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Subject: TML biweekly: Msgs 7834-7840 V45#18
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TML biweekly    Wed Jun  1 21:00:02 EDT 1994    Volume 45 : Issue 18

Today's topics:

BUN# =AMN= =DATE====== =FROM==========  =SUBJECT/BODY==========================
 624  7834 31-May-1994 TML Administrat  ADM: Subject prefixes  << [Crossposted 
 624  7835 31-May-1994 CHiggin@aol.com  Reprocessed Algae (retry) << From: Stev
 624  7837 31-May-1994 David Johnson    All: Naval Forces << Gentlesophonts:
 624  7836 31-May-1994 CHiggin@aol.com  Techno-Economic Fleet Size Cycle << Fro
 625  7838 31-May-1994 Steve Charlton/  Glisten; Last Word, I Swear! << In defe
 625  7839 31-May-1994 Jo_Grant.LOTUSI  MT: Aslan on Glisten, think again << Yo
 625  7840 31-May-1994 David Johnson    All: More TCS vs. 5FW << Gentlesophonts

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Bundle: 624
Archive-Message-Number: 7834
Subject: ADM: Subject prefixes 
Reply-To: traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca (TML Administrator)
From: TML Administrator <traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca>
Date: Tue, 31 May 94 09:48:20 PDT


[Crossposted only because of critical interest from both XTML and TML
camps...]

Bruce Pihlamae writes:
> included is a sample format with a 'first cut' of suitable codes.
>
>  Subject Codes must be used at all times. Current allowed values are:
>  
>  (CT)    Classic Traveller rule set       (IMP)   3rd Imperium Era
>  (HG)    High Guard                       (TCS)   Trillion Credit Squadron
> 
>  (MT)    MegaTraveller rule set           (REB)   Rebellion Era
> 
>  (NE)    Traveller New Era rule set       (TNE)   The New Era,
>  (FFS)   Fire Fusion & Steel
>  
>  (ANN)   Announce releases, erata, etc    (GEN)   Non-specific stuff
>  (FLAME) Flame material, things you hate  (ADM)   Administrivia
> 
>  (CAT)   Computer-Aided Traveller         (VDES)  Ship, Vehicle Designs
>  (WDES)  Weapon Designs                   (WORLD) System, World Designs
>  (CHAR)  Character Design
> 
>  (ALTHI) Alternate Histories              ( FICT) Short Stories, Fiction
>  (GM)    Scenarios, GM'ing
> 
> Hope this is of some use ... are we generating too many codes perhaps?
>
> What do you think?

I like it.  How's this?

In order to be appear in the digest, messages must contain one or more
codes (listed below) embedded in the Subject line, seperated from the
rest of the text by a non-alphabetic character. These codes are used by
the digester to create custom, filtered digests. For example, the
following would appear in digests filtered to include Classic Traveller
and 3rd Imperium messages:

        Subject: CT,IMP: How many Ancients can dance on the head of a pin?

_____RULESET______ ______ERA_______  ________GENERAL________ ____DESIGN SIGS____
CT  Classic Trav   IMP 3rd Imperium  ANN   Announcements     VDES Vehicle Design
MT  MegaTraveller  REB Rebellion           Releases, Errata  WDES Weapon Design
HG  High Guard     TNE The New Era   FLAME Flame/Hate Tirade CDES Char Design
NE  New Era Rules  ____FICTION____   ADM   Administrivia     WDES World Design
TCS Trillion       FICT Stories      GEN   General, non-     CAT  Computer Aids
  Credit Squadron  AHIS Alternate          specific stuff
FFS Fire Fusion &       Histories
    Steel          GM   Scenarios

So folks, what do *you* think? Have I misplaced FFS? I think before we
add any more categories, we'll probably want to remove some. I think 21
categories is a good working maximum.

James

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
James Perkins, List Administrator                       Eugene, Oregon, USA
Traveller Mailing List (incl. The New Era)   traveller-request@engrg.uwo.ca
Xboat Traveller Mailing List (Classic & MegaT)   xboat-request@engrg.uwo.ca

------------------------------

Bundle: 624
Archive-Message-Number: 7835
From: CHiggin@aol.com
Date: Tue, 31 May 94 14:12:03 EDT
Subject: Reprocessed Algae (retry)


From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc

>as capture all of the surrounding agricultural worlds.  I'm sure Glisten
>had hydroponics and carniculture plants as internal food sources, but
>there would have been some form of dependence on supplemental outside
>food sources.  Basically, reprocessed algae might keep you
>alive, but probably would not keep you overly happy or healthy.  The

    Reprocessed algae?  Sheesh!  "We of Glisten do not eat 
'reprocessed algae'!  I'll thank you to know that Glisten not only 
feeds itself on the finest foodstuffs from the myriad planets of the 
Imperium, we export crops from our aeroponic habitats to you 
flatlanders on those harsh, dry, foul-air worlds you so love to 
develop!"

    Have you ever seen, in person or in pictures, Disney World's 
Aeroponic gardens at Epcot Center?  All the food served at Epcot 
Center is grown in the aeroponic gardens, in a fraction of the space 
required for dirt-grown crops.  Aeroponic and hydroponic agriculture, 
acre for acre, plant for plant, outproduces conventional agriculture 
by a considerable margin while using LESS water and fertilizer!  And 
this is at TL 8!  No, TL15 Glisten is not going to have a problem 
feeding itself... Aki might, though.

From: A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
>Hmm. Perhaps ideally... :-) It might be fairer to note that the 
> 'elected' representatives only get where they are by lying,
>back-handers, use of the media to portray them as 'nice people', etc.
>[allegedly].  They rarely think

    I see you've heard of Bill Clinton over there, too. >:-|

                                    -- Cynthia





------------------------------

Bundle: 624
Archive-Message-Number: 7837
Date: Tue, 31 May 94 19:10:33 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: All: Naval Forces

Gentlesophonts:

Wow!  I'm still having mail problems but my dip into the ftp pool has
turned up a whole mess of stuff on this naval forces/technology/economics
discussion.  Actually, it's kind of neat seeing it all come together (or
at least being able to recognize the inter-relatedness).  I just wish some
folks wouldn't take things (or *make* things) so personal.


"First, we kill all the rules lawyers."
            - David Johnson [after William Shakespeare]  :-)


From last Wednesday night, Wes Esser <wesley@hd62.haledorr.com> writes:

>               All this talk about naval forces etc set me thinking, so I
>          decided to do an analysis of the class A starports in the Domain
>          ca 1120.

This is great work, Wes!  The reason I've been pursuing this discussion was
to generate this sort of information.  All these folks arguing for different
rules isn't particularly interesting *or* useful.  IMHO, though, efforts
like this are.

>          It does
>          however explain how the Domain could survive at a high tech level:
>          it actually has a strong, high tech industrial base.

See!  This is useful information.  It adds to our understanding of the
Regency (or the Imperium) and is a great contribution to *Shall Not Perish*.

>          What this seems to imply is that the MT figure of 1000 ships per
>          sector is a limit imposed by Imperial Policy, not by the
>          limitations on planetary economies. 

You mean there is another course besides endless rants about one's favorite
rules?  :-)  Once again, we've managed to discover a background issue in
the morass of rules data that exists out there.

>               I think this may shed some light on the continuing discussion
>          about the Sword Worlds.

I do too.  Thanks, Wes, for actually *trying* to reconcile the divergent
rules information rather than merely rejecting out of hand the source that
you disagree with.  (of course, it still doesn't explain the *5FW* counters
for the Sword Worlds . . . .)

>          Ok...so there's my two centicredits worth...

I think it was worth a great deal more.  :-)


Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net> writes:

> David Johnson and Cynthia Higginbotham are engaging in a rather acrimonious
> dispute over which version of Traveller reality we should use to visualize
> fleet conditions in the Imperium.

I'm sorry if it has appeared acrimonious.  That certainly hasn't been my 
intention or impression.  And I really don't care *which* 'reality' we
should accept.  I've been trying to understand *why* we should accept either
one over the other.  IMHO, the ideal situation would be to reconcile *all*
official information.  I recognize that this may not be possible but I
think Wes has shown us that it's less impossible in this case then some
folks think.

> I haven't got time for a detailed answer, but you have to start on the
> basis of accepting that there is no way that 5FW can be reconciled with
> TCS.

Thanks to Wes I don't think we do *have* to start with this assumption.  If
we broaden the discussion beyond mere issues of rules to include the entire
campaign we recognize that *rules* are just a tool that can be used to
facilitate the larger endeavor of the entire campaign background.

> Once you get past that, the reason for not accepting 5FW as the
> model is this:  The ship levels in 5FW are way too low for any reasonable
> bottom up estimate based on population or economic activity. 

See, here we are again.  What's the value of basing the decision merely
upon 'rules' data like population and 'economics'?  If we remember that
this is an entire role-playing campaign, we see there are other aspects
like politics and culture to help us explain these 'facts'.
 
> I agree with Steve Higginbotham, who said that 5FW was best viewed as a
> "simplified" representation of the "real" world, since no one would want to
> push 10,000 counters around.

This may be but you have to admit it is based upon a 'rules-only' point
of view.

> Rob Dean
> (stirring in his long hibernation)

Glad to see you haven't left us for XTML (yet?).

Peace,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

Bundle: 624
Archive-Message-Number: 7836
From: CHiggin@aol.com
Date: Tue, 31 May 94 14:11:49 EDT
Subject: Techno-Economic Fleet Size Cycle

From: Grant Sinclair <grant@cleese.apana.org.au>

>To further explain the apparent inconsistency, there is the maintenance
>overhead aspect of the TCS rules (10% for operational ships and 1% for
>ships in ordinary).  Both the economics of shipbuilding and published
>sources surely show that there would be many ships in ordinary.  I have

    Based on TCS campaign experience, this is true.

>not seen this taken into account in some of the discussions.
>(Incidentally, does anyone know why these are so high? Operational
>civilian ships only need 0.1%).

    TCS maintenance costs include stuff like crew payrolls, military 
pensions, life support costs, berthing costs, bases, training schools, 
etc, etc, etc, that are paid for separately from "annual maintenance" 
when using the role-playing rules (CT Book 2, High Guard, MT, TNE) for 
ships.  

>In Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium (which I know is not the
>best source of designs in the world, but it is official)

"Shattered Ships" is utterly worthless as a source of ANY information,
official or unofficial.  It is so riddled with typos that EVEN GDW has
apologized for it; furthermore, the ships that aren't typographical 
errors violate the published rules six ways from Sunday.  Ignore it.

Hans & David:

>Except that they represent a stagnation of the economy that is quite
>incredible to me. It's the 'slow' I object to. One TL in umpteen 
>centuries is not slow, it's moribund.

    Yes.  I excuse this rate of progress in most of the Imperium by 
chalking it up to "Vilani Cultural Influence"; the Sword Worlds has no 
such excuse.  Rather the opposite:  technophile Terran cultural 
heritage, surrounded by enemies, constantly fighting wars.  You need a 
really good explanation why Sacnoth isn't TL21 already...  

Feudal Technocracy:

Hans:
>I realize that I assume that the word 'feudal' in 'feudal 
>technocracy' has a semantic content close to the normal definition of
>the word and is not a mere buzz-word.

    So do I. If anything, the "technocracy" part is the buzz-word.  
David, what you keep describing sounds like a plain old Corporate 
state (Gov 1) to me.  Frankly, a true "Feudal Technocracy" as 
described in the CT/MT/TNE definition is either extremely rare or 
describes the standard Vilani bureaucracy when it is still small 
enough to be functional.  Most non-Vilani Gov 5 worlds are probably 
just High-Tech Feudalisms, a la Piper's Gram, or the worlds of the 
Keltiad (Patricia McNeally).  

    To further muddy the issue, I have somewhere an issue of High 
Passage or JOTAS (I forget which), in which Mark Miller describes the 
Traveller government codes.  He said that these government codes DO 
NOT actually describe the whole government, but how it appears to 
outsiders (travellers) that must deal with it (i.e., what kind of 
government hassles your PCs get...).  Don't pin too much on a single 
UPP digit; set up your world's government anyway you like, and pick a 
UPP digit that approximates it.  There will be several to chose from.  
Is the U.S.  a representative democracy (gov 4) (based on government 
structure as outlined in the Constitution), a civil service 
bureaucracy (gov 8) (based on how the Federal government is supposed 
to work), an impersonal bureaucracy (gov 9) (based on how the Federal 
government usually works) or a charismatic oligarchy (gov C)(the 
country is really run by a relatively small coterie of elected and 
appointed officials who know each other, pat each other's backs, and 
get the job by looking good in 30-second sound bites)?  

    As with TechLevel definitions, GDW created endless fodder for 
arguments by mixing structural definitions (Representative Democracy, 
Tech level of a given artifact), with procedural or functional 
definitions (impersonal bureaucracy, production level of a world).  

When doing detailed looks at a world, I find that GURPS Space has 
better random-generation tables for government type than Traveller. 
The government descriptions are more informative, too.

David:
>I'll give you this is you give me an example of a downward turn in your
>cycles, otherwise I'm sticking with the scientific method.  :-)

You are confusing "scientific method" and Occam's Razor.  OR is not 
"scientific method", it is simply a useful heuristic for sorting out 
multiple explanations.  It is not necessarily correct, either.

Steve Bonneville:

>Somebody asked recently why so many old-time "classic" Traveller 
>players are complaining about the rules changes, because they'd never
>seen AD&D players react like this when AD&D Second Edition came
>out.  Well, my friend, that's because TSR didn't do something 
>that at times I could describe with a pungent four-letter Anglo-Saxon
>word to the rules.  Right now is one of those times, but I'm
>restraining myself.  AD&D 2nd Ed.  *is* AD&D.

    Yep.  I can take a 1st ed.  AD&D character, monster or scenario 
and drop it *unchanged* into a 2nd ed.  AD&D campaign.  Any necessary 
changes are trivial enough to do in my head as I encounter them -- for 
the most part.  The only exceptions are dragons and the "d" critters 
- -- most of them went thru upscaling in combat abilities and hit dice, 
and scenarios involving them have to be rebalanced.
    To drop a CT/MT scenario into TNE, I have to redo the NPCs, the 
equipment, the animals, and the ships.  All that is left is the plot, 
and most of the MT stuff had really poor plots.  In some cases, the 
change from unlimited delta-V thrusters (or CT non-specific "maneuver 
drive") to limited delta-V reaction drives totally throws the plot out 
the window.  Let's not even mention that if you use the TNE "Virus" 
background, all the old 3rd Imperium background material is worse than 
useless.  TNE is an entirely NEW game with the Traveller name still 
attached...  

From: "Les Howie"  <lhowie@192.219.29.90>

>    2. The frontier war happens in a small corner of a huge empire.
>Larger forces may deployed against greater threats, or as a part of
>core imperial politics.

    This may be true of, say, Ley sector, but the Spinward Marches 
faces one of the 3rd Imperium's two biggest enemies, and GDW material 
has repeatedly stated that the Spinward Marches, Deneb, and Corridor 
Fleets are *OVERSIZED* because of the Zhodani and Vargr threats.  
There is no greater threat besides the Solomani, and GDW material has 
depicted the 3I deploying more forces against the Zho/Vargr front than 
the Solomani Rim -- apparently, the Solomani were trounced during the 
Rim War...  <sarcasm intended>.  

                        -- Cynthia Higginbotham


    "Q:  What is the difference between the BATF and the Gestapo?"
    "A:  BATF agents speak English."



------------------------------

Bundle: 625
Archive-Message-Number: 7838
From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc
Date: 31 May 94 17:44:36 
Subject: Glisten; Last Word, I Swear!

In deference to James Kundert, I shall only make this one long-winded
refutation to Hans Rancke's response to my 5/27 post, which was in
response to everybody elses posts of the past couple of weeks, etc.
(Yeek!  This has been going on for a while)

First - I have a terrible feeling that _Ihatei of Doom_ will soon become
a trademark.  I wish I could think of clever things like that.   It could be
the second in a string of movies about a famous interstellar archaeologist
wandering the Spinward Marches.  In the first feature, Rhylanor James
and the Lost Oytrip, our hero discovers an ancient device designed to
communicate directly with Grandfather, only to have it stolen by the
perfidious Zhodani.  The second, Rhylanor James and the Ihatei of Doom
finds our hero saving the Domain of Deneb from a secret cult of Aslan
worshippers, with the help of a somewhat tubby Newt by the name of
Slick Round.  The final installment, Rhylanor Jones and the Last
Emperor finds our hero travelling to Usdiki to find the whereabouts of
Strephon's Cloning Machine, with the help of Dr. Quentin James (who is of
course secretly Rhylanor's father).  On the way, Rhylanor alienates an
entire army of Emperor worshippers, who do their best to stop our hero
out of a fear that mass production of Strephons will severely lower his
market value.

Sorry, I digress.  Long weekends are good for the soul! 

There are a few problems with Hans arguments.  The most obvious one
 (and the least satisfying as this is the source of all the hubbub) is this:

The Aslan conquered Glisten subsector, therefore the Aslan were capable
of conquering Glisten subsector.

This is all well and good, but how?  Hans Rancke points out that

>Aslan Ihatei do not have the strenght to stand against even a modes
>Imperial fleet  Split up and spread out ... they become even easier to deal
>with.

I was initially inclined to agree with this statement, but it is based on two
assumptions that may not be true:

1.  The Imperium had a modest fleet available to stop the Aslan
2.  The Aslan fleet was quantitatively and qualitatively weaker than
      the local Imperial forces.

Remember, at this point the Domain of Deneb (DD) has been cut off
from the Imperium, and has been fighting a war with large-scale
vargr invasions and pirate raids along the coreward and trailing borders.
This invasion was serious enough to allow the loss of Depot in Deneb
Sector, a major source of IN reserve forces and equipment.  These
raids began before the Ihatei invasion, and many forces from the
Trojan Reach area were likely drawn into the conflict coreward, leaving
frontier defenses in that traditionally quiet area severly weakened.

As the ease of spread of the Rebellion has shown, there was significant
discord in the Imperium.  It is possible that while the fleets of DD did
not rally to Lucan's or Dulinor's call, many individual waships might
have done so.  Others may have seen an opportunity to turn bandit,
join up with the Vilani or Antareans, or left the Imperium altogether.
Significant naval forces would be occupied with internal security duties,
further weakening frontier defenses.

As to the strength of the Ihatei, do not base your assumptions on human
or Imperial norms.  The Aslan are a warrior culture.  This means the Aslan
will devote significantly greater portions of the GAP (Gross Aslan Product)
to military equipment.  A warrior strives for the best weapons he can get,
so much of that money will go to ships.  I obviously have no good
historical precedents (not many starships in the middle ages) but I do
point out the relatively large size of military forces in the Germanies in
the 19th Century.  I would not be surprised if the Alsan could field a
military two to three times the size of a comparable sized human empire.

As to tech levels; don't assume that a TL12 or 13 society has any real
technological uniformity.  As I point out above, the Aslan are a militant
race.  The females are likely to be the scientific brains of the region,
but the funding for scientific research will ultimately be controlled
by the various (male) clan heads.  While the males will not concern
 themselves with financial details, they will expect a useful return on the
investment of clan funds.  Picture this scenario:  Two female Aslan
 scientists, Alwaro and Elwaro, go before the Clan's head, Kytharako,
advised by his cheif finance officer Lyhara, a female.

Alwaro:  Honored Sire, I seek funds for a project.
Kytharako (looking bored):  What is it now?  Another study of (hiss)
                                                           Leaf-eaters?
Alwaro (looking abashed):  Yes, Honored Sire.
Kytharako:  Such talk bores me!  Be gone from my presence!
                         (looking at Elwaro)  Another scientist?  I suppose you 
wish
                         to study snowflakes?
Elwaro:  Your words are true, Honored Sire.
Kytharako:  Whay should I give you more than I gave Alwaro?
Lyhara:  Honored Sire!  Do you not remember?  Elwaro presented you
                   with the new plasma focusing ring last year.  She has greatly
                   enhanced the power of our house!
Kytharako:  What has this to do with snowflakes?
Elwaro:  Noble Sir, the ways of science are strange.  By studying the
                  crystals of nature, perhaps I can learn to make better laser
                  mirrors, and increase the range of our clan's strength.
Kytharako:  Khhrrr, you are wiser than many would realize.  The money
                          is yours.

What I am trying to get at with this pathetic attempt at virtual roleplay is
that Alsan science will focus on weapons technology as a means of
fiscal survival.  I would image Aslan weapons technology might be 1 or
2 levels higher than their general tech level.  A TL12 squadron would be
an unequal challenge to a TL15 squadron, but three TL12 squadrons with
TL14 weapons would be easily an equal match to the TL15 squadron.

Supply Lines:  The Ihatei are coming to DD to settle and stay.  They are
probably expecting to live off the wealth of the new territory rather than
surviving off of a tenuous supply line.  Given the rapidity of their conquest
of the Trojan Reach, I am sure they managed to seize a respectable
industrial base; certainly enough to maintain a steady supply of
ammunition.

Food Supplies:  While Glisten might be able to raise bulk food supplies
readily enough, there are many trace elements (certain minerals and
vitamins) that do not lend themselves to hydroponic agriculture.  Since
I am writing this at TL8, I have no idea if a better method exists at TL15,
but the fragility of these closed ecosystems in Traveller leads me to
beleive this is still a problem.  The various laws of entropy make it
clear that a sealed system cannot sustain itself indefinitely.  Blockade
running might slow the collapse of the Glisten artificial ecosystem,
but that will end once the Aslan roll up the systems around Glisten.  With
no base to mount a releif effort from, the Imperium is not going to be
able to releive Glisten.  I think the Rebellion Sourcebook data strongly
infers that the DD was unable to mount effective counterattacks into
Ihatei territory until well after the loss of Glisten.  If a counterattack was
impossible (for whatever reason) a releif mission to beseiged Glisten
would be equally wasteful of time and effort.

In your last paragraph, you make your strongest point: the Ihatei have
to hold what they seize.  Frankly, I think that is not going to be possible
for the Aslan, due to their small population base.  Their only chance is
to win the hearts and minds of humans on occupied worlds, and the
occasional nuclear or biological attack on DD worlds is going to make
that very hard for the Ihatei.  Hmmm... maybe we need to start up a new
furor/discussion frenzy on human resistance actions in the occupied
territories.

Thank you for your response, Hans.  Despite the hammering above, I
though your arguments were very good.  In all honesty, I think the 
battle lines in GDW's Rebellion Sourcebook were mostly random, and
intended to add a threat of danger for some complacent old Spinward
Marches campaigns.  So please dont think I am picking on you; I am
always this obnoxious after a three-day weekend.

scharlto@avalon.com

This does not reflect the views of my employers (who say I am
ALWAYS this obnoxious).


------------------------------

Bundle: 625
Archive-Message-Number: 7839
Date: Tue, 31 May 94 21:41:57 EDT
From: Jo_Grant.LOTUSINT.LOTUS@CRD.lotus.com
Subject: MT: Aslan on Glisten, think again

Yo Folkes,
        I've vaguely watched some of the debate on the takeover
of Glisten. I don't have my spinward marches map with me on
this trip so some of the following points may be off but bear
with me. The one crucial fault I find in most for the arguments
is this:
        STOP THINKING LIKE AN ASLAN MALE.
        THINK LIKE AN ASLAN FEMALE.
        I think it is easy enough to prove, as many have done, that
a military takeover of Glisten by an Ihatei fleet is laughable at
best. However if you think about it from a non-military point of
view it may not be so funny...

        Picture this: An Aslan male sits at home having breakfast
with his four wives and associated residents. The wind blows
through the veranda and a bird gurgles in a nearby cage. The third
setting of tea has been brewed, stewed, and served.
        Husband: "Wife #1. I am experiencing... the urge."
        Wife #1 quickly considers the impact on her schedule versus
the political advantage of having a daughter to marry off (Remember
the women are the medical technicians. Fertility treatment and
control? You bet!) Lightning quick whisker flicking and ear movements
pass between the four wives as the negotiating starts all unseen
by the husband who is inhaling the vapours of his tea. "My Lord."
Comments #1 verbally, It's been... so long."
        Husband: "Yes, but. I remember you speaking to me about
biological determinism. It is simply something I must do. The
Imperium will be a great enemy." He serenely takes a sip of tea.
        All the body-language fencing between the wives stops
instantly. "But they would outnumber us 50 to 1 and they have
a much more advanced fleet!" said Wife #4 who hadn't learned the
bloodymindedness of men yet.
        "Yes, it will be a great fight." He blows little bubbles in
his cooling tea. "Number four, you will arrange a meeting with
my brother's family, Number three, you will see to the maintenance
of the ships and thingies, Number two, um. Well, Number one, you
know about these things, see to it." He then goes back to
blowing bubbles in his tea. Well pleased with himself.

        Aslan males seldom think without acting. Whereas Aslan
females seldom act without thinking. In this sort of situation
the women are faced with the irremediable bloodymindedness of
the men and take what contingencies they can. Delays can be laid
but the inevitability of it all has to be catered for.
        The prime focus of a high-status woman (wife or sister)
is that of a corporate executive. The forces she has to bear are
not military. One family unit may not present much military or
economic power but given that the male Aslan "itch" for land is
not an isolated occurrence there are likely to be quite a few
wanting to seek their death amongst the rather superior Imperials.
For every male with enough ships and arms to even think of
getting to the Imperium there are at least two or more wives and
female relatives running the economic concerns that support the
unit.
        With the above scenario repeated several times over the women
are going to start getting together to pool their resources.
The Aslan have, on average, a lower tech level than the Imperium.
This means that their money is worth less, or, more importantly,
an Imperial credit goes further buying Aslan goods. Pushing
trade links into the Spinward marches, naturally heading toward
Glisten, trade centre of that area, is facilitated for the
Aslan because of this. Effectively exporting cheap Aslan labour
does create a trade deficit but remember this is the women's
equivalent of moving the economy onto a war footing. The deficit
can be padded by reinvesting the capital in high-tech Imperial
goods. These can be sold further back in Aslan territory and
much of the loss recuperated. It is a long trade link but here
the women are converting capital reserves into economic investment.
Considering the alternative is putting the money into military
hardware that is almost certainly going to get blown away it
is the better choice.
        So we have the Aslan pushing their goods in Glisten
sub-sector and creating an export market for Imperial goods.
An aid to this process are all the Aslan who have moved there
looking for land pre-rebellion quite peacefully which is
well documented. Don't just think of the Aslan males squatting
quite happily on their new sandboxes but again, for every
man there are several women conducting and setting up business.
        Ireland experienced something similar when it took in
400 of the Vietnamese boat people. Although they had no money
they came from a middle class background. In a country where
unemployment hits 21% in areas after five years not a single
one was not working. Most in businesses they had created
themselves
        If Imperials are reluctant to buy into the new Aslan trade
opportunities the recent settlers certainly will. And again,
many of the have settled quite peaceably and probably have
full citizen rights which enables them to act as a local agent
for the entrapenurial Aslan.
        The Imperium is unlikely to get too protectionist about
the trade either. With echoes of the rebellion bouncing around,
the markets are bound to be bouncy and domestic Imperial
investors cautious. People usually vote with their pockets and
if strong Aslan trade looks to bring chance for prosperity to
an otherwise depressed economy then it becomes a very attractive
option.
        So as Aslan trade influence waxes so too follows legal
and political influence. Generous donations to parties and
co-operation in paying taxes are likely to influence politicians
toward more favourable Aslan laws. More settlers? No problem.
Plenty of Aslan-Imperial cultural exchanges.
        More and more Aslan come. Invaders? No! Settlers! Lots
of nice press photos of local system defence navies welcoming
joint Aslan patrols of their system. With the uncertainties of
the Rebellion echoes doubtless self-defence is high on the mind
of many citizens with the pull back of components of the Imperial
fleet.
        The Alsan settle on previously uninhabited or unused areas
(check your charts, there's plenty). How do they support 
themselves? They just have to continue as the women started.
Running the economy. I've just been through Hong Kong, Taiwan and
Singapore on the little (!) business trip. You don't need
natural resources to be incredibly prosperous!
        The Hivers may excel in manipulation but you have to
remember: three quarters of the Aslan population (the women)
consider economics and corporate management as the elite profession
of choice. ("What do you want to be when you grow up, little girl?"
"I want to be a corporate investment strategist!")
        The Scout service may have marked Glisten down is being
controlled my the Aslan but it is likely that this would have
been a surprise to Glisten itself!


        The limousine picks up the Aslan husband from the domestic
spaceport and brings him to his house via a long circutorious
route across his new lands. His four wives await him on the veranda.
        He smells and blows bubbles in his tea. "It isn't quite
what I expected."
        All the wives look concerned in unison. "Are you displeased
in any way, my lord", asks #3.
        He concentrates, takes a long sip, and then tries to remember
what he was saying. "Well, I just thought there would be lots of
guns and things."
        Wife #1 steps forward. "My lord, I could not have your serenity
disturbed as such. The Imperials are not worthy opponents. We merely
arranged a leveraged takeover of some local interests with clan
capital and ..."
        "Pah", interrupted the husband. "None of this woman's talk."
He inhales his tea once again, his eyes surveying the landscape.
All his. "I wonder if there is good hunting..."
        The bird in the nearby cage gurgles.



Jo Grant. jo_grant@crd.lotus.com
------------------------------

Bundle: 625
Archive-Message-Number: 7840
Date: Tue, 31 May 94 20:53:15 CDT
From: djohnson@geds01.jsc.nasa.gov (David Johnson)
Subject: All: More TCS vs. 5FW

Gentlesophonts:

"In argument, truth is discovered."
          -Russian proverb

I think we're narrowing in on some truths here.  Thanks to all who've been
*contributing* (as opposed to those who've just flamed).  :-)

From Thursday night (?), Hans Ranke <rancke@diku.dk> writes:

> Analyse the economic strength of the 30 billion people in the Sword Worlds. 

> Now match the figure you arrive at against 
> the figure TCS gives you and against the 42 battleships _RS_ gives you.
> Which is closest? By how many orders of magnitude?

Okay, this might work (but I ain't gonna do it!).  There seems to be much room
for variation here though.  Isn't the '42' *RS* figure already within two
orders of magnitude of what *TCS* might suggest (~5000 'capital' ships)?
I would guess the 42-ship figure itself already has something like a plus
or minus one order of magnitude uncertainty.  This particular course might
lead to nothing more than a flame war over assumptions.

> >What I'm asking is why you choose to accept *TCS* data over *RS* data?
> 
> They make more sense.

I guess I'd like to see something along the lines of what you've proposed
above rather than just a statement that asks us to accept this as a given.
Fortunately, Cynthia makes a stab at this in a bit.

> BOTH_TCS_ and _5FW_ are based on the same reality. A few simple calculations 
> show that that can't be true. Now what?

Good question.  I certainly don't have the answer!

> And you just the other day agreed with me that the only faintly reasonable
> explanation for this is that the Imperials blundered massively and didn't
> fight the ihatei with anything approaching an important Impy force.

Yes, I agreed.  So one course is just to say "A ha!" and congratulate
ourselves on catching GDW with their pants down around their ankles.  
Another, possibly more interesting, course might consider that Norris is
an even more incredible strategic thinker than we've thought and thus
he *conceeded* these regions to the *ihatei* knowing they could be 
assimilated and used later against the Vargr, or Lucan or whatever threat
Deneb (and later the Regency) might face.


Les Howie <lhowie@192.219.29.90> writes:

> Subject: Ship Designations
> 
> I am hardly a TLC cultist, but I do have an answer for that one: NO.

Hmmmm.  There seems to be some disagreement here.  Are we headed for the
great TCS schism?  :-)

> when I 
> start FF&S design, I plan to stuff the whole mess for a new set of functional
> designations that have some relation to real tactical employment.

I hope you'll share it with us.


Cynthia Higginbotham <CHiggin@aol.com> writes:

> As usual, most of my arguments are with Dave Johnson... :-)

Yeah, yours and everyone else's!  :-)

>     If you think the modern or future world has nothing to learn from 
> the military geniuses of the past,

Nope, I don't think this at all.  (I've read *Art of War* too and I liked
it so much I there's a Dolphin mercenary named Sun-Tzu Sharkkiller in my
Earth Colonies campaign.  Nevertheless, I don't think USMC commanders
have beheaded anyone who disobeyed orders lately!)  My point was that
much of what we accept today about the actual conduct of warfare will
change through seven tech levels even if many of the underlying concepts
are timeless.

> IT MAKES NO SENSE for worlds to build a tiny fraction of the 
> Navy they are capable of building, especially when their "lives, 
> fortunes and sacred honor" are threatened

Good points all.  As far as I'm concerned you've made the point that Hans
was suggesting above.  Can we go on now to figure out what a 'typical'
fleet and squadron in the Regency might look like?  Can we determine what
the total military (navy and army) forces of the Regency are?  This was
my intention way back when.

> >You know someone with 10,000 years of space combat experience?  :-)
> 
>     You're being silly.  I can go to my bookcase and pull out two 
> military works by generals dead over 2000 years

Yes, yes, I know.  I know the *Imperium* has this access.  What I was
questioning was your apparent claim that somehow we 20th Century Humans
(specifically you) had access to it as well.  I thought you had made this
comment in an effort to justify your claims about the 'reasonableness'
of your *TCS* figures.  If I just misunderstood you let's save the
bandwidth and just forget this particular point.  (Everyone take note:
if you hear no more on this point it means *I* was mistaken!)  :-)

> You asked this already.  In the same letter.  See above.

I kept asking this question because IMHO everyone was just saying we should
ignore the *5FW*/*RS* information merely because it contradicted *TCS*.
Being asked to accept that as a matter of faith was getting a little
tiring.

>     There is *at least* a one-day "jump lag" between you posting a 
> letter, and all the responses to it coming in.... and you asked this 
> question already.

Good point.  I'll try to keep this in mind and stay 'temporally 
synchronized'.  :-)

> >    What about types/classes themselves?  Is there some finer
> >breakdown than battles, cruisers, carriers, escorts, etc.?
> 
>     Yes. Tonnages are approximate, based on classes from Supplement 9,
> and from memory.  Classes are usually based on size and intended use.

Here it is again folks: the Great TCS Schism!  :-)  (Please, don't flame
me TCS-ites!  I really don't care whether there is or isn't a
breakdown.  It's enough to know there is no clear answer.)

At least we've got a 'fictional' religious group to insult now!  Curse
those blasted TCS-ites!  May they rot on the *5FW* board map!

But seriously, this has been some good work.  Thanks to everyone who
has contributed.  Maybe we can develop a consistent system:

>     And I have no idea what a Traveller Frigate would be good for 
> (spatial equivalent?)  In any case, the type names are chosen by the 
> military based on intended use, not by the designer.

This is in line with what Les said above.  Can we work out a series of
ship classes here based upon what he calls "real tactical employment"?

Peace,

David Johnson
Houston, Texas, USA

------------------------------

End of TML Biweekly
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