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Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #212
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Traveller-digest            Friday, 5 July 1996        Volume 1996 : Number 212

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Death of Literacy
         2. Re: TNE without the Virus
         3. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #190
         4. Jesse Helms and Scott Kalkwarf
         5. Re: Death of Literacy
         6. Re: ID4
         7. Re: Things on MY monitor
         8. Re: Miscellaneous thoughts
         9. Re: Death of Literacy
        10. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #210
        11. Re: Death of Literacy
        12. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #210
        13. Ships of the Line (semi-long)
        14. Campaign Cartographer
        15. Re: Deckplans
        16. Temporary Signoff
        17. Re: Disposable PCs
        18. Re: Foss Art: Two Thoughts
        19. Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #201

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 13:23:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Death of Literacy

On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Wes Payne wrote:
>
> [Wes' explanation of why literacy was lost so quickly - snipped]
>
> > Therefore, literacy would be much harder to maintain in the aftermath of
> > a sudden, watershed event like the Collapse than it would have been
> > during an interregnum such as the Long Night.
	      ^^^^^^^^^^^
	      A what??

> Not only that, but it would be a hell of a job to bring literacy back.
> You'd have to import instructors from any worlds that had retained their
> literacy.  The RC has its work cut out for it.

So they fire up an interstellar Peace Corps.  How many people could an
instructor reasonably teach to read/write in a year (and were not talking
college level here)?  Also, in 70 years you would probably end up with a
written language that had regressed to symbology...how much effort would
it take to bring that back on line?

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
   "And on the eighth day, the Army Corps of Engineers changed everything."


------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 13:24:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: TNE without the Virus

On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Shalom Zaidfeld wrote:

>
> On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Matthew Harelick wrote:
>
> > Is it possible to play TNE and not use the virus? What I mean by possible is
> > is it possible to use the system without too many modifications?
>
> do you mean rules-wise or background-wise?
>

Background-wise would be a chore.

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
   "And on the eighth day, the Army Corps of Engineers changed everything."


------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 20:36:07 GMT
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #190

On Wed, 03 Jul 96 17:57:37 PST, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> As I recall, someone figured out that the Finnish 20 mm Lahti, and the
> Soviet 17mm ancestor of the SKS could both nail even troops in
> Battledress. 

What about the Steyr AMR (Anti-Material Rifle)?  Weapon is 2m long, 20kg
empty, 1.2m barrel, 1,500m/sec muzzle velocity.  Ammunition is 15mm DS
5.5mm 36g flechette.  Effective range 1,500-2,000m.  40mm penetration at
800m!  Anybody willing to convert this little baby?

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 21:15:22 GMT
Subject: Jesse Helms and Scott Kalkwarf

On Thu, 04 Jul 1996 11:04:59 -0500, Scott L. Kalkwarf wrote:

> > At 08:01 PM 7/2/96 -0400, James Lindsay wrote:

... A BUNCH OF STUFF I NEVER SAID !!!
 
> What the heck is this doing on the Traveller Mail?
> 
> Mr. Lindsay, why are you so upset at the tobacco Industry to begin with. You smoked on 

For crying out loud!  Get your facts straight before opening your mouth and
flaming someone!  I never said any of this!  I simply asked Wes Payne about
his signature line a few days ago!  The only thing I did say was (and I
*quote*):

> BTW, who is "Jesse Helms"?  Any relation to Uncle Jesse from Dukes of
> Hazzard?

Check out the "Uncle Jesse" thread if you want to find out who wrote this
and how it esclated to your necessary response.  I deleted my copy
yesterday.  Maybe if you stopped replying to everything via "Re:
Traveller-digestV1996 #206" you would now better and be able to more
accurately aim your remarks.  If your going to flame someone, go back to
the source and get your facts straight before you make a fool of yourself.

Now perhaps you will retract the damaging things YOU said about myself so
that this stops here and now....


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:06:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Death of Literacy

On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

[stuff about the problems of literacy in the wake of the collapse snipped]

> You know if they just dropped pamphlet and started a letter writing 
> campaign they could clear this whole problem up immediatly.  

Good idea!  And another one:  Start a chain letter!  That way, the 
populace would HAVE to learn how to read and write, or suffer the 
consequences of "breaking the chain!" :)

- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:08:06 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: ID4

> >THIS MOVIE CONTAINS THINGS APPROPRIATE FOR TML DISCUSSION.  PLEASE 
> >CONSIDER OTHERS BEFORE POSTING ANYTHING (INCLUDING SPOILERS IN SUBJECT 
> >HEADERS).

I just saw Independence Day, and it does indeed contain elements VERY 
appropriate for TML discussion.  Can't talk about it yet, though, or it'd 
ruin it for others (sigh).  Hope everyone sees it soon! :)


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 15:16:00 -0700
Subject: Re: Things on MY monitor

Hmmm...  on top, the castle from our wedding cake, and a Tigger figure.  A
Welsh flag taped to the front of the monitor.

Weirdest things you find on this list.

+----------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry     dberry@hooked.net |
|  Professional Driver - Traveller Guru  |
|   This is the thread that never ends,  |
|   It just goes on and on, my friend.   |
|  Some people started flaming it, not   |
|          knowing what it was,          |
|     And they'll continue flaming it    |
|         forever, just because          |
| This is the thread that never ends.... |
+----------------------------------------+


------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:23:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Miscellaneous thoughts

On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:

> > And I suppose I won't be invited to hide behind your desk, either, will
> > I? :)
> 
> Oh no.  Its a big desk.  The more the merrier.  8)

Thanks! :)


> With the decline in medical technoligies, the emergence of harsh diseases 
> like the plague etc.  I'd imagine that a huge chunk of the population 
> died in the years immediatly after the collapse.  50-60% would not be 
> unlikely.

That's sort of stadard fare in the after-the-big-whoops books I've read.  
So, that wasn't mentioned in TNE?  Interesting.

> I wonder if during the collapse it might be better do begin character 
> generation at 14 instead of 18...or is it 17?  Can't remember.  This 
> would reflect the younger age at which people would become responsible 
> for their own well being.  Sure when you've got toaster ovens and 
> microwaves it's easy to keep your kids around till their 28 but when 
> survival means getting everyone into the feilds as early as possible and 
> making them self sufficient.  You can get my point.

Hmm.  Maybe the parents won't let the kids get away because they're 
needed on the farm.  Perhaps, adventurer types would be extremely rare...


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

From: Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 17:19:26 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Death of Literacy

On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Joe Walsh wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:
>
> [stuff about the problems of literacy in the wake of the collapse snipped]
>
> > You know if they just dropped pamphlet and started a letter writing
> > campaign they could clear this whole problem up immediatly.
>
> Good idea!  And another one:  Start a chain letter!  That way, the
> populace would HAVE to learn how to read and write, or suffer the
> consequences of "breaking the chain!" :)

speaking of chain letters:

	(Insert endless list of forward headers here, and don't delete them
for some reason)

	This message is not good news.  It contains no stupid ASCII "art" to
complement it.  It is true.  If you don't forward this to 25 people
in the next 2 hours, your mother will fall deathly ill.  She will
linger a few, agonizing months, and then die. The same will happen to
your father after your mother's death.  Then your siblings will be
stabbed by bandits dressed a mideval knights and will bleed to death
over the course of hours.  The hospital bills for your parents will
fall to you to pay.  Also, it will be discovered that your parents
have not paid income taxes for their entire lives, and you will be
accuesed and convicted of stabbing your siblings.  After you get out
of jail 25 years from today, you will have to pay the staggering
debt and interest which has accrued on your parents' hospital stays.
You will be unable to finish your college education and will have to
work at a minimum-wage job.  Because of the debt, you will be forced
to be celibate since you can't afford condoms.  The day after you
have paid it off completely, you will win the Publisher's
Clearinghouse sweepstakes and meet the most beautiful, charming, and
intellegent 18-year old who will swear to love you for the rest of
your life.  The next day you will be taken into a bizzare time vortex
and crucified next to Jesus.  You will promptly decend into hell and
live out eternity in unimaginable pain.
	This is true.  This message has traveled around the world 3245 times
in the past 46 hours, and already half a billion mothers are ill.  Be
sure to send it on.


Feel free to flame me for this flagrant waste of bandwidth, but please do
it off the list.  We wouldn't want to detract any more bandwidth from
discussions of rabid feudal technocratic rock dropping viruses.

- -----

        "Life is a disease of matter." --- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
        Charles Pratt tminus@u.washington.edu -- when in doubt, sail.
   "And on the eighth day, the Army Corps of Engineers changed everything."


------------------------------

From: Paragon369@aol.com
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 20:28:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #210

In a message dated 96-07-04 14:19:49 EDT, you write:

<< > > Jesse Helms would strip the basic protection of law from homosexuals.
 He
 > > believes that the United States is a Christian nation, and that no other
 > > religion has any place here.  He advocated a nuclear first strike
against
 > > the Soviet Union.  He comes from a tobacco state, and has been the
leader in
 > > keeping this cancer causing killer on store shelves. >>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- -------------------------------------------
Look, I know Traveller is going to cover the beginning of Earth going into
space... but do we really have to cover petty planetary squabbles too??


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 20:36:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Death of Literacy

Those who pass chain letters on, other than being annoying twits, will have 
relativistic virus laden rocks thrown at them, orginally chunks of a 
planet that was a feudal technocracy blown to bits by a massive fighter 
fleet that somehow defeated its battle riders and SDB's.

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: Tom Ellis <tellis@telerama.lm.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 20:42:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #210

On Thu, 4 Jul 1996 Paragon369@aol.com wrote:
> Look, I know Traveller is going to cover the beginning of Earth going into
> space... but do we really have to cover petty planetary squabbles too??
> 
> 

ROTFLMAO

_______________________________________________________
Tom Ellis
tellis@telerama.lm.com
http://www.lm.com/~tellis/

"No! Do, or do not.  There is not try." Yoda
_______________________________________________________ 


------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 03:21:34 -0500
Subject: Ships of the Line (semi-long)

BTW:  All that follows is IIRC, I cannot find my reference book...

The term "Ship of the Line" (from Napoleonic British Naval History) was
given to any rated ship (1-6) that would enter the line of battle and sail
against the enemy line.  The rating system was used to determine the pay
of the captain and officers of the ship, and was based on the number of
guns a ship carried.  

First Raters were three or four deckers with 90-100+ guns.  They were the
battleships and flagships for the fleet.  From which Nelson and others
directed the overall battle.  

Second Raters were also three deckers, but with 75-90 guns.  They were
also "ships of the line", and were the mainstay of the English, French,
Spanish, and Dutch Navies.  They would often head up task force in foreign
waters.

Third Raters were 64+ guns two or three decks, and were the smallest of
the "ships of the line".  

Fourth Raters were the cruisers.  Not large enough to withstand the
punishment of a third rater, they mounted guns that could hurt them.  They
often operated in foreign waters, and headed up groups of frigates.  They
usually mounted about 50 guns about half and half 24 and 32 pounders.

Fifth Raters were frigates, and were used for commerce raiding.  They
carried about 30-40 guns, some as large as 24 pounders.

Sixth Raters were the smallest ships in the British Navy.  They were often
sloops, and sometimes were two masters instead of three.  They were used
for coastal defence and blockades.  They usually had about 30 guns in the
12 pounder range.

OK, now all of this is interesting to ME, but how can you relate to
Traveller.  In Traveller ships fall into 5 basic categories.

1 Ships of the Line (BBs, and CH), 2 Carriers, 3 Cruisers (CA/CL, and
variants), 4 Escorts, 5 Auxiliaries

I do not include any non-combat vessel in this breakdown.  The Ships of
the Line are supposed to for just that (the Line of the Battle), and fight
the best the Enemy has to offer.  They have to be able to destroy another
Ship of the Line, and take the punishment dealt out by one.  Cruisers can
enter the line of the battle, but even though they can deliver the
punishment of a BB, they cannot take it.  (BTW) I would put Battle Riders
in this class also.  Cruisers are more effective fighting the other sides
cruisers, and conducting commerce raiding, and fighting Escorts and
Auxiliaries.  The Escorts and Auxiliaries are there to show the flag, and
prey on and defend Merchantmen from commerce raiders and corsairs.  Their
other function is to protect the capital ships from smaller ships
(fighters/PT boats/etc.)  To this end, Ships of the Line, and Cruisers
will mount Spinal Weapons, as these are the weapons most likely to hurt
other ships of the line.  Escorts and Auxiliaries will mostly mount
smaller turret style weapons to fight off these smaller vessels.  Even a
fighter mounting a laser should be able to handle a Far Trader or such as
it will be able to pound on it from outside its sensor range.

BTW Escorts would be in the 3Kton to 10Kton range, and auxiliaries in the
100-2000 ton range.  (e.g.) Close Escorts, Patrol Cruisers, etc.

Lastly the reason ships of the line need to be protected from smaller
ships is that even though the primary weapons of these ships usually
cannot harm a capital ship, they can carry special ordnance that could
harm them.

DCB
- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: "David C.. Broussard" <broussa@connecti.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Jul 1996 03:40:52 -0500
Subject: Campaign Cartographer

I bought it from my local game store (who can order it for you and ship it
to you also).  It is rather expensive ($69.00), however a new Windows
Version will be coming out soon.  I have a link to their web page on my
Traveller Page
DCB
- -- 
David C. Broussard (broussa@connecti.com)  
Home page: http://www.connecti.com/~broussa/
- -----------------------------------------------------------------
The opinions represented herein are the sole responsibility of
the proclaimer, and should not be interpreted as dogma, doctrine
philosophy, or anything else other than blabber.  However, if you
REALLY like it, then gimme a dollar!
- -----------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 23:55:17 -0600
Subject: Re: Deckplans

At 04:15 pm 7/3/96 PST, you wrote:
>eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch) writes:
>
>> FP is a vector based program, and its native format is propriatary,
>> but it will export to EPS (encapsulated postscript) and DXF (data
>> exchange format). 
>> 
>> My questions has to do with EPS and DXF.  I'm really not familar with
>> either format, what commonly available programs can display them? 
>
>EPS is Encapulsated PostScript. And I have yet to see anything cheap
>that will convert *from* EPS to another format. You should be able to
>view EPS files with GhostScript, but I don't know where to get a copy.
>
>DXF is a new one for me. Never heard of it.

        Most programs I use on Windows can read EPS; once you've got it in
as a picture, converting it should be relatively easy.
        DXF is Drawing Exchange Format ... a standardized format for
exchanging vector and CAD-type files. Again, there's decent support under
Windows at least for using this as a standard.
- --________________________________________________________________
	I'm temporarily offline. To avoid mailbox overflow, I'm
dropping my mailing lists. Please CC: me personally on any reply 
to this message. Thanks!


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Thu, 04 Jul 1996 23:55:27 -0600
Subject: Temporary Signoff

        I'm going to be temporarily losing access for about a week. To avoid
my mailbox overflowing, I'm going to drop the mailing lists. If you need me
to see something, please email a copy directly to my account. I'll be back
online soon.
- --________________________________________________________________
	I'm temporarily offline. To avoid mailbox overflow, I'm
dropping my mailing lists. Please CC: me personally on any reply 
to this message. Thanks!

------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 00:05:13 -0700
Subject: Re: Disposable PCs

Charles Pratt wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 3 Jul 1996, Leonard Erickson wrote:
> 
> > Charles Pratt <tminus@u.washington.edu> writes:
> >
> > > (BTW, this is coming from a guy who has the complete first series of
> > > StarBlazers)
> >
> > "We're under attack by *what*?!?"
> >
> > "It looks like the Yamato, sir"
> >
> > "But we're in outer space!"
> 
> "Fire the Wave-motion gun!"  Which has got to be, what, a huge N-PAW
> spinal mount?

Possibly the largest PAW ever built.  But nice effect though, everytime 
they warmed that puppy up you knew there was some serious butt kicking to 
be delt with.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 00:10:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Foss Art: Two Thoughts

Charles Pratt wrote:

>are numbers.  Instead of saying, "you estimate the ship at (big number)
>tons displacement", I would rather be able to say, "take a look at this
>picture.  This is you in your scout ship, and THIS is the thing with 
>which you wish to tangle."  It might just prolong character life (I play 
>with some real low watt bulbs now and again).

"Are we going to allow those lousy Impies in their 1,000,000 ton 
Dreadnaught to intimidate us in our 200 ton far-trader?!?"

"SIR NO SIR!!"

"Then warm up the manouver drive's Mister Smee!  Ramming Speed!"

I think I've GM'd these same players.  Although it takes a certian amount 
of moxie to try something like this, it also takes a certian lack of 
brains.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

From: Derek Stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
Date: Fri, 05 Jul 1996 00:03:12 -0700
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1996 #201

Larry Hadley wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 4 Jul 1996, Derek Stanley wrote:
>>I like this idea.  I like it alot.  The only thing is it relys on human
>>input trying to "crack Dulinor's Code." It's probably more likely and I
>>have revised my own ideas about the initial infection if you assume the
>>following sequence of events:
> 
> THAT's the kind of thinking I like to see Derek! Keep trying...

Why thank you.  I thought it was pretty inspired logic myself.  Satisfies 
nearly everyones conditions on Virus.

Derek Stanley



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #212
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