TRAVELLER Digest 564

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TNE is TRAVELLER! by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  2) 3D space and economics. by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  3) Re: TRAVELLER digest 563 - Plague of ???? and Nth War by Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
  4) Whither 2300AD? by eackerma@vt.edu (Eric Ackermann)
  5) Re: 3D Space by Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
  6) Small Traveller Auction/Sale by muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (Kovalic, John)
  7) Mixed Bag by htp@dove.mtx.net.au (Henry Penninkilampi)
  8) Re: Pieces & Parts for FFS by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
  9) RE: 3D-Space by "Bruce Johnson" <JOHNSON@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
 10) Re: Traveller Digest 550 by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@csn.net>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 22:22:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: Trav Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: TNE is TRAVELLER!
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960122220408.14860A@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

In Traveller Digest 555, Susan M. Shock writes:

>>>>>
        When Traveller does come back, you better hope it does so with a
state-of-the-art 1990's era system, or you'll be mourning it's death again
before long. Classic Traveller belongs to the 1970's; there it should
remain. TNE may have had flaws, but at least it looked and played like
TODAY'S RPG's.
<<<<<

I have to disagree.  "TODAY's RPG's" include Battletech/Mechwarrior, which
uses a resolution system essentially equivalent to CT.  As I recall, it
has had more than a modicum of success.  If you are talking about
character generation, I think CT needs a little fixing (no survival roll,
give advanced generation to non-military types, etc.), but I still think
it makes a good quick character.  It is certainly superior to White Wolf's
"min-max or die" system, and to Shadowrun's template based character gen.
Both of these are modern RPG systems, and both have been quite successful.
In terms of look, I agree that CT's zen-like simplicity would not sell to
the style-over-substance crowd which has taken over gaming in recent years.
But that says nothing to the debate over TNE vs. CT/MT rules systems.

While CT may be somewhat outdated, MT, with its armor penetration and task
resolution systems, is not.  MT, IMO, was like a good rock band with a
bad manager.  It died because of bad PR and poor production values, not
because it is a "1970's" system.

Charles.


<0>         "The mind is stranger than it can imagine."<0>
<0> Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), <0>
<0> Psychology Department, McGill University.  <0>
<0> 1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  <0>



------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 22:57:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: Trav Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: 3D space and economics.
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960122223419.15004A-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

In Traveller Digest 563, Stephan Z. wrote:

>>>>>
Keep in mind that changing from a 2d to a 3d representation of space
results in EXTREMELY different economics.
<<<<<

This was followed by a very nice analysis of the problem in terms of
accessible jump destinations.  Stephan, I agree with you that 3D space
would have some heavy effects on background.  That is the only reason why
I am not 100% behind the concept.  Still, I think with a little work
there might be ways to get around the economic and political problems.
Here are some suggestions off the top of my head (dangerous terrain, let
me warn you, especially this late):

1) Allow high-jump merchants to be more common and do better business. I
realize this changes some old ideas in Traveller, but not too radically.
The jump-range of merchants is still going to be limited by drive cost.

2) Make it more common for jump-1 ships to carry fuel for extra jumps so
that they can reach systems 2 or 3 parsecs away.  Compensate them
economically.

3) Recalculate the distance that a ship with Jump-x can go.  Yes, I
realize this algebraic exhertion might cause some bleeding of the ears,
but I think one of our fellow Travellers (say the radio astronomer or the
particle physicist from CERN? :-) could figure it out.

4) Recalculate payment for cargo carrying.  After all, in a free-market
economy, if conditions change, prices change.  Thus, a ship with jump-1
would be payed a low flat fee to run a standard group of systems (which is
what fat traders are supposed to do anyway), while higher jump ships would
get proportionally adjusted pay. (Any economics majors out there?)

5) The speed of transmission of messages would not be affected that much,
would it?  The distance from Capital to Regina is still going to be the
same.  Some time might be saved because more available routes makes for
more efficient travel, but I don't think there would be a radical difference.


I realize none of this is simple as pie, and I realize that it
will screw with canon, but it might be worth the effort.  Because we are
old hands at Traveller, we've grown accustomed to 2D space, but people
first approaching the game might be turned off by such a blatantly
unrealistic concept.

Yours ambivalently,
Charles.

<0>         "The mind is stranger than it can imagine."<0>
<0> Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), <0>
<0> Psychology Department, McGill University.  <0>
<0> 1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  <0>



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 17:04:47 +1000
From: Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
To: traveller@MPGN.COM (Non Receipt Notification Requested)
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 563 - Plague of ???? and Nth War
Message-ID: <460417230196*/G=Michael/S=Barry/O=FINANCE/PRMD=AUSGOVFINANCE/ADMD=T
ELEMEMO/C=AU/@MHS>

     I've followed the discussion on introduced plagues etc with some interest.
     As an Australian, I have the dubious distinction of being a member of the
     only (?) race on earth that has hunted and diseased an entire human race to
     extinction - the Tasmanian Aborigines. The ones that we didn't shoot
     managed to die of TB and influenza in concentration camps.
     Tell me again about how introduced diseases couldn't have a devastating
     impact on a society - please.


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:31:28 -0500
From: eackerma@vt.edu (Eric Ackermann)
To: ad2300@mars.galstar.com
Cc: xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Whither 2300AD?
Message-ID: <199601231431.JAA20121@sable.cc.vt.edu>

Please excuse any duplication of this cross-posted message.

I was recently contacted by an organization that is currently negotiating
with GDW about acquiring the rights to _2300AD_ (also known in its first
incarnation as _Traveller 2300_). Because negotiations are in at a delicate
preliminary stage, the above organization wishes to remain nameless.
However, they are very interested in getting as much feedback as possible
from those who own any 2300AD materials.

So here's your chance to sound off about 2300AD: likes, dislikes, what you'd
change, what you'd keep, you'd like to see, what new products, design
philosophy (e.g., more detail vs less detail, etc), why you play it/don't
play it, good/bad experiences with the game, you name it! Also include your
primary interest in the game: as player, gamemaster, collector (or any
combination of the above). All responses will be forwarded to the interested
organization.

I would prefer if you posted any response(s) to the list in order to
interest anyone who may have missed the original message. In any case, I'll
be looking forward to hearing from everyone soon.

Eric Ackermann
Special Collections/University Libraries
Virginia Tech
eackerma@vt.edu

Eric Ackermann
Special Collections/University Libraries
Virginia Tech


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:31:14 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM (TML Submissions)
Subject: Re: 3D Space
Message-ID: <199601231731.LAA25490@gold.missouri.edu>

Stephan Zielinski said:
> Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 13:41:05 -0800
> From: Stephan Zielinski <szielins@us.oracle.com>
> Subject: 3d space
>
[STUFF DELETED]...
> Even if we drop back ten and punt, declaring that on the average, a
> jump-1 ship can reach only one other system, we get
>
>        SYSTEMS ACCESSABLE (on the average)
>        Threespace, jump-1 ships access one system
> Jump-1   1
> Jump-2   8
> Jump-3   27
> Jump-4   64
> Jump-5   125
> Jump-6   216
>
> But now jump-1 ships cannot be expected to get more than a few parsecs
> from their shipyards under their own steam.  Doubling the amount of
> cash spent on drives and fuel results in an eightfold increase in
> possible destinations.

I went ahead and spent some time developing a small section of space from
the Gliese maps, and found that on the average, most stars were over 2
parsecs away, and you'd be lucky to get a cluster of more than about
5 systems within 2 parsecs.

There were, however, some noticable runs if you got into the right system
and pushed the limits up to 2.5 parsecs. Ships that are capable of Jump 3
have very few places they can't get to, and a Jump 6 ship can go pretty
much anywhere it pleases.

If you have WWW access, you can look at the info:

   http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/3d/cluster.html
   http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/3d/inrange.html

These are both scripts that run on our heavily loaded server, so don't
be surprised it response is slow. I generally start from star number 587,
which is the "home star" for my game.
--
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@missouri.edu           http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 imprenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:59:57 -0600
From: muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (Kovalic, John)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Small Traveller Auction/Sale
Message-ID: <199601231759.LAA13316@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com>

Hi, all,

I'm holding a small auction/sale of classic Traveller items. This will be
the only notice I post here (sorry about this, but some people don't have
access to Usenet).

I'd like to sell them as a group, so for *everything*, the first bid over
$250 gets it. Otherwise, they'll run as an auction until Feb. 14.

Rules to follow.

GAMES

Azhanti High Lightning - punched, some box wear, otherwise very good shape
(min. bid; $50)

Azhanti High Lightning Rule Book - not sure how I got this extra one. (min.
bid: $2)

Fifth Frontier War - punched, some box wear, otherwise very good shape
(min. bid: $20)


ALIEN MODULES

Aslan (Module 1) - cover wear,  otherwise good shape (min. bid: $7)

Vargr (Module 2) - slight cover wear, otherwise very good shape (min. bid: $7)


JOURNAL OF THE TRAVELLER'S AID SOCIETY

JTAS #3 - slight cover wear, otherwise very good shape (min. bid: $10)

JTAS #20 - *very* slight cover wear, otherwise very good shape (min. bid: $3)


BOOKS

The Traveller Book - hardcover, slight cover scuffing, otherwise very good
shape (min. bid: $10)

The Traveller Adventure - very good shape (min. bid: $10)


BOOKLETS

Book 5 (High Guard) - very good shape (min. bid: $3)

Book 6 (Scouts) - very good shape (min. bid: $3)

Supplement 1 (1001 Characters) - cover scuffing (min. bid: $2)

Supplement 4 (Citizens of the Imperium) - cover scuffing (min. bid: $2)

Supplement 6 (76 Patrons) - cover scuffing (min. bid: $2)

Adventure 1 (The Kininur) - cover scuffing (min. bid: $2)


RULES:

1) All bid increments $1, up to $20. Over $20, bid increments $2. Over $50,
bid increments $3. Over $100, bid increments $4.

2) Buyer pays postage, normally around $5 for UPS shipping. Buyer chooses
shipping method.

3) (You'll like this one) Once checks clear, packages will be shipped
within 7 days, or buyer will receive a 15% refund in purchase price, along
with goods. If packages are not shipped within 14 days, buyer receives a
25% refund, as well as goods.

(My last auction was *much* too big, and I had some delays in getting
packages out in a timely fashion. That should NOT be a problem this time,
nevertheless, this clause is added for the buyers' benefit.)

4) Non-North American bids will be accepted, but shipping charges may be
much higher. In some cases, EXTREMELY so. Thank the post office.

5) Payment of winning bids to arrive within 10 days of notification,
otherwise item will be offered to next-highest bidder. Payment to be made
by check or money order in US funds.

6) (Not really a rule, more like a plea) PLEASE don't bid on anything
unless you REALLY intend to purchase it! Some of the items here were
"bought" in previous auctions, and then never collected.

7) a "Going, going GONE" system will be used.


any questions should be sent to:

John Kovalic
4679 Goodland Park Rd.
Madison, WI 53711

(608) 222-5522

muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com

Again, sorry about posting this here. From here on out, this will be on
rec.games.frp.marketplece.

JK



------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 03:15:06 +1030
From: htp@dove.mtx.net.au (Henry Penninkilampi)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Mixed Bag
Message-ID: <v01530500ad2aa84a0f29@[203.15.30.48]>

Phil McGregor (on the technical difficulties currently being experienced):

>Oh, and the damn listserver is *still* sending multiple copies of both
>individual articles in the list *and* of the whole list. Is it possible
>>that someone could do something about it?

Hear, hear!

---

Leonard Erickson (on Technology and War):

>>Now we have victory by way of technological
>>superiority - not economic superiority.
>
>Which is pretty much what happened in the Gulf War.

Spot on.  Technological impact on the outcome of conflicts cannot simply be
dismissed.  The biggest economies DON'T always win.

>Now consider the Traveller equivalent. It doesn't take all that many
>tech levels for things to be "magic" as far as the folks at the lower
>tech level are concerned.

How many people living in 1950 (TL6) would have thought that man could walk
on the moon?  By 1970 (TL7) it had happened.  A single technology level
difference allowed things to happen that few would have believed possible.

Phillip McGregor (in Digest 548) identifies "The absolutely, completely,
*inexcusibly* unworkable Technology Level system" as one of the things that
he feels should be revamped in the new release of the Traveller mechanics.

Since differences in technology must be quantifiable to be integrated into
the mechanics, all that remains is a matter of resolution.  While some
(many, even) may have a problem with the generic extended hexadecimal range
supported in all Traveller releases so far, how many would like to see
*hundreds* of levels of resolution for the specific field of "Personal
Combat Weaponry"?  What about "Propulsion Devices"?  What about
"Communications"?

When a game abstracts such a concept as technology, the designers must
compromise resolution with playability.  "Hard-wired" support for a generic
20-30 levels of resolution, and encouragement to use the "official"
technology level as a guide (and to flesh out specific technologies as and
when required) is fine by me.  I don't want to deal with high levels of
resolution (such as FF&S offers) for every aspect of the game - just the
one's I'm particularly keen on.

This is why a modular approach is what I'd like to see worked into the game
- it has the flexibility to offer different levels of resolution in
different areas, according to the desires of the participants.

---

Phillip McGregor (on Costs & Production of starships):

>Think about it, we're talking about c5500 AD, right?  OK, there have been
>some "dark age" interludes (where some planets at least kept space and
>starflight, so they didn't get knocked all the way back).  Yet it takes
>12 months to produce a 100 ton Star/Spaceship! 9 months if its a
>Scout/Courier, because they're so common. Hm, we can, *right now* produce
>a Boeing 747 in, what, a day or so when the production line is fully
>geared up? A 747 weighs around 170 tons *unloaded*.

Just out of curiosity, what resource identifies the amount of *time*
required to manufacture a starship?  FF&S?  I must have missed it.

As for how long it takes to make a starship - the amount of time that it
takes to roll off the production line may pale into significance when
compared to the time it will take to run a full spectrum of
"space-worthiness" tests.  It could take a bunch of technicians and a
skeleton ship's crew months to clear a subsidised liner, the fact that it
was thrown together in a few days/weeks has little to do with it (actually,
now that I think of it, the faster that craft are assembled, the more
likely that errors were made, and the longer it would take to clear - this
sort of balances the whole thing out).

Personally, I actually *like* the idea of starships (especially the larger
ones) taking a long, long time to build.  Let's talk 5 or so years for
anything in the vicinity of 100,000 tons, for illustration purposes.  If
big ships take a long time to build, it give lots of opportunity to
infiltrate the assembly team with agents, sabotage the construction
facility, target the site with a special operations group - heaps of
possibilities!  If they're whipping them out at the rate of one a day, who
really cares?

(Out of curiosity, any trekkers out there know the displacement and
construction time of the Enterprise-D?)

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|               Henry Penninkilampi (htp@dove.mtx.net.au)                |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|       "Microsoft - Redefining darkness as an industry standard."       |
|                  Stop the hegemony. Join EvangeList!                   |
|   Email <macway-request@solutions.apple.com> for an automatic reply.   |
|     Archives are at: <http://wais.sensei.com.au/searchform.html>.      |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:44:25 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@whip.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Pieces & Parts for FFS
Message-ID: <199601231844.AA24872@ns-1.csn.net>

At 06:28 am 1/21/96 -0500, jamesd@loki.spirit.net.au (James Dempsey) wrote:
>On Jan 19 Joseph Heck wrote:
>> If we stick with FFS, then there's already quite a collection of
>> interesting pieces out there...
>>
>>
(http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/archive/TNE/FFS.designs/TL14.700Mj
.Laser.txt)
>>
>To be really useful, we should add some sort of organisation to the
>collection, say a further grouping, or an index. The grouping and/or index
>should separate things into categories such as different ships systems
>and weapons, much like the chapters in FFS. So your laser would be listed
>under the categories Weapons, Lasers, TL14 etc. As a further improvement,
>adding a search engine to the system would make it invaluable.
>
>Mind you, this would take a LOT of work to set up and maintain. IMHO it
>would need to be a group project. Obviously it would make no sense to
>start this sort of thing until we know which way ship design is going...

        Or we could try to influence the way ship design is going, by making
all this stuff available for it, and try to convince Marc Miller, et. al.,
that we want to keep it. For that matter, given the precedent, if a new
system DOES come out, there's likely to be a number of people who prefer to
stick with FF&S ... For myself, any new system is going to have to be at
LEAST as detailed as FF&S to satisfy me.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@whip.com
  http://www2.csn.net/~goldendj/index.html -- Last updated 20 Jan 96

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:49:14 MST7
From: "Bruce Johnson" <JOHNSON@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: 3D-Space
Message-ID: <1978F7A6B55@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>

The problem with your analysis, Stephan, is that along with cubing
the space a given Jump drive could reach, you also cubed the density
of systems.

By assuming that subsectors still had 40 systems/subsector, yet
mapping that to 3-space, you in effect took the number of hexes in a
subsector and set that same number in a three dimensional space.

 Now, instead of a subsector having a 2-space area of 80 (8x10
parsecs) hexes, the same subsector set into 3-space is the cube root
of 80 per side, or a bit over 4.3 parsecs on a side.  If you want to
maintain the same 'form factor' of the Traveler maps, a 4x5 hex map,
4 hexes deep holds the same number of hexes as a flat 8x10 one.

Three things could be done...

One, maintain the same number of systems
in that newly reduced subsector. This gives rise to Jump-1 =3, Jump 2
=27, etc progression you noted.

Two, increase the number of hexes (to say 8 x 10 x 8) holding the
same number of systems, which will drastically reduce the density,
but maintain the Jump-X = Y systems formula. Trying to maintain that
formula reduces the three space back to the same 8x10 2-d map we all
know, simplifying the mapping requirements considerably.

Three, and most untenable of the three, except in the case of
completely non-canon universes, reduce the number of systems in the
subsector. As I said, this is the most untenable of the three: "What
do you MEAN, Glisten doesn't exist anymore!!!"

Unfortunately for all the third-dimensioners out there, there isn't,
to my mind, any easy way of converting Trav to 3-d space maps at this
time without throwing out everything that's come before, AND creating
a horrific navigation hassle. 2-d maps can be navigated very simply,
3-d just can't, particularly at a pencil/paper level.

Requiring a computer to run a trav game would be daring, and in
keeping with an advanced SF RPG, but it would also doom Traveller.
I'm not going to drag my computer out to the dining room table
whenever we want to play; The office, where the computer normally
resides, doesn't have the room, and unless you're going to buy it
for me, I'm not getting a laptop anytime soon...something about
mortgage and utility payments getting in the way ;-) That eliminates
going anywhere by my place to play.

Three-D worked in 2300AD because it was very limited in size, and
all the routes were laid out, AND it had an entirely different style
of FTL drive.


Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 14:39:13 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@csn.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Traveller Digest 550
Message-ID: <199601232139.AA02134@ns-1.csn.net>

Finally getting around to replying to this

At 03:23 pm 1/17/96 -0500, William F. Hostman wrote:
>As for TNE Being more successful than MT: I have yet to see any proof of
>that. My friendly neighborhood game store couldn't keep MT stocked
>sufficiently; they can't get rid of TNE. Peter had to order 35 copies or
>more of MT items; He orders 5 each for TNE, and still has half a dozen 1st
>printing TNE Ruleboooks in the warehouse... That no one will buy. I ask you
>Merrick, is THAT the success you talk about for TNE? (figures provided by
>Peter Neuman of Bosco's Comics and Games, the only store in anchorage that
>carries more than TSR and WWG)

        Well, my proof that TNE sold better than MT is just the opposite --
I could almost _never_ find anything for MT. None of the game stores local
to San Bernardino carried it. What little I found, I found while travelling
(no pun intended), and even then it was stuff that had just sat there and
wound up marked down. TNE, on the other hand, I've had little or no trouble
finding.
 ___________________________________________________________________
  Dave Golden                              PGP Public Key available
  goldendj@whip.com
  http://www2.csn.net/~goldendj/index.html -- Last updated 20 Jan 96

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine


------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 564
***************************
