Subj: Traveller-digest V1999 #1380
Date: 11/22/99 4:07:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
From: owner-traveller-digest@lists.imagiconline.com (Traveller-digest)
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Traveller-digest Monday, November 22 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 1380
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: OFF TOPIC (OT): Taikonauts!
Re: Ideological Warfare
Re: Mass Destruction
Re: Mass Destruction
Gas Giants in close orbits
Re: Two things....
Superpowers (was Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery)
Re: Galactic
Re: Mass Destruction
Re: MONGO NATIONAL GUARD FLEES IN TERROR!!
Re: Tourism in the Marches
Re: Slavery was Re: Ideological Warfare
Re: Ortillery VS Gropos Long(was Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:48:24 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn"
Subject: Re: OFF TOPIC (OT): Taikonauts!
On 22 Nov 99, at 16:55, dennis.f.belanger@bellatlanti wrote:
>
>
> Hey Josh,
>
> Better dead than Red!
>
> The only " good will" I want to see in space exploration is the
> courtesy we
> might extend to other nations for the use of OUR tech, OUR ships and OUR
> personelle.
Considering how much is Russian (once Soviet) tech, Russian 'ships',
Russian personnel and most definitely Russian experience and expertise
I'd be a little more courteous myself.
- --
Rupert Boleyn
Wellington, New Zealand
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:58:59 -0600
From: "Robert Eaglestone"
Subject: Re: Ideological Warfare
Who says Imperial culture is Western?
If the archaeologists/anthropologists/whatevers are right,
human culture didn't put any value on the human at all
until around 2000 BC (with, of all people, Abraham).
It was with certain Semitic peoples in Mesopotamia that
developed the idea that the person was worth something;
from there we have the birth of "Western" civilization. The
older ways hung around as well, and gave rise to Eastern
thought, though there is a mix of East and West in each
of us now due to the cross-pollination of ideas over time.
The old ideology commanded us to accept the inevitable,
dance with the wheel of life... the world of the ascetic or
the fatalist. The Western ideology is a bit more intrusive,
I think, with the idea that each person is an individual, with
value, and that struggle is meaningful, time is linear, etc etc.
On all human empires there will be swaths of competing
ideology, over history, work, wealth, rights, etc.
IMTU there are ideologies that come with each culture.
Cultural regions IMTU follow these rules of thumb:
Interior: Cultures are gathered in subsector- and sector-
wide regions (see the MegaTraveller books). Some allowances
and prohibitions are valid for the entire region. Expect local
corporate offices to be staffed significantly by locals, who
follow their culture. Also expect a vocal minority of
protesters to oppose the seemingly arbitrary and unfair
cultural biases inherent in the culture. Activist will call for
change. Money will exchange hands, and political fortunes
will be won and lost. People will die, and will either be
hailed as heroes or conveniently forgotten.
Interior cultural borders: On the borders of two cultural regions,
ideology will be an interesting, sometimes conflicting blend of the
cultures. Expect there to be sporadic violence and terrorism.
Don't expect there to be full-blown war, because of the Imperial
Marines. However, you can bet yer boots that some corporations
have "tradewars" more for cultural reasons than economic ones.
People will die, and will either further polarize the factions at
each others' throats or will be forgotten.
Frontier worlds on the X-boat route: Expect these cultures to be
related to other cultures which were grafted to the boondocks
from the interior. An important world will spread its culture
to neighboring worlds, and a cluster of important worlds will
probably have the same culture... or a few antagonistic ones.
Frontier worlds off the X-boat route: Cultures will vary wildly from
planet to planet, and even continent to continent. Expect wealthy
worlds to have influence over their neighbors. However, the frontier is
where you'll find all the fringe groups, off the X-boat routes.
- -Rob
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:55:30 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Mass Destruction
In mail you write:
>> Interesting idea, but I wonder about the cost of a Death
>> Star.
> According to published Star Wars sources its a sphere about 120 km in
> diameter, thus it has a displacement of 6.463 x 10^14 dtons.
Nope. Doesn't match the photos. For that size, and the size of the
central trench, relative to the diameter of the DS, when we get to the
shot where the trench almost fills the screen, the hangar bay wouldn't
be *visible*.
> The second DS is supposed to be larger.
>
> The cost of the frame alone would be ... significant.
And you've got the problem of this thing having a significant gravity
field. Which means that the stresses on the frame are going to be unreal.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 14:50:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Mass Destruction
In mail you write:
> Kyle Schuant writes:
>>Who remembers Moff Tarken in Star Wars? He was never ordered
>>to go and waste Alderaan.... who here thinks that if the Death
>>Star had survived the Emperor would have cashiered and executed
>>Tarken? I think he just got carried away with his big new toy.
>>Alderaan's annual taxes might've paid for a whole new Death
>>Star.
>
> Interesting idea, but I wonder about the cost of a Death
> Star. It is described as the size of a "small moon," and
> certainly looks like one from close up. Anyone have a
> guestimate of its tonnage? I cannot imagine anything
> just 1 km in diameter being refered to as a "small moon,"
> perhaps 10 km would be a minimum. This is about 3.88x10^10
> dtons. It might require more than a few planets worth of
> annual taxes.
My figures say 20 miles diameter, tops.
Based on using freeze frame on the video, and measuring the relative
size of:
diameter of Death Star:width of central trench
width of central trench:heighth of hangar bay entrance
heighth of hangar bay entrance:thickness of Millenium Falcon
>>What are the possibilities for a Death Star type weapon in
>>Traveller? Maybe a humungous Meson Gun?
>
> That would be the best of the canon weapons systems, IMHO.
> Of course, some sort of grav device might be effective at
> allowing the planet to blow itself appart. In any event,
> it would have to be BIG.
On the other hand, try sitting down and figuring the output for a PAW
20 miles long. Actually, given what we see in the film, make that *six*
of them.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:02:52 -0800
From: Russell Bornschlegel
Subject: Gas Giants in close orbits
British astronomers may have detected light [reflected] from a planet
orbiting another star [Tau Bootes, 50 ly away].
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_531000/531486.stm
Cue the "edit Solomani Rim to match reality" thread...
- -Russell Bornschlegel
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:03:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Two things....
In mail you write:
> 1) thanks for the responses on the Ine Givar...unfortunately I don't
> posses a credit card and sending a cheque in US dollars is problematic
> for us Brits, but the archive article gave me enough background to work
> on. Thanks again - excellent article.
Check with the Post Office and various banks. Odds are that you can buy
a Money Order in US funds without *too* much trouble.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:12:21 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin
Subject: Superpowers (was Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery)
>From: "Terry Carlino"
>Subject: Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery
>>Well, that's great. Last I noticed, within the
>> Imperium there are no feuding superpowers. There
>>can be no Cold War style situation in the Third
>>Imperium... well, there can be, but at that point
>>you begin to getfurther and further away from the
>>canon view of the Imperium.
>
>You don't consider the Zho / Imperium relationship
>that of feuding superpowers? It fits the classic
>example, down to the support of the conflict between
>the Darrians and the Sword Worlds as sponsored
>governments.
A superpower in contemporary times means a nation that
can effectively exert its will anywhere in the world
in a very short time, without any other power's
cooperation. The United States is presently the only
nation with that capability.
In the Far Future, a superpower would have to able to
exert its will anywhere in known space in a very short
time, without any other power's cooperation. Given
distances and travel capabilities, no power can be a
true superpower.
Local regions may experience two or more great powers
as pseudo-superpowers, who have to be considered in
taking any action, but that still doesn't rise to the
level of one-world superpower capability.
Another key difference between the recent past and the
Far Future is that no one in the Far Future has a real
and immediate ability to destroy all life everywhere.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 17:26:34 -0600
From: Black ICE
Subject: Re: Galactic
jghamrick@or.freei.net wrote:
>
> I've just searched a zillion Traveller sights to no avail. Can anyone
> direct me to a place where I can download GALACTIC?
>
> Thanks
Try:
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Starship/8023/
That site is maintained by Galactic 2.4's author.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1999 00:45:00 +0000 (GMT)
From: Michel R Vaillancourt
Subject: Re: Mass Destruction
On Mon, 22 Nov 1999, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> >>What are the possibilities for a Death Star type weapon in
> >>Traveller? Maybe a humungous Meson Gun?
> >
> > That would be the best of the canon weapons systems, IMHO.
> > Of course, some sort of grav device might be effective at
> > allowing the planet to blow itself appart. In any event,
> > it would have to be BIG.
>
> On the other hand, try sitting down and figuring the output for a PAW
> 20 miles long. Actually, given what we see in the film, make that *six*
> of them.
>
> --
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
Hi, Leonard! Given that it is a coliding beam weapon, I'd say its
monster-sized meson gun that uses multiple tunnels to synthesize a *much*
bigger weapon...
--Michel
-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
Michel R. Vaillancourt
misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
Dad, Hubby, MIS Manager, Gamer, Author, SCAdian....
"Who the heck has the time to have a LIFE?"
-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
Into Cyberpunk? Check Out:
"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/cp2020"
Into Traveller? Check Out:
"http://www.atlantic-online.ns.ca/traveller"
-+=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=+-
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:55:52 -0800 (PST)
From: Glenn Goffin
Subject: Re: MONGO NATIONAL GUARD FLEES IN TERROR!!
>From: "Josh W. Spencer"
> Glenn:
>IS this an actual campaign? If so, when does Flash
>Gordon, Dale Arden and Dr. Zarkov show up? :) :)-
- -->Josh
Well, it's an actual game of Fifth Frontier War (a map
and counters game), but not a Traveller role-playing
campaign.
For the answers to your questions ... watch this
space.
- --Glenn
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 15:39:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Tourism in the Marches
In mail you write:
> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>> Steal^H^H^H^H^Hborrow an idea from David Weber. There's a local
>> bacterium, probably entire *familes*(in the taxonomic sense) of them,
>> that just *loves* chlorophyll.
>
> Hmmm. Good idea, but it doesn't go far enough I think...
>
>> Luckily these bugs are tied to the local ecology well enough that they
>> don't survive well off world.
>
> Well, this keeps people from importing plant for agricultural purposes,
> but if you accept the basic premise that it's a true garden world, then
> that's probably not a big deal. Assuming Whanga has the same level of
> biodiversity as Earth, which is reasonable, then there's no shortage of
> possible plants to cultivate agriculturally.
>
> There really isn't an issue of Whanga's plant life being inedible by
> humans, as the Vilani and several dozen other minor human species seem to
> have
> made out ok by living off of a biosphere that, at first glance, would seem
> incompatible. If there's something that grows on Whanga that looks like a
> potato and contains a lot of something resembling starch, then chances are it
> can be shugili(sp?)-ized into something edible.
But at what cost? And what does the result taste like?
There comes a point where importing is simpler.
> My only open question is that I wonder if the agricultural worlds of
> the Imperium notice the loss of biomass over time? I mean, if you have
> "Alberta-zon", the planet covered with wheat (and right-wing politicians)
> that's perpetually being shipped out to feed the legions or whatever, do they
> start to suffer after a few centuries? Do they notice the loss of
> nutrients, minerals, etc?
They would eventually. But you can slow it down a bit by requiring
visiting ships to dump their "sludge" tanks. You can do even better if
you have the ships hauling grain one way haul "sludge" the other way.
Hi-pop planets are going to have an *awfully* large amount of the stuff
to treat. Enough that doing *minimal* treatment and loading it into the
food ships for the return run may make sense.
- --
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
shadow@krypton.rain.com <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com <--last resort
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 18:05:12 -0600
From: Black ICE
Subject: Re: Slavery was Re: Ideological Warfare
Kiri Aradia Morgan wrote:
>
<>
>
> Are their any cultures in your TU that practice slavery? Do you believe
> that slavery is economically unworkable after a culture reaches a certain
> TL? I am curious as to how people have dealt with this issue. I am sure
> that there's no slavery in the 3I, but what about other places? Traveller
> is really a space opera, and slavery is prevalent in lots of those.
>
Dr. Jerry Pournelle, in _King David's Spaceship_, points out that the
horse collar eventually led to the end of human slavery as a routine
institution. [Note: Figures used are from _KDS_.] Before the horse
collar was invented, a horse could do the work of five human slaves,
because the harnesses in use at the time would strangle the horse if you
had it pull too much. Since a horse also eats about as much as five
human slaves, human slave labor is reasonably attractive. However, once
the horse collar was invented, a horse could do the work of _ten_ human
slaves, while still eating as much as five human slaves. Given the
obvious economic benefit of using horses for heavy work (twice as much
work per unit of food), slavery becomes more rare, and is generally
imposed on peoples thought of as inferior. Once the Industrial
Revolution began, slavery became even less viable economically, as
machines began to replace human labor in many fields.
Thus, S.M. Stirling's Domination of the Draka notwithstanding, I would
not expect to see chattel slavery in a semi-rational technological
civilization.
- --
AuricTech Shipyards Journeyman Gearhead
"Gold-Plated [tm] solutions for copper-plated problems!" (r)
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/9776
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 1999 19:02:26 -0500
From: "Chris Seamans"
Subject: Re: Ortillery VS Gropos Long(was Re: Traveller Navigation and Gunnery)
From: DaveShayne
>I was responding to the specific scenario of a worlds leaders deliberately
>sabotaging their own infrastructure not making a general point. If say
>some political leader were to order you to destroy your source of income
>in order to annoy some larger political body would you? Would your
neighbor?
It's happened, and it will most likely happen again (and again). It seems
like you're assuming a modern American apathetic dynamic. There are
astonishing examples in World War II, for example.
Ask me that later if I'm particularly surly with regard to the American
government, it'll help if I am part of a separatist movement.
>>Still, there are some worlds which require technological assistance to
keep
>>their population alive. Of course, the Imperium wouldn't need to drop big
>>rocks on them to win them over.
>
>
>If they're fanatics who'd rather die than accept Impie rule they would.
>But such people are rare in the extreme.
I don't think that they're as rare as you think. Vietnam (particularly apt,
actually), Afghanistan... I can be here all day composing a list, and that
would only focus on those after 1900 or so.
>True there are Welsh seperatists. And a lot more Welsh who are more or
>less happy being british. Then there are the Quebec seperatists. And twice
>in a row they've voted down independence.
I never said that *every* world would want to leave the Imperium, nor that
every world that wants to leave will be commited. However, I think that it
would be an eventuality that would happen, and would happen a number of
times within the Imperium. After all, there are many, many worlds within the
Imperium.
Remember, the Imperium looks the other way with regard to the plight of
worlds ruled by brutal regimes every day. It's going to be obvious to
somebody that the Imperium *could* do something and chooses not to as long
as the taxes are coming in. Give such a scenario, I don't know, one or two
or six centuries and you're going to have people who have more than just a
little dislike for the Imperium.
Toss in the submerged cultural regions, which were at one time multi-world
polities with long histories and (presumably) proud traditions, and which
were brought into the Imperium by force.
>There are other examples, my point being that in any reasonably large
>population you will be able to find a number of quislings and a lot of
>people who won't care who is in charge as long as they have bread
>on the table and a reasonable expectation of having more of the same in
>the future.
If what you're saying is true, the Japanese could never have isolated
themselves to the extent that they did. Incidentally, that isolation ended
when the American Navy threatened to come back in a year and start
bombarding the country.
Actually, after the West made their way to Asia and started trying to pawn
off their shiny baubles the Asians frequently pulled inward and tried to
isolate themselves. Some were successful, some were not.
>>"In all other situations..." watch those generalizations, sir! ;)
>
>Errata --- Please insert the word "most" in between the words "in" and
"all"
>in the sentence in question.
It is an important distinction to make. After all, you're saying that unless
you have less than 999 people (a pop code of 2, if I recall correctly)
you're not going to be able to get any agreement. Not all worlds are
canonically participatory democracies, and we're talking about all sorts of
different cultures with differing degrees of collective self-consciousness.
>>neccesarily descriptive) but even so, what happens when you're confronted
>>with a charismatic, nationalistic dictator, or ideology, or both?
>
>Some people become adherents of the said dictator/ideology many don't.
>The trick is to kill the adherents whilst leaving as untouched as posible
>those who aren't.
If you'll pardon my saying so, that's an awfully shallow view. Charismatic
dictators are not mesmers. They do not suddenly shift populations with their
stunning rhetoric. They are charismatic because they are a product of the
culture that they are making their appeals to. Don't get me wrong, I'm not
saying that their actual *presence* doesn't matter. I'm just saying that it
goes far deeper than that. Ideologies, on the other hand, are not simply
born overnight.
They accrete and develop over the course of long decades, even centuries.
Let's keep going with the Nazi example. It's a good one. You kill the
adherents. How do you find the adherents? There were hundreds of thousands
of German citizens who had no qualms about going out and killing Jews. There
were members of police and para-military groups who sent back pictures of
dead Jewish Poles - women and children and old folks - in the streets to
their wives and children back home.
There have been anthropological and sociological studies done which seem to
strongly point the finger not at any one leader, nor any one group of people
(indeed, those who participated in the really nasty and atrocious acts were
a decent cross section of the German populace), nor any general moral
breakdown on the part of the German people it was the result of a long
process and includes philosophy, religious development, folklore, political
movements, outside influences, and many, many other factors.
In other words, how do you figure out who adheres to an ideology and who
doesn't?
>>Least damaging to whom? The planet or the Imperium?
>
>Well if the goal is integration of the planet into the imperium I'm
thinking
>that
>these are one and the same.
Not at all. After all, rocks are cheap, battle-dress, grav tanks and trained
operators are not.
>>If it's the former, dropping rocks is effectively the same as dropping
>>ground troops. You're still going to lose civilians, and it's more than
>>likely that you're going to decimate industrial centers. If it's the
>latter,
>>dropping rocks is a hell of alot cheaper and less time consuming than
>>dropping marines in battle dress.
>
>If you don't mind who or what you hit you can just drop rocks.
>If the historical record on strategic bombing can be used as
>an analogy for the rock dropping you propose then it won't
>be as effective as MIB and will result in a good many more
>civilian deaths.
So what you're saying is that nailing, say, a city of 10,000, at no danger
to the Imperium, is going to be different from entering into a ground war
that could have many, many more casualties and could cost the Imperium a
hell of a lot more?
>Maybe not Hitler but how about the Krupps? Or the general staff?
>Or even confronting Hitler in 36 or 37 when the wermacht was still
>A small and mostly obsolete force instead of the much larger army
>of 39.
Fair enough, but do you honestly think that bribing Hitler, or Lenin, or
Castro would have succeeded? Do you think that Hitler would have been
interested in money?
Besides, we don't need to speculate. There were many attempts to get Japan
to open up to trade after they closed themselves off. When China tried to
close itself off from imperialist Britain, they probably would have
succeeded. The only problem was that Britain resorted to nasty tricks in
order to keep up the trade, tricks that were, at least in my estimation, at
least as bad as nailing a population center or two.
>On the subject of Castro. I was going to go there but I won't.
It's a good idea not to, considering the fact that he's still in power. ;)
>>Just out of curiosity, how did we end up on the Marxist "peasant revolt"
>>line? It doesn't have to be "peasants" or "proles" who are doing the bulk
>of
>>the revolting at all. In fact, in cases like the American of French
>>Revolutions the peasants weren't even the real driving force behind the
>>rebellion.
>
>Either the planetary leaders or the planets population intend to leave the
>Imperium. If the leaders don't or if the leaders can be co-opted then
>that leaves everybody else. I'm just trying to remind you that planets
>aren't political monoliths. Just because a group of plotters wants to
>seperate from the benevelent 3I doesn't make that the will of the
>populace. And just because the working stiffs want to suceede doesn't
>necesarily imply that the holders of political power will go along.
Well, no, it doesn't have to be either the peasants or the leaders. It can
be both, and the reasons can be deeply rooted in the culture of the people
on the world.
>>Actually, religious disputes, historically, have been among the least
>>"dirty" wars, depending on how you look at it. This may simply be an
>>accident of history, since the same force that allowed mankind to make
>>really impressive weapons also happened to marginalize those religious
>>institutions that would be able to make war to a great degree.
>
>I was thinking dirty in the sense of less likely to obey "civilized rules
of
>war"
>rather than more deadly per se.
Fair enough, although I'm not sure that anybody *really* follows "civilized
rules of war" these days. Folks tend to avoid the nukes, chem and bio
weapons simply because they know that the situation will most likely
escalate to the point that they'd be wiped off the face of the earth.
>Allow me to expand your reasoning here. Lets suppose that you drop your
>carefully limited rocks to enforce your will. Sure this works for a while
>untill
>someone says "Well they always stop short of causing real damage we can
>call their bluff."
Yep. No doubt.
>And sooner or later it escalates to needing to slag
>planets to
>prove you are willing to slag planets.
Nope, the Imperium only needs to do it a couple of times to prove that
they're willing.
>and eventually you can't keep the
>fiction
>of a benevellent Imperium going and lots of worlds and probably quite a few
>fleets rebel and the next thing you know....
I didn't know that there was a fiction of a benevolent Imperium.
>The war wasn't over untill the gropos had occupied germany. The fire
bombing
>of Dresden did'nt materially hasten the occupation. Ergo the firebombing
was
>"more or less irrellevant...."
>Again at that point it was obvious that the Japanese had lost the war.
>The question was at that point what concessions could they get from
>the US. The bomb just convinced Hirohito that all of his people would die.
>He ordered the unconditional surrender (which wasn't quite unconditional
>they got to keep their emperor). If this still supports your thesis (in
your
>opinion) well so be it.
Um... Okay, sure. In one case the war wasn't over until the infantry
occupied the country, in the other the war was over before the infantry
occupied the country. You'll have to excuse me when I say it sounds like
you're trying to have your cake and eat it too.
>I'm sorry but the infrastructures of both countries were destroyed by
>strategic
>bombing (mostly) which is closer in spirit to your rocks than to my MIB's.
Actually, no. It's not closer in spirit to what I'm talking about. I'm not
talking about strategic bombing in any way, shape or form. I'm talking about
the use of terror weapons. Two entirely different things.
What do you think happens when you let loose the battle-dress marines and
the grav tanks? Do you think the infrastructure of the country remains
intact? Do you think that the Imperium will avoid nailing strategic targets?
So, no. Strategic bombing is not what I'm talking about here, not in any
way, shape or form.
>Also. The point I was trying to make is that we forestalled another war by
>A) Physically occupying both countries with large forces.
I'm fine with the occapation angle, actually, considering the fact that
after the war was over the job of the infantry was no longer taking ground.
Would you consider what the Americans did in Japan after their surrendered
was "fighting a land war"? Same with Germany. Same with Kosovo right now.
It's something of a moot point anyway, because... (scroll down)
>B) Rebuilding the destruction we had caused in our attempt to drive them to
>their knees.
...the difference with rock dropping is that you don't *really* damage the
infrastructure all that much. After all, you nail a city and the civilian,
industrial and military infrastructure of that city is *gone*. Poof. Not
there to rebuild in the first place.
Compare that to the effects of a ground war, in which you're going to have
to destroy the enemy's industrial capacity if you want them to stop
fighting.
>The cost of these paliatives would far outweigh any monitary savings for
>orbital bombardment and the cost of not occupying/rebuilding would be
>the need to go back and do it twenty years later with the added bonus
>that more of your enemy will be convinced that you are evil.
People forgive and forget pretty quickly. Even ground wars can end with the
same kind of feelings that you're talking about. Take Germany's position at
the end of World War I, for example.
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1380
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