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TML Bundles come from the archives of the Traveller Mailing List,
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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun Aug  4 21:00:09 PDT 1991
From: traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com (TML Administrator)
Subject: TML Bundle #222: Table of Contents

-AMN- --Date--- --Sender--------- --Subject-----------------------------------
2697  31-Jul-91 John Lusk         Politics of foundations in 2300? << [Discussi
2698  31-Jul-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: High Speed Projectiles << > From: KELLOGG
2699  31-Jul-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: High Speed Projectiles << > From: Adrian 
2700  31-Jul-91 Adrian Hurt       Re: Very High Speed Projectiles << KELLOGG@du
2701  31-Jul-91 Adrian Hurt       Powered armour << I suggest those of you who 
2702  31-Jul-91 Leonard Erickson  High speed projectiles << In TML message (269
2703  31-Jul-91 Ryan Campbell     World Builder's Handbook Software Availible v
2704  31-Jul-91 James T Perkins   TML FTP POLICY STATEMENT - Please Read << I'd
2705  31-Jul-91 wew@naucse.cse.na Re: TML FTP POLICY STATEMENT - Please Read <<
2706  01-Aug-91 George William He Where did I see that quote??? << In one of th
2707  01-Aug-91 "ERIC H NEILSEN"  2300 AD foundations << In reply to the messag
2708  01-Aug-91 William Henry Tim Re: (2702) High speed projectiles << Some int
2709  01-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Yet more High Speed Projectiles << Houston, w
2710  02-Aug-91 Adrian Hurt       Re: High Speed Projectiles << KELLOGG@ducvax.
2711  02-Aug-91 Adrian Hurt       Re: Vulture type TugBots << KELLOGG@ducvax.au
2712  02-Aug-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Yet more High Speed Projectiles << > From
2713  02-Aug-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Re: Where did I see that quote??? << > From: 
2714  02-Aug-91 d9bertil@dtek.cha Arrghhh!!!! << That look on how many 3G accel
2715  02-Aug-91 Carl Fago         Re: (2709) Yet more High Speed Projectiles <<
2716  03-Aug-91 iczer-1!jedi@uune  << Hey, guys. It's nice to finally get back 
2717  03-Aug-91 Hans Visser       Mt Ranting << In (at least my version of the 
2718  04-Aug-91 KELLOGG@ducvax.au Re: Re: Vulture TugBots << Ok, So I didn't ha

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2697
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 05:19:15 -0400
From: John Lusk <lusk@cs.unc.edu>
Subject: Politics of foundations in 2300?

[Discussion regarding 2300 and other Traveller-related rulesets are
welcome on the TML -- James]

Greetings, Traveller mailing list!  I've been lurking here for quite a
while in anticipation of someday getting back into Traveller, and now
I am (as a ref, no less), and I have some questions to throw out for
discussion.

Foundations: just what are they?  The Adventurer's Guide states (or
implies) that nationalism declines significantly as a result of the
Twilight War and foundations arise as sources of group identity.  (For
the non-2300 people, a foundation, as far as I can tell, is a
semi-private organization, like a corporation or a union.)  That's
fine and dandy, but then, in the list of major wars fought over the
last 300 years, all belligerents are COUNTRIES, not a single
foundation.  So what gives?  If people come to think of themselves as
members of no one nation, they must be members of SOME group, namely,
foundations.

Agree so far?  To be pedantic, every individual must be a member of
some "tribe", for self-defense (or effective aggression, for that
matter) and for social care.  By "social care", I mean that
nonproductive members of society must still be taken care of, since a
certain fraction of any self-supporting society will be nonproductive.
Children, retirees, the ill, and the temporarily unemployed are
obvious examples.

So, to some extent, we've done away with the nation-state as the
provider of these services.  Meaning foundations must have the ability
to go head-to-head with national gov'ts in times of conflict, and must
have the economic resources to provide care for its nonproductive
members.  (Military ability can also be stated in terms of economics,
because weapons can almost always be bought SOMEWHERE.)  Where does
that economic ability come from?  Taxes.

So, what's necessary for a decent tax base?  Essentially, a GNP
(and/or citizens with a taxable income).  My economics is getting a
little shaky here.  So let's pick a foundation-like 20th-century
organization: IBM or Nippon Telephone & Telegraph.  These guys provide
day-care, pensions, education for employees.  In some cases, housing
(witness the "mill villages" of early 20th-century textile
corporations).  Health care.  Insurance (same thing).  Company stores.
All kinds of nifty things.  And what pays for all this is PROFITS.
(Or gross income.)  But the question in my mind is: can (semi-)private
organizations support the additional burden of a navy and troops?  The
chronically unemployed?  Drugs?  Permanently (semi-)disabled citizens
(mental retardation, cancer, what else)?  Any opinions on this?

Suppose the foundation is truly viable, providing some service to the
universe in general and using its income to care for its citizens.  Do
national governments still regard those people as citizens of that
government?  If so, they would still be subject to that gov't's taxes.
(No, I do NOT believe national governments will, out of the goodness
of their hearts, refrain from taxing those individuals who claim not
to be citizens.  The only reason national gov'ts today don't tax each
other's citizens is because everybody has got the military ability to
prevent that kind of behavior (or has the right allies).)

So, we have the slow growth of foundations as social/political bodies,
and the need for the foundations to tax their citizens (even
indirectly, as in profit-sharing (wherein costs of "government" are
deducted from profits BEFORE they are distributed to "employees"))
coming into conflict w/the national gov'ts taxing the same people.
(Go back over those parentheses; I know they're confusing.  :)  )

Agree so far?  If so, where are the dadgum
foundation-vs.-national-gov't wars?  Do I have to modify some of the
last 300 years' history?

John.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2698
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: High Speed Projectiles
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 14:38:18 MET DST

> From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
> Subject: (2694) High Speed Projectiles
> 
> Scout Ship has accel of 2 G's.  As such it will reach 1/10 speed of light
> in (oops don't have my calculator...)  approx 5 days (?)  at which point
> you toss your one cubic centimeter lead pellets out the airlock.
> 
> No big deal.

  The first question in this case is, when the map (MegaTraveller) and the 
terrain (physics) don't agree, do we follow the map or the terrain? Personally
I prefer the terrain.

  The trouble is that the scoutship is taking a shortcut through a big hole in
the rules, since the kinetic energy contained in the scoutship at 0.1c is about
1/14th of the *total* energy contained in the mass of the ship (!).
  To supply that amount of energy in five days the ships powerplant has to have
an effect of 2,812,500,000 MW which is a little large in a 1350m3 hull. With a
powerplant on 1000 MW it would take the ship 38,520 years to reach 0.1c and the
fuelvolume for that endurance is also a little large for a 1350m3 hull:)
  [I apologize to the physicists union for quacking on their turf:)]

- - -bertil-
- - -- 
"Med ett sjyst ja"rnro"r sla^r man va"rlden med ha"pnad!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2699
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: High Speed Projectiles
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 15:04:21 MET DST

> From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
> Subject: (2689) Re: High Speed Projectiles
 
> Just how much acceleration can a good mass-driver deliver?  If the ship is
> on the order of 100's of metres long and the mass-driver is spinally mounted
> (so it is as long as the ship), then the acceleration needed is on the order
> of 10**11 m/s**2.

  The maximum velocity of a projectile launched with a MD designed according to
the 3G system is about 129km/s, and the projectile in this case is a 2mm light-
weight sphere.
  The reason behind this that the mimimum diameter of the projectile increase
with increasing energy of the projectile, but the energy required for a certain
speed increase faster...

  I'll look at how speeds that can be reached if one stack several accelerators
after eachother and assume that the energy add is equal for each accelerator, 
but I'm lost without a spreadsheet right now:)

  As for what material to make the projectiles of, why not take some junk 
artifacts of monadium? If it is as indestructible as it is described to be, it
shouldn't suffer from ablation at high speeds.

- - -bertil-
- - --
"That's the best use of Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium that *I've* 
 ever seen!" - Me to a player who'd just used it to flatten a mosquito:)

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2700
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Very High Speed Projectiles
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 10:39:21 BST

KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
> Scout Ship has accel of 2 G's.  As such it will reach 1/10 speed of light
> in (oops don't have my calculator...)  approx 5 days (?)  at which point
> you toss your one cubic centimeter lead pellets out the airlock.

Speed of light = 3*10**8 m/s
2*G = 19.6 m/s**2 (near enough for this purpose, anyway)
Time to accelerate to 3*10**7 m/s = 18 days, neglecting the effects of
relativity.

> As far as I know, there is no navigational deflector (ala star trek) in
> Trav, and as I said before, it would have 16 seconds to pick up the target
> and act on it before the object streaked from Far Orbit range to impact.

In which case, what protects the ship, now travelling at 0.1c, from the first
dust particle it hits?

You're going to have to do all the accelerating blind, because you're out of
sensor range.  If you're in sensor range, someone on the planet has 18 days'
warning that you are accelerating yourself at him, and plenty of time to get
your ship with a meson gun or nuclear missile.  Or even a sandcaster, whose
particles you are going to collide with at something less than 0.1c, but still
fast enough to do interesting things to your ship.  So, you have to fire blind.
Your chances of hitting a ship this way are virtually nil; by the time you've
finished accelerating, the ship has probably done what it came to the planet
to do, and long since left.  Assuming you can find someone prepared to fly a
ship at 0.1c without navigational deflectors (hint - not any character I'm
running :-) you might be able to attack the planet, whose course is entirely
predictable.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2701
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Powered armour
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 14:00:58 BST

I suggest those of you who are interested in high TL military hardware
subscribe to the newsgroup sci.military, if you haven't done so already.
There's a discussion going on about powered armour - battledress to you.
Summary so far:

Pros:
	Gives protection against small-arms fire and shrapnel
	High-tech sensors make the soldier more aware of the surroundings
	Allows the soldier to carry heavier weapons

Cons:
	Very expensive to issue to general infantry
	Difficult to maintain
	Difficult to train the soldiers to use it properly, as well
	  as perform field-level maintenance on it
	New weapons will be developed to counter it
	May restrict the soldier's mobility

There are also various concepts of what powered armour would actually be,
varying from an armoured NBC suit with additional sensors (like MT Combat
Armour), to a one-man tank, to the huge monsters favoured by Japanese
cartoons.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2702
Date: 31 Jul 91 09:01:46 EDT
From: Leonard Erickson <70465.203@CompuServe.COM>
Subject: High speed projectiles

In TML message (2694) High Speed Projectiles, Scott Kellog writes:

>Time to go over the 1/10C projectile again...
>
>Scout Ship has accel of 2 G's.  As such it will reach 1/10 speed of
light
>in (oops don't have my calculator...)  approx 5 days (?)  at which
point
>you toss your one cubic centimeter lead pellets out the airlock.

...

>If you use a 1 G Free trader multiply the time reqired by 2.  A damn
cheap
>doomsday weapon if you ask me.

velocity = acceleration * time.

1 g = 9.8 m/s^2
c   = 3e8 m/s

thus at 1 g it takes a bit over 354 *days* to reach c (ignoring
relativistic effects). A good "rule of thumb" is that c is 1 g for 1
year. 

So 1/10th c takes 35 days at 1 g, 18 days at 2 g. This is noticeably
above the "one week at full thrust" "rule" I recall from original
Traveller. Also note that you will need *double* this, as you have to
slow down *sometime*! Doesn't MegaTrav have a "one month's fuel" figure
used in designs? Looks like you need *at least* a 3 g ship to do it.

Oh yes, at this speed your tau factor is .995 :-)

to reach 1/10th c
accel	time 		distance
1	35 days		4.6e10 km
2	18 days		2.3e10 km
3	12 days		1.5e10 km
4	 9 days		1.1e10 km
5	 7 days		9.2e09 km
6	 6 days 	7.7e09 km



------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2703
From: Ryan Campbell <viper@milton.u.washington.edu>
Subject: World Builder's Handbook Software Availible via FTP 
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 11:22:15 PDT



Version 1.1 of Jaymin's World Builder's Handbook Software is now available
through anonymous FTP at milton.u.washington.edu (128.95.136.1).  The file
is located in public/trav/libdist.zip.  It is a zip archive (not uuencoded,
not Z compressed) and you should use binary mode to transfer it.

Questions regarding retrieving this file can be directed to: 
viper@u.washington.edu .  Queries related to the program should go to 
jaymin@maths.tcd.ie .

If anyone has any other traveller related programs/data/character sheets/etc. 
that they would like to share with the anonymous FTP community, I would be
more than happy to put any reasonable amount on Milton.


                     -Ryan Campbell

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2704
Subject: TML FTP POLICY STATEMENT - Please Read
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 12:30:12 PDT
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@metolius.WR>


I'd like to thank people for all the sharing Traveller materials and
software via anonymous ftp.  I feel that sharing of this kind
contributes greatly to the value of the TML, and inspires interest and
comment from people who work with the materials.  However, a problem has
begun to develop.

My concern is that there are now over half a dozen ftp sites carrying
various and sundry items of interest to TMLers, three "official"
(documented) sites, and a few that have only been mentioned in TML
messages.  When a new TML member asks what materials are available and
how to get them, I email them a cross-reference document which I
maintain.  This document is getting larger and larger, with more and
more sites, and it is difficult to keep it always up-to-date.  As a
result, I'd like to suggest the following policy:

	Hereafter, sunbane.engrg.uwo.ca (129.100.100.12) should be
	considered the primary TML ftp site.  I'd like people who are
	post software, data, or other materials to share, to announce
	its availability on sunbane in preference to other sites, if at
	all possible.

The reason for this policy is because, while ftp is wonderful, it is
difficult for me and TML members to keep track of and remember (and
document) where all these valuable contributions are located.  If I can
keep them in as few places as possible, I can tell new TML members and
members asking questions, "Look on sunbane! Almost everything's there,
and here are the one or two exceptions." Keeping it in one archive site
also makes browsing easier.

I'd like to hear people's opinion on this policy, particularly those
known to be administering ftp sites for the TML: Dan Corrin, George
Herbert, Bill Wilson, and Ryan Cambell.

James
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Traveller Mailing List Administrator	     James T Perkins @ Tektronix, Inc
traveller-request@metolius.wr.tek.com	     Beaverton, Oregon, USA
uunet!metolius.wr.tek.com!traveller-request  "Load Auto/Evade, Beowulf!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2705
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 91 12:43:51 MST
From: wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu (Bill Wilson)
Subject: Re: TML FTP POLICY STATEMENT - Please Read

Wouldn't bother me, although for testing purposes I would like to only
maintain a copy of code on my machine until it is ready to go.  Instead 
of cross referencing where things are, you could have a list of general FTP
sites and just have people poke around.


- - -- 
Let sleeping dragons lie........                    | The RoleMancer 
- - --------------------------------------------------------------------
Bill Wilson (wew@naucse.cse.nau.edu | ucc2wew@nauvm | wilson@nauvax)
Northern AZ Univ  Flagstaff, AZ 86011

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2706
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 91 02:14:27 -0700
From: George William Herbert <gwh@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Where did I see that quote???


	In one of the published GDW MegaTraveller materials (I don't know 
which one), I remember seeing a comment about Lucan commending an admiral who
destroyed a High Pop world rather than surrender it to Dulinor's forces.
	Does anyone else remember this?  I've checked my nearly-complete set
of rulebooks and Challenge's, and didn't find it.  If it actually existed,
can someone tell me where?

	Aahrgh.  8-)

- - -george william herbert
gwh@ocf.berkeley.edu
"Death wins Indy 500: 'I didn't know I could run that fast' "


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2707
Date: 1 Aug 91 10:07:00 EDT
From: "ERIC H NEILSEN" <neilsen@vax001.kenyon.edu>
Subject: 2300 AD foundations

 In reply to the message about foundations as sources of loyalty, and the
decline of nationalism, there are several solutions to the problem. The first 
is that the governments continue to provide the services such as care for the
elderly, and maintenance of the military, but that the citizenship doesn't take 
it quite as religeously. Many people have health insurance, but few can be said
to be loyal to ones insurance company in the same way that they are to their
country. Possibly the existence of space travel and colony worlds makes gaining
more population a great adventage to the governments, who then compete for
people in a capitalist like environment, getting along by means of a very
complex set of treaties. An interesting adventure might involve a character
trying to change citizenship.
 Another possibility, more interesting but less main stream, is that the
governments really are no longer supplying these services, and that some sort
of religeous organization (probably humanist in nature, if one is not to
upset the social character to radically) might be supporting the handicaped,
etc., through donations. Possibly such an organization has some sort of 
military might as well. Such an organization could be a very interesting
one adventure wise. A religeous army would probably have some sort of code
of honor. It will probably not have legal juristiction anywhere, and so may
be underground, and not recognized by the religeon "officially". Its 
relations to other religeons would be interesting, possibly enev involving
holy wars, etc. Note that by religeon I don't necessarily mean that they 
worship something (Taoists don't seem to), or believe in extra-scientific
powers (and in a 2300 like setting, nobody could actually have such powers 
(though they could believe in them) without
drastically altering the character of the game.), but only they they have a
common moral code and a means of inspiring large numbers of people to follow
that code, usually through ritual. (Of course, bribary by powers or threat by 
"gods" are more common methods.)
 What sort of new religeon would develop in the next 300 years? Maybe something
based on the vary "new age" ideas of Geanism. Another possibility would be 
something which would claim to unify the different religeons. If one wanted
to have a "secret society" bent to their world, one could base an organization
off of the Free Masons (I don't know how factually accurate it is on "real"
free masons, but Robert A. Wilsons _Historical Illuminatus_ might be of use
here.), or a religeon along the lines of the "Speaker for the Dead"
group found in Orson Scott Cards  _Enders Game_ series. Possibly more than
one of these could come into existance, creating more interesting scenerios...


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2708
Date: Thu,  1 Aug 91 13:46:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: William Henry Timmins <wt0b+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: (2702) High speed projectiles

Some interesting, non-traveller foo-

If you have velocity dumpers or matter energy converters in your
(likely) nontraveller games, tau factor becomes VERY interesting...

In case you didn't know, tau is multiplied to time to get relativistic
time (though I seem to recall actual lags only occur during acceleration
or something... relativity is more complicated than it appears), mass
and length are multiplied by the inverse.

tau = sqrroot (1- velocity^2/c^2)

I find it very useful to use percent of light^2 instead of
velocity^2/c^2, since it's the same thing.

A fun little rule... tau factor of .5 (mass and length doubled, time
halved) corresponds to 86.6% light speed... so if you convert 1/2 of a
mass to energy and dump it in the other 1/2, that's it's speed.

(with energy equal to that 1/2 mass x c^2! Whee!)

- - -Me
[Pooh Bear incarnate.]

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2709
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1991 18:48 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Yet more High Speed Projectiles

Houston, we have a problem...

If 
Bertil is correct in his calculations (No I'm not going to double check)
It is impossible for the scout to reach .1c.  Insufficient total energy.

But, I might point out that in order for traveller engines to work, we must
accept the fact that
1	The scout ship has 2G capable engines.
2	The fuel volume is capable of lasting 30 days.

These are the underlying assumptions of all traveler designs.  The number of
Megawatts of power input is a guesswork based on metaphysics.  If your
argument is based on that fact then we are arguing about metaphysics.

My point is that starship engines are based upon the fact that they are
supposed to be capable of boosting a ship at accelerations from 1G to 6G
10 to 60 meters per second for a period of thirty days.

If you accept that fact, then .1c is in.

If you look at it from a total energy avaliable perspective, I would question
the basis of the equations you use for available energy.  If you base it upon
the megatraveller power plant output, then you are questioning the very basis
of the power plants.  But remember, the power plants were designed (by GDW)
to account for the performance of non existant forms of locomotion.

If as you suggest a ship has only 1/14th the required energy to reach .1c
then the ship should only be able to accelerate at 2/14 G's (1/7 G) and
so the scout chip can not perform as it is required to perform.

Some people say they miss High Guard.  I miss Book 2.  they didn't even try
to guess what a power plant could put out so conservation of energy wasn't
a factor.  (sigh)

Ah well, It seems to me it just comes down to what brand of metaphysics
you prefer.  How many ancients can dance on the head of a pin?

As to the point that the free traders and scouts are shy a few days of fuel:
Well, use your cargo bay to hold more.

As to the point of flying blind.  Of course you are!  But out of the eccliptic
you mightn't have too much trouble.  (Fred, you knew the job was dangerous
when you took it!)   You don't need to be in sensor range if your target is
in a fixed orbit or on the ground.  Just plug in that intercept course and
let her rip.

As to finding crews to do it...  Well, you might'nt volunteer, but I'll bet
anyone desparate enough to try this little trick could find some poor shmuck
desparate enough to try it.  Or, just put it on auto-pilot.  And if on
auto-pilot, and you got scout ships to spare, just send it in as the projectile.
The Japanese had quite a few people get in the cockpit of a Kamikazie (sp?)
That's just a recruiting problem anyway.

(I bet you could find some Vargr who'd do it...)
Fastest sentient alive... what a title...

So, whaddya say guys?

Mr. Scott
Silly physicist extraordinaire.

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2710
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: High Speed Projectiles
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 91 10:02:55 BST

KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
> Some people say they miss High Guard.  I miss Book 2.  they didn't even try
> to guess what a power plant could put out so conservation of energy wasn't
> a factor.  (sigh)

Nor did High Guard, as far as I remember.  It gave the output of a power plant,
and the requiremts of various power-consuming systems, in terms of Energy
Points (which should tell you something about the physics knowledge of the
authors :-) .  It was Striker which dealt with MW, and as it gave MW-rated
equivalents of ship-borne weapons, one could convert Energy Points into MW.

> As to the point of flying blind.

Blind, as in you can't see the target.  Not blind, as in you can't see what's
in front of you.  (Avoiding what's in front of you when your speed is about
3*10**7 m/s and your acceleration is about 20 m/s**2 is a problem, though.)

>		      You don't need to be in sensor range if your target is
> in a fixed orbit or on the ground.  Just plug in that intercept course and
> let her rip.

Which was what I said.  If the target is something fixed, e.g. a planet, then
you might hit it.  If the target is capable of acceleration (e.g. a ship) then
it probably won't be there when you arrive, because it will have its own
reasons for leaving.  (_When_ you arrive?  More like _if_ you arrive!)

> The Japanese had quite a few people get in the cockpit of a Kamikazie (sp?)

But a Kamikaze had a chance of getting to the target, and it was there that
he intended to die.  Flying a spaceship at 0.1c, you won't hit the target.
You won't be hit by the target's defences.  You'll hit a few particles of dust
on the way, and turn into a few particles of dust yourself.

- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2711
From: Adrian Hurt <adrian@cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Vulture type TugBots
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 91 10:42:00 BST

KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu writes:
> Clearing up the debris of the Battle of Two Suns, a Vulture unit came across
> the main computer of the Allamu, a Kinunir class frontier cruiser.
> ...
> 	The Allamu then began taking control of the Vultures that were working
> the old battleground.  Using their Naval Architecture programming, it began
> rebuilding the cruiser from salvage in the battlefield including parts from
> the Ninkur Sagga, another Kinunir  class cruiser.  But the robots had a
> problem:

There wasn't much left of either ship.  From "Adventure 1: The Kinunir":

Allamu (BC-9516) was caught in the van at the Battle of Two Suns, 1084, and
withstood over four hours of steady attack before suffering screen failure.
Lost with all hands.

Ninkur Sagga (BC-9521) suffered either a spontaneous missile detonation or a
freak globe screen failure (accounts differ) while engaged on the port dorsal
flank at the Battle of Two Suns, 1084.  Lost with all hands.


It's worth noting that General Products, the producers of the Vulture, got the
contract for four Kinunir class cruisers.  One (Kinunir) disappeared without
trace in 1088, and hasn't been found since unless you've played Adventure 1 or
made up your own scenario.  One (Ninkur Sagga) was destroyed by malfunction,
as described above.  One (Gaesh) barely passed trials, and was gutted and
converted to a prison ship without drives or weapons.  One (Adda Dubsar) was
scrapped before it was even completed.  GP does not have a good record with the
Kinunir class!

Incidentally, can someone explain how two battle fleets came to meet midway
between two separate star systems (Yres and Menorb)?

>	Recently, the Allamu has been searching for the wreck of the Bard
> Enterprise an Azhanti High Lightning class cruiser lost during the Fourth
> Frontier War.

This must have come as a surprise to the Imperial Navy, who converted it to
a Frontier Cruiser by rearming it with a meson gun and altering some of the
secondary weaponry.  This conversion commenced in 1083, and was completed in
1085.  The conversion was delayed by the Fourth Frontier War, during which
conversion was suspended while the ship stood guard over the shipyard.  Bard
Enterprise was in service, in the Solomani Sphere, up to at least 1107 (the
date of the source of the above information, "Supplement 5 - Lightning Class
Cruisers", which came free with the board game "Azhanti High Lightning").
>From the same source, the following ships were lost during the Fourth Frontier
War:
Haunting Thunder
Threatening Vengeance
Bard Warlord

And the following were lost in operations postwar (1085-1105):
Loathesome Reverie
Luriani High Lightning
Echo Intruder
Guardian Rainbow
Infrequent Hazard
Arrival Scourge
Exhausted Venture
Cause Rampant

I couldn't find any information on the exact fates of any of the above ships,
with the exception of the Haunting Thunder.  That ship was engaged in commerce
raiding during the beginning of the Fourth Frontier War, and was caught at
Querion.  It was jumped by SDB's as it attempted to refuel at the secondary
gas giant, and just kept going into the gas giant.  One of the scenarios in
"Azhanti High Lightning" is based on this ship.  The other names are open for
speculation.

> 
> Scott Kellogg
> 
> 


- - -- 
 "Keyboard?  How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2712
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Yet more High Speed Projectiles
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 91 16:57:29 MET DST

> From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
> Subject: (2709) Yet more High Speed Projectiles
> 
> Houston, we have a problem...

  Ok, I admit that using real physics on an SF RPG is a rather dirty trick:)

> If Bertil is correct in his calculations (No I'm not going to double check)

  I did one error, but it has only minor effect on the results.
 
> If you look at it from a total energy avaliable perspective, I would question
> the basis of the equations you use for available energy.  If you base it upon
> the megatraveller power plant output, then you are questioning the very basis
> of the power plants.  But remember, the power plants were designed (by GDW)
> to account for the performance of non existant forms of locomotion.

  A scoutship weighs about 1350 tons, Ignoring relativistic effects (which I
suspect are of marginal effect at 0.1c, and in any case they will just make it
*harder* to reach 0.1c), it's kinetic energy at 0.1c is mv^2/2:

  1.35e6 * 3e7^2 / 2 = 6.075e20 Joules.

  The total energy contained in the mass of the ship is mc^2:

  1.35e6 * 3e8^2 = 1.215e23 Joules.

  So the energy equals 1/200th of the ships total mass. (Not 1/14th as I said,
but that's what happens when I play physicist, stupid me <kick!> <ouch!> :)

  1/200th of the ships mass is 6.75 tons, ie about 100kl of hydrogen, but 
fusion gives far less energy than total mass->energy conversion so it is still
unlikely that the fuel will contain enough energy.

  (Yes, ok, the calculations contain errors, the relativistic effects for one
thing, and the ship will become lighter as it uses fuel, thereby requiring less
energy, but I think these effects are minor.)

> But, I might point out that in order for traveller engines to work, we must
> accept the fact that
> 1	The scout ship has 2G capable engines.
> 2	The fuel volume is capable of lasting 30 days.

  There is one way out of this dilemma, and that is to assume that the engines
are *not* reactionless but that they have exhaust and that exhaust has a certain
speed. Their acceleration will (If I understand it correctly) decrease as the
ship comes closer to that speed. 
  That way the ship will still mostly have a 2G acceleration in it's typical
envelope (planet to 100diameters, in-system transfers etc) but if someone 
tries to take it outside that envelope by for example going full tilt for 
more than a week, the acceleration will decrease.

  This will unfortunately mean that all calculations of acceleration, range and
time will become very complex....
 
> If as you suggest a ship has only 1/14th the required energy to reach .1c
> then the ship should only be able to accelerate at 2/14 G's (1/7 G) and
> so the scout chip can not perform as it is required to perform.

  Every time you double the speed, the energy required quadruples. So it is
quite possible to have a ship that can do 2G in a low speed interval but can't 
do more than 1/200th G in a higher speed interval.

> Ah well, It seems to me it just comes down to what brand of metaphysics
> you prefer.  How many ancients can dance on the head of a pin?

  That depends on if the pin is made of monadium, and on how many ancients
there are left that are able to dance, and on if the coyns say that dancing is
a good idea:)
 
> Mr. Scott
 
- - -bertil-
- - -- 
"Med ett sjyst ja"rnro"r sla^r man va"rlden med ha"pnad!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2713
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Re: Where did I see that quote???
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 91 17:06:57 MET DST

> From: George William Herbert <gwh@ocf.Berkeley.EDU>
> Subject: (2706) Where did I see that quote???
> 
> 	In one of the published GDW MegaTraveller materials (I don't know 
> which one), I remember seeing a comment about Lucan commending an admiral who
> destroyed a High Pop world rather than surrender it to Dulinor's forces.
> 	Does anyone else remember this?
  
  Yes, I remember reading or hearing (TML perhaps) about that incident. I think
it was someone that described Lucans intolerance to failures. An admiral had 
gotten the order not to retreat from any hi-pop worlds under any circumstances,
so when he(?) was forced to do that anyway he(?) made sure that it wasn't a 
hi-pop world any longer...

  I think that a big part of the impact of this story is that doing this to a
world is totally unthinkable, so the message Lucan sent was "I'd rather that 
you do the unthinkable than fail to obey my orders."

> - -george william herbert

- - -bertil-
- - -- 
"Med ett sjyst ja"rnro"r sla^r man va"rlden med ha"pnad!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2714
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Arrghhh!!!!
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 91 21:13:55 MET DST

  That look on how many 3G accelerators that can be stacked after each other
will have to wait. My mac just crapped up royally and refuse to awaken again:(

  I'm just glad that all my traveller stuff is on a stand-alone hard drive.

- - -bertil-
- - -- 
"Med ett sjyst ja"rnro"r sla^r man va"rlden med ha"pnad!"

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2715
Subject: Re: (2709) Yet more High Speed Projectiles
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 91 7:59:31 PDT
From: Carl Fago <carlf@agora.rain.COM>

> Date: Thu, 1 Aug 1991 18:48 CDT
> From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
> Subject: (2709) Yet more High Speed Projectiles
> 
> If 
> Bertil is correct in his calculations (No I'm not going to double check)
> It is impossible for the scout to reach .1c.  Insufficient total energy.
> 
> But, I might point out that in order for traveller engines to work, we must
> accept the fact that
> 1	The scout ship has 2G capable engines.
> 2	The fuel volume is capable of lasting 30 days.
> 
> These are the underlying assumptions of all traveler designs.  The number of
> Megawatts of power input is a guesswork based on metaphysics.  If your
> argument is based on that fact then we are arguing about metaphysics.

Just for the record, the argument is between classical physics and the
modifications of relativity as identified by Einstein and Lorenz.  This is
not metaphysics (which deals with philosophy.)

> My point is that starship engines are based upon the fact that they are
> supposed to be capable of boosting a ship at accelerations from 1G to 6G
> 10 to 60 meters per second for a period of thirty days.
> 
> If you accept that fact, then .1c is in.
> 
> If you look at it from a total energy avaliable perspective, I would question
> the basis of the equations you use for available energy.  If you base it upon
> the megatraveller power plant output, then you are questioning the very basis
> of the power plants.  But remember, the power plants were designed (by GDW)
> to account for the performance of non existant forms of locomotion.
> 
> If as you suggest a ship has only 1/14th the required energy to reach .1c
> then the ship should only be able to accelerate at 2/14 G's (1/7 G) and
> so the scout chip can not perform as it is required to perform.

The real issue is one of game balance.  The game was designed to be able to
role play in the future.  The game was not intended to require the players
and referee to calculate the intricacies of relativistic flight.

The purpose behind the drives was not necessarily to develop large mass
driver weapons and planetary destruction.  They were made to move a
ship from point "A" to point "B" and have the crew do something interesting
at point "B" (other than die in a large ball of fire.)

If a player wanted to play with these types of speeds, I would make him do the
calcs and figure out the fuel requirements and drive requirements.  This type
of play being outside the bounds of the game design to begin with.

Also, just for the record, if the speeds are less than about .1c, the effects
of relativity can be neglected in general.  Mass increase is about half a
percent at this speed.

- - -- 
+---------------------------------------------+------------------------------+
| *-=Carl=-*  INTERNET - carlf@agora.rain.com | Time is nature's way to keep |
|             DELPHI - WULFGAR                | everything from happening    |
| Carl Fago   Portland, OR                    | all at once.    -anon.       |
+---------------------------------------------+------------------------------+


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2716
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 91 03:02:09 -0400
From: iczer-1!jedi@uunet.uu.net

Hey, guys.  It's nice to finally get back on the list.  You all probably
knew me as one of the following usernames:

	gds3939@ritvax.BITNET
	gds3939@ritvax.isc.rit.EDU
	gds3939@ultb.isc.rit.EDU

I was also known under the handle "Jedi Master".  Well, I'm still going
by that handle, but I have a new address.  It is:

	uunet!iczer-1!jedi

Hope everything has been going OK with everyone, and I'll see you around.
LaTeR.

Jedi Master

- - --
Mundane -                                    |   SCA -
Gary Schreiber      Handle: Jedi Master      |   Kelson Alaric
241 Oakdale Dr                               |   Barrony of Thescorre
Rochester, NY  14618                         |   Principality of Aethelmearc
EMAIL : uunet!iczer-1!jedi                   |   East Kingdom


------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2717
Date: Sat, 3 Aug 91 21:40:44 -0700
From: Hans Visser <fusil@ms.washington.edu>
Subject: Mt Ranting

In (at least my version of the MT players's book) the cascade skill list,
rifleman includes auto rifle, but Combat Rifleman doesn't. It is in fact
very difficult to ever get Combat Rifleman, mysteriously mirroring the 
situation in the original rules (where PCs didn't get assault rifle, guass
rifle, or ACR -- even in the Army/Marines). This is, in my opinion, asinine.
Looking through the various books, I find all kinds of things that were
in the original rules, don't make sense anymore, but are still there. The
armor rules for animals (what?), mass-independent drives (okay, so I'll 
suffer), and my favorite, ship combat. Why couldn't ship combat be simply
an extension of basic combat? Why is that so horrible? The ship combat is
still an extension of the basic rules where bigger weapons increase to-hit
chance, but 10 lasers in a battery do the same damage as 1. When I got the
PHB (when it first came out), I thought `Thank God -- Real ship combat rules!'
when I read the PHB, but noooooo! On a poor, industrial world, on a good
task roll (Man, do I hate the `strangely named four-point modifier' system),
you can get cargo for free if TL is 10- and the starport is 8. Why get a 
disintegrator? Combat ranges! Ack!

OK, OK, sorry if I offended, but I always liked Traveller (2-D Universe and
all), and I was enthusiastic when MT was being first advertised, but I think
when I really get down to it, my opinion of it is roughly that of most people's
opinion of Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium. I have always considered
writing my own Traveller rules (with varying levels of success), but I think
that if I was going to play, I'd rather use the Basic/Striker rules. If only
someone would simply extrapolate those for starships, I think it'd be a far
superior system. Even Twilight2000-II is better (though the initiative rules
sucked big time). I guess I just wanted to vent my frustration somewhere.
Or more importantly, an I alone in this? I doubt I am, but I dunno...

	-H

------------------------------

Archive-Message-Number: 2718
Date: Sun, 4 Aug 1991 15:24 CDT
From: KELLOGG@ducvax.auburn.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Vulture TugBots

Ok,

So I didn't have my copy of Supplement 5 with me.  Currently it is
exactly 1014 miles from where I am sitting.  I think the fact that I was
able to remember the name of a Lightning Class Cruiser is still pretty good...

On the other hand, I said that the Allamu was reconstructed from salvage...
I didn't say how big the pieces were now did I?  Besides, all you'd need is
a few intact chips from either ship for the TugBot to get infected with
the AI programming of the cruiser.  Bubble memory...  I seem to remember
a similar scenereo in Adventure 13:  Signal GK...

Now why is it I can remember junk like this and not important stuff!!

Scott

"The oddest role playing I ever did?  Well, that would have to be the time
a human player character wanted to buy lingire (sp?) for his Vargr girlfriend.
He wandered into Fredricks of Regina...  The salesgirls didn't understand
why he wanted to get to the Vargr section."
	"Not to mention the salesvargr modelling the stuff..."

------------------------------

End of TML Bundle
*****************

