TRAVELLER Digest 560

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Computers and RPGs by "Greg O'Sullivan, Deakin University ITS" <gjo@brt.deakin.edu.au>
  2) by traveller@MPGN.COM
  3) GDW On-Line by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
  4) by traveller@MPGN.COM
  5) Milspec and FF&S by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
  6) by traveller@MPGN.COM
  7) The K'Kree Alien Module by igor@netins.net (Andrew Akins)
  8) by traveller@MPGN.COM
  9) Re: TRAVELLER digest 559 by 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
 10) by traveller@MPGN.COM
 11) Re: Pieces & Parts for FFS by jamesd@loki.spirit.net.au (James Dempsey)
 12) Re: Modular FFS by "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
 13) Plague of ???? and Nth Interstellar War by Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
 14) technology and war by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 11:34:39 +1000
From: "Greg O'Sullivan, Deakin University ITS" <gjo@brt.deakin.edu.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Computers and RPGs
Message-ID: <0099CB7C.E9CDEB20.4120@vax1.ccs.deakin.edu.au>


Hmm post something to a mailing list? What a radical idea!
I subscribed to this list just before the GDW annoucement, what timing!
I don't really have much background playing traveller, just one
short adventure GM'ed by my brother-in-law many years ago.
I did play GDW board games quite a bit, Dark Nebula, Imperium, Invasion Earth,
The Blood Tree Rebelion and what was that other space game about warfare
between planets in the same solar system, might have been in a binary star
system or something? (Tri-planetary?)

I recently borrowed all my brother-in-laws CT stuff, because I wanted to
borrow some ideas for a Computer SciFi RPG I've been writing.
Reading through all this material got me interested in playing Traveller again.

I though I might ask the list what peoples opinions are on use of computers as
RPG aids and computer RPGs in general.

I do own a copy of MegaTraveller 1 "The Zhodani Conspiracy" computer game
which I never played much because floppy disk access was so slow on my Atari ST
computer and it was going to take forever to get the 2,000,000 cr for that
jump-2 drive you needed so you could get on with following the plot line.

It seems to me that rolling lots of dice and looking up dozens of tables
is not what RPGs are all about, they should be about interactions between
characters and the adventure.
Any automation of the game mechanics should be welcome.

Where do computer RPGs fall down?
They are a solitary game with no interaction with real people.
They often force you to follow a tightly scripted plotline.
Also you might like to have more a view about what is going on inside the
game engine

e.g. "Ace" fires his PGMP wildly and misses with plasma bolts zipping madly
      about the room because he has no energy weapons skill.


  "Venor" successfully makes use of his demolition-1 skill and blows the door.

To keep the traditional RPG flavour you might want to know how the computer
determined the result.

A lot of computer RPGs have real time combat, which turns the adventure into
an arcade-like mouse click fest.


I don't know if this has been raised on the list before but what about an
online traveller game played over the Internet with some suitable PC frontend
software that could resolve space and land combat, built in chat software
and a server machine with a GM pulling the strings of NPCs.

I guess this is already sort of happening with people playing on IRC and
play by e-mail but just think how much better it could be with purpose designed
software. I think this is where Marc Miller should concentrate is efforts.
I think this could be big. (I believe Origin are doing an Ultima online game.)
The front end doesn't have to be amazing graphically, 2D overhead view?
(Although I rather like the 3D view in the 3DO game console version of
Space Hulk, gives you some idea of what combat in Battle Dress would be like
:) )

Some more crazy computer ideas, develop some Traveller software for the Apple
Newton Message Pad PDA thingy, it's very portable and easy to take to
gaming group meetings. The Newton has builtin infra red comms and a Local Talk
network port. You could run a networked game of "Computer Traveller"
face to face if your players have Newtons and a bit of Local Talk cabling :)
More fun than all "3-10 players" crowding around the one PC if you are using
combat resolving software.


I've ordered myself copies of TNE, BL, BR and Striker II out of curiosity
(coming surface mail so I won't have them for months),
also a second hand copy of MegaTraveller.

I would like some input on what other CT MT TNE materials are most useful to
have.
I haven't seen the MT or TNE rules yet but I think the combat damage system
in MT sounds more sensible than CT (from MT computer game) with armour reducing
damage rather than chance to hit.

I have access to: (care of brother-in-law)

       CT books 1-5
       CT supplements 2,3,4,7,9,10
       Best of JTAS 1,2
       JTAS 6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,16,18,20,21,24

I hope people haven't found this post too annoying.
Be kind to potential new travellers :)

Greg O'Sullivan
(gjo@brt.deakin.edu.au)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 19:58:22 -0500
From: traveller@MPGN.COM
Message-ID: <199601210058.TAA28883@mail.intercon.com>

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From: "Greg O'Sullivan, Deakin University ITS" <gjo@brt.deakin.edu.au>
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@mpgn.com>
Subject: Computers and RPGs
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List


Hmm post something to a mailing list? What a radical idea!
I subscribed to this list just before the GDW annoucement, what timing!
I don't really have much background playing traveller, just one
short adventure GM'ed by my brother-in-law many years ago.
I did play GDW board games quite a bit, Dark Nebula, Imperium, Invasion Earth,
The Blood Tree Rebelion and what was that other space game about warfare
between planets in the same solar system, might have been in a binary star
system or something? (Tri-planetary?)

I recently borrowed all my brother-in-laws CT stuff, because I wanted to
borrow some ideas for a Computer SciFi RPG I've been writing.
Reading through all this material got me interested in playing Traveller again.

I though I might ask the list what peoples opinions are on use of computers as
RPG aids and computer RPGs in general.

I do own a copy of MegaTraveller 1 "The Zhodani Conspiracy" computer game
which I never played much because floppy disk access was so slow on my Atari ST
computer and it was going to take forever to get the 2,000,000 cr for that
jump-2 drive you needed so you could get on with following the plot line.

It seems to me that rolling lots of dice and looking up dozens of tables
is not what RPGs are all about, they should be about interactions between
characters and the adventure.
Any automation of the game mechanics should be welcome.

Where do computer RPGs fall down?
They are a solitary game with no interaction with real people.
They often force you to follow a tightly scripted plotline.
Also you might like to have more a view about what is going on inside the
game engine

e.g. "Ace" fires his PGMP wildly and misses with plasma bolts zipping madly
      about the room because he has no energy weapons skill.


  "Venor" successfully makes use of his demolition-1 skill and blows the door.

To keep the traditional RPG flavour you might want to know how the computer
determined the result.

A lot of computer RPGs have real time combat, which turns the adventure into
an arcade-like mouse click fest.


I don't know if this has been raised on the list before but what about an
online traveller game played over the Internet with some suitable PC frontend
software that could resolve space and land combat, built in chat software
and a server machine with a GM pulling the strings of NPCs.

I guess this is already sort of happening with people playing on IRC and
play by e-mail but just think how much better it could be with purpose designed
software. I think this is where Marc Miller should concentrate is efforts.
I think this could be big. (I believe Origin are doing an Ultima online game.)
The front end doesn't have to be amazing graphically, 2D overhead view?
(Although I rather like the 3D view in the 3DO game console version of
Space Hulk, gives you some idea of what combat in Battle Dress would be like
:) )

Some more crazy computer ideas, develop some Traveller software for the Apple
Newton Message Pad PDA thingy, it's very portable and easy to take to
gaming group meetings. The Newton has builtin infra red comms and a Local Talk
network port. You could run a networked game of "Computer Traveller"
face to face if your players have Newtons and a bit of Local Talk cabling :)
More fun than all "3-10 players" crowding around the one PC if you are using
combat resolving software.


I've ordered myself copies of TNE, BL, BR and Striker II out of curiosity
(coming surface mail so I won't have them for months),
also a second hand copy of MegaTraveller.

I would like some input on what other CT MT TNE materials are most useful to
have.
I haven't seen the MT or TNE rules yet but I think the combat damage system
in MT sounds more sensible than CT (from MT computer game) with armour reducing
damage rather than chance to hit.

I have access to: (care of brother-in-law)

       CT books 1-5
       CT supplements 2,3,4,7,9,10
       Best of JTAS 1,2
       JTAS 6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,16,18,20,21,24

I hope people haven't found this post too annoying.
Be kind to potential new travellers :)

Greg O'Sullivan
(gjo@brt.deakin.edu.au)


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 19:22:55 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: GDW On-Line
Message-ID: <199601210222.AA16270@ns-1.csn.net>

I just got around to checking GEnie for the first time this year, and found
something that might interest a few people:

>                                                              (message 23 of
>Category 11,  Topic 1
>Message 329       Sun Jan 07, 1996
>GDW.SUPPORT [Loren W]        at 22:04 EST
>
>Just got a note from Scorpia, to the effect that the GDW.SUPPORT account will
>continue to exist for the forseeable future. I would appreciate it if you
>folks would spread that news around witht he same facility that others spread
>the continuing rumors of our demise : )
>

        To send e-mail to a GEnie address, just add @GENIE.GEIS.COM (so that
would be GDW.SUPPORT@GENIE.GEIS.COM).

PS: No, when he refers to "continuing rumors" he's unfortunately not saying
this has all been a mistake. He's probably referring to past, untrue, rumors ...
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@whip.com
  http://www2.csn.net/~goldendj/index.html -- Last updated 20 Jan 96

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 21:25:58 -0500
From: traveller@MPGN.COM
Message-ID: <199601210225.VAA00353@mail.intercon.com>

***** UNDELIVERABLE MAIL sent to caw, being returned by mail!caw *****
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From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@mpgn.com>
Subject: GDW On-Line
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

I just got around to checking GEnie for the first time this year, and found
something that might interest a few people:

>                                                              (message 23 of
>Category 11,  Topic 1
>Message 329       Sun Jan 07, 1996
>GDW.SUPPORT [Loren W]        at 22:04 EST
>
>Just got a note from Scorpia, to the effect that the GDW.SUPPORT account will
>continue to exist for the forseeable future. I would appreciate it if you
>folks would spread that news around witht he same facility that others spread
>the continuing rumors of our demise : )
>

        To send e-mail to a GEnie address, just add @GENIE.GEIS.COM (so that
would be GDW.SUPPORT@GENIE.GEIS.COM).

PS: No, when he refers to "continuing rumors" he's unfortunately not saying
this has all been a mistake. He's probably referring to past, untrue, rumors ...
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@whip.com
  http://www2.csn.net/~goldendj/index.html -- Last updated 20 Jan 96

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 21:08:02 -0600 (CST)
From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Milspec and FF&S
Message-ID: <199601210308.VAA27777@ConnectI.com>

Milspec is on the way out for normal use items, however, for field use
items, MIlspec is still alive and well.  The day we can purchase a cell
phone that has the reqs. of MilSpec is nt quite at hand yet.  Most of the
MilSpec items out there today are bigger etc due to shock absorbtion,
climate protection etc.

Now as for FF&S I would also like to see two powerplants of the same size
produre varrying amounts of power.  This could be accomplished by a simple
varriance table that will produce output varriations of + or - 5-10%.  Why
is this important.  How many 9mm Parabellums are out on the market today?
Yet almost every one has slight variances in performance.  Not necessarily
huge, but enought that people pick thier faves and stick with them.  You
could implement this into the game by allowing Engineers et al to raise
performance by extra maint.  The Cheif Eng could heighten G-rating for a
short period (or even longer) by making the roll.  Of course this could also
lead to disaster etc.  "My poor we Bairns they cannae take no more Captain!"
Not just that, but how about hot rodded M-Drives putting out 105-120% of
cappacity.  M-Drive afterburners, superchargers, etc.  These give the Eng.
more to do, and can turn the tide in an encounter.  It also gives the ref
something to do with the extra tonnage in a plug and play M-Drive.

David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
-----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 22:07:05 -0500
From: traveller@MPGN.COM
Message-ID: <199601210307.WAA01016@mail.intercon.com>

***** UNDELIVERABLE MAIL sent to caw, being returned by mail!caw *****
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From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@mpgn.com>
Subject: Milspec and FF&S
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
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Milspec is on the way out for normal use items, however, for field use
items, MIlspec is still alive and well.  The day we can purchase a cell
phone that has the reqs. of MilSpec is nt quite at hand yet.  Most of the
MilSpec items out there today are bigger etc due to shock absorbtion,
climate protection etc.

Now as for FF&S I would also like to see two powerplants of the same size
produre varrying amounts of power.  This could be accomplished by a simple
varriance table that will produce output varriations of + or - 5-10%.  Why
is this important.  How many 9mm Parabellums are out on the market today?
Yet almost every one has slight variances in performance.  Not necessarily
huge, but enought that people pick thier faves and stick with them.  You
could implement this into the game by allowing Engineers et al to raise
performance by extra maint.  The Cheif Eng could heighten G-rating for a
short period (or even longer) by making the roll.  Of course this could also
lead to disaster etc.  "My poor we Bairns they cannae take no more Captain!"
Not just that, but how about hot rodded M-Drives putting out 105-120% of
cappacity.  M-Drive afterburners, superchargers, etc.  These give the Eng.
more to do, and can turn the tide in an encounter.  It also gives the ref
something to do with the extra tonnage in a plug and play M-Drive.

David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
-----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 96 22:26:14 EST
From: igor@netins.net (Andrew Akins)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: The K'Kree Alien Module
Message-ID: <199601210423.WAA12642@ins2.netins.net>

Since it's been mentioned several times...

Does anyone out there have (or know where I can find )
a copy of Alien Module 2: K'Kree?

It's the only one of the Alien modules that I haven't
replaced ( I lost all of my original Traveller stuff in
a flood - I've been slowly rebuilding ).

I would appreciate it...and I agree, in many ways, the
K'Kree (as a race) are the ones to fear...
+-----------------+--------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins    | email: igor@netins.net                           |
| Igor Software   | www:                                             |
+-----------------+--------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed with the beauty that has touched mine.            |
|             -- Number Ten Ox, Bridge of Birds                      |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 23:27:51 -0500
From: traveller@MPGN.COM
Message-ID: <199601210427.XAA02293@mail.intercon.com>

***** UNDELIVERABLE MAIL sent to caw, being returned by mail!caw *****
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From: igor@netins.net (Andrew Akins)
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@mpgn.com>
Subject: The K'Kree Alien Module
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

Since it's been mentioned several times...

Does anyone out there have (or know where I can find )
a copy of Alien Module 2: K'Kree?

It's the only one of the Alien modules that I haven't
replaced ( I lost all of my original Traveller stuff in
a flood - I've been slowly rebuilding ).

I would appreciate it...and I agree, in many ways, the
K'Kree (as a race) are the ones to fear...
+-----------------+--------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins    | email: igor@netins.net                           |
| Igor Software   | www:                                             |
+-----------------+--------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed with the beauty that has touched mine.            |
|             -- Number Ten Ox, Bridge of Birds                      |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 02:56:22 -0500
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 559
Message-ID: <199601210756.CAA03456@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

  What's going on? Why are we getting two copies of every message in the
last few Digests? Is someone's mail bouncing back onto the
Traveller@MPGN.COM address?


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 03:01:32 -0500
From: traveller@MPGN.COM
Message-ID: <199601210801.DAA03579@mail.intercon.com>

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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 02:56:39 -0500
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From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@mpgn.com>
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 559
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

  What's going on? Why are we getting two copies of every message in the
last few Digests? Is someone's mail bouncing back onto the
Traveller@MPGN.COM address?


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 12:18:04
From: jamesd@loki.spirit.net.au (James Dempsey)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Pieces & Parts for FFS
Message-ID: <21f5eff7.d0c49-jamesd@loki.spirit.net.au>

On Jan 19 Joseph Heck wrote:

> > From: "Bruce Johnson" <JOHNSON@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
>
> > The hard part, like an OOP, is building the
> > $@#!##@ objects the first time. Net.Book anyone? (depending, of course on
> > whatever the copyright issues are for publishing designed based on
> > FFS...Have you gotten that far yet, Mark?)
>
> There's already some of that happening, although nothing organized.
> I've been keeping archives of all the starships & such [..]
> For example, I have in the archives a design for a TL14 700Mj Laser...
>
> If we stick with FFS, then there's already quite a collection of
> interesting pieces out there...
>
> (http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/archive/TNE/FFS.designs/TL14.700Mj.
Laser.txt)
>
To be really useful, we should add some sort of organisation to the
collection, say a further grouping, or an index. The grouping and/or index
should separate things into categories such as different ships systems
and weapons, much like the chapters in FFS. So your laser would be listed
under the categories Weapons, Lasers, TL14 etc. As a further improvement,
adding a search engine to the system would make it invaluable.

Mind you, this would take a LOT of work to set up and maintain. IMHO it
would need to be a group project. Obviously it would make no sense to
start this sort of thing until we know which way ship design is going...

BFN,
James Dempsey                     ///
----------------------------     ///
 jamesd@spirit.com.au        \\\///
                              \XX/



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:28:59 GMT
From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Modular FFS
Message-ID: <159@odonovan.demon.co.uk>

David C. Broussard wrote :

> We can use the basics of FF&S to design components that fit into vehicles,
> starships, etc.  For example.  You want to build a starship.  It will be a
> custom built hull (most ships are anyway).  However, you decide you want to
> get Jump 3 performance.  So the contractor building it plops in a basic
> component that gives your rated 50 or 100 ton hull increment.  It may waste

I don't think anyone would argue with a modular approach, but it can be taken
too far. After all, say I wanted a jump 4 1000t ship, I need to install 10 of
the 100t designed modules. Does this approach really give any benefit over a
module designed for a 1t ship, which could then have mass/price/volume
multiplied by the displacement?

> Instead of custom
> building a powerplant for the exact MW req for your ship, you purchase
> plants in 10, 25, 50, 100 MW increments.  Gee this does sound a bit liek old

Likewise here, say I need 1050MW, I have to install 10 100MW modules and a
50MW. This has got to be more complicated than a table where the
vol/mass/price/vol of 90 days fuel are all listed per Megawatt of power for
each power plant. This way you find your power requirement, multiply all the
values for the chosen type of plant by it, and you have an easy custom
powerplant. I don't think the problem here is the rules as much as the way GDW
presents them (HEPlaR is probably the worst).

One major simplification which I would like to see is any subsystem where price
/mass/volume/power requirement is less than, for example 0.01
MCr/tonnes/kl/MW, to have that attribute officially listed as 'negligable'.
On a lot of my electronics heavy designs I end up adding up columns of devices
with a total volume of a few kl, in a ship with a volume of thousands, and I am
always left thinking _why?_
These small values would add up in a probe, or a fighter, but for a streamlined
FFS optimised for Spacecraft, I think we could dispense with some of these
little details.

> Hope this helps!
> David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)
> Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
> the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
> philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
> REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
> -----------------------------------------------------------------

--
Brendan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:57:24 +1100 (EST)
From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Plague of ???? and Nth Interstellar War
Message-ID: <199601211357.AAA18915@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>

Someone mentioned that the canonical reason for Terran victory in the Nth
Interstellar War was some sort of plague that hit the Vilani. Sorry, but
I've never come across this one ... but will freely admit that I do not have
a 100% complete set of Traveller/MTrav/TNE gear ... so, *where* is it
mentioned? I have a friend who *has* as complete a set of Traveller gear
as it is possible to have, and *he* has never heard of it.

However, to be fair, "canonical" Traveller also allows Jump Missiles (2 tons),
when "canonical" Traveller *also* notes that JDrives cannot be mounted in
anything smaller than 100 tons! Even if such a plague *is* mentioned, then
we can assume that it is Rule of Man/Vilani *propaganda* history to save face
for the fact that they were outproduced and outfought by the Terrans. It seems
so much better if they succumbed to a filthy, perfidious, Terran *disease* -
those lousy Terrans weren't fighting fair!!!

Regardless, from what we know of the history of diseases on Terra, it seems
unlikely in the extreme that some sort of nasty Terran-originated disease
would have been such a killer that it would have enabled the Terrans to beat
the Ziru Sirka simply because of it. I would suggest that anyone who wants
to know why this is the case read "Plagues and Peoples" by William H. McNeill.

However, just consider a few facts that make the plague scenario unlikely.
One, the biggest killer in modern times, disease wise, was the so-called
Spanish Influenza which broke out at the end of WW1. It was, as I have been
given to understand by several sources, far and away the most virulent
plague of modern times ... yet it was really rather trivial in an overall
sense. Sure, a hell of a lot of people died, perhaps as many as died in WW1,
but that was peanuts.

More virulent diseases *do* exist, pneumonic plague, for example. However,
in that case, the disease is *so* virulent and *so* quick acting that it
basically kills off its human victims so quickly that it cannot spread (at
least at medieval rates of travel). Given that every Jump takes at least a
week, then such a disease would kill the entire crew of a starship while
it was in Jumpspace ... and leave no infectious material that I am aware
of that would still *be* infectious after the bodies were dead for a week
or more. Most of the really nasty diseases of modern times, things like
Ebola and AIDS, are so difficult to catch that you practically have to go
out and deliberately infect oneself.

Thus, even with something as virulent as Spanish 'Flu, the effects would
*not* be enough to win the war for the Terrans *unless* they were already
winning. (Did you know that the US Government actually continued to ship
soldiers to Europe in crowded troopships in 1917, at the height of the 'flu
outbreak, even though they *knew* that they were condemning hundreds, if
not thousands, to death as a result of putting them in the sort of enclosed
environment that guaranteed a high rate of exposure? The US provided the
troops that materially shortened the war ... and morale was evidently not
a problem despite this.)

Anyhow, given McNeill's evidence that almost all (if not *all*) diseases
have been crossovers from animals, and that not all such crossovers are
successful, then it seems to me that the Vilani would have encountered this
sort of problem on the thousands of worlds that they had explored and
settled prior to contact with Terra. Also, given the situation we know of
from Traveller sources re the development of human civilisation on Vland,
we can assume that there would have been mutations of bacteria normally
found on or associated with humans (and viruses, of course) that would have
made disease at least reasonably common in Vland even before contact with
other worlds. I have never been able to accept the blithe assumption that
the Vilani would be disease free and would have never developed the germ
theory of disease ... after all, they had first hand evidence of the
possibilities of such diseases from their long historical contacts with
the Droyne on their homeworld ... *and* they had an awful example of the
possibilities of germ warfare from what happened to the native Droyne in
their system when they regained contact (which is in itself doubtful -
the thought that the diseases that killed them off could have been so
specific as to only affect different racial types, *and* that they remained
unmutated for tens of thousands of years, is, frankly, garbage. Diseases
mutate over time, and many once lethal diseases are now nothing more than
a childhood nuisance, if that).

Nope, you can *still* explain away the supposed effects of this plague that
I have never heard about as a crude piece of Vilani propaganda that has
been put forth as "truth" by the RoM and current Imperium for so long that the
*true* story (my version) is not even recognised as "true".

Like I said, between my story and the certainty of Imperial manipulation of
the historical record, there's *nothing* that can't be adequately explained!

Still, I'd like to see what the reference too this plague is!

Oh, and the damn listserver is *still* sending multiple copies of both
individual articles in the list *and* of the whole list. Is it possible that
someone could do something about it?

Phil McGregor






------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 02:53:31 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: technology and war
Message-ID: <w4V2HD3w165w@krypton.rain.com>

htp@dove.mtx.net.au (Henry Penninkilampi) writes:

>Example...
>There was a movie made quite a few years ago which had a US aircraft
>carrier sent back in time into World War II.  I think it was called the
>Philadelphia Experiment.

Nope. "The Final Countdown".

>I forget how it ended, but had the TL6 (1950s) US
>military acquired unrestricted use of a single TL8 (1990s) military asset,
>then the entire outcome of the war, and the history of mankind, would have
>changed.  Why?  Not because the AXIS powers would have been slowly and
>surely beaten into submission, but because, in quite short order, they
>would have realised that they had fallen so far behind in a single,
>crucial, technological field that they had virtually no chance of catching
>up berfore biting the big one.  Rather than suffer any more military,
>economic and political damage pursuing a lost cause - they would have
>capitulated.
>
>Take the above example and give the Germans an TL8 aircraft carrier and the
>AXIS powers would have won.  Now we have victory by way of technological
>superiority - not economic superiority.

Which is pretty much what happened in the Gulf War.

But as to the "1990s carrier in 1941", this has been a frequent
discussion topic, with numerous variations, in various online groups.

My favorite method of using it (if you get there early enough) is to
simply send out a flight of aircraft with nuke capability, and *remove*
the Japanese attack force just as they are starting to launch the
planes for the attack. And don't say *anything* to Japan about it.

Even the Japanese would get rattled when a task force disappears
without a trace.

Then, as soon as you can get in range, you repeat this sort of
"disappeared without a trace" attack on the other thrusts of the war in
the Pacific. *Then* it is suggested in an understated sort of way, that
just *possibly* the Japanese might wish to reconsider their expansion.

Now consider the Traveller equivalent. It doesn't take all that many
tech levels for things to be "magic" as far as the folks at the lower
tech level are concerned.

Leonard Erickson           leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com
(aka Shadow)    shadow@krypton.rain.com (preferred)
FIDO:   1:105/51  Leonard.Erickson@f51.n105.z1.fidonet.org


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End of TRAVELLER Digest 560
***************************
