Traveller-digest            Thursday, 9 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 001

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. ADVERTISMENT: www.mpgn.com
         2. [none]
         3. Re: Formulas for gunfreaks
         4. Returned mail: Can't create output: Error 0

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 14:14:35 -0400
Subject: ADVERTISMENT: www.mpgn.com

Multi-Player Games Network, our host for the mailing list, would like me to
post this announcment here.  They let us have this list for free, so one ad
in two years shouldn't offend any one :-)  Besides, some of this is of
interest to people on this list any way.

        Multi-Player Games Network would like to announce the availablity of
        its World Wide Web home page, and a new Windows95 based network --
        MPG-Net Showcase.

        The Web pages can be seen at:  http://www.mpgn.com
        Included at the site is a tour of the System Access Software, and all
        of the multi-player games that we currently have online.  You can also
        read reviews of our products as well.  You can create an account, and
        download the software to get started playing right away.  

        MPG-Net Showcase consists of the Win95 System Access Software (SAS)
        and Win95 frontends of our games.  The frontends are free to download
        from the web site.  All you need to play is machine capable of running
        Win95 (486/33 8mb RAM) and access to the Internet via Winsock.  A
        Pentium with 16 mb of RAM is suggested.

        The games that are currently on line include:
     
              * The Kingdom of Drakkar -- Fantasy Role Playing, quests, etc.
              * Empire Builder -- Based on the Mayfair Game, you and upto five
                others try to build a nation spanning rail-road system.
              * Minion Hunter -- Based on the GDW board game, which is based
                on Dark Conspiracy, you and upto five others work together to
                fend of the Dark Minions and their quest to take over the world.
              * Operation: Market-Garden -- Based on the GDW board game, you 
                command troops on either the Axis or Allied sides as you try
                your hand at the largest Airborne operation of WWII.
              * Imperium -- Based on the GDW board game, which is based on
                Traveller, you go head to head against another to control 
                space near Terra/Sol.

        So check out the web page, read about the games, and give MPG-Net 
        Showcase a spin!!!  You get five free hours to try it out.  After
        that, the rate is $2.00 US an hour to play. 

Wew, that was painless.  Any way, for you Imperium fans, we do have Imperium
on line.  Also, I will probably be starting up a Classic Traveller Online
game in 
the next few weeks.  I hope to use the web to distribute maps, text, and other
information, and MPG-Net Showcase's conference rooms to conduct the sessions.

Again sorry for the blatent commericalisam, but they are nice enough to give us
this list!!!

Rob
- --
Rob Miracle (rwm@TanSoft.com)| GCS d-->--- s:++ a34 w+ !v C++>++++ UU++++$ P---
Tantalus Inc.  Key West, FL  | L+ E--- W+++ N+++ o K-  w+ O- M-- V-- PS+ PE 
Contrary to popular belief,  | (-po+) Y-- PGP- t++ !5>++ X-- R+++ tv+++ b DI+++
I don't know what I'm doing. | D G+ e++ h---- r+++ y++++ (Geek Code 3.14)


------------------------------

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Subject: [none]

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			    TRAVELLER Digest 652

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TL/Price issues
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
  2) Traveller Word Generator
	by "Vaclav G. Ujcik" <102726.2151@compuserve.com>
  3) The "New Traveller" Mailing List
	by FKiesche3@aol.com
  4) Re: The "New Traveller" Mailing List
	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
  5) Re: [T648] RICE Papers
	by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
  6) Re: The "New Traveller" Mailing List
	by "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
  7) Still time to vote!
	by "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
  8) Re: Tech/Price Differences
	by Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
  9) Re: Tech/Price Differences
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Apr 1996 21:02:26 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TL/Price issues
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960407210037.14379A-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Sun, 7 Apr 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> > 	An excerpt from the article:
> > 	"For example, a player wishes to purchase a map box on a tech 6 
> > world.  The base price of a map box is Cr 2500 (Traveller, Book 4, 
> > Mercenary, p 42) and it can be produced on worlds with a tech level of 9 
> > or higher.  To obtain the price of the map box on a tech 6 world, convert 
> > the base price from local currency to Imperials at its point of 
> > production.  Consulting the table, a tech 9 world with type A starport 
> > has an exchange rate of .7 credits per Imperial, thus making the price of 
> > th map box Cr 1750 (Imperial).  The player is on a tech 6 world with a 
> > class D starport, which has an exchange rate of .40 credits per 
> > Imperial.  Dividing 1750 by .40, the player discovers that the local 
> > price for the item is Cr 4375."
> > 
> > 	The system really is sensible, and I believe it solves your price 
> > concerns.  Best of the JTAS issues are not hard to come by - I 
> > recommend you get this issue if you do not already own it.  
> > 	Concerns over size, however, are not solved by it.  But, perhaps 
> > you can come up with solutions for that portion.
> 
> Actually, it's a bit goofy, IMO.  Look at the example above.  The item
> lists for 2500Cr in Bk4.  On a TL15 world the map box costs 2500 Cr, on
> the TL6 world mentioned, it costs 4375 *local* credits, but converting
> to back to Imperial the price is 1750Cr!  The 1750Cr price is due to the
> TL9 world of origin of the product.  Chadwick uses the table as an
> _exchange rate_ so the only real changes in price are based on world of
> origin TL of production.  If you assume that the listed price is in
> Imperials at the TL listed...

	Woops, you're right.  I was thinking of it in terms of your 
solution, even though it clearly states the exchange rate factor.  Drat.

> You could use this table in a different way to some use, however.
> Use the table, but assume any listed price/TL is the price for
> manufacture in Imperial Credits at the TL mentioned.

	Yes, that would be the way to use it, IMO as well.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



- ------------------------------

Date: 08 Apr 96 06:33:04 EDT
From: "Vaclav G. Ujcik" <102726.2151@compuserve.com>
To: Traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>

------------------------------

From: Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 08:27:56 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Re: Formulas for gunfreaks

Anders Backman (anders.backman@macademic.se) wrote:

>...
>I myself use the formula
>d = k * m * v / (c^2)

Sorry, there is a major bug in Your derived formula. The quick and dirty
formula for penetration is:

>d = k * m * (v^2) / (c^2)
And in fact, simply is the energy/surface the projectile has. However, all
formulas to calculate penetration have to be used carefully, because materials
are very different and the toughnes of materials does not increase linearily
with their thickness.

There is in fact no other exact way to determine if a projectile penetrates
so and so much cm of that material except shooting at it. I think there
are very complex computer simulations for this, but they are not exact, too.

If You are looking at the formulas You will know they can't be exact (or
even almost exact) because they mess up with the units.

Thomas Kathmann

------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 04:01:33 -0700
Subject: Returned mail: Can't create output: Error 0

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in store 
in deliver 
before get_filesystem in deliver 
in get filesystem file = /disk1/tkinias/asu_mailbox 
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after get filesystem 
filesystem user is on is /disk1
before  getquota 
after getquota 
Over hard quota will bounce , soft=6000 hard=10000 curr=10180 mailbox=/disk1/tkinias/asu_mailbox
close mbfd /disk1/tkinias/asu_mailbox 
***************************************************
 USER IS OVER QUOTA  
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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 683
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			    TRAVELLER Digest 683

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Aqua/space craft
	by Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
  2) Binaries on TML
	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
  3) Re: Aqua/space craft
	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
  4) Re: TRAVELLER digest 681
	by paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk (Paul Radford)
  5) Equations for projectiles
	by "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 08 May 1996 12:53:37 +0200
From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Aqua/space craft
Message-ID: <31907D31.41C67EA6@ifi.uio.no>

Mark Urbin wrote:
> 
> >Is there anywhere rules for designing aqua-space craft.
> >They would have to have underwater propulsion systems as part of the ship.
> Standard streamlined spacecraft with Thruster Plates will do quite nicely.
> 
Funny, one of my players asked me this last night, but we play using HEPlaR.
How would this type of engine do underwater, can they be used to create propultion
under water?

I figure that an output that creates a pressure higher thab the waterpressure would
at least keep water out. I guess that propultion would woork also but would that 
leave a rather distinct heattrack from the vaporized water.

Any comments ?

- -- 
- ---------------------------
Tommy Grav         | tommyg@ifi.uio.no
University in Oslo | <A HREF=http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html> The Terran
Confederation </A>
Norway             |        No qoute yet.

- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 12:39:32 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Binaries on TML
Message-ID: <v02140b01adb65373e1bd@[130.238.188.224]>

To Dave.nacht@neosoft.com and anybody else on the list.
NO BINARIES ON THE LIST
Use e-mail and/or ftp for that.

/Backman



- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 12:44:46 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Aqua/space craft
Message-ID: <v02140b02adb6548a2351@[130.238.188.224]>

>>Ice buildup?  Why operate out the North Atlantic when you can operate in the
>>deep waters near Hawaii?  :-)
>
>        Because if you restrict where you operate, you make yourself easier
>to find and target?

Ice buildup? Water gets most dense at +4 degrees centrigrade so if your
oceans aren't deepfrozen no ice will form on the SDB/sub unless you surface
often.
If you surface often in a warsituation the ice will be melted off by your
enemys lasers as they vaporize you :)

/Backman



- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 14:32:47 +0000
From: paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk (Paul Radford)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 681
Message-ID: <v01510106adb63e2028ce@[128.243.213.247]>


>From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk

>You use d6's for your weapons?
>Thats why they're unrealistic, try d10's.

Thats what happens when you go off to aberdeen. You don't get to hear that
our group already does that, or did. I got the idea from this list.

Now i use another system. To make things a little more worrying, i do not
use the hit location chart anymore with the exception of being hit by
autofire and with precise aiming into various body locations. Generally (
and i think this is true in real life, tell me otherwise if i am wrong) a
person shooting at another will tend to instinctively shoot at the chest
and abdomen as it is presents the largest target with a higher probability
of hits, with greater chance of incapacitating or killing. Professional
users of firearms are tought to 'double tap' targets in the chest for good
reason.

Thus in Traveller (and i am talking TNE) most combats tend to involve a lot
of chest damage. I've found my players starting to worry about the damage
they are receiving now its hits almost entirely to the body area.


>Is there anywhere rules for designing aqua-space craft.

I believe that traveller space craft are capable of operating in water to
some extent. Underwater SDB bases for instance, and most atmosphere capable
ships can certainly land in water (see one of the MT book covers...can't
remember which one it was) which aids ocean refuelling when land masses are
scarce.

I do not know how well HEPLAR (TNE) drives will function under water, but
i'm sure MT thruster plates would perform adequately.

To arm a star ship with torpedos would be silly IMHO. A starship has a
primary role for interplanetary or interstellar operations. The torpedos
would be wasteful on internal volume. Better to fit more useful equipment.
Fitting of torpedo's, a fairly antiquated technology at TL-10+ is best
assigned to purpose built submersibles. Submarines would make useful
planetary defense role is carrying a meson weapon or PDM's.



>The ship would have to be laid out differently.
>Go on! Design me a ship (max 350 tonnes).

Erm... see the Shukugan (Dragon) class SDB in Brilliant Lances but thats
400 tons i'm afraid.

:)



- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul "Lynx" Radford          | paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk
Department Of Immunology     | No web page :(
Queens Medical Centre        |
Nottingham                   | BITS Member, TCS: 47th Raider Squadron
England                      | MI (UK): Lynx, Acolyte of Shroud & SSS member
(+44) 0115 9249924 ext 43494 |
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------



- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 May 1996 10:12:16 MST7
From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Equations for projectiles
Message-ID: <30BCC165EB@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>

Backman sez:

>Formula for penetration of KE projectile including bullets:
>
>d = (m^(1/2) * v/(k * c^(0.75)))^(0.7)
>
>d: Penetration in dm (1 dm = 0.1 m)
>m: Mass of projectile in kg
>c: Caliber of projectile in dm
>v: Velocity of projectile at impact in m/s, not necessarily the same
>as muzzle v k: An empirical factor measured to k=2000 - 2500 for solid
>armor piercing rounds and k=1400 - 1800 for hard core projectiles.

	d: Penetration...of what? Wood, Sand, Metal, Ballistic gel?  It 
makes a BIG difference!

	Otherwise, nice post..this gives us some real-world (TM) figures to 
play with. 

	NOW maybe I can show correctly that that $#@!%@ sniper rifle in POT 
is about 7 times too heavy!

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

- ------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 683
***************************


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #1
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Traveller-digest            Thursday, 9 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 002

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Combining the Lists.
         2. Re: Equations for projectiles
         3. [none]
         4. underwater ships
         5. TEST
         6. [none]
         7. Early colonisation
         8. Re: underwater ships
         9. TNE:  Rules Enhancements for realism
        10. VBRUN200.DLL
        11. Re: TNE:  Rules Enhancements for realism
        12. Re: Early colonisation
        13. Starship construction under different gaming systems....
        14. TRAVELLER digest 682
        15. [none]
        16. Re: Lasers and unarmoured victims

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 22:35:52 
Subject: Re: Combining the Lists.

On May 8, David wrote:

>         Some more comments on quotes. Not necessarily rules, just highly
> encouraged reminders. In addition to limiting the number of generations of
> quotes in a single message:
>
>[General etiquette guidelines snipped]
>         Also, in addition to the Web version of the FAQ, maybe we could have
> a monthly posting of a shortened FAQ, referring to the Web version _and_
> reiterating the commonly-accepted norms (call them rules if you wish) for
> participation in the list.

  I have no problems coming up with something like this if there is a demand
for it. What do other people think? Is it necessary?

  Another option which could be done either along side the periodic posting,
or instead of it, could be a general quoting/posting etiquette section
added to the main FAQ...

  BTW: For those who may not know about the FAQ. It resides at
http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd/tml-faq.html
I am happy to mail a copy to anybody who doesn't have web access. It should
also be available soon via FTP from ftp.mpgn.com.


James Dempsey
- ---------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd



------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 14:28:22 +0000
Subject: Re: Equations for projectiles

> d: Penetration...of what? Wood, Sand, Metal, Ballistic gel?  It
>makes a BIG difference!

Steel armourplate according to Rheinmetall (hardness 1?)

>Sorry, there is a major bug in Your derived formula. The quick and dirty
>formula for penetration is:
>
>>d = k * m * (v^2) / (c^2)

I have not derived my formula from Rheinmetall, I have found that impulse
per area is more accurate than energy per area when not limited to small
arms.
I agree that there is no accurate formula but the problem with the above
one (used bt BTRC in 3G^3 as well) is that it fits well with smallarms but
gives KEAP projs to much penetration. As small arms pen doesn't vary a lot
my thinking is that it's more important to make the KEAP projs fit.
Just my 0.02 Cr

/Backman



------------------------------

From: Simon Fox-Holmes <Simon.Fox-Homes@bbc.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 09 May 96 15:41:00 PDT
Subject: [none]

subscribe traveller Simon Fox Holmes

------------------------------

From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 16:47:39 +0100 (BST)
Subject: underwater ships

i wasnt realy thinking about spacecraft (interplanetary)
but the system defence lot or fighters (2 person/things) 
ready to pounce from the water.  

The ice is a bit of an abnormality, something to do with areodynamic-fighters-
with-iced_up-airframes, but i suppose this shouldnt happen, not when these
fighters have suddenly risen from the ocean to intercept an intruder, and given
the fact that its a bit cold up there, but then again forgive me as I do
agriculture and not physics :)

**To arm a star ship with torpedos would be silly IMHO. A starship has a 
**primary role for interplanetary or interstellar operations. The torpedos 
**would be wasteful on internal volume. Better to fit more useful equipment. 
**Fitting of torpedo's, a fairly antiquated technology at TL-10+ is best 
**assigned to purpose built submersibles. Submarines would make useful 
**planetary defense role is carrying a meson weapon or PDM's. 

ok it may not make any sense, for a large ship, but a small system-aqua fighter?
they may be the only quick agents able to get in, launch a torpedo at a deep
oceanic base and get out quickly.  Another thing is how fast would futuristic 
ships be able to hit the water in order to submerge, or take off.
I suppose they could carry pods.

These Heplar plates, what is the effect on the water and would it cause a
submerged craft to be easier or harder to detect than other means of propulsion?




------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 08:50 PDT
Subject: TEST

Is anyone on the list getting this?

Joel
jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com
internet multimedia trials 
intel corporation
2111 ne 25th ave, m/s: jf2-74
Hillsboro, OR 97124
(503)264-3792

"My views, opinions, etc. do not necessarily reflect those of my company...
 etc. etc...."


------------------------------

From: Jon Ruiter <JRuiter@asae.asaenet.org>
Date: Thu, 09 May 96 12:02:00 PDT
Subject: [none]

Howdy.

I'm working on a spreadsheet for MT craft design, and was wondering if   
anyone has seen an errata sheet for the MT craft design charts in the   
Ref. Manual.  Or, are there house rules you use for these charts to fix   
whatever errors have crept in... anything will be useful.

Please respond to me directly, as I currently have my subscription set to   
NOMAIL.

While I'm at it, does anyone know of a source of MT craft designs on the   
web?  Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

Jon Ruiter (jruiter@asae.asaenet.org)  

------------------------------

From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 16:29:38 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Early colonisation

Hey, I'm attempting to set up a campaign based around the theme of 
early colonisation (probably similar to the situation with the Terran 
Confederation... almost exactly, basically).  Anyway, I was 
wondering if anyone out there has any information about this and, if 
so, wouldn't mind sending it on to me.

The history (so far) says they've been in space for thirty years... 
(just a point of interest).

Thanks for your time...

Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, BSc. Archaeology (Leicester University)

  "Ha!  'Tis only a flesh wound..."

------------------------------

From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 18:33:33 +0200
Subject: Re: underwater ships

t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk wrote:
> 
> 
> These Heplar plates, what is the effect on the water and would it cause a
> submerged craft to be easier or harder to detect than other means of propulsion?

HEPlaR is not plates but stand for

  High Energy Plasma Rockets

so their effects on water would be that it vapourizes it and becomes rather 
detectable in the thermal spectrum.

- -- 
- ---------------------------
Tommy Grav         | tommyg@ifi.uio.no
University in Oslo | http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/
Norway             |        No qoute yet.

------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 10:02 PDT
Subject: TNE:  Rules Enhancements for realism

My name is Joel Lovell.  I've tried posting this before, but I
hadn't seen a single response to it, and have never seen it show
up on the digest.  So, if it has posted, and you are tired of seeing it,
please let me know!

What you will find below is an ascii "Summary" of the combat mechanics of
the GDW house d20 rules, with my changes...
I've written some simple enhancements to the TNE rule system that can be
incorporated very smoothly into the existing frame work without complicating
the system.  The GDW d20 house rules system with these modifications allows
for a very reasonable simulation of real world fire fight combat.  I've
talked to the Frank Chadwick on the combat mechanics and he admitted
basically "toning down" the lethality because "too much realism" didn't sell
- - a philosophy I find distasteful.  If anyone is interested in my military
and gaming credentials, I'd be more than happy to talk about it off line.

One of the things I did was create a spreadsheet (because it makes nice
forms) using Excel 5.0; This spreadsheet is about three pages long and is
simply a summary of the house rules tasks for combat, wounds, etc.  If you
are interested in this spreadsheet, in Excel or some other format, contact
me at....

jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com

If someone wanted to put the formatted version of this in an ftp site, I
could mail it to them.

I have gone through the trouble of creating an ascii version in a simple
outline format, and have tried to limit the line length so
as to not have this get all skewed in the formatting for the plethora of
mail readers out there, but you might still have to select the entire text,
copy it, then paste it into a word processor and choose Courier text...(when
I tried mailing it to myself it became strangely formatted) and clean up the
carriage returns...

joel

______cut here_____

GDW d20 HOUSE RULES SUMMARY

RANGED COMBAT

1.0	TASK DIFFICULTY SUMMARY	

Easy:			Asset x 4	
Average:		Asset x 2	
Difficult:		Asset x 1 	
Formidable:		Asset / 2 			
Impossible:		Asset / 4				

1.1	SMALL ARMS ASSET

Small Arms Asset:	Skill + (Str+Agil/2)  

[The averaged attribute, if greater then the skill, 
will have only half the value of the points that exceed 
the skill added to the skill.] 

1.2	SMALL ARMS RANGES

(SR)Short Range:	Modified Base Range x 1
(MR)Medium Range:	Modified Base Range x 2
(LR)Long Range:		Modified Base Range x 3
(XR)Extreme Range:	Modified Base Range x 4

1.3	AIMED DIRECT FIRE

[Assumes 1 action spent aiming]
[Also see modifiers below]

(SR)Small Arms Asset x 2
(MR)Small Arms Asset x 1
(LR)Small Arms Asset / 2
(XR)Small Arms Asset / 4

1.4	RAPID DIRECT FIRE & AUTO/BURST FIRE

(SR)Small Arms Asset X 1 - (Skill-(#shots/bursts)X(recoil value))
(MR)Small Arms Asset / 2 - (Skill-(#shots/bursts)X(recoil value))	
(LR)Small Arms Asset / 4 - (Skill-(#shots/bursts)X(recoil value))	

[Autofire Notes]

[Suppressive Fire Chance to hit is 1/4 normal at given range]

[A 1d20 is rolled for the total number of shots in the burst(s), modified as
follows:

ROF(3) lose 1d20 per range beyond short (Danger Zone = 1m)
ROF(5) lose 2d20 per range beyond short (Danger Zone = 2m)
ROF(10)lose 3d20 per range beyond short (Danger Zone = 3m)]

[Danger Zone (effective for entire turn for all fire, including suppressive)
where 1/2 of all missed dice, (including dice lost from above table) are
applied against targets in that area at 1/4 normal chance at a given range.]

[For Shotguns at Medium & Long range, treat as a 10 round burst.  Each hit
does 1d6 dmg. If an automatic shotgun, each burst is treated as a 10 round
burst.]	

1.5	SMALL ARMS MODIFIERS

Small Arms EXPERTISE
								
[Note:  Recoil Skill Bonus applies to SMALL ARMS SKILL, but only for the
purpose of calculating the recoil penalty.]

       Base
        XP   Auto Recoil  Range
Level  Cost  Miss Bonus*  Bonus**  Description
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
None 	  - 17-20  -	    -	   Normal Small Arms Skill	
I	 10 18-20  1	   15m	   Level I Exp. w/weapon skill 
II	 12 19-20  2	   20m	   Level II Exp. w/weapon skill
III	 14   20   3	   25m	   Level III Exp. w/weapon skill	

*  Recoil needs to be calculated as normal, but against the Small Arms Skill
(Not Asset) INSTEAD of basing it against the STR.  (Strength has nothing to
do with marksmanship in real life, you
can't strong arm recoil! You can only learn to re-acquire your sight picture
really fast)
** Range Bonus applies to Aimed Direct Fire Shots only.

1.6	ADDITIONAL FIRE MODIFIERS

OBSCURED TARGET: If target obscurred +1 DIFF
MOVING TARGET:  See page 294 of the rules.
OUSTANDING SUCCESS:  Doubles Damage (Accumulative w/Shrt Rng)
SHORT RANGE: Doubles Damage (Accumulative with OutstndSucss)	
TWO HAND HOLD: Reduces recoil value by 1 of Handguns
BRACING: Adds 10m to Base Rng for all direct weapons fire.
PRONE: Adds 10m to Base Rng. Can be added to bracing.
ELECTRONIC SIGHTS: All direct fire within 20m is -1 DIFF;* 
SMART LINK: If Smart Link all direct fire = -1 DIFF*
SCOPE: Add 10m per x1 power to Base Rng for Small Arms Aimed Fire.
ENHANCED ROUNDS: Add 1 to Dmg & 2 to Pen. If Pen is equal or greater than
damage, then Pen = Nil
AUTO KILL: PC or NPC.  Chest/Head Dmg = or < 1d20 roll means instant kill.
INITIATIVE: If at 0 or less - character cannot perform any actions.

*Electronic Sights and Smart Link are not accumulative with each other.

1.7	INDIRECT FIRE COMBAT	

Conventional	Forward Observer Asset / 2	
Hand-Held	Grenade Launcher Asset / 4	

[or appropriate weapon asset - whichever is lower]	

1.8	PERSONAL HIT LOCATION				

Die	Biped			Multiped	
~~~~	~~~~~			~~~~~~~~
1	Head			Head			
2	Right Arm		Forequarter		
3	Left Arm		Forequarter		
4	Chest			Forequarter		
5	Abdomen			Chest			
6	Abdomen    		Chest
7	Right Leg    		Abdomen
8	Right Leg    		Hindquarter	
9	Left Leg    		Hindquarter
10	Left Leg    		Hindquarter

1.9	DAMAGE & WOUNDING

Wound Level  Init Penalty          If Damage is:
~~~~~~~~~~~  ~~~~~~~~~~~~          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SCRATCH	         N/A		   Less than 1/2 Base	
[First Scratch Wound in 24 hour period, lose next Action.]
SLIGHT	     Total Init Adj= -1    From 1/2 Base to Base	
[Referee may penalize task rolls using limb.]
SERIOUS*  Total Init Adj= -2       From Base to Base X 2	
[Strength is halved.  To remain Conscious is a 
Difficult task --> CON  x 1 or less on d20]
CRITICAL* Total Init Adj= -5       Damage > Base x 2	
[Knocked Out & bleed to death 10 min. Chance to awaken = CON.]

*Broken Bones:  If a character takes a Serious or Critical injury from an
attack, and fails CON x 1 roll on 1d20, injury involves broken bones.

MISC Notes On
Head Injuries           Effect 		
~~~~~~~~~~~~~           ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
DMG+1d6 > CON           Target is K.O.	
[To Awaken: If DMG < or = CON x 2 then CON x 1 or less on d20]

DMG+1d6 > CON x 2       Target is K.O.	
[To Awaken: If DMG > CON x2 then CON /2 or less on d20]

SERIOUS Wound           Target is K.O.	
[If DMG > CON x2, DIFF: Form, CON]			

CRITICAL Wound          Character is Instantly Killed.

2.0	NPC STATS

Level		Init	Att	Asset	Dmg
~~~~~~		~~~~	~~~~	~~~~~	~~~
Elite		5	8	15	5
Veteran		4	7	13	4
Experienced	3	6	11	3
Novice		1	6	9	1
[See page 58 NPC details in TNE rule book.]




jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com
internet multimedia trials 
intel corporation
2111 ne 25th ave, m/s: jf2-74
Hillsboro, OR 97124
(503)264-3792

"My views, opinions, etc. do not necessarily reflect those of my company...
 etc. etc...."


------------------------------

From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 16:18:43 +0100 (BST)
Subject: VBRUN200.DLL

First off, thanks to everyone who sent me the VBRUN200.DLL file... it 
is much appreciated.  Now could you *stop* sending me it? ;-)  The 
university system is getting clogged up and they keep on sending me 
threatening letters, promising that I'm going to wake up beside a 
horses head or something.  Again, thanks but - please - no more!

Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, BSc. Archaeology (Leicester University)

  "Ha!  'Tis only a flesh wound..."

------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 9 May 1996 10:32:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: TNE:  Rules Enhancements for realism

- --
       Base
        XP   Auto Recoil  Range
Level  Cost  Miss Bonus*  Bonus**  Description
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
None      - 17-20  -        -      Normal Small Arms Skill
I        10 18-20  1       15m     Level I Exp. w/weapon skill
II       12 19-20  2       20m     Level II Exp. w/weapon skill
III      14   20   3       25m     Level III Exp. w/weapon skill
- --
 And I'm assuming if someone has over a level 3 in their SA skill, that it
would be the same as a level 3?

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France



------------------------------

From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Date: Thu, 09 May 1996 19:37:37 +0200
Subject: Re: Early colonisation

M.A.Trickett wrote:
> 
> Hey, I'm attempting to set up a campaign based around the theme of
> early colonisation (probably similar to the situation with the Terran
> Confederation... almost exactly, basically).  Anyway, I was
> wondering if anyone out there has any information about this and, if
> so, wouldn't mind sending it on to me.
> 
> The history (so far) says they've been in space for thirty years...
> (just a point of interest).
> 
> Thanks for your time...
> 
> Cheers
>           --MARK
> 
> Mark Trickett, BSc. Archaeology (Leicester University)
> 
>   "Ha!  'Tis only a flesh wound..."

Hi, I'm currently runing a game set in 2101 and have put some 
of my notes out on the www-page at

http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html

Hopes some of this could be of help.

- -- 
- ---------------------------
Tommy Grav         | tommyg@ifi.uio.no
University in Oslo | http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/
Norway             |        No qoute yet.

------------------------------

From: "Steven Alexander" <salexander@dttus.com>
Date: Thu, 09 May 96 13:34:10 CST
Subject: Starship construction under different gaming systems....

     I have been perusing various starship construction rules (in CT/MT, 
     FFS, ICE's Space Master and Trav:2300AD) and am curious about how 
     displacement tonnage is handled in Trav material versus other 
     games...basically, which one is most precise or correct based on what 
     is known.  
     
     For example, SpaceMaster says that Vol of a starship in cubic 
     meters=Mass*3, while FFS says V=Mass*14.  How does this relate to 
     displacement tonnage???  Supposedly, FFS says that each ton of liquid 
     hydrogen takes up 14 cubic meters of space.  It seems to me that 
     SpaceMaster on the other hand, says that each ton of mass takes up 3 
     cubic meters (I'm assuming here that they use water versus hydrogen 
     for their calculation).  Does anyone know how CT/MT handle this??  I 
     can't remember where the Starship Construction stuff is.  Also, how 
     does 2300AD handle this...I really can't remember.
     
     Also, another question related to CT/MT power plants...why do these 
     craft require so many MW of power???  IM not an educated 
     physicist-type as you can tell, but I know that approx. 515MW is equal 
     to about .1% of USA's annual power needs.  Some large MT warships use 
     540 billion watts and some smaller 400 ton craft use almost 1 billion 
     watts!!!!  In 2300AD, some of the larger ships require 150 to 300 MW.  
     Realistically, does all this make sense??  I can understand that a 
     jump drive would require sufficient energy, but the other ship systems 
     shouldn't require more than 50 MW on even the largest 
     starships....help!!  How many MW of energy does an wet-navy aircraft 
     carrier, nuclear sub, or cruiser produce currently???
     
     And also, over what time period does the reactor output this energy??? 
      Is this a per/kw hour type figure??  How many volts in 1 MW???
     
     Steven

------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 09 May 96 14:30:02 EDT
Subject: TRAVELLER digest 682

>> From what I remember of the 'off-the-shelf' ships from the TNE rulebook, the
main problem with the ships being submersible, assuming the hull will hold, and
HEPLAR works underwater or another propulsion system is used, is to get it to
sink in the first place.  Even the densest of ships appear to have a loaded mass
of approximatly half the ammount of water they'd displace...<<

With anti-gravity drives, do you need negative bouyancy? Can't you just "fly
down?"


------------------------------

From: uucp@uu2.psi.com
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 23:05:56 -0400
Subject: [none]

Subject: UUCP job killed
To: traveller@mpgn.com

Message from UUCP on uupsi2 Thu May  9 23:05:56 1996

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To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: TRAVELLER digest 653
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 653

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER word generator
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  2) RE: New Mailing list
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  3) Re: TRAVELLER digest 652
	by simonm@ramhb.co.nz
  4) Re: New Mailing list
	by "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
  5) Re: Sigh...splitting the list...NOT AGAIN!!!
	by "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:03:11 -0500
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER word generator
Message-ID: <199604091303.IAA27247@osh1.datasync.com>

>From: "Vaclav G. Ujcik" <102726.2151@compuserve.com>
>Subject: Traveller Word Generator
>
>Hi,
>
>I've written a Traveller alien word generator for Windows 3.1 and above. It can
>create Vilani, Aslan, Vargr, Droyne, and Zhodani words and save them to a file.
>I'm looking for a good place to upload this for Traveller players. I'm fairly
>novice at using the web and internet, so any help would be appreciated. Is
there
>anything special I need to know about uploading? Thanks in advance for any
help.
>				Jim Ujcik
>

I'd be very interested in getting a copy of this program.  Let me know where
you put it and what you name it.

Paul  {tiger}



- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 08:11:19 -0500
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: RE: New Mailing list
Message-ID: <199604091311.IAA27457@osh1.datasync.com>

While everyone is putting in their request for the new mailing list
divisions, I though I'd add my thoughts.

If, as it seem so far, many of the members of the two lists are going to
"upgrade" to T4, then I would suggest two lists.

        CT/MT/TNE - A combination of the two current lists.  Mainly this
list would be for those few who refuse to upgrade and use one of the three
old rules systems.  Also this list would be for mileau's not yet covered by T4.

        Traveller - This list would be for anything covered by the new system.

Another worthy idea is to split the list up among time periods, like Rob
suggested, but we don't want to end up with 4 different lists.  At least not
until T4 attracts the droves of new travellers.  :)


Paul  {tiger}


- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 96 01:26 NZST
From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 652
Message-ID: <m0u6dRE-0002lCC@mail.ramhb.co.nz>

Anyone know where I can get a copy of a BinHex 4.0 converter ? Someone wants to 
send me a Traveller program in this format, and I don't seem to have the ability 

------------------------------

From: Paul Harris <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 01:31:31 -0700
Subject: Re: Lasers and unarmoured victims

David Reed wrote:
snip
> BTW, has anyone else experienced confusion about the variable settings for chemical cartridge
> lasers?  I had a PC literally flame an entire NPC platoon with about half a magazine from a CLC rifle.

That sounds about right, one of my players did the same to a platoon of
novices with a about three rounds from a laser pistol. It worked so ell 
because the novices would take 1 point, and fall into a screaming heap to 
the ground (init drop to 0 after 1 hit, I've since changed that rule..)

> Of course, he was a little lucky with the autofire rolls, but...  I need to rethink the way it works.  The

Mine were not lucky, fairly average really.

> lethality was high because the targets were unarmored, and now the whole team wants to carry
> nothing else...  (This could go badly for the players when I insert armored foes...  *evil cackle*)
> snippety snip snip

I must say, if they were not lethal against unarmored opponents, what use 
would they be... and yes, give them a few combat armoured villians, that 
will soon bring them back to the good olg ACR.

Harry

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #2
********************************

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Traveller-digest            Friday, 10 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 003

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Text of the online conference with Marc Miller on AOL (3/6/96)
         2. Text of the online conference with Marc Miller (4/3/96)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Paragon369@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 02:55:50 -0400
Subject: Text of the online conference with Marc Miller on AOL (3/6/96)

Game Designers Forum Conference
Host: Frog God
Date: 03-06-96 - Wednesday 10pm ET 
Moderator: OGF Zeus

****************** Copyright 1996, America Online, Freely distributed**********************


Frog God:	Far Future is Marc's company that controls the rights...Imperium
has the paper rights...
OGF Zeus:	Greetings! :)
Frog God:	Again, for specifics, Ken should know...
Frog God:	Hi Zeus...
OGF Zeus:	Trying to upstage me Apollo? :)
OGF Apollo:	Hey Zeus...
OnlineHost:	ImperGame has entered the room.
OnlineHost:	Harrisonk has entered the room.
Frog God:	There he is...Hi Ken!
OGF Apollo:	Nah, just a Traveller fan...
OGF Zeus:	Hello ImperGame, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference!
Willem:	Ken, is that you just entering?
HDI Bryce:	Too many deities in here.
ImperGame:	Hello Fropg God
ImperGame:	Hello everyone
OGF Zeus:	Hello Harrisonk, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference!
ImperGame:	Hi William, yes it is
Frog God:	Everyone wants to straight scoop on Marc..any more info?
ImperGame:	sorry I am late
Frog God:	No problem...
ImperGame:	Hows everyone tonight?
ImperGame:	Sorry Marc cannot be here
ImperGame:	he send his regards to everyone
ImperGame:	and promises to set another date next month
ImperGame:	I'm here to talk about Traveller
Frog God:	Okay, so which OGF guy is the moderator...?  :D
ImperGame:	anyone got any questions?
OGF Zeus:	Need you ask Froggie? :)
Willem:	!
Allen024:	When is Traveller coming back?
OGF Apollo:	OGF Zeus is...:)
ImperGame:	AUGUST 1996!
ImperGame:	We are looking at a GEN CON release
BTRC:	Just in time to miss GenCon?
JonOz:	GenCon?!?!
Frog God:	Always...:D
ImperGame:	Hi Greg
OnlineHost:	Mk1 has entered the room.
ImperGame:	Hi everyone my name is Ken Whitman
OGF Zeus:	Hello Mk1, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference!
ImperGame:	president of Imperium Games
Allen024:	What will the new system be like?
OGF Apollo:	When was the election?
ImperGame:	We are going back to Clasic Traveller
ImperGame:	However with modifications
Willem:	YAY!!!!!
Harrisonk:	What is Imperium Games? The new publisher for Traveller?
JonOz:	!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Allen024:	all the way back, or revised and updated?
HCDawson:	good
YbrekP:	Excellent.
Frog God:	Calm down kids...let Ken answer the questions...
ImperGame:	Imperium Games is the new publishing house for traveler
JonOz:	So you're going to scrap TNE?
Mk1:	I may be in the minority, but i liked Travellar the New Era!!
OnlineHost:	WCook616 has entered the room.
OGF Zeus:	Hello WCook616, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference!
ImperGame:	We will revise and update Traveller
Allen024:	Hi Wayne!
ImperGame:	it is 20 years old yor knpw:)
WCook616:	Hi, Al.  Hi all.  Glad to have found everyone.
ImperGame:	Traveller the new era will not be forgoten
JonOz:	Wasn't TNE enough of a revise/update?
Allen024:	I enjoyed TNE too...mostly for the background, not the rules.
ImperGame:	when the time comes we will approach the virus agin
ImperGame:	it may take a few years though
JonOz:	Totally redoing the system now could cost customers
WCook616:	Anything done now could cost customers.
ImperGame:	The new Traveller will use the old system
JonOz:	The system in TNE was far superior to Trav Classic
Allen024:	I think returning to roots will GAIN customers in the long run.
HDI Bryce:	Will there be an experience system?
Mmohrfield:	which old system?
KFS1068:	Mr. Whitman, if I may ask, what is your company's mailing address?
ImperGame:	We understand that we cannot please everyone
Willem:	Might I suggest we let Ken have a chance to give us a quick briefing
before burying him with ???s.
JonOz:	Going back to original system is like going back to Commodre 64s
ImperGame:	Thanks Willem
ImperGame:	KFS get back with me latter for the address
YbrekP:	I secnd the briefing
OGF Zeus:	Ok, folks..  There are just far too many people here.. So protocol
mode we go...
OGF Zeus:	We are now in PROTOCOL mode.  Use ? for a question and ! for a
OGF Zeus:	comment. I'll let you know when you're up.
Willem:	?
OGF Zeus:	But first.. I'll let Ken do a little jig.
OGF Zeus:	:)
ImperGame:	Thanks
OGF Zeus:	Ken, the floor is yours.
ImperGame:	We are releasing the original Traveller
ImperGame:	We are adding to character generation
ImperGame:	adding skills
ImperGame:	and giving the look a new overhaul
ImperGame:	We have brought on Lester Smith as Traveller Developer
ImperGame:	and signed Larry Elmore to do most of the B&W interrior artwork
ImperGame:	Greg Poter from BTRC
ImperGame:	who is with us tonight
ImperGame:	is the developer of equipment and such
ImperGame:	Don Perrin from MagFrorce 7 is is developer of Spacecraft
ImperGame:	Tim Brown (from GDW way back) is in developer for Aliens
ImperGame:	Lester Smith will be covering the rest
ImperGame:	Jean Rabe is now editor of the Journal of the Traveller aid socity
OnlineHost:	Thorinn has entered the room.
ImperGame:	and sorry I cannot type faster
ImperGame:	or speel well
OGF Zeus:	Hello Thorinn, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference!
OGF Zeus:	We are now in PROTOCOL mode.  Use ? for a question and ! for a
OGF Zeus:	comment. I'll let you know when you're up.
Harrisonk:	?
HCDawson:	?
Allen024:	?
ImperGame:	Okay I am open for questions
YbrekP:	?
OGF Zeus:	Willem, you're up.
Willem:	Thanks, Zeus...first of all, let me congratulate you all...
ImperGame:	thanks
Willem:	Sounds like a hell of an all-star cast! Say Hi to Jean for me--old
home week!...Anyway...
Willem:	What do you see as the primary design points you are keeping, and the
primary ones you are ALTERING...
Willem:	from the original boxed set of Traveller?
ImperGame:	Of course we are taking out the serious mistakes
ImperGame:	like dying during character generation
ImperGame:	I look at the upgrade as a 80/20
ImperGame:	We will be adding more skills, personal backgrounds
ImperGame:	fleshing out the services
ImperGame:	and adding an educational and professional beckground
OnlineHost:	LeeGarv has entered the room.
ImperGame:	everything caan be roled or picked
OGF Zeus:	Hello LeeGarv, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference!
OGF Zeus:	We are now in PROTOCOL mode.  Use ? for a question and ! for a
OGF Zeus:	comment. I'll let you know when you're up.
LeeGarv:	Sorry I'm late. What goes on?
ImperGame:	this time you will have more contral over your character
ImperGame:	any clarification William?
Willem:	Just a bit...
JonOz:	?
WCook616:	!
HDI Bryce:	?
Willem:	You are keeping the basic dice, combat, and play systems, then?
ImperGame:	Yes
ImperGame:	There will be some modification
Willem:	O.K. Thanks. Better let some of these othjers in now! : )
OGF Zeus:	Harrison you're up, HCDawson is next.
ImperGame:	We are ading the Task system from MT
Harrisonk:	when will the first new issue of JTAS be out?  what format will it
be in?  will it pick up
ImperGame:	and streamling space combat
Harrisonk:	where Challenge left off (numbering wise)?
ImperGame:	JTAS is coming out in AUGUST 1996
ImperGame:	latter if you are interested you can e-mail me for submission
guidlines
ImperGame:	we are picking it up wher JTAS left off, not Challenge
OGF Zeus:	HCDawson has the floor, Allen024 is next.
HCDawson:	will you make it more practical to play games with beginning
characters? kinda skewed
HCDawson:	against them originally  (done)
ImperGame:	Background packages will alllow you to have skills even if your
character is a kid
ImperGame:	not much but better than nothing
HCDawson:	thanks
OGF Zeus:	Allen has the stage, YbrekP is next.
OnlineHost:	Feld Kuche has entered the room.
ImperGame:	Referees will have more power to ad rules, skills, etc. this time
OGF Zeus:	Hello Feld Kuche, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference!
OGF Zeus:	We are now in PROTOCOL mode.  Use ? for a question and ! for a
OGF Zeus:	comment. I'll let you know when you're up.
Allen024:	What kind of licensing will be done, such as was done with FASA in
the old days?
Feld Kuche:	Hello Zeus, Hello Loren
ImperGame:	Well...
ImperGame:	lets say a lot
Allen024:	Will other Traveller veterans such as Loren be involved? (done)
ImperGame:	however, Imperium and Marc have signed agreements that does not
let us talk much about it
ImperGame:	at least for thirty days
ImperGame:	you can be sure to see a CCG
ImperGame:	and a comic
ImperGame:	dont ask specifics..
ImperGame:	I not allow to tell at this time
OGF Zeus:	Ybrek, your question?  JonOz is next. :)
YbrekP:	Thank Zeus. My question was answered, I yield the stage.(done)
OGF Zeus:	JonOz.. :)
ImperGame:	However, I will be downloading all the Fanzines latter this week
OGF Zeus:	WCook616 is next.
ImperGame:	or at least adress
LeeGarv:	! No! not another ccg!  How will this be better than all the others?
ImperGame:	Glad you asked
JonOz:	Will you be doing any licensing for support of the TNE system/universe
OGF Zeus:	Lee, please use protocol.
ImperGame:	If it is not inventive we will not do one
Willem:	?
HPomer7330:	what does ogf stand for
ImperGame:	I cannot go into detail...once agin
OGF Zeus:	Online Gaming Forum HP.
JonOz:	?
Mk1:	?
OGF Zeus:	We are now in PROTOCOL mode.  Use ? for a question and ! for a
OGF Zeus:	comment. I'll let you know when you're up.
ImperGame:	but it can be played as a CCG or as a suppliment to space combat\
OGF Zeus:	WCook, your question.. :)
WCook616:	Concerning artists, Elmore is good with both B&W and color, but I'd
like to see
WCook616:	previous artists like Barr (with a light tone), Dietrick (clean
tech lines) and Keith (the
WCook616:	classic art) showing up again.
WCook616:	(done)
ImperGame:	It is GOOD work
ImperGame:	and you may see some of those artist in the future
ImperGame:	however, we are trying for a newer look
ImperGame:	I afraid if we put out the same stuff
Allen024:	?
ImperGame:	people will thank it is just the same stuff
OnlineHost:	Managarm has entered the room.
OGF Zeus:	Hello Managarm, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference!
OGF Zeus:	We are now in PROTOCOL mode.  Use ? for a question and ! for a
OGF Zeus:	comment. I'll let you know when you're up.
WCook616:	So long as people don't think Elmore makes it D&D.  (Thank you.)
OGF Zeus:	Don't bother answering questions out of protocol Ken. :)
OGF Zeus:	HDI Bryce is up, Willem is next. :)
ImperGame:	Most people do not know this about Elmore
HDI Bryce:	I was wondering about experience systems.
ImperGame:	but he served in the militarty  for 10 years
ImperGame:	His military stuff is AWSOMe
OnlineHost:	HCDawson has left the room.
ImperGame:	TSR never gave him a chance
HDI Bryce:	And if it was going to be possible to play competent (competitive)
PCs who are not ex military.
OnlineHost:	HCDawson has entered the room.
ImperGame:	please give him a chance
HDI Bryce:	(done)
OGF Zeus:	Willem is up, JonOz is next.
ImperGame:	if you dont like his stuff after you see the first few book
ImperGame:	you e-mail me with who you think can do better
ImperGame:	and we will try to accomadate you
ImperGame:	Hows that for an answer?
OnlineHost:	KFS1068 has left the room.
Frog God:	?
OGF Zeus:	Hello , Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference!
Willem:	<Waiting so Ken has a chance to catch his breath and speak to Bryce's
question...>
OGF Zeus:	Hello , Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference!
ImperGame:	go ahead William
OGF Zeus:	Sorry bout that..  pushed the wrong button. :)
OGF Zeus:	Willem now has the floor. :)
Willem:	<uh... I don't think Bryce's question got answered, did it?)
HDI Bryce:	(not really)
Willem:	He was ahead of me.
OGF Zeus:	Ken has the floor. :)
Willem:	Oh... ok....
ImperGame:	Whats your question again Bryce
HDI Bryce:	I was wondering about experience systems and whether civilians
were going to be competitive with
HDI Bryce:	Ex military charactgers.
ImperGame:	Yes they will
OnlineHost:	KFS1068 has entered the room.
YbrekP:	?
ImperGame:	however, dont exspect an 18 year old to have as good as skills as
a 40 year old
ImperGame:	They may have as many
ImperGame:	just not as good
OnlineHost:	HCDawson has left the room.
ImperGame:	unless you really focus on one skill area
Feld Kuche:	Are you keeping the house rules?
ImperGame:	Background skills & hobbie skills
ImperGame:	should add to character generation
ImperGame:	and even things ouyt
ImperGame:	out
OGF Zeus:	Feld K , I'm putting you on the queue after YbrekP.  Please wait.
OGF Zeus:	:)
HDI Bryce:	(thank you) ?
OnlineHost:	HCDawson has entered the room.
ImperGame:	your welcome
ImperGame:	next
Willem:	OK...Is there any chance that we are going to see the return of...
OGF Zeus:	Willem. Is up.
OGF Zeus:	JonOz is next.
Willem:	...the small booklet format, the distinctive black and red color
scheme...
ImperGame:	Sorry
ImperGame:	we are going with an 8.5 x 11
Willem:	...and similar graphic design decisions?
Mk1:	! Good Night folks and Only time will tell if the Old Imperium will live
again!!!  Go Virus!
OnlineHost:	Mk1 has left the room.
ImperGame:	with a graphic cover...
ImperGame:	kinda like White wolf, but not really!?!
OGF Apollo:	!
Willem:	Let me be the first to say...darn. I'll miss the black and red. I
still have my "Traveller dice"!
ImperGame:	great dice
Willem:	(So sue me. I'm retro.)
OGF Zeus:	JonOz is up, Allen024 is next.
JonOz:	All of the stuff you talk about adding already exists in TNE...why
change systems AGAIN?
ImperGame:	Thats okay
JonOz:	Now we'll all have to buy the new books...as bad as T$R. Instead of
going back
ImperGame:	I do want to take some time here to ad something if I could put
everyone on hold for a moment
JonOz:	Traveller should be going forward
ImperGame:	but first I will answer JonOz question
OGF Zeus:	Queue on hold. :)  Let me know when you want the queue back Ken. :)
ImperGame:	Jon, the New Era does not revertback to Marc Miller until August
ImperGame:	I know we can not please everyone
OGF Apollo:	?
ImperGame:	\but eventualy we will go back to the Virus Era
ImperGame:	but not right now
ImperGame:	we are not GDW
Allen024:	!
ImperGame:	If you have CT
ImperGame:	you do not have to buy any new books
ImperGame:	it is compatabile
ImperGame:	does that answer your question JonOz?
ImperGame:	Anyway
JonOz:	Not really...why should you go back to a first generation system when
an excellent
ImperGame:	there is one big change with the new Traveller
OnlineHost:	KFS1068 has left the room.
ImperGame:	which, by the way, will be called....
ImperGame:	Traveller
JonOz:	system is now in place...even if you don't like the Virus, the Ssytem
itself was far
Willem:	Gee...what a great, riginal name! :)
JonOz:	superior to the CT.  The task system and char generation is excellent
ImperGame:	I'm afraid that Marc Miller belies that the new ares is...
ImperGame:	well... crud.
ImperGame:	There are some REALLY great ideas
ImperGame:	and we WILL use them
ImperGame:	Marc wants to go back to the "old reliable"
ImperGame:	and we plan NOt to change it again
ImperGame:	maybe update and modify
ImperGame:	but the system eill stay the same
ImperGame:	I promise it will be for the best
ImperGame:	but once again we can not please everyone
ImperGame:	sorry JonOz
Willem:	?
ImperGame:	anyway
JonOz:	Not as sorry as we are
OGF Zeus:	Never can Ken. :)  Ready for the queue again?
ImperGame:	we are changing the setting for Traveller
ImperGame:	the new version will start out at year....
ImperGame:	Zero
ImperGame:	that's right
Harrisonk:	Imperial Year 0? Cool!
ImperGame:	at the begining of the Third Imperium
ImperGame:	Your charcters know wher the planits are
OnlineHost:	HCDawson has left the room.
ImperGame:	but not population, TL, or who they are
ImperGame:	1200 years since the last servey can take its toll on a universe
ImperGame:	and for those of you who think they can look it up...
ImperGame:	sorry!
ImperGame:	your GM will do that
ImperGame:	everyones gaming groups will be different
ImperGame:	Why?
Willem:	Yes!
ImperGame:	Because if you read up on Traveller History...
Willem:	(oops..sorry...enthusiasm overwhelmed me...)
ImperGame:	you will see that the first servey is not done untill year 300
ImperGame:	now any questions?
WCook616:	?
OGF Zeus:	Allen.
OGF Zeus:	FrogGod is next.
Allen024:	Will there be anything like Fire, Fusion and Steel (the best book
in the TNE line?) I like
ImperGame:	Dont worry everyone
Allen024:	the level of detail on ships it provided.
ImperGame:	I will stay on untill the last one of you leaves
OGF Zeus:	We are now in PROTOCOL mode.  Use ? for a question and ! for a
OnlineHost:	KFS1068 has entered the room.
OGF Zeus:	comment. I'll let you know when you're up.
OGF Zeus:	Hello KFS1068, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference!
OGF Zeus:	We are now in PROTOCOL mode.  Use ? for a question and ! for a
OGF Zeus:	comment. I'll let you know when you're up.
Frog God:	More a warning than a question...
Frog God:	With all those cooks in the stew, make sure that there is a
cohesive editor on the project...
Frog God:	Otherwise it will look like Shadowrun 1st Edition...:D
Allen024:	Excuse me, but my question wasn't answered.
ImperGame:	We have plans to do a FFS like suppliment
LeeGarv:	?
Allen024:	Thanks. (done)
ImperGame:	Actually, Greg Porter, who is on line will be handeling it
ImperGame:	Any input here Greg?
BTRC:	Well, I don't have a lot yet, since I'll be working heavily off the
existing background material,
Allen024:	If it's half as good as GUNS, GUNS, GUNS, it'll be excellent :)
ImperGame:	We have plans to release an equipment manual
BTRC:	but the coarser scale of Classic Traveller should make it an easier
task than say the level of detail
ImperGame:	this will happen in OCT
ImperGame:	and a wepions manual in JAN97
BTRC:	in GURPS Vehicles or FFS. I'll work with it as best I can and see what
percolates out.
OGF Zeus:	Frog God is up, or are you done? :)
ImperGame:	is you qustioned answered?
Frog God:	done
OGF Zeus:	YbrekP is up.
YbrekP:	Will starship combat be more abstract or more along the lines of
Batlerider or Brilliant Lan
YbrekP:	ces?
OnlineHost:	Mmohrfield has left the room.
HDI Bryce:	?
ImperGame:	Thats a hard one to answer?
ImperGame:	That question is one we are working on now
ImperGame:	I think it will start of simple
ImperGame:	and get more complex as time goes along
OnlineHost:	CaBil has entered the room.
ImperGame:	We do plan to release a board game(ship to ship) in AUGUST 97
YbrekP:	Thank you. (done)
ImperGame:	By the way
OGF Zeus:	Hello CaBil, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference!
OGF Zeus:	We are now in PROTOCOL mode.  Use ? for a question and ! for a
ImperGame:	we will release Traveller in AUG 96
OGF Zeus:	comment. I'll let you know when you're up.
CaBil:	Thanks....
OnlineHost:	CaBil has left the room.
ImperGame:	and two products a month until AUG 97
OnlineHost:	CaBil has entered the room.
OGF Zeus:	FeldK is up, HDI Bryce is next.
Feld Kuche:	Will the combat system be re-vamped?  The system now is probably
the best one out there....
ImperGame:	One product will be a suppliment about, ships, equipment, aliens,
etc
Feld Kuche:	Unlike Phoenix Command (too complex) or Recon! (too unrealistic).
ImperGame:	the other will be a full color map book (playing aid) or the TJAS
ImperGame:	It will be streamlined
OnlineHost:	YbrekP has left the room.
ImperGame:	and get more complex as time goes along
ImperGame:	or until costermes say Stop
Feld Kuche:	Any idea along which lines (faster/slower time)?
ImperGame:	It will take a year to get rules from simple to med
ImperGame:	and another to get them to complex
Feld Kuche:	Thank you (done).
ImperGame:	howevr if you have good houserules fell free to use them::done::
Allen024:	?
OGF Zeus:	HDI is up. :)
OGF Zeus:	Apollo is next with 2 questions. :)
ImperGame:	go for it
HDI Bryce:	Sorry. I was wondering if you had miniatures on line and if they
were going to be 15 or 25 mm?
ImperGame:	RAMFM still makes our minitures
ImperGame:	we are coordinating some new release when the new game somes out
ImperGame:	they are 25mm::done::
OGF Zeus:	Apollo, you are up. :)
OGF Apollo:	I enjoyed the Traveller novels that came out, any plans from
Imperium for novels?...
ImperGame:	Sure
OGF Apollo:	I understand the author is a big fan of Classic Traveller...
(done)
ImperGame:	I have gotten many volenteers
ImperGame:	and we are working on some big licenses
ImperGame:	Dont be surprised if you see one from Don Perrin & Margret Wise in
a year or two::done::
OGF Zeus:	Apollo, another question?
ImperGame:	Sorry
OGF Apollo:	nope thanks....
OnlineHost:	Feld Kuche has left the room.
OGF Zeus:	Allen024 is up.
ImperGame:	I do belive the last novel for TNE is comming out in AUG
Allen024:	I don't know if I can wait until August!
OnlineHost:	Sanja Fire has entered the room.
OGF Zeus:	Hiya Sanja! :)
Sanja Fire:	Hiya
OGF Zeus:	Is that it Allen? :)
Willem:	<Typing finger going, Zeus?>
Allen024:	Who's publishing Brunette's third novel?
ImperGame:	come on guys ask me some hard questions
OGF Zeus:	:)  That or my mind. :)
OGF Apollo:	Ask him yourself, he's KFS1068
ImperGame:	Oh that is a hard one
ImperGame:	Olivetree, once again
JonOz:	?
Harrisonk:	?
ImperGame:	however their contract is up after this one.::done::
OGF Zeus:	Willem is up, WCook is next.
Willem:	Thanks, Zeus...
Willem:	Since you are set on an Aug 96 release...
Willem:	with a tight schedulke thereafter...
Willem:	how much can you tell us about...
Willem:	exactly what the basic release will contain...
Willem:	and what the first few supplements willbe?
GDW GAMES:	?
ImperGame:	I will be glad to post the first 14 suppliments after thsi session
in the game design area
Willem:	First 14! Oy!
Willem:	Getting a little backed up early, aren't we? <grin>
ImperGame:	But March 15 is when we buckel down the hatches
ImperGame:	and get to work
ImperGame:	::done::
Willem:	Follow up, please?
ImperGame:	We do know the concepts though
Willem:	Are all those assigned to writers and actually in the queue?
ImperGame:	I can talk generalities all night long
Willem:	Or are some just titles planned for release.
ImperGame:	but untill Lester smith passes it to Marc Miller and myself, I
cannot talk exacts
OGF Zeus:	Can we leave the 14 supps till another conference Ken? :)
Willem:	I do want the list in the Traveller area in the GDF, though! : )
OnlineHost:	BTRC has left the room.
ImperGame:	Thanks Zeus, sounds like a plan
OGF Zeus:	WCook, you are up.
ImperGame:	I will post it before I get off line in the traveller area
OGF Zeus:	Hello WCook616, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference!
WCook616:	Any decisions on maneuver drive "physics", and are jump drive game
mechanics
WCook616:	going to be re-examined (like TL not shrinking them)?
OGF Zeus:	Arg.. :)  Crazy fingers again. :)
ImperGame:	you bet
ImperGame:	this is an ares that will be overhauled at least 60/40 if not more
ImperGame:	but it will be simple at first
ImperGame:	and get more complicated as time goes along
ImperGame:	any thing else WCook?
WCook616:	Thruster plates vs HEPLARs?
ImperGame:	details, detail, details...
WCook616:	Atmosphere details...
ImperGame:	Can we save this for a latter time Mr. WCOOK?
OGF Zeus:	Ken, do you think you could just upload the entire system and 14
supps to AOL? :)
ImperGame:	I would like to answer more company questions tonigh if possible
ImperGame:	Yes Zeus
WCook616:	Save as requested.  Noted for review in Traveller topic.  ::done::
OGF Zeus:	LeeGarv is up, HDI Bryce is next.
ImperGame:	Im not trying to blow you off
ImperGame:	but this could take hours
LeeGarv:	Will there be any supplements detailing human societies that were
separated
ImperGame:	::done::
ImperGame:	I will e-mail you with an answer at a latter time
LeeGarv:	from the imperium and slipped into barbarism?  Those kind of stories
always intrigued me.
ImperGame:	We are taking the Imperium back to year 0
ImperGame:	this should make adventering fun and
ImperGame:	alow you to have a lot of unexpected encounters
LeeGarv:	No primitives   :(
ImperGame:	We will detail socities and NEW aliens in NOV
ImperGame:	there will be primitives to concur
ImperGame:	i promise::done::
OGF Zeus:	HDI Bryce is up, Allen024 is next.
HDI Bryce:	Any thoughts about publishing on a CD rom?
LeeGarv:	Yay! ::done::
ImperGame:	We are going to
GDW GAMES:	?
ImperGame:	Howevr, I cannot go into specifics right now
OnlineHost:	LeeGarv has left the room.
KFS1068:	?
HDI Bryce:	Ackpht.
ImperGame:	I do know that the digest group has accired Seeker and old FASA
ImperGame:	material and is planing on releasing all that info on CD
ImperGame:	Look for CD products late in 97""dome::
HDI Bryce:	I hope it's cross-indexed.  ::done::
OGF Zeus:	Allen024 is up.
ImperGame:	I think that will be a requirment::done::
Allen024:	Will Planet III be doing software for the "new" game?
OGF Zeus:	Jon Oz is next, then HarrisonK.
ImperGame:	Yes, but I do not know specifics at this time::done::
JonOz:	What about PlanetIII's release of the Regency Starship Guide due in
Aug.?or FFS software?
ImperGame:	nest
ImperGame:	Well...
Allen024:	Will there be a Character Creation program> ::done::
ImperGame:	It will be compatable to older books
ImperGame:	however, I am sure they will update quickly
JonOz:	Which question did you just naswer?
ImperGame:	::done::
ImperGame:	yours Jon
ImperGame:	Yes Allen
OnlineHost:	JonOz has left the room.
ImperGame:	but once agin late in 97::done::
OGF Zeus:	HarrisonK is up, then GDW with 2 questions.
Harrisonk:	when will y'all get back to the Rebellion and Virus campaigns?
Harrisonk:	will the older (and TNE) material be re-published?
ImperGame:	looks like about 3 years, however, maybe sooner ...
Harrisonk:	any chances of a Rule of Man or First Contact (for Terra) campagin
setting? ga
ImperGame:	because of a few licences we are working on at this time
ImperGame:	Yes Harrisonk
OGF Zeus:	I'd really appreciate one question asked of the host at a time if
possible. :)
ImperGame:	we will be making about 10 different setting in the next five
years
ImperGame:	you can play what ever time line you choose
ImperGame:	we are just starting with year 0
ImperGame:	I belive that in MAY or June
Allen024:	?
ImperGame:	we will be releasing Aslan Border Wars
ImperGame:	and the seytting will jump to year 200
ImperGame:	however we will support all time lines
ImperGame:	::done::
OGF Zeus:	GDW is up.
GDW GAMES:	Is it true that Jennifer Anniston has declined a role in the first
movie?
GDW GAMES:	Sorry...couldn't resist
ImperGame:	AAAAHHHHH...
GDW GAMES:	Actually, my questions have been answered
ImperGame:	cool
OGF Zeus:	Ok, KFS1068 is up. :)
ImperGame:	what about your second one?
GDW GAMES:	so I'll just comment that I'm glad you'll be going with RAFM and
KFS1068:	Do you have plans to re-release old boardgames like Imperium or add
new ones?
GDW GAMES:	25mm scale
GDW GAMES:	GA
ImperGame:	me to GDW::done::
ImperGame:	We are making a new one that will release in AUG 97
ImperGame:	howevr GDW was great at making GOOD games
ImperGame:	so dont be surprised if you see some elements of the old ones
ImperGame:	::done::
OGF Zeus:	Allen is up.
ImperGame:	hay allen, whats up?
Allen024:	Any chance that Steve jackson Games may produce material?
ImperGame:	yes
ImperGame:	but that is all I can say right no
ImperGame:	sorry no specifics::done::
Allen024:	Good enough! ::done::
OnlineHost:	Sanja Fire has left the room.
OnlineHost:	Willem has left the room.
OGF Zeus:	That's the queue..  :)  Ken?
Harrisonk:	?
WCook616:	?
Allen024:	?
OGF Zeus:	Harrison is up.
ImperGame:	We are going to call  it quits in a few more minutes guys
Harrisonk:	what classes/professions are going to be included in the basic
rules?
OnlineHost:	GDW GAMES has left the room.
ImperGame:	all the old one in CT
Harrisonk:	and will the basic rules be basic (i.e. will the Year 0 setting be
a seperate book)?
ImperGame:	plus we are adding a professional category and an education
category
Harrisonk:	including the ones from Citizens of the Imperium?
ImperGame:	each will be detyailed with 3+ sub categories
OGF Zeus:	!
ImperGame:	Yes Year 0 is another book
ImperGame:	Yes to the Citizens
OGF Zeus:	WCook is up. :)
WCook616:	Any plans for media releases (movies or TV as opposed to comics)?
WCook616:	No specifics, please.  ::done::
ImperGame:	Good guessing WCOOK:D
ImperGame:	one more question
OGF Zeus:	Allen you have the last question and I have a comment.
Allen024:	Do you need playtesters? We have a great group that loves
Traveller, and I have experience!
ImperGame:	Sure Allen
ImperGame:	send me some e-mail and remind me
ImperGame:	and I will send stuff out to you
ImperGame:	as well as the rest of you:)
ImperGame:	::Done::
OGF Zeus:	Looks like with this crowd, Traveller has a great chance in August
96! :)
OGF Zeus:	:done: :)
ImperGame:	Thanks
Frog God:	What a great Session!  Thanks for coming everyone!
ImperGame:	Guys I am going to post Traveller stuff
Frog God:	Thanks for coming, Ken!
OGF Zeus:	Thanks!  The session is officially over, but you can still stay and
chat all you like! :)
WCook616:	Delighted to attend, more so to hear from ImperGame!
Frog God:	Next month we'll get Marc here for real, and have even *more* fun!
OGF Zeus:	I appreciate everyones discipline! :)
ImperGame:	I will come back here in 15 if anyone wants to continue chating
OnlineHost:	Thorinn has left the room.
ImperGame:	howevr 11:30 (Central is my bed time)
OnlineHost:	HDI Bryce has left the room.
WCook616:	Did anyone log this session?
OGF Apollo:	yes....
Frog God:	Really Ken, thanks for pitching in!
OGF Zeus:	Log off at 11:47 eastern. :)
OGF Zeus:	Thanks Ken! :)
ImperGame:	Thank FROG GOD
ImperGame:	this was fun
ImperGame:	Thanks Zeus
Frog God:	I thought so, to...


------------------------------

From: Paragon369@aol.com
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 02:58:26 -0400
Subject: Text of the online conference with Marc Miller (4/3/96)

Game Design Forum Conference
Host:  Frog God
Date: 4/3/96 10:05:32 EST
Moderator: OGF Zeus

****************** Copyright 1996, America Online, Freely distributed
**********************

Frog God   : Our guest tonite is Marc Miller, creator of 
             Traveller.
FarFuture  : How do we start this thing?
Frog God   : First, why don't you tell us about the current status 
             of the game, and an overview of your plans.
Frog God   : Then we can move to specific questions and the 
             overall chaos that generally ensues.  :D
FarFuture  : First, we all know (and regret) that GDW has 
             determined that it has to close its doors.
FarFuture  : As a result of various agreements and conventions 
             which GDW worked under,
Frog God   : We *will* be using protocol this evening, so please 
             don't just jump in.  Enter "?" if you have a
Frog God   : question.
FarFuture  : the actual rights (including copyrights and 
             trademarks) to Traveller
FarFuture  : have formally reverted to me.
Frog God   : You will then be called in order (sorry Marc...:D)
FarFuture  : In addition, those rights which belonged to other 
             (like
FarFuture  : Frank Chadwick and Loren Wiseman) have, through very 
             reasoned agreements,
FarFuture  : also come under my control.
FarFuture  : So all of Traveller is now in my hands (ie under the 
             holding company I call
Harrisonk  : ?
FarFuture  : Far Future Enterprises.
FarFuture  : In addition
Frog God:	(Go ahead, Marc)
FarFuture:	I am now trying to set up a publisher who will be the publisher of
record for Traveller
FarFuture:	That would be Imperium Games, with its team of Ken Whitman, Don
Perrin, Greg Porter,
FarFuture:	Jean Rabe, Tim Brown, and Lester Smith.
FarFuture:	On top of that, I think it is important (and I use a buzz word
here) that there be a
FarFuture:	"vision" for where Traveller is going and what it will be over the
long haul. That falls
FarFuture:	on me, and that is what we're all working on.
OnlineHost:	Sajin has entered the room.
FarFuture:	Where! I'm long winded here.
OGF Zeus:	Hello Sajin, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference! This
is
OGF Zeus:	our second conference with Marc Miller talking about Traveller.
Sajin:	Good evening evryone
FarFuture:	I always like to respond to questions because it tells at least
one person what he or she
OGF Zeus:	We are now in PROTOCOL mode.  Use ? for a question and ! for a
OGF Zeus:	comment. I'll let you know when you're up.  Please type :done: when
OGF Zeus:	you are done typing your question or answer. Thanks! :)
OGF Zeus:	HarrisonK is up. :)
FarFuture:	wants to hear. So lets start with questions, and I'll see if I
have any answers.
OnlineHost:	Sajin has left the room.
OnlineHost:	MWall1964 has entered the room.
FarFuture:	I do not control 2300 AD. That property has been sold (by all
individuals involved) to
FarFuture:	Tantalus, Inc. of Key West Florida. However, I act as agent for
them, so inquiries about it
FarFuture:	are still directed to me.
OnlineHost:	Paragon369 has entered the room.
OGF Zeus:	Hello Paragon369, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference!
This is
OGF Zeus:	our second conference with Marc Miller talking about Traveller.
Paragon369:	MADE IT!!  Hi folks.... ;)
OGF Zeus:	We are now in PROTOCOL mode.  Use ? for a question and ! for a
OGF Zeus:	comment. I'll let you know when you're up.  Please type :done: when
OGF Zeus:	you are done typing your question or answer. Thanks! :)
Harrisonk:	:done:
OnlineHost:	YbrekP has entered the room.
OnlineHost:	CaBil has entered the room.
OGF Zeus:	We are now in PROTOCOL mode.  Use ? for a question and ! for a
OGF Zeus:	comment. I'll let you know when you're up.  Please type :done: when
OGF Zeus:	you are done typing your question or answer. Thanks! :)
PontifiC8:	?
FarFuture:	:done:
OGF Zeus:	Hello CaBil, YbrekP, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum
Conference! This is
OGF Zeus:	our second conference with Marc Miller talking about Traveller.
Frog God:	pontific8 is up...:D
OGF Zeus:	PontifiC8, you are up. :)
PontifiC8:	(Oh wow the power;)) In a like mode ,who controls T2K as of now ?
:done:
Harrisonk:	?
Frog God:	?
OnlineHost:	ImperGame has entered the room.
FarFuture:	Ditto for T2K. It's in the hands of Tantalus. Address queries to
me at FarFuture@aol,com
FarFuture:	:done:
OGF Zeus:	Harrisonk, is up, Frog God is next.
Paragon369:	?
OnlineHost:	YbrekP has left the room.
Harrisonk:	are licenses for 3rd party Traveller products (like the old FASA &
Paranoia Press stuff)
Harrisonk:	going to be available again and if so from who (Far Future or
Imperium Games)? :done:
FarFuture:	The licenses for FASA, DGP, Seeker, and Paranoia (among others)
have expired.
FarFuture:	Nevertheless, some (f not most) of that material has great merit.
DGP, FASA, and (I believe)
PontifiC8:	!
Harrisonk:	Yes, but are you going to be granting new licenses to interested
parties?
FarFuture:	Seeker, are in the hands of Roger Sanger in Seattle. He and I are
working on
FarFuture:	a renewal of those licenses to allow
FarFuture:	1) republishing the material that already exists,
FarFuture:	2) an archival publication of all of that material on CD-ROM,
FarFuture:	3) new stuff from the writers of the old stuff. :done:
Mmohrfield:	?
OGF Zeus:	Da Froginator is up. :) Pontific8 is in the batter's box
Frog God:	Much ballyhoo has been made in recent days by TNE players who feel
betrayed/abandoned/annoyed.
FarFuture:	And we (ie. Imperium Games) are working on new licenses as well.
Frog God:	Any comment on their dilemma?
Frog God:	(i.e. are you planning virus related material?)
FarFuture:	Yes. The conventional wisdom of what some call Traveller 4
FarFuture:	is that we should move 50 years into the future in order to get
past the ravages of the
FarFuture:	virus. Instead, at least partially to address the concerns of the
TNE people,
FarFuture:	we are moving to doing Milieux, different eras, which will allow
FarFuture:	playing Traveller in many different eras within the Traveller
universe.
FarFuture:	In addition, the recent suggestion of a TNE wrap-up book reflects
the sort of thing we want
FarFuture:	to do with the Milieu Books: address what people want to see about
specific eras. "done:
OGF Zeus:	Pontific8 is up.
PontifiC8:	My comment is obsolete:(
OGF Zeus:	Mm is up. :)
Frog God:	(sorry...:D)
FarFuture:	Great. Than I am answering the questions you want to have
answered.
Paragon369:	?
Mmohrfield:	Will the new edition of traveller contain alternate technologies
rules such as stutterwarps and subspa
FarFuture:	The new addition "will reflect Classic Traveller in light of 20
years of role-playing
Mmohrfield:	subspace radio, so that trhose of us who want to can run
non-imnperium campaigns?:done:
FarFuture:	experience." I don't expect to provide stutterwarp or any such
items initially. Traveller
FarFuture:	has a few basic assumptions which shape its universe: grav plates,
jump drive, cold
FarFuture:	fusion, no FTL communication except by ship. I won't close out the
possibility of
SDraper999:	?
Paragon369:	? ? ?
FarFuture:	alternative technologies to be discovered and experiemented with,
but otherwise, no. :done:
OGF Zeus:	Paragon369 is up. :)
Paragon369:	Thanks.. first, are you going to put out a supliment dealing with
'alternate' technologies?
Paragon369:	This could include stutterwarps, warp drives, worm holes, star
gates, etc.
Paragon369:	Since we've all used them from time to time....
Paragon369:	Second.... when is the JTAS due out?  Is it going to wait till
the game is produced?
Paragon369:	Third.... is Far Future going to have a posting area on AOL...
and a home page????? <g>
Paragon369:	:done: Thanks....
FarFuture:	First: I think any good background for Traveller has to stick with
the basic assumptions.
FarFuture:	So the basic game system will not incorporate such non-standard
items. On the other hand, I
FarFuture:	expect to incorporate an academic/ researcher/ university type
character into the system
FarFuture:	this go round, and he/she/it will need scientific puzzles to meet
and deal with. Under those
FarFuture:	circumstances, I think Traveller needs to allow characters to meet
and deal
FarFuture:	with such "aternatives", provided they don't disrupt the fabric of
the game.
PontifiC8:	! (This time for sure)
FarFuture:	Second. JTAS is due out in August. I envision it as the vehicle
through which we
FarFuture:	a) publish many adventures,
KFS1068:	?
FarFuture:	b) make it possible to get glimpses of miliuex before their
documentation is out,
FarFuture:	and c) make it possible to refine the art of adventure writing and
story telling within the
FarFuture:	Traveller game system (ie. I think this go round, Traveller has to
emphasize PLAYING the
FarFuture:	game.).
FarFuture:	Third, Yes, we'll have several home pages (one for Imperium Games,
one by Far Future, and
FarFuture:	hot links). :done:
OGF Zeus:	:::If we can ask one question or make one comment at a time, I'd
appreciate it. ::: :)
OGF Zeus:	SDraper999 is up. :)
SDraper999:	Are there any plans to give robots a bigger role in this
incarnation, perhaps
SDraper999:	even in the basic rules?  :done:
FarFuture:	I envision Traveller as a cosmopolitan universe with many
different inhabitants of different
FarFuture:	races, ethnic backgrounds, and even structures (ie robotics). That
is not to say, they get a
FarFuture:	along all the time, because they don't. But the game system should
always have many
OnlineHost:	Mmohrfield has left the room.
Paragon369:	?
FarFuture:	different "types" in it. One of those types is robots. But the
robot that thinks and acts at
FarFuture:	artificial intelligence levels is rare and of a player character
type rather than ubiquitous
FarFuture:	and NPC. Just having many different robots of different
configurations for its own sake is
OnlineHost:	Mmohrfield has entered the room.
FarFuture:	not conducive to good game PLAY. Instead, I see unintelligent
robots as no more than
FarFuture:	different model cars; smart robots are rare and need to have true
goals which will help good
FarFuture:	role playing action. :done:
OGF Zeus:	Pontific8 is up. :)
PontifiC8:	But, some folks I know use the Traveller system w/o the backgrnd
or The Basic Assumptions because the
PontifiC8:	game mechanics regardless of
PontifiC8:	of version have always been flexible and
PontifiC8:	of version have always been flexible and
PontifiC8:	powerful. :done:
FarFuture:	All of the SF writers we know base their writings in some way on
the world we know today;
FarFuture:	then they extrapolate and refine that into their own SF universes.
RPG referees who create t
OGF Zeus:	!
FarFuture:	their own universes (based on, but expanding upon) the Traveller
universe are acting on one
FarFuture:	goal that the game system has: to lay a foundation. And I support
that 100%. But Traveller
FarFuture:	cannot be all things to all people. The path that GDW took
Traveller reflected the interests
FarFuture:	of those at GDW: gritty, military futures. Now that I am in
control of where it goes, I
FarFuture:	fully intend to take the system down a path that is satisfying to
me, because I think I have
FarFuture:	a track record of meeting the interests and needs of a large
portion of the SF RPG players
FarFuture:	and refs out there. Which brings us to this "vision" thing. Right
now, there are
FarFuture:	two SF universes of any major importance: Star Trek and Star Wars.
Both have their
FarFuture:	followings, and both have their defining characteristics.
Traveller has its own defining
FarFuture:	characteristics, which, if properly presented, can make Traveller
the third major SF system.
FarFuture:	That's what I want to work toward. :done:
OGF Zeus:	KFS is up. :)
KFS1068:	Mr. Miller, will character UPP's remain as in CT, or perhaps
incoporate charisma, like TNE?
KFS1068:	:done:
OnlineHost:	Mmohrfield has left the room.
OnlineHost:	Allen024 has entered the room.
FarFuture:	I see a return to the essential 6 characteristics. Beyond that, we
are in specific
OGF Zeus:	Hello Allen024, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference!
This is
OGF Zeus:	our second conference with Marc Miller talking about Traveller.
FarFuture:	discussion as to details. :done:
OGF Zeus:	We are now in PROTOCOL mode.  Use ? for a question and ! for a
OGF Zeus:	comment. I'll let you know when you're up.  Please type :done: when
OGF Zeus:	you are done typing your question or answer. Thanks! :)
OGF Zeus:	Paragon is up. :)
Allen024:	?
Paragon369:	As for computer programs supporting Traveller.  Who's handling
them? What's the deal? :done:
FarFuture:	Planet III has a player aid system based on the Windows help
system, and their new SpaceDock
FarFuture:	creates ships quite nicely. Beyond that, I am talking to
WinterTree about Tablemaster for
FarFuture:	Traveller. And Tantalus has an on-line license thay are working
on. But
FarFuture:	what you really want to know is if there will be a PC or Mac game
out there (and we're
FarFuture:	working on it). We're also trying to get a CD-ROM deal set up to
archive all of the
FarFuture:	Traveller text to date (TNE, Mega, CT, etc) onto one or more
CD-ROMs. Nothing is finalized
FarFuture:	yet on anything, but we want to do more than one computer game
system. :done:
OGF Zeus:	I'm up. :)
OGF Zeus:	Basically, I just wanted to say that Marc has a specific vision for
Traveller, and that even
OGF Zeus:	if no "official" supplement for any one aspect that you are looking
for exists (or will
OGF Zeus:	exist), Marc won't stop creative people who like the system from
coming up with their own
OGF Zeus:	ideas. :)  Am I right Marc? :)
OGF Zeus:	:done:
FarFuture:	Well said. And
Paragon369:	!
FarFuture:	If I had my way, I would do exactly what every single one of you
wanted. But since
OnlineHost:	ClayRBush has entered the room.
OGF Zeus:	Hello ClayRBush, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference!
This is
OGF Zeus:	our second conference with Marc Miller talking about Traveller.
ClayRBush:	Is this the Marc Miller conference?
OGF Zeus:	We are now in PROTOCOL mode.  Use ? for a question and ! for a
FarFuture:	I can't, I have come to the conclusion that I'll do what I want to
see, and hope you all
OGF Zeus:	comment. I'll let you know when you're up.  Please type :done: when
OGF Zeus:	you are done typing your question or answer. Thanks! :)
FarFuture:	like it. :done:
OGF Zeus:	Allen024 is up. :)
Allen024:	Just got here, and this may have been asked but
Allen024:	can we ask questions about the technology of the setting? Just one?
ClayRBush:	!What is the current topic? I just got here.
FarFuture:	OK Allen. Ask away.
Allen024:	Will you be using fuel-using M-Drives or reactionless ala CT? (Just
curious) :done:
OGF Zeus:	ClayRBush <---Traveller. :)
FarFuture:	We are moving back to the concepts of CT. They may be refined a
bit, but we are stepping
OnlineHost:	PontifiC8 has left the room.
FarFuture:	back to the game systems of CT. :done:
Allen024:	Thanks!
OGF Zeus:	Paragon369 is up. :)
SDraper999:	?
OGF Zeus:	Paragon?
OGF Zeus:	SDraper is up. :)  Paragon can follow.
OnlineHost:	RONIMILLS has entered the room.
SDraper999:	Will personal combat also be stepping back to a CT inspired
system? :done:
OGF Zeus:	Hello RONIMILLS, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference!
This is
OGF Zeus:	our second conference with Marc Miller talking about Traveller.
OGF Zeus:	We are now in PROTOCOL mode.  Use ? for a question and ! for a
OGF Zeus:	comment. I'll let you know when you're up.  Please type :done: when
OGF Zeus:	you are done typing your question or answer. Thanks! :)
FarFuture:	Personal combat will step back to a CT inspired system. We're
bringing in Lester Smith and
Paragon369:	Sorry.... getting water... <g>
OnlineHost:	RONIMILLS has left the room.
FarFuture:	Greg Porter to work on the details. Greg has suggested a hit
location chart (which I like)
Allen024:	?
FarFuture:	and making damage dependent specifically based on ammunition. I
want to expend
Paragon369:	Just a quick note of appreciation to Marc.  Traveller is by far
the best Sci-Fi gaming
FarFuture:	the weapons (including more alternative weapons) and a gun
FarFuture:	design system based on Greg Porter's Guns Guns Guns system. :done:
Paragon369:	system in existence... and we've all enjoyed it to date.  We all
have faith that the newest
Paragon369:	incarnation of the game will be at least as good.... but, are you
open to input from the
Paragon369:	gamers out here?  :done:
FarFuture:	Thank you for the kind words and flattery. I appreciate the
support. We are
FarFuture:	always open to constructive criticism, and I specifically take it
when it
ClayRBush:	? Will the new rules include an updated Striker miniatures system?
Including necessary
FarFuture:	is constructive. Trillion Credit Squadron was originally a
suggestion from a gamer;
ClayRBush:	? vehicle and weapon stats?
FarFuture:	so was the Pocket Empires idea that we want to incorporate into
T4. :done:
ClayRBush:	! Sorry about that.
OGF Zeus:	Hold Clay's question a moment Marc.
OGF Zeus:	Allen is up.
OGF Zeus:	:)  No problem Clay. :)  I'll let you know when you can ask your
question. :)
Allen024:	Have you made any decisions about revisions to the character
creation process?
Allen024:	Points, rolled, templates, or all three? :done:
FarFuture:	I think that the plethora of possible character types in TNE
dissipated energies and made
FarFuture:	process somewhat unfocused. I want to bring us back to a few basic
character types (the
OnlineHost:	Thee Anne has entered the room.
FarFuture:	ones we all know and love, plus the academic/researcher I
mentioned before. I see the
OnlineHost:	Thee Anne has left the room.
FarFuture:	preferred structure being rolled. But I have also said I want to
revised based on 20 years
FarFuture:	of role-playing experience, and that means we need to recognize
the advances that have
FarFuture:	been made: like templates, or points. And I want the system to
include provision for
FarFuture:	those alternatives as well. I don't think that is being
wishy-washy; it is recognizing the
FarFuture:	potential in each of the three choices. :done:
Allen024:	!
OGF Zeus:	Clay is up. :)
ClayRBush:	? Will the new rules include a Striker miniatures system, with any
common vehicle or weapon
ClayRBush:	? stats for Striker? :done:
FarFuture:	Two of the strengths of Traveller are the detailed rules that
allow playing at
FarFuture:	any tech level or environment, and the design systems for any type
of vehicle or
KFS1068:	?
FarFuture:	equipment. I want to include a Striker-like system to do that. But
at the same time, I don't
FarFuture:	want the design system toi be an excuse for not including
pre-designed vehicles
FarFuture:	equipemnt, guns, etc. that one can expect to find as Imperial
issue. Dedicated
FarFuture:	refs can probably design better if they want to do so. :done:
OGF Zeus:	Allen is up. :)
ClayRBush:	?
Allen024:	I agree that TNE had too many careers, but I thought MT's list was
about right.
Allen024:	Still, there's always Citizens of the Imperium II!
Allen024:	:done:
FarFuture:	Aha! That's called constructive criticism. I envision the game
system for T4 including
FarFuture:	two levels of detail: one for quick resolution, and another with
greater detail. Both get
FarFuture:	the same ultimate result, but one is faster; the other more
detailed. :done:
OGF Zeus:	KFS is up. :)
KFS1068:	Unlike TNE, do you plan on having a single system for all space
combat, small and large?
KFS1068:	:done:
FarFuture:	I think there are distinct differences between "Adventurer Class"
ships in combat and
FarFuture:	large scale Naval Operations. I want to have a system wherein this
ship fights that ship and
FarFuture:	someone is a winner and someone a loser. I want another system
where my fleet or squadron
FarFuture:	encounters your fleet or squadron and we fight out a classic naval
encounter. :done:
OGF Zeus:	Clay is up. :)
ClayRBush:	? On naval combat: Will the new rules be specific about how
squadrons jump? The standard
ClayRBush:	?rules said that jump time was indeterminate, but Joe Fugate had
said that high levels of
OnlineHost:	Allen024 has left the room.
ClayRBush:	? Navigation would permit a fleet navigator to choose destination
_and_ destination time.
ClayRBush:	? Which made Navigation a great skill for Traders. :-( I favor
having jump duration or
ClayRBush:	? destiunation being predictable, with the other then being
random. It permits admirals to
ClayRBush:	?maneuver without worrying about some ships arriving 36 hours
before others do. :done:
FarFuture:	I say jump takes 168 hours plus or minus 10%. I think skill and
equipment can narrow the
OnlineHost:	Allen024 has entered the room.
FarFuture:	time to 5% or even 3% tolerance, and then luck can influence the
exact duration. I think the
FarFuture:	same applies to destination. But I want to avoid deciding that one
or the other can be
FarFuture:	pinpointed just to make it easier for the players to get what they
want. I'll think about it
FarFuture:	:done:
OGF Zeus:	Queue is empty.
ClayRBush:	? But if ships jump with the same jump plot, they make just one
roll for jump duration?
OGF Zeus:	Ok, Clay, you are up. :)
Allen024:	?
FarFuture:	Clay: I'll think about it. Probably they each make a rule, with
modifications for each ship
FarFuture:	to make it probably the same duration. :done:
KFS1068:	?
OGF Zeus:	Allen is up.
ClayRBush:	?
Allen024:	How soon do you think we'll see Alien Modules or their modern
counterparts?
Allen024:	And will you be using the "silly" Ithklur or going to a more
serious version? :done:
FarFuture:	Each Milieu book will concentrate on important information about
that era. Milieu 0 will
Frog God:	?
FarFuture:	spend much of its text detailing the Early Imperium. Milieu 200
(or so) will deal with the
FarFuture:	Aslan Border Wars, and so spend much of its text detailing Aslan.
In addition, Tim
FarFuture:	Brown is working on the book on Aliens, which will
FarFuture:	1) detail specific alien races from within the territory we cover,
suitable for role-play or
FarFuture:	for NPC encounters, or for academic research, and
FarFuture:	2) provide for a system of alien race generation. :done:
OGF Zeus:	KFS is up.
KFS1068:	How about psionics? Will specific tasks still drain power like in
Classic Traveller?
KFS1068:	:done:
FarFuture:	I see a Milieu 750 The Psionic Suppressions, which will
nevertheless provide information
FarFuture:	about Psionics within the game system. As to specifics, IDKY.
FarFuture:	I don';t Know Yet. :done:
OGF Zeus:	Clay is up.
ClayRBush:	? Are you planning changes to system generation so that more
populated worlds are
ClayRBush:	? around G or K stars, and iceballs and uninhabitable worlds
generally around
ClayRBush:	? cold M stars rather than (wasted) G or k stars? :done:
OnlineHost:	Allen024 has left the room.
FarFuture:	I invite constructive criticism so that the game rules are as
realistic as possible while
Paragon369:	!
FarFuture:	allowing as great a diversity as possible, and keeping them as
simple as possible. "done.
OGF Zeus:	Frog God is up. :)
Frog God:	Unrelated question (but you seem to know this stuff)...any word on
the rights to Space: 1889?
OnlineHost:	Allen024 has entered the room.
FarFuture:	Frank Chadwick owns the rights to Space: 1889. The rights and
benefits of the movie option
Frog God:	:done:
OGF Zeus:	Paragon is up. :)
FarFuture:	that is out there for the property also pass to him.
FarFuture:	done.
Frog God:	Anyone licens eit yet?
Frog God:	(sorry) done
FarFuture:	Like?
Paragon369:	One question..... IS THERE GOING TO BE A TRAVELLER MOVIE???
   PLEASE SAY **YES!**
Paragon369:	:done:
FarFuture:	I want to see a Traveller Movie, and a TV series, and a series of
novels. I think that the
FarFuture:	Traveller universe is ideally suited for all of these things. But
I'm not going to just sign
FarFuture:	on for one in order to get it (take for example tne Vampire TV
series opener I saw
FarFuture:	this evening). Instead, I want to see a story that does justice to
the game and the
FarFuture:	universe, and that reflects the values that I want Traveller to
have. So I'll bide my time
Paragon369:	!Put the word out for a good script... there are writers out here
that'd LOVE to do it!!!!
SDraper999:	?
FarFuture:	until there is an appropriate situation presenting itself. And I
want to write the script. :
OGF Zeus:	!
FarFuture:	:done:
OGF Zeus:	SDraper is up.
SDraper999:	Which of the 4 existing starship design methods (Book 2, High Gd,
MT, TNE) can we
SDraper999:	expect the new system to most closely resemble? :done:
Paragon369:	?
FarFuture:	B2 and HG, revised and enhanced in light of 20 years of
role-playing design experience. :don
FarFuture:	e:
OGF Zeus:	I'm up. :)
FarFuture:	undone:
OGF Zeus:	Whatever you do Marc, don't write a script that resembles
Highlander 2. :)
Allen024:	?
FarFuture:	And I want to see a book of predesigned starship compartments that
you can photoxcopy and
FarFuture:	paste onto a deck plan sheet so you'll know whats in the ships you
designed. now :done:
FarFuture:	OK. Not like Highlander 2. (Is that constructive criticism?)
:sdone:
ImperGame:	What, Highland 2? Was there a Highlander 2? - D
OGF Zeus:	Paragon is up. :)
Paragon369:	Is  FarFuture@aol.com the 'mail drop' for ALL of the folks
working on the new project?
Harrisonk:	!
Paragon369:	I'm working on a ship program that designes the ships graphiclly.
 You install pods and it
FarFuture:	No. Use ImperGame@aol.com and ask him. :done:
Paragon369:	calculates the specifics from there....
Paragon369:	:done:
OGF Zeus:	ImperGame, you are right, there was no second movie. :)
OGF Zeus:	Allen is up. :)
Allen024:	When will playtesting start? (I volunteered last time :)) ;done:
Paragon369:	[CLAP] That right OGF Zeus!
FarFuture:	Ask ImperGame (email him your offer). :done:
OGF Zeus:	HarrisonK is up. :)
Harrisonk:	a set of photocopyable standardized ship deckplan templates would
be nice, but
Harrisonk:	I'm much rather see a computer aid program that allows you design
the ship deckplans
Harrisonk:	in it and print them out (or as GIF files) and while on that
subject mapping programs
Harrisonk:	(world, system, subsector, etc) would be very nice to.  :done:
ClayRBush:	!
FarFuture:	Yes. I  agree. But the basic product for Traveller will still be
paper. and tat includes
FarFuture:	1) the deck plan idea I mentioned, and
FarFuture:	2) the Atlas of the Imperium, with a few core areas pre-defined,
nbut the rest showing only
FarFuture:	the hexes and a dot showing that we know (from pre Long Night
re4cords) that there is a worl
Allen024:	?
FarFuture:	d there. You generate the world data and fill in the balnks. And
ultimately, any or all of t
FarFuture:	these items should have a computer designer/mapper system as well.
FarFuture:	:done:
OGF Zeus:	Clay is up.
ClayRBush:	Mapping programs for subsector and sector maps require a standard
ClayRBush:	file layout, so that the program can find the records it needs,
and only
ClayRBush:	then the fields it needs from the records.
ClayRBush:	I'm tired of trying shareware programs that require i retype the
whole file before
ClayRBush:	they condescend to put out a map.
ClayRBush:	:done:
FarFuture:	Yes, I agree. And I think we need to define (early on) the
standard file layouts for ships,
FarFuture:	people, sectors, and worlds so there can be many different
approaches to such computer
FarFuture:	programs and interfaces. :done:
OGF Zeus:	Allen is up.
Allen024:	Will the history of the Imperium as published in JTAS from 1100
forward still be "canon",
Allen024:	or are we starting over with only broad ideas of what's to come?
Allen024:	(I sure hope so :)) :done:
FarFuture:	I have no intention of invalidating the history as published so
far. That will not stop me
FarFuture:	from "re-interpreting" that history in light of new or different
underlying principles, but
FarFuture:	I won't invalidate the events. :done:
ClayRBush:	!
Allen024:	!
FarFuture:	!
OGF Zeus:	Clay is up.
ClayRBush:	The 'Concise History of the Third Imperium" in Digest 17 is a
superb compilation
FarFuture:	BTW. Steve Jackson has suggested that the Emperor wakes up one
day,
FarFuture:	slaps his forehead, and remarks what a terrible dream he just had.
:done: again
ClayRBush:	of published data on the Imperium's history. and the author made a
special point of not
ClayRBush:	adding anything that would invalidate "re-interpreting" the
events. )(The author's initials
ClayRBush:	were "CRB." You figure it out.)
FarFuture:	Clay is with the program.
ClayRBush:	::done:
OGF Zeus:	Who would that be Clay? :)  Allen is up.
OnlineHost:	HCDawson has entered the room.
Allen024:	The history is important, but I'd like to see branching timelines
(as "unofficial")  for
Allen024:	those who don't want to use the Rebellion/Virus/whatever. :done:
FarFuture:	I'll consider your suggestion. :done:
OnlineHost:	HCDawson has left the room.
ClayRBush:	?
OGF Zeus:	Marc, you are up.
FarFuture:	Look at the time. Two hours, and we've barely gotten started. Let
me conclude with the
FarFuture:	following thoughts:
FarFuture:	1. I am very glad to be back. The welcome I am getting is
gratifying. I appreciate it.
FarFuture:	2. Traveller is a great game and a great universe, and I want a
lot of people to become
FarFuture:	intimately acquainted with it... playing in it and building it.
There are great oppor-
FarFuture:	tunities for people to contribute. With that in mind, we need
(Ken!) to put together a
OnlineHost:	JennRie has entered the room.
FarFuture:	"bible" and post it, so people will know (within reason) what is
canon and what they can
OGF Zeus:	Hello JennRie, Welcome to the Game Designers Forum Conference! This
is
OGF Zeus:	our second conference with Marc Miller talking about Traveller.
FarFuture:	maniuplate.
OnlineHost:	KFS1068 has left the room.
FarFuture:	3. At the foundation, the purpose for Traveller is to have fun. We
nee to keep that in mind
OnlineHost:	JennRie has left the room.
OnlineHost:	JennRie has entered the room.
OnlineHost:	KFS1068 has entered the room.
FarFuture:	as we produce materials. Thanks everyone. :done:
OnlineHost:	JennRie has left the room.
ImperGame:	ditto::done::
Frog God:	Thank you very much for coming, Marc!
Frog God:	We really appreciate it!
Paragon369:	Take care Marc!!!
OGF Zeus:	Thanks Marc!  And everyone in attendance! And the frogginator! :)
Frog God:	And thank you Zeus for moderating!
Allen024:	Glad I stumbled in!
FarFuture:	You are all welcome. Thanks for having me. I hope you all earned a
lot about what you wanted
SDraper999:	Best of luck.
FarFuture:	to know. Feel free to email me at FarFuture@aol.com, and cc:
ImperGame@aol.com.
Frog God:	And remember everyone, you can stay up to date in the GDF Forum on
the future of Traveller, at least
ClayRBush:	Vio con Dios.
OGF Zeus:	Conference log ending at 12:06 PM EST



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #3
********************************

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Traveller-digest            Friday, 10 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 004

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #2
         2. Re: Submersable space-ships.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk (Paul Radford)
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:28:48 +0000
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #2

>From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk

>**To arm a star ship with torpedos would be silly IMHO. A starship has a
>**primary role for interplanetary or interstellar operations. The torpedos
>**would be wasteful on internal volume. Better to fit more useful equipment.
>**Fitting of torpedo's, a fairly antiquated technology at TL-10+ is best
>**assigned to purpose built submersibles. Submarines would make useful
>**planetary defense role is carrying a meson weapon or PDM's.
>
>ok it may not make any sense, for a large ship, but a small system-aqua
>fighter?
>they may be the only quick agents able to get in, launch a torpedo at a deep
>oceanic base and get out quickly.  Another thing is how fast would futuristic
>ships be able to hit the water in order to submerge, or take off.
>I suppose they could carry pods.

I assume that these system-aqua fighters will be attacking an enemy world
possessing the theoretical underwater base from what has been said. I also
assume that all planetary defences have been neutralised in order that
these fighters have access to the ocean?

Surely if the planetary defences have been neutralised, then the orbiting
vessels are likely to possess meson weapons with which to neutralise deep
core meson gun mounts. Why not use the meson gun on the base in question?

True you assume that large vessels with meson weapons might not be
available (i wish you luck neutralising all the defences), then the
fighters are presumably carried aboard a tender or fighter carrier of some
kind to move them about? Surely its escorts would have meson guns?

If you mean that the aqua fighters are based upon a world already then why
are they attacking a base that will in all probability belong to the world
government? If the world is balkanised then fair enough.

I think submarines at this level would still fulfill the role better. Such
submarines would not have to take weeks to get on station in a patrol area.
Such vessels would be able to quickly (relatively speaking) fly close to
the patrol area then vanish below the waves. The same when a quick move is
needed.

Basically IMHO, sub aqua fighters armed with torpedos would have very
limited use and not fulfill any roles other than a very specialised niche
which in itself is questionable.




- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Paul "Lynx" Radford          | paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk
Department Of Immunology     | No web page :(
Queens Medical Centre        |
Nottingham                   | BITS Member, TCS: 47th Raider Squadron
England                      | MI (UK): Lynx, Acolyte of Shroud & SSS member
(+44) 0115 9249924 ext 43494 |
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 12:29:04 +0100
Subject: Re: Submersable space-ships.

Hugh Foster writes:

With reference to ships floating.

> With anti-gravity drives, do you need negative bouyancy? Can't you just "fly
> down?"

I don't think anti-gravity drives allow you to increase the mass of
the ship, just to negate most of it.  As such "flying down" means you
are going to have to basicly up end your ship and exert thrust to get
it down, and to keep it down.  I don't know how "visible" thruster
plates are when they're on, but as far as TNE thrust systems go, this
is going to keep your fuel processing plants going over time, and it's
going to be rather easy to spot you (not good for an SDB).

			Chris.



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 11 May 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 005

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Traveller-digest V1996 #2
         2. Aol Conference
         3. Something's wrong with the lists.
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #2
         5. Re: HEPlaR underwater
         6. Re: HEPlaR underwater
         7. TML:  Combat Tactics in RPG fire fights
         8. [none]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 08:23 PDT
Subject: Traveller-digest V1996 #2

>
>From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
>Subject: Re: TNE:  Rules Enhancements for realism
>       Base
>        XP   Auto Recoil  Range
>Level  Cost  Miss Bonus*  Bonus**  Description
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>None      - 17-20  -        -      Normal Small Arms Skill
>I        10 18-20  1       15m     Level I Exp. w/weapon skill
>II       12 19-20  2       20m     Level II Exp. w/weapon skill
>III      14   20   3       25m     Level III Exp. w/weapon skill
>- --
> And I'm assuming if someone has over a level 3 in their SA skill, that it
>would be the same as a level 3?

The Roman numeral "level" is not associated with the skill level, it is
an indicator of "level of expertise", so you can have a Small Arms Skill
of 8, with Level II Expertise, etc.

I didn't invent it, I just tweaked it.  This might have been in the TW2K
d20 version...I can't recall if it was in the TNE book....

Joel



jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com
internet multimedia trials 
intel corporation
2111 ne 25th ave, m/s: jf2-74
Hillsboro, OR 97124
(503)264-3792

"My views, opinions, etc. do not necessarily reflect those of my company...
 etc. etc...."


------------------------------

From: "V.A.G." <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 17:24:04 MET
Subject: Aol Conference

Has anyone taken the time to really filter out the new and useful 
information given in the AOL Conference?
If so, could you please either post it or mail me?
Thanks a lot,
V.A.G.
- ------
"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer 
obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end 
of the world is fast approaching."                     - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC
- ------ 
- -"Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!!"

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 11:27:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Something's wrong with the lists.

Okay, the new format is no problem, but what's with the inclusion of old 
digests?

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 09:23:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #2

On Fri, 10 May 1996, Joel Lovell wrote:

> The Roman numeral "level" is not associated with the skill level, it is
> an indicator of "level of expertise", so you can have a Small Arms Skill
> of 8, with Level II Expertise, etc.
 Hmm, I've never run accross such a chart and I own all version of
Twilight and Traveller...
 Mind posting the chart?


bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 16:35:09 GMT
Subject: Re: HEPlaR underwater

Tommy Grav you wrote :

> HEPlaR is not plates but stand for
> 
>   High Energy Plasma Rockets
> 
> so their effects on water would be that it vapourizes it and becomes rather 
> detectable in the thermal spectrum.
>
> Tommy Grav         | tommyg@ifi.uio.no

It's a problem if we want to preserve the canon of hiding SDBs underwater. 
Perhaps we should assume that SDBs, corsairs and other ships in need of 
concealability have some kind of magneto-hydro dynamic drives rigged in the 
fuel scoops. (This may not be entirely correct) MHDs work by passing an 
electric current through water in a magnetic field inside the MHD tube, this 
produces a force on the water which jets it out the back of the MHD tube. Given 
the power generation capacity of Traveller ships, and the availability of 
superconductors to make magnets, I don't think that adding this to the fuel 
scoops (which would require a hatch to open at the closed end of the scoop for 
MHD operation) would really take much volume/weight/cost. This offers a quick 
fix solution to keep ocean-deployed SDBs in the canon.

- -- 
Brendan 

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Fri, 10 May 1996 22:10:04 GMT
Subject: Re: HEPlaR underwater

On Fri, 10 May 1996 16:35:09 GMT, you wrote:

=> It's a problem if we want to preserve the canon of hiding SDBs underwater. 
=> Perhaps we should assume that SDBs, corsairs and other ships in need of 
=> concealability have some kind of magneto-hydro dynamic drives rigged in the 
=> fuel scoops. (This may not be entirely correct) MHDs work by passing an 
=> electric current through water in a magnetic field inside the MHD tube, this 
=> produces a force on the water which jets it out the back of the MHD tube.

Kinda like the "catapillar drive" from "Hunt For Red October" ?

The only problem that I see involves keeping a ship with positive bouyancy from
returning to the surface.  A ship's drives could certainly force a vessel under
water but would require continual operation to keep it under.

Ballast tanks would certainly solve the problem.  I thought I read somewhere
that a ship's fuel tanks were compartmentized and could be individually empty or
full (this would prevent the liquid hydrogen from sloshing around during
high-stressing maneuvers and keep the ship's balance in check).  I don't see why
these tanks could not also be filled with water to act as ballast.

jlindsay@direct.ca           Vancouver, British Columbia

Taz sez, "Ack! Icky plptht TAZ grunga yeek... PLPTHT!!!"

------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 18:02 PDT
Subject: TML:  Combat Tactics in RPG fire fights

>>8.  An article, to be posted for free, about tactics in firefights, plus
>>what actually happens to people during the high stress of a firefight, will
>>be forthcoming.  
>
>I will really like to see this when its post.

The tactics article is pretty far back on the back burner, I have paying
projects with deadlines for other game companies coming due, but I can write
up a quick note or two...

Unfortunately, a LOT of the little things that make up gunfight tactics are
not translateable to a RPG, at least not without making a lot of minor rule
adjustments.  Sorting through the major stuff will take some time.

Example:

A lot of what makes a person vulnerable in a gun fight is stupid mistakes
caused by poor habits during practice / training.  For instance, knowing how
to clear a misfeed, reloading when you can and not when you have to,
learning to deal with the physiological changes that combat stress induces
(loss of fine motor skills, tunnel vision, excorporation (out of body
experience), time slows down, etc.) all contribute to survival in a gun fight. 

You almost need a new skill: Combat Tactics, where if you fail, you do
something stupid.  (You know how many officers are killed because of taking
their eyes off the target while reloading?  Or from focusing on only one
combatant and getting flanked? Or from "spraying and praying" - not taking
the time to aim?  The answer:  Most of them.)  Training yourself to behave
intelligently under stress fire is a skill in it's own right.

At the moment though, in my games, a successful Difficult Perception roll
from the PC's (and NPC's) is needed to notice things going on outside their
immediate area of concentration, unless the Players specifically,
constantly, state they are checking.  It's very easy to get flanked when you
don't see it coming.

(In real life Deadly Force training, trainee's are drilled constantly so
that after engaging a target to immediately pan around the area, moving the
body like a tank turret with the weapon at a high ready position.  Basic
marksmanship is constantly repeated like a mantra, "Front sight, trigger
control", because you fall back on training instinctively under stress, and
these words magically appear in your mind, making you take control of the
situation.  He who shoots most accurately first, shoots last.  

You have to train exactly how you want to behave in a real firefight.
That's why you always dump and forget about spent ammo / mags while training
- - so you don't get killed like the cops in the 70's did when they got in
firefights.  They wasted time bending down to pickup brass and dropped
bullets after reloading in a real firefight because that's what their range
instructors made them do in practice.

I also have the PC's deal with an abundance of crap guns, cheap guns,
expensive crap guns, good and crappy ammo, all kinds of manufacturer's
brands, and it gets worse from world to world.  

They have to "learn" what's good, what's not.  And if they trust the advice
of a minimum wage old fart / kid behind the counter to sell them a good
weapon, they better hope he's the rare, knowledgeable gun shop owner and not
some armchair general who gets them some piece of hype.   I love to role
play the store people, I can sucker the PC's into buying anything, until
they learn better in a scary situation.  They pretty much learn to research
things on their own, stick to know reliable "companies" and verify things on
their own.  They also learn that out of the box is rarely good, and
reputable tactical modifications is a good thing.  (spend money, or learn
gunsmithing skills)

How many games do you know of where the PC's buy guns, go on a mission, and
don't even think twice about how well it will work for them?  

Don't get me wrong, I don't waste a lot of time nitpicking the PC's, their
characters are supposed to be the experts, not the Players, and a lot of
this is simply narrated into the story for flavor and background.  

I'm just trying to point out that a lot of real world tactical knowledge
doesn't translate well to game mechanics.  

Here are a number of survival tips that would translate into combat
mechanics, some tongue in cheek:

1.  Learn the difference between Cover and Concealment.  A lot of things
that you might think would be Cover won't.

2.  Reload when you want to, not when you have to.

3.  In the game, have the character carefully weigh the factors important in
a firearm, Recoil Value, capacity, damage, penetration, and base range.
Those lasers are great, I wish I had one.

4.  You can never have too many bullets.  Many a gunfight survivor has
claimed they wished they would have carried more ammo.

5.  Maximize use of Cover and Concealment.

6.  Allies should cover each other, and do so when "leap frogging" from
cover to cover.

7.  If the enemy is in range, so are you. Good old Murphy-axiom.

8.  Avoid gun fights.  If you must get in one, make sure you have a gun.  

9.  Keep aware of your surroundings, always expect to be flanked.  

10. Flank them first.

11. Use body armor.  

12. Carry a backup gun. At the very least you can arm an ally who might not
be armed, or loses their weapon, or if you are being grappled with, you can
grab it (if you didn't stick it in your ankle) and use it.

13. Handguns should just be used to defend yourself until you can reach the
rifle/shotgun you should have had in the first place.

14. Marksmanship, marksmanship, marksmanship!  If your character is not a
super skilled shooter, take the time to aim.  Take cover first...


Well, hope you enjoyed my lecturing.  This was just off the cuff, haven't
written the article yet that I had in mind.

Joel
jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com
internet multimedia trials 
intel corporation
2111 ne 25th ave, m/s: jf2-74
Hillsboro, OR 97124
(503)264-3792

"My views, opinions, etc. do not necessarily reflect those of my company...
 etc. etc...."


------------------------------

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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 654
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X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 654

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) change of address
	by AMNUSS@delphi.com
  2) Engineering crew
	by hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
  3) Splitting the list? Why?
	by 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
  4) Re: Splitting the list? Why?
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  5) NT Mailing List Ideas and "NT" vs. "T4" acronyms.
	by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  6) Re(2): Tech/Price Differences
	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
  7) Re: Re(2): Tech/Price Differences
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  8) BinHex
	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  9) 
	by "Raul Max. Espinosa" <muz@redestb.es>
 10) ???????
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
 11) Re: TRAVELLER digest 653
	by Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 1996 21:23:44 -0500 (EST)
From: AMNUSS@delphi.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: change of address
Message-ID: <01I3COT6F6889AN4MP@delphi.com>


Please change my address

   From: amnuss@delphi.com

   To: amnuss@aol.com

The delphi account will be gone within 2 weeks or sooner.

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 09 Apr 96 20:56:28 EDT
From: hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Engineering crew
Message-ID: <199604100209.TAA17869@usr6.primenet.com>

There was discussion a while back about engineering crew sizes. On complaint
about TNE ship is the large crew sizes. After much analysis, I have come to the
conclusion that the TNE formula is flawed.

Each Engineer can operate, maintain, and repair a set number of engine
components. The flaw is that if the engine outputs 4x more power, the complexity
will increase by 4x also. Not so, the number of engine components will increase,
but so will their size. 

So a 100mw power plant, having about 100 different components will require one
engineer. The 400mw power plant has 200 different components, these being 2x as
large, would need only 2 engineers.



To correct ships already built. find the square root of the required engineering
crew and multiply by the square root of the number of drives.
IE a 2x 4,000mw tl-12 fusion power plants, would need a crew of 13 not 93! 


- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 9 Apr 1996 22:32:23 -0400
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Splitting the list? Why?
Message-ID: <199604100232.WAA05653@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

  I think the wisest thing to do would be to leave the lists "as is" and
simply allow posts about the new version of the game to both lists. yes,
that means duplicate mail for those who subscribe to both. That's the price

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #5
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 12 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 006

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Aquatic SDBs
         2. Starship construction
         3. Re: HEPlaR underwater
         4. Re: Aol Conference
         5. Weapon Specializations
         6. Re: Weapon Specializations
         7. Acronym list for TML/XTML (LONG)
         8. Re: HEPlaR underwater
         9. [none]
        10. Re: Aol Conference

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 09:58:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Aquatic SDBs

Brendan said: 
> It's a problem if we want to preserve the canon of hiding SDBs underwater. 
> Perhaps we should assume that SDBs, corsairs and other ships in need of 
> concealability have some kind of magneto-hydro dynamic drives rigged in the 
> fuel scoops. (This may not be entirely correct) MHDs work by passing an 
> electric current through water in a magnetic field inside the MHD tube, this 
> produces a force on the water which jets it out the back of the MHD tube. Given 
> the power generation capacity of Traveller ships, and the availability of 
> superconductors to make magnets, I don't think that adding this to the fuel 
> scoops (which would require a hatch to open at the closed end of the scoop for 
> MHD operation) would really take much volume/weight/cost. This offers a quick 
> fix solution to keep ocean-deployed SDBs in the canon.

	This is actually pretty similar to a discussion we had on the 
beta list a few months ago.  We were talking about heplar in the 
atmosphere, but it should work roughly the same in water also.  
Basically, spacecraft with airframe hulls and all grav vehicles would 
have air intakes which they used to bring air into the HePLAR chamber 
where it would be superheated along with a very tiny amount of hydrogen 
before being expelled out the thrust nozzles.  This allows heplar to 
actually be "no more dangerous than a jet engine" as GDW claimed because 
by using much more reaction mass you can have a _lot_ lower exhaust temp.
	Not only does this provide another reason to have an AF rather
than SL hull (you can fly near inhabited areas) but it gave us an excuse
to have a minimum size for heplar in space but not in atmosphere.  This
was important to us because we were trying to stuff the genie of heplar
missiles back in the bottle while still allowing air/rafts. :-)
	Underwater, this could work pretty much the same way.  In fact, 
it might work even better since water makes such good reaction mass.  Of 
course, you still have the problem of a big thermal sig.  You'd have to 
drop the part about only AF hulls, too, because IIRC, SDBs are usually 
only SL.

 
James Lindsey said: 
>The only problem that I see involves keeping a ship with positive bouyancy from
>returning to the surface.  A ship's drives could certainly force a vessel under
>water but would require continual operation to keep it under.
> 
>Ballast tanks would certainly solve the problem.  I thought I read somewhere
>that a ship's fuel tanks were compartmentized and could be individually empty
>or full (this would prevent the liquid hydrogen from sloshing around during
>high-stressing maneuvers and keep the ship's balance in check).  I don't see
>why these tanks could not also be filled with water to act as ballast.

	This makes perfect sense.  After all, ships fill their tanks with 
water to convert it into fuel all the time.  Why not just use it for 
ballast?  Of course, if you tanks are already full, this may require you 
to dump refined fuel and take on unrefined (water) but then SDBs don't 
have jump drive anyway, so what does it matter?

- --Muir

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 03:30:20 PST
Subject: Starship construction

Steven Alexander <salexander@dttus.com> writes:

> For example, SpaceMaster says that Vol of a starship in cubic 
> meters=Mass*3, while FFS says V=Mass*14.  How does this relate to 
> displacement tonnage???  Supposedly, FFS says that each ton of liquid 
> hydrogen takes up 14 cubic meters of space.  It seems to me that 
> SpaceMaster on the other hand, says that each ton of mass takes up 3 
> cubic meters (I'm assuming here that they use water versus hydrogen 
> for their calculation).

For what it is worth, water masses 1 metric ton per cubic meter. To get
the mass of a cubic meter of other materials look up the specific
gravity (aka density) and multiply by it:

(these figures are from memory)

air		  .001
aluminum	~2.5
titanium	~4
iron		~7.8
copper		~8
lead		11.3
mercury		13.6
gold		19.3


> Also, another question related to CT/MT power plants...why do these 
> craft require so many MW of power???  IM not an educated 
> physicist-type as you can tell, but I know that approx. 515MW is equal 
> to about .1% of USA's annual power needs.

I think you better recheck your figures. For one thing I'll bet you
that the figure you saw was MW/hours or some such. Which makes it a
measure of *energy*, not power.

Even so, 500 megawatts is a not all that large power plant. Big, but
not *huge*.  (Remember .1% is 1/1000th!) Commercial power plants are
rated in *gigawatts* these days.

> Some large MT warships use 
> 540 billion watts and some smaller 400 ton craft use almost 1 billion 
> watts!!!!  In 2300AD, some of the larger ships require 150 to 300 MW.  
> Realistically, does all this make sense??

Consider. It takes a *lot* of energy to change the velocity of a
multi-thousand ton ship. At 10 m/s a 1000 ton *mass* (not displacement)
ship has a kinetic energy of 50 Mj. As a *vast* oversimplification, to
accelerate at 1 g, you have to add that much velocity ebery second.
Which would (ignoring *lots* of details!) require 50 Mj/s which is the
same as 50 MW. In reality, it takes a *lot* more energy than that,
partly because propulsion isn't 100% efficient, and partly because
kinetic energy goes up as the *square* of the velocity.

> I can understand that a 
> jump drive would require sufficient energy, but the other ship systems 
> shouldn't require more than 50 MW on even the largest 
> starships....help!!

Look at it this way. 50 MW is *only* 68 thousand horsepower. That's
*way* too low.

> How many MW of energy does an wet-navy aircraft carrier, nuclear sub,
> or cruiser produce currently???

A normal *freighter* produces enough power to run a small city. That's
how Con-Ed got the power to start up the power plants in New York City
after the great blackout in the late 60s. They had one of the
freighters in New York harbor tie up at the dock by one of the power
plants and they ran a cable from the ship's generators to the power
plant. That gave them *more* than enough power to run the fuel pumps,
automatic stokers, etc, *and* run the control systems. 

Likewise, in the early 60s a hurricane knocked out all power on one of
the smaller Hawaiian islands. The Navy sent a nuclear sub to the island
to provide power. It had enough *spare* power to run the city.

And if I recall correctly, standard items in the Army are such things
as portable generators up to half a megawatt. 

> And also, over what time period does the reactor output this energy??? 
> Is this a per/kw hour type figure??  How many volts in 1 MW???

You don't understand the units. Watts, kilowatts, megawatts, and
gigawatts are all units of *power*. Power is "so much energy per unit
*time*". So a 1 MW power plant produces up to 1 megawatt. Which is 1
megajoule per second. A megajoule is roughly the energy required to
lift 100 tons 1 meter against 1 gravity.

Watts are the *rate* at which energy is produced.

Units like "kilowatt hour" are units of *energy*. A kW hr is 3600 kW
sec or 3.6 Mj. Or the energy required to lift 360 tons 1 meter.

The relation between volts and watts is only useful for *electrical*
power. And the rule there is volts times amps equals watts. So the
question "how many volts in 1 MW" doesn't mean anything. If I had 1 Mw
of electrical power, it might be 1 amp at a million volts, or 1 million
amps at 1 volt. Or 1000 amps at 1000 volts. 

Another quick example. The "srvice" coming into the average house is
220-250 volts, and the breakers are rated for at *least* 60 amps total.
Maybe more. I think the incoming lines are good for something like
100-200 amps. That's a peak draw of 50 kW. So a 500 MW power plant
could only handle the peak load from 10,000 such houses.

Luckily, houses rarely draw anywhere *near* that much power. But ask
around. Find out what the backup generators at your local hospital are
rated at (then pick your jaw up off the floor). If you live near a
seaport, find out what the power plants on ships are rated at. If you
live near a railroad, find out what a diesel locomotive is rated at. If
you live near an airport, find out what the engines on a jumbo jet are
rated at. If any of these figures are in horsepower, look up the
conversion factor (I seem to recall that 1 hp = 735 watts). 

The power consumption figures do get argued about from time to time.
But quite often it is because they are too *low*! 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 12:40:20 -0600
Subject: Re: HEPlaR underwater

At 04:35 pm 5/10/96 GMT, "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
>It's a problem if we want to preserve the canon of hiding SDBs underwater. 
>Perhaps we should assume that SDBs, corsairs and other ships in need of 
>concealability have some kind of magneto-hydro dynamic drives rigged in the 

        If you're going for concealability, an MHD is a great big "sink me"
sign. Look at one of the premier subhunting aircraft, the P3 Orion. That big
boom sticking out the back is a Magnetic Anomaly Detector, and it works by
detecting the minute disturbances the sub causes in the Earth's magnetic
field. And that's just the passive effects of a large metal object in the
water. Now you want to put these powerful magnetic fields in there? Go for
it! You be the defender, I'll be the attacker!

        Somebody else mentioned the "caterpillar drive" from "Hunt For Red
October" -- just another example of Hollywood gratuitously screwing with
technical details in a good book. Tom Clancy's original had a derivative of
a ducted fan, not some technobabble that sounded good but destroyed the
original premise of "stealth"
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 12:40:18 -0600
Subject: Re: Aol Conference

At 05:24 pm 5/10/96 MET, you wrote:
>Has anyone taken the time to really filter out the new and useful 
>information given in the AOL Conference?

        Top things I picked up from first reading
        - Rules are going to be CT with a few additions. :(
        - FF&S is out - ship design is going to be crippled again :(
        - Greater variety of settings (Milieux), starting with Year 0 :)
        - DGP is apparently planning on rereleasing a bunch of old stuff on CD

In general, it looks like I'm probably _not_ going to bother with Yet
Another Rule Set.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 11:13:31 -0800
Subject: Weapon Specializations

>
>> The Roman numeral "level" is not associated with the skill level, it is
>> an indicator of "level of expertise", so you can have a Small Arms Skill
>> of 8, with Level II Expertise, etc.
> Hmm, I've never run accross such a chart and I own all version of
>Twilight and Traveller...
> Mind posting the chart?
>

The chart, as it originally appeared in the D20 upgrade to T2K Ref's
Screen, is effectively identical to the one posted. (I think the Exp Costs
vary slightly).

William F. Hostman

ANWFH@Orion.alaska.edu

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 13:52:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Weapon Specializations

On Sat, 11 May 1996, William F. Hostman wrote:

> The chart, as it originally appeared in the D20 upgrade to T2K Ref's
> Screen, is effectively identical to the one posted. (I think the Exp Costs
> vary slightly).
 Maybe I'm just dense or having a bad day, but the chart he posted gave no
relevant skill level to chart catagory scale.


bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 18:02:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Acronym list for TML/XTML (LONG)

Hi all.  I was just working on a list of acronyms and unusual terms used
on the TML/XTML.  I think it would make a useful addition to Mr. 
Dempsey's FAQ regarding the lists.  Here's what I've come up with so far,
and I'm sure it's incomplete and full of errors.  Please inform me of 
anything else you think should be included, and of any errors that need 
correcting or clarifications you consider necessary.

Some of these are not specifically XTML/TML related and are merely
commonly used short hands in email and newsgroups (but they confused me
when I first signed on, as I was new to the internet, so I've included
them). 


3G^3:  Guns, guns, guns, third edition. A design supplement.  Not Traveller 
specific, but often used by Traveller fans.

AFAIK: "As far as I know"

AP: Armor Piercing.  A type of ammunition.

AT: Anti-Tank.  A type of ammunition.

Book #n.  (e.g., Book 1: Characters and Combat).  Refers to a series of 
little black books which constituted one version of CT.

BTW: "By the way"

Cogs&Dogs: Vilani and Vargr.  Alien supplement for MT put out by DGP.
 
CT: Classic Traveller.  The original incarnation of the game published in 
1977.

DGP: Digest Group Publications.  A game company which produces Traveller 
materials.

DS: Discarding Sabot.  A type of armor-piercing ammunition.

FF&S: Fire, Fusion, & Steel.  A design supplement for TNE.

GDW: Game Designer's Workshop.  The game company which produced CT, MT 
and TNE.  Now out of business (IG has taken over the Traveller line).

HE: High Explosive.  A type of ammunition.

HEAP: High Explosive, Armor Piercing.  A type of ammunition.

HEAT: High Explosive, Anti-Tank.  A type of ammunition.

HG: High Guard, Book 5.  A CT supplement for spaceship design and 
combat.  Also contained advanced character generation for Navy characters.

IG: Imperium Games.  The company which has taken over publication of 
Traveller and which is putting out NT/T4.

IIRC: "If I recall correctly."

MM: Marc Miller.  Original creator of Traveller and major force behind NT/T4.

MT: MegaTraveller.  Considered the second incarnation of the game (though 
there were many variations of Classic Traveller).

NPAW: Neutral Particle Accelerator Weapon.

NT: New Traveller or Traveller 4.  The latest incarnation of the game.  
Designed by MM and published by IG.

PAW: Particle Accelerator Weapon.

Rats&Cats: Solomani & Aslan.  An alien supplement for MT put out by DGP.

RC: Regency Coalition?

RCES : AAARG. I'VE FORGOTTEN.  PLEASE INFORM.

RICE: PLEASE INFORM.

RICE paper: PLEASE INFORM.

RSB:  Regency Source Book.  A supplement for TNE put out by GDW.  

T4 : Traveller 4 or New Traveller.  The latest incarnation of the game (An 
alternative acronym to NT which refers to the same thing).

TML : Traveller Mailing list.

TNE : Traveller: The New Era.  Considered the third incarnation of the game.

T:TNE : Traveller: The New Era. (variant form of TNE)

IMO : "In my opinion"

IMHO : "In my humble opinion"

IMNSHO : "In my not so humble opinion"

SOM : Starship Operator's Manual.  A technical supplement by DGP.

WBH : World Builder's Handbook.  A world design supplement by DGP.

WTH : World Tamer's Handbook.  A world exploration supplement by DGP.

XTML : Xboat Traveller Mailing List.



<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>




------------------------------

From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse)
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 13:39:05 +1300
Subject: Re: HEPlaR underwater

Hi all,

Just thought I'd add my 2c's worth to this disscussion. If we assume that
the thrust pressure of the HEPlaR drives if sufficent overcome the pressure
of the surrounding water, then a problem would arise when starting the
drives. I would propose a large explosion (size dependant on drive rating
of ship, exhaust port area, etc...) to create a pressure wave that would by
immediately followed by the drives powering-up. This would not be ideal for
a stealthy getaway and would annoy the hell out of the planetary ecologists
and environmentalists.

Also, when under the water, how does it's preformance differ? Water is a
much denser media than space (what is'nt?) so would there be restrictions
on its speed, fuel efficency etc..

These are only thoughts, and are open to disscussion and alteration.

Thanks in advance,


 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Blair Lynch-Blosse, BSc (MSc student)         lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz
  Earth Sciences Department
  University of Waikato
  Hamilton                                            175.19'E 37.47'S
  New Zealand                "Trust No One. Deny Everything" - X-Files
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

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Subject: UUCP job killed
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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 655
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X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 655

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Re(2): Tech/Price Differences
	by PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
  2) re: Top Ten Rejected Acronyms
	by Christopher Beattie <chrisb@MPGN.COM>
  3) The furture of the mailing list
	by "David A. Nelson" <34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
  4) Re: New List Discussion
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  5) Ramblings from the Admin
	by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
  6) Re: What do we do now?
	by "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
  7) Re: What do we do now?
	by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
  8) Re: What do we do now?
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
  9) Java Sector Viewer
	by Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 01:26:09 -0700
From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Re(2): Tech/Price Differences
Message-ID: <01I3EAZ5ER0O91X850@pimacc.pima.edu>

From:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM" 10-APR-1996 07:42:55.58
To:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  "Multiple recipients of list"
CC:	
Subj:	Re(2): Tech/Price Differences

Date: Wed, 10 Apr 1996 10:28:29 -0400
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re(2): Tech/Price Differences
Sender: traveller@MPGN.COM

>Yeah, but those rules from Best of JTAS #1 mean that high tech goods are
>cheaper on low tech worlds!

The exchange factor was 1.00 at Tl-F A-port and lower by lower TL and port.
When you go to a world you convert your trusty Imperial Cr to local and you
would always get the same or more local creds for your Imperial.
How could that make high tech goods cheaper on low tech worlds?
I only have the original JTAS issue (#4) so maybe they changed it in Best of=
=8A?

/Backman
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think the original idea was derived from the fact that shoes made in the 
US are more expensive than ones made in Thailand. Same shoes, same tech, 
different price. 

When dealing with stuff beyond a systems nominal TL; 
I always kick the price up. If some TL15 thing costs 1000CR Imperial @ a TL15 
starport A world than I would divide by .7 (for example) if that was the ap-
propirate multiplier for another world with a lower TL. This would still be
in Imperial Credits, btw, so the cost in 'local' credits would be even higher.
This makes hi-tech stuff more expensive out in the boonies, even when buying 
with Imperial Credits, which is what I assume most Travellers will be carrying,
& is just the way I like things to work. It can get expensive out there on the 
Fringe when you rely too heavily on the highest tech.

Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu


- ------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Apr 1996 09:41:58 -0400
From: Christopher Beattie <chrisb@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: re: Top Ten Rejected Acronyms
Message-ID: <199604111341.JAA00582@Central.KeyWest.MPGN.COM>

Hmm, it seems my favorite one is missing from
the list, so may I add the 11th one? <G>

------------------------------

From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 21:24:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Aol Conference

From:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM" 11-MAY-1996 11:57:25.25
To:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Aol Conference

 Sat, 11 May 1996 12:39:05 -0600 (MDT)
Date: Sat, 11 May 1996 12:40:18 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Re: Aol Conference

At 05:24 pm 5/10/96 MET, you wrote:
>Has anyone taken the time to really filter out the new and useful 
>information given in the AOL Conference?

        Top things I picked up from first reading
        - Rules are going to be CT with a few additions. :(
        - FF&S is out - ship design is going to be crippled again :(
        - Greater variety of settings (Milieux), starting with Year 0 :)
        - DGP is apparently planning on rereleasing a bunch of old stuff on CD

In general, it looks like I'm probably _not_ going to bother with Yet
Another Rule Set.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My POV is that all these things  are major plusses.

In general, I'm just about positive, I'm going to go for it. Of course
I didn't bother with the last rule set so this one fits right in with
where I'm at right now.

Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #6
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 13 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 007

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Underwater drives 
         2. US Electrical Generating Capacity
         3. WSeapon SPec.
         4. Newbie allert!
         5. RC worlds: Eos
         6. [none]
         7. Gravball Rules Needed.
         8. Re: Newbie allert!
         9. Names for debate results
        10. Whither Traveller debate results

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 18:07:23 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Underwater drives 

which brings me back to the fact that a stealth drive is needed if a ship 
is to operate underwater, as the normal drive would be too obvious.
All the underwater drive requires to do is to move the ship without obviously
being noticed to a launch area, and some underwater-habitats may even BAN
starship drived working underwater, something about Ecological and Exposure
?
?
IMHO something generating heat like the starship drive would be too obvious.
Ok you say, im not going to be under water for too long, lets do a cold
start.  Some though may rather not do a cold start.  And what about structure
would the starship have to be designed a different way to withstand high
external pressure or not ?

------------------------------

From: Rob Dean <robdean@access.digex.net>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 18:49:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: US Electrical Generating Capacity

Before this gets too out of hand, I've got the 1993 Britannica World Data
Annual, and I see that they list the total electrical generating capacity 
of the United States as 775,396 MW...

Rob Dean
robdean@access.digex.net

(For comparison purposes only--your electrical generating capacity may 
vary... (-: )

------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 17:44:56 -0800
Subject: WSeapon SPec.

>> The chart, as it originally appeared in the D20 upgrade to T2K Ref's
>> Screen, is effectively identical to the one posted. (I think the Exp Costs
>> vary slightly).
> Maybe I'm just dense or having a bad day, but the chart he posted gave no
>relevant skill level to chart catagory scale.
>
There isn't one.

Example: Joe (Str 8) has level 4 in Slug Rifle. Asset is 12. At short
range, he automatically fails with a roll of 17-20 (see combat rules) even
though this is an average task (Roll <= (2x Asset)).

Now, let's say he's got 4mm Gauss at II. He still rolls versus his Slug
Rifle, but now only has an autofail on a 19-20, and reduces the recoil per
shot by 2, as well. This is shown on his sheet as follows:

        Slug Rifle      4/12
                Gauss R II
                18mm SG III
His 18mm Shotgun also uses the same Slug Rifle Skill and asset, but since
it's level III, he reduces the Recoil by three, and only fails on a 20! The
rules actually say to add the level to Str when figuring recoil penalties,
but every gm of t2k and TNE who uses the specialization rules subtracts it
instead from the recoil#, with a minimum recoil of 1 per shot, period.

Also, in both cases he's got a longer range for the 18mm SG and the 4mm
Gauss, but uses only his slug rifle base skill (with full recoil, normal
range, and 17-20 automiss) for all other slug rifles, such as 7mm mausers,
5mm assault rifles, etc. He wouldn't even get the bonus with a 19mm
(roughly 10ga) Shotgun.

He'd also not get it with different brands until he'd familiarized himself
(about as many range hours as required XP), but wouldn't have to rebuy for
a different model of same caliber and case sizes, just practice.

William F. Hostman

ANWFH@Orion.alaska.edu

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

From: DARYL ADAMS <Dadams@msmail.cuscal.com.au>
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 11:35:00 PDT
Subject: Newbie allert!

G'day all!

Since I am new to this list, I want to know the following...

a) what topics have been done to death, so that I can avoid them.
b) what topics causes flame wars, again, so I can avoid.
c) the latest with NT.
d) is there ant 2300 fans out there?

Darryl.

 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 ---------------------------------------------
Dadams@msmail.cuscal.com.au
The views represented here are the authors only and not of CUSCAL of 
Affiliated Credit Unions.
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  
 --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 03:56:01 +0000
Subject: RC worlds: Eos

New Era -	Eos  -  C674656-B  S  Ag Ni  502 RC

Pre-Rebellion 	Zloff - C674666-8  Ag Ni     302 Im

Before the collapse Eos was Nike Nimbus' Breadbasket, and a retreat world
for the upper classes of Nike Nimbus. Ruled by a Govenor appointed by 
the Nimban dictator, it was a quiet world.
Nimban corporations controlled vast swathes of the planet, Plantations, 
usually used for agriculture, though some were used for retreats and resource 
exploration.
Most areas of natural beauty on the planet were the siting of Domains - each
a home for the super wealthy of Nike Nimbus, called Landholders.
The atmospheric taint is pollen, released by Eosian plants. Whilst the 
introduction of Terran plants for agriculture has decreased the pollen level
significantly, it is very irritating. Due to the small axial tilt of Eos,
seasons are almost unnoticable, and pollen is present all year round. Only the
Repos islands, whose plants have all been replaced by Terran varieties by
their Landholders, are remote enough from land to not suffer from the pollen at
all.

The coming of the rebellion brought great change to Eos, the Nimban Military
established a base on planet, and upgraded the starport to B class. The 
planetary tech base was increased to TL-12 to provide better support to 
the military forces. Nimban corporations diversified, many investing in Eos,
for products and resources that were now imposible to import from elsewhere.

The Virus didn't hit Eos unawares, there was sufficient warning for it to
'harden' it's high tech equipment, as the majority of its tech base was still
TL-8 this was accomplished quickly.

Once it was certain that interstellar civilization had fallen, the Govenor of
Eos, Francine Dubar, declared herself Empress. Using the Marine garrison of
the capital, Port Albert, she attempted to enforce her rule accross the whole
planet. The ordinary population may have been willing to kowtow to her - the 
Landholders and the Corporates were not. Using their well equiped security 
forces they launched a bloody campaign that ended with a lightning strike on 
the capital that killed the Empress and forced the Marines to surrender.

Once order was restored the victors set up the Grand Council. Here 
representatives of the Corps - who owned most of the surviving high tech
industry, and the Landholders - who owned most of the lower tech industry, met
to run the planet. The Council continues to run the planet to the present day.
The only events of note up to the formation of the Dawn League was the First 
Fall Revolt of 1171. This ended in 1173, with the Lords of First Fall being 
given seats on the Council. First Fall is a continent peopled almost 
exculsively with Eos' original Rule of Man colonists. By 1190 the planetary TL
was 10. Contact with the Hivers and the subsequent formation of the Dawn League
led to the Starport being reactivated as a C class facility, and by 1198 the
Tech level stood at 11.

The Council takes a mild Centrist stance in the Coalition's affairs, and has 
cordial relations with all of the Centrist bloc. Relations are cool with Nike 
Nimbus, their former master - as it is associated with the last Govenor, and 
her imperial ambitions. The Nimbans may not have helped matters by insiting Eos 
resume her position as a Nimban colony on recontact in 1192. The most recent 
source of friction between the two planets was a diplomatic offensive by the 
Nimbans to recover two Vixtrix Sloops of the old Nimban Navy, grounded at
the Port Albert Starport. This was only solved when the Eosians donated the 
ships to the Dawn League, who refurbished them.

The goverment takes a back seat in most Coalition affairs, most of its energies
are devoted to expanding its high tech production facilities, which still are
small compared to the lower tech facilites which are the norm on the planet.
The goverment, and the Landholders sponsor SAG missions to former TL 10-12
planets to get the equipment they need. First Fall Lords also sponsor covert
missions to obtain modern weapons to secure thier positions.

Eosians weathered the collapse well. They see the Coalition's rise to be 
irisistable - and their place will be at its heart.


Eamon Watters.

------------------------------

From: uucp@uu2.psi.com
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Subject: UUCP job killed
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			    TRAVELLER Digest 656

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Arden
	by ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
  2) Survey on Future of TML/XTML
	by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  3) Re: Arden
	by Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
  4) Co-operate to survive
	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Apr 96 13:10:00 PDT
From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
To: "'tml'" <traveller@MPGN.COM>, "'xboat'" <xboat@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Arden
Message-ID: <316EB8BE@missgate2.sunderland.ac.uk>


Hi folks

I'm writing a scenario (that I expect will turn into a
campaign) set on the world of Arden in the
Spinward Marches.

I would like to try and keep this material within the
existing canon as far as possible.  I have consulted
all the sources that I have at my disposal (Spinward
Marches, Library data, Regency Sourcebook)
that at least cover the area.  I was wondering if any
of you knew of any information relating specifically
to Arden that exists outside of these?  I'm referring
to anything from scenarios to snippets of information
about names of cities etc. (pref. 1110 or earlier)

If you know of anything I'd be grateful if you could
e-mail me with the name of the publication so I can
try and track it down (or if it's only a little bit of info,
perhaps you could just let me know what it is...)
Thanks a lot.

By the way, in all the discussion about new lists and
names for the new incarnation of Traveller, and in the
light of the ongoing CT/TNE schism,  I'm surprised
that nobody's mentioned:

Traveller 4: The Empire Strikes Back ....
;-)

Cheers

Iain

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 10:33:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
To: Xboat Mailing List <xboat@MPGN.COM>,
Subject: Survey on Future of TML/XTML
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.91.960412101835.9456A-100000@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

Hi All.  I think with this discussion swinging into full action, it's 
time for a little game of "survery says!".  Please email me at:

charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca

The message subject line should be "Survey: Option x", where x 
is the number of your preferred option.  

Options:

1. Leave Traveller and Xboat alone, create new mailing list for New 
Traveller.

2. Leave lists as are, but discuss New Traveller on Xboat.

3. Leave lists as are, but discuss New Traveller on Traveller.

4. Leave lists as are, and discuss New Traveller on either/both.


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 23:13:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Gravball Rules Needed.

Hi all.  I have been considering running a campaign around a gravball
tournament (or some other futuristic sport), and I need some rules for
resolving matches.  I remember vaguely seeing an add for a Gravball
game way back.  I think it was by FASA.  Does anyone have a copy of this? 
What's it like?  Alternatively, does anyone have any house rules for this
sort of thing? 

Thanks in advance,
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: mike foy <musashi@norfolk.infi.net>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 23:50:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Newbie allert!

At 11:35 AM 5/13/96 PDT, you wrote:
>
>G'day all!
>
>Since I am new to this list, I want to know the following...
>
>a) what topics have been done to death, so that I can avoid them.
>b) what topics causes flame wars, again, so I can avoid.
>c) the latest with NT.
>d) is there ant 2300 fans out there?
>
>Darryl.
>
>
 Darryl: First things first, e-mail ad2300@mars.galstar.com with the text
SUBscribe on the Subject heading and in the body of your e-mail message.
This will get you onto the 2300 AD mailing list. Second, checkout the 2300AD
Resource web page at http://www.ktb.net/~jayadan. Jay' page was worth paying
for access to the net!
This will hook you up with 2300 players all over the  Core.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------  
> ---------------------------------------------
>Dadams@msmail.cuscal.com.au
>The views represented here are the authors only and not of CUSCAL of 
>Affiliated Credit Unions.
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  
> --------------------------------------------
>
>

------------------------------

From: library@babylon5.dss.gov.au (DSS Library)
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 14:06:07 -0500
Subject: Names for debate results

Dear Folks -

Here is that list of names I promised you. This list of 87 "voters" corresponds
to the abbreviations in my analysis paper.

A        Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
AL       Andy Lilly <A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk>
AMc      ANGUS MCLELLAN <angus.mclellan@almac.co.uk >
AZ       Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
B        Brendan O'Donovan <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
BAM      Blair A. Monroe <BLAIRM@eworld.com>
BB       Benjy Barton <Benjy@iap.net.au>
BF       Bill Farrar <farrarb@vnet.net >
BJ       Bruce Johnson <JOHNSON@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu>
BMc      Bruce Alan Macintosh <bmac@astro.ucla.edu >
Borich   Brian Borich <b.borich@genie.com>
bpa      t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
Bri      Bri <bri@teleport.com>
C        Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
CB       Christopher Beattie <chrisb@MPGN.COM>
CC       Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
CG       Christopher Griffen <Christopher_Griffen_at_DMC-SJ3@dmcwave.com>
CrB      Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
CW       Christopher Weuve <caw@intercon.com>
Cy       Cynthia Higginbotham (Dragoness) <cyhiggin@usa.pipeline.com>
DB       David E. Brooks Jr <dbj@MPGN.COM>
DCB      David C. Broussard <broussa@ConnectI.com >
DE       David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
DEB      Douglas Berry <dberry@mailhost.hooked.net>
DG       David J. Golden <goldendj@csn.com>
DN       DAVID NELSON <dnelson@cps.cmich.edu>
DS       David Summers <summers@max.arc.nasa.gov >
EH       Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
ER       Eris Reddoch <ereddoch@amaranth.com>
EW       Eamon Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
EWF      Edgar W. Francis, IV <gar@ucla.edu>
FM       Fred May <fredm@datasync.com >
GOS      Greg O'Sullivan, Deakin University ITS <gjo@brt.deakin.edu.au>
grim     grimscal@dove.mtx.net.au   -   also terry (lurker)
GWH      George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
H        Henry Penninkilampi <htp@dove.mtx.net.au >
HH       Harold D. Hale <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
HRM      Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
iain     iain rowan ??
J        Jerry Alexandratos (That Computer Guy) <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
JAK      John A. King <jking@interaccess.com>
JG       Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
JK       Jeff Kazmierski <odysseus@inetnebr.com >
JL       Julian Love <julian.love@st-johns.oxford.ac.uk>
JMM      John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
JN       Jeff Norton <jeff_michelle nort <103010.212@compuserve.com>
Joel     Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
JS       Jimmy Simpson <nimrod@dfw.net>
JZ       JEFF ZEITLIN <jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com>
Kmbr     Leigh O'Neil (Kimber) <kimber@spectra.net >
L        Les Howie <lhowie@lrmi.com>
LB       Lance Blyth <lrblyth@lamar.ColoState.EDU>
LM       Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk
LP       Lorenz E. Pogue <lpogue@notes.cc.bellcore.com>
M        Merrick Burkhardt <merrick@Rt66.com>
MA       Mark Archer <marcher@cccp.net >
MAT      Mark A. Trickett (MARK) <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
Max      M. Stiavelli <mstiavel@astro.sns.it>
MC       Mark Cook <markc@PEAK.ORG>
MHC      Mark H Clark <mhclark@iastate.edu> ??
MM       Marc Miller (!!!) <FarFuture@aol.com>
MS       Mark Seemann (Ulrikke Ekelund) <UEkelund@pc.ibt.dk>
MSH      Matthew S. Harelick (matth) <msh9848@hertz.njit.edu>
NTM      Nathan & Terri Mezel <hotchip@oeonline.com>
P        Paul Radford <HA282PMR01@ntu.ac.uk >
PMc      Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
Pug      Phil <PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu>
PW       Paul Walker <fredm@datasync.com >
R        Randy Hollingsworth <randyh@svpal.org>
RB       Bob Brown <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
RM       Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
rob      robert.brennan@isocor.ie
Rog      Roger Sanger <rodge@cyberspace.com >
S        Steven J Humphrey <sjhumphr@bournemouth.ac.uk>
S&V      Scott and Vivian Nolan <nolan@DGS.dgsys.com>
Sam      Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
SC       Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc
SJM      Simon J Mahony <simonm@ramhb.co.nz>
SL       Steve Lieb <liebx004@maroon.tc.umn.edu >
SMA      Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
SS       Susan M. Shock <34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu > and ASS (Allen Shock)
SZ       Shalom Zaidfeld <yu145850@YorkU.CA>
TS       Trent Smith <TFSMITH@POMONA.EDU>
UE       Ulrikke Ekelund <UEkelund@pc.ibt.dk>
VAG      V.A.G. <GREI5001@pcmail.uni-trier.de>
W        William F. Hostman <aswfh@acad2.alaska.edu >
WR       Will Richards <richarwt@jtasc.acom.mil >

oh, and DJW = me!

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
Library
Dept. of Social Security
Box 7788
Canberra Mail Centre ACT 2610


------------------------------

From: library@babylon5.dss.gov.au (DSS Library)
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 14:04:22 -0500
Subject: Whither Traveller debate results

Dear Folks (and Marc!) -

What have I been doing while off the Net? See below...

Here is a summary of the "Whither Traveller" debate, as at digest 614 (Thursday
29th February 1996). In many cases, I had to glean people's "votes" from one or
two throwaway sentences, so please forgive me if I have noted your vote
incorrectly. It dates from the time Marc extended his invitation to comment on
Traveller's direction (Digest 536/Xboat 490).

While you may think that this just gives everyone something to shoot at (ie.
another flame war is in the offing), my belief is that all the arguing has been
done - to death, in fact.

...And if you don't believe me, just review these threads (cross-postings to
Xboat & Digest are only counted under Digest figures):

          "Nilsen's Departure" -- Digest 484 to 499
          "GDW Closing Down"   -- Digest 536 to 540, Xboat 490 to 496
          "Whither Traveller"  -- Digest 536 to 598, Xboat 490 to 518

So please don't restart the TNE-vs-MT/CT thing again, OK? We all know the
sentiments on both sides. 

However, if you are not in the list below, feel free to cast your vote, now
that the battle lines have been drawn! I have already added mine ("DJW").

NOTE: "Voters" are abbreviated. I will send a separate list linking names to
abbreviations (eg. "MM" = Marc Miller).


Comment                     Voters                                        Total


GENERAL

Don't rush things           JN, SZ, AL                                        3
Concentrate on a few        JN                                                1
  things first
Concentrate on quality      CC, AL, HH, W, JZ, SS, AZ, ER, DJW                9
  control


RULES

     a. Overall

Use upgraded CT/MT Rules    MM, SMA, LB, S&V, W, BF, Pug, PMc, VAG, CC,      18
                            rob, RM, JS, AMc, DE, MSH, EWF, MS
Use TNE Rules               A, Cy, DG, M, C, SC, BJ, BB, BAM, DCB, J,        24
  (&/or upgrade them)       MAT, HH, Bri, AZ, grim, terry, JL, Fm, DN,
                            Kmbr, PMc, CG, JK
Support all versions        JG, VAG, LB, MC                                   4

     b. Formats

Make the Basic Rules small  A, DG, WR, NTM, Kmbr, RM, EWF                     7
Simplify core rules, then   RM, J, PW                                         3
  have additions/expansions
Multiple books (PHB, DMG)   RM, PW, NTM, SMA, DJW                             5

     c. Char Gen

Simple Char Gen (Bk2)       SMA, LB, W, DCB, CC, RM, PW, ER, DJW              9
Expanded Char Gen (MT)      W, DCB, LP, CC, SS, CG, JZ, RM, PW, ER, DJW      11
TNE Char Gen                SC, iain, ASS, DG, MAT                            5
Include Alien Char Gen      LB, W, JZ, PW, DJW                                5
Include more Char Gen       SMA, W, SC, BJ, CC, CG, JZ, iain, Bri, Borich,   13
  options than basic CT     AMc, PW, DJW
  (a la Citizens & TNE)          
Split stats                 ER, CC, (J-no), (TS-no)                      2Y, 2N
  (have more stats)

     d. Tasks

Use MT Tasks                (PMc-no), W, CC, SS, DG, JZ, AMc, RM         7Y, 1N
Use TNE Tasks               DCB, C, MAT, DG, CG, RM, NTM                      7

     e. Combat rules

Use simpler cbt than TNE    S&V, A, C, SS, JZ, AZ, CC, RM, DG, J, WR,        13
                            SMA, DJW
Use MT combat               CC, W                                             2
Use TNE combat              SC, BB                                            2

     f. Other rules

Use rules flowcharts        RM, M, DJW                                        3
Expand Law Level            SMA, LB, JZ, DJW                                  4
Expand TL                   SMA, LB, PMc, A, MAT, DG, MSH, DJW                8
Simpler/reworked World Gen  JZ, AMc, RM, DB, PW, MSH, SMA, EWF                8
Better Trade rules          JZ                                                1
Abstract space combat       CC, SS, RM                                        3


DESIGN RULES

CT Ships                    RM                                                1
HG/MT Ships                 PMc, W, LP, WR, MS                                5
FF&S Re-write               Cy, DG, M, W, SC, DCB, BJ, J, A, CW, JL, SS, ER, 23
                            JZ, AZ, Kmbr, MAT, JN, CrB, RM, Borich, EWF, DJW
FF&S Lite                   M, SC, DCB, A, J, CC, CW, C, W, rob, EW, SS, HH, 28
                            ER, DG, JZ, Kmbr, MAT, WR, CrB, AMc, RM, DB, PW,
                            Borich, SMA, EWF, DJW
Very Simple Vehicle Design  SMA, LB                                           2
BL/BR                       M, A, SC, LP, EW, DG, CG, J, AMc, RM, PW, DJW    12
Include Thruster Plates     PMc, CW, Borich, (BMc-no), HRM, (AZ-no),     7Y, 2N
                            W, AL, DJW
Striker-style book          SC, AMc, PW                                       3
Conversion rules            BJ, CC, SS, ER, J, JN, M, PW, VAG, AL, EWF, DJW  12
  (between HG <-> MT <-> FF&S <-> Omni)


BACKGROUNDS

TNE (RC & Regency)          MM, S&V, DG, BJ, JN, AZ, Kmbr, (PMc-no),    16Y, 1N
                            RM, B, JL, CC, AL, Sam, Borich, SMA, DJW
TNE only                    CG, DEB, bpa, NTM, HH                             5
MT (Shattered Imperium)     MM, W, DG, PMc, Pug, WR, AMc, VAG, LP, DJW       10
MT only                     RB, AL, CC                                        3
CT (Spin. M & Sol Rim)      MM, DG, A, RM, SMA                                5
Grandfather's Children      MM, BJ, LP                                        3
Long Night                  MM, BJ, ER                                        3
Early Imperium              MM, BJ, ER                                        3
2300AD                      JL                                                1
TNE (Virus, etc) + 200 yrs  AZ, CG, RM, B (guarded), CB, LP, JK, JAK          8
Multiple Eras               MM, W, DG, BF, C, VAG, M, BB, MAT, JZ, grim,     24
                            JL, FM, Kmbr, RM, J, CC, GWH, PW, Pug, WR, ER,
                            SMA, DJW
Don't tie timelines         H, RM, (CG-no), (B-no), CC, W, Pug, ER,      8Y, 2N
  together                  VAG, Max, DJW


BOOKS AND MAGAZINES

     a. Sourcebooks

Personalities of the        A, CW, LP, RM, DJW                                5
  Imperium
Imperial Navy               A, CW, SC                                         3
Imperial Scouts             EWF                                               1
Imperium Sourcebook         A, CW, SC, RM, MA, DB, PW, SMA                    8
Spinward Marches            A, CW, RM, SMA                                    4
Research Stations           RM                                                1
Trader Guidebook            PW                                                1
Exploration/Colonisation    SC, LP, SMA                                       3
Starports & Space Stations  SMA, AL, DJW                                      3
Robots, Cyborgs & Androids  MS, EWF                                           2
Book of Adventures          LP, EW, JZ, PW, DJW                               5
Finish Virus Redux series   EW, DJW                                           2
Equipment Guide             PW                                                1
Aliens                      Cy, DG, SC, EW, JZ, Kmbr, RM, PW, MS, EH, SMA,   12
                            BWF
Eras                        Kmbr, PW                                          2
Major Pocket Empires        EW                                                1
Atlas                       A                                                 1

     b. RPG Magazine

Increase distrib. of TTC    P, BJ, EW, DJW                                    4
New magazine                CW, M, EW, ER, EWF                                5


CD-ROM/SOFTWARE DISCUSSION

     a. General Approval

General concept             MM, R, L, S, C, P, BJ, A, Rog, ER, AZ, DJW       12

     b. Format

Adobe Acrobat               R, C, B                                           3
HTML                        C                                                 1
SGML                        C                                                 1
ASCII text                  C                                                 1

     c. Licencing

Sensible licencing          R, L, CG                                          3

     d. Shareware

Ref's Assisant-type         MM, P, BJ, Rog, CC, AZ, Kmbr, DJW                 8
  software (var.)
Games (include.             S, P, SMA, GOS                                    4
  Doom-style, simulation, RPG, tactical)
Char Gen                    CG, DJW                                           2
World/System Gen            CC, ER, JZ, CG, DJW                               5

     e. Rules

Basic Rules                    
Full Rules                  R, S, AZ                                          3
Craft Design                R, S, A, JZ, JN, DJW                              5

     f. Source Data

Library Data                S, C, AZ, CG, DJW                                 5
Software to manage user's   S                                                 1
  own data
Backgrounds                 S, AZ, CG                                         3
Atlas                       A, CW, SC, RM, DJW                                5


TRAVELLER ON THE NET

     a. Introductory material (teasers)

Basic Rules                 L, SMA, B, A, H, LP                               6
Backgrounds                 L, B, BJ, H, LP, CG                               6
Library Data                L, LP, CG                                         3
Short Adventures            L                                                 1

     b. Other

On-line Traveller (?)       MM                                                1
Beta-test rules via Net     JS                                                1
Shareware via the Net       CC                                                1
Online Net Game             GOS                                               1


MARKETING STUFF

Poster                      MM, CC, PW                                        3
T-Shirt                     MM, BJ, CC, PW, EWF                               5
Novels                      MM, C, PW                                         3
Trading Cards               MM, (BJ-no), (CC-no), H                      2Y, 2N
Posters, prints             MM, CC, PW                                        3
Comics, graphic novels      MM, C, CC                                         3
ID cards                    MM, EWF                                           2


OTHER

Get Back Tom Peters         MS, MM                                            1
Cardboard ships, tanks      MM                                                1
Figurines (plastic?)        LP                                                1
Contributors providing      RM, AZ                                            2
  Lib Data and news
  reports to MM


COMMENTS ON THE ABOVE STATS

     a. General (my personal comments - feel free to ignore)

Everyone expects the world of Marc - and there is *no way* he will be able to
please everyone. I hope that everyone involved is able to understand this.

I have never been happy with combat in Traveller. I am happiest with MT combat.
However, I'm an AD&D man, so feel free to ignore this ("Fireball, fireball,
lightning bolt! - is it dead yet?" - Andrew P. Madden).

As to backgrounds, no matter what comes out, as a *referee* I run my own
campaigns. These are loosely based on GDW's background, but are changed to
surprise the know-it-all players (eg. I ran my own version of the 5FW,
beginning it in late 1105, and allowing the PC's to zap the 40th at Fulacin...
etc.) I don't accept the supposed problem of "the Imperium is too big for the
PC's actions to have any effect" rubbish! Change things -- it is YOUR
campaign!. However, as a *collector*, I want to know about the "Empress Wave",
and possible alternates to the Rebellion aftermath -- etc. ("I want it all --
it's mine, I tell you mine, MINE! Bwah hah hah!!").

A background sourcebook on the Imperium could include sections on the Imperial
Navy, Nobility, etc.

     b. Subscriber Stats

          TML:       452 subscribers
          XBOAT:     357 subscribers
          TOTAL:     556 unique addresses (~250 people are on both lists)

     c. Summary

Discussion began in Digest 536, with largest posts being "wish lists". First
nasty comment occurred in 569. Slugfest started in Digest 575 and began to die
down by 593, when we returned to wish lists.

     d. Analysis Highlights

          i. General

EVERYONE wants new stuff to be properly proofread, quality-controlled etc (and
many have offered their services to this task, some suggesting to beta-test via
the Net). NO-ONE is unhappy that GDW has given control of Traveller to MM, BUT
everyone expects the world (should that be "the universe"?) from him. Good luck,
Marc.

          ii. Rules

CT/MT vs TNE is a BIG debate - it suggests that MM tread carefully and test the
water more. Having both simple and expanded Char Gen seems to be the way to go,
including more than the original 4 careers and possibly an aliens section. Task
Resolution is wanted, but type is undecided. Simpler combat than TNE appears
favoured. Expand world profiles, especially LawLvl and TL.

          iii. Design Rules

FF&S "Lite" (suggested first by M but named by J) seems to be a real winner -
both GearHeads and NGH's want this one. Many people liked FF&S (was this the
most populer TNE item? -- it seems so!), and most want to see it again. General
consensus is for a re-write, many wanting it to mesh better with Traveller's
background (many called to look at the GDW-Beta list for ideas AND for
computerised design sequences - especially as part of a CD-ROM). Many want BL
and BR kept, and asked for conversion rules.

          iv. Backgrounds, Books and Magazines

CT/MT vs TNE is STILL a big debate, evenly split, BUT multiple eras gets a big
thumbs-up. As for books it is a scattered reply, with "Aliens - Give Us
Anything!" and an Imperium Soucebook being the two front-runners.

          v. CD-ROM Discussion, Traveller on the Net

Many approved of the concept, but are undecided on the contents! World Gen,
Craft Design, Library Data, and an Atlas are the most favoured. Net Traveller
is favoured to garner interest in the product, more than as a serious full-on
venture.

          vi. Marketing stuff, Other

Luke-warm responses to the marketing ideas, maybe just because it is very low
on everyone's agenda.

P.S. This is NOT my normal Net address!! I'm using pine and a 1200-baud modem,
so found it hard to send this message from home.

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)

Library
Dept. of Social Security
Box 7788
Canberra Mail Centre ACT 2610


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #7
********************************

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Traveller-digest            Monday, 13 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 008

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Newbie allert!
         2. Re: Equations for projectiles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: mike foy <musashi@norfolk.infi.net>
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 01:23:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Newbie allert!

At 11:50 PM 5/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>At 11:35 AM 5/13/96 PDT, you wrote:
>>
>>G'day all!
>>
>>Since I am new to this list, I want to know the following...
>>
>>a) what topics have been done to death, so that I can avoid them.
>>b) what topics causes flame wars, again, so I can avoid.
>>c) the latest with NT.
>>d) is there ant 2300 fans out there?
>>
>>Darryl.
>>
>>
> Darryl: First things first, e-mail ad2300@mars.galstar.com with the text
>SUBscribe on the Subject heading and in the body of your e-mail message.
>This will get you onto the 2300 AD mailing list. Second, checkout the 2300AD
>Resource web page at http://www.ktb.net/~jayadan. Jay' page was worth paying
>for access to the net!
>This will hook you up with 2300 players all over the  Core.
> correction:http://www.ktb.net/~jaydan/2300ad.htm
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------  
>> ---------------------------------------------
>>Dadams@msmail.cuscal.com.au
>>The views represented here are the authors only and not of CUSCAL of 
>>Affiliated Credit Unions.
>>
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------  
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>
>
>

------------------------------

From: Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 09:32:13 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Re: Equations for projectiles

Anders Backman (anders.backman@macademic.se) wrote:
>I have not derived my formula from Rheinmetall, I have found that impulse
>per area is more accurate than energy per area when not limited to small
>arms.
Nope. In any formula I know, energy is more importend than mass. In
the Rheinmetall formula they have the same relation as in the
energy formula(the only diffference is, that mass is square-rooted
and energy goes linear instead of squared energy and linear mass)

>I agree that there is no accurate formula but the problem with the above
>one (used bt BTRC in 3G^3 as well) is that it fits well with smallarms but
>gives KEAP projs to much penetration. As small arms pen doesn't vary a lot
>my thinking is that it's more important to make the KEAP projs fit.
Using ^0.3 to ^0.4 will solve the problem. However, than You are very close
to the Rheinmetall formula. If Your assumptions where right the whole modern
method of using discarding sabots would be outright stupid, because to
accellerate the projectile You need ENERGY (i.e. m x v^2) but You would
get only (m x v). This would result in very long, very large(never smaller
than the bore) heavy projectiles with high mass and low velocity having the
best penetration with a given amount of gun powder.
But the realworld (tm) tendency is to produce small(smaller than the bore), 
but dense(that's good anyway), very fast projectiles.

Thomas Kathmann

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest            Tuesday, 14 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 009

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. re: WSeapon SPec.
         2. Re: TML: Combat Tactics in RPG fire fights
         3. Hard Times???
         4. RC Worlds:Eos
         5. Re: [T96#6, X96#4] TML/XTML Acronyms
         6. Re: Hard Times???
         7. Re: HEPlaR underwater
         8. Re: HEPlaR underwater
         9. [none]
        10. Re: Whither Traveller debate results
        11. Re: Equations for projectiles
        12. Re: Underwater drives 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: PBrenton@state.ma.us
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 9:30:02 -24000
Subject: re: WSeapon SPec.

I dont think the message is getting through here.

A few days ago someone posted a set of "levels" which modified combat weapon 
results.  

The question is how does one determine what level a specific character has 
attained?  I was thinking it was based on their skill (i.e. I = skill 0-2, 
..), but from subsequent messages I no longer think so.

So what's the scoop?  and what t2k book is it in?

Pete

------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 18:53:10 +0200
Subject: Re: TML: Combat Tactics in RPG fire fights

     For anyone who wants to learn a little about RW guns and firefights, I 
     would recommend the rec.guns FAQ, which lives at
     
         http://sal.cs.uiuc.edu/rec.guns
     
     I have found some of the video/book reviews to be very enlightening, 
     especially the one about Post Violent Event Trauma.  Before the "real" 
     roleplayers turn off (wadaya mean "too late" ;-)?), have you 
     considered how characters (PC or NPC) might react to their first 
     shoot-out?  The review mentions reactions such as joi-de-vivre ("I'm 
     alive, I'm alive!), social withdrawl  ("I've just killed someone, and 
     you want to play squash?"), even promiscuity (common with young 
     policemen who were virgins till they wed, apparently "I nearly died 
     and I haven't lived yet").  Whilst this might not be applicable for 
     the combat-monster PC, it provides ample roleplaying opportunity for 
     the group that only shoots/gets shot at once in a blue moon.
     
     Joel,
     I enjoyed reading your post.  I hope you get the chance to expand it 
     soon.  My objectives for refereeing a game where combat occurs are not 
     to provide an accurate simulation of ballistics, timing and terminal 
     ballistics (the polite way of describing the interaction between 
     bullet and soft tissue, ahem).  Instead, I would like to give players 
     the feel of being in a life-threatening situation through their 
     characters perceptions.  I don't think this can be achieved 
     exclusively through the rules, although I think the rules can be 
     slanted to help, but it requires a discussion of the subject as part 
     of the rules.
     
     I've got more to say on this subject, but I have to be somewhere soon 
     (yes some of us have a social life ;-)).
     
     Cheers,
     Liam
     
     -- 
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk
     BITS member

------------------------------

From: Lee Hutchinson <100737.1412@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 13 May 96 17:41:26 EDT
Subject: Hard Times???

Do any of the UK subscribers to this list have any idea where I can get a copy
of Hard Times.  I'm based in the Liverpool area and have tried every 2nd hand
games store you can think of.

Any help will be much appreiated.

Lee Hutchinson


------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 17:56:43 -0400
Subject: RC Worlds:Eos

	I just read the write up on Eos, and I like it.  I had been
thinking about a write up for Eos, but what you said was much better. 
I had been thinking about making Eos a hard line Centralist planet. 
Oriflamme by sheer numbers defines the moderate wing of the Centrists. 
Baldur seems a fairly moderate planet.  I think the RC needs some rabid
extremists.  I'll think about it more tonight, maybe Ra, or one of the
other planets which aren't full members yet.  
 
On another note, a while back I sent in a summary of all the worlds of
the Coalition.  Now that I have a write  up for Eos, and also I have
edited it and used the suggestions I received, its in its final? form. 
Its rather big, and rather than sending it to the TML again, if you
want a new and improved copy just send me note and I'll send it out later this week.

Lewis

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 18:08:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#6, X96#4] TML/XTML Acronyms

T::>RC: Regency Coalition?

 Reformation Coalition.

T::>RCES : AAARG. I'VE FORGOTTEN.  PLEASE INFORM.

 RC Exploratory/Exploration Service

T::>RICE: PLEASE INFORM.

 Regency Institute for Cultural Education

T::>RICE paper: PLEASE INFORM.

 A document on some aspect of Regency culture, published under the
 auspices of RICE.

T::>WTH : World Tamer's Handbook.  A world exploration supplement by DGP.

 GDW, not DGP.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 þ OLXWin 1.00b þ Chief Archivist, Regency Institute for Cultural Education


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@worldweb.net>
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 19:03:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Hard Times???

Lee:  Try the Sword of the Knight Pubs WWW page (If you search on Traveller
you'll find it) - they do a pretty good business in 2nd hand Traveller goods
and have a current catalog downloadable from their web page.  Hope this
helps! - Bill  PS - If you aren't web-capable, reply and I'll download,
attach it, and reply to you...

At 05:41 PM 5/13/96 EDT, you wrote:
>Do any of the UK subscribers to this list have any idea where I can get a copy
>of Hard Times.  I'm based in the Liverpool area and have tried every 2nd hand
>games store you can think of.
>
>Any help will be much appreiated.
>
>Lee Hutchinson
>
>


------------------------------

From: "Brendan O'Donovan" <Brendan@odonovan.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 12 May 1996 21:00:11 GMT
Subject: Re: HEPlaR underwater

Dave Golden wrote :

>         If you're going for concealability, an MHD is a great big "sink me"
> sign. Look at one of the premier subhunting aircraft, the P3 Orion. That big
> boom sticking out the back is a Magnetic Anomaly Detector, and it works by
> detecting the minute disturbances the sub causes in the Earth's magnetic
> field. And that's just the passive effects of a large metal object in the
> water. Now you want to put these powerful magnetic fields in there? Go for
> it! You be the defender, I'll be the attacker!
______________________________________________________________
>    Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
>    goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

Impressive technology, I had no idea about this, but there may be a few 
differences for starships hiding compared to subs

- - Range. Even with techonological advances, it would probably be difficult to 
do this kind of scan from more than one or two BL hexes out. 

- - Depth. With the armour of a typical SDB it could hide much deeper than a 
modern sub - this might make it harder to spot?

- - Also, the drives would only be necessary to actually move the SDB into place, 
once it was in position it could just sit and wait. It wouldn't even be 
necessary to use the drive to surface, as turning on the contra grav and 
pumping water out of the tanks could produce a significant upthrust.

Hiding underwater probably still makes sense.
- - (Assuming magnetic scanners are short ranged) it hides you from long range 
scanners.
- - It makes you largely immune to lasers, particle accelerators, and 
conventional missiles (the laser communicator for the guidance wouldn't work 
underwater, even if it didn't burn up on re-entry or detonate on impact with 
the water)
- - You can still fire back with missiles and meson guns. 

An advantage for the defender even with magnetic scanners, I think...
- -- 
Brendan 

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 18:35:03 -0600
Subject: Re: HEPlaR underwater

At 09:00 pm 5/12/96 GMT, you wrote:
>>         If you're going for concealability, an MHD is a great big "sink me"
>> sign. Look at one of the premier subhunting aircraft, the P3 Orion. That big
>> boom sticking out the back is a Magnetic Anomaly Detector, and it works by
>> detecting the minute disturbances the sub causes in the Earth's magnetic
>> field. And that's just the passive effects of a large metal object in the
>> water. Now you want to put these powerful magnetic fields in there? Go for
>> it! You be the defender, I'll be the attacker!

>Impressive technology, I had no idea about this, but there may be a few 
>differences for starships hiding compared to subs
>
>- Range. Even with techonological advances, it would probably be difficult to 
>do this kind of scan from more than one or two BL hexes out. 

        Agreed. I believe the P3 has to be flying at a few hundred feet to
have a chance of detecting a shallow sub. Perhaps there are some Navy types
on the list who can come up with a few (unclassified) numbers?

>- Depth. With the armour of a typical SDB it could hide much deeper than a 
>modern sub - this might make it harder to spot?

        Everybody seems to think spacecraft hulls are automatically stressed
to handle high pressures, but I'm not so sure. They're intended to (a)
resist stresses cause by approx 1 atm pushing _out_, not 100 atm pushing
_in_, and (b) survive _localized_ impacts (particles, weapons, etc.).
They're not built for the structural stresses of deep submergence.
        Of course, now we get into the argument of "holy canon," which says
1 atm internal and 100 atm external produce the same stresses. And I'll
admit, it makes a great idea at first blush, and most referees will
(rightly) ignore the details for the game's sake.

>- Also, the drives would only be necessary to actually move the SDB into
place, 
>once it was in position it could just sit and wait. It wouldn't even be 
>necessary to use the drive to surface, as turning on the contra grav and 
>pumping water out of the tanks could produce a significant upthrust.

        True too -- as long as you don't move around.

>Hiding underwater probably still makes sense.

        I agree ... but I was just pointing out there are better ideas for
underwater propulsion than MHD. Ducted fans, MT's thruster plates, gravitic
or repulsor tunnels, etc.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

From: uucp@uu2.psi.com
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Subject: UUCP job killed
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The job was
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>From traveller@mpgn.com  Sat Apr 13 21:31:03 1996
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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 657
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 657

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Can't we all just get along?
	by Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
  2) Re: TRAVELLER digest 656
	by Paragon369@aol.com
  3) Fifth Frontier War
	by granthh@anubis.network.com (Harley Grantham)
  4) Re: Can't we all just get along?
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Apr 1996 21:18:14 -0800
From: Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Can't we all just get along?
Message-ID: <316F3916.206E@concentric.net>

>>We must co-operate. It's not the same any more. We're not slagging a new edition
of the game we all (more or less) love. We're toying with the extirpiration of
that game in toto.<<

All too true.  If we don't support the new Traveller, folks, there ain't gonna _be_ a 
Traveller anymore.  Let's stick together and give it a fair shake, or T4 will be the game's 
swan song.

- --Chris

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 03:20:05 -0400
From: Paragon369@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 656
Message-ID: <960413032004_468853749@emout09.mail.aol.com>

<< Options:
1. Leave Traveller and Xboat alone, create new mailing list 
    for New Traveller.
2. Leave lists as are, but discuss New Traveller on Xboat.
3. Leave lists as are, but discuss New Traveller on Traveller.
4. Leave lists as are, and discuss New Traveller on either/both.
5. Create single list for all game versions.
6. Create several lists divided by topic, such as technology, 
    history, rules, etc.
7. Create new list for TNE, discuss New Traveller on Traveller, 
    and leave Xboat for CT/MT.
8. Other (please specify). >>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------
As I see it, there's going to be a wide variety of Traveller topics
and discussions that are going to 'spin-off' with the creation of
the new game.  This is a fact that's shown itself to be true with
the advent of MegaTraveller and then The New Era.   There's no
reason it shouldn't happen again and many reasons that it 
should happen, especially NOW!

This is a very different situation that the second and third 
'incarnations' of Traveller.  They were re-vamps of the original
game system.  This time, they're doing it right and creating
and entirely new game system while using the 'skeleton' of
the Classic Traveller as a framework and adding various 
useful 'organs' gleened from sources that have shown true
value over the years.  This very concept lends itself to a
massive amount of debat on a wide variety of topics.

For this reason, I suggest a version of option #6.

There needs to INITIALLY be a place for all aspects of the 
gaming system to be ironed out.  There just isn't enough
room for everything to be done in a couple of publications
and on a timely basis.  With a multiplicity of lists, we could
attack each problem individually and deal with them.  Then,
when the interest in any one list wained, it could be dis-
continued with no problem.

There... do I make sense??

Thanks....


------------------------------

From: library@babylon5.dss.gov.au (DSS Library)
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 13:12:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Whither Traveller debate results

Dear Folks -

If you have any direct mail for me, please send it to:
        nkelly@pcug.org.au

Please DO NOT reply to the DSS Library, because this is not my
normal mailing address!. I don't check the mail at this site - I only
used it to send the messages rather than uploading via my (humble)
1200-baud modem.

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
Library
Dept. of Social Security
Box 7788
Canberra Mail Centre ACT 2610


------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 09:25:51 +0000
Subject: Re: Equations for projectiles

>But the realworld (tm) tendency is to produce small(smaller than the bore),
>but dense(that's good anyway), very fast projectiles.
>
>Thomas Kathmann
The reason for sabot rounds is simply:
Given a set muzzle velocity ie energy it is better to put a given mass in
as small as possible surface area. This has nothing to do with pen being
m x v / (cal^2) or m x v^2 /(cal ^2).
If pen was prop to energy and not impulse it wouldn't matter what mass the
projectile had as the proj would have the same energy no matter what.
This is nitpicking (from my part at least) and we should probably move this
to e-mail to stop bothering other listoids.

PS I think that my formula is more accurate when proj speeds approaches
soundspeed in armour and your when proj speed is considerably lower like
small arms. Also for very low speed projs like thrown knifes et c your
formula is way off DS

/Backman



------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 09:35:50 +0000
Subject: Re: Underwater drives 

>IMHO something generating heat like the starship drive would be too obvious.
>Ok you say, im not going to be under water for too long, lets do a cold
>start.

One BIG problem with discussions about sensors in Traveller is that
everybody seems to think that rules of thumb of todays sensors translate to
the future.
For instance using radars at the ranges used in BL & BR is a nobrainer.
Passive sensors diminish at 1/(r^2) while active diminish at 1/(r^4) ie
radars are useless in spacecombat, not only because telling the enemy where
you are.
Another problem is that whenneutrino sensors are available you cannot hide
anymore. No fusion powered stealthy submarines anymore. The only way to
hide a fusion plant is (I think) with the sun at your back. When practical
neutrino sensors are available there could of course be possible to shield
neutrinos as well.

/Backman



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #9
********************************

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Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #10
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Traveller-digest           Wednesday, 15 May 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 010

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Traveller Alien Word Generation Pgm
         2. Re: HEPlaR underwater
         3. Weapon Specialization
         4. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #9
         5. TNE Pocket Emp.: Voskl Trade Alliance - info?
         6. FW: Underwater drives
         7. [none]
         8. Re: Weapon Specialization

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Vaclav Ujcik <v.ujcik.cfi@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 14:43:17 GMT
Subject: Traveller Alien Word Generation Pgm

Goran informs me that my program is now available at his web site for
downloading. Apologies to Mac and DOS users, but this is a Windows program!
Comments are welcom at the address shown below. Enjoy!
Vaclav G. "Jim" Ujcik
Certified Flight Instructor
Amateur: WD9HBC/4
Homepage: http://ourworld.compuserve.com:80/homepages/VUjcikCFI/
Email: v.ujcik.cfi@worldnet.att.net

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 17:16:45 GMT
Subject: Re: HEPlaR underwater

On Mon, 13 May 1996 18:35:03 -0600, you wrote:

=>         Everybody seems to think spacecraft hulls are automatically stressed
=> to handle high pressures, but I'm not so sure. They're intended to (a)
=> resist stresses cause by approx 1 atm pushing _out_, not 100 atm pushing
=> _in_, and (b) survive _localized_ impacts (particles, weapons, etc.).
=> They're not built for the structural stresses of deep submergence.

Ah, but the turbulant atmospheres of gas giants are supposed to create similar
pressures (and don't find yourself within the actual _liquid_ hydrogen of a gas
giant or you'll be facing pressures in excess of 3,000,000 ATMs!).  Does anyone
out there have any figures or formulae for determining Atmospheric pressures at
different depths?

Part of the concept behind SDBs is that they *begin* hidden under water and
you're not supposed to have even the faintest idea where to start looking.  If
you want to go hunting SDBs, you'll have a LOT of surface area to cover (trivia
question: how long would it take a P-3 Orion to do one sweep over the entire
hydrosphere of a planet identical to ours?).  The SDB wouldn't have to hide
itself *that* well, relying instead on the shear unlikelyhood of their location
being the starting point of a search attempt.  SDBs might even make use of
underwater caves and revines to shield themselves.

jlindsay@direct.ca        Vancouver, British Columbia

Did you here that Oprah got arrested for transporting
narcotics? They found 20 lbs of "crack" in her pants.

------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 10:30:42 -0800
Subject: Weapon Specialization

>I dont think the message is getting through here.
>
>A few days ago someone posted a set of "levels" which modified combat weapon
>results.
>
>The question is how does one determine what level a specific character has
>attained?  I was thinking it was based on their skill (i.e. I = skill 0-2,
>..), but from subsequent messages I no longer think so.
>
>So what's the scoop?  and what t2k book is it in?
>
>Pete

The weapon specialization is TOTALLY unrelated to your weapon skill LEVEL.

Specialization makes your skill more usefull at any level that it is
possessed, and requires IIRC a minimum of level 1 in the weapon skill, but
a person with a skill of 1/2 could be level III specialized (Why bother,
though), and specializations are not able to be gained during CGen, only
during play, via Experience Points

The Source for this nifty (anf oft misunderstood) rule is T2K's d20 upgrade
booklet, which appeared (in my experience) only in the Referee's Screen for
T2K.

Again, specializations are BOUGHT SEPARATELY.

William F. Hostman

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 20:16 BST-1
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #9

In-Reply-To: <199605141200.IAA04680@NS.MPGN.COM>

AAARGH!

Whatever's ****ing up and including entire previous TMLs, *STOP IT!*

                      --------=====OOO=====--------
Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."

------------------------------

From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 00:34:52 +0000
Subject: TNE Pocket Emp.: Voskl Trade Alliance - info?

Hi,

the title says it all. I came across a reference to a New Era Pocket Empire 
in subsector D of the Old Expanses caled the 'Voskl Trade Alliance' - does
anyone have any info on these, apart from the UPP's which I already have.

Thanks,

Eamon Watters.

------------------------------

From: DARYL ADAMS <Dadams@msmail.cuscal.com.au>
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 12:26:00 PDT
Subject: FW: Underwater drives

>>IMHO something generating heat like the starship drive would be too 
obvious.
>>Ok you say, im not going to be under water for too long, lets do a cold
>>start.

At the next tech level to ours(TL8), anything underwater would show up in an 
orbital sweep, either fixed instalation, or a spaceship in orbit. And 
spaceships produce a lot of heat, even with its reactor off. Like a desil 
sub today, body heat from the crew, machinery, electrical radiation and 
secondary engines show up on a heat scan.
Eithen the metal will affect the magnetic fields, as noted in the origanal 
part of the thread.

Space is a better place to hide. Its bigger for one, and heat dissapation 
would be hidden better.


>One BIG problem with discussions about sensors in Traveller is that
>everybody seems to think that rules of thumb of todays sensors translate to
>the future.

True. But its makes role playing easier if people have a common reference. 
But I know radar techs tell me that something I was running was blatently 
wrong, even though I justifed it to the way I percieved technolagy to 
behave. Its a compramise, realism and the 'wow' technology.

>For instance using radars at the ranges used in BL & BR is a nobrainer.
>Passive sensors diminish at 1/(r^2) while active diminish at 1/(r^4) ie
>radars are useless in spacecombat, not only because telling the enemy where
>you are.

Why? Surely drones or small ships can give radar infomation without 
revealing locations of main ships. Otherwise, all those Hawkeyes on Carriers 
today must be a waste of space.

>Another problem is that whenneutrino sensors are available you cannot hide
>anymore. No fusion powered stealthy submarines anymore. The only way to
>hide a fusion plant is (I think) with the sun at your back. When practical
>neutrino sensors are available there could of course be possible to shield
>neutrinos as well.

Black globes. No radiation in, no radiation out. Ultimate stealth fields.

Darryl



------------------------------

From: uucp@uu2.psi.com
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 23:05:50 -0400
Subject: [none]

Subject: UUCP job killed
To: traveller@mpgn.com

Message from UUCP on uupsi2 Tue May 14 23:05:49 1996

UUCP job
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for system
	bnf
requested by
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has been killed.


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The job was
	rmail mwhalley
>From traveller@mpgn.com  Sun Apr 14 21:33:06 1996
Received: from Ambassador.MPGN.COM by uu2.psi.com (5.65b/4.0.940727-PSI/PSINet) via SMTP;
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Originator: traveller@mpgn.com
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From: traveller@MPGN.COM
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: TRAVELLER digest 658
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 658

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: New List Discussion
	by David Burden <david@innocom.demon.co.uk>
  2) Re: Fifth Frontier War
	by muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (John Kovalic)
  3) Re: New List Discussion
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
  4) TL pricing
	by Per Bernhardsson <bard@ludd.luth.se>
  5) Re: TRAVELLER digest 657
	by "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
  6) Re: Fifth Frontier War
	by nicklaw@cix.compulink.co.uk (Nicholas Law)
  7) Re: TRAVELLER digest 657
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  8) Re: New List Discussion
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  9) List options, etc
	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
 10) Survey on Future of TML/XTML (Reprise)
	by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
 11) Re: New Traveller: Buy it or die!
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 05:03:37 GMT
From: David Burden <david@innocom.demon.co.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: New List Discussion
Message-ID: <31702276.2095114@post.demon.co.uk>

Just a thought ( he says donning his Battledress ) but why don't we
finally get a Traveller newsgroup set up. It would certainly make
thread following a lot easier ( my biggest gripe with the current
lists ). I can understand that in the past a mailing list was probably
the only way to bring in people on the proprietary networks, but now
that they all seem to be providing Internet access is this still a
problem? If it is then I know that you can have combined
list/newsgroups.

Thoughts??

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
David Burden, Birmingham, UK
Home: http://www.ftech.net/~innocom  Email: david@innocom.demon.co.uk 
Work: http://www.sts.co.uk           Email: david_burden@severntrent.co.uk
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------


- ------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 09:42:11 -0500
From: muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com (John Kovalic)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Fifth Frontier War
Message-ID: <199604141442.JAA23283@fullfeed.msn.fullfeed.com>


>Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 14:27:35 -0500 (CDT)
>From: granthh@anubis.network.com (Harley Grantham)
>To: xboat@MPGN.COM, traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: Fifth Frontier War
>Message-ID: <9604131927.AA11243@anubis.network.com>
>
>Hi all!
>
>I picked up a used copy of Fifth Frontier War and two counters are missing.
>
>Could someone please tell me the names and numbers on the following counters:
>
>Imperial Admiral #1
>
>Vargyr Admiral #1
>
>Thanks,
>
>--
>Harley Grantham                                 granthh@anubis.network.com


------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Tue, 14 May 1996 22:17:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Weapon Specialization

 Ah, that makes sense.. Thanks :)

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #10
*********************************

To subscribe to Traveller-Digest, send the command:

subscribe traveller-digest

in the body of a message to "Majordomo@MPGN.COM".  If you want
to subscribe something other than the account the mail is coming from,
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A non-digest (direct mail) version of this list is also available; to
subscribe to that instead, replace all instances of "traveller-digest"
in the commands above with "traveller".
Traveller-digest           Thursday, 16 May 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 011

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: What's with the chunks of old lists?
         2. Odd Bounces
         3. Re: FW: Underwater drives
         4. sensors
         5. Rubber Mail in TML (Observations)
         6. [WWW] Alien planet generator
         7. Interesting Web Site
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #10
         9. Re: FW: Underwater drives
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #8
        11. Re: FW: Underwater drives
        12. FW: Traveller-digest V1996 #8
        13. FW: FW: Underwater drives
        14. WANTED
        15. P3 Orions and finding SDBs...geez.
        16. [none]
        17. WWW page revisions
        18. Maximum range for TELEPATHY ?
        19. Re: P3 Orions and finding SDBs...geez.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 09:50:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: What's with the chunks of old lists?

Hi All.  Is everyone else getting digests where the seventh or so message 
is a chunk of an old digest?  Or is it just me?  Either way, what's going 
on here?  What I'm getting is a "post" with no subject heading which 
contains some "your mail could not be delivered" errors and the first few 
pages of an old-style TML or XTML digest.  This usually appears somewhere 
near the bottom of the latest digest, but before the last "real" post.

What gives?  

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:10:04 -0400
Subject: Odd Bounces

Ok, I have only seen one example of the errors that have been reported.  It appears to be a bounce from a site that we unsubscribed as soon as the bounce happened.  It looks like the site has several days of digests queued up for the bouncy site.  Hopefully these will clear in a day or so.

Rob
- --
Rob Miracle
TanSoft.com
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 16:07:22 GMT
Subject: Re: FW: Underwater drives

On Wed, 15 May 96 12:26:00 PDT, you wrote:

=> Space is a better place to hide. Its bigger for one, and heat dissapation 
=> would be hidden better.

But how do you dissipate heat in space?  Since space is a near-vacuum, there is
nothing to transfer the unwanted heat TO.  Some of the heat naturally radiates
as infra-red but heat build-up on spacecraft is still a big issue.  One possible
way today would be to transfer the heat to the excess water vapour produced by
the burning of hydrogen and oxygen aboard the spacecraft, and ejecting the
matter (along with the stored heat) out into space.

=> >Another problem is that whenneutrino sensors are available you cannot hide
=> >anymore. No fusion powered stealthy submarines anymore. The only way to
=> >hide a fusion plant is (I think) with the sun at your back. When practical
=> >neutrino sensors are available there could of course be possible to shield
=> >neutrinos as well.
=> 
=> Black globes. No radiation in, no radiation out. Ultimate stealth fields.

Except Black Globes wouldn't help a hiding ship for long because it would never
know if searching vessels had left the area  8-)

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 19:19:46 PST
Subject: sensors

I see we are back to arguing about sensors. I'm going to throw in my 2
cents worth.

Sure, neutrino sensors will make fusion reactors stand out. So what?
Fusion is merely the most *convenient* power source. Fission reactors
produce neutrinos, but if I recall correctly, they produce *anti*-
neutrinos, while fusion produces neutrinos. That makes a *big*
difference in detection. It's quite likely that sensors will have to be
"tuned" for one or the other.

Energy spectrum makes a difference too. High energy neutrinos are going
to be harder to detect than low energy ones.

So, fission plants are one possibility. Finding a way to "tune" the
energy level of the neutrino output may or may not be possible. Ditto
for shielding. Either of the last two could be considered as "partially
stealthed" fusion reactors. (Ie costs more, but harder to detect)

But there are still a lot of *completely* stealthy power sources (at
least as far as neutrino emissions are concerned). Since we are talking
about "submarines" the first idea that springs to mind is batteries. As
I recall, Traveller has some *damn* good batteries.

So, the ship can have a *huge* battery bank. That lets it have life
support for a *long* time, move slowly, and even fire missiles or other
"low power" weapons. For moving quickly or firing heavy weapons, you
kick in the fusion plant, fire and *move*, then kill the fusion plant
and make a course change while continuing on batteries (which got a
fast recharge while the reactor was up).

For things like deep meson sites, or even just seabottom bases,
geothermal power is *more* than adequate. Drill a shaft deep into the
crust and use the temperature differential to generate power. You'll
just look like another undersea volcano. 

If you are a deep site, you use the temp differential between different
parts of the crust or between the crust and mantle. This generates less
power per unit area, but you can build *big*. And the miles of rock
above will effectively eliminate any thermal signature. 

Heck, it might even be possible to generate power from the currents of
molten rock in the magma. Now *that* would be a power plant. Low speed,
but *very* high mass flow. 

However, all is not good news. There's a *much* under rated sensor that
is going to make SDBs hiding in oceans *or* gas giants very vulnerable.
The mass detector.

Even with the crude units we have now we can easily forsee being able
to detect the *major* density discontinuties represents by a ship in
water or a gas giant's atmosphere.

I understand the US Navy has been *very* interested in mass detectors.
Of course, any improvements they've come up with are classified. 

Oh yeah, it's vitually certain that *however* CG works, it'll stick out
like a sore thumb on a mass detector. Thruster plates may or may not.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 10:02:32 -0800
Subject: Rubber Mail in TML (Observations)

It would appear that the problem is "mwhalley" is not a valid address at
uu2.psi.com, and it's holding old messages, then kicking them back
(partials) to the "sender". This would appear to be entirely done by the
mailer daemon, not some malicious user. Now, if the list manager would do
something about it....

It should go away soon, as mail is no longer sent by the account name we
drop mail to....

William F. Hostman

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 13:25:43 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [WWW] Alien planet generator

When I was perusing newsgroups the other night, I ran across this article,
which I thought might be of interest to Traveller fans.

I played with it a little bit, and it does look interesting...

It also has some links to interesting SF/hard SF sites and ideas.

> Anyone who wants physically realistic alien planets for scenarios might 
> want to look at my page. I wrote it from a physics rather than 
> role-playing background, so it may be rather technical for some, but the form
> based interface and the ability to make modifications to pre-defined examples
> should make it fairly easy to use.
> 
> URL http://www.compulink.co.uk/~vicarage/planets/
> 
> John
> 
> http://www.compulink.co.uk/~vicarage/

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 15:01 PDT
Subject: Interesting Web Site

http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/95fact/xx.html

It has an interesting format on a "World" fact breakdown.  It's part 
of the world factbook web site, this page is our "earth" broken down
into a whole plethora of interesting statistics...

I'm going to modify it to use as a frame work for elaborate world data.

If the list admin's say it's acceptable, I'll cut and paste as text
content, that page, but it's kinda long.

Joel
jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com
internet multimedia trials 
intel corporation
2111 ne 25th ave, m/s: jf2-74
Hillsboro, OR 97124
(503)264-3792

"My views, opinions, etc. do not necessarily reflect those of my company...
 etc. etc...."


------------------------------

From: whitman@wisenet.net (Ken Whitman)
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 18:26:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #10

Imperium Games web site.

Dear Traveller Fans;

Imperium Games has a web site.  Check us out at http://www.Imperiumgames.com/

Hope to see you there.

Ken Whitman
President/Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 17:25:59 -0600
Subject: Re: FW: Underwater drives

At 12:26 pm 5/15/96 PDT, DARYL ADAMS <Dadams@msmail.cuscal.com.au> wrote:
>spaceships produce a lot of heat, even with its reactor off. Like a desil 
>sub today, body heat from the crew, machinery, electrical radiation and 
>secondary engines show up on a heat scan.

/* snip */

>Black globes. No radiation in, no radiation out. Ultimate stealth fields.

        And thoroughly cooked crews? All that heat _has_ to go somewhere, so
the time you spend in a black globe is probably limited.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

From: whitman@wisenet.net (Ken Whitman)
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 18:28:44 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #8

If you guys are interested in an interview with Marc Miller or any of the
other designers. Let me know.

Ken Whitman



------------------------------

From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 17:21:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: FW: Underwater drives

On Wed, 15 May 1996, James Lindsay wrote:

> On Wed, 15 May 96 12:26:00 PDT, you wrote:
>
> => Space is a better place to hide. Its bigger for one, and heat dissapation
> => would be hidden better.
>
> But how do you dissipate heat in space?  Since space is a near-vacuum, there is
> nothing to transfer the unwanted heat TO.  Some of the heat naturally radiates
> as infra-red but heat build-up on spacecraft is still a big issue.  One possible
> way today would be to transfer the heat to the excess water vapour produced by
> the burning of hydrogen and oxygen aboard the spacecraft, and ejecting the
> matter (along with the stored heat) out into space.

It's called "black body radiation".  ANYTHING with a temperature (i.e. not
absolute 0) radiates thermal energy (read "light" or "elecromagnetic
radiation".  Practical proof: it gets warm during the day.  You feel
thermal energy that the sun radiates across the 92 million odd miles
of vacuum between us and it.  The weird/interesting thing about Black-Body
radiation, is that that it is completely dependant on the temperature of
the object, and completely independant of the material of which the
object is composed.

>
> => >Another problem is that whenneutrino sensors are available you cannot hide
> => >anymore. No fusion powered stealthy submarines anymore. The only way to
> => >hide a fusion plant is (I think) with the sun at your back. When practical
> => >neutrino sensors are available there could of course be possible to shield
> => >neutrinos as well.
> =>
> => Black globes. No radiation in, no radiation out. Ultimate stealth fields.
>
> Except Black Globes wouldn't help a hiding ship for long because it would never
> know if searching vessels had left the area  8-)
>

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: DARYL ADAMS <Dadams@msmail.cuscal.com.au>
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 10:21:00 PDT
Subject: FW: Traveller-digest V1996 #8

>If you guys are interested in an interview with Marc Miller or any of the
>other designers. Let me know.

>Ken Whitman

I for one would love to hear from Sir Marc and Greg Porter. You have my 
vote!

Darryl

dadams@msmail.cuscal.com.au



------------------------------

From: DARYL ADAMS <Dadams@msmail.cuscal.com.au>
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 10:21:00 PDT
Subject: FW: FW: Underwater drives

=> Space is a better place to hide. Its bigger for one, and heat dissapation 

=> would be hidden better.

>But how do you dissipate heat in space?  Since space is a near-vacuum, 
there
>is
>nothing to transfer the unwanted heat TO.  Some of the heat naturally 
radiates
>as infra-red but heat build-up on spacecraft is still a big issue.  One
>possible
>way today would be to transfer the heat to the excess water vapour produced 
by
>the burning of hydrogen and oxygen aboard the spacecraft, and ejecting the
>matter (along with the stored heat) out into space.

I was thinking heat convection, ie , the cold of space would "suck" the heat 
out. If this needs matter, then I am wrong. So be it.

Darryl Adams
dadams@msmail.cuscal.com.au


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 18:26:08 -0600
Subject: WANTED

WANTED: Assistant Web Master

Ever want to run your own web site, but been unable to because your provider
doesn't offer it, or you don't want to start from scratch? Here's your
opportunity!

Due to my current schedule (work and graduate studies), I've been falling
behind in keeping my Web pages up-to-date. I don't want to give them up, or
let them just sit there gathering dust. So, I'm looking for an assistant to
help out. You'll get paid same as me (i.e. nothing), but you will get full
credit. If you're interested, check out the site, and then e-mail me. Thanks!
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

From: AQLH90D@prodigy.com (MR JON G FULLER)
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 22:16:40, -0500
Subject: P3 Orions and finding SDBs...geez.

>Part of the concept behind SDBs is that they *begin* hidden under 
water and
>you're not supposed to have even the faintest idea where to start 
looking.  If
>you want to go hunting SDBs, you'll have a LOT of surface area to 
cover (trivia
>question: how long would it take a P-3 Orion to do one sweep over 
the entire
>hydrosphere of a planet identical to ours?).  The SDB wouldn't have 
to hide
>itself *that* well, relying instead on the shear unlikelyhood of 
their location
>being the starting point of a search attempt.  SDBs might even make 
use of
>underwater caves and revines to shield themselves.

I don't really see the point of finding out how long it would take a 
P-3 to do a sweep of the Earth's hydrosphere, or, for that matter, 
discussion of todays MADs [magnetic anomaly detectors] in the context 
of Traveller.  Traveller is set in the future -- according to canon, 
technology is going to get much better (reach farther, work faster, 
etc.).

Extrapolating optimistically, you can (I think) safely assume that 
anybody attacking on a planet that hides its SDBs in the first place 
will just hang about outside the atmosphere and use neutrino counts 
or something to find the little buggers. 

And, no.  IMHO, ravines and underwater caves won't stop anybody from 
finding them (sub-atomic particles tend to fly right thru rock and 
water).

Jon Fuller



------------------------------

From: uucp@uu2.psi.com
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 23:05:45 -0400
Subject: [none]

Subject: UUCP job killed
To: traveller@mpgn.com

Message from UUCP on uupsi2 Wed May 15 23:05:45 1996

UUCP job
	bnfCf32d
for system
	bnf
requested by
	daemon
has been killed.


=============================================================================
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=============================================================================


The job was
	rmail mwhalley
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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 659
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 659

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TL pricing	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  2) Traveller Newsgroup...Yuck!	by "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
  3) Survey: Option 6	by Paragon369@aol.com
  4) New Traveller	by Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
  5) Re: T4 name (was Arden)	by Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
  6) TML newsgroup??	by Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com>
  7) Lists and T4	by aramis@lunatic.ak.net (William F. Hostman)
  8) New Mailing Lists	by Ethan Henry <ehenry@magmacom.com>
  9) TML newsgroup??	by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 14 Apr 1996 22:15:26 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TL pricing
Message-ID: <9604150415.AA08782@Rt66.com>

 
> Once upon a time Phil McGregor wrote:
> 
> > I (and presumably *everyone* on this - and the sister - list) have been
> > complaining about this for *years*. But this opens the whole can of worms -
>> such a TL/15 version of a TL/12 computer would be *cheaper* as well. And that
> > brings up the whole problem of the severely disfunctional tech-economy
> > relationship in Traveller.
> 
> This effect might be explained by an example from our own time and world. How much would a 
>brand new 80286 processor cost today? They aren't made anymore, or if they are, they are 
>    much more expensive than the later newer processors. I think we can safely assume that same 
>   relationship will affect the prices in the future too. Another example: How much did ENIAC 
> cost?
> 
> > Phil McGregor
> 
>  / Per

I think that you miss Phil's point.  Sure, we can't/don't make 286s
anymore, but take your generic $1000+ XT clone from that era.  OK, how
much does it cost to make a computer that meets the same benchmarks
(speed, memory, etc.?)  I bet a Newton can out perform the XT gathering
dust in my shed, and it's maybe 1/2 a kilo and the size of an
addressbook.  It is also somewhat cheaper.

Since the tech in traveller is grouped by the specs it meets, that's
what you need to look at.

So why would we expect a computer manufacturer on a TL15 world to make
a computer (using TL15 tech) that has does a fraction of what their top
of the line does, but takes up much more room?  At the very least you
could allow that even if it were the same price as it would be at TL12,
it should at least be the smaller size at all times if made at a higher
TL.

- -Merrick

- ------------------------------

Date:          Sun, 14 Apr 1996 21:42:41 -0800
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Traveller Newsgroup...Yuck!
Message-ID: <199604150438.VAA17620@goodguy.goodnet.com>

My Cr.02 on the subject of newsgroups and mailing lists...

I'll set them up, somebody else can knock them down.

1)  Newsgroup: NO, please a thousand times NO!!!!!!!!


------------------------------

From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 23:17:21 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: WWW page revisions

I've recently gone through and revised my WWW pages. For those who don't know,
I have an archive of a wide variety of Traveller items on those pages, 
fully indexed (for the text & html files). At one time I maintained an FTP
site, but since that had to be shut down, I moved the majority of the 
information into the web site.

http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/
- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 06:18:45 GMT
Subject: Maximum range for TELEPATHY ?

Can anyone tell me what the maximum possible range for Telepathy might be?  I
know Teleportation increases logarithmically, but could a POWERFUL telepath be
able to reach out across planets?  Across solar systems?  And if so, is there a
delay similar to light-speed communication over such distances or is Telepathy
considered *instantaneous* communication?

I've thought about introducing a lifeform made up of trillions of beings, all
linked telepathically and sharing a common hive mind (I had this idea long
before Virus came out and I'm sure others have thought of it as well).  Is the
Traveller universe too "hard-science" to make such a "being" possible?

jlindsay@direct.ca           Vancouver, British Columbia

Taz sez, "Ack! Icky plptht TAZ grunga yeek... PLPTHT!!!"

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 07:40:45 GMT
Subject: Re: P3 Orions and finding SDBs...geez.

On Wed, 15 May 1996 22:16:40, -0500, you wrote:

=> I don't really see the point of finding out how long it would take a 
=> P-3 to do a sweep of the Earth's hydrosphere, or, for that matter, 
=> discussion of todays MADs [magnetic anomaly detectors] in the context 
=> of Traveller.  Traveller is set in the future -- according to canon, 
=> technology is going to get much better (reach farther, work faster, 
=> etc.).

And pretty soon we'll all be living on the starship Enterprise, with sensors
that can relay data instantaneously from lightyears away but can't penetrate the
atmospheric disturbance in this week's episode  :-)

=> Extrapolating optimistically, you can (I think) safely assume that 
=> anybody attacking on a planet that hides its SDBs in the first place 
=> will just hang about outside the atmosphere and use neutrino counts 
=> or something to find the little buggers. 

Then we can also assume that stealth technology not necessarily covered by the
rules will also be available and improve on a similar scale.  Or we can say that
SDB stealth tactics simply don't exist and everyone stands out in the middle of
space gunports a-blazen'  :-)


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #11
*********************************

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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 16 May 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 012

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: FW: FW: Underwater drives
         2. Hiding in the WATER
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #8

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 07:40:43 GMT
Subject: Re: FW: FW: Underwater drives

On Thu, 16 May 96 10:21:00 PDT, you wrote:

=> I was thinking heat convection, ie , the cold of space would "suck" the heat 
=> out. If this needs matter, then I am wrong. So be it.

That was my point but I don't think it translated into words very well  8-)
Convection requires a moving air or fluid (eg: convection ovens) to transfer
heat from hot objects and carry it away.  Radiated heat (ie: IR) moves at the
speed of light, transferring its heat energy to objects which it collides with
(walls, dust, water vapour, etc.).

In all fairness, the few scattered hydrogen (etc.) atoms in a typical vacuum are
individually extremely HOT (something on the level of plasma).  But since there
are so few atoms in a particular volume of space, the temperature is "averaged"
down to a few degrees above absolute zero.

------------------------------

From: prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 03:31:36 -0500
Subject: Hiding in the WATER

>Space is a better place to hide. Its bigger for one, and heat dissapation 
>would be hidden better.
>

Nope, conduction is a much more effecient means of heat dissapation than
radiation.
NASA has problems figuring out how to keep their spacecraft cool.
I think the ocean would be a great place to hide.  Im a Navy helo driving type
looking to get into the ASW community, If you know where a sub is you can
find him 
without a doubt, The problem is where to look.  Same with SDB's


Tariq 


SDBs are 400 ton sandcaster grains anyway.
- ----------------------------------------------------
                 RASHID ENTERPRISES
  Providing Name Brand Products Wholesale and Retail
             "The New Way Business Is Done"

For more info contact us      Stay tuned for our
   prashid@gulf.net         CyberStore coming soon!!

- -----------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Paragon369@aol.com
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 05:40:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #8

In a message dated 96-05-15 19:51:31 EDT, you write:

<< 
If you guys are interested in an interview with Marc Miller or any of the
other designers. Let me know.

Ken Whitman
 >>
Consider this a heartfelt YES for an interview with anyone you can tackle!!!


------------------------------

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*********************************

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Traveller-digest            Friday, 17 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 013

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: interview
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #10
         3. Apology
         4. Idea for new RC Campaign.
         5. Re: interview
         6. [none]
         7. [none]
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #11
         9. Re: interview

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 08:14:17 -0500
Subject: Re: interview

>
>From: whitman@wisenet.net (Ken Whitman)
>Date: Wed, 15 May 1996 18:28:44 -0500
>
>If you guys are interested in an interview with Marc Miller or any of the
>other designers. Let me know.
>
>Ken Whitman
>

This would be incredible.  I deffinitely vote for this.

Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 08:57:09 -0600
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #10

At 06:26 pm 5/15/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Imperium Games web site.
>Imperium Games has a web site.  Check us out at http://www.Imperiumgames.com/

        I tried to check this out, and then send e-mail to the address
listed there. I keep getting the message back with the error "Exceeded the
maximum number of hops," so I thought I'd try passing my comment on to you.
If you're not an appropriate person for this, I apologise.

        Unfortunately, I can't comment on the page itself, because it's
virtually illegible. The dark blue text and the black background force me to
touch my nose to my monitor before I can make anything out, and my
eyesight's bad enough already.
        In fact, one of my pet peeves is Web sites that change
foreground/background colors. First of all, the original intent of HTML/Web
was to provide _content_, while letting the user's system determine the
_format_. Another reason it bothers me is too many people don't do it right
... if you change some of the colors, you _must_ change them all. Users may
have configured their browser to use your text color as their link color.
Now how are they supposed to tell the difference between normal text and a
link, if they're both the same color? And when you change the colors, you're
overriding the way _they want_ to see web pages.

        Just a few comments.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 09:24:31 -0600
Subject: Apology

At 08:57 am 5/16/96 -0600, I wrote:
>At 06:26 pm 5/15/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>Imperium Games web site.
>>Imperium Games has a web site.  Check us out at http://www.Imperiumgames.com/
>
>        I tried to check this out, and then send e-mail to the address

        Whoops! Humble apologies to all for a bonehead mistake like sending
private e-mail to the list ...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

  "Conscience is the inner voice that warns us somebody may be
  watching" -- H. L. Mencken


------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts)
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 13:15:30 -0400
Subject: Idea for new RC Campaign.

Hi,

I am going to start a new Traveller Campaign in the next couple of
weeks, its going to be set in the Reformation Coalition.  I thought
that would better with my players, who have never played Traveller
before. Anyway I was trying to come up with major plot to happen in
the background of the campaign. Here is what I came up with.

After the collapse, the Hivers started to wonder what to do with the 
humans.  After a long discussion period, which probably involved several
manipulations, the Hivers decided to help wolrds with a progressive
outlook expand.  The Hivers reasoned that this way the new human
empire would a good neighbor, rather than if a Xenophobic Empire
arose, and would eventually draw the Federation into a war.

Most Hivers agree with this, but not all.   Some feel that the 
Humans are too dangerous to be allowed to form any interstellar 
government at all.  Some thought that humans should be exterminated,
others thought that was a bit extreme, and humans just needed to 
be nudged into a more friendly form. This thought that the humans
should be absorbed into the Federation.  Others thought humans
should be kept primitive and not allowed to develop advanced technology.

These dissedent hivers have formed a Shadow Nest, which is a loose
network of Hivers. About 20 Manipulators, several hundred normal
hivers.  Some are secretly working inside of the Reformation Coalition,
others have secret bases int eh Wilds where they plot doom for the
humans.  Others are working in the Federation to sabotage the Federation
plans to help the Coalition and othe rhuman worlds.  

The Shadow Nest has dozens of different plans going.  They sell
biological and nuclear weapons to low tech balkanized worlds, hoping
they will kill themselves off. One faction is trying to build up other
human pocket empires, and manipulating them into conflict with the 
RC, hoping that in the war, the humans will finish the job the Collapse
started.  Others are trying to genetically engineer humans into a more
acceptable form.  They manipulate the Coalition into engaging in violent
smash and grab missions which alienate the native population.  
The Shadow Nest will do anything which divides humans, kills large 
numbers of humans.

The Shadow Nest will be the major villian behind many of the adventures
I run in my campaign.  Its a bit a of the Illuminati, and hopefully will
make the players quite paranoid.  

So what do you think?  Does it sound reasonable, any ideas on how
to help the Shadow Nest destroy the humans? 

Lewis


------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 13:46:59 -0600
Subject: Re: interview

On 05/16/96 at 08:14 AM,  tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker) said:

>>If you guys are interested in an interview with Marc Miller or any of
>>other designers. Let me know.

>>Ken Whitman

>This would be incredible.  

Yes, it would!

>I deffinitely vote for this.

Me too.  I already posted to Ken directly expressing my thanks.
Wouldn't it be nice if several of the Imperium Games folks were
regular contributors to the lists!  At least were regular lurkers...or
*are* they already? <g>

BTW, how can we do an interview on a mailing list?

I suggested the interview take place on the Internet Relay Chat (IRC). 
Now that ImpGames has direct access to the net all they need to do is
set up an IRC client and post a time and channel.

I'd be there, wouldn't you? <g>

Eris

ps.  There isn't much on the web page yet, and it was hard to read
(dark blue writing with black background), but it's a *very* good
sign!

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Sablemane <HAYDENDJ@udavxb.oca.udayton.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 17:39:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe traveller-digest

------------------------------

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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 660
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			    TRAVELLER Digest 660

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) What I like about Traveller (all versions)
	by hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
  2) Re: Lists and T4
	by Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
  3) Re: TL pricing
	by t01bpa@abdn.ac.uk
  4) Re: TL pricing
	by PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
  5) Survey: Option 4
	by Mitch Schwartz <mitch@intersys.com>
  6) Re: A question regarding nuclear damper design.
	by Alvin Plummer <alvin.plummer@sheridanc.on.ca>
  7) Traveller Newsgroup
	by aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
  8) Re: [T658] List -> Newsgroup?
	by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 16 Mar 96 00:47:09 EST
From: hokido@primenet.com (Kenji Houston)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: What I like about Traveller (all versions)
Message-ID: <199604160554.WAA14284@usr4.primenet.com>

Classic Traveller: I liked its simplisity, an adventure could created and
modified 	Quickly. The Antebellum Period provided a stable enviorment to setup
	campains. The JTAS was a good source for adventure ideals and 	expermently
rules.
Mega Traveller: DGP's Task System can'nt be beat for its easy of use and
	flexiblity.
New Era Traveller: I am one of those wierd persons that liked it. The best thing
	about it, is you can design your own weapons. The idea of having 	different
campian settings was basicly sound. There was just no outside 	support. Though I
liked the Regency, I couldn't stand the Coalition. The 	whole setting was so
onesided. I would liked to have been the Tech Priest 	preventing the infidels
from violating the Oracle of Knowledge 	(9/fib c	omputer).




- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 09:50:34 +0200 (MET DST)
From: Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Lists and T4
Message-ID:  <9604160950.aa01293@poker.informatik.uni-kl.de>

aramis@lunatic.ak.net (William F. Hostman) wrote:

>A pc survived 4 shots from a PGMP-13 at ranges measured in centimeters; he
>dropped from initiative loss, and had no serious wounds at all, and was
>wearing 8pt combat armour. That was three sessions ago. Last session, we
>converted back to MT. I won't use GM's Fiat to kill a heroic PC, but should
>the system and weapons they know they're facing be sufficient, so be it! I
>was unable to kill PC's without resorting to GM's Fiat or unreasonable
>situations under TNE.

Sorry, but the pc was extremely lucky. If You don't roll an outstanding 
success You should interpret the shot as a near miss (for Plasma/Fusion guns)
or a bare hit(for bullet weapons) just touching the skin of the target.
And, as in reality, in TNE the most hits are of this type.(I have a table
about the percentage of people killed by bullets in WWII, and over 50%
survived HEAD shots. I know someone, who was hit by a bullet to the
head, the bullet travelled between his head and his helmet along his
upper head and left. There is still a visible scare, but he suffered just
a scratch wound from a head shot(something that almost never happens in
TNE). 

About the "You can't miss in point blank range". I know of an incident, 
where a soldier with a LATW missed a Tank at 5 metres, because he was 
so stunned by the gigantic mass of metal appearing just before him.
Another thing: If someone fires at true short range(ie below 2
metres or so) I rule an automatic outstanding success if the shot hits.
Also at this distance, weapons are usually pointed at the head. Also,
please don't cry if the system doesn't work if You ignore some rules
(ie sudden death). I can't understand it, You are saying
"Oh the pc's can't die suddenly in the TNE system, and we just removed

------------------------------

From: John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
Date: Thu, 16 May 1996 20:22:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #11

On Thu, 16 May 1996 James Lindsay wrote:
 
> => Space is a better place to hide. Its bigger for one, and heat dissapation 
> => would be hidden better.
> 
> But how do you dissipate heat in space?  Since space is a near-vacuum, there is
> nothing to transfer the unwanted heat TO.  Some of the heat naturally radiates
> as infra-red but heat build-up on spacecraft is still a big issue.  One possible
> way today would be to transfer the heat to the excess water vapour produced by
> the burning of hydrogen and oxygen aboard the spacecraft, and ejecting the
> matter (along with the stored heat) out into space.

	Most ships are powered by fusion which produces helium from 
hydrogen.  There's still no reason, as far as I can see, that the 
hydrogen used in HEPLAR thrusters couldn't be "pre-heated" by the excess 
heat on the ship and used to remove it.  This might even make the heplar 
thrusters marginally more efficient by using "waste" heat instead of 
reactor output to heat reaction mass.
 
Leonard Erickson said: 
<cool stuff about stealthy power sources snipped> 
> However, all is not good news. There's a *much* under rated sensor that
> is going to make SDBs hiding in oceans *or* gas giants very vulnerable.
> The mass detector.
> 
> Even with the crude units we have now we can easily forsee being able
> to detect the *major* density discontinuties represents by a ship in
> water or a gas giant's atmosphere.
> 
> I understand the US Navy has been *very* interested in mass detectors.
> Of course, any improvements they've come up with are classified. 
> 
> Oh yeah, it's vitually certain that *however* CG works, it'll stick out
> like a sore thumb on a mass detector. Thruster plates may or may not.

	Could you share some details about how these detectors work, or 
where I could find out about them?  Rely via email or the beta list if 
you like.  Thanks

- --Muir


------------------------------

From: mike foy <musashi@norfolk.infi.net>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 00:10:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: interview

At 01:46 PM 5/16/96 -0600, you wrote:
>
>On 05/16/96 at 08:14 AM,  tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker) said:
>
>>>If you guys are interested in an interview with Marc Miller or any of
>>>other designers. Let me know.
>
>>>Ken Whitman
>
>>This would be incredible.  
>
>Yes, it would!
>
>>I deffinitely vote for this.
>
>Me too.  I already posted to Ken directly expressing my thanks.
>Wouldn't it be nice if several of the Imperium Games folks were
>regular contributors to the lists!  At least were regular lurkers...or
>*are* they already? <g>
>
>BTW, how can we do an interview on a mailing list?
>
>I suggested the interview take place on the Internet Relay Chat (IRC). 
>Now that ImpGames has direct access to the net all they need to do is
>set up an IRC client and post a time and channel.
>
>I'd be there, wouldn't you? <g>
>
>Eris
>
>ps.  There isn't much on the web page yet, and it was hard to read
>(dark blue writing with black background), but it's a *very* good
>sign!
>
>Put my down, I'll vote twice, and throw in the graveyard vote! 
>Musashi
- -----------------------------------------------------------
>ereddoch@amaranth.com
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
The Foys
Mike, Patty and Becca

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #13
*********************************

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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 18 May 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 014

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: HEPlaR underwater
         2. Re: P3 Orions and finding SDBs...geez.
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #10
         4. Re: P3 Orions and finding SDBs...geez.
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #11
         6. IG Web Page, Hiver conspiracies, Traveller Character Generator
         7. Re: HEPlaR underwater
         8. Hardcover Traveller
         9. Re: IG Web Page, Hiver conspiracies, Traveller Character Generator
        10. Re: HEPlaR underwater
        11. Venting unwanted heat in a vacuum
        12. IG's WWW page, Interview with MM, etc.
        13. Well, well, well..It seems to be really happening
        14. Daemon
        15. [none]
        16. RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #11

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 14:14:17 +0100
Subject: Re: HEPlaR underwater

>Part of the concept behind SDBs is that they *begin* hidden under water and
>you're not supposed to have even the faintest idea where to start looking.

Turn on your neutrino sensor and there he is - unless he has powered down
his fusion plant.

/Backman



------------------------------

From: htp@dove.mtx.net.au (Henry Penninkilampi)
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 22:38:11 +0930
Subject: Re: P3 Orions and finding SDBs...geez.

Jon Fuller:

>I don't really see the point of finding out how long it would take a
>P-3 to do a sweep of the Earth's hydrosphere, or, for that matter,
>discussion of todays MADs [magnetic anomaly detectors] in the context
>of Traveller.  Traveller is set in the future -- according to canon,
>technology is going to get much better (reach farther, work faster,
>etc.).
>
>Extrapolating optimistically, you can (I think) safely assume that
>anybody attacking on a planet that hides its SDBs in the first place
>will just hang about outside the atmosphere and use neutrino counts
>or something to find the little buggers.
>
>And, no.  IMHO, ravines and underwater caves won't stop anybody from
>finding them (sub-atomic particles tend to fly right thru rock and
>water).

If you are going to extrapolate sensors, then you *must* extrapolate the
technologies developed specifically to defeat those sensors.  Apply
"Stealth Bomber" technology to high-tech submarines and you once again have
an extremely invisible and potent offensive asset at your disposal.

There is *no* sensor that cannot be defeated, given time.

Omniscience does not exist.

+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|               Henry Penninkilampi (htp@dove.mtx.net.au)                |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|Join "EvangeList", Guy Kawasaki's (un)official Apple list-server of good|
|news about Apple, Macintosh, and third-party developers. To subscribe to|
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+------------------------------------------------------------------------+



------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 14:18:09 +0100
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #10

>Why? Surely drones or small ships can give radar infomation without
>revealing locations of main ships. Otherwise, all those Hawkeyes on Carriers
>today must be a waste of space.

I repeat: Passive sensors diminish at 1/(r^2) while active diminish at 1/(r^4),
therefore they're pretty useless at the ranges used in BL, BR.

>Black globes. No radiation in, no radiation out. Ultimate stealth fields.
>
>Darryl

The Imperium cannot manufacture black globes and TNE shure cannot. How many
of those are there? Grandfather must've been really sloppy if he left a
large number of them laying around after wiping out his children.


/Backman



------------------------------

From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 14:46:37 +0100
Subject: Re: P3 Orions and finding SDBs...geez.

Henry Penninkilampi writes:
> If you are going to extrapolate sensors, then you *must* extrapolate the
> technologies developed specifically to defeat those sensors.  Apply
> "Stealth Bomber" technology to high-tech submarines and you once again have
> an extremely invisible and potent offensive asset at your disposal.
> 
> There is *no* sensor that cannot be defeated, given time.

Apply the Marconi radars on most French and some British ships and you
once again have an extreme waste of time and money.

For those unaware of the facts: the American military were apparently
rather upset when French frigates in the Gulf could see their
multi-million dollar stealth planes.

There is no "Stealth Technology" that can not be overcome, with a
little bit of thought.

			Chris.



------------------------------

From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 08:55:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #11

On Thu, 16 May 1996, John Muir Macpherson wrote:

> 	Most ships are powered by fusion which produces helium from
> hydrogen.  There's still no reason, as far as I can see, that the
> hydrogen used in HEPLAR thrusters couldn't be "pre-heated" by the excess
> heat on the ship and used to remove it.  This might even make the heplar
> thrusters marginally more efficient by using "waste" heat instead of
> reactor output to heat reaction mass.

Anyone looked at the amp in their car (provided you have a certain level
of power...)?  Are there any reasons anyone can think of that heat
"baffles" or sinks on the outer hull, made of a heat conducting materials,
of course, wouldn't work?  Sure you wouldn't want to use it if you were
trying to be on the stealthy side, but I see no reason that the increased
surface area provided wouldn't dissipate energy that much quicker.  It
certainly seems more efficient than trying to eject the heat by containing
it in waste particles.

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 16:42:23 +0100
Subject: IG Web Page, Hiver conspiracies, Traveller Character Generator

WEB PAGES

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> commented (accidentally to the list):
><snip>
>        Unfortunately, I can't comment on the page itself, because it's
>virtually illegible. The dark blue text and the black background...

If you're really desperate to see what's there and you can't easily change
colours interactively within your web browser then save the page to disk (in
"source", i.e. HTML format) and edit the TEXT="#000000" (in the first line
or two) to read TEXT="#FFFFFF".

It's just changing the RGB colour codes from black to white. Alternatively
if you just delete the TEXT option then you should probably get the standard
colour for your display. You can change the background colour too, etc. etc.

Needless to say I've sent my own comment to Imperium Games. I didn't get a
bounce or anything from the IG site, so I assume it got through ok.

TRAVELLER CHARACTER GENERATOR

I need to update the Traveller Character Generator program which I posted to
the ftp.engrg.uwo.ca site some years ago. The copy there was a beta test
version with a limited lifetime which has now expired; in order to avoid
anyone downloading the program and then finding they can't run it, I need to
update the copy.

So, who's administrating "sunbane"? Who do I need to contact? Please reply
directly to my e-mail address. Thanks.

THE HIVERS ARE HERE!

lewis@chara.gsu.edu (Lewis Roberts) then asks, about his "Idea for new RC
Campaign":

>So what do you think?  Does it sound reasonable, any ideas on how
>to help the Shadow Nest destroy the humans? 

Biological and nuclear weapons are overkill. Give the humans sharp flints
and you can still pretty much guarantee they'll try to wipe themselves out.
Plus this way the planet's left habitable for the Hivers and they get to
watch much longer bloodier wars, which they would probably find much more
interesting. ;-)

Yours, cynically,

Andy :-)


------------------------------

From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 09:04:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: HEPlaR underwater

On Fri, 17 May 1996, Anders Backman wrote:

> >Part of the concept behind SDBs is that they *begin* hidden under water and
> >you're not supposed to have even the faintest idea where to start looking.
>
> Turn on your neutrino sensor and there he is - unless he has powered down
> his fusion plant.
>
> /Backman

I don't know that neutrino sensors are all the're cracked up to be.
Granted, Traveller tech is different from earth tech, but currently,
neutrino sensors are VERY unweildy things (a couple of tons of chlorine in
a tank), and not very accurate at all.  We have only been able to detect
one third of the neutrinos that should be emitted by the sun, should it
function by fusion.  ...Which means: either the sun doesn't function by
fusion reaction (and that kind of throws a monkey wrench in everything),
OR, 2/3rds of fusion emitted neutrinos are VERY hard to detect.

Thoughts?  Remember we catch very few neutrinos.  If I recall correctly,
it takes about a cubic mile of pure lead to stop all neutrinos passing
through it.  And remember all of the fusion drives in Traveller (that I've
seen) produce a fraction of the power of the sun, and hence, a fraction of
the neutrinos.  Are there any Physicists/Astronomers out there that can
tell me if I am remembering correctly?

If so, it would take the instantaneous nature of detection out of neutrino
sensors.  It would then return to something along the lines of reading a
very good passive sonar array.

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 12:51:55 -0400
Subject: Hardcover Traveller

Check out Imperium Games homepage and go the the "Special Offers"
link.  They're offering a Hardcover version of the T4 rules for $30.00
+ $5.00 for shipping.  Hey, $35.00 for the hardcovered version (as
oppossed to $25.00 for the regular printing), what a bargain.  Plus,
they will be signed by Marc Miller himself.

I wouldn't be so excited, except here I am goofing off at work, I go
to the homepage, see that the links actually do connect somewhere now.
Check it out.  Call out of reflex; and I'm told I'm the first
customer!  Now am I a drooling fanboy or what!!!!! 8)

Anyway, I'll try to post something a tad more useful next time...

        --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 11:23:45 -0600
Subject: Re: IG Web Page, Hiver conspiracies, Traveller Character Generator

At 04:42 pm 5/17/96 +0100, you wrote:
>WEB PAGES
>
>"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> commented (accidentally to the list):
>><snip>
>>        Unfortunately, I can't comment on the page itself, because it's
>>virtually illegible. The dark blue text and the black background...
>
>If you're really desperate to see what's there and you can't easily change
>colours interactively within your web browser then save the page to disk (in
>"source", i.e. HTML format) and edit the TEXT="#000000" (in the first line
>or two) to read TEXT="#FFFFFF".

        Yeah, I was just to lazy to tell Netscape to override the colors.
Plus, there weren't any links anywhere, so no need to fiddle with it.

        Now I understand they've got a special offer on a hardcover version
of T4, signed by MM himself? That sounds really interesting, but I still
don't know if I'll blow my money on T4. I really want to see what it's like,
first. All I've heard depresses me more and more ... no detailed design
system, 70's era rules ...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 11:48:32 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: HEPlaR underwater

 
> Thoughts?  Remember we catch very few neutrinos.  If I recall correctly,
> it takes about a cubic mile of pure lead to stop all neutrinos passing
> through it.  And remember all of the fusion drives in Traveller (that I've
> seen) produce a fraction of the power of the sun, and hence, a fraction of
> the neutrinos.  Are there any Physicists/Astronomers out there that can
> tell me if I am remembering correctly?

Well, given strong/weak force control at higher TLs (dampers) it might
be possible to catch more neutrinos (maybe increase the cross section of
the detector with magic force control?)---then you'd use an array of
detectors to shield one in the middle so you could get some
directionality (since detectors of this type would be better shielding
than a few klicks of lead :).

Now, given a sensor that would actually fit in a ship, we could talk
about signal to noise ratios.  Since other than detectors, nothing
shields neutrinos well there would be a whole lot of noise from all
directions.  Add to this that if it is possible to shield a detector,
it's possible to shield a drive and the chances of useful neutrino
detectors drops a bunch.  If the drive is reactionless, then there isn't
even an open hole at the back---your PP is shielded by "detector" tech,
and you're invisible neutrino wise.  Or at least you get the emission to
the large background level.

I don't think they'd be very useful.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 18:52:31 GMT
Subject: Venting unwanted heat in a vacuum

On Fri, 17 May 1996 08:55:18 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

=> Anyone looked at the amp in their car (provided you have a certain level
=> of power...)?  Are there any reasons anyone can think of that heat
=> "baffles" or sinks on the outer hull, made of a heat conducting materials,
=> of course, wouldn't work?  Sure you wouldn't want to use it if you were
=> trying to be on the stealthy side, but I see no reason that the increased
=> surface area provided wouldn't dissipate energy that much quicker.  It
=> certainly seems more efficient than trying to eject the heat by containing
=> it in waste particles.

When I initially mentioned transferring heat away in waste particles (like water
vapour) I was commenting on how today's astronauts deal with heat build-up in a
vacuum.  Heat baffles such as you describe _would_ work quite well in an
atmosphere or under water but not in a vacuum.

There are three main ways to radiate heat away from an object.  One would be
direct Infra-Red radiation (eg: a light bulb).  The second is conduction,
involving direct contact with another object (eg: a soldering iron).  The third
is by way of convection (eg: the fins on a high-powered amplifier).

Convection is identical to conduction, except that the primary heat exchanger
(ie: water, air, etc.) is constantly moving.  Heat is transferred from the hot
internal components inside the object to the cooling fins (via conduction) and
the moving air draws away the waste heat.  Convection works best if their is a
large temperature difference between the air/water and the object being cooled.
If the air is already hot, it doesn't work nearly as well.  This is also true in
a vacuum, where there are very few particles to transmit this heat TO (and these
*individual* particles are already quite HOT).  Transferring the heat to
something that you are going to throw away anyway is one solution.  Radiation
fins are also a problem when it comes to streamlining a vessel.

IR detectors detect only radiated heat, either directly radiated from the target
object or from the radiating atmospheric particles that have been in contact
with the target (and absorbed some of its heat energy via conduction).

Think of it this way... after drinking a beer on a nice hot day, you can either
wait around all day to sweat it out of you or you can simply dump it as waste
particles.  The latter is obviously easier and more satisfying  8-)


jlindsay@direct.ca    Vancouver, British Columbia

"WIZARD PARKING ONLY"... All Others Will Be Toad.

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 14:59:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: IG's WWW page, Interview with MM, etc.

Hi All.  Well, I checked out the IG page, and they've changed the colors
to something more legible (thank you!).  It does look like it will be very
handy once it gets a little more developed.  One suggestion: provide a
list of links to other Trav web pages (Goeran's, Joe Heck's, Dave
Golden's, etc.). 

TO KEN:  An interview with MM or any of the rest of the IG staff would be
great!  I don't care if it's an email interview or IRC (I see advantages
to both).  I read the transcript of the the interview done on AOL and
found it a bit choatic before they went into Protocol mode, so I think a
"we all mail in questions and get responses the next day" email setup
would be fine. 

Happy Travellin',
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 13:19:48 MST7
Subject: Well, well, well..It seems to be really happening

	Wow, Ken and the others at ImperiumGames are moving fast...The first 
time I tried the web site, I was blocked, the next, a few hours later, 
had the page but no links.  This morning, everything was there.

	They also have a price list...a the basic book is $25, everything 
else is $20, and are scheduled for a book-a-month from August to Dec.

	Unfortunately for us FF&S fans out there, there seems to be no 
\design book, as both the Starships and Central Supply catalog seem 
to be compilations of designs, not designs themselves.

	Maybe if we ask really really nice, Imperium Games will put up 
excerpts from the books (Adobe Acrobat files would be nice, guys!) to 
give us a feel for what's in store. (Please please oh pretty please!)



Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: mike foy <musashi@norfolk.infi.net>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 17:44:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Daemon

I'm still not getting all of the digest. All I'm getting with each batch is
the first two items, with the second being cut-off in the middle! Every item
recieved has been gutted this way!

Musashi


------------------------------

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Subject: [none]

Subject: UUCP job killed
To: traveller@mpgn.com

Message from UUCP on uupsi2 Fri May 17 23:04:49 1996

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The job was
	rmail mwhalley
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To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: TRAVELLER digest 661
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 661

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 660
	by Paragon369@aol.com
  2) Re: A question regarding nuclear damper design.
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  3) Taking my list away
	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
  4) RE: TRAVELLER digest 660
	by ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
  5) reply to Thomas Kathmann
	by "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
  6) Re: Newsgroup vs Mailing list.
	by Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
  7) Burst fire in TNE - Difficulty levels
	by Poseidon <Dave.Robertson@newcastle.ac.uk>
  8) TL/price (long)
	by John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
  9) Re: Newsgroup vs Mailing list.
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
 10) RE: TRAVELLER digest 660
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:11:23 -0400
From: Paragon369@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 660
Message-ID: <960416231123_192614948@emout10.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 96-04-16 21:50:05 EDT, you write:

<< 
Actually, I'd prefer this to the list. If nothing else, it'd raise the
profile of Traveller, and bring in people who didn't know about the list
(we are rather exclusive).

- ---===---
Andrew Boulton >>

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------------------
A fairly obvious question presents itself.  

    Why not create a newsgroup AND keep the list going?

This may seem foolish and double effort on the part of all concerned, but
look at it this way.... Traveller has enjoyed a pretty good following in it's
years.... but game systems like D&D have been positively meteoric in their
growth.  Why?  As Andrew stated in his post, it's a matter of profile or
visibility... read that as good advertisement.....  The fantasy style games
have gotten good press over the years from various sources... but just how
much press have the sci-fi games gotten??  None that I can remember.... 
Maybe Andrew here is on to something that we should take a good hard look
at... maybe this is the wedge that our particular type of system needs to
slide into that sci-fi universe out there.... I wonder.... would Sci-Fi Buzz
on the Sci-Fi channel be interested in the New Traveller???   Couldn't hurt
to find out....  Marc?<g>

Russ


- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:15:21 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: henric.ahlrot@gdc.stud.gu.se
Subject: Re: A question regarding nuclear damper design.
Message-ID: <9604170515.AA15291@Rt66.com>

 
> > Greetings from Sweden. I am a relative newcommer to Traveller and I have a
> > question regarding the design and use of nuclear dampers. In the "Rules of
> > Play"-book in BL, on page 20-21, it is stated that "Nuclear damper turrets,
> > although relatively compact and inexpensive, are limited to firing on only
> > one missile per turn. Larger damper installations may conduct defensive
> > fire against all missiles that fire on the ship during the turn." My
> > question is about these "Larger damper installations...". Does the cited
> > statement indicate that a _single_ large internally mounted ND is able to

------------------------------

From: Eric Nolan <ericno@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Fri, 17 May 1996 06:50:50 -0700
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #11

>I think that you miss Phil's point.  Sure, we can't/don't make 286s
>anymore, but take your generic $1000+ XT clone from that era.  OK, how
>much does it cost to make a computer that meets the same benchmarks
>(speed, memory, etc.?)  I bet a Newton can out perform the XT gathering
>dust in my shed, and it's maybe 1/2 a kilo and the size of an
>addressbook.  It is also somewhat cheaper.

Ah, but extend the example a bit further - if I want to run Digger (a
favourite game from my college years) I need an XT/AT with CGA graphics,
or a very close copy.  Nothing else will do.  A Newton, a P6 or an Alpha
will not run Digger for me.
Now say I need Digger to run my reactor or my navigation systems, I'm in
some trouble.  I'm going to have to either go from garage sale to garage
sale until someone sells me their decaying old hardware or I'm going to
have to have once-off, custom hardware or software produced for me. 
This is probably going to cost serious cash (always assuming I can
specify what I want accurately enough).

The whole area of technology, TL's and pricing in Traveller is a messy,
infuriating one (but only if you think about it :>).  

Hopefully the Imperium team will come up with a solution that will keep
the majority of us happy.

Eric.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #14
*********************************

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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 19 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 015

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: HEPlaR underwater
         2. Heat problems in space
         3. High TL producing low TL stuff
         4. Stellar cartography help
         5. Re: Heat problems in space
         6. Jump Drives
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #13
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #11
         9. Re: Stellar cartography help
        10. Re: Heat problems in space
        11. Re: Heat problems in space
        12. [none]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 16:16:15 +0200
Subject: Re: HEPlaR underwater

>Thoughts?  Remember we catch very few neutrinos.  If I recall correctly,
>it takes about a cubic mile of pure lead to stop all neutrinos passing
>through it.  And remember all of the fusion drives in Traveller (that I've
>seen) produce a fraction of the power of the sun, and hence, a fraction of
>the neutrinos.  Are there any Physicists/Astronomers out there that can
>tell me if I am remembering correctly?

It takes MUCH more than a mile of lead to stop all neutrinos.
Todays neutrino "sensors" are totally useless in detecting fusion drives
etc but the neutrino sensors given in MT and TNE are supposed to do just
that (check out the rules), either the referee don't allow neutrinosensors
in his campaign or he allows them and has to come up with reasons why SDBs
stay undetected.
In my campaign deep mesonguns are huge mobile subs that run on MHD turbines
and when it is time for action they start their fusion plants, shoot a bit,
switch off and try to move to another location.

/Backman



------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 16:24:37 +0200
Subject: Heat problems in space

>Anyone looked at the amp in their car (provided you have a certain level
>of power...)?  Are there any reasons anyone can think of that heat
>"baffles" or sinks on the outer hull, made of a heat conducting materials,
>of course, wouldn't work?

No heat baffles dissipate heat by air passing by and doesn't work in space.
One way of increasing the surface area of a spaceship is having two plates
with opposite charge and passing hot, charged particles between them. In my
campaign the the engine looking nozzles at the back of all shipdesigns are
in fact heat dissipators that push superheated hydrogen iones out of one
nozzle and receive them in the other noticeably cooler (they could of
course just eject the heated hydro and never receiving them, this would
account for the extreme fuelconsumtion for MT fusion plants). The reason
they're at the back of ships is to avoid hitting them when accelerating.
I think this idea was used in Pilots handbook or whatever its name was.

/Backman



------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 16:32:48 +0200
Subject: High TL producing low TL stuff

>Ah, but extend the example a bit further - if I want to run Digger (a
>favourite game from my college years) I need an XT/AT with CGA graphics,
>or a very close copy.  Nothing else will do.  A Newton, a P6 or an Alpha
>will not run Digger for me.

You run your digger on SoftWindows on your 180 MHz PPC 604. Almost all
dinkytoys computers from the 70s, PC included, have emulators that can run
their software.
There's even a Sinclair Spectrum emulator that uses the macs sound input
the read old software tapes for the spectrum.
My point is that if there's a need to run old software etc from obsolete
tech then sombody will make an emulator that can do it ie no need to
produce lower tech items on higher techs.

/Backman



------------------------------

From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 16:42:17 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Stellar cartography help

Help, I need help.  A simple problem here... I've been designing this 
near-future game using the Traveller rules.  Earth was all fine, and 
using the extended system rules (etc.) in the World Builders/Tamers 
books everything was just going peachy.  Then I went and had a go at 
generating the nearby-stars (a sector-ish)... boy did I hit some 
problems.  Is there a slight bias towards Terran environments or 
not... I originally envisioned only a few habitable planets in the 
local area (I think five or six), and even then I thought it was 
patently unrealistic.  Then I used Galactic* to generate the sector 
and I got about 150 of the suckers... slightly too much even for me.  
Thus, I return to 2300AD for inspiration - so to the question: does 
anyone know a program out there which will allow me to enter data 
(star coordinates) and then manipulate that data (calculation of 
distances, graphical representation, addition of major "trade" or 
"jump" routes, and that sort of thing)?  If you can point me in the 
right direction I shall be most obliged.  Don't worry if it's not 
freeware... if the program is good enough then the software company 
in question might get my custom and I'll purchase the little devil.

* Galactic - I wasn't slighting this program in any manner.  It is 
just that I was unable to change the core programming (i.e. no hex 
editor, or whatever is needed) to change the numbers slightly... -7 
to a -9/-10 for atmosphere, as an example.  However, the next time I 
start generating TNE or MT stuff *that* is the program to check out.  
If you don't own this, then I suggest that you download it.  
Unfortunately, you're going to have to find the addres again because 
I've lost it.

Thanks for listening to my waffle...

Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, BSc. Archaeology (Leicester University)

  "Ha!  'Tis only a flesh wound..."

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 10:03:57 -0600
Subject: Re: Heat problems in space

At 04:24 pm 5/18/96 +0200, you wrote:
>>Anyone looked at the amp in their car (provided you have a certain level
>>of power...)?  Are there any reasons anyone can think of that heat
>>"baffles" or sinks on the outer hull, made of a heat conducting materials,
>>of course, wouldn't work?
>
>No heat baffles dissipate heat by air passing by and doesn't work in space.

        Baffles also increase the surface area radiating heat, and therefore
_will_ give you some benefit in space. You just won't get the convective
heat transfer you do in an atmosphere.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 17:08:29 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Jump Drives

Just a quick easy to answer question on jump drives... I have read 
reference (Starship Operator's Manual) to the use of high-efficiency 
fusion drives to power the lanthanum hull network (or whatever it is 
now).  However, I have also read something about the jump fuel being 
used as a 'coolant' (maybe in one of the Traveller novels).  Which is 
the right way?  If it just needs a constant power source - and 
antimatter is a viable energy source - using this would sure free up 
some space.  If it's the second then everything stays the way it is?

Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, BSc. Archaeology (Leicester University)

  "Ha!  'Tis only a flesh wound..."

------------------------------

From: whitman@wisenet.net (Ken Whitman)
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 12:38:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #13

Dear Fans,

Thanx for the praise on the web page...

<<http://www.ImperGames.com>> ::marketing blerb::

First I wish to state that our page will be expanding everyday until we
have the pages and links just the way we need them.  Everyone say "HI" to
Matt Machtan, he is our online supervisor and he will be on the web
everyday making changes and helping the cause.

Secoundly, I would like for everyone to come up with "ONE" question that
they would like for us to answer about ImperiumGames, T4, or Marc Miller.
Please submit them by May 23, 1996 and we will compile them amd put our
interview on this mailing by June 1st.

Third, Our hardbound TRAVELLER book can only be bought over the internet,
mail order and at the GEN CON game fair.  If you purchas it before July 1st
it will be signed by Marc Miller.  By purchasing a copy now, you will be
helping us produce more materials for Traveller faster than we are
proceeding.  Help us help you and order one today.

And lastly, thank you for your suport.

Ken Whitman
President/Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 16 May 1996 18:47:05 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #11

>I was thinking heat convection, ie , the cold of space would "suck" the heat 
>out. If this needs matter, then I am wrong. So be it.

Space actually has a fairly high temperature!  Not much heat, being so thin,
but 'hot'.

In space you lose energy (heat) by radiation only.  You can only lose heat by
conduction when you are in contact with something.  (Convention is just
conduction to a circulating fluid.)

A big problem in working close to a star will be heat buildup.  This will
also be a problem with large power plants operating in a stealthed ship.  How
much attention you want to give this depends on how realistic you want your
game.  (One of my players - a physicist - used to do black body
calculations!)

------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 15:20:02 -0600
Subject: Re: Stellar cartography help

On 05/18/96 at 04:42 PM,  "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk> said:

>A simple problem here... 

It's probably not as simple as you think. <g>

>I've been designing this near-future game using the Traveller
>rules.  Earth was all fine, and using the extended system rules
>(etc.) in the World Builders/Tamers books everything was just
>going peachy.  Then I went and had a go at generating the
>nearby-stars (a sector-ish)... boy did I hit some problems.

Yep! Me too. <g>

>Is there a slight bias towards Terran environments or not...

Yes, there is.  That suits my game, but not everybodies.

>I originally envisioned only a few habitable planets in the 
>local area (I think five or six), and even then I thought it was 
>patently unrealistic.  

We don't know.  <g> I think the current theory is that most
main-sequence stars will have companions..either a binary pair or
planets of some sort.  Binary systems are unlikely to have terran-like
planets..just a few gas giants or ice balls far out. Solitary stars
between F5V and M0V are the best bets for terran-like planets.

>Then I used Galactic* to generate the sector and I got about 150
>of the suckers... slightly too much even for me.

Galactic is close to real Traveller rules, and real Traveller is sort
of based on *lots* and *lots* of habitable planets.  <g> You can find
programs that give more *realistic* results than Galactic...and I'm
*not* knocking Galactic. I *like* it's results.

>so to the question:  does anyone know a program out there which
>will allow me to enter data (star coordinates) and then
>manipulate that data (calculation of distances, graphical
>representation, addition of major "trade" or "jump" routes, and
>that sort of thing)?  

Not on a sector at a time.  If you are willing to generate a system at
a time and manually convert the data to UWP then contact:

    p6inf282@cicrp.jussieu.fr (Aina RASOLOMALALA)

He/she (I don't have the slightest idea which Aina would be), has
developed a good extended system generation program called STAR. He
pulls ideas from Accrete, Traveller, 2300, and other sources to
produce very good systems.  He sent me the source, in pascal, to
compile so I could modify the parameters if I wanted.  

You might want to find Accrete, start looking at
http://www.clark.net/pub/nyrath/starmap.html, this is a *good* page on
3-D Starmaps with lots of links..one of which leads to the Accrete
program.

Drop by Logicrucible's home page, http://www.logicrucible.com, and
look at the specs of Astrologicus.  I bought it two years ago and use
it in a couple of games.  The details aren't UWP based, but the detail
and modifiabilty is good.  Downside is the $$$. <g>

Personally, I'm only interested in generating complete systems, not
just main worlds.  I want details on the star and all planets, because
my players spend several days to several weeks in each system.

I'm in the very early stages of creating such a program myself. It
will include random generation with optional customizations. My
algorithm doesn't match Traveller's too closely, but it'll produce
UWPs..plus lots more eventually. <g>

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 14:19:14 -0600
Subject: Re: Heat problems in space

On 05/18/96 at 10:03 AM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:

>>> Are there any reasons anyone can think of that heat "baffles"
>>> or sinks on the outer hull, made of a heat conducting mate of
>>> course, wouldn't work?

>>No heat baffles dissipate heat by air passing by and doesn't work in 

>Baffles also increase the surface area radiating heat, and
>therefore _will_ give you some benefit in space. You just won't get
>the convective heat transfer you do in an atmosphere.

That's true, but you'd need *very* big baffles if you wanted to depend
on convection!  <g> Standard design in my games is for ships to get
rid of waste heat by venting coolant...often through extendible fins
or baffles.

A point I've *never* seen brought up is the heat build up inside a
ship while it is in Jump Space.  A week of heat build up in a perfect
vacuum bottle would roast the crew in their own juices!

In my universe, a ship has to continuously dump waste heat, and the
only way to do it is to expel some sort of coolant.  This is where the
majority of the jump "fuel" goes..not fuel for the jump, but coolant.

I use both jump coils and a jump grid in my setup.  The grid in the
hull insulates the ship's interior from the Jump Space (Jspace)
environment, providing protection for the crew from "jump psychosis." 
The grid needs power to stay up, and can fail or degrade with all
kinds of game consequences.  The coils are what tears open the door
from normal space (Nspace) to Jspace, they aren't needed while a ship
is in Jspace.  A ship automatically comes out of Jspace by nearing a
gravity source..a star. 

In my game, ships can only jump from far away from a star to very near
a star (or other high grav source).  This forces players to travel
across every star system, from where they enter (near the star), to
where they can jump out (some number of AU away from the star).

For in system travel I don't use reaction drives..or thruster plates
for that matter.  <g>

If anyone is interested, I'll post my variant.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 21:43:55 GMT
Subject: Re: Heat problems in space

On Sat, 18 May 96 14:19:14 -0600, you wrote:

=> A point I've *never* seen brought up is the heat build up inside a
=> ship while it is in Jump Space.  A week of heat build up in a perfect
=> vacuum bottle would roast the crew in their own juices!

Mmmm... tasty!

Perhaps the waste heat can be converted back to electricity via a
technologically advanced Therelectric Converter for use in maintaining the jump
field while in J-space (or built up and stored in the ship's Jump Capacitors).
Extra heat energy could also be transmitted to the microwave oven in the ship's
galley  8-)


------------------------------

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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 662
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 662

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Newsgroups vs. Mailing List.
	by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
  2) Re: New Traveller: Buy it or die!
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  3) Vote on Future of TML/XTML
	by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  4) Re: Newsgroup _and_ list
	by Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
  5) Re: TL/price (long)
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  6) Re: Newsgroup _and_ list
	by Paragon369@aol.com
  7) Re: TL/price (long)
	by Paragon369@aol.com
  8) Re: TL/price (long)
	by Paragon369@aol.com
  9) Autofire in TNE
	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
 10) Re: TRAVELLER digest 661
	by Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
 11) RE: TRAVELLER digest 661
	by David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
 12) Re: TL/price (long)
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
 13) Newsgroup vs list
	by aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
 14) Re: Newsgroup vs Mailing list.
	by Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 21:58:37 -0400 (EDT)
From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Newsgroups vs. Mailing List.
Message-ID: <199604180158.VAA08372@Central.KeyWest.MPGN.COM>

If any one wants to go through the process of creating a news group, more
power to them.  However, this list will remain and as list administrator, I 
will not support any attempts to rationalize the new news groups by claiming
a conversion from an existing mailing list.  As administrator, I have no
intentions on letting this list die.  I was not handed the reigns by the creator
to just close its doors.  This list has a long successful history and I think
it has a long successful future.

Here are my reasons for not supporting the news group idea:

Netnews is out of control.  A full news feed cannot be transmitted over a T1
without falling behind.  Netnews' days are numbered.  Between the web, and
the total amount of worthless spam in the news groups, administrators are
less likely to want to carry netnews.  We receive a restricted feed of just
alt.,comp.,rec., and sci. (less alt.binaries).  Even then, as much as I have 
been a big news advocate for the past 12 years, find myself asking why?

So as diskspace becomes more precious, and so does bandwidth, admins will look
for things to eliminate.  News is at the top of the heap.  If sites stop
having netnews, then our group dies with it.  Mailing lists are more popular
than ever right now because they are not open to spam, they are low bandwidth
and they are effective.

I would like to ask a favor of the subscribers.  Please drop this thread and
return to discussing Traveller.  I have no intention of making any changes
in the lists or creating a new list until the new game takes shape and we have
a clearer picture about its make up.  Any discussion about what to do is very
pre-mature at this point.  Lets wait a few months.  If we let this kind of
thread die, and go back to discussing the game, and traffic looks like it 
warrents it, I will create a special, short term list for discussing the future
(i.e. news.groups) where we can rationally discuss the various options.  I 
like to think of this list as your list, since you are the people that makes
the list, so your opinion is very very important.  But my job as administrator
is to keep things in focus and maintain the lists.  At this point, there is
no need to change things, and there may never be.  Let it die, and we will
fix it when it breaks.

Thanks for your understanding
Rob 

- -- 

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #15
*********************************

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Traveller-digest            Monday, 20 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 016

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re:  High TL producing low TL stuff
         2. Neutrino detectors
         3. Question
         4. RE: Heat problems in space
         5. TRAVELLER STUFF TO TRADE
         6. [none]
         7. RE: Heat problems in space
         8. Re: Neutrino detectors
         9. FF&S Rules Mods
        10. Re: Jump drives
        11. Re: Heat problems in space

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: p kugathasan <P.Kugathasan@bristol.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 16:21:39 BST
Subject: Re:  High TL producing low TL stuff

q:
:!
quit

------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 02:21:06 +0100 (METDST)
Subject: Neutrino detectors

Anders Backman writes:
>It takes MUCH more than a mile of lead to stop all neutrinos.
>Todays neutrino "sensors" are totally useless in detecting fusion drives
>etc but the neutrino sensors given in MT and TNE are supposed to do just
>that (check out the rules), either the referee don't allow neutrinosensors
>in his campaign or he allows them and has to come up with reasons why SDBs
>stay undetected.
>In my campaign deep mesonguns are huge mobile subs that run on MHD turbines
>and when it is time for action they start their fusion plants, shoot a bit,
>switch off and try to move to another location.

In my campaign I apply a DM of -1 for each neutrino source within detection
range to pin-pointing any specific neutrino source. That means that if the
world has a few dozen fusion plants, any ship is quite safe unless the
searcher is nearer to them than to any other neutrino source. And ships
jumping into remote parts of a high-traffic star system can expect to
remain undetected if they are reasonably lucky. Works quite well. 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 02:29:03 +0100 (METDST)
Subject: Question

Ken Whitman writes:
>Secoundly, I would like for everyone to come up with "ONE" question that
>they would like for us to answer about ImperiumGames, T4, or Marc Miller.
>Please submit them by May 23, 1996 and we will compile them amd put our
>interview on this mailing by June 1st.

Will you be doing any work on making the economic systems (living expenses,
salaries, exchange rates, cost of computers, weapons, vehicles, starships,
etc. from world to world and TL to TL) of Traveller more consistent? 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "A  subsector  official  pompously states that the
        subsector  armed  forces  have  four Kinunir class
        ships in service,  each with enough troop strength
        to put down any military operations that threathen
        the peace of the Imperium."

                        ---Adventure 1, The Kinunir

------------------------------

From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 14:50:03 +1300
Subject: RE: Heat problems in space

Hi all,

With an IR sensor (EMS sensor), are you detecting the heat generated by the
power plant operation or the exhaust from the engines? If it is the exhaust
from the engines, then surely once you have finished acceleration, then you
can shut the manuver drives down therefore creating no more exhaust (ie. no
more heat sig.). If the sensors are picking up the heat from the power
plants operation, then surely you could run a coolant arround it and
shrouding the heat signature. By encasing the power plant with a outer
shell of, say liquid hydrogen or nitrogen, then the heat would be
transfered to the liquid gas and the signature radiating out would be less.

This is just a way I thought up to ease the problem of the heat sig.
effect. The rate of exchange of the liquid gas would need to be calculated
with regards to the power/heat output of the ship to see if it would be
effective.


Thanks in advance,


 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Blair Lynch-Blosse, BSc (MSc student)         lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz
  Earth Sciences Department
  University of Waikato
  Hamilton                                            175.19'E 37.47'S
  New Zealand                "Trust No One. Deny Everything" - X-Files
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 22:59:37 -0400
Subject: TRAVELLER STUFF TO TRADE

I have the following excess Traveller/TNE materials that I would like to
trade for a copy of FASA's Doctor Who RPG (any edition is fine as long as
it's in decent shape) and possibly some of the modules for it.

STARTER TRAVELLER: Complete and in good (but not mint) condition
MEGATRAVELLER: As above, but books in excellent shape. Includes errata.
TRAVELLER TNE RULEBOOK: Excellent shape, Mk I Mod 1 printing.
TRAVELLER DIGESTS: #11
                   #18
                   #19
ALIENS OF THE RIM (TNE)
REFORMATION COALITION EQUIPMENT GUIDE (TNE)
PATH OF TEARS (TNE)
REGENCY SOURCEBOOK (TNE)
76 PATRONS (for Classic Traveller)
TNE Novels 1 and 2 (good shape)

    I'm willing to dicker some about exact deal, but I really need to get
ahold of a copy of the Doctor Who Roleplaying Game. Please e-mail me if
interested.



------------------------------

From: uucp@uu2.psi.com
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 23:05:54 -0400
Subject: [none]

Subject: UUCP job killed
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Message from UUCP on uupsi2 Sun May 19 23:05:53 1996

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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 663
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 663

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TL/price (long)
	by Paragon369@aol.com
  2) Big guns/fast moving things
	by "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
  3) rules equivalencies
	by ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
  4) TLs and prices
	by Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
  5) Valk's Traveller Issue
	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Apr 1996 21:44:06 -0400
From: Paragon369@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TL/price (long)
Message-ID: <960418214405_275506554@emout15.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 96-04-18 16:00:51 EDT, you write:

<< I didn't mean to imply that once a certain technology was mature there
would be no advances _in other technologies that do the same task_.
But if we take, say, computer memory as an example:  At a certain point
semiconductor memory might become mature.  At this point there will
basically be no advance in memory density _with that technology_.
Optical memeory would be a new, and hence not mature technology, memeory
densities would continue to increase, but the technology would be
different.
 >>
Take this little fact for instance... CD Roms....
I've been following the CD Rom technology since it was being studied.  The
first development gave us the CD Roms that we have today.  The second stage
is due to be released in August, the DVD drives.. they'll start at 4.7
gigabytes!  By 1998 the DVD's will be read / write and have a capacity of 18
gigabytes...   But this is only the second stage...

The third stage, the actual objective of all of the research (CD and DVD
technology were just a 'spin-off' is the 3-D holigraphic storage unit.  The
unit is going to be roughly the size of a matchbox, clear crystal
construction, and have a capacity (at first) of 1 TERRABYTE!  Later systems
will range up to 10 TERRABYTES!!

Now, if these type of advances can occur on modern day earth, what's going to
happen in the future... a future with far, far more people doing research on
a variety of different subjects....??

One can only stand an wonder.... but don't stand too long... or you too will
be obsolete!

<grin>
Russ

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 09:35:04 +0000
From: "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Big guns/fast moving things
Message-ID: <199604190835.JAA15282@cheviot.ncl.ac.uk>

Just a final note but something to think about. I've a friend and his 
brother back home in my tax haven who used to go hunting rabbits with 
an elephant gun (we have these things left over from the Empire you 
know), they discovered the most effective way to stop a fast moving 
bunny aws not to shoot at it, but to fire at the ground near it, the 
resulting impact would either cause a concusion wave to stun the 
rabbit of else the round would fragment and do bunny in. According to 
my sources though fatalities were quite high in our fluffy tailed 
friends, there normally was not much worth eating, apparantly a 
direct hit would leave a smooking fluffy tail but no rabbit. 
Kinder of like firing plasma/fusion guns at lightly armoured people, 
though let's be honest that's what a RAM GL loaded with Flechette is 
for and a whole lot easier.
Hope I didn't spoil any of your diners, I yet to tell you my sticking 
cordite in bread and throwing it to the sea gulls story.
Cheers
Bob


------------------------------

From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 20:56:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RE: Heat problems in space

On Mon, 20 May 1996, B Lynch-Blosse wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> With an IR sensor (EMS sensor), are you detecting the heat generated by the
> power plant operation or the exhaust from the engines? If it is the exhaust
> from the engines, then surely once you have finished acceleration, then you
> can shut the manuver drives down therefore creating no more exhaust (ie. no
> more heat sig.). If the sensors are picking up the heat from the power
> plants operation, then surely you could run a coolant arround it and
> shrouding the heat signature. By encasing the power plant with a outer
> shell of, say liquid hydrogen or nitrogen, then the heat would be
> transfered to the liquid gas and the signature radiating out would be less.

But then where does the heat go...it will still have to be removed from
the ship somehow, lest one encounter the "jump-cooker" effect that some
(devious) person postulates...

What prevents ship designers from using Black Globe type systems to absorb
heat energy and return electically storable (and reusable) energy?

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Sun, 19 May 1996 23:00:45 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Neutrino detectors

 
> In my campaign I apply a DM of -1 for each neutrino source within detection
> range to pin-pointing any specific neutrino source. That means that if the
> world has a few dozen fusion plants, any ship is quite safe unless the
> searcher is nearer to them than to any other neutrino source. And ships
> jumping into remote parts of a high-traffic star system can expect to
> remain undetected if they are reasonably lucky. Works quite well. 

What would the detection range of a neutrino detector be?  We could look
at the deBroglie wavelength of a neutrino and do some angular resolution
numbers (making some assumptions about detector size vs. resolution for
neutrinos) and go for some minimum resolution I guess.

Do stars count for this?  say every background star within some solid
angle of the target area being swept by the sensor?

If the detection range has to do with signal to noise then we need a
ballpark figure for a powerplant, then an idea on the background.

I still have the feeling that even with magic strong/weak control
neutrino detectors would be very short range critters (100s-1000s of km
at most (off the top of my head)).

This is kinda cool, actually.  You'd get them appearing with damper
tech, and they'd be used in astronomy and for scans from orbit.  You
might be able to make out really big PPs from low orbit assuming they
weren't shielded using the same tech that allows you to make the
detector in the first place (remember, you have to be able to stop the
thing to detect it for the most part---so you can then use the
technology as a shielding material).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Michael Bailey <mickb@thehub.com.au>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:34:28 -0900
Subject: FF&S Rules Mods

Hi,

If anyone has any house rules or rules mods for use with FF&S, and they
don't mind my putting them up on a Web page, drop me a note and we'll talk.

Yes, yet another Traveller page is now available, albiet in a very primitive
and rudimentary form at this stage (I don't have the time to do a great deal
of work on it).  It can be found at http://www.thehub.com.au/~mickb/travel.html

Any comments or suggestions would be welcomed.

Thanx,

Michael Bailey 

'quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand.  Ignorance and
prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.'
                             Rush, 'The Witchhunt'


------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 13:18:28 +0100
Subject: Re: Jump drives

>Just a quick easy to answer question on jump drives... I have read
>reference (Starship Operator's Manual) to the use of high-efficiency
>fusion drives to power the lanthanum hull network (or whatever it is
>now).  However, I have also read something about the jump fuel being
>used as a 'coolant' (maybe in one of the Traveller novels).  Which is
>the right way?  If it just needs a constant power source - and
>antimatter is a viable energy source - using this would sure free up
>some space.  If it's the second then everything stays the way it is?

Starships operators manual is MT and the Traveller novels is TNE ie
different universes and different laws of physics. Antimatter is too high a
TL to use in either MT or TNE but other energy sources could do.

Another note about LHyd as fuel: If LHyd is required and jump dependent on
volume of ship then an important issue would be to pack as much hydrogen
per volume as possible, right? Then on X-boats and other ships where mass
is not as important one could make the fueltanks out of solid Titan. It is
possible to pack at least 10 times as much hydrogen into solid Titan than
in empty fueltanks! An even better material would be Palladium which has
even better hydrogen packing abilities but it is a bit expensive <g>.

/Backman

"Vad v=E4rlden =E4r =E4r allt vad som =E4r fallet"
L Wittgenstein
Tractatus Logico Philosophicus

/Backman



------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 12:57:54 +0100
Subject: Re: Heat problems in space

>        Baffles also increase the surface area radiating heat, and therefor=
e
>_will_ give you some benefit in space. You just won't get the convective
>heat transfer you do in an atmosphere.

OK, to get this straight the surface area for thermal radiation is not the
same as what we normally consider surface area. A sphere with a smooth
surface has the same radiating surface as a wrinkled one in this regard.
The reason for this is simply put if you have two adjacent baffles
radiating they will simply radiate onto one another and no heat exchange to
the universe occurs. The area in use is something like the projected
surface of the ship/object averaged over all viewing angles. This is
obviously nitpicking (on my part) but the problem with heat dissipation
remains and I think some sort of superheated mass ejection and/or
electrostatic cooling cloud has to be used if one want realistic rules.

/Backman

"Vad v=E4rlden =E4r =E4r allt vad som =E4r fallet"
L Wittgenstein
Tractatus Logico Philosophicus

/Backman



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #16
*********************************

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To: traveller-digest@MPGN.COM
Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #17
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Traveller-digest            Tuesday, 21 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 017

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Dave Nilsen
         2. Re: Heat problems in space
         3. Astro-babble.
         4. Re: High TL producing low TL stuff
         5. Anyone interested in Hammer's Slammer's Game?
         6. Re: Astro-babble.
         7. Traversible Wormhole Web Sites
         8. Re: Astro-babble.
         9. [none]
        10. anyone still there?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 09:04:16 -0400
Subject: Dave Nilsen

I spoke to Dave Nilsen yesterday.  For the record, Dave is NOT burned out on 
gaming, although he was glad to get a vacation.  He is very busy with his new 
job working for the Army but is potentially interested in joining these lists. 
I gave him the addresses information for many 2300 and Traveller-related lists 
and websites, including these two, and some other interesting sites (such as 
the 3D starmap, GDW-Beta, and the CJ Cherryh sites).

He gave me permission to pass on his email address -- dnilsen@msn.com.  For 
the record, I met Dave in person a few years ago, and he took pretty much an 
entire day to show me around GDW.

I told him about the idea on the 2300 list to recreate The Game for the post-
2300 timeframe (although I did not give him any details, as I have not had a 
chance to read through that thread).  He tells me that he saved what he could 
of the original Game, including the map and some counters.  In fact, he said 
that he had just been in his garage 20 minutes before I called, and as of 
then, "the map still exists."

Also, the third volume of Paul Brunette's series may come out -- it's still 
being worked on, and they may get it published yet.  I hope so.

Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
someday agree with something I say.


------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 16:55:45 +0100
Subject: Re: Heat problems in space

>If the sensors are picking up the heat from the power
>plants operation, then surely you could run a coolant arround it and
>shrouding the heat signature.

If the sensor is picking up the sharp temp at parts of the ship surface
then the coolants would work but if the problem is the total heat generated
then the cooling will only smooth the heat distribution over a larger area.
IR stealth tech on tanks etc are distributing the heat over the entire
surface of the tank and do not actually cool it down. In vacuum you cannot
cool things down by any other means than radiation or exhausts, neither is
good if you want to stay undetected.

/Backman

"Vad v=E4rlden =E4r =E4r allt vad som =E4r fallet"
L Wittgenstein
Tractatus Logico Philosophicus

/Backman



------------------------------

From: Jamie Young <jamie@tsc.scotnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 16:54:54 +0100
Subject: Astro-babble.

Many star systems in Traveller are binaries.  In addition to the two stars
these systems often have planets.  Is this realistic?  I seem to remember
from a first year astronomy class that their is no analytical solution to
the N-body problem in astronomy for N > 2.

Translation please, Mr Spock.

It is quite easy to calculate the orbit of a planet around a star, of of one
star around another, using Newtonian physics.  Because only two bodies are
involved this is called the two-body problem.  Although there are 10
significant bodies in the solar system, the two-body equations provide an
accurate description of their movements because one body (the sun) so so
much more massive than the others, and the planets are so small and so far
apart that their effect on one another is negligible. ( this is a gross
simplification!)

The problem arises when trying to calculate the motion of a small body under
the gravitational influence of two bodies of comparable size; for example, a
planet in a binary star system.  This is the 3-body problem, and it really
is a problem because there is no analytical (i.e. exact)solution to it.
This is not because astronomers are not bright enough to solve it, its just
that there really is no solution to the equations.  High speed computers are
used to generate closer and closer approximations to the solution.

These computer solutions show that there is no stable orbit for the small
body (the planet).  Any planet in a binary (or higher order) system will
describe a chaotic orbit and will eventually be ejected from the system
altogether (after a few million orbits)

What does all this technobabble mean for traveller players?  It means that
the ~60% of star systems that are of binary or higher order cannot have
planets (including the all-important gas-giant filling-stations) and that
the universe is therefore much more difficult to get around in.

Can any real astronomer confirm or deny the above?

I hope you were taking notes, because there will now be a short test..... :-)

Jamie


------------------------------

From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 11:10:09 -0500
Subject: Re: High TL producing low TL stuff

>From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
>Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 16:32:48 +0200
>Subject: High TL producing low TL stuff
>
>>Ah, but extend the example a bit further - if I want to run Digger (a
>>favourite game from my college years) I need an XT/AT with CGA graphics,
>>or a very close copy.  Nothing else will do.  A Newton, a P6 or an Alpha
>>will not run Digger for me.
>
>You run your digger on SoftWindows on your 180 MHz PPC 604. Almost all
>dinkytoys computers from the 70s, PC included, have emulators that can run
>their software.
>There's even a Sinclair Spectrum emulator that uses the macs sound input
>the read old software tapes for the spectrum.
>My point is that if there's a need to run old software etc from obsolete
>tech then sombody will make an emulator that can do it ie no need to
>produce lower tech items on higher techs.
>
>/Backman
>

These emulators would only work when you're talking about software.  Yes,
you could have some type of physical converters, but why would someone mass
produce this sort of item.  Software emulators are available, but creating
software doesn't require a lot of capital investment.  Let's face it, you
don't wake up one day and think, "Gee I'd like to run some of my old C-64
programs.  I think I'll go out and buy a pentium and program an emulator."
Most programmers already have the capital investment they need, and once
they invest the initial time, the product can be sold multiple times with
negligible expense.  A power coupling or data transfer cable on the other
had requires raw materials and manpower and equipment for each item
produced.  Unless there is a grand market for these items, the return on
investment just wont be large enough for anyone to invest in the production
of them.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Mitch Schwartz <mitch@intersys.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 12:19:20 -0400
Subject: Anyone interested in Hammer's Slammer's Game?

Anyone interested in picking up a copy of Mayfair Games "Hammer's Slammers"
game for
$4 plus postage, send me mail (directly; don't bother clogging the list).

The game is fairly simple, but gives a decent feel for company/battalion
combat in David Drakes Hammer's Slammers universe.  Units are platoons;
scenarios range from company to battalion v. battalion.

I have access to a cheap source for a limited time, so act fast or forget it....

                                                        mitch

Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more
difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing in the tempting place.
                    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

Official:                                                Unofficial:
mitch@intersys.com                     Ted7@world.std.com
                                                     http://world.std.com/~Ted7


------------------------------

From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:51:21 +0200
Subject: Re: Astro-babble.

Jamie Young wrote:
> 
> Many star systems in Traveller are binaries.  In addition to the two stars
> these systems often have planets.  Is this realistic?  I seem to remember
> from a first year astronomy class that their is no analytical solution to
> the N-body problem in astronomy for N > 2.
> 
> Translation please, Mr Spock.
> 
[Two-body explanation sniped]
> 
> The problem arises when trying to calculate the motion of a small body under
> the gravitational influence of two bodies of comparable size; for example, a
> planet in a binary star system.  This is the 3-body problem, and it really
> is a problem because there is no analytical (i.e. exact)solution to it.
> This is not because astronomers are not bright enough to solve it, its just
> that there really is no solution to the equations.  High speed computers are
> used to generate closer and closer approximations to the solution.
> 
There is a solution to the three-body problem, but it is diffucult to find. To give
you an example the Troyan-astroids (located 60 degrees behind Jupiter in the Jupiter
orbit) is a solution to the Lagrange three-body eqaution, using the Sun, Jupiter and 
the asteroids

> These computer solutions show that there is no stable orbit for the small
> body (the planet).  Any planet in a binary (or higher order) system will
> describe a chaotic orbit and will eventually be ejected from the system
> altogether (after a few million orbits)

There are stable solutions but thaty are rare and rather strange. I quess it also
heavyly depends on the makeup of the system. A very heavy star circled by a white 
dwarf would give a Sun-Jupiter type system.

> 
> What does all this technobabble mean for traveller players?  It means that
> the ~60% of star systems that are of binary or higher order cannot have
> planets (including the all-important gas-giant filling-stations) and that
> the universe is therefore much more difficult to get around in.
> 
> Can any real astronomer confirm or deny the above?
> 
I'm currently taking a beginners course in Astronomi and havn't gotten to the 
Lagrangian problems yet, but this is my take on this. If anyone can tell me
otherwise, I'll humbly step down and admith that I was wrong.

> I hope you were taking notes, because there will now be a short test..... :-)
> 
> Jamie

- -- 
- ---------------------------
Tommy Grav         | tommyg@ifi.uio.no
University in Oslo | http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/
Norway             |        No qoute yet.

------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 10:27 PDT
Subject: Traversible Wormhole Web Sites

http://www.hia.com/hia/pcr/visser.html
http://www.cnde.iastate.edu/staff/swormley/bkr/bkr.94.05
http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/Trans/wormholes.html
http://www.intr.net/bertwillco/

The above are a few that I have found so far...

Joel

jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com
internet multimedia trials 
intel corporation
2111 ne 25th ave, m/s: jf2-74
Hillsboro, OR 97124
(503)264-3792

"My views, opinions, etc. do not necessarily reflect those of my company...
 etc. etc...."


------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 13:10:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Astro-babble.

Actually, I recall reading that planets within 1/3 of the distance between
the binaries (i.e. <2 AU if the separation between the stars is 6 AU) should
have stable orbits.  So the range available is limited, not eliminated.
Of course, gas giants could still form and cause trouble for more inward
accretions (e.g. Jupiter and our asteroid belt).  So habitable planets
in binary systems are unlikely, but not impossible.

Martyn Fogg wrote a splendid series of papers for the Journal of the 
British Interplanetary Society (available at a good university library 
near you), one of which calculated the probability of Earth-like planets
circling nearby stars (using the results of a Monte-Carlo simulation
he'd written, descended from ACCRETE).  It's an interesting paper, both
sobering and uplifting.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 664
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			    TRAVELLER Digest 664

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Milieu 0
	by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  2) Re: rules equivalencies
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  3) Re: Milieu 0
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 19:09:03 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: FarFuture@aol.com
Subject: Milieu 0
Message-ID: <199604200205.TAA13943@mom.hooked.net>

With the impending release of T4, I find myself most excited by Milieu
0.  For me, the prospect of being there when it all starts gives an
almost unlimited potential for adventure.  I am going to explore a few
of the possibilities that have come to mind in the last few weeks.  A
copy of this is being sent to Marc Miller, in hopes that he might be
able to find something for me to do on the production of this book.

MILIEU 0:  The Sylean Federation was good enough for me!

One thing to consider is the birth pains of the new Imperium.  Despite
Cleon's PR campaign, many Sylean citizens are opposed to the new
government.  This opposition will range from angry editorials to
terrorist bombings.  An important test of the new order is their
reaction to this dissent; do they tolerate it in the name of an open
exchange of ideas, or crush it beneath the Imperial boot?

Many of the early nobles, drawn from the Sylean Navy and Senate, are
given grants of land in areas they already administered.  For most, life
will continue on with the introduction of a new level of social
interaction added to the mix.  There will be those, however, who find
the title an invitation to tyranny.  Some nobles will begin amassing
personal fortunes, start a little "empire-building" of their own, or
just engage in the type of anti-social behavior that has been expected
of the nobility throughout history.

THE SCOUT SERVICE:  The Brave, The Resourceful, The Short Lived

The transformation of the Sylean Survey Office into the Imperial
Interstellar Scout Service is likely to be traumatic.  For centuries,
the Survey had only been called upon to keep the maps up-to-date and
monitor local conditions inside the Federation; now, they are tasked
with exploring the whole of the old Imperium!

I must point out that the Scouts have almost no information about the
area beyond Federation borders.  They may have a vague idea where Earth,
Vland, and Hub are, but beyond that, nothing.  Every system is an
unknown.  (I would like to thank Mr. Miller and Imperium Games for
making the decision not to detail the sectors, leaving that job for the
gamemaster.)

Many Scouts in the first few decades of the Imperium would be drawn from
the edge of Federation space.  Offering the chance for adventure - with
the bonus that if you live long enough, you get to keep the ship you
serve on - will attract the numbers of recruits needed for the huge job
ahead.

The opportunities for a Traveller group are obvious:  Seeking out
strange new worlds, boldly going where no man has gone... oops, don't
want Paramount mad at us..  :)

DIPLOMACY:  How much for just the planet?

One area of Traveller that I always considered sadly neglected was
diplomacy.  As a long time fan of Keith Laumer's "Retief" stories, the
thought of adventures where wits, not firepower, were the solution
intrigues me.

The Third Imperium is going to need diplomats.  As it expands, the
Imperium will contact many cultures that have drifted far from the
cultural legacy left by the Rule of Man.  Since civilization will most
likely survive on the worlds most desirable to the Imperium, skilled
negotiators will be in demand.


------------------------------

From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 19:38:44 +1000 (EST)
Subject: anyone still there?

I haven't received any stuff from the list for at least a week. Am I having a
problem here or is the list down? If it's still there, could someone email me
so I can follow up any problem this end. Thanx

Phil McGregor

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #17
*********************************

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Traveller-digest           Wednesday, 22 May 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 018

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. ATTN: Andy Lilly
         2. Re: anyone still there?
         3. Traveller-digest V1996 #17
         4. Hardcover Traveller Version.
         5. Binary Systems.
         6. [none]
         7. Re: Heat Problems in Space
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #13
         9. re: Neutrino detectors

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Mark Fletcher <mf1@st-andrews.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 18:18:04 +0100 (BST)
Subject: ATTN: Andy Lilly

Andy,

Ive lost your new E-mail address. Could you get in touch in let me know 
what it is?

Thanks, 

Mark

  ---------------------------------------------------------------
   "Courtesy is an obligation; friendship   | Mark Fletcher.
    a gift." Loosely quoted Vilani proverb. | (mf1@st-and.ac.uk)


------------------------------

From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:48:22 -0400
Subject: Re: anyone still there?

> I haven't received any stuff from the list for at least a week. Am 
> I having a problem here or is the list down? If it's still there, 
> could someone email me so I can follow up any problem this end. Thanx 
>  
> Phil McGregor 
>  
>  

Hey Phil,

I got your message, and I am replying to both the list and to you direct.  You 
should therefore get two copies of this.

I think the list has been a bit slow, btw.

- --Chris W
________________________________________________________________
Christopher Weuve [caw@intercon.com, 703/709-5520 voice]
Technical Engineer, InterCon Systems Technical Support
http://www.intercon.com/ -- InterCon's World Wide Web site


------------------------------

From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpwpo.dayt.tasc.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 16:55:20 -0400
Subject: Traveller-digest V1996 #17

>>> <owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM> 05/21/96 08:00am >>>

Traveller-digest            Tuesday, 21 May 1996        Volume 1996 :
Number 017

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Dave Nilsen
         2. Re: Heat problems in space
         3. Astro-babble.
         4. Re: High TL producing low TL stuff
         5. Anyone interested in Hammer's Slammer's Game?
         6. Re: Astro-babble.
         7. Traversible Wormhole Web Sites
         8. Re: Astro-babble.
         9. [none]
        10. anyone still there?

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 09:04:16 -0400
Subject: Dave Nilsen

I spoke to Dave Nilsen yesterday.  For the record, Dave is NOT burned
out on  gaming, although he was glad to get a vacation.  He is very busy
with his new  job working for the Army but is potentially interested in
joining these lists.  I gave him the addresses information for many 2300
and Traveller-related lists  and websites, including these two, and some
other interesting sites (such as  the 3D starmap, GDW-Beta, and the CJ
Cherryh sites).

He gave me permission to pass on his email address --
dnilsen@msn.com.  For  the record, I met Dave in person a few years
ago, and he took pretty much an  entire day to show me around GDW.

I told him about the idea on the 2300 list to recreate The Game for the
post-
2300 timeframe (although I did not give him any details, as I have not had
a  chance to read through that thread).  He tells me that he saved what
he could  of the original Game, including the map and some counters.  In
fact, he said  that he had just been in his garage 20 minutes before I
called, and as of  then, "the map still exists."

Also, the third volume of Paul Brunette's series may come out -- it's still 
being worked on, and they may get it published yet.  I hope so.

Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may  someday agree with
something I say.


- ------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 16:55:45 +0100
Subject: Re: Heat problems in space

>If the sensors are picking up the heat from the power
>plants operation, then surely you could run a coolant arround it and
>shrouding the heat signature.

If the sensor is picking up the sharp temp at parts of the ship surface
then the coolants would work but if the problem is the total heat
generated then the cooling will only smooth the heat distribution over a
larger area.
IR stealth tech on tanks etc are distributing the heat over the entire
surface of the tank and do not actually cool it down. In vacuum you
cannot cool things down by any other means than radiation or exhausts,
neither is good if you want to stay undetected.

/Backman

"Vad v=E4rlden =E4r =E4r allt vad som =E4r fallet"
L Wittgenstein
Tractatus Logico Philosophicus

/Backman



- ------------------------------

From: Jamie Young <jamie@tsc.scotnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 16:54:54 +0100
Subject: Astro-babble.

Many star systems in Traveller are binaries.  In addition to the two stars
these systems often have planets.  Is this realistic?  I seem to remember
from a first year astronomy class that their is no analytical solution to the
N-body problem in astronomy for N > 2.

Translation please, Mr Spock.

It is quite easy to calculate the orbit of a planet around a star, of of one
star around another, using Newtonian physics.  Because only two
bodies are involved this is called the two-body problem.  Although there
are 10 significant bodies in the solar system, the two-body equations
provide an accurate description of their movements because one body
(the sun) so so much more massive than the others, and the planets are
so small and so far apart that their effect on one another is negligible. (
this is a gross simplification!)

The problem arises when trying to calculate the motion of a small body
under the gravitational influence of two bodies of comparable size; for
example, a planet in a binary star system.  This is the 3-body problem,
and it really is a problem because there is no analytical (i.e.
exact)solution to it.
This is not because astronomers are not bright enough to solve it, its just
that there really is no solution to the equations.  High speed computers
are used to generate closer and closer approximations to the solution.

These computer solutions show that there is no stable orbit for the small
body (the planet).  Any planet in a binary (or higher order) system will
describe a chaotic orbit and will eventually be ejected from the system
altogether (after a few million orbits)

What does all this technobabble mean for traveller players?  It means that
the ~60% of star systems that are of binary or higher order cannot have
planets (including the all-important gas-giant filling-stations) and that the
universe is therefore much more difficult to get around in.

Can any real astronomer confirm or deny the above?

I hope you were taking notes, because there will now be a short test.....
:-)

Jamie


- ------------------------------

From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 11:10:09 -0500
Subject: Re: High TL producing low TL stuff

>From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
>Date: Sat, 18 May 1996 16:32:48 +0200
>Subject: High TL producing low TL stuff
>
>>Ah, but extend the example a bit further - if I want to run Digger (a
>>favourite game from my college years) I need an XT/AT with CGA
graphics,
>>or a very close copy.  Nothing else will do.  A Newton, a P6 or an
Alpha
>>will not run Digger for me.
>
>You run your digger on SoftWindows on your 180 MHz PPC 604.
Almost all
>dinkytoys computers from the 70s, PC included, have emulators that
can run
>their software.
>There's even a Sinclair Spectrum emulator that uses the macs sound
input
>the read old software tapes for the spectrum.
>My point is that if there's a need to run old software etc from obsolete
>tech then sombody will make an emulator that can do it ie no need to
>produce lower tech items on higher techs.
>
>/Backman
>

These emulators would only work when you're talking about software. 
Yes, you could have some type of physical converters, but why would
someone mass produce this sort of item.  Software emulators are
available, but creating software doesn't require a lot of capital
investment.  Let's face it, you don't wake up one day and think, "Gee I'd
like to run some of my old C-64 programs.  I think I'll go out and buy a
pentium and program an emulator."
Most programmers already have the capital investment they need, and
once they invest the initial time, the product can be sold multiple times
with negligible expense.  A power coupling or data transfer cable on the
other had requires raw materials and manpower and equipment for each
item produced.  Unless there is a grand market for these items, the return
on investment just wont be large enough for anyone to invest in the
production of them.


Paul  {tiger}


- ------------------------------

From: Mitch Schwartz <mitch@intersys.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 12:19:20 -0400
Subject: Anyone interested in Hammer's Slammer's Game?

Anyone interested in picking up a copy of Mayfair Games "Hammer's
Slammers" game for
$4 plus postage, send me mail (directly; don't bother clogging the list).

The game is fairly simple, but gives a decent feel for company/battalion
combat in David Drakes Hammer's Slammers universe.  Units are
platoons; scenarios range from company to battalion v. battalion.

I have access to a cheap source for a limited time, so act fast or forget
it....

                                                        mitch

Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more
difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing in the tempting place.
                    -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790)

Official:                                                Unofficial: mitch@intersys.com       
             Ted7@world.std.com
                                                     http://world.std.com/~Ted7


- ------------------------------

From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 18:51:21 +0200
Subject: Re: Astro-babble.

Jamie Young wrote:
>  > Many star systems in Traveller are binaries.  In addition to the two
stars
> these systems often have planets.  Is this realistic?  I seem to
remember
> from a first year astronomy class that their is no analytical solution to
> the N-body problem in astronomy for N > 2.
>  > Translation please, Mr Spock.
>  [Two-body explanation sniped]
>  > The problem arises when trying to calculate the motion of a small
body under
> the gravitational influence of two bodies of comparable size; for
example, a
> planet in a binary star system.  This is the 3-body problem, and it really
> is a problem because there is no analytical (i.e. exact)solution to it.
> This is not because astronomers are not bright enough to solve it, its
just
> that there really is no solution to the equations.  High speed computers
are
> used to generate closer and closer approximations to the solution.
>  There is a solution to the three-body problem, but it is diffucult to find.
To give you an example the Troyan-astroids (located 60 degrees behind
Jupiter in the Jupiter orbit) is a solution to the Lagrange three-body
eqaution, using the Sun, Jupiter and  the asteroids

> These computer solutions show that there is no stable orbit for the
small
> body (the planet).  Any planet in a binary (or higher order) system will
> describe a chaotic orbit and will eventually be ejected from the system
> altogether (after a few million orbits)

There are stable solutions but thaty are rare and rather strange. I quess
it also heavyly depends on the makeup of the system. A very heavy star
circled by a white  dwarf would give a Sun-Jupiter type system.

>  > What does all this technobabble mean for traveller players?  It means
that
> the ~60% of star systems that are of binary or higher order cannot
have
> planets (including the all-important gas-giant filling-stations) and that
> the universe is therefore much more difficult to get around in.
>  > Can any real astronomer confirm or deny the above?
>  I'm currently taking a beginners course in Astronomi and havn't gotten
to the  Lagrangian problems yet, but this is my take on this. If anyone can
tell me otherwise, I'll humbly step down and admith that I was wrong.

> I hope you were taking notes, because there will now be a short
test..... :-)
>  > Jamie

- - --  - ---------------------------
Tommy Grav         | tommyg@ifi.uio.no
University in Oslo | http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/
Norway             |        No qoute yet.

- ------------------------------

From: Joel Lovell <jwlovelx@ibeam.jf.intel.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 10:27 PDT
Subject: Traversible Wormhole Web Sites

http://www.hia.com/hia/pcr/visser.html
http://www.cnde.iastate.edu/staff/swormley/bkr/bkr.94.05
http://www.nada.kth.se/~nv91-asa/Trans/wormholes.html
http://www.intr.net/bertwillco/

The above are a few that I have found so far...

Joel

jwlovelx@ibeam.intel.com internet multimedia trials  intel corporation
2111 ne 25th ave, m/s: jf2-74
Hillsboro, OR 97124
(503)264-3792

"My views, opinions, etc. do not necessarily reflect those of my
company...
 etc. etc...."


- ------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 1996 13:10:03 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Astro-babble.

Actually, I recall reading that planets within 1/3 of the distance between
the binaries (i.e. <2 AU if the separation between the stars is 6 AU)
should have stable orbits.  So the range available is limited, not
eliminated.
Of course, gas giants could still form and cause trouble for more inward
accretions (e.g. Jupiter and our asteroid belt).  So habitable planets in
binary systems are unlikely, but not impossible.

Martyn Fogg wrote a splendid series of papers for the Journal of the 
British Interplanetary Society (available at a good university library  near
you), one of which calculated the probability of Earth-like planets circling
nearby stars (using the results of a Monte-Carlo simulation he'd written,
descended from ACCRETE).  It's an interesting paper, both sobering and
uplifting.

- - ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan,
Amiga user, http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae |
Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

- ------------------------------

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Subject: UUCP job killed
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			    TRAVELLER Digest 664

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Milieu 0
	by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  2) Re: rules equivalencies
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  3) Re: Milieu 0
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

- - ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 19 Apr 1996 19:09:03 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: FarFuture@aol.com
Subject: Milieu 0
Message-ID: <199604200205.TAA13943@mom.hooked.net>

With the impending release of T4, I find myself most excited by Milieu
0.  For me, the prospect of being there when it all starts gives an almost
unlimited potential for adventure.  I am going to explore a few of the
possibilities that have come to mind in the last few weeks.  A copy of
this is being sent to Marc Miller, in hopes that he might be able to find
something for me to do on the production of this book.

MILIEU 0:  The Sylean Federation was good enough for me!

One thing to consider is the birth pains of the new Imperium.  Despite
Cleon's PR campaign, many Sylean citizens are opposed to the new
government.  This opposition will range from angry editorials to terrorist
bombings.  An important test of the new order is their reaction to this
dissent; do they tolerate it in the name of an open exchange of ideas, or
crush it beneath the Imperial boot?

Many of the early nobles, drawn from the Sylean Navy and Senate, are
given grants of land in areas they already administered.  For most, life
will continue on with the introduction of a new level of social interaction
added to the mix.  There will be those, however, who find the title an
invitation to tyranny.  Some nobles will begin amassing personal
fortunes, start a little "empire-building" of their own, or just engage in the
type of anti-social behavior that has been expected of the nobility
throughout history.

THE SCOUT SERVICE:  The Brave, The Resourceful, The Short Lived

The transformation of the Sylean Survey Office into the Imperial
Interstellar Scout Service is likely to be traumatic.  For centuries, the
Survey had only been called upon to keep the maps up-to-date and
monitor local conditions inside the Federation; now, they are tasked with
exploring the whole of the old Imperium!

I must point out that the Scouts have almost no information about the area
beyond Federation borders.  They may have a vague idea where Earth,
Vland, and Hub are, but beyond that, nothing.  Every system is an
unknown.  (I would like to thank Mr. Miller and Imperium Games for making
the decision not to detail the sectors, leaving that job for the
gamemaster.)

Many Scouts in the first few decades of the Imperium would be drawn
from the edge of Federation space.  Offering the chance for adventure -
with the bonus that if you live long enough, you get to keep the ship you
serve on - will attract the numbers of recruits needed for the huge job
ahead.

The opportunities for a Traveller group are obvious:  Seeking out strange
new worlds, boldly going where no man has gone... oops, don't want
Paramount mad at us..  :)

DIPLOMACY:  How much for just the planet?

One area of Traveller that I always considered sadly neglected was
diplomacy.  As a long time fan of Keith Laumer's "Retief" stories, the
thought of adventures where wits, not firepower, were the solution
intrigues me.

The Third Imperium is going to need diplomats.  As it expands, the
Imperium will contact many cultures that have drifted far from the cultural
legacy left by the Rule of Man.  Since civilization will most likely survive
on the worlds most desirable to the Imperium, skilled negotiators will be in
demand.


- ------------------------------

From: Phillip McGregor <aspqrz@sydney.DIALix.oz.au>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 19:38:44 +1000 (EST)
Subject: anyone still there?

I haven't received any stuff from the list for at least a week. Am I having
a problem here or is the list down? If it's still there, could someone email
me so I can follow up any problem this end. Thanx

Phil McGregor

- ------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #17
*********************************

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------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 17:42:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Hardcover Traveller Version.

Hi all. I'd like to know who out there has ordered a copy of the hardcover
book already, and if you know when it will arrive.  Basically, I would
LOVE to order this, but having gotten burned buying TNE hot off the
presses (ooh, check out the play on words :-), I want to hear a review of
NT before I purchase it.  Is there any chance of getting a review before
the July 1st deadline?  Can you answer this Ken?

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 17:50:22 -0400
Subject: Binary Systems.

Jamie Young asked about Planets in a binary system.  

I am a Grad Student at Georgia State Univ, and we use interferometry to
observe binary stars. I don't know that much about planets in a binary
environment, but I do know there is a conference about Formation of
Planets in Binary System later this summer, so people do believe it is possible.

>>These computer solutions show that there is no stable orbit for the small
>body (the planet).  Any planet in a binary (or higher order) system will
>describe a chaotic orbit and will eventually be ejected from the system
>altogether (after a few million orbits)

We do know that stable Three body orbits are possible, there about 600
known Multiple systems, (Systems with 3 or more stars.) Most of these
are triples, but I think they go as high as 6 stars gravitationaly
bound togethor.  But these system form hierachal systems.  For example,
in a triple system, you will have two stars orbiting close togethor,
and a third star far away.  The Third star will see the two inner stars
as one gravitational mass, and it will happily follow a two body orbit.
 (Its not a true two body orbit, it wiggles a bit, in fact people want
to use those wiggles to find planets)
 
What this all means to planets, is that you can have nice stable
planetary orbits, if the second star is far away.  I don't know off
hand how far is far away, but Traveller probably puts its binaries too
close togethor.  In my campaigns, I have never worried to much about
this, after all its a sci-fi game and sci-fi games need planets.  

>It means that
>the ~60% of star systems that are of binary or higher order cannot have
>planets 
The binary frequency depends on the age of the star, Young stars tend
to have very high frequency, over 90%, while older stars tend to be
about 1/3 binary.


Lewis Roberts



------------------------------

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X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 665

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Reflec armor
	by Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
  2) newsgroup, no thanks.
	by ibilbao@wintermute.ran.es (Ignacio Bilbao)
  3) Player Participation
	by John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
  4) Re: Player Participation
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
  5) Re: Player Participation
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 20 Apr 1996 23:35:36 -0400
From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: gdw-beta@quark.qrc.com
Subject: Reflec armor
Message-ID: <2.2.32.19960421033536.006dc27c@pop.ultranet.com>

Will The New Traveller bring back Reflec armor along with Thruster Plates?

Min/Maxing players wanna know!  Will it make crunchy, crincly noises when you 
move (or is that just the cheap stuff? :-)

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
               http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------


- ------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 16:18:19 +0100
From: ibilbao@wintermute.ran.es (Ignacio Bilbao)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: newsgroup, no thanks.
Message-ID: <199604211518.QAA08007@wintermute.ran.es>

I supose that like me there must be a lot of people in here. People=
 who
only suscribe and read the list, but never (or almost never) send=
 messages
to you. For this reason I prefer digest form intead of newsgroup,=
 it's like
a magazine (a really good magazine if I could say it).
Thanks.

On the other hand I am sending some images to Goran.Damberg@ida.utb.hb.se
(he is compiling a lot of Traveller technology) my effort is on graphics
not on text. So do not disapoint with me not to write.

Sorry for the mistakes.
Grettings from Spain.

Larga y pr=A4spera vida.
Saludos,
Ignacio Bilbao



- ------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 09:13:28 -0700 (PDT)
From: John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Player Participation
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9604210851.A8239-0100000@uclink.berkeley.edu>


Joe Walsh said: 
> 	I wonder whether any RPg company (heck, any company at all!) has 
> ever solicited major input from customers.  It seems to me that the RPG 
> industry is fortunate in that virtually all customers tend toward making 
> their own rules, settings, characters, etc., whereas typical industries 
> (oh, for instance, television manufacturers or what-have-you) have 
> customers who are far less involved with their products.

------------------------------

From: AQLH90D@prodigy.com (MR JON G FULLER)
Date: Tue, 21 May 1996 23:52:31, -0500
Subject: Re: Heat Problems in Space

/Backman wrote:
>IR stealth tech on tanks etc are distributing the heat over the 
entire
>surface of the tank and do not actually cool it down. In vacuum you 
cannot
>cool things down by any other means than radiation or exhausts, 
neither is
>good if you want to stay undetected.

Laminate the hull of the ship with superconductor.  That'll spread 
the heat quite nicely.  And, if you make it double-walled (one 
coating inside and one out), you effectively double the amount of 
time it will take for your superconductor to heat to a noticeable 
temp.  Also, this would be a good protection against massive amounts 
of radiated energy -- like lasers.  The attacker would have to dump 
_alot_ of energy into your superconductor to burn the stuff away. 

As always, only supposition.  Nobody's actually done anything like 
this yet.

Jon Fuller
  

------------------------------

From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 08:44:56 +0100
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #13

Ken Whitman writes:
> Secoundly, I would like for everyone to come up with "ONE" question that
> they would like for us to answer about ImperiumGames, T4, or Marc Miller.

I've actually got a few, but if pressed to ask just one:
	When is T4 going to be released in the UK?

but if you'll let me off with a couple more:
	Is there going to be any official presence at Euro Gen Con by
those involved in T4?
	Will the "Virus Redux" series ever be completed?

	Thanks for your indulgence,
			Chris.


------------------------------

From: Andrew Madden <amadden@pcug.org.au>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 19:34:44 +1000 (EST)
Subject: re: Neutrino detectors

>
>Anders Backman writes:
>>It takes MUCH more than a mile of lead to stop all neutrinos.
>>Todays neutrino "sensors" are totally useless in detecting fusion drives
>>etc but the neutrino sensors given in MT and TNE are supposed to do just
>>that (check out the rules), either the referee don't allow neutrinosensors
>>in his campaign or he allows them and has to come up with reasons why SDBs
>>stay undetected.
>>In my campaign deep mesonguns are huge mobile subs that run on MHD turbines
>>and when it is time for action they start their fusion plants, shoot a bit,
>>switch off and try to move to another location.
>
>      Hans Rancke wrote:
>In my campaign I apply a DM of -1 for each neutrino source within detection
>range to pin-pointing any specific neutrino source. That means that if the
>world has a few dozen fusion plants, any ship is quite safe unless the
>searcher is nearer to them than to any other neutrino source. And ships
>jumping into remote parts of a high-traffic star system can expect to
>remain undetected if they are reasonably lucky. Works quite well. 
>
I remember reading somewhere that the current output of the powerplant
affects the EM signature of the vessel; We have taken that one step further
and related that to neutrino emmision as well.  This means that a Tigress
(remember them?) running only life support (or possibly less) would barely
register as a neutrino source.  In practical terms if your ship limits its
power consumption, and generation, then the "stealth" world awaits. Very
similar to the noise problems in submarines, with similar solutions, and
LOTSA tension for the players.

APM
__________________________________________________________
Kambah Computer Services                     Andrew Madden
PO Box 1304                            amadden@pcug.org.au
Tuggeranong, ACT 2900                  Ph:  +61 6 231 5177
Australia                              Fax: +61 6 231 5576


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #18
*********************************

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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 23 May 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 019

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller in the UK
         2. Re: Whatever became of the buying survey?
         3. Re: Whatever became of the buying survey?
         4. Re: Astro-babble
         5. Bounces on the Digest...
         6. [none]
         7. Sorry...
         8. Sydney Class Heavy Cruiser
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #18
        10. [none]
        11. Re: Whatever became of the buying survey?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 14:01:00 PDT
Subject: Re: Traveller in the UK

Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com> asked:

>  When is T4 going to be released in the UK?

Best guess so far is about two weeks after the US launch (expect to see it 
by the end of August - assuming it makes it's launch date at US GenCon).

>  Is there going to be any official presence at Euro Gen Con by those 
involved in T4?

Official presence in terms of Imperium Games I don't know about, but BITS 
[British Isles Traveller Support] will be running rolling demo games, and 
there will almost certainly be a tournament too.

Also, Valkyrie magazine will be running a Traveller issue which should be 
published just in time for Euro GenCon (printers permitting). It will 
contain an absolutely cracking scenario, two or three articles and some 
other Traveller-related stuff (including a review if I can get Ken to send 
me something to review).

Kind Regards

Dave Elrick

 -----------------------------------------
        Photons have mass?  I didn't know they were Catholic!
 -----------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 10:37:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Whatever became of the buying survey?

Joe asks:

>About a month ago, someone (sorry, I don't remember who) was taking
>a  survey as to who uses which system (CT, MT, TNE), and whether
>they plan  to buy T4, etc.  Whatever became of this survey?  Are the
>results  available anywhere?

   That would be mine.  I still have the responses (around 90 of them)
sitting on my desk, waiting to be recounted and turned into data.  The
final results should be ready before June 6th.

   Preliminary findings:

   The split between CT/MT and TNE players was about 60-40 in favor
of TNE.  Many of you have modified (to varying degrees) the rules set,
regardless of what basis you use for game mechanics.

   The most popular setting by far is the Spinward Marches, with the
Solomani Rim finishing a distant second.  So many people use the
Spinward Marches (CTers, MTers, TNEers) I'm surprised that GDW even
considered releasing the Reformation Coalition material first when they
developed TNE.  Without question (IMHO) TNE was not an attempt to
``appease current players`` as at least one person has suggested, but it
was an attempt to bring in new players to the game (an attempt  that
was not as successful as perhaps it should have been).

   The most surprising result was the answer to the question regarding
whether or not people were considering the purchase of the new
Traveller.  My theory going into this exercise is that there would be a
small group of people who had been around Traveller for a while, who
were still die hard fans of the game, but had had enough, and while
they still planned on playing some version of it, it would be T4.  If that
group does exist, they didn't respond to my survey.  The overwhelming
majority of you plan on buying at least some of the new IG's Traveller
products, and many of you plan on buying all of them sight unseen.
While there was a significant percentage of you that still want to see
more before you will consider a purchase, *no one* ruled it completely
out.

   As for the date the respondents said they started playing Traveller,
most of you said that you started playing in the early 80s (for some
reason the year 1982 was very popular--what was released that year
Traveller-wise?).  Significant was the drop off of new players after
1985-86.  Apparently MegaTraveller brought very few new players into
the game.  It appears that were more people that took up Traveller during
the TNE era than the MT era, but the number were not particularly large.

   Prelimary conclusion: MegaTraveller did more to kill GDW, than TNE
(though I'm sure at least one of you will say that while MT put the
company on life support, TNE pulled the plug); and Traveller fans are
probably the most loyal in the gaming industry--or perhaps the most
stubborn. <g>

   More later.

Regards,

Harold





------------------------------

From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:39:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Whatever became of the buying survey?

Harold Hale said:
> The most popular setting by far is the Spinward Marches, with 
> the Solomani Rim finishing a distant second.  So many people use 
> the Spinward Marches (CTers, MTers, TNEers) I'm surprised that GDW 
> even considered releasing the Reformation Coalition material first 
> when they developed TNE.  

Dave Nilsen said that he came to the conclusion that GDW was screwed when they 
issued the Regency sourcebook, for which everyone had been clamoring, but the 
distributors didn't pick it up in any significant quantities.  [My guess is 
the distributors had all their ready cash sunk into CCGs.]  After the TSR 
debacle, GDW just didn't have the reserves to continue.  

> Without question (IMHO) TNE was not an attempt to ``appease 
> current players`` as at least one person has suggested, but it was 
> an attempt to bring in new players to the game (an attempt that was not 
> as successful as perhaps it should have been)....Significant was the 
> drop off of new players after 1985-86.  Apparently MegaTraveller 
> brought very few new players into the game.  It appears that were 
> more people that took up Traveller during the TNE era than the MT era, 
> but the number were not particularly large. 

I can't comment about other people, but TNE was what got me interested in 
Traveller.  I found both CT and MT uninspiring (although I liked 2300 a lot). 
Then, towards the end of MT, I began finding things I liked (the Rebellion 
Sourcebook, Starship Operators Manual, Survival Margin, the reissue of 
Imperium).  The more I read about TNE, the more excited I became.  [Incidently 
I claim to be the first person in the world to buy a copy of TNE -- I handed 
the money to Dave Nilsen while standing in the GDW warehouse the morning it 
shipped.  The distributors didn't have it yet.] After buying TNE, I began 
going back and purchasing all the CT and MT stuff, and now I have about 80% of 
the MT stuff and 70% of the CT stuff, including all of the boardgames.

For the record, though, I'm not much of an RPG player (although I'm certainly 
a buyer).  I'm an SF and history buff, so RPGs often make good reading for me.  
Most of my gaming is historical and SF boardgaming, although I also play SF 
and naval miniatures.  My three favorite games of all time are probably Space 
Hulk, Triplanetary, and Imperium -- the last two being "proto-Traveller" games 
put out by GDW.

Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
someday agree with something I say.


------------------------------

From: bmac@igpp.llnl.gov (Bruce Macintosh)
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 09:05:39 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Astro-babble

Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett wrote
>Actually, I recall reading that planets within 1/3 of the distance between
>the binaries (i.e. <2 AU if the separation between the stars is 6 AU) should
>have stable orbits.  So the range available is limited, not eliminated.
>Of course, gas giants could still form and cause trouble for more inward
>accretions (e.g. Jupiter and our asteroid belt).  So habitable planets
>in binary systems are unlikely, but not impossible.

Joesph is correct (though I'm not completely sure about the 1/3 figure.) 
There's a similar set of stable orbits far away from the stars if the two
stars are very close together.

The mean separation for binary star systems is around 40 AU, which means
orbits in the habitable zone of either star are stable.  The distribution of
separations is very flat, though, with lots of binaries that are within a 
few AU and lots that are separated by a thousand AU.

There's some evidence that the distribution of orbits and/or frequency of 
binaries changes with age (young stars seem to have an excess of close
companions). The overall effects of this on planet formation are pretty
poorly understood (we don't even understand where all the binaries come from,
let alone planets...) Traveller is probably as good a guess as any. It's worth
noting that the extrasolar jovian planets recently discovered by Marcy et al 
were much closer to their stars than anyone expected them to be - planet
formation is a really fuzzy subject right now.

Sorry if I'm babbling - binary star systems and brown dwarfs were my
thesis topic.

Bruce Macintosh		Institute for Geophysics and Planetary Physics
bmac@igpp.llnl.gov	Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 09:22:05 -0800
Subject: Bounces on the Digest...

Rob,

Is there anything that can be done on the digests about this month 
old mail appearing on them.  I know you said it would probably clear 
up of its own accord about a week ago, but it really doesn't look 
like it is...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:04:00 -0800
Subject: [none]

subscribe traveller
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 11:54:20 -0800
Subject: Sorry...

Hey gang...
Sorry about the "subscribe messages"  They should have been sent to majordomo...

Egg on face... :-(

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "David A. Nelson" <34TYHPE@CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU>
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 16:52:14 EDT
Subject: Sydney Class Heavy Cruiser

To any one who still cares,

>From Janes' fighting Starships 1102

Solomani Sydney class Heavy Cruiser
      The Sydney class heavy cruiser is a modificaiton of the Scharhorst heavy
Cruiser design.  The Sydney replaces the Scharorst massive PAW with a meson gun
, and improves the ships Meson screens.   The Sydney class does not have the
 fuel shuttle or the fuel purificaiton plant that the Scharhorst has.  This was
 done in order to improve the Sydney's meson gun and Meson screen.  Althought d
ependent on tankers, and with it limited jump capability, the Sydeny class crui
ser can make its presents felt in any fleet action.
     The first of the Sydeny class cruiser was seen in a small boarder clashbet
ween the Solomaniand an Aslan Fleet.  Since that time Sydney class cruiser have
 begun to appear in small numbers throughtout solomani space.  There have uncon
firmed report that one of the ship yards producting the Sydeny has retooled.
Intelligence sources have speculated that this may mean the Sydney class main
gun may be soon upgraded to TL-15 standards.

SYDNEY CLASS HEAVY CRUISER
General Data
Displacement: 50000              Hull armor: 280
length: 448                      Volume: 700000
Price: 141401.38MCR              Target Size: M
Configuration: open frame USL    Tech LEVEL: 14
Mass (loaded/Unloaded): 834870/800101

ENGINNERING DATA
Powerplant: TL-14 132285mw fusion Powerplnat (100.06mw/ per hit),
               1 mouth duration
Jump Performance: 3 (140000m, for max jump)
G-rating: 5g (25000mw per G)
G-turns: 50G-turns (100g-turns using jump fuel, 3125m each)
Fuel Tanks: 297554m of fuel each
maint: 30067
ELECTRONICS
Computer: 6xTL-14 Mob Fb Computer (1mw each)
commo: 6x maser (**, .6mw each)
       2x radio (10hex, 10mw each)
Avionics: none
Sensors: 2x 240000km folding EMS array (8hex, .3mw each)
         2x 180000km fixed EMS array (6hex, .2mw each)
         4x 480000km Active EMS array (16hex, 25mw each)
         4x 300000km ladar (10hex, 2.5mw each)
ecm/eccm: 10hex EMS area Jammer, (10hex, 108mw) emm package (700mw)\
Controls: Bridge with 325 work stations, auxiliary bridgew with 325 work statio
ns, flag bridge with 9 workstations, fire control with 20 workatations, 1102 ot
her workstations.

ARMAMENT
Offensive: 1x TL-14 81320 Mj Meson Gun (loc: spine arc:1 mw: crew: 508);
           4x 10 ton missles bays ( loc:13,13,14,14, 1mw each)
           20x TL-14 150mj Laser turrets (locs: 10 at 13, 10 at 14, arcs: all
                          42mw each {-2 diff mods} crew none, fired from MFD)
Defensive: 50x TL-14 sandcaset turrets (locs: 25 at loc 13, 25 at loc 14; crew:
                      1 each; MW:1 each 2d6x6 per hit 40 cans each arcs: all)
           TL-14 810mw meson screen (pv=996); crew 30
Fire directors: 20x TL-15 beam/missle MFD (5 diff mods mls, 10 hex, 1.77mw each
                                    1 crew each)
81320mj Meson Gun  10: 1424  20:712 40: 356  80:178
150mj laser:       2: (1/10)31   4:(1/10)31  8:(1/10)31   10:(1/10)31
ACCOMMODATIONS:
Life support: extended (87.75mw); Gravitic compensatort (5g, 2183.75)
                      no life support for fuel tanks
CREW: 2720 (1102x eng, 8x electronics, 4x maneuver, 608x gunnery 220x maintenac
                     651x command, 91x stewards, 27x medical, 9x fleet command)
Crew accommodations: 5x large staterooms (single occupnacy, .001mw each,)
                     5x large staterooms (double occupancy, .001mw each)
                     308 small staterooms (double occupancy, .0005wm each)
                     300 small staterooms (multiple ocupancy, .0005wm each)
Passager accommodations: none
Other facilities: 5x sickbay (.8mw each); 2x machine shops (1mw each) 2x electr
onics shops (.6mw each)
Cargo:  104m with 5 large cargo harches, plus 50 missiles in storage.
small craft and launch facilities: 4x 50 ton launchers, 4x 10 ton launches
Airlocks: 500

notes: there is no life support of any of the fuel tnaks the flight crew of the
 auxiliary ship was done away with by making the stewards fly the support ships
.  All of the laser turrets can be fired locally but are general only fired fro
m the MFDS.

SYSTEM HIT CAPCITY: Mesongun: 2231H; Misslebay: 1H;l LT: 1h; MS: 1200H; MD: 124
H; JD: 700H; pp 13222H; pems: 1H; Pemsa: 1H; emm: 70H; emmr: 700h; EMSjammer: 1
H; electronics shop: 1H; AG: 87H; SSr 2h; LLR: 1H; Ls 774H; all other system 1h
 each.

Area   surface hit      internal explosion
1-2    ant             1-9 MG, 10-17 electroncs, 18-20 quters
3-4    1-14 ant        1-9mg. 10-13 electrons, 14-20 quters-
5-8    ANT             1-10 MG, 11 QUATERS, 12-20 HOLD
9-10                   1-11mg, 12-20 HOLD
11-12                  1-8mg, 9-20 HOLD
13-14                  1-8mg, 9 WEAPONS, 10-13 ENG, 14-20 HOLD
15                     1-10MG, 11-15 ENG, 16-20 HOld
16-20  1-19 emmr       1-13MG, 14-20 ENG


David Nelson
             "I't O.K. we're staff"


                                        "all alone in the night....."

------------------------------

From: Noel Kelly <nkelly@pcug.org.au>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 08:25:32 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #18

Dear Ken -

I probably have a top 5 list of q's for Marc, but I'm hoping that
others will ask most of the "Whither Traveller"-type ones.

My question is:
"What are the differences in circumstances that have caused you to
return to producing Traveller now as opposed to when you left GDW
a few years ago?"

If you think this is meant to be a sneaky way of asking, "what 
happened back then" and "why now", you would be correct.

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
PS: were the "Whither Traveller" survey results useful?


------------------------------

From: uucp@uu2.psi.com
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Subject: [none]

Subject: UUCP job killed
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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 666
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X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 666

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 665
	by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  2) Re: MM on aol and not here
	by merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  3) Re: rules equivalencies
	by Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
  4) RE: New product feedback
	by ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
  5) Marc Miller and Imperium Games
	by a.s.lilly@bnr.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
  6) RE: Valk's Traveller Issue
	by David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
  7) Re: Newsgroups vs. Mailing Lists.
	by David Johnson <dave@neotokyo.compulink.co.uk>
  8) Re: Player Participation
	by Paragon369@aol.com
  9) Re: Player Participation
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
 10) RE: Valk's Traveller Issue
	by David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
 11) Reality outstrips SF -- again
	by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
 12) Re: Reality outstrips SF -- again
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 19:13:58 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 665
Message-ID: <199604220213.TAA13759@mom.hooked.net>

At 09:33 PM 4/21/96 -0400; Joe Walsh wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Apr 1996, David J. Golden wrote:
>
>>         Wouldn't it be nice if they actually talked to us,
>> instead of restricting it to those already on AOL? Even one-way
>> (here's what we're doing; don't call us, we'll call you) would be
>> nice.
>
>	I'd go for that.  Heck, I've seen three or four requests on this 
>mailing list and xboat for the Marc Miller interview that occurred on AOL 
>a few weeks ago.  If MM or Imp Games had bothered to log that to disk, 
>then upload it here (even unedited), it would have been nice.

Actually, I got a short response from Marc Miller to my essay.  (My wife
claims that I looked like "I had gone to see a department store Santa, and
he told me to take all the toys".

In his all-to-brief note; he suggested another effect that brought about the
Third Imperium's rapid ascendancy: the development of tech 12.. I'm mulling
that one over.  Any gearheads want to break down the advantages of TL12 over
TL11?  He mentioned something about improved power sources...

>	I fully understand that Marc and Imp. Games have their hands full 
>trying to get the game out by GenCon.

Very true.  My email to various members of the design team have all been
answered politely, but briefly.  Let them work, I say.
# ---------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry           dberry@hooked.net  #
#   Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru  #
#                                                #
#  "Liberty consists in doing what one desires"  #
#                             -John Stuart Mill  #
# ---------------------------------------------- #


- ------------------------------

Date: Sun, 21 Apr 1996 21:08:39 -0600 (MDT)
From: merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: MM on aol and not here
Message-ID: <9604220308.AA01458@Rt66.com>

 

------------------------------

From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 23:51:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Whatever became of the buying survey?

From:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM" 22-MAY-1996 08:01:19.93
To:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Whatever became of the buying survey?

Date: Wed, 22 May 1996 10:37:17 -0400
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@smtpgate.read.tasc.com>
Subject: Re: Whatever became of the buying survey?
Sender: owner-traveller@MPGN.COM

Joe asks:

>About a month ago, someone (sorry, I don't remember who) was taking
>a  survey as to who uses which system (CT, MT, TNE), and whether
>they plan  to buy T4, etc.  Whatever became of this survey?  Are the
>results  available anywhere?

   Preliminary findings:

<Deleted> 

   As for the date the respondents said they started playing Traveller,
most of you said that you started playing in the early 80s (for some
reason the year 1982 was very popular--what was released that year
Traveller-wise?).  

Harold
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I came on board in '82 & the reason for me was that SPI went bankrupt early
that year. I had been a heavy customer of theirs for almost a decade & it was 
their 'Universe' sci-fi rpg that actually got me into the genre. Casting about 
for a replacement, I came upon CT, remembered GDW as a good solid wargame com-
pany (I already had purchased 'Imperium' years earlier, along with some other
of their products) & decided to go with them.

Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu





------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #19
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 23 May 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 020

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. New Traveller, Launch in the UK
         2. Interview Question for Marc Miller
         3. Replacements for NT/T4 acronyms.
         4. Harold's Infamous Buying Survey.
         5. Re: Replacements for NT/T4 acronyms.
         6. RE: Harold's Infamous Buying Survey. 
         7. The what Design System are you using Poll
         8. Poll
         9. A Question for Marc Miller
        10. Re: The what Design System are you using Poll
        11. RE: (Fwd) The what Design System are you using Poll 
        12. Planet of the Flea and Mary Lou Retton Clones  (in 3D)
        13. MT killed TNE?
        14. Re: A Question for Marc Miller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:44:21 +0100
Subject: New Traveller, Launch in the UK

RELEASE OF THE NEW TRAVELLER AT EURO GEN CON
- --------------------------------------------

Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>, asked in Traveller-digest V1996 #13:

>I've actually got a few, but if pressed to ask just one:
>	When is T4 going to be released in the UK?
>...
>	Is there going to be any official presence at Euro Gen Con by
>those involved in T4?

BITS (British Isles Traveller Support) will be supporting Imperium Games by
launching the new version of Traveller at Euro Gen Con at 
Loughborough (September 5th-8th). We will be providing participation and 
demonstration games throughout the event, in addition to running 
THE TRAVELLER TOURNAMENT on the Saturday.

Exact details (scenarios, etc.) are still under discussion with Ken Whitman,
but we're hoping that we'll have pretty much the same setup advertised for
the US Gen Con on the Imperium Games web pages (http://www.ImperiumGames.com/)

If you want 4 days of solid Traveller, get yourself to EGC!

BITS is also intending to release several supplements at EGC, including a
sector-spanning adventure and an extensive bibliography of just about every
Traveller product ever released.

When I last talked to Ken he said it was unlikely any of the team could make
it to EGC. Not too surprising given the pretty tight schedules they have set
themselves for releases after August!

REVIEWS OF THE NEW TRAVELLER
- ----------------------------

Alpha or beta copies of the rules may be available in the near future but
I'm not quite certain how widely these will be distributed. Needless to say,
if a review of some sort is possible (i.e. it can be agreed with Ken, Marc,
etc.) then I will post one.

I can tell you that the task system has changed. Very briefly, it has drawn
together parts of MT and TNE but using an innovative dicing technique.

Andy Lilly
Coordinating BITS (British Isles Traveller Support)


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 07:24:12 -0800
Subject: Interview Question for Marc Miller

Ken,

Here's my question for Marc Miller.  It's kind of a two parter.

Recognizing that Traveller is first and foremost a pencil, paper and 
dice game, it perhaps more than most other RPG's makes heavy demands on 
referees of a bookkeeping nature.  Is there any plan afoot, for 
either Imperium Games or a third party licensee to make software 
supporting the game, such as a ship/vehicle building system, world 
generation in the vein of World Builders Handbook, cargo system 
or anything else?  Will IG be defining standard data formats for others 
to use in designing such software?

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 10:50:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Replacements for NT/T4 acronyms.

Hi all.  Okay, so this is a bit trivial, but I would like to suggest some
possible replacements for the acronyms we've been using for the new
Traveller.  Some people don't like NT because it reminds them too much of
Microsoft, and others don't like T4 because it reminds them of Revenue
Canada :-) (plus it's sort of innaccurate).  So, here are some
possibilities.  

MMT:  Mark Miller's TRAVELLER.  This is what Imperium Games seems to be 
calling the new version, so maybe this would work.  Or does this seem too 
much like MegaMegaTraveller :-) ?

IGT:  Imperium Games TRAVELLER.  It won't be confused with any of the 
present acronyms and hopefully it can also stand for "Incredibly Great 
Traveller" :-).

FFT:  Far Future TRAVELLER.  Possibility of being confused with FF&S?  
(Yes, you'd have to be a dunderhead, but never underestimate the power of 
human stupidity).

	Despite my flippant tone, I really would like people to consider 
these. I think it would be nice to agree on what to call this phoenix.

Happy Travelling,
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 11:09:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Harold's Infamous Buying Survey.

Hi All.  Just thought I'd throw in a few thoughts about the buying survey.
First of all I'd like to encourage Harold Hale to get that data ready. 
I'm dying to see it, and I'm sure Ken and the IG staff wouldn't mind 
getting a copy.

- --------------
  The most surprising result was the answer to the question regarding
whether or not people were considering the purchase of the new
Traveller.  My theory going into this exercise is that there would be a
small group of people who had been around Traveller for a while, who
were still die hard fans of the game, but had had enough, and while
they still planned on playing some version of it, it would be T4.  If that
group does exist, they didn't respond to my survey.  The overwhelming
majority of you plan on buying at least some of the new IG's Traveller
products, and many of you plan on buying all of them sight unseen.
While there was a significant percentage of you that still want to see
more before you will consider a purchase, *no one* ruled it completely
out.
- -------------

	I don't see why this result is surprising at all.  So far, almost
everyone I've talked to or emailed with has reacted positively to the
things they've heard about NT/T4.  I personally know at least 5 people who
refused to buy TNE but plan to come back for NT/T4.  Phil MacGregor even
saw a draft of the equipment section and seems to have given it his
hard-gained approval (Not a flame Phil, but you do seem to have, shall we
say, a knack for incicive critique? :-). 
	Everything I've seen indicates that IG is a company that will 
love Traveller as much as its fans (unlike GDW, who seemed reluctant 
about the whole thing).  And I am absolutely impressed by the team 
they've assembled and most (though not all, of course) of the ideas they 
have put forth.  I would say this is a common opinion among the Traveller 
devotees I know.
	I would say that I've only seen a minority of TNE blowhards 
(diehards! I meant diehards! :-) who absolutely refuse to go back to the 
so-called "70's era rules" (whatever that means).  And even long-time 
TNE'ers are considering the NT/T4 project. 

Okay, I time to don the asbestos underwear...
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 08:14:03 -0800
Subject: Re: Replacements for NT/T4 acronyms.

On 23 May 96 at 10:50, Charles Collin spewed:

> Hi all.  Okay, so this is a bit trivial, but I would like to suggest some
> possible replacements for the acronyms we've been using for the new
> Traveller.  Some people don't like NT because it reminds them too much of
> Microsoft, and others don't like T4 because it reminds them of Revenue
> Canada :-) (plus it's sort of innaccurate).  So, here are some
> possibilities.  
> 
> MMT:  Mark Miller's TRAVELLER.  This is what Imperium Games seems to be 
> calling the new version, so maybe this would work.  Or does this seem too 
> much like MegaMegaTraveller :-) ?
> 
IG's website is calling it Marc Miller's Traveller.  I'd suggest MMT.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 11:41:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Harold's Infamous Buying Survey. 

In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 23 May 1996 11: 09:45 EDT
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 11:41:38 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: 	I would say that I've only seen a minority of TNE blowhards 
: (diehards! I meant diehards! :-) who absolutely refuse to go back to the 
: so-called "70's era rules" (whatever that means).  And even long-time 
: TNE'ers are considering the NT/T4 project. 

I agree with you about being excited about the IG team.  They've
really jumped on this one.  I get really good vibes from them.  I'm
sure that T4 will be fantastic.

As for being a blowhard...  I don't think that most people are worried
about the mechanics.  The MT task system will forever remain as one of
my favorite ones, so going to one more MT-like is a "good thing" (tm).
I think what most the the TNE people are upset about is the lack of
something like FF&S.  It's hard to have the world in your hands and
then have it taken away.  8(

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 09:58:46 -0800
Subject: The what Design System are you using Poll

On 23 May 96 at 11:41, That Computer Guy spewed:

> 
> I think what most the the TNE people are upset about is the lack of
> something like FF&S.  It's hard to have the world in your hands and
> then have it taken away.  8(

I genuinely wonder how many people actually use FF&S.  Not own it, 
but actively use it.  I don't mind bookkeeping, but I took 1 look at FF&S, 
and thought, "Gee, with my spare time, it'd take me about 2 weeks to generate 
a ship..."  Not to mention having to design turrets and ammunition for the thing...  

Sorry, but IMNSHO, science fiction is high adventure, contacts with 
aliens, alien artifacts, starship battles...alien worlds and 
cultures, not a geeky discussion over HEPlaR vs. Thrusters, neither of which 
exist, and most likely won't exist in our lifetimes...

True, somebody could design stuff with an FF&S Lite, but then you 
might as well go ahead and use a different, less comprehensive design 
system...

Accordingly, I think it'd be worthwhile to take a poll  (OH, GOD, NOT 
ANOTHER ONE...)  :-)

The What Design System Are You Using Poll:
1. Are you currently playing Traveller using Traveller: The New Era 
rules, regardless of setting?

2.  Do you own a copy of FF&S (Fire, Fusion & Steel)?

3. Have you ever used FF&S to design a starship, weapon, vehicle or 
other items?

4. Have you ever used the posted FF&S Lite rules to design items?

5.  Do you own the Megatraveller Rules?

6. Have you ever designed a starship, vehicle, or small craft with 
the MegaTraveller rules?

7. Do you own a version of the Classic Traveller rules (Traveller 
Book, Little black books, Deluxe Traveller, Starter Traveller)?

8.  Do you have Book 5, High Guard?

9.  Do you have Striker?

10.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 2, Starships?

11.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 5, High Guard?

12. Have you ever designed vehicles or other items using Striker?

13. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
preference for designing starships: (Book 2, Starships, Book 5, High 
Guard, MegaTraveller, FF&S)

14. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
preference for designing vehicles (Striker, MegaTraveller, FF&S)

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 10:01:26 -0800
Subject: Poll

I forgot to mention.

Please e-mail responses to me at 
sdollar@goodnet.com

I'll take responses until May 31st, and post results on or around 
June 7th.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 14:53:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: A Question for Marc Miller

Mr. Whitman, 

I am taking you up on your offer (forwarding one question per person to
Marc Miller).  My question is actually two questions in one, but both
parts involve the same subject, namely, the acquisition of skills and
levels (primarily during character generation).  

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Miller, 

I have been a fan of Traveller since 1979.  Traveller is one of my two
favorite RPG's.  I am very interested in seeing Traveller continue in the
gaming community and market.  I have the following questions regarding the
new version you intend to publish this August: 

1) Will characters in academic / non-military careers be *as* *skilled*
(total # of skills/levels; max skill level; etc.; not necessarily the
same specific *skills*) as military / non-academic (i.e., *traditional*
adventuring) careers?  If not, *why* not?  I would suggest that a
"veteran" of 20+ years in academia be *as* *proficient* in academic
circles as a 20-year military veteran would be in military matters.  

2) Will characters be able to get "hobby" skills and/or default skills
easily during character generation?  In "Real Life (tm)"  :-)   I'd say
that I picked up as many "skills and levels" (if you will) from my hobbies
and pasttimes as from my training and work experience during my 12 years in
the Air Force.  Consider the following example: 

	*SET GEEK-MODE = ON
	*INSERT CHARACTER-WRITEUP = MYSELF

	UPP: 5669A7
	ex-Air Force; 3 terms (age 31); final rank: SSgt (E-5)
	Skills: Computer-3, Gaming-3, Mathematics-3, Cooking-2, History-2,
Admin-1, Disguise-1, Ground Vehicle (Wheeled)-1, Handgun-1, Instruction-1,
Leader-1, Physics-1, Rifle-1, Acting-0, Chemistry-0, Hunting-0, Shotgun-0

	*SET GEEK-MODE = OFF


Thank you. 

Franklin W. Cain
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Whitman, 

I have a further comment for you.  

Now that IG has a web page, I *strongly* advise you to borrow a strategy
from Steve Jackson Games.  They post material onto their web pages
(appropriately safeguarded with "registered/trademarked materials; copy &
die" warnings :-) *before* sending it to the publishers, so as to allow
their fans to playtest, proofread, spell-check, grammar-check, etc., the
material *at NO COST* to SJGames!  

*PLEASE* look at the old errata sheets (*plural*!) for Mega-Traveller. 
Look at the errata sheets for TNE and FFS.  Then, look at what happened to
GDW.  I *know* all the fans (OK, just *most* of them :-) here on the lists
would *love* the chance to help you make the best Traveller products
possible.  

Please consider this.  Thank you.  

Franklin W. Cain

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 13:10:44 -0600
Subject: Re: The what Design System are you using Poll

At 09:58 am 5/23/96 -0800, "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> wrote:
>I genuinely wonder how many people actually use FF&S.  Not own it, 
>but actively use it.  I don't mind bookkeeping, but I took 1 look at FF&S, 
>and thought, "Gee, with my spare time, it'd take me about 2 weeks to generate 
>a ship..."  Not to mention having to design turrets and ammunition for the
thing...  

        Turrets & ammo are mostly predesigned unless you want something
non-standard; even so it takes me a few days, not weeks. Say 4 to 6 hours.

>The What Design System Are You Using Poll:
>1. Are you currently playing Traveller using Traveller: The New Era 
>rules, regardless of setting?

        Yes/no ... I'm playing around with it, but have no current gaming group

>2.  Do you own a copy of FF&S (Fire, Fusion & Steel)?

        Yes

>3. Have you ever used FF&S to design a starship, weapon, vehicle or 
>other items?

        Yes: starship, small craft, starship lasers, gauss weapons

>4. Have you ever used the posted FF&S Lite rules to design items?

        ? Didn't know there were posted rules.

>5.  Do you own the Megatraveller Rules?

        Yes

>6. Have you ever designed a starship, vehicle, or small craft with 
>the MegaTraveller rules?

        Yes

>7. Do you own a version of the Classic Traveller rules (Traveller 
>Book, Little black books, Deluxe Traveller, Starter Traveller)?

        LBBs

>8.  Do you have Book 5, High Guard?

        Yes

>9.  Do you have Striker?

        Yes

>10.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 2, Starships?

        Yes

>11.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 5, High Guard?

        Yes

>12. Have you ever designed vehicles or other items using Striker?

        Yes

>13. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
>preference for designing starships: (Book 2, Starships, Book 5, High 
>Guard, MegaTraveller, FF&S)

        FF&S, hands down. More complex, but better detail and verisimilitude

>14. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
>preference for designing vehicles (Striker, MegaTraveller, FF&S)

        FF&S

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 16:13:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: (Fwd) The what Design System are you using Poll 

In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 23 May 1996 10: 37:50 -0800
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 16:13:22 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: > I think what most the the TNE people are upset about is the lack of
: > something like FF&S.  It's hard to have the world in your hands and
: > then have it taken away.  8(
: 
: I genuinely wonder how many people actually use FF&S.  Not own it, but
: actively use it.  I don't mind bookkeeping, but I took 1 look at FF&S,
: and thought, "Gee, with my spare time, it'd take me about 2 weeks to
: generate a ship..." Not to mention having to design turrets and
: ammunition for the thing... 

People must be using it otherwise they wouldn't be complaining about
it.  I found it no more cumbersome than any other design system once I
got the hang of it (and yes, all design systems take some getting used
to).

: Sorry, but IMNSHO, science fiction is high adventure, contacts with 
: aliens, alien artifacts, starship battles...alien worlds and 
: cultures, not a geeky discussion over HEPlaR vs. Thrusters, neither of which 
: exist, and most likely won't exist in our lifetimes...

I'd say the same thing, but then why do people complain so much about
how accurate is the system generation rules?  Why do the combat rules
work the way they do?  What about character generation?  The fact of
the matter is that rules make a game and the people playing that game
make it an adventure.  It's all the same argument, people just tend to
not care about something unless it's what they're interested in.

: True, somebody could design stuff with an FF&S Lite, but then you 
: might as well go ahead and use a different, less comprehensive design 
: system...

FF&S Lite is an idea to make FF&S feel more like the old design
sequences.

I think that FF&S is greatly stigmatized because instead of being in
the form of basic and then advanced, it was just advanced.  My best
friend said it looked like an old calculas textbook to him (but then
again, he used WBH to create a planet of Flea and Mary Lou Retton
clones--he likes to make planets and systems, and I like to make
gadgets and ships).

Then again, for MT, to be able to create anything that I could with
FF&S, I had to own the Referee's Manual, COACC, Hard Times, and a buch
of issues of Challenge which had low-tech design systems in them.  And
BTRC's 3G^3 for weapon design.  I think I preferred the convenience of
having them all in one place with FF&S.  Ask William Hostman about the
package I sent him.

Why should I have to create?  Why shouldn't I?  I like to be able to
create items that are consistent to game universe.  With no guidelines
this can't really happen.  After all, my def of TL15 and yours could
be radically different.

As an aside, I remember back in 1988 people bitching and moaning that
MT's design system clobbered their HG designs.  No longer could you
have a 6G, J4, outta this world agility ship in under 50 tons.  Man,
there were a lot of unhappy people out there.  And many of them got
used to MT and then became unhappy when there was yet another design
system to get used to.

One last rant.  I don't see why people argue over the differences in
technology.  Let's look at some of the changes over the years.  100
ton limit for starships, HEPlaR vs Thrusters, jump fuel usage.  In CT,
I don't ever remember seeing a 100 ton limit, as far as I know, it was
added in MT.  All of the sudden it's an issue to CanonMongers?  Why,
because it doesn't fit in with TypoTraveller or because it's part of
TNE.  What will we do if T4 has no 100 ton limit.  HEPlaR!  What a
great subject.  I once asked someone why they don't just use Thrusters
instead.  There are even design rules for them in FF&S.  I mean we all
know that HEPlaR was just a tool to make space combat more exciting.
And it's not like every player follows the rules religiously and
doesn't change anything to their liking.  His response basically was
that if he use Thrusters, he wouldn't have anything to bitch about
with TNE.  And fuel use.  We do all know that you use all your jump
fuel whether you jump the full capacity of your drive or partial
capacity.  However no one seemed to mind this CHANGE IN CANON.  That's
probably due to the fact that many people did away with this
restriction under CT and MT.

Take it easy, and remember I'm not really defending TNE per se, but
rather pointing out how people always look for something to complain
about.

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 22:13:39 GMT
Subject: Planet of the Flea and Mary Lou Retton Clones  (in 3D)

On Thu, 23 May 1996 16:13:23 -0400 (EDT), you wrote:

=> I think that FF&S is greatly stigmatized because instead of being in
=> the form of basic and then advanced, it was just advanced.  My best
=> friend said it looked like an old calculas textbook to him (but then
=> again, he used WBH to create a planet of Flea and Mary Lou Retton
=> clones--

Thanks for the laugh... I needed that  8-)

=> One last rant.  I don't see why people argue over the differences in
=> technology.  Let's look at some of the changes over the years.  100
=> ton limit for starships, HEPlaR vs Thrusters, jump fuel usage.  In CT,
=> I don't ever remember seeing a 100 ton limit, as far as I know, it was
=> added in MT.

The definition is given on page 12 of Book 2: Starships.  "...  A ship is any
vessel of 100 tons or more.  A starship is a ship which has jump drives and can
travel on interstellar voyages.  A non-starship is a ship without jump drives.
A small craft is any vessel under 100 tons; all small craft are incapable of
jump."

And I disagree that "rules make a game."  The proper wording might be "a game is
only as good as its REFEREE" (or at least his or her interpretation of those
rules).

=> We do all know that you use all your jump
=> fuel whether you jump the full capacity of your drive or partial
=> capacity.  However no one seemed to mind this CHANGE IN CANON.  That's
=> probably due to the fact that many people did away with this
=> restriction under CT and MT.

Damn right!

=> Take it easy, and remember I'm not really defending TNE per se, but
=> rather pointing out how people always look for something to complain
=> about.

I wanna complain... I think they should call it Traveller '96   8-)

jlindsay@direct.ca   Vancouver, British Columbia

63 Turbo Type I, pushing 250+ bhp (some day....)

------------------------------

From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 19:02:17 -0400
Subject: MT killed TNE?

>   Prelimary conclusion: MegaTraveller did more to kill GDW, than TNE
>(though I'm sure at least one of you will say that while MT put the
>company on life support, TNE pulled the plug); and Traveller fans are
>probably the most loyal in the gaming industry--or perhaps the most
>stubborn. <g>
   Every retailer I've talked to (about 30 all told) has said that their
reluctance to carry ANY materials with the TRAVELLER name on them stems from
MegaTraveller. Apparently, they had a hard time moving the stuff. Two years
ago, I went into a hobby shop in Grand Rapids and was AMAZED at the MT stuff
they still had on the shelves; Vilani and Vargr, for instance. The stuff was
marked 50% off and they STILL couldn't move it. The reason, when I asked,
was "Well, MegaTraveller was so full of mistakes that everybody assumed all
the other stuff would be, too." Now that's a spurious assumption, especially
in regard to the stuff that DGP put out, but that seemed to be the prevalent
opinion among all the retailers. Many people makr GDW's decline as starting
with MT. So, one could blame the death of GDW on MegaTraveller (among many
other things), and not TNE.
   I'm hoping that something can be done to de-stigmatize the name
"TRAVELLER" so that the new game doesn't suffer too. Maybe the fact that
it's not GDW making it will help (although I've already run into one guy who
said "GDW, Imperium Games...they're all the same guys anyway". of course,
this guy is a buffoon...)

------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 19:34:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: A Question for Marc Miller

Quoth Franklin W. Cain:
> Now that IG has a web page, I *strongly* advise you to borrow a strategy
> from Steve Jackson Games.  They post material onto their web pages...
> ...*before* sending it to the publishers, so as to allow their fans to 
> playtest, proofread, spell-check, grammar-check, etc., the material *at 
> NO COST* to SJGames!

This is somewhat incorrect.  Playtest drafts of many SJG products are posted
on the Web, but are accessible only to members of the Illuminati Online 
(io.com) online service.  (Though, with telnet accounts available at $10
per month, that isn't hard to do).  I shudder to think of making drafts
available for free to everyone in the online universe....

Also, the primary purpose of the online playtest files is NOT for fan-
assisted proofreading, but rather to have as many eyes as possible to
check for agreement of new material with older published matter, unseen
holes or munchkin-bait in prospective rules, alternative perspectives
on, e.g. historical data and representations, etc.

SJG hires competent editors to proofread products.  The fans have little 
or nothing to do with it.  And that's what IG ought to do as well.

(Proviso here: I don't work for SJG, except as occasional convention
booth-staff and correspondent on rules issues, product aims, etc.)

I _would_ agree, though, that IG should post "teasers" -- excerpts from 
upcoming products -- on their Web page, as well as, perhaps, making
available unpublished material like tournament adventures.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #20
*********************************

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Traveller-digest            Friday, 24 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 021

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. [none]
         2. Response to the WDSAYU Poll
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #20
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #20
         5. Re: MT killed TNE?
         6. Survey Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

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Subject: [none]

Subject: UUCP job killed
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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 667
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			    TRAVELLER Digest 667

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: rules equivalencies
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
  2) Re: TRAVELLER digest 666
	by "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
  3) Re: New Product Feedback
	by dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin)
  4) Machine guns & bunny deathfest
	by Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au
  5) Re: New Product Feedback
	by Paragon369@aol.com
  6) Toolbox
	by mickb@thehub.com.au (Michael Bailey)
  7) RE: Valk's Traveller Issue
	by David Elrick <Dave.Elrick@ps.co.uk>
  8) Re: Toolbox
	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
  9) RE: Valk's Traveller Issue
	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
 10) Starship Design...
	by "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
 11) Re: New Product Feedback
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
 12) Re: Machine guns & bunny deathfest
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
 13) Re: Starship Design...
	by "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
 14) Starsystem generation
	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
 15) Re: rules equivalencies
	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
 16) Re: rules equivalencies 
	by Pauli <Paul.Dale@jcu.edu.au>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 22 Apr 1996 20:28:38 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: rules equivalencies
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960422202022.20777C-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Mon, 22 Apr 1996, Thomas Kathmann wrote:

> I think this is a good idea. Using the Difficult difficulty level as 
> the conversion basis, this would give the following conversion.
> I somehow adjusted the above given numbers, because there is a
> extreme difference between skill level 3 and 5(reducing the chance for
> a success for a difficult task by about x0.57 and giving the competent
> man a chance of about 40% to succeed at a difficult task. Here is my
> recommendation:
>                                               Success(MT/TNE)
> Description    MT Skill   TNE Asset   Routine*   Difficult   Impossible**
> Novice             0          2       58%/20%      8%/10%       0%/ 0%
> Beginner           1          4       72%/40%     17%/20%       0%/ 5%          
> Amateur            2          6       83%/60%     28%/30%       0%/ 5%
> Average            3          8       91%/80%     42%/40%       3%/10%
> Competent          4         12       97%/90%     58%/60%       8%/15%
> Expert             5         14       97%/90%     72%/70%      17%/15%
> Wizard             6         16       97%/90%     83%/80%      28%/20%
> 
> *  TNE Average, I assume in the new system the difficulty level Routine
>    will be used again. 
> ** Impossible is the impossible difficulty level in TNE
>    or the Formidable difficulty level in the newer editions of MT. However
>    IMHO this should be renamed to Almost Impossible :-)

	Ooh.  Even I, a Classic Traveller enthusiast, like this!  I like 
it a lot.  It sounds much better to say, "I'm an expert computer 
programmer," than, "I have 5 skill levels of computer programming."  This 
one I'm definitely going to save.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Nacht <nacht@neosoft.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 22:16:28 -0500
Subject: Response to the WDSAYU Poll

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[Rumors of RichTextFormat abound, but the arcana of MS Exchange
befuddles me...  Apology Shield activated in advance.  Any explanation
of the necessary rituals of purification would be appreciated.  -ed.]

[WARNING!  Nasty Gossip Follows:  I believe Mr. Dollar to be a 
graduate student of Political Science in disguise as a Traveller player.  
- -ed.  *muted applause*]

Stuart L. Dollar[SMTP:sdollar@goodnet.com] scribbled:
> The What Design System Are You Using Poll:
> 1. Are you currently playing Traveller using Traveller: The New Era 
> rules, regardless of setting?

	No.  "Mildly Modified Millenium's End"(tm) rules, various settings, 
	most fatal.  ;-(
 
> 2.  Do you own a copy of FF&S (Fire, Fusion & Steel)?

	Yes.  Two.  Don't ask.
 
> 3. Have you ever used FF&S to design a starship, weapon, vehicle or 
> other items?

	Yes.  Well, so I never finished a single one...  So what?
 
> 4. Have you ever used the posted FF&S Lite rules to design items?

	No.  Where are they?  I'll probably file them with the Plain Label(tm)
	rules...
 
> 5.  Do you own the Megatraveller Rules?

	Yes.  All of them.  Except MT Journal 1...  Hyperodge wants too much
	for it...
 
> 6. Have you ever designed a starship, vehicle, or small craft with 
> the MegaTraveller rules?

	Yes.  And I finished most of them, so there...
 
> 7. Do you own a version of the Classic Traveller rules (Traveller 
> Book, Little black books, Deluxe Traveller, Starter Traveller)?

	Yes.  All of the above.
 
> 8.  Do you have Book 5, High Guard?

	Uh, yeah, it too.
 
> 9.  Do you have Striker?

	Yeppers.  [Both editions, CT and TNE.]
 
> 10.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 2, Starships?

	Yup.  Finished all those, easy money.
 
> 11.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 5, High Guard?

	Yeah, almost as easily.
 
> 12. Have you ever designed vehicles or other items using Striker?

	Yes.  Blech.
 
> 13. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
> preference for designing starships: (Book 2, Starships, Book 5, High 
> Guard, MegaTraveller, FF&S)

	Even though I loathe the arcane design sequences of FF&S, I prefer
	its approach.  The sections explaining the rationale of the technology
	are excellent ambiance.  However, please include MORE prefab-flimsy-
	throw-away-junk components that would be manufactured by every
	wannabe industrial world...  Standard ammunition, communicators,
	fusion plants, etc.  Complete with manufacturers' names, address, and
	SKU numbers...  ;-)

	I find it difficult to stomach the "hand-crafting" per se of each little part
	of a one-shot ship, toy, cybernetic implant, etc...  By this time in history, 
	especially with the Vilani legacy, EVERYTHING would more or less be 
	standardized to help facilitate the repair and maintenance of starships 
	gazillions of parsecs from their homeport...  [The argument in favor of 
	choosing 9mmP weapons, I believe, for survivalists...  But I digress...]
	They are nice for RC campaigns in which lives can hinge upon such
	"hand-crafted" parts.  [They only thought I was an evil referee, until I
	handed them FF&S, and said, "Thou shalt design, or asphyxiate painfully
	upon vacuum..."  -ed.]
 
> 14. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
> preference for designing vehicles (Striker, MegaTraveller, FF&S)

	FF&S, see above.  I still PREFER a bunch of spiffy equipment guides,
	though.  BUT PLEASE make sure that they all jive with the nice little
	design sequences...  ;-(
 
> "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"

	Hey!?  !@#$ you, too, Isaac.  I resemble that remark!  ;-)


All in all, I think a FF&S Lite would be excellent food for the gearheads, but
supplying the mathematically-challenged amongst us with lots of standardized
parts and explanatory fluff would be the best of both worlds...




David Reed
nacht@neosoft.com

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------------------------------

From: smithw@bing.televar.com
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 20:57:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #20

HELP!  how do I disconnect?  I can't keep up with you folks!  Must wait for
retirement.  Any info is greatly appreciated.

------------------------------

From: whitman@wisenet.net (Ken Whitman)
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 00:47:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #20

Keep an eye on our web page.  We are about to add a sneak preview of our
character career charts.

www.Imperiumgames.com


- -Ken Whitman



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 00:08:08 -0800
Subject: Re: MT killed TNE?

On 23 May 96 at 19:02, Susan M. Shock spewed:

> the other stuff would be, too." Now that's a spurious assumption, especially
> in regard to the stuff that DGP put out, but that seemed to be the prevalent

Er...take a look at the design credits.  Actually DGP did put out the 
original MT books...with everything but DGP's logo on the front.

> it's not GDW making it will help (although I've already run into one guy who
> said "GDW, Imperium Games...they're all the same guys anyway". of course,

Not having GDW's name on it will be a big help, IMHO...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: csbennet@lava.net (Morgan)
Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 22:48:46 -1000
Subject: Survey Question

Okay...

>The What Design System Are You Using Poll:
>1. Are you currently playing Traveller using Traveller: The New Era 
>rules, regardless of setting?

No.

>2.  Do you own a copy of FF&S (Fire, Fusion & Steel)?

Yes.

>3. Have you ever used FF&S to design a starship, weapon, vehicle or 
>other items?

No, Yes, and yes... and I've been trying in my free time to work on an
alternate setting using Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan series as a basis.

>4. Have you ever used the posted FF&S Lite rules to design items?

Nope.

>5.  Do you own the Megatraveller Rules?

Yep.

>6. Have you ever designed a starship, vehicle, or small craft with 
>the MegaTraveller rules?

Yep, yep, yep.

>7. Do you own a version of the Classic Traveller rules (Traveller 
>Book, Little black books, Deluxe Traveller, Starter Traveller)?

Sure do.

>8.  Do you have Book 5, High Guard?

Affirmative.

>9.  Do you have Striker?

Uh huh.

>10.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 2, Starships?

Nodding yes.

>11.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 5, High Guard?

Yeah, sure have.

>12. Have you ever designed vehicles or other items using Striker?

Tried once, but I wasn't even in high school when I did. The math got a bit
boring back then.

>13. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
>preference for designing starships: (Book 2, Starships, Book 5, High 
>Guard, MegaTraveller, FF&S)

I like FF&S's detail but MT was a lot easier to use. The reason I haven't
made starships with FF&S yet is because I still haven't played with all the
numbers yet. (I didn't even find out about TNE until late last year)

>14. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
>preference for designing vehicles (Striker, MegaTraveller, FF&S)

Same comments as above.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, so FFS was broken... I liked the added level of realism.
Unfortunately, it was neither real enough nor "space-opera" enough. It still
lacked pricing for common starship/vehicle items and it could have saved
tons of debate by providing a rationalization for thruster plates rather
than ditching them in the face of  years and years of support. Either
Traveller clings to the past or discards it entirely, you can't have it both
ways. Nobody plays Traveller the same way. The only thing that has been
consistent in all my years of role-playing has been those ugly little
doorstops called Scout/Couriers....<G>

"We are all mad at some time or another."
    Battista Mantuanas                   
     Eclogues, 1500                     


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #21
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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 25 May 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 022

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: A Question for Marc Miller
         2. Bounces
         3. The What Design System Are You Using Poll:
         4. Yer Servey...
         5. Question for MM
         6. Re: MT killed TNE?
         7. Attn Andy Lilly/BITS
         8. T4 Character Sheet Previews
         9. What design system poll
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #19
        11. [none]
        12. Poll result and FF&S Comment (long)
        13. Re: MT killed TNE?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: p kugathasan <P.Kugathasan@bristol.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 14:52:04 BST
Subject: Re: A Question for Marc Miller

unsubscribe traveller

------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 24 May 96 13:37:07 EDT
Subject: Bounces

My Trav & Xboat digest is nothing _but_ bounced mail! Help!!

HWF


------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.avalon.COM>
Date: 24 May 96 10:33:36 MS
Subject: The What Design System Are You Using Poll:

The What Design System Are You Using Poll:
1. Are you currently playing Traveller using Traveller: The New Era 
rules, regardless of setting?
Yes, with some modifications

2.  Do you own a copy of FF&S (Fire, Fusion & Steel)?
Yes.  The most impressive game supplement (of any game) I've seen since 1990 
(my pre-1990 vote would be ICE's hardback Minas Tirith sourcebook).

3. Have you ever used FF&S to design a starship, weapon, vehicle or 
other items?
Yes, quite regularly.  Between my own stuff and the TML data, I have a pretty 
extensive collection of vehicles, ships, weapons and other implements of FF&S 
mayhem.

4. Have you ever used the posted FF&S Lite rules to design items?
No - I must have missed those.  Are they available at one of the Web Sites?

5.  Do you own the Megatraveller Rules?
Yes (unfortunately)

6. Have you ever designed a starship, vehicle, or small craft with 
the MegaTraveller rules?
Yes; quite possibly the worst gaming experience I ever had.  I immediately went 
back to High Guard.  The vehiocles were no as bad, but still left much to be 
desired.  And Lord, the poorly-written design rules still give me the willies.

7. Do you own a version of the Classic Traveller rules (Traveller 
Book, Little black books, Deluxe Traveller, Starter Traveller)?
Yes (several copies, ranging from totally shredded to pristine)

8.  Do you have Book 5, High Guard?
Yes (same comment as above)

9.  Do you have Striker?
Yes (also the same comment - I see a trend there)

10.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 2, Starships?
Yes (Boring and cookie-cutter)

11.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 5, High Guard?
Yes (a vast improvement over book two)

12. Have you ever designed vehicles or other items using Striker?
Yes (Hey, I've even PLAYED Striker as a Wargame)

13. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
preference for designing starships: (Book 2, Starships, Book 5, High 
Guard, MegaTraveller, FF&S)
Overall, I would say High Guard, but it is a very close race between High Guard 
and FF&S.  If I was rating by simplicty, I would say High Guard most 
definitely.  If I was rating based solely on realism and gameplay value, I 
would vote overwhelmingly for Fire, Fusion and Steel.  I will say that if I had 
no computer, I would never have used FF&S.

14. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
preference for designing vehicles (Striker, MegaTraveller, FF&S)
Fire, Fusion and Steel (Striker was a good ruuner-up, but needed more 
flexibility in terms of what things you could design (rather than pick off a 
list) to put on your vehicles.


Steven Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com
My employers have no preferences regarding Traveller design systems

------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 16:09:03 -0400
Subject: Yer Servey...

The What Design System Are You Using Poll:
1. Are you currently playing Traveller using Traveller: The New Era 
rules, regardless of setting?

No.

2.  Do you own a copy of FF&S (Fire, Fusion & Steel)?

Yes.

3. Have you ever used FF&S to design a starship, weapon, vehicle or 
other items?

No--I get the general feeling that I ought to learn MS Excel first!

4. Have you ever used the posted FF&S Lite rules to design items?

No.

5.  Do you own the Megatraveller Rules?

Yes.

6. Have you ever designed a starship, vehicle, or small craft with 
the MegaTraveller rules?

Yes, in the good old days--when it first came out.

7. Do you own a version of the Classic Traveller rules (Traveller 
Book, Little black books, Deluxe Traveller, Starter Traveller)?

Yes, all of the above, several copies of each.

8.  Do you have Book 5, High Guard?

Yes, both the first and second editions of this supplement.

9.  Do you have Striker?

Yes, two copies of book edition (first) and four copies of Striker II.

10.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 2, Starships?

Yes, many, including a erzatz version of the Millenium Falcon (renamed the
Millenium Pigeon)!

11.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 5, High Guard?

Many.

12. Have you ever designed vehicles or other items using Striker?

One or two. Note that all this design with Book 2, Book 5 and Striker Mk I
took place between 1977 (when I first started playing/running Traveller) and
when MegaTraveller came out (which is about when I stopped playing/running
Traveller).

13. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
preference for designing starships: (Book 2, Starships, Book 5, High 
Guard, MegaTraveller, FF&S)

Note that I am not a real "gearhead". For the level of detail that I desired,
and the level of detail that my players desired, Book 2 worked great for
small ships. Book 5 worked great for larger ships (and in a related
sense--Book 2 worked great for small actions and Book 5 worked great for
fleet actions).

I did not do much more than a few designs with MegaTrav, and can't remember
how that worked out.

I never did intend on using FF&S/TNE when I started getting re-involved in
Traveller until I had a good chance to look at it. My plan was to start
running a "classic" campaign and work my way up to the TNE setting...

14. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
preference for designing vehicles (Striker, MegaTraveller, FF&S)

Probably Striker Mk I, but I'd like to find the extensive article that
appeared in Steve Jackson's SPACE GAMER way back then. As I recall, that
helped in the design process.

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)





------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 12:33:55 -0800
Subject: Question for MM

Unto Mark Miller do I beg response upon the following:
Does/Will T4/NT/MMT/IGT/FFT (choose your label) change the Experience limit?
Basically, I have felt for a long time that the limit on total skills was a
bit too low under CT, and noticably low under MT. TNE was easily abused by
players, as it lacked an upper limit to skills, and an upper limit to any
given skill. (MT placed that at lvel 8 by the task DM limit).

William F. Hostman

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 14:19:06 -0700
Subject: Re: MT killed TNE?

From:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM" 23-MAY-1996 16:22:31.30
To:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"
CC:	
Subj:	MT killed TNE?

Date: Thu, 23 May 1996 19:02:17 -0400
From: 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
Subject: MT killed TNE?

>   Prelimary conclusion: MegaTraveller did more to kill GDW, than TNE
>(though I'm sure at least one of you will say that while MT put the
>company on life support, TNE pulled the plug); and Traveller fans are
>probably the most loyal in the gaming industry--or perhaps the most
>stubborn. <g>
   Every retailer I've talked to (about 30 all told) has said that their
reluctance to carry ANY materials with the TRAVELLER name on them stems from
MegaTraveller. Apparently, they had a hard time moving the stuff. Two years
.................
with MT. So, one could blame the death of GDW on MegaTraveller (among many
other things), and not TNE.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sounds to me as if GDW killed Traveller.

Considering the attitude they had towards it & towards the fans on these
lists, I dont think that's much of a surprise at all.

Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu


------------------------------

From: David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 24 May 96 17:44:19 EDT
Subject: Attn Andy Lilly/BITS

    If Andy Lilly is out there, I've lost the BITS survey/membership message you
sent me, and your email address along with it. If you could re-transmit it I'd
be grateful.

                            David


------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 16:13:36 -0600
Subject: T4 Character Sheet Previews

On 05/24/96 at 12:47 AM,  whitman@wisenet.net (Ken Whitman) said:

>Keep an eye on our web page.  We are about to add a sneak preview of
>our character career charts.

Wonderful!  I try to drop by every few days.  The web page is really
looking good.

I'm also glad to see *you* dropping by the list.  Are any of the
others in the design team lurking out there?  We'd love to chat with
you.

Eris Reddoch
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 24 May 96 18:30:35 EDT
Subject: What design system poll

Stuart Dollar wrote:
The What Design System Are You Using Poll:
1. Are you currently playing Traveller using Traveller: The New Era 
rules, regardless of setting?

Yes (and a RC diehard at that - RCES, Humaniti's last, best hope of survival
<g>)

2.  Do you own a copy of FF&S (Fire, Fusion & Steel)?

Yes.

3. Have you ever used FF&S to design a starship, weapon, vehicle or 
other items?

Yes.

4. Have you ever used the posted FF&S Lite rules to design items?

No.

5.  Do you own the Megatraveller Rules?

Yes

6. Have you ever designed a starship, vehicle, or small craft with 
the MegaTraveller rules?

Yes, IMO they were obviously badly broken.

7. Do you own a version of the Classic Traveller rules (Traveller 
Book, Little black books, Deluxe Traveller, Starter Traveller)?

Yes

8.  Do you have Book 5, High Guard?

Yes

9.  Do you have Striker?

Yes

10.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 2, Starships?

Yes (far too simple)

11.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 5, High Guard?

Yes (too abstract)

12. Have you ever designed vehicles or other items using Striker?

Yes

13. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
preference for designing starships: (Book 2, Starships, Book 5, High 
Guard, MegaTraveller, FF&S)

FF&S

14. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
preference for designing vehicles (Striker, MegaTraveller, FF&S)

FF&S

FF&S probably was overcomplex and needed more ready designed components, but it
could do whatever you wanted and fixed the problems in the Striker and MT design
systems. What we need is an FF&S second edition, not Book 5 Mk 2. But my real
complaint over T4 is still the lack of TNE milieu support.

                            David


------------------------------

From: Justin Key <justin@shima.demon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 02:53:44 +0000
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #19

> >  When is T4 going to be released in the UK?

For information try the new Imperium Games web site at:

http://www.imperiumgames.com

They are providing updates on progress and have even corrected all 
their spelling now :-) Also, of course, they have an e-mail address 
so if there's anything you need to know why not drop 'em a line

Justin




------------------------------

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Subject: UUCP job killed
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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 668
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X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 668

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 667
	by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  2) New Traveller (TML)
	by Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
  3) Howdy
	by dhayden@udcps.cps.udayton.edu (Douglas Hayden)
  4) RE: New product info
	by ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
  5) Death to the evil bunny empire!
	by "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
  6) Asteroids vs. Planetoids
	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  7) Task SYstems
	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  8) Re: New Product Feedback
	by Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
  9) Starship Design...
	by "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
 10) Lasers & Rigid armour
	by grimscal@dove.mtx.net.au
 11) Re: Machine Gun Fire
	by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
 12) Re: Rules Equivalencies
	by "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
 13) Standard decoder
	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
 14) What would we like to know?
	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
 15) Re: Death to the evil bunny empire!
	by "Jason R. Weiser" <his4jrw@cabell.vcu.edu>
 16) Re: Starship Design...
	by Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@IO.COM>
 17) Re: Difficulty levels
	by "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
 18) Re: Standard decoder
	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
 19) Re: [T666] Reality outstrips SF -- again
	by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 19:44:50 -0700
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 667
Message-ID: <199604240244.TAA08105@mom.hooked.net>

At 09:34 PM 4/23/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Date: Tue, 23 Apr 1996 02:22:05 -0600
>From: dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin)
>To: traveller@MPGN.COM
>Subject: Re: New Product Feedback
>Message-ID: <v01530501ada242849dfa@[206.230.202.112]>

>I will do my best to provide relevent information to this newsgroup. My
>name is Don Perrin and I am a member of the design team responsible for
>ships and space combat. We generally have meetings every Wednesday, meaning
>that I can have some info to you on Thursdays. What sort of information are
>you looking for?

Updates on how the product is coming would be nice.  The automatic reaction
when I say "GenCon release" is for the person to respond "nice Christmas
present".  Are things on a schedule that y'all are happy with?

Hints about what is going to be in T4 would help us get ready for the
transistion.  For example, since your forte is stsrships, are we going to be
using vector/thrust (TNE) or thrusters (CT/MT)?  Little things like that
will keep us going until the rules fall into our hands.

I remember Imperium Games announcing a mailing list.  I subscribed, but as
of yet haven't recieved a thing from them.

One thought just came to me.  A semi-regular IRC wouldn't hurt..


>Thanks for your interest,

Slavering obsession since 1977 in my case.

------------------------------

From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 00:33:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Poll result and FF&S Comment (long)

The What Design System Are You Using Poll:
1. Are you currently playing Traveller using Traveller: The New Era 
rules, regardless of setting?
I am running a Megatraveller Game solely for the Character Generation, but I
have  stomach cramps when I realise the shortcomings of the basic game rules
from MT to TNE

2.  Do you own a copy of FF&S (Fire, Fusion & Steel)?
Yes, three actually (First edition, Mod1, and One from Deluxe)

3. Have you ever used FF&S to design a starship, weapon, vehicle or 
other items?
Yes for all, mostly weapons.

4. Have you ever used the posted FF&S Lite rules to design items?
Nope

5.  Do you own the Megatraveller Rules?
Yep

6. Have you ever designed a starship, vehicle, or small craft with 
the MegaTraveller rules?
Sure, tons of them

7. Do you own a version of the Classic Traveller rules (Traveller 
Book, Little black books, Deluxe Traveller, Starter Traveller)?
All of them

8.  Do you have Book 5, High Guard?
Yep

9.  Do you have Striker?
Both

10.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 2, Starships?
Sure, about 25-30 then I went to High Guard

11.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 5, High Guard?
Sure, about 100 types

12. Have you ever designed vehicles or other items using Striker?
Sure easily 25-35 vehicles (maybe more liek 50-60)

13. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
preference for designing starships: (Book 2, Starships, Book 5, High 
Guard, MegaTraveller, FF&S)
Book 5 or MT is probably the best as the deign was simplest, althout I think
FF&S is the best.  It is a bit too time consuming and suffered from a
plethora of errors. (to whit the range for Mass Drivers)

14. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
preference for designing vehicles (Striker, MegaTraveller, FF&S)
I always likes Striker the best, but MT was basically the same.  FF&S was
good but suffered from a lack of tons of ready built drop in components.

This is an interesting poll.  I have responded to the main list for this
reason.  I really like FF&S it is in my opinion the one thing that set
Traveller apart from the rest of RPGs.  It had its failing, mostly from
overambition.  What was needed was a complement of equipment designs that
could be dropped into other designs.  The prior systems (HG, MT, Striker)
had this to a large degree, and the design sequences were thought out.  I
will miss the ability to design my own Plasma Grenade Launchers, or Mass
Driver ACV, or the Grav Bike.  FF&S was the logical next step from the MT
and HG design rules, but GDW shot itself in the foot by totally revamping
the entire Science basis for most of the universe.

I have designed most likely hundreds of ship/vehicles/weapons in systems
from Book 2 to HG to Striker to MT to FF&S.  FF&S was by far the most
involved, time consuming, and tedious, but it was also the most rewarding.
I still have fond memories of sitting in Algebra II class in 1983 merrily
ignoring the teacher and designing HG ship after HG ship to populate my
universe.  FF&S gave me the opportunity to fill in the cracks in the weapons
area.  I was frankly tired of just the 20 or so standard weapons available.
I wanted the ability to use more.  Thus is born the Plasma Grenade Launcher,
the Guild SMG w/ 30mm Greander launcher, the Hold-Out laser, etc.  These
weapons fill a niche, sure the GM could just say that they exist, but then
there would be arguments on effectiveness or weight, or what if an
industrious player wants to create something.

My point after all of this rambling is this.  If we lose the ability to
create vehicles, weapons, armor, or starships, then we lose an incredible
amount of flexibility for Traveller also.  Then we have to rely on Imperium
Games to tell us what exists, and we will have to adhoc the design of
specials for our adventures.  Players will design things the GM will have to
review even closer than currently for design flaws.  I wouldn't mind a new
simpler system, although I will miss FF&S, but I will be upset if all we can
do is a quick starship design and a quick vehicle design.

My 2Cr worth
DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 1996 23:17:07 -0800
Subject: Re: MT killed TNE?

On 24 May 96 at 14:19, PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu spewed:

> 
> Sounds to me as if GDW killed Traveller.
> 
> Considering the attitude they had towards it & towards the fans on these
> lists, I dont think that's much of a surprise at all.
> 
> Phil
> 
My opinion on it is that after Marc Miller left, Chadwick & co. at 
GDW looked at it as the ugly stepchild...maybe even before...

Somebody else's design that he didn't really have his heart in.  This 
was obvious by the s***ty editing job on the MegaTraveller books, and 
so on...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #22
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 26 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 023

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Imerperium Games web page
         2. Re: Imerperium Games web page
         3. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #22
         4. Re: [T96#20] Tagline Comment
         5. [none]
         6. Re: [T96#20] Tagline Comment

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 10:15:39 -0400
Subject: Imerperium Games web page

Justin Key said, regaring Imperium Games web page:
> They are providing updates on progress and have even corrected all 
> their spelling now :-) 

Not all of it -- How many 'e's are usually in the word 'Journal'? (main page)

Otherwise, they have a very fine website.

Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
someday agree with something I say.


------------------------------

From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 11:55:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Imerperium Games web page

Okay, so I can't spell either  <grin>

chrisw


> Justin Key said, regaring Imperium Games web page: 
> > They are providing updates on progress and have even corrected all 
> > their spelling now :-) 
>  
> Not all of it -- How many 'e's are usually in the word 'Journal'? 
> (main page) 
>  
> Otherwise, they have a very fine website. 
>  
> Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com] 
> Through sheer random chance, my employer may someday agree with 
> something I say. 
>  
>  


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sat, 25 May 96 21:16 BST-1
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #22

In-Reply-To: <199605251200.IAA03684@NS.MPGN.COM>

In message , owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM said:
  > Date: 24 May 96 10:33:36 MS Subject: The What Design System Are You Using
  > Poll:
  >  
  > The What Design System Are You Using Poll: 1. Are you currently playing
  > Traveller using Traveller: The New Era  rules, regardless of setting?

Not currently playing/running a game. Last time I did run one, I used TNE.

  > 2.  Do you own a copy of FF&S (Fire, Fusion & Steel)? 
  
Yes.  

  > 3. Have you ever used FF&S to design a starship, weapon, vehicle or 
  > other items? 
  
Yes.

  > 4. Have you ever used the posted FF&S Lite rules to design items? 
  
Never seen them.

  > 5.  Do you own the Megatraveller Rules? 
  
Yes.

  > 6. Have you ever designed a starship, vehicle, or small craft with  the
  > MegaTraveller rules? 
  
Yes.

  > 7. Do you own a version of the Classic Traveller rules (Traveller  Book,
  > Little black books, Deluxe Traveller, Starter Traveller)? 
  
Not any more (sold most of them when I bought MT).

  > 8.  Do you have Book 5, High Guard? 
  
See above.

  > 9.  Do you have Striker? 
  
See above.

  > 10.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 2, Starships? 
  
Yes (dull!).

  > 11.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 5, High Guard? 
  
Yes (almost as dull).

  > 12. Have you ever designed vehicles or other items using Striker? 
  
Yes.

  > 13. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
  > preference for designing starships: (Book 2, Starships, Book 5, High 
  > Guard, MegaTraveller, FF&S) 
  
FF&S

  > 14. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
  > preference for designing vehicles (Striker, MegaTraveller, FF&S) 
  
FF&S.

  >  Subject: Question for MM

Have the CT/MT character generation promotion & decoratin rules been fixed,
or are all PCs still going to be O-10 with a dozen SEHs?

  > From: uucp@uu2.psi.com Date: Fri, 24 May 96 23:04:46 -0400 Subject:
  > [none]
  >  
  > Subject: UUCP job killed To: traveller@mpgn.com
  >  
  > Message from UUCP on uupsi2 Fri May 24 23:04:45 1996
  >  
  > UUCP job  bnfCf378 for system  bnf requested by  daemon has been killed.
  >  
  >  
  > ==========================================================================

  > === Your mail could not be delivered to host bnf.UUCP after 30 days. A
  > copy of the failed message is attached.
  > ==========================================================================


Still getting these :-(


                      --------=====OOO=====--------
Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sat, 25 May 96 18:07:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#20] Tagline Comment

T::>> "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from
 ::>"Foundation"

T::> Hey!?  !@#$ you, too, Isaac.  I resemble that remark!  ;-)

 Hey, Isaac was right!  Heinlein explained why:

 Only an incompetent waits to use violence until it's his _last_
 refuge.

 Paraphrased, not quoted.  If I can ever find it, I'll post the
 exact quote and source.  It sounds Lazarus-Longish, but that
 doesn't mean anything.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 þ OLXWin 1.00b þ I have friends I haven't even used yet...


------------------------------

From: uucp@uu2.psi.com
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Subject: UUCP job killed
To: traveller@mpgn.com

Message from UUCP on uupsi2 Sat May 25 23:04:29 1996

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The job was
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>From traveller@mpgn.com  Thu Apr 25 16:58:34 1996
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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 669
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X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 669

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: [T666] Reality outstrips SF -- again
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
  2) Re: Starship Design...
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@netaddress.usa.net>
  3) Re: Starship Design...
	by "David J. Golden" <goldendj@netaddress.usa.net>
  4) Jayasuriya Class Gunship
	by mickb@thehub.com.au (Michael Bailey)
  5) Machine Gun Fire
	by benjamin barton <benjy@iap.net.au>
  6) Re: Standard decoder
	by Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
  7) TL-14 400 Mj Particle Accelerator
	by mickb@thehub.com.au (Michael Bailey)
  8) TL-8 Intermediate Range Ballistic Missile
	by mickb@thehub.com.au (Michael Bailey)
  9) MT Products
	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
 10) Bunnies: The final solution
	by "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
 11) Re: Rules Equivalencies
	by Thomas Kathmann <t_kathma@informatik.uni-kl.de>
 12) Nanotech...
	by "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
 13) Re: Bunnies: The final solution
	by "Jason R. Weiser" <his4jrw@cabell.vcu.edu>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 18:44:13 -0500 (CDT)
From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: [T666] Reality outstrips SF -- again
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD/.3.91.960424184027.9543A-100000@connect.iconnect.net>

On Wed, 24 Apr 1996, JEFF ZEITLIN wrote:

>  Certainly.  I've never suggested otherwise; it makes eminent
>  sense, as you point out - and I've even acknowledged this in the
>  inclusion of the tech profile in the RICE Papers.

	I'm sorry. I misunderstood the thrust of your statements.

>  But I question whether we were anywhere near tech _10_ last month-
>  Massive Parallelism (TL8) isn't all that common, although
>  Nonvolatile Memory (TL9) is; neither is Vocal Input (TL9) [and
>  what is available isn't reliable].  Voice Transcription (TL10) is
>  barely out of the SF stage - not as advanced as Holocrystal
>  Storage (TL13) - and Advanced Synaptics (TL11) and
>  Semi-Intelligent Robots (TL12) are still in the SF stage.  So
>  what's our _real_ computer TL?  7 verging on 8 (Desktop Computers
>  -> Massive Parallelism)? Early 9 (Nonvolatile Memory)?  Prototype
>  13 (Holocrystal Storage)? All of the above?

	Hmmm.  It seems I have been mistaken about tech levels all this 
time!  I thought the level indicated that at which the device or whatever 
is invented/created/produced/whatever.  It appears from what you say 
above that, instead, the tech level refers to the time in which the item 
is common.
	Correct?


>  I think reality has gotten ahead of our Traveller writers...

	True.  That bothers me somewhat as well.  Hopefully, T4 will 
rectify that...for a few years, anyway. :)

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 24 Apr 1996 18:20:08 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@netaddress.usa.net>

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 22:56:57 -0600
Subject: Re: [T96#20] Tagline Comment

At 06:07 pm 5/25/96 -0500, Jeff Zeitlin wrote:
>
>T::>> "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from
> ::>"Foundation"
>
>T::> Hey!?  !@#$ you, too, Isaac.  I resemble that remark!  ;-)
>
> Hey, Isaac was right!  Heinlein explained why:
>
> Only an incompetent waits to use violence until it's his _last_
> refuge.
>
> Paraphrased, not quoted.  If I can ever find it, I'll post the
> exact quote and source.  It sounds Lazarus-Longish, but that
> doesn't mean anything.

        I like this, and it does sound very much like the Senior. If you
ever find the source, I'd like a copy.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #23
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 27 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 024

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Poll
         2. Design survey
         3. Dumarest of Terra
         4. Traveller CCG ... bad idea
         5. New ideas for T4 material
         6. [none]
         7. Re: Traveller CCG ... bad idea

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 20:28:44 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Poll

In-Reply-To: <199605251200.IAA03684@NS.MPGN.COM>

In message , owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM said:
  > Date: 24 May 96 10:33:36 MS Subject: The What Design System Are You Using
  > Poll:
  >  
  > The What Design System Are You Using Poll: 1. Are you currently playing
  > Traveller using Traveller: The New Era  rules, regardless of setting?

I'm not currently playing/GMing Traveller, but when I do it's going 
to be with the TNE rules... with a healthy dose of redesigned 
background and higher-tech, but that's about it.

  > 2.  Do you own a copy of FF&S (Fire, Fusion & Steel)? 
  
Sure do.  

  > 3. Have you ever used FF&S to design a starship, weapon, vehicle or 
  > other items? 
  
Mostly starships at the moment... I haven't found a need to design 
anything else, though I am looking at vehicles (lift vehicles, 
airships, that sort of thing).

  > 4. Have you ever used the posted FF&S Lite rules to design items? 
  
Hmm... couldn't say that I have seen then, though I have sure heard a 
lot about them.

  > 5.  Do you own the Megatraveller Rules? 
  
'Fraid so.

  > 6. Have you ever designed a starship, vehicle, or small craft with  the
  > MegaTraveller rules? 
  
All of the above.

  > 7. Do you own a version of the Classic Traveller rules (Traveller  Book,
  > Little black books, Deluxe Traveller, Starter Traveller)? 
  
No... shame as well, then I would be able to tell what people are 
continually moaning about.

  > 8.  Do you have Book 5, High Guard? 
  
Nope.

  > 9.  Do you have Striker? 
  
Ditto.

  > 10.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 2, Starships? 
  
Can't say that I have.

  > 11.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 5, High Guard? 
  
Nope.

  > 12. Have you ever designed vehicles or other items using Striker? 
  
Same again.

  > 13. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
  > preference for designing starships: (Book 2, Starships, Book 5, High 
  > Guard, MegaTraveller, FF&S) 
  
Out of the options and the systems that I have used then it would 
have to be FF&S.

  > 14. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
  > preference for designing vehicles (Striker, MegaTraveller, FF&S) 

Again, this would have to be FF&S from what I have seen of the 
system so far.  Though it can be a complete pain at times to go 
through the book looking for all the stuff that you need - and then 
some when you find out that you have to design *that* piece as well - 
it still beats MT hands down.  Okay, MT had a simple design sequence 
and I could knock out a ship, space station, whatever, in a very 
short period of time.  I can't do that with FF&S but I tend to think 
that the ships are more logical and consistent with the physical laws 
that operate within the universe.  Also, FF&S tried to answer to the 
fact that some people just don't like some features of the Imperial 
Traveller universe... personally, I don't like the idea of artificial 
gravity at the moment so I've got all these nice spinny-things to 
provide the glue to stick you to the floor.

If there is one thing that can be said about the MT system... the 
*lack* of design sequences gave some people a 'free hand' in 
designing stuff for the universe.  Okay, it might not have been 
completely consistent with all the number crunching that someone had 
done, but it sure made them think "Like, wow!"  FF&S put a stop to 
this (well, with my friends anyway) since they didn't want to root 
through the back to make it consistent with the universe.  In 
addition - and I have said this before - it just didn't seem to cut 
it when you considered what it was going to do.  "Give you the 
factory of the future," or something like that... kind of makes you 
think that it's going to all add up.  However, kind of made me think 
of 1986 with spaceships (he says again ;-)  

If there was going to be anything done about technology in the new 
version, that it sure would be nice to see little articles discussing 
the relative advantages and disadvantages of incorporating a certain 
piece of technology into your universe (assuming that T4/MMT)... 
okay, it won't be the Imperial Traveller universe but it would be 
nice if they did this.  For example, what would be the effects of 
nanotechnology upon medicine, computers/communications, robotics, 
engineering, materials technology, etc.  If there are any people who 
are in the "know" and wouldn't mind patronising me they could sure 
tell me, or point me in the correct direction, but I would still like 
to see 'official' or 'semi-official' articles on these subjects.

Anyway, thanks for listening to me rant and rave.


Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, BSc. Archaeology (Leicester University)

  "Ha!  'Tis only a flesh wound..."

------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 21:14:31 -0400
Subject: Design survey

The What Design System Are You Using Poll:
1. Are you currently playing Traveller using Traveller: The New Era 
rules, regardless of setting?

Yes.  TNE rules, Spinward Marches, post 5th FW.  Thruster Plates in use.

2.  Do you own a copy of FF&S (Fire, Fusion & Steel)?
  Yes.  One of my most favorite game suplements.

3. Have you ever used FF&S to design a starship, weapon, vehicle or 
other items?
  Yup.  I've built numerous firearms, starships, winged aircraft, wheeled
vehicles, and even a zeppelin.

4. Have you ever used the posted FF&S Lite rules to design items?
    Yup.

5.  Do you own the Megatraveller Rules?
Yes.  A very early, very broken copy.  I did have 2.5cm thick errata
printout to go
with it at one time too.

6. Have you ever designed a starship, vehicle, or small craft with 
the MegaTraveller rules?
   Not successfully.  The rules were too broken.

7. Do you own a version of the Classic Traveller rules (Traveller 
Book, Little black books, Deluxe Traveller, Starter Traveller)?
  Yes.

8.  Do you have Book 5, High Guard?
        Yes.

9.  Do you have Striker?
        Yes.

10.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 2, Starships?
   Yes.  Very simple.  I perfer the FF&S rules with FF&S Lite for quick and
dirty.

11.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 5, High Guard?
   Yes.

12. Have you ever designed vehicles or other items using Striker?
    No.

13. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
preference for designing starships: (Book 2, Starships, Book 5, High 
Guard, MegaTraveller, FF&S)
   FF&S

14. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
preference for designing vehicles (Striker, MegaTraveller, FF&S)
    FF&S

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
               http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 21:14:27 -0400
Subject: Dumarest of Terra

I just finished my first Dumarest of Terra novel (#4 "Kalin").  One interesting
tidbit I picked up was that High Passage Travellers got a shot of Fast Drug
for the trip.  One, this saved them from the shear boredom of the flight.  
Two, it cut down on the Life Support requirements for the trip.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
               http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 21:29:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Traveller CCG ... bad idea

Maybe IG could do a really bang-up job and produce a good CCG for
Traveller.  *BUT*, even if they do this, that doesn't mean the CCG will do
good on the market.  Consider these points:

1) The CCG market is *flooded* with games.  Try convincing a distributor
or retailer to sink money into *yet another* "new CCG" that will sit on
his shelves taking up valuable space and not turning around as fast as
MTG.  If you can't get your product to the distributors and retailers,
you're out of business.  

2) Illuminati (by Steve Jackson Games) is a classic game of conspiracy
(just as Traveller is a classic RPG of science fiction).  Yet, Illuminati:
New World Order (INWO), their CCG version of Illuminati, isn't moving
worth beans, from what I can see.  (Don't get me wrong; I love INWO.  It's
a damn fine CCG.)  Every time I check my mail, I get another catalog for a
store that sells singles on the CCG after-market, and they're selling INWO
at a discount!  Just because Traveller is a good RPG doesn't mean that a
Traveller CCG will sell.  

3) I doubt IG has the financial strength, at this time, to adequately
support T4 (the RPG) with regular supplements *and* do a Trav:CCG.  Maybe
in a couple of years, once they get off the ground and running, but not
now.  In that case, I, as a long-time fan of the Traveller line, would
rather see a strong support of T4, and *maybe* a Trav:CCG in a few years.  

Just my $0.02 worth (or would that be Cr0.02 :-)

Franklin


------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 21:37:02 -0400
Subject: New ideas for T4 material

Anders Backman writes:
><ironic mode ON>
>Lots of products are bigger than RPGs, for porn video for instance but that
>doesn't make me think that Marc and his cronies should produce t4 porn
>flicks.
><ironic mode OFF>

  This could be a big money maker though. :-)  The old Mike Metlay document
on Vargr & Aslan could be a good start...
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
               http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: uucp@uu2.psi.com
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 23:04:06 -0400
Subject: [none]

Subject: UUCP job killed
To: traveller@mpgn.com

Message from UUCP on uupsi2 Sun May 26 23:04:06 1996

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The job was
	rmail mwhalley
>From traveller@mpgn.com  Fri Apr 26 16:53:02 1996
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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 670
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 670

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Reality outstrips...
	by Bri <bri@teleport.com>
  2) Re: TRAVELLER digest 669
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  3) 
	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
  4) Re: Software
	by "G/ran Damberg" <DE9255@ida.utb.hb.se>
  5) Re: Machine Gun Fire
	by Antti Lahtinen <al76188@cs.tut.fi>
  6) Prices
	by "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
  7) Re: Prices
	by Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
  8) Technology outstrips reality...
	by "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
  9) Good Rule Organization is Crucial
	by Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
 10) MG Fire Planetary Conquest
	by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
 11) Bunnies as PLayer Characters
	by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
 12) re: MG Fire Planetary Conquest
	by PBrenton@state.ma.us

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:44:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Re: Reality outstrips...
Message-ID: <Pine.SUN.3.92.960425144336.21462E-100000@kelly.teleport.com>

- --
 barely out of the SF stage - not as advanced as Holocrystal
 Storage (TL13) -
- --
 FYI, Holographic data-crystal technology is about 4 years away..... DVD
is just the mid-step. (semi) operational prototypes(admittidley, the
reader/writer is the size of a car..) already exist.

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


- ------------------------------

Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 19:27:11 -0500
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 669
Message-ID: <199604260027.TAA24680@osh1.datasync.com>

>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@netaddress.usa.net>

>        This wasn't exactly the best part of FF&S. For a 400 Td vessel you
>need 4,000tonnes thrust. HEPlaR produces 20 tonnes per MW input. Therefore
>you need 200MW, not 800. Now, each MW of power requires 0.25kl of LHyd and
>you want 30G-hours (which is 60G-Turns in BL terms -- is that what you
>wanted?). 200MW for 4Gs means 50MW for 1G. 50MW requires 12.5kl of fuel per
>hour. So 30GHours requires 375kl. Much better.
>------------------------------
>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@netaddress.usa.net>
>
>        What's all this thrust-MW people are talking about??? There's no
>such critter!
>
>Your 400 Ton vessel requires 4000 _tonnes_ thrust. No thrust-MW! Using
>HEPlaR, you generate 20 _tonnes of thrust_ per _MW of input power_. Ergo,
>4000 tonnes thrust require 200MW of power.


I think the problem here is that FF&S and the Ship Design Worksheet included
with the Player Forms Supplement work this out in two different ways.  A
Thrust-Megawatt(ThMW) is a Megawatt from the power source devoted to thrust.
According to the Ship Design Worksheet, a ship must have ThMW equal to:


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 26 May 1996 23:38:54 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller CCG ... bad idea

On 26 May 96 at 21:29, Franklin W. Cain spewed:

> Maybe IG could do a really bang-up job and produce a good CCG for
> Traveller.  *BUT*, even if they do this, that doesn't mean the CCG will do
> good on the market.  Consider these points:

Ironically enough, the more opinions I get, and the more I think 
about it.  A Traveller CCG would probably do more harm than good.

Stu

 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #24
*********************************

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Traveller-digest            Tuesday, 28 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 025

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #23
         2. Poll Answers
         3. test, please ignore
         4. In defense of a Traveller CCG? 
         5. Re: In defense of a Traveller CCG? 
         6. Re: In defense of a Traveller CCG? 
         7. Re: In defense of a Traveller CCG? 
         8. [none]
         9. Re: In defense of a Traveller CCG? 
        10. Re: In defense of a Traveller CCG? 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jmg141@psu.edu (John M Gardner)
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 09:12:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #23

In message , owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM said:
  > Date: 24 May 96 10:33:36 MS Subject: The What Design System Are You Using
  > Poll:
  >  
  > The What Design System Are You Using Poll: 1. Are you currently playing
  > Traveller using Traveller: The New Era  rules, regardless of setting?

Yes, and I would use only one setting if I could just keep my players from
moving away to the far corners of the sector :>)

  > 2.  Do you own a copy of FF&S (Fire, Fusion & Steel)? 
  
yes

  > 3. Have you ever used FF&S to design a starship, weapon, vehicle or 
  > other items? 
  
yes, extensively.

  > 4. Have you ever used the posted FF&S Lite rules to design items? 
  
no, my designs range from common sense to sheer overkill.  when i have time
to sort them out as to what would be acceptable for public consumption i may
change this.


  > 5.  Do you own the Megatraveller Rules? 
  
no.

  > 6. Have you ever designed a starship, vehicle, or small craft with  the
  > MegaTraveller rules? 
  
no

  > 7. Do you own a version of the Classic Traveller rules (Traveller  Book,
  > Little black books, Deluxe Traveller, Starter Traveller)? 
  
I used to, before they were lifted from my wall locker during my G.I. days.

  > 8.  Do you have Book 5, High Guard? 
  
once again, I used to.

  > 9.  Do you have Striker? 
  
no

  > 10.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 2, Starships? 
  
yes.  

  > 11.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 5, High Guard? 
  
yes

  > 12. Have you ever designed vehicles or other items using Striker? 
  
no

  > 13. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
  > preference for designing starships: (Book 2, Starships, Book 5, High 
  > Guard, MegaTraveller, FF&S) 
  
Hands down, FF&S.  The old traveller stuff was OK, but lacked the detail I
wanted.  With FF&S I can generaly produce anything I want or need (within
reason).  Also, I found the book's math  to be of the "plug and chug"
variety.  There was nothing really difficult in there, just common sence and
a little bit of time.  

Of course, if you were trying to convert some of the old big ship designs to
TNE, you might see things a little differently.  

  > 14. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
  > preference for designing vehicles (Striker, MegaTraveller, FF&S) 
  



------------------------------

From: Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 08:41:39 -0800
Subject: Poll Answers

1. Are you currently playing Traveller using Traveller: The New Era  rules, regardless 
of setting?

I'm currently refereeing Traveller using TNE rules and the Regency setting.

 2.  Do you own a copy of FF&S (Fire, Fusion & Steel)?
  
Yes.

 3. Have you ever used FF&S to design a starship, weapon, vehicle or other items?
  
Yes, all of the above.

 4. Have you ever used the posted FF&S Lite rules to design items?
  
No, it's an additional complication that I don't want to deal with.  I know FF&S by 
itself has glaring inadequacies, but it works for me and my players.  Downloading 
gigabytes of additional rules is only going to make it tougher to do what we like to 
do: PLAY the game.

 5.  Do you own the Megatraveller Rules?
  
Used to.  Sold them after the demise of MT.

 6. Have you ever designed a starship, vehicle, or small craft with the MegaTraveller 
rules?
  
Yes, all of the above.

 7. Do you own a version of the Classic Traveller rules (Traveller  Book, Little black 
books, Deluxe Traveller, Starter Traveller)?
  
Used to.  Sold Books 1-3 also.  I still have and frequently use for reference Books 
4-8, however I use several of the other CT supplements and adventures as well to 
enhance my TNE campaign.

 8.  Do you have Book 5, High Guard?
  
Yes.

 9.  Do you have Striker?
  
No. Once again, used to, but I never played and eventually sold it.

 10.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 2, Starships?
  
Yes.

 11.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 5, High Guard?
  
Yes.

 12. Have you ever designed vehicles or other items using Striker?
  
No.

 13. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your preference for 
designing starships: (Book 2, Starships, Book 5, High Guard, MegaTraveller, FF&S)
  
FF&S.  There's a bit too much detail, but the _lack_ of detail in the CT and MT 
versions is a problem for me.  I'm no gearhead, but I like a few gadgets and CT/MT just 
don't support them very well.

  14. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your preference for 
designing vehicles (Striker, MegaTraveller, FF&S).

MT.  The FF&S design system makes it a genuine pain in the @$$ to design and evaluate 
vehicles, especially of the grav variety.  MT made it simple and I felt, effective.  
Unfortunately, there isn't a way to convert MT vehicles to TNE.

- --Chris Griffen

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 12:36:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: test, please ignore

just switched from digest to direct mail, just testing, thanks

apologies for the wasted bandwidth
_______________________________________________________
Thomas R. Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/
_______________________________________________________ 



------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 13:21:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: In defense of a Traveller CCG? 

Hi All.

	Okay, usually I would be the last person to defend CCGs, but I
wonder if it would not be a good way to bring in some money which would
support the RPG side of things?  That's the way I see it:  a sideline to
make some money to support the important stuff :-).  Others have expressed
fears that the CCG would lose money, but I have to wonder how much it
costs to develop a CCG.  Aren't they cheap enough to produce that even
modest sales bring returns?  I thought that was the reason for the CCG
craze in the first place: low overhead.  Of course, I'm speaking from a
position of zero experience here, so feel free to correct me.  It's just
that I can't see them taking that much time in terms of rules design,
playtesting and so on (though the artwork might take a while). 

What do y'all think?

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 17:12:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: In defense of a Traveller CCG? 

 I'm of the _firm_ opinino that a CCG would be a very bad thing, if on
nothing but principle.

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 17:50:55 -0800
Subject: Re: In defense of a Traveller CCG? 

On 27 May 96 at 17:12, Bri spewed:

>  I'm of the _firm_ opinino that a CCG would be a very bad thing, if on
> nothing but principle.
> 
Why?  Other than "I hate CCG's"...

I tend to agree with you, but defend it... :-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Mon, 27 May 1996 18:15:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: In defense of a Traveller CCG? 

On Mon, 27 May 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> On 27 May 96 at 17:12, Bri spewed:
>
> >  I'm of the _firm_ opinino that a CCG would be a very bad thing, if on
> > nothing but principle.
> >
> Why?  Other than "I hate CCG's"...
 That would be my main personal reason.

> I tend to agree with you, but defend it... :-)
 Because the market is already flooded. Lets look at the successful games,
the only ones that survive are the first ones(Magic, and sorta Jyhad) and
StarWars. The rest are marginal at best.
 The main reason is, in addition to taking away from ImperiumGame's
limited staff time, it would also, IMO, degrade the traveller universe
serverley. Rember, CCG's are not about role playing, they're power
mongering.

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 671
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			    TRAVELLER Digest 671

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 669
	by Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
  2) Re: Prices
	by tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
  3) Re:  Starship Design...
	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
  4) Re: MG fire
	by "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
  5) Potential Deployment of Power Armour
	by Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com>
  6) Re: Bunnies as PLayer Characters
	by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  7) Re: Prices
	by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  8) Re: TRAVELLER digest 670
	by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  9) High Tech in Traveller, Please!
	by Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
 10) GRAV YACHT DOWN
	by prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
 11) Armored Infantry (Combat Armor and Battle Dress)
	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 10:18:28 -0500 (CDT)
From: Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 669
Message-ID: <Pine.BSD.3.91.960426101339.263A-100000@dagobah.vindaloo.com>

On Thu, 25 Apr 1996 traveller@mpgn.com wrote:

> 
> Date: Thu, 25 Apr 1996 14:50:56 +0800
> From: benjamin barton <benjy@iap.net.au>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Machine Gun Fire
> Message-ID: <317F20D0.1385@iap.net.au>
> 
> David C. Broussard wrote and someone else?
> {snip}
> >>5. An MG round will travel through a large tree, a wall, and half a dozen of
> >>your mates. There is very little that will protect you from machine gun fire.
> 
> >18" of protection is the norm for small arms fire, however, since MG barrels
> >are longer, they generate more energy and thus go through a lot more.
> 
> I hate to rain on you parade:-)  But 18 inchs of what... Sand, a 5.56Nato fired from a M16A2 at 400 meters is 
> stopped by half inch steel plate. If you what penetration then try Flechette as it will penetrate at this 
> range. 
> 

I think the first guy was talking about full auto fire from a .50 cal 
LMG. Not from a M16A2.

Chris
- --
      __o          "Candy Apple Grey"
    _`\<,_           -Bob Mould/Gary Hart
___(*)/_(*)____.___o____..___..o...________ooO..._____________________
Christopher Sean Hilton                           <chris@vindaloo.com>
                         For pgp key finger: <chilton@cluster.mcs.net>


- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 16:30:50 -0500
From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Prices
Message-ID: <199604262130.QAA24403@osh1.datasync.com>

>Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 14:03:51 +0300 (EET DST)
>From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
>
>Has anyone ever consireded the prices of everyday wares in Traveller? I 
>have MT and TN, and they both list very accurately the cost of a lid of a 
>bullet clip, but nowhere is any reference to normal food, clothes etc. 

------------------------------

From: Paragon369@aol.com
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 05:36:14 -0400
Subject: Re: In defense of a Traveller CCG? 

CCG's would also be a good way to generate some good quality Traveller
related art work that's readily available to anyone that wants it.  The
various types of ship, races, worlds, and equipment could be shown in high
quality art..... it'd help with the 'image' of the game....

Russ


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 06:09:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: In defense of a Traveller CCG? 

On Tue, 28 May 1996 Paragon369@aol.com wrote:

> CCG's would also be a good way to generate some good quality Traveller
> related art work that's readily available to anyone that wants it.  The
> various types of ship, races, worlds, and equipment could be shown in high
> quality art..... it'd help with the 'image' of the game....

A good point, but should resources be split between an RPG and  CCG?
Given unlimited time and funds maybe, but....

> 
> Russ
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #25
*********************************

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Traveller-digest           Wednesday, 29 May 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 026

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. ftp.mpgn.com and Digest Archives
         2. Montrealers Unite for Traveller!
         3. Helping Traveller-IV succeed
         4. Re: Helping Traveller-IV succeed
         5. Weapons penetration
         6. [none]
         7. Stu
         8. Re: Stu
         9. RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #24

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 11:26:56 -0400
Subject: ftp.mpgn.com and Digest Archives

We partially have the past digests on ftp.mpgn.com.  The listproc based digests are in /Gaming/Traveller/old.TML.digests and /Gaming/Traveller/old.XTML.digests.

The new ones are in /Gaming/Traveller/TML and /Gaming/Traveller/XTML.

Right now, newly created digests won't be readable to the ftp site until we
can get this corrected.

Thanks
Rob
- --
Rob Miracle
TanSoft.com
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 12:54:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Montrealers Unite for Traveller!

Hi all.  I was planning a little letter-writing campaign to local hobby
stores in the Montreal area in support of the new Traveller and I was
wondering if there are any other Montrealers on the list who would like to
join me.  I seem to remember at least one address from Montreal besides 
mine, and some of you 400 or so lurkers out there must be from my 
beautiful island home.  Email me directly and let's get going on this thing.

Ken, any suggestions on how best to do this?  Any thing we should or should 
not say?  

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Tue, 28 May 96 17:50:00 -0500
Subject: Helping Traveller-IV succeed

  I had a three-day weekend!  I discovered that there's really a
  world out there, and I went exploring.  I found these neat things
  called "bookstores" and "malls", as well as stopping in at the
  Compleat Strategist on 33d St. in NYC.

  Compleat Strategist _wants_ to carry T4.  They want promo
  material as soon as possible. (Hey, Ken!  Is IG listening?)  They
  _like_ Traveller, even though they give CyberPunk 2020 and GURPS
  and AD&D _each_ about three times the shelf space that Traveller
  has ever had. But then, with GDW not supporting the system,
  they'd've had to order a 20-year supply of each item to have
  enough stock to match any of the above.  There's good and bad to
  it...

  However:  Several comic shops in the malls, and most of the
  bookstores, had at least one shelf for RPG stuff, and most had
  more.  So did the toy stores.  But, y'know, the only game I saw
  on those shelves was AD&D.  Maybe part of Traveller's problem has
  been _exposure_?  Or, more accurately, the lack thereof?

  Maybe IG should try to put Traveller right next to AD&D in Barnes
  and Noble.  Or in Squiggy's Cards and Comix.

  Maybe buying a "spot" during Star Trek/ST:TNG/ST:DS9/ST:V and/or
  during Babylon 5 or during SeaQuest:DSV (if it's still on) or
  during Sliders (ditto) or... would be a good idea as well.  Maybe
  space in Asimov's would also be a good idea.

  Heck, there are companies that think of these things for money,
  and they probably do a better job than I would.  But there
  shouldn't be any question of what I'm trying to get at.  And
  now's the time to start - certainly not _after_ the release, and
  not only in the few days before the release.  There are a lot of
  gamers, and a lot of potential gamers out there - and most of
  them would say "Huh?" if you said "Traveller".  Don't you think
  that needs to be changed?

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 þ OLXWin 1.00b þ This is Free Trader Beowulf...




------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 18:32:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Helping Traveller-IV succeed

For what its worth, I bought TNE at Walden's.
_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: jmg141@psu.edu (John M Gardner)
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 21:46:34 -0400
Subject: Weapons penetration

 David C. Broussard wrote and someone else?
> {snip}
> >>5. An MG round will travel through a large tree, a wall, and half a dozen of
> >>your mates. There is very little that will protect you from machine gun
fire.
> 
> >18" of protection is the norm for small arms fire, however, since MG barrels
> >are longer, they generate more energy and thus go through a lot more.
> 
> I hate to rain on you parade:-)  But 18 inchs of what... Sand, a 5.56Nato
fired from a M16A2 at 400 meters is 
> stopped by half inch steel plate. If you what penetration then try
Flechette as it will penetrate at this 
> range. 
> 
Ok, a bit of experience here...
I was a tank crewmember (driver) on M-1 series tanks, and I was deployed
during the gulf war.  I've seen everything from .45 ACP to 125mm rapira-3
tank rounds.  The truth is that the .50 BMG will kill darn near anything on
the battlefield, (except tanks of course :>) ) and 7.62mm eastern block
rifle ammo will cut the armor of an M113 APC to ribbons at 100 meters.  (if
you consider aluminum plates to be armor)  Typicaly the "grunts" use sand
bags (and anything else) to supplement their fighting positions (foxholes).
Two rows of "properly" stacked sandbags is generaly considered to be
"acceptable" protection against schrapnel and other flying nasties.  The .50
BMG is generally too heavy to move quickly and is not always a concern.
BTW, the M-16Ax rifles do not do a particularly good job of piercing armor,
but the accuracy is hard to touch.  

The larger weapons and "guns" found on tanks and APCs are another story.
Most tank guns are designed to defeat heavy armor.  Consequently, 75 to 100
inches of penetration in homogenous steel is not uncommon.  (depending on
the penetrator used).  The "Soviets" and those who use their equipment
typicaly don't use sabot ammo, and typicaly don't have the standoff range
that we do in the US and most NATO countries.  By comparison, the rapira-3
gun used on the T-64/72/80 tanks typicaly uses HE/frag or HEAT ammo to
defeat armor, where the US prefers to use sabot almost exclusively.  The
soviet equiped gun can be expected to have effective ranges of about 1800
meters, compared to the 3000+ of sabot equiped guns.  

As far as protection is concerned, a flack jacket is only good against
schrapnel and pistols.  The assesment that very little will protect you
against (heavy) machinegun fire is quite correct.  The only thing I've seen
actualy stop a BMG is the hide of an M-1 tank (which I've also seen stop the
rapira-3 ammo described above.)  If you're considering the penetration rules
you might want to take this into consideration.  

Its just a thought.  

- ---John 
*     "a chicken is just an egg's way of making new eggs."
                          --- unknown

*      "any society which is willing to surrender essential liberties to
gain security shall likely have neither"
                        --- Benjamin Franklin


------------------------------

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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 672
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			    TRAVELLER Digest 672

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Nanotech and another easy question...
	by "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
  2) Re: Planetary Assaults
	by Poseidon <Dave.Robertson@newcastle.ac.uk>
  3) "Light" machine guns
	by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  4) Re: [T669] Reality outstrips SF -- again
	by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
  5) GRAV YACHT DOWN:CREATURES O' THE FOREST
	by prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
  6) Dedicated TNE List
	by David Burden <david@innocom.demon.co.uk>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:          Sat, 27 Apr 1996 14:03:54 +0100 (BST)
From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Nanotech and another easy question...
Message-ID: <25EB35F0280@daisy.le.ac.uk>

Okay then, maybe my use of the term "nano-robots" was misplaced.  
However, it was more a case of we can construct *very* small 
machinery, which someone termed "nano-machinery" (or something like 
that).  Whether we have it 20 years or 80 years is not really the 
point - it was more a case of "look at technology now, and look at it 
in Traveller."  Regards to my comments upon Traveller as space-opera 
(which is something that I desperately do not want to see).  However, 
thanks for the reference /Backman, I shall endeavour to have a look 
at it.  Remember, for flame-reference, I'm only a poor archaeologist 
;-)

A quick question that someone should be able to answer, prompted by 
my current reading of the powered-armour theme... is there no 
possibility of upping the endurance of the suits past the 10 hours 
produced in the various sourcebooks for the RC?  I haven't looked at 
the numbers yet, so it's a blind question.  Surely with all that 
space kicking around in battle dress - the heavier versions at least 
- - you should be able to put some extra batteries in!?  I saw someone 
us a micro-fusion power plant for Tl-16 "Nemesis" Battle Dress, but 
surely you could just up the endurance by the extra batteries?  

As a point of interest, someone mentioned the cost of the modern 
soldier.  Apparently (can't validate it for various reasons) the 
concept of an armoured trooper is not that far off in the future.  
Topics which came up in the same conversation included, essentially, 
arm-mounted mini-guns with gyro-stabilisation, IHADSS (Integrated 
Helmet and Designated Sight System methinks, but don't quote me on 
it) for targeting, and that sort of thing.  Powered armour may be a 
bit more in the future, but where does Traveller put it?  12-14?  
What's that in our terms... another 150-200 years?  Early decades of 
this century were the estimates I heard given the rapid increase in 
military technology... not saying that I'm an expert on it, though.

Again, thanks for listening to an arty-person rant about 'science.'

Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, Archaeology (Leicester University)

  "Then we'll have what we've only dreamed about...
       a country of our oone." (scottish acent)

- ------------------------------

Date: Sat, 27 Apr 1996 15:28:49 +0100 (BST)
From: Poseidon <Dave.Robertson@newcastle.ac.uk>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Planetary Assaults
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91-941213.960427152456.25115A-100000@aidan.ncl.ac.uk>

I would just like to throw in a thought that was raised last year on 
either X-Boat or TML: AFV readiness after touchdown. Someone(sorry, can't 
remember who :-) ) devised a series of rules for the breakdown of 
ground/air vehicles while in transit. Think about it, your rotary wing 
assault choppers are hardly going to be sitting in the cargo hold with 
rotors unfolded etc. Same goes for external sensors and antennae on AFVs. 
Just because you've got the stuff on to the planetary surface doesn't 

------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 02:33:00 UTC 0000
Subject: Stu

 > My opinion on it is that after Marc Miller left, Chadwick & co. at
 > GDW looked at it as the ugly stepchild...maybe even before...
 >

 Your opinion is not true.

   Loren Wiseman


     (member of "Chadwick & co. at GDW")


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 1996 22:55:08 -0800
Subject: Re: Stu

On 29 May 96 at 2:33, gdw.support@genie.com spewed:

> 
>  Your opinion is not true.
> 
Loren,

Do not take offense at this question, I am seeking an answer from 
someone in the know. 

In the period prior to the release of MegaTraveller, GDW released 
things for CT at a very fast clip, quite often several supplements, 
adventures, & modules a year, in addition to a totally Traveller 
dedicated magazine for a few years (JTAS) and its successor, 
Challenge.  

Other than Challenge, the bulk of MegaTraveller itself was collated and 
rewritten by what was in essence, the staff of DGP.  Prior to Hard 
Times (1991), the following supplements were published for MT.

1988, Rebellion Sourcebook, written by DGP &  GDW staff, with 
contributions by HIWG
1989, COACC, GDW
1990, Fighting Ships of Shattered Imperium, GDW & DGP staff
1990, Knightfall, Joe Fugate, & essentially DGP
1991, with Hard Times, GDW took back a more active role.

Let me know if I missed something.

It would appear that the bulk of the design work on MT (outside of
COACC, and maybe Rebellion Sourcebook) prior to Hard Times, when GDW
essentially took back control of the direction of the game),  was basically handed 
over to DGP.  This process actually began when Marc was still on 
board.

In addition DGP published World Builders Handbook, Starship Operators 
Manual, Flaming Eye, a full magazine (Travellers Digest, then later 
MTJ) as opposed to a few pages in Challenge.  WBH & SSOP were two of 
the best supplements to the MT system, and yet they were written by a 
3rd party company.

Maybe I misspoke myself in saying that GDW treated it as the "ugly 
stepchild", but it would certainly seem that the bulk of the design 
work and publishing for MT, were done by DGP.  What prevented GDW 
from better supporting the game system in those years?

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Benjamin Barton <benjy@iap.net.au>
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 19:36:07 +-800
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #24

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Is it me or is the traveller mail service alway stuff up and postding old messages.

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------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 30 May 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 027

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Traveller CCG
         2. Stuart L. Dollar
         3. Apologies...
         4. Traveller CCG
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #24
         6. New or Old Starship Designs
         7. [none]
         8. Re: New or Old Starship Designs
         9. IG buying TV ad space
        10. body armor
        11. [none]
        12. Tact is for weenies...
        13. FF&S Lite
        14. Re: New or Old Starship Designs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 03:28:30 PST
Subject: Traveller CCG

Someone made a comment about CCG's being "just power mongering". And
that gave me an idea on how a CCG *could* fit into Traveller nicely.

Have the CCG be aimed at planetary/interstellar politics. Including
Clausewitz's "diplomacy by other means" (ie war).

It'd give a nice, semi-abstract way of playing out political
interactions, and thus giving refs a way to take a bunch of generated
worlds and turn them into a bunch of territories, complete with a
"history" of deals, wars, etc.

Heck, handled right it might even work the way some gaming groups used
to do things. They'd use some "grand strategic" type rules to generate
the conflicts and find out *where* the battles were going to be. Then
they'd use tactical level rules to fight out the battles. 

As I've noted before, I'm in favor of having the rules set up such that
you can handle things at any desired level of complexity and get
"equivalent" results. 

So if a CCG would work for the highest level, what the heck.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 09:59:19 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Stuart L. Dollar

Given that both Loren Wiseman (and, through him, possibly at least some 
other ex-GDW staff) and, possibly soon, the email-capable David Nilsen,
might be reading this list, mightn't a little more decorum and, say,
simple politeness be in order?

I find personal accusations like "sophomoric" or the various anti-
Traveller motives attributed to GDW staff short-sighted, intolerant,
and generally uncalled-for.  And I doubt I am alone.

You are, of course, welcome to disagree about the content or style of
published Traveller material, from whatever "era" -- but please don't
be quite so obstreperous about it!

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 09:44:26 -0800
Subject: Apologies...

Chepe,

You're right...  I was out of line on this...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 14:40:07 -0400
Subject: Traveller CCG

I think that CCGs have a strong place in the adventure game market. The
concept has matured past the original speculation phase, and no one can now
expect to produce a CCG that "ignites" the market like Magic did.

Look at history for an indication of what will happen:

When TSR produced D&D, they found that it sold "like hotcakes." They
naturally expected any game title they produced (ie. Metamorphosis Alpha) to
sell in similar numbers. The new publishers jumping on the bandwagon thought
their new games would be the next D&D. In reality, D&D created a new category
and spurred the publication of many new games. But each sold an appropriate
number instead of an outrageous number.

I think we will see the same in CCGs (or just CGs). CCG imitators of Magic
will sell an appropriate number in the market place, but not an outrageous
number. Speculation will not be a component of most new CCGs; players will
buy them because they want to play them and participate in the fun of
searching out new cards. Good game play value will make CCGs sell, as will
good distribution contacts.

I think a Traveller CG (note: not CG) has some potential as a combat resolver
(whether personal combat, military combat, or starship encounters), and some
day we may do one. But not right now unless we can find the right publisher.

Marc

------------------------------

From: stedee@auto-trol.com (Steven Deemer)
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 16:00:59 -0600
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #24

Mark Urbin writes:
>Anders Backman writes:
>><ironic mode ON>
>>Lots of products are bigger than RPGs, for porn video for instance but that
>>doesn't make me think that Marc and his cronies should produce t4 porn
>>flicks.
>><ironic mode OFF>
>
>  This could be a big money maker though. :-)  The old Mike Metlay document
>on Vargr & Aslan could be a good start...

The thought does put the term "Jumpspace" into a whole 'nother perspective.

Steve Deemer
stedee@auto-trol.com

------------------------------

From: dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin)
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 17:52:40 -0600
Subject: New or Old Starship Designs

Fellow Traveller starship fans;

I am creating the first of the expansions for the new Marc Miller's
Traveller series, appropriately named Starships. I am interested in any aid
that you can give me. I am using the starship building rules from the
original Classic Traveller book for small ships, and the High Guard system
for larger ships. There have been some minor modifications, but the only
one that will affect how things are done is that Jump drives are restricted
to tech levels A and above

Computer table:
Capacity is rated as optimum foreground/background capacity.

Model   Mcr     Capacity    Jump
1       2         2/4        1
1bis    4         4/0        2
2       9         3/6        2
2bis    18        6/0        3
3       18        5/9        3
4       30        8/15       4
5       45       12/25       5
6       55       15/35       6
7       80       20/50       6

Size (in tons) of Computers by Tech Level

        TL A    TL B    TL C    TL D    TL E    TL F
1 Model 5 tons  3       2       1       1       1
1bis    5       3       2       1       1       1
2       8       5       3       2       1       1
2bis    8       5       3       2       1       1
3       12      7       4       3       2       1
4       20      10      5       4       2       1
5       n/a     15      7       5       3       1
6       n/a     n/a     10      6       4       2
7       n/a     n/a     n/a     7       5       3

If you have any glaring holes in the building systems, or any comments on
how to easily update it where you think it needs it, please feel free to
email me. I may not take every suggestion, but I will consider all
suggestions.

Also, what I would like is your fabulous design and research abilities. I'd
like a set of statistics, a 100 to 250 word description of the ship, the
name of the first known example of the ship, and the USPs of the following
ships:

Escape Pod
Express Boat
Launch
Ship's Boat
Slow Boat
Pinnace
Slow Pinnace
Modular Cutter
Shuttle
Scout
Courier
Seeker
Free Trader
Subsidized Merchant
Subsidized Liner
Yacht
Military / Government Patrol Cruiser
Mercenary Cruiser
Laboratory Ship
Safari Ship
Close Escort
Gig
System Defense Boat
Corsair
Military Destroyer
Light Fighter
Medium Fighter
Heavy Fighter
Missile Fighter
Military Carrier

Please use as much of what's already out there in your designs. I will
credit you in the work as the "Chief Naval Architect" in the book. Please
email me if you're interested, and what ship(s) you're interested in doing.
Remember that we're doing this in the Year 0 of the Imperium (or within 20
years). If I like your design, I will use it. If you have access to a
program that will produce Illustrator style .eps files, and you want to do
deck layouts, we'd love to see those, too.

Let me see what you can do!

Thanks for your interest and help!

Don Perrin
Starships
Imperium Games

dperrin@mag7.com



------------------------------

From: Noel Kelly <nkelly@pcug.org.au>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 11:30:15 +1000 (EST)
Subject: [none]

Dear Folks -

The What Design System Are You Using Poll:
1. Are you currently playing Traveller using Traveller: The New Era
rules, regardless of setting?
Yes, in a sense. We are using the new task system (it is especially 
favourable to a certain Psi-15 Droyne) but haven't used the combat system 
yet. This appears to be reasonably unwieldy, at first perusal. BTW, we 
have NEVER been happy with Traveller combat. Admittedly I am from an AD&D 
background, but I do believe that the PC's are supposed to be heroes and 
that this is a game, not real life. I WANT to be able to play "Die Hard" 
- - with so-called realistic rules that movie would have been "Die Quickly".

The best TRav combat rules, for us, are the MT rules. However, the 
uniform armour on vehicles is a simplistic cop-out, making them very 
under-armoured.

2.  Do you own a copy of FF&S (Fire, Fusion & Steel)?
Yes - the first release, plus the errata and high energy weapon fixes 
from _Challenge_.

3. Have you ever used FF&S to design a starship, weapon, 
vehicle or other items?
I have attempted to create an Excel spreadsheet to create starships. 
After working through the confusing rules on hulls and internal 
structure, I got through to the Controls section and the conflicting 
tables of Flight Avionics and Navigation Aids and gave up.

FF&S is a worthy attempt at creating an all-inclusive design sequence. I 
will be most unhappy if it is not re-released (with its pseudo-science 
conforming to Traveller ;-) under T4. However, Basic, Intermediate, and 
Advanced sections should be included, with many pre-designed components 
tyo drop in (a la HG) but the ability to design those bits yourself if 
you want to tweak the system. ie. FF&S Lite _plus_ FF&S Gearhead.

4. Have you ever used the posted FF&S Lite rules to design items?
I thought this was only a discussion idea - or is this what I missed in 
Mar-April?

5.  Do you own the Megatraveller Rules?
Yes

6. Have you ever designed a starship, vehicle, or small craft with
the MegaTraveller rules?
Yes, yes, yes. I created an Amiga spreadsheet for MT. Apart from the pain 
of the recursive pp calcs, it works great. Did you know that the best 
defensive DM is comp-9 + size-2 + agility-6 = 17? ...and that the lowest 
emission level is Nil? (I built a stealth ship for my players - actually, 
they stole it from the Ine Givar - and a stealth Resolve-class G-Carrier 
called the Unresolved-class).

7. Do you own a version of the Classic Traveller rules (Traveller
Book, Little black books, Deluxe Traveller, Starter Traveller)?
Books 1-8, Starter Trav.

8.  Do you have Book 5, High Guard?
Yes.

9.  Do you have Striker?
Yes.

10.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 2, Starships?
No. They looked too simple - I went straight to HG.

11.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 5, High Guard?
Yes, many. I even perfected an Amiga spreadsheet for HG.

12. Have you ever designed vehicles or other items using Striker?
Yes. I built a grav version of the Vector W2 Twin-Turbo, and even 
translated it to Striker. Also built about5-10 other vehicles, many of 
them civilian. APM created a battle tank (50t?) that mounted a 
ship's fusion gun - the most awesome weapon short of a tank m-gun.

13. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your
preference for designing starships: (Book 2, Starships, Book 5, High
Guard, MegaTraveller, FF&S)
MT, for its plug-in equipment and stealth capabilities, plus its higher 
level of detail than HG. However, if FF&S was easier to use and 
compatable with the earlier versions of Trav, I would probably prefer to 
use it. I like to tinker with items to give the players a unique "gimmick".

14. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your
preference for designing vehicles (Striker, MegaTraveller, FF&S)
MT is really just Striker without the different armour facings and 
battlefield meson accelerator. Add these in, and using my spreadsheet, I 
prefer MT (ie. I prefer a structured Striker - which FF&S should have been).

>From David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com):
>What was needed was a complement of equipment designs that
>could be dropped into other designs...

Yes! This IS the concept that this list dubbed FF&S Lite.

>FF&S was the logical next step from the MT and HG design rules, but GDW
shot
>itself in the foot by totally revamping the entire Science basis for most
of
>the universe.

Agreed wholeheartedly. Again, as per MT, no conversion rules/backwards 
compatability. As this list often noted, if you designed things from 
scratch under FF&S, the standard ships would *never* have been built.

PLEASE bring out FF&S Lite + Advanced (and backwards-compatable). I'd 
like to see that.

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 19:40:38 -0600
Subject: Re: New or Old Starship Designs

At 05:52 pm 5/29/96 -0600, dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin) wrote:
>Fellow Traveller starship fans;
>
>I am creating the first of the expansions for the new Marc Miller's
>Traveller series, appropriately named Starships. I am interested in any aid
>that you can give me. I am using the starship building rules from the
>original Classic Traveller book for small ships, and the High Guard system
>for larger ships. There have been some minor modifications, but the only

        This really depressed me ... is anybody at Imperium Games actually
listening to what people say they want? Quoting from the Whither Traveller
Survey results:

>DESIGN RULES
>
>CT Ships                    RM                                                1
>HG/MT Ships                 PMc, W, LP, WR, MS                                5
>FF&S Re-write               Cy, DG, M, W, SC, DCB, BJ, J, A, CW, JL, SS, ER, 23
>                            JZ, AZ, Kmbr, MAT, JN, CrB, RM, Borich, EWF, DJW
>FF&S Lite                   M, SC, DCB, A, J, CC, CW, C, W, rob, EW, SS, HH, 28
>                            ER, DG, JZ, Kmbr, MAT, WR, CrB, AMc, RM, DB, PW,
>                            Borich, SMA, EWF, DJW


Note where the CT/High Guard results landed: 6 out of 57? And the recent
thread about design sequences seems to be showing similar results. 

Not that people object to a simplified design system ... FF&S Light was the
most popular idea. But they want it to be CONSISTENT! which a CG/HG mix is
definitely not, and they want it FLEXIBLE, which CG/HG lacks, and they want
it EXTENSIBLE to GREATER DETAIL, which CT/HG does not provide.

I'm going to continue to follow this list, and support Traveller via my Web
Page, but right now I'm not even going to think about wasting my money on a
retrograde rule set. If I wanted to play CT or HG, I could already. But I
don't and I haven't for years.

Just my opinion. Considered comments to the list or to me, flames to
gatekeeper@hell.org.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 22:34:06 -0400
Subject: IG buying TV ad space

Jeff writes:
>  Maybe buying a "spot" during Star Trek/ST:TNG/ST:DS9/ST:V and/or
>  during Babylon 5 or during SeaQuest:DSV (if it's still on) or
>  during Sliders (ditto) or... would be a good idea as well.  Maybe
>  space in Asimov's would also be a good idea.

  For the most bang-for-da-buck, I would suggest B5.  For one thing,
it's a better SF show than DS9 or ST:Lost in Space.  
  It has more of a Traveller feel, for me at least, as well.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
               http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 22:42:01 -0400
Subject: body armor

John writes:
>As far as protection is concerned, a flack jacket is only good against
>schrapnel and pistols.  The assesment that very little will protect you
>against (heavy) machinegun fire is quite correct.  The only thing I've seen
>actualy stop a BMG is the hide of an M-1 tank (which I've also seen stop the
>rapira-3 ammo described above.)  If you're considering the penetration rules
>you might want to take this into consideration.  

  As I had to explain to one kid in a SR game, "It's not a 'bullet-proof'
suit, merely 'bullet-resistant'."  The twit didn't get it and ran out where
da bad guys, in set positions with .30 cal ARs, proceeded to shoot him full
of very many holes.

  You can get a vest that will stop a 7.62 NATO round, but the metal plates
weigh lot and is rather cumbersome.  Translate this to game terms, do your
characters want to be well protected, or slowed down enough to be easier
targets for head shots? :-) 
  You probably are safer in the tank, since you once you armor the legs,
head, etc. as well, the local police will ask why you are wearing combat
armor in the local mall...but then they would also ask questions about the
tank. :-)



- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
eclipse@ultranet.com -- These opinions are mine, no one else wants `em.
               http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy spot 
on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 673
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 673

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Bunnies as Player Characters
	by "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
  2) M-240 SAW
	by David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
  3) 2300AD
	by Mark Fletcher <mf1@st-andrews.ac.uk>
  4) Planetary Assualts
	by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
  5) logistics
	by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
  6) Re: M-240 SAW
	by "Jason R. Weiser" <his4jrw@cabell.vcu.edu>
  7) More in defence of battledress
	by Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com>
  8) [T670] Reality outstrips SF -- again
	by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
  9) Re: Dedicated TNE List
	by Bri <bri@teleport.com>
 10) Milieu 0
	by ereddoch@amaranth.com
 11) Power Armor
	by John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
 12) TL-8 Ballistic Missile
	by Michael.Barry@FINANCE.ausgovfinance.telememo.au

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 26 Apr 1996 13:21:51 -0400
From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Bunnies as Player Characters
Message-ID: <9604261321.AA51298@caw.intercon.com>


> You guys need to check out OCS' game Battlelords of the 23rd Century.  
> In their Galctic Handbook II, they introduce a race of 
> genenginered rabbits that are about 6' tall plus ears.  They are 
> bipedal, and are designed to act like rednecks from the Deep South 
> (U.S.).  

Even better, try the RPG Albedo, based on the _Erma Felna_ comic.  The 
Interstellar Lupine Republic is a racist splinter government, based on the 
premise that rabbits are the superior lifeform.  They are locked in a cold 
(but getting warmer) war with the Confederation government, a collection of 
several species.  All the species are genengineered from Terran animals, for 
reasons unknown to the characters.

This RPG actually has a very hard science background, and is worth purchasing 
just for that.  I even prefer the Albedo jump drive explanation over 
Traveller's...

Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
someday agree with something I say.


- ------------------------------

Date: 28 Apr 96 09:40:43 EDT
From: David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: M-240 SAW
Message-ID: <960428134043_100605.3625_BHL50-1@CompuServe.COM>

>> We have just adopted a new LMG, the M-240, but I'm not really aware of its
characteristics yet. <<

5.56mm, based on the FN Minimi, either belt fed from drums or uses M16 magazines
without modification, adopted as the squad automatic weapon (SAW). Canada and
one or two other NATO nations use it as well. The M60 is retained at platoon
level, I believe.

                            David


- ------------------------------

Date: Sun, 28 Apr 1996 16:02:44 +0100 (BST)
From: Mark Fletcher <mf1@st-andrews.ac.uk>

------------------------------

From: "David Reed" <nacht@neosoft.com>
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 22:16:20 -0500
Subject: Tact is for weenies...

This lack of couth is by no means to be construed in any way to agree with
any
negative opinions about anyone who may or may not have worked for GDW. 
;-)
                                                                          
         ^^^^^^^^
- ----------
Chepe Lockett <Josephjlockett@io.com> scribbled:

> Given that both Loren Wiseman (and, through him, possibly at least some 
> other ex-GDW staff) and, possibly soon, the email-capable David Nilsen,
> might be reading this list, mightn't a little more decorum and, say,
> simple politeness be in order?

Um...  Why?  We're all quasi-adults here, playing games...  ;-)  I think 
criticism is a healthy thing, be it polite or not.  A block of sodium
chloride
or two might also be helpful, since we all tend to get a bit emotional
about
these toys we've invested so much psychic energy in...
 
> I find personal accusations like "sophomoric" or the various anti-
> Traveller motives attributed to GDW staff short-sighted, intolerant,
> and generally uncalled-for.  And I doubt I am alone.

Well, let's look...  Twilight: 2000 [end of the world as we know it],
Merc: 2000
[almost the end of the world as we know it], Dark Conspiracy [end of the
world 
as we know it], MegaTraveller, Hard Times, and TNE [end of Traveller as we

know it].  Oops, how could I forget Cadillacs and Dinosaurs? [end of
roleplaying
as we know it].  I'm sorry, but I see a trend here...  [2300AD was omitted
due to
lack of author's knowledge.  -ed.]

BTW, The Ithklur "Buddha" wore a Santa Klaus hat, for pity's sake!!! 
*scream*

I remember speculating to a friend way back when DC came out, along with a
few nice supplements like DarkTek...  "Who are these guys?  Prophets of
Doom?
Every game they publish seems to be the world gone all to hell..."  BTW, I
miss
DC.  Who owns the rights to it?

An evesdropping game store proprietor noted, "Well, they missed the boat,
really.
All the gloom-and-doom stuff has been and gone, and now everyone wants 
something a little more upbeat...  Typical GDW."  [Only the names have
been
witheld to protect the not-so-innocent-thieving-shopkeeper-types.  -ed.]

This is in no way to be construed to mean that I am against ending the
world
as we know it (or shopkeeping)...  Although, I have a number of schemes in
the 
works at the moment to achieve just that...  *cackle*

Just noting a trend...
 
> You are, of course, welcome to disagree about the content or style of
> published Traveller material, from whatever "era" -- but please don't
> be quite so obstreperous about it!

Thbbbbbbt!  I was impressed that somebody out there has a pair!  So lay
off 'im!
Loren and company are big boyz...  [This is not to be construed as a
sexist
statement, because metaphorically speaking, women could theoretically
"have
a pair", too, as well as a $5 vocabulary list.  -ed.]

On a lighter note, I AM VERY EXCITED that Imperium Games is taking full
advantage of those of us who have no lives other than this mailing list
and
Traveller...  Keep up the good work, guys!!!  (Was that enough to get my
two hardcovers a little quicker?  ;-)
- -- 

Dave
nacht@neosoft.com

Zen:  "If you wish to find the unclouded truth, do not concern
           yourself with right and wrong.  Conflicts with right and
           wrong are a sickness of the mind."


------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 23:26:13 -0600
Subject: FF&S Lite

On 05/30/96 at 11:30 AM,  Noel Kelly <nkelly@pcug.org.au> said:

>4. Have you ever used the posted FF&S Lite rules to design items?  

> I thought this was only a discussion idea - or is this what I
> missed in Mar-April?

I was around...I think, didn't miss any digests...I don't think!

What FF&S Lite rules are ya'll talking about?

I'm with Noel, it was discussed, but what rules got posted, when and
where?  Especially where!!!

Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 23:14:51 -0600
Subject: Re: New or Old Starship Designs

On 05/29/96 at 05:52 PM,  dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin) said:

I noticed 
>Computer table:
>Capacity is rated as optimum foreground/background capacity.

>Model   Mcr     Capacity    Jump
>1       2         2/4        1
>1bis    4         4/0        2
>2       9         3/6        2

   ---snip---
   
I noticed a few minor changes from my copy of CT in the computer
tables you posted.  A few computers took more volumn and there was a
difference in some prices.  Can we take it that book 2 and 5 are
pretty close to what we'll end up with in T4?

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 30 May 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 028

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: Apologies...
         2. RE: IG buying TV ad space

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 04:56:11 -0500
Subject: RE: Apologies...

> 
> Stu
> "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from
"Foundation"
>
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ---------
> This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently
located next to
> Bob's Pet Shop.
> Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    
> 
could you Please Change your tag line?
- --
                   The Druid
     The Grove BBS (502) 439-1664
              druid@datatek.com
                   rtrav@msn.com

------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 05:01:02 -0500
Subject: RE: IG buying TV ad space

>   For the most bang-for-da-buck, I would suggest B5.  For one thing,
> it's a better SF show than DS9 or ST:Lost in Space.  
>   It has more of a Traveller feel, for me at least, as well.
> 
Yes, but it does not have the ratings.

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 30 May 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 029

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: New or Old Starship Designs
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #27
         3. end school year must leave
         4. Traveller Sale/Auction
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #27
         6. Re: FF&S Lite
         7. Re: FF&S Lite
         8. FFS and MM's Traveller
         9. Re: FFS and MM's Traveller
        10. Apologies and a question...
        11. T4 Ship Design
        12. Re: FFS and MM's Traveller
        13. Re: Tact is for weenies...
        14. Mr. Perrin's MSG re: Starships
        15. Re: FFS and MM's Traveller
        16. Re: Design system poll

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 14:25:38 +0100 (METDST)
Subject: Re: New or Old Starship Designs

> Computer table:
> Capacity is rated as optimum foreground/background capacity.
> 
> Model   Mcr     Capacity    Jump
> 1       2         2/4        1
> 1bis    4         4/0        2
> 2       9         3/6        2
> 2bis    18        6/0        3
> 3       18        5/9        3
> 4       30        8/15       4
> 5       45       12/25       5
> 6       55       15/35       6
> 7       80       20/50       6
> 
> Size (in tons) of Computers by Tech Level
> 
>         TL A    TL B    TL C    TL D    TL E    TL F
> 1 Model 5 tons  3       2       1       1       1
> 1bis    5       3       2       1       1       1
> 2       8       5       3       2       1       1
> 2bis    8       5       3       2       1       1
> 3       12      7       4       3       2       1
> 4       20      10      5       4       2       1
> 5       n/a     15      7       5       3       1
> 6       n/a     n/a     10      6       4       2
> 7       n/a     n/a     n/a     7       5       3
> 
> If you have any glaring holes in the building systems, or any comments on
> how to easily update it where you think it needs it, please feel free to
> email me. I may not take every suggestion, but I will consider all
> suggestions.

One thing: Allow higher types of computers at lowish tech levels but at
a BIG increase in size and price. After all, saying that we can make a hand 
computer with the capacity of univac today is really the same as saying that
they could make a hand computer the size of a room 40 years ago. There would
be a lower limit, of course, but theoretically one could make a type 9
computer with vacuum tube technology - it would just be one BIIIIIG sucker!

Going the other way, make the type 1 computers' size neglible at TL E and
F and the same for the type 2 and 3 computers at TL F.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

From: "Ross Coburn" <ross@odyssee.net>
Date: 30 May 96 08:52:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #27

- --Cyberdog-AltBoundary-0003B95E
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>Note where the CT/High Guard results landed: 6 out of 57? And the
recent
>thread about design sequences seems to be showing similar results. 
>
>Not that people object to a simplified design system ... FF&S Light
was the
>most popular idea. But they want it to be CONSISTENT! which a CG/HG
mix is
>definitely not, and they want it FLEXIBLE, which CG/HG lacks, and
they want
>it EXTENSIBLE to GREATER DETAIL, which CT/HG does not provide.

One thing you might wish to consider is that, by and large, the
denizens of mail lists such as these tend to be the hardcore fans, not
the casual gamers that Traveller must attract if it is to grow at all.
 The vast majority of players want something they don't need a degree
in physics to use, and that provides them with a design solution that
is, above all, ELEGANT.  High Guard was fairly straightforward and
internally consistent, even if it did leave a lot of excruciating
detail out.  MT was a mess, and I cannot comment on T:NG (sorry) as i
never bought it.  it seemed to me to fall the furthest from the "feel"
of the original in its rush to be all-encompassing.

If a significant core market of old time players demand a more
complicated design sequence, what is to stop IG from producing it
later, once the game is up and running?  The original Traveller was
nothing if not modular...


My 0.02 (in any currency)

Ross Coburn
ross@odyssee.net

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<SMALLER><SMALLER><X-FONTSIZE><PARAM>9</PARAM><X-FONTNAME><PARAM>Geneva=
</PARAM>>Note where the CT/High Guard results landed: 6 out of 57? And
the recent

>thread about design sequences seems to be showing similar results. 

>

>Not that people object to a simplified design system ... FF&S Light
was the

>most popular idea. But they want it to be CONSISTENT! which a CG/HG
mix is

>definitely not, and they want it FLEXIBLE, which CG/HG lacks, and
they want

</X-FONTNAME></X-FONTSIZE></SMALLER></SMALLER><SMALLER><X-FONTSIZE><PAR=
AM>10</PARAM><X-FONTNAME><PARAM>Geneva</PARAM>></X-FONTNAME></X-FONTSIZ=
E></SMALLER><SMALLER><SMALLER><X-FONTSIZE><PARAM>9</PARAM><X-FONTNAME><=
PARAM>Geneva</PARAM>it EXTENSIBLE to GREATER DETAIL, which CT/HG does
not provide.

</X-FONTNAME></X-FONTSIZE></SMALLER></SMALLER><SMALLER><X-FONTSIZE><PAR=
AM>10</PARAM><X-FONTNAME><PARAM>Geneva</PARAM>

One thing you might wish to consider is that, by and large, the
denizens of mail lists such as these tend to be the hardcore fans, not
the casual gamers that Traveller must attract if it is to grow at all.
 The vast majority of players want something they don't need a degree
in physics to use, and that provides them with a design solution that
is, above all, ELEGANT.  High Guard was fairly straightforward and
internally consistent, even if it did leave a lot of excruciating
detail out.  MT was a mess, and I cannot comment on T:NG (sorry) as i
never bought it.  it seemed to me to fall the furthest from the "feel"
of the original in its rush to be all-encompassing.


If a significant core market of old time players demand a more
complicated design sequence, what is to stop IG from producing it
later, once the game is up and running?  The original Traveller was
nothing if not modular...



My 0.02 (in any currency)


Ross Coburn

ross@odyssee.net


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------------------------------

From: "The Phoenix" <WALLDANI@scfc.cache.k12.ut.us>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 07:52:15 MDT
Subject: end school year must leave

Goodbye, all.  It's been fun.

------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 10:42:34 -0400
Subject: Traveller Sale/Auction

Greetings All:

I'm having a sale/auction of my duplicates. I've got a fair number of Classic
items, along with some MegaTrave and New Era stuff, plus a **lot** of issues
of Challenge.

Please e-mail me for the list. US and Canadian customers only, please, sorry.

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)

------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 11:13:02 PDT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #27

Ross Coburn writes: [snipped]
>
>One thing you might wish to consider is that, by and large, the
>denizens of mail lists such as these tend to be the hardcore fans, not
>the casual gamers that Traveller must attract if it is to grow at all.
> The vast majority of players want something they don't need a degree
>in physics to use, and that provides them with a design solution that
>is, above all, ELEGANT.  High Guard was fairly straightforward and

My impression was that FFS was a response to the *demand* for more real
science in Traveller. The *real* science that was started in 2300 was
importred into TNE/FFS. Let's face it, an RPG without *hard* science
may as well be fantasy. 

The problem is: at what level is it represented in game terms. The
referee is the one that deals with the selection of design elements
from FFS. My players don't know the science or the problems with
designing from FFS at all. They also don't really care until I tell
them they cannot put that on their ship.

I like FFS. The starship stuff is a bit thick, but I can work around
it. The other equipment design stuff is great. When used in the context
of the combat system, the vehicle/weapon design results are very
consistent.

I also run/play other of GDWs *core* systems. MERC, TW2000, DC, and
even Cadillacs. Some of the designs I came up with went into those
systems as well. 

The starship design sequence needs plug-ins that are consistent with
the rules, (especially space weapons and electronics) but the science
is all there. 

Having been part of a senior design project for a mining mission to
Phobos, I understand the design tradeoffs that are necessary based on
mission. Spacecraft are hard to design.

I think that FFS goes a long way to easing that difficulty. I for one
would like to see plug-ins for FFS rather than a return to the CT/MT.

Sorry for the length, but there's my 1.63 in [you-name-it] currency.

- --norm fenlason
Kennesaw GA USA


------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 11:15:02 PDT
Subject: Re: FF&S Lite

I would like to see FFS lite as well!!!

- --norm fenlason
Kennesaw GA USA



------------------------------

From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 17:46:57 +0200
Subject: Re: FF&S Lite

normf@wegener.com wrote:
> 
> I would like to see FFS lite as well!!!
> 
> --norm fenlason
> Kennesaw GA USA

The FFS Light is available at
   http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html

This is the site of David J. Golden.
- -- 
- ---------------------------
Tommy Grav         | tommyg@ifi.uio.no
University in Oslo | http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/
Norway             |        No qoute yet.

------------------------------

From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 18:01:28 +0200
Subject: FFS and MM's Traveller

I'm disappionted that Imperium Games has decided to use the 
CT starships form. I had really hoped that they would keep
TNE ships. I am a relative newcomer to Traveller and I only
have some TNE stuff. I have looked through the old black books
down at the gamesshop and seen some CT ships posted on various 
www-sites and cant' say I like the way its data is given. It's 
confusing.

I guess its a money thing, but I had hoped that IG had kept 
FFS, or at least made a book like it. I like FFS because I
referee a self-designed world and have a clear view of what
my ships should look like. I have would have converted to the
new version, since I'm quite a fan, but now I'm not sure.
I need the FFS supplement to make my world come to life.

I guess I could try to use the TNE ship forms and change
the rules of the new version so that it would fit in.
Yippi, more work. 

Sorry for the rambling, but I'm frustrated that when I find
things I enjoy something always comes along to ruin the fun.

- -- 
- ---------------------------
Tommy Grav, University of Oslo, Norway 
Email: tommyg@ifi.uio.no. 
WWW-Page: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/
"Sooner or later the worst set of circumstances are bound to occur."

------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 13:22:52 PDT
Subject: Re: FFS and MM's Traveller

Tommy wrote:
>I'm disappionted that Imperium Games has decided to use the 
>CT starships form. I had really hoped that they would keep
>TNE ships. I am a relative newcomer to Traveller and I only
>have some TNE stuff. I have looked through the old black books
>down at the gamesshop and seen some CT ships posted on various 
>www-sites and cant' say I like the way its data is given. It's 
>confusing.

I agree with Tommy on this one. I do not think that I will go back to
the CT ship design. I will continue to use FFS in its present or (some
modified) form. I do not like the too simple combat system of CT. I
prefer (as do my players) the hex grid combat. 

Anyone else?

BTW, thanks Tommy for the FFS Lite pointer.

- --norm fenlason
Kennesaw GA USA


------------------------------

From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 13:59:02 -0400
Subject: Apologies and a question...

Apologies to all who got the following question asked them directly -- I was 
careless with my group addressing, and sent it to my Traveller address book 
iunsteda of to the Traveller list.

But, to those who didn't get it:

Is Imperium Games or any of the people currently working on Traveller going to 
be at Origins?  

If so, are they going to be in a set location?  I imagine that Greg Porter 
will be found at the BTRC booth, but how about everyone else?

Thanks!

Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
someday agree with something I say.


------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 10:27:18 -0800
Subject: T4 Ship Design

>From: dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin)
>Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 17:52:40 -0600
>Subject: New or Old Starship Designs
>
>Fellow Traveller starship fans;
>
>I am creating the first of the expansions for the new Marc Miller's
>Traveller series, appropriately named Starships. I am interested in any aid
>that you can give me. I am using the starship building rules from the
>original Classic Traveller book for small ships, and the High Guard system
>for larger ships. There have been some minor modifications, but the only
>one that will affect how things are done is that Jump drives are restricted
>to tech levels A and above
>
That is a bad move: CT-HG is too simple for most players, and the clamor is
for an FF&S Lite/MT-Lite type of system. NOT the simplistic
oversimplification of Book2 &/or HG. Knowing this as of now, while I WILL
buy T4, neither I nor any of the four players in my group of 7 who are
gonna buy T4 will buy starships.

[snip]
>If you have any glaring holes in the building systems, or any comments on
>how to easily update it where you think it needs it, please feel free to
>email me. I may not take every suggestion, but I will consider all
>suggestions.

None of the computers hsould mass over a ton at TL10+. Please also drop the
"Software" rules from the CT model: They're so inheretly broke that I have
never met ANYONE who actually used them in the '80's, let alone would they
be used now.

Don, Please reconsider your approach, as you might gain a few by
simplicity, but you will alienate many many more by it.

Sincerely,

William F. Hostman

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 14:29:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: FFS and MM's Traveller

The nice thing about a simple, CT style system is it is easily adapted and
added to should referees and players desire more detail.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 12:53:13 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Tact is for weenies...

I'll disregard the miserable subject line and just argue with the body of
the text:

Quoth David Reed:
> Chepe Lockett <jlockett@io.com> scribbled:
> > mightn't a little more decorum and, say, simple politeness be in order?
> 
> Um...  Why?  We're all quasi-adults here, playing games...  ;-)  I think 
> criticism is a healthy thing, be it polite or not.

CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is healthy.  Impoliteness is not, nor personal 
attacks.  J. Michael Straczynski left the UseNet Babylon-5 newsgroup
because of the personal attacks and vendettas launched there, depriving
many fans of his obvious insight and expertise until a moderated newsgroup
could be established to exclude the boobs, idiots, and sickos.

Like it or not, the former staff members of GDW (Wiseman, Chadwick, Nilsen)
have valuable experience and information about Traveller in ALL of its 
incarnations.  And while you personally may not agree with some of the steps
they took with the game, other may.  Are you so childish that you'll drive
off anyone who disagrees with you?  Dave Nilsen arguably knows as much 
about the Traveller background as anyone else (MM included), and the 
inconsistences thereof.  Mightn't that be a valuable perspective?

I've met Dave Nilsen at two separate Origins conventions where I was 
staffing (for SJG, not GDW).  He's a kind, personable human being, and
he had good reasons for everything he did and wrote.  You may not agree
with all of them (I don't), but that's no reason to attack the man as 
well as his work.  Would you act as you do in person?  I have this image
of you, Butthead-like, muttering "Huh-huh. It sucks." without meeting his
eyes.  That's the maturity level you're advocating.  And it's that 
attitude which sucks.

> > I find personal accusations like "sophomoric" or the various anti-
> > Traveller motives attributed to GDW staff short-sighted, intolerant,
> > and generally uncalled-for.  And I doubt I am alone.
> 
> Well, let's look...  Twilight: 2000 [end of the world as we know it],
> Merc: 2000 [almost the end of the world as we know it], Dark Conspiracy 
> [end of the world as we know it], MegaTraveller, Hard Times, and TNE 
> [end of Traveller as we know it].  Oops, how could I forget Cadillacs 
> and Dinosaurs? [end of roleplaying as we know it].  I'm sorry, but I 
> see a trend here...  

Jesus Christ, you half-wit, what reject logic class have you oozed in from?
Do you seriously intend that catalogue to justify your attitude?  I could go
on and on about the need for conflict in drama, the hopeful elements present
in several of those settings, etc., but you're just not worth it.

> [2300AD was omitted due to lack of author's knowledge.  -ed.]

So was Space:1889, and both were hopful settings.  Bad research.  Bad 
reasoning.  Bad attitude.

> BTW, The Ithklur "Buddha" wore a Santa Klaus hat, for pity's sake!!! 
> *scream*

So?  If you don't like it, change it.  But at least don't attack the man
who wrote it personally, since others here might appreciate it.  Or is 
that too much for you to comprehend?

<juvenile marketing commentary, irrelevant AGAIN to the current 
discussion, deleted>

> > You are, of course, welcome to disagree about the content or style of
> > published Traveller material, from whatever "era" -- but please don't
> > be quite so obstreperous about it!
> 
> Thbbbbbbt!  I was impressed that somebody out there has a pair!  So lay
> off 'im!  Loren and company are big boyz...  [This is not to be construed
> as a sexist statement, because metaphorically speaking, women could 
> theoretically "have a pair", too, as well as a $5 vocabulary list.  -ed.]

I'm happy you have a pair.  Just don't think with them.  And have a care 
for others' desires and likes before wanking off in public.

> Dave
> nacht@neosoft.com

Good God, I'm ashamed to be sharing the same city with you.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: fcain@st6000.sct.edu (Franklin W. Cain)
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 15:11:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Mr. Perrin's MSG re: Starships

Mr. Perrin:

I have been a fan of Traveller since my sophomore year in high school
(79-80).  I have a copy of *every* Traveller product published by GDW,
with the exception of the very earliest issues of JTAS.  

I *never* liked the construction rules in CT Book2; I always used Book5
(HG) for starship construction (until Brilliant Lances & FFS came along,
that is, whereupon I dropped Book5 like a hot potato).  

Some of my complaints about Book2 (and Book5, to a lesser extent, where
applicable) are as follows: 

	1) The capacity of computers compared to the requirements of
programs is ridiculously inadequate for a industrial technological society
that is *several* *thousand* years old.  (I am a computer professional who
has studied the trends of increasing capacity vs. increasing needs, with
avid interest, for many years.) 

	2) The vector-based movement system of Book2 was too
space-consuming at the scale used (one inch representing one thousand
miles).  In Book5, however, the resolution of combat/movement was *completely*
intangible (which is intolerable to an anal-retentive detail-freak like me
:-).  

	3) The design systems made *no* allowance for sensor and/or commo 
systems (range; detection/counter-detection; detail of resolution; etc.).  

	4) Book2 produced starship design that were space-inefficient when 
compared to Book5 (*my* Bk5 X-Boats had J5 *and* M1; under FFS, they had
J4, M1, *and* 1,000 flight computers [simulating the mythical "extensive
arrays of databanks" always mentioned but never seen]).  
	(BTW: Can you *really* envision the Vilani using an as inefficient
a means of designing merchant ships as this? :-) 

In short, now that I've been spoiled with FFS, anything less is
insufficient.  I would suggest that you design a modular system in the
same *style* as Book2, but build the various modules/components using your
/ IG's version of FFS.  (Then you can "publish" your version of FFS on your
web page for the gearheads amongst us who want it.)  

You and Marc and Ken have said that you're revising the CT rules "in light
of 20+ years of experience."  As *several* members of this list (i.e.,
"potential customers") have stated, once you have a light-detail framework
in place, it will be difficult to design a more detailed framework *that*
*fits*; if you *start* with a more-detailed framework (even if you never
publish it), you can "dumb-down" the level of detail very easily.  

OTOH, you asked us to tell you if we saw any "glaring holes."  Your chart
of "Size (in displacement tons) of Computers by Tech Level" forgot that
*spaceships* (not starships) can be built at TL-7, 8, and 9.  You need
entries for these TL's on your chart.  

I'd be interested in hearing your refutation/rebuttal.  Thank you.  

Franklin 


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 14:39:40 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: FFS and MM's Traveller

On Thu, 30 May 1996, Tommy Grav wrote:

> I guess its a money thing, but I had hoped that IG had kept 
> FFS, or at least made a book like it. I like FFS because I

I don't think anyone has ruled out a supplement with complex rules such 
as those in FFS.  IG has only given us a peak at what the /core/ rules 
will be.  Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! :)  If IG follows 
the product development method of the CT era, I think folks such as 
yourself can look forward to a system much more to your liking being 
presented as a supplement.

Am I right, Mr. Whitman?

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: jwbrewer@ucsd.edu (James W Brewer)
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 12:45:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Design system poll

>The What Design System Are You Using Poll:
>1. Are you currently playing Traveller using Traveller: The New Era 
>rules, regardless of setting?    Yes
>
>2.  Do you own a copy of FF&S (Fire, Fusion & Steel)?  Yes
>
>3. Have you ever used FF&S to design a starship, weapon, vehicle or 
>other items?  Yes
>
>4. Have you ever used the posted FF&S Lite rules to design items?  No
>     
>5.  Do you own the Megatraveller Rules?  Yes
>
>6. Have you ever designed a starship, vehicle, or small craft with 
>the MegaTraveller rules?  Yes
>
>7. Do you own a version of the Classic Traveller rules (Traveller 
>Book, Little black books, Deluxe Traveller, Starter Traveller)?  Yes
>
>8.  Do you have Book 5, High Guard?  Yes
>
>9.  Do you have Striker?  Not at present
>
>10.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 2, Starships?  yes
>
>11.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 5, High Guard?  Yes
>
>12. Have you ever designed vehicles or other items using Striker?  Yes
>
>13. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
>preference for designing starships: (Book 2, Starships, Book 5, High 
>Guard, MegaTraveller, FF&S)        Brillant Lances (For most ships and
small craft it is good enough, and much faster than FF&S)
>
>14. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
>preference for designing vehicles (Striker, MegaTraveller, FF&S)  Striker
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #29
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 30 May 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 030

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: FFS and MM's Traveller
         2. RE: FFS and MM's Traveller
         3. Simple Ship Design Processes
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #27
         5. design rules poll reply.
         6. Re : New or Old Starship Designs
         7. Dissin Nilsen - stop it!
         8. Re: FFS and MM's Traveller
         9. [none]
        10. Re: New T4 DEsign Rules
        11. Re: Tact is for weenies...
        12. Re: New or Old Starship Designs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 14:20:17 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: FFS and MM's Traveller

 
> I don't think anyone has ruled out a supplement with complex rules such 
> as those in FFS.  IG has only given us a peak at what the /core/ rules 
> will be.  Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! :)  If IG follows 
> the product development method of the CT era, I think folks such as 
> yourself can look forward to a system much more to your liking being 
> presented as a supplement.

I think that this statement is basically true---but it requires that
certain adjustments are made to baseline HG (IMO).

Since in the case of weapons/screens factors include number of weapons,
weapon "strength", TL, to-hit, screen penetration, and damage it makes a
later FFS-type system much harder to fit in.

I'd also like to see sensors added.  They could mesh with HG by lowering
the bridge % such that once you add the "new" sensors the result comes
out close for old designs (the old designs would be assumed to have some
basic sensor package depending on ship type subsumed in the bridge %).

Then just add an extension to the USP for sensor type (with factor being
range, say).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 15:37:55 -0500
Subject: RE: FFS and MM's Traveller

> I guess its a money thing, but I had hoped that IG had kept 
> FFS, or at least made a book like it. I like FFS because I
> referee a self-designed world and have a clear view of what
> my ships should look like. I have would have converted to the
> new version, since I'm quite a fan, but now I'm not sure.
> I need the FFS supplement to make my world come to life.

I've been playing whatever you want to call this game since approx. '79...
And I have to admit that i thought the presentation format of FF&S was a
little confusing...almost as bad as the character generation (naw,
impossible). 
While a person could say "well, everybody likes the system that they first
learned best" I do not think this was the case; I loved FF&S, because it
was interesting, complex, and open, but it was MORE complicated for a new
player or ref to understand easily, in comparison to CT.
BTW, has anyone considered the possibility that imperium might not legally
be able to use the material from FF&S? kinda like TSR "had" to switch to
2nd ed. ADnD, because E. Gygax withdrew permission?
Anyway, i get the distinct impression that the upcoming release will be
MUCH easier to learn, and therefore, more likely to achieve popularity.
I am gonna miss FF&S, tho.

- --
                   The Druid
     The Grove BBS (502) 439-1664
              druid@datatek.com
                   rtrav@msn.com


------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 30 May 96 15:28:07 -0600
Subject: Simple Ship Design Processes

On 05/30/96 at 08:52 AM,  "Ross Coburn" <ross@odyssee.net> said:

>>Note where the CT/High Guard results landed: 6 out of 57? 

>One thing you might wish to consider is that, by and large, the
>denizens of mail lists such as these tend to be the hardcore fans,
>not the casual gamers that Traveller must attract if it is to grow at
>all.

I was thinking the same thing last night.  Traveller isn't the details
of the technology, it's the interaction of the PC's with strange and
new enviornments.  The ships were always just a way of getting them
there.

> The vast majority of players want something they don't need a degree
>in physics to use, and that provides them with a design solution that
>is, above all, ELEGANT.  High Guard was fairly straightforward and
>internally consistent, even if it did leave a lot of excruciating
>detail out.

Went back and looked over Books 2 and 5 (Starships and High
Guard)..and remembered why I ended up rolling my own design process. 
Simple...too simple, not enough detail for me.

>MT was a mess...

Yes it was.  I had high hopes, but never could figure it out. Turns
out it wasn't me, it was errata city.  I ended up continuing with my
own methods.

>If a significant core market of old time players demand a more
>complicated design sequence, what is to stop IG from producing it
>later, once the game is up and running?  The original Traveller was
>nothing if not modular...

Yes, I'll want the ability to include more detail, but I can stay with
my own techniques until IG give me a good FF&S like system.

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: jmg141@psu.edu (John M Gardner)
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 16:34:39 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #27

>> We have just adopted a new LMG, the M-240, but I'm not really aware of its
characteristics yet. <<

5.56mm, based on the FN Minimi, either belt fed from drums or uses M16 magazines
without modification, adopted as the squad automatic weapon (SAW). Canada and
one or two other NATO nations use it as well. The M60 is retained at platoon
level, I believe.

Incorrect.  The M-240 is 7.62mm nato, belt fed, and quite heavy.  It is
actualy used as a COAX or pintel mounted weapon.  (especialy on the M-1
tank.)  The SAW  IS 5.56mm as you describe, but I believe the designator is
M-239.


------------------------------

From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 22:52:15 +0100
Subject: design rules poll reply.

In reply to the design system poll:

1. Are you currently playing Traveller using Traveller: The New Era 
rules, regardless of setting?    Yes.

2.  Do you own a copy of FF&S (Fire, Fusion & Steel)?  Yes.

3. Have you ever used FF&S to design a starship, weapon, vehicle or 
other items?  Yes.

4. Have you ever used the posted FF&S Lite rules to design items?  No,
   But what I've seen of it looks good.
     
5.  Do you own the Megatraveller Rules?  Yes.

6. Have you ever designed a starship, vehicle, or small craft with 
the MegaTraveller rules?  Took one look and decided against.

7. Do you own a version of the Classic Traveller rules (Traveller 
Book, Little black books, Deluxe Traveller, Starter Traveller)?  Yes.

8.  Do you have Book 5, High Guard?  Yes.

9.  Do you have Striker?  No.

10.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 2, Starships?  No, took one look
     and decided against.

11.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 5, High Guard?  No. took one look
     and decided against.

12. Have you ever designed vehicles or other items using Striker?  No.

13. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
preference for designing starships: (Book 2, Starships, Book 5, High 
Guard, MegaTraveller, FF&S)        
			**********FF&S***********

14. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
preference for designing vehicles (Striker, MegaTraveller, FF&S) N/A.

I have to say I liked FF&S - it gave you a feel for your design. The old
ship info data system is awful! I can visualize conversations like this:

"Hey ref, how many lasers has this thing got?"

"003 batt 2 bear 2."

"3 turrets eh?"

"No, factor 3."

"Which is?"

"Wait until I calculate back from the rules."

TNE ship data sheets gave a real feel to the ship.

Eamon Watters.





------------------------------

From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 23:09:36 +0100
Subject: Re : New or Old Starship Designs

Don Perrin sent:

>Fellow Traveller starship fans;

>I am creating the first of the expansions for the new Marc Miller's
>Traveller series, appropriately named Starships. I am interested in any aid
>that you can give me. I am using the starship building rules from the
>original Classic Traveller book for small ships, and the High Guard system
>for larger ships. There have been some minor modifications, but the only
>one that will affect how things are done is that Jump drives are restricted
>to tech levels A and above

Why those old rules! At least with FF&S you felt that the ships were
feasible, if a bit heavy. All this stuff about factors and 'can my computer
fit a program in?' is so unreal. 

Why also the change in Jump Drive min tech level? Tl 9 starships are cool, if
you're a nasty gm. :->
The TL change will invalidate a lot of prior material - expecially in the New 
Era......hmmmmm.


I think whatever design system is used it should be easy to use and realistic -
these arn't mutually exclusive goals, it just means that the descriptive text
and layout has to be good, unlike for example the TNE Combat rules. If they had
had better text and layout then I may not have cursed so much whilst running 
combat in TNE. 

Please, please do not go back to the old rules.

Eamon Watters.



------------------------------

From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 23:18:57 +0100
Subject: Dissin Nilsen - stop it!

I must say that I've continually been annoyed by people who post
to the list cursing Traveller writers, though most focus their
ire on Dave Nilsen.

I myself liked his writing style, though some of the jokes - Santa
Claus, seemed a bit silly to me. Then again - I don't expect 
perfection in anyone. Effort - yes, perfection - no. 

I personally thought Dave Nilsen put an awful lot of effort into keeping
Traveller going, and due to reasons beyond his control (T$R) GDW broke up -
taking TNE with it. I hope that when T4 gets to the Virus Era Dave is at
the helm, and I hope he keeps contributing to Traveller in it's new 
incarnation.

Now I'd like to see people being a bit more civil on the list - then maybe 
we would get responses from people like Dave and Loren that arn't just
one-line refutations of some hurtful and unhelpful comment.

Eamon Watters. 

------------------------------

From: "David Reed" <nacht@neosoft.com>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 19:28:15 -0500
Subject: Re: FFS and MM's Traveller

- ----------
from the scribblings of <normf@wegener.com>:
> Tommy wrote:
> >I'm disappionted that Imperium Games has decided to use the 
> >CT starships form. I had really hoped that they would keep
[snip]
> I agree with Tommy on this one. I do not think that I will go back
to
> the CT ship design. I will continue to use FFS in its present or
(some
> modified) form. I do not like the too simple combat system of CT. I
> prefer (as do my players) the hex grid combat. 
> 
> Anyone else?

Moi aussi, mein freunds.  I hated the CT hit-point-style wounds that
subtracted from STR, etc. even when it was really the only game worth
playing...  Okay, so it still is...

Pero, pienso que se dice, "C'est la guerre."  I'll buy MMT anyway,
just
because I'd buy frozen pizza if they put the Traveller logo on it... 
;-)

BTW, I am very impressed with the artwork on on the webpage, guys.
Some of its a little fanciful, but very nicely done!  Maybe the cover
art
will make up for any deficiencies in the rules.
- -- 

Dave  <nacht@neosoft.com>

Zen
"If you wish to find the unclouded truth,
do not concern yourself with right and wrong.
Conflicts with right and wrong are a sickness of the mind."


------------------------------

From: uucp@uu2.psi.com
Date: Thu, 30 May 96 23:05:58 -0400
Subject: [none]

Subject: UUCP job killed
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To: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: TRAVELLER digest 674
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 674

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: TRAVELLER digest 673
	by StaintonC@aol.com
  2) Opposed Landings in Traveller
	by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
  3) Re: 2300AD
	by "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
  4) LMGs
	by broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
  5) Re: Logistics
	by John Muir Macpherson <muirmac@uclink.berkeley.edu>
  6) The list
	by 34zbtxq@cmuvm.csv.cmich.edu (Susan M. Shock)
  7) Planetary Assaults
	by David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
  8) Re: Planetary Assaults, and Re: Light Machineguns
	by George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
  9) Various things...
	by "Upton, Django" <DUpton@vtrnntov.telecom.com.au>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 12:07:14 -0400
From: StaintonC@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: TRAVELLER digest 673
Message-ID: <960429120713_283229699@emout13.mail.aol.com>

In a message dated 96-04-29 06:42:18 EDT, you write:

>>> We have just adopted a new LMG, the M-240, but I'm not really aware of
its
>characteristics yet. <<
>
>5.56mm, based on the FN Minimi, either belt fed from drums or uses M16
>magazines
>without modification, adopted as the squad automatic weapon (SAW). Canada
and
>one or two other NATO nations use it as well. The M60 is retained at platoon
>level, I believe.
>
>                            David

Actually, it's the M-249 SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon), built to bridge the
gap between the M-16 Assault Rifle and the M-60 GPMG.  The Fire Team member
in the position of automatic rifleman generally carries it.  The M-60 is
retained at platoon AND squad level, as well, depending on the specific
platoons.

                           Chris, former US Army 82nd Airborne Division

- ------------------------------

Date: Mon, 29 Apr 1996 11:43:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Opposed Landings in Traveller
Message-ID: <199604291643.LAA15791@ConnectI.com>

Just another quick thought.  Invasion onto a planet on which you have a
strong well equiped determined force becomes much easier if you don't care
about the status of the world afterwords.  In other words you can bomb them
into the stone age.  Another possibility that I was considering was the
concept of planet hopping like the U.S. did in the Pacific Theatre in WWII.
Only land on the worlds you HAVE to control.  Blockade the others (wipe out
local Navy, then bomb startports to smithereens, leave a smaller holding
force behind).  Then you will be free to concentrate the majority of your
forces on the critical worlds.  

This works esp well on planets that cannot support themselves without
external aid.  A few well placed ortillery barrages to take out the
Atmosphere Processors etc. can hurry along the surrender.

Lastly I have gotten the impression that Imperial Citizens for the most part
cared very little about who ruled them as it seemed to effect them very
little.  This only changed with the onset of the "Black War".  So
generations had lived under the pretense that warfare was much like the 18th
century limited between military forces only, minimal collateral damage etc.
They were concerned about the outcome of a planetary assault but felt that
they would not feel the effects too much.  The thought never really crossed

------------------------------

From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 22:19:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: New T4 DEsign Rules

Sorry I must have missed the original post, but from what I have recreated,
I have the following comments.

I have designed hundreds of ships, mostly using High Guard, then Book 2,
then MT, then FF&S.  Although I prefer the FF&S design ssytem the most, I
found it to be the most difficult to work with.  The FF&S Lite rules might
be a solution, but I think that a suplement with lots of plug ins would also
do the trick.  Also a number of design examples would do it.

Since we are most likely not going to get that, I have the following
suggestions to make:

1. Totaly redesign the Computer design and use rules.  Looking at the table
you included that listed computer names sizes and capacities, I feel that
even starting down that path will lead to ruination.  I would prefer that
you treat computers as Black Boxes instead of using 1970's ideas about
computers.  Look at what has transpired in 20 years, much less 3000.
Computers are likely to be incomprehensible by Year 0, so let them be or
design something that WORKS!!!

2. You can use a system like Book 2 or High Guard, but try to make it
extensible so that at some point in the future there might be a IG version
of something like FF&S to let us design vehicles, weapons, electronics, etc.

Other than that, although I prefer the TNE style of ships (excluding
thruster plates), I am eagerly awaiting T4 (especially the character
generation system)

DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: "David Reed" <nacht@neosoft.com>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 22:47:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Tact is for weenies...

And the word S-A-N-C-T-I-M-O-N-I-O-U-S echoes throughout the hall...
[Apologies in advance to the "innocent" victims.  This will be the
last.  -ed.]
- ----------
> From: Chepe Lockett <Josephjlockett@io.com>
[snip]
> I'll disregard the miserable subject line and just argue with the
body of
> the text:
[snip]
> CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is healthy.  Impoliteness is not, nor
personal 
> attacks.  J. Michael Straczynski left the UseNet Babylon-5 newsgroup
> because of the personal attacks and vendettas launched there,
depriving
> many fans of his obvious insight and expertise until a moderated
newsgroup
> could be established to exclude the boobs, idiots, and sickos.
[Ain't freedom grand?  -ed.]

UseNet this is not, but somebody must take the place of those invaders
from
alt.syntax.tactical...  BUT, I must disagree...  Mr. Stracwhoosie
DEPRIVED the
group of his "obvious" insight, etc.  He chose.  We all must, and
have, faced
such criticism, in fact this might make and excellent adventure for a
noble 
suddenly in the public eye, or some other media icon new to the biz. 
*adventure
seed*  Personal attacks during public appearances, speeches, hecklers,
all
the fun stuff about the upcoming elections that I so look forward
to...
 
> Like it or not, the former staff members of GDW (Wiseman, Chadwick,
Nilsen)
> have valuable experience and information about Traveller in ALL of
its 
[snipped for irony]
> inconsistences thereof.  Mightn't that be a valuable perspective?

You tell me.  Do they contribute?  Loren used to participate regularly
in this list,
and I myself have had the "pleasure" of being *flamed* by the
all-knowing Wiseman.
It seemed that I 'misinterpreted' Travellers ethnic diversity... 
Perhaps some of
the other long time members remember...  But I digress.
 
> I've met Dave Nilsen at two separate Origins conventions where I was


Can I touch you?  ;-)  I've never touched anyone who's met someone
famous...

> staffing (for SJG, not GDW).  He's a kind, personable human being,
and
> he had good reasons for everything he did and wrote.  You may not
agree

Intended $$$.  *shrug*  So?  They tell me that Christ (whose name you
take in
vain, BTW) was a kind, personable human being, too...  Adolf's close
friends
said he was a nice guy, right up 'till the mustard gas incident
anyway...  But
I digress.

> with all of them (I don't), but that's no reason to attack the man
as 
> well as his work.  Would you act as you do in person?  I have this
image
> of you, Butthead-like, muttering "Huh-huh. It sucks." without
meeting his
> eyes.  That's the maturity level you're advocating.  And it's that 
> attitude which sucks.

Now who's calling names?  Butthead?  And at my age!  *ROFL*  I guess I
should take that as a compliment, but I won't.  I prefer Garfield,
from whom
I stole the subject...  "To believe in another man's words is to do no
more than
to believe in that man."  -John Locke.  Conversely, a man's words are
a 
measure of that man, and to attack those words is to attack that man. 
So what
the heck is the difference?  Can you separate the two?  Should we? 
Can I get
you a valium?
 
[snip]
> Jesus Christ, you half-wit, what reject logic class have you oozed
in from?
> Do you seriously intend that catalogue to justify your attitude?  I
could go
> on and on about the need for conflict in drama, the hopeful elements
present
> in several of those settings, etc., but you're just not worth it.

Conflict is one thing, but nihilism another.  The settings seemed to
be contrived
not for their inherent drama, but the gritty feel which they were
supposed to
portray, cut all of the same cloth...  1889 and 2300 never received
the attention
or print that the rest did, and that does merit note.  When does a
list of a pub-
lishers wares constitute any attempt at logic?  I'm sorry if you
construed it as
more than it was intended, Monsieur DeCarte.

[snip]
> Good God, I'm ashamed to be sharing the same city with you.

And which city is that, praytell?  Or did you not know that real
ISPs have operations in more than one state?  Oops, that was kinda
hateful, huh?  Aw, shucks.  No more Mister Niceguy, I guess, he might
call
me Beavis...

"Fire, huh, huh, fire."  -Beavis
- -- 

Dave  <nacht@neosoft.com>  Public Key Upon Request

Zen
"If you wish to find the unclouded truth,
do not concern yourself with right and wrong.
Conflicts with right and wrong are a sickness of the mind."



------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 20:56:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: New or Old Starship Designs

> Fellow Traveller starship fans;

[text wherein Don Perrin announces his plans to use the old CT design 
 rules for the new IG Traveller snipped -- you've probably already read it]

First of all, let me begin by stating that going back to the CT/MT system 
would be a very bad move.  I've played Traveller since it came in little 
black books, and the FF&S/Brilliant Lances was by far the best starship 
design and combat system the game has ever had.  For one thing, in 
Brilliant Lances, the same rules apply to both small and large ships 
(although a separate rules system, Battle Rider, is available for large 
scale combat between capital ships, but FF&S is still used for ship 
design -- performance aspects are merely simplified to make large scale 
conflicts between large ships easier to resolve).  Also, choices made in 
the design process actually affect how the ship will operate in combat.  
In the old systems, the only things that varied when it came time to 
trade lumps was how fast ships could accelerate and how many weapons they 
carried (MT almost succeeded in rectifying this).  Most importantly, with 
FF&S/Brilliant Lances, the players skills actually have a bearing on the 
outcome of the battle, something that was only partially true with the 
previous rules sets.  If you're going to go 'forward to the past,' then 
don't even bother coming out with design rules -- just come up with a 
bunch of standard ship designs instead.
 
> Computer table:
> Capacity is rated as optimum foreground/background capacity.

[tables snipped]
 
Well, for one thing, why did you move the tech level at which FTL travel 
becomes possible back to 10?  This is a fundamental change to the tech 
structure of the whole Traveller universe, and I feel that you've taken 
it far too lightly.  If you have a rationale for doing this that fully 
takes into account all the implications (such as the delay of the Ziru 
Sirka by several thousand years), I'd love to hear it.  Also, space 
travel is possible at tech levels far earlier than 10.  If we hadn't been 
fighting a world war at the time here on Terra, we might have managed it 
at TL-5 instead of TL-6.  IF Charles Babbage had access to a masterfully 
competent machinist, we might have had computing devices as early as TL-4.

Also, please don't bring back the starship computer software rules -- 
they were inherently broken, and I never, ever used them because of it.  
Computing power should not be a function of ship size under any 
circumstance.  True, larger ships will have more control electronics than 
smaller ones, but make this function of ship size, rather than what kind 
of computer was bought for it.  The same computer that calculates the 
jump vector for a 100 ton ship can also calculate the jump vector for a 
100,000 ton ship.  If simplicity is your goal, than adopt the FF&S method 
of figuring starship control and computing requirements -- they were 
vastly superior to earlier solutions.
 
> If you have any glaring holes in the building systems, or any comments on
> how to easily update it where you think it needs it, please feel free to
> email me. I may not take every suggestion, but I will consider all
> suggestions.

As I've stated before, I view a return to the CT/MT starship rules with 
about as much enthusiasm as I view a return to communism in Russia.  No 
other rules set meshed so well as FF&S/Brilliant Lances did.  Check them 
out and learn from them.  Do NOT adopt an abstract starship combat system 
as the only starship combat system.  I preferred the Brilliant Lances 
hex/vector system to the old CT vector movement system, because it didn't 
require a ruler and protractor, and didn't require the sacrifice of my 
living room ("My ship just went under the couch -- do we move it or 
everything else?").  Having experienced all three previous Traveller 
incarnations, I cannot believe that IG has decided that the CT/MT system 
is the best and most popular.  The recent poll and discussion (6 of 57 
respondents preferred the old CT/MT system) also seems to bear this out.

My suggestion:  Don't get caught up in the 'forward to the past' hype.  
TNE failed because GDW failed, not because it was a bad system.  If they 
hadn't lost their shirts in that Gygax lawsuit, none of this would be an 
issue.  Check out the FF&S system.  It isn't perfect -- there are a few 
things that I would change -- but it bears objective consideration, if 
for no other reason than that many of the same rules for building 
starships also apply to smaller systems, such as vehicles.  Keeping an 
FF&S-type system will save you, and the poor sap who has to come up with 
the vehicle design rules, a lot of work, and providing a common base for 
the design of all systems/vehicles/starships/etc. now will save lots of 
translation headaches in the future.  In the past, if some tank gunner
decided to take a pot-shot at a landing starship, I had no way to figure
out what the effect would be, because I would have to translate between 
at least two different design and combat systems.  Please don't put me 
through that hell again.  Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

You're likely to reply:  Well, BL might have been a damn good space 
combat system, but FF&S is so complex that few people find it 
accessible.

Well, that's a valid comment, and would agree with you.  Here's the fix:  
If the player wants to do the hard work, let them.  If they don't want 
to, make it so that they don't have to.  Having pre-designed starships, 
vehicles, weapons, equipment, etc. is a good start, and I can't recall 
anyone accusing TNE of being delinquent in that regard.  To ease starship 
design tasks, pre-designed sub-systems ('macros,' if you will...) such as 
weapons, missiles, sensors, electronics, and the like, that designers can 
'plug in' to their ships whenever possible, would help.  Also, rewriting 
some of the design rules for the sake of clarity (such as the umpteen 
unit conversions necessary for figuring out the right size HEPlaR drive) 
should be done.
 
> Also, what I would like is your fabulous design and research abilities. I'd
> like a set of statistics, a 100 to 250 word description of the ship, the
> name of the first known example of the ship, and the USPs of the following
> ships:

With the TNE system, I got more pre-designed starships than I could 
stand, and I was damn happy for it.  Even with an FF&S-type design 
system, you're likely to get more designs than you can deal with if you 
give credit where it's due.  If you task a few people to do a lot of 
work, you'll probably need to lay some cash on them, but you probably 
already know that.  Another thing to keep in mind is design variants.  
Many of the merchant ships in TNE (and earlier rules sets) were 
under-gunned, which was no good for someone seeking higher profits doing 
higher-risk runs.  Every standard design should also include some common 
variants (that actually MAKE SENSE).  A word of caution:  Without at 
least a firm 'beta-test' version of the design rules available, you're 
going to end up doing a lot of re-writing, or publishing a lot of 
erratta.  You might want to put off your request for designs until the 
design system's been firmed up.  If all you have so far are those flawed 
tables, you've got a lot of work ahead of you (another good reason to 
adopt FF&S <grin>).

[stuff about ship pre-designs snipped]
 
> Let me see what you can do!

Unless the Army sends me to Bosnia, I'd love to put in time on this 
project over the summer, if it's one that I can believe in.   If you 
decide to adopt an FF&S/BL system, I'd love to help refine it, and put in 
some of the work necessary to make it accessible to those who don't 
relish anal-retentive number crunching.  It is, by far, the best 
evolution of design and combat rules that the game has ever seen, despite 
its faults.  If I didn't think so, my little black books wouldn't be in a 
storage locker right now.
 
> Thanks for your interest and help!

You're welcome, but please take heed:  If this 'Forward to the Past' 
hysteria is the prevalent mindset at Imperium Games, then they're not 
going to get my dollar.  Judging by the 'majority mood' in TML right now, 
you're not likely to get quite a few other people's dollars either, and 
that would be a damn shame.  If the refinements and enhancements in TNE 
are chucked in favor of alphanumeric Universal Profiles, 2d6 statistical 
curves, and abstract combat systems that have little discernable common 
basis with design, equipment, or character generation rules, then I'm not 
going to by your supplement, the new Traveller, or anything else IG puts 
out -- I'll just stick with my TNE.

I respect IG's efforts to maintain continuity and get the Traveller 
machine going again as quickly as possible.  When Marc Miller first 
announced that control of Traveller had reverted to him with the demise 
of GDW, and laid out his vast, ambitious plans for the game's 
resurrection, I was quite pleased.  There are many things that he 
indicated that he'd like to see happen that I'd be more than happy to 
assist with, especially in the realm of computer-driven player aids, as I 
feel that these would go a long way towards making more complex elements 
of the rules system accessible to those unable or unwilling to do the 
number crunching (although a CD-ROM version of the Imperial Encyclopedia, 
or even the AAB, would be a hoot as well).  However, I find the 
gravitation towards the old CT and MT rules systems disturbing.  I urge 
the guiding hands of Traveller, Mark IV not to take the easy out and rush 
a clunky CT/MT-clone to market.  Take the best of what's available (20+ 
years of experience should help you), including the many parts of TNE 
that WEREN'T broken, and work with them.  Don't let the fact that GDW 
went under while handling TNE bias you towards any previous rules system.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #30
*********************************

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Traveller-digest            Friday, 31 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 031

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. None
         2. RE: Apologies...
         3. RE: FFS and MM's Traveller 
         4. FFS vs. CT vs. MT Design sequences...
         5. The What Design System are you using Survey...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 00:16:17 -0400
Subject: None

Stuart

> Subject: Apologies...
>
> Chepe,
>
> You're right...  I was out of line on this...

Apology accepted.

Stu

> Do not take offense at this question, I am seeking
> an answer from someone in the know.
 
 > Maybe I misspoke myself in saying that GDW treated
 > it as the "ugly stepchild", but it would certainly
 > seem that the bulk of the design work and publishing
 > for MT, were done by DGP.  What prevented GDW
 > from better supporting the game system in those years?
 
 If you mean "Why didn't Frank, Marc, and Loren design
 more Traveller products?" there is no simple, words-of-
 one-syllable answer. I can't go into the full details,
 but:
 
 Each of the design staff had one or more game lines to
 oversee (we called the position line manager) Marc was
 line manager for Traveller, Frank for 2300 AD (and
 eventually Space: 1889, Cadillacs & Dinosaurs and others).
 I was line manager for Twilight: 2000/Merc: 2000. In
 addition, we all had growing (some might say festering)
 administrative responsibilities that sucked up increasing
 amounts of time and energy. I cannot speak for the others,
 but I discovered that I could develop three products in the
 the time it took me to design one. I began asigning projects
 to outside designers and overseeing there work from GDW. I can
 only assume that Marc discovered the same thing (3:1), and I
 chose to assign work to DGP because of the overall quality of
 their work. Why didn't I do any MegaTraveller products? I was
 totally absorbed in Twilight: 2000 and (to a lesser extent)
 2300 AD. I was so deeply into these lines that I did not
 have time to keep up with MegaTraveller advances. Any creative
 energies I had in the SF line tended to go into 2300 AD because
 I managed to stay up to speed on that game's system and background.

 I've wasted enough phosphors, but I have one more thing to
 say: No one at GDW hated Traveller. None of us wanted the
 game to fail, and none of us took conscious action to destroy
 the game (some people feel that our decisions, conscious or
 otherwise destroyed the game -- they can believe what they like).

 David Reed
 
 >> Chepe Lockett <Josephjlockett@io.com> scribbled:
 >> mightn't a little more decorum and, say,
 >> simple politeness be in order?
 >
 >Um...  Why?  We're all quasi-adults here, playing games...  ;-)
 
 Ummm...I dunno...perhaps because some of us believe that every
 person (adult, quasi-adult, or otherwise) is worthy of a
 minimum level of respect and courtesy? 
 
 > I think criticism is a healthy thing, be it polite or not.
 
 I don't mind critiism, but I find that a reasoned critique
 without personal attack is more likely to be accepted and
 acted upon than the so-called "in yer face" variety. Maybe
 this is only true of us Mesolithic holdovers from a
 previous epoch, but I don't think so. 

> ** some material deleted **

> I'm sorry, but I see a trend here...  [2300AD was omitted
> due to lack of author's knowledge.  -ed.]

 Was Space: 1889 omitted because of your lack of knowledge, or
 because it doesn't support your hypothesis?

 > BTW, I miss DC.  Who owns the rights to it?
 
 Tantalus...same folks who own Twilight: 2000, Merc: 2000, 2300 AD, and this
very mailing list.

> An evesdropping game store proprietor noted, "Well,
> they missed the boat, really. All the gloom-and-doom
> stuff has been and gone, and now everyone wants
> something a little more upbeat...

Second-guessing is a very popular pastime. GDW lasted for 23 years, which is
longer than most small businesses. If I had it all to do over again, I think
I'd do everything the same, except that I'd probably not spend  good money to
see Aliens 3, and I'd try to eat less junk food.

         Loren Wiseman 


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 22:40:53 -0800
Subject: RE: Apologies...

On 30 May 96 at 4:56, The Druid spewed:

> could you Please Change your tag line?

No.

 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@UDel.Edu>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 02:08:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: FFS and MM's Traveller 

In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 30 May 1996 14: 39:40 CDT
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 02:08:57 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: On Thu, 30 May 1996, Tommy Grav wrote:
: 
: I don't think anyone has ruled out a supplement with complex rules such 
: as those in FFS.  IG has only given us a peak at what the /core/ rules 
: will be.  Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! :)  If IG follows 
: the product development method of the CT era, I think folks such as 
: yourself can look forward to a system much more to your liking being 
: presented as a supplement.

The problem is that I don't see why I should have to wait and purchase
a second book on starships.  Why can't "Starships" be designed with a
basic and an advanced part? 

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 23:16:34 -0800
Subject: FFS vs. CT vs. MT Design sequences...

My Cr .02 worth on the design sequences debate.

I guess I fall somewhere in the middle on this one.  

I don't want to go back to something as simple as Book 2.  As soon 
as I bought Book 5 High Guard, I basically all but forgot about the 
book 2 design rules (and that was 15 years ago).  I thought the 
results were too abstract, and I liked the combat system less than 
the designs.
I really didn't find High Guard to be all that cumbersome a design process.  
They were still relatively easy to design, and the combat system was much 
improved, although it is now dated.  I would suggest that a High Guard system 
(revamped) should be a bare minimum for simplistic design rules.

I don't like FF&S.  I thought the organization of the book made it 
difficult to read, and I really didn't see the point in devoting a 
lot of space to "alternate" technologies that weren't ever going to 
be supported by any other book in the system.  I guess the 
overwhelming complexity cut into my limited time too much to think 
about using it.

I liked MT, at least after taking advantage of the errata.  It was 
complex enough to really make ship design interesting, yet it still 
takes me just a little while to design a vehicle or ship.  I thought 
the complexity was just about my speed.  Frankly, If the new design 
rules don't grab me, I'll probably continue to use MT rules.

I would make the following suggestions at a minimum for whatever 
design rules are used, and whatever form Starships take.

1.  Proofread.  Both FF&S and MT suffered grievously (especially MT) 
from very poorly edited design rules.  I would rather see well 
written and edited design rules that I'm not real crazy about than 
have to white out several pages and insert new tables...

2.  Design lots of ships.  Some of us who run campaigns are pressed for time.  
Although I enjoy designing ships, there are lots of times where it just isn't 
possible.  It'd be nice to have a couple hundred ship designs to pick 
and choose from to incorporate games.  

3.  It sounds like you actually figured this one out, but don't make 
a system as complex as FF&S as your ONLY design system.  While I see 
no problem with designing an FF&S style supplement for the gearheads, 
I sure wouldn't want to be FORCED to design a ship with one.

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 23:23:55 -0800
Subject: The What Design System are you using Survey...

Today is the last day for responses to the Design System Poll.
I will stop accepting entries at 10:30 PM PDT on May 31, 1996.  I 
hope to have results of the poll done by Monday, June 3rd, although 
this may be a reach.  So far there are approximately 50 responses, 
excluding duplicates.

For those of you who may have missed it last week:

The What Design System Are You Using Poll:
1. Are you currently playing Traveller using Traveller: The New Era 
rules, regardless of setting?

2.  Do you own a copy of FF&S (Fire, Fusion & Steel)?

3. Have you ever used FF&S to design a starship, weapon, vehicle or 
other items?

4.  Do you own the Megatraveller Rules?

5. Have you ever designed a starship, vehicle, or small craft with 
the MegaTraveller rules?

6. Do you own a version of the Classic Traveller rules (Traveller 
Book, Little black books, Deluxe Traveller, Starter Traveller)?

7.  Do you have Book 5, High Guard?

8.  Do you have Striker?

9.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 2, Starships?

10.  Have you ever designed ships using Book 5, High Guard?

11. Have you ever designed vehicles or other items using Striker?

12. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
preference for designing starships: (Book 2, Starships, Book 5, High 
Guard, MegaTraveller, FF&S)

13. If you have experience with more than 1 system, please state your 
preference for designing vehicles (Striker, MegaTraveller, FF&S)

Please e-mail responses to me at 
sdollar@goodnet.com

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #31
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 31 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 032

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. re: Re: Tact is for weenies...
         2. Re: FF&S Lite
         3. Re: FFS and MM's Traveller
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #27
         5. Re: Tact is for weenies...
         6. Re: FFS and MM's Traveller
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #27
         8. Re: CT/HG Starship Design
         9. Spacecraft Design
        10. Re: Tact is for weenies...
        11. Traveller Sale/Auction Update
        12. Re: Spacecraft Design
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #27
        14. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #27
        15. Starship Designs.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: PBrenton@state.ma.us
Date: Fri, 31 May 96 9:24:50 -24000
Subject: re: Re: Tact is for weenies...

[flamewar deleted]

(I'll probably be sorry for getting in the middle, but..)

Could you guys please take this outside-er, I mean to email?  Much as it 
amuses me to read point-counterpoint, I personally feel that you have strayed 
far enough afield to justify a polite request for a change of venue.

As someone already said, this ain't the USENET.

Pete


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:19:00 -0600
Subject: Re: FF&S Lite

At 05:46 pm 5/30/96 +0200, Tommy Grav wrote:
>normf@wegener.com wrote:
>> 
>> I would like to see FFS lite as well!!!
>> 
>> --norm fenlason
>> Kennesaw GA USA
>
>The FFS Light is available at
>   http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html
>
>This is the site of David J. Golden.

        Thanks for the plug, but what I've got there isn't really a working
design sequence, as I haven't had time to fill out the charts. It's more of
an outline of how FF&S Light could work. Comments are welcome, and if
there's enough interest we could develop it further for those who aren't
interested in Paleolithic Starships, and intend to stay with FF&S/TNE.
Assuming Marc Miller doesn't consider that an infringement of his copyright.
And, of course, if they actually listen to their customers and go with
something along those lines, we can develop it for them and hand it over.
I'm not greedy ... a single line of credit would be more than I'd expect... 

        (Listening, Imperium Games?)
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:19:11 -0600
Subject: Re: FFS and MM's Traveller

At 02:29 pm 5/30/96 -0400, Tom Ellis (tellis@telerama.lm.com) wrote:
>The nice thing about a simple, CT style system is it is easily adapted and
>added to should referees and players desire more detail.

        CT *Style*, not CT. That's the whole idea behind Fire, Fusion and
Steel Light. Take detailed rules, create a set of plug-n-play systems a la
CT/HG, and make that the basic design sequence. Those who want more detail
can use the full-up system to design ships FULLY COMPATIBLE with the basic
ships. Which a CT/HG clone won't do, even within itself.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:18:48 -0600
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #27

At 11:13 am 5/30/96 PDT, normf@wegener.com wrote:
>Ross Coburn writes: [snipped]
>>
>>One thing you might wish to consider is that, by and large, the
>>denizens of mail lists such as these tend to be the hardcore fans, not
>>the casual gamers that Traveller must attract if it is to grow at all.
>> The vast majority of players want something they don't need a degree
>>in physics to use, and that provides them with a design solution that
>>is, above all, ELEGANT.  High Guard was fairly straightforward and
>
>My impression was that FFS was a response to the *demand* for more real
>science in Traveller. The *real* science that was started in 2300 was
>importred into TNE/FFS. Let's face it, an RPG without *hard* science
>may as well be fantasy. 

        AMEN! That's why I went with Traveller instead of Gamma World or
Star Frontiers or (I don't even remember what other games were out in 1981)
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:19:26 -0600
Subject: Re: Tact is for weenies...

Just to get off my Ship Design hobby horse for a few moments ...

At 12:53 pm 5/30/96 -0500, Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com> wrote:
>I'll disregard the miserable subject line and just argue with the body of
>the text:

Amen! I'm saving your message as an example of how to deal with nitwits who
feel common courtesy is for weenies. Thanks for putting him in his place (I
hope).
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:19:51 -0600
Subject: Re: FFS and MM's Traveller

At 02:39 pm 5/30/96 -0500, Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> wrote:
>On Thu, 30 May 1996, Tommy Grav wrote:
>
>> I guess its a money thing, but I had hoped that IG had kept 
>> FFS, or at least made a book like it. I like FFS because I
>
>I don't think anyone has ruled out a supplement with complex rules such 
>as those in FFS.  IG has only given us a peak at what the /core/ rules 
>will be.  Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater! :)  If IG follows 
>the product development method of the CT era, I think folks such as 
>yourself can look forward to a system much more to your liking being 
>presented as a supplement.

        Why start with something that's (in my humble opinion), substandard
by today's lights AND by what most customers want, and then try to build on
it? If your foundation is weak, the house will be weak. Start with an
improved FF&S and publish the Light version as the basic design sequence.

        AND! Imperium Games will have a stack of starships ALREADY DESIGNED!
That's what they're asking for, right? Spend an hour browsing the web sites
and you'll have scores of ships. A quick e-mail to the author and you'll
have permission to publish.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:18:25 -0600
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #27

At 08:52 am 5/30/96 -0500, "Ross Coburn" <ross@odyssee.net> wrote:
>One thing you might wish to consider is that, by and large, the
>denizens of mail lists such as these tend to be the hardcore fans, not
>the casual gamers that Traveller must attract if it is to grow at all.
> The vast majority of players want something they don't need a degree
>in physics to use, and that provides them with a design solution that
>is, above all, ELEGANT.  High Guard was fairly straightforward and
>internally consistent, even if it did leave a lot of excruciating
>detail out.  MT was a mess, and I cannot comment on T:NG (sorry) as i

        I agree, and so does most of the list. The whole idea behind FF&S
Lite was to have a Book 2/High Guard STYLE of design, while still
maintaining compatibility with a full up design system.

>If a significant core market of old time players demand a more
>complicated design sequence, what is to stop IG from producing it
>later, once the game is up and running?  The original Traveller was
>nothing if not modular...

        Then we get the same old problem as ever -- designs produced with
the detailed version will be completely different from the designs produced
with the basic version. I HATE that as much as I hate having predesigned
spacecraft in the game that don't bother to follow the game's rules.

        And mixing Book 2 and High Guard makes the inconsistency worse. Try
designing a ship using each method and compare them. Having different rules
for starships and nonstarships is asinine. A nonstarship should look and
perform just like a starship with the jump drive taken out.

        As for the time to develop a new detailed system -- DON'T! We've
already got FF&S, there's a very active core of people on the Beta list who
WANT to fix it and would do so for free. The new system should be an
improved version of FF&S, with a modular, HG style Light design system
derived from it. Developing the Light system from the detailed should be a
matter of days ... I sat down and came up with an outline on my Web page in
an afternoon, and surely professionals could do better.

        Incidentally, the MAIN reason I've always been interested in
Traveller was the Hardcore "Hard Science Fiction" feel. If it's just going
to turn into Yet Another Science Fantasy Space Opera game, there are plenty
of those out there for me to turn to.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:20:00 -0600
Subject: Re: CT/HG Starship Design

At 03:13 pm 5/30/96 -24000, PBrenton@state.ma.us wrote:
>Ok, we've got two problems (at least) going here;
>
>1). Folks are dissatisfied with the using the CT Books 2 and 5 model of 
>starship construction for T4.  Primarily due to its simplicity and lack of 
>flexibility. 
>
>2). There is a desire (by IG and many others) for compatibility with that 
>system and its standards.
>
>The solution to these two problems does not seem (at first look) mutually 
>incompatible.  Is it possible to come up with a starship design model that 
>both is complex enough (or has enough levels of complexity) to satisfy the 
>gear-heads(tm) and still fit within the CT/HG starship combat system?
>
>Haven't you folks been thinking about this?  I've heard (uh, I mean read) the 

        The GDW-Beta list and the Traveller list came up with this idea some
time ago: it's what everybody is referring to as FF&S Light. A CT/HG *like*
design model that avoids the clunkiness/inconsistency of CT/HG, but is still
as simple. And Merrick Burkhardt (among others) on the GDW Beta list has
done some work on a HG-like combat system for FF&S ships.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:52:07 -0600
Subject: Spacecraft Design

        As a previous survey and an ongoing survey have shown, and the
recent response to your stated intention to go back to CT/HG design rules
for spacecraft, most people (your customers, that is) are opposed to that
idea and prefer something more. The most popular design system by far seems
to be FF&S. Complaints against FF&S include its poor layout and the
excessive complexity for those who simply want to bash out a design quickly.
However, a solution, in the form of "FF&S Light" has been proposed, which
would have the simplicity of CT/HG-like design, provide a little more
detail, and still being compatible with a detailed design. 

        Furthermore, a design system based on FF&S would answer Don Perrin's
original request very quickly -- he was looking for predesigned starships. A
few hours on the Web would yield scores of designs, of a wide variety of
ships. E-mail the author to get permission and the original worksheet, and
you'd be set. My site alone has 23 different TNE designs, of all types,
military, scout, diplomatic and commercial, ranging from a 200Td Yacht to a
2,000,000Td MegaMerchant. Current designers would already have a "draft"
version of the new rules, and could begin churning out more designs. These
designs would then only need slight tweaking to the final version.

(***** BEGGING MODE ON *****)

        PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE
        Reconsider using CT/HG design rules. You could do a much better job
by adapting FF&S, and creating a Light version. I realize you've committed
yourselves to putting out an MMT product, regardless, by GenCon, but I
believe this part could be done in a matter of weeks. Especially given the
level of free help that is available.

        I volunteer as much time as I have available to help, outside of
grad school and my real job (keeping the Milstar comsat working). In fact, I
have three years' worth of accumulated leave, if needed. I'm not asking for
anything in return ... not money, not credit, not free products, not thanks,
nothing. I just want the new Traveller to be something I'm willing to spend
money on. And something with spacecraft based on 20+year old rules is not it.

        And I think you'll find others are willing to put in sweat to get
the best design system that is (1) simple for the beginner/non-gearhead, (2)
provides a decent level of detail at the basic level, (3) is extensible and
satisfies gearheads, and (4) isn't as "retro" as CT/HG.

        Thisbasic  design system could still be no larger than one of the
original black books, and would be as easy to use, but would be head and
shoulders above CT/HG. You would also already have one supplement, the
detailed design system, written and ready to publish.

(***** Begging Mode Off *****)

        Please, don't misunderstand me. I'm not trying to attack anybody
personally, or gore anybody's ox. The feeling of "pseudo-realism" in
Traveller is what first attracted me, and is why I have followed each
improvement. If I wanted "soft SF" Space Opera, there are plenty of other
games I could have chosen, and still could. Since I don't, I'll give up
entirely and stick with what I've already got.

        I realize you have your own vision of where Traveller should go. It
is Marc Miller's Traveller, literally, and he can mold it to his own vision.
But it's not a religion, it's a business. If that vision doesn't match up
with what others want, they're customers not believers, and they won't
follow. And that's what scares me. If this flops, there won't be an
opportunity to turn around and try again. Traveller will be dead except in
the hearts of those who've "kept the flame."

        Just to harp on the same subject one more time: I agree a simpler
design sequence is needed to help draw new players. I disagree that that
sequence is CT/HG. The new sequence should allow *seamless* extension for
old hands, and for new players who want more detail. A revision of FF&S, to
include more predesigned components and simplified integration rules is the
way to go.

        Thank you for your time in reading this. I welcome responses, either
public on the Traveller mailing list, or private to me. I really would like
to hear from you, even if it's just "Bugger off, who cares if you buy MMT?
We know what we want."
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:02:44 -0800
Subject: Re: Tact is for weenies...

On 31 May 96 at 9:19, David J. Golden spewed:

> Amen! I'm saving your message as an example of how to deal with nitwits who
> feel common courtesy is for weenies. Thanks for putting him in his place (I
> hope).

The more I think about it, the more I realize that there is no room 
for bashing people or GDW on this list.  Constructive, thoughtful 
criticism of ideas is good...  Bashing...such as what I engaged in a 
couple of days ago...not so good.

This sort of stuff should definitely go outside. 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 12:47:03 -0400
Subject: Traveller Sale/Auction Update

Greetings All:

A brief update on the Traveller Sale & Auction I'm running...

For the first two weeks of this run, I'm taking bids. If you bid for an item
and nobody else bids on that item, then it will be a straight sale to you at
the end of the two weeks.

If there are multiple bids on an item, then we will go into auction mode for
the next two weeks.

If there is anything unsold after these first four weeks, then I'll probably
have a "fire sale" with gut-wrenching low prices. Gut-wrenching, that is, for
you--if you want something real bad, but think I'm asking too much, your gut
will be wrenching while you wait four weeks (snicker).

I'm not trying to make a profit here--merely trying to sell off duplicates
and get them into the hands of folks who can use them.

I currently have a number of individual bids on items, plus a block bid of
$300 cash or $400 in trade for the whole thing.

I received one piece of mail that (I hope jokingly) called me a racist for
disallowing non-US/Canadian customers from participating. Obviously this
person does not know me personally, as they would find that I am one of the
more mild and inoffensive persons around. So, as I said, I hope this was a
joke. Certainly, though, the accusation make my blood boil.

The reason for the exclusion on non-US/Canadian customes is simple: Several
years ago I sold off a number of items from my collection (mostly duplicates)
as I pared back. The ratio of money recieved to pain received was not good. I
had problems with shipping stuff overseas. I had problems with foreign
exchange rates. I had problems with people sending me checks with foreign
funds. I had problems with customs. I had problems with the Post Office (and
with foreign post offices). I had irate letters from people who could not
understand why their first class/airmail letter reached me faster than the
package I sent them--when they had paid for "ground" postage. Do you know
what "ground" postage to Europe gets you? A berth on the bananna boat, and
that ain't a fast way of travelling.

So excuse me if I exclude non-US/Canadian customers. I'm trying to get this
stuff out with a minimum of hassle. I'm not trying to hassle or exclude
folks--just trying to help you out and spread the wealth of information that
is currently locked in my basement.

Fred Kiesche
(Knight of the Third Imperium--and I've got the paperwork to prove it!)
(FKiesche3@aol.com)



------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 12:47:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Spacecraft Design

Greetings All:

I'm following up on David Golden's suggestions. There's a lot of good in what
he says, but let's try and take it one step further.

How about we use a multi-part approach.

For the first release (the August rules set) and the Starships book (which is
just finished ship designs, if I understand correctly), the rules are FF&S
"ultra-lite" and the ships in the Starships book are designed with full FF&S
rules.

As long as the ultra-lite or lite rules and the full rules are compatible,
i.e., you can move from one to the other with a minimum of trouble, this
would seem to be the best of all possible worlds.

This would satisfy folks like me who want a quick-and-dirty rules set (which
"Classic Traveller" did have) and those who want to design ships down to the
last rivet (just kidding). A future Imperium Games release could then be FF&S
Mark II, the full-blown hard-core book for those who like that kind of thing.

Of course, I'd buy both. But then I'm certifiable when it comes to collecting
game stuff!

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)



------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 31 May 96 18:02 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #27

In-Reply-To: <199605300502.BAA28232@NS.MPGN.COM>

In message , owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM said:
  > From: dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 17:52:40 -0600
  > Subject: New or Old Starship Designs
  >  
  > I am creating the first of the expansions for the new Marc Miller's
  > Traveller series, appropriately named Starships. I am interested in any
  > aid that you can give me. I am using the starship building rules from the
  > original Classic Traveller book for small ships, and the High Guard

NONONONONONONO. No. 

You haven't been listening, have you?

NOBODY WANTS THIS.

20 years ago, it was okay. 10 years ago, it was out of date, which is why
MT replaced it. Today, it's a joke.

People want FF&S.

  > Size (in tons) of Computers by Tech Level

Extend the table left down to TL8 and right up to TLG. 
Lose the bis models.
They all look a bit big IMHO.

  > Also, what I would like is your fabulous design and research abilities.
  > I'd like a set of statistics, a 100 to 250 word description of the ship,
  > the name of the first known example of the ship, and the USPs of the
  > following ships:

You're asking us to design ships using rules that haven't been written yet,
based simply on a vaguely descriptive name (how big is a Destroyer?). Tell
us what you want, and we'll design it for you (using FF&S, obviously).

Sorry if this sounds hostile; it's nothing personal. I just think - no,
believe - that this is a *BIG* mistake. I've been running/playing Traveller
for more than half my life, and I've spent a hiddeous amount of time and
money on it, and I don't like the idea of someone coming along and screwing
it up.

I'd rather have *NO* ship design system in the main rules (with FF&S Mk2
coming along later) than go back to High Guard (or worse, Starships).

Listen to us; we're the people who are going to buy the ****ing thing.

  > From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch) Date: Wed, 29 May 96 23:14:51
  > -0600 Subject: Re: New or Old Starship Designs
  > # 
  > in some prices.  Can we take it that book 2 and 5 are pretty close to
  > what we'll end up with in T4?

God, I hope not.


                      --------=====OOO=====--------
Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."

------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:40:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #27

> In-Reply-To: <199605300502.BAA28232@NS.MPGN.COM>
>> From: dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin) Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 17:52:40 -0600
>> Subject: New or Old Starship Designs
>>  
>> I am creating the first of the expansions for the new Marc Miller's
>> Traveller series, appropriately named Starships. I am interested in any
>> aid that you can give me. I am using the starship building rules from the
>> original Classic Traveller book for small ships, and the High Guard
> 
> NONONONONONONO. No. 
> 
> You haven't been listening, have you?
> 
> NOBODY WANTS THIS.
> 
> 20 years ago, it was okay. 10 years ago, it was out of date, which is why
> MT replaced it. Today, it's a joke.
> 
> People want FF&S.

Not everyone wants FF&S.  I want it to go back to the way it was.  Yes provide
more detail, but don't force the people that play and ref the game to spend
hours on something that should take minutes.  I could build a specialized 
starship for a session in a few minutes, and spend the rest of the time on
the scenerio.  I don't want ships defined to the nth level of detail.  Frankly
it just doesnt matter.  You need J distance, M-speed, fire power and defense.
(Ok sensors are a good idea, and the computer needs to have less of a role)
You need state rooms, and cargo holds, but not much more.  The number of MegaJoules
produced by the power plant is completley irrelevent in role-playing.  Yes its
fun for the gear heads.  

I did not like High Guard's USP.  There were too many codes to remember their
positional locations and what they ment.  But at least you could use high guard.
Now with the ship designs in FF&S and TNE, you cant easily take ship A put it
in a fire fight with ship B, and in less than 5 minutes solve the combat.  In 
my TNE campaign, I almost refused to do ship-to-ship because it was too complex.

Why is AD&D so successful with the most unrealistic combat system?  Because it's
simple.  Roll to hit, roll to damage, next contestant.  This should be the guiding
rule-- Keep it Simple!  Traveller is a Role-Playing Game, not a lesson in mechanical
engineering.  

Besides this FF&S vs. CT debate has been hashed out before.  There are two camps
and both camps have valid points.  Don came on here specifing his criteria and asked
for help.  He didn't want to be blasted with opinions on which system is best.  
 
>> Also, what I would like is your fabulous design and research abilities.
>> I'd like a set of statistics, a 100 to 250 word description of the ship,
>> the name of the first known example of the ship, and the USPs of the
>> following ships:
 
> You're asking us to design ships using rules that haven't been written yet,
> based simply on a vaguely descriptive name (how big is a Destroyer?). Tell
> us what you want, and we'll design it for you (using FF&S, obviously).

Yes they have, Starship's Book 2.  The Traveller Book, Book 5 High Guard.
An FF&S ship uses 250 words just to get through the systems on board, with
no room left for a description.

Rob
- -- 
Rob Miracle
rwm@mpgn.com

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:17:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Starship Designs.

Hi all. 

Okay, time for the arts student to speak up (life's like a box of
chocolates...:-)!  I don't know where the rest of you get the time to spend
4 hours designing a starship for an RPG, but I have a life to worry about. 
FF&S is completely impractical for me and (I suspect) the vast majority of
the population out there.  I really like the HG design system, I can get
a ship up and running in 15 minutes.  That leaves me 3.75 hours to
actually RPG (or maybe like, y'know, work or socialize or something!). If 
I need a ship in the middle of a session, I can send the players on a 
munchie run and by the time they get back, it's ready.

Sorry, this is sounding a little beligerent.  Too much caffeine I guess.  
But my point is that for me personally a return to HG is wonderful.  I 
could stand a _little_ more detail, but nothing like FF&S.  Detail (IMHO) is
pointless for role-playing purposes.  If what you get off on is designing
stuff, then do that, but I don't think it is integral to most people's 
concepts of roleplaying.  Certainly not the hordes of gamers who buy (and 
actually play!) such games as GURPS and the Storyteller series.

Having said that, I could live with an FF&S light product, but I think 
I'm talking "fat-free" where others are thinking "calorie reduced".

<rant mode off>

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #32
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 31 May 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 033

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. The Way it Was
         2. Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)
         3. Re: The Way it Was
         4. Re: Spacecraft Design
         5. Re: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)
         6. Re: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)
         7. Re: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)
         8. DGP's Operations...was re: Alien Modules
         9. FF&S Lite - I need it now!
        10. Re: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)
        11. FF&S Lite
        12. Re: Simple Ship Design Processes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 12:50:03 -0600
Subject: The Way it Was

At 01:40 pm 5/31/96 -0400, Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM> wrote:
>Not everyone wants FF&S.  I want it to go back to the way it was.  Yes provide
>more detail, but don't force the people that play and ref the game to spend
>hours on something that should take minutes.  I could build a specialized 
>starship for a session in a few minutes, and spend the rest of the time on
>the scenerio.  I don't want ships defined to the nth level of detail.  Frankly

        That's exactly why we want a light version of FF&S. Nobody is saying
the only design sequence should be the ultra-detailed FF&S. But we want all
the systems to be consistent. If I "bash" a ship together using the basic
system, I want to be able to tweak it later. If somebody designs a ship
using one system, it shouldn't be significantly different than one designed
using the other, except in level of detail.

        I agree it should "go back the way it was" in that you should have
an easy way of banging out a one-use ship for a scenario in minutes. I
disagree that CT/HG is the way to go. When the detailed system comes out,
it's going to have to live with whatever limitations are in the basic.

        And the idea of using CT for some ships and HG for others is, in my
opinion, a perfect example of an inconsistency. If you design a starship
with a jdrive, and a non-starship with an equivalent amount of lead ballast,
they should be otherwise identical.

>Besides this FF&S vs. CT debate has been hashed out before.  There are two
camps
>and both camps have valid points.  Don came on here specifing his criteria
and asked
>for help.  He didn't want to be blasted with opinions on which system is
best.  

        He's a businessman. He's selling (or hoping to sell) a product. I'm
a (potential) customer. I am telling him what I'd like to see in the product
... what is needed to get my business. If he decides that he doesn't want my
business, that's his choice. But I'm free to give him my desires. AND I'm
suggesting a way he can satisfy both camps. You get your "the way it was"
system, I (and quite a few other people) get my detailed expansion.

>> You're asking us to design ships using rules that haven't been written yet,
>> based simply on a vaguely descriptive name (how big is a Destroyer?). Tell
>> us what you want, and we'll design it for you (using FF&S, obviously).
>
>Yes they have, Starship's Book 2.  The Traveller Book, Book 5 High Guard.

        With unknown modifications.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:58:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)

Okay, while we're taking a new look (or an old look made new, or whatever)
at Traveller starship construction, I'll draw some fire by talking about
the perennial problem of crew sizes.  Some heretical changes in Traveller
"canon" are going to come out of this, but I think the discussion might
prove interesting.

I'd like to advocate the larger model of crew sizes used by TNE rather 
than the smaller model pursued first by CT and then by MT, but perhaps
with a stronger variation as tech level increases.  I'll support my 
position with some math below: for now let me address the role-playing
possibilities.

David Nilsen (whom I do _not_ regard as Truth Incarnate, but who strikes 
me as a smart, thoughtful fellow with some good ideas) defended the
larger crew sizes at one or another Origins talk by describing the
potential for NPC's (whether as social acquaintances, redshirts for
the bloody-minded beasties, etc.), technical difficulties to be solved 
by skill rolls and exciting role-play when the vessel's crew size
drops significantly (due to, say, starship combat, which also paid more
attention (laudably) to the individual in TNE), and a sense of greater
"realism".  One of the things that always disappointed me about TNE/FF&S
was the assumption that crew sizes had always been thus, even in the 
pre-Virus, heavily-computerized Third Imperium.  I wanted to hear about
cargo bays aboard relic starships partly transformed into extra state-
rooms to allow the RC's (or Free Traders') TL12 human-controlled systems
to handle starships designed for the TL15 Imperials.  But somehow that
bit of chrome didn't make it in, except in a few GDW-beta discussions
on the topic.

More widely-varying crew sizes would also exacerbate TL differences
during interstellar wars, which would help explain Vargr futility in
attacking all but weakly-defended systems during the Frontier Wars,
the rapid Terran victory in the original Interstellar Wars after
leap-frogging the Vilani, and so on.

I'll take a fairly hard-line approach below, and my assumptions are of 
course open to argument.  For the sake of simplicity, I'm going to assume
fairly steady rates of variation in the "assist" provided to crew by command-
and-control systems.  Linear rather than geometric progressions would change
the results a lot.

Now for some math:  I'm using the "All Hands: Magazine of the U.S. Navy"
"Owner's and Operator's Manual" from January 1996.  A Los Angeles class
attack submarine (probably our closest analogy to a Traveller starship),
has a displacement (submerged) of 6,927 tons and a crew complement of
145 (p. 39).  Now, those are tons of water.  I figure an English ton is
around 908kg (though I'm figuring this in spare time at work and might be 
off a smidgen here or there: I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong!
:-).  So a displacement ton is around .9 m^3 (1 m^3 of water weiging 
1000kg).  So a displacement ton is around .9/14 or .0643 Traveller
tons (14 m^3 of LHyd weighing 1000kg).  And the Los Angeles submarine is
thus about 6,927 x 0.0643 = 445 tons, which seems about right.  (It's
a system defense boat!)

Now, with 145 crew for 445 tons, that's about 0.326 crew per ton.  CT's 
TL12 400-ton SDB, from CT Supplement 7 "Traders and Gunboats", has a crew 
of 10.  That's 0.025 per ton.  So the TL12 SDB requires 7.7% as much crew 
as the TL7 sub, on a ton-for-ton basis.  That's like achieving a 30% 
reduction in crew size at each tech level (12-7 = 5, (.077)^.2 = .60),
which I find only barely on the verge of believable.  At that rate, a
TL15 SDB would require only 1.7% as much crew as the sub (.60^8 = 0.05),
or about 0.006 crew per ton (that's two people for the entire SDB).

MT kept the crew size for the SDB about the same, at 12 (p. 85 Imperial
Encyclopedia, though I don't have the errata handy with me, alas).  TNE
yanked the crew requirement for the SDB to 24 (p. 373 main rule book),
which, at a ratio of 0.06 (18% the sub), gives a decline rate of about 
29%.  Hmmm.

Let's assume that a true "singleship" (e.g. an IISS Scout/Courier, which 
we're told can be run by one person in a pinch (which would be 0.1 persons
per ton)) only becomes possible at TL15.  This yields a decline rate of
24%, which somehow I feel happier about.  The SDB, at TL12, would thus
have a crew size (roughly) of [(.86)^5]*.326*400 = 61.

Now hold on there with the tar and feathers!  I don't have any problem 
with that crew size for a vessel that's got to be able to maintain itself 
while hiding out in gas giants while armed with heavy ordnance (nuclear
missiles, sensitive lasers, or what-have-you).  And that's still less 
than a third of what a modern nuclear submarine has to work with, under
much less challenging conditions.  The higher crew size, in fact,
INCREASES my sense of wonder rather than lessening it, thinking about
all those guys scrambling around the ship while prowling on patrol.

A non-military vessel like, say, the standard far trader (200 tons), 
might be able to get away with, say, a third of the ratio of a military
ship (fewer complex and highly-ruggedized systems, no necessity for 
redundancy in case of casualties, etc.).  So our Empress Marava, at 
TL12, might need only [(.86)^5]*.109*200 = 10 crew.  And by TL 15, in 
the height of the Third Imperium, far traders would be down to 
[(.86^8)]*.109*200 = 6 or 7 crew, around the size of the stereotypical
gaming group.

Traveller's huge capital starships would now become truly impressive war 
machines on the _human_ scale as well as the purely physical one.  We'd
have a good explanation for the failure of many TL9 or TL10 cultures,
during the Long Night, say, to form self-sufficient interstellar trading
communities (a crew of (.86^3)*.109*200 = 14 on a far trader crimps
the economics a bit more, except, perhaps, to visionaries like Cleon
Zhunastu, who see what wider trade and technical dissemination will do
for his people).

Comments?  Suggestions?  I think I've managed to keep things _reasonably_
close to the CT scale, except for military vessels (which I always found
too small) and low-tech ships (which adds to the allure of "trading up"
to higher-tech equipment).  Heck, I might throw these into a home-grown
campaign even if IG doesn't in the formal rules-set.  And I don't even
belong to GDW-beta... maybe I should join all the other heretics over
there....  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:13:33 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The Way it Was

David J. Golden said:
> At 01:40 pm 5/31/96 -0400, Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM> wrote:
> >Not everyone wants FF&S. I want it to go back to the way it was. Yes provide
> >more detail, but don't force the people that play and ref the game to spend
> >hours on something that should take minutes.  I could build a specialized 
> >starship for a session in a few minutes, and spend the rest of the time on
> >the scenerio.  I don't want ships defined to the nth level of detail.
> 
>         That's exactly why we want a light version of FF&S. Nobody is saying
> the only design sequence should be the ultra-detailed FF&S. But we want all
> the systems to be consistent. If I "bash" a ship together using the basic
> system, I want to be able to tweak it later. If somebody designs a ship
> using one system, it shouldn't be significantly different than one designed
> using the other, except in level of detail.

Dave,

Why don't you submit your material to Imperium Games and see if they'd
like to use it? Like - mail them a paper copy and send a paper copy to
Don Perrin & Marc Miller?

The only thing I've heard is that it _has_ to be 100% compatible with
CT systems. As long as it fits - send it, and maybe they'll like it.

In the meantime, they're never going to do anything based on the near-flame
experiences happening here.

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:07:24 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Spacecraft Design

I have to agree with Dave Golden on building in underlying complexity _from_
_the_beginning, not as only mostly-compatible add-ons at a later date.  I,
too, agree that a simple plug-and-chug Book-2-type system should be what
appears in the basic rules set -- but I want the advanced system to already
be in place as a target for the add-on products to present!

Book 2 was great fun for starship construction when I was in junior high.
I believe West End Games has a very similar product for their Shatterzone
sf-rpg system.  Book 5 produced both more detail and more abstraction,
ironically enough.  But MT and FF&S, despite some of their other flaws,
are what got many people excited about Traveller.  The game system should
be able to grow with the players, whether they be junior-high or post-
graduate students, of any level of mathematical or tinkering ability.
I think Dave (and I) are merely trying to forestall any "growing pains"
by ensuring that a highly-detailed system, or at least the rudiments
of one, is in place _before_ the simpler system is created at all.

I'll continue to use FF&S, I suspect, regardless of what appears from IG.
I'd like to make a combination easier (or even unnecessary, by surpassing
the former product!).  As many have said, SF games, and Traveller in
particular, are in large part about PEOPLE, not parts, about exploration,
not inventory... but we all also know that too much handwaving, as in
ST:TNG, leads rapidly to technobabble and difficulty in satisfactorily
sustaining that same story.

Please allow the same attention to starships that you do to characters:
I'd like to see old "rust-bucket" free traders be able to be as well-
loved, -altered, and -detailed members of the group as their gunners,
stewards, and captains.

Thanks for your consideration.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 22:35:35 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: Re: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)

  A quick note written via a link that loses one character in 200...

  [Los Angeles SSN]
> Now, with 145 crew for 445 tons, that's about 0.326 crew per ton.  CT's 
> TL12 400-ton SDB, from CT Supplement 7 "Traders and Gunboats", has a crew 
> of 10.  That's 0.025 per ton.  So the TL12 SDB requires 7.7% as much crew 
> as the TL7 sub, on a ton-for-ton basis.  That's like achieving a 30% 
> reduction in crew size at each tech level (12-7 = 5, (.077)^.2 = .60),
> which I find only barely on the verge of believable.  At that rate, a
> TL15 SDB would require only 1.7% as much crew as the sub (.60^8 = 0.05),
> or about 0.006 crew per ton (that's two people for the entire SDB).

  US Subs are actually not as automated as they could be. The newest
Swedish sub (Gotland, around 1500 tons submerged) has a wartime crew of 
around 17. For example there is only one man at the helm, not four+one
officer to oversee them.

>   Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

- -bertil-
- -- 
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left as an
 exercise for your kill-file."

------------------------------

From: BTRC@aol.com
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 16:44:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)

I have to disagree on the crew size notes of the previous message. One reason
for the crew of the sub being so large is that they built-in the human
element as a way to avoid the "accidental launch" problem. Does a ballistic
missile sub really *need* more than someone to man the sensors and someone to
steer or do other misc. chores (say 3 men per shift)? Everything else could
be automated. Do you have to have the captain relay orders to the first
officer, who relays it to someone else, who actually does the work?

Counterpoint - What should be the minimum crew size of a Boeing 747, based on
its displacement?

Greg Porter

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:59:51 -0600
Subject: Re: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)

At 10:35 pm 5/31/96 +0200, Bertil Jonell <d9bertil@qrc.com> wrote:
>  A quick note written via a link that loses one character in 200...
>
>  [Los Angeles SSN]
>> Now, with 145 crew for 445 tons, that's about 0.326 crew per ton.  CT's 
>> TL12 400-ton SDB, from CT Supplement 7 "Traders and Gunboats", has a crew 
>> of 10.  That's 0.025 per ton.  So the TL12 SDB requires 7.7% as much crew 
>> as the TL7 sub, on a ton-for-ton basis.  That's like achieving a 30% 
>> reduction in crew size at each tech level (12-7 = 5, (.077)^.2 = .60),
>> which I find only barely on the verge of believable.  At that rate, a
>> TL15 SDB would require only 1.7% as much crew as the sub (.60^8 = 0.05),
>> or about 0.006 crew per ton (that's two people for the entire SDB).
>
>  US Subs are actually not as automated as they could be. The newest

        And there's actually some logic behind that. Automation is great,
until it gets damaged. And military ships (space or sea) are more likely to
be damaged than merchants. So you have to carry enough people to handle
things when the new-fangled autogizmos go out. But those people will get
bored, stale and lose their skills if all they do is sit around watching
"George" run things. So you dispense with some of the automation in the
first place to keep them busy. That, and you're carrying them anyway. Might
as well use them.

        However (and I just put some of this stuff on my FF&S Light page), I
do think Traveller needs more variety in crew setup. I don't see any reason
why, if oil tankers can be crewed by a dozen, large ships in Traveller
can't. There's no reason a TL-12 50,000Td bulk carrier should need more than
8 or 10 crew. Stuff really doesn't break that often, and computers do a fine
job of running things. On the other hand, a 5,000Td destroyer should
probably have quite a few more. They need gunners, they need damage control,
they need to make up for the possible loss of automation, and they need to
have more crewmembers on shift. The bulk carrier just needs one person on
the bridge to watch sensors, monitor engines and comm, etc. The destroyer
should have people on duty in engineering, separate comm and sensor
operators, backups, etc.

        Then you add cultures such as post-Virus Reformation Coalition, who
have an innate aversion to automation, and even their merchants will be
closer in manning to a military vessel.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 14:25:40 MST7
Subject: DGP's Operations...was re: Alien Modules

Given the interest in this stuff for both branches of the list, I'm 
cross posting this.

A bit of background...

The other night, on X-boat, tc@library.solent.ac.uk asked if anyone 
was going to publish the rumored 'unfinished DGP Aliens Modules.  
That tickled my memory; back when GDW was going down and no one here 
knew what was going on, I'd thought that Rger Sanger had mentioned 
something about the rights to DGP stuff.  I wrote him, and he's given 
me permission to quote his reply:

- ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------ 
Dear Bruce,
 
Thankyou for your interest in DGP's operations. DGP is working
diligently on its very own game system. We're working on a set of
core rules, and 3 distinct campaign settings. We have no idea
when these will be ready for publication.
 
We are also looking forward to rereleasing DGP's Traveller
archives in various forms, and we are interested in publishing
new works for the Traveller game system. WE ARE CURRENTLY IN
NEGOTIATIONS WITH IMPERIUM GAMES & MARC MILLER. We're in
agreement on the general terms of the licensing contract, but
these things take time, and there are still details to be worked
out. Just as soon as the contract is signed, we will get back to
work on Traveller. We won't even wait for the ink to dry!
 
And yes, there are unfinished Traveller projects in DGP's
archives in various stages of completion.
 
I hope I've answered your questions satisfactorily.
 
Sincereley,
 
Roger Sanger
Digest Group Publications
- --------------------------------------------------------------------

To which I can only reply..Hooray! I can finally get a copy of Rats 
and Cats without paying extortionist collector prices for it!!

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin)
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 17:02:10 -0600
Subject: FF&S Lite - I need it now!

If anyone has a copy of Fire-Fusion-and-Steel-Light in electronic format, I
would like to see it. I know nothing of this system, and would like to
review it for potential publication. For those in favor of this sort of
system, send it now or I won't have time to review it later. Thanks for
your help.

Don Perrin
Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 31 May 96 17:00:30 -0600
Subject: Re: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)

On 05/31/96 at 01:58 PM,  Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
said:

>I'd like to advocate the larger model of crew sizes used by TNE
>rather  than the smaller model pursued first by CT and then by MT,
>but perhaps with a stronger variation as tech level increases. 

The variation by tech level is a good idea.  Crew sizes for small
ships always seemed a little low, and for large ships too high. 

>Now for some math:  I'm using the "All Hands: Magazine of the U.S.
>Navy" "Owner's and Operator's Manual" from January 1996.  A Los
>Angeles class attack submarine (probably our closest analogy to a
>Traveller starship), has a displacement (submerged) of 6,927 tons and
>a crew complement of 145 (p. 39).  Now, those are tons of water.  I
>figure an English ton is around 908kg (though I'm figuring this in
>spare time at work and might be  off a smidgen here or there: I'm
>sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong! :-).  So a displacement
>ton is around .9 m^3 (1 m^3 of water weiging  1000kg).  So a
>displacement ton is around .9/14 or .0643 Traveller tons (14 m^3 of
>LHyd weighing 1000kg).  And the Los Angeles submarine is thus about
>6,927 x 0.0643 = 445 tons, which seems about right.  (It's a system
>defense boat!)

I'm glad you wrote this!  I don't really like the Traveller way of
describing ships in H2 displacement tons.  I describe my ships using
H20 displacement tons.  Doing it this way allows players to directly
compare ship sizes to real ships:  ex 3000 ton destroyer is a 200 ton
ship in Traveller terms (I appox conversions back and forth */ by 15),
a 7,200 ton Layfette class sub is 480 tons, the 42,000 ton battleship
Bismark was 2800 tons, a 80,000 ton modern aircraft carrier is 5400
tons.  Another way of saying this is 100 ton Scout = 1500 ton (frigate
sized) ship; 200 ton Free Trader = 3000 ton very small cargo ship; 400
ton Subsidized Trader =
6000 ton small cargo ship; 800 ton Broadsword = 12000 ton light
crusier.

I sniped your math...good work!  It mirrors a lot of what I've done
intuitively.  My version of the universe doesn't allow automation to
increase very fast.  Crews stay larger longer.

Military ships always have had larger crews than civilian ships, for
combat replacements, fire control, etc.  It makes sense to continue
that into space.

BTW, is the GDW-Beta list still active?  If so, what's going on in
there? And how would one join?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 31 May 96 17:33:28 -0600
Subject: FF&S Lite

On 05/31/96 at 09:19 AM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:

>>The FFS Light is available at
>>   http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight

>>This is the site of David J. Golden.

>        Thanks for the plug, but what I've got there isn't really a
>working design sequence, as I haven't had time to fill out the
>charts. It's more of an outline of how FF&S Light could work.

So I noticed.  <g> I eagerly dropped by the other night and got what
you had, not too much, but a start.

>Comments are welcome, and if there's enough interest we could develop
>it further for those who aren't interested in Paleolithic Starships,
>and intend to stay with FF&S/TNE. Assuming Marc Miller doesn't
>consider that an infringement of his copyright.

I hope you continue, if you can.  I'm not a gear-head, when it comes
to ship, but I do want to have as much detail as I need, and more over
time.

Like several folks have said, I want pre-gened ships, a light system
AND a detailed system.  Most of my ships start off as quick slapped
together jobs, and then acquire more and more detail as they are used. 
Using CT the detail totally had to come from me, and it followed no
standard.  Using FF&S there was no way to produce a quick ship, but it
gave me something to adapt and add into my simple CT like ships.  It
would be much better if the light and detailed systems worked together
better.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 17:07:41 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Simple Ship Design Processes

 
> >denizens of mail lists such as these tend to be the hardcore fans,
> >not the casual gamers that Traveller must attract if it is to grow at
> >all.
> 
> I was thinking the same thing last night.  Traveller isn't the details
> of the technology, it's the interaction of the PC's with strange and
> new enviornments.  The ships were always just a way of getting them
> there.

If you are working in space (exploring, fighting, whatever) your ship is
very important in some ways for roleplaying.  Aside from the details
that give the story life, I think sensors, for example, are very, very
important.  Many players and refs don't really have a feel for what they
detection problems really are.  These are mostly physics limited, so we
can actually have a decent idea of what it would take without much work
(0th to 1st order, anyway).  We have history for low end base point,
physics-limit as the upper end, and now for a midpoint.

Weapons/screens are similar.  Why, for example, have a combat system
that allows a few kg HE warhead do more damage than one with a smaller
warheard when they both hit the target at 10s to 100s of km/s?  These
are not things that need to be written about in detail in published
materials---but we're being asked for feedback on the design
assumptions.  The finished product will be simple to use, and internally
consistant.  Fine, I like that, too.  But why not fix some assumptions
that have to be made before gelling up the final, simple rules (there's
another end-point for assumptions, the canon (although that has some
stray ideas here and there that should be cleaned up once and for all
(jump-torps, etc.). 

> > The vast majority of players want something they don't need a degree
> >in physics to use, and that provides them with a design solution that
> >is, above all, ELEGANT.  High Guard was fairly straightforward and
> >internally consistent, even if it did leave a lot of excruciating
> >detail out.

I think that the gearhead, physics types aren't crying out for an
impossible to use system---what we want is to know that _underneath_ the
simple system to be published soon there is some serious thought to the
nature of the technology.  And, yes, on a nitty gritty level.  FFS did a
good job, but didn't use the CT canon as an end-point, so it never
replicated CT designs very well.

What I want is a HG-like system.  Simple base construction, then plug-in
sub-systems.  Then I want a FFS-like system to make the tables that
appear in the HG-like system.  

> >If a significant core market of old time players demand a more
> >complicated design sequence, what is to stop IG from producing it
> >later, once the game is up and running?  The original Traveller was
> >nothing if not modular...
> 
> Yes, I'll want the ability to include more detail, but I can stay with
> my own techniques until IG give me a good FF&S like system.
 
That's fine with me, as well, but retrofitting a detailed system could
be really hard if there are no changes in HG as it stands.  Modular to
me means that a detailed system won't break *any* designs made with the
simple system.  Book2 vs. HG does not meet this test.  B2/HG/Mayday/MT
all produced different combat results using ships designed to the same
specs.  Which is canon?  (HG with Mayday worked pretty well, IMO).

HG also produces optimized navies that don't mesh with canon very well
(could some hardcore TCS players comment?).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #33
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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 1 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 034

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Starship design war
         2. High Guard Feedback for Don Perrin
         3. Re: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)  [Effects of the Long Night]
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #32
         5. RE: The Way it Was
         6. RE: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)
         7. [none]
         8. More Crew Sizes info
         9. Re: Effects of the Long Night

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 16:40:41 -0700
Subject: Starship design war

When I first saw the post stating that MMT was going back to Book 2/High
Guard standards, it almost made change my mind about buying the new
Traveller.  That Bad.

I enjoy the level of detail that FF&S gives me when I need it.  If I don't
need it, I just describe the ship.  I have never, for example, paniced when
a ship encounter roll gave me a ship that I didn't have right on hand.  

For exceedingly large ships, the method is simple:

Me:  "It's a 30,000 ton RQS Cruiser.  They're hailing you.. want to do a
customs and safety inspection."

Player 1:  "Hmmmm.. What's it armed with?"

Me:  "It has weapon bays larger than your ship.  Lots of them."

Player 2:  "I'm cutting the drive.. everybody into their best uniforms!"

Someone mentioned not needing to know the exact power output of the power
plant.  That information was critical when the characters had to make it
look like a planet's defences were working by running the mount for a deep
meson site off their engine.

Please give us the detail to design what we need.  Using a modular system at
the lower level, but you will lose players the farther you get from hard
science.



# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#    "Timothy Leary is dead -- No...he's outside,   #
#     looking in...."           -The Moody Blues    #
#                  1920-1996 - RIP                  #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.avalon.COM>
Date: 31 May 96 16:09:36 MS
Subject: High Guard Feedback for Don Perrin

OK, Don Perrin, you asked for it; now here it is:

Steve's Expanded USP
XX-000000AB0-000000C-00000-0

1.  Sensors (and Detection Rules)
I have always used two additional values in the UPP to describe the Active and 
Passive Sensors on the ship (noted by A and B in the sample USP above).  The 
Passive Sensors were available in a number of different sizes/powers, 
restricted by the size of the ship and its tech level (as well as the bank 
account of the ship builder).  The Active Sensors were also available in a 
number of different sizes/powers, restricted by the ship's Computer and Tech 
Level.  Different sensor packages had different ranges, and in some cases had 
better performance in special circumstances (detecting things in an atmosphere, 
or high-radiation area etc).  The passive sensors were all basically the same, 
differentiated mainly by detection range.

But of course Sensors are of little use without sensor rules.  I used straight 
High-Guard combat for squadron actions, but for ship-to-ship battles or similar 
small engagements I would use a combination of Mayday movement rules and High 
Guard combat.  In Full-Scale High Guard combat the sensors were fairly 
lobotomized.  Sensors would allow the squadron commander to get initiative, and 
could be used as jammers against the other side's sensors.  Their main High 
Guard effect was sensors acted as Fire Directors for missiles.  The sensor 
would allow only a certain number of missiles to be controlled per turn.  In 
the "tactical" combat sensors would work to detect the target and to lock on, 
as well as to detect incoming missiles and other surprises (very similar to the 
2300AD sensor rules, though less complex).

Active Sensors (use a non-proportional Font to read the nice columns!)
              Minimum 
Code  Range   Computer   TL    Volume   Cost (MCr)     
0     1 km    None       6     00.0       0.1
1     10 km   None       6     00.1       0.5
2     100 km  1          7     00.5       1.0
3     1K km   1          7     01.0       2.5
4     10K km  1          8     02.0       5.0
5     50K     1          9     03.0      10.0
6     100K    2          A     05.0      25.0
7     150K    3          A     08.0      50.0
8     200K    4          B     10.0      75.0
9     250K    5          C     12.0     100.0
A     300K    6          D     15.0     150.0
B     350K    7          D     18.0     175.0
C     400K    8          E     20.0     200.0
D     450K    9          E     23.0     225.0
E     500K    9          F     25.0     250.0

Volume and price drop 10% per TL above minimum

Passive Sensors
                Minimum
Code  Range     Ship Size   TL   Volume  Cost (MCr)
0     1 km      0            7     0.0     0.1
1     10 km     0            7     0.1     0.5
2     100 km    0            7     0.5     1.0 
3     1K km     1            8     1.0     2.5
4     10K km    1            8     2.5     5.0
5     50K       1            9     5.0     7.5
6     100K      2           10     7.5    10.0
7     200K      3           10    10.0    15.0
8     300K      4           11    15.0    20.0
9     400K      5           12    25.0    25.0
A     500K      6           13    35.0    35.0
B     600K      7           13    50.0    50.0
C     700K      7           14    60.0    75.0
D     800K      8           14    75.0   100.0
E     900K      8           15    85.0   250.0
F     1000K     9           15   100.0   500.0

Price drops 10% per TL above minimum.  Volume is constant.


2.  More Missile Information (Different Types?)
In the text of the ship description, I would include how many salvoes of 
missiles the ship carried.  Salvoes could be made up of any of several types of 
missile:  Contact, Proximity, Antiradiation, Nuclear Contact, Nuclear 
Proximity.  Contact missiles depended on pure explosive power to damage the 
target.  Proximity missiles would either explode when near a ship or lie in 
wait for a passing ship before exploding; filling space with lots of metal 
particles to damage the passing ship (due to relative velocities and other fun 
physis effects).  Antiradiation missiles were Contact missiles designed to home 
in on radiation or sensor signatures (no controller required!).  Nuclear 
Contact missiles were like normal contact missiles, but far more devastating.  
Nuclear Proximity Missiles acted like the normal Proximity Missile, but instead 
of fast-moving fragments they depended on EMP to damage their enemies.  Except 
for AntiRadiation Missiles, all missiles would require sensor assistance for 
control guidance to target.

3.  Point Defense Weapons
Like Sensors, I altered the USP to support Point Defense batteries.  These 
batteries were low-powerd lasers that lacked the range to acck other starships, 
but could be used to attack incoming missiles or fighters.  The advantage to 
these weapons was that the batteries fired twice in defense: once during the 
normal defensive fire portion of combat, and once as a "second chance" when a 
successful hit was scored by a missile.  The PD Lasers could also fire on 
nearby fighters at the end of movement.  And best of all for the bloodthirsty, 
the PD lasers made excellent antipersonnel weapons while the ship was in port.  
These lasers had the same characteristics as the standard lasers.

4.  Computers
I added volume differentiation by tech level to computers (Yes, you can have a 
TL6 Model 9 computer, but its Megahuge).  I assumed that the Computer included 
other controls and communications gear, so I was not overly bothered by some of 
the volume restrictions, but I did feel that volume could be sacrificed to get 
desired computer technology earlier.  One thing I did do was largely do away 
with Computer Programs.  They really did not seem to add much to the game.  
However, I see no reason why software cannot be left in the game for those 
people who like that sort of thing.

In General
I am very hopeful that at some point in the future an effort is made to provide 
FF&S-like design rules for the various starship and vehicle subsystems, which 
produce results consistent with your "Base-Level" starship rules.  I thought 
High Guard design was an order of magnitude better than Book 2 Design, and I 
thought that FF&S/Brilliant Lances was an order of magnitude better than High 
Guard.  I really liked the details given by FF&S, but I do appreciate the 
ease-of-use from High Guard.  Being greedya nd self-centered, I want the best 
of both worlds.  So hop to it!  I'm part of the Instant Gratification 
Generation, after all, and I want to be gratified instantly.

Sreiously, though, I do wish you the best of luck Don & Co..  As you've no 
doubt noticed, there are lots of opinions around here, and they only rarely 
agree with what you want to do at any given time.  Basically, I'll prbably do 
something similar to what I noted above whether its in T4 or not.  That's not 
going to stop me from buying T4, or using a lot of other T4 rules.  I was happy 
enough with the TNE rules, but I'm fairly flexible.

Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com
My Employers have no opinions in this matter...

------------------------------

From: "David Reed" <nacht@neosoft.com>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 18:55:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)  [Effects of the Long Night]

Hey, we agree on something, Joseph!
- ----------
[big snip]
> Traveller's huge capital starships would now become truly impressive
war 
> machines on the _human_ scale as well as the purely physical one. 
We'd
> have a good explanation for the failure of many TL9 or TL10
cultures,
> during the Long Night, say, to form self-sufficient interstellar
trading
> communities (a crew of (.86^3)*.109*200 = 14 on a far trader crimps
> the economics a bit more, except, perhaps, to visionaries like Cleon
> Zhunastu, who see what wider trade and technical dissemination will
do
> for his people).

Does your statement about TL9 & 10 cultures have the underlying
assumption
that the pay scale for these crew would be comparable to "modern"
(Year 0)
levels?  Would this assumption apply to fascist governments, or true
altruistic
socialist states?  Or privateers/pirates/slave-traders?  Or does it
only apply
to profit-motivated corporate types?  There are other reasons than the
almighty
Cr to go into space, and we're lead to believe that a modicum of space
travel
did continue...  (Drake's _Igniting the Reaches_ has a good example of
the
privateer model, and exemplifies your crew levels theory, although it
does lack
in technical matters.)

Question:  Has anyone else theorized why the Long Night was less
traumatic
for the infrastructure than the Collapse (other than Virus)?  Given
the length of
the Long Night, wouldn't the majority of the "uninhabitables"
collapse?  OR
(my theory) was manufacturing of "high tech" components less
decentralized, 
less specialized, with individuals worlds being more self-sufficient? 
*Wow*,
just looked up the Long Night in my trusty Imperial Encyclopedia... 
1,776 years
of 'anarchy', longer than the whole of the Third Imperium...  And the
Pacification
Campaigns only lasted 50+ years, assuming the Imperium was fully
integrated
at that time...

If the latter is the case, which influence later centralized things? 
Increasing tech
complexity?  Vilani bureaucracy?  Megacorporation streamlining for
efficiency?

Curiousity:  Has anybody out there run a generation-ship campaign?

Personal question, Joseph:  do you use the GURPS rules for Traveller?
- -- 

Dave  <nacht@neosoft.com>

Zen
"If you wish to find the unclouded truth,
do not concern yourself with right and wrong.
Conflicts with right and wrong are a sickness of the mind."


------------------------------

From: Paul Radford <paul.radford@nottingham.ac.uk>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 01:43:55 +0100
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #32

Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com> said:

>I did not like High Guard's USP.  There were too many codes to remember their
>positional locations and what they ment.  But at least you could use high
guard.
>Now with the ship designs in FF&S and TNE, you cant easily take ship A put it
>in a fire fight with ship B, and in less than 5 minutes solve the combat.  In 
>my TNE campaign, I almost refused to do ship-to-ship because it was too
complex.
>
>Why is AD&D so successful with the most unrealistic combat system?  Because
it's
>simple.  Roll to hit, roll to damage, next contestant.  This should be the
guiding
>rule-- Keep it Simple!  Traveller is a Role-Playing Game, not a lesson in
mechanical
>engineering.

        Star Frontiers, also by TSR wasn't the most realistic of game
systems. It was simple enough but the popularity of Traveller must have
drowned it out (unless someone knows the facts). The starship design was
very simple and the starship combat although extremely simple. Ships had
data sheets showing maneuverability rating, acceleration/deceleration
factor, hull points, weapons and defences. It was enjoyable back in 1981 or
whenever but far too simple for consumption by Sci-Fi RPG gamers these days. 
        At the other end of the scale is FF&S and the Brilliant Lances
starship combat system. IMHO FF&S and BL are ok although i'm personally not
keen on the vector based movement system (however realistic it is). Neither
am i keen on the simplicity of High Guard which does not use a map of any
kind at all and does not aid visualisation of whats going on very well. In
some ways my own opinion is of little consequence. I'm the GM for a group
numbering up to about 6 players although 3 is the standard turn out in
addition to myself. They have become extremely turned off to Traveller
especially in the case of BL. None of them own any Traveller material at all
(however much i might have suggested purchasing some), and they don't want
to sit down and with FF&S and follow The Way Of The Gearhead. BL seems to be
their ultimate gaming nightmare. Starship combats using BL _always_
degenerate into a case of "Oh we can't be bothered with this", and i tend to
agree with them. We know that the BL portion could completely consume the
game session. Calls for playing Call of Cthulhu go out and Traveller goes
back on the shelf. Enthusiasm for a system must work both ways. Rob
Miracle's posts indicates that he knows what sort of thing i'm talking about.

I'm not a gearhead myself, but i did persevere with FF&S and created a
number of designs. Looking back at them i realise how bad conceptually they
were but thats because of a lack of reference to gauge what is a good armour
value etc when designing vehicles. The tanks i created were, well made of
cardboard in comparison to those in the Regency Vehicle book. But i digress.

Not everyone wants FF&S but i suspect fewer want to go back to CT/MT. Can
some sort of compromise be reached. FF&S lite seems a highly popular option.
Don Perrin must have been reading the volume of posts concerned with this
important area of Traveller. The question is, whats going to be done about
it? Anything at all? Comments please Mr Perrin or anyone else?

One more thing, whatever the outcome of the starship design sequence, be it
too simple or too technical, please make sure starship combat uses a hex map
of some kind and is actually fun and easy to play. When play testing, see if
the game works well when the players have not read the rule book.

Paul Radford



------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 20:21:21 -0500
Subject: RE: The Way it Was

> From: David J. Golden
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: The Way it Was
> Date: Friday, May 31, 1996 1:50 PM
> 
>         That's exactly why we want a light version of FF&S. Nobody is
saying
> the only design sequence should be the ultra-detailed FF&S. But we want
all
> the systems to be consistent. If I "bash" a ship together using the
basic
> system, I want to be able to tweak it later. If somebody designs a ship
> using one system, it shouldn't be significantly different than one
designed
> using the other, except in level of detail.

This seems like a sensible request. Are we certain, however, that this IS
NOT  the way the rules are being designed? from the statements I have
seen, I can not rule out the possibility. 

>         He's a businessman. He's selling (or hoping to sell) a product.
I'm
> a (potential) customer. I am telling him what I'd like to see in the
product
> ... what is needed to get my business. If he decides that he doesn't
want my
> business, that's his choice. But I'm free to give him my desires. AND
I'm
> suggesting a way he can satisfy both camps. You get your "the way it
was"
> system, I (and quite a few other people) get my detailed expansion.

Why not contact Imperium directly on the feasabilty of having an expansion
similar to FF&S? I could see the HG rules being used for refs who like
games played with mainly role playing, and a FF&S style supplement for
those who are primarily interested in war gaming, or who just have a lot
of time for design.
not having had the op to purchase striker II, i'm unaware of how it went;
but I do have striker & this is a perfect example of what I mean.....when
we wanted to role play, how many megajoules produced by a PP was'nt
pertinent; When you are War gaming, it is. they were not inconsistent. 

>  'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
>  the government - not the other way around.

Good tag. 


------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 20:27:33 -0500
Subject: RE: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)

>   US Subs are actually not as automated as they could be. The newest
> Swedish sub (Gotland, around 1500 tons submerged) has a wartime crew of 
> around 17. For example there is only one man at the helm, not four+one
> officer to oversee them.

Can you make a valid comparison? Swedish subs are designed primarily for
coastal patrol purposes, with short "at sea" rotations; the 688 sub used
for the math is designed to be, if neccesary, Submerged continually for 6+
months.



------------------------------

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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 675
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X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 675

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) sgenbin.zip
	by "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
  2) sgenbin.zip
	by Paragon369@aol.com
  3) Machine Guns
	by "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
  4) need comments on this "what is traveller?" article
	by Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:          Tue, 30 Apr 1996 12:25:49 -0800
From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
To: xboat@MPGN.COM, traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: sgenbin.zip
Message-ID: <199604301923.MAA24492@goodguy.goodnet.com>

Hey,

I ran across what looks like an interesting set of files on 1 of the 
ftp sites the other day, and frankly, I just don't understand what 
they do.

Is anybody familiar with the sgenbin software?  What does it do?  
There are no docs bundled with them, so I was wondering if anybody 
knows where I can get documentation.  Is it on an old TML mailing???

Let me know.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 18:20:57 -0400
From: Paragon369@aol.com
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: sgenbin.zip
Message-ID: <960430180522_481653760@emout18.mail.aol.com>

Hey,

I ran across what looks like an interesting set of files on 1 of the 
ftp sites the other day, and frankly, I just don't understand what 
they do.

Is anybody familiar with the sgenbin software?  What does it do?  
There are no docs bundled with them, so I was wondering if anybody 
knows where I can get documentation.  Is it on an old TML mailing???

Let me know.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from
"Foundation"
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -----
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located
next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    


- ----------------------- Headers --------------------------------
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------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 00:15:48 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: More Crew Sizes info

Airplanes are not adequate models for starship crew, as others have 
pointed out.  Their trip times are measured in hours rather than
the days to weeks of a starship (or submarine), they operate in
a generally less hostile environment to their passengers and crew,
and they rely on far more extensive post-flight maintenance and
overhaul than the starships Traveller postulates.  (Subs, on the
other hand, would likely receive a dry-dock overhaul, I'd guess,
every four or five years or so, if they're anything like the Navy
surface vessels my father used to captain).

I should point out that the Los Angeles is an ATTACK sumbarine, not a 
ballistic missile submarine.  The OHIO class (of ballistic missile 
submarines) displace 18,700 tons of seawater (or 1,202 Traveller
tons, a bit over an Xboat tender.  But those ain't Xboats in them
there bays....  :-)  It carries a complement of 154, giving a "crew
ratio" of 0.128 crew per Traveller ton, or about 40% of the ratio
for the Los Angeles.  So much for the claim that such subs are
over-manned to reduce the risk of accidental launches....  We could
argue that the Ohio represents the "next tech level" of command and
control systems (in which case I might grudgingly have to accept a 60%!
reduction rate, maybe tapering off as tech levels continue to increase),
though I'd consider it far more appropriate to treat the Ohio as
closer to a cargo-carrying merchant vessel which tries to _avoid_
combat rather than the conflict-seeking, other-sub-killing Los
Angeles vessels.  Remember, I was ready to grant those a half to
two-thirds "discount" on crew levels.

I'd take the Seawolf attack subs as a more likely candidate for a higher-
tech system.  They displace 9,130 tons (587 Trav tons) and carry 133 crew,
for a ratio of 0.227 crew/ton, a 30% reduction from the Los Angeles.  There,
I'm handing you ammunition for a higher fall-off rate.  :-)  If you'd
like to further argue that many of the command & control systems on
our subs may more resemble TL6 (circa 1950) more than the full potential
of TL7 (circa 1970) (an assumption I'm not quite prepared to make), you
could get another unit added to the exponent for the rough, back-of-the-
envelope hand-wavings we're dealing with here.

But in the mean time, my argument still stands: that ideally, realistically,
AND more entertainingly for role-play and conjecture, crew sizes in 
Traveller should vary by tech level and ship function.  I know there's
a great desire to simplify rules for the beginning market, but now is
also the time to be considering the variants to appear in the advanced
system.

For what it's worth, I rather like Mr. Golden's system of skeleton vs.
duty shifts, etc..  It assigns easy-to-understand words to the numbers,
and gives referees a fair amount of hand-waving freedom.  The basic
rules for the system would assume standard, civilian crewing (and if
military vessels were presented, crew numbers might be higher with
an explanation as to why: new referees could interpolate to get rough
values for ships they created using the basic rules, then polish them
up when the actual "advanced" rules arrived).  Dave, do you want to
toss around a few ideas off-list and then report back with any results?

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 00:44:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Effects of the Long Night

Quoth David Reed, though using lines too long for my 80-char terminal:
> Hey, we agree on something, Joseph!

A pleasant change, I must admit.  Thanks for being more thought-provoking
here than in your prior letter.  I'll respond in kind.  :-)

> Would this assumption [standard pay] apply to fascist governments, or true
> altruistic socialist states?  Or privateers/pirates/slave-traders?  Or does
> it only apply to profit-motivated corporate types?

Fascist governments are probably unlikely to want to expand on an 
interstellar level in Traveller: the communications lag makes rigid
control impractical.  Socialist states I can't comment on, not knowing
the technical basis on which they'd operate and survive (Traveller,
perhaps short-sightedly, seems to assume mostly Western-capitalist-style
societies among the humans of the 58th century).

Pirates and slavers seem a much more likely prospect (recall the Reavers
of Reavers' Deep, so-called only because they hung on there longer than
anywhere else as the Long Night drew to a close).  I'd also accept family-
based "space gypsies" a la TNE's Free Traders, who would wander as much
as part of life as in quest of profit.

> (Drake's _Igniting the Reaches_ has a good example

I've been meaning to read that one.  I hear it's quite Traveller-esque.
Is the new sequel any good?  A quick flip-check suggested it got rather
space-opera-ish... more so than most of the Traveller material I like.

> Question:  Has anyone else theorized why the Long Night was less traumatic
> for the infrastructure than the Collapse (other than Virus)?  Given the
> length of the Long Night, wouldn't the majority of the "uninhabitables"
> collapse?  OR (my theory) was manufacturing of "high tech" components less
> decentralized, less specialized, with individuals worlds being more 
> self-sufficient?

The Long Night didn't destroy as much infrastructure precisely because it
lacked Virus, which tended (in suicide strains), to take just about any
available technological items along with itself to destruction.  I suspect
many marginal planets did perish, which is why exploration, colonization,
and unification were able to proceed so quickly.  (Recall, the Imperium
reached its current size by, what, 400 or so?  That's pretty quick!)

Recall, also, that the tech level spectrum was probably "flatter" in the
First and Second Imperia.  The maximum was 12 or 13, I guess, and I strongly
suspect that Vilani expansion towards Terra was stretched fairly thin,
extending only to habitable worlds and strong bases around captive cultures.
(About the only way to justify the odd growth of the Ziru Sirkaa is that
one of the bureaux had to assimilate more alien cultures than the others,
and thus was forced to extend further and faster in spite of natural 
Vilani conservatism.  Otherwise why not hop right from Vland through 
Corridor to our favorite hang-out in the Spinward Marches?  It's far
closer than the Solomani Rim, and just about as rich in potential).  So, 
yes, the population was probably concentrated in high-tech centers which 
could survive to eke out a more stable economy and eventual independent 
expansion.  At least, that's my take on things.  We'll see what Marc 
Miller has in store by December.  :-)

> Pacification Campaigns only lasted 50+ years, assuming the Imperium was 
> fully integrated at that time...

>From what I recall (I can look up references if you like), the Imperium
expanded around and past resistant cultures and worlds, so the Pacification
Campaigns were, in many places, more "mopping up" and unification efforts
than out-out-out extension of frontiers.  (The latter sparked the Julian
War, which was a resounding failure for the Imperium....)

> If the latter is the case, which influence later centralized things? 
> Increasing tech complexity?  Vilani bureaucracy?  Megacorporation 
> streamlining for efficiency? 

We know Solomani interests declined at court, particularly after Zhakirov's
rebellious marriage.  And the "canon" history does seem to indicate a sort
of Vilani renaissance (culminating in the Restored Ziru Sirka of the 
Rebellion).  So, if I had to speculate in HIWG-ish terms, I'd put my
money on the second of your choices.

> Personal question, Joseph:  do you use the GURPS rules for Traveller?

Alas, I've never been able to _run_ GURPS:Traveller....  My group rotates
refereeing as well as campaigns, and there's been such clamor for my Roman
Fantasy setting (or the occasional excursion into Golden Age Supers or
Cthulhoid Horror), that I haven't yet been able to stake out a slot for
a Space campaign.  But my Interstellar Wars setting continues to gestate...
One of these days....  David Summers, on both this list and the GURPS one,
has created some rules for GURPS:Traveller.  I believe they're available
on the ftp.io.com site, in a fairly-findable directory.

A splendid topic, and just as relevant to the upcoming revival of Traveller
as these heated debates on starship construction.  Anyone for further
discussion of the Long Night?

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #34
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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 1 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 035

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Changes to systems
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #27
         3. Re: Changes to systems
         4. Re: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)
         5. Empress Wave/Black Curtain

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 01:52:36 -0600
Subject: Changes to systems

>When the detailed system comes out,
>it's going to have to live with whatever limitations are in the basic.

Apparently this is not true. If HG is so much different than FF&S, then
FF&S should not have been made (it doesn't fit with the ships designed in
HG). I'm looking at FF&S Light (still undeveloped) and FF&S/Brilliant
Lances Technical Booklet, and it is cumbersome and very
non-role-playing-inducive.

I'm struggling on this issue, and must keep in mind the stated goal of
Imperium Games. We are to provide a role playing experience that is based
on Classic Traveller, and set in the environs of Year 0. The combat system
cannot be hex based (otherwise it's a board game, not a role playing game,
and won't be at all suitable for inclusion in a book) and should be
something that a referee and players can handle in less than half an hour
to further their role playing experience.

The combat system, and some pre-generated ships will show in the main book.
The Ships book will contain the ship building system (basic) and some stock
ships, some with deck plans (to aid in role playing adventures).

If I do decide to go with a High Guard system, then I think it would be
fair to expect an FF&S system in a future expansion, along with a more
detailed hex based combat replacement. As was pointed out, Traveller is
nothing if not modular. If you don't like the basic system, then replace it
later with our advanced system, or, in the meantime, with FF&S/Brilliant
Lances.

For those who have offered to help me with the ship designs, please hold
off for a very short while until I am finished grappling with these issues.
I should have an answer for you Monday. Thank you to all the comments. They
have helped modify and improve what I'm doing, regardless of the path. Your
input has been invaluable.

I'll get back to you.

Cheers!

Don Perrin
Imperium Games



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 23:58:55 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #27

On 31 May 96 at 18:02, Andrew Boulton spewed:

> In-Reply-To: <199605300502.BAA28232@NS.MPGN.COM>
> 
> People want FF&S.
> 

Er some people do NOT want FF&S.  In fact I'm probably going to sell 
my copy soon...

Stick to your guns Don.  Just make sure that whatever you run with is 
edited and proofed properly.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 01:08:58 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Changes to systems

 
> Apparently this is not true. If HG is so much different than FF&S, then
> FF&S should not have been made (it doesn't fit with the ships designed in
> HG). I'm looking at FF&S Light (still undeveloped) and FF&S/Brilliant
 
The real problem is scaling some "real" number to HG "factors."  The
only reason that this is a problem is that so much stuff is folded into
HG factors.  It's in no way insurmountable, though.

> on Classic Traveller, and set in the environs of Year 0. The combat system
> cannot be hex based (otherwise it's a board game, not a role playing game,
> and won't be at all suitable for inclusion in a book) and should be
> something that a referee and players can handle in less than half an hour
> to further their role playing experience.

I can see that point, but it might be nice to make the abstract system
(HG) have at least some indication of more complicated range bands than
"short" and "long."  If the distances are given (as in book2, for
example) then conversion to a hex map is simple for anybody with mayday,
BL, or BR (or starfire, triplanetary, etc.).  Bashing a hex game from an
absract system is easy if you have scale.
 
> If I do decide to go with a High Guard system, then I think it would be
> fair to expect an FF&S system in a future expansion, along with a more
> detailed hex based combat replacement. As was pointed out, Traveller is
> nothing if not modular. If you don't like the basic system, then replace it
> lateckr with our advanced system, or, in the meantime, with FF&S/Brilliant
> Lances.
 
Sounds cool.  The fact that you plan on this now means you're thinking
about whaere it's gonna be going---makes me feel much better about
things :-)

- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 00:25:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)

Greg Porter wrote:

>Counterpoint - What should be the minimum crew size of a Boeing 747, based on
>its displacement?

Remember to count the maintenance people - even though they don't fly with 
it they still see it and tweak it every day.

Bruce Macintosh
bmac@igpp.llnl.gov

------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 18:23:03 +0900
Subject: Empress Wave/Black Curtain

This is directed to Mr. Wiseman and any other ex-GDW or Imperium Games 
people reading.

First I would like to say that I am very glad that Mr. Wiseman, Mr. Miller, 
Mr. Perrin, and many others officially involved (past or present) in 
Traveller have begun to be more active on this list.  It is very 
enlightening to read what they have to say.  Thank you!

I too shudder at the idea of going back to Book 2/5 design sequences.  In my 
opinion, it's a great leap backward.  I agree that there should be a simple 
system based on a complex one, with both being available for use.  I'm happy 
to see that Mr. Perrin is interested in FF&S Lite!

Now, what I really wanted to say was:

Since TNE is not being supported officially for at least a very long time to 
come, would it be possible for the people who thought up the Empress Wave 
and Black Curtain to fill us in on what they had in store for these things? 
 I would really like to know what the plans were and so on, so please share 
that information with us.  Please!

Thank you!!

Armand


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #35
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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 1 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 036

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. FF&S, Plug ins, et al.
         2. Re: Crew Sizes
         3. Re: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)
         4. FFS, Don't forget
         5. Re: Effects of the Long Night
         6. More T4 comments (ship stuff)
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #32
         8. Complexity of Spacecraft design
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #32
        10. re: New or Old Starship Designs
        11. re: New or Old Starship Designs
        12. Re: New or Old Starship Designs
        13. Getting T4 into the stores

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Michael Bailey <mickb@thehub.com.au>
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 22:31:37 -0900
Subject: FF&S, Plug ins, et al.

To add my A$0.02 to the debate:

I have to admit, having used FF&S, I'd be loath to go back to a High Guard
based ship design system.  I will (of course) be buying T4, but will be more
than likely continue to use FF&S/BL for starship design and combat.

That's the best thing about Traveller:  it's the setting, not the rules that
you or I choose to use that make the game what it is.  I thought seriously
at one stage about using RoleMaster/Spacemaster to play a couple of
adventures, mainly to see how it would work (I never did get round to it).

I agree however, that FF&S was bloody confusing at first - something that
plug-ins could help to overcome.  There is nothing to stop us from compiling
our own plug-in catalog.  

Slainte,

Mick
Michael Bailey 

'quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand.  Ignorance and
prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.'
                             Rush, 'The Witchhunt'


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 01 Jun 1996 09:12:49 GMT
Subject: Re: Crew Sizes

One problem I noticed with CT/MT and robots was that it was always cheaper to
replace a crewmember with a robot.  That being so, why did most merchants use
live crewmembers?

My solution was to let robots replace crewmembers, but to give them (robots)
absolutely no initiative when routine operations were departed from.  In game
terms, ships with robots had their initiative severely crippled in combat,
and had negative modifiers for all emergency tasks.

This seemed to work satisfactorily.  A merchant on a safe, fixed route could
save money by using robots.  One in the Marches, with the possibility of
Vargr corsairs, or a tramp trader refueling at gas giants, would be better
off with expensive but flexible sapients.

I used the same general rule for robotic weapons.  Very good at "shoot
anything that comes over the hill", not so good at "stop the assault while
minimizing civilian casualties".


------------------------------

From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
Date: Sat,  1 Jun 1996 09:50:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)

Greg Porter said:
> I have to disagree on the crew size notes of the previous message. 
> One reason for the crew of the sub being so large is that they 
> built-in the human element as a way to avoid the "accidental 
> launch" problem. Does a ballistic missile sub really *need* more 
> than someone to man the sensors and someone to steer or do other 
> misc. chores (say 3 men per shift)? Everything else could be automated. 
> Do you have to have the captain relay orders to the first officer, 
> who relays it to someone else, who actually does the work? 

I don't think commmand and control reasons really affect crew size that much -
- - there are only three or four officers on a US boomer with launch keys, so 
even if you wanted each key to have two officers (primary and backup), that's 
only six bodies.

A much bigger factor is that trained crew can fix broken machines, but 
machines can't fix broken machines.  Russian/XSSR subs are more highly 
automated, and have crews that are up to one-third smaller than an equivalent-
sized US sub.  The USN has always believed that the greater the level of 
complexity, the more problems you will have.  The number of Russian/Soviet 
subs lost over the past three decades (I can think of at least three off the 
top of my head) versus the number of US subs lost (the last one lost was USS 
Scorpion, in 1968) seems to support the point, although I will be the first to 
admit there are a lot of other factors involved.

NASA once reached the same conclusion: it did a study in the 1960s on manned 
vs unmanned spaceflight, that concluded that people are the only self-
programming, self-maintaining computer capable of being created using low tech 
means.


David Golden said:
> And there's actually some logic behind that. Automation is great, until 
> it gets damaged. And military ships (space or sea) are more likely to 
> be damaged than merchants. So you have to carry enough people to 
> handle things when the new-fangled autogizmos go out. But those 
> people will get bored, stale and lose their skills if all they do is 
> sit around watching "George" run things. So you dispense with some of 
> the automation in the first place to keep them busy. That, and 
> you're carrying them anyway. Might as well use them. 

Jerry Pournelle wrote an essay entitled "Building the _Mote in God's Eye_" 
that made this exact point.  The original opening chapter of _Mote_ included a 
space battle between an automated rebel cruiser and a fully-manned Imperial 
warship.  Before the battle, the rebel captain laments that moral was low 
because his crew was bored.


Greg Porter said:
> Counterpoint - What should be the minimum crew size of a Boeing 747, 
> based on its displacement? 

Airliners aren't in the air constantly -- they stop at places were people 
service them and they change crews.  Imagine them minimum crew size of a 747 
if it (1) carried the maintenance crew withit, and (2) was in the air 
continuously for months at a time.  I suspect the normal crew (flight plus 
attendants) for a 747 is around 10; in the above scenario, it would probably 
be closer to 40.


Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
someday agree with something I say.


------------------------------

From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 16:29:25 +0200
Subject: FFS, Don't forget

I been reading the debate about the FFS versus HG designs and
I think that most of you is forgetting something. Alot of you
complain that FFS takes some of the fun out of ROLE-playing 
because it makes the game to much "hard science" and detailed.
But FFS is not a player aid to the game, it is a clear Referee
supplement to design no-standard ships, vehicles and equipment,
so that every refree has the oppertunity to make his/her gameworld
uniqe. Every group can of course play with only the ships that
IG designs, but some of the referees out here need a supplement
that details the designing of ships to fit the rules of starship
combat. If this is not available the diversity of the game is 
prohibited by the stuff IG gives out.

Therefor I'm disapponted that IG decides to go with a system of
combat that has no clear designsequence for the ships that is
to participate under these rules. Why not use the FFS rules, a
good TRAVELLER-Referee supplement, and build on this. This gives
the referees of the game the oppertunity to make good and detailed
ships that is needed in a "hard science" rpg. 

But I also feel that FFS fills another void. A void that the basic
rulebook ahs no way of filling. How does equipment (sensors, lasers,
missiles really work). FFS gives detailed descriptions of alot 
of the stuff the players are bound to ask. "Can I do this with 
this sensor?" and so on. 

Well, I have to stop now before my frustrations take over.

- --
Tommy Grav 
Email: tommyg@ifi.uio.no
WWW-Page: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html
"Sooner or later the worst set of circumstances are bound to occur."

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:05:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Effects of the Long Night

On Sat, 1 Jun 1996, Joseph Chepe Lockett wrote:

> A splendid topic, and just as relevant to the upcoming revival of Traveller
> as these heated debates on starship construction.  Anyone for further
> discussion of the Long Night?

I'm all for it.  I'd like it if IG introduced a milieux book based on it, 
as it would be an exciting time to play in.  The canon is that some 
worlds never really knew what happened - ships just stopped coming.  The 
onset of the Long Night would be a great starting point for a campaign.

Of course, Milieux 0 will be equally exciting, since it presents the 
opposite scenario.  Some worlds will be happy to see the renewed expansion 
of trade, while others (quite likely those groups of worlds under one 
rulership - pocket empires) will resist.  

Getting back to the Long Night, not much has been written about it.  I 
have always taken the obvious path of likening it to the dark ages that 
followed the collapse of the Roman empire.  People progressively lose 
technological know-how, yet the technological artifacts of the previous 
age remain.  Economies that were propped up by the empire fall to pieces, 
and the people suffer because of it.  

I probably have some incorrect ideas about the Long Night since I am not 
an expert in the collapse of empires.  I'd like to hear the opinions of 
those who studied the dark ages.  What does history tell us about what 
probably occurred during the Long Night?

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:05:35 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: More T4 comments (ship stuff)

Greetings,

A few things that would be nice to see...

1.  Explicit mention of what the drive tech is someplace.  

2.  If sensor rules aren't detailed in the first stuff out, how about at
least the Book2 detection ranges, etc. 

3.  When doing the travel tables (in-system) it'd be nice if ships had
limited delta v, even with thruster plates.  Even if it's very high, it
would really help to suspend disbelief since every lifeboat won't be a
planet killer.

4.  More clear-cut examples of ship configurations would be really nice.

5.  The old list of upcoming stuff shows small craft design as a
separate title.  This is silly, IMHO.  A book of small craft would be
cool.  Having this book include rules for alternate sublight drives
would be cool (hey, Milieux 0 will have more low-tech races being
found).  But having a separate design system for craft that differ only
by not having J-drive makes no sense.

Not a complete list, but worth throwing out there.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 10:19:11 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #32

 
> One more thing, whatever the outcome of the starship design sequence, be it
> too simple or too technical, please make sure starship combat uses a hex map
> of some kind and is actually fun and easy to play. When play testing, see if
> the game works well when the players have not read the rule book.
> 
> Paul Radford

I know Don was just saying the first books won't have a "board game"
system, but a more abstract system can still be played out on hex paper
if at least something like the Book2 rules are given for movement.  We
almost always (in CT) did a Mayday/HG hybrid using hex paper instead of
a map and counters.  It is simple to keep track of, and gives a nice
hard copy of they ship-ship interaction.  As a ref, and as a player I
really liked the sense of scale it gave (draw a planet on the hex paper
if it applies and the scale makes sense).

I'd suggest that in place of a Book2 system of playing it out on the
floor, use similar rules, but suggest using hex paper.  It would eat up
any more space than the Book2 rules did, and people would actually use
it (I did use the Book2 rules for a long time, actually :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 19:07:10 +0200
Subject: Complexity of Spacecraft design

Andrew Boulton wrote:

> > [Starship design as in CT/HG]
>
>NONONONONONONO. No. 

>NOBODY WANTS THIS.

I'm afraid, you're wrong here, Andrew. There are people (like me) who prefer
a simple and easy to use system. I'm not sure, which group is the larger one
at this list but I believe that most gamers would be more attracted by the
easier rules.

I don't see ship design as an end in itself. I put my emphasis on role
playing characters. For me, I expect some answers on the following question. 

How long does it take to go from A to B? What are the costs for that? How
difficult is it to reach the destination (measured in skill rolls)? How
large is the crew (minimum and best)? What's the vessels capacity? What's
its combat value? What's its picture? What's its price?

That's all, a ship design system needs to answer. I've no need for further
details. Eventually, I can come up with them without rules if they're needed.

I never managed to build a ship sucessfully with the FF&S rules but with CT
it a matter of half an hour or less. Well, I don't think the old rules are
perfect. In fact, there're a couple of things I would like to change, but
they are a better starting point than FF&S IMHO.

>Extend the table left down to TL8 and right up to TLG. 
>Lose the bis models.
>They all look a bit big IMHO.

It's a problem with Traveller since the beginning. I wouldn't even allocate
space for a computer because it should always fit into the bridge.

>I'd rather have *NO* ship design system in the main rules (with FF&S Mk2
>coming along later) than go back to High Guard (or worse, Starships).

I found TNE very incomplete without the ship design system. Otherwise, 
with the same argument you could leave out the world design or even the
character design (simply supply 30 ready-to-run character in the basic rules :-)

bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...keep it as vague as possible
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 96 18:25 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #32

In-Reply-To: <199605311817.OAA07414@NS.MPGN.COM>

In message , owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM said:
> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:19:11
> -0600 Subject: Re: FFS and MM's Traveller
>  
> At 02:29 pm 5/30/96 -0400, Tom Ellis (tellis@telerama.lm.com) wrote:
>> The nice thing about a simple, CT style system is it is easily adapted and
>> added to should referees and players desire more detail.
>  
> CT *Style*, not CT. That's the whole idea behind Fire, Fusion and Steel
> Light. Take detailed rules, create a set of plug-n-play systems a la CT/HG,
> and make that the basic design sequence. Those who want more detail can use
> the full-up system to design ships FULLY COMPATIBLE with the basic ships.
> Which a CT/HG clone won't do, even within itself. -

I'd buy that.

> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:52:07
> -0600 Subject: Spacecraft Design
>  
> I volunteer as much time as I have available to help, outside of grad
> school and my real job (keeping the Milstar comsat working). In fact, I
> have three years' worth of accumulated leave, if needed. I'm not asking for
> anything in return ... not money, not credit, not free products, not
> thanks, nothing. I just want the new Traveller to be something I'm willing
> to spend money on. And something with spacecraft based on 20+year old rules
> is not it.

Imperium Games - HIRE THIS MAN *NOW*!

> I realize you have your own vision of where Traveller should go. It is Marc
> Miller's Traveller, literally, and he can mold it to his own vision. But
> it's not a religion, it's a business. If that vision doesn't match up with
> what others want, they're customers not believers, and they won't follow.
> And that's what scares me. If this flops, there won't be an opportunity to
> turn around and try again. Traveller will be dead except in the hearts of
> those who've "kept the flame."

Remember: The customer is always right.

> From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com> Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 13:40:26 -0400
> (EDT) Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #27
>  
>> People want FF&S.
>  
> Not everyone wants FF&S.  I want it to go back to the way it was.  Yes

I didn't say *everyone* wants it, but - if the comments I see here are
anything to go on - the *majority* do.

> provide more detail, but don't force the people that play and ref the game
> to spend hours on something that should take minutes.  I could build a

Nobody's forcing you to do anything. If there are enough pre-generated
ships supplied, most people won't need to touch it unless they want to.

> detail.  Frankly it just doesnt matter.  You need J distance, M-speed, fire
> power and defense. (Ok sensors are a good idea, and the computer needs to
> have less of a role) You need state rooms, and cargo holds, but not much
> more.  The number of MegaJoules produced by the power plant is completley
> irrelevent in role-playing.  Yes its fun for the gear heads.  

It *can* be useful to know: that your ship has longer-range sensors (or
weapons) than your opponent; how long your fuel will last; if you can use
your ship's power plant to power external equipment, and still keep
life-support running; etc etc


> the combat.  In  my TNE campaign, I almost refused to do ship-to-ship
> because it was too complex.

I agree that we need a simpler combat system, so as not to slow the *game*
down, but that's not the same thing.

> Why is AD&D so successful with the most unrealistic combat system?  Because

Because a) it got there first, b) has name recognition, and c) has a huge
company behind it.

>> You're asking us to design ships using rules that haven't been written
>> yet, based simply on a vaguely descriptive name (how big is a Destroyer?).
>> Tell us what you want, and we'll design it for you (using FF&S,
>> obviously).
>  
> Yes they have, Starship's Book 2.  The Traveller Book, Book 5 High Guard.

A lot of people here never had them, since they began with MT or TNE.
Others (like myself) dumped them when something better (ie MT) came along.

> From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> Date: Fri, 31 May 1996
> 14:17:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Starship Designs.
>  
> Okay, time for the arts student to speak up (life's like a box of
> chocolates...:-)!  I don't know where the rest of you get the time to spend
> 4 hours designing a starship for an RPG, but I have a life to worry about. 

You're obviously smart enough to find your way around email software, would
you be happier if there was a program to design the ships for you? 


                      --------=====OOO=====--------
Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."

------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Fri, 3 May 1996 20:56:58 +0200
Subject: re: New or Old Starship Designs

>>Computer table:
>Revenge of the 20-ton computers. It's very hard to imagine how any function
>on a starship (with the possible exception of Jump, since you can make up
>any story you like about how complex jump calculations are) could possibly
>require a 20 ton computer. Giant death computers are one of the most glaring
>flaws in b2/hg. Computers should really have near-negligable mass and power
>requirements (but non-negligible price.)
>
When I used HG as shipdesign system way back I always figured computer volume
was for the computer(s), sensors in the ship for stresses, temperature etc
and most importantly external sensors of the ship. I also ruled that
fighters (and other ships as well) could use another ships computer/sensors
given that it was within a certain range from the other ship. This gave
neat effects as Luke Skyrunner shot down the main commo dish on Faders
capital ship making the huge fighter armada blind and useless.
>
>-power plant fuel: the canonical numbers were a couple of orders of
>magnitude too high - a fusion power plant will use negligible amounts of fuel
The powerplant fuel is mostly for cooling. Extract the tiny amount of
deuterium from the fuel and use the rest as coolant by heating it and throw
it out the back giving you that cool StarWars like thrusters that doesn't
kill everybody nearby.

>-the limit-one-spinal-mount-per-customer rule
Given that spinals are aimed by the ship attitude why have more than one?
It is better to have one twice as large or with twice the ROF. The problem
with HG spinals among others was that you couldn't under/over power them
for DMs due to ROF.

>-fusion guns as starship weapons (sound neat, but starship weapons really
>have to move at lightspeed to have a chance of hitting)
The reason why fusion guns are useless as spaceweaponry is not their speed
as you could probably get close enough to c if you wanted. The problem is
how to keep the plasma together in vacuum.

>Different people on this mailing list will have different opinions, of
>course; the nostalgia value alone does win a HG-based system some points...
>but I'm really going to miss FFS. At least consider tweaking the new
>system a little:

The most important addittion to HG IMHO is surface area. Calculate armor
based on surface area and let each turret/bay/spinal use a certain area to
limit the number of weapons on big ships.

>There's lots of stuff I like that is more controversial (I like the HEPlaR
>fuel limits), but I bet almost everyone would agree on the four
>points given above.

I'd love to have Traveller go back to HG as that was useful to the average
GM, FF&S was loved by gearheads but required too much work and the physics
behind it was mostly crap so it wasn't useful for my kind of gearheadedness
anyway.

/Backman



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 14:33:58 -0800
Subject: re: New or Old Starship Designs

On  3 May 96 at 20:56, Anders Backman spewed:

> I'd love to have Traveller go back to HG as that was useful to the average
> GM, FF&S was loved by gearheads but required too much work and the physics
> behind it was mostly crap so it wasn't useful for my kind of gearheadedness
> anyway.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but what the heck...  

This has always been my argument against FF&S.  We really don't 
know if meson guns, lasers, j-drives, etc, will ever exist or work as they are 
described in any version of the game, so why get so excited about 
designing fictional vehicles down to the last nut and bolt.  Give me 
something quick, clean, that captures the feel of what space combat 
MIGHT be like, because let's face it, none of us will be alive to 
ever experience what it will REALLY be like, if it ever happens...

While I may not like FF&S, I have no problem with IG designing 
something more complex for the gearheads, as long as the end results 
in design are compatible...

Donning the asbestos underwear...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 17:26:11 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: New or Old Starship Designs

 
> When I used HG as shipdesign system way back I always figured computer volume
> was for the computer(s), sensors in the ship for stresses, temperature etc
> and most importantly external sensors of the ship. I also ruled that

That's the way I looked at it to.  I figured "computer" in HG/B2 must
mean "electronics."  Given that computers have so many uses other than
running starships, I'd suggest making a new list of computers that are
cheaper and smaller, and just make an electronics suite that would fill
the place of the old HG "computers" when describing old designs.

> >-the limit-one-spinal-mount-per-customer rule
> Given that spinals are aimed by the ship attitude why have more than one?
> It is better to have one twice as large or with twice the ROF. The problem
> with HG spinals among others was that you couldn't under/over power them
> for DMs due to ROF.

I agree with this arguement, but I'd rather see a _combat_ rule that
penalizes trying to shoot more than 1 spinal mount during a turn (time
interval, whatever).  Then the old HG rule is really just a very
accurate "rule of thumb."  A subtle difference, but easier to make sense
of.
 
> >-fusion guns as starship weapons (sound neat, but starship weapons really
> >have to move at lightspeed to have a chance of hitting)
> The reason why fusion guns are useless as spaceweaponry is not their speed
> as you could probably get close enough to c if you wanted. The problem is
> how to keep the plasma together in vacuum.

At what point does a fusion/plasma gun get called a C-PAW?  I'd assume
when the plasma gets relativistic.  At least having an energy weapon
slot in the USP leaves room for some other kind of weapon to get bashed
in :-)
 
> The most important addittion to HG IMHO is surface area. Calculate armor
> based on surface area and let each turret/bay/spinal use a certain area to
> limit the number of weapons on big ships.

Yeah!  Another subtle difference, but it makes sense that such "1 per
100 tons" rules are just good rules of thumb.  Why would the Zhodani
have the exact same limit as the Imperials (or the Hivers, or Aslan,
etc.)?  Even if the rule was just rephrased to express this it'd make
more sense when detailed add on rules are published.
 
> I'd love to have Traveller go back to HG as that was useful to the average
> GM, FF&S was loved by gearheads but required too much work and the physics
> behind it was mostly crap so it wasn't useful for my kind of gearheadedness
> anyway.

A lot of the physics was not perfect, but I like the attempt to
charaterize the physics of the technology a little.  Of course a lot of
my favorite science fiction involves technology/physics and interesting
results of such.  It doesn't have to be as detailed as FFS, but *some*
detail (in the background now, to be published later, hopefully) would
be nice.

Another point is that the published history includes wars fought with
this tech---and the tech _described_ doesn't always mesh with what works
best using HG.  Since the background is one of traveller's best points,
it would be nice if fundamental rules don't make us scratch our heads
when we read background (see lasers in TNE rules vs. published use as a
recent example).

- -Merrick
- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 19:05:09 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Getting T4 into the stores

I've been pondering about getting T4 into as many stores as possible.  A 
lot of suggestions have been put forth, but it sounds like most people 
have many contacts in many game stores in their area.  My situation is a 
bit different.  I've only lived here for a few years, so I don't have the 
advantage I would if I were still in northern CA, where I grew up.

In addition, where I live (northeastern Illinois), there aren't a whole 
lot of RPG stores (Games+ is the only one I know of in Lake County).  
There's Gamers' Paradise, but they seem to be concentrating on videogames, 
puzzles, board games, and other non-RPG stuff.  Plus, their RPG section 
leaves much to be desired.  Take out the AD&D stuff and the Games 
Workshop stuff, and you don't have much left.  This is even more true of 
the area comic book shops.  They carry AD&D and a few White Wolf 
products, and that's about it.  

Given that, how in the heck is Traveller going to gain a wide audience 
around here?  I can't go to these stores and tell them all that I want 
them to carry T4 because I'll buy it from them - I'm not going to lie to 
get them to carry the game.  I can go there and talk to them about this 
great new/old game that is coming out, but from the existing product 
selection, I have doubts that would be effective.

I am sure that Games+ will carry it (they carry everything - even a 
surprising amount of out-of-print stuff).  Gamers' Paradise is a chain, 
so I don't think working on them would do much good.  I think the best 
chance lies with the independently owned comic book shops.  Perhaps I 
should just go in and talk to the owner, eh?  I don't know these people, 
though.  Are they going to listen to me?

Is anyone else in a situation similar to mine?  What are your plans?  Any 
recommendations?

Thanks,

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 1 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 037

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: FF&S Lite - I need it now!
         2. Imperium Games/Ship Design
         3. RE: The Way it Was
         4. Re: More Crew Sizes info
         5. Re: Changes to systems
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #32
         7. Re: Getting T4 (Canadians read MMT) into the stores
         8. Re: Predesigned Ships, Game Systems, and Miniatures
         9. [none]
        10. Virus Redux Starship Factory

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 19:53:52 -0600
Subject: Re: FF&S Lite - I need it now!

At 05:02 pm 5/31/96 -0600, you wrote:
>If anyone has a copy of Fire-Fusion-and-Steel-Light in electronic format, I
>would like to see it. I know nothing of this system, and would like to
>review it for potential publication. For those in favor of this sort of
>system, send it now or I won't have time to review it later. Thanks for
>your help.

        Unfortunately, there isn't a finished FF&S Light product. It's
something that has been batted around on the Traveller and GDW-Beta lists
for a while, and I have a draft outline published on my Web pages at 

http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html

I can zip that up and email it to you, in HTML format.


Also, because of my vocal support for the idea, somebody (I can't find the
original message) challenged me to develop it and make an unsolicited
proposal to you. I've already started on that. If you _are_ interested, I've
already had some ideas on improving what's I've published, and with inputs
from the Traveller and GDW-Beta lists I'm willing to bet we could have
something available within a week. I can take some leave and spend much of
my time working on this (I'm already scheduled to be off the week after this).

SUMMARY
- -------

The basic idea behind FF&S Light was this: While the full design rules given
in FF&S are very powerful, some folks don't want to have to design each and
every system -- maneuver drives, jump drives, power plants, weapons --
they're putting into a starship. Furthermore, we felt that manufacturers
would have "prebuilt" major systems. ("The AstroTech model XVI Jump Drive!
Provides Jump-2 when installed in a 100Ton hull, or Jump-1 in a 150Ton
hull!"). If we were to take the rules, and provide predesigned components
that could be plugged in, a casual user could bang out a design in minutes.

The downside would be that the design would not be fully "optimized." For
example, if the design require 78.7MW of power (or 78.7 Power Points for
those who feel uncomfortable using Megawatts), and the closest available
predesigned power plant was 85MW, the ship would have a little less free
space than one with a custom-designed power plant.

>From the play point of view, this provides some distinction and variation in
otherwise "similar" designs. One is custom-built to the customer's specs,
and costs more. The other is built from "standard" components, isn't
perfect, but costs less (because the builder just runs down to the warehouse
and pulls something off the stack).

Another benefit of this is the one many "gearheads" like -- the casual user
gets an easy system. Gearheads can go into more detail, handcrafting ships,
and they are fully compatible with each other playwise. And you can slip
into "gearhead" slowly. If you don't want to waste the space for the 85MW
power plant, but you're satisfied with the rest of the design, you can
design _just_ the powerplant in detail.

>From your point of view, it also gives you something more to publish in
magazines or supplements: additional predesigned components to expand the
basic system.

Finally, while I (and everybody else) has been referring to it as FF&S
Light, doesn't mean we claim FF&S is the be-all and end-all of design
systems. Gearheads want that level of detail, and FF&S provides a good
starting point. But if you want to tinker with the FF&S rules to create a
new advanced system, and then abstract it to the basic system, that's fine.
The benefit of sticking with an FF&S-derived system is threefold: 

        [1] You don't have to create the advanced system from scratch (and
you need the advanced to generate a good basic system). This saves you mucho
time in preparing for publication of the rules.
        [2] Many people are familiar with FF&S already, and can help design
and playtest modifications. 
        [3] There are a huge heap of predesigned vehicles and spacecraft out
there, that would only need minor tweaking to comply with any changes. This
saves you time towards publication as well.

My offer stands: I will provide as much help as possible in getting this off
the ground. If you'd like to talk to me personally, I can e-mail you my
voice phone number. I'm not asking anything in return.

I think you'll find a fair number of highly creative and talented people
willing to make the same offer.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 21:17:31 -0500
Subject: Imperium Games/Ship Design

First, I'd like to thank Marc, Ken, and Don for talking to us here on the
list and asking and considering our opinions.  Its nice to have some input
on where Trav might be headed (at least in some of its aspects).  Thanks guys.

>From: dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin)
>
>If I do decide to go with a High Guard system, then I think it would be
>fair to expect an FF&S system in a future expansion, along with a more
>detailed hex based combat replacement. As was pointed out, Traveller is
>nothing if not modular. If you don't like the basic system, then replace it
>later with our advanced system, or, in the meantime, with FF&S/Brilliant
>Lances.

I don't have any CT material (Except Adventure 2: Research Station Gamma),
so I can't comment on the quality of the High Guard design system, but I
believe you've answered almost everyones concerns here.  I think the simple
system is necessary for the beginning to be included with your supplements
release.  When I started in MT, I never could bring myself to buy any of the
pre-designed ship/vehicle books for the simple fact that I already had the
design system and a dozen ships/vehicles in the basic rules.  Including the
basic system in the core rules is a must.

I also believe that your idea to do a FF&S system in the future is a must.
I was thrilled with FF&S.  The reading and formula deciphering was a bit
tough, but the overall concept was terrific.  I'm upset that we can't get
this type of supplement sooner, but then again I understand the publishing
constraints you guys face.  I think the biggest point that you need to
concentrate on is making sure that:

        1. Your basic book is as flawless as it can possibly be.  As has
been pointed out before, MT as well as other Trav products suffered heavily
from the misprints and editing problems.  Make sure your book (and all the
other Trav products) are error free (or as close as possible).

        2. Make triple sure that your future FF&S system is backwards
compatable(sp?).  This is really the only issue, I think, that you haven't
addressed, and, consequently the biggest worry from most of us here.  No
matter how simple your initial system is, I think the future, more detailed
system needs to be compatable with it.  In other words, the official
Imperium Scout/Courrier published in your first book... I should be able to
design it with the simple system you include with that book as well as with
any other, more detailed system you publish in the future.

These two issues are, IMHO, the most pressing.

>
>For those who have offered to help me with the ship designs, please hold
>off for a very short while until I am finished grappling with these issues.
>I should have an answer for you Monday. Thank you to all the comments. They
>have helped modify and improve what I'm doing, regardless of the path. Your
>input has been invaluable.

I would love to help with the design of some of these ships, but I have no
access to the HG design system.  If you have some way that I can get access
to this system, I'd love to help you wherever you need the help.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 20:22:27 -0600
Subject: RE: The Way it Was

At 08:21 pm 5/31/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>But we want
>all
>> the systems to be consistent. If I "bash" a ship together using the
>basic
>> system, I want to be able to tweak it later. If somebody designs a ship
>> using one system, it shouldn't be significantly different than one
>designed
>> using the other, except in level of detail.
>
>This seems like a sensible request. Are we certain, however, that this IS
>NOT  the way the rules are being designed? from the statements I have
>seen, I can not rule out the possibility. 

        If you start out with the basic system, and then try to graft on a
more detailed system, you're going to have trouble with the compatibility.
The proposed rules are the perfect example: Design a starship with Book 2,
and then create the same ship with HG.

>Why not contact Imperium directly on the feasabilty of having an expansion
>similar to FF&S? I could see the HG rules being used for refs who like

        I have, and that's what I expect they're already planning anyway.
But like I said, I think the advanced rules have to be developed first, and
then abstracted to the basic rules.

>we wanted to role play, how many megajoules produced by a PP was'nt
>pertinent; When you are War gaming, it is. they were not inconsistent. 

        Call it Megawatts like FF&S does, call it Power Points like High
Guard does, it doesn't matter. Either is just a way of rating the output of
generators and the needs of other systems.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 20:22:29 -0600
Subject: Re: More Crew Sizes info

At 12:15 am 6/1/96 -0500, you wrote:
>For what it's worth, I rather like Mr. Golden's system of skeleton vs.
>duty shifts, etc..  It assigns easy-to-understand words to the numbers,
>and gives referees a fair amount of hand-waving freedom.  The basic
>rules for the system would assume standard, civilian crewing (and if
>military vessels were presented, crew numbers might be higher with
>an explanation as to why: new referees could interpolate to get rough
>values for ships they created using the basic rules, then polish them
>up when the actual "advanced" rules arrived).  Dave, do you want to
>toss around a few ideas off-list and then report back with any results?

        Well, I did some thinking while I was up in the mountains last night
(great time, until this miserable cold moved from the back of my throat to
the rest of my body). Here's what I'm visualizing now:

        1. Each system has a basic "Crew Factor" associated with it. This is
the number of skilled bodies needed to routinely operate the system, monitor
its behavior, identify problems, etc. This would be a "minimally" automated
system (for that TL).

        2. Automation can reduce the crew required significantly. The level
of automation would be a simple multiplier. Add up all the crew factors,
multiply by the automation factor, and that's the number of people you need
to run the system at one time.

        3. Some systems don't need full-time crewing: weapons, for example.
Others do. The ones that do would need enough personnel for shifts. There
might be a variance here among races, too. Perhaps human ships carry three
shifts, working 8 hours on, 16 hours off. Aslan might carry two, working 10
and 10 (or some such).

        4. Crews would still be broken up by specialty: Engineering,
Maneuver, Gunnery, Medical, Flight, Electronics, etc., etc.

        5. Systems that aren't properly crewed can reduce the efficiency of
the ship.

        This still needs more work. If the whole list isn't highly
interested in this, perhaps you (and anybody else) would like to hold an
e-mail discussion and just bring back the results?
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 20:22:31 -0600
Subject: Re: Changes to systems

At 01:52 am 6/1/96 -0600, Don Perrin wrote:
>For those who have offered to help me with the ship designs, please hold
>off for a very short while until I am finished grappling with these issues.
>I should have an answer for you Monday. Thank you to all the comments. They
>have helped modify and improve what I'm doing, regardless of the path. Your
>input has been invaluable.
>
>I'll get back to you.
>
>Cheers!

        Cheers indeed! To be honest, I had the half-formed opinion I (and
others) was just blowing into the wind with our comments, that the decision
to go with CT/HG wasn't one to be reconsidered lightly. The fact that you
are at least thinking about it is very, very heartening, even if you decide
to continue that way.

>> If I do decide to go with a High Guard system, then I think it would be
>> fair to expect an FF&S system in a future expansion, along with a more
>> detailed hex based combat replacement. As was pointed out, Traveller is
>> nothing if not modular. If you don't like the basic system, then replace it
>> lateckr with our advanced system, or, in the meantime, with FF&S/Brilliant
>> Lances.

        The ease of integrating FF&S into T4 is my concern. One of the
reasons I'm so hot about getting compatible, scaleable rules into T4 is so
everybody can exchange designs. But if I'm using FF&S & somebody else is
using a slightly different version of FF&S and somebody else is using CT/HG,
that becomes more difficult. Looking back over the TML, and looking at my
Web pages and others', the two most popular things for sharing are Ships,
Ships, and occasionally adventure ideas or equipment.

        I'd be interested in how you see expanding CT/HG design rules into a
*compatible* detailed set. Especially since CT and HG are themselves
somewhat inconsistent to my eyes. At least, from memory. It's been years,
but I do remember trying to duplicate CT designs with HG (so I could draw
deckplans), and not getting the same results ...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 20:52:33 -0600
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #32

At 06:25 pm 6/1/96 BST-1, aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton) wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <199605311817.OAA07414@NS.MPGN.COM>
>> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:52:07
>> -0600 Subject: Spacecraft Design
>>  
>> I volunteer as much time as I have available to help, outside of grad
>> school and my real job (keeping the Milstar comsat working). In fact, I
>> have three years' worth of accumulated leave, if needed. I'm not asking for
>> anything in return ... not money, not credit, not free products, not
>> thanks, nothing. I just want the new Traveller to be something I'm willing
>> to spend money on. And something with spacecraft based on 20+year old rules
>> is not it.
>
>Imperium Games - HIRE THIS MAN *NOW*!

        NO DON'T HIRE ME!! Save your finances to keep Traveller going. But I
would like to help for free... (PS: Thanks for the vote of confidence
anyway, Andrew!)

>> I realize you have your own vision of where Traveller should go. It is Marc
>> Miller's Traveller, literally, and he can mold it to his own vision. But
>> it's not a religion, it's a business. If that vision doesn't match up with
>> what others want, they're customers not believers, and they won't follow.
>> And that's what scares me. If this flops, there won't be an opportunity to
>> turn around and try again. Traveller will be dead except in the hearts of
>> those who've "kept the flame."
>
>Remember: The customer is always right.

        The question I suspect they're facing is _which_ customer is right:
those who could care less about the physics of lasers at space combat
ranges, or those who start talking about Planck's Constant when arguing
about sensor performance. Face it, T4 _has_ to attract new customers to
survive. Many of those customers will be from the "MTV/Nintendo" group who
wouldn't understand why spacecraft move differently than airplanes anyway.
And there are the existing fans who are concentrating much more on the
"feel" of the game than the details. I think you can satisfy all of them
with the right system.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 1996 21:56:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Getting T4 (Canadians read MMT) into the stores

At 08:04 PM 6/1/96 -0400, Joe Walsh wrote:
>Subject: Getting T4 into the stores
>
>I've been pondering about getting T4 into as many stores as possible.  A 
>lot of suggestions have been put forth, but it sounds like most people 
>have many contacts in many game stores in their area.  My situation is a 
>bit different.  I've only lived here for a few years, so I don't have the 
>advantage I would if I were still in northern CA, where I grew up.

I have a similar problem.  I live in South Mississippi.  Down here all we
have are a few stores and even fewer gamers.  I've had a notice up in the
main RPG store down here for three weeks trying to get an RPG group going,
but no one has responded yet.  Most of the folks down here can't think about
anything more than the beach, the horse, or the auto races.  Redneck heaven. :)

>In addition, where I live (northeastern Illinois), there aren't a whole 
>lot of RPG stores (Games+ is the only one I know of in Lake County).  
... stuff snippeted...
>chance lies with the independently owned comic book shops.  Perhaps I 
>should just go in and talk to the owner, eh?  I don't know these people, 
>though.  Are they going to listen to me?

I went in (before IG began taking part on the list) and asked both of the
two main shops down here if they had any promo literature on the New
Traveller.  The response, in both cases:  "Oh, you haven't heard that GDW,
the company that makes Traveller, went out of business.?"

I explained to both of them that IG and Marc had gained the rights and were
promising that Trav would not die, but all I got out of either of them was a
slightly raised eyebrow (over a glazed eye) and a non-committal grunt of
"Oh."  I'm all for helping T4 (sorry Canadians, read that MMT) succeed, but
I'm like you, only I think I'm worse. IIRC you at least have a current
gaming group.  I, on the other hand, spend my Trav time coming up with great
adventure ideas, but never write them out cause I have no group (sniff,
sniff).  I've been working off and on on a book since we moved down here,
but even there I've run into problems (mainly the putting off of the TNE era).

>Is anyone else in a situation similar to mine?  What are your plans?  Any 
>recommendations?

I'm going to do the only thing I know to do.  I'm going to go in to both of
the stores and ask them to carry the new Trav.  And when it comes out, and
I've had a bit of time to learn the system, I'm going to seek out a playing
group more actively.  Hopefully this will spread the fires a bit, but I'm
not too sure.


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 01 Jun 1996 22:57:26 GMT
Subject: Re: Predesigned Ships, Game Systems, and Miniatures

About six years ago I ran the MegaTraveller Referees' Exchange, providing
at-cost copies of source material from my library (and waiving charges in
exchange for material).

I discovered that there were a few prolific designers out there, but that
most referees just wanted to get some predesigned equipment (or worlds, or
adventures, or...).

The most popular ships were commonly encountered types, well-designed, had
vivid descriptions, and exterior drawings and/or deckplans.   (Strangely,
ships designed with varient rules weren't popular, even when they had cool
deckplans and good descriptions.)  

This is probably painfully self-evident to Imperium Games (being
professionals and all that) but it was a surprise to me.  After all, my
players loved getting into the guts of everything.  (When was the last time
you had a player start working out black-body calculations to prove a point
about sensor performance?  Or do an energy analysis of a planetary ecosystem
to show that that large carnivore attacking her needed more nutrition than
the occassional traveller to survive?)

Anyway, the obvious solution to the 'which system' debate is for someone to
use FF&S (or something similar) to create the basic CT-style ship components.
 Of course, these will have to be over-engineered a bit so that they always
work together, but that shouldn't be a problem to someone that knows FF&S. 
These basic components, and the rules to use them, would be included in the
basic T4 book, along with a storytelling-style combat resolution system.

The full FF&S-style design system, included alternate technologies, could
then be released later but would be totally compatible with the basic system.
 If IG decides that the FF&S market is too small, they could publish the
system in JTAS.

To stop a custom-designed ship from having all the advantages over one built
of standard modules, I would rule (in my game) that non-standard modules
require special construction at a starport, and thus repairs to a custom ship
cost _lots_ more.  So the hotshot engineer can customize the group's
merchant, but then she'll spend a lot of time tinkering with the engines -
which makes for great adventure hooks.  


I think a tactical space game is, at some point, essential.  Of all the
systems (Book 2, Mayday, High Guard, MT, TNE, BL, and BR) I preferred
Brilliant Lances, once I figured the rules out.  (Very poorly explained, but
they do make sense eventually).  I think this was mainly because I was always
having to make trade-off decisions (when to go active, when to burn...), and
also because the feel was more realistic (especially facing affecting what
systems get damaged, and damage working its way inside past armour).  

However, even though I like playing Brilliant Lances (with miniatures of
course) I wouldn't use it if I had more than a couple of ships to control. 
Too many decisions at that level.  Battle Rider seems to do that job OK, but
I haven't had enough experience to offer a firm opinion.   I do like the way
Brilliant Lances and Battle Rider seem to get the same resolutions - but
again I haven't tested that thoroughly.

In general, I think we will need/evolve three levels of combat system:

(a) A simple storytelling system giving vivid descriptions and quick results.
(b) A boardgame-style system for playing out the conflict.
(c) A detailed boardgame/miniatures ruleset for those who want to fight in
detail.

Ideally, all of these should fit together, but only the simplest needs to be
in the basic game.

One of the ideas I've been playing with is creating a flowchart for a battle,
much like the one in JTAS #3 for asteroid mining.  At each step the players
would make a simple choice, and that choice plus a dice throw would dictate
what happened next.  I'd probably need a way of creating a unique flowchart
for each battle, as well as a library of vivid descriptions to spice it up. 
I think that in situations where I'd use this (mainly non-military players)
I'd have all routes lead to the same general result, but let the players
decisions influence their fates.  (Eg. are they wounded?  Do they get loot? 
Are they heroes?  Have they made an enemy?  Saved a friend?  Rescued some
children trapped in a burning school?)  


On a slightly different note, one of the things I've found helpful for
introducing new players to the hobby is miniatures.  Many kids nowadays thing
that Magic and Nintendo are role-playing games because they have the same
plot elements (magic, swords, monsters...)!  The miniatures provide visual
cues to a generation raised on tv and videogames.  I also put some effort
into preparing colour building plans, ship plans, and so on, which further
increases their enjoyment.  After a few games they don't need the props as
much, but it gets them over the hump.  (I do this at work - I teach high
school.)

------------------------------

From: uucp@uu2.psi.com
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Subject: [none]

Subject: UUCP job killed
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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 676
X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas
X-Comment: Traveller Mailing List

			    TRAVELLER Digest 676

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Gauss weapons/Mass drivers (was logistics)
	by shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
  2) rec.tml.firearms
	by prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
  3) Bullet Sprayers
	by prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
  4) RESULTS OF SURVEY ON FUTURE OF TML/XTML
	by Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
  5) Jimv's Primer on Traveller
	by anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
  6) Cost'o'livin'
	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
  7) New Trav
	by Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
  8) Starport confusion
	by henric.ahlrot@gdc.stud.gu.se (Henric Ahlrot)

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 30 Apr 96 11:33:34 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Gauss weapons/Mass drivers (was logistics)
Message-ID: <N3N8mD1w165w@krypton.rain.com>

Several people seem to think that ammo for gauss weapons and mass
drivers would be complex and hard to manufacture. One cited FF&S.
I don't have FF&S but I have talked with folks who work with the real
thing (at Lawrence Livermore Labs).

While it's true that you can't just take a random hunk of metal and
shape it to produce a round, it won't be *that* much harder except for
the hypervelocity weapons, where you have problems with the round
*flowing* under its own weight.

FF&S may be using "fancy" rounds. But a gauss rifle that fires solid
"needles" at 5000 fps or so is easily doable with "near future" tech.
And making it able to work with a variety of metals isn't much harder.

Yes, you can magnetically accelerate *non-ferrous* metals. It just
requires a *changing field, not a steady one. And in fact, the "rail
gun" type setup is actually quite insensitive to what the projectile is
made of. It just has to be conductive.

So for this type of "gauss rifle" you could use *current* tech to put
"in the field" ammo manufacture into the back of a small van! Give that
you need some tools and the like for the unit armorer to do maintenance
on weapons anyway, having this as part of a support vehicle at the
company (or lower) level isn't *that* much of a stretch.

All it amounts to is something for chopping metal up into workable size
chunks, and then forcing the chunks thru wire drawing dies. Then the
pieces of wire get die formed into rounds. Sure, it's crude. and you
could improve it in several different ways. But it'd *work*, and it'd
be pretty rugged.

For the bigger mass drivers, things get a bit more complicated, I
agree. Then again, anything above squad support weapons is probably
better as energy/plasma weapons, except where you need indirect fire
weapons. And most current uses of *those* are better served by
ortillery.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 12:11:44 -0500
From: prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: rec.tml.firearms
Message-ID: <199605011711.MAA12405@marlin.gulf.net>

One vote to terminate de bullet sprayer M-249 vs M-242 vs M-240 debate.

Conviently after I posted about it.  O Well  :->


------------------------------

From: st670@Jetson.UH.EDU (Ramos-Tavener, Doyle Wayne)
Date: Sat, 01 Jun 1996 22:39:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Virus Redux Starship Factory

I hate to interupt the current debate(I kind of like it actually), But I had
a couple of questions about the TNE campaign as it pertains to certain
scenarios. Breifly, my players have played out the majority of the RC
adventures. Right now I am sending them through the _the Guilded Lily_.

*WARNING* Published scenario secrets follow. Read no further if you are a
player!

The Guilded Lily states that there is a Virus Starshp factory in operation
on Ebekhar (1628) Diaspora. Since Parts two and three of Virus Redux will
presumably never appear (at least not for two to three years), I took a look
a the UPP. Though the world has a high populace, it lacks most of the other
presumed requirements for such an installation (based on my presumptions, at
least). Thus I have several questions for members of the list.

*The presence of an automated starship factory presumes there being an 'A'
Starport also present, correct?

*The presence of same require a high enough tech lvl to sustain it, correct?
(Ebekhar had a Pre-collapse TL of 9, it now has a 7)

*Is it possible that the Virus factory is orbital, or that it is a huge
starship in and of itself? Is there anything like this mentioned in pre-TNE
materials?

*Any suggestions (besides "Figure it out yourself.")

thanks 

Doyle


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #37
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 2 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 038

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. A Ship Design System Followup
         2. A Ship Design System
         3. FF&S Light Challenge
         4. [none]
         5. Re: Existing Ship Designs
         6. digest format
         7. unsubscribe
         8. Re: A Ship Design System Followup
         9. Re: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)
        10. Re: A Ship Design System Followup
        11. Which craft design to use?
        12. How many turrets?
        13. Twilight's Fate?
        14. Re: A Ship Design System Followup

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 96 01:51:37 -0600
Subject: A Ship Design System Followup

This refers to my previous post proposing 'Simple Ship Design'

Folks, I haven't got all these tables completed.  That's something for
Don to do..or maybe for us to do here. <g> 

Right now the tables consist, in most cases, of 1 entry..the 1 entry I
used to produce my example..and that entry is more a skeleton than a
complete body. Here's an example...

        The Bridge Package Table 

        Volume    Pwr Req   Crew   Cost
       in cub M    in MW    Req   in Mcr
Pack1    168        8.0      2     18.0

[probably should use tons instead of cubic meters??]


Pack1 consists of (at the tech level you've chosen):

  Standard Comm package:    System Radio
                            Laser Tightbeam
                            
  Standard Sensor pack:     Passive EMS Interstellar
                            Active EMS Far Orbit              

  Computer:     1/bis
                4 bridge consoles
  
  Standard Life Support Control
  
  Standard Security Control
  
  Standard Gravtics Control    
  
  Flight Control (for Maneuver and Jump)
      Pilot Station
  
      Co-Pilot Station
  
  Astrogation Table
- -----------------------------------------------------------  

Does this give you an idea of what I mean by a Package?  

The Jump Drives would be discrete units designed to boost a given
volume into jump space.

Maneuver Drives would also be a discrete unit based on standard
volume.

Power Generators (Fusion Plants really) would be standard sized units
that produce a standard power out and use a standard amount of
fuel/hr.  I based mine on a standard 6 (2x2x1.5) cubic meter size
using cold fusion to generate 4MW, admittedly this didn't come from
any canonical source.

The details could be designed down to as fine a point as you want. 
The data could be presented on a level not much more detailed than CT. 
It could also be *very* detailed.

Ok, does this make sense to anybody?  Is this too complicated? To
simple?  Should I just go back to my star systems and forget this?

Eris  
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 96 01:01:12 -0600
Subject: A Ship Design System

I've been waiting for somebody to present an actual suggestion for an
improved ship design process.  Nobody has, so I will.  I'm really
going to hang myself out here, so be kind. <g>

I'm not a "gearhead", especially, when it comes to ship design.
Actually, my area of interest is star systems and I'd rather be
working on that, but this has so captured my attention that I'm going
to get squat done until I get this out of the way.

I don't present this process as *the* way to go.  All I want to do is
stimulate some thought about the process.  Something detailed enough
to please the FF&S people, but easy enough for the rest of us.

What I'm proposing is to create ships from standard parts that can be
picked from tables and plugged together.   This doesn't differ much
from the FF&S lite concept, but I think my pieces  are less finely
grained.  I'm also coming at this from a CT/HG/MT direction rather
than FF&S.

                        Simple Ship Design

1.  Set Ship's main function:  Scout, Merchant, Combat, etc.

2.  Decide base tech level

3.  Choose standard hull size (increments of 100 Tons).

4.  Pick Bridge Package from Bridge Table.
       (Each Bridge Package includes basic controls, equipment &
        workspace for basic Command and Control functions:  Comm,
        Sensors, Computer, Security, Maneuver, Jump, &
        Astrogation.)

5.  Optional Bridge additions:
    a.  Communications
    b.  Sensors
    c.  Computer
    d.  Security
    e.  Screens
    f.  Aux controls

6.  Pick Engineering Package from Engineering Table    
       (Each Engineering Package includes basic controls &
        workspace for power generation, maneuver drive, jump
        drive, & a basic repair shop.)

7.  Optional Engineering additions:
    a.  Machine Shop
    b.  Electronic Shop
    c.  Weapons Shop
    d.  Gravtics Shop
  
8.  Jump Drive
    a.  Pick Jump Drive for the J factor desired and for the hull
        size from the Jump Drive Table.
    b.  Volume of fuel needed for 1 jump = (Vol of Jump Drive) * 5       


9.  Maneuver Drive
    a.  Pick Maneuver Drive for the G factor desired and for the
        hull size from the Maneuver Drive Table.    
    
10. Install Weapons Systems from Weapon Tables.
        (I'm not going to detail this here. Surfice it to say
         we're talking about standard plug in weapons like in the
         example.)
        
        
11. Install Defensive Systems from Tables
        (Same as with Weapons.  The tables would have plug in
         systems.)


12. Pick number of standard Accommodations from Accom Table.
    a.  Low Berths
    b.  Bunks
    c.  Small Staterooms
    d.  Large Staterooms
    e.  Commons Areas

13. Gravity Control
    a.  GVOL = Sum of volumes under gravity control
    b.  Look up Grav Ctrl factors P and C from Gravtic Table
    c.  Calculate Power required = GVOL*P
    d.  Calculate Cost = GVOL*C

14. Life Support
    a.  LVOL = Sum of volumes under gravity control
    b.  Look up Life Support factors P and C from LF Table
    c.  Calculate Life Support power required = LVOL*P
    d.  Calculate Life Support cost = LVOL*C
        
15. Power System
    a.  PwrReq = (Sum of power required)*1.5 for safety
    b.  Add enough standard Generators to exceed PwrReq, look on
        Power Systems Table
    c.  This is PwrAvail

16. Fuel for Maneuver Drive, Weapons and Ship Systems
    a.  How many weeks of fuel?
    b.  (fuel/hr from Power Systems Table)*PwrAvail*Weeks*168
    
17. Determine current volume

18. Misc
    a.  Increased Compartmentalization: +1% current volume
    b.  Streamlining for atmospheric flight: +1% current volume
    c.  Bracing for landing on planets: +1% current volume

19. Cargo Space
    a.  Total current volume
    b.  Cargo = ((Hull Size)*14) - current volume
        (This is the cubic meters of cargo space to figure the
         tons divide this number by 14.)

20. Fill out a Standard Ship Form.


And here's an example I built with the process...

200 Ton Far Trader
    2800 cubic meters

             Ship    Grav  Life   Pwr   Crew
Component    Volume  Ctrl  Supp   Req   Req    Cost
- ------------------------------------------------------
Bridge Pk1    168     168   168   8.0    2     18.0
 Sensor A1     14       0     0   2.0    0      4.0
Eng. Pk1      168     168   168   4.0    1      8.0
 Jump 2-TA     84       0     0   0.0    0     18.0
 1xJp Fuel    420       0     0   0.0    0      0.0
 Man. 1-TA     56       0     0   0.0    0    280.0
P4 Laser       28      28    28  16.0    1      0.4
M2 Missle Bay  28      28    28   0.5    1      0.5
10 Sm Strms   280     280   280   0.0    0      0.4
4 Lg Strms    252     252   252   0.0    1      1.6
Commons        84      84    84   0.0    0      0.6
Tot Grav Ctrl        1008*.005    5.1    0     10.1
Tot Lif Supp         1008*.01    10.0    0     10.1

Power Req            45.6*1.5= 68.4
12 Std Fusion
       2T-4MW  72       0     0  72.0    0      3.6
 4wk Fuel     145       0     0   0.0    0      0.0
- ------------------------------------------------------
             1823
Bracing (1%)   18
Support (1%)   18
Cargo Hole    941

[Discussion in a follow up message...]

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 00:57:36 -0600
Subject: FF&S Light Challenge

        Since I've been a rather vocal proponent recently of a better design
system than merely CT/HG, spouting off about the benefits of an "FF&S
Light"-type system for both the nongearheads and gearheads alike, somebody
challenged me to put my money (and effort) where my mouth is: Develop a
draft of FF&S Light and submit it as an unsolicited proposal to Imperium
Games, to see what they say.

        Well, it would be rather presumptuous of me to try to do this on my
own. Especially since somebody else first came up with the idea. Instead,
I'm volunteering to act as a kind of coordinator. I've already got a rough
draft, and I'm asking everybody to tear into what I've got. If we can all
come up with a design sequence that satisfies everybody, we can only win.
Gearheads: look at what I've got, see if it makes sense. Non-gearheads,
especially those yearning for something as simple as Book2/High Guard, shred
into it. Rational criticism is always welcome.

        The idea here is to provide something as simple as CT/HG while still
remaining compatible with a detailed advanced system to be published later.

        Note that IG has NOT approached me and asked for this, although Don
Perrin has publicly asked about what is out there, for possible consideration.

A few requirements I've set myself
   1. Should come damn close to CT/HG in simplicity. I've got an initial
goal of no 
      more than 10% more steps or calculations. I don't know how doable this is,
      but it's a starting point.
   2. Straightline design sequence -- no flipping back and forth. Each step
      should rely only on information already recorded and information
      presented in the step itself.
   3. Mathematically simple -- Beyond adding up the results of each step, 
      avoid complex equations wherever possible. Simple tables are 
      preferred, but a _FEW_ straightforward addition/subtraction or 
      multiplication steps are permitted.
   4. Based on FF&S, and fully compatible with it.
   5. Where needed, improve on FF&S.
      Capture those tweaks and make sure we provide them as inputs to the 
      detailed design sequence supplement
   6. The rules should provide 
      a. Thruster plates or equivalent low-fuel reactionless drives for those 
         who like the feel in CT and MT.
      b. "Realistic" drives, especially for those like me who like the
tradeoffs 
         limited maneuver fuel forces into combat.
   7. Perhaps provide both CT/MT style anti-gravity (my favorite) and TNE style
      contragravity?

        I've started updating the rough outline I have on my Web page. Check
it out, and respond asap! I think we can get this done and near-finalized in
a few weeks. The only changes needed then would be where the basic rules for
combat, etc. change.

        Even if Imperium Games decides not to go with this kind of system,
it'll provide a welcome resource for the people who want it.

        What I've got so far is at

        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html

        There are already some glitches there that I need to fix, but it'll
give us a starting place.

Once again, I'd like to emphasize this is not sponsored or condoned by
Imperium Games. I'm just out acting on my own like a loose cannon, hoping to
have some impact. Who knows, if we're really good, we'll have sped up the
release of both the basic rules AND the advanced design supplement.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 00:31:48 -0700
Subject: [none]

>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
>Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:19:51 -0600

>        AND! Imperium Games will have a stack of starships ALREADY DESIGNED!
>That's what they're asking for, right? Spend an hour browsing the web sites
>and you'll have scores of ships. A quick e-mail to the author and you'll
>have permission to publish.

Why would people buy ship designs that are already available free on the net?


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 01:52:34 -0600
Subject: Re: Existing Ship Designs

At 12:31 am 6/2/96 -0700, sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin) wrote:
>>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
>>Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:19:51 -0600
>
>>        AND! Imperium Games will have a stack of starships ALREADY DESIGNED!
>>That's what they're asking for, right? Spend an hour browsing the web sites
>>and you'll have scores of ships. A quick e-mail to the author and you'll
>>have permission to publish.
>
>Why would people buy ship designs that are already available free on the net?

        1. Not everybody has Web or even Internet access. How many people
are subscribed to the mailing lists, vs. how many are playing Traveller?

        2. No matter the final design system, the existing Web designs will
need at least some tweaking. Even if the gearheads had won a devastating
victory months ago, when the idea of T4 was first broached, the detailed
design rules are going to be different from FF&S to some degree. The core
rules are changing, and the designs have to reflect that. But it's easier to
start with something and modify it than to start from scratch.

        3. Very few of the posted Web designs have fancy artwork, deckplans,
nice printing, adventure nuggets, etc. IG can and probably will be adding
quite a bit of value to whatever they publish.

        4. Because there will be more in the supplement than just the
existing Web designs -- this was merely a suggestion to help pad the book out.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Paragon369@aol.com
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 03:58:04 -0400
Subject: digest format

digest format

------------------------------

From: Paragon369@aol.com
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 03:58:05 -0400
Subject: unsubscribe

unsubscribe

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 02:03:55 -0600
Subject: Re: A Ship Design System Followup

At 01:51 am 6/2/96 -0600, ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch) wrote:

>Ok, does this make sense to anybody?  Is this too complicated? To
>simple?  Should I just go back to my star systems and forget this?

        No, don't! Please stay involved! This is useful stuff. Just a few
comments:

        You talk about using discrete packages for things like power, etc.,
just increasing the number of packages to get the desired output. 

>Power Generators (Fusion Plants really) would be standard sized units
>that produce a standard power out and use a standard amount of
>fuel/hr.  I based mine on a standard 6 (2x2x1.5) cubic meter size
>using cold fusion to generate 4MW, admittedly this didn't come from
>any canonical source.

        I don't think this is very "realistic" way that a starship designer
would work, given economies of scale. That is, one power plant producing
twice as much power as another would be smaller and less expensive than
simply two of the lesser powerplants. A better idea would be simply a table
of different-sized power plants, for example 5MW, 10MW, 25MW, 50MW, 75MW,
100MW, etc. The 100MW plant will be smaller, more efficient and more
reliable than twenty-five 4MW power plants. The designer can then either
pick the one plant closest to his/her needs, or perhaps multiple power
plants. For example: if I need 87.5MW to run my ship, I can either go with
the 100MW power plant, and have a little excess capacity, or I can install a
75MW, a 10MW and a 5MW. Whichever combination took less volume and cost less.

PS:
>I've been waiting for somebody to present an actual suggestion for an
>improved ship design process.  Nobody has, so I will.  I'm really
>going to hang myself out here, so be kind. <g>

        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html

        Take a look at it, and let me know how you'd change it.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 01:04:57 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Crew Sizes (more sparks for Ship Design!)

On Fri, 31 May 1996 BTRC@aol.com wrote:

> missile sub really *need* more than someone to man the sensors and someone to
> steer or do other misc. chores (say 3 men per shift)? Everything else could
> be automated. Do you have to have the captain relay orders to the first
> officer, who relays it to someone else, who actually does the work?
 One musen't forget the nuclear or conventional power plant needing alot
of maintinance.
 Course, if it was a short duration sub it woulden't be a problem, but
current 6mo boomer cruises need engineering crew.

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 96 04:09:54 -0600
Subject: Re: A Ship Design System Followup

David, 

It's well after 3am here, man are we night owls! <g>

On 06/02/96 at 02:03 AM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:

>>Ok, does this make sense to anybody?  Is this too complicated? To
>>simple?  Should I just go back to my star systems and forget this?

>        No, don't! Please stay involved! This is useful stuff.

Ok, I'll try, but no more tonight! <g>

> Just a few comments:

>        You talk about using discrete packages for things like power,
>etc., just increasing the number of packages to get the desired
>output. 

>That is, one power plant producing twice as much power as
>another would be smaller and less expensive than simply two of
>the lesser powerplants.

Yes, I know my example was based on something I happened to have at
hand. A better idea...

>...A better idea would be simply a table of different-sized
>power plants, for example 5MW, 10MW, 25MW, 50MW, 75MW, 100MW,
>etc...The designer can then either pick the one plant closest to
>his/her needs, or perhaps multiple power plants.

Of course.  <g> The Johnson/Lewis 2T-4MW is but one model that would
be available on a table.  I'm with you on larger size models, but not
too many, or you lose the economy of
*manufacturing* scale!  One or two at the 4 to 8 level, the 30 to 40
level and the 100 to 200 level, maybe.  Power Plant designs can be
created and published like anything else.

Now the but...

1.  My ship is being built on Kittle Prime by Drise and Son,
Shipbuilders.  I want to built inexpensively, so they are using as
many "off the shelf" parts as possible.  They happen to have 40, 4MW
generators in stock left over from some system boat work they were
doing for the local navy and so...<g>

2.  Seriously, I visualize Traveller ships to be a good bit like steam
ships early this century.  All large steam ships had multiple
boilers..why?  So one could be taken down for service or repair and
still have 3/4, 1/2 power.  Warships, especially, would want
redundancy.

>need 87.5MW to run my ship, I can either go with the 100MW power
>plant, and have a little excess capacity, or I can install a 75MW, a
>10MW and a 5MW. Whichever combination took less volume and cost less.

I'd try to get ship designers to avoid that if possible.  I think 3 to
6 "boilers" of the same model would be better:  easier to repair;
interchangeable parts; less training/maintenance overhead for the
engineer.

>PS:
>>I've been waiting for somebody to present an actual suggestion for an
>>improved ship design process.  Nobody has, so I will.  I'm really
>>going to hang myself out here, so be kind. <g>

>        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSL

>        Take a look at it, and let me know how you'd change it.

You've added a *lot* since I dropped by last week!  <g> I dled all
your pages tonight..this morning so I can study them off line.  

Two things to think about...

First, I think some of your systems might be too finely grained. Group
*everything* needed for a 3 or 4 standard bridges together and make
that a plug in.  Let folks customize by adding on enhanced
controls/computers/sensors as a more advanced process. It looks like
you're doing that for weapon systems already.

Second, we always pick the hull size & configuration first..what if we
didn't?  What if we did it backwards:  

1. picked out all the systems that go into the ship

2. put in a plant to power them

3. put in a maneuver drive 

4. put in tanks for the fuel

6. put in a jump drive and fuel for it

5. put in a minimum cargo area

6. added it all up and picked the next biggest hull

Would that be easier for everybody than having to keep fiddling trying
to fit everything in a 800ton hull?

I can't do anymore tonight! 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 02 Jun 96 06:53:17 EDT
Subject: Which craft design to use?

>> I agree with Tommy on this one. I do not think that I will go back to the CT
ship design. I will continue to use FFS in its present or (some modified) form.
I do not like the too simple combat system of CT. I prefer (as do my players)
the hex grid combat. <<

And I prefer the MT design I built into my software. For people like us, the
testing ground will be how well our preferred designs fit into the new rules.

After all, I've been running CT with MT ships and vehicles for nearly ten years
without any particular trouble...

I think, as always, we'll all end up mix'n'matching rules we like fron the new
with rules we wanna keep from the old. The first timers will probably prefer a
rather simple base rule system.

HWF


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 02 Jun 96 06:53:19 EDT
Subject: How many turrets?

>> "Hey ref, how many lasers has this thing got?"

"003 batt 2 bear 2."

"3 turrets eh?"

"No, factor 3."

"Which is?"

"Wait until I calculate back from the rules."  <<

<chuckle> Yeah, I had this problem, which is why I modified my design software
to list the selected turrets, bays, etc as well as printing the combat info
grid.


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 02 Jun 96 06:53:22 EDT
Subject: Twilight's Fate?

Loren quoth:

>>  Tantalus...same folks who own Twilight: 2000, Merc: 2000, 2300 AD, and this
very mailing list. <<

A bit off the subject, but is there an indication of T2K's fate? Will it, too,
rise again? We play it now'n'again as a break from Traveller.

BTW, I think those inclined to personal abuse should can it. OK, some stuff you
like and some you don't. But be constructive or bugger off. We just got these
nice folks over to talk to us about what we'd like for Christmas. Don't flame
them away again.

HWF


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 04:58:31 -0600
Subject: Re: A Ship Design System Followup

At 04:09 am 6/2/96 -0600, ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch) wrote:
>David, 
>
>It's well after 3am here, man are we night owls! <g>

        Unfortunately, I've got a cold that's keeping me awake, or I'd be
asleep by now.

>>...A better idea would be simply a table of different-sized
>>power plants, for example 5MW, 10MW, 25MW, 50MW, 75MW, 100MW,
>>etc...The designer can then either pick the one plant closest to
>>his/her needs, or perhaps multiple power plants.
>
>Of course.  <g> The Johnson/Lewis 2T-4MW is but one model that would
>be available on a table.  I'm with you on larger size models, but not
>too many, or you lose the economy of
>*manufacturing* scale!  One or two at the 4 to 8 level, the 30 to 40
>level and the 100 to 200 level, maybe.  Power Plant designs can be
>created and published like anything else.

        True. Although I'd probably make a few more steps in the chart. And
for the larger systems, you're not really talking the economy of
manufacturing scale ... just the economy of not having to design, test and
qualify a brand-new design. A customer comes in looking for the 1500MW power
plant, you call up the plans in the computer and set the factory humming.

>2.  Seriously, I visualize Traveller ships to be a good bit like steam
>ships early this century.  All large steam ships had multiple
>boilers..why?  So one could be taken down for service or repair and
>still have 3/4, 1/2 power.  Warships, especially, would want
>redundancy.

        This is true, too. Traveller has always assumed a power plant can be
partially damaged and still work. I think it's more likely that anything
beyond superficial damage will shut it down, so you'd probably need multiple
power plants. There's a tradeoff here -- a warship will want more
independent units for battle damage, etc. while a merchant will want only a
few, to cut down cost and increase cargo capacity.

        The problem with all this is it's more detail than the target
audience really wants. Remember, part of the FF&S Light target audience is
the guy who yearns for the Book 2 days, but wants to be compatible with others.

>>need 87.5MW to run my ship, I can either go with the 100MW power
>>plant, and have a little excess capacity, or I can install a 75MW, a
>>10MW and a 5MW. Whichever combination took less volume and cost less.
>
>I'd try to get ship designers to avoid that if possible.  I think 3 to
>6 "boilers" of the same model would be better:  easier to repair;
>interchangeable parts; less training/maintenance overhead for the
>engineer.

        Same as above.

>>        http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSL
>
>>        Take a look at it, and let me know how you'd change it.
>
>You've added a *lot* since I dropped by last week!  <g> I dled all
>your pages tonight..this morning so I can study them off line.  

        Bad news ... I just finished uploading even more updates (can't sleep!).

>Two things to think about...
>
>First, I think some of your systems might be too finely grained. Group
>*everything* needed for a 3 or 4 standard bridges together and make
>that a plug in.  Let folks customize by adding on enhanced
>controls/computers/sensors as a more advanced process. It looks like
>you're doing that for weapon systems already.

        That's basically what I'm doing with the electronics already --
sensors, comm, computers, etc. all in one package. But the rest of the
bridge (number of workstations) is going to depend on crew size.

>Second, we always pick the hull size & configuration first..what if we
>didn't?  What if we did it backwards:  
>
>1. picked out all the systems that go into the ship
>
>2. put in a plant to power them
>
>3. put in a maneuver drive 
>
>4. put in tanks for the fuel
>
>6. put in a jump drive and fuel for it
>
>5. put in a minimum cargo area
>
>6. added it all up and picked the next biggest hull
>
        I've deliberately designed the worksheet so you can work it in any
order you want. But how are you going to size the maneuver drive and the
jump drive without already knowing the ship displacement?

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #38
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 2 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 039

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Wasted adventure ideas
         2. Re: FF&S Light Challenge
         3. Re: Predesigned Ships, Game Systems, and Miniatures
         4. Linear Ship Design
         5. Re: FF&S Light Challenge
         6. Re: Predesigned Ships, Game Systems, and Miniatures
         7. Re: Linear Ship Design
         8. Re: your mail
         9. Re: Getting T4 (Canadians read MMT) into the stores
        10. Re: Changes to systems
        11. Re: FF&S Light Challenge
        12. Twilight: 2000
        13. Universal Ship Profile suggestion
        14. Starship Design

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 23:30:18 
Subject: Re: Wasted adventure ideas

On Jun 1, Paul Walker wrote:

> >Subject: Getting T4 into the stores
> >
> I'm like you, only I think I'm worse. IIRC you at least have a current
> gaming group.  I, on the other hand, spend my Trav time coming up with great
> adventure ideas, but never write them out cause I have no group (sniff,
> sniff).

Don't waste them, there are many harried refs on the list who love to see
new and different adventure ideas, not to mention marvel at others'
imagination. Hmm, maybe I am the only lazy one, but I have nick.. umm
integrated a number of adventures posted to the TML into my current game. 
It really helps to flesh things out.

BFN,
James Dempsey
- ---------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 08:52:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: FF&S Light Challenge

On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

>         The idea here is to provide something as simple as CT/HG while still
> remaining compatible with a detailed advanced system to be published later.

That sounds good to me.  I've examined your system-under-construction on 
your web page, and what you have there has merit.  But (you knew that was 
coming, didn't you?:) it still seems too complicated for a basic system.  
Perhaps I am reading it wrong.  Your system seems to have one overall 
design checklist, then another checklist for each major component (hull, 
jump drive, maneuver drive, crew, etc.).  

Isn't it possible to boil it down to a single, 16-item checklist 
supported by a single table for each design component?  I'd rather not 
worry about what tech level my hull is designed at, what G acceleration 
it can take, etc.  I realize there are compatability issues involved 
here, but why not make those choices for people?  If 6G is the max 
acceleration any ship is capable of under this system (for example), then 
the basic system should have a table of hulls, and each hull should have 
the capability of doing 6G factored into its statistics.  Sure, they're not 
going to get a good deal on that hull if it is for a ship that only does 
1G.  But it will still be compatable with the full-up system, while 
retaining simplicity of design.

Similarly, design decisions could be made for all components.  Get them 
all down to a single table for each, just like in the Book 2 rules, and I 
think you'll have a winner.  Just explicitly state which design decisions 
have been made, so that it will indeed be possible to design those same 
items under the full system to ensure compatability.

Do you see where I'm going, or am I not making sense?


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 09:17:44 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Predesigned Ships, Game Systems, and Miniatures

On 1 Jun 1996, Rob Prior wrote:

> Anyway, the obvious solution to the 'which system' debate is for someone to
> use FF&S (or something similar) to create the basic CT-style ship components.
>  Of course, these will have to be over-engineered a bit so that they always
> work together, but that shouldn't be a problem to someone that knows FF&S. 

Yes!  This is what I advocated in my previous post.  Provide basic 
components in a few charts, with notes that they are of such-and-such 
configuration, and this will solve the compatability issue.  Sure, 
provide all the statistics but don't require the user to make design 
decisions on each statistic.  For example:

Standard Hulls Table

Tons	Main	Drives	Max. Accel.	Configuration	MCr	Time
100	85	15	2G		Needle		2	9
100	75	25	4G		Wedge		3	9
200	185	15	1G		Sphere		8	11
200	175	25	2G		Cylinder	9	11
...etc...

Include some basic configurations.  Additional ones could be included in 
a supplement, in JTAS, or whatever.  This sort of table would provide all 
the information required to reconstruct the exact same thing under the 
full system, with the same result in time, cost, etc.  Obviously, I 
didn't include everything (ie, armor) in the above table, but it could be 
done (I just took the table in Book 2, and modified it based on what is 
required for a full-up system, and also what sort of drive compartment 
size is required to fit a standard drive that would allow the given-sized 
hull to achieve the acceleration given as the maximum).  A gearhead could 
do a much better job of constructing such a table, I know.  This is just 
a quick-n-dirty example for illustration. 


> These basic components, and the rules to use them, would be included in the
> basic T4 book, along with a storytelling-style combat resolution system.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is a "storytelling-style combat resolution 
system?"  Any resemblence to the Book 2 system?


> To stop a custom-designed ship from having all the advantages over one built
> of standard modules, I would rule (in my game) that non-standard modules
> require special construction at a starport, and thus repairs to a custom ship
> cost _lots_ more.  So the hotshot engineer can customize the group's
> merchant, but then she'll spend a lot of time tinkering with the engines -
> which makes for great adventure hooks.  

Yes, it would!  Good idea.


> In general, I think we will need/evolve three levels of combat system:
> 
> (a) A simple storytelling system giving vivid descriptions and quick results.
> (b) A boardgame-style system for playing out the conflict.
> (c) A detailed boardgame/miniatures ruleset for those who want to fight in
> detail.
> 
> Ideally, all of these should fit together, but only the simplest needs to be
> in the basic game.

Sounds good, so long as one of the above is something like Book 2...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 02 Jun 1996 11:04:27 GMT
Subject: Linear Ship Design

The problem with linear design sequences is that designing is not a linear
process.  You design your ship, discover it's too slow (expensive, fragile,
whatever) and go back and change a few things.

The key will be to decide on one design parameter (probably volume) as a
primary consideration, and base the sequence on that.

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 09:37:54 -0600
Subject: Re: FF&S Light Challenge

At 08:52 am 6/2/96 -0500, Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> wrote:
>On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, David J. Golden wrote:
>
>>         The idea here is to provide something as simple as CT/HG while still
>> remaining compatible with a detailed advanced system to be published later.
>
>That sounds good to me.  I've examined your system-under-construction on 
>your web page, and what you have there has merit.  But (you knew that was 
>coming, didn't you?:) it still seems too complicated for a basic system.  

        I'll probably agree with you there. Part of that may simply be the
way it's laid out right now, which can be fixed. But I'm also looking for
ways to simplify it somewhat.

>Perhaps I am reading it wrong.  Your system seems to have one overall 
>design checklist, then another checklist for each major component (hull, 
>jump drive, maneuver drive, crew, etc.).  

        Well, that's partly just the way it's presented right now, since
it's a work in progress. But even High Guard had a "checklist" of sorts for
each major component: for example, the hull was (1) select size, and
configuration, (2) calculate cost, (3) select armor, (4) calculate armor
mass ... mine is (1) select hull size, configuration, armor and
acceleration, (2) read factors off the table, (3) do four simple
multiplications.

>Isn't it possible to boil it down to a single, 16-item checklist 
>supported by a single table for each design component?  I'd rather not 
>worry about what tech level my hull is designed at, what G acceleration 
>it can take, etc.  I realize there are compatability issues involved 

        I thought about going with just a single table, but there's so much
more detail to be gained at virtually no cost whatsoever -- just by being
willing to choose one of seven tables (really not that much more difficult
than looking at a single table), you gain the ability to look at different
hull configurations, which means even the simple system lets you make tradeoffs.

>here, but why not make those choices for people?  If 6G is the max 
>acceleration any ship is capable of under this system (for example), then 

        I think "6Gs is the max" is an example of an arbitrary limitation,
something most people, even under the basic system, would like to get rid
of. On the other hand, it would simplify the process *slightly*. 

>the basic system should have a table of hulls, and each hull should have 
>the capability of doing 6G factored into its statistics.  Sure, they're not 
>going to get a good deal on that hull if it is for a ship that only does 
>1G.  But it will still be compatable with the full-up system, while 
>retaining simplicity of design.

>Similarly, design decisions could be made for all components.  Get them 
>all down to a single table for each, just like in the Book 2 rules, and I 
>think you'll have a winner.  Just explicitly state which design decisions 
>have been made, so that it will indeed be possible to design those same 
>items under the full system to ensure compatability.

        So, perhaps instead of presenting a single table for each type of
maneuver drive and letting the designer pick, just assume all basic system
ships will use thruster plates? I'd certainly thought of that, and it's
eminently feasible. But again, by simply having a few extra tables that all
work the same, and asking the designer to take the extra microstep of
choosing one of them, even the basic system will generate some of the
richness of detail of the advanced system, without any increase in complexity.

>Do you see where I'm going, or am I not making sense?

        No, you're making perfect sense. That's what I started out aiming
for, but then I felt _too_ much detail would be obscured for little gain. If
I can create a simple system that can provide much of the detail *without*
forcing the designer to cope with the complexity behind that detail, I think
it's a good thing. After all, nobody objects to having detailed information
about ships. They just object to having to wade through all the grunt work
in generating that detail.

        Basically, if the detail can be pregenerated and reduced to a menu
from which the designer can pick, I don't see any reason not to include a
few extra tables. The resulting system may take up more pages than High
Guard did, but it should be as simple to use.

        Anybody else have a comment on this? Keep the number of tables to a
minimum, or more detail is fine as long as you don't have to calculate it.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 09:37:57 -0600
Subject: Re: Predesigned Ships, Game Systems, and Miniatures

At 09:17 am 6/2/96 -0500, Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net> wrote:
>On 1 Jun 1996, Rob Prior wrote:
>> To stop a custom-designed ship from having all the advantages over one built
>> of standard modules, I would rule (in my game) that non-standard modules
>> require special construction at a starport, and thus repairs to a custom ship
>> cost _lots_ more.  So the hotshot engineer can customize the group's
>> merchant, but then she'll spend a lot of time tinkering with the engines -
>> which makes for great adventure hooks.  
>
>Yes, it would!  Good idea.

        Hmmm. I must have missed Rob's original post. So I'll have to
respond to it by proxy:

        YES! I've said much the same thing ... your average customer is
going to walk in and pick systems "off-the-shelf" because they're cheaper.
The builder doesn't have to design, test and qualify a new design. Small
ships from one shipyard will tend to have the same stuff. But a
megacorporation, government or rich noble may have more detailed
requirements AND the money to pay for them.

        Although I think the non-standard construction will cost more, I'm
not so sure the repairs will cost "_lots_ more" depending on how you define
"lots." Even a custom system will probably make maximum use of standardized
parts. But if you define repair costs as a percentage of original cost, then
from that alone the repairs will cost more...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 09:40:16 -0600
Subject: Re: Linear Ship Design

At 11:04 am 6/2/96 GMT, you wrote:
>The problem with linear design sequences is that designing is not a linear
>process.  You design your ship, discover it's too slow (expensive, fragile,
>whatever) and go back and change a few things.

        I completely agree. Even under CT/HG, ship design was an iterative
process. What I meant by linear was that in step 5, I shouldn't have to
refer to chapter 1, 3, 7 and 9 to get all the information I need. Hull
design was annoying under FF&S, because you had to look at two different
tables, plus several equations, plus a table in another chapter! Flipping
back and forth is tedious.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:06:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: your mail

Glenn M. Goffin said:
> >        AND! Imperium Games will have a stack of starships ALREADY DESIGNED!
> >That's what they're asking for, right? Spend an hour browsing the web sites
> >and you'll have scores of ships. A quick e-mail to the author and you'll
> >have permission to publish.
> 
> Why would people buy ship designs that are already available free on the net?

The same reason they'd by the "Complete Works of William Shakespear" - because
they want it in print, easily and efficiently formatted, and ready to us.

And... you can always add those juicy tidbits to the print that aren't in
the basic sort of "online" stats.

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:10:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Getting T4 (Canadians read MMT) into the stores

On Sat, 1 Jun 1996, Paul Walker wrote:

> I'm going to do the only thing I know to do.  I'm going to go in to both of
> the stores and ask them to carry the new Trav.  And when it comes out, and
> I've had a bit of time to learn the system, I'm going to seek out a playing
> group more actively.  Hopefully this will spread the fires a bit, but I'm
> not too sure.

The situation sounds bleak in both our cases.  Sigh.  It is beginning to 
sound more and more like IG is going to have to work on it from their end 
by providing store owners with initial product knowledge.  Thereafter, we 
can tell the owners we want them to stock it.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joseph Heck <ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:23:16 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Changes to systems

Don Perrin said:
> For those who have offered to help me with the ship designs, please hold
> off for a very short while until I am finished grappling with these issues.
> I should have an answer for you Monday. Thank you to all the comments. They
> have helped modify and improve what I'm doing, regardless of the path. Your
> input has been invaluable.
> 
> I'll get back to you.

Afternoon Don,

I hope you're not reading this on Sunday (grin), but whenever you happen
by my message, I would like to develop something or three for you. I 
especially enjoy deckplans and I'm good with Illustrator... Anyway, please
add me to the list of those folks who're thinking about developing something
for you. I'd like to know which design sequence to use...

- -- 
 joe                          (573) 882-2000
 ccjoe@showme.missouri.edu    http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe
 "with a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and
 impenetrable fog!" -- Calvin

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 11:37:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: FF&S Light Challenge

On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

>         I'll probably agree with you there. Part of that may simply be the
> way it's laid out right now, which can be fixed. But I'm also looking for
> ways to simplify it somewhat.

I thought perhaps the web-page format, and the fact that it is a 
work-in-progress, might have something to do with the complexity.  But I 
wasn't sure.  I'm glad to see you comfirming that the complexity will be 
decreased in the final product.

> >Perhaps I am reading it wrong.  Your system seems to have one overall 
> >design checklist, then another checklist for each major component (hull, 
> >jump drive, maneuver drive, crew, etc.).  
> 
>         Well, that's partly just the way it's presented right now, since
> it's a work in progress. But even High Guard had a "checklist" of sorts for

I think this is where we're diverging.  You are comparing the proposed 
system to HG, while I am comparing it to Book 2.  I consider HG to be a 
complex system for a beginner.  What you are talking about is something 
at least that complex, and I'm afraid the result will be unpalatable to 
new gamers.

>         I thought about going with just a single table, but there's so much
> more detail to be gained at virtually no cost whatsoever -- just by being
> willing to choose one of seven tables (really not that much more difficult
> than looking at a single table), you gain the ability to look at different
> hull configurations, which means even the simple system lets you make tradeoffs.

I agree that dividing the hulls into a number of tables wouldn't put an 
undue hardship on beginners.  

What you are proposing is that, after selecting a hull from one of seven 
tables, they will then multiply the cost by an armor factor, a factor for 
acceleration reinforcement, a factor for streamlining, and a factor for 
landing stress.  Doesn't sound too hard.

>         So, perhaps instead of presenting a single table for each type of
> maneuver drive and letting the designer pick, just assume all basic system
> ships will use thruster plates? I'd certainly thought of that, and it's
> eminently feasible. But again, by simply having a few extra tables that all
> work the same, and asking the designer to take the extra microstep of
> choosing one of them, even the basic system will generate some of the
> richness of detail of the advanced system, without any increase in complexity.

Okay, now that you are explaining it, it doesn't sound like a bad 
system.  I guess looking at all that information on your web page, and 
realizing that a lot hasn't been completed yet, I got the feeling that it 
was going to be more complicated than it is.

So the player will not have to design any specific piece of the ship.  
They will only have to select them, determine their interactions (by 
using some simple formulas), and add up the cost.  Sounds simple enough 
for me, in principle.

>         No, you're making perfect sense. That's what I started out aiming
> for, but then I felt _too_ much detail would be obscured for little gain. If
> I can create a simple system that can provide much of the detail *without*
> forcing the designer to cope with the complexity behind that detail, I think
> it's a good thing. After all, nobody objects to having detailed information
> about ships. They just object to having to wade through all the grunt work
> in generating that detail.

Right.

>         Anybody else have a comment on this? Keep the number of tables to a
> minimum, or more detail is fine as long as you don't have to calculate it.

More detail is fine...to a point, of course.  But it sound like you could 
keep your system down to one page of tables or less for each design 
element (ie, one page of hull types, divided among seven tables; one page 
of weapons, divided among, say, four tables; etc.).  The system you are 
explaining here sounds like a good way to satisfy everyone.

I guess we'll just have to wait until Monday to find out what Don decides 
is feasible given the publication time constraint.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Sun,  2 Jun 96 17:06:00 UTC 0000
Subject: Twilight: 2000

> A bit off the subject, but is there an indication of T2K's fate?
> Will it, too, rise again?

Tantalus is the place to ask that question. I'm strictly freelance
talent nowadays... " )


 Perhaps Rob can shed some light here?

 Loren

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 14:12:48 -0400
Subject: Universal Ship Profile suggestion

No matter what the final design system is, we will need some way to
represent the results in a compact format, such as High Guard's Universal
Ship Profile (USP).  However, limitations of the USP format were one of
the things driving the (IMHO) rather artificial limitations on ship
weaponry (you couldn't have bay or turret particle accellerators if you
had a spinal installation, because there was only one position for
particle accellerators).

SO, I propose breaking out the offensive weapons into separate groups for
spinal (two digits), bay (four types), and turret (four types).  Theese
new groups would replace the existing five-place offensive weapon group
in the USP.  The defensive weapons don't need breaking out like this,
because they can only be installed in one type of mount (sandcasters only
come in turret installations, repulsors are so large they must be mounted
in bays; and all the rest are internal).  In the examples below, I've also
added the sensor/EW group that was proposed recently.


Old USP Examples:

BC-9514 Kinunir  BC-A2447G2-000510-50202-0  MCr1336.63  1250 Tons
batteries bearing                  2 2 2
        batteries                  2 2 2

BB-7241 Tigress  BB-V5368J4-F97909-967T9-W  MCr362721  500 kTons
batteries bearing            5   B 5R51Y
        batteries            A   N AXA1Z


NEW USP Examples:

BC-9514 Kinunir  BC-A2447G2-000510-00-0000-5022-0-7741  MCr1336.63  1250 Tons
batteries bearing                          2 22
        batteries                          2 22

BB-7241 Tigress  BB-V5368J4-F97909-0T-0009-9670-W-7741  Mcr362721  500 kTons
batteries bearing            5   B  1    Y 5R5
        batteries            A   N  1    Z AXA


Here's the complete breakdown of the new USP format:
XX-@@@@  Example  XX-1234567-89ABCD-EF-GHIJ-KLMN-O-PQRS  MCr$$$$$$  ### Tons

Ship Identification:
XX = Ship Type code
@@@@ = Ship Number
Example = Ship Name

General Information:
1 = Tonnage code
2 = Comfiguration code
3 = Jump Number
4 = Maneuver G's
5 = Power Plant rating (is this still needed?)
6 = Computer Code (or computer DM, perhaps?)
7 = Crew code

Defense:
8 = Hull Armor factor
9 = Sandcaster Turret factor
A = Meson Screen factor
B = Nuclear Damper factor
C = Force Field (black globe) factor
D = Repulsor Bay factor

Spinal Weapons:
E = Spinal Particle Accellerator factor
F = Spinal Meson Gun factor

Bay Weapons:
G = Energy Weapon Bay (plasma and fusion gun, if still used) factor
H = Particle Accelerator Bay factor
I = Meson Gun Bay factor
J = Missile Bay factor

Turret Weapons:
K = Laser Turret Battery factor
L = Energy Weapon Turret Battery factor
M = Particle Accelerator Barbette factor
N = Missile Turret Battery factor

Fighters:
O = Number of fighter squadrons

Electronic Warfare:
P = Active Sensor factor
Q = Passive Sensor factor
R = Active Jammer (ECM) factor
S = Stealth and EMM factor

Additional Information:
$$$$$$ = Cost in MegaCredits (to six significant figures)
### = Exact tonnage, in displacement tons.


Despite the complexity of decoding the USP (I drew up special ship control
sheets that helped immensely in my own games), I think it's important to
have a compact format for representing everything important about a ship.
The longer descriptions, particularly those used in MegaTraveller, always
seemed cumbersome when attempting to compare ship designs.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

From: dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 13:49:10 -0600
Subject: Starship Design

Greetings All;

It seems that I have been swayed by the myriad of discussions here on the
Traveller and the XBoat mailing lists. I'm willing to give FF&S Light a
try. Dave Golden (goldendj@mail.usa.net) has volunteered to coordinate the
design of this system. Please email comments and suggestions to him.

FF&S (and Light) will need a method of creating a USP however. The basic
combat system will still be High Guard-like. The changes will probably
include two more range bands (a la Battle Rider - short, medium, long,
extreme). In fact, Battle Rider could be used as a semi-basis for this
method. See what you come up with. Also, the design of starships using FF&S
Light should take from 15 minutes to 30 minutes to complete. No more.

I've given Dave until Friday to come up with a working model of the FF&S
Light system, including the USP generation sub-system. If I accept the
system, then this is what will happen:

        The Main Book will contain some stock ship designs, their USP's,
        and the Modified High Guard combat system.

        The Starships book will contain more stock ship designs, their deck
        plans, their USP's, the FF&S Light building system, and some other
        stuff.

        Later, we'll publish FF&S (updated) again under a new name.

This would mean that FF&S is the system for developing starships. You can
still use it. FF&S Light will be used by new players, and those not
interested in the level of detail from FF&S. Tech levels for jump drives,
et al, are as per FF&S. Ignore what I said earlier.

BTW, fusion is a little strange around year 0. The fusion from FF&S is what
we call "Fusion Plus". Before year 0, no one had Fusion Plus, only fusion.
What this means for ships over 100 tons is - nothing. However, the power
plant necessary for a 100 ton ship is as small as it could get.
Effectively, there were no starships of less than 100 tons. Then came the
Empire, and they invented Fusion Plus. Now they can build a 10 ton fighter,
a 50 ton modular cutter, a ship's boat, etc. Other people can only build
100 ton shuttles or the like. Now you can see why so many people wanted to
join the Empire back in Milieu 0.

For those of you who expressed an interest in designing ships for me,
please hold off until Friday to see what the design system will look like.
You could, however, use FF&S to design the ships, if you like. I'm looking
for TL11 ships for Civilian service and TL12 ships for government/military
service. I'd prefer to have deck plans in some .eps style format, if
possible. Use 2 meters per square, if you will. The plans must fit on an 8"
by 10" page (or, for large ships, two pages.)

Thank you for your support and encouragement. Let's get to work!

Don Perrin
Imperium Games



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #39
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 2 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 040

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Starship Design
         2. Re: FF&S Lite - I need it now!
         3. Re: FF&S Light Challenge
         4. Re: Starship Design
         5. Re: Starship Design
         6. Traveller-digest V1996 #27
         7. Changes to systems
         8. Re: FF&S Lite - I need it now!
         9. Re: A suggestion
        10. Re: FF&S Suggestions
        11. FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin
        12. Re:  A suggestion
        13. Re: Wow, A lot to do by friday :-)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David E. Brooks Jr" <dbj@mpgn.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:35:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Starship Design

On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, Don Perrin wrote:

> You could, however, use FF&S to design the ships, if you like. I'm looking
> for TL11 ships for Civilian service and TL12 ships for government/military
> service.

Just a quick question:  Which should we use for maneuver drives,
thruster plates or HEPLaR drives?

- -- Dave

- --
David E. Brooks Jr / dbj@MPGN.COM | GCS/O d? H+(-) s:+ g+ a w++(--) v
Tantalus Incorporated             | C++ UU++++$ UO P+>+++ L+ E N+ W+>+++
Key West, FL                      | M- V- po Y+ t+(++) !5 !j R+(++)>+++ G'
+1 305 293 8100 x15               | tv- b+>++ D B- e u+ h--- f+ r+++ n y?


------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 14:07:40 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: FF&S Lite - I need it now!

Dave Golden said: 
> proposal to you. I've already started on that. If you _are_ interested, I've
> already had some ideas on improving what's I've published, and with inputs
> from the Traveller and GDW-Beta lists I'm willing to bet we could have
> something available within a week. I can take some leave and spend much of
> my time working on this (I'm already scheduled to be off the week after this).

Start it up on the beta list and I'll do what I can as well.  We need to
keep in mind that there was talk of a HG-compatible requirement.  This
would mean fixing FFS until certain numbers replicated HG (drive %s,
etc.).  As long as the ships _work_ the same way, I'd think there'd be
leeway here.  For weapons, etc. FFS goes from real units (MW/MJ) to
abstract units used in combat rule (damage points, etc.).  We could
easily just change those arbitrary conversions to result in HG factors.
The same is more or less true of energy points, as well.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 15:14:08 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: FF&S Light Challenge

 
> I think this is where we're diverging.  You are comparing the proposed 
> system to HG, while I am comparing it to Book 2.  I consider HG to be a 
> complex system for a beginner.  What you are talking about is something 
> at least that complex, and I'm afraid the result will be unpalatable to 
> new gamers.

Hmm, I only used book 2 to design ships until I bought HG.  Never used
B2 again for that.  I could knock out a HG desing in no time, even in
the early 80s (back in high school).  I saved up and bought HG within a
few months of buying the boxed set as I recall.

I don't think that the design system should be limited to people that
can't add or multiply :-)  HG's most complicated math is to figure,
what, energy points?  Agility?  The actual design process has no more
than taking %s.

- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 15:49:14 -0600
Subject: Re: Starship Design

At 03:35 pm 6/2/96 -0400, "David E. Brooks Jr" <dbj@MPGN.COM> wrote:
>On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, Don Perrin wrote:
>
>> You could, however, use FF&S to design the ships, if you like. I'm looking
>> for TL11 ships for Civilian service and TL12 ships for government/military
>> service.
>
>Just a quick question:  Which should we use for maneuver drives,
>thruster plates or HEPLaR drives?

        From my discussions with Don this morning, both types of drives will
be available in FF&S Light. It's going to depend on whether you like the
tradeoffs in combat associated with limited fuel, or if you're willing to
ignore the "Doomsday Lifeboat" possible with virtually unlimited
acceleration. I'm afraid I neglected to ask which would be considered
"canon" in the new setting ...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 16:15:18 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Starship Design

 
>         From my discussions with Don this morning, both types of drives will
> be available in FF&S Light. It's going to depend on whether you like the
> tradeoffs in combat associated with limited fuel, or if you're willing to
> ignore the "Doomsday Lifeboat" possible with virtually unlimited
> acceleration. I'm afraid I neglected to ask which would be considered
> "canon" in the new setting ...

Hey,

A simple addition to the canon (I haven't thought it through all the
way) might be this:  repulsors might work better as target velocity
(relative to the repulsor) increases.  They'd get better and better at
deflecting  nasty stuff.  Low tech civilizations would go through a
risky period where interstellar/interplanetary wars would be really,
really nasty, but things would get better after that.  It would also
explain the missiles in CT/MT.  I have yet to think of an even
hand-waving reason why this would be so, but the end result works :-)

A navigational repulsor would be standard on ships at TLs to support it.
Without one, you'd have limited velocities relative to the
InterPlanetary Medium (IPM) unless you wanted to trash your ship... has
interesting implications.

Comments?

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 02 Jun 96 18:38:31 EDT
Subject: Traveller-digest V1996 #27

Don Perrin wrote:

>> I am creating the first of the expansions for the new Marc Miller's
Traveller series, appropriately named Starships. <<

Head in the lion's mouth time, huh? Some of what follows may come over pretty
strong, but I guess I feel pretty passionate about things.

>> I am using the starship building rules from the original Classic Traveller
book for small ships, and the High Guard system for larger ships. <<

Adopting High Guard rather than a developed and streamlined FFS is akin to
evolution selecting the archeopteryx over a peregrine falcon. High Guard had
faults and you've just thrown away ten years of experience in streamlining the
design process. If you absolutely must use High Guard, dump the USP as a first
move - I was and am a Traveller fanatic, yet I never learnt to read them without
a copy of book 5 in hand (much the same goes for planetary stats). A verbal
description is much more evocative (and readable) than a number string. A
bifurcated (large ship/small ship) design process is also a mistake, IMO. Why
should I have to learn two systems when a single integrated design system has
been demonstrated - twice (and even HG worked at the small ship scale, so make
that three times).

>> Computer table:
Capacity is rated as optimum foreground/background capacity.

Model   Mcr     Capacity    Jump <<

I am afraid that any attempt to integrate the original computer system concepts
into the rules is going to lead to me considering them as little better than a
joke. I work in the defense avionics industry, anyone suggesting this
architecture would be laughed at all the way to the door, proposing it as the
cutting edge a thousand years down the line is inviting disbelief (or worse).
Centralised multi-purpose computers represent a design concept that was out of
date when Traveller was first conceived. To attempt to resurrect that system in
T4 is little short of unbelievable. Consider this - almost without exception the
potential market for T4 will have been exposed to low cost micros, very likely
to networkable games or the Internet. They know and have an instinctive
understanding of distributed computing power as the modern approach, that
mainframes went out of the door years ago. For a retro-styled game such as Dark
Conspiracy centralised computers might have worked, but for Traveller?!

Commenting generally, rather than specifically WRT the ship design rules, I must
admit that what we know of the design decisions behind T4 worries me. It seems
to me that everything we have learnt is being sacrificed in pursuit of the
mythical 'compatibility' with CT rules. What percentage of your market will be
CT fanatics, playing using CT rules and CT backgrounds? Very few, I suspect.
Even those few who are will be abandoned, because the first Milieu won't be CT's
Spinward Marches in the early 1100s, it will be Sylean space in Year 0, and for
those of us running Rebellion or New Era campaigns help is even further away -
to be frank, as a TNE player I feel betrayed. T4 is going to have a tough time
establishing itself, not only does it have to overcome the inertia in the games
distribution networks caused by a surfeit of CCGs, but it is launching at almost
the same time as The Babylon Project, a game with inbuilt TV advertising and
brand recognition and likely with graphics even Chris Foss can't hope to compete
with. Against this kind of competition T4 needs to play to its strengths, and
its strengths are the depth of its backgrounds, not the outmoded CT rules
system.

                                David


------------------------------

From: David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 02 Jun 96 18:38:36 EDT
Subject: Changes to systems

Don Perrin wrote:
>> I'm looking at .... FF&S/Brilliant Lances Technical Booklet, and it is
cumbersome and very non-role-playing-inducive. <<

Compared to a Book 2 design? Or a High Guard design? The ship design process is
something essentially separate from the role playing aspect of Traveller. The
crossover is the final design, printed in a book or a magazine adventure, or
just in the ref's notes. Can you honestly say that a Book 2 design is more
inspiring than a BL one? IMO BL gives much more of what the players want to know
about their ships, whereas Book 2 gave a bare bones text summary (let's not even
try to discuss the applicability of a HG USP to roleplaying). The only time the
Book 2 designs really worked was when Marc (usually), took that skeleton and
fleshed it out in one of the adventures - but how much of that came from Book 2
and how much from Marc?

>> We are to provide a role playing experience that is based
on Classic Traveller <<

But do you want something that feels like CT to the players, or something that
has rules like CT? The two are not necessarily the same thing.

>> set in the environs of Year 0 <<

So, Sylean designs, not the ones we know and love, but not otherwise different
to the situation faced by people creating ships for Pocket-Empires in TNE.
Effectively you're working with a tech-level limitation, but the freedom to do
anything within those bounds.

>> The combat system cannot be hex based <<

Heresy <g>. If you're going to tabletopping (name a RPG that doesn't resolve
combat on table top or hex grid) then that isn't too bad, though hex grids are
more convenient for many of us. If you mean to reinstate abstract range bands
then the system becomes less attractive, if doable. The unfortunate corrolary is
that this means forcing disparate weapons into identical range bands.

>> If I do decide to go with a High Guard system, then I think it would be fair
to expect an FF&S system in a future expansion, along with a more
detailed hex based combat replacement. As was pointed out, Traveller is
nothing if not modular. <<

That might satisfy me, but modular must mean modular - ie same design decisions
in get you the same ship out at the end.

                                    David


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 16:44:04 -0600
Subject: Re: FF&S Lite - I need it now!

At 02:07 pm 6/2/96 -0600, you wrote:
>Start it up on the beta list and I'll do what I can as well.  We need to
>keep in mind that there was talk of a HG-compatible requirement.  This
>would mean fixing FFS until certain numbers replicated HG (drive %s,
>etc.).  As long as the ships _work_ the same way, I'd think there'd be

        That's not my understanding from Don. While the mechanics are going
to be the same, I don't think there's any intention of "altering" FF&S in
that drastic a manner. In fact, FF&S should be left virtually unchanged.

>leeway here.  For weapons, etc. FFS goes from real units (MW/MJ) to
>abstract units used in combat rule (damage points, etc.).  We could
>easily just change those arbitrary conversions to result in HG factors.
>The same is more or less true of energy points, as well.

        Certainly. We want to keep the detailed FF&S units in FF&S, but we
need a way to convert an FF&S laser's "Rng: Pen-Dmg" to some kind of
single-digit combat factor.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 16:44:07 -0600
Subject: Re: A suggestion

At 02:38 pm 6/2/96 -0600, merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>Dave,
>
>I was thinking that a really good place to start might be for us (under
>the assumption that Marc wants the final product to be compatable with
>USPs created with HG) to do the following:

        Not a good assumption, according to Don. "High Guard-like"
apparently doesn't mean reissuing Book 5 as it stands.

>3.  Agree on things to trash from FFS (computers still broken, crew
>levels, etc.).

        Some things definitely need tweaking, such as crew. I'm inclined to
use the FF&S crews as "low-automation" and come up with a simple multiplier
for automation effects. But at the same time, we need to do this fast, and
with as little change to FF&S as possible.

>4.  I'd like to fix the missile combat tables to reflect KKMs (I posted
>a Q&D version).  I'd prefer a different combat system, though.  I'd

        I don't know what the plans are for missile combat ... I'll ask Don.
Can I get the latest version of your Q&D rules? How would you modify the HG
rules?

>results that this should be the most flexible thing in HG.  I'd like to
>see damage separated from to-hit a little better... I have ideas, but
>they need to gel a little before I can express them.

        High Guard uses to-hit, to-penetrate, and then damage rolls (had to
look it up, it's been so long.

>5.  I always hated the 100 ton per HP rule.  I'd like to see a surface
>area column on the new design form, but would settle for some note that
>said it was a rule of thumb, and that to break it you should wait for
>detailed design rules.  Make sure that the detailed SA rules usually
>degenerate to 1HP per 100 tons (radiator area for drives would do this
>well since it scales with ship volume.

        Rule of thumb, or perhaps just "Imperial Ministry of Commerce and
Transportation" regulation for civilian craft licensing. Anyway, weapons are
still going to be limited by surface area as per FF&S.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 16:44:09 -0600
Subject: Re: FF&S Suggestions

At 04:37 pm 6/2/96 GMT, Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:
>Bet you're getting lots of these messages...
>
>I haven't been able to access your web page (my provider's down - this email
>is a separate email-only account), so these are general comments.

        Well, no, you're the only one with trouble accessing the web. Oh,
you mean messages with comments! Yep.

>ALTERNATIVE TECHNOLOGY
>
>Stick with thruster technology for the basic T4 book.  Tables of new drive
>types can be added later, either as part of a book or as JTAS articles.  The
>same applies to other alternative techs.  

        My understanding is we're sticking very closely to FF&S. I
specifically asked about having multiple drive tables, but didn't think to
clarify whether the "standard" would remain HEPlaR or revert to thruster
plates. I'll ask about that.

>POWER PLANTS
>
>Put scale efficiencies back into FF&S. Set the breakpoints so that they don't
>affect the basic game.  Consider capping sizes (after all, a 200 MW
>air-cooled IC engine is silly: there are better technologies in that power
>range).

        The one subject where FF&S is open for changes! By now you've read
Don's message about the nature of fusion plants at TL11 ... too big for
ships much smaller than 100tons. We've got to come up with some rationale,
handwaving or not, for this, so we don't get stuck with an arbitrary "before
TL12 thou shalt not have fusion in small craft." Anybody got any ideas about
a physics breakthrough in fusion technology that won't necessarily increase
the power density, but will allow smaller minimum sizes?


>Provide a table of standard power plants.  Assume that shipboard plants have
>several 'boilers', so that they can take fractional damage.  However, several
>plants reduce chances of a "PP destroyed" critical hit from taking you out
>entirely!

        FF&S Light will consist _mostly_ of tables of "standard _____s." And
since most ships will probably have an odd power requirement, chances are
good there will be multiple pplants: say you need 87MW: put in three 25MW
plants and a 15MW plant...

>BRIDGE/CONTROLS
>
>Roll the cost/mass/volume of controls into the cost/mass/volume of the
>equipment they control.  This is easier on the designer.  In the full FF&S
>you will probably want these separate, but for basic T4 they should be
>included.

        Good idea ... I'll see if I can tweak the hull tables some more. I'm
still not at all happy with them.

>CREW
>
>I had a brilliant idea, but it's slipped my mind :-)
>
>Seriously, incorporate the automation/initiative tradeoff I posted. 
>Basically, I allowed my MT players to buy/use robots, but they took an
>initiative penalty in combat/emergencies and had a reduced chance of battle
>repairs.  Seemed to work OK.

        I'm leaning toward recommending that FF&S crew levels be taken as a
"low-automation" level, due to Virus. Pre-Collapse crews will be smaller.
Maybe just a simple fraction of the "book" levels, by TL perhaps. Suggestions?

>STANDARDIZATION
>
>State outright that standard modules are just that.  They are cheap, rugged,
>and repairable anywhere.  State that custom designs are possible but require
>arrangements with shipyards and manufacturers (excellent chance to role-play
>negotiations) as well as up-front financing. 

        Yep.

>Additionally, custom designs will be more expensive to fix and require more
>crew.  Justification?  Rather than simply unplugging that radar and plugging
>in another you have to open the transponder box, diagnose which transducer is
>damaged, find a replacement in a local manufacturers catalog, install the
>replacement, test it...  Sure, the broken standard rader will be repaired and
>resold as a 'reconditioned' model, _but that happens when the players aren't
>there_.  

        Well, even a custom designed system will probably be designed around
mostly standard-type parts. But if you just define repair costs as a
fraction of the original cost, then the higher original cost will drive
higher repair costs without a separate rule.


>Now, custom designs won't be used in the basic game, but mention that they
>are coming so the gear-heads (like us) have something to look forward to.

        Custom designs are coming <G>. In fact, they're still here.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 16:44:00 -0600
Subject: FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin

Everybody's seen Don Perrin's message by now, saying that my big mouth got
me into the hot water. I've got until Friday to come up with a basic working
model of "Fire, Fusion & Steel Light." I need some serious help to do this.
During my talks with Don Perrin this morning, here's the guidance I got:

	1) "Fire, Fusion & Steel" (FF&S) _will be_ the detailed spacecraft design
supplement for MMT, with little change. He doesn't want a wholesale rewrite.
Only if something is seriously broken will it be tweaked. However! If it
does get fixed, it needs those fixes identified NOW so they are incorporated
into the "Light" version. IG will eventually reissue FF&S, and any updates
will be made available on the Net for those who already have it.

	2) Combat will be "High Guard-style," using single-digit ratings for
systems in a Universal Ship Profile, and separate to-hit/to-penetrate tables
instead of tasks. So we need to come up with a way of converting detailed
statistics into single-digit type ratings. But we're not rewriting FF&S to
look like HG. My understanding is that the combat rules will *not* be
straight out of "Book 5, 2nd Edition" as far as actual values, etc., just
that the mechanics themselves will be very similar. As an intermediate step,
the abstracted combat values in "Brilliant Lances" may be a good start for
generating USPs.

	4) The USP really shouldn't grow much bigger -- Don thinks it's probably
too long already. He's talking about coming up with some way to roll ALL the
offensive and defensive systems into a single factor each, i.e. Attack 7,
Defend 5. Just for the basic rules, folks, calm down. Something like
"Brilliant Lances" (and probably "Brilliant Lances") is also being planned,
and they'll use mechanics much like the existing ones, in all their glorious
detail. But a quick firefight in the middle of a roleplaying session
shouldn't break the momentum.

	5) Fusion power plants are one thing that needs fixing in FF&S. One of the
"hooks" in the Milieu 0 setting is the idea of "Fusion Plus." Ok, it's not a
very catchy phrase, but here's the basic idea. The commonly available fusion
plants are big. You really can't build them small enough for a fighter, for
example. The Imperium, with a common TL of 11 but a military TL of 12 has
had a technology breakthrough which allows them to build much smaller plants
that can fit into fighters (or other small craft). The new plants don't
produce more power per unit mass; you can just build them smaller. One of
the reasons many "pocket empires" are willing to join the Imperium is this
technology. 
	So we need to tweak the fusion plant rules enough that it's not practical
to put them into ships much smaller than 100tons prior to TL12. I repeat,
they're not necessarily more efficient, they can just be made smaller after
TL12. I _seriously_ need some inputs on this one, folks.

	6) The variety in armor materials, maneuver drives, etc. will be kept.
However, the basic design rules need to be structured to make design as much
as possible a "Pick a system, deduct its volume from the running total, add
its price, mass and power requirements to the total, and press on."

	7) "Basic Working Model" means all tables basically complete. Prose to make
it look good can be added later, as long as the system is testable now.

	8) If possible, don't pester Don about spacecraft design, he's probably
busy with the combat rules. I get all the hate mail now.

	9) I'll follow discussions on all three lists (Beta, Traveller and XBoat)
as soon as I get resubscribed to the XBoat. If you sent a message on XBoat
before receiving this, I didn't get it. I'll probably get three or four
copies of every message as people echo them to all the lists, but it's
easier and quicker than asking everybody to join just one of the lists for
the discussion. I need everybody's ideas.

	10) I'll keep copies of work-in-progress on my Web site at 

		http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html

	What's there right now isn't yet the latest version, as I'm in the middle
of changes, but I'll get it up soon.


SUMMARY: We're _not_ designing a new system, nor doing wholesale surgery on
FF&S. We're taking the existing rules and coming up with a simplified system
for quick & dirty designs. And we're doing it fast, so there's not much time
to squabble. My basic plan of attack is to convert all the FF&S rules to a
set of tables from which you can pick items. But I need input from
everybody, especially those who're most interested in a basic system.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 16:53:42 -0600
Subject: Re:  A suggestion

At 06:12 pm 6/2/96 -0400, Derek Wildstar wrote:
>merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>> 1.  List the things in HG that are *really* broken.
>
>My suggestion is that Don is giving us the chance to replace High Guard with
>an FF&S-derived system.  THEREFORE, if we can figure out a way to generate
>High-Guard "style" USPs from FF&S equipment and weapons, then we can replace
>everything in one fell swoop.  This allows us to avoid some of the more
>sticky (and time-consuming) High-Guard irregularities.

        That's the goal: create "HG-style" USPs, not a High Guard version of
FF&S. The design system will remain FF&S -- all Light is is a set of
pregenerated FF&S systems.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 16:53:39 -0600
Subject: Re: Wow, A lot to do by friday :-)

At 03:50 pm 6/2/96 -0600, merrick@qrc.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>Well, looks like FFSLight has a go ahead.
>
>Making tables of premade stuff a la Book2 should be trivial.  A few
>points:
>
>1.  Should the basic system for the general rules specialize on small
>ships like B2?  In this case we don't need to fill in tables for MGs and
>the like, only up to, say 5000ton ships need be considered.

        Small ships ... I was only planning on going up to about 5,000Td.
Most customers for bigger ships are going to be governments or megacorps
with detailed specs and more money. Plus, most shipyards aren't going to
have "standard" equipment big enough for the rare big ship.

>2.  In order to make said tables, what parts of FFS need fixing?

        As little as possible, with one exception. To fit the basic setting
envisioned for Milieu 0, fusion plants need some work.

>3.  Are we requiring backwards compatability with HG? (I assume yes)
>
>In the case of #3, should we just alter FFS to produce exact matches,
>right off the bat (j-drive fuel, for example, or mdrive %s)?

        Well, Don seemed very firm about not changing FF&S. He did agree
that we can tweak it somewhat if absolutely needed, but no major revisions.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #40
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 2 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 041

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Undeliverable Message
         2. Re: FF&S Suggestions
         3. Undeliverable Message
         4. Undeliverable Message
         5. Undeliverable Message
         6. Undeliverable Message
         7. Undeliverable Message
         8. Undeliverable Message
         9. Undeliverable Message

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 18:57:07 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <gdw-beta@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------Everybody's seen Don Perrin's message by now, saying that my big mouth got
me into the hot water. I've got until Friday to come up with a basic working
model of "Fire, Fusion & Steel Light." I need some serious help to do this.
During my talks with Don Perrin this morning, here's the guidance I got:

	1) "Fire, Fusion & Steel" (FF&S) _will be_ the detailed spacecraft design
supplement for MMT, with little change. He doesn't want a wholesale rewrite.
Only if something is seriously broken will it be tweaked. However! If it
does get fixed, it needs those fixes identified NOW so they are incorporated
into the "Light" version. IG will eventually reissue FF&S, and any updates
will be made available on the Net for those who already have it.

	2) Combat will be "High Guard-style," using single-digit ratings for
systems in a Universal Ship Profile, and separate to-hit/to-penetrate tables
instead of tasks. So we need to come up with a way of converting detailed
statistics into single-digit type ratings. But we're not rewriting FF&S to
look like HG. My understanding is that the combat rules will *not* be
straight out of "Book 5, 2nd Edition" as far as actual values, etc., just
that the mechanics themselves will be very similar. As an intermediate step,
the abstracted combat values in "Brilliant Lances" may be a good start for
generating USPs.

	4) The USP really shouldn't grow much bigger -- Don thinks it's probably
too long already. He's talking about coming up with some way to roll ALL the
offensive and defensive systems into a single factor each, i.e. Attack 7,
Defend 5. Just for the basic rules, folks, calm down. Something like
"Brilliant Lances" (and probably "Brilliant Lances") is also being planned,
and they'll use mechanics much like the existing ones, in all their glorious
detail. But a quick firefight in the middle of a roleplaying session
shouldn't break the momentum.

	5) Fusion power plants are one thing that needs fixing in FF&S. One of the
"hooks" in the Milieu 0 setting is the idea of "Fusion Plus." Ok, it's not a
very catchy phrase, but here's the basic idea. The commonly available fusion
plants are big. You really can't build them small enough for a fighter, for
example. The Imperium, with a common TL of 11 but a military TL of 12 has
had a technology breakthrough which allows them to build much smaller plants
that can fit into fighters (or other small craft). The new plants don't
produce more power per unit mass; you can just build them smaller. One of
the reasons many "pocket empires" are willing to join the Imperium is this
technology. 
	So we need to tweak the fusion plant rules enough that it's not practical
to put them into ships much smaller than 100tons prior to TL12. I repeat,
they're not necessarily more efficient, they can just be made smaller after
TL12. I _seriously_ need some inputs on this one, folks.

	6) The variety in armor materials, maneuver drives, etc. will be kept.
However, the basic design rules need to be structured to make design as much
as possible a "Pick a system, deduct its volume from the running total, add
its price, mass and power requirements to the total, and press on."

	7) "Basic Working Model" means all tables basically complete. Prose to make
it look good can be added later, as long as the system is testable now.

	8) If possible, don't pester Don about spacecraft design, he's probably
busy with the combat rules. I get all the hate mail now.

	9) I'll follow discussions on all three lists (Beta, Traveller and XBoat)
as soon as I get resubscribed to the XBoat. If you sent a message on XBoat
before receiving this, I didn't get it. I'll probably get three or four
copies of every message as people echo them to all the lists, but it's
easier and quicker than asking everybody to join just one of the lists for
the discussion. I need everybody's ideas.

	10) I'll keep copies of work-in-progress on my Web site at 

		http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html

	What's there right now isn't yet the latest version, as I'm in the middle
of changes, but I'll get it up soon.


SUMMARY: We're _not_ designing a new system, nor doing wholesale surgery on
FF&S. We're taking the existing rules and coming up with a simplified system
for quick & dirty designs. And we're doing it fast, so there's not much time
to squabble. My basic plan of attack is to convert all the FF&S rules to a
set of tables from which you can pick items. But I need input from
everybody, especially those who're most interested in a basic system.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.



------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 17:03:05 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: FF&S Suggestions

 
> >POWER PLANTS
> 
>         The one subject where FF&S is open for changes! By now you've read
> Don's message about the nature of fusion plants at TL11 ... too big for
> ships much smaller than 100tons. We've got to come up with some rationale,
> handwaving or not, for this, so we don't get stuck with an arbitrary "before
> TL12 thou shalt not have fusion in small craft." Anybody got any ideas about
> a physics breakthrough in fusion technology that won't necessarily increase
> the power density, but will allow smaller minimum sizes?

Yup, it's very, very simple.  Strong/weak force control.  Dampers
represent this tech, and come in at TL12.  Before that fusion plants are
quantitative improvements on what we might be able to do in the next
century.  After TL12 it's a whole new ball game.
 
- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 19:07:13 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>,<gdw-beta@qrc.com>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re:  A suggestion

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 06:12 pm 6/2/96 -0400, Derek Wildstar wrote:
>merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>> 1.  List the things in HG that are *really* broken.
>
>My suggestion is that Don is giving us the chance to replace High Guard with
>an FF&S-derived system.  THEREFORE, if we can figure out a way to generate
>High-Guard "style" USPs from FF&S equipment and weapons, then we can replace
>everything in one fell swoop.  This allows us to avoid some of the more
>sticky (and time-consuming) High-Guard irregularities.

        That's the goal: create "HG-style" USPs, not a High Guard version of
FF&S. The design system will remain FF&S -- all Light is is a set of
pregenerated FF&S systems.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.



------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 19:13:34 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <merrick@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
		 <gdw-beta@qrc.com>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: Wow, A lot to do by friday :-)

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 03:50 pm 6/2/96 -0600, merrick@qrc.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>Well, looks like FFSLight has a go ahead.
>
>Making tables of premade stuff a la Book2 should be trivial.  A few
>points:
>
>1.  Should the basic system for the general rules specialize on small
>ships like B2?  In this case we don't need to fill in tables for MGs and
>the like, only up to, say 5000ton ships need be considered.

        Small ships ... I was only planning on going up to about 5,000Td.
Most customers for bigger ships are going to be governments or megacorps
with detailed specs and more money. Plus, most shipyards aren't going to
have "standard" equipment big enough for the rare big ship.

>2.  In order to make said tables, what parts of FFS need fixing?

        As little as possible, with one exception. To fit the basic setting
envisioned for Milieu 0, fusion plants need some work.

>3.  Are we requiring backwards compatability with HG? (I assume yes)
>
>In the case of #3, should we just alter FFS to produce exact matches,
>right off the bat (j-drive fuel, for example, or mdrive %s)?

        Well, Don seemed very firm about not changing FF&S. He did agree
that we can tweak it somewhat if absolutely needed, but no major revisions.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.



------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 19:13:35 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <gdw-beta@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin

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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


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   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
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   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
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   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------Everybody's seen Don Perrin's message by now, saying that my big mouth got
me into the hot water. I've got until Friday to come up with a basic working
model of "Fire, Fusion & Steel Light." I need some serious help to do this.
During my talks with Don Perrin this morning, here's the guidance I got:

	1) "Fire, Fusion & Steel" (FF&S) _will be_ the detailed spacecraft design
supplement for MMT, with little change. He doesn't want a wholesale rewrite.
Only if something is seriously broken will it be tweaked. However! If it
does get fixed, it needs those fixes identified NOW so they are incorporated
into the "Light" version. IG will eventually reissue FF&S, and any updates
will be made available on the Net for those who already have it.

	2) Combat will be "High Guard-style," using single-digit ratings for
systems in a Universal Ship Profile, and separate to-hit/to-penetrate tables
instead of tasks. So we need to come up with a way of converting detailed
statistics into single-digit type ratings. But we're not rewriting FF&S to
look like HG. My understanding is that the combat rules will *not* be
straight out of "Book 5, 2nd Edition" as far as actual values, etc., just
that the mechanics themselves will be very similar. As an intermediate step,
the abstracted combat values in "Brilliant Lances" may be a good start for
generating USPs.

	4) The USP really shouldn't grow much bigger -- Don thinks it's probably
too long already. He's talking about coming up with some way to roll ALL the
offensive and defensive systems into a single factor each, i.e. Attack 7,
Defend 5. Just for the basic rules, folks, calm down. Something like
"Brilliant Lances" (and probably "Brilliant Lances") is also being planned,
and they'll use mechanics much like the existing ones, in all their glorious
detail. But a quick firefight in the middle of a roleplaying session
shouldn't break the momentum.

	5) Fusion power plants are one thing that needs fixing in FF&S. One of the
"hooks" in the Milieu 0 setting is the idea of "Fusion Plus." Ok, it's not a
very catchy phrase, but here's the basic idea. The commonly available fusion
plants are big. You really can't build them small enough for a fighter, for
example. The Imperium, with a common TL of 11 but a military TL of 12 has
had a technology breakthrough which allows them to build much smaller plants
that can fit into fighters (or other small craft). The new plants don't
produce more power per unit mass; you can just build them smaller. One of
the reasons many "pocket empires" are willing to join the Imperium is this
technology. 
	So we need to tweak the fusion plant rules enough that it's not practical
to put them into ships much smaller than 100tons prior to TL12. I repeat,
they're not necessarily more efficient, they can just be made smaller after
TL12. I _seriously_ need some inputs on this one, folks.

	6) The variety in armor materials, maneuver drives, etc. will be kept.
However, the basic design rules need to be structured to make design as much
as possible a "Pick a system, deduct its volume from the running total, add
its price, mass and power requirements to the total, and press on."

	7) "Basic Working Model" means all tables basically complete. Prose to make
it look good can be added later, as long as the system is testable now.

	8) If possible, don't pester Don about spacecraft design, he's probably
busy with the combat rules. I get all the hate mail now.

	9) I'll follow discussions on all three lists (Beta, Traveller and XBoat)
as soon as I get resubscribed to the XBoat. If you sent a message on XBoat
before receiving this, I didn't get it. I'll probably get three or four
copies of every message as people echo them to all the lists, but it's
easier and quicker than asking everybody to join just one of the lists for
the discussion. I need everybody's ideas.

	10) I'll keep copies of work-in-progress on my Web site at 

		http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html

	What's there right now isn't yet the latest version, as I'm in the middle
of changes, but I'll get it up soon.


SUMMARY: We're _not_ designing a new system, nor doing wholesale surgery on
FF&S. We're taking the existing rules and coming up with a simplified system
for quick & dirty designs. And we're doing it fast, so there's not much time
to squabble. My basic plan of attack is to convert all the FF&S rules to a
set of tables from which you can pick items. But I need input from
everybody, especially those who're most interested in a basic system.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.




------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 19:16:39 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: FF&S Suggestions

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
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   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
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   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
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   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ---------------------- 
> >POWER PLANTS
> 
>         The one subject where FF&S is open for changes! By now you've read
> Don's message about the nature of fusion plants at TL11 ... too big for
> ships much smaller than 100tons. We've got to come up with some rationale,
> handwaving or not, for this, so we don't get stuck with an arbitrary "before
> TL12 thou shalt not have fusion in small craft." Anybody got any ideas about
> a physics breakthrough in fusion technology that won't necessarily increase
> the power density, but will allow smaller minimum sizes?

Yup, it's very, very simple.  Strong/weak force control.  Dampers
represent this tech, and come in at TL12.  Before that fusion plants are
quantitative improvements on what we might be able to do in the next
century.  After TL12 it's a whole new ball game.
 
- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 19:21:03 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
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   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>,<gdw-beta@qrc.com>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re:  A suggestion

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
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   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
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   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 06:12 pm 6/2/96 -0400, Derek Wildstar wrote:
>merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>> 1.  List the things in HG that are *really* broken.
>
>My suggestion is that Don is giving us the chance to replace High Guard with
>an FF&S-derived system.  THEREFORE, if we can figure out a way to generate
>High-Guard "style" USPs from FF&S equipment and weapons, then we can replace
>everything in one fell swoop.  This allows us to avoid some of the more
>sticky (and time-consuming) High-Guard irregularities.

        That's the goal: create "HG-style" USPs, not a High Guard version of
FF&S. The design system will remain FF&S -- all Light is is a set of
pregenerated FF&S systems.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.




------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 19:27:48 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <gdw-beta@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------Everybody's seen Don Perrin's message by now, saying that my big mouth got
me into the hot water. I've got until Friday to come up with a basic working
model of "Fire, Fusion & Steel Light." I need some serious help to do this.
During my talks with Don Perrin this morning, here's the guidance I got:

	1) "Fire, Fusion & Steel" (FF&S) _will be_ the detailed spacecraft design
supplement for MMT, with little change. He doesn't want a wholesale rewrite.
Only if something is seriously broken will it be tweaked. However! If it
does get fixed, it needs those fixes identified NOW so they are incorporated
into the "Light" version. IG will eventually reissue FF&S, and any updates
will be made available on the Net for those who already have it.

	2) Combat will be "High Guard-style," using single-digit ratings for
systems in a Universal Ship Profile, and separate to-hit/to-penetrate tables
instead of tasks. So we need to come up with a way of converting detailed
statistics into single-digit type ratings. But we're not rewriting FF&S to
look like HG. My understanding is that the combat rules will *not* be
straight out of "Book 5, 2nd Edition" as far as actual values, etc., just
that the mechanics themselves will be very similar. As an intermediate step,
the abstracted combat values in "Brilliant Lances" may be a good start for
generating USPs.

	4) The USP really shouldn't grow much bigger -- Don thinks it's probably
too long already. He's talking about coming up with some way to roll ALL the
offensive and defensive systems into a single factor each, i.e. Attack 7,
Defend 5. Just for the basic rules, folks, calm down. Something like
"Brilliant Lances" (and probably "Brilliant Lances") is also being planned,
and they'll use mechanics much like the existing ones, in all their glorious
detail. But a quick firefight in the middle of a roleplaying session
shouldn't break the momentum.

	5) Fusion power plants are one thing that needs fixing in FF&S. One of the
"hooks" in the Milieu 0 setting is the idea of "Fusion Plus." Ok, it's not a
very catchy phrase, but here's the basic idea. The commonly available fusion
plants are big. You really can't build them small enough for a fighter, for
example. The Imperium, with a common TL of 11 but a military TL of 12 has
had a technology breakthrough which allows them to build much smaller plants
that can fit into fighters (or other small craft). The new plants don't
produce more power per unit mass; you can just build them smaller. One of
the reasons many "pocket empires" are willing to join the Imperium is this
technology. 
	So we need to tweak the fusion plant rules enough that it's not practical
to put them into ships much smaller than 100tons prior to TL12. I repeat,
they're not necessarily more efficient, they can just be made smaller after
TL12. I _seriously_ need some inputs on this one, folks.

	6) The variety in armor materials, maneuver drives, etc. will be kept.
However, the basic design rules need to be structured to make design as much
as possible a "Pick a system, deduct its volume from the running total, add
its price, mass and power requirements to the total, and press on."

	7) "Basic Working Model" means all tables basically complete. Prose to make
it look good can be added later, as long as the system is testable now.

	8) If possible, don't pester Don about spacecraft design, he's probably
busy with the combat rules. I get all the hate mail now.

	9) I'll follow discussions on all three lists (Beta, Traveller and XBoat)
as soon as I get resubscribed to the XBoat. If you sent a message on XBoat
before receiving this, I didn't get it. I'll probably get three or four
copies of every message as people echo them to all the lists, but it's
easier and quicker than asking everybody to join just one of the lists for
the discussion. I need everybody's ideas.

	10) I'll keep copies of work-in-progress on my Web site at 

		http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html

	What's there right now isn't yet the latest version, as I'm in the middle
of changes, but I'll get it up soon.


SUMMARY: We're _not_ designing a new system, nor doing wholesale surgery on
FF&S. We're taking the existing rules and coming up with a simplified system
for quick & dirty designs. And we're doing it fast, so there's not much time
to squabble. My basic plan of attack is to convert all the FF&S rules to a
set of tables from which you can pick items. But I need input from
everybody, especially those who're most interested in a basic system.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.





------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 19:28:08 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <merrick@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
		 <gdw-beta@qrc.com>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: Wow, A lot to do by friday :-)

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 03:50 pm 6/2/96 -0600, merrick@qrc.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>Well, looks like FFSLight has a go ahead.
>
>Making tables of premade stuff a la Book2 should be trivial.  A few
>points:
>
>1.  Should the basic system for the general rules specialize on small
>ships like B2?  In this case we don't need to fill in tables for MGs and
>the like, only up to, say 5000ton ships need be considered.

        Small ships ... I was only planning on going up to about 5,000Td.
Most customers for bigger ships are going to be governments or megacorps
with detailed specs and more money. Plus, most shipyards aren't going to
have "standard" equipment big enough for the rare big ship.

>2.  In order to make said tables, what parts of FFS need fixing?

        As little as possible, with one exception. To fit the basic setting
envisioned for Milieu 0, fusion plants need some work.

>3.  Are we requiring backwards compatability with HG? (I assume yes)
>
>In the case of #3, should we just alter FFS to produce exact matches,
>right off the bat (j-drive fuel, for example, or mdrive %s)?

        Well, Don seemed very firm about not changing FF&S. He did agree
that we can tweak it somewhat if absolutely needed, but no major revisions.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.




------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #41
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 2 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 042

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Undeliverable Message
         2. Undeliverable Message
         3. Re: FF&S Light Challenge
         4. Undeliverable Message
         5. Undeliverable Message
         6. Undeliverable Message
         7. Undeliverable Message
         8. Undeliverable Message
         9. Undeliverable Message

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 19:28:29 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
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   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
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   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: FF&S Suggestions

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
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   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
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   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ---------------------- 
> >POWER PLANTS
> 
>         The one subject where FF&S is open for changes! By now you've read
> Don's message about the nature of fusion plants at TL11 ... too big for
> ships much smaller than 100tons. We've got to come up with some rationale,
> handwaving or not, for this, so we don't get stuck with an arbitrary "before
> TL12 thou shalt not have fusion in small craft." Anybody got any ideas about
> a physics breakthrough in fusion technology that won't necessarily increase
> the power density, but will allow smaller minimum sizes?

Yup, it's very, very simple.  Strong/weak force control.  Dampers
represent this tech, and come in at TL12.  Before that fusion plants are
quantitative improvements on what we might be able to do in the next
century.  After TL12 it's a whole new ball game.
 
- -Merrick



------------------------------

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Subject:       Re:  A suggestion

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 06:12 pm 6/2/96 -0400, Derek Wildstar wrote:
>merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>> 1.  List the things in HG that are *really* broken.
>
>My suggestion is that Don is giving us the chance to replace High Guard with
>an FF&S-derived system.  THEREFORE, if we can figure out a way to generate
>High-Guard "style" USPs from FF&S equipment and weapons, then we can replace
>everything in one fell swoop.  This allows us to avoid some of the more
>sticky (and time-consuming) High-Guard irregularities.

        That's the goal: create "HG-style" USPs, not a High Guard version of
FF&S. The design system will remain FF&S -- all Light is is a set of
pregenerated FF&S systems.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.





------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 18:37:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: FF&S Light Challenge

On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> I don't think that the design system should be limited to people that
> can't add or multiply :-)  HG's most complicated math is to figure,
> what, energy points?  Agility?  The actual design process has no more
> than taking %s.

I am not talking about math so much as the process itself.  That is, the 
number of steps involved,the number of tables involved, etc.  But, if you 
read the rest of my earlier reply, you know that I came to the conclusion 
that what David Golden is proposing is indeed appropriate for beginners.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <gdw-beta@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
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Subject:       FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------Everybody's seen Don Perrin's message by now, saying that my big mouth got
me into the hot water. I've got until Friday to come up with a basic working
model of "Fire, Fusion & Steel Light." I need some serious help to do this.
During my talks with Don Perrin this morning, here's the guidance I got:

	1) "Fire, Fusion & Steel" (FF&S) _will be_ the detailed spacecraft design
supplement for MMT, with little change. He doesn't want a wholesale rewrite.
Only if something is seriously broken will it be tweaked. However! If it
does get fixed, it needs those fixes identified NOW so they are incorporated
into the "Light" version. IG will eventually reissue FF&S, and any updates
will be made available on the Net for those who already have it.

	2) Combat will be "High Guard-style," using single-digit ratings for
systems in a Universal Ship Profile, and separate to-hit/to-penetrate tables
instead of tasks. So we need to come up with a way of converting detailed
statistics into single-digit type ratings. But we're not rewriting FF&S to
look like HG. My understanding is that the combat rules will *not* be
straight out of "Book 5, 2nd Edition" as far as actual values, etc., just
that the mechanics themselves will be very similar. As an intermediate step,
the abstracted combat values in "Brilliant Lances" may be a good start for
generating USPs.

	4) The USP really shouldn't grow much bigger -- Don thinks it's probably
too long already. He's talking about coming up with some way to roll ALL the
offensive and defensive systems into a single factor each, i.e. Attack 7,
Defend 5. Just for the basic rules, folks, calm down. Something like
"Brilliant Lances" (and probably "Brilliant Lances") is also being planned,
and they'll use mechanics much like the existing ones, in all their glorious
detail. But a quick firefight in the middle of a roleplaying session
shouldn't break the momentum.

	5) Fusion power plants are one thing that needs fixing in FF&S. One of the
"hooks" in the Milieu 0 setting is the idea of "Fusion Plus." Ok, it's not a
very catchy phrase, but here's the basic idea. The commonly available fusion
plants are big. You really can't build them small enough for a fighter, for
example. The Imperium, with a common TL of 11 but a military TL of 12 has
had a technology breakthrough which allows them to build much smaller plants
that can fit into fighters (or other small craft). The new plants don't
produce more power per unit mass; you can just build them smaller. One of
the reasons many "pocket empires" are willing to join the Imperium is this
technology. 
	So we need to tweak the fusion plant rules enough that it's not practical
to put them into ships much smaller than 100tons prior to TL12. I repeat,
they're not necessarily more efficient, they can just be made smaller after
TL12. I _seriously_ need some inputs on this one, folks.

	6) The variety in armor materials, maneuver drives, etc. will be kept.
However, the basic design rules need to be structured to make design as much
as possible a "Pick a system, deduct its volume from the running total, add
its price, mass and power requirements to the total, and press on."

	7) "Basic Working Model" means all tables basically complete. Prose to make
it look good can be added later, as long as the system is testable now.

	8) If possible, don't pester Don about spacecraft design, he's probably
busy with the combat rules. I get all the hate mail now.

	9) I'll follow discussions on all three lists (Beta, Traveller and XBoat)
as soon as I get resubscribed to the XBoat. If you sent a message on XBoat
before receiving this, I didn't get it. I'll probably get three or four
copies of every message as people echo them to all the lists, but it's
easier and quicker than asking everybody to join just one of the lists for
the discussion. I need everybody's ideas.

	10) I'll keep copies of work-in-progress on my Web site at 

		http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html

	What's there right now isn't yet the latest version, as I'm in the middle
of changes, but I'll get it up soon.


SUMMARY: We're _not_ designing a new system, nor doing wholesale surgery on
FF&S. We're taking the existing rules and coming up with a simplified system
for quick & dirty designs. And we're doing it fast, so there's not much time
to squabble. My basic plan of attack is to convert all the FF&S rules to a
set of tables from which you can pick items. But I need input from
everybody, especially those who're most interested in a basic system.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.






------------------------------

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>,<gdw-beta@qrc.com>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re:  A suggestion

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 06:12 pm 6/2/96 -0400, Derek Wildstar wrote:
>merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>> 1.  List the things in HG that are *really* broken.
>
>My suggestion is that Don is giving us the chance to replace High Guard with
>an FF&S-derived system.  THEREFORE, if we can figure out a way to generate
>High-Guard "style" USPs from FF&S equipment and weapons, then we can replace
>everything in one fell swoop.  This allows us to avoid some of the more
>sticky (and time-consuming) High-Guard irregularities.

        That's the goal: create "HG-style" USPs, not a High Guard version of
FF&S. The design system will remain FF&S -- all Light is is a set of
pregenerated FF&S systems.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.






------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 19:45:29 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <merrick@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
		 <gdw-beta@qrc.com>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: Wow, A lot to do by friday :-)

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 03:50 pm 6/2/96 -0600, merrick@qrc.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>Well, looks like FFSLight has a go ahead.
>
>Making tables of premade stuff a la Book2 should be trivial.  A few
>points:
>
>1.  Should the basic system for the general rules specialize on small
>ships like B2?  In this case we don't need to fill in tables for MGs and
>the like, only up to, say 5000ton ships need be considered.

        Small ships ... I was only planning on going up to about 5,000Td.
Most customers for bigger ships are going to be governments or megacorps
with detailed specs and more money. Plus, most shipyards aren't going to
have "standard" equipment big enough for the rare big ship.

>2.  In order to make said tables, what parts of FFS need fixing?

        As little as possible, with one exception. To fit the basic setting
envisioned for Milieu 0, fusion plants need some work.

>3.  Are we requiring backwards compatability with HG? (I assume yes)
>
>In the case of #3, should we just alter FFS to produce exact matches,
>right off the bat (j-drive fuel, for example, or mdrive %s)?

        Well, Don seemed very firm about not changing FF&S. He did agree
that we can tweak it somewhat if absolutely needed, but no major revisions.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.





------------------------------

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Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 19:45:49 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

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Subject:       Re: FF&S Suggestions

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ---------------------- 
> >POWER PLANTS
> 
>         The one subject where FF&S is open for changes! By now you've read
> Don's message about the nature of fusion plants at TL11 ... too big for
> ships much smaller than 100tons. We've got to come up with some rationale,
> handwaving or not, for this, so we don't get stuck with an arbitrary "before
> TL12 thou shalt not have fusion in small craft." Anybody got any ideas about
> a physics breakthrough in fusion technology that won't necessarily increase
> the power density, but will allow smaller minimum sizes?

Yup, it's very, very simple.  Strong/weak force control.  Dampers
represent this tech, and come in at TL12.  Before that fusion plants are
quantitative improvements on what we might be able to do in the next
century.  After TL12 it's a whole new ball game.
 
- -Merrick




------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 19:48:02 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: FF&S Light Challenge

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> I don't think that the design system should be limited to people that
> can't add or multiply :-)  HG's most complicated math is to figure,
> what, energy points?  Agility?  The actual design process has no more
> than taking %s.

I am not talking about math so much as the process itself.  That is, the 
number of steps involved,the number of tables involved, etc.  But, if you 
read the rest of my earlier reply, you know that I came to the conclusion 
that what David Golden is proposing is indeed appropriate for beginners.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)




------------------------------

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <gdw-beta@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
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Subject:       FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------Everybody's seen Don Perrin's message by now, saying that my big mouth got
me into the hot water. I've got until Friday to come up with a basic working
model of "Fire, Fusion & Steel Light." I need some serious help to do this.
During my talks with Don Perrin this morning, here's the guidance I got:

	1) "Fire, Fusion & Steel" (FF&S) _will be_ the detailed spacecraft design
supplement for MMT, with little change. He doesn't want a wholesale rewrite.
Only if something is seriously broken will it be tweaked. However! If it
does get fixed, it needs those fixes identified NOW so they are incorporated
into the "Light" version. IG will eventually reissue FF&S, and any updates
will be made available on the Net for those who already have it.

	2) Combat will be "High Guard-style," using single-digit ratings for
systems in a Universal Ship Profile, and separate to-hit/to-penetrate tables
instead of tasks. So we need to come up with a way of converting detailed
statistics into single-digit type ratings. But we're not rewriting FF&S to
look like HG. My understanding is that the combat rules will *not* be
straight out of "Book 5, 2nd Edition" as far as actual values, etc., just
that the mechanics themselves will be very similar. As an intermediate step,
the abstracted combat values in "Brilliant Lances" may be a good start for
generating USPs.

	4) The USP really shouldn't grow much bigger -- Don thinks it's probably
too long already. He's talking about coming up with some way to roll ALL the
offensive and defensive systems into a single factor each, i.e. Attack 7,
Defend 5. Just for the basic rules, folks, calm down. Something like
"Brilliant Lances" (and probably "Brilliant Lances") is also being planned,
and they'll use mechanics much like the existing ones, in all their glorious
detail. But a quick firefight in the middle of a roleplaying session
shouldn't break the momentum.

	5) Fusion power plants are one thing that needs fixing in FF&S. One of the
"hooks" in the Milieu 0 setting is the idea of "Fusion Plus." Ok, it's not a
very catchy phrase, but here's the basic idea. The commonly available fusion
plants are big. You really can't build them small enough for a fighter, for
example. The Imperium, with a common TL of 11 but a military TL of 12 has
had a technology breakthrough which allows them to build much smaller plants
that can fit into fighters (or other small craft). The new plants don't
produce more power per unit mass; you can just build them smaller. One of
the reasons many "pocket empires" are willing to join the Imperium is this
technology. 
	So we need to tweak the fusion plant rules enough that it's not practical
to put them into ships much smaller than 100tons prior to TL12. I repeat,
they're not necessarily more efficient, they can just be made smaller after
TL12. I _seriously_ need some inputs on this one, folks.

	6) The variety in armor materials, maneuver drives, etc. will be kept.
However, the basic design rules need to be structured to make design as much
as possible a "Pick a system, deduct its volume from the running total, add
its price, mass and power requirements to the total, and press on."

	7) "Basic Working Model" means all tables basically complete. Prose to make
it look good can be added later, as long as the system is testable now.

	8) If possible, don't pester Don about spacecraft design, he's probably
busy with the combat rules. I get all the hate mail now.

	9) I'll follow discussions on all three lists (Beta, Traveller and XBoat)
as soon as I get resubscribed to the XBoat. If you sent a message on XBoat
before receiving this, I didn't get it. I'll probably get three or four
copies of every message as people echo them to all the lists, but it's
easier and quicker than asking everybody to join just one of the lists for
the discussion. I need everybody's ideas.

	10) I'll keep copies of work-in-progress on my Web site at 

		http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html

	What's there right now isn't yet the latest version, as I'm in the middle
of changes, but I'll get it up soon.


SUMMARY: We're _not_ designing a new system, nor doing wholesale surgery on
FF&S. We're taking the existing rules and coming up with a simplified system
for quick & dirty designs. And we're doing it fast, so there's not much time
to squabble. My basic plan of attack is to convert all the FF&S rules to a
set of tables from which you can pick items. But I need input from
everybody, especially those who're most interested in a basic system.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.







------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #42
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 2 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 043

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Undeliverable Message
         2. Undeliverable Message
         3. Undeliverable Message
         4. Undeliverable Message
         5. Re: Re: FF&S Suggestions
         6. Undeliverable Message
         7. Starship Design Et al
         8. Undeliverable Message

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 19:55:57 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <merrick@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
		 <gdw-beta@qrc.com>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: Wow, A lot to do by friday :-)

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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 03:50 pm 6/2/96 -0600, merrick@qrc.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>Well, looks like FFSLight has a go ahead.
>
>Making tables of premade stuff a la Book2 should be trivial.  A few
>points:
>
>1.  Should the basic system for the general rules specialize on small
>ships like B2?  In this case we don't need to fill in tables for MGs and
>the like, only up to, say 5000ton ships need be considered.

        Small ships ... I was only planning on going up to about 5,000Td.
Most customers for bigger ships are going to be governments or megacorps
with detailed specs and more money. Plus, most shipyards aren't going to
have "standard" equipment big enough for the rare big ship.

>2.  In order to make said tables, what parts of FFS need fixing?

        As little as possible, with one exception. To fit the basic setting
envisioned for Milieu 0, fusion plants need some work.

>3.  Are we requiring backwards compatability with HG? (I assume yes)
>
>In the case of #3, should we just alter FFS to produce exact matches,
>right off the bat (j-drive fuel, for example, or mdrive %s)?

        Well, Don seemed very firm about not changing FF&S. He did agree
that we can tweak it somewhat if absolutely needed, but no major revisions.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.






------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 19:56:28 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
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Subject:       Undeliverable Message

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>,<gdw-beta@qrc.com>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re:  A suggestion

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 06:12 pm 6/2/96 -0400, Derek Wildstar wrote:
>merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>> 1.  List the things in HG that are *really* broken.
>
>My suggestion is that Don is giving us the chance to replace High Guard with
>an FF&S-derived system.  THEREFORE, if we can figure out a way to generate
>High-Guard "style" USPs from FF&S equipment and weapons, then we can replace
>everything in one fell swoop.  This allows us to avoid some of the more
>sticky (and time-consuming) High-Guard irregularities.

        That's the goal: create "HG-style" USPs, not a High Guard version of
FF&S. The design system will remain FF&S -- all Light is is a set of
pregenerated FF&S systems.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.







------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 19:57:38 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: FF&S Suggestions

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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ---------------------- 
> >POWER PLANTS
> 
>         The one subject where FF&S is open for changes! By now you've read
> Don's message about the nature of fusion plants at TL11 ... too big for
> ships much smaller than 100tons. We've got to come up with some rationale,
> handwaving or not, for this, so we don't get stuck with an arbitrary "before
> TL12 thou shalt not have fusion in small craft." Anybody got any ideas about
> a physics breakthrough in fusion technology that won't necessarily increase
> the power density, but will allow smaller minimum sizes?

Yup, it's very, very simple.  Strong/weak force control.  Dampers
represent this tech, and come in at TL12.  Before that fusion plants are
quantitative improvements on what we might be able to do in the next
century.  After TL12 it's a whole new ball game.
 
- -Merrick





------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 20:06:13 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

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Cc:            
Subject:       Re: FF&S Light Challenge

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> I don't think that the design system should be limited to people that
> can't add or multiply :-)  HG's most complicated math is to figure,
> what, energy points?  Agility?  The actual design process has no more
> than taking %s.

I am not talking about math so much as the process itself.  That is, the 
number of steps involved,the number of tables involved, etc.  But, if you 
read the rest of my earlier reply, you know that I came to the conclusion 
that what David Golden is proposing is indeed appropriate for beginners.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)





------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 02 Jun 1996 19:54:18 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: FF&S Suggestions

>        Well, even a custom designed system will probably be designed around
>mostly standard-type parts. But if you just define repair costs as a
>fraction of the original cost, then the higher original cost will drive
>higher repair costs without a separate rule.

Possibly.  But consider how repairs work.  (Details thanks to an aviation
tech I know.)

Airplane lands with problems: that radar isn't working properly.

Tech pulls the three modules most likely to be broken and tests system.  If
it doesn't work, she repeats it with the next three modules.  Eventually it
works.

All pulled modules are sent back to the factory for reconditioning.  (Even
the ones that were ok go back - less chance of a human error, and they may
have been damaged by being pulled.)

The tech doesn't attempt to repair the broken module.  Too much time,
requires equipment sho doesn't have, parts she doesn't have, and probably
requires knowledge she doesn't have.  besides, it would void the warranty.


This is what I see starport repairs as like.  Thus, opening up the standard
module to repair/tweak it is a possibility, but the players will have to do
it themselves, or hunt for a good (and expensive) technician.


If you want more justification, keep in mind that the actual construction of
each standard module is protected by patents (and possibly black epoxy and
anti-tampering devices, depending on how paranoid the manufacturer is :-) ). 
An LSP avionics package meets the same specs as a General Products one, but
its interior circuitry will be different.  (Rather like chips nowadays: same
specs, different masks.)

------------------------------

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <merrick@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
		 <gdw-beta@qrc.com>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: Wow, A lot to do by friday :-)

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 03:50 pm 6/2/96 -0600, merrick@qrc.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>Well, looks like FFSLight has a go ahead.
>
>Making tables of premade stuff a la Book2 should be trivial.  A few
>points:
>
>1.  Should the basic system for the general rules specialize on small
>ships like B2?  In this case we don't need to fill in tables for MGs and
>the like, only up to, say 5000ton ships need be considered.

        Small ships ... I was only planning on going up to about 5,000Td.
Most customers for bigger ships are going to be governments or megacorps
with detailed specs and more money. Plus, most shipyards aren't going to
have "standard" equipment big enough for the rare big ship.

>2.  In order to make said tables, what parts of FFS need fixing?

        As little as possible, with one exception. To fit the basic setting
envisioned for Milieu 0, fusion plants need some work.

>3.  Are we requiring backwards compatability with HG? (I assume yes)
>
>In the case of #3, should we just alter FFS to produce exact matches,
>right off the bat (j-drive fuel, for example, or mdrive %s)?

        Well, Don seemed very firm about not changing FF&S. He did agree
that we can tweak it somewhat if absolutely needed, but no major revisions.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.







------------------------------

From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 19:09:31 -0500
Subject: Starship Design Et al

Gentlemen,

Before we go off and cause problems for Imperial Games in our haste to
shoehorn FF&S into something that might use I make the following points.

1. Where does Greg Porter's equipment guide(which is to include personal
weapons) figure into this? From messages that he has posted, the tech will
have a "Mr Fusion" type power for personal equipment and weapons. Any of you
that have used his "Guns, Guns, Guns" and "More Guns" know that weapons
designed with G^3 are 180 degrees out of phase with FF&S. If we do not get
some input from Greg we may have a Starship design and personal
weapons/equipment that are not seamless in their design and effects. Ie
starships using FF&S for starship weapons/equipment and personal
equipment(Read vehicles)/weapons using what Greg Porters equipment guide
will use. 

2. Let fix the problems with FF&S before we shove it into Imperial Games
Starship creation system. If that means that it will not be ready by this
friday so be it.
        FF&S Problems/Issues IMHO
        A. Homopolar Generators(Not in my starships!)
        B. Beam Pointers(Why, what is there use(s))
        C. Violation of the Laws Of Thermodynamics(ie liquid gases for
barrel/ignition chamber coolants)
        D. Firecontrol System Issues/Problems (Ie integration and master FC
system)
        E. Grav Focussed Lasers cludge(Hey but it makes for neat wargame of
starships)
        F. Sensors Antennae issues (Ie May West Blowups that have no
provision for rotation/stabilization)
        G. Fusion/Meson Guns Range and Damage issues.
        H. Hull Armor Issues (ie too great of numbers)
        I. Heplars Thrusters Issues (Hey but it makes for neat wargame of
starships)
        J. CPR Weapons Issues (Binary Propellants, Gravitic Recoil Compensation)
        K. Crew Requirements(crew numbers out of sync with Year 0 designed
ships)
        L. Electronic Warefare issues(Ie Ill defined and implemented)
        M. Neat Wargame cludges(this for a RPG not a war/board game)


Sinbad Sam
AI (Anally Inverted) Virus Black Curtain Expansion Coordinator
sinbad@dfw.net


------------------------------

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <gdw-beta@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
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Subject:       FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------Everybody's seen Don Perrin's message by now, saying that my big mouth got
me into the hot water. I've got until Friday to come up with a basic working
model of "Fire, Fusion & Steel Light." I need some serious help to do this.
During my talks with Don Perrin this morning, here's the guidance I got:

	1) "Fire, Fusion & Steel" (FF&S) _will be_ the detailed spacecraft design
supplement for MMT, with little change. He doesn't want a wholesale rewrite.
Only if something is seriously broken will it be tweaked. However! If it
does get fixed, it needs those fixes identified NOW so they are incorporated
into the "Light" version. IG will eventually reissue FF&S, and any updates
will be made available on the Net for those who already have it.

	2) Combat will be "High Guard-style," using single-digit ratings for
systems in a Universal Ship Profile, and separate to-hit/to-penetrate tables
instead of tasks. So we need to come up with a way of converting detailed
statistics into single-digit type ratings. But we're not rewriting FF&S to
look like HG. My understanding is that the combat rules will *not* be
straight out of "Book 5, 2nd Edition" as far as actual values, etc., just
that the mechanics themselves will be very similar. As an intermediate step,
the abstracted combat values in "Brilliant Lances" may be a good start for
generating USPs.

	4) The USP really shouldn't grow much bigger -- Don thinks it's probably
too long already. He's talking about coming up with some way to roll ALL the
offensive and defensive systems into a single factor each, i.e. Attack 7,
Defend 5. Just for the basic rules, folks, calm down. Something like
"Brilliant Lances" (and probably "Brilliant Lances") is also being planned,
and they'll use mechanics much like the existing ones, in all their glorious
detail. But a quick firefight in the middle of a roleplaying session
shouldn't break the momentum.

	5) Fusion power plants are one thing that needs fixing in FF&S. One of the
"hooks" in the Milieu 0 setting is the idea of "Fusion Plus." Ok, it's not a
very catchy phrase, but here's the basic idea. The commonly available fusion
plants are big. You really can't build them small enough for a fighter, for
example. The Imperium, with a common TL of 11 but a military TL of 12 has
had a technology breakthrough which allows them to build much smaller plants
that can fit into fighters (or other small craft). The new plants don't
produce more power per unit mass; you can just build them smaller. One of
the reasons many "pocket empires" are willing to join the Imperium is this
technology. 
	So we need to tweak the fusion plant rules enough that it's not practical
to put them into ships much smaller than 100tons prior to TL12. I repeat,
they're not necessarily more efficient, they can just be made smaller after
TL12. I _seriously_ need some inputs on this one, folks.

	6) The variety in armor materials, maneuver drives, etc. will be kept.
However, the basic design rules need to be structured to make design as much
as possible a "Pick a system, deduct its volume from the running total, add
its price, mass and power requirements to the total, and press on."

	7) "Basic Working Model" means all tables basically complete. Prose to make
it look good can be added later, as long as the system is testable now.

	8) If possible, don't pester Don about spacecraft design, he's probably
busy with the combat rules. I get all the hate mail now.

	9) I'll follow discussions on all three lists (Beta, Traveller and XBoat)
as soon as I get resubscribed to the XBoat. If you sent a message on XBoat
before receiving this, I didn't get it. I'll probably get three or four
copies of every message as people echo them to all the lists, but it's
easier and quicker than asking everybody to join just one of the lists for
the discussion. I need everybody's ideas.

	10) I'll keep copies of work-in-progress on my Web site at 

		http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html

	What's there right now isn't yet the latest version, as I'm in the middle
of changes, but I'll get it up soon.


SUMMARY: We're _not_ designing a new system, nor doing wholesale surgery on
FF&S. We're taking the existing rules and coming up with a simplified system
for quick & dirty designs. And we're doing it fast, so there's not much time
to squabble. My basic plan of attack is to convert all the FF&S rules to a
set of tables from which you can pick items. But I need input from
everybody, especially those who're most interested in a basic system.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.








------------------------------

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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 2 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 044

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Undeliverable Message
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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>,<gdw-beta@qrc.com>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re:  A suggestion

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 06:12 pm 6/2/96 -0400, Derek Wildstar wrote:
>merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>> 1.  List the things in HG that are *really* broken.
>
>My suggestion is that Don is giving us the chance to replace High Guard with
>an FF&S-derived system.  THEREFORE, if we can figure out a way to generate
>High-Guard "style" USPs from FF&S equipment and weapons, then we can replace
>everything in one fell swoop.  This allows us to avoid some of the more
>sticky (and time-consuming) High-Guard irregularities.

        That's the goal: create "HG-style" USPs, not a High Guard version of
FF&S. The design system will remain FF&S -- all Light is is a set of
pregenerated FF&S systems.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.








------------------------------

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
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Subject:       Re: FF&S Suggestions

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ---------------------- 
> >POWER PLANTS
> 
>         The one subject where FF&S is open for changes! By now you've read
> Don's message about the nature of fusion plants at TL11 ... too big for
> ships much smaller than 100tons. We've got to come up with some rationale,
> handwaving or not, for this, so we don't get stuck with an arbitrary "before
> TL12 thou shalt not have fusion in small craft." Anybody got any ideas about
> a physics breakthrough in fusion technology that won't necessarily increase
> the power density, but will allow smaller minimum sizes?

Yup, it's very, very simple.  Strong/weak force control.  Dampers
represent this tech, and come in at TL12.  Before that fusion plants are
quantitative improvements on what we might be able to do in the next
century.  After TL12 it's a whole new ball game.
 
- -Merrick






------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 02 Jun 1996 20:06:00 GMT
Subject: Re: FF&S Lite

Much praise and caffeine to Dave for taking this on!

(Yike - only 3 minutes left online - pls forgive typoes.)

A quick question: 
Can we send advice for the combat system?  After all, we should structure the
basic system so that its numbers match those needed by the combat system  Or
are you doing that automatically.



One more comment - another reason for keeping size small is that a group
interested in large ships is probably also interested enough to buy the
Starships game (BL/BR or whatever its called.)

Outta time.  Later...

------------------------------

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Subject:       Re: FF&S Light Challenge

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> I don't think that the design system should be limited to people that
> can't add or multiply :-)  HG's most complicated math is to figure,
> what, energy points?  Agility?  The actual design process has no more
> than taking %s.

I am not talking about math so much as the process itself.  That is, the 
number of steps involved,the number of tables involved, etc.  But, if you 
read the rest of my earlier reply, you know that I came to the conclusion 
that what David Golden is proposing is indeed appropriate for beginners.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)






------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 20:19:14 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <gdw-beta@quark.qrc.com>,<hiwg-list@fwe.com>
		 <dperrin@mag7.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
		 <BTRC@qrc.com>
Cc:            <nimrod@dfw.net>
Subject:       Starship Design Et al

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------Gentlemen,

Before we go off and cause problems for Imperial Games in our haste to
shoehorn FF&S into something that might use I make the following points.

1. Where does Greg Porter's equipment guide(which is to include personal
weapons) figure into this? From messages that he has posted, the tech will
have a "Mr Fusion" type power for personal equipment and weapons. Any of you
that have used his "Guns, Guns, Guns" and "More Guns" know that weapons
designed with G^3 are 180 degrees out of phase with FF&S. If we do not get
some input from Greg we may have a Starship design and personal
weapons/equipment that are not seamless in their design and effects. Ie
starships using FF&S for starship weapons/equipment and personal
equipment(Read vehicles)/weapons using what Greg Porters equipment guide
will use. 

2. Let fix the problems with FF&S before we shove it into Imperial Games
Starship creation system. If that means that it will not be ready by this
friday so be it.
        FF&S Problems/Issues IMHO
        A. Homopolar Generators(Not in my starships!)
        B. Beam Pointers(Why, what is there use(s))
        C. Violation of the Laws Of Thermodynamics(ie liquid gases for
barrel/ignition chamber coolants)
        D. Firecontrol System Issues/Problems (Ie integration and master FC
system)
        E. Grav Focussed Lasers cludge(Hey but it makes for neat wargame of
starships)
        F. Sensors Antennae issues (Ie May West Blowups that have no
provision for rotation/stabilization)
        G. Fusion/Meson Guns Range and Damage issues.
        H. Hull Armor Issues (ie too great of numbers)
        I. Heplars Thrusters Issues (Hey but it makes for neat wargame of
starships)
        J. CPR Weapons Issues (Binary Propellants, Gravitic Recoil Compensation)
        K. Crew Requirements(crew numbers out of sync with Year 0 designed
ships)
        L. Electronic Warefare issues(Ie Ill defined and implemented)
        M. Neat Wargame cludges(this for a RPG not a war/board game)


Sinbad Sam
AI (Anally Inverted) Virus Black Curtain Expansion Coordinator
sinbad@dfw.net



------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 20:20:08 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <goldendj@usa.net>
Cc:            <gdw-beta@qrc.com>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject:       Re: Re: FF&S Suggestions

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ---------------------->        Well, even a custom designed system will probably be designed around
>mostly standard-type parts. But if you just define repair costs as a
>fraction of the original cost, then the higher original cost will drive
>higher repair costs without a separate rule.

Possibly.  But consider how repairs work.  (Details thanks to an aviation
tech I know.)

Airplane lands with problems: that radar isn't working properly.

Tech pulls the three modules most likely to be broken and tests system.  If
it doesn't work, she repeats it with the next three modules.  Eventually it
works.

All pulled modules are sent back to the factory for reconditioning.  (Even
the ones that were ok go back - less chance of a human error, and they may
have been damaged by being pulled.)

The tech doesn't attempt to repair the broken module.  Too much time,
requires equipment sho doesn't have, parts she doesn't have, and probably
requires knowledge she doesn't have.  besides, it would void the warranty.


This is what I see starport repairs as like.  Thus, opening up the standard
module to repair/tweak it is a possibility, but the players will have to do
it themselves, or hunt for a good (and expensive) technician.


If you want more justification, keep in mind that the actual construction of
each standard module is protected by patents (and possibly black epoxy and
anti-tampering devices, depending on how paranoid the manufacturer is :-) ). 
An LSP avionics package meets the same specs as a General Products one, but
its interior circuitry will be different.  (Rather like chips nowadays: same
specs, different masks.)


------------------------------

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <merrick@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
		 <gdw-beta@qrc.com>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: Wow, A lot to do by friday :-)

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 03:50 pm 6/2/96 -0600, merrick@qrc.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>Well, looks like FFSLight has a go ahead.
>
>Making tables of premade stuff a la Book2 should be trivial.  A few
>points:
>
>1.  Should the basic system for the general rules specialize on small
>ships like B2?  In this case we don't need to fill in tables for MGs and
>the like, only up to, say 5000ton ships need be considered.

        Small ships ... I was only planning on going up to about 5,000Td.
Most customers for bigger ships are going to be governments or megacorps
with detailed specs and more money. Plus, most shipyards aren't going to
have "standard" equipment big enough for the rare big ship.

>2.  In order to make said tables, what parts of FFS need fixing?

        As little as possible, with one exception. To fit the basic setting
envisioned for Milieu 0, fusion plants need some work.

>3.  Are we requiring backwards compatability with HG? (I assume yes)
>
>In the case of #3, should we just alter FFS to produce exact matches,
>right off the bat (j-drive fuel, for example, or mdrive %s)?

        Well, Don seemed very firm about not changing FF&S. He did agree
that we can tweak it somewhat if absolutely needed, but no major revisions.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.








------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 20:29:53 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: FF&S Lite

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------Much praise and caffeine to Dave for taking this on!

(Yike - only 3 minutes left online - pls forgive typoes.)

A quick question: 
Can we send advice for the combat system?  After all, we should structure the
basic system so that its numbers match those needed by the combat system  Or
are you doing that automatically.



One more comment - another reason for keeping size small is that a group
interested in large ships is probably also interested enough to buy the
Starships game (BL/BR or whatever its called.)

Outta time.  Later...


------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 20:30:22 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
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Subject:       Undeliverable Message

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <goldendj@usa.net>
Cc:            <gdw-beta@qrc.com>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject:       Re: Re: FF&S Suggestions

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ---------------------->        Well, even a custom designed system will probably be designed around
>mostly standard-type parts. But if you just define repair costs as a
>fraction of the original cost, then the higher original cost will drive
>higher repair costs without a separate rule.

Possibly.  But consider how repairs work.  (Details thanks to an aviation
tech I know.)

Airplane lands with problems: that radar isn't working properly.

Tech pulls the three modules most likely to be broken and tests system.  If
it doesn't work, she repeats it with the next three modules.  Eventually it
works.

All pulled modules are sent back to the factory for reconditioning.  (Even
the ones that were ok go back - less chance of a human error, and they may
have been damaged by being pulled.)

The tech doesn't attempt to repair the broken module.  Too much time,
requires equipment sho doesn't have, parts she doesn't have, and probably
requires knowledge she doesn't have.  besides, it would void the warranty.


This is what I see starport repairs as like.  Thus, opening up the standard
module to repair/tweak it is a possibility, but the players will have to do
it themselves, or hunt for a good (and expensive) technician.


If you want more justification, keep in mind that the actual construction of
each standard module is protected by patents (and possibly black epoxy and
anti-tampering devices, depending on how paranoid the manufacturer is :-) ). 
An LSP avionics package meets the same specs as a General Products one, but
its interior circuitry will be different.  (Rather like chips nowadays: same
specs, different masks.)



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #44
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 2 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 045

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Undeliverable Message
         2. Undeliverable Message
         3. Undeliverable Message
         4. Undeliverable Message
         5. Undeliverable Message

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
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Subject: Undeliverable Message

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: FF&S Light Challenge

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> I don't think that the design system should be limited to people that
> can't add or multiply :-)  HG's most complicated math is to figure,
> what, energy points?  Agility?  The actual design process has no more
> than taking %s.

I am not talking about math so much as the process itself.  That is, the 
number of steps involved,the number of tables involved, etc.  But, if you 
read the rest of my earlier reply, you know that I came to the conclusion 
that what David Golden is proposing is indeed appropriate for beginners.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)







------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 20:36:59 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
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Subject:       Undeliverable Message

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <merrick@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
		 <gdw-beta@qrc.com>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: Wow, A lot to do by friday :-)

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 03:50 pm 6/2/96 -0600, merrick@qrc.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>Well, looks like FFSLight has a go ahead.
>
>Making tables of premade stuff a la Book2 should be trivial.  A few
>points:
>
>1.  Should the basic system for the general rules specialize on small
>ships like B2?  In this case we don't need to fill in tables for MGs and
>the like, only up to, say 5000ton ships need be considered.

        Small ships ... I was only planning on going up to about 5,000Td.
Most customers for bigger ships are going to be governments or megacorps
with detailed specs and more money. Plus, most shipyards aren't going to
have "standard" equipment big enough for the rare big ship.

>2.  In order to make said tables, what parts of FFS need fixing?

        As little as possible, with one exception. To fit the basic setting
envisioned for Milieu 0, fusion plants need some work.

>3.  Are we requiring backwards compatability with HG? (I assume yes)
>
>In the case of #3, should we just alter FFS to produce exact matches,
>right off the bat (j-drive fuel, for example, or mdrive %s)?

        Well, Don seemed very firm about not changing FF&S. He did agree
that we can tweak it somewhat if absolutely needed, but no major revisions.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.









------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 20:38:27 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <gdw-beta@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------Everybody's seen Don Perrin's message by now, saying that my big mouth got
me into the hot water. I've got until Friday to come up with a basic working
model of "Fire, Fusion & Steel Light." I need some serious help to do this.
During my talks with Don Perrin this morning, here's the guidance I got:

	1) "Fire, Fusion & Steel" (FF&S) _will be_ the detailed spacecraft design
supplement for MMT, with little change. He doesn't want a wholesale rewrite.
Only if something is seriously broken will it be tweaked. However! If it
does get fixed, it needs those fixes identified NOW so they are incorporated
into the "Light" version. IG will eventually reissue FF&S, and any updates
will be made available on the Net for those who already have it.

	2) Combat will be "High Guard-style," using single-digit ratings for
systems in a Universal Ship Profile, and separate to-hit/to-penetrate tables
instead of tasks. So we need to come up with a way of converting detailed
statistics into single-digit type ratings. But we're not rewriting FF&S to
look like HG. My understanding is that the combat rules will *not* be
straight out of "Book 5, 2nd Edition" as far as actual values, etc., just
that the mechanics themselves will be very similar. As an intermediate step,
the abstracted combat values in "Brilliant Lances" may be a good start for
generating USPs.

	4) The USP really shouldn't grow much bigger -- Don thinks it's probably
too long already. He's talking about coming up with some way to roll ALL the
offensive and defensive systems into a single factor each, i.e. Attack 7,
Defend 5. Just for the basic rules, folks, calm down. Something like
"Brilliant Lances" (and probably "Brilliant Lances") is also being planned,
and they'll use mechanics much like the existing ones, in all their glorious
detail. But a quick firefight in the middle of a roleplaying session
shouldn't break the momentum.

	5) Fusion power plants are one thing that needs fixing in FF&S. One of the
"hooks" in the Milieu 0 setting is the idea of "Fusion Plus." Ok, it's not a
very catchy phrase, but here's the basic idea. The commonly available fusion
plants are big. You really can't build them small enough for a fighter, for
example. The Imperium, with a common TL of 11 but a military TL of 12 has
had a technology breakthrough which allows them to build much smaller plants
that can fit into fighters (or other small craft). The new plants don't
produce more power per unit mass; you can just build them smaller. One of
the reasons many "pocket empires" are willing to join the Imperium is this
technology. 
	So we need to tweak the fusion plant rules enough that it's not practical
to put them into ships much smaller than 100tons prior to TL12. I repeat,
they're not necessarily more efficient, they can just be made smaller after
TL12. I _seriously_ need some inputs on this one, folks.

	6) The variety in armor materials, maneuver drives, etc. will be kept.
However, the basic design rules need to be structured to make design as much
as possible a "Pick a system, deduct its volume from the running total, add
its price, mass and power requirements to the total, and press on."

	7) "Basic Working Model" means all tables basically complete. Prose to make
it look good can be added later, as long as the system is testable now.

	8) If possible, don't pester Don about spacecraft design, he's probably
busy with the combat rules. I get all the hate mail now.

	9) I'll follow discussions on all three lists (Beta, Traveller and XBoat)
as soon as I get resubscribed to the XBoat. If you sent a message on XBoat
before receiving this, I didn't get it. I'll probably get three or four
copies of every message as people echo them to all the lists, but it's
easier and quicker than asking everybody to join just one of the lists for
the discussion. I need everybody's ideas.

	10) I'll keep copies of work-in-progress on my Web site at 

		http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html

	What's there right now isn't yet the latest version, as I'm in the middle
of changes, but I'll get it up soon.


SUMMARY: We're _not_ designing a new system, nor doing wholesale surgery on
FF&S. We're taking the existing rules and coming up with a simplified system
for quick & dirty designs. And we're doing it fast, so there's not much time
to squabble. My basic plan of attack is to convert all the FF&S rules to a
set of tables from which you can pick items. But I need input from
everybody, especially those who're most interested in a basic system.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.










------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 20:41:21 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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Subject:       Undeliverable Message

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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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Subject:       Undeliverable Message

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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>,<gdw-beta@qrc.com>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re:  A suggestion

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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 06:12 pm 6/2/96 -0400, Derek Wildstar wrote:
>merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>> 1.  List the things in HG that are *really* broken.
>
>My suggestion is that Don is giving us the chance to replace High Guard with
>an FF&S-derived system.  THEREFORE, if we can figure out a way to generate
>High-Guard "style" USPs from FF&S equipment and weapons, then we can replace
>everything in one fell swoop.  This allows us to avoid some of the more
>sticky (and time-consuming) High-Guard irregularities.

        That's the goal: create "HG-style" USPs, not a High Guard version of
FF&S. The design system will remain FF&S -- all Light is is a set of
pregenerated FF&S systems.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.










------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 20:41:32 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: FF&S Lite

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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------Much praise and caffeine to Dave for taking this on!

(Yike - only 3 minutes left online - pls forgive typoes.)

A quick question: 
Can we send advice for the combat system?  After all, we should structure the
basic system so that its numbers match those needed by the combat system  Or
are you doing that automatically.



One more comment - another reason for keeping size small is that a group
interested in large ships is probably also interested enough to buy the
Starships game (BL/BR or whatever its called.)

Outta time.  Later...



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #45
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 2 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 046

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Undeliverable Message
         2. Undeliverable Message
         3. Undeliverable Message
         4. Undeliverable Message
         5. Undeliverable Message
         6. Undeliverable Message

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 20:49:25 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


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Subject:       Undeliverable Message

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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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Subject:       Undeliverable Message

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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <merrick@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
		 <gdw-beta@qrc.com>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: Wow, A lot to do by friday :-)

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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 03:50 pm 6/2/96 -0600, merrick@qrc.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>Well, looks like FFSLight has a go ahead.
>
>Making tables of premade stuff a la Book2 should be trivial.  A few
>points:
>
>1.  Should the basic system for the general rules specialize on small
>ships like B2?  In this case we don't need to fill in tables for MGs and
>the like, only up to, say 5000ton ships need be considered.

        Small ships ... I was only planning on going up to about 5,000Td.
Most customers for bigger ships are going to be governments or megacorps
with detailed specs and more money. Plus, most shipyards aren't going to
have "standard" equipment big enough for the rare big ship.

>2.  In order to make said tables, what parts of FFS need fixing?

        As little as possible, with one exception. To fit the basic setting
envisioned for Milieu 0, fusion plants need some work.

>3.  Are we requiring backwards compatability with HG? (I assume yes)
>
>In the case of #3, should we just alter FFS to produce exact matches,
>right off the bat (j-drive fuel, for example, or mdrive %s)?

        Well, Don seemed very firm about not changing FF&S. He did agree
that we can tweak it somewhat if absolutely needed, but no major revisions.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.










------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 20:50:27 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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   recipient must delete some messages before any
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   Administrators can set message limits using the 
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   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: FF&S Light Challenge

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
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   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
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   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> I don't think that the design system should be limited to people that
> can't add or multiply :-)  HG's most complicated math is to figure,
> what, energy points?  Agility?  The actual design process has no more
> than taking %s.

I am not talking about math so much as the process itself.  That is, the 
number of steps involved,the number of tables involved, etc.  But, if you 
read the rest of my earlier reply, you know that I came to the conclusion 
that what David Golden is proposing is indeed appropriate for beginners.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)








------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 20:51:39 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <goldendj@usa.net>
Cc:            <gdw-beta@qrc.com>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject:       Re: Re: FF&S Suggestions

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ---------------------->        Well, even a custom designed system will probably be designed around
>mostly standard-type parts. But if you just define repair costs as a
>fraction of the original cost, then the higher original cost will drive
>higher repair costs without a separate rule.

Possibly.  But consider how repairs work.  (Details thanks to an aviation
tech I know.)

Airplane lands with problems: that radar isn't working properly.

Tech pulls the three modules most likely to be broken and tests system.  If
it doesn't work, she repeats it with the next three modules.  Eventually it
works.

All pulled modules are sent back to the factory for reconditioning.  (Even
the ones that were ok go back - less chance of a human error, and they may
have been damaged by being pulled.)

The tech doesn't attempt to repair the broken module.  Too much time,
requires equipment sho doesn't have, parts she doesn't have, and probably
requires knowledge she doesn't have.  besides, it would void the warranty.


This is what I see starport repairs as like.  Thus, opening up the standard
module to repair/tweak it is a possibility, but the players will have to do
it themselves, or hunt for a good (and expensive) technician.


If you want more justification, keep in mind that the actual construction of
each standard module is protected by patents (and possibly black epoxy and
anti-tampering devices, depending on how paranoid the manufacturer is :-) ). 
An LSP avionics package meets the same specs as a General Products one, but
its interior circuitry will be different.  (Rather like chips nowadays: same
specs, different masks.)




------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 21:02:10 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <goldendj@usa.net>
Cc:            <gdw-beta@qrc.com>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject:       Re: Re: FF&S Suggestions

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ---------------------->        Well, even a custom designed system will probably be designed around
>mostly standard-type parts. But if you just define repair costs as a
>fraction of the original cost, then the higher original cost will drive
>higher repair costs without a separate rule.

Possibly.  But consider how repairs work.  (Details thanks to an aviation
tech I know.)

Airplane lands with problems: that radar isn't working properly.

Tech pulls the three modules most likely to be broken and tests system.  If
it doesn't work, she repeats it with the next three modules.  Eventually it
works.

All pulled modules are sent back to the factory for reconditioning.  (Even
the ones that were ok go back - less chance of a human error, and they may
have been damaged by being pulled.)

The tech doesn't attempt to repair the broken module.  Too much time,
requires equipment sho doesn't have, parts she doesn't have, and probably
requires knowledge she doesn't have.  besides, it would void the warranty.


This is what I see starport repairs as like.  Thus, opening up the standard
module to repair/tweak it is a possibility, but the players will have to do
it themselves, or hunt for a good (and expensive) technician.


If you want more justification, keep in mind that the actual construction of
each standard module is protected by patents (and possibly black epoxy and
anti-tampering devices, depending on how paranoid the manufacturer is :-) ). 
An LSP avionics package meets the same specs as a General Products one, but
its interior circuitry will be different.  (Rather like chips nowadays: same
specs, different masks.)





------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 21:02:31 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: FF&S Light Challenge

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> I don't think that the design system should be limited to people that
> can't add or multiply :-)  HG's most complicated math is to figure,
> what, energy points?  Agility?  The actual design process has no more
> than taking %s.

I am not talking about math so much as the process itself.  That is, the 
number of steps involved,the number of tables involved, etc.  But, if you 
read the rest of my earlier reply, you know that I came to the conclusion 
that what David Golden is proposing is indeed appropriate for beginners.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)









------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 21:05:40 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <merrick@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
		 <gdw-beta@qrc.com>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: Wow, A lot to do by friday :-)

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 03:50 pm 6/2/96 -0600, merrick@qrc.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>Well, looks like FFSLight has a go ahead.
>
>Making tables of premade stuff a la Book2 should be trivial.  A few
>points:
>
>1.  Should the basic system for the general rules specialize on small
>ships like B2?  In this case we don't need to fill in tables for MGs and
>the like, only up to, say 5000ton ships need be considered.

        Small ships ... I was only planning on going up to about 5,000Td.
Most customers for bigger ships are going to be governments or megacorps
with detailed specs and more money. Plus, most shipyards aren't going to
have "standard" equipment big enough for the rare big ship.

>2.  In order to make said tables, what parts of FFS need fixing?

        As little as possible, with one exception. To fit the basic setting
envisioned for Milieu 0, fusion plants need some work.

>3.  Are we requiring backwards compatability with HG? (I assume yes)
>
>In the case of #3, should we just alter FFS to produce exact matches,
>right off the bat (j-drive fuel, for example, or mdrive %s)?

        Well, Don seemed very firm about not changing FF&S. He did agree
that we can tweak it somewhat if absolutely needed, but no major revisions.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.











------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #46
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 2 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 047

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Undeliverable Message
         2. Undeliverable Message
         3. Undeliverable Message

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 21:07:33 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <gdw-beta@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------Everybody's seen Don Perrin's message by now, saying that my big mouth got
me into the hot water. I've got until Friday to come up with a basic working
model of "Fire, Fusion & Steel Light." I need some serious help to do this.
During my talks with Don Perrin this morning, here's the guidance I got:

	1) "Fire, Fusion & Steel" (FF&S) _will be_ the detailed spacecraft design
supplement for MMT, with little change. He doesn't want a wholesale rewrite.
Only if something is seriously broken will it be tweaked. However! If it
does get fixed, it needs those fixes identified NOW so they are incorporated
into the "Light" version. IG will eventually reissue FF&S, and any updates
will be made available on the Net for those who already have it.

	2) Combat will be "High Guard-style," using single-digit ratings for
systems in a Universal Ship Profile, and separate to-hit/to-penetrate tables
instead of tasks. So we need to come up with a way of converting detailed
statistics into single-digit type ratings. But we're not rewriting FF&S to
look like HG. My understanding is that the combat rules will *not* be
straight out of "Book 5, 2nd Edition" as far as actual values, etc., just
that the mechanics themselves will be very similar. As an intermediate step,
the abstracted combat values in "Brilliant Lances" may be a good start for
generating USPs.

	4) The USP really shouldn't grow much bigger -- Don thinks it's probably
too long already. He's talking about coming up with some way to roll ALL the
offensive and defensive systems into a single factor each, i.e. Attack 7,
Defend 5. Just for the basic rules, folks, calm down. Something like
"Brilliant Lances" (and probably "Brilliant Lances") is also being planned,
and they'll use mechanics much like the existing ones, in all their glorious
detail. But a quick firefight in the middle of a roleplaying session
shouldn't break the momentum.

	5) Fusion power plants are one thing that needs fixing in FF&S. One of the
"hooks" in the Milieu 0 setting is the idea of "Fusion Plus." Ok, it's not a
very catchy phrase, but here's the basic idea. The commonly available fusion
plants are big. You really can't build them small enough for a fighter, for
example. The Imperium, with a common TL of 11 but a military TL of 12 has
had a technology breakthrough which allows them to build much smaller plants
that can fit into fighters (or other small craft). The new plants don't
produce more power per unit mass; you can just build them smaller. One of
the reasons many "pocket empires" are willing to join the Imperium is this
technology. 
	So we need to tweak the fusion plant rules enough that it's not practical
to put them into ships much smaller than 100tons prior to TL12. I repeat,
they're not necessarily more efficient, they can just be made smaller after
TL12. I _seriously_ need some inputs on this one, folks.

	6) The variety in armor materials, maneuver drives, etc. will be kept.
However, the basic design rules need to be structured to make design as much
as possible a "Pick a system, deduct its volume from the running total, add
its price, mass and power requirements to the total, and press on."

	7) "Basic Working Model" means all tables basically complete. Prose to make
it look good can be added later, as long as the system is testable now.

	8) If possible, don't pester Don about spacecraft design, he's probably
busy with the combat rules. I get all the hate mail now.

	9) I'll follow discussions on all three lists (Beta, Traveller and XBoat)
as soon as I get resubscribed to the XBoat. If you sent a message on XBoat
before receiving this, I didn't get it. I'll probably get three or four
copies of every message as people echo them to all the lists, but it's
easier and quicker than asking everybody to join just one of the lists for
the discussion. I need everybody's ideas.

	10) I'll keep copies of work-in-progress on my Web site at 

		http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html

	What's there right now isn't yet the latest version, as I'm in the middle
of changes, but I'll get it up soon.


SUMMARY: We're _not_ designing a new system, nor doing wholesale surgery on
FF&S. We're taking the existing rules and coming up with a simplified system
for quick & dirty designs. And we're doing it fast, so there's not much time
to squabble. My basic plan of attack is to convert all the FF&S rules to a
set of tables from which you can pick items. But I need input from
everybody, especially those who're most interested in a basic system.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.












------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 21:12:54 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: FF&S Light Challenge

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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> I don't think that the design system should be limited to people that
> can't add or multiply :-)  HG's most complicated math is to figure,
> what, energy points?  Agility?  The actual design process has no more
> than taking %s.

I am not talking about math so much as the process itself.  That is, the 
number of steps involved,the number of tables involved, etc.  But, if you 
read the rest of my earlier reply, you know that I came to the conclusion 
that what David Golden is proposing is indeed appropriate for beginners.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)










------------------------------

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Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 21:29:31 -24000
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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <gdw-beta@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin

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	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------Everybody's seen Don Perrin's message by now, saying that my big mouth got
me into the hot water. I've got until Friday to come up with a basic working
model of "Fire, Fusion & Steel Light." I need some serious help to do this.
During my talks with Don Perrin this morning, here's the guidance I got:

	1) "Fire, Fusion & Steel" (FF&S) _will be_ the detailed spacecraft design
supplement for MMT, with little change. He doesn't want a wholesale rewrite.
Only if something is seriously broken will it be tweaked. However! If it
does get fixed, it needs those fixes identified NOW so they are incorporated
into the "Light" version. IG will eventually reissue FF&S, and any updates
will be made available on the Net for those who already have it.

	2) Combat will be "High Guard-style," using single-digit ratings for
systems in a Universal Ship Profile, and separate to-hit/to-penetrate tables
instead of tasks. So we need to come up with a way of converting detailed
statistics into single-digit type ratings. But we're not rewriting FF&S to
look like HG. My understanding is that the combat rules will *not* be
straight out of "Book 5, 2nd Edition" as far as actual values, etc., just
that the mechanics themselves will be very similar. As an intermediate step,
the abstracted combat values in "Brilliant Lances" may be a good start for
generating USPs.

	4) The USP really shouldn't grow much bigger -- Don thinks it's probably
too long already. He's talking about coming up with some way to roll ALL the
offensive and defensive systems into a single factor each, i.e. Attack 7,
Defend 5. Just for the basic rules, folks, calm down. Something like
"Brilliant Lances" (and probably "Brilliant Lances") is also being planned,
and they'll use mechanics much like the existing ones, in all their glorious
detail. But a quick firefight in the middle of a roleplaying session
shouldn't break the momentum.

	5) Fusion power plants are one thing that needs fixing in FF&S. One of the
"hooks" in the Milieu 0 setting is the idea of "Fusion Plus." Ok, it's not a
very catchy phrase, but here's the basic idea. The commonly available fusion
plants are big. You really can't build them small enough for a fighter, for
example. The Imperium, with a common TL of 11 but a military TL of 12 has
had a technology breakthrough which allows them to build much smaller plants
that can fit into fighters (or other small craft). The new plants don't
produce more power per unit mass; you can just build them smaller. One of
the reasons many "pocket empires" are willing to join the Imperium is this
technology. 
	So we need to tweak the fusion plant rules enough that it's not practical
to put them into ships much smaller than 100tons prior to TL12. I repeat,
they're not necessarily more efficient, they can just be made smaller after
TL12. I _seriously_ need some inputs on this one, folks.

	6) The variety in armor materials, maneuver drives, etc. will be kept.
However, the basic design rules need to be structured to make design as much
as possible a "Pick a system, deduct its volume from the running total, add
its price, mass and power requirements to the total, and press on."

	7) "Basic Working Model" means all tables basically complete. Prose to make
it look good can be added later, as long as the system is testable now.

	8) If possible, don't pester Don about spacecraft design, he's probably
busy with the combat rules. I get all the hate mail now.

	9) I'll follow discussions on all three lists (Beta, Traveller and XBoat)
as soon as I get resubscribed to the XBoat. If you sent a message on XBoat
before receiving this, I didn't get it. I'll probably get three or four
copies of every message as people echo them to all the lists, but it's
easier and quicker than asking everybody to join just one of the lists for
the discussion. I need everybody's ideas.

	10) I'll keep copies of work-in-progress on my Web site at 

		http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html

	What's there right now isn't yet the latest version, as I'm in the middle
of changes, but I'll get it up soon.


SUMMARY: We're _not_ designing a new system, nor doing wholesale surgery on
FF&S. We're taking the existing rules and coming up with a simplified system
for quick & dirty designs. And we're doing it fast, so there's not much time
to squabble. My basic plan of attack is to convert all the FF&S rules to a
set of tables from which you can pick items. But I need input from
everybody, especially those who're most interested in a basic system.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.













------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #47
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Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #48
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 2 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 048

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Undeliverable Message
         2. Undeliverable Message
         3. Latest SPAM
         4. Undeliverable Message
         5. Undeliverable Message

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 21:31:11 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
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   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
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   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
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   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
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   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
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   Administrators can set message limits using the 
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   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
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   Administrators can set message limits using the 
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   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <merrick@qrc.com>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>
		 <gdw-beta@qrc.com>
Cc:            
Subject:       Re: Wow, A lot to do by friday :-)

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 03:50 pm 6/2/96 -0600, merrick@qrc.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>Well, looks like FFSLight has a go ahead.
>
>Making tables of premade stuff a la Book2 should be trivial.  A few
>points:
>
>1.  Should the basic system for the general rules specialize on small
>ships like B2?  In this case we don't need to fill in tables for MGs and
>the like, only up to, say 5000ton ships need be considered.

        Small ships ... I was only planning on going up to about 5,000Td.
Most customers for bigger ships are going to be governments or megacorps
with detailed specs and more money. Plus, most shipyards aren't going to
have "standard" equipment big enough for the rare big ship.

>2.  In order to make said tables, what parts of FFS need fixing?

        As little as possible, with one exception. To fit the basic setting
envisioned for Milieu 0, fusion plants need some work.

>3.  Are we requiring backwards compatability with HG? (I assume yes)
>
>In the case of #3, should we just alter FFS to produce exact matches,
>right off the bat (j-drive fuel, for example, or mdrive %s)?

        Well, Don seemed very firm about not changing FF&S. He did agree
that we can tweak it somewhat if absolutely needed, but no major revisions.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.












------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 21:34:36 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <goldendj@usa.net>
Cc:            <gdw-beta@qrc.com>,<xboat@MPGN.COM>,<traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject:       Re: Re: FF&S Suggestions

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ---------------------->        Well, even a custom designed system will probably be designed around
>mostly standard-type parts. But if you just define repair costs as a
>fraction of the original cost, then the higher original cost will drive
>higher repair costs without a separate rule.

Possibly.  But consider how repairs work.  (Details thanks to an aviation
tech I know.)

Airplane lands with problems: that radar isn't working properly.

Tech pulls the three modules most likely to be broken and tests system.  If
it doesn't work, she repeats it with the next three modules.  Eventually it
works.

All pulled modules are sent back to the factory for reconditioning.  (Even
the ones that were ok go back - less chance of a human error, and they may
have been damaged by being pulled.)

The tech doesn't attempt to repair the broken module.  Too much time,
requires equipment sho doesn't have, parts she doesn't have, and probably
requires knowledge she doesn't have.  besides, it would void the warranty.


This is what I see starport repairs as like.  Thus, opening up the standard
module to repair/tweak it is a possibility, but the players will have to do
it themselves, or hunt for a good (and expensive) technician.


If you want more justification, keep in mind that the actual construction of
each standard module is protected by patents (and possibly black epoxy and
anti-tampering devices, depending on how paranoid the manufacturer is :-) ). 
An LSP avionics package meets the same specs as a General Products one, but
its interior circuitry will be different.  (Rather like chips nowadays: same
specs, different masks.)







------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 21:35:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Latest SPAM

Ok, I go to the hockey rink for an hour and the list explodes.

No rest for the weary.  (Sleep is overrated).

I nuked the address so this stuff should stop soon.

I am going to try an experiment on monday to restrict the list.
We don't know how this will effect some people who's address
includes some UUCP routing.  I have to stop these stupid mailers
who bounce things wrong.

Rob
- -- 
Rob Miracle
rwm@mpgn.com
for webmaster@mpgn.com

------------------------------

From: <MAILER-DAEMON@state.ma.us>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 21:38:10 -24000
Subject: Undeliverable Message

To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
   user must delete some of the messages before 
   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.

- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Cc:            
Subject:       Undeliverable Message

Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
error codes.               

	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF


VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL

   The message cannot be delivered because the
   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
   recipient must delete some messages before any
   other messages can be delivered.
   
   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
   Administrators can set message limits using the 
   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------At 06:12 pm 6/2/96 -0400, Derek Wildstar wrote:
>merrick@Rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt) wrote:
>> 1.  List the things in HG that are *really* broken.
>
>My suggestion is that Don is giving us the chance to replace High Guard with
>an FF&S-derived system.  THEREFORE, if we can figure out a way to generate
>High-Guard "style" USPs from FF&S equipment and weapons, then we can replace
>everything in one fell swoop.  This allows us to avoid some of the more
>sticky (and time-consuming) High-Guard irregularities.

        That's the goal: create "HG-style" USPs, not a High Guard version of
FF&S. The design system will remain FF&S -- all Light is is a set of
pregenerated FF&S systems.

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.













------------------------------

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- ----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:

> I don't think that the design system should be limited to people that
> can't add or multiply :-)  HG's most complicated math is to figure,
> what, energy points?  Agility?  The actual design process has no more
> than taking %s.

I am not talking about math so much as the process itself.  That is, the 
number of steps involved,the number of tables involved, etc.  But, if you 
read the rest of my earlier reply, you know that I came to the conclusion 
that what David Golden is proposing is indeed appropriate for beginners.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)











------------------------------

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Traveller-digest            Monday, 3 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 049

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re:  FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin
         2. Re: Starship Design
         3. FF&S Lite: Fusion Explanation
         4. Re: A Ship Design System Followup
         5. NOTE: Not reading XBOAT or TRAVELLER
         6. [none]
         7. Re: Starship Design Et al
         8. Updated draft stuff
         9. Re: Starship Design
        10. Re: FF&S Suggestions
        11. Re: FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin
        12. Re: Assumptions
        13. Re: FF&S Lite

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 22:02:44 -0400
Subject: Re:  FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> wrote:
> 1) "Fire, Fusion & Steel" (FF&S) _will be_ the detailed spacecraft design
> supplement for MMT, with little change. He doesn't want a wholesale rewrite.

Check.

About the only thing I can think of in regard to FF&S fixes that are
critical at this stage of the game are:
1) The "laser limit" rule, which I feel should be added.
2) A decision needs to be made with respect to the maneuver technology
   used.  HEPlaR (and it's fuel usage) will require the current J-Drive
   fuel consumption.  A return to thruster plates should probably be 
   accompanied by a return to larger quantities of jump fuel.  This
   is a philosophical decision, and may need to be made by Marc.
3) Alternative (smaller) crew rules for civilian ships.

> 2) Combat will be "High Guard-style," using single-digit ratings for
> systems in a Universal Ship Profile, and separate to-hit/to-penetrate tables


OK, this is something we can work with.  Basically, then, the single-digit
"factor" needs to combine chance to-hit, chance to penetrate, and damage
done.  I'd suggest a system based on the expected value [*] of the damage
against a standardized target - perhaps something that delivers an expected
value of 1 major hit (nominal damage value of 40) should be USP 1.

The system can then scale exponentially (much like the original High Guard
system - a single laser was USP 1, but battery of 30 was USP 8).  As a
starting point, here's a suggestion:

USP = 1 + 2.1 * ln(Nweap * Deach / 40)
	where ln is the natural logarithm,
	      Nweap is the number of weapons in the battery,
	  and Deach is the damage value per weapon.
Increase the USP factor by one for batteries which have a Master Fire
Director dedicated to them.  Multipurpose MFDs can be  subsumed into the
computer/electronics USP.

For FF&S Lite users, a table could be provided listing USP factor and the
number of weapons required for a battery of the given factor (much like
High Guard, again).

[*] Note: this is a prob/stat term which means the number of the hits times
    the probability that they will occur.  For example, a system which does
    4 "hits" damage, but has a 50% "to-hit" roll and a 50% "penetrate" roll
    against our standardized target has an expected value of 1. 
  
> 4) The USP really shouldn't grow much bigger -- Don thinks it's probably
> too long already.

Well, you all know my feelings on that subject.

> He's talking about coming up with some way to roll ALL the offensive and
> defensive systems into a single factor each, i.e. Attack 7, Defend 5.

This might be a little _over_ simple, IMHO.  Perhaps a better idea might be
to make the USP an optional thing (much like it was in Classic Traveller;
USPs only came along with High Guard).  In the basic game, if you include
only lasers, missiles, and sandcaster turrets (again, much like Classic
Traveller) things become much simpler.  The USP can be presented along with
either the boardgame system or the detailed design system (or both).

> 5) Fusion power plants are one thing that needs fixing in FF&S.
> So we need to tweak the fusion plant rules enough that it's not practical
> to put them into ships much smaller than 100tons prior to TL12.

Well, we've already got a mechanic for this in FF&S, it just seems to me
that the values need changing slightly.  The (current) FF&S power plant
table looks like this.  I've added a second column; this replaces the old
minimum volume and is the only change we need to make (the last column,
labelled "Std" is the same volume, expressed in displacement tons).

				Smallest Plant (in m3)
	TL Plant	MW/m3	FF&S		T4	(Std)
	 6 Fission	0.30	 30		  30	 2.1
	 7 Fission	0.60	 20		  20	 1.4
	 8 Fission	1.0	 10		  10	 0.7
	 9 Fusion	2.0	100		1000	71.4
	10 Fusion	2.0	 50		 500	35.7
	11 Fusion	2.0	 20		 100	 7.1
	12 Fusion	2.0	 10		  20	 1.4
	13 Fusion	3.0	  1		  10	 0.7
	14 Fusion	3.0	  0.25		   1
	15 Fusion	6.0	  0.1		   0.1
	16 Fusion	7.0	  0.075		   0.05

With the above table, you can see how fusion plants progress from large
installations (at TL-9, they would be ground based, or installed into
starships of several hundred displacement tons or more).  The TL-10 plant
isn't very useful for small ships, either (though you could try building a
75-ton craft around it), while at TL-11 things are looking marginally useful
for small craft above about 30 tons.

As I understand the Milleu 0, the Imperium will be at TL-11 to -12, while
most of it's competition will be at TL-9 or TL-10.  This is a significant
advantage for the Imperium, and also shows a distinct development curve
for power plants, as the gravitic and damper technology is mastered from
TL-11 through TL-13.

How's that for a starting point?

> 6) The variety in armor materials, maneuver drives, etc. will be kept.
> However, the basic design rules need to be structured to make design as much
> as possible a "Pick a system, deduct its volume from the running total, add
> its price, mass and power requirements to the total, and press on."

Sounds good ... though I think the system you've got posted on your Web site
has a way to go before it is really this simple.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 96 19:49:32 -0600
Subject: Re: Starship Design

On 06/02/96 at 03:35 PM,  "David E. Brooks Jr" <dbj@MPGN.COM> said:

>On Sun, 2 Jun 1996, Don Perrin wrote:

>> You could, however, use FF&S to design the ships, if you like. I'm l
>> for TL11 ships for Civilian service and TL12 ships for government/mi
>> service.

>Just a quick question:  Which should we use for maneuver drives,
>thruster plates or HEPLaR drives?

>From what Don has written recently and Marc's comments over the last
few months I can make a *really* good guess on this one. Thruster
plates! Thruster plates! Thruster plates! <g>  

Just a guess...;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 96 21:06:12 -0600
Subject: FF&S Lite: Fusion Explanation

On 06/02/96 at 04:44 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:

>        The one subject where FF&S is open for changes! By now you've
>read Don's message about the nature of fusion plants at TL11 ... too
>big for ships much smaller than 100tons. We've got to come up with
>some rationale, handwaving or not, for this, so we don't get stuck
>with an arbitrary "before TL12 thou shalt not have fusion in small
>craft." Anybody got any ideas about a physics breakthrough in fusion
>technology that won't necessarily increase the power density, but
>will allow smaller minimum sizes?

I've got your answer...2 options...pick one, or both.

1. Nuclear Damper Technology!  

Quote:  Nuclear Dampers neutralize nuclear warheads, the effects of
high radiation, and disintegrator beams.
  ----------------  
  
First becomes available at Tech 12 as an focused defense at extended
ranges against nuke missile attack.  Perhaps available at 11-12 at
very short ranges to shield radiation from a fusion reactor.

Prior to the development of the ND shield all reactors needed massive
shielding around their cores.  Fusion reactors needed less than
fission, but still made it impossible to engineer reactors below a
certain size.

With Damper technology, a fusion reaction held in place by gravtic
controls could be engineered down to under cubic meter volumes.

[This requires a fusion that produces radiation levels high enough to
require a good bit of shielding.  I think what we expect from 'hot'
fusion would give us this.  There might have to be some hand waving on
how damper boxes would allow a fusion reaction within the core and
prevent ionizing radiation from escaping into the ship, but it could
work and it's at the right TL already.]

2. Cold Fusion Technology!

Quote:  "There is no bottom limits of the size of this device. It is
lightweight, since it does not need heavy shielding...It is not
dangerous. It can..run off of water...", FF&S 68.

So, the Imperium discovers (not rediscovers..this is a real
breakthrough) a way to make cold fusion work.  Cold Fusion reactions
are at a lower efficiency on a cubic cm by cubic cm basis than older
hot fusion methods, but the shielding the older models needed can be
dispensed with so the amount of energy output evens out.  And much
smaller units can be build..literally fusion in a 2 liter bottle.
 
[My preference out of these two is for Cold Fusion.]

Here's a third one I just thought of...

3.  Advanced Gravtic Control!

Although gravity control first becomes available at TL 9, "Advanced
Control" is listed as TL 12.  

  A. With advanced control, a gravitation well around a fusion
     bottle traps escaping particles.
  
  B. Advanced gravity control allows proton-proton reactions for
     the first time...more efficient.
     
  C. Gravtic squeezing allows practical Cold Fusion..see idea 2.


I am NOT a gearhead!

Eris Reddoch
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 96 19:38:05 -0600
Subject: Re: A Ship Design System Followup

On 06/02/96 at 02:39 PM,  Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM> said:

>>
>>        Volume    Pwr Req   Crew   Cost
>>       in cub M    in MW    Req   in Mcr
>>Pack1    168        8.0      2     18.0

>>[probably should use tons instead of cubic meters??]

>Your design sequence isnt half bad.  FF&S could be useful.  It comes
>down to this:

>   Don't make me have to use a calculator.  

I know what you mean.  At the design's highest level I'd like to just
plug parts together period. Virtually no math.

>If I can't to the math quickly in my head, it isn't useful.  A prime
>example is  Cargo is listed in tons, but you have to convert it to
>cubic meters to see if it  will fit in your cargo bay.  Before: 150
>Ton cargo hold = 150 tons cargo.  

I know what you mean.  Maybe we should round everything off to the
NEXT highest ton for the simple system.  That would mean wasted space
in a ship design (as if *that* doesn't happen <g>), but it could be
explained as the misc overhead of fitting the pieces together.  At
higher design levels you could *optimize* designs and remove wasted
space.  It's a time/money/space tradeoff.

My vision of the simple system is more simple than David's FF&S Lite.
I'd present complete systems to just plug together.  

I see 4 levels of complexity

Level 1:   Completely pre-generated Ships

Level 2:  Pre-generated systems you just plug together.

Start with a worksheet with eight short sections.

1.  Pick a hull from a list of the size, armor and config you want. 
The hull comes complete with integral grav control, and all the
piping, wiring, etc needed for everything else.  This also gives you
the available volume..no math required.

2.  Plug in the Jump drive and Jump Fuel volume from a list and
subtract vol from vol still available.  At worst you'd have to
multiply the fuel needed for one jump by some small number.

3.  Plug in the Maneuver drive from a list and subtract vol from vol
still available.

4.  Pick a Bridge Package from a table and subtract it's vol from the
vol available.  The Packages would be very high level including
sensors, electronics, control, communications, security, computer, and
flight controls.

5.  Pick 0 to n weapon systems from tables and subtract from available
volume.

6.  Add accomidations from a table:  so many low berths, small cabins,
large cabins, commons etc. and subtract from vol.

7.  Pick an Engineering Package from a table and plug it in.

8.  Plug in a Power Package exceeding the total of power required by
the other 7 subsystems.

Level 3:  Pre-generated subsystems that you plug together to make
complete systems, ie. create a hull, create a custom Bridge from lists
of pre-gened sensors, computers, commo gear etc.  (This is FF&S Lite I
think.)

Level 4:  Create the subsystem parts themselves, ie. design a custom
sensor system from the physics.  (This is FF&S!)

If I were IG, <g> I'd put Level 1 and 2 in the basic rules. I'd
include Level 3 with lots of ships, and ship systems in _Starships_,
and put Level 4 in an updated FF&S...which I'd rename something like
TRAVELLER TECHNICAL DESIGN MANUAL.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 96 22:25:28 -0400
Subject: NOTE: Not reading XBOAT or TRAVELLER

Just a quick note for those concerned: I'm ignoring XBOAT and TRAVELLER
lists due to the incredible volume generated by that person who has
a full mailbox and is on direct reply.  If you've posted something to
either list that's in reply to me about to starship design for T4, please
repost to gdw-beta@qrc.com because I will likely not see it in between
the bounce messages about bounce messages about bounce messages.

Perhaps this is the last gasp of the Nilsen Virus, just before it's
about to be rewritten out of existance by the milleu change?


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   "Dreams do not vanish, so long as people do
                                    not abandon them."  --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

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			    TRAVELLER Digest 677

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Re: Machine guns et c
	by anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
  2) Re: Gauss weapons/Mass drivers (was logistics)
	by jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
  3) Discussing weapons on TML and XTML
	by Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 11:55:51 +0000
From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Machine guns et c
Message-ID: <v02140b00adae5f6937bd@[193.12.250.151]>

>I know the M-249 SAW, we recieved it when I was still in the Army (1985/86i=
sh).
>
>Within the last few months, however, the Army and USMC have adopted a new
>7.62mm LMG, designated the M-240D.  This is basically the same weapon as th=
e
>coaxial MG in most US tanks.

Maybe I'm a bit dim but what does "USMC adopted this gun, army guys use
that gun, my gun is bigger than your gun=8A" et c has to do with Traveller?
If you're about to discuss guns please confine yourself to gundesingns in
Traveller, 3G^3 et c as this nitpicking on contemporary gun use is
uninteresting to me and (probably) most subscribers.
There's probably lots of mailing lists for military types and gun freaks in
cyberspace, use them.

/Backman



- ------------------------------

Date: 	Thu, 02 May 1996 17:29:06 GMT
From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Gauss weapons/Mass drivers (was logistics)
Message-ID: <3187fd71.32793255@mail.Direct.CA>

Howdy, howdy... new to the list... yada, yada (you know the rest).

On Wed, 1 May 1996 09:22:01 -0400, Leonard Erickson wrote:

=> Several people seem to think that ammo for gauss weapons and mass
=> drivers would be complex and hard to manufacture. One cited FF&S.
=> I don't have FF&S but I have talked with folks who work with the real
=> thing (at Lawrence Livermore Labs).
=> 
=> While it's true that you can't just take a random hunk of metal and
=> shape it to produce a round, it won't be *that* much harder except for
=> the hypervelocity weapons, where you have problems with the round
=> *flowing* under its own weight.
=> 
=> FF&S may be using "fancy" rounds. But a gauss rifle that fires solid
=> "needles" at 5000 fps or so is easily doable with "near future" tech.
=> And making it able to work with a variety of metals isn't much harder.

The main difference between what is "doable today" and Traveller's version of
gauss weaponry in the future lies in energy consumption.  Today's mass drivers
must energize sections of the "barrel" one at a time to accelerate a projectile,
timing the switching via computer.  FF&S's design incorporates the projectile
into the electric circuit which creates the magnetic field, allowing the weapon
to more accurately localize the field.  As the round moves forward, so does the
circuit, and so does the resulting magnetic field.  By creating such a localized
field, energy consumption goes way down and portability becomes possible.

FF&S is talking about an extremely refined version of the mass driver technology
available today.  Just as a piece of magnetite (or loadstone) makes a fairly
decent magnet, wrapping it around an iron core improves its efficiency by quite
a bit.

jlindsay@direct.ca      Vancouver, British Columbia

"Always keep enough cash in your bank account for a
 tutu and a high-powered rifle"  <<<JL: 04-04-96>>>

------------------------------

From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 22:14:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Starship Design Et al

Merrick Burkhardt
At 07:21 PM 6/2/96 -0600, you wrote:
>First off---Sam, good points, all.
> 
>>         C. Violation of the Laws Of Thermodynamics(ie liquid gases for
>> barrel/ignition chamber coolants)
>
>Greg can fix that in the small arms stuff, we're just talking ship
>design, so that could be fixed at some slower pace.
>

My point being is why should Greg fix something that he did not have any
input into, or he might not fix due to he might have different
method/system. Some of us have designed large scale chemical laser
cartridge's for use in shipboard weapons systems.

>>         H. Hull Armor Issues (ie too great of numbers)
>
>Huh?
>

What I meant was the armor values for well "Designed" warships have been
into the 500's. Some rather extreme designs have had armor values into the
1000's.

>>       J. CPR Weapons Issues (Binary Propellants, Gravitic Recoil
Compensation)
>
>A Greg issue, not aship design issue.
>

My point being is why should Greg fix something that he did not have any
input into, or he might not fix due to he might have different
method/system. Some of us have designed large scale CPR's for use in
shipboard weapons systems.

>>        L. Electronic Warefare issues(Ie Ill defined and implemented)
>
>ECM works well enough when used with fixed sensor rules. 
>

IMHO it does not function at all, it is a rather simplistic attempt at EW
that does carry thru well.

>-Merrick
>
Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 21:42:13 -0600
Subject: Updated draft stuff

        While I'm downloading my mail, I'm also uploading the latest draft
versions I've got. Most of this should be relatively straightforward -- just
generating tables using FF&S. There are two points where I really, really
need inputs

        1) Generating USPs from FF&S statistics
        2) The modification to fusion plants needed in MMT

        Now I'm off to read all the mail that's accumulated since I was last
on ...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 23:25:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Starship Design

>From: dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin)
>
>It seems that I have been swayed by the myriad of discussions here on the
>Traveller and the XBoat mailing lists. I'm willing to give FF&S Light a
... exciting stuff deleted ...
>
>Thank you for your support and encouragement. Let's get to work!

No!  Thank you for listening and at least giving us a chance to help.  I
think that we are all agreed in that we want T4 to succeed.  I for one am
excited that you guys are listening to us.

Thanks!!


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 96 22:29:35 -0600
Subject: Re: FF&S Suggestions

On 06/02/96 at 05:03 PM,  merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt) said:

>> a physics breakthrough in fusion technology that won't necessarily i
>> the power density, but will allow smaller minimum sizes?

>Yup, it's very, very simple.  Strong/weak force control.  Dampers
>represent this tech, and come in at TL12.  Before that fusion plants
>are quantitative improvements on what we might be able to do in the
>next century.  After TL12 it's a whole new ball game.

I suggested that too, but...I've been thinking.  What does that do to
the previous several thousand years of Traveller history? I don't know
the max TL's of the First or Second Imperium.

Is the history going to get us into trouble here?

If nobody had hit TL 12, or Nuclear Dampers, then we're
OK..otherwise we're going to have to come up with something else.

Eris

- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 22:53:58 -0600
Subject: Re: FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin

At 05:27 pm 6/2/96 -0600, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
>If so, do you think it would be possible to have our combat factors
>actually mesh with HG?  I know (now) that we don't _have_ to, but it'd
>be nice, wouldn't it?  They're arbitrary anyway.  We could make a
>conversion from DE/ROF to weapon factor, for example.  Have a conversion

        Would you use Discharge Energy, or try to do it using the actual
penetration/damage values? That gives us a direct tie between the armor and
the weapon ratings. However we scale the weapons, we have to make sure they
still get through the same armor. Maybe some kind of logarithmic scale:

        Pen/Armor       USP
           0-1           0
           2-4           1
           5-12          2
           13-33         3
           34-90         4
           90-244        5
           245-665       6
              etc.

        Obviously I'm using natural logs here, but this is just an example.
How does BR scale BL weapons & armor? I need to dig up the rules and check.

>The "attack/defend" model isn't bad for that use, but we could add to
>the USP anyway for sensors---or even like Guy's idea (I liked it).  The
>reason is that if they only use attack/defend, there won't be a USP
>anyway until "Starships."

        I believe Don wants to add some sensor info to the USP, which is why
he's reluctant to go even further than that -- he thinks it's already
bloated. I wanted to break out a variable number of digits for each weapon
type, since HG assumed all lasers were identical and that's not true. You
also can't have particle bays if you've got a particle spinal, for example.
I saw it something like this

        xxxxxxx-842-xxxxxxxx
                26A

meaning 2 weapons (say, lasers) of factor 8, 6 more lasers of factor 4, and
10 of factor 2.

 
>>5) Fusion power plants are one thing that needs fixing in FF&S. One of the
>> "hooks" in the Milieu 0 setting is the idea of "Fusion Plus." Ok, it's not a
>> very catchy phrase, but here's the basic idea. The commonly available fusion
>> plants are big. You really can't build them small enough for a fighter, for
>> example. The Imperium, with a common TL of 11 but a military TL of 12 has
>> had a technology breakthrough which allows them to build much smaller plants
>> that can fit into fighters (or other small craft). The new plants don't
>> produce more power per unit mass; you can just build them smaller. One of
>> the reasons many "pocket empires" are willing to join the Imperium is this
>> technology. 
>> So we need to tweak the fusion plant rules enough that it's not practical
>> to put them into ships much smaller than 100tons prior to TL12. I repeat,
>> they're not necessarily more efficient, they can just be made smaller after
>> TL12. I _seriously_ need some inputs on this one, folks.
>
>Easy.  Damper tech.  We ramp PP size by TL very slowly until TL12.  At
>that point direct strong/weak force control is usable tech (dampers).
>Reactors now get really, really small.

        Sounds reasonable. Now we just need to figure out the specific
factors. I'll give a swing at it tomorrow. The basic idea is that a
"reasonable" small craft reactor is too big for the small craft.

>> 	6) The variety in armor materials, maneuver drives, etc. will be kept.
>> However, the basic design rules need to be structured to make design as much
>> as possible a "Pick a system, deduct its volume from the running total, add
>> its price, mass and power requirements to the total, and press on."
>
>Good.  Will this be in the MMT rules, or will it wait for "Starships"
>(I'll use SS from here on)?

        As I recall, MMT will have the combat rules and some predesigned
ships. SS will contain more stock designs, deckplans, and FF&S Light.
Finally, FF&S 2 will follow.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 22:54:01 -0600
Subject: Re: Assumptions

At 05:37 pm 6/2/96 -0600, you wrote:
> 
>> Changes to FFS for T4:
>> 
>> 1.  Jump fuel is 10% per jump number.  Scrap fuel info on page 42 of
>> FFS.  The rest can stay (the cost should change from 0.3/kl to 0.29,
>> though)
>
>We need to at least *add* this.  If people change mdrive tech things get
>out of whack.

        Don was pretty clear about not wanting to change FF&S -- I had to
convince him that a few tweaks would be worth the effort. Do we really want
to try to swing something this major while trying to get the whole thing
done by Friday?

        I think our best bet is to concentrate on first getting FF&S Light
rules written to convince him it's workable, and when we turn them in try to
convince him we need to go back and fix FF&S. At that point, since most of
the work on USP conversion and etc. will have been done, updates to FF&S
shouldn't be too difficult to flow into FF&S Light -- just a matter of
changing tables.

        We really need to knock the rules out quick.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 22:54:07 -0600
Subject: Re: FF&S Lite

At 08:06 pm 6/2/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Much praise and caffeine to Dave for taking this on!

        I'll certainly need the caffeine ... anybody got a line on an
industrial supply of caffeine IV's? (Thanks to excitement, and a miserable
cold, I've only gotten about two hours of sleep the whole weekend.)

>(Yike - only 3 minutes left online - pls forgive typoes.)
>
>A quick question: 
>Can we send advice for the combat system?  After all, we should structure the
>basic system so that its numbers match those needed by the combat system  Or
>are you doing that automatically.

        Comments on the combat system should probably go straight to Don (or
the list; he does read it). I'll be trying to coordinate with him as far as
our numbers. But once we get the basic rules down and a general method of
converting to USPs, adjusting the conversions to provide desired output
hopefully won't be too difficult.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #49
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 3 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 050

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re:  FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin
         2. Apology/Question
         3. Re: A Ship Design System Followup
         4. Re: FF&S Suggestions
         5. FF&S Lite Hull Table (draft)
         6. Re:  Apology/Question
         7. Re:  Apology/Question
         8. Re: Undeliverable Message
         9. GDW-Beta List
        10. Re: FF&S Suggestions
        11. Re: New or Old Starship Designs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 22:54:12 -0600
Subject: Re:  FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin

At 10:02 pm 6/2/96 -0400, Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> wrote:
>About the only thing I can think of in regard to FF&S fixes that are
>critical at this stage of the game are:
>1) The "laser limit" rule, which I feel should be added.

        Check. I'd like to avoid an "arbitrary" rules, though. Anybody
remember how the last argument about his ended? All I remember is a long,
paint-fume-induced ramble in which I proved I'd forgotten most calculus.

>2) A decision needs to be made with respect to the maneuver technology
>   used.  HEPlaR (and it's fuel usage) will require the current J-Drive
>   fuel consumption.  A return to thruster plates should probably be 
>   accompanied by a return to larger quantities of jump fuel.  This
>   is a philosophical decision, and may need to be made by Marc.

        On my list of inquiries to Don.

>3) Alternative (smaller) crew rules for civilian ships.

        Already being addressed, although specifics are still in flux (i.e.
formless). Basically, I'd like to assume that the FF&S crew rules are for
post-Virus paranoid minimally-automated ships. The basic crew factor for
each system will be its straight FF&S crew requirement, and then we'll
multiply by a fraction (dependent on TL?) to come up with crews for more
automated systems

>> 2) Combat will be "High Guard-style," using single-digit ratings for
>> systems in a Universal Ship Profile, and separate to-hit/to-penetrate tables
>
>OK, this is something we can work with.  Basically, then, the single-digit
>"factor" needs to combine chance to-hit, chance to penetrate, and damage
>done.  I'd suggest a system based on the expected value [*] of the damage
>against a standardized target - perhaps something that delivers an expected
>value of 1 major hit (nominal damage value of 40) should be USP 1.
>
>The system can then scale exponentially (much like the original High Guard
>system - a single laser was USP 1, but battery of 30 was USP 8).  As a
>starting point, here's a suggestion:
>
>USP = 1 + 2.1 * ln(Nweap * Deach / 40)
>	where ln is the natural logarithm,
>	      Nweap is the number of weapons in the battery,
>	  and Deach is the damage value per weapon.
>Increase the USP factor by one for batteries which have a Master Fire
>Director dedicated to them.  Multipurpose MFDs can be  subsumed into the
>computer/electronics USP.

        Hmm ... sounds like a start. I was thinking of using the same
scaling for weapons and armor factors ... after the conversion a weapon
should still be as effective against the same converted armor.

>For FF&S Lite users, a table could be provided listing USP factor and the
>number of weapons required for a battery of the given factor (much like
>High Guard, again).
>
>[*] Note: this is a prob/stat term which means the number of the hits times
>    the probability that they will occur.  For example, a system which does
>    4 "hits" damage, but has a 50% "to-hit" roll and a 50% "penetrate" roll
>    against our standardized target has an expected value of 1. 

        I'll have to rely on you & other probability guys ... I know enough
to not play Lotto, and I understand your explanation, but ...
  
>> 4) The USP really shouldn't grow much bigger -- Don thinks it's probably
>> too long already.
>
>Well, you all know my feelings on that subject.
>
>> He's talking about coming up with some way to roll ALL the offensive and
>> defensive systems into a single factor each, i.e. Attack 7, Defend 5.
>
>This might be a little _over_ simple, IMHO.  Perhaps a better idea might be
>to make the USP an optional thing (much like it was in Classic Traveller;
>USPs only came along with High Guard).  In the basic game, if you include
>only lasers, missiles, and sandcaster turrets (again, much like Classic
>Traveller) things become much simpler.  The USP can be presented along with
>either the boardgame system or the detailed design system (or both).
>
>> 5) Fusion power plants are one thing that needs fixing in FF&S.
>> So we need to tweak the fusion plant rules enough that it's not practical
>> to put them into ships much smaller than 100tons prior to TL12.
>
>Well, we've already got a mechanic for this in FF&S, it just seems to me
>that the values need changing slightly.  The (current) FF&S power plant
>table looks like this.  I've added a second column; this replaces the old

        (long table snipped) Thanks! I'll look it over in detail once I
finish slogging through all this mail. Didn't realize how popular I could
get ...

>As I understand the Milleu 0, the Imperium will be at TL-11 to -12, while
>most of it's competition will be at TL-9 or TL-10.  This is a significant
>advantage for the Imperium, and also shows a distinct development curve
>for power plants, as the gravitic and damper technology is mastered from
>TL-11 through TL-13.
>
>How's that for a starting point?

        I think that's the whole capital-Eye Idea ...

>> 6) The variety in armor materials, maneuver drives, etc. will be kept.
>> However, the basic design rules need to be structured to make design as much
>> as possible a "Pick a system, deduct its volume from the running total, add
>> its price, mass and power requirements to the total, and press on."
>
>Sounds good ... though I think the system you've got posted on your Web site
>has a way to go before it is really this simple.

        Agreed, but I'm moving along. The more inputs I get the better it gets!
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 22:54:18 -0600
Subject: Apology/Question

        In an attempt to include everybody in the effort to create a simpler
design system, I figured I'd email all three lists, and just live with the
duplicate messages. This probably was *not* a good idea. Would everybody be
happier if I just hit one list, and trust everybody who's interested to make
sure they're subscribed?

        The GDW-Beta list is probably the most appropriate, but I don't know
how fast Derek can add people so they don't miss anything. Or would it be
safe to assume most people who are interested are already on the list?

        Comments? I'll probably pick a single list tomorrow when I get home
from work, unless everybody really likes all the echoes ...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 22:54:16 -0600
Subject: Re: A Ship Design System Followup

At 07:38 pm 6/2/96 -0600, ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch) wrote:
>I know what you mean.  At the design's highest level I'd like to just
>plug parts together period. Virtually no math.

        If I can get it to work out, I'd really like to have the only math
necessary being adding up subtotals after each step ... keep my feet to the
fire about this!

>My vision of the simple system is more simple than David's FF&S Lite.
>I'd present complete systems to just plug together.  

        Unfortunately, although that's my goal, I'm still a long ways off.

>Level 2:  Pre-generated systems you just plug together.

        I'll put this in front of me to keep my own feet to the fire. I've
already come up with a way to ditch a little flexibility from the Hull
section in exchange for the ability to have just tables, with no other math
required like my original design.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 23:08:30 -0600
Subject: Re: FF&S Suggestions

At 10:29 pm 6/2/96 -0600, ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch) wrote:
>On 06/02/96 at 05:03 PM,  merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt) said:
>
>>> a physics breakthrough in fusion technology that won't necessarily i
>>> the power density, but will allow smaller minimum sizes?

>I suggested that too, but...I've been thinking.  What does that do to
>the previous several thousand years of Traveller history? I don't know
>the max TL's of the First or Second Imperium.
>
>Is the history going to get us into trouble here?
>
>If nobody had hit TL 12, or Nuclear Dampers, then we're
>OK..otherwise we're going to have to come up with something else.

        I was kinda hopin' either nobody'd think of this problem, or
somebody would do the research and answer no ... I don't have any timelines
handy.

        On the other hand, since when has any version of Traveller worried
too much about being consistent with its own history? Why break the
tradition <G>?
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 96 01:07:31 -0400
Subject: FF&S Lite Hull Table (draft)

Submitted for your approval ... one hull table for FF&S Lite.  The
calculations to back this up are in trav4-1.xls on my FTP site (that's
ftp://ftp.qrc.com/pub/users/wildstar/gdw-beta/trav4-1.xls for those of you
that use URLs).  Please check things over, and let me know what you think.

Explanation of columns:
USP = USP hull size factor (as per High Guard).
Config = (new) USP configuration factor.  No relation to any prior config USP.
MaxG = The maximum maneuver G's the hull is rated for
Armor = (new) USP hull armor factor, based on new FF&S USP calculation.
StdTons = The familiar Standard Displacement Tons of the hull.
Volume = Remaining (usable) volume inside the hull.
Power = Power in MW required to run this hull (mainly for Grav/G-Comp system).
Cost = Cost of hull (and associated equipment) in MCr.
Surface = Usable surface area on the hull in m2.

USP	Config	MaxG	Armor	StdTons	Volume  	Power	Cost	Surface
1	5	2	0	 100	 1340.62	 7.29	 1.97	888.00
1	3	4	1	 100	 1311.46	 7.13	 2.35	1002.00
2	F	2	0	 200	 2700.58	 14.68	 4.06	1048.00
2	B	1	0	 200	 2715.09	 14.76	 3.75	1048.00
3	F	4	1	 300	 4017.02	 21.84	 6.52	1396.00
4	9	1	0	 400	 5430.99	 29.53	 7.83	2081.00
5	J	4	1	 500	 6686.98	 36.36	 9.71	2474.00
6	8	2	0	 600	 8129.69	 44.21	11.41	2104.00
7	0	1	0	 700	 9494.49	 51.63	12.99	2104.00
8	D	3	0	 800	10821.68	 58.84	15.47	2296.00
9	7	2	0	 900	12206.36	 66.37	16.88	2756.00
A	2	6	2	1000	13265.70	 72.14	20.71	3536.00
B	0	1	0	2000	27210.47	147.78	36.79	4196.00
C	H	2	0	3000	40789.60	221.45	55.19	7876.00
D	A	1	0	4000	54569.16	296.20	73.28	8296.00
E	4	4	1	5000	67715.18	367.51	93.54	11896.00

All of the hulls were built with (I hope) standard FF&S rules.  Included
in every hull is also Basic and Extended life support, one airlock per
100 displacement tons (up to a maximum of ten), one large cargo hatch per
200 displacement tons (up to a maximum of four), and a few small cargo
hatches.  The hulls also have artificial gravity and g-compensation
installed, and are built at TL-10.  Note that (as long as TL-10 materials
are used), the capacity of the G-compensation system increases with TL, but
the hull statistics remain otherwise the same.

Oh ... a word of explanation is in order about the hull configuration
USP codes.  They're basically the same configurations that are possible
with FF&S, except that I gave them each a USP code letter.  The codes
are arranged as follows (with no attempt at being compatible with any
other edition of Traveller and it's USP configuration codes).

USP	Form
0	Open Frame
1	Needle
2	Needle Streamlined
3	Needle Airframe
4	Wedge
5	Wedge Streamlined
6	Wedge Airframe
7	Cylinder
8	Cylinder Streamlined
9	Cylinder Airframe
A	Box
B	Box Streamlined
C	Sphere
D	Sphere Streamlined
E	Disk
F	Disk Streamlined
G	Disk Airframe
H	Close Structure
J	Slab
K	Slab Streamlined
L	Slab Airframe

That's enough for tonight; I've got to go to work tomorrow, and it's late.
Hopefully soon, I'll be able to do some more systems.

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 96 01:21:58 -0400
Subject: Re:  Apology/Question

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> wrote:
> Would everybody be happier if I just hit one list, and trust everybody who's
> interested to make sure they're subscribed?

That's OK by me ... I don't have time to monitor all three.

> The GDW-Beta list is probably the most appropriate, but I don't know
> how fast Derek can add people so they don't miss anything.

Well, since I'm alerted to the urgent need, I can promise to check for
administrative requests several times a day; and give good response.
This sort of thing _is_ why the list was created in the first place.

ALSO, as far as I'm aware, the GDW-BETA list is the only one that is
archived to the World-Wide Web in real-time.  Even if I haven't subscribed
you yet, you can read the entire traffic off my web site (organized by date
and thread, too):

	http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/gdw-beta/

The gdw-beta list software will also allow anyone (who has the posting
address) to post to the list.  Therefore, if you just want to monitor the
discussion and make an ocassional comment, you can do that without being
subscribed.  The posting address is:

	gdw-beta@qrc.com

If you want to subscribe to the list, send e-mail to:

	gdw-beta-request@qrc.com


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   "Dreams do not vanish, so long as people do
                                    not abandon them."  --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 23:47:04 -0600
Subject: Re:  Apology/Question

At 01:21 am 6/3/96 -0400, Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> wrote:
>"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> wrote:
>> Would everybody be happier if I just hit one list, and trust everybody who's
>> interested to make sure they're subscribed?
>
>> The GDW-Beta list is probably the most appropriate, but I don't know
>> how fast Derek can add people so they don't miss anything.
>
>Well, since I'm alerted to the urgent need, I can promise to check for
>administrative requests several times a day; and give good response.
>This sort of thing _is_ why the list was created in the first place.
>
>ALSO, as far as I'm aware, the GDW-BETA list is the only one that is
>archived to the World-Wide Web in real-time.  Even if I haven't subscribed
>you yet, you can read the entire traffic off my web site (organized by date
>and thread, too):
>
>	http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/gdw-beta/

        Convinced me. From here on out, I'll try to address FF&S Light
questions & comments straight to the GDW-Beta list, although for the next
day or so, as stuff trickles in, I'll make sure I reply to the source list
as well. That way, people who don't care won't be bombarded with all this
stuff, and those who do won't have to look at it three times ...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Marc Bergvelt <marcusb@hk.super.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 14:28:33 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Re: Undeliverable Message

Uh guys . . . it would appear as if your MAILER DEAMON HAS GONE BERZERK. 
KINDLY PUT IT OUT OF ITS MISERY OR KNOCK IT FOR SIX.

I RECEIVED 56 "UNDELIVERABLE MESSAGE" MAILS IN A SINGLE NIGHT.

I DON'T WANT 'EM. 
ANYWAY, WHAT'S IT ON ABOUT? MY MAIL BOX WILL BE FULL IF THE DEAMON KEEPS UP
ITS BERZERK ROBOT MAILING. 

SO THEN WHOSE MAIL-BOX IS FULL, IF NOT MINE (YET). AND WHY 56 MESSAGES TO ME?
IS THE MAILING LIST GETTING A LITTLE BUSY - WHAT WITH ALL THE NEW EXCITEMENT
ABOUT T4?

ENOUGH ALREADY. GIVE MY MAILBOX A BREAK.





At 07:28 PM 2/06/96 -24000, you wrote:
>To:            <traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Cc:            
>Subject:       Undeliverable Message
>
>Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
>error codes.               
>
>	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF
>
>
>VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL
>
>   The message cannot be delivered because the
>   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
>   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
>   recipient must delete some messages before any
>   other messages can be delivered.
>   
>   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
>   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
>   Administrators can set message limits using the 
>   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
>   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 
>
>   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
>   user must delete some of the messages before 
>   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.
>
>----------------------  Original Message Follows  ----------------------To:
<traveller@MPGN.COM>
>Cc:            
>Subject:       Re: FF&S Suggestions
>
>Message not delivered to recipients below.  Press F1 for help with VNM
>error codes.               
>
>	VNM3043:  Peter Brenton@Executive@ANF
>
>
>VNM3043 -- MAILBOX IS FULL
>
>   The message cannot be delivered because the
>   recipient's mailbox contains the maximum number of 
>   messages, as set by the system administrator.  The
>   recipient must delete some messages before any
>   other messages can be delivered.
>   
>   The maximum message limit for a user's mailbox is 
>   10,000.  The default message limit is 1000 messages.  
>   Administrators can set message limits using the 
>   Mailbox  Settings function available in the 
>   Manage User menu  (MUSER). 
>
>   When a user's mailbox reaches the limit, the 
>   user must delete some of the messages before 
>   the mailbox can accept any more incoming messages.
>
>----------------------  Original Message Follows  ---------------------- 
>> >POWER PLANTS
>> 
>>         The one subject where FF&S is open for changes! By now you've read
>> Don's message about the nature of fusion plants at TL11 ... too big for
>> ships much smaller than 100tons. We've got to come up with some rationale,
>> handwaving or not, for this, so we don't get stuck with an arbitrary "before
>> TL12 thou shalt not have fusion in small craft." Anybody got any ideas about
>> a physics breakthrough in fusion technology that won't necessarily increase
>> the power density, but will allow smaller minimum sizes?
>
>Yup, it's very, very simple.  Strong/weak force control.  Dampers
>represent this tech, and come in at TL12.  Before that fusion plants are
>quantitative improvements on what we might be able to do in the next
>century.  After TL12 it's a whole new ball game.
> 
>-Merrick
>
>
>


- ----------------------------------------------
Marc Bergvelt
Email: marcusb@hk.super.net
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
     A good poet is someone who manages       
  in a lifetime of standing out in thunderstorms 
    to be struck by lightning five or six times. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
			 ---   Randall Jarell


------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 96 01:15:59 -0600
Subject: GDW-Beta List

On 06/02/96 at 10:54 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:

>        The GDW-Beta list is probably the most appropriate, but I
>don't know how fast Derek can add people so they don't miss anything.
>Or would it be safe to assume most people who are interested are
>already on the list?

I'm not, but I'd like to be.  I've asked this before without
reply...How do I go about joining the GDW-Beta List?  What's the
address?  Who do I contact?

Eris Reddoch
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 96 02:27:27 -0600
Subject: Re: FF&S Suggestions

On 06/02/96 at 11:08 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:

Speaking of Nuclear Dampers...

>>I suggested that too, but...I've been thinking.  What does that do to
>>the previous several thousand years of Traveller history? I don't kno
>>the max TL's of the First or Second Imperium.

>>Is the history going to get us into trouble here?

>>If nobody had hit TL 12, or Nuclear Dampers, then we're
>>OK..otherwise we're going to have to come up with something else.

>        I was kinda hopin' either nobody'd think of this problem, or
>somebody would do the research and answer no ... I don't have any
>timelines handy.

I don't know.  How about it experts?  Was Nuclear Damper
technology available before year Zero?

>        On the other hand, since when has any version of Traveller
>worried too much about being consistent with its own history? Why
>break the tradition <G>?

Well...we *could* start a trend? ;->

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 01:42:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: New or Old Starship Designs

... and lo, Merrick Burkhardt (merrick@rt66.com) did say unto the masses:

> At what point does a fusion/plasma gun get called a C-PAW?  I'd assume
> when the plasma gets relativistic.  At least having an energy weapon
> slot in the USP leaves room for some other kind of weapon to get bashed
> in :-)

A fusion/plasma gun becomes a C-PAW when it becomes something else 
entirely, namely a particle accelerator.  As I recall, particle 
accelerators have their own spot in the High Guard USP.  The whole USP 
thingy made me consider one point:  Since when does a string of 
alphanumeric characters provide a greater role-playing experience than 
the readout for a ship designed using FF&S?  "Sure, the USP is 
05-91JF$322F-XJ930q7-19, but what does that MEAN?"
  
> > The most important addittion to HG IMHO is surface area. Calculate armor
> > based on surface area and let each turret/bay/spinal use a certain area to
> > limit the number of weapons on big ships.
> 
> Yeah!  Another subtle difference, but it makes sense that such "1 per
> 100 tons" rules are just good rules of thumb.  Why would the Zhodani
> have the exact same limit as the Imperials (or the Hivers, or Aslan,
> etc.)?  Even if the rule was just rephrased to express this it'd make
> more sense when detailed add on rules are published.

I think "We imposed that rule so that users of the simplified system 
could strike a whole column off of their design table and save some 
sanity points" would be just a good an explanation as any.  If you start 
with a complex FF&S-ish system, derive a simplified system from it, and 
publish the simple system first (since IG wants/needs to get a simplified 
system to market this fall), you can impose any such rule you want, 
just so long as it maintains consistency and compatability with the 
complex rules system that forms its basis.
  
> > I'd love to have Traveller go back to HG as that was useful to the average
> > GM, FF&S was loved by gearheads but required too much work and the physics
> > behind it was mostly crap so it wasn't useful for my kind of gearheadedness
> > anyway.

"the physics behind it was mostly crap"?  FF&S was broken in a few 
places, but what led to THAT statement?  Did they print the wrong figure 
for acceleration due to gravity at 1G or something?
 
> A lot of the physics was not perfect, but I like the attempt to
> charaterize the physics of the technology a little.  Of course a lot of
> my favorite science fiction involves technology/physics and interesting
> results of such.  It doesn't have to be as detailed as FFS, but *some*
> detail (in the background now, to be published later, hopefully) would
> be nice.

Some sort of misconception has crept into the whole discussion, and I 
want to address it here:  Since when do complex design rules detract from 
the roleplaying experience?  Who the hell, during an actual gaming 
session, works up a ship design?  Nobody I know.  I may be an odd duck, 
but I save the number crunching for the time between games, or I use a 
design off the rack.  If a player comes to me and says, "I wanna plunk my 
400 MCr lottery winnings into a starship of my design" then I get 
together with him/her and have him/her hammer out the specs and a 
workable design that follows the rules some other time than during the 
game session.  If they can't fit that into their busy schedule of work, 
school, kids, and minivans, then they can either trust the work to a 
shiftless, no-life lowlife like myself, or they can take a design 'off 
the rack.'

When playing TNE, I never had an experience where knowing more about a 
ship detracted from the role-playing experience, especially when the ship 
in question is the PC's.  It's their baby, their livelihood, and if it 
dies, most likely, so do they.  They want to know how fast it can go, how 
far it can jump, how far it can see, and how far its lasers can reach.  
They also want to know if they've got power to spare (in case they need 
to run a meson gun, to cite someone else's example) and if the inertial 
compensators are going to interfere with their pool game during routine 
maneuvering.  The players don't care that they didn't do the work that 
determined how their starship runs, but they're glad to know how it runs.

In many roleplaying situations (and here's where I address another 
misconception), the manner in which ships are designed has little or no 
bearing on what the players encounter.  If I roll on the encounter tables 
and the result specifies that the players get ambushed by a 400-ton 
patrol cruiser crewed by rebellious space-hamsters, I don't have to say 
"Hey, guys, can you wait four hours while I design it?"  I just flip to 
the page that has the stats and go from there.  If they do a good job of 
hiding (or the hamsters really brick their sensor task rolls), then I 
don't even have to drag out the Brilliant Lances hex sheets.

Does a complex design system detract from the role-playing experience?  I 
don't think so.  For players seeking touchstones with which to orient 
themselves in the universe I am attempting to describe, no amount of 
detail is too much.  On the other hand, I definitely believe that a 
too-simple design system can detract from the role-playing experience.  
The answer to too many questions becomes "Who knows?"  Can a CT-designed 
starship run a planetary meson gun on an emergency basis?  Who knows?  At 
which range does a ship become undetectable to another ship designed 
using High Guard rules?  Who knows?  What the heck is 'Near' and 'Far' 
range anyway?  Who knows?  "Who knows?" is not an answer that my players 
like to hear, especially when their notional butts are on the line. 

> Another point is that the published history includes wars fought with
> this tech---and the tech _described_ doesn't always mesh with what works
> best using HG.  Since the background is one of traveller's best points,
> it would be nice if fundamental rules don't make us scratch our heads
> when we read background (see lasers in TNE rules vs. published use as a
> recent example).

At first, I kinda chafed at the way TNE/FF&S treated lasers.  However, I 
read an article in one Challenge magazine (I forget which) in which the 
people who came up with that stuff explained their decisions for making 
the rules the way they did.  Even so, they bent a few rules of physics to 
come up with the rules for lasers which many people are decrying as too 
restrictive or revisionist when it comes to published material (can you 
say 'Gravitic Focussing?'  I knew you could).  I prefer rules for lasers 
(and space combat) which have a closer grounding to reality than some 
fanciful crap I've seen (I won't mention the other game systems) in the past.
Of course, if someone could cite an example where the new laser rules 
conflict with old, published Traveller history (Tales of Future Past?), I 
wouldn't mind.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #50
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 3 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 051

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. T4
         2. Barstool Science?
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #49
         4. Re: Apology/Question

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 04:53:27 -0400
Subject: T4

I have just returned from a day (June 1) of face-to-face discussions with
Imperium Games, specifically talking to Lester Smith, Don Perrin, and Ken
Whitman. I think that everyone is moving along at top speed on this project
and we’ll see an extremely excellent game system come out of their efforts.
After leaving that day of meetings, it was also clear to me that I should
post at least portions of the results of the meetings in order to 

A. Share the progress with you, and
B. Solicit your reactions to the material.

It is my intention within the next week to post the following:

1. The Skill List for T4 and the list of 10 character types included in the
basic game.

2. Lester Smith’s Executive Summary for Character Generation, for Tasks and
Skills, and for Personal Combat (since each chapter will have an executive
summary).

Marc



------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 02:56:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Barstool Science?

While summoning demons, Merrick Burkhardt (merrick@rt66.dom) chanted:

[bit about repulsors, which I'm not sure I comprehended, or whether it 
 was comprehensible, snipped]

> A navigational repulsor would be standard on ships at TLs to support it.
> Without one, you'd have limited velocities relative to the
> InterPlanetary Medium (IPM) unless you wanted to trash your ship... has
> interesting implications.

Interplanetary Medium?  Say what?

The only 'medium' between planets is stark, empty space, which is 
notoriously difficult for anything, radial tires and repulsors included, 
to get a grip on.  Since a repulsor is essentially a large, focussed 
anti-grav generator useful for deflecting incoming missiles (or trashing 
small craft) or, when coupled with a tractor (focussed gravity 
generator), manipulating nearby objects, it needs something to push on in 
order to generate a corresponding push in the opposite direction.  In 
combat, the incoming missile will push just as much on the 
repulsor-equipped ship as the ship pushes on the missile, although the 
ship itself, owing to its larger mass, will hardly be budged.  A repulsor 
cannot push on empty space, and there is no such thing as some convenient 
'interstellar medium' that permeates outer space that is there for 
repulsors to push on.  The thruster plate is a convenient shortcut for 
those who don't want to be bothered with worrying about how much reaction 
mass they need to take along in order to maneuver in normal space.  By 
merely adding wattage, you get thrust.  This is explained as having 
something to do with quantum physics, but the simple fact of the matter 
is, since you're not ejecting matter from the ship in order to generate a 
corresponding, opposite acceleration vector, and there's nothing out 
there to push on, you're getting something for nothing.

The sidenote:  The IG folks are going to have to decide on one system or 
the other (HEPlaR or thruster plates), because that's going to affect 
many other things.  If we go back to thruster plates, suddenly there's a 
whole lot of hull space that doesn't need to be devoted to reaction mass 
anymore.  Such ships would have a huge inherent advantage over those 
using physically correct (PC?) HEPlaR drives, unless some game-balancing 
rule was imposed, such as forcing thruster plate starships to use the 
volume and mass regained only for hot tubs and pool tables.  Sure, TP 
ships' crews might have more fun, but there'd be no game-unbalancing 
advantage when it came time for combat.

Now, granted, there are many things that I don't disbelieve in order to 
play the game, such as FTL drives, lasers capable of scoring worthwhile 
hits on other ships at space combat ranges and speeds, and dogs with 
thumbs, but when you toy with something that is taught in the first week 
of high school physics, namely the lack of a universal frame of reference, 
you're making far too many demands on my Suspension of Disbelief ability 
to make the Traveller universe one that I can immerse myself in deeply 
enough to make the roleplaying experience worthwhile.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk (Andy Lilly)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 11:36:36 +0100
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #49

Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> pointed out:

>2) A decision needs to be made with respect to the maneuver technology
>   used.  HEPlaR (and it's fuel usage)... A return to thruster plates...

and 

ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch) commented:

>From what Don has written recently and Marc's comments over the last
>few months I can make a *really* good guess on this one. Thruster
>plates! Thruster plates! Thruster plates! <g>  

However, we all know that TNE said "Thrusters are reactionless so we don't
like them any more" or words to that effect...

The following document was sent to Imperium Games a while back, in an
attempt to rationalise the use of thrusters in the new Traveller. It's not
intended to be super-technical, so don't flame us for any oddities. It was
just an idea, which Ken Whitman seemed to like. Comments are welcome,
directly or via the TML.

Andy :-)
_______________________________________________________________________
   ooooo
 000000000   B R I T I S H  I S L E S  T R A V E L L E R  S U P P O R T
00000000000
OOOOOOOOOOO  A British Forum for Traveller - the Game of the Far Future
 OOOOOOOOO
   ooooo     Coordinator: Andrew Lilly (A.S.Lilly@bnr.co.uk)
__B_I_T_S______________________________________________________________

Ref:    BITS/0104
Date:   26th April 1996
Author: A.S.Lilly
This document and all related data is (c)1996 A.S.Lilly. The opinions 
expressed in this survey are those of the author.

T H R U S T E R   T E C H N O L O G Y
=====================================

The thrusters of 'Classic' and 'Mega' Traveller (CT and MT) were 
discarded in The New Era (TNE) for fusion drives et al., on the grounds 
that the thrusters were 'reactionless' and could not be explained using 
the current laws of physics. Heated discussion on the "xboat" and 
"traveller" mailing lists has indicated that many people preferred the 
original 'thrusters' but no logical explanation (using either 'soft' or 
'hard' science) could be found for their operation.

Discussion between myself and BITS member Nick Munn has brought us to 
the conclusion that thrusters CAN be explained using Traveller 'canon'.

Some 'Canon'
- ------------

Several points of apparent 'canon' should be considered:

(1) Thrusters have existed throughout Traveller 'canon' until TNE.

(2) Thrusters are associated with gravitics technology (Starship 
Operator's Manual and other sources).

(3) Operating thrusters emit a (blue?) glow of brightness proportionate 
to their operating level (Starship Operator's Manual and other sources).

(4) Jump grids emit a glow when powering up to enter jump space 
(Starship Operator's Manual and other DGP sources).

(5) Thrusters on almost all deck plans have some form of link to the 
outside of the ship, much like a conventional jet exhaust.

(6) Thrusters were discarded in TNE because their 'reactionless' 
operation did not fit with the 'hard' science desired by GDW.

(7) Ships are supposed to have some form of huge central fly-wheel/gyro 
to form a centre of momentum about which they turn (Starship Operator's 
Manual). However, I am unaware of any canon, or non-canon deckplan which 
incorporates such a flywheel/gyro!

(8) Thrusters have a main thrust direction but can direct a reduced 
proportion of thrust to the side or even in the reverse direction 
(Starship Operator's Manual and other sources).

A new 'Canon' for Thrusters
- ---------------------------

Given (3) and (4), Nick and I started pursuing the possibility (however 
tenuous) that there is some link between jump drives and thrusters. In 
order to counteract (6), we must assume that the thruster is emitting 
something away from itself to produce the forward thrust force (i.e. 
equal and opposite reaction principle). However, this 'output' does not 
appear to be into normal space, hence the 'reactionless' tag applied by 
GDW in TNE.

Let us assume that the thruster is indeed producing some form of output 
force. This will be some form of gravity force, i.e. via gravitons or 
somesuch (hence the link with gravitics of (2)). However, this is being 
output not into normal space but into one of the alternative dimensions 
associated with jump space. Original discussions many years ago with 
Marc Miller indicated that each jump distance (from 1 to 6) was 
associated with a separate jump dimension. Our 'thruster' dimension is 
clearly a weaker link and thus might be linked to the Jump 1 dimension 
or a lower dimension.

We therefore need an interface to this dimension. We don't really want 
this inside the ship, so we need to let some part of the drive protrude 
slightly outside the ship, explaining (5). The interface will glow, much 
like a jump grid when it is in operation, explaining (3).

If we can control the gravitational flow across this interface (either 
across the width of a single interface, or by using two interfaces, one 
pulling, one pushing) then we can exert forces sideways or even in 
'reverse' (i.e. 'pulling' against the interface to produce drag on a 
craft down). It seems logical that it will be easier to 'push' against 
the interface than to 'pull' (the latter being likely to weaken the 
interface), and hence the thrust off-axis will be reduced, satisfying 
(8). This also removes the need for a central gyro system of (7) which 
appears never to have been accepted as 'canon' anyway.

Summary
- -------

Our new 'canon' for thrusters satisfies points (2) to (7) and allows 
thrusters to combine some simple physical science with the science-
fiction 'mystery' of jump drives, gravitics and extra-dimensional space, 
to produce a logical, working thruster system. This satisfies our 
original aim (1), i.e. to bring thrusters back into the mainstream 
'canon' of Traveller.

E N D   O F   D O C U M E N T
=============================


------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 07:23:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Apology/Question

>         In an attempt to include everybody in the effort to create a simpler
> design system, I figured I'd email all three lists, and just live with the
> duplicate messages. This probably was *not* a good idea. Would everybody be
> happier if I just hit one list, and trust everybody who's interested to make
> sure they're subscribed?

No its not a save assumption.  I'm not on that list.  I'm also not opposed
to creating a T4-beta list either.  Though I would recommend a traveller as
the list of choice, since it is the primary traveller list (and has the larger
FF&S supporters).  I dont know much about the GDW-beta list.  However since this 
is no longer a GDW product, is it appropriate to keep associating it with GDW?
 
Rob

- -- 
Rob Miracle
rwm@mpgn.com
for webmaster@mpgn.com

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest            Monday, 3 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 052

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Ship Design System
         2. Re:  FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin
         3. Couple of points
         4. Starship design...
         5. Thruster plates and jump-drives...
         6. Re: New or Old Starship Designs
         7. Re: Barstool Science?
         8. Re: FF&S Light Challenge
         9. Re: Starship Design
        10. Re: Traveller and the Internet 
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #39
        12. Starship and Vehicle Design Issue/Problem
        13. Vaccuum Particle Densities

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: csbennet@lava.net (Morgan)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 03:32:32 -1000
Subject: Ship Design System

I just thought I'd interject some thoughts into this discussion :

>Power Generators (Fusion Plants really) would be standard sized units
>that produce a standard power out and use a standard amount of
>fuel/hr.  I based mine on a standard 6 (2x2x1.5) cubic meter size
>using cold fusion to generate 4MW, admittedly this didn't come from
>any canonical source.

As long as they do the same thing, for the basic purposes you could call
them batteries or duracells or clockwork mechanisma or whatever. Part of the
hypnotic luster of FF&S (for me) was the explanations for why the numbers
did this or didn't do that.


>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>

>        Well, it would be rather presumptuous of me to try to do this on my
>own. Especially since somebody else first came up with the idea. Instead,
>I'm volunteering to act as a kind of coordinator. I've already got a rough
>draft, and I'm asking everybody to tear into what I've got. If we can all
>come up with a design sequence that satisfies everybody, we can only win.
>Gearheads: look at what I've got, see if it makes sense. Non-gearheads,
>especially those yearning for something as simple as Book2/High Guard, shred
>into it. Rational criticism is always welcome.

Gearhead I am not. But INMO more is better on the order of "if I don't like
it I can ignore it later" and such. However, as much as time allows (don't
hold your breath- finals are coming soon) I think I can try to assist in
whatever capacity as I am able.

>A few requirements I've set myself
>   1. Should come damn close to CT/HG in simplicity. I've got an initial
>goal of no 
>      more than 10% more steps or calculations. I don't know how doable
this is,
>      but it's a starting point.

Steps are rarely a problem in limiting complexity. For an example,(albeit
one that might show some of my gaming heritage) AD&D second edition
character creation can have MANY steps, and still are simple enought that I
have taught a group of 15 year olds the system in about 10-15 minutes (and
only because there were so many of them). The main point about limiting
design steps is that indexing too many pages worth of steps will get to be a
bitch, and also that I'm sure that Mr. Perrin has only a set amount of space
to work with. Thats something you don't think about on the computer much,
but it translate quite vividly when trying to market your product for cost.

>   2. Straightline design sequence -- no flipping back and forth. Each step
>      should rely only on information already recorded and information
>      presented in the step itself.

Amen. Suggest to Mr. Perrin that if I ever see a book of design sheets sold
as a separate product from the design workbook ever again I will probably
rip the game to pieces on the spot.

>   4. Based on FF&S, and fully compatible with it.

I'm not sure ANYTHING is compatible with FF&S. I think a better (wording
perhaps?) would be to have a product that preserves the spirit and essence
of FF&S. Of course I spent months playing with alternate drives right after
I got it. I don't claim to be anywhere near a majority viewpoint.

>   6. The rules should provide 
>      a. Thruster plates or equivalent low-fuel reactionless drives for those 
>         who like the feel in CT and MT.
>      b. "Realistic" drives, especially for those like me who like the
>tradeoffs 
>         limited maneuver fuel forces into combat.

I don't agree that the basic version requires "realistic" drives. I like 'em
too, but everyone important in T4 will be using Thruster plates to move the
metal. Other systems can wait for a supplement (I hate to imagine me
actually suggesting this but, you could move ALL of the alternate
technologies to ANOTHER supplement and make a bundle off of people like me
who like the idea of powering out to Jumpradius by lightsail) However much
you might dislike them sometimes as a consumer, you only have to look again
to TSR to find out where the money is in the gaming industry nowadays (The
Complete Traveller?)

>   7. Perhaps provide both CT/MT style anti-gravity (my favorite) and TNE style
>      contragravity?

Ditto as above. I would like though a reason why antigrav works THIS way and
not THAT way blah blah blah included into the basics...I tend to design for
stylistic effects, not just for hardcore results. What flavor of gravity
control I'm using has a big effect on how I do things.

*An Aside***********************************************************************
>Why would people buy ship designs that are already available free on the net?

Because I sold my printer and carting my PC to the game store just so I can
check stats isn't an option?
********************************************************************************

>2.  Seriously, I visualize Traveller ships to be a good bit like steam
>ships early this century.  All large steam ships had multiple
>boilers..why?  So one could be taken down for service or repair and
>still have 3/4, 1/2 power.  Warships, especially, would want
>redundancy.

I think this is a matter of style as for the power plants...Once you have
them and they plug in you could do pretty much what you wanted with them
right? If you want to have two 1500MW powerplants or 1 1500MW and 1500 1 MW
powerplants shouldn't change anything about the basic numbers, which should
be IMO : 
Powerplant   Volume Mass Price Output
It's simple and it works. I don't even think this needs to be thought out.
This is a style issue. The warship with doubled full output powerplants
though is wasting a grand opportunity to find a waste for all that juice ;-)


>Second, we always pick the hull size & configuration first..what if we
>didn't?  What if we did it backwards:  
>
>1. picked out all the systems that go into the ship
>
>2. put in a plant to power them
>
>3. put in a maneuver drive 
>
>4. put in tanks for the fuel
>
>6. put in a jump drive and fuel for it
>
>5. put in a minimum cargo area
>
>6. added it all up and picked the next biggest hull
>
>Would that be easier for everybody than having to keep fiddling trying
>to fit everything in a 800ton hull?

I actually work my designs on the level of this:

What does it do and how does it do it?

This usually gets me target numbers for the jump performance and maneuver
performance. 
If it is a merchantman I put down cargo first, hopefully I'll know how much
I want to throw around at a time.
If it is a warship, I would put in the weapons (nothing spoils your warship
more than "I don't have enough room to put a powerplant in")

I don't think I've ever worked a sequence by the numbers yet. Hmmm, I do
tend to choose hull sizes very quickly though. That may be more intuitive
than anything else though.

I have to go to sleep myself. The sun is coming up 8-)



------------------------------

From: jamesd@spirit.com.au (James Dempsey)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 96 00:33:15 
Subject: Re:  FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin

On Jun 02 Dave Golden wrote:

> At 10:02 pm 6/2/96 -0400, Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> wrote:
> >About the only thing I can think of in regard to FF&S fixes that are
> >critical at this stage of the game are:
> >1) The "laser limit" rule, which I feel should be added.
>
>         Check. I'd like to avoid an "arbitrary" rules, though. Anybody
> remember how the last argument about his ended? All I remember is a long,
> paint-fume-induced ramble in which I proved I'd forgotten most calculus.
>
  As promised, here is Upton Django's proposed solution to the problem. I 
don't recall much discussion happening on it, but there it is.

BFN,
James Dempsey
- ---------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au
 homepage: http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd


- ------------------- Begin Included file ---------------------------------
TRAVELLER digest 464  Message number  10

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 14:26:00 EST
From: "Upton, Django" <DUpton@vtrnntov.telecom.com.au>
To: hiwg-list <hiwg-list@fwe.com>, tml <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Laser Power limit.
Message-ID: <30917AA7@msmailv0.telecom.com.au>


I've got a different idea to the TL*50 power limit.

Try 250MJ input power per square metre of FA surface area MAXIMUM.

This can be justified by technobabble along the lines of "micro-distortions
in the FA at relatively low power levels causing beam distortion and heat
build-up".

Note that this removes a particularly arbitrary looking self imposed limit,
means that really powerful lasers mass/vol etc increase with the cube of the
power rather than the square, deals with the HPG problem to some degree and
makes non-grav focussed lasers worth a really good look.

Django.

- -------------------- End Included file ----------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 11:37:28 -0300
Subject: Couple of points

Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu> wrote

>Interplanetary Medium?  Say what?
>
>The only 'medium' between planets is stark, empty space

Ah... No.  There is a fair amount of junk in interplanetary space (comet
debris, solar wind particles, etc.)  Most of what we do in space there days
can ignore all that because we are not going all that fast, and the really
big chunks are pretty rare.  Bump the speed up to about 1000 km/s (which you
do given continous acceleration movement between planets) and this gets
serious.  You either armour the ship to resist sandblasting (and not just
the front, you have to allow for turnover) or do something non-material
about it.  I think that's what Merrick was talking about.

a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk (Andy Lilly) wrote

>Given (3) and (4), Nick and I started pursuing the possibility (however 
>tenuous) that there is some link between jump drives and thrusters. 

I can live with this.  Actually, since I can enjoy a Larry Niven story in
which Louis Wo calmly refers to reactionless thrusters and gets on with his
life, I'm not going to worry about it at all.   I'll only get uptight if the
game abandons vector movement.
 
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
Atlantic LRMI


------------------------------

From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:40:06 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Starship design...

One thing that confuses me about this debate on starship design... if 
the people who think that the information presented in the FF&S book 
is far too detailed then why bother using it at all.  The designs in 
the back of the TNE book are good enough so that you can look at a 
400-ton lab ship (or whatever) and say something like... okay, it has 
a crew of - say - 18, such-and-such weapons/staterooms/sensors, etc., 
etc.  Those who want the detail plug it into FF&S when they have the 
time.

Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, BSc. Archaeology (Leicester University)

  "Ha!  'Tis only a flesh wound..."

------------------------------

From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:52:19 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Thruster plates and jump-drives...

If this was they way that you could go, then it clearly sounds a bit 
like the Displacement and Jump Drives of *Aliens* (can't remember who 
published the game, but the same people as *Pheonix Command* I seem 
to remember), and somewhat like the 'basic' operation of the Warp 
Drive in Star Trek (i.e. oscillating between subspace in Planck time, 
etc., etc.).  If this was used, it would give a limit to the speed at 
which ships travelled (limit in delta-v which someone said that they 
wouldn't mind if they returned to thruster plate technology, I 
think). 

With regard to the space that would now be available when you get rid 
of the reaction mass, why don't you just increase the size of some of 
the other components?

Thanks for listening...

Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, BSc. Archaeology (Leicester University)

  "Ha!  'Tis only a flesh wound..."

------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:03:50 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: New or Old Starship Designs

> ... and lo, Merrick Burkhardt (merrick@rt66.com) did say unto the masses:
> and Wes Payne  said: 
> A fusion/plasma gun becomes a C-PAW when it becomes something else 
> entirely, namely a particle accelerator.  As I recall, particle 
> accelerators have their own spot in the High Guard USP.  The whole USP 

I meant in real terms.  Plasma=ions with lots-o-velocity (high temp).
CPAWs shoot high velocity ions.  You decide :-)

> > > I'd love to have Traveller go back to HG as that was useful to the average
> > > GM, FF&S was loved by gearheads but required too much work and the physics
> > > behind it was mostly crap so it wasn't useful for my kind of gearheadedness

I didn't say this!  I was quoting it! 

> > A lot of the physics was not perfect, but I like the attempt to
> > charaterize the physics of the technology a little.  Of course a lot of
> > my favorite science fiction involves technology/physics and interesting
> > results of such.  It doesn't have to be as detailed as FFS, but *some*
> > detail (in the background now, to be published later, hopefully) would
> > be nice.
> 
> Some sort of misconception has crept into the whole discussion, and I 
> want to address it here:  Since when do complex design rules detract from 
> the roleplaying experience?  Who the hell, during an actual gaming 

I've never even suggested this---I'm one of the FFS gearheads, rememmber
:-)

> At first, I kinda chafed at the way TNE/FF&S treated lasers.  However, I 
> read an article in one Challenge magazine (I forget which) in which the 
> people who came up with that stuff explained their decisions for making 
> the rules the way they did.  Even so, they bent a few rules of physics to 
> come up with the rules for lasers which many people are decrying as too 
> restrictive or revisionist when it comes to published material (can you 
> say 'Gravitic Focussing?'  I knew you could).  I prefer rules for lasers 
> (and space combat) which have a closer grounding to reality than some 
> fanciful crap I've seen (I won't mention the other game systems) in the past.
> Of course, if someone could cite an example where the new laser rules 
> conflict with old, published Traveller history (Tales of Future Past?), I 
> wouldn't mind.

Sure, easy. Design a BB that fits canon.  I'll make a DD with a 150
laser bay that'll chew it to pieces every time.  You'll never even hit
me, I won't come into MG range.

This assumes you use the broken laser rules in FFS.  Using them you can
make 800ROF lasers that can critical a battleship with an armor of 4000
at 80 hexes---even if you don't let it shoot past 44hexes, it'll hit on
a Difficult or easier task (don't have stuff here now) task at that range 
due to ROF DMs.

That breaks the history since we see that ships actually *use* other
weapons?  why when a laser is always better?

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 10:14:33 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Barstool Science?

 
> While summoning demons, Merrick Burkhardt (merrick@rt66.dom) chanted:
> 
> [bit about repulsors, which I'm not sure I comprehended, or whether it 
>  was comprehensible, snipped]
> 
> > A navigational repulsor would be standard on ships at TLs to support it.
> > Without one, you'd have limited velocities relative to the
> > InterPlanetary Medium (IPM) unless you wanted to trash your ship... has
> > interesting implications.
> 
> Interplanetary Medium?  Say what?
> 
> The only 'medium' between planets is stark, empty space, which is 
> notoriously difficult for anything, radial tires and repulsors included, 

Surely you jest?  Does WWU teach astrophysics?

If you lived someplace where the sky was clearer yopu'd notice something
called the "zodiacal lights" at sunset/sunrise.

This is light reflecting off of dust particles inside the orbit of
Venus.  It is an extreme example of the desity gradient of the IPM.  The
baseline stuff, is, of course hydrogen at something on the order of
atoms/cm^3.  But there is also a significant amount of dust.  More so if
you move through large volumes of space in a time interval (well, more
in the sense that you *hit* more).

I'll give you hard numbers on the densities of the IPM, ISM, and IGMs
once I get to my references.  Bruce, have any handy?

Allowing ships to accelerate at 6gs for days gets you to the point where
your chances of hitting decent scale-sized dust is increased (since you
sweep up more volume by going fast relative to the IPM).  At
relativistic velocities, the hydrogen (solar protons, as well, not to
mention cosmic rays) are cosmic rays.

Yeesh.

> small craft) or, when coupled with a tractor (focussed gravity 
> generator), manipulating nearby objects, it needs something to push on in 
> order to generate a corresponding push in the opposite direction.  In 
> combat, the incoming missile will push just as much on the 
> repulsor-equipped ship as the ship pushes on the missile, although the 
> ship itself, owing to its larger mass, will hardly be budged.  A repulsor 
> cannot push on empty space, and there is no such thing as some convenient 
> 'interstellar medium' that permeates outer space that is there for 
> repulsors to push on.  The thruster plate is a convenient shortcut for 

Are you trying to look dumb?

It would add a drag force, actually.  Simple.  Space is full of atoms
and dust.  It still beats a good lab vaccuum here on earth, but when you
hit that one grain of rice per cubic km (or whatever) at .2c it'll ruin
your whole day.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 09:34:38 -0800
Subject: Re: FF&S Light Challenge

On  2 Jun 96 at 18:37, Joe Walsh spewed:

> > I don't think that the design system should be limited to people that
> > can't add or multiply :-)  HG's most complicated math is to figure,
> > what, energy points?  Agility?  The actual design process has no more
> > than taking %s.
> 
> I am not talking about math so much as the process itself.  That is, the 
> number of steps involved,the number of tables involved, etc.  But, if you 
> read the rest of my earlier reply, you know that I came to the conclusion 
> that what David Golden is proposing is indeed appropriate for beginners.
> 

Joe,

Looking at what your average RPGer uses today, I don't think a book 2 
system (or facsimile thereof) is really going to satisfy a beginner 
anymore.  I thought that book 2 was too abstract in 1981 when I got 
High Guard.  I haven't used it since, and won't use it if it becomes 
the base system for T4. The nice thing about High Guard was that 
although it had a fairly long checklist for design, it was at least 
laid out and presented in good order.  I used to knock out High Guard 
ships in about 30-45 minutes on nothing more than notebook paper with 
a pencil and calculator...

I think that a bigger concern than the type of system for a basic 
ship design system (unless its insanely complex like FF&S), is that 
it be well written, that the steps are in logical order, and that 
they be clear.  Walking people through a couple of examples step by 
step might be good too.  

The other thing to remember is that the bulk of RPGers now are going 
to have access to a spreadsheet.  High Guard is infinitely easy to throw 
onto a spreadsheet (heck I did on Practicalc on the old C-64, back in 1984).  
A modified High Guard style system, with better coverage for sensors and 
screens, and breakouts as far as range, should be a bare minimum.  I 
think that Book 2 is so simple that most non-Traveller RPGers would 
take 1 look at it, sniff, and buy something else instead... 

:-(

Actually, if IG is listening, why not take the time to design, or have
somebody design some sort of a software supplement to design star
ships.  Most people could probably run some sort of a DOS utility. 
You could offer it as a supplement to the "Starships" book for $14.95
or $19.95 or so... 

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 09:54:47 -0800
Subject: Re: Starship Design

On  2 Jun 96 at 13:49, Don Perrin spewed:

> Greetings All;
> 
> It seems that I have been swayed by the myriad of discussions here on the
> Traveller and the XBoat mailing lists. I'm willing to give FF&S Light a
> try. Dave Golden (goldendj@mail.usa.net) has volunteered to coordinate the
> design of this system. Please email comments and suggestions to him.
> 
Don,

I applaud you for soliciting and listening to opinions.  I think that 
you, Marc Miller, and everybody else, stand a great chance of not 
only designing the next Traveller, but probably the BEST Traveller.  
Keep up the good work.

Dave, good work and lots of good caffeine.

Guess I better start reading FF&S.

:-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 13:13:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller and the Internet 

I have had several replies now to my budding PBM traveller idea.  I am
working out details still, but it will be entirely email based, perhaps
with *optional* real time sessions (irc ytalk or whatever) from time to
time.  I want to keep it asynchronous to make it easy given the dispersed
nature of time zones, etc.

I am still leaning towards a Classic setting, but am open to suggestions.
I have run some pretty successful non-classic campaigns too (alternate
settings)

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 96 18:32 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #39

In-Reply-To: <199606021846.OAA18498@NS.MPGN.COM>

In message , owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM said:
> From: dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin) Date: Sun, 2 Jun 1996 13:49:10 -0600
> Subject: Starship Design
>  
> It seems that I have been swayed by the myriad of discussions here on the
> Traveller and the XBoat mailing lists. I'm willing to give FF&S Light a
> try. Dave Golden (goldendj@mail.usa.net) has volunteered to coordinate the
> design of this system. Please email comments and suggestions to him.

Yeeee-HA!

Let me buy you both a virtual beer.

> FF&S (and Light) will need a method of creating a USP however. The basic

I never really liked USPs - UPPs & UWPs are fine, but USPs are just too
long to remember. I always needed to look up what went where, which defeats
the object of using that format. 

> combat system will still be High Guard-like. The changes will probably
> include two more range bands (a la Battle Rider - short, medium, long,

No problems here. HG's the only system that's quick and simple enough not
to disrupt the game.

> The Main Book will contain some stock ship designs, their USP's, and the
> Modified High Guard combat system.
>  
> The Starships book will contain more stock ship designs, their deck plans,
> their USP's, the FF&S Light building system, and some other stuff.
>  
> Later, we'll publish FF&S (updated) again under a new name.

Perfect.


                      --------=====OOO=====--------
Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."

------------------------------

From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 13:04:38 -0500
Subject: Starship and Vehicle Design Issue/Problem

Gentlemen,

I would like to know if Don Perrin and Greg Porter have discussed issues
concerning the use of FF&S Lite in the design of starships for MMT. If Greg
does not know what Don is planning and vice versa, then we will have a two
different systems one for starships and another for vehicles/personal
weapons. What that will mean to the referee and players is this:

Player: I firing my Gavit Fairfax 50, on full burn at the hatch to breech
the lock.

Referee: Hmm taking the "fifties" DV converting to Dam/pen, throwing salt
over left shoulder, running the Pentium 166 to factor in variables, looking
up four different tables in two different books and seven pages, takes four
asprin, swallows with a pint of bitter, finally decides on flipping a coin,
"heads it breeches, tails the gun blows up".

I for one WILL not buy a game system that one has to go thru anything like
the above. I have not seen any input from Greg Porter concerning starship
design using FF&S Lite. Despite what some people think the starship and
vehicle/personal weapons systems have to in sync. I also do not believe in
"Let Greg Fix that issue/problem that FF&S has" attitude in order to get
FF&S lite into the Don's deadline. 

I want a QUALITY product if it is late so be it. If it is going to a half
baked, mu-quark nightmare, fix it later product, I will not be a buyer.

IMHO FF&S and FF&S Lite have too many issues/problems that HAVE to
addressed/deal with before either can be considered into the MMT/T4 design
sequence. I do not believe that the issues/problems can be adequately
resolved before the Don deadline. People have stated that the crew size has
been resolved, but no one has posted it to the list lately for the rest of
the list(s). The starship design system and the vehicles/personal weapons
design system HAVE to be as seamless as possible.

Does anyone have Greg Porter's email address, and would you post it. I will
ensure that the last week's messages concerning FF&S lite starship design
will get to him.

Sinbad Sam
AI(Anally Inverted) Virus Black Curtain Holder
sinbad@dfw.net



------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 12:36:00 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Vaccuum Particle Densities

Hmmm, I'm still looking for my IPM notes, but here are some particle
number densities for the InterStellar Medium (ISM):

(Mihalas and Binney, 1981 (old text, sorry :-))

1. Very cold molecular gas---T~=20K, n=1000/cm^3  (this is in a cloud,
these clouds are a small % of the actual volume of IS Space).

2. Hot neutral gas---T~=6000K, n=0.3/cm^3 (about 20% of space)

3. Hot ionized material---T~=8000K, n>0.5/cm^3 (~10% of space, HII
material)

4. vey hot, low density medium---T~=10^6K, n=0.001/cm^3 (near 70% of
space)

5. cold gas---T~=100K, n=20/cm^3 (2-4% of space, but clumped)

These are all gas numbers... dust is a different story.

I'm looking for quick dust numbers, but all I have here right now is
Binney, and a copy of Harwit---her talks about dust, but doesn't give
numbers, I'd have to take molecular density assumptions and "grow"
grains... I wait to get to a better text :-)

- -Merrick

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #52
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 3 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 053

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Starship and Vehicle Design Issue/Problem
         2. Re: FF&S Light Challenge
         3. Pre TL12 Fusion limits
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #46
         5. stuff in general
         6. A clarification
         7. Announcment:  List Update
         8. Re: Barstool Science?
         9. FFS Lite Crew Rules
        10. Re: stuff in general
        11. Space Dust
        12. Re: Space Dust
        13. Re: GDW-Beta List
        14. Re: Starship and Vehicle Design Issue/Problem
        15. Update
        16. GDW Beta List

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 14:43:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Starship and Vehicle Design Issue/Problem

At 01:04 PM 6/3/96 -0500, you wrote:
>I would like to know if Don Perrin and Greg Porter have discussed issues
>concerning the use of FF&S Lite in the design of starships for MMT. If Greg
[deleted]
> Despite what some people think the starship and
>vehicle/personal weapons systems have to in sync. I also do not believe in
>"Let Greg Fix that issue/problem that FF&S has" attitude in order to get
>FF&S lite into the Don's deadline. 

More importantly, Ship Construction, Weapon Design, and The Combat System
go hand in hand.  If the core rules are going to be based off of a CT/HG
based combat system does FF&S as it stand work?  I am buying a role playing
system.  If the combat system doesn't work, my players arnt going to play.
20 Years of evolution doesn't mean things have to be more complex.  They have
to be error free, game balanced, and usable.  The differnt parts have to have continutity between them.  

Rob
- --
Rob Miracle
TanSoft.com
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:01:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: FF&S Light Challenge

On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> > number of steps involved,the number of tables involved, etc.  But, if you 
> > read the rest of my earlier reply, you know that I came to the conclusion 
> > that what David Golden is proposing is indeed appropriate for beginners.
> > 
> 
> Joe,
> 
> Looking at what your average RPGer uses today, I don't think a book 2 
> system (or facsimile thereof) is really going to satisfy a beginner 
> anymore.  I thought that book 2 was too abstract in 1981 when I got 
> High Guard.  I haven't used it since, and won't use it if it becomes 
> the base system for T4. The nice thing about High Guard was that 
> although it had a fairly long checklist for design, it was at least 
> laid out and presented in good order.  I used to knock out High Guard 
> ships in about 30-45 minutes on nothing more than notebook paper with 
> a pencil and calculator...

Er..um...so, are you saying the system proposed by David Golden is too 
abstract, or are you echoing my agreement that David has a good system?  
Your post seems to have a tone of disagreement, but I thought you were in 
support of David's system...

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 15:33:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Pre TL12 Fusion limits

How about Radiation shielding that is developed at TL12 due to control of
this or that force.  Prior (TL11-) shielding had to be physical, and led to
individuals in too close proximity to the Fusion Reaction.  Another point
could be interaction with exterior radiation (Ohh Cosmic Rays!).  That would
have required the Lanthanum coils/grid to absorb radiation to allow the
Fusion Reaction to occur.

Just an Idea, hope it helps.  DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 96 21:43 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #46

In-Reply-To: <199606030104.VAA21591@NS.MPGN.COM>

Oh, for god's sake, sort out those bounced msgs or I'm gonna hit someone.

                      --------=====OOO=====--------
Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."

------------------------------

From: jmg141@psu.edu (John M Gardner)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 16:44:30 -0400
Subject: stuff in general

>First, I'd like to thank Marc, Ken, and Don for talking to us here on the
>list and asking and considering our opinions.  Its nice to have some input
>on where Trav might be headed (at least in some of its aspects).  Thanks guys.

Here here!!  If this kind of behavior keeps up there is bound to be some
fantastic products in production.  There is noting like some good market
research.  (so quoth my wife the economist!)  

> If you start out with the basic system, and then try to graft on a
>more detailed system, you're going to have trouble with the compatibility.

Ain't it the truth!  As an engineer (by trade) I can tell you that the
design process usually goes from simple to complex, BUT when using an
abstract system to design components (such as bearings, which are usually
selected from a catalog) the detailed work must have already been done.
This is just another example of real world common sence bearing itself out
within a game.

>Call it Megawatts like FF&S does, call it Power Points like High
>Guard does, it doesn't matter. Either is just a way of rating the output of
>generators and the needs of other systems.

Reality check . . .
My players (for the most part) are about as non-technically inclined as they
come.  These folks probably some of the best role players I've ever met
though.  They are however always asking about what capabilities the
machinery has.  Megawatts are something real, somewhat tangible, and provide
an excellent scale for  comparison.  Besides, my players provide some
interisting technobabble :>)

by the way, I hope the new game system makes combat somewhat more deadly.
Having seen real life combat, I tend to believe that it is something that
should not be entered into lightly.  In TNE, I started using a D-20 for
damage dice.  This made the fighting much more deadly, and forced my players
to consider other options before starting a fight.  (just like real life.)

Its just a thought.

- --John


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 16:21:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: A clarification

In an effort to clear up the confusion over my stance on the starship 
design rules (and hopefully forestall any more emails arguing me into a 
position I have already taken! :), I want to say once again that I fully 
support the vision that David Golden has articulated.

I think his idea of a high-level design system based on the low-level 
FF&S system is a good one, given that the high-level system will be 
comprised mostly of menu-like tables from which the user can pick and 
choose options and put them together without much beyond some addition, 
subtraction, and a bit of multiplication.  I think the completeness of 
this system will be welcomed by new players (which was my primary concern 
in the determination of which system to use).  

BTW, I believe the whole confusion over where I stand is my own fault.  
In the last public exchange I had with David, I allowed my thought 
processes to show through.  That is, the first few quote/reply sections in 
the message were dissenting, while the end of the message had quote/reply 
sections that were in agreement.  I was trying to show /why/ I had 
changed my mind, since I had initially been opposed to the FF&S Light 
system.  I didn't want to look like I was just jumping on the bandwagon, 
because that was not the case.  At any rate, I am very sorry for the 
confusion, and I hope this message clears it up.  I want to get beyond 
the argument and into the development stage! :-)

This is an exciting time to be a Traveller enthusiast, and I'm glad to be 
among so many people who not only share my interest, but who have a lot 
of knowledge and ideas that are being put to use so we can all have the 
best Traveller yet.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:58:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Announcment:  List Update

We have made a few changes to Traveller and Xboat today.  
We have restricted posting to address members only.  If you
have difficulty posting (I will get a bounce), then I will work
with you to get a common address that will work.

Also, there has been some discussion about 2300AD, TW2K, and DC.
While I don't have any answers yet from the powers that be, I 
did get permission to:

   a) start a mailing list for the products.

   b) Open the FTP archive for fan generated items.

So here is the juice on them:

    MPG-Net, on behalf of Tantalus Inc.  has created three new mailing 
lists for fans to discuss Dark Conspiracy, Twilight 2000, and 2300AD.  
The lists are:

    2300ad@mpgn.com / 2300ad-digest@mpgn.com
    twilight2000@mpgn.com / twilight2000-digest@mpgn.com
    darkconspiracy@mpgn.com / darkconspiracy-digest@mpgn.com

To subscribe to one of these lists, send mail to:

    majordomo@mpgn.com

and in the body say:

   subscribe listname email address

example:

   subscribe twilight2000-digest bubba@bubba.org


Regarding uploads:

   Tantalus Inc. doesn't mind any fan created materials for Dark Conspiracy, 
Twilight 2000, or 2300AD. You may do so as long as it meets the following
critera:

1. It has to contain a disclaimer.  See ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/DISCLAIMER.TANTALUS
   For text documents, the disclaimer needs to appear at the top of the 
   document.  For programs, it needs to appear on any title/splash screen or
   About box.

2. Tantalus Inc. would like you to upload it to ftp.mpgn.com in the /incoming 
   directory. Then send mail to ftp-maint@mpgn.com that you have uploaded it 
   and its for one of the systems listed here (which this isn't bad advice for 
   any upload) and upload a .submission file.  A template for the .submission file 
   can be downloaded from ftp://ftp.mpgn.com/incoming/template.sub.  After its 
   reviewed to make sure its cool (i.e. you haven't scanned in the books, its not 
   offensive etc.), MPG-Net will put it out for public access.

3. If you have a web page for your product, or gaming, or other appropriate
   content, please include a link to our site http://www.mpgn.com.

The disclaimer reads:

    This item is not authorized or endorsed by Tantalus Inc. and is used
    without permission. The item is for personal use only.  Any use of 
    Tantalus Inc.'s copyrighted material or trademarks in this file should 
    not be viewed as a challenge to those copyrights or trademarks.
    In addition, this item cannot be republished or distributed without 
    the consent of the author.


Now for the products themselves, I really don't have any answers so asking
isn't going to do much good.

Rob
- -- 
Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
for webmaster/traveller-request/xboat-request/2300ad-request/
darkconspiracy-request/twilight2000-request/ftp-maint@mpgn.com
(Too many hats..... So little hair) (Note none of these are my
day to day job, but spare time things :-)

------------------------------

From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
Date: Mon,  3 Jun 1996 18:29:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Barstool Science?

Wes Payne said:
> The sidenote:  The IG folks are going to have to decide on one system 
> or the other (HEPlaR or thruster plates), because that's going to 
> affect many other things.  If we go back to thruster plates, 
> suddenly there's a whole lot of hull space that doesn't need to be 
> devoted to reaction mass anymore.  Such ships would have a huge 
> inherent advantage over those using physically correct (PC?) HEPlaR 
> drives, unless some game-balancing rule was imposed, such as 
> forcing thruster plate starships to use the volume and mass regained 
> only for hot tubs and pool tables.  Sure, TP ships' crews might have 
> more fun, but there'd be no game-unbalancing advantage when it came 
> time for combat. 

Actually, I think they should go with the FFS approach, where there were 
'official' technologies (e.g., jump drive), but unofficial variants.  The 
answer to the problem of variants unbalancing things is simple: (1) don't use 
them in your campaign; (2) make them a very high tech level.

Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
someday agree with something I say.


------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.avalon.COM>
Date: 3 Jun 96 15:12:53 MS
Subject: FFS Lite Crew Rules

The very overloaded David Golden wrote:
>3) Alternative (smaller) crew rules for civilian ships.
>
>       Already being addressed, although specifics are still in flux (i.e.
>formless). Basically, I'd like to assume that the FF&S crew rules are for
>post-Virus paranoid minimally-automated ships. The basic crew factor for
>each system will be its straight FF&S crew requirement, and then we'll
>multiply by a fraction (dependent on TL?) to come up with crews for more
>automated systems

Would this entail additional equipment/fittings (like the HAIS concept) to 
reduce crew size, or would this be simplified into a (variable) larger volume 
devoted to computers and electronics?  Either one seems workable; I suspect the 
Gearheads will prefer the separate HAIS equipment, while the High Guardians 
will prefer a higher overall electronics volume.

It would be good if this could be done in multiple levels.  For example, a 
yacht or hunting/vacation ship might have near-total automation to preserve the 
guests' solitude, a big MegaCorp freighter might have less automation to save 
on robot maintenance costs (but enough to keep crew costs down), and a military 
vessel might have little automation to retain flexibility in combat.

PS - Combining all of the USP weapon values into one value would be WAY too 
oversimplified.  Please avoid this if at all possible.

Good luck on your task.
Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 15:45:16 -0700
Subject: Re: stuff in general

>>Call it Megawatts like FF&S does, call it Power Points like High
>>Guard does, it doesn't matter. Either is just a way of rating the output of
>>generators and the needs of other systems.
>
>Reality check . . .
>My players (for the most part) are about as non-technically inclined as they
>come.  These folks probably some of the best role players I've ever met
>though.  They are however always asking about what capabilities the
>machinery has.  Megawatts are something real, somewhat tangible, and provide
>an excellent scale for  comparison.  Besides, my players provide some
>interisting technobabble :>)

Absolutely.  The format used to create starship and generally adventure in
CT and MT was a system that while created in a wonderfully interesting
setting forced the players and GM's to play inspite of the rules.  THere
seemed to be little rhyme or reason on how equipment worked or if there was
any kind of physical reality that it was based on.

PLAYER:  What is it?

GM:  Its a small back box 25cm by 25cm by 10 cm.

PLAYER:  And when I push the button?

GM:  You trigger a magnitude 10 earthquake that quickly sends the planet
back to the stone age.

PLAYER:  How did it do that?

GM:  Ummmmmm...  Its a sonic. . . no metaphysical. . . no hyperdynamic ...
awww crap, just trust me it flattens the planet.

What kind of a system is that to play in?  Things have to possess some kind
of hard physics behind them, even if the physics are far further advanced
than ours they still need to have some kind of logic behind them.

>by the way, I hope the new game system makes combat somewhat more deadly.
>Having seen real life combat, I tend to believe that it is something that
>should not be entered into lightly.  In TNE, I started using a D-20 for
>damage dice.  This made the fighting much more deadly, and forced my players
>to consider other options before starting a fight.  (just like real life.)

Truthfully, having studied forensic's and having to watch numerous FBI and
local police video's on the lethality of gunshot wounds I"ve come the the
conclusion that generally speaking gunshots are only slightly more deadly
than they are portrayed in TNE and not nearly as effective as the average
person tends to beleive.  Short of being peppered with ammunition, ie.
shotgun or fully automatic gunfire, nine time out of ten its a lucky bullet
that kills an individual.

Case in point.  THe FBI had a fugitive trapped in a small area, the fugitive
started firing at the FBI, who in return fired back.  THis went on for
several minutes before the individual got into a car and sped off.  Ten
blocks later the suspect dropped dead.  He'd been shot over thirty five
times causing apparently minor damage, the thirty-sixth shot had penetrated
the individuals heart causing him to die.  This fellow was shot with .38's,
.45's, 9mm's and shotguns.

As I said its usually the lucky bullet which kills an individual.  The human
body is an amazingly resiliant piece of equipment and bullets do really
strange thing when they encounter it.

Second point.  An individual in LA had been targeted by a gang for death.
The gang members got a hold of this fellow tied him up.  Shot him in both
knee caps, in the chest, in the mouth and through the forehead.  He walked
away after they left.  The attending surgeons couldn't beleive this guys
luck.  None of the bullets, fired close enough to leave powder burns on the
mans flesh, had hit any major organs.  In fact the shot to the head had
penetrated between the eyes bounced right and left a groove around the
interior of his skull before exiting at the exact point of entrance.

Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.

D. Stanley


------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 96 19:18:31 -0400
Subject: Space Dust

Hi

>>Interplanetary Medium?  Say what?
>>
>>The only 'medium' between planets is stark, empty space

>Ah... No.  There is a fair amount of junk in interplanetary space (comet
>debris, solar wind particles, etc.) 

At a recent conference I was at, someone mentioned that most of the
dust in the solar system comes from collisions in the asteroid belt. 
Assuming that is correct, (I know very little about Solar System
Astronomy) then systems where there are no planetoid belts would have
very little zodiacal dust.  I don't think this would have much game
use, but I thought it was interesting.  

Lewis

------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 17:40:02 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Space Dust

 
> At a recent conference I was at, someone mentioned that most of the
> dust in the solar system comes from collisions in the asteroid belt. 
> Assuming that is correct, (I know very little about Solar System
> Astronomy) then systems where there are no planetoid belts would have
> very little zodiacal dust.  I don't think this would have much game
> use, but I thought it was interesting.  

True, but that'd be an extreme density anyway.  The real question is
this:  When do the chances of hitting a rice grain and being destroyed
start to bother you, or your passengers, or your insurance company?

As for the game use...

Knowing how your armor withstands such stuff would help to answer this
question.  Knowing things like the (as you point out) the local density
of such dust also helps.  It adds flavor and hooks, as well---your ship
has weak armor, so your insurance premiums go up when you decide to
operate in certain systems.  The system ship traffic control beakons
warn of a local increase in IPM density due to a recent comet close
flyby---keep velocity relative to mainworld below 100km/s.

Repulsors would work well for armor in this case... they can stop dense
particles (missiles) moving at 100s of km/s.  We could get a ball park
figure then on how fast a "typical" nasty dust particle could be
deflected.  

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 18:00:54 -0600
Subject: Re: GDW-Beta List

At 01:15 am 6/3/96 -0600, you wrote:
>On 06/02/96 at 10:54 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> said:
>
>>        The GDW-Beta list is probably the most appropriate, but I

>I'm not, but I'd like to be.  I've asked this before without
>reply...How do I go about joining the GDW-Beta List?  What's the
>address?  Who do I contact?

The posting address is:

	gdw-beta@qrc.com

If you want to subscribe to the list, send e-mail to:

	gdw-beta-request@qrc.com
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 18:01:17 -0600
Subject: Re: Starship and Vehicle Design Issue/Problem

At 01:04 pm 6/3/96 -0500, sam thomas <sinbad@qrc.com> wrote:
>Gentlemen,
>
>I would like to know if Don Perrin and Greg Porter have discussed issues
>concerning the use of FF&S Lite in the design of starships for MMT. If Greg
>does not know what Don is planning and vice versa, then we will have a two
>different systems one for starships and another for vehicles/personal
>weapons. What that will mean to the referee and players is this:

        I queried Don about this, because I agree ... my second-most
favorite thing about TNE (after FF&S) was the fact that the _entire_ range
of weapons, from handguns to battleship spinal mounts, use the same basic
system. Don agrees, and he says the coordination will happen. Worst comes to
worst, the predesigned weapons in FF&S Light can be redesigned in less than
a day, and replaced BEFORE it gets printed.

>resolved before the Don deadline. People have stated that the crew size has
>been resolved, but no one has posted it to the list lately for the rest of

        Sorry, I thought I'd explained my thinking. The "Crew Factor" listed
in my tables is the FF&S crew the system needs. FF&S, being written for TNE
with Virus, assumes automation is very low and unintelligent. A simple
fractional multiplier would then be used to reduce that crew factor down for
more automated ships. This tweak doesn't invalidate FF&S, it just expands on it.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 18:01:41 -0600
Subject: Update

        OK, I'm back from work, I've read the massive load of messages that
have accumulated (don't you people have to go to work?), and answered the
ones that could receive quick answers. Of course, there's probably been at
least 20 new messages since I downloaded the last batch. Now to go back and
take all the suggestions and try to work them in. Look for new stuff posted
to the Web _late_ tonight.

        As a reminder: To ease the load on the normal lists, and avoid
dumping on those who aren't that interested, the discussion is moving to the
GDW-Beta list. The logic behind this is:

        1) This is more or less the function of the Beta List anyway. IIRC,
it was originally started as a volunteer effort to critique the design rules
for TNE.

        2) The GDW-Beta list is archived realtime to the WWW at
           http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/gdw-beta/

        3) Echoing everything to three different lists means everybody who's
on more than one has to wade through three copies of everything.

The posting address is:

	gdw-beta@qrc.com

If you want to subscribe to the list, send e-mail to:

	gdw-beta-request@qrc.com

You can post to the list without being subscribed. So if you don't want to
get all the mail, but occasionally browse the archive and want to comment
you can.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@worldweb.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 20:03:28 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: GDW Beta List

I echo Eris Reddoch's query:  how does one get onto the GDW Beta List?  - Bill

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #53
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Traveller-digest            Tuesday, 4 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 054

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. More dust :-)
         2. Thruster Plates and Fractional Jump Space (fjs)
         3. Re: FFS Lite Crew Rules
         4. Re: Starship and Vehicle Design Issue/Problem
         5. FFS Hull Armour values
         6. Re:  Starship and Vehicle Design Issue/Problem
         7. Re: FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin
         8. Re: Barstool Science?
         9. 2 m squares
        10. Re: FFS Hull Armour values
        11. Re: Starship and Vehicle Design Issue/Problem
        12. Re: 2 m squares
        13. fusion plus

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 18:02:52 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: More dust :-)

I think it's important to realize the at turn-around in CT/MT ships
going to, say, a far gas giant would be moving at 1000s of km/s relative
to the orbital motions of dust.  Unless they move much faster, solar
protons shouldn't me much more of a problem than usual.

At 1000km/s a 1gram rock will deliver 500MJ to the target.  A 0.1g grain
would contribute 50MJ.

Travel for 2 weeks at 6gs and you'll be going over 72,000km/s.  That
10th of a gram particle now delivers some 260,000MJ.  Make it a 100th of
a gram and knock off an order of magnitude.  You're still dead.  A
miligram and you're still dead.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 96 19:06:55 -0600
Subject: Thruster Plates and Fractional Jump Space (fjs)

Absolutely wonderful!

The terminology is different from what I've done since CT, but the
effects are the same!

On 06/03/96 at 11:36 AM,  a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk (Andy Lilly) said:

>Let us assume that the thruster is indeed producing some form of
>output  force. This will be some form of gravity force, i.e. via
>gravitons or  somesuch (hence the link with gravitics of (2)).
>Our 'thruster' dimension is  clearly a weaker link and
>thus might be linked to the Jump 1 dimension  or a lower dimension.

I've been calling it "hyper-space", but I like "Fractional Jump space"
much better!  It links Jump and Maneuver Drive tech together and with
gravtics as well.  Now the whole tech structure can be grouped around
gravity control, I *like* this.

>We therefore need an interface to this dimension. We don't really
>want  this inside the ship, so we need to let some part of the drive
>protrude  slightly outside the ship, explaining (5). The interface
>will glow, much  like a jump grid when it is in operation, explaining
>(3).

Ooh!  Neat!  I've *been* doing it like this:  MDrive is internal, it
injects mass at near c into a small hyper-space area where it
translates into velocities of >200c accelerating the ship.  So my
drive isn't reactionless, but the reaction mass is *very* small
compared to 'realistic' rockets.  The mass leaves the area re-emerging
into N space behind the ship as a swarm of quarks releasing energy as
a blue glow.

I'll probably change "hyper space" to "fractional J space" (fjs), and
inject gravitons rather than simple matter.  Hum, I might still want
to inject mass and use the gravtics to *create* the opening into
fjs..there are good role playing elements in needing mass onboard for
movement through N space.

One more point...Velocity limits!

I ran into the planet killer shuttle early on, and have squashed
that..effect.  Here's my solution, see how it strikes you...

Acceleration by ships is at several hundred g, but maximum velocity is
limited to between 10 and 20 million kph, depending on a number of
factors:  TL, engineering skill, Mdrive quality. I do this by giving
the "hyperspace" field area (now fjs) an inherent drag,  (In fact,
this drag effect is how I explain the time in jump space too, so fjs
fits even better!) that limits speeds.  Maintaining speed requires
continuing thrust (continuing to use up mass).  If you leave the fjs
field on (requiring power), but cut thrust you'll decelerate toward
zero relative over several hours.  If you turn off the fjs field, you
would maintain the velocity you'd built up...except the way I do it
<g> the fjs field once created will persist for over an hour after you
turn it off slowing you down anyway.  Fast deceleration requires
flipping over and producing counter thrust.

Effect:  Ships in space can go from 0 relative to a max velocity of
10-20 million kph during about an hour of acceleration.  They can
travel across a system maintaining that velocity by continuing thrust. 
Nearing their destination, they can
decelerate and match orbital velocities.

Jumps can only be initiated at great distances from stellar
objects..generally >2AU.  Ships leave jump space only *very* near a
stellar massed object.  It takes a slow merchant ship a little over 24
hours to get from where it jumps in to where it can jump out. Fast
ships (fast merchants, scouts, couriers, warships) can cut the time
down to 12 to 16 hours.  This forces ships to stay in system for
extended periods..with all the danger that could entail.  It makes gas
giant refueling less useful..it takes a long time to get out to the
outer system.  Ships are more likely to seek water/hydrogen on planets
instead of trying to get it from the outer system.  I compensate for
the extra time a ship spends in a system by making the time in jump
space a little shorter, ~150 hours and 10% less for each jump level
less than the drives max rating.  EX:  J3 drive - jump3 takes ~150hr,
jump2 takes ~135hr, jump1 takes ~121hr.

I know this doesn't match canon, but it's the way I do it, and it
works nicely.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 18:33:18 -0600
Subject: Re: FFS Lite Crew Rules

At 01:50 pm 6/3/96 MS, you wrote:
>The very overloaded David Golden wrote:
>>3) Alternative (smaller) crew rules for civilian ships.
>>
>>       Already being addressed, although specifics are still in flux (i.e.
>>formless). Basically, I'd like to assume that the FF&S crew rules are for
>>post-Virus paranoid minimally-automated ships. The basic crew factor for
>>each system will be its straight FF&S crew requirement, and then we'll
>>multiply by a fraction (dependent on TL?) to come up with crews for more
>>automated systems
>
>Would this entail additional equipment/fittings (like the HAIS concept) to 
>reduce crew size, or would this be simplified into a (variable) larger volume 
>devoted to computers and electronics?  Either one seems workable; I suspect
the 
>Gearheads will prefer the separate HAIS equipment, while the High Guardians 
>will prefer a higher overall electronics volume.

        Actually, I was planning on neither ... what I'm thinking of as
automation isn't mechanical stuff that fixes things, etc. It's software that
enhances the ability of the user, and hence doesn't really add space.

Example: Now, instead of having a guy sitting in front of a radar screen, a
guy sitting in front of an infrared scanner, a third guy monitoring the
optical telescope -- you pipe a processed, enhanced and interpreted image
combining all three to one guy (sensor fusion).

Or, instead of having a dozen people monitoring dumb readouts in engineering
to baby the power plant, you've got one guy with his feet up on the
terminal, watching the computer watch the system

Why am I thinking along these lines? It's much simpler and quicker to
implement than coming up with new rules for controls, etc, and it extends
FF&S without changing any of the existing FF&S rules. In the same manner you
can say Einsteinian physics didn't change Newtonian -- it merely addressed
an area not covered by Newtonian.

Not that I'm opposed to new rules -- we're in a time crunch here. If
somebody can pull up the HAIS rules (I've lost them), and integrate them
into the existing FF&S rules, I'll slap them in and go to bat for them. But
they've got to be something we can pull back out, just like we can take the
crew multipliers back out, if we have to.


<BRAINFLASH>
        Duh... if I'm talking about multiplying the crew numbers as an
"extension" to the rules, we can also multiply the basic control system
numbers by a factor ... say, for example, at TL12, each 10% increase in size
in the basic control system gives you a 5% reduction in crew requirements.

        Anybody wanna take this & run with it?
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 20:16:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Starship and Vehicle Design Issue/Problem

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@qrc.com>
At 06:01 PM 6/3/96 -0600, you wrote:
>At 01:04 pm 6/3/96 -0500, sam thomas <sinbad@qrc.com> wrote:
>>Gentlemen,
>>
>>I would like to know if Don Perrin and Greg Porter have discussed issues
>>concerning the use of FF&S Lite in the design of starships for MMT. If Greg
>>does not know what Don is planning and vice versa, then we will have a two
>>different systems one for starships and another for vehicles/personal
>>weapons. What that will mean to the referee and players is this:
>
>        I queried Don about this, because I agree ... my second-most
>favorite thing about TNE (after FF&S) was the fact that the _entire_ range
>of weapons, from handguns to battleship spinal mounts, use the same basic
>system. Don agrees, and he says the coordination will happen. Worst comes to
>worst, the predesigned weapons in FF&S Light can be redesigned in less than
>a day, and replaced BEFORE it gets printed.
>

>From your above statement it would appear that until very recently there has
been no coordination. 
As for redesign try this
Lasers
(delivered energy in joules X .735/Beam Diameter in mm)^.5=A Guns Guns Guns
Damage Value

2.5(sqrt(DE(1/r^2)\) to arrive at FF&S Damage value.

I for one would not care to convert one design to another even with
extensive spreadsheet experience much less in less than a day.

>>resolved before the Don deadline. People have stated that the crew size has
>>been resolved, but no one has posted it to the list lately for the rest of
>
>        Sorry, I thought I'd explained my thinking. The "Crew Factor" listed
>in my tables is the FF&S crew the system needs. FF&S, being written for TNE
>with Virus, assumes automation is very low and unintelligent. A simple
>fractional multiplier would then be used to reduce that crew factor down for
>more automated ships. This tweak doesn't invalidate FF&S, it just expands
on it.

Give your system a benchmark then
a 100 ton needle/AF with 2 jump and 2G manueover and a crew of one!!

>--________________________________________________________________
>   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net


------------------------------

From: James.Dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au
Date: 04 Jun 96 11:27:59 +0000
Subject: FFS Hull Armour values

        Hulls in FFS Lite will probably need to have standardised armour 
packages to make the tables simpler but still allow for some variety in 
armour. 

Suggestions for categories were:

Civilian Standard
Civilian Heavy
Military Standard
Military Heavy

        So far, Dave has come up with an armour value of 60 for Civilian 
Standard, given hulls stressed for 6Gs. What about the other packages? What 
values should they have? I would expect that the hulls would be designed to 
resist shots up to a given factor plus a small excess. 
     
     
BFN,
James Dempsey
- ----------------------------------------
  jamesd@spirit.com.au
  james.dempsey@hr-m.b-m.defence.gov.au


------------------------------

From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 20:40:08 -0500
Subject: Re:  Starship and Vehicle Design Issue/Problem

At 02:55 PM 6/3/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Note: I limited followups to the GDW-Beta list in an attempt to keep the
>bandwidth (and flamage) under control.

Note: I ncluded all lists that I have access to to gain a greater concensus.

>sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net> wrote:
>> If Greg does not know what Don is planning and vice versa, then we will
>> have a two different systems one for starships and another for
>> vehicles/personal weapons.
>
>I'm less worried about this; both FF&S and all of Greg's products use
>"real-world" values as a stage in the design process.  In other words, we
>know how many megajoules a given laser is, and we know the thickness and
>toughness of a given armor value.
>

I for am worried about having two entirely different systems, you might give
his G^3 and More Guns a glance

>From the example that Greg Posted

Penetration scale:
Dagger - 1
Light/medium pistol, sword, bow - 2 (current 9mm pistol)
heavy pistol, heavy melee weapon, crossbow  - 3 (current .44)
Carbine (generic bullpup) or seriously heavy pistol - 4 (M-16)
ACR - 5 to 6
Light crew served - 7 to 8 (a current 20mm is 8 or 9, while a .50cal is 6-7)
RPG-7 - 20
A heavy AT missile like a Hellfire would be in the 38-40 range on this scale.

There is more than a differance in scale it the method of approaching the
weapons design.

>Even if starship combat and personal/vehicle combat are on different scales
>(and I think they should be, because otherwise we have starship weapons that
>must be computed in the hundreds of thousands of hits, or handguns that do
>fractional hits) then it is a relatively simple matter to provide a
>conversion between the two.
>
Hmm let test this out with a example

The Starship "Go For it" has landed at the starport "Ty Me Down". After
having a dispute with planetary authorities the ship attempts to lift off
without permission.

The locals bring out the "Dorkbruiser" Superheavy Assault Tank mounting a
555 Mw Gatling Partical Beam weapon. The "Dorkbruiser" is armored with 100mm
of Hemostatic Crystallized Feldercarb. The Bruiser has Mu-Quark Nightmare
Integrated Sensor Fire Control System with optional beer cooler.

Meanwhile the "Go For It" unlimbers it's 300 Mj Laser Barbette with a it's
own MFD and beam pointer!!! The ship has a Armor Value of 100 in Superdense
Armor.

Gee now the Bruiser's weapon has pen/damage of 45/67 versus 1cm of
Feldercarb armor, the 300 Mj Laser Barbette has pen of...

Well you could see a worst case situation.

>And yes, I do think that it's important to provide such a conversion.
>
>> IMHO FF&S and FF&S Lite have too many issues/problems that HAVE to
>> addressed/deal with before either can be considered into the MMT/T4 design
>> sequence.
>
>Such as? 
>Do you have a list of problems, and perhaps some suggestions for solutions?
>Considering the _extreme_ deadline we're working with, I think that we
>should endevour to be as constructive as possible.
>

Does this mean dam the quality full speed ahead for quanity? If the product
is not ready by deadline it is not ready by deadline.

>> Does anyone have Greg Porter's email address, and would you post it. I will
>> ensure that the last week's messages concerning FF&S lite starship design
>> will get to him.
>
>Greg is a member of the GDW-Beta list.  Since I have recieved no bounces from
>his address, I am sure he has recieved the entire GDW-Beta traffic on the
>subject, including your recent message.  As far as I am aware, all of the
>important messages on the FFS-"lite" design sequences have been posted on
>this list.
>
 Interesting viewpoint if he does not protest then he must be in agreement.
No returned letter the letter got thru.


>wildstar@qrc.com
>------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>                                   Catapultum habeo.  Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi
>                                   dabis, ad caput tuum saxum immane mittam.

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net


------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 20:46:36 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin

> Date: Fri, 27 Oct 95 14:26:00 EST
> From: "Upton, Django" <DUpton@vtrnntov.telecom.com.au>
> To: hiwg-list <hiwg-list@fwe.com>, tml <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Subject: Laser Power limit.
> Message-ID: <30917AA7@msmailv0.telecom.com.au>
>
>
> I've got a different idea to the TL*50 power limit.
>
> Try 250MJ input power per square metre of FA surface area MAXIMUM.
>
> This can be justified by technobabble along the lines of
"micro-distortions
> in the FA at relatively low power levels causing beam distortion and
heat
> build-up".
>
> Note that this removes a particularly arbitrary looking self imposed
limit,
> means that really powerful lasers mass/vol etc increase with the cube
of the
> power rather than the square, deals with the HPG problem to some
degree and
> makes non-grav focussed lasers worth a really good look.

But can I still make a laser that will critical something bigger than
1000 tons that is smaller than a MG that does the same?  If so, it
doesn't work.  We need a solution that limits the DE absolutely so that
lasers are kept only as small weapons.  Anything else smashes all canon
to bits where space weapons are concerned.

The TL*50 DE limit could be explained (technobable coming, duck!) as
follows:

Grav Focused:
Grav focused lasers need to have as small a focal area as possible since
the micro-singularity (or damn steep gravity gradient) used to focus
requires 
the light to be near the optical axis---this ain't a mirror!

DE is the actual energy going through the focusing array, IE is mostly
used (80% in fact!) to create the gravity gradient required to focus
light (a non-trivial task).  TL*50 characterizes the ability for the
grav-focusing array to do its job.

I'd be willing to allow them to work at higher DEs, but have them drop
off so fast after TL*50 that they are useless for ship mounted (even
Mton ships) weapons.

Normal Focusing:
Non-grav focused is harder since as Upton states, it's the energy
density on the mirror/lens that will be the limit (too much and a tiny
mote will make your optics blow up).  Would it help to rewrite his idea
as DE/area?  I'd rather see it work this way, but we still need a TL
addition (we make better optics for this now than we did 20 years ago).

One, the limit should be on DE.  If the optics are what's absorbing
energy, the thing is fried---hey!  Assume it is the optics!  Require
heat sinks for energy above some density that the optics could take (TL
dependant).  Above this energy density (ROF included here!) you need to
get rid of waste heat on the optics, and fast.  A tiny change in the
shape of the optics and you miss the target, much more and you burn off
the reflective coating (how much of a wave by TL15?).

So what we do is that above this threshold we require a big heat sink,
and it gets bigger fast enough that at TL*50 the thing uses straight
FFS, at TL*55 it's impossible to conduct the heat away, and have some
value for inbetween (or just say that for work-a-day uses the gains
aren't worth the reduction in FA life (plus the maint. headaches!).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 23:13:12 -0800
Subject: Re: Barstool Science?

On  3 Jun 96 at 18:29, Christopher Weuve spewed:

> Actually, I think they should go with the FFS approach, where there were 
> 'official' technologies (e.g., jump drive), but unofficial variants.  The 
> answer to the problem of variants unbalancing things is simple: (1) don't use 
> them in your campaign; (2) make them a very high tech level.

Actually, this would be the worst thing they could do...at least for 
the purposes of developing the (OH GOD IT'S THAT WORD AGAIN!) canon.  
Nobody is going to buy into a universe that has two different (and 
in some cases diametrically opposed) assumptions on which to base its 
universe... 

I have to admit that I hate the HEPlaR concept, but I'd rather live 
with it than have 2 explanations.  As far as having alternate 
technologies at a high (read Beyond Imperial Maximum) tech level, its great, but only as long as the 
alternate technology does something spectacular for me.  If I've 
bought a TL15 ship, with Thruster technology, and I stumble upon an 
Ancient artifact ship that's TL21, but has HEPlaR that creates the 
same speed, I'm not exactly going to get excited...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Mon, 3 Jun 1996 23:58:06 -0700
Subject: 2 m squares

Did I read correctly that Imperium Games is contemplating 2 m squares in
deck plans?  Does this have some purpose besides making all existing deck
plans obsolete, so that we'll all have to buy new ones?

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 01:52:32 -0600
Subject: Re: FFS Hull Armour values

At 11:27 am 6/4/96 +0000, James Dempsey wrote:
>
>        Hulls in FFS Lite will probably need to have standardised armour 
>packages to make the tables simpler but still allow for some variety in 
>armour. 
>
>Suggestions for categories were:
>
>Civilian Standard
>Civilian Heavy
>Military Standard
>Military Heavy
>
>        So far, Dave has come up with an armour value of 60 for Civilian 
>Standard, given hulls stressed for 6Gs. What about the other packages? What 

        After talking to you about this, I actually sat down and looked at
what kinds of tables would be required. I'm now thinking this may not be
such a good idea ... it drives the table size _way_ up. Now, for each
combination of displacement, configuration, streamlining and armor you've
got to have a separate line. For a given configuration you could need up to
12 lines for each displacement (3 streamlining options * 4 armor options).
Then add in the fact that all the stats vary depending on TL -- for each TL,
you need a column for mass, volume, and price. Ignoring the high (TL 16+)
band, that's 4 brackets times three columns each -- 12 columns in addition
to the column listing displacement, armor, streamlining, volume, and area.
This is something that has to fit into 15-20 pages.

        I compared four different methods of presenting hull tables; all are
posted on the Web site. The most flexible one, which allows variable armor
and streamlining, only requires a single calculation more than High Guard.
Unless somebody really opens my eyes, I think that's the way to go.

        A later supplement, or perhaps a Web supplement, could present some
predesigned hulls for use with Light. There's absolutely no reason there
couldn't be a mess of additional stuff ready by GenCon ... how many people
out there have FF&S?
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 01:52:29 -0600
Subject: Re: Starship and Vehicle Design Issue/Problem

At 08:16 pm 6/3/96 -0500, sam thomas <sinbad@qrc.com> wrote:
>"David J. Golden" <goldendj@qrc.com>
>>system. Don agrees, and he says the coordination will happen. Worst comes to
>>worst, the predesigned weapons in FF&S Light can be redesigned in less than
>>a day, and replaced BEFORE it gets printed.
>>
>
>>From your above statement it would appear that until very recently there has
>been no coordination. 
>As for redesign try this
>Lasers
>(delivered energy in joules X .735/Beam Diameter in mm)^.5=A Guns Guns Guns
>Damage Value
>
>2.5(sqrt(DE(1/r^2)\) to arrive at FF&S Damage value.
>
>I for one would not care to convert one design to another even with
>extensive spreadsheet experience much less in less than a day.

        Unfortunately, there's not much that I can do about it. All I'm
going to do is plug the standard FF&S weapons into the tables, and assume
that if they've changed somebody at Imperium Games has the new stats. If
nobody does, then obviously they can't have been changed.

>>        Sorry, I thought I'd explained my thinking. The "Crew Factor" listed
>>in my tables is the FF&S crew the system needs. FF&S, being written for TNE
>>with Virus, assumes automation is very low and unintelligent. A simple
>>fractional multiplier would then be used to reduce that crew factor down for
>>more automated ships. This tweak doesn't invalidate FF&S, it just expands
>on it.
>
>Give your system a benchmark then
>a 100 ton needle/AF with 2 jump and 2G manueover and a crew of one!!

        Funny thing ... that was exactly the goal I had in mind! I just
didn't write it down.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 01:57:27 -0600
Subject: Re: 2 m squares

At 11:58 pm 6/3/96 -0700, sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin) wrote:
>Did I read correctly that Imperium Games is contemplating 2 m squares in
>deck plans?  Does this have some purpose besides making all existing deck
>plans obsolete, so that we'll all have to buy new ones?

        Not all existing deck plans ... TNE was actually where the change
was made.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 96 10:34:15 PST
Subject: fusion plus

Ok, here are some thoughts on possibilities:

Traveller fusion plants seem to use some sort of magnetic confinement
(as opposed to inertial confinement). And as researchers have learned
the hard way, there are *definite* scaling problems with the magnetic
fields. For a given type of magnetic field setup there is actually a
minimum size at which you can make a reactor work! If you try building
one smaller than that, you get losses of plasma that prevent operation,
long before you get to the fusion temperature and pressure ranges. 

So you add subsidiary magnetic fields, to help "stabilize" the plasma.
But the new configuration has its own scaling problems. 

So all that is really needed is for the Vilani to have made a
breakthrough in finding a new field configuration that has acceptable
leakage rates and acceptable stability at less than 100 ton sizes.

For what it is worth, reseaerchers did some calcs *years* back on the
minimum size required for a workable "magnetic mirror" (ie long
cylindrical magnetic field, like you'd get from a *huge* solenoid type
coil) and simple torus (field bent into a "donut" shape). As I recall a
magnetic mirror reactor would work just fine if you were willing to
make it 10 *miles* long. And a toroidal reactor would work fine at 8
miles in diameter. (If we wanted to get *really* "gearhead" we could
allow for scaling bonuses at such sizes :-)

Another possibility is muon-catalyzed fusion. If you inject megative
muons (mu mesons) into the plasma, they replace electrons, and allow
the protons to get *much* closer. This gives you fusion at *much* lower
temps and pressure. The problem is generating the muons. By any chance
woul TL-12 be the level at which the meson gun first shows up? If so,
that would tie in nicely. The same breaktrough that allows the meson
gun would also allow the smaller reactors. Even if meson guns show up
at TL-11, it'd still work, you just say that it took another TL worth
of developement to make it suitable for use in a reactor instead of a
weapon.

Either of the above (revolutionary new field config, or muon catalyzed
fusion) should do as "fusion plus".

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest            Tuesday, 4 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 055

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: Starship design...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 06:35:29 -0500
Subject: RE: Starship design...

> One thing that confuses me about this debate on starship design... if 
> the people who think that the information presented in the FF&S book 
> is far too detailed then why bother using it at all.  The designs in 
> the back of the TNE book are good enough so that you can look at a 
> 400-ton lab ship (or whatever) and say something like... okay, it has 
> a crew of - say - 18, such-and-such weapons/staterooms/sensors, etc., 
> etc.  Those who want the detail plug it into FF&S when they have the 
> time.
> 
> Cheers
>           --MARK
Hrm.
as I've stated before, I've ref'd this game since '79, love the FF&S
rules, but they are to time consuming. A quicker alternative design
process is req'd.

- --
                   The Druid
    http://www.datatek.com/dataforge
              druid@datatek.com
                   rtrav@msn.com


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Wednesday, 5 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 056

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #54
         2. How much dust
         3. Re: How much dust
         4. Re: FF&S Light Challenge
         5. Re: FF&S Light Challenge
         6. Re: A suggestion
         7. Re: FF&S Suggestions - pseudo-science
         8. Re: Starship Design Et al
         9. Design Survey Results
        10. Re: QSDS and Combat Implications (long)
        11. Re: QSDS and Combat Implications (long)
        12. Andy's M-Drive Explanation.
        13. Suggestions for FFS Light.
        14. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #53
        15. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #54
        16. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #54
        17. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #53

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Mike" <M.J.Harker@newcastle.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:17:53 GMT0BST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #54

test

------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:09:06 -0300
Subject: How much dust

Merrick Burkhardt wrote

>At 1000km/s a 1gram rock will deliver 500MJ to the target.  A 0.1g grain
>would contribute 50MJ.
>

Merrick, do you know, or can you recommend a source, for whatever the
current thinking is on IMP densities and size distributions?  
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca


------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 08:31:54 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: How much dust

 
> Merrick Burkhardt wrote
> 
> >At 1000km/s a 1gram rock will deliver 500MJ to the target.  A 0.1g grain
> >would contribute 50MJ.
> >
> 
> Merrick, do you know, or can you recommend a source, for whatever the
> current thinking is on IMP densities and size distributions?  

I'm looking, but can't find anything... May I'll ask somebody at
Space'96 today (civil engineering in space conference in town).

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 07:42:04 -0800
Subject: Re: FF&S Light Challenge

On  3 Jun 96 at 15:01, Joe Walsh spewed:

> On Mon, 3 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:
> 
> 
> Er..um...so, are you saying the system proposed by David Golden is too 
> abstract, or are you echoing my agreement that David has a good system?  
> Your post seems to have a tone of disagreement, but I thought you were in 
> support of David's system...
> 

No.  I guess I misinterpreted what you wrote.  I have no opposition 
to what David is working on, other than my predisposition against 
FF&S, which I'm going to have to get over.

Actually, what David proposes is just about what I was hoping for, 
overall.  It sounds like we're in agreement here.  I guess yesterday, 
I might not have been so sure.  

Then again, I read a 100+ mail messages from the group, so I'm not 
real sure of anything... ;-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 10:28:00 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: FF&S Light Challenge

On Tue, 4 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> No.  I guess I misinterpreted what you wrote.  I have no opposition 
> to what David is working on, other than my predisposition against 
> FF&S, which I'm going to have to get over.

I am mostly over my predisposition against it. :)  I wish IG had time to 
let the gearheads and others fix the problems with FF&S, though.  That's 
my only remaining reservation...and it won't prevent me from buying the 
new FF&S whenever it comes out.


> Actually, what David proposes is just about what I was hoping for, 
> overall.  It sounds like we're in agreement here.  I guess yesterday, 
> I might not have been so sure.  
> 
> Then again, I read a 100+ mail messages from the group, so I'm not 
> real sure of anything... ;-)

Ugh.  Same here.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 12:14:57 PDT
Subject: Re: A suggestion

Dave Golden writes [snipped]
>        Some things definitely need tweaking, such as crew. I'm
inclined to use the FF&S crews as "low-automation" and come up with a
simple multiplierfor automation effects. But at the same time, we need
to do this fast, and with as little change to FF&S as possible.>

There is already a computer modifier for the amount of crew. Why not
decrease the values (Control Modifier). Or include another modifier
strictly for technology level. Higher technologies will have automation
as a matter of course. This organic capability will not necessarily be
dependent on the installed *central* computer.

- --norm fenlason
kennesaw ga usa



------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 12:25:23 PDT
Subject: Re: FF&S Suggestions - pseudo-science

Dave Golden responds [snipped]
"POWER PLANTS

>>Put scale efficiencies back into FF&S. Set the breakpoints so that
>>they don't affect the basic game.  Consider capping sizes (after all,
>>a 200 MW air-cooled IC engine is silly: there are better technologies
>>in that power range).
>
>       The one subject where FF&S is open for changes! By now you've
>read Don's message about the nature of fusion plants at TL11 ... too
>big for ships much smaller than 100tons. We've got to come up with
>some rationale, handwaving or not, for this, so we don't get stuck
>with an arbitrary "before TL12 thou shalt not have fusion in small
>craft." Anybody got any ideas about a physics breakthrough in fusion
>technology that won't necessarily increase the power density, but will
>allow smaller minimum sizes?

Here's a crack at pseudo-science:

How about quantitized micro-scale black holes replacing the standard
high-enegry laser containment fields. The micro-scale black holes offer
denser containment properties (and require less shielding) but because
of Quantum effects produce nearly the same output. ie. equivalent
output for less volume.

Pseudo enough for you?

- --norm fenlason
kennesaw ga usa 


------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 12:37:27 PDT
Subject: Re: Starship Design Et al

Sinbad Sam writes [severly snipped]
>Starship creation system. If that means that it will not be ready by
>this friday so be it.
>        FF&S Problems/Issues IMHO
>        A. Homopolar Generators(Not in my starships!)
>        B. Beam Pointers(Why, what is there use(s))
>        C. Violation of the Laws Of Thermodynamics(ie liquid gases for

Two comments from above. Guess I'm a tech-head, but...

Just because the sensors can locate a target does not mean that the
weapon is pointed at the target. beam pointers correlate the target's
sensor-derived position with the position that the beam is pointing at.
Your radar can find the guy, but the laser may not be pointing at the
same position. I feel that you should not have a beam pointer
requirement if the weapon is integrated with a Master Fire Director.
The MFD integrates sensors and control to perform the beam pointing
task. A beam pointer is required for non-integrated systems. (such as
those manned by a PC in the turret)

Second, the early Apollo missions used liquid hydrogen as the
combustion chamber coolant. That is at tech level 5,6,7? With heat
exchange technology improvements of advanced tech levels, keeping the
coolant a liquid should be easy enough.

more pseudo science.

- --norm fenlason
kennesaw ga usa


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 11:19:09 -0800
Subject: Design Survey Results

Hello all,

The Design Survey poll is over.  I am tabulating results and hope to 
have results and some analysis to you by tomorrow or Thursday at the 
latest.  Thank you all for your responses.

:-)

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 96 14:12:05 -0600
Subject: Re: QSDS and Combat Implications (long)

On 06/04/96 at 12:44 PM,  Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com> said:

>I've been thinking about the whole QSDS (Quick Ship Design System -
>aka FF&S Lite) concept.  The more I think about it, the more I think
>it would be a good idea to Simplify, Simplify, Simplify.  IMHO, the
>"Method A" for hulls is too complex, as are the tables I posted for
>drives last night.

You are absolutely right!  I've been proposing a 4 level approach
(Pre-gened, Simple, Medium, Complex) the whole time.  The 3 level
(Pre-gen, Simple, Complex) approach creates a tug-of-war between easy
of use and functionality than WE CAN'T WIN.

Basic Rules:  A few Pre-gened ships and a VERY simple design
              system for only a few small ship types with very
              simple plug together modules.  (Keep it down to 3
              pages max for the design sequence AND THE TABLES,
              and one page for 2 examples...maybe Don could
              squeeze that in!)

STARSHIPS:  Lots of Pre-gened ships and a Moderate design system
            (like QSDS or FFSL) with mostly plug in parts, but
            more functions, more sizes and types.  Here's where
            most military oriented stuff comes in!

FF&S redux:  A complete design system for everything from soup to
             nuts.

>IMHO, what this means is that we need a system that someone can use
>with pencil and paper to design a ship (completely) in under fifteen
>minutes. And produce a sucessful design the first time.

That's my Level 2!

>The Book 2 system was astoundingly simple, and (it seems to me) that
>the system we're considering for QSDS is going to wind up slightly
>more complex than High Guard. 

Then Level 3 could be a *little* more complex than HG.

>Therefore, my suggestions are as follows:

>1) Provide "pick-from-the-list" type tables for all of the compoents. 

Yes!

>2) Round to the nearest unit.  I think the design form should have
>   Standard Displacemnt Tons (StdTons), Power (Mw), Cost (MCr), Crew,
>   Fuel (StdTons), and Area (square meters).

Yes!

>3) "Fold" as many subsystems as possible into the tables; therefore
>   the hull should include airlocks, life support and artificial gravity. 
>   Maneuver drives should include contra-grav.  

Yes!

>Comments?

Yes!!!

Simplify until it's way too simple for you!  Then it's still to
complex for the beginner, so simply some more!

..and David, please try to convince Don to put the simplest sequence
in the Basic Rules.  There are going to be lots of complaints it the
rules don't have any ship building rules at all.  I remember thinking,
"what a rip!", when I went through TNE and found no ship design rules
at all.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 14:51:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: QSDS and Combat Implications (long)

On Tue, 4 Jun 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Basic Rules:  A few Pre-gened ships and a VERY simple design
>               system for only a few small ship types with very
>               simple plug together modules.  (Keep it down to 3
>               pages max for the design sequence AND THE TABLES,
>               and one page for 2 examples...maybe Don could
>               squeeze that in!)

Although I'm not convinced that David's system will be too complex (heck, 
how I can I be...there isn't enough on the web site yet), I would love 
for the basic rules to have a ship design system.  The basic rules should 
be everything that is needed to play Traveller in every sense of the 
word.  I would no more advocate leaving ship design out and having only a 
dozen or so predesigned ships than I would advocate leaving world 
generation out and putting in a few dozen pregenerated worlds.  

If this means whittling the system down to what you describe, then so be 
it!  I still think David's system will have broad appeal and will 
probably be purchased by 75% of Traveller referees.  But if it is too big 
or complex for the basic rules, then put something small and easy enough 
in there!  Please!

Oh!  Just thought of something: the suggested marketing ploy of adding a 
mini version of Traveller to the back of books would require such a 
small-scale system as you are advocating.  I really think 
back-of-the-book Traveller is a great idea (read: marketing ploy), and 
this would increase the chances of that actually happening (unless, of 
course, Marc and/or IG is completely opposed to it ;).

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 20:03:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Andy's M-Drive Explanation.

Good handwaving Andy!  Let me see if I've got it basically:  The m-drive 
opens up a hole into jump space and the thrust is output there?  The 
reaction mass travels at some huge velocity in jump space and thus very 
little of it is needed to get huge amounts of thrust.  Some 
version/part of the reaction mass comes back as energy (some of it 
being short wavelength light or something that breaks down into SWL, to 
give that beautiful blue glow).  Works for me, though it of course 
violates lots of laws :-).

Another possibility would be to have m-drives be "warp drives".  They
expand the space behind the ship while contracting it in front of the
ship, and the ship "surfs" the wave of expanding space.  There is a more
official name for this type of drive, but I can't remember it.  I do
remember that it has been mentioned as one of the few ideas for FTL 
travel that sorta fits with modern physics.  However, there's no reason 
(I think) that this sort of idea couldn't be used for slower than light.  
You can just put some sort of arbitrary limit on it (this is 
pseudo-science after all) and say that it can provide no more than 6g 
acceleration, but that it does so with high efficiency.  Since the ship 
is not actually accelerated through space, there is no violation of laws 
of conservation.

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 1996 20:37:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Suggestions for FFS Light.

Hi David.  I admire your dedication to this project.  Keep it up!  I 
would like to make a few (hopefully helpful) suggestions:

	The first is a reminder to keep things simple.  I like what your
doing so far, but you should be wary of the temptation to complicate
things.  Remember that something you design always seems really simple to
you, but may not be to others.  Some possibilities you might want to
consider (not being an FFS aficionado, I'm not sure if these are feasible,
but here goes...): 

SIMPLIFYING SUGGESTIONS

1) Regarding the problem of hull armor and bracing for thrust.  Could you 
not simply declare a certain minimum armor value for a certain thrust 
value?  Or are bracing and armor seperate?

2) Why can't jump fuel just be 10% of the ship's volume per parsec?

3) When assigning crew, why not include their quarters with the 
components as you buy them?  For instance, if you just installed 200 tons 
of drives, why not have a "mini step" afterwards in which you put in 
staterooms for the 2 engineers that will be required (or 1 room if ship 
is military).


FUSION PLUS SUGGESTION

	I'm no phsicist, but aren't there a number of different fusion
reaction types (e.g. deuterium-deuterium, dueterium-tritium), and don't
these have different efficiencies?  Perhaps the d-d reaction is too
inefficient and plants below a certain size don't provide appreciable
amounts of energy.  But when one masters d-t reactions, one can get good
energy out of even a small plant.  The above is sort of sketchy, but maybe
someone with more a physics background can fill it in. 


MANEUVER DRIVE LIMITS

	On your web page you expressed a problem with the 6 g limit,
saying that it seems quite arbitrary.  Also, people have frequently
complained about the huge upper limit of velocity for ships with thruster
plates.  I have a suggestion that might solve both problems.  I was
thinking that t-plates might be thought of as slower-than-light "warp
drives" (there's a more official name, but I can't think of it right now). 
These drives expand space behind a ship and contract it in front, allowing
the ship to "surf" the wave of expanding space behind it. 

	This drive concept has been put forth in various fairly reputable
places as one of the few ideas for FTL travel that doesn't violate modern
physics (more or less), but I don't see why it could not be used as the
basis of a maneuver drive.  One simply has to put arbitrary limits on it. 
Normally, I don't like arbitrary limits, but since this is
quasi-scientific anyway, it should be a little easier to take.  The
handwaving explanation could be something like "the fabric of space/time
will not tolerate expansion /contraction rates above a certain limit, and
thus 6 g is all the thrust one can get out of such a drive".  This also
allows one to put an uppper limit on the speed of the ship with "the
expansion/contraction limits also place a maximum of .1 C on the speed of
a ship using such a drive"  or something like that. 

Hope this helps,
Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: jmg141@psu.edu (John M Gardner)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 20:34:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #53

> I"ve come the the
>conclusion that generally speaking gunshots are only slightly more deadly
>than they are portrayed in TNE and not nearly as effective as the average
>person tends to beleive.  Short of being peppered with ammunition, ie.
>shotgun or fully automatic gunfire, nine time out of ten its a lucky bullet
>that kills an individual.

>Case in point.  THe FBI had a fugitive trapped in a small area, the fugitive
>started firing at the FBI, who in return fired back.  THis went on for
>several minutes before the individual got into a car and sped off.  Ten
>blocks later the suspect dropped dead.  He'd been shot over thirty five
>times causing apparently minor damage, the thirty-sixth shot had penetrated
>the individuals heart causing him to die.  This fellow was shot with .38's,
>.45's, 9mm's and shotguns.

Ok, perhaps I should rephrase my statement.  I have been on both ends of the
gun in combat (Saudi to be precise), and yes you do have a point.  HOWEVER,
I would like to point out that the weapons used in your example were PISTOLS
and generaly on the low end of the firepower spectrum.  When dealing with
pistol and smg ammo, (very low kinetic energy, and a typicaly fat stubby
round), VRI (very rapid incapacitation) is typicaly impossible.  My
experience relates more to rifles and machineguns and tanks etc.  I did
witness a "friendly-fire" incident where one of our newbie loaders (we were
tank crews) accidentily shot his buddie in the belly at 2-3 meters with a
.45.  Both of them lived, but the offending private was pretty pale for a
while ;>)  In actuality, the sergeant (who should have had the common sence
to have the private CLEAR the weapon BEFORE training the private) was quite
lucky.  The round passed all the way through without destroying too much.  I
guess it just goes to show you that you can't bee too careful.

Seriously though, if you examine the rules (and ignore double damage to the
head) it is possible to be shot in the face with a hunting rifle and live
with only a scratch wound!  (yes, I've also read the reports of people being
shot in the face and living to tell about it, but I've not seen it happen
very often in my thankfuly small experience on the battlefield.  Usually the
poor sap just dies on the spot.)

The other point, is that I would like my players to consider their options
before shooting up the place.  Combat with serious implications helps the
case a bit IMHO.

It is an interesting point though . . . perhaps I should consider using a
D-10 for pistol damage. :>)

- ---John
*     "a chicken is just an egg's way of making new eggs."
                          --- unknown

*      "any society which is willing to surrender essential liberties to
gain security shall likely have neither"
                        --- Benjamin Franklin


------------------------------

From: jmg141@psu.edu (John M Gardner)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 20:57:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #54

>I'd be willing to allow them to work at higher DEs, but have them drop
>off so fast after TL*50 that they are useless for ship mounted (even
>Mton ships) weapons.

Ok, here's my two cents worth:

I use the 50MJ/TL limit myself, but the recent unrest has given me an idea.
Allow lasers to be as powerful as spinal mounts IF AND ONLY IF they OCCUPY
AS MUCH SPACE.  This could be done by imposing a variable power limit, as
follows:

base power output:                      25MJ per TL
double focal array size:                50MJ per TL
quad focal array size:                   75MJ per TL

or something similar.  This allows you to have your heavy hitting lasers,
but only if they get really big in the process.  (e.g. the death star and
its planet smashing beam of whatever-it-was-that-it-fired.)  Now this is
just an off the cuff suggestion, please feel free to crush it into something
more usefull.

- --John
*     "a chicken is just an egg's way of making new eggs."
                          --- unknown

*      "any society which is willing to surrender essential liberties to
gain security shall likely have neither"
                        --- Benjamin Franklin


------------------------------

From: jmg141@psu.edu (John M Gardner)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 21:15:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #54

>Traveller fusion plants seem to use some sort of magnetic confinement
>(as opposed to inertial confinement). And as researchers have learned
>the hard way, there are *definite* scaling problems with the magnetic
>fields. For a given type of magnetic field setup there is actually a
>minimum size at which you can make a reactor work! If you try building
>one smaller than that, you get losses of plasma that prevent operation,
>long before you get to the fusion temperature and pressure ranges. 

Just another of my off the wall suggestions, but perhaps the gravitics
technology availability could be moved to TL 12.  I realize that this is NOT
cannon, but think about this for a second:

1.      at TL-12, you can all of the sudden use gravitic confinement for
your fusion reaction, augmented with magnetic fields to stabilize the flow
(or something similar).  something similar to FF&S gravitic compression
fusion cartridge.  (stars use inertial/gravity confined fusion, and they
work just fine)

2.      at TL-12 there is a shift from HEPlaR to Thrusters.  (don't shoot me
yet, its just a suggestion)  This gives the fledgling imperium a REAL combat
advantage over all of those  old HEPlaR driven ships with their nasty fuel
requirements, and reinforces the mad rush to sign on with the imperium.
This works only if the thruster plates are a gravitic technology.  

3.      at TL-12 artificial gravity becomes feasable aboard ship.  (those
imperials are looking like a better option all the time Ethel...)

- ---John
*     "a chicken is just an egg's way of making new eggs."
                          --- unknown

*      "any society which is willing to surrender essential liberties to
gain security shall likely have neither"
                        --- Benjamin Franklin


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 23:26:31 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #53

>Ok, perhaps I should rephrase my statement.  I have been on both ends of the
>gun in combat (Saudi to be precise), and yes you do have a point.  HOWEVER,
>I would like to point out that the weapons used in your example were PISTOLS
>and generaly on the low end of the firepower spectrum.  When dealing with
>pistol and smg ammo, (very low kinetic energy, and a typicaly fat stubby
>round), VRI (very rapid incapacitation) is typicaly impossible.  My
>experience relates more to rifles and machineguns and tanks etc.  I did
>witness a "friendly-fire" incident where one of our newbie loaders (we were
>tank crews) accidentily shot his buddie in the belly at 2-3 meters with a
>.45.  Both of them lived, but the offending private was pretty pale for a
>while ;>)  In actuality, the sergeant (who should have had the common sence
>to have the private CLEAR the weapon BEFORE training the private) was quite
>lucky.  The round passed all the way through without destroying too much.  I
>guess it just goes to show you that you can't bee too careful.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Never ever go to war with a new
guy, they're just plain ass stupid.

>Seriously though, if you examine the rules (and ignore double damage to the
>head) it is possible to be shot in the face with a hunting rifle and live
>with only a scratch wound!  (yes, I've also read the reports of people being
>shot in the face and living to tell about it, but I've not seen it happen
>very often in my thankfuly small experience on the battlefield.  Usually the
>poor sap just dies on the spot.)

Absolutly.  Head shots possess the greatest lethality of any and in that
case the double damage rule should always be applied.  While it is not
impossible to walk away from a rifle shot to the brain bucket it is also not
terrible likely.

>The other point, is that I would like my players to consider their options
>before shooting up the place.  Combat with serious implications helps the
>case a bit IMHO.

Again I agree totally with you here.  Players, and I'll admit when I'm a
player I do this on occasion, tend to approach problems with two solutions.
1) The ubiquitious "big hammer approach" and 2) the often encountered bigger
hammer approach.  Hey after two failed attempts at lock picking or
negotiating when your GM just doesn't want to conceed a point we all feel
like saying.  "Screw it break out the grenade launchers and lets party!"
The thing is as the hero's of the game we're not supposed to do that.  And I
think that's really the point we're debaiting here.  HERO's  As hero's they
have more hit points and can take more damage than the baddies because
they're supposed to survive.

Derek Stanley

Chillin on the left coast


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #56
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Traveller-digest           Wednesday, 5 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 057

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: New or Old Starship Designs
         2. Re: How much dust
         3. Re: Design Survey Results
         4. Re: FF&S Suggestions - pseudo-science
         5. Re: Suggestions for FFS Light.
         6. Re: A suggestion
         7. Interstellar medium
         8. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #54
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #53

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 01:23:55 -0700
Subject: Re: New or Old Starship Designs

From:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM" 29-MAY-1996 18:53:53.28
To:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"
CC:	IN%"dperrin@mag7.com"
Subj:	RE: New or Old Starship Designs

Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 19:40:38 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Re: New or Old Starship Designs

At 05:52 pm 5/29/96 -0600, dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin) wrote:
>Fellow Traveller starship fans;
>
>I am creating the first of the expansions for the new Marc Miller's
>Traveller series, appropriately named Starships. I am interested in any aid
>that you can give me. I am using the starship building rules from the
>original Classic Traveller book for small ships, and the High Guard system
>for larger ships. There have been some minor modifications, but the only

        This really depressed me ... is anybody at Imperium Games actually
listening to what people say they want? Quoting from the Whither Traveller
Survey results:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is the best news I've heard in quite some time. Traveller, just like
wargames, went down-hill as complexity increased, no matter what this sur-
vey says.
=======================

I'm going to continue to follow this list, and support Traveller via my Web
Page, but right now I'm not even going to think about wasting my money on a
retrograde rule set. If I wanted to play CT or HG, I could already. But I
don't and I haven't for years.

Just my opinion. Considered comments to the list or to me, flames to
gatekeeper@hell.org.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Well I never wanted TNE, which means that I didn't waste my money there,
& I am very happy to see the return of what worked the best for Trav.

Now, I'm putting my money where my mouth is. I've already put in advance
orders for everything that IG has on their WWW order form.

If MM approves it then that's all I need to know.

just my opinion too,

Phil 

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:46:53 -0600
Subject: Re: How much dust

> Merrick Burkhardt wrote
>> Merrick, do you know, or can you recommend a source, for whatever the
>> current thinking is on IMP densities and size distributions?  
>
>I'm looking, but can't find anything... May I'll ask somebody at
>Space'96 today (civil engineering in space conference in town).

        TRW publishes a paperback titled something like "Space Data
Handbook" that's pretty useful ... I wish I remembered where I put my copy.
They give it away free to people in the industry, which is how I got mine.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:47:07 -0600
Subject: Re: Design Survey Results

At 11:19 am 6/4/96 -0800, you wrote:
>Hello all,
>
>The Design Survey poll is over.  I am tabulating results and hope to 
>have results and some analysis to you by tomorrow or Thursday at the 
>latest.  Thank you all for your responses.

        As long as I get it by Friday, so I know what we've done wrong <G>!
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:47:00 -0600
Subject: Re: FF&S Suggestions - pseudo-science

At 12:25 pm 6/4/96 PDT, you wrote:
>Dave Golden responds [snipped]
>"POWER PLANTS
>
>>>Put scale efficiencies back into FF&S. Set the breakpoints so that
>>>they don't affect the basic game.  Consider capping sizes (after all,
>>>a 200 MW air-cooled IC engine is silly: there are better technologies
>>>in that power range).
>>
>>       The one subject where FF&S is open for changes! By now you've
>>read Don's message about the nature of fusion plants at TL11 ... too
>>big for ships much smaller than 100tons. We've got to come up with
>>some rationale, handwaving or not, for this, so we don't get stuck
>>with an arbitrary "before TL12 thou shalt not have fusion in small
>>craft." Anybody got any ideas about a physics breakthrough in fusion
>>technology that won't necessarily increase the power density, but will
>>allow smaller minimum sizes?
>
>Here's a crack at pseudo-science:
>
>How about quantitized micro-scale black holes replacing the standard
>high-enegry laser containment fields. The micro-scale black holes offer
>denser containment properties (and require less shielding) but because
>of Quantum effects produce nearly the same output. ie. equivalent
>output for less volume.
>
>Pseudo enough for you?

        Uhh ... how does having a black hole help with containment?

PS: I'm echoing your message & my reply to the GDW Beta list, because that's
where the discussion's mostly moved.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:47:38 -0600
Subject: Re: Suggestions for FFS Light.

At 08:37 pm 6/4/96 -0400, Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> wrote:
>SIMPLIFYING SUGGESTIONS
>
>1) Regarding the problem of hull armor and bracing for thrust.  Could you 
>not simply declare a certain minimum armor value for a certain thrust 
>value?  Or are bracing and armor seperate?

        They're separate ...

>2) Why can't jump fuel just be 10% of the ship's volume per parsec?

        Originally (in FF&S), because the new maneuver drives required much
more fuel, so the jump drive fuel was scaled way down. Since thruster plates
are back, the jump fuel probably will go back up.

>3) When assigning crew, why not include their quarters with the 
>components as you buy them?  For instance, if you just installed 200 tons 
>of drives, why not have a "mini step" afterwards in which you put in 
>staterooms for the 2 engineers that will be required (or 1 room if ship 
>is military).

        I still think even basic designers will want some flexibility in
deciding how the accommodations should be arranged -- who gets single
stateroom, who gets double. Plus, the crew listed in the tables is the
*base* non-automated crew. Depending on TL the crew requirements go way
down, and it's easiest if you collect them all and do it all at once.

        Thanks for the inputs!
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 04:46:57 -0600
Subject: Re: A suggestion

At 12:14 pm 6/4/96 PDT, you wrote:
>Dave Golden writes [snipped]
>>        Some things definitely need tweaking, such as crew. I'm
>inclined to use the FF&S crews as "low-automation" and come up with a
>simple multiplierfor automation effects. But at the same time, we need
>to do this fast, and with as little change to FF&S as possible.>
>
>There is already a computer modifier for the amount of crew. Why not
>decrease the values (Control Modifier). Or include another modifier
>strictly for technology level. Higher technologies will have automation
>as a matter of course. This organic capability will not necessarily be
>dependent on the installed *central* computer.

        After talking with Don, we're going to go with a simple TL-based
modifier. At TL10, automation really hasn't taken off yet, so this is the
basis. By TL15, crews are down to 25% of the basic size -- (do the math) ...
hmmm .... looks like I did the math wrong while I was talking to Don,
because we agreed the crews should be 25% at TL15, and that the rate would
be 10% per TL.

        Are you *sure* I should be coordinating this thing?

        Anyway, that's what we're looking at. At TL10 (or postVirus), crews
are their full FF&S size, and go down with TL. Simple extension to the FF&S
rules which doesn't impact anything else (except accommodations. OK, and
workstations. Accommodations and workstations. That's all. Nothing else. And
power. Accommodations, power and workstations ...)
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 96 17:28:44 PST
Subject: Interstellar medium

Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu> writes:

>> A navigational repulsor would be standard on ships at TLs to support it.
>> Without one, you'd have limited velocities relative to the
>> InterPlanetary Medium (IPM) unless you wanted to trash your ship... has
>> interesting implications.
>
>Interplanetary Medium?  Say what?
>
>The only 'medium' between planets is stark, empty space, which is 
>notoriously difficult for anything, radial tires and repulsors included, 
>to get a grip on.

Excuse me, but space is *not* empty, except by comparison to planetary
atmospheres. At sufficiently high speeds, the fairly good vacuum
between planets in a system like ours *is* hazardous to your ship (and
your health). For instance, as you start getting near 1% or so of C,
every single atom out there is effectively a cosmic ray, with all the
attached hazards.

The larger particles are rarer, but do note that we are *already*
having problems with "space junk" in Earth orbit. And that's at normal
orbital velocities and rather modest accelerations. With ships that can
boost a several gees for *hours*, you hit velocities where a paint chip
like the one that put that quarter inch crater in one of the Space
Shuttle's windows can get *really* dangerous.

A rule of thumb from the sci.space FAQ: At 3 km/sec the kinetic energy
of a body is equivalent to the same mass in TNT!  And since the energy
goes up as the *square* of the velocity, you get this:

velocity	TNT equivalent (mass of TNT/mass of object)
- ---------	-------------------------------------------
3 km/s		1
6 km/s		4
9 km/s		9
12 km/s		16
15 km/s		25
18 km/s		36

You get the idea. Note that a typical velocity for stuff orbiting at
300 km is almost 8 km/sec. Escape velocity at that altitude is near 11
km/sec. 

Orbital velocity for the Earth is about 30 km/sec. And system escape
velocity is around 42 km/sec. So any space junk in orbit around the
*sun* will have anywhere from 0 to 72 km/sec relative to a ship in the
same orbit. At 72 km/sec an object has the energy of 576 times its mass
in TNT! That means a one kilo object is equivalent to more than half a
*ton* of TNT. At a "median" 30 km/sec, a 10 gram object is equivalent
to a kilo of TNT. There's gonna be a *lot* of 10 gram junk out there.

>and there is no such thing as some convenient 
>'interstellar medium' that permeates outer space

Better talk to some astronomers. They *study* the interstellar medium.
It may be thin, but it is there.

I do agree about about it not being terribly suitable for something to
push against. But that's not what the section you quoted says. It's
referring to *protecting* ships from the stuff that's out there. And
any ship that can reach CT/MT velocities has a *lot* to worry about. 

For example, if I recall correctly, a Scout from Book 2 can accelerate
at 2gs. And they note somewhere that if you need to worry about
extended use of the drive, assume one *month* of fuel. So, that means
you can accelerate for two weeks at 2gs, then decelerate at the same
rate for another 2.

At that sort of speed, you can pretty much ignore things like stellar
gravity... :-)

So, 2 weeks is 1209600 seconds. At 2 gees, that gives a velocity at
turnover of 24 thousand km/s (8% of c!). And a one gram micro-meteor is
equivalent to 64 tonnes of TNT.

At turnover, the ship will have travelled 14 billion km (about 96 AU!).

BTW, I'm one of the folks who just *assumed* that the manuever drives
in CT were some sort of *highly* efficient reaction drive. Say
something with an ISP of 500k to 1M.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 96 19:13:01 PST
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #54

ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch) writes:

> One more point...Velocity limits!
> 
> I ran into the planet killer shuttle early on, and have squashed
> that..effect.  Here's my solution, see how it strikes you...
> 
> Acceleration by ships is at several hundred g, but maximum velocity is
> limited to between 10 and 20 million kph, depending on a number of
> factors:  TL, engineering skill, Mdrive quality. I do this by giving
> the "hyperspace" field area (now fjs) an inherent drag,  (In fact,
> this drag effect is how I explain the time in jump space too, so fjs
> fits even better!) that limits speeds.  Maintaining speed requires
> continuing thrust (continuing to use up mass).  If you leave the fjs
> field on (requiring power), but cut thrust you'll decelerate toward
> zero relative over several hours.  If you turn off the fjs field, you
> would maintain the velocity you'd built up...except the way I do it
> <g> the fjs field once created will persist for over an hour after you
> turn it off slowing you down anyway.  Fast deceleration requires
> flipping over and producing counter thrust.


Slight problem here. 10-20 million kph relative to *what*? Relative to
the planet you left, you may be moving that fast. Relative to every
other object in the universe you are moving at a different velocity.
Relative to a ship going the other way, you may be moving at 20-40
million kph. Relative to various distant galaxies, you are moving at
nearly light speed.

This is the whole *point* of relativity. There *isn't* any absolute
frame of reference. So your "inherent drag" is impossible. Because
"drag" means that you are moving relative to FJS. And that means that
you've just created an absolute reference frame, and *worse*, one that
"just happens" to be more or less at rest with respect to this portion
of our galaxy. This has side effects you don't even want to *consider*,
even without dragging relativity into it.

This is also why any sort of reactionless drive is such a problem. You
pump in energy, and you get out momentum. The trouble is, momentum
relative to *what*. Y'see, the change in your velocity is a change in
kinetic energy. But the amount of that change depends on what you
measure your velocity against. With a reaction drive, it isn't a
problem because the exhaust has an equal but oppositte change in both
kinetic energy *and* momentum.

But with reactionless thrusters, you can do things that really screw up
the world, or you have to (once again) come up with an absolute frame
of reference. Not good.

If you want an effect *similar* to a reactionless drive, figure that
your drive is a sort of "graviton laser" or some such, and you use it
to push/pull on the "nearby" bodies. This has limits which make it work
a lot differently than the thruster plates though.

> ------------------------------
 
"Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> writes:

> Actually, this would be the worst thing they could do...at least for 
> the purposes of developing the (OH GOD IT'S THAT WORD AGAIN!) canon.  
> Nobody is going to buy into a universe that has two different (and 
> in some cases diametrically opposed) assumptions on which to base its 
> universe... 

Excuse me. But you are a mite confused. The *rules* don't define a
universe. The *background* does. 

You can look at it one of two ways:

First, the options are for designing different backgrounds in a
consistent way. This allows people freedom to develop a campaign with a
"different" universe, but still be able to let folks know easily what
the differences are. (ie, "we're using fusion drives and stutterwarp,
not thruster plates and jump drive")

This is a lot less disruptive than changing to a campaign that has a
whole new rule set.

Second, it's perfectly possible for there to be multiple ways of
accomplishing the same thing. It's just that the Terrans and Imperium
(and most others) hit on one way, while there are alternate ways that
they may have missed (it does happen, there are a number of things that
the Greeks *could* have built, it just never occured to them).

This allows for some *real* surprises for the players when they are
exploring unexplored star systems. Picture the Imperium running into
the Klingon Empire or the Romulans. Or running into civilizations
using Stutterwap, Alderson drive, Bussard Ramjets, generation ships,
sleeper ships, near C ships, etc. All of these have *both* sides trying
to deal with a technology that they don't understand, and that has
advantages and disadvantages that they are going to find out the hard
way. 

Examples:

Jump drive:
Advantages:
	can't be tracked
	can't be attacked
Disadavantages:
	100 diameter limit
	one week per jump
	small size of jump

Warp drive:
Advantages:
	no 100 diameter limit
        fast!
disadvantages:
  	can be tracked
	can be attacked

Alderson drive:
advantages:
	jump is instantaneous
disadvantages:
	limited routes
	*known* fixed jump points

I could go on, but just the above should give a creative person some
ideas for *nasty* surprises each side could give the other.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 07:26:57 PDT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #53

John Gardner writes:
>> I"ve come the the
>>conclusion that generally speaking gunshots are only slightly more
deadly
>>than they are portrayed in TNE and not nearly as effective as the
average
>>person tends to beleive.  Short of being peppered with ammunition,
ie.
>>shotgun or fully automatic gunfire, nine time out of ten its a lucky
bullet
>>that kills an individual.
>
>>Case in point.  THe FBI had a fugitive trapped in a small area, the
fugitive
>>started firing at the FBI, who in return fired back.  THis went on
for
>>several minutes before the individual got into a car and sped off. 
Ten
>>blocks later the suspect dropped dead.  He'd been shot over thirty
five
>>times causing apparently minor damage, the thirty-sixth shot had
penetrated
>>the individuals heart causing him to die.  This fellow was shot with
.38's,
>>.45's, 9mm's and shotguns.
>
>Ok, perhaps I should rephrase my statement.  I have been on both ends
of the
>gun in combat (Saudi to be precise), and yes you do have a point. 
HOWEVER,
>I would like to point out that the weapons used in your example were
PISTOLS
>and generaly on the low end of the firepower spectrum.  When dealing
with
>pistol and smg ammo, (very low kinetic energy, and a typicaly fat
stubby
>round), VRI (very rapid incapacitation) is typicaly impossible.  My
>experience relates more to rifles and machineguns and tanks etc.  I
did

Frank Chadwick wrote an article where he defended the TNE hit and
damage results. The article showed the actual number of hits in a
firefight and the results. I can't remember the exact details, but it
was in a Challenge magazine.

I like the damage rules. If medicine healing and recovery are played
right, just the sort of action that was described will result. For
*impact* damage, ie. the shock of the round hitting the target, I like
the roll versus damage for head and chest shots.

- --norm


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #57
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 6 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 058

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: FF&S Suggestions - pseudo-science
         2. Re: Velocity limits!
         3. RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #54 
         4. Re: FF&S Suggestions - pseudo-science
         5. Re: The Foundations of Traveller
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #54
         7. Heat Death of the Universe
         8. The New Traveller's Dictionary?
         9. "Other Sites" on IG Homepage.
        10. Moving to the GDW-beta list
        11. Who Are the Syleans?
        12. Draft Skill List
        13. Imperial Map
        14. Xboat List vs Traveller List
        15. Re: Xboat List vs Traveller List
        16. Re: Draft Skill List for T4
        17. Re: Imperial Map
        18. RE: A suggestion
        19. Re: Xboat List vs Traveller List
        20. Design Survey Results...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 16:08:27 +0200
Subject: Re: FF&S Suggestions - pseudo-science

>>How about quantitized micro-scale black holes replacing the standard
>>high-enegry laser containment fields. The micro-scale black holes offer
>>denser containment properties (and require less shielding) but because
>>of Quantum effects produce nearly the same output. ie. equivalent
>>output for less volume.

Quantum black holes are out, you'll find them in old SF stories but the
physics behind them was killed by quantum tunneling by Stephen Hawking. The
energy/mass of the blach hole will tunnel out of the hole as Hawking
radiation, the smaller the hole the faster the evaporation.

/Backman



------------------------------

From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman)
Date: Tue, 7 May 1996 16:24:44 +0200
Subject: Re: Velocity limits!

>This is the whole *point* of relativity. There *isn't* any absolute
>frame of reference. So your "inherent drag" is impossible. Because
>"drag" means that you are moving relative to FJS. And that means that
>you've just created an absolute reference frame, and *worse*, one that
>"just happens" to be more or less at rest with respect to this portion
>of our galaxy. This has side effects you don't even want to *consider*,
>even without dragging relativity into it.
 There IS a frame of reference (sort of) in the real world(TM): Solar
systems have stars at their center and the solar wind is moving at
aproximately 5 km/s relative the sun. Ships accelerating for a couple of
days will experience an increased energy from the solar wind particles that
hit. Lideboat doom will need som pretty heavy shielding of drives and
attitude stuff, not to mention sensors to be able to aim at high speed
because of this. In my campaign this solar wind sets a "speed limit" for
intrasystem travel that differs from ship to ship depending on shielding.
SDB can go as fast as they like but they use fusion drives because
thrusterplates show up too much on gravscanners.

/Backman



------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:08:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #54 

In Reply to Your Message of Tue, 04 Jun 1996 20: 57:10 EDT
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 11:08:11 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: >I'd be willing to allow them to work at higher DEs, but have them drop
: >off so fast after TL*50 that they are useless for ship mounted (even
: >Mton ships) weapons.
: 
: Ok, here's my two cents worth:
: 
: I use the 50MJ/TL limit myself, but the recent unrest has given me an idea.
: Allow lasers to be as powerful as spinal mounts IF AND ONLY IF they OCCUPY
: AS MUCH SPACE.  This could be done by imposing a variable power limit, as
: follows:
: 
: base power output:                      25MJ per TL
: double focal array size:                50MJ per TL
: quad focal array size:                   75MJ per TL
: 
: or something similar.  This allows you to have your heavy hitting lasers,
: but only if they get really big in the process.  (e.g. the death star and
: its planet smashing beam of whatever-it-was-that-it-fired.)  Now this is
: just an off the cuff suggestion, please feel free to crush it into something
: more usefull.

Technically this works and keeps them limited.  However, I would
decrease the levels a little more to make them a tad weaker than meson
spinal mounts.  The only reason being that in the Traveller universe
the meson gun should be the final word in Big Guns (tm).

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 11:32:23 PDT
Subject: Re: FF&S Suggestions - pseudo-science

>>>How about quantitized micro-scale black holes replacing the standard
>>>high-enegry laser containment fields. The micro-scale black holes
offer
>>>denser containment properties (and require less shielding) but
because
>>>of Quantum effects produce nearly the same output. ie. equivalent
>>>output for less volume.
>
>Quantum black holes are out, you'll find them in old SF stories but
the
>physics behind them was killed by quantum tunneling by Stephen
Hawking. The
>energy/mass of the blach hole will tunnel out of the hole as Hawking
>radiation, the smaller the hole the faster the evaporation.
>
>/Backman
>
>
Its the tunneling energy that is tapped for the power source.

- --norm fenlason


------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:13:01 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: The Foundations of Traveller

Quoth matth:
> Why have the choices been made for Traveller such that the Traveller empire
> is analogous to one of the pre 18th century empires, rather than a far
> future one ? 

Well, those choices are being made _now_ because they replicate the environment
from when the choices were made _then_ (in 1977) when the game was first created.

Since we have no idea what a "far future" empire would be like, I suspect your 
question is closer to "why is the Traveller empire analogous to one of the pre
18th century empires, rather than a modern state?"

And the answer to that is manifold.  First, the colonialist/swashbuckling 
interstellar empire is a staple of much 1950-70's science fiction, much of
which inspired Traveller in the first place.  Second, an old-style empire
is a different type of society from the modern one, thus providing an interesting 
change-of-pace for roleplayers.  Third, and again, the technological assumptions
(jump drive, no commo without transportation, etc.) have been made in order to
make as few assumptions as possible and to make those that _are_ made as exciting,
roleplay-inducive, and "realistic"-feeling as possible.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 11:16:11 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #54

> : base power output:                      25MJ per TL
> : double focal array size:                50MJ per TL
> : quad focal array size:                   75MJ per TL
> : 
> : or something similar.  This allows you to have your heavy hitting lasers,
> : but only if they get really big in the process.  (e.g. the death star and
> : its planet smashing beam of whatever-it-was-that-it-fired.)  Now this is
> : just an off the cuff suggestion, please feel free to crush it into something
> : more usefull.
> 
> Technically this works and keeps them limited.  However, I would
> decrease the levels a little more to make them a tad weaker than meson
> spinal mounts.  The only reason being that in the Traveller universe
> the meson gun should be the final word in Big Guns (tm).

This doesn't work.  A good sized turret/barbette laser has a focal array
volume of ***~0.05kl***  it'd need to grown very much faster than you
list.  Maybe as array volume ^5 or something.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 5 Jun 96 11:30:12 MS
Subject: Heat Death of the Universe

I picture the Heat Death of the Universe mileu sourcebook as a softcover book 
with a glossy gray cover, and neutral gray pages inside.  The page numbers 
(also in gray) are all zero.  In the back of the book is a pop-out coin to be 
used to decide the "Expanding Universe" vs "Collapsing Universe" argument.

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 96 17:06:00 -0500
Subject: The New Traveller's Dictionary?

  ... also known as "the _other_ Jargon File"...

  ... is being compiled by Yours Truly for inclusion in the RICE
  Archives.

  However, I need the jargon to compile, and not just the stuff
  that I make up out of my own head, or that my former gaming group
  used when we played.  I need yours, too.  And yes, that includes
  you all the way in the back waving your hand at me.  Oh, you want
  to know what I mean by jargon?

  That's easy.  It's the "slang" that's not part of standard
  Galanglic as it appears in your particular incarnation of
  Traveller's reality (IOTR), and that your players' characters are
  likely to encounter in the course of adventures.  Shipboard
  slang, ground slang, military slang, all of that is good and
  useful.

  Examples?  Sure - just a few off the top of my head:  In my IOTR,
  a good ship's cook is called a "gil", a "gilly", or occasionally
  a "shu-li", all deriving from the old Vilani "shugili", the guy
  who knew the techniques for making edible the inedible plant life
  on Vland.  A "cork" is a nuclear damper, when used to disrupt or
  terminate the output of a power plant that relies on nuclear
  reactions for power production (fission or fusion, hot or cold),
  and using "cork" as a verb is what a "cork" used as a noun does.
  The guy in your crew who always seems to have a knack for
  managing protocol is a "newt", because before it became
  politically correct to call 'em "Bwabs" or "Bwaps", that's what
  members of that race were called - and everyone knows that they
  handled protocol like nobody's business.  Stuff like that.

  What I'd like for each entry is the word itself, the part of
  speech, the definition, and the origin, if known.  Set it up like
  it might be in a dictionary.  Don't worry about the same word
  having multiple, even contradictory, definitions, or two
  different words having the same definition - after all, "fat
  chance" and "slim chance" mean the same thing, don't they?

  Example:

  gil (n) [from Old Vilani "shugili", a food preparer/witch
  doctor/shaman]  (1) A cook, usually one who can create high
  quality meals out of poorer-quality materials

  If you don't want to waste space piecemeal here, post to me at
  jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com.  I'll whip it all into shape, and put
  it up in the RICE Archives, and post it here all together.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 þ OLXWin 1.00b þ Faint hearts never win in love nor sell life insurance.

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:35:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: "Other Sites" on IG Homepage.

Why is only Joe Heck's Traveller page on the "other sites" part of IG's 
page?  What about David Golden and Goeran's pages?  Get on it guys!

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>



------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 17:37:18 PDT
Subject: Moving to the GDW-beta list

I sent in a subscribe notice on Tuesday and haveheard nothin back. I am
interested in the MMT/T4 ship design results and would really like to
participate in discussions. 

How can I get en-listed?

- --norm fenlason


------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 16:03:17 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Who Are the Syleans?

I've been thinking about the potential of the Milieu 0 setting of T4, when
I realized...  I don't recall any mention in previous products of just what
the Sylean sub-race of humaniti is like.  We have extensive information on
the Vilani, Zhodani, Solomani, Darrians; snippets or at least a picture for
the Geonee, Suerrat, etc.  But the only thing we know about the Syleans is
that Lucan thought their language was great, and that their world launched
the Third Imperium!

*Is* there actually a Sylean minor human race?  Or is Sylea just a planet
settled with a post-Rule-of-Man Vilani-Solomani mix?  And will T4 or an
early issue of JTAS give us the information we need for this central world
that will one day become Capital?

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:30:32 -0400
Subject: Draft Skill List

Draft List (Subject to Revision).

This list provides the basic character types and the range of skills which
will be available in the character generation process in T4.

Character types supported include:

Army, Navy, Marine, Scout, Merchant,
Noble, Performer, Scholar, Agent, Rogue.

Consolidated Skill List (* indicates Default Skills [see below])

Administration*
Aircraft (choose from Copter, Prop Airplane, Jet Airplane)
Archeology (one of many "Majors" for the Scholar character type).
Archery*
Armorer
Astrogration
Athletics*
Battle Dress
Biology
Blade Weapons* (choose from Short Blade*, Long Blade*)
Brawling (Unarmed)*
Bribery*
Broker*
Camouflage*
Carousing*
Chemistry
Commo*
Computer*
Craftsman
Demolitions
Diplomacy*
Disguise*
Electronics
Engineering
Environment Combat*
Equestrian*
Fast Talk*
Fencing
Field Artillery
First Aid* (very high levels become EMT)
Forensics
Forgery*
Forward Observer
Gambling
Grav Craft*
Gravitics
Gun Combat* (choose from Handgun*, Rifle*, Shotgun*, SMG*)
Gunnery
Heavy Weapons*
History
Instruction*
Interrogation*
Intimidation*
Intrusion*
Investigation*
Jack of All Trades
Language (Specific)
Law
Leadership*
Linguistics
Mechanics
Medical
Melee (Armed)*
Navigation*
Perception*
Performance (Art)
Performance (Dance)
Performance (Drama)
Performance (Music)
Performance (Writing)
Philosophy*
Physics
Pilot
Psionicology (an academic endeavor)
Psychology*
Recon*
Research*
Robotics
Sensors
Ship’s Boat
Stealth*
Steward
Streetwise*
Surface Vehicle*
Survey
Survival*
Tactics*
Throwing*
Trader*
Vacc Suit*
Watercraft*

Cascade Skills. A cascade skill allows the character to choose from a list
and receives level 1 in that skill; He also gets level (1/2) in all others
within the cascade.

Aircraft
Blade Weapons
Gun Combat

*Default Skill (A character can always try a task at using one of these
default skills at level 0). This is not an especially lucrative endeavor, but
it does have some chance of success.




------------------------------

From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 17:36:04 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Imperial Map

Is there a resource somewhere that has all of the sectors of the Imperium
mapped out w/ UPPs, I was reading Rebellion in preparation for an upcoming
game I am running and they refferenced exactly how many weeks it took a Jump
6 ship and the X-Boat network, along with the average Parsecs per week less
than 6 and 4 like 2.6 and 2.3 or somehting like that.  It made me realise
that somewhere there is a comprehensive Imperial Map.  I would love to get
my hands on it for a Rebellion game to see the Illiesh Sector, and
Zaggudashaar (sp) sector I have Diapsora.  i would love to get Core and
Massilia.

DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:30:28 -0400
Subject: Xboat List vs Traveller List

I'm trying to figure which list to post to (rather than cross post to both).
Given that Xboat deals with earlier (CT and Mega; roughly pre-rebellion) and
Traveller deals with post-rebellion, I still puzzle whether T4 fits into
Xboat (because it is based on CT and deals with pre-rebellion, i.e. Year 0
for the moment) or Traveller (because it is the "latest" rules set.

To be consistent and to avoid cross posting, I've opted to post to the
Traveller list. If this proves wrong or unpopular, please let me know.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:03:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Xboat List vs Traveller List

> I'm trying to figure which list to post to (rather than cross post to both).
> Given that Xboat deals with earlier (CT and Mega; roughly pre-rebellion) and
> Traveller deals with post-rebellion, I still puzzle whether T4 fits into
> Xboat (because it is based on CT and deals with pre-rebellion, i.e. Year 0
> for the moment) or Traveller (because it is the "latest" rules set.

> To be consistent and to avoid cross posting, I've opted to post to the
> Traveller list. If this proves wrong or unpopular, please let me know.

I think Traveller is the best choice because it has always been for Traveller
regardless of era or rules set.  CT and MT posts have always been welcome. 
The only rule was no TNE on Xboat.  I was waiting to see what the game was
going to look like before I tried to urge a direction (which I didn't want to
do).  Thanks for taking the time to keep us informed!!!
 

AAA (Anxiously awaiting August)
Rob
- -- 
Rob Miracle
rwm@mpgn.com
for webmaster@mpgn.com

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 19:45:10 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List for T4

On Wed, 5 Jun 1996 CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> Character types supported include:
> 
> Army, Navy, Marine, Scout, Merchant,
> Noble, Performer, Scholar, Agent, Rogue.

Agent...whoo hoo!  One of my favorite alternative character types (as 
evidenced by my home-grown advanced generation system for them :).  

The skills list looks excellent.  I just have one suggestion:  I found it 
convenient to create a new skill called Concealment for the Agent 
character, so that they could hide items about their body with some 
skill.  Sure, it's better to role-play that out, but such can be said of 
many (if not all) skills on the list.

Thank you for posting this information!


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: TRAVELAGT@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:24:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Imperial Map

unsubscribe traveller

------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 22:50:29 -0500
Subject: RE: A suggestion

unsubscribe druid@datatek.com 

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:40:01 -0800
Subject: Re: Xboat List vs Traveller List

On  5 Jun 96 at 19:03, Rob Miracle spewed:

> do).  Thanks for taking the time to keep us informed!!!
>  

I've got to echo this.  As I die hard fan of the game from the 
beginning, it's really nice that you and IG are taking the time to 
keep us informed, and solicit opinions where useful.  :-)

Stu
   
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 23:40:01 -0800
Subject: Design Survey Results...

Hello all,

I finished tabulating the results of the design poll.  Rather than clog 
the mailing list with a million lines of statistical analysis, I would prefer 
to send the information to you individually.  E-Mail me if you want the 
full blown report.  Here are a few general conclusions, to whet your 
appetite (or make you feel grateful I didn't post it to the list, depending 
on your point of view).

There were 62 total responses.  The most popular design system 
for starships was FF&S, although it was preferred overall by only 35% 
of total users.  Of those users familiar with the CT & MT systems as 
well as FF&S, that percentage rose to 52%, still only a slim majority 
of total players.  MT was a distant second with about 25%, with High 
Guard at about 20%.  Virtually nobody wants something as simplistic 
as book 2.

Of those players who were not familiar with all 4 systems, the 
majority owned MT & CT, but never bought FF&S.   GDW had a good idea 
in FF&S though, as several players who do not use the TNE background 
still use FF&S as a design system (and presumably TNE rules for 
vehicular/ship  combat.  

Vehicles: 
There was nothing approaching  a consensus on what system was preferred 
for craft design.  Several people who liked FF&S as a ship design 
system expressed a dislike for FF&S as a vehicle design system, and 
many of those expressed a preference for MT.

The breakdown between MT, Striker, & FF&S was as follows:

FF&S: approx. 30%
MT: approx 25%
Striker approx 20%
N/A approx 25%

There was no significant difference in percentage for those who were 
familiar with all 3 systems.  Ironically enough, about 1/4 of the people 
who responded to the poll said that they'd never used any of the three 
systems to design a vehicle of any type.  Clearly, a Sears catalog of vehicle 
types would satisfy a lot of these people.  An FF&S lite may not be as 
necessary for vehicles as ships.

General Conclusions:
Just about everybody wanted some complexity to ship design.  Book 2 
was familiar to all but 7 of the 62 respondents, and yet only 3 of 
them expressed any desire to still use the system.  FF&S was a 
favorite of the more complex 3 (MT, HG & FF&S), but not by much 
of a margin.  When compared by those who'd owned all 4 systems, 
FF&S was a majority favorite, but not overwhelmingly so.  A 2 tiered 
approach such as that espoused by Don & Dave would appear to be 
the way to go.  Clearly, there is a market for something as complex as 
FF&S, but it is equally clear that GDW made a mistake when they did 
not release a less complex ship/vehicle design system for those unwilling 
to tackle FF&S.

As far as vehicle design, results are less clear.  FF&S is still a 
favorite, but frankly, there were a number of advocates for MT & 
Striker as well.  FF&S would probably be the way to go, but it may 
need to be tweaked, refined or overhauled to satisfy a number of the 
complaints I heard about it.

My unsolicited and perhaps unneeded advice to IG:

Use a 2 tiered approach for ship design &.  There are a number of 
"gearheads" who love the detail and complexity of FF&S, but there is 
a nearly equal number who still want a certain level of detail, 
without getting into overwhelming complexity.  A Medium Complexity/High 
Complexity step is probably the way to go.

Finally, whatever system winds up going into the ship design rules, 
it is ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL, that these rules be carefully proofread 
and laid out in a logical fashion.  Judging by the responses given to 
the unworkable parts of MT & FF&S, as they were prior to the errata 
fixes, this really hurt GDW.  The number of comments like:  "I tried 
to design a ship using XXX 1st edition, got halfway through and gave 
up, because the rules were poorly written..." comments that I got 
were unbelievable.  It is my opinion that the poorly edited ship 
design and combat rules killed MT they consumed most of the errata 
(other than the Merchant Advanced Character Gen system)..., and they 
turned a few people off from FF&S as well.  In GDW's defense, they 
did do a good job of making these 2 systems workable with the error 
corrections, but they lost a lot of people by not releasing a 
finished product to begin with.

Believe it or not, that is a synopsis of the conclusions and data in 
the report.  For the full report, e-mail me at the address below.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #58
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 6 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 059

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Dissin Nilsen - stop it!
         2. Re: Draft Skill List
         3. Re: Draft Skill List
         4. Re: Draft Skill List
         5. Drives, Another Take on Thruster Explaination
         6. Re: Thruster Plates
         7. Re: Draft Skills List
         8. Re: Thruster Plates
         9. Re: Draft Skill List

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 00:55:24 -0700
Subject: Re: Dissin Nilsen - stop it!

From:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM" 30-MAY-1996 17:33:06.78
To:	IN%"Traveller@MPGN.COM"
CC:	
Subj:	Dissin Nilsen - stop it!

Date: Thu, 30 May 1996 23:18:57 +0100
From: E.Watters@Queens-Belfast.AC.UK
Subject: Dissin Nilsen - stop it!
Sender: owner-traveller@MPGN.COM
To: Traveller@MPGN.COM
Reply-to: traveller@MPGN.COM
Message-id: <009A3206.D7259CC0.9@v2.qub.ac.uk>
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT
Precedence: bulk

I must say that I've continually been annoyed by people who post
to the list cursing Traveller writers, though most focus their
ire on Dave Nilsen.


Now I'd like to see people being a bit more civil on the list - then maybe 
we would get responses from people like Dave and Loren that arn't just
one-line refutations of some hurtful and unhelpful comment.

Eamon Watters. 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I lot of the antipathy towards GDW et al. goes back to when TNE was first
announced & described to this list. You may have read earlier references
to the arrogant attitude that GDW displayed towards subscribers to this
list. I would use the word condescending, myself. When you treat people
in such a fashion it can't be surprising that reciprocation occurs, esp.
considering it's long been obvious who turned out to be the most accurate 
when predicting the fate of TNE. 

Conclusion? Treat people poorly & you will be treated likewise.

Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu


------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 11:47:48 +0200
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List

>Character types supported include:
>
>Army, Navy, Marine, Scout, Merchant,
>Noble, Performer, Scholar, Agent, Rogue.

Doesn't people from university go for adventure? What's about Scientists,
Engineers or Doctors? Or should Scholar be a collective category for them?
But why didn't you then also summarize Army, Navy and Marine to (for
example) Soldier? 

>Consolidated Skill List (* indicates Default Skills [see below])

To justify my following critics I'd like to say that if I've made no
comment, I agree with that skill. The game should have about 50-60 skills,
but not more. Perhaps you should drop one or two skills to lower the number. 

>Archery*

The use of archaic missle or throwing weapons a default skill? I don't think so.

>Armorer

Building armor on your own? I would drop this skill in favor of some more
important skil.

>Craftsman

What does a craftsman craft? A baker? a bricklayer? A goldsmith? I would
drop it.

>Environment Combat*

I'd count special training to the corresponding weapon skill and drop this.

>Equestrian*

Does this skill also include normal riding (for me, it's a somewhat unusual
term I had to look up)? Why not call it simple Riding?

>Fencing

A special skill? Why not included in Blade weapon?

>Forward Observer

I never understand what's the roleplaying use of that skill. As a general
rule, I would try to distinguish between occupation (or role) skills and
activity skills (more general). To be a forward observer is an occupation
(IMHO) but to be that, you have to be trained in communication, stealth and
to keep cool.

>Gunnery
>Heavy Weapons*

What's the difference between these two skills? Isn't a cannon a heavy weapon?

>Jack of All Trades

I would drop this skill because experience with old Traveller has show that
this 'Mac Guyver'-like skill causes lot's of problems because it's too
advantagerous.

>Melee (Armed)*

That's the difference to blade weapon? (What I'd like to say: think about
building more general skills where blade weapons are a special case)

>Performance (Art)
>Performance (Dance)
>Performance (Drama)
>Performance (Music)
>Performance (Writing)

Nice, but very unimportant for roleplaying in the Traveller millieu, IMHO. Drop.

>Philosophy*

Again. That's roleplaying but no player can stat 'my character has just
created a new meanful philosophic statement because I rolled successfully
against philosophy. GM, think about something like "I know that I know nothing"'

>Psionicology (an academic endeavor)

Oh, that's a real improvement. Good.

>Research*

Can you research something independ from a scientific discipline? As far as
I know, no German university teach general research but you only learn
researching together with all other knowledge of the specific discipline.

>Surface Vehicle*

Including boats that swim on the water's surface? :-) (What's about Ground
vehicle?)

Btw, will the basic rules book also cover alien races? Does they have
special skills which have to be considered?


For my game, I use own rules (based on Forgotten Futures) with the following
skills. I tried to use as less as possible different skills. Please forgive
that the translation might be somewhat raw because I of course use German
language. Perhaps keep it as suggestion.

(The original German names were sorted alphabetically, so this disorder)

Astrogation     calculate jump destination / determine position
Civil engineer  plan & construct buildings
Mountaineering  climb with or without rope
Bribery         use money to put through one's intention
Combat pilot    deal with electronical weapon systems
Computer        deal with computers in non trivial manner (hack, progam)
Electronics     construct, analyse and reapair electronic devices
Energy weapon   use of small energy weapons (use Combat pilot for ship's laser)
Scouting        find one's way in unknow terrain, explore it, map it.
Investigation   do police work
First aid       treat simple injuries
Mining          find and mine ore and all kinds of minerals
Driving         use vehicles of subcategory
 - ground veh.  (wheeled and tracked vehicles from cars to old tanks)
 - vessel       (ships, submarines and hovercrafts from sailing boat to tanker)
 - grav veh.    (antigrav driven vehicles from air raft to heavy grav tank)
 - aircraft     (propeller planes, jets and helicopters)
 - spaceship    (ships boats and space fighters without jump drive)
Forging         do important documents on your own
Leadership      lead a group of people to a common goal
History         knowledge about Imperial history*
Business        trading and all kind of commercial experience
Brawling        unarmed combat or with use of improvised weapons
Stealth         sneak & hide
Hunting         chase and kill animals, read tracks.
Law             knowledge about Imperial law*
Communication   use and repair of communication devices
Contact         training to make successful contact with unknown or alien people
Warfare         strategy and tactics of military operations
Mechanical eng. plan, construct, analyse or repair machines and mechanical
devices
Medicine        training as doctor or medical scientist+
Streetwise      knowledge of subcultures of suburban milieux
Melee combat    use weapons of subcategory
 - blades       (pointed or edged weapons as knifes, swords, ...)
 - maces        (all kinds of blow weapons as clubs, quarterstaff, ...)
 - polearms     (weapons as helebard, spear, ...)
Pilot           pilot and basic knowledge about space ships#
Slug weapon     use of (automatic) pistols, gun, shotguns
Etiquette       correct behavior in the presence of nobles
Spacesuit       use of spacesuits or other environmental saving cloth
Riding          use of horses or other riding animals
Repair          skill to repair, puzzle over or improve them
 - vehicles       used if no other approviate skill can be used
 - devices 
 - weapons
Spaceship Eng.  Use, maintenance and repair of ship's engines.
Swim            also diving
Sensors         use of (ship's) sensors and analysis of results
Special weapon  collective category for all kinds of exotic weapons@
Languages       learn a foreign language
Demolition      use and defuse of bombs, grenades, etc.
Seduction       use one's grace to put through one's intention
Administration  to struggle with Imperial bureocracy*
Survival        survive in wilderness
Persuasion      convince people
Science         knowledge in subcategory
 - Farming      breedig of animals and plants  
 - Archeology   study of ancient building, cultures, ...
 - Biology      study of flora & fauna
 - Chemistry    the wide range of organic and anorganic chemistry
 - Genetics     decipher (or manipulate) the genetic code
 - Gravitics    knowledge about anti gravitational effect
 - Linguistics  semantic and structure of foreign languages
 - Physics      from simple mechanics to jumpspace mechanics
 - Planetology  geology, meteorology, 'ocean lore'
 - Robotics     construction and programing of neuronal computers
 - Xenobiology  study of alien races

* other governments than Imperium as subskill
+ surgery or other subdivision as subskill
# because piloting a spaceship isn't manual dexterity but using computers 
  it's a different skill.
@ each weapon (bow, rocketthrower, ...) is a different skill

bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 04:14:53 -0600
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List

At 11:47 am 6/6/96 +0200, Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de> wrote:
>>Forward Observer
>
>I never understand what's the roleplaying use of that skill. As a general

        Well, despite all the Politically Correct "let's get rid of violence
in roleplaying games" some people *like* military adventures. Doesn't mean
they're going to hole up on a farm in Montana or anything; it's simply exciting.

>rule, I would try to distinguish between occupation (or role) skills and
>activity skills (more general). To be a forward observer is an occupation
>(IMHO) but to be that, you have to be trained in communication, stealth and
>to keep cool.

        There's quite a bit more than that. You have to know ballistics, be
familiar with the performance of all the kinds of weapons your military
uses, know their effects and how to employ them, you have to know the
tactics and the procedures of whoever is doing the shooting (artillery,
aircraft, ship), you have to be skilled in recognizing all enemy *and*
friendly vehicles.

        Being able to communicate is important, but you could be the world's
best communicator and be *worthless* as a forward observer if you didn't
know *what* to look for, how to interpret it, and what to tell the firing unit.

        Sneaking around has nothing to do with being a forward observer,
although in some situations it may be helpful. Air Force forward observers
in airplanes aren't exactly inconspicuous, for example.

        Keeping cool applies to just about everything.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 18:45:00 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List

At 04:14 AM 6/6/96 -0600, David J. Golden wrote:
>At 11:47 am 6/6/96 +0200, Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de> wrote:
>>>Forward Observer
>>
>>I never understand what's the roleplaying use of that skill. As a general
[big snip]
>        Sneaking around has nothing to do with being a forward observer,
>although in some situations it may be helpful. Air Force forward observers
>in airplanes aren't exactly inconspicuous, for example.
>
>        Keeping cool applies to just about everything.
>--________________________________________________________________
>   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
>   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html
>
> 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
> the government - not the other way around.
>
>

        I would think that forward observer would be a skill limited to
either low-tech armies or the equivalent of Special Forces units...  Given
that militaries as primitive and low-tech as late 20th century American
forces <grin> show a remarkable trend towards recon drones, satellite
observation, and the like, wouldn't higher-tech militaries tend to use even
more sophisticated variants on the same approach?  I'm not saying that F-O
would be an obsolete skill, just that its usefulness would be limited to
(relatively rare?) situations where hi-tech means would be useless or
unavailable.
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: csbennet@lava.net (Morgan)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 01:01:46 -1000
Subject: Drives, Another Take on Thruster Explaination

Sorry about this, but I don't have a clue as to how to send this to the Beta
list and I couldn't get my mail to send direct to the recipient. 

>To: ereddoch@qrc.com (Eris Reddoch)
>From: csbennet@lava.net (Morgan)
>Subject: Drives, Another Take on Thruster Explaination
>Cc: 
>Bcc: 
>X-Attachments: 
>
>
>>>> >On 06/04/96 at 06:12 PM,  merrick@qrc.com (Merrick Burkhardt) said:
>>>> >The Fractional Jump Space (FJS) idea that Andy Lilly put forward in
>>>> >TML is the first step.  By having TPlates work by injecting gravitr
>>>> >(or in my variant mass) into a JSpace-like dimension (less than 1),
>>>> >you have an opening for non-standard physics.  <g>
>>>> 
>>>>         I'm not sure FJS fits with previous traveller incarnations .
>>>> seem to remember something about you have to be in, or out. No inbet
>>>> allowed. But I can't swear to where it is.
>
>>Let's say, Imperium scientists, using new gravtic technology, discover
>>a "hyper-space" dimension (different from jump space) with the proper
>>characteristics.  At Tech 12 they can make an opening of a few
>>cm..perhaps in the future a new way to travel between stars will be
>>possible.  Perhaps ftl communications will become possible.  (Gives
>>your scientists something else to research.)
>>
>>We *know* that they haven't made that next breakthrough a thousand
>>years from 0...but *they* don't. <g>
>>
>>Eris
>
>Hi, 
>
> I know I haven't been following this thread (or any much lately, 200
pieces of mail? SHEESH) but I feel it necessary to add my drop on
"reactionless thrusters" and jump space(or whatever). If you want Thruster
plates, you have to push against something right? Or pull or whatever...
Fractional Jump space leaves room for a lot more than you want by sheer
implication (Jump torps would be tame by comparison) but forego the cm's
part and replace it instead with millions (or billions)of pourous microholes
into jumpspace( or hyperspace or whatever) that basically only emit one way.
>
>What would they emit? Well, whatever you'd want to call them. But I'd
suggest that given the medium of the hole that you assume that the new
particles coming out of your 'skin' would be going very fast, have
negligible mass, and be very short lived. Possibly, the could decay back
into whence they came and very rapidly, that way you wouldn't have do deal
with the sensor effects as much. I'd like to say that on the other side of
the 'skin' everything would be going faster than light and be closer to a
fluid medium than a vacuum. Now here comes some real biggies(hide mode on)
>        If you want to have CG you have to justify it with Thruster plates
running around. So make thruster plates tied to "real" starships, ie you
have to have a working jumpdrive. BOOM goes the insecurity of the Doomsday
lifeboat. If you want to send your Far Trader carooning off at a planet,
fine, it's your gazillion million credits. Thrusters woudl work the same way
as they ever did, except the won't be reactionless. They HAVE a reaction but
its on our side. Thruster plates become technology reserved for races which
have jump drives. If you wish to further limit the maximium velocity of
thruster plates, then make assumed generalizations about the maximum
emission of the quasi-particles from the skin. And now you have to worry
about mass when figuring out your M drive and surface area...hmmm, maybe I
haven't thought this out as well as I thought...but I really think I am
going int the right direction with this.....
>       Please someone tell me what you think about this idea?
>
>Morgan
>


------------------------------

From: csbennet@lava.net (Morgan)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 01:03:50 -1000
Subject: Re: Thruster Plates

And here's another. Could someone please tell me how to send to the beta list?

>Eris Reddoch wrote:
>
>>Actually, this is a *feature* of the idea! <g> The rent is *very*
>>small, and science doesn't know how to make it any larger but maybe
>>someday....
>>
>>...like at TL 17, maybe there will be a breakthrough and the "gate"
>>can be made large enough for an entire ship.
>>
>>The other thing is that a fractional jspace is just that..a fraction
>>of jump 1.  Even if you could make an opening larger than a few cm, it
>>wouldn't be as effiecent as jumping with current technology.  Not with
>>TL 12 tech, for sure.
>
>If you assume that jump space is a fluid medium then you could forego all
talk of making "stargates" , say that if you make the hole too big then it
just all starts to rush out too fast for you to control...sort of rips you
apart.
>

Morgan


------------------------------

From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 96 12:11:00 PDT
Subject: Re: Draft Skills List

Marc wrote:

>Draft List (Subject to Revision).

which included weapon skills of:

>Archery*
>Blade Weapons* (choose from Short Blade*, Long Blade*)
>Brawling (Unarmed)*
>Fencing
>Field Artillery
>Gun Combat* (choose from Handgun*, Rifle*, Shotgun*, SMG*)
>Gunnery
>Heavy Weapons*
>Melee (Armed)*

Where do energy weapons of various kinds fit into this framework?
Are they subsumed by the Handgun/Rifle skills?  I would hope not,
as I think there is a good case for keeping them distinctive.

Are they to be held over to a supplement to the main rules?

Or am I just being pedantic and picky and I should just assume
that they will be included under gun combat?

Cheers

Iain
iain.rowan@sunderland.ac.uk

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 05:24:35 -0600
Subject: Re: Thruster Plates

At 01:03 am 6/6/96 -1000, you wrote:
>And here's another. Could someone please tell me how to send to the beta list?

        To join, send email to gdw-beta-request@qrc.com. To just send mail
to the list, email gdw-beta@qrc.com
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 00:33:24 +1300
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List

>From: FarFuture@aol.com
>Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:30:32 -0400
>Subject: Draft Skill List
>
>Draft List (Subject to Revision).
>
>This list provides the basic character types and the range of skills which
>will be available in the character generation process in T4.

       <<snip>>
Hi all,

Thanks for posting this and allowing a sneak preview at the skills in T4.
One omission I found in the skills was on related to Geology. I think this
is one of the fundimental sciences, along with Physics, Chemistry, Biology
and Astronomy. Geology would be of use to a Scout character when they are
dealing with the mineral resources of a planet, assessing the weather
patterns and climate. This could be covered in the Survey skill, but to me
this is more about how to get the information, the use of sensors and there
deployment.

Hope this is of some use.


Thanks in advance,


 ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  Blair Lynch-Blosse, BSc (MSc student)         lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz
  Earth Sciences Department
  University of Waikato
  Hamilton                                            175.19'E 37.47'S
  New Zealand                "Trust No One. Deny Everything" - X-Files
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 6 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 060

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Draft Skill List
         2. Re: Draft Skill List
         3. Re: T4 Character Types
         4. Re: T4 Character Types
         5. Re: Draft Skill List
         6. Re: Spacecraft Design
         7. re: Draft Skill List
         8. Re: Draft Skill List
         9. Stefan Aust's Comments Re: Skills List.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 08:55:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List

On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, Stefan Matthias Aust wrote:

> 
> Doesn't people from university go for adventure? What's about Scientists,
> Engineers or Doctors? Or should Scholar be a collective category for them?
> But why didn't you then also summarize Army, Navy and Marine to (for
> example) Soldier? 


Because, like it or not, Traveller always has and always will have a
higher proportion of military characters than a true cross section of
Imperial culture would have.

> 
> >Consolidated Skill List (* indicates Default Skills [see below])
> 
> To justify my following critics I'd like to say that if I've made no
> comment, I agree with that skill. The game should have about 50-60 skills,
> but not more. Perhaps you should drop one or two skills to lower the number. 


Why?  Most referee's are just going to end up devising new skills anyways,
why remove "one or two" to satisfy some arbitrary limit?

> 
> >Archery*
> 
> The use of archaic missle or throwing weapons a default skill? I don't think so.


Depends on where your character comes from...

> 
> >Armorer
> 
> Building armor on your own? I would drop this skill in favor of some more
> important skil.


Such as?  What if you *really* needed to fix your battle dress and there
is no shop within light years??  

> 
> >Craftsman
> 
> What does a craftsman craft? A baker? a bricklayer? A goldsmith? I would
> drop it.


It is a good rollplaying skill.  Someone with a high craftsman skill would
have income to fall back on, or might be hired by some noble to perform
some work.


> 
> >Environment Combat*
> 
> I'd count special training to the corresponding weapon skill and drop this.


Its got little to do with the weapon skill you use.

> 
> >Equestrian*
> 
> Does this skill also include normal riding (for me, it's a somewhat unusual
> term I had to look up)? Why not call it simple Riding?



Equestrian is riding, the "real" name of the practice of riding horses.

> 
> >Fencing
> 
> A special skill? Why not included in Blade weapon?


Agreed,

> 
> >Forward Observer
> 
> I never understand what's the roleplaying use of that skill. As a general
> rule, I would try to distinguish between occupation (or role) skills and
> activity skills (more general). To be a forward observer is an occupation
> (IMHO) but to be that, you have to be trained in communication, stealth and
> to keep cool.



This has been adressed in another post, but you obviously don't know alot
about what a forward observer does.

> 
> >Gunnery
> >Heavy Weapons*
> 
> What's the difference between these two skills? Isn't a cannon a heavy weapon?


Ummm...gunnery applies to ship turret and bay weapons, heavy weapons to
ground based weapons.  Big difference in paradign and operation.

> 
> >Jack of All Trades
> 
> I would drop this skill because experience with old Traveller has show that
> this 'Mac Guyver'-like skill causes lot's of problems because it's too
> advantagerous.



Only if the referee is a poor one.

> 
> >Melee (Armed)*
> 
> That's the difference to blade weapon? (What I'd like to say: think about
> building more general skills where blade weapons are a special case)
> 
> >Performance (Art)
> >Performance (Dance)
> >Performance (Drama)
> >Performance (Music)
> >Performance (Writing)
> 
> Nice, but very unimportant for roleplaying in the Traveller millieu, IMHO. Drop.


*very* important to some people.  what if someone wanted to roleplay a
famous writer who decided to travel and seek adventure to write his
greatest work.  Or a skilled actor who seeks anonynimnity in the stars,
dissolusioned by life under the lights...the list goes on.  No need to be
so closed minded.

> 
> >Philosophy*
> 
> Again. That's roleplaying but no player can stat 'my character has just
> created a new meanful philosophic statement because I rolled successfully
> against philosophy. GM, think about something like "I know that I know nothing"'


No, but the referee can use the skill to judge if a character would know
about a particular race's philosopy, or that of a given system.

> 
> >Psionicology (an academic endeavor)
> 
> Oh, that's a real improvement. Good.
> 
> >Research*
> 
> Can you research something independ from a scientific discipline? As far as
> I know, no German university teach general research but you only learn
> researching together with all other knowledge of the specific discipline.


The ability to research is independant of any scientific discipline.  Ask
anyone in the research dept. at a big newspaper.

> 
> >Surface Vehicle*
> 
> Including boats that swim on the water's surface? :-) (What's about Ground
> vehicle?)
> 
> Btw, will the basic rules book also cover alien races? Does they have
> special skills which have to be considered?
> 
> 

Inquiring minds want to know!!  I for one think aliens would perhaps best
be treated in separate supplements.



> --
> Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
>         http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/
> 
> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 09:16:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List

At 11:47 AM 6/6/96 +0200, you wrote:
>>Character types supported include:
>>
>>Army, Navy, Marine, Scout, Merchant,
>>Noble, Performer, Scholar, Agent, Rogue.
>
>Doesn't people from university go for adventure? What's about Scientists,
>Engineers or Doctors? Or should Scholar be a collective category for them?
>But why didn't you then also summarize Army, Navy and Marine to (for
>example) Soldier? 

You could say this about any profession that would be around in the 5000th
century.  Where are the computer programmers, law enforcement (not quite the
same as Agent), Wet Navy, Air Force, etc.  The plain and simple truth is
Marc wants to keep the number of classes low for the basic game.  That
doesn't mean we wont have a "Citizens of the Imperium" like supplement later.

Why not consolidate Army Navy and Marines?  Well this is a Sci-Fi game, and
in most sci-fi settings, the military represents a large portion of
'importants' of the genre.  Particularly with the Imperium's natural ability
to engage in wars, that is one area where consolidation is not practical,
and its not CT compatiable.  Law Enforcment, Bounty Hunters, etc can be
consolidated into Agent.  Scientist, Computer Programmers, Doctors, can be
consolidated into Scholor if necessary, but you can be a Noble Doctor, or a
Navy Doctor as well.

>>Archery*
>The use of archaic missle or throwing weapons a default skill? I don't
think >so.

I don't consider my self to have an Archery skill, but I can certanly pick up a
bow and have a reasonable chance of hitting a target.  I think that more skills 
should be defaults.  There are a lot of these skills that I (In real life)
would classify my self as a skill level of 0.  Not good enough to be a 1,
but not bad enough to warrent a penalty on a chance to do something.

>>Armorer
>Building armor on your own? I would drop this skill in favor of some more
>important skil.

I think I have to agree here.  In a Sci-Fi setting, people are going to be
more likely to purchase armor than build it.  As far as Battle Dress repair,
that could be included as part of the Battle Dress skill, or Mechanic.  Yes
there are some barbaric planets where this skill would be applicable, but
there isn't a barbarian career.

>>Craftsman
>What does a craftsman craft? A baker? a bricklayer? A goldsmith? I would
>drop it.

This is a good skill to have as a default skill.  Most people can pick up a
hammer or saw to preform the basic tasks, but most people arnt going to have
a skill level of 1, which would be able to build a house for example.  I can
see this as being a good background skill (limited J-o-T for engineering types).

>>Environment Combat*
>I'd count special training to the corresponding weapon skill and drop this.

This seems to replace Zero-G Combat, and High-G Combat.  Still needed.

>>Fencing
>A special skill? Why not included in Blade weapon?

Seems redundant with Blade Combat but if you notice, the Blade cascade has
long blade (cutlass, etc) and short blade (knife).  These are skills at
delivering harm to someone.  Fencing is the art of swordsmanship.  Someone
trained in bayonet combat, or with a cutlass, isn't necessarily going to
know how to fence.

On the other hand, we are making an assumption here.  This could be a "how
to get rid of that stolen data chip" fencing skill. :-)

>>Forward Observer
>I never understand what's the roleplaying use of that skill. As a general
>rule, I would try to distinguish between occupation (or role) skills and
>activity skills (more general). To be a forward observer is an occupation
>(IMHO) but to be that, you have to be trained in communication, stealth and
>to keep cool.

Forward observer, the occupation has to know communications, stealth, etc.
Howver there is a Forward observer skill as well.  This is the skill of
using laser designators, reading lat/long coordinates, using specialized
equipment
etc.  This the ability to actually determine what to call in for an air-strike.

>>Gunnery
>>Heavy Weapons*
>
>What's the difference between these two skills? Isn't a cannon a heavy weapon?

Heavy weapons is a ground based weapons skill.  Gunnery is a ships weapons
skill.  There is quite a difference in firing a morter, Rocket Propelled
Grenade, and an artillery piece and firing a turret laser on a ship.  I
would allow someone with certian Heavy Weapons expertiese to have a default
in gunnery.  Things like sand casters, and missle batteries on a ship could
be operated in a pinch by a person with Heavy Weapons, but they are different.

>>Jack of All Trades
>I would drop this skill because experience with old Traveller has show that
>this 'Mac Guyver'-like skill causes lot's of problems because it's too
>advantagerous.

J-o-T isn't as powerful.  It gives players a chance at having a Level 0
skill in any thing they try.  All it does is remove the penalty, if they
make a J-o-T skill check.  I need to disarm that nuke before it blows.  I
don't have electrician, so I use my J-o-t--3 skill.  I roll a 3, and need a
8.  3+3 =6,
sorry, I have to take a penalty on my skill check.  Too bad, you should have
cut the green wire....

>>Melee (Armed)*
>
>That's the difference to blade weapon? (What I'd like to say: think about
>building more general skills where blade weapons are a special case)

I have to agree with this, unless this skill is going to include things that
there arn't blade skills for, like hammers, clubs, saps, staffs, chairs,
golf clubs, hockey sticks . . .  Brawling with Weapon as opposed to Brawling
(unarmed). (which was listed BTW)

>>Performance (Art)
>>Performance (Dance)
>>Performance (Drama)
>>Performance (Music)
>>Performance (Writing)
>
>Nice, but very unimportant for roleplaying in the Traveller millieu, IMHO.
Drop.

Needed for the Performer career.  I suspect that this will be more NPC
related, but if you want to play a Music Star, justifying that
Battle-dress-5 skill will be a bit difficult.  There is a need for the
Performer career, and that career needs some skills.  


>>Philosophy*
>
>Again. That's roleplaying but no player can stat 'my character has just
>created a new meanful philosophic statement because I rolled successfully
>against philosophy. GM, think about something like "I know that I know
>nothing"'

Ah contrair.  Its easier to role-play a character who is dumber than the
player, but it is hard to role-play a character who is smarter.  You may
have a player who has never had a chemistry class, but his character is
expected to perform some chemistry related skill.  You wouldn't expect the
player to know that you add the acid to the water who has never had a
chemistry class.  That is why you have skills.  You are not playing your
self.  "Geez, I need to understand the way they think.  Can I use my
philosphy skill to do that?"  

>>Research*
>
>Can you research something independ from a scientific discipline? As far as
>I know, no German university teach general research but you only learn
>researching together with all other knowledge of the specific discipline.

Since this is marked as a default skill.  I think it is for those who have a
strong Chemistry background to be able to research an astrophysics problem.
Chemistry isn't the right skill, but they learned their Research skill from
Chemistry class.

I think this is a good first cut at the skills list.  If I had to cut out
any one skill, it would be to consolidate First Aid and Medic.  We always
played Medic-1 was first aid, Medic-2 was EMT, Medic-3 was Doctor.  Medic-0
may be more appropraite for First Aid though as the default skill (again
most people can fix a cut, or treat a sprained ankle but would not be
considered to have any medical training.)

I would also consider changing Athletics to Performance (Athletics) or
dropping the "Performance" all together, and having the skills: Athletics,
Art, Dance, Drama, Music, Writing.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle
TanSoft.com
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 09:22:55 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 Character Types

At 07:58 AM 6/6/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>Character types supported include:
>>
>>Army, Navy, Marine, Scout, Merchant,
>>Noble, Performer, Scholar, Agent, Rogue.
>
>Hmmm, I like the new class 'agent' which sounds quite interesting, as does
>'performer'.  However, I note that you've dropped my two favourite character
>types, BELTER and HUNTER.  Is there any chance of these being included in
>the T4 main rules book.  Especially the belter.  I always thought that he
>fit into the Traveller definition of an adventurer excellently and I saw
>hundreds of possibilities for adventures using a belter.  Same with a
>hunter, since they go to uncharted worlds for game hunting, there's a lot of
>possibilities.

I always had trouble justifiing the belter.  Seems that the belter could be a subform of Merchant.  A belter is a merchant who is a hot pilot, and enjoys sandblasting rocks a lot.  In the end, he has a bay of goods to sell.

The Hunter could be a Rogue, or Noble, or an Ex. Scout.  Actually, its one of the classes that is missing, that seems to fit the sci-fi game.  However, for a player character, their role is somewhat limited.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle
TanSoft.com
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 09:37:08 PDT
Subject: Re: T4 Character Types

Peter Miller writes [snipped]

... However, I note that you've dropped my two favourite character
>types, BELTER and HUNTER.  Is there any chance of these being included
in
>the T4 main rules book.  Especially the belter.  I always thought that
he
>fit into the Traveller definition of an adventurer excellently and I
saw
>hundreds of possibilities for adventures using a belter. 

I agree. Even in my TNE games, my players still like the BELTER class.
Is the 10 character class limit arbitrary, self-imposed? Or are your
plans for more, detailed, character classes to follow in supplements?




------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 07:04:40 -0800
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List

On  6 Jun 96 at 18:45, Roderick Darroch Elliott spewed:

>         I would think that forward observer would be a skill limited to
> either low-tech armies or the equivalent of Special Forces units...  Given
> that militaries as primitive and low-tech as late 20th century American
> forces <grin> show a remarkable trend towards recon drones, satellite
> observation, and the like, wouldn't higher-tech militaries tend to use even
> more sophisticated variants on the same approach?  I'm not saying that F-O
> would be an obsolete skill, just that its usefulness would be limited to
> (relatively rare?) situations where hi-tech means would be useless or
> unavailable.
>    *+-----------------------------------------------+*
>    | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
>    *+-----------------------------------------------+*

Remember though, not every world  in the Imperium is going to be 
TL12. Most won't, since TL 12 will be Imperial Maximum for Year 0.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 07:39:04 -0700
Subject: Re: Spacecraft Design

From:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM" 31-MAY-1996 09:18:01.56
To:	IN%"dperrin@mag7.com", IN%"farfuture@aol.com", IN%"ImperiumGames@ImperiumGames.com", IN%"ImperGame@aol.com"
CC:	IN%"Traveller@MPGN.COM", IN%"gdw-beta@qrc.com"
Subj:	Spacecraft Design

Date: Fri, 31 May 1996 09:52:07 -0600
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Subject: Spacecraft Design
Sender: owner-traveller@MPGN.COM

        As a previous survey and an ongoing survey have shown, and the
recent response to your stated intention to go back to CT/HG design rules
for spacecraft, most people (your customers, that is) are opposed to that
idea and prefer something more. The most popular design system by far seems
to be FF&S. 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Just because the bulk of the players on this list want what you want doesn't
mean that that's what the general public will buy enough of to support Trav.
In fact, from what happened with TNE, there's evidence of the opposite. Trav.
is supposed to an RPG, first & foremost, not a wargame or miniatures or gear-
head exerciser. I believe that TNE was way too complex to bring in the general
public. It's the same thing that happened to wargames more than 15 years ago.
There were warnings then, in S&T esp., but the hobby just kept on adding more
complexity until it became a niche. I applaud IG for recognizing this and tak-
ing steps to put Trav. back where it can once again appeal to a wide audience.

Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu


------------------------------

From: PBrenton@state.ma.us
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 96 9:27:16 EDT
Subject: re: Draft Skill List

>Draft List (Subject to Revision).

Among the missing skills(that I noticed);

Observation
	Everyone has a chance to notice things, some are trained to.  I'm not 
sure how close this is to Perception, but I would guess that where 
perception is;
"He was lying, his supplier can drop the price another 50 credits"
Observation is;
"He was wearing a brown Armani suit with traces of a white powder on the 
right sleeve"

Persuasion and Act/Bluff (TNE skills?) are missing, equal to Fast Talk I 
guess

Equestrian seems to replace riding.  I liked riding better because it 
implied non-terrestrial animals.

Don't see any skills for belters, should be Geology, and/or Mining (just 
Geology is probably enough).  They also would use Survey, Sensors and pilot 
of course, but they are there.

I would like to see a "Scrounging" skill, but I suppose that's too much for 
one task role.  ("We need 200 linear meters of ybrenium tubing and 50 rolls 
of duct tape in half an hour." "What color duct tape?")

I used 'Machinist' as the ability to manufacture parts (with the proper 
equipment).  This has come in handy at times.

>Melee (Armed)*

Is this intended to indicate both armed and unarmed?  If not, unarmed 
combat is a big gap.
oops, just noticed;

>Brawling (Unarmed)*

This is ok, but I'd prefer 'unarmed combat' of which level 1 is akin to 
brawling, whilst level 4 is akin to a black belt in Tae Kwon Do (or the art 
of your choice).  "Brawling-5" seems to me to be the ability to break 
someones nose easily, not break someones neck effortlessly.

Having specific effects for the results of different styles of unarmed 
combat is the realm of house rules (or perhaps a supplement).

>Ship

What's this?  typo for ship's boat?

I always thought that ship's boat and pilot were so identical that they 
should be combined.  Now we hav "Grav Craft" as well.  What's the 
difference?

>Mechanics

This should be a cascade, or specialized skill.  I have used as a roll to 
fix grav vehicles (along with gravitics only if the grav units themselves 
are damaged/broken), internal combustion engines, damaged turret mechanisms,
 damaged or broken fixed wing aircraft parts, also to conduct maintanence 
on a helo, etc.  Perhaps this should be kept to a house rule, but it seems 
a bit too general of a skill to me.

Perhaps to repair a specific vehicle one would need the skill required to 
operate that vehicle as well as mechanic skill.  This is a bit unrealistic 
(Do aircraft mechanics need to know how to fly the thing? no.), but 
provides a limit on mechanic skill.

Positive comments;
I like First Aid as seperate from medical.
I can see a good basic set of skills for small unit combat/mercenary 
campaigns.
I like having a law skill distinct from Admin.
Vacc Suit is much easier to say than Environment suit (but zero-g-combat is 
easier to say than environment combat).
Athletics and performace skills have interesting role playing 
possibilities.
I like the concept that some skills are present in everyone at 
not-very-useful levels, and some are not.

Additional suggestions;
Skills should be interrelated.  This is akin to the concept of 'enabling 
skills' from some version of trav.  If a PC has both engineering and 
mechanics, for example, she may be able to apply both skills to a 
particular repair, increasing the chance of success perhaps by half of the 
less applicable skill.

Pete
- -------------
Original Text
From: FarFuture@aol.com, on 6/5/96 6:30 PM:
Draft List (Subject to Revision).

This list provides the basic character types and the range of skills which
will be available in the character generation process in T4.

Character types supported include:

Army, Navy, Marine, Scout, Merchant,
Noble, Performer, Scholar, Agent, Rogue.

Consolidated Skill List (* indicates Default Skills [see below])

Administration*
Aircraft (choose from Copter, Prop Airplane, Jet Airplane)
Archeology (one of many "Majors" for the Scholar character type).
Archery*
Armorer
Astrogration
Athletics*
Battle Dress
Biology
Blade Weapons* (choose from Short Blade*, Long Blade*)
Brawling (Unarmed)*
Bribery*
Broker*
Camouflage*
Carousing*
Chemistry
Commo*
Computer*
Craftsman
Demolitions
Diplomacy*
Disguise*
Electronics
Engineering
Environment Combat*
Equestrian*
Fast Talk*
Fencing
Field Artillery
First Aid* (very high levels become EMT)
Forensics
Forgery*
Forward Observer
Gambling
Grav Craft*
Gravitics
Gun Combat* (choose from Handgun*, Rifle*, Shotgun*, SMG*)
Gunnery
Heavy Weapons*
History
Instruction*
Interrogation*
Intimidation*
Intrusion*
Investigation*
Jack of All Trades
Language (Specific)
Law
Leadership*
Linguistics
Mechanics
Medical
Melee (Armed)*
Navigation*
Perception*
Performance (Art)
Performance (Dance)
Performance (Drama)
Performance (Music)
Performance (Writing)
Philosophy*
Physics
Pilot
Psionicology (an academic endeavor)
Psychology*
Recon*
Research*
Robotics
Sensors
Ship
Stealth*
Steward
Streetwise*
Surface Vehicle*
Survey
Survival*
Tactics*
Throwing*
Trader*
Vacc Suit*
Watercraft*

Cascade Skills. A cascade skill allows the character to choose from a list
and receives level 1 in that skill; He also gets level (1/2) in all others
within the cascade.

Aircraft
Blade Weapons
Gun Combat

*Default Skill (A character can always try a task at using one of these
default skills at level 0). This is not an especially lucrative endeavor, 
but
it does have some chance of success.




------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 11:12:01 PDT
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List

Rob writes [snipped]

>>>Craftsman
>>What does a craftsman craft? A baker? a bricklayer? A goldsmith? I
would
>>drop it.
>
>This is a good skill to have as a default skill.  Most people can pick
up a hammer or saw to preform the basic tasks, but most people arnt
going to have a skill level of 1, which would be able to build a house
for example.  I can...

We must be careful about the definition of Craftsman. IMO the skill
represents specialized knowledge that an artisan would require. It
replaces the Jewelry, Metallurgy, Carpentry etc. from TNE. A default
skill here (and I would require my players to specialize the craftsman
skill anyway) would indicate that a Jewler can lay bricks. Maybe if his
background was right, but, I don't think so.

>>>Forward Observer
>>I never understand what's the roleplaying use of that skill. As a
general
>>rule, I would try to distinguish between occupation (or role) skills
and
>>activity skills (more general). To be a forward observer is an
occupation
>>(IMHO) but to be that, you have to be trained in communication,
stealth and
>>to keep cool.
>
>Forward observer, the occupation has to know communications, stealth,
etc.
>Howver there is a Forward observer skill as well.  This is the skill
of
>using laser designators, reading lat/long coordinates, using
specialized
>equipment
>etc.  This the ability to actually determine what to call in for an
air-strike.

I liked the Liason skill from CT for this skill. However, Liason
suffered from the Ship to Shore limitation. The FO skill is more
general. It includes surface to surface. I would keep it. My players
have attempted to attack surface targets with thier shipborn weapons
and lamented not having the FO skill.

>>>Gunnery
>>>Heavy Weapons*
>>
>>What's the difference between these two skills? Isn't a cannon a
heavy weapon?
>
>Heavy weapons is a ground based weapons skill.  Gunnery is a ships
weapons
>skill.  ...

Another difference is the range of combat. With Gunnery (ship weapons)
and the scale of distances that space weapons operate, the shooter
doesn't see the target, judge projectile drop, windage, etc. Heavy
weapons includes indirectly fired artillery, which may include these
things. However, most applications of Heavy Weapons will be by the
player aiming at a target he can see. Subconsciously (or consciously)
accounting for variations and pulling the trigger. In general, the
shooter computes the firing solution. With Gunnery, the shooter has a
target from a sensor, an abstract set of variables that describe its
motion, and a computer to tell him how to aim the weapon. Only at
extremely close range will the computer be the human (or Aslan, or
whatever). The infamous star-wars turret shooting at targets with
speeds in excess of 4000 kph. (That's a sore nerve for me, knowing
something about air defense.) Bottom line and no more waste of BW, keep
both.

>>>Melee (Armed)*
>>
>>That's the difference to blade weapon? (What I'd like to say: think
about
>>building more general skills where blade weapons are a special case)
>
>I have to agree with this, unless this skill is going to include
things that
>there arn't blade skills for, like hammers, clubs, saps, staffs,
chairs,
>golf clubs, hockey sticks . . .  Brawling with Weapon as opposed to
Brawling
>(unarmed). (which was listed BTW)

How about cascading Brawling (armed and unamred) and keeping blade
combat separate as shown?

>>>Performance (Art)
>>>Performance (Dance)
>>>Performance (Drama)
>>>Performance (Music)
>>>Performance (Writing)
>>
>>Nice, but very unimportant for roleplaying in the Traveller millieu,
IMHO.
>Drop.
>
>Needed for the Performer career.  I suspect that this will be more NPC
>related, but if you want to play a Music Star, justifying that
>Battle-dress-5 skill will be a bit difficult.  There is a need for the
>Performer career, and that career needs some skills.  
>

Got to keep them. Instrumental in developing an in-depth character. as
an aside, I have a Dark Conspiracy character that is a lawyer turned
mystic turned performer. Performance skills would have allowed me to
specialize in acting. (She has a Cable show about alien/psychic
phenomenon.) Keep the performer skills. Maybe separate, but keep them.

>>>Philosophy*
>>
>>Again. That's roleplaying but no player can stat 'my character has
just
>>created a new meanful philosophic statement because I rolled
successfully
>>against philosophy. GM, think about something like "I know that I
know
>>nothing"'
>
>Ah contrair.  Its easier to role-play a character who is dumber than
the
>player, but it is hard to role-play a character who is smarter.  

Amen. I frequently ask for rolls versus specific training/education
skills in order to give information to the player and for that matter
how much. I regularly use Philosophy as one of these rolls. Primarily,
it is an *enabling* roll. The best analysts I professionally
encountered were adet at figuring out the philosophy behind some
functionality. A successful Philosophy check would allow an Electronics
check to determine the function of that Thing on the alien globe
generator capacitor linkage. What was the design philosophy for its
existence. Obviously, you can stick to the literal definition of
Philosophy, but I have reasons for extensions.

>>>Research*
>>
>>Can you research something independ from a scientific discipline? As
far as
>>I know, no German university teach general research but you only
learn
>>researching together with all other knowledge of the specific
discipline.
>
>Since this is marked as a default skill.  I think it is for those who
have a
>strong Chemistry background to be able to research an astrophysics
problem.
>Chemistry isn't the right skill, but they learned their Research skill
from
>Chemistry class.

More generally, from the process of being educated. For instance, I
knew how to use the library before I went to college. (Which made
college easier)  New generations will know how to get information *on
line*. All a part of the education process. You do not need to be a
graduate student to do research. Ask that game store owner how he found
out about the taxes he would need to pay.

>
>I think this is a good first cut at the skills list.  If I had to cut 

I agree with the first cut. As Rob points out, referees will create
skills when there is no other way around it. The *legal* list is for
those who want to publish completely compatible products.

- --norm fenlason
kennesaw ga usa


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:38:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Stefan Aust's Comments Re: Skills List.

Hi all.  

In a recent digest, Stefan Aust wrote:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Character types supported include:
>
>Army, Navy, Marine, Scout, Merchant,
>Noble, Performer, Scholar, Agent, Rogue.

Doesn't people from university go for adventure? What's about Scientists,
Engineers or Doctors? Or should Scholar be a collective category for them?
But why didn't you then also summarize Army, Navy and Marine to (for
example) Soldier?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I think the idea here is that military types are more likely to 
adventure, so they can be differentiated more.  Also, in terms of 
designing character generation systems, it's easier to group scholarly 
disciplines than military ones (in my experience, which is fairly extensive).


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Consolidated Skill List (* indicates Default Skills [see below])

To justify my following critics I'd like to say that if I've made no
comment, I agree with that skill. The game should have about 50-60 skills,
but not more. Perhaps you should drop one or two skills to lower the number.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

To me, the number of skill is unimportant.  There can be hundreds for all 
I care.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Archery*

The use of archaic missle or throwing weapons a default skill? I don't think
so.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I agree with this comment.  Someone who's never been trained to use a bow 
should definately get the -5 DM for unskilled use when using one (or 
whatever MMT's replacement will be for this).  This is also true of 
several other skills listed as "default".  I would suggest looking this 
over again.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Armorer

Building armor on your own? I would drop this skill in favor of some more
important skil.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

This is an extremely important skill for primitive types, so I would not 
drop it.  However, I would subsume it into craftsman (see below).


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Craftsman

What does a craftsman craft? A baker? a bricklayer? A goldsmith? I would
drop it.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I would not drop it, but make it a cascade skill with specializations 
allowed.  This again is important for primitives (usually NPCs, but they 
gotta have skills too).


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Environment Combat*

I'd count special training to the corresponding weapon skill and drop this.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I think this should be a cascade skill too.  Including such things as ZG 
and Hi-G combat.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Equestrian*

Does this skill also include normal riding (for me, it's a somewhat unusual
term I had to look up)? Why not call it simple Riding?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Because "Riding" is not the correct term.  Anyone can ride on something 
being controlled by another.  Equestrian is the skill of controlling a horse.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Fencing

A special skill? Why not included in Blade weapon?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I think you may be confused here (or I may be also :-), but I think this 
is referring to the skill of putting stolen goods out on the blackmarket 
(also called fencing).


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Forward Observer

I never understand what's the roleplaying use of that skill. As a general
rule, I would try to distinguish between occupation (or role) skills and
activity skills (more general). To be a forward observer is an occupation
(IMHO) but to be that, you have to be trained in communication, stealth and
to keep cool.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

FO is the skill of calling in artillery fire or orbital artillery fire. 
You seem to think it is the skill of "scouting" or something, which has
been covered in CT/MT as Recon.  If you've ever watched a movie about Viet
Nam, they're always calling in strikes from aircraft and artillery.  That
is what FO is for.  I agree with someone else's comment that this would be
a TL 5-9 skill, after which it would become rare (though it's always nice
to be able to go manual when your fancy electronic FO computer breaks
down). 


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Gunnery
>Heavy Weapons*
What's the difference between these two skills? Isn't a cannon a heavy 
weapon?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Gunnery is for space combat, and refers to use of turreted lasers and 
plasma weapons.  Heavy Weapons are things like squad support weapons 
(MG's, LAW rockets, etc.), and are generally portable or semi-portable.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Jack of All Trades

I would drop this skill because experience with old Traveller has show that
this 'Mac Guyver'-like skill causes lot's of problems because it's too
advantagerous.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I love this skill!  Please don't drop it, but _do_ clearly delineate how 
it is to be used.  I've always made it that a character with JOT can 
"expand" his skills into related areas.  e.g., you have mechanics-3 and 
jot-1, you can handle electronics-0.  If you have jot-2, I'll let you get 
away with engineering-0 and computers-0.  And so on.  In Shadowrun, they 
have a "skill web" and I've always meant to make one for Trav.  It would 
formalize the system I outlined above.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Melee (Armed)*

That's the difference to blade weapon? (What I'd like to say: think about
building more general skills where blade weapons are a special case)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I agree with this.  Isn't this brawling and/or blade?  Perhaps blade 
should be dropped and Melee be the replacement, including clubs and 
hammers and such things which are not "blades".


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Performance (Art)
>Performance (Dance)
>Performance (Drama)
>Performance (Music)
>Performance (Writing)

Nice, but very unimportant for roleplaying in the Traveller millieu, IMHO.
Drop.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Sorry, Stefan, but I completely disagree with you here.  They may not 
have been important in your games, but I've had to invent them myself for 
my campaigns.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Philosophy*

Again. That's roleplaying but no player can stat 'my character has just
created a new meanful philosophic statement because I rolled successfully
against philosophy. GM, think about something like "I know that I know
nothing"'
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

This is simply meant to imply that the character has knowledge about 
philosophy and can write and comprehend papers on the topic.  Try reading 
a high-level philosophy paper (or even a mid-level one) and tell me then 
that this isn't a skill.  You could just as easily say that any academic 
discipline should not be given a skill (e.g. history, political science, 
etc.).  All of these are areas of knowledge, and make useful skills.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Psionicology (an academic endeavor)

Oh, that's a real improvement. Good.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Yup, I like this too.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Research*

Can you research something independ from a scientific discipline? As far as
I know, no German university teach general research but you only learn
researching together with all other knowledge of the specific discipline.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

You can research something independent of a discipline.  Many Canadian 
univesities have degrees in "Information Sciences" that relate directly 
to this skill.  It is the ability to search and organize information 
meaningfully.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>Surface Vehicle*

Including boats that swim on the water's surface? :-) (What's about Ground
vehicle?)
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

This should definately be a cascade skill.


>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Btw, will the basic rules book also cover alien races? Does they have
special skills which have to be considered?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

I don't think it should cover alien races.  I would like to see (as much
as possible) the rules be relatively free from the background so that
people can use it for non-Imperium non-Standard sorts of campaigns. 
Alien skills will presumably be covered in Alien Archives.


Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 6 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 061

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Who are the Syleans?
         2. Imperial Map
         3. Which list should Marc Miller post to?
         4. T4 Character Types
         5. OCC
         6. T4 Guns
         7. T4 Vehicles (Imperial)
         8. Re: T4 Character Types
         9. Re: Draft Skill List
        10. Re: Draft skills list
        11. Re: T4 Character Types
        12. Re: Draft Skill List
        13. Re: T4 Vehicles (Imperial)
        14. Re: Draft Skill List
        15. Re: Spacecraft Design
        16. Re: Draft Skill List

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:41:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Who are the Syleans?

As far as I know, they are a Vilani/Solomani mix.  

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:43:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Imperial Map

There was a a supplement for CT called "Atlas of the Imperium" which 
contained maps of all Imperial sectors, but it didn't have UPPs (to allow 
the refs some flexibility, I presume).  I don't have copy.  There was 
supposed to be a follow up with UPPs I think, but it never came out.  Can 
anyone confirm/correct this?

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:45:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Which list should Marc Miller post to?

Mr. Miller.  Please continue to post to both lists.  We are used to cross
posting (though we don't particularly love it), and I think it would be
unfair to leave those individuals who are only on the xboat list out of
things. 

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:52:25 -0400
Subject: T4 Character Types

The Agent Type:

Secret Agent. Imperial Agent. Law Enforcement Agent. Insurance Agent?



------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:52:31 -0400
Subject: OCC

Office of Calendar Compliance
Bureau of Standards
Imperial Ministry of Trade

As the Imperium expands its territory and brings more and more systems into
the community of worlds, the Imperial Ministry of Trade is charged with the
responsibility of regulating trade and commerce: to promote economic
expansion as well as to reduce or eliminate fraud or deception.
The Bureau of Standards administers a wide variety of standards and
specifications and disseminates this information as an educational effort to
all of the members of the Imperium. Typical standards which are promulgated
include the metric system of measurement, statistical standards used in
quality control, and specifications for packaging, safety, and convenience.
The Office of Calendar Compliance is considered a sinecure: a cushy job
inspecting member world compliance with the standard Imperial calendar.
Working out of a suburban office complex, the OCC sends its inspectors on
annual inspection tours in which they visit the Imperium’s worlds, promoting
the convenience and logic of the Imperial Calendar. They hold instructional
seminars, meet with educators and legislators, inspect textbooks and computer
systems, and generally gauge compliance with the Imperial standard. The
office also publishes an interesting pamphlet about the Imperial Calendar and
an annual report to the Moot documenting the state of Calendar compliance
within the Imperium.
The employees of the OCC must have a variety of talents: they are called upon
to speak in public, negotiate compliance agreements, and generally get along
with people.

Agents of the OCC travel on ITRs (Imperial Travel Requisitions; they can
travel on scheduled liners or charter ships as necessary) in order to reached
their scheduled destinations. They can call on any local or Imperial forces
for assistance in order to inspect existing records or documents. Their
authority to inspect is guaranteed by the documents which establish
individual world membership in the Imperium. Since the authority of the
Imperium itself generally ends at the edge of space, OCC agents are virtually
the only agents with authority in peace-time to visit, inspect, and enforce
on world surfaces.
Are they ever co-opted by the Minister of Trade to achieve clandestine
missions?
Are they trained? In what? Are people temporarily assigned to OCC?




------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:52:38 -0400
Subject: T4 Guns

Guns in Traveller need to reflect a science-fiction feel as opposed to a
concentration on weapons you can buy at the store today. 
Ammunition. I fully agree with Greg Porter’s proposal that the source of
damage be ammunition rather than the gun. Ammunition should be classified in
round millimeter calibers (i.e. 5mm, 9mm, 18mm). In addition, adjectives can
tell us it is trank, explosive, etc.
Weapon Nomenclature. There is a standard weapon model designation system used
by the Imperium and based on the Imperial calendar. For example, P indicates
Pistol: P017 is the Imperial Pistol model adopted in the year 17. People
probably call this pistol a P17 (they may also call it by a nickname like
Esseye).
We also want to have names for guns that are not the standard words we
typically hear. Instead I want to see names that reflect the future and a
different culture.
On the other hand, we will see illustrations and representations of typical
or conventional guns, and there has to be an explanation for them. That
explanation is that there are many alternate cultures around the Imperium,
and they are also the source of weapons.
Older Weapons. Typically, earlier technology weapons have been traced images
of real guns (like a Springfield Musket, or an aquebus). Instead, we specify
some characteristics and then define the gun without reference to a
historical photo or drawing and get it drawn.
Accessories: Laser spots. Optical sights (unit and telescopic). Stabilized
stock. Silencer.
I’d like to see the following basic personal guns (and an increased emphasis
on non-lethals for a larger proportion of conflict resolution) in the basic
edition (we’re not talking about military crew-served or explosive-type
weapons).
 
Civilian Weapons
Body Pistol. Flat plastic pistol. Passes through metal detectors. Fume proof
to avoid sniffers. Flat self contained chamber bar ratchets up (used portions
can be broken off after a battle). 6 rounds. Ceramic bullets. Entirely hand
operated (not semi-auto).
Snub. Fires a 4 or 5 mm cartridge; odd number of rounds (like 11 or 13),
rotation of the cylinder skips a cylinder (mechanical reasons). Hi velocity
rounds.
Magnum Revolver. Larger caliber round: 9mm 10mm, 11mm. Can be downloaded for
on ship use. Various cartridges: shot. Trank. Explosive.
Self Defender. Commercial mass market. 20-round 4mm. Rounds constructed to
shatter rather than penetrate walls/ partitions. Issues cloud of invisible
dye to mark all participants for later police reports. Radio frequency
screamer comes on when fired (credit: John Barnes)
Staplegun. A basic user-friendly pistol.
BullPup. Plastic stocked 5mm rifle. Semi-auto with burst mode. Pump forend to
operate the action. Magazine inserts in buttstock; 50 rounds. This is
essentially the non-military standard issue rifle. You find it in the mechant
and scout ship’s lockers.
BullPup Shotgun. Shotgun version of Bullpup. Same weapon, but fires
shotshells (maybe 18mm bore) or flechettes.
Hunting Rifle. For big-game hunting. Twin superposed barrels… upper is
spotting rifle small bore (4-5 mm) with semi-auto feed; lower is 18mm
explosive rocket with radio frequency seeker head for big game.

Alternative Weapons (Statistically Non Lethal)
Many of these work best in close quarters (on starships or in buildings).
Zapper. Handset with 10-self contained cartridges… each with a pronged barb
set, cable, and thermal battery. Trigger controls firing and turns the
electric on and off.
Fogger. Releases a cloud of opaque gas (perhaps room sized cloud). Options:
anesthetic, flame damp, pepper gas, poison gas.
Slapper. Fires high density plastic bullet (10mm) which expands 10x to "slap"
the target.
Flasher. Add on to most shoulder weapons. Flashes high-intensity white
(colored) light to distract / disorient the target.
Screamer. Puts out a disorienting loud scream (several options available).
Hand-held device (looks like a phaser). 
 
Military Weapons
Esseye. Standard Issue Semi-Automatic Pistol. The basic pistol people in the
military carry (like the 45 Auto of several years ago). There will be basic
differences between models issued to the scouts, navy, army, marines, etc.
Fusil. A standard military rifle carried by infantry troops. Of conventional
design, it is the equivalent of the M16 or the AK-47 (at the appropriate
technology level).
Carbine. A short version of the Fusil (and based on that pattern). For
officers and rear-echelon troops.
Sniper. A super accurate version of the Fusil (and also based on that
pattern). 

Letter Codes Personal Weapons
	C	Carbine
	F	Fusil
	P	Pistol
	R	Revolver
	S	Shotgun
	Q	Non-Lethal


------------------------------

From: FarFuture@aol.com
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:52:40 -0400
Subject: T4 Vehicles (Imperial)

Imperial Vehicles. The following vehicles are a fair sampling of what we can
expect to find in operation within and around the Imperium. These are the
standard vehicles based on official Imperial plans or templates. Limited
variances to these designs are tolerated to allow local manufacture.
All Imperial vehicles operate using fusion plus as a power source. They can
operate on airless worlds. Unless specifically stated, the interior of the
vehicle is not sealed for airless worlds, and occupants would need to wear
vacc suits.
 
Surface Vehicles

Motorcycle
4 wheel rider (1 person)
Utility vehicle (4 person)
Utility vehicle (6 person)
Truck 2 ton
Truck 5 ton
Truck 10 ton
ATV Wheeled
ATV Wheeled
Tank Light Tracked
Tank Medium Tracked
Tank Heavy Tracked
Tank Very Heavy Tracked
ATV Legged
Troop Carrier Squad
Troop Carrier 2 Squad
Prime Mover Tracked
Prime Mover Wheeled
Recovery Wheeled
Recovery Tracked
Command Wheeled
Command Tracked
Car / Sedan
Car / Limosine

Ski / Snow Variants
Sealed Environment Variants
Flotation Kits

Trailer Wheeled
Trailer Tracked

Grav Vehicles are technically aircraft.


Aircraft

Grav Tank Light
Grav Tank Medium
Grav Tank Heavy
Grav Troop Carrier Squad
Grav Troop Carrier 2 Squad
Grav Prime Mover
Grav Cargo Carrier 2 Ton
Grav Cargo Carrier 5 ton
Grav Cargo Carrier 10 ton
Grav Rider 1 person
Grav Speeder
Grav Defense Platform (Fighter)

Gtrailer

Modules for placement on 
Prime Mover, Cargo Carrier, or Gtrailer

Artillery
Rocket Launcher (Multi)
Missile Launcher (Scud)
Air Defense
Sensor
Portable Quarters
Command Post

Aircraft (various sizes)

(to be determined)



------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:10:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Character Types

> Secret Agent. Imperial Agent. Law Enforcement Agent. Insurance Agent?

Don't forget Agent Orange, and of course . . .


      Travel Agent

Rob
- -- 
Rob Miracle
rwm@mpgn.com
for webmaster@mpgn.com

------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 18:22:39 +0200
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List

>        Well, despite all the Politically Correct "let's get rid of violence
>in roleplaying games" some people *like* military adventures. Doesn't mean
>they're going to hole up on a farm in Montana or anything; it's simply
exciting.

...Dave said. I had absolutely no intention to tell other people how to
game. Without a good fight, roleplaying becomes boring, IMHO. But sometimes,
it also can be more challenging to solve a problem without combat. My
overall oppinion is only, that a gaming system should be open for any
direction and not overemphasis military (or non-military) actions. In my
mail, I questioned whether the skill "forward observer" is a very useful one
or if it should be dropped in favor for other skills.

I'm a military layman with only some very theoretically knowledge from books
and movies. You showed that the job of a forward observer isn't a trivial
one. But to justify a skill, there should be more.

I imagine a f.o. as follows: Private Dan (the f.o.) is watching the
advancing enemy with his infrared binoculars. "Donald to Mother Duck" (they
always use this kind of silly abbreviations :-) he whispers in his com
radio. Defense fire welcomes the enemy. The other soldiers drop into the
dirt and answer the fire. "We need some help here, Zetas at region
delta-three." "Here's Mother Duck. Hold on for fifty seconds. We're going to
order some HELL fire." "Understud." Somewhere at the orbital command center,
somebody presses some buttons, some computers go working and attack
sattellite TH-93 send its deadly HELL-missiles to the ground, varporising
everything of sector D3.

No need for a skill roll, that least at my abstraction level of play.

Perhaps one should try to come up with three common situation (scenarios)
for every skill that should be included into the rules to proof its
usefulness. The scenarios should cover a wider range of situations.

For example: Astrogration:

1. Calculate jump destination (routine, if computer works, otherwise impossible)
   for own ship or of escaping ship based on current sensor (another skill)
data 
   to plot a similar course to follow it (at least difficult).
2. Determine current position to proof correct jump (routine) or after misjump
   (difficult because of sensors still suffer from jump-field anomalies).
3. Plan a rendevouz between two ships (normal)

I hope you know what I mean.

>        Keeping cool applies to just about everything.

No doubt about this :-)

bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:52:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Draft skills list

Hi.  Here is my suggestion for how to modify the draft skills list.  I 
like the character types supported, though it would be nice to have some 
way of generating "primitive" NPCs and such.  I've heard there will be a 
way to "design" characters instead of rolling them.  Maybe this would 
fill that role?

NEW Consolidated Skill List

D indicates default skill, all characters have this at level-0 at the 
GM's option ("primitive" characters will not have some of these, but will 
have others that moderns won't have).

G indicates grouped skill, from which one "specialty" must be chosen, 
with all other members of the skill group being level-nil (level-0 at 
GM's option).

C indicates cascade skill, from which one "specialty" must be chosen, with 
all other members of skill group being at 1/2 level (level-0 if specialty 
is at level-1).


Administration	D
Aircraft 	G	(Copter, Prop, Jet, Lighter-Than-Air)
Archeology (one of many "Majors" for the Scholar character type).
Archery		not default.
	Armorer has been removed and placed with craftman.
Astrogration
Athletics	C	(Choose running, swimming, climbing, or a sport)
Battle Dress
Biology
Blade Weapons	DC	(Choose short blade, long blade, short club, long club)
Brawling 	D
Bribery		not default, you should get a negative DM if untrained.
Broker		not default, you should get a negative DM if untrained.
Camouflage	D
Carousing	D
Chemistry
Commo		D
Computer	D
Craftsman  	G	(Choose from Armorer, Woodworker, Leatherworker, etc.)
Demolitions
Diplomacy	D
Disguise	D
Electronics
Engineering
Enviro Combat	C	(Choose from Lo-g or Hi-g).
Equestrian	not default.  
[perhaps this should simply be placed under vehicle as one of the options.]

Fast Talk	D
Fencing		
[I'm assuming this refers to the underworld skill, and not blade combat]

Field Artillery
First Aid	D? (very high levels become EMT)
Forensics
Forgery		not default.
Forward Obs.
Gambling
GEOLOGY has been added, and there should be a note that players/GMs may 
make up new majors

Grav Craft	D
Gravitics
Gun Combat	C (pistol D, rifle D, SMG not D, MG not D, etc.)
Gunnery		C (lasers, missiles, etc.)
Heavy Weapons	not default.
History
Instruction	D
Interrogation	D
Intimidation	D
Intrusion	D
Investigation	D
Jack-o-T	
Language 	G (choose from any number of lingos).
Law
Leadership	D?
Linguistics
Mechanics
Medical
	Melee has been removed and is assumed to be under brawling or blade.
Navigation	not default.
Perception	D
Performance	G (choose from painting, music, art, writing, etc.)
Philosophy	not default. pop-philosophy is default.
Physics
Pilot
Psionicology		cool!
Psychology	not default. pop-psychology is default.
Recon		D
Research	D
Robotics
Sensors
Ships Boat
Stealth		D
Steward
Streetwise	not default.
Surface Vehicle	C (choose from, car, motorcylce, AFV, etc.)
Survey
Survival	D
Tactics		C (choose from Land Combat, Space Combat, etc.)
Throwing	D
Trader		D
Vacc Suit	D
Watercraft	D 

Default Skills:  Characters can always try something requiring any skill, 
except where otherwise noted in special cases.  When trying a skill which 
is not default, they get a severe negative DM (or something similar).

Comments, criticisms, flames? (<-- in order of preference :-)

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>



------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 13:35:32 PDT
Subject: Re: T4 Character Types

>The Agent Type:
>
>Secret Agent. Imperial Agent. Law Enforcement Agent. Insurance Agent?
>
>
Don't forget:  Real Estate Agent, Talent Agent, and Reacting Agent.

------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 13:44:49 PDT
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List

...
>I'm a military layman with only some very theoretically knowledge from
books
>and movies. You showed that the job of a forward observer isn't a
trivial
>one. But to justify a skill, there should be more.
>
>I imagine a f.o. as follows: Private Dan (the f.o.) is watching the
>advancing enemy with his infrared binoculars. "Donald to Mother Duck"
(they
>always use this kind of silly abbreviations :-) he whispers in his com
>radio. Defense fire welcomes the enemy. The other soldiers drop into
the
>dirt and answer the fire. "We need some help here, Zetas at region
>delta-three." "Here's Mother Duck. Hold on for fifty seconds. We're
going to
>order some HELL fire." "Understud." Somewhere at the orbital command
center,
>somebody presses some buttons, some computers go working and attack
>sattellite TH-93 send its deadly HELL-missiles to the ground,
varporising
>everything of sector D3.
>
>No need for a skill roll, that least at my abstraction level of play.

It is the FO's responsibility to keep the HELL fire in sector three. If
the FO can see the enemy with binoculars, he may be subject to the fire
he is calling in. Ever see Hamburger Hill? where an inexperienced
officer called an artillery strike onto his own position by mistake? He
missed his skill roll. This mistake is more common than admitted in
combats.

People look like ants on the ground. Which ones are ours and which are
theirs. FO: "I'll make it easy for you. The ones reflecting laser
designators are the bad guys. And forget the ones over in sector three,
they are decoys."

No, I think that the FO skill is still important to the game. I don't
run many military scenarios, but making a skill check for the FO skill
lends some excitement to the game. Fail it and you kill youself or they
do.

- --norm fenlason


------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 14:16:14 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 Vehicles (Imperial)

At 11:52 AM 6/6/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Imperial Vehicles.
>Car / Sedan
>Car / Limosine

Car / Coupe or Sports Car  -- Humans have Egos and the need for speed.

>Grav Rider 1 person
>Grav Speeder

Personal Grav Vehicles should mirror Personal Surface Vehicles.

Grav Coupe
Grav Sedan
Grav Limosine
Grav Mini-Van (ok so I am getting carried away)
Grav Bus etc.


>Aircraft (various sizes)

While we are at it :-)

Personal
- --------
Ultra-Light Fixed Wing
Ultra-Ligth Rotary Wing
Small Prop Fixed Wing
Large Prop Fixed Wing
Small Jet Fixed Wing
Small Rotary Wing
Large Rotary Wing

Commerical
- ----------
Large Cargo Prop Fixed Wing
Large Passanger Prop Fixed Wing
Large Cargo Jet Fixed Wing
Large Passanger Jet Fixed Wing

Military
- --------
Passanger Rotary Wing
Combat Rotary Wing
STOL Jet Fixed Wing
Fighter Jet Fixed Wing
Bomber Jet Fixed Wing
Cargo Jet Fixed Wing
Passanger Jet Fixed Wing

With gravitics, there is less distintion in military roles.  A Grav Tank
could turn out to replace a Helicopter Gunship.  Combat kinda takes a bit of a different shape, when you are no longer constricted to the ground.

The roles of the vehicles will not change drastically in post-modern warfare.  You will still need ground support (a grav based replacement for Apache and Harrier), close air support, air superiority, tactical and strategic bombing.
You will need troop carriers (mass, airborne, insertion (blackhawk)).  You will need to move cargo.  Tankers wont be necessary once fusion plants start powering everything.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle
TanSoft.com
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 14:22:17 -0400
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List

At 06:22 PM 6/6/96 +0200, you wrote:
>Perhaps one should try to come up with three common situation (scenarios)
>for every skill that should be included into the rules to proof its
>usefulness. The scenarios should cover a wider range of situations.
>
Forward Observer
1.  Operate Field Battle Computer/Target Designation Hardware (Specialized Equipment)

2.  Detect and Determine best target for indirect fire while trying to
    avoid colateral damange.

3.  Calculate range, elevation, and wind drift for indirect fire.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle
TanSoft.com
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 12:42:32 -0600
Subject: Re: Spacecraft Design

At 07:39 am 6/6/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Just because the bulk of the players on this list want what you want doesn't
>mean that that's what the general public will buy enough of to support Trav.
>In fact, from what happened with TNE, there's evidence of the opposite. Trav.
>is supposed to an RPG, first & foremost, not a wargame or miniatures or gear-

        But "Striker" was a very popular supplement to CT?

>head exerciser. I believe that TNE was way too complex to bring in the general
>public. It's the same thing that happened to wargames more than 15 years ago.
>There were warnings then, in S&T esp., but the hobby just kept on adding more
>complexity until it became a niche. I applaud IG for recognizing this and tak-
>ing steps to put Trav. back where it can once again appeal to a wide audience.

        We're not saying keep it complex to keep people out. We're saying
keep the complex option in for those who want it, and provide a simple
option for those who don't. ***THAT'S how you appeal to a wider audience.***
After all, the complex people plus the simple people is a wider audience
than the simple people.

        The other half of the argument was that the simple option and the
complex option have to be compatible with one another, so you can move back
and forth between them as you want, to whatever level of complexity suits
you. That's the idea behind FF&S Light.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 13:06:02 -0600
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List

At 06:22 pm 6/6/96 +0200, Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de> wrote:
>I'm a military layman with only some very theoretically knowledge from books
>and movies. You showed that the job of a forward observer isn't a trivial
>one. But to justify a skill, there should be more.
>
>I imagine a f.o. as follows: Private Dan (the f.o.) is watching the
>advancing enemy with his infrared binoculars. "Donald to Mother Duck" (they
>always use this kind of silly abbreviations :-) he whispers in his com
>radio. Defense fire welcomes the enemy. The other soldiers drop into the
>dirt and answer the fire. "We need some help here, Zetas at region
>delta-three." "Here's Mother Duck. Hold on for fifty seconds. We're going to
>order some HELL fire." "Understud." Somewhere at the orbital command center,
>somebody presses some buttons, some computers go working and attack
>sattellite TH-93 send its deadly HELL-missiles to the ground, varporising
>everything of sector D3.

        There's a _lot_ more to it than that, regardless of TL. You've got
to tell the firing unit where to hit, what to use, what *not* to hit (like
the innocent civilians next door, or the friendlies being attacked). Then
the firing unit fires. Until higher TLs, chances are they may not hit the
target. So you have to know enough about the weapon's performance that you
can figure out how the firing unit, x kilometers way, has to adjust its aim
point. Then they fire again, you correct again. Meanwhile, you may have a
moving target, friendlies are moving too ... it's not something any joe can
just walk up and do.

        Not that I'm saying you need to role-play the entire interaction ...
then *you* would need the specialized knowledge. That's the purpose of
skills -- they show what specialized knowledge the *character* has, that you
can then simulate ("Ok, the Kinunir fires her weapons. The roll is a 6,
modified by your skill ... they hit about 10m northwest of the aimpoint.")
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #61
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 6 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 062

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. More thoughts on Draft Skills.
         2. Info Request: Digest Numbers
         3. Re: T4 Character Types
         4. Re: T4 Vehicles (Imperial)
         5. Re: MMT Vehicles.
         6. Armourer as a skill
         7. Re: Imperium Map
         8. HOT! UPDATED DESIGNS REQUEST
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #58
        10. Re: Barstool Science?
        11. Re: Laser Canon (get it?)
        12. Re: Armourer as a skill
        13. Re: survey
        14. Aliens in T4
        15. Re: Skills
        16. Re: T4 Guns

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:07:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: More thoughts on Draft Skills.

Hi all.  A few semi-random thoughts on careers and skills.

	I would like to second (third?) the vote for a Belter class.  It
can be part of merchant or something, but I would definately like to see
it included.  This would require some sort of prospecting skill (though I
guess this is just a combo of geology and sensor skills).  I was never so 
hot on the Hunter class.  
	I was also thinking that "Agent" might be expanded into something 
broader like "Security Forces", and include police, spies, private eyes, 
etc.  

Survey skill:  what is this skill for?  I'm not saying it should be 
dumped, I just want a description of what it's good for.

Recon:  same as above.

Liaison skill:  someone said this had something to do with orbital 
artillery.  I'm pretty certain this was an error. It's more of a 
"Diplomacy" skill.

Equestrian:  In retrospect, I think this should be renamed.  It does 
imply horses only (what about Ton-Tons and Tarsus Nobbles?).  Riding is 
not a great substitute, but it would do.  I was thinking that maybe 
"Ground Vehicle" or "Surface Vehicle" could include "riding animal" as an 
option.

	As a more general comment, I like the way MT handled skills.  I 
like the idea of groups of skills, and categories like "Inate" which 
contained streetwise, leader, etc. that you could choose from.  This 
helped in directing character generation.

Comments? Criticism? Flames? (<--in order of preference :-)

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:09:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Info Request: Digest Numbers

Hi.  I've not been keeping up with my digests.  Could somebody please 
tell me which digest contained the original "Foundation of Traveller" 
post by Marc Miller?  

Charles.



------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:08:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Character Types

On Thu, 6 Jun 1996 normf@wegener.com wrote:

> >The Agent Type:
> >
> >Secret Agent. Imperial Agent. Law Enforcement Agent. Insurance Agent?
> >
> >
> Don't forget:  Real Estate Agent, Talent Agent, and Reacting Agent.
> 
> 


And finally, for those of you crippled with Windoze 95, the ubiquitous
system agent.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 15:33:43 PDT
Subject: Re: T4 Vehicles (Imperial)

Rob writes [snipped]
...
>>Aircraft (various sizes)
>
>While we are at it :-)
>
>Personal
>--------
>Ultra-Light Fixed Wing
>Ultra-Ligth Rotary Wing
>Small Prop Fixed Wing
>Large Prop Fixed Wing
>Small Jet Fixed Wing
>Small Rotary Wing
>Large Rotary Wing
>
>Commerical
>----------
>Large Cargo Prop Fixed Wing
>Large Passanger Prop Fixed Wing
>Large Cargo Jet Fixed Wing
>Large Passanger Jet Fixed Wing
>
>Military
>--------
>Passanger Rotary Wing
>Combat Rotary Wing
>STOL Jet Fixed Wing
>Fighter Jet Fixed Wing
>Bomber Jet Fixed Wing
>Cargo Jet Fixed Wing
>Passanger Jet Fixed Wing

Did I miss Hovercraft, light, medium, and heavy; and Tilt Rotor medium
and heavy (no light). Would you consider these grouped with other
types?

This assumes technology development in line with out rather dense
atmosphere. What about rocket propulsion for aircraft. German's did in
WWII. We (humans) have better ways because our atmosphere burns.

Wait a minute, I'm stumbling into FF&S territory here. Changing lists.

- --norm fenlason




------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:53:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: MMT Vehicles.

Hi all.  A couple no-one's brought up yet:

Grav-cycle:  This is way too cool to leave out!  If grav-rider 1 person is 
meant to be this, then I suggest a change of name.  "Grav cycle" sounds 
better (IMHO).

Submersibles:  small, medium, large.

Lighter-Than-Air Craft: small, med, large  (yes, they're sort of dippy, but 
I think they're neat!)

Charles.


------------------------------

From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:08:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Armourer as a skill

The ability to build and repair both Armour and Weapons is usually
considered one skill, did I miss Gunsmithing, if I did then they are treated
seperately.  Even so, the ability to repair armour becomes VERY important
when armour becomes more than just a vest of cloth (ballistic) and is
powered or has ceramic plates, or needs to be adjusted to fit a new wearer,
or needs the commo/battle comp/other misc electronics device installed/repaired
DCB
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Tom Opgenorth <topgenor@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:11:19 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Imperium Map

Yes, there was a product call Atlas of the Imperium, I have it somewhere 
in the depths of my old CT stuff.  If I remember correctly, it doesn't 
show you the UPP of sytems, just where they are.

===========================================================================
Tom Opgenorth                               topgenor@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca
Edmonton, Alberta,Canada                 http://www.worldgate.com/~topgenor
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manubay's Laws For Programmers:
  1.  If a programmer's modification of an existing program works, it's
      probably not what the users want.
  2.  User don't know what they really want, but they know for certain what 
      they don't want.
===========================================================================


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 14:49:11 -0600
Subject: HOT! UPDATED DESIGNS REQUEST

        If you'd like something to do, and you enjoy using FF&S, here's how
you can help. I need some things designed for FF&S Light, and I'm running
out of time (deadline to Imperium Games was Friday, midnight).
        All designs should be straight stock FF&S except as noted.

        1) I need weapons designs -- TL8-15 concentrating on TL8-11,
standard turrets, bays or spinals with a short range of 5. Lasers should
observe TL*50 limit on DE. Missile launchers should be for the standard
7m^3-sized missiles, and BAYS should contain an integral MFD capable of
controlling the missiles, with a short range of 5. Please submit the design
worksheet with the weapon. List standard FF&S crews. I'll worry about
refiguring out crews if we go with Derek's proposal.

        2) Defense designs -- TL8-15 concentrating on TL8-11, short range 5.
Again, please submit the design worksheet. List standard FF&S crews.

        4) Small craft facilities -- Internal hangers, launch tubes and
grapples. Small craft sizes 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90. Ditto
the worksheet.

        5) Fuel purification plant designs -- TL8-15 concentrating on
TL8-11, designed to handle 700, 1400 and 2800 m^3 of fuel per 6 hours. Ditto
crews and worksheets.

        6) Power plant designs -- TL8-15 concentrating on TL8-11, nuclear
power and fuel cells. For fusion plants below TL12, the minimum size is 10
times the listed FF&S value. Ditto crews. 

        After looking at the 3,000Td Midu Agashaam, which requires about
10,000MW, and the 10Td launch, which requires 14MW, I think good values to
on which concentrate would be        5, 25, 50, 75, 100, 250, 500, 750,
1000, 2500, and 5000MW

        For the working draft, I'll generate the table for TL12 Fusion.

Wherever it's appropriate I'd like the original worksheets as well. By
appropriate, I mean the design was more complicated than "1000MW pp, at
2MW/m^3 that's 500m^3" -- weapons and the like.

        Please either post them to the GDW Beta List (gdw-beta@qrc.com), or
email them directly to myself _and_ Wildstar@qrc.com for his QSDS.

IF AT ALL POSSIBLE:
        I would humbly ask that you put your donation in the form of an HTML
table; not only am I using the Web to draft this, I'll import the HTML files
straight into Word to send to IG. I'm really running behind here, so the
less time I spend on formatting the better. But if that's not possible,
still send something in!

        Making a table is really easy. Here's how:
        1) Start the table with "<table border=1>"
        2) Start each row with "<tr valign=bottom align=right>" -- that
aligns the bottom of the text in multiline boxes with the bottom of the box,
and puts everything flush right. I can fix those few that don't need to be
flush right later.
        3) Start each data item in the row with "<td>" and end them with "</td>"
        4) End each row with "</tr>"
        5) End the table with "</table>"

Here's an example:

   <table border=1>

   <tr>
      <td>TL</td>
      <td>Power</td>
      <td>Volume</td>
   </tr>

   <tr>
      <td>12</td>
      <td>1,500</td>
      <td>750</td>
   </tr>

   </table>

This would look like this:

  +----+--------+--------+
  | TL | Power  | Volume |
  +----+--------+--------+
  | 12 | 1,500  |    750 |
  +----+--------+--------+

- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 96 22:05 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #58

In-Reply-To: <199606060648.CAA18876@NS.MPGN.COM>

In message , owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM said:
> From: anders.backman@macademic.se (Anders Backman) Date: Tue, 7 May 1996
> 16:24:44 +0200 Subject: Re: Velocity limits!
>  
> SDB can go as fast as they like but they use fusion drives because
> thrusterplates show up too much on gravscanners.

...whereas fusion drives show up like a sore thumb on P-EMS.

> From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
> Date: 5 Jun 96 11:30:12 MS Subject: Heat Death of the Universe
>  
> I picture the Heat Death of the Universe mileu sourcebook as a softcover
> book  with a glossy gray cover, and neutral gray pages inside.  The page
> numbers  (also in gray) are all zero.  In the back of the book is a pop-out
> coin to be  used to decide the "Expanding Universe" vs "Collapsing
> Universe" argument.

Sounds too complicated for the non-gearheads...

> From: FarFuture@aol.com Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:30:32 -0400 Subject: Draft
> Skill List
>  
> Administration* Aircraft (choose from Copter, Prop Airplane, Jet Airplane)

Gliders? Lighter-than-air aircraft?

> Archeology (one of many "Majors" for the Scholar character type). Archery*
> Armorer Astrogration Athletics* Battle Dress Biology Blade Weapons* (choose
> from Short Blade*, Long Blade*) 

Botany

> Brawling (Unarmed)* 

Can we have Martial Arts too? They're *not* the same thing.

> Bribery* Broker*
> Camouflage* Carousing* Chemistry Commo* Computer* Craftsman Demolitions
> Diplomacy* Disguise* Electronics Engineering Environment Combat*
> Equestrian* Fast Talk* Fencing 

What's the difference between Blade (Long) and Fencing?

> Field Artillery First Aid* (very high levels
> become EMT) Forensics Forgery* Forward Observer Gambling Grav Craft*
> Gravitics Gun Combat* (choose from Handgun*, Rifle*, Shotgun*, SMG*)

Lasers? Fusion/Plasma?

> Gunnery Heavy Weapons* History Instruction* Interrogation* Intimidation*
> Intrusion* Investigation* Jack of All Trades Language (Specific) Law
> Leadership* Linguistics Mechanics Medical Melee (Armed)* Navigation*
> Perception* Performance (Art) Performance (Dance) Performance (Drama)
> Performance (Music) Performance (Writing) Philosophy* Physics Pilot
> Psionicology (an academic endeavor) Psychology* Recon* Research* Robotics
> Sensors Ship's Boat Stealth* Steward Streetwise* Surface Vehicle* Survey
> Survival* 

Swimming

> Tactics* 

(Ground, Ship, Fleet)

> Throwing* Trader* Vacc Suit* Watercraft*

Xenobiology


                      --------=====OOO=====--------
Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:34:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Barstool Science?

While summoning demons, Merrick Burkhardt (merrick@rt66.dom) chanted:

...in response to my own rambling, thusly:

> > The only 'medium' between planets is stark, empty space, which is 
> > notoriously difficult for anything, radial tires and repulsors included, 
> 
> Surely you jest?  Does WWU teach astrophysics?

Gee, I wouldn't know.  I'm a comp sci major...

[snip]

> Are you trying to look dumb?

Um, no.  I guess I thought that you were.  I took your comments to mean 
that what little there actually is in 'empty' space constituted a medium 
of sufficient density to push against for propulsion.  Oh, well...  Were 
you actually talking about using a repulsor to clear a path in front of a 
ship to avoid damage from micrometeorites and other such debris?  I know 
that several versions of the design rules (from HG or MT, onward) 
incorporated minimum hull thicknesses necessary to avoid damage from 
space debris, but this seems somewhat shortsighted given that even a 1G 
craft can achieve astounding velocities if given a long enough 
acceleration burn.  Since none of the extant ship design rules have 
ever incorporated 'navigational' repulsors (which currently don't appear 
until TL-16), and any space debris events are almost exclusively referee 
imposed (unless someone bricks their piloting roll during atmospheric 
entry or gas giant refuelling), I suppose that such events can remain in 
the realm of the many other hazards of interplanetary travel conveniently 
unemphasized.  I'd much rather continue to ignore space sandblasting on a 
routine basis than re-hack the repulsor design tables in order to further 
complicate the spacecraft operation and combat rules.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 14:35:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Laser Canon (get it?)

... and lo, Merrick Burkhardt (merrick@rt66.com) did say unto the masses:
(after Wes Payne said:)

> > A fusion/plasma gun becomes a C-PAW when it becomes something else 
> > entirely, namely a particle accelerator.  As I recall, particle 
> > accelerators have their own spot in the High Guard USP.  The whole USP 
> 
> I meant in real terms.  Plasma=ions with lots-o-velocity (high temp).
> CPAWs shoot high velocity ions.  You decide :-)

I prefer to use the explanations that have been used since High Guard all 
the way up to FF&S:

Plasma/Fusion Gun:  A device that injects matter into a containment field 
(magnetic or gravitic) or chamber, ignites it to a plasma state, lets it 
cook for a few microseconds (proceeding to actual fusion in a fusion gun) 
and then vents it towards the enemy (at about ten thousand meters/sec).

Particle Accelerator:  Accelerates particles (typically hydrogen nuclei) 
to relativistic speeds and fires them at the target, imparting thermal 
energy and not a little bit of radiation.

> > > > I'd love to have Traveller go back to HG as that was useful to the average
> > > > GM, FF&S was loved by gearheads but required too much work and the physics
> > > > behind it was mostly crap so it wasn't useful for my kind of gearheadedness
> 
> I didn't say this!  I was quoting it! 

I should have mentioned that.  Somebody else did, but since I couldn't 
figure out who or when, I addressed it while replying to you.  Sorry for 
the confusion.
 
> > Some sort of misconception has crept into the whole discussion, and I 
> > want to address it here:  Since when do complex design rules detract from 
> > the roleplaying experience?  Who the hell, during an actual gaming 
> 
> I've never even suggested this---I'm one of the FFS gearheads, rememmber
> :-)

I didn't mean to accuse you of doing so.  I was addressing the 
misconception in a general manner, without attributing it to anybody or, 
at least, that was my intent.
 
> > At first, I kinda chafed at the way TNE/FF&S treated lasers.  However, I 
> > read an article in one Challenge magazine (I forget which) in which the 
> > people who came up with that stuff explained their decisions for making 
> > the rules the way they did.  Even so, they bent a few rules of physics to 
> > come up with the rules for lasers which many people are decrying as too 
> > restrictive or revisionist when it comes to published material (can you 
> > say 'Gravitic Focussing?'  I knew you could).  I prefer rules for lasers 
> > (and space combat) which have a closer grounding to reality than some 
> > fanciful crap I've seen (I won't mention the other game systems) in the past.
> > Of course, if someone could cite an example where the new laser rules 
> > conflict with old, published Traveller history (Tales of Future Past?), I 
> > wouldn't mind.

> Sure, easy. Design a BB that fits canon.  I'll make a DD with a 150
> laser bay that'll chew it to pieces every time.  You'll never even hit
> me, I won't come into MG range.

Ahem.  I do believe that there is a bit in their about limiting maximum 
power output per laser, and this was done to prevent the scenario you 
describe (near as I can tell).  I actually had to get off of my lazy butt 
and get my references, darn you!

To make my case slightly easier, and not knowing off the top of my head 
what the proper tonnage for your average battleship is, I'm going to put 
it in the Very Large size category, which is 100,000 to 999,999 
displacement tons.
 
> This assumes you use the broken laser rules in FFS.  Using them you can
> make 800ROF lasers that can critical a battleship with an armor of 4000
> at 80 hexes---even if you don't let it shoot past 44hexes, it'll hit on
> a Difficult or easier task (don't have stuff here now) task at that range 
> due to ROF DMs.

First of all, Brilliant Lances does not allow any combat between ships 
beyond 44 hexes, assuming the target is no bigger than Gigantic (the 
largest size category) at TL-15.  Now, the difficulty modifiers:  +14 for 
absulute range (assuming you engage at exactly 44 hexes), -4 for target 
size (VL), for a base total of +10 (I'm not bothering with EMM, evasion, 
or other factors).  Presume a TL-15 MFD, so we can disregard six of 
those, and we're down to +4.  With a ROF of 800, we can disregard up to 
five more Diff Mods, so that puts us down to 0, with one to spare (in 
case the target is evading or has EMM, or some other such thing).  Keep 
in mind that higher ROF's can't actually make the firing task simpler 
than its base level which, given beam pointer technology, indicates that 
any to-hit beyond 40 hexes is an Impossible task (relevant asset/4).  
With a line crew, that means they can hit 3 times out of 20, or 15% of 
the time.  That's not great, but not bad, considering that we're talking 
about a distance over one and a quarter million kilometers.

Laser power output is limited to 50Mj per TL (no, I CAN'T cite the 
source!  I *know* I've seen it, though!  Can anyone who remembers where 
it is help me out?  I'm not making this up!).  At TL-15, this means we 
can't make lasers that push out more than 750 Mj, so lasers don't 
actually come much bigger than the barbettes on the Kinunir Colonial 
Cruiser.  At 750 Mj, maximum damage value is 69, and the penetration 
rating is 1/22 (rounding to nearest whole number, and taking reciprocal), 
which allows us to penetrate 1517 armor factors and inflict one point of 
damage.  Keep in mind, though, that the laser can do no higher than 69 
damage points (if someone were dim enough to build their battleship 
without a hull), which is good enough to do three minor damage, but won't 
even hurt a system rated in major damage boxes.  In fact, only ships less 
than 1000 tons will suffer an automatic critical hit each time they're 
hit by such a laser.  So, even if my batteship closes in order to use 
that meson gun, I'm not going to get my skin totally scorched off by 
those laser bays before I give you a traditional inside-out cooking with 
my meson gun.  Of course, I could exacerbate things by using 
sandcasters... (A TL-15 sandcaster blocks 2d10x50 damage points, making 
it possible to block one entire hit from the 750Mj laser with one canister)

> That breaks the history since we see that ships actually *use* other
> weapons?  why when a laser is always better?

Well, if I hallucinated that whole bit about the discharge energy limit, 
then your argument holds true, otherwise, historical canon is maintained.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------





------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 17:51:30 PDT
Subject: Re: Armourer as a skill

Regarding concerns of aving PCs with Armourer as a skil:

Let them make the armor. As a referee, make your own roll against their
skill. (If using TNE task system, the level a secret roll achieved
modifies the armor stats, secretly of course.) Surprise when the armor
doesn't work against that plasma weapon as planned!

- --norm fenlasonl


------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:01:45 -0500
Subject: Re: survey

>Virtually nobody wants something as simplistic as book 2.

>General Conclusions:
>Just about everybody wanted some complexity to ship design.  Book 2 
>was familiar to all but 7 of the 62 respondents, and yet only 3 of 
>them expressed any desire to still use the system.  

Something to keep in mind about the survey.  With only 62 people responding
it's not a very representitive sampling of those who might buy the system.
Also, most of the people on this list (who would respond) are more likely to
be engineering types who like detailed complexity.  If you wish to add my
vote to the survey and make it 63 than I vote for the book 2 system!

- -Daniel



------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:01:49 -0500
Subject: Aliens in T4

>Btw, will the basic rules book also cover alien races? Does they have
>special skills which have to be considered?

Maybe rules for the creation of 'generic' aliens would be a good idea.  But
I would ask IG not to include named aliens in the basic rules.  Keep the
rules pure of background because not everyone is interested in 'official'
background.

- -Daniel


------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:01:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Skills

>To me, the number of skill is unimportant.  There can be hundreds for all 
>I care.

Hundreds!  Then the game becames a record keeping nightmare.  Also the more
skills in the game the less important are the players basic stats.  Rather
than have a philosophy skill, use the players Education to determain if they
know something of the current planets philosophical beliefs.  Another comman
example, rather that use a swimming skill, just use the players strength
when the player is in the water.

Also, in games with hundreds of skills the players tend to spend most of
their time trying to learn every single skill.  One of the best rules of GT
was the Int + Educ limit to the number of skills a player could know.

A small number of skills makes each skill that much more important to the
players.

- -Daniel



------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:29:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: T4 Guns

What about lasers and gauss weapons?  Well they still be included in T4? 

Also, for non-lethal weapons I also recommend:

1) Zapper bullets, they could go in any large caliber weapon such as a
large handgun or a snub pistol.  With TL 12+ batteries the batter could
easily be placed in the bullet.  You would have a heck of a lot better
range than with an ordinary zapper

2) Sonic Stunners.  There is evidence that they would work and they
provide a nifty, high tech non-lethal weapon. 

If Traveller is to avoid becoming a primarily military game Traveller
needs good non-lethal weapons. 



- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #62
*********************************

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Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #63
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Precedence: bulk


Traveller-digest            Friday, 7 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 063

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Foundations of Traveller
         2. Re: Barstool Science?
         3. Re: Laser Canon (get it?)
         4. T4 Guns
         5. Draft Skill list feedback
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #61
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #58
         8. Re Draft Skill List
         9. T4 Guns and Vehicles
        10. PBeM
        11. Re: Draft Skill List for T4
        12. T4 "Mr Fusion" power plants
        13. Help rqst fr travell to Vancouver
        14. T4 Maneuver Drives
        15. Foundations of Traveller (Computers)
        16. Re: T4 Guns
        17. RE: OCC
        18. Re: Stefan Aust's Comments Re: Skills List.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 96 18:44:23 -0400
Subject: Foundations of Traveller

Marc,

>Grandfather (300,000 BC). One of the Droyne was born a mutation incredibly
>intelligent and incredibly talented. In his first few years, he realized  
and more history of the Ancient snipped.

	I think this should be more of a mystery.  Something for the
players to wonder about, and find weird ancient artifacts, but never
knowing what or who the ancients were.  It also adds a bit of mystery
to the Droyne.  Also I can still run Secret of the Ancients, which I
thought was one of the better CT Modules, at least of the ones I have. 

>THERES MORE!
>Solomani Rim Wars. The Hiver Interventions. The Virus Era. The Regency. The
>Far Far Future. The Expeditions to the Rim. The Heat Death of the Universe.

What are the Hiver Interventions?  Does this refer to the Hivers
sponsering the Reformation Coalition, or messing with the K'Kree.  Or
is it an yet untold series of manipulations of the Third Imperium.  

Oh, and I have to agree with several other people, the Heat Death of
hte Univers sounds like a real fun place to play.  

Player: "What do I see."
GM: Nothing, nothing at all.
:)

Lewis Roberts

------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:22:59 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Barstool Science?

 
> > Are you trying to look dumb?
> 
> Um, no.  I guess I thought that you were.  I took your comments to mean 
> that what little there actually is in 'empty' space constituted a medium 
> of sufficient density to push against for propulsion.  Oh, well...  Were 
> you actually talking about using a repulsor to clear a path in front of a 
> ship to avoid damage from micrometeorites and other such debris?  I know 
> that several versions of the design rules (from HG or MT, onward) 
> incorporated minimum hull thicknesses necessary to avoid damage from 
> space debris, but this seems somewhat shortsighted given that even a 1G 
> craft can achieve astounding velocities if given a long enough 
> acceleration burn.  Since none of the extant ship design rules have 
> ever incorporated 'navigational' repulsors (which currently don't appear 
> until TL-16), and any space debris events are almost exclusively referee 
> imposed (unless someone bricks their piloting roll during atmospheric 
> entry or gas giant refuelling), I suppose that such events can remain in 
> the realm of the many other hazards of interplanetary travel conveniently 
> unemphasized.  I'd much rather continue to ignore space sandblasting on a 
> routine basis than re-hack the repulsor design tables in order to further 
> complicate the spacecraft operation and combat rules.

First off, I'm sorry if that was too flaming a response.  With you
Subject line, yours seemed it to me at the time.  If your was a flame,
take mine that way, if it wasn't, sorry (and don't take mine that
way)---fair? :)

I added the idea to try to justify why CT/MT ships could ever go so
bloody fast.  BTW, the density of dust is on the order of fractions of a
particle per cubic km.  Typical scale sizes are on the order of microns.
Enough that a 10,000km/s ship will hit hundreds at least per second.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 17:25:23 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Laser Canon (get it?)

The TL*50 rule on DE was added by the beta list.  It was never in print
in FFS.  That was my point, dstraight FFS allows as much DE as you want
for a laser.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 16:28:49 -0700
Subject: T4 Guns

Neat, but too conservative. If you really have 1 MW/10kG Mr. Fusion reactors
they will *completely* dominate weapon design at TL-12 - ultra high power
gauss rifles and ultra-rapid-fire (or even beam) laser weapons are worth the
10kg penalty of carrying a fusion thingy.

Personally I think the rumored 1 MW/10kg fusion is too powerful - has 
Greg Porter tried seeing what it does to 3G3 gauss and laser designs?

Bruce

------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 6 Jun 96 16:26:31 MS
Subject: Draft Skill list feedback

>Character types supported include:
>
>Army, Navy, Marine, Scout, Merchant,
>Noble, Performer, Scholar, Agent, Rogue.
>
Uhhh, waitaminute, there's something missing here. I, OH MY GOD!  NO BELTER!
My players will kill me!  The very fabric of the universe will be ripped 
asunder.  Really ungood things will happen on a regular basis.  In the name of 
all that's holy, man, Put the Belter Back in Traveller!  And Lord help me, I do 
like the idea of a Barbarian character.  Would an even dozen character types be 
acceptable?

I like the selection otherwise.  Is it too early to be whining for a Citizens 
of the Imperium which breaks out and expands these classes even further?

>Consolidated Skill List (* indicates Default Skills [see below])
>Aircraft
This should include Lighter-than-air

>Armorer - 
is this one who makes armor or one who fixes weapons?

>Craftsman
Is this Crafts as in Arts and Crafts, or Crafts as in Trades and Crafts 
(bricklayer, carpenter etc)?

>Environment Combat*
Is this Zero-G Combat, or is this a cascade of some kind (broken up like 
Performance)?

>Fencing
Swordplay or selling stolen goods?

>Forensics
Yes!

>Gun Combat* (choose from Handgun*, Rifle*, Shotgun*, SMG*)
What about PGMPs and Laser weapons?

>Navigation*
How will this be differentiated from Astrogation?  Is navigation pathfinding in 
general, and Astrogation for starships only.  Maybe call this Orienteering?

>Ship
Is this a skill group where the player chooses the appropriate space skill, or 
is this a typo of Ship's Boat?

>Surface Vehicle*
This should be differentiated Wheeled and Tracked.  Maybe Hovercraft as well, 
but that's almost like an Aircraft skill)

>Tactics*
This should be broken up into Space Tactics, Air Tactics, Land Tactis and Sea 
Tactics (like Performance)

>Watercraft*
This should be broken up into Small Watercraft, Large Watercraft and Submersible

Skills I would add (the more skills the better, I always say; allows more 
differntiation between characters)
Animal Handling
Bargaining
Grav Belt
Interview
Swimming


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 17:20:18 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #61

At 03:04 PM 6/6/96 -0400, you wrote:

>From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
>Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 18:22:39 +0200
>Subject: Re: Draft Skill List
>


>I'm a military layman with only some very theoretically knowledge from books
>and movies. You showed that the job of a forward observer isn't a trivial
>one. But to justify a skill, there should be more.
>
>I imagine a f.o. as follows: Private Dan (the f.o.) is watching the
>advancing enemy with his infrared binoculars. "Donald to Mother Duck" (they
>always use this kind of silly abbreviations :-) he whispers in his com
>radio. Defense fire welcomes the enemy. The other soldiers drop into the
>dirt and answer the fire. "We need some help here, Zetas at region
>delta-three." "Here's Mother Duck. Hold on for fifty seconds. We're going to
>order some HELL fire." "Understud." Somewhere at the orbital command center,
>somebody presses some buttons, some computers go working and attack
>sattellite TH-93 send its deadly HELL-missiles to the ground, varporising
>everything of sector D3.

Well...  sort of.  I used to be a FO, and it goes like this:  PFC Dan,
attached to the HQ of a lift-infantry battalion, is alerted by the 2nd
platoon that they've spotted something.  Getting a visual confirmation of
their exact location, he contacts the Fire Officer of the battery in support.

"Romeo-64, this is Bravo-2-6-Sierra"  (note: the silly niknames are never
used.. try to figure out if Donald just ordered Huey, Duey or Louie to
attack over a PRC-77 radio)

"B-26S, go"

"Fire Mission.  I have five-zero infantry, with three wheeled APC moving
south along road 19.  Grid reference TW25498792.  Mix HE-Airburst and
FASCAM.  5 rounds."  (that's 5 rounds from each gun in the battery.. US
Army, about 40 rounds.. half of which will carry mines)

At the battery, gun crews enter the information into the ballistic
computers, as others start packing.  If this is ground based, shoot and
scoot is the only way of life.

Depending on the weapon/ammo, Bravo could call for more fire, adjust the
impact of the rounds, or designate targets for CLGP.

As for the deadly HELL missles..  I am *not* going to wait 10 minutes for my
fire support.  Artillery is like CPR: if it doesn't happen quickly, it ain't
going to help.
>
>No need for a skill roll, that least at my abstraction level of play.

I would love to have you in my T:2000 campaign and "abstract a short round
onto your position.  Playing with 155mm rounds is dangerous.


# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#    "Timothy Leary is dead -- No...he's outside,   #
#     looking in...."           -The Moody Blues    #
#                  1920-1996 - RIP                  #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 17:50:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #58

At 02:48 AM 6/6/96 -0400, you wrote:

>From: FarFuture@aol.com
>Date: Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:30:32 -0400
>Subject: Draft Skill List

>Character types supported include:
>
>Army, Navy, Marine, Scout, Merchant,
>Noble, Performer, Scholar, Agent, Rogue.

Good, back to the classics..  but may I make a suggestion?  Get rid of the
term "Marine".  I use Naval Infantry myself, and the "Imperial Marine" line
is a nickname.
>
>Consolidated Skill List (* indicates Default Skills [see below])
>
>Aircraft (choose from Copter, Prop Airplane, Jet Airplane)
add single and multi- engine to the Prop and Jet subskills

>Archery*
I just don't see this as a default.  Bows are difficult to use, hence the
old English maxim: to train a longbowman, train his grandfather.=20

>Armorer
Note:  This term also applies to those who build and repair weapons.

>Camouflage*
I'd rather see a more general Stealth skill

>Craftsman
Tim Allen: the only man in the Imperium with a negative skill in this.=
 (sorry)

>Environment Combat*
Since it has come up, there is a wide gulf between weapons training and
combat training.  The US Army trains heavily at night, which makes us
skilled at operating in the dark, using nightvision devices, and
instinctivly protecting our eyes from flares and the like.  This has nothing
to do with how well I shoot.  I see this as an open-ended cascade skill..  A
VC guerrila might have envirorment combat: (jungle) 4, but stick him in the
desert...

>Fencing
We need a ruling, does this refer to sabres or stolen goods?


>Jack of All Trades
I like this skill!  It served both as a method for portraying a very
resourceful character, as well as being a wonderful way of having the GM
fiddle with the game.
>Language (Specific)

>Perception*
Add Observation.  There is a difference.  I'm am not overly aware of my
surrondings (perception), but the things I am interested in I examine like a
hawk (observation)

>Philosophy*
I need to hear more about the skill

>Psionicology (an academic endeavor)
This is a GOOD THING

>Cascade Skills. A cascade skill allows the character to choose from a list
>and receives level 1 in that skill; He also gets level (1/2) in all others
>within the cascade.
>
>Aircraft
>Blade Weapons
>Gun Combat

Might add a generic Science skill, and then define the various disciplines
1=BE


------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 17:50:36 -0800
Subject: Re Draft Skill List

Consolidated Skill List (* indicates Default Skills [see below])

> Jack of All Trades

A must have for my gaming

>Cascade Skills. A cascade skill allows the character to choose from a list
>and receives level 1 in that skill; He also gets level (1/2) in all others
>within the cascade.

Cool!

As for missing skills:

Geology, Prospecting.

As for the "Better when roleplayed" argument: I'd rather have them in the
rules. It doesn't prevent good roleplaying, but it does back up the poorer
roleplayers, and allows them to do it.

I'd also like to see Genetics.

Medic/First Aid: Keep them separate, and add surgeon

Armorer: I figure this is more repair than building, and like the idea.

Make Computer a Cascade: (Operation, Repair, Design)


William F. Hostman

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

From: "Jonathan Clark" <jhc@lynxhub.ho.att.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:53:08 -0400
Subject: T4 Guns and Vehicles

The guns look really good - nice breadth and enough variance
to allow players and refs to customize things. Perhaps an
idea of typical ammunition calibres would be a good idea?
(ie a Magnum Revolver can run from .22 to .44 calibre).

I hope we're going to see an ammunition list as well (solid,
wad-cutter, frag, needle, discarding sabot...) with a 
this-can-go-in-these-weapons matrix.

But... what about the energy weapons? This includes ``Gauss''
weapons.

As far as the vehicles go, unless there's a really good
reason, please include an anti-grav skateboard. For obscure
reasons this is called a Beetof-Two (perhaps Beetof-Three,
I forget which movie is which :-) ).


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 21:57:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: PBeM

I am still getting requests to join my new PBeM Traveller campaign.  I 
have my hands full now with 11 players, no more please! Sorry! :)

Apologies to the uninterested,

Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com


------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:12:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List for T4

>Character types supported include:
>Army, Navy, Marine, Scout, Merchant,
>Noble, Performer, Scholar, Agent, Rogue.

I like these!  Performers sound like much fun.  I do think 
Journalist, Diplomat, and  Doctor would make useful additions to this list

As for the skills:

>Brawling (Unarmed)*
Will there also be Martial Arts?

>Camouflage*
This seems like it should come under Recon or Stealth

>Equestrian*

What about animal handling, Guard beast is a great skill,
especially when using geneered animals

>Fencing
Why  is this separate from Melee (armed)?

>First Aid* (very high levels become EMT)
Please cut this, the game has enough skills already.

Medic 1-2 does this perfectly well.

>Forensics

>Investigation*

How are these two skills different?

>Language (Specific)

I much prefer the MT Linguistics skill.  There are a whole bunch of languages
in the Imperium.  making everyone buy specific skill levels in a 
language either means no one will know more than at most two languages, 
or anyone who learns more will have few other skills left to play with.

>Navigation*

How is this different from Astrogation?  If it is for watercraft I 
believe the two skills should be combined for simplicities sake.

>Performance (Art)
>Performance (Dance)
>Performance (Drama)
>Performance (Music)
>Performance (Writing)

I like these, but I'm not sure writing is a performance skill (except 
perhaps on the net, on irc :)

>Philosophy*
I'm not sure this will ever be used

>Psychology*

Will this be treating and understanding the mentally ill, or simply and 
understanding of human (and alien) behavior?  I recommend the 2nd, 
Traveller has always suffered from a lack of social/interactive skills


Overall, I like the list, but do think the skill list should be reduced 
somewhat.  Too many skills depowers the characters and slows down the game.
Fewer more general skills increased PC versatility and makes the game 
easier to run.


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com


------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 19:19:43 -0700
Subject: T4 "Mr Fusion" power plants

Greg Porter dropped a bomb into the new starship design discussion by pointing
out that the proposed new "Fusion Plus" power plants in T4 have a baseline
of 1 megawatt in a *10kg* package.

I would like to  suggest that this be reconsidered - it's 
an enormously higher power-to-mass ratio than any previous iteration; even
Classic Trav/High Guard power plants were only 10 MW/tonne or so at TL-15,
not 100 MW/tonne. It's an *enormous* change - unless we redesign all the
starship systems to suck more power, power plants become a negligible part
of TL-12 starships. Personal weapons will probably be dominated by lasers - a
1 MW continous beam laser is a fairly scary thing. 11 kg thruster-plate missiles
can accelerate at 40G's forever. I'm sure clever minds can come up with ways
to turn a Mr. Fusion into a bomb (build a machine that you drop in a sewer
that makes hydrogen using allt he power, for example - the sewers fill up with
hydrogen gas until something sets them off - boom.)

Even more important than the changes to all the rest of the technology,
the social changes are almost completely unpredictable; it's very hard to 
imagine that a society with this much power available looking as much like
our society as the Imperium of 1107 did.

My advice would be to keep the Mr. Fusion concept, but decrease the power 
density; 10 kW for a 10kg fusion generator would be reasonable, still allow
all sorts of cool technological toys but not completely change the shape of
Traveller technology and society. even 100 kW per 10kg would be better...

Bruce Macintosh
bmac@igpp.llnl.gov/bmac@astro.ucla.edu

------------------------------

From: carbin@neda.net.ir ()
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:25:26 
Subject: Help rqst fr travell to Vancouver

I hope to travel to Vancouver, B.C. Canada and need some information 
about accomodation  and ....

Please send E-Mail to: carbin@neda.net.ir


Regards,
Carbin

------------------------------

From: j.kundert@genie.com
Date: Fri,  7 Jun 96 05:51:00 UTC 0000
Subject: T4 Maneuver Drives

One consideration that will have to be made in the FF&S book if Thruster
Plates are adopted as the primary tech for Year 0 is the cost of the
things.  Thruster Plate designs using the prices in FF&S are impossible
from the economic point of view.  The drives are so expensive that the
price of the ship is directly relatable to the Thrust value, and even
1G ships cannot take on enough cargo (let alone Freight) to pay the
monthly bills.  The drop in fuel requirements is nowhere near enough.

 This is the primary reason I assumed duel technologies in my 1120s
Spinward Marches game (er, make that DUAL technologies).  Most people
use HEPlaR because it's really cheap to build and use.  Those for whom
money means nothing (Pirates, the Government...) use Thrusters because
of the tactical advantage of no fuel tank limits and because they don't
have to deal with the bank for one reason or another...

 Jim Kundert
   j.kundert@genie.com

------------------------------

From: CardSharks@aol.com
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 04:22:29 -0400
Subject: Foundations of Traveller (Computers)

One comment made about FOT relates to computers. After you have looked over
the FOT text, consider writing a short paragraph which addresses the impact
of Computers; AI; Robots.

Thanx


Marc


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 16:51:45 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Re: T4 Guns

At 03:29 PM 6/6/96 -0700, John R. Snead wrote:
>What about lasers and gauss weapons?  Well they still be included in T4? 
>
>Also, for non-lethal weapons I also recommend:
[snip]
>If Traveller is to avoid becoming a primarily military game Traveller
>needs good non-lethal weapons. 
>
>
>
>-John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
>

        How about the following:

Goopguns (aka Personnel-Immobilization Gel [PIG] Dispensers):  Short-range
(maybe a max range of 3-4 meters) weapons that spray adhesive that when
released immediately expands into a foam and sets very quickly and very
hard.  Some variants, to add insult to immobilization, could dye the target
as well, to further impede escape (imagine trying to fight or flee with a
cubic meter of bright pink foam that's spread liberally about your person,
cemented itself to your body and clothing, and set rock hard, turning
everything that it's touched bright pink in the process).  I imagine that
due to volume requirements, handheld versions would only have a limited
magazine capacity.

        Another variant could be goop canisters fired out of shotguns, riot
weapons, and grenade launchers.  The grenade launcher/riot weapon variants
could have an area effect, the shotgun versions proximity fuzes that would
release the goop 1 to two meters from target to achieve maximum dispersion.

        I would see goop weapons as being primarily used by law enforcement
personnel, in situations where the live capture of the target would be
desirable (however, PIG deployment could prove fatal in the event that it
set over the target's breathing orifices, inducing axphyxiation).  Degooping
the target could be achieved by application of solvents, belt sanders (or
the TLxx equivalent), or carefully chipping it off with hammer and chisel.
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 96 10:09:00 PDT
Subject: RE: OCC

Marc wrote

>Since the authority of the
>Imperium itself generally ends at the edge of space, OCC agents are 
virtually
>the only agents with authority in peace-time to visit, inspect, and enforce
>on world surfaces.
>Are they ever co-opted by the Minister of Trade to achieve clandestine
>missions?

Definitely.  I would expect them to have to write 'context reports' about 
the
worlds which they visit.  These would ostensibly be to provide contextual
information for the MoT, but in reality would be distributed to several
government agencies.

>Are they trained? In what? Are people temporarily assigned to OCC?

I would imagine that for any serious clandestine work it would be more
efficient to use an intelligence agent posing as an OCC operative than
an OCC operative attempting to act as an intelligence professional.
Having said that, most OCC operatives would have training in skills
which would allow them to function in low level intelligence roles -
research skills, liaison skills, computer skills - but I wouldn't expect
them to have Interrogation-4 Resisting Torture-6 etc.

OCC would have a number of 'seconded officers' seconded from
other eveyday branches of the Imperial governmental apparatus,
such as the Imperial Records Office, Bureau of Social Trends,
Office for the Promotion of Travel and Tourism etc. Strangely enough,
to anyone digging around, computer personnel records for these
agencies might show that these people appear not to exist...

Cheers

Iain
iain.rowan@sunderland.ac.uk


------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 12:04:25 +0200
Subject: Re: Stefan Aust's Comments Re: Skills List.

I'm still learning and I've learned to not lean out of the window so wide.
Some of my comments where thoughtless, some showed me that my English isn't
that good. A few replies:

I'm still in favor for a set of 50-60 skills because the more skills you
have, the longer the character creation process could (please note, I didn't
say "will") last. It will (at least for me) be more complicate to memorize
the skills and, probably most important, with more and more skills, the
single character has lesser abilities.

Some skills are TL-depend. Some (like Archery) make most sense for low tech
characters, others (like Computer) only for high tech operations. It's
difficult to decide which to include but I think, when in doubt, include the
high tech ones because that's probably the TL where (most of) the characters
come from.

To fix a battledress, I would suggest to use the Battle Dress skill (same
counts for weapons, IMHO). To handle this and all other kinds of occupation
skills, I would suggest to introduce exactly this skill, Occupation (which
one). Now you could have all your bakers, armorers or architects with a
professional rating.

The performance subskills have of course to be included. My fault. But
perhaps I would perfer the single skills Art, Dance, Drama, ... (not sure yet)

Philosophy, for me it was the abstract or even spiritual way of viewing the
world. Form your postings I got the impression that you understand this in a
wider, more practical way, as a general idea of how things work. Especially
to figure out, how alien artefacts or alien societies work. That's a useful
skill, however, I would prefer a different skill name then.

Same on research. You seem to understand this not only in an accademic way
but as something, the Call of Cthulhu rules know as Library Use. (As a
sidenode "Information Sciences" is unknown in Germany (AFAIK). You'll study
for a master in history to work at archives, for example)

On character classes: IMHO, we should not consider character types who might
go for adventure but people who go for travel. This also goes conform with
the game's name :-) While traveling, they might truggle into adventures.
Will only army or navy people travel? I don't think so. 

There are at first astronauts (a collective name for all people who fly
starships), space marines (the armed security forces aboard), traders
(people who go and buy or sell good on other planets), explorer (who explore
and survey foreign worlds), hunters, prospectors, and all other kinds of
soldiers-of-fortune (who want to become rich (of money or something else)),
diplomats, soldiers and mercs, wealthy travellers (who want to have a good
day or exciting holydays), scientists (who hunt for fame and scientific
discoveries), criminals (who run away from law), police (who follows them),
entertainers (big stars who travel around and perform life-shows), preachers
(who want to save people's soul and/or make a lot of money) or dozens of
other adventurers.

A few, perhaps most of them, have also a military training, are perhaps
retired marines but only few of them are in active duty. These should be the
character types one can play (named after the current occupation or
activity, not after the job they have done in past). The provided character
types should be a fast and easy way to build a character to play, not a
restricted group of persons who may go for adventure (I didn't think anybody
has meant this but just to make sure :)

A navy doctor, for example should have 1 term Navy (basic training) and 3-4
terms of Scholar (Medicine), to use the current characters types. I would
call this a Doctor, who works for the Navy and not the other way round.

A member of the ISS could first be a criminal, then a prospector, then doing
three terms of scout. It's now a scout but he was more in his past (and he
was never a soldier ;-)

Noble as a character class is also a little bit difficult. To be a noble is
not an occupation but a luck-of-birth. To be a wealthy traveler, or a
diplomant, that's an occupation and a good character type (IMHO). Being a
Noble is too generic.

Btw., the role of a hunter, who wants to collect trophies from a dozen
worlds for a wealthy aristocrat, ignoring the fact whether this might be
legal or not, could be a good player character. He could be a former army
men, perhaps a sniper. She could also have served one or two terms in the
ISS, to learn somthing about piloting a star ship and surviving.

Also the belter (or better general prospector, I wouldn't restrict this to
asteroids mining) is a very good character. He'll browse all kind of unusual
or lonely places to find the valueable claim. 

Back to skills. In the meantime, I've compared the posted list with TNE and
would agree that Geology (for the prospector) and Observation (as general
skill, if you will not replace this will simple INT-rolls) are missing. 

What's about Climbing or Mountaineering? 
To support roleplay, I would like to see something like Seduction.
Two Occupation subskills might be Farming and Animal Handling. 
Construction could be also useful, the last three especially for colony
foundation adventures.
I also would try to compact as much as possible combat skils to subskills to
help military (or other combat oriented characters) to know a wider range of
weapons. 
And I would perfer Unarmed Combat instead of Brawling, I think, which should
also include martial arms at higher levels even if experts might cry about this.

Or what's about

        Melee (Unarmed)
        Melee (Blade weapons)
        Melee (Clubs)
        Melee (Polearms)
        Missile combat (Throwing weapons)
        Missile combat (Bow)
        Missile combat (Crossbow)
        Gun combat (Early firearms)
        Gun combat (Modern firearms)
        Gun combat (Energy weapons)
        Gun combat (Heavy weapons)

Please don't nail me down on exact naming, but I like this uniform
structure. Perhaps one should also distinguish between pistols, guns and
shotguns but I would in the first trial for the snake of simplicity. My only
own experience is Bow, which I tried some time ago. It's quite difficult to
use compared to crossbow (which is easy) or other thowing weapons which also
need strength as a bow but an other kind of targetting.

On Gunnery. Somebody said, it's for space combat. My German edition has the
skill "Bordschuetze" (combat pilot), perhaps that's the same?

What's the skill to shoot with an shoulder rocket thrower? Hvy Weapons?
What's the skill to use a small MG (20mm) aboard a grav tank? Hvy Weapons?
What's the skill to use its main fusion gun? Gunnery?
What's the skill to use the small ground-to-air defense missile? Gunnery?

If these are the correct answers, I've understood the skills :-)

On to Charles skill list. I like most of his suggestion. However, 

I would like to suggest my above combat-skill hierachy,
replace Craftsman with more general Occupation skill, 
replacing Commo and Recon with their long terms, 
set computer only for hitech characters as default, 
replace fencing and equestrian with better terms, 
didn't cascade Gunnery (they all use the same terminals),
rename surface vehicle to ground veh and make it also D.,
drop D of watercraft (change this only for waterworlds),
set vacc suit only for hitech characters as default

On F.O.: okay, you all have convinced me. I give up. At higher TL, probably
the computer systems used have the needed skill which gives a bonus to the
character rolling for his F.O. skill.

Andrew Boulton also suggested the skill Xenobilogy which could be a very
important (and very general) skill used for many adventures. We should
include it.

Just one last thought to use occupation skill rating for calculating income:
I think, this works for crafts but not so good for arts. A rockstar, for
example isn't wealthy because he's a good singer, player or even performer
(even today, there're good one and lousy one) but perhaps because he or she
has a good PR manager. So one should determine the income either be chance
or use the manager's skill instead.

I'll stop,
bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #63
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 7 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 064

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: T4 Guns

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:36:22 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Re: T4 Guns

At 03:29 PM 6/6/96 -0700, John R. Snead wrote:
>What about lasers and gauss weapons?  Well they still be included in T4? 
>
>Also, for non-lethal weapons I also recommend:
[snip]
>
>If Traveller is to avoid becoming a primarily military game Traveller
>needs good non-lethal weapons. 
>
>
>
>-John Snead jsnead@netcom.com
>

        Here's another one: Tangler guns.  Projectile weapons that launch
projectiles with a high rate of spin.  Once out of the weapon's barrel, the
hollow projectile casing splits into 6 segments, linked at the centre by
meterlong strands of hi-tensile fibers coated with, you guessed it, a
powerful adhesive.  Centrifugal force on the casing segments tensions the
web, and their momentum and spin cause the web to wrap around the target,
seriously impeding its mobility.

        Again, this is the sort of thing that would be used by riot police
who wanted to apprehend suspects alive.  Tangler rounds could be fired by
riot weapons, grenade launchers, and the like.

        A really nasty (highly lethal) variant would use monomolecular
monofilament instead of sticky string.  Ouch.
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #64
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 7 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 065

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Some Random Thoughts
         2. Change of address...
         3. Tangler guns?
         4. Re: Draft Skill List
         5. Re: Armourer as a skill
         6. Re: survey
         7. RE: Foundations of Traveller 
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #62
         9. Various Comments from the Peanut Gallery
        10. More random thoughts...
        11. Re: survey
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #62
        13. Re: T4 Character Types
        14. Language

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 08:38:50 -0400
Subject: Some Random Thoughts

I've been sorta watching the discussions on this list about game design,
technology, and such and some random thoughts tripped across my tired
synapses...

STAR[SPACE]SHIP TECHNOLOGY
=============== ==========

It would occur to me that the potential for many types of propulsion
technology to be developed would exist in the universe.  In fact, "older
types" of propulsion might well be developed only to be outmoded by "newer"
types of propulsion.  

A limited example of this here on Sol/Terra would be the development of the
railroads. First propulsion technology used there, and used for a long time
was steam which was eventually displaced by diesel technology.  For a while
there diesels and steam locomotives ran on the same track concurrently.  In
fact, worldwide there are still steam engines in every day use in some
underdeveloped countries.

Taking this tack a little further automobile and truck technology uses
several technologies concurrently with no sign of any technology getting
totally squeezed out.  These include gasoline internal combustion, diesel,
electric, propane, and LNG. Yes, it could be argued that really there are
only two general types of propulsion technology represented, that being
internal combustion and electric.  I see them as separate developments as
they each have their own peculiar challanges.

In aircraft development jets and props, fixed wing and rotary wing, are the
technologies that are predominant.  But, guess what,  lighter than air
technology is coming back for limited roles.  Another wrinkle to consider in
a gaming system is the idea that an older technology gets dusted off and
through the use of "modern developments" gets new life breathed into it.

So:  what's my point?  For one thing I don't really think that a linear
development cycle of technology is vaild.  Sentient beings are too random to
have their creativity limited like that.  There is room in the universe for
many solutions to the same sets of problems. I seem to remember reading
science fiction and watching in the visual arts scenes where a character
that was in the know looked at somebody's starship and said "it works but we
don't know what makes it work."   The other guys had solved the problem of
covering large distances in space in a reasonable time quite differently
than the paradigm that the main characters of the story were used to.

Playablility issues with the above:

Having said all that, some points to consider...

        +       Many was the time where I was GMing a game and I wanted my party
                to encounter a ship and I didn't want to spend 3 weeks
designing it
                and drawing it.  There was no need for that detail.  There
needs to 
                be a mechanism that allows GMs to produce a ship that is within 
                game balance ("... should be 100KT is size and armed to the
teeth..")
                without fleshing out details. 

        +       There also needs to be several types of ship design methods.  I 
                loved High Guard and the MT ship design rules drove me nuts.  I 
                still can't design ships with it.  For folks who can wade their 
                way through that stuff it needs to be there as it *does* produce
                elegant looking designs.

        +       If there are considered to be multiple drive technologies
out there
                then rules would be needed to cover fitting that
matter-anti-matter
                drive into that TL12 ship that the crew of which happened to
steal.


Anyway... enough rambling...
       _]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]
      _] Peter L. Berghold               INTERNET: berghop@tcg.com      _]
     _] FAX: (718) 355-4282                 -or- peterb@superlink.net  _]
_] PHONE: (718) 355-2722         UUCP: tcgny!berghold@uunet.uu.net_]
   _] Sr. Unix Specialist, TCG MIS Dept.                             _]    
  _] "Those who fail to learn from history                          _]
 _]                           are condemned to repeat it..."       _]
_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]


------------------------------

From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:08:46 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Change of address...

Sorry to use the list for this (hmmm... sounds familiar) but I've 
been trying to change my address so that I can receive the digest at 
my new e-mail location.  Unfortunately, it keeps on saying that it 
doesn't recognise the command.  To that end could someone do the 
pleasure for me, or send my explicit (I'm not too bright with 
computers!) instructions on how to change it!  Either that, or I'll 
have to unsubscribe and re-subscribe (though those commands probably 
won't work either ;-)

Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, BSc. Archaeology (Leicester University)

  "Darn, I knew I shouldn't have sent this e-mail
   without proof-reading it!"

------------------------------

From: "M.A.Trickett" <mat3@leicester.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:15:11 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Tangler guns?

Someone mentioned the use of high-tensile wire... would that not have 
similar effects to 'monomolecular' wire when being fired at 
(relatively) small, soft pulpy stuff called flesh?

I don't know, but it was just a thought... (nice idea though... 
brought up images of Star Wars:  Return of the Jedi for me!)

Cheers
          --MARK

Mark Trickett, BSc. Archaeology (Leicester University)

  "Darn, I knew I shouldn't have sent this e-mail
   without proof-reading it!"

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 07:27:45 -0800
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List

On  6 Jun 96 at 18:22, Stefan Matthias Aust spewed:

> >        Well, despite all the Politically Correct "let's get rid of violence
> >in roleplaying games" some people *like* military adventures. Doesn't mean
> >they're going to hole up on a farm in Montana or anything; it's simply
> exciting.
> 
> ...Dave said. I had absolutely no intention to tell other people how to
> game. Without a good fight, roleplaying becomes boring, IMHO. But sometimes,
> it also can be more challenging to solve a problem without combat. My
> overall oppinion is only, that a gaming system should be open for any
> direction and not overemphasis military (or non-military) actions. In my
> mail, I questioned whether the skill "forward observer" is a very useful one
> or if it should be dropped in favor for other skills.
> 
> I'm a military layman with only some very theoretically knowledge from books
> and movies. You showed that the job of a forward observer isn't a trivial
> one. But to justify a skill, there should be more.
> 
> I imagine a f.o. as follows: Private Dan (the f.o.) is watching the
> advancing enemy with his infrared binoculars. "Donald to Mother Duck" (they
> always use this kind of silly abbreviations :-) he whispers in his com
> radio. Defense fire welcomes the enemy. The other soldiers drop into the
> dirt and answer the fire. "We need some help here, Zetas at region
> delta-three." "Here's Mother Duck. Hold on for fifty seconds. We're going to
> order some HELL fire." "Understud." Somewhere at the orbital command center,
> somebody presses some buttons, some computers go working and attack
> sattellite TH-93 send its deadly HELL-missiles to the ground, varporising
> everything of sector D3.
> 

You simplify here...

quite often the first round, or first several rounds are going to 
miss the target.  A forward observer not only calls in the fire, but 
also gives the artillery instructions to adjust the fire.  He needs 
to know communications, trajectory, and the capabilities of the gun 
or craft he's directing fire for.  In late 20th century combat, this is with 
artillery pieces a few miles away or aircraft coming in on the fly.  
With fire coming from say, an Imperial battlecruiser in orbit, the 
need for a good Forward Observer will be even more acute.  

True, not everybody wants to get into heavy military adventures, but 
the capability should be there if somebody wants to.  TNE's biggest 
mistake, IMHO wasn't virus, it was the fact that they spent 2 years 
publishing nothing but military adventures for the system.  I don't 
think T4 wants to make the same mistake in reverse.

Stu 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 07:27:45 -0800
Subject: Re: Armourer as a skill

On  6 Jun 96 at 17:51, normf@wegener.com spewed:

> Regarding concerns of aving PCs with Armourer as a skil:
> 
> Let them make the armor. As a referee, make your own roll against their
> skill. (If using TNE task system, the level a secret roll achieved
> modifies the armor stats, secretly of course.) Surprise when the armor
> doesn't work against that plasma weapon as planned!

I'm sure this is how I will wind up handling it.  Kind of like those 
who wrote their own software under CT/MT.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 07:36:28 -0800
Subject: Re: survey

On  6 Jun 96 at 17:01, Daniel spewed:

> 
> >Virtually nobody wants something as simplistic as book 2.
> 
> Something to keep in mind about the survey.  With only 62 people responding
> it's not a very representitive sampling of those who might buy the system.
> Also, most of the people on this list (who would respond) are more likely to
> be engineering types who like detailed complexity.  If you wish to add my
> vote to the survey and make it 63 than I vote for the book 2 system!
> 
Great, that makes it 4 out of 63 who expressed any liking for book 2 
at all.

The survey was posted twice in the 10 days it ran.  If a larger 
number of people didn't respond, this would seem to indicate they 
really don't care what they wind up with (or just lurk).  I venture 
to say that there are very few people out there who want to return to 
Book 2.  This is reflected by the fact that virtually EVERYBODY who 
responded (90%+) was familiar with Book 2, and yet only 3 people out 
of the 58 who expressed familiarity with Book 2 want to use it again. 
 Heck, although I didn't keep numbers on this, I seem to recall that 
probably 10-15 of those people sold their CT books at some point.  
The VAST majority of those who still use the CT rules, use High 
Guard, not book 2.

On the other hand, if you want to use book 2, even with T4, no one is 
going to stop you, so go ahead.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:39:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: RE: Foundations of Traveller 

In Reply to Your Message of Thu, 06 Jun 1996 18: 44:23 EDT
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 10:39:18 -0400
From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@chopin.udel.edu>

: Marc,
: 
: What are the Hiver Interventions?  Does this refer to the Hivers
: sponsering the Reformation Coalition, or messing with the K'Kree.  Or
: is it an yet untold series of manipulations of the Third Imperium.  

No, didn't you know the entire Third Imperium was a Hiver
Intervention.  And they're actually the ones who told Grandfather that
maybe he should play with his home-biology kit more.  8)

: Oh, and I have to agree with several other people, the Heat Death of
: hte Univers sounds like a real fun place to play.  

My question is--will there be a restaurant there?

       --Jerry

8) Jerry Alexandratos                %  "Nothing inhabits my    (8 
8) darkstar@strauss.udel.edu         %   thoughts, and oblivion (8
8) darkstar@canary.pearson.udel.edu  %   drives my desires."    (8

------------------------------

From: jmg141@psu.edu (John M Gardner)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 10:42:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #62

>	I would like to second (third?) the vote for a Belter class.  It
>can be part of merchant or something, but I would definately like to see
>it included.  This would require some sort of prospecting skill (though I
>guess this is just a combo of geology and sensor skills).  I was never so 
>hot on the Hunter class.  

Maybee I've been spoiled by the numerous character types in TNE, but more
diversity would be nice.  ;>)


>From: broussa@connecti.com (David C. Broussard)
>Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 15:08:11 -0500 (CDT)
>Subject: Armourer as a skill
>
>The ability to build and repair both Armour and Weapons is usually
>considered one skill, did I miss Gunsmithing, if I did then they are treated
>seperately.  Even so, the ability to repair armour becomes VERY important
>when armour becomes more than just a vest of cloth (ballistic) and is
>powered or has ceramic plates, or needs to be adjusted to fit a new wearer,
>or needs the commo/battle comp/other misc electronics device installed/repaired
>DCB

My understanding of this skill (as used in the army, which may just
invalidate what I say here ;>) )  was that an armorer was one who was
skilled in weapons repair.  Each unit in the active U.S. Army has a unit
armorer assigned to it to oversee the maintainence and so forth for the
unit's weapons.  I see no reason why this skill couldn't be used to cover
both armor and weapons.


------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:28:24 +0900
Subject: Various Comments from the Peanut Gallery

Non-Lethal Weapons:
How about a weapon that shoots lots of viscous gel/resin that incapacitates 
or immobilizes.  I think I read about that kind of thing in Time magazine a 
few months ago (really!).  I think they said that the stuff would dissolve 
in water or alcohol or something like that.  The weapon could be tanks with 
a hose, or something like just another type of grenade for a grenade 
launcher.  It would be great for riot control, and wouldn't tear out the 
insides of your starship either.

Character Types:
I suppose I could just bend the rules on my own to do this, but I would like 
it if the new character generation system allowed for the possibility that 
military (law enforcement and so on too) characters are still on active 
duty, and not every character need be a retiree/veteran (which is what CT 
implied).  After all, scholars and performers will likely still be "active", 
right?  It would be interesting to have the players be Imperial Navy captain 
and officers or something.  They would trade the access to resources for 
having to follow orders, but they could have lots of power/leeway to make 
interesting decisions.  They could also have interesting responsibilities. 
 Kind of like Star Trek, I guess.

Skills:
I too would like to see more attention paid to categorizing skills 
carefully.  I'm glad many people have suggested this.  It would help the 
referee to include new house skills because they would be easy to 
categorize.  I like the TNE skill categorization system, I guess.  If skills 
are categorized well, then we could have more of them and it would still be 
manageable (relatively).

Alternate Technology:
I realize the emphasis is on the canon universe, but I think that it would 
be more interesting if non-Imperial civilizations had a few unusual 
technologies to surprise the players.  This might be more important to the 
game than before, since one of the interesting things about Milieu 0 is 
exploring and contacting.  We've already started down that path with fusion 
plus and the idea of using thrusters and HEPlaR together.

Just my 2 yen worth.

Armand the Lurker



------------------------------

From: peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 11:26:34 -0400
Subject: More random thoughts...

Adventure types:

I'm seeing lots to be said about adventure types, so here goes:

I happen to be a real fan of military type adventures.  Could be a direct
result of the fact that the first really successfull character I ever played
in a campaign was a member of a party that ended up being very wealthy by
fighting other peoples battles.  Out of the party of 10 ended up a
corporation that was called "Armageddon Industries" that eventually, because
the ref at the time could figure out a way to put a lid on us, ended up
being a government unto itself.  Such experiences tend to warp a person's
perspective on things.

My longest running character is a retired Marine Colonel, Thul Jonson, that
made quite a name for himself as a repo man retrieving skipped ships. He
retired from that profession because he became *too* well known.

On the other hand when I've refed campaigns in the past the types of
adventures I've had in the campaign have run the gamut of exploration (my
personal favorite to GM), merchantile (read the book "Tai-Pan" by James
Clavell to get an idea of what I'm talking about here.  Merchants can be
exiting folks if they are played well.) Of course, the odd military
adventure made its way in. 

Point being: In almost all of those adventure types rules from each were
needed to play any one of those.  Let's not throw out the bath water with
the baby.  (or is the other way around?) 

Let's see... ball, powder, patch, and then primer..  NO! WAIT! ... :)

       _]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]
      _] Peter L. Berghold               INTERNET: berghop@tcg.com      _]
     _] FAX: (718) 355-4282                 -or- peterb@superlink.net  _]
_] PHONE: (718) 355-2722         UUCP: tcgny!berghold@uunet.uu.net_]
   _] Sr. Unix Specialist, TCG MIS Dept.                             _]    
  _] "Those who fail to learn from history                          _]
 _]                           are condemned to repeat it..."       _]
_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 08:35:51 -0800
Subject: Re: survey

On  7 Jun 96 at 7:36, traveller@MPGN.COM spewed:

> On  6 Jun 96 at 17:01, Daniel spewed:
> 
> > 
> > >Virtually nobody wants something as simplistic as book 2.
> > 
> > Something to keep in mind about the survey.  With only 62 people responding
> > it's not a very representitive sampling of those who might buy the system.
> > Also, most of the people on this list (who would respond) are more likely to
> > be engineering types who like detailed complexity.  If you wish to add my
> > vote to the survey and make it 63 than I vote for the book 2 system!
> > 

Daniel,

I got to thinking about your reply and I realized that I responded 
a little harshly.  What can I say, I'm part Irish & Scottish, and 
we're not exactly noted for controlling our temper...  :-)

I tried as much as I could to keep my personal opinions out of the 
survey.  I guess I got so angry at you because you made it sound as 
if I had some sort of personal agenda here.  If I did, my personal 
agenda didn't work.

Anybody whose read my opinions for very long on this list, 
will realize that they are quite a bit different from what the survey 
bore out.  I don't like FF&S.  I don't want to spend that long 
designing a ship.  I'd much rather take that kind of time to detail a 
few critical NPC's, a few worlds, or write a few more adventure 
hooks.  My time is too precious to take the time to design a ship 
with FF&S.  I like MT, and may still use it if I don't like the less 
complex system that is being worked on as we speak.  It still gives 
me a reasonably detailed ship, and doesn't take long to do on a 
spreadsheet.

On the other hand, there are a lot of "gearheads" (I hate that term 
now just about as much as the word  "canon" on this list) who want 
that level of detail, and frankly, some of them present quite 
convincing arguments on why a FF&S style product is necessary.  I 
don't agree with them, but they are obviously passionate in what they 
feel, just as you are in your defense of Book 2.  They were also out 
there in much larger numbers than people who leapt to the defense of 
Book 2.

When 58 out of 62 people responding to a survey tell me they've seen 
Book 2, and only 3 of those people say they still want to use it, I 
think my statement that "virtually no one wants to return to a Book 
2 system" is not jumping to conclusions without the data to back it 
up.  I recall Rob Miracle saying that there are about 500 people on 
the 2 lists about a month ago (maybe Rob can update this number).  If 
this is the case 62 is about 12-13% of that number.  That is a far 
larger sampling than most polls taken in other arenas.  Heck, 
presidential victories are usually called on less than 13% of the 
returns.  

No it is not scientific, and yes you can dispute the findings if you 
wish, but everyone on this list had a chance to make their feelings heard.  
If they choose not to do so, then as in any other democratic process, 
silence is assumed to be consent...  Obviously the majority didn't want 
to take the time to respond to a poll.  Maybe they don't care what the 
next system looks like.  Maybe they're shy or afraid of being flamed 
(although they had my e-mail address to mail it privately to me if they 
wished).  Maybe they didn't read either of the messages about it I posted.  
Or maybe they came to the same conclusions by themselves that the poll did.  
All I can do is report the results and draw conclusions based on the 
data I have.

I'm sorry that the results didn't come out the way you hoped, but 
hey, they didn't come out the way I would have liked either...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@Mail.Bostaden.Umea.SE>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:42:58 +1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #62

> From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
> Subject: Aliens in T4
> >To me, the number of skill is unimportant.  There can be hundreds for all 
> >I care.
> 
> Hundreds!  Then the game becames a record keeping nightmare.

Not neccessarily. Look at games like Gurps, all it takes is a decent 
character sheet. Me, I like the variety.

>  Also the more
> skills in the game the less important are the players basic stats.

Exactly! Only, I see that as an *advantage*. I don't like games where 
the sole determinant of a character's abilities are the basic stats. 
I prefer games where change is possible.

> Also, in games with hundreds of skills the players tend to spend most of
> their time trying to learn every single skill.

Not in my experience. I tend to have the opposite problem, that 
players *concentrate* on one or a few skills to a ridiculous degree.

>  One of the best rules of GT
> was the Int + Educ limit to the number of skills a player could know.

And I ***HATED*** that rule. Didn't feel it made any sense 
whatsoever. But then, it was easy to rip it out of the rules... ;-)

- --
| Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se          | I am a number,  |
| 100342.3455@compuserve.com - jonask@io.com | not a man! - 42 |

------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 09:16:38 MST7
Subject: Re: T4 Character Types

> From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
> Date: Thu, 6 Jun 1996 12:10:15 -0400 (EDT)
> Subject: Re: T4 Character Types
> 
> > Secret Agent. Imperial Agent. Law Enforcement Agent. Insurance Agent?
> 
> Don't forget Agent Orange, and of course . . .
> 
> 
>       Travel Agent
> 
No no no, Rob, there are none of those...along with the phone 
sanitizers and other sundry types, they were sent off to Andromeda in 
generation ship eons ago...

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:23:41 +0100
Subject: Language

Hi there

Brief comment about the T4 Language skill.  The main problem with
making this a single skill per language is that if you have a
restrictions on the number of skill levels, a multi-lingual character
will need to scrifice other skills.  This doesn't fit in with my
experience - a lot of people speak several languages while having as
wide a range of skills as the next man - they can't all be geniuses!

The point is, I think, that many languages are sufficiently related
that once you learn one, others with a similar history don't require
as much of your "skill quota".  Thus, someone who speaks Italian and
German will have an easier time picking up other European languages.
Perhaps a language group which counts against the "skill quota", with
for example learning languages of different races or cultures with
radically different histories being a seperate group.

Stewart

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #65
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Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #66
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 7 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 066

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Language (Specific)
         2. Re: Draft Skill List for T4
         3. Re: Draft Skills
         4. Re: Social/Interactive skills
         5. Survey warning !
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #62
         7. Re: Social/Interactive skills
         8. Re: Language
         9. FFS Lite
        10. Re: Social/Interactive skills
        11. Re: FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin (fwd)
        12. Re: T4 Character Types
        13. Re: Laser Canon (get it?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 01:24:09 +0900
Subject: Language (Specific)

John R. Snead wrote:

>>Language (Specific)
>I much prefer the MT Linguistics skill.  There are a whole bunch of 
languages in the Imperium, making everyone buy specific skill levels in a 
language either means no one will know more than at most two languages, or 
anyone who learns more will have few other skills left to play with.

Yes, and I think that is realistic.

I must side with Marc's idea here.  I'm a college language teacher and 
linguist and I know how much hard work it is to learn languages.  I think a 
whole skill is justified.  It may not be convenient, but it's not convenient 
in real life either.  And unless we want to go into the details of which 
languages are related closely enough to others to allow transfer of half the 
skill level for a cascade, the Language skill should not be a cascade. 
 Learning a foreign language well enough to use it is not a trivial matter, 
as I'm sure many of you know.

Additionally, linguistics does not mean the learning of languages. 
 Linguistics is the study of the properties of language, not the learning of 
the languages themselves.  Linguists do not necessarily speak many 
languages, and multilinguals are usually not linguists.  Are all French 
Canadians who speak French and English as native speakers linguists?  It's 
the same as knowing music theory vs. being able to play an instrument.  It 
is possible to have one without the other.  One is knowledge, the other a 
skill.

Language (Specific) as a separate skill would also help simulate the 
necessity for having translators and linguists along, in addition to 
diplomats, when contacting civilizations after the Long Night.  There were 
1500 years for language change to occur, and that's time enough for 
significant language diversion; a different language could have branched off 
from the original Galanglic of 1500 years ago (OLD Galanglic).  All that 
time there was little or no contact with speakers of Galanglic on other 
worlds.  Many of these old civilizations might have even stopped using 
Galanglic in favor of a local language.  Language (Specific) would simulate 
the great language barriers involved.  Although I love Star Trek, I always 
cringe when they make first contact with a new civilization, only to find 
that everyone speaks perfect American English, and no-one even mentions the 
universal translator from the old show.  It takes away from the realism and 
suspension of disbelief (not to mention the fact that almost all the ridgie 
aliens look way too human).

Darn.  Roderick Elliott beat me to the goop-guns.  Oh, well.

Armand


------------------------------

From: "David E. Brooks Jr" <dbj@mpgn.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:45:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List for T4

On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, John R. Snead wrote:

> >Language (Specific)
> 
> I much prefer the MT Linguistics skill.  There are a whole bunch of languages
> in the Imperium.  making everyone buy specific skill levels in a 
> language either means no one will know more than at most two languages, 
> or anyone who learns more will have few other skills left to play with.

I think limiting the skill to individual languages is fine, as long as
there are guidelines (that is, modifiers) for allowing characters to
understand/speak related languages.  As an example, fluent speakers of
Spanish have a reasonable change of understanding and speaking some
Portugese given a little exposure.

Alternately, the language skill could be modified so it is actually a
skill in a language family.  Thus anyone with the Language(Terran Romance)
skill could communicate with anyone whose language is derived or
heaviliy influenced by Terran romance languages.  It's a little
unrealistic, but not terribly so.

- -- Dave

- --
David E. Brooks Jr / dbj@MPGN.COM | GCS/O d? H+(-) s:+ g+ a w++(--) v
Tantalus Incorporated             | C++ UU++++$ UO P+>+++ L+ E N+ W+>+++
Key West, FL                      | M- V- po Y+ t+(++) !5 !j R+(++)>+++ G'
+1 305 293 8100 x15               | tv- b+>++ D B- e u+ h--- f+ r+++ n y?


------------------------------

From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:47:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Draft Skills

lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse) said: 
> Thanks for posting this and allowing a sneak preview at the skills in T4.
> One omission I found in the skills was on related to Geology. I think this
> is one of the fundimental sciences....               ^^^^^^^
<snip>

>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>   Blair Lynch-Blosse, BSc (MSc student)         lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz
>   Earth Sciences Department
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
	Okay, while we're all revealing our personal academic 
affiliations, :-)  I'd like to point out that there is not a _single_ social 
science on the skill list. What about scouts or scholars who want to 
study the peculiar organization and customs of planets isolated during 
the Long Night?  Or identify the important power blocs on a new planet?  
Or an Imperial agent who wants to determine the economic might of 
potentially hostile pocket empires in the empires path?
	From a role-playing perspective, an Anthropology skill could be
used like the old Liason skill to avoid cultural conflicts.  Political 
Science could be used to determine whether a balkanized world would unite 
aganist the empire or whether individual states could be turned.  It 
could also be used to deduce, from the power structure of a world, what 
underground or opposition groups might exist and what sort of people 
might compose them.  Economics skill could help a character discover that 
a world's industrial output was not sufficient to support the military 
that it displayed and that it must therefore be receiving outside help.  
It could also be used by merchant characters to determine the best trade 
routes in a new area or the best goods for trading.
	I realize that many people who write sci-fi and many of the 
people who play sci-fi games are from "hard" science backgrounds, but if 
we want to attract new people to the game, maybe adventure plots and 
skills that went outside this traditional domain would help.
	Thanks for listening.

- --Muir
john35@assets.wharton.upenn.edu  :-)
	      ^^^^^^^

------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 12:31:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Social/Interactive skills

>Geology, Prospecting.
>
>As for the "Better when roleplayed" argument: I'd rather have them in the
>rules. It doesn't prevent good roleplaying, but it does back up the poorer
>roleplayers, and allows them to do it.

Skills are only tools for the players to use.  A good player with a single
skill will always out play a poor player with all the skills.  Somehow I
think to many people have the idea that the game is about skills.



>I'd also like to see Genetics.
>
>Medic/First Aid: Keep them separate, and add surgeon

In Classic Traveller a surgeon was an individual with Medic of 3 and a dex
of 9+.  I see no need to complicate the game with to much detail.  



>>Psychology*
>
>Will this be treating and understanding the mentally ill, or simply and 
>understanding of human (and alien) behavior?  I recommend the 2nd, 
>Traveller has always suffered from a lack of social/interactive skills

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -----------
Example of the use of a social/interactive skill during a traveller gaming
session:

GM:  You are standing before Luke Foobar, Arch Duke of the Zetta subsector.
What do you do?

Player:  I roll against my Wit/Charm skill!  I got a ten!!  Did I impress him?

GM:  Let me check the chart..  Why yes you did!  In fact he's so impressed
that he aggrees with your plan to use his private yacht as a pirate ship.
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
- ------------

Perhaps we should let players do the social interacting for themselves!  If
a player doesn't enjoy (or isn't very good) at roleplaying social events.
Then don't try to change the rules to make it easy for them, change the
settings, change the problems.  With practice the players will develope the
ability to deal with these roleplaying situations.

- -Daniel




------------------------------

From: Eric Nolan <ericno@MICROSOFT.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 05:30:26 -0700
Subject: Survey warning !

I'm doing a survey (I never thought I would).  Please reply directly to
me, unless you really feel the list would benefit.  I will compile the
replies when I feel I have enough.

Gerald S. Williams' <gsw@aloft.att.com> post was great.  It really
solidified the different things that might interest people about a game.
 Particulary an SF game like Traveller.

I'd be fascinated to see in what order the people on this list rate
these things (and that information could be useful to IGs also).  So
I've taken Geralds list and modified it a bit.  In order of importance,
please give a numerical rating from 1 to 10 (10 most important) to each
item.

Thanks,
Eric. (ericno@microsoft.com)

A.  "generic" SF gaming (ie:  what technology is available and how it
works and a set of rules which supports roleplaying in this environment)

B.  having a background with a great deal of history

C.  prepackaged adventures/hooks/etc.

Da.  designing ships/vehicles in detail

Db.  designing planets in detail

Dc.  designing weapons in detail

Dd.  designing people (ie: PCs, NPCs in detail)

Ea.  designing ships/vehicles quickly

Eb.  designing planets quickly

Ec.  designing weapons quickly

Ed.  designing people (ie: PCs, NPCs quickly)

Fa.  detailed lists of equipment/weapons

Fb.  detailed lists of ships

Fc.  detailed lists of planets

G.  solo gaming activities (eg: designing stuff, solo adventures, solo
wargame elements)

H.  role-playing (ie: are the PCs and NPCs detailed personalities or a
set of statistics - are the adventure elements clear cut mission type
affairs or more complex)

I.  roll-playing (ie., wargaming (space, ground etc.))

J.  Alien modules



Once again, please reply directly to me.  (ericno@microsoft.com)

------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 13:55:31 PDT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #62

 Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
[snipped]
>>  Also the more
>> skills in the game the less important are the players basic stats.
>> Also, in games with hundreds of skills the players tend to spend
most of

If you think Traveller as proposed has too many skills, I recommend
Over the Edge. It surrealistically has a maximum of three skills which
double as stats and the player makes them up, subject to approval by
the referee.

- --norm fenlason


------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:03:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Social/Interactive skills

Quoth Daniel:
> Skills are only tools for the players to use.  A good player with a single
> skill will always out play a poor player with all the skills.  Somehow I
> think to many people have the idea that the game is about skills.

This is an opinion not shared by all players of Traveller.  Skills are also
ways to define and diversify characters, encouragements to role-playing, and 
goads to the referee to create appropriate adventures ("Hm, let's give the
Priest of the Stellar Divinity something to use his Philosophy skill on....").

In GURPS games I have seen many poor players who take overspecialized characters
(ones with only a few skills, but highly-developed ones) distort adventures or
situations to fit their narrow conceptions, stealing the limelight and the fun
from players with more diverse but perhaps not as limitedly competent characters.

The game _is_ about skills, and the characters who possess them.  It's about the 
different personalities and backgrounds of the people being portrayed and how they
cope with the obstacles and dangers that the referee presents, not about "using"
them as "tools" of the players to work through some glorified Scott Adams Adventure.

IMNSHO.  :-)

> Example of the use of a social/interactive skill during a traveller gaming session:
> GM:     You are standing before Luke Foobar, Arch Duke of the Zetta subsector.
> Player: I roll against my Wit/Charm skill!  I got a ten!!  Did I impress him?
> GM:     Let me check the chart..  Why yes you did!  In fact he's so impressed
>         that he aggrees with your plan to use his private yacht as a pirate ship.

This is a disingenuous example!  Any referee worth his salt should be able to do 
better (roll the dice himself to over-ride an undesirable result, ask the Player
for at least a description of the tack she's taking with Wit/Charm and assess
appropriate modifiers, subtract for unlikely suggestions (like the above), etc.).

How about:

GM:     You're at the reception, and you see Archduke Luke Foobar by the gravshaft.
Player: Why isn't he circulating more widely?  What's wrong with him?
GM:     You don't know.  He's just standing there by himself with a drink in hand.
Player: I roll against my Psychology skill.  Do I notice anything unusual?
GM:     <rolls dice> Why, yes.  He's gazing with a rather baleful look at the
          Viscount d'Arcture, who's discussing his latest commercial success
          with quite a crowd of hangers-on.
Player: I sidle up to him and mutter something about how nice it would be if the
          Viscount were to meet with an accident.  I'll use my Charm/Wit skill.
GM:     <rolls dice> He looks at you with surprise and interest.  "Why, yes, it
          would," he says.  "Did you have anything in mind?"

Social and interactive skills _help_ players with deficiencies in these areas,
and provide the bridge to support them until they can do the sort of more
genuine role-playing that you advocate.  The trick is not to let dice rolls
_replace_ planning and ideas, but merely _supplement_ them.

For that matter, I've also seen social/interactive skills used to _limit_
players who are more suave than their characters.  If the actor is playing
a low-life bum, the referee can use the character's low social abilities to
justify treating him properly, even if the player has a silver tongue.  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 10:17:19 -0800
Subject: Re: Language

On  7 Jun 96 at 17:23, Stewart Eyres spewed:

> Hi there
> 
> Brief comment about the T4 Language skill.  The main problem with
> will need to scrifice other skills.  This doesn't fit in with my
> experience - a lot of people speak several languages while having as
> wide a range of skills as the next man - they can't all be geniuses!

You do have a point here...

> The point is, I think, that many languages are sufficiently related
> that once you learn one, others with a similar history don't require

There is a point at which your analysis breaks down.  There is a 
flaw in basing it on the European family of languages.  How much is 
the knowledge of Anglic going to help you in developing a knowledge 
of Old High Vilani, for example...  In the case of Europe, you're 
looking at a situation where in a day's drive you could tour 
enough land to encounter people who speak 6 or more different 
languages.  Not to mention the fact that 20th century Earth has 
instantaneous communications.  Frankly, without FTL communications, 
its almost certain that "Anglic" would evolve into a new language on 
worlds without a lot of interstellar contact.

To use your example, how much would the knowledge of German help you 
to learn Mandarin Chinese.  These languages developed on the same 
world.  Now imagine it on an interstellar scale.  I for one like the 
skill to be language specific...  

Your ideas on language group does have some merit, but would add 
another layer of complexity.  Still it is food for thought.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 15:47:06 -0500
Subject: FFS Lite

Hi, everyone.  I'm returning to the game after about a 10 year hiatus (couldn't find
anyone to play after I got out of the good ol' USN) so my background is pretty much
straight CT.  However, when I started trying to get a group together here at the Black
Hole of Missouri, the general feeling seemed to be that the biggest problem wasn't so
much any given set of rules as it was the many different versions out there (CT, MT, 
TNE).  Anyway, here are a few thoughts on the whole FFSLite thing.  (And it *does*
need another name!  Maybe FFS Standard and FFS Professional after MS (tm)?  NOOO!! 
I'm just KIDDING!! Don't shoo .. AAAAHHGGGG!!)

I like the concept of FFSL a lot.  I found these groups late, so I missed the survey.  
I was delighted when HG came out because I love to design custom starships.  I even had
a ref. who let me run a Nav. Arch. character.  But I don't think that 100% accuracy in 
technical theory or detail is *required* to make Trav. a good RPG.  After all, how
accurate would 1900's (TL 5-6) descriptions of TL 8 technology be?  And we're trying to 
jump ?000 years and 7 to 10 TL's ahead!  I would like to see a self-consistent set of 
rules and scientific assumptions which optimize playability without overtly upsetting 
what scientific understanding we can claim to have.  But this doesn't mean that my 
players (or myself) have to be whiz-bang technonerds! I'm a bit of a gearhead my self 
(6 yr as a submarine mechanic and working on my MS in Nuc. Eng.) but my time is *very* 
limited (married plus MS work plus GRA not related to thesis plus ...) so somthing on the 
order of HG in difficulty would be just about right.

I think that the 6-day deadline on coming up with something is *very* unfortunate.  I
realize that there are limitations, but do we want to do this right, or what?  Anyhow,
a lot of my comments are probably moot, since the thing has been forced to take shape
by time damands, but here they are anyway.  If anything I say is *stoopid* due to my
lack of experience with MT, TNE, & FFS, I won't be offended if you say so, just so you
don't try to say _I_ am stupid.  OBTW, I like the civilized tone of this group! (If you 
want to reply re: my comments, please feel free to nuke everything above here!)


First off, I feel that one of the strengths of the HG system was that everything (pretty
much) was done as a factor (or maybe a 1st order polynomial) of the ship's displacement.
IMHO, if the ship could be designed this way, it would allow more variety than the 
'standard' hull sizes concept, which I always saw as a major weakness of book 2.  For
instance, your basic 'non-gearhead' doesn't really care what material the hull/armor is
made of at a given TL.  If TL effects on mass, volume, and price could disappear into 
TL based multiplication factors for these items, it should allow more flexibility and 
fewer (or smaller) tables, without limiting upgradability to FFS.

Similarly, other (non-weapons) items could (?) be based on ship's displacement (or mass) 
as applicable, e.g. command space (bridge), fuel purification, etc.

BTW, what was ever the justfication for making computers so bloody large?  Maybe a 
plateau to the rate of growth of their capabilities?

Weapons are more complicated.  Maybe just a few standard sized mounts with standard 
weapons and UPP factors based on tech level?  Obviously, this is an area where some
standardization will have to limit selection to keep it simple.  It seems to be going
in this direction with the requests for designs of bay weapons et. al.

Speaking of weapons, I like the idea which was mentioned of using the old 1 hardpoint 
per 100Td rule, maybe with a multiplication factor based on hull configuration.  More
'thumbrules' like this are what I think might be needed, as long as they don't break
FFS rules.  Maybe the thumb rule (standard) designs would receive a discount at the 
shipyard, while full priced 'custom' designs could have all the advantages of FFS.


One thing that I think needs to be remembered is that we're looking for the *BASIC* game.
The beauty of the original boxed set of CT (IMHO) was that anyone who was likely to get
interested in the game could pick the rules up in an evening.  If basic T4 comes out at 
this level, we can always add to it.  We do need to maintain compatability though!

Well that's enough babbling on this topic.  Feel free to flame my opinions at will, they're 
quite heat resistant!  But do try to explain any disagreements.

Thanks,

Matt McL

------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:53:00 PDT
Subject: Re: Social/Interactive skills

>In GURPS games I have seen many poor players who take overspecialized
characters
>(ones with only a few skills, but highly-developed ones) distort
adventures or
>situations to fit their narrow conceptions, stealing the limelight and
the fun
>from players with more diverse but perhaps not as limitedly competent
characters.
>
>The game _is_ about skills, and the characters who possess them.  It's
about the 
>different personalities and backgrounds of the people being portrayed
and how they
>cope with the obstacles and dangers that the referee presents, not
about "using"
>them as "tools" of the players to work through some glorified Scott
Adams Adventure.

Here, here!!! Just try playing Dark Conspiracy with a Small Arms skill.


- --norm fenlason


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:27:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: FF&S Light Guidelines from Don Perrin (fwd)

On reading the continuing "Fusion Plus" discussion, I am reminded of an 
e-mail I fired off to David Golden about a week ago regarding guidelines 
for the new design system and some 'hooks' the IG folks were attempting 
to work into the Milieu 0 scenario, specifically the benefits of the 
former Sylean Confederation's (now Third Imperium's) advanced 
technology.  From the start, I've felt that the whole concept of "Fusion 
Plus" which, as initially presented, is an advance in fusion power 
technology that finally makes it possible for small craft (hulls less 
than 100 tons) to be run on fusion power, is artificial, unnecessary, 
somewhat hackneyed, and ultimately creates more problems than it solves.

I feel that the fusion power plant tables/formulae, as presented in FF&S, 
ought to be transplanted into T4 without modification.  They are more 
generous than any prior rules system, especially in regards to fuel 
consumption, and ought not to be made more so in order to support "Fusion 
Plus."  The advances in efficiency and minimum size owing to advances in 
relevant technology are already included in the table -- that phenomenon 
doesn't need to be further tweaked in.

An excerpt of my e-mail to David Golden follows:

- -----

> 5) Fusion power plants are one thing that needs fixing in FF&S. One of the
> "hooks" in the Milieu 0 setting is the idea of "Fusion Plus." Ok, it's not a
> very catchy phrase, but here's the basic idea. The commonly available fusion
> plants are big. You really can't build them small enough for a fighter, for
> example. The Imperium, with a common TL of 11 but a military TL of 12 has
> had a technology breakthrough which allows them to build much smaller plants
> that can fit into fighters (or other small craft). The new plants don't
> produce more power per unit mass; you can just build them smaller. One of
> the reasons many "pocket empires" are willing to join the Imperium is this
> technology. 

Why this arbitrary distinction?  Sure, there are many other benefits to 
joining a higher-tech civilization, but is being able to FINALLY have 
small craft going to be the Great Big Impetus that leads to the growth of 
the Sylean Confederation and the inception of the Third Imperium?  Come 
on!  The History of Future Past has already been outlined, so don't bother 
yourselves with such a piddling detail.  There are so many other 
advantages to higher tech besides this totally artificial distinction 
about "Fusion Plus."  Hell, the sticks and stones folks will already be 
wowed by the higher power density, better laser performance, improved 
sensor performance, ad infinitim, ad nauseam, possible by tying their 
fortunes to a dynamic, advancing TL-12 society.  They won't be jumping 
around yelling "Martha, I can finally get my 50-ton cutter off the 
ground!"  They'll be muttering "gee, we'd better make nice so's they 
don't use those nifty lasers on us!"

The fusion power plant table doesn't need fixing as much as IG's list of 
Milieu 0 hooks does.  Just figure out what the other, minimal power 
requirements are for a 100-ton ship using only 1-G drives, no lasers, no 
active sensors or other power-hungry items, and set the minimum size 
figure on the table so that you can't build a smaller ship unless you're 
willing to sacrifice crew comfort, cargo capacity, and profitability just 
so that you can accomodate a fusion plant.  Of course, someone might 
decide that it's really important that, in addition to all their 
shipboard systems, they also be able to power an average sized city, or 
three and a half discos.  Basically, don't worry too much about it.  
There are plenty of other advantages to higher technology that you don't 
need to go out of your way to come up with such a stale, transparent, and 
ultimately useless hook as "Fusion Plus."

Think about it:  Are there not plenty of alternatives for those who want 
to power a ship of less than 100 displacement tons?  How about nuclear 
fission, or fuel cells, or batteries?  Is the advantage of finally having 
a fusion plant small enough to run the dingy really big enough to have 
all of Charted Space beating down the Syleans doors?

- -----

So there it is.  "Fusion Plus" is an unnecessary hook.  There are many 
other things that the Third Imperium can do bigger, better, faster, more 
efficiently, and in a more pleasing range of colors and styles, than its 
surrounding neighbors can.  Hell, the ability to do Jump-2 (starting at 
TL-11) would probably be an even bigger sensation than the ability to 
run a cutter all year on two kegs of liquid hydrogen.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 17:33:50 -0400
Subject: Re: T4 Character Types

At 09:16 AM 6/7/96 MST7, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>>       Travel Agent

>No no no, Rob, there are none of those...along with the phone 
>sanitizers and other sundry types, they were sent off to Andromeda in 
>generation ship eons ago...

I think you missed the humor here:

    [Travel = Traveller] agent.  Its a pun.

;-)

Rob
- --
Rob Miracle
TanSoft.com
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 14:34:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Laser Canon (get it?)

> The TL*50 rule on DE was added by the beta list.  It was never in print
> in FFS.  That was my point, dstraight FFS allows as much DE as you want
> for a laser.

Well, that's as good a fix as any, I'd say.  There's plenty of rationale 
for it to:  Optics at a given TL can only handle so much energy density.  
I've heard that one of the problems with contemporary UV lasers is that 
contemporary reflecting and cooling technology can't deal with the heat 
they impart on reflecting surfaces.  Basically, the tiny amount of energy 
absorbed (and radiated as heat) is enough to cook the coatings right off.

Still, I could SWEAR that I've seen that rule in print somewhere, and not 
just on TML.  This is going to cause me a lot of sleepless nights.  
Besides, I've already used it.  The PC's wanted to put a Laser Barbette 
of Doom on their ship; I told them they were welcome to try to buy a 
reconditioned 700 Mj barbette from the Navy or search out a supplier of 
750 Mj models, but that was it.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest            Friday, 7 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 067

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Skills
         2. CT rules
         3. Re: skills (again)
         4. skills
         5. Computer, Robots and AIs
         6. Re: Draft Skill List
         7. Number of skills
         8. Re: Language
         9. Re: Language
        10. Jets
        11. Re: Language
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #63
        13. Re: Draft Skill List for T4

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:43:03 -0500
Subject: Skills

Howdy!  This is just a bit of an overview of my views on the skills thing.  I just got done 
waxing philisophical (or not) on T4 and some basic ideas I have in a mailing re: FFS Lite, 
so I'll keep this a bit shorter.  I'm not going to comment on every skill (which doesn't 
mean I like or dislike any given one), but make a few more general comments.

IMHO, in keeping with the idea of a *BASIC* T4 that can be sold to a new (and non-gearhead) 
audience, we don't need to get overly complicated in defining all the skills. Maybe a 
supplemental publication on skills ... ?

As a for instance, let's look at medical.  For many of us, the following worked well enough: 
   Med-0 = mother kisses knee and puts on bandaid and knows not to put tournequet (sp?) 
around neck, 
   Med-1 = standard 1st aid such as taught in the military, 
   Med-2 = EMT/field medic, 
   Med-3 = (basic) doctor.
For others, splitting into specialties at Med-3 (or 4) and taking partial skills in other 
areas seems good.  e.g.: My combat doctor character (Admin-1, Medic-6, GC(Pistol)-5, ..., 
not necessarily a pacifist ;) ) specialized in Trauma(effective level 6), has a related 
ability of 5 in (Macro-)Surgery, and maybe a 4 in other specialties.  

Computer has also been commented on.  Face it, your average non-chiphead (not in this 
mailing list; maybe an MD who cares a lot about the preceeding) doesn't know and couldn't 
care less about the differences between hardware and software, much less AI, operations, 
programming, etc.  While most of us know that there are a lot of (critical) difference, they 
won't reduce playability if the group involved don't care about them.  ( ref: 'OK, the 
spaceport supervisor's left his office to check out your little diversion.  Yes, his 
terminal's powered up.'  player: 'I've got comp-4, and I'm looking for the last month's 
cargo manifests.  (out of character) I don't know if it's AI, operations, or programming!  
I'm a psychologist, for Pete's sake!!)

This wasn't well developed, but shows what I mean.  Most players have areas of greater or 
lesser interest, and this will be reflected in which skills they wish to expand.  Maybe a 
rule that any skill at a given level (4?) or higher must be specialized.  After all, my BS 
in Nuc Eng was very general, covering Health Physics, Fission power, fusion theory, 
requlatory concerns, waste management, radiochemestry, and a number of lesser topics.  My MS 
work, on the other hand, is concentrating on radwaste remediation, and specifically 
groundwater transport of nuclides.  However, I've gained a lot of experience in researching 
and (with time and a successful research task?) could expand my knowledge in other areas to
meet or exceed that in my area of specialization.

I think it is definitely necessary to have a limited number of canon skills, particularly 
for the first release.  After all, you could have 200+ skills, and each of us would still 
find something we'd like to add.  Limit the basic (official) amount, and allow refs to add 
via house rules.  It may, however, be a good idea to require new skills to have a canon 
skill to which they are identified for transplant to other games.  (I know this isn't always 
practical, but wouldn't it be nice?)

Default skills: how about a default number (6? 10?) of default 'slots' which a player could 
select skills for?  Those skills not available for default (battledress!, etc.) would be 
identified.  Others would be limited by background (vacc suit-0 not likely for a ground hog, 
unless a SCUBA diver).  Most players would not have bow skill, but I've messed around with 
them enough to have a bow-0, without living on a TL 5- planet.  This would allow a lot of 
background development without a lot of time, effort, or effect on game balance.

Comments on a few skills:

Armorer:  One who works in an armory?  IMHO, both (small) weapons and armor.  Low levels 
imply can maintain effectively, ensure continue to work, fit to individuals.  Higher levels 
allow repair, possibly with mech/electronics/computer/etc. skills as required/beneficial.  
Also maybe customize to an individual to improve effectiveness (after SORAG) or reduce 
encumbrance.  Only at very high levels, with additional skills, TL/item-specific training, 
and proper tools/materials/workshop would creation be possible.  Of course, may allow use of 
non-standard materials to simulate (limited) armor capability.  Higher levels may require 
cascading to weapons(slug/laser/energy) and armor(cloth/hard (ceramic, metal, etc.)/power).

Fencing:  If swordplay, this might be a high level speciallization under blade combat.  If 
dealing with grey goods, maybe streetwise?

Regarding some of the particular skills people are asking for, it seems possible to have a 
supplement which spells out some additional skills.  Alternativley, combinations of skills 
which give the desired effect.  (e.g. GC(Cbt Rfl)-3 + Vacc-2 + Elect-3 + Mech-2 = Armorer-2)
Once again, you'll never make everyone happy.  I, for instance, find a single skill for 
Engineering to be ludicrous!  But it needn't affect playability.  A few score skills which 
are fairly abstract seems a good idea for the basic version of T4.

That's all for now - for what it's worth! ;)


Matt McL

------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 16:45:15 -0500
Subject: CT rules

Earlier info on T4 implied that CT rules/supplements/etc. would be 
useful under T4.  Is this still the intent?  And will there be info 
avail. on the specific diffs between them?

Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 17:17:34 -0500
Subject: Re: skills (again)

>
>>  Also the more
>> skills in the game the less important are the players basic stats.
>
>Exactly! Only, I see that as an *advantage*. I don't like games where 
>the sole determinant of a character's abilities are the basic stats. 
>I prefer games where change is possible.

I always thought the sole determinat of a characters abitities to be the
experience and problem solving skill of the player.  A good player with one
skill will always beat a bad player with all the skills!

Only the GM should view the players skill list and stats as limiting
factors.  If a PC has to fix a radio and doesn't have electronics skill the
easy answer is to find someone who does.  Not change the system so that
every PC can fix radios.

Change was possible in CT, it had rules for gaining new skills and skill
levels.  And with the introduction of Instruction skill it became even
easier to gain skills.  Maybe that's why the limit of Int + Educ was included.

>>  One of the best rules of GT
>> was the Int + Educ limit to the number of skills a player could know.
>
>And I ***HATED*** that rule. Didn't feel it made any sense 
>whatsoever. But then, it was easy to rip it out of the rules... ;-)

Maybe Marc can comment on why that rule was in CT and (hopefully) tell us
that it will still be in T4!

- -Daniel


------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 17:16:24 -0500
Subject: skills

Jerry said
> ...
> I think the best thing to do is create a Scholar skill where you take
> it and declare what you're a Scholar in.  This will allow anything
> from comic books to religion to works of art.  The effects for each
> are the same, the more knowledge you have in a subject, the better you
> can dig for details or relate the topic to someone else.
>
> This also allows some customization based on campaign and character.
> Instead of having an exhaustive list of skills, you can just have stuff
> like Scholar, Scientist, etc, where the rules work the same.  Provide
> some examples for the players and GM's and things get really easy.
> 
>      --Jerry

This sounds great to me!  There are a lot of areas where this concept could be applicable.


Matt

------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 00:34:05 +0200
Subject: Computer, Robots and AIs

Hi!

This is my suggestion how to handle computers and robots in Traveller. It
probably violates the canon, so feel free to criticize.

Computers become common at TL7. Prior to this TL they only count as
experimental. At TL8 one could expect a world wide computer information
network. Both TLs use only silicium-chip based systems. Computer programs
are primitive, userunfriendly and prone to errors. Computer systems are used
for data storage and processing but no complicate calculations like jump
point determination can be computed. Input devices are mainly keyboards or
(at TL8) pointing-devices. Output devices are (at TL8: color) screens and
paper line-printers. Best personal computers at TL8 are small laptops (about
3kg). Common personal computer capactiy: TL7: 0,01-0,1GB, TL8: 0,1-1 GB.

At TL9 standards make computer programs exchangeable. Because of some bad
experiences with defective programs, a paragim shift in software development
occures and programs are built of correctness-proven components. This slows
down component development and makes software expensive but it's the only
way to go. Although TL9 computers are 10 times faster than TL8 (which again
are 10 times faster than TL7) the new software architecture will eat up this
speed gain and computer system have an overall working speed similar to TL8
systems. Besides conventional chip-technology, self-connecting neuronal
computer systems are introduced (experimental). Computing speed is still not
powerful enough to do complicate calculations. Input devices are now speech
(very basic), touchscreens and keyboards. Output devices are flat high-color
screens and fast paper page-printer. Personal computers are so called
Consoles (2kg), computers build into paper-sized (21mm x 29,7mm) flat
touchscreens connected via infrared link to the world wide network. Common
capacity: 1-10 GB.

At TL10 there are now two kinds of computer architectures: super fast
processing chips (based conventional chips or (at higher cost) optical
effects) and self connecting neuronal network chips. The first kind of
systems has reached a processing speed needed to calculate jump points or to
do weather prediction. Of course, the much more greater effort had to be
spent on the right ideas and software. Huge systems of massive-parallel fast
Supercomps have to be connected to do such calculations. The needed software
is the work of a lot of genius scientists, written with the help of other
computer systems. The other kind of computer is used to simulate human brain
activity. The dream of AIs is still alive and still unreached. Neurocomps
are used for all kind of regulating-software and for building simple robots
(experimental). Because especially Neurocomps are very susceptible to
radiation and Supercomps have more calculation power, starships use these
conventional computers. In society, small computer become useful tools built
into nearly any device. (They're as common as cars today.) TL9 experimental
virtual reality programs are make perfect and become a common spare time
attraction. TL9 experimental human-computer- interfacecs are dropped (just
to avoid cyberpunk-like gear). Military is quite suspective about TL10
computers and stays with TL9 systems relaying more on humans than on
machines. I/O devices are the same as TL9 but speech recognation is settled
and speech output is common. Personal computers are most powerful Consoles
(1kg) with included folio-printer with reusable folios instead of paper.
Common capacity: 10 GB.

AT TL11 and 12 computer technology seems to reach its end. Supercomps became
more efficient, but only the latest TL12 computer has 10 times the power of
a TL10 one. Neurocomps obtain great improvements, they get cheaper and
smaller. Their computing capacity at TL12 is that of a TL10 Supercomp.
Software technology is still behind hardware technology and accients will
lower the peoples interest on computers. Software is written by three
different groups. Most people connect existing building blocks or
parameterize. This works by speech control. Some people write new software
blocks by connecting subblocks. This is called (graphical) programming.
Complex testing programs exists to help this affort. A few real programmers
write software that is then transformed with the help of development
programs to subblocks. About a dozen programming languages exists (which
have an abstaction level as for example a modern graphical design tool).
Beginning with TL12, computer networks will exchange calculation capacity.
Fast networks will make this transparent to the user.

At TL13, holographic output devices are developped and computer technology
is adjusted to utilize this devices. Neurocomps have now the capacity of
TL12 Supercomps. Faster optical-based computers replace electron-based
systems. Ship computers have now about half the size of a TL10 computer. To
calculate a jump point, the ship's computer, a network of 5-6 Supercomps and
Neurocomps tries at least 4 different algorithms to gain the needed safety
factor, retrying if some calculations differ. The algorithms are all of
heuristacal nature but improved since centuries. Robots become useful and
are introduced to the mass market. A Perscomp, a personal computer has the
size of a cigaret box (0,3kg) and uses a holographic output device and
speech input. It has only 1 GB capacity, but will contact other computers
for help. Because TL13+ computers can now break most codes in days, Imperial
bureaucracy distance more and more from computer technology. Information is
often exchanged but transfering the whole computers and not the data because
that's safer.

With TL14 and TL15, experimental biological computers become reality as
computer implantats to animals do. They have the power of TL9 Neurocomps.
Robot-programs are made perfect. Simu-AIs are possible. They have no self
awareness but are very good simulations of human behavior pattern. Computer
databases store now data of 1000-100000 GB.

On TL16, it is possible to build robots with human-like Biocomp-brains which
could be trained and instructed as real humans. AIs become reality. At TL17,
they can be built into robots.

At TL17 and beyond, synaptic links are possible and computers can be
connected with human brains. Computers work now at the speed of light and
have great self-programming capabilities.

AT TL20+ it's possible to build artificial life forms of any kind. Computer
have incredible knowlege because of access to myriads of information and
unbelievable computing power.


>From TL7 to TL9 the only common form of robots are primitive industry
robots. beginning with TL10, the first true robots (after Asimov's models)
are built. However, they have to be remote controlled.

Beginning with TL11, robot technology is supported by the Imperium to get
cheap soldiers or worker to settle new worlds. The first real successes are
made at TL12. Now robots are autonomous and able to perform simple tasks.
The military doesn't take long and abandon robots as soldiers after some
disappointing experiences. From there on, they are strictly against massive
usage of robots in the Imperium. An additional point for rejection is the
use of Robots by the Zhodani, robots are distrusted.

TL13 is the high of the usage of robots in the empire. In the year 298,
Makhidkarum Megacorp introduces the first autonomous robots.

I haven't cross-checked this list with Book 8: Robots but wrote this without
exact Traveller knowledge.  Key-event I looked up where the TL13 holographic
devices, the TL13 robots and the TL17 AIs. I still have the feeling that
TL14+ computers and robots are too familiar and some improvements could be made.

bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 00:34:00 +0200
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List

Hi!

One last comment onto the drafted skill list. Interestingly, even native
speaker come up with different meanings for some skills :-) To reduce this
confusion, I would suggest to try to keep the skill names as simple as
possible, even if this means to avoid military technical terms.

It also could be helpful not to build skill names from occupations (as
forward observer or armorer) but to use names that describes the activity
(Repair (weapons) or Forward observing{?}) The majority of skill names
already follows the descriptive approach.

bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 00:34:02 +0200
Subject: Number of skills

Jonas Karlsson answered to...

>> Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>

who replied to someone else...

>> >To me, the number of skill is unimportant.  There can be hundreds for all 
>> >I care.
>> 
>> Hundreds!  Then the game becames a record keeping nightmare.
>
>Not neccessarily. Look at games like Gurps, all it takes is a decent 
>character sheet. Me, I like the variety.

GURPS, in my oppinion, lacks from the problem of too much skills. Combined
with the free character creation process it's a nightmare for me to build a
character or worse, have to watch other people building their characters.
For occasional players, it's much easier to handle characters with less skills.

>>  Also the more
>> skills in the game the less important are the players basic stats.
>
>Exactly! Only, I see that as an *advantage*. I don't like games where 
>the sole determinant of a character's abilities are the basic stats. 
>I prefer games where change is possible.

Here, I've to agree with Jonas. I also like games more, where basic
attributes aren't that important. However, you haven't to enlarge the skill
set but only to use better rules to prefent overimportance of basic attributes.

>>  One of the best rules of GT
>> was the Int + Educ limit to the number of skills a player could know.
>
>And I ***HATED*** that rule. Didn't feel it made any sense 
>whatsoever. But then, it was easy to rip it out of the rules... ;-)

A somewhat artificial relic rule to equalize player characters somewhat, I
believe. It should be needed in T4, I hope.

bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 00:34:04 +0200
Subject: Re: Language

Hi!

>Brief comment about the T4 Language skill.  The main problem with
>making this a single skill per language is that if you have a
>restrictions on the number of skill levels, a multi-lingual character
>will need to scrifice other skills.

Languages could be cheaper to aquire or could be defaulted on each other as
a cascade skill.

Another solution would be that a character with Language-3 would know three
additional foreign languages, all at skill-2 (language skill minus 1). Okay,
a bit unrealistic, but simple. (And that's my excuse for nearly everything :-)

>The point is, I think, that many languages are sufficiently related
>that once you learn one, others with a similar history don't require
>as much of your "skill quota".  Thus, someone who speaks Italian and
>German will have an easier time picking up other European languages.

Well, theoretically yes, but in your example no :-) Italian is a Romance
language but German not. If you know Latin, you could read some Italian
texts and figure out its meaning, but you can't speak it. For example Danish
and Swedish are similar, Northern German ("Plattdeutsch") is similar to
Dutch and in lesser extent also to medieval English. Finish, although, is a
language not related to other languages.

To know and understand different dialects of the same or of similar
languages it would be sufficient to use the cascade skill rule, I would say.
Perhaps you woudn't cover these dialects with rules at all. To handle the
knowledge of very different languages (as for example German and Chinese or
Imperial and Aslan) one has probably to sacrify additional skill points.

bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:15:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Language

Quoth Stefan Matthias Aust:
> Finish, although, is a language not related to other languages.

What about Hungarian?  (It's also part of the "Finno-Ugric Family").

We know that the Terran Confederation and Rule of Man were characterized
by colonization by ethnic enclaves, so a lot of planets probably speak,
or at least use terms derived from, Terran non-Galanglic-precursor
languages.  In the millenium and more of the Long Night, I shudder to
think how many possible combinations and distortions of Vilani and
Anglic probably occured (linguists would have a ball with all the pidgins 
and creoles that would have appeared!).  And each minor race, both human
and non-, also has its own language (Suerrat, Geonee, Newt, Virushi....).

Of course, this is the Far Future, so language instruction has probably
been improved significantly.  In the interest of color and playability,
I think a single Language skill would work well.  It would allow the
possessing character to speak n languages (where n = skill level), one
at n, one at n-1, and so on, _or_ n/2, say, at skill level n/2.  So 
players could rank which languages they were best at, but not automatically
be savants.  This is just a thought: I've by no means playtested it.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

From: prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:27:23 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Jets

>What about rocket propulsion for aircraft. German's did in
>WWII.

Rockets use Jet propulsion.

Tariq
- ----------------------------------------------------------
               T & P Rashid International
Providing Name Brand Products & Services Wholesale & Retail
            
            "A Better Way to do Business"

For more info contact us at       Stay tuned for CyberStores 
prashid@gulf.net                           coming soon!

- ------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 17:38:51 -0700
Subject: Re: Language

At 05:23 PM 6/7/96 +0100, you wrote:
>Hi there
>
>Brief comment about the T4 Language skill.  The main problem with
>making this a single skill per language is that if you have a
>restrictions on the number of skill levels, a multi-lingual character
>will need to scrifice other skills.  This doesn't fit in with my
>experience - a lot of people speak several languages while having as
>wide a range of skills as the next man - they can't all be geniuses!
>
>The point is, I think, that many languages are sufficiently related
>that once you learn one, others with a similar history don't require
>as much of your "skill quota".  Thus, someone who speaks Italian and
>German will have an easier time picking up other European languages.
>Perhaps a language group which counts against the "skill quota", with
>for example learning languages of different races or cultures with
>radically different histories being a seperate group.
>

I think that perhaps the point we should all be looking at here is not how
many points a person has put into a language as when the language was
learned.  It has been proven that children are much more capable of learning
additional languages than are adults to this end perhaps we should say that
any languages learned as background skills (we can't ditch these they are
the skills that define our characters as individuals) should convay upon the
character total fluency where as any language learned after the character
begins generation, i.e. while the character is in career development, should
be bought at a point per level of proficiency.

This pretty much models the way we as human beings learn languages, if we
learn a number before we have mastered our native tounge we are not bound by
the conceptions of language that we hold to be true.

Derek


------------------------------

From: jmg141@psu.edu (John M Gardner)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 20:41:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #63

>"Fire Mission.  I have five-zero infantry, with three wheeled APC moving
>south along road 19.  Grid reference TW25498792.  Mix HE-Airburst and
>FASCAM.  5 rounds

Bravo 2-6-Siera, this is Romeo 64;    shot, over.


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 17:45:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List for T4

At 12:45 PM 6/7/96 -0400, you wrote:
>On Thu, 6 Jun 1996, John R. Snead wrote:
>
>> >Language (Specific)
>> 
>> I much prefer the MT Linguistics skill.  There are a whole bunch of languages
>> in the Imperium.  making everyone buy specific skill levels in a 
>> language either means no one will know more than at most two languages, 
>> or anyone who learns more will have few other skills left to play with.
>
>I think limiting the skill to individual languages is fine, as long as
>there are guidelines (that is, modifiers) for allowing characters to
>understand/speak related languages.  As an example, fluent speakers of
>Spanish have a reasonable change of understanding and speaking some
>Portugese given a little exposure.
>
>Alternately, the language skill could be modified so it is actually a
>skill in a language family.  Thus anyone with the Language(Terran Romance)
>skill could communicate with anyone whose language is derived or
>heaviliy influenced by Terran romance languages.  It's a little
>unrealistic, but not terribly so.

The problem we are dealing with here in the Imperium is not languages which
have originated on a single planet but rather languages which have been
developed on a multitued of planets in responce to a myrid of different
environmental conditions.  These languages would be completely unrelated to
any other in the universe.

It would be like trying to teach a Spaniard, Basque.  Though both of the
languages are found in the same geographic area, the Iberian Peninsula, the
tounges are completely unrelated, in fact basque is unrealted to any other
known language on the face of the planet.  A totally indepentent development.

I don't think a Terran native would have a hope in hell of understanding a
Vilani with a knowledge of Terran languages and imagine the havoc that would
insue when he encountered a Zhodani.  He'd be totally screwed.

Derek


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 8 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 068

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Draft Skills
         2. Re: T4 Guns
         3. Re: Jets
         4. Re: Computer, Robots and AIs
         5. Re: Jets
         6. (LONG) Chuck's New And Improved Skill List
         7. Skills that should be roleplayed.
         8. Message formatting request
         9. Another non-lethal weapon proposal
        10. Sandbag jellies (oops)
        11. Re: Skills that should be roleplayed.
        12. FO's & "Space" strikes...
        13. Re: Draft Skill List

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 17:51:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Draft Skills

At 12:47 PM 6/7/96 -0400, you wrote:
>
>lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz (B Lynch-Blosse) said: 
>> Thanks for posting this and allowing a sneak preview at the skills in T4.
>> One omission I found in the skills was on related to Geology. I think this
>> is one of the fundimental sciences....               ^^^^^^^
><snip>
>
>>  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>   Blair Lynch-Blosse, BSc (MSc student)         lynchblo@waikato.ac.nz
>>   Earth Sciences Department
>    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>	Okay, while we're all revealing our personal academic 
>affiliations, :-)  I'd like to point out that there is not a _single_ social 
>science on the skill list. What about scouts or scholars who want to 
>study the peculiar organization and customs of planets isolated during 
>the Long Night?  Or identify the important power blocs on a new planet?  
>Or an Imperial agent who wants to determine the economic might of 
>potentially hostile pocket empires in the empires path?
>	From a role-playing perspective, an Anthropology skill could be
>used like the old Liason skill to avoid cultural conflicts.  Political 
>Science could be used to determine whether a balkanized world would unite 
>aganist the empire or whether individual states could be turned.  It 
>could also be used to deduce, from the power structure of a world, what 
>underground or opposition groups might exist and what sort of people 
>might compose them.  Economics skill could help a character discover that 
>a world's industrial output was not sufficient to support the military 
>that it displayed and that it must therefore be receiving outside help.  
>It could also be used by merchant characters to determine the best trade 
>routes in a new area or the best goods for trading.
>	I realize that many people who write sci-fi and many of the 
>people who play sci-fi games are from "hard" science backgrounds, but if 
>we want to attract new people to the game, maybe adventure plots and 
>skills that went outside this traditional domain would help.
>	Thanks for listening.
>
>--Muir
>john35@assets.wharton.upenn.edu  :-)

Yeah!!!  Absolutely right.  These are cultures that have been isolated for
hundreds of years.  There's a fair amount of time for indepented development
there.  Imagine how much the language has changed, not to mention the
cultural beleifs and such.  Mind boggling.

Derek


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 00:52:29 GMT
Subject: Re: T4 Guns

On Thu, 6 Jun 1996 11:52:38 -0400, you wrote:

=3D> I fully agree with Greg Porter=92s proposal that the source of
=3D> damage be ammunition rather than the gun.

True to a point, since barrel length also has a significant effect.  Pe=
rhaps
list damage according to ammo type, with damage modifiers for each weap=
on?

=3D> Civilian Weapons
=3D> Body Pistol. Flat plastic pistol. Passes through metal detectors. =
Fume proof
=3D> to avoid sniffers. Flat self contained chamber bar ratchets up (us=
ed portions
=3D> can be broken off after a battle). 6 rounds. Ceramic bullets. Enti=
rely hand
=3D> operated (not semi-auto).

Excuse me?  Weapons that can pass undetected through metal detectors or=
 chemical
sniffers should not be considered Civilian Weaponry in any campaign.  E=
ven
today's Glock line of pistols (which raised a significant stink years a=
go and
was wrongly described in Die Hard 2) can be easily spotted by today's *=
trained*
airport metal detector operators.  What dictates civilian and military =
weaponry
apart is usually the Law Level of a world in any case.

=3D> Snub. Fires a 4 or 5 mm cartridge; odd number of rounds (like 11 o=
r 13),
=3D> rotation of the cylinder skips a cylinder (mechanical reasons). Hi=
 velocity
=3D> rounds.

This description differs from what I have always understood about snub =
pistols
(revolvers hold 6 rounds while automatics hold 10/20 rounds; low veloci=
ty for
beter control in zero gravity; 10mm HE, HEAP, or tranq rounds).


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 01:40:02 GMT
Subject: Re: Jets

On Fri, 7 Jun 1996 19:27:23 -0500 (CDT), you wrote:

=> >What about rocket propulsion for aircraft. German's did in
=> >WWII.
=> 
=> Rockets use Jet propulsion.

Actually, rockets use "rocket propulsion" like the V2 or Saturn V.  The V1 *Buzz
Bomb* used "jet propulsion".

------------------------------

From: peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold)
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 21:51:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Computer, Robots and AIs

>awareness but are very good simulations of human behavior pattern. Computer
>databases store now data of 1000-100000 GB.
>

Gee... does this mean we're at TL14 or TL15 in the computer arena now?  I
don't think so... what I'm referring to is the fact that we have 100TB
databases in existance now. In fact, I'm working on a project now that is
going to call for 50Tb (50000Gb) in three different locations for a total of
150Tb. 

By TL14, my prediction is that you'll be able to fit that much data in what
is now being stored in the same footprint as 9Gb disks today.  At that point
100Tb databases are going to be child's play.  In fact, I'm even wondering
if they are going to dispense with the byte count measurements of database
sizes and use some other not yet considered measurement...

       _]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]
      _] Peter L. Berghold               INTERNET: berghop@tcg.com      _]
     _] FAX: (718) 355-4282                 -or- peterb@superlink.net  _]
_] PHONE: (718) 355-2722         UUCP: tcgny!berghold@uunet.uu.net_]
   _] Sr. Unix Specialist, TCG MIS Dept.                             _]    
  _] "Those who fail to learn from history                          _]
 _]                           are condemned to repeat it..."       _]
_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]_]


------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:04:16 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Jets

 
> >What about rocket propulsion for aircraft. German's did in
> >WWII.
> 
> Rockets use Jet propulsion.

*blink*

No.

- -Merrick


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:37:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: (LONG) Chuck's New And Improved Skill List

Hi all.  Here is my latest attempt as far as skills lists go. I welcome
comments, suggestions, information, corrections, additions and deletions.
I have tried to address several concerns brought up on the list regarding
various skills, and have tried to run the middle road between those who
want detailed skills and those who want broad skills.  I leaned a little
towards detail for military skills to satisfy all the merc types out
there, and I think the technical skills are a little on the detailed side
as well. Let me know what you think. 

NOTE ON SKILLS BY TECH LEVEL

I think skills should be understood to be mediated by the character's 
native TL.  Someone from a TL-5 world might have mechanic skill, but he 
won't be able to repair starship turrets (At least not  easily.  I'd say 
give a -DM equal to the TL difference).


SKILL CATEGORIES

Skills below are placed in categories mainly for ease of organization.  
These categories could also be used in chargen, just like in 2300AD 
(e.g., you get x number of skills from Underworld Skills).

Skills come in several types:

(D) Default: represents a skill that everyone has at level-0.
	(DL): only individuals at low (3-) tech levels get this as default.
	(DM): only individuals at medium TL (4-8) get this as default.
	(DH): only individuals at high TL (9+) get this as default.
[I considered having Dn+, where n would be a specific tech level, but I 
think this is simpler and does the job just as well. Comments?]

(C) Cascade: represents a group of related skills.  Pick one of them and 
all others are at 1/2 level.

(G) Group:  represents a group of related skills.  Pick one of them but 
get level-nil in all others (or level-0 at GM's discretion).



***MILITARY SKILLS*************************

Archery (C)	[I do not think this should be a default skill]
	-Bow
	-Crossbow
	-Sling
	-Atlatl

["Armorer" has been placed as a cascade of craftsman, below]

Battledress

Blade (C)
	-Short Blade (D): knives, daggers, blades...
	-Long Blade (D) : swords, cutlass, broadsword...  
	-2 Hand Blade (D): bastard sword, 2 handed sword...

Camouflage  [I don't think this should be default]

Cudgel (C)
	-Short Club (D)	: billy club, bo stick, bottle...
	-Long Club (D)	: baseball bat, treebranch...
	-Staff (D)	: staff, pole, broomhandle...

Demolitions

Environment Combat (C)
	-Low gravity
	-High gravity
	-Jungle
	-Desert
	etc. etc.

Field Artillery 

Forward Observer

Gunnery

Hammer/Axe/Mace (C) [Can anyone think up a better term for this?]
	-Short HAM (D)	: ballpeen hammer, hatchet...
	-Long HAM (D)	: warhammer, mace...
	-2 Hand HAM (D): battleaxe, woodaxe, 2H mace....

Heavy Weapons (C)
	-Grenade Lnch	:  
	-Braced Gun		:  Bipod/Tripod MGs 
	-Mortar		: 
	-Shoulder Rocket	:  LAW rockets and the like
[I would also include laser-based variants at TL 9+, and plasma/fusion 
variants at TL 12+]

Laser Weapon (C)
	-Pistol (DH)
	-Rifle (DH)

Leadership

Melee Weapon (G) (see individual skills for cascade options)
	-Blade (C)
	-Cudgel (C)
	-Hammer/Axe/Mace (C)
	-Throw 

Ranged Weapon (G) (see individual skills for cascade options)
	-Slug Weapon (C)
	-Laser Weapon (C)
	-Energy Weapons
	-Heavy Weapon (C)
	-Sonic Weapon (C)

Slug Weapon (C)  [Each includes tranq, googun, and tangler equivalents.]
	-Pistol (DM) (DH)  
	-Rifle (DM) (DH)
	-Shotgun (DM) (DH)
	-SMG 	[I don't think any autoweapons should be default]
	-Autorifle [includes gauss weapons at TL 9+]

Sonic Weapon (C)
	-Pistol (DH)
	-Rifle (DH)

Tactics (C)
	-Ship
	-Ground
	-Fleet
	-Water
	-Air
	etc. etc.


Unarmed Combat (D)  
[I don't like the idea of distinguishing Brawling and Martial Arts.  Yes 
they are different, but they aim to achieve the same goal and have the 
same results. I would lump both into this skill.]



***ACADEMIC SKILLS***********************

Research (D)

Instruction  
[Not default, I teach and it took a while to learn.  Most people are 
lousy at it on their first try (many are lousy their whole lives).  Maybe 
I'm too close to the problem, though...]

Science (G)
	-Astronomy 	: stellar processes and physics.
	-Biology	: Includes Xenobiology as a matter of course at 
high TLs.
	-Botany		:
	-Chemistry	:
	-Geology	: 
[this is literally "knowledge of Earth", can anyone suggest a more 
universal name?]
	-Physics
	-Psioncology [Or is this more of a scholarly pursuit?]
	-Psychology, experimental 
[The "harder" side of psych, neurobiology/chemistry, artificial 
intelligence, and so on]
	-Zoology	:

Scholar (G)
	-Archeology
	-Astrography	: stellar positions, like geography for stars 
[Should both "astro's" be lumped?]
	-Economics
	-History
	-Linguistics
	-Philosophy 
[This does not represent one's view on life, which is outside the realm 
of skills.  It represents knowledge about systems of thought and 
"standard" philosophies].
	-Political Science.
	-Psychology, applied [The "softer" side of psych, social psych, 
talk therapy, etc.]
	-Sophontology [this is a more universal version of anthropology].
	-Theology 
[This does not represent one's faith, which is outside the realm of 
skills.  It represents knowledge about belief systems, holy writings, 
etc. from various cultures]


***CRIMINAL/POLICE SKILLS******************

Blackmarketeer [Refers to the ability to find buyers for elicit goods.  
Not as easy as you think. Replaces "Fencing" which is confusing.]

Break and Enter [Replaces "Intrusion" which is not overly clear and 
sounds sort of immoral :-) ]

Bribery (D)

Disguise [not default, in my opinion]

Fast Talk (D) [Refers to convincing someone to do/think something by 
spurious logic and/or intellectual intimidation.]

(Fence has been replaced with Blackmarketeer to avoid confusion)

Forensics

Forgery [Definately not default, IMO]

Gambling (D)

Interrogation (D)

Intimidation (D)

Pickpocket

(Intrusion has been replaced by Break and Enter and Pickpocket)

(Investigation has been removed.  In my opinion it is a combination of 
Forensics, Interrogation, Perception, and Streetwise.)

Stealth (D)

Streetwise (D)



***TECHNICAL SKILLS*********************

Animal Rider (C)  [note, this is here because technically, it's a vehicle]
	-Uniped 	: giant snakes, snails, etc.
	-Biped	: Ton Tons and similar beasties.
	-Multiped	: horses, hivers (who's driving who? :-)
	[Should one have to choose a specific animal instead?]
	[Again, I really don't think this skill should be default.]

Animal Care (C)  [includes training, maintaining, packing, and husbandry]
	-Choose specific animal.

Aircraft (G)
	-Helicopter	: copters, autogyros.
	-Prop Plane	: including VTOL at TL-7+.
	-Jet Plane	: including VTOL and trans-atmosphere at TL-8+.
	-Light-t-Air	: blimps, baloons.
	-Glider	: 
	-Jet Pack	:
[Can anyone think of others?  Are the last two too specific? I was 
thinking of lumping them into "Personal Flyer" or something like that.]	

(Astrogation has been replaced by Navigation and Astrography).

Communications (DM) (DH)

Computer (C)
	-Programming	
	-Repair		
	-Hacking
	-Applications (DH)

Craftsman (G)
	-Armorer	: weapons and armor repair/maintenance.
	-Carpenter	:
	-Smith		:
	-Machinist	: machine parts fabrication.
	[I'd like suggestions to fill this in with]
	[There should be a note to players that many others may be 
created as desired]
	[Some craft skills will be (DL) at GM's discretion.]

Designer (G)
	-Spacecraft	:
	-Architectural	:
	-Vehicular	:
[Can anyone think of others?  This is supposed to be "engineering" in the 
20th century sense, but is called "design" to distinguish it.]

Electronics 

Engineer  [This refers to running and repairing starships as opposed to 
designing them.]

Farming

Grav Craft (C) 
	-Personal Flyer: grav belt, grav cycle.
	-Grav Vehicle (DH): air rafts of various sorts, including 
spacecraft when using antigrav.

Gravitics

Ground Vehicle (C)
	-Wheeled (DM)
	-Tracked
	-Hover

Mechanics

Navigation [Refers to spacecraft in jump space. Pilot covers navigation 
in real space. Orienteering covers navigation on planet surfaces.]

Pilot [Refers to spacecraft (of any size) maneuvering/navigating in real 
space. Ship's boat is eliminated and/or covered by Grav Craft]

Prospecting [Or is this just a combination of Sensor Ops and Geology?]

Robotics

Sensor Operations

 Space (G)
	-Pilot
	-Navigation
	-Engineer
	-Gunnery
	-Vacc
[Am I missing any here?]

Vehicle (G) (see individual skills for cascade options)
	-Aircraft (C)
	-Animal (C)
	-Grav Vehicle (C)
	-Ground Vehicle (C)
	-Vacc Suit
	-Watercraft (C)

Watercraft (C)
	-Powered
	-Sailboat
	-Hover
	


***PROFESSIONAL SKILLS********************

Diplomacy (D)

Law

Medicine (DM) (DH) [I like the idea of Med-1 being 1st Aid up to Med-4 
being surgeon].

Performance (C)
	-Art
	-Dance
	-Drama
	-Music
	-Writing
	etc. etc.

Politics


***MERCANTILE SKILLS************************
[I'd like formal definitions of the skills below, I'm not sure what they 
refer to specifically]

Administration

Bargain

Broker

Steward (D) [where does this go? Professional Skills? Other Skills?]

Trader



***OTHER SKILLS**************************

Athletics (C)
	-Running (D)
	-Swimming 
	-Climbing/Mountaineering
	-Specific Sport

Carousing

Innate (G)
	-Carousing
	-Leadership
	-Streetwise
	-Liaison
[Missing any here?]

Jack-of-all-Trades [I picture this as a skill which enables your other 
skills to wander into neighboring disciplines.]

Language (C)
	-Choose a particular language 

[Note:  I think language skills should be given as part of the 
character's "background package" or some step which is not part of career 
resolution. This resolves the problem of "wasting" skills on gaining 
languages.  Having grown up in Quebec, I'm bilingual, but not because of 
any "training"]

Orienteering [refers to navigating on planet surfaces]

Perception (D) [I don't like the idea of a seperate Observation skill.  
The argument was good, and I too am a good observer but bad perceiver, 
but I feel this dilutes things a bit too much]

Recon (D) [maybe we should call this skill scouting or something like that?]

Survey [could someone please explain to me what this skill is?]

Survival [Not default, lots of people have died cuz they didn't know not 
to drink salt water.]




<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 22:39:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Skills that should be roleplayed.

Hi all.  Here's my .02 Cr on skills that should be roleplayed (e.g.
seduction, carousing, tactics).  The way I do it is that I consider the
player to be taking care of larger scale stuff (e.g. what to say when
seducing someone), while the character and his skills are taking care of
details (e.g. body language and tone).  Thus, if you simply say "I seduce
her", bzzzt!  You lose!  You have to play out the dialogue and then make a
roll.  If your dialogue stinks, your roll better be pretty good, and vice
versa. 

To take another example, consider tactics.  You can't simply say "I come 
up with a brilliant battle plan.", you have to make up some sort of 
strategy.  Your character takes care of the details of how to make that 
strategy work.  I as GM will judge (yes, subjectively, and yes based on 
my own limited knowledge) whether it's a good strategy or not.  If you 
come up with a great plan, but your character doesn't know the first 
thing about tactics, he will bung it up in the details.  If you come up 
with a mediocre plan, but your character is a master tactician, he will 
"make it work".

Comments, criticisms, flames? (<--In order of preference :-)
Charles.


<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:51:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Message formatting request

Hi, folks...

Might I make a simple request?  I'd really appreciate it if contributors 
to this mailing list would keep their lines shorter than 80 characters.  
There have been some possibly interesting posts that I've given up trying 
to read, as the line wrapping made them almost impossible to look at.  
Thanks in advance!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:02:09 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Another non-lethal weapon proposal

        Here's another non-lethal weapon idea: Sandbag Jelly rounds,
shamelessly cribbed from William Gibson's Neuromancer, where they're
referred to in passing, but not actually used in the story.  I've developed
the following from the term:  rounds with a flexible casing filled with gel,
that instead of penetrating the target, spread on impact, delivering kinetic
energy over a wider area.  I think someone floated an idea called a
"Slapper" recently.  Sandbag Jellies use the same principle (delivering the
kinetic energy from the round over a wide area, administering a blow rather
than a puncture wound), only the rounds wouldn't deform until impact.  I'd
imagine that spreading into a disc form as in the Slapper proposal (if
memory serves) in flight would be, aerodynamically speaking, a very bad
thing and have a negative effect on impact velocity, accuracy, and range;
thus a sandbag jelly round would have a longer effective range, and be more
accurate.

        I think that a sandbag jelly round would probably require something
in the 10mm + caliber (largebore handguns, shotguns, riot weapons, grenade
launchers) to be effective. Rifling might pose a problem for the casings.
Unlike my Goopgun idea, Sandbag Jelly rounds could very well be used by
indivduals who were not in law enforcement; practically speaking they'd be
identical to regular ammunition for the same weapon.  Thus, they'd offer
non-lethality (if bruises and contusions administered to the target are not
a problem) while avoiding the size, weight and range disadvantages of
handheld Personnel-Immobilization Gel sprayers.
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:07:01 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Sandbag jellies (oops)

        Forgot to mention: as the impact is spread over a wider area,
sandbag jelly rounds could be fired at higher muzzle velocities than baton
("rubber bullet") rounds, thereby delivering more kinetic energy and
offering better odds of subduing the target.
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 21:09:59 -0700
Subject: Re: Skills that should be roleplayed.

At 10:39 PM 6/7/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Hi all.  Here's my .02 Cr on skills that should be roleplayed (e.g.
>seduction, carousing, tactics).  The way I do it is that I consider the
>player to be taking care of larger scale stuff (e.g. what to say when
>seducing someone), while the character and his skills are taking care of
>details (e.g. body language and tone).  Thus, if you simply say "I seduce
>her", bzzzt!  You lose!  You have to play out the dialogue and then make a
>roll.  If your dialogue stinks, your roll better be pretty good, and vice
>versa. 
>
>To take another example, consider tactics.  You can't simply say "I come 
>up with a brilliant battle plan.", you have to make up some sort of 
>strategy.  Your character takes care of the details of how to make that 
>strategy work.  I as GM will judge (yes, subjectively, and yes based on 
>my own limited knowledge) whether it's a good strategy or not.  If you 
>come up with a great plan, but your character doesn't know the first 
>thing about tactics, he will bung it up in the details.  If you come up 
>with a mediocre plan, but your character is a master tactician, he will 
>"make it work".

This is true but what happens when your GM knows some stratigie of his own.
Here's my problem.  My GM has spent the last year as a member of the
Canadian Forces Armored Recon Division.  Here's the problem I come up with
an idea, an idea that prehaps my character should know better than to do
considering the 12 years of military experience, so I make a tactic's roll
succeed and figure it's a good idea.  Unfortunately my GM realizes it's a
crappy idea and rather than pointing that out or perhaps saying, "You know
that goes against your basic training." or something he uses my own limited
personal knowledge against me.  Now when you're trying to enjoy a game and
your GM keeps fragging you it really bites.

Although it does keep you on your toes and we did have an interesting
discussion about booby traps and their purpose.  It still kind of sucks when
he nails you to the wall on something your character should have known
better than to do.

Derek


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 14:14:34 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: FO's & "Space" strikes...

        Something just occurred to me: the navigational, targeting, and
sophistication of technology required for ship to ship space combat would
make FO's obsolete at a certain point.  If a weapons system can  track and
hit a spacecraft (at a very great distance, at very great speed), then
surely hitting a target from orbit (nearer by, and moving, far, far more
slowly) must be within its capabilities.  I can see a battery of modern-day
howitzers needing some guy with binoculars telling them to walk the fire a
little east 'cause they've missed a few, but if you've got sensors and
weapons capable of ship-to-ship combat then frying a few tanks from orbit
has got to be a piece of cake.  The same argument would probably apply to
ground-based armaments...

        Even if cloud cover or other atmospheric distortions interfere with
shipboard targeting sensors (which is reaching, but hey), wouldn't it make
more sense to simply use targeting drones, which store more easily, remain
functional over longer periods of time, and pack sensors far more sensitive
than a human?  While Bob the  FO can identify a threat, speak into the mike
("This is Foxtrot-0-Bravo-Alpha-Romeo, I have, etc, etc, etc,"), a
hypothetical targeting drone could have been constantly relaying its
position via datalink, acquired the target earlier due to superior sensor
apparatus, and transmitted to the big guns a data pulse stating existence of
target, position of target relative to the drone, and the target's
direction, speed, astrological sign, hair colour, and sexual preference.  If
verification by human beings is required, it can transmit data back up to a
nice airconditioned workstation on board ship or behind the lines so that a
human being can decide whether to vaporize it or not.  And then the big
guns, wherever they're located, can aim and fire...

        I think that FO's would be a military specialty belonging only to
lower tech levels that just wouldn't be found later on (do U.S. Navy vessels
carry sailmakers these days?), and, therefore, its place on the skills list
could be used for something like, oh, say, anthropology :).
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 23:27:08 -0800
Subject: Re: Draft Skill List

On  8 Jun 96 at 0:34, Stefan Matthias Aust spewed:

> Hi!
> 
> One last comment onto the drafted skill list. Interestingly, even native
> speaker come up with different meanings for some skills :-) To reduce this

Actually, what's needed is clear definitions in the rules.  Since we 
were given no definitions on the list, stuff like was bound to 
happen.  It is interesting though... :-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 8 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 069

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Some Random Thoughts
         2. Re: FO's & "Space" strikes...
         3. Re: Social/Interactive skills
         4. Re: Computers, Robots and AIs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 00:34:48 -0600
Subject: Re: Some Random Thoughts

At 08:38 am 6/7/96 -0400, peterb@superlink.net (Peter L. Berghold) wrote:
>        +       Many was the time where I was GMing a game and I wanted my
party
>                to encounter a ship and I didn't want to spend 3 weeks
>designing it
>                and drawing it.  There was no need for that detail.  There
>needs to 
>                be a mechanism that allows GMs to produce a ship that is
within 
>                game balance ("... should be 100KT is size and armed to the
>teeth..")
>                without fleshing out details. 
>
>        +       There also needs to be several types of ship design
methods.  I 
>                loved High Guard and the MT ship design rules drove me
nuts.  I 
>                still can't design ships with it.  For folks who can wade
their 
>                way through that stuff it needs to be there as it *does*
produce
>                elegant looking designs.

        Hopefully the ship design sequence planned for "Starships" will meet
your needs. Check out the draft on my page at 

http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 01:01:26 -0600
Subject: Re: FO's & "Space" strikes...

At 02:14 pm 6/8/96 +0800, you wrote:
>
>        Something just occurred to me: the navigational, targeting, and
>sophistication of technology required for ship to ship space combat would
>make FO's obsolete at a certain point.  If a weapons system can  track and
>
        /* discussion snipped */
>
>        I think that FO's would be a military specialty belonging only to
>lower tech levels that just wouldn't be found later on (do U.S. Navy vessels
>carry sailmakers these days?), and, therefore, its place on the skills list
>could be used for something like, oh, say, anthropology :).

        But in the default setting, Milieu 0, TL8-11, many societies will
still be at a level where FO's are still needed.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@Mail.Bostaden.Umea.SE>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:24:38 +1
Subject: Re: Social/Interactive skills

> From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
> Example of the use of a social/interactive skill during a traveller gaming
> session:
> 
> GM:  You are standing before Luke Foobar, Arch Duke of the Zetta subsector.
> What do you do?
> 
> Player:  I roll against my Wit/Charm skill!  I got a ten!!  Did I impress him?
> 
> GM:  Let me check the chart..  Why yes you did!  In fact he's so impressed
> that he aggrees with your plan to use his private yacht as a pirate ship.

Counterexample of the use of a social/interactive skill during a 
traveller gaming session:

GM:   You are standing before Luke Foobar, Arch Duke of the Zetta
  subsector. What do you do?

Player:  I roll against my Wit/Charm skill!  I got a ten!!  Did I
impress him?

GM: Hang on! You have to tell me what approach you're taking first, 
and the better *you* play it, the more likely it is he'll react the 
way you want it. Remember, *you* play the character, the skill only 
add in what you (the player) don't know, or can't handle. So, what, 
exactly, are you saying?

Player: Oh yeah. Um. Okay, how 'bout this. <changes voice>"Lord Foobar, how pleasant 
to finally meet you..."

[Time passes in conversation while the player does his best, and the 
GM might occasionally roll dice/ask the player to roll dice to see if 
the *character* actually commits any of the social gaffes the player 
commits. Either way, after considering the conversation he figures in 
his mind how much it was worth, rolls the dice and (based on his 
knowledge of the player's social skills) determines that the player 
had indeed, through a combination of a good line of blarney and 
amazing dice rolling, somehow managed to convince the Duke.]

GM: "Your plan intrigues me. But this is not the place to talk about 
it. Visit my yacht tonight. We have much to plan..."

> Perhaps we should let players do the social interacting for themselves!  If
> a player doesn't enjoy (or isn't very good) at roleplaying social events.
> Then don't try to change the rules to make it easy for them, change the
> settings, change the problems.  With practice the players will develope the
> ability to deal with these roleplaying situations.

<Raises eyebrow> Your players must be miracles of patience and 
learning ability. I know I'd jump ship from a campaign if the only 
character type I could play was a moderately shy programmer who 
*hates* standing up in front of crowds, couldn't maintain a witty 
banter if it meant his life, etc... (In other words, I roleplay to be 
someone else. Not to be myself in funny clothes... ;-)

Now, you are right to some extent. The skills/dice *shouldn't* 
resolve the situation all by themselves. And the GM *should* make the 
players stretch themselves. But a players who knows (virtually) 
nothing about a particular social (or whatever) situation should 
still have the possibility to succeed in such a situation. If his 
*character* knows how to handle it. The players must, of course, give 
input on what he intends to do. The more the better. But the 
*player's* ability shouldn't be the only thing that matters. Then 
you're just acting.

My last statement probably reveals a philosophical difference between 
us. I don't consider roleplaying to be acting...

- --
| Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se          | I am a number,  |
| 100342.3455@compuserve.com - jonask@io.com | not a man! - 42 |

------------------------------

From: David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 08 Jun 96 07:13:08 EDT
Subject: Re: Computers, Robots and AIs

Stefan Matthias Aust wrote:

>> TL9 computers <<
>> Because of some bad experiences with defective programs, a paragim shift in
software development occures and programs are built of correctness-proven
components. This slows down component development and makes software expensive
but it's the only way to go. Although TL9 computers are 10 times faster than TL8
(which again are 10 times faster than TL7) the new software architecture will
eat up this speed gain<<

As I develop safety critical software (FBW computers) I'm in a good position to
comment on this. The places you need safety critical software are also the
places you need fast operation (we count nanoseconds of execution time and
machine cycles as part of development, and redesign if a routine takes too
long). You are also always on the cutting edge, trying to get maximum
performance from the architecture. What that means in the end is that languages
are simplified to their simplest, safest instructions, the ones that operate
quickly. You simply can't afford the processor clock cycles to allow for a
common, safe, slow component (which would have to have its safety reproven in
the particular application anyway). Even if the processor speed is increased
tenfold I can guarantee that the demands on the programme will expand to fill
that space, it's the way things work.

>> Although TL9 computers are 10 times faster than TL8 (which again
are 10 times faster than TL7) <<

The steps are far, far more than that. Processing power is probably doubling
yearly at the moment.

>> Input devices are now speech (very basic) <<

Current (ie T7/8) speech input devices have already passed beyond 'basic', the
only real limitations on them are the need to break speech into distinct words.
By the turn of the century they should probably be able to parse continuous
speech. Conversation parsing is something else entirely and an AI problem.

>> TL10 <<
>> or to do weather prediction <<

Short term (daily) and longer term (seasonal) forecasting has pretty much been
cracked already. The intermediate weekly forecasts still need improving in
accuracy, but the problem isn't computing power (though increased resolution
always helps in analysing any chaotic system and the greater the resolution the
more computing power you need) or programme design, it's the base understanding
of weather systems and the effects that contribute to them. It's the
planetographers/meteorologists who need to make the breakthroughs, not the
computer scientists.

>> In society, small computer become useful tools built
into nearly any device. (They're as common as cars today.) <<

They're _already_ commoner than cars today.

>> Military is quite suspective about TL10 computers and stays with TL9 systems
relaying more on humans than on machines. <<

Military systems are already completely dependent on computers. You don't so
much have a trigger on Phalanx or Aegis as a safety catch, given its head the
system will engage independently. Hi-tech fighter aircraft don't just fly less
well if the FBW system shuts down, they fall out of the sky because they are
unflyable by an unassisted human under _any_ conditions.

                                David


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 8 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 070

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: (LONG) Chuck's New And Improved Skill List
         2. Re: (LONG) Chuck's New And Improved Skill List
         3. Re: Message formatting request
         4. FFS Lite (Reformatted resend, LONG?)
         5. Re:Jet propulsion
         6. The MMT Skills List...
         7. Skills (reformatted resend)
         8. Re: Computers, Robots and AIs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 15:54:40 +0200
Subject: Re: (LONG) Chuck's New And Improved Skill List

>Hi all.  Here is my latest attempt as far as skills lists go. I welcome
>comments, suggestions, information, corrections, additions and deletions.

Here they are...

>NOTE ON SKILLS BY TECH LEVEL
>
>I think skills should be understood to be mediated by the character's 
>native TL.  Someone from a TL-5 world might have mechanic skill, but he 
>won't be able to repair starship turrets (At least not  easily.  I'd say 
>give a -DM equal to the TL difference).

This seems to be a good and simple rule.

>SKILL CATEGORIES

>[I considered having Dn+, where n would be a specific tech level, but I 
>think this is simpler and does the job just as well. Comments?]

For me, DL, DM and DH seem to be sufficient.

>***MILITARY SKILLS*************************
>
>Archery (C)	[I do not think this should be a default skill]

I agress with you, no default, even for low TLs.
I would change this to (G) and drop Atlatl.

>["Armorer" has been placed as a cascade of craftsman, below]

I would include the ability to fix devices into the corresponding useage
skills (mainly Fire Combat and Battledress), as Derek sugested earlier in
this list.

>Blade (C)
>	-Short Blade (D): knives, daggers, blades...
>	-Long Blade (D) : swords, cutlass, broadsword...  
>	-2 Hand Blade (D): bastard sword, 2 handed sword...

I would drop D for Long and 2H blades.

>Cudgel (C)
>	-Short Club (D)	: billy club, bo stick, bottle...
>	-Long Club (D)	: baseball bat, treebranch...
>	-Staff (D)	: staff, pole, broomhandle...
"2 Hand Club" to be uniform?

>Environment Combat (C)

I would abstract this to "trained to fight in unusual environments" and drop
all cascades.

>Field Artillery 
>Gunnery

Are here great differences? Oh, some people would say, of course I suppose.

>Hammer/Axe/Mace (C) [Can anyone think up a better term for this?]

I wouldn't divide melee weapons so far. Perhaps impaling and slashing
weapons are enough. For a fantasy game, a broader diversification might be
useful, but I think just to provide some primitive barbarian skills, this is
enough.

>Heavy Weapons (C)
>[I would also include laser-based variants at TL 9+, and plasma/fusion 
>variants at TL 12+]

Will they really work so differnt that different (sub)skills are needed?
Isn't it all about targetting and pulling the trigger? :-)

>Melee Weapon (G) (see individual skills for cascade options)

I feel that a third level isn't a good idea. I would go with only this melee
skill and drop the cascades of these subskills.

>Ranged Weapon (G) (see individual skills for cascade options)

Same goes here.

>Slug Weapon (C)  [Each includes tranq, googun, and tangler equivalents.]

I don't think, that pistols and rifles should be D. Perhaps it's that way in
the U.S. but in most parts of the world weapons aren't freely available and
most people will have no training in these skills.

>Unarmed Combat (D)  
>[I don't like the idea of distinguishing Brawling and Martial Arts.  Yes 
>they are different, but they aim to achieve the same goal and have the 
>same results. I would lump both into this skill.]

I agree.

>***ACADEMIC SKILLS***********************

>Instruction  

Is this skill useful I a lot of roleplaying situations? It's also difficult
to learn Calligraphy and it's no skill in Traveller (yet) 

Science = natural science and Scolar = liberal arts? These are the
(translated) terms I would categorize the skills under.

>	-Theology 
>[This does not represent one's faith, which is outside the realm of 
>skills.  It represents knowledge about belief systems, holy writings, 
>etc. from various cultures]

That's the right definition, IMHO.

>***CRIMINAL/POLICE SKILLS******************

>Blackmarketeer 

I would drop this skill, because most social skills should be left to
roleplaying and selling "hot" goods isn't that different to selling or
buying any goods.

>Break and Enter [Replaces "Intrusion" which is not overly clear and 
>sounds sort of immoral :-) ]

I would prefer one-world skill names.

>Disguise [not default, in my opinion]

I'd agree

>Forensics

I also could be a subskill of medicine, IMHO.

>Forgery [Definately not default, IMO]

Yes.

>Gambling (D)
>
>Interrogation (D)

To get information from a suspect or witness isn't that simple, I think. No
default.

>Intimidation (D)

I would drop this.

>(Investigation has been removed.  In my opinion it is a combination of 
>Forensics, Interrogation, Perception, and Streetwise.)

Then, it's a good canditat to include this skill and drop all other (just
kidding :-) Perhaps, I would drop Forensics and replace Interrogation with
(the more general) Investigation.

>***TECHNICAL SKILLS*********************
>
>Animal Rider (C)  [note, this is here because technically, it's a vehicle]

I would simply call this "Riding" and drop the cascade for simpicity.

>Animal Care (C)  [includes training, maintaining, packing, and husbandry]
>	-Choose specific animal.

Again for the same reason, drop C.

>Aircraft (G)

>[Can anyone think of others?  Are the last two too specific? I was 

Yes.

>(Astrogation has been replaced by Navigation and Astrography).

What's the need of Astrography besides Astrogation?

>Computer (C)
>	-Programming	
>	-Repair		
>	-Hacking
>	-Applications (DH)

Computer usage (Applications) should be open for everyone. No skill needed.
I would put Hacking and Programming together (even it Hacking is only a form
of creative application use but I need some more knowledge) and to repair
computers, I would suggest the Electronics skill. ("How many computer
scientists do you need to change a defect light blub? Zero. It's a hardware
problem.")

>Designer (G)
>	-Spacecraft	:
>	-Architectural	:
>	-Vehicular	:
>[Can anyone think of others?  This is supposed to be "engineering" in the 
>20th century sense, but is called "design" to distinguish it.]

I would drop this skill. 

>Engineer  [This refers to running and repairing starships as opposed to 
>designing them.]

>Farming

Isn't this a craft? (At least with my understanding of craft)

>Gravitics

Isn't this a science?

>Navigation [Refers to spacecraft in jump space. Pilot covers navigation 
>in real space. Orienteering covers navigation on planet surfaces.]

If that's no more, I would stay with Astrogation.

>Pilot [Refers to spacecraft (of any size) maneuvering/navigating in real 
>space. Ship's boat is eliminated and/or covered by Grav Craft]

Piloting a space craft is either done with some programming or the same as
flying with a grav vehicle, IHMO. Sophisticated controls will reduce the
needed instruments to a minimum. So I would introduce something like general
Spacecraft Operation add Spacecraft as subskill to the general driving skill.

>Prospecting [Or is this just a combination of Sensor Ops and Geology?]

No, I don't think so. I would see this as own skill, perhaps named Mining?

> Space (G)
>	-Pilot
>	-Navigation
>	-Engineer
>	-Gunnery
>	-Vacc
>[Am I missing any here?]

All skill are already listed anywhere. Why a special Space-Group?

>***PROFESSIONAL SKILLS********************

>Diplomacy (D)

I would drop D.

>Medicine (DM) (DH) [I like the idea of Med-1 being 1st Aid up to Med-4 
>being surgeon].

>Politics

What's that? Oratory? Diplomacy? Unscrupulousness? 

>Steward (D) [where does this go? Professional Skills? Other Skills?]

I would say professional.

>Innate (G)
>	-Carousing
>	-Leadership
>	-Streetwise
>	-Liaison
>[Missing any here?]

Where the difference between innated streetwise and normal streetwise for
example?

>[Note:  I think language skills should be given as part of the 
>character's "background package" or some step which is not part of career 
>resolution. This resolves the problem of "wasting" skills on gaining 
>languages.  Having grown up in Quebec, I'm bilingual, but not because of 
>any "training"]

Good point.

>Perception (D) [I don't like the idea of a seperate Observation skill.  
>The argument was good, and I too am a good observer but bad perceiver, 
>but I feel this dilutes things a bit too much]

Keep it simple.

>Recon (D) [maybe we should call this skill scouting or something like that?]

Yes, please.

>Survey [could someone please explain to me what this skill is?]

As far as I believe, a systematic scouting and cartographing of unknow
regions, or more general, the collection all all data worth knowing.

Still a large set of skills, but it looks good. I still prefer a more
uniform set of combat skills as follows:

Melee (Unarmed)
        Covering brawling and at higher levels artial arts.
        Also covering combat with iron-fists or similar weapons.

Melee (Blade weapons)
        Covering attacking, parrying and (at higher levels) fencing with
        pointed weapons.

Melee (Clubs)
        Covering attacking, parrying with hacking or slashing weapons
        where you have to wing your weapon instead of stabbing.

Melee (Polearms)
        Covering combat with long, mostly two handed weapons.

Missile combat (Throwing weapons)
        Covering targetting with throwing knifes, spears or axes.
        Also covers sling weapons.

Missile combat (Bow)
        Use of historic (curved) or modern (composite) bows.

Missile combat (Crossbow)
        Use of all kind of crossbows.

Gun combat (Early firearms)
        Covers use and maintenance of simple black powder weapons.
        Also covers the basic knowledge about these kind of weapons.

Gun combat (Modern firearms)
        Covers use and maintenance of modern slug weapons
        Also covers the basic knowledge about these kind of weapons.
        Gaus weapons are included here.

Gun combat (Energy weapons)
        Covers use and maintenance of lasers and plasma rifles.
        Also covers the basic knowledge about these kind of weapons.

Gun combat (Heavy weapons)
        Covers all kinds of rocket throwers, anti-tank weapons or
        heavy machine guns.

bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 10:25:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: (LONG) Chuck's New And Improved Skill List

A note on default skills, the orignial CT rule that stated that all
_plaeyr_ characters had the equivalent of skill 0 in all weapons is
intended to both enhance playability and to illustrate the fact that PC's
*are not average citizens*.  They are above average in general, and
hopefully can be the stuff great stories are written about.  Their overall
aptitude and ability should reflect this, hence giving most weapons as
default skills.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 11:07:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Message formatting request

owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM wrote:
> 
> Traveller-digest           Saturday, 8 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 068
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
> Date: Fri, 7 Jun 1996 20:51:21 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject: Message formatting request
> 
> Hi, folks...
> 
> Might I make a simple request?  I'd really appreciate it if contributors
> to this mailing list would keep their lines shorter than 80 characters.
> There have been some possibly interesting posts that I've given up trying
> to read, as the line wrapping made them almost impossible to look at.
> Thanks in advance!
> 
> - ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>       Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net

Uh, this might be me.  Sorry, I've been spending too much time on word
processors.  I'll reformat and do a resend.  (and I'll mark them LONG
this time! :)

Matt McL

------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 11:19:40 -0500
Subject: FFS Lite (Reformatted resend, LONG?)

I've reformatted this to <80.  BTW, what is considered a 'LONG' message?

Hi, everyone.  I'm returning to the game after about a 10 year hiatus 
couldn't find anyone to play after I got out of the good ol' USN) so my
background is pretty much straight CT.  However, when I started trying 
to get a group together here at the Black Hole of Missouri, the general 
feeling seemed to be that the biggest problem wasn't so much any given 
set of rules as it was the many different versions out there (CT, MT,
TNE).  Anyway, here are a few thoughts on the whole FFSLite thing.  (And 
it *does* need another name!  Maybe FFS Standard and FFS Professional 
after MS (tm)?  NOOO!! I'm just KIDDING!! Don't shoo .. AAAAHHGGGG!!)


I like the concept of FFSL a lot.  I found these groups late, so I 
missed the survey.  I was delighted when HG came out because I love to 
design custom starships.  I even had a ref. who let me run a Nav. Arch. 
character.  But I don't think that 100% accuracy in technical theory or 
detail is *required* to make Trav. a good RPG.  After all, how accurate 
would 1900's (TL 5-6) descriptions of TL 8 technology be?  And we're 
trying to jump ?000 years and 7 to 10 TL's ahead!  I would like to see 
a self-consistent set of rules and scientific assumptions which optimize 
playability without overtly upsetting what scientific understanding we 
can claim to have.  But this doesn't mean that my players (or myself) 
have to be whiz-bang technonerds! I'm a bit of a gearhead my self (6 yr 
as a submarine mechanic and working on my MS in Nuc. Eng.) but my time 
is *very* limited (married plus MS work plus GRA not related to thesis 
plus ...) so somthing on the order of HG in difficulty would be just 
about right. 

I think that the 6-day deadline on coming up with something is *very* 
unfortunate.  I realize that there are limitations, but do we want to do 
this right, or what?  Anyhow, a lot of my comments are probably moot, 
since the thing has been forced to take shape by time damands, but here 
they are anyway.  If anything I say is *stoopid* due to my lack of 
experience with MT, TNE, & FFS, I won't be offended if you say so, just 
to you don't try to say _I_ am stupid.  OBTW, I like the civilized tone 
of this group! 


First off, I feel that one of the strengths of the HG system was that 
everything (pretty much) was done as a factor (or maybe a 1st order 
polynomial) of the ship's displacement.  IMHO, if the ship could be 
designed this way, it would allow more variety than the 'standard' hull 
sizes concept, which I always saw as a major weakness of book 2.  For 
instance, your basic 'non-gearhead' doesn't really care what material 
the hull/armor is made of at a given TL.  If TL effects on mass, volume, 
and price could disappear into TL based multiplication factors for these 
items, it should allow more flexibility and fewer (or smaller) tables, 
without limiting upgradability to FFS.

Similarly, other (non-weapons) items could (?) be based on ship's 
displacement (or mass) as applicable, e.g. command space (bridge), fuel 
purification, etc.

BTW, what was ever the justfication for making computers so bloody 
large?  Maybe a plateau to the rate of growth of their capabilities?

Weapons are more complicated.  Maybe just a few standard sized mounts 
with standard weapons and UPP factors based on tech level?  Obviously, 
this is an area where some standardization will have to limit selection 
to keep it simple.  It seems to be going in this direction with the 
requests for designs of bay weapons et. al. 

Speaking of weapons, I like the idea which was mentioned of using the 
old 1 hardpoint per 100Td rule, maybe with a multiplication factor based 
on hull configuration.  More 'thumbrules' like this are what I think 
might be needed, as long as they don't break FFS rules.  Maybe the thumb 
rule (standard) designs would receive a discount at the shipyard, while 
full priced 'custom' designs could have all the advantages of FFS. 


One thing that I think needs to be remembered is that we're looking for 
the *BASIC* game.  The beauty of the original boxed set of CT (IMHO) was 
that anyone who was likely to get interested in the game could pick the 
rules up in an evening.  If basic T4 comes out at this level, we can 
always add to it.  We do need to maintain compatability though!

Well that's enough babbling on this topic.  Feel free to flame my 
opinions at will, they're quite heat resistant!  But do try to explain 
any disagreements.

Thanks,

Matt McL

------------------------------

From: prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 11:25:49 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re:Jet propulsion

jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said

>Actually, rockets use "rocket propulsion" like the V2 or Saturn V.  The V1
*Buzz
>Bomb* used "jet propulsion".
>

NoNoNoNo!!!
Rockets use the jet propulsion principle which involves expanding a hot
gas out the back o something.  The V1 was a ramJETS, the F-14 uses
turboJETS, the Saturn V uses rocket engines to produce a JET of hot
expanding gasses!!!!!


Tariq
- ----------------------------------------------------------
               T & P Rashid International
Providing Name Brand Products & Services Wholesale & Retail
            
            "A Better Way to do Business"

For more info contact us at       Stay tuned for CyberStores 
prashid@gulf.net                           coming soon!

- ------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
Date: Thu, 06 Jun 1996 21:36:50 -0800
Subject: The MMT Skills List...

Remarks on the MM=B9s Traveller skills list:

>>Character types supported include:

>>Army, Navy, Marine, Scout, Merchant,
Noble, Performer, Scholar, Agent, Rogue.

You should add Aviator (COACC) to the military set and Belter to the =

civvie set.

>> Consolidated Skill List (* indicates Default Skills [see below])

THE GOOD:
Administration*
Aircraft (choose from Copter, Prop Airplane, Jet Airplane)
Archeology (one of many "Majors" for the Scholar character type).
Archery*
Armorer (question: does this include powered armor?)
Astrogration
Athletics*
Battle Dress
Biology
Blade Weapons* (choose from Short Blade*, Long Blade*)
Brawling (Unarmed)*
Bribery*
Broker*
Carousing*
Chemistry
Commo*
Computer*
Demolitions
Diplomacy* (comment: I like this title better than Liaison)
Disguise*
Electronics
Engineering
Equestrian*
Fencing
Field Artillery
First Aid* (very high levels become EMT) (comment: Good idea, separating =

this from 			Medical)
Forensics
Forgery*
Forward Observer
Gambling
Grav Craft*
Gravitics
Gun Combat* (choose from Handgun*, Rifle*, Shotgun*, SMG*)
Gunnery
Heavy Weapons*
History
Instruction*
Interrogation*
Intrusion*
Investigation*
Jack of All Trades (comment: Glad to see it return!)
Language (Specific)
Law
Leadership*
Linguistics
Mechanics
Medical
Melee (Armed)*
Navigation*
Perception*
Performance (Art)
Performance (Dance)
Performance (Drama)
Performance (Music)
Performance (Writing)
Philosophy*
Physics
Pilot
Psionicology (an academic endeavor)
Psychology*
Recon*
Research*
Robotics
Sensors
Stealth* (comment: this one used to fall under Recon in CT; good to =

separate the two)
Steward
Streetwise*
Surface Vehicle*
Survey
Survival*
Tactics*
Throwing*
Trader*
Vacc Suit*
Watercraft*

THE BAD
Camouflage* -- should fall under =B3Recon=B2
Ship=B9s Boat (always hated this skill; when you already have Pilot, it=B9s=
 =

useless; just have 		Pilot)

AND THE UGLY
Environment Combat* (huh?)
Fast Talk* (should fall into the realm of roleplaying, not die rolling)
Intimidation* (same as above)
Craftsman

MISSING SKILLS:
Astrogation (this skill really should be differentiated from Navigation, =

which is a 		completely different thing altogether)
Construction
Climbing (or Mountaineering)
Farming
Recruiting! (What? Did you forget?!)
Combat Engineer (Don=B9t make us wait =8Ctil Mercenary II)
Xeno-Biology
Zero-G Combat
Ship Tactics (this one MUST be included)


And, regarding your guns essay: as long as laser weapons are restored to =

their previous lethality, I don=B9t give a hoot HOW you do it! <g>

Best,

Chris Griffen


------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 11:30:05 -0500
Subject: Skills (reformatted resend)

This is the second time around for this message, reformatted for <80.
(oops!)

Howdy!  This is just a bit of an overview of my views on the skills 
thing.  I just got done waxing philisophical (or not) on T4 and some 
basic ideas I have in a mailing re: FFS Lite, so I'll keep this a bit 
shorter.  I'm not going to comment on every skill (which doesn't mean I 
like or dislike any given one), but make a few more general comments.

IMHO, in keeping with the idea of a *BASIC* T4 that can be sold to a new 
(and non-gearhead) audience, we don't need to get overly complicated in 
defining all the skills. Maybe a supplemental publication on skills?

As a for instance, let's look at medical.  For many of us, the following 
worked well enough: 
   Med-0 = mother kisses knee and puts on bandaid and knows not to put 
            tournequet (sp?) around neck,
   Med-1 = standard 1st aid such as taught in the military,
   Med-2 = EMT/field medic,
   Med-3 = (basic) doctor.
For others, splitting into specialties at Med-3 (or 4) and taking 
partial skills in other areas seems good.  e.g.: My combat doctor 
character (Admin-1, Medic-6, GC(Pistol)-5, ..., not necessarily a 
pacifist ;) ) specialized in Trauma(effective level 6), has a related
ability of 5 in (Macro-)Surgery, and maybe a 4 in other specialties.

Computer has also been commented on.  Face it, your average non-chiphead 
(not in this mailing list; maybe an MD who cares a lot about the 
preceeding) doesn't know and couldn't care less about the differences 
between hardware and software, much less AI, operations, programming, 
etc.  While most of us know that there are a lot of (critical) 
difference, they won't reduce playability if the group involved don't 
care about them.  ( ref: 'OK, the spaceport supervisor's left his office 
to check out your little diversion.  Yes, his terminal's powered up.'  
player: 'I've got comp-4, and I'm looking for the last month's cargo 
manifests.  (out of character) I don't know if it's AI, operations, or 
programming! I'm a psychologist, for Pete's sake!!)
 

This wasn't well developed, but shows what I mean.  Most players have 
areas of greater or lesser interest, and this will be reflected in which 
skills they wish to expand.  Maybe a rule that any skill at a given 
level (4?) or higher must be specialized.  After all, my BS in Nuc Eng 
was very general, covering Health Physics, Fission power, fusion theory,
requlatory concerns, waste management, radiochemestry, and a number of 
lesser topics.  My MS work, on the other hand, is concentrating on 
radwaste remediation, and specifically groundwater transport of 
nuclides.  However, I've gained a lot of experience in researching 
and (with time and a successful research task?) could expand my 
knowledge in other areas to meet or exceed that in my area of 
specialization.

I think it is definitely necessary to have a limited number of canon 
skills, particularly for the first release.  After all, you could have 
200+ skills, and each of us would still find something we'd like to add. 
Limit the basic (official) amount, and allow refs to add via house 
rules.  It may, however, be a good idea to require new skills to have a 
canon skill to which they are identified for transplant to other games. 
(I know this isn't always practical, but wouldn't it be nice?)

Default skills: how about a default number (6? 10?) of default 'slots' 
which a player could select skills for?  Those skills not available for 
default (battledress!, etc.) would be identified.  Others would be 
limited by background (vacc suit-0 not likely for a ground hog, unless a 
SCUBA diver).  Most players would not have bow skill, but I've messed  
around with them enough to have a bow-0, without living on a TL 5- 
planet.  This would allow a lot of background development without a lot 
of time, effort, or effect on game balance. 

Comments on a few skills:

Armorer:  One who works in an armory?  IMHO, both (small) weapons and 
armor.  Low levels imply can maintain effectively, ensure continue to 
work, fit to individuals.  Higher levels allow repair, possibly with 
mech/electronics/computer/etc. skills as required/beneficial. Also maybe 
customize to an individual to improve effectiveness (after SORAG) or 
reduce encumbrance.  Only at very high levels, with additional skills, 
TL/item-specific training, and proper tools/materials/workshop would 
creation be possible.  Of course, may allow use of non-standard 
materials to simulate (limited) armor capability.  Higher levels may  
require cascading to weapons(slug/laser/energy) and armor(cloth/hard 
(ceramic, metal, etc.)/power). 

Fencing:  If swordplay, this might be a high level speciallization under 
blade combat.  If dealing with grey goods, maybe streetwise?

Regarding some of the particular skills people are asking for, it seems 
possible to have a supplement which spells out some additional skills.  
Alternativley, combinations of skills which give the desired effect.  
(e.g. GC(Cbt Rfl)-3 + Vacc-2 + Elect-3 + Mech-2 = Armorer-2) Once again, 
you'll never make everyone happy.  I, for instance, find a single skill 
for Engineering to be ludicrous!  But it needn't affect playability.  A 
few score skills which are fairly abstract seems a good idea for the 
basic version of T4. 

That's all for now - for what it's worth! ;)


Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 18:51:55 +0200
Subject: Re: Computers, Robots and AIs

David Gillon wrote:

>Stefan Matthias Aust wrote:
>
>>> TL9 computers <<

>As I develop safety critical software (FBW computers) I'm in a good position to
>comment on this. The places you need safety critical software are also the
>places you need fast operation (we count nanoseconds of execution time and
>machine cycles as part of development, and redesign if a routine takes too
>long).

I'm sorry, but I don't see these two areas to be interconnected. For your
kind of software, this might be true, but generally, software that has a
mathematically proven correctness has no relation to software that has the
requirement to react as fast as possible (or in a given time-span).

A good example for a piece of software which should have proven correctness
is a compiler. Today every programmer blindly trusts on the tested
correctness of his compiler. A compiler hasn't to be fast. It a nice-to-have
but no critical requirement. Another example are operation systems which
provides the base for all application programs which depend on its
correctness and will fail, if the underlying OS fails (Windows shows this
much too often). And the common OS for end users hasn't to be fast but to be
usable easily.

To make the point: it's not only definite software that have to be proven to
work correct but *any* software need. Otherwise, someday in near future,
critical systems will break down. Same goes, of course, for hardware. But
it's easier to do (Intel provides the counter-example) and can be checked
with software to a high degree (you can notice that something has failed but
not what - perhaps it's the error-routine?).

>You are also always on the cutting edge, trying to get maximum
>performance from the architecture. What that means in the end is that languages
>are simplified to their simplest, safest instructions, the ones that operate
>quickly. You simply can't afford the processor clock cycles to allow for a
>common, safe, slow component (which would have to have its safety reproven in

It's my oppinion that generally the trend goes not towards simpler assembler
languages but towards higher, more abstract, languages and development
tools. (Look at IBM's Visual Age or ParcPlace-Digitalk's Parts for Java for
example). Textual languages will be replaced by visual or graphical "languages."

Do you use assembler-like languages because it's easier to prove? That's the
way to start, but when you have proven poof-programs, you can bootstrap to
higher languages and components.

It could be different, of course. But I would suggest exactly this trend
also for Traveller to give an answer why Traveller has relative simple and
slow computers which probably are "canon" to the game. Think of a computer
not as number cruncher but as generalized communication and working tool.

>>> Although TL9 computers are 10 times faster than TL8 (which again
>are 10 times faster than TL7) <<
>
>The steps are far, far more than that. Processing power is probably doubling
>yearly at the moment.

Yes, if you look at the processor speed alone. But if you compare the
application speed, you can't write your letters faster with a today computer
than with a 10 years old PC. Although, it has became much more comfortable.
And here is, where the processing power got lost.

And keep in mind, we need some manipulation towards the Traveller canon.

>>> Input devices are now speech (very basic) <<
>
>Current (ie T7/8) speech input devices have already passed beyond 'basic', the
>only real limitations on them are the need to break speech into distinct words.

Let's distinguish experimental state and a state useful for the mass market.
Even today (at TL8), you can't go and buy your speech input program that can
understand any speaker, at normal spoken speed, and that understands the
meaning of informal sentences ("please copy the file" instead of "copy ++
file ++ A dot Tee Ex Tee"). Perhaps in one or two years, we will have
reached this state but today, it's still unavailable. So I think TL9 is a
good assumption.

And, using the rules as argument: we can't put all computer technology to
TL8 & 9 and have no further improvements because we can't extrapolate how it
could look like at TL15. ;-)

>By the turn of the century they should probably be able to parse continuous
>speech. Conversation parsing is something else entirely and an AI problem.

Correct. And this has to be also solved to use "real" speech input, IMHO.

>>> TL10 <<
>>> or to do weather prediction <<

Yes, agreed. Drop this argument. Problem with weather prediction is more the
mathematics of chaos theory than the processing power.

>>> In society, small computer become useful tools built
>into nearly any device. (They're as common as cars today.) <<
>
>They're _already_ commoner than cars today.

Well, definite not in Germany :-) But this is what I really meant: Computers
are seen as cars today. They're easily used by everyone but only a small
minority really understands how they work. They change from a technical tool
to a Perhaps one should compare this with TVs or radios.

>Military systems are already completely dependent on computers. You don't so
>much have a trigger on Phalanx or Aegis as a safety catch, given its head the
>system will engage independently. Hi-tech fighter aircraft don't just fly less
>well if the FBW system shuts down, they fall out of the sky because they are
>unflyable by an unassisted human under _any_ conditions.

Same is true for the European Airbus, AFAIK. After an accident they changed
the computers to only make suggestion but let the pilot manually override
certain command, I was told. Now, the crew can lower the landing gear even
if the computer is convinced it's already down for landing.

I thought it this way and I feel, sometimes in the future, the military will
notice this problem and try to change it. One approach is to improve
computer and especially software quality. Another is to use independent
computer systems to have a higher chance of working. 

This could be one reason, why Traveller ship computers are such bulky. It's
because the computer space is filled by heavy shieldings and a large network
of interacting and supervising computer systems.

Finally I would like to repeat my question? 

How could really advanced computers of TL14+ look like? Would we recognise
them still as computers at all? When will bio-technology will be introduced
(to make the virus at least possible, only at TL16+)? What's about
nano-technology?

bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #70
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 9 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 071

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. T4 Character Types
         2. FFSLite
         3. FFSLite agreement
         4. Re: T4 Character Types
         5. Re: Jet propulsion
         6. JTAS Format
         7. Re: JTAS Format
         8. Re: Performer Characters
         9. Re: Foundations of the Imperium
        10. Re: Jet propulsion
        11. Re: FFSLite
        12. GB Skill List
        13. Re: FFSLite
        14. Re: T4 Character Types
        15. Re: Skills

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin)
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:34:43 -0600
Subject: T4 Character Types

Marc Miller wrote:

>The Agent Type:
>Secret Agent. Imperial Agent. Law Enforcement Agent. Insurance Agent?

Insurance Agent - definitely! "Uh, Sir, your starship must have already had
that bumper damaged before that Free Trader hit you. I'm sorry, but we
can't be paying for every little dent and scratch ...." Then, the guns come
out. Great adventure, eh?



------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 13:11:02 -0500
Subject: FFSLite

First off, Dave's been doing some serious work here!   He deserves a lot
of recognition, and all the help he can get.  If you haven't seen it, 
check it out at:

http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html
I'd like to get some feed back on a thought I've got on this.  I know
that this audience may be heavy with those who like the full-blown FFS,
but picture yourself or your players in the position of having to whip
up a quick ship in 20 minutes or so.

My ship design experience has been with HG.  As such, I'm used to most
components (drives, armor, etc.) being proportionately based on ship's
displacement.  I pick a tonnage, pick what drives and armor I want, 
pick weapons/defenses, calculate how much powerplant I need, add misc.,
staterooms, bridge, etc., and I'm pretty much done.  This allows a lot
of flexability in a fairly short time.

I'm not familiar with FFS, but from looking at the tables on Dave's 
page, it looks like most of the calculations are made the same way.  
The point is, I don't see a few simple multiplications as being terribly
restrictive.  There are so many ships already out there that anyone who
wants to design one should be willing to go to at least that much 
trouble.  Maybe we could add a catalog of off the shelf components like
CT2, but I hope we don't need that!

As far as I can see, it seems like where things might need to be simpler
is where there are a near infinite variety of available options, such as
in weapons design.  Create a few standard varieties based on experience
and make them the options.  And allow those who like greater detail to 
really optimize them with the full FFS.

I guess I'd rather just a simple list of straightforward calculations,
even if they involve 3 or 4 multiplications at a time, than having to
wade through a ton of tables which limit me to 'standard' hull sizes.

Comments, anyone?  Don't worry, I've got my asbestos underwear on, over
my lead jockey shorts.  Flame away!

Matt McL

------------------------------

From: "Matthew K. McLaughlin" <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 13:16:21 -0500
Subject: FFSLite agreement

I just (re)read Don Perrin's note regarding implementing FFSLite.  I'm
concerned that it implies that there will be _no_ starship generation
system in the basic T4 rules.  Is this the case?  Also, are there/will
there be guidelines for converting HG ships to T4/FFS?  I've got some
nice ships I would rather not have to toss or rework.

Thanks,

Matt McL

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 12:46:30 -0800
Subject: Re: T4 Character Types

On  8 Jun 96 at 12:34, Don Perrin spewed:

> Insurance Agent - definitely! "Uh, Sir, your starship must have already had
> that bumper damaged before that Free Trader hit you. I'm sorry, but we
> can't be paying for every little dent and scratch ...." Then, the guns come
> out. Great adventure, eh?
>

The wife and I were ROFL... :-)

Stu
 
 
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 20:28:37 GMT
Subject: Re: Jet propulsion

=> NoNoNoNo!!!
=> Rockets use the jet propulsion principle which involves expanding a hot
=> gas out the back o something.  The V1 was a ramJETS, the F-14 uses
=> turboJETS, the Saturn V uses rocket engines to produce a JET of hot
=> expanding gasses!!!!!

The definition of jet propulsion is "movement in a specific direction via the
expulsion of a jet of air or gas in the opposite direction."

Rockets, however, provide their own oxygen and do not require an inlet such as
jet engines do.  This allows rockets to function outside of an atmosphere.  And
the V1 used PULSE-jet technology, hence the sound.

------------------------------

From: Tom Miller <scouse@inforamp.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 18:05:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: JTAS Format

Hello,

I was looking at the IG Page and saw the JTAs will come out every 2 months
in a magazine format.  IMHO I would like it to come out 4 times yearly in a
digest format (ala the Star Wars Adventure Journal).  This would make it
more durable, looks better on the bookshelf :) contains more, etc. etc.

Thoughts? 

Peter Miller
http://www.inforamp.net/~scouse/peter/


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 17:10:59 -0800
Subject: Re: JTAS Format

On  8 Jun 96 at 18:05, Tom Miller spewed:

> Hello,
> 
> I was looking at the IG Page and saw the JTAs will come out every 2 months
> in a magazine format.  IMHO I would like it to come out 4 times yearly in a

Jeez...maybe we ought to see what the first 1 looks like, before we 
start picking it apart.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 08 Jun 1996 20:36:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Performer Characters

>Obvious choices for the Performer character.  I think the Performer 
>type is tough to justify as a basic character class though.

Actually, one of the most memorable campaigns I reffed involved the
characters as a socially-progressive rock band.  (And hey, this was before
U2!)  "Robyn 'n the Hoods" toured the Spinward Marches doing benefit
concerts, bothering dictatorships, and breaking into corporate headquarters
to locate their next target (and make off with the petty cash to finance
reforestation projects)!

This being back in CT days, I had to ad-lib the performance skills.  (And it
was Marc's advice to a neophyte referee - "ignore the rules if it makes the
game more fun" - that gave me 'permission' to do so with a group of former
rules lawyers.)

Anyway, it was a great campaign - probably the best I've run.  Well worth
being thrown out of the Rhylanor Hilton :-)

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 08 Jun 1996 20:44:36 GMT
Subject: Re: Foundations of the Imperium

This digest must have been one the the ones that vanished when my system
overloaded with gdw.beta messages (320+ in two days).

Could someone please email me a copy?

Thanks.

------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 18:15:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Jet propulsion

prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid) wrote:
> jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said
> 
> >Actually, rockets use "rocket propulsion" like the V2 or Saturn V.  The V1
> >*Buzz Bomb* used "jet propulsion".
> 
> NoNoNoNo!!!
> Rockets use the jet propulsion principle which involves expanding a hot
> gas out the back o something.  The V1 was a ramJETS, the F-14 uses
> turboJETS, the Saturn V uses rocket engines to produce a JET of hot
> expanding gasses!!!!!

Using the term 'jet' informally, what you say is true.  In technical
terms, however, there's a significant difference between a jet and a
rocket. 

A jet is by definition an air-breathing propulsion system.  It takes in 
air through a forward inlet, uses various mechanisms to compress and heat 
this air, then ejects it behind the jet with higher momentum, thus 
producing thrust.  Therefore, a jet cannot operate in vacuum.

In contrast, a rocket carries on board all fuel and reaction mass.  It 
imparts high momentum to the reaction mass, either by external means or 
by liberating chemical energy in the mass itself, then shoots the mass 
out the back of the rocket, producing thrust.  Rockets work equally well 
in atmosphere or vacuum.

Germany was in fact experimenting with a *rocket* fighter (the Me120, 
possibly?) toward the end of the WWII; it used a non-air-breathing, 
all-fuel/mass-on-board propulsion system.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 18:26:40 -0700
Subject: Re: FFSLite

At 01:11 PM 6/8/96 -0500, you wrote:
>First off, Dave's been doing some serious work here!   He deserves a lot
>of recognition, and all the help he can get.  If you haven't seen it, 
>check it out at:
>
>http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/FFSLight.html
>I'd like to get some feed back on a thought I've got on this.  I know
>that this audience may be heavy with those who like the full-blown FFS,
>but picture yourself or your players in the position of having to whip
>up a quick ship in 20 minutes or so.
>
>My ship design experience has been with HG.  As such, I'm used to most
>components (drives, armor, etc.) being proportionately based on ship's
>displacement.  I pick a tonnage, pick what drives and armor I want, 
>pick weapons/defenses, calculate how much powerplant I need, add misc.,
>staterooms, bridge, etc., and I'm pretty much done.  This allows a lot
>of flexability in a fairly short time.

Certianly for a quick, bash it out ship for a single adventure this is the
only way to go.

>I'm not familiar with FFS, but from looking at the tables on Dave's 
>page, it looks like most of the calculations are made the same way.  
>The point is, I don't see a few simple multiplications as being terribly
>restrictive.  There are so many ships already out there that anyone who
>wants to design one should be willing to go to at least that much 
>trouble.  Maybe we could add a catalog of off the shelf components like
>CT2, but I hope we don't need that!

To refer to the FF&S system as a few simple calculations is something of an
understatement.  One of the systems greatest problems was in the final few
steps where you had to put in a powerplant and allocate fuel.  Inveriably
you found out some where way up the list you'd over budgeted the beast and
wound up starting all over again.  

>As far as I can see, it seems like where things might need to be simpler
>is where there are a near infinite variety of available options, such as
>in weapons design.  Create a few standard varieties based on experience
>and make them the options.  And allow those who like greater detail to 
>really optimize them with the full FFS.
>
>I guess I'd rather just a simple list of straightforward calculations,
>even if they involve 3 or 4 multiplications at a time, than having to
>wade through a ton of tables which limit me to 'standard' hull sizes.


I'm a great beleiver in the custom hullsize.  Talk a look at Dave Golden's
page to see what I mean.  The 120 ton Artemis is something I sat up for
hours figuring out how to cram everything into a single small hull.  It's a
cramped beast but they refered to the Victix as high strung, hell this thing
was way beyond high strung, it was damn near insane.

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 96 16:21:31 -0600
Subject: GB Skill List

Well, if everybody's talking about skills and skill lists I guess I'll
have to weight in on the subject.

The following is a skill list I used for a Traveller game I ran.  I
wouldn't use this list for a canon game, my technology is different so
certain skills are included that might not be required for other
people's games.

The list is pretty extensive, but even so I had players add a couple
just for their characters.

- -----------------------------------------------------------
                        SKILLS LIST

                   The Great Beyond Game

SPACE

    Space-life skills                   Officer skills
    -------------------                 -------------------
 Vacc/Enviro Suit (Con)              Leadership (Chr)
 Low/Zero G (Con)                    Willpower (Int)
 High G (Con)                        Admin/legal (Edu)
 Survival-Space (Int)                Planet Survey (Int)
 Streetwise (Int)                    Pistol (Str)
 Computer Use                        Diplomacy (Chr)
                                     Recruiting (Chr)

    Bridge Skills                       Technical/Repair skills
    -----------------------             -----------------------
 Astrogation (Int)                   Gravtic (Edu)
 Pilot - Gravtic  (Agl)              Nuclear Damper (Edu)
 Pilot - Jump Drive (Agl)            Repulser/Grappler (Edu)
 Sensor Use - Normal space (Int)     Sensor Repair (Edu)
 Commo Use  (Int)                    Commo Repair (Edu)
 Fleet Tactics (Edu)                 Electronics (Edu)
 Ship Tactics (Edu)                  Computer (Edu)

    Engineering skills (use,
                maintain & repair)      Combat skills
    -----------------------------       --------------------
 Fusion Power Plant (Edu)            Energy Weapons  (Int)
 Jump Drive    (Edu)                 Grav Weapons (Edu)
 Gravtic Drive    (Edu)              Missiles (Edu)
 Hull repair (Str)                   Grappler (Agl)
 Machinist (Agl)                     Boarding Tactics (Int)
 Damage/Fire Control (Con)           Ground Tactics (Int)
 Mechanic (Str)                      Personal Weapons (Str or Agl)


ARTS & SCIENCE SKILLS/KNOWLEDGES

    Physical Sciences                   Fine Arts
    --------------------                --------------------
 Biology (Edu)                       Acting/Bluffing (Chr)
 Chemistry (Edu)                     Dancing (Agl)
 Agronomy/Farming (Int)              Music (Agl)
 Genetics (Edu)                      Painting (Int)
 Geology (Edu)                       Sculpture (Agl)
 Meteorology (Edu)                   Singing (Chr)
 Physics (Edu)                       Persuasion (Chr)
 Mathematics (Int)                   Costume/Disguise (Chr)

    Social Science                      Business/Admin
    --------------------                --------------------
 History (Edu)                       Marketing (Edu)
 Instruction (Chr)                   Admin/Legal (Edu)
 Interview (Int)                     Leadership (Chr)
 Persuasion (Chr)                    Negotiation/Bargaining (Chr)
 Psychology (Int)                    Research (Int)
 Research (Int)                      Diplomacy (Chr)

    Engineering                         Architecture
    ----------------                    --------------------
 Civil Engineer (Edu)                Building Architect (Edu)
 Combat Engineer (Con)               Sea ship Architect (Edu)
 Mining Engineer (Int)               SpaceShip Architect (Edu)
 Electrical Engineer (Edu)
 Chemical Engineer (Edu)


PLANETARY TRANSPORT SKILLS
    Ground Transport                    Water Transport
    ----------------                    -------------------
 Wheeled Vehicle (Agl)               Large Ship (Con)
 Tracked Vehicle (Agl)               Powered Boat (Agl)
 Hovercraft (Agl)                    Submarine (Int)
 Gravtic (Agl)                       Sail Boat (Agl)
 Riding (Con)                        Row Boat (Str)

    Aircraft                            Repair/Maint
    ----------------                    --------------------
 Airship (Agl)                       Steam Engine (Str)
 Rotary Wing (Agl)                   Internal Combustion (Con)
 Fixed Wing (Agl)                    Fusion (Edu)
 Glider (Agl)                        Gravtics (Edu)
 Gravtic (Agl)                       Jump Drive (Edu)
                                     Machinist (Agl)
                                     General Mechanic (Str)
                                     Electronics (Edu)

PHYSICAL SKILLS
    General Physical                    Exploring
    ----------------                    --------------------
 Arcobatics (Agl)                    Climbing (Con)
 Stealth (Agl)                       Liaison (Chr)
 Thrown Weapon (Str)                 Mapping (Edu)
 Parachuting (Con)                   Navigation (Int)
 Skating/Skiing (Agl)                Swimming (Con)
 Brawling (Str)                      Survival/Foraging (Int)

COMBAT KNOWLEDGE/SKILLS
    Archaic                             Modern
    ----------------                    --------------------
 Riding (Con)                        Unarmed Martial Arts (Agl)
 Brawling (Str)                      Knife (Agl)
 Archery (Str)                       Pistol (Str)
 Sword (Str)                         Rifle (Str)
 Fencing (Agl)                       Assault Rifle (Str)
 Early Pistol (Str)                  Grenade Launcher (Str)
 Early Rifle/Musket (Str)            Mortar (Int) Catapult (Str)
 Artillery (Int) Cannon (Str)        Forward Observer (Int)
 Archaic Tactics (Edu)               Tactics (Int)

VARIOUS KNOWLEDGE/SKILLS
    Vices & Criminal                    Crafts
    ----------------                    --------------------
 Carousing (Chr)                     Metallurgy (Edu)
 Forgery (Agl)                       Carpenter (Con)
 Pickpocket (Agl)                    Jeweler (Agl)
 Intrusion/Burglary (Agl)            Mason (Str)
 Streetwise (Int)                    Excavation/Mining (Edu)
 Gambling (Chr)                      Cooking/Baking (Int)
 Investigation (Int)                 Plumbing (Con)
 Tracking (Int)                      Electrical (Int)


SERVICE
    Medical                             Personal Service
    ----------------                    --------------------
 Nursing (Int)                       Salesmanship (Chr)
 Diagnosis (Edu)                     Cosmology (Agl)
 Surgery (Agl)                       Massage (Agl)
 First Aid (Int)                     Food Service (Agl)
 Pharmacy (Edu)                      Steward/Butling (Int)


Don't consider this list *exhaustive*, there are many other skills and
knowledges a character can acquire.  If you wish the character you are
playing to have other skills, explain the skill to me and we'll
negotiate it's inclusion.
- ---------------------------------------------------

BTW, on the roll vs role playing issue.  I have players roleplay the
situations out, and *I* roll against their skills.  Players seldom
roll dice in my games.  <g> I add my subjective judgement of their
role playing to the die roll to make decisions on if and how
successful they are.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Matt & Ellen McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 1996 23:25:56 -0500
Subject: Re: FFSLite

derek stanley wrote:
> 
> At 01:11 PM 6/8/96 -0500, you wrote:
...

> >I'm not familiar with FFS, but from looking at the tables on Dave's
> >page, it looks like most of the calculations are made the same way.
> >The point is, I don't see a few simple multiplications as being terribly
> >restrictive.  There are so many ships already out there that anyone who
> >wants to design one should be willing to go to at least that much
> >trouble.  Maybe we could add a catalog of off the shelf components like
> >CT2, but I hope we don't need that!
> 
> To refer to the FF&S system as a few simple calculations is something of an
> understatement.  One of the systems greatest problems was in the final few
> steps where you had to put in a powerplant and allocate fuel.  Inveriably
> you found out some where way up the list you'd over budgeted the beast and
> wound up starting all over again.
>
 
Question is, can't a lot of the stuff be done as straightforward calcs while
letting the more detailed stuff (like weapons design) be off-the-shelf?

> >As far as I can see, it seems like where things might need to be simpler
> >is where there are a near infinite variety of available options, such as
> >in weapons design.  Create a few standard varieties based on experience
> >and make them the options.  And allow those who like greater detail to
> >really optimize them with the full FFS.
> >
> >I guess I'd rather just a simple list of straightforward calculations,
> >even if they involve 3 or 4 multiplications at a time, than having to
> >wade through a ton of tables which limit me to 'standard' hull sizes.
> 
> I'm a great beleiver in the custom hullsize.  Talk a look at Dave Golden's
> page to see what I mean.  The 120 ton Artemis is something I sat up for
> hours figuring out how to cram everything into a single small hull.  It's a
> cramped beast but they refered to the Victix as high strung, hell this thing
> was way beyond high strung, it was damn near insane.
> 
> Derek Stanley

Actually, I think the design is fairly realistic.  It reminds me a lot of
what I saw in the Navy; the average Traveller ship seems like a hotel!

I did six 70-day plus patrols on a Posiedon sub, and the quarters were nothing like 
Traveller (at least CT/HG) required even for military ships.  And the LA fast attacks
are even worse.  The CO & XO have separate staterooms, and other officers are 
stacked three high in a space ~3m x 2m, including bunks, foldup desk, & foldup
 sink.  The CO & XO staterooms are about 3m square and 3m x 2m, respectively, and
they share a head.  The other officers (~11-12) share a common head (3 stalls?).
Riders can be accomodated by wardroom benches which convert to racks.  The enlisted,
CPO & ratings, are all in racks stacked 3 high on either side of a passageway ~1m
wide, with access to ship stores in the deck of crews berthing.  ~ 90 crew share
2 heads on either side of the passageway from crews berthing with a total of 3
showers, 4 stools, and 4 sinks.  All berths (racks) are about 24 in wide except the
CO (and the XO?).  If I was on my back with one arm between myself and the
bulkhead, my other arm was in the asisle - you learn to be careful how you sleep.
Surface ships are in general more spacious, but IMHO, the submarine is closer to
what we want for starship design, what with volume restrictions and operation in 
an inherently hostile environment (vaccuum/underwater).

While I realize that this environment is too cramped for most people, what says
that the average person is able to serve in a spaceship?  The standard rules may
be fine for civilians, but seem excessive for military types or the hardy 
adventurer (obviously character dependant!).

Later,

Matt McL

------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 96 21:48:48 -0600
Subject: Re: T4 Character Types

On 06/08/96 at 12:34 PM,  dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin) said:

>>The Agent Type:
>>Secret Agent. Imperial Agent. Law Enforcement Agent. Insurance Agent?

>Insurance Agent - definitely! "Uh, Sir, your starship must have
>already had that bumper damaged before that Free Trader hit you. I'm
>sorry, but we can't be paying for every little dent and scratch ...."
>Then, the guns come out. Great adventure, eh?

You might be surprised!  <g> Being an insurance agent might be a bit
more than just writing the policy.

Example:  The players are employed as agents of the Actarus Starship
Assurance Corporation, assigned to investigate a series of claims on
missing ships on the route between Azur and Karob.  Is it an uncharted
astrogational hazard?  Pirates?  An organized insurance scam by the
ship owners?

Example:  The player's ship is hired out by a commercial policy agent
of the Imperial Insurance Company ('As solid as the Imperium!').  He
needs transport to various systems as he visits the branches of a
business his company is writing a policy for.

Example:  Cal Peecee spent 20 years as a commercial factor's agent for
Imperial Insurance, then one day he just decided he'd had enough of
the sedate life on Sylean.  Taking his life savings he bought a
partnership in a tramp freighter and set off to see the galaxy.  He
doesn't have a lot of space experience, but he has contacts with
several dozen commercial factors, a good knowledge of commercial trade
in the Imperium, and a great deal of experience in negotiation
contracts.  He'll let his ex-military partners handle flying the ship!

How's that? <G>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 96 22:29:28 -0600
Subject: Re: Skills

On 06/08/96 at 03:54 PM,  Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
said:

>I would include the ability to fix devices into the corresponding
>useage skills (mainly Fire Combat and Battledress), as Derek sugested
>earlier in this list.

Stefan, I'm pretty good at using a computer...can't fix one. I've been
driving a car *many* years, but I'm no auto mechanic. I can use a dish
washer, washing machine, TV set and VCR, couldn't fix any of them! <g>

I went to the hospital the other day for some tests. The
technicians used some pretty sophisticated machines with some
complicated electronics inside. I wouldn't trust them to fix that CAT
scanner and then use it on me!  Would you?

Being able to use a device doesn't mean you can fix that device when
it breaks.  Maybe you can tell when it isn't working, make good
guesses as to why, and *maybe* fix simple malfunctions. Even an expert
user, doesn't imply much when it comes to repair.

Being able to fix a device doesn't mean you can really use it either. 
If you are an expert at repair it does imply you would be able to use
that sort of device a little, but not necessarily at an expert level.

I'd say an expert at both use and repair is very rare.

Eris

ps.  Concerning meanings of words in the American/English language. 
It might be different in your native language, but we have many,
*many* words that are spelled the same and have different meanings. 
Words that are spelled differently, but sound alike.  Words that are
completely different, but have the same meaning.  It makes it tough on
us sometimes, but it also has wonderful opportunities for word play.  

The discussion of "Fencing" is an example:  Fencing in one context is
the art of swordplay, in a different context it is the skill used by a
'Fence' (a person who buys and sells stolen or blackmarket goods), in
a third context it is the act of putting up a fence..or the materials
that make up that fence.  It goes even further, someone might say "He
was fencing with words, fencing me into a corner."  Meaning:  He was
skillfully using words, overcoming all my objections and forcing me to
agree with him. Maybe!  <g>

Because of this wonderful diversity of meaning, we have to see words
within the context of a phrase or sentence before we can be sure of
its meaning (if even then <g>).


- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch) using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 9 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 072

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #68
         2. Re: Religion/Theology
         3. Re: Skills that should be roleplayed
         4. Re: Jet propulsion
         5. Re: Skills
         6. Jets
         7. Re: Jet Propulsion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 09 Jun 1996 00:29:34 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #68

>Instruction  
>[Not default, I teach and it took a while to learn.  Most people are 
>lousy at it on their first try (many are lousy their whole lives).  Maybe 
>I'm too close to the problem, though...]

I agree.  I still cringe at my first year.  Some people are 'naturals', but
then I suppose they took Instruction as a background skill :-)

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 09 Jun 1996 00:19:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Religion/Theology

>I think your suggestion is getting away from the main idea of what skills
>realy are.  Religion/Theology is a set of beliefs not a skill.  For example
>you don't list your religion on your resume.  That would be like having a
>skill called Republican/Democrate to indicate your political views.

Actually, "Theology" is a skill.  Knowing the precepts, dogmas, and so forth
of a religion is an area of knowledge.  The (sad) fact that most church-goers
know little about these aspects of their religion doesn't invalidate it as a
useful skill.

(Parenthetical note: I'm not trying to stir up an argument about a possibly
touchy subject.  Direct flames to me personally, not the list.  For the
record, I'm an Anglican, warden of my church, and on the boundary between
inclusivism and pluralism.)

For many campaigns I could see this as a useless skill, because religions
don't really enter into the game.  But the same could be said for sociology -
many campaigns don't really have different cultures.  However, religion _can_
be important in daily life, and understanding how religions work would be an
important skill for a first-contact team to have.  

I would put Theology/Philosophy in the Social Science skill cluster.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 09 Jun 1996 00:34:33 GMT
Subject: Re: Skills that should be roleplayed

Sounds close to how I do it.  I like your justification better, though.

Another thing I do with my students is use their character's skill/attribute
to modify the player's task.  Thus, is the character had to spot a hidden
message, I would actually give the player a hidden message.  The higher the
character's skill/attribute, the easier it would be to spot the message - but
the player would still have to do some work.

(This is actually like what happens in a fight, where the player decides who
to shoot but it is the character's skills (and luck) that decides where the
bullet goes.)

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:28:05 -0800
Subject: Re: Jet propulsion

On  8 Jun 96 at 18:15, Craig Berry spewed:

> Germany was in fact experimenting with a *rocket* fighter (the Me120, 
> possibly?) toward the end of the WWII; it used a non-air-breathing, 
> all-fuel/mass-on-board propulsion system.

Actually, they had a Rocket fighter in the closing stages of WWII.  I 
believe it was the Me 163.  The designation was Komet.  It had a 
total fuel endurance of about 20 minutes, which meant it wasn't 
exactly built for long-range patrols :-)

The Komet was much more dangerous to its pilots than the Allies, btw. 
 I don't believe there were very many, if any incidents of the Allies 
actually shooting 1 down.  Reports of them exploding on takeoff or 
landing, were very common.  I believe they first saw combat in 
February or March, 1945.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:28:05 -0800
Subject: Re: Skills

On  8 Jun 96 at 22:29, Eris Reddoch spewed:

<snip>

> 
> I'd say an expert at both use and repair is very rare.
> 
> Eris

I agree.  This would most likely be even rarer in the future as defined by 
Traveller...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: prashid@gulf.net (Princess Simpson Rashid)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 04:47:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Jets

>Rockets, however, provide their own oxygen and do not require an inlet such as
>jet engines do.  This allows rockets to function outside of an atmosphere

And all this time I thought there was air in space, give me some credit!!!

Rockets still use the jet propulsion principle to propel themselves.
That was the point of my original statement.
There is no such thing as just a jet engine without some means of producing
the jet.  Turbojets compress air, mix it with fuel and burn it. So do pulsejets
they just do it differently,  Rockets mix LOX with Propellant or use Hydrogen
Peroxide (as with the German rocket plane the Komet it was called.) or
Hydrazine as in the case of many missile solid fuel motors to produce a jet
which propels them.  




Tariq Rashid
- ----------------------------------------------------------
               T & P Rashid International
Providing Name Brand Products & Services Wholesale & Retail
            
            "A Better Way to do Business"

For more info contact us at       Stay tuned for CyberStores 
prashid@gulf.net                           coming soon!

- ------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 09 Jun 96 07:36:05 EDT
Subject: Re: Jet Propulsion

Craig Berry wrote:
>> Germany was in fact experimenting with a *rocket* fighter (the Me120, 
possibly?) toward the end of the WWII; it used a non-air-breathing, 
all-fuel/mass-on-board propulsion system. <<

    The Me 163 Komet was in squadron service from August '44 (with I/JG400).
Intended role was as a counter-bomber 'zerstorer'. A ground-attack fighter using
the V1's Argus ramjet had been designed but did not see service.

                            David


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #72
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Traveller-digest            Sunday, 9 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 073

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. System info in T4
         2. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #63
         3. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #68
         4. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #59
         5. Re: Submarine Service
         6. Re: Barstool Science?
         7. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #63
         8. Re: FFSLite
         9. Re: Jet Propulsion
        10. FLASH: BASIC SHIP COMBAT SYSTEM!
        11. Last words in Theology?
        12. [OFF (a little)] Homepage with Traveller stuff
        13. Making Traveller Seem Truly Futuristic
        14. Re: [X96#66, T96#68] Revised Skills

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 96 03:40:48 PST
Subject: System info in T4

A point I've made many times in the past, but I think bears repeating
is that given jump drive, a simple astronomical sky survey in two
adjacent sectors will give you the positions of every star system for
*thousands* of parsecs, except where there's some sort of nebula in the
way. 

In actual practice, I expect that the Imperium Survey would do it like
this: 

Set up *several* observatories one parsec apart, plus some farther
apart for the future. Use a *big* precisely pointed laser at each end
to send atomic clock signals to the other observatory. This will
(eventually) give you the *exact* distance between the observatories.
What you do is compare clocks, which tells you (probably* how far apart
you are, plus, once the signal gets there, you echo it back to the
sender on another "channel", which refines the figures even more.

Meanwhile, you shoot pictures of the full sphere to a reasonable
precision and scan them into the computers. As time goes on, you
increase the precision. 

Once the 3.26 year lag has passed, you can start determining distances
by parallax. Once the 6.52 year round trip has occurred you have things
nailed pretty damn well.

I'd expect that powerful radio transmitters would broadcast the time
signals omni-directionally as well. Eventually, this would give precise
distances for nearby systems. I'd say that such "benchmark beacons"
should average one for every two subsectors or so. And be tied together
(eventually) with laserlinks to establish a "survey grid" (much like
the USGS system of surveying benchmarks in the US.

Once established (which will take quite some time), this is a godsend
for ships that misjump into empty space (if they have fuel for another
jump). Given the resources on a ship, it's a hell of a lot easier to
determine where you are by rigging up a big antenna and listening for a
while than it is by trying to match stars against a chart!

BTW, if IG is interested, I could expand this, and a few other ideas
into an article on surveying and nacigation, complete with "what do you
do if you jump into empty space" :-)

Note that the observations required to detect *planets* take
considerably longer than the ones required to establish the position
and stellar type of a star. So the maps for the "lost" areas should
have the stars positioned ok, and the stellar type should be known. 

As the survey progresses, nearer stars would get studied to see if they
had planets. This is going to take *years* of observation per star for
anything other than gas giants. So jumping out and looking is a good
idea. 




Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 96 04:14:25 PST
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #63

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> writes:

> Well...  sort of.  I used to be a FO, and it goes like this:  PFC Dan,
> attached to the HQ of a lift-infantry battalion, is alerted by the 2nd
> platoon that they've spotted something.  Getting a visual confirmation of
> their exact location, he contacts the Fire Officer of the battery in support.
> 
> "Romeo-64, this is Bravo-2-6-Sierra"  (note: the silly niknames are never
> used.. try to figure out if Donald just ordered Huey, Duey or Louie to
> attack over a PRC-77 radio)
> 
> "B-26S, go"
> 
> "Fire Mission.  I have five-zero infantry, with three wheeled APC moving
> south along road 19.  Grid reference TW25498792.  Mix HE-Airburst and
> FASCAM.  5 rounds."  (that's 5 rounds from each gun in the battery.. US
> Army, about 40 rounds.. half of which will carry mines)
> 
> At the battery, gun crews enter the information into the ballistic
> computers, as others start packing.  If this is ground based, shoot and
> scoot is the only way of life.

Damn straight! Counter battery fire is murder.

> As for the deadly HELL missles..  I am *not* going to wait 10 minutes for my
> fire support.  Artillery is like CPR: if it doesn't happen quickly, it ain't
> going to help.

Reminds me of an ex-friend. He used to talk about the time in Nam that
they needed fire support *now* (large numbers of NVA on the next hill)
and all the local units were "busy". Finally they patched him thru to
somebody he'd never talked to before. They got the co-ordinates and
gave the usual "on the way" message. It seemed to take a bit longer
than usual. Then the other hill disappeared!

Seems he'd gotten patched thru to the New Jersey.... :-)

Getting back to Traveller, if the ship is in a position to give support
from orbit, it *won't* take any "10 minutes". Assuming nothing more
than a boost that changes the *vector*, but not the velocity of the
projectile, fire from a ship 1000 km up, would impact in 125 seconds. 
Fire support ships are likely to be at more like *100* km, so it'd take
13 seconds. And make a mess of whatever it hit.

Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de> writes:

> Same on research. You seem to understand this not only in an accademic way
> but as something, the Call of Cthulhu rules know as Library Use. (As a
> sidenode "Information Sciences" is unknown in Germany (AFAIK). You'll study
> for a master in history to work at archives, for example)

What do librarians get degrees in? "Information Science" used to be
called "Library Science" or some such.

> What's the skill to shoot with an shoulder rocket thrower? Hvy Weapons?
> What's the skill to use a small MG (20mm) aboard a grav tank? Hvy Weapons?
> What's the skill to use its main fusion gun? Gunnery?
> What's the skill to use the small ground-to-air defense missile? Gunnery?
> 
> If these are the correct answers, I've understood the skills :-)

Sounds about right.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 96 05:07:26 PST
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #68

Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net> writes:

>         Something just occurred to me: the navigational, targeting, and
> sophistication of technology required for ship to ship space combat would
> make FO's obsolete at a certain point.  If a weapons system can  track and
> hit a spacecraft (at a very great distance, at very great speed), then
> surely hitting a target from orbit (nearer by, and moving, far, far more
> slowly) must be within its capabilities.  I can see a battery of modern-day
> howitzers needing some guy with binoculars telling them to walk the fire a
> little east 'cause they've missed a few, but if you've got sensors and
> weapons capable of ship-to-ship combat then frying a few tanks from orbit
> has got to be a piece of cake.  The same argument would probably apply to
> ground-based armaments...

Not quite. Space combat has the advantage that your target has to
behave according to the rules of orbital mechanics. That means that a
lot of forms of dodging we take for granted on the ground just aren't
possible. Predicting where the target will be is much harder.

Second, Forward observers are used for *indirect* fire. That is, for
cases when the unit doing the firing can't see the target. 

You will get better chances of a hit on the first shot as tech
improves. But you still have to deal with the matter of correctly
specifying *where* you are supposed to hit.

And while sensors get better, camoflage, jamming, and "spoofing" get
better too.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 96 02:31:15 PST
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #59

Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de> writes:

> >Archery*
> 
> The use of archaic missle or throwing weapons a default skill? I don't think 

Remember, "default" means that players have skill level 0 in the skill.
In other words, they are allowed to *try* to use the skill. If archery
wasn't a "default" skill, then your character wouldn't be able to
figure out how to use a bow and arrow unless he'd specifically *chosen*
that skill.

> >Armorer
> 
> Building armor on your own? I would drop this skill in favor of some more
> important skil.

The *modern* meaning or "armorer" is someone who builds, maintains (and
at higher skill levels) *designs* weapons, usually firearms. It's an
actual specialty in the armed forces.

> >Equestrian*
> 
> Does this skill also include normal riding (for me, it's a somewhat unusual
> term I had to look up)? Why not call it simple Riding?

Because then some idiot would think it applied to bicycles and
motorcycles. Think of it as "animal riding" as opposed to "machine
riding". 

> >Gunnery
> >Heavy Weapons*
> 
> What's the difference between these two skills? Isn't a cannon a heavy weapon

No. A cannon is artillery. Heavy weapons are thinks like .30 and .50
caliber machineguns, mortars, etc. They get carried by a "heavy weapons
squad" in a platoon (or is that company?). Anyway, they are "crew
served weapons". Portable, but requiring several people.

> >Melee (Armed)*
> 
> That's the difference to blade weapon? (What I'd like to say: think about
> building more general skills where blade weapons are a special case)

Melees are multi person fights. Also, "armed" could mean with clubs,
blades, whatever. :-)

> >Research*
> 
> Can you research something independ from a scientific discipline? As far as
> I know, no German university teach general research but you only learn
> researching together with all other knowledge of the specific discipline.

"research" is a skill taught in secondary schools here. Things like
being able to look things up in the library, understanding *how* card
catalogs and the like help you find the info you are looking for. These
days, I'd add some web-searching skills to it.

Research is merely being able to search for info you don't have in an
organized manner. It doesn't have any connection with science other
than as a skill you need to have to have to do any scientific work
other than perform experiments.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net> writes:

>         I would think that forward observer would be a skill limited to
> either low-tech armies or the equivalent of Special Forces units...  Given
> that militaries as primitive and low-tech as late 20th century American
> forces <grin> show a remarkable trend towards recon drones, satellite
> observation, and the like, wouldn't higher-tech militaries tend to use even
> more sophisticated variants on the same approach?  I'm not saying that F-O
> would be an obsolete skill, just that its usefulness would be limited to
> (relatively rare?) situations where hi-tech means would be useless or
> unavailable.

A forward observer is *not* someone doing recon. He is directing
artillery fire and other froms of "fire support". He's the guy in the
movies on the phone of radio going "Fire mission, grid xx." and "Drop
10 and fire for effect". The folks *firing* the weapons can't see where
they are hitting, so he has to tell them how to adjust their aim.

When drones are used for observing, the person watching the picture the
drone sends back has to have forward observer skill, or he can't give
useful instructions to the artillery battery. It's a skill that'll
alway be around until we get ammo smart enough to find the target on
its own.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Les Howie <lhowie@dilbert.lrmi.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 10:12:56 -0300
Subject: Re: Submarine Service

Matt & Ellen McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu> wrote:

>Actually, I think the design is fairly realistic.  It reminds me a lot of
>what I saw in the Navy; the average Traveller ship seems like a hotel!
>
Thanks for an excellent description


>Riders can be accomodated by wardroom benches which convert to racks.  
I'm not familiar with the term Rider.  Could you explain?


>Surface ships are in general more spacious, but IMHO, the submarine is
closer to
>what we want for starship design, what with volume restrictions and
operation in 
>an inherently hostile environment (vaccuum/underwater).
>
>

This is a defendable point of view.  Just to play devil's advocate, small
hull size is an important part of the survivability of a sub, since it
contributes to the ability of the hull to resist exterior pressure: the
number one consideration, certainly.  For space craft, this is not exactly
true (sensor profile and radiation shielding are factors, though).  The
trade off of crew comfort (which is of some importance, if only in
simplifying recuiting) and ease and speed of movement though the ship
against the virtues of small size might come out with a slightly less
cramped optimum than your average attack boat.  Subs do how exceedingly
generous the traveller stateroom allotments are.
Les Howie
Senior Software Developer
NovaLIS Technologies
Halifax NS
lhowie@novalis.ca


------------------------------

From: "Christopher Weuve" <caw@intercon.com>
Date: Sat,  8 Jun 1996 16:01:42 -0400
Subject: Re: Barstool Science?

I said:
> > Actually, I think they should go with the FFS approach, where there 
> > were 'official' technologies (e.g., jump drive), but unofficial 
> > variants.  The answer to the problem of variants unbalancing things 
> > is simple: (1) don't use them in your campaign; (2) make them a 
> > very high tech level. 

Stuart Dollar replied:
> Actually, this would be the worst thing they could do...at least for 
> the purposes of developing the (OH GOD IT'S THAT WORD AGAIN!) canon.  
> Nobody is going to buy into a universe that has two different (and in 
> some cases diametrically opposed) assumptions on which to base 
> its universe... 

I don't think I was clear in my original post (by 'official', I meant 
'canon'), which was in response to a question about the "thruster plate or 
HEPlaR" debate.  I think IG should go with thruster plates as 'canon' but 
include HEPlaR (and stutterwarp) rules as well.  Wes Payne had said that IG 
needed to pick one or the other technology, because a ship using thruster 
plates instead "would have a huge inherent advantage over those using 
physically correct (PC?) HEPlaR drives, unless some game-balancing rule was 
imposed"  such as limiting what the excess space could be used for.  I agree 
with the diagnosis but disagree with the prescription; I think it can be 
balanced by making thruster plates a much higher tech level.

If GMs don't want to use thruster plates, they can use an alternative.  If 
they want to use both, then increase the TL needed for thruster plate 
technology.

Given that almost every Traveller player I've ever met (either on the 'net or 
in person) has tinkered with something in the official universe, it makes 
sense to provide a few alternatives in the design sequence, even if those 
alternatives aren't supported with 'official' ship designs. 

> As far as having alternate technologies at a high (read Beyond 
> Imperial Maximum) tech level, its great, but only as long as the 
> alternate technology does something spectacular for me.  If I've bought 
> a TL15 ship, with Thruster technology, and I stumble upon an 
> Ancient artifact ship that's TL21, but has HEPlaR that creates the 
> same speed, I'm not exactly going to get excited... 

No, but you _will_ get excited if you have a TL 15 HEPlaR ship and discover a 
TL 21 Ancients ship with thruster plates...

Christopher Weuve  [caw@intercon.com]
Through sheer random chance, my employer may 
someday agree with something I say.


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 10:27:16 -0600
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #63

At 04:14 am 6/9/96 PST, you wrote:
>Getting back to Traveller, if the ship is in a position to give support
>from orbit, it *won't* take any "10 minutes". Assuming nothing more

        Key phrase ... "in position" ... depending on the orbit, you could
be minutes to hours away from being "in position" when the request comes in.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 09:30:23 -0700
Subject: Re: FFSLite

>> I'm a great beleiver in the custom hullsize.  Talk a look at Dave Golden's
>> page to see what I mean.  The 120 ton Artemis is something I sat up for
>> hours figuring out how to cram everything into a single small hull.  It's a
>> cramped beast but they refered to the Victix as high strung, hell this thing
>> was way beyond high strung, it was damn near insane.
>> 
>> Derek Stanley
>
>Actually, I think the design is fairly realistic.  It reminds me a lot of
>what I saw in the Navy; the average Traveller ship seems like a hotel!
>
>I did six 70-day plus patrols on a Posiedon sub, and the quarters were
nothing like 
>Traveller (at least CT/HG) required even for military ships.  And the LA
fast attacks
>are even worse.  The CO & XO have separate staterooms, and other officers are 
>stacked three high in a space ~3m x 2m, including bunks, foldup desk, & foldup
> sink.  The CO & XO staterooms are about 3m square and 3m x 2m,
respectively, and
>they share a head.  The other officers (~11-12) share a common head (3
stalls?).
>Riders can be accomodated by wardroom benches which convert to racks.  The
enlisted,
>CPO & ratings, are all in racks stacked 3 high on either side of a
passageway ~1m
>wide, with access to ship stores in the deck of crews berthing.  ~ 90 crew
share
>2 heads on either side of the passageway from crews berthing with a total of 3
>showers, 4 stools, and 4 sinks.  All berths (racks) are about 24 in wide
except the
>CO (and the XO?).  If I was on my back with one arm between myself and the
>bulkhead, my other arm was in the asisle - you learn to be careful how you
sleep.
>Surface ships are in general more spacious, but IMHO, the submarine is
closer to
>what we want for starship design, what with volume restrictions and
operation in 
>an inherently hostile environment (vaccuum/underwater).
>
>While I realize that this environment is too cramped for most people, what says
>that the average person is able to serve in a spaceship?  The standard
rules may
>be fine for civilians, but seem excessive for military types or the hardy 
>adventurer (obviously character dependant!).

So you're saying you approve.

I watched every submarine movie I could just to design that beast.  Actually
it came through in a number of different modifications untill it finally
reached the stage it is now.  It orignially had two missle bays and no cargo
space but that got changed along the way as the design became tighter and
tigher.  Some one suggested I make the crew hot bunk it in an attempt to
save space and get some more cargo room.  I tossed the idea reasoning on a
ship this tight who really needs the stress of sharing your bunk with some
one else?

I'm rather proud of her and I have two more designs to post to Dave's site.

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 09:56:01 -0800
Subject: Re: Jet Propulsion

On  9 Jun 96 at 7:36, David Gillon spewed:

> 
>     The Me 163 Komet was in squadron service from August '44 (with I/JG400).
> Intended role was as a counter-bomber 'zerstorer'. A ground-attack fighter using
> the V1's Argus ramjet had been designed but did not see service.
> 

Thanks for the clarification.  I knew that the plane existed, but had 
no idea it came into service as early as it did.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 11:21:28 -0600
Subject: FLASH: BASIC SHIP COMBAT SYSTEM!

        The MMT basic ship combat system is now available for review and
comments at

http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/Traveller/Admiralty/FFSLight/ShipCombat.html.

        It's also linked off the main page of the FFSLight project.

        Please review it and testplay it! Also see how well it works with
the FF&S Light ship design sequence ...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: pierre-louis constantin <Pierre-Louis.Constantin@DMI.USherb.CA>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 14:17:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Last words in Theology?

Hello!

        Since I started the (wrecking) ball rolling about the 
Religion/Theology skill I thought I should reply to some of the 
ideas and comment you have all sent.

First off, I do not see how a theology skill can be more shocking 
than say, a heavy firearms skill.  (No I won't go into the fact that 
both can cause people to die.)  A lot of people do have religions, 
and not necessarily the same as ours.  If I am shocked by the use of
another religion (especially a make-believe one!) in a game, then I 
am the one who is is bigoted and close-minded.  Everybody can profit
from a healthy exchange of ideas - especially in the field of 
religious beliefs, where a lot of ideas have the same sources.  If I 
really cannot admit another religion in your game, then I make sure 
my referee respects my wishes and only allow the religion of my 
character to come into play.  

Note that Traveller does mention religions in his rules, and one of
the leaders (Lucan?) is part of a well-known (Traveller) religious
group.  Traveller is not 'politically correct' in that way, thank
God.  <grin>  (yes, that was sort of a pun :)

Anwyays. :)  Now that wasn't much of a help for the T4 skill issue so
let's move on to that now. :)

My original idea was to put the Religion/Theology as a Scholar skill.
After reading some of the comments I've come ot the conclusion that 
my original idea was ill-defined.  We also have to take into account
that only skills that HAVE an effect on the game should be noted
on the character sheet.

1) Religion is NOT a skill.  It is faith in a system of belief.  
Therefore there cannot be a skill named 'Religion' beyond what the
common practitionner of that religion knows.  If it is absolutely
required by the referee, he could add a Religion-0 as a default skill
for people who come from planets with heavy emphasis on religion.
However we can just treat Scholar(Theology)-0 as being Religion-0 so
we can save some room and ink in the book. :).  This skill would
be used most of the time to avoid a blunder and upset local mores.

2) Theology is the study religions, and therefore very much a
skill.  Only "scholars" have this skill and so it should be reserved
for that character class.  You should be able to study one or more 
religion - one can easily imagine running into a white-haired 
university professor who has spent his time studying the ideas 
common to two distinct religious groups at two opposite ends of the 
galaxy, and postulating a visit by space travellers, for example.

3) Sociology is a skill that CAN include the study of religious 
groups.  This skill can be a good thing to have for a scout, for 
example, and has good potential for role-playing.  Moreso than the 
Theology skill, which would probably only be used by NPCs in certain 
encounters (say for example, running into an Aslan priest and asking 
him about what happened to make the Aslan clans stop fighting).  A 
sociologist would be able to understand why certain rites are done 
and such - a theologian would know exactly what the symbolism of the 
rites are. Sociology skill should give a character the chance to 
avoid a blunder in any society.

So to resume my point:
Add a Scholar(Sociology) skill to the Scholar skills.
Optionnally, Give a Scholar(Theology)-0 (D) skill to characters from 
Non-Balkanised Religious places.
Optionnally, Give Scholar(Theology) skills to religious scholars 
characters.

Sorry for being long-winded, but I tried to take all comments into 
accounts.  I'd like to conclude by saying that I think that Religions
already are a good part of Traveller and actually taking them into 
account in the rules can improve the game.  


PS:  "Planetography" is more accurate than "Geography" I believe. :)

- -- 
Pierre-Louis Constantin, ift. a. 	"He whose name was writ in E-mail."
	Independentist: My Canada excludes the federal bureaucracy :)
(: "I hate fanatics with a passion; all extremists should be shot." :)

------------------------------

From: Mark Seemann <mark@dk-online.dk>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 20:40:48 +-200
Subject: [OFF (a little)] Homepage with Traveller stuff

Hello fellow Travellers

Sorry for the crossposting and waste of bandwith (if someone should think of this message as such).

My homepage is now on the net, and with that a small amount of Traveller stuff. Check it out if you want to. The address is

http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann/

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann/


------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 12:22:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Making Traveller Seem Truly Futuristic

Hi-

I just received the latest (July 1996) issue of Popular Science magazine.
It has an article on the new technologies the US is using in Bosnia. 
Except for anti-gravity and lasers, the devices described in this article
are significantly more advanced than most of the devices described in CT
and than many described in MT or TNE. 

I am worried, though hopeful, that T4 will finally result in a SF game
that won't seem anachronistic in 5 years. I guess this is part of what
Vernor Vinge means about the approaching singularity. 

In any event, the article is worth reading as a description of what folks 
can do at TL 8 (with perhaps TL 9 computer/electronic capability)


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 96 15:42:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [X96#66, T96#68] Revised Skills

(Continued from previous message)

 accurate and useful map of the area.

 ::>Survival [Not default, lots of people have died cuz they didn't know not
 ::>to drink salt water.]

 Or not to eat snow.  You got this one straight!




 If I'm not mistaken, Wildstar is the list admin for GDW-Beta.  It
 might be worthwhile to ask him if this discussion, which is
 starting to get long, should be moved over there.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 þ OLXWin 1.00b þ I don't think, therefore I work for the Government.


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #73
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 10 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 074

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Draft Skill List for T4:  Language (specific)
         2. Re: Jet propulsion
         3. Re: Jets
         4. Re: Making Traveller Seem Truly Futuristic
         5. Re: Submarine Service
         6. Survival skill
         7. Languages (translators)
         8. M3-163
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #73
        10. FO
        11. Important 5K1LL5 Consideration
        12. Swimming
        13. Re: California's Subversive Organization Registration Law

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 13:28:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Draft Skill List for T4:  Language (specific)

I sent this to Marc Miller, but thought that I would post it here for your
comments.

On Wed, 5 Jun 1996 18:26:21, you posted to the xboat list:

>Draft List (Subject to Revision).
>This list provides the basic character types and the range of skills which
>will be available in the character generation process in T4.

>Consolidated Skill List (* indicates Default Skills [see below])

>Language (Specific)

I'm pleased to see this, I think, after having had to make up my own
language rules for many years.  How do you imagine this skill working in
practice?  I've usually broken language out somewhat as follows (this is not
complete and may have some inconsistencies, but I present it as something
that may help you formulate your use of this skill):

Language involves two sub-skills:  oral and written (in my own experience,
these are actually four skills -- speak, listen, read, write -- and I have
different abilities in each of the four in each of the seven foreign
languages that I know, but that much complexity isn't necessary or desirable
in a role-playing game). 

Languages are of two kinds:  native and foreign.  Languages fall into
language groups (Romance languages:  Latin, French, Italian, Spanish,
Rumanian, etc.; Gvegh languages:  Gvegh, Arrghoun, etc.).

A character can be a native speaker of up to two languages (determined
during homeworld and family generation).  Native languages need not be of
the same language group.  No task roll is necessary to communicate orally in
a native language. No task roll is necessary to communicate in writing in a
native language if Education 4+ (if edu 3, difficulty is difficult; edu 2,
formidable, edu 1 impossible).

Each foreign language is learned in two steps:  oral, then written.  So a
character would first get Zhetl/oral-1, then Zhetl/written-1 (if edu 3+),
and then would get to choose which to add.  So a character could have
Zhetl/oral-3 and Zhetl/written-1, or Zhetl/oral-2 and Zhetl/written-2, e.g.
I always assumed that characters learned at least basic writing skills.

Foreign languages may be learned before age 18 in school as well as during
character generation.  Education and social levels at age 18 determine
foreign languages, limited or increased by intelligence.  I don't remember
the details.

Foreign languages may also be learned during character generation.  I used
to add "language" to the available skill list where appropriate, such as
intelligence school.  The first time the PC got a language skill, s/he would
then roll against a table to see which language. Thereafter, s/he would have
to roll rank or something similar to avoid having to take another level of
the same language.  

To understand or express oneself in a foreign language in which the
character has no skill is an impossible task.  If the language is in the
same language group as one in which the character has any skill, it is a
formidable task.  The task difficulty is reduced one level for each two or
three levels of skill in related languages.  Only oral skill levels can be
applied to oral communication, and only written to written.  

To understand or express oneself in a foreign language in which the
character has any skill is a difficult task, reduced one level of difficulty
for each level of appropriate language skill (oral or written).

I don't remember how I handled hivers without a translation device.

I hope that you find the foregoing useful.  Please don't hesitate to contact
me with any questions.  I've enjoyed the game for a long time (since 1978 or
'79), and look forward to T4.

Good luck!

- --Glenn M. Goffin
sudet@well.com


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 20:29:13 GMT
Subject: Re: Jet propulsion

=> The Komet was much more dangerous to its pilots than the Allies, btw. 
=>  I don't believe there were very many, if any incidents of the Allies 
=> actually shooting 1 down.  Reports of them exploding on takeoff or 
=> landing, were very common.  I believe they first saw combat in 
=> February or March, 1945.

I believe the pilot actually sat between the two volitile fule tank.  Makes you
wonder how much the pilots actually knew of their aircraft (especially an
aircraft who's landing gear stayed on the ground after takeoff).

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 21:34:25 GMT
Subject: Re: Jets

=> >Rockets, however, provide their own oxygen and do not require an inlet such
=> >as jet engines do.  This allows rockets to function outside of an atmosphere
=> 
=> And all this time I thought there was air in space, give me some credit!!!
=> Rockets still use the jet propulsion principle to propel themselves.
=> That was the point of my original statement.

Maybe I would have given you some credit if you would have better explained
yourself back then instead of replying bluntly to the following statement...

>What about rocket propulsion for aircraft. German's did in
>WWII.

with...

"Rockets use Jet propulsion."

I think it was quite obvious that the original author (who it was, I do not
know, since you renamed this thread) did not mean to use the Webster's
definition of "jet propulsion" but was referring to the engineering of the
technology used by the Reich for their Me 163's.

------------------------------

From: Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 17:09:07 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Making Traveller Seem Truly Futuristic

On Sun, 9 Jun 1996, John R. Snead wrote:

> Hi-
> 
> I just received the latest (July 1996) issue of Popular Science magazine.
> It has an article on the new technologies the US is using in Bosnia. 
> Except for anti-gravity and lasers, the devices described in this article
> are significantly more advanced than most of the devices described in CT
> and than many described in MT or TNE. 
> 
> I am worried, though hopeful, that T4 will finally result in a SF game
> that won't seem anachronistic in 5 years. I guess this is part of what
> Vernor Vinge means about the approaching singularity. 
> 
> In any event, the article is worth reading as a description of what folks 
> can do at TL 8 (with perhaps TL 9 computer/electronic capability)
> 

In my opinion this is an honest mistake that CT's designers made. By
far the worst offense was in computers but that was understandable
because in 1983 a cheap and powerful computer was a Digital PDP-11 and
the model of computing was time-sharing one powerful CPU. CT assumed a
linear evolution of computers along this model e.g. a more powerful
single CPU system, CT didn't anticipate the paradigm shift to a cheap
processor on every desk and communications in between model that we
have today. In 1977 the PC was little more than a toy with no
applications to take it from hobbiest circles that it occupied so who
could have guessed that in 1983 IBM would take the hobbiest toy and
turn it into a business toy sparking the entire microprocessor
industry. 

I do hope that the starships of T4 take advantage of cheap local
microprocessor controlled technology and networks much as cars and
racing sailboats do today. But I cannot blame them for not seeing this 
technology in 1977.

Chris
- --
      __o          "All I was doing was trying to get home from work."
    _`\<,_           -Rosa Parks
___(*)/_(*)___________________________________________________________
Christopher Sean Hilton                           <chris@vindaloo.com>
                           For pgp key finger: <chilton@shoga.wwa.com>


------------------------------

From: Matt & Ellen McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 19:20:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Submarine Service

Les Howie wrote:
> 
> Matt & Ellen McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu> wrote:
> 
> >Riders can be accomodated by wardroom benches which convert to racks.
> I'm not familiar with the term Rider.  Could you explain?

Basically, a rider is a person on board on a temporary basis who
is not a member of ship's force.  This may be an inspector, a 
tech team testing new equipment, or some kind of a special ops 
or spook group.  Since there is no room for 'spare' berthing, 
this typically causes a shortfall of berthing.  This is more
likely in the case where equpipment upgrades have increased
crew requirements above design specs.  I know that my boat (a
posiedon type) had foldaway racks in the lower level of the
missle compartment.  My understanding is that it is not unusual
for the (very) junior (and unqualified) guys to have to hot rack
it (3 men/two bunks) on the fast attacks.
> 
> >Surface ships are in general more spacious, but IMHO, the submarine is
> closer to
> >what we want for starship design, what with volume restrictions and
> operation in
> >an inherently hostile environment (vaccuum/underwater).
> >
> >
> 
> This is a defendable point of view.  Just to play devil's advocate, small
> hull size is an important part of the survivability of a sub, since it
> contributes to the ability of the hull to resist exterior pressure: the
> number one consideration, certainly. 

This is definitely the case!

> For space craft, this is not exactly
> true (sensor profile and radiation shielding are factors, though).  The
> trade off of crew comfort (which is of some importance, if only in
> simplifying recuiting) and ease and speed of movement though the ship
> against the virtues of small size might come out with a slightly less
> cramped optimum than your average attack boat.  Subs do how exceedingly
> generous the traveller stateroom allotments are.
> Les Howie
> Senior Software Developer
> NovaLIS Technologies
> Halifax NS
> lhowie@novalis.ca

Agreed that the hull pressure issue is not an issue as such. (Unless you
have a team which likes to submerge, which I, playing with a bunch
of bubbleheads (USN slang for submariners), did run into.  As I recall,
was allowed by CT, or was it HG?  I'll have to check.)  There are
still considerations such as the amount of material required for 
construction, the price and mass of drives, fuel, etc., and the amount
of breathable air which your life support must maintain.  It seems that
the idea of ship design, particularly military, would be to minimize 
these for a given weapons capability, with some sacrifice in creature
comforts being acceptable.

Of course the sub is the extreme case.  Someone on one of the lists (I
think GDW-Beta) figured a 6k ton H2O displacement sub at about 450 Td
H2.  Picture a 450 Td SDB with a crew of 150!  At two per stateroom and
4 Td per SR, 75% of your craft would be berthing!  Even surface ships,
particularly smaller ones, cram the people in there, stacked 3 high,
albeit with a bit more width in and between racks.

Oh well, methinks that horse is dead.   I am doing a (rough) estimate
of the average volume per person for such things as galley and lounge 
space on the sub, I'll pop it up here when it's done.

Later,

Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 17:23:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Survival skill

> From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
> 
>  ::>Survival [Not default, lots of people have died cuz they didn't know not
>  ::>to drink salt water.]
> 
>  Or not to eat snow.  You got this one straight!

The interesting thing is that this might properly be a cascade, with 
area(s) of specialization and lesser skill transfering to others.  For 
example, I hike and camp in the desert a great deal, and have made it my 
business to learn how to survive there.  I know about diagnosis and 
treatment of sunstroke and heat exhaustion, dehydration, cactus injuries, 
snakebite, and so forth, along with general first aid.  I know where I 
might find water in the Mojave...and also know how low the odds are that 
I'd succeed in doing so.  *However*, I know zilch about, say, Arctic 
survival, or jungle survival, or grasslands survival.  Drop me onto the 
tundra, and some of my desert survival skills will transfer.  A lot 
won't, though.  Having a single "Survival" skill might be justified in 
terms of simplicity -- but it's not especially realistic.

In terms of back-country cluelessness, my all-time favorite story was of a
group who became lost on a desert day hike, and proceeded to climb *up* a
nearby mountain -- away from shade, rescuers, possible water, roads, et al
- -- because they decided they'd be more visible to search helicopters up
there.  They were found (by searchers on foot, by the way), but it may
have been a net loss for the human gene pool that this was the case. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: Matt & Ellen McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 19:59:50 -0500
Subject: Languages (translators)

So at what TL do autotranslators become available and how does their
effectiveness change with TL?  Oh, and how about the fish from Hitch-
hikers Guide? ;)

Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 08:57:49 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: M3-163

>From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
>Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:28:05 -0800
>Subject: Re: Jet propulsion
>
>On  8 Jun 96 at 18:15, Craig Berry spewed:
>
>> Germany was in fact experimenting with a *rocket* fighter (the Me120, 
>> possibly?) toward the end of the WWII; it used a non-air-breathing, 
>> all-fuel/mass-on-board propulsion system.
>
>Actually, they had a Rocket fighter in the closing stages of WWII.  I 
>believe it was the Me 163.  The designation was Komet.  It had a 
>total fuel endurance of about 20 minutes, which meant it wasn't 
>exactly built for long-range patrols :-)
>
>The Komet was much more dangerous to its pilots than the Allies, btw. 
> I don't believe there were very many, if any incidents of the Allies 
>actually shooting 1 down.  Reports of them exploding on takeoff or 
>landing, were very common.  I believe they first saw combat in 
>February or March, 1945.
>
>Stu

        Another drawback of the Me-163 was that one of the propellants
combusted on contact with human flesh.  The aircraft itself was apparently a
sound design from the aerodynamic standpoint; it's just that the lack of
landing gear (you took off from a dropaway dolly and skidded to a landing on
a ventral fin), and the unbelievably dangerous propulsion system had this
really bad synergy going :).
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 18:19:24 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #73

At 03:53 PM 6/9/96 -0400, Leonard Erickson wrote:

>Getting back to Traveller, if the ship is in a position to give support
>from orbit, it *won't* take any "10 minutes". Assuming nothing more
>than a boost that changes the *vector*, but not the velocity of the
>projectile, fire from a ship 1000 km up, would impact in 125 seconds. 
>Fire support ships are likely to be at more like *100* km, so it'd take
>13 seconds. And make a mess of whatever it hit.

Include the "mechanical time" of making sure the correct round is loaded,
training the missle launcher, uploading the shot parameters to the missles..
now add crew fatigue and indifference (the "I'm not being shot at" syndrome
that affects some artillery types).

>A forward observer is *not* someone doing recon. He is directing
>artillery fire and other froms of "fire support". He's the guy in the
>movies on the phone of radio going "Fire mission, grid xx." and "Drop
>10 and fire for effect". The folks *firing* the weapons can't see where
>they are hitting, so he has to tell them how to adjust their aim.
>
>When drones are used for observing, the person watching the picture the
>drone sends back has to have forward observer skill, or he can't give
>useful instructions to the artillery battery. It's a skill that'll
>alway be around until we get ammo smart enough to find the target on
>its own.

And drones make people nervous.  There is only one reason to fly an
expensive drone over an area where it might take fire, and that is that a
world of hurt is planned for the region.  A trained FO, hiding in a bush,
can call in literally tons of fireworks without giving up the show.  The
first hint that something is wrong is the whistle of incoming (or, at higher
TLs, your point-defence gun opens up).

Picture the scene on most Fire Support ships...  panicked calls from all
over the planet, a limited supply of missles..


# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 09:19:08 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: FO

>
>Not quite. Space combat has the advantage that your target has to
>behave according to the rules of orbital mechanics. That means that a
>lot of forms of dodging we take for granted on the ground just aren't
>possible. Predicting where the target will be is much harder.

        But the point is is that dodging something like that 16" naval shell
from the New Jersey (to use a low-tech example) is going to be really,
really hard even if you're moving at 60 MPH, especially when it's targeted
with a system that can handle the demands of ship-to-ship combat.

>
>Second, Forward observers are used for *indirect* fire. That is, for
>cases when the unit doing the firing can't see the target. 

        Right... and if you've got satellites, ships, or other eyes in the
sky, there won't be much of need to put a lowly grunt, with a visual range
of a few kilometers and using the primitive MKI Eyeball, perhaps with some
assists, into harms way...

>
>You will get better chances of a hit on the first shot as tech
>improves. But you still have to deal with the matter of correctly
>specifying *where* you are supposed to hit.

        Which, arguably, could be done more effectively and economically
with machines.  Why do you think the US puts so much money into spy
satellites and surveillance drones?

>
>And while sensors get better, camoflage, jamming, and "spoofing" get
>better too.
>

        True... My take on the FO thing is just that it seems to be the sort
of skill that'd be very useful in the brief technological window between
getting decent artillery and developing good battlefield  surveillance
drones (which, I'll note, are already being deployed by many nations).
Gamewise, it strikes me as a rather specialized military skill that wouldn't
be found across as wide a range of planets and TL's as would any of the
social sciences, for example.  I guess it just depends on the sort of game
you're gunning for: if you want something with lots of emphasis on the
military, FO makes sense.  If you want a system that can reflect a broader
range of SF adventures, it doesn't... 
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 20:07:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Important 5K1LL5 Consideration

I can't exactly say that I've been watching the ongoing T4 character 
skills debate with much fascination, but I now feel compelled to 
interject something into the discussion which I feel hasn't adequately 
been addressed yet.  No, I'm not going to bore you with "my own" full 
list of skills for Traveller players, I'm not going to repost someone 
else's list of skills with my own counterpoint-for-point comments after 
each one, and I'm not going to go on about how certain skills are 
important or how others are not.

In Classic Traveller, it was not possible for a character to amass a 
great deal of skills during their pre-adventurer career, and the 
distinctions between different skill levels were not fine ones.  The 
INT+EDU limit on total number of skill levels knowable was, in my 
opinion, a somewhat arbitrary limit, but it did serve to discourage 
people from running excessively long careers during character 
generation.  One of the biggest pains in the butt I've suffered as a 
referee is trying to find ways of integrating former colonels into 
parties of former lieutenants.

Also, in CT, there was quite a bit of difference between different skill 
levels, depending on the skill.  Medical-1, for instance, was a basic 
medic or EMT, while characters desiring to be surgeons needed to get 
Medical-3.  Level 1 was competent, Level 3 was expert, and anyone with 4 
or higher (except in combat skills) was nigh godlike.  When working with 
a 2d6 statistical range, it didn't take much skill to give a character an 
advantage.  Of course, one of my biggest gripes about CT and MT was the 
number of different modifiers one often had to dig up to resolve the 
results of task attempts.

With TNE, and its 1d20 statistical range, the calculus of character 
skills shifted quite a bit.  Now, it was possible for characters to amass 
a great number of different skills, or high levels in a few skills, over 
a small number of terms.  The balancing factor against this was that now 
characters had to have higher levels of a certain skill to gain the same 
advantages than they had to in CT and MT.  In order to gain the same 
effect of a level 3 skill from CT or MT, one needed at least 5 or 6 in 
the equivalent TNE skill.  The advantage was that, with a greater number 
of different skills possible, an individual character could be defined in 
greater detail.  A character that became a medical doctor in order to 
satisfy the prerequisites for getting into a career as a psionic 
researcher could be employed (in an adventurer capacity) as a ship's 
medic (normally a somewhat boring job) with some interesting diplomatic 
talents ("Wait!  You're not sick, you're just malingering!").  Of course, 
it was still possible for a character to take too many terms during 
character generation, or switch careers too many times, and come up with 
someone who's just "too big" for the rest of the party, which led me to 
impose some limits on what players could or couldn't do while rolling up 
a new character.  Some things never change.

One of the things that I liked about the TNE skill and task resolution 
system was that, provided you added up your assets (skills + controlling 
attributes) ahead of time, figuring out required rolls was quite easy -- 
just figure the target number depending on how difficult the task was (a 
multiple or fraction of the asset), and roll that number or less to 
succeed.  Rarely, if ever, did one have to dig around the rulebooks for 
all of the necessary modifiers.  Of course, this was a shock for players 
used to AD&D.  "I rolled a 20!  That's good, right?"

So, rather than arguing about how big the skill list ought to be or which 
one should be included at this point, perhaps it would be better to know 
how the character generation and task resolution procedures are going to 
go.  If opportunities to gain (or improve) skills will be limited, and 
there are significant advantages between different levels in a single 
skill (as in CT/MT), then keep the skill list small, and the skills 
themselves general (like Combat Rifleman instead of Rifle, Autorifle, 
SMG, Shotgun, and Laser Rifle).  On the other hand, if characters can 
gain a larger number of skills during their career, and it's easier to 
improve old skills and learn new ones during the course of a campaign, 
and if higher skill levels are needed to gain the same advantages (as in 
TNE), then the skill list should be more comprehensive, and the skills 
themselves more specific.

I've been playing (and refereeing) Traveller since the Little Black 
Books, and of all the systems I've used, I prefer TNE the most.  It 
allows the greatest detail for individual characters, and the wider 
statistical range allows a greater variety of possible results to a given 
task attempt.  Naturally there are some things I'd change (such as 
Strength being the major factor in marksmanship), but I feel that, when 
compared to CT and MT, it offers the best balance of character detail, 
task detail, and ease of use.

I'm not sure that I'll find arguments citing CT and MT as having simpler 
task resolution systems very credible, but I agree that the TNE character 
generation system can be a daunting obstacle to the new player.  What 
skills are important?  Which backgrounds offer the best skills?  Those 
are hard questions to answer for someone unfamiliar with the rules 
system.  If the new character generation system is going to be closer to 
TNE than to CT or MT, or if whoever's doing it is leaning toward the 
older systems because they're afraid that the new systems will be found 
to be too complex, I've got a suggestion:

Obviously, pre-generated characters are out.  Who wants to run someone 
else's character?  However, you might try what other RPG systems refer to 
as archetypes (I first ran into this while playing Mechwarrior).  One can 
prioritize what they feel is most important for their character (such as 
skills, starting equipment, or other advantages).  These choices will 
lead to a list of what types of skills the character will have, and at 
what levels.  A possible example:  I want a former military character 
that will make a good mercenary.  Starting equipment isn't important (the 
patron will supply it, probably), but I want a few extra initiative 
points and rich parents, so my priorities are:  Skills, Background, 
Advantages, and Equipment.  The result is a three-term Marine officer 
with a social standing of 9 (not quite nobility), an extra initiative 
point, and a 0.75 modifier to starting cash.  The skill package includes 
two expert-level skills, three high-level skills, four mid-level skills, 
and six low-level skills, all chosen from the Army and Default skills lists.
Obviously, this example makes quite a few assumptions about the final 
shape that T4 will take, but hopefully it illustrates my point.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 20:51:11 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Swimming

I've always liked the scene in many movies in which two people who have just
escaped death in numerous, hideous ways can now escape, but must cross water
to do so.  

Adventurer 1:  We're almost there!  follow me!
Adventurer 2:  But I can't swim!
Adventurer 1:  #&@)&!!+=\|~ !!

So I'd recommend that swimming not be a default skill, but be given
automatically to everyone in the Army, Marines, and Scouts (and to everyone
who goes through college -- I had to take a swimming test, along with the
rest of the class, when I started college), and be available to every other
career (maybe in the "Rogue's life" table).

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 12:08:50 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Re: California's Subversive Organization Registration Law

        Just got a progress report from Karen; here's what I replied:

>To: "KAREN CHEONG" <CHEONG_K@LSA.Lan.McGill.CA>
>From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
>Subject: Re: California's Subversive Organization Registration Law
>
>At 11:30 PM 6/9/96 EST5EDT, KAREN CHEONG wrote:
>>Hey Rod!
[social stuff snipped]
>>Do you still want me to work on that bibliography for you? Write back 
>>and tell me.
>>
>>Karen


        What?  It isn't done already?  

<pupils dilate; face goes white; hair sticks straight up>

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA<pant>AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA<gasp>
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA<cough>aaaaaaaaaaaaaaa<wheeze>aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa<thud>...

<twitching; weak respiratory-distress noises; assumption of fetal position>

   

     Yes.  Please :). Sooner the better.  I've done the M5 issue list
already, and started in on the briefing book.  If you can get a bibliography
in to me as soon as humanly possible I'd be eternally grateful, 'cause then
I could stop making this stuff up as I go along :).  Please confirm if you
get this... If I don't hear from you in 24 hours I'll assume that the LAN
went down before you got this and I'll call you at an ungodly hour :). 


        Anyhow, I had a great weekend yesterday: Saturday I wandered around
Tsim Sha Tsui until it got dark and took some pics of neon signs and the HK
skyline, and then yesterday I went to the aviary in Hong Kong Park (my idea
of the Earthly Paradise; too cool) and then slogged up one of the mountains
of Lantau in the afternoon.  I hope the pics turn out.  I'm shooting 2-3
rolls a weekend here; I'm going to have an ungodly large stack of them by
the time I get back.
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #74
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 10 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 075

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Swimming
         2. TNE vs. CT/MT
         3. default skills

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Matt & Ellen McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 23:26:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Swimming

Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> I've always liked the scene in many movies in which two people who have just
> escaped death in numerous, hideous ways can now escape, but must cross water
> to do so.
> 
> Adventurer 1:  We're almost there!  follow me!
> Adventurer 2:  But I can't swim!
> Adventurer 1:  #&@)&!!+=\|~ !!
> 
> So I'd recommend that swimming not be a default skill, but be given
> automatically to everyone in the Army, Marines, and Scouts (and to everyone
> who goes through college -- I had to take a swimming test, along with the
> rest of the class, when I started college), and be available to every other
> career (maybe in the "Rogue's life" table).
> 
> --Glenn
Interesting concept, but I, for instance, am at best a Swim-0 after 6 years in the
(US) submarine force.  Of course, the likelihood of swimming being terribly useful
 if a sub sinks if just a bit on the low side! :)

Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 00:28:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: TNE vs. CT/MT

On Sun, 9 Jun 1996, Wes Payne wrote:
> or higher (except in combat skills) was nigh godlike.  When working with 
> a 2d6 statistical range, it didn't take much skill to give a character an 
> advantage.  Of course, one of my biggest gripes about CT and MT was the 

  Indeed - this is one of the things I positively detested from the CT
system. When GURPS appeared, it wasn't long before I was using that in CT
campaigns! Of course, this doesn't solve your modifiers complaint...

> With TNE, and its 1d20 statistical range, the calculus of character 
> skills shifted quite a bit.  Now, it was possible for characters to amass 
> a great number of different skills, or high levels in a few skills, over 
> a small number of terms.  The balancing factor against this was that now 
> characters had to have higher levels of a certain skill to gain the same 
> advantages than they had to in CT and MT.  In order to gain the same 
> effect of a level 3 skill from CT or MT, one needed at least 5 or 6 in 
> the equivalent TNE skill.  The advantage was that, with a greater number 

   Yep, it also allows creative players the leeway to have skills that
contribute to the atmosphere of the character without playability becoming
a worrisome factor.

   The TNE version of anagathics also cures a problem I've had with CT and
the 2D6 range where very old characters can literally be the center of the
party and wear five hats, doing everything from piloting the ship to
patching the engines, to medicking the wounded. Not to mention,
shooting the turret lasers and repelling the boarders
single-handedly...(Yes I know you can limit the usefulness of this by
requiring crew at each crew for each "position", the point is these
characters are powerful beyond any credibility!)

> talents ("Wait!  You're not sick, you're just malingering!").  Of course, 
> it was still possible for a character to take too many terms during 
> character generation, or switch careers too many times, and come up with 
> someone who's just "too big" for the rest of the party, which led me to 
> impose some limits on what players could or couldn't do while rolling up 
> a new character.  Some things never change.

   Age helps a LOT, my crew generally doesn't like aging their characters
much beyond the age 33 borderline, plus some of my guys are tech-heads
that like the Hiver academy! <g>
 
> One of the things that I liked about the TNE skill and task resolution 
> system was that, provided you added up your assets (skills + controlling 
> attributes) ahead of time, figuring out required rolls was quite easy -- 

  That's one of the things I really liked as well, MT task resolution gave
me migraines sometimes.

> task attempt.  Naturally there are some things I'd change (such as 
> Strength being the major factor in marksmanship), but I feel that, when 
> compared to CT and MT, it offers the best balance of character detail, 
> task detail, and ease of use.
 
  I'm divided on this. Their rationale for strength with slug weapons
makes _some_ sense, but surely the benefits of strength are already paying
dividends in reducing recoil effects. I'd be comfortable with AGL as the
controlling attribute for _any_ ranged weapon.

> I'm not sure that I'll find arguments citing CT and MT as having simpler 
> task resolution systems very credible, but I agree that the TNE character 
> generation system can be a daunting obstacle to the new player.  What 
> skills are important?  Which backgrounds offer the best skills?  Those 
> are hard questions to answer for someone unfamiliar with the rules 
> system.  If the new character generation system is going to be closer to 

   This isn''t an issue with anybody a play with. In fact, CT is often
roundly criticized around here for not having a complicated ENOUGH system.
IMO, any system that doesn't have the range of options that TNE does
seriously limits the playability of the game in that the player may not be
able to create the kind of character he wants to play. I'm used to getting
requests on how to fit a particular character type into CT's rigid class
structure, and all I've talked to like the flexibility of TNE.

> Obviously, pre-generated characters are out.  Who wants to run someone 
> else's character?  However, you might try what other RPG systems refer to 
> as archetypes (I first ran into this while playing Mechwarrior).  One can 
> prioritize what they feel is most important for their character (such as 
> skills, starting equipment, or other advantages).  These choices will 
> lead to a list of what types of skills the character will have, and at 
> what levels.  A possible example:  I want a former military character 

   This is interesting. Are you thinking of the Shadowrun style priority
system? It's a good idea for an *optional* quick character generatuon
system. Say, allow players to choose between stats, skills, resources
(money, social, equipment), maybe even important contacts. This way
players just prioritize and select what stats/skills they want, with an
appropriate age assigned by the referee based on the type of character and
skill base.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Matt & Ellen McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 23:36:33 -0500
Subject: default skills

It seems to me that most people/characters will have a certain number of
default skills (6-10?) which will vary almost infinitely with background.

Why not define a NO BACKGROUND list and allow a player to pick a certain
number of background skills from the rest based on how he sees his 
character's history? A few simple rules regarding self-consistency, TL, and 
ref's discretion should be all that's necessary.

Matt McL

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest            Monday, 10 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 076

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Skills that should be roleplayed.
         2. Agents
         3. Re: Swimming
         4. Re: Skills
         5. Re: Help rqst fr travell to Vancouver
         6. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #63
         7. Re: Jet propulsion
         8. Re: Agents
         9. M-drives and J-drives
        10. Re: Jets
        11. Religion Skill
        12. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #59
        13. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #59
        14. Jonathan Clark
        15. design system: fundemental suggestion
        16. STR vs. AGL/DEX in Firearms
        17. Re: Skills
        18. Graphics

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 08:20:34 PDT
Subject: Re: Skills that should be roleplayed.

Charles Collin writes [snipped]
>
>To take another example, consider tactics.  You can't simply say "I
come 
>up with a brilliant battle plan.", you have to make up some sort of 
>strategy.  Your character takes care of the details of how to make
that 
>strategy work.  I as GM will judge (yes, subjectively, and yes based
on 
>my own limited knowledge) whether it's a good strategy or not.  If you

>come up with a great plan, but your character doesn't know the first 
>thing about tactics, he will bung it up in the details.  If you come
up 
>with a mediocre plan, but your character is a master tactician, he
will 
>"make it work".
>
I agree in principle that the tactics skill should be role played.
However, I also play as a PC in a Dark Conspiracy campaign. My
character is about as civilian as you can get: a 49 year old
laywer/mystic. I play with a group of young rhino-types that create
special forces characters. My personal background is well-grounded in
tactics. In the game I have to bite my tongue when the rhinos make
blunders.

In my own games of TNE, when the player is about to make a tactical
blunder, I have him make a tactics check. Success and I give him
insight. Catastrophic failure, I give him misdirection. Outstanding
success I give him an answer.

I feel that a multitude of skills allows the referee to assist the
players in the creation of their story. For this reason, I have no
limits on the number of skills that a character can *know*. I also
allow the players to propose new skills for addition to *my* universe.

Part of my attraction to Traveller was the multitude of skills with
which to define my character and his background. The rival system at
the time, D&D did not have a skill system. Characters could make and
did make up their backgrounds as they went along. Oh yeah, I passed my
Intelligence check, so I know all about Ancient History.

*Situations* should be role-played. Skills should be used to resolve
player actions from within the context of the situation.

enough said...by me anyway...

- --norm fenlason
kennesaw ga usa


------------------------------

From: Jamie Young <jamie@tsc.scotnet.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 13:26:57 +0100
Subject: Agents

Marc Miller wrote:

>The Agent Type:
>Secret Agent. Imperial Agent. Law Enforcement Agent. Insurance Agent?

Watch the classic film-noir "Double Indemnity" to see what adventures an
Insurance Agent can have!

Jamie


------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 08:47:05 PDT
Subject: Re: Swimming

Al Lowe writes [snipped]
>On Sun, 9 Jun 1996, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
>[snip]
>> So I'd recommend that swimming not be a default skill, but be given
>> automatically to everyone in the Army, Marines, and Scouts (and to
everyone
>> who goes through college -- I had to take a swimming test, along
with the
>
>I spent 4 years in the Army, and I STILL can't swim.  It was not a 
>requirement to learn how to swim, if you drive a tank.
>
Spent 14 years in the service, never was called on to swim. However, I
was completely qualified as a life guard at age 17. I think that this
is a background type skill. Players in the definition of their
character who don't expect to go into the water, don't need to take it.
Swimming is hard work if you do not know how to do it. Just watch Bay
Watch...

- --norm fenlason


------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 09:13:58 PDT
Subject: Re: Skills

Just a tidbit. The *high tech* Desert Storm Coalition with all the
satellites, drones, and TASMs still had a need for *ground truth*.
There were many *strategic reconnaisance* teams deployed across the
Iraqi country side. These SR units called in targets regularly for the
high tech TASMs, and optically guided air strikes. Simply put, what can
be seen from overhead, can be deceived on the ground. The periods of
orbits that satellites and drones can provide do not compare to the
several days that a SEAL team can provide to determine if that
baby-milk plant was really a chemical weapons facility. Or to tell the
striking forces which building in the facility was the actual
laboratory/production facility. Only observation over a period of days
could determine such a thing.

These kinds of operations require several skills. Survival,
concealment, FO, commo (to get the low-probability of intercept sat-com
working), stealth, the list goes on. These are real skills not the ones
we will use in T4.

By the way, what made CT Books 4 and 5 and later ones so popular? The
expansion of the skill list and the depth of character that the systems
provided? I wouldn't limit any skill lists at all. I would include
limits to the skills given the career selection that the player made. 

Maybe I am a wierd ref, but I make my players state their career
intentions before they go *shopping* for skills. If I detect that they
are shopping, I limit the time they are allowed to make their
decisions. They are usually sorry later. I intend this to be a part of
the RP process. Character development. If you want to play a series of
stats, you don't need to role play. I use the skills as a definition of
the character development, annotated after the career development has
been made.

- --norm fenlason


------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 10 Jun 96 09:27:52 EDT
Subject: Re: Help rqst fr travell to Vancouver

oh tee hee. i hadn't opened this til just now....

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 96 20:49:43 PST
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #63

"David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net> writes:

> At 04:14 am 6/9/96 PST, you wrote:
> >Getting back to Traveller, if the ship is in a position to give support
> >from orbit, it *won't* take any "10 minutes". Assuming nothing more
> 
>         Key phrase ... "in position" ... depending on the orbit, you could
> be minutes to hours away from being "in position" when the request comes in.

In which case, they wouldn't have routed the support request to you. :-)

Ortillery *does* tend to require either a *huge* number of ships, or
having ships that are using their drives to "hover" over the area of
battle. (and no, I doubt that they'd stay stationary. They'd probably
be jinking like mad!)

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 96 21:51:02 PST
Subject: Re: Jet propulsion

jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) writes:

> 
> => The Komet was much more dangerous to its pilots than the Allies, btw. 
> =>  I don't believe there were very many, if any incidents of the Allies 
> => actually shooting 1 down.  Reports of them exploding on takeoff or 
> => landing, were very common.  I believe they first saw combat in 
> => February or March, 1945.
> 
> I believe the pilot actually sat between the two volitile fule tank.  Makes y
> wonder how much the pilots actually knew of their aircraft (especially an
> aircraft who's landing gear stayed on the ground after takeoff).

Nope. The fuel was *behind* the pilot's seat. And you tried to make
*damn* sure that it was all gone before you landed. Being a
monopropellant, it had a tendency to explode if handled roughly.

The Komet used a built in belly skid for landing. The drop-off wheels
were for keeping the takeoff short and smooth.

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 10 Jun 96 09:35:48 EDT
Subject: Re: Agents

or 12 Monkeys....

------------------------------

From: gsw@aloft.att.com
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 09:49:39 -0400
Subject: M-drives and J-drives

Dave,

I hope you are taking my suggestion about maneuver drives (that
you must do something about the amount of kinetic/fusion/etc.
energy available as a planet-killing force) to heart.

I have a bit more to add about it. I know you like the idea of
using reaction mass, but the decision has been made to make
thrusters canon after TL12. Here's a way you can have your cake
and eat it, too:

 Use the "mass-nullifier" concept I proposed. This would allow
 non-reaction drives and would be incompatible with the old
 HEPlaR drives (which is good because one of those can really
 ruin your day at a spaceport/planet/etc.). These would very
 quickly become the drive of choice for non-military ships--
 they should be more economical as well.

 Now, military ships are likely to have a HEPlaR for backup if
 nothing else. If they find a way to combine it with the mass
 nullifier (e.g., large enough ships could leave their tail
 end out of the field), then they might have a maneuvering
 advantage over regular thrusters.

Note that I don't really care about the technology that is
used--I am trying to justify the Traveller universe, with
small-time ships flying into busy spaceports all the time.
I also don't care about what is aboard military ships, but
commercial ships must not all be potential planet-killers.

While we're on that topic, another piece of "canon" is the
fact that rifts without stars are a serious obstacle to
travel. In other words, deep-space jumps are either very
hard or are impossible. From an early-CT standpoint, they
were impossible. Future products stated their existence,
but I consider the organization of the universe to be the
true canon here. It is my opinion that you can reconcile
the apparent discrepancy by stating that gravity wells ARE
involved in jump dynamics. You cannot get too close to them
(the 100 diameter limit), but they are somehow used in the
jump (as a target reference, to help you enter normal space,
or whatever).

One way to justify deep space jumps/refueling stations is
to say that "dark matter" or other hard-to-find "stuff" in
interstellar space is used. Without this, deep-space jumps
are either impossible or at least risky due to targetting
difficulties (or require significantly more energy to get
into normal space, etc.).

(Sorry to have moved this discussion from X-boat to the
traveller list, but I'm sure any interested parties are on
both.)

- -- 
- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

From: Albert Lowe <sirdirk@xnet.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 09:29:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Jets

On Mon, 10 Jun 1996 normf@wegener.com wrote:

> Right. The Germans fielded a horrible (from a pilot's point of view)
> aircraft called the Comet. It was a rocket based airplane that gave no
> throttle control to the pilot. The pilot rode at the front of a lit
> rocket for about 30 minutes. When the rocket burned out, he glided
> home.

Actually, it was about 8 minutes, not 30.  And there was a throttle of 
sorts, the rocket engine could either be on, or off, that was about it.


+-----------------------------------------+
:Albert "Al" Lowe     sirdirk@xnet.com    :
:WEBPAGE at http://www.xnet.com/~sirdirk  :
: "I'd rather win nothing, than WIN95"    :
+-----------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 11:02:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Religion Skill

Hi all.  

	If you don't have a religion skill, what are you going to tell all
those people who are taking Religious Studies and Theology courses?  That
what they're learning is really just general knowledge (based on INT/EDU),
or that they should be in the History or Sociology departments?  Theology,
like many other skills in Traveller, is an area of knowledge.  One's faith
does not necessarily come into it.  One does not really gain any skills
from being a member of a certain faith (at least no more than one gets
from being part of a certain culture, and we can't have a skill for each
one of those).  But one does gain special and extensive knowledge from
studying Theology, which is an area of research much like sociology,
history and anthropology, but which has its own domain. 

	A preist might have skills like Orate, Liaison and so on, but
these are not "Theology".  Theology is an area of study with its own
particular emphasis.  It is not history, nor anthroplogy, but a field on
its own.  One can debate the "usefulness" of this skill, but one can do so
with many others.  I think Theology definately has a place in Traveller. 

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 11:34:31 -0400
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #59

At 02:31 AM 6/9/96 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de> writes:
>
>> >Archery*
>> 
>> The use of archaic missle or throwing weapons a default skill? I don't think 
>
>Remember, "default" means that players have skill level 0 in the skill.
>In other words, they are allowed to *try* to use the skill. If archery
>wasn't a "default" skill, then your character wouldn't be able to
>figure out how to use a bow and arrow unless he'd specifically *chosen*
>that skill.

Actually, default means that you can try a skill with out a -3 penalty.
There are many skills that are subject to defaulting.  I think most people
who have watched TV can pick up a bow and arrow and have a reasonable chance
of not killing a friendly and launching it somewhat toward their target.  I
don't think it should be a default more for the reason that if you default
it, you have to default a boatload of other skills, then all of a sudden,
your character sheet is real messy.  

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 17:03:30 +0100
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #59

Rob Miracle writes:
> Actually, default means that you can try a skill with out a -3 penalty.
> There are many skills that are subject to defaulting.  I think most people
> who have watched TV can pick up a bow and arrow and have a reasonable chance
> of not killing a friendly and launching it somewhat toward their target.

Since nobody else has yet replied to this, I feel I'd better:

Even if someone can pick up a bow, and fire it in the general
direction of the target thier chances of hitting it without prior
training is going to be virtually nil, even after practising with it
for a while.  If my memory serves me correctly I've heard the figure
of twenty years of training in the longbow as being not a bad starting
point for an archer.  If you're wondering at this point how the
English fielded so many longbowmen, training with your longbow on a
Sunday used to be required by law (only repealed early this century),
for every man and boy.

Archery should not be a default skill.

			Chris.


------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 12:27:46 -0400
Subject: Jonathan Clark

Sorry for the wasted bandwidth...

...Jonathan Clark, you put some bids in on my Traveller sale--but your mail
keeps bouncing as a "unknown". Please contact me to confirm your address!

Thanks.

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)

(And for the rest of the list...if anybody is interested in a copy of my
Traveller Sale/Auction, please e-mail me for a complete list!)



------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 09:35:27 -0700
Subject: design system: fundemental suggestion

I know now is not the time to make radical suggestions, but...I have a few
anyway, for simplifying the system

They aren't fundemental - they're the sort of thing that can be added
to later drafts, I think:

(1) Calculate all volumens in the classic displacement ton, not m3; round to
nearest m3 (which may result in some components, like controls, having
zero volume.) Rationale: fewer fractions for people to deal with, smaller
and less intimidating numbers, saves converting back and forth from
disp-tons

(2) Ignore power requirements for all devices taking less than 0.1 MW (for
starships, not vehicles, obviously.) Again, saves lots of addition

(3)(4)(5) and (6) all go together and are more controversial:

(3) Ignore mass
(4) Ignore surface area
(5) Limit starships to a certain maximum armor value as a function of hull size
(6) Limit number of weapons and sensors as a function of hull size

These would *really* simplify the system. If we set the limits conservatively
enough (the classic one turret per 100 Tons leaps to mind, for example),
the *results* will never be different from FFS - ships will always be lighter
than the Slop Rule, and always have unused surface area. FFS-lite designs will
also always be much less optimal than full FFS designs, but that's life - 
high-end warships will probably need full FFS no matter what. 

Opinions? This might satisfy the (few) people who want HG-level design while
maitaining upward compatibility with FFS. We could still include the mass and
surface numbers in the tables, but make calculating them optional for people
who obey a maximum weapons armor rule, as a compromise...

cc'd to the TML because that's where the non-gearheads, who might like this
best, hang out.

Bruce Macintosh
bmac@astro.ucla.edu

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 09:45:01 -0700
Subject: STR vs. AGL/DEX in Firearms

At 08:00 AM 6/10/96 -0400, Larry Hadley wrote:

>On Sun, 9 Jun 1996, Wes Payne wrote:

>> task attempt.  Naturally there are some things I'd change (such as 
>> Strength being the major factor in marksmanship), but I feel that, when 
>> compared to CT and MT, it offers the best balance of character detail, 
>> task detail, and ease of use.
> 
>  I'm divided on this. Their rationale for strength with slug weapons
>makes _some_ sense, but surely the benefits of strength are already paying
>dividends in reducing recoil effects. I'd be comfortable with AGL as the
>controlling attribute for _any_ ranged weapon.

The problem here is that firing a weapon is more a case of controling the
damn thing, than aiming it.  Basic Rifle Marksmanship stresses using
supported firing positions, keeping a tight lock on the weapon, and only the
most basic of aiming procedures.

I don't know how many on the list have fired a modern assult rifle, but they
are ridiculously easy to use.  For most, a simple "ring and post sight" is
used, and with experience and training, you find yourself ignoring even that
basic aid.  Most soldiers I served with could make snapshots by simply
aiming down the barrel.. if it seemed in line, they took the shot.

Let me admit it:  I am a klutz.  My Traveller character would have a DEX of
about 5, but I qualified Expert on the M-16A1, and later on the M-21.

For lasers, on the other hand, using AGL/DEX makes more sense.  This is a
"finesse" weapon, where reaction speed and steadyness of the hand are important.





# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 10:48:41 -0600
Subject: Re: Skills

At 09:13 am 6/10/96 PDT, you wrote:

>Maybe I am a wierd ref, but I make my players state their career
>intentions before they go *shopping* for skills. If I detect that they
>are shopping, I limit the time they are allowed to make their
>decisions. They are usually sorry later. I intend this to be a part of
>the RP process. Character development. If you want to play a series of
>stats, you don't need to role play. I use the skills as a definition of
>the character development, annotated after the career development has
>been made.

        One of my refs, in a (vaguely) Traveller-derived game, didn't use
"character generation" at all -- he gave you a number of points, you decided
with him what background you wanted, then used the points to buy skills that
matched that background. With some slop for outside interests, hobbies, etc.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 10:10:52 -0700
Subject: Graphics

        Morning all.

I've got a number of questions and requests to ask of the general public out
there.  I'm going to be taking over the TNE section of Dave Golden's page
and I was wondering if any of you with scanners would be so good as to send
me a number of graphic images.

1)  The Regency Insignia

2)  The Guild Insignia

3)  The Wild's Insignia found in the Reform Coalition Equipment book

4)  The Empire of Solee's Insignia (Personalities of the RC)

and finally

5)  A Map of all of Imperial Space.  Not one that show's stars just one of
the one pagers early on in the TNE manual that shows all the sectors and
subsectors.

Thanks to anyone who can help me on this.

There's another question that's again TNE related that I'm dying to ask and
I realize that this kind of buggers up the T4 discussion train but here goes
anyways.

GDW, we all remember them don't we, was going to put out a suplement
entitled "Worlds of the Coalition".  It was to be a basic player's
supplement with enthnographic information reguarding each of the worlds that
comprises the Reform Coalition.  Does Imperium Games, specifically T4 have
any plans to resurect this supplement?

And can anyone give me more, canon, knowledge on "Spires."  Here's the
debait my GM and I are having, hell its more like a heated argument.  He
feels that the Spiri were abandoned on Spires during the Long Night and that
their technology degraded to it's current level, TL2.  I on the other hand
bleive that the Spiri were transplanted there by the Ancients and have since
developed on their own.  This whole argument is based on a single line in
"Path of Tears."  The line reads "Lacking fossil fuels or significant
surface deposits of useful metals, technological development stalled fairly
early, but philosophy and the arts flourished."  Now my whole argument is
premised on the words, "STALLED FAIRLY EARLY," as the line does not read,
"REGRESSED TO A LOWER TECH LEVEL" or some such thing I take it to mean Spiri
culture developed insitu and they would have their own unique language and
social customs.  Rather than just a diivergent form of our own western culture.

Thoughts, Comments, Flames and Tac Nukes?

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #76
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Traveller-digest            Monday, 10 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 077

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: STR vs. AGL/DEX in Firearms
         2. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #63
         3. High Roleplaying
         4. High Roleplaying
         5. Int + Edu - knickers
         6. Cascade skills
         7. Int + Edu - knickers
         8. Re: Jet propulsion
         9. Re: Cascade skills
        10. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #63
        11. Re: Cascade skills
        12. Re: Jet propulsion
        13. J-drives & M-Drives
        14. Chuck's Skill List, Mark III (LONG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 13:36:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: STR vs. AGL/DEX in Firearms

On Mon, 10 Jun 1996, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 08:00 AM 6/10/96 -0400, Larry Hadley wrote:
> 
> >  I'm divided on this. Their rationale for strength with slug weapons
> >makes _some_ sense, but surely the benefits of strength are already paying
> >dividends in reducing recoil effects. I'd be comfortable with AGL as the
> >controlling attribute for _any_ ranged weapon.
> 
> The problem here is that firing a weapon is more a case of controling the
> damn thing, than aiming it.  Basic Rifle Marksmanship stresses using
> supported firing positions, keeping a tight lock on the weapon, and only the
> most basic of aiming procedures.

  Yes, but isn't that what your strength is doing in reducing recoil 
penalties? My view is that this is paying you twice for the same 
attribute, when using this skill.

> For lasers, on the other hand, using AGL/DEX makes more sense.  This is a
> "finesse" weapon, where reaction speed and steadyness of the hand are important.

  True, but again we could make the same arguments you make regarding 
assault rifles "ridiculously easy to use". If you talking single-pulse 
lasers I would agree, beam lasers or auto-pulsing lasers would make them 
trivially easy to use.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 10:39:00 -0800
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #63

On  9 Jun 96 at 20:49, Leonard Erickson spewed:

> Ortillery *does* tend to require either a *huge* number of ships, or
> having ships that are using their drives to "hover" over the area of
> battle. (and no, I doubt that they'd stay stationary. They'd probably
> be jinking like mad!)

1 other thought on "Ortillery."  As somebody else said, what can be 
observed from the air can be faked from the ground.  Especially, when 
you consider that vehicles can be EMM Masked, and Battle Dress after 
a certain level will not leave a heat signature for IR to trace...  I 
think that there will always be a need for men on the ground to spot 
some targets.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 10 Jun 96 15:08:44 EDT
Subject: High Roleplaying

>> Jonas Karlsson

Counterexample of the use of a social/interactive skill during a traveller
gaming session: (etc) <<

Hi Jonas!

This works well if your players are, in fact, good roleplayers. However, there
are cases where players enjoy playing the game, enjoy "being there" and
interacting with the environment of the Imperium, but never really develop
differing character personalities.

It's not a disaster; the games I run are enjoyed by players and GM alike (ie
they're now threatening to hang me from my nunchuku unless I restart the game
_now_!). But high RP of the type you describe just doesn't happen. Our guys
aren't natural actors - but they love gaming.

This is where skills like Liaison and Persuasion and Trader and so on come in.
If a player weaves a skilled, well roleplayed depiction of the things his
character says and does to persuade someone or something, I'll perhaps just
check he _has_ the appropriate skill - and then adjudicate the results on the
value of the RPing. (Which is largely how Gensalorn works, as you know!). But if
the character is known to be articulate, persuasive and diplomatic and my dear
old tactless buddy Allan is playing it, the skills are there as a safety net to
maintain the consistency of the character.

They're also useful in the rare cases where someone is playing a stated bonehead
marine or thug pirate who has markedly _less_ social skills than the player can
depict - or if the character is struggling with a foreign language. The player
waxes lyrical about the effects they want, and the skill roll decides what
proportion of this actually transpires.

Just Cr.02

Best

HWF aka WD.


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 10 Jun 96 15:08:49 EDT
Subject: High Roleplaying

>> Jonas Karlsson

Counterexample of the use of a social/interactive skill during a traveller
gaming session: (etc) <<

Hi Jonas!

This works well if your players are, in fact, good roleplayers. However, there
are cases where players enjoy playing the game, enjoy "being there" and
interacting with the environment of the Imperium, but never really develop
differing character personalities.

It's not a disaster; the games I run are enjoyed by players and GM alike (ie
they're now threatening to hang me from my nunchuku unless I restart the game
_now_!). But high RP of the type you describe just doesn't happen. Our guys
aren't natural actors - but they love gaming.

This is where skills like Liaison and Persuasion and Trader and so on come in.
If a player weaves a skilled, well roleplayed depiction of the things his
character says and does to persuade someone or something, I'll perhaps just
check he _has_ the appropriate skill - and then adjudicate the results on the
value of the RPing. (Which is largely how Gensalorn works, as you know!). But if
the character is known to be articulate, persuasive and diplomatic and my dear
old tactless buddy Allan is playing it, the skills are there as a safety net to
maintain the consistency of the character.

They're also useful in the rare cases where someone is playing a stated bonehead
marine or thug pirate who has markedly _less_ social skills than the player can
depict - or if the character is struggling with a foreign language. The player
waxes lyrical about the effects they want, and the skill roll decides what
proportion of this actually transpires.

Just Cr.02

Best

HWF aka WD.


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 10 Jun 96 15:08:46 EDT
Subject: Int + Edu - knickers

The Int + Edu skill limit was complete rubbish! All right, hands up those who've
ever designed themselves as a Traveller character? Uh-hu, most of us! I did
this, being (I hope) not too egotistical with skill levels, and if Int and Edu
limit my skills I'm Deep Thought incarnate! Little things like Wheeled-1 and
Ski-3 and so on, matched with my primary skill of Computer, bust it wide open -
and I've never _been_ in the Services! Got chucked out of the Scouts (Boy, that
is).

Perhaps (Int + Edu) x4 or x5...


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 10 Jun 96 15:08:54 EDT
Subject: Cascade skills

>Cascade Skills. A cascade skill allows the character to choose from a list >and
receives level 1 in that skill; He also gets level (1/2) in all others >within
the cascade.

Um. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of "related" skills being able to stand
in for each other. Just - how _do_ you roll a task on a skill of 0.5 ?


------------------------------

From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 10 Jun 96 15:08:52 EDT
Subject: Int + Edu - knickers

The Int + Edu skill limit was complete rubbish! All right, hands up those who've
ever designed themselves as a Traveller character? Uh-hu, most of us! I did
this, being (I hope) not too egotistical with skill levels, and if Int and Edu
limit my skills I'm Deep Thought incarnate! Little things like Wheeled-1 and
Ski-3 and so on, matched with my primary skill of Computer, bust it wide open -
and I've never _been_ in the Services! Got chucked out of the Scouts (Boy, that
is).

Perhaps (Int + Edu) x4 or x5...


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 20:01:36 GMT
Subject: Re: Jet propulsion

=> The Komet used a built in belly skid for landing. The drop-off wheels
=> were for keeping the takeoff short and smooth.

It still makes me wonder, though, if all of those Me 163 pilots REALLY knew the
dangers of their aircraft.  Germany was at war and had little time for training
and/or safety considerations.  But desperate times call for desperate measures.
I keep thinking that maybe at least *one* of those pilots gave a double-take
after take-off when he saw his undercarrage roll past him on the ground!  Kind
of the look you make when you realize you've been passed by your own hubcaps (or
worse!) on the freeway  8-)

------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 16:28:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Cascade skills

On 10 Jun 1996, Hugh Foster wrote:

> 
> >Cascade Skills. A cascade skill allows the character to choose from a list >and
> receives level 1 in that skill; He also gets level (1/2) in all others >within
> the cascade.
> 
> Um. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of "related" skills being able to stand
> in for each other. Just - how _do_ you roll a task on a skill of 0.5 ?
> 

It is rounded down to the nearest whole number, in this case 0.  A primary
cascaed skill of 4 would yield an effective skill of 2 in related (sub)
skills, so would a 5.  

> 

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 13:29:54 -0700
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #63

At 10:39 AM 6/10/96 -0800, you wrote:
>On  9 Jun 96 at 20:49, Leonard Erickson spewed:
>
>> Ortillery *does* tend to require either a *huge* number of ships, or
>> having ships that are using their drives to "hover" over the area of
>> battle. (and no, I doubt that they'd stay stationary. They'd probably
>> be jinking like mad!)
>
>1 other thought on "Ortillery."  As somebody else said, what can be 
>observed from the air can be faked from the ground.  Especially, when 
>you consider that vehicles can be EMM Masked, and Battle Dress after 
>a certain level will not leave a heat signature for IR to trace...  I 
>think that there will always be a need for men on the ground to spot 
>some targets.

Not to mention the fact that people build plywood replica's of things to
fool aerial recon.  The Nazi's did it with whole factories, the Iraqi's did
it with inflatable tanks.  

One of a defender's greatest advantages is being able to create more targets
than an attacker can properly deal with in an attempt to increase the
survival ratio of his limited equipment.

You need that man/woman there on the ground to confirm your sensor readings.
Don't forget there's likely to be some kind of atmospheric distortion
involved too.

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 13:37:38 -0700
Subject: Re: Cascade skills

At 03:08 PM 6/10/96 EDT, you wrote:
>
>>Cascade Skills. A cascade skill allows the character to choose from a list
>and
>receives level 1 in that skill; He also gets level (1/2) in all others >within
>the cascade.
>
>Um. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of "related" skills being able to stand
>in for each other. Just - how _do_ you roll a task on a skill of 0.5 ?

You don't actually.  What's being refered to here is the GDW house rules
system.  Where a character, for ease of calculation.  Picks up 4 levels in
Slug Rifle.  With his strength of 8 that gives him a Slug Rifle of 12,
modified according to difficulty of course.  Because the character has 4
levels in Slug Rifle he automatically picks up Slug Pistol at 2 giving him a
Slug Pistol skill of 10.

If the numbers are not even, i.e. 1,3,5 etc.  round down (hey it's a cruel
universe).  This gives the character a skill of 0,1,2 you can do the math.

Actually it's a very good system for figuring out tasks because not only are
they tied into your skill but also your governing attributes.  Some people
are just naturally better at some thing's than the rest of us are.

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 13:41:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Jet propulsion

At 08:01 PM 6/10/96 GMT, you wrote:
>=> The Komet used a built in belly skid for landing. The drop-off wheels
>=> were for keeping the takeoff short and smooth.
>
>It still makes me wonder, though, if all of those Me 163 pilots REALLY knew the
>dangers of their aircraft.  Germany was at war and had little time for training
>and/or safety considerations.  But desperate times call for desperate measures.
>I keep thinking that maybe at least *one* of those pilots gave a double-take
>after take-off when he saw his undercarrage roll past him on the ground!  Kind
>of the look you make when you realize you've been passed by your own
hubcaps (or
>worse!) on the freeway  8-)

Kinda adds new meaning to the phase "Express Elevator to Hell."

Trivia fact.  The Komet was test flown by a woman.  Can't remember her name
though, they found it rather difficult to get male volountiers to test fly
the thing.  This was all of the original test flights, not just one.

D.S.


------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 16:00:10 -0600
Subject: J-drives & M-Drives

On 06/10/96 at 09:49 AM,  gsw@aloft.att.com said:

>While we're on that topic, another piece of "canon" is the fact that
>rifts without stars are a serious obstacle to travel. In other words,
>deep-space jumps are either very hard or are impossible. From an
>early-CT standpoint, they were impossible. 

That was my understanding.  Much later people started talking about
jumping into empty space...I didn't do it like that, so I sort of
ignored it.

>It is my opinion that you can reconcile the apparent discrepancy
>by stating that gravity wells ARE involved in jump dynamics.  You
>cannot get too close to them (the 100 diameter limit), but they
>are somehow used in the jump (as a target reference, to help you
>enter normal space, or whatever).

I agree, but I handle things a little differently.  Ships can Jump out
from empty space, in fact they can't jump until they get the ship well
over 200 stellar diameters out (about 2AU for a G2V star).  On the
other end, they Jump in very close to a star, or other very large
gravity source, (a gas giant won't do)!  Ships could jump from "empty
space" if they could get there, but they can't jump to get to empty
space.

This means that ships must travel from close the the star across the
inner system before they can jump out again.  If they are running from
pursuers, they will have to outrun them across the system before
jumping out.  If they are in a frontier system, they could be hit by
pirates during a period of many hours. If they are low on fuel, they
will make for inner planets (more likely to be inhabited) rather than
for the big gas tanks..I mean giants.

It means that misjumps will always put a ship near a star, brown
dwarf, or black hole.  The player's, now lost and out of fuel, may not
know where they are, but they are somewhere more
interesting than deep space...and with at least a prayer of surviving. 


It means that invading forces can't jump right to the gas giant, OR to
the planet they want to attack.  They come in close to the star and
fight their way out to the planet...or past it to the outer system
where they can jump out.

Lastly, the only way this works is to have an MDrive that can get a
ship from .1AU to 1AU in less than a day, and then out to 2AU for the
jump.  If ship's can build up those kinds of velocities, then you have
planet killers..in spades!  

So you have to find a way to put a speed limit on MDrives.  I have
come up with several ways to do that over the years:  

1.  Interaction between Tplates and velocity. The faster you go the
more energy it takes to go faster...a constant power in will result in
acceleration decreasing toward a maximum limit (no physical
rationalization).

2.  Stutterjump (or stutterwarp).  Your ship makes millions of
microjumps/second, each of less than a cm. They can't get
pseudoveolocities greater than a small fraction of c, but they can get
across a system nice and fast. Because the ship is jumping it doesn't
really build up an actual velocity to whack a planet. The microjump
also doesn't work within a diameter of a star/planet. So you need AG
or rockets to land or launch.

3.  Hyperdrive.  Different from jump drive/space, and could someday
provide an alterative FTL drive, but today only allows ships to travel
at a few percent of c.  Hyperspace, unlike normal space induces a drag
on objects, so you have to continuously apply thrust to maintain
velocity, and there *are* limits on actual velocity.  Ships use a
hyperspace "screw" where mass is swirled through a turning screw
extending into the hyperspace medium.  There the mass is accelerated
to speeds of several thousand c, propelling the ship forward.  The
mass looses coherence and emerges from hyperspace a few meters behind
the ship as a diffuse swarm of recombining quarks..visible as a
swirling bluewhite glow.



Eris
- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch) using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 17:20:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Chuck's Skill List, Mark III (LONG)

	Hi all.  Sorry if this topic bores some of you, but it fascinates 
me.  I think it is very important for an RPG to have a proper skills 
list.  For those of you who are less interested, I've tried to minimize 
the length of this message.  I'd consider moving this to the GDW-Beta 
list, except that I think it would get lost in the FF&S flood.  For those 
of you who are interested and wish to give me a point-by-point or 
otherwise lengthy reply, please respond to me directly so others don't 
have to pore through the long messages.  If you made a suggestion before 
and isn't implemented here, it doesn't necessarily mean I disagree with 
you, it may mean I simply forgot, so suggest it again if you think it's 
important.

	Below is "Mark III" of my skill list.  Again revised based on 
comments by various people.  Main points include:

o	The social sciences have been included in the form of Economics 
	and Political Science skills.
o	Geology is still included, but is now called Planetology to make 
	it more "universal".
o	Theology is still included as an area of study.  I consider this 
	to be nothing more controversial than the inclusion of sociology or 
	anthropology, and (IMO) it is not replaceable by any other social
	science as it is a discipline all its own.
o	The "Scholar" vs. "Science" distinction has been eliminated.  Not 
	sure how it would be implemented in the game anyway...
o	Weapon skills have been re-organized in line with several comments.

o	Default skills have been eliminated for the time being.  I now 
realize that default skills are a product of one's profession, culture 
and homeworld characteristics.  Instead of trying to take all this into 
account in a skills table, I feel default skills should be part of 
"background packages" or lists of automatic skills given based on career 
choice (e.g., Army characters get Rifle-0, Navy get Vacc-0).  I've heard 
that such background packages will be part of MMT, and automatic skill 
have always been part of it, so I think this would be a better way to 
handle things.

o	Cascade skills have been revised.  I have not cascaded all the 
skills that I feel should be subdivided.  This is for two reasons: 1) It 
makes for too many skills, 2) It makes skills less likely to be useful.  
For instance, a character is not likely to be able to use his "Farming" 
skill often in adventuring.  This becomes even more unlikely if one 
subdivides it (even though there are good arguments for doing so in terms 
of realism).


SKILLS BY TECH LEVEL:  I think skills should be understood to be mediated 
by the character's native TL.  Someone from a TL-5 world might have 
mechanic skill, but he won't be able to repair starship turrets (At least 
not  easily.  I'd say give a -DM equal to the TL difference).  
Differences in tech level which are too great should preclude any attempt 
at using the skill, at the GM's discretion.

SKILLS BY CULTURE/SPECIES:  Skills should also be mediated by the culture 
in which they are learned.  Someone learning medicine in the Sylean 
Federation will not likely be able to use their skills as effectively on 
other species.  Negative DMs would be given for alien surroundings (the 
more alien, the worse the DM).


SKILL GROUPINGS:  Skills are again divided into categories simply for 
organization.  The following sub-groupings are also used:
	(C) Cascade: represents a package of specializations in a 
particular field.  Pick one of them and all others are at 1/2 level.
	(G) Group:  represents a group of related skills.  Pick one of 
them but get level-nil in all others (or level-0 at GM's discretion). 
Sometimes, the group will contain cascade skills.
	(RPG) Roleplay it Gomer!:  This notation is a reminder that this 
skill should not replace roleplaying, but add to or enhance it.  Of 
course, this sort of applies to all of them :-).


***WEAPON SKILLS*************************

Archaic Ranged Weapons (G)
	Bow
	Crossbow
	Sling
	Spear Thrower [was Atlatl]	

Artillery 
Gunnery
Heavy Weapons (C): Grenade Launcher, Mortar, Braced Gun, 
Shoulder Rocket.
[Any cascades missing here?  I ain't no military type, so please fill me in.]

Melee Weapons (G)
	Axe (C)		: hatchet, axe.
	Blade (C)	: short blade, long blade, two-handed blade.
	Club (C)	: short club, long club 
	[includes hammers and maces].	
	Flail (C)	: light [chain/whip], heavy [flail, morning star].
	Polearm (C)	: light [staff, spear], heavy [pikes, halberds]
[And don't forget: glaive-guisarmes, bec-de-corbins, lucern 
hammers...AAARGH! :-)].

Ranged Weapons (G)
	Energy Weapons 		: [no cascade?  or fusion vs. plasma?]
	Laser Weapons (C)	: pistol, rifle.
	Slug Weapons (C)	: pistol, rifle, SMG, shotgun, autorifle. 	
	Sonic Weapons (C)	: pistol, rifle.
	[Carbine fits under rifle, IMO.]	

Thrown Weapons (C)		: Spear, Rock, Grenade, Short Blade, Boomerang.
[This list of cascades covers all the basic throwing techniques, I think.]

Unarmed Combat
[Still not sure I want seperate martial arts and brawling skills.]


***MILITARY SKILLS*************************

Battledress				
Camouflage
Combat Engineer 			
Demolitions

Environment Combat (G):  
	Low gravity 
	High gravity
	Urban 
	Jungle 
	Forest 
	Desert
	etc.
	[Players can choose any "terrain" they like].

Forward Observer			
Leadership (RPG)
Recruiting 
Tactics (C) (RPG)	: Space, Fleet, Naval (wet), Air, Ground.
[Any missing here?]


***ACADEMIC SKILLS***********************
[All of these are (RPG)]

Instruction				Research
Archeology				Astrography
Astronomy 				Biology 
Botany					Chemistry
Economics				History
Linguistics				Philosophy
Physics					Planetology
Political Science			Psioncology
Psychology				Sophontology
Theology				Zoology

	Notes:
	[IMO Research more-or-less covers Library Science.  Everyone 
who's in a field feels that the field should be further subdivided.  I 
has psych as two skill because of this.  It is now just one.]
	[In an interstellar community, Biology is indistinguishable from 
Xenobiology, IMHO.  Just as we study biology over the entire world (and 
not just our own city/country), far future biologists would study biology 
in other ecospheres.  For some lo-tech NPC's this skill would be mediated 
by TL and culture, as noted in the intro above.]
	[Astronomy is the science of stellar processes and physics.  
Astrography is like geography, but applies to interstellar nations and 
cultures.]


***CRIMINAL/POLICE SKILLS******************
[Note: Fast Talk and Intimidation have been placed under Persuasion in 
Other Skills.]

Blackmarketeer (RPG)		Bribery (RPG)
Disguise			Forensics
Forgery				Gambling (RPG)
Interrogation (RPG)		Intrusion
Investigation (RPG)		Pickpocket
Stealth				Streetwise (RPG)


***TECHNICAL SKILLS*********************

Communications
Computer (C)	: Programming, Repair, Cracking, Applications.

Craftsman (G)
	Armorer	: weapons and armor repair/maintenance.
	Carpenter	:
	Smith		:
	Machinist	: machine parts fabrication.
	[Players may create other members of this group.]

Designer (G)
	Spacecraft	:
	Architectural	:
	Computer	:
	Vehicular	:
	[Players may create other members of this group.]

Electronics 
Engineer  
[This refers to running/ repairing starships as opposed to designing them.]
Farming  
[Realistically, should have cascades, but will be little used as is, IMHO.]
Gravitics
Mechanics

Navigation 
	[Refers to spacecraft in jump space. Pilot covers navigation in real 
space. Orienteering covers navigation on planet surfaces.]

Pilot 
	[Refers to spacecraft (of any size) maneuvering/navigating in real
space.  Ship's boat is eliminated and/or covered by Grav Craft]

Prospecting
Robotics
Sensor Operations

Vehicle (G) 
	Aircraft (G)		: Jet, Prop, Helicopter, Lighter-Than-Air.
	Animal (C)		: Choose an animal.  
	[All others at 1/2 skill, so this isn't over-specialized, IMO]
	Grav Vehicle (C)	: GravBelt, GravCycle, Air-raft, 
				  GravTank, Spacecraft.
	[Spacecraft refers to any ship (big or small) when using antigrav.]
	-Ground Vehicle (C)	: GroundCycle, GroundCar, Tank.
	-Hovercraft (C)		: HoverCycle, HoverCar, HoverTank.
	-Vacc Suit
	-Watercraft (C)		: Powered, Sailboat.

[Someone suggested Single Engine vs. Multi-Engine for Aircraft.  Are you 
sure this is not simply a consequence of how we train people on earth?  
For instance, no one learns to fly a copter on earth without learning to 
fly a plane first, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen elsewhere. 
Just wondering...]


***PROFESSIONAL SKILLS********************

Administration			Animal Care
Bargain (RPG)			Broker 
Diplomacy (RPG)			Law
Medicine			Politics  
Steward				Trader

[Politics refers to the ability to deal in favors and (dis)information, 
campaigning, wheeling/dealing, etc.]

Performance (G)
	Art
	Dance
	Drama
	Music 
	Writing
	[Players can also make up their own member of this group.]


***OTHER SKILLS**************************

Athletics (G)
	Running		
	Swimming
	Climbing/Moutaineering
	Sport (G)(Choose one).

Carousing (RPG)	
Jack-of-all-Trades
Language (G)(Choose one)
Orienteering			
Perception
Persuasion (C) (RPG)	: Oration, Intimidation, Fast Talk, Conversation.
Reconnaissance
Survey 		
Survival(C)		: Desert, Ocean, Vaccuum Plain, etc.  (choose an 
environment). 

I have not included Skill Clusters such as those used in MT (e.g., the 
Space Cluster has Pilot, Nav, Engineer, Gunner, etc.).  I felt these were 
sort of redundant for the purposes of a skill list, though I would like 
to see them in CharGen for MMT.

That's it.  Once again, apologies to the uninterested.  As always, I 
welcome all inputs.

Happy Travelling,
Charles.




<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #77
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 11 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 078

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Int + Edu - knickers
         2. Skill Specialization
         3. Re: Jets
         4. First Aid vs. Medical.
         5. web pages for PBeM
         6. Aircraft: Single vs. Multiple Engine.
         7. Leonard's Observatory-net idea
         8. Re: Aircraft: Single vs. Multiple Engine.
         9. Apology
        10. Re: design system: fundemental suggestion
        11. Re: Skill Specialization
        12. Re: Komet
        13. Re: Komet
        14. Re: Jets
        15. Scholarship vs. Science
        16. Re: stuff in general
        17. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #73

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 10 Jun 1996 18:27:04 GMT
Subject: Re: Int + Edu - knickers

>The Int + Edu skill limit was complete rubbish! All right, hands up those
who've
>ever designed themselves as a Traveller character? Uh-hu, most of us! I did
>this, being (I hope) not too egotistical with skill levels, and if Int and
Edu
>limit my skills I'm Deep Thought incarnate! Little things like Wheeled-1 and
>Ski-3 and so on, matched with my primary skill of Computer, bust it wide
open -
>and I've never _been_ in the Services! Got chucked out of the Scouts (Boy,
that
>is).

Actually, I managed OK as a Traveller character, once I remembered that
Medical-3 means that I'm a doctor.  Thus, your Ski-3 means that you are as
good as a professional skier, Wheeled Vehicle-1 gives you better-than-average
driving (like 90% of people believe they are)...

Now, this no longer holds if you weaken the significane of skill levels.

------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 10 Jun 1996 18:38:28 GMT
Subject: Skill Specialization

One of the things I've noticed is that people seem to be advocating increased
skill specialization/differentiation in areas that they know a lot about.  As
a slightly tongue-in-cheek example, I would split Pedagogy into several
cascades: Instruction (transferring information), Evaluation (determining
level of knowledge), Curriculum (planning complete instructional program)...

All of these choices sound logical, and after all as a society we trust
experts, but...

Adventurers must be _generalists_, because they will have to adapt to
different situations, equipment, and so on!

I would prefer to see fewer, broader skills with the explicit understanding
that this breadth is deliberate.  If a player chose to specialize, I would
award them bonuses within their speciality and penalties outside it.

I think a reasonable compromise is to use the full-level-for-one,
half-for-others style used in TNE and Space 1889.  The assumption is that the
character concentrated on one area,but didn't neglect others within the
field.

------------------------------

From: David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 10 Jun 96 18:55:40 EDT
Subject: Re: Jets

>> Being a monopropellant, it had a tendency to explode if handled roughly. <<

No, the Komet had a bi-propellant engine, T-Stoff and C-Stoff, one of which is
hydrogen peroxide. Explosions were a problem, but more the fault of hard
landings rupturing the tanks, and even if it didn't blow the hydrogen peroxide
was concentrated enough to _dissolve_ the pilot.

And yes, they pretty much knew what they were getting into.....

                                David


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 20:08:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: First Aid vs. Medical.

Okay.  You've convinced me.  In the next skill list, I'll make First Aid 
and Medical separate.  I think we're getting a little too involved when 
we start cascading farming into three or four subdivisions, though.

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 20:08:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: web pages for PBeM

I am keeping some web pages for my recently started PBeM campaign.  For
those of you who are really really bored, point your browsers to:

http://www.lm.com/~tellis/traveller/

Or not.


Apologies to the disinterested.


Tom Ellis


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 20:18:11 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Aircraft: Single vs. Multiple Engine.

Hi all.  Does anyone object to using this single engine vs. multiple
engine cascade idea instead of jet vs. prop?  If not, I'll include it in
my next skill list update. 

Charles



------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:56:19 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Leonard's Observatory-net idea

>From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
>Date: Sun, 09 Jun 96 03:40:48 PST
>Subject: System info in T4
[snip
>Set up *several* observatories one parsec apart, plus some farther
>apart for the future. Use a *big* precisely pointed laser at each end
>to send atomic clock signals to the other observatory. This will
>(eventually) give you the *exact* distance between the observatories.
[snip]
>Meanwhile, you shoot pictures of the full sphere to a reasonable
>precision and scan them into the computers. As time goes on, you
>increase the precision. 
[snip]
>I'd expect that powerful radio transmitters would broadcast the time
>signals omni-directionally as well. Eventually, this would give precise
>distances for nearby systems. I'd say that such "benchmark beacons"
>should average one for every two subsectors or so. And be tied together
>(eventually) with laserlinks to establish a "survey grid" (much like
>the USGS system of surveying benchmarks in the US.

        Call it the Galactic Positioning System, or GPS :).

        Timothy Ferris had a similar idea, but one where the stations
function as automated *libraries*, as well as observatories.  Essentially,
they'd serve as a galaxy-wide internet (with massive propagation delays).
Where radio emissions from an emerging planet were detected, the nearest
station would begin  recording data and beaming info towards it, and once
the new civilization picked up and deciphered the signal, it could download
and upload, the uploads being distributed around the net over the course of
centuries.  This presupposed no FTL travel of course; otherwise an emerging
and aggressive civilization could get its hands on all sorts of nasty tech
and emerge to kick some galactic butt :).

        OTOH, it might make a neat Traveller campaign if one were willing to
mess with the historical background.  The concept has lots of potential:
imagine a system of the sort set up just before the Long Night as a means of
bringing civilization back together again, but that never came fully online.
For whatever reason, centuries later the characters' homeworld discovers the
existence of the net (which in the meantime has been gathering information
about hundreds of systems, aside from its library of pre-collapse knowledge)
and sends the characters out to the the nearest station to secure the
immensely valuable information, encountering all sorts of nifty hazards
along the way.  

        I can think of several others (pirates getting their hands on the
local station and wreaking havoc, factional struggle for control of the net
as it was being set up, campaigns based around discovery of and battle for
control of the net by several worlds, but I'll spare you all :).
    
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Albert Lowe <sirdirk@xnet.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 20:00:53 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Aircraft: Single vs. Multiple Engine.

On Mon, 10 Jun 1996, Charles Collin wrote:

> Hi all.  Does anyone object to using this single engine vs. multiple
> engine cascade idea instead of jet vs. prop?  If not, I'll include it in
> my next skill list update. 

Actually, you should have a single-jet, and a multi-jet, as well as 
single and multi prop skills.  There are differences between all of 
them.  Even the FAA says so.

+-----------------------------------------+
:Al Lowe              sirdirk@xnet.com    :
:HOMEPAGE at http://www.xnet.com/~sirdirk :
: "I'd rather win nothing, than WIN95"    :
+-----------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:21:23 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Apology

        Seems that yesterday I inadvertently sent something to this mailing
list rather than the person for whom it was intended.  Apologies to all for
inconvenience, confusion, boredom, and wasted bandwidth.
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 20:00:32 -0600
Subject: Re: design system: fundemental suggestion

At 09:35 am 6/10/96 -0700, you wrote:

>(1) Calculate all volumens in the classic displacement ton, not m3; round to
>nearest m3 (which may result in some components, like controls, having
>zero volume.) Rationale: fewer fractions for people to deal with, smaller
>and less intimidating numbers, saves converting back and forth from
>disp-tons

        There's not that much converting back & forth anyway. Off the top of
my head, I can't think of a single place. Frankly, I'd rather ditch disp
tons anyway ... they serve no useful purpose, they're inconsistent with
vehicles and they're a confusing unit for people ("100 tons ... that's not
very big" "One ton is fourteen cubic meters" "Oh, ok. Waitaminit ... you're
telling me my 2 ton car is 28 cubic meters!?!?!?" "No, that's a different
type of ton" "Ok, how much does my spaceship weigh?" "700 tons, fully
loaded" "Oh boy ... I need some excedrin" It's a volume measurement hiding
behind a mass name, referenced to an uncommon physical unit. Cubic meters
and mass tonnes are something much more familiar to most people, even us
jingoistic, stick-in-the mud Americans who refuse to rationalize. When
trying to explain something to somebody, it's easier to describe it in units
of "about the length of your arm" than "well, it's related to a vast
quantity of cryogenic hydrogen." But enough ... I didn't realize I had that
button to be pushed ... wow!

>(2) Ignore power requirements for all devices taking less than 0.1 MW (for
>starships, not vehicles, obviously.) Again, saves lots of addition

        Good point. But on tables where the power starts out below 0.1 at
the top, and winds up much higher on later lines, I'll keep it in

>(3)(4)(5) and (6) all go together and are more controversial:
>
>(3) Ignore mass

        Mass is pretty much ignored anyway. But it's in there for two
reasons ... some people want to know how heavy something is (yes, I know the
difference between mass & weight), and some people want to use this for what
it started out as -- a quick & dirty Fire, Fusion and Steel!

>(4) Ignore surface area

        Already written into the rules that you can ignore surface area in
favor of the "rule of thumb" of one turret per 100Td or one bay per 1,000Td.

>(5) Limit starships to a certain maximum armor value as a function of hull size

        Puttin in a limit would actually complicate the rules right now, I
think. And I'm trying desperately to avoid "arbitrary" rules.

>(6) Limit number of weapons and sensors as a function of hull size

        Already don ... either by area or by "one weapon per ..." If you can
come up with a good rule of thumb for sensors?

>maitaining upward compatibility with FFS. We could still include the mass and
>surface numbers in the tables, but make calculating them optional for people
>who obey a maximum weapons armor rule, as a compromise...

        They are optional.

>cc'd to the TML because that's where the non-gearheads, who might like this
>best, hang out.

        cc'd right back at'em, to let them know what's up.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 20:13:18 -0700
Subject: Re: Skill Specialization

At 06:38 PM 6/10/96 GMT, you wrote:
>One of the things I've noticed is that people seem to be advocating increased
>skill specialization/differentiation in areas that they know a lot about.  As
>a slightly tongue-in-cheek example, I would split Pedagogy into several
>cascades: Instruction (transferring information), Evaluation (determining
>level of knowledge), Curriculum (planning complete instructional program)...
>
>All of these choices sound logical, and after all as a society we trust
>experts, but...
>
>Adventurers must be _generalists_, because they will have to adapt to
>different situations, equipment, and so on!
>
>I would prefer to see fewer, broader skills with the explicit understanding
>that this breadth is deliberate.  If a player chose to specialize, I would
>award them bonuses within their speciality and penalties outside it.
>
>I think a reasonable compromise is to use the full-level-for-one,
>half-for-others style used in TNE and Space 1889.  The assumption is that the
>character concentrated on one area,but didn't neglect others within the
>field.

Unfortunately as the ages have progressed it has become necessary to become
increasingly specialize in our feilds of expertise.  Back in the 1600 it was
all well and fine to be a Renesance Man but now a day's it's very different.
How many computer technitians can fix the monitor as well as the computer
and how many computer programers know how to figure out which chip on their
main board is fried.  Next to none I'll bet.

As things become increasingly complicated the human job market becomes
increasingly specialized.  It's just the way things work.  Lets face it by
the time the T4 time frame rolls around thing's will be even more complicated.  

Take your average engine.  Internal Combustion right, fuel injected or
carburated? computer controlled timing, electronic ignition, spark plugs.
Diesel or Gas.  The average gasoline engine mechanic spends two weeks a year
learning what the latest technologies are in his particular brand.  Imagine
if he had to learn all of the new motor advances on every engine designed
and constructed every year in the USA alone.  It's pretty mind boggling. 

Imagine if you had to keep up on advances in electronic, sensors, weapons,
gravatics, power plants and every other system that keeps the average
starship up and running.  I realize that the average starship engineer
devotes a career to a single ship but lets face it, the average navel tech
would be so specialize it's not funny.

"Hey buddy, this gravatic system's acting up.  You wanna fix it?"

"Sorry man, I do the magnetic focusing systems on partical accelerators, I
don't know a damn thing about gravatics any more.  I mean I took the entry
level course in the academy but that was twenty years ago things have
changed.  You want to talk to Dave over there, he's the gravatic's engineer."

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 16:32:10 -0600
Subject: Re: Komet

On 06/10/96 at 08:01 PM,  jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said:

>=> The Komet used a built in belly skid for landing. The drop-off
>wheels => were for keeping the takeoff short and smooth.

>desperate times call for desperate measures. I keep thinking that
>maybe at least *one* of those pilots gave a double-take after
>take-off when he saw his undercarriage roll past him on the ground! 

The Discovery channel has a series called WINGS, one of the episodes
was on the Komet..veeeery interesting.  <g> 

The undercarriage didn't roll past the plane after it dropped off, it
bounced!  The wheel assembly didn't drop until the pilot pulled a
lever just after leaving the ground.  The carriage dropped off and
bounced, hitting more than one Komet on the rebound.  The results of
the wheels bouncing back up and hitting a tank of monopropellent can
be imagined...

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 16:32:10 -0600
Subject: Re: Komet

On 06/10/96 at 08:01 PM,  jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said:

>=> The Komet used a built in belly skid for landing. The drop-off
>wheels => were for keeping the takeoff short and smooth.

>desperate times call for desperate measures. I keep thinking that
>maybe at least *one* of those pilots gave a double-take after
>take-off when he saw his undercarriage roll past him on the ground! 

The Discovery channel has a series called WINGS, one of the episodes
was on the Komet..veeeery interesting.  <g> 

The undercarriage didn't roll past the plane after it dropped off, it
bounced!  The wheel assembly didn't drop until the pilot pulled a
lever just after leaving the ground.  The carriage dropped off and
bounced, hitting more than one Komet on the rebound.  The results of
the wheels bouncing back up and hitting a tank of monopropellent can
be imagined...

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: mike foy <musashi@norfolk.infi.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 00:17:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Jets

At 09:29 AM 6/10/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>On Mon, 10 Jun 1996 normf@wegener.com wrote:
>
>> Right. The Germans fielded a horrible (from a pilot's point of view)
>> aircraft called the Comet. It was a rocket based airplane that gave no
>> throttle control to the pilot. The pilot rode at the front of a lit
>> rocket for about 30 minutes. When the rocket burned out, he glided
>> home.
>
>Actually, it was about 8 minutes, not 30.  And there was a throttle of 
>sorts, the rocket engine could either be on, or off, that was about it.
>
>
Normally, a lurker (I'm on 12 Mailing Lists) I had to mention:

Me 163 fuel was T-STOFF and C-STOFF. It had a tendency to eat through their
tanks. Occaisionally they'd leak on the ground and the crew would find only
melted pilot. C-Stoff through chemical reaction would make bodyfat boil. The
fumes often killed the pilot despite protective clothing and oxygen mask.
The resources to this project if applied to the Ta-162 Volksfighter or the
Me-262 programs would have been a better idea. The decision to keep the
Me-109 line going after 1942 instead of pusuing the Me-208 or FW-190 really
destroyed the Luftwaffe (and not gearing up for wartime pilot training). 

But I digress, if you think the Komet was nasty,you should try the Natter, a
vertically launched solid rocket powered missle carrier. This probably what
a T6 or T7 culture would develop to fight in ultra-high altitudes.
Fortunately for people in the 8th Air Force most Natters blew up on the
launch pad during the flight testing phase in Fall 1944.

Musashi



------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 00:12:27 -0600
Subject: Scholarship vs. Science

On 06/10/96 at 05:20 PM,  Charles Collin
<charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> said:

>o	The "Scholar" vs. "Science" distinction has been eliminated.  Not 
>	sure how it would be implemented in the game anyway...

It depends on how you want to approach things, I guess.

Scholar - Studies existing data in a field and seeks new insights and
conclusions.  May or may not apply the scientific method to his
studies.  Most useful for re-examining existing data for new insights
and rediscovering old ones.

Scientist - Seeks new insights in a field through application of the
scientific method.  Proposes an hypothesis, performs experiments,
evaluates results.  Most useful for creating new data and discovering
new knowledges.

Example:  The University of Sylean receives a grant from Cleon to
reproduce the Thruster Plate MDrive used during the Rule of Man.

Scholar Zar digs through the archive's records finding bits and pieces
of data where T-Plates are mentioned.  From his search he reconstructs
how T-Plates must have worked.  

Scientist Flan forms the hypothesis that T-Plates worked through some
sort of gravity control. So he studies what is known about gravtics
and constructs a series of experiments hoping to learn how T-Plates
work.  

In this case either method might work, or fail.  The work of the
scholar would be very useful to the scientist.  The experiments of the
scientist would give the scholar more data to work with.

Both approaches can be useful, but they aren't the same.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 01:03:38 -0700
Subject: Re: stuff in general

From:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"  3-JUN-1996 16:02:40.25
To:	IN%"traveller@MPGN.COM"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: stuff in general

Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 15:45:16 -0700
From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Subject: Re: stuff in general

>Reality check . . .
>My players (for the most part) are about as non-technically inclined as they
>come.  These folks probably some of the best role players I've ever met
>though.  They are however always asking about what capabilities the
>machinery has.  Megawatts are something real, somewhat tangible, and provide
>an excellent scale for  comparison.  Besides, my players provide some
>interisting technobabble :>)

Absolutely.  The format used to create starship and generally adventure in
CT and MT was a system that while created in a wonderfully interesting
setting forced the players and GM's to play inspite of the rules.  THere
seemed to be little rhyme or reason on how equipment worked or if there was
any kind of physical reality that it was based on.

PLAYER:  What is it?

GM:  Its a small back box 25cm by 25cm by 10 cm.

PLAYER:  And when I push the button?

GM:  You trigger a magnitude 10 earthquake that quickly sends the planet
back to the stone age.

PLAYER:  How did it do that?

GM:  Ummmmmm...  Its a sonic. . . no metaphysical. . . no hyperdynamic ...
awww crap, just trust me it flattens the planet.

What kind of a system is that to play in?  Things have to possess some kind
of hard physics behind them, even if the physics are far further advanced
than ours they still need to have some kind of logic behind them.

D. Stanley
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

All TNE would add to this is a lot more "official" elaboration that would
be gobbledegook nonetheless . In the end, we still would have no real idea 
how something like this would/could work. Sometimes, in real life, we just 
don't know. I don't see why such an occurrence should be forbidden while 
role-playing. By adding all the extra complexity, instead of just letting
the GM free-lance in this sort of situation, you wind up restricting pos-
sibilities instead of expanding them. Complexity just for the sake of com-
plexity is counter-productive. FF&S is a prime example.

Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu
 



------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 18:18:37 PST
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #73

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> writes:

> >Getting back to Traveller, if the ship is in a position to give support
> >from orbit, it *won't* take any "10 minutes". Assuming nothing more
> >than a boost that changes the *vector*, but not the velocity of the
> >projectile, fire from a ship 1000 km up, would impact in 125 seconds. 
> >Fire support ships are likely to be at more like *100* km, so it'd take
> >13 seconds. And make a mess of whatever it hit.
> 
> Include the "mechanical time" of making sure the correct round is loaded,
> training the missle launcher, uploading the shot parameters to the missles..
> now add crew fatigue and indifference (the "I'm not being shot at" syndrome
> that affects some artillery types).

If you are dropping it from orbit it is effectively APFSDS. :-) Though
it acts a lot like HE too. Remember, the kinetic energy at 8 km/sec
(typical orbital velocity) is 7 times that of an equal mass of TNT. 
So there's no point trying for fancy round types.

> And drones make people nervous.  There is only one reason to fly an
> expensive drone over an area where it might take fire, and that is that a
> world of hurt is planned for the region.  A trained FO, hiding in a bush,
> can call in literally tons of fireworks without giving up the show.  The
> first hint that something is wrong is the whistle of incoming (or, at higher
> TLs, your point-defence gun opens up).

Drones are getting a *lot* cheaper after a couple of fiascos where the
government contractors took a *cheap*, reliable design and made it
expensive and less reliable.

> Picture the scene on most Fire Support ships...  panicked calls from all
> over the planet, a limited supply of missles..

Since the missiles are essentially "smart crowbars" for attacks on
things like tanks, and "flying telephone poles for attacks on larger
things, the supply can be a lot bigger than you'd think. Besides, you
are gonna have to "station" the ship over the fighting, or else have a
*lot* of ships.

Oh yeah. it just occurred to me that there might be a third "ammo type"
for ortillery. Something along the lines of the "lazy dog" they used in
Viet Nam. At a *high* altitude above the target the round breaks open
into several *tons* of 50 gram (2 oz) projectiles. Properly deployed
you get many per square meter, making things fatal for even troops in
battle dress! Near as I can figure, one ton of these, dispersed to a
density of 10 per sq meter would cover 20 hectares. At 1 per sq meter
it'd cover 200 hectares. That's what I call cheap anti-personnel
rounds. :-)




Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 11 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 079

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Jump into unknown space
         2. Jet Trivia

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 96 21:39:11 PST
Subject: Re: Jump into unknown space

dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin) writes:

> >BTW, if IG is interested, I could expand this, and a few other ideas
> >into an article on surveying and nacigation, complete with "what do you
> >do if you jump into empty space" :-)
> 
> I am very interested. If you can give it to me relatively quickly, and I
> like it, I may be able to include it in the starships book. I would give
> you credit for it on the credits page. I wouldn't be able to pay you, but
> I'd sure like your input.

Maybe you can send me a copy of the book? :-)

Anyway, here's what I came up with:

                           Navigation

Interplanetary navigation uses principles that date back to the 20th
century (Old Terran). Much like the Global Positioning System (GPS) of
that era, most systems in the Imperium have a number of satellites
scattered widely around the system. Each satellite broadcasts a data
stream consisting of its ID, its position relative to the mainworld,
and a precise atomic clock time.

Onboard a ship, a special receiver unit takes the data from 3 or more
such signals and integrates it to determine the ship's position to an
initial accuracy of 100 km or less. by using more signals and 10
minutes or so of listening to them, a ship can get a position to
accuracies of 1 km or better.

A portion of the data from the satellites is encrypted. Ships equipped
with the proper decryption circuit can get the 1 km accuracy
immediately. Such gear is reserved for the Imperial military and it is
a criminal offense to posses it without authorization.

In time of war the entire signal is encrypted, thus forcing non-
miltary users to go back to the methods used in undeveloped systems.
These amount to using the ship's radar and/or telescope to locate the
planets and determine the ship's position from these sightings with the
aid of an ephemeris for the system. This can take 30 minutes or longer
to get a fix that's only good to about 1 light second, unless they are
within a few light seconds of a planet.

This gives the Imperial military a distinct advantage when they jump
from or to a system equipped with SPS (System Positioning System)
satellites.


                         Imperial Survey

The Imperial Survey was established to help map both the existing
territory of the Imperium and the surrounding areas that had been lost
during the long night.

The mapping project started by establishing a pair of observatories in
the outskirts of a pair of systems one parsec apart. The line between
them became the baseline for the Imperial maps. (My maps are in
storage, so I can't check this, but it'd be nice if one could be
"Capital" and another the system immediately "above" or "below" it, if
such exist).

The observatories each had large telescopes used for sky mapping.  They
also had a LARGE laser aimed in the direction of the other observatory.
The lasers were modulated with a signal similar to that used by the SPS
satellites.

Once the laser beam reached the other observatory (3.26 years after it
started), comparing the time information with the clocks at the
observatory gave the distance between them to an accuracy measured in
fractions of a millimeter. For additional accuracy, the time info was
echoed back to the originator over a second channel in the laser link.

Thus, after three and a quarter years, the length of the baseline was
known with incredible accuracy. And after signal info had made a round
trip (7.52 years total), the distance and relative movements of the two
observaties was known exactly.

With this info, the sky survey photos from the two observatories could
be compared for positional differences in the stars (parallax). The
parallax, plus the length of the baseline allowed precise location of
stars even *thousands* of parsecs away. Only stars oscured by dust
clouds and nebula will be hidden.

With positions known, other telescopes studied the nearer stars in the
uknown territory. With careful observations, it is possible to detect
gas giants, and even normal planets or asteroid belts. Even more info
is possible with careful study.

The initial parallax survey determined only position and stellar type
(O,A,B,F,G,K,M, etc). The follow-on surveys of stars can determine
*class* (ie the difference between a G0 and a G9 star) quickly.
Determining presence of gas giants takes a year or so.  Presence of
smaller bodies can take several years, and detecting atmosphere and
hydro (to the limited extent possible by astronomical observation)
takes even longer (a decade?).

This meant that it was determined that the best course would be to have
to survey determine positions, and presences of gas giants *only*, and
send ships to determine the rest. Thus was born the Imperial
Interstellar Scout Service.


                 Interstellar Navigational Grid

As a secondary goal, the Scout Service established a "survey grid" of
beacons that would allow generating even *longer* baselines for
observations, though at lesser accuracy. It also had an unintended
secondary effect of allowing misjumped ships to easily determine where
they were even if there are no nearby stars.

The "grid" consists of extremely powerful transmitters, distributed
throughout a sector. On average, there will be one for every two
sub-sectors. These transmitters send out an ID and a time signal. As
with SPS systems, and the Imperial Baseline, signal comparisons give
distance.

It wasn't until a liner misjumped and landed in "empty space" a parsec
from the nearest star, that the other use for these beacons was
invented. The ship had fuel enough for another jump, thanks to being
lucky enough to find a small comet-like body within manuever drive
range. But they didn't know *where* to jump, and while they were using
the ships telescope to attempt to match stars to their charts, they
weren't certain that they'd be able to pinpoint their locate before
they ran out of food. (The telescopes on ships are *not* intended for
that sort of work!)

One of the junior communications officers had run out several
kilometers of wire from engineering spares to make an antenna. He was
hoping to be able to pick up an identifiable signal to help with
narrowing down the ships position. A navigotor wandered by as he tuned
past one of the beacons and recognized the signal for what it was.
Within hours they'd reprogrammed an SPS module to handle the grid
beacon signals. And a week later they popped out of jump near a
starport.

The news of this "miraculous" escape spread quickly, and gear for
determining the ships location in interstellar space by using grid
beacons is now standard emergency gear.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Jamie Young <jamie@tsc.scotnet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 11:08:07 +0100
Subject: Jet Trivia

>Trivia fact.  The Komet was test flown by a woman.  Can't remember her name
>though, they found it rather difficult to get male volountiers to test fly
>the thing.  This was all of the original test flights, not just one.

Hannah Reich (?)


------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 11 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 080

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Jet Trivia
         2. Re: More Jet/Rocket trivia
         3. Re: Komet
         4. Re: Jets
         5. Traveller Auction/Sale
         6. Re: First Aid vs. Medical.
         7. Apologies:bounced mail 5/31
         8. Spires
         9. Re: Jump into unknown space
        10. Re: First Aid vs. Medical.
        11. Re: Spires
        12. Re: First Aid vs. Medical.
        13. Re: First Aid vs. Medical.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Albert Lowe <sirdirk@xnet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:31:47 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Jet Trivia

On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Jamie Young wrote:

> >Trivia fact.  The Komet was test flown by a woman.  Can't remember her name
> >though, they found it rather difficult to get male volountiers to test fly
> >the thing.  This was all of the original test flights, not just one.
> 
> Hannah Reich (?)

Actually, that's close I believe, I've been trying to find the correct 
spelling of Hanna's last name, but I also found out that she wasn't the 
only test pilot of the ME-163.  She was just the only WOMAN test pilot.


+-----------------------------------------+
:Al Lowe              sirdirk@xnet.com    :
:HOMEPAGE at http://www.xnet.com/~sirdirk :
: "I'd rather win nothing, than WIN95"    :
+-----------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Poseidon <Dave.Robertson@newcastle.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:36:40 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: More Jet/Rocket trivia

I've noticed a lot of discussion of low-TL air defence craft, such as the 
Bachem Natter and Me-163 Komet. Another of the Germans wild ideas was in 
the field of guided weapons. They took a V-1 flying bomb, and placed a 
cockpit with rudimentary controls for a pilot. I believe it was the 
Fieseler F-103(?) The pilot was then intended to bail out immediately before 
impact. The fact that he would bail out into the ram-jet intake was not 
considered a problem. This thing actually had volunteers to fly it as well. 
It never got beyond the test-pilot stage(I think) because their chief pilot 
was injured trying to exit in flight.

Dave.


------------------------------

From: Albert Lowe <sirdirk@xnet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:37:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Komet

On Mon, 10 Jun 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> The undercarriage didn't roll past the plane after it dropped off, it
> bounced!  The wheel assembly didn't drop until the pilot pulled a
> lever just after leaving the ground.  The carriage dropped off and
> bounced, hitting more than one Komet on the rebound.  The results of
> the wheels bouncing back up and hitting a tank of monopropellent can
> be imagined...

As has been previously mentioned here, and if you watched the Wings 
episode on the ME-163, you should realize that the Walther rocket motor 
was a BI-propellant motor.  Again, it used two fuels that were kept 
seperate until they were fed to the rocket motor.  These the Germans 
called T-stoff, and C-Stoff.  They were quite volatile when mixed.  
Seperate, they weren't too bad, unless you got some poured on you, in 
which case you simply dissolved to nothing. 


+-----------------------------------------+
:Al Lowe              sirdirk@xnet.com    :
:HOMEPAGE at http://www.xnet.com/~sirdirk :
: "I'd rather win nothing, than WIN95"    :
+-----------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Albert Lowe <sirdirk@xnet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:43:59 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Jets

On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, mike foy wrote:

> The resources to this project if applied to the Ta-162 Volksfighter or the

I hate to nit pick, but the Volksjaeger was the HE-162, not Ta, that was 
the Ta-152, a further development of the FW-190 series, and a prop plane, 
not a jet like the HE-162.  Though, as prop planes go, it was probably 
one of the best in the world.

> Me-262 programs would have been a better idea. The decision to keep the
> Me-109 line going after 1942 instead of pusuing the Me-208 or FW-190 really

What was the ME-208?  I'm not familiar with this particular model.

+-----------------------------------------+
:Al Lowe              sirdirk@xnet.com    :
:HOMEPAGE at http://www.xnet.com/~sirdirk :
: "I'd rather win nothing, than WIN95"    :
+-----------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 10:27:39 -0400
Subject: Traveller Auction/Sale

Greetings All:

I'm trying to sell off my duplicates. They are not doing my any good sitting
in the basement--I'd rather see them used by people like me--fans of
Traveller. So, I'm having a sale/auction.

Prices listed below are what I paid--I'm not looking to make a profit here,
only a "wash" of expenses.

If you are interested in a item, please send me e-mail (DO NOT POST REQUESTS
TO THE XBOAT OR TRAVELLER MAILING LISTS!).

Procedure:

For the first two weeks I'm running this, I'll accept requests to purchase at
the listed price. If at the end of the first two weeks, you are the only
person seeking that particular item we have a deal. If at the end of the
first two weeks there are multiple people seeking that item, then we will
have a auction for the next two weeks. If at the end of four weeks time,
anything is left over, I'll have a "fire sale" in which I slash prices...Many
apologies--I'm only transacting with folks in the US and Canada. Why? When I
sold off duplicates many years ago and did some overseas, the grief was far
higher than the return. Apologies to our overseas friends, but, I do offer an
alternative:

******************************************************************************
**************
If you can suggest an alternative method than IRC's and checks with foreign
funds and all that stuff--great!
******************************************************************************
**************

US participants: If you give me a work address, I'll send the stuff out
postage free. If you only have a home address, I'll have to charge postage.
Canadian participants: I'm afraid I'll have to charge postage. US funds for
payment, please.

Please contact: Fred Kiesche (Fkiesche3@aol.com)

Books:
To Dream of Chaos, Paul Brunette (Traveller: The New Era novel, second of
three in a trilogy) ($5.95)
[Thorinn@AOL.COM]

Games:
Snapshot (GDW, Series 120 version, complete, all pieces here, good condition)
($8.00)

Rules Books:
Book 4--Mercenary
Copy One (eleventh printing): Edges taped, corners bent, interior taped,
otherwise complete ($1.00)
Copy Two (sixth printing):  Some foxing, some stains interior pages ($4.00)
Book 5--High Guard
Copy Two (first printing, second edition): Some foxing, price tag inside
front cover ($4.00)
Copy Three (sixth printing, second edition): Price tag front cover, otherwise
mint condition ($4.00)
Book 6--Scouts
Copy Three (first printing): Some foxing and wearing outside and interior
covers, some corners bent or worn ($4.00)
Book 7--Merchant Prince (second printing): Excellent condition except for
inscription on interior title page which reads: "Merry Christmas Baby, don't
get this one stolen, OK? Love Leslie". Will make for interesting dinner
conversation with your wife or girl friend...($4.00)
Book Eight--Robots
Copy One (first printing): Some foxing and corners bent ($4.00)

Adventures:
Action Aboard--Adventures on the King Richard (FASA): Price tag on cover,
very slight foxing. Contains simplified deck plans for use with adventure
($4.00)
Across the Bright Face/Mission on Mithril (Double Adventure Two) (GDW)
Copy Two (third printing): Price tag on front cover, some wearing/foxing
($4.00)
Argon Gambit/Death Station (Double Adventure Three) (GDW)
Copy One (first printing): Some foxing on covers, ink stain (can't tell if it
happened from the printer or the original owner...) inside front cover
($4.00)
Copy Two (third printing): Some foxing on covers, name of original owner
inside cover ($4.00)
Copy Three (first printing): Price tag on cover, otherwise mint ($4.00)
Broadsword (Adventure Seven) (GDW)
Copy Two (first printing): Slight foxing of covers ($4.00)
Copy Three (first printing): Slight foxing of covers, name on interior
($4.00)
The Drenslaar Quest (Gamelords, Ltd): Price on front cover, otherwise like
new condition ($4.00)
Duneraiders (Gamelords, Ltd): Price on front cover and rear cover, otherwise
like new condition ($4.00)
The Imperial Fringe (Introductory Adventure) (GDW)
Copy One (first printing): Foxing on covers, edges worn ($3.00)
Copy Two (second printing): Like new condition! ($5.00)
The Kinunir (Adventure One) (GDW)
Copy One (fourth printing): Foxing on covers, some interior notes, center
pages (plans) loose. ($4.00)
Lee's Guide to Interstellar Adventure (Volume One) (Gamelords, Ltd): New
condition ($4.00) 
Leviathan (Adventure Four) (GDW, written by Games Workshop before they found
WH40k!)
Copy One (first printing): Slight foxing of covers, price tag front cover
($4.00)
Copy Two (second printing): Slight foxing of covers ($4.00)
Copy Three (first printing): Slight foxing of covers, scratch front cover
($4.00)
Research Station Gamma (Adventure Two) (GDW)
Copy Two (first printing): Some slight foxing of covers, otherwise like new
(go figure!) ($4.00)
Safari Ship (Adventure Ten) (GDW)
Copy One (first printing): Slight foxing of covers, price tags front and back
covers ($4.00)
Shadows/Annic Nova (Double Adventure One) (GDW)
Copy One (fifth printing): Some foxing on covers, name inside cover ($4.00)
Copy Two (fourth printing): Absolutely brand new condition ($4.00)
The Spinward Marches Campaign: Some foxing on covers, some bending and
wearing of corners. A few hand written notes on pages. ($8.00.)
Trillion Credit Squadron (Adventure Five) (GDW)
Copy One (third printing): Foxing of covers, name interior cover ($4.00)
Copy Two (third printing): Foxing of covers ($4.00))
Copy Three (second printing): Price tag on front and rear covers, some foxing
rear cover, otherwise mint ($4.00)
Twilight's Peak (Adventure Three) (GDW) (my favorite!)
Copy Two (second printing): Some foxing of covers, price tag on front cover,
marks where paper clip was used on interior ($4.00))
Wanted: Adventurers (Gamelords, Ltd): Stain from price tag on front cover.
Name of previous owner interior cover. ($4.00))

Supplements:
76 Patrons (Supplement Six) (GDW)
Copy Two (sixth printing): Slight foxing, some interior stains ($4.00)
101 Vehicles (Digest Group Publications) ($10.00) Excellent condition, like
new)
1001 Characters (Supplement One) (GDW)
Copy Two (ninth printing): Foxing, some water damage (?) ($2.00)
Aslan (GDW)
Copy Two: Slight foxing on covers ($5.00)
Copy Three: More foxing on covers, but, original "folio" version where text
was not attached to covers, price tag on cover ($8.00)
Citizens of the Imperium (Supplement Four) (GDW)
Copy Two (sixth printing): Moderate foxing, worn edges, some tearing on lower
edge ($2.00)
Darrians (GDW): Slight foxing, price tag on rear cover ($7.00))
Fighting Ships (Supplement Nine) (GDW) (third printing) ($5.00): Price tag,
front cover, otherwise mint condition
Fighting Ships of the Shattered Imperium (GDW) ($10.00): Excellent condition,
like new
Forms and Charts (Supplement Twelve) (GDW) (third printing): Slight foxing
($4.00))
Ley Sector (The Judges Guild) ($6.00) Still in original wrapper!)
Library Data (A-M) (Supplement Eight) (GDW)
Copy One (first printing): Slight foxing on covers ($4.00)
Copy Two (first printing): Moderate foxing on covers ($4.00)
Solomani (GDW): Slight foxing ($8.00))
The Spinward Marches (Supplement Three) (GDW)
Copy Two (fifth printing): Slight foxing, crease front cover, some notes in
pencil ($4.00)
Starship Operator's Manual, Volume One (Digest Group Publications) ($20.00)
Like new!)
Traders and Gunboats (Supplement Seven) (GDW)
Copy One (fifth printing): Moderate worn covers, some stains ($4.00)
Vargr (GDW): Some foxing on back cover, one corner slightly bent ($8.00))
Veterans (Supplement Thirteen) (GDW) (first printing): Moderate foxing on
covers ($4.00))

Magazines:

Except in the case of Travellers Digest/MegaTraveller Journal, I have not
really indicated the contents of various magazines. If you want to know what
a particular issue of the Journal, Challenge, etc. contains, I'll try to give
you a description, but remember I type all day at work and don't really feel
up to a full description of 20 issues of Challenge, etc., at night!

Challenge Magazine (GDW)  (price $5.00 unless otherwise indicated): 25
($15.00, 2 copies), 27 ($8.00, 2 copies), 28 ($7.00, (2 copies), 29, 30, 31
(2 copies), 32 (2 copies), 33 (3 copies), 34 (2 copies), 35 (3 copies), 37 (2
copies), 38 (2 copies), 39 (2 copies, one with Hinterworlds
supplement--$5.00; one without Hinterworlds supplement--$3.25). For Issues 40
to 77, cover price or best offer accepted: 40 (2 copies), 41 (3 copies), 42,
43 (2 copies), 44 (2 copies), 45 (4 copies), 46 (2 copies), 47, 48, 51 (3
copies), 52 (2 copies), 53 (2 copies), 54 (2 copies), 55 (2 copies), 56 (2
copies), 57 (3 copies), 58 (2 copies), 59 (2 copies), 62 (2 copies), 64 (2
copies), 65, 68 (2 copies), 69 (3 copies), 70 (2 copies), 71 (2 copies), 72
(2 copies), 73 (2 copies), 74, 75, 76, 77

Journal of the Travellers' Aid Society (GDW):
Twelve: "Merchant Prince Pull Out" (MP supplement is loose) ($8.00)
Fourteen: "Laws and Lawbreakers" ($8.00))
Twenty-Four: "Religion in the Two Thousand Worlds" ($8.00))
The Best of the Journal Volume Three (covers issues 9 to 12) ($2.00) Cover
creased.

The MegaTraveller Journal (Digest Group Publications):
Three: "Rapid Repo" ($18.00))

Traveller Chronicle (Sword of Knight Publications):
Four: "Far Frontiers Sector", "Runner", etc. ($3.75))

Non-Traveller Items:
2300 AD--Kafer Dawn ($5.00)
Twilight: 2000--Red Star, Lone Star ($5.00)


------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 10:34:43 -0400
Subject: Re: First Aid vs. Medical.

At 08:08 PM 6/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Okay.  You've convinced me.  In the next skill list, I'll make First Aid 
>and Medical separate.  I think we're getting a little too involved when 
>we start cascading farming into three or four subdivisions, though.

I must have missed something.  All posts I have seen have been in favor of
"First Aid" == medic 1.  That is the Traveller Way.  I can't possiably see
some one with First Aid-4 having a better chance to fix someone than a
Doctor which is defined in CT as Medic-3.  To have First Aid be a seperate
skill means that you have to give default First Aids to people with medical:

  Medic 1 = First Aid 2
  Medic 2 = First Aid 4
  Medic 3 = First Aid 6

Etc.

I think "First Aid" as a skill is a bad idea all together.  Use Medic for
what  its for:

    Medic 0 -- Able to render First Aid
    Medic 1 -- EMT/Nurse
    Medic 2 -- Paramedic/RN
    Medic 3 -- Doctor
    Medic 4 -- Specialist

We are discussing the skill list for Traveller not any other system.
Traveller has a way of doing things and you can't fractionalize a skill like
this.  This would be like taking Vehicle(ground) and breaking it into:
Sedan, 4x4, race-car. 
I would have a skill of race-car-5, but only a sedan-1, and have a worse chance
of driving the family car.  Some how I think that Michael Andretti can
handle the family car better than the average driver.  Medic is the skill of
fixing a hurt/ill body.  First Aid is the lowest level of that skill.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: "Peter  H. Brenton" <pete@cummings.uchicago.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:33:05 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Apologies:bounced mail 5/31

Just a quick not to apologize for the "Mailbox Full" messages sent to the
lists at the end of the weekend of 5/31.

The situation has been fixed.

Pete
pbrenton@state.ma.us (preferred) or pete@cummings.uchicago.edu


------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 10:55:10 -0400
Subject: Spires

>And can anyone give me more, canon, knowledge on "Spires."  Here's the
>debait my GM and I are having, hell its more like a heated argument.  He
>feels that the Spiri were abandoned on Spires during the Long Night and that
>their technology degraded to it's current level, TL2.  I on the other hand
>bleive that the Spiri were transplanted there by the Ancients and have since
>developed on their own.  
I don't think there is anymore canonical details about Spires.  One of
my players just rolled up a character from Spires, so I have been
thinking about it lately.  I assume it was an colony that regressed in
the Long Night.  If they were transplanted by the Ancients that would
make them a minor Human race, like the Vilani, Zhodani, Suerat, Geonee,
etc.  POT never makes any reference to this, so I tend to assume it didn't happen. 

Just what I think. 
Lewis

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 09:45:48 -0400
Subject: Re: Jump into unknown space

[All in all, I like it.  One comment, though]

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
> The "grid" consists of extremely powerful transmitters, distributed
> throughout a sector. On average, there will be one for every two
> sub-sectors. These transmitters send out an ID and a time signal. As
> with SPS systems, and the Imperial Baseline, signal comparisons give
> distance.

These things would have to be extremely powerful (to the point of requiring
small stars for power sources), and it would take decades before the "grid"
was useful, due to the delay in propagating the signal accross 30 light
years of space.

This all seems rather wasteful, when there's already a grid in place that's
usable by anyone, anywhere [*].  All a civilization needs to do is some survey
and calibration work.  There are quite a number of pulsars in the galaxy;
they produce a distinctive radio signal that slowly changes over time,
making it a natural "clock".  The pulsars are powerful enough that their
signals can be detected all over the galaxy.

Using the very-long-baseline observatories mentioned earlier, the exact
locations of the most useful pulsars can be determined.  Benchmarking
surveys both within and outside of Imperial territory can sample the
pulsar's signal, so that it's "clock" is known with a high degree of
accuracy.

Finally, with all of the information published, any ship, literally anywhere
in the galaxy, that has a set of IISS pulsar charts can determine where it
is in deep space (even in previously-uncharted deep space) with a good
degree of accuracy.  Well, that and a working radio communicator.

It's also and adventure hook: PCs in a scoutship could be charged with
performing a benchmarking survey: literally all they have to do is to travel
ten parsecs in a given direction, stopping for a while at each location
along the way to record singnals from the various pulsars.  And return.

The only thing that makes this challenging is that it's into relatively
unknown, unexplored territory.  The benchmarking has to be performed before
the survey work starts, so all they've got to work with is a map showing
star locations and the presence or absence of gas giants.


[*] Anyone that writes an adventure crediting (or blaming) Grandfather for
creating pulsars as a private navigational aid had better write a _good_
one!


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:18:28 -0700
Subject: Re: First Aid vs. Medical.

> I think "First Aid" as a skill is a bad idea all together.  Use Medic for
> what  its for:
> 
>     Medic 0 -- Able to render First Aid
>     Medic 1 -- EMT/Nurse
>     Medic 2 -- Paramedic/RN
>     Medic 3 -- Doctor
>     Medic 4 -- Specialist
> Somebody please tell me we're not going back to this five tiered skill system again.  
This was probably the thing that damaged the original Traveller system in the first 
place.  It bit, chewed, sucked and just plain smelled bad.

I mean I'm all in favor of simplification but there comes a point when simplification 
goes way to far.  To say that there are only five grades of people doing medicine, 
computer programing or whatever is just plain wrong the world is more complicated than 
that and the game should relect that in such a way that it's easily role-playable.  
This five tiered system was the single reason that Traveller was a game you played in 
spite of the rules rather than because of them.  THe setting was probably the greatest 
sci-fi setting ever created, with only one personal exception of course, but the task 
resolution system stunk.

Derek Stanley

This oughta tick some people off.

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 08:32:16 -0700
Subject: Re: Spires

lewis@chara.gsu.edu wrote:
> 
> >And can anyone give me more, canon, knowledge on "Spires."  Here's the
> >debait my GM and I are having, hell its more like a heated argument.  He
> >feels that the Spiri were abandoned on Spires during the Long Night and that
> >their technology degraded to it's current level, TL2.  I on the other hand
> >bleive that the Spiri were transplanted there by the Ancients and have since
> >developed on their own.
> I don't think there is anymore canonical details about Spires.  One of
> my players just rolled up a character from Spires, so I have been
> thinking about it lately.  I assume it was an colony that regressed in
> the Long Night.  If they were transplanted by the Ancients that would
> make them a minor Human race, like the Vilani, Zhodani, Suerat, Geonee,
> etc.  POT never makes any reference to this, so I tend to assume it didn't happen.
> 
> Just what I think.
> Lewis

See I'm not so sure, that one line just rankles my sence of completion.  
Somethings not right there and i just can't put my finger on it.  Plus the 
place was originally red zoned (if you read the codes and right up) why would 
they do that if these were just poor unfortunate Solomani settlers.  Plus 
there's the reference to surface metal deposits.  Now if you're a settler 
from a highly advanced world that really doesn't matter, mining is something 
you've invented centuries ago.  However, if you're a developing culture, see 
the Aztecs, Maya and Inca, and you lack surface metals in any kind of 
quantity you're technology is going to stall out pretty quick and you'll be 
stuck at a lower tech level.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 12:06:52 -0400
Subject: Re: First Aid vs. Medical.

At 08:18 AM 6/11/96 -0700, you wrote:
>> I think "First Aid" as a skill is a bad idea all together.  Use Medic for
>> what  its for:
>> 
>>     Medic 0 -- Able to render First Aid
>>     Medic 1 -- EMT/Nurse
>>     Medic 2 -- Paramedic/RN
>>     Medic 3 -- Doctor
>>     Medic 4 -- Specialist
>> Somebody please tell me we're not going back to this five tiered skill
system again.  
>This was probably the thing that damaged the original Traveller system in
the first 
>place.  It bit, chewed, sucked and just plain smelled bad.
>
>I mean I'm all in favor of simplification but there comes a point when
simplification 
>goes way to far.  To say that there are only five grades of people doing
medicine, 
>computer programing or whatever is just plain wrong the world is more
complicated than 
>that and the game should relect that in such a way that it's easily
role-playable.  
>This five tiered system was the single reason that Traveller was a game you
played in 
>spite of the rules rather than because of them.  THe setting was probably
the greatest 
>sci-fi setting ever created, with only one personal exception of course,
but the task 
>resolution system stunk.

It isn't a five tiered system.  You can have a medic-8.  This would be like
the leader in bio-mechanics/bionics in todays society.    The point is CT
skill levels worked.  You could very well be a computer-8.  The point of
using descriptions to describe a level was to quantitate where a particular
person compares to a real world level.  Medic is the easiest skill because
there are licensed levels that compair to each level.  Brawling-0 means you
have been in a fight or two.  Brawling-1 = Hockey Player, Brawling-2
Amaturer Boxer, Brawling-3 WWF designated looser, Brawling-4 WWF designated
winner, Brawling-5 UCF champion, Brawling -6 Black belt etc.

Computer = 0 may mean you have one at home and can log onto AOL
Computer = 1 Means you know a little programing or means you have written 
             your own web page. Some formal training
Computer = 2 Equiv to a 4 year degree
Computer = 3 Equiv to a Masters degree
Computer = 4 Equiv to a Doctorate
Computer = 5 Subscribes to alt.2600
Computer = 8 Lives in the ethernet.

In Traveller, most highly skilled people will be at a skill level of 4.  Yes
there are a few that exceed this, but the norm, would have it at 4.

Now just what do these number mean to the role-playing game.  You take Dr.
Bob and EMT Carl out into the field for an adventure.  Mr. Pit Viper takes a
shot at their friend Motz.  Motz, of course is somewhat susceptable to the
venom of a pit viper.  Dr. Bob has about a 20% better chance to treat Motz
than does EMT Carl.  Both have good chance, Bob's is somewhat better.  Very
real world.

The numbers serve two purposes:  Let us apply the skill to an adventure
setting situation and let us quantativly describe the approximate level of
ability.  If you can do both with one number, it makes the game more
playable.  Having seperate First Aid and Medic, is like asking for seperate
Agility/Speed/Coordination/Dexterity stats.  If you want to emulate real
life, the numbers you would need to manipulate are more complex than a GAME
needs.  

Traveller isn't about real life.  Its about sci-fi role playing.  Its about
a game.  It doesn't matter if my laser carbine emits 23MegaJoules.  All the
game cares about is how much damage does it do in the end.  Do I hit?  How
much damage did I do?

What gaming advantage is to be had by breaking Medic into:

    First Aid
    Pharmocology
    Nursing
    Family Practice
    Toxicology
    Surgeon
    Cardiology
    Hemotology?

Every one of those specialties build upon previous knowledge.  A
Hemotologist has had the core training as the Family Practicioner.  They
have the same core as a Nurse, etc. etc.

Your computer neural network specialist has the same core abilities as your
4 year degreed business application programmer.  Tools may be different, but
the skill set is the same.  Both know more than the operator, but include
the operators core knowledge etc.

Rob



- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:19:30 -0800
Subject: Re: First Aid vs. Medical.

On 11 Jun 96 at 8:18, derek stanley spewed:

> 
> I mean I'm all in favor of simplification but there comes a point when simplification 
> goes way to far.  To say that there are only five grades of people doing medicine, 
> computer programing or whatever is just plain wrong the world is more complicated than 
> that and the game should relect that in such a way that it's easily role-playable.  

<Reality Check Mode ON>

Yes, but this isn't real life...

This is an RPG, which means it is little more than interactive story 
telling.  With all the nuts and bolts skill systems, all the "canon", 
all the the ships, vehicles, and so on designed down to the last nut 
and bolt, this is a game.  It is meant to be fun.  Yes, things have to 
make some sense, and have to build a coherent universe, but I don't 
think most people mind something that keeps it simple.

I come from a theater background originally.  The skills & ships 
discussions remind me sometimes of an early 20th century playwright and 
director named David Belasco.  Belasco was famous for bringing the 
ultimate in reality to his plays.  He tried to design slice of life 
sets and plays.  One of them (I can't remember which), opens with a 
sunrise, simulated with a few lighting tricks.  The problem is he 
simulated a sunrise in real time (i.e. the audience watched lighting 
behind the set simulate a sunrise for 10-15 minutes.  The audience 
was bored to tears.  Belasco was a flop who never could understand 
why his play failed...

I recognize that this analogy is going to be dismissed as irrelevant 
by a lot of people, but the more you complicate the rules system, the 
harder it will be for new players to get a handle on it, and 1 of the 
stated goals of T4 is to broaden the appeal.  I don't see the point 
in a 1st aid skill when there is a Medical skill.  Medical skill at a 
lower level really is nothing but 1st aid training.  At higher 
levels, what is 1st aid skill going to do for you?  Enable you to 
apply a tourniquet properly in 1.2 seconds as opposed to 10 seconds?  
Why complicate things needlessly? 

> This oughta tick some people off.

Probably, but then controversial ideas usually do.  :-)

Stu

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #80
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Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #81
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 11 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 081

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: Shionthy red zone
         2. Re: Jets
         3. First Aid is to specific
         4. Lester Smith's Other Work
         5. Re: First Aid vs. Medical.
         6. TNE (skills) vs. CT/MT
         7. Re: First Aid is to specific
         8. Re: First Aid vs. Medical.
         9. Re: First Aid vs. Medical.
        10. TNE (skills) vs. CT/MT
        11. Re: First Aid is to specific
        12. Re: First Aid vs. Medical.
        13. Re: Jet Trivia
        14. Re: First Aid is to specific

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 09:42:37 MST7
Subject: RE: Shionthy red zone

Glen Coffin says....

> Subject: Red Zone at Shionthy in the Spinward Marches
> 
> >From: matth <matth@ritz.mordor.com>
> 
> >Does anyone know why Shionthy is red zoned? 
> 
> I think that the explanation is in Adventure 1, The Kinunir.  The Shionthy
> system has a lot of "contra-terrene" matter, which I think is anti-matter.
> So it's very dangerous for ships.  Why it should be crime to put yourself in
> danger, I don't know. 

	Because the Imperium wants to protect it's only known antimatter 
'mine'?  Could make some pretty nifty bombs outta all that stuff, 
once you figure out how to manipulate it. (cg plates inside of a VERY 
well evacuated vaccum bottle?)

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

From: mike foy <musashi@norfolk.infi.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 12:59:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Jets

At 08:43 AM 6/11/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>
>
>On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, mike foy wrote:
>
>> The resources to this project if applied to the Ta-162 Volksfighter or the
>
>I hate to nit pick, but the Volksjaeger was the HE-162, not Ta, that was 
>the Ta-152, a further development of the FW-190 series, and a prop plane, 
>not a jet like the HE-162.  Though, as prop planes go, it was probably 
>one of the best in the world.
>
>> Me-262 programs would have been a better idea. The decision to keep the
>> Me-109 line going after 1942 instead of pusuing the Me-208 or FW-190 really
>
>What was the ME-208?  I'm not familiar with this particular model.
>

The Me-208 was a fighter prototype used to set the world-air speed record in
1941.
It was used a propaganda device. It was faster because it had no armour or
guns, and the Germans wanted everyone to believe it was so when it set the
record. However, the Luftwaffe did not have the brains or resources to
pursue production. Neither was the HE-100 or its follow ons. The Hungarians
I think flew a couple dozen production HE-100's. BTW, My favourite plane was
the Uhle, the 450mph twin engine night fighter.

Musashi

>+-----------------------------------------+
>:Al Lowe              sirdirk@xnet.com    :
>:HOMEPAGE at http://www.xnet.com/~sirdirk :
>: "I'd rather win nothing, than WIN95"    :
>+-----------------------------------------+
>
>
>



------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 12:10:55 -0500
Subject: First Aid is to specific

>From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
>Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 20:08:38 -0400 (EDT)
>Subject: First Aid vs. Medical.
>
>Okay.  You've convinced me.  In the next skill list, I'll make First Aid 
>and Medical separate.  I think we're getting a little too involved when 
>we start cascading farming into three or four subdivisions, though.
>
>Charles.

Please reconsider.  The skill list should be kept as short as possible.
For example if one charator has 'First Aid - 5' and a second charator 
has 'Medical - 1' which is the more skilled at healing??  

IMO 'Medical - 0' means the charator only has basic medical knowledge.
IE they can apply first aid only.

Also, I find breaking down aircraft skill into multi vers single engine
a little to far.  Perhaps you should break Revolver skill into 
'Single Action Revolver' vers 'Double Action Revolver' as well.

- -Daniel



------------------------------

From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 11 Jun 96 16:56:03 EDT
Subject: Lester Smith's Other Work

Yo Folkes,
  The IG web pages cites a number of previous achievements of
Lester Smith. However they have left out one that (I feel) beats
the rest and is very relevant to traveller:
       BUGHUNTERS.
  Anyone remember the "Amazing Engine" generic system brought
out by TSR? No? Well, they only brought out 5 universe packs
and it has never been seen since. Some good idea, but well...
  Anyway, BUGHUNTERS was one of the universe packs. It is sort
of a "Aliens - The Role Playing Game - Done Right". Ever see
the Aliens role playing game? It sucked. Great if you were into
intricate combat stuff. Completely dry for role-playing.
  BUGHUNTERS is amazing. Sort of SF-Horror. Big, tough PCs fighing
amazingly nasty aliens. Sounds like tripe but everything is
extremely well justified in the DMs section. An intergalactic
plot to rival Cuthulu.

  If you see it anywhere cheap, get it. It is great source
material for ideas. As for use in Traveller, well in the Early
Solomani expansion it was kind of them-against-the-universe.
Also they used a lot of genetic alteration and birth labs which
figure in BUGHUNTERS.
  It would be cool to see Lester Smith's talents in this area
brought to bear on a future milieu supplement for the early 
Solomani Years. Glad to see him on board.

  Check it out.

              Jo Grant

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 10:55:09 -0700
Subject: Re: First Aid vs. Medical.

> It isn't a five tiered system.  You can have a medic-8.  This would be like
> the leader in bio-mechanics/bionics in todays society.    The point is CT
> skill levels worked.  You could very well be a computer-8.  The point of
> using descriptions to describe a level was to quantitate where a particular
> person compares to a real world level.  Medic is the easiest skill because
> there are licensed levels that compair to each level.  Brawling-0 means you
> have been in a fight or two.  Brawling-1 = Hockey Player, Brawling-2
> Amaturer Boxer, Brawling-3 WWF designated looser, Brawling-4 WWF designated
> winner, Brawling-5 UCF champion, Brawling -6 Black belt etc.

Having grown up in Canada I'll contest that Brawling-1 = Hockey Player.  It's 
probably more like Brawling 5 in some cases. 8^)  TIGER! TIGER! TIGER!  (Sorry)
 
> Computer = 0 may mean you have one at home and can log onto AOL

Ewww.  In the future we'll still have to deal with AOL?

> Computer = 1 Means you know a little programing or means you have written
>              your own web page. Some formal training
> Computer = 2 Equiv to a 4 year degree
> Computer = 3 Equiv to a Masters degree
> Computer = 4 Equiv to a Doctorate
> Computer = 5 Subscribes to alt.2600
> Computer = 8 Lives in the ethernet.
> 
> In Traveller, most highly skilled people will be at a skill level of 4.  Yes
> there are a few that exceed this, but the norm, would have it at 4.

Remind me, it's been years.  These skills are they tied in any way to your 
physical attributes?

> Now just what do these number mean to the role-playing game.  You take Dr.
> Bob and EMT Carl out into the field for an adventure.  Mr. Pit Viper takes a
> shot at their friend Motz.  Motz, of course is somewhat susceptable to the
> venom of a pit viper.  Dr. Bob has about a 20% better chance to treat Motz
> than does EMT Carl.  Both have good chance, Bob's is somewhat better.  Very
> real world.

> The numbers serve two purposes:  Let us apply the skill to an adventure
> setting situation and let us quantativly describe the approximate level of
> ability.  If you can do both with one number, it makes the game more
> playable.  Having seperate First Aid and Medic, is like asking for seperate
> Agility/Speed/Coordination/Dexterity stats.  If you want to emulate real
> life, the numbers you would need to manipulate are more complex than a GAME
> needs.

Actually Harn Master, a good game in its own rights does have a seperate 
Agility Dex and Speed skill.  Agility refers to your physical prowess, 
dexterity refers to your motor manipulation skills (eye/hand) and speed, well 
speed is speed.  Speed and agil may not differ by more than 5 points I think.
 
> Traveller isn't about real life.  Its about sci-fi role playing.  Its about
> a game.  It doesn't matter if my laser carbine emits 23MegaJoules.  All the
> game cares about is how much damage does it do in the end.  Do I hit?  How
> much damage did I do?

Actually it does, the amount of energy determines the damage.
 
> What gaming advantage is to be had by breaking Medic into:
> 
>     First Aid
>     Pharmocology
>     Nursing
>     Family Practice
>     Toxicology
>     Surgeon
>     Cardiology
>     Hemotology?
> 
> Every one of those specialties build upon previous knowledge.  A
> Hemotologist has had the core training as the Family Practicioner.  They
> have the same core as a Nurse, etc. etc.
> 
> Your computer neural network specialist has the same core abilities as your
> 4 year degreed business application programmer.  Tools may be different, but
> the skill set is the same.  Both know more than the operator, but include
> the operators core knowledge etc.
> 
> Rob

I'm not advocating breaking up every skill into a thousand and one cascades, 
although cascades are great because they improve the general abilities of the 
character all over while allowing for that specialization in a single field.  I 
agree a computer programer has to know how to operate the machine.  THe point 
that I was getting at is in order for the task system to more accurately 
refelct things the tasks have to be tied into the attributes that's simple but 
it accurately reflects real life, some people are just naturally better at 
things than others are.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 10:59:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: TNE (skills) vs. CT/MT

Thus spake Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>:

> On Sun, 9 Jun 1996, Wes Payne wrote:

[snip]

> > task attempt.  Naturally there are some things I'd change (such as 
> > Strength being the major factor in marksmanship), but I feel that, when 
> > compared to CT and MT, it offers the best balance of character detail, 
> > task detail, and ease of use.
>  
>   I'm divided on this. Their rationale for strength with slug weapons
> makes _some_ sense, but surely the benefits of strength are already paying
> dividends in reducing recoil effects. I'd be comfortable with AGL as the
> controlling attribute for _any_ ranged weapon.

Strength helps in controlling recoil, definitely, but there are other 
factors in marksmanship, such as hand-eye coordination and depth 
perception that do not depend on how strong the firer is.  At least, 
that's been my players' gripe.  I've been trying to come up with some 
sort of compromise like a separate Marksmanship attribute derived from 
the character's Strength and Agility.
 
[snip]
 
> > Obviously, pre-generated characters are out.  Who wants to run someone 
> > else's character?  However, you might try what other RPG systems refer to 
> > as archetypes (I first ran into this while playing Mechwarrior).  One can 
> > prioritize what they feel is most important for their character (such as 
> > skills, starting equipment, or other advantages).  These choices will 
> > lead to a list of what types of skills the character will have, and at 
> > what levels.  A possible example:  I want a former military character 
> 
>    This is interesting. Are you thinking of the Shadowrun style priority
> system? It's a good idea for an *optional* quick character generatuon
> system. Say, allow players to choose between stats, skills, resources
> (money, social, equipment), maybe even important contacts. This way
> players just prioritize and select what stats/skills they want, with an
> appropriate age assigned by the referee based on the type of character and
> skill base.

I definitely propose it as an optional character generation system, sort 
of like the simplified "FF&S Lite" Plug-n-Play system for quickly 
designing starships that's being hammered out.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 11:01:36 -0700
Subject: Re: First Aid is to specific

> Please reconsider.  The skill list should be kept as short as possible.
> For example if one charator has 'First Aid - 5' and a second charator
> has 'Medical - 1' which is the more skilled at healing??
> 
> IMO 'Medical - 0' means the charator only has basic medical knowledge.
> IE they can apply first aid only.
> 
> Also, I find breaking down aircraft skill into multi vers single engine
> a little to far.  Perhaps you should break Revolver skill into
> 'Single Action Revolver' vers 'Double Action Revolver' as well.

The whole argument here is related to the TNE skill system.  Medical and 
First aid were two different thing.  First aid implied trauma aid, being 
able to patch people up and we must admit there are some extremely skilled 
Paramedics there, but lets face it a paramedic would never even consider 
operating on a patient.  That's where medical comes in.  To say that all 
Paramedics are the same is a gross simplification and in turn to say that 
in order to become a doctor you had to progress though the Paramedic stage 
is also just plain wrong.  They're two completely sepearte careers.  
Granted a doctor understands trauma aid, but lets face it he's used to 
dealing with things that are generally very different than what the average 
medic encounters.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 11:13:41 -0700
Subject: Re: First Aid vs. Medical.

> <Reality Check Mode ON>

Ouch that hurts...
 
> Yes, but this isn't real life...

I realize that what I'm arguing for is a more realistic uinverse that is 
still playable.
 
> This is an RPG, which means it is little more than interactive story
> telling.  With all the nuts and bolts skill systems, all the "canon",
> all the the ships, vehicles, and so on designed down to the last nut
> and bolt, this is a game.  It is meant to be fun.  Yes, things have to
> make some sense, and have to build a coherent universe, but I don't
> think most people mind something that keeps it simple.

But there comes a point where simple is too simple.

[snip]
> The problem is he
> simulated a sunrise in real time (i.e. the audience watched lighting
> behind the set simulate a sunrise for 10-15 minutes.  The audience
> was bored to tears.  Belasco was a flop who never could understand
> why his play failed...

Cool...  If the play was at all interesting in the first place shouldn't 
the audience have been able to get past that.  I gather nothing was 
happening during the sunrise upon re-reading the statement.  Okay, yawn 
not so cool.
 
> I recognize that this analogy is going to be dismissed as irrelevant
> by a lot of people, but the more you complicate the rules system, the
> harder it will be for new players to get a handle on it, and 1 of the
> stated goals of T4 is to broaden the appeal.  I don't see the point
> in a 1st aid skill when there is a Medical skill.  Medical skill at a
> lower level really is nothing but 1st aid training.  At higher
> levels, what is 1st aid skill going to do for you?  Enable you to
> apply a tourniquet properly in 1.2 seconds as opposed to 10 seconds?
> Why complicate things needlessly?

I agree there has to be some kind of happy medium between skill cascades 
and just getting to far gone.  A new skill has to make sence.  How much 
difference is there between flying a single engine plane and multiple 
engine plane?  Personally I don't know but I'd imagine there's just two 
throttles to watch and duplicate RMP etc. gages.  Is there a difference 
between a Paramedic and a Doctor or is a Paramedic just a Doctor who 
couldn't make it.  Here I think there is a difference.  To say that a 
paramedic is just a poor excuse for a doctor is wrong, there are 
paramedics out there who are far better than doctors but they're dealing 
with something else, something other than what the average doctor 
experiences.  Pulling out an appendix and treating a gunshot wound where 
the kid is in the process of bleeding to death are two totally different 
experiences and I don't think the average doctor has ever had to deal 
with that.  Some yes but most no.

Derek Stanley

 
> > This oughta tick some people off.
> 
> Probably, but then controversial ideas usually do.  :-)
> 
> Stu

------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:34:26 -0400
Subject: Re: First Aid vs. Medical.

At 10:55 AM 6/11/96 -0700, Derek wrote:
>> Amaturer Boxer, Brawling-3 WWF designated looser, Brawling-4 WWF designated
>> winner, Brawling-5 UCF champion, Brawling -6 Black belt etc.
>
>Having grown up in Canada I'll contest that Brawling-1 = Hockey Player.  It's 
>probably more like Brawling 5 in some cases. 8^)  TIGER! TIGER! TIGER!  (Sorry)

:-)
 
>Remind me, it's been years.  These skills are they tied in any way to your 
>physical attributes?

TNE tied them to skills, as such that it was: (Skill + Stat) * Difficulty >= D20

CT allowed some pluses to the skill role for high strength and dex on some 
skill checks.  2D6+Skill+DMs >= 3+ Routine, 8+ Average 11+ Difficult, 15+
Formidable

MT added 1/5 of your attributes as a DM to the check, and the values were
somewhat different (acutally the ones above may very well be MT levels ....)

Someone did some stats and the TNE and CT success chances were not too far
off from each other, however, TNE definatly deflated the value of a skill
because stats made up most of the roll.  CT stats may modify the roll, but
it is the 
skill and the difficulty that is important.  So if you have a -3 to your
archery skill because you have never used one before, you have a good chance
of messing up.


>I'm not advocating breaking up every skill into a thousand and one cascades, 
>although cascades are great because they improve the general abilities of the 
>character all over while allowing for that specialization in a single
field.  I 
>agree a computer programer has to know how to operate the machine.  

Cascades are fine, but makeing them seperate skills is looney.  I like
cascades. In fact a good way to Cascade Medic would be:

Medic (Cascade: Emergancy, Obstetrics, Pharmacology, Internal, Orthapedics)

Your levels can mean different things again.  With a Obstetrics specialty
and a skill level of 2, you might be a mid-wife.  Obstetrics-4 would make
you a doctor who can deliver babys, and your emergancy medicine abilites may
be a 2.

>THe point 
>that I was getting at is in order for the task system to more accurately 
>refelct things the tasks have to be tied into the attributes that's simple but 
>it accurately reflects real life, some people are just naturally better at 
>things than others are.

Some people are, but you cant say that Joe with his Int of 12 is going to be
a talented Computer Programmer and because his Int is 12, he is also going
to be a talanted biologist.  Attributes are good for things that are common
to a lot of things like using Int to look for clues (frankly an observation
isnt a skill but a function of intellegence -- another argument for another
day.  I have never seen a "Observation Class" offered at a school).  You can
train skills, natural ability is the attributes.  Let the attributes modify
the skills, but don't make the skills modify the attributes.

Example:  Joe Int 12, Computer-4, and Will, Int 8, and Computer-4.  Both
have the same training and experience with Computers, but a problem shows
up, Joe should have an edge over Will, but 4 points worth because that says
that Joe with a computer-0 and an Int 12 is equal to the training and
experience of Wills Computer-4, that isn't real.


Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:38:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: TNE (skills) vs. CT/MT

On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Wes Payne wrote:

> Thus spake Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>:
> >    This is interesting. Are you thinking of the Shadowrun style priority
> > system? It's a good idea for an *optional* quick character generatuon
> > system. Say, allow players to choose between stats, skills, resources
> > (money, social, equipment), maybe even important contacts. This way
> > players just prioritize and select what stats/skills they want, with an
> > appropriate age assigned by the referee based on the type of character and
> > skill base.
> 
> I definitely propose it as an optional character generation system, sort 
> of like the simplified "FF&S Lite" Plug-n-Play system for quickly 
> designing starships that's being hammered out.

   Sold! I'll work out a few ideas, while you do the same. We can post
notes to the list for criticism and comments. <g>

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:41:07 -0400
Subject: Re: First Aid is to specific

At 11:01 AM 6/11/96 -0700, Derek wrote:
>The whole argument here is related to the TNE skill system.  Medical and 
>First aid were two different thing.  First aid implied trauma aid, being 
>able to patch people up and we must admit there are some extremely skilled 
>Paramedics there, but lets face it a paramedic would never even consider 
>operating on a patient.  That's where medical comes in.  To say that all 
>Paramedics are the same is a gross simplification and in turn to say that 
>in order to become a doctor you had to progress though the Paramedic stage 
>is also just plain wrong.  They're two completely sepearte careers.  
>Granted a doctor understands trauma aid, but lets face it he's used to 
>dealing with things that are generally very different than what the average 
>medic encounters.

I have had several friends whos career was:  Life Guard > EMT > Paramedic >
Med School.  This is not an unrealistic progression of events.  Now most
doctors go straight to school to become a doctor and most have to live in
the ER for a while.  The point is that a doctor has been trained (at the
point he was a medic-2 to have the same medical skills as a paramedic)  The
skill system is not saying you progress through these stages.  In fact if
you look at High Guard Navy Doctor generation, you are a Medic-3, no
progression.  You have trained for  four years solid and have a Medic-3 to
show for it.

CT as it stands does a pretty good job at imitating life while keeping it
simple and playable.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: farrarb@vnet.net
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:53:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: First Aid vs. Medical.

I've been reading this debate back and forth for awhile, and I've got 
some thoughts on it.

First of all, I recognize that in RL (and quite possibly in RPG, too) 
Doctor and Paramedics are *different* things.  If was in a party that was 
in a lot of fights, I'd want a paramedic around. After all, i want to 
live to visit the doctor.  Not that a doctor can't do those same things, 
if he is the right kind of doctor (so your a podiatrist....can you take 
out a bullet?)

In game terms, though, and as a GM, I've constantly got to answer the 
players questions about there skills...where do *I* draw the line?  What 
do I allow this skill to do?  I'd hate for a player to die, because of 
the way i interpret the rules (sorry, you don't have medical/first aid, 
and thought you have the other...you can't use it....).  

So here's how I use these skills.   I try to determine *how bad off* the 
character is. For the case of light wounds, i don't sweat it.  Usually a 
first-aid-0 or a Medical-0 will take care of this...(ie most ppl know a 
little, and if we assume these are mostly military charactes, well, *I'd* 
make it my business to know...)  If the wound is moderate to bad, i'll 
let first aid stabalize the character, but he'll need further treatment 
by someone who has 'medical'.  By my normal interpretation, I'll let 
medical treat it, but it's not a 'first aid' type of treatment...it will 
be more difficult and take longer to use the skill(that is a full 
treatment takes longer than, here's a bandage, we'll get you to a doctor.), 
unless the same player has both skills.

By this I mean that Medical allows you to actually treat the wound, fix 
the problem, etc. If firstaid has been applied, then it is easier to 
apply the medical (heal time may just as long).  First Aid's main purpose 
is to stabalize, and let the character survive long enought to see a doctor.

So they aren't exact replacements for each other....As a player, or a 
group, I'd want a couple of people with first-aid, maybe at moderate 
levels -1, or -2, who could fix immediat problems (maybe bringing a 
player back into a fight, or allowing him to escape) and a Medical-3, to 
sew 'em up when they get home (and this could easily be an NPC)

This would give the PC's the option to have other skills...besides a big 
medical skill, while still knowing that they saved their own butts (which 
is always a gratifying experience:)

bill
farrarb@vnet.net


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 12:01:18 -0800
Subject: Re: Jet Trivia

On 11 Jun 96 at 8:31, Albert Lowe spewed:

> 
> 
> On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Jamie Young wrote:
> 
> > >Trivia fact.  The Komet was test flown by a woman.  Can't remember her name
> > >though, they found it rather difficult to get male volountiers to test fly
> > >the thing.  This was all of the original test flights, not just one.
> > 
> > Hannah Reich (?)
> 

Reisch, I believe.  Later became famous for landing a Fieseler Storch 
on the Unter den Linden during the last days of the war in Berlin, 
through Russian air superiority, flak, and heavy shelling.  Did it to 
fly in a general to be decorated for something...

Stu

P.S.  Is it me or does days of discussion of the ME 163 seem just a 
bit off topic?  :-)

 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Matthew McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:28:06 -0600
Subject: Re: First Aid is to specific

derek stanley wrote:
> 
> > Please reconsider.  The skill list should be kept as short as possible.
> > For example if one charator has 'First Aid - 5' and a second charator
> > has 'Medical - 1' which is the more skilled at healing??
> >
> > IMO 'Medical - 0' means the charator only has basic medical knowledge.
> > IE they can apply first aid only.
> >
> > Also, I find breaking down aircraft skill into multi vers single engine
> > a little to far.  Perhaps you should break Revolver skill into
> > 'Single Action Revolver' vers 'Double Action Revolver' as well.
> 
I basically agree with the above.  While there are differences, we need a
certain level of generality for playability.  Maybe require specialization
above a certain skill level.  After all, no matter _how_many_ skills you 
add, your will _never_ please everyone.  Leave something for the ref!

> The whole argument here is related to the TNE skill system.  Medical and
> First aid were two different thing.  First aid implied trauma aid, being
> able to patch people up and we must admit there are some extremely skilled
> Paramedics there, but lets face it a paramedic would never even consider
> operating on a patient.  That's where medical comes in.  To say that all
> Paramedics are the same is a gross simplification and in turn to say that
> in order to become a doctor you had to progress though the Paramedic stage
> is also just plain wrong.  They're two completely sepearte careers.
> Granted a doctor understands trauma aid, but lets face it he's used to
> dealing with things that are generally very different than what the average
> medic encounters.
> 
> Derek Stanley

So where would a battlefield medic come in?  Or an independant duty corpsman?
Man, you should see one of _those_ guys in action; I had one stitch up a
(small) cut artery in my leg, and the same guy did some moderately serious
work on a messed up shoulder where a guy had landed on the end of a pipe 
during some heavy rolls at periscope depth.  The doctor on shore (about a
month later) opened it up, said he couldn't have done much better, and closed
it up.  These guys do appendectimies (sp?) and pull teeth.  Point is, he'd
probably be a 1st aid 3, but he's approaching the skills of a doctor,
at least in terms which would be practical for most games (patching up
combat damage).  Furthermore, there's not much else for this guy to do short
of being a doctor with gaining of more skill levels. 

Personally, I think some of these 3 and 4 layer deep hierarchies of skills
 are one more intimidating complication which may scare away new players.  
Chances are that anyone who want's this detail will be modifying it in-house
anyway.  There's also the minor point that it's easier to expand it later when
we have a sane amount of time available than it is to properly optimize a more
extensive list under the deadlines that IG's got.  Let's keep the basic T4 
simple, and let additions be published as supplements.

Matt McL

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #81
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 11 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 082

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Jet Trivia
         2. On Skills
         3. Medic skill
         4. Re: Int + Edu - knickers
         5. RPG skills vs. Real Life (was: First Aid vs. Medical)
         6. Re: Medic skill
         7. Lester Smith's Other Work
         8. Re: High Roleplaying
         9. Re: On Skills
        10. Re: First Aid vs. Medical.
        11. Re: First Aid vs. Medical.
        12. Re: RPG skills vs. Real Life (was: First Aid vs. Medical)
        13. Re: Skill Specialization
        14. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #63
        15. Re: design system: fundemental suggestion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Albert Lowe <sirdirk@xnet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 15:05:35 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Jet Trivia

On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> P.S.  Is it me or does days of discussion of the ME 163 seem just a 
> bit off topic?  :-)

No, it's not just you.  We are slightly off topic, so STOP IT!! ;-)
(just kidding).


+-----------------------------------------+
:Al Lowe              sirdirk@xnet.com    :
:HOMEPAGE at http://www.xnet.com/~sirdirk :
: "I'd rather win nothing, than WIN95"    :
+-----------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 16:07:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: On Skills

As a long time referee, if I have the need for a skill not in the rules, I
MAKE IT UP.  You see, its my game , I can do that :)

We dont needa published list of 500+ skills, we need a playable, managable
list of skills that referees can add to/delete from as the need arises.

Yes, this is just my .02 credits worth.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 16:34:45 -0400
Subject: Medic skill

Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com> writes:
[snip] 
> I must have missed something.  All posts I have seen have been in favor of
> "First Aid" == medic 1.  That is the Traveller Way.  I can't possiably see
> some one with First Aid-4 having a better chance to fix someone than a
> Doctor which is defined in CT as Medic-3.  
[snip]
> I think "First Aid" as a skill is a bad idea all together.  Use Medic for
> what  its for:
>     Medic 0 -- Able to render First Aid
>     Medic 1 -- EMT/Nurse
>     Medic 2 -- Paramedic/RN
>     Medic 3 -- Doctor
>     Medic 4 -- Specialist

  I agree.  I would also suggest that Medic-0 be a default skill for anyone
with military/Law Enforcement/Scout background.
  Medic-1 would be a good entry for a background skill table.

  Wasn't Medic-5 Surgeon?


- -- 
 Mark Urbin eclipse@ultranet.com  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy 
spot on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
Opinions are MINE!  All Mine!  Bwwwaaaahhhh!

------------------------------

From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@Mail.Bostaden.Umea.SE>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:31:16 +1
Subject: Re: Int + Edu - knickers

>From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>

So. We meet again. ;-)

>The Int + Edu skill limit was complete rubbish!

Amen. ;-)

In fact, in point-based games (like Gurps &c) I tend to go the 
opposite direction. That is, I don't allow characters with too *few* 
skills. Makes a lot more sense to me. (Did I mention that my players 
hate me? ;-)

- --
| Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se          | I am a number,  |
| 100342.3455@compuserve.com - jonask@io.com | not a man! - 42 |

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 20:44:25 GMT
Subject: RPG skills vs. Real Life (was: First Aid vs. Medical)

Skill cascades and specializations generally follow suit with how useful or
important those skills are to the RPG itself.  I'm sure that there are those out
there that would admit that Medical-1 probably covers more "learned knowledge"
than Slug Pistol-1 (or *all* of Firearms-1, for that matter).  Since combat
seems to be an essential part of most RPGs, however (they do-- after all-- have
their own dedicated rules section), the skills pertaining to the different
aspects of ranged weapon combat must be broken down to allow players more
choices.

This is quite obvious with the TNE cascading skills of Pilot, Energy Weapon,
Slug Weapon, Medical, Armed Martial Arts, Gunnery, Screens, Ground Vehicle,
Music, and Muscle Transport.  Except for the last two, these skills can all be
interpreted as potential combat skills, representing what most people view as
*exciting* in an RPG.  Their break-down gives these players more choices with
regards with character creation and tactics during play.

Skills such as Electronics-1 and Mechanics-1 cover even more "information" than
Medical-1 due to the fact that the human body doesn't come out with new models
every few years or so.  We don't ask for cascades for "microchip design",
"fibre-optic repair", or "hydrocarbon engine repair" because these skills aren't
as central to RPGs (in general) as are Combat or Starship skills in a game like
Traveller.  How about the Physical Sciences?  Most people would state after
attaining their PhD that these skills could likewise be broken down into
cascading sub-skills.

I once had an argument with a fellow that played a historical boardgame that
depicted the European theater during WWII (ETO).  I was playing Avalon Hill's
Advanced 3rd Reich (A3R) at the time and this guy was trying to tell me that A3R
wasn't realistic because it took several liberties to keep a campaign game
(1939-1945+) from taking any longer than 24-36 hours to complete.  His new
version of ETO (which he was working on to submit as Advanced ETO or ETO 2nd
Edition) was much more complicated and I was told it took over 100+ hours to
playout the same time frame!

The amount of detail in any role-playing game is directly proportional to how
long it takes to play out certain situations (most commonly, Combat).  I prefer
a game with a simpler combat system, that takes a *few* liberties at the expense
of realism, all for the sake of keeping the combat situation FLUID.  If a two
minute combat takes three hours to role-play, it is no longer realistic from a
certain perspective.  The hard part is drawing the line; there will always be
players on both sides.  Perhaps there is call for a backwards-compatible,
advanced character generation & interaction rules set like the FF&S lite rules
going on at Mr. Golden's web page?

------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 16:49:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Medic skill

At 04:34 PM 6/11/96 -0400, Mark Urbin wrote:
>
>  Wasn't Medic-5 Surgeon?

The little black books say that a Dex of 8+ was needed to be a surgeon.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: Jo Grant/DUB/Lotus <Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus.LOTUSINT@crd.lotus.com>
Date: 11 Jun 96 16:56:03 EDT
Subject: Lester Smith's Other Work

Yo Folkes,
  The IG web pages cites a number of previous achievements of
Lester Smith. However they have left out one that (I feel) beats
the rest and is very relevant to traveller:
       BUGHUNTERS.
  Anyone remember the "Amazing Engine" generic system brought
out by TSR? No? Well, they only brought out 5 universe packs
and it has never been seen since. Some good idea, but well...
  Anyway, BUGHUNTERS was one of the universe packs. It is sort
of a "Aliens - The Role Playing Game - Done Right". Ever see
the Aliens role playing game? It sucked. Great if you were into
intricate combat stuff. Completely dry for role-playing.
  BUGHUNTERS is amazing. Sort of SF-Horror. Big, tough PCs fighing
amazingly nasty aliens. Sounds like tripe but everything is
extremely well justified in the DMs section. An intergalactic
plot to rival Cuthulu.

  If you see it anywhere cheap, get it. It is great source
material for ideas. As for use in Traveller, well in the Early
Solomani expansion it was kind of them-against-the-universe.
Also they used a lot of genetic alteration and birth labs which
figure in BUGHUNTERS.
  It would be cool to see Lester Smith's talents in this area
brought to bear on a future milieu supplement for the early 
Solomani Years. Glad to see him on board.

  Check it out.

              Jo Grant

------------------------------

From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@Mail.Bostaden.Umea.SE>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:54:37 +1
Subject: Re: High Roleplaying

> From: Hugh Foster <100326.446@CompuServe.COM>
> Hi Jonas!

Hi WarDog! ;-)
Fancy meeting you here...

> This works well if your players are, in fact, good roleplayers. However, there
> are cases where players enjoy playing the game, enjoy "being there" and
> interacting with the environment of the Imperium, but never really develop
> differing character personalities.

Right. For the longest time one of my pals played the same character 
in most games, irrespective of genre. (Well, in Fantasy games he 
usually had magic...) We had a lot of fun, but there wasn't much 
personality involved. ;-)

[SNIP]
> But high RP of the type you describe just doesn't happen. Our guys
> aren't natural actors - but they love gaming.

Absolutely, just trying to be over-obvious. ;-) <Looks around to see 
noone hears me write this> Actually, I tend to get irritated at the 
High Roleplayers among my friends. At least when they bog down the 
game with acting out every [CENSORED] minor encounter they have for 
hours and hours... ;-)

> This is where skills like Liaison and Persuasion and Trader and so on come in.
> If a player weaves a skilled, well roleplayed depiction of the things his
> character says and does to persuade someone or something, I'll perhaps just
> check he _has_ the appropriate skill - and then adjudicate the results on the
> value of the RPing.
[SNIP]
> They're also useful in the rare cases where someone is playing a
> stated bonehead marine or thug pirate who has markedly _less_ social
> skills than the player can depict - or if the character is
> struggling with a foreign language.

Hmm. Think I need to upgrade my Oratory skill,  'cause, you know, 
you put it a lot better. ;-) That is, the above is pretty much the 
way I run things. Guess I got overwrought at the thought of 
such useful tools as social skills being wrested from my hands. ;-)

(Btw. I'm past hurdle one, job-wise. Now for the final interview day 
after tomorrow. Big corps seem to take their interviewing a lot more 
seriously than the two-bit outfit I used to work for. ;-)

- --
| Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se          | I am a number,  |
| 100342.3455@compuserve.com - jonask@io.com | not a man! - 42 |

------------------------------

From: Albert Lowe <sirdirk@xnet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 15:53:45 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: On Skills

On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Tom Ellis wrote:

> As a long time referee, if I have the need for a skill not in the rules, I
> MAKE IT UP.  You see, its my game , I can do that :)
> 
> We dont needa published list of 500+ skills, we need a playable, managable
> list of skills that referees can add to/delete from as the need arises.
> 
> Yes, this is just my .02 credits worth.

As a long time GM myself, I have to agree on this.  If the skill isn't 
there, think of a name, how it works, and --poof--!! It's there.

+-----------------------------------------+
:Al Lowe              sirdirk@xnet.com    :
:HOMEPAGE at http://www.xnet.com/~sirdirk :
: "I'd rather win nothing, than WIN95"    :
+-----------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:16:17 -0700
Subject: Re: First Aid vs. Medical.

> >probably more like Brawling 5 in some cases. 8^)  TIGER! TIGER! TIGER!  (Sorry)

Ah Tiger Williams.  When was the last time someone rode around the rink on his 
stick after scoring a goal?
 
> TNE tied them to skills, as such that it was: (Skill + Stat) * Difficulty >= D20

> CT allowed some pluses to the skill role for high strength and dex on some
> skill checks.  2D6+Skill+DMs >= 3+ Routine, 8+ Average 11+ Difficult, 15+
> Formidable
> 
> MT added 1/5 of your attributes as a DM to the check, and the values were
> somewhat different (acutally the ones above may very well be MT levels ....)

I can live with the MT idea, still like the TNE idea better though.
 
> Medic (Cascade: Emergancy, Obstetrics, Pharmacology, Internal, Orthapedics)
> 
> Your levels can mean different things again.  With a Obstetrics specialty
> and a skill level of 2, you might be a mid-wife.  Obstetrics-4 would make
> you a doctor who can deliver babys, and your emergancy medicine abilites may
> be a 2.

Perhaps its just the descriptions of skill levels that are really getting under 
my skin.  I like the cascade as I've said before.  Those descriptions of skill 
levels bother me for some reason, don't know why, they just do.
 
> Some people are, but you cant say that Joe with his Int of 12 is going to be
> a talented Computer Programmer and because his Int is 12, he is also going
> to be a talanted biologist.  Attributes are good for things that are common
> to a lot of things like using Int to look for clues (frankly an observation
> isnt a skill but a function of intellegence -- another argument for another
> day.  I have never seen a "Observation Class" offered at a school).  You can
> train skills, natural ability is the attributes.  Let the attributes modify
> the skills, but don't make the skills modify the attributes.
> 
> Example:  Joe Int 12, Computer-4, and Will, Int 8, and Computer-4.  Both
> have the same training and experience with Computers, but a problem shows
> up, Joe should have an edge over Will, but 4 points worth because that says
> that Joe with a computer-0 and an Int 12 is equal to the training and
> experience of Wills Computer-4, that isn't real.

To true.  Never did like that either, but lets face it what are the odds of 
having an Int of 12?  Slim and none and Slim just left town.  I think that using 
the governing attribute to modify the skill shows inate ability.  That certian 
something that some people just have.  Lets face it we all know someone who's been 
told the correct way of doing something a thousand times and still can't do it 
right and we all know someone who gets told once and knows for the rest of their 
life.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:23:21 -0700
Subject: Re: First Aid vs. Medical.

farrarb@vnet.net wrote:
> First of all, I recognize that in RL (and quite possibly in RPG, too)
> Doctor and Paramedics are *different* things.  If was in a party that was
> in a lot of fights, I'd want a paramedic around. After all, i want to
> live to visit the doctor.  Not that a doctor can't do those same things,
> if he is the right kind of doctor (so your a podiatrist....can you take
> out a bullet?)

That's what I've been getting at.
 
> In game terms, though, and as a GM, I've constantly got to answer the
> players questions about there skills...where do *I* draw the line?  What
> do I allow this skill to do?  I'd hate for a player to die, because of
> the way i interpret the rules (sorry, you don't have medical/first aid,
> and thought you have the other...you can't use it....).

Truly we all hate to have players die because they don't have the right 
skills for a job.  That's where the cascade comes in.  A person with medical 
gets first aid and vice-versa. 
 
> By this I mean that Medical allows you to actually treat the wound, fix
> the problem, etc. If firstaid has been applied, then it is easier to
> apply the medical (heal time may just as long).  First Aid's main purpose
> is to stabalize, and let the character survive long enought to see a 
> doctor.

This is what I feel, first aid is used to stabilize a patient, medical us 
used to fix the patient.  Because they are both cascades of medical a doctor 
can stabilize a patient and an EMT can in a pinch preform minor surgery.

> This would give the PC's the option to have other skills...besides a big
> medical skill, while still knowing that they saved their own butts (which
> is always a gratifying experience:)

There's nothing like giving them the illusion of power and safty.  
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!  Sorry, sorry.  Won't happen again.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: Matthew McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 16:31:43 -0600
Subject: Re: RPG skills vs. Real Life (was: First Aid vs. Medical)

James Lindsay wrote:
> 
> Skill cascades and specializations generally follow suit with how useful or
> important those skills are to the RPG itself.  I'm sure that there are those out
> there that would admit that Medical-1 probably covers more "learned knowledge"
> than Slug Pistol-1 (or *all* of Firearms-1, for that matter).  

Then again, there are those who would admit no such thing. :)

[SNIP!]
> The amount of detail in any role-playing game is directly proportional to how
> long it takes to play out certain situations (most commonly, Combat).  I prefer
> a game with a simpler combat system, that takes a *few* liberties at the expense
> of realism, all for the sake of keeping the combat situation FLUID.  If a two
> minute combat takes three hours to role-play, it is no longer realistic from a
> certain perspective. 

Nor is it fun!  (All right, all right, IMHO on that. ;) )

> The hard part is drawing the line; there will always be
> players on both sides.  Perhaps there is call for a backwards-compatible,
> advanced character generation & interaction rules set like the FF&S lite rules
> going on at Mr. Golden's web page?

hmmm... Welllll..., MAYbe, _if_ enough time is taken to develop it in depth.


Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:28:29 +0200
Subject: Re: Skill Specialization

Derek Stanley responded to Rob Prior:

>>One of the things I've noticed is that people seem to be advocating increased
>>skill specialization/differentiation in areas that they know a lot about.
>>
>>All of these choices sound logical, and after all as a society we trust
>>experts, but...

Basically, I agree with Derek that the real world is becoming more and more
complex and a single person will understand only a shrinking part of it.
People have to become experts in there niches.

However, Traveller is a game and so it should (at leat IMHO) be no mirror of
society but abstact from the real world focussing only imporant issues.

Probably the main reason for the success of fantasy roleplaying games set in
pseudo Middle Ages against science fiction system is their simplicity.

>>Adventurers must be _generalists_, because they will have to adapt to
>>different situations, equipment, and so on!

And otherwise players would be only field idiots (Huh, that's probably not
translateable. I mean, they're good at only one small subject and no nothing
about all other subjects) The more skill exists, the less the single
character actually knows.

>>I would prefer to see fewer, broader skills with the explicit understanding
>>that this breadth is deliberate.  If a player chose to specialize, I would
>>award them bonuses within their speciality and penalties outside it.

I second that.

>As things become increasingly complicated the human job market becomes
>increasingly specialized.  It's just the way things work.  Lets face it by
>the time the T4 time frame rolls around thing's will be even more complicated. 
But the game shouldn't. 

And it also depends on education. My university tried to offer the broadest
approach to computer science that's possible. We had no classes of how to
program in a special language (for example C) but generally about programing
languages of all kinds. And I tried to stay as long as possible a generalist
on all subjects of computer science.

Perhaps with better education methods, it would become possible to make
students more to learn in less time in the far future. Perhaps the common
scientist or engineer will be older than today because its possible due a
longer life span.
 
>Imagine if you had to keep up on advances in electronic, sensors, weapons,
>gravatics, power plants and every other system that keeps the average
>starship up and running.  I realize that the average starship engineer
>devotes a career to a single ship but lets face it, the average navel tech
>would be so specialize it's not funny.

He would have to accumulate a lot of reference-knowlegde, I would call it.
He didn't actually know the details but only the general repair procedures
and know how to look up the details.

At my company, we've a photocopy-machine which has a little interactive
expert-system to locate and fix simple malfunctions. Very nice and quite
simple to use even for people like :-)

These all might be explanations why in the T4 universe life isn't as complex
as one might expect.

bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:28:30 +0200
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #63

Leonard Erickson asked:

>What do librarians get degrees in? "Information Science" used to be
>called "Library Science" or some such.

They need no (academic) degree at all. It's helpful to have a "Master" in
some liberal arts (for example Germanist or History) but otherwise it's an
occupation you could learn for three years like a joiner or electrician.

>Getting back to Traveller, if the ship is in a position to give support
>from orbit, it *won't* take any "10 minutes". Assuming nothing more
>than a boost that changes the *vector*, but not the velocity of the
>projectile, fire from a ship 1000 km up, would impact in 125 seconds. 
>Fire support ships are likely to be at more like *100* km, so it'd take
>13 seconds. And make a mess of whatever it hit.

I took this example from a Renegate Legion supplement. Is anybody familiar
with FASA's future technology here? For me, the descibed combat tactics are
quite believable and I would like to hear some other voices commenting this.

In a nutshell, to conquer a planet, the main battle ships (called Leviathans
here) will do the battle for system majority, using spinal mass
accelerators, rockets and lasers, supported by different kinds of fighters
(called Interceptors). Ideally, one side will gain orbital majority. To
attack the world, transports will drop grav tanks and grav transports
carrying infantry. Because such a drop seldom will be unnoticed by the
defender and because the battle ships can't maneuver in such close orbit,
the first landing will be a contest between drop tanks and intercepting
fighters. At the ground, air support will be done by either missle carrying
fighers or thor-sattelites, using orbit-to-ground missiles. Ground combat is
done mostly by grav tanks, supported by troops to conquer and secure cities.
Troops will wear only light battle dress (power armor is unknown in that
universe, I think). Their heavy laser weapons can be connected to the fusion
plant of the grav carrier. While ground combat lasts (which is simulated by
the game Centurion, to mention also the third board game :-) the main fleet
will blockade the world to prevent reinforcements. 

bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 23:35:51 +0200
Subject: Re: design system: fundemental suggestion

Bruce Macintosh suggested:

>(1) Calculate all volumens in the classic displacement ton, not m3; round to
>nearest m3 (which may result in some components, like controls, having
>zero volume.) Rationale: fewer fractions for people to deal with, smaller
>and less intimidating numbers, saves converting back and forth from
>disp-tons

I second this. (Or a little bit weaker: Stay with one unit, don't switch
back and forth as FF&S did.) Perhaps one should use dt for "displacement
tons" to not confuse this with metric tons.  Also with naval vessels on
earth, you will confuse their "gross register tons" with metic tons, will you?

>(2) Ignore power requirements for all devices taking less than 0.1 MW (for
>starships, not vehicles, obviously.) Again, saves lots of addition

Yes. I would also ignore displacements on large ships (say about 1000 tons)
of only a few tons (for example computer sizes (which should be included in
the bridge displacement, IHMO!)).

>(3)(4)(5) and (6) all go together and are more controversial:

I still agree.

>(6) Limit number of weapons and sensors as a function of hull size

I think, the old system did this. I remember something like 1 weapon turret
per 100t and 1 weapon bay per 1000t.

>cc'd to the TML because that's where the non-gearheads, who might like this
>best, hang out.

Thanks.

There's one topic, I would like some more detail. I would like to see
improved jump drives, converters and/or maneuver drives with higher TL. I
also would like to see crew size depending on civilian or military ship type
and on TL. Finally I would like to see a list of ready to include components
like

        small cabine (middle passage 1 person civilian, 2 military, 
                      for up to 2 weeks use about a liner or carrier) 2t
        medium cabine (middle passage 1 c, 2 m, unlimited) 4t
        large cabine (high passage 1 person) 8t
        small sick bay (up to 4 patients) 10t
        small machine shop () 10t
        recreation area (needed for passenger ships) 1t per passenger
        ...

        weapon turrets and bays should already contain crew stations
        bridge should also include computer

bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #82
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 11 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 083

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: First Aid is to specific
         2. Re: Medic skill
         3. first aid skill question
         4. Spires
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #80
         6. FFS Sensors Design Question(s)
         7. Re: Jets
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #80
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #80
        10. Re: Spires
        11. Re: FFS Sensors Design Question(s)
        12. Re: Re: Skill Specialization
        13. Medic vs First Aid
        14. Re: Medical Specialization
        15. Re: Character Generation LITE?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 14:38:04 -0700
Subject: Re: First Aid is to specific

Matthew McLaughlin wrote:
> 
> So where would a battlefield medic come in?  Or an independant duty corpsman?
> Man, you should see one of _those_ guys in action; I had one stitch up a
> (small) cut artery in my leg, and the same guy did some moderately serious
> work on a messed up shoulder where a guy had landed on the end of a pipe
> during some heavy rolls at periscope depth.  The doctor on shore (about a
> month later) opened it up, said he couldn't have done much better, and closed
> it up.  These guys do appendectimies (sp?) and pull teeth.  Point is, he'd
> probably be a 1st aid 3, but he's approaching the skills of a doctor,
> at least in terms which would be practical for most games (patching up
> combat damage).  Furthermore, there's not much else for this guy to do short
> of being a doctor with gaining of more skill levels.

See thats where the cascade comes in.  With Trauma Aid/First Aid whatever, you'd 
get Medical/Medic at half that ablitiy.  I will not deny that EMT's Paramedics 
etc. are very skilled individuals and in situations where there can be no 
immediate evacuation to a safe place they have to be even more competent.  In 
the case of a starship/submarine etc. medic I'm sure they'd have to have the 
skills of a doctor, lets face it you're a long way from home and the last thing 
you want to do is lay around for six days with an unsplinted arm or open wound.

> Personally, I think some of these 3 and 4 layer deep hierarchies of skills
>  are one more intimidating complication which may scare away new players.
> Chances are that anyone who want's this detail will be modifying it in-house
> anyway.  There's also the minor point that it's easier to expand it later when
> we have a sane amount of time available than it is to properly optimize a more
> extensive list under the deadlines that IG's got.  Let's keep the basic T4
> simple, and let additions be published as supplements.

I don't think they are all that frightening.  Cascaded serve to broaden a 
characters knowledge at a lower point cost while still allowing for 
specialization.  If the character wants to be a podiatrist in the 54th century, 
power to the people man.  There is however a point where cascading skills 
becomes nitpicking and it just goes way to far.  That's the way things seem to 
be going.  

i.e.  Pilot, jet, multiple jet, prop & multiple prop.  The basic mechanics 
involved in flying a fixed wing air craft are the same reguardless of the plane. 
 THe engines push or pull you forward, the increased airspeed over the wings 
foil shape creates low pressure on the upper surface creating drag.  Honestly if 
you could fly a cessna could you fly a lear jet?  Probably, might take you an 
extra twenty minutes to figure out what all the extra dials are for but the 
basic controls are the same and inspite of the fact the plane responds a little 
differently you should be able to fly it.  Same thing goes for larger aircraft 
still, it may feel like you're flying a mac truck but the principle and the 
controls are very similar, more sophicticated but similar.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 15:55:33 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Medic skill

> >     Medic 1 -- EMT/Nurse
> >     Medic 2 -- Paramedic/RN
> >     Medic 3 -- Doctor
> >     Medic 4 -- Specialist
> 
>   I agree.  I would also suggest that Medic-0 be a default skill for anyone
> with military/Law Enforcement/Scout background.
>   Medic-1 would be a good entry for a background skill table.
> 
>   Wasn't Medic-5 Surgeon?
 
I'm sure my better half would say so :-)

But I doubt you need to break down the difference between medicine docs
and surgeons too much.  Actually, you might put "specialist" after
surgeon, since they usually do fellowships after residency.  Even
surgical specialties.

The rules should add that if you are one of the higher levels that you
think the others (above and below) are weenies :-)

- -Merrick
 

------------------------------

From: Matthew McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 17:02:01 -0600
Subject: first aid skill question

At _some_ point, 1st aid skill goes beyond stabilization, then what?
Convert to medical(general/trauma surgery) at 1st aid 5 or so?

Matt

------------------------------

From: lewis@chara.gsu.edu
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 18:17:33 -0400
Subject: Spires

Derek Stanley said:
> Plus the 
>place was originally red zoned (if you read the codes and right up) why would 
>they do that if these were just poor unfortunate Solomani settlers.  Plus 
>there's the reference to surface metal deposits.

Doesn't it say that the Imperium left the planet interdicted as an
experiment.  I assume that the scouts found the planet, and then
decided that it would make a nifty anthropology experiment to see how
the civilization developed without the aid of metal and fossil fuels. 
I always thought this was pretty callous, to condemn people to a live
of primitive technology just as an experiment, and the expanding Dawn
League contacted these people and set about fixing yet another error of
the Imperial era.  

>However, if you're a developing culture, see 
>the Aztecs, Maya and Inca, and you lack surface metals in any kind of 
>quantity you're technology is going to stall out pretty quick and you'll be 
>stuck at a lower tech level.
I thought that the original settlers didn't mine their own materials,
maybe they used the asteroid belt, (Does it have an asteroid belt ?) or
maybe they just used lots of synthetic materials.  During the Long
Night their society collapsed, and the technology plummeted.  For the
last 2-3 thousand years, they haven't been able to mine significant
amounts of metal.  Maybe enough to make the odd sword, but nothing to
allow an industrial revolution. 

I do think that Spires would have developed many different attitudes,
than the rest of the Imperium.  For instance on Psionics, they didn't
undergo the Psionic Suppressions, so psionics are more common there.  

Lewis

------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 17:24:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #80

>I come from a theater background originally.  The skills & ships 
>discussions remind me sometimes of an early 20th century playwright and 
>director named David Belasco.  Belasco was famous for bringing the 
>ultimate in reality to his plays.  He tried to design slice of life 
>sets and plays.  One of them (I can't remember which), opens with a 
>sunrise, simulated with a few lighting tricks.  The problem is he 
>simulated a sunrise in real time (i.e. the audience watched lighting 
>behind the set simulate a sunrise for 10-15 minutes.  The audience 
>was bored to tears.  Belasco was a flop who never could understand 
>why his play failed...
>
>I recognize that this analogy is going to be dismissed as irrelevant 
>by a lot of people, but the more you complicate the rules system, the 

I would hardly call it irrelevant.  It hits the subject dead center!
(Hard to believe you have a theater background.  Most such people would
try to explain why we should be enjoying paying big bucks to watch a 
20 minute sunrise!)

I think your analogy also applies to the debates on star ship design.
Just why do I care that my tech 10 radio gear takes .000032 Mega watts?
All I want to know and all my players want to know is "Does this ship 
have a working radio?"

Certainly some gear heads just won't be happy without page after page
of boring charts showing the power requirements for endless technical 
dribble.  But when they try to explain how page after page of boring 
technical dribble in chart form is realy a new 'simplified' system 
it makes me want to just shake my head a reach for book 2.

- -Daniel




------------------------------

From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 17:26:44 -0500
Subject: FFS Sensors Design Question(s)

I was wondering if anyone else has found the interesting issue with passive
sensor design.
I have found that when I manually calculate the surface area of the antenna
using the given antenna diameter in meters, I get vastly different values
than what is shown in FFS. I used the formula of radius squared times pi.

AD      AA      Calc
0.25    0.02    0.05
0.5     0.08    0.2
1       0.4     0.8
2.25    1.6     4
3.5     4       10
5       8       20
10      32      79
20      120     314
40      480     1257
90      2400    6362
200     12000   31416
400     50000   125664

AD is the antenna diameter in meters
AA is the surface area in square meters
Calc is the surface area calculated from the AD value.

If the surface area from FFS is a two dimensional measurement then how do
you have less surface area than the formula will allow. If the measurement
is meant to an actual surface area of Three dimensional object(antenna) then
it is really off. Ie how do you have volume measurement less than the
surface measurement?

Then you can make for even greater error at various tech levels you can get
even a smaller area than on the table. ie at TL 15 you modify the surface
area by .025. 

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net


------------------------------

From: David Gillon <100605.3625@CompuServe.COM>
Date: 11 Jun 96 18:28:02 EDT
Subject: Re: Jets

>> Trivia fact.  The Komet was test flown by a woman.  
Can't remember her name though, they found it rather 
difficult to get male volountiers to test fly the thing.  
This was all of the original test flights, not just one. <<

You're thinking of Flugkaptain Hanna Reitsch, one of the 
leading, perhaps best, German test pilots during the war. 
However, Reitsch was _not_ one of the prime test pilots 
in the Komet flight test programme. Test pilot for the 
first flight (March 41) of the Me 163 was Heini Dittmar, 
who also made the first powered flight later the same year 
and then spent two years in hospital after breaking his 
back in a crash later in the programme. Dittmar was joined 
by Rudolf Opitz, who made the first flight in the production 
Me 163B-0. By early 1943 test flying had shifted to the 
regular Luftwaffe unit Erprobungskommando 16. Reitsch did 
fly it, crashing and severely injuring herself when trying 
to land after the wheeled dolly failed to release on take 
off (Opitz was the only pilot ever to succeed at that).

While I've got my references out, I can give precise answers 
to a few of the points made in this thread over the last few 
days. C-Stoff was a hydrazine hydrate in methyl alcohol solution 
and T-Stoff was hydrogen peroxide. The T-Stoff tanks were behind 
the cockpit and on either side of it, the C-Stoff tanks were 
in the wings.
 
As for not knowing what they were getting into, early pilots 
were above average and went through a training programme 
involving training gliders, towed flights, glides in a water-
ballasted -A, powered flights in a -A, and only then flights 
in the combat capable Me 163-B. By the time they were ready 
they would know precisely what they were facing.

Take-off and landing accidents accounted for 80% of Komet 
losses, 15% were in-air accidents, primarily near-Mach 
compressibility which wasn't understood until post war, 
and 5% to enemy action. An improved version with proper 
landing gear and an improved motor was designed but not 
completed.

Can we get back to Traveller now?

                                David


------------------------------

From: Noel Kelly <nkelly@pcug.org.au>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:44:25 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #80

Dear Folks -

Derek Stanley and Rob Miracle are discussing skill levels. One possible
solution is to use cascade skills in the way they are used in the TNE rules
 - that is, you have expertise in one skill in the cascade and a lesser
knowledge of other skills in the cascade.

This allows things like the Imperial Academy of Science and Medicine 
(JTAS#22) to make sense: a character is a doctor who specialises in 
bone fractures, or xenobiology(Aslan), etc.

The prime example in TNE was in the area of psionics - the PC is specialised
in one Psi cascade area but can still access other aspects of that
same area, such as teleperception.

- - Hyphen
(David Jaques-Watson)
...still searching for my own email address...

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 16:14:00 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #80

Noel Kelly wrote:
> 
> Dear Folks -
> 
> Derek Stanley and Rob Miracle are discussing skill levels. One possible
> solution is to use cascade skills in the way they are used in the TNE rules
>  - that is, you have expertise in one skill in the cascade and a lesser
> knowledge of other skills in the cascade.
> 
> This allows things like the Imperial Academy of Science and Medicine
> (JTAS#22) to make sense: a character is a doctor who specialises in
> bone fractures, or xenobiology(Aslan), etc.

Actually xenobiology was considered to relate to totally alien species.  ie, the 
Cymbiline chips.  Aslan are carbon based lifeforms with a life cycle very much 
like our own.
 
> The prime example in TNE was in the area of psionics - the PC is specialised
> in one Psi cascade area but can still access other aspects of that
> same area, such as teleperception.

Exactly.  Just because you're training to be a in charge of your ships black 
globe doesn't mean that you get to slack off on learning about sand casters etc. 
What if the guy beside you can't do his job, you've got to do it.  This is 
exactly what I've been arguing for is the cascade system.  But not to the point 
where it becomes ludicrous.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 16:27:51 -0700
Subject: Re: Spires

lewis@chara.gsu.edu wrote:
> 
> Derek Stanley said:
> > Plus the
> >place was originally red zoned (if you read the codes and right up) why would
> >they do that if these were just poor unfortunate Solomani settlers.  Plus
> >there's the reference to surface metal deposits.
> 
> Doesn't it say that the Imperium left the planet interdicted as an
> experiment.  I assume that the scouts found the planet, and then

Yes it does the world was intedicted as a scientific laboritory to study social 
development.  The exact phrase reads "During the Third Imperium this was a 
primitive world placed under Imperial Interdict as and anthropological laboratory 
for observation of and controlled experiments on social development.

> decided that it would make a nifty anthropology experiment to see how
> the civilization developed without the aid of metal and fossil fuels.
> I always thought this was pretty callous, to condemn people to a live
> of primitive technology just as an experiment, and the expanding Dawn
> League contacted these people and set about fixing yet another error of
> the Imperial era.

Horay for the Dawn League!
 
> >However, if you're a developing culture, see
> >the Aztecs, Maya and Inca, and you lack surface metals in any kind of
> >quantity you're technology is going to stall out pretty quick and you'll be
> >stuck at a lower tech level.

> I thought that the original settlers didn't mine their own materials,
> maybe they used the asteroid belt, (Does it have an asteroid belt ?) or

No, no asteroid belt E894789-2  403.

> maybe they just used lots of synthetic materials.  During the Long
> Night their society collapsed, and the technology plummeted.  For the

Given the decay rate of synthetic materials, lets face it they'll be digging us up 
for milenia to come, I can't accept this either.  Surely if the supposed colony 
possessed equipment they must have known that the raw materials necessary to keep 
their culture running existed quite literally beneath their feet.

> last 2-3 thousand years, they haven't been able to mine significant
> amounts of metal.  Maybe enough to make the odd sword, but nothing to
> allow an industrial revolution.
> 
> I do think that Spires would have developed many different attitudes,
> than the rest of the Imperium.  For instance on Psionics, they didn't
> undergo the Psionic Suppressions, so psionics are more common there.

On this I agree totally.  In fact given Spires developent of philosophy and the 
arts I'd say psionic tallents and psionic training are not uncommon.  Granted 
they'd be shamistic types thats for sure or something like that.

I still can't beleive that the Imperium, which brought all these other worlds back 
from the dark ages would single out a planet and decide these people shall remain 
in the stone age just so we can study them.  Think of the outrage, amongst the 
Solomani population if these were Solomani colonists.  Where as if these peoples 
culture developed insitu they would merely be creating an historical preserve for 
scientists around the galaxy to experement in.  If they're settlers they're 
someones relatives or belong to some culture, if they're genuinely legitamit 
inhabitants then whats the harm, the first and second imperiums probably observed 
them too.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 18:41:43 -0500
Subject: Re: FFS Sensors Design Question(s)

Merrick Burkhardt (merrick@qrc.com)
At 04:46 PM 6/11/96 -0600, you wrote:
> 
>> AD      AA      Calc
>> 0.25    0.02    0.05
>> 0.5     0.08    0.2
>> 1       0.4     0.8
>> 2.25    1.6     4
>> 3.5     4       10
>> 5       8       20
>> 10      32      79
>> 20      120     314
>> 40      480     1257
>> 90      2400    6362
>> 200     12000   31416
>> 400     50000   125664
>> 
>> AD is the antenna diameter in meters
>> AA is the surface area in square meters
>> Calc is the surface area calculated from the AD value.
>> 
>> If the surface area from FFS is a two dimensional measurement then how do
>> you have less surface area than the formula will allow. If the measurement
>> is meant to an actual surface area of Three dimensional object(antenna) then
>> it is really off. Ie how do you have volume measurement less than the
>> surface measurement?
>
>The array is just that, an array.  It isn't for example, a 90m antenna,
>but rather a few smaller antennas that are 90m apart.  So your total
>surface area will be less than the area of a circle of the radius of the
>array.
> 

Ok sounds reasonable maybe in the next version of FFS that could be better
described.

>> Then you can make for even greater error at various tech levels you can get
>> even a smaller area than on the table. ie at TL 15 you modify the surface
>> area by .025. 
>
>This is to account for better detectors, no doubt.  The array diameter
>stays the same, but it gets the same data with smaller individual
>detectors.  These are all aperture synthesis arrays (like the VLA here
>in new mexico).  Maybe they start using grav focusing...
>
>It turns out that resolution is a function of the diameter of your
>telescope.  If you can very precisely match data coming in from two or
>more telescopes at the same time, the resolution is a function of the
>distance *between* the two scopes, not the diameter of the individual
>telescopes.
>
>Angular_resolution = 1.22*wavelength/d  where d is the distance between
>the elements in the array (generally---this is off the top of my head).
>There are complications to this involving sampling rates, etc. that
>require more than just 2 detectors to optimize this, but you get the
>idea.
>
>-Merrick
>

Hmm could you not also have a decrease in the needed diameter too at higher
tech levels. From personal experience the optical range finders(Fire
Directors) used by the US Navy before radar, the lenses apertures were over
twenty feet apart. But refinements of optics at later TL's decreased the
apertures distances to less than half of twenty feet. The higher TL also
provided greater resolution and speed of calculation.

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 11 Jun 1996 19:49:36 GMT
Subject: Re: Re: Skill Specialization

>How many computer technitians can fix the monitor as well as the computer
>and how many computer programers know how to figure out which chip on their
>main board is fried.  Next to none I'll bet.

Actually, most of the folks I worked with at BNR could trouble-shoot down to
the board level.  That's 2000+ people at a single lab!  Even our secretaries
were multi-talented.  (Kelly taught herself the CAD system and helped us out
by entering/errorchecking chip masks!)

>As things become increasingly complicated the human job market becomes
>increasingly specialized.  It's just the way things work.  Lets face it by
>the time the T4 time frame rolls around thing's will be even more
complicated.  

Actually, the current job market is becoming more generalized.  Employers are
searching for people who are adaptable, able to handle a variety of tasks,
and able to train themselves.  (Sounds like adventurers, right?)  In this
environment you can't afford to be too specialized.  (End of career lecture.)

Seriously, and leftover lectures aside, the world belongs to those who do not
limit themselves.  One of my friends in university was an artist, professor,
tv & computer technician, printer, machinist, fencer, chef, and architectural
draftsman.  (That's just what he was good at - he tried everything.)  Steve
Williams (you know, head animator at ILM) was advising my kids to broaden
themselves out.  He himself draws, animates, fiddles with computer code,
shoots, rebuilds engines, cooks well, gives haircuts to his colleagues... --
and his colleagues attribute his success to the way he always tackles new
fields.

>Take your average engine.  Internal Combustion right, fuel injected or
>carburated? computer controlled timing, electronic ignition, spark plugs.
>Diesel or Gas.  The average gasoline engine mechanic spends two weeks a year
>learning what the latest technologies are in his particular brand. 

Given the right tools and manuals, my colleague Dave can fix nearly anything
that moves.  He has a good understanding of the principles of small engines,
and a methodical way of working.  (Seems like magic to me, but he says the
same about my computer troubleshooting.)

>lets face it, the average navel tech would be so specialize it's not funny.

I disagree with you, but assuming what you say is true, how do you handle the
gaming aspect?  Must my character always keep the same equipment?  Can Han
Solo fly anything other than the Millenium Flacon?


------------------------------

From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc <Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
Date: 11 Jun 96 16:34:57 MS
Subject: Medic vs First Aid

Rob Miracle, our most kind and forgiving List Master, did say:
>I think "First Aid" as a skill is a bad idea all together.  Use 
>Medic for what  its for:
>
>    Medic 0 -- Able to render First Aid
>    Medic 1 -- EMT/Nurse
>   Medic 2 -- Paramedic/RN
>   Medic 3 -- Doctor
>    Medic 4 -- Specialist
>
>We are discussing the skill list for Traveller not any other system.
>Traveller has a way of doing things and you can't fractionalize a skill like
>this.  This would be like taking Vehicle(ground) and breaking it into:
>Sedan, 4x4, race-car. 

I really have to disagree with this (is disagreeing with the listmaster a 
dangerous thing?).  You are comparing apples and oranges here.  Operating a 
wheeled vehicle, whether pickup truck, sedan, sport-utility or family van, all 
require basically the same skills and the same sorts of reactions.  You could 
make an argument that offroad driving is different, but overall the wheeled 
vehicles are very similar.  

I always look at First Aid as being trauma care; attemtpting to save the 
patient's life by stabilizing the patient until better care can be found, or 
until the EMT can get the info needed to give better care himself.  Medic, on 
the other hand, takes the longer-term view of curing the patient.  This means 
EMT/first aid is a far different  task (with different skills and instincts) 
than providing long-term doctor-style health care.  That is not to say that 
there is no overlap between the two, but the two jobs demand different skills 
and strengths.   In the case of a doctor, he can probably do most everything an 
EMT can do and just as well, but the doctor will be working under the handicap 
of a much different work situation.  The doctor will be working to CURE the 
patient, which is a much larger, longer and more comlex task than simply 
stabilizing the patient.  An EMT might not be able to perform many of the 
delicate and highly-skilled functions of a full surgeon, but he is trained in 
rapid triage-type decision processes, and trained to STABILIZE (not cure) the 
patient.

What I could see is that a person with Medic-4 (a full Doctor) could use First 
Aid at one skill level less than his Medic skill.  On the other hand, an EMT 
could use his First Aid as Medic, but with a two-level penalty (minimum zero).  
That is to say, Medic-4 could act as First Aid-3, but First Aid-4 would act as 
Medic-2.

This would render a breakdown like this:
Level    Medic          First Aid
0      Med Student      Red Cross Volunteer
1      RN               Police/Fireman
2      RN/Practitioner  Army Medic
3      Doctor           EMT
4      Specialist       Trauma Specialist

Or something like that.

My Cr.02 for the afternoon
Steve Charlton
scharlto@avalon.com
I'm not a doctor, I just play one in Traveller


------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 11 Jun 1996 20:03:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Medical Specialization

After watching the debate, and talking to my sister (who's a paramedic) and
father (toxicologist and vet) I've decided that _possibly_ Medical skill
could be cascaded:

Trauma: treatment of trauma victims.  Ranges from "don't move victim" to
saintly ER surgeon.

Clinical: standard GP stuff.  Lower levels are nurses, higher generalist
doctors.

Research: could be more specialised, but I wanted to keep this somewhat
simple.


As usual with cascade skills, a character would have half level in other
areas.  Thus, Medical (Trauma) -4 would also be Medical (Clinical) - 2.


Now, I probably wouldn't bother too much with this unless medical knowledge
was important to the adventure.  But then, I don't worry too much about
skills at all unless they are important to the adventure.  

------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 17:33:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Character Generation LITE?

Thus spake Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>:

> On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Wes Payne wrote:
> > Thus spake Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>:

[previous discussion on quick, 'archetype'-based character generation 
 system snipped]
 
> > I definitely propose it as an optional character generation system, sort 
> > of like the simplified "FF&S Lite" Plug-n-Play system for quickly 
> > designing starships that's being hammered out.
> 
>    Sold! I'll work out a few ideas, while you do the same. We can post
> notes to the list for criticism and comments. <g>

(looks up with shocked expression on face after being startled awake by 
 the sound of a gavel)

Uh, what?  Oh.  Wow.  I'm not sure that I'd want to go too far into 
something like that without some input from the Valiant Heroes (Poor 
Souls) actually hammering this stuff out for the new Traveller.  Although 
there has been quite a bit of input on this list about the direction that 
the starship design rules ought to go, starting with Don Perrin's request 
for comments and culminating in David Golden's being happily tasked with 
refining FF&S Lite by the IG Press Gang, there has been no equivalent 
discourse on the other aspects of the new release, such as Greg Porter's 
bit on vehicles and equipment, or the basic character generation and 
combat rules.  I haven't seen the GDW-beta list, and have no idea whether 
or not subscribing to it would shed any more light on what those folks 
are up to.

Since I don't know the basic assumptions of the new rules set, I really 
don't want to muck about with it beforehand.  For instance:  Are 
controlling attributes the most significant part of a relevant skill 
'asset,' as in TNE, or is the skill level itself the biggest factor in 
determining potential success or failure?  How do attribute levels (such 
as social standing) affect career options, and how do career paths affect 
attribute levels?  I've really got no idea.

Sure, I suppose I could bang something out based on the TNE system, once 
finals week is over, as some sort of prototype.  I'm going to be a 
rent-a-cop this summer ("Here's a gun -- you don't get one!"), so I'll 
likely have plenty of time on my hands, and this project will go a long 
way towards making sure I remain awake for my entire shift.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #83
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 12 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 084

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Skill Specialization
         2. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #63
         3. Re: Medic vs First Aid  [There can be only ONE...]
         4. Re: First Aid vs Medical.
         5. first aid v. medical skill
         6. Orbital Bombardment
         7. Re: Jets
         8. Re: Skill Specialization
         9. Re: Orbital Bombardment
        10. Re: Orbital Bombardment
        11. FFS Lite - offer of help

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 18:10:12 -0700
Subject: Re: Skill Specialization

> Actually, most of the folks I worked with at BNR could trouble-shoot down to
> the board level.  That's 2000+ people at a single lab!  Even our secretaries
> were multi-talented.  (Kelly taught herself the CAD system and helped us out
> by entering/errorchecking chip masks!)

You must work in an office of super genius's.  I work in a fairly technical place and 
other than the technical support staff I'm the only person who knows how to fix things. 
 If something goes wrong with the computers I get first crack at it and if that doesn't 
fix it they call in our techs and wait an hour for them to arrive.
 
> Actually, the current job market is becoming more generalized.  Employers are
> searching for people who are adaptable, able to handle a variety of tasks,
> and able to train themselves.  (Sounds like adventurers, right?)  In this
> environment you can't afford to be too specialized.  (End of career lecture.)

You must work in a wonderous place.  Every job add I've ever seen, and beleive me I'm 
looking a lot now because my office is on strike.  You have to have four years 
experience, understand the basic nature of atomic physics, write nobel prize winning 
literature and be able to operate a scanning electron microscope.
 
> Seriously, and leftover lectures aside, the world belongs to those who do not
> limit themselves.  One of my friends in university was an artist, professor,
> tv & computer technician, printer, machinist, fencer, chef, and architectural
> draftsman.  (That's just what he was good at - he tried everything.)  Steve
> Williams (you know, head animator at ILM) was advising my kids to broaden
> themselves out.  He himself draws, animates, fiddles with computer code,
> shoots, rebuilds engines, cooks well, gives haircuts to his colleagues... --
> and his colleagues attribute his success to the way he always tackles new
> fields.

I know the kind of people.  I've got a BA in archaeology, I know how to fix cars, I 
operate a 3d animator for kicks, write short stories and game articles as well as 
understanding the nature of most special effects, camera operation and script writing
 
> Given the right tools and manuals, my colleague Dave can fix nearly anything
> that moves.  He has a good understanding of the principles of small engines,
> and a methodical way of working.  (Seems like magic to me, but he says the
> same about my computer troubleshooting.)

Again Dave appears to be the exception rather than the rule.  I work, used to actually, 
closely with a number of professional mechanics, several refuse to touch diesel engines, 
and only one really understands how to properly tune a propane engine.
 
> >lets face it, the average navel tech would be so specialize it's not funny.
> 
> I disagree with you, but assuming what you say is true, how do you handle the
> gaming aspect?  Must my character always keep the same equipment?  Can Han
> Solo fly anything other than the Millenium Flacon?

Solo is a single vehical specialist, he's spent years learning the insides of the 
Falcon.  He knows it like the back of his hand.  Any engineering officer serving aboard 
a single navel vessel would have the same degree of knowledge about his vessel.  
However, I was refering to the average Navel tech at a refit yard.  I didn't clarify the 
point did I?

Lets face it most of us who surf the net with any regularity can to a certian degree 
refer to ourselves as "Renesance Men" (no offence intended to the women out there but 
that is the original term) meaning that there is little that we don't know at least 
something about.  

I'll admit I'm totally ignorant of computer programing, don't even want to know about it 
really, I just want the application to do its job right and I'll take it from there.  
But I can rip apart and repair anything in my computer, but the code itself may as well 
be written in ancient egyptian.  Sure everyone on a starship would be expected to 
understand how things work to a limited extent but how many of they would really 
understand how a jump space field is formed or what it is exactly that makes a ship 
precipitate out of J-Space at 100? diameters.  Its gravity, but what is it about gravity 
that makes it happen.

Derek Stanley

------------------------------

From: mike foy <musashi@norfolk.infi.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:30:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #63

At 11:28 PM 6/11/96 +0200, you wrote:
>Leonard Erickson asked:
>
>>What do librarians get degrees in? "Information Science" used to be
>>called "Library Science" or some such.
>
>They need no (academic) degree at all. It's helpful to have a "Master" in
>some liberal arts (for example Germanist or History) but otherwise it's an
>occupation you could learn for three years like a joiner or electrician.
>
b***s***! You can't get any library job above shelver in Virgina without a
Masters of Library Science accredited by the American Library Association.
It is the same for MD. Penn., Del., NC, SC, and WVA. and 48 of the 50
states. You can get a full time job as a "part-time'' circulation, research,
or shelving clerk. I've worked in Richmond, Virginia Beach, and two college
libraries in Virgina without an MLS, and I know that management and
supervisory positions are filled with MLS holders. MLS people are in such
surpluss their filling the lower rung positions as well.

Library science involves a lot more than looking like a spinster and saying
shush! With modern record keeping and archival storage, combined with
digital storage and on-line research data  services, it getting harder and
more professional each year, I'm sure by the 30th century it'll be as
specialized as agriculture or medic [as mentioned on a previous posst ;)].
Information sciences and library science until recently were two different
fields but are now blending together. Someone in a information science
program will be required to learn library science skills and vice versa. MIS
will still be business oriented and libraries public or research oriented,
but as we know with the net, everything is starting to blur when it comes to
data and communications!

My apologies, but this is my field of employment, and it stings a little to
say that you can just learn it like a journeyman electrician. Maybe in the
Imperium, but not in the real world.

Musashi



------------------------------

From: "David Reed" <nacht@neosoft.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:16:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Medic vs First Aid  [There can be only ONE...]

- ----------
> From: Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc
<Steve_Charlton@khan.Avalon.COM>
> To: traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
> Subject: Medic vs First Aid
> Date: Tuesday, June 11, 1996 11:34 AM
> 
> Rob Miracle, our most kind and forgiving List Master,
did say:
> >I think "First Aid" as a skill is a bad idea all
together.  Use 
> >Medic for what  its for:
[snip]
> I always look at First Aid as being trauma care;
attemtpting to save the 
> patient's life by stabilizing the patient until better
care can be found, or 
> until the EMT can get the info needed to give better
care himself.  Medic, on 
> the other hand, takes the longer-term view of curing the
patient.  This means 
> EMT/first aid is a far different  task (with different
skills and instincts) 

I think you are generalizing too much about "doctor-style"
care.  Doctors may
go about learning the same "trauma" skills via a different
approach:  anatomy,
biology, chemistry, first, then on to the visceral skills
of surgery, controlled
substances, etc.

HOWEVER, this does not mean that they apply different
techniques than a
"trauma care" practitioner a la EMT, just that they have a
better understanding
of the whole procedure and its ramifications.  The same
reason the Terminators
were programmed with biological data about humans, to make
them more 
efficient...

[snip]
> of a much different work situation.  The doctor will be
working to CURE the 
> patient, which is a much larger, longer and more comlex
task than simply 
> stabilizing the patient.  An EMT might not be able to
perform many of the 
> delicate and highly-skilled functions of a full surgeon,
but he is trained in 
> rapid triage-type decision processes, and trained to
STABILIZE (not cure) the 
> patient.

Any doctor on the scene of an accident would be doing
exactly the same things
as an EMT, and with better understanding of the
consequences...  Apply pressure,
lie down, that is CSF leaking from his ears we need
lifeflight NOW!  Oh, and they
have the authority to call the lifeflight choppers, too. 
Bonus.
 
> What I could see is that a person with Medic-4 (a full
Doctor) could use First 
> Aid at one skill level less than his Medic skill.  On
the other hand, an EMT 
> could use his First Aid as Medic, but with a two-level
penalty (minimum zero).  
> That is to say, Medic-4 could act as First Aid-3, but
First Aid-4 would act as 
> Medic-2.

I think any MD who hasn't been out of med school for 30
years would probably
remember most of the vital trauma skills learned therein,
however, I don't think
they teach long-term wound care, chemotherapy, or
pre/post-natal care to EMTs...

This WILL make for a lot of Med-1s out there, but that is
infinitely preferable to
a proliferation of nonsensical skills...  If necessary, I
would separate Surgery
and Medicine, but no further...  without adding another
level of complexity with
subskills...  counter to the Traveller ethos.
 
- -- 
Dave  <nacht@neosoft.com>  public key available

Zen
"If you wish to find the unclouded truth,
do not concern yourself with right and wrong.
Conflicts with right and wrong are a sickness of the
mind."



------------------------------

From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 21:12:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: First Aid vs Medical.

Derek Stanley wrote: 

> >Some people are, but you cant say that Joe with his Int of 12 is going 
to be
>> a talented Computer Programmer and because his Int is 12, he is also going
 >> to be a talanted biologist.  Attributes are good for things that are 
common
>> to a lot of things like using Int to look for clues (frankly an 
observation
>> isnt a skill but a function of intellegence -- another argument for 
another
>> day.  I have never seen a "Observation Class" offered at a school).  
You can
>> train skills, natural ability is the attributes.  Let the attributes 
modify
>> the skills, but don't make the skills modify the attributes.
 
>> Example:  Joe Int 12, Computer-4, and Will, Int 8, and Computer-4.  Both
>> have the same training and experience with Computers, but a problem shows
>> up, Joe should have an edge over Will, but 4 points worth because that 
says
>> that Joe with a computer-0 and an Int 12 is equal to the training and
>> experience of Wills Computer-4, that isn't real.

>To true.  Never did like that either, but lets face it what are the odds 
>ofhaving an Int of 12?  Slim and none and Slim just left town.  I think 
>thatusing the governing attribute to modify the skill shows inate ability.  
>That certian something that some people just have.  Lets face it we all know someone 
>who's been told the correct way of doing something a thousand times and 
>still can't do it right and we all know someone who gets told once and 
>knows for the rest of their life.

True, but what about the difference between a 9 and a 5?  A 9 is good, but
hardly impossible (1/6th of the time in fact ), a 5 is only 1 point below
average. 

Under TNE this difference becomes *vast*.  Skills are basically worthless
in TNE.  Good stats = competent character average or poor stats = poor
character.  That's why I much prefer MT.  In MT the same difference
between a 5 and a 9 (in MT a 6 and a 10) is 1 point.  An MT character will
have on average half as many skills as a TNE character, so Skill/2 and
Stat Bonus/4 = stats are twice as powerful in TNE, which IMHO is a *very*
bad thing.  

In MT good stats can turn someone who is a good with a skill into someone
who is very good with it.  In TNE good stats can turn someone who is poor
(ie skill level 1 ) in a skill into someone who is better than a trained
professional (skill level 4). 

- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com



------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 21:53:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: first aid v. medical skill

1)  What about the role of diagnosis in medical skill levels?  I've always
thought that that was what differentiated the doctors from the nurses,
orderlies, candy-stripers, paramedics, and technicians (now that more women
are becoming doctors, we can expect to see salary levels decline, so there
will no longer be an order of magnitude in income difference to help us tell
the classes apart at the hospital).  

The doctors have a license to diagnose what's wrong with the patient --
whether it's severe lead poisoning, some rare disease, or a bullet wound --
and select treatment based on that diagnosis.  Administering the treatment
can be done at a lower skill level.  Paramedics or EMTs have some authority
to diagnose and treat, but only within their field of expertise, and are
licensed to do so.  

2)  What about psychiatry?  Psychiatrists need M.D. degrees (in the
contemporary U.S.A., at least).  They probably spend a turn in ER in medical
school.  Then all of their post-med school rotations are probably
psych-related, so they don't see more surgery and emergency.  How do we fit
them into the game?

As for straight role-playing, a psychiatrist could have unusual insights:

Captain Blood:  Well, we're outnumbered and outgunned, they've cut off our
only available avenue of escape, and they're about ten minutes behind us.
Suggestions, staff?

Bob Weasel:  Why don't we offer to split the loot we've stolen, and tell
them where we've cached what we couldn't carry (lying about the location, of
course)?

Mad Mike:  You guys should continue running in the same direction, but I'll
stay here, camouflaged.  When they've passed me, I'll sneak up behind and
take one prisoner -- preferably one of their leaders.  Then we can parley
our way out.

Dr. Reich:  Remember that we're dealing with some badly-adjusted, borderline
personalities.  Their inner parent figures -- called superegos in ancient
times -- are in control, not their inner adults.  So they won't respond
rationally to Bob's and Mike's suggestions.  I suggest that instead we act
like good children:  show some contrition, like making an offer to surrender
and to give everything back.  Tell them how bad we feel and how we know we
need to be punished.  Then when they get close and their guard is down, we
blast 'em with everything we have and run like hell!

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 13:11:24 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Orbital Bombardment

Stefan Matthias wrote:

>
>In a nutshell, to conquer a planet, the main battle ships (called Leviathans
>here) will do the battle for system majority, using spinal mass
>accelerators, rockets and lasers, supported by different kinds of fighters
>(called Interceptors). Ideally, one side will gain orbital majority. 

        Up until here, I agree with you.  I'd argue that eventually, the
attackers will either attain total orbital superiority, or withdraw.  If
they want to capture the planet relatively intact, and don't want to wipe
out the population or urban centers, etc, then they proceed to the next
step.  Otherwise, they just break out the planet busters and trash the place.

>To
>attack the world, transports will drop grav tanks and grav transports
>carrying infantry. Because such a drop seldom will be unnoticed by the
>defender and because the battle ships can't maneuver in such close orbit,
>the first landing will be a contest between drop tanks and intercepting
>fighters. 

        Here's where I really start disagreeing with you: the next step
would consist of the orbiting force suppressing the planetary-based defenses
(assuming they are not foreced to retreat).  The big, obvious targets such
as defense installations and other strategic targets would simply have rocks
dropped on them (why waste a good nuke when a nice handy nickel-iron
asteroid will do just as well).  The smaller or mobile targets would be
dealt with by energy weapons and "smart telephone poles" and "smart
crowbars"; guided kinetic-kill munitions.  
        Once all targets detectable from space are destroyed, *then* you
start dropping in a *few* grav tanks & transports, with lots of decoys mixed
in, and backed by lots of jamming.  The idea is to make feint attacks, and
try and eliminate as much of the remaining defence as possible before
sending in the main body of troops.  Once all the remaining defences that
can be drawn out have drawn themselves out, *then* the troops are put on the
ground, with the orbiting force continuing to provide fire support (directed
by forward observers or not; it's up to you :>).

        The idea here is simply that a) being at the top of the gravity well
provides an immense advantage (free kinetic energy!) and b) wasting infantry
is criminally stupid.
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Albert Lowe <sirdirk@xnet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 00:18:28 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Jets

On 11 Jun 1996, David Gillon wrote:

[snip]
> Can we get back to Traveller now?

Thank you.

+-----------------------------------------+
:Al Lowe              sirdirk@xnet.com    :
:HOMEPAGE at http://www.xnet.com/~sirdirk :
: "I'd rather win nothing, than WIN95"    :
+-----------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:39:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Skill Specialization

On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:

> > >lets face it, the average navel tech would be so specialize it's not funny.
> >
> > I disagree with you, but assuming what you say is true, how do you handle the
> > gaming aspect?  Must my character always keep the same equipment?  Can Han
> > Solo fly anything other than the Millenium Flacon?
>
> Solo is a single vehical specialist, he's spent years learning the insides of the
> Falcon.  He knows it like the back of his hand.  Any engineering officer serving aboard

(Fears of diverging this into a Star Wars thread aside), Han Solo did
manage to pilot that captured Imperial Transport with no problem, and
Lando Calrisian (sp?) did destroy the death star with the Falcon.
Granted, he did own it previously, but Lando has got to be the prime
example of generalization (pirate, trader, business man, pilot, etc.).

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: Michael Bailey <mickb@thehub.com.au>
Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:10:15 -0900
Subject: Re: Orbital Bombardment

I seem to remembering in Niven & Purnelle's 'Footfall' something similar to
the 'smart crowbar' described.  If my memory is correct, the Yanks,
sorry...US :) experimented with a 'Project Thor' in the late sixties/early
seventies.

Niven/Pournelle's weapon was similar - basically a crowbar with steering
vanes and just enough electronic smarts to recognise a tank from above.

Correct me if I'm wrong though...

Mick

Michael Bailey 

'quick to judge, quick to anger, slow to understand.  Ignorance and
prejudice and fear walk hand in hand.'
                             Rush, 'The Witchhunt'


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 06:43:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Orbital Bombardment

I am surprised nobody has mentione Heinlein's _Starship Troopers_ yet.
Fire a bunch of armed to the teeth soldiers, mixed up with decoys, out of
launch tubes, presumably after suppressing any planetary defenses.

A very good look at what the future foot soldier may have to go through.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk (Liam McCauley)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 13:59:03 +0200
Subject: FFS Lite - offer of help

     Whoah!
     
     I go away on honeymoon for a fortnight and when I return there are 
     more than 60 Traveller digests to wade through.  What's been happening 
     since I left?  Don Perrin posts his ideas for the spaceship design 
     rules, but gets talked round to using FFSL.  David Golden offers all 
     his spare time for the next six months, his salary and use of his home 
     for free (well, nearly ;-)).  Staggering.  I've had to subscribe to 
     GDW-beta so I can follow how this goes.
     
     David, at some point 20 or 30 digests ago (it seems - my head is still 
     spinning after reading them all, and I've still got Ars Magica, 
     Runquest and X-boat to get through yet) you asked for specific help 
     (although I don't remember the details.  Do you still need any help?  
     I'm reasonably handy with FF&S and am prepared to do some donkey-work 
     knocking up any systems you might need.  Get in contact with me if 
     there's anything I can do.
     
     Full marks to the people at IG.  I've ordered my hardback T4, and by 
     the look of things, I'll be buying the Spaceship book too when it 
     comes out, too.
     
     Cheers,
     Liam
     
     --
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #84
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 12 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 085

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. The Rice papers
         2. RE: Orbital Bombardment
         3. Re: Jet Trivia (Td V96#81)
         4. Re: Medic vs First Aid
         5. Re:  FFS Sensors Design Question(s)
         6. Re:  FFS Sensors Design Question(s)
         7. FF&S: Missing data on page 75
         8. Re: Medic vs First Aid
         9. RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #77
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #80
        11. Re: First Aid vs. Medical.
        12. Re: Medic vs First Aid
        13. Re: J-drives & M-Drives
        14. Re: Aircraft: Single vs. Multiple Engine.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Tommy Grav <tommyg@ifi.uio.no>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 14:04:23 +0200
Subject: The Rice papers

I know that I saw the rules for making a RICE-paper somewhere 
on the internet, but now I can't find it. Does anybody have the
adresse to a page with these rules?

Thanks in advance.
- -- 
Tommy Grav 
Email: tommyg@ifi.uio.no
WWW-Page: http://www.ifi.uio.no/~tommyg/Traveller.html
"Sooner or later the worst set of circumstances are bound to occur."

------------------------------

From: "The Druid" <druid@datatek.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 07:21:16 -0500
Subject: RE: Orbital Bombardment

> I am surprised nobody has mentione Heinlein's _Starship Troopers_ yet.
> Fire a bunch of armed to the teeth soldiers, mixed up with decoys, out
of
> launch tubes, presumably after suppressing any planetary defenses.
> 
> A very good look at what the future foot soldier may have to go through.
Being a great fan of heinlein, I have always incorporated drop troops in
my games.
However, using Traveller/striker rules, about the only way to make a good
analogous game using drop troops is if you have contest between two widely
dispersed, poor in resources enemies; otherwise, the commando tactics as
covered in the novel do not make a whole lot of sense.

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 08:49:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Jet Trivia (Td V96#81)

"Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com> wrote:
> On 11 Jun 96 at 8:31, Albert Lowe spewed:
> > On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Jamie Young wrote:
> > > >Trivia fact.  The Komet was test flown by a woman.  Can't remember her name
> > > Hannah Reich (?)
> 
> Reisch, I believe.  Later became famous for landing a Fieseler Storch 
> on the Unter den Linden during the last days of the war in Berlin, 
> through Russian air superiority, flak, and heavy shelling.  Did it to 
> fly in a general to be decorated for something...

She flew herself (and someone else relatively important, whose name escapes
me at the moment) to visit Hitler in the Reich Chancellery bunker and
reassure him of their personal loyalty to him and the party.  Although unable
to leave the way they got in, Reisch and her companion subsequently escaped
from Berlin and the Soviets.

Interesting book of the week (no matter if you belive his thesis or not):
_The Murder of Adolf Hitler_ (Hugh Thomas?).  I never new Hitler had
Parkinson's disease (Parkinson's was un-treatable in the 1940's, and gave
him only a few more years to live by 1945 in any event).


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  "The year 1935 will go down in history.  For the first time,
                   a civilized nation has full gun registration.  Our streets
                   will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world
                   will follow our lead into the future."     --- Adolf Hitler

------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:06:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Medic vs First Aid

At 04:34 PM 6/11/96 MS, Steve Charlton wrote:
>Rob Miracle, our most kind and forgiving List Master, did say:
>>I think "First Aid" as a skill is a bad idea all together.  Use 
>>Medic for what  its for:

>>We are discussing the skill list for Traveller not any other system.
>>Traveller has a way of doing things and you can't fractionalize a skill like
>>this.  This would be like taking Vehicle(ground) and breaking it into:
>>Sedan, 4x4, race-car. 
>
>I really have to disagree with this (is disagreeing with the listmaster a 
>dangerous thing?).  

    Naw, not at all.  This debate is healthy (pun not intended) so far.  And
if IG uses the ideas . . .

>You are comparing apples and oranges here.  Operating a 
>wheeled vehicle, whether pickup truck, sedan, sport-utility or family van, all 
>require basically the same skills and the same sorts of reactions.  You could 
>make an argument that offroad driving is different, but overall the wheeled 
>vehicles are very similar.  

>From a one point of view, its an apples and oranges thing, on another its
apples vs apples.   The point I was trying to make is that EMT's,
Paramedics, Nurses, Doctors, et al.  can all perform first aid.  EMT's and
Paramedics are not allowed to stitch up wounds however (in most cases).  All
of them can diagnose problems to some extent.  They all know how to perform
CPR.  What is similar to the car example is the base operations, turn
steering wheel left, car/4x4 goes left is the same.  Probably any one could
operate an Indy car at 55MPH.  The higher skilled driver can do it at 230MPH.

>I always look at First Aid as being trauma care; attemtpting to save the 
>patient's life by stabilizing the patient until better care can be found, or 
>until the EMT can get the info needed to give better care himself.  Medic, on 
>the other hand, takes the longer-term view of curing the patient.  This means 
>EMT/first aid is a far different  task (with different skills and instincts) 
>than providing long-term doctor-style health care. 

You make a good point, but consider this.  For someone to have Medic-1, the
ability to provide long term care, they have had to learn emergancy medicine
(which is currently required of almost all medical school programs I think).

That means that a Doctor or Nurse, who can provide long term curing has to
have strong first aid skills.  Not that there isn't a emergancy medicine
specialst who is better than a doctor.  Doctors are at least as good at
emergancy medicine as an EMT.

>What I could see is that a person with Medic-4 (a full Doctor) could use First 
>Aid at one skill level less than his Medic skill.  On the other hand, an EMT 
>could use his First Aid as Medic, but with a two-level penalty (minimum zero). 
>From a game perspective, we don't need both.  How does the skill used in the
game?  From a players perspective, it is only a first aid skill at varying
levels.  An "adventuring Doc"'s medic skill is only going to be used in
emergancy situations.  The long-term care you described will be reserved
primarily for NPC's and generally wont involve a skill check because it
takes place over down-time.  The check that matters is the one made by the
medic in the field.  We only need one skill.  Call it what you like:  First
Aid, or Medic, but we only need one for adventuring reasons.

My preference is to stay with Medic because of all the previously printed
materials.  Use the characters history to define exactly what the Medic-7's
abiltiies are.  Just remember that a "typical" docter will have a "medic-3",
a typical "specialist" will have a "medic-4" for comparisons.  That does not
mean that Mr. Medic-7 has a Dr's License.....  But he can be pretty gosh darn
good at fixin' up a blowed-up solider.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 08:58:08 -0400
Subject: Re:  FFS Sensors Design Question(s)

sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net> wrote:
> I have found that when I manually calculate the surface area of the antenna
> using the given antenna diameter in meters, I get vastly different values
> than what is shown in FFS. I used the formula of radius squared times pi.

So?  This is not an error.  Study the picture and read the captions on FF&S,
pp.50, which are intended to explain this to the reader.

There's no requirement that antenna arrays have to be circular dishes,
you know.  Many modern sensors aren't, and in the Far Future, I'd expect
more use to be made of conformal arrays (which don't even have to be vaguely
circular).

"Antenna Diameter" is the measurement of the baseline of the antenna array,
and the primary determinant of it's resolution (and therefore range).
"Antenna Area" is the measurement of the area of the antenna array available
for intercepting energy.  You need to have enough area to intercept enough
energy to be able to pull the signal out of the noise.  More than that
is gravy.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 08:58:08 -0400
Subject: Re:  FFS Sensors Design Question(s)

sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net> wrote:
> I have found that when I manually calculate the surface area of the antenna
> using the given antenna diameter in meters, I get vastly different values
> than what is shown in FFS. I used the formula of radius squared times pi.

So?  This is not an error.  Study the picture and read the captions on FF&S,
pp.50, which are intended to explain this to the reader.

There's no requirement that antenna arrays have to be circular dishes,
you know.  Many modern sensors aren't, and in the Far Future, I'd expect
more use to be made of conformal arrays (which don't even have to be vaguely
circular).

"Antenna Diameter" is the measurement of the baseline of the antenna array,
and the primary determinant of it's resolution (and therefore range).
"Antenna Area" is the measurement of the area of the antenna array available
for intercepting energy.  You need to have enough area to intercept enough
energy to be able to pull the signal out of the noise.  More than that
is gravy.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:40:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FF&S: Missing data on page 75

I have a copy of FF&S, 1st printing, that has the missing text on page 75.
I'm told that the missing data was supplied on a page insert, however I
never received an insert with this book. Could some kind person forward me
this data, either typed in or photocopied? Respond email please.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com
 



------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:06:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Medic vs First Aid

At 04:34 PM 6/11/96 MS, Steve Charlton wrote:
>Rob Miracle, our most kind and forgiving List Master, did say:
>>I think "First Aid" as a skill is a bad idea all together.  Use 
>>Medic for what  its for:

>>We are discussing the skill list for Traveller not any other system.
>>Traveller has a way of doing things and you can't fractionalize a skill like
>>this.  This would be like taking Vehicle(ground) and breaking it into:
>>Sedan, 4x4, race-car. 
>
>I really have to disagree with this (is disagreeing with the listmaster a 
>dangerous thing?).  

    Naw, not at all.  This debate is healthy (pun not intended) so far.  And
if IG uses the ideas . . .

>You are comparing apples and oranges here.  Operating a 
>wheeled vehicle, whether pickup truck, sedan, sport-utility or family van, all 
>require basically the same skills and the same sorts of reactions.  You could 
>make an argument that offroad driving is different, but overall the wheeled 
>vehicles are very similar.  

>From a one point of view, its an apples and oranges thing, on another its
apples vs apples.   The point I was trying to make is that EMT's,
Paramedics, Nurses, Doctors, et al.  can all perform first aid.  EMT's and
Paramedics are not allowed to stitch up wounds however (in most cases).  All
of them can diagnose problems to some extent.  They all know how to perform
CPR.  What is similar to the car example is the base operations, turn
steering wheel left, car/4x4 goes left is the same.  Probably any one could
operate an Indy car at 55MPH.  The higher skilled driver can do it at 230MPH.

>I always look at First Aid as being trauma care; attemtpting to save the 
>patient's life by stabilizing the patient until better care can be found, or 
>until the EMT can get the info needed to give better care himself.  Medic, on 
>the other hand, takes the longer-term view of curing the patient.  This means 
>EMT/first aid is a far different  task (with different skills and instincts) 
>than providing long-term doctor-style health care. 

You make a good point, but consider this.  For someone to have Medic-1, the
ability to provide long term care, they have had to learn emergancy medicine
(which is currently required of almost all medical school programs I think).

That means that a Doctor or Nurse, who can provide long term curing has to
have strong first aid skills.  Not that there isn't a emergancy medicine
specialst who is better than a doctor.  Doctors are at least as good at
emergancy medicine as an EMT.

>What I could see is that a person with Medic-4 (a full Doctor) could use First 
>Aid at one skill level less than his Medic skill.  On the other hand, an EMT 
>could use his First Aid as Medic, but with a two-level penalty (minimum zero). 
>From a game perspective, we don't need both.  How does the skill used in the
game?  From a players perspective, it is only a first aid skill at varying
levels.  An "adventuring Doc"'s medic skill is only going to be used in
emergancy situations.  The long-term care you described will be reserved
primarily for NPC's and generally wont involve a skill check because it
takes place over down-time.  The check that matters is the one made by the
medic in the field.  We only need one skill.  Call it what you like:  First
Aid, or Medic, but we only need one for adventuring reasons.

My preference is to stay with Medic because of all the previously printed
materials.  Use the characters history to define exactly what the Medic-7's
abiltiies are.  Just remember that a "typical" docter will have a "medic-3",
a typical "specialist" will have a "medic-4" for comparisons.  That does not
mean that Mr. Medic-7 has a Dr's License.....  But he can be pretty gosh darn
good at fixin' up a blowed-up solider.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:40:20 -0400
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #77

On Monday, June 10, Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Lastly, the only way this works is to have an MDrive that can get a
> ship from .1AU to 1AU in less than a day, and then out to 2AU for the
> jump.  If ship's can build up those kinds of velocities, then you have
> planet killers..in spades!  

I agree with you entirely (and I like your picture of J-drives). However,
I think you can get around the planet-killer problem through some simpler
technological mumbo-jumbo without resorting to stutterwarp or hyperspace.

Here's my idea (sorry for those that saw this before on X-boat):

M-drives consist of reactionless thruster plates and a mass-nullifying
"zeta field". With the field on, your "apparent mass" is changed so that
you go much faster, although your total *kinetic energy* never reaches
planet-killing amounts. With the field off, your ship would still be
moving in the same direction, only much slower (you might be able to run
on "thrusters only" in spacedock).

I don't really care how the thruster plates themselves work--they could
even be a reaction drive for all I care--but the planet killer problem
needs to be resolved. (BTW, it looks like thruster plates are going to
be based on some sort of gravitic technology that only works in-system,
according to the FFSlite web page).

Without a change such as this, thruster plates tend not only to create
planet-killers, but also to yield more kinetic energy than the total
amount of energy put into them. Note that HEPlaR rockets could be used
to satisfy the "free energy" problem but still are planet-killers in
their own right (even small free traders can torch cities from orbit--
small-time operators would not be permitted to use HEPlaR freely).

You might be tempted to simply say that the "zeta field" transfers
inertia, although you must be careful because inertia is proportional
to velocity while kinetic energy is proportional to its square. The
effects of relativity on "apparent mass" should also be considered. I
don't consider these complications insurmountable, although I've never
needed a complete scientific explanation to the field's workings. If
you rationalize the science behind it, you could use this to place
additional constraints on the drive as well (energy requirements, top
speed, etc.).

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 09:52:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #80

On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Daniel wrote:
> I think your analogy also applies to the debates on star ship design.
> Just why do I care that my tech 10 radio gear takes .000032 Mega watts?
> All I want to know and all my players want to know is "Does this ship 
> have a working radio?"
> 
> Certainly some gear heads just won't be happy without page after page
> of boring charts showing the power requirements for endless technical 
> dribble.  But when they try to explain how page after page of boring 
> technical dribble in chart form is realy a new 'simplified' system 
> it makes me want to just shake my head a reach for book 2.

   I just _have_ to respond to this.

   I'm pretty much in agreement with a lot of what's said, but I *love*
the tech rules, for one simple reason. THEY GIVE YOU A CONSISTENT SET OF
GUIDELINES FOR DESIGNING EQUIPMENT.

   This is a science fiction game, and it's impossible for GDW (or IG) or
anyone else to design and list *all* the possible equipment that would be
available in a universe with 15 different levels of tech and a
mindboggling set of possible societies. This way, any given GM could
design a piece of equipment and any other GM could pick it up and use it,
fitting it into their campaign seamlessly. (Look at the Dean files, for
example) One thing that used to bug me big time was some of the kludgy
equipment that would get designed by amateur engineer refs in the early
days of CT. The FF&S rules (which btw are OPTIONAL) fix all that.

   You're right, players don't need to know that a particular piece of
equipment consumes 0.00034MW and takes up .001 m^3 of space. But if the
question get's asked, you can give 'em the answer.

   I could also think of a number of situations where this knowledge could
come in useful. For example, the PCs are stranded in orbit after a space
battle, they've been left for dead and the fleet is leaving orbit. The
planet is uninhabited, and the players have no functioning PRKs. The
players have to get the radio working FAST. This means routing power, and
enough of it to run the radio with a wrecked power plant. You work it from
here...

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 07:00:37 -0800
Subject: Re: First Aid vs. Medical.

On 11 Jun 96 at 14:53, farrarb@vnet.net spewed:

> I've been reading this debate back and forth for awhile, and I've got 
> some thoughts on it.
> 
> First of all, I recognize that in RL (and quite possibly in RPG, too) 
> Doctor and Paramedics are *different* things.  If was in a party that was 
> in a lot of fights, I'd want a paramedic around. After all, i want to 
> live to visit the doctor.  Not that a doctor can't do those same things, 
> if he is the right kind of doctor (so your a podiatrist....can you take 
> out a bullet?)

Actually, since a podiatrist would have the same core training as a 
trauma doctor, probably...unless its lodged some place interesting 
like say, the base of the brain or something, in which case the EMT & 
the podiatrist are going to be looking for the services of a 
neurosurgeon...

An EMT isn't going to do it in most cases.  He's going to stabilize 
the patient, and let a doctor in OR do it, most likely.

> So here's how I use these skills.   I try to determine *how bad off* the 
> character is. For the case of light wounds, i don't sweat it.  Usually a 
> first-aid-0 or a Medical-0 will take care of this...(ie most ppl know a 
> little, and if we assume these are mostly military charactes, well, *I'd* 
> make it my business to know...)  If the wound is moderate to bad, i'll 
> let first aid stabalize the character, but he'll need further treatment 
> by someone who has 'medical'.  By my normal interpretation, I'll let 
> medical treat it, but it's not a 'first aid' type of treatment...it will 
> be more difficult and take longer to use the skill(that is a full 
> treatment takes longer than, here's a bandage, we'll get you to a doctor.), 
> unless the same player has both skills.
> 
> By this I mean that Medical allows you to actually treat the wound, fix 
> the problem, etc. If firstaid has been applied, then it is easier to 
> apply the medical (heal time may just as long).  First Aid's main purpose 
> is to stabalize, and let the character survive long enought to see a doctor.
> 
> So they aren't exact replacements for each other....As a player, or a 
> group, I'd want a couple of people with first-aid, maybe at moderate 
> levels -1, or -2, who could fix immediat problems (maybe bringing a 
> player back into a fight, or allowing him to escape) and a Medical-3, to 
> sew 'em up when they get home (and this could easily be an NPC)
> 
> This would give the PC's the option to have other skills...besides a big 
> medical skill, while still knowing that they saved their own butts (which 
> is always a gratifying experience:)
> 

OK, you make a somewhat convincing argument overall for a First Aid, 
but let's face it, even by your own definition, it would be worthless 
after about skill level 2.  Why can't a low level medical skill (1 or 
2), which does not qualify 1 to be a doctor be defined to do the same 
thing.

Stu

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 07:00:37 -0800
Subject: Re: Medic vs First Aid

On 11 Jun 96 at 16:34, Steve Charlton/Avalon Softwar spewed:

> What I could see is that a person with Medic-4 (a full Doctor) could use First 
> Aid at one skill level less than his Medic skill.  On the other hand, an EMT 

Are you kidding?  A doctor can't tie a tourniquet, as well as a 
paramedic?  A doctor can't monitor vital signs, administer CPR, etc?  

> could use his First Aid as Medic, but with a two-level penalty (minimum zero).  
> That is to say, Medic-4 could act as First Aid-3, but First Aid-4 would act as 
> Medic-2.

I'm sorry, but no EMT in the world is qualified to do surgery.  No 
EMT in the world is qualified to prescribe medication.  Higher skill 
levels in First Aid really wouldn't do anything beyond improving the 
chance that he tied that tourniquet off right.  Basically, unless 
you're looking at a low skill level, which can easily be duplicated 
by Medical skill, there is no reason for a First Aid skill.

BTW, I like your tag line... :-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 12:21:34 PST
Subject: Re: J-drives & M-Drives

ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch) writes:

> Lastly, the only way this works is to have an MDrive that can get a
> ship from .1AU to 1AU in less than a day, and then out to 2AU for the
> jump.  If ship's can build up those kinds of velocities, then you have
> planet killers..in spades!  
> 
> So you have to find a way to put a speed limit on MDrives.  I have
> come up with several ways to do that over the years:  
> 
> 1.  Interaction between Tplates and velocity. The faster you go the
> more energy it takes to go faster...a constant power in will result in
> acceleration decreasing toward a maximum limit (no physical
> rationalization).

Actually, this is the way a "pushes on the star/planet" type drive
*has* to work if you want conservation of energy to hold. The energy
you pump in is *directly* proportional to the change in your kinetic
energy (relative to whatever you are pushing on).

Only trouble is, simple calculations show that this winds up being
*very* inferior to a reaction drive.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 12:35:27 PST
Subject: Re: Aircraft: Single vs. Multiple Engine.

Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca> writes:

> Hi all.  Does anyone object to using this single engine vs. multiple
> engine cascade idea instead of jet vs. prop?  If not, I'll include it in
> my next skill list update. 

Nope.

BTW, with regards to your comments about whether or not this
distinction is an artifact of the way we train people, do recall that
many military (and some commercial) pilots learn on multi-engine craft
from the start.

This leads to some interesting jokes between the single and
multi-engine types. The single engine fighter jock shows off with some
fancy areobatics and say something like "bet you wish you could do
that". The bomber/tanker pilot replies, "Hey, I can do something you
can't..." The fighter pilot waits, does see much happen and finally
goes "Well?" The other pilot comes back with "I just strolled back,
used the john and got a cup of coffee".

More seriously, the multi-engine folks can't understand why anybody
would want to fly something where if one engine goes out, you're toast.
The single engine types can't understand why anyone wants to have all
those extra indicators to keep track of. :-)


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #85
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Traveller-digest          Wednesday, 12 June 1996      Volume 1996 : Number 086

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: On Skills
         2. Re: First Aid is to specific
         3. Re: First Aid vs. Medical.
         4. Re: Medic skill
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #80
         6. Ship Design, Skills, and other thoughts
         7. Re: Skill Specialization
         8. T4 & Gearheads
         9. LIGHTEN UP
        10. What is a skill
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #81
        12. Re: First Aid is to specific
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #83
        14. Re: FFS Sensors Design Question(s)
        15. Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #63

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 07:36:31 -0800
Subject: Re: On Skills

On 11 Jun 96 at 16:07, Tom Ellis spewed:

> As a long time referee, if I have the need for a skill not in the rules, I
> MAKE IT UP.  You see, its my game , I can do that :)
> 

Gawd, what a concept...  I'd never thought of this before.  :-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 07:36:32 -0800
Subject: Re: First Aid is to specific

On 11 Jun 96 at 14:28, Matthew McLaughlin spewed:

> Personally, I think some of these 3 and 4 layer deep hierarchies of skills
>  are one more intimidating complication which may scare away new players.  

I guess this is my fear as well.  But something like that as part of 
a supplement, might not be a bad idea.  Or maybe a series of JTAS 
articles...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 07:36:32 -0800
Subject: Re: First Aid vs. Medical.

On 11 Jun 96 at 14:23, derek stanley spewed:

> There's nothing like giving them the illusion of power and safty.  
> BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!  Sorry, sorry.  Won't happen again.
> 

:-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 07:36:32 -0800
Subject: Re: Medic skill

On 11 Jun 96 at 16:34, Mark Urbin spewed:

>   Wasn't Medic-5 Surgeon?

Actually a surgeon is defined as Medical-3, with a Dex of 8+

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 07:36:32 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #80

On 12 Jun 96 at 8:44, Noel Kelly spewed:

> Dear Folks -
> 
> Derek Stanley and Rob Miracle are discussing skill levels. One possible
> solution is to use cascade skills in the way they are used in the TNE rules
>  - that is, you have expertise in one skill in the cascade and a lesser
> knowledge of other skills in the cascade.

I agree with you to a point.  I guess I argue against First Aid 
because if you cascade every skill in the list (which is VERY 
conceivable, if you think about it), pretty soon, you've got about 
500 skills to remember (and teach players BTW), which all cascade off of 
about 60.  The idea is to attract new players.  You do that by 
building an elegant, easy to learn, easy to use system, along with a 
well developed background. 

Then later, you can add the 500 skills, new character classes, and 
complicate matters for the players you've hooked.  ;-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 10:12:26 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Ship Design, Skills, and other thoughts

Well, it appears that we have several different styles of Traveller 
players, and that they overlap to some degree.  There are people who like 
complex, moderate, and simple systems for ship design.  These three 
groups also exist for skill systems.  This is probably also true of every 
other system in Traveller.  

An interesting thing is that the people who enjoy complex ship design 
(for instance) are not necessarily the same people who enjoy complex 
skill systems (again, for instance).  

Me?  I'm one of the folks who likes to keep things simple, but I also 
appreciate the need of others for complexity.  It's great that Mr. 
Wildstar's system may be (will be?) included in the basic book.  If that 
is true, then I will be very, very happy.  (No offense meant to Mr. 
Golden - I like his system, too, but I love the idea of having all three 
systems (including the renamed FF&S) available.)  If things turn out the 
way they are looking to in terms of ship design, I'll probably use QSDS 
most of the time, FF&S Light once in a while (for important ship 
designs), and FF&S only once in a great while.

So, having lots of different ship design sytems is good.  But is this 
also true of skill systems?  I mean, heck, if it were possible, wouldn't 
that satisfy everyone?  

I'm thinking it can't be done smoothly, however.  Not without drastically 
changing the Traveller skills system.  Let's say the basic system has 
only top-level skills with a few cascades.  Medic-0 is first aid, etc.  
The complex system would either have tons of cascades (Medical is divided 
into First Aid, Nurse, etc.) or simply have tons of skills (Medic is one 
skill, First Aid is another).  Unlike with going from QSDS to FF&S or 
FF&S Light to FF&S, taking a character from one of these systems to the 
other would involve some translations.  

Examples:

Basic to Cascade:  My (Basic) Medic-1 would have to make a choice as to 
which cascade skill (or skills) she would want to have.  Instead of 
being mediocre at all medical skills, she would be mediocre at one 
cascade and very poor (skill level 0) at all others.  She looses ability 
in the translation.

Basic to Lots O' Skills:  My (again, Basic) Medic-1 would go from being 
able to perform emergency medical assistance to being less able to do so 
(if I have this system figured right).  The First Aid or EMT skilled 
people would be more proficient than she at this sort of action.  (And if 
this is not the case,then why have separate skills at all?  If one is a 
subset of the other, then keep them as one skill.)

As I (and others) have said before, my preference is that there be a good 
list of basic skills (something very like the complete skill list from 
CT, including all the Books and Supplements).  If more skills are needed 
in a particular campaign, the referee can add them.  


While there may be broad support for having a lot more skills, each 
individual extra skill is only going to be useful to a very limited 
number of referees and players.  Please, keep the basic skills system simple.


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 08:26:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Skill Specialization

>(Fears of diverging this into a Star Wars thread aside), Han Solo did
>manage to pilot that captured Imperial Transport with no problem, and
>Lando Calrisian (sp?) did destroy the death star with the Falcon.
>Granted, he did own it previously, but Lando has got to be the prime
>example of generalization (pirate, trader, business man, pilot, etc.).

Don't get me started on Starwars you'll never shut me up.  The point I was
trying to make is Han is specialized in YT-1300 (Milenium Falcon) doesn't
mean he can't do anything else just means thats what he knows best.

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 12:10:27 -0400
Subject: T4 & Gearheads

PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu writs:
> From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
> Subject: Hate/Love and Traveller the Next Error
>>From: That Computer Guy <darkstar@udel.edu>
>>: This is truly depressing news. We might as well just call it TNEv2 instead
>>: of T4. Hopefully MM or some other higher up will recognize this as the 1st
>>: step toward recreating the debacle the GDW produced & put a stop to it.
>>: Hopefully.
  If memory serves, this was about T-Plates vs. reaction drives.  I've been
trying to follow that thread in the 100 or so a day messages on the beta list.
My understanding is that:
a) By the Word of Marc Miller, T-Plates are cannon.
b) There will be reaction drives as well
c) T-Plates show up at either TL 11 or 12.  I forget which
d) The T4 reaction drives will not be the fuel hogs they were in TNE
e) T4 J-Drives will use CT/MT fuel formulas, not the TNE ones required by d).

> >Wow, some people just won't give up!  What's the problem.  There is
> >now a quick and easy system a al Books 2 and 5 as well as the possible
> >inclusion of a revised version of FF&S.  In theory everyone should be
> >happy.
> A quick and easy system?  Just where is this system?
> If it's posted on the internet I haven't seen it yet.
   If you haven't been following the gdw-beta mailing list, I'm not suprised.
Trust me, you wouldn't have wanted the xboat list flooded with that volume
of messages.

> The best part about the book 2 design system was that it
> didn't explain the technology.  The GM was free to create
> what ever explanations they wanted to explain what and
> how the MDrive worked.
   Simplicity was one the features, as well as the major weakness of book 2.
 
>>However, that isn't the case here.  Is your hate of TNE so great that
>>you won't allow any of it to influence T4?  And how can you even 
> Hate?  Maybe he just doen't want to see the same mistakes repeated
> again by a new company?  Is your *love* for TNE so great that you
> are blind to it's faults?

   TNE had it's major flaws (like Virus & only reaction drives).  It did have
some strong points though.  The character creation system was much stronger
than CT.  The task resolution system didn't drive GM's to pack asprin like
the MT system.

> >compare IG to GDW.  If IG did like GDW and not listen to our input,
> You're right, we can't compare IG to GDW.  But we *can* compare
> their mistakes!  GDW shot itself in the foot with TNE and many of
> us believe that IG would be doing the same thing by including the
> same type of unusible ship design system in the basic rules.
    Actually, GDW lost toes over the T$R lawsuit.  The typo ridden MT
didn't help either.  

>>then we'd be looking at HG 2.  As it stands, lots of things have been
>>reverse engineered, mechanics to match the story line, and ease of use
>>has been incorporated.  You can now create ships as quickly as Books 2
>>and 5 (and yes, this will be the initial stuff), and eventually all of
>>us gearheads will be able to get off by designing every nook and
>>cranny down to the damn glove compartment. 
> My point exactly!  
   Then what is the arguing about?  You got what you wanted.  Book 2 & 5
type design rules included in the main book.  The rules even include 
reactionless drives!

>Why do we need rules for including glove compartments
> in our designs?
  Because there are enough gearheads out there to make it worthwhile
to IG ($ wise) to do so.  There is also all the designs that will pop
up on the net for non-gear heads to print out and use with minimum 
hassle.
 
> >I'm sorry if I don't see a problem other than your attitude.
> Sounds like someone else has the attitude problem.
  
  [replace 'Dueling Banjos' sound track with 'Dueling Egos' theme]
> - -Daniel

> Thanks for the support Dan. You've already said most of what I would
> have so I'll just add some comments.
> 
> Darkstar; you guys have been pissin' & moanin' & cryin' & whinin' ever
> since T4 has been announced because you weren't getting what you wanted.

   There was a poll taken, and the results showed that most folks who
used all three design systems perfered FF&S.  It also showed that there
was a need for a 'Q&D', plug & play design system (like Book 2).
  That is what IG is putting out.  The Plug & Play rules in the main
book, and detailed, gearhead rules in a seperate book.  Don't buy the
gearhead book if that level of detail offends you.

> I repeat, the more T4 adopts from & therefore comes to resemble TNE the
> more people will identify it with TNE. And that'll be a big negative,
> for sure.
  If T4 is just a reissue of CT, why bother?  It has been 20 years, and
the RPG industry has learned some lessons (like it doesn't pay to argue
with T$R lawyers :-<).  There are some good features from TNE & MT that
IG should look to including in T4, as well as things that should be left
by the wayside.

- -- 
 Mark Urbin eclipse@ultranet.com  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy 
spot on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
Opinions are MINE!  All Mine!  Bwwwaaaahhhh!

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 10:00:56 -0700
Subject: LIGHTEN UP

At the rate you guys are going you'll end up killing each other over the web
long before the new issue of T4 is out.

Suffice to say there are things we all like and hate about all the traveller
systems.  What we need to do is instead of getting involeved in the classic
mexican stand off,  "I know you are but what am I?", figure out the good
points vs the bad points and reach somekind of happy medium.  No one will be
100% extatic about the new system but no one should hate it.

Personally I dislike, hell I HATE thruster plates, why?  There is no
scientific reasoning behind them but I'll live with them.

Forward Observer:  Lots of discussion on this, suffice to say those with any
military experience feel that this is an essential skill and should be in
the list.  I agree, who am I to argue with people who've actually been
involved in airstrikes and artillery support.

Orbital military operations:  Lots of speculation here, and I really don't
think any of us have practical experience on the field.  Hand's up all those
of you who've been involved in a combat orbital insertion?  None, I thought
so.  Honestly I think TNE had it right here.  (This'll get peoples backs
up.)  At TL12 (T4 baseline tech) you establish orbital superiority, gain air
superiority if you can, lets face it they've probably got far more gear than
you do, so this may take time, time you can't afford to give them.  So what
do you do?  Classic black ops stuff, destroy their communications, supply
and command structure and get men on the ground doing this before they have
a chance to orgainze a defence.  Orbital hot drops via drop capsules gives
greater suvivablity twenty troopers in one ship or twenty troopers as thirty
targets, chaff flares and PAD supression missles.  Besides that as a
parachutist myself the idea of being dropped from orbit is just too cool.

Skill Cascading:  Here we have a choice, put the whole thing together in one
neatly orgainzed book (note the words neat and organized), or farm the
skills out over a half a dozen supplements over a period of two years.
Personally I'd prefer the rule and character generation stuff in a single
book rather than scattered all over the landscape, but thats just a personal
thing.  I again like the idea of Cascades, it allows for specilization in an
area with out denying the player a level of general knowledge necessary to
survive.  The problem we're encountering is what's cascading and what's
nitpicking because of personal expertise?  THis is something thats going to
be hard to distance ourselves from because we can all argue a point till
we're blue in the face and still never conceed.

Starship Design:  As has been stated before and IG is going for it most
people prefer a slightly more complicated system when it comes to creating
starships.  Why?  Don't really understand it myself but I personally prefer
it to, there's a feeling of having accomplished something when you're done.
Three sets of rules to design starships is rediculous (sp) but a basic and
advance systems that provides players with design options is do-able.  This
way you can crank out the pirate ship in twenty minutes and spend hours
custom designing the players ship.  FF&S was a good system, poorly organized
and it needed a re-write but basically a good system.  That's the problem
with this, when you've written it, it makes perfect sence to you but what
about everyone else?  When the people at the office have been in on the job
since day one they understand it too and no matter how much you edit it'll
never make sence.

There's someting else I can't remember so I'll leave this at this for now.

Derek Stanley

Top Ten List of Things You'll Never Hear on the U.S.S. Enterprise-D

10.  "No, please, Data, go on.  I find your list of synonyms for 'extinct'
facinating."

9.  "Good work Counselor.  I you hadn't told us those aliens had hostile
intent, we would have been completely fooled by their plan."

8.  "Jean-Luc, since the ship is in no danger, and we're not about to die, I
want to tell you . . ."

7.  "The doohickey has gone all . . . funny, making that gizmo light up . .
. the one that means the warp engines are . . . you know . . . all messed up."

6.  "Captian's log.  Stardate . . . damn.  What's the stardate?  Number One,
what's today?  No, I know it's tuesday.  What's the date?  THE STARDATE!"

5.  "Tea!  Lemon Zinger!  Hot!"

4.  "Klingon's do NOT wear frilly underwear!  At least, not on duty."

3.  "Prime Directive?  We don't need on steenkin' Prime Directive."

2.  "Captian.  The aliens are locking their weapons . . . firing . . . a
miss.  Shall I open hailing frequencies so you can laugh in their faces?"

1.  "Ah, hell.  I'm bored. Forget the hailing frequencies.  Fire at will!"

Brought to you by E. Lois Palmer from Fredricton, N.B.

That oughta lighten your days up.

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 14:28:25 -0500
Subject: What is a skill

>From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
>
>important those skills are to the RPG itself.  I'm sure that there are
those out
>there that would admit that Medical-1 probably covers more "learned knowledge"
>than Slug Pistol-1 (or *all* of Firearms-1, for that matter).  Since combat

Only if you assume that Pistol-1 only gives the charator skill in being able
to point the weapon and pull the trigger.  A more realistic approch would be
to assume it provides the charator with knowledge of how to clean the weapon,
store the weapon safely, what type of ammo if using, possible how to re-load
ammo for the weapon, possible laws governing the use of the weapon, tips on
how to conceal the weapon while in public, limitations of the weapon, 
maybe a bit of training in combat situations.  

My point is that, like main stats, skills are very very broad in what 
they cover.  Try getting a concealed carry permit in Texas and you'll 
see what I mean.

- -Daniel



------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 14:28:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #81

>> > >Trivia fact.  The Komet was test flown by a woman.  Can't remember her
name

I'm sorry, but I'm getting so tired of reading all this mis information on 
experimental german aircraft!  The Komet was one of eight experimental
propulsion
systems tested at a secret artic air base.  The test pilot was an old guy named
Kringel.  I believe the other seven systems were named Donner, Blitzen, Danncer,
Prancer, Vixen, Dasher and Cupid.  Now that the truth has been told can be get
back to talking about Traveller!

- -Daniel


- -------------------------------------------------

>> Paramedics there, but lets face it a paramedic would never even consider
>> operating on a patient.  That's where medical comes in.  To say that all

Yes they would.  If the choice was 'watch injured individual die' and
'maybe save them by operating' I would hope they take the second choice.
I also think the main reasons they don't operate in real life are 
for leagel reason.  There's no reason a nurse or paramedic can't perform 
simple operations.

- -Daniel



------------------------------

From: Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 13:55:20 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: First Aid is to specific

On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, derek stanley wrote:

> i.e.  Pilot, jet, multiple jet, prop & multiple prop.  The basic mechanics 
> involved in flying a fixed wing air craft are the same reguardless of the plane. 
>  THe engines push or pull you forward, the increased airspeed over the wings 
> foil shape creates low pressure on the upper surface creating drag.  Honestly if 
> you could fly a cessna could you fly a lear jet?  Probably, might take you an 
> extra twenty minutes to figure out what all the extra dials are for but the 
> basic controls are the same and inspite of the fact the plane responds a little 
> differently you should be able to fly it.  Same thing goes for larger aircraft 
> still, it may feel like you're flying a mac truck but the principle and the 
> controls are very similar, more sophicticated but similar.
> 

This is a specific example that I would resolve through the difficulty of 
the task. Example: My friend Wayne is a pilot. His plane is a Piper 
Cherokee. If he were a character in my campaign and needed to fly 
somewere the difficulty would depend on the aircraft that he was flying. 
A piper Cherokee could be flown at no penalty. A Lear Jet would have a 
negative DM attached to it because it's not equipment he's used to. A 
single engine Cessna would have less or no DM because it's basically the 
same.

For medic the same is true. E.g. a Cardiac surgeon would have a negative 
DM applied to his skill if he was doing emergency trauma work. In this 
case the Ref has to figure out the background of the skill. E.g. A Navy 
character with Medic-1 and Gunnery-3 was probably a gunner who learned 
battlefield Medic but a Navy character with Medical School and Medic-3 
was probably the ship's medical officer.

Chris
- --
      __o          "All I was doing was trying to get home from work."
    _`\<,_           -Rosa Parks
___(*)/_(*)___________________________________________________________
Christopher Sean Hilton                           <chris@vindaloo.com>
                           For pgp key finger: <chilton@shoga.wwa.com>


------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 14:41:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #83

>>However, if you're a developing culture, see 
>>the Aztecs, Maya and Inca, and you lack surface metals in any kind of 

The Aztec technology stalled because they fully believed they were
all soon to die.  Their last leader welcomed the Spanish, thinking 
they were the gods who were coming to destroy them.  




------------------------------

From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 14:47:35 -0500
Subject: Re: FFS Sensors Design Question(s)

At 10:11 AM 6/12/96 -0600, Merrick Burkhardt wrote:
> 
>> Hmm could you not also have a decrease in the needed diameter too at higher
>> tech levels. From personal experience the optical range finders(Fire
>> Directors) used by the US Navy before radar, the lenses apertures were over
>> twenty feet apart. But refinements of optics at later TL's decreased the
>> apertures distances to less than half of twenty feet. The higher TL also
>> provided greater resolution and speed of calculation.
>
>No, not really.  The equation posted is a diffraction limit, so that's
>as far as the physics goes, you can't do any better.  What you may have
>experienced was the optics getting better.  In the atmospere "seeing"
>becomes an issue as well.  "seeing" is how good the view is through the
>goop that is the atmosphere :-)  Looking out to space from earth right
>now seeing is typically on the order of 0.1 arc second as a best
>resolution.
>

Ok thanks for your explanation. 

By the way does anyone know how GDW figures the Passive EMS array size? I am
trying to figure out the array diameter for 300,000km, 360,000km, 420,000km,
and 480,000km. Did they use the longest wavelength in the EMS or what.

Also what would be the range of array with a diameter of 300km, 3000km,
30,000km, and 1000AU?

By the way to what spectrum range is VLA in New Mexico tuned to?

In aperature arrays does anyone know the optimum angle of incidence is, plus
and minus and the side lobes angles?

>BTW, and optical range finder isn't the same thing as an aperture
>synthesis array.  What the range finder does is simple parallax.  You
>focus the two telescopes on the target, then a computer (used to be an
>analog one way back when) figures out the range based on the angle that
>the two 'scopes are pointing relative to each other... triangulation.
>
>If they were aperture sysnthesis arrays they'd have to actually add the
>signals together... 
>
>-Merrick
>

What are the differances between a aperture synthesis array and a phased
array as in a SPY1a or SPS-48?

Sinbad Sam


------------------------------

From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 21:56:36 +0200
Subject: Re:   Traveller-digest V1996 #63

>>>What do librarians get degrees in? "Information Science" used to be
>>>called "Library Science" or some such.
>>
>>They need no (academic) degree at all. It's helpful to have a "Master" in
>>some liberal arts (for example Germanist or History) but otherwise it's an
>>occupation you could learn for three years like a joiner or electrician.
>>
>b***s***! You can't get any library job above shelver in Virgina without a
>Masters of Library Science accredited by the American Library Association.

Excuse me, but I was talking about the situation in Germany. Perhaps this
wasn't clear from the quotes.

bye
- --
Stefan Matthias Aust // ...it's not the having, it's the getting
        http://www.kiel.netsurf.de/users/s/sma/


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #86
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 13 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 087

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: FFS Sensors Design Question(s)
         2. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #83
         3. re: Psychiatry
         4. Consistence Guildlines
         5. Orbital bombardment and planetary invasions
         6. Re: First Aid vs Medical.
         7. Re: What is a skill
         8. RE: Orbital bombardment
         9. RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #77
        10. FFS Sensors Design Question(s)
        11. Re: FFS Sensors Design Question(s)
        12. Zeta Field & Thrusters
        13. Re: Medical Skills
        14. Skill Specialization - can we have both worlds?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 16:07:05 -0500
Subject: Re: FFS Sensors Design Question(s)

At 02:06 PM 6/12/96 -0600, Dave Golden wrote:
>At 02:47 pm 6/12/96 -0500, sam thomas <sinbad@qrc.com> wrote:
>>What are the differances between a aperture synthesis array and a phased
>>array as in a SPY1a or SPS-48?
>
>        Phased array uses a bunch of "little antennas" closely spaced, and
>aims the beam by elecronically varying the phase between adjacent elements.
>

Actually the ones that I am familar used the properties of the 1/4
wavelength and 1/2 wavelength ie the capacitance, reactance and inductance
effects on the RF emmissions.

>        Aperture synthesis uses a bunch of antenna elements, not necessarily
>so small, to "synthesize" a large aperture. The smallest detail an antenna
>can distinguish depends on the aperture.
>
>        Example: I want a 1,000km wide antenna to get really small details.
>But I can't afford to build a single antenna that wide. So I put a 10m
>antenna at each end of a line 1000km long, and electronically synthesize the
>results. Now I can image things (more or less) as small as a 1,000km wide
>antenna, for the cost of 2 10m antennas. The difference is, since the "full"
>antenna has a much greater area to capture signals, it can see a much
>fainter signal than the two 10m antennas.
>--________________________________________________________________
>   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
>   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html
>
> 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
> the government - not the other way around.
>

Thank you for your answer/explanation.

Sinbad Sam
sinbad@dfw.net


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 14:14:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #83

At 02:41 PM 6/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>>However, if you're a developing culture, see 
>>>the Aztecs, Maya and Inca, and you lack surface metals in any kind of 
>
>The Aztec technology stalled because they fully believed they were
>all soon to die.  Their last leader welcomed the Spanish, thinking 
>they were the gods who were coming to destroy them.  

Perhaps you'd like to explain then why the Maya, Inca and North American
Indians all never got beyond the stone age.  Surely being indian doesn't
conveay a common death wish...  Get real, the Aztec's were masters of what
they had as were the Maya, just look at the archaeological record.  They all
built civilizations which rivaled those in Ancient Egypt, Greece etc.  They
just never had access to the raw materials with which to develop their
material culture any further.

Lets face it you'd think the gods were comming to destroy you too if your
people were dropping like flies of small pox, and the plague.  The tribes
you'd enslaved decades before were rising up against you and some
particularly strange humans with pale skin and fair hair were leading them.

Derek Stanley


------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 17:00:33 -0500
Subject: re: Psychiatry

>From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)

>2)  What about psychiatry?  Psychiatrists need M.D. degrees (in the

Only because current US law requires it of them before they can practice.

>As for straight role-playing, a psychiatrist could have unusual insights:

[Very interesting discussion by PCs snipped for brevity]

>need to be punished.  Then when they get close and their guard is down, we
>blast 'em with everything we have and run like hell!

I'm not sure I understand your example.  Are you saying the the Dr could
not make the above suggestion without an advanced degree in Psychiatry?

I don't see where such skill came into play.

- -Daniel



------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 17:00:27 -0500
Subject: Consistence Guildlines

>   I'm pretty much in agreement with a lot of what's said, but I *love*
>the tech rules, for one simple reason. THEY GIVE YOU A CONSISTENT SET OF
>GUIDELINES FOR DESIGNING EQUIPMENT.

Your point is very well taken, however, I disagree with the idea that 
only a complicated set of rules will give you a consistency.

For example, tech level is not the only factor that can determain 
size and weight of equipment.  The FF&S rules don't take into account
different races, inovative new technologies, religious requirements
or dozons of other possible explainations for deviation.

Granted, CT didn't take these factor into account either.  But because 
design system was so simple it took almost no time for the GM to adapt 
them.  In FF&S each part of the design stage is so intimately tied in
to the other parts that a change to one part drastically effects
how the other parts are used.

I'm not saying that FF&S is bad, only that it is not the only solution
to have a consistent game.

>mindboggling set of possible societies. This way, any given GM could
>design a piece of equipment and any other GM could pick it up and use it,

With CT this happened all the time.  I have dozons of magazines with 
published equipment and ideas.  

Remember, not every tech 14 radio has to have the same 
.0000034 megawatt power requirement.  

>   I could also think of a number of situations where this knowledge could
>come in useful. For example, the PCs are stranded in orbit after a space
>battle, they've been left for dead and the fleet is leaving orbit. The
>planet is uninhabited, and the players have no functioning PRKs. The

What's PRKs?

>players have to get the radio working FAST. This means routing power, and
>enough of it to run the radio with a wrecked power plant. You work it from
>here...

I'ld simply create some tasks for the players to roll against.  They would 
use Electronics skill, Intelligence and possible Education as modifiers.
I see no need to know the exact wattage requirements of the radio or for that
matter how many cubic centimeters it takes up.

- -Daniel


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 15:18:03 -0700
Subject: Orbital bombardment and planetary invasions

At 08:00 AM 6/12/96 -0400, Various listmembers wrote:

Roderick Elliot:

>Stefan Matthias wrote:
>>To
>>attack the world, transports will drop grav tanks and grav transports
>>carrying infantry. Because such a drop seldom will be unnoticed by the
>>defender and because the battle ships can't maneuver in such close orbit,
>>the first landing will be a contest between drop tanks and intercepting
>>fighters. 
>
>        Here's where I really start disagreeing with you: the next step
>would consist of the orbiting force suppressing the planetary-based defenses
>(assuming they are not foreced to retreat).  The big, obvious targets such
>as defense installations and other strategic targets would simply have rocks
>dropped on them (why waste a good nuke when a nice handy nickel-iron
>asteroid will do just as well).  The smaller or mobile targets would be
>dealt with by energy weapons and "smart telephone poles" and "smart
>crowbars"; guided kinetic-kill munitions. 

This is known as suppresive or prep artillery (or ortillery, if you prefer)
and is such a basic concept that my 5 year old niece understands it.  Your
targets are going to be communcation centers mainly; if you knock out his
commo, he's not going to be abel to coordinate his defences.

A prime target is the world's starport.. a lot of commo and sensors, usually
near the major settlement or capital.  The defender knows you got to take
it, so he's waiting....
 
>        Once all targets detectable from space are destroyed, *then* you
>start dropping in a *few* grav tanks & transports, with lots of decoys mixed
>in, and backed by lots of jamming.  The idea is to make feint attacks, and
>try and eliminate as much of the remaining defence as possible before
>sending in the main body of troops.  Once all the remaining defences that
>can be drawn out have drawn themselves out, *then* the troops are put on the
>ground, with the orbiting force continuing to provide fire support (directed
>by forward observers or not; it's up to you :>).

No, first you send in jump troops wearing Battle Dress and using fusion guns
to level the area and act as... wait for it... forward observers.  You
either force the defender to expose his missle positions early on, making
them vulnerable to orbital fire, or you face an early, on-the-ground battle
with a group of well equipped commandos.

Once a planethead has been seized; then, and only then, will you start
bringing down grav vehicles...  Aerospace fighters will have to clear quite
a corridor for the inward bound, and the defender has an excellent
oppurtunity to disrupt the invader if he can disabel transports on the ground.  

>        The idea here is simply that a) being at the top of the gravity well
>provides an immense advantage (free kinetic energy!) and b) wasting infantry
>is criminally stupid.

But that's what we're here for..  :)  Seriously, the highest priority in the
first few hours after an assult is to clear the area of the enemy.  One
lurker with a sniper rifle can cause irrepairable damage with one .12 CR
bullet.  This is the Infantry's job, and so it reamains, even in the Third
imperium.

Michael Bailey:

>I seem to remembering in Niven & Purnelle's 'Footfall' something similar to
>the 'smart crowbar' described.  If my memory is correct, the Yanks,
>sorry...US :) experimented with a 'Project Thor' in the late sixties/early
>seventies.
>
>Niven/Pournelle's weapon was similar - basically a crowbar with steering
>vanes and just enough electronic smarts to recognise a tank from above.

This is a good description of the beastie, though you can spoof them.. jam
its control frequency.. then get real close to the enemy lines..  Friendly
fire isn't.

Tom Ellis:

>I am surprised nobody has mentione Heinlein's _Starship Troopers_ yet.
>Fire a bunch of armed to the teeth soldiers, mixed up with decoys, out of
>launch tubes, presumably after suppressing any planetary defenses.
>
>A very good look at what the future foot soldier may have to go through.

Yes.. and no.  Heinlein's universe so glorified the grunt as to be a near
deification.  No artillery, no cavalry, nothing but the Mobile Infantry,
Saviors of Mankind!!!

- -Starship Troopers- had infantry carrying nuclear weapons!!  There is a much
better novel: -The Forever War- by Joe Haldeman, that gives a much better
look at both combat, and the Army.

# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 23:39:18 GMT
Subject: Re: First Aid vs Medical.

=> In MT good stats can turn someone who is a good with a skill into someone
=> who is very good with it.  In TNE good stats can turn someone who is poor
=> (ie skill level 1 ) in a skill into someone who is better than a trained
=> professional (skill level 4). 

In my CT/TNE hybrid campaign, I'm using the TNE skill rules but the calculation
of the final asset levels is done differently, however.  I prefer to *half* the
applicable attribute (rounding down) while *doubling* the actual skill value
(rounding fractions up) before adding the two together.  This puts more emphasis
on the SKILL and less on the STAT, while allowing the TNE skill rules to remain
"more-or-less" unchanged (there may be a few notable changes at low and high
skill levels, however).  But I can see your point....

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 23:39:23 GMT
Subject: Re: What is a skill

On Wed, 12 Jun 1996 14:28:25 -0500, you wrote that I wrote:

=> >important those skills are to the RPG itself.  I'm sure that there are
=> those out
=> >there that would admit that Medical-1 probably covers more "learned
knowledge"
=> >than Slug Pistol-1 (or *all* of Firearms-1, for that matter).  Since combat
=> 
=> Only if you assume that Pistol-1 only gives the charator skill in being able
=> to point the weapon and pull the trigger.  A more realistic approch would be
=> to assume it provides the charator with knowledge of how to clean the weapon,
=> store the weapon safely, what type of ammo if using, possible how to re-load
=> ammo for the weapon, possible laws governing the use of the weapon, tips on
=> how to conceal the weapon while in public, limitations of the weapon, 
=> maybe a bit of training in combat situations.  

I never said that.  I said "learned knowledge" and not "practiced movements".
While I don't have the Constitutional Right to own a firearm, I certainly have
the right to have an interest in them  8-)

Skills such as Medicine obviously rely mainly on memorized information while
Firearms relies more on hand/eye coordination.  As skill levels increase, it can
be assumed that these skills will increase in the fashion that their controlling
attribute dictates (ie: more study time spent in the library for Medical
students and more practice time on the range for Firearms enthusiasts).

This is where your theory falls apart.  At higher skill levels the shear amount
of medical knowledge grows nearly exponentially while Gun Combat is still
chiefly used as an actual physical skill (you can only learn so much about the
proper care & handling of firearms, how to clean them, and the legal
implications of owning such a weapon).

If I would have initially compared Medical-4 to Slug Rifle-4, my point might
have come across slightly better.  The only reason weapons skills are typically
"cascaded" in a role-playing game is that they are given a higher priority than
non-combat skills (ie: they have their own special rules).

=> My point is that, like main stats, skills are very very broad in what 
=> they cover.  Try getting a concealed carry permit in Texas and you'll 
=> see what I mean.

I'm from Vancouver so far be it for me to argue with someone from a state where
one third of all pickup trucks have gun racks  8-)

------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:18:17 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: RE: Orbital bombardment

> I am surprised nobody has mentione Heinlein's _Starship Troopers_ yet.
> Fire a bunch of armed to the teeth soldiers, mixed up with decoys, out
of
> launch tubes, presumably after suppressing any planetary defenses.
> 
> A very good look at what the future foot soldier may have to go through.
Being a great fan of heinlein, I have always incorporated drop troops in
my games.

        While I can definetely see drop troops being used, I'd think that
they'd only be used in the sort of situation where you'd want a high-value
target captured relatively intact (minus lots of bullet holes, laser burns,
and rpg craters :>).  If you've got a concentration of bad guys on the
ground, and don't care about collateral damage or property values in the
area, just drop a rock (or a few of those orbital anti-personnel weapons
somebody mentioned) on them...  The troops would only be used for
commando-type missions where it was important not to turn the target into
the bottom of a crater.

        Expecting militaries at the level of sophistication being depicted
to function like 20th C militaries is like expecting modern air forces to
use 17th-century wet navy line-of-battle tactics.
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:13:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #77

On Wed, 12 Jun 1996, Gerald S. Williams wrote:

> On Monday, June 10, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> Without a change such as this, thruster plates tend not only to create
> planet-killers, but also to yield more kinetic energy than the total
> amount of energy put into them. Note that HEPlaR rockets could be used
> to satisfy the "free energy" problem but still are planet-killers in
> their own right (even small free traders can torch cities from orbit--
> small-time operators would not be permitted to use HEPlaR freely).
> 
> 

Please excuse my ignorance here but what is the "planet-killer" problem? 
Are you refering to the fact that a fusion motor could be used to torch a 
city from orbit or that a well aimed freetrader starting out at Pluto's 
orbit and accelerating at 1G all the way could be used to destroy a 
planet. If this is the problem I don't think that there's any getting 
around it. It takes a finite amount of energy to boast a 
ship/missile/rock to velocities where if it even grazed a planet's 
atmosphere it would cause serious problems. In geological time it's a 
pretty common event to have largish rocks raining down on the surface of 
your homeworld. If I were the leader of a world with enough technology to 
build a system that would  predict and/or prevent such an event happening 
I would make it a high priority to build the system.

The fusion motor problem is difficult. In practice entropy says that most 
of the energy coming from a fusion motor or HEPlaR would be waste heat. 
If I didn't want my world to end up like Venus after a couple of hundred 
years I would make it illegal to use such a thing within my atmosphere. 
Just because it's illegal doesn't mean that people won't do it however so 
for this eventuallity you need to have enough teeth in the law to make 
the anyone think twice about it. The only way I can think of to keep this 
enforcable is with a big fleet of SDB's

As far as the ship/missile/rock at 0.1c problem goes you'd need to about 
the same thing in place to shoot down anything big enough to do damage 
and small enough to shoot down. 

BTW: Assuming the Imperium is 10000 planets big and has a written history
1000 years long there is a 1/6 chance that a rock large enough to wipe out a
whole civilization has crashed on an one of these planets within 
the imperium's written history. I'm extrapolationg this from the fact 
that it happened on Earth about 65 000 000 years ago or less.

Chris
- --
      __o          "All I was doing was trying to get home from work."
    _`\<,_           -Rosa Parks
___(*)/_(*)___________________________________________________________
Christopher Sean Hilton                           <chris@vindaloo.com>
                           For pgp key finger: <chilton@shoga.wwa.com>


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:30:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: FFS Sensors Design Question(s)

> I was wondering if anyone else has found the interesting issue with passive
> sensor design.
> I have found that when I manually calculate the surface area of the antenna
> using the given antenna diameter in meters, I get vastly different values
> than what is shown in FFS. I used the formula of radius squared times pi.

[table snipped]

Well, even the FF&S text explains that the figures for area are not for a 
unitary (one-piece) sensor dish, but rather an array of smaller dishes 
spaced apart to simulate the aperture of a larger dish (which enables the 
sensor to 'resolve' smaller objects at distance, but lacks the 
sensitivity of a single, large dish).  That's why there's a discrepancy 
between the figures for area given and pi * radius^2.

[snip]
 
> Then you can make for even greater error at various tech levels you can get
> even a smaller area than on the table. ie at TL 15 you modify the surface
> area by .025. 

The modifiers are there to take into the account the effect that 
technology advances have on sensor efficiency; at higher tech levels, 
smaller dishes are required for the synthetic aperture array-- hence, 
less area is taken up at higher TLs.  If you still have questions, feel 
free to reread the section in FF&S on passive sensors.  I believe that 
there is even a sidebar (with illustration) which explains this point.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: Wes Payne <n9548326@cc.wwu.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 20:40:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: FFS Sensors Design Question(s)

Thus spake sam thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>:

[at this point I shake my head in wonder that a discussion can begin, a 
 question can be answered, and understood, all in one edition of TML, all 
 before I even get a chance to throw in a reply.  No wonder it looks like 
 we're all flogging deceased equines.]

> Hmm could you not also have a decrease in the needed diameter too at higher
> tech levels. From personal experience the optical range finders(Fire
> Directors) used by the US Navy before radar, the lenses apertures were over
> twenty feet apart. But refinements of optics at later TL's decreased the
> apertures distances to less than half of twenty feet. The higher TL also
> provided greater resolution and speed of calculation.

Well, the diameter of the synthetic aperture array is fixed by simple 
physics, not technology.  Unless you want to increase the minimum size of 
objects that you're able to resolve (not a good proposition if you're 
trying to establish fire control locks), you can't move the dishes of the 
array closer together and expect the same performance.

Of course, this might be fixed by some sort of gravitic focussing 
arrangement, as is done with lasers, but I'll leave that bit to the 
physics and optics experts.

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Wes Payne, known to you as:  n9548326@cc.wwu.edu
Western Washington University -- Bellingham, WA -- The Great Northwet!  
"What is FUN?  Why is it usually colored BRIGHT PINK, and where does
 it go when JESSE HELMS comes around?" 
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 22:56:18 -0600
Subject: Zeta Field & Thrusters

On 06/12/96 at 09:40 AM,  "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
said:

>M-drives consist of reactionless thruster plates and a
>mass-nullifying "zeta field". With the field on, your "apparent mass"
>is changed so that you go much faster, although your total *kinetic
>energy* never reaches planet-killing amounts. With the field off,
>your ship would still be moving in the same direction, only much
>slower (you might be able to run on "thrusters only" in spacedock).

Ok, let's see if I've got it...

I've got a ship that masses 200 tonnes, and some sort of thruster that
produces a low acceleration, say .01g. 

I accelerate out of orbit at .01g with my "zeta field' off.  I turn
the "zeta field" on and my apparent mass drops to, say .2 tonnes, and
my acceleration jumps to, oh let's say 10g.  I build up a *healthy*
velocity, quickly travelling across the system.

Later, nearing my destination, I turn the "zeta field' off.  My ship's
mass jumps back to 200 tonnes and my actual velocity immediately drops
to what it would have been if I'd been
accelerating at .01g the entire time.  I flip the ship, turn on the
"zeta field" and *quickly* lose the rest of my acceleration. (No...I'd
still have to flip at the halfway point and decelerate, correct?)

If I ram a planet with the "zeta field" on, it collapes and my
momentum (the energy I transfer to the planet) is only what I'd have
built up accelerating at .01g.

...right?

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 13 Jun 1996 01:21:26 GMT
Subject: Re: Medical Skills

Responding to two different posts...

> EMT's andParamedics are not allowed to stitch up wounds however (in most
cases).  All
>of them can diagnose problems to some extent.  

>I'm sorry, but no EMT in the world is qualified to do surgery.  No 
>EMT in the world is qualified to prescribe medication.


My sister and brother-in-law are both paramedics (which in Alberta is a two
year course, plus required on-the-job training).  Both of them are _capable_
of stitching wounds, performing some emergency surgery, and prescribing some
medication.

In Canada, they would only do so in an emergency when there was no doctor
available (even over the radio) and it was necessary to save the patient's
life.

In the US, they wouldn't dare for fear of a lawsuit.  (In fact, travel in the
US poses interesting moral questions for Canadians used to our 'Good
Samaritan Act'.)  

In much of the third world, they would do so on a routine basis, doctors
being in short supply, and lawyers being even scarcer.  

My key point is that there is a world of difference between being capable of
doing something and being officially qualified to do it.  After five years of
working at BNR I was still not officially qualified to teach computers,
because I lacked a one-month course required by the Ministry of Education. 
Last summer I discovered that the Registrar at the University of Toronto did
not consider courses in microprocessor design as being computer courses, so I
was not qualified to take a specialist course in computer studies (even
though everyone else, including the prof, admitted that I had the requisite
knowledge).


(As an aside, one of the English teachers at my last school went as an aid
worker to Africa, and ended up doing surgery.  He started out just helping
the doctor, but there were so many patients that he eventually did the
routine operations with only a look-in from the doctor - who was working on
someone else.  And this is with a BA in English!)




------------------------------

From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Date: 13 Jun 1996 01:40:18 GMT
Subject: Skill Specialization - can we have both worlds?

We have the basic design system and FF&S, to keep two groups of players happy.

Could we also do the same with skill cascading?

What I'm proposing is that IG make it official that a referee can decide to
use cascade skills or no.  (Sounds obvious to us gray-haired players, but the
kids haven't learned this lesson yet.  Hey, many of them believe that
Nintendo SuperMario is a role-playing game!)

If you want a realistic hard-core game, you use the cascade rule.  (In which
you pick a field, and are at half-level for all other fields within the
skill.)

If you want to play space opera, you ignore cascades.

Admittedly, these two systems will result in different game styles, but  then
we all have different styles anyway, right?

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #87
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 13 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 088

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Skill Specialization - can we have both worlds?
         2. Signing off
         3. RE: Orbital bombardment
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #86
         5. Heat death of the universe
         6. RE Orbital bombardment and Planetary Invasions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 02:00:53 -0600
Subject: Re: Skill Specialization - can we have both worlds?

On 06/13/96 at 01:40 AM,  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob
Prior) said:

>What I'm proposing is that IG make it official that a referee can
>decide to use cascade skills or no.  (Sounds obvious to us
>gray-haired players...

IG can make it official or no, but once I buy the darn thing I'll do
with it what I want!  <bg> 

Yes, Yes!  You're right, they should put it in the book.

I don't worry too much about going back and forth from simple to
cascade either.  The GM and players can just work it out amongst
themselves.  "Ok, you've got a Medic-3 (simple) and you got your
training in the service..hum..that'll translate into...Trauma-3,
Surgery-1, Diagnosis-2, Pharmacology-1, etc, etc." <g>

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 00:10:12 -0700
Subject: Signing off

I can see the handwriting on the wall.

The faction whose priority is to resurrect TNE has won.

They've managed to convince IG to slap a thin veneer of CT
over TNE & market it as T4.

I was hoping that IG would have learned from GDW's mistakes
but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I have no interest in investing my time or money in supporting
TNEv2 so I'll be cancelling my advance orders for T4 products.

I'll also be cancelling my subscription to this list since MM
was the last hope for restoring Traveller & that hope has now
disappeared.

I had hoped that I could spread the word around here that T4
would bring back the magic that once was Traveller but now I'll
have to say, "It's just a repackaged TNE".

Phil

ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu



------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 02:16:52 -0600
Subject: RE: Orbital bombardment

On 06/13/96 at 09:18 AM,  Roderick Darroch Elliott
<gpvll@hk.super.net> said:

>        Expecting militaries at the level of sophistication being
>depicted to function like 20th C militaries is like expecting modern
>air forces to use 17th-century wet navy line-of-battle tactics.

What! You mean they don't? <g>

Actually, I'd sort of compare a B-52 bomb line as being similar to
line-of-battle..similar. <g>  

Speaking of drop-troops, I can see them being used to clean out an
hold a planethead until the regulars get down, to secure a target you
wanted to take, more-or-less, intact, as forward observers, and on
selective commando type missions.  

I used battledressed troopers one time as boarding parties in a
campaign that required ships to get close enough to actually grapple
and slug it out man to man. They launched across from their ship to
the enemy, hacked their way through the hull, and fought it out with
space axes (axe on one side, pick on the other, blaster down the
shaft) <g> 

Ok, this one was pure space opera, but we hadn't had any
"hack-n-slash" for a long time.  Everybody had a good time.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 10:49:13 +0100
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #86

Sinbad Sam said:

>By the way to what spectrum range is VLA in New Mexico tuned to?

It has a range of receivers, which operate from 300 to 50000 MHz.  It
can also be reconfigured, so that the effective diameter of the array
varies from 36 km down to 1 km.  The resolution (which radio
astronomerese is just the wavelength divided by the diameter) varies
from 850 arcsec (at 300 MHz in D array) to 0.05 arcsec (at 50 GHz in A
array).  There are other arrays which are larger (MERLIN has maximum
baselines of 200 km, I think VLBA starts at around 100 km and goes up
to 1000s).  All this stuff is on the web.  BTW radio telescopes are
unaffected by "seeing", so the best resolution (Global VLBI) can be
0.001 arcsec, and space VLBI will do even better in the next couple of
years.

>In aperature arrays does anyone know the optimum angle of incidence
>is, plus and minus and the side lobes angles?

Not sure what you mean by this; field of view?  Synthetic apertures
have a strange property which doesn't occur in single aperture
telescopes: they can only see structure up to the size sampled by the
smallest separation between the various radio dishes, i.e. anything
bigger will not be seen.

>What are the differances between a aperture synthesis array and a
>phased array as in a SPY1a or SPS-48?

If I understand this correctly, in a phased array the receivers can
point in different directions, and in addition can be "pointed"
electronically by fiddling with the phase delays between the
receivers.  I've never used a phased array, so I'm not sure of all the
advantages, although I suspect speed of tracking, and the ability to
look in more than one direction at once (by roatating the phase of the
signal) are two.  I remember my PhD supervisor saying that MERLIN,
which is a phase stable and real-time synthetic aperture could be used
for undetectable radar tracking, as the amount of power neccesary to
detect an aircraft is less than that coming off the palm of the hand.


Stewart Eyres <spe@astro.keele.ac.uk>

------------------------------

From: "V.A.G." <GREI5001@uni-trier.de>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 12:25:26 MET
Subject: Heat death of the universe

I think that many of you guys misunderstood what was meant by MM with 
the topic.
It's not the heat death actually happening right then (factually 
ending the game at the start), but rather the aspect of impending 
doom in another (maybe) 500000 years. The background temp of the 
universe is rising already, coloring space reddish, causing massive 
climatical changes on almost all worlds, maybe hyperspace distortions 
all over, causing Misjumps to be the rule rather than the exception. 
So rather than letting it all end with The Next Generation (pardon 
the pun), it is more likely to be a scenario of inescapable doom 
which is still a long time away from 
becoming THE END, but with already showing deadly effects.
The inhabitants of the area trying to find a way OUT of the Universe, 
into a new one.

There has been a 50 issue cyclus of a german Sci-Fi series which 
actually used this scenario (with the main protagonist ending up in 
the other universe by accident and trying to find a way back, while 
helping the races to transfer out the galaxy into the other universe 
(causing lost of new problems there), all the time fighting a cult of 
fatalists, who believe they will be reincarated in a new form after 
the fiery death, and thusly trying to speed the inevirtable process 
up even further by aquiring more stellar mass from elsewhere. Sounds 
well ahead of actual traveller tech, but assuming that this takes 
place well ahead of Traveller time, it should be logical that such 
means should exist by then.

In any way, it would be a fantastic new background for Traveller, 
with loads of new adventures.   
V.A.G.
- ------
"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children
no longer obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is 
evident that the end of the world is fast approaching." 
                    - Assyrian Tablet,c.2800 BC
- ---- 
- -"Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!!"
V.A.G.
- ------
"The Earth is degenerating today. Bribery and corruption abound. Children no longer 
obey their parents, every man wants to write a book, and it is evident that the end 
of the world is fast approaching."                     - Assyrian Tablet, c.2800 BC
- ------ 
- -"Don't hold me up: I am just barely ahead of insanity!!!!"

------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:28:27 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: RE Orbital bombardment and Planetary Invasions

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>At 08:00 AM 6/12/96 -0400, Various listmembers wrote:
>
>Roderick Elliot:
>
>>Stefan Matthias wrote:
>>>To
>>>attack the world, transports will drop grav tanks and grav transports
>>>carrying infantry. Because such a drop seldom will be unnoticed by the
>>>defender and because the battle ships can't maneuver in such close orbit,
>>>the first landing will be a contest between drop tanks and intercepting
>>>fighters. 
>>
>>        Here's where I really start disagreeing with you: the next step
>>would consist of the orbiting force suppressing the planetary-based defenses
>>(assuming they are not foreced to retreat).  The big, obvious targets such
>>as defense installations and other strategic targets would simply have rocks
>>dropped on them (why waste a good nuke when a nice handy nickel-iron
>>asteroid will do just as well).  The smaller or mobile targets would be
>>dealt with by energy weapons and "smart telephone poles" and "smart
>>crowbars"; guided kinetic-kill munitions. 
>
>This is known as suppresive or prep artillery (or ortillery, if you prefer)
>and is such a basic concept that my 5 year old niece understands it.  Your
>targets are going to be communcation centers mainly; if you knock out his
>commo, he's not going to be abel to coordinate his defences.

        Exactly.  Once you've attained orbital superiority you use your
positional advantage to wipe out any facilities of use to the enemy that you
don't care enough about to want to capture...  So you start dropping rocks
on them.

>
>A prime target is the world's starport.. a lot of commo and sensors, usually
>near the major settlement or capital.  The defender knows you got to take
>it, so he's waiting....

        This is a perfect example of the sort of target that you'd want to
capture relatively intact, assuming that you want anything on the planet
intact, that is...:).  And this is the sort of thing that you would want to
use troops for.  We're agreeing 100% so far.

> 
[snip]
>No, first you send in jump troops wearing Battle Dress and using fusion guns
>to level the area and act as... wait for it... forward observers.  You
>either force the defender to expose his missle positions early on, making
>them vulnerable to orbital fire, or you face an early, on-the-ground battle
>with a group of well equipped commandos.
>
>Once a planethead has been seized; then, and only then, will you start
>bringing down grav vehicles...  Aerospace fighters will have to clear quite
>a corridor for the inward bound, and the defender has an excellent
>oppurtunity to disrupt the invader if he can disabel transports on the ground. 

        I would think that suppressing enemy airpower would be part of
obliterating enemy targets with rocks, above.  Airbases, fuelling
facilities, and the like ought to be visible from orbit, and easy targets
for rocks, nukes, what have you...  Again, I see attainment of orbital
superiority as followed by the step of wiping out anything that you don't
want that could hurt your infantry, and I see enemy air defense as part of this.

        Basically, I would argue that you drop the PBI in only after
everything with enemy markings bigger than a Matchbox car that isn't sitting
on something you *HAVE* to take intact is at the bottom of a big smoking
crater...  It's guaranteed that you're going to miss something (the bad guys
will have course have dug in), but that's why you're sending in decoys, etc,
with the first wave of PBI.  Anything that rears its head at this stage gets
rocks dropped on it.  

>
>>        The idea here is simply that a) being at the top of the gravity well
>>provides an immense advantage (free kinetic energy!) and b) wasting infantry
>>is criminally stupid.
>
>But that's what we're here for..  :)  Seriously, the highest priority in the
>first few hours after an assult is to clear the area of the enemy.  One
>lurker with a sniper rifle can cause irrepairable damage with one .12 CR
>bullet.  This is the Infantry's job, and so it reamains, even in the Third
>imperium.

        Agreed.  I think that we're on the same wavelength here; only thing
is is that I saw the plan of attack in the original post as dropping
infantry _before_  the preparatory bombardment stage...

>
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #88
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 13 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 089

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Orbital bombardment
         2. Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters (Td V96#87)
         3. Re: Signing off
         4. Re: Orbital bombardment
         5. Zeta Field & Thrusters & Planet Killers (oh my!)
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #83
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #84
         8. Sticks and stones
         9. Re: Enterprise-D
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #81
        11. Re: Medical Skills
        12. Task/Skill Resolution for T4
        13. Reading Suggestion
        14. JTAS: What It Will Cover
        15. Looking for Gamers
        16. Re: Signing Off
        17. Re: First Aid is to specific

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: simonm@ramhb.co.nz
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 00:28 NZST
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment

>> I am surprised nobody has mentione Heinlein's _Starship Troopers_ yet.
>> Fire a bunch of armed to the teeth soldiers, mixed up with decoys, out
>>of launch tubes, presumably after suppressing any planetary defenses.
>
>        While I can definetely see drop troops being used, I'd think that
>they'd only be used in the sort of situation where you'd want a high-value
>target captured relatively intact (minus lots of bullet holes, laser burns,
>and rpg craters :>). 

While I treasure _Starship Troopers_ as one of my favourite Sci-Fi novels, I 
personally can't see anyone with half a brain being willing to be sealed inside 
a tiny capsule (claustrophobic hell) and then fired as an uncontrolled missile 
into space, through the nightmare of re-entry, and down through a hostile 
atmosphere where the locals are throwing everything in the panetary arsenal at 
them. Decoys aside, the chances of any survivors ( including the most die-hard 
rollercoaster fanatic ) being willing to do it twice would be virtually nil. 

My personal opinion is that the movie ALIENS go it about right, with the concept 
of a "Drop Ship". This is a highly manouverable, armoured shuttle capable of 
holding either troops or vehicles ( kinda like a space version of the C-130 
Hercules ). It has VTOL capability, and allows the options of delivery directly 
to the surface, or high altitude delivery of "Drop Troops" via parachute, 
grav-belt, or flying powered armour. Using a ship to re-enter an atmosphere 
would improve safety, morale, and comfort. And makes sense since someone has to 
land and pick up the troops later anyway. Armed Drop Ships could act as Airborne 
command posts, and provide fire support to the troops on the ground, as well as 
medevac services. 

And they're cheaper to operate than Heinlens disposable Drop Capsules, and don't 
require special tubes or other non-standard services on starships.

Thats my two cents worth,
Simon.

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 08:58:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters (Td V96#87)

ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch) wrote:
> > a mass-nullifying "zeta field". With the field on, your "apparent mass"
> > is changed so that you go much faster [...]
> 
> I accelerate out of orbit at .01g with my "zeta field' off.  I turn
> the "zeta field" on and my apparent mass drops to, say .2 tonnes, and
> my acceleration jumps to, oh let's say 10g.

You've got it.

It is very important to note that the "zeta field" generator
is properly called a "Bergenholm" (or just a "berg" for short).

wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                   "Dreams do not vanish, so long as people do
                                    not abandon them."  --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:05:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Signing off

At 12:10 AM 6/13/96 -0700, you wrote:
>The faction whose priority is to resurrect TNE has won.

>They've managed to convince IG to slap a thin veneer of CT
>over TNE & market it as T4.

>I had hoped that I could spread the word around here that T4
>would bring back the magic that once was Traveller but now I'll
>have to say, "It's just a repackaged TNE".

Phil, I am in the bring back CT camp and I don't feel the way you do.  I
don't see the handwriting.  Other than FF&S, I haven't seen anything that
resembles TNE, and things that are more CT like. 

Now for FF&S.  The "science" in FF&S was good, I never argued that point.
The problem with FF&S is "English".  It is poorly layed out, over uses
non-standard abbreviations, and generally makes life too complex -- before
the science.

What are we getting and what was learned?  We are getting three -- very
compatible -- design sequences.  One is a simple "You pick it -- you build it"
system very similar to CT Book 2.  One is more advanced similar to MT
Referee's Manual, again Chart Based, but more details.  The final is FF&S
that will hopefully be written coherently.

Also, some game critical things are being changed.  HEPlaR drives are still
there, but are considered low space tech (which makes sense).  But a
reactionless "Thruster Plate" drive pops in for the higher tech stuff.  What
it comes down to is I can still run around for a month with out having to
refuel.

But everything else still looks CT'ish.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Date: 13 Jun 96 09:07:09 EDT
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment

with all the talk of dropships just now, y'all oughta be aware of the Aliens:
Colonial Marine Technical Manual from Harper. A net-pal from another list wrote
the book, and it's great fun for the supposed 'inside' look at the workings of
the weaponry, unit makeup/doctrines and, of course, the UD-4J Cheyenne
dropship.....
It also goes into enough detail about the various squad-portable weapons and
support vehicles I'm tempted to run them through FF&S to see how they fare!

- -j

------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:03:31 -0400
Subject: Zeta Field & Thrusters & Planet Killers (oh my!)

Christopher Sean Hilton <chris@vindaloo.com> wrote:
> Please excuse my ignorance here but what is the "planet-killer" problem?
> Are you refering to the fact that a fusion motor could be used to torch a 
> city from orbit or that a well aimed freetrader starting out at Pluto's 
> orbit and accelerating at 1G all the way could be used to destroy a 
> planet.

Both. The first can only be stopped by not letting civilians with fusion
rockets anywhere near planets, space stations, shipping lanes, etc. This
implies that there is an alternative (likely one that is cheaper and/or
outperforms fusion rockets). The second can only be stopped if there is
some mechanism to limit the kinetic energy imparted to the ship.

There may be other ways to limit the ship's kinetic energy (e.g., speed
limits :-), but another common "given" in Traveller is high acceleration.
Without some sort of "mass neutralizer", truly *tremendous* amounts of
energy will be regularly applied to thrust. Find another way to harness
this energy and you still have a planet-killer. Worse yet, there has long
been a "free energy" problem, where M-drives attain speeds that cannot be
justified by the amount of fuel spent, (i.e., 0.5*(ship mass)*(speed**2)
is greater than the amount of energy spent).

> In geological time it's a pretty common event to have largish rocks
> raining down on the surface of your homeworld.

Meteors do not reach the speeds commonly achieved by Trav ships. The
planet-killers are likely very large meteors, not extremely fast ones.
They also cannot actively evade your attacks like spaceships can.

> If I didn't want my world to end up like Venus after a couple of hundred 
> years I would make it illegal to use such a thing within my atmosphere.
> Just because it's illegal doesn't mean that people won't do it however so 
> for this eventuallity you need to have enough teeth in the law to make 
> the anyone think twice about it.

This means nothing to a civilian ship willing to use its fusion rockets
to torch a city. You must keep ships with fusion rockets well away from
your planet. Yet in Traveller, civilian ships regularly land on planets,
dock at stations, etc. Therefore, they must not use fusion rockets (at
least not ones that are capable of that kind of destruction).

- -----
Eris Reddoch wrote:
> Ok, let's see if I've got it...
> 
> [summary: 200 tonne ship, 0.01g thruster. With zeta field apparent mass of
> ship is 0.2 tonnes & acceleration 10g. Turn off field and velocity becomes
> what it would have been with 0.01g thrust. Ram planet and field collapses.]

Precisely. And yes, you would probably turn around halfway.

An astute observer might notice that there is still an energy gap due
to the fact that kinetic energy increases with the square of velocity.
This could be addressed by having the acceleration drop off as your
speed goes up or by explaining it away through the nature of the field,
which could:
o somehow sidestep the KE=0.5*(mass)*(velocity**2) rule, or
o require extra energy to compensate for the difference (which will be
  shed as waste heat when the field is turned off).

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

From: Christopher Beattie <chrisb@mpgn.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:31:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #83

Derek Stanley wrote:

>At 02:41 PM 6/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>>>However, if you're a developing culture, see 
>>>>the Aztecs, Maya and Inca, and you lack surface metals in any kind of 
>>
>>The Aztec technology stalled because they fully believed they were
>>all soon to die.  Their last leader welcomed the Spanish, thinking 
>>they were the gods who were coming to destroy them.  
>
>Perhaps you'd like to explain then why the Maya, Inca and North American
>Indians all never got beyond the stone age.  Surely being indian doesn't
>conveay a common death wish...  Get real, the Aztec's were masters of what
>they had as were the Maya, just look at the archaeological record.  They all
>built civilizations which rivaled those in Ancient Egypt, Greece etc.  They
>just never had access to the raw materials with which to develop their
>material culture any further.
                                                                         
First of all, it would be illogical to put the Maya, Inca, North
American Indian and he Aztecs in the same explanation.  Each had
completely different situations.  Mayan culture was well on the
decline before the Spanish.  Inca cultures had lots of problems
with the rising continent, causing the rivers to sink lower and
lower destroying the irrigation systems which had to be re-built
again and again at no small cost.
 
And I wouldn't say the Maya never got beyond the stone age.
Merely that they had perfected a non-metalic society which
worked.  Evidence shows that they had clearly invented the
wheel for instance, (It can be seen on several children's
toys) but never used it as (1) the notion of riding beasts
of burden was not thought of and (2) going through mountains
and forrests is not conductive to wheels.  They never ivented
the arch either, but they managed to do a pretty good cheat
for their entranceways.  They prefected an extreemely good
calendar, charted the cycles not only of the sun, the moon,
but venus as well.  (For some reason in the Americas it was
venus that was the planet of war, not mars.)

>Lets face it you'd think the gods were comming to destroy you too if your
>people were dropping like flies of small pox, and the plague.  The tribes
>you'd enslaved decades before were rising up against you and some
>particularly strange humans with pale skin and fair hair were leading them.

Actually it had to do with their calendar system, which was passed from
one group to another.  Unlike other civilizations who saw cycles in the
days, months, seasons, the Maya expanded it to many many cycles.  When
they reset, a new creation occured.  The Aztects were going through such
a time and were expecting something to happen.  In addition, they already
had some legends about someone leaving to the east saying that he would
return.  The Spanish were just plain lucky.

The American Indian is another story.  But they didn't just roll over
and play dead either.  They had to be pushed, prodded, killed, etc.
to get them to leave.

|     _____         |Christopher Beattie |        P.O. Box 2310|
|  ___ |[]|_n_n_I_c |Tantalus Inc.       |   Key West, FL 33045|
| |___||__|###|____)|Development Div.    |Phone: (305) 293-8100|
|  O-O--O-O+++--O-O |chrisb@Tansoft.com  |  Fax: (305) 292-7835|
| #include <disclamer.standard.hpp>      | @ --- ride the wave |


------------------------------

From: jmg141@psu.edu (John M. Gardner)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:29:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #84

>Once all targets detectable from space are destroyed, *then* you
>start dropping in a *few* grav tanks & transports, with lots of decoys mixed
>in, and backed by lots of jamming.  The idea is to make feint attacks, and
>try and eliminate as much of the remaining defence as possible before
>sending in the main body of troops.  Once all the remaining defences that
>can be drawn out have drawn themselves out, *then* the troops are put on the
>ground, with the orbiting force continuing to provide fire support (directed
>by forward observers or not; it's up to you :>).

>        The idea here is simply that a) being at the top of the gravity well
>provides an immense advantage (free kinetic energy!) and b) wasting infantry
>is criminally stupid.

Having BEEN a grunt, I whole heartedly agree with you on point b. ;>)
This makes sence.  If you doubt it, just look at what we did in the middle
east a few years back.  Let the Air Force clean up everything we can find
(and some things that we can't) to really soften them up BEFORE sending in
the troops.  Yes, the troops still have to fight, but they can do a much
better job without worrying about enemy air droping big nasties on their
heads.  Besides, the humbling effect of having most of your high tech stuff
trashed has a decided effect on the defender's morale (they either give up,
or cop a really ugly attitude).  

___John
*     "a chicken is just an egg's way of making new eggs."
                          --- unknown

*      "any society which is willing to surrender essential liberties to
gain security shall likely have neither"
                        --- Benjamin Franklin


------------------------------

From: "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 15:08:02 +0000
Subject: Sticks and stones

Whilst you're at why not detonate a nuke in the atmosphere the EMP 
from that will cause a few problems too. better still just keep 
lumping it with rocks and things till they give up.

Sorry to see you go Phil.
Cheers
Bob

------------------------------

From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:20:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Enterprise-D

Derek Stanley wrote:
>
>Top Ten List of Things You'll Never Hear on the U.S.S. Enterprise-D
>
>10.  "No, please, Data, go on.  I find your list of synonyms for 'extinct'
>facinating."
>
>9.  "Good work Counselor.  I you hadn't told us those aliens had hostile
>intent, we would have been completely fooled by their plan."
>
>8.  "Jean-Luc, since the ship is in no danger, and we're not about to die, I
>want to tell you . . ."
>
>7.  "The doohickey has gone all . . . funny, making that gizmo light up . .
>. the one that means the warp engines are . . . you know . . . all messed up."
>
>6.  "Captian's log.  Stardate . . . damn.  What's the stardate?  Number One,
>what's today?  No, I know it's tuesday.  What's the date?  THE STARDATE!"
>
>5.  "Tea!  Lemon Zinger!  Hot!"
>
>4.  "Klingon's do NOT wear frilly underwear!  At least, not on duty."
>
>3.  "Prime Directive?  We don't need on steenkin' Prime Directive."
>
>2.  "Captian.  The aliens are locking their weapons . . . firing . . . a
>miss.  Shall I open hailing frequencies so you can laugh in their faces?"
>
>1.  "Ah, hell.  I'm bored. Forget the hailing frequencies.  Fire at will!"
>
>Brought to you by E. Lois Palmer from Fredricton, N.B.
>
>That oughta lighten your days up.

Thanks for the fun.  I personally was getting tired of Komet, Skill
Quabbling, and the such.  But you know, someone is bound to complain because
this is a Trav list.

BTW, you forgot
        "LaForge, take your time fixing those engines.  If the colonist's
die, well, they knew what they were getting into when they signed on, didn't
they!?!"


Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
    - Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
    - Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 07:14:06 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #81

On 12 Jun 96 at 14:28, Daniel spewed:

> I'm sorry, but I'm getting so tired of reading all this mis information on 
> experimental german aircraft!  The Komet was one of eight experimental
> propulsion
> systems tested at a secret artic air base.  The test pilot was an old guy named
> Kringel.  I believe the other seven systems were named Donner, Blitzen, Danncer,
> Prancer, Vixen, Dasher and Cupid.  Now that the truth has been told can be get
> back to talking about Traveller!

Funny, you just seem to be shouting about it...

 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 07:34:06 -0800
Subject: Re: Medical Skills

On 13 Jun 96 at 1:21, Rob Prior spewed:

> Responding to two different posts...
> 
> > EMT's andParamedics are not allowed to stitch up wounds however (in most
> cases).  All
> >of them can diagnose problems to some extent.  
> 
> >I'm sorry, but no EMT in the world is qualified to do surgery.  No 
> >EMT in the world is qualified to prescribe medication.
> 
> 
> My sister and brother-in-law are both paramedics (which in Alberta is a two
> year course, plus required on-the-job training).  Both of them are _capable_
> of stitching wounds, performing some emergency surgery, and prescribing some
> medication.
> 
> In Canada, they would only do so in an emergency when there was no doctor
> available (even over the radio) and it was necessary to save the patient's
> life.

OK, I stand corrected.  Still the range of things that an EMT is 
going to be able to do vs. a specialist (or even an Internal Medicine 
Doctor) is limited.

> 
> In the US, they wouldn't dare for fear of a lawsuit.  (In fact, travel in the
> US poses interesting moral questions for Canadians used to our 'Good
> Samaritan Act'.)  

You ain't just a woofin'  :-)

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 10:57:53 -0400
Subject: Task/Skill Resolution for T4

Greetings All:

Has anything been said so far about task resolution in T4? Will it be using
the system first proposed by DGP in the Traveller Digest waaaayyy back when
and then expanded through MT, Twilight and others.

If not, how will skills/tasks be resolved? The "Classic Trav" method?
Something different?

(BTW, I'm more in the camp of "more skills--the better". But remember that
once you purchase this puppy, there's nothing to stop you from adding or
substracting skills until your head spins!)

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)



------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 10:58:01 -0400
Subject: Reading Suggestion

Greetings All:

I'd like to recommend a line of books for Traveller inspiration. It even has
an apparently flat universe!

Take a look at the "Honor Harrington" books by David Weber. There are five (I
think) in paperback and a new one just out in hardcover. The titles are:

On Basilisk Station
The Honor of the Queen
The SHort Victorious War
Field of Dishonor
Flag in Exile
(hardcover, don't know the title)

...and are all from Baen Books in the US.

They trace the career of one Honor Harrington through (and out of) the Royal
Manticoran Navy. Although the technology is different from Traveller (it
seems to be a cross between C.J. Cherryh and Babylon 5 in some respects), a
lot of details on the ship structure, command, Marines, pinnaces, cutters,
battles, high tech vs. primitives, etc., will fit right into Traveller...

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)



------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 10:57:35 -0400
Subject: JTAS: What It Will Cover

Greetings All:

Interesting note: I got a message from Marc Miller. I had wondered what the
new JTAS would cover (only Mileux 0 or other eras as well). He indicated that
it would be "all Mileux friendly".

So, polish up your RICE papers, your notes on the Rebellion, your recipes for
soup in the Spinward Marches--we can keep **all** the eras alive through
submissions to JTAS!

(Gee--where are my notes adapting Jack Chalker's "Midnight at the Well of
Souls" to Traveller that I ran in 1978?)

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)

------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 10:58:06 -0400
Subject: Looking for Gamers

Greetings:

Anybody out there in a central New Jersey locale? I'm in Franklin Park,
halfway between New Brunswick and Princeton. I'm looking for folks interested
in participating in a Traveller game (using CT rules to start, then T4).

Thanks!

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)



------------------------------

From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 10:00:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Signing Off

Phil wrote:

>Subject: Signing off
>
>I can see the handwriting on the wall.
>
>The faction whose priority is to resurrect TNE has won.
>
>They've managed to convince IG to slap a thin veneer of CT
>over TNE & market it as T4.
>
>I was hoping that IG would have learned from GDW's mistakes
>but that doesn't seem to be the case.
>
>I have no interest in investing my time or money in supporting
>TNEv2 so I'll be cancelling my advance orders for T4 products.
>
>I'll also be cancelling my subscription to this list since MM
>was the last hope for restoring Traveller & that hope has now
>disappeared.
>
>I had hoped that I could spread the word around here that T4
>would bring back the magic that once was Traveller but now I'll
>have to say, "It's just a repackaged TNE".
>
>Phil
>
>ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu

Isn't this funny.  I was just talking to one of my other friends yesterday,
and he said he wasn't excited about T4 because it was simply CT with a
little spit & polish.  He is still hopeful about the project, but is worried
about the potential outcome.  He isn't as paranoid as Phil here, but he's on
the other side of the spectrum!!!

Phil never ceases to amaze me!!  Unless he's been privy to a lot of
information that I haven't seen, he's throwing away something he really
enjoys because he _THINKS_ it wont be any good.  This is amazing!!  I've
seen pessimism, but this is truly incredible!!  "I just know that it is
going to be aweful, so I'm quitting before I start!"  Now we know where all
those conspiracy theories come from . . . Phil must just be paranoid.

Phil, just in case you've stuck around for long enough to get this message,
let me be the second to tell you (I'm sure your psychiatrist was first)...
        "The world really is not out to get you!!!"


(If, perchance, all of this babble of mine is nonsense because Phil did get
a look at T4, I want to know how I can get that same look!!)


Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
    - Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
    - Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 17:16:31 PST
Subject: Re: First Aid is to specific

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> The whole argument here is related to the TNE skill system.  Medical and 
> First aid were two different thing.  First aid implied trauma aid, being 
> able to patch people up and we must admit there are some extremely skilled 
> Paramedics there, but lets face it a paramedic would never even consider 
> operating on a patient.  That's where medical comes in.  To say that all 
> Paramedics are the same is a gross simplification and in turn to say that 
> in order to become a doctor you had to progress though the Paramedic stage 
> is also just plain wrong.  They're two completely sepearte careers.  
> Granted a doctor understands trauma aid, but lets face it he's used to 
> dealing with things that are generally very different than what the average 
> medic encounters.

Another *major* difference between "medical" and "first aid" is that a
doctor/nurse type expects to be doing things in a medical facility,
with all kinds of gear and supplies handy. A first aider/paramedic is
used to having to make do with what he's got.

For example:

Player: "I think my ankle's broken"

Medical type: "Take him to X-ray... Oh. Right... Do we have splints? 
Okay, splint it and get him on a stretcher..."

First aid type: (Carefully feeling ankle) "I think it's just sprained.
We'll wrap it anyway, and I'll check it at the next break. Let me know
if the pain gets worse"

When someone is hurt, a first aid type is often better to have than a
medical type. *After* the first aid type has dealt with the initial
problem, then the victim is better off with a medical type if he needs
more treatment.

You want a medical type in sick bay. You want a first aid type on a
landing party. And trust me... most medical types don't have very good
first aid skills. Not much better than your average boy scout with a
first aid merit badge. I'd make Med-1 and First-aid-1 interchangeable.
After that, they diverge too much. ER staff have *both* med *and* First
Aid.




Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #89
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 13 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 090

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Skill Specialization
         2. RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #77
         3. Re: Medic vs First Aid
         4. Re: Orbital Bombardment
         5. Re: Orbital Bombardment
         6. Re: Medic vs First Aid
         7. RE: Orbital Bombardment
         8. Re: Orbital bombardment
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #83
        10. Re: Sticks and stones
        11. You can't just slap in new skills.
        12. Re: Signing Off
        13. Re: Task/Skill Resolution for T4
        14. Re: Task/Skill Resolution for T4
        15. Re: JTAS: What It Will Cover
        16. Simple vs. Complex Skills: A possible solution?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 18:04:07 PST
Subject: Re: Skill Specialization

Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@kiel.netsurf.de> writes:

> Probably the main reason for the success of fantasy roleplaying games set in
> pseudo Middle Ages against science fiction system is their simplicity.

Noty all are (or were) simple. And the ones that tried to be realistic
didn't do well. <sigh>. Still games like Chivalry & Sorcery gave us
nice reference works for when we *did* want to be realistic.

> And otherwise players would be only field idiots (Huh, that's probably not
> translateable. I mean, they're good at only one small subject and no nothing
> about all other subjects)

Look up "idiot savant". I suspect that's the English phrase you want.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 19:53:42 PST
Subject: RE: Traveller-digest V1996 #77

"Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com> writes:

> M-drives consist of reactionless thruster plates and a mass-nullifying
> "zeta field". With the field on, your "apparent mass" is changed so that
> you go much faster, although your total *kinetic energy* never reaches
> planet-killing amounts. With the field off, your ship would still be
> moving in the same direction, only much slower (you might be able to run
> on "thrusters only" in spacedock).

Doesn't help as much as you think. Now, instead of getting kinetic
energy for free, you are getting *potential* energy for free. And that
can be converted to kinetic energy thru gravity.

Simple example. I use your "zeta field" drive to lift a 100 ton rock
out to the 100 diameter point *ahead* of the planet in its orbit. When
I turn off the drive, and let go of the rock, it will be moving slowly
away from the planet. But, between the planet's gravity, and its
20-30km/s orbital velocity, that rock (only a few meters in diameter,
btw) is going to hit like a multikiloton bomb.

> Note that HEPlaR rockets could be used
> to satisfy the "free energy" problem but still are planet-killers in
> their own right (even small free traders can torch cities from orbit--
> small-time operators would not be permitted to use HEPlaR freely).

Nope. Consider. The exhaust from a Saturn V has *more* energy (at 6
million pounds thrust) than the exhuast from your free trader. But it
is confined to a relatively small area. As the Isp goes up, for the
same thrust, the exhaust velocity goes up AND THE MASS FLOW AND JET
CROSS SECTION GO DOWN. 

Sure, the ship can cause quite a mess by "hovering" on the drive flame
and use steering jets to "walk" the flame across thing they don't like.
But not anyplace where people can shoot back. And it's a tricky
manuever at best.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 19:31:48 PST
Subject: Re: Medic vs First Aid

Steve Charlton/Avalon Software Inc writes:

> I always look at First Aid as being trauma care; attemtpting to save the 
> patient's life by stabilizing the patient until better care can be found, or 
> until the EMT can get the info needed to give better care himself.  Medic, on
> the other hand, takes the longer-term view of curing the patient.  This means
> EMT/first aid is a far different  task (with different skills and instincts) 
> than providing long-term doctor-style health care.  That is not to say that 
> there is no overlap between the two, but the two jobs demand different skills
> and strengths.   In the case of a doctor, he can probably do most everything 
> EMT can do and just as well, but the doctor will be working under the handica
> of a much different work situation.  The doctor will be working to CURE the 
> patient, which is a much larger, longer and more comlex task than simply 
> stabilizing the patient.  An EMT might not be able to perform many of the 
> delicate and highly-skilled functions of a full surgeon, but he is trained in
> rapid triage-type decision processes, and trained to STABILIZE (not cure) the
> patient.

As a good example of this, pick up a copy of the *book* M*A*S*H. There
are several instances there of having to "retrain" new doctors to quit
being so "careful". Their job was to patch the wounded up enough to
survive being hauled to a real hospital, farther behind the lines.
Being too careful meant that another patient *died* while you were
"prettying up" the one on the table.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 19:11:15 PST
Subject: Re: Orbital Bombardment

Michael Bailey <mickb@thehub.com.au> writes:

> I seem to remembering in Niven & Purnelle's 'Footfall' something similar to
> the 'smart crowbar' described.  If my memory is correct, the Yanks,
> sorry...US :) experimented with a 'Project Thor' in the late sixties/early
> seventies.
> 
> Niven/Pournelle's weapon was similar - basically a crowbar with steering
> vanes and just enough electronic smarts to recognise a tank from above.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong though...

We never experimented with it. Project Thor was a proposal that never
got off the ground. Pity.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 18:50:43 PST
Subject: Re: Orbital Bombardment

Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net> writes:

>         Here's where I really start disagreeing with you: the next step
> would consist of the orbiting force suppressing the planetary-based defenses
> (assuming they are not foreced to retreat).  The big, obvious targets such
> as defense installations and other strategic targets would simply have rocks
> dropped on them (why waste a good nuke when a nice handy nickel-iron
> asteroid will do just as well).

There are *very* few targets that merit dropping an entire asteroid on
them. :-) Remember, Meteor Crater in Arizona was made by a body only a
few *meters* across. 

But you have hit on an important point. There's no reason to use nukes.
Not only are they expensive, but they dirty up territory that you are
trying to capture.

> The smaller or mobile targets would be
> dealt with by energy weapons and "smart telephone poles" and "smart
> crowbars"; guided kinetic-kill munitions.  

You'll also want bigger items for taking out the *really* hardend
targets. A 3 meter chunk of nickel iron weighs over 100 tonnes. At 9
km/sec, that's around a kiloton of impact energy. At 30 km/sec it's
around 10 kT. A few of those would even get the attention of someplace
like Cheyenne Mountain. :-)

BTW, an interesting bit of data. The ideal time for a force still
orbiting the star (rather than the planet) to launch a space-to-ground
strike is at local dawn! Why? Because then you get the planet's orbital
velocity *added* to the impact velocity for free. For Earth, that's
around 26 km/s. 

>From planetary orbit, there isn't any preferred time. Though if the
space junk isn't too bad, you may want the bombardment ships in a
retrograde orbit. It'll give a slight boost in impact velocities, and
*drastically* shorten their apparent orbital period (ie they'll pass
over a given spot on the ground more often).


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 19:40:06 PST
Subject: Re: Medic vs First Aid

Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM> writes:

> CPR.  What is similar to the car example is the base operations, turn
> steering wheel left, car/4x4 goes left is the same.  Probably any one could
> operate an Indy car at 55MPH.  The higher skilled driver can do it at 230MPH.

This reminds me of a little bit of "life experience". I've had all of
15 minutes experience driving a tracked vehicle (D-6 cat). But without
someone experienced showing me, I'd have taken a *long* time to figure
out some of the simpler "tricks" to driving one.

For those who haven't had the pleasure, you drive a tracked vehicle
with *two* throttles and two brake pedals. brakes control the track on
the same side. Throttles are center is "neutral", forward is forward,
and back is backward. Again, for the track on that side.

Newbie: turns by advancing throttle on outside track
Green: turns by putting inside track to neutral *and* braking
Expert: Turns by putting one track in reverse and the other forward.

Newbies turn in wide turns. Green operators turn in about the length of
the vehicle. Experts spin the cehicle around its center. :-)

I rather imagine that grav vehicles are closer to tracked vehicles than
to wheeled vehicles, but not especially close to either...


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 20:14:13 PST
Subject: RE: Orbital Bombardment

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> At 07:21 AM 6/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
> >> I am surprised nobody has mentione Heinlein's _Starship Troopers_ yet.
> >> Fire a bunch of armed to the teeth soldiers, mixed up with decoys, out
> >of
> >> launch tubes, presumably after suppressing any planetary defenses.
> >> 
> >> A very good look at what the future foot soldier may have to go through.
> >Being a great fan of heinlein, I have always incorporated drop troops in
> >my games.
> >However, using Traveller/striker rules, about the only way to make a good
> >analogous game using drop troops is if you have contest between two widely
> >dispersed, poor in resources enemies; otherwise, the commando tactics as
> >covered in the novel do not make a whole lot of sense.
> 
> 
> I always though so to and lets face it with modern airfoil parachutes eighty
> people can jump out of a plane at once and all land on the same fifty square
> feet of grass if they want to.  With orbital recon and airfoils accounting
> for some pretty wicked manouvering landing an entire platoon in an area the
> size of a football field is not unreasonable.

Which means that I can take them all out with one shot from the right
kind of artillery or even a decent sized mortar. Being spread out on
the ground makes you a *much* less tempting target. And it makes it
less worth wasting artillery rounds on you.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:40:01 -0700
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment

At 12:28 AM 6/14/96 NZST, you wrote:

>While I treasure _Starship Troopers_ as one of my favourite Sci-Fi novels, I 
>personally can't see anyone with half a brain being willing to be sealed
inside 
>a tiny capsule (claustrophobic hell) and then fired as an uncontrolled missile 
>into space, through the nightmare of re-entry, and down through a hostile 
>atmosphere where the locals are throwing everything in the panetary arsenal at 
>them. Decoys aside, the chances of any survivors ( including the most die-hard 
>rollercoaster fanatic ) being willing to do it twice would be virtually nil. 

Probably true.  But what a ride.  I've never actually read ST, but I get the
feeling.  I think the odds of survival are a little higher than you're
willing to admit.  

>My personal opinion is that the movie ALIENS go it about right, with the
concept 
>of a "Drop Ship". This is a highly manouverable, armoured shuttle capable of 
>holding either troops or vehicles ( kinda like a space version of the C-130 
>Hercules ). It has VTOL capability, and allows the options of delivery
directly 
>to the surface, or high altitude delivery of "Drop Troops" via parachute, 
>grav-belt, or flying powered armour. Using a ship to re-enter an atmosphere 
>would improve safety, morale, and comfort. And makes sense since someone
has to 
>land and pick up the troops later anyway. Armed Drop Ships could act as
Airborne 
>command posts, and provide fire support to the troops on the ground, as
well as 
>medevac services. 
>
>And they're cheaper to operate than Heinlens disposable Drop Capsules, and
don't 
>require special tubes or other non-standard services on starships.

Ya but all it takes is one guy with a SAM and you can kiss twenty marines,
their battle dress, the lander and any vehicals good-bye.  The odds of
hitting a paratrooper under canapy are pretty remote, it's the old golden BB
theory.  Throw every thing you've got at them and hope you hit something.

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:50:04 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #83

At 09:31 AM 6/13/96 -0400, you wrote:
                                                                         
>First of all, it would be illogical to put the Maya, Inca, North
>American Indian and he Aztecs in the same explanation.  Each had
>completely different situations.  Mayan culture was well on the
>decline before the Spanish.  Inca cultures had lots of problems
>with the rising continent, causing the rivers to sink lower and
>lower destroying the irrigation systems which had to be re-built
>again and again at no small cost.

True about the Mayan's.  Internal warfare destroyed them.  And the Inca
build irregation systems which, with a little cleaning, are still in use
today.  The cost didn't matter to the Inca's, it's not like they payed the
people who build those things.  All they had to do was feed them.
 
>And I wouldn't say the Maya never got beyond the stone age.
>Merely that they had perfected a non-metalic society which
>worked.  Evidence shows that they had clearly invented the
>wheel for instance, (It can be seen on several children's
>toys) but never used it as (1) the notion of riding beasts
>of burden was not thought of and (2) going through mountains
>and forrests is not conductive to wheels.  They never ivented
>the arch either, but they managed to do a pretty good cheat
>for their entranceways.  They prefected an extreemely good
>calendar, charted the cycles not only of the sun, the moon,
>but venus as well.  (For some reason in the Americas it was
>venus that was the planet of war, not mars.)

The Maya's were horribly advanced in their way's, no denying it and as for
stone work, they we masters of both mansonry and flint knapping.

>Actually it had to do with their calendar system, which was passed from
>one group to another.  Unlike other civilizations who saw cycles in the
>days, months, seasons, the Maya expanded it to many many cycles.  When
>they reset, a new creation occured.  The Aztects were going through such
>a time and were expecting something to happen.  In addition, they already
>had some legends about someone leaving to the east saying that he would
>return.  The Spanish were just plain lucky.

There was a lot more to it than simply saying it was a bad day on the
calender.  They were waiting for the return of Quetzalcoatl.  And as you've
said the Spanish were just plain lucky they ventured in on the right day.
The fact of the matter was there was a lot of things going on that we will
never fully comprehend.  What was this discussion about again?  Technology
or something wasn't it?

>The American Indian is another story.  But they didn't just roll over
>and play dead either.  They had to be pushed, prodded, killed, etc.
>to get them to leave.

Absolutly true again.  The fact is though because they're not a european
culture we tend to look rather dimly upon their technological acheivements,
which were substantial.  But thats a discussion I'd rather not get into cuz
you'll never shut me up about the indigenous peoples of the americas.

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:53:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Sticks and stones

At 03:08 PM 6/13/96 +0000, you wrote:
>Whilst you're at why not detonate a nuke in the atmosphere the EMP 
>from that will cause a few problems too. better still just keep 
>lumping it with rocks and things till they give up.

Because lobbing rocks down from orbit, and detonating nukes in the
atmosphere, while sound from a military point of view have a tendency to
produce counter productive results at home.  There's nothing wrong with
killing soldiers as far as the GP is concerned but killing civilians is
another story entierly.  And despite the best military coverups these things
have a way of getting out and once they do it becomes more and more
difficult for the military to do it's job effectively.

DS


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 11:59:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: You can't just slap in new skills.

Hi all.  Several people have suggested that a limited skill list is okay 
because you can always just add in skills later.  But it is not that 
simple.  Where do you stick the skills into the character generation 
system?  In 2300AD and TNE, this wouldn't  be too difficult to manage, 
but in CT/MT, you have to make up whole new tables for rolling up 
character skills.  Depending on the nature of chargen in MMT, we may be 
"stuck" with whatever the published skill list is.  If chargen is like 
CT/MT, then adding in new skills is going involve re-writing character 
generation systems.  I have a suggestion for the complex/simple skills 
debate, which I will discuss in the next post.

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:05:18 -0800
Subject: Re: Signing Off

On 13 Jun 96 at 10:00, Paul Walker spewed:

 
> Phil, just in case you've stuck around for long enough to get this message,
> let me be the second to tell you (I'm sure your psychiatrist was first)...
>         "The world really is not out to get you!!!"

Actually, people that paranoid are usually too paranoid to seek the 
help of a psychologist or psychiatrist.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:16:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Task/Skill Resolution for T4

At 10:57 AM 6/13/96 -0400, you wrote:

>Has anything been said so far about task resolution in T4? Will it be using
>the system first proposed by DGP in the Traveller Digest waaaayyy back when
>and then expanded through MT, Twilight and others.
>
>If not, how will skills/tasks be resolved? The "Classic Trav" method?
>Something different?

There's something I think we'd all like to know.  How the skills system
works.  Forget the skills themselves for now, how the hell do you actually
bust open a lock, use a computer, fly a grav sled or resolve combat?

>(BTW, I'm more in the camp of "more skills--the better". But remember that
>once you purchase this puppy, there's nothing to stop you from adding or
>substracting skills until your head spins!)

I agree totally I'd rather see a complete system to begin with rather than
having to hunt through a hundred different modules to find what it is that I
need.

"Now lets see where was that data on Imperial Podiatrist character generation?
Book 8?  No...  Book 52?  no  damn it.  HARRY!  WHERE'S THE PODIATRIST?  I
know he's on the corner!  In the manuals, where is he in the manuals?"

DS


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:18:18 -0800
Subject: Re: Task/Skill Resolution for T4

On 13 Jun 96 at 10:57, FKiesche3@aol.com spewed:

> (BTW, I'm more in the camp of "more skills--the better". But remember that
> once you purchase this puppy, there's nothing to stop you from adding or
> substracting skills until your head spins!)
> 

Actually, I'm turning an about face on this 1 as well.  I'd be more 
for a comprehensive skills list than a short truncated 1 to be added 
to at a later date.  Once new GM's get a hold on the task system, most of the 
skills are pretty self-explanatory.  The learning curve has a light 
slope to it.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:18:17 -0800
Subject: Re: JTAS: What It Will Cover

On 13 Jun 96 at 10:57, FKiesche3@aol.com spewed:

> Greetings All:
> 
> Interesting note: I got a message from Marc Miller. I had wondered what the
> new JTAS would cover (only Mileux 0 or other eras as well). He indicated that
> it would be "all Mileux friendly".

This is truly great news!  Another good decision by IG & Marc Miller.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 12:26:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Simple vs. Complex Skills: A possible solution?

Hi all.  I'd like to know what you think of this idea.  I think it might
provide a happy middle ground between those who want seperate skills for
".38 pistol, snub nose, TL8" as opposed to ".38 pistol, not snub, TL8" and
those who just want one skill called "Fighting".  

The idea is similar to Shadowrun (no! no! keep reading!  It's not that
bad!) where they have a fairly small list of basic skills and then allow
you to pick a specialization if you wish.  You can stay a generalist and
get level-2 skill in all firearms, or you can specialize so that you get
level-3 in pistol but level-1 in all other weapons.  

Basically, if you get skill of a particular level, you can stay a 
generalist and get that level of expertise in all aspects of the field, 
or you can specialize, getting (level * 1.5) in your specialty and (level 
*.5) in all other areas.  Specific values are open to modification, of 
course, but I'd like to know what people think of the idea in general.

This does not make skills more complex in any way.  All one does is give a
skill description and list a bunch of suggestions for specialties at the
end of it. The GM decides when a specialty applies to any given
situation.  For instance, Medical (to bring up a hot topic), might look
like this: 

Medical:  This skill deals will all aspects of caring for the sick and 
injured, including emergency medical treatment (blah, blah, blah)...
	Specialties:  First Aid, Surgery, Ophthalmology, etc...

When playing, the GM would determine if say Dr. Bob, Medical-4 
(podiatry), could use his skill at its specialty level (6) or would have 
to use it at his non-specialty level (2).

Example:

GM:  "Well, Toby has fallen down the well and broken his ankle.  What do 
you do?"

Dr. Bob: "Toby!  I'm coming to get you!  Hang on!"

GM:  "Okay, you lower yourself down the well.  What now?"

Dr. Bob: "I fix his ankle!  I roll a 10, +6 for my skill, and get a 16!"

GM: "Sorry, this is First Aid, you only get +2."

Dr. Bob: "But it's his foot!"

GM: "Well...okay...I'll allow it."

(Of course, another GM doesn't have to be so lenient... :-)

Comment?  Criticisms?  Ranting Flames?

Charles.

PS. Apologies to any podiatrists out there, didn't mean to be a 
heel...(groan).

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 13 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 091

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. RE: Orbital Bombardment
         2. Re: RE Orbital bombardment and Planetary Invasions
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #86
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #87
         5. Planetary invasion vs. planetary destruction
         6. Re: RE Orbital bombardment and Planetary Invasions
         7. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #84
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #87
         9. RE: Orbital bombardment
        10. Re: Signing off
        11. Re: Skill Specialization - can we have both worlds?
        12. Re: JTAS: What It Will Cover
        13. Re: Sticks and stones
        14. Re: RE Orbital bombardment and Planetary Invasions
        15. PPugslie attitude counter-rant
        16. Re: Medic vs First Aid
        17. Rock dropping again...no no no no no!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:27:20 -0700
Subject: RE: Orbital Bombardment

At 08:14 PM 6/12/96 PST, you wrote:

>> >However, using Traveller/striker rules, about the only way to make a good
>> >analogous game using drop troops is if you have contest between two widely
>> >dispersed, poor in resources enemies; otherwise, the commando tactics as
>> >covered in the novel do not make a whole lot of sense.
>> 
>> 
>> I always though so to and lets face it with modern airfoil parachutes eighty
>> people can jump out of a plane at once and all land on the same fifty square
>> feet of grass if they want to.  With orbital recon and airfoils accounting
>> for some pretty wicked manouvering landing an entire platoon in an area the
>> size of a football field is not unreasonable.
>
>Which means that I can take them all out with one shot from the right
>kind of artillery or even a decent sized mortar. Being spread out on
>the ground makes you a *much* less tempting target. And it makes it
>less worth wasting artillery rounds on you.

True.  Wasn't thinking in that direction.  I was actually pointing out that
with modern parachuting equipment it's possible to get everyone as close
together or as far appart as you want.  And with troopers in powered battle
dress with tac-com and such I really don't think the guy's on the ground,
unless they know exactly where you're landing are going to be able to put up
much of a fight.  One man in battle dress can easily wade through a half
dozen grunts providing none of them have panzerfausts.  Ain't battle dress
wonderful?

DS


------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 09:37:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: RE Orbital bombardment and Planetary Invasions

 All this discussion has me curious...
 What would the impact of one of these KKMs look like(how would you
describe it) and would it be a blast-type weapon or a narrorw impact(?)..

 Thanks.

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 11:53:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #86

>about 60.  The idea is to attract new players.  You do that by 
>building an elegant, easy to learn, easy to use system, along with a 
>well developed background. 

The well developed background should be left to the GM to create.
Classic Travellers greatest strength was that no explainations
were given.  All the rules were mere frameworks upon which the
GM could build consistant roleplaying situations.

>   TNE had it's major flaws (like Virus & only reaction drives).  It did have
>some strong points though.  The character creation system was much stronger
>than CT.  The task resolution system didn't drive GM's to pack asprin like

In what way was Next Errors character creation system stronger than Classic 
Travellers system?  Or do you mean that the system gave charators more skills?

>type design rules included in the main book.  The rules even include 
>reactionless drives!

Actually, my point is that the rules shouldn't give me reactionless drives!
I feel that explaining the technology should be left up to the GM as
part of their own campaign background!  If reactionless drives are 
part of IGs published background I have no problem with that.  Look at
what happened when GDW made a guess on computer technology in book 2.
The rules should explain how the MDrive is used, not what the MDrive is!

>  Because there are enough gearheads out there to make it worthwhile
>to IG ($ wise) to do so.  There is also all the designs that will pop

If that were true than GDW would still be publishing Next Error source 
books with page after page of nothing but pictures of grav tanks.

>   There was a poll taken, and the results showed that most folks who
>used all three design systems perfered FF&S.  It also showed that there
>was a need for a 'Q&D', plug & play design system (like Book 2).

That poll again!  62 people do not consitute 'most folks'.  Any survey that
asks people to respond is neither accurate or meaningfull.  Especially
if the sample group is small (such as internet users who like to read
Traveller mailing list).  

>> I repeat, the more T4 adopts from & therefore comes to resemble TNE the
>> more people will identify it with TNE. And that'll be a big negative,
>> for sure.

>  If T4 is just a reissue of CT, why bother?  It has been 20 years, and
>the RPG industry has learned some lessons (like it doesn't pay to argue
>with T$R lawyers :-<).  There are some good features from TNE & MT that
>IG should look to including in T4, as well as things that should be left
>by the wayside.

Good features?  MT was nothing more than an error ridden reprint of material
for CT that had appeared in JTAS and elsewhere.  With the expection of
blending background with basic rules MT offered nothing new to the game.

Next Error was a complete rewrite of the rules and a further mixing of
background and framework.  And while the T$R lawsuit hurt GDW they lost
because only a 'few gear heads' had any interest in their games.

- -Daniel








------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 11:53:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #87

>Perhaps you'd like to explain then why the Maya, Inca and North American
>Indians all never got beyond the stone age.  Surely being indian doesn't

Good point.  I can't explain this.  

>Lets face it you'd think the gods were comming to destroy you too if your
>people were dropping like flies of small pox, and the plague.  The tribes

Small pox and plague came after the Spanish arrived not before.  
The Aztec were already expecting death.  The Spanish just arrived
at an opertune moment (for them, not the Aztecs).

>If I would have initially compared Medical-4 to Slug Rifle-4, my point might
>have come across slightly better.  The only reason weapons skills are typically

I'll admit I was nit picking.  Logic would dictate that Medical-1 gives the
charator more knowledge than Pistol-1.  However, I was just pointing out
that skills are not so easily defined as to the limit of what knowledge they
do provide to the charator.  

>I'm from Vancouver so far be it for me to argue with someone from a state where
>one third of all pickup trucks have gun racks  8-)

You must have Texas confused with New York.  
The ratio here is more like 8 out of 10 :-).

>>I'm sorry, but no EMT in the world is qualified to do surgery.  No 
>>EMT in the world is qualified to prescribe medication.

Qualified?  Anyone in the world CAN proscribe medication!  Would
it be legal?  Certianly not.  Please don't confuse ablitity with permission.

- -Daniel


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 10:07:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Planetary invasion vs. planetary destruction

A common thread in the various ongoing discussion of orbital bombardment, 
jump troops, and so forth has been the question:  Why not just drop a 
Great Big Rock (tm) and be done with it?  As someone pointed out, being 
at the top of a gravity well gives the attacker a huge potential (pardon 
the pun) advantage; he can create havoc on the planetary surface simply 
by deorbiting random hunks o'junk in appropriate places.

The questions here, though, concern the attackers goals, and the "rules 
of war."  The question of goals is easier to address.  If I jump into 
Quafnome system with the goal of removing it as a source of materiel to 
my enemy, then (after dealing with local defenses) my task is simple.  
Gather N big rocks, push them over toward the mainworld, wait, watch 
fireworks, go home.  A typical world could be utterly neutralized -- 
cities in rubble, major transport hubs replaced by nice fresh craters, 
seacoast towns swept away by tsunamis -- using only a few dozen 
medium-sized rocks.  (Note that rock-pushing gets *much* harder under 
fuel-limited HEPlaR rules, but it appears that they're not canon 
anymore.  Whee!).

However, suppose my goal is to capture the world (more or less) intact? 
There are many scenarios where this would be the case; I may wish to use
the enemy starport as a forward base, or perhaps the system I'm invading
is one that has been taken by the enemy which i'm trying to liberate. 
This greatly diminishes the appeal of rock-dropping.  Instead, I have to
find a way to gain control of the world without massively damaging surface
installations.  This calls for a difficult surgical attack of the type
described by my brother Doug.  To reiterate, the basic sequence is: 

1. Gain space superiority.
2. Suppress ground defenses using ortillery.
3. Land jump troops to clear a landing zone.
4. Land grav combat vehicles to defend and expand perimeter.
5. Land support units (repair, medical, commo, and so forth) to
   enable offensive actions out of perimeter.

In a large attack, this same sequence might be playing out simultaneously 
at several points on the surface (analogous with the five-beach attack 
plan of the Normandy landings).

Note that, as Doug pointed out, there is an ongoing synergy between 
ortillery and ground troops.  The ortillery clears an area safe enough 
(barely) for the first jumpers to go in; these troops then serve as FOs 
for further bombardment as targets present themselves.

Now we come to the nebulous Rules of War.  One might imagine that, just 
as we've restrained ourselves from lobbing nukes at one another for 50 
years here on Terra, future societies might tacitly or explicitly agree 
that wholesale devastation of planetary surfaces using raw kinetic energy 
bombs is a Bad Thing.  One can imagine various War Departments making 
secret plans on how to push rocks around should it come to that, but 
being restrained by political considerations from ever actually doing 
so.

Anyway, just my inflation-adjusted $0.73...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 11:10:13 -0600
Subject: Re: RE Orbital bombardment and Planetary Invasions

At 09:37 am 6/13/96 -0700, you wrote:
> All this discussion has me curious...
> What would the impact of one of these KKMs look like(how would you
>describe it) and would it be a blast-type weapon or a narrorw impact(?)..

        A rod of depleted uranium, anywhere from 1 to 5 m long, and about
1/10 to 1/6 as wide. Fins on the back, simple seeker head on the front. No
"blast" as in explosives ... the kinetic energy of the impact will do quite
enough, thank you.
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 18:10 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #84

In-Reply-To: <199606121200.IAA10026@NS.MPGN.COM>

In message , owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM said:
>  
> From: "David Reed" <nacht@neosoft.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 22:16:03
> -0500 Subject: Re: Medic vs First Aid  [There can be only ONE...]

Just for the record, my vote goes to 1 skill, Medic, with First Aid simply
being level-0.

> From: Michael Bailey <mickb@thehub.com.au> Date: Sat, 13 Apr 1996 20:10:15
> -0900 Subject: Re: Orbital Bombardment
>  
> I seem to remembering in Niven & Purnelle's 'Footfall' something similar to
> the 'smart crowbar' described.  If my memory is correct, the Yanks,
> sorry...US :) experimented with a 'Project Thor' in the late sixties/early
> seventies.
>  
> Niven/Pournelle's weapon was similar - basically a crowbar with steering
> vanes and just enough electronic smarts to recognise a tank from above.

ISTR N&P being involved in the SDI project. It was probably their idea.


                      --------=====OOO=====--------
Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."

------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 10:50:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #87

At 11:53 AM 6/13/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Perhaps you'd like to explain then why the Maya, Inca and North American
>>Indians all never got beyond the stone age.  Surely being indian doesn't
>
>Good point.  I can't explain this.  
>
>>Lets face it you'd think the gods were comming to destroy you too if your
>>people were dropping like flies of small pox, and the plague.  The tribes
>
>Small pox and plague came after the Spanish arrived not before.  
>The Aztec were already expecting death.  The Spanish just arrived
>at an opertune moment (for them, not the Aztecs).

Actually that's not true.  If you study the effect of disease upon the
native population of NA.  I've written several papers on the subject.  We
find that there was a huge collapse of society in around 1000 AD, now we may
think that this is all well and good but when we look at it.  It was only a
short while before hand, can't remember the exact date anymore, that the
vikings first landed in Newfoundland.  Remember the black plague spread
across Europe like wild fire, and this in a fairly sedentry population, in
north america, where the average tribe travelled about hundreds or thousands
of square kilometers.  The potential for social interactions with dozens of
tribes is not unlikely.  This is 400 years before columbus set foot in the
new world.

DS


------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:08:02 PDT
Subject: RE: Orbital bombardment

Eris Reddoch writes [snipped]
>>        Expecting militaries at the level of sophistication being
>>depicted to function like 20th C militaries is like expecting modern
>>air forces to use 17th-century wet navy line-of-battle tactics.
>
>Speaking of drop-troops, I can see them being used to clean out an
>hold a planethead until the regulars get down, to secure a target you
>wanted to take, more-or-less, intact, as forward observers, and on
>selective commando type missions.  

This makes a distinction regarding the projection of current tactics
and technology. IMO, which isn't worth much, drop troops would have a
very good chance of making it to the surface. The size of the object
and the stealth features you build into them would greatly enhance
their survivability. 

Consider a 0 Millineum attempt to subdue a lower tech world (say, TL9).
They want the government and collateral damage to be low. Send in the
special forces, drop troops, to seize political objectives and hold
government hostage. The surprise that the technology difference would
cause would force the indigents to reconsider; especially a population
with little or no military/aggressive traditions.

Using today's concept of total war, yeah, blow em to pieces and rebuild
later. On planetary scales, I do not think this is feasible. The Soviet
Union's military developed a concept just prior to their break up that
total war as envisioned at the time was *unwinable*, so why fight it.
In limited war contexts, especially with technology differences, the
jump troop (in flaming capsule) will have its place.

I for one will have drop troop ships for this reason. 

- --norm fenlason


------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:12:44 PDT
Subject: Re: Signing off

>
>I can see the handwriting on the wall.
>
>The faction whose priority is to resurrect TNE has won.
>
>They've managed to convince IG to slap a thin veneer of CT
>over TNE & market it as T4.
>
>I was hoping that IG would have learned from GDW's mistakes
>but that doesn't seem to be the case.
>
>I have no interest in investing my time or money in supporting
>TNEv2 so I'll be cancelling my advance orders for T4 products.
>
>I'll also be cancelling my subscription to this list since MM
>was the last hope for restoring Traveller & that hope has now
>disappeared.
>
>I had hoped that I could spread the word around here that T4
>would bring back the magic that once was Traveller but now I'll
>have to say, "It's just a repackaged TNE".
>
>Phil
>
>ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu
>
This is incredible, since I was having the same feelings, only in
reverse. That I would be getting CT with a thin veneer of TNE. 

However, I am not so fatalistic and closed minded to shut out any
potential benefit that T4 has to offer. 

I will not cancel advance orders. I believe that Traveller represents
the industries best shot at science fiction RPGs. Therefore, I will
support T4 as I supported CT AND TNE.

- --norm fenlason


------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:14:10 PDT
Subject: Re: Skill Specialization - can we have both worlds?

>Admittedly, these two systems will result in different game styles,
but  then
>we all have different styles anyway, right?

here,here!!!

- --norm fenlason


------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:18:11 PDT
Subject: Re: JTAS: What It Will Cover

Fred writes: [snipped]
>(Gee--where are my notes adapting Jack Chalker's "Midnight at the Well
of
>Souls" to Traveller that I ran in 1978?)
>

Fred, I'd be interested in your Chalker stuff. I kinda grew up with his
writing.

- --norm fenlason


------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:26:04 PDT
Subject: Re: Sticks and stones

derek stanley writes [snipped]:
>Because lobbing rocks down from orbit, and detonating nukes in the
>atmosphere, while sound from a military point of view have a tendency
to
>produce counter productive results at home.  There's nothing wrong
with
>killing soldiers as far as the GP is concerned but killing civilians
is
>another story entierly.  And despite the best military coverups these
things
>have a way of getting out and once they do it becomes more and more
>difficult for the military to do it's job effectively.

Assuming a government responsive to its population.

- --norm fenlason


------------------------------

From: normf@wegener.com
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:35:34 PDT
Subject: Re: RE Orbital bombardment and Planetary Invasions

> All this discussion has me curious...
> What would the impact of one of these KKMs look like(how would you
>describe it) and would it be a blast-type weapon or a narrorw
impact(?)..
>
Just check out any modern tank gun footage versus other armored
vehicles and multiply by about a 1000. for non-armored targets, IMO, a
blast effect would occur as the vaporized solids at the point of impact
expand due to the energy transfer. Modern antitank projectiles actually
cause the armor they hit to turn liquid and fly about the compartments,
igniting fuel, ammo etc. I expect that the same effects would happen
with HVKKP, Hypervelocity Kinetic Kill Projectiles.

Research has been done on this and I suggest you check out:

http//info.arl.mil/EA/armorar.html

for some advance armor stuff (KKP).


- --norm fenlason


------------------------------

From: anwfh@orion.alaska.edu (William F. Hostman)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 10:57:02 -0800
Subject: PPugslie attitude counter-rant

Phil, Derek, and that other guy:

Your combattive, non-productive, and bandwith wasting posts are really
getting annoying. So, I have a suggestion or two:

1: If you don't like what's been done (and the basic rules are already
being typeset) with T4, DON'T BUY IT.

2: *GROW UP*!!!

Sorry to be so blunt, but y'all have gotten to the point where you are no
longer contributing, just trying to ruin the excitement for the rest of us.
Please, stop. Once, we heard. but (in phil's case) twice daily rants of no
content change are worse than useless.

Derek: We understand you are dissappointed with QSDS... but it will be
compatable with the other 2 levels of detail. Your non-rant stuff is good,
though.

all: as for T4 being re-packaged TNE, I doubt it. Co-evolved, and adapting
some of the better ideas, yes. Rework under the veneer of CT? not likely.

Is MT Traveller? Yes!
Is TNE Traveller? Yes... Broken traveller, but traveller.
Is T4 Traveller? yes... an extensively updated one.


William F. Hostman

Aramis@lunatic.ak.net



------------------------------

From: Rob Miracle <rwm@mpgn.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 15:06:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Medic vs First Aid

At 07:40 PM 6/12/96 PST, Leonard wrote:
>Rob Miracle <rwm@MPGN.COM> writes:
>
>> CPR.  What is similar to the car example is the base operations, turn
>> steering wheel left, car/4x4 goes left is the same.  Probably any one could
>> operate an Indy car at 55MPH.  The higher skilled driver can do it at 230MPH.
>
>For those who haven't had the pleasure, you drive a tracked vehicle
>with *two* throttles and two brake pedals. brakes control the track on
>the same side. Throttles are center is "neutral", forward is forward,
>and back is backward. Again, for the track on that side.

>I rather imagine that grav vehicles are closer to tracked vehicles than
>to wheeled vehicles, but not especially close to either...

Exactly, that is why Wheeled Vehicle and Tracked Vehicle are different
skills.  Some functions are the same, i.e. you don't want to drive one over
the cliff.  For the most part, knowing how to drive a Semi in no way
qualifies you for Bulldozer work (I can speak form experince growing up with
a father who built
a good chunk of I-75 through KY and have driven bulldozers, and back hoes and 
other large machinery a lot growing up.)  Tracked and wheeled are so
drastically different that only a little bit of the skills are portable.
However the skill set for driving a semi is built upon the more basic
driving skills of the family station wagon.  Thus different skill levels in
the same skill (while keeping it simple).

First Aid and Medic are different, but not enough to warrent the same skill,
particularly because it doesn't have a real game effect.  We don't complain
about the lack of Electronics Operations and Electronics Repair.  One is
just a more advanced level than the other.   If you are going to break down
one skill like First Aid and Medic, then you need to do them all.  Everyone
will like having a game with a 500 skills of which they all default to
something else.

Rob

- --
Rob Miracle <rwm@TanSoft.com>
Tantalus Inc.
Be patient or be a patient. -- Anton Devious


------------------------------

From: "Bruce Johnson" <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 12:21:13 MST7
Subject: Rock dropping again...no no no no no!

Gerald Williams brought up the old 'Killer Rock' debate...which I 
hope dies down.

Gerald, kinetic kill weapons on a grand scale are a serious skeleton 
in a closet that we only managed to keep partly closed so far on this 
and the other lists.

The list has been round and round and round about it. and from what I 
remember about the last flame fest the following conclusions rose 
from the dead horse:

1)	 Yes, these things are insanely simple to make, deploy and use.

2)	 Using them so badly hoses the whole playability of the game that 
essentially, you have to either ignore thier existence, or inject 
some incredible amount of social abhorrence so that people wouldn't 
use them routinely, sort of like nuclear, chemical and biological 
weapons here.  Note this doesn't stop them entirely, witness nerve 
gas in the Tokyo subway, but it does inhibitt warring factions with 
some trace of respectability from using them.

	Terrorists with a far trader and a lot of fuel, on the other hand...

	Knocking them aside isn't nearly that easy...a large rock at 0.1c
has a gawdawful amount of momentum...yould practically have to
vaporize it to deter it, depending, of course, where you detect it.

	I'm sure I'm missing some details here and there, but I'd really 
rather not have another 'rock-dropping' debate.



	

Bruce Johnson
Information Technology/College of Pharmacy
The University of Arizona
johnson@tonic.pharm.arizona.edu 


As if this place HAD any opinions...

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #91
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Traveller-digest           Thursday, 13 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 092

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #88
         2. Re: Skill Specialization - can we have both worlds?
         3. Re: Well of Souls Notes.
         4. Re: Sticks and stones
         5. Star System & Planetary Generation
         6. Re: RE Orbital bombardment and Planetary Invasions
         7. Starship Troopers
         8. Re: [T96#81] Observation skill
         9. Re: [T96#85] Rice Papers
        10. RE: M-drives & Zeta Field
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #90
        12. Re: Simple vs. Complex Skills: A possible solution?
        13. An optimistic message
        14. Dropping rocks for fun & profit
        15. Re: Rock dropping again...no no no no no!
        16. Re: Starship Troopers

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:15:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #88

>In any way, it would be a fantastic new background for Traveller, 
>with loads of new adventures.   

It will never happen.  'New Background' is an oxymoron when
used with Traveller.

- -Daniel


------------------------------

From: "Jonas Karlsson" <Jonas.Karlsson@Mail.Bostaden.Umea.SE>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:20:21 +1
Subject: Re: Skill Specialization - can we have both worlds?

>From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)

>If you want a realistic hard-core game, you use the cascade rule.  (In
>which you pick a field, and are at half-level for all other fields
>within the skill.)

>If you want to play space opera, you ignore cascades.

To me, this sounds *very* reasonable. Those who want it can use it (I 
will), those who don't can ignore it. Characters created for both 
systems are of equal proficiency once one adds/ignores the cascade, 
and have exactly the same amount of skills/levels.

>Admittedly, these two systems will result in different game styles,
>but  then we all have different styles anyway, right?

True. ;-)

I suppose it's too late, but you should still cc this to Marc 
Miller...

- --
| Jonas.Karlsson@baldakinen.umea.se          | I am a number,  |
| 100342.3455@compuserve.com - jonask@io.com | not a man! - 42 |

------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 16:24:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Well of Souls Notes.

Hi.   I second the request for Fred's notes on Chalker's quintology.  I 
think this would be neat (unless, of course, you were just joking?).  Has 
anyone read the latest trilogy by Chalker about the Wellworld?

Charles.

<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 13:27:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Sticks and stones

At 02:26 PM 6/13/96 PDT, you wrote:
>derek stanley writes [snipped]:
>>Because lobbing rocks down from orbit, and detonating nukes in the
>>atmosphere, while sound from a military point of view have a tendency
>to
>>produce counter productive results at home.  There's nothing wrong
>with
>>killing soldiers as far as the GP is concerned but killing civilians
>is
>>another story entierly.  And despite the best military coverups these
>things
>>have a way of getting out and once they do it becomes more and more
>>difficult for the military to do it's job effectively.
>
>Assuming a government responsive to its population.

Even if the government isn't responsive it will still have a huge effect
upon moral and public opinion and that can be devestating.  Besides that
propigating a war of this style, especially in an uncertian envrionment,
such as those contained in T4 or TNE can have counter productive results.
Imagine the reputation the Coalition would have if they worked in this
manner.  Imaging how difficult it would be to get even moderatly friendly
worlds to trust you and what do you do if you run into someone more powerful
than you?  If you've got a rep as the destroyer of planets, raper of worlds,
scourge of the skies and generally all around rotten guy, can you expect
better treatment from these people?  Probably not.  People don't forget that
kind of stuff.  And when it all comes around they'll do the same thing to you.

Operations of this kind were refered to as the BLACK WAR during the
rebellion and the effect on the civilion population was devestating.

DS


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 20:28:38 GMT
Subject: Star System & Planetary Generation

Can anyone answer the following?

Will there be any modifications done to the World Building tables, etc. for T4?
Most of the old data (eg: GDW's "Spinward Marches Campaign") list conflicting
UWP data such as low-tech planets with average (ie: 5-7) atmosphere &
hydrosphere ratings, orbiting an M6-V class star with *no* habitable orbit
possible (from the charts from either TNE or Book 5: Scouts, anyways).  I'm
getting tired of trying to explain to my players how/why a perfectly Terran-like
planet can exist orbiting a single sub-dwarf star.

Population codes should also be linked to surface area-- except possibly on high
tech worlds-- to prevent the existence of a planet like Rethe (2408) in the SWM
with a UWP of "E230AA8-8...323...G7-V".  According to the UWP this system has a
population of 30 billion inhabitants living on a rock with approximately 32
million square kilometres of usable surface area (and possessing only a trace
atmosphere & virtually no water).  This translates to an *average density* of
nearly 1,000 persons per square kilometre!  With a tech level of only 8, they
couldn't have created that many space-based colonies yet.  Perhaps it has
something to do with their Charismatic Dictator  8-)

I realize that Traveller has a higher frequency of habitable planets and did
stem from a system where planets were generated first (the rest of the solar
system had to wait for Book 5).  I'm just suggesting a population limit and/or
modifier based on planetary size.

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:40:00 -0600
Subject: Re: RE Orbital bombardment and Planetary Invasions

At 02:35 pm 6/13/96 PDT, you wrote:
>> All this discussion has me curious...
>> What would the impact of one of these KKMs look like(how would you
>>describe it) and would it be a blast-type weapon or a narrorw
>impact(?)..
>>
>Just check out any modern tank gun footage versus other armored
>vehicles and multiply by about a 1000. for non-armored targets, IMO, a
>blast effect would occur as the vaporized solids at the point of impact
>expand due to the energy transfer. Modern antitank projectiles actually

        If you're using depleted uranium, it also has the nifty side-effect
of being "pyrophoric" -- when it hits, it vaporizes ... and the vapor itself
is highly explosive.

        Of course, coming from orbit at 12 km/s that's not important ...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 14:21:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Starship Troopers

simonm@ramhb.co.nz writes:
> While I treasure _Starship Troopers_ as one of my favourite Sci-Fi novels,
> I personally can't see anyone with half a brain being willing to be
> sealed inside a tiny capsule and then fired as an uncontrolled missile 
> into space, through the nightmare of re-entry, and down through a hostile 
> atmosphere where the locals are throwing everything in the panetary
> arsenal at them. Decoys aside, the chances of any survivors being willing
> to do it twice would be virtually nil. My personal opinion is that the
> movie ALIENS go it about right, with the concept of a "Drop Ship".

While I personally hate these sorts of arguments (waste of bandwidth,
really), having just read Heinlein's book _Starship Troopers_ for the
first time a few days ago, I feel somewhat obliged to toss in my two
bits on this subject. Frankly, Heinlein does a great job in explaining
why drop capsules are much safer than drop ships. Granted, their
disposable aspect will also make them more expensive, but for those
dangerous drops where you just know the enemy is gonna be firing at
everything in the sky, you're a lot better off if you separate your
troops over a wide area so at least a few make it to the surface. Remember,
with the suit which each these guys is wearing, they're each like a
heavily armored combat helocopter with tactical nukes. One dude can
raise a lot of hell. Now, in situations where you've already destroyed
the enemy's surface-to-air threat, using a drop ship is just fine. But
to use it otherwise is to invite disaster. A drop ship will stick out
like a sore thumb on radar. A drop capsule, on the otherhand,
surrounded by dozens of decoys, is going to be a heck of a lot
safer. You want to take out that trooper, you'd better use a nuke,
because you're not gonna find him otherwise.

I'm gonna quote two paragraphs just to hammer in this point. These
are from only a few pages into the book, by the way. Heinlein puts
you into the thick but quick.

   The outer shell burned away and sloughed off-- unevenly, for
   I tumbled. Then the rest of it went and I straightened out.
   The turbulence brakes of the second shell bit in and the ride
   got rough... and still rougher as they burned off one at a
   time and the second shell began to go to pieces. One of the
   things that helps a capsule trooper to live long enough to
   draw a pension is that the skins peeling off his capsule not
   only slow him down, they also fill the sky over the target
   area with so much junk that radar picks up reflections from
   dozens of targets for each man in the drop, any one of which
   could be a man, or a bomb, or anything. It's enough to give
   a ballistic computer nervous breakdowns-- and does.
      To add to the fun, your ship lays a series of dummy eggs
   in the seconds immediately following your drop, dummies that
   will fall faster because they don't slough. They get under
   you, explode, throw out "window," even operate as transponders,
   rocket sideways, and do other things to add to the confusion
   of your reception committee on the ground.

In short, it's a great book, and it's not just about combat and
military life. Heinlein also gives the reader a good dose of
human behavioral and political philosophy, including an exposition
by one of the protagonist's classroom instructors as to the reasons
why the democracies of the 20th century self-destructed due to a
flawed social theory. As for aliens, Heinlein puts humanity at war
with a race of bugs which were probably the inspiration for 2300AD's
Kafer, so if you're a 2300AD player, you'll probably like the book
on that count besides all the others. But I digress. It's a good
read. 'Nuff said.

jimv@empirenet.com

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 17:17:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#81] Observation skill

 ::>                             Attributes are good for things that are common
 ::>to a lot of things like using Int to look for clues (frankly an observation
 ::>isnt a skill but a function of intellegence -- another argument for another
 ::>day.  I have never seen a "Observation Class" offered at a school).

 I have - the Police Academy.  In fact, there are two such classes,
 a basic one for the uniformed officer who has to be able to
 observe the key information in an incident, and a more advanced
 one for the detective, who has to look for clues for an incident
 that happened out of direct observation.

 Other places where I would expect classes in observation to be
 given would include Intelligence (Field Operative) training, and
 Counterintelligence (Field Operative) training.  I'm sure that
 others can thing of other places, and I'm sure that there are many
 occasions where observation training is not explicitly given, but
 is included in some other training - medicine or archaeology
 suggest themselves to me.

 Think about it - if you ask six random witnesses about a car
 accident (don't give them opportunity to compare stories) you'll
 get six different stories that will be difficult to reconcile.
 But ask six random _cops_ that witnessed the same accident (don't
 give them a chance to compare stories, either), and they'll agree
 pretty closely. It's been tested. The difference is that the cops
 have been trained to observe.

 Even a hundred years ago it was known - (from Sir Arthur Conan
 Doyle, "A Scandal in Bohemia"):

        "I could not help laughing at the ease with which he
        explained his process of deduction. 'When I hear you give
        your reasons,' I remarked, 'the thing always appears to me
        to be so ridiculously simple that I could easily do it
        myself, though at each successive instance of your
        reasoning I am baffled until you explain your process.  And
        yet I believe that my eyes are as good as yours.'

        "'Quite so,' he answered, lighting a cigarette, and
        throwing himself down into an armchair. 'You see, but you
        do not observe.  The distinction is clear.  For example,
        you have frequently seen the steps which lead up from the
        hall to this room.'

        "'Frequently.'

        "'How often?'

        "'Well, some hundreds of times.'

        "'Then how many are there?'

        "'How many?  I don't know.'

        "'Quite so!  You have not observed.  And yet you have seen.
        That is just my point.  Now, I know that there are
        seventeen steps, because I have both seen and
        observed....'"

 Now, one could argue that minutiae such as portrayed in the
 example are irrelevant, trivial, and so forth.  But it is by
 practicing on the trivial that one trains oneself - i.e., develops
 the skill - to spot the equally insignificant things that turn out
 _not_ to be trivial.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 þ OLXWin 1.00b þ A good pun is its own reword

------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 17:17:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#85] Rice Papers

T::>I know that I saw the rules for making a RICE-paper somewhere
 ::>on the internet, but now I can't find it. Does anybody have the
 ::>adresse to a page with these rules?

 Hi!  That'd have been me - check out
 http://www.execnet.com/~jeffz/traveler/ for the RICE Archives.

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 þ OLXWin 1.00b þ Chief Archivist, Regency Institute for Cultural Education


------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 17:29:47 -0400
Subject: RE: M-drives & Zeta Field

Leonard Erickson writes:
> [ reference to "mass nullifying zeta field" concept ]
> Doesn't help as much as you think. Now, instead of getting kinetic
> energy for free, you are getting *potential* energy for free.

Only if "mass nullifying" applies to gravitic effects as well, which
I never claimed. It need only affect apparent mass for the sake of
kinetic energy. This is a good point, though. Anti-gravity devices
have the same problem if you treat them as simply nullifying gravity.
They must also require extra energy equalling the gained potential
energy if you use them to help lift an object.

> Sure, the ship can cause quite a mess by "hovering" on the drive flame
> and use steering jets to "walk" the flame across thing they don't like.

Exactly. These high Isp drives have a low cross-section, but this
merely concentrates the same amount of energy in a smaller area and
for a much greater distance. Thus, *any* ship can wreak havoc on a
city from orbit. Or destroy a space station. You're right that it's
not actually a "planet-killer", but it just doesn't fit in with the
"feel" of Traveller, IMHO.

> But not anyplace where people can shoot back.

Attacking a planet or station is not an action to be taken lightly.
Yet if there is even the slightest chance of civilian ships doing
this, they would not be allowed anywhere near either. Every one of
them would have to be treated as a potential military threat. If
thruster plates don't pose this type of threat, then this level of
security need only apply to ships with fusion rockets, nasty-looking
weapons, *big* rocks in tow, etc. :-)

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 17:06:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #90

>From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
>simple.  Where do you stick the skills into the character generation 
>system?  In 2300AD and TNE, this wouldn't  be too difficult to manage, 

Classic Traveller charaters are not static.  It is possible for
them to gain new skills.  They can find other esoteric methods such
as RNA intelligence or education implants, surgical alterations, 
military or mercenary training, sabbaticals or through self-improvement.

>>(BTW, I'm more in the camp of "more skills--the better". But remember that
>>once you purchase this puppy, there's nothing to stop you from adding or
>>substracting skills until your head spins!)

Why would I want to 'purchase this puppy' if it's filled with useless 
skills (and background) that I'm only going to take out anyway?

- -Daniel



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 17:53:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Simple vs. Complex Skills: A possible solution?

On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Charles Collin wrote:

> The idea is similar to Shadowrun (no! no! keep reading!  It's not that
> bad!) where they have a fairly small list of basic skills and then allow
> you to pick a specialization if you wish.  You can stay a generalist and
> get level-2 skill in all firearms, or you can specialize so that you get
> level-3 in pistol but level-1 in all other weapons.  

[detail snipped for brevity]

> Comment?  Criticisms?  Ranting Flames?

Charles,

It sounds like a good idea...IF what you're talking about won't mean a 
lot of new skills.  That is, if we can have a top-level skill of 
"Researcher" then a cascade of all the different areas of research, I'm 
all for it.  But if what you're proposing includes the idea of having 
top-level skills like "Theology," "Computer Science," etc. with cascades 
under /then/, it would still require a massive skill list, which I oppose.

I think this could be done in the former way, so it sounds like a really 
good idea.  True, it is a departure from the way Traveller does things, 
but . . . .

'course, since T4 is very close to going to the printer, this whole 
discussion is probably moot. :P  


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 18:06:54 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: An optimistic message

Hi,

Lest the lists become bogged down in the pessimism recently expressed 
herein, I'd like to let everyone know that I am very, very optimistic 
that T4 will turn out to be the system almost everyone here can agree on 
using.  There will be a few CT, MT, and T:NE hold-outs, undoubtedly.  
But I think T4 will unify the disparate factions of Traveller players, and 
allow us to work together to create better gaming experiences, to the 
greatest extent since CT.  

If T4 had abandoned FF&S entirely, a large group of players (the 
gearheads) would have been left out.  Thankfully, Mr. Golden and IG, 
along with Derek Wildstar, came up with a series of solutions that will 
satisfy all of our tastes...while allowing us to exchange designs, no 
matter which of the three ship design systems we use.  

Including FF&S in three forms was /not/ a negative thing.  It was an 
overwhelming plus for /us/.  It was an inclusive move by IG, and they 
will reap the economic rewards thereof, while we all reap the rewards of 
having a larger pool of talent (that's all of us!) using the same 
system, rather than three or four different, incompatible systems.

This, of course, works hand-in-hand with the multitude of Milieux that IG 
will be supporting.  No matter which of the official Traveller universes 
you like, there will be one for you...plus other, new ones! 

T4 is going to be a great product.  We'll each do some tweaking in our 
own campaigns, but when has that not been the case for ANY RPG?!? :)

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 16:38:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Dropping rocks for fun & profit

Bri posed the question of what a "dropped rock" would look like on impact.

Depends on the size of the rock, of course.  For most purposes, you'd be
using smallish ones -- 10s of meters, maximum -- if we're discussing the
invasion (as opposed to obliteration) scenario.  Let's call it a 10m
nickel-iron nugget, aimed at a building complex (say, the planet's
principle commo hub).  Let's stand about 20km away, too, and have a nice
deep trench dug. :) Oh, and let's also assume an earthlike world in terms
of grav and atmosphere. 

So:  Everything is calm and peaceful, until suddenly a blazing ball of
white-hot plasma, brighter than the Sun, flashes down out of the sky at a
steep angle, moving too fast to track with the eye.  From the point where
it dropped below the horizon appears a lovely hemispherical cloud of
debris, glowing dull red with brighter yellow and white flecks, visibly
flattening as it quickly rises, spreads and darkens.  Moments later, a
powerful ground shockwave arrives, knocking everyone over...hopefully to
the bottom of the trench, as moments later the air shock arrives. 
Suddenly a 150+ kph wind rushes through; at the same time, rocks start
falling from the sky, as debris lofted onto high parabolic arcs start
raining down.  Most are pebble-sized or smaller; some are bigger, a few
*much* bigger.  Everyone curls up and tries to get under cover.  A minute
or so later, the wind dies down, though the air is still so full of dust
that it's almost dark.  Gradually, as the next few hours go by, the dust
settles out or blows away.  On the horizon where the commo center used to
be are several pillars of smoke, as fires started by the initial blast
continue to burn.  Travelling now toward the impact point, one encounters
greater and greater devastation, until about a a half-klick out one finds
the crater rim, still too hot to touch. 

Cool, huh? :)

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 16:42:54 -0700
Subject: Re: Rock dropping again...no no no no no!

It's worth noting that giant-rock-dropping is only attractive because 
thruster plates provide delta-V free of the rigours of conservation of energy;
if you use reaction drives, giant rocks require so much energy to get into
place that they aren't actually all *that* attractive compared to nuclear
weapons. (The extreme case, of course, being the lifeboat-at-0.1c problem.)

Bruce Macintosh
bmac@igpp.llnl.gov

------------------------------

From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 17:33:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Jim Vassilakos wrote:

> simonm@ramhb.co.nz writes:
> to use it otherwise is to invite disaster. A drop ship will stick out
> like a sore thumb on radar. A drop capsule, on the otherhand,
> surrounded by dozens of decoys, is going to be a heck of a lot
> safer. You want to take out that trooper, you'd better use a nuke,
> because you're not gonna find him otherwise.

To add my two cents to the discussion (and maybe make it less tangential),
the key idea is that, for a "hot" drop, it is probably much more effective
to shoot 30 smallish bits at the planet (a platoon plus the dummies) that
are much harder to hit, than putting all of your eggs in one basket, so to
speak.  If the enemy's anti-aircraft/trans-orbital defenses take out a
drop ship, you've lost however many troops it was carrying, plus pilot,
plus an expensive ship.  If one of the drop capsules gets smeared, you've
lost a single trooper (rather Machiavellian, but that war).

It should be noted that they don't senselessly waste drop capsules, at one
point in the book they do ride down in a drop ship, because the planet had
already been secured.  Also, from the extra orbital point of view, the
fast corvettes that they use are probably cheaper to build (and hence can
be built better/meaty-er) than a comparable troop and drop ship transport.

And finally, one must take into account that somewhere in the book he
states there are about 11,000 Mobile Infantrymen ("everyone drops"), so
this is by no means a force-wide form of deployment.  This whole insertion
method becomes that much more practical, then, when you consider that
these guys are the rare, top of the line, beach/planet-head troopers.
When you view this in the Traveller (Imperium/Regency, take your pick)
mode, I, personally, see these guys as something like a singular division
of the Marines (as the Marines are to the Army, these guys are to the
Marines).  In my campaigns, in fact, I've used something similar as
commando teams (much like their role in the book---land and cause havoc),
and i can also see applications in peace-keeping (someone does something
stupid, and WHAM, you've got a company of malo-hombres shooting up your
nostrils).

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #92
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 14 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 093

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Whining...
         2. Re: Orbital Bombardment
         3. Re: Signing off
         4. Re: Signing Off
         5. Re: Dropping rocks for fun & profit
         6. re: Psychiatry
         7. Orbital bombardment and planetary invasions
         8. Medical Skills
         9. Task/Skill Resolution for T4
        10. gasoline on the medical/first aid debate
        11. orbital bombardment, jump troops, etc.
        12. Simple vs. Complex Skills: A possible solution?
        13. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
        14. Re: Signing off
        15. Re: Character Generation LITE?
        16. More good reading

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 17:27:01 -0800
Subject: Whining...

Phil Pugliese said:

>>I had hoped that I could spread the word around here that T4
would bring back the magic that once was Traveller but now I'll
have to say, "It's just a repackaged TNE".<<

All I have to say is: what a _whiner!_

You didn't get "CT II," so you're cutting out. Well, I've got news for 
you, Phil, and any who cling so desperately to a game that was as 
outdated as polyester leisure suits and bellbottom pants: get over it!

CT had a lot going for it and using it as the basis for T4 is a good 
idea. But IG realized, as it was inevitable, that repackaging CT and 
slapping a new name on it was just not marketable.

For every quitter like Phil, I'm willing to bet that 10 newcomers jump 
on board who wouldn't have if word of mouth had spread about the 
inadequacies of a revised CT.

A fellow TML member (whose anonymity shall be protected) related to me 
some time back his opinion that all the CT'ers who thought they were 
going to get CT II were in for a big surprise. Well, guess what: 
SURPRISE! Sorry your dreams are shattered but you were never the target 
audience anyway. 

I never enjoyed debating with you, Phil, since you were incapable of 
evaluating opinions that differed from your own myopic views, and I can 
honestly say that you won't be missed.

- --Chris

------------------------------

From: mike foy <musashi@norfolk.infi.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:05:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Orbital Bombardment

At 07:08 AM 6/12/96 -0700, you wrote:
>At 08:10 PM 4/13/96 -0900, you wrote:
>>I seem to remembering in Niven & Purnelle's 'Footfall' something similar to
>>the 'smart crowbar' described.  If my memory is correct, the Yanks,
>>sorry...US :) experimented with a 'Project Thor' in the late sixties/early
>>seventies.
>>
>>Niven/Pournelle's weapon was similar - basically a crowbar with steering
>>vanes and just enough electronic smarts to recognise a tank from above.
>>
>>Correct me if I'm wrong though...
>
>Back in the sixties the US based Skunkworks factory was expeimenting with
>designing a high altitude highspeed interceptor bomber.  The project got
>side listed by some airforce general who had friends in another company and
>the B1 project went ahead, big mistake.  This vehical was developed as a spy
>plane rather than a bomber inspite of the fact it was determined to have a
>91% accuracy with kinetic energy bombs capable of punching through 21 feet
>of steel reinforced concrete.  Does any one remember the plane?
>
>SR71 Blackbird ring a bell?  With enough speed, 30,000 feet at mach 6 a
>brick can pretty much level a building.
>
>Derek Stanley
>
>
BOMI --BOMB MISSLE ? I think is was a program that was budgeted out of
existence but was more than theoretically possible. Also the Dyna-saur a
manned aerospace plane project initiated by the Air Force before the Mercury
Project (Man in a Can) would have been used for the same purpose. It was
cancelled well into prototype production in 1963. It was what Werner Von
Braun, Sanger, and Willy Ley envisioned, a small reusable space plane that
would carry two astronauts and a small payload to the cancelled Manned
Orbital Laboratory (which is where most of the the first shuttle astronauts
came from this program: Crippen, Truly, Engle).

Recommended reads: Tranquility Alternative by Allen Steele, the space race
as it might                                    have been.

                                   Blueprint for Space, a Smithsonian Book,
based on a exhibit at the
                                   NASM, that used the "predictions" Ley,
Braun, Oberg, Goddard, 
                                   Bonesteel, and others thought the space
program would be like in                                    the far future
...the sixties and seventies.
                                   
                                   The Dream Machines, A Pictoral History of
the Spaceship in Art,                                    Science, and
Literature, by Ron Miller (great space artist).
Published by Krieger 1993. If you need an idea what a spaceship
may look like in you campaign, esp lo-tech, this is the ultimate
drool book (It cost a $100, but its worth it, try the library). I used
this for 2300, TNE, High Colonies, and Gurps/Space-Terradyne,



Models:  DML, a Japanese Model company, has 1/72 and 1/48 models of all the
weird                   German planes we've been talking about, the
collection is pretty extensive say
               every variant SIX! of the Arado Blitz, Me-262, Jaegers,
Natters. At this point                there are 45 planes in the series,
I've built twelve. They also have all the rare                variants of
production planes, three Ha-152, 3 He-219 Owls in another series.



------------------------------

From: "David Reed" <nacht@neosoft.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:19:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Signing off

- ----------
> From: PPUGLIESE@pimacc.pima.edu
[snip]
> I can see the handwriting on the wall.
[snip]
> I'll also be cancelling my subscription to this list since MM
> was the last hope for restoring Traveller & that hope has now
> disappeared.
[snip]

I've got another 6000 TMLs to read, but I COULDN'T let this
one fly by...

Was it something I said?  I know I'm a jerk sometimes, but...

YOU ARE WRONG, MR.!!!

Now, if you mean that "Traveller" consists of using lame 
6-siders and little black books, well...  'Bye,  BUT I think that
Marc has put together one helluva team that is trying like the
dickens to do what WE the Consumers want (even if we don't
resemble the market share at large...).

MMT is going to have some of the simplicity of CT, but also
will have a lot of the nice detail-oriented features that MT and
TNE both tried to incorporate...

Things evolve, including rules...  Why the heck else would T$R
have a THIRD set!?  Sooner or later they'll get it right, too...  By
buying the rights to Rolemaster...  ;-)

I don't know exactly what you hoped for, but tossing in the 
towel sure won't get it...
- -- 
Dave  <nacht@neosoft.com>  public key available

Zen
"If you wish to find the unclouded truth,
do not concern yourself with right and wrong.
Conflicts with right and wrong are a sickness of the mind."


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:18:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Signing Off

At 08:00 AM 6/13/96 -0400, Phil Pugliese wrote:

>
>I can see the handwriting on the wall.
>
>The faction whose priority is to resurrect TNE has won. 

Faction?  What in God's name are you talking about?  There was an honest
discussion of what was wanted, and the makers of the game gave us a week to
make it work.  I have no idea if IG plans to *use* FF&S-Lite, but for you to
start throwing accusations of factionalism smacks of conspiracy theory.

>They've managed to convince IG to slap a thin veneer of CT
>over TNE & market it as T4.

Ah, so you've seen the complete manuscript, and are able to render judgement
on the entire product?  Amazing, since it's STILL BEING WRITTEN.

>I was hoping that IG would have learned from GDW's mistakes
>but that doesn't seem to be the case.

I haven't noticed IG producing anything resembling DJ, and pissing T$R off.

>I have no interest in investing my time or money in supporting
>TNEv2 so I'll be cancelling my advance orders for T4 products.
>
>I'll also be cancelling my subscription to this list since MM
>was the last hope for restoring Traveller & that hope has now
>disappeared.

Getting a bit messianic, are we?  It is a GAME, fer the love of pete!  You
want Classic Traveller (or should that be "Catholic" for you)?  Fine.  My
gamestore has a blackbox for $10US.  I'll mail it to you.

>I had hoped that I could spread the word around here that T4
>would bring back the magic that once was Traveller but now I'll
>have to say, "It's just a repackaged TNE".

While you are telling us what the future holds, could you clue me into what
this season holds for the 49ers?

Phil, your diatribes extoling the ONE TRUE TRAVELLER have grown tiresome.
I've played Traveller since I was 12, when my brother (who is also on the
list) sat down and explained the concept of role-play to me.  In that time,
I've gone through all of Traveller's growing pains, watched the Imperium go
from a one-line mention in Book 4: Mercenary to a richly detailed campaign
setting.

I'm ready to move forward.  I believe that MMT will be a combination of the
best that 18-odd years of Traveller have to offer.  If you wish to sulk,
feel free.

Good-bye Phil, I for one, will not miss you.

>ppugliese@pimacc.pima.edu
Hmmm.. he's unsubbing just as the schoolyear ends....



# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:25:09 -0700
Subject: Re: Dropping rocks for fun & profit

At 04:38 PM 6/13/96 -0700, you wrote:

>So:  Everything is calm and peaceful, until suddenly a blazing ball of
>white-hot plasma, brighter than the Sun, flashes down out of the sky at a
>steep angle, moving too fast to track with the eye.  From the point where
>it dropped below the horizon appears a lovely hemispherical cloud of
>debris, glowing dull red with brighter yellow and white flecks, visibly
>flattening as it quickly rises, spreads and darkens.  Moments later, a
>powerful ground shockwave arrives, knocking everyone over...hopefully to
>the bottom of the trench, as moments later the air shock arrives. 
>Suddenly a 150+ kph wind rushes through; at the same time, rocks start
>falling from the sky, as debris lofted onto high parabolic arcs start
>raining down.  Most are pebble-sized or smaller; some are bigger, a few
>*much* bigger.  Everyone curls up and tries to get under cover.  A minute
>or so later, the wind dies down, though the air is still so full of dust
>that it's almost dark.  Gradually, as the next few hours go by, the dust
>settles out or blows away.  On the horizon where the commo center used to
>be are several pillars of smoke, as fires started by the initial blast
>continue to burn.  Travelling now toward the impact point, one encounters
>greater and greater devastation, until about a a half-klick out one finds
>the crater rim, still too hot to touch. 
>
>Cool, huh? :)

Ya cool.  But cool in the way people rubber neck at an accident scene cool.
Personally I think that we should really drop this concept.  The idea of
dropping a boulder on a planetoid at 10,000 KPS is pretty morally repugnant
and it goes against everything that the Traveller universe CT MT TNE and T4
beleive in.  THough I wouldn't put it past Lucan.

DS


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:26:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: re: Psychiatry

>From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 17:00:33 -0500
>
>I'm not sure I understand your example.  Are you saying the the Dr could
>not make the above suggestion without an advanced degree in Psychiatry?
>
>I don't see where such skill came into play.

Don't be so serious.

My objectives were (1) to give some perspective on the first aid/medic
debate by pointing out that medical science skills could be split in other
ways and (2) inject a little humor into the discussion.

If psychiatry were a separate skill, it would be used in, for example, the
following ways:
- -to diagnose another character (PC or NPC) whose behavior had become
maladptive, e.g., because of loss of SAN (whoops, wrong game), exposure to
jump space, ingestion of psychoactive substances,
congenital/hormonal/genetic problems, etc.
- -in place of interrogation skill
- -in administering psychoactive substances for various purposes
- -to foment or dispell conflict among others

Psychiatry-3 should also provide an increase in Social Standing, because the
character has to spend that money somehow.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:26:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Orbital bombardment and planetary invasions

>From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>

>- -Starship Troopers- had infantry carrying nuclear weapons!!  There is a much
>better novel: -The Forever War- by Joe Haldeman, that gives a much better
>look at both combat, and the Army.

The Forever War gives a good perspective on advances in tech levels and
society over time, too.  To paraphrase Larry Niven, "those soldiers rode the
winds of relativity."

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:26:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Medical Skills

>From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)

>(As an aside, one of the English teachers at my last school went as an aid
>worker to Africa, and ended up doing surgery.  He started out just helping
>the doctor, but there were so many patients that he eventually did the
>routine operations with only a look-in from the doctor - who was working on
>someone else.  And this is with a BA in English!)

This is not an aside.  The English teacher was applying his Education and
probably Dexterity statistics to the task called "perform surgery."  Now
that's good Travelling! (and in real life, no less)


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:27:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Task/Skill Resolution for T4

>From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>

>
>"Now lets see where was that data on Imperial Podiatrist character generation?
>Book 8?  No...  Book 52?  no  damn it.  HARRY!  WHERE'S THE PODIATRIST?  I
>know he's on the corner!  In the manuals, where is he in the manuals?"

Here is another good reason for the game data to be released in
computer-searchable format.  While it's great to be able to use spreadsheets
to crank the last .00047 MW out of the battleship design, often one just
wants to know where the podiatrist chargen table is, or where the Shionthy
system is, or what the air speed of an African canary is, without having to
look through 52 issues of JTAS.

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: gasoline on the medical/first aid debate

I've been refereeing a campaign set in the Fifth Frontier War for some time.
The main player character mustered out (using Book 5 chargen) as an Imperial
Navy Master Chief Petty Officer with five terms in the medical branch and
med-3.  

He's therefore as competent, skill-wise, as a navy doctor.  Navy doctors,
however, are officers (at least in my class-obsessed ImpNav, which I don't
think deviates in spirit from canon).  He therefore was never a doctor, and
certainly not a medical officer.  What then did he do during his last two
terms with med-3?

I ruled that he was a typical senior NCO:  He managed other enlisted
personnel, and did some technical work himself.  Specifically, he was in
Orbital Search & Rescue, flying down to planet surfaces with a team or teams
in a pinnace to rescue and treat downed navy fighter crews.  While the teams
might have junior officers in command, the MCPO handled technical details
and assigned specific tasks.  Officer:  "let's get the pilot out of the
wreck."  MCPO:  "Mashugeneh and Spilkis, use the Jaws of Life on the forward
hatch; Kwanyin, rev up the grav stretcher and stand by.  I've got the power
pack for the eltee's remote diagnostics -- let's go!"

Neither my player nor I have actual military experience, so I'd welcome
comments from the veterans on the list.  What do senior NCOs with a lot of
medical skill do in the late 20th century?

- --Glenn


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:27:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: orbital bombardment, jump troops, etc.

"Due to their special equipment and training, jump troops may land on a
world during the space-surface transfer substep even if there are active
enemy SDBs in the system."  Fifth Frontier War at 17.

Perhaps someone in the ongoing discussion of planetary invasion can use that
item.


------------------------------

From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:27:06 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Simple vs. Complex Skills: A possible solution?

>From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>

>GM:  "Well, Toby has fallen down the well and broken his ankle.  What do 
>you do?"

Dr. Reich:  Toby, can you hear me on your commlink?
Toby:  Yeah, doc, I can hear you.  Can you get me out of this?
Dr. Reich:  Well, it sounds like you're feeling a little pain and
frustration.  Can you tell me about it?
Toby:  Doc, I'm stuck in the bottom of a well with a broken ankle!  Just get
me out!
Dr. Reich:  You know, sometimes you can't run away from your problems.  Can
you go deeper into the experience, and tell me anything about it?
Toby:  @*!! +#@**!
Dr. Reich:  I think we're making some excellent progress, Toby.  You
couldn't have expressed yourself like that before you fell into the well,
could you?
Toby (to GM):  What weapons am I carrying?

Maybe there isn't a role for psychiatrists in Traveller, after all.


------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:35:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

At 08:00 AM 6/13/96 -0400, Roderick Elliot wrote:

>Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>>Once a planethead has been seized; then, and only then, will you start
>>bringing down grav vehicles...  Aerospace fighters will have to clear quite
>>a corridor for the inward bound, and the defender has an excellent
>>oppurtunity to disrupt the invader if he can disabel transports on the
ground. 
>
>        I would think that suppressing enemy airpower would be part of
>obliterating enemy targets with rocks, above.  Airbases, fuelling
>facilities, and the like ought to be visible from orbit, and easy targets
>for rocks, nukes, what have you...  Again, I see attainment of orbital
>superiority as followed by the step of wiping out anything that you don't
>want that could hurt your infantry, and I see enemy air defense as part of
this.

While you hopefully supress the enemy aerospace force from orbit the
clearing I'm think of is of a different nature.  Small well concealed missle
teams in a 100km radius around the most likely targets.  Even a handheld SAM
can cause serious shit for a lander.

Consider the panic the TOW missle put into the Soviet High Command.  The
thought of a tank-killing missle that could be fired from a jeep, took
almost no time to set up, and was easy to use, caused STAVKA to trash *all*
of their plans for the invasion of the west.  All of them.  It took three
years for the Soviet Army to come up with a full set of plans to replace the
old ideas.

Aerospace fighters would patrol a designated corridor, looking for any sign
of SAM launch (or laser weapons) and then bring such sites under immediate
attack.

>        Basically, I would argue that you drop the PBI in only after
>everything with enemy markings bigger than a Matchbox car that isn't sitting
>on something you *HAVE* to take intact is at the bottom of a big smoking
>crater...  It's guaranteed that you're going to miss something (the bad guys
>will have course have dug in), but that's why you're sending in decoys, etc,
>with the first wave of PBI.  Anything that rears its head at this stage gets
>rocks dropped on it. 

The bad guys have had days at least to know this is coming.  More than
enough time to hide from orbital recon.  I was part of an experiment in 1985
where we hid a Mechanized Brigade in the middle of the desert for a full
day.  The satellites could not see us.  :) 

# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:36:13 -0700
Subject: Re: Signing off

At 10:19 PM 6/13/96 -0500, you wrote:

>MMT is going to have some of the simplicity of CT, but also
>will have a lot of the nice detail-oriented features that MT and
>TNE both tried to incorporate...

Absolutely a fusion of all the best aspects of the three systems is the only
way that this game is going to progress.

>Things evolve, including rules...  Why the heck else would T$R
>have a THIRD set!?  Sooner or later they'll get it right, too...  By
>buying the rights to Rolemaster...  ;-)

Pardon me while I shudder at the memory of Rule Monster. 8)

>I don't know exactly what you hoped for, but tossing in the 
>towel sure won't get it...

Again absolutly right.  Tossing in the towel and refusing to be a part of
the process gets no where.  Disputes would never get solved if people simply
gave up when the going gets tough.  No one of us is going to get to have
their cake and eat it too, and with T4 probably near the presses we'll
likely never influence what's going on at this moment however we can
influence what is to come.

DS


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 00:48:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Character Generation LITE?

 

On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Wes Payne wrote:

> Thus spake Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>:
> 
> > On Tue, 11 Jun 1996, Wes Payne wrote:
> > > Thus spake Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>:
> [previous discussion on quick, 'archetype'-based character generation 
>  system snipped]
>  
> >    Sold! I'll work out a few ideas, while you do the same. We can post
> > notes to the list for criticism and comments. <g>
> 
> (looks up with shocked expression on face after being startled awake by 
>  the sound of a gavel)
> 
[snip]
> 
> Since I don't know the basic assumptions of the new rules set, I really 
> don't want to muck about with it beforehand.  For instance:  Are 
> controlling attributes the most significant part of a relevant skill 
> 'asset,' as in TNE, or is the skill level itself the biggest factor in 
> determining potential success or failure?  How do attribute levels (such 
> as social standing) affect career options, and how do career paths affect 
> attribute levels?  I've really got no idea.

   I suspect we'll be seeing a system very close to TNE in basic
structure, with attributes acting as a base to the skill. Skill lists will
probably be cascades - how deatiled, I don't know.

> Sure, I suppose I could bang something out based on the TNE system, once 
> finals week is over, as some sort of prototype.  I'm going to be a 
> rent-a-cop this summer ("Here's a gun -- you don't get one!"), so I'll 
> likely have plenty of time on my hands, and this project will go a long 
> way towards making sure I remain awake for my entire shift.

   Wel, for one thing this doesn't have to be done all at once and we can
hammer out some basic concepts. How many priorities should players have to
choose? What *average* levels of attributes should we allow in the various
levels of choice? How many skill levels are appropriate for each level of
choice? Guidelines for age? How do we let players handle character class
and history? These are all important questions, and we don't have to know
the final details of T4 to work them out. 

   Besides, August is only two months away! <g>

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 03:11:18 -0500
Subject: More good reading

Of course some of the best reading material for Traveller would be _The
Mote in Gods Eye_, an the sequel _The Gripping Hand_.  The rumor I had
heard was the Traveller was loosely based on that book.  I don't know of
that is true, but after reading them, it really revitalized me to playing
Traveller (esp with nobles).

I would also recommend the Pournelle novels set in the Mote Universe. 
They are very good for looking at what Mileu 0 might be like.  _Prince of
Sparta_ I think is one of books in that series.

Another series that I have found to be a very good Space Navy book is the
David Feintuch series that starts in _Midshipmans Hope_.  If you really
want to get a feel for the Imperial Navy, I would strongly recommend the
Horatio Hornblower series by C.S. Forester, and the Master and Commander
series by Patrick O'Brien (at the very least it is O' something).  I have
always seen Traveller Naval actions as much like the Napoleonic English
Navy of Nelson.  The Captain had immense amounts of Autonomy on his ship,
and the Admiral had even more.  The descriptions of Imperial Naval
Doctrine for Traveller seem very like this (read the Rebellion sourcebook
for the best explanation I have seen).  It is the only way to make it work
in so large and Empire where a ship or Task Force could be out of contact
for months at a time.
- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

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Traveller-digest            Friday, 14 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 094

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Consistence Guildlines
         2. Background is the Game
         3. Re: Signing Off
         4. Re: gasoline on the medical/first aid debate
         5. Re: Planetary invasion vs. planetary destruction
         6. Gun Racks
         7. Phil was left the building
         8. Orbital bombardment and morale...
         9. RE: Orbital bombardment (again...)
        10. Orbital bombardment... some gets the point.
        11. RE Oribtal Bombardment
        12. Re: Dropping rocks for fun & profit
        13. Re: Star System & Planetary Generation
        14. To Chris
        15. RE: Whining
        16. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary invasions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 01:34:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Consistence Guildlines

On Wed, 12 Jun 1996, Daniel wrote:
> 
> Your point is very well taken, however, I disagree with the idea that 
> only a complicated set of rules will give you a consistency.

   I didn't say you needed complicated rules, I said FF&S gave us
something that CT didn't.

> For example, tech level is not the only factor that can determain 
> size and weight of equipment.  The FF&S rules don't take into account
> different races, inovative new technologies, religious requirements
> or dozons of other possible explainations for deviation.

  FF&S doesn't espouse any one species or social inclination - just the
laws (as we know them) of physics and engineering. Social and religious
obstacles are the responsibility of the designer (GM).

  As for alternative tech, look in the "alternative tech" section. <g>

> Granted, CT didn't take these factor into account either.  But because 
> design system was so simple it took almost no time for the GM to adapt 
> them.  In FF&S each part of the design stage is so intimately tied in
> to the other parts that a change to one part drastically effects
> how the other parts are used.
> 
> I'm not saying that FF&S is bad, only that it is not the only solution
> to have a consistent game.

  Not the *only*, just the only one we've had to date. IMO, the biggest
problems FF&S had were:

  1) Bad copy-editing, and confusing layout.
  2) Lots of "broken" features (eg: thrusters) that had GM's shaking their
heads.
  3) Inconsistencies with earlier established CT canon. (yes, I said
INCONSISTENCIES! :) (eg, HEPLAR vs Thrusters)  

  Complexity was really only a side issue. 

> >mindboggling set of possible societies. This way, any given GM could
> >design a piece of equipment and any other GM could pick it up and use it,
> 
> With CT this happened all the time.  I have dozons of magazines with 
> published equipment and ideas.  

   ...and almost all of them conflicted in different ways with my idea of
how a particular piece of equipment worked/should be layed out, not to
mention plain common-sense. (Note: I was a physics major in college) Had
these pieces of equipment been designed using FF&S, they all would have
"fit".

   Give three artists three blank pieces of paper and say "design an X"
and you'll get three different ideas of what X should be. Give each of
them a copy of *some* kind of rules set that has a *comprehensive* set of
commonsense guidelines for applying engineering principles, and you will
get considerably closer results (not exact, but they will differ only in
*detail* not in function)

  One thing I *really* like about FF&S, as opposed to HG, was that players
could actually look at the stats and say "gee, we only got a 60MW turret
laser - we could really cut up those corsairs that have been annoying us
lately if we upgrade to the 200MW TL-15 design they're selling here, of
course we'd have to upgrade the powerplant but it's better than sucking
vac". In CT, it would be more like "uh, G.O.D.[*] what would it take to
upgrade our TL9 turret laser to a TL15 one at the next starport?" and have
the GM scratching his head and making an *arbitrary* decision on the spot
to explain how the players can (or if the GM is mean, canNOT) put one on.

> Remember, not every tech 14 radio has to have the same 
> .0000034 megawatt power requirement.  

   No, just the ones that have "X" range. <g>

> >   I could also think of a number of situations where this knowledge could
> >come in useful. For example, the PCs are stranded in orbit after a space
> >battle, they've been left for dead and the fleet is leaving orbit. The
> >planet is uninhabited, and the players have no functioning PRKs. The
> 
> What's PRKs?

   Personal Reentry Kits. You know, a suitcase sized object that contains
a plastic bag shaped like a hemisphere with a couch indentation in one
side, a pressure canister full of foam, a deorbit thruster, and a cheap
one-shot idiot-proof nav computer. You put on your vac-suit, inflate the
plastic bag with the foam (which hardens and turns into a heat-resistant
half-cocoon) strap yourself in and deorbit with the thruster, using the
nav computer to plot your reentry path.

> >players have to get the radio working FAST. This means routing power, and
> >enough of it to run the radio with a wrecked power plant. You work it from
> >here...
> 
> I'ld simply create some tasks for the players to roll against.  They would 
> use Electronics skill, Intelligence and possible Education as modifiers.
> I see no need to know the exact wattage requirements of the radio or for that
> matter how many cubic centimeters it takes up.

   ...but if you know the power consumption, you know what the players
goal is and how hard the task is. (A .1MW radio is going to be a *lot*
harder to power than a .001MW radio)

   Skill rolling also pretty well negates role-playing, I only use rolling
to add a little spice and uncertainty. If players know their goal, and
come up with a *reasonable* plan to power up the radio ("We strip all the
vac suits of their powerpacks, each powerpack is rated at 0.00342MW, all
the party's packs should power the radio long enough to call the fleet")
then, I'll just check to make sure that at least one character is
competent in the necessary skills ("anyone have electronics and
mechanical? Ok, the radio's working. What do you do?") and let the plan
work. There is NO good reason to kill off the party just because they flop
on a couple of skill rolls with a perfectly good plan.

[*] G.O.D. - General Options Determinator

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com




------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 03:30:48 -0500
Subject: Background is the Game

In response to how T4 should not have Background material...

There are TONS of game son the market right now.  All have rules most are
different.  Almost every one of these games also has a game background
that the game is designed for.  Without the background the game doesn't
always work right.  Even the supposedly Generic GURPS Space heavily relies
on the background of the Space Universe.  Sure you can modify it, but the
best selling GURPS modules, and one of the reasons of its success is the
creation of Worldbooks based on popular Sci-Fi.  Sure the rules allow for
almost anything, but GURPS sells tons of Worldbooks for a reason.

Traveller is inextricably intertwined with the Imperium.  Does this mean
that you have to set your games there?  No!  However, I have never thought
that any incarnation of Traveller was the best RPG on the market from a
rule standpoint (maybe TNE was OK, but it too had problems).  However,
what has kept me interested in Traveller is the fact that the 11,000
worlds of the Imperium even existed.  Someone mentioned Battlelords of the
23rd Century.  It is a good game.  The rules are OK, but what makes if fun
to play if the background.  Can I design one better?  If I could I would
have my own game on the market.  If you want to design your own...more
power to you.  But if you want T4 to succeed, and I am not sure that
everyone on the list feels that way at this point, then background is the
key.  Vampire, Werewolf, Mage, and Changeling are poor games in my opinion
from a rules standpoint, but from a background standpoint they are
probably the best on the market hands down (GURPS even copied them). 
Shadowrun is the same, fair rules, but incredible background.

Personally I am hopeful that T4 will be a success.  I harbor no love for
TNE over any other Traveller rule system, and IMHO no setting compares to
the Rebellion for intrigue and adventure, but I am willing to give M0 a
try at least for a bit.  I have been vary happy that IG has listened to us
on the list, and realized that TNE had DEFINITE improvements over all
prior incarnations of Traveller.  In the immortal words of Rodney King
"Can't we all just get along?" B-)

Waiting for T4 with baited breath so I can try and prove that Fighters are
the key to any Space Navy...
DCB
- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 01:36:32 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Signing Off

On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
> >I'll also be cancelling my subscription to this list since MM
> >was the last hope for restoring Traveller & that hope has now
> >disappeared.
> 
> Getting a bit messianic, are we?  It is a GAME, fer the love of pete!  You
> want Classic Traveller (or should that be "Catholic" for you)?  Fine.  My
> gamestore has a blackbox for $10US.  I'll mail it to you.

  I'll sell him mine, I have all 5 of the first books and a sh*tload of
supplements.


- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 01:41:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: gasoline on the medical/first aid debate

On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Glenn M. Goffin wrote:
> 
> Neither my player nor I have actual military experience, so I'd welcome
> comments from the veterans on the list.  What do senior NCOs with a lot of
> medical skill do in the late 20th century?

   A couple of points with reference to modern-day marines:

  1) There is no hospital corps in the marines, the marines use Navy
corpsmen.

  2) In the marines, *everyone* carries a rifle, and knows how to use it.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:59:24 +0000
Subject: Re: Planetary invasion vs. planetary destruction

> Date:          Thu, 13 Jun 1996 10:07:09 -0700 (PDT)
> From:          Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
> Subject:       Planetary invasion vs. planetary destruction

> (Note that rock-pushing gets *much* harder under 
> fuel-limited HEPlaR rules, but it appears that they're not canon 
> anymore.  Whee!).

I actually had a liking for HEPlaR - it didn't offend my relativistic 
senses like thruster plates did.  However, if one is patient, use icy 
comets - plenty of free fuel. 


> Now we come to the nebulous Rules of War.  One might imagine that, just 
> as we've restrained ourselves from lobbing nukes at one another for 50 
> years here on Terra, future societies might tacitly or explicitly agree 
> that wholesale devastation of planetary surfaces using raw kinetic energy 
> bombs is a Bad Thing.  One can imagine various War Departments making 
> secret plans on how to push rocks around should it come to that, but 
> being restrained by political considerations from ever actually doing 
> so.

And, because what you can do unto them, they can do unto you.  While 
one's vengeance may be delayed months or years, a dozen+ comets will 
make short work a world if you can get them fast/close to the world 
without detection, and they don't take a lot of resources (a HEPlaR 
drive and a good computer). 



- --
Edward Swatschek - edjs@mindlink.net

------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 01:01:43 -0600
Subject: Gun Racks

On 06/13/96 at 11:53 AM,  Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com> said:

>>I'm from Vancouver so far be it for me to argue with someone from a s
>>one third of all pickup trucks have gun racks  8-)

>You must have Texas confused with New York.  
>The ratio here is more like 8 out of 10 :-).

What you talking about?  Don't gun racks come standard on all pickup
trucks?  I can't recall seeing any around here that don't have a
rack...usually no guns in the rack, but they *all* seems to have
racks. 

Eris
from the state that's shaped like a pistol! <g>
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 06:05:25 GMT
Subject: Phil was left the building

Phil has left the building.  He is now with Elvis.  Hallelujah.  Let's talk
about something else.

------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 14:44:36 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Orbital bombardment and morale...

Derek Stanley wrote:

>
>Because lobbing rocks down from orbit, and detonating nukes in the
>atmosphere, while sound from a military point of view have a tendency to
>produce counter productive results at home.  There's nothing wrong with
>killing soldiers as far as the GP is concerned but killing civilians is
>another story entierly.  And despite the best military coverups these things
>have a way of getting out and once they do it becomes more and more
>difficult for the military to do it's job effectively.
>
>DS

        Sounds like you need to fire your Minister of Propaga... er,
Information :).

   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 14:44:39 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: RE: Orbital bombardment (again...)

Someone wrote:

>
>While I treasure _Starship Troopers_ as one of my favourite Sci-Fi novels, I 
>personally can't see anyone with half a brain being willing to be sealed
inside 
>a tiny capsule (claustrophobic hell) and then fired as an uncontrolled missile 
>into space, through the nightmare of re-entry, and down through a hostile 
>atmosphere where the locals are throwing everything in the panetary arsenal at 
>them. Decoys aside, the chances of any survivors ( including the most die-hard 
>rollercoaster fanatic ) being willing to do it twice would be virtually nil. 
>

        Well, personally, I wouldn't advocating dropping so much as a toy
parachute onto a planet unless I was damn sure that there were no threats of
any sort detectable from orbit.  Mobile infantry cost money to train, to
equip, to feed, to carry, to patch back up together gain, etc, etc, etc.
They're a valuable resource that should only be used where strictly neccessary.

        Rocks, on the other hand are free.

   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 14:44:41 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Orbital bombardment... some gets the point.

        John Gardener wrote:
>
>Having BEEN a grunt, I whole heartedly agree with you on point b. ;>)
>This makes sence.  If you doubt it, just look at what we did in the middle
>east a few years back.  Let the Air Force clean up everything we can find
>(and some things that we can't) to really soften them up BEFORE sending in
>the troops.  Yes, the troops still have to fight, but they can do a much
>better job without worrying about enemy air droping big nasties on their
>heads.  Besides, the humbling effect of having most of your high tech stuff
>trashed has a decided effect on the defender's morale (they either give up,
>or cop a really ugly attitude).  
>
>___John

        Exactly!  Finally somebody gets the point.  I'm going to shut up on
this topic now :).

   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 14:44:32 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: RE Oribtal Bombardment

        Leonard wrote:

>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net> writes:
>
>>         Here's where I really start disagreeing with you: the next step
>> would consist of the orbiting force suppressing the planetary-based defenses
>> (assuming they are not foreced to retreat).  The big, obvious targets such
>> as defense installations and other strategic targets would simply have rocks
>> dropped on them (why waste a good nuke when a nice handy nickel-iron
>> asteroid will do just as well).
>
>There are *very* few targets that merit dropping an entire asteroid on
>them. :-) Remember, Meteor Crater in Arizona was made by a body only a
>few *meters* across. 

        Well, I wasn't exactly advocating dropping rocks the size of Ceres
on a platoon-strength target or anything, but I was thinking of the size of
rocks that you're talking about.  Apologies for fumbling up my terminology :).


>
>But you have hit on an important point. There's no reason to use nukes.
>Not only are they expensive, but they dirty up territory that you are
>trying to capture.
>

        Exactly.  There are gazillions of rocks floating around that will
cost you nothing save the thrust to move them onto target and won't cause
nasty fallout problems (although I suspect "pseudo-nuclear" winter could be
a problem if you used enough of them...

>You'll also want bigger items for taking out the *really* hardend
>targets. A 3 meter chunk of nickel iron weighs over 100 tonnes. At 9
>km/sec, that's around a kiloton of impact energy. At 30 km/sec it's
>around 10 kT. A few of those would even get the attention of someplace
>like Cheyenne Mountain. :-)

        This is the sort of size range I was considering...

>
>BTW, an interesting bit of data. The ideal time for a force still
>orbiting the star (rather than the planet) to launch a space-to-ground
>strike is at local dawn! Why? Because then you get the planet's orbital
>velocity *added* to the impact velocity for free. For Earth, that's
>around 26 km/s. 
>
>>From planetary orbit, there isn't any preferred time. Though if the
>space junk isn't too bad, you may want the bombardment ships in a
>retrograde orbit. It'll give a slight boost in impact velocities, and
>*drastically* shorten their apparent orbital period (ie they'll pass
>over a given spot on the ground more often).

        Cool.  I hadn't bothered thinking it out that far... I was still
thinking in terms of simply being up a gravity well.  This just makes the
picture for the side without orbital superiority all that much bleaker...
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 23:47:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Dropping rocks for fun & profit

 Hmm, that's what I wanted to hear :)

 I was wondering tho, what would cause the yellow n white fireball that
you were describing and why woulden't all of the KE simply go into the
ground?

 Thank you very much.

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 02:04:09 -0600
Subject: Re: Star System & Planetary Generation

On 06/13/96 at 08:28 PM,  jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay) said:

>Will there be any modifications done to the World Building tables,
>etc. for T4? 

I'm very interested in this too!  My question to IG had to do with
this very subject...btw, weren't they going to answer our questions,
like last week?  I didn't miss them did I?

>I realize that Traveller has a higher frequency of habitable planets
>and did stem from a system where planets were generated first (the
>rest of the solar system had to wait for Book 5). 

Book 6, I think, but your general idea is right.  

>..suggesting a population limit and/or modifier based on planetary
>size.

At least!  <g>

Wasn't there a discussion of system building here a while back...who
was it that came up with the alternative order for generating the UWP?

I just pulled up the file:  Jeff Zeitlin, Jim Vassilakos, Derek
Wildstar, Mark Clark, Bruce Pihlamae, and Steve Bonneville are
created.  Thanks guys!


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------

From: "Bob Brown" <Robert.Brown@newcastle.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:58:49 +0000
Subject: To Chris

Chris grow up son, the loss of anyone from this newsgroup should be 
greated with saddness, because we as a group has failed to 
accommodate all the aspects of this game we love. We can do without 
your petty gloating, how old are you? I for one am sorry that 
Phil took this approach, but it was his choice and I hope he 
reconciders.
So please lets all try to get things in perspective here, all we want 
is the goal posts to stop moving as various publishers try to cash 
in.
I really hope T4 will be a good product, though I fear it'll be 
something less.
Bob

------------------------------

From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 10:46:00 PDT
Subject: RE: Whining

Christopher Griffen <cgriffen@cris.com> wrote

>All I have to say is: what a _whiner!_

>You didn't get "CT II," so you're cutting out. Well, I've got news for
>you, Phil, and any who cling so desperately to a game that was as
>outdated as polyester leisure suits and bellbottom pants: get over it!

What??  They're outdated?  Damn, I better go shopping.

I agree with Christopher's main point.  All this bickering about whether
T4 was going to be CT mark II or TNE mark II is frankly ludicrous.
If I wanted to play CT, I'd go and get my CT books out.  If I wanted
to play TNE, I'd go and get that out.

If T4 is going to be based on one or the other, but incorporating
changes that the now infamous twenty years of role playing
experience has brought, with input from the members of this list,
and hopefully as much as any product can do trying to blend the
best bits of TNE with the best bits of CT, well then I will go and buy
it.  A replica of either game would be pointless.  Something which
takes the best aspects of both would be umm, pointful.

But let's face it, there's going to be something in T4 that I am
unhappy with.  There's going to be something in T4 that all the
members of this list aren't going to like.  That's life.  In my
opinion if you want a RPG that is totally perfect for you, and
that exactly fits the way you view the far future, then write it yourself.

I'll just buy T4, and any bits I don't like, I will rewrite, or ignore, or
replace with a rule that I do like.  The rules aren't a sacrosanct
holy document, and you can alter the rules (or even shock horror
the background) to suit yourself and your campaign without the
ImperiumGames meninblack coming and abducting you.  The
reason I'm going to buy T4 is I think and hope that I'll want to
change less than I did with CT or TNE.

Iain
iain.rowan@sunderland.ac.uk


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 22:22:25 PST
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary invasions

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> writes:

> >I seem to remembering in Niven & Purnelle's 'Footfall' something similar to
> >the 'smart crowbar' described.  If my memory is correct, the Yanks,
> >sorry...US :) experimented with a 'Project Thor' in the late sixties/early
> >seventies.
> >
> >Niven/Pournelle's weapon was similar - basically a crowbar with steering
> >vanes and just enough electronic smarts to recognise a tank from above.
> 
> This is a good description of the beastie, though you can spoof them.. jam
> its control frequency.. then get real close to the enemy lines..  Friendly
> fire isn't.

*What* "control frequency"? These puppies are "fire and forget"
munitions. They've got pattern matching code good enough that most will
go for the type of target they are sent after. You get them aimed at
the general area, tell them what to kill, and when they get there
they'll go after anything that looks like that kind of target.

They could be spoofed by some sorts of camouflage, but that's ok
because they are "cheap". And you don't want to fire them into a
situation where your vehicles and enemy vehicles are intermixed. (Of
course, even ground support aircraft make mistakes in *that* sort of
mess)

> >I am surprised nobody has mentione Heinlein's _Starship Troopers_ yet.
> >Fire a bunch of armed to the teeth soldiers, mixed up with decoys, out of
> >launch tubes, presumably after suppressing any planetary defenses.
> >
> >A very good look at what the future foot soldier may have to go through.
> 
> Yes.. and no.  Heinlein's universe so glorified the grunt as to be a near
> deification.  No artillery, no cavalry, nothing but the Mobile Infantry,
> Saviors of Mankind!!!

We don't know this for sure. The MI appear to be a cross between
Marines and Paratroopers. So their view of fighting would be rather
different than your standard "line grunt". 

They did have "artillery" support from ships when in major actions. As
for cavalry, I dunno. What sort of "cavalry" would you see as fitting
that sort of tech, and the "drop" requirements? Armored cav is pretty
much out. So that leaves air cav, which seems to be a bit
problematical. 

> -Starship Troopers- had infantry carrying nuclear weapons!!

Think of it as integral artileery. :-)

> There is a much
> better novel: -The Forever War- by Joe Haldeman, that gives a much better
> look at both combat, and the Army.

Both Heinlein and Haldeman *liked* each other's book. They were
detailing some rather different situations. And the *type* of Army they
were describing was quite different too. 
 
> # ------------------------------------------------- #
> #  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
> #    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
> #                                                   #
> #   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
> #        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
> #      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
> #     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
> #         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
> # ------------------------------------------------- #
> 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #94
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 14 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 095

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters
         2. Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters & Planet Killers (oh my!)
         3. Re: Orbital bombardment
         4. Re: RE Orbital bombardment and Planetary Invasions
         5. [none]
         6. Rocks & Planet Killers: a possible solution (longish)
         7. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 22:37:32 PST
Subject: Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters

ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch) writes:

> On 06/12/96 at 09:40 AM,  "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
> said:
> 
> >M-drives consist of reactionless thruster plates and a
> >mass-nullifying "zeta field". With the field on, your "apparent mass"
> >is changed so that you go much faster, although your total *kinetic
> >energy* never reaches planet-killing amounts. With the field off,
> >your ship would still be moving in the same direction, only much
> >slower (you might be able to run on "thrusters only" in spacedock).
> 
> Ok, let's see if I've got it...
> 
> I've got a ship that masses 200 tonnes, and some sort of thruster that
> produces a low acceleration, say .01g. 
> 
> I accelerate out of orbit at .01g with my "zeta field' off.  I turn
> the "zeta field" on and my apparent mass drops to, say .2 tonnes, and
> my acceleration jumps to, oh let's say 10g.  I build up a *healthy*
> velocity, quickly travelling across the system.
> 
> Later, nearing my destination, I turn the "zeta field' off.  My ship's
> mass jumps back to 200 tonnes and my actual velocity immediately drops
> to what it would have been if I'd been
> accelerating at .01g the entire time.  I flip the ship, turn on the
> "zeta field" and *quickly* lose the rest of my acceleration. (No...I'd
> still have to flip at the halfway point and decelerate, correct?)
> 
> If I ram a planet with the "zeta field" on, it collapes and my
> momentum (the energy I transfer to the planet) is only what I'd have
> built up accelerating at .01g.
> 
> ...right?

That *does* seem to be what he's saying. 

Unfortunately, when you ram the planet, zeta field or no, you *must*
have a KE at least equal to that which you'd have gotten by free
falling to the planet. And that gets fairly hefty.

Also, what happens if a kinetic kill projectile hits your ship? If the
zeta field affects it, it won't hit as hard. If the field *doesn't*
affect it, then it's possible that your ship will "bounce" out of the
way.

I know that folks are worried about the dangers of planetbusters, and
even just "dropping rocks". But the fact is that anything that will
enable a ship to take off and get to 100 diameters carrying a fair
amount of cargo is going to make certain "nasty" things possible. It
comes with the territory.

Likewise, jumbo jets mean that you can wipe out a small town easily.
Just set the GPS-linked autopilot (they exist) to crash the plane
there, and bail out. For a medium sized city, load the plane with the
right types of materials and the secondary blast will do the job.

Why don't people do this? Easy. Have you *priced* a jumbo jet?

Likewise, with a reaction drive ship, folks aren't going to crash the
ships into things except in very unusual circumstances. 

Thruster plates are the problem, but *only* as long as they are allowed
to violate conservation of energy. If you fix that, then they aren't a
problem. Of course,, this will piss off the folks who like them since
it turns out that a "reactionless" drive that obeys conservation of
energy is *less* efficient than your typical reaction drive.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 23:16:38 PST
Subject: Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters & Planet Killers (oh my!)

"Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com> writes:

> This means nothing to a civilian ship willing to use its fusion rockets
> to torch a city. You must keep ships with fusion rockets well away from
> your planet. Yet in Traveller, civilian ships regularly land on planets,
> dock at stations, etc. Therefore, they must not use fusion rockets (at
> least not ones that are capable of that kind of destruction).

Since I don't have a copy of FF&S, I'm dropping back to the "old"
theoretical figures for a fusion rocket. That's an Isp of roughly
600,000. (exhaust velocity = 5.88e6 m/s)

For a thrust of 3000 tonnes (3e6 kg) such a drive would be using 5 kg
per second of fuel. Work it out yourself. 

5 kg of plasma is *not* going to set a city on fire. Nor is 300 kg (one
minute). 

Oh yeah, figure out a density for the plasma as it leaves the jet. The
density and exhaust velocity is enough to determine the cross-sectional
area of the jet. And it's *damn* narrow unless you assume ridiculously
low densities.

It'll make a mess of the surface you land on, but that's why starports
have blast pits, and why the "frontier" type ports are a chunk of
bedrock. A few holes burned in it or melted places don't matter much. 

And it *is* going to burn a hole. The kinetic energy of the jet is
86e12 W or 86 terawatts.  But as I noted above, it's *very*
concentrated. It'll go thru rock like an acetylene torch thru
styrofoam.

So if you want to "torch" a city, you are going to have to *hover* on
your exhaust, and then walk it back and forth across the city. 

Me, I'd have some cheap heat seeker missiles armored to withstand the
drive flame for long enough to explode inside the drive. There's *no*
way you are going to avoid that. Or survive it.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 96 23:09:21 PST
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment

simonm@ramhb.co.nz writes:

> While I treasure _Starship Troopers_ as one of my favourite Sci-Fi novels, I 
> personally can't see anyone with half a brain being willing to be sealed insi
> a tiny capsule (claustrophobic hell) and then fired as an uncontrolled missil
> into space, through the nightmare of re-entry, and down through a hostile 
> atmosphere where the locals are throwing everything in the panetary arsenal a
> them. Decoys aside, the chances of any survivors ( including the most die-har
> rollercoaster fanatic ) being willing to do it twice would be virtually nil. 

Consider the situation a paratrooper jumped into in WWII. It wasn't all
*that* different. 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 01:28:01 PST
Subject: Re: RE Orbital bombardment and Planetary Invasions

Bri <bri@teleport.com> writes:

>  All this discussion has me curious...
>  What would the impact of one of these KKMs look like(how would you
> describe it) and would it be a blast-type weapon or a narrorw impact(?)..

There's a Scientific American from 10-15 years back that has a
*daylight* photo of ICBM warheads re-entering at the Kwajalien test
range. What you see are three *straight* white lines crossing the photo
from sky to ground. 

The white is the "plasma sheath" caused by friction with the
atmosphere. Orbit to surface bombardment weapons would probably have
these too. And the trajectory would look straight because they are
moving so fast.

Thus, from a distance, it'd almost look like a classical SF energy beam!

You are going to get a blast regardless. But if the projectile is
shaped like a long rod, moving end first, you'll get something of a
"shaped charge" effect, greatly increasing penetration, and somewhat
reducing the "spread" of the blast.

By the time you get up to the kiloton range, it doesn't really matter.
You'll get a crater, and a nice mushroom cloud. You'll even get some
X-rays and gamma rays on impact. But the fallout won't be radioactive.

If you really don't give a damn about the planet, drop a 2 km nickel
iron asteroid at about 40 km/s (a not unreasonable velocity for even a
*natural* impact). Aim it at an ocean, and you'll at the very least
*totally* screw up the planetary weather system for decades, and at
worst cause either a runaway greenhouse or a "nuclear winter" (there
are good arguments in favor of both outcomes)

If you did this in the Pacific Ocean, the tidal wave would travel
around the world several times. And it'd be on the order of the depth
of the ocean for about the first 12,000 miles. Forget ships and subs.


> 
> 
>  Thanks.
> 
> bri <bri@teleport.com>
> The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
> poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
> bread.      -- Anatole France
> 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 19:08:59 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: [none]

>
[The Rock Dropping snipped]
>Ya cool.  But cool in the way people rubber neck at an accident scene cool.
>Personally I think that we should really drop this concept.  The idea of
>dropping a boulder on a planetoid at 10,000 KPS is pretty morally repugnant
>and it goes against everything that the Traveller universe CT MT TNE and T4
>beleive in.  THough I wouldn't put it past Lucan.

        Well, the thing is though is that it's not hard to do... so somebody
is sure to do it at some point (and stopping it from happening might make a
neat segment of a campaign).  I'd argue for including it, purely because I
tend to prefer darker, grittier game seetings over squeaky-clean,
family-values-oriented type game settings where everyone wears drycleaned
designer jumpsuits, drinks Synthohol, and obeys the Prime Directive :).
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 19:09:02 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Rocks & Planet Killers: a possible solution (longish)

        Today I was down on the waterfront in Hong Kong, and I saw several
jets come in for landing at Kai Tak airport; for those of you who haven't
heard about this airport; it's one runway, sticking out into the harbour, at
the foot of a mountain.  747's come in from the west on final approach,
flying down the mountainside, and then make a hard right turn almost at
rooftop level over a residential neighbourhood (from my point of view, I
would see them begin the turn, see a little planform show, and then they'd
disappear behind some buildings) before straightening out and landing.  It's
a wild ride; when I flew in here in May it was on the tail end of a
thunderstorm; even through the rain I could see into people's apartments.
Thank God, they've never had a crash on final approach...

        This got me thinking about the planet killer debate that's been
going on, where people have been angsting over how even a small ship's
drives or accumulated kinetic energy could seriously ruin a planet's
geological epoch (747's smearing Kowloon, high-speed ships smearing planets;
same concept:>).  I've come up with a way in which some systems may deal
with this menace.  The solution?  In-system speed limits under certain
circumstances, strict Space Traffic Control beginning out at about the Oort
Cloud, and some serious planetary defense weaponry to deal with dangerous
traffic offenders :).

        Basically, the navigational guides for a given system will describe
certain "spaceways", much as today's maps for air navigation provide airways
for commercial air traffic.  Essentially, a large volume of space around the
inner part of the system or the important worlds therein will be termed
"Controlled Space" and be continuously monitored.  Ships exiting jump space
will have to report in to System Space Traffic Control a long ways out, and
tower will evaluate priority and assign a trajectory and velocity that will
take them along very safe routes towards their destination.  Likewise,
in-system traffic will be filing flight plans, and following them pretty
much to a T.  All traffic will be continuously be tracked and monitored.
Save for craft operating outside of the system's Controlled Space, ships
will have to rigourously adhere to traffic regulations.  Ships violating
them will be fined.  Potentially dangerous violations-in-progress will
result in alerted planetary defense systems, and if it looks like a runaway
ship is accelerating towards a populated world, the planetary defense system
destroys it if no other measures will succeed.

        Once in orbit, control will be handed over to Planetary Traffic
Control.  Again, if some joker does some dangerous HEPLaR driving, he'll get
fined, and if it looks like he's going to do some impromptu urban renewal
the PDS kicks in and puts a stop to the problem ASAP.

        Visualize the system as Dirty Harry on steroids with PMS on traffic
patrol, and everybody knowing it :).  It may seem kind of extreme, but then
again we're dealing with planetary-sized populations: what's a ship and its
potentially terroristic crew compared to a few billion lives?
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 19:09:05 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>At 08:00 AM 6/13/96 -0400, Roderick Elliot wrote:
>
>>Douglas E. Berry wrote:
[snip]
>
>While you hopefully supress the enemy aerospace force from orbit the
>clearing I'm think of is of a different nature.  Small well concealed missle
>teams in a 100km radius around the most likely targets.  Even a handheld SAM
>can cause serious shit for a lander.
>[snip]
>Aerospace fighters would patrol a designated corridor, looking for any sign
>of SAM launch (or laser weapons) and then bring such sites under immediate
>attack.

        Yeah, you've got a point there :).  Then again, there's the Desert
Storm example: troops went in only after weeks of heavy bombing, and took
only minor casualties.  This is the sort of approach that I'm advocating...
I think that we're only disagreeing on one point: I'm bullish on detection
and neutralization from orbit, whereas you're much less optimistic.

>
>The bad guys have had days at least to know this is coming.  More than
>enough time to hide from orbital recon.  I was part of an experiment in 1985
>where we hid a Mechanized Brigade in the middle of the desert for a full
>day.  The satellites could not see us.  :) 
>

        OK...  I'm willing to admit that I might have been (I doubt we'll
find out for sure this lifetime anyhow :>) optimistic and that more PBI
would have to get dropped in and shot at.  Now, given that individual
referees will make things go the way they want, what about the following
topic: how does one successfuly repel an invading force with orbital
superiority?
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #95
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 14 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 096

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
         2. RE: Rock dropping again...no no no no no!
         3. medical gasoline
         4. Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters
         5. Re: Task/Skill Resolution for T4
         6. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
         7. Re: To Chris
         8. Re: Gun Racks
         9. Re: Orbital bombardment and morale...
        10. RE: Orbital bombardment (again...)
        11. Re: Gun Racks
        12. TNE and the GDWful Virus
        13. QSD System Available
        14. RE: Whining
        15. Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters & Planet Killers (oh my!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Chris Lloyd <cdl@delcam.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 13:05:40 +0100
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

Roderick Darroch Elliott writes:
> Then again, there's the Desert Storm example: troops went in only
> after weeks of heavy bombing, and took only minor casualties.

You don't mention those forces operating from behind enemy lines.
Those who went in to act as forward observers to spot the Scud
launchers... but that's a different thread entirely.

I don't believe you can write off orbital drops of foot troops.  It
seems there will always be a use for foot troops even if it's not in
the public eye,

			Chris.


------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:02:24 -0400
Subject: RE: Rock dropping again...no no no no no!

Bruce Johnson <johnson@tonic.pharm.Arizona.EDU> writes:
> Gerald Williams brought up the old 'Killer Rock' debate...which I 
> hope dies down.

My intent is quite the opposite. Killer rocks at "natural" speeds are
bad enough. Bring them up to >0.1c and any idiot can trash a planet,
with little chance of being stopped. I'm proposing a *solution* that
takes this capability out of the hands of civilians. I don't even care
how it works, although I've suggested one possible way.

Now would be the time to eliminate this debate once and for all, don't
you agree? Preferably without relying solely on "social abhorrence"--
governments *do* treat nuclear/chemical/biological weapons in the hands
of civilians (as well as planes/cars in restricted areas) as threats
and take *decisive* action to eliminate these threats. For example, in
Traveller this might mean destroying *any* foreign ships as soon as
they jump in-system and forcing civilians to transfer their cargo
and/or passengers to a government-run ferry at a nearby "free port"
system. That should be a sign of an *extremely* paranoid government,
not "just plain common sense".

BTW, I don't even care if the solution to the planet-killer problem is
explained in T4. But T4 should be flexible enough (as CT was) to assume
the solution exists. The problem is that the technology *is* getting
explained (in part due to extremely detailed design systems), and it
isn't consistent with the Traveller universe (a universe where free
traders can move about without SDB escorts, for example).

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

From: Matt & Ellen McLaughlin <mkm@umr.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 08:21:21 -0500
Subject: medical gasoline

Glenn wrote:
> 
> From: sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin)
> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:27:04 -0700 (PDT)
> Subject: gasoline on the medical/first aid debate
> 
> I've been refereeing a campaign set in the Fifth Frontier War for some time.
> The main player character mustered out (using Book 5 chargen) as an Imperial
> Navy Master Chief Petty Officer with five terms in the medical branch and
> med-3.
> 
[snip]
> 
> Neither my player nor I have actual military experience, so I'd welcome
> comments from the veterans on the list.  What do senior NCOs with a lot of
> medical skill do in the late 20th century?
> 
> - --Glenn
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
One possibility is independant duty with a unit too small to warrant a 
doctor.  US Submarines carry Navy corpsmen (an enlisted rating, similar
to an Army MOS) who have been specially certified for independant duty.
They are authorized to dispense drugs and trained to perform minor
surgery, etc.  Significantly beyond your normal EMT.  In fact, ours
was licensed by UT Austin to teach the EMT(Basic) course.  Of course, 
at the E-9 level, they tend to be senior
NCO in the squadron office or some such.  OBTW, most have combat exper-
ience with the Marines, if possible.  The guy on my boat was a VN vet.
Most of them are E-6 or E-7.

 	Matt McL

------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:57:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters

On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch) writes:
> 
> > On 06/12/96 at 09:40 AM,  "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
> > If I ram a planet with the "zeta field" on, it collapes and my
> > momentum (the energy I transfer to the planet) is only what I'd have
> > built up accelerating at .01g.
> 
> That *does* seem to be what he's saying. 
> 
> Unfortunately, when you ram the planet, zeta field or no, you *must*
> have a KE at least equal to that which you'd have gotten by free
> falling to the planet. And that gets fairly hefty.

   That seems to be a serious problem, I don't think you could make such a
field work - their are just too many violations of the laws of physics as
we know it. I don't think you could get away from a time dilation effect
either. (PLEASE don't ask - I don't want to get into the math) If someone
brought such a field into the game, I would throw it out - it would just
ruin my suspension of disbelief.

> Also, what happens if a kinetic kill projectile hits your ship? If the
> zeta field affects it, it won't hit as hard. If the field *doesn't*
> affect it, then it's possible that your ship will "bounce" out of the
> way.

  Another violation of the laws of conservation. E.E. Smiths reversion of
inertial "rest velocity" works better.

> I know that folks are worried about the dangers of planetbusters, and
> even just "dropping rocks". But the fact is that anything that will
> enable a ship to take off and get to 100 diameters carrying a fair
> amount of cargo is going to make certain "nasty" things possible. It
> comes with the territory.

   Bingo! Exactly my thoughts. I've been trying to mentally phrase a
response to the two people who've been trading messages on this for a
couple of days, and this just about does it. You just can't get away from
the fact that spacecraft *can* do damage - trying to get rid of reaction
drives (a mistake, IMO) just because the *realistically* can do some
damage is ludicrous. 

   Put some safeguards in, such as patrols. Make it illegal for a
trajectory to intercept the planets atmosphere. Violators get intercepted
and boarded. Anyone who tries to dodge get's their drive disabled *then*
they get boarded! <g> (Reaction plates and "unlimited" drive capabilities
make this *easier* not harder for planetary SDB's to push you away). Make
it necessary to enter parking orbit and receive a "harbour pilot" for
landing maneuvers. I believe these solutions should provide answers for
most of the concerns Eric has.

> Why don't people do this? Easy. Have you *priced* a jumbo jet?

   Another excellent point I was going to mention. NOBODY, except a crazy
man in a stolen ship is going to crash a Multi-MCr spacecraft into a
planet. Asteroids, maybe - but again SDB's would intercept at the
slightest hint that somebody was gathering asteroidal masses for a
collision.

   On crazy men - read some Niven, an advanced society probably has
methods to detect and deal with the major causes of mental problems.

> Thruster plates are the problem, but *only* as long as they are allowed
> to violate conservation of energy. If you fix that, then they aren't a
> problem. Of course,, this will piss off the folks who like them since
> it turns out that a "reactionless" drive that obeys conservation of
> energy is *less* efficient than your typical reaction drive.

   Out of curiousity, why do you believe this? A reactionless drive like
thruster plates would not require reaction mass - this creates efficiency
bonuses in it's own right, even when there are problems with energy
consumption. One major bonus I would see with reactionless thrusters in
Military craft would be the lack of "G" on the crew - provided you are
willing to pay for the thrusters and the power to run them, you could
generate a *heck* of a lot of EM.

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:00:02 -0700
Subject: Re: Task/Skill Resolution for T4

At 09:27 PM 6/13/96 -0700, you wrote:
>>From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>
>>
>>"Now lets see where was that data on Imperial Podiatrist character generation?
>>Book 8?  No...  Book 52?  no  damn it.  HARRY!  WHERE'S THE PODIATRIST?  I
>>know he's on the corner!  In the manuals, where is he in the manuals?"
>
>Here is another good reason for the game data to be released in
>computer-searchable format.  While it's great to be able to use spreadsheets
>to crank the last .00047 MW out of the battleship design, often one just
>wants to know where the podiatrist chargen table is, or where the Shionthy
>system is, or what the air speed of an African canary is, without having to
>look through 52 issues of JTAS.
>

I personally love the idea of a searchable CDROM with all the game stuff on
it.  However, it strikes me that most of us don't have our computers right
where we're playing.  Though in most instinces they are convenient, but some
of us, like me go to a friends place and he, the heathen, doesn't even own a
computer.  Actually I gave him an old 286 two weeks ago so he could type in
his stuff.

DS

PS Don't get me wrong I like the idea of a computer component.


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:07:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

On Fri, 14 Jun 1996, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:
> 
> Douglas E. Berry wrote:
[snippage]
> >The bad guys have had days at least to know this is coming.  More than
> >enough time to hide from orbital recon.  I was part of an experiment in 1985
> >where we hid a Mechanized Brigade in the middle of the desert for a full
> >day.  The satellites could not see us.  :) 
> 
>         OK...  I'm willing to admit that I might have been (I doubt we'll
> find out for sure this lifetime anyhow :>) optimistic and that more PBI
> would have to get dropped in and shot at.  Now, given that individual
> referees will make things go the way they want, what about the following
> topic: how does one successfuly repel an invading force with orbital
> superiority?

   Three words: Deep Meson Sites. Undestroyable from orbit, though you can
blind their sensors *if* you can find them. (Personally, I favour neutrino
detectors as a primary targetting sensor - no emissions to lock onto, and
are great for targetting fusion-powered starships)

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: tiger@datasync.com (Paul Walker)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:21:06 -0500
Subject: Re: To Chris

You Wrote:

>Chris grow up son, the loss of anyone from this newsgroup should be 
>greated with saddness, because we as a group has failed to 
>accommodate all the aspects of this game we love.

We can't accommodate anyone who isn't willing to compromise.  Shoot, I think
we all tried to accommodate everyone, but when someone is as mallible as
concrete, its rather hard to accommodate them.  Phil refused to give in on
any of his points.  While in politics and religion, this attitude is
praised, we are talking about a game here.  Besides, how many times has it
been said now.  Use the part of the rules you like and change the rest to
fit your preference.  I don't recall Phil ever mentioning exactly what he
wanted other than a reprint of CT!!!  You can't accommodat someone when they
won't even try to adjust and when they aren't reasonable about their demands!!!


> We can do without 
>your petty gloating, how old are you?

Your superior attitude is almost as bad as the gloating!!!  How many times
has Phil gotten on this list or the XTML and preached his ideas.  I even
seem to recall that when T4 was announced as "a return to CT in light of
twenty years of RP experience" Phil was the first to gloat.  If you don't
remember, I'll try to dig up the message in my files for you.


> I for one am sorry that 
>Phil took this approach, but it was his choice and I hope he 
>reconciders.

I'm not!!! And I don't!!  Phil liked to stir up hornets nests.  I once sent
a private email to him asking about why he did this.  Basically he told me
that he liked to take on the world.  He sure must have the way he did it!!
His final post was nothing more than an excuse to cause trouble.  He could
have just as easily left the mailing list and posted a private response to
IG.  Then no one would have had to read about his superior attitude.


>So please lets all try to get things in perspective here, all we want 
>is the goal posts to stop moving as various publishers try to cash 
>in.

I think what we all want is the best possible Trav ever.  In the beginning
this must include certain compromises from everyone.  Phil was unwilling or
unable to compromise!!


>I really hope T4 will be a good product, though I fear it'll be 
>something less.

I think your fears are un warranted!!  I'm looking forward to T4.  I loved
TNE and I hate to see the RC setting go, but do you see me whining about the
places where T4 is going to return to CT norms?  NO!!  I don't like the idea
of having only a few character classes like MM mentioned in his post.  I'd
like to see more non-military classes, but do I whine about it? NO!!!  I
mention my concern and hope it is addressed.  If it isn't then I'll live!
I'll either adapt my rules to include what I want, or I'll change my setting
or campaign to fit the Rule Book.


Sorry everyone, but this really ticked me off!!  I don't remember much
positive contribution from Phil.  I may be wrong and may just not be
remembering correctly, but all I seem to remember is him stirring up
trouble.  I try my best to avoid people like that, and whenever they leave a
group I'm part of, I always think it is for the best!


Paul  {tiger}

AKA - Ens. Roger Camp, USS Saratoga, Engineering Dept.
    - Captain Miller Philibus (Ret. Navy), BARD Director
    - Dr. Nathan Shukii, Traveller


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:32:26 -0700
Subject: Re: Gun Racks

At 01:01 AM 6/14/96 -0600, you wrote:
>On 06/13/96 at 11:53 AM,  Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com> said:
>
>>>I'm from Vancouver so far be it for me to argue with someone from a s
>>>one third of all pickup trucks have gun racks  8-)
>
>>You must have Texas confused with New York.  
>>The ratio here is more like 8 out of 10 :-).
>
>What you talking about?  Don't gun racks come standard on all pickup
>trucks?  I can't recall seeing any around here that don't have a
>rack...usually no guns in the rack, but they *all* seems to have
>racks. 
>
>Eris
>from the state that's shaped like a pistol! <g>

I though it was a factory option.  Like air conditioning, power mirrors, gun
rack. . .

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:38:27 -0700
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and morale...

At 02:44 PM 6/14/96 +0800, you wrote:
>
>Derek Stanley wrote:
>
>>
>>Because lobbing rocks down from orbit, and detonating nukes in the
>>atmosphere, while sound from a military point of view have a tendency to
>>produce counter productive results at home.  There's nothing wrong with
>>killing soldiers as far as the GP is concerned but killing civilians is
>>another story entierly.  And despite the best military coverups these things
>>have a way of getting out and once they do it becomes more and more
>>difficult for the military to do it's job effectively.
>>
>>DS
>
> Sounds like you need to fire your Minister of Propaga... er, Information :).

I tired.  He just won't go away though.  8)

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:41:00 -0700
Subject: RE: Orbital bombardment (again...)

At 02:44 PM 6/14/96 +0800, you wrote:
>
>Someone wrote:
>
>>
>>While I treasure _Starship Troopers_ as one of my favourite Sci-Fi novels, I 
>>personally can't see anyone with half a brain being willing to be sealed
>inside 
>>a tiny capsule (claustrophobic hell) and then fired as an uncontrolled
missile 
>>into space, through the nightmare of re-entry, and down through a hostile 
>>atmosphere where the locals are throwing everything in the panetary
arsenal at 
>>them. Decoys aside, the chances of any survivors ( including the most
die-hard 
>>rollercoaster fanatic ) being willing to do it twice would be virtually nil. 
>>
>
>        Well, personally, I wouldn't advocating dropping so much as a toy
>parachute onto a planet unless I was damn sure that there were no threats of
>any sort detectable from orbit.  Mobile infantry cost money to train, to
>equip, to feed, to carry, to patch back up together gain, etc, etc, etc.
>They're a valuable resource that should only be used where strictly neccessary.
>
>        Rocks, on the other hand are free.

Ya but if all they did was throw rocks at Normandy the second world war
would still be going on.  8)  Someone's got the make the sacrifice, and
you'll never completely supress the planets air defence.  I mean unless you
kill every living creature and you're still hoping they don't have a meson gun.

DS


------------------------------

From: merrick@rt66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 08:41:10 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: Gun Racks

> >>>I'm from Vancouver so far be it for me to argue with someone from a s
> >>>one third of all pickup trucks have gun racks  8-)
> >
> >>You must have Texas confused with New York.  
> >>The ratio here is more like 8 out of 10 :-).
> >
> >What you talking about?  Don't gun racks come standard on all pickup
> >trucks?  I can't recall seeing any around here that don't have a
> >rack...usually no guns in the rack, but they *all* seems to have
> >racks. 
> >
> >Eris
> >from the state that's shaped like a pistol! <g>
> 
> I though it was a factory option.  Like air conditioning, power mirrors, gun
> rack. . .

My big old wagoneer doesn't have a gun rack (it isn't a pick up, I
know)--but it should have one :-)  Then I can get a Lee-Enfield Jungle
Carbine to go with it.  Ah, excellent.

- -Merrick

------------------------------

From: Mark Urbin <eclipse@ultranet.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:56:25 -0400
Subject: TNE and the GDWful Virus

The Monkeys spewing out Stuart L. Dollar's butt typed
> On 13 Jun 96 at 13:48, derek stanley spewed:
> > I don't see how Virus was enmeshed in the rules.  Sure the Virus was
> > mentioned in background refrence materials but whether the virus was there
> > or not made no difference on the task determination etc.  It was all just
> > background for you to use or ignore at your own discression.
> Maybe the fact that there was a section on Virus in the main
> rulebook???  pp. 74-79 if you're looking.

  Minor, My big black CT book spends time telling me about trading in 
the Imperium & how the Imperium views psionics.

  A better example would be how starship crew sizes expanded, due to the
Virus.  

- -- 
 Mark Urbin eclipse@ultranet.com  http://www.ultranet.com/~eclipse/
It was a typical net.exercise -- a screaming mob pounding on a greasy 
spot on the pavement, where used to lie the carcass of a dead horse.
Opinions are MINE!  All Mine!  Bwwwaaaahhhh!

------------------------------

From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 10:44:19 -0400
Subject: QSD System Available

The full text of the Quick Ship Design System (QSD System) for the new
edition of Traveller is now available via my web site.  This is an easy,
"Book 2 like" starship design and customization system that I designed.  I
understand that it will be included with the basic rulebook for the new
edition of Traveller.

Currently, only formatted ASCII text and Microsoft Word 6 versions are
available, but a HTML version is also in the works, and will be added soon.

The QSD System lis located at:

	http://www.qrc.com/~wildstar/qsds/

Enjoy!  Please address any comments to me or the gdw-beta list!


Guy Garnett, aka
wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                "Oh, you fools!  Dance to your heart's content
                                 in that small world of yours.  Our world is
                                 the whole of space!"   --- Phantom F. Harlock

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:15:52 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: Whining

On Fri, 14 Jun 1996, ROWAN Iain wrote:

> What??  They're outdated?  Damn, I better go shopping.

Right.  Like RPG's (or videogames, for that matter) get any more outdated 
than any other sort of game.  It either has replay value or it doesn't.  
Candyland isn't outdated - not since there's always a new supply of young 
children who've never played it.  Same goes for Tic-Tac-Toe.  Some RPg's 
and videogames fall into the same category as those games: fun until you 
grow out of them.

Other RPGs and videogames are fun forever, like Chess, Backgammon, and 
Go are in the boardgame category.  I put Traveller in this 
category.  Others may not, and that's OK, too.  

I like the idea of Traveller growing and changing, and I'll economically 
support that.  But just because a new incarnation of a game comes out 
doesn't mean the older ones are useless.  They're still as fun as they 
always were - a new system doesn't change the old one, in other words.  

I'll stop on this subject now, before I get up on my soapbox about our 
throwaway society and the way we denigrate anything that isn't brand new. :)
(You're welcome! :D )


> But let's face it, there's going to be something in T4 that I am
> unhappy with.  There's going to be something in T4 that all the
> members of this list aren't going to like.  That's life.  In my
> opinion if you want a RPG that is totally perfect for you, and
> that exactly fits the way you view the far future, then write it yourself.

Whoo-woo!  Tell it, Iain! :)

> I'll just buy T4, and any bits I don't like, I will rewrite, or ignore, or
> replace with a rule that I do like.  The rules aren't a sacrosanct
> holy document, and you can alter the rules (or even shock horror
> the background) to suit yourself and your campaign without the
> ImperiumGames meninblack coming and abducting you.  

Yes, indeed.

> The reason I'm going to buy T4 is I think and hope that I'll want to
> change less than I did with CT or TNE.

Great post! I agree with what you've said.

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 11:39:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters & Planet Killers (oh my!)

Leonard Erickson writes:
> Unfortunately, when you ram the planet, zeta field or no, you *must*
> have a KE at least equal to that which you'd have gotten by free
> falling to the planet. And that gets fairly hefty.

No question about it, although planetary defense can do something
about this (which is not necessarily the case at >0.1c).

> Also, what happens if a kinetic kill projectile hits your ship?

It probably retains the same amount of kinetic energy, although its
actual velocity upon impact may be affected.

> Thruster plates are the problem, but *only* as long as they are allowed
> to violate conservation of energy.

I don't own FF&S, so I don't know if HEPlaR really fixes this problem
(it certainly could). HEPlaR also implies serious top-speed limits and
micro-jumps (yuck!). There's not much point discussing it, though. The
thruster plate decision has already been made.

> Of course, this will piss off the folks who like them since
> it turns out that a "reactionless" drive that obeys conservation of
> energy is *less* efficient than your typical reaction drive.

If you look at thrusters this way, then you'd better have a really
good reason for people to choose them over fusion rockets. I've been
assuming thrusters were much like traditional M-drives, in which
case a mass-nullifier like the zeta field is needed both to prevent
the "free energy" problem and to prevent planet-killers.

To me the issue is not reaction vs. reactionless drives. It's whether
ships have high accelerations/top speeds. If they do (which to me is
"canonical Traveller"), a small fix as I've suggested is needed.

> [ Regarding fusion rockets: ] The kinetic energy of the jet is
> 86e12 W or 86 terawatts.  But as I noted above, it's *very*
> concentrated. It'll go thru rock like an acetylene torch thru
> styrofoam.

So every free trader has a heavy-duty spinal mount weapon that is
1,433,333 times as powerful as a 60MW turret laser? I still think
*any* free trader can take out *any* space station on its way out
with these drives (and it doesn't even need to be that close).

I don't really want to fuel a debate about HEPlaR, though. My main
concern is that any drive that is capable of high acceleration or
high top speeds implies a tremendous threat (much more so than a
rogue 747). Yet the background of Traveller seems to imply that
civilians can own and freely operate starships without having big
guns pointed at them at all times (and certainly there are many
referees that would like to run their universe that way).

You don't have to buy the "zeta field" idea. But if the new FF&S
is going to explain the technology, it had better at least *leave
room* for referees to reconcile it with the Traveller universe.

- -O Gerald Williams / Bell Laboratories - PAI830 55E-224 O-
- -O gsw@lucent.com /   1247 South Cedar Crest Boulevard  O-
- -O (610)712-3370 /          Allentown, PA  18103        O-
- -O -------------/ "Innovations for Lucent Technologies" O-


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #96
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 14 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 097

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: 
         2. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
         3. Re: To Chris
         4. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #91
         5. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #92
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #93
         7. Re: More good reading
         8. Re: Starship Troopers
         9. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #90
        10. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
        11. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #92
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #93
        13. Dropping rocks/Medic NCOs
        14. Re: Dropping rocks for fun & profit
        15. Off Topic?  Sorry.
        16. Re: Planetary invasion vs. planetary destruction

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:06:32 -0700
Subject: Re: 

At 07:08 PM 6/14/96 +0800, you wrote:
>>
>[The Rock Dropping snipped]
>>Ya cool.  But cool in the way people rubber neck at an accident scene cool.
>>Personally I think that we should really drop this concept.  The idea of
>>dropping a boulder on a planetoid at 10,000 KPS is pretty morally repugnant
>>and it goes against everything that the Traveller universe CT MT TNE and T4
>>beleive in.  THough I wouldn't put it past Lucan.
>
>        Well, the thing is though is that it's not hard to do... so somebody
>is sure to do it at some point (and stopping it from happening might make a
>neat segment of a campaign).  I'd argue for including it, purely because I
>tend to prefer darker, grittier game seetings over squeaky-clean,
>family-values-oriented type game settings where everyone wears drycleaned
>designer jumpsuits, drinks Synthohol, and obeys the Prime Directive :).

Oh I agree there, someone is sure the hell going to try it.  Or do it, it's
terrorism on a planetary scale.  The world was outraged when that PANAM jet
was blown up over Locherby (sp?), imagine what the galaxy would think if the
armed forces did this regularly?  You think the Israelies have a problem
with internal security...  It'd be nothing compared to the problems this
would strike off.  All those people who were killed have relatives and
revenge is a dish best served cold.  Two years later the Imperium would
still be trying to root out terrorists retaliating for that attack.

DS


------------------------------

From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:15:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

At 10:07 AM 6/14/96 -0400, you wrote:

>   Three words: Deep Meson Sites. Undestroyable from orbit, though you can
>blind their sensors *if* you can find them. (Personally, I favour neutrino
>detectors as a primary targetting sensor - no emissions to lock onto, and
>are great for targetting fusion-powered starships)

Or Passive EMS.  Whatever you use if there's a meson site on the planet it
doesn't matter if you've got the entire Imperial navy in orbit, you're boned
you'll never find that sucker.

This is a point I've made before and I'm glad it's being stated again.
Often times you don't have the luxury of sitting in orbit for a month
pounding the snot out of the planet.  Besides in an extend military campaign
wasting the kind of resourses to do this just slows down your front and
weakens your flanks dramatically.

DS


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:39:34 -0800
Subject: Re: To Chris

On 14 Jun 96 at 9:21, Paul Walker spewed:

> Sorry everyone, but this really ticked me off!!  I don't remember much
> positive contribution from Phil.  I may be wrong and may just not be
> remembering correctly, but all I seem to remember is him stirring up
> trouble.  I try my best to avoid people like that, and whenever they leave a
> group I'm part of, I always think it is for the best!
> 

I have to agree here.  Very little in the way of positive discussion 
by Phil was ever seen.  Even when people were in agreement with him, 
he had a tendency to gloat.  On the other hand, its sad that he is so 
inflexible in his opinions, and so willing to burn his boats, when he 
did occasionally have something valid to say.

I for 1 have a feeling that not anyone group is going to get their way 
on T4 (Even Marc relented on FF&S, due to popular demand). 
I do have a feeling that there will be things about it that everyone will 
like.  

For those who weren't around when Marc Miller was at the helm, I think 
his tremendous vision about developing a real, living breathing universe 
was what took the game beyond the ordinary.  In the early GDW years, 
the game had such a realistic feel to it both good and bad.  The game was 
bigger than life.  I want that feeling back much more than I'm married to a 
rules system.  That looks like it will happen.  I used to buy each adventure 
& magazine, just to see what people were writing, what would happen 
next.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 11:50:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #91

>Actually that's not true.  If you study the effect of disease upon the
>native population of NA.  I've written several papers on the subject.  We
>find that there was a huge collapse of society in around 1000 AD, now we may
>think that this is all well and good but when we look at it.  It was only a
>short while before hand, can't remember the exact date anymore, that the
>vikings first landed in Newfoundland.  Remember the black plague spread

Are you suggesting that the black plague may have been carried from NA
to Europe by the vikings?  Very interesting theory.  I understand that 
a small body of paleontogists believe the dinasours died out when
germs spread accross the land bridge between Europe and NA.

I've read somewhere someone suggested that the Valani lost their 
empire to the solomani not because of military power but because
they had no defense against the comman cold, carried to the stars
by the humans of earth.




------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 11:50:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #92

>Population codes should also be linked to surface area-- except possibly on
high
>tech worlds-- to prevent the existence of a planet like Rethe (2408) in the SWM
>with a UWP of "E230AA8-8...323...G7-V".  According to the UWP this system has a

Traveller is a game about interesting situations.  If the rules only allowed 
high populations on 'garden' worlds it would get pretty boring.
Here are some ideas to explain Rethe off the top of my head:

#1
The population is not human.  The Rethians are tiny intelligent
hive creatures that must live in large social communities.  

#2
Humans live on the planet, which is a total welfare state.
Income and size of your housing depend on how many children
you support.  (A good question for PC Travellers is finding
out were all the money comes from to support this situation!)

#3
Rethe is a storage world for the terminally ill.
Individuals stay in low berths until a cure for their illness
can be found.  Power is most likely solar.  At most only
a few thousand people realy live on Rethe but as the ill
are not dead they are still counted.

#4
Rethe is a physically stable planet with great mineral wealth.
Over the last several hundred years mining of the planet
has produced vast tunnels and chambers that now provide 
living space.  Social standing of miners is based on
the size of their families.  The government wants to
restrict off world contact so it has not allowed expansion 
of the starport.

As a GM much of my enjoyment of Traveller comes from being able to find
explanations for seemingly odd results of the dice.  

**********************************************

> Even a hundred years ago it was known - (from Sir Arthur Conan
> Doyle, "A Scandal in Bohemia"):

Anyone care to suggest a UPP for Sherlock Holms and Doctor Watson?

**********************************************

>This, of course, works hand-in-hand with the multitude of Milieux that IG 
>will be supporting.  No matter which of the official Traveller universes 
>you like, there will be one for you...plus other, new ones! 

And if we are only interested in the rules and not 'official universes'?

- -Daniel





------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 11:50:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #93

>CT had a lot going for it and using it as the basis for T4 is a good 
>idea. But IG realized, as it was inevitable, that repackaging CT and 
>slapping a new name on it was just not marketable.

And slapping a new name onto Next Error is not?

>For every quitter like Phil, I'm willing to bet that 10 newcomers jump 
>on board who wouldn't have if word of mouth had spread about the 
>inadequacies of a revised CT.

Maybe you are willing to bet, but remember IG must make a profit out
of this venture.  Are they so willing to bet that Classic Traveller
would be inadequate?

>A fellow TML member (whose anonymity shall be protected) related to me 
>some time back his opinion that all the CT'ers who thought they were 
>going to get CT II were in for a big surprise. Well, guess what: 
>SURPRISE! Sorry your dreams are shattered but you were never the target 
>audience anyway. 

And you think "you" alone are the target audience?!!!!

>Now, if you mean that "Traveller" consists of using lame 
>6-siders and little black books, well...  'Bye,  BUT I think that

Lame 6-siders?  Care to explain why using only one type of die is a bad thing.

>Marc has put together one helluva team that is trying like the
>dickens to do what WE the Consumers want (even if we don't
>resemble the market share at large...).
>
>MMT is going to have some of the simplicity of CT, but also
>will have a lot of the nice detail-oriented features that MT and
>TNE both tried to incorporate...

Maybe MT and Next Error died because of the nice detail-oriented features
they both tried to incorporate.

>want Classic Traveller (or should that be "Catholic" for you)?  Fine.  My
>gamestore has a blackbox for $10US.  I'll mail it to you.

I see that Classic Traveller is still competing nicely for shelf 
space in many places!

***************************************

>If psychiatry were a separate skill, it would be used in, for example, the
>following ways:
>- -to diagnose another character (PC or NPC) whose behavior had become
>maladptive, e.g., because of loss of SAN (whoops, wrong game), exposure to
>jump space, ingestion of psychoactive substances,
>congenital/hormonal/genetic problems, etc.

These are all easily covered by existing medical skill.

>- -in place of interrogation skill

Why not just use interrogation?

>- -in administering psychoactive substances for various purposes

You mean give out drugs?  That's something anyone can do with or 
without medical skill.  Not all planets will have an FDA.

>- -to foment or dispell conflict among others

You mean rather than come up with a true solution the player 
will just role vers their phychiatic skill.

>Psychiatry-3 should also provide an increase in Social Standing, because the
>character has to spend that money somehow.

What?  So are you including Psychiatry simply to allow a player the
chance to advance in social standing?  Besides, spending money
to increase social standing was a rule tossed into MegaTraveller
because most people (Frank C.) weren't creative enough to find
real uses for Social Standing.


- -Daniel


------------------------------

From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:53:49 -0700
Subject: Re: More good reading

Davud Broussard writes
>If you really
>want to get a feel for the Imperial Navy, I would strongly recommend the
>Horatio Hornblower series by C.S. Forester, and the Master and Commander
>series by Patrick O'Brien (at the very least it is O' something).

Hear him, hear him! It's Patrick O'Brian, and they are *wonderful* books.
Everyone in the entire world should go out and read them all, 
immediately.  Ever since I read them all I've been thinking what a 
wonderful campaign you could build around a small naval warship in a
suitable setting (war in a low-force-density/low population density
region, so there's usually only one or two small ships per setting.) 
Napoleonic naval warfare and society doesn't map one-to-one to SF
(no matter how hard David Feintuch and David Weber try), but it's a good
source of atmosphere. 

(I've got a bunch of FFS designs for short-range high-damage x-ray
lasers I call "carronades", by the way...)

Bruce Macintosh

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:02:00 -0800
Subject: Re: Starship Troopers

On 13 Jun 96 at 14:21, Jim Vassilakos spewed:

> > to do it twice would be virtually nil. My personal opinion is that the
> > movie ALIENS go it about right, with the concept of a "Drop Ship".

OK...

Let's think about this for a sec.  A single "Drop Ship" is going to 
make it through a system's planetary defenses (deep meson guns, etc), 
its Close Orbit & Aerospace defenses (AA & Aircraft, which are far 
more maneuverable than a Drop Ship will ever be), and then after the 
enemy has been tracking it all the way down, a few 100 or thousand 
troops are going to come pouring out right into a killing zone that 
the enemy has set up as they watched the thing drop out of orbit.  

I doubt it would make it to the planet's surface intact.  If it did, 
the enemy knows exactly where it landed, and exactly where to send 
the grav tanks, battle dress equipped troops, etc.  I would imagine 
planetary assault, against a competent, high tech enemy to be a dicey 
proposition at best.  For those who haven't read it, I highly 
recommend the account of the 5th Frontier War as written in Spinward 
Marches Campaign.  The Zhodani spent the better parts of 3 years trying to 
subdue the systems of Jewell & Efate without success.  

Actually, the whole debate might be pointless, as I would suspect that the 
only way such a system would fall would be after a prolonged siege weakened 
the defenses (no more imported spare parts, or food, or in the case of some 
worlds, water), followed by assault.

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 18:09 BST-1
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #90

In-Reply-To: <199606131625.MAA08444@NS.MPGN.COM>

In message , owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM said:
> From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 08:40:01
> -0700 Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment
>  
>> land and pick up the troops later anyway. Armed Drop Ships could act as
> Airborne 
>> command posts, and provide fire support to the troops on the ground, as
> well as 
>> medevac services. 
>>  
>> And they're cheaper to operate than Heinlens disposable Drop Capsules, and
> don't 
>> require special tubes or other non-standard services on starships.
>  
> Ya but all it takes is one guy with a SAM and you can kiss twenty marines,
> their battle dress, the lander and any vehicals good-bye.  The odds of
> hitting a paratrooper under canapy are pretty remote, it's the old golden
> BB theory.  Throw every thing you've got at them and hope you hit
> something.

Two points: 

1) Dropships are faster - they can come down under power, stopping at the
last minute (inertial compensators stop the Marines being smeared all over
the inside), so they're vulnerable for less time.

2) They'll be equipped with various jammers, decoys, and anti-missile
defences, so they're harder to hit.

I see three classes of target:

1) Safe: come down in large troop carriers

2) Dangerous: dropships/G-Carriers

3) V dangerous/stealthy: drop capsules


                      --------=====OOO=====--------
Andrew Boulton                         http://www.compulink.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste..."

------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:11:32 -0700
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

At 08:01 AM 6/14/96 -0400, Roderick Elliott wrote:

>Douglas E. Berry wrote:

>        Yeah, you've got a point there :).  Then again, there's the Desert
>Storm example: troops went in only after weeks of heavy bombing, and took
>only minor casualties.  This is the sort of approach that I'm advocating...
>I think that we're only disagreeing on one point: I'm bullish on detection
>and neutralization from orbit, whereas you're much less optimistic.

In Desert Storm we were able to interdict the Iraqui forces in Kuwait.  They
could not receive any supplies due to unrelenting air attack.  When the
Groun Phase began, the VII Corps found itself involved in the largest tank
battle since Kursk (WWII).  While 80,000 Iraqis had surrendered in Kuwait,
the ones who still had supplies fought on, and fought well.

Have you read Worldwar, by Harry Turtledove?  It describes an alien invasion
of Earth in 1942, forcing the various nations of Earth to unite to drive the
invaders out.  One of the points it makes is the "home field advantage" of
fighting for your homeworld.  You have stockpiles, freindly locals, and a
superior knowledge of terrain.

Two notes on observering things.  First, find a book, "A lonely kind of
war", written by a USAF Forward Air Controller.  He makes some excellent
observations about the difficulty involved in this kind of op.  

Second, a personal anecdote:  I was chosen to be pointman for a patrol one
night, and issued a set of AN-PVS/5 Goggles (Light Intensifier Goggles).
These are difficult to use, as there are no shadows at night.  We were
scouting for an armor unit.. 12 M1 tanks.  Should be easy, right?  I was
walking along when I ran into something head first.  At first I thought it
was a tree branch, but on closer inspection..

I had walked into the muzzle of a 105mm main gun.  I never saw the damn
thing, and I was 3 METERS from it.  The crew inside were amused, they had
seen us from 600m with the thermographic sights.

Never assume that high technology will help.

>        OK...  I'm willing to admit that I might have been (I doubt we'll
>find out for sure this lifetime anyhow :>) optimistic and that more PBI
>would have to get dropped in and shot at.  Now, given that individual
>referees will make things go the way they want, what about the following
>topic: how does one successfuly repel an invading force with orbital
>superiority?

You make it too damn difficult to hold ground.  Make him burn his supplies
faster than he hoped.  Make sure that where ever he lands, partisans spring
up.  Take every oppurtunity to inflict damage.  Wait him out.

# ------------------------------------------------- #
#  Douglas E. Berry              dberry@hooked.net  #
#    Writer, Professional Driver, Traveller Guru    #
#                                                   #
#   "I'm still standing, better than I ever did,    #
#        Lookin' like a true survivor,              #
#      Feeling like a little kid"  -Elton John      #
#     1st Anniversary of my ongoing battle with     #
#         Hodgkin's Disease -- 7 June, 1996         #
# ------------------------------------------------- #


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:15:17 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #92

On 14 Jun 96 at 11:50, Daniel spewed:

> As a GM much of my enjoyment of Traveller comes from being able to find
> explanations for seemingly odd results of the dice.  

Amazingly enough, I find myself in agreement with you for once, 
Daniel... :-)

> And if we are only interested in the rules and not 'official universes'?

Then use the rules you like and make up your own.  You hardly need 
guidance from us to do that.  But we have the right to disagree with 
your premises as well, and not want exactly what you want.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:15:17 -0800
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #93

On 14 Jun 96 at 11:50, Daniel spewed:

> I see that Classic Traveller is still competing nicely for shelf 
> space in many places!
> 

Probably more like, it's been rotting on the same shelf for years.

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 23:09:00 +0900
Subject: Dropping rocks/Medic NCOs

>>From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
>>Subject: Dropping rocks for fun & profit
>>Bri posed the question of what a "dropped rock" would look like on impact.

Craig, that was such a good description that my own imagination scared the crap out of me.

>>Navy Master Chief Petty Officer with five terms in the medical branch and
>>med-3. 
>>comments from the veterans on the list.  What do senior NCOs with a lot of
>>medical skill do in the late 20th century?

>>- --Glenn

Simple.  They're medics.  That character sounds like a medic NCO to me.

Armand
ex-US Army corporal


------------------------------

From: Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 11:15:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Dropping rocks for fun & profit

Bri asked, re dropped rocks:
> I was wondering tho, what would cause the yellow n white fireball that
> you were describing and why woulden't all of the KE simply go into the
> ground? 

It does, but then the *ground* goes elswhere. :) Remember, kinetic energy
(KE) is energy of motion, equal to 0.5*mv^2.  When our big rock slams into
the planetary surface, v^2 goes from around 140km2/s2 to zilch in less
than a second.  Multiply those figures by a mass of many thousand tons,
and you're talking a *big* energy drop.  Where does all that energy go? 
Three places, primarily. 

1) Heat.  This is what creates the yellow and white flecks, and general
   red glow, of the post-impact debris cloud.  By the way, to convince
   yourself that a collision can turn KE into heat, just clap hard for
   a minute or so, then note the temperature of your palms.

2) Ejecta.  An impact tends to throw material away from the point of
   impact, much like the way water splashes when a rock's thrown into
   it.  The ejecta is moving quickly, and carries a fair amount of KE.

3) Ground shock.  A compression wave through the ground ripples away from
   the point of impact at high speed, carrying a good bit of energy.

The dynamics of crater formation are fascinating, by the way.  For 
example, over a wide range of impact angles, the resulting crater remains 
circular; only very shallow impact angles dig elongated craters.  Also, 
for very large impacts, the material at the point of impact tends to 
"rebound" instants after the crater forms; that's why so many lunar 
craters feature a central peak, for example.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
      Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
   |    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
 --*--  Member, CyberDesigns Team:  http://www.cyber-designs.com/
   |    Member, HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
      "Every man and every woman is a star."


------------------------------

From: Armand Suarez <suarez@on.rim.or.jp>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 03:10:51 +0900
Subject: Off Topic?  Sorry.

>>2) In the marines, *everyone* carries a rifle, and knows how to use it.

That's true in the Army too.

Armand


------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 07:32:10 PST
Subject: Re: Planetary invasion vs. planetary destruction

Craig Berry <cberry@hollywood.cinenet.net> writes:

> Now we come to the nebulous Rules of War.  One might imagine that, just 
> as we've restrained ourselves from lobbing nukes at one another for 50 
> years here on Terra, future societies might tacitly or explicitly agree 
> that wholesale devastation of planetary surfaces using raw kinetic energy 
> bombs is a Bad Thing.  One can imagine various War Departments making 
> secret plans on how to push rocks around should it come to that, but 
> being restrained by political considerations from ever actually doing 
> so.

Not so minor detail. Unlike nukes, kinetic weapons don't contaminate
the target area. And they don't have the scale effects that limit nukes
to *big* bombs.

Ortillery is just throwing smaller rocks. A 2 kg "rock" (actually more
of a crowbar) at orbital velocity is going take out a tank. Larger
"rocks" for larger targets.

The "free" KE *is* an advantage. And it's unlikely that any "rules of
war" will outlaw it. What will get outlawed will be "weapons of mass
destruction". Which basicly means city killers and up. 

Dropping a truck sized rock on a naval base or other miltary target
will likely be perfectly OK, as long as it isn't in the middle of a
city. Even then, there's always the option of blaming the collateral
destruction on the enemy for placing such targets where they can't be
attacked without injuring civilians. Think back to the Gulf War. We
used that line and in general it was accepted as long as we showed that
we were *trying* to restrict targets to military installations. 

Random bombing (like the Iraqi Scuds) is never going to be acceptable.
 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #97
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 14 June 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 098

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
         2. Re: Dropping rocks for fun & profit
         3. Re: Rock dropping again...no no no no no!
         4. RE: M-drives & Zeta Field
         5. Re: gasoline on the medical/first aid debate
         6. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
         7. Re: Dropping rocks for fun & profit
         8. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #94
         9. Re: Dropping rocks for fun & profit
        10. Traveller Sale/Auction
        11. Re: RE Oribtal Bombardment
        12. Re: [T96#89] Zeta Field/Bergenholm
        13. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #96
        14. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
        15. QSDS Corsair
        16. A Modified Skill List [Long]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 11:19:53 PST
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net> writes:

> would have to get dropped in and shot at.  Now, given that individual
> referees will make things go the way they want, what about the following
> topic: how does one successfuly repel an invading force with orbital
> superiority?

One doesn't. 

If they've got orbital superiority, there's *no* way folks on the
ground are going to take that away. Consider Iraq. They lost air
superiority and couldn't get it back. 

On the other hand, that's a *long* ways from being able to occupy, much
less *pacify* the planet. Again, consider Iraq. We beat the stuffing
out of them, but as far as I can't tell, they'd cheerfully have another
go at it.

You have to make it too expensive to "take" the planet, or failing
that, make *holding* it as expensive as possible.

One of the main factors affecting this sort of thing is whether or not
the attackers have to worry about "public opinion" back home. If they
don't, then they can do things like kill civilians in retaliation for
soldiers and equipment lost.

If they do have to worry about public opinion, then you can make things
*very* expensive (can you say "Vietnam"? or "Afghanistan"?)

BTW, "Mr. Fusion" and "fusion+" mean that there *won't* be a power grid
to knock out. And the "neutrino background" on the planet is going to
be high enough to mask a *lot* of things. 

And guerillas who don't need to worry about fuel and power are going to
be *real* hard to beat.



Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 09:22:44 PST
Subject: Re: Dropping rocks for fun & profit

derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca> writes:

> Ya cool.  But cool in the way people rubber neck at an accident scene cool.
> Personally I think that we should really drop this concept.  The idea of
> dropping a boulder on a planetoid at 10,000 KPS is pretty morally repugnant
> and it goes against everything that the Traveller universe CT MT TNE and T4
> beleive in.  THough I wouldn't put it past Lucan.

Hate to tell you this, but what he described was a *large* (10 meter)
boulder at a measly 30 km/sec or so.

Dropping "rocks" at 10 to 30 km/s is going to happen. It's mostly
*much* smaller "rocks" and called "ortillery". At 30 km/s a *baseball*
will take out a tank. 

Personally, I think he overdid it. Unless that comm center was buried a
hundred meters undrgound.

On the other hand, have you ever seen pictures of what even "ordinary"
bombs do?

Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 09:06:36 PST
Subject: Re: Rock dropping again...no no no no no!

bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) writes:

> It's worth noting that giant-rock-dropping is only attractive because 
> thruster plates provide delta-V free of the rigours of conservation of energy
> if you use reaction drives, giant rocks require so much energy to get into
> place that they aren't actually all *that* attractive compared to nuclear
> weapons. (The extreme case, of course, being the lifeboat-at-0.1c problem.)

We aren't really discussing "giant rocks". Small rocks (a ton or so)
compare *very* favorably with nukes IF YOU ARE ALREADY IN ORBIT. And
the "flying telephone pole" and "flying crowbar" type of projectile is
not a problem at all, even if you are using reaction drives.

Remember, at a measly 3 km/s the KE of an object is equal to an equal
mass of TNT. And the KE goes up with the *square* of the velocity. So
at a not unreasonable 30 km/s, the 1 ton projectile is equal to 100
tons of TNT. At a normal orbital velocity of 9 km/sec it's only equal
to 9 tons of TNT.




Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 08:24:06 PST
Subject: RE: M-drives & Zeta Field

"Gerald S. Williams" <gsw@aloft.att.com> writes:

> Leonard Erickson writes:
> > [ reference to "mass nullifying zeta field" concept ]
> > Doesn't help as much as you think. Now, instead of getting kinetic
> > energy for free, you are getting *potential* energy for free.
> 
> Only if "mass nullifying" applies to gravitic effects as well, which
> I never claimed. It need only affect apparent mass for the sake of
> kinetic energy.

You misunderstood my point. Your *potential* energy depends solely on
your mass and your position with respect to the planet. So unless
turning off the field moves the ship to a *position* much deeper in the
gravity well, you *have* gained "free" potential energy. To not have
done so requires that your ship expend as much energy leaving the
planet as it would *without* the the zeta field.

> This is a good point, though. Anti-gravity devices
> have the same problem if you treat them as simply nullifying gravity.
> They must also require extra energy equalling the gained potential
> energy if you use them to help lift an object.

The difference in potential energy between two positions is the
difference in escape velocity times the mass of the object. This is
*not* a trivial amount.

Also, if the ship doesn't have *at least* orbital velocity for its new
position, you are in the *very* uncomfortable position of *falling*
back to the planet as soon as you cut the drive. 

> > Sure, the ship can cause quite a mess by "hovering" on the drive flame
> > and use steering jets to "walk" the flame across thing they don't like.
> 
> Exactly. These high Isp drives have a low cross-section, but this
> merely concentrates the same amount of energy in a smaller area and
> for a much greater distance. Thus, *any* ship can wreak havoc on a
> city from orbit. Or destroy a space station. You're right that it's
> not actually a "planet-killer", but it just doesn't fit in with the
> "feel" of Traveller, IMHO.

Sorry, but much of the SF I grew up reading had this as a possibility.
Hell, even Andre Norton had ships frying ground positions with their
jets. 

> > But not anyplace where people can shoot back.
> 
> Attacking a planet or station is not an action to be taken lightly.
> Yet if there is even the slightest chance of civilian ships doing
> this, they would not be allowed anywhere near either. Every one of
> them would have to be treated as a potential military threat.

In which case you have to explain why we allow civilian ownership of
jumbo jets and LNG tankers. They can be used to destroy a lot of real
estate too.

For that matter, do you have any idea what a Concorde or other large,
supersonic plane could do to a city just by making a low pass at Mach
2? I'll give you a hint. The shock wave from a *trainer* flying too low
caused damage to the Air Force academy that required replacing
structural steel members!

> If
> thruster plates don't pose this type of threat, then this level of
> security need only apply to ships with fusion rockets, nasty-looking
> weapons, *big* rocks in tow, etc. :-)

Sorry, but the dangers are *inherent* in *any* sort of practical
spacecraft. You have two choices. Live with the risks, or don't allow
spacecraft. Restricting spacecraft to the military is *not* an option.
Terrorists can get into the military. So can other sorts of people who
might do things they shouldn't with spacecraft.

Heck, just consider the number of deaths and amount of property damage
caused by freight train accidents! All those tank cars full of nasty
chemicals. Yet we don't control them any tighter than starships appear
to be controlled in Traveller.




Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 09:34:00 PST
Subject: Re: gasoline on the medical/first aid debate

sudet@well.com (Glenn M. Goffin) writes:

> Neither my player nor I have actual military experience, so I'd welcome
> comments from the veterans on the list.  What do senior NCOs with a lot of
> medical skill do in the late 20th century?

In the Navy, they get assigned as "independent duty corpsman" to
smaller ships. They are the closest thing to a doctor those ships have.
And they wind up doing a *lot* of doctor type stuff. They just don't
get paid as much. 

Anybody with that sort of experience could probably get an MD degree
with just a bit more "theory" type work, and spending enough time
sitting in classrooms to keep the AMA happy.



Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 09:41:29 PST
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> writes:

> The bad guys have had days at least to know this is coming.  More than
> enough time to hide from orbital recon.  I was part of an experiment in 1985
> where we hid a Mechanized Brigade in the middle of the desert for a full
> day.  The satellites could not see us.  :) 

Can you tell us any of the details? Or are they all classified?

If you can, I think it'd help give folks some ideas. 


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 11:05:48 PST
Subject: Re: Dropping rocks for fun & profit

Bri <bri@teleport.com> writes:

>  Hmm, that's what I wanted to hear :)
> 
>  I was wondering tho, what would cause the yellow n white fireball that
> you were describing and why woulden't all of the KE simply go into the
> ground?

It did. That's where the fireball came from. There's so much energy
that the "rock" (and much of what it hits) is converted to plasma at
temperatures normally seen only in nuclear explosions.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 14:18:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #94

>   Give three artists three blank pieces of paper and say "design an X"
>and you'll get three different ideas of what X should be. Give each of

Why is this a bad thing?

>> Remember, not every tech 14 radio has to have the same 
>> .0000034 megawatt power requirement.  
>
>   No, just the ones that have "X" range. <g>

So 'all' radios that use .0000034 megawatts of power will have "X" range?

>   ...but if you know the power consumption, you know what the players
>goal is and how hard the task is. (A .1MW radio is going to be a *lot*
>harder to power than a .001MW radio)

You're right, if I had the actually radio in front of me I could come up
with far more realistic tasks.  But if fixing a broken radio is the main
thrust of an adventure the game has far more problems than I would care
to get into.

>   Skill rolling also pretty well negates role-playing, I only use rolling
>to add a little spice and uncertainty. If players know their goal, and

I would aggree with this.  But in the case of fixing a broken radio, no
matter how much detail you have it still comes down to a random throw
of the dice.  A smart player would do everything they can to insure that
random throw is very much in their favor.

>come up with a *reasonable* plan to power up the radio ("We strip all the
>vac suits of their powerpacks, each powerpack is rated at 0.00342MW, all
>the party's packs should power the radio long enough to call the fleet")

Very good argument. In this case knowing the exact power reguirements
does allow the players some way to tell before the dice are rolled
what their chance for success is.

********************************************

>> There is a much
>> better novel: -The Forever War- by Joe Haldeman, that gives a much better
>> look at both combat, and the Army.

Don't forget -The Forever War- also gives as great a look at 
social issues involved with war.

- -Daniel


------------------------------

From: Bri <bri@teleport.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 12:26:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Dropping rocks for fun & profit

  Hmmm, one more question...

  When this rock hits, would it like water(the plasma from the rock and
surounding material) behaive like a droplet into water or would it be a
half sphere?
On Fri, 14 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Bri <bri@teleport.com> writes:
>
> >  Hmm, that's what I wanted to hear :)
> >
> >  I was wondering tho, what would cause the yellow n white fireball that
> > you were describing and why woulden't all of the KE simply go into the
> > ground?
>
> It did. That's where the fireball came from. There's so much energy
> that the "rock" (and much of what it hits) is converted to plasma at
> temperatures normally seen only in nuclear explosions.
>
>
> Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
>  shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
> leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort
>

bri <bri@teleport.com>
The Law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich, as well as the
poor, to sleep under the bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal
bread.      -- Anatole France


------------------------------

From: FKiesche3@aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 15:28:46 -0400
Subject: Traveller Sale/Auction

Greetings All:

We are about to enter the auction portion of my Traveller Sale/Auction. If
you want to see the list, please e-mail me!

BTW:

af255@ccn.cs.dal.ca (Rehan N. Ahmad)

...I'm having problems e-mailing you. Please contact me directly.

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche3@aol.com)



------------------------------

From: "'Jomama' Charles Pratt" <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 13:14:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: RE Oribtal Bombardment

On Fri, 14 Jun 1996, Roderick Darroch Elliott wrote:

> >But you have hit on an important point. There's no reason to use nukes.
> >Not only are they expensive, but they dirty up territory that you are
> >trying to capture.
> >
>
>         Exactly.  There are gazillions of rocks floating around that will
> cost you nothing save the thrust to move them onto target and won't cause
> nasty fallout problems (although I suspect "pseudo-nuclear" winter could be
> a problem if you used enough of them...

Why even bother flying through an asteroid belt?  Why not just drop out of
jump space with a couple hundred cubic meters of ice in various sized
chunks (which can be molded to a aerodynamically-condusive form, btw).
Cause, hey!  You want a popsicle?

- -----

	 "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
         Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
			    "MORDE MANUBRIUM MEUM."


------------------------------

From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 16:27:00 -0500
Subject: Re: [T96#89] Zeta Field/Bergenholm

T::>ereddoch@amaranth.com (Eris Reddoch) wrote:
 ::>> > a mass-nullifying "zeta field". With the field on, your "apparent mass"
 ::>> > is changed so that you go much faster [...]
 ::>>
 ::>> I accelerate out of orbit at .01g with my "zeta field' off.  I turn
 ::>> the "zeta field" on and my apparent mass drops to, say .2 tonnes, and
 ::>> my acceleration jumps to, oh let's say 10g.

T::>You've got it.

T::>It is very important to note that the "zeta field" generator
 ::>is properly called a "Bergenholm" (or just a "berg" for short).

 ROFL!  Just one minor nit - the berg neutralized _inertia_, not
 mass.  To me, neutralization of mass means mixing it with an
 appropriate quantity of anti-mass - either our kind, or negamatter.

 Hmmm...  Maybe the berg should be an alternatech in FFS2?

==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
- ---
 þ OLXWin 1.00b þ Nice guys finish last, but we get to sleep in.


------------------------------

From: Daniel <rkdious@metronet.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 15:55:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #96

>  Minor, My big black CT book spends time telling me about trading in 
>the Imperium & how the Imperium views psionics.

As a matter of point.  The big black CT book only gave you the
rules for trading in general.  It did not specify that these
rules were for trading in the Imperium.  Same for psionics.

But this brings up a good question.  Does anyone have any insight
into what's happen with psionics in T4?




------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 15:33:42 -0600
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

At 10:07 am 6/14/96 -0400, you wrote:
>   Three words: Deep Meson Sites. Undestroyable from orbit, though you can
>blind their sensors *if* you can find them. (Personally, I favour neutrino
>detectors as a primary targetting sensor - no emissions to lock onto, and
>are great for targetting fusion-powered starships)

        And just as handy for targetting fusion-powered Deep Meson Sites...
even if you separate them, your DMS is worthless once I nail the power source...
- --________________________________________________________________
   Dave Golden                           PGP Public Key available 
   goldendj@usa.net     http://www.usa.net/~goldendj/default.html

 'Eternal Vigilance Is The Price of Liberty' used to mean we watched 
 the government - not the other way around.


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 16:56:27 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: QSDS Corsair

I have created a Corsair ship using the QSDS system.  I tried to stay as 
close as possible to the ship detailed in Supplement 4, Citizens of the 
Imperium.  

Here it is:

Tons:  400		Volume: 358.5		Cost: 180.32 (135.2)
Crew:  21		Passengers (H/M): 0	Passengers (L): 20
Cargo: 122.7		Controls: Fib/Bridge	Tech Level: 11

08 Size Rating			02 Jump Rating
00 Fire Control Rating		03 G Rating / Heplar
03 Battery - 2-0-0-0		.697350069 Power Plant Rating
00 Battery			118.4 Fuel Rating
00 Battery			00 Meson Screen Rating
00 Battery			00 Sand Caster Rating
00 Battery			00 Damper Rating
00 Battery			A10 P4 J4 Sensors
00 Battery			
00 Battery			40 Armor	16 Structure

Crew Detail: 6 Engineers, 7 Electronics, Pilot, Astrogator, 3 Gunners,
	     3 Command.

===================
Discussion:

1)  There is no place on the USD chart to enter data on the Avionics (in 
my case, TL 11 Military) or communications (again, in my case, Improved 
TL-11).  Is this to be provided in the paragraph description, then?  Or 
did I miss something?

2)  The tables in the QSDS system should follow a standard format.  
Rather than having the Crew column in one place in one table and in 
another in a different table, put each column heading in the same place 
on each table.  if a column heading isn't needed for a given table, 
obviously just put the next one to the left that is needed in its place 
and adjust the others accordingly.  I found it bothersome to have to keep 
hunting for where the volume, price, crew, etc. were located on each table.

Other than those two quibbles, it is an excellent system!  Thanks, Guy!

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 18:25:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: A Modified Skill List [Long]

Hi All.  

The following skill list is a modified version of the one the Mark Miller 
posted to the TML a while ago.  His list had 81 skills.  This one has a few 
more (total of 96 skills).  I've tried to keep things basic, in light of 
several requests to KISS, but wish to say that I personally feel that 
keeping the number of skills down is unimportant.  It does not complicate 
things to have lots of skills.  One simply rolls against "Pistol, Slug" 
instead of "Firearms".  I don't see how this makes things any more 
complicated for players or GMs.


SPECIALIZATION 
For those of you who prefer a more detailed skill system, I suggest an
optional "specialization" rule, whereby one can pick a more specific area
within a discipline and recieve 1.5 * skill level (round down) in it while
recieving only .5 * skill level (round up) in every other aspect of that
skill.  Some GMs may wish to make this rule mandatory for some or all
skills.  At the same time, some GMs may wish to make specialization
unavailable for some or all skills. 

Note that the "specialization rule" also helps to resolve several 
controversies that have flared up on the list.  First Aid can now be a 
specialization of Medical, Theology a specialization of Philosophy, and 
so on.

Another advantage of the specialization rule is that it allows seamless 
creation of new skills by simply making them specializations under 
existing skills.  There will be no need to re-invent a bunch of tables 
every time you want to add new skills to the character generation system.

Okay, enough with the blather, here's the skill list.  As always, I would 
like to get as much feedback as I can.  Let me know what y'all think!

(Also, let me know if this two-column format comes out readable).

SKILL LIST:

** Indicates a "new" skill that was not on MM's posted list.

# Indicates a skill which has been modified from MM's posted list.  i.e., 
the skill's name/scope has been changed, or it is now  part of a group of 
skills which represent what was a single skill on MM' list.


***WEAPON SKILLS (17)*************************

Archaic Ranged Weapons #	Artillery
Automatic Weapons #			
Blade, Short #			Blade, Long #
Club, Heavy #			Club, Light #
Energy Weapons **		Firearms #
Flail **
Gunnery				Heavy Weapons
Laser Weapons **		Sonic Weapons **
Neural Weapons **		Throw
Unarmed Combat#			Polearm #

Notes:
	- Weapon skills should be understood to include high-tech 
variants (vibroblades, monofilament flails, stun sticks, gauss guns, etc.).
	- Gun combat and Blade combat have been reorganized to eliminate 
the need for cascades.  In terms of character generation, there will be 
need for Skill Clusters like in MegaTraveller.
	- Fencing is a specialization of "Blade, Long".
	- Archery has been replaced with the broader "Archaic Ranged 
Weapons" so that it can cover slings and such as well.
	- Armorer is a specialization under Craftsman (or Repair?).
	- Brawling and various martial arts are specializations under 
Unarmed Combat.
	- Several weapon skills which were not included on MM's list have 
been added for completeness (lasers, energy weapons, neural weapons).


***MILITARY SKILLS (7)*************************

Battledress			Demolitions
Hostile Enviro. Combat#		Forward Observer
Leadership			Recruiting ** 
Tactics

	-Environment combat is now "Hostile Environment Combat", which is 
clearer and has a cool acronym (HEC).
	-Recruiting has been added.  
	-Combat engineer is a specialty under Design.
	-Camouflage is a specialty under stealth.


***ACADEMIC SKILLS (16)***********************

Archeology			Astronomy#
Biology 				
Chemistry			Economics **
History				Instruction
Linguistics			Philosophy
Physics				Planetology **
Political Science **		Psioncology
Psychology			Research
Sophontology #			


Notes:
	- Several new fields have been added, especially in the area of 
the social sciences.
	- Botany and Zoology are specialties under biology.
	- Planetolgy = "Geology", Sophontology = "Anthropology".
	- Theology is a specialization under philosophy.
	- Astrogation or Astrography can be spec's under Astronomy.


***CRIMINAL/POLICE SKILLS (10)******************

Bribery				Disguise				
Forensics			Forgery				
Gambling			Interrogation			
Intrusion			Investigation		
Stealth				Streetwise

Notes:
	-Fast Talk and Intimidation are specializations of Persuasion.
	-Pickpocket is a spec of Intrusion.


***TECHNICAL SKILLS (20)*********************

Aircraft			Communications
Computer			Craftsman
Designer ** 			Engineer
Farming **			Grav Craft 	
Ground Craft #			Hover Craft #
Navigation 			Robotic Ops. #
Photography **			Pilot 
Prospecting **			Repair #
Riding #			Sensor Ops.
Vacc Suit			Water Craft

Notes:
	- Vehicle skills have been re-organized somewhat.
	- Equestrian has been replaced by the more general "Riding".
	- Electronics, Mechanics, Gravitics and Robotics (in terms of
repair/maintenance) are specializations under Repair (or Designer if one
wants to create complex new items).  Designer is an engineer (in the 20th
century sense).
	- Ship's Boat is a specialization under Pilot.


***PROFESSIONAL SKILLS (15)********************

Acting#				Art#
Administration			Animal Care **
Bargain **			Broker
Dance #
Diplomacy 			Law
Medicine			Music #
Politics **			Steward
Trader				Writing #

Notes:
	-Performance has been replaced by separate skills (acting, art, 
dance, music, writing).
	-First Aid is a specialization under Medicine.
	-Animal care includes such things as training, husbandry, 
herding, etc.

***OTHER SKILLS (10)**************************

Athletics			Carousing
Jack-of-all-Trades		Survival
Language (pick one)		Observation **
Orienteering **			Persuasion **
Reconnaissance			Survey 		

Notes:
	-Each Language is a seperate skill (English, French).  
Specializations would be for specific dialects (Quebec French, Parisien 
French) or specific uses (reading, writing, speaking).
	-Orienteering covers navigation on world surfaces, while 
Navigation covers jump space and pilot cover real space.


Okay, that it from me.  Again, any and all (non-flame) feedback is 
appreciated.

Happy Travelling,
Charles.


<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>



------------------------------

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Traveller-digest           Saturday, 15 June 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 099

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: To Chris
         2. Horses on Independence Day 4  [was Re: Orbital kablooie, etc.]
         3. Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions
         4. THrowing rocks at Normandy
         5. Patrick O'Brian
         6. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #98
         7. Re: Background is the game
         8. Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters
         9. Re: Dropping rocks for fun & profit
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #91
        11. Re: Background is the Game
        12. Re: To Chris
        13. Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters
        14. Re: Patrick O'Brian

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 17:24:57 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: To Chris

On Fri, 14 Jun 1996, Stuart L. Dollar wrote:

> For those who weren't around when Marc Miller was at the helm, I think 
> his tremendous vision about developing a real, living breathing universe 
> was what took the game beyond the ordinary.  In the early GDW years, 
> the game had such a realistic feel to it both good and bad.  The game was 
> bigger than life.  I want that feeling back much more than I'm married to a 
> rules system.  That looks like it will happen.  I used to buy each adventure 
> & magazine, just to see what people were writing, what would happen 
> next.

I feel the same about Marc Miller, Stu.  One of the reasons I'm so 
excited about T4 is that Marc's back at the helm...and that is something 
I've never seen before.  What I mean is, every time I've ever liked a 
product or company (Apple, Atari, GDW), the person(s) who provided the 
vision either gets pushed out or leaves of his own accord, thereafter the 
products become less and less like the original stuff that attracted me 
and caused me to make the purchase(s).  Never before (in the case of the 
things I like) has the visionary returned to the product.  I am so happy 
it turned out different this time!

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "David Reed" <nacht@neosoft.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 19:01:37 -0500
Subject: Horses on Independence Day 4  [was Re: Orbital kablooie, etc.]

- ----------
> At 08:01 AM 6/14/96 -0400, Roderick Elliott wrote:
[snippers]
> Second, a personal anecdote:  I was chosen to be pointman for a patrol one
> night, and issued a set of AN-PVS/5 Goggles (Light Intensifier Goggles).
[snip]
> I had walked into the muzzle of a 105mm main gun.  I never saw the damn
> thing, and I was 3 METERS from it.  The crew inside were amused, they had
> seen us from 600m with the thermographic sights.
> 
> Never assume that high technology will help.

I KNEW I recognized you!  You're one of my many characters
reincarnated!  ;-)  I'll bet that was a Kodak moment!

Seriously, I've always thought that the failure rules for tech were either too
non-existant or too favorable for the equipment (a la T2k)...

[snip]
> You make it too damn difficult to hold ground.  Make him burn his supplies
> faster than he hoped.  Make sure that where ever he lands, partisans spring
> up.  Take every oppurtunity to inflict damage.  Wait him out.

Pop Quiz:  Anybody else out there in the US market seen the previews for the
new flick "ID4"?  'Independence Day 4'?  The previews don't really show much
of ortillery, but the White House gets blasted, which is cool...  2 July the aliens
show up, 3 July they blow up every target of opportunity, 4 July the directors
think that we'll be fighting back...  

Anybody disagree?  I know that Mr. Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net> does:

[snip]
> > topic: how does one successfuly repel an invading force with orbital
> > superiority?
> 
> One doesn't. 
> 
> If they've got orbital superiority, there's *no* way folks on the
> ground are going to take that away. Consider Iraq. They lost air
> superiority and couldn't get it back. 

If this is the case, how the hell do we win?  Sounds like T2k all over...  ;-(
 
[snip]
> And guerillas who don't need to worry about fuel and power are going to
> be *real* hard to beat.

I guess we in the cowboy state are all set then, eh?  Horses anyone?  ;-P

There has been lots of SF about indigenous species holding off the EWGR
(Evil White Guys Reincarnated) for quite a long time with very low tech
weapons using, one would suppose, only home field advantage and great
esprit.  Now, if they have any kind of other advantages it makes it even
harder, i.e. limited teleportation (Drake's _At Any Price_).

Does anybody have players out there who enjoy being at the bottom of
the food chain/gravity well to start with?  I sure don't.  My TNE players 
never forgave me for introducing them with a rewrite of "Idol Dreams"...  
(The few plasma rifles they had to start off with were empty by the time 
they reached the warehouse district...)
- -- 
Dave  <nacht@neosoft.com>  public key available

Zen
"If you wish to find the unclouded truth,
do not concern yourself with right and wrong.
Conflicts with right and wrong are a sickness of the mind."


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 20:38:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Orbital bombardment and planetary Invasions

On Fri, 14 Jun 1996, David J. Golden wrote:

> >   Three words: Deep Meson Sites. Undestroyable from orbit, though you can
> >blind their sensors *if* you can find them. (Personally, I favour neutrino
> >detectors as a primary targetting sensor - no emissions to lock onto, and
> >are great for targetting fusion-powered starships)
> 
>         And just as handy for targetting fusion-powered Deep Meson Sites...
> even if you separate them, your DMS is worthless once I nail the power source...

   Ahhh, but on planets we have the luxury of geothermal power sources...

   =8->

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 08:39:28 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: THrowing rocks at Normandy

        
        Derek Stanley wrote:
>>
>>        Rocks, on the other hand are free.
>
>Ya but if all they did was throw rocks at Normandy the second world war
>would still be going on.  8)  

        Wrong.  Normandy would be buried under a layer approximately 1.4 km
deep of rocks and rough gravel :).


>Someone's got the make the sacrifice, and
>you'll never completely supress the planets air defence.  I mean unless you
>kill every living creature and you're still hoping they don't have a meson gun.
>
>DS

        Well, as I've said, I'll concede that _complete_ suppression may be
impossible.  I still think that _trying_ to do so before dropping in the PBI
is going to be the route a prudent commander takes.
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <gpvll@hk.super.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 09:04:11 +0800 (HKT)
Subject: Patrick O'Brian

        Bruce Mackintosh wrote:

>
>Hear him, hear him! It's Patrick O'Brian, and they are *wonderful* books.
>Everyone in the entire world should go out and read them all, 
>immediately.  

        Yes!  YES!  Patrick O'Brian is, in my opinion, a near-deity.  He
makes C.S. Forester look like a talentless hack.  It's too bad he writes in
a "genre", because otherwise, he'd be getting oodles of recognition.  

>Ever since I read them all I've been thinking what a 
>wonderful campaign you could build around a small naval warship in a
>suitable setting (war in a low-force-density/low population density
>region, so there's usually only one or two small ships per setting.) 
>Napoleonic naval warfare and society doesn't map one-to-one to SF
>(no matter how hard David Feintuch and David Weber try), but it's a good
>source of atmosphere. 
>

        I'd agree; I think that the O'Brian books are about as good as
you're going to get as far as portrayals of the sort of social dynamics that
you'd find on board of ship of that period, and that that might provide some
inspiration for an SF rpg, but aside from that I'd stick to SF sources...
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
   *+-----------------------------------------------+*


------------------------------

From: "Shadowcat" <kwalsh@cube.ice.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 20:44:03 +0000
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #98

I managed to lose the QSDS post. could somebody either repost it or 
E-mail it to me.

Thanks
Kevin Walsh

------------------------------

From: matth <matth@ritz.mordor.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 23:32:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Background is the game

> 
> From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
> Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 03:30:48 -0500
> Subject: Background is the Game
> 
> In response to how T4 should not have Background material...
> 
> Traveller is inextricably intertwined with the Imperium.  Does this mean

Classic Traveller was not intertwined with the Imperium. 

> that you have to set your games there?  No!  However, I have never thought

Ah but the problem with the game system embedded with the rules is that
you have to do alot of work to extract it. 


Traveller has more structure and more defined things than GURPS does. Its
alot easier to design a game in Traveller since certain technology 
decisions have already been made by the game. I think that the Imperium
background is interesting, but I don't want it shoved down my throat so 
I can play a game. 

Matthew 

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 17:13:39 PST
Subject: Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters

Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> writes:

> On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> > Also, what happens if a kinetic kill projectile hits your ship? If the
> > zeta field affects it, it won't hit as hard. If the field *doesn't*
> > affect it, then it's possible that your ship will "bounce" out of the
> > way.
> 
>   Another violation of the laws of conservation. E.E. Smiths reversion of
> inertial "rest velocity" works better.

It'd be *fun* sticking Bergenholms into Traveller, even if you didn't
allow them to reach speeds above c. :-)

> > Thruster plates are the problem, but *only* as long as they are allowed
> > to violate conservation of energy. If you fix that, then they aren't a
> > problem. Of course,, this will piss off the folks who like them since
> > it turns out that a "reactionless" drive that obeys conservation of
> > energy is *less* efficient than your typical reaction drive.
> 
>    Out of curiousity, why do you believe this? A reactionless drive like
> thruster plates would not require reaction mass - this creates efficiency
> bonuses in it's own right, even when there are problems with energy
> consumption.

This was argued out in sci.space and the rec.arts.sf groups *years*
back. The problem is this:

Your ship is at rest. KE=0

Your "reactionless" drive accelerates it to 1 km/s. Let's call your
new KE 1, just to make things simple.

Okay, now you want to get to 2 km/s. That makes your KE *4*. And thus,
if conservation of energy holds, it took three times as much power to
get to 2 km/s as it took to get to 1. To get to 10 km/s will take 99
times the energy it took to get to 1 km/s.

See the problem? Hell, I bet the power plant fuel required to get to 30
km/s is bigger than the maneuver fuel required to get to 30 km/s with a
reaction drive! 

Another problem is that you have to measure your velocity (and thus
momentum and KE) *relative* to some outside object. And the figures
relative to an object with a different vector will be different. 

So any "reactionless" drive is going to have to be figuring the energy
consumption relative to *some* body. And that means that for all
practical purposes you are "pushing" (or pulling!) on that object.

The reason a reaction drive is so much more efficient is that it is
pushing on it's *exhaust*, and therefore you measure the KE change
relative to *that*. 

There are two "reactionless" drives we've come up with that don't have
the problem. One is the negamatter drive. That's where you have a large
chunk of *dense* negamatter (matter with *negative* mass) and move by
varying the distance between it and a chunk of normal matter. This
works because both the inertial *and* gravitational mass are negative.
So there is a repulsive force between the two chunks, but the negative
matter "feels" that as an *attractive* force. Conservation works
because the negamatter has *negative* momentum and KE.

The other sort of "reactionless" drive can work in a bunch of
differenty ways, but they all amount to changing your *position*
without changing your *velocity*. 

For example, create an artificial gravity well 100 meters in front of
the ship. The ship and the gravity well fall *towards* each other. Net
KE and momentum change: 0. You "uncreate" the well before it gets too
close. But in doing so, you'll hasve to absorb it's KE and momentum. So
you resume your orginal momentum and KE. But you are now in a different
position. There are *many* different variations on this theme. I
suggest calling all of them "bootstrap" drives (as in pulling yourself
up by your boot straps).

> One major bonus I would see with reactionless thrusters in
> Military craft would be the lack of "G" on the crew - provided you are
> willing to pay for the thrusters and the power to run them, you could
> generate a *heck* of a lot of EM.

All you need for this is a "field" drive. Say a reaction drive that
uses gravity to push the ship one way while pushing the reaction mass
the other way. This amounts to being the Traveller "thrust
compensators" anyway.


Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 19:01:56 PST
Subject: Re: Dropping rocks for fun & profit

Bri <bri@teleport.com> writes:

>   Hmmm, one more question...
> 
>   When this rock hits, would it like water(the plasma from the rock and
> surounding material) behaive like a droplet into water or would it be a
> half sphere?

It'd try to form a sphere, but how well it succeeds depends on how much
energy there was in the impact, and how strong what it hit was. You
usually will wind up with the fireball being bigger than the crater.
And if someone was tossing asteroids around, it's possible to get a
fireball that's too big to rise! (ie the radius of the fireball is
greater than the distance from the ground to the point where you can
forget about the atmosphere)

 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com	<--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com	<--last resort

------------------------------

From: jmg141@psu.edu (John M. Gardner)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 00:40:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #91

> All this discussion has me curious...
 >What would the impact of one of these KKMs look like(how would you
>describe it) and would it be a blast-type weapon or a narrorw impact(?)..

>  A rod of depleted uranium, anywhere from 1 to 5 m long, and about
>1/10 to 1/6 as wide. Fins on the back, simple seeker head on the front. No
>"blast" as in explosives ... the kinetic energy of the impact will do quite
>enough, thank you.

Sorry, this is home turf and I have to open my mouth (you can help me
extricate my foot later :>) )
Modern  tank weaponry is comparable to a dumb version of what you are
describing here.  The prefered anti armor round in the US Army is the
APDSFSDU round, (yes, FF&S had the nomenclature correct.).  And just for the
record, the M-833 series ammo used on the 105mm main gun weighs in at
roughly 5 kilos and has a muzzle V of 1635 meters per second (nominal).  I
may be a little off on the mass though (I haven't loaded one of the beasties
in over 5 years).  The 120mm gun weighs more, moves faster (~1825 meters per
second) and hits much harder.

When one of these monsters strike, they punch a hole in the hull / armor,
enter the inside of the vehicle and often exit the other side in the same
manner.  All of the material that was once where the hole now is becomes
various sized mini projectiles bouncing around the inside of the target
(mincing up the crew, ammo, fuel, electronics, etc.)  The effects can be
quite devastating.  There are all sorts of proverbial stories told to
newbies about enemy crews getting sucked out of the exit hole (about 3-4 cm
in diameter) from the overpressure when a closed hatch vehicle is hit.  I've
never seen this happen though and can't comment on the likelyhood (other
than to say "yea, right".)  

BTW, a tip of the hat to the folks who wrote FF&S.  You guys did some
outstanding research on the CPR penetrator stuff.  When I first saw it, I
thought I was back at Fort Knox taking AIT all over again.  Good job.


>A common thread in the various ongoing discussion of orbital bombardment, 
>jump troops, and so forth has been the question:  Why not just drop a 
>Great Big Rock (tm) and be done with it?  As someone pointed out, being 
>at the top of a gravity well gives the attacker a huge potential (pardon 
>the pun) advantage; he can create havoc on the planetary surface simply 
>by deorbiting random hunks o'junk in appropriate places.

There is also an old naval addage that goes "the shore battery always has
the advantage over a ship, because it can not be sunk."  Big rocks are great
for operation "Crush and Burn", but those meson gun deep mounts can really
ruin you day.  (just ask one of my players!)  Still, there is nothing to
prevent some sick minded group from hitching a 5000 ton(d) jump shuttle to a
large fast moving rock and jumping it in at JUST the right angle . . .

- ----John
*     "a chicken is just an egg's way of making new eggs."
                          --- unknown

*      "any society which is willing to surrender essential liberties to
gain security shall likely have neither"
                        --- Benjamin Franklin


------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@worldweb.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 00:45:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Background is the Game

At 03:30 AM 6/12/96 -0500, you wrote:
>...
>Traveller is inextricably intertwined with the Imperium.  Does this mean
>that you have to set your games there?  No!  However, I have never thought
>that any incarnation of Traveller was the best RPG on the market from a
>rule standpoint (maybe TNE was OK, but it too had problems).  However,
>what has kept me interested in Traveller is the fact that the 11,000
>worlds of the Imperium even existed.  

Our local group also plays FRP and Runequest is a standard with us.  We so
liked the Imperium but so disliked CT back in the early '80s that we played
'Runes in Space', taking quite a bit from 'Other Suns' (FGU) and ALL of the
backround from CT...  Until MT, this was my exposure to Traveller...

- - Bill  PS - I hope my cutting of your orig. msg isn't too haphazard...



------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@worldweb.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 00:48:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: To Chris

Good.  The real point is to make sure T4 succeeds - both by list input and
through the good offices of IG and FFE - NOT to see what roadkill we can
produce enroute. - Bill

At 09:58 AM 6/14/96 +0000, you wrote:
>Chris grow up son, the loss of anyone from this newsgroup should be 
>greated with saddness, because we as a group has failed to 
>accommodate all the aspects of this game we love. We can do without 
>your petty gloating, how old are you? I for one am sorry that 
>Phil took this approach, but it was his choice and I hope he 
>reconciders.
>So please lets all try to get things in perspective here, all we want 
>is the goal posts to stop moving as various publishers try to cash 
>in.
>I really hope T4 will be a good product, though I fear it'll be 
>something less.
>Bob
>


------------------------------

From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 00:58:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Zeta Field & Thrusters

On Fri, 14 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> Larry Hadley <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> writes:
> 
> > On Thu, 13 Jun 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> It'd be *fun* sticking Bergenholms into Traveller, even if you didn't
> allow them to reach speeds above c. :-)

  It's *real* simple to justify not reaching c with inertial dampers:
drag. Yes, I said DRAG. Interstellar space is NOT empty. In fact, even
(especially!) ordinary reaction drives will be limited to much less than c
because the drag of interstellar gases as one approaches c is VERY
significant and the exhaust velocity of your drive then becomes critical
in determining howclose you can get to c. Of course, mass dilation
complicates this as well.

> >    Out of curiousity, why do you believe this? A reactionless drive like
> > thruster plates would not require reaction mass - this creates efficiency
> > bonuses in it's own right, even when there are problems with energy
> > consumption.
> 
> This was argued out in sci.space and the rec.arts.sf groups *years*
> back. The problem is this:
> 
> Your ship is at rest. KE=0
> 
> Your "reactionless" drive accelerates it to 1 km/s. Let's call your
> new KE 1, just to make things simple.
> 
> Okay, now you want to get to 2 km/s. That makes your KE *4*. And thus,
> if conservation of energy holds, it took three times as much power to
> get to 2 km/s as it took to get to 1. To get to 10 km/s will take 99
> times the energy it took to get to 1 km/s.
> 
> See the problem? Hell, I bet the power plant fuel required to get to 30
> km/s is bigger than the maneuver fuel required to get to 30 km/s with a
> reaction drive! 

   This is _real_ easy to sidestep, in fact you mention the key later in
your post: relativity. How do you measure KE? *Always* with respect to
some frame of reference. The ship might have KE=1 with respect to a given
planet, and KE=400 with respect to another. How do you reconcile the
differences given the *exponential* nature of the KE equation? (Think
about this for a minute, it'll come to you) The energy equations - even
with a reaction drive - will give you strange answers.

   The other question is (obviously) how do you justify the reactionless
drive? If it's "pushing" against a planet, or some other body (perhaps the
"fabric" of space itself?) then you have a thorny dilemma...how _do_ you
explain the energy conservation problem? OTOH, if you use one of the
"bootstrap" drives you mention, this point is moot because the frame of
reference has no more validity than it does with a reaction drive. IMO,
this is the *only* kind of reactionless drive that *can* possibly work
anyways....

   My personal favourite is the "Trans-gravitic Interphased Subspace
Anomaly" drive. (TISA for short) I got that name from Space Opera and it's
stuck with me ever since I read it. It's the artificial-gravity-well idea
you mention. I've loved that idea since I read _The Gentle Giants of
Ganymede_ by Hogan.

> The reason a reaction drive is so much more efficient is that it is
> pushing on it's *exhaust*, and therefore you measure the KE change
> relative to *that*. 

  Yep. So why can't a reactionless drive be pushing on *itself*? <g>
We *are* talking about a reaction*less* drive! I contend that all you
would have to pay for is the *force* you exert on the ship, same as any
reaction drive. *Nothing* else makes any sense at all, as you've surely
figured out judging from your post.

> For example, create an artificial gravity well 100 meters in front of
> the ship. The ship and the gravity well fall *towards* each other. Net
> KE and momentum change: 0. You "uncreate" the well before it gets too
> close. But in doing so, you'll hasve to absorb it's KE and momentum. So
> you resume your orginal momentum and KE. But you are now in a different
> position. There are *many* different variations on this theme. I
> suggest calling all of them "bootstrap" drives (as in pulling yourself
> up by your boot straps).

   [warm fuzzy feeling]

> > One major bonus I would see with reactionless thrusters in
> > Military craft would be the lack of "G" on the crew - provided you are
> > willing to pay for the thrusters and the power to run them, you could
> > generate a *heck* of a lot of EM.
> 
> All you need for this is a "field" drive. Say a reaction drive that
> uses gravity to push the ship one way while pushing the reaction mass
> the other way. This amounts to being the Traveller "thrust
> compensators" anyway.

   There is another way to compensate G forces, and we almost have the
tech to do this today - massive plates ahead of the crew cabin. Mount the
cabin on a stalk behind the plate with the stalk terminating in the drive
you happen to be using. The plate is massive enough to generate
gravitational forces in it's own right, to nullify G just slide the cabin
towards the plate (or away) as thrust changes. Of course, to be of any use
power has to be damn close to free to make this practical. 

- -- DLH "Warhammer"                           lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca
   Visit my home-page, NEW stuff! Traveller and gaming info...
   http://www.knet.flemingc.on.ca/~lhadley/Profile.html

Microsoft Network is prohibited from redistributing this work in any form,
in whole or in part. Copyright, Larry Hadley, 1996. Please send notices of 
violation to lhadley@knet.flemingc.on.ca and Postmaster@microsoft.com



------------------------------

From: Bill Rutherford <worj@worldweb.net>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 1996 01:19:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Patrick O'Brian

Sort of like the crew of the starship Enterprise, except that the crew's
never sure just WHAT the government means by their last set of orders, the
food REALLY stinks, and (like the books) almost everybody IS out to get the
ship!  So........   When do we expect to see a T4 adventure based on Lucky
Jack's adventures? - Bill

At 09:04 AM 6/15/96 +0800, you wrote:
>
>        Bruce Mackintosh wrote:
>
>>
>>Hear him, hear him! It's Patrick O'Brian, and they are *wonderful* books.
>>Everyone in the entire world should go out and read them all, 
>>immediately.  
>
>        Yes!  YES!  Patrick O'Brian is, in my opinion, a near-deity.  He
>makes C.S. Forester look like a talentless hack.  It's too bad he writes in
>a "genre", because otherwise, he'd be getting oodles of recognition.  
>
>>Ever since I read them all I've been thinking what a 
>>wonderful campaign you could build around a small naval warship in a
>>suitable setting (war in a low-force-density/low population density
>>region, so there's usually only one or two small ships per setting.) 
>>Napoleonic naval warfare and society doesn't map one-to-one to SF
>>(no matter how hard David Feintuch and David Weber try), but it's a good
>>source of atmosphere. 
>>
>
>        I'd agree; I think that the O'Brian books are about as good as
>you're going to get as far as portrayals of the sort of social dynamics that
>you'd find on board of ship of that period, and that that might provide some
>inspiration for an SF rpg, but aside from that I'd stick to SF sources...
>   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
>   | Roderick Darroch Elliott     gpvll@hk.super.net |
>   *+-----------------------------------------------+*
>
>


------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #99
*********************************

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