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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 10 July 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 233

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Sylean Federation and Vland
         2. Re: Corn Dogs
         3. Re: [T96#228] Corn Dogs
         4. Possible Traveller E-Mag
         5. Re: The Iridium Standard
         6. Re: Possible Traveller E-Mag
         7. Re: Is the Imperium an impossibility? (Was: The Iridium Standard)
         8. Re: The Iridium Standard
         9. Re: The Iridium Standard
        10. Re: Corn Dogs (urp)
        11. Assorted
        12. Re: Possible Traveller E-Mag
        13. Re: Corn Dogs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:26:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Sylean Federation and Vland

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>Perhaps, but the great expansion began with the widespread use of TL 12 by
>the Imperium.  In the years before dawn, traders were probably scattering
>throughout Core and Fornast Sectors.  But if you look at the MT Imperial
>Encyclopedia, inside cover, the "Wars of the Imperium" map shows the Vilani
>Pacification Campaign to be a huge affair.  I'm curious though, where do we
>see pre-Dawn contact between the SF and the Vilani?

Okay, I looked at this, and it's muddy.  MT materials indicate that by Dawn,
the SF had "extended control to what is now the edge of Core sector" (in
_Imperial Encyclopedia_).  DGP materials state that Vland was the initial
target of Cleon's Campaign, joining the Federation in -30, and that long-
range scouts had reached there as early as -495.  Trivia: Cleon would be
27 years old in -30.  The Pacification Campaigns of Artemsus on the map
show a clear, fighting-free route between Sylea and Vland, but I'm not 
sure how the area jump routes work.

Messing this up further, _Imperial Encyclopedia_ also says on page 8, that
Cleon "succeeded in forming a government that controlled, with a velvet-
gloved fist, nearly 100 subsectors".  That's substantially more than Core
sector.  Furthermore, there's some signs that even in a game context, some
of the early Imperial history is not clear to the citizens of 1100; for 
instance, the situation with Cleon the Weak and Artemsus Lentuli, the early
history of some megacorporations like Tukera Lines, and so forth.

The "velvet-gloved fist" comment I found particularly interesting....

  Steve Bonneville
  <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>
 

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 16:48:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs

> I'm sorry if I confused some people I don't own a copy of "Sneaks and 
>Geeks" so I'm quoting directly out of the TNE novel "To Dream of Chaos."
>
>The doctor has just eaten a corn dog and things that the Hiver's were 
>pretty inventive for putting cheese inside the dog.
>
>"Did you enjoy it?"
>"Yes, I did, thank you."
>"How surprising.  Most humans profess to find them disgusting."
>"What's in them?"
>"Nothing toxic, I assure you.  It is simply a variety of parastic 
>segmented worm, much like your terran leeches, batter-dipped and fried."
>"Ungh."
>
>Well the conversation goes on from there to describe the life cycle of 
>the worm etc.  Its on pages 77-78 for those of you who are interested.

Now that you mention this, I remember it.  Does it specifically state that
the worm is a corndog, or is that just implied?  I seem to remember that H&I
said that Hiver were herbivores.  I don't know how much certainty of trust
can be placed in the novels.  I enjoyed the novels as books, but I found
some things that I didn't think fit with the TNE universe.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 17:42:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#228] Corn Dogs

T::>LIAM:  A corn dog is what some people call a pogo. Basically a weenie on
 ::>a stick covered in batter and deep-fried.  Mmm...I can feel my arteries
 ::>closing up just thinking about it.  I have no idea why such a thing would
 ::>be funny, I've always considered them a _very_ serious matter, especially
 ::>when you throw them at a planet at .1 c or build radical computer designs
 ::> which are EMP-resistant from them :-).  (Runs, ducks for cover...)

 Is this where we start a discussion on whether C.S.Lewis's
 character Aslan would have condoned Virus-infected corn-dogs
 dropping polymer-currency-coated EMP-causing rocks at 0.1C on
 whatever planet it was that San*Klass got started on?

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 þ OLXWin 1.00b þ People who live in glass houses shouldn't.


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 96 17:42:00 -0500
Subject: Possible Traveller E-Mag

  Depending on getting a supplemental Internet provider at a
  reasonable rate (necessary because this idea is definitely in
  a grey area at best from my primary ISP), I may be able to set
  up a completely Web-based Traveller magazine/encyclopedia.  If
  it goes through, the RICE archives will be subsumed into it.
  I do, however, want feedback on this.

  I don't plan on charging for it.  I would like others to write
  for it, the same kind of stuff that might be considered for
  JTAS.  The problem is, naturally, I can't pay (that makes it
  _definitely_ a business, which means taxes and red tape with
  my employer - the NYPD is very touchy about "off duty
  employment").

  When/If it gets closer to reality, I'll work up some
  submission guidelines.  They'll probably be a lot like the
  JTAS SGs.

  What I'd like to know:

  * Would people here be willing to write for it?

  * What would you like to see in it?

  * What should I do to avoid stepping on Imperial Games's toes?

  * What do you think of the idea in general?

  * What other comments do you have?

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 þ OLXWin 1.00b þ What's this? I though DOS BOOT was a movie!


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 17:33:34 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

> From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
> Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 11:29:09 -0500 (CDT)
> 
> Quoth "Cynthia/Steve", Dragoness Eclectic:
> > 'Steven Bonneville <bonnevil@itlabs.umn.edu>' wrote: 
> > >Well, I could get out my economics book and give you the technical reasons
> > >why most countries are off the gold standard, but.... 
> >  
> > Once you wade through the technical hand-waving, the REAL reason 
> > most countries are off the gold standard is so that they can rob 
> > the populace through inflation and deficit spending. 
> 
> Aha!  A Libertarian in our midst!  :-)

Not really.  *Real* libertarians don't support *any* government-imposed 
monetary 'standard'.  You want to trade in gold?  Fine.  Some 
enterprising company want to make standardized gold coins?  Coolness.  
Major banks like to issue currency based on their assets?  More power to 
them.  Just keep the damgubment *out* of it!

Interestingly, in the early years of the U.S., most currency in
circulation was issued by private and state banks, not the federal
government.  Folks doing inter-regional business would have large books
containing information on how to validate an alleged note from some
distant bank -- and, of course, forgery was rampant.  It wasn't until
after the Civil War that the federal government restricted money
production to itself.  At first this was not pegged to any metal, leading
to the 'greenback inflation' of the 1870s.  The federal notes were called
'greenbacks' as the punchline to a joke -- "What are they backed with? 
Green ink!"  Finally, the feds went to a gold standard, and then a
bimetallic standard of gold and silver, in a fixed value ratio, and with
silver coinage limited in extent.  When massive silver lodes were
discovered out West, there was pressure from Western interests to allow 
free coinage of silver, and to increase its value relative to gold...this 
would have led to a freer money supply, helping out farmers during a bad 
midwestern depression in the 1880s and 90s.  Hence William Jennings 
Bryan's immortal "Cross of Gold" speech.

Ever wondered why those cents-off coupons are always marked with a 
monetary exchange value (in the USA)?  Because they're dangerously close 
to currency -- no intrinsic value, but exchangeable for things that *are* 
valuable.  They'd be illegal -- competing currency -- if they weren't 
pegged to the value of the US dollar.

The relevance of all this to Traveller economics is left as an exercise 
for the student. :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:12:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Possible Traveller E-Mag

On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, JEFF ZEITLIN wrote:

>   Depending on getting a supplemental Internet provider at a
>   reasonable rate (necessary because this idea is definitely in
>   a grey area at best from my primary ISP), I may be able to set
 If you pay for additional disk space($5/meg/year) I'd be happy to host it
here, I just don't have the $ to front more then like 1 or 2 megs.

>   * Would people here be willing to write for it?
 Yes, most definitley.

>   * What would you like to see in it?
 Adventures(since space when your dealing with text isn't a prob)
 Equipment guides
 Ship designs<grin>
 Maybe a "god speaks" portion from someone at IG
 And place descriptions, maybe artwork too.

>   * What should I do to avoid stepping on Imperial Games's toes?
 If it's free, I don't think they can really complain. Just credit all
their copyrights.

>   * What do you think of the idea in general?
 I like it :)

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:41:32 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Is the Imperium an impossibility? (Was: The Iridium Standard)

On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

[HUGE snip of talk of the Iridium Standard, which I address in another msg.]

> Folks, if you want to know the truth, I doubt an empire the size of
> the Imperium could be put together and endure very long.  Travel and
> communication times are just too long.  It would have to *very* loose,
> more Commonwealth (if not Common Market) than Empire.  I'd say a few
> sectors would be about the largest *maintainable* size, maybe a couple
> of months to travel from an edge to the center.
> 
> How's this for a new topic to discuss? <g>

Sounds good to me. :)  I hope it doesn't become a flame war, though.

It's hard to say what size of a maintainable empire can be sustaind for 
a good length of time.  The only real examples we have are the Roman 
Empire and the empire largely created by Genghis Kahn. At least, those 
two seem most relevant to the discussion, IMO.

In both cases, transportation was a great factor.  And, again in both 
cases, great pains were taken to ensure as speedy and reliable of 
transportation (and, therefore, communication) as possible.  

Can someone provide figures for the time lag from the seat of these 
empires to the furthest reaches, at their greatest?  

Any other relevant examples spring to mind?

Anyway, that should get us started on the discussion. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 18:50:23 -0800
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On 10 Jul 96 at 13:29, Dragoness Eclectic spewed:

> Once you wade through the technical hand-waving, the REAL reason 
> most countries are off the gold standard is so that they can rob 
> the populace through inflation and deficit spending. 
>  
>                       --Cynthia 

Untrue...  Whether 1 bases their currency on the gold standard or 
not, inflation and deficit spending are still bugaboos...most 
countries went off the gold standard when it became obvious that it 
was restricting the supply of currency to the point where it was 
causing deflation...which it did a lot of in the Depression...  Any 
economist with any brains will tell you that deflation can be as 
ruinous as inflation...  It's just that we have more experience with 
inflation in recent times...

The Roman Empire in part was wrecked by a ruinous inflation in later 
centuries...they never left a standard based on precious metals...

As for deficit spending, governments have been doing that for 
ages...it didn't just magically start happening in the 30's when 
everybody went off the gold standard...  Remember Louis XVI?  
He lost his head because he spent the French treasury into massive 
debt financing the American Revolution.  Britain nearly went bankrupt 
in 1910's because they'd spent a good chunk of money on social 
programs, and didn't have a whole lot left to finance that little thing
called World War I...

Hell, there's not even a real good correlation between inflation and
deficit spending...the US economy is a good example of that...  The 
deficit amounts to about 10-15% of GNP, but inflation hovers at about 
5%...

Regardless of what a currency is based on, whether it be faith, gold, 
salt, or ivory (all of which have been used at 1 time or another by 
somebody on Earth), the people still have to believe its worth 
something...  If somebody had found gold nuggets by the ton on say for 
example Australia, economies would have been wrecked wholesale in the 
18th century...

Actually, an interstellar empire is even less likely to base its 
currency on a precious metal of any kind, when you consider there's a 
great chance that the system 2 parsecs over might have enough of your 
**precious** metal to the point where they use it in thin foil sheets 
to wrap candy bars...

Sorry to spout, but this is just not an economically sound 
argument...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 20:55:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The Iridium Standard

On Tue, 9 Jul 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> However, there are complications in relation to the Imperium scenario.
> 
> First, there's communication lag.  Transactions in one part of the
> Imperium are tied *very* loosely to the rest of the empire.  It would
> be impossible to float the credit across hundreds of parsecs and not
> have its value vary from place to place, and time to time.  The cargo
> of boojam you bought at Lois IV for 14cr/ton is worth 14cr/ton on Lois
> IV...on Johnson III it can be sold for 21cr/ton.  Is this a difference
> in the *worth* of boojam...or is it a localized and transient
> difference in the *worth* of the credit?  Are there too many credits
> piled up on Johnson chasing available goods?  

Maybe my mind has shut down for the night already, but: Why would this be 
a problem so significant as to require a currency that is not free 
floating? 


> Second, the Imperium is modeled (it seems to me) on mercantile empires
> rather than capitalism.  Similar empires in our past where strongly
> tied to a centralized authority working on a gold standard. Their goal
> was to exploit the periphery pulling wealth into the center from where
> the oligarchy ruled.

Hmmm...if I recall correctly, the Imperial ruling family has a bit of 
stock in a number of megacorps.  Then, there's taxation.  I don't see the 
Imperium laying waste to the frontiers in order to satisfy wants and 
needs at the core.  The stated goal has always been the facilitation of 
trade between member worlds.  If you want a monetary reason for that, I'd 
say the increased tax base that comes with increased trade would work.


> Thirdly, once firmly established the 3rd Imperium's trade was almost
> all internal.  Trade with various nations was never emphasized.  Sure
> there was some of it, but I don't think it was major.  Because of
> this, the Imperium might have thought it could afford to fix the value
> of the credit.

This is a good point.  But then, I never bought the idea of member worlds 
having their own currency anyway.  I figured, one Imperium, one currency. 


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:19:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs (urp)

On 10 Jul 1996, Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc wrote:

> All this talk about Corn Dogs made me go to Weinerschnitzel (a fast food chain 
> specializing in hot dogs) and buy myself a pile of Corn Dogs for dinner 
> yesterday.  I can still taste the things this morning, even after three doses 
> of Alka Seltzer.

No kidding!  I did the same thing (though, sadly, we don't have Der 
Weinerschnitzel's where I live now)! :)  All that talk of corn dogs made 
me hunt up a place that sells them and have a few for dinner. :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 96 02:07:00 UTC 0000
Subject: Assorted

Joe Walsh

On Wed, 10 Jul 1996 gdw.support@genie.com wrote:

< quoted Imperial credit remarks deleted >

> Neat!  Thanks for sharing that with us.  It's always nice to know the
> thinking behind the decisions (large, small, and in-between) that shaped
> our favorite RPG. :)

> If you can spend a few more moments with us, I've a couple of questions
> for you.  First, in reading JTAS I have noticed that a great deal of the
> material was produced by a small number of people (JTAS remains one of my
> favorite RPG items to re-read).  Did the articles produced by the main
> contributors (including yourself, of course) tend to reflect the nature
> of the campaigns they ran?  For instance, one article in particular that
> I enjoyed very much was "Speculation Without a Starship," which was
> written by you and appeared in issue 5.  Did your campaigns have an
> emphasis on trade?

Mine? Not especially, although since the PCs were the crew (and
hanger's-on) of a free trader, merchantile operations were always the
backdrop against which the adventures took place. My campaign did not
last long, but a lot of stuff from it ended up as part of the Imperium
in one form or another.

> My other question is one that I've wondered about for quite some time.
> Who wrote the Traveller News Service section?

Numerous people. Marc, Frank, myself, and other GDW staffers wrote the
lion's share of them. We got a lot of TNS stuff in the mail, and we
ran some of them (some intact, some edited). I can't say about the
rest of the staff, but in my case, ideas would occur at odd moments,
and I would jot them down. When it was time to put an issue to bed,
I'd take the "required news" from the pre-written FFS stuff, and fill
in with other stuff. I would ask for news items from the office in
general, and if there weren't enough to fill up a page, I'd write some
at the last minute.

>  How far in advance were TNS-announced events planned?

The FFW stuff was worked out a year or two in advance. Other itemslaid
around for a few weeks, months, or days. Some of them I wrote as the
issue was going to press.

>  And, did the folks at GDW play the events announced out before
> writing about them (for example, the events leading up to the Fifth
> Frontier War)?

Marc and Frank had a time-table for the FFW, but it wasn't the result
of any game-play.

- ------------------------------

Darryl Adams

> IMHO, the Imperium is based on three empires, two of which are fictional.
> 1) the Roman Empire


More than you know. Imperial Rome is a special interest of mine (some
would say a fixation), and both Marc and Frank were widely-read in
history. We looked at the Persian and Chinese empires also, but Rome
of the Caesars was a major inspiration for how the Imperium worked.
> 2) Asimov's Impirium.

Asimov admitted that the Foundation trilogy was partially inspired by
Gibbon's _Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire_. We had all read the
trilogy, of course, and it formed part of the SF literary background
we drew Traveller's Imperium from.

> 3) Niven & Pournelle First and Second Imperium.

We were all Niven fans, and Known Space was part of the same
background mentioned above. Frank likes Pournelle slightly less than
Marc and I do, but he was also part of the background.


< quote from "To Dream of Chaos." identifying "corn dogs" as larvae >

Hmm...Dave edited TDOC. Perhaps he changed his mind. Perhaps he missed
that passage.

Steve Charlton

> From Invasion Earth we get some overall details.

> In addition, there were some global changes.  The Mediterranen was larger, and
> the coasts of Northern Europe and the Americas were slightly changed; it looked
> as though the average sea level had increased.  This might imply some global
> warming and melting of icecaps, but I don't recall any specific statement.

Some of those changes were intentional, some of them were simply a
rush job tracing the map. : )

There were a couple of big inland seas that we added to reflect
climate control Terra-forming: I don't have the map handy, but there
was a large sea in Siberia added to provide a heat reservoir to warm
the place up. I can't remember anything else. People wrote us letters
asking if there had been global warming, or nuclear accidents, or
meteor strikes...

LKW


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 21:27:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Possible Traveller E-Mag

On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, JEFF ZEITLIN wrote:

[Stuff about a web-based Traveller magazine snipped]

Sounds like a good idea.

>   What I'd like to know:
> 
>   * Would people here be willing to write for it?

I would.  Like everyone else, I have other commitments, but you probably 
know by now that I like writing Traveller material. :)

>   * What would you like to see in it?

Rules variants.  Fiction.  Essays.  Equipment/vehicle/starship designs.  

>   * What should I do to avoid stepping on Imperial Games's toes?

Uh...IG could probably answer that better.  The best advice I can think 
of is to get permission from them first.

>   * What do you think of the idea in general?

I like it.

>   * What other comments do you have?

As far as I'm concerned, you shouldn't sweat it about being unable to 
pay.  Look at all the stuff that is presented here for free!  The sad 
thing is, although the digests are archived, the material is generally 
lost to the casual web denizen.  I'd like to see a central location where 
the best material produced by the Traveller mailing list participants 
would be available for all to see.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 1996 19:33:15 -0800
Subject: Re: Corn Dogs

On 10 Jul 96 at 10:00, Paul Walker spewed:

> Gee, once again Loren saves the day.  No, to answer Loren's question, Dave
> didn't change his mind.  The Hiver "corndog" is a sea cucumber used as food.

Nice clarification, Paul...

> This brings me to another point, though.  I've been reading a number of
> complaints about the "corndog" joke that ruined an already bad alien module,
> namely Hiver & Ithklur.  Then I read the few posts of the "experts"
> explaining the "corndog" issue to others.  I personally enjoyed Hiver &
> Ithklur very much.  I don't have any DGP material to compare it with, so I

Good for you.  I didn't like it, but you are entitled to voice your 
opinion...as I am entitled to disagree with it...

> can't comment on the comparison, but I can comment on H&I.  I get a little
> irritated at people who discount a plot device (Virus) or a book (H&I) or
> anything else without really understanding what they are talking about.  It
> amazed me how few people knew the subtleties of Virus as illuminated in SM,

Not really all that amazing.  A lot of people don't have Survival 
Margin...

I own it, as well as Hivers and Ithklur...and have read them, so I 
feel that I do know what I'm talking about.  

> and again I am amazed at how few people understand the "corndog" issue that
> they complain about.  H&I presented the life of both Hiver and Ithklur.
> "Corndogs" are a part of that life.  Life is funny if you know where to

OK, granted, the "Corndogs" idea is an interesting study in culture 
clash...not all that funny, but mildly interesting...

> look.  I think some people just take this game a bit too seriously.  If I
> took the game too seriously, I would see H&I as a slap in the face, but that

Some people do, but not because they take it seriously.  They bought 
H&I for the reasons I did.  To get a better development of the races 
to use in a future RPG session...not for humor, and certainly not to 
trash a great deal of what had been written before about the 
Hivers...

> is not at all how it is intended!  The hiver were designed to be mysterious
> and untrustworthy, and yet they are the very ones humanity must trust in to

This is generally not the point of ANY alien race in a WELL-DEVELOPED 
story or RPG session.  The Hivers should have very good motivations 
for why they do, what they do...it shouldn't be dark and mysterious 
to a referee.  It will often be different than what a human would do 
in the same circumstances, but if its a mystery to referee, its just 
plain not a well developed alien...its a cardboard cutout caricature 
of an alien...this is my biggest beef with H&I...it contradicted 
previous references, and it didn't really develop them all that well 
in the direction it took it (other than wrapping it in mystery)... 

Actually, looking back at this aspect of it, it gives me the feel of 
a lot of the old cold war propaganda films made in the US about the 
Communists.  Wrapping them in an aura of mysterious evil, that made 
them less than human, and therefore more acceptable as an enemy.  
There should be so much more than that to an alien, and in the older 
alien modules (including the original GDW ones) there was.  There 
wasn't much of that in H&I though.

> help it back to the stars.  I find this incredible, and very realistic.  I
> don't think the Hiver section is intended to be chocked full of jokes, but
> the distruse of the person writing the comments is humourous at times, but
> just think about the comments he makes.  They Make a lot of sense!!!  The

Great...but I can buy books of humor for a lot less than $14...
And dismissing somebody else's considered opinion of a book as 
childish, is in itself childish...

> Please don't misunderstand, I'm not intending to imply anything about the
> issue of cannon.  I just am referring to H&I as a part of the TNE library.
> I have very little MT material and even less CT material (not choice, just
> devine intervention) so I con't really comment on the "cannon" issue.

Great...then you have NO reason to bash those of us who were here 
before and do have a lot of old stuff, for disliking H&I...

There are a lot of things I like about TNE...H&I is NOT 1 of them...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #233
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