Subj: Traveller-digest V1999 #1535
Date: 12/20/99 8:29:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
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Traveller-digest Monday, December 20 1999 Volume 1999 : Number 1535
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.
The following topics are covered in this digest:
Re: Re Early TNE
Re: the north american union
Re: Marooned (MegaT)
Re: Thunder Child (was re: They're coming (again))
Re: Why you need streetwise...
Re: the north american union
Re: [OT] Firearms Discussions
Re: Why you need streetwise...
Asteroid Mining (Was: Re: Mars exploration)
Re: Asteroid Mining (Was: Re: Mars exploration)
Re: the north american union
No-Firearms Situations
OT
Re: (Way OT and possible Flamebait)...
Re: Gun Control
Re: technology advances
Re: the north american union
United States
War of 1812 (now w/ ObTrav!)
Re: Wild Geese, a mercenary ticket
Re: War of 1812 (now w/ ObTrav!)
RE: the north american union
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:29:21 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn"
Subject: Re: Re Early TNE
On 19 Dec 99, at 18:39, eris@pcola.gulf.net wrote:
> On 12/20/99 at 12:12 AM, "Nick Bradbeer" said:
>
> >>>I remember that BL's techbook layout was easier for me to follow than
> >>>FF&S when it finally shipped...
>
> >>Absolutely. That's sort of why I thought it would have been after FFS,
> >>improved from the experience and all.
>
> >I think it was mainly because BL was only concerned with ships, so they
> >worked it though step by step.
>
> Yes, that's true too. It does make it easier to follow.
>
> >It could have been done better, but it would probably have been a bigger
> >book.
I got hold of BL before FFS and found it (BL) to be quite hard to
follow. When I finally got FFS I was very pleased to find it much
easier to use. I found having each component in its own chapter very
useful, as I could do things in any order I liked. However the page
flipping is a little annoying.
- --
Rupert Boleyn
Wellington, New Zealand
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:29:21 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn"
Subject: Re: the north american union
On 20 Dec 99, at 20:16, Frank Pitt wrote:
>
>
> > >Remember the War of 1812? The USA _lost_. It will
> > >again!
> >
> > The Museum at West Point disagrees, or at least they put a better
> > spin
> > on it.
> > The section on the War of 1812 starts off, "At best, this war could be
> > called a draw."
>
> Well, they would, wouldn't they ?
>
> Seeing as the US instigated the war, invaded Canada, got thrown out again,
> and a Brit force then ravaged up and down the east coast unchecked,
> sacking Washington twice, before finally being stopped at New Orleans
> after peace had been declared, I'd call it a loss for the US.
>
> The only bright points for the US is that some of their ships did better
> than anyone could have expected against the Royal Navy, and the New York
> Militia went home, citing that using militia to invade another country was
> a gross abuse of the founding documents of the country, which it was.
>
> Of course, they only did this after it became obvious they weren't going
> to get much loot & pillage, but still...
>
> What was that about a "well-regulated militia" ?
I dunno. The US Federal Government came out alright - they gained the
power to raise troops. Otherwise it was a draw, in that the peace
treaty set everything back to pre-war borders, etc. However the indians
lost fairly heavily (nothing new there).
- --
Rupert Boleyn
Wellington, New Zealand
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:29:21 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn"
Subject: Re: Marooned (MegaT)
On 19 Dec 99, at 23:40, Richard Martin wrote:
> Hmmm.. The Inupiaq have been successfully hunting Polar Bears with
> 30-06 for many years, and spears or bows before that.... It is not the
> caliber but the ability to hit the bear at the right place. Another
> native, a Brother in Law of mine, frequently hunts bears with a .357 mag
> revolver. A friend who once went hunting Kodiak brown bears with a .458
> Win Mag failed to stop one charging after placing 5 rounds in it. His
> hunting partner literally dropped the beast at his feet with several
> additional rounds from a .375 H&H. This guy was an experienced hunter, of
> both wildlife and people (3 term Vietnam vet with 101st, tunnel rat,
> etc...), but the first shot did not score the right hit. Makes you
> wonder....
That's why I was advocating a .338 (at least) - it was for defense, not
hunting. When arming yourself for defense you're generally going to
want somthing a bit bigger than you'd use to hunt the same thing with.
When hunting you get to choose the shot, when being hunted they do.
- --
Rupert Boleyn
Wellington, New Zealand
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 1999 00:29:21 +1300
From: "Rupert Boleyn"
Subject: Re: Thunder Child (was re: They're coming (again))
On 20 Dec 99, at 22:59, Frank Pitt wrote:
> > > That is, assuming they could be crewed and put to sea on time. The
> > > whole idea of 24-hour readiness for military units not in hostile
> > > terrain
> didn't
> > > catch on until much later.
> >
> > It still hasn't caught on everywhere. I shudder to think how long it'd
> > take some of our units to be combat ready.
>
> Hah !
>
> That remins me of a "special mission" I got sent on when in the RNZAF.
>
> Remember when "Colonel" Rambuka took over Fiji ?
All too well. I was in basic training at the time, and if Lange had
actually lost his mind we'd have been in right after the RRF. Given the
relative size of our RRF (plus the rest) and the Fijian army we were
rather happy when nothing eventuated.
- --
Rupert Boleyn
Wellington, New Zealand
A pessimist is an optimist with a sense of history.
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:05:48 +0100
From: Jens Rydholm
Subject: Re: Why you need streetwise...
Mark Urbin wrote:
> Has anyone put their players in a "Enter the Dragon" type situation?
> i.e. No firearms, no lasers.
> Strict hand-to-hand and limited melee weapons?
I've had the PCs making a run for it from a hotel near a starport,
having members of a local gang chasing them. The laws of the area
stopped them from bringing their weapons to the hotel, so they had no
guns with them. Very entertaining action scene, since the players had to
think in order to succeed.
"I dodge around the corner and look for something to hide behind. When
they rush past me, I'll jump out and go the other way."
> hmmm...I guess most bar fights count.
In that case, I think the answer for most of us would be YES! :-)
/Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:19:09 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt
Subject: Re: the north american union
At 01:53 AM 12/20/99 EST, you wrote:
>In a message dated 12/19/99 7:40:15 PM Pacific Standard Time,
>eclipse@ultranet.com writes:
>
><< The Museum at West Point disagrees, or at least they put a better spin
> on it.
> The section on the War of 1812 starts off, "At best, this war could be
> called a draw." >>
>
>I agree. Our regulars could go toe to toe with the Grenadier Guards.
>Unfortunately, our army was mostly militia, and militia that was horrid to
>boot...:-(
>
The Battle of Montreal pretty much under-lines that the US forces
were poorly trained and led by inexperienced officers.
--Michel
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ICQ # 31172292
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 13:28:59 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav
Subject: Re: [OT] Firearms Discussions
On Mon, 20 Dec 1999, Frank Pitt wrote:
>So the more reactionary of us went out got some tee-shirts printed saying
>"Land Rights for Gay Whales" with an appropriate picture of very camp beached
>whale.
>
>It's amazing how many people thought we were serious....
Here in Norway a popular t-shirt reads "Intelligent people, need intelligent
food. Kill the whales'. It is accompanied by a viking standing atop a dead
whale. My cousine wore this t-shirt while attending UCSB and got into trouble
more than once.
As you may or may not know, Norway is still hunting whales.
OBTrav: A low-tech world gets incorperated into the Imperium, who tells
the natives that they have to stop killing those big sea mammals,
cause their sentient. The locals refuse stating that it is their
source of food and a long standing tradition. The characters
are approached by a patron.
1. He is a local out to hire the group to protect local hunting
vessel from the harasment of off world sentient-rights-groups
demonstrating as the sesonal hunt begins.
2. She is a member of a extrem sentient-rights-group that
wants to hire the group to sabotage the hunting vessels
and the proecessing plants.
3. She is a reporter needing bodyguards to do a story about
the hunting. She might be pro- or against it and will
make a very biased story. Will the group help her?
Just an idea :-)
Tommy Grav
- -------------------------------------------------------------
tommy.grav@astro.uio.no http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
Institute of Astrophysics, UiO, No
IMTU tn++t4+tg+ ru+ge++ !3i jt+au+st+ls hi++dr-so++zh-sy-sw++
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:33:50 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt
Subject: Re: Why you need streetwise...
At 01:05 PM 12/20/99 +0100, you wrote:
>Mark Urbin wrote:
>> Has anyone put their players in a "Enter the Dragon" type situation?
>> i.e. No firearms, no lasers.
>> Strict hand-to-hand and limited melee weapons?
>
>I've had the PCs making a run for it from a hotel near a starport,
>having members of a local gang chasing them. The laws of the area
>stopped them from bringing their weapons to the hotel, so they had no
>guns with them. Very entertaining action scene, since the players had to
>think in order to succeed.
>
>"I dodge around the corner and look for something to hide behind. When
>they rush past me, I'll jump out and go the other way."
>
Hi, Jens!
I count the odds of persecution for killing someone (legality of
action to be debated in court) as (Law Level + 1) x2 on 2d. It takes Law
Level dice in weeks to get a trial, with a chance equivalent to law level on
2d that you'll be in house arrest or worse until the trial.
My players would generally *rather* use brawling and a set of
nuchaku or a tonfa to put someone down rather than a handgun.... You can
stop damaging them far more easily and are less likely to kill someone on "a
really good roll" with one hit. Fewer things screw up the odds of making
the bank payments faster than getting placed in jail for 54 weeks while
awaiting trial so that you don't skip the planet.
--Michel
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Michel R. Vaillancourt misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
ICQ # 31172292
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NET-City Communications....
Providing "Solutions for the Common Company"
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 04:54:28 -0800
From: "Jason T. Barnabas"
Subject: Asteroid Mining (Was: Re: Mars exploration)
wrote:
> You have a good memory. Best of the Journal-Volume 1 (1979) Has the
> article "Mining the Asteroids" that you remember. Also, the "Beltsrike"
> module from the early 80's has a lot of data and detail. The GDW board
game
> "Belter" came out about the same time as Traveller, and although not set
in
> the official universe, was a hoot to play, if kind of heavy on
bookkeeping.
> For hard data on asteroid mining, I can recommend a visit to the
> Permanent.com website. It is a great space resource development source.
All
> of the angles and details get covered, and there are links to a lot of
other
> excellent sites.
Thank you Ken, www.permanent.com is an excellent web
site for Real Life(tm) asteroid mining information. Would
whoever else posted in response to my query please
repost that URL with the more RPGable stuff? I seem to
have lost the original post.
Thanks,
- --
Jason
___________________________________________
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__________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:35:35 -0400
From: Michel Vaillancourt
Subject: Re: Asteroid Mining (Was: Re: Mars exploration)
At 04:54 AM 12/20/99 -0800, you wrote:
>Thank you Ken, www.permanent.com is an excellent web
>site for Real Life(tm) asteroid mining information. Would
>whoever else posted in response to my query please
>repost that URL with the more RPGable stuff? I seem to
>have lost the original post.
>
Hi, Jason!
I think that might have been me. URL is in my .SIG.... Pick the
[House Rules] button, and its at the bottom of the page. Let me know what
you think. I have done a couple of play-tests with it and it seems to work
fairly well from both "pay the bills" and actually role-playing
opportunities perspectives. Let me know what you think.
--Michel
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Michel R. Vaillancourt misha@atlantic-online.ns.ca
ICQ # 31172292
"Reality Error in Progress....
....Do Not Adjust Your Penguin"
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:00:46 -0500
From: "DaveShayne"
Subject: Re: the north american union
>Date: Sun, 19 Dec 1999 00:37:45 -0800 (PST)
>From: Kyle Schuant
>Subject: the north american union
>
>It has been written:
>>>Actually, how the Union occurs is unstated as it's
>not the focus of the
>game. However, i figure the Canadians got so sick of
>hearing us Yanks
>bellyache about how awful our Presidents are that they
>offered us aUnion.>>
>
>I refer people to my earlier posts mentioning the
>eventual liberation of the americas by the British
>Commonwealth. THAT is how the Union occurs:)
>
>Remember the War of 1812? The USA _lost_. It will
>again!
True we didn't suceed at the land grab. And we lost all
of the battles except the last one (the battle of New
Orleans - fought 2 weeks after the peace treaty was
signed.) But we got two very important concessions
from the Brits: 1) The british agreed to stop press ganging
american sailors into the royal navy, and 2) The British
stopped supporting the Indian tribes to the west of the
US ( a significant concession in terms of US expansion.)
I supose you could say, in modern terms, the US lost the
war but won the peace.
Ob Trav - What are the different interpretations of the
Frontier wars in history texts from the various polities
involved? Do historians in the Spinward Marches hold
different opinons of the causes and results than
historians from Core? Same Questions for the Solomani
Rim war and the Pacification Campaigns.
David Shayne
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Old version - Build a better mousetrap and
the world will beat a path to your door.
New version - Build a better mousetrap and
some @$*% will build a better mouse.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 08:40:33 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty"
Subject: No-Firearms Situations
>
>Has anyone put their players in a "Enter the Dragon" type situation? i.e.
>No firearms, no lasers.
>Strict hand-to-hand and limited melee weapons?
>
>hmmm...I guess most bar fights count.
>
It happens occasionally. On Zila, in the Traveller Adventure, for example.
We were so intimidated by the Law level that we didn't even try to get a
body pistol through. Other high-law worlds and the occasional no-guns
Highport.
And of course (plug alert!) the action in The Khiidkar Incident takes place
almost entirely in the absence of firearms.
It's fun sometimes when the gun-nut realises that he doesn't have Brawling
and is finally in a fight where HE's the wimpoid. Or when someone pulls a
body pistol and everyone drools enviously.....
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:01:08 EST
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: OT
<< No offence to our army men (both of you) but it would be
something of a cake-walk for the U.S. to take over Canada. >>
IIRC, the last time we invaded Canada we got our heads handed to us (War of
1812). I don't count that Fenian thing in the 1800s, as that was not carried
out by the US government.
<< Apparently plans have been drawn up on both sides of the border for just
such
an eventuality. >>
Dunno about the Canadian side, but I would be surprised if there wasn't a
plan in a dusty file in the pentagon somewhere on what to do if Canada is
taken over by some hideously hostile enemy. And, of course, there is "Plan
Crimson" or whatever it was called from the 1930s.
<< Do
I remeber correctly that there is an American founding document (I don't
think the constitution itself, but soemthing related) that specifically
allows for Canadian provinces to becomes states? >>
Not that I know of -- beyond the provisions for territories becoming states,
but that's in the constitution.
LKW
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 06:40:26 -0800
From: "Jason T. Barnabas"
Subject: Re: (Way OT and possible Flamebait)...
The Roc wrote:
> From: Kyle Schuant
> > I'm always confused by caucasians' inability to tell
> > one asian race from another: usually, I get it about
> > right (though some chinese look korean).
>
> Okay, I have to ask this after hearing that. I am a typical white
> anglosaxon Aussie male. I am one of those people you mention that cannot
> distinguish a Japanese from a Korean from a Chinese. I know ALL my
friends
> have the same problem, but I must say, my family and I have hosted 18
> Japanese students between the ages of 10 (one boy only), and 15 to 22
years
> of age, both male and female over the last 6 years, with stays from 1-week
> to 5-weeks.
>
> Of ALL 18 of these Japanese students, not one could tell the difference
> between the Chinese and Japanese that worked in the local Sushi Train
> restaurant. Add to this their friends hosted by other families that we
> often had outings with and that makes 36+ students that couldn't tell, and
> add to this the adult teacher Escorts that couldn't tell (in fact, one TE
I
> have become close to and correspond with regularly, told me flatly that he
> couldn't tell a Korean, Chinese, or Japanese from each other when I once
> asked that question) and you are starting to get a higher demographic
still.
>
> So, what I'm asking is, are you extremely aware of such racial differences
> in appearance to those Asian races, to be able to tell such things, and
are
> all those Japanese we dealt with ordinary, or are all those Japanese just
> ignorant of something common and you are normal?
>
> I know for myself, that I have Irish, Scottish, and English friends, blond
> haired and blue eyed, that if you didn't listen to their last names
(Meehan,
> Gilmour, etc.), don't look particularly Irish, Scottish, or English over a
> blond hairer, blue eyed German friend (Kurtt) that I also know well? In
> fact, put two of them together and the German bloke and they look like
> brothers!! How do you tell? What's the secret?
I suspect that there are some folks who notice such
differences more easily than others. Until recently, I have
not been around many asians, yet with my limited
experience (TV mostly), I can usually distinguish between
Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Viet Namese, and Other
Orientals. I can also distinguish between many different
"Native" American groups. I get most of them right (or
very close - tribal afinity wise). I can even usually tell the
difference in an Englishman, a Scott, an Irishman and a
German.
I suspect that this ability is part of the general pattern
recognition ability that some folks have and others don't.
I see patterns in almost everything.
- --
Jason
___________________________________________
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:55:16 -0500
From: "David L. Pulver"
Subject: Re: Gun Control
Does a "Grandfather clause" mean I can keep my Droyne distintegrator?
_____________________________________________________________________
David L. Pulver -- Senior Staff Writer and Assistant Line Editor,
Guardians Of Order Incorporated
Big Eyes, Small Mouth * Sailor Moon * Dominion Tank Police * Tenchi Muyo! RPG
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------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 09:55:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Kenji Schwarz
Subject: Re: technology advances
On Mon, 20 Dec 1999, Frank Pitt wrote:
> Please, children (a term I use advisedly, as I remeber seeing Woodstiock on
> the evening news), this is a PG13 list and while I'd dearly like to discuss
> the use of grav plates in suspension techniques, doing so might cause moral
> umbrage. Or something.
Which reminds me, the Spofulams never did answer my question: is a meson
micro-explosion more of a "thuddy" or a "stingy" thing???
Kenji
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:27:34 EST
From: Sethkimmel@aol.com
Subject: Re: the north american union
In a message dated 12/20/99 4:23:04 AM Pacific Standard Time,
misha@empire.atlantic-online.ns.ca writes:
<< The Battle of Montreal pretty much under-lines that the US forces
were poorly trained and led by inexperienced officers.
>>
Winfield Scott would ague that his brigade of regulars was an exception...
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:33:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert Conley
Subject: United States
Does anybody have any idea what form the United States is in 1100
imperial. What happened to the states? What would the ethnic population
look like.
I would figure that the individual nations would continue as entities
under
the Terran Confederation. Much like the states did after 1789 under the
consitution.
But after the fall of the Terran Confederation and the formation of the
Rule of Man what happened to the US under the Terran Mercantile Community
and the Old Earth Union
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:38:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Charles Collin
Subject: War of 1812 (now w/ ObTrav!)
From what I've seen in documentaries and so on, the war of 1812 in North
America was a half-hearted battle between two forces that weren't really
all that interested. The British had to pull some of their forces out to
fight Napoleon, some Americans saw the chance to grab some under-defended
English territory, there were some nasty skirmishes and then the British
came back and retaliated. The initial American thrust was never really
pushed through or they could have done a lot more damage. Once again it
was a lack of political will that was the determinant. Likewise, the
British counter-attack wasn't exactly carried through to the fullest or
they could have really hurt the states.
The part I can't understand was that with the British closing on
Washington, the minister of war just kept saying to the president of the
time that "they'll never go for the Capital". He had no reason for this
assertion, and the president didn't push him on it. When the British got
there, no one tried to stop them. IIRC, they went up to another American
city, there met some serious resistance, and therefore decided to call it
off. (All from memory, feel free to correct)
Having said that, I think the Canadian/British side clearly won, having
sacked the capital and all. I just don't see it as a particularly
glorious moment in our military history (assuming there can be glory in
war at all), as we were basically allowed to walk in. Mind you, folks in
Halifax see it differently. They seem quite proud that the local
university was founded with money looted from the US in that war, and that
the local government house is the longest standing leader's residence in
NA because "the White House would have been, but we burned it down in
1812." (nearly direct quote from Halifax tourist web-site). Silliness,
IMHO.
Okay, enough of this OT stuff. Here's an ObTrav: Are there any small
border states of the Imperium that have a similar history with them? Is
there a moderately long-lasting Vargr band that once sacked Regina long
ago and still hails itself as the only ones to "successfully invade the
Marches"? Or better yet, in the early history of the Imperium, did anyone
take what is now Capital, and holds that as a proud moment in their
military history?
Charles C. (aka Chuck the Canuck)
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:42:26 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: Wild Geese, a mercenary ticket
The very best book on mercs has got to be "Phule's Company" by Robert Asprin.
Plus it's already in a sci-fi setting.
T
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:59:19 EST
From: Tascelt@aol.com
Subject: Re: War of 1812 (now w/ ObTrav!)
In a message dated 12/20/1999 7:35:44 AM Pacific Standard Time,
charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca writes:
<<
Having said that, I think the Canadian/British side clearly won, having
sacked the capital and all. >>
If that were true, then we here in the US would be part of Canada now. This
is one of real life's examples of how real war is not like "Axis & Allies".
Sacking the capitol does not mean you won the war. Both sides were not
disinterested as you suggest, it was more like both were unprepared. America
was a fledgling nation, not ready physically or financially to fight another
war and it had incompetant people sprinkled through the government. The
british wanted a real war but had over strung themselves.
Lack of political will had nothing to do with it, nor was it an american
chance to grab british territory. The brits started with the invasion and
then realized that Napoleon was going to be a tougher enemy than anticipated.
They could not fight two major wars and so they chose to take on the closer
enemy. The yanks saw the brit drawel and said fine, we'll follow up to
prevent future invasions.
This is off topic so I'll have to add, the brits used Vargr units during
their sacking of Washington. The yanks responded by forming a treaty with
the Yrggyyyagsytelo Aslan clan. ;-)
T
------------------------------
Date: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 10:20:19 -0600
From: "Moody, Danny M."
Subject: RE: the north american union
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sethkimmel@aol.com [mailto:Sethkimmel@aol.com]
>
> << The Museum at West Point disagrees, or at least they put a
> better spin
> on it.
> The section on the War of 1812 starts off, "At best, this
> war could be
> called a draw." >>
>
> I agree. Our regulars could go toe to toe with the Grenadier Guards.
> Unfortunately, our army was mostly militia, and militia that
> was horrid to
> boot...:-(
As has been stated before, the US definitely lost the 1812 war.
The British burned the White House and the Capitol.
We, unfortunately, rebuilt them.
After two wars, the score is tied at:
US: 1
UK: 1
-- vargr1 UPP-8D9B85 --
The three principle virtues of a good programmer | dmoody@bridge-dot-com
are Laziness, Impatience, and Hubris. | vargr1@jcn1-dot-com
** Omnia dicta fortiora, si dicta latina. **
------------------------------
End of Traveller-digest V1999 #1535
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