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Subject: TML biweekly: Msgs 7668-7677 V45#3
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TML biweekly    Sun May 22 21:00:02 EDT 1994    Volume 45 : Issue 3

Today's topics:

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 610  7668 19-May-1994 CHiggin@aol.com  Fleet Strengths... << From: djohnson@ge
 610  7669 19-May-1994 Gregg Giles      TML: Just split already... <<    There'
 610  7670 19-May-1994 StarTrek76@aol.  Melbourne Times << Travelers:
 611  7671 19-May-1994 "KMCCARTHY"      None <<                        Subject:
 611  7673 19-May-1994 Roger Sanger     They Came From Beyond - #4 <<  
 611  7674 19-May-1994 mgood@MIT.EDU    Unsub Me! << I didn't mind all the TNE 
 611  7675 19-May-1994 Goldman of Chao  Re: Strephon's fate and others. <<  Rog
 611  7676 19-May-1994 "Mitchell Schwa  Wilds Adventures << Roger Sanger asks:
 611  7672 19-May-1994 CHiggin@aol.com  Sacnoth << Discussion between David Joh
 611  7677 19-May-1994 "Mitchell Schwa  Deep Space 2: More comments << Gerald w

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Bundle: 610
Archive-Message-Number: 7668
From: CHiggin@aol.com
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 12:00:06 EDT
Subject: Fleet Strengths...

From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)

>There are no clear rules (with the exception of possible *Trillion Credit
>Squadron*, which I don't have) tying naval forces to any sort of UWP data.
>Based upon the `1000 ships per sector' mentioned in the *Rebellion
>Sourcebook* we get an `average' of 62.5 ships per subsector.  Based upon the

What we get from TCS is an annual naval budget, based on UWP, and 
shipyard capacity, based on starport type and UWP (specifically, 
population).  I don't have TCS handy right now; Hans, Ken, someone 
care to fill in the numbers?

>Thus, the entire Confederate Navy consists of 42 ships.  The 
>Confederate Army consists of something around seven armies.  These
>figures seem a little low

A LOT low, unless you are talking about capital ships only.  I might 
believe that the Sword Worlds has only 42 active-duty Battleships, but
given the naval budgets and yard capacities of even Tizon or Sting 
(let alone Narsil - ohmigawd!), I cannot believe that the Sword Worlds
has only 42 total battleships, cruisers, carriers and escorts.  Sting
alone should have that many.

Remember, the Confederation has been in the habit of taking on the 
Imperium; I suspect they run a much larger navy in proportion to their 
population than the Imperium does.  Compared to the Navies of 
independent single worlds, the Imperium has an incredibly low (factor 
of 100 or more) naval strength in proportion to its population (based 
on my experience playing TCS).  


From: Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>

>However, we do know that "deep meson gun sites" are the preferred 
>method of ground-based planetary defense, and that these are
>supplemented by ground-based missiles and lasers.  I agree that these
>devices do not show up in 5FW, which I _do_ have in front of me as I
>type.

I know we had a long-running thread about the pros and cons of deep 
meson gun sites a few years back, and I don't intend to resurrect that 
thread, BUT-- experience playing TCS has shown one not-so-minor defect 
of those "deep meson gun sites" that Impy planets are so fond of:  
they are shorter ranged than missiles.  A fleet can stand off and 
bombard your starport, industries, surface installations and troops 
out of existance without your meson guns being able to reach it.  

>Regina has only 10 SDBs, according to the 5FW map.  However, the 
>numbers of boats are strongly dependent on population, and Regina is 
>not a high-population

I assume that the SDBs mentioned in FFW are more like Mora's 
multi-hundred thousand ton planetoid monitor than like those 200-ton 
fighters-on-steroids that are listed as SDBs in the various Traveller 
books.  I would be hard put to imagine that a world with Regina's yard
capacity and budget was restricted to 10 overgrown fighters, or that 
10 oversized fighters would pose a serious threat to an invading 
fleet.

>This reminds me--someone posted a few weeks ago that they didn't 
>think that the Imperium allowed multi-planet governmental bodies.  Go
>back and check Adventure 7:  Broadsword, for an example of a world
>(Garda Vilis) ruled from the neighboring world (Vilis).  Also, there
>are quite a few type 6 governments in the Spinward Marches.  I play
>that _some_ of these may be under direct

This is a contradiction that has been around since Classic Traveller 
and never been explained.  Several places it has been explicitly 
stated (no, I don't have it in front of me now) that the Imperium 
does not allow multi-stellar member nations.  I believe it was 
mentioned in one of the Solomani supplements, to contrast it with the 
Solomani Confederation which was made up of multi-stellar member 
nations.  Yet, we have always had those Type 6 governments, some of 
which were described as having Imperial military governors (like 
Terra), most of which are described as colonies of some neighboring 
system. Go figure.

                        -- Cynthia Higginbotham


    "Q:  What is the difference between the BATF and the Gestapo?"
    "A:  BATF agents speak English."




------------------------------

Bundle: 610
Archive-Message-Number: 7669
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 08:07:51 PST
From: so!ggiles@efn.org (Gregg Giles)
Subject: TML: Just split already...

   There's too much debate on something irrelevant to the purpose of this
mailing list. Will those interested in forming a new mailing list please do
so, and stop clogging up my hard disk with this strung-out debate?
   It's gotten to the point that I'm ready to drop TML because there seems
to be very little useful information in it. Please, can we get back to
Traveller? Thank you.


- --
*******************************************************************************
Gregg Giles          Internet: so!ggiles@efn.org        FidoNet: sysop>1:152/18
Sensory Overload (503/484-1281, USR HST DS): Anime, VR, Techno, Digital Highway

     "I program my home computer, lead myself into the future." -Kraftwerk   
*******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Bundle: 610
Archive-Message-Number: 7670
From: StarTrek76@aol.com
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 12:13:11 EDT
Subject: Melbourne Times

Travelers:
        Although I am not a "player" of Traveler, CT, etc,etc. I
am an advid READER of the fiction generated as a spinoff. Part of 
this is the rich backround data that supports the Traveler 
Universe.
        Recently, David Johnson, whoes work we have all enjoyed 
here sent me a copy of his group's publication, THE MELBOURNE 
TIMES. This publication is something like the old JTAS, with a 
multi-page "News Service" entry, great illustrations, and several
feature articles.
        The News Service is based on Dave's "Earth Colonies" 
campaign, and is extreamly dense in information content. I read it
through the first time and found that I had to go back and re-read
it to get the maximum effect. THAT'S how packed with info it was.
I finally sat down and began taking notes, it was that good! I got
Issue #3 as a sample, I do not know where this is in the "flow" 
of the zine, but it's News Service covered the period 1531.12 to 
0723.27 [0ct 22, 3001 to Nov 12, 3001].
        Also included in this issue was a "Sophont Brief" on a new
alien race I had not encountered before the MEREN. If they ARE 
familiar to you, then anything I could say would not due this 
article justice, and if they are new to you also, and if you're 
tired of aliens who are genetically altered cats and dogs .... or
humans ... then I urge you to pony up $1.50 for at least issue #3
of MELBOURNE TIMES. It's worth it even if allyou use is the 
Sophont Brief. But I'm willing to bet you'll find a lot more of 
use in this, like:
        1 - Library Data. Short [1/2 page] but again close spaced
            8 point type, so there is a lot of data there.
        2 - Personafile - New NPCs for your campaign, this one,
            Benazir Chatterji would be suitable as a patron.
        3 - Worldscape/Starfield - although the physical genera- 
            tion of a system can be automated, the backround and 
            especially NAMEING everything is a pain in the...well
            you know what I mean!
        4 - And finally although it's not called the AMBER ZONE, 
            it is! An excellent adventure idea - utilizing dolphin
            characters.
All in all, MELBOURNE TIMES is well worth the $5.00 {$10.00 
overseas} that Dave and the guys want for their work. It's 21-24 
pages of hard data, NPCs and adventure ideas!

- -----Rick Blackburn
     StarTrek76@aol.com
     or
     R.BLACKBURN2@genie.geis.com

============================================

  



------------------------------

Bundle: 611
Archive-Message-Number: 7671
Date: 19 May 1994 12:22:25 U
From: "KMCCARTHY" <KMCCARTHY@qmgate.osc.hq.nasa.gov>
Subject: None

                       Subject:                               Time:11:59 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          None                                   Date:5/19/94

Peter H. Brenton <pete@biochem.uchicago.edu> writes:

>Ok, Now my questions.  How many combat battalions in an Imp. Marine
>Division?  How many companies per battalion?  Platoons per company?
>Troops per platoon?  Are companies combined arms? or are platoons?
>Is artillery organic to the Battalion? or the company?

Today, generally the Rule of Three prevails.  Three combat platoons makes a
company, three combat companies make a battalion, etc.  There is no "Law of
War" that makes this a golden rule.  What is important is the span of control
of the commanders.  Of course that can change with technology.

>Translation of above;  What does the Table of Organization and Equipment
>look like for a Marine Division?  I've made some suggestions above, but >am 
>not familiar enough with military organization to know "what works"
>and what doesn't.  What "monkey wrench" would get thrown into Marine
>organization within the imperium?  Perhaps a few incompetent Noble
>commanders?

Before you do the TOE of the Division you need to hypothesize how the Division
fights and what effect TL-15  would have on combat.  Suppose all of the
infantry would be TL-15 Battle Dress, Grav Belts and Fusion Rifles.  How are
they employed that is different from today's infantry units?  What kind of
logistical tail would this require.  What if they had battle dress but not grav
belts?  Do you need Grav Tank support?  Etc., etc., etc.

If want some basic info and/or help I have a good knowledge of US Army TOE and
some relivent background, 4 years in the 82nd Airborne Div and 8 in the Special
Forces.

>Remeber that Marines are probably often deployed as companies, and 
>should have
>many of the divisional services provided at lower organizational levels
>(A combat engineer squad?  I guess we could get carried away.)

A more effective method would be attached troops/units.  The Task Force concept
is used extensively by  the US Army to tailor make Co., Bn. and Bde. task
forces for specific missions.  Units are attched as needed to accopmlish
specific missions.

PS: Can a TL-15 4mm Guass rifle penetrate TL-15 Battle Dress?





------------------------------

Bundle: 611
Archive-Message-Number: 7673
Date: Thu, 19 May 1994 10:18:31 -0700
From: rodge@cyberspace.com (Roger Sanger)
Subject: They Came From Beyond - #4

 
 
 
 
 
 
                    ---------------------
                    THEY CAME FROM BEYOND
                          episode 4
                    ---------------------
 
 
Baraka made it to the Galaxia Deluxe.  The air-lock took longer
than normal.  Baraka's fear of being trapped reached an all-time
peak, despite the apparently normal people sharing the air-lock
with him.  He had his hand in his pouch ready to draw his plastic
pistol when the inner doors started to open.  He thought he heard
a scream...
 
He started to draw his weapon, but realized it was nothing more
than bad bearings on one of the door motors.  Baraka sighed
deeply, and just stood there as the others left the air-lock for
the hotel's busy lobby.  Baraka poked his head out, looking first
to the left, then to the right.  The people looked normal enough.
 
With a slight smile on his bugeyed face, Baraka weaved his way to
the public vidcomms.  He slid his credcard into the slot and
keyed in a sequence.  The screen said "Calling James L. Tiberius.
Waiting for answer, please stand by..."  Baraka wondered why the
phone had no voice.  Still slightly paranoid, as he waited Baraka
glanced from individual to individual in the lobby to see if he
could spot any that were not quite normal.  He couldn't.
 
"Baraka, how many times have I told you never to call me here?"
The man on the screen was in his fifties, his face covered with 3
days growth of grey whiskers.
 
Startled, Baraka replied, "James, am I GLAD to see YOU.  My cover
is blown.  I'm choking.  You've got to help me!"
 
"I'm retired, remember?  Call the precinct."
 
Baraka couldn't stand his friend's condescending tone, it almost
always frustrated him.  "There's something weird going on in that
neighborhood.  I'd be a sitting duck in there."
 
"You and your paranoia.  You'll be fine."
 
Baraka started to raise his voice, but remembered where he was
and moved in closer to the mic instead.  "They're insane.  I
killed two of them."
 
"What the hell are you talking about?"
 
Baraka, looking quite serious now, stared into the vid-dot
sitting just above the phone's screen and lied through his teeth.
"Two of Eddy's boys came to get me.  I killed them both.  I had
to, or I was dead meat."  Well, at least it was partially true.
He was trying to follow Jorga Porshe's example -- don't tell the
truth if it will land you in the funny farm.
 
"Where are the bodies?  What did you do with the bodies?"
 
Baraka slapped his hand over the speaker, and leaned closer to
the mic, and whispered loudly, "Keep it down, would ya?  There
are people all around."
 
Jim said something, but he couldn't hear him.
 
Baraka wanted him to see the bodies, or at least what was left of
them.  He fantasized about being Jorga Porshe, suave, always with
the right plan, and the right thing to say.  "Physical evidence,"
he mumbled to himself, as his hand slid down off the speaker.
 
"What?"  Jim was obviously getting irritated.  "What evidence?
Where's the murder weapon?"
 
Baraka's mind began to wander.  *Baraaaaaaka*  *Baraaaaaaka*
 
"Baraka!"
 
He snapped out of it, glad to be free of the horrifying
flashback.  He started to puke, but was already emptied out.
 
Jim was convinced something was up.  "Where are the bodies?"
 
"In my apartment."
 
The ex-detective paused, then stated sternly.  "Baraka, I want
you to stay where you are.  I'm going to call the precinct now.
Everything is going to be okay."
 
Baraka, looking quite pekid, shook his head slowly.  "You owe
me.  I need your help."
 
There was a long pause.
 
Years ago, when Detective Tiberius was undercover to bust up a
small exodrine smuggling operation, Baraka had saved his life.
Had James taken that drink, he wouldn't be alive today.  He
befriended Baraka after that, and swore that he would repay the
deed.  "If ever you need my help," he had said, "I'll be
there."
 
Jim took a deep breath.  "Alright, I'll see you at your apartment."
 
Baraka's eye's grew wide.  "No way!  I'm not going back there."
 
"Meet me there in 1/2 an hour."  Bzzzt.  The screen went blank.
The words "Thankyou for using Telequick" appeared on the screen.
 
It was quite comfortable in the lobby, yet, despite his jumpsuit,
Baraka was shivering.  He didn't feel very good.
 
*Baraaaaaaka*
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
To be continued...
Rodge
 

------------------------------

Bundle: 611
Archive-Message-Number: 7674
From: mgood@MIT.EDU
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 13:36:17 -0400
Subject: Unsub Me!


I didn't mind all the TNE vs. CT stuff that much.

But I couldn't take all those spaces in Rodger's messages.

So please unsubscribe me.  I asked rodge@cyberspace.com to
please stop putting in all those spaces.

But he said it was his posting style.

So unsub me, and if he stops, someone please let me know.

mgood@mit.edu

------------------------------

Bundle: 611
Archive-Message-Number: 7675
Subject: Re: Strephon's fate and others.
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 15:02:57 CDT
From: goldman@orac.cray.com (Goldman of Chaos -- postmaster CRI-US)
Reply-To: goldman@orac.cray.com

 Roger Sanger said the following:
 >  
 > Whatever happened to Strephon?  In your campaign that is.
 
 Hee, hee, hee.
        Steve Gumnit assassinated him back in 1979 or so.  In real
        world time 1979.  Game time was also 1979 Terran dating system
        as well!
 
        Any number of folks after that attempted to grab the Iridium
        hot seat since then.  The few that successfully managed to
        take it found that it really wasn't worth having.  It is
        really hard to keep a low profile when you are Emperor!
 
        I had a group that was around when Strephon was assassinated
        ala GDW; however, they were really far out on the rim and the
        news was about 2 years old at the time.  They were much too
        busy surviving and avoiding 'Imperial entanglements' to check
        up on what happened.
 
        My current game is set in 1105, so Strephon is still alive and
        kicking.  The players are Zhodani agents, so we will see what
        happens.
 
 > Do you think Norris would have tried to send a mission into the
 > wilds to save his Emperor?
 
        Well, since I don't use the virus, and I never had quite the
        destruction that GDW did, there aren't 'WILDS' in my game.  I
        (and my players more importantly) didn't want to play
        Twilight 2000 in space.
 
 > Was Strephon's world destroyed?  Or did it become a pocket empire
 > (and who rules it now)?  Is Strephon still alive in your campaign
 > (via anagathics, cold sleep, hybernation, or some other hi-tech
 > development)?
 
        I still use a picture of the Shaw of Iran as the picture of
        Strephon.
 
 - ----
 
 Split!  Three groups, TNE, pre-tne, and general traveller ideas!
 
 - ----
 
 Does FF&S have rules for building gyrojet weapons?  How about GGG?  My
 players really like gyrojet weapons and blasters.
 
 Matt
 

- -- 
Matthew Goldman  E-mail: goldman@orac.cray.com Work: (612) 683-3061

My day today? Nothing major, just Xenon base gone, Scorpio gone, 
Tarrant dead, Tarrant alive and then I found out Blake sold us out.

------------------------------

Bundle: 611
Archive-Message-Number: 7676
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 17:14:31 EDT
From: "Mitchell Schwartz, CVC Communications  19-May-1994 1709" <schwartz@memit.
enet.dec.com>
Subject: Wilds Adventures

Roger Sanger asks:
 
>Who would dare to venture out of the Regency into the wilds?

>What kinds of adventures would the wilds provide for Regency campaigns?

That depends a bit on how "airtight" you play the blockade.  If you play it as
airtight as GDW suggests (destroying every incoming ship), no one unless you don
't plan to
return. Ever.  Ships are just too expensive to waste.  Including by the Regency 
Government!

If you play it as a reasonably tight custom blockade where your ship can be cert
ified clean and
go on, then all sorts of speculative merchants will go to set up trade posts (ou
tlets for medium tech goods), seek hi-tech facilities requiring few repairs, new
 (or fabled in old trade circulars) products.  (Examine Piers Anthony's old Poly
technic League/Nicolas van Rijn stories for a good inspriational feel).

The down and out will go looking to squat on a large "mostly free" chunk of real
 estate.

The missionarily inclined will go to rebuild down-trodden survivors (whether the
y want it or not :-).

The Gov't will sends Scouts and set up listening posts for its own knowledge and
 protection.
  

>What would the Regency government itself be doing about the wilds?

It would want to explore.  However, note the limitations set upon it by the expe
nse of the 
blockade (in the next few messages, I have a discussion about the Regency Navy &
 RQS & such
rude things as budgets and taxes.)

                                                Ted


------------------------------

Bundle: 611
Archive-Message-Number: 7672
From: CHiggin@aol.com
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 13:01:05 EDT
Subject: Sacnoth

Discussion between David Johnson & Hans Rancke:

 >  This is what the *JTAS* Contact article suggests.  My suggestion
 >  is that that entire `real man' schtick for the Sword Worlds is all
 >  just a bunch of Imperial propaganda.  I suspect the Sword Worlders
 >  are no more `paternalistic, macho, vain, braggarts' than Zhodani
 >  are `mind-sucking, inhuman totalitarians' once the veneer of
 >  Imperial propaganda is removed.

I've been watching this discussion for a while, and it has prompted me 
to post some of my own material on Sacnoth.  Regarding the above, I 
sifted through the description of the Sword Worlders in the Contact 
article, compared it to the apparent Imperial standards of behavior, 
compared the Imperial culture to 1980's American culture (the two are 
quite different), and concluded that Sword Worlders are probably a lot 
like conservative 1970's Americans.  By *IMPERIAL* standards, the 
SWers are `paternalistic, macho, vain, braggarts'; by 1990 normal 
American standards, they *might* be mildly sexist and/or racist; by 
1990 American liberal standards, they're Republicans :-).  By 1970 
American standards, they're just plain folks.  

What follows is my campaign summary for Sacnoth:
 
Sacnoth is a very Earth-like world, one of the most Earth-like in the 
entire Spinward Marches.  It is slightly smaller than Earth, and the 
gravity is slightly lower (0.89 G).  There is slightly more than half 
as much water (49% of the surface area).  Its sun is somewhat brighter 
than Earth's - an F9 V. The temperature and climate is about the same, 
though there are more local climatic extremes due to more land and 
less water to buffer the climate than Earth has.  The atmosphere is 
standard O2-N2 mix, but polluted from Sacnoth's industries and cities.  
Fortunately, Sacnoth's medical and environmental technology keeps up 
with the resultant health problems.  It has a long day, 33.68 hours, 
and a long year (504 Sacnoth days, 708 Earth days).  The seasons are 
correspondingly long, and, in the early days of Sacnoth's settlement, 
the six months of winter resulted in a very high rate of clinical 
depression and suicide.  At the present time, this hazard is averted 
by light-enhancing interior design and customary use of 
stimulant-laden drinks during the winter.  (They drink lots of 
coffee-type drinks.)  Winter Melancholy is still a frequent 
affliction, but is almost instantly recognizable and easily treated.  

Sacnoth is inhabited by 8.91 billion people, the overwhelming majority 
of which are human (A very few Vargr, no Aslan, no minor races), 
mostly of Solomani descent.  There are some people of mixed 
Vilani-Solomani blood, but the cultural heritage is overwhelmingly 
Solomani Scandinavian-Germanic.  The major population centers are the 
megalopoli of Berkagerdi, Trettigard, Jordestad, Tyssestad, and 
Asarna, and various other, lesser cities (under 100 million).  The 
megalopoli are divided into city-sized administrative units called 
Cantons, ruled by a noble of at least Baronial rank.  There are two 
city-sized orbital habitats, Vemdalhavn and Eyrarhavn, and many 
smaller, factory-sized installations.  The shipyards of Berkagerdi and 
Vemdalhavn are capable of building up to 5000 ton starships, and a 
variety of non-starships.  

The current government of Sacnoth is a feudal monarchy (NOT a 
constitutional monarchy!); the current King is Harald VII.  He is the 
same monarch who ruled before the war, though certain of his advisors 
were ousted in the political re-alignment that resulted in the 
formation of the Border Worlds.  Sacnoth nobles traditionally have 
families late in life (age 75 to 125), and King Harald's heir, Prince 
Johann, was killed in naval combat during the war, so the question of 
succession is somewhat uncertain right now.  Current politics revolve 
around the succession question, and the very real resentment felt by a 
significant fraction of the population (esp.  the military) at 
"knuckling under" to the Imperium and "becoming an Impy puppet state".  
The military in particular feels betrayed by the government they 
served so loyally, much like the German Army after WWI.  

Transportation is uniformly gravitic; wheeled vehicles are quaint 
museum pieces from other worlds -- much like chariots in the real 
world.  Sacnoth builds very high quality grav vehicles (TL 13).  
Sacnoth medical technology is extremely advanced (TL 14); if there are 
any pieces of you left to put back together, they can probably fix 
you.  As a result, in addition to the standard crimes defined now, 
violence against another person falls into the categories of Assault, 
Lethal Assault, and Murder.  Murder is an Assault that results in 
permanent death, whereas Lethal Assault is an Assault that results in 
temporary death (dead, but resuscitated later).  

The standard of living is uniformly high, though there are always 
people who are less advantaged than others.  However, there are no 
"backward" parts of the world.  As is to be expected in a world of 
almost 9 billion people, laws and regulations affect most fields of 
endeavour, but are not particularly oppressive -- just annoying.  
Paper is another quaint historical curiousity, but entering data into 
administrative databases is still called "paperwork".  Sacnoth's 
industries are mostly automated, but household robots are unknown and 
the use of robots to replace anything besides dumb manual labor is 
virtually unknown.  However, all equipment more sophisticated than a 
broom is quite "smart" (think modern microwave oven, but voice 
controlled, for example).  

 
 A few noted products/brand names:
 
 Husqvarna - energy weapons, gauss weapons 
 Nibellung Gravitics - grav vehicles - Enclosed air/raft
 Tonsonig Metals - fissionables, industrial crystals, basic alloys 
   
  System Fleet - After FFW 

about 70% of Sacnoth's fleet was destroyed during the Fifth Frontier 
War.  What remains include 32,000 heavy fighters, approx.  600,000 
tons Jump-3 capable (avg 50,000 tons?, approx 12 hulls), 4.8 million 
tons Jump-2 capable, and 7.2 million tons Jump-1 capable (avg 5000 
tons, 2 biggest 30,000 tons, total approx 1440 hulls).  

World Builder's Handbook write-up:
 
 Spinward Marches 1325 / Sacnoth B775956-C
 
 diameter: 11500km    density: 1.02     mass:  .68    surface G: 0.89
 Rotation:   33.68  hrs                 year: 505.54 local/708.04Earth days
 axial tilt:    26    Eccentricity:     0    satellites:
 core: molten         seismic stress:
 atm pressure:   1.0 atm                atm composition: O2-N2 w/pollutants
 Hydro: 49%                             Hydro comp: H2O
 
 BMST: 15.4 C
 summer mod:   15.60 ecc mod:        0 day mod:     7.57 Rfactor:      .90
 winter mod:     -26 lat mod:        6 nite mod:  -16.84
 
 HEX ROW              Summer              Winter
                      day     night      day      night
      1                40.98    16.57      40.98    16.57
      2                34.98    10.57      34.98    10.57
      3                32.88     8.47      22.48    -1.93
      4                30.78     6.37       9.98   -14.43
      5                28.68     4.27      -2.52   -26.93
      6                26.58     2.17     -15.02   -39.43
      7                20.58    -3.83     -21.02   -45.43
      8                14.58    -9.83     -27.02   -51.43
      9                 8.58   -15.83     -33.02   -57.43
     10                 2.58   -21.83     -39.02   -63.43
     11                -3.42   -27.83     -45.02   -69.43
 
 Mapping: 7 plates
 Resources: radioactives, crystals, agroproducts, non-metals, parts,
durables,
 recordings, software
 
 population:  8.91E9        native life: yes
 
 City/port:                 Port Pop    Orbital City  Port Pop
  ---------------------------------   ---- ---   ------------------ ---
  Trettigard                           B 4E9     Vemdalhavn     B  7E6
  Berkagerdi                           B 3E9    Eyrarhavn    F  6E6
  Jordestad                F 7E8
  Tyssestad                F 5E8
  Asarna                    F 2E8
  ??????                    H 9E7
  ??????                    H 5E7
  ??????                    H 4E7
  ??????                    H 4E7
  ??????                    H 3E7
  ??????                    H 1E7
  33 x                    H 5E6
  90 x                    H 5E5
  330 x                    H 5E4
  RURAL                       1.05E7
 
 
 Social Outlook:
     Progressiveness        Att: Conservative    Act: Advancing
     Aggressiveness        Att: Competitive    Act: Neutral
     Extensiveness        Global: Discordant
                 Interstellar: Aloof
 
 Customs: nobles have families late in life, stimulant drinks used during
 winter, Lethal Assault and Murder are different crimes,
 
 Government:    Ruler (no division)
 
 Legal:
     Uniformity -
     Profile: 6-69775
 
 Technological:
     Profile: CC-CBBED-DDDC-DC-E
    
   
 SYSTEM DATA
 
     Primary : F9 V
 
     Orbit:    0    DM companion
 
         1    EMPTY
 
         2    G880236-C(9)    Muspelheim    Mn Re Nv
 
         3    Y550000-0    Surtheim
             10  Y100000-0
             30  Y100000-0
 
         4    B775956-C(8)    Sacnoth
 
         5    SGG [84 0.16 185 1.68]    Niffleheim
              7  YS00000-0
              8  H400000-B(9)
             60  YS00000-0


    
                        -- Cynthia Higginbotham


    "Q:  What is the difference between the BATF and the Gestapo?"
    "A:  BATF agents speak English."




------------------------------

Bundle: 611
Archive-Message-Number: 7677
Date: Thu, 19 May 94 18:22:22 EDT
From: "Mitchell Schwartz, CVC Communications  19-May-1994 1817" <schwartz@memit.
enet.dec.com>
Subject: Deep Space 2: More comments



Gerald williams says:
>Ted7@world.std.com writes:

>> There is nothing in GDW's current (or past) Traveller series technology that 
>> requires a celestial body for jump.

>Except the background, that is.  
Beg to differ with you.  Such jumps are done in several places in GDW's own 
adventures.  In fact, the J5 route across the Great Rift includes more than one
such station.  Such jumps and deep space stations are PART of the background.

How do you get to the Islands Clusters without them?  (Must be, otherwise the
Islands would have been rediscovered by the 3I LONG before the 900s.  (See 
Trillion Credit Squadron for details.)

However, note that costs of operating a series of Deep Space stations increases
geometrically!  Assuming the cost of operating 1 station is 4 times as expensive
as operating an orbital port (probably more like 8, but 4 will do).  To operate 
the
second one, you need to do the same operation from the first!  Setting up that
second station into the depths is 16 (or 64 starting with 8) times as expensive 
to 
build and operate!  Note that regardless of whether they are used for commerical
purposes, building and maintaining something by anyone (including the military o
r by 
Vampires) has a cost in logistics and energy spent for that purpose.  That's the
cost I'm discussing.  Governments cannot set these babies up deep into the Rift 
all
over the place.  This is also why the Vamps are unlikely to "flank" the Regency 
through
 the Rift - it requries to many resources to do.

>An example from TNE (which I don't own) is the Regency's defense
>against the virus.  I guess TNE claims they are covering every
>cubic meter in a shell 6 parsecs thick around the Regency (which
>is ludicrous--they would have to be able to INSTANTLY destroy any
>ship coming out of jump in that area and NEVER fail).  

Ah, you have hit upon another of the reasons why the Regency cannot really exist
given the Virus (and why I didn't buy TNE).  You're correct - they cannot mainta
in a perfect 
seal.  Actually, it's even worse
than you describe; see my upcoming discussions of the Regency's naval problems).
Nor can they defend against misjumps - given several hundred ships set to purpos
ely
misjump, several could easily penetrate the Regency.  There should be several Tr
in's Veil
type occurrences if not a wholesale rampage.

However, the technologic capability has ALWAYS been available as part of the Tra
veller
milieu.

Steve Bonneville says:

>On Deep Space Stations:

>It's possible they don't often make much economic sense.  (Maybe I'll do
>a quick analysis sometime.)  But they might make very good military
>sense, as a refueling depot.  All you need are the hulls for holding
>the LHyd fuel, tanker/tugs to haul them around and fill them up, and
>a parsec or so to hide them in.  I don't know whether the logistical
>assets to support such a venture would be worth tying up or not.

It does, of course depend on your circumstances.  GDW's adventures include cases
of smuggler bases, ancient's bases, and naval bases (The Darrians have a major 
naval base hidden in deep space) as well as a few commercial stations.  Note: 
The question was whether it could be done.  

My comments on COST are trying to point out that it rarely is, because it is qui
te
expensive.  The sole reason the Aslan sought for their route over the great Rift
 was that
(for the clan in question), the only other routes for expansion lead to Imperial
 and Solomani
space.


 John Bucsek says:
 
> Now that we
>are back to somewhat realistic thrusters, I find that I need more
>fuel for my M-drives than for the J-drive.  So if you are willing
>to sacrifice maneuverablity when you exit from jump, most TNE ship
>already have the capability to do a deep space stopover without
>carrying extra fuel.
 
Even in CT & MT, any ship capable of more carrying more than 1 jump's worth of f
uel can
make deep space jumps.   That's stated several places explicitly.

>I disagree that it creates a big problem with the Virus and the
>Regency blockade.  The Virus doesn't have the refueling capability
>to move a large fleet by the way of a deep space stop,

No?  Why not?  As described by GDW, various forms of the Virus are perfectly cap
able of
coordinating a fleet of several hundred vessels (networked over comm links) as e
asily as you move your hands and feet.  These include vessels of all shapes and 
sizes - including space tankers.  So, as Mr Virus, I pop a jump2 fleet to somewh
ere between two stars.  I refuel some vessels from teh tankers - including some 
of the tankers.  The tankers jump back to "vamp space" and refuel.  They come ba
ck to the fleet hole up point, and refuel more of teh fleet.

Some of the vamp fleet (fully loaded) leaps further into Regency space within te
h dark between the stars.  Spare fuel is forwarded to only some ships.  The rest
 are told to wait.  Do this a fwe more times and some ships appear behind the Re
gency's wall and turn on their transmitters.  Uh oh!  For a more elaborate invas
ion, a tanker squadron makes a few leaps back and forth.  It takes time, but if 
the Regency doesn't ever patrol the dark between the stars, they will get their 
fannies wacked.


>It makes even less sense for merchantmen to use smaller J-drives
>as this increases the travel time and decreases the profit.
Unless I had something particularly valuable or time critical someone was paying
 extra for.


>One last point, In Arrival Vengence the ship rendevous with a deep
>space comet for refueling on the way back to the regency.  
>But the location and orbit of the
>comet was a state secret for such an emergency.
Uh, stored in a what? Computer memory or three?  In imperial military computers 
(sure in security sites, but networked).  Mr. Virus can find these too :-)

David Johnson says:

>I've always considered that jump calculations use gravity wells as `targets'.

That's not what various elements of the background material describe, though
I will grant they have some effect - try to jump too close to a grav well and yo
u 
don't come out.  Jump drive is described as going from point A to point B throug
h a medium (jumpspace) other than our space time continuum where the travel time
 is much shorter.  
There's nothing in the mechanics that gives you a bonus or minus 
for trying to get closer or further  from a grav well beyond.  I have to presume
 it doesn't
matter then.  If anything, since if you flub a navigation skill roll (In TNE), m
eaning you used 
less skill than required for success, you come out further away, I presume its e
asier to 
jump further from a star than close to the 100 diam limit.
  
All the targeting information for Navigation is based on your data bank.  Up to 
date
nav data includes information about the orbits and  locations of bodies in the s
tar system. 
I'd imagine that the first fella jumping into s star system comes in well away f
rom the star 
and spends a while observing, so that the next fella will know where is permissa
ble and 
not permissable to jump in.


But I'll grant that for t

>My fleet can probably all emerge in orbit
>about a system's major gas giant but it will have to maneuver afterwards
>to regain its formation.
If your fleet tries jumping into orbit around system X's gas giant, odds are goo
d
they ain't coming out. :-)
The problem is more likely one scale.  Consider interstellar distances.  Now, le
t's add extremely small perturbations in the EXACT attitude of your ship as it e
nters and travels through 
jumpspace.  Things like the speed able spacer Jock Strapp is jogging at while ex
ercising in the ship's corridors, or the effect on the drive mount of engineer K
appappappappadan's boom box while he play Beethoven's 5th.  These have a small e
ffect - enough to move the ship at most a couple hundred klicks - like the space
 generally occupied by a fleet while maneuvering!  Since these are not all known
 in advance (some haven't occurred; what if  engineer K switches to the
Beatles instead (ah, those longhaired Solomani...), they cannot be completely co
mpensated for.  Of course your fleet disperses a bit during jump - it's safer th
an appearing interspersed or appearing close enough to risk collision in those f
irst moments. 

>Jumps to deep space are difficult because there is no gravity well to serve
>as a target. 
But you don't target a gravity well!  Traveller does not include gravity detecto
rs, and certainly not
ones that work at interstellar distances.  However, you are on to something...

> Even if I stage some sort of refueling post it will be
>difficult to get close - the lack of any other significant gravity wells
>in the vicinity helps but I'm still targeting something *much* less
>massive than a star, gas giant or planet.  

I agree with the effect, but not the reasons,  Remember, gravity wells do
not affect the Navigation plot!  Certainly, a station of any size (smaller than 
those
purported to house 1 million or more, but something that size is prohibitively e
xpensive for
a deep space station) will not produce enough of a gravity well to be noticed.
However, as I said before, due to the need to know exactly where gravity well ge
nerators are
(stars, planets, planetoids, etc), known systems are well mapped.  You can targe
t to the
nth degree and appear (with luck) say anywhere within a 10,000 km bubble without
 much
effort because you have a vast body of data available to you, prompting you to a
ccuracy.

In a jump to a deep space point, there are few such references.  So, instead of 
accuracy to
the .000001th degree, you may only be accurate to the .001th degree.  The coordi
nates are just
not that carefully defined in the navigation data until several hundred jumps ha
ve been made, the general jumpspace perturbations along the route have been docu
mented, and any deep space bodies have been located and recorded.

To recap:

It can be done.  It is part of the canon that it has been done.  It will be done
 if the costs justifies it, but that probably won't be very often.

                                        Ted7

------------------------------

End of TML Biweekly
******************
