typically used whatever symbols they
wanted, including those of death (skulls, crossbones, bleeding hearts)
weapons (swords and pistols) and time (hourglass, clock). Edward Teach,
aka Blackbeard, had as his flag a skeleton with a scythe holding a bleeding
heart and an hourglass, I believe. As noted above, John Rackham's was a
skull and crossed cutlasses; you can see an example of this in the movie
_Cutthroat_Island._
Possible origin of the flaming eye: essentially, 'We see you, and we're
coming to get you like a firey meteor. You can't hide from us.' That
seems to be in keeping with how space pirates might need to act in OTU; it
would not seem to be a symbol from maritime pirates.
Other possible Vilani pirate symbols: a comet, an exploding sun, bird of
prey talons, flaming talons, talons grasping a weapon. Any symbiology
reflecting "we see you," "we're coming to get you faster than the
constabulary can come to save you," and "give up NOW."
Contrast this to Earth maritime pirate symbols: "we can kill you,"
(weapons) "we can make your life extremely unpleasant," (skulls, bleeding
hearts) "time is running out for you" (hourglasses.) A Solomani-Vilani
mixed pirate crew might come up with, as their symbol, a flaming skull in
profile, or talons grasping crossed bones.
This is all speculation on my part, but the symbols used by pirates can be
a study in heraldry all to itself, sometimes. =) Sorry for going off on a
tangent, here; piracy -- not only in Traveller but in history -- is a
subject I'm very interested in. =)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:32:27 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Deep space refuelling
>From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
"Always struck me as odd that the Station was called Deep Space Nine,
anyhow. Bajor is only a couple of hours away in a sublight shuttle, so the
station is surely within the Bajoran system? Perhaps the name of the system
reveals some Federation chauvinism in regarding non-member world as being
out in the wilderness?"
Don't ask me. I've assidiously avoided all things "Trek" since
childhood, although because it is part of popular culture, you can't help
but have a little "rub off" on you.
The original show sucked enough for me, then a child, to loathe it. My
two siblings of course insisted on watching it for that very reason. They
later did the same thing with "The Brady Bunch". The next 2 (3?) Trek
series sucked also, albeit with the help of better special effects and a bit
more production money.
The fact that both of these wastes of vidoetape are now cult favorites
continually reminds me that nothing has changed since the days of P.T.
Barnum and the "Fiji Mermaid".
Larsen
P.S. I do always get a laugh about how all of Trek's aliens are upright
bipeds with different bits of plumbing supplies glued to their faces.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:37:32 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:[TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
>Other possible Vilani pirate symbols: a comet, an exploding sun, bird of
>prey talons, flaming talons, talons grasping a weapon. Any symbiology
>reflecting "we see you," "we're coming to get you faster than the
>constabulary can come to save you," and "give up NOW."
Or the really frightening thing: a giant beetle, holding up a sheaf of
governmental forms. It means "We're Vilani. Give us what we want or we'll
make your life a Kafka-esque bureaucratic nightmare."
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:39:14 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
"Hmmm ... "accrete" ... what's the mass of a 'loaded' 52M dton
spaceport? In the film 2010 the Discovery had a thick layer of
sulphur dust accumulated over 10 years in Io's orbit. Okay, that
probably wasn't from gravitational accretion but a 52M dton
spaceport is slightly bigger."
I think in this instance he was using "accrete" to describe how
additional modules and construction would slowly be added to the station
over the decades as new capabilities are felt to be necessary.
Or did I miss the "funny" in your post?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:37:51 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Deep space refuelling
>
> Don't ask me. I've assidiously avoided all things "Trek" since
>childhood, although because it is part of popular culture, you
>can't help
>but have a little "rub off" on you.
True...I remember being horrified at one point during a episode of Voyager
when a wall panel explodes and I absent-mindedly muttered to myself 'That'll
be a blown plasma conduit'. I was right. :(
>
>
> Larsen
>P.S. I do always get a laugh about how all of Trek's aliens
>are upright
>bipeds with different bits of plumbing supplies glued to their faces.
Yeah...there was some handwave or other explaining that in TNG, but I don't
remmeber it.
I think in one episode of the original series there was an intelligent,
non-humanoid alien. Sadly, it was so ugly it had to kept in a box :)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:36:50 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
>Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:17:21 -0800
>From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
>Subject: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
>
>Go to my news page from my site:
>
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>
>They are NOT in the gallery, you have to go from the news page ('cause I'm
>too lazy ;)
>
>Best,
>Jesse
>
>------------------------------
*bounces up and down with glee* Woohooo! It looks great, Jesse! Nice
placement of the Flaming Eye, too! Thank you! =)
(Yes... as you've seen by now I'm a huge fan of that class of ship. =) Too
bad it's not really feasible for a Type P to really waltz up, haul a Type S
in it's bay, and run off. Now THAT'S piracy! ;)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:18:26 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Citizens of the TML (was Re: Muppet Strikes Again.)
Hey "Mr." Jeff, glad you brought that up!
Considering how many newbies we have, now would be a good time to mention
the Citizens of the TML page and invite members, old and new, to add or
update their mini bios at:
http://www.downport.com/understanding/TML.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<><~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Colin Michael, swordy@e-g-g.net
www.Downport.com - "Traveller Web Portal"
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
> On a totally different topic (and following from my question last week ref
> proximity to radar systems), has anyone ever compiled a "Who's Who" of the
> TML? Perhaps "Who's What" would be a better term - a list of who does
what,
> and therefore who might be able to help with a particular topic or
problem -
> I count myself *very* lucky to be a member of a group that has members
with
> such a wide-ranging spread of knowledge (even those who work for EDS)...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:47:53 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
> The original JTAS article on the Sword Worlds mentioned this
> trait. IIRC a Sword Worlder will usually misconstrue sarcastic
> politeness as sincerity. Perhaps Mr Whipsnade is a Sword
> Worlder. :-^
Why thank you. You are so kind.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:42:23 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
Dean Jones wrote:
> Does that mean Swordworlder is from Whipsnade? :)
ROFLOL ... I'd missed that one. Good job I wasn't drinking
anything just now.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:49:51 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Theory of Evolution
DaveShayne writes:
>>>And looking for individual survival traits in a species whose greatest
>>>survival trait is co-operative action is probably counter-productive.
>>Actually, there is no shortage of individual survival traits to
>>be found in humans.
>I didn't deny it. I'm suggesting that those individual traits pale against
>the overiding trait of co-operative action. Working together humans
>are the strongest and fastest creatures on the planet. Working
>individually even the fastest and strongest are comparatively slow
>and weak.
What I am suggesting is that co-operative action is not an
"overiding trait" in humans. We certainly do co-operate quite
a bit, but evidence suggests that we cheat at least as often
(when we have the chance). I might be argued that what sets
us appart is not our tendency to co-operative behaviour, but
rather our intelligence and language which make it more
difficult to cheat.
>>Our propensity for selfish behaviour is
>>a good place to start.
>Assuming we are demonstrably more selfish than other species.
>An assumption that I don't think is well founded.
I am making no such assumption, nor did I imply in any way
that humans are more selfish than members of other species.
I was merely responding to your suggestion that "looking for
individual survival traits in a species whose greatest survival
trait is co-operative action is probably counter-productive."
>>There is still some debate as to the
>>mechanisms by which cooperative behaviour evolves, but
>>many believe that it may be attributed to purely selfish
>>behaviours.
>Which still leaves the co-operative behavior in place.
Of course, why would it do otherwise? Looking for
individual survival traits in humans may help us to
understand co-operative and apparently co-operative
behaviour. Nothing more.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:45:47 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
Curses! I want my scarf :)
Dean
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Trevor, Peter [mailto:Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com]
>Sent: 12 February 2001 14:42
>To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
>Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
>
>
>Dean Jones wrote:
>> Does that mean Swordworlder is from Whipsnade? :)
>
>ROFLOL ... I'd missed that one. Good job I wasn't drinking
>anything just now.
>
>Regards PLST
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:58:14 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
>From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
"Hiya peeps,
I have noticed that "Larsen E. Whipsnade" keeps calling everybody
'Mr'<surname> when addressing people; two thoughts spring to mind...
Does this mean he considers everyone else on the list to be more
'worthy' of respect than himself? Or..."
Yes, very much so. I'm a newbie to this lsit and my post and queries
are undoubtedly about things the members have already hashed out, explained,
and/or decided on.
In order to coax replies to my (relativley) boring or simplistic
questions, I show a little respect ot those foolks kind enough to take the
time to answer and explain things.
Besides, being polite doesn't cost you a thing and makes th world a
better place.
"I've heard rumours that certain groups use the term 'Mr' as an
insult (as in, "You really don't want to open that door, Mr Jones." when
what they really mean is "You can't really be that dumb, can you Major?!") -
could it be that he's insulting people?"
As a former member of the military, I can tell you that it does happen
quite frequently, but the implied insult is delivered through intonation of
the title in question. In my posts to the TML I do not intend the polite
use of a title to be construed as an insult. Besides, the tonal inflections
can't be transmitted via e-mail. ;)
If I wanted to insult the members of the list via e-mail (a Very Bad
Idea proably resulting in my being unsubscribed) I would drop the polite
form of address. Do you understand that, Rowse? ;)
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:53:49 -0000
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
Another thing is that a structure of this size, "accreting" over the years
is likely to have an awful lot of mixed tech equipment. The maintenance for
such a station would be quite amazing. Think of a 52 Mdt Mir.
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:03:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
Terry Carlino writes:
>"Ah, now there is a contradiction. Think about what you just said for
>a moment. A "tested (and proven) scientific theory". Last I checked if
>something is proven it's not a theory.
<snipped>
Check again.
First, the amount of evidence for or against something has no
bearing at all on whether or not it is considered a theory in
science. There are theories with lots of evidence (cell theory,
evolutionary theory, atomic theory), and there are others with
less evidence (gremlin theory, astological theory). No doubt,
there are many who would dissagree as to which theories enjoy
lots of evidence and which do not, but the point here is that
such evidence is irrelevent to the status of "theory."
Second, nothing in science is ever considered "proven." No
hypothesis, no theory, no fact. I like Stephen J. Gould's
definition of a fact: "An hypothesis confirmed to such a
degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional
consent."
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:08:07 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Antony Farrell wrote:
> Sauron was a Vilani?
Vilani are orcs?
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:14:13 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
>Jeff Rowse wrote:
> > I have noticed that "Larsen E. Whipsnade" keeps calling everybody
> > 'Mr' <surname> when addressing people; two thoughts spring to
> > mind...
><snip>
> > I've heard rumours that certain groups use the term 'Mr' as an
> > insult (as in, "You really don't want to open that door, Mr
> > Jones." when what they really mean is "You can't really be that
> > dumb, can you Major?!") - could it be that he's insulting people?
>
>The original JTAS article on the Sword Worlds mentioned this
>trait. IIRC a Sword Worlder will usually misconstrue sarcastic
>politeness as sincerity. Perhaps Mr Whipsnade is a Sword
>Worlder. :-^
Gentlemen,
Please, although I have read "The Prince" many times, I am not as
machiavellian as all that. Besides, thinking up and implementing such a
widespread campaign of disrespect is far beyond my feeble mental powers.
My choice of "Larsen E. Whipsnade" was an attempt on my part to avoid
bothering with a great deal of spam on my Hotmail account. Anyone e-mailing
me and using the name "Larsen" would immediately be suspect unless the
return address was one I recognized. I could then "flush" unsolicited mail
without bothering to open it.
Using a pseudonym has apparently made people ascribe nefarious motives
to my presence and posts on the TML. If this is true, you all have my
apologies. My actual name is William R. Cameron, Bill to my friends (which
I hope you all will become). Some of you on the ct-starship and Traveller
Culture lists might recognize me.
Once again, my apologies.
Larsen E. "Bill" Whipsnade
P.S. My pseudonym was shamelessly stolen from my hero, W.C. Fields. He,
like me, was a grumpy, misundersatood curmudgeon, with a crusty exterior and
a soft and gooey center.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:28:24 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
>From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
"Another thing is that a structure of this size, "accreting" over the
years is likely to have an awful lot of mixed tech equipment. The
maintenance for such a station would be quite amazing. Think of a 52 Mdt
Mir."
OMIGAWD! You deserve ace status for that one alone!
Having been involved in some really huge (for Earth anyway) projects,
just the thought of building or maintaining such a beastie is mind boggling.
Robots anyone?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:54:13 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Antony Farrell wrote:
> Sauron was a Vilani?
I thought he was an Israli ... just won an election there, or something.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 07:16:15
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
At 06:59 PM 2/11/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>The point I was trying to make was that its easy to say "charge through the
>mine field" when you aren't going to be doing the charging.
It is interesting to note that the German officers who built this excellent
fields were largely trained (or were) WWI vets, while the Soviet officers
who pioneered the "bash on through" tactic were mostly political appointees
who had never heard a shot fired in anger until 1941.
In the US Army, the officer giving the order had better be up in front.
The motto of the Infantry is "Follow Me!", and we mean it.
>I had read that Patton 'slapped' the soldier. Was it a 'slug', as in punch?
Accounts differ. Several eyewitnesses report that Patton did in fact
flatten the poor guy, but it was changed to a slap for the public's
consumption. "Slapping some sense into him" was an acceptable cover.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"Some days, you just can't get rid of a bomb!"
-Adam West, as Batman
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 07:21:06
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Boing
At 07:13 PM 2/11/2001 PST, you wrote:
>What do you mean "Bay Area"? *Fandom* (in general) gets odd.
Have you ever had a con chair go the entire weekend with two hamsters
(plushies) duct-taped to his epulats as a badge of rank?
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3646
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3647
Date: | 2/12/01 9:04:36 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, February 12 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3647
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
RE: Deep space refuelling
RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
RE: [TML] Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: Deep space refuelling
Re: Landgrab! Regina/ Forboldn, Knorbes, and Whanga
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 07:58:53
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
At 12:58 PM 2/12/2001 -0000, you wrote:
>ObTrav (OBligatory TRAVeller reference) - someone uses a term as a mark of
>respect and the 'receiver' takes it as an insult... "Careful Janet, these
>people are foreigners and may have customs different from our own."
<RHPS-nit> The actual line is:
JANET: This isn't the Junior Chamber of Commerce, Brad.
BRAD: They're probably foreigners with ways different than our own. They
may do some more... folk dancing.
JANET: Look, I'm cold, I'm wet, and I'm just plain scared!
BRAD: I'm here - there's nothing to worry about.
JANET: (Screams & faints)
<RHPS-nit>
And on that note.. ever notice that Riff-Raff and Magenta are actually
Taverchedle' agents? Truth!
1. They never speak to each other, until the very end of the film.
Telepathy!
2. They bring down Frank-N-Furtur for having "too extreme" a lifestyle.
3. Magenta's releasing of "the Dogs" is symbolic of the Outworld
Coalition's attacks on the combined might of the Imperium's mind (Vilani)
and physical strength represented by that prime example of Solomani
beefcake Rocky (aka dirt, or Earth!)
So you see, the entire film is a metaphor for the Psionic Suppressions.
The Imperium's nobles and intellectuals, experimenting with psionics,
eventually misuse that power against the "average man" (Brad and Janet,
specifically the bedroom scenes) after corrupting the Sword Worlds
(Columbia). The SW moral downfall is witnessed in the dinner scene where
Columbia finds that not only has she witnessed the death of the "Terran
Revolutionary Ideal" (Eddie) to which she professed such devotion, but has
helped to destroy it. And all along, the Zhodani watch, waiting their
chance to act...
And what of the floor show? What indeed! In the floor show, the diverse
elements of the Imperium come together in an alchemicical orgy. No longer
divided, they merge as one unit, the UberMan! Even Dr. Scott (the
Templar.. he introduced Brad and Janet, and his true natures are hidden)
returns to the fold. And that's when the perfidious Zhodani strike!
The Criminologist? Yaskodray.. "lost in time, and lost in space, and
meaning." Whiling away the eons, he must have found the entire episode
amusing.
<blink>
I have *got* to stop reading Suppressed Transmission all night at work...
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"There is no emoticon to express how I feel!"
- -Comic Shop Guy, "The Simpsons"
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:59:34 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
> > Sauron was a Vilani?
>
> Vilani are orcs?
Orcs... in... spaaaace!!!!!!!!
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:10:23 -0500
From: "James Fleming" <blackjack@pil.net>
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
Well, if anyone has been appointed yet as Keeper of the Keyboard Kills,
they'll have to give another to Mr. Hite...er, Mr. Berry.
Cheers,
Jim Fleming
Doug Berry writes:
: <RHPS-nit> The actual line is:
:
: JANET: This isn't the Junior Chamber of Commerce, Brad.
:
: BRAD: They're probably foreigners with ways different than our own. They
: may do some more... folk dancing.
:
: JANET: Look, I'm cold, I'm wet, and I'm just plain scared!
:
: BRAD: I'm here - there's nothing to worry about.
:
: JANET: (Screams & faints)
:
: <RHPS-nit>
:
: And on that note.. ever notice that Riff-Raff and Magenta are actually
: Taverchedle' agents? Truth!
:
: 1. They never speak to each other, until the very end of the film.
: Telepathy!
:
: 2. They bring down Frank-N-Furtur for having "too extreme" a lifestyle.
:
: 3. Magenta's releasing of "the Dogs" is symbolic of the Outworld
: Coalition's attacks on the combined might of the Imperium's mind (Vilani)
: and physical strength represented by that prime example of Solomani
: beefcake Rocky (aka dirt, or Earth!)
:
: So you see, the entire film is a metaphor for the Psionic Suppressions.
: The Imperium's nobles and intellectuals, experimenting with psionics,
: eventually misuse that power against the "average man" (Brad and Janet,
: specifically the bedroom scenes) after corrupting the Sword Worlds
: (Columbia). The SW moral downfall is witnessed in the dinner scene where
: Columbia finds that not only has she witnessed the death of the "Terran
: Revolutionary Ideal" (Eddie) to which she professed such devotion, but has
: helped to destroy it. And all along, the Zhodani watch, waiting their
: chance to act...
:
: And what of the floor show? What indeed! In the floor show, the diverse
: elements of the Imperium come together in an alchemicical orgy. No longer
: divided, they merge as one unit, the UberMan! Even Dr. Scott (the
: Templar.. he introduced Brad and Janet, and his true natures are hidden)
: returns to the fold. And that's when the perfidious Zhodani strike!
:
: The Criminologist? Yaskodray.. "lost in time, and lost in space, and
: meaning." Whiling away the eons, he must have found the entire episode
: amusing.
:
: <blink>
:
: I have *got* to stop reading Suppressed Transmission all night at work...
: --
:
: Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
: http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
:
: "There is no emoticon to express how I feel!"
: -Comic Shop Guy, "The Simpsons"
:
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:01:14 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
LOL!! XXL please, just to make sure it'll fit. While I'm currently loosing
weight due to (slightly) better diet and near abstinence from Beer, it's
only been a month and a half. I have dropped a jean size though! Whee!
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of D. Smart
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 5:33 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
>
>
> Jesse DeGraff gifted us with:
> >
> > Go to my news page from my site:
> >
> > http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
> >
> > They are NOT in the gallery, you have to go from the news page
> ('cause I'm
> > too lazy ;)
> >
> > Best,
> > Jesse
>
> DANG, Jesse! You always give us your best.
>
> BTW, Happy Birthday!
>
> The scout is awesome. That shade of red really looks eerie.
>
> As for the corsair..oh BAYbee!
>
> Both just joined my Jesse DeGraff collection of Traveller
> art.
>
> Hmmm..I wonder if my inkjet printer can make a T-shirt
> ironable.
> If so, you just earned one.
>
> David Smart
> (one of the original Jesse fans)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:11:38
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
At 07:16 PM 2/11/2001 PST, you wrote:
>BTW, just out of curiosity, what does a training mine do when you set
>it off?
It explodes. A little. A loud *BANG* and a lot of smoke.
>> Oh, and clearing mines has to be one of the nastiest, slowest, most
>> nerve-wracking things an infantryman is called upon to do.
>
>There are times when I regret having such a good imagination... <shudder>
Picture this. Your unit has come across a wire road barrier. Triple coils
of razor wire tied off with hastily impanted stakes. The "road" is much
more than a dirt trail. Your unit has been assigned to clear this road for
supply traffic.
You, Private Erickson, will take off all metal equipment. This includes
your helmet (if wearing a steel pot), weapon, ammo, mess kit, etc., and
start about 50 meters from the obstacle, take sharp stick, go prone, and
carefully slide the stick into the dirt, feeling for obstuctions. If there
are none. you move 6" over and do it again. Once you have covered the
width of the road, you inch forward and start probing again, about 6"
closer. The sun is pounding down on you, your arms and shoulders are
screaming balls of pain, and you are convinced that every OPFOR weapon in
existence is pointed right at you.
If you do encounter an obstruction, you mark it. It may be a rock. It may
be a landmine, or it might just be a pressure plate that you've just armed.
Lots of fun, hey?
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:02:44 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
When I can! Right now I'm working on something like 4 more covers that SJG
wants by the end of February. That's not counting the total of three I
completed (or will later today) over the weekend :)~
Jesse
> These are truly inspiring designs, if you ever have the time, more please.
>
> Antony
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 07:58:02 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
LOL!!! Derek Stanley mentioned a series of ships in his TU named after the
9 ringwraiths, and using the Tokien version of the flaming eye :)
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jens 'Spacejens'
> Rydholm
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 2:32 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
>
>
> Dave DeGraff wrote:
> > They are NOT in the gallery, you have to go from the news page
> ('cause I'm
> > too lazy ;)
>
> I looked at the ship and thought 'Sauron'...
>
> * Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
> | jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
> | ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
> * http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:28:00 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Deep space refuelling
Dean Jones wrote:
> True...I remember being horrified at one point during a episode
> of Voyager when a wall panel explodes and I absent-mindedly
> muttered to myself 'That'll be a blown plasma conduit'. I was
> right. :(
Well, duh! We all know how bad Voyager's EPS manifold is, plasma
conduit blow-outs are bound to happen. To be fair Voyager was
one of the first Intripid class and had just been lauched ... it
takes a while to get all the bugs out. (Do I sound sad or what!)
> Yeah...there was some handwave or other explaining that in TNG,
> but I don't remmeber it.
IIRC, the TNG episode had all the races on a spiral line seeded
by an ancient race. All those races were bipedal humanoids. The
DNA had also been modified such that if you took a sample from
each race you could reconstruct a hidden message. But it just
turned out to be a "Hello World!" message.
> I think in one episode of the original series there was an
> intelligent, non-humanoid alien. Sadly, it was so ugly it had
> to kept in a box :)
Yup, that's right: the Federation are racist! Any alien that's
not a humanoid is confined to a box so as not to upset any
humanoid's sensibilities. They also have to sit at the back of
the bus and are not allowed to use public drinking fountains.
You can be blue, have a pasty on the head, or a funny nose, and
that's okay ... but be non-humanoid and you suffer the Federation
aparthid.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:24:51 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
Lots of good info to mine in there :) Think I'll keep that handy for G:T
Corsairs ;)
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jonathan McDermott
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 6:24 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re:[TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye
> question....)
>
>
>
> >Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:56:24 -0800
> >From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
> >Subject: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....
> >
> >Don't have time to check my books, and need to know this.
> >
> >Isn't the Flaming Eye the Vilani equivalent of the Solomani Skulls &
> >Crossbones? I've got a pic of the Eye on a Vargr ship, but I
> coulda' sworn
> >I'd read that it was a Vilani symbol. Maybe the Vargr ship was
> f#@%ing with
> >the Vilani? ;)
> >
> >Thanks!!!!
> >Jesse
>
> Jesse,
>
> Don't know if you can really use that. The only indication I've
> seen that
> the Flaming Eye is a pirates' symbol (a la the Jolly Roger (or
> the hundreds
> other pirate flags that were in use, including John Rackham's skull and
> cutlasses)) was in the Starship Operator's Manual by DGP. That
> may or may
> not be canon verboten. It was, however, Vilani. I would say the Vargr
> crew of that corsair had learned that such a symbol would be immediately
> recognizable to their usual prey.
>
> You could, of course, develop your own symbols without breaching
> canon too
> much at all. Historical pirates typically used whatever symbols they
> wanted, including those of death (skulls, crossbones, bleeding hearts)
> weapons (swords and pistols) and time (hourglass, clock). Edward Teach,
> aka Blackbeard, had as his flag a skeleton with a scythe holding
> a bleeding
> heart and an hourglass, I believe. As noted above, John Rackham's was a
> skull and crossed cutlasses; you can see an example of this in the movie
> _Cutthroat_Island._
>
> Possible origin of the flaming eye: essentially, 'We see you, and we're
> coming to get you like a firey meteor. You can't hide from us.' That
> seems to be in keeping with how space pirates might need to act
> in OTU; it
> would not seem to be a symbol from maritime pirates.
>
> Other possible Vilani pirate symbols: a comet, an exploding sun, bird of
> prey talons, flaming talons, talons grasping a weapon. Any symbiology
> reflecting "we see you," "we're coming to get you faster than the
> constabulary can come to save you," and "give up NOW."
>
> Contrast this to Earth maritime pirate symbols: "we can kill you,"
> (weapons) "we can make your life extremely unpleasant," (skulls, bleeding
> hearts) "time is running out for you" (hourglasses.) A Solomani-Vilani
> mixed pirate crew might come up with, as their symbol, a flaming skull in
> profile, or talons grasping crossed bones.
>
> This is all speculation on my part, but the symbols used by
> pirates can be
> a study in heraldry all to itself, sometimes. =) Sorry for going
> off on a
> tangent, here; piracy -- not only in Traveller but in history -- is a
> subject I'm very interested in. =)
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:25:56 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
ROFLMAO!!!!!
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Paul Drye
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 6:38 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re:[TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye
> question....)
>
>
> >Other possible Vilani pirate symbols: a comet, an exploding sun, bird of
> >prey talons, flaming talons, talons grasping a weapon. Any symbiology
> >reflecting "we see you," "we're coming to get you faster than the
> >constabulary can come to save you," and "give up NOW."
>
> Or the really frightening thing: a giant beetle, holding up a sheaf of
> governmental forms. It means "We're Vilani. Give us what we want or we'll
> make your life a Kafka-esque bureaucratic nightmare."
>
> Cheers,
> Paul Drye
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:26:58 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: [TML] Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
If I can ever get to updating my site for REAL, you'll love what I've got in
store >;)
Jesse
> *bounces up and down with glee* Woohooo! It looks great, Jesse! Nice
> placement of the Flaming Eye, too! Thank you! =)
>
> (Yes... as you've seen by now I'm a huge fan of that class of
> ship. =) Too
> bad it's not really feasible for a Type P to really waltz up,
> haul a Type S
> in it's bay, and run off. Now THAT'S piracy! ;)
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:29:42 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
It's like Dick Marcinko saying "Yes Sir" to a superior he doesn't respect,
only in his mind and inflection (that's lost on the superior), he's spelling
it "Yes Cur" :)
Jesse
> If I wanted to insult the members of the list via e-mail (a Very Bad
> Idea proably resulting in my being unsubscribed) I would drop the polite
> form of address. Do you understand that, Rowse? ;)
>
>
> Larsen
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:41:59 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Deep space refuelling
Dean Jones wrote:
> Always struck me as odd that the Station was called Deep Space
> Nine, anyhow. Bajor is only a couple of hours away in a sublight
> shuttle, so the station is surely within the Bajoran system?
> Perhaps the name of the system reveals some Federation chauvinism
> in regarding non-member world as being out in the wilderness?
Actually it was in orbit around Bajor but they moved it to near
the wormhole in the pilot episode (when they found the wormhole.)
The station was built by the Cardassians during their occupation
of Bajor, and they called it Terrak Noir (sp?). Bajor is on the
Federation border ... it was the 9th deep space station acquired
and the Bajorans seem happy with any name that doesn't remind
them of the occupation (so they use the Federation *designation*
rather than the Cardassian *name*).
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:46:49 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Landgrab! Regina/ Forboldn, Knorbes, and Whanga
I'll hope you'll pass along the data for http://www.spinwardmarches.com.
Tod
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
To: <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Cc: "Traveller Mailing List (E-mail)" <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 8:59 PM
Subject: Landgrab! Regina/ Forboldn, Knorbes, and Whanga
> Actually, I'd like to lay claim to all three worlds, if nobody minds. I'll
> have the first draft of the webpage for them posted within the next 2
weeks.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> >------------------------------
> >
> >Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:32:51 -0500
> >From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
> >Subject: Re: Landgrab Question
> >
> >No one has claimed any of these. Which would you like?
> >
> >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<><~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >Colin Michael, ct@downport.com
> >www.Downport.com - "Traveller Web Portal"
>
> >> Forboldn (Regina/SM 0208-E893614-4)
> >> Knorbes (Regina/SM 0207-E888787-2)
> >> Whanga (Regina/SM 206-E676126-7)
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:46:50 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
"You, Private Erickson, will take off all metal equipment. This includes
your helmet (if wearing a steel pot), weapon, ammo, mess kit, etc., and
start about 50 meters from the obstacle, take sharp stick, go prone, and
carefully slide the stick into the dirt, feeling for obstuctions. If there
are none. you move 6" over and do it again. Once you have covered the width
of the road, you inch forward and start probing again, about 6"
closer. The sun is pounding down on you, your arms and shoulders are
screaming balls of pain, and you are convinced that every OPFOR weapon in
existence is pointed right at you."
"If you do encounter an obstruction, you mark it. It may be a rock. It may
be a landmine, or it might just be a pressure plate that you've just armed."
Ugh! <shudder> Makes me glad I was a swabbie. Of course, standing
around in a metal box filled with pressurized steam pipes, below the
waterline, with bunker-c behind one bulkhead and a reactor behind another,
while waiting to see if the ops and weapons boys will manage to SAM all
those Volkswagon-sized, Soviet cruise missiles might not be fun either.
I actually flipped a coin between Navy nuc propulsion and Army helo
school. If the sgt had just pointed out I'd be a warrant officer after his
school, rather than a blue shirt after the Navy's, I'd have told the squid
to shove off and joined the Big Green Machine instead.
Larsen the Sailor Man
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:54:02 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
> I'm suggesting this so the bacteria are a little harder to use and
can
> be turned "off". Otherwise, anyone with a sample could add them to an
> opponnet's ship's air ducts, wait a certain amount of time, and board it
> without trouble. The bacteria would have dined on all the small arms
> ammunition during the wait.
I be carefull about this one. A lot of ammunition (almost all military
ammunition) is sealed to protect it from the environment. Bacteria won't be
able to eat what they can't get to. Border could be in for a rude shock if
they try this one.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:55:58 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
See Citizens of the TML at http://www.downport.com
Tod
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 4:58 AM
Subject: Muppet Strikes Again.
> Hiya peeps,
> I have noticed that "Larsen E. Whipsnade" keeps calling everybody 'Mr'
> <surname> when addressing people; two thoughts spring to mind...
>
> Does this mean he considers everyone else on the list to be more 'worthy'
of
> respect than himself? Or...
>
> I've heard rumours that certain groups use the term 'Mr' as an insult (as
> in, "You really don't want to open that door, Mr Jones." when what they
> really mean is "You can't really be that dumb, can you Major?!") - could
it
> be that he's insulting people?
>
> ObTrav (OBligatory TRAVeller reference) - someone uses a term as a mark of
> respect and the 'receiver' takes it as an insult... "Careful Janet, these
> people are foreigners and may have customs different from our own."
>
> On a totally different topic (and following from my question last week ref
> proximity to radar systems), has anyone ever compiled a "Who's Who" of the
> TML? Perhaps "Who's What" would be a better term - a list of who does
what,
> and therefore who might be able to help with a particular topic or
problem -
> I count myself *very* lucky to be a member of a group that has members
with
> such a wide-ranging spread of knowledge (even those who work for EDS)...
>
> Jeff.
> (Oh, I work for CSC ;-)
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:59:47 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
> That would be a very useful list indeed. Include physical location,
> occupation, active campaigns, martial status...
^^^^^^^^^
Dare I ask. I'm not sure TML members should be interbreeding.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:03:13 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
> Actually, for blasting, one "simple" alternative (for cases where you
> place the charge right before the blast) is to pack the hole with
> cotton, and pour in LOX. This is used in some coal mines and works
> *quite* well. They like it because neither component is likely to
> explode on its own while being transported (though a LOX spill in a
> coal mine wouldn't be fun).
Well, cost is the major concern in commercial blasting. This is why ANFO is
the most common commercial explosive used--it's cheap. It's also stable and
can be made in slurries that are easy to pump into hard to get places.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:02:30 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
"Lots of good info to mine in there :) Think I'll keep that handy for G:T
Corsairs ;)"
Mr. DeGraff,
Just the chance to very slightly assist with the creation and
publication of a book like "G:T Corsairs" leads me to bother you.
There's an excellent book from the last, great period of Carribean
piracy written by Daniel Dafoe (Robinson Crusoe) about the pirates of that
era. It's still considered by historians to be one of the best references
on the "trade". I read it a number of years ago and still see it listed as
a reference in several other works.
The title is one of those goofy, multi-sentenced, early 1700's one
going something like "A True History of Pyrates Involving Their... blah,
blah, blah". I think it's usually shortened to "A True History of Pyrates"
with the archaic "y" spelling.
Your librarian could point you to it. Also, the contents of Mr.
McDermott's post seems to imply he's read it, especially the details about
pirate flags. So perhaps, he can give you more accurate and much better
information than I.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3647
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3648
Date: | 2/12/01 10:52:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Monday, February 12 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3648
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
Re: Ignoring Canon and other thoughts
Tom Clancy
Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3646
RE: Anti-RPG
RE: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
Re: Planetary Maps
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3646
Re: Planetary Maps
RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye
Landmine clearing...
Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
SpinwardMarches.com status report
Re: Vilani Ship Names?
Fwd: Traveller-digest V1999 #3647
Marava
Re: Landmine clearing...
RE: Boing
RE: Rio (Was: More landgrab info)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:11:12 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
>Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 08:24:51 -0800
>From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
>Subject: RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
>
>Lots of good info to mine in there :)
You're welcome! =) Feel free....
>Think I'll keep that handy for G:T
>Corsairs ;)
Oh, evil temptation! =)
>Jesse
>
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jonathan McDermott
> > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 6:24 AM
> > To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> > Subject: Re:[TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye
> > question....)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:30:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Ignoring Canon and other thoughts
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
> As usual, very good points. How many systems in the Imperium as a
> whole trade with others 1 parsec away?
Almost all the ones with any detectable trade. Whether or not they are
major trade partners depends on the size of the worlds; as I recall, Rhylanor
and Porozlo do more trade with each other than with everyone else put together.
> portions of the Core region have a few? Or, how many systems that trade
> are 2 parsecs apart, with a "worthless" (that is a system only used for
> it's fuel resources) between them?
Such systems would run J2 traders.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:34:54
From: "Gary Miles" <garyglennmiles@hotmail.com>
Subject: Tom Clancy
Andy Wrote:
>There's nothing 'mere' about chemical or biological weapons. Note the
>reaction of the East German chancellor in Clancy's Red Storm Rising to the
>proposal to use chemical weapons in the offensive on NATO (I know, it's a
>work of fiction - but isn't Clancy supposed to be thorough in his
>research?)
I used to think so, but having been in the U.S. Coast Guard for 4.5 years, I
was appalled by the numerous inaccuracies relating to the Coast Guard in
CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER.
Gary
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:36:57 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
>Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:02:30 -0000
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
>
>From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
>"Lots of good info to mine in there :) Think I'll keep that handy for G:T
>Corsairs ;)"
>
>Mr. DeGraff,
> Just the chance to very slightly assist with the creation and
>publication of a book like "G:T Corsairs" leads me to bother you.
> There's an excellent book from the last, great period of Carribean
>piracy written by Daniel Dafoe (Robinson Crusoe) about the pirates of that
>era. It's still considered by historians to be one of the best references
>on the "trade". I read it a number of years ago and still see it listed as
>a reference in several other works.
> The title is one of those goofy, multi-sentenced, early 1700's one
>going something like "A True History of Pyrates Involving Their... blah,
>blah, blah". I think it's usually shortened to "A True History of Pyrates"
>with the archaic "y" spelling.
> Your librarian could point you to it. Also, the contents of Mr.
>McDermott's post seems to imply he's read it, especially the details about
>pirate flags. So perhaps, he can give you more accurate and much better
>information than I.
>
>
> Larsen
That particular book has been oddly elusive to me. That, or oddly
expensive! facsimilies of original, older work tends to be kind of
costly. There are a number of alternate ones that I've found,
though. Probably one of the better ones is 'Under The Black Flag,' though
I'm not sure who the author is right now. Another resource is the
re-enactment groups that are out there; http://www.noquartergiven.com is a
good place to start for that!
It also helps to be part of a re-enactment group. =)
The only trouble would be that there's so much information about Terran
maritime pirates that it wouldn't map too well over to mostly Vilani,
Vilani-tradition space pirates. There are certainly parallels, and one can
extrapolate from there. Things like motivations for becoming a pirate,
symbols, and lifestyles would be pretty well universal. Methodologies
would be different, though, and would be influenced in a very strong way by
technology. (How close do you have to be to have your nuclear dampers shut
down the other guy's powerplant? Would a variant of nuc. damper tech be
able to 'dampen' M-drives, as canon-destroying as that would be? What TL
is the jump damper mentioned in MegaTraveller? How the heck DO you use
starship weapons to foce a ship to strike her colors, without blowing it
all to pieces in the process? I'm not trying to start a debate here,
honest! (see below))
Modern pirates no longer use major warships to ply their trade; there is no
'type P4' based off of the old type C4 cargo ship, for example. The South
China Sea (which had a wonderful history of piracy, once upon a time, and
had the indomitable Mrs. Zheng, who at one point was admiral of well over a
thousand pirate ships, and was so powerful the Ch'in government paid her
tribute, and made her their Admiral) has problems with piracy, but they're
closer to shipjackers than pirates. They use small motorboats and
automatic rifles, and tend to be extremely vicious, leaving nobody
alive. (There might very well be pirates who use similar tactics in the
3I, using launches and armed pinnaces, though some unusual circumstances
would have to exist to enable them to dock with and board a non-disabled
vessel.)
So, the modern examples of piracy are motorboat-riding shipjackers. We
have relatively little information about modern and 'classic' pirates,
compared to accounts of piracy that the Vilani must have, and not all of it
maps well to space piracy. I'm not going to go further, because that just
opens the Ethically-Challenged Merchant debate, and I don't think that's on
the schedule yet. ;)
I will say, though, that I would be EXTREMELY interested in G:T Corsairs.
;) Gosh... now that I think about it, how does one go about proposing such
a thing to SJG and Loren, if it hasn't already? And would this even be
something that people would want to see besides a handful of Trav players?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:37:49 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3646
>I remember being horrified at one point during a episode of Voyager
> when a wall panel explodes and I absent-mindedly muttered to myself
'That'll
> be a blown plasma conduit'. I was right. :(
>
> >P.S. I do always get a laugh about how all of Trek's aliens
> >are upright
> >bipeds with different bits of plumbing supplies glued to their faces.
>
It always baffled me that in ships with artifical gravity you could still
fall down an elevator shaft.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:40:31 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
Terry Carlino writes:
>>"Ah, now there is a contradiction. Think about what you just said for
>>a moment. A "tested (and proven) scientific theory". Last I checked if
>>something is proven it's not a theory.
><snipped>
>
> Check again.
>
> First, the amount of evidence for or against something has no
> bearing at all on whether or not it is considered a theory in
> science. There are theories with lots of evidence (cell theory,
> evolutionary theory, atomic theory), and there are others with
> less evidence (gremlin theory, astological theory). No doubt,
> there are many who would dissagree as to which theories enjoy
> lots of evidence and which do not, but the point here is that
> such evidence is irrelevent to the status of "theory."
>
> Second, nothing in science is ever considered "proven." No
> hypothesis, no theory, no fact. I like Stephen J. Gould's
> definition of a fact: "An hypothesis confirmed to such a
> degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional
> consent."
>
>Peez
I don't know who you're quoting, but it isn't me. I'm well aware of the
difference between the word "theory" as used in formal scientific language
and "theory" as used in the vernacular. As a matter of fact other than
request a citation for a Biblical reference (which I wanted for reference
purposes) I haven't posted to this thread at all.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:48:26 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
Thanks Bill,
Ill make sure that that i use that now on 8)
Hasta
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: Bill Rutherford [mailto:worj@home.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 07, 2001 8:15 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: What does "OBTrav:" mean?
Bill,
I'm SURE somebody will put this on the list; I don't want to waste
bandwidth... OBTRAV denotes the obligatory traveller reference; all
messages on the TML are supposed to be Traveller-related; the OBTRAV
provides that connection... ;*)
- - Bill
At 03:59 PM 2/7/01 -0800, you wrote:
>I keep seeing this and wonder what it means. thanks in advance
>
>Bill
Bill Rutherford
worj@home.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:08:58 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Maps
I'll have to see if there's an export filter in Illustrator
Tod
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Leonard Erickson" <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 6:58 PM
Subject: Re: Planetary Maps
> In mail you write:
>
> > I ended up building my own hex map in Illustrator since I wanted a
> > transparent overlay, and also prefer vector graphics since they resize
> > better.
>
> Which Vector formats do you have it in? Can you produce it in HPGL
> (I've got a CAD program that will *import* HPGL!)
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:09:58 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3646
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
"It always baffled me that in ships with artifical gravity you could
still fall down an elevator shaft."
LOL! I once saw a bit off an episode my nephew was watching, while I
was reading. It involved two of the crew, Levar Burton of "Roots", with a
hair comb glued across his eyes, and Michelle Phillips, of "Homicide" with
some plumbing supplies glued on her nose.(two good actors, what the hell
were they doing in a ST episode?) They were turned into some sort of
"ghosts". They couldn't be seen, could walk thru walls, etc. There was
some sort of "bad" alien who was a "ghost" too. They got rid of him by
tricking him into running through a wall that also happened to be the ship's
outer hull.
The nephew immediately turned to me and asked, if they could walk
through walls, why didn't they fall through the floor? The rest of the
episode played on unwatched while we had a discussion about "poetic
license". All in all, my nephew had a much better afternoon once he started
asking questions and stopped watching Trek. A fact true about most
television.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:11:39 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Maps
I've got some really nice sector and subsector maps courtesy of Jimmy
Simpson. I'm looking for the world map (orange peel) map.
BTW, remember the old Spinward Marches map in the Deluxe edition. We have
an Illustrator version just about ready. If you have Illustrator, I could
use another pair of eyeball to proof read it.
Tod
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Dominic Mooney" <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 6:06 PM
Subject: Re: Planetary Maps
> At 20:21 -0500 11/2/01, Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
wrote:
> >But none that my macintosh will recognize.
> >:(
>
> I should have (MacOS) AI 7 format or EPS subsector (possibly) and
> sector (definitely) maps that Andy Akins sent me. Do you want me to
> mail you it?
>
> Dom
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:30:04 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye
Check out
http://www.sjgames.com/general/author/wish.html
and also the Author Solicitation page to see what would be required. If
you've any questions, just drop Loren an e-mail to both lkw@io.com and
gdwgames@aol.com.
Jesse
I will say, though, that I would be EXTREMELY interested in G:T Corsairs.
;) Gosh... now that I think about it, how does one go about proposing such
a thing to SJG and Loren, if it hasn't already? And would this even be
something that people would want to see besides a handful of Trav players?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:26:35 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Landmine clearing...
Doug. Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
>Picture this. Your unit has come across a wire road barrier. Triple coils
>of razor wire tied off with hastily impanted stakes. The "road" is much
>more than a dirt trail. Your unit has been assigned to clear this road for
>supply traffic.
>
>You, Private Erickson, will take off all metal equipment. This includes
>your helmet (if wearing a steel pot), weapon, ammo, mess kit, etc., and
>start about 50 meters from the obstacle, take sharp stick, go prone, and
>carefully slide the stick into the dirt, feeling for obstuctions. If there
>are none. you move 6" over and do it again. Once you have covered the
>width of the road, you inch forward and start probing again, about 6"
>closer. The sun is pounding down on you, your arms and shoulders are
>screaming balls of pain, and you are convinced that every OPFOR weapon in
>existence is pointed right at you.
>
>If you do encounter an obstruction, you mark it. It may be a rock. It may
>be a landmine, or it might just be a pressure plate that you've just armed.
>
>Lots of fun, hey?
This is why the Antipersonnel Obstacle Breaching System (APOBS), aka
"Rattlesnake" was developed. Designed to replace the Bangalore Torpedo,
it's a 130 lb., man-portable (well, 2-man actually) rocket propelled, explosive
line charge system capable of rapidly and safely breaching a footpath
through complex obstacles containing antipersonnel mines and multi-strand
wire. Deployable in under 2 minutes, it produces a 3 meter wide by 45 meter
long cleared path.
There is also a larger, vehicle-mounted version called the M58A4 Mine-
Clearing Line Charge (MICLIC), a rocket-propelled explosive line charge
which basically blasts a vehicle width lane through a minefield.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:34:22 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
"That particular book has been oddly elusive to me. That, or oddly
expensive! facsimilies of original, older work tends to be kind of
costly to start for that!"
I remember reading it in the mid to late 70's after finding a copy in
the Providence Public Library's main branch. Here in Rhode Island, all of
our libraries, even at the college level, honor a single library card. I'm
sure other areas must have similar systems.
The book was a modern reprint; spelling fixed up, footnotes to explain
some textual references, and so forth. I don't remember the publisher or
date, but it couldn't have been much earlier than the 20's or 30's,
otherwise it would have stuck in my mind.
I re-read it three times and checked it out again when a friend picked
up a copy of a RPG loosely based on the "Three Musketeers".
"They use small motorboats and automatic rifles, and tend to be
extremely vicious, leaving nobody alive."
My friends in the merchant marine speak about these new pirates. They
get aboard, then rob and terrorize the crew, forcing the master to open
safes at gun point and so forth. There have been examples of entire ship's
being seized, the crew disposed of, and sailed away. There was an article
in the "Economist" last year detailing this. The ship's and cargos
eventually end up in any of a number of southern Chinese ports.
The pirates have obviously paid off the locals to ignore this. In
fact, some of the vessels are bought and used in Chinese shipping firms. Of
course, piracy is an ancient way of life in that part of the world. The
Ming dynasty even hired the Dutch to eradicate a pirate "kingdom" based on
Taiwan.(Taiwan has NOT been of mainland China for thousands of years. It
hosts it's own ethnic group and dialects. China has occassionally exerted
itself to conquer it, only to let it fall away during the years of dynastic
troubles. During the last century Taiwan, "belonged" to China between '45
and '49.)
The "Economist" spoke about a anti-piracy device being discussed in
shipping circles. Sort of a maritime "lo-jack" it could be hidden aboard
and send daily positioning fixes to satellites.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:39:59 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: SpinwardMarches.com status report
Work continues apace at spinwardmarches.comhttp://www.spinwardmarches.com.
The what's new script is in place, with links to any page changed in the
last 7 days.
(take a look at this to see how much has been done)
Currently, I'm putting placeholder for every 'landgrabbed' planet.
All subsector maps are in place.
Subsector data is complete for the following subsectors:
Cronor, Jewell, Regina, Aramis, Querion, Vilis and Lanth.
There are placeholders for every landgrabbed world in these subsectors.
Available data has been posted for the following worlds:
Regina, Heya, Moughas
More to follow.
There are plenty of worlds left, and you can download templated from
spinwardmarches.com.
If you are a landgrabber and your world details are not on Downport
http://www.downport.com/landgrab,
please send me a copy of whatever you have for inclusion.
Thanks,
Tod
- ----
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
- ----
Tod Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.travellerguns.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:40 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Vilani Ship Names?
In-Reply-To: <10211.134107.4j5.rnr.w165w@krypton.rain.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
For syllabaric languages, a fun one is Cherokee.
Even if you stick with alphabetic ones, you can play around with the
phonetics. Welsh is a totally phonetic language - only the actual phonemes
are different from English ones!
Hugs and kisses
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:35:14 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Fwd: Traveller-digest V1999 #3647
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> > Actually, for blasting, one "simple" alternative (for cases where you
> > place the charge right before the blast) is to pack the hole with
> > cotton, and pour in LOX. This is used in some coal mines and works
> > *quite* well. They like it because neither component is likely to
> > explode on its own while being transported (though a LOX spill in a
> > coal mine wouldn't be fun).
>
>Well, cost is the major concern in commercial blasting. This is why ANFO is
>the most common commercial explosive used--it's cheap. It's also stable and
>can be made in slurries that are easy to pump into hard to get places.
Very true. Ammonium Nitrate cost about 30 cents per pound vs. dynamite, which
costs about 2 dollars per pound. Also, even if not slurried, fertilizer can
be poured
into drill holes (as a course powder), as opposed to dynamite, which needs
to be
tamped to be properly placed.
The only down side (and it's a minor one) is that fertilizer and modern
slurries
require a more complex "initiator" than dynamite. I simple blasting cap is
sufficient to fire dynamite. ANFO (et.al.) requires not only the cap, but
a small
"trigger charge" of secondary explosive, as the cap alone is not guaranteed to
set of the main charge (insufficient shock.)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:42:23 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Marava
How far back does the Empress Marava design go? Did GDW ever make a canon
statement on when it was first laid down, etc.?
Please answer via e-mail to lkw@io.com and gdwgames@aol.com
Loren Wiseman
Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society http://jtas.sjgames.com/
SJ Games
lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
(512) 447-7866 VOX
(512) 447-1144 FAX
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:44:56 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Landmine clearing...
> This is why the Antipersonnel Obstacle Breaching System (APOBS), aka
> "Rattlesnake" was developed. Designed to replace the Bangalore Torpedo,
> it's a 130 lb., man-portable (well, 2-man actually) rocket propelled,
explosive
> line charge system capable of rapidly and safely breaching a footpath
> through complex obstacles containing antipersonnel mines and multi-strand
> wire. Deployable in under 2 minutes, it produces a 3 meter wide by 45
meter
> long cleared path.
You and I thought the same thing. See:
http://mcdweb.pica.army.mil/apobs.html
>
> There is also a larger, vehicle-mounted version called the M58A4 Mine-
> Clearing Line Charge (MICLIC), a rocket-propelled explosive line charge
> which basically blasts a vehicle width lane through a minefield.
>
> - Mark C.
There's a link on the Mercenary's Guide to Weapons for PM-MCD
(Product Manager, mines. counter-mines and demolitions. )
Visit: http://mcdweb.pica.army.mil
Very interesting site.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:33:07 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Boing
At 23:33 -0500 11/2/01, "Douglas E. Berry"
<gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
>At 06:09 PM 2/11/2001 +0000, you wrote:
> >Actually, perhaps we should really avoid confusion and call all of
> >the Daves 'Bruce'?
>
>The Three Bruces, Defenders of Unix Systems extraordinare, would probably
>take exception.
Nah, I think that Monty Python has first dibs on the Bruces' thing.
They obviously thought that it was open-source! ;-)
>Yes, Bay Area fandom gets odd.
Delete 'Bay Area' in that sentence.
;-)
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:48:40 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Rio (Was: More landgrab info)
Hans this is great thanks.
yes i would love your time line if you dont mind could you send it to me at
wlane@asera.com
thanks a Million
I got a lot of ideas for the planet intself but i want to tie it all into as
much canonical stuff as possable.
Ill see about getting first in.
thanks Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen [mailto:rancke@diku.dk]
Sent: Friday, February 09, 2001 12:15 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Rio (Was: More landgrab info)
William Lane writes:
>Ok First I definatly want to do Rio in the Chronor Sector so if someone
>could set me up for it i would really appreciate it.
>
>Second I am using CT rules for the creation of this world. I see some are
>using other sets of rules or something because I see classifications i ahve
>never seen
>
>Ex class C/III starport
>
>is there a Problem using just CT rules for the creation of this system?
Not as far as I am concerned, but _GT:First In_ does have some superb rules.
I
find that using a mixture of _First In_ and _World Builders' Handbook_
produces
better results than using either by itself.
Using CT rules alone does have the problem that you sometimes get impossible
results (world size vs. atmosphere etc.).
>Also I would like a complete history of the Imperium...
Wouldn't we all.
>...and specifically the Spinward Marches.
>
>Where can i get this.
I'm working on it, but it won't be finished for a while yet ;-). Meanwhile I
can
send you my file of canonical dates for the Spinward Marches. It's too long
to
post here. Let me know if you want it.
However, I think it will be all right to post my file on Rio:
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
System: Rio
Subsector: Cronor
Sector: Spinward Marches - Classic Era
Coordinates: 0301 (A0301)
UWP: C686648-8
Starport: Routine
Size: Medium (10,000 km)
Atmosphere: Dense
Hydrographics: 62% water
Population: 2,000,000
Govt: Representative democracy
Law Level: High
Technology: Pre-Stellar
Bases: None
Trade Codes: Ag Ni Ri Tp
Travel Zone: Green
Planetoid Belts: 0
Gas Giants: 1
Allegiance: Non-aligned
Stars: M1 V M0 D
Rio is settled between 400 and 500 [TA:15]. It is part of the Imperium by
589, but becomes independent during 1FW and remains independent until
sometime between 1122 and 1202 where it becomes a Zhodani client state.
[SMC:14-15 & RS:36]
0301 Rio (Independent)
Starport: Class III
Diameter: 6,215 miles (10,000 km). Atmosphere: Dense oxygen-nitrogen.
Surface Water: 62%. Climate: Cold. Population: 1,100,000,000. Government:
Representative democracy. Control Rating: 4. TL: 8.
Rio was first colonized by humans during the Rule Of Man. The landing went
badly ,and left the settlers with no way off-world. It took hundreds of
years
for the settlers to regain past knowledge until they were contacted by the
Zhodani and the Imperials. The government of Rio has kept the planet neutral
for the past 530 years, and allows both Imperial and Zhodani vessels to use
its starport as long as all starship weapons remain covered.
1105: C686648-8/?
1107: -"-
1110: C686648-8/2
1117: -"-
1202: B686648-A/6; Interface station
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
...and my tentative history of Chronor subsector to 55 (Note that this is
not
canonical; it is, however, compatible with the canon I know of):
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
Around -300,000 the Ancients visited several of the worlds in Chronor
Subsec-
tor and left their traces on at least two of them. A group of Droyne was
left
on A0103 (Errere/Ezhfrepl) and lost their ability to caste after the
Final
War. Their descendants survive as Chirpers, though not known by that name.
One
or more Ancient sites lie hidden on A0307 (Atsa/Brefie) and won't be
found
until after 1117.
Siru Zirka scouts propably never reached this far; if they did, the
records
have been lost.
Around -2500 the Zhodani established a small research outpost on
Idrianzh
(0202). The outpost was maintained more or less continuously and other
outposts were kept, on and off, on several other worlds until around -1000,
but no permanent settlements ever took root.
Between -1370 and -1270 the Darrians of Daryen (0627) explored most of the
space for more than 20 parsecs around them, almost certainly including some
of
Cronor Subsector, but they just missed encountering the Zhodani. After that
exploration was limited to worlds closer to home. A renewed spurt of
explora-
tions begun around -930 was cut short by the MAGHIZ before it reached the
Zhodani.
During the 11th Century PI Chronor Subsector was the site of a grand Zhodani
colonization project involving numerous T-prime and T-norm planets in
Chronor
and the surrounding subsectors during which a number of indigenous species
were transplanted between the various planets. A policy change caused the
abandonment of the entire project around -1000. Since then some mining
ventures have occasionally been attempted, but they have usually failed. The
only Zhodani presense in the subsector in the Year 55 is a small mining
outfit
on Chronor.
In 50, following an incredible series of no less than 4 misjump, Morton
Stout,
an independent Imperial trader, stumbled across a Zhodani mining outpost on
Chronor. He kept the discovery secret and tried to raise money for a trade
expedition to this fantastic new market, but failed because he couldn't
convince potential investors of his not very belivable story. It would be
years before he was vindicated and recieved a spot in the history books (as
well as in the Guiness Book of Galactic Records for Most Consecutive
Misjumps
Survived).
In 52 the Imperial Scout Cruiser VASCO DA GAMA sent to explored the 1st
Qadrant found the Zhodani at Chronor. They aborted their original mission,
went to Prtzl, the nearest sizable Zhodani planet, in the Massina Subsector,
spent over a year there, and returned to Deneb in 54.
In late 55 a second expedition returned to the Marches to complete the
survey.
VITUS BERING and JOSEPH BANKS took a diplomatic mission to Prtzl and
afterwards surveyed the rest of the 1st Qadrant.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---
As you will see if you look at my notes, there are several canon conflicts
concerning Rio. According to a line in _Darrians_ in -1513 the only human
populations in the Spinward Marches was on Darrian, Vanejen, Algine and "a
few
Zhodani worlds". So when BtC says that Rio was settled during the Rule of
Man,
we get a problem, unless we assume that it is one of those Zhodani worlds at
the
time.
Next there is the star class. If Rio is settled during the RoM, when most of
the
worlds in the Marches are empty, we must assume that it was selected out of
a
number of possible worlds. Thus it should not only be a pretty nice world,
but
one of the nicest worlds in its stellar neighborhood. (Unless you prefer to
assume that the settlers had no choice because their jump drive was on the
fritz, and that one has been used so often it has green fuzz growing all
over
it). It has the potential to be a Terran-prime world, but only if it is in
the
life zone and isn't tide-locked. My suggestion would be to change the
primary to
a K1 V instead of an M1 V. In fact, if you're using CT rules only, you
_have_ to
change the star class, because by CT rules M1 class stars don't have a
suitable
orbit for a world with a breathable atmosphere.
Finally, there is the size of the population. CT canon has it as 2 million
while
BtC has it as 1.1 billion. Now, it's no secret that I consider BtC badly
broken,
but for once I'm inclined to go with what it says over previous canon. If
Rio
has been settled for 3,000 years, 2 million inhabitants is on the low side,
IMO.
Not to mention that if Rio is neutral, then either it is capable of
defending
itself, or it has some "Big Brother" that protects it. Neither of these
points
are irrefutable; life on Rio could be unusually hard and diplomatic pressure
by
the Imperium _might_ have kept the Zhodani at bay (although it hasn't
protected
several other worlds that we know of). But the total lack of correlation
between
habitability and population is one of the things that bugs me about CT world
generation, so I'd welcome a chance to up the population of a Terran-prime
world. YMMV.
Anyway, here is a suggestion for a few entries to Rio's chronology:
Settled some time between -2300 and -1700 by a group of Vilani [or other
dissidents] fleeing the Rule of Man. Lost most technology during the landing
and
spent several centuries in barbary.
Contacted by the Zhodani some time before -1513. The Zhodani set up a small
outpost (scientific, trade, mining, what?). They interacted with the locals,
but
didn't interfere much with them (Maybe the locals were nomadic or just
spread
out all over the world?).
From -1100 to -1000 the Zhodani did a lot of preparations for settling the
area.
This would include missions to Rio, but they did not have the manpower to
assimilate the locals (They may have given them some bad memories, though
;-).
Around -1000 the Zhodani abandoned their grand scheme and left Rio alone
again
(Maybe there was a second technological regression after they went away?).
Between 400 and 500 Imperials came to Rio and settled there. Rio joins the
Imperium between 500 and 589, but becomes independent again during the 1st
Frontier War and remains independent from then on.
Let me know what you think.
Hans
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3648
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From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)
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Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3648
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3649
Date: | 2/12/01 12:47:57 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, February 12 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3649
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3647
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3647
[none]
Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
[none]
Re: : Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
[none]
RE: Anti-RPG misquote
Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye [OT]
Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye [OT]
Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
Looking For...
Last Call On Rio...
Re: Black Curtain (repost)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Bloo
Landgrab site up
RE: Rob Davenports 'Boring' thoughts (was Science Fiction)
Re: Planetary Maps
Grabbing La'Belle
Milestone Achieved
Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:59:02 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3647
> The only down side (and it's a minor one) is that fertilizer and modern
> slurries
> require a more complex "initiator" than dynamite. I simple blasting cap is
> sufficient to fire dynamite. ANFO (et.al.) requires not only the cap, but
> a small
> "trigger charge" of secondary explosive, as the cap alone is not
guaranteed to
> set of the main charge (insufficient shock.)
>
> - Mark C.
The so called 'booster', which interestingly, can also be used to tenderize
beef.
My wife (the explosives expert) sent me this one:
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Beef a la Dynamite
A NEW way of tenderising meat has just one snag--it involves a hefty
explosion.
Most people tenderise meat with a culinary hammer, bashing it repeatedly to
break down muscle fibres. Or you can add meat-tenderising powder, which
contains an enzyme that digests muscle fibre and connective tissue. But how
do you tenderise meat on an industrial scale?
Researchers at the US Agricultural Research Service in Beltsville, Maryland,
think they have an answer. They have been blasting meat with water at
explosive pressures. And they have found their process also kills
food-poisoning bacteria, such as E. coli, in the meat. "We think it is
probably rupturing the bacterial cell walls," says lead scientist Morse
Solomon, who outlined the idea at a Honolulu conference this week.
The process works by sending a shock wave through the meat to bust the
tough, chewy fibres. To create the shock wave, researchers place a slab of
meat on top of a steel plate at the bottom of a water-filled plastic garbage
can. Then they detonate an explosive--equivalent to about a quarter of a
stick of dynamite--inside the can. The water transmits the shock wave
through the meat, but the unfortunate garbage can gets blown to smithereens.
Solomon says the shock waves penetrate the entire cut of meat, so bugs deep
inside it are killed--achieving a thousand-fold reduction in bacteria levels
during tests.
The process works best on small, garbage-can-sized batches. A larger tank
doesn't work as well, for reasons that aren't yet clear. And the meat has to
be packaged in robust containers so it isn't destroyed.
Food processing plants might worry about using explosives, so the ARS is
trying other methods of creating shock waves. One idea is to use a powerful
pulse of electricity to create the shock.
Randy Huffman of the American Meat Institute in Arlington, Virginia,
welcomes the idea but says: "The real challenge will be getting this
implemented in a real-world solution."
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:09:28 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3647
> Beef a la Dynamite
>
> A NEW way of tenderising meat has just one snag--it involves a hefty
> explosion.
[snip]
> The process works by sending a shock wave through the meat to bust the
> tough, chewy fibres. To create the shock wave, researchers place a slab of
> meat on top of a steel plate at the bottom of a water-filled plastic
garbage
> can. Then they detonate an explosive--equivalent to about a quarter of a
> stick of dynamite--inside the can. The water transmits the shock wave
> through the meat, but the unfortunate garbage can gets blown to
smithereens.
Mark,
Maybe we can have a barbeque at the next fun shoot. I'll provide the
plastic garbage can.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:11:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Tim Mac <satelism@yahoo.com>
Subject: [none]
unsubscribe
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:08:57 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
>Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:30:04 -0800
>From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
>Subject: RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye
>
>Check out
>http://www.sjgames.com/general/author/wish.html
>and also the Author Solicitation page to see what would be required. If
>you've any questions, just drop Loren an e-mail to both lkw@io.com and
>gdwgames@aol.com.
>
>Jesse
>
>
>
>I will say, though, that I would be EXTREMELY interested in G:T Corsairs.
>;) Gosh... now that I think about it, how does one go about proposing such
>a thing to SJG and Loren, if it hasn't already? And would this even be
>something that people would want to see besides a handful of Trav players?
>
>------------------------------
I came, I saw, I read... I didn't QUITE drool. =) Thanks for the link! I
looked upon it wistfully, however, I imagine writing a book like that is a
big task, and certainly not for someone with not nearly enough time on
their hands.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:17:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Tim Mac <satelism@yahoo.com>
Subject: [none]
list
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:20:07 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: : Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
James W. Brewer wrote:
>
> There is one problem with abolishing mines. It is extremely easy to
> turn munitions such as artillery shells and mortar bombs into mines as
> the US found in vietnam as the recipient. It's amazing how little is
> left after an apc sets off a 500 lb bomb. I was in the US Army
> artillery and learned how to set the fuse for point detonation and
> defeat the setback safety to turn it into a mine. Even the proximity
> fuses could be used over the very short term to achieve a detonation
> when the body of a vehicle passes over to allow the hollow charge shells
> to attack armor.
>
Of course...improvised munitions are always going to be with us. The
thing is, until mines started being broadcast from the air, as in
Cambodia, Sudan and Bosnia, mines were dangerous, but not such a massive
danger to non-combatants.
Minefields tended to be mapped and were used to deny passage to the
enemy. Now it's impossible to map them and they're designed to deny
passage to _anyone_. A really, _really_ cheap way of 'holding ground'.
Anti-vehicle mines are also not the big problem; it's anti-personnel
mines, particularrly airdropped ones.
Again, the treaty is very unlikely to produce the desired effect, absent
changes in how we do war.
That isn't gong to change anytime soon, either.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:21:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Tim Mac <satelism@yahoo.com>
Subject: [none]
unsubscribe traveller
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:25:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG misquote
Terry Carlino writes:
<some stuff incorrectly attributed to him, followed by my comments>
>I don't know who you're quoting, but it isn't me. I'm well aware of the
>difference between the word "theory" as used in formal scientific language
>and "theory" as used in the vernacular. As a matter of fact other than
>request a citation for a Biblical reference (which I wanted for reference
>purposes) I haven't posted to this thread at all.
My sincere apologies, I had thought that the comments refered to
were yours. The post in question was (cut and pasted from
Travellers-digest v1999 #3638):
<start quote>
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 08:06:45 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
>From: healyzh@aracnet.com
>snip
"Ah, now there is a contradiction. Think about what you just said for
a moment. A "tested (and proven) scientific theory". Last I checked if
something is proven it's not a theory. Furthermore, how are you going to
prove it"
> Should I bother? Why not? (sigh)
> And finally, as an engineer I'd have problems with any holy text that
>has an incorrect value for pi. Unfortunately, the Bible does. Now, the
>deity who dictated the Bible may have known the actual value of pi, but the
>human who transcribed it screwed up. Now the question is, what else did
>that human transcriber get wrong?
> Larsen
> "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your
>right to say it."
>
Just as a matter of curiosity where is the value of pi given? To which
particular version of the Bible are you referring? KJ? New American
Catholic? Vulgate? Greek Bible of Alexandria? The Wycliffite Bible? (As you
can see quoting the Bible can be a chancy thing :)) I'm interested because I
didn't realize that anyone had even attempted to calculate Pi until
Archimedes in the 3rd century (BC or BCE, if you prefer,) and didn't realize
that the Bible address the subject at all.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
<end quote>
I hope that you can see why I erroneously concluded that the
comments without any ">" were yours, and I am sorry that I
made this mistake. Apparently, it was healyzh@aracnet.com
that I should have directed my comments to. I shall try to be
more careful in future.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:23:31 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye [OT]
>Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:34:22 -0000
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
>
>From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
> "That particular book has been oddly elusive to me. That, or oddly
>expensive! facsimilies of original, older work tends to be kind of
>costly to start for that!"
>
> I remember reading it in the mid to late 70's after finding a copy in
>the Providence Public Library's main branch. Here in Rhode Island, all of
>our libraries, even at the college level, honor a single library card. I'm
>sure other areas must have similar systems.
> The book was a modern reprint; spelling fixed up, footnotes to explain
>some textual references, and so forth. I don't remember the publisher or
>date, but it couldn't have been much earlier than the 20's or 30's,
>otherwise it would have stuck in my mind.
I'll keep an eye out for it, then, next time I go tot he library! NYC is
kind of odd, though. Three of the boroughs are part of the NYC Public
Library System, Brooklyn and Queens have their own.
> "They use small motorboats and automatic rifles, and tend to be
>extremely vicious, leaving nobody alive."
>
> My friends in the merchant marine speak about these new pirates. They
>get aboard, then rob and terrorize the crew, forcing the master to open
>safes at gun point and so forth. There have been examples of entire ship's
>being seized, the crew disposed of, and sailed away. There was an article
>in the "Economist" last year detailing this. The ship's and cargos
>eventually end up in any of a number of southern Chinese ports.
I never sailed professionally under my license, so I've been fortunate in
never even getting close to the pirate waters. But they really are people
to fear.
Interestingly, I spent three years as a USCG marine inspector, and there
were more than a few rather decrepit Chinese-flag ships that sailed into
the harbor. Now I have to wonder: were any of them shipjacked, and the
Chinese BuShips just filed off the serial numbers?
> The "Economist" spoke about a anti-piracy device being discussed in
>shipping circles. Sort of a maritime "lo-jack" it could be hidden aboard
>and send daily positioning fixes to satellites.
There are devices which do this in an emergency; they're called EPIRBs,
Emergency Position-Indicating Radio Beacons, and many of the more modern
ones use gigahertz-frequency satellite signals. With the advances the
industry is making in ship automation, an anti-shipjacking radio beacon --
really, just a satellite-transmitted inquiry signal, which triggers a reply
from the ship's responder -- is well within our capability.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:52:41 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
on 12/2/01 5:02 pm, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:
> Just the chance to very slightly assist with the creation and
> publication of a book like "G:T Corsairs" leads me to bother you.
> There's an excellent book from the last, great period of Carribean
> piracy written by Daniel Dafoe (Robinson Crusoe) about the pirates of that
> era. It's still considered by historians to be one of the best references
> on the "trade". I read it a number of years ago and still see it listed as
> a reference in several other works.
> The title is one of those goofy, multi-sentenced, early 1700's one
> going something like "A True History of Pyrates Involving Their... blah,
> blah, blah". I think it's usually shortened to "A True History of Pyrates"
> with the archaic "y" spelling.
Dafoe, Daniel - Edited By: Schonhorn, Manuel: A General History of the
Pyrates
Amazon can supply it:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486404889/ref=sim_books/107-7972274-
1033349
Or a nice edition through their affiliates:
http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y02Y5056249Y6088501/qid=
982004726/sr=1-2/ref=aps_sr_z_2_2/107-7972274-1033349
Gordon.
PS: Jesse - I have Vilani & Vargr as well as The Flaming Eye to hand if you
need scans of any of the pictures. Also Corsairs of the Turku Waste with the
Type P sketches.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:02:08 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye [OT]
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
"There are devices which do this in an emergency; they're called
EPIRBs, Emergency Position-Indicating Radio Beacons, and many of the more
modern ones use gigahertz-frequency satellite signals. With the advances
the industry is making in ship automation, an anti-shipjacking radio beacon
- -- really, just a satellite-transmitted inquiry signal, which triggers a
reply from the ship's responder -- is well within our capability."
The idea here was for some daily, or couple times a day, signal sent
without human intervention. The rationale was that if the crew knew where
the device was, or even if it was aboard, then the pirates could torture the
location out of them. Sort of like the "Clerk does not have combination to
the safe" signs we hang up to "educate" the thieves at the 7-11.
With the ship's ETAs and probable courses known to the owners, a daily
position fix would let anyone know when the vessel began behave oddly. When
the new "crew" didn't answer any radio or sat-phone messages, hopefully a US
or Aussie warship would be close enough to have a "looksee"
God, with that be thankless duty and quite a throw back too! I had
ancestors in the RN's anti-slave trade patrols off west Africa after 1838.
Their journals are full of the constant fight against the rat bastards
running the slave ships and the natives ashore preventing the destruction of
the "baracoon" complexes. Dirty, dangerous, and thankless duty.
You would have to have a goodly number of marines aboard (squids with
guns wouldn't be able to handle it) along with a helo to ferry them over.
It's beginning to sound more and more like a job for a "Gazelle"!
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:07:56 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
"Dafoe, Daniel - Edited By: Schonhorn, Manuel: A General History of the
Pyrates
Amazon can supply it:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0486404889/ref=sim_books/107-7972274-1033349
Or a nice edition through their affiliates:
http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y02Y5056249Y6088501/qid=
982004726/sr=1-2/ref=aps_sr_z_2_2/107-7972274-1033349
Gordon."
Mr. Hundley,
Whew, thank you so much for supplying those two links! I was beginning
to fear that the TML folks thought I was making it all up. Thanks to my
inadvertent stupidity, I don't seem to be in a very good odor here at the
moment.
Thnaks for saving this gray-headed old fat man's bacon.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:11:27 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: Looking For...
I am really looking for the statistics on the beowolf Freetrader.
I ahve the deck plans for this ship but no information on it like its ships
profile and such.
if anyone has this info or knows a Link to the info for it i would be most
thank full.
I ahve searched the net and found everything but this freetrader so any help
would be appreciated thanks
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:13:04 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: Last Call On Rio...
I want to make sure that someone has not already claimed or done Rio in
Chronor.
If it has been claimed or you ahve done it Please tell me so i can find
another system to do. thanks in advance Bill
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:16:03 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Black Curtain (repost)
Jeffrey Yin wrote:
> I am confused. Is the only reason some people believe the Black Curtain
> may be something "supernatural" is due to the paragraph in Survival Margin?
What paragraph would _that_ be? IIRC Survival Margin does not mention
the Black Curtain; only the other TNE books do. (I could be wrong, though)
But I'v not seen any speculation about it being 'supernatural'; most
speculation centers on either a 'Lucan as Borg Leader' or Virus empire
in there.
Ships do not come back because it's damned _dangerous_ in there.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:16 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.16.20010212081138.55bf11f6@pop.mindspring.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
Doug describes: "Picture this. Your unit has come across a wire road
barrier. Triple coils of razor wire tied off with hastily impanted
stakes. The "road" is much more than a dirt trail. Your unit has been
assigned to clear this road for supply traffic.
"You, Private Erickson, will take off all metal equipment. This includes
your helmet (if wearing a steel pot), weapon, ammo, mess kit, etc., and
start about 50 meters from the obstacle, take sharp stick, go prone, and
carefully slide the stick into the dirt, feeling for obstuctions. If
there are none. you move 6" over and do it again. Once you have covered
the width of the road, you inch forward and start probing again, about 6"
closer. The sun is pounding down on you, your arms and shoulders are
screaming balls of pain, and you are convinced that every OPFOR weapon in
existence is pointed right at you.
"If you do encounter an obstruction, you mark it. It may be a rock. It
may be a landmine, or it might just be a pressure plate that you've just
armed.
"Lots of fun, hey?"
Oh yeah, FUN! Brings back a few memories... although it's better doing it
in the sun than when it's persisting down and you're crawling through
about 6 inches of mud!
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
Former infantry grunt.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:18:13 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Bloo
Steve, I tried sending the map to you, but the mail got bounced so I'm
posting it on the tml.
Sorry everyone:
- -------------------------------------------
The original message was received at Mon, 12 Feb 2001 11:55:57 -0800 (PST)
from evrtwa1-ar4-156-034.biz.dsl.gtei.net [4.34.156.34]
----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
<sdaniels@portcaddo.com>
(reason: 550 <sdaniels@portcaddo.com>... User unknown)
----- Transcript of session follows -----
... while talking to indefatigable.cnchost.com.:
>>> RCPT To:<sdaniels@portcaddo.com>
<<< 550 <sdaniels@portcaddo.com>... User unknown
550 5.1.1 <sdaniels@portcaddo.com>... User unknown
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:22:20 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: Landgrab site up
Hi all,
Wanted to give you the URL for Edenelt.
http://daumen.home.mindspring.com/edenelt.html
Thanks.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:29:58 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Rob Davenports 'Boring' thoughts (was Science Fiction)
Guess I'll have to check out the GURPS arsenal. Sounds like some
intriguing ideas there...
Rob D.
On 12 Feb 2001, at 10:37, Jones, Dean wrote:
>
> I personally like to combine the Smartsight Chip from GT2 with some kind of
> sensor. You can tell your gun to cover someone and just leave it there! Of
> course, you can use the Smartsight with energy weapons, but that's not the
> point.
>
> Dean
>
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Romani quidem artem amatoriam invenerunt.
You know, the Romans invented the art of love.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:30:29 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Planetary Maps
Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
>> I ended up building my own hex map in Illustrator since I wanted a
>
>> transparent overlay, and also prefer vector graphics since they resize
>
>> better.
>
>
>
> Which Vector formats do you have it in? Can you produce it in HPGL
>
> (I've got a CAD program that will *import* HPGL!)
Wouldn't HPGL be doable (in windows at least) by installing a HPGL
plotter on FILE: and outputting it that way? That's how you make
Postscript files...
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:34:58 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Grabbing La'Belle
Assuming no one has any objection, I'm Grabbing La'Belle/LANTH
Data to be posted at http://www.spinwardmarches.com
Tod
- ----
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
- ----
Tod Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.travellerguns.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:41:16 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Milestone Achieved
Hello Folks,
Nothing like a simple program execution to make one's day all bright and
sunshiny...
Last night, bleary eyed and tired, I finished working on code I hoped would
get my phase I of the distance finder program working. This afternoon, I
tested it, and it worked!
What does Phase I do? Given the starting hex location, along with the
radius (ie distance from starting hex), it will generate the hex id's for
*all* hexes a set distance from the starting hex. Ie, if you enter 3 for
the radius, it will identify all hexes that are 3 hexes distant. This
program now works for any distance radius I care to name up to (in theory)
99 hexes from the point of origin. The implications of this "subroutine"
is that I can now create a program that will accept as Hex ID's, the
following nomanclature: +/- xxxx, +/- yyyy. Such a system will permit me
to use the capital of Traveller's universe as 0000,0000. I could then map
out any star that was within 9999 parsecs of the capital.
What does this mean for my programming efforts? It means that I can now
add the component "Target hex" and include a decision making routine that
compares hex ID's from phase I to the target hex location. If they match,
it notes what R was (ie distance) and stops any further calculations. I
can now determine distance from start hex to target hex. In FAR TRADER
terms? I can now determine the distance between two stars and generate the
cargo traffic based on their trade profiles. What does it mean for any
"navigation" routine I write? I can now judge whether a destination hex is
within reach of a Ship's jump engines.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:42:47 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
on 12/2/01 2:24 pm, Jonathan McDermott at caraig@mindspring.com wrote:
> Don't know if you can really use that. The only indication I've seen that
> the Flaming Eye is a pirates' symbol (a la the Jolly Roger (or the hundreds
> other pirate flags that were in use, including John Rackham's skull and
> cutlasses)) was in the Starship Operator's Manual by DGP. That may or may
> not be canon verboten. It was, however, Vilani. I would say the Vargr
> crew of that corsair had learned that such a symbol would be immediately
> recognizable to their usual prey.
"The Solomani have the skull and crossbones...
The Vilani have the flaming eye...
- --both the dreaded symbols of villainous piracy!"
back cover of "The Flaming Eye", DGP.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:42:47 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
on 12/2/01 9:17 am, Jesse DeGraff at jdegraff@pacbell.net wrote:
> Go to my news page from my site:
>
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
That's an awesome Corsair!
Gordon.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3649
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3650
Date: | 2/12/01 2:18:38 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, February 12 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3650
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
Land Grab ideas
Re: Milestone Achieved
Re: Black Curtain (repost)
RE: Land Grab ideas
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3647
Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
RE: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Minefields...
Explosive lunchmeat!
RE: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
Re: Boing
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Re: Planetary Maps
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:48:04 -0600
From: Leslie Bates <lesbates@minn.net>
Subject: Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
At 09:00 AM 2/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
>
>"I love the smell of PGMPs in the morning! They smell like... victory."
>
>THAT would make one heck of a Traveller campaign. Send the party out to
>the bass end of the Imperium, behind the Claw, where an Imperial Navy
>captain, in charge of a destroyer-raider squadron, has become something of
>an aembarrassment to the Iridium Throne....
>
"Mora. Sh*t. I was still only on Mora."
Les
=======================================================
Objects on screen may be more hostile than they appear.
=======================================================
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:43:46 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:
> BTW, I'd guess that any megacorporation would have it's own
> insurance and banking branches. Megacorps would self-insure,
> right?
I concur. They'd also have their own banks.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:48:18 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Land Grab ideas
Hello Folks,
If anyone is interested...
Profantasy created a program titled CAMPAIGN CARTOGRAPHER that permits
people to create their own maps. What people may not be aware of, is that
Profantasy also created a program titled FRACTAL TERRAIN. It will generate
a world randomly based on criteria entered by the user. Once the world is
generated, it will also export the data to the Campaign Cartographer in map
format usable by any Game Master. As a final bonus? If you have access to
any program that permits you to make animations, the FRACTAL TERRAIN
program will export any number of Bitmap pictures or Gif Pictures for use
in animation. In short? Anyone can create a map of a world in seconds, an
animation sequence in less than 10 minutes, and have it all be true to the
parameters generated in TRAVELLER based on percentage of landmass,
percentage of water cover, elevations both below and above sea level and so
forth. Truely a good pair of programs to own!
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:49:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Milestone Achieved
hal@buffnet.net writes:
> What does this mean for my programming efforts? It means that I can now
> add the component "Target hex" and include a decision making routine that
> compares hex ID's from phase I to the target hex location. If they match,
> it notes what R was (ie distance) and stops any further calculations. I
> can now determine distance from start hex to target hex. In FAR TRADER
> terms? I can now determine the distance between two stars and generate the
> cargo traffic based on their trade profiles.
No you can't ;) You need distance _by jump routes_ ;)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:56:36 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Black Curtain (repost)
on 12/2/01 8:16 pm, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:
> Jeffrey Yin wrote:
>
>> I am confused. Is the only reason some people believe the Black Curtain
>> may be something "supernatural" is due to the paragraph in Survival Margin?
>
> What paragraph would _that_ be? IIRC Survival Margin does not mention
> the Black Curtain; only the other TNE books do. (I could be wrong, though)
p84, last para. Nothing about anything supernatural. I reckon that it's an
out of control sentient Anti-Virus system, set off by the megacorp Symantec.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:49:33 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Land Grab ideas
How and where do i get these and How much do they cost?
Hasta
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: hal@buffnet.net [mailto:hal@buffnet.net]
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 12:48 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Land Grab ideas
Hello Folks,
If anyone is interested...
Profantasy created a program titled CAMPAIGN CARTOGRAPHER that permits
people to create their own maps. What people may not be aware of, is that
Profantasy also created a program titled FRACTAL TERRAIN. It will generate
a world randomly based on criteria entered by the user. Once the world is
generated, it will also export the data to the Campaign Cartographer in map
format usable by any Game Master. As a final bonus? If you have access to
any program that permits you to make animations, the FRACTAL TERRAIN
program will export any number of Bitmap pictures or Gif Pictures for use
in animation. In short? Anyone can create a map of a world in seconds, an
animation sequence in less than 10 minutes, and have it all be true to the
parameters generated in TRAVELLER based on percentage of landmass,
percentage of water cover, elevations both below and above sea level and so
forth. Truely a good pair of programs to own!
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:11:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3647
In mail you write:
>> Beef a la Dynamite
>>
>> A NEW way of tenderising meat has just one snag--it involves a hefty
>> explosion.
>
> [snip]
>
>> The process works by sending a shock wave through the meat to bust the
>> tough, chewy fibres. To create the shock wave, researchers place a slab of
>> meat on top of a steel plate at the bottom of a water-filled plastic
> garbage
>> can. Then they detonate an explosive--equivalent to about a quarter of a
>> stick of dynamite--inside the can. The water transmits the shock wave
>> through the meat, but the unfortunate garbage can gets blown to
> smithereens.
>
> Mark,
>
> Maybe we can have a barbeque at the next fun shoot. I'll provide the
> plastic garbage can.
If you guys actually decide to do this, I'll buy in on the meat. :-)
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:29:51 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
Leslie Bates wrote:
> At 09:00 AM 2/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>> "I love the smell of PGMPs in the morning! They smell like... victory."
>
>>
>
>> THAT would make one heck of a Traveller campaign. Send the party out to
>> the bass end of the Imperium, behind the Claw, where an Imperial Navy
>> captain, in charge of a destroyer-raider squadron, has become something of
>> an aembarrassment to the Iridium Throne....
>>
>
>
>
> "Mora. Sh*t. I was still only on Mora."
>
Too bad air rafts don't go 'Whop-whop-whop-whop' like Hueys...;-)
Somehow the flavor is gone a bit.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:49:31 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
<color><param>0100,0100,0100</param>On 12 Feb 2001, at 12:27, Trevor, Peter wrote:
</color>[snip good comments]
<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>> > but I could see the local Naasirka media branch making fairly
> > recent shows available (per-view fee of course).
>
> Why "of course"? Looking at the current challenges to copyright
> by the internet there may be other alternative revenue streams
> that cover the cost of production. Built-in advertising, public
> service contracts, monthly or annual subscription charges, etc.
> Probably varying from planet to planet.
</color>Good catch - I was assuming a megacorp motto of "anything for a fee"
but forgetting other revenue streams (and I call myself a fan of Free
Software [aka Open Source]). I was thinking of very small fees,
though. Down to microcredits for small types of things, like very
old 3d movies or other things with little demand. That could mean
the AAB can provide a huge amount of past material for it's
subscription charges (I think I saw them detailed in an old Traveller's
Digest). If the AAB got into the entertainment end of things, and not
just Library Data (for which there's bound to be enough to keep them
busy anyway). If so, some megacorp (Naasirka?) might operate an
entertainment library network - subscripe and get monthly updates of
new shows, etc.
If someone can give something away for free, though, and still make
money at it (examples as above), someone will. If the 3I copyright
laws aren't overly long, a large volume of material would be free for
the repackaging deals.
"Hi! And welcome to Usury Downport! Here's our customary floral hand
bracelet as delivered as you can see by local girls in lovely native
costume.
"And here's your free entertainment supplement disk, with new locally
produced shows of great quality you'll not find in other subsectors,
and a collection of the complete "Pirates of the Blood Main" series -
all 951 installments, along with virtual tours of all the local
hotspots [quiet voiceover: "sponsored by the local chamber of
commerce"]. Oh and here's a free AOL disk too."
Though if the ZS, where the patent and copyright(?) laws were very
strict, had micropayment facilities, couldn't the megacorps/bureaux
still make oodles of money but not charge progress-limiting prices?
(Though my impression may be off and it was more just patent laws
restricting TL development [as an explanation for the TL stagnation].)
Micropayments would have allowed other companies to use tech in a
patent or works under copyright in their own products/works for a
low cost, as the patent/(c)-owners make it up in volume.
Not sure what good that idea does though - if anything I suppose
it points to there NOT being a micropayment facility/service/technology
in the First Imperium.
Being a fan of the Gutenburg Project and GNU, the extension of
copyright for Disney rankles me. Copyright is a contract between
an author and the public - the author gets exclusive rights to their
work for a set period of time in exchange for granting public access
thereafter to "promote the dissemination of our cultural heritage."
When copyright gets extended to 75+ years PLUS the life of the author,
that's granting the authors successors (not necessarily family, more
likely their controlling publishing house) that many more years of
monopoly. Then there's the push to copyright FACTS themselves[4],
not just a particular collection of facts, the main example being
sports scores being owned by the leagues themselves who'd prohibit
anyone using or disseminating them without paying.[5]
The cynical question that leaps to mind is: how long can this go on?
See Richard Stallman's allegorical story: The Right to Read [6]
for the extreme.
I remember reading a John Varley story years ago in college that used
"disneyland" as the common (uncapitalized) term for entertainment park.
It was a neat idea to me at the time, though I suspect it might not
come about given the current copyright environment.
CMA paragraph: I'm not a lawyer, nor have a put in more than a few
hours reading about these issues and keeping up with them [7], but they
do make me think. Though as one who aspires to be an author someday,
I've also given thought to the other side of the coin as well. I
certainly wouldn't want NO copyright, but my off-the-cuff answer would
be somewhere between 35 years and the life of the author.
[1] Gutenburg project (provides electronic text for public domain
works)
http://promo.net/pg/index.html
The copyright laws affect how old a work must be before they
can scan it and distribute it. But you can find a lot of the
classics freely available.
[2] GNU's Not Unix
http://www.gnu.org
[3] copyright extension - a good page of links to articles:
http://www.public.asu.edu/~dkarjala/media.html
[4] copyrighting facts- the WIPO treaty,etc.
http://www.cptech.org/ip/database/
[5] owning of sports scores:
http://www.cptech.org/ip/sports.html
[6] Stallman's right-to-read story
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
[7] Info-Policy Notes mailing list, run by James Love of the
Consumer Project on Technology (http://www.cptech.org/)
<underline><color><param>0000,8000,0000</param>http://lists.essential.org/mailman/listinfo/info-policy-notes</underline></color>
Given that the idea of patents and copyrights are to
"promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts", what do you
see as the various patent and copyright policies of the three
Imperiums?
<color><param>7F00,0000,0000</param>> (On the other hand some planets would embrace "per-use" fees ...
> and not just for viewing entertainment media. Why not shock your
> players by introducing them to the concept of "pay-per-wear"
> clothing!)
</color>Hmm - some devilishly good ideas there! Any idea how to get a clue
as to where a society stands on these issues from the UPP?
Yawn. <<tink, tink, tink> Yep, caffeine meter reads empty...
Off to fill up,
Rob D.
<nofill>
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Anulos qui animum ostendunt omnes gestemus!
Let's all wear mood rings!
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:52:31 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
On 12 Feb 2001, at 12:41, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> I love it! The bacteria could be air-dropped over a mine field and
> then you let nature work.
> How about this too. Thye need some sort of trace minerals or compunds
> in the soil to survive and thrive. The compounds could dropped along with
> the beasties and reapplied in order to keep them working. When the field is
> deactivated, you stop the mineral dusting and the useful little fellows die
> out.
> I'm suggesting this so the bacteria are a little harder to use and can
> be turned "off". Otherwise, anyone with a sample could add them to an
> opponnet's ship's air ducts, wait a certain amount of time, and board it
> without trouble. The bacteria would have dined on all the small arms
> ammunition during the wait.
Could be more, um, interesting if the naturally occurring bateria has
no limit or off-switch, but the manufacturer has geneered one in -
which may or may not work or have 'bugs'...
Rob D.
- --
Rob
'Very funny, Scotty. Now beam down my clothes.'
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:46:19 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Minefields...
Bruce Johnson writes:
>Of course...improvised munitions are always going to be with us. The
>thing is, until mines started being broadcast from the air, as in
>Cambodia, Sudan and Bosnia, mines were dangerous, but not such a massive
>danger to non-combatants.
>
>Minefields tended to be mapped and were used to deny passage to the
>enemy. Now it's impossible to map them and they're designed to deny
>passage to _anyone_. A really, _really_ cheap way of 'holding ground'.
>
>Anti-vehicle mines are also not the big problem; it's anti-personnel
>mines, particularrly airdropped ones.
Viva la cluster bomb.
Say, has anybody else noticed that "Area Denial Munitions" and "Archer
Daniels Midland" have the same initials (and, according to a friend of mine,
roughly the same effect on those that are exposed to them.) :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:48:35 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Explosive lunchmeat!
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> > Beef a la Dynamite
> >
> > A NEW way of tenderising meat has just one snag--it involves a hefty
> > explosion.
>
>[snip]
>
> > The process works by sending a shock wave through the meat to bust the
> > tough, chewy fibres. To create the shock wave, researchers place a slab of
> > meat on top of a steel plate at the bottom of a water-filled plastic
>garbage
> > can. Then they detonate an explosive--equivalent to about a quarter of a
> > stick of dynamite--inside the can. The water transmits the shock wave
> > through the meat, but the unfortunate garbage can gets blown to
>smithereens.
>
>Mark,
>
>Maybe we can have a barbeque at the next fun shoot. I'll provide the
>plastic garbage can.
Cool!! And Jesse can haul the steel plate up from the Bay Area! :^)
Wait... who's going to bring the cow?
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:03:09 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
On 12 Feb 2001, at 12:58, Trevor, Peter wrote:
> Here's a thought: megacorp interoffice x-boat systems ... why?
>
> Does "McDonalds (UK) Ltd" pass on *all* its paperwork (staff and
> payroll records, store performance records, local supplier
> invoices, etc) to the head office on the US? Unlikely.
> "McDonalds (UK) Ltd" acts as an independant company and just
> sends summary accounting information to the parent company.
Right. The "why" thought had been percolating in my head a while
and I'd fleetingly thought while writing that that it'd be for
- - those important communications that need need to get somewhere
faster than the x-boats can do, or more securely than x-boats provide
[if that's possible], or go to a place the x-boats don't reach
(thinking about the weird routing of some published x-boat routes).
And I was thinking of the large companies I've been in that have
their own internal mail systems, email, networks, etc. and
extrapolating.
After reading the post about "anything that goes by Fedex, etc."
I can see quite a lot of traffic for the x-boats from all
the many companies that don't want/need their own system and that
even most megacorp traffic could be handled via x-boat. It's there,
extensive, relatively cheap, secure, has capacity, etc.
> Similarly TU megacorps would behave the same way. Thus, except
> for the interstellar transport industry, OIC (offworld
> interoffice communication) would be relatively small and could
> therefore go via normal x-boat. The different operating units
> of a megacorp would function larely as independant companies, so
> the volume of OIC would be similar to the volume of B2B
> communication.
Good points. (What are some sources of info for megacorps? I've
got some (JTAS article on SuSAG, core rules,etc.), and will have to
review them, but maybe there's some I haven't seen that would help.
Rob D.
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Nullo metro compositum est. -- It doesn't rhyme.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:42:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
In mail you write:
> How about this too. Thye need some sort of trace minerals or compunds
> in the soil to survive and thrive. The compounds could dropped along with
> the beasties and reapplied in order to keep them working. When the field is
> deactivated, you stop the mineral dusting and the useful little fellows die
> out.
> I'm suggesting this so the bacteria are a little harder to use and can
> be turned "off". Otherwise, anyone with a sample could add them to an
> opponnet's ship's air ducts, wait a certain amount of time, and board it
> without trouble. The bacteria would have dined on all the small arms
> ammunition during the wait.
Nope. Won't work. Those cartridges are air-tight. The bacteria can't get
into them.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:59:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3632
In mail you write:
> At 07:16 PM 2/11/2001 PST, you wrote:
>
>>BTW, just out of curiosity, what does a training mine do when you set
>>it off?
>
> It explodes. A little. A loud *BANG* and a lot of smoke.
And the person who set it off needs a change of underwear...
>>> Oh, and clearing mines has to be one of the nastiest, slowest, most
>>> nerve-wracking things an infantryman is called upon to do.
>>
>>There are times when I regret having such a good imagination... <shudder>
>
> Picture this. Your unit has come across a wire road barrier. Triple coils
> of razor wire tied off with hastily impanted stakes. The "road" is much
> more than a dirt trail. Your unit has been assigned to clear this road for
> supply traffic.
>
> You, Private Erickson, will take off all metal equipment. This includes
> your helmet (if wearing a steel pot), weapon, ammo, mess kit, etc., and
> start about 50 meters from the obstacle, take sharp stick, go prone, and
> carefully slide the stick into the dirt, feeling for obstuctions. If there
> are none. you move 6" over and do it again. Once you have covered the
> width of the road, you inch forward and start probing again, about 6"
> closer. The sun is pounding down on you, your arms and shoulders are
> screaming balls of pain, and you are convinced that every OPFOR weapon in
> existence is pointed right at you.
>
> If you do encounter an obstruction, you mark it. It may be a rock. It may
> be a landmine, or it might just be a pressure plate that you've just armed.
It sounds about like I expected, expect I handn't realized they had
magnetic antipersonnel mines.
> Lots of fun, hey?
Just wait until you run into the *capacitance* triggered mines. <eg>
Hmm. I wonder if it's possible to build a "telepathic" mine. Maybe a
remote trigger by an observer, maybe a sensor that detonates when a
thinking creature gets close enough.
Come to think of it, at a high enough TL, you could build an NAS into a
mine.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:47:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Boing
In mail you write:
> At 07:13 PM 2/11/2001 PST, you wrote:
>
>>What do you mean "Bay Area"? *Fandom* (in general) gets odd.
>
> Have you ever had a con chair go the entire weekend with two hamsters
> (plushies) duct-taped to his epulats as a badge of rank?
No, but I'm sure there's *something* equally weird that folks at Orycon
have done.
And, of course, there's always the costume that won a prize at an
Orycon some years back. It consisted of some fake blood, a large sheet
of stryrofoam, some plastic wrap, and a strategicly placed label. It
was titled "Meat".
When the contestant tried to "sit down" (more of a lean against the
chair sort of deal) things shifted a little. Also, it got rather warm
under all that plastic wrap, causing certain things to "dangle" rather
farther than in the original setup. With the end result that when he
was called back on stage to accept his prize, the front row got
"flashed" much to their amusement.
Then there's the masquerade's "no peanut butter" rule, though I think
that may have been borrowed from Westercon.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:40:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
In mail you write:
>> Actually, for blasting, one "simple" alternative (for cases where you
>> place the charge right before the blast) is to pack the hole with
>> cotton, and pour in LOX. This is used in some coal mines and works
>> *quite* well. They like it because neither component is likely to
>> explode on its own while being transported (though a LOX spill in a
>> coal mine wouldn't be fun).
>
> Well, cost is the major concern in commercial blasting. This is why ANFO is
> the most common commercial explosive used--it's cheap. It's also stable and
> can be made in slurries that are easy to pump into hard to get places.
LOX is prety damn cheap. But it is a bit trickier to store.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:13:52 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Planetary Maps
on 12/2/01 6:11 pm, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:
> I've got some really nice sector and subsector maps courtesy of Jimmy
> Simpson. I'm looking for the world map (orange peel) map.
>
> BTW, remember the old Spinward Marches map in the Deluxe edition. We have
> an Illustrator version just about ready. If you have Illustrator, I could
> use another pair of eyeball to proof read it.
Ooh, yes please. :)
Gordon.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3650
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3651
Date: | 2/12/01 3:36:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, February 12 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3651
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Looking For...
Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
Re: Land Grab ideas
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
re: JTAS
Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
RE: Looking For...
Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Re: Real life suspended animation
Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
RE: Mines, yours, and ours
Penis size
Re: Mines, yours, and ours (OT but good)
Re: [TML] !!Request!!
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
Re: Islands clusters
Re: Landgrab: Forboldn
Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
Re: Landgrab Question
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:13:57 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Looking For...
on 12/2/01 8:11 pm, William Lane at wlane@Asera.com wrote:
> I am really looking for the statistics on the beowolf Freetrader.
>
> I ahve the deck plans for this ship but no information on it like its ships
> profile and such.
>
> if anyone has this info or knows a Link to the info for it i would be most
> thank full.
There's profiles in T4 and GT rules. I don't know of a HG2 USP, which I
presume you're after. I suspect it would take some simple derivation:
MA-xxxx Beowulf MA-211111-000000-00000-0 MCr37.08 200 tons
Batteries bearing Crew=4.
Batteries TL=12.
Passengers=6. Low=20. Cargo=82. Fuel=30. EP=2.0. Agility=2.
Others will let us know if this stands up to scrutiny. :)
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:13:57 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye (was: VERY quick Flaming Eye question....)
on 12/2/01 8:07 pm, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:
> Whew, thank you so much for supplying those two links! I was beginning
> to fear that the TML folks thought I was making it all up. Thanks to my
> inadvertent stupidity, I don't seem to be in a very good odor here at the
> moment.
Don't fear the TML folks, fear for them. ;)
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:13:57 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
on 12/2/01 6:30 pm, Jesse Degraff at jedegraf@cisco.com wrote:
> I will say, though, that I would be EXTREMELY interested in G:T Corsairs.
> ;) Gosh... now that I think about it, how does one go about proposing such
> a thing to SJG and Loren, if it hasn't already? And would this even be
> something that people would want to see besides a handful of Trav players?
Yes, I'd love this book. I would pay twenty-odd bucks for it. :)
Like many here, I'd love a go at writing for it, but wouldn't pass the two
tests (a) have first been published in the magazines (b) have enough time
presently. Once 'real' life quietens down, I'll try and take care of the
first.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:17:29 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Land Grab ideas
on 12/2/01 8:49 pm, William Lane at wlane@Asera.com wrote:
> How and where do i get these and How much do they cost?
www.profantasy.com, and the prices are right there.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:19:27 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
"Nope. Won't work. Those cartridges are air-tight. The bacteria can't
get into them."
Yup. Mea culpa. I remembered that too, after another cup of coffee.
They might not effective on mines at all either. I don't think that many
mines are manufacture not to be water tight.
Of course, it would be a nice OBTrav; some PC is almost as big an idiot
as I am and convinces his harried crew mates that this is the "perfect"
plan. They hotwire an airlock to get in, thinking their wee bit of
bio-warfare has put the other guys out of business and it's going to be a
walk in the park. Then BAM, the other guys start shooting and the wheels
come off.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:23:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: JTAS
>From: "Colin Paddock" <su_liam@ordata.com>
>My question for people who are already on JTAS is this: Is
>the magazine itself as glacially slow as the subscription site?
I have had no problems with slowness for the past year. Subscription was
quick and easy, too -- or at least I don't remember any problems with it.
I've used both DSL and 56.6 kbps dialup.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:25:40 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
At 12:48 AM -0500 2/9/01, Dalton Spence wrote:
>What happens in canon to a ship that is already in jumpspace if ...
These are my takes....
>
>1.) ... external stores (ie. items attached to hull) are jettisoned?
Disturb the jump field. Roll for misjump.
>2.) ... the jump drive is turned off?
The field collapses and really bad things happen. No ship has ever
returned so nobody knows details. Partially collapsed fields have
killed people so every one probably dies. The ship probably never
comes out of jump space (becuase no remains have ever been found, but
space is big and it probably hasn't happened very often).
>
>3.) ... the flow of power (or fuel) to the jump engines is reduced?
You don't need a lot of power to maintain the field once it is up,
but if it get disrupted, see #2 above.
>4.) ... the jump volume of the ship is increased by inflating a
> balloon inside a cargo mesh?
You disturb the field as per #1
>
>5.) ... an attached ship with its own jump drive tries to use it?
Nobody has ever come back from such an attempt.
> (BTW, could two attached jump ships synchronize their drives and
> jump as one?)
I think canon probably says no...
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:21:09 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Looking For...
Yeah Im looking for a HG Stats for use with CT.
Basically got the plans figure might Like to use a beowolf in an adventure
or something but well need the Info on it..
Thanks for this ill start with that.
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: Gordon Hundley [mailto:gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 2:14 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Looking For...
on 12/2/01 8:11 pm, William Lane at wlane@Asera.com wrote:
> I am really looking for the statistics on the beowolf Freetrader.
>
> I ahve the deck plans for this ship but no information on it like its
ships
> profile and such.
>
> if anyone has this info or knows a Link to the info for it i would be most
> thank full.
There's profiles in T4 and GT rules. I don't know of a HG2 USP, which I
presume you're after. I suspect it would take some simple derivation:
MA-xxxx Beowulf MA-211111-000000-00000-0 MCr37.08 200 tons
Batteries bearing Crew=4.
Batteries TL=12.
Passengers=6. Low=20. Cargo=82. Fuel=30. EP=2.0. Agility=2.
Others will let us know if this stands up to scrutiny. :)
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:44:59 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Leslie Bates wrote:
>
> > At 09:00 AM 2/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >
> >> "I love the smell of PGMPs in the morning! They smell like... victory."
> >
> >>
> >
> >> THAT would make one heck of a Traveller campaign. Send the party out to
> >> the bass end of the Imperium, behind the Claw, where an Imperial Navy
> >> captain, in charge of a destroyer-raider squadron, has become something of
> >> an aembarrassment to the Iridium Throne....
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mora. Sh*t. I was still only on Mora."
> >
>
> Too bad air rafts don't go 'Whop-whop-whop-whop' like Hueys...;-)
> Somehow the flavor is gone a bit.
>
It just means that you'll be able to hear 'Ride of the Valkyries' that much
clearer....
Other Rob
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:44:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Jeff Rowse wrote:
> Hiya peeps,
> I have noticed that "Larsen E. Whipsnade" keeps calling everybody 'Mr'
> <surname> when addressing people; two thoughts spring to mind...
>
> Does this mean he considers everyone else on the list to be more 'worthy' of
> respect than himself? Or...
>
Well, in many social circles, it's not considered polite to refer to
people by their given names until one is asked to do so. I realize this
will shock many Americans, but it's true. It even used to be true in most
of America.
Kiri ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:38:06 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:
>LOX is prety damn cheap. But it is a bit trickier to store.
Actually, it's easy to store. Tupperware and a fridge work just fine. However,
after a week or so, it doesn't taste nearly as good as it does when fresh.
Then, of course, there's the cream cheese shelf life issue... :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:47:35 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Real life suspended animation
On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Niven's organ bank stories make me shudder and if you think the society
> he proposed would never come to pass, think about this. There have been
> several couples over the last few years who have gone to great lengths to
> concieve and bear a child for the express purpose of harvesting bone marrow
> or blood factors from it. These "materials" are for the medical treatment
> of another child, so the entire affair is currently considered "noble". In
> fact so much so that the parents are lionized in the media. The child
> providing the "spare parts" isn't consulted about it though.
Bone marrow and blood factors do grow back.
I imagine you'd hear a different sort of noise entirely if we were talking
about a kidney or part of a liver.
I work in an organ transplant unit, and while I don't think Niven's
stories are completely implausible, it won't happen in the US. The laws
are so stringent here that even if you want to sell an organ, you can't.
If we have any idea that you are being paid to donate an organ, we can't
take your case.
Kiri ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:51:51 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> The pirates have obviously paid off the locals to ignore this. In
> fact, some of the vessels are bought and used in Chinese shipping firms. Of
> course, piracy is an ancient way of life in that part of the world. The
> Ming dynasty even hired the Dutch to eradicate a pirate "kingdom" based on
> Taiwan.(Taiwan has NOT been of mainland China for thousands of years. It
> hosts it's own ethnic group and dialects. China has occassionally exerted
> itself to conquer it, only to let it fall away during the years of dynastic
> troubles. During the last century Taiwan, "belonged" to China between '45
> and '49.)
The Taiwanese natives are another ethnic group entirely. Taiwan has also
been a colony of Japan, and one of my best friends is Taiwanese,
half-Chinese and half-Japanese. She has an English name, a Chinese name
and a Japanese name. I also had an ex-bf whose father was born on Taiwan
while his grandfather was part of the occupational force there.
I believe actor Takeshi Kaneshiro, who got his start in Hong Kong movies
before he was ever in any Japanese movies or TV, is originally Taiwanese.
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:02:15 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
> > Too bad air rafts don't go 'Whop-whop-whop-whop' like Hueys...;-)
> > Somehow the flavor is gone a bit.
> >
>
> It just means that you'll be able to hear 'Ride of the Valkyries' that
much
> clearer....
>
Or pop goes the weasel...
McTropolis, I'm still only in McTropolis...Cumbya!
- --From Eekpocalypse Now
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:59:03 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Mines, yours, and ours
>LOX is prety damn cheap. But it is a bit trickier to store.
>Actually, it's easy to store. Tupperware and a fridge work just fine.
However,
>after a week or so, it doesn't taste nearly as good as it does when fresh.
>Then, of course, there's the cream cheese shelf life issue... :^)
- Mark C.
Well mark that is why it is a bit tricky to store 8P
OBTrav: The Crew of the Freetrader Bagle's Paridice is hired to transport an
unknown cargo. On the outbound run to 100 Diameters they are jumped by a
Pyrate (please note the old fashioned Y 8P)ship. Due to the secretive nature
of the patron who hired them the Pyrate's and the Crew of the Bagel think
that the cargo is some sort of High tech weapons. as the Pyrate Ship closes
to board the crew Rushs to the cargo hold only to find out that the bagel is
Loaded with Salmon Cream Cheeze that is being sent as a test run of the new
product on the delivery world. Oh what are the crew to do 8P
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:16:58 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Penis size
> This displacement of liquid Hydrogen volume measuring system....
anyone know how to attach a frozen penis back on?
:-0
Si
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:44:57 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours (OT but good)
There has been a fairly recent breakthrough in genetic engineering (lets kill
that train of thought RIGHT NOW) and they have given this little bacteria the
genetic 'marker' that makes glow-worms glow. This bacteria DOES eat nitrates
(but too slow to do any good).
What you do is release them over the minefield, leave them for a while and come
back at night with a UV light.
Hey presto, all the glowing patches are where nitrates have leaked from the
mines and you have 'safely' identified all the mines in the area - now it is
just a matter of detonating or removing them all.
:-)
Si
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:29:38 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [TML] !!Request!!
>
>
> It's a glandular thing and I'd thank you not to make fun of it.
>
> Larsen E. (taking umbrage, copiously) Whipsnade
Had i been drinking coffee, that would have been a kill, but i wasn't so
there.
:-)
Si
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 23:06:45 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
- The Dog Mine. The Soviets trained dogs to carry mines on
> their backs, crawl under German Tiger tanks where the mine
> would stick. They stopped the practice when they discovered
> that they had trained the dogs too well. They only had Soviet
> tanks to practice with and the dogs were very good at placing
> the mines under the tanks they had practiced on. Brings new
> meaning the phrase - practice the way you play.
>
Gosh, i mean, imaging if blue team could train dolphins to swim up to red team's
sub's with a humungeous shaped charge on their back. Probably won't cripple the
sub but would cause them a few problems i guess (unless you could use a big
dolphin and a small bucket of sunshine i suppose - or even train a group of
'phins to work together and pull a sledge with a big device on it).
All this is helped by the fact that the nice intelligent dolphin loves to 'play'
and interact with humans.
Can't imagine anyone in the civilized 20th century trying that eh?
:-)
Si
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:50:58 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Religion, Creationism, Sience et al
> I do play male characters
> sometimes. Not that I've really thought about that item of their
> equipment!
>
> Hugs and kisses,
>
> Mexal.
Yo Mex,
In order to be the man, we must first understand the man.
(back to your comment about items of kit.) Us blokes are nothing less
than a life support system for the '2nd' brain.
;-)
Si
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:18:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Islands clusters
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Hans had written:
"I don't see the problem. Any Vargr would defend its
home world against attack in much the same way a human would."
You replied:
> A single Vargr may be loyal to anything, a group of
>Vargr are loyal to nothing. Why defend your world if turning coat means
>the fighting will bypass you? During the opening moves of each war, the
>Vargr may prove steadfast, but what about when the Zho seige is in it's
>2nd year? Or after the "loyal" Vargr realize they risk death,
>dismemberment, or property loss if they resist further? The situation is
>made to order for their fickle, volatile natures to undergo a flip-flop.
>They'd hand over the keys in a heartbeat.
>It's hardwired into them.
I interject:
That post is extremely specist, even for someone posting from the Solomani
Rim.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:24:22 +0100
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Landgrab: Forboldn
Jeff Greenly writes:
>Subject: Landgrab! Regina/ Forboldn, Knorbes, and Whanga
>
>Actually, I'd like to lay claim to all three worlds, if nobody minds. I'll
>have the first draft of the webpage for them posted within the next 2 weeks.
If you have a PYRAMID or JTAS Online subscription you should take a look at
the writeup I did on Forboldn.
Hans
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 23:26:26 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
on 12/2/01 10:44 pm, Rob at rhoughto@one.net.au wrote:
> It just means that you'll be able to hear 'Ride of the Valkyries' that much
> clearer....
You mean the classic "Ride of the K'krees"?
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:29:58 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Landgrab Question
I have this on Whanga:
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Benyamene' ZeAbe' Akella" <xrp@sierratel.com>
To: <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Tuesday, March 21, 2000 10:15 PM
Subject: Re: The TML 2000 landgrab
> Via electronic medium on 3/20/00 11:11 PM, Hans Rancke-Madsen
rancke@diku.dk
> issued forth:
>
> > No doubt they would, but I'm not about to post 6-8 closely written pages
of
> > copyrighted material.
>
> Oh. That /is/ a lot of text. I may want to get a copy of this issue if
> possible, I hope it isn't too rare. Thanks for the info, I'll tell
> Hypercleats he may want to do a different system like you suggest. If I do
a
> system, it will likely be Whanga, or some such ho-dunk backwater area. If
> you find the article, maybe you could give the highlights? I would love
the
> map, if there is one.
>
I have this on Forboldn:
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn Goffin" <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
To: "traveller mailing aa list" <traveller@lists.imagiconline.com>
Sent: Monday, March 20, 2000 2:27 PM
Subject: : The TML 2000 Landgrab
> From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>
> >I've had a writeup of Forboldn accepted by PYRAMID. Likewise an
>
> >adventure set on Grant. I was told that it could take as long
> >as six months before they appear, but they are on the way.
>
> Grant gets a sidebar in a large-format magazine, but I don't
> recall whether it's Challenge, Traveller's Digest, or
> Megatraveller Journal.
>
> --Glenn
>
Which tells me that it is soon to be in print......
Thom Harris - GOFIR - <Gnarly Old Fart In Residence>
Life not only begins at forty, it begins to show.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2001 8:00 PM
Subject: Landgrab Question
> Fellow Travellers,
>
> I don't have the ability to look at the official website right now, and
was
> wondering whether anyone had claimed any of the following worlds:
>
> Forboldn (Regina/SM 0208-E893614-4)
> Knorbes (Regina/SM 0207-E888787-2)
> Whanga (Regina/SM 206-E676126-7)
>
> If no-one has taken these, I would really like to stake a claim on one or
> more. With 12 hours of night shift tonight, I'm gonna need something to
> do...
>
> Jeff
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3651
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3652
Date: | 2/12/01 5:47:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Monday, February 12 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3652
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
Re: Boing
Re: Citizens of the TML (was Re: Muppet Strikes Again.)
Re: Planetary Maps
Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
Re: Planetary Maps
Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: Milestone Achieved
Re: Citizens of the TML
RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye
Re: Looking For...
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
RE: Looking For...
RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye
RE: Anti-RPG
RW Virus Warning
Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
Re: Campaign Cartographer
Re: Milestone Achieved
Campaign Cartographer
(no subject)
re: JTAS
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 23:48:28 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
"It hosts it's own ethnic group and dialects"
"The Taiwanese natives are another ethnic group entirely"
I am sorry, Ms Morgan, didn't I say that already? ;)
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:50:24 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Boing
Leonard Erickson wrote:
> No, but I'm sure there's *something* equally weird that folks at Orycon
> have done.
In LinCon (Linköping, Sweden), it is (since a few years back) forbidden
to use the spaghetti served in the dining room to make a Cthulhu
impersonation...
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:52:39 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Citizens of the TML (was Re: Muppet Strikes Again.)
SwordWorlder wrote:
> Considering how many newbies we have, now would be a good time to mention
> the Citizens of the TML page and invite members, old and new, to add or
> update their mini bios at:
>
> http://www.downport.com/understanding/TML.html
I had completely forgotten that such a thing existed. And I seem to be
in there. Must have had some kind of power failure near my brain
cortex...
How do I update the thing?
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 23:39:20 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Maps
At 13:49 -0500 12/2/01, "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
>BTW, remember the old Spinward Marches map in the Deluxe edition. We have
>an Illustrator version just about ready. If you have Illustrator, I could
>use another pair of eyeball to proof read it.
I can read it if you like - I've Illustrator 7 for the Mac.
I have the core of the Solomani Rim worked up, but it needs
finishing, and for Traveller use it would need the gas giants and
xboats adding. I've actually been working on it for a wargame.
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:56:37 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
> "It hosts it's own ethnic group and dialects"
>
> "The Taiwanese natives are another ethnic group entirely"
>
> I am sorry, Ms Morgan, didn't I say that already? ;)
>
Forgive me for reiterating, I wasn't aware that was all I said. ^_-
K-chan
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:06:23 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
<slaps forehead>
of course...Mora is a long way from the Solomani Rim....but also a fair distance
from K'kree space as well...closer to the Swordies and I think Wagner might still
be big there...
Gordon Hundley wrote:
> on 12/2/01 10:44 pm, Rob at rhoughto@one.net.au wrote:
>
> > It just means that you'll be able to hear 'Ride of the Valkyries' that much
> > clearer....
>
> You mean the classic "Ride of the K'krees"?
>
> Gordon.
Rob
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:44:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary Maps
In mail you write:
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>
>>> I ended up building my own hex map in Illustrator since I wanted a
>>> transparent overlay, and also prefer vector graphics since they resize
>>> better.
>>
>> Which Vector formats do you have it in? Can you produce it in HPGL
>>
>> (I've got a CAD program that will *import* HPGL!)
>
> Wouldn't HPGL be doable (in windows at least) by installing a HPGL
> plotter on FILE: and outputting it that way? That's how you make
> Postscript files...
That presupposes that I've got a Windows program that can read the
other vector formats and output HPGL.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:04:24 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
>On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
> > From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
> > "It hosts it's own ethnic group and dialects"
> >
> > "The Taiwanese natives are another ethnic group entirely"
> >
> > I am sorry, Ms Morgan, didn't I say that already? ;)
> >
>
>Forgive me for reiterating, I wasn't aware that was all I said. ^_-
>
>K-chan
Joy! Rapture! Fireworks! I have finally achieved my very own piece of
good natured banter on the TML with complications or nasty side effects!
Thank you, thank you, thank you, Ms. Morgan! You've warmed the cockles of
this gray-headed, old, fat man's withered heart! Tra-la!
Larsen E. (beaming) Whipsnade
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:02:03 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
On Mon, 12 Feb 2001, Jeff Rowse wrote:
>
>> Hiya peeps,
>> I have noticed that "Larsen E. Whipsnade" keeps calling everybody 'Mr'
>> <surname> when addressing people; two thoughts spring to mind...
>>
>> Does this mean he considers everyone else on the list to be more 'worthy'
of
>> respect than himself? Or...
>>
>Well, in many social circles, it's not considered polite to refer to
>people by their given names until one is asked to do so. I realize this
>will shock many Americans, but it's true. It even used to be true in most
>of America.
>
>Kiri ^_^
>
>***************************************************************************
***
>Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
>tiamat@tsoft.com
>
Yes indeed. I'm still old fashioned enough to resent some salesman, who I
have just met, trying to pretend that he's my newest best friend. Quickest
way to lose a commission I can think of.
There's a lot to be said for maintaining a certain formality in
relationships with people you hardly know. I suspect many public
altercations in America could be avoided if people in the U.S. would just
keep their public interactions civil.
ObTrav: Quite obvious. I would expect that any citizen when dealing with the
nobility would exhibit a certain amount of formality in forms of address and
probably also demeanor. I also expect that absent the "modern" American
attitude, most Travellers will attempt to be polite to their hosts and not
use given names unless given permission.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:13:10 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Milestone Achieved
Hello Anthony,
Based on what I've read in FAR TRADER, I see that it doesn't mention
anything "by jump" but by distance straight. If it were by Jump, it would
be a major issue. What is the difference between a distance of 10 parsecs
that can be made in 10 jumps by Jump 1, or 5 jumps by jump 2? What if the
distance were such that it takes 8 jump 1's and 1 jump 2? What if it were
an 11 parsec distance with 1 jump 3 and 4 jump 2's? As you can see, this
provision is not made in FAR TRADER...
Hal
:P
;P
;)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:51:54 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Citizens of the TML
Did I neglect to leave my address? Hmm...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~<><~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Colin Michael, swordy@e-g-g.net
www.Downport.com - "Traveller Web Portal"
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
> > Considering how many newbies we have, now would be a good time to
mention
> > the Citizens of the TML page and invite members, old and new, to add or
> > update their mini bios at:
> >
> > http://www.downport.com/understanding/TML.html
>
> I had completely forgotten that such a thing existed. And I seem to be
> in there. Must have had some kind of power failure near my brain
> cortex...
>
> How do I update the thing?
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:14:14 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye
It was bound to happen sooner or later Larsen :) I have the annoying habit
of inadvertantly starting up FWotA's (TM) (Flame Wars of the Apocolypse) at
least twice a year. I don't do it intentionally!
Jesse
> Joy! Rapture! Fireworks! I have finally achieved my very
> own piece of
> good natured banter on the TML with complications or nasty side
> effects!
> Thank you, thank you, thank you, Ms. Morgan! You've warmed the
> cockles of
> this gray-headed, old, fat man's withered heart! Tra-la!
>
>
> Larsen E. (beaming) Whipsnade
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:11:13 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Looking For...
At 18:31 -0500 12/2/01, Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>There's profiles in T4 and GT rules. I don't know of a HG2 USP, which I
>presume you're after. I suspect it would take some simple derivation:
The excellent SJ Games Beowulf Deckplans have CT HG2 stats:
A-2211111-01000-10001-0 MCr 59.56 (!) 200 tons
Crew=4, TL=9, Book 2 design.
I think that the cost may be a result of HG2 - original Book 2 was MCr 37.08
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:18:42 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
> That would be a very useful list indeed. Include physical location,
> occupation, active campaigns, martial status...
Physical location: Terra, Lat -42d 51m 07.5s Long 147d 17m 28.7s
Occupation: PhD student
Active Campaigns: Initial stages of a Traveller free trader campaign
based around Feri in the Spinward Marches. Ongoing D&D3 campaign.
Martial status: Not involved in any current wars or peacekeeping
actions
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:22:41 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
> Using an electrostatic charge in the hull would get rid of all particles
> of the same charge as the hull. Neutral particles would not be affected.
Actually, neutral dust would probably get a small induced dipole
moment and be slightly attracted. Once a particle touches the hull,
it may pick up a bit of charge and be repelled again -- or not.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 16:18:20 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Looking For...
I just got my deck plans i went through then and did not see the Stats
anywhere. Ill go look again and make sure i did not miss them some how and
thanks for the info 8)
- -----Original Message-----
From: Dominic Mooney [mailto:dom@cybergoths.u-net.com]
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 4:11 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Looking For...
At 18:31 -0500 12/2/01, Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>There's profiles in T4 and GT rules. I don't know of a HG2 USP, which I
>presume you're after. I suspect it would take some simple derivation:
The excellent SJ Games Beowulf Deckplans have CT HG2 stats:
A-2211111-01000-10001-0 MCr 59.56 (!) 200 tons
Crew=4, TL=9, Book 2 design.
I think that the cost may be a result of HG2 - original Book 2 was MCr 37.08
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:38:19 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
"It was bound to happen sooner or later Larsen :) I have the annoying
habit of inadvertantly starting up FWotA's (TM) (Flame Wars of the
Apocolypse) at least twice a year. I don't do it intentionally!"
Mr. Degraff,
My thanks for understanding sir. I am seem to started one minor flame
war and stupidly added my meager bits of fuel to another during my decidedly
short time here on the TML.
It also seems as if I've convinced quite a people that I am some
"poseur", nastily burying insults in my posts like the land mines we're
currently talking about. If that weren't enough, another group of kind, but
exasperated, folks have had to take the time out of more important pursuits
to fill me in on various items the TML had settled years ago.
I have certainly covered myself in glory in a few short weeks.
Thanks again.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:47:37 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com>
Subject: RE: Anti-RPG
At 12:40 PM 2/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Terry Carlino writes:
> >>"Ah, now there is a contradiction. Think about what you just said for
> >>a moment. A "tested (and proven) scientific theory". Last I checked if
> >>something is proven it's not a theory.
> ><snipped>
><SNIP>
As an inveterate storer of messages, I found Terry's original post that
contained:
>From: healyzh@aracnet.com
>snip
"Ah, now there is a contradiction. Think about what you just said for
a moment. A "tested (and proven) scientific theory". Last I checked if
something is proven it's not a theory. Furthermore, how are you going to
prove it"
<SNIP>
>I don't know who you're quoting, but it isn't me. I'm well aware of the
>difference between the word "theory" as used in formal scientific language
>and "theory" as used in the vernacular. As a matter of fact other than
>request a citation for a Biblical reference (which I wanted for reference
>purposes) I haven't posted to this thread at all.
It looks as if it was healyzh...
Bill Rutherford
worj@home.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:56:19 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: RW Virus Warning
FYI:
There's a new e-mail virus out there, which was sent to me a couple of
hours ago. The subject line is something along the lines of "Here you
have ;o)", and it contains an attachment named AnnaKournikova.jpg.vbs.
It's the .vbs extension that convinces me that this is a real virus.
(Well, that and the fact that the person whose machine sent it to me
e-mailed me about the virus a short time later.)
I don't know what the virus does (besides forwarding itself to folks in
your e-mail address book). Frankly, I don't want to find out.
At any rate, as always, never open e-mail attachments that you're not
expecting.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:06:47 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
Jonathan McDermott wrote:
>
> >Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 19:39:45 -0800
> >From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
> >Subject: re: Islands - Bad example?
> >
> >...
> > >Incompetence in the Imperium's higher levels isn't anything new. Can you
> > >say Sector Admiral Frederick Santanocheev?
> >
> > Revisionist! The man was a hero, betrayed by back-stabbing
> >opportunists who wanted his job!
> >
> > ("his followers ... worship him like a god")
> >
> >------------------------------
>
> "I love the smell of PGMPs in the morning! They smell like... victory."
>
> THAT would make one heck of a Traveller campaign. Send the party out to
> the bass end of the Imperium, behind the Claw, where an Imperial Navy
> captain, in charge of a destroyer-raider squadron, has become something of
> an aembarrassment to the Iridium Throne....
See the "Son of Santanocheev" thread from December 1999, some of which I
reposted in December 2000....
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 01:04:48 -0000
From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Campaign Cartographer
Brilliant piece of software this, I haven't tried Fractal Terrains yet but
plan on getting it soon.
Very easy tio use even if, like me, you are completely graphic illiterate.
:-)
I'd Guess someone already has answered this but if not here is the INFO
Plenty of stuff on Profantasy's site at http://www.profantasy.com
Campaign Cartographer retails at $75.95/£49.95
Fractal Terrains is £39.95/£27.95
Various bundle deals available.
Delivery$7/£5
- -------original messages - - - - - - -
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:49:33 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Land Grab ideas
How and where do i get these and How much do they cost?
Hasta
Bill
- - -----Original Message-----
From: hal@buffnet.net [mailto:hal@buffnet.net]
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 12:48 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Land Grab ideas
Hello Folks,
If anyone is interested...
Profantasy created a program titled CAMPAIGN CARTOGRAPHER that permits
people to create their own maps. What people may not be aware of, is that
Profantasy also created a program titled FRACTAL TERRAIN. It will generate
a world randomly based on criteria entered by the user. Once the world is
generated, it will also export the data to the Campaign Cartographer in map
format usable by any Game Master. As a final bonus? If you have access to
any program that permits you to make animations, the FRACTAL TERRAIN
program will export any number of Bitmap pictures or Gif Pictures for use
in animation. In short? Anyone can create a map of a world in seconds, an
animation sequence in less than 10 minutes, and have it all be true to the
parameters generated in TRAVELLER based on percentage of landmass,
percentage of water cover, elevations both below and above sea level and so
forth. Truely a good pair of programs to own!
Hal
- - - - - - - - - - - end originals - - - - - - - - - -
Peter
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk (Trav & AD&D)
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
And life is harsh and rarely fair.
Never appeal to a man's 'better nature.' He may not have one.
Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love (By Robert.Heinlan)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:10:23 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Milestone Achieved
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> What does Phase I do? Given the starting hex location, along with the
> radius (ie distance from starting hex), it will generate the hex id's for
> *all* hexes a set distance from the starting hex.
Useful.
> What does this mean for my programming efforts? It means that I can now
> add the component "Target hex" and include a decision making routine that
> compares hex ID's from phase I to the target hex location. If they match,
> it notes what R was (ie distance) and stops any further calculations.
This seems very inefficient. I suppose it wouldn't matter for single
point-to-point computation. If you have to do a lot of distance
measurements though, it would be much better to just calculate them
directly.
Convert XY coordinates into XU coordinates by using U = Y - X/2, round
up or down depending on whether the hexes to the right of the (0,0)
hex are (1,0)&(1,-1) or (1,1)&(1,0) respectively. In geometric terms,
the X=0 axis remains a vertical line of hexes, while the U=0 axis is a
sloped line of hexes.
Work out the differences dX = X2-X1, dU = U2-U1. Then the
distance between the two points is
D = max( abs(dX), abs(dU), abs(dX+dU) )
Easier and *much* faster than iterating through all closer hexes.
> I can now determine distance from start hex to target hex. In FAR
> TRADER terms? I can now determine the distance between two stars
> and generate the cargo traffic based on their trade profiles.
I believe you need to work out the distance along a possible trade
route for that, which may not always be the same as the minimum
hex-based distance. However, it should nearly always be not much
different, so it's probably not worth the bother of writing an A* or
similar path-finding algorithm. The Far Trader rules are only an
approximation anyway, and the very occasional difference of a parsec
or two won't make much difference to the end result.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 01:22:18 -0000
From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Campaign Cartographer
Sorry to post this here but thought this might be of interest to those of us
who use Campaign Cartographer and PC's in our games.
Whilst checking out the prices of this software I discovered another program
for use with CC, Realm Overseer® 3D. http://www.overseer3d.com/
quote from website
Realm Overseer® 3D is a stand-alone application to view and travel fantasy
worlds, towns and dungeons. It is fully compatible with Campaign
Cartographer® 2 and partially compatible with Forgotten Realms® Atlas. (
Forgotten Realms ® is the most detailed and mapped world of Dungeons &
Dragons ® role playing game. ) Convert your worlds into a fully realistic 3D
environment. Navigate through your map, rotate, scroll, and zoom in.
Rediscover your old CC2 maps in stunning 3D view.
quote ends
Sorry for the waste of bandwidth but this program looks very very useful and
I haven't seen it's like before (esp. with its compatibility with CC2).
Disclaimer: I don not work for any of these companies have never worked for
them and probably never will.
Peter
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk (Trav & AD&D)
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
And life is harsh and rarely fair.
Never appeal to a man's 'better nature.' He may not have one.
Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love (By Robert.Heinlan)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:30:51 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: (no subject)
- --part1_59.6c600f1.27b9e84b_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
lists
- --part1_59.6c600f1.27b9e84b_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
lists
- --part1_59.6c600f1.27b9e84b_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 01:39:03 -0000
From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: re: JTAS
>From: "Colin Paddock" <su_liam@ordata.com>
>My question for people who are already on JTAS is this: Is
>the magazine itself as glacially slow as the subscription site?
Never had a problem logging on and has been as quick as any other website
:-). I do seem to remember the subscription page being very slow though.
Hang in there the magazine is worth MUCH more than the $15 subscription,
even for die hard TNE fans like me. :-)
I would also suggest subscribing to Pyramid for the ability to playtest the
new Traveller books.
Peter
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk (Trav & AD&D)
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
And life is harsh and rarely fair.
Never appeal to a man's 'better nature.' He may not have one.
Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love (By Robert.Heinlan)
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3652
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From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)
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Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3652
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Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3653
Date: | 2/12/01 8:10:56 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, February 12 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3653
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: RW Virus Warning
Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
Keyboard Kill damn you :-)
RE: Corsair pics
Re: Real life suspended animation
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Re: FAR TRADER Economics
Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Rockhead ring
boarding actions
A Merc's guide to clearing minefields
Re: Deep space refuelling
Re: Real life suspended animation
Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
Re: inflation of Imperial Naval vessels (Winston Churchill quotes)
Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
Re: Penis size
Re: boarding actions
Re: A Merc's guide to clearing minefields
How do I sign up for the traveller deckplans list??
Re: Black Curtain (repost)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:44:32 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: RW Virus Warning
>I don't know what the virus does (besides forwarding itself to folks in
>your e-mail address book). Frankly, I don't want to find out.
It showed up at my office today, and appears to be benign apart from
forwarding itself. Oh, it also reveals which of your co-workers have a
burning desire to look at Anna Kournikova.
There is a simple solution to these VBScript-based Outlook e-mail viruses
(besides not using Outlook):
1. Start Windows Explorer
2. Select the File Types option (in Windows 98 it's View Menu/Folder
Options/File Types tab).
3. In the dialog box that will display, scroll down the list of file types
until you find the item "VBScript Script File". Select it, then click the
"Edit" button.
4. In the dialog box that will display now, find the Actions section. One
option listed there should be "Edit". Select that option, then click the
"Set Default" button.
5. Click OK to accept the new, and then the OK button on the File Types
dialog box (which has been lurking in the background since Step 3).
This now makes any VBScript that tries to execute on your system just load
itself into Notepad and display its source code, no more. So far as I know,
there's no legitimate use for independent, self-executing VBScripts, so you
lose no functionality at all by doing this.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 01:44:51 -0000
From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
Dalton Spence asked
>What happens in canon to a ship that is already in jumpspace if ...
IMTU only, but I think they are _supported_ by canon.
>1.) ... external stores (i.e.. items attached to hull) are jettisoned?
Roll for misjump at +1 to +6 (dependant on size of stores, GM discretion).
Regardless of results 100% loss of stores.
>2.) ... the jump drive is turned off?
No one knows, no-one has EVER (reliably) reported back. However if you are
volunteering to test it, give me a call :-).
>3.) ... the flow of power (or fuel) to the jump engines is reduced?
See 2.
>4.) ... the jump volume of the ship is increased by inflating a
> balloon inside a cargo mesh?
See 1.
>5.) ... an attached ship with its own jump drive tries to use it?
No one knows, no-one has EVER (reliably) reported back. However if you are
volunteering to test it, give me a call :-).
> (BTW, could two attached jump ships synchronize their drives and
> jump as one?)
No, see 5.
Peter
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk (Trav & AD&D)
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
And life is harsh and rarely fair.
Never appeal to a man's 'better nature.' He may not have one.
Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love (By Robert.Heinlan)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 01:49:39 -0000
From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Keyboard Kill damn you :-)
Damn my first ever time suffering this, anyone have any idea how to get
yoghurt out of my keyboard and printer.
- - - - - - - quote - - - - --
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:16:58 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Penis size
> This displacement of liquid Hydrogen volume measuring system....
anyone know how to attach a frozen penis back on?
:-0
Si
- - - - end quote - - - - - - -
DAMN YOU :-)
Peter
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk (Trav & AD&D)
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
And life is harsh and rarely fair.
Never appeal to a man's 'better nature.' He may not have one.
Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love (By Robert.Heinlan)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:15:48 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: RE: Corsair pics
Dear Jesse -
I assume you've seen Mark Seeman's (unofficial but VERY good) corsair
deckplans at:
http://seemann.homepage.dk/corsair.htm
Apart from that, the only pic I could find of the MT corsair is the pic in
the MT Imperial Encyclopedia (the one alongside the ship stats), which I
assume you have. There' also the silhouette in the SoM, as someone else
mentioned.
The corsair in Challenge #75 and the Q-ship corsair in "Letter of Marque"
are both different from the one depicted in the MT Encyc.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:30:16 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Real life suspended animation
Dear Folks -
Kelly wrote:
>Any savings that survives decades of storage fees, service charges (hint:
>banks are in business to MAKE money), bank mergers and closings, etc will
>likely be expended in the medical bills for revival and treatment. The
end
>result is a culture-shocked homeless person with few or no useful job
>skills.
Can I chip in at this point in time and thoroughly recommend that everyone
read _Door Into Summer_, one of Heinlein's best (IMHO)?
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:47:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
In mail you write:
> Gosh, i mean, imaging if blue team could train dolphins to swim up to
> red team's sub's with a humungeous shaped charge on their back.
> Probably won't cripple the sub but would cause them a few problems i
> guess (unless you could use a big dolphin and a small bucket of
> sunshine i suppose - or even train a group of 'phins to work together
> and pull a sledge with a big device on it).
Actually, if it's going to explode against the hull, it won't take all
that big a charge to force the sub to the surface.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:23:35 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: FAR TRADER Economics
On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 12:34:51 +0000, Phil Kitching
<postmark.design@btinternet.com> wrote:
>JR Holmes wrote:
>
>>Of course, though there would appear to be a small number of these
>>sort of ads represented in canonical adventures or adventure seeds,
>>they do appear to be more the exception than the rule. These ads
>>would need to be uncommon or else the speculative cargo rules of CT
>>would not have existed.
>
>I disagree - they sound like an excellent justification for the
>speculative cargo rules.
>
>Why else would your trader decide that paying double the normal
>cost for grain from a High Tech Industrial to take to a low tech
>poor world would be better than buying computers at retail?
>Phil Kitching
If you are fulfilling an advertisement for a cargo, I think that would
not be a speculative cargo. For instance, if the ad says that "we'll
pay 50,000 Cr per dTon of delivered grain", where is the speculation
involved for the merchant.
OTOH, if the ad says "we'll pay 50,000 Cr per dTon up to 3,500 dTons",
then speculation and competition to be first enters into the bargain.
(I'm guessing that 3,500 dTons would be more than a single free trader
could manage, but less than what would be attractive to the major
lines.) I can imagine only the most desparate of situations would
provoke such an ad.
Speculation for me would be when the merchant makes his cargo
selection without any but the most general knowledge about the needs
of his destination. If he is fulfilling an order, it isn't
speculation. Our merchant may know that the destination has a regular
need for 20 dTons of environmental disinfectant for their recyclers
about every 6 months, but he doesn't know if they've received any of
late. This is speculation.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:40:47 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Dear Jesse -
Awesome, awesome pic of the Corsair!!!
<stands and applauds!>
(Why are my co-workers looking strangely at me? ;-)
- - Hyphen
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:35:56 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Rockhead ring
I was searching ringsurf for things Traveller today and found this
http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=Rockhead;action=info
A clearly labeled Traveller Rockhead Ring!
As of this afternoon (US East Coast time), there was no sites yet. A very
new ring.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:38:42 EST
From: JDoch226@aol.com
Subject: boarding actions
In the Azhanti High Lightning game, the Loss of the Bard Endeavor scenario
describes Solomani strike teams fighting their way onto the damaged ship as
it's in a decaying orbit. How do the strike teams get from their own ships
to the surface of the Bard Endeavor?
Jed Docherty
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:33:19 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: A Merc's guide to clearing minefields
> >Anti-vehicle mines are also not the big problem; it's anti-personnel
> >mines, particularrly airdropped ones.
>Viva la cluster bomb.
Aren't fuel-air explosives used to, among other things, to clear minefields.
Set one off at a low altitude, and the overpressure caused by the explosion
detonates any mines in the blast area.
It's kinda tough on the terrain, but hey, it's a minefield already.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
I can't remember if I'm the good twin or the evil one.
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:39:44 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling
Peter wrote:
>
>Just to come back my original request for information. Can anyone
point me
>to canonical description of how deep space jumps work (requirements
etc.) If
>not any ideas how it does work?
"The Traveller Adventure" mentions demountanble tanks. This is required
for the Subsidized Merchant (jump 1) to make a jump across a gap (jump
2). Jump to deep space then use fuel from the demountanble tank to jump
to the next system. 10Cr /ton to remove at A, B, C, and D starports or
free by crew requiring 2 weeks. Storage cost 10Cr/day.
T4: Fire Fusion and Steel:
Collapsible Tanks: flexable bladders can be installed in cargo bays.
Fuel must be pumped to real fuel tanks before use, requiring 6 hours.
empty tanks take up 10% of full volume.
Dismountable Tanks: Can be used as real tankage. Take up full volume
when empty.
MT Ref's manual also has info on tankage.
I could not find info on actual rules for jumping to deep space (but I
could not find the main books for T4 and TNE or High Guard)
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:45:15 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Real life suspended animation
david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au wrote:
>
> Dear Folks -
>
> Kelly wrote:
> >Any savings that survives decades of storage fees, service charges (hint:
> >banks are in business to MAKE money), bank mergers and closings, etc will
> >likely be expended in the medical bills for revival and treatment. The
> end
> >result is a culture-shocked homeless person with few or no useful job
> >skills.
>
> Can I chip in at this point in time and thoroughly recommend that everyone
> read _Door Into Summer_, one of Heinlein's best (IMHO)?
Other impressive stories in this genre are three by Spider Robinson:
"Antinomy," "Too Soon We Grow Old," and "Rubber Soul." The first and
last named stories are in the newly-published collection _By Any Other
Name_, while the second story is in Spider's 1998 collection _User
Friendly_.
Note also that Spider Robinson spilled the beans to the public about why
Admiral Bob chose not to be cryogenically preserved. It seems that,
when approached about the possibility, Heinlein refused, asking "How do
I know it wouldn't interfere with rebirth?"
(Yes, one of my most prized possessions is Spider Robinson's autograph
on the first page of his essay "RAH RAH R.A.H.!" [as published in the
1992 book _Requiem and Tributes to the Grand Master_]. Why do you ask?)
(And no, I'm not trying to stir up another Heinlein flamefest. While I
understand how fen of good will can take issue with the views expressed
in Heinlein's works, I still agree with Spider's assessment of the Good
Admiral: "He's the cat that made skiffy spiffy!")
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:55:27 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refuelling and Fast Drug
>> I've been squinting at a map of the Spinward Marches while
grinding out
>>some "quick 'n dirty" trade volumes ala G:FT. There are a few "C"
shape
>>kinks in the Spinward Main where two middling sized worlds are 3
parsecs
>>straight line distance from each other, but 5 or 6 parsecs away if
you're
>>limited to jump-1 or 2. Why would a fuel depot be placed to
"straighten"
>>out a few of these kinks? Think of them as oxbows...
>
>Nope. People would just use jump-3 ships on that particular run. IMO
90%+ of Imperial trade (by
>volume) would go on jump-2 and jump-3 ships.
>
>BTW, Terry Mixon did a complete map of the Spinward Marches' trade
routes - if you plug 'I am
>looking for Terry Mixon's trade map of the Spinward Marches' into your
favorite search engine, then
>you should find a link.
Really the only J1 merchants are the Type A Free Traders (those who
cannot afford a real ship) and Subsidized Merchants (government owned to
insure regular deliveries to those class C and D ports)
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:22:41 -0500
From: Justin Kim <justinki@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Re: inflation of Imperial Naval vessels (Winston Churchill quotes)
This is very similar to a (semi) famous quote by Winston
Churchill. During World War II, the British government contracted
with a condom supplier to manufacture rifle muzzle covers to be used
by troops assaulting beaches. The covers themselves resembled
condoms, but were much larger to accommodate the business ends of the
rifles.
Apparently, he insisted that each packet be labeled "British
- - size regular" so they "could show the Germans who the master race
was, by God!" (or something to that effect).
At 4:05 PM -0800 2/8/01, Glenn Goffin wrote:
>you do recall the time the Zhodani on Esalin ordered a case of condoms
>from the Imperials. As part of a psyop, the specifications called for
>30cm long and 10cm wide, made of very strong flexible synthetic material.
>The Imperial factory on the other side of the border manufactured them to
>specs and delivered them several days early. The Zhodani were not amused
>to discover that the condom wrappers were all marked, "condom, one each,
>color: clear, size: small."
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:39:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
In mail you write:
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>> Leslie Bates wrote:
>>
>> > At 09:00 AM 2/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >> "I love the smell of PGMPs in the morning! They smell like... victory."
>> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >> THAT would make one heck of a Traveller campaign. Send the party out to
>> >> the bass end of the Imperium, behind the Claw, where an Imperial Navy
>> >> captain, in charge of a destroyer-raider squadron, has become something
> of
>> >> an aembarrassment to the Iridium Throne....
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > "Mora. Sh*t. I was still only on Mora."
>> >
>>
>> Too bad air rafts don't go 'Whop-whop-whop-whop' like Hueys...;-)
>> Somehow the flavor is gone a bit.
>>
>
> It just means that you'll be able to hear 'Ride of the Valkyries' that much
> clearer....
I used to have a player in my D&D campaign who was a *big* fan of that
movie. At one point the party offended the gods (me) and found
themselves standing in the middle of a deserted village near a
semi-tropical beach. They were starting to poke around when I described
this odd "thudding"/"beating" noise getting closer.
They caught on when the music started... <eg>
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:43:15 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
In mail you write:
> <slaps forehead>
>
> of course...Mora is a long way from the Solomani Rim....but also a
> fair distance from K'kree space as well...closer to the Swordies and
> I think Wagner might still be big there...
"Kill the Wabbit, kill the Wabbit..."
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:22:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Penis size
In mail you write:
>> This displacement of liquid Hydrogen volume measuring system....
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> anyone know how to attach a frozen penis back on?
Superglue?
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 03:27:42 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
From: JDoch226@aol.com
"In the Azhanti High Lightning game, the Loss of the Bard Endeavor
scenario describes Solomani strike teams fighting their way onto the damaged
ship as it's in a decaying orbit. How do the strike teams get from their
own ships to the surface of the Bard Endeavor?"
This is going to be involved so please bear with me.
In High Guard (HG), the opposing forces are arranged against one
another in two groups, the line of battle and the reserve. As you can
guess, the two lines of battle shoot at each other while the reserves are
"shielded" from any attack (unless a player achieves a breakthrough).
Next HG says this about boarding actions on page 43;
"First, the ship to be boarded must be disabled; it must be incapable
of maneuvering, all of its offensive weapons must be diabled, and it must
not have a working black globe generator."
HG then goes onto to say that the ship must be separated from friendly
ships, listing how that occurs. After these two conditions have been met,
the ship may be boarded.
The surprising thing is that HG allows troops from ships in the RESERVE
to board the target vessel.
The assumption could be that small craft from the attacker's ships in
the distant reserve ferry troops to the target vessel.
Now, here's the weird part. HG doesn't mandate small craft as part of
it's ship design rules. No rules in it explicitly say, or imply, that a
designer must add X amount of small craft per Y tons of ship or Z number of
marines/troops.
So finally, how do they get there? If a ship has small craft, they
ferry the troops to the target vessel. If the ship doesn't, it moves
alongside the target vessel (a frightening thought considering how large
these ships are) and the troops "jump" across in a quick EVA.
I guess it's up to you as the GM.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:41:36 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: A Merc's guide to clearing minefields
Mark Urbin wrote:
>
> > >Anti-vehicle mines are also not the big problem; it's anti-personnel
> > >mines, particularrly airdropped ones.
> >Viva la cluster bomb.
>
> Aren't fuel-air explosives used to, among other things, to clear minefields.
>
> Set one off at a low altitude, and the overpressure caused by the explosion
> detonates any mines in the blast area.
> It's kinda tough on the terrain, but hey, it's a minefield already.
From what I understand, the problem with this approach is that there is
a difference between "cleared" in a military sense and "cleared" in a
civilian sense.
The burning issue in the first case is "can we get our forces through
the minefield with minimal casualties?" A commander expects to lose
both personnel and equipment in crossing (or even avoiding) any
obstacle; the goal is to find the least expensive method of getting from
Point A to Point B. Note that avoiding the obstacle (mines or other
obstacles) often results in heavier casualties, due to the advancing
units being driven into "fire sacks."
In the second case, _any_ post-conflict civilian casualties are, given
the current political landscape, unacceptable. This premise has led to
the current outcry over land mines, culminating in the treaty banning
land mines.
While FAE munitions are likely to clear a minefield sufficiently to be
considered successful in the first case, they are unlikely to detonate
_all_ mines, thus failing to be considered successful in the second
case.
Any TMLers who wish to discuss with me the ethics of mine warfare are
invited to contact me off-list.
ObTrav: I suspect that belligerents who indiscriminately scatter mines
will tend to risk Imperial intervention, due to the potential impact on
civilians (and the resultant impact on the economy). Belligerents might
ward off said intervention by employing mines as follows:
1. Using only hand-laid mines and maintaining good minefield maps.
Well-mapped machine-laid mines also qualify.
2. Removing any hand-laid mines upon withdrawing from an area
("withdrawing" being defined as removing all forces that may directly or
indirectly fire upon the mined area). Providing the minefield maps to
the occupying power may be considered a satisfactory equivalent to
removing the mines.
3. Ensuring that any air-dropped or artillery-delivered mines are
shortlived, either through time-set self-destruction or through the use
of time-sensitive detonators or explosives.
4. Making maximum possible use of command-detonated mines, that cannot
explode without direct sophont decision.
5. Providing all possible assistance to remove or neutralize all
minefields within enemy territory upon the cessation of hostilities.
6. Avoiding getting caught violating any of the previous five premises.
:-P
Sadly, I expect that Method 6 would be the most commonly used technique
to avoid Imperial sanctions. Happily, the uncertainty of Method 6 would
help encourage the use of Methods 1-5.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:49:19 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: How do I sign up for the traveller deckplans list??
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:03:59 -0800
From: "Jeffrey Yin" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Re: Black Curtain (repost)
See, I have been pouring over my TNE stuff, I can't find anything to support
a supernatural implication, although the SM reference by itself could
possibly lend itself to that interpretation. But Vampire Fleets, although
not specifically (IIRC) mentioning the Black Curtain, does by inference
explain why it is so dangerous. Am I missing somethimg, perhaps in the
magazines (Which I do not have)?
Jeffrey Yin
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Hundley" <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 12:56 PM
Subject: Re: Black Curtain (repost)
> on 12/2/01 8:16 pm, Bruce Johnson at johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote:
>
> > Jeffrey Yin wrote:
> >
> >> I am confused. Is the only reason some people believe the Black Curtain
> >> may be something "supernatural" is due to the paragraph in Survival
Margin?
> >
> > What paragraph would _that_ be? IIRC Survival Margin does not mention
> > the Black Curtain; only the other TNE books do. (I could be wrong,
though)
>
> p84, last para. Nothing about anything supernatural. I reckon that it's an
> out of control sentient Anti-Virus system, set off by the megacorp
Symantec.
>
> Gordon.
>
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3653
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3654
Date: | 2/12/01 10:54:58 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 13 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3654
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Explosive lunchmeat!
Re: boarding actions
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3646
Population stuff
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3653
Re: Black Curtain (repost)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3646
Rocking to the Classics
Re: Black Curtain (repost)
Re: Population stuff
Re: RW Virus Warning
Re: Black Curtain (repost)
Re: Campaign Cartographer
Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Re: Planetary Maps
Esperanza (was: Islands - Bad example?)
Re: A Merc's guide to clearing minefields
Re : Real life Suspended Animation (longish)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:46:00
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Explosive lunchmeat!
At 01:48 PM 2/12/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>Cool!! And Jesse can haul the steel plate up from the Bay Area! :^)
>
>Wait... who's going to bring the cow?
Well, if Jesse and I drive up, we pass *lots* of ranches...
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:42:37
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
At 09:38 PM 2/12/2001 EST, you wrote:
>In the Azhanti High Lightning game, the Loss of the Bard Endeavor scenario
>describes Solomani strike teams fighting their way onto the damaged ship as
>it's in a decaying orbit. How do the strike teams get from their own ships
>to the surface of the Bard Endeavor?
Small craft, probably in the 10 dton range.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 19:55:50
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3646
At 06:09 PM 2/12/2001 -0000, you wrote:
> LOL! I once saw a bit off an episode my nephew was watching, while I
>was reading. It involved two of the crew, Levar Burton of "Roots", with a
>hair comb glued across his eyes, and Michelle Phillips, of "Homicide" with
>some plumbing supplies glued on her nose.(two good actors, what the hell
>were they doing in a ST episode?)
Um... they were regulars. Geordi LaForge (Levar Burton) was in all seven
seasons, and Ensign Ro (Michelle Phillips) was a part of the last few.
Burton has stated that doing Star trek was one of the highlights of his
career.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 23:19:33 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Population stuff
Hello Folks,
Steve Jackson Games put out a book entitled "GURPS SPACE". In it is a
formula that indicates how one could expect a population to increase or
decrease based on environmental effects and so forth. Does anyone use this
kind of thing in their Traveller Universe?
Right now, I am entering in data for my Spinward Marches Data Base (from
the appendix in FAR TRADERS). I kept noticing various things like a tech
level 5 world maintaining a type IV (or B class to you CT players)
starport. There are times when I just shake my head and keep on plugging
away...
Oh, almost forgot. There is an error that may or may not have been caught
in the Errata Sheet. In the appendix, it lists on page 128 for GURPS FAR
TRADER that Condaria is in hex 0527. The correct hex designation should be
0528.
One last thing...
why aren't the populations of a star port included in the population
value of a world? There is one world (I forget which one) that has a
population value of about 1 or 2, and runs a type IV starport. It orbits a
nature preserve type world. Any kind of economic trade with such a world
likely results in maintenance of the starport itself. But the people on
the starport want food, luxuries, vital stuffs and so on. Why aren't they
included in the census of a planet?
"Whadda you mean I give up Citizen rights when I sign on for the Spaceport
Authority employment! I don't think so Jack."
Poor Joe Worksi - tried to register in the census while working in the
highport. We had to fire his sorry buttocks...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 23:34:57 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3653
> "Kill the Wabbit, kill the Wabbit..."
A few years back, PBS ran the Ring of the Nibelung cycle. All through it, for
some reason, I kept thinking of Bugs and Elmer . . .
"What's Opera, Doc?" has warped me, I'm afraid -- I cannot hear Wagner
without thinging or Warner Brothers' cartoon characters.
LKW
p.s.: I cannot listen to the William Tell Overture without thinking of the
Lone Ranger either.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 04:41:22 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Black Curtain (repost)
From: "Jeffrey Yin" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
"See, I have been pouring over my TNE stuff, I can't find anything to
support a supernatural implication, although the SM reference by itself
could possibly lend itself to that interpretation. But Vampire Fleets,
although not specifically (IIRC) mentioning the Black Curtain, does by
inference explain why it is so dangerous. Am I missing somethimg, perhaps in
the magazines (Which I do not have)?"
Mr. Yin,
The Black Curtain is a perimater or border drawn across maps of the
fallen Imperium. It is shaped like an crude ellipse and is roughly centered
on the old Imperial capital of Sylea.
It is not a physical obeject.
Instead, the label refers to the fact that ALL ship's crossing this
line do not return. No one who attempts to visit the systems beyond it come
back. No when has ever been known to leave the area bounded by the
perimater either. With no information about what has happened or is
happening with the area, it is said to be behind the "Black Curtain".
The maps showing the area considered to be inside the "Curtain" shows
it to have "fuzzy" edges. This will be because the people living near it
can't quite agree on which systems that border it are on the inside or are
on the outside. Their arguments would probably boil down to the "no none's
ever gone to system Z and come back" and the "my uncle did so in 1178".
Despite the countless and fruitless arguments about where the "Black
Curtian's" border exactly lays, every one does agree that if you travel too
far into the area, you and your ship will never return.
I believe the current best guesses about what is going on inside the
region involves the two of the Vampire "religions" mentioned in T:NE
"Vampire Fleets". Apparently there are "Lucan worshippers" and "Lucan
haters". The area inside the "Curtain" could be a vast Vampire/robot empire
protecting Sylea or an equally vast war zone where both religions are
constantly battling one another. Either way, it's deadly for humans to try
and enter the area.
If you want to really get bizarre, there was a cryptic blurb in a
Challenge issue that started with "we got" and then listed the intriguing
plot elements of T:NE. One of the elements listed went something like "we
got emperor's that are supposed to be dead, but aren't". How does a
perpetually anagathic-dosed Lucan surrounded by his loyal Vampire minions
grab you?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 04:53:18 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3646
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
"Um... they were regulars. Geordi LaForge (Levar Burton) was in all
seven seasons, and Ensign Ro (Michelle Phillips) was a part of the last few.
Burton has stated that doing Star trek was one of the highlights of his
career."
Mr. Berry,
Regulars!??! Great Googly-Moogly! Well, I suppose work is work and it
might be better than doing a soap opera.
Considering how often the dreck, um...ah "Trek", is re-run, I would
have thought Mr. Burton would say "rewarding" rather than "highlight" when
referring to his seven (gasp) years running around with a child's beret
taped over his eyes. The syndication rights must leave a tidy check in his
mail box each month. KA-CHING!
Larsen E. "Looking for those plumbing supplies and epoxy before my
casting call" Whipsnade
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:54:05 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Rocking to the Classics
On 02/12/01 at 11:34 PM, GDWGAMES@aol.com said:
>> "Kill the Wabbit, kill the Wabbit..."
>A few years back, PBS ran the Ring of the Nibelung cycle. All
>through it, for some reason, I kept thinking of Bugs and Elmer . .
>.
>"What's Opera, Doc?" has warped me, I'm afraid -- I cannot hear
>Wagner without thinging or Warner Brothers' cartoon characters.
>LKW
>p.s.: I cannot listen to the William Tell Overture without thinking
>of the Lone Ranger either.
Yeah, same here....and what does Claire de Lune make you think of? <g>
You know, most of the people our age, Loren, got our first (and in many cases only) taste of classical music through cartoons.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 21:15:41 -0800
From: "Jeffrey Yin" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Subject: Re: Black Curtain (repost)
Mr. Whipsnade,
I thank you for your help, though I was unfortunatly already aware of
that which you state, up to the last paragraph. You say that an issue of
Challenge holds another reference? Do you know which one?
Jeffrey Yin
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 8:41 PM
Subject: Re: Black Curtain (repost)
> From: "Jeffrey Yin" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
> "See, I have been pouring over my TNE stuff, I can't find anything to
> support a supernatural implication, although the SM reference by itself
> could possibly lend itself to that interpretation. But Vampire Fleets,
> although not specifically (IIRC) mentioning the Black Curtain, does by
> inference explain why it is so dangerous. Am I missing somethimg, perhaps
in
> the magazines (Which I do not have)?"
>
> Mr. Yin,
> The Black Curtain is a perimater or border drawn across maps of the
> fallen Imperium. It is shaped like an crude ellipse and is roughly
centered
> on the old Imperial capital of Sylea.
> It is not a physical obeject.
> Instead, the label refers to the fact that ALL ship's crossing this
> line do not return. No one who attempts to visit the systems beyond it
come
> back. No when has ever been known to leave the area bounded by the
> perimater either. With no information about what has happened or is
> happening with the area, it is said to be behind the "Black Curtain".
> The maps showing the area considered to be inside the "Curtain" shows
> it to have "fuzzy" edges. This will be because the people living near it
> can't quite agree on which systems that border it are on the inside or are
> on the outside. Their arguments would probably boil down to the "no
none's
> ever gone to system Z and come back" and the "my uncle did so in 1178".
> Despite the countless and fruitless arguments about where the "Black
> Curtian's" border exactly lays, every one does agree that if you travel
too
> far into the area, you and your ship will never return.
> I believe the current best guesses about what is going on inside the
> region involves the two of the Vampire "religions" mentioned in T:NE
> "Vampire Fleets". Apparently there are "Lucan worshippers" and "Lucan
> haters". The area inside the "Curtain" could be a vast Vampire/robot
empire
> protecting Sylea or an equally vast war zone where both religions are
> constantly battling one another. Either way, it's deadly for humans to
try
> and enter the area.
> If you want to really get bizarre, there was a cryptic blurb in a
> Challenge issue that started with "we got" and then listed the intriguing
> plot elements of T:NE. One of the elements listed went something like "we
> got emperor's that are supposed to be dead, but aren't". How does a
> perpetually anagathic-dosed Lucan surrounded by his loyal Vampire minions
> grab you?
>
>
> Larsen
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 05:31:29 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Population stuff
From: hal@buffnet.net
"I kept noticing various things like a tech level 5 world maintaining a
type IV (or B class to you CT players) starport. There are times when I
just shake my head and keep on plugging away..."
Ahh, but that's exactly what makes Our Olde Game so much fun!
Seriously, we talk about this on the Traveller-Culture list all the time.
Think of tech levels as an indication of what a world can manufacture itself
and not of what it imports. Sri Lanka does not build maintain jumbo jets,
build the radars and instruments needed in control towers, make the tools or
parts needed for simple repairs, or drill for and refine the fuel those jets
need, and yet Colombo has a very servicable airport I have landed at several
times.
"Why aren't the populations of a star port included in the population
value of a world? There is one world (I forget which one) that has a
population value of about 1 or 2, and runs a type IV starport. It orbits a
nature preserve type world. Any kind of economic trade with such a world
likely results in maintenance of the starport itself. But the people on the
starport want food, luxuries, vital stuffs and so on. Why aren't they
included in the census of a planet?"
Who says they always aren't or that they have to be? Your nature
reserve world is a good example. There might only be less than a thousand
actual residents of the planet and many thousands of contract employees
doing all the heavy lifting. The employees could sign up for yearly work
contracts (much like the Pakis and Filipinos who do ALL the work in the Gulf
states), work on or off the nature preserve world, while remaining citizens
of the world they came from. You'd be surprised at how many US citizens
live or work abroad for long periods of time. I've done it and no one asked
why I wasn't counted in the census of Qatar.
I'd suspect your world would import all sorts of goodies for the
tourists who visit, so why wouldn't the conract employees get some of it
too?
The world you mention could be an "no tourist" bio-preserve too. In
that case, the "official" inhabitants could be long term researchers and
every one else contractors there to maintain the facilities.
Why do you assume the port is entirely in orbit? Something in
G:Starports? And why do you think the port has to be big just because of
it's rating?
Traveller starports codes refer to capabilities and only slightly imply
size. A code B port in Traveller has refined fuel, can do annual
maintenance, and build non-starships. The code says nothing about how much
fuel, how many repair slips are available, or how many construction slips
are there. Additionally, TCS factors in population size with starport codes
to tell you how much construction can occur at a shipyard in one year. This
implies that small pop worlds won't have huge yards cranking out
dreadnoughts because they don't have the hands to do it.
Coming up with plausible explanations for all the "strange" stuff makes
the game nicely detailed. If only certain size planets could have only
certain attributes, the game would become bland.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:45:35 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com>
Subject: Re: RW Virus Warning
At 06:56 PM 2/12/01 -0600, the Journeyman Gearhead wrote:
>FYI:
>
>There's a new e-mail virus out there, which was sent to me a couple of
>hours ago. The subject line is something along the lines of "Here you
>have ;o)", and it contains an attachment named AnnaKournikova.jpg.vbs.
>It's the .vbs extension that convinces me that this is a real virus.
>(Well, that and the fact that the person whose machine sent it to me
>e-mailed me about the virus a short time later.)
This one's for real! I just visited the Symantec Antivirus Research
Center's website at http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/ and this is what they
had to say:
VBS.SST@mm is a VBS email worm that has been encoded using a virus creation
kit. The worm arrives as an attachment named AnnaKournikova.jpg.vbs When
executed, the worm emails itself to everyone in your Microsoft Outlook
book. On January 26, the worm will attempt to direct your Web browser to an
Internet address located in The Netherlands.
This worm appears to have originated in the Netherlands
Also Known As: VBS.Lee-o, VBS.OnTheFly
What fun!
Bill Rutherford
worj@home.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 05:47:02 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Black Curtain (repost)
From: "Jeffrey Yin" <jsyin@cats.ucsc.edu>
Mr. Yin,
My apologies for making you wade through all that blather just to get
to the one item that was of any help.
When I read your post asking again for information about the "Black
Curtain" after a few folks had responded with less verbose answers, I
decided to err on the side of caution and talk about everything in the hopes
that some of it would be what you were looking for.
The shortest answer to what makes the "Black Curtain" dangerous is that
nobody knows because nobody comes back to tell us.
The "Challenge" issue I refer to has to be one of the ones in which
T:NE is introduced. I'm sorry but I cannot give you an exact number. The
blurb in question is in a editorial column along a page side. In it, one of
the T:NE line editors is trumpeting T:NE's background story; singing the
praises of several aspects of the mileau. During that he mentions something
along the lines of "emperor's that won't stay dead" or something very
similar.
Publication of the Challenge was rather spotty during GDW's final
years, so there shouldn't be too many issues to pour over.
Again, my apologies for not being precise or able to give you an exact
issue number, author, or quote. I am sorry.
Larsen
P.S. I'm sure the some of the good folk of the TML can tell you exactly
where to find the blurb or quote it correctly. It's the type of thing that
must be flogged to death here over and over.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:51:05 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@home.com>
Subject: Re: Campaign Cartographer
At 01:04 AM 2/13/01 +0000, Peter, Hal, and Bill wrote:
<SNIP!>
Killer program - spend an evening figuring out how to use it - layers,
various tools, etc. - and you can quickly create works of art with it!
Bill Rutherford
worj@home.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:04:28 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
> Go to my news page from my site:
>
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>
> They are NOT in the gallery, you have to go from the news page ('cause
I'm
> too lazy ;)
>
> Best,
> Jesse
Jesse I thought that the corsair was supposed to look like the Subbie,
but I like the idea of one looking like Sub Liner.
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 06:13:55
From: "John Lambert" <hovtej@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Planetary Maps
I do have a Windows program, Hijack, that will take other vector formats and
output HPGL. It will also convert HPGL and vector formats to bitmap formats.
HPGL has a very simple context. It is almost as easy to write a program (in
Basic, VB, C, or whatever) that will output the text string command line
files for HPGL to produce the plots. In the olden days before color printers
were easily available, that's how I use to produce color hardcopy and
vu-graphs. I have a large format HP plotter that uses 36-inch wide roll
paper I need to get working again. I could produce wall-size maps of worlds
or sectors!
John
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>In mail you write:
>
> > Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >
> >> In mail you write:
> >
> >>> I ended up building my own hex map in Illustrator since I wanted a
> >>> transparent overlay, and also prefer vector graphics since they resize
> >>> better.
> >>
> >> Which Vector formats do you have it in? Can you produce it in HPGL
> >>
> >> (I've got a CAD program that will *import* HPGL!)
> >
> > Wouldn't HPGL be doable (in windows at least) by installing a HPGL
> > plotter on FILE: and outputting it that way? That's how you make
> > Postscript files...
>
>That presupposes that I've got a Windows program that can read the
>other vector formats and output HPGL.
>
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:17:00 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Esperanza (was: Islands - Bad example?)
On 12 Feb 2001, at 13:06, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> In the many TCS games I moderated, Esperanza was never selected by a
> player. In fact, if a prospective player found out the only system left was
> Esperanza, they'd rather sit out and wait for the next game! They were afriad
> of it on one hand and didn't want to play it on the other! I can't explain
> that either.
After playing Esperanza several times I've found that the key is good
diplomacy. Faced with meson armed TL 12 opponents it really only has
one option for its fleet (the infamous Sky Darkening Horde of Esperanzan
Missile Boats). This gives the key to Esperanzan diplomay. Even the
hardiest TCS players tend to get a little demoralised when the encounter
the SDHEMB. By carefully playing on other players fears and behaving in a
moderate fashion (only grab Zuflucht and Nebelwelt), Esperanza can just
wait for the others to beat each other up and do the job for you.
SDHEMB Squadron
Designed by: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
130 x Daring Class Missile Boats
Ship: Dainty
Class: Daring
Type: Missile Boat
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
USP
MB-D1068E2-B80004-32708-0 MCr 5,903.052 4 KTons
Bat Bear 1 1 111 1 Crew: 55
Bat 1 1 111 1 TL: 11
Cargo: 53.000 Fuel: 320.000 EP: 320.000 Agility: 6 Ships Troops: 4
Craft: 2 x 10T Gigs
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops
Architects Fee: MCr 59.031 Cost in Quantity: MCr 4,722.442
13 x Griffon Class Tenders
Ship: Corgi
Class: Griffon
Type: Tender
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
USP
AT-Q721253-000000-00000-0 MCr 36,473.552 94.1 KTons
Bat Bear Crew: 449
Bat TL: 11
Cargo: 10.000 Fuel: 39,522.000 EP: 1,882.000 Agility: 1 Ships Troops: 94
Craft: 10 x 4000T Missile Boats, 4 x 10T Gigs
Fuel Treatment: On Board Fuel Purification
Architects Fee: MCr 364.736 Cost in Quantity: MCr 29,178.842
312 x LY202 Class Barges
Ship: LY2
Class: LY202
Type: Barge
Architect: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
USP
YY-0603301-000000-00000-0 MCr 6.325 10 Tons
Bat Bear Crew: 1
Bat TL: 11
Cargo: 5.500 Fuel: 1.000 EP: 0.300 Agility: 3
Fuel Treatment: Fuel Scoops
Architects Fee: MCr 0.063 Cost in Quantity: MCr 5.060
Squadron requires 611 pilots
Squadron cost: Mcr 1,003,721.487
Squadron Tonnage: 1,746,420.000 Td
Squadron consists of: 455 Vessels (13 Starships, 130 Spaceships, 312
Small Craft)
Total squadron crew: 13,299
Total squadron marines: 0
Total squadron ships troops: 1,742
Total fuel tonnage: 555,479.600 Tons
Percentage gas giant capable: 7.506%
Percentage ocean capable: 7.506%
Percentage ocean capable (5000Td or smaller): 7.506%
Note that the tenders in this squadron have sufficent fuel for two
consecutive J2. Throw ten or twenty of these squadrons at most players
and they will generally look at least a little worried (even if you limit
Esperanza to just 10 billion, they can start with over 60 of these
squadrons).
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:17:59 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: A Merc's guide to clearing minefields
John Groth <wombat@premier.net> writes:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>
> > Aren't fuel-air explosives used to, among other things, to clear
> minefields.
> >
> > Set one off at a low altitude, and the overpressure caused by the explosion
> > detonates any mines in the blast area.
>
> From what I understand, the problem with this approach is that there is
>a difference between "cleared" in a military sense and "cleared" in a
>civilian sense.
<SNIP>
>While FAE munitions are likely to clear a minefield sufficiently to be
>considered successful in the first case, they are unlikely to detonate
>_all_ mines, thus failing to be considered successful in the second
>case.
Uh.. actually, FAMs/FAEs are very infrequently used for this purpose
because, well, they don't work very reliably.
Even though FAMs like the BLU-82/B 15,000 lb. GPB generate an over
pressure in excess of 1,000 psi, the pressure wave falls off rapidly
(I can't remember if it's with the square or cube of distance.) As a result,
only a small area directly under the point of detonation (the BLU-82 goes
off above 5 meters above ground, having been triggered by a stand-off
contact boom) is likely to be cleared. While you might be able to get
a football field-sized area(*) cleared of mines, the resultant terrain damage
makes it a cast-iron bitch for infantry to move through. Also, the BLU-82
is the only FAM in US DoD inventory (of which I'm aware) that is big
enough to be even moderately useful for this task and it is so large
that it cannot be deployed from any convention bomber in existance.
They have to pallet-drop it out of the back of a C-130.
(*) Note that in terms of total minefield size, a football field-sized area
is considered "a small area."
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:02:14 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Real life Suspended Animation (longish)
Kelly St. Clair wrote :-
> Why should any future society CARE enough to revive them?
> It presumes a level of charity almost unheard of in all of history.
Charity doesn't come into it at all. The assets of the corpsicles, once
converted to currency, are invested on stock exchanges, etc. just like
insurance premiums or superannuation contributions. The fund managers are
likely to have considerable economic clout if suspension becomes common
practice.
The killer factor, as you say, will be admin and maintenance fees.
I wonder about the effects of inflation. The rate of return on the invested
wealth should outweigh this ; chance alone makes it likely.
Another option is that the assets of the corpsicles are borrowed by the
government (avoiding interest payments on the national debt is probably a
good thing).
On successful thawing, the patient is paid an amount comparable in real
terms to the amount they invested prior to suspension. The cost of revival
is factored into the profits made by the supervising organisation. Even if
the cost approaches that of transplant surgery (worst case US $200K in
current terms), it shouldn't eat into the profit margin all that much.
> More likely, as Larry Niven noted, the corpsicle will be thawed out
> a piece at a time for transplants, or simply tossed in a dumpster
> when the crionics company goes bankrupt.
Hmm.
Think about why most of these people are likely to be frozen.
The obvious diagnoses include :-
disseminated malignancy, refractory shock with multiple organ failure,
dementia, or organ failure with either an inadequate donor pool or being
otherwise too ill to tolerate transplant surgery.
Which leaves maybe one group where harvesting organs would be desirable.
Perhaps government regulation is required. After all, the suspendees will
have contributed greatly to the common weal ; consider it a secure form of
'Social Security'.
> At worst, it's an assumption that the Future OWES you something.
Conversely, do we owe the future anything? It's the 'potential person'
ethical dilemma over again.
We'll agree to limit environmental degradation, etc. in the hope that our
descendants will be able to revive us. Their existence is contingent on what
we do now. Selfish, I know ; but pragmatic.
ObTrav : Economic implications of TTL 8-9 medical science. Combined with
likely demographic transitions, there could be considerable room for
conflict/adventuring.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3654
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Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 01:50:09 -0500 (EST)
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From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)
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Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3654
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3655
Date: | 2/13/01 3:33:14 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 13 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3655
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Re: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
Re: Population stuff
Re: Explosive lunchmeat!
Re: Population stuff
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Re: Population stuff
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
Hawking vs Einstein [was: Re: Anti-RPG]
RE: RW Virus Warning
RE: RW Virus Warning
Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: Population stuff
Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye
Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
RE: Land Grab ideas
RE: Land Grab ideas
RE: Real life suspended animation
Re: Planetary Maps
Re: Rockhead ring
Re: Real life suspended animation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:18:51 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Nope, it's straight from the deckplans created from the silhouette of the
ship that appear in SOM & G:T since. I don't know if there's a print
reference to looking like a subbie......Anybody have a quote?
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Charles R Hensley
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 10:04 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
>
>
> > Go to my news page from my site:
> >
> > http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
> >
> > They are NOT in the gallery, you have to go from the news page ('cause
> I'm
> > too lazy ;)
> >
> > Best,
> > Jesse
>
> Jesse I thought that the corsair was supposed to look like the Subbie,
> but I like the idea of one looking like Sub Liner.
>
> Charles H
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 01:04:45 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
Timothy Little wrote:
> Obviously megacorps in 3I aren't subject to legal action by citizens
> whose lives are seriously impacted by such actions. It wouldn't take
> many punitive damage lawsuits resulting from destruction of
> life-essential medical supplies or collateral damage before the
> megacorps thought twice about engaging in barely legal forms of
> piracy.
It would also require a uniform commercial legal background for the
Third Imperium, which we don't really have in canon.
> I mean, how far are such actions allowed to impact the lives of
> non-employees? Does the "licence to kill" extend to external
> contractors? What about incidental non-employees who happen to be on
> the bridge or in engineering when you blow it up? How much blood
> money does the corp have to pay, and to whom?
Up to the local Duke and how much he wants to get involved.
I don't think MegaCorps would have *any* external contractors -
they're a security risk. When the Duke is a director of the MC,
things get messy.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 02:22:26 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Aces (October 1999 to Today)
On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:22:01 -0500 (EST), "Mikko V. I. Parviainen"
<mvparvia@cc.hut.fi> wrote:
>> My mother and sister, they would just roll their eyes.
>This seems an almost universal reaction of people of the female persuasion
>to bad jokes. Good thing my girlfriend is not one of them. B-)
Uh, Mikko? This comes across as saying that your girlfriend isn't of the
female persuasion. Odd, to say the least.<g>
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 02:51:44 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Population stuff
Hello Larsen,
> Coming up with plausible explanations for all the "strange" stuff makes
>the game nicely detailed. If only certain size planets could have only
>certain attributes, the game would become bland.
Things such as planetary density and diameter resulting in the planet being
a Gas Giant? <grin>
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 23:42:33 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Explosive lunchmeat!
Doug Berry <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> writes:
> >Cool!! And Jesse can haul the steel plate up from the Bay Area! :^)
> >
> >Wait... who's going to bring the cow?
>
>Well, if Jesse and I drive up, we pass *lots* of ranches...
OK. Just don't stop in Grants Pass. I want *beef*, not *mutton*. :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:35:08 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Population stuff
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> why aren't the populations of a star port included in the
> population value of a world?
The population figures don't include temporary residents. If you have a
starport where the crew is switched every month or so, they are not
considered residents, and thus are not included.
It even explains Pop0 worlds with starports and TL ;-)
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:38:47 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3623 "52 Million Ton Spaceports"
Timothy Little wrote:
> Actually, neutral dust would probably get a small induced dipole
> moment and be slightly attracted. Once a particle touches the
> hull, it may pick up a bit of charge and be repelled again -- or
> not.
Mexican jumping space dust!
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:56:14 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
Doug Berry wrote :
> I have *got* to stop reading Suppressed Transmission all night at work...
Snap!
I just read through a whole load of them doing research for a story on urban
myths.
Ken Hite is my hero of the moment.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:58:46 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
knightsky@juno.com wrote :
>
> > > Sauron was a Vilani?
> >
> > Vilani are orcs?
>
> Orcs... in... spaaaace!!!!!!!!
It's been done.
But it's appropriate to the picture that started all this,
as every WH40K orc knows "red ones go faster"
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 03:51:04 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Population stuff
At 09:35 AM 2/13/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>> why aren't the populations of a star port included in the
>> population value of a world?
>
>The population figures don't include temporary residents. If you have a
>starport where the crew is switched every month or so, they are not
>considered residents, and thus are not included.
>
>It even explains Pop0 worlds with starports and TL ;-)
>
>* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
Hello Jens,
My only complaint with that argument? Whether you have a starport
population of 400 where no one single person stays there more than 6
months, or permanent residents who live at the starport for years, you
still have the following situation:
1) 400 people over a period of time will still require supplies shipped in
2) 400 people will service the travellers, and thus, produce a GPP in the
form of Service
As such, it doesn't matter if 200 rolls of toilet paper (assuming that 400
people consume 200 rolls of toilet paper in a year) are used by the same
400 people, or by 800 people working in 6 month shifts - 200 rolls of
toilet paper will be consumed.
That being the case? Each starport's population should be considered
part of the census. Even if they are considered to be "transients" and not
belonging to the local government's population, they will still require
power, food, clothing, etc. They will also still contribute to the general
economic activity for that location.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:02:47 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
Tod Glenn wrote :
>
> > That would be a very useful list indeed. Include physical location,
> > occupation, active campaigns, martial status...
>
> Dare I ask. I'm not sure TML members should be interbreeding.
Hmm, Kenji Aradia Berry anyone ?
(apologies to those named and their significant others)
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:12:33 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
Bruce Johnson wrote :
> Leslie Bates wrote:
> > At 09:00 AM 2/12/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >> "I love the smell of PGMPs in the morning!
> >> They smell like... victory."
> >
> >> THAT would make one heck of a Traveller campaign. Send the
> >> party out to the bass end of the Imperium, behind the Claw,
> >> where an Imperial Navy captain, in charge of a destroyer-raider
> >> squadron, has become something of
> >> an aembarrassment to the Iridium Throne....
>
> > "Mora. Sh*t. I was still only on Mora."
>
> Too bad air rafts don't go 'Whop-whop-whop-whop' like Hueys...;-)
> Somehow the flavor is gone a bit.
I can think of many ways of making air-rafts go 'Whop-whop-whop-whop' like
Hueys.
If all else fails you could hook up a pair of speakers....
Frankie
>
> --
> Bruce Johnson
> University of Arizona
> College of Pharmacy
> Information Technology Group
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:04:23 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Hawking vs Einstein [was: Re: Anti-RPG]
>> <snip>
>> *Someone* had to offset the brilliance of Einstein.
>>
>> David
>From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
>Here's one to start some controversy, was the big E as brilliant or less
or more so
>than Prof Hawking?
><throws in social hand grenade and then retires to safe distance>
Not that much controversy.
Funnily enough, there was a programme on UK tv just last week that covered
exactly this. (Well, it was trailed as covering this but in fact only got
to this topic a few minutes from the end!)
It was actually a rather fascinating biography of Hawking and included much
that I didn't know about his early life, his two marriages and his
dibilitating disease.
Anyway, the practical upshot of 'was he as brilliant?' was that as (I think
it was Roger/Richard? Penrose pointed out) - Einstein came up with
something that changed the whole of physics whereas Hawking has only
'added' to what is already done. Hawking is certainly clever but not in
the same ball park as Einstein.
They even asked Hawking the same question and he admitted that he wasn't in
the same league.
tc
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:26:51 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: RW Virus Warning
John Groth wrote :
> At any rate, as always, never open e-mail attachments that you're not
> expecting.
Or alternatively, don't use operating systems that allow email messages to
execute programs on them <grin>
Y'know I still rememeber telling people how it was impossible for email to
start a virus, and that the warnings were hoazxes. And then Microsoft had to
go and make it possible.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:31:16 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: RW Virus Warning
Paul Drye wrote :
> This now makes any VBScript that tries to execute on your system
> just load itself into Notepad and display its source code,
> no more. So far as I know,
> there's no legitimate use for independent, self-executing
> VBScripts, so you lose no functionality at all by doing this.
Unfortunately you do, sort of.
Microsoft uses this method to launch scripts from some of their programs.
One of these is Outlook 2000. If you disable the execution of .vbs files,
Outlook 2000 won't shut down properly, and will either hang or crash on
exit. At least it used to back when Melissa first came out, later releases
may have fixed this.
There are other little problenms like this in other Office 2000 programs as
well.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:21:49 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:
> But it's appropriate to the picture that started all this,
> as every WH40K orc knows "red ones go faster"
Fasta! Stoopid oomie! Red wunz go fasta!
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:23:02 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:
> Hmm, Kenji Aradia Berry anyone ?
>
> (apologies to those named and their significant others)
You should probably apologize to the world at large as well. That was
not a pleasant thought.
"I think we'll name her... Ditzie."
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:25:18 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Population stuff
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> That being the case? Each starport's population should be
> considered part of the census. Even if they are considered to be
> "transients" and not belonging to the local government's
> population, they will still require power, food, clothing, etc.
> They will also still contribute to the general
> economic activity for that location.
Vilani bueraucratic error? I imagine that the UWPs are an ancient Vilani
method of classifying worlds. Maybe the classification system is faulty.
Maybe the 3I misinterpreted the ancient classification system early in
its history.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:26:33 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
"Frank G. Pitt" wrote:
> I can think of many ways of making air-rafts go
> 'Whop-whop-whop-whop' like Hueys.
>
> If all else fails you could hook up a pair of speakers....
Or get the vehicle into a spin...
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:42:54 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye
>
>
>From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
> "It was bound to happen sooner or later Larsen :) I have
>the annoying
>habit of inadvertantly starting up FWotA's (TM) (Flame Wars of the
>Apocolypse) at least twice a year. I don't do it intentionally!"
>
>Mr. Degraff,
> My thanks for understanding sir. I am seem to started
>one minor flame
>war and stupidly added my meager bits of fuel to another
>during my decidedly
>short time here on the TML.
> It also seems as if I've convinced quite a people that I am some
>"poseur", nastily burying insults in my posts like the land
>mines we're
>currently talking about. If that weren't enough, another
>group of kind, but
>exasperated, folks have had to take the time out of more
>important pursuits
>to fill me in on various items the TML had settled years ago.
> I have certainly covered myself in glory in a few short weeks.
> Thanks again.
>
>
I don't think that, Bill. In fact, I have that habit myself IRL...my
nickname for my gf, for example, is Miss How. :)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:51:24 +0000 (GMT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Ian=20Cooper?= <ian_hammond_cooper@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:
<BTW, I'd guess that any megacorporation would have
it's own insurance and banking branches. Megacorps
would self-insure, right?>
Steve (Bloo) Daniels
>I concur. They'd also have their own banks.
When I worked for the UK civil service they had no
insurance of any sort. You only need insurance when
you cannot afford the loss in the short term. In the
long term, if the insurance companies are doing their
jog right, the cost of premiums will always be greater
than the value of losses you experience. Provided you
expect to be able to absorb those losses in the short
term, you do not need insurance.
Compared to their overall turnover the loss of a ship
will not be significant to a megacorporation, it can
absorb the loss without going under. A small company
of three of four ships is going to be cripped
suffering both an immediate and consequential loss so
will need insurance.
However large corporations do have large asset
reserves which they will tend to diversify in order to
manage risk. If you are about to engage in a tradewar
in the Aramis subsector you may well purchase equity
in shipbuilding companies likely to build the
replacements, star mercs, or trading companies who are
not involved in the trade war. One early sigh the
players may find of a trade war is a megacorporation
managing its risk by investing in areas that will do
well as a result of the conflict.
Ian
____________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:21:15 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Land Grab ideas
Hal wrote:
> Profantasy created a program titled CAMPAIGN CARTOGRAPHER that
> permits people to create their own maps. What people may not be
> aware of, is that Profantasy also created a program titled FRACTAL
> TERRAIN. It will generate a world randomly based on criteria
> entered by the user. Once the world is generated,
<snip>
Yup, my landgrab of Sting uses Fractal Terrain to generate the
map. Not that anyone commented on it.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:31:36 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Land Grab ideas
I've not entered a Landgrab of my own yet, but I can highly recommend
FT...I'm still playing with it.
Dean
>
>
>Hal wrote:
>> Profantasy created a program titled CAMPAIGN CARTOGRAPHER that
>> permits people to create their own maps. What people may not be
>> aware of, is that Profantasy also created a program titled FRACTAL
>> TERRAIN. It will generate a world randomly based on criteria
>> entered by the user. Once the world is generated,
><snip>
>
>Yup, my landgrab of Sting uses Fractal Terrain to generate the
>map. Not that anyone commented on it.
>
>Regards PLST
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:35:33 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Real life suspended animation
Kiri Wrote:
>Bone marrow and blood factors do grow back.
>
>I imagine you'd hear a different sort of noise entirely if we
>were talking
>about a kidney or part of a liver.
>
>I work in an organ transplant unit, and while I don't think Niven's
>stories are completely implausible, it won't happen in the US.
> The laws
>are so stringent here that even if you want to sell an organ,
>you can't.
</Toungue in Cheek>
Not even on Ebay?
<\Toungue in Cheek>
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:48:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Planetary Maps
In mail you write:
> I do have a Windows program, Hijack, that will take other vector formats and
> output HPGL. It will also convert HPGL and vector formats to bitmap formats.
Gee, I have an old DOS version. I didn't know it was still around.
> HPGL has a very simple context. It is almost as easy to write a program (in
> Basic, VB, C, or whatever) that will output the text string command line
> files for HPGL to produce the plots. In the olden days before color printers
> were easily available, that's how I use to produce color hardcopy and
> vu-graphs. I have a large format HP plotter that uses 36-inch wide roll
> paper I need to get working again. I could produce wall-size maps of worlds
> or sectors!
My Plotter only does up to B size. But that's still a good reason to
keep it around.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 03:24:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Bernie McGeehan <einreb62@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Rockhead ring
The cat is out of the bag! I was going to do a bit
more work on my D'Ganzio/Lanth landgrab page, then
announce the Rockhead Ring to the list, but got caught
up in the mundanity of everyday life (a common
occurence). Sign up! Grab the "official" Rockhead gif,
etc...I hope I didnt jump somebody else's train.
- --- Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> I was searching ringsurf for things Traveller today
> and found this
>
>
http://www.ringsurf.com/netring?ring=Rockhead;action=info
>
> A clearly labeled Traveller Rockhead Ring!
>
> As of this afternoon (US East Coast time), there was
> no sites yet. A very
> new ring.
>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
> These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
> Joan of Arc: the patron saint of welders
> http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
>
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 03:37:58 -0800
From: Roger Sanger <rodge@nwnexus.com>
Subject: Re: Real life suspended animation
> "Kelly St.Clair" wrote:
>
> There's one other caveat to chill the hopes (heh) of all these people who
> have themselves frozen, hoping for a cure for what ails them, a new cloned
> body for their head, or just one-way time travel: why should any future
> society CARE enough to revive them?
I of course, disagree. You've got two factors going for you: scientific
curiosity and creative financing.
There will always be scientists and grants to progress this type of research.
It's been with us for decades already, and it doesn't look like it is going away.
As for creative financing, there are a number of routes here. It is likely that
some cryonics companies will fail, but the managers won't let this happen without
a good fight since their chances of getting preserved go out the window with the
company.
However, it is very likely that some cryonics companies will survive (survival of
the fittest). As the technology improves, the cost of storage technology will
decrease (due to better methods, less expensive liquid nitrogen production, vacuum
maintenance, etc.). The standard finance method for maintaining cryonics storage
facilities is the perpetual annuity. As long as the interest on the money the
cryonics patients pay (via their life insurance) for this purpose exceeds the
amount needed to cover expenses in any particular year, the excess goes right back
into the pot to generate more interest revenue, increasing the size of the
annuity. These proceeds need not be put in the care of the cryonics companies
directly -- trusts can be set up for this purpose. Trusts survive because
trustees get paid.
If you or a fellow freezee make it to the big time, you or the other
philanthropist could set up a foundation, ala Rockefeller, Carnegie, Ford, or
Gates. With a wave of his hand (which was holding his pocketbook), Rockefeller
wiped out a disease. Big money, when it inevitably comes to cryonics will likely
have a similar result. BTW, there are several smaller foundations already
supporting this field, and cryonics' popularity is growing all the time.
Another financing possibility is promotional. The first few successfully revived
cryonics patients will be celebrities worth megabucks to advertisers.
Astronauts received a kind of "charity" similar to that of which you are
speaking. Enough people cared enough to send them to the moon FOR FREE (they even
paid them to do it!) But this only happened after the majority of people (in the
US) believed it could be done.
Cryonics does not yet enjoy that kind of expectation, but when Cryonics has its
"Dolly", it'll spark the public's imagination just as cloning has done today.
Governments are spending money to preserve species in gene banks. As the science
of cryonics becomes more viable, they may also be willing to preserve their
history, such as by freezing their greatest leaders, scientists, achievers, and
heroes. Once federal budgets back the technology, it is unlikely that bankruptcy
will occur in those cryonics agencies set up for this purpose.
Rich families may also want to preserve their heritage, and shell out the bucks
necessary to do so. Once started, each successive generation responsible for
maintaining the preserved state of their ancestors, will be loath to fail for fear
that the same thing (premature thawing) will happen to them. Also, once a track
record is established, ending it could be a real blow to one's fame and
credibility. You'd be known as the one who let the legacy die.
So, there are many motives by which individuals and special interest groups from
future society may care about your revivification. Charity may have nothing to do
with it! Just good old fashioned self-interest.
> It presumes a level of charity almost unheard of in all of history.
That's not true, and you are being overly pessimistic. Organizations give away
hundreds of billions to or in the name of charity each year, and that's just
counting the US! Certainly, you don't really presume cryonics support would
require a level of charity greater than this?
The Allies took care of millions of concentration camp victims and displaced
refugees after World War II, nurturing them back to health and helping them to
return home. Certainly, you don't presume a greater level of charity than this?
History, especially modern history abounds with examples of large numbers of
people caring about the present and future well-being of the human race.
> Any savings that survives decades of storage fees, service charges (hint:
> banks are in business to MAKE money), bank mergers and closings, etc will
> likely be expended in the medical bills for revival and treatment.
That's if you presume mere savings rather than active trustee-managed investments.
And you don't even have to get that hands-on. Merely putting the money in a
index-fund (safest form of mutual fund) would likely yield 10% per year,
compounded. That doubles the investment on the average of every seven years. An
investment of $100,000 becomes $102,400,000 after seventy years. So much for your
savings model!
But getting back to trustee-managed portfolios, J. Paul Getty's "savings" has
grown by more than a factor of 25 (from $200,000,000 to over $5,000,000,000) since
his death (banks make more money off you if your balance is allowed to GROW). Too
bad JP didn't have his body frozen! But his private cemetery is being well cared
for (heh heh). So, at least he could be cloned some day.
> The end
> result is a culture-shocked homeless person with few or no useful job
> skills. I doubt there'll ever be a shortage of those.
Is that really much of a concern? When asked if they'd rather live in year Zero
BC as the Caesar of the Roman Empire, or start from scratch now with nothing, most
people asked chose today with nothing. Then the follow-up question was asked:
"would you rather live today as the richest man on Earth, or start out with
nothing 1000 years from now?" The same people who chose the later time in answer
to the first question also choose the later time in answer to this one.
If you presume optimism, the society of the future will be far more advanced, far
more wealthy, and offer far greater opportunities than the society of today,
analogous to the relationship between our ancient past and today.
> More likely, as
> Larry Niven noted, the corpsicle will be thawed out a piece at a time for
> transplants,
Not legally. You can have the paperwork written up to expressly forbid this, and
you can back that up with economic power.
Cryonic patients and those who plan to become such are a growing SIG (special
interest group). Cryonics watch dog groups, and life extension SIGs in general
(they are avid supporters of cryonics), would come down on you HARD if you
violated the sanctum of the cryonically frozen. On another front, Life
Extensionists have been fighting an ongoing battle with the FDA, and as of late
have been winning. Though these suits pertain to another type of preservation,
that of living persons (via bio-preservatives, aka anagathics -- but that's the
topic for a future posting.) :-)
> or simply tossed in a dumpster when the crionics company goes
> bankrupt.
Once the number of cryonics patients (or those planning to become cryonics
patients) reaches critical mass, governments will be pressured to insure their
property (i.e., their bodies), just as the FDIC insures their savings.
Plus, there is no reason you couldn't purchase an insurance policy on your body,
designed to kick in if your cryonics company can't afford to pay the electric
bills or the rent. This of course would be overseen by your trustee.
> At best, cryonic preservation is an act of vanity and/or immortality, not
> unlike the Pharoahs laid to rest with all their riches after the priests
> worked their era's preservative procedures on the corpse.
It is quite unlike the Pharoahs, since the Pharoahs really had no chance of
revivification; cryonics has a lot more potential than mummification! Compare the
damage sustained by the patients of the two technologies. Pharoahs sustained 100%
relevant cellular damage (their brains were removed through their noses and
entirely destroyed), while cryonics patients currently sustain only 1%. That sure
is an improvement. And the future is likely to improve upon that! Once the
freezing procedure reaches .01% cellular damage, dealing with that damage after
revivification will be easy.
As for dealing with 1% cellular damage upon revivification, this relies on general
medical technological advancement, evidenced by the progress in cancer treatments,
tissue and organ transplants, prosthetics, and now therapeutic human cloning (the
harvesting of totipotent cells for use in cell replacement therapies, the main
attraction at this time being the use of such cells to treat Parkinson's Disease
by replacing lost brain cells; totipotent cells tend to migrate to wherever they
are needed in the body). Eventually, repairing 1% systemic damage could become
common practice.
> (Cryo-mummies
> won't be as much of a boon to future archaeologists, though; they require
> steady power, and won't survive the first thaw.)
Cryo-preserved patients will receive a lot of attention, once the technology of
revivification (in animal experiments) reaches a level deemed viable to try out on
humans.
> At worst, it's an
> assumption that the Future OWES you something.
Cryonics patients are the type of people who take matters into their own hands.
They are much more likely to assume that they have to think ahead. They are
contingency planners, extremis!
And they are willing to face the odds.
They are, in a word, survivalists.
Food for thought,
Rodge
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3655
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Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 13 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3656
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR
Re: Real life suspended animation
RE: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
Far Frontiers Data
RE: RW Virus Warning
Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
Classical Music
RE: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Population stuff
RE: Population stuff
Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
Re: RW Virus Warning
RE: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
RE: RW Virus Warning
Re: Population stuff and toilet paper
Re: A Merc's guide to clearing minefields
Re: Real life suspended animation
Caution: mutating Virus.
Re: RW Virus Warning
RE: RW Virus Warning
RE: RW Virus Warning
Re: Real life suspended animation
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 06:58:47 -0500
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR
<snip>
OK. Just don't stop in Grants Pass. I want *beef*, not *mutton*. :^)
- Mark C.
Grants Pass, OR---Where the men are men and the sheep are really women who
haven't shaved in a *long* time... It's soooo natural, dontcha know... (I
have family there, so I know of whence I speak)
OB Traveller: Um... Strange or repugnant local customs on a world that the
PCs are visiting? It's a stretch...
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 04:07:01 -0800
From: Roger Sanger <rodge@nwnexus.com>
Subject: Re: Real life suspended animation
> Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>
> Thanks for the very informative post. I was immediately reminded of
> Niven's stories involving organ banks and the horrific culture that uses
> them.
> His future world had folks who'd frozen themselves too and when the
> supply of repair "parts" in the organ banks started to drop, the selfish,
> ghoul-like citizenry began looking to see what was in the "freezer".
Note that cryonics patients have sustained about 1% system-wide cellular damage.
This would make most if not all of their parts unsuitable for transplanting. You
would need to be able to revive those parts and cure their damage. If you can do
that, then you could also cure the damage in the people who might need
transplants in the first place. Curing the systemic damage in cryonics patients
will be the same technology used to cure damage on the cellular level in living
patients. CRTs (cell replacement therapies) can theoretically be used to rebuild
any damaged organ, including the brain!.
> First,
> they thawed and disassembled all of those corpsicles that wouldn't have
> enough money to support themselves if they were brought back. Next, they
> decided to go after anyone who might have been frozen with the hope that
> their mental illnesses could be cured in the future. The entire affair is
> stopped (for the meantime) after a series of scandals and bad publicity. Of
> course, Niven leaves the door open for the corpsicles to be broken up at a
> later date, when the citizenry's greed outweigh's their morals. A pretty
> good bet in my book.
Besides, other more economical sources of organs will become available. The
top-end of the tissue engineering field (manufacturers of human tissue cell
cultures, such as skin, etc.) is working on frameworks (e.g., they grow skin on
specially designed trays, in racks -- the trays, which trick skin cells into
reacting as if they are in the body, are called frames) to integrate a variety of
cells to form workable organs (such as combining the various liver cells on
interlocking frames). These organs may not look like the original, but may
function as well or even better than the original. I don't know of any successes
in organ framing at this time, but it's been a number of years since I've checked
up on them.
Another point to keep in mind is that cryonics companies are run by fanatics.
They would ship the bodies out of the country before allowing them to be
canabalized!
> Niven's organ bank stories make me shudder and if you think the society
> he proposed would never come to pass, think about this. There have been
> several couples over the last few years who have gone to great lengths to
> concieve and bear a child for the express purpose of harvesting bone marrow
> or blood factors from it. These "materials" are for the medical treatment
> of another child, so the entire affair is currently considered "noble". In
> fact so much so that the parents are lionized in the media. The child
> providing the "spare parts" isn't consulted about it though.
CRTs will render this practice obsolete fairly soon. Totipotent cells harvested
from zygotes are typically injected into the bone marrow of the patient, from
where they migrate to other parts of the body, where they differentiate into
specialized cells. Note, they don't have to migrate far to become marrow cells!
Food for thought,
Rodge
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 07:51:04 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
Timothy Little wrote:
>
>> Obviously megacorps in 3I aren't subject to legal action by citizens
>> whose lives are seriously impacted by such actions. It wouldn't take
>> many punitive damage lawsuits resulting from destruction of
>> life-essential medical supplies or collateral damage before the
>> megacorps thought twice about engaging in barely legal forms of
>> piracy.
>
>It would also require a uniform commercial legal background for the
>Third Imperium, which we don't really have in canon.
>
>> I mean, how far are such actions allowed to impact the lives of
>> non-employees? Does the "licence to kill" extend to external
>> contractors? What about incidental non-employees who happen to be on
>> the bridge or in engineering when you blow it up? How much blood
>> money does the corp have to pay, and to whom?
>
>Up to the local Duke and how much he wants to get involved.
>I don't think MegaCorps would have *any* external contractors -
>they're a security risk. When the Duke is a director of the MC,
>things get messy.
>
>bloo
It's not conical, (It was published in the Variant section of JTAS,) but in
"Imperial Law; Before the Docket in the Third Imperium" I postulate that
Imperial courts do not typically impose punitive damages. I might even go
farther and say that although individuals can sue a Megacorp, the usual
Megacorp response is to use every legal means to defend themselves. What
this means is that no individual could survive the 25 to 75 year long trial
that would result from a Megacorp lawsuit. That's why the typical Civil
Contract Court case is between Corporations and can last generations. 3I
corporations (unlike U.S. companies) take the long view, and will remain in
court as long as they might possibly win.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:18:13
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Far Frontiers Data
Looking through the TML archives I saw that the sector data for Far
Frontiers is in the Galactic 2.4 program. The one I downloaded from the Web
has a few bugs and I saw unable to find the data. Could anyone point me to
another source?
TIA
Mike - "Who never got a newbie essay task"
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:23:01 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: RW Virus Warning
> > So far as I know, there's no legitimate use for independent, self-
> > executing VBScripts, so you lose no functionality at all by doing >
>this.
>
>One of these is Outlook 2000. If you disable the execution of .vbs files,
>Outlook 2000 won't shut down properly, and will either hang or crash on
>exit. At least it used to back when Melissa first came out, later releases
>may have fixed this.
I double-checked, and you're right on both counts. Early releases of Outlook
had this problem, but it was fixed (perhaps a better verb would be "done
correctly") some time ago. There shouldn't be too many remaining copies of
the program that will object to changing the default behaviour for
VBScripts. Outlook Express is also in the clear.
The other Office 2000 problem I found was that Word will hiccup if you try
to double-click and open a Word document with a space in its name. The
document will open properly if you use the "File" menu from within Word,
however, and recent versions seem to have fixed this too. Office 97 and 95
don't have this problem, for those (like me) who never bothered upgrading.
My apologies to those who are annoyed by the severely non-Traveller topic
here, but I thought it would be worthwhile to spread the info anyway, as
Anna seems to be hitting a few places this morning....
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:24:31 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
"Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>>2.) ... the jump drive is turned off?
>
>No one knows, no-one has EVER (reliably) reported back. However if you are
>volunteering to test it, give me a call :-).
So no Imperial Research Station has ever bought a hundred surplus
scout ships from the IISS, rigged them up with very powerful beacons
and an automated timer on the jump drive, and fired them off on
unmanned missions into jumpspace then waited to see if/when they
reappeared?
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:05:52 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: Classical Music
> > "Kill the Wabbit, kill the Wabbit..."
>
> A few years back, PBS ran the Ring of the Nibelung cycle. All through it,
for
> some reason, I kept thinking of Bugs and Elmer . . .
>
> "What's Opera, Doc?" has warped me, I'm afraid -- I cannot hear Wagner
> without thinging or Warner Brothers' cartoon characters.
>
> LKW
>
> p.s.: I cannot listen to the William Tell Overture without thinking of the
> Lone Ranger either.
Ellis Marsalis always referred to that piece as the not the Theme to the
Lone Ranger but the Lone Ranger Overture for you discriminating classical
music fans : )
ObTrav: Respiggi's (sp) "Pines of Rome" is featured in Fantasia 2000. I
thought it would make a great background piece for a space rpg episode.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:35:17 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
>
>
>>>2.) ... the jump drive is turned off?
>>
>>No one knows, no-one has EVER (reliably) reported back.
>However if you are
>>volunteering to test it, give me a call :-).
>
>So no Imperial Research Station has ever bought a hundred surplus
>scout ships from the IISS, rigged them up with very powerful beacons
>and an automated timer on the jump drive, and fired them off on
>unmanned missions into jumpspace then waited to see if/when they
>reappeared?
At a total cost of 2600 MCr with no guarentee of any return? Good luck
finding a manager to sign that off!
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:17:54 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
"Jones, Dean" wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>2.) ... the jump drive is turned off?
> >>
> >>No one knows, no-one has EVER (reliably) reported back.
> >However if you are
> >>volunteering to test it, give me a call :-).
> >
> >So no Imperial Research Station has ever bought a hundred surplus
> >scout ships from the IISS, rigged them up with very powerful beacons
> >and an automated timer on the jump drive, and fired them off on
> >unmanned missions into jumpspace then waited to see if/when they
> >reappeared?
>
> At a total cost of 2600 MCr with no guarentee of any return? Good luck
> finding a manager to sign that off!
>
This is probably small change to an Imperial Research Station
Other Rob
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:20:02 -0000
From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Thanks for the reply, you have hit the crux of my problem ;-). I have all
the info on fuel etc and ways to do it, (internal bladders demountable tanks
etc) but what I really, really need is any ideas on how the actual jump to
deep space works rules wise.
To clarify some questions :
1. Does there need to be a large mass there already? If so how large is
large enough?
2. If no to 1, is this jump riskier (i.e. more chance of misjump) than a
normal system to system jump?
3. Does the jump calculation take longer than normal? Is it more difficult
than normal?
Btw : IMTU there is a standard set of charts listing the normal jump targets
in surveyed systems with updates and calculations, this work is a massive
saving in time for astrogators plotting jumps (I assume the charts are being
used for normal calculations). The main charts for known space are freely
available from the respective governments and more detailed insystem data is
available at most systems with A, B or C starports. Of course there are
exceptions, such as Depot worlds, Red Zones and Mega corporation owned
worlds. My justification for these exceptions are it is a major part of the
Imperiums (and other polities) control systems.
If you want to jump to an object not on your charts the time taken to
calculate is increased (slightly for in system targets, longer for other
systems.)
Of course the constant updating and checking of this information is a major
role of the Scout Service. Oh and yes I know that orbital mechanics are
VERP predictable and this data should not need updating, but my theory is
that jump space is not so predictable and the data needs to be updated every
century or so. This is one justification for the huge numbers of Scout
ships in private hands, every time the vessel spends time at a scout base
the sensor banks are downloaded (including this very vital data) and added
to the Scout Services databases.
- - - - - - - - Original message - - - - - - -
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 20:39:44 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Deep space refuelling
Peter wrote:
>Just to come back my original request for information. Can anyone
point me
>to canonical description of how deep space jumps work (requirements
etc.) If
>not any ideas how it does work?
"The Traveller Adventure" mentions demountanble tanks. This is required
for the Subsidized Merchant (jump 1) to make a jump across a gap (jump
2). Jump to deep space then use fuel from the demountanble tank to jump
to the next system. 10Cr /ton to remove at A, B, C, and D starports or
free by crew requiring 2 weeks. Storage cost 10Cr/day.
T4: Fire Fusion and Steel:
Collapsible Tanks: flexable bladders can be installed in cargo bays.
Fuel must be pumped to real fuel tanks before use, requiring 6 hours.
empty tanks take up 10% of full volume.
Dismountable Tanks: Can be used as real tankage. Take up full volume
when empty.
MT Ref's manual also has info on tankage.
I could not find info on actual rules for jumping to deep space (but I
could not find the main books for T4 and TNE or High Guard)
Charles H
- - - - - - - end original - - - - - - - - - -
Peter
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk (Trav & AD&D)
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
And life is harsh and rarely fair.
Never appeal to a man's 'better nature.' He may not have one.
Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love (By Robert.Heinlan)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:20:04 -0000
From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Population stuff
Working from my (quite possibly faulty) memory; I believe that the UWP
population figures are based on the PERMANENT (whatever that means :-))
population of the system.
- - - - - - - - start quote - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 23:19:33 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Population stuff
Why aren't the populations of a star port included in the population
value of a world? There is one world (I forget which one) that has a
population value of about 1 or 2, and runs a type IV starport. It orbits a
nature preserve type world. Any kind of economic trade with such a world
likely results in maintenance of the starport itself. But the people on
the starport want food, luxuries, vital stuffs and so on. Why aren't they
included in the census of a planet?
- - - - - - - - - end quote - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Peter
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk (Trav & AD&D)
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
And life is harsh and rarely fair.
Never appeal to a man's 'better nature.' He may not have one.
Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love (By Robert.Heinlan)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:23:01 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Population stuff
>
>Working from my (quite possibly faulty) memory; I believe that the UWP
>population figures are based on the PERMANENT (whatever that means :-))
>population of the system.
>
>- - - - - - - start quote - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 23:19:33 -0800
>From: hal@buffnet.net
>Subject: Population stuff
>
>Why aren't the populations of a star port included in the population
>value of a world? There is one world (I forget which one) that has a
>population value of about 1 or 2, and runs a type IV starport.
> It orbits a
>nature preserve type world. Any kind of economic trade with
>such a world
>likely results in maintenance of the starport itself. But the
>people on
>the starport want food, luxuries, vital stuffs and so on. Why
>aren't they
>included in the census of a planet?
Because they're over the XT line, and so they're on Imperial territory, not
planetary.
I agree that they should be counted, but that's why they aren't.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:36:45 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
Stephen Tempest wrote:
> So no Imperial Research Station has ever bought a hundred surplus
> scout ships from the IISS, rigged them up with very powerful
> beacons
> and an automated timer on the jump drive, and fired them off on
> unmanned missions into jumpspace then waited to see if/when they
> reappeared?
Not yet. But a very long time ago, a futuristic (by our standards)
spaceships crashed on Terra and was promptly eaten by a dinosaur.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:27:59 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: RW Virus Warning
Step one to avoid this virus...
DON'T USE OUTLOOK!
The preferred email program of virus writers world wide....
No...they don't use us themselves, they like other people to use it.
It makes their job easier.
Does anybody know of any use, besides making virus writer's lives easier,
the execution of VBS "feature" in Outlook has?
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
urbin@bigfoot.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"This has the characteristic look and feel of a complete fiasco."
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:34:02 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Interstellar Entertainment (was re: Government Code questions )
Rob Davenport wrote:
> Good points. (What are some sources of info for megacorps? I've
> got some (JTAS article on SuSAG, core rules,etc.), and will have to
> review them, but maybe there's some I haven't seen that would help.
Depending on which "core rules" you mean I think there was an
article on megacorps in one of the original LBB supplements (one
of the two Library Datas) ... which will be in the Classic
Reprints. I've also drawn on personal experiences with a number
of RL multinationals ... General Motors, EDS, half a dozen
merchant banks, Cable & Wireless (with several units in the
Caribbean plus Yemen, Maldives, Indonesia, Macau, and the
Soloman Islands*), etc.
* = Ever try to get on-site computer operator support for
installing routine business software during a "civil
disturbance"? Said on-site operators tend to be ...
"distracted" ... But what can you do when your own management
has a "the show must go on" attittude.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:35:27 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: RE: RW Virus Warning
> > This now makes any VBScript that tries to execute on your system
> > just load itself into Notepad and display its source code,
> > no more. So far as I know,
> > there's no legitimate use for independent, self-executing
> > VBScripts, so you lose no functionality at all by doing this.
>Unfortunately you do, sort of.
>Microsoft uses this method to launch scripts from some of their programs.
>One of these is Outlook 2000. If you disable the execution of .vbs files,
>Outlook 2000 won't shut down properly, and will either hang or crash on
>exit. At least it used to back when Melissa first came out, later releases
>may have fixed this.
Ok, back to step one: Don't use Outlook.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ Opinions Mine!
Mort Sahl: General, aren't you supporting Castro by smoking that Havana cigar?
Alexander Haig: I prefer to think of it as burning his crops to the ground.
(from an interview of Mort Sahl on National Public Radio, 23nov91)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:49:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Population stuff and toilet paper
Hal writes:
<snipped>
>As such, it doesn't matter if 200 rolls of toilet paper (assuming that 400
>people consume 200 rolls of toilet paper in a year) are used by the same
>400 people, or by 800 people working in 6 month shifts - 200 rolls of
>toilet paper will be consumed.
<snipped>
I hope that those are BIG rolls! "What do you mean, my allotment
of toilet paper is one roll for the next 2 years?"
;)
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:32:03 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: A Merc's guide to clearing minefields
>> Aren't fuel-air explosives used to, among other things, to clear
>> minefields.
>Uh.. actually, FAMs/FAEs are very infrequently used for this purpose
>because, well, they don't work very reliably.
Ok. Thanks for the data.
I guess there always is the Draka method used in "Under the Yoke."
Hmmm...That would be frowned on under Imperial Rules of Warfare...
Let's revisit that ABOPS idea again...
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:51:03 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: Re: Real life suspended animation
Roger Sanger writes:
<snipped>
>But getting back to trustee-managed portfolios, J. Paul Getty's "savings" has
>grown by more than a factor of 25 (from $200,000,000 to over
$5,000,000,000) since
>his death (banks make more money off you if your balance is allowed to
GROW). Too
>bad JP didn't have his body frozen! But his private cemetery is being well
cared
>for (heh heh). So, at least he could be cloned some day.
<snipped>
If you don't mind my being inquisitive, how might someone clone Mr.
Getty
under these circumstances?
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:48:46 -0000
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
Subject: Caution: mutating Virus.
I have just received the 'Anna Kournikova' VBS virus masquerading under
another name -
Here you have, ;0)
Either it has mutated itself or someone, somewhere is being a very, VERY
silly boy.
Luckily for me, it was on my Work email system which does NOT auto-execute
VBScripts anyway.
ObTrav:
Keep the flame.
Jeff.
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:12:15 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: RW Virus Warning
>DON'T USE OUTLOOK!
>
>The preferred email program of virus writers world wide....
Some of us have no choice -- it's mandated for use where we work by the
upper-level brainiacs. We need to think up ways to minimize the damage and
soldier on.
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:17:28 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: RW Virus Warning
>
>
>>DON'T USE OUTLOOK!
>>
>>The preferred email program of virus writers world wide....
>
>Some of us have no choice -- it's mandated for use where we
>work by the
>upper-level brainiacs. We need to think up ways to minimize
>the damage and
>soldier on.
>
Sadly, Microsoft products are (comparitively) easy to setup (I've just
migrated my primary home PC to Linux from Win95 and it's a nightmare :)) ,
compatible with just about everything and us techs are a bunch of lazy sods
who want to spend all day playing games. :)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:26:37 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: RW Virus Warning
>us techs are a bunch of lazy sods who want to spend all day playing games.
>:)
Or waste valuable company time on the TML. (Hmmm, 10:28 AM here in Toronto,
tsk tsk).
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:43:07 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Real life suspended animation
From: Roger Sanger <rodge@nwnexus.com>
Mr. Sanger,
Thanks for your views on the raiding of organ banks for "repair" parts.
"Note that cryonics patients have sustained about 1% system-wide
cellular damage. This would make most if not all of their parts unsuitable
for transplanting."
I believe Mr. Nivem wrote the first stories of this furture histroy in
the 60's and early 70's. He supposed a non-damaging freezing technique,
even somewhat detailing it during as the death sentence of a convisted
criminal is carried out. One must assume that his "Freeze Out Kids"
underwent a similar process.
The time period in which he initially wrote the series led him to
certain choices about technology. When real tech progress proved those
choices to be wrong and his publisher still wanted more stories set in the
same mileau, he was forced to ignore the progress. It's called poetic
license.
"Besides, other more economical sources of organs will become
available. The top-end of the tissue engineering ..."
When Niven intially wrote aabout and proposed his ghoulish organ bank
society, genetic research, let alone g-engineering, was in it's cradle. I
don't even believe the word "clone" had been devised. He does use advances
in prothestics, and eventually genetic engineering, to allow his future
history to grow beyond the organ bank phase.
Hopefully, the same progress we help us advoid it in the first place.
"Another point to keep in mind is that cryonics companies are run by
fanatics. They would ship the bodies out of the country before allowing them
to be canabalized!"
Niven's society is a world state. There is now place to ship the
corpsicles to that would be beyond society's reach. The freezer vault
managers do take legal measures, but lose in court.
"CRTs will render this practice obsolete fairly soon."
Yes they will. And I hope it occurs very soon. The idea of having
children to harvest tissues from them (even tissue that grows back, as
pointed out by Ms. Morgan) makes my skin crawl. There have always been
people or cultures within human societies that are viewed as disposable.
I'd hate to think of any additional reasons to add to the list. Hopefully,
our technological progress in this area will be so rapid that the ethical
quandries will become moot.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3656
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3657
Date: | 2/13/01 9:57:34 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 13 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3657
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Penis size
Re: boarding actions
Re: Esperanza (was: Islands - Bad example?)
Re: A Merc's guide to clearing minefields
Re: RW Virus Warning
Re: Population stuff
Re: Land Grab ideas
Re: RW Virus Warning
Re: Campaign Cartographer
Re: Looking For...
RE: Land Grab ideas
RE: Population stuff
Non-humanoid aliens (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3647)
Re: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
Re: boarding actions
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: Land Grab ideas
Megacorp info
Re: Population stuff
Re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR
RE: Land Grab ideas- Fractal Terrain generators
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 07:44:06 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Penis size
on 2/12/01 7:22 PM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>> anyone know how to attach a frozen penis back on?
>
> Superglue?
He need to have an addadicktomy done.
;)
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 07:49:57 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
on 2/12/01 7:27 PM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:
> So finally, how do they get there? If a ship has small craft, they
> ferry the troops to the target vessel. If the ship doesn't, it moves
> alongside the target vessel (a frightening thought considering how large
> these ships are) and the troops "jump" across in a quick EVA.
> I guess it's up to you as the GM.
>
IMTY, there are special ships for boarding. Fast and highly maneuverable
(for a very short time) they have a universal docking collar and a high
speed plasma torch cutter (a la Aliens) to make entry. A squad or two is
carried.
Since these vessels only have to travel a short distance between ships, they
can be heavily armored and pretty quick. Of course lake of grav comp and
other amenities (let keep these thing cheap and expendable) mean it's a
pretty exciting ride.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:57:10 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Esperanza (was: Islands - Bad example?)
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Mr. Moffat-Vallance,
Thank you for your insights into playing Esperanza.
"After playing Esperanza several times i've found that the key is good
diplomacy."
As a TCS moderator, I was forced into that role many times. In all of
them, I unwittingly followed your outline, at least in the broad strokes.
But, I could not coax, wheedle, or cajole any of the players who filled my
tournies to try their hand at Esperanza. I once had two TCS campaigns being
run simulteaneously with Esperanza and New Home in the hands of me, the
moderator.
I can only assume that the players didn't want play Esperanza because
of the "passive" nature of it's posistion during the early and middle parts
of any campaign. But, as New Islands' players, they also feared it, not
wanting to be one of the pieces Esperanza picks up during the campaign's
"end game".
Combat in the New Islands consisted of nervous skirmishing and
ferverish diplomacy between those powers. Attacks on any by Old Islands'
players would be screamed about; "Stop it! Don't you know I've got
Esperanza to worry about?!!?"
The system was a boogeyman in the minds of my players for no rational
reason.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:10:30 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: A Merc's guide to clearing minefields
on 2/12/01 10:17 PM, Mark F. Cook at markc@peak.org wrote:
> Even though FAMs like the BLU-82/B 15,000 lb. GPB generate an over
> pressure in excess of 1,000 psi, the pressure wave falls off rapidly
> (I can't remember if it's with the square or cube of distance.) As a result,
> only a small area directly under the point of detonation (the BLU-82 goes
> off above 5 meters above ground, having been triggered by a stand-off
> contact boom) is likely to be cleared. While you might be able to get
> a football field-sized area(*) cleared of mines, the resultant terrain damage
> makes it a cast-iron bitch for infantry to move through. Also, the BLU-82
> is the only FAM in US DoD inventory (of which I'm aware) that is big
> enough to be even moderately useful for this task and it is so large
> that it cannot be deployed from any convention bomber in existance.
> They have to pallet-drop it out of the back of a C-130.
>
The infamous 'Daisy Cutter', Really meant for making landing zones in the
jungle.
Interestingly, I see the Brirish army is looking for a man-portable
thermobaric (fuel-air explosive) weapon to use as a bunker buster.
Youch!
see:
Jane's Defence Weekly
January 17, 2001
British Army seeks bunker-buster
Christopher F Foss JDW Land Forces Editor
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:13:44 -0600
From: "Andy Akins" <andyakins@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: RW Virus Warning
"Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com> wrote:
> Sadly, Microsoft products are (comparitively) easy to setup (I've just
> migrated my primary home PC to Linux from Win95 and it's a nightmare :)) ,
Interestingly, I had the exact opposite experience - Windows products have
always given me problems, whereas Linux was a breeze. But I do know people
with your experience - Linux being a pain and Windows simple.
I'm not a "Microsoft-hater" or a "Linux-lover" - just my own experiences.
But its interesting that you can take two (or more) intelligent people, give
them the same piece of software, and one of them will curse it to damnation
and the other will have no problem. Weird.
I must say, though, I get a little chuckle when all my friends and
co-workers are panicking when a .vbs virus runs through, and I just shrug
and say "KMail doesn't seem to have any problem with it" :)
Andy
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:14:07 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Population stuff
From: hal@buffnet.net
"Coming up with plausible explanations for all the "strange" stuff
makes the game nicely detailed. If only certain size planets could have
only certain attributes, the game would become bland."
"Things such as planetary density and diameter resulting in the planet
being a Gas Giant? <grin>"
Yup. Would believe CT ha no die rolls or tables-look ups to determine
planetary density? It was diameter, atmosphere, and hydrograhics alone.
That allowed the GM a greater hand in detailing HIS campaign.
If you had a small world and didn't want to futz around with gravity
effects, you made it dense enough not to worry about it. It was as easy as
that. Not too many of the "If X and Y, then Z" rules.
Remember, greater precision and scientific accuracy in detailing means
fewer GM perogatives and much less of the "funkiness" that makes the game
nice and quirky.
If we went for full scientific accuracy, you'd be playing Traveller
without jump drives, psionics, contra-grav, thruster plates, artificial
gravity, much weaker manuever drives, honest radiation shileding, man
portable laser weapons a joke, completely incompatible alien biospheres (ie:
nothing local to eat), and hundreds of other changes.
Sound like any fun?
You're trying to "fit" new rules based on new scientific information to
20+ year old data originally created without even using the science of it's
day. In addition, you're asking for full "backwards compatability" between
the two. Sorry, it just isn't going to happen.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 08:16:22 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Land Grab ideas
on 2/13/01 2:21 AM, Trevor, Peter at Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:
>
> Yup, my landgrab of Sting uses Fractal Terrain to generate the
> map. Not that anyone commented on it.
>
> Regards PLST
>
>
Looks good to me. I've ordered FT myself. I just haven't made to the Sword
Worlds yes in my SpinwardMarches.com project.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:21:54 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: RW Virus Warning
on 13/2/01 12:56 am, John Groth at wombat@premier.net wrote:
> AnnaKournikova.jpg.vbs
Email worm:
http://www.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/vbs.sst@mm.html
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:21:54 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Campaign Cartographer
on 13/2/01 1:22 am, Peter Scarrott at peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
wrote:
> Sorry to post this here but thought this might be of interest to those of us
> who use Campaign Cartographer and PC's in our games.
While we're on the subject, I'd like to mention this utility that I found on
John Wood's pages: Gal2CC. It converts sector and subsector maps to CC
format. I'm just playing with the CC demo, but I found it and thought it
would be handy - thanks John.
http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/Supplement12.html
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:21:49 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Looking For...
on 13/2/01 12:11 am, Dominic Mooney at dom@cybergoths.u-net.com wrote:
> The excellent SJ Games Beowulf Deckplans have CT HG2 stats:
>
> A-2211111-01000-10001-0 MCr 59.56 (!) 200 tons
> Crew=4, TL=9, Book 2 design.
>
> I think that the cost may be a result of HG2 - original Book 2 was MCr 37.08
Yow! Those are mighty expensive weapons they've added. Is this an AuricTech
design? :)
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:21:11 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Land Grab ideas
Peter:
I'm not sure how to create a hex-grid over the icosahedral projection...do
you know?
Dean
>>
>> Yup, my landgrab of Sting uses Fractal Terrain to generate the
>> map. Not that anyone commented on it.
>>
>> Regards PLST
>>
>>
>
>Looks good to me. I've ordered FT myself. I just haven't made
>to the Sword
>Worlds yes in my SpinwardMarches.com project.
>
>
>Tod
>
>--
>"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they
>mean to govern.
>They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
> -Daniel Webster
>--
>Tod L Glenn
>webmaster@travellercentral.com
>http://www.travellercentral.com
>http://www.spinwardmarches.com
>http://www.solsec.org
>http://www.grandsurvey.com
>http://travellerguns.com
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:23:39 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Population stuff
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
"Working from my (quite possibly faulty) memory; I believe that the UWP
population figures are based on the PERMANENT (whatever that means :-))
population of the system."
It will depend on how a world decides to desinate it's citizenry. In
the canon, on Tarsus, you have to be desended from someone who lived on the
world at a given date in the past. It's going to vary from planet to
planet. The Imperium doesn't mind.
"Because they're over the XT line, and so they're on Imperial
territory, not planetary. I agree that they should be counted, but that's
why they aren't."
I lived and worked in Qatar for over six months but wasn't counted in
any Qatari census. If the local government doesn't provide long term
contract employees with any services and instead their empoyer does, then
why would the contractors be upset if they weren't veiwed as citizens in the
eyes of some census? They're just working there, the could care less about
the natives.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:28:04 -0500
From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
Subject: Non-humanoid aliens (was Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3647)
Peter Trevor wrote:
>Yup, that's right: the Federation are racist! Any alien that's
>not a humanoid is confined to a box so as not to upset any
>humanoid's sensibilities. They also have to sit at the back of
>the bus and are not allowed to use public drinking fountains.
>You can be blue, have a pasty on the head, or a funny nose, and
>that's okay ... but be non-humanoid and you suffer the Federation
>aparthid.
To be fair, the non-humanoid alien in question was so
mind-bendingly alien that just looking at it would
cause insanity in many humanoid races. And it thought
humanoids were ugly too! :-)
Walt Smith
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:40:23 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
Terry Carlino wrote:
> It's not conical, (It was published in the Variant section of JTAS,) but in
> "Imperial Law; Before the Docket in the Third Imperium" I postulate that
> Imperial courts do not typically impose punitive damages.
I'll look it up when I have some time. Didn't realize you were speaking about
YTU.
> I might even go
> farther and say that although individuals can sue a Megacorp, the usual
> Megacorp response is to use every legal means to defend themselves.
Where could an individual sue an MC? What Court? An Imperium Court
I assume? What is the legal basis of it's foundation? Are Imperial agencies
subject to the jurisdiction as well, i.e., could an Imperial citizen sue the
Imperium or an Imperial agency (which will necessarily include nobles)
in an Imperial court?
> What
> this means is that no individual could survive the 25 to 75 year long trial
> that would result from a Megacorp lawsuit.
Why would it take that long? And we have Anagathics. And the heirs
of the injured individual have an interest too.
> That's why the typical Civil
> Contract Court case is between Corporations and can last generations. 3I
> corporations (unlike U.S. companies) take the long view, and will remain in
> court as long as they might possibly win.
Well, it isn't up to them. It's up to the lawmaker (Emperor?) that
creates the courts and laws the courts enforce. If the court system allows
a case to be dragged out, then so be it. But there are all kinds of ways
to speed things up. Limiting the time and possible scope for appeals
of right is a real easy way. Where you have nobles that get involved in
a court system, it becomes very likely, IMHO, that appeals of any
court decision will only be possible when permission is granted from
the relevant noble authority.
Another potential problem: Canonically, the Emperor owns a 2% stake
in all the MCs and LICs. So, the Imperium itself has an interest in one
of the litigants. That's a pretty clear bias and would make the courts
a complete joke.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:44:38 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
"IMTY, there are special ships for boarding. Fast and highly
maneuverable (for a very short time) they have a universal docking collar
and a high speed plasma torch cutter (a la Aliens) to make entry. A squad
or two is carried."
Mr. Glenn,
While I believe that boarding forces are ferried to their target by
small craft, HG2 doesn't mandate in the inclusion of small craft in the ship
design process. A milion DTon vessel can be "legally" designed without a
single gig. This is silly and should be corrected, but is part of the
rules.
I also believe that contested boarding actions would be rare. The
condition of the ship that allows it to be boarded; no drives, no weapons,
abandoned by the rest of it's forces, make it a more likely that a boarding
party would arrive to recieve the crew's surrender.
During contested actions, I have toyed with the idea of breaching
charges. Cutting through a hatch or portion of hull, however quickly, would
let the defenders know where your assault is stepping off from.
Instead, the boarding force's small craft could deploy many short
range, limpet-like, breaching charges that are directed to attach themselves
to the target vessel's hull in many places. All are detonated at the same
time and the defenders then must choose which breaches to defend and which
to ignore.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 07:48:46
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
At 10:02 PM 2/13/2001 +1300, you wrote:
>> Dare I ask. I'm not sure TML members should be interbreeding.
>
>Hmm, Kenji Aradia Berry anyone ?
>
>(apologies to those named and their significant others)
Why apologize? After all, I *am* married to Kiri. :)
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:09:20 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Land Grab ideas
Dean Jones wrote:
> I'm not sure how to create a hex-grid over the icosahedral
> projection...do you know?
Okay, you caught me. This feature does not yet exist in FT so I
cheated: I used Paint Shop Pro to merge the output of FT with a
blank hex-grid. :-P
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:21:32 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: Megacorp info
> > Good points. (What are some sources of info for megacorps? I've
> > got some (JTAS article on SuSAG, core rules,etc.), and will have to
> > review them, but maybe there's some I haven't seen that would help.
>
> Depending on which "core rules" you mean I think there was an
> article on megacorps in one of the original LBB supplements (one
> of the two Library Datas) ... which will be in the Classic
> Reprints. I've also drawn on personal experiences with a number
> of RL multinationals ... General Motors, EDS, half a dozen
> merchant banks, Cable & Wireless (with several units in the
> Caribbean plus Yemen, Maldives, Indonesia, Macau, and the
> Soloman Islands*), etc.
>
GT: Far Trader refers to a Shadowrun product called "Corporate Shadowfiles"
as a reference to how the big boys operate (it's listed as "Corporate
Shadowars" but corrected in SJG's errata page). It contains a lot of
general info about big corps and how they operate that is readliy applicable
to Traveller. Much of it would be found in a typical finance textbook. It
also includes some useful rules for monitoring the relative strengths of
rival firms that can be adopted with some minor changes (and if you're
willing to keep track of the stats, but hey, we're talking Traveller aren't
we?). If you've integrated hacking/cyberpunk themes into your campaign,
they will be even more apropos.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:25:20
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Population stuff
At 04:14 PM 2/13/2001 -0000, you wrote:
> Yup. Would believe CT ha no die rolls or tables-look ups to determine
>planetary density? It was diameter, atmosphere, and hydrograhics alone.
>That allowed the GM a greater hand in detailing HIS campaign.
Yes, and many of us immediately began figuring out the correct gravity,
etc. for our planets.
> If you had a small world and didn't want to futz around with gravity
>effects, you made it dense enough not to worry about it. It was as easy as
>that. Not too many of the "If X and Y, then Z" rules.
Of course you ended up with Star Trek, where every world was Just Like Home
except for the orange plants. No fun 'tall!
Just for fun, I figured out how dense a Size 1 world would have to be to
have 1g surface gravity. 43.9g/cc^3. I can't find *anything* to justify
that. Perhaps the real engineers can help. Even if this world was made of
solid gold the surface gravity would be only .34g!
Low gravity, harsh conditions...these are part of the sf environment!
> Remember, greater precision and scientific accuracy in detailing means
>fewer GM perogatives and much less of the "funkiness" that makes the game
>nice and quirky.
I must disagree! I find more detail opens new doors. For example, doing
Heya I was amazed to find out that the planet suffers from near constant
storms. Thus were born several things.. fasciweed, flying carnivores
riding the winds, and the mood of the place.. it's look descriptive text..
all from one "hard XYZ" calculation.
> If we went for full scientific accuracy, you'd be playing Traveller
>without jump drives, psionics, contra-grav, thruster plates, artificial
>gravity, much weaker manuever drives, honest radiation shileding, man
>portable laser weapons a joke, completely incompatible alien biospheres (ie:
>nothing local to eat), and hundreds of other changes.
Except that those are all scientific advances. Apples and oranges to
system generation. And I've seen campaigns that used many of those ideas
succeed wildly.
> Sound like any fun?
Two words: "Blue Planet."
> You're trying to "fit" new rules based on new scientific information to
>20+ year old data originally created without even using the science of it's
>day. In addition, you're asking for full "backwards compatability" between
>the two. Sorry, it just isn't going to happen.
Yes, but we can change things that aren't already carved in stone. For
example, it is simple enough to change stellar types, play with sizes,
stretch to get the atmosphere to .51atm to justify that "thin" rating in CT.
You can also use that hard stuff to explain the old inconsistencies. Why
does world A have Atm 6 and a Pop of 1, while B has Atm 7 and Pop A? Well,
A is too cold, or hot, or the local plant life is incompatible with the
human gut. B, on the other hand, is not only rich in resources, but has
edible local life forms.
This doesn't destroy the sense of wonder.. rather it makes the exceptions
more interesting! In my Lunion subsector, Tenalphi has a Pop 1 simply
because colonies keep vanishing! Four so far. No known survivors. Just..
gone. The current population is an advance party for a fifth effort.
Perhaps the PCs are part of it.
If you keep breaking the rules of planetary formation, you lose that feel
that you are visiting other worlds. I remember reading that the hardest
thing for the American woman who spent months on Mir to do when she got
home was remembering that things fell down! She kept trying to "park"
things in mid air! People from worlds with different g's will react very
differently to falling. People from worlds with bright stars might get
depressed if forced to spend to long on a world circling a dim M3v. (The
"Seattle Syndrome" writ large.)
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
- Lisa Simpson, Overachiever
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 09:44:50 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR
Jeff Greenly <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu> writes:
>Grants Pass, OR---Where the men are men and the sheep are really women who
>haven't shaved in a *long* time... It's soooo natural, dontcha know... (I
>have family there, so I know of whence I speak)
You're a brave man to admit even a passing familiarity there, Jeff! :^)
I have a couple of friends that grew up there, on a sheep ranch, no
less! They claim they know every sheep joke in the realm of human
knowledge.
>OB Traveller: Um... Strange or repugnant local customs on a world that the
>PCs are visiting? It's a stretch...
Or even just strange and/or repugnant *rural* customs "discovered" by
long-time urbanite PCs who head out into the country side of their own
world for the first time.
Case in point: a couple decades ago, my older cousin (who also grew up
in Oregon) brought his new bride back here for a visit. He'd moved to New
York City and married her. She had lived in metro NYC her entire life and
her only knowledge of the Pacific Northwest was from TV. She expected
stagecoaches and rampaging Apaches or some such, and was much
surprised that we had paved roads and electricity!!
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:55:36 -0500
From: Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com>
Subject: RE: Land Grab ideas- Fractal Terrain generators
Something that I have been playing with a lot lately...
http://www.lysator.liu.se/~johol/fwmg/fwmg.html
It is a fractal worldmap generator cgi available for FREE over the net. It
seems to do most of the stuff that FT does and I don't have to get a wintel
box to run it.
Glenn
______________________________________________________
Glenn E. Myers
ANSYS Inc. Email: glenn.myers@ansys.com
275 Technology Drive Phone: (724) 514-2913
Canonsburg, PA 15317 Fax: (724) 514-3118
______________________________________________________
- -----Original Message-----
From: hal@buffnet.net [mailto:hal@buffnet.net]
Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 3:48 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Land Grab ideas
Hello Folks,
If anyone is interested...
Profantasy created a program titled CAMPAIGN CARTOGRAPHER that permits
people to create their own maps. What people may not be aware of, is that
Profantasy also created a program titled FRACTAL TERRAIN. It will generate
a world randomly based on criteria entered by the user. Once the world is
generated, it will also export the data to the Campaign Cartographer in map
format usable by any Game Master. As a final bonus? If you have access to
any program that permits you to make animations, the FRACTAL TERRAIN
program will export any number of Bitmap pictures or Gif Pictures for use
in animation. In short? Anyone can create a map of a world in seconds, an
animation sequence in less than 10 minutes, and have it all be true to the
parameters generated in TRAVELLER based on percentage of landmass,
percentage of water cover, elevations both below and above sea level and so
forth. Truely a good pair of programs to own!
Hal
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3657
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3658
Date: | 2/13/01 11:19:39 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 13 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3658
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Population stuff
Re: Classical Music
Re: boarding actions
About Heya
Re: Land Grab ideas
Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: Classical Music
Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
Re: boarding actions
Re: RW Virus Warning
Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
Star System Generation
Re: RW Virus Warning
Re: A Merc's guide to clearing minefields
Re: Population stuff
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: CT fonts question
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:10:25 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: RE: Population stuff
Hello Folks,
> I lived and worked in Qatar for over six months but wasn't counted in
>any Qatari census. If the local government doesn't provide long term
>contract employees with any services and instead their empoyer does, then
>why would the contractors be upset if they weren't veiwed as citizens in the
>eyes of some census? They're just working there, the could care less about
>the natives.
Don't get me wrong here - I'm not looking at the issue of starport
population as a nit-picky detail so much as I'm looking at it as a Far
Trader Issue. If a planetary population is listed as being 1 (ie, 1 to 10
people) and the starport there is listed as a type IV or B class, you know
that there are more people there generating a commercial market than what
the rules allow for. In that one instance of the nature preserve, we have
facilities that are able to *make* ships. What exactly is involved in the
making of a ship? You would need the fabricators, the welders, the
electricians, the plumbers, the materials specialists and so on. Why on
(off) earth would you build a type IV (or B class) starport in an area that
doesn't have more than 10 people?!!!
Sure, making stories fit the inconsistancies is a fun thing - but lets
face it. If you hate the "handwaving" of "because I said so" in Fantasy
games, does calling it Science Fiction make it any better? In those areas
where you can stay within the realms of reality when building your world, I
say "bully for you!". On the other hand, as Doug Berry pointed out, worlds
where the planet is a size 1 planet that also happen to have a 1g gravity
field end up with a density that is totally unworkable.
For what it is worth, I took the time to do some research on stars and
such for a planetary generation program (this before GURPS FIRST IN was
published). According to some sources - a type M star does not put out
enough energy in specific wavelengths for plants as we know them to
flourish. This makes life bearing photosynthesis based plants <cough>
impossible. Add into the mix the fact that the planets need to be too
close in (ie tidally locked) in order to get enough "heat" from the M class
star, and you can see that Traveller today needs a bit of hand waving.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:07:04 -0700 (MST)
From: pengebos@nmsu.edu
Subject: Re: Classical Music
> > > "Kill the Wabbit, kill the Wabbit..."
> > A few years back, PBS ran the Ring of the Nibelung cycle. All through it, for
> > some reason, I kept thinking of Bugs and Elmer . . .
> > "What's Opera, Doc?" has warped me, I'm afraid -- I cannot hear Wagner
> > without thinging or Warner Brothers' cartoon characters.
> >
> > LKW
As an amusing asside, right after I read Loren's post, I turned the
channel of the TV and guess what they had on the Cartoon Network?
And I didn't have a tape in the VCR to record it :<
Peter Engebos <pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth <degaalth@prodigy.net>
http://www.geocities.com/degaalth/
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our diposal hundred megawatt laser
beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say
we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his SMITE button
for our fire control system"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:17:59 -0600
From: "Andy Akins" <andyakins@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
FYI:
The upcoming GURPS Traveller:Modular Cutter has a cutter module used for
boarding - contains clamps for grabbing on to a hull and plasma torches for
slicing it open.The actual components used for boarding have stats provided,
so you could design a "breaching pod" or another dedicated ship.
Andy Akins
co-author, GURPS Traveller:Modular Cutter
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:08:30 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: About Heya
Douglas,
What system did you sue to generate heya? i have the core rules of traveller
but i want to go beyond that for Rio.
thanks for the info
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 1:25 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Population stuff
At 04:14 PM 2/13/2001 -0000, you wrote:
> Yup. Would believe CT ha no die rolls or tables-look ups to determine
>planetary density? It was diameter, atmosphere, and hydrograhics alone.
>That allowed the GM a greater hand in detailing HIS campaign.
Yes, and many of us immediately began figuring out the correct gravity,
etc. for our planets.
> If you had a small world and didn't want to futz around with gravity
>effects, you made it dense enough not to worry about it. It was as easy as
>that. Not too many of the "If X and Y, then Z" rules.
Of course you ended up with Star Trek, where every world was Just Like Home
except for the orange plants. No fun 'tall!
Just for fun, I figured out how dense a Size 1 world would have to be to
have 1g surface gravity. 43.9g/cc^3. I can't find *anything* to justify
that. Perhaps the real engineers can help. Even if this world was made of
solid gold the surface gravity would be only .34g!
Low gravity, harsh conditions...these are part of the sf environment!
> Remember, greater precision and scientific accuracy in detailing means
>fewer GM perogatives and much less of the "funkiness" that makes the game
>nice and quirky.
I must disagree! I find more detail opens new doors. For example, doing
Heya I was amazed to find out that the planet suffers from near constant
storms. Thus were born several things.. fasciweed, flying carnivores
riding the winds, and the mood of the place.. it's look descriptive text..
all from one "hard XYZ" calculation.
> If we went for full scientific accuracy, you'd be playing Traveller
>without jump drives, psionics, contra-grav, thruster plates, artificial
>gravity, much weaker manuever drives, honest radiation shileding, man
>portable laser weapons a joke, completely incompatible alien biospheres
(ie:
>nothing local to eat), and hundreds of other changes.
Except that those are all scientific advances. Apples and oranges to
system generation. And I've seen campaigns that used many of those ideas
succeed wildly.
> Sound like any fun?
Two words: "Blue Planet."
> You're trying to "fit" new rules based on new scientific information
to
>20+ year old data originally created without even using the science of it's
>day. In addition, you're asking for full "backwards compatability" between
>the two. Sorry, it just isn't going to happen.
Yes, but we can change things that aren't already carved in stone. For
example, it is simple enough to change stellar types, play with sizes,
stretch to get the atmosphere to .51atm to justify that "thin" rating in CT.
You can also use that hard stuff to explain the old inconsistencies. Why
does world A have Atm 6 and a Pop of 1, while B has Atm 7 and Pop A? Well,
A is too cold, or hot, or the local plant life is incompatible with the
human gut. B, on the other hand, is not only rich in resources, but has
edible local life forms.
This doesn't destroy the sense of wonder.. rather it makes the exceptions
more interesting! In my Lunion subsector, Tenalphi has a Pop 1 simply
because colonies keep vanishing! Four so far. No known survivors. Just..
gone. The current population is an advance party for a fifth effort.
Perhaps the PCs are part of it.
If you keep breaking the rules of planetary formation, you lose that feel
that you are visiting other worlds. I remember reading that the hardest
thing for the American woman who spent months on Mir to do when she got
home was remembering that things fell down! She kept trying to "park"
things in mid air! People from worlds with different g's will react very
differently to falling. People from worlds with bright stars might get
depressed if forced to spend to long on a world circling a dim M3v. (The
"Seattle Syndrome" writ large.)
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"I created the universe; give ME the gift certificate!!"
- Lisa Simpson, Overachiever
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:20:19 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Land Grab ideas
on 2/13/01 8:21 AM, Jones, Dean at Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com wrote:
>
> Peter:
>
> I'm not sure how to create a hex-grid over the icosahedral projection...do
> you know?
>
> Dean
>
If you have photoshop, it easy to add the hex grid as a layer. I make the
transparency of the grid about 50% before I flatten the image and export as
a jpeg.
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:27:02 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
Hello Folks,
Based on how some of the Traveller Universes being discussed are run, I
figured I'd ask this nice innocent question <grin>.
What exactly are the Imperial Rules of Trade War?
If I am a star port that sells service to one of the combatants, can they
in turn include me as a legitimate target as being a support unit in this
war? What about Trade Brokers? Are they fair game in this trade war? What
about transportation services who move cargoes from manufacturers to the
starport loading bays? After all, I am carrying "trade war supplies".
Somehow, I get the feeling that if one is to be involved in a "legal" trade
war, then you invite the fact that not only are you legally opening up your
opponents to the "fair game" clause, you are opening up *your* units to the
same. If the trade war looks like it will spell defeat for some company,
might not that same company think "if I can't survive, neither will you!"?
The next thing - "what is the legal size of a company before it is not
permitted to participate in a legally sanctioned trade war?" Why are two
megacorporations allowed to battle it out, yet to small time companies with
"Inc" at the end of their names not allowed?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:24:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> At 10:02 PM 2/13/2001 +1300, you wrote:
>
> >> Dare I ask. I'm not sure TML members should be interbreeding.
> >
> >Hmm, Kenji Aradia Berry anyone ?
> >
> >(apologies to those named and their significant others)
>
> Why apologize? After all, I *am* married to Kiri. :)
>
LOL! but that's the mirror-universe Kiri! (Or maybe I am.)
Actually, Kenji is a boy's name and Aradia is a girl's name... are y'all
implying that I'm the "mother" of the Sayat, whom IIRC are "differently
gendered"? That's a really scary thought!
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:27:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
> At 10:02 PM 2/13/2001 +1300, you wrote:
>
> >> Dare I ask. I'm not sure TML members should be interbreeding.
> >
> >Hmm, Kenji Aradia Berry anyone ?
> >
> >(apologies to those named and their significant others)
>
My other question is whether it was Kenji or Doug that carried this child
since it is a medical certainty that I can't. Kenji is probably the
healthiest of all of us...
Kiri, LOL again.
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:22:40 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Classical Music
I actually have several of the Bugs Bunny songs as MP3s on my puter here. I
love them
Elmer: Spear and magic helmet!
Bugs Spear and magic helmet?
Elmer Spear and magic helmet!
Bugs Magic Helmet?
Elmer Magic helmet!
Bugs Magic helmet (said with the enflection that elmer is a nut case) 8)
Hasta
- -----Original Message-----
From: pengebos@nmsu.edu [mailto:pengebos@nmsu.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 10:07 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Classical Music
> > > "Kill the Wabbit, kill the Wabbit..."
> > A few years back, PBS ran the Ring of the Nibelung cycle. All through
it, for
> > some reason, I kept thinking of Bugs and Elmer . . .
> > "What's Opera, Doc?" has warped me, I'm afraid -- I cannot hear Wagner
> > without thinging or Warner Brothers' cartoon characters.
> >
> > LKW
As an amusing asside, right after I read Loren's post, I turned the
channel of the TV and guess what they had on the Cartoon Network?
And I didn't have a tape in the VCR to record it :<
Peter Engebos <pengebos@nmsu.edu>
T'Sarith, Lord deGaalth <degaalth@prodigy.net>
http://www.geocities.com/degaalth/
"Here at Ortillery Command we have at our diposal hundred megawatt laser
beams, mach 20 titanium rods and guided thermonuclear bombs. Some people say
we think that we're God. We're not God. We just borrowed his SMITE button
for our fire control system"
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:31:37 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
On 12 Feb 2001, at 12:36, Jonathan McDermott wrote:
> The only trouble would be that there's so much information about Terran
> maritime pirates that it wouldn't map too well over to mostly Vilani,
> Vilani-tradition space pirates. There are certainly parallels, and one can
> extrapolate from there. Things like motivations for becoming a pirate,
> symbols, and lifestyles would be pretty well universal.
Not that I dare open the pir^H^H^H E.C.M. debate, but would the Terran
influence be seen after the diaspora and the Rule of Man. The Long
Night ECMs would have had both sources for inspiration and could have
combined them into their style.
(Grist for classic shows like "Pirates of the Blood Main", or
romanticized in musical comedy, "The Pirates of Porozlo".)
Rob D.
- --
Rob
What part of 'gestalt' don't you understand?
Welchen Teil von 'gestalt' verstehen Sie nicht?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:40:12 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: boarding actions
I know this is going to sound silly but...
Don't they have transfer corridors that connect airlocks from ship to ship?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:47:27 -0600
From: Eris Reddoch <eris@pcola.gulf.net>
Subject: Re: RW Virus Warning
Andy Akins wrote:
> "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com> wrote:
> > Sadly, Microsoft products are (comparitively) easy to setup (I've just
> > migrated my primary home PC to Linux from Win95 and it's a nightmare :)) ,
It cuts both ways.
> Interestingly, I had the exact opposite experience - Windows products have
> always given me problems, whereas Linux was a breeze. But I do know people
> with your experience - Linux being a pain and Windows simple.
I've had experiences where both were pains and both were simple, and I
can say the same for OS/2. Heck even DOS could be a real pain to
configure. It all depends on the hardware and software you are using
and what exactly you want your system to do.
ObTrav: The new system upgrade on your ship's computer turns into a
real nightmare and even your Computer-3 PC can't get the Navigation
program to work right with the new system software...<g>
> I must say, though, I get a little chuckle when all my friends and
> co-workers are panicking when a .vbs virus runs through, and I just shrug
> and say "KMail doesn't seem to have any problem with it" :)
Yep. However, now that Linux is getting more popular on the desktop, I'm
afraid we're going to start seeing some Linux viruses. <sigh> Oh well,
boyz will be boyz I guess.
Eris,
still using OS/2 for much of my work
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:47:39 -0000
From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
Ok this might start another can of worms, but IMTU (_possibly_ backed by
canon, I don't know) starships MUST be manned to take enter jump space. So
your suggestion is impossible. I never really sat down before and worked
out why? Now I'm pretty sure this must have come up during the Jump Torpedo
discussions in the dim past (certainly before I joined this list).
So Question to all you TML Great Old Ones, why doesn't this work.
- - - - - - - - - start original - - - - - - - - - - - - -- --
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:24:31 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
"Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>>2.) ... the jump drive is turned off?
>
>No one knows, no-one has EVER (reliably) reported back. However if you are
>volunteering to test it, give me a call :-).
So no Imperial Research Station has ever bought a hundred surplus
scout ships from the IISS, rigged them up with very powerful beacons
and an automated timer on the jump drive, and fired them off on
unmanned missions into jumpspace then waited to see if/when they
reappeared?
Stephen
- - - - - - - - - - end original - - - - - - - - - - - -
Peter (who is really hoping he isn't going to start _ANOTHER_ flamewar here
:-))
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk (Trav & AD&D)
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
And life is harsh and rarely fair.
Never appeal to a man's 'better nature.' He may not have one.
Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love (By Robert.Heinlan)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:51:06 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> What exactly are the Imperial Rules of Trade War?
Whatever the subsector duke, sector duke, or archduke says they are.
Alternatively: Whatever you can get away with.
It's a government of sophonts, not of laws.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:54:28 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Star System Generation
Hello Folks,
Once upon a time, I stumbled over ACCRETE, a system generation program
based upon the acrete theory of stellar evolution. In it, one interesting
premise was that any given star will have a certain amount of mass/matter
as part of its birthing process. Some fall into the star to become (duh)
the star, while the rest becomes the remaining matter - namely planets,
planetoids, and comets. Has anyone ever tried an approach to random star
system generation where you start off with X mass, and deduct the masses of
each individual planet as you create them?
Example: Suppose you have 100 units of mass (ficticious units please, my
head hurts right now). Planet 1 uses 5 masses, planet 2 uses 8 masses,
planet 3 uses 12 masses, planet 4 uses 32 masses. Up to now, you've used
57 units. Any remaining planets need to use no more than 43 units...
Thoughts?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 10:55:38 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: RW Virus Warning
Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com> writes:
>Step one to avoid this virus...
>
>DON'T USE OUTLOOK!
>
>The preferred email program of virus writers world wide....
Boy, you've got *THAT* right! Outlook does everything but post
your e-mail address to the web with a note saying, "I love to be
victimized!"
For those of you that insist on continuing to use Outlook, some
day you'll come home and find:
1) A new "WELCOME" mat in front of the front door.
2) The front door wide open (and obviously unlocked from the inside.)
3) All of your valuables gone.
4) Your artwork defaced.
5) Graffiti on the walls.
6) All of your dishes and cutlery dirty or broken.
7) The filling sucked out of all your Twinkies.
8) The sugar in the surgar bowl replaced with rat poison.
9) Your PC hard drive re-formatted.
10) Your VCR re-programmed so that it only receives QVC,
C-SPAN, and the Weather Channel.
11) Your goldfish have been replaced with Piranhas.
12) Your (neutered, male) dog is pregnant.
...it'll all be Outlook's fault.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:04:55 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: A Merc's guide to clearing minefields
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>on 2/12/01 10:17 PM, Mark F. Cook at markc@peak.org wrote:
>
> > Even though FAMs like the BLU-82/B 15,000 lb. GPB generate an over
> > pressure in excess of 1,000 psi, the pressure wave falls off rapidly
> > (I can't remember if it's with the square or cube of distance.)...
<SNIP>
>The infamous 'Daisy Cutter', Really meant for making landing zones in the
>jungle.
It's kind of funny. That was one of the primary functions of the Daisy Cutter
but, like many military tools, it works better in theory than in practice.
I have a couple of older friends that are both 'Nam vets and have deployed
into zone cleared by BLU-82/B drops. They both said it's incredibly
dangerous and the damn bomb turns a couple hundred yards of jungle
into a couple hundred yards of Pungi Sticks. Even though the trees and
shrubs are blasted to pieces, the debris that remains is usually too thick
and tangled for a 'copter to actually land. As a result, the ground pounders
have to *JUMP* into this sharp, shredded field of lumber of 1-3 meters in
the air. The odds of acquiring one or more new orifices is uncomfortably
high. :^(
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:04:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Population stuff
In mail you write:
> Don't get me wrong here - I'm not looking at the issue of starport
> population as a nit-picky detail so much as I'm looking at it as a Far
> Trader Issue. If a planetary population is listed as being 1 (ie, 1 to 10
> people) and the starport there is listed as a type IV or B class, you know
> that there are more people there generating a commercial market than what
> the rules allow for. In that one instance of the nature preserve, we have
> facilities that are able to *make* ships. What exactly is involved in the
> making of a ship? You would need the fabricators, the welders, the
> electricians, the plumbers, the materials specialists and so on. Why on
> (off) earth would you build a type IV (or B class) starport in an area that
> doesn't have more than 10 people?!!!
So they can repair the cruise liners that visit.
> For what it is worth, I took the time to do some research on stars and
> such for a planetary generation program (this before GURPS FIRST IN was
> published). According to some sources - a type M star does not put out
> enough energy in specific wavelengths for plants as we know them to
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> flourish. This makes life bearing photosynthesis based plants <cough>
> impossible.
No. It makes ones using the photosynthetic reaction we know of
impossible. That doesn't mean that there isn't one that'll work.
Also, for many type M stars, due to things like flares, the wavelengths
available *shift* a lot. Which means there might be plants that use the
much higher energy radiation when it's available and go mostly dormant
in between.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:12:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
In mail you write:
> At 10:02 PM 2/13/2001 +1300, you wrote:
>
>>> Dare I ask. I'm not sure TML members should be interbreeding.
>>
>>Hmm, Kenji Aradia Berry anyone ?
>>
>>(apologies to those named and their significant others)
>
> Why apologize? After all, I *am* married to Kiri. :)
Does Kirsten know? <g>
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:16:05 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: CT fonts question
- --part1_e5.24302ce.27bae1f5_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 2/5/2001 5:43:04 PM Central Standard Time,
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:
>
> Adobe's Optima is a very close match, if not the same font.
>
>
Optima from the period (1977-1980) is the "true" type font. Eterna is a good
clone.
Marc
- --part1_e5.24302ce.27bae1f5_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 2/5/2001 5:43:04 PM Central Standard Time,
johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu writes:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">
Adobe's Optima is a very close match, if not the same font.
</BLOCKQUOTE>
Optima from the period (1977-1980) is the "true" type font. Eterna is a good
clone.
Marc
- --part1_e5.24302ce.27bae1f5_boundary--
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3658
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3659
Date: | 2/13/01 1:51:29 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 13 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3659
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Azhanti HL
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: boarding actions
Re: Population stuff
Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
Re: boarding actions
Re: boarding actions
How a Densitometer Works
Re: boarding actions
Re: How a Densitometer Works
Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
Re: boarding actions
Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches
Forboldn (was re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR)
Re: boarding actions
Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
Re: Landmine clearing...
RE: boarding actions
Re: Megacorp info
Re: boarding actions
Re: Population stuff
Re: Deep Space Jumps
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:16:04 EST
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Azhanti HL
- --part1_ce.109211ce.27bae1f4_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 2/2/2001 2:32:22 PM Central Standard Time,
mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk writes:
> > > I hope this new reprinting of the CT books hasn't dropped the value of
> > > my lovely (virtually mint) AHL
> > >
>
You know, the reprint will show what goes into AHL, but it doesn't actually
have die cut counters or fullsize maps.
- --part1_ce.109211ce.27bae1f4_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
In a message dated 2/2/2001 2:32:22 PM Central Standard Time,
mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk writes:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">&gt; &gt; I hope this new reprinting of the CT books hasn't dropped the value of
&gt; &gt; my lovely (virtually mint) AHL
&gt; &gt;
</BLOCKQUOTE>
You know, the reprint will show what goes into AHL, but it doesn't actually
have die cut counters or fullsize maps.
- --part1_ce.109211ce.27bae1f4_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:22:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
>
> > At 10:02 PM 2/13/2001 +1300, you wrote:
> >
> >>> Dare I ask. I'm not sure TML members should be interbreeding.
> >>
> >>Hmm, Kenji Aradia Berry anyone ?
> >>
> >>(apologies to those named and their significant others)
> >
> > Why apologize? After all, I *am* married to Kiri. :)
>
> Does Kirsten know? <g>
>
I think she was there when that happened...
(hard to remember... there were so many people...)
Kiri, lol
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:31:04 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
on 13/2/01 6:40 pm, hal@buffnet.net at hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> I know this is going to sound silly but...
>
> Don't they have transfer corridors that connect airlocks from ship to ship?
Yes corridors themselves airlocked so that the boarding party can forcibly
blow the hatches of the ship being attacked. They do IMTU.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:40:55 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Population stuff
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
"Yes, and many of us immediately began figuring out the correct
gravity, etc. for our planets."
"Of course you ended up with Star Trek, where every world was Just Like
Home."
Mr. Berry,
I heartily with every last one of your points. Due to my poor writing
style and tendency to lose my train of thought while typing my replies, my
ideas and points either get lost or do not show up at all.
My Traveller universe is NOT coated with a thick layer of "handwavium"
that allows me to ignore unpleasent details. I find most of the fun in Our
Olde Game encompasses the art of coming up with plausible excuses for quirky
details.
I had read Hal's posts (sorry, Hal, I'd used your last name but don't
know it) to mean that he couldn't understand why a world with Class A port
could have no inhabitants, or why a world with no water has 10 billion
inhabitants. When he mentioned G:Space's use of eviromental factors to
model world population, I wanted to point that he shouldn't depend on rules
and tables to model or explain everything perfectly. Rather, as the GM he
should find explanations and reasons for why things are the way they are and
not ignore them because "table X sez world Y can only have population Z".
He should embrace the quirks and then provide the details.
This simple point was buried under my poor writing style.
Coming up with the details is so much fun! Tidally locked world
orbitting a M class star with the "wrong" light for Terra-type plants?
Well, there should either be one heck of a hydroponics industry or a lot of
trade. Coming up with those examples makes Our Olde Game the pleasure it
is!
Larsen
P.S. IMTU Tenalphi is an Ancient's site, explaining the class A port (to
support the research), the lack of population (the Imperium hasn't cleared
it for settlers), AND the jump-5 Xboat link to Strouden. I love your
vanished colonies too. I'm adding them to MTU, if you don't mind. Their
diappearences made the Imperium finally do the extensive survey that turned
up the Ancient's site.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:44:36 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] The Flaming Eye
>From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
"(Grist for classic shows like "Pirates of the Blood Main", or
romanticized in musical comedy, "The Pirates of Porozlo".)"
Give him a keyboard kill, Mr. Scorer. I'm a on again/off again member
of a local Gilbert & Sullivan society. I'm dabbing up the coffee right
now...
Laren
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:01:24 -0600
From: "Andy Akins" <andyakins@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> I know this is going to sound silly but...
>
> Don't they have transfer corridors that connect airlocks from ship to
ship?
Absolutely. And for normal ship transfer, they're used all the time.
Boarding clamps are for when your marines want to enter the engine room and
the engine room doesn't have an airlock. Rather than boarding in an airlock
and having to deal with those pesky security troops on the way to
engineering, why not breach the engine room wall and just march in?
Now of course this is a gross oversimplification. First the boarding craft
must survive the trip to the target vessel, which unless disabled is gonna
be dodging and/or firing. The target vessel certainly can post troops in the
engine room. Heck - if boarders are incoming, battle dress troops can be
deployed _outside_ the target vessel, to attach limpets to boarding craft
and sever the clamps.
Who knows how often this insane activity is performed - in the heat of
battle I must guess not very often, too big of a chance of a major CF.
However, I could see a HRT unit performing such actions on hijacked liners,
or space stations. Pirates (if you use them) would use them to steal ships,
etc...
Andy Akins
co-author GURPS Traveller:Modular Cutter
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:11:56 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
>on 13/2/01 6:40 pm, hal@buffnet.net at hal@buffnet.net wrote:
"I know this is going to sound silly but...
Don't they have transfer corridors that connect airlocks from ship to ship?"
"Yes corridors themselves airlocked so that the boarding party can
forcibly blow the hatches of the ship being attacked. They do IMTU."
Gordon."
I know that Marines prefer the "hey-diddle-diddle, straight up the
middle" style of tactics, but it seems to me, given a set number of airlocks
on a ship that know's it is to be boarded, that sending in your assault
force through said airlocks is a good way to play "Somme in Space".
A couple three "Welcome Wagon" members with battledress and FGMPs might
view your assualt force coming through the blown airlock like shooting fish
in a barrel, despite the assualting force's arms and armor. IMHO, a
contested boarding action would resemble urban infantry combat. The several
TML members who served in the infantry could possibly fill us in on that.
The use of breaching charges on the ship's hull to create many entry
points would keep the defenders guessing as to where you'll enter and thus
lessen the chance of booby traps and prepared defenses. At least until you
reach the bridge, CIC, or main engineering that is.
For the assualting force, the whole affair might be a fine line between
using enough firepower to root out the defenders while not damaging the ship
too badly.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:31:57 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: How a Densitometer Works
How does a densitometer works.
It's sending out a signal that penetrates stuff, but rebounds to a
signal
reader, right? That means, when it reaches material with density X,
it can't penetrate it and the signal rebounds. If it doesn't reach
density
X, how does the signal get back?
Can a signal/radiation/whatever only allow part of a signal through
and have some of it, depending on the density of a material, bounce
back to the signal receiver? Aren't we talking about some strong
and probably very hazardous radiation? Or is it something like
neutrinos
(but those would need something on the other side to see how many
made it through wouldn't they?
If not, how can a hand-held style densitometer work?
Assuming that it can, it seems to me that a densitometer can only
measure
up to density X, then nothing, within the limit of it's range. The
information
it gets back is only relevant for the position it was in at the time.
So to use
it, you would place it all around an object recording the signal return
and
have the thing put together a 3-D picture, possibly in holographic form.
It just seems to me, based on my very limited technical knowledge
that a densitometer can't work without some 'help'.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:33:02 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
>From: "Andy Akins" <andyakins@earthlink.net>
"First the boarding craft must survive the trip to the target vessel,
which unless disabled is gonna be dodging and/or firing..."
Mr. Akins,
HG2, the only Traveller product that provides details on boarding
actions (the only one so far to be more accurate), requires a few
prerequisites for an yboarding to be attempted.
On page 43; "First, the ship to be boarded must be disabled; it must be
incapable of manuevering, all of its offensive weapons must be disabled, and
it must not have a working black globe generator."
So, our target vessel must be "dead in space" (unable to changes it's
vector, not stopped) and have no way of shooting at the small craft carrying
the boarding forces.
Additionally on page 43; "Second, it must be seperated from protecting
friendly ships, this is assumed to occur if, at any time after the ship is
disabled, the owning player has the initiative and changes the range from
short to long (retreating, in effect)."
No, there are admittedly several loopholes and other peculiarities in
this requirement. Most are due to HG2's very stylized tactical manuevering.
The requirement does imply that the vessel to be boarded has beee left
behind or abandoned by its own forces. It also means that no "protecting
ships" are nearby to shoot at the boarder's small craft.
So, at the current time, boarding actions in Traveller seem to be
limited to those vessels that are crippled and have been left behind the
"flow" of battle. Any scenarios in which cutters zip through the space
between opposing battle lines and deliver boarding parties to operating
combatants seems to be a "no-no".
Hope this helps.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:43:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: How a Densitometer Works
Steve (Bloo) Daniels writes:
> How does a densitometer works.
Magic. Related to the traveller Meson. Presumably it sends a short pulse,
of which part of the energy penetrates, and part reflects, based on the
thickness of material being penetrated. You then measure the intensity of
reflected energy with time to determine the internal shape of the the object.
Should have resolution which is inversely proportional to penetration, and
thus wouldn't be effective at detecting small deeply buried objects.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:44 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
In-Reply-To: <KLEBLHAGDGKFLJPFEDFMGEBOCCAA.peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>-
Greetings dear hearts.
>What happens in canon to a ship that is already in jumpspace if ...
>1.) ... external stores (i.e.. items attached to hull) are jettisoned?
The stores would be irretrievably lost and impact thereof with the jump
bubble are liable to 'pop' or distort it. A misjump if you are lucky :-)
>2.) ... the jump drive is turned off?
The actual DRIVES are off already, but I would not recommend turning off
the jumpgrid. Drops below, oh, say 90% efficiency and you have problems
>3.) ... the flow of power (or fuel) to the jump engines is reduced?
See 2, if talking about the jumpgrid rather than the drive itself.
>4.) ... the jump volume of the ship is increased by inflating a
> balloon inside a cargo mesh?
Misjump very likely!
>5.) ... an attached ship with its own jump drive tries to use it?
Eeeek! Don't go there...
Now Peter keeps saying "However if you are volunteering to test it, give
me a call :-)."
Hmm. My main TRAVELLER character, an engineer (speciality being jump) by
the name of Sandor McGann, would probably start getting interested if he
heard that. He's mad. Went EVA in jump once, just because he thought there
was a small degradation in jump grid performance and he insisted on
checking there and then!
Gilly, for Dom who knows who I'm talking about, is almost as bad :-)
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:44 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Legalized Piracy! (was Trade Wars)
In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.20010213132702.007b4100@buffnet.net>
Greetings dear hearts.
In one game I played in, we found ourselves in the middle of a small
(sub-sector size) war. I think the DM was looking for us to take a merc
contract on one side or the other. We didn't.
Found an unihabited planet somewhere fairly median between the 2
combatants and set up a massive R&R centre. Anyone could come, get
plastered, laid, whatever - the one thing they could not do was continue
the war in any form. We made an absolute packet :-)
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal - aka Skeether, a Vargr with a large bank balance :-)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:50 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: boarding actions
In-Reply-To: <008f01c095f7$be1398f0$e40810ac@ANDY>
Greetings dear hearts.
Please do not even THINK about boarding ships by cutting your way into the
engine room.
I habitually play engineer characters and don't want to be bothered by
visitors when I'm busy, thanks!
Even worse in live roleplay games. Sitting there in a derelict ship trying
to figure out why the jump drive controller is doing such peculiar things,
it is most distracting when security robots or blokes with guns or
whatever come in and pester you....
Hugs and kisses,
TechSgt Mexal, Colonial Marine Corps.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 12:55:29 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches
>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Apocalypse Marches (was: re: Islands - Bad example?)
...
>> > >Incompetence in the Imperium's higher levels isn't anything new. Can you
>> > >say Sector Admiral Frederick Santanocheev?
>> >
>> > Revisionist! The man was a hero, betrayed by back-stabbing
>> >opportunists who wanted his job!
>> >
>> > ("his followers ... worship him like a god")
...
>See the "Son of Santanocheev" thread from December 1999, some of which I
>reposted in December 2000....
Plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery, although I understand that
wads of small denomination, untraceable currency units are preferred :>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:02:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Forboldn (was re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR)
>From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
>Grants Pass, OR---Where the men are men and the sheep are really women
who
Open mike night at the Dead Spacer:
Great, I thinks, we're off to Forboldn, where the men are men and the
groats are nervous. Hey, did you hear about the new safe sex program on
Forboldn? They're branding all the groats that kick.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:03:36 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
Hello Everyone:
Once had a very interesting conversation with a engineer who worked in a high
(1000psi) pressure power plant aboard a navy vessel. He stated that every now
and then they would have a leak in the high pressure line. They would
immediately grab a broom (mop, whatever) and wave the handle in front of them to
discover where the leak was. When the handle got cut apart they figured out
where the leak was. Then they could fix it.
I imagine there are selective break points in th system if you want to remove
(replace) or otherwise change things. So when that boarding party gets into
engineering you just create a few leaks at desired places. When they loose an
arm or a hand that will thell them where the leak is located.
Of course you could always rewire the engine to go critical as a last ditch
effort to take as many with you as possiblke (if you were going to loose)
John W. Fox
>
> In-Reply-To: <008f01c095f7$be1398f0$e40810ac@ANDY>
> Greetings dear hearts.
>
> Please do not even THINK about boarding ships by cutting your way into the
> engine room.
>
> I habitually play engineer characters and don't want to be bothered by
> visitors when I'm busy, thanks!
>
> Even worse in live roleplay games. Sitting there in a derelict ship trying
> to figure out why the jump drive controller is doing such peculiar things,
> it is most distracting when security robots or blokes with guns or
> whatever come in and pester you....
>
> Hugs and kisses,
>
> TechSgt Mexal, Colonial Marine Corps.
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:14:56 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
>Subject: Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
...
> (BTW, could two attached jump ships synchronize their drives and
> jump as one?)
Yes (TCS, p.35, "Jump Failure").
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 17:41:06 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Landmine clearing...
Regards mine clearing I seem to remember a rocket based system which created
a ground hugging vapor cloud/air fuel mixture which was then detonated. The
intent was to create an instantaous pressure wave over a large area and pop
the mines by over pressure. Does anyone recall the system, think it was
called/abrivated "SLUFAY" or something close. It was supposed to be good
against bunkers as well.
Dan
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:34:04 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: boarding actions
>Once had a very interesting conversation with a engineer who worked in a
high
>(1000psi) pressure power plant aboard a navy vessel. He stated that every
now
>and then they would have a leak in the high pressure line. They would
>immediately grab a broom (mop, whatever) and wave the handle in front of
them to
>discover where the leak was. When the handle got cut apart they figured
out
>where the leak was. Then they could fix it.
This is extremly true. I was an engineer on the USS Missouri And we had a
600 psi Steam system. the steam was generated in 2 (per boiler room)
Babcocks and Wilcox boilers. it would pass through the fisrt stage of
heating and then go through the superheater which would Super heat the steam
to 600 psi. i cant remember the tempeture it would reach (to long ago.)
If a Pin sized Hole hole where to open up on one of the steam lines you
could lose limbs, heads or even be cut in half. and yes we would use a broom
or mob and wave it in front of us up and down searching for the leak.
On a couple of side notes.
The steam was run to the High Pressure turbin and from there to the Low
pressure turbin. these would Turn the Main reduction gears which would
inturn turn the screw. if some how a drop of water where to make it into the
those turbines it would cause the turbine to explode. Turbine blades
everywhere. now I cant remember the scientific way to explain it but the
superheating of the steam removed any actual water vapor from the steam so
this was not a problem.
second side note. the lines the moor the ship to the dock if to much tension
is applied to them and they snap they also could cut a man in half and it is
not unheard of. we were told to listen for a "tick tick tick" type sound if
we heard it to get away from the lines asap.
third side note. the SSTG's (ships service turbo generators) which produce
the power for the ship where basically miniture versions of the main ships
engines. used the same steam just pressure had been stepped down.
Now this is all based on Steam technology. I have no idea how that could
relate to Starship engines or powersystems. but you never know.
OBTrav: The ships internal powersytems have been destroyed. but the engineer
realizes that the Power generation system of the ship is just a miniture
version or the Jump drive that powers the Lanthium grid. Working quickly he
ties the power from the still working jump drive to the ships internal
system after running it through a series of power reduction circuts in order
to provide a ships power for life support and computer controlled boarding
counter messures with out blowing every protective circut on board. He
hopes....
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:42:47 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Megacorp info
On 13 Feb 2001, at 12:21, Michael Daumen wrote:
> GT: Far Trader refers to a Shadowrun product called "Corporate Shadowfiles"
> as a reference to how the big boys operate (it's listed as "Corporate
> Shadowars" but corrected in SJG's errata page). It contains a lot of
> general info about big corps and how they operate that is readliy applicable
> to Traveller. Much of it would be found in a typical finance textbook. It
> also includes some useful rules for monitoring the relative strengths of
> rival firms that can be adopted with some minor changes (and if you're
> willing to keep track of the stats, but hey, we're talking Traveller aren't
> we?). If you've integrated hacking/cyberpunk themes into your campaign,
> they will be even more apropos.
Thanks Michael.
Now I'm pondering the balance of power between megacorps and the
nobility. Sure the emperor and the nobility are [alway/often] on
the BoD for megacorps (a la Dune/CHOAM), and thus profit from and
have an interest in the survival of the megacorps. And the nobility
is still around, but the megacorps would have to be HUGE with a lot
of political weight. Where does the balance of power lie IYTU?
Are the nobility strong and the megacorps their puppets?
Are the megacorps the ones with the power and using nobility for
figureheads? Public perception vs. real power?
What issues would there be in a universe with this power topology?
(In case there's more canon that answers this better, a swift kick
in the pants is acceptable [along with reference to said canon].
Maybe just focus on the "IYTU" part of it. :)
Rob D.
- --
Rob
My mailer limits my .sig to 4 lines, but I ingeniously bypassed this by
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:42:42 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
>From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
"Hello Everyone:
Once had a very interesting conversation with a engineer who worked in
a high (1000psi) pressure power plant aboard a navy vessel. He stated that
every now and then they would have a leak in the high pressure line. They
would immediately grab a broom (mop, whatever) and wave the handle in front
of them to discover where the leak was. When the handle got cut apart they
figured out where the leak was."
This is very much true. I was trained by a retired boiler tech at the
Great Lakes NTC too many years ago to count. The gentleman's right hand
consisted of a thumb, a forefinger, and part of his palm. It was as if you
had simply drawn a line from a point between his fore and middle fingers
straight to the outside of his wrist.
The trainers told us that 1000+ PSI superheated steam had enough
benefits (immediately cauterizes blood vessels, destroys nerves, etc.) that
hospitals would use it for amputations if it weren't so expensive to produce
compared to the small amount of amputations they perform. This could have
been a sea story they were feeding we trainees, though.
On a more "Traveller" note; how many high pressure, high temperature
fluids and gasses would there be in a starship engineroom? Would a ship use
steam for anything? Compressed air? Hydraulics?
IMHO, the engine room would create and distribute electricity to remote
compressors in order to operate landing gear, cargo hatches, etc. rather
than create and transmit the needed pneumatic or hydraulic pressure.
IMHO, opinion electrical generation is handled by MHDs rather than
rotating turbine generators. A MHD would only need the fusion plants
ionized plasma passing through stators to create our current and it could be
an intregal part of the fusion tokamak. A turbine would need heat
exchangers, pumps, condensers, etc. I hate to burst anyone's bubble hear
but a nuc propulsion or generation plant just isn't much too different than
one a fossil boiler powers.
This might be completely wrong and might have already been discuused
and dismissed here at the TML, but it was what my fellow Travellers and I
came up with while we were in the Navy.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:46:44 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Population stuff
>
>So they can repair the cruise liners that visit.
A class III can do that easily enough. Class IV's *make* intersystem ships.
>
>No. It makes ones using the photosynthetic reaction we know of
>impossible. That doesn't mean that there isn't one that'll work.
I've asked around about alternative methods of chemistry that achieves the
same goal of photosynthesis, and the answer I got was that there weren't
any...
>Also, for many type M stars, due to things like flares, the wavelengths
>available *shift* a lot. Which means there might be plants that use the
>much higher energy radiation when it's available and go mostly dormant
>in between.
Long enough to sustain life?
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:52:11 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Peter Scarrott wrote:
>
> Thanks for the reply, you have hit the crux of my problem ;-). I have all
> the info on fuel etc and ways to do it, (internal bladders demountable tanks
> etc) but what I really, really need is any ideas on how the actual jump to
> deep space works rules wise.
>
> To clarify some questions :
> 1. Does there need to be a large mass there already? If so how large is
> large enough?
>
> 2. If no to 1, is this jump riskier (i.e. more chance of misjump) than a
> normal system to system jump?
>
> 3. Does the jump calculation take longer than normal? Is it more difficult
> than normal?
1. It depends.
2. It depends.
3. It depends.
Seriously, this situation is, AFAIK, strictly an issue of "IMTU." I
know of no canonical references to technical problems inherent in
deep-space jumps. Having said that, IMTU:
1. You do not need to jump to a massive object.
2. There is no increase in risk of misjump for deep-space jumps due to
the absence of a massive body (but see below).
3. Jumps into deep space are calculated normally. Jumps out of deep
space are trickier, unless there is a calibrated nav beacon at the
deep-space jump site. Relying on stellar fixes to plot a jump out of
deep space, in the absence of such beacons, takes 2D*10% longer to plot,
with a penalty of 1 on the misjump roll. (Here's where I put the
hazard! <wicked grin>)
<<snip>>
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3659
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3660
Date: | 2/13/01 3:25:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 13 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3660
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
[none]
Re: boarding actions
Re: Looking For...
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Keyboard Kill damn you :-)
RE: Land Grab ideas- Fractal Terrain generators
High Pressure Steam as a weapon
Hull jump grids
Re: boarding actions
RE: Deep Space Jumps
Re: High Pressure Steam as a weapon
Re: How a Densitometer Works
Re: Milestone Achieved
A Secret History of Jump Drive [long]
Short note on IISS Administration
Re: Land Grab ideas- Fractal Terrain generators
Re: boarding actions
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:52:42 -0500 (EST)
From: rgd@ohio.voyager.net
Subject: [none]
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:56:21 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
On 13 Feb 2001, at 14:01, Andy Akins wrote:
> Who knows how often this insane activity is performed - in the heat of
> battle I must guess not very often, too big of a chance of a major CF.
> However, I could see a HRT unit performing such actions on hijacked liners,
> or space stations. Pirates (if you use them) would use them to steal ships,
> etc...
I don't know if or how this affects things (in OTU or YTU),
but wouldn't cutting into a ships hull sever the jump grid?
Useful if you don't want a[n immediately] jump capable ship.
Are there points on the ship not covered by the grid that could
be used (and the crew could possibly tell that the boarders wanted
her with the jump grid intact by where they boarded).
Rob D.
- --
Rob
'The whole principle is wrong; it's like demanding that grown men live
on skim milk because the baby can't eat steak.'
- - author Robert A. Heinlein on censorship.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:01:43 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Looking For...
Gordon Hundley wrote:
>
> on 13/2/01 12:11 am, Dominic Mooney at dom@cybergoths.u-net.com wrote:
>
> > The excellent SJ Games Beowulf Deckplans have CT HG2 stats:
> >
> > A-2211111-01000-10001-0 MCr 59.56 (!) 200 tons
> > Crew=4, TL=9, Book 2 design.
> >
> > I think that the cost may be a result of HG2 - original Book 2 was MCr 37.08
>
> Yow! Those are mighty expensive weapons they've added. Is this an AuricTech
> design? :)
Of course not! Had it been an AuricTech design, the computer code (at
TTL-9) would be "C", indicating a Model 3 computer with fiber-optic
backup (the most powerful computer available at TTL-9). Milspec
computers are just too useful not to use. Milspec computers help a ship
survive combat. Milspec computers are our friends. Milspec computers
cost _much_ more than civilian-grade machines!
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:02:28 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Hello Folks,
If anyone is looking for "canon" with respect towards Deep Space stations
- - look to POCKET EMPIRES, put out by Marc Miller himself <grin>.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:03:03 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
"Peter Scarrott wrote:
To clarify some questions :
1. Does there need to be a large mass there already? If so how large
is large enough?
2. If no to 1, is this jump riskier (i.e. more chance of misjump) than
a normal system to system jump?
3. Does the jump calculation take longer than normal? Is it more
difficult?"
Mr Scarrott,
Mr. Groth's answers to your questions are essentially the same as my
own. The idea that some sort of mass is required to facilitate a ship's
entry or exit from jump space seems to have crept into YTU from C.J.
Cherryh's excellent seeries of "Merchanter" novels. In OTU, all mass does
(or more accurately the gravitional fieldaround it) is prevent the formation
of the jump field.
My recent purchase of GT:Far Trader introduced to me to new (to me
anyways) idea of a "jump shadow". I don't remember seeing this concept in
any other Traveller publications. However, I am frequently wrong.
I have been carrying around for years the notion that if you plot your
jump exit point for a position within a body's 10 diameter limit, your ship
would be violently perturbed out of jump space at that limit and most likely
destroyed. Once again, I am frequently wrong.
Hopefully, some kind soul here at the TML will repsond to us both.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:05:58 +0000
From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Keyboard Kill damn you :-)
Peter Scarrott wrote:
> Damn my first ever time suffering this, anyone have any idea how to get
> yoghurt out of my keyboard and printer.
> - - - - - - quote - - - - --
> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 22:16:58 +0000
> From: Simon Brodie <mr_fingle@gravity-sucks.demon.co.uk>
> Subject: Penis size
>
> > This displacement of liquid Hydrogen volume measuring system....
> anyone know how to attach a frozen penis back on?
Sod the damn keyboard kill (chalk it up please mr umpire).....
It's starting to thaw out and the dogs are eyeing it hungrily (albeit with some
disappointment)
Si
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:07:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Bernie McGeehan <einreb62@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Land Grab ideas- Fractal Terrain generators
I like this almost as much as I like Napster!!!
- --- Glenn Myers <glenn.myers@ansys.com> wrote:
> Something that I have been playing with a lot
> lately...
>
> http://www.lysator.liu.se/~johol/fwmg/fwmg.html
>
> It is a fractal worldmap generator cgi available for
> FREE over the net. It
> seems to do most of the stuff that FT does and I
> don't have to get a wintel
> box to run it.
>
> Glenn
>
>
______________________________________________________
>
> Glenn E. Myers
> ANSYS Inc. Email:
> glenn.myers@ansys.com
> 275 Technology Drive Phone: (724) 514-2913
> Canonsburg, PA 15317 Fax: (724) 514-3118
>
______________________________________________________
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: hal@buffnet.net [mailto:hal@buffnet.net]
> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2001 3:48 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Land Grab ideas
>
>
> Hello Folks,
> If anyone is interested...
>
> Profantasy created a program titled CAMPAIGN
> CARTOGRAPHER that permits
> people to create their own maps. What people may
> not be aware of, is that
> Profantasy also created a program titled FRACTAL
> TERRAIN. It will generate
> a world randomly based on criteria entered by the
> user. Once the world is
> generated, it will also export the data to the
> Campaign Cartographer in map
> format usable by any Game Master. As a final bonus?
> If you have access to
> any program that permits you to make animations, the
> FRACTAL TERRAIN
> program will export any number of Bitmap pictures or
> Gif Pictures for use
> in animation. In short? Anyone can create a map of
> a world in seconds, an
> animation sequence in less than 10 minutes, and have
> it all be true to the
> parameters generated in TRAVELLER based on
> percentage of landmass,
> percentage of water cover, elevations both below and
> above sea level and so
> forth. Truely a good pair of programs to own!
>
> Hal
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:07:09 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: High Pressure Steam as a weapon
> >Once had a very interesting conversation with a engineer who worked in a
>high
> >(1000psi) pressure power plant aboard a navy vessel. He stated that every
>now
> >and then they would have a leak in the high pressure line. They would
> >immediately grab a broom (mop, whatever) and wave the handle in front of
>them to
> >discover where the leak was. When the handle got cut apart they figured
>out
> >where the leak was. Then they could fix it.
>This is extremly true. I was an engineer on the USS Missouri And we had a
>600 psi Steam system. the steam was generated in 2 (per boiler room)
>Babcocks and Wilcox boilers. it would pass through the fisrt stage of
>heating and then go through the superheater which would Super heat the steam
>to 600 psi. i cant remember the tempeture it would reach (to long ago.)
>If a Pin sized Hole hole where to open up on one of the steam lines you
>could lose limbs, heads or even be cut in half. and yes we would use a broom
>or mob and wave it in front of us up and down searching for the leak.
The broom handle trick is SOP in just about any power generation
plant/station. They all use high pressure steam regardless of what they
use to heat it with.
Electric planet switching stations are also very, very dangerous places.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ - Opinions should be yours too!
Monday special, two valiums with a coffee chaser.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:11:21 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Hull jump grids
Gentlemen,
What is the TML concensus on MT's hull jump grid? Is it a best avoided
gaffe like the jump fuel ruling, or is it pretty much accepted?
Can't wait to here everyone's thoughts!
Thanks in advance.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:16:19 -0600
From: "Andy Akins" <andyakins@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
> HG2, the only Traveller product that provides details on boarding
> actions (the only one so far to be more accurate), requires a few
> prerequisites for an yboarding to be attempted.
Very true. In Classic Traveller.
In GURPS Traveller, things are a bit more fluid. Since the boarding clamps
are designed as robot arms (per GURPS vehicles), a vehicle/ship mounting
clamps can basically perform a "grapple" type attack against another
vehicle/ship/structure. So basically, if a ship can survive the approach,
and can match speeds, it is conceivable in GT that a ship could board
another while armed and under power.
In reality, it should probibly be a very difficult thing to do, since
canonically it is not done often (if at all). Baring specific rules (maybe
some should be written for GT:Corsairs, eh?) I would say that targeting a
boarding ship with weaponry should be cake - I mean, the approaching vessel
is trying to line up and match courses and speeds! What could be easier?
So an assaulting ship would need to either:
1) disable some/all of the weaponry of the target ship, at least at the
angle of approach, or
2) be heavily armored, or
3) be extremely stealthy/ECM
2 and 3 seem problematic - in ordered to be armored enough to handle any
incoming shots, could the craft be fast and maneuverable enough to match
speeds and courses. And I don't believe that a ship could be stealthed
enough to approach all the way to another hull without being detected.
Andy Akins
co-author GURPS Traveller:Modular Cutter
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:12:34 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
> Mr. Groth's answers to your questions are essentially the same as my
>own. The idea that some sort of mass is required to facilitate a ship's
>entry or exit from jump space seems to have crept into YTU from C.J.
>Cherryh's excellent seeries of "Merchanter" novels. In OTU, all mass does
>(or more accurately the gravitional fieldaround it) is prevent the
formation
>of the jump field.
I read CJ Cherryh's Chanur Novels (which is one of my all time favorites) I
am just glad that Jumps where not like they described in there. 1 week of
Sitting at the helm in a dream like state un able to do anything till you
exited jump.
hasta
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:24:20 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: High Pressure Steam as a weapon
Mark Urbin wrote:
> Electric planet switching stations are also very, very dangerous
> places.
I can imagine so! Bad enough to have a whole planet seething in
electrical energy, but to be in the switching station where a whole
bunch of them are being moved around would indeed be incredibly
dangerous. It must be incredibly difficult to keep the positive
electric planets from the negative electric planets, and you'd get a
really vicious arc if they got too close.
(Hmm... does Io count as an "electric planet"?)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:28:52 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: How a Densitometer Works
"Steve (Bloo) Daniels" wrote:
>
> How does a densitometer works.
>
> It's sending out a signal that penetrates stuff, but rebounds to a
> signal
> reader, right? That means, when it reaches material with density X,
> it can't penetrate it and the signal rebounds. If it doesn't reach
> density
> X, how does the signal get back?
My take would be that the signal (whatever it is) is sent at varying
levels of power (possibly on different frequencies, to allow multiple
signal strengths to be sent simultaneously). Thus, the lowest-power
waves will echo back even against low-density objects, while
increasingly powerful waves penetrate further to provide internal
detail.
Of course, Anthony Jackson's response is at least as valid.... ;-)
<<snip>>
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:53:17 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: Milestone Achieved
On Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:41:58 -0500 (EST), hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>Hello Folks,
> Nothing like a simple program execution to make one's day all bright and
>sunshiny...
>Last night, bleary eyed and tired, I finished working on code I hoped would
>get my phase I of the distance finder program working. This afternoon, I
>tested it, and it worked!
I'd say that there are going to be a lot of programmer types - me not least
of them - that would be interested in seeing the code for this routine.
Would you be willing to share?
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:52:32 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: A Secret History of Jump Drive [long]
Or, how one item of technology shaped 10,000 years of human history...
This is my attempt to pull together various ideas on jump drive I've
had (or that I've shamelessly stolen from other posters) into one
semi-coherent whole. It explains attitudes to deep space refuelling,
near-c rocks, the shape of the Ziru Sirka, whether the Terrans copied
jump drive from the Vilani, why the Long Night happened, and many
other mysteries. It's all IMTU, of course, but I don't think it
actually conflicts with canon at all, and I hope it may inspire ideas
in others...
It is written from the point of view of an Imperial historian working
in 1120...
____________________________________________________________
The Secret History of the Jump Drive.
Humans on Vland invented jump drive in the year -9235. By that date,
the Vilani had already established colonies using STL ships, but the
new drive enabled them to establish a true interstellar empire - the
first since the downfall of the Ancients.
However, Vilani theories of jumpspace were flawed, and the drives they
produced operated on a different principle to those in common use
today. The main differences can be summarised as follows:
1) The Vilani jump drive (abbreviated as vJ-drive henceforth, as
opposed to conventional J-drive) had no built-in method of
precipitating a ship out of jumpspace at the end of its voyage.
Instead, this was achieved by "running the ship up against a gravity
well": (there is a more technical explanation, but it would be
incomprehensible to a non-specialist). If done successfully, the ship
would reemerge into normal space right on the 100-diameter limit. If
the ship's vector failed to intersect a large enough gravity well, the
ship would remain in jumpspace until its jumpfield collapsed and the
ship was destroyed.
2) The operating principles of the vJ-drive meant that a maximum jump
distance of two parsecs was all that could be achieved.
3) The vJ-drive had an extremely high power requirement at the moment
of entering jump-space, and was also very vulnerable to power surges
or fluctuations at this time. To avoid any such risk, it was common
practice to shut down all non-essential electrical systems on a
starship making a jump - the origin of "jump dimming".
For over 3,800 years, the Vilani used the vJ-1 drive to expand.
However, its inability to make deep-space jumps meant that
astrography, and the existence of mains and clusters, had an
overwhelming influence on the nature of their expansion. The only way
to jump from one main to another was if a suitably large asteroid,
comet or similar object could be located within the rift - and
spotting a small, non-radiating object from a one parsec distance was
almost a matter of chance. Whenever one of these "bridges" across a
rift was located, it would quickly become a major focus of exploration
and colonisation missions. On some rare occasions, the Vilani
government bureaux would create an artificial bridge, by attaching
thrusters to a suitably large asteroid and moving it through realspace
into the rift. However, such endeavours had a huge cost, took many
years to complete, and had an uncertain payback, so they were very
rare.
In the year -5430, Vilani scientists finally achieved what their
theories had long said was possible: a two-parsec jump drive. This
revolutionised space travel. The strategic implications of the vJ-2
drive were quickly realised, and it was made an official, Government
monopoly. vJ-1 drives had been freely sold to minor races and client
states, but the vJ-2 drive was used to outfit fleets of warships that
went out to conquer those non-Vilani states.
Under the Ziru Sirka, the vJ-2 drive remained a state secret. While
virtually every high-population planet was able to make vJ-1 drives,
only certain selected strategic centres were permitted to make the
more powerful system, and their output was mostly reserved for
military and government use. The bureaux did maintain fleets of
jump-two capable merchant ships, but these were almost always used to
cross rifts and connect clusters, rather than in general trade. These
state-owned bulk freighters and jump tenders would carry cargoes and
privately-owned starships from one main to another, creating a "ferry"
to back up the naturally-occuring "bridges". This was very
profitable, but it was also a major tool of social control. The
threat of removing a ferry, or the promise of setting up a new one,
could often bring a troublesome planet back into line; and in the case
of major unrest, a cluster could be completely isolated from the rest
of the sector. Of course, the fact that all trade, passenger travel
and information flow between clusters also passed through the bureaux'
hands was highly significant. In consequence, over the years the
government came to discourage the use of natural bridges, or even
suppress knowledge of them; and it completely ceased creating
artificial ones. In fact, there is some evidence of a deliberate
psychohistorical project to make the idea of fastening engines to
large rocks and firing them off into space seem ludicrous, primitive
and dangerous to the average Imperial citizen.
Meanwhile, on another world far from Vland, other scientists were
working independently on the concept of jumpspace. The theory that
the Terrans developed in -2434 was very different to that used by the
Vilani, and is accepted today as being correct. The first Terran J-1
starships were therefore capable of jumping to deep space, rather than
only to a gravity well - which is fortunate, since Terra's nearest
neighbours are two parsecs away. However, the ships were also
unreliable and very fuel-intensive, and were unable to carry
sufficient fuel to make several jumps in succession - meaning that the
Americans had to set up a refuelling base in deep space as a staging
post for their first expedition to Barnard's Star in -2424.
The resulting contact with the Vilani led, after just 16 years, to
war. However, by the time the war broke out the Terrans not only had
starships, but _jump-two_ capable starships.
Vilani jump drive had been an eagerly sought-after item of technology,
and the Vilani traders saw no harm in selling vJ-1 drives to the
ignorant Terran barbarians. Using these imported drives, the European
colony on Prometheus immediately began exploring and colonising the
"Outback" cluster of stars. Meanwhile, engineers on Earth quickly set
about reverse-engineering the Vilani jump drive. While the
native-built J-drive might offer theoretical advantages, the vJ-drive
had 6,800 years of technological development behind it - it was
incredibly reliable, efficient, easy to maintain, and cheap. Pure
scientific research into jumpspace theory was largely abandoned in the
rush to assimilate, catch up with and improve on the vast body of data
acquired from the Vilani.
However, the vJ-1 drive was unable to cope with the 2-parsec gap
between Terra and her colonies. The Vilani governor's office made an
offer to set up a ferry system for the Terrans, but they - recognising
the trap - politely declined. Soon after, the first Terran vJ-2 ships
appeared. It is unknown how the technology was acquired: by bribery
and corruption of lax Vilani officials, by straightforward scientific
extrapolation from existing data, or by covert action [ie "a small
group of skilled but disreputable adventurers seizing a Vilani vJ-2
starship and piloting it home to Earth"]. Regardless of the source,
this development was a huge breach of both Imperial law and immemorial
custom, and was a primary cause in the breakdown of relations that
lead to war.
For the next two centuries, both Terrans and Vilani waged war with
ships that used the vJ-2 drive. However, the period of peace and
prosperity enjoyed by the Terran Confederation after the Seventh
Interstellar War allowed it to re-devote resources into pure science
again, instead of always playing "catch-up". The old jump-space
theories had been largely ignored for 200 years, on the basis that
since the Vilani were so successful, their interpretation of the facts
must be the correct one. A new generation of scientists, less
overawed by the influence of the Ziru Sirka, looked again at the old
theories and proved their validity. The result was the Terran
invention of the J-3 drive, and the final defeat of the Vilani fleets.
Under the Rule of Man, the Terrans built many new factories to
construct J-3 drives: and the same plants were also able to make J-2
and J-1 drives economically. However, the vJ-1 and vJ-2 drives did
not fall out of use immediately. Partly, this was a question of scale
and inertia: there were thousands of planets producing vJ-1 drives,
and hundreds of thousands of starships using them. However, strategic
factors also played a role. Officially, the Terrans rejected the old
Vilani controls on technology, and called for free trade; in practice
the Navy - which meant the government - recognised the military
importance of J-3 drive, and tried to restrict its availability.
Shipyards capable of making the new drives were restricted to a
handful of "easy-to-protect" planets - usually the same ones that had
been authorised to build vJ-2 drives under the Ziru Sirka. Most such
drives were purchased by the military, or by the aggressive Terran
trade corporations. The old Vilani system of "ferries" was allowed to
fall into disuse, as it smacked too much of state regulation and
bureaucratic control. Instead, Terran-owned cargo lines set up trade
routes directly between profitable centres of commerce - bypassing
many worlds that had previously played a key role in the local
cluster's economy, and sending them into a spiral of economic decline.
By the end of the Second Imperium, probably 40% of its starships (by
number of hulls) used the new drives, and 60% still relied on the old
vJ-1 drive - although by tonnage, the new drives were far more
important. Ironically, as the Long Night deepened it was the vJ-drive
that would remain in service longer. The J-drive was manufactured on
a handful of worlds, and its main purchaser was the goverment - so
when long-distance trade collapsed and the government ran out of
money, it was these companies that went out of business first.
Individual planets could still make vJ-1 drives with their own
resources, and maintain links with their neighbours. However, the
decay of the ferry system meant that each cluster was now isolated
from its neighbours, with no way to cross the rifts between them; and
so the Rule of Man gradually fragmented into hundreds of minor states,
each separated from the rest by the facts of astrography. As trade
declined further, many worlds turned to their own resources and
abandoned star travel entirely.
It was this decay of technology that made the final triumph of the
J-drive over the vJ-drive possible. Economies of scale and production
expertise had kept the less effective vJ-drive in use despite a better
alternative being available. However, the Long Night created a clean
slate. A world such as Sylea that was rebuilding an interstellar
society from scratch could learn from the mistakes of the past and
produce the superior J-drive instead of the faulty vJ-drive. By the
time of the founding of the Third Imperium, Sylea was again
constructing starships with J-3 capabilities.
By approximately 200, the vJ-drive was no longer in use anywhere
within Imperial borders. Most of the starships that had been equipped
with these engines had been relics of the Long Night - some of them
centuries old - and by 200 they had all been replaced by shiny new
J-drive ships sold by the Imperial megacorporations. Similarly, the
few planets that had maintained some shipbuilding capability through
the Long Night - usually an old Vilani vJ-1 installation - had by then
been economically integrated into Imperial society. Their shipyards
were either modernised by megacorporate investment, or driven out of
business by competition from their more up-to-date rivals.
This new technology meant that in theory, the Third Imperium's trade
and colonisation efforts were no longer dependent on mains, clusters
and rifts. However, events such as the discovery of the Spinward Main
were still cause for excitement. Partly this was due to tradition,
and the fact that popular thought had not caught up with the
possibilities that technology now brought. In addition, the fact that
the Long Night had made clusters and mains into isolated entities gave
them a political importance entirely separate to their economic role.
The Imperial system of rigid, rectangular subsector borders was a
deliberate attempt to undermine the independence of such "organic"
political units, but one with dubious success.
During the following millennium the Imperium developed, in succession,
the J-4, J-5 and J-6 drives. Current theory states that J-6 is the
maximum attainable. Certainly no known society that has attained
greater than TL F (such as the Darrians) has been able to sustain a
jump for further than six parsecs. However, it is known that in rare
instances, misjumping ships can travel as far as 36 parsecs - leading
some researchers to speculate that a J-36 drive may one day be
possible. This theory states that jumpspace comprises several layers,
and the ß-layer stands in the same relation to the a-layer as that
layer does to realspace. A misjump is caused by the ship entering the
ß-layer (or even higher layers, such as y-, d-, or e-) instead of the
a-layer. In most cases the ship is destroyed; but if a means is ever
found to use the phenomenon of the "misjump" in a controlled and safe
manner, the effect on human society will be as revolutionary as those
first experiments on Vland 10,000 years ago.
______________________________________________________________
Stephen
(I was never given a newbie essay assignment, so consider that my
entry...)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:50:29 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Short note on IISS Administration
The IISS is a mess, as far as administration goes. I'd go through the Org Chart in Book 7, but it makes
my brain hurt. The only thing I can point to that it resembles is the German military-industrial complex in
WW2 ... and we all saw how well that worked.
Basically, IMO the IISS' UWP system is screwy. Privately, IMTU, they admit this. All ex-scouts should
know that ...
1) sometimes the person writing the report includes transients in the report, and sometimes they dont
2) just because it's a class A starport doesnt mean it's very big
3) corruption has been known to occour, as worlds get their ratings pushed up (to encourage trade) or
down (to reduce Imperial taxation)
4) there is a healthy aftermarket in 'real' information.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:09:51 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Land Grab ideas- Fractal Terrain generators
Bernie McGeehan wrote:
> I like this almost as much as I like Napster!!!
At least you can still access the fractal map generator,
Napster having been enjoined by a federal circuit.
:-P
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:09:00 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
From: "Andy Akins" <andyakins@earthlink.net>
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:"
"HG2, the only Traveller product that provides details on boarding
actions (the only one so far to be more accurate), requires a few
prerequisites for an yboarding to be attempted."
"Very true. In Classic Traveller."
Yup, like I said, the only one, so far. Things will change. :)
"So an assaulting ship would need to either:
1) disable some/all of the weaponry of the target ship, at least at the
angle of approach, or
2) be heavily armored, or
3) be extremely stealthy/ECM
2 and 3 seem problematic - in ordered to be armored enough to handle any
incoming shots, could the craft be fast and maneuverable enough to match
speeds and courses. And I don't believe that a ship could be stealthed
enough to approach all the way to another hull without being detected.
Andy Akins
co-author GURPS Traveller:Modular Cutter"
The Modular Cutter book, sir, is one I cannot wait to see! I've always
had a soft spot in my heart for those multi-purpose, 50dTon, little rascals.
Could you let us know when it's due out? Please?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3660
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From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)
To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3660
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3661
Date: | 2/13/01 4:34:35 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 13 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3661
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: boarding actions
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: How a Densitometer Works
Re: Population stuff
Re: How a Densitometer Works
Re: boarding actions
Re: boarding actions
Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
Re: Boarding Actions
High Guard and High Guard 2
Re: High Pressure Steam as a weapon
Re: boarding actions
Re: How a Densitometer Works
Re: Forboldn (was re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR)
Re: High Guard and High Guard 2
Re: Landmine clearing...
Re: boarding actions
Re: boarding actions
Re: Boarding Actions
RE: High Guard and High Guard 2
Re: RW Virus Warning
Re: boarding actions
Question from merchant prince.
Re: Forboldn (was re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR)
Jump Grid (was boarding actions)
Re: boarding actions
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:14:25 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
At 2:20 PM +0000 2/13/01, Peter Scarrott wrote:
>Thanks for the reply, you have hit the crux of my problem ;-). I have all
>the info on fuel etc and ways to do it, (internal bladders demountable tanks
>etc) but what I really, really need is any ideas on how the actual jump to
>deep space works rules wise.
>
>To clarify some questions :
>1. Does there need to be a large mass there already? If so how large is
>large enough?
>
>2. If no to 1, is this jump riskier (i.e. more chance of misjump) than a
>normal system to system jump?
>
>3. Does the jump calculation take longer than normal? Is it more difficult
>than normal?
The answer to all three is "no".
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:14 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: boarding actions
In-Reply-To: <200102132103.NAA23734@mainsheet.verity.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
John Fox said " Of course you could always rewire the engine to go
critical as a last ditch effort to take as many with you as possiblke (if
you were going to loose)"
Aaargh. Remember I was telling you about my nutty engineer Sandor McGann?
While back we found a ship floating dead in space. Went aboard to have a
look... and guess what the power plant started to do? Oh, and all the
external hatches locked down. And the coil stabiliers and compensation
systems went off line...
Well. She didn't blow up. At least not until I'd managed to shut
everything down so it was like a 'pop' and a few bent bulkheads rather
than a lot of radioactive vapour.
Sandor spent some time in the hands of the medics recovering from
radiation sickness. Sandor does not like medics :-)
You really don't want to know what's happened to my LRP character, TechSgt
Mexal...
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:11:31 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>From: hal@buffnet.net
>Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>
>Hello Folks,
> If anyone is looking for "canon" with respect towards Deep Space stations
>- - look to POCKET EMPIRES, put out by Marc Miller himself <grin>.
>
> Hal
And for extra credit, figure out what they cost to operate.
It's terrifying.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:34:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: How a Densitometer Works
In mail you write:
> How does a densitometer works.
>
> It's sending out a signal that penetrates stuff, but rebounds to a
> signal reader, right?
Nope. It's obviously a much improved version of Dr. Forward's Mass
Detector. It measures gravity, and from the gravity versus position
info it gets (either as it is moved, or as it moves sensors internally)
it can determine how much matter is where out to the limit of its range.
"Matter distribution" = "density profile".
Completely *passive* detector.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:30:19 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Population stuff
In mail you write:
>>So they can repair the cruise liners that visit.
>
> A class III can do that easily enough. Class IV's *make* intersystem ships.
>
>>No. It makes ones using the photosynthetic reaction we know of
>>impossible. That doesn't mean that there isn't one that'll work.
>
> I've asked around about alternative methods of chemistry that achieves the
> same goal of photosynthesis, and the answer I got was that there weren't
> any...
And Do you think we'd have been able to postulate photosythesis if we
didn't have working examples in front of us?
Anything that'd work on a world around a type M star would be way too
inefficient to have gotten started on earth.So we won't find it on
earth.
>>Also, for many type M stars, due to things like flares, the wavelengths
>>available *shift* a lot. Which means there might be plants that use the
>>much higher energy radiation when it's available and go mostly dormant
>>in between.
>
> Long enough to sustain life?
Not sure.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:38:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: How a Densitometer Works
In mail you write:
> Steve (Bloo) Daniels writes:
>> How does a densitometer works.
>
> Magic.
Nope. We've got *real world* sensors that do this sort of thing now.
They just aren't as sensitive.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 14:55:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: boarding actions
In mail you write:
> Now this is all based on Steam technology. I have no idea how that could
> relate to Starship engines or powersystems. but you never know.
Until we invent a way to go directly from fusion plasma to electrical
power (possible now with one of the more obscure sorts of fusion
reactor), we'll probably still be using steam turbines.
Though fusion temps make MHD generators a more practical option, if we
can solve some materials problems. Even then, the MHD would likely be a
"topping" cycle:
million degree plasma -> MHD generator -> very hot gases
very hot gases -> heat exchanger -> reactor
the heat exchanger would produce high temp/high pressure steam for the
less power hungry systems.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:06:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: boarding actions
In mail you write:
> On a more "Traveller" note; how many high pressure, high temperature
> fluids and gasses would there be in a starship engineroom? Would a ship use
> steam for anything? Compressed air? Hydraulics?
> IMHO, the engine room would create and distribute electricity to remote
> compressors in order to operate landing gear, cargo hatches, etc. rather
> than create and transmit the needed pneumatic or hydraulic pressure.
There may be efficiency considerations here. It's a *lot* more
efficient to have a couple of pneumatic or hydraulic unit (pairs for
redundancy, you don't want the *only* unit going out) in engineering,
and run high pressure piping around than to have a bunch of *little*
units scattered around.
On one hand the piping is bigger than power cables. On the other hand,
you don't have to try and *fit* those compressors in near the hatches.
It's a tradeoff. And I suspect that on the size of ship most PCs will
be flying, "centralized" wins.
On large, military ships, auxilary equipment rooms (possibly with their
own small fusion plant) will likely carry the day.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:19:57 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
At 1:24 PM +0000 2/13/01, Stephen Tempest wrote:
>"Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk> writes:
>
>
> >>2.) ... the jump drive is turned off?
> >
> >No one knows, no-one has EVER (reliably) reported back. However if you are
> >volunteering to test it, give me a call :-).
>
>So no Imperial Research Station has ever bought a hundred surplus
>scout ships from the IISS, rigged them up with very powerful beacons
>and an automated timer on the jump drive, and fired them off on
>unmanned missions into jumpspace then waited to see if/when they
>reappeared?
There is some question whether ships can be umanned. However, if
take the view they can, then my view would be that this has been
tried a few times and no trace has ever been found. That provides
several possiblities...
1) The ships never come out of jump space.
2) The come out, but are totally destroyed.
3) They are sent someplace where the signal can't be recieved from
(jump drive has been around a couple thousand years, so we are
talking either more than a couple kilolight years or some other place
in time/space that signal couldn't be recieved from.
______________________________
summers@alum.mit.edu
(This is the net. My e-mail address may be in Boston, but I'm in California.)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 17:20:06 -0600
From: "Andy Akins" <andyakins@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Boarding Actions
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The Modular Cutter book, sir, is one I cannot wait to see! I've
always
> had a soft spot in my heart for those multi-purpose, 50dTon, little
rascals.
> Could you let us know when it's due out? Please?
Well I'm glad you're looking forward to it - reactions to the title on this
mailing list have been mixed. I'm certainly proud of it, and think its a
good book. But I think we can safely say I'm slightly biased. I hope you
(and others) enjoy it.
As far as its release date is concerned, I can't say - that's a question
better suited for Loren or someone at SJG. I believe the text is getting
finishing touches at the printers - if true, it could be RSN (real soon
now). On the SJG website, it is listed as being "at the printers". But to be
honest, I'm not in that loop, so I couldn't say for sure.
Andy Akins
co-author, GURPS Traveller:Modular Cutter
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:19:03 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: High Guard and High Guard 2
What is the difference between these 2 books. I am assuming that HG2 is a
different set of rules for ship construction above and beyond the old High
Guard book.
And can someone supply me with the definitions for the Ship profile
indicators if they are different than the old High Guard.
Thanks
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:24:30 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: High Pressure Steam as a weapon
>From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
"The broom handle trick is SOP in just about any power generation
plant/station. They all use high pressure steam regardless of what
they use to heat it with."
"Electric plant switching stations are also very, very dangerous
places."
Does a 57th century starship generate steam and then use it to generate
electricity? Starships components power requirements were first ignored
(B2), required EPs (HG2), then MWs (everyone else). So starships must need
big chunks of juice.
How does the TML believe they generate it?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:23:39 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
Larsen E. Whipsnade <grote1731@hotmail.com> writes:
> I know that Marines prefer the "hey-diddle-diddle, straight up the
>middle" style of tactics, but it seems to me, given a set number of airlocks
>on a ship that know's it is to be boarded, that sending in your assault
>force through said airlocks is a good way to play "Somme in Space".
You've never actually *been* in the Marine Corps, have you? Didn't think so?
Uncle Sam paid us to do a lot of dangerous things, but being stupid, to the
best of my knowledge, was never a part of *ANY* MOS.
> The use of breaching charges on the ship's hull to create many entry
>points would keep the defenders guessing as to where you'll enter and thus
>lessen the chance of booby traps and prepared defenses. At least until you
>reach the bridge, CIC, or main engineering that is.
> For the assualting force, the whole affair might be a fine line between
>using enough firepower to root out the defenders while not damaging the ship
>too badly.
This tactic presupposes 3 factors:
a) the ship being boarded does not need to be space-worthy after boarding.
b) the occupants of the ship being boarded do not need to be taken alive.
c) the attacker has breeching charges powerful enough to pierce a bonded
superdense hull without blowing *BOTH* ships to kingdom come.
- Mark C.
EOD, U.S.M.C. 1st MarDiv (Camp Pendleton), Class of '75
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:30:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: How a Densitometer Works
Leonard Erickson writes:
> In mail you write:
>
> > Steve (Bloo) Daniels writes:
> >> How does a densitometer works.
> >
> > Magic.
>
> Nope. We've got *real world* sensors that do this sort of thing now.
> They just aren't as sensitive.
Doing it with a single sensor, at the ranges and resolutions of traveller
densitometers, without requiring that the sensor be moved extensively, is
magic.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:25:58 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Forboldn (was re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR)
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> writes:
>Hey, did you hear about the new safe sex program on
>Forboldn? They're branding all the groats that kick.
Good one, Glenn. That was almost a keyboard kill! :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:36:55 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: High Guard and High Guard 2
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
"What is the difference between these 2 books. I am assuming that HG2
is a different set of rules for ship construction above and beyond the old
High Guard book."
Mr. Lane,
I'm happy to help. The frontspiece of my HG2 copy states:
"This book is a substantially improved and re-typeset edition of High
Guard, Traveller Book 5, which originally appeared in 1979. It contains
additions, corrections, and changes to the starship design and combat rules
(pages 17 to 52). The introduction and charecter generation system (pages 1
to 16) remains unchanged from the first
edition."
The copyright date of HG2 is 1980. So, I don't think HG1 was in print
for long and that too many copies were distributed.
Hope this helps.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:32:01 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Landmine clearing...
Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net> writes:
>Regards mine clearing I seem to remember a rocket based system which created
>a ground hugging vapor cloud/air fuel mixture which was then detonated. The
>intent was to create an instantaous pressure wave over a large area and pop
>the mines by over pressure. Does anyone recall the system, think it was
>called/abrivated "SLUFAY" or something close. It was supposed to be good
>against bunkers as well.
Actually, Dan, it's "SLUFAE (Surface Launched Unit, Fuel Air Explosive.) It's
built on an M-113A1 APC chassis and consists of a set of 30 launch tubes
for 5" (121.8mm) Zuni rockets. Each rocket is equipped with a Pave Pat Blue
73 fuel air munition warhead. They have a range of 750 yds. Each has a kill
radius of 33 ft. for pressure-fused mines and 112 ft. for pull-fused
trip-wire mines.
They don't work well against bunkers, as they have no real penetration
strength.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:42:29 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
>From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
"Aaargh. Remember I was telling you about my nutty engineer Sandor
McGann?"
Ms. Robertson,
I would be very interested in hearing about how your "nutty engineer'
charecter says a starship's systems work. Specifically, electrical
generation becasue those helpful watts seem to power so many of the
components.
Thank you in advance.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:45:07 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
"It's a tradeoff. And I suspect that on the size of ship most PCs will
be flying, "centralized" wins. On large, military ships, auxilary equipment
rooms (possibly with their own small fusion plant) will likely carry the
day."
Mr. Erickson,
This agrees with my thinking on the subject too. A fact that perhaps
should frighten you...
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:48:12 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Boarding Actions
>From: "Andy Akins" <andyakins@earthlink.net>
"Well I'm glad you're looking forward to it - reactions to the title on
this mailing list have been mixed."
Mr. Akins,
I am saddened to here that, but I am ceratin that once your book
arrives in our FLAGS many of those minds will be changed.
Hope to see it soon.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:43:55 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: High Guard and High Guard 2
Ok then i got HG2. For some reason i was thinking this was some book that
was totally new.
Please forgive my ignorance.
Thank you so much Mr Whipsnade
Your most obedient Servant
Bill 8P
- -----Original Message-----
From: Larsen E. Whipsnade [mailto:grote1731@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 3:37 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: High Guard and High Guard 2
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
"What is the difference between these 2 books. I am assuming that HG2
is a different set of rules for ship construction above and beyond the old
High Guard book."
Mr. Lane,
I'm happy to help. The frontspiece of my HG2 copy states:
"This book is a substantially improved and re-typeset edition of High
Guard, Traveller Book 5, which originally appeared in 1979. It contains
additions, corrections, and changes to the starship design and combat rules
(pages 17 to 52). The introduction and charecter generation system (pages 1
to 16) remains unchanged from the first
edition."
The copyright date of HG2 is 1980. So, I don't think HG1 was in print
for long and that too many copies were distributed.
Hope this helps.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:44:31 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: RW Virus Warning
At 23:05 -0500 12/2/01, "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com> wrote:
>There is a simple solution to these VBScript-based Outlook e-mail viruses
>(besides not using Outlook):
*Buy* a MacOS machine? ;-)
Dom
/I laugh in your general direction, oh vbs virus/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 00:00:16 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
"Though fusion temps make MHD generators a more practical option, if we
can solve some materials problems. Even then, the MHD would likely be a
"topping" cycle:
million degree plasma -> MHD generator -> very hot gases
very hot gases -> heat exchanger -> reactor
the heat exchanger would produce high temp/high pressure steam for the
less power hungry systems."
Mr Erickson,
Although I agree with most of your ideas, I still have qualms about
steam systems aboard spacecraft, except in Space:1889 of course. 8^)
Speaking as someone who ran a steam system, portions of the necessary
cycle would prove difficult to handle in a low or micro gee environment.
Enclosed systems using liquids other then water and relying more on pumps
and thermal differences (like a refridgeration loop, only "backwards") might
prove easier to handle.
I do agree however that the plasma "shiphoned" from the reactor would
have every useful erg removed from it before returning.
Considering the awesome breadth of occupations and educations here on
the list, are there any members involved in fusion research?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 15:56:43 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: Question from merchant prince.
i was reading merchant price for the rules for cargos and such. I came
across something i had not remembered form OH so long ago. a refrence on one
of the pages about Food Synthisers (sp?)
am i reading this right that they have ala star trek food creation
equipment?
that brings a new question to my mind how are ships provisioned? I always
felt that it was sort of like nasa in one way the crews bought special cased
food and some fresh stuff so they could cook and such. if a food synthiser
exists are these things aboard ships? is it some sort of magic panel you say
"teal earl grey hot" and end up with a nice cup of tea and drastic hair loss
all at once?
next if these thigns exist what exactly does it use for raw materials.
I know some of my questions sound like they are coming from a groat herder
who has been herding groats to long.
I really appreciate the time you guys put into answering my silly questions.
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:16:32 -0600
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: Forboldn (was re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR)
Glenn Goffin posted:
>
> >From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
>
> >Grants Pass, OR---Where the men are men and the sheep are really women
> who
>
> Open mike night at the Dead Spacer:
>
> Great, I thinks, we're off to Forboldn, where the men are men and the
> groats are nervous. Hey, did you hear about the new safe sex program on
> Forboldn? They're branding all the groats that kick.
>
> - --Glenn
SSSPLOOOORT!
daNG i!, Glllennnn!
noW hoW am i goMngg to ge! halllf chwed roast bef oU! of M^
ke^board?
daaavvid
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:29:30 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Jump Grid (was boarding actions)
Hello Rob,
>I don't know if or how this affects things (in OTU or YTU),
>but wouldn't cutting into a ships hull sever the jump grid?
>Useful if you don't want a[n immediately] jump capable ship.
>Are there points on the ship not covered by the grid that could
>be used (and the crew could possibly tell that the boarders wanted
>her with the jump grid intact by where they boarded).
Based on the concept that a ship may sustain damage yet be able to jump
away after sustaining such damage, I suspect that rupturing a ship hull
will not ruin its jump capability.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 00:31:49 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
"You've never actually *been* in the Marine Corps, have you? Didn't
think so? Uncle Sam paid us to do a lot of dangerous things, but being
stupid, to the best of my knowledge, was never a part of *ANY* MOS."
Mr. Cook,
I was simply repeating the Army's constant complaint about the Corp
during the Pacific Campaign and did not mean to slight the Corp, or it's
members, in any way. The Corp kept this little squid safe and sound in
variety of nasty places.
As for the Army's complaint, we all know who did all the "heavy
lifting" in the Pacific.
"This tactic presupposes 3 factors:
a) the ship being boarded does not need to be space-worthy after
boarding.
b) the occupants of the ship being boarded do not need to be
taken alive.
c) the attacker has breeching charges powerful enough to pierce a
bonded superdense hull without blowing *BOTH* ships to kingdom come."
Considering HG2's boarding prerequisite that the ship cannot manuever
and has no remaining weapons, I seriously doubt that the vessel is
space-worthy in any real sense. As a result of it's losing battle, the
vessel will probably have additional holes in it's hull besides the number
of existing airlocks. Perhaps these damage points can used for entry.
I believe that an opposed boarding will be vanishingly rare. The ship
has been battered and abandoned by it's forces. I believe the crew would be
busy trying to stay alive, tending to the wounded, and destroying
confidential equipment and documents. By the time the Marines arrived in
their cutters, they would most likely recieve a transmission of surrender
from the target vessel or recieve a surrender personally from the remaining
crew as soon as coming aboard.
If an attack is needed, the speed and audacity of the Marine assault
will usually carry the day, surprising the defenders and breaking their
morale. I would hate to think of the casulties on both sides if the combat
degenerated into Stalingrad-style street fighting.
As for the breaching charges I proposed, others suggested forcing open
or blasting airlocks. Would the airlocks be built out of different
materials than the ship's hull? If not, then what devices are used there?
Other suggestions center around very fast plasma cutting torchs. How
fast would that device have to be to cut through the hull without tipping
off the defenders as to where the assualt will take place?
Once again Mr. Cook, if my misguided attempt to inject a little humor
into my post offended you, you have my sincere apologies. My rather
flippant remark was never intended to besmirch the reputation of the Corp or
it's members.
Larsen
aka William R. Cameron MM1(SW) 1981-1987
USS Dale CG-19
USS California CGN-36
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3661
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Traveller-digest Tuesday, February 13 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3662
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: High Guard and High Guard 2
Re: Deep Space Jumps
RE: boarding actions
Freezing, Cloning, etc.
Re: Looking For...
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Inthe/Regina up for (land)grabs?
Re: About Heya
Re: boarding actions
RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye
RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Re: How a Densitometer Works
re: Hull jump grids
Re: How a Densitometer Works
Re: Landmine clearing...
Re: boarding actions
Re: boarding actions
Re: How a Densitometer Works
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: High Pressure Steam as a weapon
RE: Missing Sites
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 00:38:03 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: High Guard and High Guard 2
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
"Ok then i got HG2. For some reason i was thinking this was some book
that was totally new."
"Please forgive my ignorance."
"Thank you so much Mr Whipsnade"
Mr. Lane,
I am blushing, sir. The pleasure was all mine.
As for you supposed "ignorance", pish-tosh. The only true ignorance is
a question unasked.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:46:56 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Hello Ian,
>And for extra credit, figure out what they cost to operate.
>
>It's terrifying.
Aside from the issue of fuel harvest, how is running a space station in an
uninhabited star system or one with a population rating less than 3, any
different than running one in deep space? Granted, fuel costs would be
such that they would have to include the cost of shipping and handling, but
worst case scenario, lets assume that fuel prices at such a space station
are that of normal prices + 1000. Food costs for transients will be
higher, along with port fees. But if the ship is able to shave off 2 or
more extra jumps, is this not worth the price?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:42:34 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: boarding actions
Question
in frerence to this statment.
"I believe the crew would be
busy trying to stay alive, tending to the wounded, and destroying
confidential equipment and documents."
It was my understanding in HG2 that before ships went into combat they
depressurized. this way if the hull was breached people would not get blown
into space. It seems that to me tending wounded underthis circumstance would
be little more than patching breached vacc suits.
hasta
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 16:45:28 -0800
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Freezing, Cloning, etc.
Roger Sanger wrote:
> > Niven's organ bank stories make me shudder and if you think the
> society
> > he proposed would never come to pass, think about this. There have been
> > several couples over the last few years who have gone to great lengths to
> > concieve and bear a child for the express purpose of harvesting bone marrow
> > or blood factors from it. These "materials" are for the medical treatment
> > of another child, so the entire affair is currently considered "noble". In
> > fact so much so that the parents are lionized in the media. The child
> > providing the "spare parts" isn't consulted about it though.
>
>CRTs will render this practice obsolete fairly soon. Totipotent cells
>harvested
>from zygotes are typically injected into the bone marrow of the patient, from
>where they migrate to other parts of the body, where they differentiate into
>specialized cells. Note, they don't have to migrate far to become marrow
>cells!
For 'zygotes', read 'embryos'. Or, better yet, 'fetuses' or 'unborn
babies' (I don't go this far, but many others do). Then you will see
why, far from rendering the issue of "harvesting children" moot, it takes
it to a whole new level. And one that will only heat up as both the
science and the median age of the population continue to advance.
If I had half the talent of Jonathan Swift, I would pen another Modest
Proposal, in which surplus babies (Irish and otherwise) are put to the
noble use of extending the lives of Respected Elder Citizens, while those
of merely adolescent age - say, fifteen to fifty years - are required to
work without pay to maintain Social Security funding at an acceptable
level. Oh, and revoke their suffrage, too. Can't have uneducated
youngsters with no life experience voting on Important Matters.
ObTrav: There's probably a world out there like this, with or without
anagathics of the Imperial type.
And IIRC, Mr. Sanger, the intent behind mummification was the same as
crionics: ritualized preservation of the body for a rebirth in the
afterworld. The brain was removed because it was considered non-essential,
much like the blood in today's frozen Pharoahs being replaced by other
fluids. The trappings of the ritual change, but the human desire to elude
death is eternal as death itself.
- --------------
Kelly St.Clair "'Cause you've got Trouble
kellys@efn.org Right here in fair Verona
With a capital T that rhymes with D
That stands for Duel..."
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:41:58 -0500
From: "Fred Ramen" <von_rammen@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Looking For...
In the interest of completeness, for the poster who requested HG stats for
the Free Trader, here are the four most commonly encountered ships, done
from scratch under HG2, along with some notes of mine. These aren't
conversions from Book 2 to High Guard, but total redesigns of the ships
using HG.
(This is a repost from a few months ago. I'd have just sent it along, but at
this point I can't remember who started the thread.)
______________________________________________
All designs below take the 20% discount for class designs. The merchant
ships especially become uneconomic without this discount.
Governing tech level is the mininum necessary.
Non-small craft vehicles still require 130% volume for hangarage.
Crew requirements were lifted from Book 2. Costs for small craft were
likewise lifted from Book 2.
Going against High Guard rules, I installed hardpoints at one ton each.
Unless otherwise noted, each ship has the maximum number of hardpoints
(dtons/100).
Type A 200-ton Free Trader
A-2211111-00000-00000-0 MCr 39.66
TL: 9 Crew: 4 Fuel: 22 Cargo: 85.8 Pass: 6 Low: 20
EP: 2 Agility: 1 Vehicles: Air/Raft
The air/raft was included to bring cargo capacity closer to CT canon and
match the great DGP floorplans from the Starship Owner's Guide; cargo is 91
tons without it. In all designs, I have used a MegaTraveller Cr 275,000 cost
for air/rafts.
Type A2 200-ton Far Trader
A2-22212R1-00000-00000-0 MCr 48.3
TL: 11 Crew: 4 Fuel: 44 Cargo: 68.8 Pass: 6 Low: 4
EP: 4 Agility: 2 Vehicles: Air/Raft
Without the class discount, the ship is a very uneconomic MCr 60.375, as
compared to the er...very uneconomic CT MCr 61. Oh, and while we're on the
subject, the floorplans in "Traders and Gunboats" have an displacement at
least twice that of the displacement given for the ship. What gives with
this design?
Type R 400-ton Subsidized Merchant
R-4211111-00000-00000-0 MCr 73.16/91.45
TL: 9 Crew: 5 Fuel: 44 Cargo: 222.5 Pass: 8 Low: 9
EP: 4 Agility: 1 Vehicles: Launch
Cost is closer to canon at MCr 91.45 without class discount.
Type S 100-ton Scout/Courier
S-12222R1-00000-00000-0 MCr 33.04
TL: 11 Crew: 1 Fuel: 22 Cargo: 2 Pass: 3 Low: 0
EP: 2 Agility: 2 Vehicles: Air/Raft
This one is a total botch. I included a second 20 tons of "bridge" to stand
in for the survey sensors and data banks. The ship also costs too much. High
Guard ship design tends to break down at the low tonnages!
Fred "And they only took ten minutes each to design!" Ramen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:41:46 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>From: hal@buffnet.net
"Hello Ian,"
"And for extra credit, figure out what they cost to operate."
"It's terrifying."
"Aside from the issue of fuel harvest, how is running a space station in an
>uninhabited star system or one with a population rating less than 3, any
different than running one in deep space? Granted, fuel costs would be such
that they would have to include the cost of shipping and handling, but worst
case scenario, lets assume that fuel prices at such a space station are that
of normal prices + 1000. Food costs for transients will be higher, along
with port fees. But if the ship is able to shave off 2 or more extra jumps,
is this not worth the price?"
"Hal"
Gentlemen,
And yet...
Every jerkwater, middling-sized, pocket-empire in the back of beyond
can both build and supply one for their piddling military adventures.
Even with my minimal "ice-teroid and maybe a ship" ideas the costs
remain astronomi.. ahem, very high. I'm holding the ledger in one and and
the canon in the other and thinking...
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:20:58 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>
> Hello Ian,
>
> >And for extra credit, figure out what they cost to operate.
> >
> >It's terrifying.
>
> Aside from the issue of fuel harvest, how is running a space station in an
> uninhabited star system or one with a population rating less than 3, any
> different than running one in deep space?
At the risk of sounding rude, that's about like asking, "Other than
that, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?" The issue of putting
fuel where it doesn't exist _is_ the primary problem with commercial
deep-space refueling. A star system, inhabited or not, will have some
fuel source available, simply because hydrogen is so common. You may
need to go into the cometary cloud to _get_ it, but that's still a lot
cheaper than moving fuel to a place where none exists.
> Granted, fuel costs would be
> such that they would have to include the cost of shipping and handling, but
> worst case scenario, lets assume that fuel prices at such a space station
> are that of normal prices + 1000.
However, that is _not_ the worst-case scenario. Indeed, it doesn't come
close to the economics of transporting fuel to a deep-space depot where
no fuel exists. After all, to establish a deep-space refueling point
requires the fuel-carrying ship to make _two_ jumps to deliver a given
tonnage of fuel to a deep-space refueling point (the ship must return
empty from the deep-space refueling point). At Cr 1000 per dton of
freight per jump, each ton of fuel at such a point would cost _at least_
somewhat more than Cr 2100 (for unrefined fuel).
As an example, using canonical ships:
A 400-ton Fat Trader, capable of J-1, has about 200 dtons of cargo
capacity. To stock a deep-space refueling point with fuel, the Fat
Trader would jump one parsec (using 40 dtons of integral fuel tankage),
deliver about 160 dtons of fuel to the refueling point (200 dtons minus
the 40 dtons of fuel required to return), then jump back to the starting
system (using the remaining 40 dtons of fuel stored in the cargo hold).
Since the ship's profitability is calculated based on moving 200 dtons
of cargo per jump (at Cr 1000 per dton), the ship must charge _five
times_ as much per dton of fuel delivered (80 dtons of cargo delivered
over two jumps, divided by the potential 400 dtons of cargo that could
be delivered over two jumps). If such ships are used to stock fuel for
a deep-space refueling point, then each dton of unrefined fuel at such a
point would cost Cr 5100. This seems to be far more expensive than the
increased trade would tend to justify.
For most commercial traffic, fitting extra fuel tankage inside the cargo
hold is a cheaper option (that way, a shipping line only has to pay the
cargo penalty for the fuel needed for the extra jump, rather than paying
both that penalty and the fuel usage for the tanker to return to base).
Food costs for transients will be
> higher, along with port fees. But if the ship is able to shave off 2 or
> more extra jumps, is this not worth the price?
Building ships with the required jump capability is likely to be less
expensive in the long run, unless the gap is beyond current jump
technology. Alternately, fitting extra fuel tankage in short-legged
cargo ships will also normally be cheaper than setting up deep-space
fuel depots.
Naturally, none of the cost analyses apply to military operations, since
many warships lack sufficient spare cargo space to mount the extra fuel
tankage needed to avoid the necessity of deep-space refueling.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:27:57 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: Inthe/Regina up for (land)grabs?
If not, here's my claim.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:39:07
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: About Heya
At 10:08 AM 2/13/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>What system did you sue to generate heya? i have the core rules of traveller
>but i want to go beyond that for Rio.
_GURPS Traveller: First In_
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 18:44:21
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
At 08:33 PM 2/13/2001 -0000, you wrote:
> HG2, the only Traveller product that provides details on boarding
>actions (the only one so far to be more accurate), requires a few
>prerequisites for an yboarding to be attempted.
GT: Ground Forces, sidebar, page 45-47.
I give standards for targets, procedures, and a recap of the _Bard Endeavour_.
Not to sound too snitty here, but there have been things written recently
that expand upon old canon. In CT you also find boarding references in
_Azhanti High Ligtning_.
- --
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"But that's not the point!" raged Ford. "The point is that I am now a
perfectly safe penguin, and my colleague here is rapidly running out of
limbs!" - The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:47:31 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: RE: [TML] The Flaming Eye
Larsen wrote:
> My thanks for understanding sir. I am seem to started one minor
flame
>war and stupidly added my meager bits of fuel to another during my
decidedly
>short time here on the TML.
You have NOT started any "flame wars" yet. (Unless that was you that
started that religion thing, and that was minor by TML standards). You
may have thrown a few sparks, but keep posting you will eventually start
a "flame war" when you least expect to.
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:32:39 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Jesse wrote:
>Nope, it's straight from the deckplans created from the silhouette of
the
>ship that appear in SOM & G:T since. I don't know if there's a print
>reference to looking like a subbie......Anybody have a quote?
FASA adventure class ships.
the only deckplans of a corsair I remember.
Just checked SOM, and the silhouette does look like it might try
disguises as a sub liner.
The one in MT Imperial Encyolopedia looks like a cross between a Sub
liner and patrol cruiser.
I guess the other thing that made me think that is that it is the same
size as the subbie.
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:45:15 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: How a Densitometer Works
Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
>
> > How does a densitometer works.
> >
> > It's sending out a signal that penetrates stuff, but rebounds to a
> > signal reader, right?
>
> Nope. It's obviously a much improved version of Dr. Forward's Mass
> Detector. It measures gravity, and from the gravity versus position
> info it gets (either as it is moved, or as it moves sensors internally)
> it can determine how much matter is where out to the limit of its range.
>
> "Matter distribution" = "density profile".
>
> Completely *passive* detector.
Okey doke. But does its detection range stop at the first
really dense thing? Could it detect an empty pocket in a block
of granite if it could only examine one side?
I can see how it might, if it were sensitive to 'range' through the
entire block, but surely there is some limit to its ability. I'm interested
in where that might reasonably be.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:50:09 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Hull jump grids
...
> What is the TML concensus on MT's hull jump grid? Is it a best avoided
>gaffe like the jump fuel ruling, or is it pretty much accepted?
Oh, for ghod's sake, please have the courtesy to yell "fire in the
hole" or something equally helpful before sending a post like this!
<CT/> It's a gaffe, with no basis in _real_ Trav </CT> :)
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:50:51 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: How a Densitometer Works
on 2/13/01 12:43 PM, Anthony Jackson at ajackson@molly.iii.com wrote:
> Steve (Bloo) Daniels writes:
>> How does a densitometer works.
>
> Magic. Related to the traveller Meson. Presumably it sends a short pulse,
> of which part of the energy penetrates, and part reflects, based on the
> thickness of material being penetrated. You then measure the intensity of
> reflected energy with time to determine the internal shape of the the object.
> Should have resolution which is inversely proportional to penetration, and
> thus wouldn't be effective at detecting small deeply buried objects.
>
Couldn't one calculate density based on volume and generated gravitational
pull (with the mass that is implied)?
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:55:11 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Landmine clearing...
on 2/12/01 2:41 PM, Daniel Phelps at phelpsd@gate.net wrote:
> Regards mine clearing I seem to remember a rocket based system which created
> a ground hugging vapor cloud/air fuel mixture which was then detonated. The
> intent was to create an instantaous pressure wave over a large area and pop
> the mines by over pressure. Does anyone recall the system, think it was
> called/abrivated "SLUFAY" or something close. It was supposed to be good
> against bunkers as well.
>
> Dan
>
>
Maybe you're thinking of APOBS
http://mcdweb.pica.army.mil/apobs.html
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:15:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: boarding actions
In mail you write:
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> "It's a tradeoff. And I suspect that on the size of ship most PCs will
> be flying, "centralized" wins. On large, military ships, auxilary equipment
> rooms (possibly with their own small fusion plant) will likely carry the
> day."
>
> Mr. Erickson,
> This agrees with my thinking on the subject too. A fact that perhaps
> should frighten you...
No, actually, it should frighten *you*. <eg>
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 19:20:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: boarding actions
In mail you write:
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> "Though fusion temps make MHD generators a more practical option, if we
> can solve some materials problems. Even then, the MHD would likely be a
> "topping" cycle:
>
> million degree plasma -> MHD generator -> very hot gases
> very hot gases -> heat exchanger -> reactor
>
> the heat exchanger would produce high temp/high pressure steam for the
> less power hungry systems."
>
> Mr Erickson,
> Although I agree with most of your ideas, I still have qualms about
> steam systems aboard spacecraft, except in Space:1889 of course. 8^)
> Speaking as someone who ran a steam system, portions of the necessary
> cycle would prove difficult to handle in a low or micro gee environment.
Which means you don't use the steam cycle if the gravity is off.
> Enclosed systems using liquids other then water and relying more on pumps
> and thermal differences (like a refridgeration loop, only "backwards") might
> prove easier to handle.
> I do agree however that the plasma "shiphoned" from the reactor would
> have every useful erg removed from it before returning.
Well, the problem is that once the plasma temp drops low enough to be
poorly conducting, MHD doesn't work anymore. But it's *still* really
hot.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:15:53 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: How a Densitometer Works
Bloo wrote:
>How does a densitometer works.
>
>It's sending out a signal that penetrates stuff, but rebounds to a
>signal
>reader, right? That means, when it reaches material with density X,
>it can't penetrate it and the signal rebounds. If it doesn't reach
>density
>X, how does the signal get back?
Densitometers are passive sensors, they do not emit a signal. They read
the local gravity fields.
denser objects produce a stronger gravity field.
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:56:28 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Hello John,
I reverse engineered the CT 200 ton trader to get the 200 ton Tanker...
A purpose built tanker on a 200 ton hull would use 30 tons of fuel, or
60 tons two ways. It has a carrying capacity of 82 tons (less the 30 it
needs to return home) plus 7x4 for the unneeded passenger staterooms and
unneeded steward. It also has an additional 10 tons of cargo space due to
the lack of freeze tubes. Without fire control, that is an additional 2
tons. Grand total fuel tankage: 82+28+10+2-30 = 92 tons.
Cost of ship? Assuming that this is not one of a kind, and that there are
a few floating about at other deep space stations (note: this was built
using CT rules, not HG rules)
200 ton hull with Standard A drives across the board: MCr8
3 staterooms: 1.5 MCr
Ship Bridge: 1.0 MCr
Model 1 comp: 2.0 MCr
3 drive A's: 22.0 MCr
Streamlined: 2.0 Mcr
10% discount: -3.65 Mcr
Total Cost: 32.85 MCr
Monthly cost: crew: Pilot, Engineer, Medic (if medic is not included, then
cargo capacity is +4, price is -.5MCr) 12,000 for salaries. Ship's monthy
load cost is 136,875 assuming that the company put only 20% down. Include
the fact that maintenance costs .1% of the ship's cost, and we get a total
of 2,737.5 credits per month expense.
What is the balance sheet?
Crew: Salary 12,000
Life support: 12,000 12,000
Loan Payment: 136,875
Maintenance costs: 2,738
- -------------------------------------------------------
Expenses: 163,613
Revenues: 184 tons per month
Dividing the 163,613 by 184, we find that the tanker needs to make 890
credits per ton to break even! At 1,000 credits per ton, the ship is
making roughtly 12% profit. Fuel prices do not need to soar above the
1,100 credits level per ton of unrefined fuel, or 1,500 for refined fuel.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:53:37 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: High Pressure Steam as a weapon
Larsen wrote:
> Does a 57th century starship generate steam and then use it to
generate
>electricity? Starships components power requirements were first
ignored
>(B2), required EPs (HG2), then MWs (everyone else). So starships must
need
>big chunks of juice.
> How does the TML believe they generate it?
IMTU The inside of the reactor vessel is lined with "solidstate"
conversion equipment (solar cells, piezoelectric convertors, etc) to
convert the energy/radiation to electricty that would otherwise only
heat the vessel. The exhaust would then be sent through an MHD
generator.
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:48:09 -0800
From: clifford n linehan <cnl.rubicon@juno.com>
Subject: RE: Missing Sites
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 01:27:20 -0000 From: "Peter Scarrott"
<peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
>With all these site reviews going on I decided to really get some work
on
>updating my site :-), the fact that I have 10 days off is helping of
>course.
>Anyway whilst checking my links I found some sites missing, can anyone
help
>with the following.
>
>Clifford Linehan's project to map the entire Zhodani Core Expedition
>sectors website
>Original Url : http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller
>
>Peter
My website has not moved and I have no intention of moving it at this
time.
Clifford Linehan - cnl.rubicon@juno.com
http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller
Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3662
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3663
Date: | 2/14/01 12:50:25 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 14 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3663
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: boarding actions
RE:HELP!!!
Re: boarding actions
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re : Population stuff
Re : Population stuff
Re : How a Densitometer Works
Re: boarding actions
Re: Real life suspended animation
Re: Re : Population stuff
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Missing Digests
Re: Population stuff
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Subsector names needed
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: Deep Space Jumps
re: A Secret History of Jump Drive [long]
re: A Secret History of Jump Drive [long]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 04:59:43 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
"GT: Ground Forces, sidebar, page 45-47.
I give standards for targets, procedures, and a recap of the _Bard
Endeavour_."
"Not to sound too snitty here, but there have been things written
recently that expand upon old canon. In CT you also find boarding
references in_Azhanti High Ligtning_."
Mr. Berry,
Thanks for the information. I'll have to pick up GT:Ground Forces.
Although I own a copy of AHL, I'm too lazy to go rooting about in the attic.
I do remember pushing the pieces through several of the scenarios; the
Zhodani one with warbots on the main battery deck, the Solomani assault on
the hanger deck, and fleeing the blobs all stand out among my little grey
cells.
Does anything in the AHL books describe HOW the boaders arrive at the
vessel, or HOW they get inside, or WHAT condition the vessel has to be in
before an attmept is made?
Those descriptions would be very interesting!
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 21:01:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Don Roberts <tne1201@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE:HELP!!!
HELP!!
I have been searching and searching. About two or
three weeks ago I followed a link from someone's
Traveller web page and found a comic strip that was
being continually updated. It was very funny but I
can't seem to remember the name of it. It had this
funny little blue guy and his robot friend as well as
a female vargr-like creature. I can't remember how I
got to it and stupidly did not bookmark it. If anyone
knows what I am talking about and can tell me how to
find this on the web I would be eternally grateful.
Thanks
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 05:20:16 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
"Which means you don't use the steam cycle if the gravity is off."
Mr. Erickson,
I guess our next design decision would be to insure that the gravitic
systems operate either off the energy drawn directly from the tokamak or an
energy storage device. That would give the black gang the gravity they
needed to restart the steam cycle after an engineering casualty.
Trying to come up with some sort of percentage breakdown between the
power generated directly by the tokamak and that which is generated by the
steam cycle could be fun too. After a main plant scram, how load would
engineering have to shed? Dump weapons? Sensors? Thrust? Perhaps a
mixture of all of them? Sort of similar to SFB's energy alotments each
turn?
Hope to hear your thoughts on this soon.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:20:33 +1100
From: Phill Webb <pwebbtrav@yarranet.net.au>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>
> What is the balance sheet?
> Crew: Salary 12,000
> Life support: 12,000 12,000
> Loan Payment: 136,875
> Maintenance costs: 2,738
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Expenses: 163,613
> Revenues: 184 tons per month
>
> Dividing the 163,613 by 184, we find that the tanker needs to make 890
> credits per ton to break even! At 1,000 credits per ton, the ship is
> making roughtly 12% profit. Fuel prices do not need to soar above the
> 1,100 credits level per ton of unrefined fuel, or 1,500 for refined
> fuel.
Who's buying the fuel that's being transported (presumebly the station)?
Wouldn't this ship be owned by the station and nobody pays for the
freighting? So scratch that Cr1000/ton income (or rather get it back by
charging more when reselling) and turn it into a debit of the price of
the fuel.
If it's being skimmed how much of the turnaround time will be spent
skimming and then refining (I can't remember if any of the rules sets
give a time required to skim) and will the system it's being skimmed
from be charging some sort of fee?
And more importantly why not spend all that money on jump 2 traders in
the first place?
Phill
- --
Read my FudgeT Notes at http://www.yarranet.net.au/phill/fudge/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 00:50:21 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
The ship that is doing the skimming is the tanker itself. It doesn't go to
the space port to refine the fuel, since the deep space station is presumed
to be at least a class C or B station. The fuel is free except for what it
costs to refine it. I assumed that the cost of refining the fuel is no
more than the difference between refined and unrefined fuel. You can be
sure that someone is making a profit selling it at 500 Cr per ton when
unrefined costs 100. Then again too, the 100 Cr per ton means that someone
was making a profit just by skimming and bringing the stuff to the nearest
star port refinery.
>Who's buying the fuel that's being transported (presumebly the station)?
>Wouldn't this ship be owned by the station and nobody pays for the
>freighting? So scratch that Cr1000/ton income (or rather get it back by
>charging more when reselling) and turn it into a debit of the price of
>the fuel.
Indeed, I assumed that the tanker is owned by the station itself. I also
assumed that in order to make that 12% profit margin, the station was
increasing the cost of the fuel from 100 Cr to 1,100 Cr for shipping and
handling, or 1,500 for shipping and handling fuel that was refined on site.
>If it's being skimmed how much of the turnaround time will be spent
>skimming and then refining (I can't remember if any of the rules sets
>give a time required to skim) and will the system it's being skimmed
>from be charging some sort of fee?
The assumption here is that turn around time doesn't really matter. If
skimming can be achieved in 1 day, the refining aspect can be done at the
station at leisure.
>And more importantly why not spend all that money on jump 2 traders in
>the first place?
two things to note here:
If you use the CT rules strictly as written, Jump 2 ships cannot survive
*unless* they use speculative trading. The meat and potatoes aspect of
simply shipping and carrying passengers is not possible. Perhaps I am
mis-remembering my past math on the topic, but I recall actually trying to
run a jump-2 ship without speculation, and found that I couldn't do it.
The second thing to note is that we are discussing the feasibility of deep
space stations for jump 1 drive ships. This assumes two things:
a) there are far more jump 1 ships about than jump 2 in CT
b) that there was once upon a time where jump 2 ships weren't even on the
drawing boards... <wink>
All things considered?
Build large hulled ships and jump them to the deep space location. Remove
the jump drives and jump in with the tanker plus a salvage/construction
crew. They remove what is needed, and the ships that jumped in can survive
on the proceeds of 184 tons of fuel (good enough for 6 200 ton freighters).
Bring in more materials and equipment and convert the derelict ship into a
thriving space station complete with fuel refiners, staterooms, and so
forth. Jump more ships in using the salvaged jump drives. Add those hulls
to the original and keep on building until you have a thriving station able
to handle the needs of deep space station duties. Inside those 200 ton
freighters, you can put up prefabs and build those on site. The real issue
then becomes a matter of building life support facilities and bringing in
the food the station needs. This alone will supply some traders the
required route where they can earn their incomes.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:04:28 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Population stuff
hal@buffnet.net wrote :-
>> No. It makes ones using the photosynthetic reaction we know of
>> impossible. That doesn't mean that there isn't one that'll work.
>
> I've asked around about alternative methods of chemistry that
> achieves the same goal of photosynthesis, and the answer I got was
> that there weren't any...
??
In essence we're postulating alternate ways to :-
6CO2 + 6H2O + energy -> C6H12O6 + 6O2
Alternate forms of 'chlorophyll' using other metals for co-ordination and
different organic portions will have different absorption spectra. How long
are the wavelengths put out by the 'dim M-type' stars you talked about
earlier? Chlorophyll has a peak at 7 micrometres.
In general terms, hypothetical central metabolic pathways take the
following general form:-
'biomolecule' + 'reactant' <-> 'breakdown products' + energy
'Aerobic' respiration is the forward reaction ->
'Photosynthesis' is the reverse one <-
Reactant ('inhaled') Breakdown Product of Reactant ('exhaled')
Oxygen Carbon dioxide and water
Nitrogen Ammonia or urea (NH2 - CO - NH2)*
Sulphur Hydrogen sulphide
Hydrogen peroxide Water
Chlorine Chlorides
Methane Carbon dioxide
Phosgene Carbon dioxide
Hydrogen Methane
Ammonia Nitric acid
Hydrogen sulphide Sulphuric acid
* nitrogen synthesis very energetically expensive, so unlikely.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:05:06 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Population stuff
hal@buffnet.net wrote :-
>> No. It makes ones using the photosynthetic reaction we know of
>> impossible. That doesn't mean that there isn't one that'll work.
>
> I've asked around about alternative methods of chemistry that
> achieves the same goal of photosynthesis, and the answer I got was
> that there weren't any...
??
In essence we're postulating alternate ways to :-
6CO2 + 6H2O + energy -> C6H12O6 + 6O2
Alternate forms of 'chlorophyll' using other metals for co-ordination and
different organic portions will have different absorption spectra. How long
are the wavelengths put out by the 'dim M-type' stars you talked about
earlier? Chlorophyll has a peak at 7 micrometres.
In general terms, hypothetical central metabolic pathways take the
following general form:-
'biomolecule' + 'reactant' <-> 'breakdown products' + energy
'Aerobic' respiration is the forward reaction ->
'Photosynthesis' is the reverse one <-
Reactant ('inhaled') Breakdown Product of Reactant ('exhaled')
Oxygen Carbon dioxide and water
Nitrogen Ammonia or urea (NH2 - CO - NH2)*
Sulphur Hydrogen sulphide
Hydrogen peroxide Water
Chlorine Chlorides
Methane Carbon dioxide
Phosgene Carbon dioxide
Hydrogen Methane
Ammonia Nitric acid
Hydrogen sulphide Sulphuric acid
* nitrogen synthesis very energetically expensive, so unlikely.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:06:41 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : How a Densitometer Works
Bloo Daniels wrote :-
> How does a densitometer works.
We need to estimate volume and mass.
Volume may be measured or estimated by photography, sonography, ground
penetrating radar, etc.
Mass can be inferred using a gravity gradiometer.
Check out Robert Forward's essay on black holes in 'Indistinguishable From
Magic'.
It's apparently possible to detect masses in the gram range from 0.3m away,
100kg masses from 2m, etc.
> If not, how can a hand-held style densitometer work?
You plug in a guesstimate of volume, and the unit's internal gradiometer
tries to sense the mass.
Vehicle sized or sensor arrays might be more useful for planetary surveying.
Anthony's caveats regarding resolution and range still apply.
> Doing it with a single sensor, at the ranges and resolutions of
> traveller densitometers, without requiring that the sensor be moved
> extensively, is magic.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:07:21 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
Larsen Whipsnade wrote :-
> The trainers told us that 1000+ PSI superheated steam had enough
> benefits (immediately cauterizes blood vessels, destroys nerves,
> etc.) that hospitals would use it for amputations if it weren't so
> expensive to produce compared to the small amount of amputations they
perform.
Amputations are a little more complex than just cutting off the damaged bit.
You need to form a flap to close the cut end of the limb off.
The steam jet may not be as easy to control as a Gigli saw.
The steam would certainly sterilise the raw end (among other things), but
the technique would seem to have little or no advantage over traditional
tools in skilled hands in theatre conditions.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:07:26 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Real life suspended animation
Roger Sanger wrote :-
<snipola>
> Pharoahs sustained 100% relevant cellular damage (their brains were
> removed through their noses and entirely destroyed), while cryonics
> patients currently sustain only 1%. That sure is an improvement.
How is the latter figure derived? What constitutes 'damage' in the situation
of the corpsicle?
If we consider that the average adult human is made up of 10^14 cells,
1% is 10^12 cells, or about a kilo of dead tissue.
If we think about the brain, 1% of the brain turning into mush could be
lethal (intracranial bleeds of ~10mL or so can kill).
> As for dealing with 1% cellular damage upon revivification, this
> relies on general medical technological advancement,
<snip>
As you say, providing the brain is preserved, revivification is
theoretically possible.
Some tantalising steps forward have been made, but there's a long way to go
yet.
The transition from cryobiology to haemoperfusion (core temperature over 20
degrees C) will be a difficult one. At least there's a lot of experience
with the latter.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
(Anaesthesia and Intensive Care)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:19:48 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Re : Population stuff
>> I've asked around about alternative methods of chemistry that
>> achieves the same goal of photosynthesis, and the answer I got was
>> that there weren't any...
>
>??
>In essence we're postulating alternate ways to :-
>6CO2 + 6H2O + energy -> C6H12O6 + 6O2
The key here would be "how much energy"? Specifically, could you get those
energy levels in the output of the M class star?
>Alternate forms of 'chlorophyll' using other metals for co-ordination and
>different organic portions will have different absorption spectra. How long
>are the wavelengths put out by the 'dim M-type' stars you talked about
>earlier? Chlorophyll has a peak at 7 micrometres.
Based on an astrophysic's professor's web site (I sure hope I can find it
again!), there is a formula for calculating the peak output of a star.
According to what I read, the peak output of M class stars were *way* low.
Since you seem to be knowledgable <grin>, perhaps you can answer the
following questions:
1) the presumption is that the environment is a cold one. As such,
chemical reactions would be somewhat sluggish right?
2) photosysnthesis is not the only method of converting environmental
energy into life sustaining energy. Case in point would be the sulfur
metabolising bacteria deep in the oceans near volcanic vents. Can you or
anyone else for that matter, create any kind of life capable of freeing
Oxygen molecules from water, Carbon Di-oxide, or any other kind of oxide
that would free enough oxygen *without* killing the organism that needs to
sustain this kind of reaction? If you can, I'd be more than happy to
change my views on M class stars holding oxygen atmospheres. As it stands
now, I hypothesize that any animal that is to survive in a cold environment
needs to have good insulation, large body mass, and an efficient breathing
system (much like seals, Dolphins, Penguins, etc...)
The reason I would be happy to change my views is that I am not by any
means an expert, but like any parrot, spew back those words I have read.
For now, I know just enough to open my mouth and remove all doubt that I am
an idiot <grin>. But then again, I can't correct my thinking if I don't
know what's broke right?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:45:51 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
> Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:56:28 -0800
> From: hal@buffnet.net
> Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>
> Hello John,
> I reverse engineered the CT 200 ton trader to get the 200 ton Tanker...
>
> A purpose built tanker on a 200 ton hull would use 30 tons of fuel, or
> 60 tons two ways. It has a carrying capacity of 82 tons (less the 30 it
> needs to return home) plus 7x4 for the unneeded passenger staterooms and
> unneeded steward. It also has an additional 10 tons of cargo space due to
> the lack of freeze tubes. Without fire control, that is an additional 2
> tons. Grand total fuel tankage: 82+28+10+2-30 = 92 tons.
> Cost of ship? Assuming that this is not one of a kind, and that there are
> a few floating about at other deep space stations (note: this was built
> using CT rules, not HG rules)
>
> 200 ton hull with Standard A drives across the board: MCr8
> 3 staterooms: 1.5 MCr
> Ship Bridge: 1.0 MCr
> Model 1 comp: 2.0 MCr
> 3 drive A's: 22.0 MCr
> Streamlined: 2.0 Mcr
> 10% discount: -3.65 Mcr
> Total Cost: 32.85 MCr
>
>
> Monthly cost: crew: Pilot, Engineer, Medic (if medic is not included, then
> cargo capacity is +4, price is -.5MCr) 12,000 for salaries. Ship's monthy
> load cost is 136,875 assuming that the company put only 20% down. Include
> the fact that maintenance costs .1% of the ship's cost, and we get a total
> of 2,737.5 credits per month expense.
>
> What is the balance sheet?
> Crew: Salary 12,000
> Life support: 12,000 12,000
> Loan Payment: 136,875
> Maintenance costs: 2,738
> - -------------------------------------------------------
> Expenses: 163,613
> Revenues: 184 tons per month
>
> Dividing the 163,613 by 184, we find that the tanker needs to make 890
> credits per ton to break even! At 1,000 credits per ton, the ship is
> making roughtly 12% profit. Fuel prices do not need to soar above the
> 1,100 credits level per ton of unrefined fuel, or 1,500 for refined fuel.
>
>
> Hal
Permit me to point out a few errors.
1) You can probably get by with just the one load of Power fuel for the
month
that adds 10 tons to the payload which helps because...
2) You need to buy the fuel that your shipping at 1,100 credits per, and
3) Civilian opperations usually allow two weeks per jump meaning a
true turnaround time of 4 weeks so you don't get to double
payload in your calcs.
Which roughly means this ship will need to make roughly four times
the amount of money you propose. With good operations management
and a little luck you might be able to shave off a week of that turn arround
time. I doubt you could get it down much farther though without taking
horrendous risks on the safety side.
Deep space caches are a militarily usefull ploy that doesn't seem
to work for civilians.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:51:31 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Missing Digests
I seem to be missing Digest #3644 through #3653
(possibly related to this .vbs thing that's going arround)
Would they have made it to the archive site already?
If so where are the archives located at the moment?
(I should know but I don't)
If not could some kind soul get in touch with me
about sending them along (please don't just send them
that's a buncha wasted bandwidth)
Thanks Muchly
David Shayne
daveshayne@msn.com
(yes I'm pretty sure that's why I'm missing digests)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:15:08 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Population stuff
On 13 Feb 2001, at 16:46, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> >No. It makes ones using the photosynthetic reaction we know of
> >impossible. That doesn't mean that there isn't one that'll work.
> I've asked around about alternative methods of chemistry that achieves the
> same goal of photosynthesis, and the answer I got was that there weren't
> any...
Uhmm, I think you'll find that life around deep sea vents ("black smokers")
is not sustained by photosynthesis (several km under the sea you don't get
a lot of light or any other EM radiation for that matter) but a process known
as chemosynthesis. Unfortunately, I don't know enough to say how it
works (presumably its some form of chemical reaction), but it is quite
capable of sustaining life.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 02:18:11 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Hello David,
>Permit me to point out a few errors.
>
>1) You can probably get by with just the one load of Power fuel for the
>month
> that adds 10 tons to the payload which helps because...
Good point, I forgot about that. It does add 10 extra tons, but it doesn't
really matter in the overall scheme of things. 10 tons is only a small
percentage of what I indicated earlier.
>3) Civilian opperations usually allow two weeks per jump meaning a
> true turnaround time of 4 weeks so you don't get to double
> payload in your calcs.
Civilian schedules permit 1 jump every 2 weeks. I used the same schedule
for the fuel tender. That is why life support for 3 people was 12,000
(2,000 per jump per cabin x 3 people x 2 jumps). It takes a matter of only
a day to skim the fuel direct from the gas giant. It takes perhaps a day
to refine it, or even perhaps 3. It doesn't take long to move 100
planetary diameters away from a gas giant and jump directly to the space
port. At most, we are looking at something like 12 day turn arounds
including the jump time. Keeping things simple, I assumed a full 2 weeks
<grin>.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:19:37 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
Subject: Subsector names needed
Does anyone know the names of subsectors M, N, O & P of Ilelish sector.
Jimmy Simpson
nimrodd@mail.com
"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
-Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:04:20 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
Douglas E. Berry wrote :
> At 10:02 PM 2/13/2001 +1300, you wrote:
> >> Dare I ask. I'm not sure TML members should be interbreeding.
> >
> >Hmm, Kenji Aradia Berry anyone ?
> >
> >(apologies to those named and their significant others)
>
> Why apologize? After all, I *am* married to Kiri. :)
OK, go on, spill it.
I disctinctly remember you mentioning a "Kirsten" at some point.
Or is bigamy acceptable over there now ?
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:01:11 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>From: hal@buffnet.net
>Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>
>Hello John,
> I reverse engineered the CT 200 ton trader to get the 200 ton Tanker...
>
Hal, thanks for doing this ... it's good work.
> A purpose built tanker on a 200 ton hull would use 30 tons of fuel, or
>60 tons two ways. It has a carrying capacity of 82 tons (less the 30 it
>needs to return home) plus 7x4 for the unneeded passenger staterooms and
>unneeded steward. It also has an additional 10 tons of cargo space due to
>the lack of freeze tubes. Without fire control, that is an additional 2
>tons. Grand total fuel tankage: 82+28+10+2-30 = 92 tons.
Wait a second guys. 30 dtons of fuel for a 200 dton ship to do a jump-1 ? Shouldnt it be 20 dtons of
fuel per jump-1 for this ship ?
>Cost of ship? Assuming that this is not one of a kind, and that there are
>a few floating about at other deep space stations (note: this was built
>using CT rules, not HG rules)
>
>200 ton hull with Standard A drives across the board: MCr8
>3 staterooms: 1.5 MCr
>Ship Bridge: 1.0 MCr
>Model 1 comp: 2.0 MCr
No backup computer ? It's a finicky point, but even FS has it's safety rules :)
>3 drive A's: 22.0 MCr
>Streamlined: 2.0 Mcr
Why streamlined, given that it makes it's money in deep space ? OK, so we'll assume that the
streamlining and the spare computer cancel out.
>10% discount: -3.65 Mcr
>Total Cost: 32.85 MCr
>
>
>Monthly cost: crew: Pilot, Engineer, Medic (if medic is not included, then
>cargo capacity is +4, price is -.5MCr) 12,000 for salaries. Ship's monthy
>load cost is 136,875 assuming that the company put only 20% down. Include
>the fact that maintenance costs .1% of the ship's cost, and we get a total
>of 2,737.5 credits per month expense.
>
>What is the balance sheet?
>Crew: Salary 12,000
>Life support: 12,000 12,000
>Loan Payment: 136,875
>Maintenance costs: 2,738
>- -------------------------------------------------------
>Expenses: 163,613
>Revenues: 184 tons per month
>
>Dividing the 163,613 by 184, we find that the tanker needs to make 890
>credits per ton to break even! At 1,000 credits per ton, the ship is
>making roughtly 12% profit. Fuel prices do not need to soar above the
>1,100 credits level per ton of unrefined fuel, or 1,500 for refined fuel.
Thats fair, assuming a week to jump in, plus the week it takes to jump out with empty tanks.
Lets accept those numbers, for the sake of the argument (I think the security issue is still an issue, but
I'll leave it to one side).
Is it more economic to buy 20 dtons of fuel at these rates, and take about 18 days to get the cargo to
port in a jump-1 ship, or to ship it in a jump-2 ship ?
I dont have a copy of book 2 (I use FFS2 for ships), but the above design should be pretty easy to
retrofit into a jump-2 Far Trader.
Remember that 18 days (2 jumps, plus a day into and out of port, plus a day to load and a day to
unload) means that the jump-1 ship must make more profit per voyage. The jump-2 ship needs 11 days
for the same run, which means it needs to make less profit per run.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 00:14:57 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: A Secret History of Jump Drive [long]
>Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:52:32 GMT
>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
>Subject: A Secret History of Jump Drive [long]
>
>Or, how one item of technology shaped 10,000 years of human history...
...
Allow me to congratulate this piece - canonical or not,
it does succeed in solving many of the issues debated on
the TML, AFAIK. Are there any major errors/absences?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 00:49:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: A Secret History of Jump Drive [long]
>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
[excellent prose deleted]
>(I was never given a newbie essay assignment, so consider
>that my entry...)
Wow -- a newbie who not only actually wrote his essay assignment, but
actually developed its concept from scratch -- and did a good job on it!
I'm impressed.
- --Glenn
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End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3663
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3664
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Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 14 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3664
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Forboldn (was re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR)
Re: Forboldn
Re: boarding actions
Re: Hull jump grids
Re: How a Densitometer Works
Re: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
Re: HELP!!!
RE: HELP!!!
(no subject)
(no subject)
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Re : Population stuff
RE: Land Grab ideas
Re: Re : Population stuff
Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3662
RE:HELP!!!
Civility and Politeness.
RE:HELP!!!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 00:53:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Forboldn (was re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR)
Thanks, Mark. Those are both Idaho jokes. They're actually Owyhee County
jokes. I used to live in Idaho (in oh-so-cosmopolitan Ada County), and we
told Owyhee County jokes. One way to tell if you live in Owyhee County is
if, when you're giving directions to your house, you say something like,
"after the paved road ends ..."
- --Glenn
***************************************
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Forboldn (was re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR)
Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> writes:
>Hey, did you hear about the new safe sex program on
>Forboldn? They're branding all the groats that kick.
Good one, Glenn. That was almost a keyboard kill! :^)
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Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:05:54 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Forboldn
>From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net>
>SSSPLOOOORT!
>
>daNG i!, Glllennnn!
>
>noW hoW am i goMngg to ge! halllf chwed roast bef oU! of M^
>ke^board?
>
>daaavvid
It sounds like getting it out of your nose may be your first priority.
Did I tell you the story of the sociology grad student who was doing some
research on Forboldn? He was spending a few months with groat shepherds
out in the mountains studying how they handled various problems and how
their colonial society was developing. The Forboldner shepherds were
ordinarily men. The women stayed in the villages taking care of gardening
and managing various businesses, while the men followed the groats around
the mountains as the groats moved from pasture to pasture.
The Forboldners didn't have much in the way of grav vehicles, and the
shepherds had less than most, so the shepherds tended to use some of the
groats to carry supplies. Some women from the village would meet their
husbands every couple of months with more supplies at predetermined
points. In the winter, they would herd the groats back to the major town
for shearing, slaughtering, and wintering, as appropriate.
The grad student was a young straight man, and after a few months of
seeing no one but groat shepherds and groats, he was beginning to miss
female companionship. Their path, he knew, would not take them near any
towns that might offer professional companionship for several months.
Adopting his best grad-student-doing-research tone, he asked some of the
shepherds what they typically did in this situation. Each one told him
solemnly that there was nothing wrong with abusing a groat, that they did
it themselves, and no one would say anything about it. After a few more
lonely nights, the graduate student finally availed himself of a groat.
When he returned to the camp, the shepherds were pretty drunk and laughing
uproariously about him. "What is it?" asked the graduate student, a
little petulantly. "I thought you said there was nothing wrong with it."
"Well," answered one old shepherd, "there's not, but nobody told you to go
with the ugly one!"
- --Glenn
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------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:16:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: boarding actions
In mail you write:
> It was my understanding in HG2 that before ships went into combat they
> depressurized. this way if the hull was breached people would not get blown
> into space. It seems that to me tending wounded underthis circumstance would
> be little more than patching breached vacc suits.
I suspect the medical typoes would be in a "pressure tent" of some
sort. Someplace that maintains its own pressure, but where there's
enough room to get a few casualties out of their suits.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:28:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hull jump grids
In mail you write:
> ...
>> What is the TML concensus on MT's hull jump grid? Is it a best
> avoided
>>gaffe like the jump fuel ruling, or is it pretty much accepted?
>
> Oh, for ghod's sake, please have the courtesy to yell "fire in the
> hole" or something equally helpful before sending a post like this!
>
> <CT/> It's a gaffe, with no basis in _real_ Trav </CT> :)
Check again. There's a CT supplement that shows a ship with an external
"net" to enclose ships or cargo so they can be hauled thru jump.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:20:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: How a Densitometer Works
In mail you write:
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>>
>>> How does a densitometer works.
>>>
>>> It's sending out a signal that penetrates stuff, but rebounds to a
>>> signal reader, right?
>>
>> Nope. It's obviously a much improved version of Dr. Forward's Mass
>> Detector. It measures gravity, and from the gravity versus position
>> info it gets (either as it is moved, or as it moves sensors internally)
>> it can determine how much matter is where out to the limit of its range.
>>
>> "Matter distribution" = "density profile".
>>
>> Completely *passive* detector.
>
> Okey doke. But does its detection range stop at the first
> really dense thing? Could it detect an empty pocket in a block
> of granite if it could only examine one side?
Should be able to. Real world mass detectors are used to detect pockets
of oil and gas deep in rock formations.
> I can see how it might, if it were sensitive to 'range' through the
> entire block, but surely there is some limit to its ability. I'm interested
> in where that might reasonably be.
There are several factors I can think of.
1. how fine a density difference can it detect. I.E. 1 g/cc? .1 g/cc?
2. how well can it resolve things. That is, can it tell an alternating
pattern of low density and high density from a block of the same
*average* density. Resolution is how big the "cells" have to be
before they can be spotted.
3. A combo of the above. How fast does the density have to change befor
it sows up as a boundary rather than just blending into the
surrounding material.
4. range. How far away can it detect anything, and how does range affect
1 thru 3?
I expect that only some of this is covered in canon.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:45:11 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
DaveShayne wrote:
> > I reverse engineered the CT 200 ton trader to get the 200 ton Tanker...
I already have a design for my own universe, based on GURPS Traveller
module construction rules.
10000 dton TL10 unstreamlined hull.
DR 100
20 staterooms (ie crew quarters etc)
command bridge & basic backup bridge
engineering
Jump-2 drive
sickbay
utility modules (artificial gravity etc)
0.1G thrusters
Cost: 1178 MCr (4.9 MCr/month)
In addition to its own return fuel requirements (for 2+2 parsecs), it
can carry somewhat over 5500 tons of fuel with which to replenish a
depot's tanks.
Rough balance sheet:
Salaries 120 kCr
Life support 120 kCr
Loan payment 4900 kCr
Maintenance 100 kCr
- ---
Expenses: 5240 kCr
Now, this ship should be able to make a round trip in 18 days,
allowing for maneuvering, maintenance, and some dead time. So it can
supply a deep space depot with 9300 tons of fuel per month.
Including the cost of its own jump fuel (at inflated OTU prices), that
adds 690 Cr/ton to the cost of fuel in deep space. Going to larger
ships is pointless, as the expenses are dominated by the loan, which
is in turn dominated by the size of jump engines required which in
turn is linear with the size of the ship.
Fitting the ship with jump-1 engines does reduce its cost a lot, but
the additional turnaround time and consequent lack of revenue makes
the overall cost increase not worth it. Likewise, a jump-3 depot
means that tankers use up too much fuel just making the trip. The
cheapest per-parsec cost is with jump-2, unless the depot *has* to be
exactly 3 parsecs away.
Now, the interesting thing is that the base cost of fuel should be
*much* lower -- around the 30 Cr/ton level for refined fuel. This
includes mining, refining, cost of capital, staffing, in-system
transport, handling, facility maintenance, and a generous allowance
for bureaucratic and miscellaneous expenses. Cheaper if there's a
handy gas giant or water-bearing world in the system rather than just
outsystem iceballs.
This just points out that insystem ships are incredibly cheap compared
with starships. The costs of interstellar trade are completely
dominated by the amortization cost of jump drives and the huge LH2
fuel tanks they require. By comparison, insystem trade is almost
free.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:51:26 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
>
>> I might even go
>> farther and say that although individuals can sue a
>Megacorp, the usual
>> Megacorp response is to use every legal means to defend themselves.
Several hundred dtons of lawyers?
>
>Where could an individual sue an MC? What Court? An Imperium Court
>I assume? What is the legal basis of it's foundation? Are
>Imperial agencies
>subject to the jurisdiction as well, i.e., could an Imperial
>citizen sue the
>Imperium or an Imperial agency (which will necessarily include nobles)
>in an Imperial court?
As there is no higher court they'd have to. IRL can't Americans sue Federal
agencies?
>
>
>> What
>> this means is that no individual could survive the 25 to 75
>year long trial
>> that would result from a Megacorp lawsuit.
>
>Why would it take that long? And we have Anagathics. And the heirs
>of the injured individual have an interest too.
The bigger problem would surely be the legal bills :)
>
>> That's why the typical Civil
>> Contract Court case is between Corporations and can last
>generations. 3I
>> corporations (unlike U.S. companies) take the long view, and
>will remain in
>> court as long as they might possibly win.
>
>Well, it isn't up to them. It's up to the lawmaker (Emperor?) that
>creates the courts and laws the courts enforce. If the court
>system allows
>a case to be dragged out, then so be it. But there are all
>kinds of ways
>to speed things up. Limiting the time and possible scope for appeals
>of right is a real easy way. Where you have nobles that get
>involved in
>a court system, it becomes very likely, IMHO, that appeals of any
>court decision will only be possible when permission is granted from
>the relevant noble authority.
Would the Emperor actual make all the law himself? Seems like a big job and
one he'd likely delegate. Presumably the Archdukes are in charge of Domain
courts and have powers to set their own laws (with the Emperor holding veto,
natch), otherwise 1. The Imperial legal system becomes monolithic and
wouldn't work and 2. What's the point of being an Archduke if you can't make
laws? Since being a domain Archduke is also a massive job in and of itself
the Archdukes probably have a legal staff of their own that actually oversee
the technical aspects of legislation, based upon the lower-level (in
computer programming terms) input from the Archduke. Of course, an Archdukes
legal staff is made up of lawyers, and the'd probably not streamline the
legal process as you suggest because it goes against their nature :)
Agree about appeals.
>
>Another potential problem: Canonically, the Emperor owns a 2% stake
>in all the MCs and LICs. So, the Imperium itself has an
>interest in one
>of the litigants. That's a pretty clear bias and would make the courts
>a complete joke.
>
Take a look at real-world legal systems. Of course, conflict of interest
isn't a problem in inter-corp litigation, because the Emperor has interests
in both sides.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:59:26 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: HELP!!!
Don Roberts wrote:
> About two or three weeks ago I followed a link from someone's
> Traveller web page and found a comic strip that was being
> continually updated. It was very funny but I can't seem to remember
> the name of it. It had this funny little blue guy and his robot
> friend as well as a female vargr-like creature.
That would almost certainly be "Freefall", index at
http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ffdex.htm
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:57:07 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: HELP!!!
Sounds like Freefall.
Black and white here: http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/
Colour here: http://freefall.purrsia.com/~color/index.html
Dean
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Don Roberts [mailto:tne1201@yahoo.com]
>Sent: 14 February 2001 05:01
>To: traveller@lists.ient.com
>Subject: RE:HELP!!!
>
>
>HELP!!
>I have been searching and searching. About two or
>three weeks ago I followed a link from someone's
>Traveller web page and found a comic strip that was
>being continually updated. It was very funny but I
>can't seem to remember the name of it. It had this
>funny little blue guy and his robot friend as well as
>a female vargr-like creature. I can't remember how I
>got to it and stupidly did not bookmark it. If anyone
>knows what I am talking about and can tell me how to
>find this on the web I would be eternally grateful.
>Thanks
>
>
>__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 06:18:12 EST
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:29:29 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> The ship that is doing the skimming is the tanker itself.
This is a very poor use of time; and for starships more than anything
else, time is money. In economic terms, a starship is just a big
expensive jump drive with a few minor peripherals. Every second not
in jump is a second in which you are paying a lot for something you
aren't using.
You could buy 5 fuel skimmers with fuel processors and a space station
with big tanks out at the 100D limit of a gas giant for pocket change,
compared with the cost of a fuel tanker starship. That way, you don't
waste time taking a very expensive jump drive in from the 100D limit,
skimming fuel, and getting it back to the 100D limit. You have the
fuel already there waiting for your ship when it arrives.
It also means you don't need to streamline your tanker, or give it a
powerful maneuver drive -- this means you aren't paying for about
20-30% of jump volume that doesn't hold fuel.
> I assumed that the cost of refining the fuel is no
> more than the difference between refined and unrefined fuel.
According to the cost, crew requirements and maintenance of ship
mounted fuel processors (and assuming there aren't any economies of
scale for bigger ones), fuel refining costs less than 1 credit per
ton. *Someone's* making a lot of money somewhere ...
> If you use the CT rules strictly as written, Jump 2 ships cannot
>survive *unless* they use speculative trading. The meat and potatoes
>aspect of simply shipping and carrying passengers is not possible.
I came to the same conclusion. Ships have to have an amortization
lifetime of over 100 years to make it feasible under CT. GT:FT is
better in this regard; the costs of running a starship actually work
out quite consistently with freight charges.
> Build large hulled ships and jump them to the deep space location.
> Remove the jump drives and jump in with the tanker plus a
> salvage/construction crew.
Better to jump in with prefab parts (or materials, depending on tech
level) and build the station from those. By far the biggest cost of
building a station in deep space will be the cost of transport, and
costs go with volume not mass. You only want enough living space and
equipment for the construction crews, some collapsible fuel bladders
and pumps to accept more fuel.
But if you really are in a hurry, cannabalisation could work. Just
don't forget to very carefully remove the jump drive and re-use it.
Though it might be only 2-5% of the volume of the ship, it would
usually be about 50-70% of the overall cost -- not something to leave
on a station that isn't going to jump anywhere.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:36:48 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Re : Population stuff
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> The key here would be "how much energy"? Specifically, could you
> get those energy levels in the output of the M class star?
Sure -- ther are a number of biologically plausible reactions that
operate under IR light. Less efficiently then chlorophyll I must
admit, but (if light arose in the first place) natural selection would
improve efficiency.
> Based on an astrophysic's professor's web site (I sure hope I can find it
> again!), there is a formula for calculating the peak output of a star.
The formula is extremely simple, actually, if you know the
temperature. The peak output energy is linear with surface
temperature. If the star is half as hot, the peak in the spectrum
will be at about half the energy (twice the wavelength).
> 1) the presumption is that the environment is a cold one. As such,
> chemical reactions would be somewhat sluggish right?
Presumption by whom? A planet orbiting an M-type star could be just
as hot or hotter than Earth, depending upon how far from the star it
was. Give it a reasonably elliptical orbit and/or a resonance with
another planet and it needn't even be tide-locked.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:08:03 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Land Grab ideas
Dean:
>> I'm not sure how to create a hex-grid over the icosahedral
>> projection...do you know?
>Peter:
>Okay, you caught me. This feature does not yet exist in FT so I
>cheated: I used Paint Shop Pro to merge the output of FT with a
>blank hex-grid. :-P
>
:) Ahhh, I thought I was being slow...My alternative was to export a climate
map to CC2 and overlay a hexgrid there. Sadly you end up with a flat
projection, since you can't export CC2 to icosahedral.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:11:25 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Re : Population stuff
Timothy Little wrote:
> admit, but (if light arose in the first place) natural selection would
Oops, ^^^^^
..."let there be life!"
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:49:31 +0200
From: Antti Lahtinen <lahtinen@ee.tut.fi>
Subject: Re: Mines, yours, and ours
Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> ... take sharp stick, go prone, and carefully slide the stick into the
> dirt, feeling for obstuctions. If there are none. you move 6" over and
> do it again.
Hey, that sounds familiar. Back in '91 I saw anti-guerilla
jaeger teams doing that a lot when they were chasing us (I was
in a guerilla training unit). We used a mixture of toe-poppers,
tubemines (small and nasty fragment mine) and PAVA's (perimeter
alarm, a flash-bang device which fires an illumination charge
high in the air) to keep them occupied while we ran away.
Mixing real mines with fakes was also quite effective since it
is difficult to determine whether the mine is fake or just very
difficult to disarm. Different real/fake and double-mine/multi-
trigger/fake-trigger combinations can make the disarm process
very time-consuming, especially if the chase team has to move
quietly.
Modern guerilla troopers have slightly better equipment than
we used to have. These include directional fragment munitions,
suppressed assault rifles, IR camo suits and TRG-42 sniper
rifles.
<sarcasm>
One major change in modern guerilla training is that new grunts
do not use "mines". The are using "light attack munitions".
These LAM's are exactly similar as old mines, but they are _not_
mines, they are _munitions_. Mines are now banned, or something.
</sarcasm>
- --
Antti Lahtinen lahtinen@ee.tut.fi
Researcher, MSc (Eng) http://www.ee.tut.fi/~lahtinen
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:07:00 -0600
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3662
Tod Glenn postede:
> Subject: Re: Landmine clearing...
>
> on 2/12/01 2:41 PM, Daniel Phelps at phelpsd@gate.net wrote:
>
> > Regards mine clearing I seem to remember a rocket based system
> > which created a ground hugging vapor cloud/air fuel mixture
> > which was then detonated. The intent was to create an
> > instantaous pressure wave over a large area and pop the mines
> > by over pressure. Does anyone recall the system, think it was
> > called/abrivated "SLUFAY" or something close. It was supposed
> > to be good against bunkers as well.
> >
> > Dan
> >
> >
>
> Maybe you're thinking of APOBS
>
> http://mcdweb.pica.army.mil/apobs.html
>
> Tod
According to the site:
"APOBS provides several major advantages over today's
fielded
Bangalore Torpedo when used for breaching a similar 45
meter
path."
I gotta ask. How did the Bangalore Torpedo get its name? I
understand the "torpedo" part but not "Bangalore".
David
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:10:42 -0600
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net>
Subject: RE:HELP!!!
Don Roberts posted:
>
> HELP!!
> I have been searching and searching. About two or
> three weeks ago I followed a link from someone's
> Traveller web page and found a comic strip that was
> being continually updated. It was very funny but I
> can't seem to remember the name of it. It had this
> funny little blue guy and his robot friend as well as
> a female vargr-like creature. I can't remember how I
> got to it and stupidly did not bookmark it. If anyone
> knows what I am talking about and can tell me how to
> find this on the web I would be eternally grateful.
> Thanks
It's called "Freefall" and is truly the closest thing to
an online Traveller comic I've ever seen. The artist really
has heard of Traveller and had a friend who played it.
The site is:
http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ffdex.htm
David
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:25:48 -0000
From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
Subject: Civility and Politeness.
Just a quick question - how long does one have to be a member of/subscriber
to the TML before it is considered polite to refer to others by their given
names? And what other factors affect the timescale?
I mean, Mr. Whipsnade is still calling people Mr or Ms (or whatever other
honorific is appropriate) despite several posts that are - IMnot-soHO - both
thought-provoking and inciteful, whereas certain other people (who should
remain nameless but I probably won't) seem to have set themselves dismally
low standards and consistently failed to achieve them, with respect to (wrt)
actually contributing anything really useful to most people.
Oh, and I'd also like to know exactly how 'we' stand with wrt 'dry' keyboard
kills; I *always* make sure I am 'coffee-less' before reading the TML...
Jeff
(who, on the basis of previous posts, should probably be grovelling for the
next few years...)
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:36:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE:HELP!!!
Don Roberts writes:
>HELP!!
>I have been searching and searching. About two or
>three weeks ago I followed a link from someone's
>Traveller web page and found a comic strip that was
>being continually updated. It was very funny but I
>can't seem to remember the name of it. It had this
>funny little blue guy and his robot friend as well as
>a female vargr-like creature. I can't remember how I
>got to it and stupidly did not bookmark it. If anyone
>knows what I am talking about and can tell me how to
>find this on the web I would be eternally grateful.
>Thanks
It sounds like "Freefall", a comic that has a new
strip each Monday, Wednesday and Friday. You
can find it at
http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ffdex.htm
Peez
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3664
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3665
Date: | 2/14/01 8:28:13 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 14 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3665
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Hull jump grids
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Hull jump grids
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3662
RE: Looking For...
RE: Forboldn
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: boarding actions
RE: boarding actions
Re: boarding actions
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3662
RE:HELP!!!
RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Deep Space Jumps
[TML] The Rule of Man Tech Debate [FILK]
RE: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Civility and Politeness.
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:41:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Hull jump grids
Larsen E. Whipsnade writes:
>Gentlemen,
>What is the TML concensus on MT's hull jump grid? Is it a best avoided
>gaffe like the jump fuel ruling, or is it pretty much accepted?
>Can't wait to here everyone's thoughts!
>Thanks in advance.
I don't know anything useful about MT, but I don't personally like
hull jump grids. IMTU, the jump drive sits in the engineering
section and does its thing at the outset of jump. Thereafter, it
just sits there and enjoys the ride like everything else. There are
no nasty effects of jumpspace to keep out, no grid to worry about,
and no potential for jump drive failure during jump. Just MTU.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 04:48:52 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
hal@buffnet.net wrote
> A purpose built tanker on a 200 ton hull would use 30 tons of fuel, or
> 60 tons two ways.
> 200 ton hull with Standard A drives across the board:
> Total Cost: 32.85 MCr
> Dividing the 163,613 by 184, we find that the tanker needs to make 890
> credits per ton to break even! At 1,000 credits per ton, the ship is
> making roughtly 12% profit.
What about your return on the Cr 6,570,000 you used as a down
payment on this ship. If you had taken this MCr 6.57 and invested
it in the bond or stock market instead of buying a ship you would
be earning money on that too. You can't figure the true cost of
a ship until you consider what other uses you could have made
of the money.
To determine this you need to look at the real (after inflation
or deflation, if present) rate of return on investments in the
Third Imperium.
Annual
Rate of Return Monthly Return
% CR
0.0 0
1.0 5,475
1.5 8,213
2 10,950
2.5 13,687
3.0 16,425
Therefore depending on your estimate of the long term rate of return
achieved in imperial markets your ship (and any other ship) must
return several thousand more credits a month, the opportunity cost
of its down payment. If the Imperial rate of return is 2% per year
(lower than you can get these days but the late 3rd Imperium is a
fairly static society) than each of those 184 tons of fuel moved
per month should cost an extra CR 60 per ton (10,950/184).
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 00:54:58 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Hull jump grids
Ian Ferguson wrote:
> IMTU, the jump drive sits in the engineering section and does its
> thing at the outset of jump. Thereafter, it just sits there and
> enjoys the ride like everything else. There are no nasty effects of
> jumpspace to keep out, no grid to worry about, and no potential for
> jump drive failure during jump. Just MTU.
I like that type of jump drive too. However, mine also activates at
every jumpspace cell boundary (i.e. "hex map edge") while in jump, so
there are a couple of extra possible points of failure. However,
these are invisible to the crew since they take no perceptible time --
from their point of view they all happen at the midpoint of the trip
and are over in microseconds.
... and (IMTU), the most likely failure mode results in the ship and
contents rebounding from the domain wall and exactly retracing their
path through jumpspace and time back to the entry point. From the
point of view of anyone on board the ship (or any instruments), they
never even got into jumpspace and have no memory of any of the events
that have transpired therein (or should that be Dr Streetmentioner's
"wioll haven be" transpired). It's a dead-end fork in their timeline.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 06:45:03 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3662
on 2/14/01 5:07 AM, D. Smart at dsmart@imagin.net wrote:
> Tod Glenn postede:
>> Subject: Re: Landmine clearing...
>>
>> on 2/12/01 2:41 PM, Daniel Phelps at phelpsd@gate.net wrote:
>>
>>> Regards mine clearing I seem to remember a rocket based system
>>> which created a ground hugging vapor cloud/air fuel mixture
>>> which was then detonated. The intent was to create an
>>> instantaous pressure wave over a large area and pop the mines
>>> by over pressure. Does anyone recall the system, think it was
>>> called/abrivated "SLUFAY" or something close. It was supposed
>>> to be good against bunkers as well.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Maybe you're thinking of APOBS
>>
>> http://mcdweb.pica.army.mil/apobs.html
>>
>> Tod
>
> According to the site:
>
> "APOBS provides several major advantages over today's
> fielded
> Bangalore Torpedo when used for breaching a similar 45
> meter
> path."
>
> I gotta ask. How did the Bangalore Torpedo get its name? I
> understand the "torpedo" part but not "Bangalore".
>
> David
>
After Bangalore, India. But I never found out why. Anyone else?
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:54:00 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Looking For...
>Of course not! Had it been an AuricTech design, the computer code (at
>TTL-9) would be "C", indicating a Model 3 computer with fiber-optic
>backup (the most powerful computer available at TTL-9). Milspec
>computers are just too useful not to use. Milspec computers
>help a ship
>survive combat. Milspec computers are our friends. Milspec computers
>cost _much_ more than civilian-grade machines!
>
>--
AuricTech software is all coded in C?!? :)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:03:39 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Forboldn
>>From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net>
>
>>SSSPLOOOORT!
>>
>>daNG i!, Glllennnn!
>>
>>noW hoW am i goMngg to ge! halllf chwed roast bef oU! of M^
>>ke^board?
>>
>>daaavvid
>
>It sounds like getting it out of your nose may be your first
>priority.
>
>Did I tell you the story of the sociology grad student who was
>doing some
>research on Forboldn?
What do you call a Groat tethered to a post on Forboln?
The leisure centre.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:13:34 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
>From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
"Just a quick question - how long does one have to be a member
of/subscriber to the TML before it is considered polite to refer to others
by their given names?"
Mr. Rowse,
If I may hazard a guess in this situation, the polite form of address
shold be used until the addressee invites the addesser to use a more
familiar one.
Hence, the happy members of the Bay Area group, Ms. Morgan, Mr. Berry,
Mr. Schwartz, et. al.,who have all met one another socially, use more
familiar terms when addressing each another.
Ms. Morgan's musings that I am simply following the standards of
politeness found outside the US are correct. In my career, I have worked
with many people from widely varying cultures. Sometimes, I have been a
bearer of bad news, or have had to correct their precepts or opinions, or
other such "ticklish" duties. I have found that sincere politeness,
combined with empathy, a firm handshake, and a shoeshine, all go a long way
towards smoothing over any potential problems.
This facet of my work life as spilled over into my personal life and I
have not found it to be a hindrance at all. Quite the opposite in fact.
Because I treat those around me politeness, it is almost always
reciprocated. This phenomena even extends to store clerks and others in the
service industry. I have seem to have far fewer problems moving through the
world than my friends do.
Please be sure, I am not some patsie or push over because I am polite.
I will insist on correct service from clerks for instance, but I will do so
with civility.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:21:36 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
Hello Everyone:
There is of course option C.
This is where as a last resort you place a small embedded computer into the
jump drive. This computer must be given a special passcode or nasty things
happen.
Imagine that the enemy has just captured your ship and you have taken a long
trip (sans space suit) off of a short cargo bay ramp into deep space (ie your
dead!). The enemy (boarders, pirates etc) do some minor repair and then fire up
the jump engine to get out of there. Only the embedded computer did not receive
its commands. The computer causes an automatic misjump of the worst kind, ie
right into a star. The result will be either the engineer make an impossible
saving throw or "POP GOES THWE STAR SHIP!"
Then again there is always option D
"GEE, This big read button says music, wonder what type they liked....BOOM"
John W. Fox
> In-Reply-To: <200102132103.NAA23734@mainsheet.verity.com>
> Greetings dear hearts.
>
> John Fox said " Of course you could always rewire the engine to go
> critical as a last ditch effort to take as many with you as possiblke (if
> you were going to loose)"
>
> Aaargh. Remember I was telling you about my nutty engineer Sandor McGann?
> While back we found a ship floating dead in space. Went aboard to have a
> look... and guess what the power plant started to do? Oh, and all the
> external hatches locked down. And the coil stabiliers and compensation
> systems went off line...
>
> Well. She didn't blow up. At least not until I'd managed to shut
> everything down so it was like a 'pop' and a few bent bulkheads rather
> than a lot of radioactive vapour.
>
> Sandor spent some time in the hands of the medics recovering from
> radiation sickness. Sandor does not like medics :-)
>
> You really don't want to know what's happened to my LRP character, TechSgt
> Mexal...
>
> Hugs and kisses,
>
> Mexal.
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:22:50 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: boarding actions
>Hello Everyone:
> There is of course option C.
> This is where as a last resort you place a small embedded
>computer into the
>jump drive. This computer must be given a special passcode or
>nasty things
>happen.
> Imagine that the enemy has just captured your ship and you
>have taken a long
>trip (sans space suit) off of a short cargo bay ramp into deep
>space (ie your
>dead!). The enemy (boarders, pirates etc) do some minor repair
>and then fire up
>the jump engine to get out of there. Only the embedded
>computer did not receive
>its commands. The computer causes an automatic misjump of the
>worst kind, ie
>right into a star. The result will be either the engineer make
>an impossible
>saving throw or "POP GOES THWE STAR SHIP!"
> Then again there is always option D
> "GEE, This big read button says music, wonder what type they
>liked....BOOM"
>
Jones's Law 1: Don't press the big red button.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:24:46 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
"Amputations are a little more complex than just cutting off the
damaged bit. You need to form a flap to close the cut end of the limb off.
The steam jet may not be as easy to control as a Gigli saw. The steam would
certainly sterilise the raw end (among other things), but
the technique would seem to have little or no advantage over traditional
tools in skilled hands in theatre conditions."
Mr. O'Connor,
I most certainly agree with you, sir.
The story told me all those years ago by my instructors was probably
done so with an eye towards frightening impressionable trainees into taking
high pressure steam leaks seriously, than as a plausible medical technique.
As for me, all it took was one look at the retired bioler technician's
right hand.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:50:48 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3662
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
"After Bangalore, India. But I never found out why. Anyone else?"
Mr. Glenn,
I have read that the device was first developed and tested at a British
Raj arsenal in that Indian city.
Of course, that story could be apochryphal.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 07:51:55 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
Subject: RE:HELP!!!
Don:
There are two comic strips out there that are funny (that I know of)
1) Freefall
http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ffdex.htm
2) Schlock Mercenary
http://www.schlockmercenary.com
John W. Fox
>
> HELP!!
> I have been searching and searching. About two or
> three weeks ago I followed a link from someone's
> Traveller web page and found a comic strip that was
> being continually updated. It was very funny but I
> can't seem to remember the name of it. It had this
> funny little blue guy and his robot friend as well as
> a female vargr-like creature. I can't remember how I
> got to it and stupidly did not bookmark it. If anyone
> knows what I am talking about and can tell me how to
> find this on the web I would be eternally grateful.
> Thanks
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
> a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:56:51 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter
Mr Atkins,
I'm looking forward to Modular Cutter..I like 'em too. I just didn't react
:)
Mr Whipsnade,
Modular Cutter and the Mod. cutter deckplans are on the SJG shipping slate
for Feb. Typically SJG Ship in the middle 2 weeks of the month ( in my
experience usually between the 9th and the 20th) so your FLGS should have on
in about a fortnight.
regards,
Dean 'Spies? Nonsense!' Jones :)
>"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> The Modular Cutter book, sir, is one I cannot wait to see! I've
>always
>> had a soft spot in my heart for those multi-purpose, 50dTon, little
>rascals.
>> Could you let us know when it's due out? Please?
>
>Well I'm glad you're looking forward to it - reactions to the
>title on this
>mailing list have been mixed. I'm certainly proud of it, and
>think its a
>good book. But I think we can safely say I'm slightly biased.
>I hope you
>(and others) enjoy it.
>
>As far as its release date is concerned, I can't say - that's
>a question
>better suited for Loren or someone at SJG. I believe the text
>is getting
>finishing touches at the printers - if true, it could be RSN (real soon
>now). On the SJG website, it is listed as being "at the
>printers". But to be
>honest, I'm not in that loop, so I couldn't say for sure.
>
>Andy Akins
>co-author, GURPS Traveller:Modular Cutter
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:02:36 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
If you call me "Mr", I'll look behind me to see who
you're talking to. Unless you do it in the style of a
James Bond Arch-Villian.
"Before I kill you Meester Bloo...."
That sort of thing is ok. Anything else is just style IMHO.
People who use "Mr" just want to be formal. This is
a mail list about a game. Actually, the TML is a game all
its own and we are all playing it together.
:-P
Bloo
Jeff Rowse wrote:
> Just a quick question - how long does one have to be a member of/subscriber
> to the TML before it is considered polite to refer to others by their given
> names? And what other factors affect the timescale?
> I mean, Mr. Whipsnade is still calling people Mr or Ms (or whatever other
> honorific is appropriate) despite several posts that are - IMnot-soHO - both
> thought-provoking and inciteful, whereas certain other people (who should
> remain nameless but I probably won't) seem to have set themselves dismally
> low standards and consistently failed to achieve them, with respect to (wrt)
> actually contributing anything really useful to most people.
>
> Oh, and I'd also like to know exactly how 'we' stand with wrt 'dry' keyboard
> kills; I *always* make sure I am 'coffee-less' before reading the TML...
>
> Jeff
> (who, on the basis of previous posts, should probably be grovelling for the
> next few years...)
> _________________________________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:03:25 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
From: hal@buffnet.net
"All things considered?"
"Build large hulled ships and jump them to the deep space location. Remove
the jump drives and jump in with the tanker plus a salvage/construction
crew. They remove what is needed..."
Hal,
I've always leaned towards a more modular and lean method. Building a
ship, simply to jump it once, then cannabilzing it upon arrival seems to be
too much work. And too much money!
Instead, how about ferrying several modules (like those belonging to
the 50 dT cutter) out to the site, along with the loose parts and
incidentals you'll need, and putting your station together like a "tinker
toy"?
I also do not envision large stations offering much in the way of
amenities to anyone but their crews. So no DS9's. I'd think a bare bones
fuel and navigational station, with some SAR assets and life support spares
would keep the cost down.
The possibility to lease research space to interested corporations and
colleges might arise too.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:01:53 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: [TML] The Rule of Man Tech Debate [FILK]
We're all familiar with the controversey raised by Emperor's Arsenal, in
which the Rule of Man is suggested as having a TL of 13 or even 14 or
higher. Well, just to lay all those concerns to rest, Ah thought Ah'd sing
a sawng....
T-L-THIRTEEN IN THE R.O.M.
==========================
(from: ROCK in the USA by John Mellencamp, or J. C. Mellencamp, or John
Cougar Mellencamp, or John Mellencamp... some guy with the first name of
'John,' last name of 'Mellencamp,' and middle name of a large North
American pouncer)
They came from out Rimward
And they came from a small planet
Big ol' ships with missiles and guns
Goin crack boom bam
<chorus>
T-L-Thirteen in the R.o.M.
T-L-Thirteen in the R.o.M.
T-L-Thirteen in the R.o.M., Yeah, Yeah!
Science in the R.o.M.!
Said goodbye to their families
Said goodbye to their friends
With jump drives on their ships
(Three parsecs a week was helluva hit)
Those Terrans, they sure were bright
But weren't able to hold off the Long Night
With no flawed jump drive theory, what wonders they did bring, with
Science in the R.o.M.!
Hey!
They came outta nowhere
HOW many Interstellar Wars?
Filled our ships full of holes
Turned Vilan upside down
There was micro-miniature-portable fusion power
(They brought Science)
Wasn't J5 found at TL 14?
(They brought Science)
Show us those laser rifles
Let's don't forget Rob Meson!
Science in the R.o.M.
Science in the R.o.M.
Hey!
- -30-
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:08:08 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
>
>If you call me "Mr", I'll look behind me to see who
>you're talking to. Unless you do it in the style of a
>James Bond Arch-Villian.
>
>"Before I kill you Meester Bloo...."
>
>That sort of thing is ok. Anything else is just style IMHO.
>People who use "Mr" just want to be formal. This is
>a mail list about a game. Actually, the TML is a game all
>its own and we are all playing it together.
>
>:-P
Now I feel silly for calling Andy and Bill 'Mr. Atkins' and 'Mr. Whipsnade'
in my last post :)
>
>Jeff Rowse wrote:
>
>> Just a quick question - how long does one have to be a
>member of/subscriber
>> to the TML before it is considered polite to refer to others
>by their given
>> names?
Just until you feel relaxed, I think.
And what other factors affect the timescale?
>> I mean, Mr. Whipsnade is still calling people Mr or Ms (or
>whatever other
>> honorific is appropriate) despite several posts that are -
>IMnot-soHO - both
>> thought-provoking and inciteful, whereas certain other
>people (who should
>> remain nameless but I probably won't) seem to have set
>themselves dismally
>> low standards and consistently failed to achieve them, with
>respect to (wrt)
>> actually contributing anything really useful to most people.
I tend to find your posts more pertinent than my own, in general.
>>
>> Oh, and I'd also like to know exactly how 'we' stand with
>wrt 'dry' keyboard
>> kills; I *always* make sure I am 'coffee-less' before
>reading the TML...
Yeah...my funny posts keep missing peoples coffee, too. C'est le guerre.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:13:51 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
"Deep space caches are a militarily usefull ploy that doesn't seem
to work for civilians."
Mr. Shayne,
While I agree with you in general, I also believe there will be very
special circumstances in which a government/corporation partnership will
build and operate one.
Perhaps a world, seperated from a main or jump-2 trade route, would
subsidize a depot to encourage more indepedent shippers to visit. With what
has been wriiten about the Imperium's megacorps, I think allowing them to
control ALL of your off world commerce would be a very bad thing.
I also don't see the need for the depot's operating agency to build anf
field tankers. A sufficiently large world, which would have the trde
potential to require the depot, would also have a navy. Even a strict
non-jump SDB fleet would have insystem tankers and refining assets. The
depot's operating agency could simply by fuel at cost (the local gov't is a
partner) and ship it to their depot.
GT:Starports says that the Imperium operates most of it's starports at
a loss, so why couldn't a local government do the same with a depot?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:07:31
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
At 01:25 PM 2/14/2001 -0000, you wrote:
>Just a quick question - how long does one have to be a member of/subscriber
>to the TML before it is considered polite to refer to others by their given
>names? And what other factors affect the timescale?
People call me Mr. Berry, and I start to think I'm at the doctor's office.
Doug, Douglas, Penguin Boy, You Keyboard Destroying Maniac.. all are good
with me.
- --
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,
in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:16:16
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
At 09:04 PM 2/14/2001 +1300, you wrote:
>Douglas E. Berry wrote :
>> Why apologize? After all, I *am* married to Kiri. :)
>
>OK, go on, spill it.
>
>I disctinctly remember you mentioning a "Kirsten" at some point.
>Or is bigamy acceptable over there now ?
Hm. How to explain the dynamics of a polyamorous marriage, in which both
partners are bisexual to some extent, without taking up several Digests
with consent forms, charts, and several cool PowerPoint transparencies..
Well, to make a long story shirt, I am married to Kirsten. Who, for a very
long time, has used "Kiri" as a nickname. I fell into using it because
when we first got together, her 2yo half sister couldn't pronounce Kirsten,
and settled for Kiri. (This is the same reason why I am know as Uncle Duck
to many children.)
Then we meet Kiri. They are now, to the SF group, Kiri-chan and Other Kiri.
- --
Duugirashir Irebamenagiin gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3665
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3666
Date: | 2/14/01 10:04:06 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 14 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3666
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter)
RE: Civility and Politeness.
RE: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modul ar Cutter)
Shrieker Scan needed
RE: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter)
RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter
Re: [TML] Civility and Politeness.
RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter
RE: Civility and Politeness.
RE: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
Re: Population stuff
Legal issues with megacorps
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: boarding actions
Re: Forboldn (was re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR)
Re: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter)
Re: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
provenance of "Bangalore Torpedo"
Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
Re: Forboldn (was re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR)
Re: Shrieker Scan needed
Re: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:33:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote:
> That sort of thing is ok. Anything else is just style IMHO.
> People who use "Mr" just want to be formal. This is
> a mail list about a game. Actually, the TML is a game all
> its own and we are all playing it together.
Who's winning?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:42:08 -0800
From: "Thing" <thingunderthestairs@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
On Wednesday, February 14, 2001 8:07 AM
Douglas E. Berry said,
> People call me Mr. Berry, and I start to think I'm at the doctor's office.
> Doug, Douglas, Penguin Boy, You Keyboard Destroying Maniac.. all are good
> with me.
Wouldn't that be Pun-guin Boy?
G.D.D.
ThingUnderTheStairs
Minion of SheChemist and GothBunny
Grand Master of the Electron Flow
===========================
"You can't be real a country unless you have a beer and an airline. It helps
if you have some kind of a football team, or some nuclear weapons, but at
the very least you need a beer." - Frank Zappa
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:41:40 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter)
Since the Cutter book got delayed a bit....
http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_news.htm
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jones, Dean
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 7:57 AM
> To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> Subject: RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter
>
>
>
> Mr Atkins,
>
> I'm looking forward to Modular Cutter..I like 'em too. I just didn't react
> :)
>
> Mr Whipsnade,
>
> Modular Cutter and the Mod. cutter deckplans are on the SJG shipping slate
> for Feb. Typically SJG Ship in the middle 2 weeks of the month ( in my
> experience usually between the 9th and the 20th) so your FLGS
> should have on
> in about a fortnight.
>
> regards,
>
> Dean 'Spies? Nonsense!' Jones :)
>
>
>
> >"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> The Modular Cutter book, sir, is one I cannot wait to see! I've
> >always
> >> had a soft spot in my heart for those multi-purpose, 50dTon, little
> >rascals.
> >> Could you let us know when it's due out? Please?
> >
> >Well I'm glad you're looking forward to it - reactions to the
> >title on this
> >mailing list have been mixed. I'm certainly proud of it, and
> >think its a
> >good book. But I think we can safely say I'm slightly biased.
> >I hope you
> >(and others) enjoy it.
> >
> >As far as its release date is concerned, I can't say - that's
> >a question
> >better suited for Loren or someone at SJG. I believe the text
> >is getting
> >finishing touches at the printers - if true, it could be RSN (real soon
> >now). On the SJG website, it is listed as being "at the
> >printers". But to be
> >honest, I'm not in that loop, so I couldn't say for sure.
> >
> >Andy Akins
> >co-author, GURPS Traveller:Modular Cutter
> >
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:38:45 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
>> People call me Mr. Berry, and I start to think I'm at the
>doctor's office.
>> Doug, Douglas, Penguin Boy, You Keyboard Destroying Maniac..
>all are good
>> with me.
>
>Wouldn't that be Pun-guin Boy?
>
Truely a joke that's Thing-er lickin' good.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:42:56 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modul ar Cutter)
Gorgeous as ever Jesse (and the Assault Cutter's nice too) :)
Is the Orbital Insertion module some kind of Sayat gadget?
Dean
>
>
>Since the Cutter book got delayed a bit....
>http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_news.htm
>
>Jesse
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:45:42 -0600
From: Loren Wiseman <lkw@io.com>
Subject: Shrieker Scan needed
I need someone to scan all illos of the Shriekers from Safari ship and send
them to me ASAP.
Loren Wiseman
Traveller Line Manager/Traveller Guru-in-Residence
Editor, Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society http://jtas.sjgames.com/
SJ Games
lkw@io.com http://www.io.com/~lkw/
(512) 447-7866 VOX
(512) 447-1144 FAX
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:54:23 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter)
LOL!! No, it's actually written by Andy Akins, not Kenji Schwartz :)
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jones, Dean
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 8:43 AM
> To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> Subject: RE: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions +
> Modular Cutter)
>
>
>
> Gorgeous as ever Jesse (and the Assault Cutter's nice too) :)
>
> Is the Orbital Insertion module some kind of Sayat gadget?
>
> Dean
>
> >
> >
> >Since the Cutter book got delayed a bit....
> >http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_news.htm
> >
> >Jesse
> >
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:54:44 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
"Modular Cutter and the Mod. cutter deckplans are on the SJG shipping
slate for Feb. Typically SJG Ship in the middle 2 weeks of the month ( in my
experience usually between the 9th and the 20th) so your FLGS should have on
in about a fortnight."
Mr. Jones,
Thank you for the information. You can be assured my running nose will
be pressed against my FLGS frosty window in anticipation.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:52:29 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Civility and Politeness.
>Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:02:36 -0600
>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
>Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
>"Before I kill you Meester Bloo...."
*looks into the pit over which Bloo is suspended*
"Don't mind the penguins and groats... they haven't been fed. Yet...."
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:55:26 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter
>
>
>From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
> "Modular Cutter and the Mod. cutter deckplans are on the
>SJG shipping
>slate for Feb. Typically SJG Ship in the middle 2 weeks of the
>month ( in my
>experience usually between the 9th and the 20th) so your FLGS
>should have on
>in about a fortnight."
>
>Mr. Jones,
> Thank you for the information. You can be assured my
>running nose will
>be pressed against my FLGS frosty window in anticipation.
>
I'll send someone around to free you when you freeze to the glass. ;)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:04:21 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
"Now I feel silly for calling Andy and Bill 'Mr. Atkins' and 'Mr.
Whipsnade' in my last post :)"
Mr. Jones,
I would be delighted if you referred to me as Bill.
Larsen, oops, Bill
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:04:58 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
>
>
>From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
>
> "Now I feel silly for calling Andy and Bill 'Mr. Atkins' and 'Mr.
>Whipsnade' in my last post :)"
>
>
>Mr. Jones,
> I would be delighted if you referred to me as Bill.
>
Dean.
Dean. :)
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:03:29 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
>on 2/14/01 5:07 AM, D. Smart at dsmart@imagin.net wrote:
>
> > I gotta ask. How did the Bangalore Torpedo get its name? I
> > understand the "torpedo" part but not "Bangalore".
> >
> > David
> >
>After Bangalore, India. But I never found out why. Anyone else?
The Bangalore Torpedo was invented by Captain McClintock of the
Bengal, Bombay and Madras Sappers and Miners in 1912. It took
its name from the region of India where it was developed. The
Bangalore Torpedo was developed to counter the problem posed
by the rise of barbed wire obstacles during the Boer War and the
Russo-Japanese War of 1904. The original torpedo was a 5.5
meter length of pipe filled with 27.2 kg of dynamite. Early in WW II,
it was found to be effective at clearing a path through minefields.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:12:48 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Population stuff
At 08:15 PM 02/14/2001 +1300, you wrote:
>On 13 Feb 2001, at 16:46, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>
>> >No. It makes ones using the photosynthetic reaction we know of
>> >impossible. That doesn't mean that there isn't one that'll work.
>
>> I've asked around about alternative methods of chemistry that achieves the
>> same goal of photosynthesis, and the answer I got was that there weren't
>> any...
>
>Uhmm, I think you'll find that life around deep sea vents ("black smokers")
>is not sustained by photosynthesis (several km under the sea you don't get
>a lot of light or any other EM radiation for that matter) but a process
known
>as chemosynthesis. Unfortunately, I don't know enough to say how it
>works (presumably its some form of chemical reaction), but it is quite
>capable of sustaining life.
The lifeform you seem to be talking of is one that lives off of sulfur. It
also survives in near boiling temperatures, from which it derives its energy.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:28:41 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: Legal issues with megacorps
> >> I might even go
> >> farther and say that although individuals can sue a
> >Megacorp, the usual
> >> Megacorp response is to use every legal means to defend themselves.
>
> Several hundred dtons of lawyers?
>
> >
> >Where could an individual sue an MC? What Court? An Imperium Court
> >I assume? What is the legal basis of it's foundation? Are
> >Imperial agencies
> >subject to the jurisdiction as well, i.e., could an Imperial
> >citizen sue the
> >Imperium or an Imperial agency (which will necessarily include nobles)
> >in an Imperial court?
>
Every system that a corporation does business in would be subject to that
system's judicial jurisdiction, if it functions like the American court
system. And "doing business" has been (to use an extreme example) construed
the presence of a corporation's product in the jurisdiction, regardless of
who brought it there. So if you have an anti-corporate world your chances
of sucess would probably be higher.
>
> As there is no higher court they'd have to. IRL can't Americans sue
Federal
> agencies?
>
Government has "sovereign immunity," which means that without it's consent
it can't be sued. This is waived in many cases to allow suits against
governmental entities of many kinds - at least in the US.
> >
> Would the Emperor actual make all the law himself? Seems like a big job
and
> one he'd likely delegate. Presumably the Archdukes are in charge of Domain
> courts and have powers to set their own laws (with the Emperor holding
veto,
> natch), otherwise 1. The Imperial legal system becomes monolithic and
> wouldn't work and 2. What's the point of being an Archduke if you can't
make
> laws? Since being a domain Archduke is also a massive job in and of itself
> the Archdukes probably have a legal staff of their own that actually
oversee
> the technical aspects of legislation, based upon the lower-level (in
> computer programming terms) input from the Archduke. Of course, an
Archdukes
> legal staff is made up of lawyers, and the'd probably not streamline the
> legal process as you suggest because it goes against their nature :)
>
I imagine Imperial law to be what the Framers of the Constitution envisioned
for American federal law. Only used in disputes that arise between
jurisdictions. I would bet a large portion of Imperial law deals with (a)
choice-of-law rules, to determine which legal system's code applies in a
given controversy; and (b) pre-emption, to determine when "local" law is
supplanted by Imperial. Imperial law would be restricted to cases between
extraplanetary entities, leaving the bulk of cases to planetary courts.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:43:52 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
> People call me Mr. Berry, and I start to think I'm at the doctor's office.
> Doug, Douglas, Penguin Boy, You Keyboard Destroying Maniac.. all are good
> with me.
"They call me MR. Penguin Boy"
- -Doug Berry from "In theCold of the Night"
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:47:36 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
> Then we meet Kiri. They are now, to the SF group, Kiri-chan and Other
Kiri.
> --
>
Understand. My wife is Cheryl, but we have another Cheryl in the gaming
group. They are also both Cheryl G., thus mystically my Cheryl in now
Sparky (it involves the removal of an antler...don't ask) and the other
Cheryl is now Red (and no, she does not have red hair).
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:29:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: boarding actions
In mail you write:
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> "Which means you don't use the steam cycle if the gravity is off."
>
> Mr. Erickson,
> I guess our next design decision would be to insure that the gravitic
> systems operate either off the energy drawn directly from the tokamak or an
> energy storage device. That would give the black gang the gravity they
> needed to restart the steam cycle after an engineering casualty.
A pity most ship designs won't let main "engine" thrust provide
gravity, eh? <eg>
> Trying to come up with some sort of percentage breakdown between the
> power generated directly by the tokamak and that which is generated by the
> steam cycle could be fun too. After a main plant scram, how load would
> engineering have to shed? Dump weapons? Sensors? Thrust? Perhaps a
> mixture of all of them? Sort of similar to SFB's energy alotments each
> turn?
It's been a long time since I looked, but as I recall, you *could*
modify a High Guard style ship data sheet for that kind of thing.
Some of the design systems have this silly idea that the powerplant
needs to be sized so you can run everything at once.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:37:39 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Forboldn (was re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR)
In mail you write:
> Thanks, Mark. Those are both Idaho jokes. They're actually Owyhee County
> jokes. I used to live in Idaho (in oh-so-cosmopolitan Ada County), and we
> told Owyhee County jokes. One way to tell if you live in Owyhee County is
> if, when you're giving directions to your house, you say something like,
> "after the paved road ends ..."
I used to live in Spokane, and I own property up by Priest Lake. And my
only comment is "You had paved roads?!" <g>
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:50:44 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter)
How about a bording cutter (Lamprey type) with the same basic hull design,
but the cockpit mounted dosally and a forward docking/entry hatch with
cutters?
Tod
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 8:41 AM
Subject: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular
Cutter)
> Since the Cutter book got delayed a bit....
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_news.htm
>
> Jesse
>
> "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
> deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jones, Dean
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 7:57 AM
> > To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> > Subject: RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter
> >
> >
> >
> > Mr Atkins,
> >
> > I'm looking forward to Modular Cutter..I like 'em too. I just didn't
react
> > :)
> >
> > Mr Whipsnade,
> >
> > Modular Cutter and the Mod. cutter deckplans are on the SJG shipping
slate
> > for Feb. Typically SJG Ship in the middle 2 weeks of the month ( in my
> > experience usually between the 9th and the 20th) so your FLGS
> > should have on
> > in about a fortnight.
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Dean 'Spies? Nonsense!' Jones :)
> >
> >
> >
> > >"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >> The Modular Cutter book, sir, is one I cannot wait to see! I've
> > >always
> > >> had a soft spot in my heart for those multi-purpose, 50dTon, little
> > >rascals.
> > >> Could you let us know when it's due out? Please?
> > >
> > >Well I'm glad you're looking forward to it - reactions to the
> > >title on this
> > >mailing list have been mixed. I'm certainly proud of it, and
> > >think its a
> > >good book. But I think we can safely say I'm slightly biased.
> > >I hope you
> > >(and others) enjoy it.
> > >
> > >As far as its release date is concerned, I can't say - that's
> > >a question
> > >better suited for Loren or someone at SJG. I believe the text
> > >is getting
> > >finishing touches at the printers - if true, it could be RSN (real soon
> > >now). On the SJG website, it is listed as being "at the
> > >printers". But to be
> > >honest, I'm not in that loop, so I couldn't say for sure.
> > >
> > >Andy Akins
> > >co-author, GURPS Traveller:Modular Cutter
> > >
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:43:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
In mail you write:
> As there is no higher court they'd have to. IRL can't Americans sue Federal
> agencies?
You can only sue the government (or its agencies) if it deigns to
*allow* you to.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:52:59 +0000
From: jonathan@att.net
Subject: provenance of "Bangalore Torpedo"
David Smart:
> I gotta ask. How did the Bangalore Torpedo get its
name? I
> understand the "torpedo" part but not "Bangalore".
Tod Glenn:
> After Bangalore, India. But I never found out why.
Anyone else?
It was invented / first used there. The Oxford English
Dictionary traces
the term to 1913, when it was used in the Royal
Engineers' Journal, and
includes this citation from the 'Illustrated London News'
CXCVIII, 80/2:
"The Bangalore Torpedo first used by an inventive R.E.
[Royal Engineer]
officer at Bangalore...".
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:54:25 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
> >After Bangalore, India. But I never found out why. Anyone else?
>
> The Bangalore Torpedo was invented by Captain McClintock of the
> Bengal, Bombay and Madras Sappers and Miners in 1912. It took
> its name from the region of India where it was developed. The
> Bangalore Torpedo was developed to counter the problem posed
> by the rise of barbed wire obstacles during the Boer War and the
> Russo-Japanese War of 1904. The original torpedo was a 5.5
> meter length of pipe filled with 27.2 kg of dynamite. Early in WW II,
> it was found to be effective at clearing a path through minefields.
>
Somehow, I just knew that you would know the answer to this one, Mark.
But, what is the airspeed of an unladen sparrow, smartguy?
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:56:19 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Forboldn (was re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR)
> > if, when you're giving directions to your house, you say something like,
> > "after the paved road ends ..."
>
> I used to live in Spokane, and I own property up by Priest Lake. And my
> only comment is "You had paved roads?!" <g>
>
I can see where this is going...
Anyone care to comment about groat tipping.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:57:27 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Shrieker Scan needed
on 14/2/01 4:45 pm, Loren Wiseman at lkw@io.com wrote:
> I need someone to scan all illos of the Shriekers from Safari ship and send
> them to me ASAP.
Did so. Enjoy. :)
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:02:27 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter)
on 14/2/01 4:41 pm, Jesse Degraff at jedegraf@cisco.com wrote:
> Since the Cutter book got delayed a bit....
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_news.htm
Oh neat! Is the front inspired by the AH-64?
Gordon.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3666
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3667
Date: | 2/14/01 10:39:18 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 14 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3667
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
Re: Legal issues with megacorps
RE: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter)
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions +Modular Cutter)
Boarding craft
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Deep Space Station construction
Re: Re : Population stuff
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Legal issues with megacorps
RE: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter)
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:01:19 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
Subject: Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
Tod:
African or East European?
John W. Fox
>
> > >After Bangalore, India. But I never found out why. Anyone else?
> >
> > The Bangalore Torpedo was invented by Captain McClintock of the
> > Bengal, Bombay and Madras Sappers and Miners in 1912. It took
> > its name from the region of India where it was developed. The
> > Bangalore Torpedo was developed to counter the problem posed
> > by the rise of barbed wire obstacles during the Boer War and the
> > Russo-Japanese War of 1904. The original torpedo was a 5.5
> > meter length of pipe filled with 27.2 kg of dynamite. Early in WW II,
> > it was found to be effective at clearing a path through minefields.
> >
>
> Somehow, I just knew that you would know the answer to this one, Mark.
>
> But, what is the airspeed of an unladen sparrow, smartguy?
>
> Tod
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:09:26 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Legal issues with megacorps
Michael Daumen wrote:
> > >> I might even go
> > >> farther and say that although individuals can sue a
> > >Megacorp, the usual
> > >> Megacorp response is to use every legal means to defend themselves.
> >
> > Several hundred dtons of lawyers?
> >
> > >
> > >Where could an individual sue an MC? What Court? An Imperium Court
> > >I assume? What is the legal basis of it's foundation? Are
> > >Imperial agencies
> > >subject to the jurisdiction as well, i.e., could an Imperial
> > >citizen sue the
> > >Imperium or an Imperial agency (which will necessarily include nobles)
> > >in an Imperial court?
> >
> Every system that a corporation does business in would be subject to that
> system's judicial jurisdiction, if it functions like the American court
> system. And "doing business" has been (to use an extreme example) construed
> the presence of a corporation's product in the jurisdiction, regardless of
> who brought it there. So if you have an anti-corporate world your chances
> of sucess would probably be higher.
Ah yes, "stream of commerce" and jurisdiction.
I think I stop at the first step and say that an Imperial legal system is likely
to have little similarity to the American common-law system. Those pesky
Nobles, to say nothing of the Emperor just make it too difficult.
But woe be to the member world who tries to mess with an Imperial citizen,
i.e, an Imperial MegaCorps. That would be probably be interfering with
interstellar commerce and likely result in an audit for the last century to make
sure the member world hadn't underpaid its taxes.
> > As there is no higher court they'd have to. IRL can't Americans sue
> Federal
> > agencies?
> >
> Government has "sovereign immunity," which means that without it's consent
> it can't be sued. This is waived in many cases to allow suits against
> governmental entities of many kinds - at least in the US.
And in the OTU we have sovereign individuals.
> >
> > Would the Emperor actual make all the law himself? Seems like a big job
> and
> > one he'd likely delegate. Presumably the Archdukes are in charge of Domain
> > courts and have powers to set their own laws (with the Emperor holding
> veto,
> > natch), otherwise 1. The Imperial legal system becomes monolithic and
> > wouldn't work and 2. What's the point of being an Archduke if you can't
> make
> > laws? Since being a domain Archduke is also a massive job in and of itself
> > the Archdukes probably have a legal staff of their own that actually
> oversee
> > the technical aspects of legislation, based upon the lower-level (in
> > computer programming terms) input from the Archduke. Of course, an
> Archdukes
> > legal staff is made up of lawyers, and the'd probably not streamline the
> > legal process as you suggest because it goes against their nature :)
> >
> I imagine Imperial law to be what the Framers of the Constitution envisioned
> for American federal law. Only used in disputes that arise between
> jurisdictions. I would bet a large portion of Imperial law deals with (a)
> choice-of-law rules, to determine which legal system's code applies in a
> given controversy; and (b) pre-emption, to determine when "local" law is
> supplanted by Imperial. Imperial law would be restricted to cases between
> extraplanetary entities, leaving the bulk of cases to planetary courts.
Well, without getting into a discussion of "Framer's Intent" , I'll just point
out that those lofty ideals didn't last very long. If you put the 3I in a legal
setting there are clauses in the Warrant of Restoration that grab power in
an even more broad manner. Supremacy clauses, inflationary commerce
clauses, it's got it all.
See my notes on the subject, based on the constitution in Milieu 0, at:
http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/
Many dismiss Milieu 0 and that's fine. My picture of what the Imperium
does regarding law is different. In short it's:
- Screw with trade and we'll smack you.
- Deal in Slaves and we'll shackle you.
- Engage in Piracy or use Weapons of Mass Destruction and we'll shoot you.
'Course, you don't need courts for that.
What you do want courts for is for Imperial citizens to settle instellar
commercial
legal disputes without sucking up too much of your administrative resources.
And to cut down on the shooting wars. Which is basically the same reason you
started to see them in the late-medieval period when Kings began to monopolize
the means of violence, outlawing private armies and such, and starting the idea
of the 'nation'. At least that's my conclusion from research Maitland and other
legal historians.
You can't afford to let important member worlds have screwy trade rules that
make things difficult for business. No one cares about the pissant worlds as
long as they pay their taxes and don't make trouble. That's why for the
important
trading worlds I've always thought there would be a parallel to the Uniform
Commercial Code with Noble oversight, probably with minor variations between
sectors. The UCC was essentially written to codify the ways in which businesses
had found it was easiest to operate - which is distinct from how most large
areas
of law are written. Most states of the US have adopted it, many with some
variations,
some with none. For the Imperium's big trading worlds, I can easily see how
those
member worlds might be leaned on to adopt a similar code so that business can
have a predictable foundation.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:08:13 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
If you were to do this you would design ships for this very specific
function. Much like supertankers. they would have their own supply of fuel
and not use anything from the cargo to get back and forth on.
Second you would design the ship to transport as much fuel as possable.
basically i would design something that had say 3 or 4 Fuel tank pods that
the tanker would drop off. it would pick up the empties and jump back to the
fueling point.
these Pods would upon connection to the tanker "hook" their jump grid to the
tankers so that the grid would cover all points on the ship.
next i would build me a refinery or collection station at my fuel source. it
would be or can be part of the local systems fuel source (if there is one).
then my tanker drops out of jump and again drops off empties, picks up full
pods, fuels herself and then heads for 100 Diameters for the jump back to
the station.
This should be easly doable with the ship hull sizes that are makeable with
HG2. build a hull that with 3 Fuel pods has say a tonage of say 50k tons. On
the actual tanker you would need drives big enough to move a full load,
enough fuel tankage copacity the handle a double jump. Possably some small
work craft for manuvering the pods around and crews quarters. You would not
need much more than that.
I bet with say a small investment from the systems supplying the fuel this
would not only be doable but probably drop that cost down from 2100 per ton
to something much more econimically feasable (sp?)
Using free traders and far traders to deliver fuel is not only un economical
it is wasteful. Ships come in many different flavors. in MTU these tankers
already exist. Some are designed to to have small skimmers skim gas giants
and collect unrefined fuel which is the delieved to the tanker which in turn
transports to a refinery. Some are designed to just transport IE the
detachable pods mentioned above.
Anyway that is the way i see it. it just takes some thought and some
investment to do this properly. and you bet that if it would open up trade
and improve a systems markets and exports they would want to find a way to
do it with as little cost as possable. if they can get the cost of per ton
of fuel low enough people will use it. being able to get somewhere on 2
jumps instead of say 5 is a huge savings. at least in my mind.
Hasta
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:13:15 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter)
Well, the book's at the printers now, and final draft was written some
months ago. I don't know if there was anything like that in there or not,
as I haven't seen the full text yet. I was given a list of several of the
various cutters & modules that SJG wanted shots of.
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Tod Glenn
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 9:51 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions +
> Modular Cutter)
>
>
> How about a bording cutter (Lamprey type) with the same basic hull design,
> but the cockpit mounted dosally and a forward docking/entry hatch with
> cutters?
>
> Tod
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
> To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 8:41 AM
> Subject: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular
> Cutter)
>
>
> > Since the Cutter book got delayed a bit....
> > http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_news.htm
> >
> > Jesse
> >
> > "They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
> > deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> > -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> > > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jones, Dean
> > > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 7:57 AM
> > > To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
> > > Subject: RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Mr Atkins,
> > >
> > > I'm looking forward to Modular Cutter..I like 'em too. I just didn't
> react
> > > :)
> > >
> > > Mr Whipsnade,
> > >
> > > Modular Cutter and the Mod. cutter deckplans are on the SJG shipping
> slate
> > > for Feb. Typically SJG Ship in the middle 2 weeks of the month ( in my
> > > experience usually between the 9th and the 20th) so your FLGS
> > > should have on
> > > in about a fortnight.
> > >
> > > regards,
> > >
> > > Dean 'Spies? Nonsense!' Jones :)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > >> The Modular Cutter book, sir, is one I cannot wait to
> see! I've
> > > >always
> > > >> had a soft spot in my heart for those multi-purpose, 50dTon, little
> > > >rascals.
> > > >> Could you let us know when it's due out? Please?
> > > >
> > > >Well I'm glad you're looking forward to it - reactions to the
> > > >title on this
> > > >mailing list have been mixed. I'm certainly proud of it, and
> > > >think its a
> > > >good book. But I think we can safely say I'm slightly biased.
> > > >I hope you
> > > >(and others) enjoy it.
> > > >
> > > >As far as its release date is concerned, I can't say - that's
> > > >a question
> > > >better suited for Loren or someone at SJG. I believe the text
> > > >is getting
> > > >finishing touches at the printers - if true, it could be RSN
> (real soon
> > > >now). On the SJG website, it is listed as being "at the
> > > >printers". But to be
> > > >honest, I'm not in that loop, so I couldn't say for sure.
> > > >
> > > >Andy Akins
> > > >co-author, GURPS Traveller:Modular Cutter
> > > >
> >
> >
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 09:13:39 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote
> Understand. My wife is Cheryl, but we have another Cheryl in the gaming
> group. They are also both Cheryl G., thus mystically my Cheryl in now
> Sparky (it involves the removal of an antler...don't ask) and the other
> Cheryl is now Red (and no, she does not have red hair).
An thair weah hav pruuf pozataive thayt rohl playin gaymz
cauz gahdlais, aeval, atheeistaic cahmyounizm. Thais fowl
Chainaiz fif cahlumnist haiz infiltaites oah beluvved
cuhntry youzing th' naim of Cherryl. [1]
Solomani Confederation Undersecretary of Cultural Affairs
Newman
[1] Itzs fonettic, rahyed it laik it dun be rote.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:16:23 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions +Modular Cutter)
That and every other attack chopper out there ;) I took a *slight* liberty
with Andy's deckplan of the beast to make it look a little better visually.
Nobody should loose sleep over it though. Andy certainly didn't :)
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Gordon Hundley
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 10:02 AM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions
> +Modular Cutter)
>
>
> on 14/2/01 4:41 pm, Jesse Degraff at jedegraf@cisco.com wrote:
>
> > Since the Cutter book got delayed a bit....
> > http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_news.htm
>
> Oh neat! Is the front inspired by the AH-64?
>
> Gordon.
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:20:41 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Boarding craft
Quick question for the list.
If one were using small, high speed armored vessels as boarding boats to
seize an not fully disabled ship, and said vessels managed to make hull
contact, could they be safely engaged by the victim shipps gunnery? (i.e.
how far can main gun depress). And are there dead zones on a ship's hull
where it cannot reach with it's own weapons?
I ask because it seems to me that a ship need not be fully disabled in order
to be boarded, so long as a reasonable amount of damage has been done, and
the ship can be 'cut out' from any supporting vessels.
I should be relatively easy (and cheap) to build high acceleration, well
armored limited duration boarding craft that could fasten lamprey-like to
the ships hull in dozens of disparate locations. The area around the attach
point would be softened up through the use of 'infinite-repeaters' (IMTU),
high rate of fire projectile launchers whose purpose is th create spallation
on the inner side of the hull to kill crew.
The boarding vessel world then cut an entry point through the hull (or
hatchway) and proceed with the boarding action. By using a large swarm of
these boarding vessels, there would be a multitude of points for the crew to
defend, while still fighting the ship.
Thoughts?
- ----
When the pin is pulled, Mr. Grenade is not our friend.
- ----
Tod Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.travellerguns.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:59:47 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Hello Ian,
>Hal, thanks for doing this ... it's good work.
Don't thank me for it <grin>, I do this to sharpen my skills...
>
>Wait a second guys. 30 dtons of fuel for a 200 dton ship to do a jump-1 ?
Shouldnt it be 20 dtons of
>fuel per jump-1 for this ship ?
In CT, using just the Book 2 rules, you need the standard 10% volume for
the jump per jump level, but you also use a fuel hog power plant. As was
pointed out by another poster - the fuel usage for energy is per month, not
per jump. Instead of using 30 dtons of fuel for a jump, it really uses 25.
Of course, it assumes the standard of 1 week for jump, and 1 week for
operations within the system etc...
>No backup computer ? It's a finicky point, but even FS has it's safety
rules :)
Back in CT days, you only installed one computer <grin>
>Why streamlined, given that it makes it's money in deep space ? OK, so
we'll assume that the
>streamlining and the spare computer cancel out.
If you want to skim gas giants, you needed (according to CT) to streamline
your ship. This gave you fuel scoops and the like.
>Is it more economic to buy 20 dtons of fuel at these rates, and take about
18 days to get the cargo to
>port in a jump-1 ship, or to ship it in a jump-2 ship ?
Remember: in the bad old days of CT, you did not earn your income by the
distance travelled, you earned it by the jump. Paying three times the fuel
cost for two jumps and freeing yourself up for 1 additional jump was
cheaper than making three jumps to reach your destination.
>I dont have a copy of book 2 (I use FFS2 for ships), but the above design
should be pretty easy to
>retrofit into a jump-2 Far Trader.
>
>Remember that 18 days (2 jumps, plus a day into and out of port, plus a
day to load and a day to
>unload) means that the jump-1 ship must make more profit per voyage. The
jump-2 ship needs 11 days
>for the same run, which means it needs to make less profit per run.
True - but the Jump-2 ship has less cargo space to make a profit with.
Remember:
Jump 1 200 ton traders have 82 tons of cargo space and costs 37.08 Mcr. A
jump 2 version of said ship would only have 82-5-20-1-3 or 53 tons of cargo
space. The difference was ascertained due to the difference between Jump 1
drive and Jump 2 drive, tankage to handle the jump, extra computer space,
and extra power plant space. How much does a "Far Trader" Cost? First
problem of a Far Trader versus the Jump-1 Trader is that they don't get to
use the standard hull.
Ship Design of Far Trader using CT book 2 rules:
Hull 200 tons at .1 Mcr per ton (non-standard hull) 20 Mcr
Streamlined in order to get unrefined fuel: 2 Mcr
Type 2 Computer for Jump two programs: 9 Mcr 2 tons
Type B jump drive, B power drive, A manuever Drive: 40 Mcr 23 tons
Bridge 1 Mcr 20 tons
Fuel Tanks 0 Mcr 60 tons
10 staterooms 20 Mcr 40 tons
20 low berths 1 Mcr 10 tons
Cargo space 45 tons
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
Totals 93 Mcr 200 tons
Such a beast only has what amounts to 45,000 Cr income potential plus
staterooms versus the Jump 1's 82,000 Cr plus the *same* staterooms.
Looking at it strictly from the fuel cost problem?
30 tons of fuel at 1,500 per would work out to 45,000 versus 15,000. Total
cost is an additional 30,000. For the Jump 1 ship, this is the loss of
income for 30 tons of cargo space. Bad news right? But look at the
alternative. The Jump 2 ship has a loan outstanding of .9 x 93 or 83.7 Mcr
versus the Free Trader's outstanding loan of 37.8. Jump 2 ships have
*less* income earning potential than Jump 1 ships and have a heavier burden
financially speaking than do Jump 1 ships. The Jump 2 ship by the way of
comparison, loses not 40 tons worth of income due to higher fuel costs, but
37 tons due to lost internal space for their jump drives and such.
What are the monthly bills for this 83.7 Mcr monster? Excluding fuel
costs, this monster pays the same salary costs as the Jump-1 beast plus a
monthly loan load of 348,750. Compare this against 154,500. Max income
per jump for the Jump-2 beast is (best case scenario!) 6 x 10,000 (high
passengers) + 20 x 1,000 (low passengers) + 45,000 (cargo) or 125,000 per
jump. I will leave the details regarding wages, port fees, and fuel costs
as an exercise in math for the rest of you <grin>.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:11:48 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Deep Space Station construction
Hello Tim,
I didn't bother to analyze what it would cost for a system ship doing the
work, nor having an operation situated at the jump limit of the gas giant.
Thanks for the info <grin>. Care to post those fuel skimmers and the base
station? I suggest you do so under the subject lable of [CT] Constructing
a Deep Space Station
>But if you really are in a hurry, cannabalisation could work. Just
>don't forget to very carefully remove the jump drive and re-use it.
>Though it might be only 2-5% of the volume of the ship, it would
>usually be about 50-70% of the overall cost -- not something to leave
>on a station that isn't going to jump anywhere.
What I'd really like to do for the Traveller Mailing list at large? Using
both CT for one set of parameters, and GURPS TRAVELLER for another set,
build a functioning Deep Space station listing all the numbers and the
like. Perhaps GURPS STARPORT could be used as a source material?
Any takers on this? I could use a minor break in banging my head in
programming for a short time <grin>
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:14:29 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Re : Population stuff
Hello Tim,
Remember - the luminosity of an M class star is considerably lower than a
G class. In order to achieve the same "luminosity" value as with a G
class, the M class has to be considerably closer - within the distance for
tidal locking. I can dig up my book on World Building by Stephen Gillett
if you'd like to give you the formulas... (mutters darkly - where is that
book...)
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:18:37 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Hello Peter,
>What about your return on the Cr 6,570,000 you used as a down
>payment on this ship. If you had taken this MCr 6.57 and invested
>it in the bond or stock market instead of buying a ship you would
>be earning money on that too. You can't figure the true cost of
>a ship until you consider what other uses you could have made
>of the money.
If you go that route, then you have to include it in *every* comparison
between ship hulls and jump drive abilities. <grin>. Thus, you'd have to
include this factor in the original cost of the Jump-1 Merchant versus the
Jump 2 merchant. See previous post to see how a Jump 2 Far Trader costs
more than Twice the cost of a Jump 1 free trader.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:21:23 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Hello Larsen,
You and others have raised good points. Nothing like other brains
following paths you've not gone down <grin>.
>Hal,
> I've always leaned towards a more modular and lean method. Building a
>ship, simply to jump it once, then cannabilzing it upon arrival seems to be
>too much work. And too much money!
> Instead, how about ferrying several modules (like those belonging to
>the 50 dT cutter) out to the site, along with the loose parts and
>incidentals you'll need, and putting your station together like a "tinker
>toy"?
> I also do not envision large stations offering much in the way of
>amenities to anyone but their crews. So no DS9's. I'd think a bare bones
>fuel and navigational station, with some SAR assets and life support spares
>would keep the cost down.
> The possibility to lease research space to interested corporations and
>colleges might arise too.
>
>
> Larsen
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:27:25 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Legal issues with megacorps
Commenting on Michael Daumen's reply...
If what Michael says is correct, and it has a certain appealing elegance
to it, it would then matter what the local government's law code was like.
In regions where the local government is propped up by a Megacorp - it
would be bad news to have to deal with it.
Adding onto Michael's comments - I would suspect that any issues
involving transportation of an interstellar nature would likely follow
Imperial Guidelines. From what I remember reading (Miliue Zero perhaps?),
local governments may not enact laws that interfere with interstellar
trade. By inference, this also means any laws that hurt interstellar trade...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:29:24 -0600
From: "Andy Akins" <andyakins@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter)
"Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com> wrote:
> Gorgeous as ever Jesse (and the Assault Cutter's nice too) :)
You think its cool? When Jesse sent me the shots of all the cutters he did,
I was giddy like a school-girl. Its rather spiffy to spend the time
designing up something - then Jesse turns around, does the images, and I can
say "YES!!!! That's it!!!!"
The man is good, that's for sure.
> Is the Orbital Insertion module some kind of Sayat gadget?
What an utterly terrifying thought! Although I think the Sayat could do some
*ahem* interesting things with modular technology.
The OI module is full of jump capsules/tubes and troops - its designed for
Imperial Marines meteoric assaults.
Andy Akins
co-author GURPS Traveller:Modular Cutter
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:36:55 -0800
From: Bill <beast@aracnet.com>
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
> > Then we meet Kiri. They are now, to the SF group, Kiri-chan and Other
>Kiri.
>> --
>>
>
>Understand. My wife is Cheryl, but we have another Cheryl in the gaming
>group. They are also both Cheryl G., thus mystically my Cheryl in now
>Sparky (it involves the removal of an antler...don't ask) and the other
>Cheryl is now Red (and no, she does not have red hair).
>
>
>Tod
And we all think he looks better without the antler
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:34:07 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Larsen E. Whipsnade, or someone else of the same name, wrote:
>
> >From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
> "Just a quick question - how long does one have to be a member
> of/subscriber to the TML before it is considered polite to refer to others
> by their given names?"
>
> Mr. Rowse,
> If I may hazard a guess in this situation, the polite form of address
> shold be used until the addressee invites the addesser to use a more
> familiar one.
> Hence, the happy members of the Bay Area group, Ms. Morgan, Mr. Berry,
> Mr. Schwartz, et. al.,who have all met one another socially, use more
> familiar terms when addressing each another.
> Ms. Morgan's musings that I am simply following the standards of
> politeness found outside the US are correct... [snip]
On the other hand, even though I haven't met any members of the list socially,
I still think it very odd to address them by surname because, well, they're
_gamers_. Why does that make a difference?
Gamers are "my tribe" regardless of where in the world they happen to live.
We have certain cultural touchstones that we share, and we develop new ones
as we go. One of these is that, frankly, a lot of us are somewhat lacking in
some social graces[1]. Thus, the better-adapted of us learn to look past
social graces or lack of same and try and divine the intent behind the
facade.
Having done so, we sometimes find that people who seem rude actually mean
well, and that certain people can screw you brutally while wearing a smile,
a nice suit, and a good set of manners. This tends to put us off formality
for formality's sake.
Let me clarify that I am not at all suggesting here that Mr. Whipsnade[2] is
a bad person. Under many, if not most, circumstances, defaulting to extra-
polite is a wise course of action. It just seems, around gamers, to be a
bit much.
Since gamers don't usually use honorific forms, when one _does_ use them,
we all perk up and start wondering _why_ -- is it a personal affectation?
Are they calling you "Mister Grubnitch" in a silly English accent, perhaps
invoking an episode of Monty Python that you somehow missed, or referencing
some other cultural icon? Are they being coldly formal? Are they making fun
of you?
But at this point, I know that when I read a post beginning "Mr.
Bornschlegel"[3], well, "it's just Larsen doing that thing he does."[5].
Doesn't bother me, but neither does use of a first name.
Incidentally, in professional situations, I normally introduce myself as
"Russell B", though my card has my full name on it. I don't expect people
to call me "Mister B" in that situation.
In a strange reversal of the sort that geeks tend to promote, I sometimes
use honorifics with people I'm _very_ familiar with -- my boss-and-coworker-
of-7-years, for example, and get the same thing in return. Silly English
accents in this context are optional:
"Mis-tahh Morgan!"[6]
"Yes, Mis-tahh B!"
"When you get a chahnce, I would like to go ovahh this bug report with
yew!"
"Very well, just allow me a few moments to dispose of this blue ferret!"
"Ferrets are not blue, Mis-tahh Morgan!"
- -Russell B
[1] There may be deep-seated psychological reasons why poor social graces
are connected with a fascination for science, science fiction, fantasy,
geeky things, and the like.
[2] You have _no_ idea how hard it was to decide whether to say "Mr.
Whipsnade" or "Larsen" right there.
[3] Spoken or written, I don't expect anyone to get Bornschlegel right --
although Mr. Whipsnade[4] has done so. Thus I'd much rather they addressed me
by first name, which people can at least say correctly, even if they drop
one "L" in writing.
[4] See 2.
[5] See 4.
[6] No relation to Kiri. Or to Kiri, for that matter.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3667
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3668
Date: | 2/14/01 11:53:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 14 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3668
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Boarding craft
Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
Re: Forboldn (was re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR)
Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
[CT/HG] Far Trader
Re: boarding actions
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: Deep Space Station construction
RE: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: Forboldn (was re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR)
Re: [CT/HG] Far Trader
Re: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter
Re: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter)
Re: [CT/HG] Far Trader
RE: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: How a Densitometer Works
RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter
Sparrows...
Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
RE: Deep Space Jumps
re: Hull jump grids
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: [CT/HG] Far Trader
RE: Deep Space Jumps
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:44:22 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Boarding craft
At 10:20 AM 02/14/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>Quick question for the list.
Adding fuel for thought?
What if those boarding craft were accompanied by fighters with the
Targeting program permitting them to silence turrets?
I would also suspect that boarding actions between ships that can manuever
would be highly difficult in that you couldn't match vectors easily. I
would likely make it a contest of piloting skills where you would subtract
your opponent's skill from your skill when rolling on the evasions manuever
versus the closing manuever. Failure on both side's count as an automatic
"damage" roll as if a weapon had hit and no boarding possible. Failure on
the evader's side means that you have boarding without damage. Failure on
the boarder's side means no boarding.
As a secondary thought? If boarding were that difficult to achieve,
perhaps Battle suit trained assault forces might tether themselves outside
the hull. Specialized grappling weapons might be employed on the surface
of a ship's hull to fire grappling hooks and ropes at the target. Under
optimal conditions, the battlesuit untethers itself, and grabs the
grappling hook - praying that he doesn't get a Moby Dick hell ride from his
intended victim...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:43:48 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
on 14/2/01 6:01 pm, John Fox at jfox@verity.com wrote:
> Tod:
> African or East European?
> John W. Fox
American Fox sparrows (Passerella iliaca) obviously. ;)
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:44:43 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Forboldn (was re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR)
on 14/2/01 5:56 pm, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:
> I can see where this is going...
>
> Anyone care to comment about groat tipping.
10% is the rule, but it depends on the services performed.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:51:22 -0800 (PST)
From: John Fox <jfox@verity.com>
Subject: Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
Gordan:
To bring this discussion to a close
Gee, I don't know . . AAAAUUUGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!
John W. Fox
>
> on 14/2/01 6:01 pm, John Fox at jfox@verity.com wrote:
>
> > Tod:
> > African or East European?
> > John W. Fox
>
> American Fox sparrows (Passerella iliaca) obviously. ;)
>
> Gordon.
>
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:02:53 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: [CT/HG] Far Trader
Hello Folks,
I didn't like the stats on the Far Trader using CT book 2 rules, so I
built a Far Trader in High Guard fashion to see what the difference was like:
200 ton hull - Needle/wedge 24 Mcr
Bridge: 1 Mcr 20 tons
Jump 2 drives 24 Mcr 6 tons
Power plant 2 18 Mcr 12 tons
Manuever 1 6 Mcr 4 tons
Type 2 computer 9 Mcr 2 tons
10 staterooms 5 Mcr 40 tons
20 low berths 1 Mcr 10 tons
Fuel tank 0 Mcr 42 tons
Cargo capacity 0 Mcr 64 tons
- -------------------------------------------------
totals 86 Mcr 200 tons
Discounted by 10% 77.4 Mcr
Using the concept that standardized class hulls only cost 40% normal hull
costs (as per the examples in Book 2), the Far Trader's cost would be
lowered by .6 x 24 or 14.4 Mcr.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:00:24 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
"Some of the design systems have this silly idea that the powerplant
needs to be sized so you can run everything at once."
Mr. Erickson<
I'm assuming a certain recovery period necessary for the auxiliary (ie
non-tokamak) machinery in the engine room. This assume's that our "MHD as
topper" speculation is feasible. The MHD built "into" the tokamak would
only provide a fraction of the electrical generation onboard. Our other
"step down" cycles would generate the rest.
For this example's sake let's assume our tokamak has scrammed.
Engineering rushes about to restore it to operation. The ship in the
meantime is relying in APU's and/or storage batteries for vital needs (this
is one reason why I enjoy FF&S). The tokamak comes back up and the MHD
picks up the ship's main bus again. But how much load can it handle?
It will still take time to recover the "step-down" cycles and add their
capacities to the main bus.
So, what would be a good division of the generating capacity? Tokamak -
10%, secondary 90%? 25 - 75? 50 - 50?
Larsen
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
>
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:25:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
In mail you write:
> At 09:04 PM 2/14/2001 +1300, you wrote:
>>Douglas E. Berry wrote :
>
>>> Why apologize? After all, I *am* married to Kiri. :)
>>
>>OK, go on, spill it.
>>
>>I disctinctly remember you mentioning a "Kirsten" at some point.
>>Or is bigamy acceptable over there now ?
>
> Hm. How to explain the dynamics of a polyamorous marriage, in which both
> partners are bisexual to some extent, without taking up several Digests
> with consent forms, charts, and several cool PowerPoint transparencies..
If you ever have enough time and silliness available to draw up that
"presentation", I'd *love to see it.
Though I'll be the first to admit that the list isn't the place. Not
unless you claim it's "local customs" on some world in the TU anyway. :-)
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:04:48 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Station construction
Apologies if this is repetitive, I missed the beginning of the thread.
For Deep Space Bases isn't the easist way to just convert ships?
Use a jump tender so you can get the jump engine back, the
station doesn't need it. The Jump Ships from Fighting Ships, p.22,
look very useful for this.
Jump a decommissioned dreadnaught or two into the desired system
and a fleet of these jump ships, all loaded with fuel and material.
Take the jump engines out of the dreadnaughts and return them
with the jump ships (I think someone was suggesting this previously).
Repeat as necessary.
Since you've probably got a long time frame that you want the base
to operate for, 20+ years at a minimum I would think, send as large
a planetoid you can find sub-C. Have that planetoid prepped for
use, hollowed out or whatever to get the mass down. Start sending
ice comets on a regular cycle as a fall back water supply for the
base station, more for the fuel you can get than the drinking water.
The real question is where to put one? In Chronor? In the core-spin
section of Jewell?
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:10:41 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
On 14 Feb 2001, at 10:08, William Lane wrote:
> next i would build me a refinery or collection station at my fuel source. it
[snip]
> already exist. Some are designed to to have small skimmers skim gas giants
> and collect unrefined fuel which is the delieved to the tanker which in turn
> transports to a refinery. Some are designed to just transport IE the
> detachable pods mentioned above.
What kind of semi-stationary facilities are/could be used to improve
the collection of unr.fuel from a system's gas giants? Has anyone
designed any? (I'm thinking of low-orbiting facilities with either
large scoops extended down into the atmosphere [if feasible]; or CG
facilities sitting the upper reaches of the atm. with small craft to
shuttle fuel containers to more amenable distribution locations.)
Rob D.
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Canis meus id comedit. -- My dog ate it.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:11:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
> > > Then we meet Kiri. They are now, to the SF group, Kiri-chan and Other
> >Kiri.
> >> --
> >>
> >
> >Understand. My wife is Cheryl, but we have another Cheryl in the gaming
> >group. They are also both Cheryl G., thus mystically my Cheryl in now
> >Sparky (it involves the removal of an antler...don't ask) and the other
> >Cheryl is now Red (and no, she does not have red hair).
Now I am REALLY cracking up.
Why?
Because my original "English name", which I hate and had legally changed,
and which I will not answer to, so don't call me that, was:
Cheryl.
(Sorry to any Cheryls out there, but it was really, really miserable to be
a black-haired, black-eyed, *white*-skinned funny looking geeky hapa kid
named Cheryl in the era of suntanned blonde goddesses, two of whom were
named Cheryl Tiegs and Cheryl Ladd. I never liked the name and THEY made
me loathe it. When, at 17, I got given my Japanese name, it stuck like
glue because NO ONE thought the name Cheryl suited me, as even my
adoptive parents admitted by then.)
lol,
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:17:14 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Forboldn (was re: Waaaaayy OT:Grants Pass, OR)
>From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
>on 14/2/01 5:56 pm, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:
I can see where this is going...
Anyone care to comment about groat tipping.
10% is the rule, but it depends on the services performed.
Gordon.
Of course, you must pay the bar fine first.
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:18:35 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: [CT/HG] Far Trader
Have you seen Supplement 8, Traders and Gunboats?
Page 46-47 had HG stats for all the ships in that supp.
Type A2 Far Trader:
Empress Nicholle: MCr 59.56 A2-22211R1-000000-00000-0
Empress Marava: MCr 61.36 A2-22211R1-01000-10001-0
Empress Margaret: MCr 64.96 A2-22211R1-000000-30000-0
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:22:44 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
> What are the monthly bills for this 83.7 Mcr monster? Excluding fuel
> costs, this monster pays the same salary costs as the Jump-1 beast plus a
> monthly loan load of 348,750. Compare this against 154,500. Max income
I know I'm way out of my league here, but wouldn't the situation be
eased if the loan period were extended? If there were a sufficient
reason for lenders wanting to promote (or their most important
customers wanting to promote) J-2 traders, mightn't they be inclined
to thus help out the poor, loan-burdened J-2s? Imperial programs to
promote trade somehow (supporting the poor J-2 drive manufacturers?)
Rob D.
- --
Rob
'We are born naked, wet and hungry. Then things get worse.'
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:31:05 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
Hello Rob,
>What kind of semi-stationary facilities are/could be used to improve
>the collection of unr.fuel from a system's gas giants? Has anyone
>designed any? (I'm thinking of low-orbiting facilities with either
>large scoops extended down into the atmosphere [if feasible]; or CG
>facilities sitting the upper reaches of the atm. with small craft to
>shuttle fuel containers to more amenable distribution locations.)
>
>Rob D.
Houston <pssst, where the heck is Houston?> - we have a problem. The
contragrav plates experienced a severe malfunction when one of the drunken
skimmer pilots rammed us from below. This station has been experiencing
intermittant grav plate failures and is sinking to the gas giant's surface.
All crew have abandoned the platform and are watching as it disappears
from sensor range. I've undertaken the novel approach of leaving the
transmitters online and open - broadcasting until the until it can't any
more. I never thought that the sound of a crumpling hull would sound so...
human.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:44:31 -0600
From: "Andy Akins" <andyakins@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote
> Mr. Jones,
> Thank you for the information. You can be assured my running nose
will
> be pressed against my FLGS frosty window in anticipation.
Eegads man! Don't do that! You'll be stuck there till spring! (Unless you
want some skin damage, or someone is kind enough to bring by some warm
water...but don't risk it!!!)
And let me also jump in and say while your politeness is appreciated (we
need more of it in this world), everytime I see/hear Mr. Akins, I look
around for my father. Only my students called me that (or the equally eerie
Professor Akins, which is just SO strange). Please feel free to call me
Andy. Or, if you prefer, Supreme Overlord of the Known Universe. But that's
my professional title. Most of the time, Andy is good :)
Andy Akins
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:34:57 -0600
From: "Andy Akins" <andyakins@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter)
"Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com> wrote:
> How about a bording cutter (Lamprey type) with the same basic hull design,
> but the cockpit mounted dosally and a forward docking/entry hatch with
> cutters?
Not a bad idea - but sorry, not in the Cutters book.
When I designed the boarding module, I thought about that, exactly the way
you described it. I didn't use it because such a design would not fit into
the Imperial standard launch tubes ('cause the diameter of the ship would be
too big). Since that's one of the "fluff" reasons for the cutter (50-ton
fighter, 50-ton cutter, same launch tube, etc), I tossed the idea out.
The version in the book mounts robot arms and two hatches/cutters on one of
the sides of the module. The cutter pulls up alongside the target, the arms
reach out and grab the hull, then pull the ship in and the cutters go to
work.
Andy Akins
co-author GURPS Traveller:Modular Cutter
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:37:59 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: [CT/HG] Far Trader
Bloo?
Do you know what it feels like to have egg on your face? <grin>. I
FORGOT about that suppliment. Gotta go dig it up again. Wonder how they
got the ships to be so cheap?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:35:14 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
"What kind of semi-stationary facilities are/could be used to improve
the collection of unr.fuel from a system's gas giants? Has anyone designed
any? (I'm thinking of low-orbiting facilities with either large scoops
extended down into the atmosphere [if feasible]; or CG facilities sitting
the upper reaches of the atm. with small craft to
shuttle fuel containers to more amenable distribution locations.)"
Mr. Davenport,
Many years ago, a gaming friend of mine proposed, and designed, a huge
+100KdT sphere with a 1 gee manuever drive, fuel scoops and purifers, a
minimal bridge and computer, stateroom, and nothing else. He "parked" this
"Beach Ball", as he called it, in a very elliptical orbit around a gas
giant. During it's closest approaches, it passed through the giant's
atmosphere filling up. A single burn put it back inot it's orbit.
During the other portions of it's orbit, smaller insystem vessels
arrived to tank up. He actually worked out the time periods and all.
Whether this type of thrust assisted skimming orbit can actually be done is
beyond my experience. There are many "orbital mechanics" here who could
comment on this, however.
This same fellow also started toying with a large mass driver (like
what were described to operate in the Bowman system in "Belt Strike")
orbitting a gas giant moon. The driver "slingshotted" unmanned skimming
barges through a gas giant at certain times and on certain vectors. The
barges had scoops and purifiers, and were collected by small chase vessels
when they returned to the moon's vicinity.
I don't know if he ever worked out the math with this one. It seems to
me that you'd need very many barges to keep the "pipeline" flowing.
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 10:38:56 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
hal@buffnet.net wrote
> Hello Peter,
>
> >What about your return on the Cr 6,570,000 you used as a down
> >payment on this ship. If you had taken this MCr 6.57 and invested
> >it in the bond or stock market instead of buying a ship you would
> >be earning money on that too. You can't figure the true cost of
> >a ship until you consider what other uses you could have made
> >of the money.
>
> If you go that route, then you have to include it in *every* comparison
> between ship hulls and jump drive abilities. <grin>.
Yes, of course. That notion was in my original comments.
You have to apply that analysis to all ships. Don't you
do this?
> Thus, you'd have to
> include this factor in the original cost of the Jump-1 Merchant versus the
> Jump 2 merchant. See previous post to see how a Jump 2 Far Trader costs
> more than Twice the cost of a Jump 1 free trader.
Yes but those were both using CT nook 2 rules, most newer Traveller
ship design systems will produce a jump 2 ship costing less than
twice as much as an otherwise identical jump 1 ship.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:39:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: How a Densitometer Works
Tod Glenn writes:
> Couldn't one calculate density based on volume and generated gravitational
> pull (with the mass that is implied)?
Sometimes. I don't think there's any way to tell the difference between a
hollow sphere and a solid sphere of the same mass, for example. A gravity
map will give you a very general shape telling you roughly where the density
is high or low, but the resolution is very low.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:40:28 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter
From: "Andy Akins" <andyakins@earthlink.net>
"Please feel free to call me Andy. Or, if you prefer, Supreme Overlord
of the Known Universe. But that's my professional title. Most of the time,
Andy is good :)"
Andy,
It would be my great pleasure to. May I also request that you call me
Bill or Larsen?
Regards,
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:36:29 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Sparrows...
Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com> writes:
> > >After Bangalore, India. But I never found out why. Anyone else?
<SNIP>
>Somehow, I just knew that you would know the answer to this one, Mark.
>
>But, what is the airspeed of an unladen sparrow, smartguy?
Which kind? American Tree, Baird's, Belding's, Black-chinned, Black-throated,
Botteri's, Brewer's, Cassin's, Chipping, Clay-colored, Eurasian Tree, Field,
Five-stripped, Fox, Gambel's, Golden-crowned, Grasshopper, Harris's,
House, Le Conte's, Lincoln's, Large-billed, Nuttall's, Rufous-crowned,
Rufous-winged, Sage, Sharp-tailed, Savannah, Song, Swamp, Vesper,
White-crowned, White-throated, or Worthen's?
...and that's just the western United States. FYI, the flight speed of the
common N. American House Sparrow ranges from 5 to 39 mph. (Did I
mention that, among other hobbies, I'm also a bird watcher?) :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:24:11 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: GT: Problems in Jumpspace
At 16:48 -0500 13/2/01, mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan
Robertson) wrote:
>Hmm. My main TRAVELLER character, an engineer (speciality being jump) by
>the name of Sandor McGann, would probably start getting interested if he
>heard that. He's mad. Went EVA in jump once, just because he thought there
>was a small degradation in jump grid performance and he insisted on
>checking there and then!
>
>Gilly, for Dom who knows who I'm talking about, is almost as bad :-)
Da, I'd noticed, Komerade.
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:27:00 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
At 18:09 -0500 13/2/01, William Lane <wlane@Asera.com> wrote:
>I read CJ Cherryh's Chanur Novels (which is one of my all time favorites) I
>am just glad that Jumps where not like they described in there. 1 week of
>Sitting at the helm in a dream like state un able to do anything till you
>exited jump.
Unless you're a fleet navigator.....
Actually, I thought that the Hani were much more mobile in jump than
the humans?
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:33:30 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Hull jump grids
At 23:55 -0500 13/2/01, shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson) wrote:
> > What is the TML concensus on MT's hull jump grid? Is it a best avoided
> >gaffe like the jump fuel ruling, or is it pretty much accepted?
>
> Oh, for ghod's sake, please have the courtesy to yell "fire in the
>hole" or something equally helpful before sending a post like this!
>
> <CT/> It's a gaffe, with no basis in _real_ Trav </CT> :)
;-)
I actually rationalise the two (CT lanthanum coils and MT lanthanum
hull grids) as follows:
'A basic jump drive lanthanum coil is used to generate a spherical
jump bubble, which is obviously not the most efficient space for a
lot of ship forms (eg a needle/wedge). The addition of a hull
conforming grid modulates the jump bubble to follow the hull profile,
standing off a meter or two. This addition allows increased drive
performance and efficiency, and is one of the reasons higher levels
of jump are attainable.'
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:48:10 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Hello Rob,
I suppose that the governments could have indeed, subsidized other ships.
There are rules for government subsidized 400 ton ships, why not Jump-2
ships in general, or even Jump 3 ships? I have not as yet bothered to see
just how many ships are required to run an interstellar empire. I suppose,
if someone wanted to use GURPS FAR TRADER to determine the cargo tonnage
that has to be shipped on a weekly basis, and then determine just how many
ships are needed assuming that each ship carries 90% of its cargo hold with
full cargo, I think then we will know how many traders there are etc.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:45:18 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [CT/HG] Far Trader
From: hal@buffnet.net
"Wonder how they got the ships to be so cheap?"
Hal,
I'm sorry but I haven't been following the thread too closely and don't
know the numbers exactly, but did you figure in the 20% class discount?
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:51:11 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
"Actually, I thought that the Hani were much more mobile in jump than
the humans?"
Mr. Mooney,
I believe the Hani could jump without being drugged prior to it.
Humans had to be sedated some what, although other portions of Ms. Cherryh's
novels seem to ignore or find ways around this.
Both species did suffer from jump lag afterwards though.
Larsen
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3668
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3669
Date: | 2/14/01 1:26:14 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 14 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3669
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Population stuff
RE: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Deep Space Jumps
Traveller and Hal...
Re: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Hull jump grids
What is earths Diameter?
RE: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Population stuff
RE: Deep Space Jumps
RE: What is earths Diameter?
Re: How a Densitometer Works
RE: Boarding craft
Re: How a Densitometer Works
J. Paul Getty's Clone (was real life suspended animation)
Therapeutic Human Cloning (was Freezing, cloning, etc.)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:58:21 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Population stuff
On 14 Feb 2001, at 12:12, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> >Uhmm, I think you'll find that life around deep sea vents ("black smokers")
> >is not sustained by photosynthesis (several km under the sea you don't get a
> >lot of light or any other EM radiation for that matter) but a process
> known
> >as chemosynthesis. Unfortunately, I don't know enough to say how it
> >works (presumably its some form of chemical reaction), but it is quite
> >capable of sustaining life.
> The lifeform you seem to be talking of is one that lives off of sulfur. It
> also survives in near boiling temperatures, from which it derives its energy.
And an entire eosystem is based around it, complete with animals up to
shrimps in complexity. And the temperatures well exceed boiling (in the
hundreds of degrees).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:47:26 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
Well,
if you place a refinery say on a moon or in orbit of the gas giant you could
feasibly use the 200 ton surplus free traders to skim the fuel for delivery
to the refinery. as for lowering scoops not sure the gear heads would have
to say weather that would be possible. if done right your tanker carrying
the fuel back and forth would actually just be picking up fuel from the
refinery that would also be supplying the system or some portion of the
systems resources.
really if you get down to it a lot of this is the basic infrastructure that
is going to exist already your just tapping it to help supply another base
with fuel this one out side system. Personally I would not use a CG refinery
in the atmosphere of the planet. if something went wrong you lose the
refinery and the maybe the crew and workers.
Instead I would place it either 1 in orbit or 2 on a moon in orbit. Heck
maybe you'll have a moon with large water content and not even have to skim.
then all you have to do is have maneuver tugs take the full containers out
to the rendezvous with the tanker. switch out full for empties switch out
crews. and then do a fast turn around (if business where that good 8P)
For the cost of a few tankers say 2 or 3 the planet could open itself up for
a lot more trade with those systems that where a L O N G ways away. Now you
position 2 or 3 tankers coming from the other end. and this should more than
handle your fueling of this station. split the costs between planetary
governments and add a nice imperial funding to it (can we say US highway
type funding) get a few of the local corporations behind it and bang it
would be a pretty good bet it would happen.
Basically your recreating the fueling stops the Old China Clippers use to
use to fly across the pacific in the hey day of the old flying boats. they
did a very similar service as our far and free traders do. ferried
passengers, freight, and mail across the ocean.
Hasta
Me
- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Davenport [mailto:rgd@ohio.voyager.net]
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 11:11 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
On 14 Feb 2001, at 10:08, William Lane wrote:
> next i would build me a refinery or collection station at my fuel source.
it
[snip]
> already exist. Some are designed to to have small skimmers skim gas giants
> and collect unrefined fuel which is the delieved to the tanker which in
turn
> transports to a refinery. Some are designed to just transport IE the
> detachable pods mentioned above.
What kind of semi-stationary facilities are/could be used to improve
the collection of unr.fuel from a system's gas giants? Has anyone
designed any? (I'm thinking of low-orbiting facilities with either
large scoops extended down into the atmosphere [if feasible]; or CG
facilities sitting the upper reaches of the atm. with small craft to
shuttle fuel containers to more amenable distribution locations.)
Rob D.
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Canis meus id comedit. -- My dog ate it.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:52:27 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
It has always been my "impression" that Fartraders and Free traders where as
common as Semi tractor trailors are on the Highways and roads of the US.
I would be willing to bet that the amount of actual trade in general in a
secotr alone would be quite large and that planets would be importing and
exporting as much as possible.
i bet Economics wont be to far different than what we see here in the RW.
Obtrav: the party are hired by the Sector government to do an analysis of
trade patterns of far traders.
- -----Original Message-----
From: hal@buffnet.net [mailto:hal@buffnet.net]
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 11:48 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Hello Rob,
I suppose that the governments could have indeed, subsidized other ships.
There are rules for government subsidized 400 ton ships, why not Jump-2
ships in general, or even Jump 3 ships? I have not as yet bothered to see
just how many ships are required to run an interstellar empire. I suppose,
if someone wanted to use GURPS FAR TRADER to determine the cargo tonnage
that has to be shipped on a weekly basis, and then determine just how many
ships are needed assuming that each ship carries 90% of its cargo hold with
full cargo, I think then we will know how many traders there are etc.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:03:31 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Traveller and Hal...
Hello Larsen,
>Hal,
> I'm sorry but I haven't been following the thread too closely and don't
>know the numbers exactly, but did you figure in the 20% class discount?
>
>
> Larsen
Nopers, just 10%. I've been away from Traveller for so long, despite the
fact that I collected most of the books and such. I never bothered with
the adventure suppliments or such (except for TCS, Broadsword, and the
suppliments like Traders and Gunboats and the Ships of the Imperium).
Since most of what I do is in GURPS these days, diving back into CT is
almost a new thing for me <chuckle>. In any event, I will likely start
looking at various things such as an upgraded X-boat route for my next
campaign. Since I have the Milieu Zero survey, I can now start trying to
build X-boat routes for the entire Imperium based on speed rather than star
ports. I will also start designing Jump-3 and Jump-4 X-boats so as to
optimize some of the locations in the Imperium. Why use Jump-4 x-boats
when a Jump-3 would be cheaper?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:10:32 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Hello Peter,
>Yes, of course. That notion was in my original comments.
>You have to apply that analysis to all ships. Don't you
>do this?
Nopers, I don't bother with the inclusion of the 20% down payment in ships
when I analyze their cost effectiveness - never thought to. In general, I
look at things from the operational point of view once the ship is up and
operating. One reason why I never bothered is, I suspect, because players
who start the game with a ship get it as a result of mustering out. In
GURPS, you just pay the points to start with the ship. Either way, it has
been rare for players to not start with a ship.
>Yes but those were both using CT nook 2 rules, most newer Traveller
>ship design systems will produce a jump 2 ship costing less than
>twice as much as an otherwise identical jump 1 ship.
Generally speaking, I used to use the HG book as well. As I mentioned
earlier in another post (see Traveller and Hal), I've been away from
Traveller for a while now. The last campaign (excluding my Blue Lightning
campaign a few years back using GURPS TRAVELLER) was done using TNE. Prior
to that, it was something like 7 years ago since I ran a GURPS/TRAVELLER
fusion, and before that, about 1980 since I was involved in a CT campaign
(there were mini-campaigns in there too, but not many).
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:02:55 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
If i remember the stories correctly beena while since i have read them.
(time to dig my copies out again 8) )
the hani where not drugged during jump. however they where in a dream like
state for the duration of the jump say a week. They did not leave their
seats on the bridge or what ever. I seem to remember Pyanfar talking about
her Shedded fur right after a jump and wishing for a bath.
Tulley (i think his name was could be wrong) would be sedated before a jump.
i remember refrences to this.
i always ran my aslani much like the hani. i really liked the hani.
anyway is what i remember.
Hasta
- -----Original Message-----
From: Larsen E. Whipsnade [mailto:grote1731@hotmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 11:51 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
"Actually, I thought that the Hani were much more mobile in jump than
the humans?"
Mr. Mooney,
I believe the Hani could jump without being drugged prior to it.
Humans had to be sedated some what, although other portions of Ms. Cherryh's
novels seem to ignore or find ways around this.
Both species did suffer from jump lag afterwards though.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:10:52 -0800
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Hull jump grids
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Steven Hudson" <shudson@lightspeed.ca>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 7:50 PM
Subject: re: Hull jump grids
> ...
> > What is the TML concensus on MT's hull jump grid? Is it a best
avoided
> >gaffe like the jump fuel ruling, or is it pretty much accepted?
>
> Oh, for ghod's sake, please have the courtesy to yell "fire in the
> hole" or something equally helpful before sending a post like this!
>
> <CT/> It's a gaffe, with no basis in _real_ Trav </CT> :)
>
>
Keyboard kill! A delayed action one. I read it, didn't get it, took a
drink of coffee, got it.... SPLORT! Thank you, too much.
Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor
Next year, at Burning Man!
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:32:31 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: What is earths Diameter?
Does anyone know what earths Diameter is?
also what is our moons diameter?
thanks 8)
Hasta
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:45:26 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
On 14 Feb 2001, at 14:31, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> >What kind of semi-stationary facilities are/could be used to improve
> >the collection of unr.fuel from a system's gas giants? Has anyone
> >designed any? (I'm thinking of low-orbiting facilities with either
> >large scoops extended down into the atmosphere [if feasible]; or CG
> >facilities sitting the upper reaches of the atm. with small craft to
> >shuttle fuel containers to more amenable distribution locations.)
> >
> >Rob D.
>
> Houston <pssst, where the heck is Houston?> - we have a problem. The
> contragrav plates experienced a severe malfunction when one of the drunken
> skimmer pilots rammed us from below. This station has been experiencing
> intermittant grav plate failures and is sinking to the gas giant's surface.
> All crew have abandoned the platform and are watching as it disappears
> from sensor range. I've undertaken the novel approach of leaving the
> transmitters online and open - broadcasting until the until it can't any
> more. I never thought that the sound of a crumpling hull would sound so...
> human.
:)
So you see it as too risky to put a station into low orbit or high
altitude position? I'm positing a sufficiently robust CG tech by
*some* tech level (prob. between 13-16) to make the risk low enough
that a highly automated/lightly-manned station is more economical
than a parade of fuel skimmers - at some point the risk would be
less than or equal to what is acceptable for the fuel skimmers.
I envision a large station with huge fuel collection
ports/scoops and processing plants that gather and refine the fuel
and pop it up in containers to a higher orbit for collection/
distribution. (The degree of automation vs. risk level is a TL thing
I'd think.)
But what kind of station could be designed (FFS?) I wonder?
(my FFS is at home) How much could it produce vs. a fleet
of skimmers (and what are the risks of skimming? Boring as dirt?
I see it as fairly hazardous, getting that close to huge gas giants
with storms in their atmospheres blowing hundreds of km/hr (IIRC), and
harsh EM environments as well (though less a problem by that TL).
Rob D.
p.s. Nice description there, Hal. Scary.
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Tam exanimis quam tunica nehru fio.
I am as dead as the nehru jacket.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:52:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Population stuff
Hal writes:
>>>I've asked around about alternative methods of chemistry that achieves the
>>>same goal of photosynthesis, and the answer I got was that there weren't
>>>any...
>>Uhmm, I think you'll find that life around deep sea vents ("black smokers")
>>is not sustained by photosynthesis (several km under the sea you don't get
>>a lot of light or any other EM radiation for that matter) but a process
>>known as chemosynthesis. Unfortunately, I don't know enough to say how
>>it works (presumably its some form of chemical reaction), but it is quite
>>capable of sustaining life.
>The lifeform you seem to be talking of is one that lives off of sulfur. It
>also survives in near boiling temperatures, from which it derives its energy.
There are bacteria that "live off" sulphur, which is to say they get
energy from chemical reactions that involve sulpher. I am aware of
no organism that gets chemical energy from heat energy (though
one might posit an organism that gets chemical energy from a
temperature difference). Two typical sulphur reactions that provide
enough energy to be useful to living organisms are:
2 H2S + O2 -> 2 S + 2 H2O
2 S + 3 O2 + 2 H2O -> 2 H2SO4
Organisms that use these reactions are called chemoautotrophs
("chemical self-feeders") or lithotrophs (rock-eaters"). As has been
posted, there are other inorganic reactions that yield chemical
energy for certain organisms:
2 NH4 + 3 O2 -> 2 H2No2 + 2 H2O
2 NO2 + O2 -> 2 NO3
2 H2 + O2 -> 2 H2O
2 Fe2+ + 2 H+ + O2 -> 2 Fe3+ + H2O
Chemical energy thus gained may then be used to drive the various
reactions necessary for life.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:56:03 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
On 14 Feb 2001, at 19:35, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Mr. Davenport,
Unfortunately, the look-behind-me-for-my-Dad reaction is fading as
my sons grow up and their friends come over and address me as that
(though, being only 6, it's more often "Hello, Craig's Dad").
> Many years ago, a gaming friend of mine proposed, and designed, a huge
> +100KdT sphere with a 1 gee manuever drive, fuel scoops and purifers, a
> minimal bridge and computer, stateroom, and nothing else. He "parked" this
> "Beach Ball", as he called it, in a very elliptical orbit around a gas
> giant. During it's closest approaches, it passed through the giant's
> atmosphere filling up. A single burn put it back inot it's orbit.
> During the other portions of it's orbit, smaller insystem vessels
> arrived to tank up. He actually worked out the time periods and all.
> Whether this type of thrust assisted skimming orbit can actually be done is
> beyond my experience. There are many "orbital mechanics" here who could
> comment on this, however.
I'd love to see the stats on that. Or I'll have to fiddle with it
myself. I wonder if the stresses would be worse being in a very low
orbit / high-atmospheric position for long periods, or making repeated
dives into the gg. But I'm mostly curious about the production
capacity - if large enough, wouldn't a system of this or similar
arrangement be the norm (for those systems with gas giants and no other
more convenient source of unrefined fuel)?
> This same fellow also started toying with a large mass driver (like
> what were described to operate in the Bowman system in "Belt Strike")
> orbitting a gas giant moon. The driver "slingshotted" unmanned skimming
> barges through a gas giant at certain times and on certain vectors. The
> barges had scoops and purifiers, and were collected by small chase vessels
> when they returned to the moon's vicinity.
Ooh, I never got "Belt Strike", now I've got the urge to haunt eBay for
a copy... :)
> I don't know if he ever worked out the math with this one. It seems to
> me that you'd need very many barges to keep the "pipeline" flowing.
I'm reminded of RAH's "Moon is a Harsh Mistress" (IIRC), popping grain
shipments from the moon to the Indian ocean (et al.?). Perhaps the
'barges' could be unpowered containers (and the flight parameters
carefully controlled) to make them cheaper.
Rob D.
- --
Rob
Contrary to popular belief, Unix is user friendly.
It just happens to be selective about who it makes friends with.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:56:06 -0600
From: "Dave McKenna" <DMcKenna@Charter.net>
Subject: RE: What is earths Diameter?
> Does anyone know what earths Diameter is?
12,756.3 km
> also what is our moons diameter?
3476 km
http://www.nineplanets.org/
Check out appendix 1b (http://www.nineplanets.org/data1.html).
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:01:39 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: How a Densitometer Works
Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com> wrote:
> Tod Glenn writes:
>
> > Couldn't one calculate density based on volume and generated
> > gravitational pull (with the mass that is implied)?
>
> Sometimes. I don't think there's any way to tell the difference
> between a hollow sphere and a solid sphere of the same mass, for
> example. A gravity map will give you a very general shape telling you
> roughly where the density is high or low, but the resolution is very
> low.
Actually, I can see one way of doing this. If you can scan one
small segment at a time, then moving in from the edge to the
center of the sphere density reading will change for a hollow sphere
(assuming the walls are of constant thickness), while they will be
uniform for the solid sphere of the same mass.
Of course, being able to do such preceise scans implies either
some form of narrow scanning beam (my preference) or possibly
some method of highly direction mass detection (like a directional
antenna). Small grav fields in the detector that damp out all mass
reading except those from one particular direction might work, but
are close enough to magic that I'll stick to the scanning beam idea.
Comments?
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:04:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Boarding craft
Tod Glenn writes:
>Quick question for the list.
>If one were using small, high speed armored vessels as boarding boats to
>seize an not fully disabled ship, and said vessels managed to make hull
>contact, could they be safely engaged by the victim shipps gunnery? (i.e.
>how far can main gun depress). And are there dead zones on a ship's hull
>where it cannot reach with it's own weapons?
I would imagine so, though if the target ship is still capable of
maneuver it would likely be impossible to get into and stay in such
a dead zone.
>I ask because it seems to me that a ship need not be fully disabled in order
>to be boarded, so long as a reasonable amount of damage has been done, and
>the ship can be 'cut out' from any supporting vessels.
If the defending ship could still maneuver, simple tactics such as
imparting
a spin and then maneuvering at random should make it well nigh
impossible to board. I assume that weapons firing under typical ship
combat conditions (CT) actually fire much more often than the one good
shot that is rolled for, but at point blank range I allow firers to
roll to hit
more often. Thus, at <1 km a single laser turret could fire every 6
seconds
(and target specific parts of a ship). This tends to make getting
very close
to an active armed ship hazardous.
>I should be relatively easy (and cheap) to build high acceleration, well
>armored limited duration boarding craft that could fasten lamprey-like to
>the ships hull in dozens of disparate locations. The area around the attach
>point would be softened up through the use of 'infinite-repeaters' (IMTU),
>high rate of fire projectile launchers whose purpose is th create spallation
>on the inner side of the hull to kill crew.
>The boarding vessel world then cut an entry point through the hull (or
>hatchway) and proceed with the boarding action. By using a large swarm of
>these boarding vessels, there would be a multitude of points for the crew to
>defend, while still fighting the ship.
>Thoughts?
Special gizmos might make it possible, though still difficult, to board
an active ship. I would expect this to involve high impact ramming.
That could be exciting! I will stick to restricting boarding actions to
disabled ships, if only because the expected rarity of these actions
precludes the design and construction of specialized vehicles IMTU.
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:06:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: How a Densitometer Works
sneadj@mindspring.com writes:
> Actually, I can see one way of doing this. If you can scan one
> small segment at a time, then moving in from the edge to the
> center of the sphere density reading will change for a hollow sphere
> (assuming the walls are of constant thickness), while they will be
> uniform for the solid sphere of the same mass.
I meant gravitationally. I don't think its possible only detecting gravity fields.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:24:22 -0800
From: Roger Sanger <rodge@nwnexus.com>
Subject: J. Paul Getty's Clone (was real life suspended animation)
> Ian Ferguson wrote:
> If you don't mind my being inquisitive, how might someone clone Mr.
> Getty
> under these circumstances?
Assuming the corpse has been buried (rather than cremated), all you'd have to do is
exhume the body and extract some intact DNA. They are working on this technique to
bring species back from extinction, ala Juraisic Park. Some cells decompose slower
than others, and DNA in certain cell types may remain intact for centuries. Humans
aren't yet extinct, so finding a suitable host isn't a problem (to rivive a species,
you pick a host as compatible as you can, for example, using an elephant's egg to
house the DNA from a mastadon, and then impregnate an elephant with the egg).
Currently, you need more than just the DNA to make a clone -- you need an intact cell
nucleus (or a whole cell). But give them time; within another decade or two, they'll
be able to handle DNA directly much more effectively than they can today.
But there is another problem. Unfortunately, if you use just the DNA (or a nucleus
with the DNA in it) to inject into the donor egg, the telomeres on the DNA of the
clone will be the same length as those of the donor specimen, just like Dolly the
sheep (she looks young, but her cells will stop dividing about the same time as her
parent). So J. Paul Getty's clone would in some ways be as old as the man was when
he croaked. To correct this, you could take a cell from this first generation clone
(while it is a zygote), and insert the cell whole into a new host egg (that has had
its nucleus removed). This, an application of the whole cell injection technique
discovered by ACT, should reset the cell's telomere length to be even longer than the
original! They are not sure yet whether such clones will be longer lived than the
original species, but they have 6 calves (cloned using this method from an adult
non-clone cow) which they will be watching closely in this regard.
The insertion of an entire cell into a host egg cell is a major breakthrough in
cloning science. It forms the basis for therapeutic human cloning (THC), the source
of fresh youthful totipotent cells (with reset telomere lengths) which can
theoretically be differentiated into any type of cell in the body. They don't know
much yet about how the differentiation process works, but they are working on it!
BTW, telomeres are the strands on DNA which serve as an aging clock to tell the cell
how many times it can divide. The more times a cell divides, the shorter the
telomeres become. When the telomere runs out, the cell stops dividing. This is the
cause of the phenomenon known as the Hayflick Limit (Hayflick discovered that human
cells divide about 50 times and then no more -- it has emerged as one of the major
obstacles to curing the aging process).
Eternal youth is just around the corner, and it looks like fairly soon (within 100
years) we'll have anti-aging and rejuvenation treatments far more effective than the
anagathics of science fiction. In the meantime, stop-gap measures are becoming
available to extend life by more conventional means, so that some of us may even be
around in 100 years to take advantage of more effective genetically-based
breakthroughs when they takes place.
Food for thought,
Rodge
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 13:32:14 -0800
From: Roger Sanger <rodge@nwnexus.com>
Subject: Therapeutic Human Cloning (was Freezing, cloning, etc.)
> Kelly St.Clair wrote:
>
> >CRTs will render this practice obsolete fairly soon. Totipotent cells
> >harvested
> >from zygotes are typically injected into the bone marrow of the patient, from
> >where they migrate to other parts of the body, where they differentiate into
> >specialized cells. Note, they don't have to migrate far to become marrow
> >cells!
>
> For 'zygotes', read 'embryos'. Or, better yet, 'fetuses' or 'unborn
> babies' (I don't go this far, but many others do). Then you will see
> why, far from rendering the issue of "harvesting children" moot, it takes
> it to a whole new level. And one that will only heat up as both the
> science and the median age of the population continue to advance.
Actually, it snips it in the bud. Even you admitted above to being able to
differentiate. A zygote is not a fetus, nor an unborn baby, nor a person at all.
There is a fine line between what constitutes a clone of you and what constitutes
the original YOU. But it is a line that can be drawn. You can take most cells and
divide them in a petri dish, and there would be no question that they are still
your cells. But, put the whole cell in an egg first, to alter the cell slightly,
and some people get nervous. The only difference here is that you are modifying
your cell before letting it divide; it is still YOUR cell. The next obvious
advancement in the technology is, once they figure out how and why the cell reverts
to its totipotent state, they'll discover a means to revert cells to totipotency
without the use of an egg cell, rendering the entire objection irrelevant.
Now let's approach the issue from another angle. If you return cells to the donor
before they have differentiated, then no harm is done to anybody, because a new
"body" (person) does not yet exist. There is no organism (with it's own brain
cells, no nerve cells, no skin cells, etc.) in the petri dish. Just totipotent
cells. And where do they get the first totipotent cell from which this culture is
grown? From the patient! So, if you needed new brain cells (not implying that you
do, of course), the doctors would scrape a cell off your inner cheek, insert it
whole into an egg cell (such as the egg cell of a cow), and your cell would
miraculously revert to its totipotent state. It still belongs to you. It is still
your cell. Then they let it divide a few times in a petri dish, before the clump
starts to differentiate into a clone (i.e., before it becomes a clone), and then
inject your cells back into you -- into your bone marrow, from where they travel to
wherever they are needed in the body, such as to your brain, where the totipotent
cells could differentiate into new neurons (this treatment is still in the early
experimental stages). You have used your own cells, not the cells of anybody
else. Your cells used to be in a totipotent state. There is no reason why you
shouldn't be allowed to return them to that state for medical purposes.
> If I had half the talent of Jonathan Swift, I would pen another Modest
> Proposal, in which surplus babies (Irish and otherwise) are put to the
> noble use of extending the lives of Respected Elder Citizens, while those
> of merely adolescent age - say, fifteen to fifty years - are required to
> work without pay to maintain Social Security funding at an acceptable
> level. Oh, and revoke their suffrage, too. Can't have uneducated
> youngsters with no life experience voting on Important Matters.
If a totipotent cell traveled to your brain, and then started forming into a fetus,
I guess it would prove your point (aside from giving you a screaming headache).
But it doesn't happen that way. The totipotent cell would change into a brain
cell, and become an integrated part of your brain. You've basically just
transformed a cheek cell into a brain cell.
> ObTrav: There's probably a world out there like this, with or without
> anagathics of the Imperial type.
Were you aware that we have anagathics of the Imperial type already? It's
potentially as effective as the anagathics in Traveller (which seems to peak out at
about 150). We don't know yet how effective this drug is on humans, but with it
they have pushed the maximum life span of rats to the equivalent of 140 years for a
human. Those waiting for the human trials to be completed will be dead long before
the trials are over (though the participants may not be dead for another 100
years). And the drug is available on the open market, right now. Well, on the
open market of other countries, that is; our market (in the USA) isn't as "open" as
it used to be.
> And IIRC, Mr. Sanger, the intent behind mummification was the same as
> crionics: ritualized preservation of the body for a rebirth in the
> afterworld.
Except that in cryonics the preservation isn't ritualized, it's a medical
procedure. And it's not the afterworld the patients are concerned about, it's this
world. And even if the intent was the same, the means makes all the difference in
the end result.
> The brain was removed because it was considered non-essential,
> much like the blood in today's frozen Pharoahs being replaced by other
> fluids.
But the "consideration" and the reality were not the same thing. As I said above,
the means makes all the difference; the difference being the effectiveness of
preservation. For us, a cure may be just around the corner, and our cryocorpses
can afford to wait (they aren't changing a bit). Mummies turn to dust.
> The trappings of the ritual change, but the human desire to elude
> death is eternal as death itself.
Yes, and where there's a will, there's a way.
Food for thought,
Rodge
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3669
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3670
Date: | 2/14/01 3:29:21 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 14 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3670
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Boarding craft
RE: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Sparrows...
RE: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Boarding craft
re: Hull jump grids
Free Bonus Prize
Re: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Deep Space Jumps
Re: What is earths Diameter?
RE: What is earths Diameter?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3667
Re: Deep Space Station construction
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:52:41 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>From: hal@buffnet.net
>Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>>Is it more economic to buy 20 dtons of fuel at these rates, and take about
>18 days to get the cargo to
>>port in a jump-1 ship, or to ship it in a jump-2 ship ?
>
>Remember: in the bad old days of CT, you did not earn your income by the
>distance travelled, you earned it by the jump. Paying three times the fuel
>cost for two jumps and freeing yourself up for 1 additional jump was
>cheaper than making three jumps to reach your destination.
>
Ah, if we are going to use those brain-damaged freight rules, then I'm out of the debate.
>True - but the Jump-2 ship has less cargo space to make a profit with.
>Remember:
>
>Jump 1 200 ton traders have 82 tons of cargo space and costs 37.08 Mcr. A
>jump 2 version of said ship would only have 82-5-20-1-3 or 53 tons of cargo
>space. The difference was ascertained due to the difference between Jump 1
>drive and Jump 2 drive, tankage to handle the jump, extra computer space,
>and extra power plant space. How much does a "Far Trader" Cost? First
>problem of a Far Trader versus the Jump-1 Trader is that they don't get to
>use the standard hull.
>
>Ship Design of Far Trader using CT book 2 rules:
>
>Hull 200 tons at .1 Mcr per ton (non-standard hull) 20 Mcr
>Streamlined in order to get unrefined fuel: 2 Mcr
Dont streamline. If we are using this rules set, I want an unstreamlined rock-hull.
>Type 2 Computer for Jump two programs: 9 Mcr 2 tons
Use a 1bis
>Type B jump drive, B power drive, A manuever Drive: 40 Mcr 23 tons
>Bridge 1 Mcr 20 tons
>Fuel Tanks 0 Mcr 60 tons
>10 staterooms 20 Mcr 40 tons
>20 low berths 1 Mcr 10 tons
>Cargo space 45 tons
>- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>Totals 93 Mcr 200 tons
>
>Such a beast only has what amounts to 45,000 Cr income potential plus
>staterooms versus the Jump 1's 82,000 Cr plus the *same* staterooms.
>Looking at it strictly from the fuel cost problem?
Nope, looking at it from a point of view that lets us charge twice the price to take the cargo (including
biofreight) twice the distance.
Of course, if you are using the completely fucked Cr 1000 per jump freight rates, then this does not
apply.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 11:30:13 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Boarding craft
> Adding fuel for thought?
>
> What if those boarding craft were accompanied by fighters with the
> Targeting program permitting them to silence turrets?
Cool
>
> I would also suspect that boarding actions between ships that can manuever
> would be highly difficult in that you couldn't match vectors easily. I
Actually, I'm thinking that the boarding craft would have very high
maneuverability and acceleration (at the cost of duration). They might use
chemical or nuclear (NERVA) engivne. One range was closed, the computer
would take over, or perhaps even grappling lines could be fired, allowing
the assault boat to winch itself 'down' to the target ship in the same way
helicopters are winched down to the deck of their carrier in rough weather
or bad seas. The pilot only need to maintain thrust against the grappled
ship to prevent being rammed. Hey, Grappling!
> would likely make it a contest of piloting skills where you would subtract
> your opponent's skill from your skill when rolling on the evasions
manuever
> versus the closing manuever. Failure on both side's count as an automatic
> "damage" roll as if a weapon had hit and no boarding possible. Failure on
> the evader's side means that you have boarding without damage. Failure on
> the boarder's side means no boarding.
>
> As a secondary thought? If boarding were that difficult to achieve,
> perhaps Battle suit trained assault forces might tether themselves outside
> the hull. Specialized grappling weapons might be employed on the surface
> of a ship's hull to fire grappling hooks and ropes at the target. Under
> optimal conditions, the battlesuit untethers itself, and grabs the
> grappling hook - praying that he doesn't get a Moby Dick hell ride from
his
> intended victim...
Interesting, but of limited range. And you have to have a boat for a proper
'Nantucket sleigh ride'.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:08:18 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
On 14 Feb 2001, at 11:47, William Lane wrote:
> Well,
>
> if you place a refinery say on a moon or in orbit of the gas giant you could
> feasibly use the 200 ton surplus free traders to skim the fuel for delivery
> to the refinery. as for lowering scoops not sure the gear heads would have
> to say weather that would be possible. if done right your tanker carrying
I'm sure it would require some fairly advanced materials technology to
have scoops (almost?) continuously dangling down into the atmosphere of
a gas giant. Are there any design rules for something like this?
(assuming the TL is sufficient, is it feasible/economical?)
> the fuel back and forth would actually just be picking up fuel from the
> refinery that would also be supplying the system or some portion of the
> systems resources.
>
> really if you get down to it a lot of this is the basic infrastructure that
> is going to exist already your just tapping it to help supply another base
Exactly - it's just trying to flesh out existing/assumed infrastructure
a little; especially in the case of a system where gas giants are the
only feasible source of unrefined fuel.
> with fuel this one out side system. Personally I would not use a CG refinery
> in the atmosphere of the planet. if something went wrong you lose the
> refinery and the maybe the crew and workers.
Even if the CG tech was robust enough to give a risk equal to that of
sending in skimmers? Sure you risk the Titanic syndrome and if you
lose one skimmer, it's better than the whole plant, but it just seems
to me that getting a production source in continuous contact with the
raw material would be likely to have a greater output capacity. Maybe
for some governments (3I or not) it's worthwhile.
Or maybe a number of smaller in-atmosphere CG factories would spread
the risk around closer to that of the skimmers but with greater output.
Or go the carryall(?) route of Dune - dump the factory into the
atmosphere for a certain amount of time to fill up it's large tanks,
possibly processing the fuel at the same time, then either leaving
(dunking instead of skimming I guess) or being assisted out by a more
powerful tug. Just some things that are bouncing around in my brain
this afternoon.
> Instead I would place it either 1 in orbit or 2 on a moon in orbit. Heck
> maybe you'll have a moon with large water content and not even have to skim.
Ideally, I'd think, yes.
> then all you have to do is have maneuver tugs take the full containers out
> to the rendezvous with the tanker. switch out full for empties switch out
> crews. and then do a fast turn around (if business where that good 8P)
>
> For the cost of a few tankers say 2 or 3 the planet could open itself up for
> a lot more trade with those systems that where a L O N G ways away. Now you
> position 2 or 3 tankers coming from the other end. and this should more than
> handle your fueling of this station. split the costs between planetary
> governments and add a nice imperial funding to it (can we say US highway
> type funding) get a few of the local corporations behind it and bang it
> would be a pretty good bet it would happen.
I agree - and that just goes to your point of it describing what is
probably already assumed infrastructure. But some very good ideas,
though!
Would the 3I assist in such trade-enhancing local endeavors?
> Basically your recreating the fueling stops the Old China Clippers use to
> use to fly across the pacific in the hey day of the old flying boats. they
> did a very similar service as our far and free traders do. ferried
> passengers, freight, and mail across the ocean.
Interesting, I'll have to read up on them. Thanks.
Of course the idea of comparing the China Clippers and the Pacific made
me wonder if you compared the 3I to present day Earth, what place on
Earth would be most like the Spinward Marches, or Core, or Sol?
(Ideally, with a good place to compare to, other facets of life in that
place might illuminate life in the corresponding place in the 3I.)
Would the Spinward Marches compare to say the far Pacific islands and
nations?
It's not likely there are good matching places to compare, but what can
I say, it's late in the afternoon... :)
Rob D.
- --
Rob
'We are born naked, wet and hungry. Then things get worse.'
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:15:02 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Sparrows...
> Which kind? American Tree, Baird's, Belding's, Black-chinned,
Black-throated,
> Botteri's, Brewer's, Cassin's, Chipping, Clay-colored, Eurasian Tree,
Field,
> Five-stripped, Fox, Gambel's, Golden-crowned, Grasshopper, Harris's,
> House, Le Conte's, Lincoln's, Large-billed, Nuttall's, Rufous-crowned,
> Rufous-winged, Sage, Sharp-tailed, Savannah, Song, Swamp, Vesper,
> White-crowned, White-throated, or Worthen's?
>
> ...and that's just the western United States. FYI, the flight speed of
the
> common N. American House Sparrow ranges from 5 to 39 mph. (Did I
> mention that, among other hobbies, I'm also a bird watcher?) :^)
I can recognize Starlings, since I've been encouraged to shoot them by every
farmer I've ever met.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:19:13 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
"I'd love to see the stats on that."
Rob,
It was a HG design, so I'll trot out my copy of HGS and whip one up. I
do remeber he'd argued for reduced crewing status because the m-drive was
only used briefly to restore the elliptical orbit after the skimmering
pass."
"This same fellow also started toying with a large mass driver..."
"Ooh, I never got "Belt Strike", now I've got the urge to haunt eBay for
a copy... :)"
It's okay, some very interesting District 268, Darrian, Sword Worlds,
and Marches history are in it, along with a detailed and seedy asteroid
settlement. I'm sure that Mr. Rancke-Madsen good fill you in on the history
slant.
The mass drivers are only mentioned in passing. LSP has several
facilities in the system (they're is trying to get it classified gov't code
1) and uses them to pass bulk cargos between them.
"Perhaps the 'barges' could be unpowered containers (and the flight
parameters carefully controlled) to make them cheaper."
His were essentially cylinders with a mini-power plant and purifier.
He was still trying to figure if the plant and purifier were cost effective
or not, and the number of them he'd need. I don't know if he every finished
the math though.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:23:48 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Boarding craft
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Ian Ferguson" <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
To: <traveller@ient.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 12:04 PM
Subject: RE: Boarding craft
> >seize an not fully disabled ship, and said vessels managed to make hull
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> I would imagine so, though if the target ship is still capable of
> maneuver it would likely be impossible to get into and stay in
such
> a dead zone.
Note, I didn't suggest a fully capably ship, only that it might still have
some abilitiy of (limited) maneuver and fire
> >I ask because it seems to me that a ship need not be fully disabled in
order
> >to be boarded, so long as a reasonable amount of damage has been done,
and
> >the ship can be 'cut out' from any supporting vessels.
Re read the above
> If the defending ship could still maneuver, simple tactics such as
> imparting
> a spin and then maneuvering at random should make it well nigh
> impossible to board. I assume that weapons firing under typical
ship
These kind of maneuvers will also have some effect on the offenseive fire of
the ship, particularly when firing at short range targets
>
> >I should be relatively easy (and cheap) to build high acceleration, well
> >armored limited duration boarding craft that could fasten lamprey-like to
> >the ships hull in dozens of disparate locations. The area around the
attach
> >point would be softened up through the use of 'infinite-repeaters'
(IMTU),
> >high rate of fire projectile launchers whose purpose is th create
spallation
> >on the inner side of the hull to kill crew.
> >The boarding vessel world then cut an entry point through the hull (or
> >hatchway) and proceed with the boarding action. By using a large swarm
of
> >these boarding vessels, there would be a multitude of points for the crew
to
> >defend, while still fighting the ship.
> >Thoughts?
>
> Special gizmos might make it possible, though still difficult, to
board
> an active ship. I would expect this to involve high impact
ramming.
> That could be exciting! I will stick to restricting boarding
actions to
> disabled ships, if only because the expected rarity of these
actions
> precludes the design and construction of specialized vehicles
IMTU.
>
But boarding's half the fun!
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:30:56 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Hull jump grids
>From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: re: Hull jump grids
...
>I actually rationalise the two (CT lanthanum coils and MT lanthanum
>hull grids) as follows:
...
>standing off a meter or two. This addition allows increased drive
>performance and efficiency, and is one of the reasons higher levels
>of jump are attainable.'
OK, but doesn't that get perilously close to being logically the
sort of "unique engineering innovation" that makes drop tanks an
item of undefined TL in most debates?
Steven Hudson
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:31:10 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Free Bonus Prize
Any of y'all with JTAS subscriptions are invited to check out Ogguengan, my
first-ever-published, undoubtedly future Pulitzer prize-winning article in
this week's issue:
http://jtas.sjgames.com/current.html
Loren didn't want the map I made of the planet, which is unsurprising
considering my non-existent drawing skills. I thought I'd make it available
as a bonus for the TMLers, though...anyone who's dying to see what Ogguengan
looks like is welcome to download the GIF I stuck on my own web site:
http://www3.sympatico.ca/pauldrye/Ogguengan.gif
Size is about 150k for those with slow connections. Comments and critiques
on the article (but *not* my amateurish art!) are welcome....
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:32:04 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> >What about your return on the Cr 6,570,000 you used as a down
> >payment on this ship.
> If you go that route, then you have to include it in *every*
> comparison between ship hulls and jump drive abilities. <grin>.
Yes; basically it doesn't make a lot of difference as it is pretty
much fixed as a proportion of the cost of the ship. Instead of (say)
5% per year of the total cost of the ship, you consider that you could
have got an extra 0.5% of the total cost of the ship per year with
alternative use of the deposit. So an overall 5.5%/year of ship value
instead of 5%.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:43:58 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
>Exactly - it's just trying to flesh out existing/assumed infrastructure
>a little; especially in the case of a system where gas giants are the
>only feasible source of unrefined fuel.
Well agian this is an assumtion i would make. lets take the Sol system and
say that this is the system from which we are sending our tankers. Now i
firmly believe that you would have Some form of Aseriod Mining going on. i
would also assume that your Low and nil G ore refining or manufaturing would
be going on here also. now lets say that we put our refinery on Io around
jupiter. now we have the posability (based on latest finding from Galileo)
that there is an ocean under its crust. even if not we use out small
freetankers to skim of Jupiter.
we refine this fuel on Io now. the corporations who are funding these mining
operations are going to want to stay as productive as possable so the
contract out from Exxon (our fuel refinery) to provide them fuel at
refueling points along the Asterpoid belt or maybe to the farther reaches of
the system. So again our Fuel containers are ferried around system dropped
off and picked up. this is all very much like the gas truck who pulls into
the gas station he empties the truck into the tank. then the customers empty
the tank.
it would seem to me that having a refining station set up on say Jupeter and
Saturn would (with the difference in orbital periods provide a great way of
supplying the outer systems fuel requirments with out having to send your
ships back to eart or skim up un refined fuel. Everything i read says that
Refined is always much prefered over unrefined. Again if that is the case
the corps are going to want as little down time as possable.
For example on Earth the major mining corperations have these big Cat 777
deasil trucks each one witha capacity of 120 tons or so. (cant remeber the
exact numbers been a while since i worked at cat so if im off please
forgive.) Now if one of these machines goes down they lose about a million
dollars an hour it is down. so they are extremly careful on maintenance and
fueling they make sure these pieces of equipment are in tip top shape. i
think you would see something simular to this with a mining operation on an
asteroid.
I agree - and that just goes to your point of it describing what is
probably already assumed infrastructure. But some very good ideas,
though!
>Would the 3I assist in such trade-enhancing local endeavors?
God why would they not. They would ahve a lot to gain by doing this sort of
thing. Encouraging financial growth of a region will do nothing but help
grow the empire. if i remember correctly the US highway system was created
for 2 purposes.
1 to provide a fast way for military units to move across country
and
2 to facilitate Interstate trade.
> Basically your recreating the fueling stops the Old China Clippers use to
> use to fly across the pacific in the hey day of the old flying boats. they
> did a very similar service as our far and free traders do. ferried
> passengers, freight, and mail across the ocean.
Interesting, I'll have to read up on them. Thanks.
>Of course the idea of comparing the China Clippers and the Pacific made
>me wonder if you compared the 3I to present day Earth, what place on
>Earth would be most like the Spinward Marches, or Core, or Sol?
>(Ideally, with a good place to compare to, other facets of life in that
>place might illuminate life in the corresponding place in the 3I.)
>Would the Spinward Marches compare to say the far Pacific islands and
>nations?
>It's not likely there are good matching places to compare, but what can
>I say, it's late in the afternoon... :)
Well i dont know if any place really would recreate the Spinward marches.
that said however out side of the fact that they are planetary systems what
you have is a series of govenments in control of their chunk of territory.
they are part of a larger alliance. they can and do regulate the traffic
into and out of their areas and systems. i think the closest you could come
would be simply the US.
Why do i say this. well lets break it down.
i would see it this way
Imperium = US
Sector = State
System = City
All have their own law enforcement.
Each has its own rules governing commerce.
and the truck drivers AKA Free traders must abide by them all.
and before you throw out the tech levels out. not every city or town has a
all the comforts of some of the big cities.
Also you could almost classify Truck tops in a town as a Starport. and youll
find that in some small towns in the US the Truckstop is a huge cash cow. so
you got a low tech low population agricultural area with a class A truckstop
8P Sort of goes to the heart of another thread i saw yesterday 8P
truth is i bet you could compair the Imperium to almost anything and im
sorry for being long winded.
Hasta
me
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:52:25 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
>even if not we use out small
>"freetankers" to skim of Jupiter.
Hot dog i just realised i just came up with a new term 8P "Freetanker"
Woot! chalk one up for me 8P
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 00:04:27 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: What is earths Diameter?
Dave McKenna wrote:
> http://www.nineplanets.org/
>
> Check out appendix 1b (http://www.nineplanets.org/data1.html).
This is perhaps one of the most useful astronomy sites I've seen.
Lovely!
How about adding this one to the FAQ?
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:05:32 -0700
From: Cliff Linehan <clinehan@sfamipec.com>
Subject: RE: What is earths Diameter?
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 12:32:31 -0800 From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
>Does anyone know what earths Diameter is?
>also what is our moons diameter?
The following information was found at http://tcaep.co.uk/index.htm
Planets - Earth
Bulk Parameters
Mass 5.9736 × 10^24 kg
Volume 108.321 × 10^10 km^3
Equatorial Radius 6378 km
Polar Radius 6356 km
Volumetric Mean Radius 6371 km
Core Radius 3485 km
Ellipticity 0.0034
Mean Density 5520 kg m^-3
Surface Gravity 9.78 m s^-2
Escape Velocity 11.186 km s^-1
GM 0.3986 × 10^6 km^3 s^-2
Bond Albedo 0.385
Visual Geometric Albedo 0.367
Visual Magnitude -3.86
Solar Irradiance 1360 W m^-2
Black-Body Temperature 247.3 K
Moment of Inertia 0.3308 I MR^-2
Topographic Range 20 km
Orbital Parameters
Semimajor Axis 149.6 × 10^6 km
Sidereal Orbit Period 365.256 days
Tropical Orbit Period 365.242 days
Perihelion 147.1 × 10^6 km
Aphelion 152.1 × 10^6 km
Mean Orbital Velocity 29.79 km s^-1
Orbital Inclination 0.00 °
Orbital Eccentricity 0.0167
Sidereal Rotation Period 23.9345 hours
Obliquity to Orbit 23.45
Atmospheric Parameters
Surface Pressure 1014 mbar
Surface Density 1.217 kg m^-3
Scale Height 8.5 km
Average Temperature 288 K
Diurnal Temperature Range 283 K to 293 K
Surface Wind Speeds 0 to 100 m s^-1
Mean Molecular Weight 28.97 g mol^-1
Nitrogen N2 78.084%
Oxygen O2 20.946%
Water H2O 1%
Argon Ar 0.934%
Carbon Dioxide CO2 0.035%
Neon Ne 18.18 ppm
Helium He 5.24 ppm
CH4 1.7 ppm
Krypton Kr 1.14 ppm
Hydrogen H2 0.55 ppm
Satellites
Moon
Moon's Gravitational Acceleration 1.619 m s^-2
Moon's Mean Density 3.33 × 10^3 kg m^-3
Moon's Mean Distance from Earth 3.844 × 10^8 m
Moon's Mean Mass 7.33 × 10^22 kg
Moon's Mean Radius 1.738 × 10^6 m
Clifford Linehan
http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller
Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:19:57 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3667
> Government has "sovereign immunity," which means that without it's
consent
> > it can't be sued. This is waived in many cases to allow suits against
> > governmental entities of many kinds - at least in the US.
>
> And in the OTU we have sovereign individuals.
>
There's a big difference, since corporations are creations of law
("artificial persons" in legal parlance, as opposed to "natural") while the
state is the source of this law. Imperial law grants its citizens the right
to incorporate (hence the designation LIC) so it could include the implied
consent to be sued.
>
> See my notes on the subject, based on the constitution in Milieu 0, at:
> http://portcaddo.com/bloo/traveller/
>
Yeah, I dig that page, by the way!
> Many dismiss Milieu 0 and that's fine. My picture of what the Imperium
> does regarding law is different. In short it's:
> - Screw with trade and we'll smack you.
> - Deal in Slaves and we'll shackle you.
> - Engage in Piracy or use Weapons of Mass Destruction and we'll shoot
you.
> 'Course, you don't need courts for that.
>
A good lawyer could come up with some creative definitions of slavery,
piracy and (especially) restraint of trade. That's what you need a court
for, to decide if the legislature said what the lawyer says it said.
>
> You can't afford to let important member worlds have screwy trade rules
that
> make things difficult for business. No one cares about the pissant worlds
as
> long as they pay their taxes and don't make trouble. That's why for the
> important
> trading worlds I've always thought there would be a parallel to the
Uniform
> Commercial Code with Noble oversight, probably with minor variations
between
> sectors. The UCC was essentially written to codify the ways in which
businesses
> had found it was easiest to operate - which is distinct from how most
large
> areas of law are written. Most states of the US have adopted it, many
with some
> variations, some with none.
>For the Imperium's big trading worlds, I can easily see how those
> member worlds might be leaned on to adopt a similar code so that business
can
> have a predictable foundation.
>
That was the pre-emption idea I suggested. Anything that doesn't square
with the Imperial code gets thrown out.
> If what Michael says is correct, and it has a certain appealing elegance
> to it, it would then matter what the local government's law code was like.
> In regions where the local government is propped up by a Megacorp - it
> would be bad news to have to deal with it.
> Adding onto Michael's comments - I would suspect that any issues
> involving transportation of an interstellar nature would likely follow
> Imperial Guidelines. From what I remember reading (Miliue Zero perhaps?),
> local governments may not enact laws that interfere with interstellar
> trade. By inference, this also means any laws that hurt interstellar
trade...
>
As long as there is a line between hurting trade and not, there will be
courts (and lawyers) to argue both sides of it.
> Hal
>
Buffnet, huh? I practiced law in Bflo for a year or so before I moved
south. I tend not to miss it this time of the year.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:26:10 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Station construction
Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote:
>
> Have that planetoid prepped for use, hollowed out or whatever to get
> the mass down.
Mass is pretty much irrelevant to transportation cost. In fact, you'd
probably get better off hollowing it out in-situ, so as to be able to
use the removed material to enclose more volume, or extract metals
(and oxygen) from it.
> Start sending ice comets on a regular cycle as a fall back water
> supply for the base station, more for the fuel you can get than the
> drinking water.
Has anyone else noticed that water, methane, and ammonia are all much
easier to handle and have higher hydrogen density than liquid H2?
About twice as high. So unrefined fuel is much more transportable
than refined. What's more, they are all readily available from
natural sources.
So in effect, all my calculations of the costs of shipping fuel 2
parsecs by fuel tanker should be roughly halved. Rather than shipping
LH2 (along with the handling problems it entails) at 700 Cr/dton of
LH2, it is better to ship methane, water and/or ammonia at a cost of
350-400 Cr/dton of eventual LH2.
An added bonus is having most of the bulk chemicals required for life,
so (with appropriate technology) you could probably synthesis at least
some carbohydrates, fats and probably proteins if external food and
water supplies were expected to be a little shaky. With good
bioengineering you might even be able to feed and grow an ecosystem
with a small but steady flow of the raw materials, using excess
hydrogen to run a fusion reactor providing the necessary light and
heat. I suspect you'd also need a sulphur source though, as well as a
reasonable supply of trace elements (transportation cost trivial).
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3670
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3671
Date: | 2/14/01 7:00:19 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Wednesday, February 14 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3671
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3667
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Landmine clearing...
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: boarding actions
Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
RE:HELP!!!
re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Weather in Buffalo
Re: A Secret History of Jump Drive [long]
RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Re: Missing Digests
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Re: Question from merchant prince.
Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Re: Deep Space Jumps
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 15:30:27 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3667
Michael Daumen writes:
> A good lawyer could come up with some creative definitions of slavery,
> piracy and (especially) restraint of trade. That's what you need a court
> for, to decide if the legislature said what the lawyer says it said.
Not necessarily. You only need such a setup if you want the law to be applied
in a fair and impartial manner. The imperium has 'government of people, not
of laws', which might mean that if the local duke thinks you're guilty of
slavery, you're guilty of slavery (and if the grand duke or emperor thinks
the duke is abusing his power, the duke gets removed). This is actually a
rather traditional form of government.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:36:47 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Rob Davenport wrote:
> What kind of semi-stationary facilities are/could be used to improve
> the collection of unr.fuel from a system's gas giants? Has anyone
> designed any?
Gas giants will almost certainly have moons. Moons will almost
certainly have large to huge amounts of water, methane, and/or
ammonia. Plonk a refining facility on one of the moons and you have
access to all the fuel you could ever want without doing dangerous
stunts such as diving into a gas giant's atmosphere.
One very big advantage: you don't need extremely reliable thrusters to
keep you from plunging to a crushing death in the depths of the gas
giant.
However, I have designed special-purpose skimmer ships and a refining
and storage space station. I can't seem to locate them at the moment
though -- it's been years since I needed them.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:30:19 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Landmine clearing...
Was written:
>Actually, Dan, it's "SLUFAE (Surface Launched Unit, Fuel Air Explosive.)
It's
>built on an M-113A1 APC chassis and consists of a set of 30 launch tubes
>for 5" (121.8mm) Zuni rockets. Each rocket is equipped with a Pave Pat Blue
>73 fuel air munition warhead. They have a range of 750 yds. Each has a
kill
>radius of 33 ft. for pressure-fused mines and 112 ft. for pull-fused
>trip-wire mines.
>
>They don't work well against bunkers, as they have no real penetration
>strength.
Wasn't penetration that would do the job, it was the instantaneous over
pressure pulse that was conjectured to do the nasty on the human anatomy.
In that regard I had a lady friend, a dual US/Israeli, who was a flight
nurse in Nam and a Mash nurse in Israel. She was with a group of five
medical types in Israel when a concussion grenade was tossed their way.
Three of the five died. She conjectured that she survived because she was
partially shielded by someone who wasn't. Shattered her skull like a jigsaw
puzzle and detached her retinas. She went temporarily blind in the process
of trying to save one of the fatalities. She told me about it after I was
awakened one night to find her trying to revive a pillow in the corner of
the bedroom. Talking to it in mixed Hebrew and English and crying, she was
reliving the experience while sleep walking.
Dan
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:45:00 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
William Lane wrote:
> if you place a refinery say on a moon or in orbit of the gas giant
> you could feasibly use the 200 ton surplus free traders to skim the
> fuel for delivery to the refinery.
There will almost certainly be tons of fuel *on* a moon -- no need for
skimmers.
> Heck maybe you'll have a moon with large water content and not even
> have to skim.
Yes -- unless the only gas giants are too close to the star, the moons
will very likely have lots of hydrogen compounds. I think it
extremely unlikely for a system to completely lack any large icy
bodies. Moons around gas giants would merely be likely places to find
*huge* ones. How much ice is there on Callisto, do you think?
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:18:13 +1100
From: Rob <rhoughto@one.net.au>
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
>
<snip>
>
> Gamers are "my tribe" regardless of where in the world they happen to live.
As lond as they don't vote you out of the Islands...old or new....
Other Rob
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:23:17 +0000
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
Of course in a surgical amputation...
The last thing you can have is "cooked meat"... er.. tissue at the
distal end of the limb. In the procedure any such tissue would have to
be excised prior to closing the wound.
my .02cr
Doug C. (EMTP, BTLS-I)
Robert O'Connor wrote:
>
> Larsen Whipsnade wrote :-
> > The trainers told us that 1000+ PSI superheated steam had enough
> > benefits (immediately cauterizes blood vessels, destroys nerves,
> > etc.) that hospitals would use it for amputations if it weren't so
> > expensive to produce compared to the small amount of amputations they
> perform.
>
> Amputations are a little more complex than just cutting off the damaged bit.
> You need to form a flap to close the cut end of the limb off.
> The steam jet may not be as easy to control as a Gigli saw.
>
> The steam would certainly sterilise the raw end (among other things), but
> the technique would seem to have little or no advantage over traditional
> tools in skilled hands in theatre conditions.
>
> Robert O'Connor
> Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:42:48 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
Tod Glenn wrote:
>
<<snip>>
>
> Somehow, I just knew that you would know the answer to this one, Mark.
>
> But, what is the airspeed of an unladen sparrow, smartguy?
That information is classified:
http://www.af.mil/news/factsheets/AIM_7_Sparrow.html
However, at least one Web site has an unclassified figure of Mach 4+:
http://www.novia.net/~tomcat/AIM-7.html
Hope this helps! ;-)
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:48:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Don Roberts <tne1201@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE:HELP!!!
- --- John Fox <jfox@verity.com> wrote:
> Don:
> There are two comic strips out there that are
> funny (that I know of)
> 1) Freefall
> http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/ffdex.htm
> 2) Schlock Mercenary
> http://www.schlockmercenary.com
>
> John W. Fox
>
> >
> > HELP!!
> > I have been searching and searching. About two or
> > three weeks ago I followed a link from someone's
> > Traveller web page and found a comic strip that
> was
> > being continually updated. It was very funny but
> I
> > can't seem to remember the name of it. It had
> this
> > funny little blue guy and his robot friend as well
> as
> > a female vargr-like creature. I can't remember
> how I
> > got to it and stupidly did not bookmark it. If
> anyone
> > knows what I am talking about and can tell me how
> to
> > find this on the web I would be eternally
> grateful.
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> > __________________________________________________
> > Do You Yahoo!?
> > Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail
> - only $35
> > a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
> >
>
>
Hey,
Wanted to thank you very much. Not only do I love the
"Freefall" Comic but "Schlock Mercenary" is very cool
too. I love it!!! Hilarious!!!
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:51:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Civility and Politeness.
>From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
>Just a quick question - how long does one have to be a
>member of/subscriber to the TML before it is considered polite to refer
>to others by their given names?
It depends on who the "others" are. The relative positions of the people
are what is important; there is no bright line. For example, Traveller
Great Old Ones (TGOO) routinely refer to one another by personal name,
pejorative, or "Hey Penguin-Boy", as they feel appropriate. It would not
be a good thing for a newbie to call a TGOO "Penguin-Boy," especially when
the TGOO is not the one who may be called Penguin-Boy. Of course, a TGOO
may always call a newbie or any other junior person whatever he or she
wants. There are of course as many stages between newbie and TGOO as
there are members of the TML who are not at either stage. You have to be
careful.
Remember that forms of address are used when referred to someone as well
as when addressing that person directly.
TGOO status depends on longevity and publication.
Loren and Marc are above the TGOO category, but are frequently addressed
or referred to by personal name by TGOOs. Those junior to TGOO should
really abase themselves in some way when addressing these august
personages, preferably by typing while kneeling. Newbies should put the
keyboard on the floor and kneel to type. Keep the monitor well above your
head.
Does that clarify or obfuscate?
- --Glenn
Traveller Great Old One
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:14:47 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>Of course, if you are using the completely fucked Cr 1000 per jump freight
rates, then this does not
>apply.
>
>Ian Whitchurch
Hello Ian,
<grinning> I was trying to be nice and not fixate on GURPS TRAVELLER. If I
had my way?
The third Imperium would be abolished as a bad dream and the Emperor would
die in a shuttle crash... (oops, wrong time line).
Seriously: start fresh with all the new rules for planet formation and
such. Get rid of those things that don't make sense. Instead of making it
where one individual creates the Imperium, have a group of people working
on things within the guidelines of the game rules. In a way, a sort of
TRAVELLER 2300 grand game kind of thing.
The economic rules of FAR TRADER are better than the original rules of
CT, MERCHANT PRINCE, or any of the incarnations of TRAVELLER since CT - but
I suspect even those rules aren't totally on the mark.
But if I get to talk about Deep Space Construction using GURPS rules
<rubbing hands together>, then yes, it becomes a whole new ball of wax...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:22:20 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Weather in Buffalo
>Buffnet, huh? I practiced law in Bflo for a year or so before I moved
>south. I tend not to miss it this time of the year.
Hey, if you don't like the weather in Buffalo, wait 5 minutes <wink>
To bad you didn't stick around. One of my friends died of a massive
coronary Nov 9th, and we now have an opening in the gaming group...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:41:23 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: A Secret History of Jump Drive [long]
On Tue, 13 Feb 2001 22:52:32 GMT, TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen
Tempest) wrote:
>
>Or, how one item of technology shaped 10,000 years of human history...
>
>
>This is my attempt to pull together various ideas on jump drive I've
>had (or that I've shamelessly stolen from other posters) into one
>semi-coherent whole. It explains attitudes to deep space refuelling,
>near-c rocks, the shape of the Ziru Sirka, whether the Terrans copied
>jump drive from the Vilani, why the Long Night happened, and many
>other mysteries. It's all IMTU, of course, but I don't think it
>actually conflicts with canon at all, and I hope it may inspire ideas
>in others...
>
>It is written from the point of view of an Imperial historian working
>in 1120...
>____________________________________________________________
>
>The Secret History of the Jump Drive.
>
>(snip)
This is a marvelous synthesis of our recent discussion and will
certainly become a part of MTU if my players should need to look into
that history to this depth.
I am curious, however, about in what way the vJ-1 drive proved to be
"... incredibly reliable, efficient, easy to maintain, and cheap",
despite the fact that the drives required such great amounts of power
that jump dimming was a standard practice with vJ-1 drives.
One possible explanation would be that, though the drives were not
particularly efficient, it was the Vilani power plants that proved to
be the "reliable, efficent, easy to maintain, and cheap" element
rather than the jump drives themselves. Since the power plants
themselves never used the suspect jump theories, the Vilani may well
have had the benefit of those thousands of years of development to
embody a more efficent design than was generally available to others.
With the potent combination of drive and power plant, often sold as a
package for starship usage, this was the system that became widely
deseminated among the Vilani empire.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:03:22 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Dear Folks -
Jesse asked:
>I don't know if there's a print
>reference to looking like a subbie......Anybody have a quote?
"Q-Ships in Traveller" (or something like that) in an early Challenge, #25
or thereabouts.
However, this is more about a Q-ship to _catch_ pirates, rather than the
other way around.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:54:28 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Missing Digests
> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:51:31 -0500
> From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
> Subject: Missing Digests
>
> I seem to be missing Digest #3644 through #3653
Jeff Greenly was kind enough to send the missing digests to me.
Thanks again.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:27:48 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:13:51 -0000
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>
> From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
> "Deep space caches are a militarily usefull ploy that doesn't seem
> to work for civilians."
>
>
> Mr. Shayne,
> While I agree with you in general, I also believe there will be very
> special circumstances in which a government/corporation partnership will
> build and operate one.
<snip>
> GT:Starports says that the Imperium operates most of it's starports
at
> a loss, so why couldn't a local government do the same with a depot?
Mr. Whipsnade,
A very good point. I suppose I was blinded by the classical economics
of it all. A planet that's a little off the beaten path might go to the
trouble
of a deep space refueling point. On the other hand that same planet might
decide to fund a number of higher jump subsidized merchants to shuttle
back and forth. They would then have a guarantee(sp?) of service as well
as ships they could press into service in the event of an emergency.
David Shayne
PS the name is Dave or David. Mr. Shayne is my father.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:09:37 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 02:18:11 -0800
> From: hal@buffnet.net
> Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>
> Hello David,
> >Permit me to point out a few errors.
> >
> >1) You can probably get by with just the one load of Power fuel for the
> >month
> > that adds 10 tons to the payload which helps because...
>
> Good point, I forgot about that. It does add 10 extra tons, but it
doesn't
> really matter in the overall scheme of things. 10 tons is only a small
> percentage of what I indicated earlier.
>
> >3) Civilian opperations usually allow two weeks per jump meaning a
> > true turnaround time of 4 weeks so you don't get to double
> > payload in your calcs.
>
> Civilian schedules permit 1 jump every 2 weeks. I used the same schedule
> for the fuel tender. That is why life support for 3 people was 12,000
> (2,000 per jump per cabin x 3 people x 2 jumps). It takes a matter of
only
> a day to skim the fuel direct from the gas giant. It takes perhaps a day
> to refine it, or even perhaps 3. It doesn't take long to move 100
> planetary diameters away from a gas giant and jump directly to the space
> port. At most, we are looking at something like 12 day turn arounds
> including the jump time. Keeping things simple, I assumed a full 2 weeks
> <grin>.
It's more than that.
1) Ship (fully laden) jumps from fuel source.
Time 6 - 8 days (assume 7 days average)
2) Ship delivers fuel at destination and performs routine safety checks
I can't find a citation for the time to perform safety checks (I think
it's in HG) but I seem to recall several hours. Assuming the offloading
of the cargo is concurrent and lets call this 12 hours.
3) Ship (with enough fuel to jump home) jumps back to fuel source
Time 6 - 8 days (as above)
4) Ship takes on fresh cargo and performs routine safety checks. (12 hours)
For a minimum of 13 days turnaround, a maximum of 17 days, and an average
of 15 days. Plus whatever ammount of time it takes to travel to and from
jump
points. Plus time off for the crew. Plus lots of slack for all of the things
that
can and do routinely go wrong. I'd say 3 weeks is still your best bet for
a sustainable turnaround time with 4 weeks much more likely.
YMMV
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:11:16 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Ahh! I'd forgotten about the Q-ships. I remember either reading that
article or hearing about it, but I wasn't under the impression that it was a
corsair. What they did was take a Subsidized Merchant and make the cargo
bay REALLY nasty....or was that something that one of Mark Cook's characters
did....damn, I can never remember. Oh well ;)
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of
> david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 6:03 PM
> To: traveller@ient.com
> Subject: RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
>
>
> Dear Folks -
>
> Jesse asked:
> >I don't know if there's a print
> >reference to looking like a subbie......Anybody have a quote?
>
> "Q-Ships in Traveller" (or something like that) in an early Challenge, #25
> or thereabouts.
>
> However, this is more about a Q-ship to _catch_ pirates, rather than the
> other way around.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
> http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
> "I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
> of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
> position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:21:05 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Question from merchant prince.
Note: My responses are based on _Fire, Fusion, and Steel_ (2d edition)
for T4.
William Lane wrote:
>
> i was reading merchant price for the rules for cargos and such. I came
> across something i had not remembered form OH so long ago. a refrence on one
> of the pages about Food Synthisers (sp?)
>
> am i reading this right that they have ala star trek food creation
> equipment?
Not in FF&S2.
>
> that brings a new question to my mind how are ships provisioned? I always
> felt that it was sort of like nasa in one way the crews bought special cased
> food and some fresh stuff so they could cook and such.
Type I, II, II, and IV (Minimal, Basic, Standard, and Extended) life
support systems use this technique. Vehicle designers may choose the
quality of rations from the following categories: Emergency, Meager,
Normal, Good, and Excellent. Note that Good and Excellent rations
include fresh foodstuffs, while Normal and below use long shelflife
foods.
if a food synthiser
> exists are these things aboard ships? is it some sort of magic panel you say
> "teal earl grey hot" and end up with a nice cup of tea and drastic hair loss
> all at once?
No and no, although by employing nearly all of a starship's computing
power, one _might_ be able to get the ship to produce a liquid that is
almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea. ;-)
>
> next if these thigns exist what exactly does it use for raw materials.
Type V (Endurance) life support systems do produce food by recycling
available organic materials via biological means. These means range
from algae vats (Type V-a), through agriculture (Type V-b), to
carniculture (Types V-c and V-d).
I suspect that you can figure out what the "available organic materials"
are, but most starship crew and passengers on such ships prefer not to
dwell on the concept. ;-) Note that Type III and higher life support
systems include closed-loop water recycling, which generally involves
removing organic material from waste water, making it potable. Again,
most starship crew and passengers would rather not think about this
process too much.
<<snip>>
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:28:04 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Jesse Degraff wrote:
>
> Ahh! I'd forgotten about the Q-ships. I remember either reading that
> article or hearing about it, but I wasn't under the impression that it was a
> corsair. What they did was take a Subsidized Merchant and make the cargo
> bay REALLY nasty....or was that something that one of Mark Cook's characters
> did....damn, I can never remember. Oh well ;)
AuricTech Shipyards also designed such a vessel. I'll have to check my
archives to see whether I posted it.
<<snip>>
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 02:55:20 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
"On the other hand that same planet might decide to fund a number of
higher jump subsidized merchants to shuttle back and forth. They would then
have a guarantee(sp?) of service as well as ships they could press into
service in the event of an emergency."
Dave,
Very good points in all. The classic jump-1 "fat trader" or "subbie"
are controlled in much the same way. The mortgage holding world or
corporation "chain" the crew to a certain route or cluster while skimming a
percentage of the profits. The crew can "earn" weeks during which time they
can deviate from their assigned route.
Here on Pre-Contact Terra, 8^) , there are similar situations.
Governments subsidize the purchase of large aircraft, with the priviso that
it be liable for "call-up". The US activated several such agreements during
the Gulf conflict.
I am not insisting that there are dozens of these depots in each
sector, perhaps 2 to 4. With the general behavior of megacorporations
within the Imperium, a world might not be willing to place it's entire off
world commerce in their hands. A depot that increases the flow of smaller
jump-1 or jump-2 vessels might be viewed as something worth subsidizing,
even if the total amount of trade they carry isn't as great as the
megacorps' larger, longer ranged vessel.
The "Starship Operator's Manual" seemed to imply that the crews of
"subbies" aren't quite a canny when it comes to trade as free traders (the
crews, not the ships). While building "subbies" might be part of the
world's plan, I believe enticing new peoples and cargos to the world would
be a way to "grow" your trade.
The current enthusiasm for some other posters here about constructing
actual starports in deep space is not shared by myself. I envision a far
more simple affair; chunks of "ice-teroid", a modular habitat for a refinary
and crew, perhaps some researchers, and a patrol craft of some sort on duty.
Visiting vessels would be able to refuel, maybe at "cost", perhaps life
support spares, and help with navigation. Most ship's with within hours of
their "topping off" and drive checks.
I hope to run a few GT:Far Trader numbers over the next two weeks, if
work allows. Hopefully, I'll be able identify a few systems where a depot
could break even.
Oh, it's Bill or Larsen for me. Thank you.
Larsen
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3671
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3672
Date: | 2/14/01 11:54:38 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Thursday, February 15 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3672
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Deep Space Jumps
FFS versions; Bilandi for dummies
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
RE: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions +Modular Cutter)
RE:HELP!!!
I hate to leave, but...
Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Re: Boing
Q ship design
Alternative ways of boarding
RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Re: Q ship design
RE: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter)
Re: Boing
Re: Landmine clearing...
Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Nasty cargo bays...
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
RE: Forms of address: a rebuttal
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 03:07:09 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
"2) Ship delivers fuel at destination and performs routine safety
checks I can't find a citation for the time to perform safety checks (I
think it's in HG) but I seem to recall several hours."
Dave,
I dug through the materials I have on hand and your memory is very
good. In the "Traveller Adventure" section dealing with the Oberlindes -
March Harrier trade war attack on the Arekut depot, a time frame of "several
hours" is mentioned while the newly arrived ships shift fuel stores and test
jump drives.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:07:37 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: FFS versions; Bilandi for dummies
Two questions from a relative newbie -
Which incarnations of Traveller are Fire, Fusion & Steel 1 or 2 for? Is
this a revision like HIgh Guard 2 or something different?
While I'm at it, if "Ziru Sirka" means "Grand Empire of the Stars," what
does "Naasirka" mean?
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:11:59 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Other Rob wrote:
> <snip>
>
> >
> > Gamers are "my tribe" regardless of where in the world they happen to live.
>
> As lond as they don't vote you out of the Islands...old or new....
Oh, geez. I wasn't even thinking of "Survivor", never having seen the show.
I think my choice of the word "tribe" was influenced mainly by the gaming
scene in Neal Stephenson's _Cryptonomicon_.
- -RB
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:20:07 -0800
From: "Tsykoduk" <tsykoduk@bigfoot.com>
Subject: RE: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions +Modular Cutter)
Oh wow..
I _really_ liked the Corsair..
Yah know, you make me wish that I accually had an artistic bone in my body
:)
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Gordon Hundley
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 10:02 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions
+Modular Cutter)
on 14/2/01 4:41 pm, Jesse Degraff at jedegraf@cisco.com wrote:
> Since the Cutter book got delayed a bit....
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_news.htm
Oh neat! Is the front inspired by the AH-64?
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:48:14 +1100
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au
Subject: RE:HELP!!!
Dear Folks -
Don asked for:
>HELP!!
>I have been searching and searching. About two or
>three weeks ago I followed a link from someone's
>Traveller web page and found a comic strip that was
>being continually updated. It was very funny but I
>can't seem to remember the name of it. It had this
>funny little blue guy and his robot friend as well as
>a female vargr-like creature.
"Freefall", a very Trav-like comic strip, is located at:
http://www.purrsia.com/freefall/
And don't forget "Schlock Mercenary" at:
http://www.schlockmercenary.com/
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw davidjw@pcug.org.au
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:50:16 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: I hate to leave, but...
...I'm going to be spending a lot of time at sea over the next couple
months as we get ready for our next six-month deployment, so I'm going to
be signing off all my lists this weekend.
See y'all sometime around the end of the year....
James
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:55:53 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:17:21 -0800
> From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
> Subject: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
>
> Go to my news page from my site:
>
> http://www.vision-forge-graphics.com/jesse/traveller/trav_welcome.htm
>
> They are NOT in the gallery, you have to go from the news page ('cause I'm
> too lazy ;)
Great pics as usual.
That corsair is my new wallpaper. (replacing one of your Beowulfs)
Thank you,
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 23:02:59 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Boing
>Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:50:24 +0100
>From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
>Subject: Re: Boing
>
>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> No, but I'm sure there's *something* equally weird that folks at Orycon
>> have done.
>
>In LinCon (Linköping, Sweden), it is (since a few years back) forbidden
>to use the spaghetti served in the dining room to make a Cthulhu
>impersonation...
Is using the linguinni acceptable? : )
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 05:18:15 +0100
From: "Patrik Holmström" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Q ship design
I posted a Qship design to the TML in August 2000.
It's at
http://www.csd.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/
in the startship section or
http://www.csd.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/ships/400dt_qship.html
for a direct link (bypassing frames)
Patrik
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 05:21:04 +0100
From: "Patrik Holmström" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
Subject: Alternative ways of boarding
All this talk of Schlock mercenary reminded me of the alternative method
used in one of their episodes at :
http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20000924.html
Todays featured Schlock mercenary quote:
Conversation between Admiral Breya and Captain Tagon.
- - So what is the difference between man-courage and woman-courage, captain
Tagon?
- - Ummm... We men remembered our weapons?
- - Oh, very good. I started down an armed maniac with no weapons at all,
whereas you men...
- - Opps...
- - ...you *men* waited to make sure that you were all locked and loaded
before doing ANYTHING!!! And you dare slight *my* courage?
- - Ummmm.. Err....Well... We killed him, right?
- - Yes you did. Very bravely. You killed him all over the room and I'm *so*
unimpressed.
- - Schlock Mercenary September 17-19
Patrik
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:24:37 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
David wrote:
>Jesse asked:
>>I don't know if there's a print
>>reference to looking like a subbie......Anybody have a quote?
>
>"Q-Ships in Traveller" (or something like that) in an early Challenge,
#25
>or thereabouts.
>
>However, this is more about a Q-ship to _catch_ pirates, rather than
the
>other way around.
And where do corsairs come from.
converted Q-ships, converted Armored Merchants, military and Megacorp
Commerce Raiders. FEW are purpose built corsairs.
Charles
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 04:28:00 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
>From: "Patrik Holmström" <glappkaeft@hotmail.com>
>I posted a Qship design to the TML in August 2000.
>
>It's at
>http://www.csd.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/
>in the startship section or
>http://www.csd.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/ships/400dt_qship.html
>for a direct link (bypassing frames)
Gentlemen,
Will some one take a peek at this design and comment on it. I am no
longer familiar with FF&S (haven't design a ship with it in +4 years).
I'd like the comment to especially focus on how 400dT ship can mount 2
PAWs, 14 lasers, and 2 PD lasers.
Thanks in advance.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:30:01
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Not your everyday cutter... (was:RE: Boarding Actions + Modular Cutter)
At 12:29 PM 2/14/2001 -0600, you wrote:
>You think its cool? When Jesse sent me the shots of all the cutters he did,
>I was giddy like a school-girl. Its rather spiffy to spend the time
>designing up something - then Jesse turns around, does the images, and I can
>say "YES!!!! That's it!!!!"
That's the feeling I got when I saw the illustrations for GF. Especially
the NPCs. They all looked exactly as I had imagined them.
My favorite is the two Marine trainees crawling through what looks like
thorn bushes with spears.. been there!
>The man is good, that's for sure.
Good is a mild word.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:45:19 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Boing
DaveShayne wrote:
>
> >Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 00:50:24 +0100
> >From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
> >Subject: Re: Boing
> >
<<snip>>
> >
> >In LinCon (Linköping, Sweden), it is (since a few years back) forbidden
> >to use the spaghetti served in the dining room to make a Cthulhu
> >impersonation...
>
> Is using the linguinni acceptable? : )
Probably not, because...
**pun alert**
...those who forget the pasta are likely to repeat it. ;-)
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:55:00 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Landmine clearing...
Daniel Phelps <phelpsd@gate.net> writes:
>From: "
>
> >They don't work well against bunkers, as they have no real penetration
> >strength.
>
>
>Wasn't penetration that would do the job, it was the instantaneous over
>pressure pulse that was conjectured to do the nasty on the human anatomy.
>In that regard I had a lady friend, a dual US/Israeli, who was a flight
>nurse in Nam and a Mash nurse in Israel. She was with a group of five
>medical types in Israel when a concussion grenade was tossed their way.
>Three of the five died.
Were they in a bunker? If so, did the grenade explode inside or outside?
I'll stand by my original statement. For the over-pressure to kill (or maim),
it has to be able to get to you. A nice thick rebar-reinforced, concrete
bunker
does a pretty good job of preventing that. Even if there are (firing)
ports open
to the outside, all the external pressure has to come in focused through those
openings, which dramatically reduces it's strength and, thus, it's lethality.
We were shown (in training) that a simple flat concrete wall between you
and the explosion can (potentially) reduce the force of the explosion from
"fatal" to "unpleasant". As always, it depends on the power of the explosive,
the size/thickness of the barricade and the distances involved. YMMV.
Now flame vortices, those are another story entirely.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:59:01 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>Tod Glenn wrote:
> >
><<snip>>
> >
> > Somehow, I just knew that you would know the answer to this one, Mark.
> >
> > But, what is the airspeed of an unladen sparrow, smartguy?
>
>That information is classified:
>
>http://www.af.mil/news/factsheets/AIM_7_Sparrow.html
>
>However, at least one Web site has an unclassified figure of Mach 4+:
>
>http://www.novia.net/~tomcat/AIM-7.html
>
>Hope this helps! ;-)
Uh, John? Unless those are training shots, they're not *UNLADEN*. :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:02:02 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: RE: Here's why I asked about the Flaming Eye :)
Jesse Degraff <jedegraf@cisco.com> writes:
>Ahh! I'd forgotten about the Q-ships. I remember either reading that
>article or hearing about it, but I wasn't under the impression that it was a
>corsair. What they did was take a Subsidized Merchant and make the cargo
>bay REALLY nasty....or was that something that one of Mark Cook's characters
>did....damn, I can never remember. Oh well ;)
Jesse, all one of my characters has to do to make a cargo bay REALLY nasty
is *sleep* in it! :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:04:37 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Nasty cargo bays...
Jesse Degraff <jedegraf@cisco.com> writes:
>Ahh! I'd forgotten about the Q-ships. I remember either reading that
>article or hearing about it, but I wasn't under the impression that it was a
>corsair. What they did was take a Subsidized Merchant and make the cargo
>bay REALLY nasty....or was that something that one of Mark Cook's characters
>did....damn, I can never remember. Oh well ;)
Actually, maybe you're remembering the time we opened the swimming
pool to space (to repel a boarding party.)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 01:02:28 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 02:55:20 -0000
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
<snip interesting stuff>
> The current enthusiasm for some other posters here about constructing
> actual starports in deep space is not shared by myself. I envision a far
> more simple affair; chunks of "ice-teroid", a modular habitat for a
refinary
> and crew, perhaps some researchers, and a patrol craft of some sort on
duty.
A couple of points to bear in mind.
1) while chunks of ice, or indeed gas giant type planets even, could be
fairly
common in deep space (ie not in the immediate vicinity of a star) they
will probably be fairly hard to find. Sure just keep sending out scout
expeditions
and eventually you'll probably come across one but it could take a while.
This isn't necesarily a stumbling block for your plan but when you throw
this
at your players be sure to have the back story of the expedition that did
find the convenient deep space snowball. (Gotta keep the suspension of
disbelief going strong.)
2) The "modular habitat for a refinery and crew...." is going to look like
a starport (well the highport part of it anyway.) It'll have all of the
features
of the starport except cargo handling facilities and will probably have
more extensive recreation facilities. Think about it. The station crew
are cut off in deep space. No sun. No moon. No planets to shuttle down
to for the weekend. The foosball table has got to get some serious use.
I would expect crews of this (or any facility in deep space) to rotate out
on a monthly basis at least (and perhaps fortnightly.)
> Visiting vessels would be able to refuel, maybe at "cost", perhaps life
> support spares, and help with navigation. Most ship's with within hours
of
> their "topping off" and drive checks.
Since the plan is to encourage trade to start up below cost may be an
option.
Once people become used to buying planet Z's thingamawhatsits the big
boys from the megacorps may come in to the picture in a bigger way.
> I hope to run a few GT:Far Trader numbers over the next two weeks, if
> work allows. Hopefully, I'll be able identify a few systems where a depot
> could break even.
> Oh, it's Bill or Larsen for me. Thank you.
Nice to meet you Bill.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 01:37:40 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Hello David,
>1) Ship (fully laden) jumps from fuel source.
> Time 6 - 8 days (assume 7 days average)
>2) Ship delivers fuel at destination and performs routine safety checks
> I can't find a citation for the time to perform safety checks (I think
> it's in HG) but I seem to recall several hours. Assuming the offloading
> of the cargo is concurrent and lets call this 12 hours.
>3) Ship (with enough fuel to jump home) jumps back to fuel source
> Time 6 - 8 days (as above)
>4) Ship takes on fresh cargo and performs routine safety checks. (12 hours)
>
>For a minimum of 13 days turnaround, a maximum of 17 days, and an average
>of 15 days. Plus whatever ammount of time it takes to travel to and from
>jump
>points.
You did your math right <boinks own head>. It would be 1 week to jump out
of system, plus 1 week return. That works out to a turn around time
minimum of 2 weeks per load not including time for dropping off fuel and
taking on fuel. The free time for the ship's crew could be rotated with a
second crew. One crew on, one crew off. This doubles the wages and life
support for the operation. Hmmmm, may have to look at the operation using
larger tankers.
Day 1: onload fuel at gas giant.
Day 2: manuever away from giant and enter space
Days 3 through 9 jump transit
Day 10: drop off fuel and do checks
Day 11 manuever out and jump
Days 12 through 18 Jump Transit.
Day 19: start process again.
Yuppers, there is a definite flaw in 2 trips a month's worth of revenue.
So prices would have to be raised to 2/1.55 (ie 2 jumps flawed versus 1.55
jumps actual) times as much. 1500 for refined fuel would now run 1935 give
or take...
Just ball park of course <grin>.
Time to head back to reality...
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:50:57 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Frank G. Pitt wrote:
> Douglas E. Berry wrote :
> > At 10:02 PM 2/13/2001 +1300, you wrote:
> > >> Dare I ask. I'm not sure TML members should be interbreeding.
> > >Hmm, Kenji Aradia Berry anyone ?
> > >(apologies to those named and their significant others)
> > Why apologize? After all, I *am* married to Kiri. :)
> I disctinctly remember you mentioning a "Kirsten" at some point.
> Or is bigamy acceptable over there now ?
Isn't polygamy acceptable in the liberal US?
B-)
- --
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<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 09:12:01 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
On Wed, 14 Feb 2001, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Ms. Morgan's musings that I am simply following the standards of
> politeness found outside the US are correct. In my career, I have worked
> with many people from widely varying cultures.
"Outside the US" is a quite generalizing concept. B-)
The Finnish language has two forms of address. I do no know the terms in
English, but these are (almost) the same as "tu" and "vous" in French.
(The Finnish basic words are "sinä" ja "te", and "te" is also the plural
for addressing many people. "Te" could be compared with English "you".
Still, the point of this is that while "te"-addressing is considered more
polite, I wouldn't imagine saying that to people. Perhaps the Finnish
State President, and some older people, who expect it. Also, I might use
it in very formal situations, when speakin in public and such, but I would
be very confused if someone would insist that for example in workplace.
(Yes, even if the CEO came over, if my company had one. I am going to be
employed by the Metsähovi radio observatory, and being an academic
research facility it is very informal. B-)
Of course there are some places where formal address is needed. The
military was one place.
> Sometimes, I have been a
> bearer of bad news, or have had to correct their precepts or opinions, or
> other such "ticklish" duties. I have found that sincere politeness,
> combined with empathy, a firm handshake, and a shoeshine, all go a long way
> towards smoothing over any potential problems.
This is very true. Extra politeness never hurts.
Still, I am usually very in my addressing polite only when I am very mad
and realize that yelling is not going to help.
> Because I treat those around me politeness, it is almost always
> reciprocated. This phenomena even extends to store clerks and others in the
> service industry. I have seem to have far fewer problems moving through the
> world than my friends do.
Politeness is very good. Still, it would sound (at least to me) very
strange if someone would call everybody by "Mr. This" and "Ms. That".
(I would probably get used to that quickly.)
Of course, when I speak German or French this is just normal, and I would
not call people by their given names. B-)
> Please be sure, I am not some patsie or push over because I am polite.
> I will insist on correct service from clerks for instance, but I will do so
> with civility.
That is an attitude which could be more prevalent. Many people yell at
clerks and such, while they know that the poor clerk can't do anything
about it.
- --
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<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 21:51:52 -0800
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
- -----Original Message-----
From: Russell Bornschlegel <kaleja@estarcion.com>
>Other Rob wrote:
>> <snip>
>>
>> >
>> > Gamers are "my tribe" regardless of where in the world they happen to
live.
>>
>> As lond as they don't vote you out of the Islands...old or new....
>
>Oh, geez. I wasn't even thinking of "Survivor", never having seen the show.
>I think my choice of the word "tribe" was influenced mainly by the gaming
scene in Neal Stephenson's _Cryptonomicon_.
>
My handle on "The Rules" boards was "Waiting for Goto Dengo" for like, over
a month. It was interesting to see who on those boards (relationship
discussion boards, mostly inhabited by women) knew what the joke was.
Kiri
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:50:20 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Forms of address: a rebuttal
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Russell Bornschlegel [mailto:kaleja@estarcion.com]
>Sent: 14 February 2001 18:34
>To: traveller@lists.ient.com
>Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
>
>
>Larsen E. Whipsnade, or someone else of the same name, wrote:
>>
>> >From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
>> "Just a quick question - how long does one have to be a member
>> of/subscriber to the TML before it is considered polite to
>refer to others
>> by their given names?"
>>
>> Mr. Rowse,
>> If I may hazard a guess in this situation, the polite
>form of address
>
>In a strange reversal of the sort that geeks tend to promote,
>I sometimes
>use honorifics with people I'm _very_ familiar with -- my
>boss-and-coworker-
>of-7-years, for example, and get the same thing in return.
>Silly English
>accents in this context are optional:
>
> "Mis-tahh Morgan!"[6]
> "Yes, Mis-tahh B!"
> "When you get a chahnce, I would like to go ovahh this bug
>report with
> yew!"
> "Very well, just allow me a few moments to dispose of this
>blue ferret!"
> "Ferrets are not blue, Mis-tahh Morgan!"
>
Sounds more New England to me :). Did you later have Clam Chow-dah for
lunch?
Dean
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3672
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3673
Date: | 2/15/01 7:35:29 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Thursday, February 15 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3673
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3671
RE: Hull jump grids
RE: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: FFS versions; Bilandi for dummies
Re: I hate to leave, but...
Re: Q ship design
Re : Life and reddish suns (was : Population Stuff)
Re : Therapeutic Human Cloning (was Freezing, cloning, etc.)
Re : Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re : boarding actions
RE: Hull jump grids
RE: Boing
RE: Boing
RE: Boing
RE: instructions
Re: FFS versions; Bilandi for dummies
Re: Re : Therapeutic Human Cloning (was Freezing, cloning, etc.)
Re: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Boarding craft
Re: Q ship design
RE: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Q ship design
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:21:30 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3671
>
>Does that clarify or obfuscate?
Yes.
MJD
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:18:48 -0000
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Hull jump grids
Just to add my 5c worth (here in Australia we abolished 1c and 2c coins some
years back)
Didn't Marc Millar write an article in JTAS in which ships had a hull jump
grid? wouldn't that make it canon as it is from him.
All praise to the great one.
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:18:49 -0000
From: "Antony Farrell" <Skaran@bigpond.com>
Subject: RE: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Sink me, but who did his cravat?
Customs and Etiquette of the Imperial Court
How about some examples.
Like be careful who you walk through, they may not be a hologram.
Antony
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:41:11 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: FFS versions; Bilandi for dummies
Michael Daumen wrote:
> Which incarnations of Traveller are Fire, Fusion & Steel 1 or 2
> for? Is this a revision like HIgh Guard 2 or something different?
FFS2 is for T4 (Marc Miller's Traveller)
I believe FFS1 is for TNE
They are design systems, but rather different from HG if I've understood
things correctly. A lot more technical.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:46:33 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: I hate to leave, but...
James Gilly wrote:
> ...I'm going to be spending a lot of time at sea over the next
> couple months as we get ready for our next six-month deployment, so
> I'm going to be signing off all my lists this weekend.
>
> See y'all sometime around the end of the year....
*waves*
(pun intended)
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:52:18 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> Will some one take a peek at this design and comment on it. I am
> no longer familiar with FF&S (haven't design a ship with it in +4
> years).
> I'd like the comment to especially focus on how 400dT ship can
> mount 2 PAWs, 14 lasers, and 2 PD lasers.
Nice and violent design. A battery of medium strength weapons, and the
crew to use them. Not much more really. That's how ;-)
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:13:36 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Life and reddish suns (was : Population Stuff)
Bloody Outlook (I'm having stability problems with Netscape).
Posted the same post twice.
I wrote :-
> Chlorophyll has a peak at 7 micrometres.
The absorption peak is actually at 700 nanometres, or 0.7 micrometres. I had
an acute episode of innumeracy.
Hal@buffnet.net wrote :-
> The key here would be "how much energy"? Specifically, could you get
> those energy levels in the output of the M class star?
and
> there is a formula for calculating the peak output of a star.
> According to what I read, the peak output of M class stars were *way*
> low.
The wavelength at which most of a star's energy is emitted is given by
Wien's Law :-
wavelength (nanometres) = (3 X 10^6)/(temperature in Kelvin)
As a star (any blackbody) gets cooler, the proportion of its energy emitted
in the longer wavelengths increases.
If the planet is in the life zone for the star, there should be enough
infrared and red light to sustain photosynthesis and a reasonable climate.
Tidal braking of rotation will occur ; the question is how much?
Mercury is ~5 billion years old and still manages to rotate, for ex.
As Tim Little has posted, it's not a big deal.
> 2) photosysnthesis is not the only method of converting environmental
> energy into life sustaining energy.
Heck no.
The lists posted by Ian Ferguson and myself cover a whole range of
alternative substances which could be substrates. Ian's are used by bacteria
in all sorts of exotic environments. Some of mine are speculation based on
the chemical properties of the compounds mentioned.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:13:42 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Therapeutic Human Cloning (was Freezing, cloning, etc.)
Roger Sanger wrote :-
> Were you aware that we have anagathics of the Imperial type already?
> It's potentially as effective as the anagathics in Traveller (which
> seems to peak out at about 150). We don't know yet how effective
> this drug is on humans, but with it they have pushed the maximum life
> span of rats to the equivalent of 140 years for a human.
Whoa!
Caloric restriction is the only modality I am aware of for which there is
good evidence for increase of longevity.
There are the usual tentative reports with the typical gamut of
anti-oxidants and hormone receptor blockers, which have been popping up
since the 1950s.
I would be *very* interested to see your references so that I could review
them myself.
Note that telomeres are only part of the problem (referring to an earlier
post of yours).
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:13:49 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Kelly St. Clair wrote :-
> If I had half the talent of Jonathan Swift, I would pen another
> Modest Proposal, in which surplus babies (Irish and otherwise) are
> put to the noble use of extending the lives of Respected Elder
> Citizens, while those of merely adolescent age - say, fifteen to
> fifty years - are required to work without pay to maintain Social
> Security funding at an acceptable level.
Problems with this dystopia are several :-
i. Spinrad's 'Bug Jack Barron' notwithstanding, organs from infants and
children are useless for adults, purely from size differences. Other tissue
(blood, bone marrow) could be harvested. The logistics of bone marrow and
stem cell harvesting with the current state of the art make this a difficult
exercise unless society has dramatically different priorities to modern
Western ones.
ii. Given (i), adult citizens of 'adolescent age' could be required to
donate on death, as per the Spanish system, provided that there are no
contraindications to donation (e.g. disseminated malignancy or systemic
sepsis).
I agree that very heavy taxation on this group could be necessary to fund
the maintainance cost of the gerontocracy. It is more likely that a group of
very rich oldsters would be pulling the strings, extrapolating from today's
real world distribution of wealth.
iii. How much is life expectancy going to be extended by organ
transplantation, given the current state of the art?
* Why do we transplant organs ?
Organ Typical Pathology Survival with Trans Survival Without
Kidney Diabetic nephropathy 90% at 5 years* 80% at 3 years(1)
glomerulonephritis
Heart Cardiomyopathy, 90% at 1 year 15% at 1 year(2)
ischaemic heart dis. 75-80% at 5 years
Lung Emphysema, pulmonary 75-90% at 1 year 25% at 1 year(2)
fibrosis, cystic fib. 60% at 3 years
Liver Alcoholic cirrhosis, 80% at 1 year 20% at 1 year(2)
hepatic cancer, 60% at 3 years
cirrhosis from hepatitis
Pancreas Diabetes, pancreatic 60% at 1 year 20% at 1 year
failure (misc. causes)
Intestine Inflammatory bowel 60% at 1 year 15-20% at 1 year(2)
disease, short bowel
Bone Leukaemia, aplastic 5-90% at 5 years ~0 at 1 year(3)
marrow anaemia, thalassemia
major
* with modern immunosuppression regimes, over 50% should survive 10 years.
(1) Home haemodialysis
(2) Assumes maximal medical therapy
(3) With the exception of thal major, uniformly fatal without chemotherapy ;
probability of disease recurrence over 5 years 0.25-0.75.
I have not considered bone, heart valve and corneal grafting. Valve grafting
is obviously going to have the greatest impact on life expectancy.
* How often do transplants happen?
Currently this is dependent on donor rate.
An OECD average would be approx 10 per million population per year.
Spain has the highest rate, at 27 per million per year ; Greece the lowest
at 7.
On average each donor provides 2 solid organs.
The demand still outstrips supply by a factor of two, on average ; for
heart-lung transplantation, three patients are waiting for every one that
receives a transplant.
Increasing donor rates is a major problem across the world.
* What are the most common causes of death?
Is organ donation of any use?
A typical breakdown for developed countries is as follows :-
[yes, I know it doesn't add to 100% ;-)]
Cardiac disease 30%*
Malignancies 22%(1)
Cerebrovascular disease 12%
Respiratory disease 9% (emphysema, pulmonary fibrosis, etc.)*
Injuries, accidental 5%
Suicide 5%
Other circulatory disorders 4.5%*
Diabetes 2%*
Dementia 2%
Infectious diseases 0.9%
* possible benefit from organ transplantation
(2) Haematological malignancies are less than 10% of this group.
Given that death rates are about 9 per 1000 pop. per year, we're looking at
a demand of about 4 per 1000.
This is a lot greater than the current level of demand of ~30 per million,
and 15 per million for surgery performed.
Given that the cost of surgery ranges from US $50-150K, with the cost of
immunosuppression US $5-10K/year, I don't think the system would be
sustainable with current technology levels without an enormous increase in
health care funding.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:15:54 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : boarding actions
Doug C. wrote :-
> Of course in a surgical amputation...
> The last thing you can have is "cooked meat"... er.. tissue at the
> distal end of the limb. In the procedure any such tissue would have
> to be excised prior to closing the wound.
>
> Doug C. (EMTP, BTLS-I)
I wrote :-
>> The steam would certainly sterilise the raw end (among other
>> things), but the technique would seem to have little or no advantage
>> over traditional tools in skilled hands in theatre conditions.
I'm well aware of the need for generous debridement with the typical
traumatic amputation. At least the steam would reduce the risk of post-op
infection a little.
Dr. Robert O'Connor
(an Anaesthesia/ICU trainee)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:49:08 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Hull jump grids
Larson wrote:
> What is the TML concensus on MT's hull jump grid? Is it a best
> avoided gaffe like the jump fuel ruling, or is it pretty much
> accepted?
Okay, IMTU I use MT hull grids (then jump sort of looks like
"starburst" from the TV series Farscape). However, my
battletenders (for battleriders) have the CT open frame look (as
opposed to the MT flying hanger look). To achive this I have a
design sequence mod filched off the net that breaks down jump
drive into its components, thus battleriders carry integral hull
grids but all other jump components are in the tender.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:58:24 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Boing
>
>
>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> No, but I'm sure there's *something* equally weird that
>folks at Orycon
>> have done.
>Jens wrote:
>In LinCon (Linköping, Sweden), it is (since a few years back) forbidden
>to use the spaghetti served in the dining room to make a Cthulhu
>impersonation...
Linköping has it's own con?! When's the next one?
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:47:15 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: RE: Boing
On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Jones, Dean wrote:
> >Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Linköping has it's own con?! When's the next one?
May 23 - May 27
http://www.sverok.se/lincon/
There isn't much information on the pages...
Hm, Linköping seems to be so near that I might consider attending. It
would be a good reason to practice my Swedish. (Nej, jag kan inte
rollspela i svenska. B-)
(And, there is always Ropecon, http://ropecon.roolipeli.net/ August 10 -
August 12. Espoo, Finland.
This year's foreign guest is N. Robin Crossby. WWW pages are a bit more
not done than LinCon's).
- --
+++++++++[>+++++++++<-]>-.<+++++[>+++<-]++>++.<++[>++++<-]+>+.<++[>----
<-]>-.>+++[>++++++++++<-]++>++pare@iki.fi<+[>++++<-]>+.->+[>++++[<<--->
>-]<-]<.>>+++++++[<++++++++++>-]++++[<+++++>-]<-.>[-]>+++[>++[<<<---->>
<>>-]<-]<<.+.>[-]++[<++>-]<.++.[-]>[-]++++[<++>-]<++.>>++[>++[>-<-]<--]
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:49:02 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Boing
>
>
>On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Jones, Dean wrote:
>> >Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Linköping has it's own con?! When's the next one?
>
>May 23 - May 27
>
>http://www.sverok.se/lincon/
>
>There isn't much information on the pages...
>
>Hm, Linköping seems to be so near that I might consider attending. It
>would be a good reason to practice my Swedish. (Nej, jag kan inte
>rollspela i svenska. B-)
>
Hmm, although I don't speak Swedish I puzzled out the meanings of rollspela
(from my scanty knowledge of German) and svenska (common sense) :)
OB-TRAV: Anglic is the common language for the 3I, but surely there are
local ones too. How closely related are they?
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:03:32 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: instructions
Quite. One should bear in mind that, mistranslations aside, cautionary
instructions are there to protect idiots who will do those things if not
instructed not to.
Dean
>
>In mail you write:
>
>> 5. On a New Zealand insect spray = This product not tested
>on animals.
>
>That's merely a marketing item. They didn't use animals to test the
>product for *safety*. Which makes a big difference to some folks.
>
>> 10. On a Sears hairdryer = Do not use while sleeping
>
><sigh> caused by a stupid customer doing exactly that, then suing.
>
>> 20. On a Swedish chainsaw = Do not attempt to stop chain with your
>> hands or genitals.
>
>I don't even want to *know*.
>
>> 24. On packaging for a Rowenta iron = Do not iron clothes on body.
>
>Because some idiot *tried*.
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:31:53 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: FFS versions; Bilandi for dummies
On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 22:07:37 -0500 daumen@mindspring.com (Michael Daumen)
wrote:
>Two questions from a relative newbie -
>
>Which incarnations of Traveller are Fire, Fusion & Steel 1 or 2 for? Is
>this a revision like HIgh Guard 2 or something different?
FFS1 is for TNE, FFS2 is for T4.
>While I'm at it, if "Ziru Sirka" means "Grand Empire of the Stars," what
>does "Naasirka" mean?
"Buying the stars wholesale, selling at a 500% markup"
:-P
Bruce Johnson
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:40:04 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Re : Therapeutic Human Cloning (was Freezing, cloning, etc.)
On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:13:42 +1100 robocon@ozemail.com.au (Robert O'Connor)
wrote:
>Roger Sanger wrote :-
>> Were you aware that we have anagathics of the Imperial type already?
>> It's potentially as effective as the anagathics in Traveller (which
>> seems to peak out at about 150). We don't know yet how effective
>> this drug is on humans, but with it they have pushed the maximum life
>> span of rats to the equivalent of 140 years for a human.
>
>I would be *very* interested to see your references so that I could review
>them myself.
Ditto. If such a drug existed, it would be approved so fast it would make the
makers of Viagra wonder who they didn't bribe properly...
However, dimly kicking around the back of my mind is seeing a newspaper
article about some research into reproducing the effects of caloric
restriction without the rigors of caloric restriction...
>Note that telomeres are only part of the problem (referring to an earlier
>post of yours).
In fact don't they suspect now that the telomere shortening is a symptom of,
not cause of aging? IIRC that recent studies with cloned mice have shown that
clones do not, in fact necessarily have shorter lifespans.
Bruce Johnson
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:16:36 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Dean,
My usually lack of clarity led to some minor misunderstandings. i
REALLY much take more time with my posts, instead of typing them
willy-nilly.
"1) while chunks of ice, or indeed gas giant type planets even, could be
fairly common in deep space..."
I was thinking more along the lines of "delivered" chunks rather than
"found" chunks. That way, with a refinery at the depot, any sufficiently
large merchant could act as our re-supply vessel. Not having to build a
tanker would save credits.
"2) The "modular habitat for a refinery and crew...." is going to look like
a starport (well the highport part of it anyway.) It'll have all of the
features of the starport except cargo handling facilities and will probably
have more extensive recreation facilities."
My "vision" of a deep space depot most resembles Admunsen Station, our
facility at the South Pole. The depot would resemble a small highport
belonging to C or D class starport (maybe a small B class too).
It has a single purpose, a small crew (frequently rotated), a few visiting
academic types.
"3) Since the plan is to encourage trade to start up below cost may be an
option. Once people become used to buying planet Z's thingamawhatsits the
big boys from the megacorps may come in to the picture in a bigger way."
Very good point, below cost it is. Our government currently
"subsidizes" businesses of certain sizes and those owned by certain people
in order to "promote" the growth of those businesses. Might our world,
fearful of megacorp domination, set aside a certain percentage of
thingawhatsits for smaller firms?
Bill
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:20:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Ian Ferguson <ian@vax2.concordia.ca>
Subject: RE: Boarding craft
Tod Glenn writes:
>>>seize an not fully disabled ship, and said vessels managed to make hull
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>I would imagine so, though if the target ship is still capable of
>>maneuver it would likely be impossible to get into and stay in such
>>a dead zone.
>Note, I didn't suggest a fully capably ship, only that it might still have
>some abilitiy of (limited) maneuver and fire
For sure. I was thinking in terms of integer maneuver drive, but in
general less acceleration would make boarding easier. Still tough.
>>>I ask because it seems to me that a ship need not be fully disabled
>>>in order to be boarded, so long as a reasonable amount of damage
>>>has been done, and the ship can be 'cut out' from any supporting
>>>vessels.
>Re read the above
That wasn't me. :)
>>If the defending ship could still maneuver, simple tactics such as
>>imparting a spin and then maneuvering at random should make it
>>well nigh impossible to board. I assume that weapons firing under
>>typical ship
>These kind of maneuvers will also have some effect on the offenseive
>fire of the ship, particularly when firing at short range targets
Agreed. One might fire on approaching until the last moment,
then put on the spin. That would be risky if what little maneuver
you have is in danger of being lost... a judgement call.
>>Special gizmos might make it possible, though still difficult, to
>>board an active ship. I would expect this to involve high impact
>>ramming. That could be exciting! I will stick to restricting boarding
>>actions to disabled ships, if only because the expected rarity of
>>these actions precludes the design and construction of specialized
>>vehicles IMTU.
>But boarding's half the fun!
I cannot argue with that!
Peez
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:26:25 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
"I'd like the comment to especially focus on how 400dT ship can
mount 2 PAWs, 14 lasers, and 2 PD lasers."
"Nice and violent design. A battery of medium strength weapons, and the
crew to use them. Not much more really. That's how ;-)"
Mr. Rydholm,
Although I agree with your opinion concerning the design's suitability
for violence, I was more interested in the number of weapons when compared
to the ship's displacement.
I have never seen a copy of T4's FF&S2. Have the hardpoint limits and
requirements been done away with? With HG2, 4 hardpoints would available.
With single PAWs taking up a turret each and lasers grouped in threes, I
could only "fit" 8 out of 18 weapons listed. FF&S1 would drop that number
to 4.
So, what gives? Did FF&S2 make some changes?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:28:12 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
>Dean,
> My usually lack of clarity led to some minor misunderstandings. i
>REALLY much take more time with my posts, instead of typing them
>willy-nilly.
OK, Bill...but it wasn't me that objected..it was Dave Shayne.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:32:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
This hung me up for a while when TNE came out, but the general
consensus from various other players was that the tonnage-based
hardpoint limit was done away with (about time -- I hate arbitrary
rules).
BTW, TNE apparently has also done away with the minimum jump/hull size
rule, as the Regency Sourcebook has a jump-capable craft of
considerably less than 100 dtons.
- --- "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
> From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
> >Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> "Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> "I'd like the comment to especially focus on how 400dT ship can
> mount 2 PAWs, 14 lasers, and 2 PD lasers."
>
> "Nice and violent design. A battery of medium strength weapons, and
> the
> crew to use them. Not much more really. That's how ;-)"
>
> Mr. Rydholm,
> Although I agree with your opinion concerning the design's
> suitability
> for violence, I was more interested in the number of weapons when
> compared
> to the ship's displacement.
> I have never seen a copy of T4's FF&S2. Have the hardpoint
> limits and
> requirements been done away with? With HG2, 4 hardpoints would
> available.
> With single PAWs taking up a turret each and lasers grouped in
> threes, I
> could only "fit" 8 out of 18 weapons listed. FF&S1 would drop that
> number
> to 4.
> So, what gives? Did FF&S2 make some changes?
>
>
> Larsen
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
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------------------------------
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3674
Date: | 2/15/01 12:09:38 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Thursday, February 15 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3674
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Q ship design
RE: Boarding craft
Re: Q ship design
RE: Hull jump grids
Re: Q Ship Design
Re: Re : Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: Q Ship Design
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: Short & Nasty
Re: Q ship design
Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Q ship design
Are there any gamers in the ABQ, NM Area?
RE: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:37:51 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
>From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
"Dean,
My usually lack of clarity led to some minor misunderstandings. I REALLY
much take more time with my posts, instead of typing them willy-nilly."
OK, Bill...but it wasn't me that objected..it was Dave Shayne.
Dean
Dean,
Oh #@$*&^%!!!!!!!!. He's kind enough to invite me to use his personal
name and I STILL GET IT WRONG!
I must be suffering from a cranial/rectal inversion of late.
My apologies, Dean.
Bill
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:42:43 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
>From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
"This hung me up for a while when TNE came out, but the general
consensus from various other players was that the tonnage-based
hardpoint limit was done away with (about time -- I hate arbitrary
rules)."
Mr. Harris,
Thank you sir. I must dig out and re-read FF&S1.
"BTW, TNE apparently has also done away with the minimum jump/hull size
rule, as the Regency Sourcebook has a jump-capable craft of
considerably less than 100 dtons."
Yes I saw that too. The jump boats were... disturbing.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:54:48 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Boarding craft
Gentlemen,
I have followed the "boarding" thread with great interest. Everyone's
ideas on the subject have been most intriguing. But, absent of some amazing
and unheard of small craft capabilites or designs, none of which have been
posted here (even taking into account grappling arms and fast, plasma, hull
cutters), I must fall back on HG2's prerequisites for any boarding
attempts.
They are:
1) The target ship must be incapable of maneuvering.
2) The target ship must have no remaining offensive weapons.
3) The target ship must not have a working black globe.
4) The target ship must have been "abandoned" by any friendly, protecting
vessels.
Any boarding attempt when none of the conditions above apply will be
very costly for the attacking force. Unless they don't care about
casualties, that is.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:01:10 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
on 2/15/01 7:42 AM, Larsen E. Whipsnade at grote1731@hotmail.com wrote:
> Mr. Harris,
> Thank you sir. I must dig out and re-read FF&S1.
>
> "BTW, TNE apparently has also done away with the minimum jump/hull size
> rule, as the Regency Sourcebook has a jump-capable craft of
> considerably less than 100 dtons."
>
> Yes I saw that too. The jump boats were... disturbing.
>
The only game is Traveller, and High Guard is its product.
While I do somewhat disagree with the restriction of turrets base on
tonnage, departing from this really wonks things up.
Our solution for Q boats was to allow internal weapoms mounts with _limited_
fields of fire to be mounted in holds and such. Something like the original
Q-boats or the modern AC130 Spectre.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:01:54 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Hull jump grids
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
"To achive this I have a design sequence mod filched off the net that
breaks down jump drive into its components, thus battleriders carry integral
hull grids but all other jump components are in the tender."
Mr. Trevor,
While your idea is interesting, I do have a question about it.
If the riders form the rider/tender combo's hull grid and some or all
of the riders are lost in battle, can your tender then jump to safety?
There is a blurb in the SMC's chapter describing the 154th Battle Rider
Squadron. In the paragraph dealing with the carrier; "... the carrier
serves a battle control station as well as a centralized jump dirve for the
squadron.".
I'm looking forward to your reply.
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:07:48 -0600
From: "Andy Akins" <andyakins@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Q Ship Design
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> Although I agree with your opinion concerning the design's
suitability
> for violence, I was more interested in the number of weapons when compared
> to the ship's displacement.
> I have never seen a copy of T4's FF&S2. Have the hardpoint limits
and
> requirements been done away with? With HG2, 4 hardpoints would available.
> With single PAWs taking up a turret each and lasers grouped in threes, I
> could only "fit" 8 out of 18 weapons listed. FF&S1 would drop that number
> to 4.
> So, what gives? Did FF&S2 make some changes?
Bill,
I'll jump in on this one.
TNE's (The New Era) FF&S and T4's FF&S2 made a fair number of changes to the
"technical architecture" of the Traveller universe. Depending on who you
ask, these changes were Real Good(tm) or Real Bad(tm). I'll save my verdict
till the end, and just try to list some of them (note: some of these apply
to FF&S1, some to FF&S2, and some to both...I don't have my copies in front
of me, so I'm afraid I can't say which is which at the moment):
1. Thruster plates are relagated to "alternative" technology, replaced with
HePLAR, which is a more realistic, reaction based drive system that requires
fuel. I'm pretty sure this is a FF&S1 thing.
2. Hard point requirements for weapons gone.
3. 100-ton jump displacement requirement gone.
4. Repulsors gone.
5. HEW (High energy weapons, plasma and fusion) gone.
6. Effective small PAs (turrets, small bays) gone.
7. _much_ more detail added on things like controls, sensors, life support,
defences, and gizmos of various kinds.
I may have missed a few.
Like I said, people are split on the above changes. The two that I've seen
the biggest arguments over are 1 and 3. To each their own.
For what it's worth - I'm an old timer. Even though I'm closely linked with
GURPS Traveller now, I'm a huge fan of Classic Traveller - so the only thing
I _liked_ about either of the FF&S books was #7. 1-6 kind-of made me grumpy,
and I never used them myself. YMMV. For the record, there are some things
about the current GURPS ship designs that I don't like either - but I'm
stuck with them for this gig :) My favorite all time system, even with its
flaws (and it has some) is High Guard 2nd Edition. I would _love_ to see a
HG-like system that offered more options in the area of sensors, life
support, and gizmos (sickbays, barracks, etc)...
Andy Akins
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:14:42 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Re : Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
>From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
"The logistics of bone marrow and stem cell harvesting with the current
state of the art make this a difficult..."
Mr. O'Connor,
I find it very telling that our society uses the word "harvesting" when
referring to these procedures.
Prior to this medical "advancement", crops were "harvested". Fish were
"harvested". Feral animals whose numbers exceeded their habitat's carrying
capacity were "harvested".
Now, children, who were concieved and delivered for this specific
purpose or who are unlucky enough to be siblings, find their body tissues
"harvested".
Is doesn't matter that these tissue grow back, as Ms. Morgan pointed
out, the other resources I listed grow back too. What matters is that they
are viewed as being a resource to be harvested.
Hopefully, our cloning techniques will improve fast enough for us to
avoid the rather nasty implications that harvesting implies.
Larsen
P.S. It's not that I dislike the word, it's more that I dislike the
subconscious connotations it implies. Please read some of Orwell's
non-fiction for a better explanation of this.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:27:56 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Q Ship Design
From: "Andy Akins" <andyakins@earthlink.net>
Mr. Akins,
Thank you so much for your post. I really must dig out FF&S1 and
purchase FF&S2. The changes in both are worth scrutiny.
"1. Thruster plates are relagated to "alternative" technology, replaced
with HePLAR, which is a more realistic, reaction based drive system that
requires fuel. I'm pretty sure this is a FF&S1 thing."
I did "like" this one. It explained the very large, and very weird,
power plant fuel requirements in CT and HG2.
"6. Effective small PAs (turrets, small bays) gone."
If this is true, how does the Q-ship design sport two PAWs? Does it
have a double barreled spinal mount?
"7. _much_ more detail added on things like controls, sensors, life
support, defences, and gizmos of various kinds."
Another addition I applauded. It was very nice for PC's ships in RPGs.
I would have liked to see a broader "requirement per dTon" rule for use in
HG2.
"My favorite all time system, even with its flaws (and it has some) is
High Guard 2nd Edition."
Do you belong to the ct-starships group at Yahoo Groups? It used to be
at eGroups befoe the merger. I do and we're having quite a bit of fun at
the moment.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:15:07
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
At 08:50 AM 2/15/2001 +0200, you wrote:
>Isn't polygamy acceptable in the liberal US?
Ha! Remember that North America was mostly settled by religious fanatics,
and that influence has stayed. The US is by far the most sexually
repressed place I've ever seen.
My first trip to Germany, as a 18 year old soldier, was a revelation.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"There is no emoticon to express how I feel!"
- -Comic Shop Guy, "The Simpsons"
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 06:20:41 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <ethan.henry@sitraka.com>
Subject: Re: Short & Nasty
As I was on vacation for a week I feel fully justified in
replying to a 2-week-old message I'm only now reading...
"Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> Hmm.. without revealing too much.. this isn't a "long-simmering" thing. It
> is a sudden change to the status quo. And the ringleaders are..
>
> no, that would be telling. :)
Doug,
We want information. By hook or by crook, we'll get it.
Remember: you must be the hammer... or the anvil.
Be seeing you.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:05:19 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> I have never seen a copy of T4's FF&S2. Have the hardpoint limits
> and requirements been done away with? With HG2, 4 hardpoints would
> available.
What limit? I have never seen FFS1. Since there is no such limit in
FFS2, I assume the answer to your question is "yes, the hardpoint limits
have been done away with"
Good thing too. Seems like an unrealistic limit. If the weapons fit and
can be operated/powered/crewed, they should be allowed.
And no, I don't work for Familie Spofulam... yet.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:44:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
In mail you write:
> John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>
>>Tod Glenn wrote:
>> >
>><<snip>>
>> >
>> > Somehow, I just knew that you would know the answer to this one, Mark.
>> >
>> > But, what is the airspeed of an unladen sparrow, smartguy?
>>
>>That information is classified:
>>
>>http://www.af.mil/news/factsheets/AIM_7_Sparrow.html
>>
>>However, at least one Web site has an unclassified figure of Mach 4+:
>>
>>http://www.novia.net/~tomcat/AIM-7.html
>>
>>Hope this helps! ;-)
>
> Uh, John? Unless those are training shots, they're not *UNLADEN*. :^)
Personally, I'm fond of the Genie. A missile that *had* to have been
designed by the ancestors of Familie Spofulam.
For those not familiar with it, the Genie is an unguided air-to-air
missile, about the size of a large man. It has a nuclear warhead...
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:54:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
In mail you write:
> If you were to do this you would design ships for this very specific
> function. Much like supertankers. they would have their own supply of fuel
> and not use anything from the cargo to get back and forth on.
>
> Second you would design the ship to transport as much fuel as possable.
> basically i would design something that had say 3 or 4 Fuel tank pods that
> the tanker would drop off. it would pick up the empties and jump back to the
> fueling point.
>
> these Pods would upon connection to the tanker "hook" their jump grid to the
> tankers so that the grid would cover all points on the ship.
Much simpler. Buy a surplus battle rider "tender" (is that the right
term) and build tanks that fit where the battle riders did.
In fact, come to think of it, the military ought to *have* such ships.
A couple of those could establish one *hell* of a fuel depot in a
hurry. Just the thing for that surprise attack across a rift.
And after dropping tanks at the refueling point, they could jump
insystem after the task force and pick up any riders whose tenders had
been destroyed or damaged.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:16:51 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
At 07:05 PM 02/15/2001 +0100, you wrote:
>"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> > I have never seen a copy of T4's FF&S2. Have the hardpoint limits
> > and requirements been done away with? With HG2, 4 hardpoints would
> > available.
>
>What limit? I have never seen FFS1. Since there is no such limit in
>FFS2, I assume the answer to your question is "yes, the hardpoint limits
>have been done away with"
>
>Good thing too. Seems like an unrealistic limit. If the weapons fit and
>can be operated/powered/crewed, they should be allowed.
But FFS introduced a whole host of other limiting factors such as surface
area, radiators, sensors, and other issues that HG never touched on.
Kurt Feltenberger
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
~Stephen Decatur
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:17:40 -0700
From: "Eric T. Holmes" <eholmes@lanl.gov>
Subject: Are there any gamers in the ABQ, NM Area?
All:
I've been given an opportunity to hold Traveller game
sessions at a local game store in the Rio Rancho -
Albuquerque, NM area. Are there any TMLers or other
Traveller list residents that might be interested in getting
together, twice a month?
If so, I'll send details.
Eric
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:36:08 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
>Much simpler. Buy a surplus battle rider "tender" (is that the right
>term) and build tanks that fit where the battle riders did.
Very good idea. me personally i like designated Tankers for civilian use.
But for a military use this would be excellent and all that you would ahve
to do is design the pods to use the same docking point as the battle riders.
>In fact, come to think of it, the military ought to *have* such ships.
>A couple of those could establish one *hell* of a fuel depot in a
>hurry. Just the thing for that surprise attack across a rift.
Absolutly.
>And after dropping tanks at the refueling point, they could jump
>insystem after the task force and pick up any riders whose tenders had
>been destroyed or damaged.
Gives your military tanker a double purpose.
Also talking about tankers with military vessles. that brings something else
to my mind.
UNREP
underway replenshment. Would Military shipping in the Imperium find UNREP a
worth while thing?
If a fleet jumps to point B and now they need to jump to point C where the
attack will be. would it be faster for the fleet to practice some sort of
UNREP? or would they just skim unrefined fuel?
I tend to think that some sort of UNREP would be the fastest way to refuel.
anyway just a thought
Bill
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:45:11 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
On 15 Feb 2001, at 10:36, Timothy Little wrote:
> Rob Davenport wrote:
> > What kind of semi-stationary facilities are/could be used to improve
> > the collection of unr.fuel from a system's gas giants? Has anyone
> > designed any?
>
> Gas giants will almost certainly have moons. Moons will almost
> certainly have large to huge amounts of water, methane, and/or
> ammonia. Plonk a refining facility on one of the moons and you have
> access to all the fuel you could ever want without doing dangerous
> stunts such as diving into a gas giant's atmosphere.
True - I was coming to realize that. But... :) for those systems
where there are gas giants and no moons, comets, or other sources
of unr.fuel and that are economically important enough, them maybe
some kind of system would be used.
Admittedly the chances of finding such a system seem to be remote
now - maybe an isolated M star with a couple minor worlds (or none)
that captured a gas giant (i.e. no moons or comets). But it does
seem like a stretch now.
I think of the various engineering marvels around our country
that were built as part of our infrastructure development or railroads
(like the Horseshoe Curve in Altoona, PA), highways, dams, etc. Maybe
there are singular or rare occurances of stations like this that
were made out of strategic necessity. Maybe outdated today, but needed
way back when and still feats of engineering.
> One very big advantage: you don't need extremely reliable thrusters to
> keep you from plunging to a crushing death in the depths of the gas
> giant.
Yep.
> However, I have designed special-purpose skimmer ships and a refining
> and storage space station. I can't seem to locate them at the moment
> though -- it's been years since I needed them.
Would like to see them if you find them someday.
Rob D.
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Raptus regaliter -- Royally screwed
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 10:59:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
In mail you write:
> If i remember the stories correctly beena while since i have read them.
> (time to dig my copies out again 8) )
>
> the hani where not drugged during jump. however they where in a dream like
> state for the duration of the jump say a week. They did not leave their
> seats on the bridge or what ever. I seem to remember Pyanfar talking about
> her Shedded fur right after a jump and wishing for a bath.
>
> Tulley (i think his name was could be wrong) would be sedated before a jump.
> i remember refrences to this.
>
> i always ran my aslani much like the hani. i really liked the hani.
>
> anyway is what i remember.
The Hani took some drugs as well. but they weren't sedated.
The Kif turned out to be *active* during jumps! Which explained a lot.
Humans *can* learn to go thru jump without any drugs. But it's pretty
bad the first few times. Check the "Faded Sun" trilogy for details on
that. The Mri (the main aliens in that series) don't use drugs and
forced the human protagonist to do without after he was "adopted" into
their "clan".
BTW, there's a filk song that either riginal, or based on a Cherryh
story I haven't tracked down.
It's about a ship sent out sublight (but at relativistic speeds) to
scout for new systems and jump points. The crew was in cold sleep. When
the system wake them, they discover that the ship failed to make
turnover, and instead just kept accelerating. So they are going at a
*high* fraction of c. With no way to slow down.
So they live their lives zipping thru space. As the song opens, the
last survivor of the crew and the son she had onboard ship are watching
the starbow, and she's telling him that the recycling systems are
failing...
It's a very *sad* song, but not depressing. And damned moving.
It's also a song that could be dropped into damn near any TU, as
something that survived from the pre-jump days of some branch of
humanity.
I've run into a few other filks that could be incorporated into a
campaign that way.
ps. an interesting aspect of that song is that if it was to be a "real"
event in your TU, the crew of the ship won't have finished checking out
the ship yet... After all, the several thousand years that have passed
since the launch haven't been all that long in *their* reference frame.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:35:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
In mail you write:
> Well agian this is an assumtion i would make. lets take the Sol system and
> say that this is the system from which we are sending our tankers. Now i
> firmly believe that you would have Some form of Aseriod Mining going on. i
> would also assume that your Low and nil G ore refining or manufaturing would
> be going on here also. now lets say that we put our refinery on Io around
> jupiter. now we have the posability (based on latest finding from Galileo)
> that there is an ocean under its crust. even if not we use out small
> freetankers to skim of Jupiter.
Io is the one with the sulfur volcanos. You are thinking of Europa.
Which regardless of whether there is an ocean or not, is *definitely*
covered with lots and lots of *ice*. No need to tap the ocean, just
scoop up the ice on the surface and process it.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:40:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
In mail you write:
>> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 02:55:20 -0000
>> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>
> <snip interesting stuff>
>
>> The current enthusiasm for some other posters here about constructing
>> actual starports in deep space is not shared by myself. I envision a far
>> more simple affair; chunks of "ice-teroid", a modular habitat for a
> refinary
>> and crew, perhaps some researchers, and a patrol craft of some sort on
> duty.
>
> A couple of points to bear in mind.
>
> 1) while chunks of ice, or indeed gas giant type planets even, could be
> fairly
> common in deep space (ie not in the immediate vicinity of a star) they
> will probably be fairly hard to find. Sure just keep sending out scout
> expeditions
> and eventually you'll probably come across one but it could take a while.
No, just send out one with a big folding array and send out *powerful*
radar pulses in a pseudo random pattern. Then sit there for a few weeks
listening for the echoes. That'll detect anything worth bothering with
within a light week or so.
There's also a design for a "radar" unit that uses a nuclear bomb to
generate the microwave pulse. Given that nuke-pumped laser missiles
are ok, this shouldn't be a problem at all, since it would be even
harder to turn into a weapon.
I'd expect that they might even be "standard equipment" for surveying
newly discovered systems. Set one off, records the returns over the
next few hiours, set anoth off on the other side of the star, and
you've got the positions of every body over a given size in the system.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:04:56 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
In mail you write:
> Customs and Etiquette of the Imperial Court
>
> How about some examples.
> Like be careful who you walk through, they may not be a hologram.
ROTFL!
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3674
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3675
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Traveller-digest Thursday, February 15 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3675
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Automatic success in MT
Re: How a Densitometer Works
Re: What is earths Diameter?
RE: Deep Space Jumps
ropecon; sina and te
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:13:53 -0500
From: Michael Stasica <stosh@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
>
> > If you were to do this you would design ships for this very specific
> SNIP
> > tankers so that the grid would cover all points on the ship.
>
> Much simpler. Buy a surplus battle rider "tender" (is that the right
> term) and build tanks that fit where the battle riders did.
>
> In fact, come to think of it, the military ought to *have* such ships.
> A couple of those could establish one *hell* of a fuel depot in a
> hurry. Just the thing for that surprise attack across a rift.
>
> And after dropping tanks at the refueling point, they could jump
> insystem after the task force and pick up any riders whose tenders had
> been destroyed or damaged.
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
From The Spinward Marches Campaign - CT - Copyright 1985 GDW.
Pg. 35. 154th IMPERIAL BATTLE RIDER SQUADRON
HG STATS. : Battle Carrier Lurenti Class CB-T7425J4-099909-99999-200 MCr
23.056 300,000 Tons
Built at TL 15
In addition to the 200 Fighters (Sylean Class 50 Tons) this Ship usually carries
7 20,000 Ton Battle Riders.
Hmmm, Leonard I think you solved the fuel shipping problem with this one, good
memory. With a little tinkering
I could see one of these ships decommissioned into a Deep Space Station.
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:20:19 -0500
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Automatic success in MT
(I sent this earlier today from a different address and it doesn't seem to have surfaced, so I'm sending it again; apologies if it ends up appearing twice)
- ----------
This has been stewing in my subconscious since the Nth TML Task War a couple months back but just bubbled to the surface yesterday:
Under the MegaTraveller task system, a roll of natural 2 is always a Fumble Mishap, regardless of DMs or task difficulty. Thus, no matter how skilled the character or how easy the task, as long as a task roll is made there is always at least a 2.8% chance of failure. As Timothy Little has rightly pointed out, over the course of an entire session and many rolls, these individually insignificant percentages add up, meaning that sooner or later even the most skilled character is going to botch some simple and routine tasks. Therefore, I propose the following simple remedy:
"In any case where a character has a large enough DM that a task roll can only result in an exceptional success or a fumble mishap, the player may choose to not roll the task and instead accept an automatic normal success."
For simple tasks, this is a DM of +2 or higher, for routine tasks the DM is +6 or higher; I'm tempted to declare by fiat the DMs to be +3 and +7, both for the aesthetics of matching the difficulty profile, and also because I'm not crazy about the idea of a stat 5, skill-1 character being 100% automatic with ANY task, no matter how easy.
This rule is really just a formalization of what I've been doing ad-hoc for a long time. Has anybody else established a similar rule? If so, did it have a noticeable effect on the game? Are there problems (practical or game-philosophical) that I'm overlooking here? I just came up with this driving home from work yesterday; I don't even pretend to have thought through all possible ramifications.
Trent
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:06:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: How a Densitometer Works
In mail you write:
> Tod Glenn writes:
>
>> Couldn't one calculate density based on volume and generated gravitational
>> pull (with the mass that is implied)?
>
> Sometimes. I don't think there's any way to tell the difference between a
> hollow sphere and a solid sphere of the same mass, for example. A gravity
> map will give you a very general shape telling you roughly where the density
> is high or low, but the resolution is very low.
I think it may be possible by looking at higher order effects. But I
wouldn't be surprised if I was wrong.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:10:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: What is earths Diameter?
In mail you write:
> Does anyone know what earths Diameter is?
>
> also what is our moons diameter?
From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
Newsgroups: sci.space.tech,sci.space.science,sci.astro,sci.answers,news.answers
Subject: Space FAQ 04/13 - Calculations
Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
Date: 17 Sep 1996 15:51:28 -0400
Expires: 22 Oct 1996 19:51:24 GMT
Followup-To: poster
Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
Approved: sci-space-tech@isu.isunet.edu, news-answers-request@MIT.Edu
Supersedes: <math_823659535@cs.unc.edu>
Archive-name: space/math
Last-modified: $Date: 96/09/17 15:40:28 $
Compilation copyright (c) 1994, 1995, 1996 by Jonathan P. Leech. This
document may be redistributed in its complete and unmodified form. Other
use requires written permission of the author.
CONSTANTS AND EQUATIONS FOR CALCULATIONS
This list was originally compiled by Dale Greer. Additions would be
appreciated.
Numbers in parentheses are approximations that will serve for most
blue-skying purposes.
Unix systems provide the 'units' program, useful in converting between
different systems (metric/English, CGS/MKS etc.)
NUMBERS
7726 m/s (8000) -- Earth orbital velocity at 300 km altitude
3075 m/s (3000) -- Earth orbital velocity at 35786 km (geosync)
6371 km (6400) -- Mean radius of Earth
6378 km (6400) -- Equatorial radius of Earth
1738 km (1700) -- Mean radius of Moon
5.974e24 kg (6e24) -- Mass of Earth
7.348e22 kg (7e22) -- Mass of Moon
1.989e30 kg (2e30) -- Mass of Sun
3.986e14 m^3/s^2 (4e14) -- Gravitational constant times mass of Earth
4.903e12 m^3/s^2 (5e12) -- Gravitational constant times mass of Moon
1.327e20 m^3/s^2 (13e19) -- Gravitational constant times mass of Sun
384401 km ( 4e5) -- Mean Earth-Moon distance
1.496e11 m (15e10) -- Mean Earth-Sun distance (Astronomical Unit)
1 megaton (MT) TNT = about 4.2e15 J or the energy equivalent of
about .05 kg (50 g) of matter. Ref: J.R Williams, "The Energy Level
of Things", Air Force Special Weapons Center (ARDC), Kirtland Air
Force Base, New Mexico, 1963. Also see "The Effects of Nuclear
Weapons", compiled by S. Glasstone and P.J. Dolan, published by the
US Department of Defense (obtain from the GPO).
EQUATIONS
Where d is distance, v is velocity, a is acceleration, t is time.
Additional more specialized equations are available from:
ftp://ftp.cs.unc.edu/pub/users/leech/FAQ/MoreEquations.gz
For constant acceleration
d = d0 + vt + .5at^2
v = v0 + at
v^2 = 2ad
Acceleration on a cylinder (space colony, etc.) of radius r and
rotation period t:
a = 4 pi**2 r / t^2
For circular Keplerian orbits where:
Vc = velocity of a circular orbit
Vesc = escape velocity
M = Total mass of orbiting and orbited bodies
G = Gravitational constant (defined below)
u = G * M (can be measured much more accurately than G or M)
K = -G * M / 2 / a
r = radius of orbit (measured from center of mass of system)
V = orbital velocity
P = orbital period
a = semimajor axis of orbit
Vc = sqrt(M * G / r)
Vesc = sqrt(2 * M * G / r) = sqrt(2) * Vc
V^2 = u/a
P = 2 pi/(Sqrt(u/a^3))
K = 1/2 V**2 - G * M / r (conservation of energy)
The period of an eccentric orbit is the same as the period
of a circular orbit with the same semi-major axis.
Change in velocity required for a plane change of angle phi in a
circular orbit:
delta V = 2 sqrt(GM/r) sin (phi/2)
Energy to put mass m into a circular orbit (ignores rotational
velocity, which reduces the energy a bit).
GMm (1/Re - 1/2Rcirc)
Re = radius of the earth
Rcirc = radius of the circular orbit.
Classical rocket equation, where
dv = change in velocity
Isp = specific impulse of engine
Ve = exhaust velocity
x = reaction mass
m1 = rocket mass excluding reaction mass
g = 9.8 m / s^2
Ve = Isp * g
dv = Ve * log((m1 + x) / m1)
= Ve * log((final mass) / (initial mass))
Relativistic rocket equation (constant acceleration)
t (unaccelerated) = c/a * sinh(a*t/c)
d = c**2/a * (cosh(a*t/c) - 1)
v = c * tanh(a*t/c)
Relativistic rocket with exhaust velocity Ve and mass ratio MR:
at/c = Ve/c * ln(MR), or
t (unaccelerated) = c/a * sinh(Ve/c * ln(MR))
d = c**2/a * (cosh(Ve/C * ln(MR)) - 1)
v = c * tanh(Ve/C * ln(MR))
Converting from parallax to distance:
d (in parsecs) = 1 / p (in arc seconds)
d (in astronomical units) = 206265 / p
Miscellaneous
f=ma -- Force is mass times acceleration
w=fd -- Work (energy) is force times distance
Atmospheric density varies as exp(-mgz/kT) where z is altitude, m is
molecular weight in kg of air, g is local acceleration of gravity, T
is temperature, k is Bolztmann's constant. On Earth up to 100 km,
d = d0*exp(-z*1.42e-4)
where d is density, d0 is density at 0km, is approximately true, so
d@12km (40000 ft) = d0*.18
d@9 km (30000 ft) = d0*.27
d@6 km (20000 ft) = d0*.43
d@3 km (10000 ft) = d0*.65
Atmospheric scale height Dry lapse rate
(in km at emission level) (K/km)
------------------------- --------------
Earth 7.5 9.8
Mars 11 4.4
Venus 4.9 10.5
Titan 18 1.3
Jupiter 19 2.0
Saturn 37 0.7
Uranus 24 0.7
Neptune 21 0.8
Triton 8 1
Titius-Bode Law for approximating planetary distances:
R(n) = 0.4 + 0.3 * 2^N Astronomical Units
This fits fairly well for Mercury (N = -infinity), Venus
(N = 0), Earth (N = 1), Mars (N = 2), Jupiter (N = 4),
Saturn (N = 5), Uranus (N = 6), and Pluto (N = 7).
CONSTANTS
6.62618e-34 J-s (7e-34) -- Planck's Constant "h"
1.054589e-34 J-s (1e-34) -- Planck's Constant / (2 * PI), "h bar"
1.3807e-23 J/K (1.4e-23) - Boltzmann's Constant "k"
5.6697e-8 W/m^2/K (6e-8) -- Stephan-Boltzmann Constant "sigma"
6.673e-11 N m^2/kg^2 (7e-11) -- Newton's Gravitational Constant "G"
0.0029 m K (3e-3) -- Wien's Constant "sigma(W)"
3.827e26 W (4e26) -- Luminosity of Sun
1370 W / m^2 (1400) -- Solar Constant (intensity at 1 AU)
6.96e8 m (7e8) -- radius of Sun
1738 km (2e3) -- radius of Moon
299792458 m/s (3e8) -- speed of light in vacuum "c"
9.46053e15 m (1e16) -- light year
206264.806 AU (2e5) -- one parsec
3.2616 light years (3) -- one parsec
3.0856e16 m (3e16) -- one parsec
Black Hole radius (also called Schwarzschild Radius):
2GM/c^2, where G is Newton's Gravitational Constant, M is mass of
black hole, c is speed of light
Things to add (somebody look them up!)
Basic rocketry numbers & equations
Aerodynamical stuff
Energy to put a pound into orbit or accelerate to interstellar
velocities.
Non-circular cases?
PERFORMING CALCULATIONS AND INTERPRETING DATA FORMATS
COMPUTING SPACECRAFT ORBITS AND TRAJECTORIES
References that have been frequently recommended on the net are:
"Fundamentals of Astrodynamics" Roger Bate, Donald Mueller, Jerry White
1971, Dover Press, 455pp $8.95 (US) (paperback). ISBN 0-486-60061-0
NASA Spaceflight handbooks (dating from the 1960s)
SP-33 Orbital Flight Handbook (3 parts)
SP-34 Lunar Flight Handbook (3 parts)
SP-35 Planetary Flight Handbook (9 parts)
These might be found in university aeronautics libraries or ordered
through the US Govt. Printing Office (GPO), although more
information would probably be needed to order them.
M. A. Minovitch, _The Determination and Characteristics of Ballistic
Interplanetary Trajectories Under the Influence of Multiple Planetary
Attractions_, Technical Report 32-464, Jet Propulsion Laboratory,
Pasadena, Calif., Oct, 1963.
The title says all. Starts of with the basics and works its way up.
Very good. It has a companion article:
M. Minovitch, _Utilizing Large Planetary Perturbations for the Design of
Deep-Space Solar-Probe and Out of Ecliptic Trajectories_, Technical
Report 32-849, JPL, Pasadena, Calif., 1965.
You need to read the first one first to really understand this one.
It does include a _short_ summary if you can only find the second.
Contact JPL for availability of these reports.
"Spacecraft Attitude Dynamics", Peter C. Hughes 1986, John Wiley and
Sons.
"Celestial Mechanics: a computational guide for the practitioner",
Lawrence G. Taff, (Wiley-Interscience, New York, 1985).
Starts with the basics (2-body problem, coordinates) and works up to
orbit determinations, perturbations, and differential corrections.
Taff also briefly discusses stellar dynamics including a short
discussion of n-body problems.
COMPUTING PLANETARY POSITIONS
More net references:
"Explanatory Supplement to the Astronomical Almanac" (revised edition),
Kenneth Seidelmann, University Science Books, 1992. ISBN 0-935702-68-7.
$65 in hardcover.
Deep math for all the algorthms and tables in the AA.
Van Flandern & Pullinen, _Low-Precision Formulae for Planetary
Positions_, Astrophysical J. Supp Series, 41:391-411, 1979. Look in an
astronomy or physics library for this; also said to be available from
Willmann-Bell.
Gives series to compute positions accurate to 1 arc minute for a
period + or - 300 years from now. Pluto is included but stated to
have an accuracy of only about 15 arc minutes.
_Multiyear Interactive Computer Almanac_ (MICA), produced by the US
Naval Observatory. Valid for years 1990-1999. $55 ($80 outside US).
Available for IBM (order #PB93-500163HDV) or Macintosh (order
#PB93-500155HDV). From the NTIS sales desk, (703)-487-4650. I believe
this is intended to replace the USNO's Interactive Computer Ephemeris.
_Interactive Computer Ephemeris_ (from the US Naval Observatory)
distributed on IBM-PC floppy disks, $35 (Willmann-Bell). Covers dates
1800-2049.
"Planetary Programs and Tables from -4000 to +2800", Bretagnon & Simon
1986, Willmann-Bell.
Floppy disks available separately.
"Fundamentals of Celestial Mechanics" (2nd ed), J.M.A. Danby 1988,
Willmann-Bell.
A good fundamental text. Includes BASIC programs; a companion set of
floppy disks is available separately.
"Astronomical Formulae for Calculators" (4th ed.), J. Meeus 1988,
Willmann-Bell.
"Astronomical Algorithms", J. Meeus 1991, Willmann-Bell.
If you actively use one of the editions of "Astronomical Formulae
for Calculators", you will want to replace it with "Astronomical
Algorithms". This new book is more oriented towards computers than
calculators and contains formulae for planetary motion based on
modern work by the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, the U.S. Naval
Observatory, and the Bureau des Longitudes. The previous books were
all based on formulae mostly developed in the last century.
Algorithms available separately on diskette.
"Practical Astronomy with your Calculator" (3rd ed.), P. Duffett-Smith
1988, Cambridge University Press.
"Orbits for Amateurs with a Microcomputer", D. Tattersfield 1984,
Stanley Thornes, Ltd.
Includes example programs in BASIC.
"Orbits for Amateurs II", D. Tattersfield 1987, John Wiley & Sons.
"Astronomy / Scientific Software" - catalog of shareware, public domain,
and commercial software for IBM and other PCs. Astronomy software
includes planetarium simulations, ephemeris generators, astronomical
databases, solar system simulations, satellite tracking programs,
celestial mechanics simulators, and more.
Andromeda Software, Inc.
P.O. Box 605
Amherst, NY 14226-0605
COMPUTING CRATER DIAMETERS FROM EARTH-IMPACTING ASTEROIDS
Astrogeologist Gene Shoemaker proposes the following formula, based on
studies of cratering caused by nuclear tests. Units are MKS unless
otherwise noted; impact energy is sometimes expressed in nuclear bomb
terms (kilotons TNT equivalent) due to the origin of the model.
D = Sg Sp Kn W^(1/3.4)
Crater diameter, meters. On Earth, if D > 3 km, the crater is
assumed to collapse by a factor of 1.3 due to gravity.
Sg = (ge/gt)^(1/6)
Gravity correction factor cited for craters on the Moon. May hold
true for other bodies. ge = 9.8 m/s^2 is Earth gravity, gt is
gravity of the target body.
Sp = (pa/pt)^(1/3.4)
Density correction factor for target material relative to the Jangle
U nuclear crater site. pa = 1.8e3 kg/m^3 (1.8 gm/cm^3) for alluvium,
pt = density at the impact site. For reference, average rock on the
continental shields has a density of 2.6e3 kg/m^3 (2.6 gm/cm^3).
Kn = 74 m / (kiloton TNT equivalent)^(1/3.4)
Empirically determined scaling factor from bomb yield to crater
diameter at Jangle U.
W = Ke / (4.185e12 joules/KT)
Kinetic energy of asteroid, kilotons TNT equivalent.
Ke = 1/2 m v^2
Kinetic energy of asteroid, joules.
v = impact velocity of asteroid, m/s.
2e4 m/s (20 km/s) is common for an asteroid in an Earth-crossing
orbit.
m = 4/3 pi r^3 rho
Mass of asteroid, kg.
r = radius of asteroid, m
rho = density of asteroid, kg/m^3
3.3e3 kg/m^3 (3 gm/cm^3) is reasonable for a common S-type asteroid.
For an example, let's work the body which created the 1.1 km diameter
Barringer Meteor Crater in Arizona (in reality the model was run
backwards from the known crater size to estimate the meteor size, but
this is just to show how the math works):
r = 40 m Meteor radius
rho = 7.8e3 kg/m^3 Density of nickel-iron meteor
v = 2e4 m/s Impact velocity characteristic of asteroids
in Earth-crossing orbits
pt = 2.3e3 kg/m^3 Density of Arizona at impact site
Sg = 1 No correction for impact on Earth
Sp = (1.8/2.3)^(1/3.4) = .93
m = 4/3 pi 40^3 7.8e3 = 2.61e8 kg
Ke = 1/2 * 2.61e8 kg * (2e4 m/s)^2
= 5.22e16 joules
W = 5.22e16 / 4.185e12 = 12,470 KT
D = 1 * .93 * 74 * 12470^(1/3.4) = 1100 meters
More generally, one can use (after Gehrels, 1985):
Asteroid Number of Impact probability Impact energy as multiple
diameter (km) Objects (impacts/year) of Hiroshima bomb
------------- --------- ------------------ -------------------------
10 10 10e-8 1e9 (1 billion)
1 1e3 10e-6 1e6 (1 million)
0.1 1e5 10e-4 1e3 (1 thousand)
The Hiroshima explosion is assumed to be 13 kilotons.
Finally, a back of the envelope rule is that an object moving at a speed
of 3 km/s has kinetic energy equal to the explosive energy of an equal
mass of TNT; thus a 10 ton asteroid moving at 30 km/sec would have an
impact energy of (10 ton) (30 km/sec / 3 km/sec)^2 = 1 KT.
References:
Clark Chapman and David Morrison, "Cosmic Catastrophes", Plenum Press
1989, ISBN 0-306-43163-7.
Gehrels, T. 1985 Asteroids and comets. _Physics Today_ 38, 32-41. [an
excellent general overview of the subject for the layman]
Shoemaker, E.M. 1983 Asteroid and comet bombardment of the earth. _Ann.
Rev. Earth Planet. Sci._ 11, 461-494. [very long and fairly
technical but a comprehensive examination of the
subject]
Shoemaker, E.M., J.G. Williams, E.F. Helin & R.F. Wolfe 1979
Earth-crossing asteroids: Orbital classes, collision rates with
Earth, and origin. In _Asteroids_, T. Gehrels, ed., pp. 253-282,
University of Arizona Press, Tucson.
Cunningham, C.J. 1988 _Introduction to Asteroids: The Next Frontier_
(Richmond: Willman-Bell, Inc.) [covers all aspects of asteroid
studies and is an excellent introduction to the subject for people
of all experience levels. It also has a very extensive reference
list covering essentially all of the reference material in the
field.]
MAP PROJECTIONS AND SPHERICAL TRIGNOMETRY
Source code for cartographic projections may be found in
ftp://charon.er.usgs.gov/pub/PROJ.4/
Two easy-to-find sources of map projections are the "Encyclopaedia
Britannica", (particularly the older editions) and a tutorial appearing
in _Graphics Gems_ (Academic Press, 1990). The latter was written with
simplicity of exposition and suitability for digital computation in mind
(spherical trig formulae also appear, as do digitally-plotted examples).
More than you ever cared to know about map projections is in John
Snyder's USGS publication "Map Projections--A Working Manual", USGS
Professional Paper 1395. This contains detailed descriptions of 32
projections, with history, features, projection formulas (for both
spherical earth and ellipsoidal earth), and numerical test cases. It's a
neat book, all 382 pages worth. This one's $20.
You might also want the companion volume, by Snyder and Philip Voxland,
"An Album of Map Projections", USGS Professional Paper 1453. This
contains less detail on about 130 projections and variants. Formulas are
in the back, example plots in the front. $14, 250 pages.
You can order these 2 ways. The cheap, slow way is direct from USGS:
Earth Science Information Center, US Geological Survey, 507 National
Center, Reston, VA 22092. (800)-USA-MAPS. They can quote you a price and
tell you where to send your money. Expect a 6-8 week turnaround time.
A much faster way (about 1 week) is through Timely Discount Topos,
(303)-469-5022, 9769 W. 119th Drive, Suite 9, Broomfield, CO 80021. Call
them and tell them what you want. They'll quote a price, you send a
check, and then they go to USGS Customer Service Counter and pick it up
for you. Add about a $3-4 service charge, plus shipping.
A (perhaps more accessible) mapping article is:
R. Miller and F. Reddy, "Mapping the World in Pascal",
Byte V12 #14, December 1987
Contains Turbo Pascal procedures for five common map projections. A
demo program, CARTOG.PAS, and a small (6,000 point) coastline data
is available on CompuServe, GEnie, and many BBSs.
Some references for spherical trignometry are:
_Spherical Astronomy_, W.M. Smart, Cambridge U. Press, 1931.
_A Compendium of Spherical Astronomy_, S. Newcomb, Dover, 1960.
_Spherical Astronomy_, R.M. Green, Cambridge U. Press., 1985 (update
of Smart).
_Spherical Astronomy_, E Woolard and G.Clemence, Academic
Press, 1966.
PERFORMING N-BODY SIMULATIONS EFFICIENTLY
"Computer Simulation Using Particles"
R. W. Hockney and J. W. Eastwood
(Adam Hilger; Bristol and Philadelphia; 1988)
"The rapid evaluation of potential fields in particle systems",
L. Greengard
MIT Press, 1988.
A breakthrough O(N) simulation method. Has been parallelized.
L. Greengard and V. Rokhlin, "A fast algorithm for particle
simulations," Journal of Computational Physics, 73:325-348, 1987.
"An O(N) Algorithm for Three-dimensional N-body Simulations", MSEE
thesis, Feng Zhao, MIT AILab Technical Report 995, 1987
"Galactic Dynamics"
J. Binney & S. Tremaine
(Princeton U. Press; Princeton; 1987)
Includes an O(N^2) FORTRAN code written by Aarseth, a pioneer in
the field.
Hierarchical (N log N) tree methods are described in these papers:
A. W. Appel, "An Efficient Program for Many-body Simulation", SIAM
Journal of Scientific and Statistical Computing, Vol. 6, p. 85,
1985.
Barnes & Hut, "A Hierarchical O(N log N) Force-Calculation
Algorithm", Nature, V324 # 6096, 4-10 Dec 1986.
L. Hernquist, "Hierarchical N-body Methods", Computer Physics
Communications, Vol. 48, p. 107, 1988.
INTERPRETING THE FITS IMAGE FORMAT
If you just need to examine FITS images, use the ppm package (see the
comp.graphics FAQ) to convert them to your preferred format. For more
information on the format and other software to read and write it, see
the sci.astro.fits FAQ.
NEARBY STAR/GALAXY COORDINATES
To generate 3D coordinates of astronomical objects, first obtain an
astronomical database which specifies right ascension, declination, and
parallax for the objects. Convert parallax into distance using the
formula in part 6 of the FAQ, convert RA and declination to coordinates
on a unit sphere (see some of the references on planetary positions and
spherical trignometry earlier in this section for details on this), and
scale this by the distance.
Two databases useful for this purpose are the Yale Bright Star catalog
(sources listed in FAQ section 3) or "The Catalogue of Stars within 25
parsecs of the Sun", in
ftp://ftp.cs.unc.edu/pub/users/leech/FAQ/
(files stars.data and stars.doc)
A potentially useful book along these lines is:
"Proximity Zero, A Writer's Guide to the Nearest 200 Stars (A
40-Lightyear Radius)"
Terry Kepner
ISBN # 0-926895-02-8
Available from the author for $14.95 + $2.90 shipping ($5 outside US):
Terry Kepner
PO Box 481
Petersborough, NH 03458
NEXT: FAQ #5/13 - References on specific areas
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:28:28 -0500
From: "Charles Prevatte" <prevattec@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
> > Gas giants will almost certainly have moons. Moons will almost
> > certainly have large to huge amounts of water, methane, and/or
> > ammonia. Plonk a refining facility on one of the moons and you have
> > access to all the fuel you could ever want without doing dangerous
> > stunts such as diving into a gas giant's atmosphere.
>
> True - I was coming to realize that. But... :) for those systems
> where there are gas giants and no moons, comets, or other sources
> of unr.fuel and that are economically important enough, them maybe
> some kind of system would be used.
What about the "cloud city" concept? Would it be posible for a structure to
be built that could float in a Gas Giants atmosphere at a depth where it's
displaced gas mass was greater than it's mass? If it were posible then you
would have a very good platform for "gas mining". If there was also exotic
and/or industrially valuable gasses or particals in the GG atmosphere then
you could have a basis for manufacturing or at least mining of the materials
for transport to a factory. The question is, is there a altitude in a GG
that such a platforn could exist that would allow human habitation? If
there is such a place then the 'mine' could use contragravity systems to
rise to a 'depth' that would make it easy for freighters to trans ship
cargo. The mine's natural boyancy would allow it to survive if it's CG
failed providing a margin of safety.
Charles L.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:28:17 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: ropecon; sina and te
>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
>(And, there is always Ropecon,
>http://ropecon.roolipeli.net/ August 10 -August 12. Espoo, Finland.
Finland is the only country to celebrate my birthday for three days with a
convention. If I go to Finland this year (and there is some discussion
about a family visit soon, before the older generation is way too old to
enjoy it), I'll try to fit this in.
Your comments about "sina" and "te" reminded me of a story my mom told me,
that is not too far off topic, as it involves travelling, or that specific
form of travelling called immigration.
Mom moved from Finland to Canada in about 1952. She went back to Finland
for a visit in 1960. Then she went again in 1967. On that trip, she was
shocked when store clerks, bus drivers, and everybody else addressed her
as "sina" instead of "te". Her soc is only 7 or so, so she didn't have
any expectations of deferential treatment; it was just that when she grew
up and as recently as six years before, everyone had been using the formal
"te" form with people that they did not know extremely well.
Ob Traveller: Things like this can happen to travellers who return home,
or to a place they used to live, after several years' absence.
Wally: Wow, that's a big bandage. What happened to you?
Rrafrougzh: Wrell, we went to Uthith and I thought it would be nice to
visit some of my old spots. I went into the Whistle and Fang, and the
bartender said, "so what are you drinking," and I was so insulted that I
punched him. Then the bouncer and a couple of other customers jumped me
all at once, knocked me around, and threw me out on the street. The
scrape on my head is just superficial, but I lost a lot fur. It's groing
to grow in frunny for a while.
Wally: You punched him because he asked you what you wanted to drink?
Rrafrougzh: Nro, nro, I punched him becaurse he asked, "grov'err
terrach'rroull?" instead of "grow vemerr terrach'rroull," and he had never
seen me before. He was presuming too much to use "grov'err" -- but I
guess things have changed on Uthith. They're all wearing really garish
colors on the street now, too. It's gottn a lot more casual since the
Imperium occupied it after the war.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3675
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Traveller-digest Thursday, February 15 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3676
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Civility and Politeness.
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: Bangalore Torpedoes
Re: FFS versions; Bilandi for dummies
Re: [TML] Hull jump grids
Re: Population stuff
Re: Civility and Politeness.
RE: Nasty cargo bays...
RE: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Boarding craft
RE: Civility and Politeness.
RE: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: What is earths Diameter?
Re: boarding actions
Updated TML roster?
RE: Civility and Politeness.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:28:25 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
On Thu, 15 Feb 2001, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
>
> > Customs and Etiquette of the Imperial Court
> >
> > How about some examples.
> > Like be careful who you walk through, they may not be a hologram.
>
> ROTFL!
>
Could someone please either repost or mail me privately the original post
that this came from?
Either I didn't get it or it got deleted by accident.
Thanks much,
Kiri
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:28:55 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
On 15 Feb 2001, at 9:12, Mikko V. I. Parviainen wrote:
> The Finnish language has two forms of address. I do no know the terms in
> English, but these are (almost) the same as "tu" and "vous" in French.
> (The Finnish basic words are "sinä" ja "te", and "te" is also the plural
> for addressing many people. "Te" could be compared with English "you".
Russian has similar constructs and with similar usage, although I think
from what I can gather from my Russian-speaking friends it's a little
more common to use the formal when addressing someone you don't know.
The informal is more personal, and not used unless you're invited to
or have more than casual acquaintance.
> Politeness is very good. Still, it would sound (at least to me) very
> strange if someone would call everybody by "Mr. This" and "Ms. That".
> (I would probably get used to that quickly.)
I've been reading novel set in the Napoleonic era (Patrick O'Brien's
Aubrey/Maturin series, and C.S.Forester's Hornblower series) and I
like the style of speech used therein (which I take to be a fairly
accurate depiction), where politeness and social graces and functions
were more important (among the mid-to-upper-class anyway).
"Killick, send the doctor my compliments and would he be so kind as
to join me for dinner." In a ship 100-some feet long with 100+ men
crammed onboard. Orders starting "You are hereby requested and
required..." and other formalisms. I don't imagine MTU being just like
that, but I can see where it'll influence it. (Hmm, boarding parties,
cutting out expeditions, cutlasses and pikes, "Beat to quarters!",
"Clear for action!"...) But I'm digressing.
> > Please be sure, I am not some patsie or push over because I am polite.
> > I will insist on correct service from clerks for instance, but I will do so
> > with civility.
>
> That is an attitude which could be more prevalent. Many people yell at
> clerks and such, while they know that the poor clerk can't do anything
> about it.
Ho boy, that's a big one with me. My wife's a pharmacist who puts in
12-hour shifts where she has to sneak away to the bathroom and gets no
formal breaks or lunch-time, and she comes home telling me stories of
how rude, mean, vulgar and nasty some customers can be - directly
cussing *her* out because of the current medical/insurance system and
their lack of understanding/control thereof. It sends my blood
pressure up listening to her. Luckily it's not every day, but I know
I would likely be fired soon after starting there for popping someone
in the mouth (not likely with my personality) or talking back to them.
Many people are very nice, and people in general will be nice, but
there are a few and many when upset that lose all sense of civility
and empathy or compassion.
Sorry - I'll </soapbox> now.
Rob D.
- --
Rob
'Calvin, we will not have an anatomically correct snowman!'
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:30:14 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
On 15 Feb 2001, at 8:15, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> Ha! Remember that North America was mostly settled by religious fanatics,
> and that influence has stayed. The US is by far the most sexually
> repressed place I've ever seen.
>
> My first trip to Germany, as a 18 year old soldier, was a revelation.
"Puritan: someone who fears that someone, somewhere, is having fun."
Rob D.
- --
Rob
'Oops. My brain just hit a bad sector.'
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:30:49 -0600
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com>
Subject: RE: Bangalore Torpedoes
It's a not well known fact, but the AIM-54 Phoenix air to air missile is/was
nuclear-capable. (The reasoning being that they could take out a whole
squadron of Backfires instead of just one - A friend of mine's father worked
for Hughes)
The AIM-9 Sidewinder is capable of Mach 6.x, but is fairly short ranged
(6-18 miles depending on version and export license)
The AIM-7 Sparrow has similar speed characteristics, but has a longer range,
but is less maneuverable. (Again, depending on who buys it)
The AIM-54 Phoenix is capable of Mach 4.5 for most iterations, but the
latest Block Version is said to increase speed and add variable aspect
attack profiles (Shoot up and tip down)
This from Jane's...
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 12:45 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
In mail you write:
> John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>
>>Tod Glenn wrote:
>> >
>><<snip>>
>> >
>> > Somehow, I just knew that you would know the answer to this one, Mark.
>> >
>> > But, what is the airspeed of an unladen sparrow, smartguy?
>>
>>That information is classified:
>>
>>http://www.af.mil/news/factsheets/AIM_7_Sparrow.html
>>
>>However, at least one Web site has an unclassified figure of Mach 4+:
>>
>>http://www.novia.net/~tomcat/AIM-7.html
>>
>>Hope this helps! ;-)
>
> Uh, John? Unless those are training shots, they're not *UNLADEN*. :^)
Personally, I'm fond of the Genie. A missile that *had* to have been
designed by the ancestors of Familie Spofulam.
For those not familiar with it, the Genie is an unguided air-to-air
missile, about the size of a large man. It has a nuclear warhead...
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:31:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: FFS versions; Bilandi for dummies
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>>While I'm at it, if "Ziru Sirka" means "Grand Empire of
>>the Stars," what does "Naasirka" mean?
>
>"Buying the stars wholesale, selling at a 500% markup"
Not Another Asinine Solomani-Inspired Komputer Accessory
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:34:18 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Hull jump grids
>Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:01:54 -0000
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: RE: Hull jump grids
>
> >From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
> "To achive this I have a design sequence mod filched off the net that
>breaks down jump drive into its components, thus battleriders carry integral
>hull grids but all other jump components are in the tender."
>
>
>Mr. Trevor,
> While your idea is interesting, I do have a question about it.
> If the riders form the rider/tender combo's hull grid and some or all
>of the riders are lost in battle, can your tender then jump to safety?
> There is a blurb in the SMC's chapter describing the 154th Battle Rider
>Squadron. In the paragraph dealing with the carrier; "... the carrier
>serves a battle control station as well as a centralized jump dirve for the
>squadron.".
> I'm looking forward to your reply.
>
>
> Larsen
I've seen this mod on the net as well, and I rather like the way it breaks
things down. I think it's actually a very good idea for battleriders to be
equipted with the hull nets while the monstrous drive coils and the
powerplant themselves are located in the battle carrier or battle
tender. Especially considering the above quote from SMC.
Cheers
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:20:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Population stuff
In mail you write:
> On 14 Feb 2001, at 12:12, hal@buffnet.net wrote:
>
>> >Uhmm, I think you'll find that life around deep sea vents ("black
> smokers")
>> >is not sustained by photosynthesis (several km under the sea you don't
> get a
>> >lot of light or any other EM radiation for that matter) but a process
>> known
>> >as chemosynthesis. Unfortunately, I don't know enough to say how it
>> >works (presumably its some form of chemical reaction), but it is quite
>> >capable of sustaining life.
>
>> The lifeform you seem to be talking of is one that lives off of sulfur. It
>> also survives in near boiling temperatures, from which it derives its
> energy.
>
> And an entire eosystem is based around it, complete with animals up to
> shrimps in complexity. And the temperatures well exceed boiling (in the
> hundreds of degrees).
Depends on how you define "boiling". At that depth, water's boiling
point is a *lot* higher.
For that matter with enough "stuff" dissolved in it, water's boiling
point goes up a fair bit. I've worked around "baths" that had this calm
clear "water" with the surface a bit roiled by convection. And the
thermometers we used to check them registered 180 C.
They had a *lot* of NaOH & KOH dissolved in them.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:25:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
In mail you write:
>>From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
>>Just a quick question - how long does one have to be a
>>member of/subscriber to the TML before it is considered polite to refer
>>to others by their given names?
>
> It depends on who the "others" are. The relative positions of the people
> are what is important; there is no bright line. For example, Traveller
> Great Old Ones (TGOO) routinely refer to one another by personal name,
> pejorative, or "Hey Penguin-Boy", as they feel appropriate. It would not
> be a good thing for a newbie to call a TGOO "Penguin-Boy," especially when
> the TGOO is not the one who may be called Penguin-Boy. Of course, a TGOO
> may always call a newbie or any other junior person whatever he or she
> wants. There are of course as many stages between newbie and TGOO as
> there are members of the TML who are not at either stage. You have to be
> careful.
>
> Remember that forms of address are used when referred to someone as well
> as when addressing that person directly.
>
> TGOO status depends on longevity and publication.
>
> Loren and Marc are above the TGOO category, but are frequently addressed
> or referred to by personal name by TGOOs. Those junior to TGOO should
> really abase themselves in some way when addressing these august
> personages, preferably by typing while kneeling. Newbies should put the
> keyboard on the floor and kneel to type. Keep the monitor well above your
> head.
>
> Does that clarify or obfuscate?
>
> --Glenn
>
> Traveller Great Old One
So, am I a TGOO?
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:42:15 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Nasty cargo bays...
That coulda' been it too...
:)
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Mark F. Cook
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 9:05 PM
> To: Traveller Mail List
> Subject: Nasty cargo bays...
>
>
> Jesse Degraff <jedegraf@cisco.com> writes:
>
> >Ahh! I'd forgotten about the Q-ships. I remember either reading that
> >article or hearing about it, but I wasn't under the impression
> that it was a
> >corsair. What they did was take a Subsidized Merchant and make the cargo
> >bay REALLY nasty....or was that something that one of Mark
> Cook's characters
> >did....damn, I can never remember. Oh well ;)
>
> Actually, maybe you're remembering the time we opened the swimming
> pool to space (to repel a boarding party.)
>
> - Mark C.
>
> mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
> 7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
> Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
>
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:41:43 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
At 03:28 PM 02/15/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>What about the "cloud city" concept? Would it be posible for a structure to
>be built that could float in a Gas Giants atmosphere at a depth where it's
>displaced gas mass was greater than it's mass? If it were posible then you
>would have a very good platform for "gas mining". If there was also exotic
>and/or industrially valuable gasses or particals in the GG atmosphere then
>you could have a basis for manufacturing or at least mining of the materials
>for transport to a factory. The question is, is there a altitude in a GG
>that such a platforn could exist that would allow human habitation? If
>there is such a place then the 'mine' could use contragravity systems to
>rise to a 'depth' that would make it easy for freighters to trans ship
>cargo. The mine's natural boyancy would allow it to survive if it's CG
>failed providing a margin of safety.
I have a book at home that uses this idea extensively; "The Clouds of
Saturn" I believe is the title. In it, the cities are suspended under a
combination clear dome and balloon. The main combatants are rigid airships
and heavier than air craft that are also orbit capable.
It was an interesting book.
Kurt Feltenberger
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
~Stephen Decatur
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:43:15 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Boarding craft
On 15 Feb 2001, at 15:54, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Gentlemen,
>
> I have followed the "boarding" thread with great interest. Everyone's
> ideas on the subject have been most intriguing. But, absent of some amazing
> and unheard of small craft capabilites or designs, none of which have been
> posted here (even taking into account grappling arms and fast, plasma, hull
> cutters), I must fall back on HG2's prerequisites for any boarding
> attempts.
> They are:
> 1) The target ship must be incapable of maneuvering.
> 2) The target ship must have no remaining offensive weapons.
> 3) The target ship must not have a working black globe.
> 4) The target ship must have been "abandoned" by any friendly, protecting
> vessels.
>
> Any boarding attempt when none of the conditions above apply will be
> very costly for the attacking force. Unless they don't care about
> casualties, that is.
Yes, but I can imagine it being high drama / good adventure if one or
more of the 4 aren't fulfilled and the attempt must still be attempted.
(Thus discussion thereof would be useful, to me at least.)
I can see trying to board a ship that can still maneuver if sufficient
threats can be made to her crew that are believable. No help available
and we'll outrun you anyway, that kind of thing. But will the crew try
some desperate maneuvers when the boarders are at the hatches?
Rob D.
- --
Rob
In the force if Yoda so strong is, construct a sentence with words
proper order in then can't he why?
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:46:15 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
>I've been reading novel set in the Napoleonic era (Patrick O'Brien's
>Aubrey/Maturin series, and C.S.Forester's Hornblower series) and I
>like the style of speech used therein (which I take to be a fairly
>accurate depiction), where politeness and social graces and functions
>were more important (among the mid-to-upper-class anyway).
>"Killick, send the doctor my compliments and would he be so kind as
>to join me for dinner." In a ship 100-some feet long with 100+ men
>crammed onboard. Orders starting "You are hereby requested and
>required..." and other formalisms. I don't imagine MTU being just like
>that, but I can see where it'll influence it. (Hmm, boarding parties,
>cutting out expeditions, cutlasses and pikes, "Beat to quarters!",
>"Clear for action!"...) But I'm digressing.
I also have read the books from both these Series. Fantastic series of
books. If you like them might i suggest Alexander Kent's Richard Bolitho
Series. very simular to Hornblower in the fact that the main char starts out
as a midshipman. And yes these works have impacted several things i do in my
campains 8P
"beat to Quarters!"
"Bosun Rig your chains and sand the decks!"
"Run out the guns!" (for those ships equiped with retracting turrets 8P)
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:52:10 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
>I have a book at home that uses this idea extensively; "The Clouds of
>Saturn" I believe is the title. In it, the cities are suspended under a
>combination clear dome and balloon. The main combatants are rigid airships
>and heavier than air craft that are also orbit capable.
"The Clouds of Saturn" it is -- Michael McCollum is the author.
One interesting special effect of is the atmosphere of the cities, which is
a mixture of oxygen with helium (done, I guess, on the theory that there's a
big difference in weight between a city-sized dome full of nitrogen and one
filled with helium). When the main characters go to Earth, they can't
believe how silly and low-pitched their voices sound....
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:51:02 -0500
From: Michael Stasica <stosh@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
>
> >>From: "Jeff Rowse" <jeffrowse@hotmail.com>
> >>Just a quick question - how long does one have to be a
> >>member of/subscriber to the TML before it is considered polite to refer
> SNIP
> > Loren and Marc are above the TGOO category, but are frequently addressed
> > or referred to by personal name by TGOOs. Those junior to TGOO should
> > really abase themselves in some way when addressing these august
> > personages, preferably by typing while kneeling. Newbies should put the
> > keyboard on the floor and kneel to type. Keep the monitor well above your
> > head.
> SNIP
If it helps I've been reading this list for almost 3 years and I still get the
urge to drag
the keyboard out about 12 feet from the monitor on to the landing 4 steps down.
Using only cautious monitor peeks now and again to avoid a direct gaze from a
TGOO
and protect the NEW keyboard from anything that might lead to a Keyboard Kill
(tm).
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:55:57 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Re: What is earths Diameter?
Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:
>In mail you write:
>
> > Does anyone know what earths Diameter is?
> >
> > also what is our moons diameter?
>
>From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
>Newsgroups:
>sci.space.tech,sci.space.science,sci.astro,sci.answers,news.answers
>Subject: Space FAQ 04/13 - Calculations
>Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
>Date: 17 Sep 1996 15:51:28 -0400
>Expires: 22 Oct 1996 19:51:24 GMT
>Followup-To: poster
>Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
>Approved: sci-space-tech@isu.isunet.edu, news-answers-request@MIT.Edu
>Supersedes: <math_823659535@cs.unc.edu>
>
>Archive-name: space/math
>Last-modified: $Date: 96/09/17 15:40:28 $
>
> Compilation copyright (c) 1994, 1995, 1996 by Jonathan P. Leech. This
> document may be redistributed in its complete and unmodified form. Other
> use requires written permission of the author.
>
>CONSTANTS AND EQUATIONS FOR CALCULATIONS
<MAJOR *SNIP*>
Leonard, you've got *WAAAY* too much time on your hands. :^)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 12:28:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: boarding actions
In mail you write:
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> "Some of the design systems have this silly idea that the powerplant
> needs to be sized so you can run everything at once."
>
> Mr. Erickson<
Please, "Leonard", "Shadow" or "hey you"
> I'm assuming a certain recovery period necessary for the auxiliary (ie
> non-tokamak) machinery in the engine room. This assume's that our "MHD as
> topper" speculation is feasible. The MHD built "into" the tokamak would
> only provide a fraction of the electrical generation onboard. Our other
> "step down" cycles would generate the rest.
The thing is, it's hard to extract the energy *inside* the tokamak. The
configuration required for MHD power generation isn't compatible with
that needed for confined and sustaining a fusion reaction. So you'll
need to "pipe" the plasma to the MHD generator.
> For this example's sake let's assume our tokamak has scrammed.
> Engineering rushes about to restore it to operation. The ship in the
> meantime is relying in APU's and/or storage batteries for vital needs (this
> is one reason why I enjoy FF&S). The tokamak comes back up and the MHD
> picks up the ship's main bus again. But how much load can it handle?
> It will still take time to recover the "step-down" cycles and add their
> capacities to the main bus.
> So, what would be a good division of the generating capacity? Tokamak -
> 10%, secondary 90%? 25 - 75? 50 - 50?
The tokamak itself is a dead loss. It *requires* large amount of power
to work. The MHD probably generates most of the power, from simple
thermodynamics. You have multi-million degree plasma going in and
plasma at a few thosand degrees exiting. The sort of temp differential
makes for one *hell* of a conversion efficiency (I don't have the
formula for calculating the extractable energy based on input versus
output temp handy, anyone care to post it?)
The stages after that would almost be an after thought if it wasn't for
the amount of energy left to extract.
BTW, I expect that beside some sort of "battery" the startup cycle
might include a series of small turbogenerators:
1st stage: LH2 heated to normal temps and expanding
2nd stage: oxy-hydrogen combustion gas turbine
The above ought to provide enough power to get things back online in
engineering. And after the plant is running, you can take the condensed
water from the 2nd stage turbine's exhaust and crack it back to H2 and
O2 and put them back in the storage tanks.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:00:15 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Updated TML roster?
Some time back, a TML member made a roster of all the TML members
available to the rest of us.&nbsp; The list looked like this:
NAME&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
CITY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
STATE&nbsp;&nbsp; COUNTRY
Dan
Roseberry&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Hot Springs&nbsp;&nbsp; AK&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; US
William F. &quot;Wil&quot; Hostman&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Anchorage&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; AS&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
US
Jim
Moss&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Chandler&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; AZ&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
US
Bradley
Houston&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Gilbert&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
AZ&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; US
Legate
Legion&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Phoenix&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
AZ&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; US&nbsp;&nbsp;
...
<x-sigsep>

</x-sigsep>
I was just going through my copy and noticed that it was somewhat
out of date.&nbsp; For example, Tod Glenn isn't in the list.
Is the Keeper of this list still present, and is a more current copy
of
the list available? If so, I'd really list to get it.
Thanks in advance,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; - Mark C.
&nbsp;mark f. cook&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp;&nbsp; shoestring graphics &amp;
printing&nbsp;&nbsp; *&nbsp; markc@ssgfx.com
&nbsp;7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330&nbsp; *&nbsp;
http://www.ssgfx.com
&nbsp;Phone:
541-745-5709&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:07:19 -0600
From: "David C. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
For more good Napoleonic stuff, I also highly recommend the Bernard Cornwell
Sharpe's books. His historical accuracy is wonderful, and he paints a good
picture of life in the British military for Officers and Enlisted. IMTU,
the reason that the ImpMarines were the best of the best was not
equipment...it was training and esprit de corps. Nothing like training with
live FGMP-15's to let you know what they act like in a real dust-up.
DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)
ICQ PIN 1259783
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber. However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3676
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
Date: | 2/15/01 4:06:24 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Thursday, February 15 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3677
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Q ship design
Traveller convention in the UK.
Re: Q ship design
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Q ship design
Re: [TML] Hull jump grids
RE: Forms of address: a rebuttal
RE: [TML] Hull jump grids
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: boarding actions
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Q ship design
RE: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Q Ship Design
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Updated TML roster?
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Updated TML roster?
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Names
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3671
Re: Civility and Politeness.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:18:03 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
>From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
"But FFS introduced a whole host of other limiting factors such as
surface area, radiators, sensors, and other issues that HG never touched
on."
Mr. Feltenberger
Thank you for pointing that out. My next bothersome question would be
if that 400dT Q-sip design had the surface area for the aforementioned
equipment. It had (I believe) 2 PAWS, 12 offensive lasers, and 4 point
defense lasers. Will there be enough room for the fire control directors,
sensors, and other such things?
Also, I thought, again perhaps mistakenly, that FF&S1 did away with PAW
turrets. Can a ship in FF&S1 have two spinal mounts?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:24:27 -0000
From: "Charles Nicholas Walker" <cnw@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Traveller convention in the UK.
Sophonts,
Travellercon 2001
Place
Salem Community Centre.
Central Street.
(Beside the Co-op),
Hebden Bridge.
West Yorkshire.
UK
HX7-6HB.
Date April 28th and 29th 2001.
Times April 28th from 10am until 11pm
April 29th from 10am until 6pm
Admission...............................Free, and all welcome,
(but I reserve the right to eject anybody from the convention for
misbehaviour)
There is a map and hotel details on the list home page under files and or
databases thanks to Derrick
if you need to contact me my home phone number is 01484 845476 evenings and
my mobile number is 0779 6920635 however since I work in a call Centre the
mobile is normally turned off
See you all there
Nick
There is a mailing list for the convention at
Addresses:
Post message: Travelleruk@egroups.com
Subscribe: Travelleruk-subscribe@egroups.com
Unsubscribe: Travelleruk-unsubscribe@egroups.com
List owner: Travelleruk-owner@egroups.com
URL to this page: http://www.egroups.com/group/Travelleruk
Hope to see you There........all new blood welcome
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:29:33 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
At 09:18 PM 02/15/2001 +0000, you wrote:
>>From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
>
> "But FFS introduced a whole host of other limiting factors such as
>surface area, radiators, sensors, and other issues that HG never touched on."
>
>Mr. Feltenberger
> Thank you for pointing that out. My next bothersome question would
> be if that 400dT Q-sip design had the surface area for the aforementioned
> equipment. It had (I believe) 2 PAWS, 12 offensive lasers, and 4 point
> defense lasers. Will there be enough room for the fire control
> directors, sensors, and other such things?
> Also, I thought, again perhaps mistakenly, that FF&S1 did away with
> PAW turrets. Can a ship in FF&S1 have two spinal mounts?
Hehe...In FFS your ship can have *anything* you have the power, volume, and
surface area for. Multiple spinal mounts...no problemo. Other than
similar names and effects, it really is a completely different way of thinking.
Oh, and just call me Kurt. :-)
Kurt Feltenberger
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
~Stephen Decatur
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:31:33 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Antony Farrell wrote:
> Sink me, but who did his cravat?
>
> Customs and Etiquette of the Imperial Court
>
> How about some examples.
I always liked "Ser" from L.E.Modesitt's books for a gender-neutral
non-official "Sir".
How are female knights of the Imperium addressed? "Lady"? That's
boring
and possibly confused with a female non-title holding spouse/consort of
any
noble, isn't it? Or would the wife always have the female version of
her
spouse's title? Is it "Baron and Lady", or "Baron and Baroness"?
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:35:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Anthony Jackson <ajackson@molly.iii.com>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
Kurt Feltenberger writes:
> At 09:18 PM 02/15/2001 +0000, you wrote:
> >>From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
> >
> > "But FFS introduced a whole host of other limiting factors such as
> >surface area, radiators, sensors, and other issues that HG never touched
> >on."
> >Mr. Feltenberger
> > Thank you for pointing that out. My next bothersome question would
> > be if that 400dT Q-sip design had the surface area for the aforementioned
> > equipment. It had (I believe) 2 PAWS, 12 offensive lasers, and 4 point
> > defense lasers. Will there be enough room for the fire control
> > directors, sensors, and other such things?
> > Also, I thought, again perhaps mistakenly, that FF&S1 did away with
> > PAW turrets. Can a ship in FF&S1 have two spinal mounts?
>
> Hehe...In FFS your ship can have *anything* you have the power, volume, and
> surface area for. Multiple spinal mounts...no problemo. Other than
> similar names and effects, it really is a completely different way of
> thinking.
Actually, I think you can have only one full spinal mount, but you can have as
many secondary mounts (at 80% length) as you want.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:37:14 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Hull jump grids
>From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
"I've seen this mod on the net as well, and I rather like the way it
breaks things down. I think it's actually a very good idea for
battleriders to be equipted with the hull nets while the monstrous drive
coils and the powerplant themselves are located in the battle carrier or
battle tender."
Mr. McDermott,
If your riders are equipped with the hull nets and you lose some or all
to battle, is you tender then unable to jump?
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:38:14 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Forms of address: a rebuttal
You know this sounds like a great topic to write something up for traveller.
I dont know of anything that covers this. of course i could be wrong.
If this were a good subject then i would start out by reviewing actual
customs in known Kingdoms for refrencing nobility. IE the french Monarchy,
UK back then, ect.. ect..
> Sink me, but who did his cravat?
>
> Customs and Etiquette of the Imperial Court
>
> How about some examples.
>I always liked "Ser" from L.E.Modesitt's books for a gender-neutral
non-official "Sir".
>How are female knights of the Imperium addressed? "Lady"? That's
>boring
>and possibly confused with a female non-title holding spouse/consort of
>any
>noble, isn't it? Or would the wife always have the female version of
>her
>spouse's title? Is it "Baron and Lady", or "Baron and Baroness"?
>bloo
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 13:43:41 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: [TML] Hull jump grids
> "I've seen this mod on the net as well, and I rather like the way it
>breaks things down. I think it's actually a very good idea for
>battleriders to be equipted with the hull nets while the monstrous drive
>coils and the powerplant themselves are located in the battle carrier or
>battle tender."
>Mr. McDermott,
> If your riders are equipped with the hull nets and you lose some or
all
>to battle, is you tender then unable to jump?
Would be my guess that the tender has its on jump grid and that when a
Battleride Docks it "hooks" in its jump grid to the tenders. this way your
battle riders would not need a jump drive at all. and iff all the battle
riders were destroyed The tender could still jump out.
But that is my guess
Bill
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:50:28 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
>From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
"I've been reading novel set in the Napoleonic era (Patrick O'Brien's
Aubrey/Maturin series, and C.S.Forester's Hornblower series) and I like the
style of speech used therein (which I take to be a fairly
accurate depiction), where politeness and social graces and functions
were more important (among the mid-to-upper-class anyway)."
Mr. Davenport,
While I do believe the social graces were much more improtant during
that era, especially among the upper-classes, I also believe the crowded
nature of the ships had a hand in a it too.
I lived for over four years with 41 other men in a space about the size
of a one car garage. I never saw a physical fight during that time. A few
shouting matches to be sure, but no fists thrown.
We all learned to exhibit a level of decorum and civility to avoid
butchering one another. Of course those attributes usually were suspended
during port visits.
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:57:56 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: boarding actions
Leonard,
Thank you! The tokamak and MHD, while different units, could be
essentially considered a single device for the purposes of recovery. Once
the tokamak is back up, the MHD is making power. Sweet and simple.
Secondary systems could then be recovered at a relative leisure. So
what loads to the secondary systems handle, assuming the vast majority of
electrical generation is doen by the MHD?
Larsen or Bill will do very well for me.
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:06:50 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
"How are female knights of the Imperium addressed? "Lady"?
Mr. Daniels,
For the UK, the correct form of address is "Dame". The word also has
slightly negative connotations in the US being a rough equivalent of
"broad".
Which leads to a wonderful OBtrav!
"May I present the current heir to the Marquisate of Poohbah, Slattern
Gamaagin and her sister Floozy Sharik?"
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:12:20 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
>From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
"Hehe...In FFS your ship can have *anything* you have the power,
volume, and surface area for. Multiple spinal mounts...no problemo. Other
than similar names and effects, it really is a completely different way of
thinking."
"Oh, and just call me Kurt. :-)"
Kurt,
Thanks! And I really need to dig out FF&S1 again.
Bill or Larsen for me is just fine.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:26:34 -0600
From: "David C. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Subject: RE: Forms of address: a rebuttal
We just did away with the Gender form for a noble. Thus if a prominent
businessman (Gugahasha Viruska) was married to a Female who happened to hold
a Knights title (Sheela Hawthorne K.I.G) it was as this
Sir and Mister Sheela Viruska-Hawthorne K.I.G.
or
Knight Imperial Guardian and Mister Sheela Viruska-Hawthorne
The reverse would have been (Knight Samuel Hawthorne and Ms. Gugahashi
Viruska)
Sir and Madame Samuel Hawthorne K.I.G.
or
Knight Imperial Guardian and Madame Samuel Hawthorne
or potentially
Knight Imperial Guardian Samuel Hawthorne and Madame Gugahashi Viruska
The key in here was that the Noble Title always takes precedence. Thus no
matter how powerful the Man might be (Planetary Governor, etc.) his Knighted
Spouse got top billing.
Inserting Military ranks got even more fun. That was the one case where
billing was by strict adherence to protocol by rank. Thus for a civilian
function
Knight Imperial Guardian and Lieutenant Commander Sheela Hawthorne
would be
Lt Cmdr Günter Avardsen and Sir Sheela Hawthorne K.I.G.
for a military Dining Out. Our purpose was to show people that The
Imperial Nobility was the Cream of the Social Crop. Local Nobility might
even wield more power, but in status, the Imperial Title was everything.
Imperial Naval Ranks were more important then Local Nobility also. The end
result was you might be the Duke of Easterling controlling the corporate
lifeblood of an entire system, but when Sir Sid the lowest form of Imperial
Knight (IMTU Knight Imperial was the lowest, with Knight Imperial Guard the
next step up, with Knight Commanders of each order, and then about 6 more
orders until you got to Knight Commander Sylean Defender Imperial Order as
the pinnacle). But I digress, when the Duke of Easterling and Sir Sid are
invited to the local black tie affair, Sid gets the seat of honor, and Duke
Easerling gets to sit one seat away.
Hmm, this looks like a wonderful topic for a JTAS article, or even a full
supplement...GURPS, Imperial Nobles: The lifestyles of the Rich, and
Powerful. B-)
DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)
ICQ PIN 1259783
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber. However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:27:43 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Q Ship Design
Andy Akins wrote:
> 1. Thruster plates are relagated to "alternative" technology, replaced with
> HePLAR, which is a more realistic, reaction based drive system that requires
> fuel. I'm pretty sure this is a FF&S1 thing.
Actually, I found HEPlaR to be more 'unrealistic' than thruster
plates. Both break conservation of energy, but at least thruster
plates have the grace to explicitly depend on hitherto unknown laws of
physics and consequently have different behaviour. HEPLaR depends on
new laws of physics but apparently behaves in all other respects as if
they were normal rockets.
Their other failing is, of course, that they make for annoying
bookkeeping.
> 3. 100-ton jump displacement requirement gone.
:) I won't comment much on this one.
> 6. Effective small PAs (turrets, small bays) gone.
Why this change? At the very least, it would appear to be pretty easy
(though maybe an engineering challenge) to generate the beam inside
the ship and redirect it through a turret for aiming.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:05:24 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
Leonard Erickson wrote:
>> Does that clarify or obfuscate?
>>
>> --Glenn
>>
>> Traveller Great Old One
>
>
> So, am I a TGOO?
Leonard, you are one of the TGOOiest members of the list.
Heck, compared to you, Penguin Boy is a still a stripling TGOO. (but one
showing great promise: "There is much strength in that one...")
Maybe there are people with longer TML tenure who are still about, but
they post only rarely. Maybe Hans has been around that long, I'd have to
examine my back issues of TML to be sure.
(I can remember when Doug happened upon our list, unless he's been on
before under a different name...I've only been around since the
traveller@engrg.uwo.edu days I don't think it was when the list was
coming out of spectraphysics, and there were very few bang addresses
left on the list when I first subscribed.)
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:09:52 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Updated TML roster?
Mark F. Cook wrote:
> Some time back, a TML member made a roster of all the TML members
> available to the rest of us. The list looked like this:
>
> NAME CITY STATE COUNTRY
> Dan Roseberry Hot Springs AK US
> William F. "Wil" Hostman Anchorage AS US
> Jim Moss Chandler AZ US
> Bradley Houston Gilbert AZ US
> Legate Legion Phoenix AZ US
> ...
>
> I was just going through my copy and noticed that it was somewhat
> out of date. For example, Tod Glenn isn't in the list.
>
> Is the Keeper of this list still present, and is a more current copy of
> the list available? If so, I'd really list to get it.
That would be Eris, at his web site: http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr/#roster
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:16:04 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Charles Prevatte wrote:
>
> What about the "cloud city" concept? Would it be posible for a
> structure to be built that could float in a Gas Giants atmosphere at
> a depth where it's displaced gas mass was greater than it's mass?
With a lot of difficulty, I think. Gas giant atmospheres will be
mostly hydrogen, with some relatively small amount of helium (and
traces of other constituents). That means that whatever you fill the
buoyancy envelope with must be less dense. There aren't a lot of
things less dense than a gas consisting almost entirely of hydrogen.
You could use the surounding atmosphere, and heat it up. You would
have to expend large amounts of power to replace heat loss. Not easy,
but possible. If the generators failed, the facility would slowly
sink into the abyss as it cooled. Probably giving enough time for the
crew to try to repair the power systems or leave, though.
If using pressure, you have some extreme engineering problems to worry
about -- how do you safely maintain a pressure differential without
the walls being so heavy that they overcome any lift you can get out
of it? I think this option is a non-starter with any sane
extrapolation of materials technology.
Removing all the heavier gases from the envelope and just using pure
hydrogen would be wise in either case.
Now, the size of the gasbag would probably be incredible. Assume you
removed all the helium (about 10%) and used natural bouyancy at (say)
the 1 atm level (simplifying the design of the human-habitable
section). The temperature at that level will vary depending upon
location and the gas giant's orbit and other factors. Jupiter's
atmosphere has a temperature of about 150 K at this level and a
density of about 0.15 kg/m^3. Pure hydrogen at this pressure and
temperature has a density of about 0.014 kg/m^3 less. That 14 grams
per cubic metre is the amount of lift you get from composition alone.
Now, heating the envelope gives much better lift. If you can maintain
a temperature of 300 K (about room temperature), you get about 5 times
as much bouyancy (70 g/m^3). Much more than that isn't really
necessary or desirable -- you would need to increase the temperature
to 600 K just to get 50% more lift, and you will never get more than
twice the lift. In addition to the station, you have to support the
weight of the envelope including any internal structure it might need
for puncture-resistance, strength, and heat insulation.
If the station has an average density of about 100 kg/m^3, the balloon
would need to have at least 1500 times more volume, probably more like
4000-5000 after allowing for envelope weight and a safety margin. One
good thing is that surface area (and hence heat loss) increases more
slowly with diameter than volume does. This means that the balloon
will need relatively less power plant to maintain temperature as its
size increases. At least fusion fuel is readily available :)
The idea is almost certainly feasible. Very nontrivial though, and
there are still some remaining concerns.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:17:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>So, am I a TGOO?
I think -- someone correct me if I'm wrong -- that the standard is that
you had to be on the Traveller Mailing List before it was on mpgn.com, and
that you have published something for Traveller on paper media
(supplement, article, adventure, etc.).
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:26:18 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Paul Drye wrote:
> > In it, the cities are suspended under a combination clear dome and
> >balloon.
> One interesting special effect of is the atmosphere of the cities,
> which is a mixture of oxygen with helium (done, I guess, on the
> theory that there's a big difference in weight between a city-sized
> dome full of nitrogen and one filled with helium).
Absolutely! As it is, the idea would depend on either a huge pressure
outside (meaning the dome has to be *extremely* strong and tough), or
extreme cold outside (meaning lots of heat generating ability).
Not a bad idea for a nice fictional image, though in practice I think
depending on a huge dome is a very bad idea. A dome can break in one
place and the whole thing falls; I'd rather lots of smaller lift units
so that if a few break the rest can still maintain most of the lift.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:31:31 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Updated TML roster?
On Thu, Feb 15, 2001 at 01:00:15PM -0800, Mark F. Cook wrote:
[no text, just HTML]
Have you sent other HTML-only email messages? I only accidentally
turned off my spam-filter yesterday, so if you've sent any messages
without plain text before then I won't have seen them.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:46:26 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
> How are female knights of the Imperium addressed? "Lady"? That's
> boring and possibly confused with a female non-title holding
spouse/consort
> of any noble, isn't it? Or would the wife always have the female
version
> of her spouse's title? Is it "Baron and Lady", or "Baron and
Baroness"?
I believe that "Dame" is the proper title for a female knight.
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
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------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:55:11 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Names
In a message dated 14-Feb-01 9:00:19 PM Central Standard Time, Glenn writes:
> Loren and Marc are above the TGOO category, but are frequently addressed
> or referred to by personal name by TGOOs. Those junior to TGOO should
> really abase themselves in some way when addressing these august
> personages, preferably by typing while kneeling. Newbies should put the
> keyboard on the floor and kneel to type. Keep the monitor well above your
> head.
In Marc's case, protocol calls for the TML member to kiss the screen and
kowtow seven times each time his name appears. In my case, you must make sure
your eyes are never higher than my name, and must kneel and touch your
forehead to the keyboard the first time my name is seen.
Because I am merciful, however always sign off
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:57:39 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3671
Hal saith:
> Instead of making it
> where one individual creates the Imperium, have a group of people working
> on things within the guidelines of the game rules. In a way, a sort of
> TRAVELLER 2300 grand game kind of thing.
This is known as "designing by committee" and almost never works. Even at
GDW, where all of us were involved in everything to a greater or lesser
degree, we had one person in overall charge.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:04:52 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 08:34:15 -0500 (EST), "Jeff Rowse"
<jeffrowse@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Just a quick question - how long does one have to be a member of/subscriber
>to the TML before it is considered polite to refer to others by their given
>names? And what other factors affect the timescale?
>I mean, Mr. Whipsnade is still calling people Mr or Ms (or whatever other
>honorific is appropriate) despite several posts that are - IMnot-soHO - both
>thought-provoking and inciteful, whereas certain other people (who should
>remain nameless but I probably won't) seem to have set themselves dismally
>low standards and consistently failed to achieve them, with respect to (wrt)
>actually contributing anything really useful to most people.
I've never felt that it was a matter of time or quality of posts; for me,
it was simply a question of 'what does the local culture expect?' and 'what
do I feel comfortable doing?'. The TML, to me, never seemed to stand on
formality, so in general, neither do I. If _I_ resort to formal language,
chances are that someone has done something that extremely micturated me -
I think so far there's only one person who ever rated a "Mr" from me on
that score, and I'm not the only one that's micturated. Note that I say
'chances are'; it's not impossible that I will be doing it to reciprocate
(as would be the case in Mr Whipsnade's case) or because it adds to a
'quirky humor' situation. Go by context.
>Oh, and I'd also like to know exactly how 'we' stand with wrt 'dry' keyboard
>kills; I *always* make sure I am 'coffee-less' before reading the TML...
I do that also (no fluids, programming or otherwise, while reading news or
mail). When something is funny enough, I award a 'virtual' kill, and
generally don't note that it's virtual.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3678
Date: | 2/15/01 7:01:35 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Thursday, February 15 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3678
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Landmine clearing...
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Re : boarding actions
Xboat List
Re: Xboat List
Re: Landmine clearing...
Re: [TML] Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: [TML] Hull jump grids
Re: Q ship design
Looking for...
RE: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Q Ship Design
RE: Deep Gas (was RE: Deep Space Jumps)
Re: Civility and Politeness.
RE: Civility and Politeness.
RE: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Q ship design
Re: [TML] Hull jump grids
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: [TML] Forms of address: a rebuttal
RE: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Q ship design
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:16:42 -0500
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
Glenn Goffin wrote:
>I think -- someone correct me if I'm wrong -- that the standard is that
>you had to be on the Traveller Mailing List before it was on mpgn.com, and
>that you have published something for Traveller on paper media
>(supplement, article, adventure, etc.).
Hmmm. When did the list move to mpgn.com? ISTR the list moving at least once since I joined up. I've been here off&on since c. 1993-4; I distinctly remember the pre-xboat days when the pro- & anti-TNE crowds used to get pretty rowdy.
That paper media one's a little trickier; makes me wish I'd submitted articles to the Traveller Chronicle or the IG JTAS when I had the chance...
Trent
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:17:05 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Landmine clearing...
On 14 Feb 2001, at 20:55, Mark F. Cook wrote:
> I'll stand by my original statement. For the over-pressure to kill (or maim), it
> has to be able to get to you. A nice thick rebar-reinforced, concrete bunker
> does a pretty good job of preventing that. Even if there are (firing) ports
> open to the outside, all the external pressure has to come in focused through
> those openings, which dramatically reduces it's strength and, thus, it's
> lethality.
It takes a surprising amount of overpressure to kill a person. IIRC there was a
man in WWII who had the misfortune to be about 10' from a german parachute bomb
(a blast weapon) that had got cuaght up in a lamp-post when it went off. He had
extensive bruising where the blast threw him into the gutter, and and bruised
lung tissue in all the spaces between his ribs, but was Ok after a couple of
weeks recuperating. OTOH the building front he was walking past was reduced to
rubble.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:30:07 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
On 14 Feb 2001, at 15:13, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Mr. Rowse,
> If I may hazard a guess in this situation, the polite form of address shold
> be used until the addressee invites the addesser to use a more familiar one.
> Hence, the happy members of the Bay Area group, Ms. Morgan, Mr. Berry, Mr.
> Schwartz, et. al.,who have all met one another socially, use more familiar terms
> when addressing each another.
> Ms. Morgan's musings that I am simply following the standards of
> politeness found outside the US are correct.
Not everywhere! :) Here in New Zealand it's common (though less so than it used
to be) for someone to introduce themselves or be introduced as just "Rupert",
or "Ian". It's also not uncommon for it to take years, or seeing a piece of
formal paperwork for you to find out what a person's sirname is.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:38:47 +0000
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Re : boarding actions
Hi Dr. O'Connor!
Actually... my comment was directed towards the original post, as a
brief explanation of why such a pressurized steam jet would not be
practical. Or at least would have no advantages over any current
surgical procedure.
Regards,
Doug :-)
Robert O'Connor wrote:
>
> Doug C. wrote :-
> > Of course in a surgical amputation...
> > The last thing you can have is "cooked meat"... er.. tissue at the
> > distal end of the limb. In the procedure any such tissue would have
> > to be excised prior to closing the wound.
> >
> > Doug C. (EMTP, BTLS-I)
>
> I wrote :-
> >> The steam would certainly sterilise the raw end (among other
> >> things), but the technique would seem to have little or no advantage
> >> over traditional tools in skilled hands in theatre conditions.
>
> I'm well aware of the need for generous debridement with the typical
> traumatic amputation. At least the steam would reduce the risk of post-op
> infection a little.
>
> Dr. Robert O'Connor
> (an Anaesthesia/ICU trainee)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:54:21 +0000
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Xboat List
Can anyone tell me...
Is the old xboat (CT) list still around?
If so, can any tell me the subscription address?
Thanks,
Doug C.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:55:48 -0500
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com
Subject: Re: Xboat List
Doug C. wrote:
> Can anyone tell me...
>Is the old xboat (CT) list still around?
>If so, can any tell me the subscription address?
The xboat list no longer exists per se, but really THIS is the old xboat list. Once TNE was no longer 'current' the CT grognards reasserted their authority and all those newfangled TNE-types fled to the tne-rces list. Of recent rules-related discussions, I'd put CT a close second to G:T, especially since the re-prints hit.
Trent
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:04:49 -0800
From: "Tod Glenn" <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Landmine clearing...
> It takes a surprising amount of overpressure to kill a person. IIRC there
was a
> man in WWII who had the misfortune to be about 10' from a german parachute
bomb
> (a blast weapon) that had got cuaght up in a lamp-post when it went off.
He had
> extensive bruising where the blast threw him into the gutter, and and
bruised
> lung tissue in all the spaces between his ribs, but was Ok after a couple
of
> weeks recuperating. OTOH the building front he was walking past was
reduced to
> rubble.
It really all depends. My wife (an explosives expert) related the story of
a huge balst in an Israeli town. Some distance away, a boby builder working
out on his roof was killed by reflected pressure wave. weird.
Tod
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:01:05 -0500
From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Forms of address: a rebuttal
>Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:31:33 -0600
>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
>Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
>I always liked "Ser" from L.E.Modesitt's books for a gender-neutral
>non-official "Sir".
In an online game I was a part of once, formal address was 'Ser' for males
and 'Sa' for ladies. In that particular culture, I guess that would be
equivalent to having gender-specific 'tovarisch' or 'comrade' or 'citizen'
"titles." They were also used as simple replacement for 'Mr.' and 'Ms.'
- ---
==============================================================
Jonathan McDermott http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@
- ------------------------------------------------------------
"Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."
-Steve Wozniak
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:03:23 -0500
From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Hull jump grids
>Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:37:14 -0000
>From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: [TML] Hull jump grids
>
> >From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
> "I've seen this mod on the net as well, and I rather like the way it
>breaks things down. I think it's actually a very good idea for
>battleriders to be equipted with the hull nets while the monstrous drive
>coils and the powerplant themselves are located in the battle carrier or
>battle tender."
>
>Mr. McDermott,
> If your riders are equipped with the hull nets and you lose some or all
>to battle, is you tender then unable to jump?
>
>
> Larsen
I would say that they aren't. The tender would need the ability to bring
itself through jumpspace without the riders. The riders just need the hull
net to extend the jump-bubble around themselves; otherwise, the tender's
jump-bubble cuts a couple of meters into the riders and we don't want to
find out what happens then. =)
Cheers
- ---
==============================================================
Jonathan McDermott http:\\caraig.home.mindspring.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------
IMTU tc+ tn t4 ge++ -3i+ c+(**) jt pi+ va+ dr+ pr+ zh+() so@
- ------------------------------------------------------------
"Never trust a computer you can't throw out a window."
-Steve Wozniak
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:09:23 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
Larsen wrote:
>>>http://www.csd.uu.se/~paho9211/trav/ships/400dt_qship.html
>>for a direct link (bypassing frames)
>
>
>Gentlemen,
> Will some one take a peek at this design and comment on it. I am
no
>longer familiar with FF&S (haven't design a ship with it in +4 years).
> I'd like the comment to especially focus on how 400dT ship can
mount 2
>PAWs, 14 lasers, and 2 PD lasers.
> Thanks in advance.
FF&S changed the weapons limitations rules. It was no longer based on
ship size but on available surface area and power available.
Standard turrets for FF&S 1&2 are 3dTons. I cannot duplicate the
statistics, but, the 14 lasers appear to be 2dTon so these are smaller
than normal. The PD lasers (there are actually 16 of these, not 2)
appear to be 1/3dTon each.
The configuration produces 2202 m^2 of surface area.
the 14 lasers require 107.66m^2 total
the 16 PD lasers require ~+- 77.26m^2
so there is plenty of surface area available.
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:38:29 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Looking for...
Hello Folks,
Would anyone by chance know Christopher Thrash's Email address? Jim
Maclean's? Steve Daniels? I would appreciate being able to contact them
via email if possible...
Thanks
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:41:40 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Forms of address: a rebuttal
From: "David C. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
"Local Nobility might even wield more power, but in status, the
Imperial Title was everything."
Mr. Broussard,
I thouroughly enjoyed your ideas on forms of address concerning noble
titles. Especially the idea of Imperial precedence over local honors. It
could make for some nice, light roleplaying; ie: not involving the usual
gunfights, when different parties get snarky over precedence during a formal
function.
The Imperial precedence rule should make for some fun too. Imagine a
planetary ruler who is also a member of your K.I.G. order. He would be
referred to as "Sir King-Emperor Ralph the 33rd, Defender of the Faith,
Protector of the planet Freedonia, KIG".
Now that will throw your PCs a curve!
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:49:19 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Q Ship Design
Andy Akins (creator of the Great and All Powerful FF&S2 spreadsheet)
wrote:
>1. Thruster plates are relagated to "alternative" technology, replaced
with
>HePLAR, which is a more realistic, reaction based drive system that
requires
>fuel. I'm pretty sure this is a FF&S1 thing.
FF&S1, brought back in FF&S2
>2. Hard point requirements for weapons gone.
FF&S1 and 2
IMTU Civilian ships can have no more than 1 hardpoint / 100dTon, above
this requires special licencing.
>3. 100-ton jump displacement requirement gone.
FF&S1, 100dTon limit brought back in FF&S2
>4. Repulsors gone.
FF&S1 & 2 allowed at TL16
>5. HEW (High energy weapons, plasma and fusion) gone.
allowed in both BUT NOT effective for ship combat.
>6. Effective small PAs (turrets, small bays) gone.
FF&S1, somewhat effective in FF&S2
>7. _much_ more detail added on things like controls, sensors, life
support,
>defences, and gizmos of various kinds.
YES, YES, YES
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:55:17 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Deep Gas (was RE: Deep Space Jumps)
On 15 Feb 01, at 15:28, Charles Prevatte wrote:
> What about the "cloud city" concept? Would it be posible for a structure to
> be built that could float in a Gas Giants atmosphere at a depth where it's
> displaced gas mass was greater than it's mass? If it were posible then you
> would have a very good platform for "gas mining". If there was also exotic
> and/or industrially valuable gasses or particals in the GG atmosphere then
> you could have a basis for manufacturing or at least mining of the materials
> for transport to a factory. The question is, is there a altitude in a GG
> that such a platforn could exist that would allow human habitation? If
> there is such a place then the 'mine' could use contragravity systems to
> rise to a 'depth' that would make it easy for freighters to trans ship
> cargo. The mine's natural boyancy would allow it to survive if it's CG
> failed providing a margin of safety.
Interesting idea. I have no idea about the mechanics necessary
though.
My big concern would the 100s-kph winds and storms. Maybe some GGs
aren't that stormy, or maybe the facility could stay up in relatively
safe rarified altitude, but too far down would be trouble.
Rob D.
- --
Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net
Millihelen: amount of beauty required to launch one ship.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:50:14 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
On 15 Feb 01, at 21:50, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Mr. Davenport,
"Rob" is fine, please.
> While I do believe the social graces were much more improtant during
> that era, especially among the upper-classes, I also believe the crowded
> nature of the ships had a hand in a it too.
> I lived for over four years with 41 other men in a space about the size
> of a one car garage. I never saw a physical fight during that time. A few
> shouting matches to be sure, but no fists thrown.
> We all learned to exhibit a level of decorum and civility to avoid
> butchering one another. Of course those attributes usually were suspended
> during port visits.
A very good point, thanks.
So you had that many in that small an area? How many bunks? How
many slept at a time?
After reading Hornblower,et al., I wonder about the crew space
requirements in Trav. Are there options in (B2/HG2/FFS1/FFS2) for
multi-person arrangements such as that, or does everyone get a
stateroom (or double up in one)?
Rob D.
- --
Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net
I am Homer of Borg -- resistance is futile... oooh doughnuts!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:03:48 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
On 15 Feb 01, at 12:46, William Lane wrote:
> I also have read the books from both these Series. Fantastic series of
> books. If you like them might i suggest Alexander Kent's Richard Bolitho
> Series. very simular to Hornblower in the fact that the main char starts out
> as a midshipman. And yes these works have impacted several things i do in my
> campains 8P
>
> "beat to Quarters!"
> "Bosun Rig your chains and sand the decks!"
> "Run out the guns!" (for those ships equiped with retracting turrets 8P)
Big :)
Mr. Kent's books are on my To Read list. As are a number of others
I've found at the Nautical Fiction List:
http://www.boat-links.com/books/nfl/nautfic-01.html
(not sure if that's the canonical site, but I think it's posted
periodically to rec.arts.books).
David Weber's Honor Harrington series (which I'm also reading) is
an interesting blend of Napoleonic Navy and SF (he dedicates the
first book to C.S.Forester). I quite liked the first one, decent
explanations of the tech and social stuff in the milieu (except
perhaps how they duplicated 18th/19th c. British governmental and
military customs). And I don't know about their ships - able to
accelerate at 500+g's! (Some damn good inertia compensators)
The marines seem intelligent and get a fair amount of the story.
Overall very good.
Rob D.
- --
Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum!
Don't you dare erase my hard disk!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:05:46 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
On 15 Feb 01, at 15:07, David C. Broussard wrote:
> For more good Napoleonic stuff, I also highly recommend the Bernard Cornwell
> Sharpe's books. His historical accuracy is wonderful, and he paints a good
> picture of life in the British military for Officers and Enlisted. IMTU,
> the reason that the ImpMarines were the best of the best was not
> equipment...it was training and esprit de corps. Nothing like training with
> live FGMP-15's to let you know what they act like in a real dust-up.
Thank you Mr. Broussard. I've known of "Sharpe" books from my father
and in the library but hadn't recalled them til now, I'll add them to
my list. :)
I like that view of the Imperial Marines as well.
Rob D.
- --
Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net
'A lot of people mistake a short memory for a clear conscience.'
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:09:37 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
"FF&S changed the weapons limitations rules. It was no longer based on
ship size but on available surface area and power available.
Standard turrets for FF&S 1&2 are 3dTons. I cannot duplicate the
statistics, but, the 14 lasers appear to be 2dTon so these are smaller
than normal. The PD lasers (there are actually 16 of these, not 2)
appear to be 1/3dTon each.
The configuration produces 2202 m^2 of surface area:
the 14 lasers require 107.66m^2 total
the 16 PD lasers require ~+- 77.26m^2
So there is plenty of surface area available."
Mr. Hensley,
Thank you, sir, for taking your time to fully explain this one to me.
I really MUST dig out FF&S1 again.
I believe the last time I used it was to design a brace of low tech
"elephant gun" style weapons for the locals on a world with megafauna along
the lines of our Pliocene era.
My current fixation with all the fun going at the "ct-starships" group
has made me a bit of a "HG-ist", much to my detriment I must admit.
It's time to reacquaint myself with a few other design systems and this
Q-ship affair has been the catalyst.
If I may ask one additional favor Mr. Hensley? Could you point me
towards an URL for "wet navy" designs in general and those on rotary sails
in particular? Another member of the list did give an URL for some of this,
but rotary sails were covered there.
My thanks in advance.
Larsen
P.S. My many thanks to all the other folks who repsonded to my questions
during this thread. I did not mean to stint any of you of praise.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:19:07 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] Hull jump grids
From: "Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott" <caraig@mindspring.com>
"I would say that they aren't. The tender would need the ability to
bring itself through jumpspace without the riders. The riders just need the
hull net to extend the jump-bubble around themselves; otherwise, the
tender's jump-bubble cuts a couple of meters into the riders and we don't
want to find out what happens then. =)"
Mr. McDermott,
Thanks for your explanation and I must say that I enjoy it! My
inability to "grind it" out myself simply re-enforces the fact that I've
been unable to "think outside the box" of late. It may be time for a
vacation.
The idea that the jump field is extended by allowing the riders to
"plug" their grid into the tender's wraps the whole problem up with a
minimum of fuss or additional applications of "handwavium". It's simple,
easy to grasp (for some), and provides a tidy solution.
Thanks again.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:19:45 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
Glenn Goffin wrote:
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>>So, am I a TGOO?
>
>I think -- someone correct me if I'm wrong -- that the standard is that
>you had to be on the Traveller Mailing List before it was on mpgn.com,
and
>that you have published something for Traveller on paper media
>(supplement, article, adventure, etc.).
I'm almost there just need a little more time ;-)
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:22:18 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: [TML] Forms of address: a rebuttal
On 15 Feb 01, at 20:01, Jonathan 'Caraig' McDermott wrote:
> In an online game I was a part of once, formal address was 'Ser' for males
> and 'Sa' for ladies. In that particular culture, I guess that would be
> equivalent to having gender-specific 'tovarisch' or 'comrade' or 'citizen'
> "titles." They were also used as simple replacement for 'Mr.' and 'Ms.'
Interestingly, IIRC, the 19th c. Russian terms "gaspadin"/"gaspazha",
used to address the landed classes, fell out of favor after the
revolution, replaced by "tovarisch", and now is coming back into
style as terms were needed/wanted equivalent to "Mr." and "Mrs.".
Rob D.
- --
Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net
When women hold off from marrying men, we call it independence.
When men hold off from marrying women, we call it fear of commitment.
-- Warren Farrell (American Psychologist)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:44:47 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
At 09:03 PM 2/15/01 -0500, Robert Davenport wrote:
>David Weber's Honor Harrington series (which I'm also reading) is
>an interesting blend of Napoleonic Navy and SF (he dedicates the
>first book to C.S.Forester). I quite liked the first one, decent
>explanations of the tech and social stuff in the milieu (except
>perhaps how they duplicated 18th/19th c. British governmental and
>military customs). And I don't know about their ships - able to
>accelerate at 500+g's! (Some damn good inertia compensators)
>The marines seem intelligent and get a fair amount of the story.
>Overall very good.
I've always been extremely fond of A Bertram Chandler's John Grimes
series. Chandler was an Australian (originally English) merchant-marine
skipper who killed time on long voyages by writing SF, and the books are
*very* heavily flavoured by both the Australian and the merchant-marine
aspects of Chandler's own life.
And I've been a great fan of Alexander Kent, too, since seventh grade. (34
years ago - omigod....)
James
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:54:24 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
At 08:50 PM 2/15/01 -0500, Rob Davenport wrote:
>After reading Hornblower,et al., I wonder about the crew space
>requirements in Trav.
Ha. On a 688, I get a rack which is just long enough that I can touch the
far end with my toes when I stretch, and has just enough space for me to
turn over without brushing my shoulders against the bunk light. It's the
top rack in a tier of three, and there are thirteen such tiers in aft
berthing - thirty-nine bunks total, though with hot-rackers there are
usually around 42-44 people living in that space. (A 688 has 117
ipermanently installed racks - including the extra bunk in the XO's
stateroom, used only by the occasional senior rider - for a crew of around
135.) Under the mattress is the coffin locker, which is the width and
length of said mattress, and maybe four inches deep; this, plus a small
locker about the size of two shoeboxes, is all the space I have in which to
keep my personal belongings under way (whether for a few days or for a
six-month deployment).
I find the Traveller concept of small staterooms totally amazing....
8) (Someday I'll have to compute the actual volume of one of the wardroom
staterooms, which are shared by three officers - roughly 6' x 6' x 8'.)
James
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:03:15 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
>
> "Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> > I have never seen a copy of T4's FF&S2. Have the hardpoint limits
> > and requirements been done away with? With HG2, 4 hardpoints would
> > available.
>
> What limit? I have never seen FFS1. Since there is no such limit in
> FFS2, I assume the answer to your question is "yes, the hardpoint limits
> have been done away with"
>
> Good thing too. Seems like an unrealistic limit. If the weapons fit and
> can be operated/powered/crewed, they should be allowed.
IMHO, the HG2 limit of one hardpoint per 100 dtons not dedicated to
other weaponry (as well as other tonnage-based armament limits) is
primarily a game-balance mechanism, made necessary by HG's ignoring both
the mass of various ship fittings and the surface area requirements of
such fittings.
Since FF&S (both 1 and 2) are both mass- and volume-based, and include
surface area requirements, they don't need an artificial limit to
balance ship designs. A shipwright must balance the contradictory
demands of acceleration, jump range, weapons, armor, and other
facilities to achieve a useful design.
For instance, we at AuricTech Shipyards tend to prioritize ship
characteristics as follows (in approximate order, from most to least
important): performance (both n-space and jump), sensor range,
habitability (very few AuricTech ships use double-occupancy staterooms
or bunks), armor, weapons, and small craft capacity, with the exact
order of these characteristics depending on the mission of the ship in
question. (Note that these priorities tend to drive prices _way_ up.)
Other firms, such as Gridlore Technologies, Dimashq Shipyards, and
Famille Spofulam have different design philosophies. None of these is
wrong, yet none of these yards would approach a design in quite the
high-capability, high-cost way that AuricTech does.
<<snip>>
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3678
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3679
Date: | 2/15/01 9:23:53 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Friday, February 16 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3679
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Population stuff
RE: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Q ship design
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Civility and Politeness.
RE: Deep Gas (was RE: Deep Space Jumps)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Civility and Politeness.
RE: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
RE: Civility and Politeness.
RE: Civility and Politeness.
Starship Bunking (was: Re: Civility and Politeness)
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3672
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3671
Re: TGOOs
Re: Q ship design
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:08:15 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Population stuff
Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
<<snip>>
>
> For that matter with enough "stuff" dissolved in it, water's boiling
> point goes up a fair bit. I've worked around "baths" that had this calm
> clear "water" with the surface a bit roiled by convection. And the
> thermometers we used to check them registered 180 C.
>
> They had a *lot* of NaOH & KOH dissolved in them.
^^^^
That's a lye, and you know it! ;-)
Although perhaps I shouldn't post such a caustic note....
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:22:06 -0600
From: "David C. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
As I think of it, another good Sci-Fi book about British Naval customs from
the Napoleonic era is the Hope Series by David Fientuch. Midshipman's Hope
is the first of about 6 now. Good books.
DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)
ICQ PIN 1259783
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber. However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 21:23:50 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
Anthony Jackson wrote:
>
<<snip>>
>
> Actually, I think you can have only one full spinal mount, but you can have as
> many secondary mounts (at 80% length) as you want.
Indeed. Note that the _Montana_-class battleship mounts one spinal
mount NPAW, but the each of the eight secondary NPAW mounts would serve
nicely ("Nicely-nicely, thank you!") as a cruiser's spinal mount.
Another AuricTech design, the _Cleveland_-class cruiser, mounts four
meson guns and two NPAWS, all of which are large enough to be considered
"spinal" mounts for a cruiser-sized vessel.
Weapons aren't limited to spinal (only one per ship), bays (50 or 100
dton), and turrets anymore. Mwaaa-haa-ha!
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 03:20:56 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
"So you had that many in that small an area? How many bunks? How
many slept at a time? After reading Hornblower,et al., I wonder about the
crew space requirements in Trav. Are there options in (B2/HG2/FFS1/FFS2)
for multi-person arrangements such as that, or does everyone get a stateroom
(or double up in one)?"
Rob,
The lack of berthing areas in any Trav design systems has always
puzzled me too. In the very few deckplans I've drawn, I've simply used the
tonnage alloted to those staterooms and used it to create berthing and rec
areas aboard. Junior officers slept 2 to a stateroom (in bunks) and seniors
got a single.
42 men in my divsion slept in our berthing area. Our head, one deck
above, had 2 commodes and 2 urinals (flushed with seawater), 2 showers and 4
sinks. The racks were stacked 3 high, not too bad when considering that
they were stacked higher in WW2. We also had a smaller area next to the
head that held 9 men and was called "9 man" (not very original). Senior
members of our division slept there.
Engineering was always undermanned, usually somewhere around the
mid-80% range, so there were berthing areas on the ship not filled to
capacity. I don't remember more than 1 or 2 empty racks at any given time.
If we'd been at 100%, others in our division would have slept elsewhere.
Undermanning meant that we normally stood "Six and sixes", 6 hours on
watch and six hours off as long as the reactors were up. Add that to your
maintenance and training duties and there wasn't much time for anythig else.
I finally got to stand "four and eights" during my last 18 months or so
after qualifying for senior watch posisitons. The watches were shared with
the E7+ personnel. They slept in chief's berthing and only stacked two
high.
While underway, berthing was lit with red lights to allow the guys to
sleep, except for the few hours it was being clean. Other than the 8 hour
work day, half the division was tryinf to sleep at any given time.
Laundry was stored in two huge lockers and taken to the ship's laundry
twice a week. You might try and imagine what the socks, skivvies, t-shirts,
pants, shirt, sheets, and towels for 42 men for 4 days smells like. My
father, who once enjoyed a foxhole in Korea, described his impression of a
visit to berthing rather succintly. All he said was "Feet and farts". He
also said he'd prefer the foxhole.
On the other side of the forward bulkhead was #2 engine room, both
propeller shafts ran beneath the compartment, and an emergency diesel was
just aft. The area was a "hazardous noise area" underway, requiring ear
plugs. It was finally lined with sound proof materials on the bulkheads
during my 3rd year there. Our commodes got stalls around them at the same
time.
With engineroom "next door", men could wake up and list the the
equipment change overs and drill sets run in #2 ER during their sleep.
Your rack was also your locker. The mattress, about 2" thick, sat atop
the locker's lid. The locker itself was 8-10" deep and divided into a few
compartments and a drawer. The rack measured about 6' by 2' and a reading
lamp hung above it. "Privacy" was provided by a set of curtains. You had
another locker, similar to the ones in your high school gym, for additional
storage.
My division was fortunate to have our office directly below our
berthing area. It was tucked between the two shafts and let us watch TV,
play games, write letters, etc. without bothering those asleep. We were
lucky to have it.
One side of our berthing area was formed by the ship's hull. During
our many "visits" 12 miles off Kamchatka, ice would form on that bulkhead.
Especially rough seas could toss men out of their racks despite our being
below the waterline. During our visit to the Persian Gulf, the area was
ventilated, but not air conditioned. Occasional bursts of sand would come
through the vents. The heat made it more comfortable to sleep on the
linoleuum deck rather than your rack.
I hope this all ddin't bore you. But I figured I might as well provide
as many details as possible, so you can pick up some for your campaigns.
Have fun.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:28:33 -0800
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
>So you had that many in that small an area? How many bunks? How
>many slept at a time?
>After reading Hornblower,et al., I wonder about the crew space
>requirements in Trav. Are there options in (B2/HG2/FFS1/FFS2) for
>multi-person arrangements such as that, or does everyone get a
>stateroom (or double up in one)?
If you get your hands on GURPS VEHICLE, it tends to restrict the size of
the staterooms by a <cough> fair amount...
<running before he's shot...>
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 03:29:34 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Gas (was RE: Deep Space Jumps)
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
"If it were posible then you would have a very good platform for "gas
mining..."
Rob,
Wasn't there a Challenge adventure set in the Hard Times era dealing
with a petroleum-lacking world sending vessels in to a giant to harvest a
chemical "rain" for industrial puposes? The world in question could build
in-system craft; fusion rockets I believe. They'd send them out in convoy
with a starship to the giant, spend a few days floating through the clouds
collecting the rain, and then heading home.
I believe pirates were involved too.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:35:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Douglas Sinclair <dns@smtp.interlog.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
>I think -- someone correct me if I'm wrong -- that the standard is that
>you had to be on the Traveller Mailing List before it was on mpgn.com,
and
>that you have published something for Traveller on paper media
>(supplement, article, adventure, etc.).
I wonder if I sneak in under that definition, though I clearly don't post
enough to fully qualify. I have a design credit printed in the front of
Emperor's Vehicles, though after flipping through it in my FLGS I decided
it was still too awful to buy. I believe I've been on the list since
1993. Eight years! How they fly by... I don't recall whether it as on
MPGN at that point or not. Is anyone compiling a roster of Old Ones?
Doug
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 03:47:01 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
"Under the mattress is the coffin locker, which is the width
and length of said mattress, and maybe four inches deep; this, plus a
small locker about the size of two shoeboxes..."
I've been out for close to 14 years now. After reading the description
of the coffin locker above, I realize it's dimensions are closer to reality
than the 8"-10" depth I wrote about in my previous post. One fact I didn't
mention in my long screed was the the narrowness between racks. I'm no
Charles Atlas, but my shoulders brushed my reading light whenever I turned
over too.
We lucked out when compared to the boats though. Our perpetually
undermanned status meant that we never had to "hot rack". Still, as a "sub
vol" who was "involuntarily surfaced" for the "needs of the Navy", I'd have
given my eyeteeth for a fast attack. I was so disappointed at not recieving
orders to a sub that a withdrew my already approved NROTC request.
As an aside, the Navy decommisioned all 9 nuc cruisers through the
'90s, my ship, California, being the last. They simply worth manning
anymore. The Ticonderoga class provided the same firepower with a smaller
crew. Then VP Gore made some reference about this being done for
"enviromental" reasons. A typical lie from the moral lepers of the last
administration.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:13:08
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
At 04:05 PM 2/15/2001 -0700, you wrote:
>Heck, compared to you, Penguin Boy is a still a stripling TGOO. (but one
>showing great promise: "There is much strength in that one...")
<breathing sounds> I find your lack of faith... disturbing. </breathing
sounds>
>(I can remember when Doug happened upon our list, unless he's been on
>before under a different name...I've only been around since the
>traveller@engrg.uwo.edu days I don't think it was when the list was
>coming out of spectraphysics, and there were very few bang addresses
>left on the list when I first subscribed.)
Looking back into the mists of time, I seem to recall that I joined the
list right around the time of the Great Schism. I've been on under several
address.. dberry@delphi.com, traveller@np1.com, dberry@hooked.net, and now
gridlore@mindspring.com.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:02:49 -0500
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
One of the things I've always disliked about HG2 was the berthing
requirement. As Mr. Whipsnade did, I lived in an unventilated space
belowdecks about 10 x 20 with 77 other guys, crewing a processor ship in the
Bering Sea. We were hot-racking in 4-high steelpipe racks, and we were
quartered like this for close to 5 months without a single leave. We stank
of fish and guts and blood and body funk because we couldn't shower or do
laundry very often. There were some smouldering dislikes, but we handled
things, and made do. You didn't mess about, because you had to trust the
other fellow with your life sometimes, so it didn't pay to piss anyone off.
I'll tell you what, though... when we pulled into Ketchikan at the end of
our cruise, we all met up at the Arctic Bar, which is a trawlerman's bar.
Between the 30-40 of us there, we dropped about $ 4000 in drinks in about 3
hours! And some butts got whomped, too, but that was part of the fun...
OB Trav:I don't understand the whole stateroom idea, except as it equates to
life-support for x number of people. If I was the skipper of a Free Trader,
I'd scrap my staterooms for a bunk room and use the extra space to haul
freight.
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:50:14 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
On 15 Feb 01, at 21:50, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Mr. Davenport,
"Rob" is fine, please.
> While I do believe the social graces were much more improtant during
> that era, especially among the upper-classes, I also believe the crowded
> nature of the ships had a hand in a it too.
> I lived for over four years with 41 other men in a space about the
size
> of a one car garage. I never saw a physical fight during that time. A
few
> shouting matches to be sure, but no fists thrown.
> We all learned to exhibit a level of decorum and civility to avoid
> butchering one another. Of course those attributes usually were suspended
> during port visits.
A very good point, thanks.
So you had that many in that small an area? How many bunks? How
many slept at a time?
After reading Hornblower,et al., I wonder about the crew space
requirements in Trav. Are there options in (B2/HG2/FFS1/FFS2) for
multi-person arrangements such as that, or does everyone get a
stateroom (or double up in one)?
Rob D.
- - --
Rob Davenport -- rgd at ohio dot voyager dot net
I am Homer of Borg -- resistance is futile... oooh doughnuts!
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:57:43 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
Please remember one thing about the crew berthing your discussing.
1) these are all military vessles.
2) the crew requirments tu run a ship of nepolionic era are totally
different than modern warships.
3) compairing Military quarters on military warships to civilan quarters on
civilian ships is diffrent im sure.
The crew of a Super tanker or a freighter will probably have much more room
than a Military vessel. Also it will take a lof fewer people to run civilian
ship than a military one.
hasta
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: Larsen E. Whipsnade [mailto:grote1731@hotmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 15, 2001 7:47 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
"Under the mattress is the coffin locker, which is the width
and length of said mattress, and maybe four inches deep; this, plus a
small locker about the size of two shoeboxes..."
I've been out for close to 14 years now. After reading the description
of the coffin locker above, I realize it's dimensions are closer to reality
than the 8"-10" depth I wrote about in my previous post. One fact I didn't
mention in my long screed was the the narrowness between racks. I'm no
Charles Atlas, but my shoulders brushed my reading light whenever I turned
over too.
We lucked out when compared to the boats though. Our perpetually
undermanned status meant that we never had to "hot rack". Still, as a "sub
vol" who was "involuntarily surfaced" for the "needs of the Navy", I'd have
given my eyeteeth for a fast attack. I was so disappointed at not recieving
orders to a sub that a withdrew my already approved NROTC request.
As an aside, the Navy decommisioned all 9 nuc cruisers through the
'90s, my ship, California, being the last. They simply worth manning
anymore. The Ticonderoga class provided the same firepower with a smaller
crew. Then VP Gore made some reference about this being done for
"enviromental" reasons. A typical lie from the moral lepers of the last
administration.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:05:07 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
on 2/15/01 10:44 AM, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>> Personally, I'm fond of the Genie. A missile that *had* to have been
> designed by the ancestors of Familie Spofulam.
>
> For those not familiar with it, the Genie is an unguided air-to-air
> missile, about the size of a large man. It has a nuclear warhead...
See http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/arm/arm16.htm
The AIR-2A Genie is an air-to-air rocket with a nuclear warhead designed for
use against formations of enemy bombers. It has no guidance system and is
powered by a solid-propellant rocket motor...
Wasn't this to be an ordnance
Todoption for the YF-12A?
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:59:02 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
I have always taken staterooms as room for life support, galley, common
area, ships locker, crawlspaces, maintenance access, and other sundries
not covered by the rules. This can mean that crew do end up in bunks,
officers in shoboxes, that sort of thing.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Greenly, Jeff [mailto:greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 3:03 PM
To: Traveller Mailing List (E-mail)
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
<snip>
OB Trav:I don't understand the whole stateroom idea, except as it
equates to
life-support for x number of people. If I was the skipper of a Free
Trader,
I'd scrap my staterooms for a bunk room and use the extra space to haul
freight.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:02:07 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
Educate us youngsters!
What year was that?
And what *was* the great schism?
- -----Original Message-----
From: Douglas E. Berry [mailto:gridlore@pop.mindspring.com]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 6:13 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
<snip>
Looking back into the mists of time, I seem to recall that I joined the
list right around the time of the Great Schism. I've been on under
several
address.. dberry@delphi.com, traveller@np1.com, dberry@hooked.net, and
now
gridlore@mindspring.com.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:29:00 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Starship Bunking (was: Re: Civility and Politeness)
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
>
> From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
>
> "So you had that many in that small an area? How many bunks? How
> many slept at a time? After reading Hornblower,et al., I wonder about the
> crew space requirements in Trav. Are there options in (B2/HG2/FFS1/FFS2)
> for multi-person arrangements such as that, or does everyone get a stateroom
> (or double up in one)?"
For non-frosty personnel, FF&S2 mentions the following long-term
berthing arrangements: Bunk (14 m^3), Small Stateroom (28 m^3), and
Large Stateroom (56 m^3) [FF&S2, Table 207, page 111]. Of this cubic,
half is occupied by the listed volume, with the other half dedicated to
common areas [ibid, page 78].
Note that FF&S2 allows crewmembers to be berthed as follows (without
recourse to "hot-bunking") [ibid, page 78]: one crew per bunk, two crew
per small stateroom, and four crew per large stateroom (officers cannot
be placed in bunks or more than double-occupancy staterooms [I interpret
this last as double-occupancy Large staterooms; YMMV]). FF&S2 also
allows "hot-bunking," which is defined as "sleeping in three shifts per
24-hour period" [ibid, page 78].
>
> Rob,
> The lack of berthing areas in any Trav design systems has always
> puzzled me too. In the very few deckplans I've drawn, I've simply used the
> tonnage alloted to those staterooms and used it to create berthing and rec
> areas aboard. Junior officers slept 2 to a stateroom (in bunks) and seniors
> got a single.
It seems that you have spent too many terms crammed into LSP or General
Products ships. Nearly _all_ AuricTech ships feature individual Small
staterooms for _all_ crewbeings (junior petty and commissioned officers
have nicer ones), with individual Large staterooms for senior petty and
commissioned officers. (Yes, this means that the most senior CPOs can
have larger quarters than the most junior officers. As a Sergeant First
Class in the Louisiana Army National Guard [now on Title 10 orders], I
see nothing at all wrong with this. ;-)
Note that most AuricTech warships _also_ include dedicated space for
crew lounges (normally equipped with Ordinary galleys as snack bars),
besides the common spaces provided for above.
BTW, as I see it, staterooms (either Small or Large) include their own
sanitary facilities. Bunk space includes a slice of sanitary facility
(4 bunks per 'fresher space), with both bunk space and 'fresher space
being combined into relatively large compartments (say, 20 bunks each,
with 'freshers).
<<snip>>
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 04:49:04 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
on 16/2/01 2:44 am, James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain at
alasdair.maciain@snet.net wrote:
> I've always been extremely fond of A Bertram Chandler's John Grimes
> series. Chandler was an Australian (originally English) merchant-marine
> skipper who killed time on long voyages by writing SF, and the books are
> *very* heavily flavoured by both the Australian and the merchant-marine
> aspects of Chandler's own life.
Hurrah. You're the only other fan of A Bertram Chandler that I've heard of.
I love his books. They're not so easy to find in the UK. Many were published
here, but they didn't stay in print long, and they were published under
several different publishers. He wrote a large number of books, of which
I've only got a dozen or so. One day I'll track down an Aussie second hand
SF bookstore and order a heap of them.
Oddly enough, the first book I picked up was called "The Far Traveller",
published in the UK some time around when Traveller arrived here. Got my
attention. :) In fact, his books make really good Traveller material if
other folks here are looking for some fun inspirational fiction.
In fact, I'm off to trawl the web for AB Chandler pages, to see what's in
print. :)
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:55:21 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3672
> While I'm at it, if "Ziru Sirka" means "Grand Empire of the Stars," what
> does "Naasirka" mean?
Bread pudding
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:56:33 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
On 16 Feb 2001, at 4:49, Gordon Hundley wrote:
> on 16/2/01 2:44 am, James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain at
> alasdair.maciain@snet.net wrote:
>
> > I've always been extremely fond of A Bertram Chandler's John Grimes
> > series. Chandler was an Australian (originally English) merchant-marine
> > skipper who killed time on long voyages by writing SF, and the books are
> > *very* heavily flavoured by both the Australian and the merchant-marine
> > aspects of Chandler's own life.
>
> Hurrah. You're the only other fan of A Bertram Chandler that I've heard of. I
> love his books. They're not so easy to find in the UK. Many were published here,
> but they didn't stay in print long, and they were published under several
> different publishers. He wrote a large number of books, of which I've only got a
> dozen or so. One day I'll track down an Aussie second hand SF bookstore and
> order a heap of them.
I laways rather liked them, but aside from two or three in my public library
I've never seen them here.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:58:37 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3671
GDWGAMES@aol.com wrote:
> This is known as "designing by committee" and almost never works.
Amen! If game design weren't an art form, they would do it in
an assembly line.
No comment about T$R products in the late '80's to late '90s.
:-P
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:18:18 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: TGOOs
In a message dated 15-Feb-01 6:06:24 PM Central Standard Time,
owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
> > So, am I a TGOO?
>
> Leonard, you are one of the TGOOiest members of the list.
>
> Heck, compared to you, Penguin Boy is a still a stripling TGOO. (but one
> showing great promise: "There is much strength in that one...")
>
> Maybe there are people with longer TML tenure who are still about, but
> they post only rarely. Maybe Hans has been around that long, I'd have to
> examine my back issues of TML to be sure.
>
> (I can remember when Doug happened upon our list, unless he's been on
> before under a different name...I've only been around since the
> traveller@engrg.uwo.edu days I don't think it was when the list was
> coming out of spectraphysics, and there were very few bang addresses
> left on the list when I first subscribed.)
>
> - --
> Bruce Johnson
When I first subscribed, I lurked for a while, and most of the list was taken
up with the debate over whether or not I should be allowed to subscribe.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:20:52 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
Larsen wrote:
>Mr. Hensley,
> Thank you, sir, for taking your time to fully explain this one to
me.
>I really MUST dig out FF&S1 again.
Please. I am not a commmissioned officer or a TGOO (yet) and I have
tried hard to avoid jobs inwhich I would be called Mr. or Sir. Please
don't run me off :-)
The design this discussion was about specified FF&S2.
> I believe the last time I used it was to design a brace of low
tech
>"elephant gun" style weapons for the locals on a world with megafauna
along
>the lines of our Pliocene era.
> My current fixation with all the fun going at the "ct-starships"
group
>has made me a bit of a "HG-ist", much to my detriment I must admit.
>It's time to reacquaint myself with a few other design systems and this
>Q-ship affair has been the catalyst.
To each his own, the point is FUN, which ever or combination works for
you.
> If I may ask one additional favor Mr. Hensley? Could you point me
>towards an URL for "wet navy" designs in general and those on rotary
sails
>in particular? Another member of the list did give an URL for some of
this,
>but rotary sails were covered there.
> My thanks in advance.
>
Oh no, this is bad. Being an engineer, Gearhead, and an ex-sailor. not
having an answer for this question.
The best resource for wet navy I know of is "Wet Navy" by Terrence
McInnes
Challenge magizine #53, #54, #60 (mine are lost ;-( )
Next best source, the Traveller web links at the following address.
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw/
Thank You David J-W
>
> Larsen
>P.S. My many thanks to all the other folks who repsonded to my
questions
>during this thread. I did not mean to stint any of you of praise.
Most of us want to help.
Charles
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3679
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3680
Date: | 2/15/01 11:13:51 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, February 16 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3680
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Deep Gas (was RE: Deep Space Jumps)
RE: TGOOs
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Missiles & such
A question of canonicity...
Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: Q ship design
Re: Landmine clearing...
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3672
Re: Civility and Politeness
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Q ship design
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Deep Gas (was RE: Deep Space Jumps)
Re: Missiles & such
Re: Starship Bunking (was: Re: Civility and Politeness)
Re: TGOOs
HGS beta available
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Deep Space Refulling
RE: A Bertram Chandler
Re: Bilandi for dummies
RE: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:22:21 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:41:40 -0000, "Larsen E. Whipsnade"
<grote1731@hotmail.com> wrote:
>From: "David C. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
> "Local Nobility might even wield more power, but in status, the
>Imperial Title was everything."
>
>Mr. Broussard,
> I thouroughly enjoyed your ideas on forms of address concerning noble
>titles. Especially the idea of Imperial precedence over local honors. It
>could make for some nice, light roleplaying; ie: not involving the usual
>gunfights, when different parties get snarky over precedence during a formal
>function.
> The Imperial precedence rule should make for some fun too. Imagine a
>planetary ruler who is also a member of your K.I.G. order. He would be
>referred to as "Sir King-Emperor Ralph the 33rd, Defender of the Faith,
>Protector of the planet Freedonia, KIG".
> Now that will throw your PCs a curve!
Now, given the layering of titles common in both the French and
British aristocracy (which are probably our most relevant models for
the OTU), this is exactly what I would expect to be the case.
Further, once again in the above examples, the king's offspring may be
permitted to use some of the king's lesser titles for their own.
Ralph the 33rd is also (planetary) Duke of Earlim, the Count of
Penzance and the Baron of Ibex, though these subsidiary titles are
traditionally applied, as a courtesy, to the King's first, second and
third offspring. Children number 4 and up are just plain out of luck
and might as well join a monestary
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:22:27 -0600
From: JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Gas (was RE: Deep Space Jumps)
On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:55:17 -0500, "Rob Davenport"
<rgd@ohio.voyager.net> wrote:
>On 15 Feb 01, at 15:28, Charles Prevatte wrote:
>> What about the "cloud city" concept? Would it be posible for a structure to
>> be built that could float in a Gas Giants atmosphere at a depth where it's
>> displaced gas mass was greater than it's mass? If it were posible then you
>> would have a very good platform for "gas mining". If there was also exotic
>> and/or industrially valuable gasses or particals in the GG atmosphere then
>> you could have a basis for manufacturing or at least mining of the materials
>> for transport to a factory. The question is, is there a altitude in a GG
>> that such a platforn could exist that would allow human habitation? If
>> there is such a place then the 'mine' could use contragravity systems to
>> rise to a 'depth' that would make it easy for freighters to trans ship
>> cargo. The mine's natural boyancy would allow it to survive if it's CG
>> failed providing a margin of safety.
>
>Interesting idea. I have no idea about the mechanics necessary
>though.
>
>My big concern would the 100s-kph winds and storms. Maybe some GGs
>aren't that stormy, or maybe the facility could stay up in relatively
>safe rarified altitude, but too far down would be trouble.
Unless you were concerned about keeping your cloud city in a
particular location in the atmosphere, allowing it to travel with
those 100 kph winds neatly solves your problem. Should you ever
partake a recreational hot air balloon ride, you will note that there
is a nearly complete absence of wind since the balloon is travelling
with the wind and remains in essentially the same volume of air as it
moves.
Storms, with up/down drafts within a relatively small area, remain a
definite problem. Your suggestion of selecting your altitude to
minimize turbulence has merit, but severe storms on Earth routinely
extend outside the troposphere and would pose a problem for our city
dwellers passively drifting along.
- --
JR Holmes
jrholmes@wi.rr.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:15:31 +1100
From: Paul Harris <paul.harris@dytech.com.au>
Subject: RE: TGOOs
Are there any archives from the earliest days of the TML? (Just like a
casual read one day of the types of things discussed in the lists
infancy)
- -----Original Message-----
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com [mailto:GDWGAMES@aol.com]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 4:18 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: TGOOs
In a message dated 15-Feb-01 6:06:24 PM Central Standard Time,
owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
> > So, am I a TGOO?
>
> Leonard, you are one of the TGOOiest members of the list.
>
> Heck, compared to you, Penguin Boy is a still a stripling TGOO. (but
one
> showing great promise: "There is much strength in that one...")
>
> Maybe there are people with longer TML tenure who are still about,
but
> they post only rarely. Maybe Hans has been around that long, I'd have
to
> examine my back issues of TML to be sure.
>
> (I can remember when Doug happened upon our list, unless he's been on
> before under a different name...I've only been around since the
> traveller@engrg.uwo.edu days I don't think it was when the list was
> coming out of spectraphysics, and there were very few bang addresses
> left on the list when I first subscribed.)
>
> - --
> Bruce Johnson
When I first subscribed, I lurked for a while, and most of the list was
taken
up with the debate over whether or not I should be allowed to subscribe.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 05:28:21 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
on 16/2/01 2:44 am, James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain at
alasdair.maciain@snet.net wrote:
> I've always been extremely fond of A Bertram Chandler's John Grimes
> series.
Wow. Look what I found:
http://www.peanutpress.com/author.cgi/1787/08352850-55676-521856214
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:29:57 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Missiles & such
> >> Personally, I'm fond of the Genie. A missile that *had* to have been
> > designed by the ancestors of Familie Spofulam.
I think the FS forebears had something to do with a weapon system called the
Davy Crockett also.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:40:34 -0500
From: "Greenly, Jeff" <greenlyj@rcbhsc.wvu.edu>
Subject: A question of canonicity...
Fellow Travellers (esp. all you canon wonks)
In development of my landgrab planets I have discovered 42 pages (MS-Word,
12 pt single spaced!)of material on Forboldn, Whanga and Knorbes, some of
which is in on-line JTAS (and is VERY good--Kudos to Herr Hans Rancke-Madsen
von Danemark for his excellent work on Forboldn!) I want to include canon
sources and of course I want to cite anything I use, so I need to know if
everything in the current JTAS is popularly considered canonical by the
folks on the list?
Jeff
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:46:02 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Muppet Strikes Again.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
> "Puritan: someone who fears that someone, somewhere, is having fun."
Poppycock. I'm having just as much fun as the rest of you.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 05:41:37 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
"The best resource for wet navy I know of is "Wet Navy" by Terrence
McInnes Challenge magizine #53, #54, #60 (mine are lost ;-( )"
Charles,
Thank you so much for such a fast response. Most of Challenge copies
are out on "permanent loan" too. < sigh>
Bill or Larsen is quite good enough for me too.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 05:42:08 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Landmine clearing...
on 16/2/01 1:04 am, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:
> It really all depends. My wife (an explosives expert) related the story of
> a huge balst in an Israeli town. Some distance away, a boby builder working
> out on his roof was killed by reflected pressure wave. weird.
Did he die when he hit the ground, or did the wave itself kill him?
As an aside, my visit to Jerusalem while I was in Israel on business was an
experience. It's a very interesting place, but one thing I didn't expect was
the soundscape. I went down there on a Sunday (taking our usual days off
rather than the local ones) and the sound of Christian church bells, Muslim
calls to prayer and Israeli sonic booms from the Air Defence Force was a mix
that brought the similarities and tensions of the varied cultures together
in an almost miasmic cacophony. I wish I'd had my DAT recorder with me.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 05:43:34 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3672
>From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
>Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
>To: traveller@lists.ient.com
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3672
>Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:55:21 EST
>
> > While I'm at it, if "Ziru Sirka" means "Grand Empire of the Stars," what
> > does "Naasirka" mean?
>
>Bread pudding
>
>LKW
Wasn't there an ancient Vilani subsector name that loosely translated
as "Star Salad"?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:44:37 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness
Rob Davenport wrote:
>So you had that many in that small an area? How many bunks? How
>many slept at a time? After reading Hornblower,et al., I wonder about
the
>crew space requirements in Trav. Are there options in
(B2/HG2/FFS1/FFS2)
>for multi-person arrangements such as that, or does everyone get a
stateroom
>(or double up in one)?
FF&S1 and FF&S2 add more bearthing options
bunks, small staterooms
FF&S2 also adds other featuressanitary facilities, seats, airlockselect
shp, mech shop, lab, sickbay, gyms, brigs, armory, ships locker, and
guidlines for other types of rooms.
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:47:53 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
William Lane wrote:
> The crew of a Super tanker or a freighter will probably have much
> more room than a Military vessel.
I'm not so sure about that. Unlike oceangoing ships, the costs of
running starships are almost entirely dependent upon the ship's
volume. For example, the volume occupied by a single small stateroom
adds about 300 kCr to the cost of a ship of given cargo capacity.
That's about 20 years wages for a typical crewmember.
Now, it may be that starships can recruit better-quality crews with
such luxurious berthing space as 2 crew/small stateroom, and so recoup
this cost. It may be that unions demand it. But it sure looks like a
very expensive proposition up front, for which corporations running on
tight margins may be unwilling to pay.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:53:12 -0500
From: "SwordWorlder" <SwordWorlder@nc.rr.com>
Subject: Re: Q ship design
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Larceny Whiplash? Snidely's brother? Must be a Canadian joke.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 05:55:27 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
on 15/2/01 11:46 pm, knightsky@juno.com at knightsky@juno.com wrote:
> I believe that "Dame" is the proper title for a female knight.
Depends on the Knighthood. Vanilla Knights (British Empire, Victorian Order)
have an equivalent of Dame. More Noble orders (Garter, Thistle) have an
equivalent of Lady. E.G: KBE/DBE, KG/LG.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:23:13 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
Douglas Sinclair
>Is anyone compiling a roster of Old Ones?
No, for They Cannot Be Named, and a roster saying only :
Great Old One number one
Great Old One number two
Great Old One number three
is boring.
Frankie
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 06:13:15 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
on 15/2/01 10:26 pm, David C. Broussard at broussa@connecti.com wrote:
> Hmm, this looks like a wonderful topic for a JTAS article, or even a full
> supplement...GURPS, Imperial Nobles: The lifestyles of the Rich, and
> Powerful. B-)
Err... have you seen this week's JTAS? It's coming, and there's a sneak
preview. Interestingly, there's a mention of primogeniture, but it fails to
mention ultimogeniture, which would be likely found as an 'unusual
circumstance', as well as old-fashioned patrilinear primogeniture, which is.
Also, there's no note as to whether the Imperium uses agnatic or uterine
lineage. But it is a sneak peek.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:12:49 -0500
From: Michael Stasica <stosh@sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Deep Gas (was RE: Deep Space Jumps)
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
> "If it were posible then you would have a very good platform for "gas
> mining..."
>
> Rob,
> Wasn't there a Challenge adventure set in the Hard Times era dealing
> with a petroleum-lacking world sending vessels in to a giant to harvest a
> chemical "rain" for industrial puposes? The world in question could build
> in-system craft; fusion rockets I believe. They'd send them out in convoy
> with a starship to the giant, spend a few days floating through the clouds
> collecting the rain, and then heading home.
> I believe pirates were involved too.
I have in front of me a copy of ASSIGNMENT: VIGILANTE by Charles E. Gannon,
could this
be what your remember?
Set in late 1128.
Characters start on an Agricultural world as the hope for rebuilding or at
least a strong defense against
raiders. Travel to a local mostly abandoned research station for spare parts
including a 'high penetration
densitometer', and get involved with local raider and rescued by the STARMERC
crew of the Vigilante.
The second part of the adventure involves them travelling to a GG being
harvested once a year by the
locals for 'complex hydrocarbons'. They have been asked to join the STARMERC
crew temporarily to
combat the raiders at this, their next target.
The mother ship is a converted 'Type XT express boat tender' and the
miners/cloud divers use TL6 VTOL
craft with 'airfoils' it fills with scooped Hydrogen used for lift and
propulsion. Once the airfoil is filled the
craft fill up on 'propane rain' and boost back to a higher orbit where their
tanks are removed and refitted
with empties for further runs
Altogether an interesting module:
Seven ships described
A STARMERC unit with colourful NPCs
A 'Pirate Band' (it does not mention instruments, but the STARMERCs like
Bagpipes)
and a brief section of Library Data.
And the Premier copy of IMPERIAL LINES
Michael
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:15:30 +1100
From: "Jeffrey Michael Malone" <NarellePark@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: Missiles & such
The Davy Crocket...great idea for a weapon system...with a blast radius
greater than the range of the weapon, who would want to join the missleman
MOS.
J.M.M.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: <GDWGAMES@aol.com>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: Missiles & such
> > >> Personally, I'm fond of the Genie. A missile that *had* to have been
> > > designed by the ancestors of Familie Spofulam.
>
> I think the FS forebears had something to do with a weapon system called
the
> Davy Crockett also.
>
> LKW
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:21:05 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Starship Bunking (was: Re: Civility and Politeness)
John Groth wrote:
> For non-frosty personnel, FF&S2 mentions the following long-term
> berthing arrangements: Bunk (14 m^3), Small Stateroom (28 m^3), and
> Large Stateroom (56 m^3) [FF&S2, Table 207, page 111]. Of this cubic,
> half is occupied by the listed volume, with the other half dedicated to
> common areas [ibid, page 78].
Those bunks seem bigger than any I've ever been in. On the ship I was
on, the bunks themselves (including walls and storage) occupied a
region roughly 2.5m x 1.2m x 0.7m, for a total of 2.1 m^3, rather than
7 m^3. The rest of the bunkroom (common to 6 bunks) would have been
about 3m x 2m x 2.1m, another 2.1 m^3 per bunk. That's only 60% of
FF&S2's allowance of non-shared space.
> It seems that you have spent too many terms crammed into LSP or General
> Products ships. Nearly _all_ AuricTech ships feature individual Small
> staterooms for _all_ crewbeings
Wow, that's spacious! It woudl probably be cheaper to plate the walls
with gold. (Hmm -- Given the name ... :)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 06:24:12 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: TGOOs
on 16/2/01 5:15 am, Paul Harris at paul.harris@dytech.com.au wrote:
> Are there any archives from the earliest days of the TML? (Just like a
> casual read one day of the types of things discussed in the lists
> infancy)
Waah! I've got a boo-boo!
Mommy, Leonard's not playing fair!
I want a space ship too!
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:30:17 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: HGS beta available
I've uploaded the latest Beta test version of my High Guard Shipyard
program to my website at Downport (its already available at the CT-
starships list website). Any comments or suggestions would be
appreciated.
I'm also beginning to do a long overdue update on the site
http://www.downport.com/amv/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:37:06 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> If you get your hands on GURPS VEHICLE, it tends to restrict the
> size of the staterooms by a <cough> fair amount...
Yes, a GURPS Vehicles "cabin" (roughly equivalent to a small stateroom
in that it provides the most basic facilities for 1 to 2 people) takes
up 14 m^3, while a bunk is 2.8 m^3! However, it does mention that
these are minimum volumes rather than typical figures, and that any
storage space for belongings is taken out of the cargo space
allocation.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 03:46:33 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
>
> Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:33:03 +1100
> From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
> Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
>
> Thom Jones-Low wrote:
>
> > The smallest planetoid you can safely target with a Jump 1 drive is
> > about 50km in diameter. Any smaller and the variability of the jump
> > drive and the ship's real space vector may cause the ship to smash
> > into the object before the crew has a chance to react.
>
> It would be possible for the ship to match velocity with the fuel
> depot before jumping, at least to within a few hundred m/s or so. For
> a 200m diameter or so snowball (or station), the jump limit is 20 km
> so they can't possibly be any closer than that when they emerge. At
> (say) 300 m/s, they've got over a minute to decelerate or avoid --
> within the capability of any ship with 0.1G thrusters or better (20
> seconds to realise there's a problem, 20 seconds to change
> orientation, 20 seconds of thrust). And that's assuming a bad pilot.
>
"Over a jump distance of one parsec, the arrival point of a ship can be
predicted to within perhaps 3,000 kilometers (on larger jumps, the
potential error is proportionally larger)"
Jump Space by Marc Miller, 12/26/2000 edition of JTAS online
(http://jtas.sjgames.com )
This is where you and I differ on this. To me the variability on the
jump drive can put the emergence point inside the safe jump limit. The
exit point is based upon a gravity gradient and is not a brick wall.
When dealing with planets or stars, these variances are relatively
insignificant. But when dealing with small bodies like the comets, you
can emerge from jump space on the surface of the comet.
If you take my meaning, your target must be larger than 30 miles (50
km) in diameter to avoid the inconvenient emergence.
You are undoubtedly correct in your assessment that a dangerous vector
is very small, and even adding my assumption about very close emergence
(which would be equally rare) there is no reason why you couldn't use a
chunk of ice only a few kdtons in size for a jump target.
But I'm working under the assumption of building a commercial deep
space which in the risk averse Imperium would mean building it around a
small moon size chunk of ice.
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:06:15 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: A Bertram Chandler
> Hurrah. You're the only other fan of A Bertram Chandler that
> I've heard of. I love his books. They're not so easy to find
> in the UK. Many were published here, but they didn't stay in
> print long, and they were published under several
> different publishers. He wrote a large number of books, of
> which I've only got a dozen or so. One day I'll track down
> an Aussie second hand SF bookstore and order a heap of them.
I refer to Sean McMullens's article in Aurealis 11
(Sean is from Melbourne and writes a lot of articles on the history of SF in
Australia, as well as several pretty good novels and short stories. )
He wrote 23 stories in the sixties, including 19 novels and two collections
averaging two books per year. Here's the ones mentioned in the article
"Change of Heart" (New Worlds, September 1961)
"To Run the Rim" (Astounding, January 1959)
"The Rim of Space" (Avalon/Ace 1961)
"Spartan Planet" (Fantastic March-May 1968) (for which he won the first
"Ditmar" award)
"The Bird-brained Navigator" (Worlds of If, 1968) (with illustrations by
Vaughn Bode!)
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:54:48 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Bilandi for dummies
> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 07:31:53 -0700
> From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
> Subject: Re: FFS versions; Bilandi for dummies
<snip>
> >does "Naasirka" mean?
>
> "Buying the stars wholesale, selling at a 500% markup"
According to the Naasirka marketing division it means,
"Dependability you can rely upon to last."
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:29:05 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:28:12 -0000
> From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
> Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
>
> >Dean,
> > My usually lack of clarity led to some minor misunderstandings. i
> >REALLY much take more time with my posts, instead of typing them
> >willy-nilly.
>
>
> OK, Bill...but it wasn't me that objected..it was Dave Shayne.
>
> Dean
I'm not offended. It's not like he called me Eddie Baby or Snookums.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:55:28 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:40:26 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>
> In mail you write:
>
<snip>
> > common in deep space (ie not in the immediate vicinity of a star) they
> > will probably be fairly hard to find. Sure just keep sending out scout
> > expeditions
> > and eventually you'll probably come across one but it could take a
while.
>
> No, just send out one with a big folding array and send out *powerful*
> radar pulses in a pseudo random pattern. Then sit there for a few weeks
> listening for the echoes. That'll detect anything worth bothering with
> within a light week or so.
Which may or may not be anything at all. I don't suppose you have a good
guess for the population density of comet heads in deep space? I'm thinking
this could be a low number. (but I'm willing to accept a high one for game
purposes.) Gas giants will of course be bigger returns but comensurately
less likely.
David Shayne
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3680
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3681
Date: | 2/16/01 3:11:23 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, February 16 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3681
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Deep Space Refulling
Core Routes Maps Update.
Re: A Bertram Chandler
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Updated TML roster?
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Xboat List
Re: Nasty cargo bays...
Re: Civility and Politeness
RE: Q Ship Design
Re: Q-ship design
RE: Nasty cargo bays...
RE: Updated TML roster?
RE: TGOOs
RE: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Refulling
Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
Re: Civility and Politeness.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:25:39 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:16:36 -0000
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>
> >From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Bill,
Not a horrid big deal or anything but I'm Dave not Dean.
> Dean,
> My usually lack of clarity led to some minor misunderstandings. i
> REALLY much take more time with my posts, instead of typing them
> willy-nilly.
<snip>
> I was thinking more along the lines of "delivered" chunks rather than
> "found" chunks. That way, with a refinery at the depot, any sufficiently
> large merchant could act as our re-supply vessel. Not having to build a
> tanker would save credits.
Whew. Delivering chunks of ice. I think you'll find that it is in fact less
expensive to ship in refined fuel than to jump in big chunks of rocks.
As to sending them at sublight. Well that would be a long term project.
Bear in mind that without a bussard ram type of drive (which unfortunately
appears to not be do-able realistically) getting any cargo up to a
significant
fraction of the speed of light is rather dificult. But lets say you get your
comet head up to .1c average velocity it'll take 32+ years to get your
fuel source to the halfway point you want. And it will still be cruising at
.1c when it gets there meaning that it will drift out of range in a fairly
short time. Parking the ice will require turnaround and deceleration
which will add time as well as requiring extra fuel.
Which brings up another point; how are you getting fuel to this icicle?
If you use the comet itself it's probably going to exaust itself well before
reaching it's destination. If you jump fuel to the comet you might as well
just jump the fuel to the destination anyway.
I suspect years spent in a carefull search of the vicinity of your prefered
deep space depot for a local source of hydrogen would be a better
investment.
> My "vision" of a deep space depot most resembles Admunsen Station,
our
> facility at the South Pole. The depot would resemble a small highport
> belonging to C or D class starport (maybe a small B class too).
> It has a single purpose, a small crew (frequently rotated), a few visiting
> academic types.
That is substantially what I was thinking. Note that part of the "price"
charged to use the depot could be taking relief crewmembers in and
relieved crew out as well as food, entertainment, spares, and the
other sundry requirements to run the station.
<snip>
> Very good point, below cost it is. Our government currently
> "subsidizes" businesses of certain sizes and those owned by certain people
> in order to "promote" the growth of those businesses. Might our world,
> fearful of megacorp domination, set aside a certain percentage of
> thingawhatsits for smaller firms?
If they do they want to be subtle about it and ensure that it doesn't hurt
the megacorps *to* much or our world could find itself unable to avoid,
"Imperial entanglements." (to steal the second best line from Star Wars.)
Oh and I hope you don't think I'm picking on you. I think this is a cool
idea with a lot of practical problems that you want to solve (at least
to the level of close enough to fool the natives) to use in a game
situation.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:57:47 -0500
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:31:33 -0600
> From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
> Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
<snip>
> Or would the wife always have the female version of her
> spouse's title? Is it "Baron and Lady", or "Baron and Baroness"?
>
> bloo
I would go with the generic Lady or indeed lord
for the spouse. Or if both are seperately enobled they would be
refered to by their individual titles. Throw in Military ranks
where apropriate. So at a formal cocktail party
on Capitol you could here announced, "The Grand Admiral
Empress Arbellatra and 2nd Lieutenant Duke Whoozit of Wheresitat."
(BTW any name given in canon to Arbellatra's SO.)
As always the higher ranking spouse will in most cases be introduced
first. The exception being at an official function presided over by the
nominally lower ranked of the pair. So at functions of the Ducal Court
of Whersitat Duke Whoozit gets top billing.
David Shayne
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:11:57 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
"The smallest planetoid you can safely target with a Jump 1 drive is
about 50km in diameter."
Mr. Jones-Low,
I'm afraid I still don't quite understand the need for a vessel to
"target" a body with it's jump drive. Are you suggesting that the body's
mass is needed in some way to "precipatate" the vessel out of jump space?
You quote Mr. Miller stating that a 3000km error radius is normal at
the end of a 1 parsec jump. Why couldn't a vessel "aim" for a point 10K km
or 100K km away from the depot and, after it emerges from jump space, simply
maneuver to the depot's position?
Why the worrys about emerging from jump space too close to the depot on
a collison vector and without the time to correct it? Couldn't the ship
simply choose a point, with the +/- 3000km in mind, that is far enough away
to avoid a potential collision based on it's real space vector?
I hope to here your response soon as this has me puzzled.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:12:53 -0800
From: clifford n linehan <cnl.rubicon@juno.com>
Subject: Core Routes Maps Update.
Greetings to all,
I have added the Galactic 2.4C patch on my website. It also includes the
Trade Code Syncronizer.
With this patch you will be able to load all of the sectors of the
Zhodani Core Route into Galactic.
Follow the instructions in the "read me" file and you should have not
problems.
Thanks for your time,
Clifford Linehan - cnl.rubicon@juno.com
http://herons-reach.homepage.com/traveller
Developing Vlanchiets Qlom and the Core Route.
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:22:14 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A Bertram Chandler
on 16/2/01 7:06 am, Frank G. Pitt at frankie@mundens.gen.nz wrote:
> I refer to Sean McMullens's article in Aurealis 11
> (Sean is from Melbourne and writes a lot of articles on the history of SF in
> Australia, as well as several pretty good novels and short stories. )
>
> He wrote 23 stories in the sixties, including 19 novels and two collections
> averaging two books per year. Here's the ones mentioned in the article
Thanks. I searched for Sean McMullen and Chandler and found:
http://eidolon.net/?section=old_site&visiting_section=old_site&page=/old_sit
e/issue_04/04_ink.htm
And I've also found a very good bibliography:
http://members.tripod.com/~gwillick/biblio/abchandlerbib.html
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:39:22 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
"Not a horrid big deal or anything but I'm Dave not Dean."
Dave,
Thanks for being so gracious abotu my faux pas. Dean gently corrected
me too. As I said, I need to take more time with my posts.
"Whew. Delivering chunks of ice. I think you'll find that it is in fact
less expensive to ship in refined fuel than to jump in big chunks of rocks."
Why? We have already IISS equipment that use unrefined fuel without
penalty. Could an IISS style powerplant and purifier be set up at our depot
to supply the needed watts and crack refined fuel for our merchants? Could
a yearly visit from the colonial navy's rider tender with a few
"ice-teroids" riding along do the job?
"As to sending them at sublight..."
<gasp> No, never.
"I suspect years spent in a careful search of the vicinity of your
prefered deep space depot for a local source of hydrogen would be a better
investment."
Yes indeedy, if it's in the right place. Of course a parsec is a Big
Place, so our odds are pretty good.
"That is substantially what I was thinking. Note that part of the
"price" charged to use the depot could be taking relief crewmembers in and
relieved crew out as well as food, entertainment, spares, and the
other sundry requirements to run the station."
Yes. I suspect the crew might recieve some sort of extra pay or
benefits too. USN personnel in "remote" duty posts get free time towards
their retirement date.
"If they do they want to be subtle about it and ensure that it doesn't
hurt the megacorps *to* much or our world could find itself unable to avoid,
"Imperial entanglements." (to steal the second best line from Star Wars.)"
Yes, again. It might depend on the amount of "pull" such a world's
Imperial nobility has within a subsector. I really can't see a megacorp rep
whining to a sector duke that world X is only allowing it to ship 85% of the
local production of greebles. Political "chits" are usually hoarded and
used for big problems.
Canon mentions that megacorp departments occasionally work at cross
purposes. Would the RGM of one division have to consult with his fellows
from other divisions before "expending" the 'corps chits at the subsector
capital?
"Oh and I hope you don't think I'm picking on you. I think this is a
cool idea with a lot of practical problems that you want to solve (at least
to the level of close enough to fool the natives) to use in a game
situation."
Oh, please don't worry, I don't think that at all. Things like this
are my favorite way to wile away the time on airliners.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:43:21 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: Updated TML roster?
On 02/15/01 at 04:09 PM, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:
>Mark F. Cook wrote:
>> Some time back, a TML member made a roster of all the TML members
>> available to the rest of us. The list looked like this:
>>
>> NAME CITY STATE COUNTRY
>> Dan Roseberry Hot Springs AK US
>> William F. "Wil" Hostman Anchorage AS US
>> Jim Moss Chandler AZ US
>> Bradley Houston Gilbert AZ US
>> Legate Legion Phoenix AZ US
>> ...
>>
>> I was just going through my copy and noticed that it was somewhat
>> out of date. For example, Tod Glenn isn't in the list.
>>
>> Is the Keeper of this list still present, and is a more current copy of
>> the list available? If so, I'd really list to get it.
>That would be Eris, at his web site:
>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr/#roster
Yep, that would be me, and the list is only as current as the
contributors allow it to be. I don't include anyone unless they ask
to be included, and don't include email or url unless specifically
told to do so.
If anyone would like to be included on the list, or have their entry
updated, drop me a line with the following information:
Name, City, State/Province/Region, Nation, and only if you want it
included, email and/or url
I plan to update the lists on my website this weekend.
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 22:53:05 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
"Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au> wrote
[snip of long useful article]
One key reason for the shortage of donor organs is that
you can't buy and sell them. Of course demand exceeds supply,
since we're not at a market equilibrium price.
------------------------------
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 23:11:41 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk> wrote
> David C. Broussard at broussa@connecti.com wrote:
> > Hmm, this looks like a wonderful topic for a JTAS article, or even a full
> > supplement...GURPS, Imperial Nobles: The lifestyles of the Rich, and
> > Powerful. B-)
>
> Err... have you seen this week's JTAS? It's coming, and there's a sneak
> preview. Interestingly, there's a mention of primogeniture, but it fails to
> mention ultimogeniture, which would be likely found as an 'unusual
> circumstance', as well as old-fashioned patrilinear primogeniture, which is.
According to DGP, and thus unusable by SJG, the third child
was the heir in the Vilani noble tradition. Therefore some titles
in the Third Imperium, especially in the Vilani Cultural Region,
may well be inheritable by the third child.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:24:47 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@home.com>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
Paul Harris wrote:
> Educate us youngsters!
> What year was that?
> And what *was* the great schism?
91 or 92....
Or
The 1st Trav at Baycon was almost 3 years ago.
I had been married for 4yrs at the anouncment of the 1st baycon party.
And at that time I had been reading the Tml trough a Fido bounce for
a couple of years. That was when.
What was over TNE vs MegaTrav.
- --
Evyn
The theme of the whole thing is clear. We have to be careful with wisdom. We
have to make certain we're ready for it when it comes knocking on our door.
Knowledge isn't always a blessing;
sometimes, it's damnation.
Play Dirty: Let's All Go to the Movies!, by John Wick
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:34:02 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@home.com>
Subject: Re: Xboat List
trentfs@ix.netcom.com wrote:
> The xboat list no longer exists per se, but really THIS is the old xboat list. Once TNE was no longer 'current' the CT grognards reasserted their authority and all those newfangled TNE-types fled to the tne-rces list. Of recent rules-related discussions, I'd put CT a close second to G:T, especially since the re-prints hit.
No, this is the muntant list where all traveller is allowed. At the end of Xboat list days it was 90% reposts from the main list. Frequently the same threads where crossposted to both lists.
- --
Evyn
The theme of the whole thing is clear. We have to be careful with wisdom. We have to make certain we're ready for it when it comes knocking on our door. Knowledge isn't always a blessing;
sometimes, it's damnation.
Play Dirty: Let's All Go to the Movies!, by John Wick
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:56:01 +0100
From: Volker <volker@greimann.de>
Subject: Re: Nasty cargo bays...
The topic of this mail somehow reminds me of the Cowboy Bebop episode
11, "Toys in the Attic". (CB is a great anime series on a bunch of
stellar Bounty Hunters. If you get a chance to see it do so. The
stories are great, characters are very detailed and interesting and
the animation is excellent.)
That episode shows what happens when a cargo goes bad... ;-)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:58:23 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness
>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
>Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
<good stuff about crewspace on a modern sub snipped>
>
>I find the Traveller concept of small staterooms totally amazing....
>8) (Someday I'll have to compute the actual volume of one of the wardroom
>staterooms, which are shared by three officers - roughly 6' x 6' x 8'.)
>
One of my theories is that as living standards go up, so does the minimum demanded by the military.
What you are describing sounds perfectly OK for TL8-9 starships, but you'd need to offer better than
that to get better than the dregs of a TL10 and up society signing up for Naval duty.
As to what happens when you go lower, I have this 16th century quote about the end of the famine in
Spain leading to an acute lack of volunteers for the galleys ...
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:06:40 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Q Ship Design
"6. Effective small PAs (turrets, small bays) gone."
If this is true, how does the Q-ship design sport two PAWs? Does it
have a double barreled spinal mount?
They could be mounted in parallel or back to back ('Janus mount')
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:05:02 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Q-ship design
>From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
>Subject: Re: Q ship design
>For instance, we at AuricTech Shipyards tend to prioritize ship
>characteristics as follows (in approximate order, from most to least
>important): performance (both n-space and jump), sensor range,
>habitability (very few AuricTech ships use double-occupancy staterooms
>or bunks), armor, weapons, and small craft capacity, with the exact
>order of these characteristics depending on the mission of the ship in
>question. (Note that these priorities tend to drive prices _way_ up.)
>Other firms, such as Gridlore Technologies, Dimashq Shipyards, and
>Famille Spofulam have different design philosophies. None of these is
>wrong, yet none of these yards would approach a design in quite the
>high-capability, high-cost way that AuricTech does.
As far as FS goes, we go for performance, then firepower, then cost-effectiveness, then armour, and
then sensors.
Basically, we at Famile Spofulam believe that modern technology puts the ability to maneuver and fire
at a premium - once you start shooting, then the time for sensor games is gone.
Of course, with civilian vessels, this usually means civilian-grade (250 MJ) rapid fire lasers powered by
multi-dton battery packs.
Ian Whitchurch
PS Our competitors would slander us by stating that 'operator safety' did not appear on the list of FS
design goals. At FS, your safety comes first, second and third.
PPS There is no truth to a recall notice on the Jet Bike. All instances of product failure can be
attributed to operator error (could someone re-post the Jet Bike ? Think of it as a ME-262 rigged up for
personal transport).
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:24:12 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Nasty cargo bays...
<<<<The topic of this mail somehow reminds me of the Cowboy Bebop episode
11, "Toys in the Attic". (CB is a great anime series on a bunch of
stellar Bounty Hunters. If you get a chance to see it do so. The
stories are great, characters are very detailed and interesting and
the animation is excellent.)
That episode shows what happens when a cargo goes bad... ;-)>>>
Next up on Fox Interstellar Network: When Good Cargoes go Bad, f
followed by When Groats Attack
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:27:14 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Updated TML roster?
On 02/15/01 at 04:09 PM, Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:
>Mark F. Cook wrote:
>> Some time back, a TML member made a roster of all the TML members
>> available to the rest of us. The list looked like this:
>>
>> NAME CITY STATE COUNTRY
>> Dan Roseberry Hot Springs AK US
>> William F. "Wil" Hostman Anchorage AS US
>> Jim Moss Chandler AZ US
>> Bradley Houston Gilbert AZ US
>> Legate Legion Phoenix AZ US
>> ...
>>
>> I was just going through my copy and noticed that it was somewhat
>> out of date. For example, Tod Glenn isn't in the list.
>>
>> Is the Keeper of this list still present, and is a more current copy of
>> the list available? If so, I'd really list to get it.
>That would be Eris, at his web site:
>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr/#roster
ERIS: <<<Yep, that would be me, and the list is only as current as the
contributors allow it to be. I don't include anyone unless they ask
to be included, and don't include email or url unless specifically
told to do so.
If anyone would like to be included on the list, or have their entry
updated, drop me a line with the following information:
Name, City, State/Province/Region, Nation, and only if you want it
included, email and/or url
I plan to update the lists on my website this weekend.>>>>
S'right.You may have noticed I'm listed on the roster, and I've only been a
list member 6 months.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:28:49 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: TGOOs
Since we have TGOOs, shouldn't we also have TEGs and TOGs, as well?
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:31:47 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Harris
>
>
> Educate us youngsters!
> What year was that?
> And what *was* the great schism?
>
You can find it in history books as 'Black Tuesday'
:P
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:52:29 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
DaveShayne wrote:
> Whew. Delivering chunks of ice. I think you'll find that it is in
> fact less expensive to ship in refined fuel than to jump in big
> chunks of rocks.
Nope. As per my post yesterday, unrefined fuel in the form of liquid
(or solid) water, methane or ammonia is twice as dense in hydrogen as
refined LH2.
> As to sending them at sublight.
Oh no! Duck for cover! It's the Near-c Rocks thread from Hell again!
> Which brings up another point; how are you getting fuel to this icicle?
Look at the fuel requirements for fusion plants running various
incarnations of thrusters (at least MT and GT varieties will work, I
don't have other references handy to compare). You could get fuel out
2 parsecs by sublight barge in just 10 or so years, with very little
of the original mass consumed. Including deceleration. Final cost of
refined fuel at deep space depot: 145 Cr/dton in bulk, including all
the usual overheads I figure into these sorts of computations.
As I've said before and will say again -- jump drives are massively
more expensive than maneuver drives. If you don't need the speed,
don't pay the premium.
> I suspect years spent in a carefull search of the vicinity of your
> prefered deep space depot for a local source of hydrogen would be a
> better investment.
I agree. A region a parsec across is a big place -- there is almost
certainly going to be something useful in it somewhere. Current
observations place the number of interstellar comets at under 10^12
per cubic parsec, but it is unlikely that there are less than 10^8
interstellar comets per cubic parsec. With published Traveller
near-magic sensors, finding at least one should not be difficult.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:04:32 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
Thom Jones-Low wrote:
> When dealing with planets or stars, these variances are relatively
> insignificant. But when dealing with small bodies like the comets, you
> can emerge from jump space on the surface of the comet.
The chance (as I have posted before) is under 1 in a trillion. Now,
in your Traveller universe people may factor such microscopically low
probabilities into their actions. Not in mine.
Of course, in such a Traveller universe, no-one uses jump drive at
all, since the chance of fatal misjump is billions of times higher
than the chance of randomly emerging on a fatal path with a comet. In
fact, the people in such a universe would probably be quivering
nervous wrecks due to the horrible risks they face in such
certain-death situations as going to sleep. Probably the only reason
they do so is that the risks of *not* going to sleep are even worse!
> But I'm working under the assumption of building a commercial
> deep space which in the risk averse Imperium would mean building it
> around a small moon size chunk of ice.
I'll leave aside the insane risks involved in getting anywhere near a
body with such a high escape velocity, and just say that if one is
available, we agree. If one isn't, it would appear that your Imperial
citizens look at a 0.00000000001% chance of a dangerous emergence
vector for a smaller body and declare it "far too risky".
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:33:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Bangalore Torpedoes
In mail you write:
> It's a not well known fact, but the AIM-54 Phoenix air to air missile is/was
> nuclear-capable. (The reasoning being that they could take out a whole
> squadron of Backfires instead of just one - A friend of mine's father worked
> for Hughes)
It's familar to anyone who playeed the Avalon hill B1 bomber computer
game (I think it was B1 bomber).
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:38:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
In mail you write:
>>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>
>>So, am I a TGOO?
>
> I think -- someone correct me if I'm wrong -- that the standard is that
> you had to be on the Traveller Mailing List before it was on mpgn.com,
That's an easy one. I used to have archive of the list starting with
the first messages ever posted.
> and
> that you have published something for Traveller on paper media
> (supplement, article, adventure, etc.).
Drat!
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3681
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3682
Date: | 2/16/01 5:13:08 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, February 16 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3682
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: What is earths Diameter?
Re: boarding actions
Re: Updated TML roster?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
Re: Missiles & such
Re: Starship Bunking (was: Re: Civility and Politeness)
RE: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
RE: A Bertram Chandler
RE: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
RE: Civility and Politeness.
Re: What is earths Diameter?
RE: Hull jump grids
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
Re: A Secret History of Jump Drive [long]
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:46:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
In mail you write:
> David Weber's Honor Harrington series (which I'm also reading) is
> an interesting blend of Napoleonic Navy and SF (he dedicates the
> first book to C.S.Forester). I quite liked the first one, decent
> explanations of the tech and social stuff in the milieu (except
> perhaps how they duplicated 18th/19th c. British governmental and
> military customs). And I don't know about their ships - able to
> accelerate at 500+g's! (Some damn good inertia compensators)
There's a story where they describe the effects of a compensator
failure. Ick.
Also, there's a website (www.pegasuspublishing.com?) that has
authorized merchandise for both the Honor Harrington and Miles
Vorkosigan series. I've got to get an Elysian Space Navy baseball cap.
Also some of the "Harrington Steading" items.
And just because I'm weird, I need one of the "Barryan Imperial
Security: Interrogation Unit" T-shirts.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:17:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
In mail you write:
> on 16/2/01 2:44 am, James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain at
> alasdair.maciain@snet.net wrote:
>
>> I've always been extremely fond of A Bertram Chandler's John Grimes
>> series. Chandler was an Australian (originally English) merchant-marine
>> skipper who killed time on long voyages by writing SF, and the books are
>> *very* heavily flavoured by both the Australian and the merchant-marine
>> aspects of Chandler's own life.
>
> Hurrah. You're the only other fan of A Bertram Chandler that I've heard of.
Gee, I hadn't realized it'd been that long since I mentioned his books :-)
> several different publishers. He wrote a large number of books, of which
> I've only got a dozen or so. One day I'll track down an Aussie second hand
> SF bookstore and order a heap of them.
Check US stores such as www.powells.com. A US publisher reprinted the
whole series a few years before Chandler's death.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:21:21 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
In mail you write:
> How are female knights of the Imperium addressed? "Lady"?
"Dame" or "Sir".
Dame Edith or Sir Edith.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:25:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
In mail you write:
> Err... have you seen this week's JTAS? It's coming, and there's a sneak
> preview. Interestingly, there's a mention of primogeniture, but it fails to
> mention ultimogeniture, which would be likely found as an 'unusual
> circumstance', as well as old-fashioned patrilinear primogeniture, which is.
> Also, there's no note as to whether the Imperium uses agnatic or uterine
> lineage. But it is a sneak peek.
Translation please? I recognized about three of the "technical terms" listed.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:26:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: What is earths Diameter?
In mail you write:
> Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:
>
>>In mail you write:
>>
>> > Does anyone know what earths Diameter is?
>> >
>> > also what is our moons diameter?
>>
>>From: leech@cs.unc.edu (Jon Leech)
>>Newsgroups:
>>sci.space.tech,sci.space.science,sci.astro,sci.answers,news.answers
>>Subject: Space FAQ 04/13 - Calculations
>>Keywords: Frequently Asked Questions
>>Date: 17 Sep 1996 15:51:28 -0400
>>Expires: 22 Oct 1996 19:51:24 GMT
>>Followup-To: poster
>>Organization: University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill
>>Approved: sci-space-tech@isu.isunet.edu, news-answers-request@MIT.Edu
>>Supersedes: <math_823659535@cs.unc.edu>
>>
>>Archive-name: space/math
>>Last-modified: $Date: 96/09/17 15:40:28 $
>>
>> Compilation copyright (c) 1994, 1995, 1996 by Jonathan P. Leech. This
>> document may be redistributed in its complete and unmodified form.
> Other
>> use requires written permission of the author.
>>
>>CONSTANTS AND EQUATIONS FOR CALCULATIONS
>
> <MAJOR *SNIP*>
>
>
> Leonard, you've got *WAAAY* too much time on your hands. :^)
My newsfeed includes things like news.answers, and I have a script that
deletes the FAQS I don't care about and saves the updated ones in
\\MAIN\USENET\FAQ\.
So all I had to do was import \\MAIN\USENET\FAQ\SPACE.F04 into the
message.
I have the filename memorized because I refer to it so often during
discussions gere. :-)
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:30:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: boarding actions
In mail you write:
> Leonard,
>
> Thank you! The tokamak and MHD, while different units, could be
> essentially considered a single device for the purposes of recovery. Once
> the tokamak is back up, the MHD is making power. Sweet and simple.
> Secondary systems could then be recovered at a relative leisure. So
> what loads to the secondary systems handle, assuming the vast majority of
> electrical generation is doen by the MHD?
I'm not enough of an engineer to figure that.
BTW, there's a type of fusion reactor that I posted about a month or so
back which gives *direct* conversion to electricity. It's currently
being produced as a portable nutron source that only produces nuetrons
when you *want* them.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:33:41 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Updated TML roster?
In mail you write:
>
> Some time back, a TML member made a roster of all the TML members
> available to the rest of us.&nbsp; The list looked like this:
>
> NAME&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbs
> p;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> CITY&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
> STATE&nbsp;&nbsp; COUNTRY
> Dan
Think you could strip the HTML next time Mark?
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:39:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
In mail you write:
> Douglas Sinclair
>>Is anyone compiling a roster of Old Ones?
>
> No, for They Cannot Be Named, and a roster saying only :
>
> Great Old One number one
> Great Old One number two
> Great Old One number three
>
> is boring.
Nonsense. We can be named. It's just that when naming Us you had best
be sure that you *want* to draw Our attention.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:41:10 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Missiles & such
In mail you write:
>>>> Personally, I'm fond of the Genie. A missile that *had* to have been
>>>> designed by the ancestors of Familie Spofulam.
>
> I think the FS forebears had something to do with a weapon system called the
> Davy Crockett also.
True!
While I know that even the US military wasn't stupid enough to develop
the legendary "nuclear hand grenade" I have some vague memories of what
might be best described as a "nuclear satchel charge".
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 03:18:23 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Bunking (was: Re: Civility and Politeness)
TNE's World Tamer's Handbook also brings in the "half bunk" -- with a
volume of 7m³, masses 0.25 tonnes and costs Cr250.
The volume requirement may seem a lot when one has been aboard modern
warships (I spent 4.5 years in a 40-man berthing aboard IKE), but you
must also remember that the volume also includes head (head, as in
restroom), storage and lounge space. Being an old Navy dude, when I
design warships I use the half bunk for the common crew, the bunk for
the CPO and junior officer berthing (the latter is referred to as a
"bunk room" and may house up to six JOs), double-occupancy small
staterooms for O-3s and O-4s, and single-occupancy staterooms for O-5s
and above. The captain, and XO get single, large staterooms, as do any
flag officer embarked, his chief of staff, and the airwing (spacewing?)
commander, should the ship carry fighters or attack craft.
When doing deckplans, I put six half bunks per 2m grid square (this
gives a half meter wide rack on each side of a meter wide access
space). When actually drawing the deckplans, I put a row of stand-up
lockers at the end of each group of six half bunks, and consider each
of the half bunks to be a coffin locker. With six half racks per dton
on the deckplans, I still have 2 dtons left over for lounge space,
galley space, head space, etc for the six fellows so berthed.
Of course, as in all things, YMMV.
- --- Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net> wrote:
> John Groth wrote:
>
> > For non-frosty personnel, FF&S2 mentions the following long-term
> > berthing arrangements: Bunk (14 m^3), Small Stateroom (28 m^3), and
> > Large Stateroom (56 m^3) [FF&S2, Table 207, page 111]. Of this
> cubic,
> > half is occupied by the listed volume, with the other half
> dedicated to
> > common areas [ibid, page 78].
>
> Those bunks seem bigger than any I've ever been in. On the ship I
> was
> on, the bunks themselves (including walls and storage) occupied a
> region roughly 2.5m x 1.2m x 0.7m, for a total of 2.1 m^3, rather
> than
> 7 m^3. The rest of the bunkroom (common to 6 bunks) would have been
> about 3m x 2m x 2.1m, another 2.1 m^3 per bunk. That's only 60% of
> FF&S2's allowance of non-shared space.
>
>
> > It seems that you have spent too many terms crammed into LSP or
> General
> > Products ships. Nearly _all_ AuricTech ships feature individual
> Small
> > staterooms for _all_ crewbeings
>
> Wow, that's spacious! It woudl probably be cheaper to plate the
> walls
> with gold. (Hmm -- Given the name ... :)
>
>
> --
> IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++
> as+ so- kk--
> Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
=====
Gerry Harris
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:23:24 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
> >
> > >Dean,
> > > My usually lack of clarity led to some minor
> misunderstandings. i
> > >REALLY much take more time with my posts, instead of typing them
> > >willy-nilly.
> >
> >
> > OK, Bill...but it wasn't me that objected..it was Dave Shayne.
> >
> > Dean
>
> I'm not offended. It's not like he called me Eddie Baby or Snookums.
>
Angel Draws?
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:30:28 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
> An thair weah hav pruuf pozataive thayt rohl playin gaymz
> cauz gahdlais, aeval, atheeistaic cahmyounizm. Thais fowl
> Chainaiz fif cahlumnist haiz infiltaites oah beluvved
> cuhntry youzing th' naim of Cherryl. [1]
>
> Solomani Confederation Undersecretary of Cultural Affairs
> Newman
>
> [1] Itzs fonettic, rahyed it laik it dun be rote.
>
Wot I dah't fahking undahstand is the Newman's fahking stupid ahksent.
J. Street-Porter
Traveller News Service
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 03:40:50 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:
>
> "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au> wrote
>
> [snip of long useful article]
>
> One key reason for the shortage of donor organs is that
> you can't buy and sell them. Of course demand exceeds supply,
> since we're not at a market equilibrium price.
Would you really like to see that? That's about the only way I can
see actual organlegging coming about. Poor people would be
selling one of their kidneys on ebay and some of the urban legends
about involuntary kidney removal would come true. IMHO some
things should *never* be on the open market <shudder>.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:38:24 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: A Bertram Chandler
Gordon Hundley wrote:
> Hurrah. You're the only other fan of A Bertram Chandler that I've
> heard of. I love his books. They're not so easy to find in the UK.
I'm a fan of A Bertam Chandler, too. And I'm in the UK. I have
several of his books and the best source I've found todate has
been Forbidden Planet (just off Oxford Street in London) ... they
used to have a sizable selection of his books. I haven't checked
in a few months so I can't say if this is still true.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:56:58 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
> >
> > [snip of long useful article]
> >
> > One key reason for the shortage of donor organs is that
> > you can't buy and sell them. Of course demand exceeds supply,
> > since we're not at a market equilibrium price.
>
> Would you really like to see that? That's about the only way I can
> see actual organlegging coming about. Poor people would be
> selling one of their kidneys on ebay and some of the urban legends
> about involuntary kidney removal would come true. IMHO some
> things should *never* be on the open market <shudder>.
>
Such as a William Shatner's 'Best of...' Album
The horror, the horror...
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:59:37 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
>
> Thank you Mr. Broussard. I've known of "Sharpe" books from my father
> and in the library but hadn't recalled them til now, I'll add them to
> my list. :)
>
> I like that view of the Imperial Marines as well.
>
> Rob D.
Also check out the TV adaptions of the Sharpe series starring Sean Bean (008
from Tomorrow Never Dies)
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:42:47 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: What is earths Diameter?
- --part1_a5.11a1f46f.27be7a47_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Approximately 8,000 miles in diameter at the equator and approximately
24,000 miles in circumference. You're on your own with the moon.
Shaggy3D
- --part1_a5.11a1f46f.27be7a47_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
&nbsp;&nbsp;Approximately 8,000 miles in diameter at the equator and approximately
24,000 miles in circumference. You're on your own with the moon.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_a5.11a1f46f.27be7a47_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:47:13 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Hull jump grids
Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> >From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
> "To achive this I have a design sequence mod filched off the net
> that breaks down jump drive into its components, thus battleriders
> carry integral hull grids but all other jump components are in the
> tender."
>
> Mr. Trevor,
> While your idea is interesting, I do have a question about it.
> If the riders form the rider/tender combo's hull grid and some
> or all of the riders are lost in battle, can your tender then
> jump to safety? There is a blurb in the SMC's chapter describing
> the 154th Battle Rider Squadron. In the paragraph dealing with
> the carrier; "... the carrier serves a battle control station as
> well as a centralized jump dirve for the squadron.".
Basically, its as others have already replied: The tender has
its own hull grid and is capable of independant jump. When one
or more riders attach, their own hull grids are linked into the
tender's hull grid ... a small portion of the tender's grid
around the docking points becomes deactivated (so as not to cut
the rider with the jump field). Under special circumstances a
jump net is also available which can be attached in place of a
rider and allow transportation of non-grid equiped objects (such
as the planetoid monitor from CT Supp 8. (A jump net takes time
to position and secure, thus it is unsuitable for emergency jumps
under combat conditions.) The tender has the jump drive itself,
jump fuel, and a computer with jump control software designed to
accept adjustable jump configuration parameters.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:52:11 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> writes:
>> Ms. Morgan's musings that I am simply following the standards of
>> politeness found outside the US are correct.
>
>Not everywhere! :) Here in New Zealand it's common (though less so than it used
>to be) for someone to introduce themselves or be introduced as just "Rupert",
In fact, it may surprise some to know that in my experience, there's a
lot more formal politeness in America these days than there is in
England.
Certainly, I've been addressed as "sir" more often on my few visits to
the US than I ever have been over here; and in every organisation I've
worked for everybody, from the boss on down, was on first-name terms.
The only people who are addressed as Mr/Ms/Mrs/Miss plus surname are
(a) the elderly (b) customers ;-)
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:52:11 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
"Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:
>Douglas Sinclair
>>Is anyone compiling a roster of Old Ones?
>
>No, for They Cannot Be Named,
No, no, no. They can be *named*, they just can't be *pronounced*.
Stephen
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Pengu'uinb'oy R'leyh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:53:20 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: A Secret History of Jump Drive [long]
JR Holmes <jrholmes@wi.rr.com> writes:
>I am curious, however, about in what way the vJ-1 drive proved to be
>"... incredibly reliable, efficient, easy to maintain, and cheap",
>despite the fact that the drives required such great amounts of power
>that jump dimming was a standard practice with vJ-1 drives.
They only need that huge amount of power for a very small amount of
time, right at the moment the jump field is created. Presumably it's
cheaper to shut down other ship systems and redirect the power to the
drive for a few minutes, rather than to build in an extra-large power
plant that will only be used for five minutes every two weeks.
Also, one of the suggestions I made was that jump dimming isn't only
to reduce the total power load on the system: it's to reduce the
possibility of fluctuations.
Imagine if somebody turns on their stateroom light, or boils a kettle,
just as the ship enters jump. That could send a tiny electrical spike
through the ship's circuits, and perhaps throw off the vJ-drive's
formation of the jump field by a small fraction of a percent.
Think of it as someone jogging your elbow just as you're about to pull
the trigger of a gun.
When you're trying to aim your jump to hit the 100-diameter limit of a
small planetoid one parsec away, that fluctuation could be enough to
make you miss the target - and die a horrible, drawn-out death in
jumpspace as the field slowly collapses around you...
Would you take that risk?
As for the efficiency/reliability thing: it's like comparing a modern
mass-produced motor car to a 1914-vintage aeroplane. The car is much
cheaper (at adjusted prices), easier to maintain, reliable, etc - in
fact, it's probably faster as well. Still, if you're looking for a
method of long-distance travel, the aircraft has more potential for
development.
Similarly, once the Terrans had worked the bugs out of the J-drive, it
was more efficient than the vJ-drive - because, as you point out, it
had a lower power consumption as well as being able to jump to any
point in space outside a gravity well. However, one of my assumptions
was that a factory that makes one type of drive can't simply retool
and make the other - it would require a complete replacement of its
production facilities. That takes a lot of capital, and while you're
struggling to pay back your start-up costs, your vJ-drive manufacturer
competitors (whose plant was paid for centuries ago) can undercut you.
You could even buy a prefabricated vJ-drive factory from your friendly
tocal Sharurshid rep for less money than it would take to build a new
J-drive factory. After all, the Vilani have spent millennia making
the vJ-1 drive so simple that even primitive barbarians more used to
banging rocks together can learn how to make them, and so become a
cost-effective and fully acculturated member of the Grand Imperium of
Stars.
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 03:38:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
In mail you write:
>> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 11:40:26 PST
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>>
>> In mail you write:
>
> <snip>
>
>>> common in deep space (ie not in the immediate vicinity of a star) they
>>> will probably be fairly hard to find. Sure just keep sending out scout
>>> expeditions
>>> and eventually you'll probably come across one but it could take a
> while.
>>
>> No, just send out one with a big folding array and send out *powerful*
>> radar pulses in a pseudo random pattern. Then sit there for a few weeks
>> listening for the echoes. That'll detect anything worth bothering with
>> within a light week or so.
>
> Which may or may not be anything at all. I don't suppose you have a good
> guess for the population density of comet heads in deep space? I'm thinking
> this could be a low number. (but I'm willing to accept a high one for game
> purposes.) Gas giants will of course be bigger returns but comensurately
> less likely.
The number of iceballs of comet size in a sphere that large should be
pretty big. But I'll defer to the astronomers omn the list for more
exact figures.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 03:44:20 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
In mail you write:
> DaveShayne wrote:
>> Whew. Delivering chunks of ice. I think you'll find that it is in
>> fact less expensive to ship in refined fuel than to jump in big
>> chunks of rocks.
>
> Nope. As per my post yesterday, unrefined fuel in the form of liquid
> (or solid) water, methane or ammonia is twice as dense in hydrogen as
> refined LH2.
But it makes a big difference if you figure by volume or by mass.
> I agree. A region a parsec across is a big place -- there is almost
> certainly going to be something useful in it somewhere. Current
> observations place the number of interstellar comets at under 10^12
> per cubic parsec, but it is unlikely that there are less than 10^8
> interstellar comets per cubic parsec. With published Traveller
> near-magic sensors, finding at least one should not be difficult.
Given the above figures, I get roughly 20 comets per cubic light week.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3682
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3683
Date: | 2/16/01 7:55:29 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, February 16 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3683
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Deep Space Refulling
Re: Deep Space Refulling
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: Deep Gas (was RE: Deep Space Jumps)
RE: A Secret History of Jump Drive [long]
RE: A Bertram Chandler
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Landmine clearing...
FS Jet Bike (was: Re: Q-ship design)
Re: Starship Bunking (was: Re: Civility and Politeness)
Computer Construction
RE: Automatic success in MT
More Gearhead Excess (or, How AuricTech Got Its Name) [long]
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 03:48:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
In mail you write:
>>> The smallest planetoid you can safely target with a Jump 1 drive is
>>> about 50km in diameter. Any smaller and the variability of the jump
>>> drive and the ship's real space vector may cause the ship to smash
>>> into the object before the crew has a chance to react.
>>
>> It would be possible for the ship to match velocity with the fuel
>> depot before jumping, at least to within a few hundred m/s or so. For
>> a 200m diameter or so snowball (or station), the jump limit is 20 km
>> so they can't possibly be any closer than that when they emerge. At
>> (say) 300 m/s, they've got over a minute to decelerate or avoid --
>> within the capability of any ship with 0.1G thrusters or better (20
>> seconds to realise there's a problem, 20 seconds to change
>> orientation, 20 seconds of thrust). And that's assuming a bad pilot.
>>
>
> "Over a jump distance of one parsec, the arrival point of a ship can be
> predicted to within perhaps 3,000 kilometers (on larger jumps, the
> potential error is proportionally larger)"
> Jump Space by Marc Miller, 12/26/2000 edition of JTAS online
> (http://jtas.sjgames.com )
>
> This is where you and I differ on this. To me the variability on the
> jump drive can put the emergence point inside the safe jump limit.
Not according to Marc. If you aren't using his official position on the
mattter, fine. But he has stated that ship's exit jump upon
encountering the 100 diameter limit.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:35:26
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
>Not according to Marc. If you aren't using his official position on >the
>mattter, fine. But he has stated that ship's exit jump upon
>encountering the 100 diameter limit.
IIRC this is mentioned in Tarsus that the ship exits at the 100D limit
...which kind of confused me a bit at first.
I cant shake the newbieness even after being on the list about a year :-)
Mike
- ----Original Message Follows----
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 03:48:32 PST
In mail you write:
>>> The smallest planetoid you can safely target with a Jump 1 drive is
>>> about 50km in diameter. Any smaller and the variability of the jump
>>> drive and the ship's real space vector may cause the ship to smash
>>> into the object before the crew has a chance to react.
>>
>> It would be possible for the ship to match velocity with the fuel
>> depot before jumping, at least to within a few hundred m/s or so. For
>> a 200m diameter or so snowball (or station), the jump limit is 20 km
>> so they can't possibly be any closer than that when they emerge. At
>> (say) 300 m/s, they've got over a minute to decelerate or avoid --
>> within the capability of any ship with 0.1G thrusters or better (20
>> seconds to realise there's a problem, 20 seconds to change
>> orientation, 20 seconds of thrust). And that's assuming a bad pilot.
>>
>
> "Over a jump distance of one parsec, the arrival point of a ship can be
> predicted to within perhaps 3,000 kilometers (on larger jumps, the
> potential error is proportionally larger)"
> Jump Space by Marc Miller, 12/26/2000 edition of JTAS online
> (http://jtas.sjgames.com )
>
> This is where you and I differ on this. To me the variability on
the
> jump drive can put the emergence point inside the safe jump limit.
Not according to Marc. If you aren't using his official position on the
mattter, fine. But he has stated that ship's exit jump upon
encountering the 100 diameter limit.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 03:25:17 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
On 15 Feb 2001, at 8:15, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> At 08:50 AM 2/15/2001 +0200, you wrote:
> >Isn't polygamy acceptable in the liberal US?
> Ha! Remember that North America was mostly settled by religious fanatics, and
> that influence has stayed. The US is by far the most sexually repressed place
> I've ever seen.
Actually the really big gulf only open up after the 1st WW. Up till then the
US was probably more liberal than Europe.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:25:18 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Deep Gas (was RE: Deep Space Jumps)
I haven't seen that one. If you find the issue number, it'd be an
interesting read (if I can find that issue, I only have a few Challenge
issues).
Rob
On 16 Feb 2001, at 3:29, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Deep Gas (was RE: Deep Space Jumps)
Date sent: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 03:29:34 -0000
Send reply to: traveller@lists.ient.com
> From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
> "If it were posible then you would have a very good platform for "gas
> mining..."
>
> Rob,
> Wasn't there a Challenge adventure set in the Hard Times era dealing
> with a petroleum-lacking world sending vessels in to a giant to harvest a
> chemical "rain" for industrial puposes? The world in question could build
> in-system craft; fusion rockets I believe. They'd send them out in convoy
> with a starship to the giant, spend a few days floating through the clouds
> collecting the rain, and then heading home.
> I believe pirates were involved too.
>
>
> Larsen
>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
- --
Rob
You can't sit on the lid of progress.
If you do, you will be blown to pieces. -- Henry Kaiser
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:24:35 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: A Secret History of Jump Drive [long]
TML@stempest.demon.co.uk wrote:
> Also, one of the suggestions I made was that jump dimming isn't
> only to reduce the total power load on the system: it's to
> reduce the possibility of fluctuations.
>
> Imagine if somebody turns on their stateroom light, or boils a
> kettle, just as the ship enters jump. That could send a tiny
> electrical spike through the ship's circuits, and perhaps throw
> off the vJ-drive's formation of the jump field by a small
> fraction of a percent.
The preveous house I used to live in (a few years ago) used to
suffer 'jump dimming' every time the washer/dryer started its
spin cycle. The lights would dim, the TV would flicker, and the
computer would reboot! At the time I just put thus down to poor
domestic wiring. Seems funny to think high tech starships having
the same problem.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:57:09 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: RE: A Bertram Chandler
At 08:06 PM 02/16/2001 +1300, you wrote:
>He wrote 23 stories in the sixties, including 19 novels and two collections
>averaging two books per year. Here's the ones mentioned in the article
>
>"Change of Heart" (New Worlds, September 1961)
>"To Run the Rim" (Astounding, January 1959)
>"The Rim of Space" (Avalon/Ace 1961)
>"Spartan Planet" (Fantastic March-May 1968) (for which he won the first
>"Ditmar" award)
>"The Bird-brained Navigator" (Worlds of If, 1968) (with illustrations by
>Vaughn Bode!)
My personal favorite of Chandler's work is "The Far Traveller" in which
Grimes is employed by the Baroness Michelle d'Estang, owner of the deep
space yacht, Far Traveller. The yacht is constructed of gold and has a
crew of 1, the captain. It is controlled by "Big Sister", the ship's
AI. For me, this book is a good illustration of what the emerging pocket
empires will find after the long night.
Kurt Feltenberger
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
~Stephen Decatur
mailto:kurt@blazenet.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:19:26 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
<<snip>>
>
> And just because I'm weird, I need one of the "Barryan Imperial
> Security: Interrogation Unit" T-shirts.
I have one of those. As an interrogator myself, it seemed appropriate.
;-)
Actually, that is an MOS which I share with David Drake (he was an
interrogator in Vietnam). When I returned from Operation JUST CAUSE, I
attended a con in Boston (Arisia, IIRC), and had a chnace to swap war
stories with David Drake.
ObTrav: Drake's works are easily mined for Traveller scenarios....
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:27:55 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
Stephen Tempest wrote:
>
> "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:
>
> >Douglas Sinclair
> >>Is anyone compiling a roster of Old Ones?
> >
> >No, for They Cannot Be Named,
>
> No, no, no. They can be *named*, they just can't be *pronounced*.
>
> Stephen
>
> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Pengu'uinb'oy R'leyh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
Uhhh, perhaps you shouldn't have posted that.
As soon as I read that post, Netscape "performed an illegal operation"
and shut down.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:28:27 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
On 16 Feb 2001, at 3:44, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> > I agree. A region a parsec across is a big place -- there is almost
> > certainly going to be something useful in it somewhere. Current
> > observations place the number of interstellar comets at under 10^12
> > per cubic parsec, but it is unlikely that there are less than 10^8
> > interstellar comets per cubic parsec. With published Traveller
> > near-magic sensors, finding at least one should not be difficult.
>
> Given the above figures, I get roughly 20 comets per cubic light week.
Hmm - does that mean that if a ship has [mis]jumped into an empty hex
and is left without fuel for the jump drive, they have a not
insignificant chance of finding and reaching a source of unrefined
fuel? (Assuming they have a processing plant.)
Rob D.
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam
possit materiari?
How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could chuck wood?
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:29:29 -0800
From: Tod Glenn <webmaster@travellercentral.com>
Subject: Re: Landmine clearing...
on 2/15/01 9:42 PM, Gordon Hundley at gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk wrote:
> on 16/2/01 1:04 am, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:
>
>> It really all depends. My wife (an explosives expert) related the story of
>> a huge balst in an Israeli town. Some distance away, a boby builder working
>> out on his roof was killed by reflected pressure wave. weird.
>
> Did he die when he hit the ground, or did the wave itself kill him?
He was found dead on the roof. For a while the cause of death eluded the
police.
Tod
- --
"There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern.
They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters."
-Daniel Webster
- --
Tod L Glenn
webmaster@travellercentral.com
http://www.travellercentral.com
http://www.spinwardmarches.com
http://www.solsec.org
http://www.grandsurvey.com
http://travellerguns.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:37:07 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: FS Jet Bike (was: Re: Q-ship design)
Ian or Katts wrote:
>
<<snip>>
>
> PS Our competitors would slander us by stating that 'operator safety' did not appear on the list of FS
> design goals. At FS, your safety comes first, second and third.
>
> PPS There is no truth to a recall notice on the Jet Bike. All instances of product failure can be
> attributed to operator error (could someone re-post the Jet Bike ? Think of it as a ME-262 rigged up for
> personal transport).
As per your request:
**begin repost (original posted 18 Mar 2000)**
The Famile Spofulam Jet Bike.
Maximum speed of 1050 km per hour, accelerating to that speed with 87
seconds of thrust. A total thrust-time of 172 seconds is provided.
Fuelled by 100 kg of hypergolic fuel, this baby tests the pilot to the
absolute limit.
Needless to say, this is a high performance, fly-by-2mm-steel-wire
aircraft for the discerning gentleman. Knowledge of computer assisted
flying programs is not a requirement. Prospective owners are advised to
check with local authorities regarding environmental issues and flight
control requirements.
Pilots are strongly advised not to remove the safety interlocks, as
doing so may invalidate the warranty on the vehicle and thus subject the
operator to severe legal risks if the vehicle goes uncontrolled and
damage to life or property occours.
The total unit masses 300 kg, and have a frame designed to support 400
kg. Intending operators of more than 100 kg mass are advised to
contact your local Famile Spofulam representitives about custom models.
*********************************************************************
1.7 kN thrust Hypergolic Liquid Rocket ; 0.013t, KCr 23. Consumes 2.074
m3 fuel per hour
100 kg of hypergolic fuel (hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide = "Ditzie's
Favorite Gloop") will therefore last 172 seconds, and cost Cr 40.
0.4 t Transonic airframe ; 0.04t, KCr
Basic Mechanical Crewstation ; 0.1 t, KCr 0.3
100 kg pilot ; 0.1t, KCr Free
35 kg Parachute ; 0.035t, KCr 1
Max speed 1100 km per hour. 5 maneuver points. 0.17 maintenence points.
KCr 38.3 (TL6 credits, too). Accelerates at 3.325 m/s, or about 12 km
per hour per second. Glide ratio of 10%.
NB If you leave the pedal on the metal, the airframe breaks up once it
goes over 1100 km per hour in a standard atmosphere. We cannot either
confirm or deny rumours of the release of a racing model at this point
in time.
Referees notes : I guess you should put "Jet Bike" into the Vehicle
cluster. This thing is suicide on a stick, in my opinion.
(c) Ian Whitchurch 2000. Not to be reprinted without permission, but
personal use is OK.
**end repost**
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:35:10 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Starship Bunking (was: Re: Civility and Politeness)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
"Being an old Navy dude, when I design warships I use the half bunk for
the common crew, the bunk for the CPO and junior officer berthing (the
latter is referred to as a "bunk room" and may house up to six JOs),
double-occupancy small staterooms for O-3s and O-4s, and single-occupancy
staterooms for O-5s and above. The captain, and XO get single, large
staterooms, as do any flag officer embarked, his chief of staff, and the
airwing (spacewing?) commander, should the ship carry fighters or attack
craft."
"When doing deckplans, I put six half bunks per 2m grid square (this
gives a half meter wide rack on each side of a meter wide access space).
When actually drawing the deckplans, I put a row of stand-up
lockers at the end of each group of six half bunks, and consider each
of the half bunks to be a coffin locker. With six half racks per dton
on the deckplans, I still have 2 dtons left over for lounge space,
galley space, head space, etc for the six fellows so berthed."
Mr. Harris
Your descriptions and deckplan rules of thumb are excellent. Far
beeter than the screed I posted earlier.
I helped build a few Ohio class boomers while getting my degree. Most
of the crew live in 9 man "suites" tucked between the missile tubes in
"Sherwood Forest". Each "suite" as a honest-to-god door seperating it from
the rest of the compartment. The rack and locker space were the same as
described earlier, but the suite seemed to have more "elbow" room in it.
I've tried to follow this layout in my few deckplans; berthing areas cut up
into 9 or 12 man "suites".
Please note that the choice of the word "suite" was made by the yard
and not the crew. Perhaps Electric Boat is an ancestor of Auric-Tech?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:39:44 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: Computer Construction
This week, following the award of my New Years bonus, I finally purchased my
new PC. Rather, being a techie I purchased the components and attempted to
scratch build it. All went well, until I tried to boot my creation, and
discovered that a minor incompatibility in RAM meant that I have a big
useless box of sand on my desk...at least until I get the right RAM.
OB-TRAV: OK, we all know the 3I prefers standardised parts as they're better
for interstellar trade. However..there's compatible and there's COMPATIBLE.
A single digit out in the order code (from GF I think) can result in either
a wildly different item from ordered ('Hey, I wanted a 64T GT7 RAM module,
this is the thrust governor from a Spofulam Jet Bike!') to the subtle
(...'this a a 64T GT7a RAM module...it's totally incompatible but apart from
the model number utterly indestinguishable from the GT7.')
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:42:00 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Automatic success in MT
Trent wrote:
> For simple tasks, this is a DM of +2 or higher, for routine
> tasks the DM is +6 or higher; I'm tempted to declare by fiat
> the DMs to be +3 and +7, both for the aesthetics of matching
> the difficulty profile, and also because I'm not crazy about
> the idea of a stat 5, skill-1 character being 100% automatic
> with ANY task, no matter how easy.
This looks good (at least on paper) ... I'll have to give it a
try.
One solution to your "stat 5, skill-1" problem would be to only
consider the skill level bonus when deciding if qualified for the
auto success option. Thus, while the "stat 5, skill-1" character
may have the same base odds of success as a "stat 1, skill-5"
character he will (from not qualifying for auto success) have a
greater risk of fumbles.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:57:15 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: More Gearhead Excess (or, How AuricTech Got Its Name) [long]
Since the TML has recently seen a number of new subscribers, I felt that
it was about time to repost the ship that epitomizes the AuricTech
design philosophy.
Share and enjoy!
**begin repost (original post 3 Apr 2000)**
From the Spinward Defence Journal, dated 125-1117:
AuricTech Shipyards Unveils New Scout/Courier
On 123-1117, this reporter traveled to the AuricTech Shipyards facility
at Trin Downport Prime to see the latest AuricTech project, a heavily
modified Type S 100 dton scout/courier. Upon my arrival at the
AuricTech facility, I met with AuricTech's Chief Executive Officer, Dame
Jenifer Rearden-Taggart. Dame Rearden-Taggart provided me with a set of
technical specification documents concerning their new ship, then led me
into Production Bay 23.
My first impression was someone had taken a wax model of a regular Type
S and left it in the heat for a while. While it retained the classic
wedge configuration of the standard Type S, it seemed rounded. Dame
Rearden-Taggart pointed out that, as was mentioned on the spec sheet,
this ship was heavily stealthed. The ultra-black configurable finish
had two sections that were set to display the ship's name:
_Scandalous_. When I commented on the odd name, Dame Rearden-Taggart
smiled and told me that the name was computer-generated, from a list of
adjectives beginning with the letter "S." She added that the lack of
improvements in the basic Type S in over 1100 years was itself a
scandal, in her opinion.
Once inside the ship, the differences became even more obvious. This
ship mounts a truly dizzying array of facilities, especially when
compared to the Type S that the IISS issued me when I retired.
Scandalous carries everything from a laboratory to a sick bay, along
with an incredible sensor suite. The AEMS has a range nearly 27 times
greater than that on the typical Type S, while the PEMS has a range
increase of over 50,000 percent. A 10,000 AU directional radio receiver
and targeting LIDAR round out the sensors. To complement the stealth
features of the hull, _Scandalous_ sports a modest ECM suite, as well as
IR and neutrino masking. Data processing, maintenance, and ship control
are supported by three fiber-optic computers, backed up by three flight
computers.
Dame Rearden-Taggart then showed me some of the crew amenities.
_Scandalous_ is equipped with one small and four large staterooms, along
with a four-sophont emergency low berth. To help maintain crew morale
and fitness during extended deployments, _Scandalous_ has a crew gym.
The small galley has enough storage capacity to support a crew of five
for up to 26 weeks, with ample fresh and frozen provisions. These
rations were supplemented by another 13 weeks worth of standard Imperial
emergency rations.
We then toured the engineering spaces of _Scandalous_. The ship draws
power from a 77.7 MW Wilcox and Babcock standard fusion power plant,
with sufficient fuel for one standard year. Admiral Electric thrust
plates drive _Scandalous_ at 2-Gs acceleration under full load. The
MultiFlow Corporation life support system is geared to providing
extended life support, without the odor problems often encountered on
standard Type S ships. The Hieronymous fuel system can refine a full
load of fuel in less than 9 standard hours. Naturally, a scoutship
without adequate communications is of little use. For this reason,
_Scandalous_ mounts a 1,000 AU range radio transceiver, along with two
1,000 AU range laser communicators. Two additional 1,000 AU laser comm
systems and a 50,000 km range radio transceivers provide backup, in the
event of equipment damage.
Other important features of _Scandalous_ include a 61 MJ laser with
master fire control and point defense capability, a sandcaster, and an
arms locker. _Scandalous_ is also equipped with provisions to carry the
2 dton VA-1 utility landing vehicle in a docking ring. The 5 dton cargo
hold is equipped with a small cargo handler, able to move loads of up to
four metric tons.
Overall, I found AuricTech's new scout/courier to be a technological
tour de force, far more capable than the standard Type S.
Unfortunately, all of these capabilities come at a steep price: over MCr
627 per ship. This is just too much ship, for too much money, for too
small a mission.
AuricTech Shipyards _Scandalous_ Modified Type S Scout/Courier
Tons: 100 std (AF Wedge Hypersonic)
Dimensions: 35 m x 24 m x 10 m
Volume: 1400 m3
Cargo: 5 std (1 hatches, Hdl: 1 x 4 t)
Mass (L/C): 986 t / 896 t
Maintenance Points: 31
Passengers High/Med: None
Crew: 2 / 4
Frozen Watch: 0
Cost: 627.955 MCr (Cost Multiplier 1)
Tech Level: 15
Size: 8
Electronics
Controls: Holographic, Standard automation. 3 x FltComp (CM: .3 CP:
3.33). 3 x FibComp (CM: .3 CP: 3.33). Terrain-following sensors (TF:
570, NOE: 190). No bridge.
Communications: 1 x Directional radio receiver (10,000 AU, 0.02 MW). 1 x
Radio transceiver (1,000 AU, 0.2 MW). 2 x Laser (1,000 AU, 0 MW).
Sensors: 1 x PEMS (14 [50 mkm], 0.05 MW). 1 x AEMS (12 [1.6 mkm] LP, .5
MW). 1 x LIDAR (14.5 [500 kkm], 0.5 MW).
Survey/Science: None
ECM: 1 x Radio Jammer (500,000 km, 0.33 MW). 1 x Deceptive Jammer (11,
0.2 MW). 1 x Passive Jammer (14, 0.1 MW). Extreme IR Masking. Neutrino
Masking. Stealth-3. Ultra-black coating.
Signatures: Vis: -1.5, IR: -2 (-2 at 60 MW, -2.5 at 8 MW), Act: -1, Neu:
- -2, Grav: 0
Performance
2 Jump (10 std/pc fuel)
2 / 2.2 Maneuver (Thruster: 48 MW)
No Contra-grav
2236 kph/2444 kph Atmosphere Maximum
1677 kph/1833 kph Atmosphere Cruise
2 Power (Fusion: 77.7 MW,1yr)
0 Battery
20.6 Fuel (Scoop:2 / Purif: 9, 1 MW)
1/4/0/1 Accommodations (SmStRoom/LargeStRoom/Low Berth/Emgy Low Berth)
130 Life Sup. (Type:Extended, Good Food/Storage)
2 G-Comp
1 x Sandcaster (AV: 79, 31 cans)
10 [29] Armor, 10 Structure
Weapons: 1 x 61 MJ Laser Turret (+6) 1 /2-2-2-2 [1,100/20-20-20-20]
(LR) RoF: 100. PD RoF: 800.
Features:
1 x Airlock
1 x Laboratory (8 std)
1 x Sickbay (8 std)
1 x Gym (2.5 std)
1 x Armory (.14 std, Cap: 4)
1 x Ship's locker (.05 std ea.)
1 x Ordinary Galley (Cap: 5)
Small Craft: 1 x Docking Ring (2 std), with 1 x VA-1 Utility Landing
Vehicle (cost MCr 1.149)
Backups
Drives: None
Screens: None
Communications: 1 x Radio transceiver (50,000 km), 2 x Laser (1,000 AU).
Sensors: 1 x LIDAR (14 [200 kkm]).
ECM: None
Power & Fuel: None
Crew Details: 2 x Maneuver. 1 x Gunner. 1 x Screen.
Note: This ship uses the unofficial fuel in waste space rule.
Designer's Notes (OOC):
This is the descendant of the ship that gave AuricTech its name.
A while back on the TML, someone asked about designing the Type S using
FF&S2. Well, when I sat down to give it a try, I was appalled at the
weak sensor fit on the Type S as listed in the T4 rulebook. After all,
the sensor fit of 2A 3P 0J translates to only a 60,000 km range for the
AEMS, a 90,000 km range for the PEMS, and no jamming capability. So, I
added the largest, most powerful sensor suite that would fit. After
all, what good is a nearsighted scout? I then decided to stealth the
hell out of my design, since an undetected scout is much more
effective. By remaining undetected, not only does it avoid engaging in
combat (if you can't see it, you can't shoot it), it also prevents the
target of the scouting effort from knowing that it is under observation.
Eventually, I ended up with a 100-ton ship that cost MCr 469.656 per. A
hell of an effective scout, but a bit pricey for most missions. When I
posted some of my figures to the TML, Ian Whitchurch (IIRC) observed
that this thing had solid gold plumbing. Hence, I adopted the name
AuricTech Shipyards as my nom de plume for ship designing.
Yet I wasn't finished.
Other items clamored to be included. I added a 10,000 AU directional
radio receiver, to allow collection of signals intelligence. It also
made sense to include a laboratory, for on-site research. These
additions suggested the addition of backup flight computers, to allow
routine operations to continue while the main computers were working on
intercepted messages or scientific problems. For emergencies, I
included an emergency low berth. To enable the ship to remain on
station for extended deployments, I added features such as a gym, better
rations, and a sickbay. In the end, I ended up with the ship described
above: a highly capable scout, which costs just under 29 times as much
as the standard Type S.
It's _good_ to be AuricTech!
**end transmission**
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3683
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3684
Date: | 2/16/01 9:51:17 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Friday, February 16 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3684
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Deep Gas (was RE: Deep Space Jumps)
RE: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
RE: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
RE: Misleading PLace names (was: Muppet Strikes Again.)
[TML] What's in a name? (was: Deep Space Jumps)
RE: Civility and Politeness.
Great Old Ones...
Re: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Civility and Politeness.
RE: Civility and Politeness.
RE: FS Jet Bike (was: Re: Q-ship design)
RE: FS Jet Bike (was: Re: Q-ship design)
[none]
Re: Nasty cargo bays...
Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:53:30 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Gas (was RE: Deep Space Jumps)
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
"I haven't seen that one. If you find the issue number, it'd be an
interesting read (if I can find that issue, I only have a few Challenge
issues)."
Rob,
A kind soul responded to my post with far much better information. It
is found in a MT module known as "Assignment: Vigilante" set in the Hard
Times era.
It concerns the merc crew of a liner converted into a "pocket" carrier.
One of their tickets involves convoying the harvesting vessels during the
round trip to the giant. I remember it having a wonderful color coded deck
plan for the "pocket" carrier.
The post was on 14 Feb 01.
Larsen
P.S. Among your few issues, might you have part or all of Terrence McInnes'
"wet navy" design rules? Most, if not all, of my issues are on permanent
loan.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:03:27 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
>> It's not conical, (It was published in the Variant section of JTAS,) but
in
>> "Imperial Law; Before the Docket in the Third Imperium" I postulate that
>> Imperial courts do not typically impose punitive damages.
>
>I'll look it up when I have some time. Didn't realize you were speaking
about
>YTU.
>
>> I might even go
>> farther and say that although individuals can sue a Megacorp, the usual
>> Megacorp response is to use every legal means to defend themselves.
>
>Where could an individual sue an MC? What Court? An Imperium Court
>I assume? What is the legal basis of it's foundation? Are Imperial
agencies
>subject to the jurisdiction as well, i.e., could an Imperial citizen sue
the
>Imperium or an Imperial agency (which will necessarily include nobles)
>in an Imperial court?
>
>
According to my article
"Civil Court Often called the Contract Court, this court is strictly
confined to adjudication of contract disputes and other matters of civil
law. The Imperium is completely uninterested in domestic matters -- there is
no Imperium divorce or family court, no separate juvenile court -- making
this court's cases quite diverse. However, civil proceedings can be divided
into three categories, each handled differently."
The article then goes on to explain Small Claims, Civil and Contract Court.
Small claims is really a bureaucratic hearing, which is handled by a minor
government official, perhaps the Port Director, if the issue involves
litigants at the starport. Civil courts hear cases concerning "...larger
sums or non-criminal wrongful death .... A minor noble will usually preside
at the hearing and involved parties might be allowed to make their case
before him. A solicitor is allowed to speak for each of the litigants, but
typically only the noble can call witnesses, to clarify points. Redress is
limited to fiduciary recompense. Fines or penal awards are not allowed."
The last "Contract Court handles matters of major contract litigation.
Decisions are made by a board of one to three nobles."
Elsewhere in the article I postulate that most Imperial Courts are
Inquisorial, but Contract Court is Adversarial. With over a millennium of
case law from Imperial courts across 1100 worlds I suspect these cases will
not go quickly.
>> What
>> this means is that no individual could survive the 25 to 75 year long
trial
>> that would result from a Megacorp lawsuit.
>
>Why would it take that long? And we have Anagathics. And the heirs
>of the injured individual have an interest too.
Quite true. The rich will have access to Anagathics, and their heirs will
have an interest in the outcome too. But if lawyer fees have to be paid as
you go (which is how I would make it) then only those with adequate income
will be able to afford to go to court, which is the way I think the 3I would
be. After all we're not talking a democracy here, were talking a form of
feudalism. The system is suppose to be slanted toward the rich and noble (In
an obvious way, not just in the de facto way the real court system in the
U.S. is.)
>
>> That's why the typical Civil
>> Contract Court case is between Corporations and can last generations. 3I
>> corporations (unlike U.S. companies) take the long view, and will remain
in
>> court as long as they might possibly win.
>
>Well, it isn't up to them. It's up to the lawmaker (Emperor?) that
>creates the courts and laws the courts enforce. If the court system allows
>a case to be dragged out, then so be it. But there are all kinds of ways
>to speed things up. Limiting the time and possible scope for appeals
>of right is a real easy way. Where you have nobles that get involved in
>a court system, it becomes very likely, IMHO, that appeals of any
>court decision will only be possible when permission is granted from
>the relevant noble authority.
I expect that when it comes to cases heard by the Contract Court all cases
will involve the nobility, which is one of the reasons it will take so long.
They won't be in a great hurry. Better to delay as long as possible and hope
the whole thing blows over. Why would the court officers want this? Well is
they're paid an extra retainer, by the Imperial government for sitting on
the court, and the amount is large enough for minor nobles to consider the
money a nice supplement, why would they want the case to end? A minor noble
could make an entire career of hearing a case concerning a dispute between
two Megacorps. Maybe that's why Megacorps have Trade Wars. It's a lot faster
way to resolve a dispute than to take a competitor to court. I expect that
the nobility will extend the time and scope of appeals with the purpose of
slowing down the cases.
>
>Another potential problem: Canonically, the Emperor owns a 2% stake
>in all the MCs and LICs. So, the Imperium itself has an interest in one
>of the litigants. That's a pretty clear bias and would make the courts
>a complete joke.
>
>bloo
Exactly. A government of men not laws. The system is stacked so that the
average Eneri has almost no chance of winning a case against either a
Megacorp, a noble or anyone with a large sum of money. The deck is so
stacked that the average citizen would not even consider going into contract
court. The Megacorps (or the rich) won't hesitate to bring a small shipper
or factory owner to civil court, where the presiding noble is most likely to
see things their way. The best chance the PC's, or regular NPC characters
have is probably in small claims court, where a minor bureaucrat might just
be impartial enough to give them a fair hearing. Note that "small claims" in
this case can extend into MCr. Were talking relative values here. Megacorp
suits probably concern Billions or Trillions of credits.
The article also covers the criminal court system, which is structured quite
differently.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Steve (Bloo) Daniels
Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 11:40 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:10:14 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Muppet Strikes Again.
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
> > >Isn't polygamy acceptable in the liberal US?
>
> > Ha! Remember that North America was mostly settled by religious
>fanatics, and
> > that influence has stayed. The US is by far the most sexually repressed
>place
> > I've ever seen.
>
>Actually the really big gulf only open up after the 1st WW. Up till then
>the
>US was probably more liberal than Europe.
>
The folks I've dealt with "overseas" unfortunately form their opinions
of the US through occurrances in New York City or Los Angeles. This is due
to our mass media outlets being centered in those two areas for the most
part. The media's intellectual laziness and reluctance to be bothered with
the rest of the nation has a part in this too.
The suggestion that either city's "culture" represents the US as a
whole would either be met with laughter or fisticuffs.
For example, thanks to LA I have been asked in all seriousness how many
highway chases, complete with live TV coverage from helos, I've had roar
past me during my daily commute. Such events occur on a weekly basis in the
City of "Angels" (a misnomer if I've ever heard one) and so are thought to
occur with the same frequency in the country as a whole.
The size of the US plays a part in this too. Aside from those in
larger nations (the former USSR, China, Ozland, Canada, etc.) most folks
have mental "blinders" that leads to a preconception of just how big a
country is. France is approximately the size of Montana for example. When
you point out that LA is 3000+ miles from New England the "blinders" come
off.
I'm always asked how far I live from NYC or LA. Just as they're always
asked how far they live from London, Paris, Rome, etc.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:09:36 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Trade Wars (was Deep space refuelling)
In mail you write:
> As there is no higher court they'd have to. IRL can't Americans sue
Federal
> agencies?
You can only sue the government (or its agencies) if it deigns to
*allow* you to.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
Very true and I expect that the Imperium will, as a matter of policy, not
allow you to sue it. If you have a problem with the government and you're a
Noble then either you take it to the noble you owe fealty too for help or
appeal to the Emperor, if you're high enough in the food chain. Or you
challenge the offending noble to a duel to solve the matter. If you're a
regular Imperial Citizen you appeal to your local noble. If he blows you
off, you're out of luck. Although it does seem (based on TNS stories) that
the 3I's government will sometimes respond to popular pressure. Of course
their response might be in the form of a IN task force. :)
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:17:28 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Misleading PLace names (was: Muppet Strikes Again.)
Larsen Whipsnade wrote:
<<<<< For example, thanks to LA I have been asked in all seriousness how
many
highway chases, complete with live TV coverage from helos, I've had roar
past me during my daily commute. Such events occur on a weekly basis in the
City of "Angels" (a misnomer if I've ever heard one) and so are thought to
occur with the same frequency in the country as a whole.>>>>
I've noticed in the UK that the cuter and 'fluffier' the name of an urban
area, the less salubrious and more nasty it actually is. For ex.: locally we
have the Totland Estate...a tower block that squats in one of the less
pleasant parts of a nearby town and is infamous locally for its' violence
and the availability of drugs (or at least it was a few years ago...its been
a while). Los Angeles obviously suffers from this affliction.
OB-TRAV: The party is warned to stay out of a certain part of Startown after
dark: Pixie Tinkerbell Gardens...
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:17:59 -0500
From: Jonathan McDermott <caraig@mindspring.com>
Subject: [TML] What's in a name? (was: Deep Space Jumps)
>Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:29:05 -0500
>From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
>Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
>
> > Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:28:12 -0000
> > From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
> > Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
>I'm not offended. It's not like he called me Eddie Baby or Snookums.
>
>David Shayne
It is rather hard to play a dashing yet cunning privateer captain, terror
of the spacelanes and yet with a heart of gold, when the pirate captain's
(IC) wife occasionally calls him 'Schmoopy' in public.
This -almost- happened... and may yet happen. Said pirate captain dreads
the day.
=)
Cheers
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 08:10:58
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
At 03:02 PM 2/16/2001 +1100, you wrote:
>Educate us youngsters!
>What year was that?
Just after TNE came out.. I'm trying to remember apartments. I *think* we
were already in EPA when we got net access, so it had to be at least mid-92.
>And what *was* the great schism?
The changes in rules and setting introduced by T:TNE cause much dissention
in the ranks. A *very* vocal contingent refused to tolerate discussion of
the new game. They formed their own list (X-Boat), which was for CT/MT
only, on pain of death! Reading both was a pain, since great piles of
material was crossposted.
A brief (musical) history of my life with Traveller:
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/saga.html
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 08:26:11 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Great Old Ones...
> >>So, am I a TGOO?
> >
> > I think -- someone correct me if I'm wrong -- that the standard is that
> > you had to be on the Traveller Mailing List before it was on mpgn.com,
Holy smoke!! I'm a TGOO!!! (I was with James Perkins when he *started*
the list back in the late 80s!)
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:51:58 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
"Given the above figures, I get roughly 20 comets per cubic light
week."
Rob,
My lack of up to date knowledge concerning Our Olde Game convinced me
to add it's books and supplements to the reading pile stacked beside the arm
chair in my den. Last night, I poured over everything I could find
regarding jump. In Gurps:Traveller I came across a few tidbits concerning
jump shadows and jump precipitation. Please note, I am assuming that OTU's
version of Grandfather, Mr. Miller, has given this his chop.
Page 120 simply states that a body as small as 1km can cause a ship
that passes within 100D of it to "fall" out of jump. However, nothing
states that this is how ALL jumps end,; I mean that use of a body to exit
jump space is required.
I think this nugget might explain a bit of the thinking behind Mr.
Jones-Low's worries about emerging too close to a target and not having time
to react before a collision. I don't believe he's entirely thought through
that idea however. A ship fearful of this happening could simply "aim" to
put it's exit point further away from the body in question.
As usual, I'd been laboring under a misconception for years concerning
jump limits. I'd thought that the ">10D, <100D limit" was routinely used by
military craft due to better navigation, equipment, etc. And that the
"always >100D" limit was for civilians.
Using the 1km/100D rule, G:T expands on the idea to take in "jump
shadows" interferring with straight line "jump vectors"; the next logical
step. Now feverish little mind has fastened on our esitmates of the number
of ice bodies interstellar space.
Most cometary, or comet-like, bodies are over 1km and could cause a
ship to "fall" out of jump space in the unlikely occurrance that it's jump
vector intersects that body's 100D limit. Uncharted or unknown bodies could
be the cause for a percentage of all misjumps.
Higher number jumps would simply add to the problem. As you pass
through more volume, your chances of an unwanted intercept would increase.
Look at a 6 parsec jump between Skull and Tureded in the Marches. The route
passes "through" 4 other systems. I am not suggestioning that all 6 systems
are on the same exact "plane" with one another, but I am raising the rare
possibility of interference.
Now think about companion stars, even extremely distant ones like the
postulated Nemesis orbitting Sol. Might the position of these stars, and
their own collection of planets, occasionally make travelling between two
systems much more difficult, if not impossible? All starships might be
forced to travel far beyond the usual 100D limit in order to have a "clear"
vector for their destination. Or they might have to choose an "aiming"
point in the target system much more distant from their destination than is
usual.
Orbits mean that these periods of interference would be regular and
predictable. I believe that the "tramlines" of Pournelle and Niven's "Mote"
series can appear and disappear this way.
Hope this provides a little grist for your mental mill.
Bill.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:13:02 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
- -----Original Message-----
From: Jones, Dean [mailto:Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 4:00 AM
To: 'traveller@lists.ient.com'
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
>
> Thank you Mr. Broussard. I've known of "Sharpe" books from my father
> and in the library but hadn't recalled them til now, I'll add them to
> my list. :)
>
> I like that view of the Imperial Marines as well.
>
> Rob D.
>Also check out the TV adaptions of the Sharpe series starring Sean Bean
(008
>from Tomorrow Never Dies)
>Dean
What is the name of the series? also is it available on tape or DVD? I dont
have a tv at home except to watch tapes or DVDs 8)
Kind of nice really dont miss a lot. I do wished i could see this new
Andromeda Series though. If anyone is taping it please let me know i would
be willing to pay for some tapes to get a copy so i can see it.
Hasta
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:23:30 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
<<<What is the name of the series? also is it available on tape or DVD? I
dont
have a tv at home except to watch tapes or DVDs 8)
Kind of nice really dont miss a lot. I do wished i could see this new
Andromeda Series though. If anyone is taping it please let me know i would
be willing to pay for some tapes to get a copy so i can see it.>>>
Called Sharpe. Amazon.com has VHS and DVD versions, amazon.co.uk VHS only.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:28:09 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: FS Jet Bike (was: Re: Q-ship design)
Ummm...
Can i use that jet bike please 8)
With some of the crazy things people do now i could just see a GJBRA form.
Guys whos sole purpose is to tinker with them, trick them out, Drink beer,
and boast about the fastest Jet Bike.
I am sure they would try to find ways to make them as Ummm.. "safe" as they
can get them 8P (please note Dr. Evil quotes around the word safe 8P)
Bill
- -----Original Message-----
From: John Groth [mailto:wombat@premier.net]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 7:37 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: FS Jet Bike (was: Re: Q-ship design)
Ian or Katts wrote:
>
<<snip>>
>
> PS Our competitors would slander us by stating that 'operator safety' did
not appear on the list of FS
> design goals. At FS, your safety comes first, second and third.
>
> PPS There is no truth to a recall notice on the Jet Bike. All instances of
product failure can be
> attributed to operator error (could someone re-post the Jet Bike ? Think
of it as a ME-262 rigged up for
> personal transport).
As per your request:
**begin repost (original posted 18 Mar 2000)**
The Famile Spofulam Jet Bike.
Maximum speed of 1050 km per hour, accelerating to that speed with 87
seconds of thrust. A total thrust-time of 172 seconds is provided.
Fuelled by 100 kg of hypergolic fuel, this baby tests the pilot to the
absolute limit.
Needless to say, this is a high performance, fly-by-2mm-steel-wire
aircraft for the discerning gentleman. Knowledge of computer assisted
flying programs is not a requirement. Prospective owners are advised to
check with local authorities regarding environmental issues and flight
control requirements.
Pilots are strongly advised not to remove the safety interlocks, as
doing so may invalidate the warranty on the vehicle and thus subject the
operator to severe legal risks if the vehicle goes uncontrolled and
damage to life or property occours.
The total unit masses 300 kg, and have a frame designed to support 400
kg. Intending operators of more than 100 kg mass are advised to
contact your local Famile Spofulam representitives about custom models.
*********************************************************************
1.7 kN thrust Hypergolic Liquid Rocket ; 0.013t, KCr 23. Consumes 2.074
m3 fuel per hour
100 kg of hypergolic fuel (hydrazine and nitrogen tetroxide = "Ditzie's
Favorite Gloop") will therefore last 172 seconds, and cost Cr 40.
0.4 t Transonic airframe ; 0.04t, KCr
Basic Mechanical Crewstation ; 0.1 t, KCr 0.3
100 kg pilot ; 0.1t, KCr Free
35 kg Parachute ; 0.035t, KCr 1
Max speed 1100 km per hour. 5 maneuver points. 0.17 maintenence points.
KCr 38.3 (TL6 credits, too). Accelerates at 3.325 m/s, or about 12 km
per hour per second. Glide ratio of 10%.
NB If you leave the pedal on the metal, the airframe breaks up once it
goes over 1100 km per hour in a standard atmosphere. We cannot either
confirm or deny rumours of the release of a racing model at this point
in time.
Referees notes : I guess you should put "Jet Bike" into the Vehicle
cluster. This thing is suicide on a stick, in my opinion.
(c) Ian Whitchurch 2000. Not to be reprinted without permission, but
personal use is OK.
**end repost**
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:45:34 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: RE: FS Jet Bike (was: Re: Q-ship design)
On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, William Lane wrote:
> Ummm...
>
> Can i use that jet bike please 8)
>
> With some of the crazy things people do now i could just see a GJBRA form.
>
> Guys whos sole purpose is to tinker with them, trick them out, Drink beer,
> and boast about the fastest Jet Bike.
Oh, yeah, flying bosozoku, just what every planet needs!
(bosozoku="teenage biker gang members")
> I am sure they would try to find ways to make them as Ummm.. "safe" as they
> can get them 8P (please note Dr. Evil quotes around the word safe 8P)
Well, everyone knows that everyone in the Shiratori Colonies is concerned
with safety and welfare, especially our youth (mwahahaha.)
My next character needs to be an ex-flying bosozoku. tee hee! someone
like Great Teacher Onizuka, who was forced by advancing age to get a real
job of some sort and suddenly finds to his great dismay that he has ethics
and morals and a sense of responsibility he never wanted.
(been reading way too much GTO lately...hehehehehehehe!)
Kiri ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:46:45 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: [none]
Gentlemen,
I have been following this thread with great interest. The ideas and
points made by all participants have been quite fascinating.
What follows is simply IMHO.
Considering that the Imperium "doesn't rule worlds, but rules the space
between them", I would hazard a guess that a citizen's ability to access a
truly Imperial court would be severely limited by both law and custom. The
Imperium would prefer that local issues stay local, and they would a pretty
broad definition as to what "local" means.
In a conscious effort to prevent an "inflationary" increase in Imperial
law, the Imperium would assidiously decline any increase in it's legal
purview to avoid both taking on the additional responsibility and angering
it's member systems. The Imperium has our own example as to how far into
the absurd "inflationary" uses of federal law can reach. In other than a
few areas like slavery or weapons of mass destruction, the Imperium would
pretty much stay above the fray.
For those members of the TML not familar with the legal machinations of
the world's largest banana republic, a few examples might be in order.
While it is against the law to be tried twice for the same "offence", you
can be tried more than twice for the same "act". Simply murdering someone
in the US (which seems to be a national pasttime) involves more than killing
him. You've also denied him his civil rights.
This example of legal "inflation" was created for an very noble cause
and was the core of civil rights legislation. Juries in certain portions of
the US routinely failed to convict murderers of one race if the victim was
of another race. So, the Feds stepped to ensure that some punishment would
occur.
However using that noble cause's example, the "inflationary" power as
been pushed to absurd extremes. One case involved sexual harassment, a
crime that should be punished. But under interstate commerce laws? That is
exactly what was attempted. The victims were to be allowed access to
federal courts to recoup their "losses" due to the harassment because it had
some how restrained their trade. Using this bit of logic (given to us by
lawyers grubbing for more fees) killing someone would be a restraint his
trade too.
This is not to say that a member of the Imperial nobility, motivated by
noble or less noble reasons, might not attempt to involve the Imperium in
legal affairs it usually does not take a role in. But, such cases would be
rare and frowned on by the noble's peers and superiors. The noble might
first have to win his case to intervene among his peers before weighing in
on a case outside the cutomary scope of Imperial purview.
Nobles in the Imperium, with the US as a perfect bad example, would be
loathe to "inflate" the legal reach of Imperial law. Under a legal system
recognizing the idea of "precedent", one step taken for a very good reason
would lead to thousands taken for silly, greedy, and political ones.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:47:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Nasty cargo bays...
On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Volker wrote:
> The topic of this mail somehow reminds me of the Cowboy Bebop episode
> 11, "Toys in the Attic". (CB is a great anime series on a bunch of
> stellar Bounty Hunters. If you get a chance to see it do so. The
> stories are great, characters are very detailed and interesting and
> the animation is excellent.)
> That episode shows what happens when a cargo goes bad... ;-)
I have this series on tape. (Don't ask me for it if you want it subbed or
dubbed, though, cuz I have it unleaded. People are always getting mad at
me for not having purchased translations that I don't need...)
I have often thought that whoever thought up the whole thing must have
played Traveller. I know that Traveller was translated into Japanese and
every now and again I see Traveller stuff in Japanese on eBay but never
when I can afford it...
Kiri ^_^
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:47:53 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Gentlemen,
I have been following this thread with great interest. The ideas and
points made by all participants have been quite fascinating.
What follows is simply IMHO.
Considering that the Imperium "doesn't rule worlds, but rules the space
between them", I would hazard a guess that a citizen's ability to access a
truly Imperial court would be severely limited by both law and custom. The
Imperium would prefer that local issues stay local, and they would a pretty
broad definition as to what "local" means.
In a conscious effort to prevent an "inflationary" increase in Imperial
law, the Imperium would assidiously decline any increase in it's legal
purview to avoid both taking on the additional responsibility and angering
it's member systems. The Imperium has our own example as to how far into
the absurd "inflationary" uses of federal law can reach. In other than a
few areas like slavery or weapons of mass destruction, the Imperium would
pretty much stay above the fray.
For those members of the TML not familar with the legal machinations of
the world's largest banana republic, a few examples might be in order.
While it is against the law to be tried twice for the same "offence", you
can be tried more than twice for the same "act". Simply murdering someone
in the US (which seems to be a national pasttime) involves more than killing
him. You've also denied him his civil rights.
This example of legal "inflation" was created for an very noble cause
and was the core of civil rights legislation. Juries in certain portions of
the US routinely failed to convict murderers of one race if the victim was
of another race. So, the Feds stepped to ensure that some punishment would
occur.
However using that noble cause's example, the "inflationary" power as
been pushed to absurd extremes. One case involved sexual harassment, a
crime that should be punished. But under interstate commerce laws? That is
exactly what was attempted. The victims were to be allowed access to
federal courts to recoup their "losses" due to the harassment because it had
some how restrained their trade. Using this bit of logic (given to us by
lawyers grubbing for more fees) killing someone would be a restraint his
trade too.
This is not to say that a member of the Imperial nobility, motivated by
noble or less noble reasons, might not attempt to involve the Imperium in
legal affairs it usually does not take a role in. But, such cases would be
rare and frowned on by the noble's peers and superiors. The noble might
first have to win his case to intervene among his peers before weighing in
on a case outside the cutomary scope of Imperial purview.
Nobles in the Imperium, with the US as a perfect bad example, would be
loathe to "inflate" the legal reach of Imperial law. Under a legal system
recognizing the idea of "precedent", one step taken for a very good reason
would lead to thousands taken for silly, greedy, and political ones.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3684
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3685
Date: | 2/16/01 12:01:45 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Friday, February 16 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3685
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Recent Double Post
Re: TGOOs
Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Re: A. Bertram Chandler
Re: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3672
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
What does Naasirka mean?
RE: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3672
re: Great Old Ones...
RE: Great Old Ones...
RE: Imperial legal structures
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
Interesting spots to visit
Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
RE: Interesting spots to visit
Re: Deep Space Jumps
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:13:39 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Recent Double Post
Gentlemen,
Please except my apologies for my recent double post to the list. It
was due to a combined human/application error and I have correced it.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:20:28 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: TGOOs
"Jones, Dean" wrote:
> Since we have TGOOs, shouldn't we also have TEGs and TOGs, as well?
And a TGC (which would be Marc)
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:22:09 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> Considering that the Imperium "doesn't rule worlds, but rules the space
> between them",
That phrase is nice propaganda. Have you read the Imperial Constitution
in Milieu 0? There's a supremacy clause. Where member world law
conflicts with any Imperial law, Imperial law wins. In the OTU, it doesn't
appear to be often exercized, but the foundation is there.
Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium so there is little doubt in my mind
that there are some legal mechanisms for dealing with conflicts between
trading partners. My personal opinion is for something along the lines
of the Uniform Commercial Code in the US (it's been a while but I
think there are significant similarities between this and the German
contract laws - been a while since I took my European law courses
though). In principle, the UCC simply codifies the ways the businesses
have found to be most efficient. It would be easy for Imperial nobles
to grant the authority to a commission or other administrative body
to arbitrate these kinds of disputes without distracting the noble from
his other concerns.
OT:-------------------
I won't go into detail to respond to your characterization of the suitability
of federal commercial clause jurisdication to redress damages caused
from a sexual harassment issue except to say this:
- financial matters effecting interstate commerce are appropriate
for that type of jurisdiction, it still has to meet the $75,000 damages
threshold; and
- the interstate commerce clause *is* hugely expansive. It covers the
waterfront. To suggest that the framers of the constitution envisioned
a world in which interstate commerce, or indeed, international commerce,
would be so easy and immediate is ludicrous. To my knowledge, none
of them have been accused of having the alleged powers of prognostication
that are attributed to Nostradamus. And not even he could have predicted
it.
If there is a good complaint in that area, it is that the US constitution has
remained 'frozen' for the most part, since it's inception. The mechanisms
to change it are there - but rusty from lack of use. If there had been
constitutional conventions every 20,30 or even 50 years, I doubt the
commerce clause would have remained unchanged.
Bloo
(I'm a lawyer but I'm not your lawyer)
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:27:31 -0500
From: "Joseph Rocchi/Toronto/IBM" <josephr@ca.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: A. Bertram Chandler
Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Hurrah. You're the only other fan of A Bertram Chandler that I've heard
of.
>I love his books. They're not so easy to find in the UK. Many were
published
>here, but they didn't stay in print long, and they were published under
>several different publishers. He wrote a large number of books, of which
>I've only got a dozen or so. One day I'll track down an Aussie second hand
>SF bookstore and order a heap of them.
>Oddly enough, the first book I picked up was called "The Far Traveller",
>published in the UK some time around when Traveller arrived here. Got my
>attention. :) In fact, his books make really good Traveller material if
>other folks here are looking for some fun inspirational fiction.
>In fact, I'm off to trawl the web for AB Chandler pages, to see what's in
>print. :)
I've read a fair number myself - they were released in the U.S. and Canada
by Daw books.
Interestly enough, the people behind Paranoia Press seemed to be Chandler
fans too, putting out (in Scouts and Assassins) plans and specs for the 150
ton "Serpent Class Extended Scout" which posessed a "mannschen-type"
J-Drive.
Joseph Paul Rocchi
IBM Global Services
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:37:24 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Hello Folks,
On the topic of corporations with differing departments...
Wouldn't it be funny if a Corporation examined the profit/loss ratio of
deep space stations of *all* their ships going through the station instead
of just the station itself, found it to be a good idea, and started their
own station? Only to discover that the bottom line improvements in their
division hurts the bottom line of another division?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:18:15
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Traveller in SF has a successful outing!
At 12:19 PM 2/7/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>Would love to go the next time the SF area travellers get together. is there
>some way to get into contact with them ?
Sorry it's taken me so long to get this meesage out, but those yahoos at
Yahoo! are denser that a starship hull.
The Traveller in SF list exists to promote the game in the Bay Area. It is
a very low-volume list, mostly dedicated to planning get togethers. Our
big annual event is the BayCon Party.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TravellerinSF
For all the information.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:31:49
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3672
At 11:55 PM 2/15/2001 EST, you wrote:
>> While I'm at it, if "Ziru Sirka" means "Grand Empire of the Stars," what
>> does "Naasirka" mean?
>
>Bread pudding
You know, if Loren ever makes it out for a BayCon Party, you *know* what
the theme will be. :)
Be warned, I live with a chef. He has an entire book of recipes for eneri.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 09:36:08
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
At 12:52 PM 2/16/2001 GMT, you wrote:
>No, no, no. They can be *named*, they just can't be *pronounced*.
>Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Pengu'uinb'oy R'leyh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
Tekeli-li! Tekeli-li!
- --
Douglas "Penguin Boy" Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
"I am the penguin bold! We sailed the sea, to tringalee,
in search of spanish gold" - The Magic Pudding - Norman Lindsay
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 10:43:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: What does Naasirka mean?
this is in response to a message from some while ago about what Naasirka
means:
Now And Again Someone Invents Really Kool Appliances
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
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Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:47:22 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: RE: Forms of address: a rebuttal
15 Feb 2001, at 13:38, William Lane wrote:
> You know this sounds like a great topic to write something up for traveller.
> I dont know of anything that covers this. of course i could be wrong.
>
> If this were a good subject then i would start out by reviewing actual
> customs in known Kingdoms for refrencing nobility. IE the french Monarchy,
> UK back then, ect.. ect..
Back in an old issue of The Dragon, there was an article entitled
"Robe and Blaster" by Charles Ahner and Rick Stuart. It presents a
Nobility variant, expanded with new titles, and gives the various ranks
priviledges and rights. I recently found an updated version,
apparently published in a different magazine (I forget which), under
the title "Scepter and Starship".
I'd be happy to type it up for everyone but I don't think that's
appropriate. If anyone knows the authors, or if they're on this list,
perhaps they could be persuaded to allow it, or put it up on JTAS.
To give a summary though, their variant was designed to fix the
situation they saw where "players [were left after creation] with
titles and no priviledges to back them up, making their characters
toothless when traditionally nobles are the most powerful (next to
multistellar corporate magnates and politicians) and *very* dangerous
when crossed."
They propose a set of new benefits/priviledges for the nobility,
rolled for when the PC is created, with more powerful benefits for
more powerful titles.
It proposes the Right of Patronage, the ability to grant a set of Merit
Benefits to non-noble (but soc 8+) characters; or to ennoble non-noble
characters (with a dice roll and involved modifiers and penalties for
failure [perhaps better if roleplayed, but the idea is there]). It
also cautions the ref that "being a noble is not all milk and honey and
[the ref] should spend a minimum amount of time working up tasks and
problems to let your player's nobles prove their worth and gain merit
thus making them worthy of more titles." Thus they hope to inspire
nobles to do get deeds in order to earn more titles, and PCs to aspire
to gaining noble status and/or benefits.
The Nobility Benefits (I'm omitting the descriptions):
Pension, Merchant House Holdings, Space Lane Carrier Holdings,
Court Influence, Ancestral Lands, Immediate Inheritance, Right of Free
Passage, Cash Grant, Fiefdom, Right of Escourt[sic], Right of Bear
Arms, Right of Commission, Estates, Governorship, Imperial Senatorial
Appointment, Viceroyship, Quadrant Leadership, Offer of Imperial
Consort, Right of Lawful Desent, Right of Decree, Nobility Creation,
Right of Pardon, Right of Taxation
Benefits by Virtue of Merit via Patronage:
Promotion, Honorary Nobility Status, Knight of the Imperium, Knight
of the Imperial Star, Knight Defender of the Realm, Use of Imperial
Court Courtesan, Use of Imperial Concubine, Imperial Trade Charter,
Right to Transport, Imperial Mercenary Charter, Imperium Scientific
Award, Grant of Extraordinary Commission.
- -----
Rob D.
- --
Rob
Millihelen: amount of beauty required to launch one ship.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:03:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3672
On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> At 11:55 PM 2/15/2001 EST, you wrote:
> >> While I'm at it, if "Ziru Sirka" means "Grand Empire of the Stars," what
> >> does "Naasirka" mean?
> >
> >Bread pudding
>
> You know, if Loren ever makes it out for a BayCon Party, you *know* what
> the theme will be. :)
>
> Be warned, I live with a chef. He has an entire book of recipes for eneri.
>
Yes, and I also make excellent eneri.
hee!
(it's one of the few things I can't screw up!)
Kiri-chan
******************************************************************************
Kiri Aradia Morgan 93! Thou Art God
tiamat@tsoft.com
"If time passes, everything turns into beauty
If the rains stop, tears clean the scars of memory away
Everything starts wearing fresh colors
Every sound begins playing a heartfelt melody
Jealousy embellishes a page of the epic
Desire is embraced in a dream..." -- X-JAPAN
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:04:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: re: Great Old Ones...
>From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
I had written:
>> I think -- someone correct me if I'm wrong -- that the standard is that
>> you had to be on the Traveller Mailing List before it was on mpgn.com,
You replied:
>Holy smoke!! I'm a TGOO!!! (I was with James Perkins when
>he *started* the list back in the late 80s!)
You've misquoted me by omission. There are at least two components to
Traveller Great Old One status: (1) on the TML before mpgn.com and (2)
published in print (like JTAS, TTC, Travellers' Digest, etc.). So you may
be old, but to be great, you have to publish.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:17:31 -0800
From: "Jesse Degraff" <jedegraf@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: Great Old Ones...
Mark is indeed published in the Traveller realm! He's a published *artist*
:) He's done deckplans and logos in several books now.
Jesse
"They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety."
- -Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Glenn Goffin
> Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 11:04 AM
> To: traveller mailing aa list
> Subject: re: Great Old Ones...
>
>
> >From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
>
> I had written:
> >> I think -- someone correct me if I'm wrong -- that the standard is that
> >> you had to be on the Traveller Mailing List before it was on mpgn.com,
>
> You replied:
> >Holy smoke!! I'm a TGOO!!! (I was with James Perkins when
> >he *started* the list back in the late 80s!)
>
> You've misquoted me by omission. There are at least two components to
> Traveller Great Old One status: (1) on the TML before mpgn.com and (2)
> published in print (like JTAS, TTC, Travellers' Digest, etc.). So you may
> be old, but to be great, you have to publish.
>
> --Glenn
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
> a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:22:31 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial legal structures
Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Considering that the Imperium "doesn't rule worlds, but rules
> the space between them", I would hazard a guess that a citizen's
> ability to access a truly Imperial court would be severely
> limited by both law and custom. The Imperium would prefer that
> local issues stay local, and they would a pretty broad definition
> as to what "local" means.
<snip>
One way to stop inflation of the Imperial legal apparatus is with
a cost/time disincentive. IMTU titled nobles have to sit in
judgement on non-local courts and have to pay the cost of running
such a court (including the prosecution charges and any legal aid
the defence qualifies for) out of their own purse. Thus it is in
the noble's best interest to "pass the buck" down to the local
judiciary where possible.
For example: Lets say that within the XT line of Yori's starport
there is a pointless bar fight which results in a fatality.
Technically this is outside the jurisdiction of the Yorian
government. However, if the Baron of Yori (aka the Duke of
Regina) is reasonably sure that the bar fight does not have any
political angle he may want to defer the trial and judgement of
the accused to the local Yorian government ... rather than spend
the time and money setting up a court for what is, to him, a
trivial matter. The local government would normally be willing
to take on this burden as their Baron *should* be representing
their interests in the interstellar arena, not having his time
wasted dealing with everyday criminal activity. Imperial laws
(in this case against murder) are a safety net that only apply
when a suitable local law cannot be found. The accused does not
have an automatic right to argue which jurisdictional rules
should be applied.
Of course, sometimes a local titled noble might want to take an
active interest in a local case but the moment he does so he ends
up footing the bill. Thus meddling in local affairs becomes a
costly hobby. Further, if the local government resents the
noble's interference they can apply to that noble's liege for
relief (they may not get it, that depends upon the liege's
opinion of the local noble's action ... and on the liege's whim).
So, in summary, there is a tendency for the Imperium *not* to
involve itself in local affairs ... even to the point of passing
technically non-local affairs into the local jurisdiction. The
Imperium is then free to deal with the genuinely non-local
affairs.
(The "problem" in the US is that the non-local authority figures
are elected by local populations. Thus they are rewarded if they
give in to lobby groups who fight for single causes without
regard to the legal system as a whole. The 3I is *not* a
democracy, so no such temptation exists.[1])
Regards PLST
[1] Except (for some reason) for Dulinor ... but he proved
himself an idiot.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:06:12 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
In mail you write:
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>
> <<snip>>
>>
>> And just because I'm weird, I need one of the "Barryan Imperial
>> Security: Interrogation Unit" T-shirts.
>
> I have one of those. As an interrogator myself, it seemed appropriate.
> ;-)
Gee, if you ever get to be in on planning the opfor for an excercise,
can't you just imagine the fun of being the Barryans? Complete with
ImpSec eyes, and the uniforms?
Yeah, I know, the brass would never go for it. But it's such a *lovely*
thought...
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:10:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
In mail you write:
> "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:
>
>>Douglas Sinclair
>>>Is anyone compiling a roster of Old Ones?
>>
>>No, for They Cannot Be Named,
>
> No, no, no. They can be *named*, they just can't be *pronounced*.
>
> Stephen
>
> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Pengu'uinb'oy R'leyh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
Ok, that does it!
http://www.sablecat.com/dst/support.html
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:44:23 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Interesting spots to visit
Between Jerusalem & Tel Aviv is the Israeli Defense Force Armor museum.
Lot's of nifty tanks, including plenty of captured Syrian armor.
They have a M-60 cut in half, the two halves about 2 meters apart. Set up
very nicely with mannequins & plexiglass to show the interior layout.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/ - Opinions should be yours too!
Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:52:27 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
"That phrase is nice propaganda. Have you read the Imperial
Constitution in Milieu 0? There's a supremacy clause."
Mr. Daniels,
I must agree with you about the supremacy clause and it's rare use.
The Imperium tolerates some extremely nasty member worlds and does not see
fit to invoke the clause for what would be a well deserved housecleaning,
hopefully perfromed by the Imperial Marines.
"Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium so there is little doubt in my
mind that there are some legal mechanisms for dealing with conflicts between
trading partners."
I must agree again. But restraint of trade does not seem to trigger
Imperial involvement.
In the RSB, there's world (the name escapes me at the moment) that was
ruled by the "Ward of Vision". Operating like a Virus Era TED, he denied
access of the planetary population to off world contact and imposed a
totalitarian government with the help of high tech devices the citizenry had
no knowledge of and thus thought were "holy" or "magic". The Regency has to
go to great lengths; by invented and promoting a liberation theology among
the masses, to effect his overthrow.
Now that world's population was completely sealed off from the
Imperium's lifeblood; it's trade. You'd think that some bright light in a
megacorp marketing division would have seen the untapped market (just think
how many greebles a billion people will buy, Eneri!) and start agitation by
the 'corp for the Imperium to "enforce" it's trade regulations. The
Imperium never did.
The "Ward of Vision" didn't mess with the trade moving THROUGH his
system and made sure that there was no trade WITHIN his sytem, so the
Imperium didn't give a tinker's damn as to whatever was occuring dirtside.
Imperial policy makers resisted the noble urge to "inflate" their commerce
laws to remove this monster. Either the Imperium has "anti-inflationay"
clauses in it's body of laws or is prevented from "stretching" things by
custom.
A feudal government with communication lags, the Imperium might be more
"legally tolerant" than the modern US.
"I won't go into detail to respond to your characterization of the
suitability of federal commercial clause jurisdication to redress damages
caused from a sexual harassment issue except to say this:
- financial matters effecting interstate commerce are appropriate
for that type of jurisdiction, it still has to meet the $75,000 damages
threshold; and - the interstate commerce clause *is* hugely expansive. It
covers the waterfront."
I wouldn't even attempt to question an expert's knowledge of his field.
It would be futile. My example of sexual harrassment came from an article
in the "Economist" a few years ago.
"If there is a good complaint in that area, it is that the US
constitution has remained 'frozen' for the most part, since it's inception.
The mechanisms to change it are there - but rusty from lack of use. If
there had been constitutional conventions every 20,30 or even 50 years, I
doubt the commerce clause would have remained unchanged."
I, for one, would be extremely leary to call constitutional conventions
even once a century. Our great luck with the "Miracle of Philadelphia"
could not be repeated. The talent displayed then is either no longer
present in our nation or does not want anything to do with public life.
The thought of the collection of braying jackasses, poltroons, moral
lepers, boobs, cowards, pinheads, prigs, and assorted vermin that would
stand for election to such a convention and then be sent there is enough to
turn my hair white. I get this picture of Ted Kennedy, Jesse Helms, Jerry
Falwell, Jesse Jackson, and extremists of every hue and stripe sitting down
with a copy of the Constitution and a 55 gallon drum of "whiteout".
In the end, we would get the government we deserve, rather than the one
we have been fortunate to inherit and not yet squandor.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:52:42
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
Thanks Leonard! I was ROFLMAO! :)
- ----Original Message Follows----
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:10:04 PST
In mail you write:
> "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz> writes:
>
>>Douglas Sinclair
>>>Is anyone compiling a roster of Old Ones?
>>
>>No, for They Cannot Be Named,
>
> No, no, no. They can be *named*, they just can't be *pronounced*.
>
> Stephen
>
> Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Pengu'uinb'oy R'leyh wgah'nagl fhtagn!
Ok, that does it!
http://www.sablecat.com/dst/support.html
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:53:10 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Steve (Bloo) Daniels wrote:
> If there is a good complaint in that area, it is that the US
> constitution has remained 'frozen' for the most part, since it's
> inception. The mechanisms to change it are there - but rusty from
> lack of use. If there had been constitutional conventions every
> 20,30 or even 50 years, I doubt the commerce clause would have
> remained unchanged.
Damned fortunate, that.
I can live with oddball and frivolous lawsuits (which can, after all, be
squashed by judges simply standing up and their hind legs and doing it)
but the hash that would have been made over the constitution if it were
completely reworked every 20-30 years means that more than likely we
wouldn't exist as a country.
The rules may not be perfect, but at least they're still the rules.
Imagine what would have happened to Bill of Rights if, foex, there had
been a Constitutional Convention in 1953. Or 1933. Or, for that matter,
1993.
- --
Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:55:52 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Interesting spots to visit
>They have a M-60 cut in half, the two halves about >2 meters apart. Set up
>very nicely with mannequins & plexiglass to show >the interior layout.
if you like that then you would like to go to the George S. patton museum at
Fort Knox kentucky. The have a German King Tiger tank cut away don simular
to that. Among all the other stuff they got there 8P
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 14:59:05 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Bill,
On 16 Feb 2001, at 16:51, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
,
> My lack of up to date knowledge concerning Our Olde Game convinced me
> to add it's books and supplements to the reading pile stacked beside the arm
> chair in my den. Last night, I poured over everything I could find
> regarding jump. In Gurps:Traveller I came across a few tidbits concerning
> jump shadows and jump precipitation. Please note, I am assuming that OTU's
> version of Grandfather, Mr. Miller, has given this his chop.
Well, I suppose so, but I'll bet if/when he gets T5 out GT will be at
best "alternative cannon".
> Page 120 simply states that a body as small as 1km can cause a ship
> that passes within 100D of it to "fall" out of jump. However, nothing
> states that this is how ALL jumps end,; I mean that use of a body to exit
> jump space is required.
It was my opinion from my reading that if a ship encountered the 100D
limit of the target star, they'd precipitate out of jump, but it was
not a requirement. The jump was calculated before engaging and the
final destination point was fixed the moment the jump bubble formed.
All you had to do then was wait out the penalizing week. I'm not sure
there was any corresponding linear travel through n-space for the jump -
just pop out, wait a week, pop in. Except once GT (or was it TNE/T4?)
and jump shadowing I think that assumption mutated or something.
> I think this nugget might explain a bit of the thinking behind Mr.
> Jones-Low's worries about emerging too close to a target and not having time
> to react before a collision. I don't believe he's entirely thought through
> that idea however. A ship fearful of this happening could simply "aim" to
> put it's exit point further away from the body in question.
Yes, it all gets back to underlying assumption of how jumping work.
Mr. J-L might have a different mental picture thereof and that his
argument to him is logical (though your point about aiming further away
is true). We could use a good set of posited mechanics for jump to
help have a common framework when answering these questions.
> As usual, I'd been laboring under a misconception for years concerning
> jump limits. I'd thought that the ">10D, <100D limit" was routinely used by
> military craft due to better navigation, equipment, etc. And that the
> "always >100D" limit was for civilians.
I'd understood that military craft could more precisely time the length
of the trip (knowing more precisely when they'd exit jump so fleet
maneuvers would more coordinated), and I think I remember something
about military craft being able to navigate better and end up closer to
the target system, reducing transit time to the inner system.
> Using the 1km/100D rule, G:T expands on the idea to take in "jump
> shadows" interferring with straight line "jump vectors"; the next logical
> step. Now feverish little mind has fastened on our esitmates of the number
> of ice bodies interstellar space.
This goes back to my understanding that there wasn't a corresponding
transit in jumpspace. When in jump, are the manuever drives running?
Do they need to be? Is the ship *moving* relative to some other point
in jumpspace? I'd ask "Can it change directions?" but I'm sure the
answer is no - then it's more like Babylon 5's hyperspace.
> Most cometary, or comet-like, bodies are over 1km and could cause a
> ship to "fall" out of jump space in the unlikely occurrance that it's jump
> vector intersects that body's 100D limit. Uncharted or unknown bodies could
> be the cause for a percentage of all misjumps.
True - if there are shadows of masses in jumpspace. I can see the
reasoning behind it, but I'm not sure how I feel about it yet.
If there are as many 1km+ bodies in space as seems to be implied, then
the chance for misjump or 'prematurely exited jumps' seems quite high.
(Then I get back to my earlier thought that if they do pop out because
a dirty ice ball sucked them out, they can probably just fuel up at the
dirt ball's expense and make another jump.
I'd like to think that self-rescue for those stranded in empty hexes is
that close (always a fear of our players - misjumping into an empty hex
with empty tanks, sometimes ref-fudged so they didn't die).
If they're that common *and* cause misjumps, I'd think we should have
seen more about it in cannon. (Though of course there's the argument
about the cannon authors not having all the time in the world to think
of these things. :)
> Higher number jumps would simply add to the problem. As you pass
> through more volume, your chances of an unwanted intercept would increase.
> Look at a 6 parsec jump between Skull and Tureded in the Marches. The route
> passes "through" 4 other systems. I am not suggestioning that all 6 systems
> are on the same exact "plane" with one another, but I am raising the rare
> possibility of interference.
Exactly - but how rare, I wonder. If it's a common enough problem,
wouldn't the 3I have tried to do something about it? Send the scout
ships to map all the bodies in all the empty hexes too, thus creating
more accurate maps with which to avoid the dirtballs and brown dwarfs,
perhaps.
> Now think about companion stars, even extremely distant ones like the
> postulated Nemesis orbitting Sol. Might the position of these stars, and
(?? Hadn't heard of Nemesis. Will have to look it up.)
> their own collection of planets, occasionally make travelling between two
> systems much more difficult, if not impossible? All starships might be
> forced to travel far beyond the usual 100D limit in order to have a "clear"
> vector for their destination. Or they might have to choose an "aiming"
> point in the target system much more distant from their destination than is
> usual.
I suppose if the ecliptics of the source and target system were in the
same plane, the chances of trouble would go way up (forcing jumps to
end far out of the ecliptic and take more time to get in-system). But
the ecliptics would more likely be in more amenable relationships,
making it not too hard. It could be another game assumption that on
average the system ecliptics are compatible.
> Orbits mean that these periods of interference would be regular and
> predictable. I believe that the "tramlines" of Pournelle and Niven's "Mote"
> series can appear and disappear this way.
Hmm, it's been a while since I read "Mote". Don't remember tramlines.
They had the "Alderson drive", right? Jump points inside stars, lines
changed over time.
> Hope this provides a little grist for your mental mill.
Definitely. Thank you!
Rob
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Fac me cocleario vomere! -- Gag me with a spoon!
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3685
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3686
Date: | 2/16/01 1:17:09 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Friday, February 16 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3686
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Deep Gas (was RE: Deep Space Jumps)
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
RE: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
RE: Civility and Politeness.
RE: boarding actions
Re: A secret history of jump drive
RE: boarding actions
Re: FS Jet Bike
Re: Deep Space Jumps
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:56:45 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Bloo wrote:
> That phrase is nice propaganda. Have you read the Imperial
> Constitution in Milieu 0? There's a supremacy clause. Where
> member world law conflicts with any Imperial law, Imperial law
> wins. In the OTU, it doesn't appear to be often exercized, but
> the foundation is there.
I'm begining to think Traveller canon is a bit like the Bible: a
lot of contradictory material which a working system can only be
a subset of the whole. So every TU is a pick-n-match of
Traveller canon. The 3I of year 0 seems quite different to the
3I of year 1100 ... either the Imperial Constitution was subject
to revision at some point, or it faded into obscurity and disuse
after a few centuries.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:00:34 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
Wow, Bill. Thanks for the great description. I certainly count
myself lucky at not having to have slept in those tight bunks (being
6'1'" and 270#s it'd not have been pleasant sleeping!). And not boring
at all - very interesting!
Rob
On 16 Feb 2001, at 3:20, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> The lack of berthing areas in any Trav design systems has always
> puzzled me too. In the very few deckplans I've drawn, I've simply used the
> tonnage alloted to those staterooms and used it to create berthing and rec
> areas aboard. Junior officers slept 2 to a stateroom (in bunks) and seniors
> got a single.
> 42 men in my divsion slept in our berthing area. Our head, one deck
> above, had 2 commodes and 2 urinals (flushed with seawater), 2 showers and 4
> sinks. The racks were stacked 3 high, not too bad when considering that
> they were stacked higher in WW2. We also had a smaller area next to the
> head that held 9 men and was called "9 man" (not very original). Senior
> members of our division slept there.
> Engineering was always undermanned, usually somewhere around the
> mid-80% range, so there were berthing areas on the ship not filled to
> capacity. I don't remember more than 1 or 2 empty racks at any given time.
> If we'd been at 100%, others in our division would have slept elsewhere.
> Undermanning meant that we normally stood "Six and sixes", 6 hours on
> watch and six hours off as long as the reactors were up. Add that to your
> maintenance and training duties and there wasn't much time for anythig else.
> I finally got to stand "four and eights" during my last 18 months or so
> after qualifying for senior watch posisitons. The watches were shared with
> the E7+ personnel. They slept in chief's berthing and only stacked two
> high.
> While underway, berthing was lit with red lights to allow the guys to
> sleep, except for the few hours it was being clean. Other than the 8 hour
> work day, half the division was tryinf to sleep at any given time.
> Laundry was stored in two huge lockers and taken to the ship's laundry
> twice a week. You might try and imagine what the socks, skivvies, t-shirts,
> pants, shirt, sheets, and towels for 42 men for 4 days smells like. My
> father, who once enjoyed a foxhole in Korea, described his impression of a
> visit to berthing rather succintly. All he said was "Feet and farts". He
> also said he'd prefer the foxhole.
> On the other side of the forward bulkhead was #2 engine room, both
> propeller shafts ran beneath the compartment, and an emergency diesel was
> just aft. The area was a "hazardous noise area" underway, requiring ear
> plugs. It was finally lined with sound proof materials on the bulkheads
> during my 3rd year there. Our commodes got stalls around them at the same
> time.
> With engineroom "next door", men could wake up and list the the
> equipment change overs and drill sets run in #2 ER during their sleep.
> Your rack was also your locker. The mattress, about 2" thick, sat atop
> the locker's lid. The locker itself was 8-10" deep and divided into a few
> compartments and a drawer. The rack measured about 6' by 2' and a reading
> lamp hung above it. "Privacy" was provided by a set of curtains. You had
> another locker, similar to the ones in your high school gym, for additional
> storage.
> My division was fortunate to have our office directly below our
> berthing area. It was tucked between the two shafts and let us watch TV,
> play games, write letters, etc. without bothering those asleep. We were
> lucky to have it.
> One side of our berthing area was formed by the ship's hull. During
> our many "visits" 12 miles off Kamchatka, ice would form on that bulkhead.
> Especially rough seas could toss men out of their racks despite our being
> below the waterline. During our visit to the Persian Gulf, the area was
> ventilated, but not air conditioned. Occasional bursts of sand would come
> through the vents. The heat made it more comfortable to sleep on the
> linoleuum deck rather than your rack.
> I hope this all ddin't bore you. But I figured I might as well provide
> as many details as possible, so you can pick up some for your campaigns.
> Have fun.
>
>
> Larsen
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
- --
Rob
'Better to understand a little than to misunderstand a lot.'
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:07:22 -0500
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Gas (was RE: Deep Space Jumps)
On 15 Feb 2001, at 23:22, JR Holmes wrote:
> Unless you were concerned about keeping your cloud city in a
> particular location in the atmosphere, allowing it to travel with
> those 100 kph winds neatly solves your problem. Should you ever
> partake a recreational hot air balloon ride, you will note that there
> is a nearly complete absence of wind since the balloon is travelling
> with the wind and remains in essentially the same volume of air as it
> moves.
Ah, very good point. Perhaps some lift-producing surfaces on the hull
could increase safety in the event of loss of lift from ballon/CG.
(Giant glider?) Maybe not it's just getting silly - there are much
better, more likely sources of fuel. (Hmm, unless it's an *alien*
facility, forced into getting fuel from the gas giant due to say,
religious reasons?)
> Storms, with up/down drafts within a relatively small area, remain a
> definite problem. Your suggestion of selecting your altitude to
> minimize turbulence has merit, but severe storms on Earth routinely
> extend outside the troposphere and would pose a problem for our city
> dwellers passively drifting along.
True. I suppose it'd end up being a big rather slow moving ship than
a station.
Rob D.
- --
Rob
More Slightly Less Common Latin Phrases:
Noli me vocare, ego te vocabo.
Don't call me, I'll call you.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:11:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
In mail you write:
> On 16 Feb 2001, at 3:44, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>>> I agree. A region a parsec across is a big place -- there is almost
>>> certainly going to be something useful in it somewhere. Current
>>> observations place the number of interstellar comets at under 10^12
>>> per cubic parsec, but it is unlikely that there are less than 10^8
>>> interstellar comets per cubic parsec. With published Traveller
>>> near-magic sensors, finding at least one should not be difficult.
>>
>> Given the above figures, I get roughly 20 comets per cubic light week.
>
> Hmm - does that mean that if a ship has [mis]jumped into an empty hex
> and is left without fuel for the jump drive, they have a not
> insignificant chance of finding and reaching a source of unrefined
> fuel? (Assuming they have a processing plant.)
Not necessarily. A light week is a *long* way. Keep in mind that pluto
is roughly 5 light hours from the Sun.
A quick calculation shows that on average it'd take a *month* at 6g to
reach the nearest such body. Well, actually around 24 days.
It'd take *two* months (58 days) to get there at 1g.
And that's assuming they've got gear good enough to find them quickly.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:18:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
In mail you write:
> Using the 1km/100D rule, G:T expands on the idea to take in "jump
> shadows" interferring with straight line "jump vectors"; the next logical
> step. Now feverish little mind has fastened on our esitmates of the number
> of ice bodies interstellar space.
> Most cometary, or comet-like, bodies are over 1km and could cause a
> ship to "fall" out of jump space in the unlikely occurrance that it's jump
> vector intersects that body's 100D limit. Uncharted or unknown bodies could
> be the cause for a percentage of all misjumps.
A *small* percentage. The odds of your course line intersecting such a
bodies 100D limit are miniscule.
Also, since it's virtually *certain* that such a body will be at least
*partly* icy, you are *guaranteed* a source of unrefined fuel,
convenient to the ship.
So they get to dig some ice, and either feed it to the fuel refiner (if
they have one (or treat it as "unrefined" fuel if they don't) and then
jump.
Which means they'll be a week or two late.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:47:40 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
In mail you write:
> I won't go into detail to respond to your characterization of the suitability
> of federal commercial clause jurisdication to redress damages caused
> from a sexual harassment issue except to say this:
> - financial matters effecting interstate commerce are appropriate
> for that type of jurisdiction, it still has to meet the $75,000 damages
> threshold; and
> - the interstate commerce clause *is* hugely expansive. It covers the
> waterfront. To suggest that the framers of the constitution envisioned
> a world in which interstate commerce, or indeed, international commerce,
> would be so easy and immediate is ludicrous. To my knowledge, none
> of them have been accused of having the alleged powers of prognostication
> that are attributed to Nostradamus. And not even he could have predicted
> it.
>
> If there is a good complaint in that area, it is that the US constitution has
> remained 'frozen' for the most part, since it's inception. The mechanisms
> to change it are there - but rusty from lack of use. If there had been
> constitutional conventions every 20,30 or even 50 years, I doubt the
> commerce clause would have remained unchanged.
Then there's that bit about trial by jury for any dispute involving $20
or more. Adjusted for inflation, that'd be several thousand current
dollars.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:07:34 -0500
From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
Subject: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Terrance Carlino wrote:
>I expect that when it comes to cases heard by the Contract Court
>all cases will involve the nobility, which is one of the reasons it
>will take so long. They won't be in a great hurry. Better to delay
>as long as possible and hope the whole thing blows over. Why would
>the court officers want this? Well is they're paid an extra retainer,
>by the Imperial government for sitting on the court, and the amount
>is large enough for minor nobles to consider the money a nice supplement,
>why would they want the case to end? A minor noble
>could make an entire career of hearing a case concerning a dispute between
>two Megacorps. Maybe that's why Megacorps have Trade Wars. It's a lot
>faster way to resolve a dispute than to take a competitor
>to court. I expect that the nobility will extend the time and scope
>of appeals with the purpose of slowing down the cases.
I suspect that if a minor noble made a habit of such slowdowns,
his boss might get ticked at him and give his minor nobleship
to someone else. Duty - or at least the appearance of adherence
to duty - should be very important in the feudal power structure
of the Imperial nobility. Dragging out a case for personal gain
would be a dereliction of duty on at least two counts - duty to
the respectability of the court, and duty to the Imperial subjects
appearing before the court.
It might be a better idea to have nobles oversee courts because
it is their responsibility to do so, not because they are
paid for doing so. Since many nobles have incomes from the
estates associated with their title, it shouldn't be too much
of a sacrifice to make them do it for free.
This assumes that the nobles with estates aren't so busy
keeping their estates afloat that they don't have time
for courts, and assumes that the parties to the case aren't
so big that the outcome of the case will affect the estates
of all the local nobles.
Walt Smith
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:07:28 -0000
From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Bloo wrote:
> Trade is the lifeblood of the Imperium so there is little doubt
> in my mind that there are some legal mechanisms for dealing with
> conflicts between trading partners.
On evidence there seems to be a distinction drawn between the
right to free trade between member worlds (which the 3I protects)
and a member world's right to nurture or suppress itself as a
market to free trade. I think the reason may have been touched
on an a recent thread about "state rights" and public opinion.
Regards PLST
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:19:58 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
>I suspect that if a minor noble made a habit of such slowdowns,
>his boss might get ticked at him and give his minor nobleship
>to someone else. Duty - or at least the appearance of adherence
>to duty - should be very important in the feudal power structure
>of the Imperial nobility. Dragging out a case for personal gain
>would be a dereliction of duty on at least two counts - duty to
>the respectability of the court, and duty to the Imperial subjects
>appearing before the court.
Historical precedent suggests that this thought would, at best, get lip
service in a feudal government. Nobles are human, if you'll pardon my
stating the obvious, and noblesse oblige only works so far as no-one
important's ox is getting gored.
If nothing else, dragging out in the courts would be used to buy time for
other pressure to be applied. "The plaintiff saw fit to drop the case
voluntarily, m'lud."
Cheers,
Paul
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:33:37 -0800
From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
Yes that is a pretty accurate description of current Naval berthing
arrangements.
there are a few differences between Sub surface and surface fleet.
No hot racking 8P
Also i did not hear him mention a chiefs quarters or (as i was told goat
locker). On a surface ship they were fairly nice. at least the one time i
saw them 8P
Also shower arrangements. Showering consisited of a small line with a nozzel
with a single button. You turned on the water just as you do at home however
no water would come out till you hit that button. Your bathing procedure was
simply.
Rinse down.
Soap up
Rinse off
Dry off
get dressed 8P
Also for some damn reason the Navy has this habit of giving the Engineers
berthing directly over the shafts. so your berthing gets noisy on high speed
runs. makes it a pain if your trying to catch a few hours shut eye before
your next watch 8P
hasta
- -----Original Message-----
From: Rob Davenport [mailto:rgd@ohio.voyager.net]
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 12:01 PM
To: Larsen E. Whipsnade; traveller@lists.ient.com
Cc: rgd@bigfoot.com
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
Wow, Bill. Thanks for the great description. I certainly count
myself lucky at not having to have slept in those tight bunks (being
6'1'" and 270#s it'd not have been pleasant sleeping!). And not boring
at all - very interesting!
Rob
On 16 Feb 2001, at 3:20, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> The lack of berthing areas in any Trav design systems has always
> puzzled me too. In the very few deckplans I've drawn, I've simply used
the
> tonnage alloted to those staterooms and used it to create berthing and rec
> areas aboard. Junior officers slept 2 to a stateroom (in bunks) and
seniors
> got a single.
> 42 men in my divsion slept in our berthing area. Our head, one deck
> above, had 2 commodes and 2 urinals (flushed with seawater), 2 showers and
4
> sinks. The racks were stacked 3 high, not too bad when considering that
> they were stacked higher in WW2. We also had a smaller area next to the
> head that held 9 men and was called "9 man" (not very original). Senior
> members of our division slept there.
> Engineering was always undermanned, usually somewhere around the
> mid-80% range, so there were berthing areas on the ship not filled to
> capacity. I don't remember more than 1 or 2 empty racks at any given
time.
> If we'd been at 100%, others in our division would have slept elsewhere.
> Undermanning meant that we normally stood "Six and sixes", 6 hours on
> watch and six hours off as long as the reactors were up. Add that to your
> maintenance and training duties and there wasn't much time for anythig
else.
> I finally got to stand "four and eights" during my last 18 months or so
> after qualifying for senior watch posisitons. The watches were shared
with
> the E7+ personnel. They slept in chief's berthing and only stacked two
> high.
> While underway, berthing was lit with red lights to allow the guys to
> sleep, except for the few hours it was being clean. Other than the 8 hour
> work day, half the division was tryinf to sleep at any given time.
> Laundry was stored in two huge lockers and taken to the ship's
laundry
> twice a week. You might try and imagine what the socks, skivvies,
t-shirts,
> pants, shirt, sheets, and towels for 42 men for 4 days smells like. My
> father, who once enjoyed a foxhole in Korea, described his impression of a
> visit to berthing rather succintly. All he said was "Feet and farts". He
> also said he'd prefer the foxhole.
> On the other side of the forward bulkhead was #2 engine room, both
> propeller shafts ran beneath the compartment, and an emergency diesel was
> just aft. The area was a "hazardous noise area" underway, requiring ear
> plugs. It was finally lined with sound proof materials on the bulkheads
> during my 3rd year there. Our commodes got stalls around them at the same
> time.
> With engineroom "next door", men could wake up and list the the
> equipment change overs and drill sets run in #2 ER during their sleep.
> Your rack was also your locker. The mattress, about 2" thick, sat
atop
> the locker's lid. The locker itself was 8-10" deep and divided into a few
> compartments and a drawer. The rack measured about 6' by 2' and a reading
> lamp hung above it. "Privacy" was provided by a set of curtains. You had
> another locker, similar to the ones in your high school gym, for
additional
> storage.
> My division was fortunate to have our office directly below our
> berthing area. It was tucked between the two shafts and let us watch TV,
> play games, write letters, etc. without bothering those asleep. We were
> lucky to have it.
> One side of our berthing area was formed by the ship's hull. During
> our many "visits" 12 miles off Kamchatka, ice would form on that bulkhead.
> Especially rough seas could toss men out of their racks despite our being
> below the waterline. During our visit to the Persian Gulf, the area was
> ventilated, but not air conditioned. Occasional bursts of sand would come
> through the vents. The heat made it more comfortable to sleep on the
> linoleuum deck rather than your rack.
> I hope this all ddin't bore you. But I figured I might as well
provide
> as many details as possible, so you can pick up some for your campaigns.
> Have fun.
>
>
> Larsen
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
>
>
- --
Rob
'Better to understand a little than to misunderstand a lot.'
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:36:47 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: boarding actions
In mail you write:
>
>> On a more "Traveller" note; how many high pressure, high temperature
>> fluids and gasses would there be in a starship engineroom? Would a ship
use
>> steam for anything? Compressed air? Hydraulics?
>> IMHO, the engine room would create and distribute electricity to
remote
>> compressors in order to operate landing gear, cargo hatches, etc. rather
>> than create and transmit the needed pneumatic or hydraulic pressure.
>
>There may be efficiency considerations here. It's a *lot* more
>efficient to have a couple of pneumatic or hydraulic unit (pairs for
>redundancy, you don't want the *only* unit going out) in engineering,
>and run high pressure piping around than to have a bunch of *little*
>units scattered around.
>
In the next generation of RL combat ship it is likely that central steam,
hydraulic and pneumatic systems will be a thing of the past. Damage control
considerations make using distributed systems the preferred design. Even the
main engines, which up until now have mostly been steam turbines using
reduction gears to turn the screws will be replaced by electric motors that
will be powered by generators. Ships of the near future will have much more
electric generation capacity than ships of the past. It possible that even
the guns will be electric. The crew will also have to decide whether to send
power to propulsion, sensors or weapons. Shades of Star Trek!
>On one hand the piping is bigger than power cables. On the other hand,
>you don't have to try and *fit* those compressors in near the hatches.
>
>It's a tradeoff. And I suspect that on the size of ship most PCs will
>be flying, "centralized" wins.
>
>On large, military ships, auxilary equipment rooms (possibly with their
>own small fusion plant) will likely carry the day.
I expect that larger ships will have many auxiliary equipment rooms. It's
hard for many non-engineers to understand that the systems on a big ship
aren't just bigger versions of the systems on little ships. Often a
subsystem that consists of a single dc powered pump on a speed boat requires
tanks and pumps, controllers, backup pumps, control consoles and a dozen
valves to do the same job on a cruiser.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:44:31 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: A secret history of jump drive
>From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
>Subject: Re: A Secret History of Jump Drive [long]
>They only need that huge amount of power for a very small amount of
>time, right at the moment the jump field is created. Presumably it's
>cheaper to shut down other ship systems and redirect the power to the
>drive for a few minutes, rather than to build in an extra-large power
>plant that will only be used for five minutes every two weeks.
Quick point ; if this is true, then battery-powered starships are going to be the way to go.
>
>Also, one of the suggestions I made was that jump dimming isn't only
>to reduce the total power load on the system: it's to reduce the
>possibility of fluctuations.
Good point.
<more good stuff snipped>
>> After all, the Vilani have spent millennia making
>the vJ-1 drive so simple that even primitive barbarians more used to
>banging rocks together can learn how to make them, and so become a
>cost-effective and fully acculturated member of the Grand Imperium of
>Stars.
Part of the thinking on the Vilani is that the monopolised either the production facilities or the
maintainenece of the production facilities of a number of essential goods, in order to forestall
rebellions.
Jump drives are usually on this list.
Note that the collapse of interstellar trade is even worse if the team from Makhudarin comes around to
repair your world's three working fusion plants every five years or so, regular as clockwork.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:51:32 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: boarding actions
In mail you write:
>
>> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>> "Which means you don't use the steam cycle if the gravity is off."
>>
>> Mr. Erickson,
>> I guess our next design decision would be to insure that the
gravitic
>> systems operate either off the energy drawn directly from the tokamak or
an
>> energy storage device. That would give the black gang the gravity they
>> needed to restart the steam cycle after an engineering casualty.
>
>A pity most ship designs won't let main "engine" thrust provide
>gravity, eh? <eg>
>
>> Trying to come up with some sort of percentage breakdown between the
>> power generated directly by the tokamak and that which is generated by
the
>> steam cycle could be fun too. After a main plant scram, how load would
>> engineering have to shed? Dump weapons? Sensors? Thrust? Perhaps a
>> mixture of all of them? Sort of similar to SFB's energy alotments each
>> turn?
>
>It's been a long time since I looked, but as I recall, you *could*
>modify a High Guard style ship data sheet for that kind of thing.
>
>Some of the design systems have this silly idea that the powerplant
>needs to be sized so you can run everything at once.
>
>--
>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
I'm surprised at you Leonard. I'm sure that you know that real life naval
combat vessels always have more generator capacity than they can use.
Usually they have al least 33 % excess capacity. This is to make up for
battle damage and down equipment. Generators are usually physically isolated
as well to minimize vulnerability to battle damage. Every steam ship I was
ever on also had backup diesel generators.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:04:20 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: FS Jet Bike
>From: William Lane <wlane@Asera.com>
>Subject: RE: FS Jet Bike (was: Re: Q-ship design)
>
>Ummm...
>
>Can i use that jet bike please 8)
>
>With some of the crazy things people do now i could just see a GJBRA form.
>
>Guys whos sole purpose is to tinker with them, trick them out, Drink beer,
>and boast about the fastest Jet Bike.
>
>I am sure they would try to find ways to make them as Ummm.. "safe" as they
>can get them 8P (please note Dr. Evil quotes around the word safe 8P)
While you could squeeze a little more acceleration out of it by, for example, omitting the parachute or
giving it less fuel, the main problem with improving performance is the airframe.
The racing model sacrifices some acceleration for aerofoils and such, in order to improve
maneuverability.
Oh, there are more fine products from FS, including the Barbie scale Particle Carbine, the FS Particle
Sabre and the Elephant-Mounted Particle Accelerator Weapon. Then we have the PuRSe (a 40mm
SEFOP warhead rocket designed to fit in milady's handbag. Stops most muggers and some APCs), a
Riot Control Shotgun and some other stuff.
The we have the J-class racing yacht, the successor to the Moonshine-class Fast Extraction Vessel.
BTW, if you decide to leave the jet bike in the garage, and run short of ammo for your artillery park,
you can fill 75mm shells with DFG refill packs and ball bearings and use them as high explosive
rounds.
>From: Kiri Aradia Morgan <tiamat@tsoft.com>
>Subject: RE: FS Jet Bike (was: Re: Q-ship design)
>
>On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, William Lane wrote:
>
>Oh, yeah, flying bosozoku, just what every planet needs!
>
>(bosozoku="teenage biker gang members")
If they fly FS Jet Bikes, I am sure this social movement will be, well, self-correcting.
>Well, everyone knows that everyone in the Shiratori Colonies is concerned
>with safety and welfare, especially our youth (mwahahaha.)
>
I am certain of this as well. <<Note to Maaaarketing : Dooo-woooe weee have a consul-wonsul therie-
werie ? Cousin Ditzie>>
Ian Whithcurch
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 08:07:26 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>From: hal@buffnet.net
>Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>
>Hello Folks,
> On the topic of corporations with differing departments...
>
> Wouldn't it be funny if a Corporation examined the profit/loss ratio of
>deep space stations of *all* their ships going through the station instead
>of just the station itself, found it to be a good idea, and started their
>own station? Only to discover that the bottom line improvements in their
>division hurts the bottom line of another division?
>
If you happen to be near a good library, see if you can read up on the history of a little company called
Dynamit-Nobel. Have a look at the trade war between their South African and South American
divisions, and the difficulties Head Office back in Sweden had in controlling it.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3686
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3687
Date: | 2/16/01 3:58:04 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Friday, February 16 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3687
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
This is scary
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Starship Bunking (was: Re: Civility and Politeness)
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
RE: Automatic success in MT
Re: Imperial legal structures
RE: Updated TML roster?
Re: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Re: Deep Space Jumps
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:10:36 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: This is scary
> > I think -- someone correct me if I'm wrong -- that the standard is that
> > > you had to be on the Traveller Mailing List before it was on mpgn.com,
I started on the old list, during the great PBEM game, dropped off, came
back just prior to the mpgn list starting.
Took part in the GDW-BETA list and the pocket empire list.
I've even been published in Traveller Chronicle Mag.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Opinions should be yours too! -- http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
"Tension, apprehension and dissension have begun." -- Alfred Bester
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 12:42:17 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
sneadj@mindspring.com wrote
> Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:
> > One key reason for the shortage of donor organs is that
> > you can't buy and sell them. Of course demand exceeds supply,
> > since we're not at a market equilibrium price.
>
> Would you really like to see that? That's about the only way I can
> see actual organlegging coming about. Poor people would be
> selling one of their kidneys on ebay and some of the urban legends
> about involuntary kidney removal would come true. IMHO some
> things should *never* be on the open market <shudder>.
<Rant> The current system condemns thousands to _death_ every
year for want of a good that is _thrown_away_ [buried] in the
hundreds of thousands. I am not a very compassionate person but
the shear _waste_ of those deaths, and the hubris of the government
in condemning so many to death by stopping them from getting
what they need to save their lives is very galling. <End Rant>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:53 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <B6B2714F.368B%gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Greetings dear hearts.
In the current UK system, a woman who is awarded an honour which, if she
were a man, would make her a 'knight' uses the following titles: -
Order of the Garter - 'Lady of the Garter' or LG. Note that members of
this Order are almost invariably titled, a Knight of the Garter (KG) who
actually calls himself 'Sir' is rare!
Order of the Bath - The term 'Dame' replaces 'Knight' in the name of the
grade. So you are a Dame Grand Cross, instead of a Knight Grand Cross
(both use GCB) or a Dame Commander (DCB) instead of a Knight Commander
(KCB).
The Order of the British Empire and Royal Victorian Order follow the same
pattern.
See http://www.medals.org.uk/uk/uk.htm for full details and pictures :-)
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:53 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
In-Reply-To: <b0dp8tsdfkoat3hsejsvcppja4koqvmlgi@4ax.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
Actually, some of these suppositions about titles are a bit off-track, at
least if you use the UK system as a model.
Take a Duke. We'll call him the Duke of Omnium. He's been awarded the
Order of the Sun & Stars - that would give him a knighthood, a fancy gong
and the postnominal letters KSS. He has the subsiduary titles Earl of
Crewe and Baron Strange. Oh, and his name is Freddie Blair.
If you wanted to announce him formally, he'd be "His Grace the Duke of
Omnium".
If you wrote him a letter you could address it to "The Duke of Omnium
KSS."
He gets lucky and finds a nice young lady, who becomes The Duchess of
Omnium. In the course of time she presents him with a son and heir, young
Joe. He will be known by one of Daddy's lesser titles, becoming the Earl
of Crewe. As time passes, a few more children arrive. They get called Lord
this and Lady that.... Lord Sam Blair and Lady Jane Blair, perhaps.
If Joe grows up and gets married in his turn, and has a son Pete, said
worthy becomes Baron Strange. When Freddie the Duke dies, Joe becomes Duke
of Omnium and Pete becomes Earl of Crewe...
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:53 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Starship Bunking (was: Re: Civility and Politeness)
In-Reply-To: <20010216172105.B14633@freeman.little-possums.net>
Greetings dear hearts.
These tales of nautical berthing (fascinating!) make me VERY glad I was a
grunt!
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
Former Sergeant, 22nd (Cheshire) Regiment of Foot.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:53 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
In-Reply-To: <3a8f16f8.10717556@post.demon.co.uk>
Greetings dear hearts.
Working in a college in England, everybody is on first name terms... you
even find the 16-year-old 'oiks' addressing the Principal as 'David'.
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:06:44 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
[please don't call me Mister Daniels. I haven't seen Mister Daniels
in 20 years :-)]
> I must agree again. But restraint of trade does not seem to trigger
> Imperial involvement.
> In the RSB,
I know nothing of this TNE thing of which you speak.
<Sgt. Schultz> I know nothing! I know nothing! </Sgt. Schultz>
Did he pay his taxes?
> Either the Imperium has "anti-inflationay"
> clauses in it's body of laws or is prevented from "stretching" things by
> custom.
If I may suggest alternative interpretations?
The closest significant noble didn't care/was lazy/was incompetent/etc.
More significant but more remote noble only cared that MegaCorp X's
trade made it between A & B.
If MegaCorp X moved into the system, MegaCorpy Y would retailiate
by doing XYZ.
The planetary ruler is in cahoots with MegaCorp Z, but Z is too far away
to exert any significant power in the region. It's only current goal is to
keep X and Y off the planet.
> A feudal government with communication lags, the Imperium might be more
> "legally tolerant" than the modern US.
The Imperium is also a government of individuals and to state it briefly -
people
suck. "Hell is other people" - as someone said. They are lazy, selfish, etc.
The Imperium's effectiveness at anything is determined by the quality of the
closest noble.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:07:30 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Imagine what would have happened to Bill of Rights if, foex, there had
> been a Constitutional Convention in 1953. Or 1933. Or, for that matter,
> 1993.
How about 1853? Heehee.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:07:19 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
>Take a Duke. We'll call him the Duke of Omnium. He's been awarded the
>Order of the Sun & Stars - that would give him a knighthood, a fancy gong
>and the postnominal letters KSS. He has the subsiduary titles Earl of Crewe
>and Baron Strange. Oh, and his name is Freddie Blair.
>
>If you wanted to announce him formally, he'd be "His Grace the Duke of
>Omnium".
>
>If you wrote him a letter you could address it to "The Duke of Omnium
>KSS."
And one way of referring to him informally would be as "Omnium" -- the place
becomes the person. A modern example is "The White House", as in "The White
House announced today that...." Cool, a talking house! What TL is that?
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:29:14 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
>"Hell is other people" - as someone said.
Jean-Paul Sartre. Or at least that's how he would have said it if he weren't
a cheese-eating surrend...er, I mean, "French".
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:59:06 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
Rob,
Thanks for response. I'm in the habit of doodling on legal pads while
doing this sort of reading, so without G:T physically in front of me I think
I can answer some of you points.
"It was my opinion from my reading that if a ship encountered the 100D
limit of the target star, they'd precipitate out of jump, but it was
not a requirement. The jump was calculated before engaging and the
final destination point was fixed the moment the jump bubble formed.
All you had to do then was wait out the penalizing week."
Exactly. However, if your jump bubble "brushes' against the 100D limit
of any 1km object, you're precipitated out of jump at that point. It
doesn't explicitly say anywhere, but any jump, with an accidental exit or
no, still takes 168 hours (the jump week). Time stays constant.
This next stuff is probably going to get me flamed by all concerned,
but here it goes anyways.
G:T: Far Trader has a little diagram explaining the idea of jump
shadows, it's on page 59. It shows a jump line extending from the point in
the departure system where the jump started to the point in the destination
system where the jump ends. The diagram is meant to show how this "jump
line" must avoid the 100D limit of any object. The vessel in diagram
arrives in the system far beyond the world's 100D limit because it had to
avoid the star's 100D.
I'm going to assume a that this "jump line' can be visualized as a very
long wire stretched from the jump entry point to the jump exit point without
any deflection. The length and X, Y, Z components of this "line" is part of
the navigation requirements for jump. Please note it is a line, not a
vector. It has X, Y, and Z co-ordinates and a certain length. There is no
speed component.
Before anyone starts to froth, this "line" is "virtual" one and not
"real". The "jump line" is only used by navigators to insure that a ship's
"jump field" will not intersect with the 100D limits of any bodies.
Now think of the ship as a bead moving along this very long wire. If
that bead, representing the jump field, intersects with any 100D limit along
it's entire path, due to a navigation error, then the ship is precipitated
out of jump at that point in space.
Here's the kicker now. It's precipitated out at that point in space,
but not in time. Whether the 100D limit was contacted only 50km from the
ship's starting point or .99999 parsecs from the start, the ship is still in
jump space for a week. Understand?
The ship exists at ALL points along the jump line simultaneously as
soon as the jump field is formed. The ship does not "move" along the jump
line at any speed. It exists at all points along that line for the entire
duration of the jump. Our jump line will now also have a thickness the size
of our ship's jump field.
Parts of the navigation jump problem now include; choosing a jump line
end point with Mr. Miller's 3000km/parsec error rate in mind and plotting a
jump line that the 100D limits of no moving bodies over 1km will intersect
for a 168 hr period.
The last part is the trickiest one to visualize. Imagine the system
we're to vist as a binary star. The companion star orbits within 100D of
the cental one, but it's 100D limit "bulges" out from the sphere of the
central star's 100D limit as the companion orbits.
Take half of a pin-pong ball, place it flat side down on a softball's
equator and move it around the softball in a circle. The softball is the
central star's 100D limit, the half ping-pong ball shell represents the
companion's 100D limit. Do you see it now?
With jump shadows, a "virtual" jump line that skirts the softball
(central star 100D limit sphere) might not clear the ping-pong ball shell
(companion's 100D limit sphere) becasue the companion has 168 hours to get
in the way. If our navigator doens't take into account the orbital position
of the companion over the next 168 hours as part of his plot, we would
arrive in the system, but not where we wanted to, and always 168 hours
later.
"This goes back to my understanding that there wasn't a corresponding
transit in jumpspace. When in jump, are the manuever drives running? Do
they need to be? Is the ship *moving* relative to some other point in
jumpspace? I'd ask "Can it change directions?"
No to all, because the ship exists at all points along the jump line,
there is no movement. That is why I prefer jump line to jump vector.
Vector implies speed and thus movement along the line.
"(?? Hadn't heard of Nemesis. Will have to look it up.)"
The presence of Nemesis was conjectured about the same time that
sciencists realized an asteroid impact in all likelyhood caused the
dinosaurs' extinction. Bcause there have been other mass exticntions in
Earth's past, some astronomers conjectured that a very distant solar
companion might disturb the Oort cloud on regular, but widely seperated,
instances and cause an increase in the number of comets for a period of
time. They even tried to come up with an orbital profiel of the thing. I
believe Asimov cribbed the idea for one of his last books.
That's all from me and let the screaming begin.
Larsen
P.S. Do you have a English/Latin translation proggie to create all those
wonderfully goofy phrases, or are you digging them up out of a primer?
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:08:38 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Leonard Erickson wrote:
[Tim wrote:]
> > Nope. As per my post yesterday, unrefined fuel in the form of liquid
> > (or solid) water, methane or ammonia is twice as dense in hydrogen as
> > refined LH2.
> But it makes a big difference if you figure by volume or by mass.
It certainly does. By jump drive, you have to figure by volume. By
sublight drive, you figure by mass. By volume, unrefined fuel in the
form of these chemical compounds is about twice as dense in hydrogen.
By mass, LH2 is about 4-9 times better.
> Given the above figures, I get roughly 20 comets per cubic light
> week.
According to GURPS, the chances are very good of finding one with the
standard AESA sensors included in the bridge module. Of course, it
will take you at least a few days and possibly over a week to do so,
and then something like a month or two to reach it on thrusters.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:11:55 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Rob Davenport wrote:
> Hmm - does that mean that if a ship has [mis]jumped into an empty
> hex and is left without fuel for the jump drive, they have a not
> insignificant chance of finding and reaching a source of unrefined
> fuel? (Assuming they have a processing plant.)
Within a couple of months, yes. Possibly much sooner, if interstellar
comets are more numerous than the lower estimate (there is a factor of
10000 between the upper and lower estimates).
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:13:34 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
"[please don't call me Mister Daniels. I haven't seen Mister Daniels in 20
years :-)]"
Bloo,
Thank you very much. Larsen, Bill, or "Stay back I have a gun" do very
well for me.
"<Sgt. Schultz> I know nothing! I know nothing! </Sgt. Schultz>"
Perhaps for three coconut crispy bars.....?
"If I may suggest alternative interpretations?"
I prefer your alternative. It implies skullduggery rather than simple
apathy. I prefer my villians to be active and not sluggish.
"Hell is other people" - as someone said..."
So very true. A Mencken quote fits here. "I like people, it's
humanity I can't stand."
Larsen
P.S. I've always thought that the "doings" at Stalag 13 would make for an
excellent light operaretta.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:18:06 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
>Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
> > Imagine what would have happened to Bill of Rights if, foex, there had
> > been a Constitutional Convention in 1953. Or 1933. Or, for that matter,
> > 1993.
>
>How about 1853? Heehee.
>
>bloo
>
Indeed. My home state still had a property requirement in order to vote
until the 1840's. It took a little bit of unpleasentness called the "Dorr
War" to change things.
Oh, it was a property requirement for native white males only. Like the
rest of the nation, no one else need apply.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:25:19 -0500
From: trentfs@ix.netcom.com
Subject: RE: Automatic success in MT
Peter Trevor wrote:
>> Trent wrote:
>> For simple tasks, this is a DM of +2 or higher, for routine
>> tasks the DM is +6 or higher; I'm tempted to declare by fiat
>> the DMs to be +3 and +7, both for the aesthetics of matching
>> the difficulty profile, and also because I'm not crazy about
>> the idea of a stat 5, skill-1 character being 100% automatic
>> with ANY task, no matter how easy.
>This looks good (at least on paper) ... I'll have to give it a
try.
If you do, I'd like to know how it works out.
>One solution to your "stat 5, skill-1" problem would be to only
>consider the skill level bonus when deciding if qualified for the
>auto success option. Thus, while the "stat 5, skill-1" character
>may have the same base odds of success as a "stat 1, skill-5"
>character he will (from not qualifying for auto success) have a
>greater risk of fumbles.
Interesting idea, but I'm not sure how practical it is. Sure, requiring a character to have at least skill-2 to automatically succeed at simple tasks is fine, but requiring skill-6 to auto. succeed at routine tasks is pretty harsh; at least in MT where skill-4 is by definition an expert (as it stands now, stat A, skill-4 can succeed automatically at routine tasks, which feels about right to me).
Actually, thinking more about it, I'm not that worried about allowing such a mediocre character auto-success with simple tasks -- after all, they ARE simple; plus it would match the rule in T4.x where (IIRC) only Unskilled characters are required to actually roll simple (or Easy, or whatever they call it) tasks.
Trent
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:24:24 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal structures
>From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
>"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
>> Considering that the Imperium "doesn't rule worlds,
>>but rules the space between them",
>
>That phrase is nice propaganda. Have you read the Imperial
>Constitution in Milieu 0? There's a supremacy clause. Where member
>world law conflicts with any Imperial law, Imperial law wins. In the
>OTU, it doesn't appear to be often exercized, but the foundation is
there.
I handle it this way: The Imperium started out as the Sylean
Confederation. Sylean customs, laws, and culture permeated the
confederation. Those worlds became the first members of the Third
Imperium. When the Imperium was small and growing, Cleon basically
imposed the Sylean way of doing business (and many other things) on
incoming members of the Imperium. The Imperium grew very rapidly and
found itself unable to impose Sylean norms consistently on new members.
Many worlds, after all, traced their history and culture back to the Ziru
Sirka and did things their own way. This tension between "Syleafication"
and retention of pre-Imperial ways was one of the causes of the Civil War.
After the Civil War, Arbellatra's reforms included stopping
"Syleafication" and focussing the Third Imperium on keeping the trade
lanes open. Since then, the Third Imperium has been much more an empire
that rules the space between the stars than one that imposes norms -- or
otherwise impinges -- on its members' internal conditions.
Because the Third Imperium is not a constitutional, legally-oriented
entity, it reserves the right through custom to interfere in the internal
matters of member states, but it customarily does not do so because, at
the very least, there is no need to interfere with loyal member states.
(There are of course many affirmative reasons not to do so -- member
states do not expect internal interference based on the written membership
treaty and on unwritten customs, and such interference would accordingly
disrupt the peace and stability of the realm, for an important example.)
- --Glenn
(to paraphrase Steve Daniels' sig: I'm a lawyer, too, but I'm not your
lawyer, either.)
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 17:35:19 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: RE: Updated TML roster?
On 02/16/01 at 10:27 AM, "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com> said:
>On 02/15/01 at 04:09 PM, Bruce Johnson
><johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu> said:
>>Mark F. Cook wrote:
>>> Some time back, a TML member made a roster of all the TML members
>>> available to the rest of us. The list looked like this:
>>>
>>> NAME CITY STATE COUNTRY
>>> Dan Roseberry Hot Springs AK US
>>> William F. "Wil" Hostman Anchorage AS US
>>> ...
>>>
>>> I was just going through my copy and noticed that it was somewhat
>>> out of date. For example, Tod Glenn isn't in the list.
BTW, Tod Glenn *is* in the list! I just checked. <g>
>>> Is the Keeper of this list still present, and is a more current
>>> copy of the list available? If so, I'd really list to get it.
>>That would be Eris, at his web site:
>>http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr/#roster
>ERIS: <<<Yep, that would be me, and the list is only as current as
>the contributors allow it to be. I don't include anyone unless
>they ask to be included, and don't include email or url unless
>specifically told to do so.
>If anyone would like to be included on the list, or have their
>entry updated, drop me a line with the following information:
>Name, City, State/Province/Region, Nation, and only if you want it
>included, email and/or url
>I plan to update the lists on my website this weekend.>>>>
>S'right.You may have noticed I'm listed on the roster, and I've
>only been a list member 6 months.
Dean, you made the request, and I added you. Some long time members
of the TML haven't asked, and it would be impolite (reference the
long-winded civility thread if you want to discuss civility on this
list <g>) to add them if they don't ask.
Eris,
still The Heretic
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:36:31 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Most cometary, or comet-like, bodies are over 1km and could cause a
> ship to "fall" out of jump space in the unlikely occurrance that it's jump
> vector intersects that body's 100D limit. Uncharted or unknown bodies could
> be the cause for a percentage of all misjumps.
If the current estimates of the number of bodies in the Oort clouds
are remotely realistic, the chance of being precipitated out of jump
by one is about 1 in 100000. So, a rather small percentage of
misjumps there.
The chance of being precipitated out of jump by an interstellar comet
is no more than 1 in a billion and could be as low as 1 in ten
trillion. Negligible.
Kuiper belt objects are more annoying to calculate, since they have a
more distinct orbital plane, but not distinct enough to say that few
are present outside the plane.
> Now think about companion stars, even extremely distant ones like the
> postulated Nemesis orbitting Sol. Might the position of these stars, and
> their own collection of planets, occasionally make travelling between two
> systems much more difficult, if not impossible?
The primary star's own jump masking is more of a pain. But yes. The
chance of a distant binary happening to line up "just wrong" between
two nearby star systems is pretty small, but not completely
negligible. The effect would be like normal jump masking -- a day or
two extra in-system travel.
> Orbits mean that these periods of interference would be regular
> and predictable.
Predictable yes, but not really regular. Distant binaries have very
long orbital periods, and the masked region would only be a couple of
AU. Stellar proper motion would probably shift the stars out of
alignment over timescales comparable to the orbital period.
Furthermore, the orbits of planets at both ends would make the timing
of masked periods rather erratic. They would be "regular" only in the
sense that total eclipses are regular.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 15:51:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
>From: "Trevor, Peter" <Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com>
>The 3I of year 0 seems quite different to the 3I of year 1100 ...
Of course it is -- 1100 years is a _long_ time. Think of any historical
empires or nations over that time span. They have all undergone
tremendous changes. Why would the Imperium be any different?
- --Glenn
(The examples that jumped to my mind were England and China -- they are
still recognizably the same countries now that they were 1100 years ago,
but they are also completely different than they were then.)
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Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:52:49 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Rob Davenport wrote:
> If there are as many 1km+ bodies in space as seems to be implied, then
> the chance for misjump or 'prematurely exited jumps' seems quite high.
Nah. Space is *big*. *Really* big. There could be 1000000000000
comets in an "empty" hex and you'd be very unlikely to hit one of
their 100D limits in a million years of continuous jumping through it.
> Exactly - but how rare, I wonder. If it's a common enough problem,
> wouldn't the 3I have tried to do something about it? Send the scout
> ships to map all the bodies in all the empty hexes too, thus creating
> more accurate maps with which to avoid the dirtballs and brown dwarfs,
> perhaps.
If it is a noticeably common problem, then there are far too many
bodies to map. All the ships of the Third Imperium combined may have
made a total of a few billion jumps over its history. If more than
one of them hit an interstellar comet, then there must be hundreds of
billions such comets per cubic parsec. That's a very big mapping
expedition.
Then again, I suppose they only have to chart the ones within a
thousand AU or so of the jump lanes, and updating their maps every few
decades. That cuts it down to only ten million or so per parsec of
jump route.
Probably way too much effort for the miniscule (and non-fatal) risk.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3687
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3688
Date: | 2/16/01 7:48:58 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Friday, February 16 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3688
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Legal Qs
Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Re: Civility and Politeness
RE: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Missiles & such
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: A Bertram Chandler
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: A. Bertram Chandler
Re: Landmine clearing...
Re: Deep Space Refulling
Re: Landmine clearing...
Re: Civility and Politeness.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:08:21 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:
> sneadj@mindspring.com wrote
>
> > Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net> wrote:
> > > One key reason for the shortage of donor organs is that
> > > you can't buy and sell them. Of course demand exceeds supply,
> > > since we're not at a market equilibrium price.
> >
> > Would you really like to see that? That's about the only way I can
> > see actual organlegging coming about. Poor people would be selling
> > one of their kidneys on ebay and some of the urban legends about
> > involuntary kidney removal would come true. IMHO some things should
> > *never* be on the open market <shudder>.
>
> <Rant> The current system condemns thousands to _death_ every
> year for want of a good that is _thrown_away_ [buried] in the
> hundreds of thousands. I am not a very compassionate person but
> the shear _waste_ of those deaths, and the hubris of the government in
> condemning so many to death by stopping them from getting what they
> need to save their lives is very galling. <End Rant>
Fair enough, but I *don't* see the open market as any sort of good
answer. One easy solution would be to pass a law saying that
everyone who does *not* sign a piece of paper saying they have
religious or other personal reasons for donating organs must do so
after they die. Since most folks don't terribly care (and likely don't
care nearly enough to take the time to fill out such a form) the
supply goes *way* up, w/o the risks and potential horrors of selling
organs.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:32:08 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> The ship exists at ALL points along the jump line simultaneously as
> soon as the jump field is formed.
THat's exactly like my Traveller universe.
IMTU, the ships immediately enters jumpspace and makes the transit,
from a "normal space" point of view. This is when 100D limits are
checked. Then the ship takes a week to re-enter normal space.
From the crew's point of view, they spend half a week entering jump,
and half a week leaving. Again, the transit itself is instantaneous.
> It exists at all points along that line for the entire duration of
> the jump.
IMTU the jump duration itself is of time zero. The remaining week is
spent in re-entering normal space at the destination after the jump.
If the instantaneous jump line hits a 100D limit, the ship will emerge
at that point instead of its desired exit. The exit point during the
week of exit is stationary with respect to the jumpspace reference
frame, which is locked to the mean rotation of the galaxy.
This means that hitting the 100D limit of a fast-moving object (like a
planet) does not in general leave you at the edge of its 100D sphere
when you emerge from jumpspace.
Three question for your TU. If multiple bodies intersect the jump
line during the week, which takes effect -- the closest one (in
space), or the one that intersects the jump line first (in time)? Do
you emerge at the edge of the object's 100D limit? If so, where do
you end up if the 100D sphere no longer intersects the jump line after
a week?
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:35:12 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> One easy solution would be to pass a law saying that everyone who
> does *not* sign a piece of paper saying they have religious or other
> personal reasons for donating organs must do so after they die.
Tasmanian driver's licences have a section in which you indicate
whether or not you are willing to donate organs. If you don't fill
that section in, they assume you are willing to donate.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:48:35 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: Legal Qs
> I won't go into detail to respond to your characterization of the
suitability
> of federal commercial clause jurisdication to redress damages caused
> from a sexual harassment issue except to say this:
> - financial matters effecting interstate commerce are appropriate
> for that type of jurisdiction, it still has to meet the $75,000 damages
> threshold;
Not even, that's a federal question with no lower limit.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:53:52 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
>From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Mr. Little,
Thank you for responding to my jump space post.
I'd only been acquainted with the idea of jump shadows and their
connotations for 36 hours or so now. I've only been musing about the idea
since then.
Although the 100D precipitation idea seems to have been around for as
long as the game has, I had somehow lost sight of it. I'd been blithely
assuming that while a ship could only enter jump space outside of 100D, it's
virtual jump line could "burrow" through all sorts of diameter limits, even
the objects themselves, and then only reappear outside of the 100D limit
again. That is to say, that the 100D limit effected entry and exit but not
transit.
Silly, wasn't it?
I much prefer your instantaneous 100D limit check at the point of
intiating the jump. It does away with the 100D limit check problems you
pointed out in your post. The idea of ~84 hours "entering" jump space, a
"no time" transit, and then a ~84 hours "exiting" is a very good one that I
will shamelessly filch.
Thanks again for you kind post. Your solution to the problem of limit
checks along the virtual jumop line over the entire 168 hours period is a
both beautiful and simple. The hallmark of a well thought out idea. Your
sharing it with me saved me a few days, or weeks, of skull sweat.
Larsen
P.S. Considering my usual method of musing over these subjects, your
solution certainly saved a few drams of single malt and a Cohiba or two
also.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:58:27 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Apparently three.
There won't be any punitive damages in contract disputes; that discourages
trade. Or my favorite, give the Imperium any punitive damage awards.
There won't be any jury, just a bunch of nobles. They could make decisions
pretty quickly, only limited by the speed of Xboat travel. I don't think
the process would take that long. Just curtail the right to appeal and you
have a pretty efficient court.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 01:11:54 GMT
From: TML@stempest.demon.co.uk (Stephen Tempest)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
John Groth <wombat@premier.net> writes:
>Uhhh, perhaps you shouldn't have posted that.
>
>As soon as I read that post, Netscape "performed an illegal operation"
>and shut down.
Does that count as a computer kill, then?
:-)
Stephen
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:46:31
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
At 11:35 AM 2/17/2001 +1100, you wrote:
>Tasmanian driver's licences have a section in which you indicate
>whether or not you are willing to donate organs. If you don't fill
>that section in, they assume you are willing to donate.
Funny, I have a note that tells them *not* to harvest my organs under any
circumstance. To much damage from HD and chemo. My parts are going to
Stanford University Medical School for use by students.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:24:09 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> It exists at all points along that line for the entire duration of
> the jump.
Ouch, I just spotted a nasty military consequence of this. If a ship
jumps out to evade a superior force, all the enemy has to do is reach
the jump point with a very large hull (call it an interdictor)within a
week. The interdictor need not be incredibly expensive -- a hollowed
asteroid with maneuver drives would do.
At the end of the week, the smaller ship reappears at its jump point
due to hitting the 100D limit of the interdictor. I.e. it can't
escape.
By my calculations, an interdictor capable of reaching Saturn from
Earth within a week (including deceleration) would cost about 40 GCr.
If the ship only needs to travel 20 million km (150D for Jupiter) it
can be *much* cheaper, around 600 MCr.
The ability to trap enemy forces costing much more would make it very
valuable, and in peacetime could be used to capture pir^H^H^Hethically
challenged merchants.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 01:27:21 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
"Tasmanian driver's licences have a section in which you indicate
whether or not you are willing to donate organs. If you don't fill that
section in, they assume you are willing to donate."
"Funny, I have a note that tells them *not* to harvest my organs under
any circumstance. To much damage from HD and chemo. My parts are going to
Stanford University Medical School for use by students."
Douglas E. Berry
I'm in such bad shape, I'll have to donate my body to science fiction.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:35:46 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> That is to say, that the 100D limit effected entry and exit but not
> transit.
> Silly, wasn't it?
Not at all: If jumpspace really were a different space only connected
to normal space by jump engines, then intervening bodies should have
no effect at all. That's how I used to play it.
> I much prefer your instantaneous 100D limit check at the point of
> intiating the jump. It does away with the 100D limit check problems you
> pointed out in your post. The idea of ~84 hours "entering" jump space, a
> "no time" transit, and then a ~84 hours "exiting" is a very good one that I
> will shamelessly filch.
I made that one up mainly because I liked the idea of time behaving
weirdly in the interface between jump space an normal space.
> P.S. Considering my usual method of musing over these subjects, your
> solution certainly saved a few drams of single malt and a Cohiba or
> two also.
Hmm -- maybe you'd better muse over it some more, just in case I
missed something important :)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 01:40:00 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
>From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
"Ouch, I just spotted a nasty military consequence of this. If a ship
jumps out to evade a superior force, all the enemy has to do is reach the
jump point with a very large hull (call it an interdictor)within a week.
The interdictor need not be incredibly expensive -- a hollowed asteroid with
maneuver drives would do."
Mr. Little,
Hmm, perhaps the 100D limit check is performed at the same instant in
time along the entire "virtual" jump line that the jump field is created.
No, that won't do at all. A poorly chosen exit point could be outside
a 100D limit at a jump's 0 hour and inside it at a jump's 168 hour.
The 100D limit has to be checked against at the exit point for the
entire 168 hour period, otherwise a ship could find itself way too close to
a body upon exit.
How about this; "no-time" jump entry and transit along the jump line
with a 168 hour exit? No...
Time to break out the single malt, legal pad, and humidor.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:48:16 -0500
From: "Walt Smith" <firelock_ny@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness
Mexal (Megan Robertson) wrote:
>Subject: >Working in a college in England, everybody is on first
>name terms... you even find the 16-year-old 'oiks' addressing the
>Principal as 'David'.
I went to the business offices of Walt Disney World, Florida
some years ago to fill out a job application. As I walked past
some gilded statues of the Disney Pantheon, a crowd of very
serious-faced businessmen in pinstripe suits strode by, grim
with determination, briefcases in hand...and each wore a
colorful nametag, marked with things like "Hi, I'm Mark"...
"Hi, I'm David"..."Hi, I'm Steve"...
It struck me as wonderfully surreal.
Walt Smith
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:50:27 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Deep Space Jumps
> Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 15:16:36 -0000
>> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>>
>> >From: "DaveShayne" <daveshayne@email.msn.com>
>
>Bill,
>
>
>> I was thinking more along the lines of "delivered" chunks rather
than
>> "found" chunks. That way, with a refinery at the depot, any sufficiently
>> large merchant could act as our re-supply vessel. Not having to build a
>> tanker would save credits.
>
>Whew. Delivering chunks of ice. I think you'll find that it is in fact less
>expensive to ship in refined fuel than to jump in big chunks of rocks.
>
>As to sending them at sublight. Well that would be a long term project.
>Bear in mind that without a bussard ram type of drive (which unfortunately
>appears to not be do-able realistically) getting any cargo up to a
>significant
>fraction of the speed of light is rather dificult. But lets say you get
your
>comet head up to .1c average velocity it'll take 32+ years to get your
>fuel source to the halfway point you want. And it will still be cruising at
>.1c when it gets there meaning that it will drift out of range in a fairly
>short time. Parking the ice will require turnaround and deceleration
>which will add time as well as requiring extra fuel.
>
>Which brings up another point; how are you getting fuel to this icicle?
>If you use the comet itself it's probably going to exaust itself well
before
>reaching it's destination. If you jump fuel to the comet you might as well
>just jump the fuel to the destination anyway.
>
>
>David Shayne
Using GT fusion power plants (which are very efficient) and Reactionless
Thrusters I don't see this as a problem. It certainly would be a long-term
project, but in a society which is starting to experiment with terraforming,
and has thousand-year-old companies I don't see a project like this being a
problem. Use an automated control system (robot ships are allowed for
non-starship purposes even in the OTU.) Aim a series of comets from the oort
cloud to your refuel point. About the time the first iceburg should get to
the refueling point use a tender to transport a refining station to meet it.
Remove the engines and fusion plant for refurbishment and reuse.
I agree it would be a costly operation, but there are places it might be
especially worthwhile. For example to establish an Xboat route across a rift
or allow access to a cluster of worlds that would otherwise be isolated.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 18:11:13 -0800
From: "Tsykoduk" <Tsykoduk@bigfoot.com>
Subject: RE: Missiles & such
IIRC that they were/are called Dial a Nukes - have a dial (in Ktons) and a
timer (in Min). Set both to the right setting, and run like the dickens...
;)
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Leonard Erickson
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 1:41 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: Missiles & such
In mail you write:
>>>> Personally, I'm fond of the Genie. A missile that *had* to have been
>>>> designed by the ancestors of Familie Spofulam.
>
> I think the FS forebears had something to do with a weapon system called
the
> Davy Crockett also.
True!
While I know that even the US military wasn't stupid enough to develop
the legendary "nuclear hand grenade" I have some vague memories of what
might be best described as a "nuclear satchel charge".
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 02:21:00 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
on 16/2/01 9:25 am, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>> Err... have you seen this week's JTAS? It's coming, and there's a sneak
>> preview. Interestingly, there's a mention of primogeniture, but it fails to
>> mention ultimogeniture, which would be likely found as an 'unusual
>> circumstance', as well as old-fashioned patrilinear primogeniture, which is.
>> Also, there's no note as to whether the Imperium uses agnatic or uterine
>> lineage. But it is a sneak peek.
>
> Translation please? I recognized about three of the "technical terms" listed.
Fair enough, I assume this is the jargon you want defined:
primogeniture: jural (of or relating to law) right of inheritance belonging
to the first-born (son)
ultimogeniture: jural (of or relating to law) right of inheritance belonging
to the last-born (son)
patrilinear: related to descent on the male side to another male
agnatic: related through male descent (the links are on the father's side,
not a reference to the sex of the subject)
uterine: related through female descent (the links are on the mother's side,
not a reference to the sex of the subject)
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 02:21:00 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A Bertram Chandler
on 16/2/01 11:38 am, Trevor, Peter at Peter.Trevor@rb.cwplc.com wrote:
> I'm a fan of A Bertam Chandler, too. And I'm in the UK. I have
> several of his books and the best source I've found todate has
> been Forbidden Planet (just off Oxford Street in London) ... they
> used to have a sizable selection of his books. I haven't checked
> in a few months so I can't say if this is still true.
Thanks. I wonder if I'll get a chance... I've decided that since trying to
get a job in the US while based in the UK is proving difficult, I'm going to
just emigrate without first having employment. So I'm off at the end of the
month to Pennsylvania. Unfortunately, I have to work this weekend too. So
I'll probably be off the list for a short while before I re-appear on some
US address. And I won't have my Traveller books to hand for a couple of
months. :(
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 02:21:00 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
on 16/2/01 9:17 am, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>> several different publishers. He wrote a large number of books, of which
>> I've only got a dozen or so. One day I'll track down an Aussie second hand
>> SF bookstore and order a heap of them.
>
> Check US stores such as www.powells.com. A US publisher reprinted the
> whole series a few years before Chandler's death.
I'll do that, thanks.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 02:21:01 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: A. Bertram Chandler
on 16/2/01 6:27 pm, Joseph Rocchi/Toronto/IBM at josephr@ca.ibm.com wrote:
> I've read a fair number myself - they were released in the U.S. and Canada
> by Daw books.
> Interestly enough, the people behind Paranoia Press seemed to be Chandler
> fans too, putting out (in Scouts and Assassins) plans and specs for the 150
> ton "Serpent Class Extended Scout" which posessed a "mannschen-type"
> J-Drive.
I had noticed that originally, but I'd long forgotten it.
> Joseph Paul Rocchi
> IBM Global Services
Decent organisation. As a contractor I knew it well. :) Never got to Canada,
but if you happen upon a Gareth Jeremiah (I know, big, big place), say hello
from me.
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 02:21:01 +0000
From: Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Landmine clearing...
on 16/2/01 3:29 pm, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:
>>> It really all depends. My wife (an explosives expert) related the story of
>>> a huge balst in an Israeli town. Some distance away, a boby builder working
>>> out on his roof was killed by reflected pressure wave. weird.
>>
>> Did he die when he hit the ground, or did the wave itself kill him?
>
> He was found dead on the roof. For a while the cause of death eluded the
> police.
It was the shockwave presumably rather than an impact against something or
suffocation (he'd be too far away for the vacuum, and it would be too
short-lived, I suspect).
Gordon.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:13:54 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
>
> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 07:11:57 -0000
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
>
> From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
>
> "The smallest planetoid you can safely target with a Jump 1 drive is
> about 50km in diameter."
>
> Mr. Jones-Low,
> I'm afraid I still don't quite understand the need for a vessel to
> "target" a body with it's jump drive. Are you suggesting that the body's
> mass is needed in some way to "precipatate" the vessel out of jump space?
>
This is correct. IMTU, you need the mass (or more correctly the
distortions in jump space caused by the mass) to precipitate the vessel
out of jump space. This is to make the non-catastrophic mis-jumps more
of a temporary challenge and introduce further plot hooks rather than a
campaign ending disaster.
My players are the "Push the button and it goes" engineering school.
They much prefer the challenge of outthinking the NPCs rather than
engineering their way out of a situation. But because I'm so much of a
gear head, I write the rules of the universe to make sure the players
are not stuck in some place where they have to out-engineering the GM
(which they hate).
I can conjure up a number of objections to allowing the jump drive to
exit in "empty" space far from any other object, but most come down to
the enjoyment of the game by my players.
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:13:44 -0500
From: "Thom Harris" <thomharr@mediaone.net>
Subject: Re: Landmine clearing...
I once had a mortar land about 10 meters in front of me. I didn't get hit by
any shrapnel but I was knocked unconscious and was bleeding from nose ears
and eyes. The first guy to get to me thought I had taken a shrapnel/round
through the head.....
Thom Harris - GOFIR - <Gnarly Old Fart In Residence>
Life not only begins at forty, it begins to show.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gordon Hundley" <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2001 9:21 PM
Subject: Re: Landmine clearing...
> on 16/2/01 3:29 pm, Tod Glenn at webmaster@travellercentral.com wrote:
>
> >>> It really all depends. My wife (an explosives expert) related the
story of
> >>> a huge balst in an Israeli town. Some distance away, a boby builder
working
> >>> out on his roof was killed by reflected pressure wave. weird.
> >>
> >> Did he die when he hit the ground, or did the wave itself kill him?
> >
> > He was found dead on the roof. For a while the cause of death eluded
the
> > police.
>
> It was the shockwave presumably rather than an impact against something or
> suffocation (he'd be too far away for the vacuum, and it would be too
> short-lived, I suspect).
>
> Gordon.
>
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:11:23 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
At 03:20 AM 2/16/01 +0000, Larsen E Whipsnade wrote:
>From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
>
> "So you had that many in that small an area? How many bunks? How
>many slept at a time? After reading Hornblower,et al., I wonder about the
>crew space requirements in Trav. Are there options in (B2/HG2/FFS1/FFS2)
>for multi-person arrangements such as that, or does everyone get a
>stateroom (or double up in one)?"
>
>Rob,
> The lack of berthing areas in any Trav design systems has always
> puzzled me too. In the very few deckplans I've drawn, I've simply used
> the tonnage alloted to those staterooms and used it to create berthing
> and rec areas aboard. Junior officers slept 2 to a stateroom (in bunks)
> and seniors got a single.
<Snip a fascinating description of life on a target. (There are two types
of ships - submarines and targets.)>
Let's see. There are three main berthing spaces on a 688. Forward
berthing has 24 racks; aft has 39. All racks are stacked three high, and
there are usually a few more than 39 people living in aft berthing due to
hot-racking. Between these two berthing spaces is a head with three
commodes, one urinal, two showers, and four sinks. Just outside the door
to aft berthing is the nine-man bunkroom; on first flight 688s (688 through
699) this was the central computer complex, but they've all been modified
so that it's a bunkroom on all boats. The other large berthing space is
the 21-man bunkroom, down in lower level; across the passageway from it is
the lower-level head, with one commode, one shower, and two
sinks. Depending on operations and weapons loadout, anywhere from six to
twelve temporary racks may be set up in the torpedo room (sitting on the
skids, taking up space which would otherwise contain torpedoes); the
occupants of these, who are usually the most junior people on the boat, and
who may also be hot-racking, also use the lower-level head. That's it for
blueshirt (E6 and below) berthing.
Most of the chiefs (E7-E9) live in the goat locker. Their berthing space
holds twelve racks; and they also have a small lounge (most of which is
taken up by a table and the surrounding bench - think a corner booth at
Denny's or Applebee's) and a head with one commode, one shower, and two
sinks. There are actually around 14 or 15 chiefs on board, under normal
circumstances; the extras usually claim bunks in forward berthing, which is
the closest berthing space to the goat locker.
Most (nine) of the officers live in the three wardroom staterooms. Each
has three bunks, which I think are a wee bit longer than our bunks and have
more room between them because they have regular lockers for stowage,
rather than the coffin lockers we enlisted men use. Each stateroom also
includes two fold-down desks and a fold-down sink. The wardroom head
contains one each sink, shower, and commode. The two or three most junior
officers get racks in nine-man.
The XO has a semi-private stateroom with a double bunk - the extra bunk is
usually used as an extra desk, except when there's a senior rider (O5 or
above) on board. He has a desk and a sink similar to those in the wardroom
staterooms. The CO has his own stateroom, with the standard fold-down desk
and sink. His bunk folds up into the bulkhead, and its supports become a
table and two seats. (Luxury!) These two staterooms are connected by a
head with one each shower and commode. (Don't recall there being a sink in
there, but then they both have sinks in their staterooms.)
Officers normally eat in the weirdroom (excuse me - I mean "wardroom"),
which also serves as conference room, officers' lounge, and the doc's
emergency surgery. (There are brackets above the table for mounting four
battle lanterns to give him extra light.) Everyone else eats in the crew's
mess, which holds two six-man tables and three four-man tables. (One of
the six-man tables is normally reserved for the chiefs.) Said crew's mess,
incidentally, also serves as lecture hall and blueshirts' lounge between meals.
Let's see - using *very* approximate figures, the chiefs get:
berthing - 7' x 13' x 6.5' = 591.5 cu ft
lounge - 9' x 6' x 6.5' = 351 cu ft
head - 8' x 5' x 6.5' = 260 cu ft
chiefs' table - 6' x 5' x 6.5' = 195 cu ft
three racks in fwd berthing - 6' x 2.5' x 6.5' = 97.5 cu ft
total - 1495 cu ft for 15 chiefs, meaning approximately 100 cu ft per
person.
One cubic meter is around 36 cubic feet, so that means a little under 3
cubic meters per man. (Anybody want to check my math?)
James
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3688
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Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3688
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3689
Date: | 2/16/01 11:14:56 PM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Saturday, February 17 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3689
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Civility and Politeness.
RE: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Deep Space Refulling
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Shipboard living (was Civility and politeness)
Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Suitcase Nukes...
Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Bertram Chandler
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Shipboard living (was Civility and politeness)
Re: Legal Qs
Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:22:05 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
At 03:47 AM 2/16/01 +0000, Larsen E Whipsnade wrote:
>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
> "Under the mattress is the coffin locker, which is the width
>and length of said mattress, and maybe four inches deep; this, plus a
>small locker about the size of two shoeboxes..."
>
> I've been out for close to 14 years now. After reading the
> description of the coffin locker above, I realize it's dimensions are
> closer to reality than the 8"-10" depth I wrote about in my previous post.
I can fit a cassette tape into my coffin locker standing on its long
edge. When I was on the tender, which also had triple racks but which had
significantly higher overheads (ceilings), I could put a cassette in
standing on its end, so the locker was about an inch deeper. (I also had a
half-height standup locker, similar to high-school lockers, in berthing,
and a second locker in my office, so I had considerably more storage space
on the tender than I have on the boat.)
At least on the boat I have a small vent blowing cold air in right next to
my pillow!
> We lucked out when compared to the boats though. Our perpetually
> undermanned status meant that we never had to "hot rack".
The only blueshirts guaranteed not to hot-rack are cooks and mess
cooks. Qualified people (those who have earned their dolphins) usually
don't, though E4 and below - and occasionally E5 - may have to. And then
there was a time on my first boat when we went to sea for a few days with
around 80 riders on board - even qualified E6 were hot-racking!
James
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:31:15 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
At 12:33 PM 2/16/01 -0800, William Lane wrote:
>Also shower arrangements. Showering consisited of a small line with a nozzel
>with a single button. You turned on the water just as you do at home however
>no water would come out till you hit that button. Your bathing procedure was
>simply.
>
>Rinse down.
>Soap up
>Rinse off
>Dry off
>get dressed 8P
I remember those &*%^# shower hoses from the tender I was on. We have
normal showers on a 688, but the routine is the same:
Turn on water
Rinse down
Turn off water (or push the water-saver button on the showerhead)
Soap up
Turn on water
Rinse off
Turn off water
The goal is to have the water actually running for no more than three
minutes per shower. People who try taking long showers are known as "water
buffalos," and are soon straightened out. 8)
And don't forget all the times showers are secured because the stills are
down, or the fresh-water tanks were contaminated by oil, or....
James
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 03:53:25 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
>From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
"That is correct. IMTU, you need the mass (or more correctly the
distortions in jump space caused by the mass) to precipitate the vessel
out of jump space."
Mr. Jones-Low,
Thank you for responding to my question. It was very kind of you.
I must say the idea of mass assisted jump exit precipitation has many
fun connotations. C.J. Cherryh has used it to great effect in many of her
novels. With that and the other bits you mentioned, I am sure that your
players find their campaigns enjoyable in your hands.
My "thickness" about the issue is unforgivable in retrospect. The idea
of jump shadowing, as showcased in GT:Far Trader, has forced me to
re-examine my ideas up it and I've been trolling the list for ideas and
theories.
Thanks for sharing yours.
Bill
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 19:54:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
In mail you write:
> Hmm, it's been a while since I read "Mote". Don't remember tramlines.
> They had the "Alderson drive", right? Jump points inside stars, lines
> changed over time.
Jump points were determined by nuclear forces generated in stars. The
one for the Mote was *unusual* that it was inside the outer atmosphere
of a Red giant.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 04:17:08 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Shipboard living (was Civility and politeness)
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
"I remember those &*%^# shower hoses from the tender I was on. We
have normal showers on a 688, but the routine is the same:
<snip>
"The goal is to have the water actually running for no more than three
minutes per shower. People who try taking long showers are known as
"water buffalos," and are soon straightened out. 8)
And don't forget all the times showers are secured because the stills are
down, or the fresh-water tanks were contaminated by oil, or...."
Ah yes, the infamous "hollywood" shower. We had a chief in 1st divison
that actually timed how long his non-rates took to bathe.
One of my proudest accomplishments as a snipe was that my ship never
went on "water hours"; ie. secured showers or restricted drinking fountains.
Water production was the object of great competition between the two
engine rooms. Both our "evaps" were routinely tweaked, coaxed, and babied
into running at 120 or 130% of rated capacity.
Valve positions, temperatures, vacumn levels all were discussed
heatedly among the participants and debated endlessly. Copies of the steam
tables were bandied about like holy writ. If you think things get hot here
on the TML, you should have seen the arguments about evap operations in our
berthing compartments! Daily throughput was measured by flow meters and the
dialy, weekly, or monthly output crowed or cursed over. We were able to
make more water than we could store sometimes and would run the output into
the bilge.
One shipmate of mine, who was an acknowledged "water wizard", insisted
on "freshly" claibrated thermometers and contact pyrometer readings on the
evap's shell. He had these secret temperatures and locations, along with
valve positions, written down in his "pocket brain". We all carried small
note books in which we jotted down system diagrams, valve locations,
procedures, tips, tricks, etc. My friend actually "willed' his "brain" to a
younger sailor when he was discharged. I "willed" away mine too.
Anyone wanting to detail a few quirks for their engineering PC or NPC
can find plenty of ideas there.
Larsen
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:34:19 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Hmm, perhaps the 100D limit check is performed at the same instant in
> time along the entire "virtual" jump line that the jump field is created.
> No, that won't do at all. A poorly chosen exit point could be outside
> a 100D limit at a jump's 0 hour and inside it at a jump's 168 hour.
That's exactly what can happen IMTU :)
The problem is that if the jump takes a week no matter what, and ships
drop out of jump upon hitting the 100D limit of an object, then there
are only two reasonable possibilities that I can think of:
A) The 100D check is performed only at the end of the week, or
B) The ship can drop into normal space inside a 100D limit.
I chose B.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 04:36:11 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
>From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
"Snip a fascinating description of life on a target. (There are two
types of ships - submarines and targets.)"
As a "sub-vol" I agree. After receiving orders to a CGN, I withdrew my
NROTC paperwork and decided not to make the Navy a career.
This, for YTU, could be a good reason for navy PCs with 8 or 12 years in
that didn't go for their pensions. "Why'd I get out? They cut me orders to
a Gazelle squadron that's why! I'm a battlewagon man! I'll be damned if I
gonna ride in one of those gnats!"
"Let's see. There are three main berthing spaces on a 688. Forward
berthing has 24 racks; aft has 39 Let's see - using *very* approximate
figures, the chiefs get:
berthing - 7' x 13' x 6.5' = 591.5 cu ft
lounge - 9' x 6' x 6.5' = 351 cu ft
head - 8' x 5' x 6.5' = 260 cu ft
chiefs' table - 6' x 5' x 6.5' = 195 cu ft
three racks in fwd berthing - 6' x 2.5' x 6.5' = 97.5 cu ft
total - 1495 cu ft for 15 chiefs, meaning approximately 100 cu
ft perperson.
One cubic meter is around 36 cubic feet, so that means a little under 3
cubic meters per man. (Anybody want to check my math?)"
I've always "hung my hat" on the idea of "SDBs are 57th century
submaines". As many weapons as possible crammed into a hull and the crew
fit in somehow later. I even gone as far as to detail blue and gold crews
for SDBs so they can stay on station longer.
Larsen
P.S. I had the pleasure to help build a few 688s and Ohios at Electric Boat
after my discharge and while attending college. The 688s are small and
cramped, but the Ohios had better living conditions than my cruiser did.
They should have too, they were longer and displaced more than my cruiser
but had a smaller crew.
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:05:59 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
In mail you write:
> At 11:35 AM 2/17/2001 +1100, you wrote:
>
>>Tasmanian driver's licences have a section in which you indicate
>>whether or not you are willing to donate organs. If you don't fill
>>that section in, they assume you are willing to donate.
>
> Funny, I have a note that tells them *not* to harvest my organs under any
> circumstance. To much damage from HD and chemo. My parts are going to
> Stanford University Medical School for use by students.
I'm seriously considering putting in a request in my will (or wherever
the lawyer says it has to go) that anything not usable for transplant
go to the forensic scientist running the "body farm" back east. He's
studying how bodies decompose in various situations to help in
determing time of death for bodies in various situations.
I figure that it'd help get useful info, and I'm just weird enough to
be amused by the thought of my "mortal remains" being used that way.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:43:19 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Suitcase Nukes...
Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:
>While I know that even the US military wasn't stupid enough to develop
>the legendary "nuclear hand grenade" I have some vague memories of what
>might be best described as a "nuclear satchel charge".
Not only do they exist, they're in the hands of terrorists!! Here's a direct
quote from the opening remarks at the HEARING ON SECURITY OF
RUSSIAN NUCLEAR WEAPONS AND MATERIALS, on October 2, 1997:
"As a reknowned scientist who has been active in the Russian government,
Dr. Yablokov has come into contact with Russian nuclear weapon
scientists and engineers who have designed and managed Russia's nuclear
arsenal. In recent press statements and a television interview, Dr. Yablokov
said he can independently verify the existence of the small, man-portable
"suitcase" nuclear weapons that Aleksandr Lebed, former Secretary of the
Russian Security Council, has alleged are missing and possibly in terrorist
hands.
Lebed's allegations about missing Russian nuclear weapons first came to
light when I led a congressional delegation to Russia and met with Lebed
on May 30. Lebed told us that, while still acting in his capacity as
Secretary of the Russian Security Council, he had conducted a study of the
Russian military's accounting for its nuclear weapons, and found that the
military had lost track of 84 suitcase-sized nuclear bombs, any one of
which could kill up to 100,000 people. The Russian government has officially
denied the existence of such weapons. However, according to the transcript
of the television interview with Dr. Yablokov, Russian TV ran video footage
showing a "suitcase" nuclear bomb."
Sleep well everyone.
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:45:40 -0800
From: "Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org>
Subject: Artillery falls from the sky...
Thom Harris <thomharr@mediaone.net> writes:
>I once had a mortar land about 10 meters in front of me. I didn't get hit by
>any shrapnel but I was knocked unconscious and was bleeding from nose ears
>and eyes. The first guy to get to me thought I had taken a shrapnel/round
>through the head.....
The *WHOLE* mortar?!? Damn, dude. Most of us just get the mortar
*shells* lobbed at us. Who did *you* piss off?
- Mark C.
mark f. cook * shoestring graphics & printing * markc@ssgfx.com
7160 n.w. somerset dr. * corvallis, or, 97330 * http://www.ssgfx.com
Phone: 541-745-5709 Fax: 541-745-5818
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 04:52:16 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
>From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
"The problem is that if the jump takes a week no matter what, and ships
drop out of jump upon hitting the 100D limit of an object, then there are
only two reasonable possibilities that I can think of:
A) The 100D check is performed only at the end of the week, or
B) The ship can drop into normal space inside a 100D limit.
I chose B."
Mr. Little,
Now we come full circle to to Mr. Jones-Low's worrys about exiting jump
too close to a body, and on a vector, that won't allow you to avoid a
collision.
BTW, I had a nice post from him earlier. He explained that IHTU, you
must have has a mass to force precipitation out of jump; as in C.J.
Cherryh's novels.
I think that we might be able to come up with a "theory" that could
consistantly explain all of this. It would have to take into account:
1) Mr. Miller's 3000km/parsec exit point navigational error rate.
2) The 100D limit for jump entry.
3) The 100D limit for jump exit.
4) The precipitation effect.
5) A solution to the 3-body problem you posed earlier.
6) A way for the precipitation effect to occur, but without the
possibility of your "precipitator" working.
I going to put it throuigh the mental wringer over the weekend.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:59:18 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Bertram Chandler
Any recommendation on which of his books are best?
Bookfinder list (may need to cut and paste it to use it)
http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?author=bertram+chandler&title=&submit=Begin+Search&new_used=*&currency=USD&mode=basic&st=sr&ac=qr
The one book Amazon can order:
Up to the Sky: In & Out of Quandry
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0915368161/qid=982385768/sr=1-2/ref=sc_b_2/105-4067736-8204708
bloo
Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> On 16 Feb 2001, at 4:49, Gordon Hundley wrote:
>
> > on 16/2/01 2:44 am, James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain at
> > alasdair.maciain@snet.net wrote:
> >
> > > I've always been extremely fond of A Bertram Chandler's John Grimes
> > > series. Chandler was an Australian (originally English) merchant-marine
> > > skipper who killed time on long voyages by writing SF, and the books are
> > > *very* heavily flavoured by both the Australian and the merchant-marine
> > > aspects of Chandler's own life.
> >
> > Hurrah. You're the only other fan of A Bertram Chandler that I've heard of. I
> > love his books. They're not so easy to find in the UK. Many were published here,
> > but they didn't stay in print long, and they were published under several
> > different publishers. He wrote a large number of books, of which I've only got a
> > dozen or so. One day I'll track down an Aussie second hand SF bookstore and
> > order a heap of them.
>
> I laways rather liked them, but aside from two or three in my public library
> I've never seen them here.
>
> --
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 18:01:21 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
On 16 Feb 2001, at 0:46, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
>
> > David Weber's Honor Harrington series (which I'm also reading) is
> > an interesting blend of Napoleonic Navy and SF (he dedicates the
> > first book to C.S.Forester). I quite liked the first one, decent
> > explanations of the tech and social stuff in the milieu (except
> > perhaps how they duplicated 18th/19th c. British governmental and
> > military customs). And I don't know about their ships - able to
> > accelerate at 500+g's! (Some damn good inertia compensators)
>
> There's a story where they describe the effects of a compensator
> failure. Ick.
>
> Also, there's a website (www.pegasuspublishing.com?) that has
> authorized merchandise for both the Honor Harrington and Miles
> Vorkosigan series. I've got to get an Elysian Space Navy baseball cap.
> Also some of the "Harrington Steading" items.
>
> And just because I'm weird, I need one of the "Barryan Imperial
> Security: Interrogation Unit" T-shirts.
Oooh yes. Do they have Imperial Dress Greens for the complete masochist's
collection?
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:05:13 -0600
From: John Groth <wombat@premier.net>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
"Mark F. Cook" wrote:
>
> Thom Harris <thomharr@mediaone.net> writes:
>
> >I once had a mortar land about 10 meters in front of me. I didn't get hit by
> >any shrapnel but I was knocked unconscious and was bleeding from nose ears
> >and eyes. The first guy to get to me thought I had taken a shrapnel/round
> >through the head.....
>
> The *WHOLE* mortar?!? Damn, dude. Most of us just get the mortar
> *shells* lobbed at us. Who did *you* piss off?
Well, if it was a 60mm mortar, it could have broken loose from a
paratrooper.... ;-)
ObTrav: What kind of support weapons do jump troops carry IYTU?
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
Keeper of the TML Keyboard Casualty List
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:03:30 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Peter Newman wrote:
> According to DGP, and thus unusable by SJG, the third child
> was the heir in the Vilani noble tradition. Therefore some titles
> in the Third Imperium, especially in the Vilani Cultural Region,
> may well be inheritable by the third child.
DGP cannot own the idea of a third child inheriting.
They have a copyright on their particular expression of that idea.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:07:59 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> P.S. I've always thought that the "doings" at Stalag 13 would make for an
> excellent light operaretta.
Funny. I've always thought that operetta, light or heavy, would be
worse than being in the real Stalag 13.
:-P
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:35:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
In mail you write:
> on 16/2/01 9:25 am, Leonard Erickson at shadow@krypton.rain.com wrote:
>
>>> Err... have you seen this week's JTAS? It's coming, and there's a sneak
>>> preview. Interestingly, there's a mention of primogeniture, but it fails
> to
>>> mention ultimogeniture, which would be likely found as an 'unusual
>>> circumstance', as well as old-fashioned patrilinear primogeniture, which
> is.
>>> Also, there's no note as to whether the Imperium uses agnatic or uterine
>>> lineage. But it is a sneak peek.
>>
>> Translation please? I recognized about three of the "technical terms"
> listed.
>
> Fair enough, I assume this is the jargon you want defined:
>
> primogeniture: jural (of or relating to law) right of inheritance belonging
> to the first-born (son)
That one I knew.
> ultimogeniture: jural (of or relating to law) right of inheritance belonging
> to the last-born (son)
Somebody actually *did* this?
> patrilinear: related to descent on the male side to another male
And that one.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:37:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Shipboard living (was Civility and politeness)
In mail you write:
> One of my proudest accomplishments as a snipe was that my ship never
> went on "water hours"; ie. secured showers or restricted drinking fountains.
> Water production was the object of great competition between the two
> engine rooms. Both our "evaps" were routinely tweaked, coaxed, and babied
> into running at 120 or 130% of rated capacity.
> Valve positions, temperatures, vacumn levels all were discussed
> heatedly among the participants and debated endlessly. Copies of the steam
> tables were bandied about like holy writ. If you think things get hot here
> on the TML, you should have seen the arguments about evap operations in our
> berthing compartments! Daily throughput was measured by flow meters and the
> dialy, weekly, or monthly output crowed or cursed over. We were able to
> make more water than we could store sometimes and would run the output into
> the bilge.
> One shipmate of mine, who was an acknowledged "water wizard", insisted
> on "freshly" claibrated thermometers and contact pyrometer readings on the
> evap's shell. He had these secret temperatures and locations, along with
> valve positions, written down in his "pocket brain". We all carried small
> note books in which we jotted down system diagrams, valve locations,
> procedures, tips, tricks, etc. My friend actually "willed' his "brain" to a
> younger sailor when he was discharged. I "willed" away mine too.
If you haven't read it, try tracking down a copy of "Now Hear This!" by
Adm. Gallery. There's a sequence in there involving a water shortage
that ought to give you a few laughs.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:10:38 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Legal Qs
Michael Daumen wrote:
> Not even, that's a federal question with no lower limit.
Doh! Umm, it was a typo? Hehe. The slips you make when you
don't practice. :-)
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 05:17:19 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
>From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
"Funny. I've always thought that operetta, light or heavy, would be
worse than being in the real Stalag 13."
Bloo,
Think "Pirates of Penzance" or "HMS Pinafore" rather than "Carmen".
Light, frothy, and above all fun. The charecter od Schultz alone begs to be
brought to the stage.
My mother worked as a pediatric nurse for years. After the show's
cancellation, John Banner, toured the country as Schultz visiting sick
children in the hospital.
Think about that. A fellow dressed up as a Nazi prison guard
entertaining sick children. Only in America.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 23:20:25 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Michael Daumen wrote:
> Just curtail the right to appeal and you have a pretty efficient court.
I agree completely. If all appeals are only by leave of the area
Count or Marquis, it's going to be a major pain in the ass for
many litigants to even get to him.
An idea I just had, triggered by the above. Create the rank
of Esquire (or Squire), one Soc below Knight. Non-heriditary.
Esquires act as agents in Noble courts, i.e., if you want to
use the Imperial courts, you must have an Esquire for a lawyer.
That would even be close to the literal meaning of the term.
Esquires could be like barristers, with solicitor-type lawyers
being of any Soc. You might expand the role of esquires to
be a required agent for any commoner who needs access to
a noble for just about any reason. Want to get into the
Domain's Naval Academy, get an esquire to present the issue
to the noble, or more likely, the noble's right hand man.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:52:59 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net> wrote:
> sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> > One easy solution would be to pass a law saying that everyone who
> > does *not* sign a piece of paper saying they have religious or other
> > personal reasons for donating organs must do so after they die.
>
> Tasmanian driver's licences have a section in which you indicate
> whether or not you are willing to donate organs. If you don't fill
> that section in, they assume you are willing to donate.
Cool! Is there any data on how this affects donor availability? If it's
still too low, the next step would be to have a special form you
must go in and sign or request to not donate. Then again, I'm very
much of the opinion that if it matters to you you should make and
effort, and if it doesn't matter enough to make an effort, you should
donate when dead.
However, all this will likely be a moot point within 10-15 years since
researchers are working hard at vat growing organs (bladders are
already a success, and they are now working on creating vat-grown
hearts, livers, and kidneys. With those, the necessity of using non-
vat grown organs will largely vanish except for corneas (which IIRC,
there are few shortage problems). As for myself, I'll see if I can find
a reliable firm to freeze me.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:10:34 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
On 16 Feb 2001, at 23:05, John Groth wrote:
> "Mark F. Cook" wrote:
> >
> > Thom Harris <thomharr@mediaone.net> writes:
> >
> > >I once had a mortar land about 10 meters in front of me. I didn't get hit by
> > >any shrapnel but I was knocked unconscious and was bleeding from nose ears
> > >and eyes. The first guy to get to me thought I had taken a shrapnel/round
> > >through the head.....
> >
> > The *WHOLE* mortar?!? Damn, dude. Most of us just get the mortar
> > *shells* lobbed at us. Who did *you* piss off?
>
> Well, if it was a 60mm mortar, it could have broken loose from a
> paratrooper.... ;-)
>
> ObTrav: What kind of support weapons do jump troops carry IYTU?
IMTU their support carries them - they use starships :)
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3689
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Traveller-digest Saturday, February 17 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3690
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Deep Space Refuelling
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Food Synthesisers
Re: Suitcase Nukes...
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Anti-RPG
Trade Routes by Anthony Jackson & Terry Mixon
A. Bertram Chandler was Re: Civility and Politeness
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
RE: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Suitcase Nukes...
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Viruses?
Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Re: Deep Space Jumps
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 19:51:41 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
sneadj@mindspring.com wrote:
> Cool! Is there any data on how this affects donor availability?
Probably, but I can't find it in a quick Web search :)
What I did find was that Victoria and Tasmania have among the highest
organ donation rates in the world. However, donation of major organs
requires that death occurs in a hospital under certain conditions, so
it's still pretty uncommon for actual organ donation to occur even
when the deceased has given permission. There isn't much time between
cessation of circulation and organ deterioration.
> As for myself, I'll see if I can find a reliable firm to freeze me.
Well, you could always do both -- be frozen after having organs
removed. After all, any medical science good enough to repair all the
cell damage from freezing should easily be able to grow you a new
heart, lung and kidney or two :)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:15:04 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
[Quoting me]
> B) The ship can drop into normal space inside a 100D limit.
>
> I chose B."
> Now we come full circle to to Mr. Jones-Low's worrys about
> exiting jump too close to a body, and on a vector, that won't allow
> you to avoid a collision.
We do indeed :)
However, it is interesting to note that if B is chosen, the chance of
hitting a body by accident increases rapidly as the size of the body
increases (quadratically), until the point where the 100D limit is
larger than a week's travel.
> BTW, I had a nice post from him earlier. He explained that
> IHTU, you must have has a mass to force precipitation out of jump;
> as in C.J. Cherryh's novels.
Yes, that's an interesting idea. I haven't read C.J.Cherryh's novels,
so I don't know what happens if you miss the body you were aiming for.
Do you die in jumpspace, or just end up at the first major body in
your flight path (which may be in another galaxy)?
> I think that we might be able to come up with a "theory" that could
> consistantly explain all of this. It would have to take into account:
>
> 1) Mr. Miller's 3000km/parsec exit point navigational error rate.
> 2) The 100D limit for jump entry.
> 3) The 100D limit for jump exit.
> 4) The precipitation effect.
> 5) A solution to the 3-body problem you posed earlier.
> 6) A way for the precipitation effect to occur, but without the
> possibility of your "precipitator" working.
7) Jumps take 1 week (plus or minus 10%) under all circumstances.
1 is pretty easy, nearly any theory could have that sort of error.
For number 2, we know that entering jump is possible within 100D --
just unsafe. So this one is also not too bad.
3,6 and 7 are the hard ones to reconcile. I've ignored (3) IMTU,
though it would be an interesting mental exercise to come up with a
model that covers all three of these conditions.
I suspect the solution to the 3-body problem would naturally follow
from the nature of the model.
> I going to put it throuigh the mental wringer over the weekend.
Keep posting! (Well, unless others are getting sick of the topic)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:28:00 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Deep Space Refuelling
As a byproduct of my previous calculations, I've figured out an easy
way for a 200-ton ship to bridge an 8-parsec gap with only 120 tons
tank space, and without resorting to drop tanks or any similar dubious
items.
Use 80 tons LH2, make a jump-4. Refine 40 tons of H2O into 80 tons of
LH2 with a small fuel processor, and make another jump-4.
In fact, if time were no object you could go up to 11 parsecs by
making successive 1-parsec jumps followed by refining of the fuel for
the next jump. The fact that water is cheaper and easier to handle
than LH2 is just an added bonus :)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:17:44 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
John Snead wrote :-
>> Tasmanian driver's licences have a section in which you indicate
>> whether or not you are willing to donate organs. If you don't fill
>> that section in, they assume you are willing to donate.
>
> Cool! Is there any data on how this affects donor availability?
Australia has the second worst donation rate in the OECD.
This legislation has had no influence whatsoever (in any case, with donor
rates of <10 per million, Tasmania doesn't contribute very much to the
Australian pool, with a total pop of ~350K).
In my experience, it doesn't matter about the driver's licence declaration.
The relatives of the potential organ donor tend to override it, and there is
nothing that can be done about this.
There have been a number of recent cases in the UK and Australia concerning
the procurement of organs and the inappropriate withholding of treatment
from people in persistent vegetative states who were regarded as 'brain
dead' by consultant medical staff who should have known better.
> With those, the necessity of using non-vat grown organs will largely
> vanish except for corneas (which IIRC, there are few shortage problems).
Supply almost matches demand for corneas, in Australia. There are relatively
few indications for corneal grafting.
> As for myself, I'll see if I can find a reliable firm to freeze me.
Hopefully they'll have the problem of delayed post cardiopulmonary bypass
cognitive impairment licked by the time you're thawed.
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:11:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
In mail you write:
> On 16 Feb 2001, at 0:46, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> In mail you write:
>>
>> > David Weber's Honor Harrington series (which I'm also reading) is
>> > an interesting blend of Napoleonic Navy and SF (he dedicates the
>> > first book to C.S.Forester). I quite liked the first one, decent
>> > explanations of the tech and social stuff in the milieu (except
>> > perhaps how they duplicated 18th/19th c. British governmental and
>> > military customs). And I don't know about their ships - able to
>> > accelerate at 500+g's! (Some damn good inertia compensators)
>>
>> There's a story where they describe the effects of a compensator
>> failure. Ick.
>>
>> Also, there's a website (www.pegasuspublishing.com?) that has
>> authorized merchandise for both the Honor Harrington and Miles
>> Vorkosigan series. I've got to get an Elysian Space Navy baseball cap.
>> Also some of the "Harrington Steading" items.
>>
>> And just because I'm weird, I need one of the "Barryan Imperial
>> Security: Interrogation Unit" T-shirts.
>
> Oooh yes. Do they have Imperial Dress Greens for the complete masochist's
> collection?
No, but they have Harrington Steading *towel sets*. And ImpSec eyes!
They also have a bunch of IOU and Miskatonic University stuff. Like a
Miskatonic U. Alchemy Dept lab coat!
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 01:18:18 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Food Synthesisers
It depends if you want your highly-paid starship crew eating re-processed algae and stuff.
Me, I'd just buy fresh food for them, even if you had a food synthesiser (aka type IV and up life
support) on board.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 04:29:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Suitcase Nukes...
A buddy of mine, a former Air Force nuclear weapons technician, was
called upon to perform manintenance on dozens of nuclear weapons during
his 20+ years, including what he referred to as man-portable nuclear
engineering charges. He said the special operations folks were
allegedly supposed to hump these into enemy territory to take out dams
and such.
Now, he said the charges he maintained were barely man-portable being
quite heavy (this being 1960s-1970s technology) but he never ruled out
smaller suitcase bombs using more advanced technology.
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
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Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
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**********************************************************************************************
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 01:49:43 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
On 16 Feb 2001, at 9:19, John Groth wrote:
> Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >
> <<snip>>
> >
> > And just because I'm weird, I need one of the "Barryan Imperial
> > Security: Interrogation Unit" T-shirts.
>
> I have one of those. As an interrogator myself, it seemed appropriate.
> ;-)
>
> Actually, that is an MOS which I share with David Drake (he was an
> interrogator in Vietnam). When I returned from Operation JUST CAUSE, I
> attended a con in Boston (Arisia, IIRC), and had a chnace to swap war
> stories with David Drake.
Seems to be a popular specialty - my late classics lecturer was an interrogator
in the Rhodesian Army.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:57:01 +0000
From: Martin Hardgrave <martin@deira.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Anti-RPG
In message <006901c0948f$3b9182c0$50c890c6@Ptiamat>, Kiri Aradia Morgan
<tiamat@tsoft.com> writes
>It's hard to believe
>that any book is the absolute revealed divine truth
just as well that most christians don't then
- --
Martin Hardgrave
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 13:16:55 GMT
From: "John G. Wood" <elvwood@ntlworld.com>
Subject: Trade Routes by Anthony Jackson & Terry Mixon
Folks,
I have been continuing to develop my landgrab entry, Prilissa (although
nothing new has been posted yet), and am preparing a spinoff article to
submit to JTAS*. Vital to this is an analysis of trade passing through
the world (Spinward Marches 3035).
I did my own calculations based on Far Trader, and compared the results
with Terry Mixon's map at
http://www.ghg.net/tmixon/Trade/Trin.gif
and Anthony Jackson's, a pdf linked from
http://maps.grandsurvey.com/sec//ec.spinward_marches.html
- - and thank you both for putting the work into these sites!
My results seem much closer to Terry's than to Anthony's, and I was
wondering if this was because the latter ignored X-Boat routes.
Sticking to jump-2 connections forces trade between Trin and the rest
of the subsector to go via Prilissa rather than Hammermium and Katrulu,
which could account for the difference.
Can anyone confirm or deny this?
John
http://www.elvw.demon.co.uk/Traveller/
* Don't worry, you won't lose access to the landgrab world write-up;
the JTAS submission is an adventure based entirely on the highport
which draws on the info but doesn't repeat much of it.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:47:58 -0000
From: "Charles Nicholas Walker" <cnw@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: A. Bertram Chandler was Re: Civility and Politeness
Gordon Hundley <gh@krypteia.demon.co.uk wrote>
>Hurrah. You're the only other fan of A Bertram Chandler that I've heard of.
>I love his books. They're not so easy to find in the UK. Many were
published
>here, but they didn't stay in print long, and they were published under
>several different publishers. He wrote a large number of books, of which
>I've only got a dozen or so. One day I'll track down an Aussie second hand
>SF bookstore and order a heap of them.
>Oddly enough, the first book I picked up was called "The Far Traveller",
>published in the UK some time around when Traveller arrived here. Got my
>attention. :) In fact, his books make really good Traveller material if
>other folks here are looking for some fun inspirational fiction.
Where abouts are you in the UK Gordon? I have about 10 of his books and if
you are near we could lend each other ones we have not read! here are the
titles I have
The Big Black Mark
The Rim of Space/the Ship from Outside
Bring Back Yesterday
Matilda's Stepchildren
Catch the Star Winds
The Deep reaches of space
Beyond the Galactic Rim
When the Dream Dies
The Wild Ones
Nick
Behold, his feet leave tracks in the sands of time,
and Death walks at his left hand...
UTUP.
0609-A666A667-5-5-2
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 09:07:00 -0500
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Was written:
> One key reason for the shortage of donor organs is that
> you can't buy and sell them. Of course demand exceeds supply,
> since we're not at a market equilibrium price.
The reply was:
Would you really like to see that? That's about the only way I can
see actual organlegging coming about. Poor people would be
selling one of their kidneys on ebay and some of the urban legends
about involuntary kidney removal would come true. IMHO some
things should *never* be on the open market <shudder>.
I hate to tell you this but I have heard that to a certain degree it is
already happening in China. Condemned prisoners kept alive and fresh like
fish in a pond to be executed to order on demand when a match is found for
their major organs. It is a nice tidy source of income in certain quarters.
Best of all it is justifiable under the prevailing state philosophy.
Dan
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:22:16
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
At 08:45 PM 2/16/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>Thom Harris <thomharr@mediaone.net> writes:
>
>>I once had a mortar land about 10 meters in front of me. I didn't get hit by
>>any shrapnel but I was knocked unconscious and was bleeding from nose ears
>>and eyes. The first guy to get to me thought I had taken a shrapnel/round
>>through the head.....
>
>The *WHOLE* mortar?!? Damn, dude. Most of us just get the mortar
>*shells* lobbed at us. Who did *you* piss off?
"RUN AWAY!!!!!!"
Hmm... _Monty Python and The Siege of Khe Sahn_?
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:26:39
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Civility and Politeness.
At 10:31 PM 2/16/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>I remember those &*%^# shower hoses from the tender I was on. We have
>normal showers on a 688, but the routine is the same:
<snip>
>The goal is to have the water actually running for no more than three
>minutes per shower. People who try taking long showers are known as "water
>buffalos," and are soon straightened out. 8)
Perhaps you could clear something up for me. I've heard that sometimes sub
crewmembers are awarded "real showers" for doing something notable.. i.e.,
you can actually soak for a few minutes.
Myth or truth?
On the whole subject of shipboard accomadations, during the SF group's tour
of the USS Hornet, my constant mantra was "thank God I joined the Army,
thank God I joined the Army..."
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:01:50 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Suitcase Nukes...
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
"A buddy of mine, a former Air Force nuclear weapons technician, was
called upon to perform manintenance on dozens of nuclear weapons during
his 20+ years, including what he referred to as man-portable nuclear
engineering charges. He said the special operations folks were allegedly
supposed to hump these into enemy territory to take out dams
and such."
"Now, he said the charges he maintained were barely man-portable being
quite heavy (this being 1960s-1970s technology) but he never ruled out
smaller suitcase bombs using more advanced technology."
Mr. Harris,
It would be intersting to know whether these devices were fission or
fusion types. The thermonuclear (fusion) type uses a fission type as a
"trigger" of sorts, which would increase it's size and complexity. So, I'll
assume they're fission.
I do know that fusion weapons have a certain "shelf life". They need
"fresh" tritium have so often or they won't work properly. I'm wondering if
there are componenets in the "suitcase" fission variety that require
something similar.
If so, than the missing Soviet models might be beyond their useful
lifespans. The plutonium in them would still be dangerous however. It
could be repocessed and used to create another bomb or just used for it's
lethality.
Visualize a suicide bomber in a Cessna over a city if your choice. The
plane is a flying bomb, but not just to ram into anything. Instead, a
supply of Pu is distrbuted throughout the airframe. The Cessna detonates in
mid-air spreading a Pu "rain" over the target. Care to imagine the clean up
costs, or number of deaths 5, 10, 15 years hence?
With the amount of nuclear material "missing" worldwide, I'm surprised
it hasn't happened yet.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:20:57 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
From: "Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
"Was written:
One key reason for the shortage of donor organs is that
you can't buy and sell them. Of course demand exceeds supply,
since we're not at a market equilibrium price."
"Reply:
I hate to tell you this but I have heard that to a certain degree it is
already happening in China. Condemned prisoners kept alive and fresh like
fish in a pond to be executed to order on demand when a match is found for
their major organs. It is a nice tidy source of income in certain quarters.
Best of all it is justifiable under the prevailing state philosophy."
Mr. Phelps,
I believe that organs are already bought and sold in India. While it
might not be exactly legal there, the authorities do little to punish or
prevent it. The abject poor sell various organs while still alive, have
them removed, and pocket the cash.
Rumors of organleggers are urban myths here in the US but accepted as
the truth in Central America. There have been cases of 1st World visitors;
from the US, Europe, or Japan, being mobbed or even killed by villagers
certain they were there to steal children for organ harvesting.
I have read study suggesting that the low rate of organ donation among
African Americans can be in part explained by their fear that society will
do little to save them if they're injured and instead plan on using them for
repair parts. Considering their treatment here every day, this fear is
entirely understandable.
US television programs do little to assuage the general popualtion's
fear of donation. I have seen repeats of supposedly serious crime dramas in
which doctros have "jumped the gun" and harvested organs before they should
have. The sensational way any account of purported organlegging is reported
just adds to the general unease and fear surrounding it.
And yet, the media also glorifies donation with inspirational stories
about. The dichotomy of it all is very intriguing and I'm sure many
sociologists have researched the topic.
I must agree with the other posts and say that cloning organs or vat
growth of the same will be our only real way to ensure the needed supply.
Without descending into the morally bankrupt future Mr. Niven wrote
about, that is.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:06:26 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
My idea has always been the opposite. Since only the very rich and powerful
are going to be involved in any but the simplest interaction with commerce
law efficiency is not a goal. I think back to places like the
Austrian-Hungary Empire or the Vatican. Any kind of legal proceeding that
does not involve criminal acts are tied up in years of red tape as
different, powerful, people are busy playing turf war about every little
point involved.
Now criminal law will be swift, harsh and with very limited appeal. The rich
and powerful are not usually involved with criminal proceedings. I mean
what's the use of being a Duke if the same laws apply to you as apply to
everyone else? And nobles will have their own courts, which will probably
NOT be open for public scrutiny. It's not like the Imperium has any duty to
be open and transparent in its proceedings.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Steve Daniels
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 12:20 AM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Michael Daumen wrote:
> Just curtail the right to appeal and you have a pretty efficient court.
I agree completely. If all appeals are only by leave of the area
Count or Marquis, it's going to be a major pain in the ass for
many litigants to even get to him.
An idea I just had, triggered by the above. Create the rank
of Esquire (or Squire), one Soc below Knight. Non-heriditary.
Esquires act as agents in Noble courts, i.e., if you want to
use the Imperial courts, you must have an Esquire for a lawyer.
That would even be close to the literal meaning of the term.
Esquires could be like barristers, with solicitor-type lawyers
being of any Soc. You might expand the role of esquires to
be a required agent for any commoner who needs access to
a noble for just about any reason. Want to get into the
Domain's Naval Academy, get an esquire to present the issue
to the noble, or more likely, the noble's right hand man.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:36:29 -0800 (PST)
From: Troy Bradley <gladiator1999@yahoo.com>
Subject: Viruses?
hello List! Is there any data on the Viruses that are
running amok in the Third Imperium? Anything online?
What I am looking for is a brief description of
different viruses. ANY help would be apppreciated.
Send replies to:
Gladiator1999@yahoo.com
Thanx, Troy
=====
*If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything!
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Get personalized email addresses from Yahoo! Mail - only $35
a year! http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:54:14 +0000
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
IMTU:
1. No problem! Subject to efects of #2 below, or for plot-related "GM
Effects" :-)
2. >10<100D jump entry allowed but unsafe
3. Precipyitaion forced but causing usually a jump-relativity error, or
emergence in an unplanned location. Even with entry vector included,
the chance of an inescapable collision is "astronomical" unless it is a
plaot=driven effect.
4. No problem..
5. A ship will only be forced to precipitate from jump by planetoid+
sized masses.
Since the chance of an 100D radius of a planetoid intersecting the
line-of-travel" of a vessel in jump is literally 'astronomical', and can
be reduced further by jumping into a target area off the plane of the
ecliptic... IMTU it really is only plot-driven
7. +/- 10% time applies except in case of misjump (relativity error), or
"GM Effects"
My /02Cr of 'handwavium'...
Doug C.
<LBB since <1980>
Timothy Little wrote:
>
> Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> [Quoting me]
> > B) The ship can drop into normal space inside a 100D limit.
> >
> > I chose B."
>
> > Now we come full circle to to Mr. Jones-Low's worrys about
> > exiting jump too close to a body, and on a vector, that won't allow
> > you to avoid a collision.
>
> We do indeed :)
>
> However, it is interesting to note that if B is chosen, the chance of
> hitting a body by accident increases rapidly as the size of the body
> increases (quadratically), until the point where the 100D limit is
> larger than a week's travel.
>
> > BTW, I had a nice post from him earlier. He explained that
> > IHTU, you must have has a mass to force precipitation out of jump;
> > as in C.J. Cherryh's novels.
>
> Yes, that's an interesting idea. I haven't read C.J.Cherryh's novels,
> so I don't know what happens if you miss the body you were aiming for.
> Do you die in jumpspace, or just end up at the first major body in
> your flight path (which may be in another galaxy)?
>
> > I think that we might be able to come up with a "theory" that could
> > consistantly explain all of this. It would have to take into account:
> >
> > 1) Mr. Miller's 3000km/parsec exit point navigational error rate.
> > 2) The 100D limit for jump entry.
> > 3) The 100D limit for jump exit.
> > 4) The precipitation effect.
> > 5) A solution to the 3-body problem you posed earlier.
> > 6) A way for the precipitation effect to occur, but without the
> > possibility of your "precipitator" working.
>
> 7) Jumps take 1 week (plus or minus 10%) under all circumstances.
>
> 1 is pretty easy, nearly any theory could have that sort of error.
> For number 2, we know that entering jump is possible within 100D --
> just unsafe. So this one is also not too bad.
>
> 3,6 and 7 are the hard ones to reconcile. I've ignored (3) IMTU,
> though it would be an interesting mental exercise to come up with a
> model that covers all three of these conditions.
>
> I suspect the solution to the 3-body problem would naturally follow
> from the nature of the model.
>
> > I going to put it throuigh the mental wringer over the weekend.
>
> Keep posting! (Well, unless others are getting sick of the topic)
>
> --
> IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
> Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 03:04:32 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 16:51:58 -0000
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>
> >From: "Rob Davenport" <rgd@ohio.voyager.net>
> "Given the above figures, I get roughly 20 comets per cubic light
> week."
>
> Rob,
> My lack of up to date knowledge concerning Our Olde Game convinced me
> to add it's books and supplements to the reading pile stacked beside the arm
> chair in my den. Last night, I poured over everything I could find
> regarding jump. In Gurps:Traveller I came across a few tidbits concerning
> jump shadows and jump precipitation. Please note, I am assuming that OTU's
> version of Grandfather, Mr. Miller, has given this his chop.
> Page 120 simply states that a body as small as 1km can cause a ship
> that passes within 100D of it to "fall" out of jump. However, nothing
> states that this is how ALL jumps end,; I mean that use of a body to exit
> jump space is required.
> I think this nugget might explain a bit of the thinking behind Mr.
> Jones-Low's worries about emerging too close to a target and not having time
> to react before a collision. I don't believe he's entirely thought through
> that idea however. A ship fearful of this happening could simply "aim" to
> put it's exit point further away from the body in question.
>
I have thought this through, perhaps too much. I've started with the
descriptions of the Jump Drive, added a number of ideas presented here
and in other forums, stirred until I got something that I liked. The
result is a slightly tweaked system does not conform to all canon, or
necessarily to anyone else's description of how the jump drive works.
The changes I've made (and why):
1) The 100D limit is only a rule of thumb. The real limit is based
around tidal acceleration and the amount of distortion of normal space
by a near by mass. For Planets this limit is about 100D, but for Gas
Giants the limit is closer to 40D to 70D and for most stars the limit is
under 1AU, and in fact for all supergiant stars is inside the star
itself. This has the consequence of removing most of the travel time due
to Far Trader's Jump Masking, making the Tramp traders a little more
profitable by allowing them to make one additional jump per year. I
never liked the jump masking rules and liked being able to remove the
complexity.
2) All jumps must end at the 100D limit (or distortion limit) of a mass.
This limits the use of deep space jumps, requiring the finding of an
object in deep space. There are enough objects wandering in deep space
to make this possible, but not frequent. IMTU there are about 2 per
cubic light year. Finding one in the proper place can be worth a great
deal of money to the finder, either because it becomes a short cut for
traders or a "secret" military base.
The emergence point is based upon 100D limit, but because of variances
in the Jump drive, motion of object in space during the trip, the
velocity of the ship at the start of jump, and other unknown factors the
actual emergence point may be closer to the target point than 100D, but
only by the variance of the jump. This makes little difference for most
jumps except when you are jumping to a small object. This places the
(previously discussed) lower limit on the size of an object which can be
jumped to safely.
3) Since I like the idea of keeping Relativity more or less intact, I've
chosen the option of allowing paradox in order to keep both FTL and
Relativity. I think Grandfathers Pocket universe and Teleporters, the
jump drive, Bob Meson's guns and the Reactionless thrusters are all
different applications of the same handwavium physics. Using the
reactionless thrusters to accelerate to high velocities or to accelerate
large masses has a tendency to tear up jump space over a large area
making the jump drive unstable or unseable. Moving a large asteroid to
drop it on a planet, not even at near c velocities, can close off an
entire sub-sector, and using a ships boat as a near-c rock can affect a
sector or more.
4) In the "Where does the Jump Fuel go?" debate, I am firmly in the
"Used to maintain the jump bubble" camp. There are no such things as
Drop Tanks IMTU. Part of the Jump Drive is a pumping mechanism to cover
the ship with a protective layer of high density low temperature
hydrogen plasma.
Unrefined fuel causes problems because at the boundary of the bubble
and Jump Space the plasma is dispersed into Jump space. With the pure
hydrogen, the electrical imbalances are not too severe as the dispersion
is reasonably balanced. But with larger atoms, the charges can begin to
build in different parts of the bubble. The players really know they are
in trouble when they begin to see electrical discharges crawling over
the surface of the ship.
The early versions of the Vilani, Solomani and Hiver jump drives are
still used in some of the small pocket empires in my campaign. The
Vilani jump drive is built without jump capacitors, and using a slightly
different power distribution system. This requires the Vilani jump
dimming practice, but the ship is cheaper and easier for lower TL worlds
(TTL8 or TTL9) to build and maintain.
The Solomani jump drive does use capacitors, making it easier to power
up, and it is smaller and more power efficent than even the current
Imperial drives. It is however an immense fuel hog, taking two or three
times as much fuel as any other drive.
The Hiver Jump drive is smaller and even simpler than the Vilani jump
drive, though slightly less fuel efficient. The Hiver drive suffers from
the unfortunate side effect of having a catastrophic breakdown every few
jumps (d6+4), requiring the replacement of the entire drive. Usually the
breakdown occurs as the ship is trying to perform a jump, and the ship
simply doesn't go anywhere. There are various checks and replacements
you can do to extend the life of the drive, but sooner or later it
simply melts down into a large pile of slag.
Hope this gives you a better idea of where my thinking on Jump Drives,
and a few Ideas for your own universe.
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3690
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3691
Date: | 2/17/01 1:42:44 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Saturday, February 17 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3691
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Suitcase Nukes...
Re: Viruses?
Re: Suitcase Nukes...
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: Deep Space Refulling
Re: A Bertram Chandler
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Re: Updated TML roster?
RE: Starship Bunking (was: Re: Civility and Politeness)
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: Xboat List
Re: Nasty cargo bays...
Re: Updated TML roster?
Re: TGOOs
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
Re: [TML] What's in a name? (was: Deep Space Jumps)
RE: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 13:09:08 -0600
From: "Matthew W. Helton" <mwhelton@cox-internet.com>
Subject: RE: Suitcase Nukes...
>>>>"From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
"A buddy of mine, a former Air Force nuclear weapons technician, was
called upon to perform manintenance on dozens of nuclear weapons during
his 20+ years, including what he referred to as man-portable nuclear
engineering charges. He said the special operations folks were allegedly
supposed to hump these into enemy territory to take out dams
and such."
"Now, he said the charges he maintained were barely man-portable being
quite heavy (this being 1960s-1970s technology) but he never ruled out
smaller suitcase bombs using more advanced technology."
Mr. Harris,
It would be intersting to know whether these devices were fission or
fusion types. The thermonuclear (fusion) type uses a fission type as a
"trigger" of sorts, which would increase it's size and complexity. So, I'll
assume they're fission.
I do know that fusion weapons have a certain "shelf life". They need
"fresh" tritium have so often or they won't work properly. I'm wondering if
there are componenets in the "suitcase" fission variety that require
something similar.
If so, than the missing Soviet models might be beyond their useful
lifespans. The plutonium in them would still be dangerous however. It
could be repocessed and used to create another bomb or just used for it's
lethality.
Visualize a suicide bomber in a Cessna over a city if your choice. The
plane is a flying bomb, but not just to ram into anything. Instead, a
supply of Pu is distrbuted throughout the airframe. The Cessna detonates in
mid-air spreading a Pu "rain" over the target. Care to imagine the clean up
costs, or number of deaths 5, 10, 15 years hence?
With the amount of nuclear material "missing" worldwide, I'm surprised
it hasn't happened yet."<<<<
This all assumes that the Pit uses a boosted Tritium type primary. A
conventional fission physics package needs no Tritium. Boosted Fission
warheads can use Tritium to enhance the yield, depending on how much Tritium
(to a point) is added. Fusion warheads, of course, use Tritium to help
facilitate Fusing Hydrogen Atoms, although there are other elements that can
and have been used from time to time before tritium (Lithium Hydride).
I would imagine such a "Sapper" nuclear weapon would be as simple as
possible: emplace it, set the Arming and Fusing requirements, and bug out.
The reported yield of these little horrors is anywhere from .5 KT to 5 KT.
If the yield is selectable, then it would have to be a Boosted Tritium
weapon: the Half life of Tritium is fairly short, and would need
reprocessing every 3 to 5 years before becoming ineffective - or even
detrimental to a fission detonation.
Plutonium, while it is very poisonous, would not pose too much of a threat
unless it were pulverized (No mean feat) and spread as a dust (No mean feat
again). Since elemental Plutonium is spontaneously flammable in the presence
of oxygen, delivery would have to made quickly to have a significant impact
on a population: the clean up, while lengthy, would be simpler than an
Iron-55, Cesium-137 or Polonium cleanup. Chemically speaking, Plutonium is
easier to reduce and precipitate selectively than the above-mentioned
elements. I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Plutonium in the
warhead was nickel or copper (?) plated to prevent oxygen contamination
during assembly, but I don't remember for sure.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:25:19 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Viruses?
On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:36:29 -0800 (PST) gladiator1999@yahoo.com (Troy
Bradley) wrote:
>hello List! Is there any data on the Viruses that are
>running amok in the Third Imperium? Anything online?
>What I am looking for is a brief description of
>different viruses. ANY help would be apppreciated.
Well, the various Virus types are outlined in the TNE manual, and explained in
detail, along with Virus generation rules and ample scenarios in Vampire
Fleets.
I did a writeup of a Virus-infected biowarfare research ship, but I can't find
it right now. I think, though that Jeff Zeitlin has it up on the Trav e-zine.
Bruce Johnson
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:51:36 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Suitcase Nukes...
"Mark F. Cook" <markc@peak.org> wrote
> Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com> writes:
> >I have some vague memories of what
> >might be best described as a "nuclear satchel charge".
> Not only do they exist, they're in the hands of terrorists!!
> he had conducted a study of the
> Russian military's accounting for its nuclear weapons, and found that the
> military had lost track of 84 suitcase-sized nuclear bombs, any one of
> which could kill up to 100,000 people.
> Sleep well everyone.
How many year are suitcase nukes good for before radioactive
decay means they would need 'topping off' with fresh material?
If your nuke is going to expire next year anyway you might as
well use it while you have it, right. :)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:22:44 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
In mail you write:
>> ObTrav: What kind of support weapons do jump troops carry IYTU?
>
> IMTU their support carries them - they use starships :)
Yeah. And ship mounted weapons can give some pretty impressive fire
support.
I recall someone who'd served in Nam telling a bunch of us about
calling for fire support, and having a bit of trouble getting any. They
had to do a bit of hunting as most of the nearby stuff was already
busy.
Then they connected him to some guy whose vioce sounded a bit funny. He
gave the guy the co-ordinates (his unit was pinned down on a hill by a
*lot* of NVA on a hill facing them).
The guy on the radio checked the co-ordinates and said "Ok, it's on the
way". And there was this long pause. Just as he was about to ask what
the hell was wrong the other hill "disappeared" and their hill did a
lot of shaking.
Seems they'd patched him thru to the New Jersey... <g>
Now consider that for some types of "kinetic kill" ortillery it will
take from 3 minutes to 15 minutes between launch and impact. And that
they will *start* at the level of a shell from a battlesjhip's main
guns and go *up*, well into the nuclear range.
In Traveller, in a similar situation, the other hill might *really*
disappear.
It's that sort of thing that would tend to discourage the enemy from
grouping troops or having fixed positions.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:34:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
In mail you write:
> John Snead wrote :-
>>> Tasmanian driver's licences have a section in which you indicate
>>> whether or not you are willing to donate organs. If you don't fill
>>> that section in, they assume you are willing to donate.
>>
>> Cool! Is there any data on how this affects donor availability?
>
> Australia has the second worst donation rate in the OECD.
> This legislation has had no influence whatsoever (in any case, with donor
> rates of <10 per million, Tasmania doesn't contribute very much to the
> Australian pool, with a total pop of ~350K).
>
> In my experience, it doesn't matter about the driver's licence declaration.
> The relatives of the potential organ donor tend to override it, and there is
> nothing that can be done about this.
This is why the driver's license forms here in Oregon make a point of
telling you that even if you ask them to mark you as a donor, there's
other paperwork you'll need to get done to ensure that it really *does*
happen.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:33:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
In mail you write:
>> As for myself, I'll see if I can find a reliable firm to freeze me.
>
> Well, you could always do both -- be frozen after having organs
> removed. After all, any medical science good enough to repair all the
> cell damage from freezing should easily be able to grow you a new
> heart, lung and kidney or two :)
Some folks have just had their *head* frozen, using similar logic.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:06:59 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deep Space Refulling
- --part1_fb.11c360ca.27c033e3_boundary
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Here's a players point of view on all that mumbo jumbo: Ok,so what skill
do I check to see if I can accomplish this?? No, I don't care about all your
stats,I just wanna know if I can do it. So what skill do I check??
Shaggy3D
- --part1_fb.11c360ca.27c033e3_boundary
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&nbsp;Here's a players point of view on all that mumbo jumbo: Ok,so what skill
do I check to see if I can accomplish this?? No, I don't care about all your
stats,I just wanna know if I can do it. So what skill do I check??
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:09:14 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: A Bertram Chandler
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Oh yea,that's what I want to read, science fiction written in the 50's and
60's. Oh yeah, I gotta have those books! NOT!!
Shaggy3D
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&nbsp;Oh yea,that's what I want to read, science fiction written in the 50's and
60's. Oh yeah, I gotta have those books! NOT!!
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_40.7912ce4.27c0346a_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:14:28 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Terry Carlino wrote:
> My idea has always been the opposite. Since only the very rich and powerful
> are going to be involved in any but the simplest interaction with commerce
> law efficiency is not a goal.
It is if you're rich and powerful. Time is money.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:16:43 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
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LMMFSAOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo
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LMMFSAOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:20:42 -0600
From: "Steve (Bloo) Daniels" <sdaniels@playnet.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> >From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
> "Funny. I've always thought that operetta, light or heavy, would be
> worse than being in the real Stalag 13."
>
> Bloo,
> Think "Pirates of Penzance" or "HMS Pinafore" rather than "Carmen".
> Light, frothy, and above all fun. The charecter od Schultz alone begs to be
> brought to the stage.
I was thinking of those. <shudder>
"I am the very model of a - BANG BANG BANG!"
;-)
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:22:10 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Updated TML roster?
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Oh god, they want personal info. Should I give it to them?? (No Shaggy,
don't do it. You know they're only out to get you!!) SHUT UP!!! No, not you
folks. I was talking to the voice in my head that makes me paranoid. Sorry.
Shaggy3D
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&nbsp;Oh god, they want personal info. Should I give it to them?? (No Shaggy,
don't do it. You know they're only out to get you!!) SHUT UP!!! No, not you
folks. I was talking to the voice in my head that makes me paranoid. Sorry.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:16:58 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Starship Bunking (was: Re: Civility and Politeness)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
> "Being an old Navy dude, when I design warships I use the half bunk
for
>the common crew, the bunk for the CPO and junior officer berthing (the
>latter is referred to as a "bunk room" and may house up to six JOs),
>double-occupancy small staterooms for O-3s and O-4s, and single-occupancy
>staterooms for O-5s and above. The captain, and XO get single, large
>staterooms, as do any flag officer embarked, his chief of staff, and the
>airwing (spacewing?) commander, should the ship carry fighters or attack
>craft."
>
Being an old Navy dude I never put anyone in bunkrooms. The living
conditions are barbaric and I would hope that an elite fighting force like
the IN will have given up treating their most important asset in such a way
millennia ago. There is no reason to have bunkrooms. The addition of privacy
walls/doors can allow small cabins to be built in the same space. Privacy is
mostly a matter of mental attitude. The thinnest walls when combined with a
privacy door substantially increases livability, without other averse
impacts.
As proof of my statements I give you the following evidence. As a PO1 I
served aboard an Adams Class destroyer in the 1980's. While part of a NATO
task group it was my pleasure to visit a German Adams Class destroyer, built
in the same U.S. shipyard, but to German specs. With a crew of almost the
same size Petty Officers resided in six man staterooms. Individuals had over
three times the personal storage space that I had. The messing facilities
were segmented so that there was a separate lounge facility for the crew. We
had a lounge, but it was always locked and only used for "official"
functions. The supply officer begrudged the First Class Mess, a tiny closet
sized room smaller than my kitchen. (This benefit for senior Petty Officers
has gone the way of the dinosaur, at Petty Officers First Class are asked to
take on more and more of the duties of Chief Petty Officers, who are
themselves taking on many of the duties that use to be done by Junior
Officers, who are now days to busy working for a 'Perfect' career, rather
than doing things like seeing to the needs of their men or learning their
trade, how to conduct Naval Warfare.)
All in all the only difference was that the living spaces of the German
Adams Class Destroyer were better laid out. It took no more space in the
ship's overall design. It was more comfortable a place to live and work.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:23:46 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
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A/S/L :: 37/frozen stiff/cryo tank
Shaggy3D
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A/S/L :: 37/frozen stiff/cryo tank
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:28:40 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Xboat List
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The TNE guys fled?? YAAYYYYY!!! Lets hear it for the CT and MT guys!!!
WOOHOO!!
Shaggy3D
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The TNE guys fled?? YAAYYYYY!!! Lets hear it for the CT and MT guys!!!
WOOHOO!!
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:33:40 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Nasty cargo bays...
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Ok,what the heck is a groat?? LOL.
Shaggy3D
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&nbsp;Ok,what the heck is a groat?? LOL.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:35:18 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Updated TML roster?
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(Don't do it Shaggy. You know they'll come and get you!!) SHUT UP!!
Oh,sorry folks.
Shaggy3D
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&nbsp;(Don't do it Shaggy. You know they'll come and get you!!) SHUT UP!!
Oh,sorry folks.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:36:29 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: TGOOs
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Ok,TOG is Terran Overlord Government,right?? So what's TEG and TGOO???
Shaggy3D
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&nbsp;Ok,TOG is Terran Overlord Government,right?? So what's TEG and TGOO???
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:37:53 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
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So not only do I have a reason to hate Mondays,I now have a reason to hate
Tuesdays too. Cool!!
Shaggy3D
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&nbsp;So not only do I have a reason to hate Mondays,I now have a reason to hate
Tuesdays too. Cool!!
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:38:05 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
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So not only do I have a reason to hate Mondays,I now have a reason to hate
Tuesdays too. Cool!!
Shaggy3D
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&nbsp;So not only do I have a reason to hate Mondays,I now have a reason to hate
Tuesdays too. Cool!!
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:43:56 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
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The heck with a translation. I just wanna know if i'm first, second, or
third born and do I inherit anything??
Shaggy3D
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&nbsp;The heck with a translation. I just wanna know if i'm first, second, or
third born and do I inherit anything??
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:47:59 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Forms of address: a rebuttal
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Sir???????????? Not in my campaign. You'd get shot for sure. LOL.
Shaggy3D
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Sir???????????? Not in my campaign. You'd get shot for sure. LOL.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:50:01 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
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Ok, WHO or WHAT are the "Old Ones"??????
Shaggy3D
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&nbsp;Ok, WHO or WHAT are the "Old Ones"??????
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:31:47 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: [TML] What's in a name? (was: Deep Space Jumps)
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Day 1 :: I'm a pirate captain and my wife calls me Schmoopy in public.
Day 2 :: There's a malfunction in an airlock and said wife dies a horrible
deep space death.
Day 3 :: We dock and I pay a visit to that buxom blonde in the starport
bar.
Shaggy3D
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&nbsp;Day 1 :: I'm a pirate captain and my wife calls me Schmoopy in public.
&nbsp;&nbsp;Day 2 :: There's a malfunction in an airlock and said wife dies a horrible
deep space death.
&nbsp;&nbsp;Day 3 :: We dock and I pay a visit to that buxom blonde in the starport
bar.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:43:44 +1300
From: "Frank G. Pitt" <frankie@mundens.gen.nz>
Subject: RE: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Robert O'Connor wrote :
> Hopefully they'll have the problem of delayed post cardiopulmonary bypass
> cognitive impairment licked by the time you're thawed.
> A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
It may be worse than that.
There has been some research (sorry. I can't remember the ref) that
corpsicles will _never_ be able to be revived successfully, unless they are
kept "clinically alive" during the entire process.
Supposedly, what makes you "you" is stored in your neural network. This
network is dependant on regular "refresh" like computer memory chips. What
this "refresh" time is varies, but it implied that anyone frozen for over a
month would be effectively a vegetable.
Once your brain's electrical activity stops, what is "you" will start
degradng, because it relies on that activity to maintain it's state.
Of course, this means Traveller jumps at jump 5 & 6 push this theoretical
limit, so perhaps that's why low berths are risky....
But inherently, it doens't make Traveller low berth impossible, just longer
term cryogenics.
It also implies that heavy use of low berth, especially for long jump
distances could lead to degradation of your mind.
This leads me to think of the cyberpunk idea of "downloading" your mind as a
backup before being frozen, and the interesting story possibilities inherent
in tha
"Sorry sir, your body has been revived, but there's been a storage failure
and we've lost your mind"
"Gnggh?"
.............
"Hello, sir, are you awake? Yes, I know you can't see anything. Now don't
panic, there's been a minor malfunction, yor body has decomposed, and you
will have to remain an electronic entity while we find you a new one."
...........
"Dammit man, I was a _woman_ before I went into cold sleep ! This is _not_
my body, you've downloaded me into the wrong body !"
"I'm sorry sir, but if that had happened there would have been another
customer complaining about being downloaded into the wrong body, and that
hasn't happened."
Frankie
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3691
***********************************
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3692
Date: | 2/17/01 3:32:44 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Saturday, February 17 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3692
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Jump shadows and 100D limits-long (was Deep space jumps)
Re: A Bertram Chandler
Re: Nasty cargo bays...
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: TGOOs
The Old Ones
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Interesting spots to visit
Re: Interesting spots to visit
Re: A Bertram Chandler
RE: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Nasty cargo bays...
Ship habitability
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Ship habitability
RE: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: A Bertram Chandler
Re: A Bertram Chandler
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:44:39 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
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Hal :: I'm sorry Dave,but I can't do that.
Shaggy3D
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&nbsp;Hal :: I'm sorry Dave,but I can't do that.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:46:43 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Jump shadows and 100D limits-long (was Deep space jumps)
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
"I have thought this through, perhaps too much. I've started with the
descriptions of the Jump Drive, added a number of ideas presented here and
in other forums, stirred until I got something that I liked. The
result is a slightly tweaked system does not conform to all canon, or
necessarily to anyone else's description of how the jump drive works.
The changes I've made (and why):"
<snip - a large amount of good material you all should read>
Mr. Jone-Low,
Thank you for further explaining the workings of jump drive IYTU. I'm
mulling your idea over at the moment. Hopefully with the ideas and
viewpoints everyone had been kind enough to share, I'll be able to distill a
"theory" for MTU.
My leanings are to do as little tweaking to canon as possible, but I am
an not averse to it. Anyone following the deep space refueling thread will
learn that about me. I also don't seem to be in the majority camp when it
comes to colonization either, although the difference there is more a matter
of scope and not kind.
My current difficulties arise with the side effects of jump shadows.
SJG, and Mr. Miller, have both stated quite definitely that the distortion
of "whatever" a 1 km body exerts out to it's 100D limit is enough to
precipitate. This, plus the existence of jump shadows, requires a jump
navigator to envision a "ray" or "line" along which the ship will during
jump. He must plot the the length and end points of this line to avoid any
100D limits and, if he doesn't, his ship will not emerge where it is
supposed to.
Now the paradox comes into it. Just when is the 100D limit check
performed?
1) Is it during the entire time the ship is in jump? If so, then we could
move a 1 km asteroid to the ship's jump space entry point at any time during
the 168 hours a jump lasts and cause the ship to appear 100D from that body.
We would be able to "nail it's feet to the floor".
2) If the 100D limit check is performed at an instant before the jump
ends, then jump shadowing would not occur. A ship in jump would ignore any
100D limits until it was nearly ready to emerge from jump space.
3) What if, during a hasty jump, the navigator plots a poor jump that
crosses the 100D limit of a planetoid in the system he's leaving AND the
100D limit of a star in the system he's going to? Does the first limit
apply or the limit of the largest object? Either one you choose has
disturbing consequences.
4) Let's say it's the first limit. That would imply that the ship exists
a certain points at certain times along it's virtual "jump line"; although
both 100D limit violations exist, only the first one it "reaches" in jump
applies. The idea that the ship "moves" along the line would give us the
same trouble we had in paragraph #2; all 100D limits are ignored until the
ship reaches them.
5) If it's the 100D limit from the largest object, we'd be able to jump
out, ignoring the jump shadows of one object in the system we're leaving
just as long as we purposely intersected the jump shadow of a larger object
in the destination system. We could ignore a gas giant's shadow as long as
we "hit" a star's shadow.
If you think all of the above is confusing, I'm not even going to get
started on the fact that the bodies exerting the 100D limits move.
Well, after the screed above, I guess you can see why I'm having a
little trouble with jump, 100D limits, and jump shadows.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:51:02 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: A Bertram Chandler
ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> Oh yea,that's what I want to read, science fiction written in the
> 50's and 60's. Oh yeah, I gotta have those books! NOT!!
Somebody feed this person a healthy dose of Asimov... ;-)
Seriously, try reading "Caves of Steel" by Isaac Asimov. You might want
to read "I, Robot" as an introduction, but it is not required.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:53:29 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Nasty cargo bays...
ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> Ok,what the heck is a groat?? LOL.
A groat is an alien animal which, due to some amazing coincidence, is
remarkably similiar to a goat or sheep...
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 13:53:33 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
"Daniel Phelps" <phelpsd@gate.net>
>
> Was written:
>
> > One key reason for the shortage of donor organs is that
> > you can't buy and sell them. Of course demand exceeds supply,
> > since we're not at a market equilibrium price.
>
> The reply was:
>
> Would you really like to see that? That's about the only way I can
> see actual organlegging coming about. Poor people would be selling
> one of their kidneys on ebay and some of the urban legends about
> involuntary kidney removal would come true. IMHO some things should
> *never* be on the open market <shudder>.
>
> I hate to tell you this but I have heard that to a certain degree it
> is already happening in China. Condemned prisoners kept alive and
> fresh like fish in a pond to be executed to order on demand when a
> match is found for their major organs. It is a nice tidy source of
> income in certain quarters. Best of all it is justifiable under the
> prevailing state philosophy.
I'd heard that, but don't know if it's merely urban legend or true. I
also know that in China the death penalty is used for both political
prisoners and multiple felony offenders. The PRC may soon start
resembling something from some of the creeepier Nivien stories
about executions and organ donation.
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:55:09 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: TGOOs
ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> Ok,TOG is Terran Overlord Government,right?? So what's TEG and
> TGOO???
TEG : The Elder Gods
TGOO : The Great Old Ones
TOG : The Old Gods
It's a Lovecraft reference...
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 23:02:01 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: The Old Ones
ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> Ok, WHO or WHAT are the "Old Ones"??????
I think "what" is the most appropriate question here... ;-)
What do you know of the Call of Cthulhu? The Old Ones are ancient
monsters/gods/demons waiting to consume the world.
The following text is a text on one of them:
http://www.chaosium.com/chaosium/starry-wisdom/sw3-racesp.shtml
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:02:15 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
- --part1_c6.1177e10b.27c04ee7_boundary
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LMMFSAOSHFOC!!!!!!!!!!!! I just got done reading the sablecat site. AWESOME
reading!! THANK YOU so much for that. I neeeded to laugh a bit today.
Shaggy3D
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LMMFSAOSHFOC!!!!!!!!!!!! &nbsp;&nbsp;I just got done reading the sablecat site. AWESOME
reading!! THANK YOU so much for that. I neeeded to laugh a bit today.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_c6.1177e10b.27c04ee7_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:04:01 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
On 17 Feb 2001, at 11:22, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Now consider that for some types of "kinetic kill" ortillery it will
> take from 3 minutes to 15 minutes between launch and impact. And that
> they will *start* at the level of a shell from a battlesjhip's main
> guns and go *up*, well into the nuclear range.
>
> In Traveller, in a similar situation, the other hill might *really*
> disappear.
>
> It's that sort of thing that would tend to discourage the enemy from
> grouping troops or having fixed positions.
Especially if they that control the orbitals have meson guns.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:05:16 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Interesting spots to visit
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Between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv you say?? Man,I'm gonna buy my ticket first
thing tomorrow morning!! Oh yeah,I gotta see that,can't wait,oh yeah!!
Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Yea right. Sheesh.
Shaggy3D
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&nbsp;Between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv you say?? Man,I'm gonna buy my ticket first
thing tomorrow morning!! Oh yeah,I gotta see that,can't wait,oh yeah!!
Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Yea right. Sheesh.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_ba.11b58488.27c04f9c_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:08:23 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Interesting spots to visit
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Fort Knox,Kentucky?? Ok, now THAT i can do!!! Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.
Sheesh!!
Shaggy3D
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&nbsp;Fort Knox,Kentucky?? Ok, now THAT i can do!!! Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.
Sheesh!!
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
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------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:14:45 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: A Bertram Chandler
At 10:51 PM 2/17/01 +0100, you wrote:
>ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> > Oh yea,that's what I want to read, science fiction written in the
> > 50's and 60's. Oh yeah, I gotta have those books! NOT!!
>
>Somebody feed this person a healthy dose of Asimov... ;-)
I think "Clif" has returned...
Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
~Stephen Decatur
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 16:20:34 -0600
From: "Dave McKenna" <DMcKenna@Charter.net>
Subject: RE: Artillery falls from the sky...
How about particle accelerators over a vacuum/trace world? :-)
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Rupert Boleyn
> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 4:04 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
>
>
>
>
> On 17 Feb 2001, at 11:22, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
> > Now consider that for some types of "kinetic kill" ortillery it will
> > take from 3 minutes to 15 minutes between launch and
> impact. And that
> > they will *start* at the level of a shell from a battlesjhip's main
> > guns and go *up*, well into the nuclear range.
> >
> > In Traveller, in a similar situation, the other hill might *really*
> > disappear.
> >
> > It's that sort of thing that would tend to discourage the enemy from
> > grouping troops or having fixed positions.
>
> Especially if they that control the orbitals have meson guns.
>
>
>
> --
> "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
>
> A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:22:09 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Nasty cargo bays...
On 17 Feb 2001, at 22:53, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
> ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> > Ok,what the heck is a groat?? LOL.
>
> A groat is an alien animal which, due to some amazing coincidence, is
> remarkably similiar to a goat or sheep...
Or it's an old English silver coin of four pence value.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:23:02 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Ship habitability
Gentlemen,
Mr. Carlino pointed out some very good points in his last post. If I
hadn't inadvertantly deleted it, this message would be a reply to his.
In the admittedly few deckplans I drawn, I too placed the "blue shirt"
portion of the crew in something similar to the 6 or 9 man "suites" I saw
aboard the Tridents.
I do not think that the Imperial Navy, with an officer class full of
nobles, would really care two figs about the living conditions of the crew
beyond any established minmums. CT does imply during charecter generation
that some form of the draft is used in certain cases, attempts improve
living standards to entice and keep volunteers might be moot. Even the
USN's own dependence on an all volunteer force has not improved living
conditions for it's crews in any way.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:24:04 EST
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
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Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
Shaggy3D
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Are you people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Shaggy3D
- --part1_b4.1179d909.27c05404_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:12:53 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:15:04 +1100
> From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
> Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
>
> Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> > I think that we might be able to come up with a "theory" that could
> > consistantly explain all of this. It would have to take into account:
> >
> > 1) Mr. Miller's 3000km/parsec exit point navigational error rate.
> > 2) The 100D limit for jump entry.
> > 3) The 100D limit for jump exit.
> > 4) The precipitation effect.
> > 5) A solution to the 3-body problem you posed earlier.
> > 6) A way for the precipitation effect to occur, but without the
> > possibility of your "precipitator" working.
>
> 7) Jumps take 1 week (plus or minus 10%) under all circumstances.
>
> 1 is pretty easy, nearly any theory could have that sort of error.
> For number 2, we know that entering jump is possible within 100D --
> just unsafe. So this one is also not too bad.
>
> 3,6 and 7 are the hard ones to reconcile. I've ignored (3) IMTU,
> though it would be an interesting mental exercise to come up with a
> model that covers all three of these conditions.
>
> I suspect the solution to the 3-body problem would naturally follow
> from the nature of the model.
>
> > I going to put it throuigh the mental wringer over the weekend.
>
> Keep posting! (Well, unless others are getting sick of the topic)
>
The really difficult thing to reconcile about 7 is that the jump
velocity depends upon distance traveled. So, in theory, the ship (or the
jump effect) needs to know what's at the other end of the jump at the
instant the jump starts, and adjusts the velocity based on that fact.
Or, as you have suggested, the ship spends most of the time in the
transition between jump space and normal space, and relatively little in
the actual movement.
In thinking about this, I came up with the following theory. The Jump
consists of two parts: The creation of a pocket universe where the ship
can exist, and a wormhole or transition space which carries the ship to
it's destination. These two are fairly closely linked, but are distinct.
The pocket universe exists for a week, then collapses. The wormhole
determines the velocity of the ship through jump/real space.
The jump drive first creates a small pocket universe to encompass the
ship, then creates a hole in jump space which is closed behind the ship,
a wave effect which carries the ship in the pocket universe along. The
presence of a mass (the 100D limit) disrupts this wave effect in jump
space, and the ship basically stops at that point. But it still is in
the pocket universe waiting for it to collapse. And when the collapse
occurs the ship emerges into normal space. It is the velocity of the
wave which determines how far the ship can travel before it must return
to normal space.
In a normal jump, the higher the velocity of the jump wave, the more
stress on the pocket universe, requiring more fuel and power to maintain
it.
The navigator/pilot has some marginal control over the jump space wave
velocity so they can adjust how far they are planning on going. With a
micro jump, the ship emerges close to the 100D limit having spent most
of the time traveling, but much slower than on a longer jump.
If the navigator fails their navigation roll and the ship misses any
mass to stop the wave, the ship continues on after the pocket universe
collapses to emerge where ever it finds a mass to stop it, even in
another galaxy. The collapse of the pocket universe while still in the
wormhole means the death of the crew and passengers onboard the ship.
If the navigator fails their navigation roll the other way, the ship
stops part way through the journey due rock or planet, the pocket
universe is detached from both jump space and the real universe and
continue to drift as the universe around it continues to move in its own
way. When the pocket universe collapses, the ship could be almost
anywhere relative to the mass that stopped it, depending upon the
movement of the pocket universe, the mass, and any other local jump
space phenomena the GM feels like inflicting upon the players.
The jump space wave is sensitive to local masses, the attempt to create
one closer than 100D to a mass causes odd effects in the wave. Either
the fails to form at all, and the ship goes nowhere, or the wave takes
off in a random direction with a random velocity, or (when really close
the the mass) the wave takes off in several directions at once, pulling
the pocket universe and the ship apart with it.
If you don't like the precipitator requirement, reverse the attachment
between the pocket universe and the jump space wave That is the jump
space wave dissipates either upon hitting a 100D limit or upon the
collapse of the pocket universe. The navigator has some ability to
select the velocity of the wave and thus the distance traveled. In
either case the ship emerges where ever they are when the pocket
collapses a week later.
This, according to my jump space oriented logic, addresses all of the
concerns raised. Did I miss anything?
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:44:51 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Thom Jones-Low wrote:
> 1) The 100D limit is only a rule of thumb. The real limit is based
> around tidal acceleration and the amount of distortion of normal space
> by a near by mass.
Yes, I use this one too. Whenever you see me write "100D" in
reference to my Traveller universe, it means "distance at which tidal
acceleration is equivalent to that 100 diameters from Earth". For
really light planets like Saturn, it is really about 50D. Yes,
supergiant stars have the "100D" limit inside the star itself.
For purposes of list discussions on jump theory in general, I really
mean 100D since that's what published materials say.
>2) All jumps must end at the 100D limit (or distortion limit) of a
>mass.
[...]
>The emergence point is based upon 100D limit,
The 100D limit at what time? Start of the jump? End of the jump?
Middle of the jump? Time proportional to distance? Do you die if you
miss a 100D limit?
> 3) Since I like the idea of keeping Relativity more or less intact,
>I've chosen the option of allowing paradox in order to keep both FTL
>and Relativity.
Uh-oh. Good luck -- I've got 20 pages of notes (including a lot of
equations) to go part-way toward such a goal. Be prepared to have
this make a *big* difference to your campaign if the players ever find
out.
> Using the reactionless thrusters to accelerate to high velocities or
> to accelerate large masses has a tendency to tear up jump space over
> a large area making the jump drive unstable or unseable. Moving a
> large asteroid to drop it on a planet, not even at near c
> velocities, can close off an entire sub-sector, and using a ships
> boat as a near-c rock can affect a sector or more.
How about accelerating a 10,000-ton freighter to 1% of the speed of
light? This is standard operating procedure according to published
material in GT and MT. How fast is a 10,000-ton freighter allowed to
go, and what is that speed relative to?
I'm sure you're already aware that you can get time travel without
reactionless thrusters.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:55:30 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Thom Jones-Low wrote:
> When the pocket universe collapses, the ship could be almost
> anywhere relative to the mass that stopped it, depending upon the
> movement of the pocket universe, the mass, and any other local jump
> space phenomena the GM feels like inflicting upon the players.
The end effect of this is pretty much the same as in my Travelelr
universe.
> This, according to my jump space oriented logic, addresses all
> of the concerns raised. Did I miss anything?
Only (3) -- the requirement that a ship cannot emerge within 100D of a
large mass. The same one I decided to ignore in designing my own
jumpspace theory.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:57:38 -0500
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
At 05:24 PM 2/17/01 -0500, you wrote:
>Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
Yep, now I'm certain, Clif has returned.
Kurt Feltenberger
kurt@blazenet.net
Morrow Project Campaign http://www.sol-3.net
WT-L Support Pages http://www.sol-3.net/wt-l
"To our Country! In her intercourse with foreign nations,
may she always be in the right, but our country, right or wrong!"
~Stephen Decatur
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:03:43 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Ship habitability
On 17 Feb 2001, at 22:23, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Gentlemen,
> Mr. Carlino pointed out some very good points in his last post. If I
> hadn't inadvertantly deleted it, this message would be a reply to his.
>
> In the admittedly few deckplans I drawn, I too placed the "blue shirt"
> portion of the crew in something similar to the 6 or 9 man "suites" I saw aboard
> the Tridents.
> I do not think that the Imperial Navy, with an officer class full of
> nobles, would really care two figs about the living conditions of the crew
> beyond any established minmums. CT does imply during charecter generation that
> some form of the draft is used in certain cases, attempts improve living
> standards to entice and keep volunteers might be moot. Even the USN's own
> dependence on an all volunteer force has not improved living conditions for it's
> crews in any way.
Further evidence of this attitude can be found in (IIRC) _Traders & Gunboats_
when it discusses why the Gazelles have their crew quarters the way they are.
It mentions that the IN had a morale problem, and the Gazelle's were designed
so that the ratings could be contained in the event of a mutiny.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:03:43 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Artillery falls from the sky...
On 17 Feb 2001, at 16:20, Dave McKenna wrote:
> How about particle accelerators over a vacuum/trace world? :-)
Good, but meson guns have an advantage when rooting out troops who have serious
overhead protection.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:22:26 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: A Bertram Chandler
In mail you write:
> Oh yea,that's what I want to read, science fiction written in the 50's
> and 60's. Oh yeah, I gotta have those books! NOT!!
I guess it's escaped your notice that Traveller is *intended* to
recreate the sort of SF that was *written* in the 50s and 60s.
So your comment ranks with putting down references to books set in the
Napoleonic Wars era on a list dedicated to games set in that same era.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:27:32 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: A Bertram Chandler
> In mail you write:
>
> Oh yea,that's what I want to read, science fiction written in the 50's
> and 60's. Oh yeah, I gotta have those books! NOT!!
Troll: (-1)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3692
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Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3692
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3693
Date: | 2/18/01 1:40:01 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Sunday, February 18 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3693
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Nasty cargo bays...
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Organ donation
RE: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Imperial Civil Courts
A Lucky Find?
RE: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
RE: A Lucky Find?
Re: A Lucky Find?
Re: Jump shadows and 100D limits-long (was Deep space jumps)
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: A Lucky Find?
Disappointment galore...
GURPS FAR TRADER question
New Software - Sector Regenerator
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: [TML] What's in a name? (was: Deep Space Jumps)
Re: A Lucky Find?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:28:37 -0800
From: "Kiri Aradia Morgan" <tiamat@tsoft.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Actually I'm the one who is having the shit bored out of me by someone who
posts, in HTML, inane little one or two line responses to every damn post on
the list. I suggest as respectfully as I can, in return to this comment--
that you find a life.
Kiri ^_^
-----Original Message-----
From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com <ComputerFoolish@aol.com>
To: traveller@lists.ient.com <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Date: Saturday, February 17, 2001 2:26 PM
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
Shaggy3D
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:38:26 -0600
From: "Dave McKenna" <DMcKenna@Charter.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
> Further evidence of this attitude can be found in (IIRC)
> _Traders & Gunboats_
> when it discusses why the Gazelles have their crew quarters
> the way they are.
> It mentions that the IN had a morale problem, and the
> Gazelle's were designed
> so that the ratings could be contained in the event of a mutiny.
Somewhat... the actual entry reads "the ship was designed at a time when
mutinies were a major threat to security. As a result, major bulkheads
break up the ship into distinct areas - some for crew members, some for
officers, and some common to both." ( & you do recall correctly). IMTU the
sentiment that gave rise to this design concern has been somewhat
ameliorated; I assume that Gazelle's are an older design.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 23:56:35 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
<original message>
"Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????"
<Kurt's response>
"Yep, now I'm certain, Clif has returned."
"I'm very new here, bit please don't tell me that the TML has a troll.
Please!??!"
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:31:16 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Nasty cargo bays...
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote
> On 17 Feb 2001, at 22:53, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
>
> > ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> > > Ok,what the heck is a groat?? LOL.
> >
> > A groat is an alien animal which, due to some amazing coincidence, is
> > remarkably similiar to a goat or sheep...
>
> Or it's an old English silver coin of four pence value.
Or it's a grain based food product, often made of buckwheat,
most commonly consumed as a breakfast cereal.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 13:32:35 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
On 17 Feb 2001, at 23:56, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> From: Kurt Feltenberger <kurt@blazenet.net>
> <original message>
> "Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????"
> <Kurt's response>
> "Yep, now I'm certain, Clif has returned."
>
>
>
> "I'm very new here, bit please don't tell me that the TML has a troll.
> Please!??!"
Not normally, just flamewars between regulars. :) This guy seems new, unless he
really is Clif.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:58:29 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Organ donation
Well, it looks like the data I found for organ donation in Tasmania
were misleading. They happened to cover the year with the highest
rate -- there were actually *no* organ donations last year, in 1998,
nor in 1996. One report shows that lower road accident deaths and
improved surgical procedures have more than halved the number of
candidates, but delays in accessing consent records are also a
problem.
ObTrav: Come on, delays in accessing records causing medical delays
and possibly an unneccesary death? In the 3I bureaucracy? You'd have
to be blind not to see an application to Traveller :)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:32:54 +1000
From: "Alan Bradley" <alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au>
Subject: RE: Imperial legal structures (was Trade Wars)
> From: Peter Trevor
> The 3I of year 0 seems quite different to the
> 3I of year 1100 ... either the Imperial Constitution was subject
> to revision at some point, or it faded into obscurity and disuse
> after a few centuries.
I tend to date the revision of the Imperial Constitution to the Civil War
period, although there were usurping emperors like Cleon IV before then,
who probably found it convenient to ignore most of it. In addition, the
early attempts to Syleanise the worlds the Imperium absorbed tended to
break down after a while. I'm not sure exactly when that would have
stopped, although I suspect that the Julian War would have brought it to an
end if it had not occurred already.
IMTU, I see Olav hault-Plankwell ripping up the old Constitution and
replacing it with a military dictatorship. Some of his rivals/successors
notionally restored it, but were unable to make it stick. (My model of the
Civil War has the first few years being a power struggle between the
"Fleet" and "Moot" factions. Olav was the first of the "Fleet" leaders, of
course. The "Moot" faction were constitutional loyalists, at least in
theory. Eventually the factions broke down into more or less apolitical
warlordism.)
Arbellatra essentially created a new Constitution that was a compromise
between the old Constitution and the desire of the frontier nobility to
restore the coherence of the Imperium (by de-emphasising the Domains and so
on).
YMMV.
Alan Bradley
alanb@elf.brisnet.org.au
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:25:01 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
On 17 Feb 2001, at 17:24, ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set to delete.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 19:42:10 -0800
From: "Pronto" <pronto_r031@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
> On 17 Feb 2001, at 17:24, ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
>
> For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set to
delete.
>
>
This is my third. <Ker-Plonk!>
Pronto
AKA Brian Taylor
Next year, at Burning Man!
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:42:39 +1100
From: Ian or Katts <ikjw@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts
>From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
>
>- --part1_b4.1179d909.27c05404_boundary
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
>
> Shaggy3D
First of all, please send stuff as flat text. Some of us prefer to avoid using malware to read email.
Secondly, if it bores you, just go to the next post.
Thirdly, Imperial Civil Courts can be close to the hearts of PCs.
For example, lets assume a merc unit has a contract that involves a performance bonus if they take
the capital of the side that didnt hire them.
Lets assume that halfway through the campaign, the enemy moves the capital from Nuevo Roma to
Nueva Ravenna.
The merc unit proceeds to take Neuvo Roma.
Do they get a performance bonus ?
Well, that depends.
If the hiring side refuses to pay them the bonus, they could go to court.
What do they have that the noble in charge of the case wants ? Well, see, maybe she needs a little
task done, and, well, you know how it all works.
Ian Whitchurch
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:15:20 +1100
From: "Jeffrey Michael Malone" <NarellePark@bigpond.com>
Subject: A Lucky Find?
Just went into my FLGS in Canberra, and picked up a copy of Far Trader,
which appears to have been personally signed by Steve Jackson (?!) Could any
of TGOOs comment on the likelihood of this?
On another matter:
OGTHROD AI'F
GEB'L - EE'H
YOG-SOTHOTH
'NGAH'NG AI'Y
ZHRO!
If any keyboards get clogged with fine bluish-gray dust (does this count as
keyboard kill? literally?) then I shall fear the worst...
J.M.M.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 23:40:56 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: RE: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Kurt wrote:
>Yep, now I'm certain, Clif has returned.
Although Clif certainly had many faults, he was not quite as absurd as this
silly bastard. Clif would present an idea and then get really pissed when
other listmembers would shoot it through with holes. This fellow seems
barely capable of generating a coherent sentence, let alone coming up with
an idea worthy of having holes shot through it.
------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:32:58 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: A Lucky Find?
Signed by Steve Jackson? If it's an honest to goodness signature, i.e. you
can see indentation of the paper from pen, etc., then that's pretty damn
weird. Steve & Loren'll sign the comp copies that are given to artists &
writers, but not production run copies. I'd check with the FLGS owner to
see where that came from. May have belonged to somebody else who got his
sig at a convention or something, then later sold it to the FLGS.
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Michael
> Malone
> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 8:15 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: A Lucky Find?
>
>
> Just went into my FLGS in Canberra, and picked up a copy of Far Trader,
> which appears to have been personally signed by Steve Jackson
> (?!) Could any
> of TGOOs comment on the likelihood of this?
>
> On another matter:
>
> OGTHROD AI'F
> GEB'L - EE'H
> YOG-SOTHOTH
> 'NGAH'NG AI'Y
> ZHRO!
>
> If any keyboards get clogged with fine bluish-gray dust (does
> this count as
> keyboard kill? literally?) then I shall fear the worst...
>
> J.M.M.
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:46:15 +1100
From: "Jeffrey Michael Malone" <NarellePark@bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?
The signature in question is in red pen ink (it is indented in the page),
and reads:
"Another win, Tom!
Steve Jackson"
Below the signature is a roughly drawn 'eye in the pyramid' with a smile on
it.
Like I said, I wonder whether this is the genuine article, so to speak.
FLGS got it from a wholesaler somewhere in Australia, who would have got it
from SJ Games.
J.M.M.
- ----- Original Message -----
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 3:32 PM
Subject: RE: A Lucky Find?
> Signed by Steve Jackson? If it's an honest to goodness signature, i.e.
you
> can see indentation of the paper from pen, etc., then that's pretty damn
> weird. Steve & Loren'll sign the comp copies that are given to artists &
> writers, but not production run copies. I'd check with the FLGS owner to
> see where that came from. May have belonged to somebody else who got his
> sig at a convention or something, then later sold it to the FLGS.
>
> Jesse
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Michael
> > Malone
> > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 8:15 PM
> > To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> > Subject: A Lucky Find?
> >
> >
> > Just went into my FLGS in Canberra, and picked up a copy of Far Trader,
> > which appears to have been personally signed by Steve Jackson
> > (?!) Could any
> > of TGOOs comment on the likelihood of this?
> >
> > On another matter:
> >
> > OGTHROD AI'F
> > GEB'L - EE'H
> > YOG-SOTHOTH
> > 'NGAH'NG AI'Y
> > ZHRO!
> >
> > If any keyboards get clogged with fine bluish-gray dust (does
> > this count as
> > keyboard kill? literally?) then I shall fear the worst...
> >
> > J.M.M.
> >
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 01:36:39 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Jump shadows and 100D limits-long (was Deep space jumps)
Hello Larsen,
You aren't the only one who has problems with the aspects of 100
diameters...
1) what happens when you are near a planetoid monitor? What about a ship
that is within 100 diameters of the nearest *ordinary* ship?
2) As it stands now, planets move. Doesn't that mean that for only a short
time, a shadow will exist as a planet blocks the way? What are the periods
of planets further out that may or may not get in the way?
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 01:43:27 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
> This, according to my jump space oriented logic, addresses all of the
>concerns raised. Did I miss anything?
Um Professor? <waving hand meekly>
Why is it possible for a ship to enter jumpspace inside a gravity gradient
that normally automatically preciptates a ship out of its destination? If
by entering into a pocket universe within say, 30 diameters, why don't I
fall back into normal space at say, 30.00001 diameters? At
30.0000000000000000000001 diamters, the "flux" is stronger than it would be
at say, 100.00 diameters. Something's fishy here... <oops, found my last
week's tunafish sandwich as a bookmark in my Physics 1001...>
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 00:55:58 -0600
From: Robert Gilson <rgilson@uswest.net>
Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?
Jeffrey Michael Malone wrote:
> The signature in question is in red pen ink (it is indented in the page),
> and reads:
>
> "Another win, Tom!
> Steve Jackson"
>
> Below the signature is a roughly drawn 'eye in the pyramid' with a smile on
> it.
>
> Like I said, I wonder whether this is the genuine article, so to speak.
> FLGS got it from a wholesaler somewhere in Australia, who would have got it
> from SJ Games.
>
> J.M.M.
>
Checking some of my comps, if the sig is barely readable and written in red pen
with a small pyramid
smiley then is sounds like you have a winner.
Robert Gilson
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 02:01:52 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: Disappointment galore...
Tonight, My wife declined gaming due to an ongoing illness that had been
running since Early January (sinus infection). As a result, the two
remaining gamers asked if we could do something other than the fantasy we
were engaging in (one player didn't want to game unless my wife were
there). As a result, we decided to try a sort of alternating GURPS fantasy
with GURPS TRAVELLER arrangement. My friend told me to get my program up
and running for generating cargoes for use later Saturday night. In a
total panic, I went to work to spend another 4 hours working on my program
to get the cargo generation working. I actually got it working but...
WE DIDN'T EVEN trade!
The two were interested in haggling over the wording of the ship's
articles and the formation of the Corporation. A party of 4 got together,
and used their investments and savings from 1) Scout Survey terms and 2)
Merchant service. A third individual worked as a Space Port Authority
worker who earned his papers as a starship engineer via a Study at Home
program. Never mind the fact that the man is close to 75 years of age
<grin>. He in turn knows another scout who is preparing to leave the Scout
service. (this was to be my wife's character who might join some time in
the future)
What did they do? Aside from drawing up GURPS characters from scratch with
no warning, and working out whether they wanted a Free Trader, an Empress
class ship, or an aging freighter - they finally, after thinking about
other aspects for a time, settled on buying a ship that had been the target
of a pirate/terrorist attack, driven off (by what?) and later rescued by a
Cortez Ship by the name of Jimmy Digriz. They took a ship that was 7 years
old, being sold as scrap for 2.8 million, and replaced her drives, spruced
up her internals, and redid the portion of hull that got blasted by missile
fire. The irony? They were thinking of calling themselves Pheonix
Shipping before they went shopping for a ship. Without intending it,
they've made the name of the ship match their name as a shipping agency...
Oh well, I at least have a little bit of time to improve my program
before it has to withstand abuse from the players.
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 02:07:34 -0500
From: hal@buffnet.net
Subject: GURPS FAR TRADER question
Hello Folks,
A few questions were popping into my head as I examined the rules with an
eye towards automating them.
Am I correct in assuming that every planet has a baseline production value
of cargoes to be shipped? I get the feeling that once I assign tonnage
ratings for a star, I should store that value permanently, and then use the
formulas they give in variable cargo rates, variable cargo tonnage shipped,
as well as variable passengers...
What about the tonnage values listed where they give a range of 1-5 tons
per *week* instead of per day?
Since cargo Terms of Shipping only affect the seller or the Buyer - why
does this chart have anything to do with ordinary cargo lots being shipped?
I'm not refering to the speculative cargo, I'm talking about the ordinary
"freight".
Hal
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:23:29 +1300
From: "Andrew Moffatt-Vallance" <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: New Software - Sector Regenerator
I got tired of the somewhat "suspect" nature of the sunbane sectors, so I've
written a little program to regenerate them. It keeps all the details from
Atlas of the Imperium and can keep the population and tech level data if
you want (this keeps the trade routes pretty much intact). You can find it
at my site at Downport. Its a win9x/NT program.
http://www.downport.com/amv/
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 02:31:42 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
> >Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
>
> Yep, now I'm certain, Clif has returned.
Who, or what, is a Clif?
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 02:33:10 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
I hate to reply with a "Me too" message... but, yeah, same here.
On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:28:37 -0800 "Kiri Aradia Morgan"
<tiamat@tsoft.com> writes:
> Actually I'm the one who is having the shit bored out of me by
> someone who
> posts, in HTML, inane little one or two line responses to every damn
> post on
> the list. I suggest as respectfully as I can, in return to this
> comment--
> that you find a life.
>
> Kiri ^_^
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ComputerFoolish@aol.com <ComputerFoolish@aol.com>
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com <traveller@lists.ient.com>
> Date: Saturday, February 17, 2001 2:26 PM
> Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
>
>
> Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
>
> Shaggy3D
>
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 02:34:00 -0500
From: knightsky@juno.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
> Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
>
> For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set
to delete.
>
Oh, if only Juno allowed for killfiles.
Perry
"In a war of nerves, your own arsenal can destroy you."
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 02:28:28 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
- --------------94B0480C6BA10B5F4C4B9750
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Score:
TML Legal Dream Team: 1
Shaggy3D: 0
bloo
ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
>
> Shaggy3D
- --------------94B0480C6BA10B5F4C4B9750
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
Score:
TML Legal Dream Team: 1
Shaggy3D: 0

bloo
&nbsp;

ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Are you
people done with boring the &amp;^%*$ out of us already?????

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
Shaggy3D</blockquote>
- --------------94B0480C6BA10B5F4C4B9750--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 02:29:43 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: [TML] What's in a name? (was: Deep Space Jumps)
Day 4: Buxom Blonde Pirate departs in her new ship with her
new Pirate Crew.
bloo
ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> Day 1 :: I'm a pirate captain and my wife calls me Schmoopy in
> public.
> Day 2 :: There's a malfunction in an airlock and said wife dies a
> horrible
> deep space death.
> Day 3 :: We dock and I pay a visit to that buxom blonde in the
> starport
> bar.
>
> Shaggy3D
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:36:10 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?
Jeffrey Michael Malone wrote:
> If any keyboards get clogged with fine bluish-gray dust (does this
> count as keyboard kill? literally?) then I shall fear the worst...
My right control key is not working. It's stuck.
Should I be worried?
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3693
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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 04:35:48 -0500 (EST)
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From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest)
To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com
Subject: Traveller-digest V1999 #3693
Reply-To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3694
Date: | 2/18/01 9:42:19 AM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Sunday, February 18 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3694
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
RE: FS Jet Bike (was: Re: Q-ship design)
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Deep Space Jumps
RE: A Lucky Find?
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3690
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re : Organ Donation
Re: A Lucky Find?
Re: Nasty cargo bays...
TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)
Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.
Indefinite life span
Vilani Vocabulary
Re: TGOOs
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: TGOOs
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
Re: Mystery
Re: TGOOs
Re: Jump shadows and 100D limits-long (was Deep space jumps)
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:40:32 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
> I'm very new here, bit please don't tell me that the TML has a
> troll. Please!??!
Not normally. The best method of dealing with this... person would be to
set up a filter to delete all mail from him (put him in the killfile).
If you need help with this, drop me a private mail and I'll gladly help
you. I'm killfiling him right now.
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:05:35 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: FS Jet Bike (was: Re: Q-ship design)
> On Fri, 16 Feb 2001, William Lane wrote:
>
> > Ummm...
> >
> > Can i use that jet bike please 8)
> >
> > With some of the crazy things people do now i could just
> see a GJBRA form.
> >
> > Guys whos sole purpose is to tinker with them, trick them
> out, Drink beer,
> > and boast about the fastest Jet Bike.
>
> Oh, yeah, flying bosozoku, just what every planet needs!
>
> (bosozoku="teenage biker gang members")
Ah, like Tetsuo and co from Akira?
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:01:53 +0400
From: Andrew Long <andylong@emirates.net.ae>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
on Sun, 18 Feb 2001 02:34:00 -0500, knightsky@juno.com wrote:
>
> > Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
> >
> > For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set
> to delete.
> >
>
> Oh, if only Juno allowed for killfiles.
>
Cry for those of us getting the Digest, too.
Andy
========================================
Andy Long AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae
========================================
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:34:20 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
hal@buffnet.net wrote:
> Why is it possible for a ship to enter jumpspace inside a gravity
> gradient that normally automatically preciptates a ship out of its
> destination?
My guess would be that the effects of gravity gradients are not
symmetric. For example, an increasing gravity gradient could have a
particular threshold at which instability sets in, while decreasing
gravity gradients (passing through the same value) do not lead to
instability.
In fact, my current research topic investigates such effects in
chemical reactions (except that the parameter is a temperature rather
than a gravity gradient).
> Something's fishy here...
Your physical intuition is excellent ;^)
If you plot phase-space diagrams of these sorts of systems, you often
get a "fish" shape at the critical values, where a stable loop (the
"body" of the fish) just passes through an unstable saddle point and
diverges (forming the "tail"). The "fish" even has an "eye" near the
front of the body, too, representing an unstable stationary point.
The technical term for such asymmetric behaviour in a dynamical system
is "hysteresis", and you should refer to the jump drive's behaviour in
such cases as "hysterical".
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:51:44 -0000
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
Subject: RE: A Lucky Find?
>
> Jeffrey Michael Malone wrote:
> > If any keyboards get clogged with fine bluish-gray dust (does this
> > count as keyboard kill? literally?) then I shall fear the worst...
>
> My right control key is not working. It's stuck.
>
> Should I be worried?
>
Consult your local Chemistry department about Essential Salts.
Dean
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 05:52:27 -0600
From: WDR <eviloverlord668@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3690
> In my experience, it doesn't matter about the driver's licence declaration.
> The relatives of the potential organ donor tend to override it, and there is
> nothing that can be done about this.
Unless you're resurrected later and can extract some high-tech vengence
(or a sorcerous lawsuit) from beyond the grave... :-)
WDR
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Vault/9327/main.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:29:23 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Tim Little wrote :-
<some inaccurate stats>
> However, donation of major organs requires that death occurs in a
> hospital under certain conditions, so
> it's still pretty uncommon for actual organ donation to occur even
> when the deceased has given permission.
A donor has to be brain dead. There are a number of physiological (plus one
other legal) criteria that need to be fulfilled as well.
Kidneys, corneas heart valves and bone are transplantable up to 24 hours
after circulation ceases.
Cadaveric kidney donation is not practised routinely in Australia.
Other organs are nowhere near this robust.
Leonard Erickson wrote :-
> This is why the driver's license forms here in Oregon make a point of
> telling you that even if you ask them to mark you as a donor, there's
> other paperwork you'll need to get done to ensure that it really
> *does* happen.
Yes, the consent forms for the operation.
I do not think that there is a jurisdiction in the world that allows an
'advance directive' like this.
Frank Pitt wrote :-
> There has been some research (sorry. I can't remember the ref) that
> corpsicles will _never_ be able to be revived successfully, unless
> they are kept "clinically alive" during the entire process.
Define 'clinically alive'.
Do you mean that a cardiac output is maintained (old criterion), or that
brain stem function is evident on testing (better)?
This is tricky.
During hypothermic arrest with cardiopulmonary bypass (CPB), there is a
minimal blood flow maintained by the pump, and all brain function has
apparently ceased (no EEG, no brain stem reflexes, etc).
> Supposedly, what makes you "you" is stored in your neural network.
> This network is dependant on regular "refresh" like computer memory
> chips. What this "refresh" time is varies, but it implied that anyone
> frozen for over a month would be effectively a vegetable.
OK. Signals need to be continually propagated through the network to
maintain the connections, otherwise they will degrade.
How?
The nerve cells concerned retract the redundant dendrites (axon?!) and
connect somewhere else, or die off (apoptosis). These take a few hours.
Both processes depend on the cell having a metabolism.
Cooling dramatically reduces metabolic rate.
If there is no metabolism, cell death can't happen via metabolically
dependent routes. If the temperature is low enough, the changes associated
with hypoxic (or other) cellular injury can't occur.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:37:19 +1100
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re : Organ Donation
Tim Little wrote :-
> One report shows that lower road accident deaths and
> improved surgical procedures have more than halved the number of
> candidates, but delays in accessing consent records are also a
> problem.
You are referring to effective prevention, prompt resuscitation and
improvements in neurosurgical technique.
There are delays in accessing driver's licence records if these become
relevant in obtaining consent for donation. This is rarely the case, at
least in New South Wales, the ACT and Queensland.
> ObTrav: Come on, delays in accessing records causing medical delays
> and possibly an unneccesary death?
From my experience, not getting medical records in a timely fashion has led
more often to the unnecessary prolongation of life, rather than the reverse.
For example, resuscitating people with disseminated malignancies is pretty
futile.
Robert O'Connor
Medico, Gamer
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 08:29:23 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?
> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 20:32:58 -0800
> From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
> Subject: RE: A Lucky Find?
>
> Signed by Steve Jackson? If it's an honest to goodness signature, i.e. you
> can see indentation of the paper from pen, etc., then that's pretty damn
> weird. Steve & Loren'll sign the comp copies that are given to artists &
> writers, but not production run copies. I'd check with the FLGS owner to
> see where that came from. May have belonged to somebody else who got his
> sig at a convention or something, then later sold it to the FLGS.
>
> Jesse
>
I'm guessing it is a Comp copy, probably intended to be given to Tom
Peters (one of the artists), and accidentally forwarded on to the
standard distribution. With the Comp copies of books I've gotten (for
being a playtester), they are signed by Steve (and one by Loren) and the
pyramid/eye, usually in red ink.
You could contact sjgames and see if they want their book back to
forward it onto the proper owner. Or you could simply enjoy the fact
that you got a special bonus.
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 08:59:54 -0500
From: "Anthony Colosetti" <acoloset@kent.edu>
Subject: Re: Nasty cargo bays...
Wow, I never thought it would happen, comedy seems to escape me at times,
but Dean you just got my keyboard...
Anthony Colosetti
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Jones, Dean" <Dean.Jones@fox-europe.com>
> Next up on Fox Interstellar Network: When Good Cargoes go Bad, f
> followed by When Groats Attack
>
> Dean
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 06:09:08 -0800
From: Roger Sanger <rodge@nwnexus.com>
Subject: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
I'll be sending out an updated For Sale list of my personal RPG collection (2500+ items) sometime next week. I've only inventoried about a third so far, so if there is anything in particular you are looking for, let me know, and I'll look for it as I'm catalogging the items.
Rodge
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 06:22:00 -0800
From: Roger Sanger <rodge@nwnexus.com>
Subject: Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)
> Bruce Johnson wrote:
> Ditto. If such a drug existed, it would be approved so fast it would make the
> makers of Viagra wonder who they didn't bribe properly...
If only it were that simple. There's a built-in problem in the testing of anagathics...
The problem is proving an anagathic "exists". That is, there's no way to know if it works in
humans, without conducting a longevity trial in which you would administer the drug to a bunch of
randomly selected persons and then wait for them all to die (while an equal-sized control group
takes a sugar pill placebo). The problem with this experimental model is that we'll all be dead
before the experiment is completed! BTW, such studies are underway. That's fine for future
generations, but you can kiss your own ass good bye.
Therefore, many people are taking the drug based on the research findings of animal experiments
(you only have to wait about 3 years for those to be completed). These people have become
self-selected guinea pigs. Who wants to be in the human longevity trial when there's a chance you
could be in the control group taking nothing more than sugar pills (to keep the experiment
"double-blind" to guard against the "placebo effect", neither the researchers nor the recipients
know who is getting the experimental drug nor who is getting the placebo).
Skipping the experiment is happening a lot nowadays, especially in cases of life-threatening
disease (AIDS patients for instance, rebelled against the FDA because they were only offered
access to newly discovered but yet-to-be-approved drugs by participating in experiments which
included placebo protocols, meaning that half of them didn't even get the treatment they
desired!). It's a trade-off between verifiable evidence and risk taking.
Though, if enough people take a risk, then demographic statistical analysis such as that used to
compare the effects of diet between different cultures can be utilized to measure the results --
but that's not how the approval process of the FDA works. :-(
And FDA approval isn't generally granted until after the human trials are completed. This is one
example of how red tape can kill.
Note that in my initial posting, I stated that the drug is "potentially as effective as the
anagathics in Traveller (which seems to peak out at about 150). We don't know yet how effective
this drug is on humans, but with it they have pushed the maximum life
span of rats to the equivalent of 140 years for a human."
Keep in mind that maximum life span is not the same as "average life span". The maximum (genetic)
life span of a species is how old the longest lived specimens of the species live. For humans,
that is about 110 years.
We won't know for sure how effective the drug is for at least another 100 years!
> However, dimly kicking around the back of my mind is seeing a newspaper
> article about some research into reproducing the effects of caloric
> restriction without the rigors of caloric restriction...
DHEA has been touted as being equally effective as caloric restriction, but that is not the drug
to which I was referring.
> >Note that telomeres are only part of the problem (referring to an earlier
> >post of yours).
>
> In fact don't they suspect now that the telomere shortening is a symptom of,
> not cause of aging? IIRC that recent studies with cloned mice have shown that
> clones do not, in fact necessarily have shorter lifespans.
I haven't hear that. Therefore, I'd be interested in reading up on it. Please tell us your
references..
In the meantime, I'll look for my references too. I initially planned on dealing with this topic
in a "future posting" covering anagathics in general, but I jumped the gun. :-)
BTW, does anyone know the origins of the word "anagathic"? I'm just curious. Did it come from a
sci-fi novel, or what?
Food for thought,
Rodge
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 06:23:27 -0800
From: Roger Sanger <rodge@nwnexus.com>
Subject: Re: Freezing, cloning, etc.
> Frank G. Pitt wrote:
>
> It may be worse than that [re: delayed post cardiopulmonary bypass cognitive impairment].
>
> There has been some research (sorry. I can't remember the ref) that
> corpsicles will _never_ be able to be revived successfully, unless they are
> kept "clinically alive" during the entire process.
>
> Supposedly, what makes you "you" is stored in your neural network. This
> network is dependant on regular "refresh" like computer memory chips. What
> this "refresh" time is varies, but it implied that anyone frozen for over a
> month would be effectively a vegetable.
I agree that degradation of stored electrical charges is a seemingly insurmountable problem. But, the "impossible" has been accomplished many times before (like sending a man to the moon).
I wonder, is the problem merely electrical, or is it electrochemical? Electrical potential (in this case, the potential to fire a nerve impulse) also resides in the synapses, dependent upon the specific neurotransmitters contained therein. If these neurochemicals are altered during the freezing or thawing processes, it could have a detrimental effect
on the patient's cognitive and autonomic functions. It is yet another obstacle to overcome.
> Once your brain's electrical activity stops, what is "you" will start
> degradng, because it relies on that activity to maintain it's state.
If I remember right, all chemical activity stops at absolute zero. Is there a temperature at which electrical activity stops as well?
> Of course, this means Traveller jumps at jump 5 & 6 push this theoretical
> limit, so perhaps that's why low berths are risky....
>
> But inherently, it doens't make Traveller low berth impossible, just longer
> term cryogenics.
>
> It also implies that heavy use of low berth, especially for long jump
> distances could lead to degradation of your mind.
I would expect, the lower the tech level, the greater the chance of this occurring.
But what form would such degradation take, in Traveller terms? Change in the character's stats? Loss of skill levels? Loss of sensory acuity? Medical problems (e.g., heart palpitations, partial paralysis such as droopy eyelids, etc.)?
> This leads me to think of the cyberpunk idea of "downloading" your mind as a
> backup before being frozen, and the interesting story possibilities inherent
> in tha
Downloading one's mind may entail, in order to measure the precise location and electrical and chemical potentials of every cell (or even every molecule) in the system, the systematic disassembling (destruction) of the brain in the process.
Food for thought,
Rodge
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 06:27:52 -0800
From: Roger Sanger <rodge@nwnexus.com>
Subject: Indefinite life span
If aging was cured, then the average life expectancy (before you were killed in an accident or caught a deadly disease) would be around 1800 years.
Food for thought,
Rodge
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:54:33 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Vilani Vocabulary
On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:21:33 -0500 (EST), GDWGAMES@aol.com (Loren Wiseman,
yes, _that_ Loren Wiseman) wrote:
>> While I'm at it, if "Ziru Sirka" means "Grand Empire of the Stars," what
>> does "Naasirka" mean?
>Bread pudding
Uh? I thought that was "Eneri" with a different set of tones from the
man's name?
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:54:36 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: TGOOs
On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 00:21:33 -0500 (EST), GDWGAMES@aol.com (Loren Wiseman,
yes, _that_ Loren Wiseman) wrote:
>When I first subscribed, I lurked for a while, and most of the list was taken
>up with the debate over whether or not I should be allowed to subscribe.
<grin> I remember that! I think we've grown up a bit since then...
When I subscribed, it was under a different address (@execnet.com), I got
my mail through a BBS rather than POPing it, the TML was at engrg.uwo.ca,
and I don't recall seeing bangpaths for addresses.
OTOH, there is no professionally-published Traveller material over my
signature. I guess that makes me merely a TLOO (...lesser...).
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:24:53 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 01:27:21 -0000 grote1731@hotmail.com (Larsen E. Whipsnade)
wrote:
>I'm in such bad shape, I'll have to donate my body to science fiction.
>
> Larsen
<SPLORT> roflmao!
Bruce Johnson
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:03:24 -0500
From: James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain <alasdair.maciain@snet.net>
Subject: Re: TGOOs
At 10:54 AM 2/18/01 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
> I don't recall seeing bangpaths for addresses.
??? What the heck is a "bangpath"? A hyperlink?
James
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:52:27 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3677
On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:50:01 EST ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
> Ok, WHO or WHAT are the "Old Ones"??????
>
> Shaggy3D
Things you don't want to mess with, from Lovecraft's stuff. Go read some of
it, this will all make much more sense then...
Bruce Johnson
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:51:07 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Mystery
In a message dated 18-Feb-01 3:40:01 AM Central Standard Time,
owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:46:15 +1100
> From: "Jeffrey Michael Malone" <NarellePark@bigpond.com>
> Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?
>
> The signature in question is in red pen ink (it is indented in the page),
> and reads:
>
> "Another win, Tom!
> Steve Jackson"
>
> Below the signature is a roughly drawn 'eye in the pyramid' with a smile on
> it.
>
> Like I said, I wonder whether this is the genuine article, so to speak.
> FLGS got it from a wholesaler somewhere in Australia, who would have got it
> from SJ Games.
>
Only thing I can figure is that:
A: autographed copy mailed to address that has changed or is undeliverable
for some reason
B: Carrier returns parcel to SJG
C: Parcel is opened by careless warehouse worker and book returned to stock
(in violation of policy -- RTS parcels are supposed to be investigated so the
customer gets his/her/its order -- in this case it should have come back to
me)
D: Book is later shipped out in another order to wholesaler.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:08:45 -0700
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
Subject: Re: TGOOs
On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 11:03:24 -0500 alasdair.maciain@snet.net (James Gilly /
Alasdair MacIain) wrote:
>At 10:54 AM 2/18/01 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>> I don't recall seeing bangpaths for addresses.
>
>??? What the heck is a "bangpath"? A hyperlink?
<shaky old man's voice>
"Why son, bangpaths were in the auld days, before this new-FANGled Sendmail
frippery, when we had to route our mail by hand, and weeee LIKED it!"
</shaky>
Bangpaths, so named for the 'bang' symbol '!' between the host names were used
in UUCP (Unix to Unix CoPy...a _very_ early newtork model) paths to route
mail.
for instance, if you wanted to send mail to me you wrote something like:
snet.net!worldnet.com!router.nsfnet.net!sdu.edu!arizona.edu!pharmacy
(and please, its been almost a decade since I actually wrote one out...I'm way
out of practice so this is likely wrong in the details!)
basically laying out the route the message was to take.
As can be imagined, this was relatively simple in the Dawn Age of the
Internet, when there were 6 IMPS and 4 hosts, and your IP address was '3', but
was rapidly and horribly difficult to do when any sort of network complexity
arose.
By the time I was on the internet (about '91 or so), these were mainly used to
route data from vax accounts (on our net, anyway) to internet mail routers, so
all you had to put in was a fixed bangpath, such as:
mybox!campusrouter!mailgate which forwarded the mail on to the end user
somewhere.
Bruce Johnson
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:14:51 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Jump shadows and 100D limits-long (was Deep space jumps)
From: hal@buffnet.net
"Hello Larsen,
You aren't the only one who has problems with the aspects of 100
diameters..."
Hal,
The entire problem has intrigued me evry since reading about it in
GT:Far Traders. The rationale behind it is simple and I'm surprised I had
never played it that way from the beginning. Chalk one up to the pros!
Forunately, I'm addicted to logic puzzles, they're the perfect divesion
during long airline trips. I've spent a bit of time setting up the
"givens"; with superb suggestions and timely help from both Mr. Jones-Low
and Mr. Little. I'm currently working my way through several "cases" and
feel that a resolution is near.
Unfortunately, I have been called away on an emergencey visit to a
client; they've got a suspect pressure vessel that needs to be examined.
Because of this, I haven't put much time in on the "puzzle". I fully expect
to soon come up with some sort of resolution to the 7 point cunumdrum I
posted a few days ago.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:15:58
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
At 05:24 PM 2/17/2001 EST, you wrote:
>Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
Oh, *forgive* us.. hoe dare we discuss something not of interest to you
(whoever the hell you may be.. I've never seen this address until recently.)
After all, the TML isn't a list for the discussion of Traveller in all its
aspects, but a place where the talented among us entertain and write
campaigns for the clueless. God forbid we should get into an area of
esoterica that is directly useful to every single member of the list!
On that note I demand that everyone stop the thread on cold sleep, because
I'm not interested! So there!
Here's a free clue: If you don't like a topic, ignore it. If you reply to
a message, quote a few lines so the rest of us can figure out what you are
responding to, and don't have to play guess the context. And finally, if
you want somebody to write messages tailored to your desires I will be
*happy* to do it...
... once your check clears.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
TML Great Old One, The Keeper of Penguins
Plague of the Traveller Riders of the Apocalypse
Chant "Gridlore" thrice to summon.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:25:54
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
At 02:31 AM 2/18/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>Who, or what, is a Clif?
Clif was a regular poster a few years back who had the unfortunate tendancy
to take everything personally. He had a few good ideas, and made some
interesting points, but Ghu help you if you disagreed with him.
He was, I beleive, only the second or third person to be suspended from the
list. Nowhere nearly as bad as Leroy (shudder).
Speaking of Leroy, we're getting a new computer soon, so I'm cleaning out
old files on this one. Seeing what I can save, condense, or dump. And I
found this post from the Leroy Era:
X-Sender: dberry@mail.hooked.net
X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.3 (16)
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 20:01:08 -0800
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: MST3K: Re: the uninitiated and flame wars
Sender: owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
Reply-To: traveller@MPGN.COM
In another post, someone mentioned the possibility of MSTing Traveller..
thought I'd start...
DR. FORRESTER: Bad Evening, toyboy! Tonight's Experiment is a little
message from Leroy entitled "The uninitiated and flame wars".. I'm sure
you'll find it.. painful.
JOEL: Gee, sirs.. we haven't recovered from "Traveller Malingering List"
Yet! Gypsy is still quoting long passages of Keith and stats from the WBH..
T.V's FRANK: Deal with it
<DR. FORRESTER presses the BUTTON>
JOEL, CROW, and TOM SERVO: We've got post-sign!!!!!
At 09:14 PM 11/11/97 -0700, Leroy wrote:
>On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 10:55:39 -0700
>it was ventured (insignificantly):
CROW: And answered incompetently
>>
>>Dom Mooney wrote:
>>
>>>I just received Traveller-digest V1997 #2075. As a result of its content
>>>(which none of us Europeans can really comment on yet) I would like to
>>>rename the Traveller Mailing List to the 'Starship Troopers Mailing List'
>>>or should that be 'flaming list'.
>>>
>>>Any objections?
>>
>>Better than flame wars about the TL of the RoM, I guess. <g>
>>
JOEL: Hey, there were two quotes there.. who wrote the other one?
TOM SERVO: Leroy's just trying to build the dramatic tension, Joel.. very
Hitchcockian!
CROW: Bless you.
>Well, I'm surprised that you don't know the *real* meaning of flame
>wars, but then, you couldn't see the RoM issue either. :)
TOM SERVO: Today in our sermon, the true meaning of flames..
JOEL: I think Leroy didn't appreciate the humor in the last comment..
CROW: In the immortal words of Watson: what was your first clue, Sherlock?
>Try tail of genji, maybe that'll help.
CROW: That's one obscure reference, a true sign of the Leroy post. Hhmm..
hasn't dropped any names yet..
TOM SERVO: Give him a paragraph, and he'll be telling us that he served as
Marc's personal aide in the Army.
> LOL :)
JOEL: I don't get it.
TOM SERVO: Doh! Joel, L*O*L, Laughing out loud.. and the other is an
emoticon of a smiling face.. lacking any ability to convey thought or
expression using the written English language, Leroy resorts to
near-manical over use of these handy little shortcuts in a desperate
attempt to tell us he is trying humor!
CROW: Still don't get it.
JOEL: Maybe he should take typing this semester.
TOM SERVO: Do you two realize who we are talking about?! this is Leroy
Guatney! He once had something published! He's been to William Keith's
house! He is the only mortal to tread the Earth that understands the stark
beauty that is -Emperor's Vehicles-!!!
<f/x: SERVO'S head explodes. JOEL quickly replaces it>
>J.P. and I always say, "Rule 86: you play ball with us and we ram the
>ball up your a**." :) {ObTrav: good tactic for NPCs to take from time
>to time.}
CROW: The part of J.P. played by Jimmy the Evil Sock Puppet.
JOEL: He's quoting W.E.B. Griffen there..
CROW: *Mis*quoting, my observant comrade.. from "The Brotherhood of War"
series. The motto of the 73rd Heavy Tank: You play ball with the 73rd, or
we ram the bat up your ass.
>And, since that makes me think of JP wisdom he wanted me to post, he
>suggested I needn't raise the TML (the other one) flag again--time takes
>care of _everything_. More LOL.
JOEL: Guys, do you think that J.P. might just be a disembodied brain?
CROW: Would explain his need to filter everything through Leroy..
>Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
> University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
TOM SERVO: Midterms available upon request!
Well, what did you think, sirs?
- --
Duugirashir Irebamenagiin gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/sylea.html
Inquisitor Maximus, Reformed Canon Church of Sylea
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3694
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3695
Date: | 2/18/01 12:51:16 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Sunday, February 18 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3695
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Indefinite life span
Re: Vilani Vocabulary
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Re: Indefinite life span
Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium
RE: A Lucky Find?
Speaking of Clif,
Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Re: Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Re: Speaking of Clif,
RE: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
OT RL Info on Internet copyright
Re: Speaking of Clif,
Re: Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)
Sathyos
Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:28:34
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Indefinite life span
At 06:27 AM 2/18/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>
>If aging was cured, then the average life expectancy (before you were
killed in an accident or caught a deadly disease) would be around 1800 years.
Interesting. Speaking as somebody with a dramatically *reduced* expected
life span (most HD patients don't make it past 50,) I'm in the "it's not
how long the life, it is the quality of that life.
I'd rather have a full, rewarding three score and ten than live for
millennia paranoid about disease or injury.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
Death is an experience best avoided, as it makes
reliable internet access difficult to obtain.
- Xaonon, in alt.atheism
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:33:20
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani Vocabulary
At 10:54 AM 2/18/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>>Bread pudding
>
>Uh? I thought that was "Eneri" with a different set of tones from the
>man's name?
Everything in Vilani means bread pudding. They *really* like bread pudding
there, and have a few hundred thousand varieties.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:41:42 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
From: "Robert O'Connor" <robocon@ozemail.com.au>
"If there is no metabolism, cell death can't happen via metabolically
dependent routes. If the temperature is low enough, the changes associated
with hypoxic (or other) cellular injury can't occur."
Mr. O'Connor,
I have been following this thread with great interest, especially your
posts to it. Your background and experiences give you the technical
perspective most of us lack, yet you can explain the very detailed medical
aspects of this problem without "dumbing" them down. As someone who has
been asked to explain the technical aspects of my field to intelligent
people who just happen to be unaware of them, your ability is no small feat.
My question to you concerns our hypothetical corpsicle's personality;
the part of hin that makes him who he is. I know that most research is
spotty and that the entire field is barely in it's infancy, but I've been
reading books by Penrose, Sacks, Jaynes, and their ilk. Thye've been
tackling the thorny problem of consciousness and, by association,
personality.
In my extreme layman's view, whatever it is the brain does to create
the "mind" relies on both "hardware" (the neural net) and "software" (the
electrical activity along, perhaps down to a quantum level). This viewpoint
is admittedly simplistic and could be horribly wrong.
Given the ability to "freeze" our low berth passenger without damaging
his cells, or "hardware", could you state your opinion as to whether the
process might upset his "software", or neural-electrical activity?
I have read, once again layman's versions, about how physical upsets
can result in dramatic psychological changes. An extreme case involved a
man working as a railway engineer in the mid 1800's here in the US. In a
explosives accident, he had a iron tamping bar drive through his head and
survived (our ancestors often exhibit a toughness beyond our comprehension).
The bar entered below the angle of his jaw, passed upward behind his face,
and exited through the top of his forehaed, leaving a pathway nearly 2.54cm
in diameter.
He survived, with no loss of vision, but had an extreme personality
change. Before, he had been a "Dr. Jekyll" and afterwards was A "Mr. Hyde"
of the first water. He eventually of drink after touring for years with a
sideshow; exhibiting the dent in his forehead and iron bar.
I don't know exactly which portions of his brain were affected by the
bar's passage, but he didn't behave as if he had been given a lobotomy.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:43:58 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu>
>On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 01:27:21 -0000 grote1731@hotmail.com (Larsen E.
>Whipsnade)
>wrote:
>
> >I'm in such bad shape, I'll have to donate my body to science fiction.
> >
> > Larsen
>
>
><SPLORT> roflmao!
>
>Bruce Johnson
Oooh, oooh, oooh! Is this my first keyboard kill? Might I too be on
the oh-so-long path to exalted ace status?
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:51:00 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
From: Roger Sanger <rodge@nwnexus.com>
"I'll be sending out an updated For Sale list of my personal RPG
collection (2500+ items) sometime next week."
Mr. Sanger,
May I recieve a copy of your list, please? I'm very iinterested in a
copy of a pre-Traveller RPG from GDW that concerned "Three Musketeer" style
role playing. The name escapes me at the moment.
If my memory serves me, it was quick, simple, and extremely fun, just
the thing to give a nephew for his "intro" to the genre. I've already
"corrupted" him into joining the ranks of wargamers with severla of the old
Microgame titles. He can't wait to "push" the pieces when I visit. Part of
my Christmas gift ot him was AH's "Dionsaurs of the Lost World", making my
sister's eyes roll.
Thank you,
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:07:16 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Indefinite life span
>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
"I'd rather have a full, rewarding three score and ten than live for
millennia paranoid about disease or injury."
This topic was explored very well by Swift in "Gulliver's Travels". He
came across a group known as "struldbrugs", later used by Mr. Niven, that
never died. Unfortunately, they still aged, becoming increasingly
physically decrepit and senile as the decades passed. The birth of one into
a family was viewed as a calamity and not a blessing.
Swift was in turn expoundinmg on a Greek myth of a similar vein.
I, for one, must vehemently agree with Mr. Berry on this account.
After seeing a parent linger on physically long after the cancer had
destroyed those portions of his brain that made him "him", I have now have
a living will and other mechanisms in place to ensure that I'll shuffle off
the mortal coil with some dignity and while still in possession of my
faculties.
These people who feverishly cling to life long past any ability to
enjoy or participate it in amaze me. They reduce themselves to potted
plants; pruned, weeded, fed, and occasionally parked in the sun, and have
none of the interactions that make us human. They are to be pitied.
Larsen
P.S. If you can find an unexpuurgerated version of Gulliver's Travels, it's
well worth your time. It is not a kiddie story by any stretch.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:15 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
In-Reply-To: <F75sheGwAoHFzuULbBG0000a1ea@hotmail.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
Mr. Whipsnade is seeking a copy of FLASHING BLADES. Excellent game, and if
he wants I'll see if I can dig out the scenarios I've written for it :-)
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:31:53
From: "Michael McKeown" <mmckeown67@hotmail.com>
Subject: Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium
Sorry to post this to the list but I have one on Ebay that I'm looking to
get rid of and I've had no bids. Maybe cause I did the listing very quickly.
I got it from an online used game dealer and I'm looking to get my money
back that's why the higher starting bid. Thanks.
Here's the URL.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=561025015
Mike
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:11:09 -0800
From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
Subject: RE: A Lucky Find?
The eye & pyramid was something I forgot to mention. Steve has signed each
of my comp copies like that. It seems to me that the copy was intended for
Tom Peters, another one of the artists who worked on the book (as was
already mentioned by Thom Jones-Low. I'd call yourself lucky to have a
unique piece for your collection. I'll check with Tom to make sure he got
his comp copy okay.
Best,
Jesse
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Michael
> Malone
> Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 9:46 PM
> To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> Subject: Re: A Lucky Find?
>
>
> The signature in question is in red pen ink (it is indented in the page),
> and reads:
>
> "Another win, Tom!
> Steve Jackson"
>
> Below the signature is a roughly drawn 'eye in the pyramid' with
> a smile on
> it.
>
> Like I said, I wonder whether this is the genuine article, so to speak.
> FLGS got it from a wholesaler somewhere in Australia, who would
> have got it
> from SJ Games.
>
> J.M.M.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jesse DeGraff <jdegraff@pacbell.net>
> To: <traveller@lists.ient.com>
> Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 3:32 PM
> Subject: RE: A Lucky Find?
>
>
> > Signed by Steve Jackson? If it's an honest to goodness signature, i.e.
> you
> > can see indentation of the paper from pen, etc., then that's pretty damn
> > weird. Steve & Loren'll sign the comp copies that are given to
> artists &
> > writers, but not production run copies. I'd check with the
> FLGS owner to
> > see where that came from. May have belonged to somebody else
> who got his
> > sig at a convention or something, then later sold it to the FLGS.
> >
> > Jesse
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
> > > [mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Jeffrey Michael
> > > Malone
> > > Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2001 8:15 PM
> > > To: traveller@lists.ient.com
> > > Subject: A Lucky Find?
> > >
> > >
> > > Just went into my FLGS in Canberra, and picked up a copy of
> Far Trader,
> > > which appears to have been personally signed by Steve Jackson
> > > (?!) Could any
> > > of TGOOs comment on the likelihood of this?
> > >
> > > On another matter:
> > >
> > > OGTHROD AI'F
> > > GEB'L - EE'H
> > > YOG-SOTHOTH
> > > 'NGAH'NG AI'Y
> > > ZHRO!
> > >
> > > If any keyboards get clogged with fine bluish-gray dust (does
> > > this count as
> > > keyboard kill? literally?) then I shall fear the worst...
> > >
> > > J.M.M.
> > >
> >
>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:56:57 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Speaking of Clif,
... has everyone for gotten that it's February? It's TIME, people!
Or is the Annual Near-C-Pirates/Hiroshima Morality tag-team flamefest
postponed this year?
Chuckles.
MJD
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:12:46 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
"Mr. Whipsnade is seeking a copy of FLASHING BLADES. Excellent game,
and if he wants I'll see if I can dig out the scenarios I've written for it
:-)"
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
Ms. Robertson,
Thank you so much for filling in for my spotty memory. I fear my
little grey cells are retiring well before the rest of my body. (sigh) The
title "Flashing Blades" didn't ring a bell with me though. Of course it has
been 20+ years and there is my aforementioned weary grey cells.
Is your copy of "Flashing Blades" written a a faux 17th century style?
It's one of the details I remember from the game I described. The
introduction went along the lines of:
"Blah-blah-blah; being in the main the adventures of a..."
It was that verbose and flowery 16th and 17th century writing style that
strangely enough seems to creep into my posts to the TML. Very strange
that...
The PCs choose regiments to join; each of which requires both a certain
social standing and a sum of money. Turns were a week in length and
involved gambling, carousing, wenching, dueling, and (if the PC was unlucky)
a military campaign. The only reason a PC would go on campaign, despite
their supposed commissions in a regiment, was the opportunity for loot or
glory. Both of those could help him advance his social standing.
I'm sure your scenarios are very interesting. I am currently toying
with the idea of detailing a world for the "Land Grab" on which the "code
duello" has been revived. If you don't mind a bit typing, could it be
possible to share your scenarios with me? I promise to thank everyone I've
shamelessly filched from if my Land Grab entry gets off the ground. With
the huge amount of filching I've done, the credits list might be longer than
the world entry however.
I remain, madame, your most humble and obedient servant,
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 10:41:07
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: Re: Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium
At 06:31 PM 2/18/2001, you wrote:
>Sorry to post this to the list but I have one on Ebay that I'm looking to
>get rid of and I've had no bids. Maybe cause I did the listing very quickly.
>I got it from an online used game dealer and I'm looking to get my money
>back that's why the higher starting bid. Thanks.
Good luck. "Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium" is one of the great
woofers of Traveller.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 13:27:04 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Rob Davenport wrote:
>On 16 Feb 2001, at 16:51, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
>,
>> My lack of up to date knowledge concerning Our Olde Game
convinced me
>> to add it's books and supplements to the reading pile stacked beside
the arm
>> chair in my den. Last night, I poured over everything I could find
>> regarding jump. In Gurps:Traveller I came across a few tidbits
concerning
>> jump shadows and jump precipitation. Please note, I am assuming that
OTU's
>> version of Grandfather, Mr. Miller, has given this his chop.
>
>Well, I suppose so, but I'll bet if/when he gets T5 out GT will be at
>best "alternative cannon".
>
>> Page 120 simply states that a body as small as 1km can cause a
ship
>> that passes within 100D of it to "fall" out of jump. However,
nothing
>> states that this is how ALL jumps end,; I mean that use of a body to
exit
>> jump space is required.
>
>It was my opinion from my reading that if a ship encountered the 100D
>limit of the target star, they'd precipitate out of jump, but it was
>not a requirement. The jump was calculated before engaging and the
>final destination point was fixed the moment the jump bubble formed.
>All you had to do then was wait out the penalizing week. I'm not sure
>there was any corresponding linear travel through n-space for the jump
- -
> just pop out, wait a week, pop in. Except once GT (or was it TNE/T4?)
>and jump shadowing I think that assumption mutated or something.
The jump masking (jump shadowing as you call it) idea first appears in
Journal otTAS No. 24, in an atricle "Jump Space" by MWM. Indicating that
the idea originates from CT. Reprinted by Steve Jackson's JTAS on
December 26, 2000.
"The perturbing effects of gravity preclude a ship from exiting jump
space within the same
distance. When ships are directed to exit jump space within a
gravity field, they are precipitated out of jump space at the edge of
the field instead."
And
"On the other hand, there seems to be a built-in safety feature for
ships trying to leave jump space within 100 diameters of a world. Ships
naturally precipitate out of jump as they near the 100-diameter limit."
This seems to apply to objects in the destination system only and only
very near the destination.
Marc Miller wrote on Sun, 4 Apr 1999 11:43:10 EDT to the TML.
" Astrogation. A jump must be planned before it is executed; this
planning is the duty of the astrogator. Planning a jump involved
plotting a straight line course from the jump point to the breakout
point.
Restrictions. Jump cannot take place within 100 diameters of body
(star, gas giant, world, planetoid, or even another ship) larger than
itself.
If a plotted course intersects a 100 diameter sphere around any object
larger than the ship, the ship is "precipitated out" of jump space."
And
"BREAKOUT
A ship may exit jump space in two ways: at or near the point planned
for, or at a point where the straight line course crosses a 100 diameter
sphere.
The Planned Breakout Point. The course plotted by the Astrogator may
include a predicted point for breakout. A successful jump will carry a
ship to that predicted breakout point within about 100,000 km. Breakout
points are commonly used in naval operations when maneuvers take ships
to locations relatively removed from astral bodies.
Natural Safeguards. The physics of jump space force a ship out of jump
space when it crosses the 100-Diameter Sphere. As a result, a ship
cannot exit jump space within a world, planetoid, star, or even another
ship."
This was noted as being draft material for T5. This could be
interpretided as including any intervening system. I hope it is
clarified in the T5 publication.
Charles R Hensley
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 13:51:40 +0000
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Thw game in question is called:
En Guarde
"Being in the main a game of the life and times of a gentalman
adventurer and his several companions"
"Larsen E. Whipsnade" wrote:
<<SNIPPED>>
>
> Ms. Robertson,
> Thank you so much for filling in for my spotty memory. I fear my
> little grey cells are retiring well before the rest of my body. (sigh) The
> title "Flashing Blades" didn't ring a bell with me though. Of course it has
> been 20+ years and there is my aforementioned weary grey cells.
> Is your copy of "Flashing Blades" written a a faux 17th century style?
> It's one of the details I remember from the game I described. The
> introduction went along the lines of:
> "Blah-blah-blah; being in the main the adventures of a..."
> It was that verbose and flowery 16th and 17th century writing style that
> strangely enough seems to creep into my posts to the TML. Very strange
> that...
> The PCs choose regiments to join; each of which requires both a certain
> social standing and a sum of money. Turns were a week in length and
> involved gambling, carousing, wenching, dueling, and (if the PC was unlucky)
> a military campaign. The only reason a PC would go on campaign, despite
> their supposed commissions in a regiment, was the opportunity for loot or
> glory. Both of those could help him advance his social standing.
> I'm sure your scenarios are very interesting. I am currently toying
> with the idea of detailing a world for the "Land Grab" on which the "code
> duello" has been revived. If you don't mind a bit typing, could it be
> possible to share your scenarios with me? I promise to thank everyone I've
> shamelessly filched from if my Land Grab entry gets off the ground. With
> the huge amount of filching I've done, the credits list might be longer than
> the world entry however.
>
> I remain, madame, your most humble and obedient servant,
> Larsen
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 13:49:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Clif,
On Sun, 18 Feb 2001, MJ Dougherty wrote:
> ... has everyone for gotten that it's February? It's TIME, people!
>
> Or is the Annual Near-C-Pirates/Hiroshima Morality tag-team flamefest
> postponed this year?
(Checks history book). No, sorry, I don't know anything about the time
some pirates hit Hiroshima with a Near-C rock, so I can't comment on the
morality of it.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:58:21 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: RE: Imperial Civil Courts (was re: Trade Wars)
Perry wrote:
>Who, or what, is a Clif?
Clif was a fellow who was around a few years back. He initially got into
some silly little digital brawl with one or two people on the list (if I
recall correctly, he was strongly and vociferously opposed to Mormonism).
Then, there was much talk about petitioning Rob Miracle to have this guy
booted, and some people disagreed. Then, after this virtual-donnybrook, he
calmed down and started to post more or less "normal" messages. Then, when
the members of the list refused to acknowledge his hidden genius, and
instead disagreed with (or suggested changes to) his ideas, he quickly
became angered and started flinging insults around, at everyone. He even
attacked those who had previously raised their voices to defend him because
they saw a lot of provocation being sent Clif's way (by listmembers who
should have known better).
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:01:16 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
Subject: RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Larsen (aka Mr. Whipsnade) wrote:
> Thank you so much for filling in for my spotty memory. I fear my
>little grey cells are retiring well before the rest of my body. (sigh) The
>title "Flashing Blades" didn't ring a bell with me though. Of course it
has
>been 20+ years and there is my aforementioned weary grey cells.
Are you thinking of, perhaps, "En Garde"? I've only heard mention of it,
I've never seen it or held it or anything, but it seems to be pretty close
to what you're describing.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:08:29 -0000
From: "Peter Scarrott" <peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: OT RL Info on Internet copyright
I'm sorry to blitz the list with this but I urgently need some real life
info.
Can anyone send me (off list I really don't want to get this flame war
running again) links to any sites that discuss or have FAQ's on Copyright,
especially in relation to the internet and websites. This is for a Law
degree student so any level of detail appreciated.
Many thanks in advance and sorry to waste bandwidth like this.
ObTrav : Everyone with a website: Have you got the Disclaimer and copyright
info in plain sight?
Peter
http://www.myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk (Trav & AD&D)
peter@myhelliconia.freeserve.co.uk
IMTU: tc+ tm tn++ t4- ru+ !3i+ c+ jt- au- ls ta- hi++ ith++ va+ as- so zh+
vi-
And life is harsh and rarely fair.
Never appeal to a man's 'better nature.' He may not have one.
Lazarus Long, Time Enough For Love (By Robert.Heinlan)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:11:51 -0600
From: eris@pcola.gulf.net
Subject: Re: Speaking of Clif,
On 02/18/01 at 01:49 PM, Gregory Carl Kettler <gckettle@midway.uchicago.edu> said:
>> Or is the Annual Near-C-Pirates/Hiroshima Morality tag-team flamefest
>> postponed this year?
>(Checks history book). No, sorry, I don't know anything about the
>time some pirates hit Hiroshima with a Near-C rock, so I can't
>comment on the morality of it.
Oh, is *that* what happened to Hiroshima? You mean our government has been lying to us all these years? Lying like that is *so* immoral!
There! Now can we say we've covered those topics for another six months? <g>
Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pcola.gulf.net using MR/2 ICE #245
http://www.crosswinds.net/~erisr
- -----------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:15:12 -0800
From: sneadj@mindspring.com
Subject: Re: Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)
Roger Sanger <rodge@nwnexus.com> wrote:
> The problem is proving an anagathic "exists". That is, there's no way
> to know if it works in humans, without conducting a longevity trial in
> which you would administer the drug to a bunch of randomly selected
> persons and then wait for them all to die (while an equal-sized
> control group takes a sugar pill placebo). The problem with this
> experimental model is that we'll all be dead before the experiment is
> completed! BTW, such studies are underway. That's fine for future
> generations, but you can kiss your own ass good bye.
>
> Therefore, many people are taking the drug based on the research
> findings of animal experiments (you only have to wait about 3 years
> for those to be completed). These people have become self-selected
> guinea pigs. Who wants to be in the human longevity trial when
> there's a chance you could be in the control group taking nothing more
> than sugar pills (to keep the experiment "double-blind" to guard
> against the "placebo effect", neither the researchers nor the
> recipients know who is getting the experimental drug nor who is
> getting the placebo).
<snip>
> Note that in my initial posting, I stated that the drug is
> "potentially as effective as the anagathics in Traveller (which seems
> to peak out at about 150). We don't know yet how effective this drug
> is on humans, but with it they have pushed the maximum life span of
> rats to the equivalent of 140 years for a human."
So, what drug is this? What's it called, where are their articles
about it?
- -John Snead sneadj@mindspring.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:12:25 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: Sathyos
Does anyone know if information on Sathyos (Solomani Rim/Banasdan 2911) has
been covered in canon? I want to pitch it as a Planetary Survey book. I
don't think it's ever been covered, but I don't have the extensive library
of Traveller magazines that many members of this list do. So is it
completely open or what?
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:43:32 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Timothy Little wrote:
>A) The 100D check is performed only at the end of the week, or
>B) The ship can drop into normal space inside a 100D limit.
>
>I chose B.
Marc Miller's JumpSpace article Explicity prevents "B"
"On the other hand, there seems to be a built-in safety feature for
ships trying to leave jump space within 100 diameters of a world. Ships
naturally precipitate out of jump as they near the 100-diameter limit."
Charles H
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3695
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3696
Date: | 2/18/01 3:01:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Sunday, February 18 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3696
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
RE: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
Re: Civility and Politeness.
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Q Ship Design
Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Flashing Blades...NOT
RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: Civility and Politeness.
RE: Imperial Civil Courts
RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
RE: Indefinite life span
Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Re: Indefinite life span
re: Speaking of Clif,
Re: OT RL Info on Internet copyright
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3695
Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3695
RE: Indefinite life span
RE: Ship habitability
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:46:44 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
> Frank G. Pitt wrote:
>
> It may be worse than that [re: delayed post cardiopulmonary bypass
cognitive impairment].
>
> There has been some research (sorry. I can't remember the ref) that
> corpsicles will _never_ be able to be revived successfully, unless they
are
> kept "clinically alive" during the entire process.
>
> Supposedly, what makes you "you" is stored in your neural network. This
> network is dependant on regular "refresh" like computer memory chips. What
> this "refresh" time is varies, but it implied that anyone frozen for over
a
> month would be effectively a vegetable.
This reminds me of a horror movie I once saw. People were frozen after death
with the hope of being revived. In the future science was able to repair all
the damage and revive the corpses. The problem was that the people were dead
and so of course had moved on to wherever people go when they're dead, if
anywhere. This being the case a malignant force (I don't remember if it was
supernatural or extraterrestrial) inhabited the living, but soulless bodies
ready to bring more of their kind to the world.
Not really the stuff of a Traveller campaign, but great fodder for a Horror
or Cthulhu game.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:03:08 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
James wrote:
><Snip a fascinating description of life on a target. (There are two
types
of ships - submarines and targets.)>
I have to disagree here. There are 3 types of ships: targets,
submarines, and submarine killers>
But crew quality and ship quality make a big difference between targets
and sub killers.
When I left on WestPac, I was on a sub killer, half way through the
cruise we became a target.
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:05:10 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
"A successful jump will carry a ship to that predicted breakout point
within about 100,000 km."
Mr. Hensley,
Thank you for the information and quotes concerning jump masking and
breakout. I'd been able to collect most of it from other sources, but the
last half of post contained information from Mr. Miller that I had either
not seen before or had forgotten.
The 100Kkm figure seems to be at variance with his other published work
saying that the breakout error is approximately 3000km/parsec.
I have put together a "logic grid" containing all published and am
currently testing a few propositions to see if any "fit".
Thanks again.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:23:55 +0000
From: Dominic Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Q Ship Design
At 15:06 -0500 15/2/01, "Andy Akins" <andyakins@earthlink.net> wrote:
>1. Thruster plates are relagated to "alternative" technology, replaced with
>HePLAR, which is a more realistic, reaction based drive system that requires
>fuel. I'm pretty sure this is a FF&S1 thing.
Yes - T4 has both HePLAR and Thruster plates available, or both if
you want a short duration acceleration boost... TNE dropped T Plates.
It's been debated before whether the HePLAR is any more realistic as
the exhaust velocity had to be pretty high.
>2. Hard point requirements for weapons gone.
Both.
>3. 100-ton jump displacement requirement gone.
Unsure whether T4 reinstated this - checks.... pg12 FFS2 - 'the
smallest hull that can safely enter jumpspace is 1,400 cubic metres'.
ie 100 dT using the TNE/T4 14m3 per dT figure.
>4. Repulsors gone.
Repulsors are in FFS2 but TL16.
>5. HEW (High energy weapons, plasma and fusion) gone.
Still available but ineffective at interstellar ranges.
>6. Effective small PAs (turrets, small bays) gone.
T4 added the circular tunnel PA IIRC which may well have reintroduced
the small mount.
>My favorite all time system, even with its
>flaws (and it has some) is High Guard 2nd Edition. I would _love_ to see a
>HG-like system that offered more options in the area of sensors, life
>support, and gizmos (sickbays, barracks, etc)...
Seconded - in fact, I use HG2 for my T4.x games.
Dom
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:09:07 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
From: "Doug C." <dougcr@mb.sympatico.ca>
"Thw game in question is called:
En Guarde
"Being in the main a game of the life and times of a gentalman adventurer
and his several companions"
Mr. C.,
Thank you sir! En garde it is! Being in the main that my weary littel
grey cells could not dredge up the info themselves.
Many thanks again!
Larsen; a not so gentlemanly adventurer with very few companions.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:06:34 -0000
From: "Charles Nicholas Walker" <cnw@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Flashing Blades...NOT
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
- ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C099EE.ACCF3220
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
In-Reply-to: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Sorry Megan I think you have the wrong Game, I think it is "En Guard" =
that Mr Whipsnade is looking for....
Nick.
Behold, his feet leave tracks in the sands of time,
and Death walks at his left hand...
UTUP.
0609-A666A667-5-5-2
In-Reply-To: <F75sheGwAoHFzuULbBG0000a1ea@hotmail.com>
Greetings dear hearts.
Mr. Whipsnade is seeking a copy of FLASHING BLADES. Excellent game, and =
if=20
he wants I'll see if I can dig out the scenarios I've written for it :-)
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
- ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C099EE.ACCF3220
Content-Type: text/html;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN">
<HEAD>
<META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.71.1712.3"' name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<DIV>
In-Reply-to: <A=20
href=3D"mailto:mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk">mcrobertson@cix.compulink=
.co.uk=20
(Megan Robertson)</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Sorry Megan I think you have the wrong Game, I think it is &quot;En =
Guard&quot; that&nbsp; Mr Whipsnade is looking for....</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Nick.</DIV>
<DIV>Behold,&nbsp; his feet leave tracks in the sands of time,
and =
Death=20
walks at his left hand...&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>UTUP.
0609-A666A667-5-5-2
In-Reply-To: &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:F75sheGwAoHFzuULbBG0000a1ea@hotmail.com">F75sheGwAoHFzuULb=
BG0000a1ea@hotmail.com&gt;
Greetings=20
dear hearts.
Mr. Whipsnade is seeking a copy of FLASHING BLADES.=20
Excellent game, and if
he wants I'll see if I can dig out the =
scenarios I've=20
written for it :-)
Hugs and=20
kisses,
Mexal.
&nbsp;</DIV>
- ------=_NextPart_000_000D_01C099EE.ACCF3220--
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:11:34 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
>Terry Carlino wrote:
>
>> My idea has always been the opposite. Since only the very rich and
powerful
> >are going to be involved in any but the simplest interaction with
commerce
> >law efficiency is not a goal.
>
>It is if you're rich and powerful. Time is money.
>
>bloo
Which is why if I'm rich and powerful and you're not justice will be swift.
But if I have an agenda, and my enemy, who is also rich and powerful has a
competing agenda, and the Duke is hesitant to choose between our positions,
for his own reasons, and then the some other Noble is involved because he
has interests too. Well more than half those people might consider pushing
off a decision as long as possible to be a good thing, especially if they
think they're going to lose. Restraint of Trade may not be involved. Indeed,
I could probably come up with cases in which a win against a company might
prevent a Megacorp from exploiting a market. If they can prevent the
Imperium from closing them down or turning the market over to someone else
they might stand to make a bundle.
I am not a lawyer and I don't know which branch of law you specialize in,
but I think we can both agree that in America some rich and powerful
companies have, in the past, seen dragging out a lawsuit until the suing
party died as a valid defense strategy. How many major companies contest
environmental rules to keep plants running as long as possible? They do this
to put off having to spend vastly greater sums of money than being in court
to fix the problems.
Just imagine digging through thousands of years of records to justify a
claim of land ownership. Especially if one side is using papers certified by
the First Imperium and the other, later deeds penned by the Imperial Court
in the Civil War period. Which has precedence? What if the originator was
appointed by a Noble whose position is historically unclear, due to the
rapid turnover of Barracks Emperors? What if a third party claims that they
have a claim based on rights given them during the Solomani Autonomous
Period? A thousand years of history could make for some interesting case
law.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:15:37 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Civility and Politeness.
Larsen wrote:
> Your rack was also your locker. The mattress, about 2" thick, sat
atop
>the locker's lid. The locker itself was 8-10" deep and divided into a
few
>compartments and a drawer. The rack measured about 6' by 2' and a
reading
>lamp hung above it. "Privacy" was provided by a set of curtains. You
had
>another locker, similar to the ones in your high school gym, for
additional
>storage.
> My division was fortunate to have our office directly below our
>berthing area. It was tucked between the two shafts and let us watch
TV,
>play games, write letters, etc. without bothering those asleep. We
were
>lucky to have it.
I don't remember the under bunk lockers being that big, 6" deep more
likely.
The stand up lockers were not big enough for issued coats, dress
uniforms, and semi-dress uniforms.
I was lucky, in that I was the only person onboard that was qualified to
work on the 60-400hz converters. Those spaces had a raised floor, which
I managed to build a locker in for my gaming stuff. very few people
would enter these spaces and those that did would not look under the
raised floor panels.
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:16:58 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Imperial Civil Courts
> On 17 Feb 2001, at 17:24, ComputerFoolish@aol.com wrote:
>
> > Are you people done with boring the &^%*$ out of us already?????
>
> For only the second time in my life, I have created a mail filter set to
delete.
>
>
Perhaps it should be mentioned that this is a subscribed list and that the
poster can be banned from the list. Meanwhile a mail filter is the way to
go. Let me add that I too have never had to filter posters from this list,
with a single exception. I trust this "ComputerFool" will move on once we've
all ignored him.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:21:33 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
>From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net>
"Are you thinking of, perhaps, "En Garde"? I've only heard mention of
it, I've never seen it or held it or anything, but it seems to be pretty
close to what you're describing."
Mr. Seamans,
Thank you, sir. It is "En Garde". I knew the kind members of this
list would help me rectify my cranial-rectal inversion.
The game was rather fast playing. Friends of mine would actually take
their turns while we ate lunch. Also thanks to it, the enrollment in the
club sport of fencing had an incredible jump for a semester. They actually
had to split up the classes due to a lack of foils.
Being young idiots, we continually tried to out do one another with
overly ornate and flowery modes of address, while attempting to slip sly
digs and jibes in amongst the flummery.
Oddly enough, that's exactly what some members of the list were
suspicious of me doing at first; raising the possibility that I was playing
the same "courteous insult" game here too. i would like to assure them
again that I am not.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:26:39 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Indefinite life span
"If aging was cured, then the average life expectancy (before you were
killed in an accident or caught a deadly disease) would be around 1800
years.
Food for thought,
Rodge"
Not that I'm disagreeing, but what is this number based upon? I can't even
imagine what it could be based upon. Structural breakdown of the body?
Insurance company actuary tables? Just asking.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:32:31 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Larsen wrote:
> I think that we might be able to come up with a "theory" that
could
> consistantly explain all of this. It would have to take into account:
>
> 1) Mr. Miller's 3000km/parsec exit point navigational error rate.
> 2) The 100D limit for jump entry.
> 3) The 100D limit for jump exit.
> 4) The precipitation effect.
> 5) A solution to the 3-body problem you posed earlier.
> 6) A way for the precipitation effect to occur, but without the
> possibility of your "precipitator" working.
1) is modified by quality of drive tuning and accuracy of computer. upto
x10 for each
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 15:58:22 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: Indefinite life span
Based on what?
Why not 1600 or 3600?
- -bloo
Roger Sanger wrote:
> If aging was cured, then the average life expectancy (before you were killed in an accident or caught a deadly disease) would be around 1800 years.
>
> Food for thought,
>
> Rodge
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:01:13 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: Speaking of Clif,
>... has everyone for gotten that it's February? It's TIME, people!
>
>Or is the Annual Near-C-Pirates/Hiroshima Morality tag-team flamefest
>postponed this year?
>
>Chuckles.
Sorry, Chuckles, we're doing alternating years now to save
energy. Have you prepped your essay on the TL of the ROM? :>
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:02:43 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: OT RL Info on Internet copyright
I suggest starting here:
http://www.loc.gov/copyright/
Websites are merely a different medium so it doesn't
matter if something is printed on paper or the web.
If you have a more detailed question, I'm sure that
myself or my colleagues on the TML Legal Dream
Team can point you to more focused information.
bloo
Peter Scarrott wrote:
> I'm sorry to blitz the list with this but I urgently need some real life
> info.
> Can anyone send me (off list I really don't want to get this flame war
> running again) links to any sites that discuss or have FAQ's on Copyright,
> especially in relation to the internet and websites. This is for a Law
> degree student so any level of detail appreciated.
> Many thanks in advance and sorry to waste bandwidth like this.
>
> ObTrav : Everyone with a website: Have you got the Disclaimer and copyright
> info in plain sight?
Copyright disclaimers aren't necessary. Nor is copyright notice.
Trademark disclaimers often are.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:14:28 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3695
In a message dated 18-Feb-01 2:51:16 PM Central Standard Time,
owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
> May I recieve a copy of your list, please? I'm very iinterested in a
> copy of a pre-Traveller RPG from GDW that concerned "Three Musketeer"
style
> role playing. The name escapes me at the moment.
En Garde. Early RPG, and unique for not requiring a GM.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:17:53 -0600
From: Steve Daniels <stevedaniels@portcaddo.com>
Subject: Re: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Terry Carlino wrote:
> Which is why if I'm rich and powerful and you're not justice will be swift.
What justice? You will do whatever you can get away with and I will
suffer unless the Duke or whoever protects me through
> But if I have an agenda, and my enemy, who is also rich and powerful has a
> competing agenda, and the Duke is hesitant to choose between our positions,
> for his own reasons, and then the some other Noble is involved because he
> has interests too.
The Duke IS the justice.
> I am not a lawyer and I don't know which branch of law you specialize in,
> but I think we can both agree that in America some rich and powerful
> companies have, in the past, seen dragging out a lawsuit until the suing
> party died as a valid defense strategy.
Sorry. We cannot agree on that. For one thing, the decedent's estate
and heirs have an interest. So death doesn't necessarily end anything.
Second, it isn't 'valid'. Drawing out a case for no legitimate reason is
contempt of court at the very least. Sure, some judges are lenient, and
sure, some cases are incredibly complex. But if you can't show reasonable
cause for delay, you'll be punished.
And fundamentally, this is a problem of the court system. In the 3I,
the courts exist only at the pleasure of the nobility. There are no
rules of stare decisis, i.e., no binding precedent. Time for appeals
can be limited or expanded by the noble in charge.
> How many major companies contest
> environmental rules to keep plants running as long as possible? They do this
> to put off having to spend vastly greater sums of money than being in court
> to fix the problems.
Usually they postpone things in the hope of settling the matter out of
court cheaply, or in the hopes that they'll make enough cash in the
short term to deal with their problems in the long term. Also, individual
directors may want to postpone things until they can take the golden
parachute out and let someone else deal with the problem.
> Just imagine digging through thousands of years of records to justify a
> claim of land ownership. Especially if one side is using papers certified by
> the First Imperium and the other, later deeds penned by the Imperial Court
> in the Civil War period. Which has precedence?
There is no precedence. Whatever the noble says. Including seizures
of your current land, regardless of whatever title you may claim.
Archduke Norris to Titled Owner of nice hunting land:
"Nice place you have here. Excuse me. Nice place *I* have here.
You have 30 seconds to leave forever."
In canon, there is very little evidence of any significant legal framework,
and particularly little that might resemble modern democratic systems.
bloo
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:14:43 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
>Gentlemen,
> Mr. Carlino pointed out some very good points in his last post. If I
>hadn't inadvertantly deleted it, this message would be a reply to his.
>
> In the admittedly few deckplans I drawn, I too placed the "blue shirt"
>portion of the crew in something similar to the 6 or 9 man "suites" I saw
>aboard the Tridents.
> I do not think that the Imperial Navy, with an officer class full of
>nobles, would really care two figs about the living conditions of the crew
>beyond any established minmums. CT does imply during charecter generation
>that some form of the draft is used in certain cases, attempts improve
>living standards to entice and keep volunteers might be moot. Even the
>USN's own dependence on an all volunteer force has not improved living
>conditions for it's crews in any way.
>
>
The USN's dependence on an all volunteer force is barely twenty years old.
The great problems that service is having in both retention and recruitment
are a result of their failure to improve living conditions for its crews up
until now. The IN has a thousand year tradition. USN personnel spend max 8
months on deployment (The present max is suppose to be 6 months, but in some
areas, amphibious assault ships, for example, shortages in vessels has
resulted in longer deployments.) I would expect the IN to spend literally
years on station, with fleets often deployed far from their bases, perhaps
even in different sectors. While I don't expect to see children onboard (ala
ST) I do expect, shall we say, more mature relationships than are allowed on
present day Naval vessels, provided the propriety of rank is observed. This
will require a reasonable amount of privacy.
And according to canon staterooms are the norm, not bunkrooms (at least as
described in HG.) I prefer this myself, as it shows a very different
attitude than the present USN, another way to avoid the 'yanks-in-space'
feel.
By the way while Tridents may indeed have 6-9 man berthing the typical
carrier or cruiser has 30-150 person berthing, which gives a completely
different environment. You can get to know 6-9 people. Getting to know 150
people when all are on different watches and work in different specialties
is difficult. It's like living at the Y. You can't leave your towel hanging
on the rack without worrying about somebody taking it. This doesn't even
cover the difficulty a senior petty officer has having to live among the
people (s)he supervises. It's like living in the same room as your kids.
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:24:29 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3695
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
"May I recieve a copy of your list, please? I'm very interested in a
copy of a pre-Traveller RPG from GDW that concerned "Three Musketeer"
style role playing. The name escapes me at the moment."
"En Garde. Early RPG, and unique for not requiring a GM."
LKW
Thank you sir.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:40:51 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Indefinite life span
>Not that I'm disagreeing, but what is this number based upon? I can't even
>imagine what it could be based upon. Structural breakdown of the body?
>Insurance company actuary tables? Just asking.
Most of these are based on actuarial tables and other studies of accidental
death. The key point is that accidents are essentially random, so a large
enough group has a "half-life". Unfortunately, you have to make certain
guesses about the rate at which accidents will increase or decrease -- for
example, are you the equivalent of a thirty year-old all your massively
extended life? (All those car accidents, etc.) Or are you more cautious
because you're more experienced? Lots of variables.
In one of my science-fictional universes, aging has been beaten, so I've
always been interested in different approaches to this. I've seen estimates
as low as 450 years if nothing but aging is stopped, and others pointing out
that "average lifespan" becomes a bit pointless when, given a large enough
group, someone will reach any arbitrary lifespan....
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 14:52:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
The U.S. Navy has always been an all-volunteer force. When you were
drafted, you were drafted into the Army, nothing else. You had to
voluntarily go into the Navy.
This isn't 18th century Britain with its press gangs, fella.
- --- Terry Carlino <carlino@home.com> wrote:
> The USN's dependence on an all volunteer force is barely twenty years
> old.
> The great problems that service is having in both retention and
> recruitment
> are a result of their failure to improve living conditions for its
> crews up
> until now. The IN has a thousand year tradition. USN personnel spend
> max 8
> months on deployment (The present max is suppose to be 6 months, but
> in some
> areas, amphibious assault ships, for example, shortages in vessels
> has
> resulted in longer deployments.) I would expect the IN to spend
> literally
> years on station, with fleets often deployed far from their bases,
> perhaps
> even in different sectors. While I don't expect to see children
> onboard (ala
> ST) I do expect, shall we say, more mature relationships than are
> allowed on
> present day Naval vessels, provided the propriety of rank is
> observed. This
> will require a reasonable amount of privacy.
>
> And according to canon staterooms are the norm, not bunkrooms (at
> least as
> described in HG.) I prefer this myself, as it shows a very different
> attitude than the present USN, another way to avoid the
> 'yanks-in-space'
> feel.
>
> By the way while Tridents may indeed have 6-9 man berthing the
> typical
> carrier or cruiser has 30-150 person berthing, which gives a
> completely
> different environment. You can get to know 6-9 people. Getting to
> know 150
> people when all are on different watches and work in different
> specialties
> is difficult. It's like living at the Y. You can't leave your towel
> hanging
> on the rack without worrying about somebody taking it. This doesn't
> even
> cover the difficulty a senior petty officer has having to live among
> the
> people (s)he supervises. It's like living in the same room as your
> kids.
>
>
>
> Terry C
> All that is Gold does not glitter
> Not all who travel are lost
>
>
>
=====
Gerry Harris
**********************************************************************************************
Æther Traveller — http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion — http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
**********************************************************************************************
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**********************************************************************************************
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------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3696
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3697
Date: | 2/18/01 4:20:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Sunday, February 18 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3697
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Interesting spots to visit
giving too much credit
Darrian names?
Re: Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)
Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
RE: Ship habitability
RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
Re: OT RL Info on Internet copyright
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Speaking of Clif,
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Indefinite life span
Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Deep Space Jumps
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:50:13 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: Re: Interesting spots to visit
Shaggy3D types out with at best, two fingers:
> Between Jerusalem and Tel Aviv you say?? Man,I'm gonna buy my ticket
> first
>thing tomorrow morning!! Oh yeah,I gotta see that,can't wait,oh yeah!!
>Jerusalem and Tel Aviv. Yea right.
>Sheesh.
This is an international mailing list with a lot of members in the high
tech business.
Tel Aviv is the home to a lot of high tech companies. There is a lot of
business travel there, even with the occasional car bomb going off.
Messages are posted to the list membership at large, not to you specifically.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
You sound reasonable ... time to up my medication
http://www.bigfoot.com/~urbin/
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:52:51 -0500
From: Mark Urbin <urbin@bigfoot.com>
Subject: giving too much credit
Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net> puts out into the Ether:
> > In mail you write:
> > Oh yea,that's what I want to read, science fiction written in the 50's
> > and 60's. Oh yeah, I gotta have those books! NOT!!
>
>Troll: (-1)
Trolls are usually more clever. This doesn't even reach the level of well
written chat script.
Looks more like natural ability just shining through...
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
www.urbin.net/EWW/ -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
"Driving a Hudson Hornet on the disinformation triple bypass: cruising for
burgers & garage sales. Hooks baited, lines entangled, roadkill cooked"
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:10:24 -0500
From: "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
Subject: Darrian names?
Is there a Darrian name list and/or language generator out there anywhere?
Turning my storage room upside down has failed to produce my Darrians Alien
Module....
Cheers,
Paul Drye
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:14:23 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Anagathics testing model (attn: Bruce Johnson)
Roger Sanger wrote:
> BTW, does anyone know the origins of the word "anagathic"? I'm just
> curious. Did it come from a sci-fi novel, or what?
James Blish used the term "antiagathics" in his "Cities in Flight"
series, starting 1953. It subsequently appeared in a number of other
works of science fiction. That's the earliest I've been able to track
it back. It doesn't appear to derive from any Latin or Greek roots.
I suspect the Traveller term "anagathics" derived from that, but you'd
have to ask the author to be sure, wouldn't you :)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:14 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
In-Reply-To: <F264vRn64cbI5YlrADJ0000bb3a@hotmail.com>
Greetings dear hearts, especially the one and only Mr Whipsnade.
Given your notes, you are after EN GARDE rather than FLASHING BLADES.
I'm writing a TRAVELLER scenario at the moment (or would be if I hadn't
just gone to the pub!) that involves a planet on which duelling is the
acceptable method of settling 'matters of honour'. It's for a UK
convention at the end of the month.
Not a 'landgrab' candidate, though, it's located in a sector I made up way
back in 1983, and have used as the setting for most of my games ever
since.
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal - Oh, if you want to be formal it's Doctor (the PhD sort, not the
medical kind) - but I prefer 'Mexal'.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:14:16 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
"I do expect, shall we say, more mature relationships than are allowed
on present day Naval vessels, provided the propriety of rank is observed.
This will require a reasonable amount of privacy."
Mr. Carlino,
I too would like to see a mature relationship between oficer and
enlisted aboard 3I naval vessels. I would have liked to see it aboard
vessels I served on.
But, I think that "wish" might be part of the culture you and I bring
to the game. Just because we want to be treated more like equals, doesn't
someone from another culture would want the same thing. The idea of
familiarity between a senior and junior or the fact that the senior might
actually defer to the junior in some case would people from some cultures on
Earth incredulous. They would no more expect that type of behavior to be
correct than you and I would think a mediaeval lord and peasent relationship
to be. They would find any attmepts to invite or cultivate familiarity
between senior and junior ranks to be impolite, scandalous, or just plain
worng.
The Imperium with it's "astronomical" number of cultures would be hard
pressed to create a one size fits all IN culture. Pournelle and Niven in
their "Mote" series illustrate the Empire of Man's fleet to be comprised of
unit's manned "culturally". Shipboard life aboard the russian cultured
"Lenin" is very different than how the western cultured crew onboard
"MacArthur" lives.
If their is an overarcing culture in the IN, it would belong to the
officer class and be instilled during their time at the Academies, NROTC, or
OCS. All canon refers to the 3I as being "cosmopolitian" (a nice pun), but
that the nobility maintains a culture of it's own that is fairly uniform
throughour the Imperium.
Considering the IN is supposed to be the preferred branch of the
military for nobles to serve in (none of the other branchs have the same
high social DM's for commissioning and advancement), I believe that the
culture of the Imperial nobility would be the cultutre of the IN's officer
class. The crew's culture would be that of wherever the ship was manned or
currently serves.
This culture of "officers=nobles" would help the 3I manage the wildly
diverse makeups of it's crews.
"...another way to avoid the 'yanks-in-space'feel."
I want to do that too. I also want to avoid the "western cultural
precepts" feel or the "industrial liberal democracy" feel also.
"By the way while Tridents may indeed have 6-9 man berthing the typical
carrier or cruiser has 30-150 person berthing, which gives a completely
different environment..."
Exactly. As much as I loathed the 42 man berthing compartment I lived
in for 4.5 years, after touring the Enterprise, I felt myself lucky to not
live with 150 or 200 men. I still wasn't as fortunate as the Trident crews
though.
One final idea of mine that made me lean towards 9 man "suites" rather
than 2 man staterooms; cleaning. Three men in a few hours were able to
clean our berthing and head each day sufficiently to pass inspection and
prevent (most) odors and disease.
If the crew were broken up into 2 man units, you'd lose 1/2 the crew
for a couple of hours or so each day cleaning their staterooms for the same
reasons. That time would be lost to any maintenance, training,
watchstanding, or other duties. Even the service crews required in HG2
wouldn't be enough for the job. Nine man "suites" means that only a ninth
of the crew lose hours that way. I don't think that robots would fit the
bill either.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:16:47 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: How Many Lawyers does it take to talk about Imperial Law?
>Terry Carlino wrote:
>
>> Which is why if I'm rich and powerful and you're not justice will be
swift.
>
>What justice? You will do whatever you can get away with and I will
>suffer unless the Duke or whoever protects me through
>
Up to a point I definitely agree. To quote the immortal lawman from
Highlander "We're not talking justice here, justice is what a lawyer gets
when the judge or jury takes his side."
There's got to be some kind of legal framework or Trade and Commerce would
grind to a halt. "Justice" in this case means the law is on my side. While
the Imperium might be a "government of men not laws" it pretends to have a
legal basis, else it would not bother to promulgate Edicts or have a Carter.
>> But if I have an agenda, and my enemy, who is also rich and powerful has
a
>> competing agenda, and the Duke is hesitant to choose between our
positions,
>> for his own reasons, and then the some other Noble is involved because he
>> has interests too.
>
>The Duke IS the justice.
>
Right, but he might have a few irons in the fire too. If he owns stock in
both companies the decision might not be an easy one. If his Wife owns stock
in one and he in the other domestic tranquility and personal gain might
conflict. He might need something from the third party and so want to put
off offending. Procrastination is often the answer to a problem, wait long
enough and it might go away.
>> I am not a lawyer and I don't know which branch of law you specialize in,
>> but I think we can both agree that in America some rich and powerful
>> companies have, in the past, seen dragging out a lawsuit until the suing
>> party died as a valid defense strategy.
>
>Sorry. We cannot agree on that. For one thing, the decedent's estate
>and heirs have an interest. So death doesn't necessarily end anything.
>Second, it isn't 'valid'. Drawing out a case for no legitimate reason is
>contempt of court at the very least. Sure, some judges are lenient, and
>sure, some cases are incredibly complex. But if you can't show reasonable
>cause for delay, you'll be punished.
If there are decedents and heirs. I never said it was "valid" only that it
happened. Some cases are tremendously complex even when the core matter is
extremely simple. And some things can be made more complex if you have
enough money to spend.
>
>And fundamentally, this is a problem of the court system. In the 3I,
>the courts exist only at the pleasure of the nobility. There are no
>rules of stare decisis, i.e., no binding precedent. Time for appeals
>can be limited or expanded by the noble in charge.
>
Exactly, and if the noble in charge believes the best way to handle the case
is to make it drag on then it will.
>> How many major companies contest
>> environmental rules to keep plants running as long as possible? They do
this
>> to put off having to spend vastly greater sums of money than being in
court
>> to fix the problems.
>
>Usually they postpone things in the hope of settling the matter out of
>court cheaply, or in the hopes that they'll make enough cash in the
>short term to deal with their problems in the long term. Also, individual
>directors may want to postpone things until they can take the golden
>parachute out and let someone else deal with the problem.
>
All valid points and pretty much what I meant.
>> Just imagine digging through thousands of years of records to justify a
>> claim of land ownership. Especially if one side is using papers certified
by
>> the First Imperium and the other, later deeds penned by the Imperial
Court
>> in the Civil War period. Which has precedence?
>
>There is no precedence. Whatever the noble says. Including seizures
>of your current land, regardless of whatever title you may claim.
>
>Archduke Norris to Titled Owner of nice hunting land:
> "Nice place you have here. Excuse me. Nice place *I* have here.
> You have 30 seconds to leave forever."
I do believe that the 3I legal system would not resemble modern democratic
systems. I do not believe that it is a system entirely based on whim.
Patents of nobility must have some meaning. If the Emperor grants Baron
Shagrii receives a fife of land by Imperial Patent and Count Rosebud can
take it away at a whim than the patent is worthless. Now perhaps Sir Boris's
10 km estate could be taken by the Archduke that knighted him, but some
Baron better not be able to or his patent is worthless.
>
>In canon, there is very little evidence of any significant legal framework,
>and particularly little that might resemble modern democratic systems.
>
>bloo
I do agree that there is very little evidence of the specific legal
framework of the 3I given in canon. I suspect that this was to give the GM
the most flexibility in dealing with this subject (as was done for
religion.) I am hoping that Loren will give at least general guidelines in
Nobles, at least in suggesting several possible legal systems for the Gm to
use.
As always I recommend Mark J. Young's series on law from Places to Go,
People to Be, the online gamer's magazine at:
http://ptgptb.humbug.org.au/index.html
It's in issues #9, 10 and 11. (There's a French Edition too, for those who
prefer.)
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:28:28 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: OT RL Info on Internet copyright
Steve Daniels wrote:
> Websites are merely a different medium so it doesn't
> matter if something is printed on paper or the web.
If you are lucky :-)
There is, since about a year or something, a *very* stupid law in
Sweden...
Basically, it is illegal to have any kind of personal information about
other people on a website without those persons' express permission.
No, I (technically) am not allowed to state on a webpage that I've been
to lectures held by Peter Hackman. I am also not allowed to list names
of my friends or classmates without getting an express permission from
each one of them.
Yes, I am allowed to circulate the same information on flyers and give
them to everyone I meet. I am even allowed to circulate flyers (and
write in newspapers) stating that I think that Mr. So-and-so is not fit
for official positions for various reasons.
Can you see the confusion caused by this? A lot of people turned
themselves in as a protest when the law was passed...
* Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm * Student at the university *
| jenry023@student.liu.se | of Linkoeping, Sweden |
| ICQ UIN: 3844745 | (computer science/tech.) |
* http://spacejens.dhs.org * 22 years old, male *
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:25:00 -0500
From: "Terry Carlino" <carlino@home.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
I knew many people in the 1970's who were "drafted by default" into the
Navy. The fault being that you could have 100% chance to carry a rifle
through a rice paddy or about 80% chance of spend your time doing Med
cruises rather than on coastal river patrol. Pick you specialty (which you
could do as a volunteer, but not as a drafty) and you could up that chance
of not going to a rice patty to 100%.
This was made possible by being able to enlist in the Navy if you got a
draft notice as long as you enlisted before your Army report date. In the
late '60's and early '70's up to 75% of the enlisted Navy was made up of
guys ducking an Army enlistment. Hey four years at sea was better than 6
months in country and a body bag.
(I was one of the 20%, I come from an old Navy family.)
Terry C
All that is Gold does not glitter
Not all who travel are lost
- -----Original Message-----
From: owner-traveller@lists.ient.com
[mailto:owner-traveller@lists.ient.com]On Behalf Of Gerry Harris
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2001 5:53 PM
To: traveller@lists.ient.com
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
The U.S. Navy has always been an all-volunteer force. When you were
drafted, you were drafted into the Army, nothing else. You had to
voluntarily go into the Navy.
This isn't 18th century Britain with its press gangs, fella.
- --- Terry Carlino <carlino@home.com> wrote:
> The USN's dependence on an all volunteer force is barely twenty years
> old.
> The great problems that service is having in both retention and
> recruitment
> are a result of their failure to improve living conditions for its
> crews up
> until now. The IN has a thousand year tradition. USN personnel spend
> max 8
> months on deployment (The present max is suppose to be 6 months, but
> in some
> areas, amphibious assault ships, for example, shortages in vessels
> has
> resulted in longer deployments.) I would expect the IN to spend
> literally
> years on station, with fleets often deployed far from their bases,
> perhaps
> even in different sectors. While I don't expect to see children
> onboard (ala
> ST) I do expect, shall we say, more mature relationships than are
> allowed on
> present day Naval vessels, provided the propriety of rank is
> observed. This
> will require a reasonable amount of privacy.
>
> And according to canon staterooms are the norm, not bunkrooms (at
> least as
> described in HG.) I prefer this myself, as it shows a very different
> attitude than the present USN, another way to avoid the
> 'yanks-in-space'
> feel.
>
> By the way while Tridents may indeed have 6-9 man berthing the
> typical
> carrier or cruiser has 30-150 person berthing, which gives a
> completely
> different environment. You can get to know 6-9 people. Getting to
> know 150
> people when all are on different watches and work in different
> specialties
> is difficult. It's like living at the Y. You can't leave your towel
> hanging
> on the rack without worrying about somebody taking it. This doesn't
> even
> cover the difficulty a senior petty officer has having to live among
> the
> people (s)he supervises. It's like living in the same room as your
> kids.
>
>
>
> Terry C
> All that is Gold does not glitter
> Not all who travel are lost
>
>
>
=====
Gerry Harris
****************************************************************************
******************
Æther Traveller - http://www.aethertraveller.com
Soldier's Companion -
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Galaxy/6316/Soldiers/soccomp1.html
****************************************************************************
******************
"Cry 'Havoc,' and let slip the dogs of war" - Antony, "Julius Caesar," Act
3, Scene 1
****************************************************************************
******************
__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:33:57 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
Gerry Harris wrote:
>The U.S. Navy has always been an all-volunteer force. When you were
>drafted, you were drafted into the Army, nothing else. You had to
>voluntarily go into the Navy.
>
>This isn't 18th century Britain with its press gangs, fella.
I believe that the draft during WW2 was an all-service draft. During
Vietanm, the Navy acted as a dodge to the draft, ie: someone drafted
into the army could get out of it if another service accepted him before
his appear date. Therefore the Navy had a larger number of "volunteers"
who otherwise would not have volunteered for service at all.
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:35:01 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
"The U.S. Navy has always been an all-volunteer force. When you were
drafted, you were drafted into the Army, nothing else. You had to
voluntarily go into the Navy."
Mr. Harris,
I believe that other during WW1 and WW2 plus a few years after, the
Navy has always been a volunteer force. The general improvement in crew
quality this led to was one of the reasons it was able to outfight the RN on
a unit by unit basis.
However for brief periods during both world wars (Bogart was drafted
into the Navy in WW1, so was Shemp of the 3 Stooges), draftees did make up a
portion of the crews.
The Navy DID recieve the benefit of increased manpower from the
post-WW2 draft though, albeit in an round about way. Anyone with a low
draft number or who didn't want to join the Army between being drafted and
having to report, would join the Navy instead. So the Navy enjoyed the
benfits of the draft without actually drafting a single soul.
The only reason these men were in the Navy was to avoid service in the
Army. Calling them "volunteers" would be a joke or an insult.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:41:17 -0600
From: "D. Smart" <dsmart@imagin.net>
Subject: Re: Speaking of Clif,
Lest someone gets the impression that Clif's posts were
completely worthless,
someone asked why some of us continue playing Traveller
after so many years.
He replied:
"We travel to try to outrun death, attempting to see all of
the sights
creation has to offer before the day comes that we can see
no more."
--- Clif
I firmly believe in always giving a person their due and
will stand up to
anyone who says Clif provided nothing of value to the TML.
As you can see,
not all his posts were worthless.
Just 99.99% of them were.
David
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:38:06 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
"The U.S. Navy has always been an all-volunteer force. When you were
drafted, you were drafted into the Army, nothing else. You had to
voluntarily go into the Navy."
Mr. Harris,
I believe that other during WW1 and WW2 plus a few years after, the
Navy has always been a volunteer force. The general improvement in crew
quality this led to was one of the reasons it was able to outfight the RN on
a unit by unit basis.
However for brief periods during both world wars (Bogart was drafted
into the Navy in WW1, so was Shemp of the 3 Stooges), draftees did make up a
portion of the crews.
The Navy DID recieve the benefit of increased manpower from the
post-WW2 draft though, albeit in an round about way. Anyone with a low
draft number or who didn't want to join the Army between being drafted and
having to report, would join the Navy instead. So the Navy enjoyed the
benfits of the draft without actually drafting a single soul.
The only reason these men were in the Navy was to avoid service in the
Army. Calling them "volunteers" would be a joke or an insult.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:46:17 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Indefinite life span
On Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 06:27:52AM -0800, Roger Sanger wrote:
> If aging was cured, then the average life expectancy (before you
> were killed in an accident or caught a deadly disease) would be
> around 1800 years.
The death rate for 25 year olds in the US was 0.14% per year, giving a
gross estimate of 700 years average lifespan if aging was fixed at 25.
(The only way I could get a 1800 year estimate was to take the death
rate for children aged between 1 and 15 in the US as a baseline)
However, this really is a gross estimate -- there are a lot of factors
that could either increase and decrease the death rate. Note that
this figure is based on a time of (relative) peace, health, and
plenty, in a rich country. The world average mortality in the 20-30
year age range is *much* higher than this.
You probably cannot count on any given society lasting well over 700
years without major upheaval at some time that dramatically increases
death rates. Wars, epidemics, economic or environmental collapse,
etc.
In the Traveller universe, this would seem to be particularly
relevant.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:53:26 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Charles R Hensley wrote:
> Marc Miller's JumpSpace article Explicity prevents "B"
>
> "On the other hand, there seems to be a built-in safety feature for
> ships trying to leave jump space within 100 diameters of a world. Ships
> naturally precipitate out of jump as they near the 100-diameter limit."
I'm quite aware of that. If you can come up with a solution that
matches everything Marc has said about Jumpspace, I'd love to hear it.
I couldn't.
However, my own model does actually match the wording here -- IMTU,
ships *do* precipitate out of jumpspace as they near the 100D limit.
The only problem is that it takes them a week to do finish doing so,
and hence the 100D limit may have moved in the meantime.
If they have matched orbital velocities with the object that
precipitates them, no problem. They'll emerge right on the edge of
the 100D limit, so it does provide a built-in safety feature. It's
only when the object is moving relative to them that they may end up
inside the 100D limit.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:54:06 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:05:10 -0000
> From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>
> From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
> "A successful jump will carry a ship to that predicted breakout point
> within about 100,000 km."
>
> Mr. Hensley,
> Thank you for the information and quotes concerning jump masking and
> breakout. I'd been able to collect most of it from other sources, but the
> last half of post contained information from Mr. Miller that I had either
> not seen before or had forgotten.
> The 100Kkm figure seems to be at variance with his other published work
> saying that the breakout error is approximately 3000km/parsec.
> I have put together a "logic grid" containing all published and am
> currently testing a few propositions to see if any "fit".
> Thanks again.
>
> Larsen
>
If you have not already, you really should subscribe to the online JTAS
(http://jtas.sjgames.com ) and read the entire article written by Marc
Miller. It forms the basis for all of our work, and knowing I don't have
to repeat it makes me feel better about describing how the details work.
In the "Jump Space" article, the accuracy of the jump drive is given as
1 part in 10 billion (or so), allowing a ship to target an area of about
3,000 km for a one parsec jump, with a larger area for a longer jump.
And this is with a well tuned drive and accurate navigation, lacking
which can increase the inaccuracy by a factor of 10. So a jump 3 with a
bad drive has an accuracy of 90,000 km. So I wouldn't consider the the
statements to be in conflict with each other, just describing more of
the extremes of the general case.
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:42:01 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:44:51 +1100
> From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
> Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>
> Thom Jones-Low wrote:
> >2) All jumps must end at the 100D limit (or distortion limit) of a
> >mass.
> [...]
> >The emergence point is based upon 100D limit,
>
> The 100D limit at what time? Start of the jump? End of the jump?
> Middle of the jump? Time proportional to distance? Do you die if you
> miss a 100D limit?
>
See my other post (you probably have) about how the jump drive works.
In general, Time proportional to distance. And if you miss the 100D
limit, it will kill you.
One thought you had was to shove a mass into the "path" of the jump to
stop an escaping ship. The problem is in the proportional case and for
an interstellar jump, a ship jumping from Earth orbit would pass Pluto
orbit (some 5 light hours away) in about 1 1/2 minutes after jump. So
interception becomes very difficult, if not impossible.
> > 3) Since I like the idea of keeping Relativity more or less intact,
> >I've chosen the option of allowing paradox in order to keep both FTL
> >and Relativity.
>
> Uh-oh. Good luck -- I've got 20 pages of notes (including a lot of
> equations) to go part-way toward such a goal. Be prepared to have
> this make a *big* difference to your campaign if the players ever find
> out.
>
I said I like the idea, but not wedded to it. And as you have
discovered, I don't have the background in Math or physics to be able to
prove how this works without getting lost.
Do you know one (or more) good introductory reference websites for
General Relativity?
> > Using the reactionless thrusters to accelerate to high velocities or
> > to accelerate large masses has a tendency to tear up jump space over
> > a large area making the jump drive unstable or unseable. Moving a
> > large asteroid to drop it on a planet, not even at near c
> > velocities, can close off an entire sub-sector, and using a ships
> > boat as a near-c rock can affect a sector or more.
>
> How about accelerating a 10,000-ton freighter to 1% of the speed of
> light? This is standard operating procedure according to published
> material in GT and MT. How fast is a 10,000-ton freighter allowed to
> go, and what is that speed relative to?
>
Do you have the references for the GT, other than the star jump masking
requirements in Far Trader? If you apply the Tidal forces changes, the
jump masking limit mostly go away. By my calculations the top speed
requirements of the ships now becomes less than 0.1% of the speed of
light.
The top speed is between 0.1% (517 km/s) and 1% (3,104 km/s) of the
speed of light. Not very high, but perhaps fugable.
The speed is relative (in theory) to the ship in the other system who
is going to try and jump back to catch you before you leave. Given that
planetary orbital velocity is between 5 km/s and 50 km/s, and most
stellar relative motion is on the order of 10 km/s (IIRC), the velocity
is relative to everything in the both affected star systems without
really having a fixed frame of reference.
> I'm sure you're already aware that you can get time travel without
> reactionless thrusters.
>
Yes. The task of accelerating a to 1% the speed of light without the
use of reactionless thrusters is very much harder however.
>
> Only (3) -- the requirement that a ship cannot emerge within 100D of a
> large mass. The same one I decided to ignore in designing my own
> jumpspace theory.
>
Opps. Your are correct, and I ignore this requirement as well. You can
extend the theory to cover this instance by having the pocket universe
be pushed through jump space by the motion of the mass in real space.
That is as long as the pocket universe exists, it is shoved outside of
the 100D limit by the action of the tidal forces. The only way to
overcome this would be to have four (or more) masses on a collision
course at the time of the emergence. And at this point I'm not sure what
would happen.
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3697
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3698
Date: | 2/18/01 7:27:50 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Sunday, February 18 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3698
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Re: Indefinite life span
Re: OT RL Info on Internet copyright
I'm running a campaign...
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3695
Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
an off topic thank you
Re: I'm running a campaign...
Re: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Indefinite life span
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Indefinite life span
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3690
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:43:15 -0500
From: Thom Jones-Low <tjoneslo@together.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
> Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 01:43:27 -0500
> From: hal@buffnet.net
> Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
>
> > This, according to my jump space oriented logic, addresses all of the
> >concerns raised. Did I miss anything?
>
> Um Professor? <waving hand meekly>
>
> Why is it possible for a ship to enter jumpspace inside a gravity gradient
> that normally automatically preciptates a ship out of its destination? If
> by entering into a pocket universe within say, 30 diameters, why don't I
> fall back into normal space at say, 30.00001 diameters? At
> 30.0000000000000000000001 diamters, the "flux" is stronger than it would be
> at say, 100.00 diameters. Something's fishy here... <oops, found my last
> week's tunafish sandwich as a bookmark in my Physics 1001...>
>
> Hal
>
I was working on a long handwave explanation but after seeing Mr.
Little's explanation, I think I'd use that one instead.
- --
Thomas Jones-Low
tjoneslo@together.net
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:17:39 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Indefinite life span
Paul Drye wrote:
> In one of my science-fictional universes, aging has been beaten, so I've
> always been interested in different approaches to this. I've seen estimates
> as low as 450 years if nothing but aging is stopped,
There's still the question of what "stopped ageing" means. What about
accumulated tissue and genetic damage due to scarring, viruses,
radiation, cancers, poisons, etc? That which does not kill you can
make you weaker.
> and others pointing out that "average lifespan" becomes a bit
> pointless when, given a large enough group, someone will reach any
> arbitrary lifespan....
If you treat lifespan in such a situation as an exponential
distribution (to first order), the average is still very meaningful.
Of course, the "hazard rate" is certainly not going to be constant for
all people over all times, so it's not an especially good
approximation in the small scale. However, if the society-wide
average hazard rate is roughly constant over sufficiently long times,
any reasonable distribution will look like an exponential distribution
in the large scale.
If nothing else, you could use the median instead of the mean,
i.e. "half the population is expected to die before age X".
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 11:30:06 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: OT RL Info on Internet copyright
Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:
> Basically, it is illegal to have any kind of personal information
> about other people on a website without those persons' express
> permission.
OK, get a group of people together and send 50 individual requests
each to the offices of whoever represents you in government, asking
for permission to mention their name on your website. Use a nice
scripting language to save yourself work in filling in the blanks in a
nice and polite letter. Be sure to have a template for thanking them
for their responses if you get one.
Whether or not you get a response, send in another (polite) template
letter for another webpage. Hell, make a cron entry to automatically
generate them every few days.
It might not change their mind, but it sure would be fun :)
- - Tim
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:38:41 -0700
From: "A. Batishko" <abatish@utah-inter.net>
Subject: I'm running a campaign...
...using CT (love those reprints), with some fairly heavy GURPS influence.
The date is late 1120, the setting is the Regina subsector (Spinward
Marches). The only player (it's a PBEM campaign, so fewer players = faster
play) is a 50 year old ex-Navy Captain (I "blessed" him with only one arm
due to some medical complications (and missing a survival roll just a couple
years before he would retire). See the following web page for character
details/game log/etc...
http://home.utah-inter.net/abatish/pbem/21804ets.html
So, anyway, the basic concept is as follows: DriftTech is a salvage company
specializing in deep space operations. They've found a ship of unknown
configuration drifting in the outer system of Yres. They sent an team in to
secure the ship and ready it for salvage operations. The team didn't return.
They're putting together a follow-up team. They want our hero to lead the
team, since he has both leadership experience and a vast knowledge of
various military craft, which could help in this unknown situation. The
character is currently on Boughene, waiting for the operation to commence.
So, here's my question. Is there any "interesting" information about Yres?
I've got GURPS Behind the Claw, so I have basic details, but nothing really
from any non-GURPS sources. Also, does anyone have any interesting ideas of
what I might spring on this guy? I've got some general ideas, but I'm
looking for other possibilities I might incorporate. This will be my very
first Traveller campaign...
Andrew
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:54:01 -0700
From: "samir" <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3695
I remember when this book first came out... how ever I don't remember
anything else about it.
What makes it a woofer?
Thanks Samir
> Good luck. "Shattered Ships of the Fighting Imperium" is one of the great
> woofers of Traveller.
> - --
>
> Douglas E.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:48:32 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps - longish
Timothy wrote:
>I'm quite aware of that. If you can come up with a solution that
>matches everything Marc has said about Jumpspace, I'd love to hear it.
>I couldn't.
>
>However, my own model does actually match the wording here -- IMTU,
>ships *do* precipitate out of jumpspace as they near the 100D limit.
>The only problem is that it takes them a week to do finish doing so,
>and hence the 100D limit may have moved in the meantime.
>
>If they have matched orbital velocities with the object that
>precipitates them, no problem. They'll emerge right on the edge of
>the 100D limit, so it does provide a built-in safety feature. It's
>only when the object is moving relative to them that they may end up
>inside the 100D limit.
Thank you for clairifying your position, I'll work on it.
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:58:10 -0700
From: "samir" <samir@chisp.net>
Subject: an off topic thank you
I want to take a moment for all of those people that sent me email on my
request for help with a Navy problem. All the advice was useful and those
******** are on the run, mainly from the EEO and JAG office. There is an
investigation currently happening with the individuals involved. So I cannot
comment further. But again Thanks.
Samir
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 01:01:49 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: I'm running a campaign...
From: "A. Batishko" <abatish@utah-inter.net>
"Also, does anyone have any interesting ideas of that I might spring on
this guy? I've got some general ideas, but I'm looking for other
possibilities I might incorporate. This will be my very first Traveller
campaign..."
Mr. Batishko,
May I suggest you look at the CT Adventure "Death Station"? i have run
it over 6 times, with a few variations, both as a one night adventure and as
part of a campaign. It should gice you a some rather nasty ideas to spring
on your PCs.
One group I ran through it had such poor luck with their task rolls,
they eventually evacuated the lab ship and destroyed it with their ship's
weaponry. Seeing as they were recently recalled Scouts I was able to
fashion quite a few horrific assignments as "punishment" for goofing up that
one.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:09:49 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Thom Jones-Low wrote:
> One thought you had was to shove a mass into the "path" of the jump to
> stop an escaping ship. The problem is in the proportional case and for
> an interstellar jump, a ship jumping from Earth orbit would pass Pluto
> orbit (some 5 light hours away) in about 1 1/2 minutes after jump. So
> interception becomes very difficult, if not impossible.
Yes, that was based on testing for 100D limits either at the end of
the jump or throughout the jump.
> Do you know one (or more) good introductory reference websites
> for General Relativity?
Not offhand. The sci.physics.relativity FAQ
http://www.public.iastate.edu/~physics/sci.physics/faq/relativity.html
has some references, but they are all to books or journal articles.
> Do you have the references for the GT, other than the star
> jump masking requirements in Far Trader?
In GT, yes -- the only explicit reference I have seen is the jump
masking table. Using gas giants for refuelling (mentioned somewhere,
though I can't locate the page at the moment) will also lead to very
long distances and hence high speeds. Less likely to apply to
10,000-ton freighters, though.
> The speed is relative (in theory) to the ship in the other
> system who is going to try and jump back to catch you before you
> leave.
Does that mean that if no such ship exists, then there is no
tearing-up of jump space? And that if some ship, somewhere, is
travelling at 1000 km/s then every ship using reactionless thrusters
tears jumpspace to shreds across a whole sector?
> stellar relative motion is on the order of 10 km/s (IIRC),
Stars have relative speeds of up to 200 km/s, according to a survey of
stellar proper motions about the Sun.
> > I'm sure you're already aware that you can get time travel without
> > reactionless thrusters.
>
> Yes. The task of accelerating a to 1% the speed of light
> without the use of reactionless thrusters is very much harder
> however.
This isn't necessary. With jump-4 engines, 0.15% of c will suffice.
If you have jump-6 engines available, 0.1% of c will do. In fact, a
combination of planetary orbits and stellar proper motions may well
suffice by itself without resorting to any sort of thrusters.
> You can extend the theory to cover this instance by having the
> pocket universe be pushed through jump space by the motion of the
> mass in real space.
And/or pulled, since the ship should emerge on the limit, not inside
or outside. Basically, I suppose you could think of the 100D limit as
being a sort of "jumpspace flypaper" for ships trying to move inside
the limit while in jump. They fly in, get stuck on the boundary, and
remain stuck while dropping out of jumpspace.
> The only way to overcome this would be to have four (or more) masses
> on a collision course at the time of the emergence. And at this
> point I'm not sure what would happen.
The ship is destroyed, of course :)
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:10:27 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Indefinite life span
On 18 Feb 2001, at 17:40, Paul Drye wrote:
> >Not that I'm disagreeing, but what is this number based upon? I can't even
> >imagine what it could be based upon. Structural breakdown of the body?
> >Insurance company actuary tables? Just asking.
>
> Most of these are based on actuarial tables and other studies of accidental
> death. The key point is that accidents are essentially random, so a large enough
> group has a "half-life". Unfortunately, you have to make certain guesses about
> the rate at which accidents will increase or decrease -- for example, are you
> the equivalent of a thirty year-old all your massively extended life? (All those
> car accidents, etc.) Or are you more cautious because you're more experienced?
> Lots of variables.
Or just less accident prone due to being more skilled at what you do? Recently
I set up some life tables for Elfs, Dwarfs, etc for D&D3, and had great fun
setting death rates, etc. One thing I found was that it takes a very low adult
death rate to get the average life-span up above about 200.
> In one of my science-fictional universes, aging has been beaten, so I've
> always been interested in different approaches to this. I've seen estimates as
> low as 450 years if nothing but aging is stopped, and others pointing out that
> "average lifespan" becomes a bit pointless when, given a large enough group,
> someone will reach any arbitrary lifespan....
Well, as you noted above it's not so much an average as a half-life at that
point.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:10:27 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 18 Feb 2001, at 17:14, Terry Carlino wrote:
> By the way while Tridents may indeed have 6-9 man berthing the typical
> carrier or cruiser has 30-150 person berthing, which gives a completely
> different environment. You can get to know 6-9 people. Getting to know 150
> people when all are on different watches and work in different specialties
> is difficult. It's like living at the Y. You can't leave your towel hanging on
> the rack without worrying about somebody taking it. This doesn't even cover the
> difficulty a senior petty officer has having to live among the people (s)he
> supervises. It's like living in the same room as your kids.
Good Gods! What on earth possesd the USN to do that? This is the first time
I've ever heard of a serious military organisation that houses senior NCOs with
their men (barring infantry in trenches) on that scale. Ick.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:10:27 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 18 Feb 2001, at 14:52, Gerry Harris wrote:
> The U.S. Navy has always been an all-volunteer force. When you were
> drafted, you were drafted into the Army, nothing else. You had to
> voluntarily go into the Navy.
>
> This isn't 18th century Britain with its press gangs, fella.
Hmm. The British only press-ganged into the Navy, their Army was volunteer. Now
I wonder why that could be?
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:07:22 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Freezing, Cloning, etc. (longish)
In mail you write:
> My question to you concerns our hypothetical corpsicle's personality;
> the part of hin that makes him who he is. I know that most research is
> spotty and that the entire field is barely in it's infancy, but I've been
> reading books by Penrose, Sacks, Jaynes, and their ilk. Thye've been
> tackling the thorny problem of consciousness and, by association,
> personality.
> In my extreme layman's view, whatever it is the brain does to create
> the "mind" relies on both "hardware" (the neural net) and "software" (the
> electrical activity along, perhaps down to a quantum level). This viewpoint
> is admittedly simplistic and could be horribly wrong.
> Given the ability to "freeze" our low berth passenger without damaging
> his cells, or "hardware", could you state your opinion as to whether the
> process might upset his "software", or neural-electrical activity?
There are some possibily applicable datapoint available. there have
been a number of folks revived from "extreme hypothermia" in the last
50 years. And some of the more recent cases were *so* extreme, that
doctors did research and now *deliberately* induce that sort of "total
shutdown" to have more time for performimg certain types of surgery.
Given that there *haven't* been reports of major personaily changes in
such cases, I'd say that lack of electrical activity isn't a major
problem, unless there's a "fading" effect that occurs after a much
longer period than we currently can "shut down" a person for.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:20:42 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 18 Feb 2001, at 17:33, Charles R Hensley wrote:
> Gerry Harris wrote:
>
> >The U.S. Navy has always been an all-volunteer force. When you were
> >drafted, you were drafted into the Army, nothing else. You had to
> >voluntarily go into the Navy.
> >
> >This isn't 18th century Britain with its press gangs, fella.
>
> I believe that the draft during WW2 was an all-service draft. During
> Vietanm, the Navy acted as a dodge to the draft, ie: someone drafted
> into the army could get out of it if another service accepted him before
> his appear date. Therefore the Navy had a larger number of "volunteers"
> who otherwise would not have volunteered for service at all.
Was that also the case with the Marines? Or were their voluteers simply mad?
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:26:00 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Indefinite life span
On 19 Feb 2001, at 10:46, Timothy Little wrote:
> On Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 06:27:52AM -0800, Roger Sanger wrote:
> > If aging was cured, then the average life expectancy (before you
> > were killed in an accident or caught a deadly disease) would be
> > around 1800 years.
>
> The death rate for 25 year olds in the US was 0.14% per year, giving a
> gross estimate of 700 years average lifespan if aging was fixed at 25.
> (The only way I could get a 1800 year estimate was to take the death
> rate for children aged between 1 and 15 in the US as a baseline)
The flaw with this is that the death rate goes up after about 20. Despite the
well-known ability of teen-agers to get themselves killed in fights, fast cars,
etc. we're actually quite good at protecting them.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:26:00 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 18 Feb 2001, at 23:35, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
> "The U.S. Navy has always been an all-volunteer force. When you were
> drafted, you were drafted into the Army, nothing else. You had to voluntarily
> go into the Navy."
>
> Mr. Harris,
> I believe that other during WW1 and WW2 plus a few years after, the
> Navy has always been a volunteer force. The general improvement in crew
> quality this led to was one of the reasons it was able to outfight the RN on a
> unit by unit basis.
When? If you're refering to the war of 1812 I suggest you look at _all_ the
actions that took place in that war.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 02:37:29 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Good Gods! What on earth possesd the USN to do that? This is the first
time I've ever heard of a serious military organisation that houses senior
NCOs with their men (barring infantry in trenches) on that scale. Ick."
Mr. Boleyn,
Every berthing set-up I've heard about as the E-1 to E-6 ranks living
in one compartment, E-7 thru E-9 living in another, and the officers living
staterooms either doubled up, or sometimes in 4s' or 6's. Senior Officers
"usually get their own staterooms, but this will vary greatly depending on
the type of ship.
Carriers might give captains and admirals rather nice quarters; think 1
br flats, abd many other officer's single staterroms, but on SSN's (where
space is at an extreme premium) only the CO will get to bunk alone.
Everyone else is crammed in.
The prevailing US military culture values "Toys before Boys". While US
military personnel aren't treated as badly as the CIS's, the quality of life
is rather low. It's really surprising that the retention rate isn't lower
than it already is.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:49:55 EST
From: AyrconTML@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3690
- --part1_e.907d406.27c1e3d3_boundary
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I took a short course in Atomic Demolition Munitions as a US Army Engineer LT
in the early 1980s (I still keep the class on one version of my resume). The
ADM was 1950-60s technology and "man-portable." One of their missions was
dam removable (with the side effect of removing the local neighborhood).
They were larger than what I'd consider to be man-portable. A more proper
title might be: truck-portable or helicopter portable. The Army got rid of
the mission in the mid-80s.
Fortunately, I have no practical experience.
Scott Ayres
In a message dated 2/17/01 1:13:08 PM Central Standard Time,
owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 04:29:57 -0800 (PST)
> From: Gerry Harris <harrisgwjr@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: Suitcase Nukes...
>
> A buddy of mine, a former Air Force nuclear weapons technician, was
> called upon to perform manintenance on dozens of nuclear weapons during
> his 20+ years, including what he referred to as man-portable nuclear
> engineering charges. He said the special operations folks were
> allegedly supposed to hump these into enemy territory to take out dams
> and such.
>
> Now, he said the charges he maintained were barely man-portable being
> quite heavy (this being 1960s-1970s technology) but he never ruled out
> smaller suitcase bombs using more advanced technology.
>
> =====
> Gerry Harris
>
- --part1_e.907d406.27c1e3d3_boundary
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I took a short course in Atomic Demolition Munitions as a US Army Engineer LT
in the early 1980s (I still keep the class on one version of my resume). &nbsp;The
ADM was 1950-60s technology and "man-portable." &nbsp;One of their missions was
dam removable (with the side effect of removing the local neighborhood). &nbsp;
They were larger than what I'd consider to be man-portable. &nbsp;A more proper
title might be: truck-portable or helicopter portable. &nbsp;The Army got rid of
the mission in the mid-80s.
Fortunately, I have no practical experience.
Scott Ayres
In a message dated 2/17/01 1:13:08 PM Central Standard Time,
owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE style="BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px">Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 04:29:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Gerry Harris &lt;harrisgwjr@yahoo.com&gt;
Subject: Re: Suitcase Nukes...
A buddy of mine, a former Air Force nuclear weapons technician, was
called upon to perform manintenance on dozens of nuclear weapons during
his 20+ years, including what he referred to as man-portable nuclear
engineering charges. &nbsp;He said the special operations folks were
allegedly supposed to hump these into enemy territory to take out dams
and such.
Now, he said the charges he maintained were barely man-portable being
quite heavy (this being 1960s-1970s technology) but he never ruled out
smaller suitcase bombs using more advanced technology.
=====
Gerry Harris
</BLOCKQUOTE>
- --part1_e.907d406.27c1e3d3_boundary--
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 02:54:39 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Was that also the case with the Marines? Or were their voluteers
simply mad?"
Mr. Boleyn,
The Marines in the Vietnam era were all volunteer also, but may have
contained some individuals who joined them rather than serve in the Army;
like in the Navy example in the previous posts.
During the Pacific War, the Marines didn't take draftees unitl late in
the conflict and a geat deal of friction arose between the Marines who had
"wanted to fight" and those had been "drafted to fight".
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 03:04:31 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"The general improvement in crew quality this led to was one of the
reasons it was able to outfight the RN on a unit by unit basis."
"When? If you're refering to the war of 1812 I suggest you look at
_all_ the actions that took place in that war."
Mr. Boleyn,
Mea culpa. You are correct of course. I should have inserted the word
"mostly" in the sentence above between "to" and "outfight". A case of
sloppy composition, and maybe a wee bit of chauvinism, that made me slur the
Royal Navy unfairly; a force in which some of my ancestors served.
Churchill in his "History of the English Speaking Peoples" does allow
that the infant USN was mainly overwhelmed rather than out fought. I can't
think of a more vocal booster of the RN then WSC; however his mother was
American. 8^)
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:06:42 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 19 Feb 2001, at 2:37, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Mr. Boleyn,
> Every berthing set-up I've heard about as the E-1 to E-6 ranks living in
> one compartment, E-7 thru E-9 living in another, and the officers living
> staterooms either doubled up, or sometimes in 4s' or 6's. Senior Officers
> "usually get their own staterooms, but this will vary greatly depending on the
> type of ship.
What do the E-1, etc mean? I realise that they're the numerical names for
enlisted ranks, but I have no idea what they mean in real terms. Could you
please tell me what their titles are, and at what point you'd be an NCO. I was
in the NZ Army, and we use a British style rank structure, with all ranks
named, not numbered (and I can't remember our Naval enlisted ranks, anyway).
> Carriers might give captains and admirals rather nice quarters; think 1 br
> flats, abd many other officer's single staterroms, but on SSN's (where space is
> at an extreme premium) only the CO will get to bunk alone. Everyone else is
> crammed in.
I can understand that on a sub, but on a cruiser?
> The prevailing US military culture values "Toys before Boys".
Here it seems to be just 'hanging on to what we've got', as the pay, conditions
and gear all suck. This may be getting better in the next few years, for the
Army, anyway.
> While US
> military personnel aren't treated as badly as the CIS's, the quality of life is
> rather low. It's really surprising that the retention rate isn't lower than it
> already is.
Ours is terrible, and once the thrill of active service in East Timor wears off
I expect it to get even worse - our pay, even counting all the allowances, is
so much worse than that of the Aussies (even if you ignore the exchange rate)
that people'll be leaving in whilesale lots. It's not hepling that the Aussie
Army said they'd quite happily take our guys on, and often even give them their
old rank back fairly quickly, though given the quality of some of their boys
back in '92 when I was on excerise there I'm not surprised (no insult intend -
we've got pur share of incompetents, too).
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:08:55 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 19 Feb 2001, at 3:04, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Mr. Boleyn,
> Mea culpa. You are correct of course. I should have inserted the word
> "mostly" in the sentence above between "to" and "outfight". A case of sloppy
> composition, and maybe a wee bit of chauvinism, that made me slur the Royal Navy
> unfairly; a force in which some of my ancestors served.
> Churchill in his "History of the English Speaking Peoples" does allow that
> the infant USN was mainly overwhelmed rather than out fought. I can't think of
> a more vocal booster of the RN then WSC; however his mother was American. 8^)
IIRC earlier on the US ships overwhelmed the RN ships by being bigger and
newer, and later when the British built two-deck frigates to match (and brought
their naval spending back up) the US ships had all kinds of trouble.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3698
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Subj: | Traveller-digest V1999 #3699
Date: | 2/18/01 9:26:49 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com (Traveller-digest) Sender: owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com Reply-to: traveller@lists.ient.com To: traveller-digest@lists.ient.com

Traveller-digest Monday, February 19 2001 Volume 1999 : Number 3699
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Deep Space Jumps
Vilani Vocabulary
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Draught (Draft?)
RE: Ship habitability
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3695
OT 'En Garde'
Re: TGOOs
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Indefinite life span
Re: Deep Space Jumps
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
RE: Ship habitability
Re: Ship habitability
Re: Darrian names?
Re: Darrian names?
Re: TGOOs
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:26:05 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
In mail you write:
> On 17 Feb 2001, at 11:22, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Now consider that for some types of "kinetic kill" ortillery it will
>> take from 3 minutes to 15 minutes between launch and impact. And that
>> they will *start* at the level of a shell from a battlesjhip's main
>> guns and go *up*, well into the nuclear range.
>>
>> In Traveller, in a similar situation, the other hill might *really*
>> disappear.
>>
>> It's that sort of thing that would tend to discourage the enemy from
>> grouping troops or having fixed positions.
>
> Especially if they that control the orbitals have meson guns.
It occurs to me that besides the "window" in the IR range, there's
another band, somewhere in the microwave range where the atmosphere is
pretty transparent.
Imagine a gigawatt (or more!) maser beam with a diameter of 100 meters
or more sweeping across an area suspected of hiding guerillas. Trees
exploding into sharpnel, bodies exploding like an egg in a microwave.
Truly a "terror weapon"!
FWIW, I get around 400 kW/m^2 as the power density for such a beam.
Even if that's not enough for the effects I described above, I suspect
that it'd more than enough to be lethal, even if it takes a while to die.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:31:36 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
In mail you write:
> On 17 Feb 2001, at 16:20, Dave McKenna wrote:
>
>> How about particle accelerators over a vacuum/trace world? :-)
>
> Good, but meson guns have an advantage when rooting out troops who have
> serious overhead protection.
On the other hand, even if they are well dug in, melting the rock to a
depth of 10 meters takes them out of action for a long time anyway.
Unless *they* have meson guns, you've just eliminated them from *that*
battle.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:35:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
In mail you write:
> Thom Jones-Low wrote:
>> 1) The 100D limit is only a rule of thumb. The real limit is based
>> around tidal acceleration and the amount of distortion of normal space
>> by a near by mass.
>
> Yes, I use this one too. Whenever you see me write "100D" in
> reference to my Traveller universe, it means "distance at which tidal
> acceleration is equivalent to that 100 diameters from Earth". For
> really light planets like Saturn, it is really about 50D. Yes,
> supergiant stars have the "100D" limit inside the star itself.
Evil thought. Someone plots a jump to such a star and doesn't
doublecheck the figures. And the ship comes out *way* too close to the
star.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:14:18 -0500
From: "Michael Daumen" <daumen@mindspring.com>
Subject: Vilani Vocabulary
>
> Everything in Vilani means bread pudding. They *really* like bread
pudding
> there, and have a few hundred thousand varieties.
> - --
You know, cold bread pudding, three day old bread pudding, the poorly made
kind with the pudding scum shaved off . . .
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:19:29 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
On 18 Feb 2001, at 18:31, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> In mail you write:
>
> > On 17 Feb 2001, at 16:20, Dave McKenna wrote:
> >
> >> How about particle accelerators over a vacuum/trace world? :-)
> >
> > Good, but meson guns have an advantage when rooting out troops who have
> > serious overhead protection.
>
> On the other hand, even if they are well dug in, melting the rock to a
> depth of 10 meters takes them out of action for a long time anyway.
> Unless *they* have meson guns, you've just eliminated them from *that*
> battle.
But that thakes a fiar bit of power from a PAW. However if you've no real use
for the surrounding countryside a nuke would do nicely. It's amazing how
liberating fighting on a planet that's not yours is. :)
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 16:19:29 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
On 18 Feb 2001, at 18:26, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Imagine a gigawatt (or more!) maser beam with a diameter of 100 meters
> or more sweeping across an area suspected of hiding guerillas. Trees
> exploding into sharpnel, bodies exploding like an egg in a microwave.
Not to mention the fun to be had from all those nice bits of metal heating up,
arcing, and flying around.
> Truly a "terror weapon"!
>
> FWIW, I get around 400 kW/m^2 as the power density for such a beam.
> Even if that's not enough for the effects I described above, I suspect
> that it'd more than enough to be lethal, even if it takes a while to die.
IIRc it only takes a few degrees of 'instant' temperature rise to coagulate
quite a few of the protiens found in a person.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 03:19:06 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
"Mexal - Oh, if you want to be formal it's Doctor (the PhD sort, not
the medical kind) - but I prefer 'Mexal'."
Dr. Mexal,
If I may be so forward, in just what field did you earn your Phd.?
Whether your scenarios are written for "Flashing Blades" or "En Garde",
I would still be very interested in seeing a precis of them. I would like
to make the "code duello" part of my world's culture to seem realistic and
not over the top. To put it rather bluntly, I want to avoid buckling too
many swashes.
Thank you again for both your kindness and help.
I remain, madam, your most humble and odedient servant,
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:42:36 -0600
From: Charles R Hensley <hensley.cr@gte.net>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
Rupert wrote:
>What do the E-1, etc mean? I realise that they're the numerical names
for
>enlisted ranks, but I have no idea what they mean in real terms. Could
you
>please tell me what their titles are, and at what point you'd be an
NCO. I was
>in the NZ Army, and we use a British style rank structure, with all
ranks
>named, not numbered (and I can't remember our Naval enlisted ranks,
anyway).
E-1 - E-3: enlisted, rank titles vary based onb specialty
E-4 - E-6: junior NCO
E-4: Petty Officer 3rd class
E-5: Petty Officer 2nd class
E-6: Petty Officer 1st class
E-7 - E-9: senior NCO
E-7: Chief Petty Officer
E-8: Senior Chief Petty Officer
E-9: Master Chief Petty Officer
E-1 to E-6 bunk in same room, but rank has privledges such as choice of
bunk (from experience, having been kicked out of 2 bunks because a petty
officer decided that he liked that bunk)
Charles H
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 03:43:00 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"What do the E-1, etc mean? I realise that they're the numerical names
for enlisted ranks, but I have no idea what they mean in real terms."
Mr. Boleyn,
I'm afraid I can't translate the E rankings into ground forces terms
with any accuracy. I'm sure that many of the ex-infantry here on the TML
will be reading this thread and jump in to give you a hand.
In the USN, E-4 is the lowiest NCO. He's a "third class petty
officer". Secind class is 5, first is 6. At E-7, you become a chief, than
a senior chief, then a master chief.
In the interests of enticing and then retaining people who recieve
advacned training, all US forces have suffered "rank" inflation. I believe
the Marines might not suffer this as much as the other branches.
Advancement to a certain level is rapid and sometimes part of simply
enlisting. This lets the service pay the person a bit more money.
In my example, because I tested well, signed up for the nuc propulsion
program, and made it through boot camp succesfully, I was made an E-3 at
graduation. I was an E-4 six weeks later after passing through my first
training hurdle; an "A" school. Over the remaining time in my 6 year
enlistment, I earned E-5 and E-6 the regular way. I would have been
promoted to E-7 the year I got out.
"I can understand that on a sub, but on a cruiser?
On my ship at least, a cruiser, every officer over O-4, had his own
cabin.
"Ours is terrible, and once the thrill of active service in East Timor
wears off I expect it to get even worse - our pay, even counting all the
allowances, is so much worse than that of the Aussies (even if you ignore
the exchange rate) that people'll be leaving in whilesale lots."
Having been to Indonesia on several business trips, I shudder in horror
when thinking about what walking a foot patrol there must be like.
Our "winning" of the Cold War, has led the pols to slash our manning levels
at the exact time we have more things to do. So little money and long
missions are driving people out.
Our Army has continuosly failed to meet it's recruiting goals for over
5 years now. Others here will have the exact figure, but I think the US
Army needs to induct something like 40,000 bodies per year just to stay
even. It's like shovelling sand onto a screen, some stays, but most drains
away. The 3rd Infantry Division, currently in it's 5+ year of a 1 year
mission, must depend on a continual influx of recruits and the constant
rotation of State National Guard units on 7-13 month deployments.
Otherwise, the Army can't keep it anywhere near full strength.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 22:47:22 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Re: Draught (Draft?)
In a message dated 18-Feb-01 9:27:50 PM Central Standard Time,
owner-traveller-digest@lists.ient.com writes:
> Was that also the case with the Marines? Or were their voluteers simply mad?
I don't have a reference to hand, but I believe USMC drafted during WWII, and
for a time during the Vietnam era. IIRC the USN managed to get by on
enlistment during the first few months of WWII, but began taking draftees as
well when the Army tightened things up.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:01:50 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 19 Feb 2001, at 3:43, Larsen E. Whipsnade wrote:
> Mr. Boleyn,
> I'm afraid I can't translate the E rankings into ground forces terms
> with any accuracy. I'm sure that many of the ex-infantry here on the TML
> will be reading this thread and jump in to give you a hand.
> In the USN, E-4 is the lowiest NCO. He's a "third class petty
> officer".
He'd be about equivilent to a Lace Corporal in the NZ Army, then.
> Secind class is 5, first is 6.
Corporal, then.
> At E-7, you become a chief, than a
> senior chief, then a master chief.
Sergeant, Staff Sergeant, WO2 (? - I can never remember whether which is the
higher, WO1 or WO2, though I know which insignia I needed to salute).
> In the interests of enticing and then retaining people who recieve
> advacned training, all US forces have suffered "rank" inflation. I believe the
> Marines might not suffer this as much as the other branches. Advancement to a
> certain level is rapid and sometimes part of simply enlisting. This lets the
> service pay the person a bit more money.
Quite a lot of other militaries that are modelled on the US system have this
problem, too. There's quite a lot of comtempt in British style Armies for
Segeants from US style armies. It's hard to respect a Sergeant that's been in
less time than your Lance Corporals, especially when they get to eat in your
Sergeant's mess (they always have the best food and bars).
> In my example, because I tested well, signed up for the nuc propulsion
> program, and made it through boot camp succesfully, I was made an E-3 at
> graduation. I was an E-4 six weeks later after passing through my first
> training hurdle; an "A" school. Over the remaining time in my 6 year
> enlistment, I earned E-5 and E-6 the regular way. I would have been promoted to
> E-7 the year I got out.
Good Lord. Our Territorials (which I served in) are known for fast promotions (
partly an attempt to improve retention, partly so people have the rank and pay
equal to their responsibilites) and I took five years to get to Lance Corporal
(though the average was more like 3-4 years).
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:01:50 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
On 18 Feb 2001, at 21:42, Charles R Hensley wrote:
> E-1 to E-6 bunk in same room, but rank has privledges such as choice of
> bunk (from experience, having been kicked out of 2 bunks because a petty
> officer decided that he liked that bunk)
Works like that on Amry exercises where the JNCOs and privates are in the same
room. After the Section Commander (in theory a Corporal) and 2IC (supposed to
be a Lance Corporal) have chosen their places everyone else gets to fight over
what's left.
- --
"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:07:02 +0400
From: Andrew Long <andylong@emirates.net.ae>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1999 #3695
>>>> Original Message >>>>
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:15 +0000 (GMT)
From: mcrobertson@cix.compulink.co.uk (Megan Robertson)
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER FOR SALE
Mr. Whipsnade is seeking a copy of FLASHING BLADES. Excellent game, and if
he wants I'll see if I can dig out the scenarios I've written for it :-)
Hugs and kisses,
Mexal.
<<<< end of original message <<<<
Actually, I think he's after 'En Garde' - Flashing Blades was by FGU(?)
Andy
========================================
Andy Long AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae
========================================
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:17:01 +0400
From: "Andrew Long" <andrewlong@hotmail.com>
Subject: OT 'En Garde'
This little gem of a game was recently published in the UK by... wait for it... 'Small Furry Creatures Press' (or they might have been 'Fuzzy...') Whatever, well worth a go. A number of my friends participate in a PBEM game, which has been extended by a variant covering the lives of their lady Loves (based on the movie 'Dangerous Liasons'). See if you can get your hands on a copy of a fanzine called BUM (Backstabbers United Monthly) run by my mate Malcolm (Malc_C@Compuserve.com). Knock three times and say that Andy sent you.
Andy
========================================
Andy Long AndyLong@Emirates.net.ae
========================================
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:18:28 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: TGOOs
On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 12:35:23 -0500 (EST), James Gilly / Alasdair MacIain
<alasdair.maciain@snet.net> wrote:
>At 10:54 AM 2/18/01 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>> I don't recall seeing bangpaths for addresses.
>??? What the heck is a "bangpath"? A hyperlink?
Listen, child, and learn of history... :)
Early in the history of what became the internet that we know and love,
mail wasn't automatically routed; you had to know the path that it needed
to take to get to the recipient. This was specified as a series of machine
names, separated by exclamation points ('bangs' in the jargon). There were
a few well-known machines - some of them eventually became 'backbones' -
that everyone was expected to know how to get to from their own machine, so
people would give their addresses by specifying the path to take from those
machines. You'd see addresses like "...!foobar!bazquux!fredbloggs!user",
meaning that you should insert your path to the well-known machine foobar,
then from there it would go to bazquux, then to fredbloggs, then to the
user, who had an account on fredbloggs. These were called 'bangpaths'
because the elements of the path were separated by 'bangs'.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:25:54 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
>From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Over the remaining time in my 6 year enlistment, I earned E-5 and E-6
the regular way. I would have been promoted to E-7 the year I got out."
"Good Lord. Our Territorials (which I served in) are known for fast
promotions (partly an attempt to improve retention, partly so people have
the rank and pay equal to their responsibilites) and I took five years to
get to Lance Corporal(though the average was more like 3-4 years)."
Mr. Boleyn,
Good Lord indeed. Thanks to this rank inflation for certain shipboard
jobs (all of them high tech) there is quite a gulf between parts of the
crew. On my cruiser, nuc engineering barely dealt with the rest of the
crew. Of course, it didn't help that most of our workspaces were off limits
to them due to either radiation exposure or security reasons. We were
almost two different crews.
Non-nuc divisions (work groups for specific jobs; ie electrcians,
cooks, etc.) had NCOs of a more "normal" age who'd been in for a more
"normal" amount of time. On our mess deck there was a lounge in which all
E-6's were supposed to eat in. I never did. None of the nucs never did.
We had nothing in common with the regular E-6's, some of which were in their
late thirties, who did eat there.
We loathed them for being brainless, lifer scum, just waiting for their
20 year pensions, and not having the balls or brains to make it in the real
world. I'm mortally sure they had equally poor opinions of us.
Anyone who re-enlisted in nuc engineering beyond their original 6 years
was thought of poorly too. He was socially ostracized at the very least.
My division went close to 3 years without one happening. Trying to keep
engineering manned with the poor quality of life and the attitude displayed
by the current crew was next to impossible. Like bailing with a seive.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:30:54 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Indefinite life span
Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> > (The only way I could get a 1800 year estimate was to take the death
> > rate for children aged between 1 and 15 in the US as a baseline)
> The flaw with this is that the death rate goes up after about
> 20. Despite the well-known ability of teen-agers to get themselves
> killed in fights, fast cars, etc. we're actually quite good at
> protecting them.
Yep -- there is a rapid increase in the 15-20 death rates over 10-15,
but it is a fairly steady increase all the way up from there.
i.e. 15-20 death rates are lower than 20-25, which are lower than
25-30, etc. Adults are more likely to die than adolescents.
I suspect the death rates particularly for males in the 15-25 ranges
were greatly different in times of war, and probably higher than any
other age range for the duration. I haven't found data on this
though.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:39:25 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Deep Space Jumps
Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Evil thought. Someone plots a jump to such a star and doesn't
> doublecheck the figures. And the ship comes out *way* too close to
> the star.
Oops, boiled egg time.
Actually, I wonder: if they have a streamlined ship, they probably
have pretty good heat shielding for atmospheric friction. They just
might be able to escape before toasting if they've got good thrusters
and aren't too far inside. Red supergiants tend to be relatively
cool, possibly even below the melting point of high-tech armour
material. Insulation would be absolutely necessary though; they can't
dump heat anywhere.
Another question arises if they have fuel scoops: could they gather
and refine enough fuel from the star to jump out before they toast?
This would be even faster than trying to escape via thrusters.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 04:39:57 -0000
From: "Larsen E. Whipsnade" <grote1731@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz>
"Works like that on Amry exercises where the JNCOs and privates are in
the same room. After the Section Commander (in theory a Corporal) and 2IC
(supposed to be a Lance Corporal) have chosen their places everyone else
gets to fight over what's left."
Mr. Boleyn,
Our case was a little different but worked much the same. Becasue we'd
been given rank so quickly and for relativley little, we disparged it.
Instead, our pecking order was based on how long you'd been aboard and how
high you were qualified (how many different watch stations you could
handle).
My first LPO (engineroom leader) was an E-4. He refused to do the
ocursework or take the test for advancement, yet he ran an engineroom and
even stood watch as an enlisted EOOW, engineering officer of the watch.
Granted he was an extreme case.
I remember a "lifer" E-6 reporting aboard. He was automatically
despised due to his decision to make a career of the Navy and for the fact
he wasn't qualified yet. (It took about 120 days to go through basic
familiarizatin with the reactor suite and then begin to learn watchstations.
In our world, if you couldn't stand watch, you were feces. We were
standing six and sixes, remember.) When he tried to "usurp" a rack from a
qualified E-4 who'd been aboard for a while. What happened next was the
closest I saw to a fist fight. The "lifer" nearly got pounded by 6 or 7
guys and had to make do with a top rack until he made chief and moved out.
Larsen
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 15:45:53 +1100
From: Timothy Little <tim@lilly-villa.little-possums.net>
Subject: Re: Artillery falls from the sky...
Rupert Boleyn wrote:
> IIRc it only takes a few degrees of 'instant' temperature rise to
> coagulate quite a few of the protiens found in a person.
400 kW/m^2 probably translates to about 1 kW/kg in a person. That's
enough to raise their average temperature by about 1 K per 4 seconds.
Heating would be very uneven though, so some parts would be a lot
hotter than others. Not a pretty picture if the beam lingers for more
than a moment or two.
- --
IMTU tg+ tc+() !tt tm tn-- ge++ 3i+ c+>++ au+ ls pi-@ ta- he+ va++ as+ so- kk--
Tim Little 0209 D347577-9 S va++ as+ so- kk-- A 822
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:47:41
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <gridlore@pop.mindspring.com>
Subject: RE: Ship habitability
At 02:52 PM 2/18/2001 -0800, you wrote:
>The U.S. Navy has always been an all-volunteer force. When you were
>drafted, you were drafted into the Army, nothing else. You had to
>voluntarily go into the Navy.
During WWII the US Navy did accept draftees.
- --
Douglas E. Berry gridlore@mindspring.com
http://gridlore.home.mindspring.com/index.html
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:51:40 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@gci.net>
Subject: Re: Ship habitability
Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz> wrote
> What do the E-1, etc mean? I realise that they're the numerical names for
> enlisted ranks, but I have no idea what they mean in real terms.
Might I suggest checking your copy of High Guard or MT's expanded
character generation rules which name all the ranks in Traveller
terms. If you're asking what they mean in the _US_ military I'm
sure someone will answer that or post a link.
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 23:04:43 -0600
From: Jimmy Simpson <nimrodd@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Darrian names?
At 06:10 PM 2/18/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>Is there a Darrian name list and/or language generator out there anywhere?
>Turning my storage room upside down has failed to produce my Darrians
>Alien Module....
>
>Cheers,
>Paul Drye
>
>_________________________________________________________________________
>Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.
>
I have a spreadsheet that generates names for 13 different Trav languages
(Ael Yael, Aslan, Darrian, Dynchia, Gvegh, Happirhvani, Hkar, K'kree,
Norsk, Oynprith, Vilani, Vuakedh and Zhodani). I can send it to you if you
are interested.
Jimmy Simpson
nimrodd@mail.com
"The avalanche has already started.
It is too late for the pebbles to vote."
-Kosh Naranek (Babylon 5)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:04:11 -0500
From: Jeff Zeitlin <jzeitlin@cyburban.com>
Subject: Re: Darrian names?
On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 19:12:56 -0500 (EST), "Paul Drye" <p_drye@hotmail.com>
wrote:
>Is there a Darrian name list and/or language generator out there anywhere?
>Turning my storage room upside down has failed to produce my Darrians Alien
>Module....
I _think_ there's a table for Daryen in my word generator. Freelance
Traveller, Information Center, Computer Connection, Traveller Programs for
DOS and Windows, WordGen by me.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jzeitlin@cyburban.com
(ILink: news without the abuse. Ask via email.)
------------------------------
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 18:40:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: TGOOs
In mail you write:
> At 10:54 AM 2/18/01 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>> I don't recall seeing bangpaths for addresses.
>
> ??? What the heck is a "bangpath"? A hyperlink?
Back when I first got on the Internet, mail was addressed using
bangpaths. "Domains" didn't exist.
The secondary address in my sig dates back almost that far. as a
bangpath addres, it'd be given as:
...!tektronics!reed!qiclab!leonard (I think that's right)
Basicly, a bangpath is *explicit* routing instructions. It tells how
route a message from a "well-known site" (aka "well-connected site") to
you. It consists of a list of sitenames, seperated by exclamation
marks.
The above translates as:
... <put the route needed to reach the next site from your
site here>
tektronics Forward to tektronics
reed forward to reed
qiclab forward to qiclab
leonard forward to leonard
So as an example, let's take the above "address" and
...!reed!percival!grayman.
I'd address mail to grayman as "reed!percival!grayman" (ie send this to
reed, from reed to percival, and from percival to grayman)
He'd address main to me as "reed!qiclab!grayman"
This sort of thing required users to know the paths from their sites to
the handful of well-known sites, so they'd know what to replace the
"..." with.
On the other hand, if a site went down, you could route mail around it.
In fact that was one of the major objections to domain style
addressing. Many early domain aware mail routers would try to send via
a "more direct" route that went thru as site that was down. That was
annoying.
What was *really* annoying were the ones that re-wrote the bangpath
into a domain style address and then tried to send it via the down site
that the user had been trying to route around!
And for that matter, when I got on the Internet, the newsgroup
hierarchy wasn't anything like the curent one. The "Great Renaming"
which established comp, rec, sci, soc, and talk as the roots was some
months off. Alt came later.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #3699
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